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00:17:49 <ihope> Small world, I guess. I conclude that everyone here is interested in Nomic.
00:19:51 <ihope> Oerjan Johansen and pikhq, for two.
00:20:57 <oklopol> yes, though i think they are the only ones
00:21:17 <oklopol> also, you should not use oerjan's full name without using pikhq's
00:21:32 <oklopol> for by doing so you revealed you don't know his name.
00:22:13 <Slereah-> Yes, we now know your TERRIBLE SECRET
00:23:03 <ihope> Josiah "pikhq" Worcester, then?
00:23:30 <ihope> There are other Oerjans; I don't think there's a significant number of pikhqs.
00:28:10 <ihope> Therefore, I clearly knew pikhq's real name all along.
00:34:05 <ihope> Then there's Kevan Davis, who is not part of this community as far as I know.
00:56:04 <ihope> And there's Douglas Hofstadter, who is a real person.
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01:16:36 <Sgeo> Should I work on PSOX?
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01:19:43 <GregorR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBGzHfdr90w // I built a trombute!
01:20:39 <Sgeo> Slereah-, not working on PSOX because nobody cares about PSOX
01:21:34 <Sgeo> I mean, if people showed interest in it, I'd work on it
01:21:41 <Sgeo> Is anyone here interested?
01:21:44 <oklopol> Sgeo: i'm interested in the result, yes
01:22:02 <oklopol> GregorR: is that an invention of yours?
01:22:10 <oklopol> too lazy to googlify, once again
01:22:43 <Sgeo> Also, anyone here who disliked the strange safety stuff: It's being redone. Safety stuff will be specified on the command line, e.g. "--safety nohttp,fullfileio"
01:22:57 <GregorR> oklopol: It's a giant slide flute.
01:23:20 <Sgeo> Instead of requesting permissions while the program runs, etc. etc. etc.
01:23:28 <Sgeo> There will still be a safety log, though
01:23:33 <oklopol> run-time requests are a stupid idea, imo
01:23:39 <GregorR> oklopol: A giant slide flute made of PVC pipe, specifically :P
01:24:05 <oklopol> too dark, can't see how it works :<
01:24:25 <GregorR> Yeah, sorry, wasn't a good place to record a video :P
01:24:58 * Sgeo hates the fact that requests for input are required
01:25:20 <Sgeo> And also, in non-PSOX programs run on a PSOX interpreter, there may be a condition I call "Comma-Hang"
01:25:32 <Sgeo> The canonical BF CAT program suffers from it
01:26:32 <Sgeo> Because it doesn't send out anything indicating that it ISN'T a PSOX program, and the BF interpreter waits
01:26:39 <Sgeo> While the PSOX interpreter waits..
01:26:48 <Sgeo> Slereah-, that stops on NUL
01:27:22 <GregorR> oklopol: http://www.codu.org/pics/thumbnails.php?album=3 // this is better for seeing how it actually works.
01:28:13 <Sgeo> Don't know if you can type it in, but the problem's still there
01:30:15 <Slereah-> What would happen if you glued a small whistle inside it?
01:30:26 <Slereah-> And blew in it while jerking around the tube!
01:31:10 <Sgeo> Will anyone join #psox ?
01:31:19 <GregorR> oklopol: I'm making some instructions, I'll upload them in a while.
01:31:35 <GregorR> Slereah-: That would be just convert the slide flute into a slide whistle *shrugs*
01:33:16 <oklopol> "That would be just convert the slide flute into a slide whistle" i failed to parse this
01:33:50 <Slereah-> Maybe you can make the music of some Mexican movie!
01:34:15 <GregorR> oklopol: Whistles are just flutes with a fipple at the end. Go wikipedia "fipple" for more information :P
01:34:41 <oklopol> parse errors have nothing to do with semantics!
01:35:07 <oklopol> although i do not know what a fipple is.
01:35:28 <Slereah-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fipple
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01:36:14 <oklopol> yeah, anyway, i'm getting a bit paranoid here, was "That would be just convert the slide flute into a slide whistle" in fact correct english and i'm just failing badly?
01:37:04 <Slereah-> Although the be seems a little out of place.
01:38:18 <oklopol> i was thinking "converting", and wanted to point it out just to be annoying, but GregorR either didn't reread his sentence or i'm indeed losing my mind
01:39:01 <GregorR> My sentence was correct as is.
01:39:36 <oklopol> now help me parse it, please :)
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01:40:44 <oklopol> blah, okay, i'll just try to forget about it :)
01:42:20 <GregorR> "That would be just convert the slide flute into a slide whistle"
01:42:34 <GregorR> "Performing the action you've mentioned would be just convert the slide flute into a slide whistle"
01:42:55 <GregorR> "The effect of performing the action you've mentioned would be to convert the slide flute into a slide whistle"
01:43:37 <oklopol> well, i did understand it to begin with, just didn't realize you can make lambdas that way too in english
01:43:46 <oklopol> then again, i don't understand much at this hour
01:44:41 <oklopol> i'm actually coding naked as we speak.
01:45:07 <oklopol> well, when we speak, i'm not coding, but i code during the few seconds of silence between messages
01:45:22 <Slereah-> Well, when we speak, you are coding.
01:45:46 <oklopol> omg, hope i don't get kb's
01:46:12 <Slereah-> Please, banning oklopol = False
01:46:39 <Sgeo> Does this line make sense to people?
01:46:40 <Sgeo> ./PSOX.py -s nonet ./bf myprog.b
01:47:30 <oklopol> to continue the highly cerebral discussion, i'm more half-naked, i have my shirt on, but nothing else
01:48:22 <Slereah-> It's surprisingly hot in here.
01:48:55 <Slereah-> I'm trying to add m-functions in my Turing machine, but it's hard when you're not concentrated
01:50:30 * oklopol tries to concentrate to make it easier
01:51:04 <Sgeo> oklopol, only somewhat?
01:51:10 <Sgeo> "-s" is safety
01:51:15 <Sgeo> Specifies safety options
01:51:31 <oklopol> okay, then makes 90% sense
01:52:12 <Sgeo> What doesn't make sense?
01:53:09 <Sgeo> I'm assuming that the bf interpreter is in the same directory
01:54:02 <oklopol> ./psox.py opens the psox server and runs the command given piping stdio to the server?
01:54:55 <oklopol> i guess i got to 99% then, that's as far as i go after 2am
01:55:35 <Sgeo> What's the last 1%?
01:55:56 <oklopol> that's reserved for times when i'm fully awake
01:56:54 <pikhq> GregorR: Congrats on creating a new instrument.
01:57:17 <pikhq> Now, if you can play it well, I'll applaud you. :p
01:58:02 <oklopol> well, at least you can make out the song
01:58:16 <Slereah-> If someone can play the spoon, and someone else with a string, we can make a band!
01:58:45 <Slereah-> "The limited budget boys" or something.
02:02:43 <pikhq> My room, for the first time in several *years*, is clean.
02:03:27 <pikhq> And it only took a couple days of work.
02:03:55 <Slereah-> Reminds me. I should start studying tomorrow.
02:04:22 * pikhq should consider getting back up on his Japanese studies
02:04:40 <pikhq> Which reminds me: anyone seen Sukoshi around in the past, oh, 6 months?
02:04:50 <Slereah-> Is there any programming language based on another alphabet?
02:05:10 <pikhq> No, but I could trivially make Tcl take Japanese input.
02:05:11 <Slereah-> Why don't we ever see programs in cyrillic or katakana!
02:05:47 <pikhq> A few simple things about it: first, everything is in Unicode. Second, the builtins are just ordinary functions.
02:05:53 <Slereah-> Or the old Nahuatl script, which is throughly impossible to use on a keyboard.
02:06:05 <pikhq> So, it's a simple matter to rename the builtins.
02:06:28 <pikhq> And a slightly more difficult matter to write a wrapper around the builtins so all the arguments are Japanese.
02:07:31 <Slereah-> I wonder if there's some learning languages made in the local languages.
02:08:13 <pikhq> プロック フー {バー バーッズ} {書いて "もしもし、世界！"};フー
02:08:24 <pikhq> That can be 100% valid Tcl.
02:08:33 <pikhq> Already, it's syntactically valid. ;)
02:09:17 <pikhq> Hrm. Why am I having foo take arguments bar and baz if it just outputs "Hello, world!"?
02:10:03 <Slereah-> Well, maybe foo is "print", bar is "Hello," and baz is "world!".
02:10:43 <pikhq> プロック フー {バー バーッズ} {書いて "${バー}、${バーッズ}！"};フー もしもし 世界
02:11:07 <pikhq> proc foo {bar baz} {puts "Hello, world!"};foo
02:11:19 <pikhq> proc foo {bar baz} {puts "$bar, $baz!"
02:11:50 <pikhq> Extra newlines not withstanding.
02:15:33 <oklopol> Slereah-: there's a finnish translation of vba for microsoft word!
02:16:03 <oklopol> visual basic for applications
02:16:19 <Slereah-> The frenchest thing we've ever done here was some sort of French pseudocode during our first year!
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02:21:58 <Slereah> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=2142109719&size=o
02:31:34 <Slereah> Hm. Is there a way to use the internal speaker with Python?
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02:37:34 <Slereah> Playing the Super Mario theme on a Turing machine or the Monkey Island one has some appeal to me.
02:40:14 <oklopol> does your turing machine have an "audible" state?
02:41:08 <Slereah> Well, if I can find a way to use the internal speaker from Python, I can just print notes and play them with some function!
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03:05:44 <GregorR> How to build a trombute: http://www.codu.org/pvcinstruments/ (ping oklopol)
03:09:09 <GregorR> You realize that it doesn't have to be a slide instrument just because it's made of PVC :P
03:09:52 <GregorR> OK, I took the word "trom" from "trombone" genius X_X
03:10:18 <GregorR> You can make a perfectly good flute out of PVC *shrugs*
03:10:25 <GregorR> So I figured - why not a slide flute?
03:10:51 <oklopol> indeed you did, but "trom" sounds fun
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03:13:27 <oklopol> but it is trombone + flute, right?
03:14:34 <oklopol> assumed the other part is an instrument and the other is something pvc-related
03:15:57 <pikhq> GregorR: Is there any reason for you not gluing the joints together?
03:20:27 <pikhq> But that PVC glue (epoxy?) is less ghetto, more air-tight, and more likely to stay together.
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03:51:09 <ihope> pikhq: that was fast.
03:51:22 <ihope> I don't suppose you're the Registrar.
03:51:39 <pikhq> I just have my mail client checking every minute.
03:51:52 <pikhq> Pity you're not in Agora. ;p
03:52:08 <ihope> I might join it soon.
03:52:49 <ihope> You're not a Minister at all? How boring!
03:52:59 <pikhq> I'm more active in Agora.
03:53:14 <pikhq> I have two offices and three patent titles in Agora.
03:53:26 <ihope> What are your patent titles?
03:53:42 <pikhq> Agoran Spy, Champion, and Minister Without Portfolio.
03:54:07 <pikhq> A proposal being voted on ATM should award me the title of Scamster, as well.
03:54:11 <ihope> Minister Without Portfolio? Interesting.
03:56:11 <pikhq> Read the ruleset sometime. Quite a good read, if you have an afternoon.
03:59:28 <ihope> "Rule 101/7 (Power=3)"
03:59:33 <ihope> I'm confused already.
04:00:17 <pikhq> The power of a rule determines what the rule takes precedence over (along with the rule text).
04:00:29 <pikhq> A power 3 rule takes precedence over a power 2 rule, and a power 1 rule.
04:00:41 <pikhq> 101/7. That just says that it's rule #101, revision 7.
04:01:13 <pikhq> Not rule dictated or anything; just convention.
04:04:14 <ihope> It's just convention that a power 3 rule takes precedence over a power 2 rule?
04:04:39 <pikhq> No, the formatting is just a convention.
04:04:56 <pikhq> The precedence rules are quite solidly defined in Section "Rules".
04:05:24 <pikhq> (as is the definition of a rule)
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04:07:09 * pikhq reads the Full Logical Ruleset, and gets amused by some of the cases concerning the rule's interpretation. . .
04:08:15 <pikhq> "The game must operate according to rules that exist at the time, and not attempt to incorporate retroactive changes made in the future" CFJ 1848. . .
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04:10:14 <ihope> Is there a term for when a judge of some sort makes a judgement in bad faith?
04:10:15 <oklopol_> heh, 3rd random reboot today xD
04:10:20 <ihope> A bad-faith judgement?
04:12:01 <pikhq> That would be a judgement soon to be appealed.
04:12:34 <pikhq> And perhaps an "inappropriate judgement". An inappropriate judgement may be punished, should we opt to do so.
04:13:44 <ihope> Call it a Mockingbird judgement in an emergency.
04:16:59 <ihope> I want to have a power of 4. >:-)
04:17:41 <pikhq> You can't have a power of 4. You're not an instrument.
04:19:08 <ihope> I guess I'd settle for just being an instrument.
04:19:14 <ihope> For now, I'll settle for being a player :-P
04:24:23 <ihope> So players generally have power 0, meaning instruments have complete control over the players?
04:28:53 <ihope> Mm, how come an emergency session results in all non-Senators going supine?
04:31:22 <ihope> Is supine-ness meant in the sense of passiveness, with calling it a posture just being a pun?
04:34:57 <Slereah-> Man, even on PC speaker the Monkey Island 2 theme seems horribly complex!
04:35:52 <pikhq> Players aren't instruments, so they don't have a power.
04:36:03 <pikhq> The supine-ness means that they can't judge.
04:37:18 <ihope> Players aren't entities, then? Either an entity has power 0 or it's an instrument.
04:37:48 <pikhq> Entities are things which are soley defined by the rules.
04:38:04 <pikhq> Unless you manage to sequence your DNA and stick it in the ruleset, you're not an entity. ;)
04:43:44 <ihope> Looks like Agora has a Rulekeepor instead of a Rulekeeper?
04:49:22 <pikhq> You'd have to ask Rulekeepor Zefram why.
04:53:23 <ihope> Rule 869 says a player is an entity. I take it this means that a player is not the human behind that player.
04:53:51 <pikhq> Complicated ruleset, one must admit.
04:54:29 <pikhq> My favorite rule is rule 2029.
04:55:26 <ihope> Is it the only rule with power 4?
04:55:52 <pikhq> The scam that put it in place changed the rules to *allow* for a power 4 rule.
05:11:35 <ihope> Now, normally, I keep all this email from colleges in my inbox.
05:11:55 <ihope> But this one got sent to the spam box, and I feel like keeping it there. :-)
05:14:32 <pikhq> I don't need to bother with that junk anymore.
05:14:46 <pikhq> Why bother when you're already happy with the school you're signed up for?
05:17:16 <ihope> Rockford High School doesn't have many graduate-level courses. :-P
05:22:42 <pikhq> Nor does Mitchell High; the point is that I have college lined up already. . .
05:49:28 <Sgeo> What's Plof? </stupid-question>
05:50:16 <pikhq> Plof is Gregor's own functional/imperative language.
05:50:16 <ihope> GregorR's programming language, isn't it?
05:50:54 <pikhq> I'm perhaps the only non-Gregor person involved in it.
05:54:02 <pikhq> http://www.codu.org/plof/
05:54:55 * Sgeo wonders how it could work with PSOX..
05:55:10 <Sgeo> WARNING: [UserPermissions] are unconfigured!
05:55:10 <Sgeo> This node is currently empty.
05:55:37 <pikhq> Just need to finalise the C API.
05:56:15 <Sgeo> Would anyone appreciate PSOX?
05:59:44 <pikhq> Although other things in life are keeping me away from Esome.
06:00:24 <ihope> Make yourself useful! Join a nomic!
06:02:21 <Sgeo> Is PSOX useful at all?
06:03:00 <ihope> Esoteric languages in general do tend to be useless.
06:03:20 <Sgeo> Would people in the esolang community consider PSOX to be a good thing?
06:03:27 <Sgeo> Or will most people ignore it?
06:05:01 <ihope> I wouldn't consider it very useful as esolangy things go, really.
06:06:37 <ihope> Though I do rather expect that I consider it less useful than the average esolanger would.
06:07:39 <ihope> As I perceive things, PSOX has many unnecessary features.
06:13:04 <ihope> Now that I actually think about it, my perceptions may well be flawed. The only example I can think of is PSOX automatically asking for permission for the program to do stuff.
06:13:21 <Sgeo> ihope, that's changing incidentally
06:13:50 <ihope> Now it's becoming more useful in my mind. :-)
06:13:56 <Sgeo> There will be an option on the command line, so you can specify e.g. "-s nohttp" and the HTTP domain will be disabled
06:16:00 * Sgeo should go to sleep soon
06:16:20 <ihope> I should have gone to sleep hours ago. :-P
06:16:34 * pikhq should sleep sometime tomorrow. :p
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06:17:28 * Sgeo CTCP TIME's pikhq
06:17:43 <pikhq> It's the same as bsmntbombdood.
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06:20:36 <pikhq> State buddies too, last I checked.
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15:59:55 * Sgeo should work on PSOX.. someone motivate me please?
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17:32:31 <Hiato> anyway, I would like to get some feedback from you about my esolang http://www.full0.8tt.org
17:35:01 <pikhq> From what I gather so far, that is a diabolically clever language.
17:35:26 <pikhq> Could you please offer the documentation in a non-Windows-specific format?
17:35:43 <Hiato> well, there is the online version which is .txt
17:36:02 <Hiato> should I make an RTF or an open office type format?
17:36:27 <Hiato> (PS: I use Linux myself, just thought though that .doc is easier for most)
17:36:57 <pikhq> I suspect that there isn't anyone here who *uses* Windows. :p
17:37:14 <pikhq> Erm. Delphi for the interpreter?
17:37:33 <Hiato> but that should work in Freepascal
17:37:47 <Hiato> I'd be might happy if someone ported it ;)
17:37:55 <pikhq> Also, your download links are wrong.
17:38:35 <pikhq> You prepended a \ before them for no good reason.
17:43:19 <Hiato> ok, well I have to go now, though I will be back later. Let me know
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17:46:32 <Sgeo> Sohpia = some Uncyclopedia thing
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20:02:33 <Hiato> Ok, pikhq what did you make of it?
20:04:02 <pikhq> I've not read the full spec; been doing a bit of housework.
20:07:15 <pikhq> That's one of the better esolangs I've seen recently.
20:07:33 <Hiato> Thank you for your kind words :D
20:08:13 <pikhq> I don't think I've been quite this surprised at a language design since I saw Glass.
20:09:58 <Sgeo> and Hi Hiato and ehird`
20:10:16 <Hiato> Hi, http://full0.8tt.org
20:10:25 <Hiato> is what was being discussed
20:12:35 <oklopol_> the link isn't all *that* far away.
20:13:18 <Hiato> lol, (nudegs oklopol's mouse pointer to the link and clicks)
20:13:52 <pikhq> [x][x][0][x][x][(x=x)([(x)(x)])][(x)(x)]
20:14:50 <Hiato> I'm not sure what you're on about there... but that is how the code looks :)
20:14:51 <Sgeo> <plug>PSOX would be useful for this language, I guess</plug>
20:15:14 <pikhq> I think that just executes all of the commands for no good reason, Hiato. ;)
20:15:26 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX
20:15:36 <Sgeo> PSOX is a layer that goes between stdin/stdout and an esolang that can only do stdin/stdout. It will provide things such as file manipulation and HTTP stuff to languages like Brainfuck.
20:16:38 <Hiato> hrmm.. well I sure can't implement it in delphi ;) But, I'll look around
20:17:05 <Sgeo> I'm working on implementing it in Python
20:17:05 <Hiato> I notice that it is * your * project Sgeo (cough cough)
20:17:10 <Sgeo> Yes, yes it is
20:17:22 <pikhq> We in Esome commonly plug our own stuff. ;p
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20:24:21 <ehird`> the most useless unneeded vaporware there is
20:27:01 <Hiato> wonderful Full0 or POSX? Cause if it's full0 , thanks :)
20:27:13 <Sgeo> Isn't bsmntbombdood supposed to do the anti-PSOX stuff?
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20:36:37 <calamari> oerjan: :P ascii art has its limitations
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20:50:19 <Hiato> will there ever be anopther Esoteric Awards Competition?
20:50:48 <oerjan> well the two last ones never were judged...
20:51:30 <oerjan> now the last competition was just about a year ago, i think
20:51:54 <Hiato> a pitty, from what I could see, they were interesting
20:55:35 <Sgeo> Whatever happened to that Factory language?
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21:16:25 <Slereah> Would this work? http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2384/2144871414_67e1245e41_o.jpg
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21:37:48 <faxathisia> I don't know if this is totally esoteric or not
21:38:05 <faxathisia> but I got my code into reasonable state..
21:40:28 * Slereah reads the Malbolge description.
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21:41:24 <Sgeo> Does anyone in here think that PSOX isn't vaporware?
21:41:26 <faxathisia> oh I just realised what I pasted makes no sense
21:42:00 <Sgeo> ehird`, said that it's vaporware
21:42:03 <faxathisia> (in my paste, -i is read an invert the program)
21:42:15 <Sgeo> <ehird`> oh gawd PSOX again?!
21:42:15 <Sgeo> <pikhq> Of course.
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21:42:15 <Sgeo> <ehird`> the most useless unneeded vaporware there is
21:42:15 <Sgeo> <ehird`> wonderful
21:42:34 <ehird`> faxathisia: that looks nice
21:42:48 <ehird`> what's the interpreter written in
21:44:24 <faxathisia> It's got assignment, if_then_else_fi_, from_do_loop_until_, call_, uncall_ and skip
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21:46:50 <faxathisia> there's a self interpreter I need to get that running :D
21:50:09 <faxathisia> hm.. it couldn't close over variables either..
21:53:24 <oklopol_> what, reversible language without a reversible name!?
21:53:32 * Sgeo will hopefully work on PSOX soonish
21:53:36 -!- oklopol_ has changed nick to oklopol.
21:53:37 * Sgeo has some ideas..
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21:58:35 <oklopol> quick poll: do you have ideas?
21:59:38 <Sgeo> I meant, ideas wrt PSOX
22:02:10 <oklopol> that was in no way meant as an offence, it was quite random.
22:02:22 <oklopol> as are most things that i do
22:02:44 <Hiato> Same here, no offense intended ;)
22:06:49 * Sgeo wants thoughts, comments, and ideas on PSOX, not apologies
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22:10:38 <oklopol> Sgeo: it's your project, we only wanna exploit it once it's ready
22:11:00 <oklopol> is why you're not getting that much help.
22:11:08 <Hiato> true, unfortunatly
22:11:50 <oklopol> anyone know a good algorithm for drawing an arbitrary graph on the screen :\
22:13:06 <Hiato> hrmm... no (unsurprisingly)
22:13:52 <Hiato> anyone know a cure for laziness? I need to write a prog, but the everpresent foe is there
22:16:00 <oklopol> how come bsmnt always get's to be on top :\
22:16:04 -!- oklopol has changed nick to aglopol.
22:18:30 <aglopol> that was what inspired the nick in the two seconds i gave thought to it
22:18:49 <aglopol> which may be why it's this crappy.
22:18:54 -!- aglopol has changed nick to oklofok.
22:19:15 <oklofok> but you gotta shuffle nicks once in a while, life gets boring otherwise
22:20:17 <Hiato> where I live there's a band called fokoffpolisikar (at least I think that's how it's spelled)
22:21:15 <Hiato> (that seemed to quiet everyone down...)
22:22:51 <Hiato> what's the 1/2 for?
22:26:16 <oklofok> well you know, it's kinda like !!11
22:26:34 <oklofok> except it's just half of it
22:29:45 <Hiato> alrighty, well I'm off, its 12:28am here in GMT+2 land. If anyone stumbles across any problems, finds any bugs, needs some info, makes any programmes, or anything relating to Full 0 just contact me at hiato1@gmail.com . Cheers :)
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22:31:07 <ehird`> The thing about writing a meta-circular interpreter is that you keep using new features while implementing new features you kept using before.
22:31:20 <ehird`> (meta-circular (meta-circular interpreter) writing)
22:32:29 <faxathisia> program the langauge until you notice that 90% of it can be implemented using the other 10%
22:33:57 <oklofok> yep, basically people always end up making their interpreters in SK
22:48:49 <ehird`> best self-interp is for the Meta language
22:48:58 <ehird`> the Meta language's commands:
22:49:38 <ehird`> m - Interpret some Meta code from the file specified next on the command line (advance the command line pointer forward)
22:49:48 <ehird`> I wonder what the eigenratio is. :P
22:52:24 <oklofok> if you can calculate the limit, then yes
22:52:51 <oklofok> in this case, you can't, since it approaches zero, although i now realize it's 1
22:53:03 <ehird`> like the lambda calculus, but instead of free lambdas, you use some base functions which return lambdas
22:55:31 <ehird`> oklofok: hmm, what base functions do you think would be needed?
22:56:10 <ehird`> instead of lambda arg val
22:56:13 <oklofok> like, no forming new lambdas, just a given set of lambdas you can use
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22:57:07 <ehird`> oklofok: instead of (lambda arg. val)
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22:58:30 <ehird`> but a few pre-defined functions which take some info and return a lambda
22:58:36 <ehird`> that you can compose to make full lambdas
22:59:48 <oklofok> i guess i see what you mean, although that is a bit vaguee
23:00:02 <ehird`> oklofok: yeah i don't know what functions you'd need
23:01:01 <oklofok> don't know what would be interesting, and what would take advantage of the fact you can supply some parameters for the lambda constructor.
23:02:52 <ehird`> these primitive-creators /must be implementable/ in 'pure' lambda calculus
23:03:26 <ehird`> define my-creator (lambda x. do stuff)
23:03:39 <ehird`> oklofok: quite, but its still feasable
23:03:49 <oklofok> if only i had more power than that of lambda calculus...
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23:16:57 <Slereah> http://paste-it.net/5459/raw/
23:17:18 <Slereah> Although writing chars is annoying.
23:18:02 <ehird`> oklofok: informal spec even?
23:18:09 <ehird`> just something that tells me how to parse it and what everything does!
23:18:13 <ehird`> you have no documentation of any command
23:18:17 <ehird`> or any list of them even
23:18:26 <Slereah> ehird` : Nop. Just a Turing machine.
23:18:33 <ehird`> Slereah: write a bf interp in it
23:18:50 <Slereah> ehird` : Well, I tried, but I have one problem.
23:18:56 <ehird`> oklofok: can it be not-public-apart-from-ehird-who-desperately-wants-to-either-implement-it-or-improve-that-it-is-impossible-to-implement
23:18:58 <oklofok> i have a somewhat public tutorial, but it's not complete, and neither is any spec of oklotalk.
23:19:20 <Slereah> sys.stdin.read doesn't seem to work on a PC.
23:19:34 <Slereah> And I'll be damned if I have to type "enter" after each BF instruction
23:19:36 <ehird`> oklofok: i still wanna see :<
23:19:49 <ehird`> Slereah: why can't you just use FILES
23:19:54 <oklofok> semantics of state lists aren't yet completely specified, for one
23:20:06 <Slereah> I'm not very file friendly.
23:20:09 <ehird`> oklofok: oklotalk is lexically scoped?
23:20:17 <ehird`> Slereah: code = open("filename").read()
23:20:26 <ehird`> Slereah: and i meant in the turing machine
23:20:29 <Slereah> Although I do plan on doing a bit that loads a file to one of the tape.
23:20:34 <ehird`> oklofok: i wanna spec/tutorial even if incomplete! :<
23:20:44 <Slereah> I have some of it on paper.
23:21:12 <oklofok> there's also first class pattern matching, which can be used for dynamic scoping
23:21:17 <Slereah> Although I won't use the *+<> notation to write it in.
23:21:31 <Slereah> It doesn't handle input or output.
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23:22:50 <oklofok> the semantics for that are so weird i don't even wanna know what you can do with the pattern lists :P
23:23:10 <Slereah> (There's also no way for the program to stop, but well)
23:23:44 <oklofok> basically, the current namespace is first-class, and you can actually carry a pattern around, and match it on the fly, possibly creating variables...
23:24:11 <oklofok> it's not pretty, and i like it <3
23:27:18 <oklofok> i really don't want you implementing it, i'm going to do it for my high school graduation, in case i fail to finish it, you can do it.
23:27:36 <oklofok> if you do it, it kinda takes the fun out of it.
23:28:01 <oklofok> i mean, for me, and from my point of view, that's important.
23:39:40 <ehird`> i won't ever fully implement it
23:39:44 <ehird`> and if i do it'll be crappy
23:39:47 <ehird`> and i won't release it
23:39:55 <ehird`> because i am going to try and do it in C
23:40:23 <ehird`> also if you do it for your graduation i think you might end up in the mental institution you belong in for creating oklotalk
23:42:02 <ehird`> oklofok: is it "oklotalk" or "Oklotalk" or "OkloTalk"
23:42:48 <ehird`> oklofok: also, does it have continuations :P
23:46:06 * Slereah tries to make some hamfisted file input on the tape
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23:48:22 <ehird`> {->[];L->'({_<:L}\L)+:L+'({_>:L}\L)} oklofok: is this still a valid qsort in oklotalk?
23:48:50 <oklofok> i think i've cut off a few length optimizations.
23:49:10 <ehird`> yay, you'r ealive, now answer my other qs too :P
23:50:01 <oklofok> lol, that was never valid :)
23:50:11 <oklofok> {->[];L->'({_<:L}\L)+.L+'({_>:L}\L)}
23:50:27 <ehird`> what about {->$;'(._<\:_)+.:+'$._<\:_}
23:50:47 <oklofok> oklotalk is soooo fun to read...
23:51:52 <ehird`> (oklotalk also has an OS under it that's somewhat attached to the language) <--- this is a joke right
23:52:21 <oklofok> nope. but it's definitely not going to be implemented in the next 10 years at least ;)
23:52:56 <oklofok> many languages have been created to be used as oses! ...at least they did it 30 years ago
23:53:27 <ehird`> oklofok: it's not tied to it though, right? just your impl :P
23:53:31 <oklofok> that latter one should be {->;'(._<\:_)+._+'$._>\:_}
23:53:44 <ehird`> i want my implementation to be between a script interpreter and a lisp system
23:53:46 <oklofok> the os is tied to oklotalk, not the other way around
23:54:06 <ehird`> OS is easily grabbable but it provides a unified interface specific to itself
23:54:26 <oklofok> okay, continuations? yes, oklotalk has those, and since namespaces and the call stack are first class, you could just implement them in oklotalk
23:55:11 <ehird`> ok, the call stack is first class. no using the c stack then
23:55:15 <oklofok> continuations are done via the special recursion function "'"... although don't remember how that worked right now ;)
23:55:23 <oklofok> i should write stuff down...
23:55:51 <oklofok> everything is so dynamic there's no way to be efficient.
23:55:58 <oklofok> at least without use of the type system
23:56:53 <oklofok> you know, sometimes i wonder how much features i've actually thought of, without even thinking how hard they are to implement... there seems to be a complex feature for everything...
23:57:03 <oklofok> for example, the 5 types of lists
23:57:29 <oklofok> although, with the new runtime parsing, i think 2/5 are implementable with oklotalk itself
23:58:06 <oklofok> unless explicitly compiled, a function can be reparsed at runtime why not...
23:58:39 <oklofok> okay, tomorrow i'll start writing the spec again... asdf
23:58:41 <ehird`> i will not be compiling or optimizing oklotalk
23:58:48 <ehird`> that's just impossible :-)
23:58:53 <oklofok> well, you can make a partial interpreter.
23:59:13 <ehird`> methinks oklotalk compilers if they ever exist will include big chunks of interpreter
23:59:26 <ehird`> maybe it'll take as long as Lisp took :-)
23:59:30 <ehird`> and lisp isn't even THAT dynamic!
23:59:44 <oklofok> they must, since you can in theory just reparse anything at anytime...