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02:55:50 <MrArmadillo> Someone please find my IP and display it here in the channel.
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03:11:06 <Bigcheese> I don't think you can connect to freenode with ipv6
03:26:14 <pikhq> Too bad ISPs hate us all, and won't do 10BASE-T to the home.
03:26:26 <pikhq> (much less some nice fiber)
03:27:10 <Bigcheese> 10BASE-T to the home would suck... unless they where under 100m from your house
03:27:21 <pikhq> Bigcheese: You know what I mean.
03:27:44 <Bigcheese> 10mb isn't really all that great anyway
03:28:01 <Bigcheese> can already do that with good dsl or cable
03:28:58 <pikhq> Colorado Springs, CO.
03:29:05 <pikhq> 5 MBs down, 512K up.
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11:07:35 <faxathisia> well maybe interpreter is the wrong word but it runs the thing
11:09:54 <faxathisia> (example use http://rafb.net/p/4VYh4b29.txt )
11:12:28 <faxathisia> should add that to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran ?
11:24:47 <Sabskm> EGOBOT! SPEAK TO MEEEEE!
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11:59:35 <oklopol> it's so sad Sabskm is gone :<
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13:13:20 <oklopol> yes, yes, i'm referring to the consonant cluster, you rarely see that nice ones
13:13:26 <oklopol> except for bsmnt of course
13:14:01 <Slereah> Sabskm derives from egyptian.
13:14:17 <Slereah> And since I don't know most of the vowels involved, that's that.
13:15:05 <oklopol> i was not being sarcastic, and you know egyptian?
13:16:27 <Slereah> Just browsed some egyptian grammar.
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18:25:25 <faxathisia> Isn't there a turing-incomplete catagory in the wiki?
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19:19:56 <oerjan> faxathisia: finite automaton and pushdown automaton are included in turing-incomplete, but there is no supercategory
19:20:39 <faxathisia> I mean.. ones which are not turing complete
19:20:59 <faxathisia> like regex, SQL, Haskell type system, etc
19:21:10 <faxathisia> (although those aren't esoteric ones I suppose)
19:21:11 <oerjan> i understand. it would be a supercategory of both FSA and PDA
19:21:59 <oerjan> a category that includes the others
19:22:19 <oerjan> in the hierarchical sense, not the category theory sense
19:22:28 <faxathisia> I'm sorry I totally misread what you first said
19:23:00 <lament> heeh, i wonder if they have categories on the category theory wiki
19:25:46 <oerjan> Category: Computational class only has FSA, PDA, TC and unknown class
19:27:37 <oerjan> aha, Esolang:Categorization contains uncomputable but it's not included in the supercategory
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20:06:08 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p163633625.txt <<< i wonder if i'll get a tc system by adding these retarded random instructions for long enough :P
20:07:53 <oklopol> that's the point, at least once that's ready, and has more instructions than any language ever.
20:08:02 <oklopol> (it's not like it's hard making more of those...)
20:08:43 <oklopol> c - outputs "the following is a quine" + source code in ascii <<< i'm very proud of this one
20:11:31 <oerjan> what about adding a colon and space after quine?
20:11:35 <oklopol> i should write this in python or something, english gets a bit clumsy when there's no idea behind the instructions.
20:11:56 * faxathisia cannot stop laughing at "baby you make me sing"
20:11:57 <oklopol> i left that out on purpose.
20:12:49 <oklopol> it'd be interesting if there was a program that constantly tried to get something tc out of my instructions, and when it found it, it'd make a bling of some sort
20:13:40 <oklopol> so i could just add and add, and when it found tcness, i could check if it's non trivial enough to leave in, or do i have to add "and after then, output 'btw this is instruction that makes the language tc '"
20:14:11 <faxathisia> is turing complete often a goal for language design ?
20:14:31 <faxathisia> I think that turing complete is a good thing to avoid, as well!
20:14:52 <oklopol> although i guess anything can be made interesting
20:15:05 <oklopol> ihope: you mentioned pens for stick bombs a few months ago right?
20:15:59 <oklopol> i tried making a basic popsicle stick bomb with a pen in the middle... the stick crack instantly
20:16:35 <oklopol> also, using a harder material than those sticks does not allow for any trivial bomb structure
20:17:03 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure there's *some* bomb-tc structure for any hardness, though.
20:17:23 <oklopol> not bomb tc, more like bomb fsa
20:17:41 <oklopol> since you can't make an infinitely exploding bomb ofc
20:18:20 <oklopol> it took me a while to come up with a structure you can extend arbitrarily, but now that i found it, i have a new hobby :P
20:18:38 <oklopol> been making unstable stick frames all day!
20:18:55 <oerjan> infinitely exploding bombs require strange matter...
20:19:32 <oklopol> hmm, indeed, just as well as you can use tc for an asm, you could use it for stick bombs.
20:19:50 <oklopol> although i guess it'll only make sense if there's at least *some* rebuilding going on
20:20:15 <oklopol> if there's just a continuous explosion, i don't really see a possibility for computation
20:23:52 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: i think you should drop those plans
20:24:48 <oerjan> i am just leaping to the natural conclusion given the current conversation + your nick :D
20:25:23 * oklopol contemplates killing everyone in his school with a massive stick bomb... twice
20:26:03 <oklopol> not that i consider myself having a school really
20:26:15 <oklopol> since i have... 0 lessons a week there
20:26:23 <bsmntbombdood> i was thinking that the performance of past school shootings have been rather dismal
20:27:38 <oklopol> that seems to be the general consensus
20:31:21 <ihope> oklopol: a Turing machine where all symbol transitions go into a "lower" symbol is Turing-complete.
20:32:21 <ihope> Represent a cell as two cells. 00 means 0, 01 means 1, 11 means "ignore this cell". Except, hmm...
20:32:32 <ihope> You can delete cells but you can't add them.
20:33:02 <ihope> You can't turn 11 into 00 or 01.
20:33:20 <ihope> I guess 10 could somehow mean to add an additional cell.
20:33:40 <ihope> Or you could just move everything over, which is easy-ish.
20:34:02 <oerjan> well any finite set of cells could only be changed a finite number of times
20:34:06 <oklopol> i mean, easy to visualize that it's *possible*
20:34:13 <ihope> Have an end-of-tape marker. When you want to turn 1 into 0, copy it all over.
20:34:38 <oklopol> or you could simulate a tag system
20:34:40 <ihope> Slow as glass, but eh.
20:34:48 <ihope> Oh, tag systems, yeah.
20:35:05 * ihope ponders a Grand Unified Programming Language
20:35:45 <ihope> A programming language that any other programming language can trivially be compiled into!
20:35:58 <ihope> Though I guess we need to define "programming language".
20:36:03 <oklopol> i can't really think of any way to do any computation in stick bombs
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20:37:01 <oklopol> hmm... wonder if you could have a system with just multiple tape heads, and just destructive 0->1 transitions...
20:37:33 <ihope> Represent the bomb as a directed graph where the nodes are gates that can send output along each line once.
20:37:58 <oklopol> and have some boolean operations at nodes?
20:38:23 <oklopol> and then just as long a sequence as can possibly be used... that's definately
20:38:32 <oklopol> now how can you make a port...
20:38:40 <ihope> The time gate: inputs are A and B, output is X. If you get an input along A, send output on X. If you get an input along B then A, do not sent output on X.
20:39:15 <ihope> Realize that and the world will be in the palm of your hands. Probably.
20:39:19 <oklopol> so B just destroys, A continues the chain reaction onto x
20:39:56 <ihope> You also need an AND and an OR, which should be easy.
20:39:59 <oklopol> that's basically a... what's that gizmo called xD
20:40:16 <oklopol> you can make and and or using that
20:41:00 <ihope> s/ao/so/, of course.
20:41:01 <oklopol> but i'm thinking it can simulate one given perfectly timed actionz
20:41:14 <ihope> A transistor is pretty much an AND or an AND NOT gate.
20:42:13 <ihope> The idea behind the time gate is that you can represent a value with two lines: if you find it's 0, set off the 0 line; if you find it's 1, set off the 1 line.
20:42:31 <ihope> I'm sure the gate does something useful with this. :-P
20:43:06 <ihope> A transistor doesn't care which order the voltages come in, does it?
20:43:23 <ihope> One on input then one on control is just as good as one on control then one on input.
20:43:39 <oklopol> well, i think more like they have to com at the same time
20:43:55 <oklopol> i'm not saying it's the exact same
20:44:11 <oklopol> i'm saying you can do the and and or ports the same way as with transistors
20:44:53 <ihope> I guess this time gate is really a NOT gate that waits a while.
20:45:02 <oklopol> ...or not, actually... i feel there is an isomorphism, but it's not trivial enough i could actually see what it is
20:45:50 <ihope> There might be. The time gate has a state: given that A and B are both set off, you can't tell whether X is set off.
20:46:49 <oklopol> hmm... i don't have enough sticks to try anything interesting
20:47:06 <ihope> I think NOT is really unnecessary; you can do the same thing with separate lines for 0 and 1.
20:47:17 <ihope> I'd DCC my sticks to you, if that were possible.
20:47:23 <ihope> I think I have plenty.
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20:48:16 <oklopol> you need 4 sticks for a sticksize*sticksize cell
20:48:30 <oklopol> plus 1 extra @ each termination point
20:49:13 <oklopol> and have you made anything with them=
20:49:22 <ihope> They are currently not in a "made" form.
20:49:29 <ihope> I have made stuff with them, though.
20:49:37 <oklopol> so you have lots of ice cream?= :)
20:49:50 <ihope> I bought them at a craft store. :-)
20:50:09 <oklopol> hmm... then i don't know what you mean by "\"made\" form"
20:50:28 <ihope> Now, we all know that the most important tool in bomb building is a heavy book. :-)
20:50:39 <ihope> I made stuff with them, then un-made it and put the sticks back in the box.
20:50:53 <oklopol> what's the biggest you've made?
20:51:27 <oklopol> i just use my hands, have so little sticks i didn't exactly need any help making a full bomb
20:51:30 <ihope> I've made a bomb with about 6 segments, each a stick long.
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20:51:49 <oklopol> that was like a 3-minute job
20:52:08 <oklopol> also, i seem to need a bigger question mark button
20:52:27 <ihope> We could pastebin our designs, sort of.
20:53:05 <ihope> Are you using the overlapping HH for your segmented bombs?
20:53:14 <oklopol> mine is what tim fort uses, i think, copied the rectangular look, and the rest was pretty obvious
20:54:06 <oklopol> i also made something using an x or some sort, but it's harder to make, and uses just as many sticks; and much less stable
20:54:44 <oklopol> i also tried to make the 4-stick form extendable, but it doesn't work.
20:55:14 <ihope> I think I've pondered that.
20:56:21 <ihope> Oh, that's an interesting terminator.
20:56:49 <ihope> It's the slash-V part of the four-stick bomb.
20:58:11 <ihope> That can act as a terminator for the segmented bomb. It has three sticks, which is the minimum.
20:58:51 <ihope> Except, of course, for the single stick, which can also act as a terminator but can't attach to itself.
20:59:59 <oklopol> ah, terminator for a sequence of rectangles, not a terminator for an explosion :)
21:00:37 <oklopol> but indeed, that is a nice terminator
21:00:38 <ihope> A book is a terminator for an explosion. :-)
21:00:58 <ihope> And since we're inventing terminology, I think I'll call the HH a bridge.
21:01:01 <oklopol> hmm, indeed... perhaps you could make an explosion make a book fall?
21:01:19 <ihope> Sounds easy enough. You just need sticks that are sturdy enough to hold up a book.
21:01:29 <oklopol> i guess that's feasible, since i thought of it as a bridge too, at some point
21:01:56 <oklopol> (the term came from my 3*1 one with a pen in the middle... it was kinda brigey)
21:02:40 <oklopol> you could have bigger sticks at the book felling part
21:02:45 <ihope> And I'll also call this whole thing the DUD paradigm: one stick is pushed down, one is pushed up, one is pushed down.
21:03:19 <oklopol> yeah, of the other way around
21:07:04 <ihope> "DUD" is a word, so it's better. :-)
21:08:01 <oklopol> yeah, but isn't it a bit misleading?
21:08:52 <ihope> The fact that it's "dud"?
21:09:29 <oklopol> well, isn't dud something that does *not* explode?
21:10:21 <oerjan> try to find something with T and N instead :)
21:10:25 <oklopol> i can picture it now, you have two sets of 4 detonators, and a set of 8 detonators in the other end, to receive the result of a 4-bit multiplication!
21:14:01 <oklopol> ihope: have you built anything 3d?
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21:15:13 <oklopol> ihope: have you built anything 3d?
21:15:33 <oklopol> a cube can be built with a hook
21:16:28 <ihope> I've built something 3d with pencils and rubber bands :-P
21:16:46 <ihope> I guess calling it the TNT paradigm is pretty obvious.
21:17:20 <ihope> What should it stand for?
21:17:29 <ihope> Saying that the N is "negative" is easy.
21:18:13 <ihope> Maybe I should come up with a reason for calling it U2,3,5 :-P
21:22:34 <ihope> Oh. What's it mean?
21:22:49 <ihope> Ah, that's easy :-)
21:23:12 <ihope> Better than "tower" or "traverse" or "treason" or something.
21:23:23 <ihope> Or "topple". "Top", maybe.
21:23:35 <ihope> But top/negative doesn't make much sense.
21:23:55 <ihope> Työntö/nosto is better, I'm guessing.
21:23:57 <oklopol> anyhow, 3d with pens and rubber bands... the question is, did it explode?
21:24:15 <ihope> Well, maybe slightly.
21:24:15 <oklopol> sure, if you don't mind it's finnish and has an umlaut ;)
21:24:47 <oklopol> i actually took some rubber bands out and tried making a 3d one... but i'm pretty sure no one in the world is that handy.
21:24:58 <ihope> If we ever make a wiki, we could have {{tyonto}} be "työntö".
21:25:33 <ihope> It'd go well with my Goedel and Schroedinger.
21:25:51 <ihope> So, shall we make a stick bomb wiki somewhere? :-)
21:26:39 <oklopol> my 3d-model was to have two basic rectangles, lift them up, and put a rubber band where pull is needed, and a stick where a push is needed... neither of those exactly makes it stable enough to stand on it's own...
21:27:28 <ihope> I think it's easy enough to build a cube with sticks and rubber bands.
21:27:33 <oklopol> we'll put it on the esolang wiki under "very finited state automata"
21:27:34 <ihope> You do the honors. :-P
21:27:50 <ihope> Oh, on Esolang? How mundane.
21:27:56 <ihope> And yet how practical.
21:28:09 <oklopol> you saying it'd be easy to make a cube bomb? :O
21:28:21 <ihope> I didn't say a bomb. :-)
21:28:39 <oklopol> then it's incredibly simple :)
21:28:43 <ihope> I guess you could just take a bomb and use it as one of the faces, though :-P
21:28:58 <oklopol> but it won't fully detonate.
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21:29:49 <oklopol> have you tried putting two one-stick-terminated ..tnt's together?
21:30:01 <oklopol> they sometimes blow up, but usually not.
21:30:23 <ihope> You mean stick terminator, HH, HH, stick terminator?
21:30:27 <oklopol> it's interesting, actually, to make a long chaing, and just make them explode one by one
21:30:52 <oklopol> and an HH with the other termination shared with the first one
21:31:05 <ihope> Term, HH, term, HH, term, then?
21:31:26 <oklopol> heh, i see the formal grammar is beginning to form ;)
21:32:21 <ihope> Next it'll be | HH | HH |.
21:32:22 <oklopol> hmm, could you pastebin the exact form of your thing somehow? i want to be sure we really have the same one, even though i'm fairly sure we do
21:32:40 <oklopol> then we realize a H never exists alone
21:32:56 <ihope> There are multiple ways to make a |H|H|.
21:33:22 <ihope> The H's interfaces could be on opposite sides, or they could be on the same side overlapping various ways.
21:33:39 <oklopol> yeah, but each of them is stable, to some extent
21:34:13 <oklopol> i tried them all before realizing the key to extendability is not to find the correct one of those... but to leave the terminator out.
21:34:42 <ihope> We need a machine that can churn out an |HHHHHHHHHHHHH| in fifteen seconds.
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21:35:14 <ihope> *chunk chunk chunk chunk chunk* *Pthththththththt!* "Darn it!"
21:35:18 <oklopol> wonder if they sell those...
21:35:39 <ihope> I think we'd have to build one, or use some other all-purpose machine. :-)
21:36:10 <ihope> You know, an obvious abbreviation would be something like |H2|.
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21:36:29 <oklopol> ...do we have any tc stick builders on the wiki?
21:36:48 <ihope> TC stick builders?
21:37:04 <oklopol> that would be, yes, but if you wanna extend that to other directions...
21:37:24 <oklopol> have you made anything but straight lines?
21:37:46 <ihope> Though of course 2 isn't shorter than H by much.
21:37:52 <ihope> What sort of 3*3 square?
21:38:03 <oklopol> hmm... actually i didn't finish it, it blew apart when i was adding the last corner
21:38:33 <ihope> Then you make it turn?
21:38:44 <oklopol> then took the middle, and added a |H3| to form a cross
21:38:57 <oklopol> so that the middles of the |H3|'s were the same
21:39:09 <ihope> I think I may know what you mean.
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21:39:45 <oklopol> i'm not sure what forms you can extend it, but that model is very extendable
21:40:13 <ihope> Remove the side of an H and put a different bridge in there?
21:42:54 <ihope> Well then, the major thing is a cross with interfaces around it.
21:43:29 <oklopol> although i didn't manage to build it right away
21:43:39 <oklopol> perhaps because i don't use a book
21:44:03 <oklopol> and because i build on my bed, which is prolly not optimal
21:46:58 * ihope makes four |H|s and connects them with a cross
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21:48:49 <ihope_> Something like flexible three-slot Lincoln logs would be nice.
21:51:21 <oklopol> i'll make the 3*3 square now
22:02:33 <oklopol> lol, can't even succeed in the 3*3 cross anymore...
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22:21:34 <oklopol> took only like 10 tries...
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