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03:12:19 * pikhq enjoys nomic recursion
03:12:51 <faxathisia> my idea with converting game of life into minesweeper and solving it worked btw
03:13:05 <faxathisia> but someone wrote a program that's hundreds of times faster just by using search and replace on the input
03:14:11 <oerjan> a game of nomic inside a game of nomic
03:14:23 <pikhq> More than just that.
03:14:43 <pikhq> Agora's Child is a member of Agora. . . I'm trying to make it so that Agora is a member of Agora's Child.
03:15:15 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic
03:16:08 <faxathisia> if I knew about this .. things would have been better
03:18:09 <pikhq> And yes, I am insane.
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03:19:46 <Paro> Please say "Hello, World!"
03:20:48 <Paro> Please say "Hello, World!" in English
03:21:19 <pikhq> Please say "Hello, world!" in Japanese!
03:22:13 * Paro is filled with sorrow.
03:26:15 <oerjan> Smil til verden og verden smiler til deg
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03:27:19 <faxathisia> EgoBot: !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹ŒŽ‘’“”•–—˜™š›œžŸ ¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬ ®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ
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08:47:09 <faxathisia> there aren't enough good subturing languages!
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10:03:36 <dbc> It's easy to make one. You just put a rigid and moderately low storage limit on any Turing-complete language. Yawn.
10:04:14 <faxathisia> things like regex, SQL, The Haskell Type System
10:04:31 <faxathisia> (I really don't know that many interesting subturing languages)
10:04:45 <dbc> HTML, too.
10:04:57 <faxathisia> all capable of solving some interesting problems
10:05:00 <dbc> Context-sensitive grammars.
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10:13:41 <faxathisia> I have to find something to do with Context-sensitive grammars
10:13:55 <faxathisia> because I haven't really much intuition about what they're capable of at all
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14:17:15 <RodgerTheGreat> are there any small sets of these "subturing" languages faxathisia was speaking of that are together TC?
14:22:09 <oerjan> i don't know about those he mentioned
14:22:37 <oerjan> but if you take a turing-complete language and split it up into small pieces that are each not TC...
14:22:54 <oerjan> like just K and just S from combinatory logic...
14:23:36 <oerjan> or split away [] from brainfuck...
14:24:13 <RodgerTheGreat> creating a language for the purpose of this idea doesn't really accomplish much
14:25:29 <oerjan> well there are undecidable type systems for one thing
14:27:35 <oerjan> apparently you cannot combine haskell-like type systems with subtyping without making the result undecidable, which i think usually is shown by finding TC sub-problems
14:33:19 <oerjan> actually ocaml manages somewhat, i think you may need so-called higher rank polymorphism as well
14:36:59 <oerjan> hm i just thought of one thing: while all regex languages are context-free, regex languages are closed under complement but not context-free ones
14:38:10 <oerjan> so if you combine the features, the result is TC
14:39:11 <oerjan> (as mentioned here a while ago, it is undecidable whether a CF language includes _all_ strings of the alphabet)
14:58:22 <oerjan> no way of looping, they say
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16:21:00 <GregorR> I would hope that SQL is intentionally sub-TC
16:21:37 <oerjan> that's the impression i got
16:22:13 <GregorR> Geeze, raggin' on Haskell.
16:22:50 <GregorR> Geeze, raggin' on logic and reason.
16:23:10 <GregorR> Really though, SQL is fine for its purpose :P
16:23:16 <faxathisia> well I only wrote square root and game of life yet
16:23:24 <faxathisia> I was going to do a raytracer but I didn't bother yet
16:23:31 <GregorR> And unlike many other special purpose languages, it hasn't escaped its niche to become a crapsy general purpose language.
16:24:22 <faxathisia> I want more subturing languages to try :(
16:24:40 <GregorR> Erm, are you saying you wrote the game of life in SQL? >_O
16:24:54 <GregorR> I assume it's a query that's called repetitively?
16:24:58 <faxathisia> and I thought it came out really nicely!
16:25:16 <faxathisia> yeah there is a query which runs a single iteration
16:25:29 <oerjan> you could try Epigram or Agda >:)
16:25:33 <GregorR> OK, that makes more sense :P
16:25:41 <GregorR> Since SQL is in fact not TC, and the game of life is :P
16:26:00 <faxathisia> (It doesnt' work in sqlite but you can split it in two to use sqlite)
16:26:33 <faxathisia> well I couldn't get xemacs to work so I don't think I can use epigram here
16:27:38 <oerjan> seeing as those languages are probably _more_ complicated than many that are TC
16:28:38 <GregorR> Come now, pushdown automata aren't more complicated than Turing machines.
16:28:54 <oerjan> well i guess many people in this channel wouldn't be...
16:29:09 <oerjan> GregorR: i was referring to epigram and agda
16:29:21 <GregorR> Ahhh, specific choices, zomg
16:29:38 <oerjan> or dependently typed languages in general
16:30:01 <oerjan> the dependency almost forces a terminating language, iiuc
16:30:11 <oerjan> since _types_ have to be terminating
16:31:39 <oerjan> (disclosure: i haven't used any of them)
16:32:10 <faxathisia> I like what i've seen of Coq.. the typechecking algorithm asks you for help!
16:34:03 <oerjan> hm i recall trying to get Coq started but something was wrong with the UI that made me annoyed enough to uninstall it.
16:34:26 <faxathisia> You can use Proof General mode in emacs
16:34:34 <faxathisia> although some people are allergic to emacs or something
16:34:51 <oerjan> *cough*, *cack*, *aackpthoo*
16:36:01 <faxathisia> what's the shortest regex to match a set of strings is a decidable problems isn't it?
16:37:10 <oerjan> in principle, since you can exhaustively test them...
16:39:52 <RodgerTheGreat> the SQL language allows for looping via recursion, but it intentionally tries to detect recursion and halt
16:40:10 <oerjan> and you can decide whether two regular expressions match the same set
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21:41:30 <Jontte> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/261186
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