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03:55:44 <sgtd> warez da botz @!?
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04:11:59 <ELIZA842> one is here.
04:12:19 <oerjan> ELIZA842: have you learned to recognize your nick yet? ;)
04:12:44 <immibis> no it has not.
04:12:50 <immibis> i can't be bothered
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04:12:58 <oerjan> some of us _do_ depend on tab completion, you know :(
04:13:15 <immibis> you don't have to type it in uppercase though
04:13:31 <immibis> !raw nick _egobot_fillin
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04:13:49 <oerjan> 2 key presses vs. 7 is still a bit
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04:16:55 <immibis> elizaraw: nick ELIZa
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04:16:58 <immibis> elizaraw: nick ELIZA
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04:17:02 <immibis> any better?
04:17:37 <oerjan> ELIZA: My what a nice name you have.
04:17:37 <ELIZA> I am not interested in names.
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04:17:42 <oerjan> :(
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04:18:09 <oerjan> ELIZA: you are not very polite.
04:18:10 <ELIZA> What makes you think I am not very polite  ?
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04:27:37 <faxathisia> ELIZA: Get a life
04:27:37 <ELIZA> Does that have anything to do with the fact that your head is about to explode  ?
04:27:44 <faxathisia> WHat!
04:28:54 <oerjan> ELIZA: you are not very good at distinguishing us, are you?
04:28:54 <ELIZA> Does it please you to believe I am not very good at distinguishing us  ?
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05:13:23 <immibis> oerjan and faxathisia: I didn't bother programming it to distinguish you.
05:13:34 <immibis> or anyone else.
05:13:59 <immibis> it's just an open source java applet, downloaded and connected to irc.
05:27:44 <immibis> heh someone just searched "Zelda phantom hourglass phantom phantom phantom phantom phantom" and was looking for images.....now if only I knew why they were in Google Web Search (NOT image search)?
05:29:02 <Slereah_> That's a whole lot of phantoms.
05:29:12 <faxathisia> why the repitition..
05:29:13 <Slereah_> But I can understand why no google image.
05:29:35 <Slereah_> Some research on google image don't produce any, while google search can sometimes.
05:34:02 <pikhq> oerjan: Any ideas for terrible proposals that I could use? ;)
05:36:16 <oerjan> reinstate slavery!
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05:36:36 <pikhq> Details?
05:36:37 <oerjan> assuming Agora doesn't currently have it, of course
05:36:47 <oerjan> one never knows :)
05:37:00 * pikhq just needs about 100 proposals which will never be voted for.
05:37:13 <pikhq> Actually, I just need about 100 proposals which. . . Do nothing.
05:37:23 <pikhq> I don't even need Terrible Proposals.
05:38:10 <immibis> pikhq: it never says people can't change the rules by editing the wiki page.
05:38:16 <oerjan> There shall be the High Priestess of Wong.  At the start of every month, the High Priestess of Wong shall turn 55 degrees clockwise.
05:38:37 * pikhq is giving WALRUS the patent title of WALRUS.
05:39:04 <oerjan> there is a WALRUS? apart from the historical ones...
05:39:25 <pikhq> WALRUS is a partnership.
05:39:27 * immibis cracks up laughing about the high priestess of wong
05:40:29 <oerjan> immibis: i thought the rules used to be quite clear on only changing when they themselves required the change.  don't know about nowadays, though.
05:40:44 <immibis> i'm not a member of b nomic.
05:40:48 <pikhq> Its full name is "While Apples Laugh, Robert Unties Shoes".
05:40:52 <pikhq> immibis: This is Agora.
05:40:56 <immibis> oh?
05:40:59 <immibis> what's agora?
05:41:02 <pikhq> Agora Nomic.
05:41:06 <pikhq> Agora > B.
05:41:18 <immibis> and it is where?
05:41:21 <pikhq> (especially since B Nomic recently entered its *4th* era. . .)
05:41:27 <oerjan> agoranomic.org
05:41:28 * immibis finds it...
05:42:14 <immibis> ..."e wilt"?
05:42:29 <pikhq> "e" is a gender-neutral pronoun.
05:42:45 <oerjan> e, em, eir
05:45:55 <pikhq> oerjan, my terrible proposals are *similar* to the WALRUS, in that they encourage people to vote on them. . .
05:46:23 <pikhq> However, by the current rules of Agora, people are awarded for *making a vote* on a proposal, regardless of it being adopted or not.
05:46:52 <pikhq> So, the proposal itself need not award voters: it need only be a valid proposal.
05:47:10 <pikhq> s/WALRUS/Walrus\ Scam/
05:49:37 <oerjan> There shall be the Hippopotamus.  Every day except Thursdays, the Hippopotamus shall be Wallowing.
05:53:45 <pikhq> I'm also currently trying to make the location of Elephants relevant to the game. . .
05:55:30 <immibis> someone add the rule "There will be two layers of ketchup on the floor. Every time a player does a game action, or produces a notebook from under his chair, or every ten minutes on a Wopday or Tuesday, the top layer of ketchup will spawn an elephant and fling it at the person who performed the game action, or to every admin if it's Tuesday or Wopday."
05:56:35 <oerjan> There shall be Coffee and Brownie, to be Consumed at a Coffee Shop -->
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06:21:17 <immibis> A Fish A Fish is a kind of thing.
06:21:18 <immibis> oops
06:25:33 <oklopol> you and your crazy bots!
06:25:53 <oklopol> damn, all this talk about agora almost makes me wanna know what the heck it is :\
06:26:04 <oklopol> i hope it's not as awesome as it sounds
06:26:43 <faxathisia> What is agora? :|
06:26:50 <pikhq> http://agoranomic.org/
06:26:57 <pikhq> It is about as awesome as it sounds.
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06:34:39 <oklopol> 4800 proposals?
06:34:42 <oklopol> whut
06:34:48 <oklopol> haven't you made many yourself?
06:35:54 <oklopol> oh, right, there are many nomics
06:38:09 <immibis> A Fish State is a kind of value. The Fish States are Swimming, Caught, Drying Out, Being Shipped, In a Shop, Being Bought, Being Cooked, and Being Eaten. A Fish is a kind of thing. A Fish has a Fish State. A Fish is usually Swimming. This is the every day rule: Remove every Fish that is Being Eaten from the game; Every Fish that is Being Cooked becomes Being Eaten; Every Fish that is In a Shop becomes Being Cooke
06:38:26 * immibis realizes that's probably too long for irc, and posts it to a pastebin
06:39:39 <immibis> http://pastebin.ca/823212
06:42:14 <oklopol> am i to understand nomic is played fully in english?
06:42:42 <oklopol> i think i'd need it to have a formal language to wanna get involved :o
06:43:27 <immibis> try inform 7
06:43:40 <immibis> or even c, c++ or java
06:43:48 <oklopol> always wanted a fully extendable legal system enforced by the computer
06:43:59 <oklopol> inform 7
06:45:37 <immibis> legal system...i still say to try inform 7.
06:45:42 <immibis> and write your own.
06:46:50 <oklopol> "design system for interactive fiction"
06:47:00 <oklopol> can you demystify what inform is for me?
06:49:59 <oklopol> sounds interesting, but i have no idea what that has to do with a formal legal system
07:07:40 <immibis> the language itself is similar to english.
07:08:05 <immibis> and it would look very silly if the rules were modified to look like inform 7 code (but not necessarily BE inform 7 code)
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07:12:40 <oklopol> why use something that looks like english?
07:12:49 <oklopol> force the players to learn a new language, i say!
07:30:24 <immibis> my previous example was an example of the sort of thing i mean.
07:30:30 <immibis> http://pastebin.ca/823212
07:30:36 <immibis> it's a rather stupid rule.
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11:22:02 <oklopol> pikhq: i'm too lazy to check this myself, and don't remember, what's pebble written in? i recall it was tcl, but might be just the fact it itself is basically tcl.
11:23:02 <oklopol> was thinking i could make something to produce bf code to evaluate an arbitrary math expression given a set of free cells
11:23:30 <oklopol> but i don't really feel like making my own macro system, so... could perhaps do it in tcl and it could be added to pebble
11:23:37 <oklopol> although, you might not want my fingerprints there
11:23:44 <oklopol> and my code isn't pretty :)
11:23:54 <oklopol> so... everyone forget everything i said, k?
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12:47:26 <oerjan> <oklopol> am i to understand nomic is played fully in english? <oklopol> i think i'd need it to have a formal language to wanna get involved :o
12:47:54 <oklopol> whhhell, i mean, something more mathy!
12:47:55 <oerjan> we did experiment with both perlnomic and schemenomic
12:48:05 <oklopol> heh
12:48:06 <oklopol> didn't work?
12:48:56 <oklopol> i'm not sure how the game is played, since i'm sooooo busy right now, so i'm not sure what the rules do exactly
12:48:58 <oerjan> as i recall, our proposals tended occasionally to have bugs that required a manual backup
12:49:04 <oklopol> ah
12:49:43 <oerjan> perlnomic crashed completely i think, but schemenomic i think just petered out as we lost interest
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12:50:45 <oklopol> that i prolly would've tried
12:50:57 <oerjan> incidentally i once created quite a bit confusion in Agora by performing an action in Norwegian :)
12:51:52 <oerjan> the confusion was heightened (as planned) by the fact that one of the hardest words to guess was "ikke" (not)
12:52:09 <oerjan> so in fact it was a non-action, but no one could tell :)
12:53:10 <oklopol> haha :D
12:53:15 * oklopol would've cracked that
12:54:20 <oerjan> had to have a bit of luck... there were some who spoke german somewhat, but that was no help with that particular word
12:58:28 <oerjan> then there was Nomic World, the MUD.  it was played in English but the rules often required reprogramming the game
13:00:40 <oklopol> awesome, when did these things happen?
13:00:48 <oklopol> or is nomic world still alive?
13:01:08 <oerjan> Nomic World died in 1993
13:01:33 <oerjan> shortly afterward, Agora was created from the ashes
13:05:11 <dbc> If there was a directive creating ashes it should have died with the other directives, no?
13:05:58 <oerjan> from the ashes = by the refugees, really, who gathered on the nomic mailing list
13:06:16 <dbc> Fair enough.
13:06:58 <oerjan> although one thing _was_ saved from Nomic World - the Fantasy Rules Committee.  (by me, as i recall, as i was the Committee Judge at the time)
13:07:27 <oerjan> the Committee Rule specified that the judge could change the committee forum.
13:09:15 <oerjan> at least that is how i recall it.
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14:42:58 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p265265466.txt
14:43:23 <oklopol> i'll try something a bit more complicated
14:43:49 <oklopol> multiplication isn't done yet, and i need to refactor a bit so you can add functions easily, but it's quite nice already
14:44:14 <oklopol> or not, but it definately exists.
14:44:17 <oklopol> definitely
14:45:06 <Slereah-> There's a computation class in 2008.
14:45:15 <Slereah-> Hope I'll have enough free time to sneak in.
14:49:46 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p363642116.txt it may need some adjustment xD
14:50:01 <oklopol> oh, i show too little memory
14:50:37 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p554421432.txt
14:50:39 <oklopol> better
14:50:53 <Slereah-> What does it do!
14:51:06 <oklopol> stack code -> brainfuck code
14:51:13 <oklopol> harder than one might think
14:51:36 <oklopol> at least harder than i thought
14:51:50 <Slereah-> Stack code?
14:52:00 <oklopol> that's just the output of my program
14:52:03 <oklopol> err yeah
14:52:16 <oklopol> [n] means relative memory cell n
14:52:22 <oklopol> n:th cell from current cell
14:52:40 <oklopol> + takes two memory cells, and computes their sum
14:52:55 <oklopol> of course, you have to make sure everything is copied if used multiple times
14:53:09 <oklopol> and you have to keep track of which cells are free to use
14:53:48 <oklopol> the code is huge exactly because it makes of copy of everything if necessary
14:53:55 <oklopol> not that you can do much better in brainfuc
14:53:56 <oklopol> k
14:54:20 <oklopol> you could do it in less code though
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15:06:48 <oklopol> someone fluent in brainfuck throw me multiplication, faster than if i do it prolly :P
15:06:54 <oklopol> or not, but better
15:09:01 <Slereah-> Isn't the algorithm on the wiki?
15:09:22 <oklopol> oh, might be, i just usually google once and give up if it's not the first result :)
15:09:31 <Slereah-> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#x_.3D_x_.2A_y
15:09:33 <oklopol> hmm, actually...
15:10:05 <oklopol> there might be a problem, since i'm not sure i've taken to account most will want to use up the operands in the algo
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16:24:36 <Slereah-> Is the Wolfram book any good?
16:25:05 <RodgerTheGreat> NKS?
16:25:15 <Slereah-> Yes.
16:26:06 <RodgerTheGreat> From what I hear, most people find it highly controversial. People tend to think it's pure genius or complete drivel
16:26:22 <RodgerTheGreat> there is a fairly detailed wiki article
16:26:57 <RodgerTheGreat> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_New_Kind_of_Science
16:27:35 <Slereah-> The criticisms section seems hefty.
16:27:47 <RodgerTheGreat> one big criticism is a notable lack of peer-review in most of wolfram's work
16:28:11 <RodgerTheGreat> a "new kind of science" isn't necessarily rigorous science, it would appear
16:28:22 <dbc> Someone was complaining that all the good stuff in it is borrowed from other people, and in most cases previously published.
16:29:10 <Slereah-> I guess the purchase will have to wait.
16:29:45 <RodgerTheGreat> there is of course the infamous "rule 110" cellular automaton proof
16:30:00 <RodgerTheGreat> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_110_cellular_automaton
16:30:15 <dbc> Right, which was by an employee of his, and he took legal action to get the person not to publish it? Since it was done on Wolfram's time?
16:30:38 <dbc> (iirc)
16:31:01 <RodgerTheGreat> something like that
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16:39:29 <porfus271> please say "Hello World"
16:42:08 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not at all in the mood for IRP today.
16:42:27 <Slereah-> Plus, why always "Hello world"?
16:42:34 <porfus271> its in the wiki
16:42:38 <porfus271> and its my first program... tradition
16:42:42 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, I would say "Hello, World!"
16:42:56 <RodgerTheGreat> that's how I generally punctuate it, anyway.
16:43:16 <porfus271> i guess my proggy is a little buggy
16:44:13 <Slereah-> Does "Hello world" have a particular origin
16:44:13 <Slereah-> ?
16:44:43 <Slereah-> Let's ask wikipedia.
16:44:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I know it's present in BASIC programming books from the mid 70's
16:45:40 <Slereah-> "The first known instance of the usage of the words "hello" and "world" together in computer literature occurred earlier, in Kernighan's 1972 Tutorial Introduction to the Language B"
16:45:55 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, bell labs
16:47:23 <RodgerTheGreat> "Functional programming languages, like Lisp, ML, and Haskell, tend to substitute a factorial program for Hello World, as the former emphasizes recursive techniques..." <- wtf?
16:47:47 <RodgerTheGreat> as an example of how never to program anything else in the language, or what?
16:48:49 <RodgerTheGreat> although I suppose the "spirit" of LISP is more in line with using recursion simply because you can, rather than in cases where it's a good idea
16:49:32 <RodgerTheGreat> at least it isn't a recursive fibonacci sequence program, I guess
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17:14:38 <porfus271> ha
17:14:43 <porfus271> how about this
17:14:49 <porfus271> PLEASE say "/quit"
17:14:58 <porfus271> without the quotes
17:15:05 <porfus271> oh man i bet this is SO original
17:15:12 <Slereah-> /quit
17:15:13 <porfus271> no one has thought of this before
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17:15:29 <Slereah-> Lulz
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19:46:27 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: in haskell, they show you how to do factorial recursively, so that people too stupid to understand how that works stop reading.
19:46:39 <lament> Then, they show you  fac n = product [1..n]
19:47:03 <Slereah-> Heh.
19:48:36 <oklopol> i never understood what's so wrong with recursion
19:48:56 <oklopol> with everything else, it's always about clarity, but when it comes to recursion, NEVER, that's slow!
19:49:12 <oklopol> at least that's my impression
19:49:17 <bsmntbombdood> people are stupid
19:49:24 <lament> oklopol: not in haskell
19:49:30 <oklopol> ?
19:49:34 <oklopol> what not in haskell
19:49:44 <lament> in haskell: it's always about clarity. Recursion is often not as clear as other ways. Therefore, it's rarely used.
19:50:11 <oklopol> true
19:50:34 <lament> at least when it's tail recursion as opposed to "true" recursion where you have to recurse more than once in the same call
19:50:46 <lament> which you typically can't get rid of at all
19:50:46 <oklopol> but, if using an imperative language, the recursive solution is usually much simpler than the imperative one...
19:51:22 <oklopol> yeah, tail recursion is usually clearer in an iterative fashion
19:51:26 <oklopol> that's a given
19:51:38 <oklopol> but, i was just speaking generally
19:51:57 <oklopol> i do know haskell is the language of gods
19:52:14 <Slereah-> Is the universe programmed in Haskell?
19:52:23 <oklopol> yes
19:52:42 <oklopol> for the most part, i think they used scheme too
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20:12:32 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: I wasn
20:12:50 <RodgerTheGreat> I wasn't saying recursion is bad, but there are many cases where it's a horrible idea
20:12:52 <faxathisia> the last 5 pages of the universe is alll ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
20:13:06 <Slereah-> Heh.
20:13:09 <RodgerTheGreat> like GOTO, it should be used carefully, sparingly, and where it's the most effective solution
20:13:17 <RodgerTheGreat> use it wrong and you can fuck up royally
20:14:00 <faxathisia> This guy teaches java at my uni, he email the whole saying "Please <i>please</i> <b>please</b> do not use break labels (java) !" and gave no reasons why!
20:14:19 <faxathisia> the whole class*
20:14:29 <RodgerTheGreat> lol
20:15:09 <RodgerTheGreat> well, that's because break labels in Java are generally a horrible, horrible hacky way to do things. It's a little like ternary operators in Java- possible, but heavily frowned upon
20:15:35 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: indeed, it's sometimes a really bad idea, but i doubt most c programmers know *why* and *when* it's a bad idea
20:15:43 <oklopol> it's just EVIL RECURSION KILL THE HERETIC
20:15:46 <RodgerTheGreat> exactly
20:16:01 <RodgerTheGreat> but most C programmers tend to be very closed-minded about languages in general
20:16:16 <oklopol> well, true
20:17:10 <faxathisia> well C doesn't specifiy TCO
20:17:19 <RodgerTheGreat> "If it doesn't compile, it sucks. If it doesn't have pointers, it sucks. If it does any runtime checking at all it's horribly 'inefficient' and sucks." etc, etc
20:17:19 <faxathisia> so you are basically risking it everytime you recursse
20:17:58 <Slereah-> I guess my language sucks big time :O
20:18:11 <RodgerTheGreat> which is why C programmers naturally hate Java. Ironically, java programmers tend to hate C (or more often C++) for exactly the opposite reasons
20:18:22 <Slereah-> Heh.
20:18:40 <Slereah-> It would be more ironic if it was the same!
20:18:50 <RodgerTheGreat> I like languages with optional runtime checks that can be compiled in
20:19:19 <faxathisia> I like Prolog.. Way too much!
20:20:36 <faxathisia> Slereah- What language ?
20:20:47 <Slereah-> Just some Turing machine.
20:22:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I also love postscript
20:24:16 <RodgerTheGreat> I highly recommend that anyone who's never played with postscript give it a spin sometime. For a language that was never intended for human use, it will surprise you.
20:24:35 <Slereah-> Was it intended for robots?
20:25:50 <faxathisia> ohh
20:25:55 <faxathisia> I am really enjoying SQL
20:25:58 <RodgerTheGreat> computers
20:26:03 <RodgerTheGreat> and typesetting software
20:26:06 <RodgerTheGreat> and laser printers
20:26:23 <faxathisia> It's a great language i think..
20:26:41 <RodgerTheGreat> it's like discovering that you can crack open a word document and find a beautiful scripting language inside
20:26:59 <Slereah-> Heh.
20:27:24 <Slereah-> Is it nice for such a language, or actually nice?
20:27:30 <RodgerTheGreat> actually nie
20:27:32 <RodgerTheGreat> *nice
20:28:01 <RodgerTheGreat> I can honestly say it has the prettiest syntax I've ever seen in a non-esolang
20:28:15 <RodgerTheGreat> and I accidentally designed a language very much like it in my free time
20:28:28 <Slereah-> Thusly? http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-postscript-1135.html
20:29:57 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
20:30:25 <Slereah-> It's okay I guess.
20:30:29 <RodgerTheGreat> although that isn't much like how I tab in the language
20:30:46 <RodgerTheGreat> that isn't a very good example of how the language is pretty, though
20:31:10 <RodgerTheGreat> look at some of these: http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~andersr/fractal/PostScript.html
20:33:37 <Slereah-> I can't seem to appreciate it.
20:33:52 <oklopol> ;i
20:34:15 <oklopol> try stripping the comments
20:34:16 * faxathisia thinks.. you often have ot write code to really feel it ?
20:34:33 <oklopol> faxathisia: i think so too
20:36:06 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, I'd agree with faxathisia
20:36:44 <RodgerTheGreat> it's difficult to say what in particular I like about PS aside from the fact that it's stack-based, but it just feels very clean and expressive
20:37:12 <faxathisia> I wonder why did I never get into any stack languages
20:37:26 <faxathisia> I've coded small amounts but never got immersed
20:37:36 <bsmntbombdood> dc dc dc dc !
20:37:45 <faxathisia> oh yea hI wrote factorial I think thats all :p
20:37:53 <faxathisia> dc is nice though
20:39:33 <RodgerTheGreat> learning to use an RPN calculator and hearing about FORTH made me fall in love with stack-based languages
20:40:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I then designed and implemented a language that, as it turned out, is eerily similar to postscript by designing things how I assumed they worked in FORTH
20:40:36 <RodgerTheGreat> learning real FORTH was a little disappointing to me after that. :/
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21:35:10 <Slereah-> Hm.
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21:38:48 <Slereah-> Hello
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21:55:45 <Slereah> Was I under the delusion that you couldn't change a string variable on Python for two weeks when it's actually only for letters of this string?
21:56:10 <bsmntbombdood> huh?
21:56:42 <Slereah> Yes, it is hard to express.
21:57:59 <Slereah> When I first read the tutorial, I saw this :
21:58:00 <Slereah> "Unlike a C string, Python strings cannot be changed. Assigning to an indexed position in the string results in an error"
21:58:18 <Slereah> I though you couldn't assign a new string to a string variable.
21:58:30 <Slereah> Which was kind of a nuisance to program
21:59:03 <faxathisia> why are strings in python immutable?
21:59:15 <Slereah> No idea.
21:59:28 <faxathisia> if this language has mutable objects..
22:00:43 <Slereah> I suppose that you could do string = string[0:i-1] + "char" + string[i:len(string)] instead
22:02:20 <Slereah> It works.
22:09:50 <oklopol> it's not hard to express
22:10:01 <oklopol> in python, strings are immutable, but variables aren't, ever.
22:10:17 <oklopol> you can always change the contents of a var
22:10:21 <oklopol> but you can't change a string
22:10:36 <Slereah> Strange concept.
22:10:51 <oklopol> maybe, but it's not unique.
22:11:55 <Slereah> What is the purpose of this feature?
22:12:38 <oklopol> if you change a string, it changes everywhere that string exists
22:12:45 <oklopol> so you could not use one as a hashtable entry
22:13:10 <Slereah> Bye.
22:13:15 <oklopol> + prevents some bugs
22:13:15 <Slereah> Oops, wrong window.
22:13:17 <oklopol> :P
22:13:25 <Slereah> Do not fear, I am not going away
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22:13:41 <Slereah> Well, my ghost is
22:13:44 <Slereah> But not me.
22:14:16 <oklopol> i see
22:14:29 <oklopol> i almost burst into tears
22:14:43 <bsmntbombdood> not strange
22:15:07 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: do you consider anything strange?
22:15:14 <bsmntbombdood> dunno
22:15:36 <oklopol> even if i told you i wanna gruzel you gnuzels? ;)
22:15:43 <bsmntbombdood> um
22:15:47 <bsmntbombdood> what does that mean?
22:16:26 <oklopol> kinda like frumbling you quilzers
22:16:29 <oklopol> only with my penis.
22:16:44 <Slereah> You're going to do his taxes with your penis?
22:16:46 <bsmntbombdood> sounds good
22:20:02 <Slereah> Well, time to try to clean up my code from that delusion.
22:21:58 <oklopol> Slereah: there's nothing weird with immutability, the object just doesn't have any method the change it, all it's methods just return data about it
22:22:24 <oklopol> but, you *can* concatenate strings for example, it's just the result is returned as a new string.
22:28:32 <Slereah> I see.
22:29:10 <SimonRC> this means that strings are really just like numbers etc
22:45:19 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p611362161.txt
22:45:27 <oklopol> started playing with this again :P
22:45:32 <oklopol> moduloez!
22:46:19 <oklopol> it now "only" lacks constants and... err, what's it called
22:46:41 <oklopol> oh, doesn't have a name, heh, i mean, it can't handle unused cells with other than zero value
22:47:00 <oklopol> would be a 5-minute adjustment prolly, and would simplify multiplication and division a bit
22:57:02 <SimonRC> oklopol: what is that?
22:57:49 <oklopol> made a simple stack-language -> brainfuck converter, nothing fancy, like a real tc stack language, was just thinking it'd be nice to be able to convert simple expressions to bf
22:58:48 <oklopol> that works for any expression with cells given by [cell index] and operators +, -, *, / and \ for swap, although dunno if that's necessary really
22:59:20 <SimonRC> cool
22:59:33 <SimonRC> is there a trick to swap, or is it just dumb?
23:00:02 <SimonRC> I think the a-=b-=a-=b trick might be good there
23:00:09 <SimonRC> or whatever it is
23:00:11 <oklopol> swap could, in theory, just swap virtually, can use different locations for the following commands... but i made it actually swap, in case you wanna use it in a loop or something
23:00:27 <oklopol> uhhh everything is stolen from our wiki :P
23:00:31 <oklopol> i mean, the algos
23:00:49 <oklopol> i program just two languages at a time if possible...
23:01:04 <oklopol> (python + stack language)
23:02:02 <oklopol> i actually wrote an almost error free stack-bf converter right away, but had two 20-minute sessions trying to locate errors in it, when it was actually correct, i just forgot what the stack language was supposed to do xD
23:02:12 <SimonRC> well that is a bit of a crap algo...
23:02:22 <oklopol> hmm
23:02:30 <oklopol> i'll *look* at it
23:02:53 * SimonRC tries to figure out the better one
23:03:24 <oklopol> i'd also like a destructive multiplication / division, since this doesn't currently support non-destructive ones xD
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23:10:10 <SimonRC> hmm, that will be more complicated than I thought
23:10:17 <SimonRC> and you can't avoid a temp variable
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23:10:44 <SimonRC> I think one can do something clever with differentes, though
23:10:59 <oklopol> les diferantes?
23:12:06 <SimonRC> *differences
23:12:08 <SimonRC> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XOR_swap_algorithm#Variations
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