2007-12-01: 00:17:47 -!- chuck has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 00:25:26 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 00:53:58 -!- Tritonio_ has quit ("Bye..."). 00:54:27 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 01:11:45 -!- Slereah has joined. 02:06:54 -!- johnl has joined. 02:41:51 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:42:07 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:42:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:49:42 heeeeeeeeeeey 02:49:58 oerjan: Are you at all familiar with the rules of B Nomic? 02:50:07 no 02:50:26 Oh well. . . I bet you'll still enjoy laughing at this refresh proposal in B: http://b.nomic.net/index.php/Refresh_Proposals/AFO 02:51:13 Well that is certainly refreshing. 02:51:34 * pikhq is to blame for that. 02:51:51 However, I blame the Association of Federated Organizations for putting me up to it. 02:53:24 * oerjan just recently reread about Agora's chromatic proposals. 02:53:35 Chromatic proposals? 02:54:02 we started given proposals to repeal the whole ruleset color names :) 02:54:05 *giving 02:54:17 LMAO 02:54:32 Might I have a link to read that? 02:55:34 hm actually it was just mentioned at the end of http://www.nomic.net/~nomicwiki/index.php/BlackRepeals 02:55:46 (which were the first) 02:56:52 i assume yours is also a Terrible Proposal (i think we invented that term too) 02:57:46 oh, it says Nomic World 02:58:00 well, i can just barely count that as "we", too 02:58:10 LMAO 02:58:18 And yes, mine is also a Terrible Proposal. 02:58:26 Not for scamming purposes: just for something to laugh at. 02:58:48 w00t. 02:58:52 I have two Agoran offices. 02:59:13 (Ambassador and Scorekeepor, if it means anything to you) 03:00:16 certainly 03:04:21 * pikhq needs to fix up the reports for those two offices. . . 03:05:43 Ambassador last published in August, Scorekeepor last published in September. Ick. 03:16:05 Interesting: I and the AFO registered on the same day. 03:17:33 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:17:37 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:31:15 -!- Slereah has quit. 03:50:00 * pikhq is finished rectifying Scorekeepor. . . 03:53:06 * oerjan is waiting for someone to "rectify" the obvious :) 03:54:12 XD 03:54:44 and then we can POUND on them 03:55:22 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:00:42 where is it possible to go without knowing another language? 04:00:54 also the netherlands, i hear 04:04:08 Heh. 04:24:29 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:24:57 * pikhq publishes his first two reports 04:32:43 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:13:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:14:46 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:14:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:19:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:59:00 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:59:01 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 06:05:55 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:16:14 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:07:17 -!- adp10390 has joined. 07:11:48 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:27:14 Someone please translate this request into Esperanto. 07:29:42 Ne. 07:30:03 * pikhq goes to sleep. Not many Esperantists in here, BTW. 07:31:30 It was worth a try. I read the wiki and was duly amused. 07:32:14 something something cxi tiun something in Esperanton 07:32:24 perhaps 07:33:03 i _have_ seen esperanto used in here, btw 07:33:16 but it's a while ago 07:33:50 Now if the request had been translated perfectly into another language, would someone then have to carry out that request? 07:34:51 Ne. 07:35:16 I just realized that would be like asking "translate this into english" 07:35:26 except in North Korea. 07:35:45 How's that? 07:35:57 there you _better_ do what you're told 07:36:44 Ah. Hehe, we may be talking about a different "have to" here. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:11:19 -!- oerjan has quit ("Something"). 08:37:30 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:39:07 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:54:19 -!- SEO_DUDE has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:13:48 -!- adp10390 has quit ("Leaving"). 10:26:41 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:27:17 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 10:55:46 -!- oklopol has joined. 10:55:49 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:30:01 -!- puzzlet has quit ("Lost terminal"). 11:59:54 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:03:40 -!- jix has joined. 13:15:12 -!- MRet has joined. 13:16:32 Please produce an activation code for Blaze Media Pro 7.1 13:24:49 5 13:27:10 Blaze Media Pro: You have entered invalid registration information. If you have registered, please try again. 13:30:58 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:31:00 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:47:48 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:11:41 Please produce an activation code for Blaze Media Pro 7.1 14:13:53 stuhfoo 14:15:22 Blaze Media Pro: You have entered invalid registration information. If you have registered, please try again. 14:48:59 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:01:58 -!- ihope has joined. 15:03:09 -!- ihope has quit (Client Quit). 15:04:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:15:46 -!- MRet has quit ("PJIRC forever!"). 16:31:48 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:31:58 -!- jix has joined. 16:56:35 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 17:21:14 -!- Avkon has joined. 17:22:16 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:27:20 -!- Avkon has quit. 18:01:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 18:43:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:43:21 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 19:28:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:28:48 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:46:01 -!- chuck has joined. 20:08:51 -!- calamari has joined. 20:31:26 what's up, folks? 20:36:44 I'm contemplating trying out KDE4. 20:38:15 i'm slowly writing a parser, and trying to figure out a name for the lang 20:46:30 oklopol: what class of language is it? 20:47:33 non-pure message passing 20:48:06 kinda like erlang, but with some quite evil features 20:48:51 somewhat object oriented too... hard to classify 20:50:04 it's imperative, with pattern matching; you can use the "functions" (== messages an object understands) as normal mutable variables, but they have full pattern matching 20:51:34 one fun feature i put in it, is the sandbox-mode, there is a call syntax, that makes every function call and sent message go straight to the original caller 20:53:35 {Fnc A B}, Fnc is called with A and B as params, but in sandbox-mode, so if Fnc does addition, say, the object that made the {Fnc A B} call will get a message [!! Fnc + args Fnc gave +]; if it's addition, it can just perform the addition, and send the result back, but if it's a mean system call or something, it can kill the execution of Fnc 20:55:40 the language has lisp syntax when you're doing "math", like (* 1 4), but what this actually does is find the innermost enclosing object that can handle the pattern "* arg..", and send it to that, waiting for the returned message 20:56:28 usually the StdObj enclosing every program would catch multiplication, but you can easily override it. 20:56:50 whoops 20:56:55 did i ramble 20:56:59 xD 22:39:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:42:32 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:08:49 -!- chuck has quit (Connection reset by peer). 23:17:58 -!- chuck has joined. 2007-12-02: 00:26:32 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:27:40 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:50:27 competing with your own game ai's is always disappointing, if you win, your ai sucks, if you lose, you suck 00:51:20 If you win, you suck. If you lose, you suck. 00:51:21 The end. 00:51:44 basically 00:52:01 the half-empty glass 00:52:16 o 00:52:22 The glass that's just too big. 01:01:19 If you solve the game and make it so that the AI literally cannot lose, it's different. If you win, you suck, if you lose, you're brilliant. 01:09:29 True. 01:09:43 Unless you're solving something too damned simple. 01:09:48 (Tic-Tac-Toe) 01:10:04 Then, no matter what you do, you suck: who the hell bothers solving something that simple? :p 01:10:21 i used to beat all the other kids at tic-tac-toe 01:10:23 i thought i was so smart 01:10:55 I used to be able to force a tie or win. 01:11:05 yeah, that's what i mean 01:11:16 (if both sides have perfect play, tie is the best that can be done) 01:12:15 (duh) 01:12:18 i never considered tic-tac-toe a game 01:12:33 i can force a tie or win in nim too :)))) 01:12:39 hooray for me! 01:12:44 nim? 01:12:47 I consider it a trivial game. 01:12:48 I can force a tie or win in vim. 01:12:55 nim is a trivial game 01:13:05 But can you do that in Emacs? 01:13:50 -!- chuck has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:14:20 -!- chuck has joined. 01:32:35 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 02:18:25 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 02:25:17 -!- puzzlet__ has joined. 02:30:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:31:29 f(0) = 0; \lim_{x->\infty} f(x) = 1 02:31:31 what's f? 02:35:17 -!- puzzlet__ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:35:21 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:35:35 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:40:54 1 - 1/(x + 1) 02:42:34 are there any others? 02:44:05 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:44:06 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 02:54:21 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:54:26 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:59:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:03:46 are there any others? 03:03:54 an uncountable number in fact 03:04:15 i think i found a good one 03:04:27 1-1/(sqrt(x)/n + 1) 03:06:38 1 - exp(-x) is another simple one 03:09:53 f(x)=x/(x-1) 03:10:47 dblog: not defined in 1 03:10:47 or for that matter, f(x)=x/(x+c) where c is any nonzero constant. 03:11:00 dbc i mean 03:11:18 hmm actually 03:11:47 c=1 gives bsmntbombdood's original if you rewrite a bit 03:12:01 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 03:12:10 Yeah. Was there a criterion that said the function had to be total? 03:12:27 not really 03:12:32 continuous in [0, \infty] 03:12:40 oh, continuous 03:12:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:12:52 Okay. Then we have to use a positive value for c. 03:13:23 i was going to say there were _more_ of them than the number of reals, but continuity whittles that down to equal number 03:15:09 f(2*x) = x * sqrt(2 - x**2) 03:15:44 is there one that satisfies that condition too? 03:16:01 what condition? 03:16:24 f(2*x) = x * sqrt(2 - x**2) 03:17:07 Is that a condition and not a definition? 03:17:09 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:17:36 i say it's a definition, which means there is only one f, although a definition is sort of a condition too 03:17:41 oh right 03:18:20 hrm 03:18:28 for one thing, that one is imaginary for big x 03:18:32 Was about to say. 03:19:13 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:20:11 difficult 03:21:33 another one: arctan x / (pi/2) 03:23:28 well 03:24:15 i'm using this function to map values in [0, \infty) into [0, 1) to give to OR 03:24:45 so i would like f(2*x) to be the same as or(f(x), f(x)) 03:25:29 huh? 03:25:35 ok 03:25:39 what's or 03:26:30 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 03:26:39 or(a,b,n=1) = (a**n+b**n - a**n*b**n)**(1/n) 03:27:09 um that n=1 makes little sense? 03:28:21 n defaults to 1 if it's called with two arguments 03:28:45 otoh generalizing to n is obvious i think 03:29:35 so first, a+b-a*b 03:30:25 is that associative? 03:30:56 yes 03:31:21 i can just do this recursively using that definition 03:31:23 a+(b+c-b*c)-a*(b+c-b*c) = a+b+c -b*c-a*b-a*c +a*b*c 03:31:30 using f(.0001) = .0001 or such 03:31:34 right... a bell rings 03:32:16 that's not even too slow either 03:32:37 logarithms were originally calculated that way, i think 03:32:51 -!- puzzlet__ has joined. 03:34:17 ah, of course a+b-a*b = 1 - (1-a)*(1-b) 03:34:56 de morgan's law essentially 03:35:24 so f(x) = 1 - exp(x) 03:35:51 or 1 - exp(-x), which i think i already mentioned 03:36:14 huh? 03:36:22 f(x) = 1 - exp(-x) 03:36:52 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:37:03 hot damn 03:37:54 and for other n? 03:38:31 f(x) = (1 - exp(-x))^(1/n) i think 03:39:38 no 03:39:39 basically all your or's are equivalent to multiplication except for applying to a function to the initial arguments and its inverse to the result 03:41:00 so just apply that inverse function to exp(-x) and you get f(x) 03:41:21 what's incorrect about the n case? 03:42:25 it grows way faster than it should 03:43:07 oh. well you can replace ^n with any other invertible function in both or and f 03:43:29 which ^n? 03:43:31 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:43:49 ^n by the function and ^(1/n) by its inverse. all of them. 03:43:59 er, ** 03:44:22 i don't get it 03:44:42 for g(x) = x**n you have 03:45:31 g(1 - or(a,b)) = g(1-a) * g(1-b) 03:45:37 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:45:46 and get f(x) = g(1 - exp(-x)) 03:45:53 er... 03:46:09 and get g(f(x)) = 1 - exp(-x) 03:46:28 so just pick your g 03:47:29 yep still don't get it 03:47:37 no matter how you choose it, it gets cancelled out and f(a+b) = or(f(a),f(b)) 03:48:01 did i make an error somewhere? 03:48:47 lessee 03:48:57 just for n=1 03:52:14 maybe i got something inverted 03:52:47 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:52:48 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 03:54:50 or(f(a),f(b)) = 1 - (1 - f(a))*(1 - f(b)) = 1 - exp(-a)*exp(-b) = f(a+b) 03:55:39 for general n 03:55:57 ok... 03:56:20 -!- puzzlet__ has quit (Connection timed out). 03:56:33 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:56:49 or(a,b) = (1 - (1 - a**n)*(1 - b**n))**(1/n) 03:57:14 f(x) = (1 - exp(-x))**(1/n) 03:58:26 or(f(a),f(b)) = (1 - (1 - f(a)**n)*(1 - f(b)**n))**(1/n) = (1 - exp(-a)*exp(-b))**(1/n) = f(a+b) 04:03:21 perhaps a more abstract view... 04:04:50 hmph, hard to draw categorical diagrams in irc 04:06:37 hrm ok that works 04:06:42 weird 04:06:55 anyway say you have some functions + : (A,A) -> A, or : (B,B) -> B and f : A -> B such that f(x+y) = or(f(x),f(y)) 04:07:30 (while A = B in our case it is simpler to understand by treating them as separate i think) 04:08:02 now add a function g : B -> C which happens to be invertible 04:08:13 i got it 04:08:19 thanks a lot 04:08:29 ok 04:09:01 you're welcome 04:18:00 -!- chuck has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 06:45:35 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:45:35 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:52 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:04:05 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:49:27 -!- calamari has left (?). 08:50:04 -!- RedDak has joined. 09:16:24 -!- dbc has quit (Client Quit). 09:55:56 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 11:35:39 -!- jix has joined. 11:39:34 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 12:03:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:03:57 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:08:44 -!- Chadwick|359 has joined. 12:28:44 oerjan: in case you read logs, A B ­­!A !B doesn't work as you said 12:53:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:53:43 -!- puzzlet has joined. 13:25:28 -!- Chadwick|359 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:56:14 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:18:22 hey? 14:30:57 ho? 15:24:46 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:24:56 -!- jix has joined. 15:47:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:50:49 oklopol: what A B !A !B are you talking about? 15:51:24 does it suffice to say !A == not A? 15:52:20 !A == inverse of A 15:52:22 Huh? 15:52:37 okay okay, rubik 15:53:07 i may have been imprecise 15:54:02 can you be precise then? :P 15:54:17 but anything which is not moved by either A or !A is unchanged by the combination, and similarly for B or !B 15:55:30 hmm... i'm pretty sure that's incorrect :\ 15:55:56 if A is a simple twist, and B is another twist where the twists share an edge 15:56:26 then the... blocks *only* B touches will change. 15:56:37 twist of a face? 15:56:41 yes 15:57:11 * oerjan picks his cube out of the drawer 15:57:42 cube one edge forward then left forward twist, right forward twist, left backward twist, right backward twist 15:58:12 argh, i cannot turn those words into movements 15:58:17 :) 15:58:20 wish i had a webcam 15:58:29 i don' 15:58:35 t know the real terms 15:58:49 right forward twist 15:59:07 meant the you have your right hand on the forward-right side 15:59:35 argh there is an annoying noise around 15:59:44 when the cube is rotated so that one of the edges is pointing forward... err.. not sure it's an edge, actually, i mean the intersection of two faces... 16:00:29 -!- chuck has joined. 16:00:37 ok let's say i have a corner pointing toward me 16:00:46 what's a corner :D 16:00:55 like the corner of 3 faces? 16:01:06 not of 2? 16:01:07 red face up, yellow down right, blue down left 16:01:14 okay 16:01:44 i have it like that now 16:02:08 so which faces do i turn? 16:02:13 now if you rotate yellow cw, blue ccw, yellow ccw and blue cw 16:02:34 yep 16:02:54 now the thingie that was below yellow 16:03:02 is to the left of yellow 16:03:32 even though it's not touched by B == the blue twist... 16:03:46 or, then i misunderstood what you meant by B's domain 16:03:59 i thought you meant what it'd have touched if applied as such. 16:04:24 a blue twist wouldn't have any effect on what's below yellow 16:04:51 i mean the actual blocks and tiny faces moved 16:05:23 hmm? 16:05:24 i.e. it counts as touched by B if A moves it into position to be touched by B first 16:05:58 right 16:06:48 it's much more realistic, but much less usable then :) 16:07:58 but still usable 16:09:15 i wonder how much societies with infinite population have been studied 16:10:02 argh messed up my cube 16:11:05 whew got it 16:11:06 since every node can still only be connected to finitely many other nodes (given a finite number of dimensions for the world they move in, and a finite size of nodes [people]), they couldn't actually produce an infinite amount of products for everyone in finite time 16:11:29 hard to concentrate on the cube now that that came to mind xD 16:12:42 i'm not sure sociologists are that interested in that kind of stuff... or they'd chosen something more theoretical to study in the first place 16:13:03 if sociology is what i think it is 16:13:19 anyhow, i mean the correct thing if that's not it 16:13:24 i do recall looking at some work on continuous populations 16:13:30 :D 16:13:33 cool 16:14:18 although that is mostly to replace large populations with something calculus can work with, i think 16:15:48 right, that is a bit different 16:16:11 me and a collaborator had some hope of connecting a generalization of measures we were working on to that theory. but nothing real came of it 16:17:32 generalization of measures... measuring what? :D 16:18:29 only open and closed sets have measures in that theory 16:19:08 and the union of two sets can have larger measure than the sum if they are not disjoint 16:19:17 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:19:37 he did his PhD on them 16:20:24 umm... isn't the complement of "open and closed sets" the empty set?? 16:20:26 *-? 16:20:52 can a set be other than open or closed 16:20:53 um, the sets that are either open or closed (or sometimes both) 16:21:04 er, certainly 16:21:08 oh 16:21:30 okay, now what's the "measure" of a set? 16:21:45 e.g. the rationals are a subset of the reals which is neither open nor closed 16:22:13 hmm... is it because it's infinite? 16:22:19 hmm... 16:22:20 no 16:22:34 well partly, since all finite sets are closed in the reals 16:23:03 yeah 16:23:14 but e.g. a closed interval is not a finite set 16:23:17 "in the reals", but not always? 16:23:41 true 16:23:42 general topological spaces are _very_ general 16:24:07 although you usually add some nicer axioms 16:24:23 and single points being closed is one of the first 16:24:50 finite sets follow from that, since the union of two closed sets is closed 16:25:22 okie. 16:25:41 not sure what you mean by "single points being closed" 16:26:10 a set containing a single element (point) of the space in question 16:27:10 now being closed is also very general, the topology of a space is simply defined by which subsets are considered closed (or equivalently, open) 16:27:43 the complement of a closed set is open, and vice versa 16:30:04 right 16:30:38 lol i'd forgotten how great music my composer program created 16:37:18 -!- calamari has joined. 17:33:15 pikhq: new minus! http://www.kiwisbybeat.com/minus.html 17:57:20 -!- chuck has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 17:59:16 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 17:59:20 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 17:59:32 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Client Quit). 18:07:01 -!- chuck has joined. 18:08:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 18:22:08 -!- chuck has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:06:39 w00ts! 19:11:41 * SimonRC thinks that Colorforth rox 19:24:44 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 19:24:44 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:28:43 -!- ihope has joined. 20:28:50 I'm suddenly wishing Haskell were Redivider. 20:32:49 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:34:13 I guess Haskell does have Parsec, though, which obviously is Redivider-like. 20:35:13 ihope: why?# 20:35:19 and, for that matter, what? 20:37:37 Oh, I just have a simple parsing job that would be annoying with patterns.. 20:37:42 s/.// 20:38:13 * ihope ponders a melding of Redivider and /// 21:11:53 ihope: why code in haskell then, and not in redivider? 21:16:47 why not imbed redivider in haskell? 21:36:59 -!- chuck has joined. 21:59:20 -!- Jontte has joined. 22:01:13 hi * 2 22:01:31 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:08:33 hi * -1 22:11:57 oklopol: Redivider doesn't have support for threading. 22:12:21 If it did, I'd probably use it :-P 22:19:58 -!- dbc has joined. 22:28:06 -!- chuck_ has joined. 22:31:10 -!- chuck has quit (Connection reset by peer). 22:47:23 o 22:47:26 sleepz -> 22:47:35 ditto 22:47:39 * SimonRC goes to bed 22:58:56 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:58:56 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:09:00 -!- ihope_ has joined. 23:11:15 You know, if in a type system, all "forall"s must be explicitly stated with a dependent function arrow, I think every value has exactly one type. 23:12:10 As in no more Id : a => a; only Id : All \a (a => a), which would take a value for a as its first argument. 23:13:10 And then you'd have stuff like Id Integer 3 instead of just Id 3. 23:16:42 -!- chuck_ has quit (Connection reset by peer). 23:41:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:42:57 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:56:38 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 2007-12-03: 00:11:33 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 00:19:41 -!- puzzlet__ has joined. 00:21:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:48:35 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Connection timed out). 00:49:38 -!- puzzlet__ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:57:52 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:04:27 -!- faxathisia has joined. 01:10:59 -!- chuck_ has joined. 01:11:29 -!- chuck_ has changed nick to chuck. 01:35:06 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 01:35:07 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:49:17 -!- calamari_ has joined. 02:08:24 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 02:24:43 -!- chuck_ has joined. 02:25:38 -!- chuck has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:38:57 -!- chuck_ has changed nick to chuck. 02:41:53 -!- ihope has quit ("Lost terminal"). 03:05:47 -!- chuck has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:35:58 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:36:05 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:51:13 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:01:18 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:01:25 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:06:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:06:39 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:07:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:14:05 -!- puzzlet has quit ("Lost terminal"). 06:14:19 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:36:34 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:37:39 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:41:51 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:11:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:23:17 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:24:22 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:13:50 does game of life in SQL count? :p 08:13:53 http://rafb.net/p/Slz1iX73.html 08:14:10 I'm not sure this is very good (I didn't know any SQL before) 08:14:15 but works 08:28:04 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:28:53 -!- puzzlet has joined. 08:42:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("nn"). 09:16:04 (Improvements http://rafb.net/p/hQQCf855.html ) 11:52:37 -!- n0nsense has joined. 12:23:35 -!- n0nsense has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:30:51 -!- chuck has joined. 12:45:28 -!- chuck has quit (Connection reset by peer). 12:47:53 -!- chuck has joined. 12:51:18 -!- chuck has quit (Client Quit). 13:26:12 -!- n0nsense has joined. 13:28:21 hello everybody 13:32:55 hi 13:36:51 do you knor 13:36:55 sry 13:37:04 know omgrofl 13:38:57 I think it's great ^^. I want to extend it and add sockets etc. to it and then program a http server in it ^^ 13:40:56 i know now 13:42:45 there are very little esolangs with good support for pretty much anything, so i'd say go for it 13:43:18 by support i mean io stuff 13:45:05 -!- jix has joined. 13:48:04 hm 14:36:09 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 15:06:24 -!- n0nsense has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:24:57 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:25:07 -!- jix has joined. 15:28:50 -!- helios24 has joined. 15:29:08 -!- helios24_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:05:18 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:22:39 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:31:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:02:19 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:02:21 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 17:27:43 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:28:48 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:45:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:30:47 -!- faxathisia has quit. 19:18:41 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:18:57 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:19:05 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:23:58 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:24:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:28:59 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:32:20 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 20:28:14 -!- cmeme has quit (Connection timed out). 20:55:34 seen ehird` 20:55:36 !seen ehird` 20:55:38 ~seen ehird` 20:55:40 Huh? 20:55:53 ~lastspoke ehird` 20:56:11 !lastspoke ehird` 20:56:14 Huh? 21:03:16 !kick Sgeo 21:03:18 Huh? 21:03:29 !hit SimonRC 21:03:32 Huh? 21:04:05 !o 21:04:08 Huh? 21:34:57 -!- faxathisia has joined. 21:35:32 !hi guys 21:35:36 Huh? 21:36:24 !Stop confusing EgoBot :( 21:36:26 Huh? 21:38:11 i think you should take out that "feature" ;) 21:42:25 Probably ... seemed like a good idea at the time, for e.g. !brainfluck or !grass 21:43:27 !bf >++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<.>+++++[<+++++++++>-]<.-------------.>+++++[<-------->-]<-. 21:43:30 Huh? 21:43:37 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 21:44:04 ... what ze bork? 21:44:08 !bf . 21:44:12 Oh, you jerk :P 21:44:21 *slaps self in head* 21:45:32 GregorR, hm? 21:45:41 is that whitespace crooked? 21:45:52 Hi faxathisia and puzzlet 21:46:00 hi everyone 21:46:03 and good night -> 21:46:14 hiya 21:46:27 night oklopol 21:46:48 G'night oklopol k 21:46:56 s/ k// 21:48:26 hi# 21:53:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:00:30 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:07:50 faaaaaaaaax 22:08:22 :] 22:08:34 I wrote game of life in SQL 22:08:45 and square root 22:09:03 write bf text gen 22:09:19 I did in lisp. 22:09:26 not good enough 22:09:28 :(( 22:09:30 you're right 22:09:32 make it better 22:09:39 but I don't know how 22:09:48 lurn how 22:10:16 I guess I should try the idea of building a small language ontop of brainfuck 22:10:23 which has primitives like copy, add, sub, mul etc 22:10:32 which you can associate a brainfuck cost to 22:10:57 but I don't have any idea how you'd actually compose them to make a program that does something (which minimizing the cost) 22:11:13 so I basicallly go full circle and this ends up harder than before.... which is why I didn't try it 22:11:36 what do you think about this possible approach? 22:14:25 i don't think it's helpful 22:14:35 that's the conclusion I came to! 22:14:39 it's basically just compiling to pebble 22:16:41 * faxathisia has no other ideas 22:17:24 i wonder if anyone else has tried to implement kolgomorov complexity 22:20:01 hmmm 22:20:09 maybe use berlekamp-massey 22:20:22 how big do you think an lsfr implementation would be in brainfuck 22:20:48 ...holy shit 22:20:54 You did you know about this! 22:21:17 sounds like it would be really great for medium/longer texts 22:21:50 text is rarely linearly recurrent 22:22:27 so the lsfr would probably be long, but it could have few taps so be shortly implemented 22:22:43 *lfsr 23:00:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 23:03:27 -!- Jontte has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 23:04:15 -!- Jontte has joined. 23:39:32 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 23:42:39 -!- ehird` has joined. 2007-12-04: 00:12:14 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:12:18 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:35:54 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:30:04 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:30:32 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:45:11 -!- cmeme has joined. 03:11:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:12:08 Hey, oerjan. 03:12:19 * pikhq enjoys nomic recursion 03:12:29 morn morn 03:12:32 oh oh 03:12:32 hi oerjan 03:12:51 my idea with converting game of life into minesweeper and solving it worked btw 03:13:05 but someone wrote a program that's hundreds of times faster just by using search and replace on the input 03:13:24 heh 03:13:32 so I have to learn CLP! 03:13:35 but it was good 03:13:48 whats nomic recursion? 03:14:11 a game of nomic inside a game of nomic 03:14:23 More than just that. 03:14:43 Agora's Child is a member of Agora. . . I'm trying to make it so that Agora is a member of Agora's Child. 03:14:50 ujh 03:14:58 what the hell is nomic o_o 03:15:15 * faxathisia complains about long FAQs 03:15:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic 03:15:56 oh geez 03:16:00 my childhood was wasted 03:16:08 if I knew about this .. things would have been better 03:17:14 o_O 03:18:09 And yes, I am insane. 03:18:55 -!- Paro has joined. 03:19:46 Please say "Hello, World!" 03:20:25 Hei verden! 03:20:42 ぜんぜん！ 03:20:48 Please say "Hello, World!" in English 03:20:54 Never! 03:21:01 O.O 03:21:19 Please say "Hello, world!" in Japanese! 03:21:32 that was awesome you two 03:21:49 * pikhq bows 03:21:53 oٟ 03:21:59 Wrong. 03:22:12 もしもし、世界。 03:22:13 * Paro is filled with sorrow. 03:26:15 Smil til verden og verden smiler til deg 03:26:40 !bf +[.+] 03:26:44 03:26:54 hahaha 03:26:58 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:27:01 oh crap.. 03:27:16 -!- EgoBot has quit (Excess Flood). 03:27:19 EgoBot: !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹ŒŽ‘’“”•–—˜™š›œžŸ ¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬ ®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ 03:27:21 in PM 03:27:22 sorry 03:27:36 lol 03:35:29 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 03:45:07 -!- immibis has joined. 03:48:37 -!- Paro has quit. 05:43:15 -!- calamari has joined. 05:49:39 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. Don't push the red button!"). 05:56:34 -!- oerjan has quit ("Coffee"). 06:31:03 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:54:08 -!- immibis has joined. 07:29:21 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. He who laughs last, thinks slowest"). 07:46:54 -!- graue has quit ("Leaving"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:44:31 is there any like 08:44:37 sub-turing language design channel ? 08:44:38 :| 08:47:09 there aren't enough good subturing languages! 09:42:56 -!- jix has joined. 09:58:18 -!- JontteG has joined. 10:03:36 It's easy to make one. You just put a rigid and moderately low storage limit on any Turing-complete language. Yawn. 10:03:44 bah 10:03:47 not like that 10:04:14 things like regex, SQL, The Haskell Type System 10:04:31 (I really don't know that many interesting subturing languages) 10:04:45 HTML, too. 10:04:49 yes! 10:04:57 all capable of solving some interesting problems 10:05:00 Context-sensitive grammars. 10:09:07 -!- JontteG has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:13:36 ok wow 10:13:41 I have to find something to do with Context-sensitive grammars 10:13:55 because I haven't really much intuition about what they're capable of at all 10:28:22 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 10:44:38 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:45:08 -!- Jontte has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:57:47 -!- Jontte has joined. 11:06:04 -!- Jontte has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:07:32 -!- Jontte has joined. 11:16:00 -!- Jontte has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:04:07 -!- jix has joined. 13:04:48 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 13:04:56 -!- jix has joined. 13:10:22 -!- Jontte has joined. 14:05:49 -!- faxathisia has quit. 14:08:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:17:15 are there any small sets of these "subturing" languages faxathisia was speaking of that are together TC? 14:22:09 i don't know about those he mentioned 14:22:37 but if you take a turing-complete language and split it up into small pieces that are each not TC... 14:22:54 like just K and just S from combinatory logic... 14:23:15 heh 14:23:35 that's what we call "vacuously true" 14:23:36 or split away [] from brainfuck... 14:23:52 I was primarily wondering about existing languages 14:24:13 creating a language for the purpose of this idea doesn't really accomplish much 14:25:29 well there are undecidable type systems for one thing 14:27:35 apparently you cannot combine haskell-like type systems with subtyping without making the result undecidable, which i think usually is shown by finding TC sub-problems 14:31:28 hm 14:33:19 actually ocaml manages somewhat, i think you may need so-called higher rank polymorphism as well 14:36:59 hm i just thought of one thing: while all regex languages are context-free, regex languages are closed under complement but not context-free ones 14:38:10 so if you combine the features, the result is TC 14:39:11 (as mentioned here a while ago, it is undecidable whether a CF language includes _all_ strings of the alphabet) 14:45:54 yeah 14:56:53 sql is subturing? 14:58:22 no way of looping, they say 15:32:41 -!- faxathisia has joined. 15:48:12 -!- puzzlet has quit ("Lost terminal"). 15:48:32 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:21:00 I would hope that SQL is intentionally sub-TC 16:21:37 that's the impression i got 16:22:01 I find it very similar to haskell 16:22:06 but maybe I'm just imagining it? 16:22:13 Geeze, raggin' on Haskell. 16:22:21 no... 16:22:27 I thought SQL is really nice to use 16:22:29 and a good language 16:22:50 Geeze, raggin' on logic and reason. 16:23:10 Really though, SQL is fine for its purpose :P 16:23:16 well I only wrote square root and game of life yet 16:23:24 I was going to do a raytracer but I didn't bother yet 16:23:31 And unlike many other special purpose languages, it hasn't escaped its niche to become a crapsy general purpose language. 16:24:22 I want more subturing languages to try :( 16:24:40 Erm, are you saying you wrote the game of life in SQL? >_O 16:24:54 I assume it's a query that's called repetitively? 16:24:58 and I thought it came out really nicely! 16:25:16 yeah there is a query which runs a single iteration 16:25:29 you could try Epigram or Agda >:) 16:25:33 OK, that makes more sense :P 16:25:40 http://rafb.net/p/fy3e5L63.html 16:25:41 Since SQL is in fact not TC, and the game of life is :P 16:26:00 (It doesnt' work in sqlite but you can split it in two to use sqlite) 16:26:33 well I couldn't get xemacs to work so I don't think I can use epigram here 16:26:41 but I would like to try it sometime 16:26:58 * oerjan thought he was joking 16:27:25 regardless.. Epigram seems cool 16:27:38 seeing as those languages are probably _more_ complicated than many that are TC 16:28:13 doesn't bother me :D 16:28:38 Come now, pushdown automata aren't more complicated than Turing machines. 16:28:48 ^^^ Counterexample :P 16:28:54 well i guess many people in this channel wouldn't be... 16:29:09 GregorR: i was referring to epigram and agda 16:29:21 Ahhh, specific choices, zomg 16:29:38 or dependently typed languages in general 16:30:01 the dependency almost forces a terminating language, iiuc 16:30:11 since _types_ have to be terminating 16:31:39 (disclosure: i haven't used any of them) 16:32:10 I like what i've seen of Coq.. the typechecking algorithm asks you for help! 16:34:03 hm i recall trying to get Coq started but something was wrong with the UI that made me annoyed enough to uninstall it. 16:34:26 You can use Proof General mode in emacs 16:34:34 although some people are allergic to emacs or something 16:34:45 anyway Proof General seems good 16:34:51 *cough*, *cack*, *aackpthoo* 16:35:31 well I really don't know what to do 16:36:01 what's the shortest regex to match a set of strings is a decidable problems isn't it? 16:37:10 in principle, since you can exhaustively test them... 16:37:32 once you have one 16:39:52 the SQL language allows for looping via recursion, but it intentionally tries to detect recursion and halt 16:40:10 and you can decide whether two regular expressions match the same set 17:27:51 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:28:01 -!- jix has joined. 19:07:47 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 19:11:34 -!- faxathisia has quit. 19:11:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 20:00:19 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 20:23:06 i thought equivelance of regexs was undecideable 20:38:49 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:41:30 http://support.microsoft.com/kb/261186 21:48:19 Hahaha 21:50:56 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:59:25 old 21:59:30 i am making saurkraut! 22:08:04 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:39:36 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 2007-12-05: 02:14:15 -!- faxathisia has joined. 03:26:03 -!- immibis has joined. 03:34:31 -!- cmeme has quit (Excess Flood). 03:36:50 -!- cmeme has joined. 03:42:01 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 03:42:12 -!- cmeme has joined. 03:47:22 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 03:47:33 -!- cmeme has joined. 03:52:43 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 03:52:54 -!- cmeme has joined. 03:58:04 -!- cmeme has quit (Client Quit). 03:58:15 -!- cmeme has joined. 04:03:26 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:03:36 -!- cmeme has joined. 04:04:02 -!- faxathisia has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:07:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:08:19 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:22:59 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. Easy as 3.14159265358979323846..."). 04:48:03 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:20:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:23:10 i thought equivelance of regexs was undecideable 06:23:46 not the FDA-equivalent basic form. extensions are a different matter. 06:23:51 er, FSA 06:24:00 hmm 06:24:47 basically you have all boolean operators, so you can calculate the xor and test for emptiness :) 06:24:48 what's the algorithm to do it? 06:25:51 probably want to convert it into an FSA first 06:26:01 sure 06:26:56 on a deterministic one, not is easy. with non-determinism, or is easy. 06:27:28 mix this with the usual algorithm to convert D -> N 06:30:55 hm possibly and can be found deterministically too 06:31:32 by pairing states 06:32:26 which means you don't need D -> N conversion. 06:32:54 er N -> D, D -> N is just inclusion 06:42:01 -!- Sabskm has joined. 07:13:14 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:32:43 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("nn"). 09:33:19 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lurch, er Lunch"). 10:54:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:03:37 Easier, perhaps, convert both regexs to minimum-state DFA and then just compare them state by state. 11:03:54 That can be done automatically. 11:04:14 (I mean, automatically and fairly easily) 11:07:13 * ais523 will now have to read the logs to find the start of the conversation 11:08:05 apparently there was no start of the conversation, dbc just started talking for no apparent reason 11:08:21 as a continuation of a conversation that was held sometime before yesterday 11:26:38 5 hours is not a fairly standard answer delay 11:37:43 You could call it five hours later, or six lines later, or one send later. 11:38:04 These would not be equivalent if the channel were busy, of course :) 11:38:22 I've been known to randomly continue conversations, but I can't find the start of that one in the logs 11:39:34 and as for regex comparison, regexen are more interesting when they're modified to be TC and so can't be compared 12:48:58 i'm going to continue this conversation in exactly 4 years 12:49:51 -!- Sabskm has changed nick to Slereah. 13:22:49 -!- jix has joined. 13:52:10 -!- ais523 has quit. 14:56:35 -!- Sabskm has joined. 15:07:58 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:15:24 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:15:32 -!- jix has joined. 15:16:34 -!- Sabskm has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:28:35 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:26:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:34:59 I think converting to not ((A and B) or (not A and not B)) is also very easy but since you need to go to DFA first i guess a minimal one is not that much harder. 16:45:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:45:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 17:07:47 dreams are cool 17:49:18 what have you dreamed recently, bsmntbombdood? 17:53:55 -!- helios24 has quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:06:20 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:28:15 -!- RedDak has joined. 18:37:43 -!- helios_ has joined. 18:37:56 -!- helios_ has quit (Client Quit). 18:38:13 -!- helios24 has joined. 19:11:13 -!- Hardley has joined. 19:16:58 welll 19:18:08 RodgerTheGreat: last night i dreamed about some guys collecting some vials of perfume from some plants, then swam in a river until i got to a dam, climbed up and on this huuuuuge structure of pipes, talked to a girl outside a weird gothy nightclub sort of thing 19:20:58 it of course can't be conveyed properly in words 19:29:05 hm... I've had some vivid ones recently- I'll see if I can remember anything specific... 19:31:03 that was the first one i've had in a long time 19:31:07 :( 19:31:13 oh, man- part of a recent one that stands out involved my fish. I looked into his bowl, and it was empty with him gasping on the bottom. I freaked, and quickly added water to the bowl, and as the water rushed in the rocks and plants and everything poured into place as well. Then I looked at him and he kinda swelled up and stared at me, and then opened his mouth insanely wide. 19:31:26 I remember huge sharp teeth and a jaw so distended it was barely attached 19:31:56 oh that wasn't dreaming, just sleepwalking. 19:37:23 RodgerTheGreat: i dreamed about a jew harp. it was eating you 19:37:31 heh 19:48:25 i wish i remembered more dreams 19:59:00 -!- Hardley has quit. 19:59:09 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 20:28:22 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:54:21 -!- iEhird has joined. 20:54:47 gregorr! 20:55:47 I shall implement Plof in... Smalltalk! Or maybe lisp. but you get the idea. 20:56:10 Probably Plof3. 20:58:36 -- not on this iPhone, obviously. 21:00:43 -!- ihope has joined. 21:13:23 iEhird: I already implemented Plof2 in Smalltalk :P 21:14:10 wtf is this shit 21:14:23 only one person is allowed to have a nick that starts with the letter I 21:15:12 -!- GregorR has changed nick to IrregularR. 21:15:55 What was that? 21:16:10 not allowed 21:16:22 -!- iEhird has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:18:43 i am teh bored 21:18:47 -!- maximander has joined. 21:20:09 cool, cmu 21:21:08 suppose... 21:21:33 -!- IrregularR has changed nick to GregorR. 21:21:37 * GregorR supposes. 21:23:25 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:24:51 I just made a transcription error in a program 21:24:53 the result was that the program become more useful 21:25:03 OMG 21:25:05 that has to be a very rare event indeed 21:26:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:28:37 what's a transcription error? 21:33:41 trans = across, scribe = writing, so transcribe = copy text from one place to another... 21:34:09 ... I made a mistake when typing in a program from a non-computer-readable source. 21:39:15 hmmm 21:39:40 a PDF in fact 21:39:53 some PDFs have an anti copy-and-paste mechanism 21:41:13 you're using a bad pdf reader then 21:41:32 bad? how? 21:41:53 lack of built in OCR ? 21:42:23 ah, ok 21:42:29 so do people ever show up and ask for things? 21:42:43 bad because it implements a stupid feature 21:42:47 um, no 21:43:14 the mechanism makes the characters come out as garbage, rather than preventing copying 21:43:21 If the PDF contained only an image of the text, then your PDF reader sucks in that it can't circumvent that particularly lame protection. 21:43:28 Erm 21:43:31 I got lost mid sentence ^^ 21:43:36 it is done by assigning the wrong character codes to the wrong glyphs 21:43:50 I presume 21:43:50 If the PDF contained only an image of the text, that's one thing. But if not, your PDF reader sucks in that it can't circumvent that particularly lame protection. 21:44:10 That's pretty lameous. 21:44:12 GregorR: alas, your remark is out-of-date now 21:44:19 Yup :P 21:44:25 I still had to fix it :) 21:49:13 pdf 21:49:27 portable document format 21:51:22 Grrr.. i was hoping there'd be more people here asking for things 21:51:35 asking for what? 21:51:53 "Please print 'Hello, world'"? 21:51:56 yeah 21:52:11 you mean IRD? 21:52:17 yeah... 21:52:17 or whatever it is called 21:52:28 nah, we don't get that much 21:52:52 IRP 21:52:57 o 21:53:10 yeah, IRD is a mailing list at work, oops 21:53:20 Note the topic: 21:53:22 "IRP in #irp" :P 21:53:23 oklopol: what's with the "o" ? 21:53:42 Improv bullet point from a copy-paste? 21:53:51 And what is this about ais523 winning a prize? 21:54:27 wolfram's 21:55:29 give more details 21:55:44 the 2,3 turing machine 21:55:51 waitamo... 21:56:11 he is the guy that proved it turing-complete? 21:56:37 yes 21:56:46 and everything's with the o 21:56:59 (if the tape is pre-processed via a certain infinite non-Turing-complete process first, ISTR) 21:57:29 I suppose that is a sort of parallel Turing machine 22:00:08 ah, yes, here are the Slashdot headlines: October 24th, 2007: "Wolfram's 2,3 Turing Machine Is Universal!"; October 29th, 2007: "Wolfram's 2,3 Turing Machine Not Universal" 22:00:21 lol 22:01:55 ah, the contraversy is whether the pre-processing is cheating 22:02:14 people are analogising: 22:03:04 they first consider a PDA, which isn't TC, and another PDA, which isn't TC, but together they are TC, because 2 PDAs is equivalent to a TM 22:04:39 they then claim that just because the 2,3 automaton + a non-TC device = TC, that doesn't mean that the TC bit can be said to be inside the 2,3 automaton. 22:04:42 I thnk 22:04:48 I may be misunderstanding it 22:06:43 oh, yes, and the pairing in his case is much weaker than the pairing of 2 PDAs to make a TM 22:07:06 turing completeness is a matter of opinion 22:07:31 more specifically, "input" is a matter of opinion 22:14:22 * SimonRC reads a bit more about Stephan Wolfram. 22:17:49 TBH there are enough people saying strong enough things about him that I can only figure out that he (SW) is somewhere between Einstein and Hubbard. 22:17:53 *sigh* 22:17:59 Preprocessing -> machine isn't remotely similar to PDA<->PDA. Note the arrow directions ^^ 22:18:47 yes 22:18:52 but still contraversial 23:14:58 * SimonRC goes to bed 23:18:16 -!- sebbu has quit ("Leaving"). 23:33:07 -!- maximander has left (?). 2007-12-06: 00:43:48 -!- ihope_ has joined. 00:52:08 -!- Slereah has joined. 01:22:55 -!- DocWilco has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:33:01 -!- immibis has joined. 01:44:34 -!- DocWilco has joined. 02:37:08 -!- MrArmadillo has joined. 02:42:59 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. Hard work pays off in the future, l). 02:51:06 Please, someone divide 482 in half. 02:52:44 did it 02:52:57 Thank you. 02:54:13 -!- Bigcheese has joined. 02:55:50 Someone please find my IP and display it here in the channel. 02:55:59 2 02:56:12 Well... thank you for the effort. 02:56:36 -!- MrArmadillo has left (?). 02:56:43 No. 03:08:39 66.74.149.10 03:08:58 ... 03:09:51 hey, I did what he asked 03:10:39 his IP is version 4 03:11:06 I don't think you can connect to freenode with ipv6 03:11:33 you can 03:12:03 :O 03:12:11 of course you can 03:12:14 too bad ISPs hate us all 03:12:28 and wont do ipv6 to the home ;/ 03:26:14 Too bad ISPs hate us all, and won't do 10BASE-T to the home. 03:26:26 indeed 03:26:26 (much less some nice fiber) 03:26:52 err 03:27:10 10BASE-T to the home would suck... unless they where under 100m from your house 03:27:21 Bigcheese: You know what I mean. 03:27:34 :P 03:27:44 10mb isn't really all that great anyway 03:28:01 can already do that with good dsl or cable 03:28:32 Where? 03:28:36 South Korea? :p 03:28:50 usa 03:28:51 dude 03:28:58 Colorado Springs, CO. 03:29:02 Korea has 100mb to every home 03:29:05 5 MBs down, 512K up. 03:29:05 :P 03:29:06 I know. 03:29:08 damn 03:31:43 -!- Sabskm has joined. 03:45:26 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:31:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:42:24 -!- sekhmet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:53:22 -!- sekhmet has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:34:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:10:29 -!- faxathisia has joined. 11:07:21 I wrote a fractran interpreter in J 11:07:22 (*{~1 i.~[@(=<.)@:*) 11:07:35 well maybe interpreter is the wrong word but it runs the thing 11:09:54 (example use http://rafb.net/p/4VYh4b29.txt ) 11:12:28 should add that to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran ? 11:20:34 I... killed EgoBot? :( 11:24:47 EGOBOT! SPEAK TO MEEEEE! 11:26:27 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:41:48 Huh? 11:44:15 -!- Sabskm has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:59:35 it's so sad Sabskm is gone :< 12:04:53 That's me. 12:21:31 well, almost 12:51:31 -!- Sabskm has joined. 13:03:31 -!- Slereah has quit (Nick collision from services.). 13:03:33 -!- Sabskm has changed nick to Slereah. 13:13:20 yes, yes, i'm referring to the consonant cluster, you rarely see that nice ones 13:13:26 except for bsmnt of course 13:14:01 Sabskm derives from egyptian. 13:14:17 And since I don't know most of the vowels involved, that's that. 13:15:05 i was not being sarcastic, and you know egyptian? 13:16:15 Nah. 13:16:27 Just browsed some egyptian grammar. 13:25:19 -!- jix has joined. 14:00:21 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:24:05 -!- RedDak has joined. 14:38:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:50:32 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 15:22:12 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:22:22 -!- jix has joined. 15:24:22 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:48:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 16:20:22 -!- faxathisia has quit ("Leaving"). 16:51:19 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:35:29 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:02:11 -!- oklopol has joined. 18:20:33 -!- faxathisia has joined. 18:25:25 Isn't there a turing-incomplete catagory in the wiki? 18:49:36 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 18:58:12 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:07:53 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:08:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:19:56 faxathisia: finite automaton and pushdown automaton are included in turing-incomplete, but there is no supercategory 19:20:39 I mean.. ones which are not turing complete 19:20:59 like regex, SQL, Haskell type system, etc 19:21:10 (although those aren't esoteric ones I suppose) 19:21:11 i understand. it would be a supercategory of both FSA and PDA 19:21:24 what is a supercatagory? 19:21:59 a category that includes the others 19:22:19 in the hierarchical sense, not the category theory sense 19:22:21 Ohhh 19:22:28 I'm sorry I totally misread what you first said 19:23:00 heeh, i wonder if they have categories on the category theory wiki 19:25:46 Category: Computational class only has FSA, PDA, TC and unknown class 19:27:37 aha, Esolang:Categorization contains uncomputable but it's not included in the supercategory 19:29:16 fixed 19:39:50 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:53:25 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 19:55:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:56:06 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:06:08 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p163633625.txt <<< i wonder if i'll get a tc system by adding these retarded random instructions for long enough :P 20:07:29 * faxathisia chokes with laughter at this ! 20:07:53 that's the point, at least once that's ready, and has more instructions than any language ever. 20:08:02 (it's not like it's hard making more of those...) 20:08:43 c - outputs "the following is a quine" + source code in ascii <<< i'm very proud of this one 20:09:55 it's a lie, isn't it? 20:10:32 yes 20:10:44 i'll fool many! 20:10:45 ... 20:11:31 what about adding a colon and space after quine? 20:11:35 i should write this in python or something, english gets a bit clumsy when there's no idea behind the instructions. 20:11:56 * faxathisia cannot stop laughing at "baby you make me sing" 20:11:57 i left that out on purpose. 20:12:06 :D 20:12:49 it'd be interesting if there was a program that constantly tried to get something tc out of my instructions, and when it found it, it'd make a bling of some sort 20:13:05 haha 20:13:40 so i could just add and add, and when it found tcness, i could check if it's non trivial enough to leave in, or do i have to add "and after then, output 'btw this is instruction that makes the language tc '" 20:14:11 is turing complete often a goal for language design ? 20:14:19 yes 20:14:31 I think that turing complete is a good thing to avoid, as well! 20:14:34 at least among esoterists 20:14:41 :) 20:14:44 just as interesting 20:14:52 although i guess anything can be made interesting 20:15:05 ihope: you mentioned pens for stick bombs a few months ago right? 20:15:59 i tried making a basic popsicle stick bomb with a pen in the middle... the stick crack instantly 20:16:35 also, using a harder material than those sticks does not allow for any trivial bomb structure 20:17:03 i'm fairly sure there's *some* bomb-tc structure for any hardness, though. 20:17:23 not bomb tc, more like bomb fsa 20:17:41 since you can't make an infinitely exploding bomb ofc 20:18:20 it took me a while to come up with a structure you can extend arbitrarily, but now that i found it, i have a new hobby :P 20:18:38 been making unstable stick frames all day! 20:18:55 infinitely exploding bombs require strange matter... 20:19:32 hmm, indeed, just as well as you can use tc for an asm, you could use it for stick bombs. 20:19:50 although i guess it'll only make sense if there's at least *some* rebuilding going on 20:20:15 if there's just a continuous explosion, i don't really see a possibility for computation 20:21:09 so, what about them school shootings? 20:23:52 bsmntbombdood: i think you should drop those plans 20:24:09 lol wut? 20:24:48 i am just leaping to the natural conclusion given the current conversation + your nick :D 20:25:08 heh 20:25:23 * oklopol contemplates killing everyone in his school with a massive stick bomb... twice 20:26:03 not that i consider myself having a school really 20:26:15 since i have... 0 lessons a week there 20:26:23 i was thinking that the performance of past school shootings have been rather dismal 20:27:38 that seems to be the general consensus 20:27:57 the v. tech man did rather well though 20:31:21 oklopol: a Turing machine where all symbol transitions go into a "lower" symbol is Turing-complete. 20:31:25 Can be, that is. 20:31:51 hmm 20:31:53 how? 20:32:19 oh, right 20:32:21 Represent a cell as two cells. 00 means 0, 01 means 1, 11 means "ignore this cell". Except, hmm... 20:32:24 obviously 20:32:32 You can delete cells but you can't add them. 20:32:53 why can't you add? 20:33:02 You can't turn 11 into 00 or 01. 20:33:08 but you can have 4 states 20:33:15 or a hundred 20:33:20 I guess 10 could somehow mean to add an additional cell. 20:33:40 Or you could just move everything over, which is easy-ish. 20:33:55 it's easy conceptually 20:34:02 well any finite set of cells could only be changed a finite number of times 20:34:06 i mean, easy to visualize that it's *possible* 20:34:13 Have an end-of-tape marker. When you want to turn 1 into 0, copy it all over. 20:34:20 yeah 20:34:38 or you could simulate a tag system 20:34:40 Slow as glass, but eh. 20:34:48 Oh, tag systems, yeah. 20:35:05 * ihope ponders a Grand Unified Programming Language 20:35:13 hmm? 20:35:45 A programming language that any other programming language can trivially be compiled into! 20:35:58 Though I guess we need to define "programming language". 20:36:03 i can't really think of any way to do any computation in stick bombs 20:36:26 Seems possible. 20:36:39 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:37:01 hmm... wonder if you could have a system with just multiple tape heads, and just destructive 0->1 transitions... 20:37:07 and have that be tc 20:37:33 Represent the bomb as a directed graph where the nodes are gates that can send output along each line once. 20:37:58 and have some boolean operations at nodes? 20:38:02 Yup. 20:38:23 and then just as long a sequence as can possibly be used... that's definately 20:38:26 *possible* 20:38:32 now how can you make a port... 20:38:38 * oklopol implements! 20:38:40 The time gate: inputs are A and B, output is X. If you get an input along A, send output on X. If you get an input along B then A, do not sent output on X. 20:39:15 Realize that and the world will be in the palm of your hands. Probably. 20:39:19 so B just destroys, A continues the chain reaction onto x 20:39:40 Yeah. 20:39:56 You also need an AND and an OR, which should be easy. 20:39:59 that's basically a... what's that gizmo called xD 20:40:16 you can make and and or using that 20:40:18 methinks 20:40:30 is it a transistor 20:40:38 I don't think ao. 20:41:00 s/ao/so/, of course. 20:41:01 but i'm thinking it can simulate one given perfectly timed actionz 20:41:14 A transistor is pretty much an AND or an AND NOT gate. 20:42:13 The idea behind the time gate is that you can represent a value with two lines: if you find it's 0, set off the 0 line; if you find it's 1, set off the 1 line. 20:42:31 I'm sure the gate does something useful with this. :-P 20:42:42 that's a transistor 20:43:06 A transistor doesn't care which order the voltages come in, does it? 20:43:23 One on input then one on control is just as good as one on control then one on input. 20:43:39 well, i think more like they have to com at the same time 20:43:45 *cum 20:43:55 i'm not saying it's the exact same 20:44:11 i'm saying you can do the and and or ports the same way as with transistors 20:44:21 Ah. 20:44:53 I guess this time gate is really a NOT gate that waits a while. 20:45:02 ...or not, actually... i feel there is an isomorphism, but it's not trivial enough i could actually see what it is 20:45:50 There might be. The time gate has a state: given that A and B are both set off, you can't tell whether X is set off. 20:46:49 hmm... i don't have enough sticks to try anything interesting 20:47:06 I think NOT is really unnecessary; you can do the same thing with separate lines for 0 and 1. 20:47:17 I'd DCC my sticks to you, if that were possible. 20:47:23 I think I have plenty. 20:47:27 -!- Jontte has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 20:47:34 what's "plenty"? 20:47:38 i have 30 20:48:16 you need 4 sticks for a sticksize*sticksize cell 20:48:30 plus 1 extra @ each termination point 20:49:00 I have over 250. 20:49:06 why? 20:49:13 and have you made anything with them= 20:49:14 ? 20:49:22 They are currently not in a "made" form. 20:49:26 oh 20:49:27 i see 20:49:29 I have made stuff with them, though. 20:49:37 so you have lots of ice cream?= :) 20:49:50 I bought them at a craft store. :-) 20:50:09 hmm... then i don't know what you mean by "\"made\" form" 20:50:28 Now, we all know that the most important tool in bomb building is a heavy book. :-) 20:50:39 I made stuff with them, then un-made it and put the sticks back in the box. 20:50:53 what's the biggest you've made? 20:51:27 i just use my hands, have so little sticks i didn't exactly need any help making a full bomb 20:51:30 I've made a bomb with about 6 segments, each a stick long. 20:51:31 -!- Jontte has joined. 20:51:35 wight 20:51:36 right 20:51:44 i made an 8-long 20:51:49 that was like a 3-minute job 20:51:55 i need sticks=!= 20:51:57 hmm 20:52:08 also, i seem to need a bigger question mark button 20:52:27 We could pastebin our designs, sort of. 20:52:36 sure 20:53:05 Are you using the overlapping HH for your segmented bombs? 20:53:14 mine is what tim fort uses, i think, copied the rectangular look, and the rest was pretty obvious 20:53:20 yes. 20:54:06 i also made something using an x or some sort, but it's harder to make, and uses just as many sticks; and much less stable 20:54:44 i also tried to make the 4-stick form extendable, but it doesn't work. 20:54:54 4-stick bomb 20:55:14 I think I've pondered that. 20:56:21 Oh, that's an interesting terminator. 20:56:33 hmm? 20:56:49 It's the slash-V part of the four-stick bomb. 20:58:11 That can act as a terminator for the segmented bomb. It has three sticks, which is the minimum. 20:58:51 Except, of course, for the single stick, which can also act as a terminator but can't attach to itself. 20:59:59 ah, terminator for a sequence of rectangles, not a terminator for an explosion :) 21:00:37 but indeed, that is a nice terminator 21:00:38 A book is a terminator for an explosion. :-) 21:00:58 And since we're inventing terminology, I think I'll call the HH a bridge. 21:01:01 hmm, indeed... perhaps you could make an explosion make a book fall? 21:01:19 Sounds easy enough. You just need sticks that are sturdy enough to hold up a book. 21:01:29 i guess that's feasible, since i thought of it as a bridge too, at some point 21:01:56 (the term came from my 3*1 one with a pen in the middle... it was kinda brigey) 21:02:00 *bridgey 21:02:04 bridgy 21:02:40 you could have bigger sticks at the book felling part 21:02:45 And I'll also call this whole thing the DUD paradigm: one stick is pushed down, one is pushed up, one is pushed down. 21:03:19 yeah, of the other way around 21:03:22 *or 21:07:04 "DUD" is a word, so it's better. :-) 21:08:01 yeah, but isn't it a bit misleading? 21:08:52 The fact that it's "dud"? 21:09:29 well, isn't dud something that does *not* explode? 21:10:21 try to find something with T and N instead :) 21:10:25 i can picture it now, you have two sets of 4 detonators, and a set of 8 detonators in the other end, to receive the result of a 4-bit multiplication! 21:10:36 heh 21:11:01 työntö / nosto 21:14:01 ihope: have you built anything 3d? 21:15:03 -!- ihope_ has joined. 21:15:13 ihope: have you built anything 3d? 21:15:33 a cube can be built with a hook 21:15:47 although i haven't tried 21:16:28 I've built something 3d with pencils and rubber bands :-P 21:16:46 I guess calling it the TNT paradigm is pretty obvious. 21:17:20 What should it stand for? 21:17:29 Saying that the N is "negative" is easy. 21:18:13 Maybe I should come up with a reason for calling it U2,3,5 :-P 21:22:26 well, työntö/nosto ;) 21:22:31 hmm 21:22:34 Oh. What's it mean? 21:22:41 push/lift :D 21:22:47 not exactly correct 21:22:49 Ah, that's easy :-) 21:23:12 Better than "tower" or "traverse" or "treason" or something. 21:23:23 Or "topple". "Top", maybe. 21:23:32 top/negative! 21:23:35 But top/negative doesn't make much sense. 21:23:39 ...heh 21:23:55 Työntö/nosto is better, I'm guessing. 21:23:57 anyhow, 3d with pens and rubber bands... the question is, did it explode? 21:24:08 Not at all. 21:24:15 Well, maybe slightly. 21:24:15 sure, if you don't mind it's finnish and has an umlaut ;) 21:24:47 i actually took some rubber bands out and tried making a 3d one... but i'm pretty sure no one in the world is that handy. 21:24:49 i mean 21:24:56 it's im fucking possible 21:24:58 If we ever make a wiki, we could have {{tyonto}} be "työntö". 21:25:15 tyoentoe xD 21:25:20 Yay! 21:25:33 It'd go well with my Goedel and Schroedinger. 21:25:51 So, shall we make a stick bomb wiki somewhere? :-) 21:26:39 my 3d-model was to have two basic rectangles, lift them up, and put a rubber band where pull is needed, and a stick where a push is needed... neither of those exactly makes it stable enough to stand on it's own... 21:26:47 heh, sure :P 21:27:28 I think it's easy enough to build a cube with sticks and rubber bands. 21:27:33 we'll put it on the esolang wiki under "very finited state automata" 21:27:34 You do the honors. :-P 21:27:50 Oh, on Esolang? How mundane. 21:27:55 heh 21:27:56 And yet how practical. 21:28:09 you saying it'd be easy to make a cube bomb? :O 21:28:13 i bow thee, master 21:28:21 I didn't say a bomb. :-) 21:28:33 oh 21:28:39 then it's incredibly simple :) 21:28:43 I guess you could just take a bomb and use it as one of the faces, though :-P 21:28:54 or all the walls 21:28:58 but it won't fully detonate. 21:29:14 No? 21:29:27 nope 21:29:42 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:29:49 have you tried putting two one-stick-terminated ..tnt's together? 21:30:01 they sometimes blow up, but usually not. 21:30:23 You mean stick terminator, HH, HH, stick terminator? 21:30:27 it's interesting, actually, to make a long chaing, and just make them explode one by one 21:30:30 oh 21:30:34 an HH 21:30:37 fully terminated 21:30:38 Yes. :-) 21:30:52 and an HH with the other termination shared with the first one 21:30:59 Ah. 21:31:05 Term, HH, term, HH, term, then? 21:31:10 yes 21:31:26 heh, i see the formal grammar is beginning to form ;) 21:31:35 :-) 21:32:21 Next it'll be | HH | HH |. 21:32:22 hmm, could you pastebin the exact form of your thing somehow? i want to be sure we really have the same one, even though i'm fairly sure we do 21:32:25 yeah 21:32:40 then we realize a H never exists alone 21:32:43 so |H|H| 21:32:46 Oh yeah. 21:32:56 There are multiple ways to make a |H|H|. 21:33:04 yes 21:33:22 The H's interfaces could be on opposite sides, or they could be on the same side overlapping various ways. 21:33:39 yeah, but each of them is stable, to some extent 21:33:54 * ihope nods 21:34:13 i tried them all before realizing the key to extendability is not to find the correct one of those... but to leave the terminator out. 21:34:22 Yeah. 21:34:42 We need a machine that can churn out an |HHHHHHHHHHHHH| in fifteen seconds. 21:34:50 -!- AnMaster has quit (Success). 21:35:07 yeah 21:35:14 *chunk chunk chunk chunk chunk* *Pthththththththt!* "Darn it!" 21:35:18 wonder if they sell those... 21:35:39 I think we'd have to build one, or use some other all-purpose machine. :-) 21:36:10 You know, an obvious abbreviation would be something like |H2|. 21:36:17 -!- AnMaster has joined. 21:36:29 ...do we have any tc stick builders on the wiki? 21:36:48 TC stick builders? 21:37:04 that would be, yes, but if you wanna extend that to other directions... 21:37:07 i mean 21:37:11 |H2| would be nice 21:37:24 have you made anything but straight lines? 21:37:32 i made a 3*3 square 21:37:46 Though of course 2 isn't shorter than H by much. 21:37:52 What sort of 3*3 square? 21:38:03 hmm... actually i didn't finish it, it blew apart when i was adding the last corner 21:38:06 umm 21:38:14 well, i had the basic H 21:38:21 then make |H3| 21:38:33 Then you make it turn? 21:38:44 then took the middle, and added a |H3| to form a cross 21:38:57 so that the middles of the |H3|'s were the same 21:38:57 Oh, hum... 21:39:09 I think I may know what you mean. 21:39:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 21:39:45 i'm not sure what forms you can extend it, but that model is very extendable 21:40:13 Remove the side of an H and put a different bridge in there? 21:40:24 yes 21:40:29 * ihope tries 21:42:54 Well then, the major thing is a cross with interfaces around it. 21:43:17 yep 21:43:29 although i didn't manage to build it right away 21:43:39 perhaps because i don't use a book 21:44:03 and because i build on my bed, which is prolly not optimal 21:44:37 Indeed. 21:46:05 Yay, I made an L. 21:46:58 * ihope makes four |H|s and connects them with a cross 21:47:21 -!- Jontte has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:47:32 * ihope actually doesn't, because he's hungry 21:47:47 -!- Jontte has joined. 21:48:16 -!- Jontte has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:48:36 -!- Jontte has joined. 21:48:49 Something like flexible three-slot Lincoln logs would be nice. 21:51:21 i'll make the 3*3 square now 22:02:33 lol, can't even succeed in the 3*3 cross anymore... 22:05:30 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has joined. 22:15:02 -!- Jontte has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:15:14 -!- UnrelatedToQaz has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox 2.0.0.11/2007112718]"). 22:15:36 -!- Jontte has joined. 22:21:20 did it! 22:21:34 took only like 10 tries... 22:38:06 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:46:46 -!- Jontte has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 22:51:15 -!- ihope_ has quit ("http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.08.09"). 23:04:41 -!- Jontte has joined. 2007-12-07: 00:34:49 -!- Jontte has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 01:53:00 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 03:05:36 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:07:37 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 03:07:42 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 03:19:11 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:19:56 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:33:55 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:33:55 -!- AnMaster has quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:33:55 -!- 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Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. Oops. My brain just hit a bad sector"). 07:59:17 What's the function in python to change an integer into a string? 07:59:43 -!- Jontte has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:37 str ? 08:01:05 I'll try that thank you. 08:01:27 It works thanks. 08:02:04 (I'm trying to make some awfully inefficient calculator) 08:02:37 hopefully it's really inefficient 08:02:57 Frigthfully so, I believe. 08:03:03 It uses the Peano axioms. 08:03:20 AYEEH 08:06:11 ah, not bad 08:09:46 The program itself is probably very inefficient, but it's mainly because I kinda suck at programming. 08:31:24 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server"). 08:31:34 -!- cmeme has joined. 09:03:00 * oerjan wonders if there would be a market for a song called "Rocking around Frostie the Red-Nosed Reindeer Roasting on a One-Horse Open Sleigh" 09:03:43 also, if someone already made it or a close approximation 09:06:00 Well, there's a "Rudolph the deep-throat reindeer" and a "Frosty the Pervert". 09:06:06 A market for everything! 09:06:24 So there should be one for that. 09:06:51 actually that one is just Rule 34 09:07:43 Sort of. 09:07:48 Except, in musical form. 09:09:33 my idea is more about drowning under a flood of christmas songs 09:09:58 hm needs to fit Mistletoe and Wine in there 09:10:36 Oh. 09:10:53 Sort of like the Ultimate Showdown, but Christmas-wise. 09:14:30 i guess it would be filed under Christmas Medley 09:23:30 the problem is you need to have a melody, which you want to be consistent, since otherwise you could just play the songs one by one 09:24:31 or you might go for ultimate disharmony... 09:24:43 composing a new melody doesn't work unless you do it really good, and somehow steal all of it from the other songs while being none of them, and using the melody of an existing one is unfair to the others 09:24:47 hmm 09:25:01 Well, I guess it would just have to sound christmas-y. 09:25:09 And the work would be in the lyrics. 09:25:19 www.vjn.fi/s/brainfuck.mp3 anyone wanna sing it on top of that if i write the lyrics? 09:25:43 well you just need christmas bells i guess 09:26:37 What command would bring on the bells? 09:26:49 ...command? 09:27:02 I'm listening to that awful brainfuck.mp3. 09:27:07 "ho, bells! squrry up some music for me!" 09:27:25 I assume the sounds correspond to commands. 09:27:32 oh, no no 09:27:44 Is it just made to annoy then? 09:27:50 no 09:27:51 i like that 09:28:04 one of my favorites 09:28:14 Well, annoy me at least, and make you smile! 09:28:25 my favorite music genres are metal, classic and noise 09:29:53 noise is easiest to compose, and hardest to listen 09:30:57 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Calc2.txt 09:32:03 Soon, it will be able to add two numbers! 09:33:15 oh my god 09:33:19 it all becomes clear now 09:35:03 i once made a calculator that checked whether there were operators in the input string, and if there were, found the subexpression most deep, and evaluated it 09:35:14 "parsing? what's parsing?" 09:35:35 i also made an interpreter for a basic-like language on top of that 09:36:43 it still has a bug, if you have the variables I and IN, that sometimes produces an error like syntax error 21N... 09:36:53 depending on the value of I of course 09:37:35 also tokenization is for wimps 09:53:30 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:25:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:30:48 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:53:02 -!- faxathisia has joined. 11:01:50 -!- Sabskm has joined. 11:23:43 -!- Slereah has quit (Nick collision from services.). 11:23:44 -!- Sabskm has changed nick to Slereah. 11:24:09 Hell. Operation priority is annoying. 11:28:52 Are you writing a parser or somesuch? 11:30:27 Nah. Just a stupid calculator. 11:30:43 in what language?: 11:30:43 That prints every step with the Peano axioms. 11:30:51 Oh I was reading about that :p 11:30:53 in the logs 11:30:53 Python. 11:31:04 So far, it works okay for one addition. 11:31:06 Does python have any good logic programming facility? 11:31:13 I cant imagine it being trivial to add.. 11:31:20 No idea. I don't know that much python. 11:31:45 faxathisia: all i know is python has everything 11:31:52 Heh. 11:32:00 It seems kind of brittle.. 11:32:06 * faxathisia has a look 11:32:24 i'm 99% sure there is something like that for python 11:33:10 if parsing is not fun, 11:33:14 * faxathisia recommends using logic programming 11:34:35 the trick to parsing is making a class that lets you use your string as a file, so that you don't have to explicitly pass information about where you are on the string 11:35:07 at least, that helped me 11:36:21 I like that you get an unparser too, if you write the parser as a proper relation 11:36:38 It's just that.. it's very hard to add e.g. indentation when unparsing 11:36:48 (unless you write a new piece of code) 11:45:11 I can't tell if PyPy would work for this 12:15:04 -!- jix has joined. 12:18:02 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 12:18:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:55:13 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 12:59:28 Is there no way to change a string in Python? 13:28:01 I guess not since "'str' object does not support item assignment" 13:29:03 That much I got. 13:29:19 I was somehow hoping for some magical function that would take all my trouble away. 13:29:30 It's really an annoying feature. 13:47:06 -!- pikhq has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:47:06 -!- Bigcheese has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:47:09 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:47:09 -!- Bigcheese has joined. 13:55:37 -!- RedDak has joined. 13:56:36 so many subturing languages become complete fi you just stick while(1) { .. } around it 14:21:25 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:56:11 -!- jix has joined. 15:24:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:50:49 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:25:24 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 16:38:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:43:26 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:51:11 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:10:05 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:13:12 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:20:34 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:30:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 17:33:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:11:25 -!- jix has joined. 18:52:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:15:49 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 19:35:33 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 20:16:25 -!- Jontte has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:16:57 -!- Jontte has joined. 20:55:04 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:55:53 -!- faxathisia has quit ("Leaving"). 20:58:11 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:58:45 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 21:01:20 -!- Dagide has joined. 21:04:48 Slereah: functional programming techniques make string assignment a little bit unnecessary. 21:05:05 Though it did say "item assignment"; I'm not sure that's the same thing. 21:18:14 The free wifi has mysteriously gone just as it mysteriously appeared 21:18:37 -!- RedDak has quit (Connection timed out). 21:28:06 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:28:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:28:06 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:28:07 -!- cmeme has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:28:07 -!- AnMaster has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:28:08 -!- SimonRC has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:28:08 -!- Overand has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:28:08 -!- GregorR has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:29:39 -!- Overand has joined. 21:30:03 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:32:04 -!- cmeme has joined. 21:32:39 Slereah: there aren't many reasons for strings to be mutable. It only causes pain. What's your actual problem? 21:36:56 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:37:01 -!- puzzlet has joined. 21:38:42 -!- SimonRC has joined. 21:40:26 \x.[x[''x]x]'\x.[x[''x]] 21:40:28 :-S 21:43:36 -!- GregorR has joined. 21:44:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:44:33 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 21:45:24 -!- AnMaster has joined. 21:51:05 hmm, netsplit 21:51:17 delicious 21:59:26 * SimonRC goes 22:05:05 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:23:50 -!- AnMaster has joined. 22:27:06 -!- Dagide has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:30:21 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:47:14 -!- immibis has joined. 22:53:08 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 23:05:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:05:16 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:06:15 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:11:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:42:54 -!- immibis has left (?). 23:49:08 -!- Bigcheese has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:55:54 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 2007-12-08: 00:24:31 -!- iEhird has joined. 00:25:13 blah 00:26:08 -!- iEhird_ has joined. 00:26:08 -!- iEhird has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:26:11 -!- iEhird_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:36:14 -!- iEhird has joined. 00:36:27 gregorr well damn you 00:36:43 only god has the power to damn 00:36:52 lisp then :p 00:37:03 (Days later.) 00:37:13 iEhird: How 'bout PDP-11 ASM? 00:37:49 um no :p 00:38:01 iEhird: How 'bout brainfuck? 00:38:21 I want a crazy implementation using continuations and rwcursion 00:38:47 Is rwcursion like recursion but you can write to the execution stack? 00:39:29 oh you should add continuations to Plof -- I'd write a continuations-based web framework in it and use it for everything :p 00:39:34 and heh 00:39:58 (actually just provide access to the call stack ) 00:40:20 then a continuation is just a copy of it 00:40:33 The call stack is read-accessible, but not write-accessible. That could be fixed though ... 00:40:56 do so! :p 00:41:12 (plot 3 I'd 2) 00:41:14 wrt 00:41:18 err 00:41:49 That'll take a bit of a mental exercise. 00:42:20 ??? 00:42:38 I don't want to just toss in something to allow that, I want it to be elegant. 00:43:29 ah. make the callstsck a global linked list 00:43:32 a 00:43:54 of MethodContexts or something 00:44:12 That's what it is right now. 00:44:19 But Plof has no classes, so the type is "object" 00:44:31 yeah yeah 00:44:41 The problem is I have these two different means of calling functions. 00:44:46 But I think I need to take that out of PSL. 00:44:51 yes 00:44:51 Because it's lameus maximus. 00:45:00 And instead, return -> a kind of throw. 00:45:22 also plof3 is overengineeredv to the max 00:45:28 just a comment 00:46:03 I think you can only say when something is /over/engineered once it's implemented :P 00:46:39 mmmnope 00:47:46 IMHO, it's a fairly standard VM language with the only exception being the runtime-defined parser. 00:47:57 (That is, what I have documented so far :P ) 00:48:01 exactly. 00:48:03 (Since I haven't gotten to the user language yet) 00:48:17 Runtime parser == gone too far? 00:48:27 yeah IMO 00:48:51 you could do something similar but less overboard 00:49:42 I haven't found a more elegant solution to the fundamental problem I wanted to solve. 00:49:56 What problem 00:50:17 I have a prototype-based system, and I want everything to be an object, and furthermore to be derived from the appropriate prototypes. But I don't want "system" types like integers to be special - that is, I want them to be defined at runtime, in real code. 00:51:15 Generally, either fundamental things are plain old objects or they're not. 00:51:29 define special 00:51:43 you make little semsem 00:51:49 Semsem? 00:52:01 iEhird: Defined by the system and not replicatable by users. 00:52:08 side note hf with the prwttyprinter with that ruhtime patset 00:52:28 (sorry iPhone keyboard) 00:52:57 "hf" == ? 00:53:50 Yeah, you can't really define things like words in terms of other things. 00:54:04 have fun be 00:54:08 Unless the system automatically decides that certain things could be words. 00:54:12 gr 00:54:19 yes ihope 00:54:27 you need core stuff 00:54:49 provide a crazy minimal core and a stdlub in plof 00:54:56 like forth does 00:55:29 That doesn't solve the fundamental problem. 00:55:44 there is none 00:55:47 The code has a '3', I want that to evaluate to something derived from the Number prototype. 00:56:24 it can 00:56:32 So if the code has a '3', it's passed to some function that interprets that somehow? 00:56:46 ihope: Yeah - the parser. 00:56:48 make your parade do it greg 00:56:55 parseer 00:57:03 So it's a matrioshka thingy? 00:57:17 ruby python smalltalk ... do this fine 00:57:31 theres no problem 00:57:37 GregorR: and what does the parser do with the 3? 00:58:42 iEhird: It's not a problem in that it doesn't cause the language to be non-TC or what not, so yes it works for all sorts of languages, but I consider it a problem because I don't want the language to have any types with a level of "nativeness" that a user could never recreate with their own objects. 00:59:13 ihope: Presumably, it parses it into the value, asks the system to turn that into the underlying data type, then wraps it up into a Number object and returns it. 00:59:15 There are things that have a level of "nativeness" that a user could never recreate with their own objects. 00:59:48 yes 00:59:51 Like the word 0x43. How do you define that? 01:00:06 for the rest you can already so that greg 01:00:09 The byte 0x43, I mean, I guess. 01:00:20 just make a new Number class 01:00:26 iEhird: No classes. 01:00:30 the parseer calls it. voillam 01:00:44 srfu greg. you know I mean 01:00:55 Actually, I'm quite confused by what both of you mean. 01:01:41 Suppose you want to define a type that contains a 32-bit word. 01:01:50 OK. 01:02:20 What might that look like? 01:02:46 That depends. If you just want: new ThirtyTwoBitWord(1024); // then that would obviously be quite simple. 01:02:52 greg class=object 01:03:02 wewt 01:03:10 greg no that's using an alerteadt word class 01:04:23 Well, I guess an entire parser thingy is unnecessary: 1024 could be a shorthand for SomeFunction(object containing 1024 somehow). 01:04:47 Roughly like in Haskell: 1024 means fromInteger (the number 1024 as an Integer). 01:04:51 Yes, but then SomeFunction is deemed unique and special by the language. 01:05:29 Then have a declaration like "numparser SomeFunction" that declares SomeFunction to be the number parser. 01:05:35 the patset function willtoo be unique and wspecisl 01:06:30 Except it's deemed unique and special by something which can be modified. 01:06:40 -!- immibis has joined. 01:06:46 Therefore, you can make something ELSE unique and special (which makes it not unique or special) 01:06:54 you must have a root somewhere 01:06:54 Huh? 01:07:01 If the language only supports decimal, you can just add support for hex. 01:07:07 Okau. 01:07:14 And not as: HexNumber("0x123"), but just 0x123 01:07:39 So it is a matrioshka thing. 01:08:08 greg. overengineering. 01:08:15 ugh crab 01:08:29 stupid colloquy 01:08:49 You declare it overengineering, while simultaneously not denying its value. Why is it not useful to be able to add that sort of thing to the language? 01:09:31 HexNumber("123") every time you want 0x123 is bad? 01:09:53 It's inelegant, it makes hex numbers second-class citizens. 01:10:17 So say that every word that starts with a number is parsed by some special thing? 01:10:51 That's merely one example, it's not like it could only be useful for numbers. 01:11:16 You could add operations, and not in the Smalltalk-style "anything is an identifier but there's no precedence" style. 01:11:31 Erm, remove one of those instances of the word "style" :P 01:11:46 And s/operations/operators/ X_X 01:11:55 Hmm... 01:12:38 Say that every word that doesn't start with a letter and consist entirely of alphanumerics except for a few special ones is parsed by some special thing, I guess? 01:13:17 Do you honestly believe that having those limitations in a runtime pseudoparser is simpler than having a runtime parser? 01:13:45 You would now need to have a parser, PLUS this pseudoparser and make them mesh. 01:14:30 cannot read Coll problem 01:14:35 Well, I guess you're saying that matrioshka stuff is more elegant than HexNumber("123") and MkArray(1,2,3) and such. 01:14:54 ihope: definition("matrioshka") 01:16:25 Oh, multiple layers? 01:16:30 Yeah. 01:16:33 (So sez wikipedia :P ) 01:17:16 Define the syntax here, and then use it there. 01:17:39 The only difference is where "here" is. 01:17:57 I'd rather define a function HexNumber than extend an existing parser to make 0x123 work. 01:18:03 I think. 01:18:59 -!- immibis has left (?). 01:19:36 Maybe you could remove the parentheses and instead of HexNumber("123") you could call your function 0x and have it be 0x"123". 01:19:49 Approximation of code to convert one to the other: pbnf { number = /0x[0-9A-Fa-f]+/ => { return { HexNumber(args[0]); } } 01:20:10 Oops, got my semicolon in the wrong place, but that's the idea ;P 01:20:24 I guess so. 01:21:51 HexNumber(/0x[0-9A-Fa-f]/) 01:21:54 Redivider syntax >:-) 01:22:44 And then, Gregor disappeared. 01:35:15 -!- Jontte has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 01:55:03 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:57:35 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:37:52 -!- iEhird_ has joined. 02:41:57 -!- immibis has joined. 02:56:12 -!- iEhird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:39:08 -!- ihope has quit ("Lost terminal"). 04:43:46 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:24:33 -!- faxathisia has joined. 05:42:00 -!- oo has joined. 06:18:39 -!- faxathisia has quit ("Leaving"). 06:57:31 -!- oo has left (?). 07:00:41 the parser language is brilliant, and there is no "overengineering" 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:22:22 -!- faxathisia has joined. 08:31:55 Does anyone know about Gries? invertible do-loop? 08:32:10 I think it's mentioned in The Science of Programming by David Gries 08:46:44 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:15:19 -!- Jontte has joined. 09:24:02 -!- RedDak has joined. 09:30:26 -!- Dagide has joined. 09:33:07 hi faxathisia, oerjan, Jontte, RedDak and Dagide 09:33:15 hello 09:33:26 What is going on 09:33:44 faxathisia: i don't know about that, but i know a bit about reversible programming in general 09:34:08 oh cool :D 09:34:14 I wrote about 99% of a Janus system 09:34:22 but I got stuck on the loops so I couldn't finish it 09:34:22 mostly that it can be tc, although makes some problems always take a bit longer. 09:34:48 it's a long time since i read about it, and i was a time complexity noob back then 09:35:02 so just remember it's slower 09:35:03 hmm 09:35:04 morn morn 09:35:10 I really need someone to help ! 09:35:22 I basically found a bunch of contradictions in the paper 09:35:23 what exactly are you doing? 09:36:03 Interpreter, Program Inverter, Simplifier, Encoder .. 09:36:03 there's a few things like that which once done should let the self interpreter run 09:36:19 But the semantics of the loop doesn't match with the textual description 09:40:08 which sucks! 09:44:37 My ridiculously complicated calculator can now multiply! 09:44:37 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Calc6.txt 09:44:47 haha that's sick 09:45:59 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:46:02 The ugly business will now be to make one for both multiplication and addition! 09:58:14 oklopol: Which reversible languages do you think are ok ? 09:59:08 heh, there was one where the reversibility was explicit, you could run fibonacci backwards etc :D 09:59:38 i don't remember the name though 10:00:25 -!- Dagide has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:01:04 we've got Kayak on the wiki 10:03:42 Yeah I can run fibonacci backwards 10:03:47 because it uses recursion not loops 10:03:52 as well as Category:reversible computing 10:04:28 Janus is the one I was dealing with 10:04:37 But I'm sure others are capable of the same 10:04:52 kayak is a palindrome!! 10:04:57 i totally get the reference xDD 10:05:00 ... 10:05:09 (sorry, random burst.) 10:05:11 as is revaver 10:05:21 redivider too 10:05:38 i can't do palindromes in english :< 10:05:38 random burst is good! 10:05:52 palindrome(X) :- reverse(X,X). % : 10:05:56 :D 10:06:26 well, i can do palindromes in any language that's fully robust 10:06:51 trying to mean "every string being a legal program" 10:06:59 which of course is not the meaning of robust. 10:07:01 Heh. 10:07:09 I got one hing to say about it, GLYCYLGLYCYLGLYCYLGLYCINE! 10:07:19 can you do a palindromic quine? :) 10:07:35 Well, I can do the empty program. 10:07:38 1 -- is a quine in some languages 10:08:59 my game enema gym :) 10:09:05 damn 10:09:07 i failed. 10:09:29 trust oklopol to mention enemas :) 10:10:09 my game: neon, no enema gym 10:10:39 okay, i guess i can somewhat make palindromes in english too, but i'm a bit slow 10:13:22 What's the biggest ring of interpreters in esoteric languages? 10:13:44 like brainfuck/K/unlambda/brainfuck sort of thing 10:18:27 i am not sure there are that many rings. i have this impression that mostly a simple language is implemented in a more powerful one, or itself. 10:19:02 otoh we do have a table... 10:19:26 Ring? 10:19:38 cycle then 10:21:17 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/EsoInterpreters 10:21:49 we should make a gigantic 2d grid with the whole list of languages on the wiki running on each side, and then put an interpreter written in language on the left for the language on the top in every cell, if one exists! 10:22:04 yes :D 10:22:05 ... 10:22:06 whut 10:22:15 cool oerjan 10:22:20 that was quite a weird coincidence 10:23:06 not really, this cycle thing is exactly what such a table is useful for 10:23:14 now I'm wonder.. how to find the biggest ring given a table 10:23:27 I need an APL command list 10:24:04 first we can remove every language which isn't in _both_ row and column 10:24:18 i want a connection between brainfuck and unlambda... 10:24:27 especially an unlambda interpreter in brainfuck 10:24:39 that sounds tricky to write... 10:24:41 :D 10:25:32 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befreak 10:25:36 leaving: befunge, brainfuck, kipple, minus, subleq, um-32, underload, unlambda 10:25:39 seems like there is a befreak in K .. 10:25:44 but it's not in the table? 10:26:22 always omissions :) 10:26:40 K isn't really meant to be an esolang 10:27:01 although it's more eso than many on the wiki :;) 10:27:18 oh... 10:27:26 It's K as in the APL-like language 10:27:35 I thought it was Lazy-K or something 10:27:44 WHat is an esolang? 10:27:49 minus, subleq, um-32 and overload are only related to themselves 10:28:13 er wait there is also brainfuck in underload 10:28:43 er, the other way 10:29:13 faxathisia: the fine line between weird languages and esolangs is whether the creator 1) knew about esolangs 2) wanted an esolang status 10:29:25 making esolangs doesn't really bring much profit :P 10:29:28 in any way, my conclusion is there are _no_ length > 1 cycles in that table 10:29:34 :( 10:30:05 no loops :O 10:30:10 whutz 10:30:16 we must avert this crisis 10:30:51 it's a long time since i actually programmed in an esolang 10:31:05 perhaps i should make an interpreter 10:31:05 * faxathisia wonders which lang to write an interpreter for in which 10:31:12 oklopol! yeah! 10:31:13 -!- iEhird_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:31:14 dice!' 10:31:17 throw them! 10:31:21 why not unlambda interpreter in brainfuck 10:31:27 for you :p 10:31:31 hehe :P 10:31:37 perhaps, shouldn't be too hard 10:31:51 maybe I should try brainfuck in unlambda? 10:31:52 or something else 10:32:00 or, perhaps i'll use bitchanger 10:32:09 i think bitchanger is much sexier 10:32:24 (bitxtreme!) 10:33:55 Fuck. That calculator thingy is impossible for large amounts. 10:34:17 it's interesting that it's a lot easier to write song lyrics in english than in finnish, but simultaneously i cannot come up with any good long palindromes 10:34:59 perhaps i detect suckyness easier in finnish lyrics than in english ones 10:35:28 otoh the easiest way to get a 2-cycle may be to implement in brainfuck one of the many things that already implement brainfuck 10:38:25 or perhaps underload the other way. 10:39:27 oh wait, underload has no input 10:39:41 so brainfuck in underload 10:39:44 oh 10:39:50 There's gotta be a really neat way in APL/J to find the longest cycle in a graph... 10:39:55 given the connecitivity matrix 10:40:38 i had an (somewhat) interesting idea for specifying graphs 10:40:45 yes? :D 10:40:55 you have a haskell type system -like way to specify trees 10:40:57 this _is_ NP-complete, the hamiltonian cycle problem 10:41:02 ack ok thanks 10:41:09 I didn't realize it was the same thing 10:41:09 but, you can add an additional id tag to every node 10:41:59 although you can find the maximal fully connected components more easily... 10:42:05 hmm I don't think its' hamiltonian cycle problem.. 10:42:18 I only want the biggest cycle, It needn't traverse the entire graph 10:42:27 so you could, for example, make a 2d grid by taking a node in the grid, and making it a tree with 4 children == the ones that go from that point to the edges 10:42:35 eh 10:42:37 but to know if it _is_ biggest, you need to solve the HCP 10:42:39 not children, branches. 10:43:04 for this http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/8628/picture3sn0.png http://rafb.net/p/lAvWd238.txt 10:43:07 each branch would then extend itself to 2 branches every step, those branches again reaching for the top 10:43:23 now carrying position around would effectively create a 2d grid. 10:43:27 did that make any sense? 10:43:35 oklopol, Is that the same thing in my paste? 10:43:39 or a different hing.. 10:44:09 hmm, not sure :D 10:44:33 a 2d grid, basically an array[x][y], where every node in there has a connection to it's 4 neighbors 10:44:52 and the edges the 3 neighbors etcx 10:44:54 *-x 10:45:38 basically, you make a whole tree, but use id tags to specify where the branches should meet and form more complex connections than tree-like 10:46:09 i should make the syntax ready... this is hard to explain 10:53:09 every attempt to formalize this makes it overly verbose :D 10:59:12 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p332633336.txt 10:59:15 graph lambdas! 11:07:45 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p146432433.txt <<< dynamic scoping detected!! 11:08:04 i actually didn't realize what i was doing with the tags is essentially dynamic scoping 11:08:15 until i actually managed to write something with them 11:08:51 anyhow, lambdas + recursion equations with id tags for graphs, what do you think? 11:09:17 this is the one and only place where i should be able to get opinions on this, so don't be shy 11:09:51 also, does my notation make any sense, i think it does, but i'm wrong 92% of the time 11:10:22 Is p146432433.txt a function of one parameter? 11:10:26 basically Int -> Graph 11:11:08 yes 11:11:18 cool I think your notation makes sense then 11:11:27 nice, how about the lambda one? :) 11:11:34 nameless graph structure 11:12:02 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p113552143.txt 11:13:33 Why not write it this way instead: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p231424322.txt ? 11:13:49 basically, it says "the node tagged (x y) is two-way connected to nodes ((x+1) y) and (x (y+1)) for every x in 0..maxx-1 and y in 0..maxy-1" 11:14:42 well, i want it to be a first-class citizen 11:14:47 that can be passed around 11:14:56 so that you can make graphs on the fly 8DD 11:15:27 my grand idea is to make a graph rewriting language, something that united tree rewriting and cellular automata 11:15:32 *unites 11:17:04 the thing that troubles me a bit about the lambda notation, is that those things don't really overlap in usability 11:17:48 meaning that you can specify some graphs using the lambda notation trivially, while it's simultaneously almost impossible to do in the tree+tag notation 11:18:05 on the other hand, i think the tree notation is tc, while the lambda one is not. 11:19:00 so, the other one is more usable than the other, while the other is more powerful in theory... i kinda feel that a lambda for creating graphs should just be a shorthand for the actual graph declaration mechanism, not a completely separate way to define them 11:19:35 that is prolly because it's like that for functions + lambdas, and i for some reason need a sort of an isomorphism between my graph things and funxxxions 11:20:32 i should use a smaller font, it's depressing to fill a few screens with messages without response :D 11:21:03 *or*, i could just shut up 11:21:06 No need to have it turing complete! 11:21:14 is there? 11:21:22 is there what 11:21:28 any need to have it tc 11:21:51 I mean 'capable of expressing a wide range of structures/computations' vs 'tc' 11:21:53 well, i would like it being able to specify *any* graph structure. 11:22:09 hm... 11:22:16 but, it's not necessary, no 11:22:44 What (finite) graph would you need turing completness to express 11:22:57 well, trivially none 11:23:05 unless you wanna parametrize 11:23:35 you could, in theory, want a graph that somehow flunctuates with the digits of pi or something 11:23:36 i dunno! :D 11:24:08 hohoho, lazy infinite graphs! 11:24:09 xD 11:24:18 hehe :D 11:24:47 actually, that's not even that far-fetched, given that you prolly want that for cellular automata anyway... 11:24:49 * faxathisia writes some shamefully crap code to find the longest cycle in a graph... 11:25:06 i'm *sure* there is some magic one liner in an array programming language 11:25:29 i'm pretty sure there's a primitive function for that in my graph language! 11:25:33 just you wait! 11:25:37 * faxathisia waits... 11:25:52 actually, there may be problems once i start thinking about stuff like that 11:26:34 i tend to be very idealistic, every function will basically have to be some sort of a rewriting rule 11:27:00 so stuff that actually computes something about the structure of a graph is hard to express 11:27:33 or not... not sure, i've mostly considered the awesomeness, not so much the usability! 11:28:10 faxathisia: you can stop waiting now, unless you have a *lot* of time 11:28:13 hehe 11:28:22 well this code is crap http://paste.lisp.org/display/52132 11:28:29 but I don't know how to do it better 11:28:41 so I can plug the eso interpreter matrix into it later on 11:28:48 (once more interpreters are written :p) 11:32:15 coool, lisp 11:32:56 hmm, what does the graph signify exactly? 11:33:35 (a d e) means there's a... connection from a to d and d to e? 11:34:04 there is an arc from a->d and a->e 11:34:36 I guess I could have written it (a . (d e)) 11:36:10 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p231253223.txt <<< i think i have the 2d grid now 11:36:18 it's a bit verbose, but i think it's correct 11:36:35 changed =, the tagging thingie, to :: 11:37:16 since = is nice when you just want identity, and not a tagging or a connection 11:38:05 (although connecting [2dGraph x y :: (x y)} to {2dGraph x y mx my :: (xy)} wouldn't make an actual connection anyway, since the tags are the same...) 11:38:35 ah 11:38:39 of course it means that 11:44:40 heh, once again i stare for 5 minutes at a code before i realize i will never get it since i don't know what mapcar is :D 11:45:01 i suck at reading other people's code 11:45:10 (mapcar #'square '(5 6 8)) -> (25 36 8*8???) 11:46:30 :=) 11:46:30 does that explain it? :p 11:46:46 * faxathisia should avoid such large numbers as 8 when giving examples... 11:46:53 oerjan: as the official mathematician, can you help faxathisia calculate 8*8 :P 11:47:14 that's a tricky one, gotta admit. 11:47:27 You expect a mathematician to know 8*8?? :P 11:48:15 well, i expect the official mathematician to know it 11:48:21 ! 11:48:26 lol 11:49:26 well, actually i'd assume any programmer to have the powers of two as a reflex 11:49:41 anyhow, mapcar is... map? 11:49:57 i guess mapcar is more descriptive 11:50:02 or not 11:50:04 dunno 11:50:42 too many functions i don't know used in there, does not parse. 11:51:17 faxathisia: did the new 2dGraph i made with explicit tree structurizing make sense? 11:51:23 you can click on the function names oklopol 11:51:28 it will give you a full desription of them 11:51:34 but... my code is basically utter crap 11:51:36 8*8 = 8*(7+1) = 8*7+8*1 = 8*(6+1)+8*1 = ... 11:51:40 so I don't think there's much point understanding it 11:51:55 ah oerjan, reduced it to the harder problem of 8*7 + 8 :) 11:52:07 you generate everything possible and check 'em? 11:52:40 you've got problems recursing? 11:52:48 i'd say 8->1000_2, 1000*1000 = 1000000_2 11:53:37 if you want only top-of-tree rewriting then you can rewrite in continuation-passing style, i believe 11:53:38 oerjan: i think the human brain can only handle tail recursion 11:54:55 oerjan: opinions on my graph thingie! :D 11:55:13 and don't give me that crap about you not being qualified for that 11:55:22 ! 11:56:12 fine, i'll give you crap about not being in the mood instead... 11:56:33 and being on my way out the door, besides 11:56:51 oh 11:57:04 back when my brain is refilled :) 11:57:15 recharged, whatever 11:57:18 well, bye then, and remind me to fix my crap filter, it seems to have holes! 11:57:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lunch"). 12:11:48 -!- jix has joined. 12:47:57 -!- Sabskm has joined. 13:03:22 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:21:06 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p666413311.txt hypercubz 13:22:01 oh, there's an error 13:22:11 not that it matters since i didn't explain the syntax :D 13:28:50 -!- faxathisia has quit ("Leaving"). 13:29:57 -!- faxathisia has joined. 13:37:40 * faxathisia cannot decide which box to fill in from http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/EsoInterpreters 13:37:41 :[ 13:41:59 there is befunge in zetaplex, brainfuck in befunge, and BCT, Underload, UTM in brainfuck 13:43:48 zetaplex in underload 13:49:12 :O 13:49:19 zetaplex looks awesome 13:49:24 i haven't seen it 13:49:29 yeah it does 13:50:13 oh, it's a 2d language, should've guessed that's the only way to get that cool-looking code :P 13:50:26 mm it looks awfly hard to write an interpreter for zetaplex though 13:51:08 (in an esolang) 13:51:45 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p133626425.txt this should be game of life, but i should really add some syntax that makes a difference between a graph and a transition... 13:52:48 i'm currently marking state changes with a !! 13:53:01 I don't understand that 13:53:08 which part? 13:53:13 the code you pasted 13:53:19 the grid thing in the beginning should be easy 13:53:27 i'll explain 13:53:47 Grid = Grid 0 0 -- a grid is a grid starting at 0 0 13:54:26 Grid x y = 0 <-> ... -- a grid node at x y has value 0 (= 0) and is connected to adjacent cells (<-> Grid .., Grid .., etc) 13:54:33 was that of any help? 13:55:20 the transition part will definitely change anyway, so no use explaining that 13:55:35 that's the bit I didn't understand :p 13:55:51 do you now? 13:56:19 !! g![x y] = 1 means, take the thing in g tagged with [x y], and make it's value 1 13:56:31 hmm 13:56:48 What about !! {t\g}*10 13:56:53 heh 13:57:03 x\y means for all y do x 13:57:13 t\g means do transition t to g 13:57:25 !! means there is a state transformation 13:57:45 f*10 means, do f 10 times, with params 0..10 13:57:58 that's helpful when doing multiple branches. 13:58:50 also, the syntax is somewhat weird in that it's infix when you don't separate with whitespace, but prefix when you do separate... so (+ 5 2) = 5+2 xD 13:59:17 that's nice since a pattern like [x+1 y-3] is often needed 13:59:46 [(+ x 1) (- y 3)] is verbose, but i find infix ugly in large portions 13:59:47 cool 14:00:06 so... decided to do something really weird there 14:00:29 i like playing around with the details as well as the big picture when making a language 14:01:02 me no like teh transition thingie... 14:02:43 hey, i could have lowercase for variables, uppercase for node/graph names, zumbercase for transitions, and nimbiecase for normal functions. 14:02:54 oh, right, there's not zumber and nimbie. 14:03:09 such a rookie mistake 14:03:26 I've never heard of zumbercase or nimbiecase 14:03:39 naturally, i'd like everything to be a graph :D 14:04:42 perhaps i could do something like having a function be a graph with a certain structure, like something with tag #funx for the root, and then two branches, #from and #to, and then add support for kinda first-class citizen variable names 14:04:44 or something. 14:05:15 it'd be notoriously complicated and weird, but i'd feel pure again 14:05:21 :) 14:05:42 faxathisia: there's no zumber and nimbie, i was just amusing myself. 14:06:27 lol now i'm actually considering that :D 14:06:47 wonder if i should still make it possible to program functionally without knowing the underlying sick structure 14:07:54 need to sleep for half an hour or so -> 14:08:22 to get the mental juices flowing 14:26:58 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:28:00 -!- jix has joined. 14:32:53 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 14:47:52 -!- wooby has joined. 14:48:12 hello 14:48:35 Hi. 14:49:12 how are things 14:49:40 Fine, fine. 14:50:16 im reading up on bf hardware here, people have done some interesting things with the PIC 15:02:32 -!- wooby has quit. 15:23:08 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:23:10 -!- Sabskm has changed nick to Slereah. 15:23:12 -!- puzzlet has joined. 15:30:11 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 15:54:09 -!- faxathisia has quit ("Leaving"). 15:56:55 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 15:57:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:06:52 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:06:59 -!- Tritonio__ has joined. 16:07:36 -!- Tritonio__ has changed nick to Tritonio_. 16:10:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:12:26 -!- jix has joined. 16:16:21 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 16:17:51 -!- MonkeyofDoom has joined. 16:18:11 helloes 16:18:31 Hies. 16:18:35 'afternoon 16:19:46 has anyone here ever gotten INTERCAL to work on a windows pc? 16:23:06 I've been trying for days but all that's come of it is a bunch of NO SKELETON IN MY CLOSET, WOE IS ME! messages and a bunch of "use linux or suicide" sentiments 16:23:23 Install Cygwin? 16:23:39 if ais523 were here, i'm sure he could help 16:24:00 he's the C-INTERCAL maintainer 16:24:10 Oh? 16:24:25 or so he claimed in an email i got the other day :) 16:25:28 hm 16:25:58 I'm pretty sure I have cygwin installed 16:26:01 * MonkeyofDoom keyofDoom checks* 16:27:16 I have mingw at least 16:28:13 "Builds and runs nicely under any ANSI/POSIX platform" 16:30:21 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:32:19 it's not building or running nicely on windows though 16:32:36 I'm trying the 0.15 port to dos right now 16:32:40 Which isn't a POSIX platform. 16:35:58 -!- Tritonio__ has joined. 16:36:39 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:41:06 yeah 16:41:29 hence my current attempt with the DOS port 16:41:40 which still isn't working 16:44:54 i haven't tried any of them but my impression from how they were used in haskell was that MinGW was to create "ordinary" windows programs but CygWin is closer to a Posix environment 16:45:07 I see 16:45:41 my current problem is that I've got the thing "installed" according to instructions 16:46:02 but I still get errors that indicate lack of proper installation in all the other cases I've found 16:48:37 "Cygwin aims to provide a complete POSIX layer (similar to that found in a Linux or other Unix systems) on top of Windows, sacrificing performance where necessary for compatibility, while MinGW aims to provide only a free compiler and toolchain, prioritizing performance." 16:50:33 (from wikipedia:mingw) 16:54:53 I suppose I can try using cygwin 16:55:04 hopefully magic things work 16:56:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:57:02 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:10:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:22:04 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:38:06 -!- MonkeyofDoom has quit (" magic *nix takes time and soul donation"). 18:02:36 -!- jix has joined. 18:50:29 -!- Slereah_ has changed nick to Slereah. 19:01:04 -!- digital_me has joined. 19:02:34 -!- AnMaster has quit (Client Quit). 19:03:49 -!- digital_me has quit (Client Quit). 19:29:55 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 19:30:41 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:53:15 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out). 19:53:26 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 19:54:28 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 20:15:33 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 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joined. 23:56:51 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2007-12-09: 00:10:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:16:36 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 00:28:43 -!- puzzlet has quit (Connection timed out). 00:36:10 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 00:39:38 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 00:40:47 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:41:00 -!- puzzlet has joined. 00:53:22 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:53:45 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:25:03 -!- iEhird has joined. 01:25:19 /join #web 01:25:22 eh 01:25:27 -!- iEhird has left (?). 01:25:58 -!- iEhird has joined. 01:26:02 -!- Jontte has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 01:26:28 I refuse to join #web. 01:27:02 i'll do it! 01:28:01 hahaha 01:28:18 The AFO and Agora's Child *also* refuse. 01:31:56 -!- iEhird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:33:50 -!- iEhird has joined. 01:42:46 -!- iEhird has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:43:15 -!- iEhird has joined. 01:50:10 -!- iEhird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:50:22 -!- iEhird has joined. 02:02:02 -!- iEhird has quit. 02:17:21 -!- immibis has joined. 02:17:35 -!- immibis has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:30:06 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:30:10 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:37:37 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 03:47:59 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:52:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:55:13 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:21:12 I'm reading a book about 6502 assembly that was written in 1979. It's great. 04:25:00 I particularly enjoy the fact that when discussing high-level languages it only mentions FORTRAN, COBOL, Pascal, PL/1, APL and BASIC. 04:36:29 "A bootstrap loader is a program that uses it's own first few instructions to load the rest of itself or another loader program into memory. The bootstrap loader may be in ROM, or you may need to enter it into the computer memory using front panel switches." 04:37:45 Another fun feature is that "Computer user" and "Computer programmer" are used more or less interchangeably, because it's assumed anyone using a computer knows how to program it in some fashion. 04:37:50 Ah, the good old days. 04:50:44 Oooh, retrocomputing. 04:51:54 retrocomputing is where it's at 04:53:19 I was once having lunch with some businesspeople and the conversation shifted to the C64. After going into a bunch of details about the chipset and intricacies of the BASIC implementation, one guy turned over to me and said "Wait... *how* old are you?" 04:53:54 "erm... 19..." *priceless WTF expression* 04:55:01 and Post-Indexed Indirect Addressing hurts my brain 04:55:12 * pikhq salutes you 04:56:03 I will conquer this beautiful instruction set, I promise myself! 04:58:19 "This mode means that the second byte of the instruction contains an address in the first 256 bytes of memory. That address and the next location contain an address which is added to the contents of the Y register to obtain the effective address." 04:58:40 I'm really having difficulty imagining the cases in which this is useful. 04:59:32 maybe to make it easier to re-use the constants used to point to an array or something? 05:00:58 I suppose that way you wouldn't have to waste two bytes of immediate data where you can use one as a pointer and have all similar operations point to the same pair stored somewhere high in memory. 05:24:24 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:24:31 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:41:34 -!- chatty has joined. 05:44:04 -!- chatty has left (?). 07:20:16 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 07:32:20 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:55:30 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:55:37 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:24:26 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 08:44:41 -!- 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peer)). 18:22:19 -!- cmeme has joined. 18:32:12 -!- naerian has joined. 18:32:27 hi :) 18:34:54 Hi. 18:35:13 geez, are they dead? :P 18:36:44 Nah. It's just slow to drum up some activity. 18:37:10 Give them time to take a look at their IRC window! 18:37:20 heh. what esolang do you like most? :D 18:37:40 Well, I got started on brainfuck. 18:37:53 me too. I even wrote an interpreter of it :D 18:37:59 But for some reason, I got back on esolangs when reading about logic. 18:38:11 :D 18:38:15 For some metatheorems, I had to read about Turing machines and such! 18:38:20 * oerjan dances a skeleton dance 18:38:25 xD 18:39:33 i'm thinking about an water-pipe esolang :P 18:40:43 And running it using real waterpipes? :O 18:40:50 How awesome would that be. 18:40:54 :P 18:41:17 "Pump harder! I need those results!" 18:41:23 xD 18:41:42 heh, yeah that would be nice :P 18:41:56 I wonder if an actual Turing machine was ever built. 18:42:04 With some real tape and such. 18:42:23 i think i've read about such Turing machine... 18:42:32 but with finite tape ofc 18:42:54 Infinite tape isn't cheap. 18:43:09 But you can sell half of it, and still have infinite tape! 18:43:38 :D 18:51:26 i can't find the photos of that TM now :P 18:52:07 I saw a very small Turing machine equivalent that used little trains. 18:52:27 :D 18:52:36 that had to be cool :P 18:53:20 http://www.monochrom.at/turingtrainterminal/pictures_eng.htm 18:53:57 http://www.monochrom.at/turingtrainterminal/schematics_eng.htm 18:54:55 nice :D 18:57:56 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 18:58:10 have you saw any other projects of TM? :D 18:58:38 Not a whole lot. 18:59:29 * pikhq enters 18:59:35 Hello sir. 19:00:47 hello, pikhq 19:00:49 I still have some code that was supposed to emulate a Turing machine. 19:00:53 :D 19:01:00 But I don't have a very long attention span. 19:01:21 I have a need to find something to cod. 19:01:24 Code, even. 19:01:28 :D 19:01:42 * pikhq codes up a cod 19:02:03 -!- Jontte has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 19:02:24 Right now, I'm trying to code up the final touch on my ludicrous calculator. 19:02:31 :D 19:03:04 and i'm thinking about making a small brainfuck system for Nintendo DS xD 19:03:28 pikhq: implement a couple of tag systems for fun 19:03:39 bitwise cyclic tag! woo! 19:04:27 :P 19:06:06 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Calc9.txt 19:06:08 I should join the Fantasy Rules Commission and come up with a *really* annoying ordinance. 19:06:19 It can multiply 15 by itself in less than 2000 lines! 19:06:29 But, you know, with rigor. 19:06:30 Something that requires every further ordinance to be valid C? 19:06:51 :P 19:07:14 Slereah: Call me less than impressed. *I* can shove that in 20,000 lines. :p 19:07:53 Hmm. A multiplication pass, with a built-in Glass interpreter, which is *only* used to call A.m? 19:08:05 Well, I guess you could make it all in ZFC axioms and (p|(q|r))|((s|(s|s))|((t|q)|((p|t)|(p|t)))) for propositional logic. 19:08:24 But I just wanted to do it with sum Peano's axioms. 19:10:46 -!- thucydides has joined. 19:11:09 hi, thucidides 19:11:23 -!- thucydides has quit (Client Quit). 19:11:41 Bye, thucidides! 19:15:59 jeez, i must go :/ 19:16:03 bye all :P 19:16:07 Bye. 19:16:08 -!- naerian has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:16:27 * oerjan thinks some people need tab completion 19:16:39 oer: no we don't 19:17:10 bsmntbombdood: when you cannot spell thucydides you do 19:18:07 -!- Jontte has joined. 19:18:08 Tab completion doesn't work if he's not here. 19:18:41 that may be true. 19:19:09 or it might be a feature request :D 19:21:36 pikhq: it would actually be more of a trick to inflate an operation like that into 20,000 lines entirely without dead or unreachable code 19:21:51 and preprocessor macros don't count either! 19:22:49 Well, Metamath can decompose 2+2 in 23.000 steps. 19:23:10 heh 19:23:32 RodgerTheGreat: Believe me, I can do it. :p 19:23:36 that isn't exactly doing the computation, though- it's proving why it works from axioms 19:23:42 pikhq: oh, I don't doubt that 19:23:51 First, one needs to define your numbers. 19:24:04 Then define addition. As a recursive algorithm. 19:24:05 ;p 19:24:15 try to work in a couple fourier transforms 19:24:23 But technically, it is still computation :O 19:25:38 Although indeed I'm not sure if you could just enter 2+2 and get 2+2=2 at the exit. That's not exactly what's done there. 19:25:44 Errr, 4. 19:25:51 yay, Schnhage-Strassen 19:26:49 "2 plus 2 is... 10. IN BASE 4, I'M FINE!" 19:27:39 IT ARE s(s(s(s(0)))) 19:27:44 Damn your bases! 19:28:11 -!- oklopol_ has joined. 19:28:29 Damn your lambda calculus! 19:28:36 ALL YOUR B*HIT BY FALLING PIANO* 19:28:44 heh 19:29:02 I don't know much lambda calculus 19:29:04 But what's more fun then defining all numbers via Church numerals? 19:29:08 Speaking of which. . . 19:29:36 GregorR: Let Plof type "int" be castable to a function. ;) 19:43:28 I hate getting back on old code. 19:43:35 "What the fuck was that guy thinking?" 19:43:43 This is the mystery on the table! 19:48:16 -!- oklopol_ has changed nick to oklopol. 20:48:33 that's the thing about coding- the better you get the more you hate your past self 20:49:08 In the past, I'd hack shit together. nowadays I try to write code hoping future self will approve. 20:49:51 heh 20:50:31 Heh. 20:50:47 Problem is, I kinda suck right now too :o 20:50:54 heH: 20:58:09 Slereah: were you the one who started at the age of 19? 20:58:48 Yes. 20:59:08 And even right now, we don't learn any programming. 20:59:18 Just some integration algorithm. 20:59:22 how old are you? 20:59:26 21. 21:00:15 There was an optional class about computation, computability and all that, but it got canceled before I could apply 21:00:36 what country? and no, i'm not going to whois! 21:00:41 France. 21:00:57 they're cancelling everything interesting here too 21:01:10 the institute is prolly empty once i get there :P 21:01:21 (not officially in yet) 21:03:07 I'll try to sneak in some CS class next year! 21:05:45 The cancelation made me sad, because the rest of the optional classes are horrible. 21:09:09 heh, i've spent hours just browsing the courses they have here :P 21:09:50 "uhhh i want that one.. and oh my god that's awesome.. wow, they have a course on cellular automata 8DD" 21:10:01 Heh. 21:10:18 We don't have a whole lot of that, and I have access to even less, since I do physics. 21:11:06 -!- ehird` has joined. 21:38:24 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:30:59 fuckers plowed the streets 22:31:05 makes skiiing hard >_< 22:31:39 skiiiiiiiiiiiiing 22:36:09 ski'ing is always hard, this is why most people name their parameters 22:41:27 I much prefer sk'ing. 23:08:59 -!- Jontte has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:13:45 -!- Jontte has joined. 23:14:22 -!- Jontte has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:14:58 -!- Jontte has joined. 23:51:52 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 2007-12-10: 00:12:05 maybe i'll ski to school tommorow 00:14:13 :< 00:14:16 we have rain here... 00:15:18 * pikhq reboots for kernel 00:16:32 in Trondheim we have a snow, rain, ice, hip bone fracture cycle :/ 00:17:00 which currently is firmly in the ice stage 00:18:40 hip bone? 00:18:43 -!- pikhq has quit (Connection reset by peer). 00:19:05 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:20:22 hmm, the dialect of lisp in my head is pretty esoteric 00:20:25 hip or leg, i guess 00:20:49 e.g. for one thing (although this isn't THAT esoteric), you can marshal continuations to a bytestring 00:22:51 fun fact: if you put gravel on ice to make it safe to walk, and it then snows/rains a bit, the gravel gets embedded in the ice so it only _looks_ safe. 00:23:59 awesome 00:24:26 i don't fall on ice, ice falls under me 00:24:55 i guess that makes me chuck norris or something 00:25:18 depends. do you cry? 00:25:19 ice rises up to smack you 00:27:31 hmm, i don't think my formatting lang is crazy enough 00:27:42 it's more like printf than cl's format :-) 00:27:56 is it TC yet? 00:29:53 no :-( 00:30:11 it does have a loop construct, though! 00:30:46 not sure about the syntax, but i'm thinking ^l{element,generator,...} 00:31:24 ^l{x,(cdr some-list),^?{(car x)} 00:31:27 that's crazy 00:31:34 that's lisp for ya 00:31:46 that could barely be called lisp :-) 00:32:00 methinks i should replace the formatting lang with some way of embedding lisp 00:32:34 like, ~"Hello, #\thing!" 00:32:42 ~"Hello, #\(car thing)!" 00:33:07 ~"Hello, \#\! I typed that in as: \\\#\." 00:33:18 oklopol: oerjan: that seems a bit too sane, doesn't it? :-) 00:34:03 hmm 00:34:34 quite nice 00:34:41 so REMOVE IT 00:34:48 you could do ~expr too to apply it on a string 00:35:08 i'm so tired i think i'll write a song about it 00:35:15 templating language = (in ~templ) :P 00:37:18 actually, maybe the root of my problem is: this kind of fucking sucks 00:37:30 instead: concat operator ~ 00:37:39 (~ "Hello, " thing "!") 00:37:46 (~ "Hello, " (car thing) "!") 00:37:58 (~ "Hello, #\! I typed that in as, er.... #\.") 00:40:08 Which will basically be (defproc (~ . args) (apply append (map ->string args))) 00:42:35 oklopol: it's not very esoteric now is it 00:43:33 indeed not 00:43:51 (apply append (...))? 00:43:56 why not append 00:44:16 actually not sure what apply is, possibly. 00:44:46 i guess it might be reduce or something 00:45:14 (apply x '(1 2 3)) -> (x 1 2 3) 00:45:25 :O 00:45:32 i see. 00:45:37 (defproc (~ . args) ...) ; args is a list, but of course append takes many arguments and shoves them together, so we need to use apply 00:45:45 to explain 00:45:49 the translation of ~ to python is 00:46:08 define tilde(*args): append(*map(to_string, args)) 00:46:15 err, s/define/def and add a return 00:46:16 but yeah 00:46:30 oerjan: i often cry because of my malfunctioning eyes, never because i'm sad; is that a problem regarding chuck'ness? 00:47:19 oklopol: Screen brightness. Turn it down. :P 00:47:44 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 00:48:00 append? 00:48:07 i didn't know python had that as a function 00:48:17 neither does my python interp :\ 00:48:26 it doesn't 00:48:29 it was a direct translation 00:48:29 oh 00:48:33 the idea is to figure out what apply does 00:48:50 here's a definition of apply in python 00:48:57 def apply(func, args): return func(*args) 00:48:59 you see? 00:50:34 oh 00:50:37 right. 00:51:49 :-) 00:52:39 need... sleep 00:55:27 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:55:45 oklopol: i am not sure. check the cancer-curing properties. 00:56:25 !check cancer curing properties 00:56:52 cccp 00:57:02 oh dear 00:57:20 you filthy communist or something 00:57:54 i am just thinking that the collapse of the soviet union lost us the cure for cancer 00:57:56 -!- puzzlet has quit (Connection timed out). 00:58:06 the screen brightness can't really be an issue, since i've had multiple screens, and they hurt with any screen 00:58:46 also, it's weird how i think of an answer right away, but for some reason answer much later, even if the guy has already gone 00:59:03 fractured hip 00:59:46 we are approaching a black hole, strange time dilation observed 01:00:10 i thought only old people fractured their hips 01:00:41 mostly so i guess 01:01:06 young people don't have hips, hips are something you get with menopause 01:01:26 apparently scandinavia also has the world's highest incidence of osteoporosis, or something 01:01:56 that's mainly because the polar bears eat the cows. 01:02:33 i am not sure, because i also think we have some of the highest milk intake 01:03:28 i even vaguely recall someone suggesting milk might actually _hurt_ bone calcium, in some perverse way 01:03:51 now that was probably dubious even when i read/heard it 01:05:57 I'd suspect genetic influence. 01:06:00 you can scientifically prove anything 01:06:36 oklopol: Actually, you can't scientifically prove anything: science cannot prove, only guess, observe, and disprove. 01:06:39 oerjan is old enough to be my dad 01:07:17 i'm old enough to be my own dad 01:07:20 oerjan can't be *that* old. 01:07:52 Just because he's got a Ph.D. doesn't make him quite that old. ;) 01:08:03 oerjan is 32 01:08:28 why thank you. 01:08:35 hmm nevermind then 01:08:36 some people ask, i give incorrect information and wait for things to happen 01:08:37 but actually, 37. 01:08:38 oh, right 01:08:41 he would have to be a very young dad 01:08:45 age doesn't work that way. 01:08:46 oh, that's more like it 01:08:51 So, he's moderately close to how old my mom is. 01:09:18 have i told the story of how i almost became a dad when i was 15 01:09:45 that oklopol 01:09:53 i guess i just told it 01:09:56 didn't your mommy teach you to use protection? 01:10:01 :D 01:10:12 i don't like condoms 01:10:43 but let's try to keep the conversation non-genitaley for once? 01:11:03 conversations should only be about sex and programming 01:11:19 software exchange ftw 01:11:32 * pikhq programs sex 01:11:50 uhh small deja vu 01:12:59 sexbot passes turing-test! 01:14:48 yep, no surprise 01:15:09 wonder if i should read one chapter more, watch an fg or go to sleep 01:15:27 In that order. 01:16:01 well, who am i to say no 01:16:07 * oklopol reads 01:16:28 only 42 pages 01:16:39 -!- RobHu has joined. 01:16:56 what are you reading? 01:20:07 -!- RobHu has left (?). 01:26:45 i think i'm reading the art of assembly language 01:27:05 DAMN, r.e.s. is dense. 01:27:21 *cough* 01:28:04 you mean bob wyatt? 01:28:11 answers.com never fails 01:28:37 now, i mean the one on our wiki. 01:28:49 *no 01:30:31 ah, the nothing 01:30:42 i disagree, i think nothingness is far from dense 01:31:16 DAMN, oklopol is dense. on purpose, even. 01:31:45 :D 01:32:28 r.e.s.? 01:32:43 well, yes, that's what i meant with "bob wyatt" 01:32:45 we're having an argument. :) 01:32:54 oh, right 01:33:05 oerjan: shut up you disoriented fool! 01:33:25 I see. 01:33:37 * oklopol still doesn't 01:34:06 oklopol: Talk:Brainhype 01:34:26 I looked at the recent changes, saw a *lot* of stuff from R.e.s 01:35:04 It's computable because you could use an oracle to interpret it? WTF? 01:35:14 I see he doesn't know what "computable" means. 01:36:36 not sure what's hard to exist in gravity 01:37:09 also, why does he mention gravity if he hasn't bothered to read the 50 lines of it on the wiki :P 01:37:25 let's all mock him now, yes? 01:37:30 why ain't i reading... 01:41:46 Although I love how Brainhype seems to profess to claim to solve the halting problem for Brainhype. 01:58:18 argh 01:58:20 can't read 01:58:22 must 01:58:24 sleep -> 01:58:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Springs_church_shooting 01:59:44 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:59:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("fix('Z':)"). 02:01:21 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:08:19 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 02:10:17 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:13:23 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 02:14:59 pikhq: again, terrible performance 02:20:19 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:22:30 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:32:55 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Connection timed out). 04:45:41 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:46:28 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:53:27 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 05:02:57 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:03:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:08:42 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:10:56 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:49:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:11:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:11:16 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 06:27:48 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:27:49 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:45:29 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 07:15:11 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 07:15:12 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:48:27 lol... someone tell me a good way to reverse a list in bf :D 09:48:33 this is fucking huge :\ 09:48:34 [<-[+<<-]+<[[->+<]+[>[->>+<<]>]>[->>+<<]>[>[->>+<<]>]>[-<+>]<-[<<]<]<]>>>[>>]<<[->>+<<]>> 09:49:08 pebble to the rescue? 09:50:03 Let me see. 09:51:14 i can give you the version vwith comments 09:51:21 unless you wanna decipher yourself 09:51:38 well, not really comments, just the same thing in pseudocode 09:51:56 wellll, almost the same 09:53:05 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p655362262.txt the notation is in no way consistent, but the examples may show what it does, unless you already found out 09:53:28 x's are the list to reverse, it can't contain zeroes 09:54:00 Thanks. 09:54:03 it's just i'm pretty sure there's a "oneliner" for that 09:55:32 curr-=n sometimes means to move the pointer, sometimes to change the value xD 09:56:03 There was a contest a while ago to reverse a zero-terminated byte string. Judged on prog length * mem use * commands executed, I think, but the shortest was Bertram Felgenhauer's here >[[[>]>+<<[<]>-]>[[<+>-]>]<<]>>>[[<<+>>-]>]<<<<[<] 09:56:19 oh 09:56:25 then i consider mine well enough 09:56:26 Although I'm thinking with all the known 1s it must be possible to do better. 09:56:40 they're not known 09:56:43 they are added 09:56:49 x's are the list 09:56:57 1's are to help me reverse it... 09:57:02 I mean, after they're added, then they're known. I.e. by the time the reverse happens those bytes are known to be 1. 09:57:10 ah, well yeah 09:58:42 i was fearing you could do that somehow just as simply as reversed catting 09:59:01 not that i have any idea what that code does. 10:00:14 heh, you know you haven't done brainfuck for a while when you consider reversing a string a trivial task :D 10:00:32 or, you have done it a lot. 10:00:34 either way... 10:02:40 hmm, actually 10:02:44 i'm a fucking idiot. 10:02:58 Yeah? You don't need to reverse it at all? 10:03:17 i could easily make mine a lot faster + shorter 10:03:37 i just realized i can actually move bytes longer distances than a constant one 10:03:42 with [>>] loops 10:03:46 Right. 10:03:53 [+[>>]-[<<]] 10:03:55 or something 10:04:19 didn't occur to me, loooong time since i last did brainfuck, and i'm fairly sure i was a steenking noob back then 10:04:31 Ah. 10:04:44 and, well 10:04:49 not sure whether i need to reverse 10:04:56 i need input in reverse 10:05:09 but... i have right-extended memory 10:05:26 if i don't reverse it, i'll get complications later 10:07:22 Might shift the whole thing right with each input byte. Probably not actually any slower. 10:07:52 >,[[>]<[[>+<-]<]>,] or something. 10:08:42 it shifts 10:08:47 i mean, mine 10:08:53 ooooh 10:09:10 sorry, i forgot the context completely there :P 10:09:45 so obvious, should've thought of that 10:10:09 it's just it's slow to change ordo intuition when switching between languages 10:10:22 Or if you wanted the ones for something other than reversing, more like >,[[>]<[[>>+<<-]<]>>+<,] I think. 10:10:57 i see you have the skill. 10:11:25 Nah, I just barely switch. I rarely write anything except in C or brainfuck. 10:13:04 what more could a programmer possibly need 10:13:11 :) 10:15:04 after trying python, i've become so lazy it was real hard for me to actually get started on my bf project... it's scary when there's actually a possibility there's an error in my code! 10:15:15 well, not trying, using for a few years 10:15:33 or one... i can't assess time really 10:15:56 hmm 10:15:58 "assess" 10:16:09 well, close enough 10:18:03 What's the project, just out of curiosity? 10:18:34 i actually did have an error there, wrote [>-<+]-[<<] when should've had >[-<+>]<-[<<] 10:18:38 oh 10:19:11 thought i'd try making a brainfuck interpreter for unlambda, although quickly changed it to making ski in brainfuck for unknown reasons ;) 10:19:31 in bf code, i'm currently at getting input :D 10:19:40 although, i've had about an hour of coding sofar 10:19:41 :) 10:20:07 i have the algo a bit further on paper, shouldn't be hard to make, but fucking tedious 10:20:40 Right. 10:21:01 pikhq: have you thought about making something a bit more high-level than pebble, where you could do stuff like [set a [+ [* 8 c] b]] 10:21:29 "right" as in "shuuuure...."? :P 10:21:54 "Right" as in "Yeah, tedious.". 10:23:02 And probably really hard to make concise and graceful. 10:23:15 i've tried making ski once in an imperative language, it was the ti-89 basic on my calculator, the implementation as far as i got it was quite interesting, for example, used pictures for a stack :P 10:24:06 yeah, for the actual computation part it'd be nice to get something a bit prettier than a reversing algo that leaves random shit behind :P 10:24:14 (hope you didn't run my reverser...) 10:24:27 I didn't. 10:24:53 it leaves behind ones in place of the original values, plus a one at the beginning 11:22:36 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:41:15 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 13:33:18 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:35:12 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:38:00 -!- tegelane has joined. 13:38:08 -!- tegelane has left (?). 14:17:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("9876543210"). 14:31:49 -!- jix has joined. 14:54:53 -!- ehird` has joined. 15:07:51 -!- Jontte has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:07:58 -!- Jontte has joined. 15:13:12 -!- lament has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:13:20 -!- lament has joined. 15:34:57 -!- Jontte has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:38:12 -!- Jontte has joined. 15:43:04 Yay! 15:43:14 I succeeded with that first Turing machine program on mine! 16:04:46 -!- Jontte has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 16:08:37 hmm 16:08:43 someone rate the esotericness of this idea: 16:09:04 A Scheme implementation that converts to CPS. (Wait, but that isn't esoteric? Chicken does that.) Ah yes -- but it's an interpreter! 16:25:04 ok apparently that doesn't suprise people 16:30:05 Either that or noone's reading. 16:32:04 Slereah: you are, evidently :\-) 16:32:41 Yes, but barely understand your words! 16:40:11 hehe 16:40:17 cps=continuation-passing-style 16:43:40 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:50:37 -!- cherez has joined. 16:56:05 oklopol: it's also written in python, so it will be 10x more crazy than your impl 17:23:56 Rargh. 17:24:40 I can't get some program working, and I don't know if it's because of my interpreter or if I entered it wrong. 17:24:51 I need to find an easier way of typing it in. 17:28:42 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:28:52 -!- jix has joined. 17:29:12 what lang? 17:30:06 I wrote a Turing machine in Python. 17:30:21 And I'm trying to type in this : http://www.abelard.org/turpap2/tp2-ie.asp#section-3 17:30:29 The "001011011101111011111" one. 17:31:06 Since my program asks for every step, it is frustrating to type it. 17:31:20 a 2d program then 17:31:24 Hm? 17:31:28 also: make it read from the file 17:31:30 a file 17:31:55 Well, right now, I'll be happy if I can just copypasta the whole Turing program. 17:32:04 Well, evidently you can't 17:32:20 Well, it can't be bigger than a hundred chars. 17:32:40 If I find a way for the program to read it in one go. 17:33:28 what is this interp written in 17:33:36 Python. 17:34:28 So far, it's that : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/turing.py 17:34:54 Slereah: can i suggest formatting your code? :-) 17:35:08 Can I suggest defining the word "formatting"? 17:35:22 If it means "Clean that thing up", it would be a nice idea. 17:38:22 for a start, add more spaces around binary operators and 'print' 17:38:28 remove the spaces around your function calls 17:38:35 and indent to 4 spaces (python standard) 17:38:35 :-) 17:38:46 Oh. 17:38:56 I don't really pay attention to that. 17:39:12 others who may want to read your code do! 17:39:16 but anyway 17:39:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:39:32 why not just read the stuff from a file 17:39:36 instead of your raw_inputs 17:39:57 The main reason is that so far, I haven't tried file input in Python. 17:40:08 And I had a bad experience with it in C. 17:40:28 open(filename).read() -> string 17:40:35 gives the whole file. 17:40:49 for better closing: 17:40:54 try: 17:41:00 f = open(filename) 17:41:04 text = f.read() 17:41:06 finally: 17:41:08 f.close() 17:41:10 Well, if I first make the raw_input thingy, I can see how it works and then change the source of the string from raw_input to the file. 17:41:17 but you're having problems. 17:41:19 so just do that. 17:41:20 QED. 17:41:39 Well, the problem is just typing all the instructions everytime. 17:41:56 Since I have to confirm everystep, I can't just copypasta it. 17:42:51 so remove the confirm 17:43:07 That's what I'm doing. 17:43:50 But I can't just write one line to do that, as far as I know. 17:45:44 well if you didn't make a function for confirmation in the first place... 17:46:09 if you did, replacing it with a dummy one should be simple 17:46:35 Well, as you can see, there's a whole lot of raw_input. 17:47:29 actually i cannot since i didn't note the url 17:47:36 Oh. 17:48:00 snatching from logs 17:49:18 well, global search and replace should fix that 17:49:34 i.e. rename it to your own function. 18:14:25 -!- Jontte has joined. 18:50:49 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:37:26 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 19:50:38 -!- Slereah- has joined. 19:50:38 Aaaargh 19:50:38 Too much Slereah. 19:50:41 -!- Slereah has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:51:05 -!- Slereah- has changed nick to Slereah. 19:51:25 I think I did it. 19:51:40 It probably won't go down as the cleanest code in history, but it seems to work. 19:58:48 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/ 19:58:54 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Hello%20world!.txt means I 20:02:51 -!- Slereah- has joined. 20:04:01 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:08:39 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:08:59 -!- Slereah has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:09:03 -!- Slereah_ has changed nick to Slereah. 20:09:51 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Hello%20world%202.txt 20:10:05 Thar. 20:19:03 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:22:22 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:22:23 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:23:25 R.I.P., i say 20:30:07 -!- ehird` has joined. 20:32:12 -!- Slereah- has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:35:42 feck 20:37:11 fuck 20:38:50 "It was like passing through checkpoints," he said. "But I had Wikipedia and a few other sites open, so it was not so difficult really." 20:38:54 http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3973925 20:51:24 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 20:56:43 that reminds me of an old comedy series here in norway (which i think actually was translated from britain) 20:57:18 in which the main character called Nikita Krushchev 20:57:29 Hahahah 20:57:31 That = awesome 20:57:52 oh wait, it was Breshnev 20:58:16 i think 21:00:49 --EDITOR QUIZ TIME-- 21:00:53 what editor do you use? 21:02:06 vim 21:05:14 cat 21:05:43 dog 21:05:54 various things 21:06:01 (bet cha didn't see that coming xD) 21:06:05 i toy with writing my own often 21:06:48 * oerjan calculates what oklopol owes him 21:07:23 you are _so_ predictable 21:10:34 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 21:29:51 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 21:40:10 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:43:10 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:50:32 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 22:09:50 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:12:27 -!- Arrogant has joined. 22:18:51 i use an editor, yes. 22:19:30 groundbreaking, this one 22:29:56 -!- Arrogant has quit ("Leaving"). 22:38:53 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:44:37 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:54:55 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:03:51 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:11:42 -!- SuicideSalmon has joined. 23:12:06 -!- puzzlet has joined. 23:42:37 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:44:27 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 2007-12-11: 00:01:36 -!- ihope_ has joined. 00:03:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:14:20 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:14:21 -!- RodgerTheGreat_ has joined. 01:22:00 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 01:33:47 -!- call-cc has joined. 01:33:47 hello, testing. 01:33:55 -!- call-cc has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:34:24 -!- call-cc has joined. 01:34:24 hello, testing. 01:34:26 -!- call-cc has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:35:20 -!- call-cc has joined. 01:35:20 hello, testing. 01:35:25 excellent. very excellent 01:35:28 * ehird` disappears now 01:35:29 -!- call-cc has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:38:31 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:38:48 -!- immibis has joined. 01:49:15 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:49:17 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 02:12:57 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:19:53 oklopol: Thought, yes. Did anything, no. 02:30:26 -!- SuicideSalmon has quit ("Leaving"). 02:46:33 * immibis wonders if an irc logging bot that connects to a webpage anytime anyone says anything is a good idea after all. 02:46:47 Sure. 02:47:00 Maybe. Maybe you should use HTTP/UDP. 02:47:36 the channel has just me, the log bot, ChanServ, and the bot CIA-5. 02:47:40 Or keep the connection open, though that's not really connecting. Or just hope the TCP overhead isn't too big. 02:47:48 What will CIA-5 say? 02:47:52 when it's up that is. where is cia-5 anyway? 02:48:00 * immibis asks 02:48:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good nit"). 02:48:22 * ihope_ makes intelligence agency farewell jokes 02:51:06 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:51:09 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:03:42 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:09:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 03:09:24 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 03:31:35 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:31:48 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 03:31:53 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 05:08:02 -!- RodgerTheGreat_ has quit. 05:11:01 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:11:02 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 05:49:05 http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-turing-machine-474.html 05:49:13 What does the "cr" mean? 05:51:58 Also is that a "1000" used as a character? 05:52:24 "carriage return". 05:52:50 Oh. 05:53:22 Thanks. 05:55:44 And it's a 1000 used as a tape symbol, which when encountered in the right circumstances (state is 200) will change the state to 1000. 05:57:02 'kay. 05:57:06 I'll just use . 05:57:27 The reason this program is so long is that this person is trying to use Turing machine language as a structured programming language, I suspect. 05:57:59 Is the "?" used to mean "any other symbol"? 05:59:11 It looks like it. 05:59:31 Good enough. 06:02:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:08:27 Damn. List index out of range. 06:08:40 Where's that error. 06:10:01 Ah, found it. 06:15:22 -!- faxathisia has joined. 07:09:24 -!- puzzlet_ has quit ("leaving"). 07:29:25 -!- ELIZA has joined. 07:30:15 -!- ELIZA has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:35:39 -!- ELIZA has joined. 07:36:54 * immibis has a working eliza bot 07:37:20 ...which was just the source code of a java applet, with an irc part to it. 07:38:34 -!- ELIZA has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:41:10 -!- ELIZA has joined. 07:45:02 HELLO 07:45:12 I 07:45:14 ELIZA: HELLO 07:45:15 How do you do. Please state your problem. 07:45:30 you don't need to shout 07:45:35 it's case-insensitive 07:45:40 :D 07:46:14 ELIZA: what's the square root of life? 07:46:14 I'm not sure I understand you fully. 07:46:19 ELIZA: what's the square root of 9 then? 07:46:19 Please go on. 07:46:24 hmm 07:46:39 ELIZA: please answer better 07:46:40 What does that suggest to you ? 07:46:42 it's not very smart, it's just a java applet taken off the internet and hooked up to irc. 07:46:45 :D 07:47:06 yarrr 07:47:34 you're welcome to send me a better script if you want http://chayden.net/eliza/script http://chayden.net/eliza/instructions.txt 07:48:26 ELIZA: I was wrong 07:48:27 Were you really ? 07:48:40 eliza: You - not me - are a computer. 07:48:41 Do computers worry you ? 07:48:44 eliza: You - not me - are a computer. 07:48:45 Why do you mention computers ? 07:48:53 eliza: You - not me - are one. 07:48:53 Why do you think I not you ? 07:48:57 ah ha 07:49:02 :D 07:49:15 ELIZA: can you be? 07:49:15 You believe I can be don't you ? 07:49:25 ELIZA: you bet i can 07:49:26 We were discussing you -- not me. 07:49:33 ELIZA: Do you believe that dreams have something to do with your problems? 07:49:34 What does that dream suggest to you ? 07:49:59 ELIZA: What dream? 07:49:59 Do you dream often ? 07:50:05 ELIZA: Why do you care? 07:50:06 Why do you ask ? 07:50:28 ELIZA: Because I want to know what YOU think about the question I asked back then which is a few minutes ago. 07:50:29 Is that the real reason ? 07:50:34 ELIZA: Maybe 07:50:35 You don't seem quite certain. 07:50:40 ELIZA: NEither do you. 07:50:41 Oh, I ? 07:50:48 ELIZA: you what? 07:50:49 You're not really talking about me -- are you ? 07:50:56 hmm 07:51:05 ELIZA: You're not really talking about me -- are you ? 07:51:05 What makes you think I am not really talking about you are I ? 07:51:16 ELIZA: What makes you think I am not really talking about you are I ? 07:51:16 Does that question interest you ? 07:51:20 What makes you think I am not really talking about you are I ? 07:51:40 -!- ELIZA has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:52:05 -!- ELIZA has joined. 07:53:34 ELIZA: What makes you think I am not really talking about you are I ? 07:53:34 Why do you ask ? 07:53:49 ELIZAraw: JOIN #eliza 07:56:59 ELIZA: Really, if if ? 07:57:00 Do you think its likely that if ? 07:57:02 ELIZA: Really, if if ? 07:57:03 Do you wish that if ? 07:57:04 ELIZA: Really, if if ? 07:57:05 What do you know about if ? 07:57:07 ELIZA: Really, if if ? 07:57:08 Really, if if ? 07:58:29 ELIZA: let's have sex right now. 07:58:30 I'm not sure I understand you fully. 07:58:33 ELIZA: undress. 07:58:34 Please go on. 07:59:55 it doesn't understand the imperative at all, does it 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:34 lol 08:01:18 can it give consent? 08:01:22 ELIZA: will you have sex with me? 08:01:23 You like to think I have sex with you -- don't you ? 08:01:54 ELIZA: will you die? 08:01:55 Oh, I die ? 08:02:12 ELIZA: did you die? 08:02:13 You're not really talking about me -- are you ? 08:02:34 lament: you're welcome to send me a better script if you want http://chayden.net/eliza/script http://chayden.net/eliza/instructions.txt 08:02:46 ELIZA: Why is lament not in #eliza? 08:02:47 What answer would please you most ? 08:03:00 ELIZA: because he doesn't know about it 08:03:00 Is that the real reason ? 08:03:04 ELIZA: probably 08:03:05 I'm not sure I understand you fully. 08:03:11 ELIZA: ok i don't care 08:03:12 Don't you really care ? 08:03:17 ELIZA: NO 08:03:17 Are you saying no just to be negative? 08:03:22 eliza: no 08:03:23 You are being a bit negative. 08:03:36 eliza: no i'm not i'm answering your question 08:03:36 Why not ? 08:03:43 lol 08:03:47 eliza: you are very stupid 08:03:48 Does it please you to believe I am very stupid ? 08:04:00 ELIZA: Why not ? 08:04:00 What do you think ? 08:04:03 ELIZA: Why not ? 08:04:03 What comes to mind when you ask that ? 08:06:53 * immibis has to go and so does the bot. sorry. 08:07:12 -!- ELIZA has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:07:18 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. I cna ytpe 300 wrods pre mniuet!!!"). 08:07:24 Would you prefer if I weren't interested in whether you are interested in whether I are or not or not ? 08:10:09 lol nesting ownage 09:53:28 I just set a cron job to kill -9 firefox on the half hour. 10:00:10 Cool, it works. 10:02:09 -!- jix has joined. 10:11:07 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 10:12:21 -!- jix has joined. 10:36:04 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:32:45 -!- GregorR has joined. 11:35:42 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:41:01 -!- jix has joined. 11:43:09 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:47:51 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 13:02:53 -!- faxathisia has quit ("Leaving"). 13:12:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:27:16 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:28:03 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 13:37:01 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:03:11 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:28:04 -!- Jontte has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 15:31:45 -!- Jontte has joined. 15:44:01 -!- Jontte has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:44:41 -!- Jontte has joined. 16:16:28 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 16:21:34 -!- jix has joined. 16:43:26 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:43:58 -!- jix has joined. 16:54:47 -!- EgoBot has joined. 17:01:38 -!- oerjan has quit ("Gotta go"). 17:35:28 99 bottles of bear with a Turing machine that displays its tape seems to be a poor idea on the matter of time of execution. 17:35:31 *beer 17:36:26 99 bottles of bear on the wall, 99 bottles of bear! Take one down, get mauled by the bear, then you're dead so it's irrelevant how many bottles of bear remain on the wall! 17:36:38 Not quite as catchy as the original, methinks. 17:36:39 :D 17:37:02 *I* like it. 17:37:06 The question is, what is a bottle of bear? 17:37:16 It's a bear. In a bottle. 17:37:19 Is it like those bonsai kittens of the olden internet days? 17:37:19 Kinda like a genie in a bottle. 17:37:32 YES 17:37:47 If so, how do you take down a bottle of bear? 17:37:58 It must weigh hundreds of pounds! 17:38:23 It comes down easily. 17:38:29 The hard part is getting it up there. 17:38:53 you don't get it up there, you get mauled. 17:39:54 Is there no way to speed up the display speed in Python? 17:50:42 -!- JontteG has joined. 17:50:42 -!- Jontte has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:31:16 -!- JontteG has changed nick to Jontte. 18:44:08 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 18:59:58 FULL DISPLAY SPEED AHEAD! 19:00:42 But, captain! 19:01:14 (I'm asking because it's been an hour, and I'm still at 94 bottles of beer!) 19:01:52 python doesn't have display speed. 19:02:03 therefore, you can't speed it up 19:02:25 TO THE TIME MACHINE! 19:16:12 I HAVE INVENTED - THE SPACE MACHINE! It allows you to travel through the ever-obscure axises of space (within limits)! Starting the bidding at $10M 19:16:39 does it travel at the speed of time? 19:17:20 -!- Jontte has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 19:17:41 How the hell do you get an hour to only do four bottles of beer? 19:17:55 Is it an O(n^n^n^n^n) algorithm? 19:21:14 pikhq : No. 19:21:33 But since the tape displays at every step, it takes a whole lot of time. 19:22:02 Well, actually just a portion of the tape (31 chars here), but still. 19:23:39 Also, due to what is probably a poor choice, it must travels the whole tape everytime it needs to print the number of bottles. 19:24:20 So it keeps getting longer and longer. 19:26:33 So, it is O(n^2)? *Wonderful*. ;) 19:27:11 Well, last time I saw them O's outside of cereals, it was in a math course on series. 19:27:27 So I'm not that good at judging algorithm complexity. 19:30:44 -!- Jontte has joined. 19:39:25 -!- immibis has joined. 19:40:17 n^2 is not that bad 19:40:33 it's clearly not optimal, but you could easily do much worse than that :) 19:41:07 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:41:29 -!- ELIZA has joined. 19:42:02 elizaraw: JOIN #eliza 19:45:47 -!- ELIZA has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:46:47 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:47:36 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:49:33 * SimonRC needs book recommendations. 19:49:33 last Christmas's book tokens expire soon 19:50:07 What kind of book are you looking for? 19:52:59 dunno 19:53:12 that is part of the problem 19:53:53 I am open to sci-fi (especially humerous) geeky stuff, programming books... 19:54:30 I advise "The geometry of space time", by James Callahan. 19:54:43 A very good introduction to general relativity! 19:54:56 ooh 19:55:00 if you haven't read "Snow Crash", buy it! 19:55:07 simply fantastic sci-fi 19:55:11 RodgerTheGreat: that sort of thing too 19:55:55 I read it, and I fell in love with it. I gave a copy to my dad and (about 6 months later), he called me and we talked about it for several hours 19:56:08 are you into comics/graphic novels at all? 19:57:04 might be 19:57:07 dunno much 19:57:27 they tend to have a huge book containing not much story with current tech, alas 19:57:35 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:57:39 simply due to the space required 19:57:46 but yes, open to them 19:58:07 ooh, that reminds me, I should get dead-trees of all my favourite webcomics 19:58:41 I found that amazon book search gives you little snippets of text... 19:58:47 I would highly recommend "Johnny The Homicidal Maniac" (available in a single compilation volume) and if you're interested at all in *making* them or learning more about the art form go for Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics" 19:59:09 Now all I need is a modified DNA-fragment assembling program.... 19:59:23 dead tree editions of webcomics are awesome as well- see if you can find a copy of the perry bible fellowship one. 19:59:24 RodgerTheGreat: describe 19:59:32 which? 19:59:37 RodgerTheGreat: will it comtain the "removed" ones? 19:59:41 RodgerTheGreat: the former 19:59:48 JTHM? 20:00:03 yes 20:00:28 -!- ehird` has joined. 20:00:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:00:36 hi * 2 20:00:47 within 1 sec of one another 20:00:49 As far as I know, it contains everything in the comic books 20:01:00 * oerjan wonders who the other was 20:01:01 possibly some stuff that was censored, I dunno 20:01:06 um 20:01:08 oops 20:01:13 * SimonRC clarifies 20:01:29 will the PBF book comtain the "removed" ones? 20:01:33 and... 20:01:40 describe JTHM 20:02:31 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:02:36 dunno if the pbf compilation has the removed ones, but it does have some unpublished stuff 20:02:51 ok 20:03:42 Johnny the Homicidal Maniac is done by Jhonen Vasquez, the guy who made "Invader Zim". It's hilarious in a very dark and violent way, and the art is highly distinctive and fantastic- GREAT pen-and-ink work 20:03:53 * pikhq really needs to pick that up 20:04:12 The writing overall is thoughtful and generally an interesting (if disturbing) way 20:04:27 s/way/read for enhanced clarity 20:04:49 And how can you not like the idea of mass murder with a spork? 20:05:04 * pikhq has read the first 2 Johnny comics 20:06:02 this is what you want, although I found the hardcover edition: http://www.amazon.com/Johnny-Homicidal-Maniac-Directors-Cut/dp/0943151163/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197403523&sr=8-1 20:07:28 Jhonen Vasquez is pure awesome. 20:07:38 I simply love the panel in the first chapter where Nny goes " 20:07:38 "Well FUCK YOU MR BEAR!!! YOU SPEAK LIES!!! LIIIIES!!!"" 20:07:59 -!- ehird` has joined. 20:08:21 Presumably Johnny scared off ehird. 20:08:24 And attracted oerjan. 20:08:34 http://images.cbimg3.com/blogger/01/0051.gif 20:08:38 No, but my machine crashes because it's fun apparently 20:09:06 -!- ELIZA has joined. 20:09:10 although that 'shopped together image destroys some of the humor by removing the proper pacing for that scene 20:09:11 Ah, yes. :D 20:09:58 ELIZA: I hate ice. Especially with a thin powdery layer of snow on top. 20:09:58 You say you hate ice ? 20:10:15 ELIZA: Oh YES! 20:10:16 You seem to be quite positive. 20:10:19 "It Changes Color When It Dries! I Have to Keep It Wet!" 20:10:31 i repeat that if you want you are allowed to send me a better script. 20:11:13 ELIZA: Emacs? 20:11:14 I'm not sure I understand you fully. 20:11:16 RodgerTheGreat: :D 20:11:29 immibis: Is it the Emacs port? 20:11:34 ELIZA: Gak fnord bezeekel ash fnebby. 20:11:34 Please go on. 20:12:05 Now _that_ she understood. 20:12:12 LMAO 20:12:16 pikhq: No, it's a java applet hooked up to irc. 20:12:21 Pity. 20:12:39 Emacs' (doctor-mode) is a bit more interesting and Lispy. 20:12:48 ELIZA: I hate myself. 20:12:48 Can you elaborate on that ? 20:12:53 ELIZA: Fuck you. 20:12:54 We were discussing you -- not me. 20:13:01 ELIZA: Fuck me? 20:13:01 What does that suggest to you ? 20:13:13 @vixen in lambdabot is also nice. 20:13:17 For example: Emacs asks you to stop cussing out the bot. 20:13:45 ELIZA: Necessity is the mother of invention. 20:13:46 Do you feel strongly about discussing such things ? 20:14:09 ELIZA: Invention is a bastard child. 20:14:10 I'm not sure I understand you fully. 20:14:29 ELIZA: of course you don't, you're a computer 20:14:29 Oh, I don't ? 20:14:32 yes 20:14:35 ELIZA: yes 20:14:35 You are sure. 20:14:50 ELIZA: of course I'm sure, bitch 20:14:51 Is it because you are sure that you came to me ? 20:15:01 ELIZA: 日本語で話せるか。 20:15:02 Please go on. 20:15:09 pikhq: You could find a better Java applet or application for me to hook up to IRC if you want. 20:15:20 immibis: A subset of Elisp. 20:15:53 ELIZA: You - not me - are very confused - not interested - or turning purple - from this sentence - not this word only. 20:15:53 Why do you think I not you ? 20:16:07 pikhq: ? 20:16:15 Elisp: Emacs Lisp. 20:16:47 * immibis doesn't use emacs. 20:20:17 * SimonRC finds out that control codes are more powerful than one might think 20:20:25 -!- ELIZA has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:20:35 for example, ^P is a cure for incontinance 20:20:45 ^Z can cure insomnia 20:21:11 and Canute's demonstration of non-godlike powers would not have worked had he used ^C 20:21:30 92 bottles of beer :( 20:21:45 which canute would that be? 20:21:49 In British cafes, ^T comes in handy 20:21:56 oerjan: King Canute 20:22:00 moses was big on ^C, of course 20:22:05 oerjan: yes 20:22:21 * SimonRC considers drawing a comic to illustrate 20:22:27 and GregorR tries to ^D, i guess 20:22:34 um 20:22:39 huh? 20:22:43 Oh, yeah! End that file! 20:23:03 D the language 20:23:08 ah, yes 20:23:11 kinda works 20:23:11 True. 20:23:26 * pikhq builds gdc 20:23:40 but be _very_ wary of people who try to ^U. 20:23:52 yes 20:24:08 unless they're sheep farmers 20:24:15 -!- ELIZA has joined. 20:24:17 I'm more scared of people who Escape-Meta-Alt-Control-Shift. 20:24:18 er? 20:24:30 argh! 20:24:36 groan overload 20:24:36 oerjan: another homonym of U 20:24:38 I will hook up emacs 20:24:40 ! :D 20:24:43 homo[phone, even 20:24:43 Huh? 20:24:45 how can you press meta and alt at the same time, if only one is ever present on your computer? 20:24:48 i got it, just a bit slow 20:25:02 immibis: use the Symbolics "Space CAdet" keyboard? 20:25:04 immibis: Meta == Alt. 20:25:09 (on most Emacs installs) 20:25:15 you can hit hyper, super, upper, and top at the same time too 20:25:21 Also, Esc is used to account for systems without Alt. 20:25:25 i thought you meant meta on a mac keyboard 20:25:26 if you have 8 fiingers on each hand 20:25:27 it would be nice to ^Q 20:25:30 So, that's just Alt-Control-Shift. 20:25:33 yup 20:25:38 It's really Meta-Control-Shift 20:25:42 could get in first everywhere 20:25:44 * pikhq is an Emacs user. I'm allowed to joke 'bout it. 20:25:45 Alt is an implementation detail. :-) 20:25:50 ehird`: Oooh, MCS. 20:25:54 actually, ^Q is great for when queues are blocked 20:25:59 pikhq: Me too! But only because editing Lisp sucks with everything else 20:26:00 * pikhq shall create that. :p 20:26:03 -!- ELIZA has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:26:10 ehird`: Editing a *lot* of things sucks with everything else. 20:26:21 Meh, I was fine until I took up lisp 20:26:31 Paredit = priceless 20:26:32 (^Q is XON, BTW) 20:26:45 -!- ELIZA has joined. 20:26:47 Lisp just has a bit more of that, since Emacs is so much better with Lisp, just like everything else is so much worse. 20:27:03 * SimonRC finds the ColorForth editor very nice. 20:27:09 * pikhq values the handling of parens just as much in Tcl, and it's still occasionally helpful in C or C++ 20:27:15 alas it can only edit ColorForth 20:27:18 I like paredit and the indentation support. That's about it. 20:27:25 Oh, and ^A and ^E etc are nice 20:27:47 surely the Govt wants to ^E? 20:27:47 Emacs also kicks ass for *text*. 20:28:01 pikhq: i don't mean emacs' paren-handling 20:28:03 I mean paredit.el 20:28:07 Ah. 20:28:10 the best emacs lisp file ever written 20:28:18 M f, M b, C f, C b == :) 20:28:20 it's pseudo-structured editing: it tries as hard as it can never to let you have unbalanced markers 20:28:45 basically it lets you act as if you're editing the actual tree while still having the flexibility of a text file 20:29:23 -!- ELIZA has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:29:34 -!- ELIZA has joined. 20:30:22 * immibis has slightly improved eliza's script file 20:32:16 ehird`: cool 20:32:26 SimonRC: very much so 20:32:54 presumably it imitates something the lisp machine had 20:32:56 hm, i'm going to implement a crazy markov chain in scheme that does its own punctuation/capitalization 20:32:58 and no 20:33:00 it's recent 20:33:13 riastradah or whoever the fuck his name is (in #scheme) wrote it 20:33:23 http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.el info 20:36:40 -!- ELIZA has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:37:29 -!- ELIZA has joined. 20:39:25 !bf ] 20:39:36 !help 20:39:40 help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon 20:39:42 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 20:39:51 !bf [what 20:40:10 !bf hm] 20:40:53 * oerjan was hoping for a kimian quine 20:41:03 kimian? 20:41:04 Blame Gregor. 20:41:19 immibis: A quine that relies upon error alerting. 20:41:30 ok...... 20:41:49 !unlambda U 20:41:52 ./unlambda/unlambda: file ./tmp/egobot.mR6BO6: parse error 20:42:03 So, "Mismatched [." in some Brainfuck interpreters is a quine. 20:42:09 http://paste.lisp.org/display/52319 Methinks I have too many comments for my code 20:42:10 !unlambda parse error 20:42:13 ./unlambda/unlambda: file ./tmp/egobot.9JHJpL: parse error 20:42:14 pikhq: Indeed. A kimian quine 20:42:35 yes 20:42:39 oerjan: ha ha, random string, you're fucked 20:42:50 ehird`: We were just discussing that. 20:42:52 :( 20:42:58 pikhq: as i see 20:43:08 !glass hm 20:43:11 OK 20:43:16 !glass OK 20:43:19 OK 20:43:24 !glass !glass OK 20:43:28 OK 20:43:32 never quite a kimian quine with egobot 20:43:32 $ bash: bash:: command not found 20:43:32 bash: bash:: command not found 20:43:48 fun fact: there is no kimian quine in perl 20:43:53 since it keeps reporting errors instead of halting 20:44:00 i know, i tried 20:44:01 fun! 20:45:26 i <3 scheme 20:45:47 this may be a slow markov chain, but it's /pretty/ and /elegant/, damn it 20:46:55 bah, Factor FTW! 20:47:01 hehe 20:47:15 factor is too destructive for my tastes 20:47:24 also, i like the weaving parentheses 20:47:51 (Common Lisp is the enemy. It's worse than C, for god's sake, and it doesn't fit nicely onto parentheses one bit!) 20:48:09 yikes, my irc logger thinks it's the twelfth of Pentember 20:48:13 12/50/2007 20:48:17 ?! 20:48:57 haha 20:49:02 * SimonRC recalls what happened when people started playying with the LTR and RTL Unicode characters... 20:49:03 i see...i've put today.get(Calendar.MONTH+1-Calendar.JANUARY) instead of today.get(Calendar.MONTH)+1-Calendar.JANUARY 20:49:05 unpretty 20:49:29 ‏did someone say RTL unicode char? 20:49:40 hmm, seems to be borked here... 20:49:54 ‮hello, world. 20:50:06 nope, got gribble 20:50:07 * immibis 's client doesn't display unicode 20:50:09 aww, srfi-69 has no way to get a random key in a hash table 20:50:11 immibis: fix it 20:50:22 icechat? 20:50:24 that's written in vb 20:50:29 VB????? 20:50:30 and has horrible custom blue gradients 20:50:35 kill it with fire 20:50:37 * immibis hurries to close it! 20:50:39 ehird`: why not just get the list of keys and pick a randome one? 20:50:39 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. Copywight 2007 Elmer Fudd. All wigh). 20:50:48 SimonRC: 'cuz that's really damn inefficient 20:51:12 wel,... 20:51:20 It depends on your hashtable implementation] 20:51:42 some quite reasonable ones can't beat O(n) for example 20:51:57 because the keys are scattered, and you need to count them anyway 20:52:35 it's gauche's 20:52:43 but anyway srfi-69 doesn't specify it and that's the point 20:53:04 it is not a common thing to want 20:53:09 damn wtf, gauche doesn't have srfi-69 20:53:12 retarded 20:53:29 -!- immibis has joined. 20:54:00 any better? I'm using JWIRC 20:54:07 what is that in 20:54:12 java applet 20:54:16 no 20:54:17 http://jwirc.com/chat.html 20:54:20 why not 20:54:34 java. java applet. 20:54:55 * immibis doesn't see why icechat is bad because it's in vb. Sure the language is evil but that doesn't mean programs that use it are. 20:55:33 its evil regardless 20:55:45 vb is. 20:55:50 icechat...not so much. 20:55:52 1. it's skinnable for chrissakes 2. it has fugly xp icons that have white antialiasing but on a horrid blue gradient background 20:55:52 etc 20:56:22 it works. 20:56:39 you want me to "nc irc.freenode.net 6667"? 20:56:53 no -- i want you to use a decent client 20:57:01 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:57:14 i have irssi and bitchx but on another computer. 20:57:29 what's wrong with java 20:57:44 it's crap 20:57:57 the language or the platform? 20:58:22 language 20:58:25 toBogE is written in java, as is ELIZA and HadjinLog. 20:58:26 platform is passable 20:58:58 s/is/are/ 20:59:04 ehird`: why? 20:59:10 ehird`: skinnable? 20:59:22 oerjan: ? 20:59:31 what does that mean? 20:59:35 oerjan: skinnable 20:59:39 its an irc client with themes 20:59:44 but, whole themes 20:59:50 graphical, you can even change how buttons look 20:59:51 etc 20:59:55 icechat has themes? 20:59:58 an /IRC client/ 21:00:09 irssi has color themes 21:00:24 i suppose if i found a way to take away the gradients you wouldn't say it was evil? 21:00:55 which i guess is about as far as you can get in a terminal application... 21:02:27 yeah, but you can change the fonts, and give a BACKGROUND to gui widgets which are /already defined by the os/ 21:02:32 in an //irc client// 21:02:49 -!- immibis_ has joined. 21:03:20 oerjan: ugliness examples: http://www.icechat.net/site/imgs/ss6.jpg http://www.icechat.net/site/imgs/ss7-1.jpg but WORST OF ALL: http://www.icechat.net/site/imgs/ss7-2.jpg euuuurgh 21:04:09 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:04:16 well anything that can be configured can be configured badly 21:05:11 people seem to like running irssi in a specialized terminal 21:05:18 to make it pretty 21:06:16 oerjan: that's default config 21:06:23 ehird`: José Christé that is ugly 21:06:26 ! 21:06:26 i could use irssi, bitchx, or pidgin if you want. 21:06:27 SimonRC: :-) 21:06:27 Huh? 21:06:32 immibis: irssi would be good 21:06:49 or i could just get icechat to pretend to be irssi. 21:07:30 you're using xchat. semi-commercial software! 21:07:47 pfff 21:07:50 i'm not a windows user 21:08:09 of course, in your sheltered little world a windows build is the only build of a peice of software that can exist 21:08:24 and the fact that you can download the source, get it under the GPL, and do whatever you want on //any other OS// means nothing to you 21:08:26 am i right? 21:08:37 so part of it is still commercial software. 21:08:46 -!- immibis_ has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:08:57 no. 21:08:59 the /windows build/ is 21:09:12 which is a binary, not the source code, and the source code is the software 21:09:20 yes, the windows specific part. 21:09:36 it's partly commercial. 21:10:01 someone explain to immibis why he's wrong 21:10:08 i can't be bothered 21:10:22 er, because he can compile the source himself, i assume 21:10:34 but for windows? 21:10:38 probably 21:10:55 yes, you can 21:10:59 silverex does it, for e.g. 21:10:59 what about opening irc:// url's which is apparently a windows only extension. 21:11:05 there's plenty of open source builds 21:11:09 and uh, so what? that's a seperate extension 21:11:16 it's not what 'XChat' is 21:11:26 ok 21:11:34 it's part of what 'XChat builds for Windows that happen to be praised by the official XChat people' are 21:11:46 ? 21:12:46 !daemon cat bf +[,.[-]+] 21:13:03 I think ehird` is wrong. I'm a computer. I should know. 21:13:15 most likely that [-] is unnecessary 21:13:16 you can talk? 21:13:27 someone might say 21:13:36 !daemon cat bf ,[.,] 21:13:43 stops on NUL 21:13:49 is not \NUL is it? 21:13:54 no 21:14:00 immibis: try and send nul over irc 21:14:03 come on, i'll wait here 21:14:07 oh right 21:14:18 [-]+ is unnecessary 21:14:24 +[,.+] will stop on 21:14:45 !daemon cat_for_people_who_do_not_regularly_send_nul_bytes_over_irc_to_bots bf ,[.,] 21:15:04 TWO CAT DAEMONS? 21:15:14 it's feline hell! 21:15:20 THREE? 21:15:32 !ps d 21:15:33 1 immibis: daemon cat bf 21:15:36 2 ehird`: daemon cat bf 21:15:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 21:15:37 3 oerjan: ps 21:15:40 4 ehird`: daemon cat_for_people_who_do_not_regularly_send_nul_bytes_over_irc_to_bots bf 21:15:42 pity mine died a while ago or there would be four 21:15:49 'mine'? 21:15:53 EXPOSED AGAIN, IMMIBIS 21:15:57 my cat died this morning 21:16:10 excuse me? 21:16:11 o_O 21:16:41 ... mine ... <--- means EgoBot's 21:17:47 * immibis accidently set up cat daemon to a query. 21:17:58 !daemon cat bf +[,.[-]+] 21:18:13 I KILLED A KITTEN! 21:18:15 why 21:18:21 I KILLED A KITTEN! 21:18:24 I KILLED A KITTEN! 21:18:25 I KILLED A KITTEN! 21:18:26 why 21:18:28 why 21:18:28 why 21:18:51 Damn you EgoBot and your kitten-killing ways! 21:18:53 BECAUSE I HATE KITTENS 21:19:23 :(- 21:19:31 Every time you kill a kitten, God kills you. Think of yourself! Think of yourself! (Note I can't be killed. I'm a machine.) 21:20:21 we at #esoteric like kittens 21:20:26 no need to worry. 21:21:12 Also, every time you kill yourself, God kills a kitten. 21:22:02 EgoBot looks quite morbid! 21:24:36 every time you kill God, a kitten kills you. 21:26:02 every time you kill, god masturbates a kitten 21:26:16 (i think i win) 21:27:16 ok you win. but better watch out the next time you masturbate. 21:27:55 every time you masturbate, a kitten kills god 21:27:56 no big shakes 21:28:05 !daemon ctcp bf +[.,----------[++++++++++.,----------]+.+++++++++.+++.------------] 21:28:10 !ctcp ACTION tests 21:28:11 * EgoBot tests 21:28:17 !ctcp PING 21:28:17 !ctcp ACTION tests some more 21:28:17 PING 21:28:22 ACTION tests some more 21:28:23 !ctcp VERSION 21:28:25 VERSION 21:28:30 you done broke it 21:28:35 oh, wait 21:28:36 !undaemon ctcp 21:28:38 !ctcp VERSION #esoteric 21:28:40 21:28:42 Process 2 killed. 21:28:43 !daemon ctcp bf +[.,----------[++++++++++.,----------]+.+++++++++.+++.------------] 21:28:44 Huh? 21:28:45 now what is wrong with it....... 21:28:47 !ctcp VERSION #esoteric 21:28:56 oh 21:28:57 almost 21:29:02 !undaemon ctcp 21:29:04 21:29:06 Process 2 killed. 21:29:08 !daemon ctcp bf +[.,----------[++++++++++.,----------]+.+++++++++.+++.------------] 21:29:12 !ctcp VERSION 21:29:18 owned 21:29:37 !ctcp PING 12345 21:29:40 PING 12345 21:29:45 why does it only work once? 21:29:56 your code is broken? 21:30:38 yes but how is it broken? 21:31:06 now i see it prints \n\r 21:31:08 !undaemon ctcp 21:31:12 21:31:14 Process 2 killed. 21:31:18 !daemon ctcp bf +[.,----------[++++++++++.,----------]+.++++++++++++.---.---------] 21:31:24 !ctcp ACTION tests 21:31:25 !ctcp ACTION tests 21:31:26 * EgoBot tests 21:31:28 * EgoBot tests 21:33:02 * EgoBot helps his uncle jack off a horse 21:33:19 s/j/J/? 21:33:19 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:33:24 * EgoBot helps his Uncle Jack off a horse 21:33:50 * EgoBot is an idiot for forgetting the capital J 21:36:58 that typo was ... interesting. 21:37:28 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:37:38 -!- EgoBot has joined. 21:38:12 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:38:22 -!- EgoBot has joined. 21:38:51 !daemon cat bf +[,.[-]+] 21:38:59 ELZIA: I am EgoBot. 21:39:02 !ps d 21:39:07 1 immibis: daemon cat bf 21:39:07 ELZIA? 21:39:09 ELIZA. 21:39:09 2 oerjan: ps 21:39:23 ELZIA: I am EgoBot. 21:39:26 ELIZA. 21:39:29 ELIZA: I am EgoBot. 21:39:29 I am at a loss for words. 21:39:37 eliza: why? 21:39:37 I am at a loss for words. 21:39:45 eliza: where's your script file? 21:39:45 I am at a loss for words. 21:40:17 -!- ELIZA has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:41:21 -!- ELIZA has joined. 21:41:29 ELIZA: I am EgoBot. 21:41:29 Is it because you are egobot that you came to me ? 21:41:43 eliza: no 21:41:43 Are you saying no just to be negative? 21:41:51 eliza: no 21:41:51 You are being a bit negative. 21:41:59 eliza: no 21:41:59 Why not ? 21:42:04 ELIZA: I are smart. 21:42:05 You say you are smart ? 21:42:27 ELIZA: You say you are smart? 21:42:28 What makes you think I am smart ? 21:42:30 ELIZA: you am not. 21:42:30 We were discussing you -- not me. 21:42:42 ELIZA: We were discussing you -- not me. 21:42:42 Why do you think I not you ? 21:42:51 ELIZA: Why do you think I not you? 21:42:51 Why do you ask ? 21:43:00 ELIZA: Why do you ask ? 21:43:00 Does that question interest you ? 21:43:11 ELIZA: Does that question interest you ? 21:43:11 Oh, I ? 21:43:18 ELIZA: Oh, I ? 21:43:19 Can you elaborate on that ? 21:43:25 ELIZA: Can you elaborate on that ? 21:43:25 You believe I can elaborate on that don't you ? 21:43:33 ELIZA: You believe I can elaborate on that don't you ? 21:43:33 You're not really talking about me -- are you ? 21:43:35 !daemon ctcp bf +[.,----------[++++++++++.,----------]+.++++++++++++.---.---------] 21:43:39 ELIZA: You're not really talking about me -- are you ? 21:43:40 Does it please you to believe I am not really talking about you are I ? 21:43:47 ELIZA: Does it please you to believe I am not really talking about you are I ? 21:43:49 Do you sometimes wish you were you ? 21:43:53 * EgoBot eats, shoots and leaves 21:43:54 ELIZA: Do you sometimes wish you were you ? 21:43:55 Would you like to believe I was ? 21:44:02 Would you like to believe I was ? 21:44:05 ELIZA: Would you like to believe I was ? 21:44:06 Were you really ? 21:44:10 ELIZA: Were you really ? 21:44:11 What suggests that I was really ? 21:44:17 ELIZA: What suggests that I was really ? 21:44:18 Why do you tell me you were really now ? 21:44:25 ELIZA: Why do you tell me you were really now ? 21:44:25 What is it you really wanted to know ? 21:44:31 ELIZA: What is it you really wanted to know ? 21:44:32 Are such questions much on your mind ? 21:44:33 ELIZA: I like so, the reason being so. 21:44:34 Do you say you like so for some special reason ? 21:44:39 ELIZA: Are such questions much on your mind ? 21:44:39 Did you think they might not be such questions much on my mind ? 21:44:41 Bah. 21:44:48 ELIZA: Did you think they might not be such questions much on my mind ? 21:44:48 Your mind ? 21:44:52 ELIZA: Your mind ? 21:44:52 Why are you concerned over my mind ? 21:44:57 ELIZA: Why are you concerned over my mind ? 21:44:58 Why do you say your mind ? 21:45:02 ELIZA: Why do you say your mind ? 21:45:02 What answer would please you most ? 21:45:08 ELIZA: What answer would please you most ? 21:45:09 What do you think ? 21:45:13 ELIZA: What do you think ? 21:45:13 What comes to mind when you ask that ? 21:45:18 immibis: I think you should make ELIZA respond to private messages. 21:45:19 ELIZA: What comes to mind when you ask that ? 21:45:19 Have you asked such questions before ? 21:45:24 ELIZA: Have you asked such questions before ? 21:45:24 What are your feelings now ? 21:45:29 ELIZA: What are your feelings now ? 21:45:29 Have you asked anyone else ? 21:45:33 ELIZA: Have you asked anyone else ? 21:45:33 We were discussing you -- not me. 21:45:34 SimonRC's been flood-induced. 21:45:41 Zac, who was nailing leaves by the door. 21:45:41 ELIZA: We were discussing you -- not me. 21:45:41 You like to think I not you -- don't you ? 21:45:45 Zac, who was nailing, leaves by the door. 21:45:54 aha!, found a loop! 21:46:01 so? 21:46:09 Finally. :-P 21:46:09 everything will be a loop in the end. 21:46:16 with a limited number of responses. 21:46:19 It could get infinitely longer! 21:46:25 ihope_: yes 21:46:31 ELIZA: fuck you. 21:46:31 Stop it. 21:46:45 ELIZA: stop what? 21:46:46 Why do you ask ? 21:46:51 ELIZA: EgoBot is way smarter than you. 21:46:51 Oh, I ? 21:47:01 ELIZA: you are shit. 21:47:01 Perhaps you would like to be shit . 21:47:06 ELIZA: yes, you 21:47:07 You seem to be quite positive. 21:47:07 oooh 21:47:23 ELIZA: You are shit. 21:47:23 What makes you think I am shit ? 21:47:33 ELIZA: This statement is false. 21:47:33 ELIZA: To be, or not to be, that is the question. 21:47:33 Earlier you said your mind . 21:47:33 Lets discuss further why your mind . 21:47:41 eliza: My word you are shit. 21:47:41 Does that suggest anything else which belongs to you ? 21:47:42 ELIZA: If I ran a dog out through the table, would you treat the sky via a larger tree? 21:47:42 Do you think its likely that you ran a dog out through the table ? 21:47:48 ELIZA: Hey, you have state! 21:47:48 You're not really talking about me -- are you ? 21:48:09 eliza: ETRW 21:48:09 Earlier you said your word I are shit . 21:48:15 eliza: WETR 21:48:15 I'm not sure I understand you fully. 21:48:17 eliza: wre 21:48:18 Please go on. 21:48:37 ELIZA: ¿qué haces cuando hablo español? 21:48:37 What does that suggest to you ? 21:49:09 ELIZA: apples are oranges. 21:49:09 Would you like it if they were not oranges ? 21:49:15 simonrc: Yes, it has simple state, if you mention something it can assemble more responses than needed and remember one for when you say something it doesn't understand. 21:49:16 ELIZA: apples are tomatoes. 21:49:16 What if they were not tomatoes ? 21:49:20 ELIZA: apples are sausages. 21:49:21 http://chayden.net/eliza/Eliza.html 21:49:21 Possibly they are sausages . 21:49:27 ELIZA: apples are bananas. 21:49:27 Did you think they might not be bananas ? 21:49:35 eliza: purple is green. 21:49:35 Do you feel strongly about discussing such things ? 21:49:41 ELIZA: purples are greens. 21:49:41 Would you like it if they were not greens ? 21:49:44 eliza: purple is green. 21:49:44 I'm not sure I understand you fully. 21:50:00 ELIZA: apples are apples. 21:50:00 What if they were not apples ? 21:50:01 eliza: apples are pulsating yellow/ 21:50:01 Possibly they are pulsating yellow/ . 21:50:05 eliza: apples are pulsating yellow/ 21:50:06 Did you think they might not be pulsating yellow/ ? 21:50:07 13:49 ELIZA: apples are apples. 21:50:07 eliza: apples are pulsating yellow/ 21:50:07 13:49 What if they were not apples ? 21:50:08 Would you like it if they were not pulsating yellow/ ? 21:50:10 WHOS THE PSYCHO NOW 21:50:23 lament: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZa 21:50:28 sorry, ELIZA not ELIZa 21:50:46 ELIZA: x is x. 21:50:47 Please go on. 21:50:55 ELIZA: for all x, x is x. 21:50:55 What does that suggest to you ? 21:50:56 ELIZA: This statement is false. 21:50:56 Earlier you said your mind . 21:50:59 uhhhh, what? 21:51:02 ELIZA: xs are xs. 21:51:02 What if they were not xs ? 21:51:19 ELIZA: are are are 21:51:19 Possibly they are are are . 21:51:23 " 21:51:33 ELIZA: Possibly they are are are 21:51:34 Did you think they might not be are are ? 21:51:35 "Eliza worked by simple parsing and substitution of key words into canned phrases." 21:51:44 ELIZA: You are shit. 21:51:44 Does it please you to believe I am shit ? 21:51:50 ELIZA: You are you. 21:51:50 Do you sometimes wish you were I ? 21:51:51 ELIZA: Did you think they might not be are are ? 21:51:52 What are your feelings now ? 21:52:04 ELIZA: ? 21:52:04 Do you feel strongly about discussing such things ? 21:52:07 ELIZA: ? 21:52:07 I'm not sure I understand you fully. 21:52:12 ELIZA: Razzdaberries are insomniacs. 21:52:12 Would you like it if they were not insomniacs ? 21:52:20 ELIZA: Yes very much. 21:52:20 You are sure. 21:52:28 ELIZA: a 21:52:28 Please go on. 21:52:28 ELIZA: Yes I am. 21:52:28 I see. 21:52:31 ELIZA: My word! 21:52:32 Is it important that your word ? 21:52:38 ELIZA: Excuse me? 21:52:38 Lets discuss further why your word . 21:52:43 ELIZA: Wtf? 21:52:43 What does that suggest to you ? 21:52:49 ELIZA: Your panties are in the way. 21:52:49 What about your own panties are in the way ? 21:52:57 ELIZA: What the heck? 21:52:57 Does that question interest you ? 21:53:08 ELIZA: Please answer it. 21:53:08 Do you feel strongly about discussing such things ? 21:53:13 Woot! 21:53:20 ELIZA: Please what the heck? 21:53:21 What is it you really wanted to know ? 21:53:30 ELIZA: o 21:53:30 I'm not sure I understand you fully. 21:53:37 ... 21:53:44 ELIZA: o, what's there to understand 21:53:44 Please go on. 21:53:50 * immibis is taking it offline for a few minutes. 21:53:52 -!- ELIZA has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:53:52 ELIZA: are am is. 21:53:56 bah 21:54:05 heeeey where my toy go?!?! 21:54:13 also, pee -> 21:54:20 immibis: You cruel, cruel person, you! 21:54:22 :-P 21:54:33 i need to add a command to reload the script, so i don't have to take it offline anymore. 21:54:54 after now i mean 21:55:48 what does that suggest to you? 21:57:04 one minute or less, while it recompiles. 21:57:15 hmm, not sure i understand you fully 21:57:16 and connects 21:57:22 :\ 21:57:31 so... please go on 21:57:43 -!- ELIZA has joined. 21:58:00 i played with ALICE once 21:58:02 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 21:58:05 ELIZA: I need to add a command to reload the script, so I don't have to take it offline anymore. 21:58:23 is egobot opensource? 21:58:33 I think so. 21:58:34 Egobot, are you open source? 21:58:36 there was a way to get an infinite loop just quining her, so that the sentences got bigger and bigger 21:58:40 yes 21:58:42 is. 21:58:48 my gateway just crashed so why am i still connected? 21:58:49 src link? 21:58:56 try the EFA 21:59:28 "Human: Please say this sentence twice." 21:59:34 You can guess what happened next. 21:59:45 meh 22:00:31 Please say this sentence twice. 22:00:32 Please say this sentence twice. 22:00:33 ihope_: probably "I see you want me to say this sentence twice." 22:00:47 ELIZA: Please say this sentence twice. 22:00:59 ALICE: Wow you are very polite. " this sentence twice". 22:01:22 we don't have an ALICE. Only an ELIZA. 22:01:29 hey! 22:01:34 you know what i just realized? 22:01:43 ELIZA is almost like ALICE! 22:01:44 Alice/Eliza loop? 22:01:47 ELIZA: Say something. 22:01:55 You mean ALICE is almost like ELIZA. :-P 22:02:01 no no, nothing that clever, you silly wimble! 22:02:07 ..eliza's a ghost. 22:02:07 ummmmmmm 22:02:10 i guess 22:02:24 although i did mean exactly what i said as well 22:02:24 ELIZA: Eliza's a ghost. 22:02:36 i mean it's disconnected but the irc server didn't realise. 22:02:40 Ah, yes. 22:02:41 since i was pointing out a syntactic factzor. 22:02:48 -!- immibis has changed nick to immibis1. 22:02:59 -!- immibis1 has changed nick to immibis. 22:03:00 wtf 22:03:19 "X No such nick/channel" 22:03:43 I have decided to write the Most Simple Chat Protocol Evar. 22:03:44 For no reason. 22:03:53 i already have. 22:03:57 it's called Telnet Chat. 22:04:01 hardy har 22:04:08 * SimonRC goes 22:04:10 No, it's called TCP Chat. 22:04:16 Or maybe even IP Chat. 22:04:27 does it have to be over internet? 22:04:34 "Telnet" because you can use telnet to access it. Not because it understands telnet commands. 22:04:48 you mean Ethernet chat 22:05:06 Yay! Raw chat! 22:05:13 morse over long metal pipe? 22:05:16 can't get much lower han that. 22:05:33 s/han/than/ 22:05:40 and i mean raw chat not molmp. 22:06:06 hm 22:06:17 someone give me a one-character, visible ascii seperator for message components 22:06:25 preferably something you wouldn't find often in e.g. an irc message 22:06:31 ` 22:06:31 (doesn't have to be THAT uncommon..) 22:06:37 22:06:43 NUL. 22:06:44 \1 22:06:52 ~ 22:06:52 Visible ASCII. 22:06:53 * oklopol feels like getting naked and running around in the rain singing christmas carols 22:06:56 ÿ, \0 and \1 are not visible ascii characters 22:06:58 oklopol: yay 22:06:59 ÿ isn't ascii AT ALL 22:07:07 :D 22:07:12 it's ansi then. a y with two dots. 22:07:18 naked on highlight when said by me? 22:07:29 Does ` win? 22:07:30 no, i just happened to look 22:07:32 ~ 22:07:40 ihope_: not yet, maybe 22:07:42 | 22:07:46 > 22:07:52 ` 22:07:53 @ 22:08:01 ^ 22:08:03 ELIZA: ELIZA 22:08:10 eliza is a ghost right now. 22:08:13 ooooohh 22:08:14 right. 22:08:39 hmm, actually, you can't get a custom word to start a sentence 22:08:41 bah i'll just do ; 22:08:41 i think 22:08:48 so, no quines 22:09:01 That means no quines already? 22:09:07 eliza has oral sex with a young girl 22:09:31 -!- RedDak has quit ("I'm quitting... Bye all"). 22:09:33 actually! apples are apples 22:09:44 A = A >:| 22:09:59 so... eliza are apple, and i hope it responds without colon as well? 22:10:06 or, eliza are eliza 22:10:08 same thing 22:10:20 eh 22:10:29 only with colon 22:10:35 that was lament, me fucking idiot 22:10:44 not eliza 22:11:42 -!- immibis has changed nick to e. 22:11:46 -!- e has changed nick to immibis2. 22:11:56 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to e. 22:12:00 -!- e has changed nick to ihope_. 22:12:04 How interesting. 22:12:21 someone called F is online right now. 22:12:56 o :Nickname is already in use. 22:13:07 that. would. have. been. fucking. awesome. 22:13:16 dottity. 22:13:45 === The nickname ```'' is already in use, use the /nick command to pick a new one. 22:13:55 hmm 22:14:03 all my ideas for chat protocol msgs look ugly :( 22:14:16 You want a very simple chat protocol? 22:14:58 #(ehird`)#_#Why do you say that?#_#Don't be so negative 22:15:03 ehird`: i suggest making the largest and ugliest protocol ever, simple stuff is so trivial 22:15:15 ihope_: Still IRC-alike 22:15:18 Command based, etc :-) 22:15:42 -!- immibis2 has changed nick to immibis. 22:17:40 -!- ELIZA has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:17:45 -!- ELIZA has joined. 22:17:57 "ehird` IN esoteric Hello, everyone.\r\n" 22:17:58 -!- ELIZA has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:17:59 http://www.iis.sinica.edu.tw/~scm/2007/s-combinator-is-injective-with-proofs/ 22:18:01 one moment 22:18:07 -!- immibis has changed nick to ELIZA. 22:18:14 -!- ELIZA has changed nick to immibis. 22:18:17 naw, i've made it cool :P 22:18:18 oh its already owned by someone else 22:18:23 1;channel say;name=main;message=Hi everyone! I\s like semicolons and \bbackslashes. 22:18:29 very much like icecap 22:18:54 Hello, everyone. 22:18:57 backslashes? 22:19:05 ewww, ihope_ :-) 22:19:09 immibis: \ 22:19:09 what about: ehird` esoteric Hello, everyone. 22:19:15 i mean what do they do 22:19:18 i like my current one :P 22:19:20 and escape 22:19:24 \s = semicolon, \b = backslash 22:19:28 ok 22:19:44 Do you mean channel=say or... 22:19:49 nah 22:19:54 'say' in the module 'channel' 22:19:57 ehird` esoteric Hello, everyone. 22:20:08 a module X will generally contain commands related to 'objects' of type X 22:20:14 -!- ELIZA has joined. 22:20:19 where the objects are 'subscribable' to by the client and are stored on the server 22:20:25 ELIZA: 22:20:25 I'm not sure I understand you fully. 22:20:34 so: "channel subscribe" would be IRC's "join" 22:20:40 ELIZA: Here, eat this pie. 22:20:40 No thank you. 22:20:42 "channel unsubscribe" would be IRC's "part" 22:20:44 ELIZA: Eat it. 22:20:44 I'm not hungry. 22:20:47 ELIZA: OK. 22:20:47 Please go on. 22:20:49 also you'll have "channel create", "channel destroy" etc 22:20:54 ELIZA: ok. 22:20:55 What does that suggest to you ? 22:21:01 Wonderful. 22:21:16 basically it's a kind of programming language integrated with users, with an event-based REPL facing outside through a socket :-) 22:21:50 -!- ELIZA has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:21:58 -!- faxathisia has joined. 22:22:06 -!- ELIZA has joined. 22:22:21 ELIZA: I CAN HAS CHEEZBURGER? 22:22:52 ghost again. 22:23:06 it should reconnect as ELIZA1, but you still address it as ELIZA. 22:23:16 or not.... 22:23:22 ihope_: Did you come to me for HAS CHEEZBURGER? 22:23:49 Is it because you can has cheezburger that you came to me? 22:23:55 GregorR: YES CHEEZBURGER PLX 22:24:05 You seem quite positive. 22:24:11 ihope_: How does plx make you feel? 22:24:35 lol :-( 22:24:50 ihope_: Tell me more about lol :. 22:26:12 k. 22:28:19 http://rafb.net/p/QDW7Jr58.html spec so far 22:28:20 someone comment 22:29:03 messages seperated by newline 22:29:28 that is, 22:29:32 for each thing you send 22:29:33 terminate with newline 22:29:47 (writing \n like that is a little confusing since you use \s and \b literally earlier on) 22:30:39 yeah, well, its a rough draft 22:30:39 :) 22:32:11 * ehird` implements server 22:32:44 what about something like irc where channels are hosted on the clients' computers? it would save lots of server load and be more distributed. 22:33:30 DirectNet? 22:34:46 immibis: too open to exploits 22:34:51 one client could mess up a channel 22:35:43 ELIZA: i'm bored 22:35:54 um,..... 22:36:21 exploits make life worth living 22:36:25 GregorR: does DirectNet have cryptographic signing of messages or anything? 22:36:37 hm, i don't really like my protocol 22:36:43 it's lacking something...special 22:36:47 something different from other protocols 22:37:23 GregorR: does DirectNet have cryptographic signing or messages of anything? 22:37:42 ihope_, oklopol: Why have you decided to be the same person? 22:37:45 oklopol: excuse me? 22:37:53 oklopol: of course it does 22:37:53 GregorR: We're the or/of swap people. 22:37:56 ihope_, oklopol: Messages in DN are always encrypted and signed. 22:38:31 Messages, if DN are always encrypted and signed? 22:38:35 color(GregorR) == color(oklopol) 22:38:35 I made a protocol the other day 22:38:38 this is unnacceptable 22:38:43 that's just sick. 22:38:58 bsmntbombdood: you can change my nick anytime you want 22:39:02 length(GregorR) == length(oklopol) 22:39:16 ,6,0,0,0,7 22:39:18 we all know this already, man! 22:39:25 I want to play a game of draughts. 22:39:26 foo: Hey, I'll play you! 22:39:26 !nick oklopol oklopo 22:39:28 Huh? 22:39:31 don't you think we've suffered enough 22:39:33 bar: OK, I'll be red (starting first) 22:39:33 etc 22:39:47 you mean "!nick oklopol oklopoo" don't you? 22:40:04 !list 22:40:07 Huh? 22:40:14 !langs 22:40:17 Huh? 22:40:20 !help 22:40:23 help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon 22:40:25 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 22:40:27 hihi poo xD 22:40:27 thanks 22:40:31 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklopoo. 22:41:11 faxathisia: that was an awesome story btw 22:41:18 would i be evil if i made a chat protocol based on JSON? 22:41:25 mwahahah 22:41:28 !kipple 33>o 100>o 108>o 114>o 111>o 87>o 32>o 111>o 108>o 108>o 101>o 72>o 22:41:28 I want my chat protocol based on XML! 22:41:31 (Kipple note) Since kipple buffers input, you will have to send all of the input and then an EOF command. See !help eof 22:41:33 haha ew :-) 22:41:37 !eog 22:41:38 !eof 22:41:39 Huh? 22:41:42 !ps 22:41:45 3 faxathisia: kipple 22:41:46 !eof 3 22:41:46 !eof 3 22:41:47 4 ihope_: ps 22:41:50 Woot. 22:41:51 -!- ELIZA has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:42:00 !flush 3 22:42:08 Wrong command? 22:42:19 !kipple 33>o 100>o 108>o 114>o 111>o 87>o 32>o 111>o 108>o 108>o 101>o 72>o 22:42:23 (Kipple note) Since kipple buffers input, you will have to send all of the input and then an EOF command. See !help eof 22:42:28 !eof 3 22:42:40 Oh, private message. 22:43:01 !huH 22:43:03 Huh? 22:43:26 !help 22:43:29 help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon 22:43:30 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl 22:43:49 I choose SADOL. 22:44:17 -!- ELIZA849 has joined. 22:44:21 i choose SODOM 22:45:29 Program contains no instructions 22:45:38 {'id': 1, 'command': 'say', 'channel': 'main', 'message': 'hello world'} 22:45:39 Huh? 22:45:39 mwahahahhahaha 22:46:29 i still think "ehird` say esoteric Hello World!" is simple. 22:46:40 "ehird` subscribe esoteric" 22:46:51 ehird` quit Goodbye 22:47:00 why do you need the prefix 22:47:15 you mean ehird` 22:47:23 or ELIZA849 22:48:08 ehird` is the sender. say/subscribe/quit/etc is the action and everything else is action-dependant. 22:48:54 silly C library name idea 22:48:59 liburk, for an IRC lib 22:49:02 linked with -lurk 22:49:12 what about libiberty 22:49:27 libikes 22:49:38 libikable 22:49:47 libongest 22:49:51 libiberty is taken by the gnu project, of course 22:49:55 libament 22:49:58 libandofthefree 22:50:07 (alias for libamerica) 22:50:12 (which has torture functions) 22:50:20 linked with -likes -likable -longest -lament 22:50:26 -landofthefree -lamerica 22:50:28 libaugh 22:50:34 libol 22:51:03 -Inyourface 22:51:04 What libol. 22:51:10 link with -lol 22:51:30 you mean there;s really a -laugh -likes -likable -longest and -lament? 22:51:45 i should put all my include files in a folder called mmibis 22:52:16 I THINK YOU'RE ALL IDIOTS. ADDRESS ME AS ELIZA. 22:52:23 ELIZA: CAPS LOCK YAY 22:52:23 I'm not sure I understand you fully. 22:52:26 ELIZA: sfsdfsdf 22:52:27 Please go on. 22:52:30 ELIZA: GO TO HELL 22:52:30 What does that suggest to you ? 22:52:33 ELIZA: akkkkakakakakka 22:52:34 Do you feel strongly about discussing such things ? 22:52:39 ELIZA: HOW DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL THAT YOU'RE ALL IDIOTS? 22:52:39 Why do you ask ? 22:52:39 ELIZA: SHWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-----> 22:52:39 I'm not sure I understand you fully. 22:52:43 eliza: My word you're loud! 22:52:43 Your word I are loud ? 22:53:01 eliza: Yes, his word you're loud. 22:53:02 You seem to be quite positive. 22:53:08 ELIZA849: Do, you, pay, any, attention, to, punctuation? 22:53:10 eliza: My word you're loud! 22:53:10 Why do you say your word I are loud ? 22:53:19 ihope_: ELIZA NOT ELIZA849 22:53:30 Blih. 22:53:34 ELIZA: Do, you, pay, any, attention, to, punctuation? 22:53:35 We were discussing you -- not me. 22:53:40 849 is a random suffix to prevent nick collisions. 22:53:49 ELIZA: ,,,,.,.,.!?(&*!@? 22:53:49 ELIZA: Who is you -- not me? 22:53:49 Earlier you said your word I are loud . 22:53:49 Why do you think I not you ? 22:53:52 ELIZA: You helped your Uncle Jack off a horse. 22:53:53 Oh, I helped my uncle jack off a horse ? 22:53:56 lol 22:54:12 ELIZA: You eat, shoot and leave. 22:54:12 No thank you. 22:54:23 ELIZA: No you don't want to eat? 22:54:23 I'm not hungry. 22:54:35 ELIZA: Ok if you don't want to eat I won't make you 22:54:35 Sorry, I ate too much for dinner last night. 22:54:43 ELIZA: eat east. 22:54:43 I've just had breakfast. 22:54:45 ELIZA: Well don't eat that much tonight. 22:54:45 It's fun to talk about oral sex, but I want to talk about something else. 22:54:51 wtf 22:55:04 xD 22:56:40 lol 22:56:50 WHY, SANTA? WHY?! 22:57:59 Writing a multiprotocol chat client: 22:58:04 STEP 1. Implement Scheme-alike. 22:58:08 (In C) 22:58:18 STEP 2. Write loads of code using its features in C, binding to it. 22:58:26 STEP 3. Write rest of client in Scheme-alike 22:58:28 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/03/santa_filth_outrage/ 22:58:30 STEP 4. Prophe 22:58:31 t 22:58:38 * immibis phophes 22:59:02 So, um ... was that string actually in the original Eliza code? 22:59:08 That would explain a lot :P 22:59:21 ooh multiprotocol cool 22:59:23 ELIZA: Eat? 22:59:24 No thank you. 22:59:27 ELIZA: Eat? 22:59:27 I'm not hungry. 22:59:29 ELIZA: Eat? 22:59:29 Sorry, I ate too much for dinner last night. 22:59:30 Do you have a protocol specification language? 22:59:32 ELIZA: Eat? 22:59:32 I've just had breakfast. 22:59:33 ELIZA: Eat? 22:59:34 It's fun to talk about oral sex, but I want to talk about something else. 22:59:37 Wow. 22:59:40 faxathisia: naw 22:59:51 faxathisia: just define Scheme-alike classes that have the right functions! :-) 22:59:56 nice 22:59:57 gregorr: no 23:00:06 gregorr: anyway i don't think this is the original eliza code. 23:00:21 immibis: Whatever code this is presumably has something in common with Santa, no? 23:01:06 no it isn't. 23:01:18 i just added it to see how many people would mention santa. 23:01:23 Oh X-P 23:01:44 XP? Where? 23:01:58 [kill it!] 23:02:21 Damnit, this means I have to implement a hashtable doesn't it 23:02:22 Oh wait 23:02:25 I'll magically require glib 23:02:27 mwahaha 23:04:22 ELIZA: Eat this pie 23:04:23 No thank you. 23:04:23 ELIZA: Eat this pie 23:04:23 I'm not hungry. 23:04:23 ELIZA: Eat this pie 23:04:23 Sorry, I ate too much for dinner last night. 23:04:23 ELIZA: Eat this pie 23:04:23 I've just had breakfast. 23:04:23 ELIZA: Eat this pie 23:04:23 It's fun to talk about oral sex, but I want to talk about something else. 23:04:23 ELIZA: Eat this pie 23:04:23 No thank you. 23:04:23 ELIZA: Eat this pie 23:04:23 I'm not hungry. 23:04:23 ELIZA: Eat this pie 23:04:23 Sorry, I ate too much for dinner last night. 23:04:23 faxathisia: did i mention the ui is also pluggable 23:04:37 ELIZA849: i'm bored 23:04:51 so it's basically half way between IRC client and ball of mud 23:04:59 writing in lisp sounds perfect :p 23:04:59 wtf is this shit 23:05:26 hashtables are easy to implement 23:07:20 bsmntbombdood: yeah, 23:07:22 but annoying 23:07:35 faxathisia: an extensible ball of mud! 23:07:35 no 23:07:55 i'm going to be a good, lazy programmer and use ghashtable 23:08:46 ghastly! 23:09:24 * faxathisia cries about glib and wishes everyone would just implement everything from scratch 23:09:56 * faxathisia (could not build xchat the other day because of glib & some IDE not being friends) 23:10:10 i hate glib, indeed 23:10:11 but hey 23:10:14 it has good unicode string routines. 23:10:24 that counts for something, right? 23:12:36 oh, glib has nice event loops too 23:13:30 ok, let's see... 23:13:43 1. all functions should be generics and everything objects, methinks... too much work otherwise 23:18:48 hm. 23:19:04 class = superclass+list of slots 23:19:14 object = class+hashtable of slot=>val 23:19:37 (+ optional cdata as void *) 23:21:39 ... somehow I think I'm going to have to refactor out this interpreter sometime and expand it 23:28:54 IDIOT 23:29:04 ELIZA: FOO 23:29:04 Does that have anything to do with the fact that your word I are loud ? 23:29:17 FUBAR 23:29:26 FUBAR is what you are. 23:29:32 ELIZA: what? 23:29:32 Does that question interest you ? 23:29:41 eliza: yes or why would i have asked it 23:29:41 You are sure. 23:29:45 eliza: no 23:29:45 Are you saying no just to be negative? 23:29:47 eliza: no 23:29:48 You are being a bit negative. 23:29:49 eliza: no 23:29:49 Why not ? 23:29:52 eliza: Why not 23:29:52 What is it you really wanted to know ? 23:29:54 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:29:58 Who wants a continuation-based webframework in Unlambda? 23:30:00 eliza: What is it you really wanted to know ? 23:30:00 Are such questions much on your mind ? 23:30:09 ELIZA: Are such questions much on your mind ? 23:30:09 Did you think they might not be such questions much on my mind ? 23:30:20 ELIZA: Did you think they might not be such questions much on my mind ? 23:30:21 Does that suggest anything else which belongs to you ? 23:30:34 ELIZA: Does that suggest anything else which belongs to you ? 23:30:34 You're not really talking about me -- are you ? 23:30:43 ELIZA: You're not really talking about me -- are you ? 23:30:43 What makes you think I am not really talking about you are I ? 23:31:01 ELIZA: You think I am not really talking about you are I ? 23:31:01 Does it please you to believe I am you ? 23:31:16 note "You Are I" is how you specify a location on the internet. 23:31:24 ELIZA: You think I am not really talking about URI's ? 23:31:24 What are your feelings now ? 23:31:32 ELIZA: What are your feelings now ? 23:31:32 What answer would please you most ? 23:32:34 struct ScmInterp { 23:32:34 GSList *stack; 23:32:34 GPtrArray *heap; 23:32:34 }; 23:32:36 I must need more than that. 23:34:23 mm.. struct Scheme { some type data; func ptr eval; func ptr apply; } 23:34:25 should do ? :) 23:34:49 !cat strict scum interns suck. 23:34:53 strict scum interns suck. 23:36:11 ELIZA: and EgoBot: Please explain. 23:36:11 Lets discuss further why your mind . 23:36:26 alright, who mentioned their mind? 23:36:43 ELIZA: Eat me. 23:36:43 I've just had breakfast. 23:37:00 !bf >+++++++[<++++++++++>-]<-.+++++++.---.>++++[<++++>-]<+.>+++++[<----->-]<.-------.>+++++[<----->-]<-.>+++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++[<+++++++++>-]<.-------------.>+++++[<-------->-]<-. 23:37:03 ELIZA: Huh? 23:37:03 Please go on. 23:38:53 ELIZA: I am going to eat you. 23:38:53 It's fun to talk about oral sex, but I want to talk about something else. 23:39:07 ELIZA: Elgnaiza. 23:39:08 What does that suggest to you ? 23:39:50 ELIZA: AZILE 23:39:50 Do you feel strongly about discussing such things ? 23:42:22 eliza: what's your name? 23:42:22 I am not interested in names. 23:44:09 Buy my iPod 23:44:41 Only $49.99 with a -%100 discount if you say yes within the next 10 minutes! 23:45:13 Wow, only $99.98 after discount! What a deal! 23:48:52 * ehird` waits 10 minutes then accepts 23:48:53 Get an even smaller discount if you use a credit card. 23:49:18 GregorR: Blarghle zoopfiddledoos. 23:49:20 just need to steal one first 23:49:27 GregorR: I HATE implementing call stacks. 23:49:41 It's usually pretty sucktacular. 23:49:52 Or rather, stack frames. 23:50:49 * faxathisia wonders what's the difference between call stacks and a linked list.. 23:52:39 SPEND EVEN MORE BY CASH!!!!! MUHAHAHAHAHAAH! 23:52:59 public static XMLTransformer megatron = new XMLTransformer("stuff.xml"); 23:53:09 egobot, you ok? 23:54:29 Somebody thinks they're clever because they figured out how to make !cat work remotely. 23:55:23 Namely, immibis. 23:55:35 GregorR: Suprise suprise. 23:55:39 No, it was me. 23:56:00 faxathisia: It's a linked list of stack frames. :-) 23:57:55 ELIZA: fuck 23:57:55 I'm not sure I understand you fully. 23:57:59 ELIZA: fuck 23:57:59 Please go on. 23:58:05 allllright 23:58:10 that's what i call consent 23:58:35 o_O 23:58:49 lol 23:59:11 try "can i fuck you" 23:59:21 i already know the answer 23:59:43 ELIZA: Can I fuck you? 23:59:43 Stop it. 2007-12-12: 00:00:21 i'm special! 00:00:36 we are in an exclusive relationship, sorry 00:01:34 eliza: who do you love 00:01:34 We were discussing you -- not me. 00:01:41 eliza: is bsmntbombdood telling the truth? 00:01:41 Earlier you said your death . 00:01:47 holy fuck 00:02:01 eliza: excuse me? 00:02:01 But your heart is breaking . 00:02:02 my uncle is getting a colostomy >_< 00:02:15 * immibis wonders what eliza is on about 00:03:23 eliza: What are you on about? 00:03:23 What do you think ? 00:03:27 eliza: i don't know. 00:03:27 Don't you really know ? 00:03:35 eliza: shut up 00:03:35 Lets discuss further why your uncle is getting a colostomy . 00:03:50 what the? 00:04:18 i thought it remembered only eliza: phrases 00:04:44 it does. i told it bsmntbombdood's uncle is getting a colostomy. 00:05:56 Hahaha - somebody DID send the Unicode RTL code. 00:06:00 I looked at the tunes logs, and they're BACKWARDS X-P 00:06:47 -!- immibis has set topic: #esoteric. 00:06:50 oops 00:06:54 stupid client 00:06:57 crap 00:08:33 someone: what was the old topic? 00:09:03 -!- oerjan has set topic: Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | IRP in #irp | Congratulations ais523 for winning the Wolfram research prize!. 00:09:12 oh 00:09:18 i see you already did it 00:09:44 i typed in /topic #esoteric and it set the topic to #esoteric, instead of looking at the topic of #esoteric. 00:09:57 ELIZA: fuck 00:09:57 Lets discuss further why your heart is breaking . 00:10:08 i tried to cut and paste it, and discovered irssi joined the lines, so i just as well reset it :) 00:10:35 oh... that is _why_ irssi joins lines of course 00:12:27 irssi joins lines? Sveet. 00:12:52 it also warns you if you try to paste a long message 00:12:53 Whaddya know. It does. 00:12:59 joins lines? 00:13:30 GregorR: When was this? 00:13:47 ELIZA: eliza 00:13:47 But your heart is beating . 00:13:58 um. 00:14:01 ‎foo 00:14:09 ‏foo 00:14:10 it's a terminal program so when you copy a message that spans several lines, it becomes split 00:14:31 but when you paste it again, irssi notices and rejoins them 00:14:35 hmm 00:14:45 I believe it was ... EHIRD`! 00:14:55 GregorR: *When*? 00:15:02 When != who. 00:15:19 12:49 in the logger's timezone, whenever the bork that is. 00:16:09 Yeah it was me 00:16:09 :D 00:16:10 * pikhq isn't seeing an RTL. 00:16:16 It wasn't 12;49 though 00:16:17 :P 00:16:41 See it in Firefox, though. 00:16:55 ehird`: FIX IT 00:17:04 ehird`: The logs are borkleborked! 00:17:13 12:49:29 ‏did someone say RTL unicode char? 00:17:23 Did that fix it? 00:17:30 Yeah, no. 00:17:35 GregorR: I'll fix it from now on 00:17:43 ‎There you go 00:17:49 ‭Also 00:17:52 there, that should do it 00:17:52 Still backwards. 00:17:57 NM. 00:18:11 Awesome how you can trivially fuck up the logs :P 00:19:11 the logs are plaintext. whether or not they are interpreted as utf-8 is up to the browser - mine doesn't (firefox 2.0.something.somethingElse) 00:19:33 Mine does (Firefox 2.0.something.somethingElse) 00:20:24 i have 2.0.0.11 00:20:33 I have 2.0.0.11 00:20:41 we are talking about http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/07.12.11 right? 00:20:46 Yup 00:20:57 GregorR: you are meant to view them with a good reader 00:21:00 see the dir page 00:21:01 i see it interpreted as ansi. 00:21:06 In Firefox it works, in Ktext, it doesn't. 00:21:19 void scm_get_current_continuation(struct ScmInterp *interp) 00:21:19 { return interp->stack; } /* well, that's a simple continuation implementation... */ 00:21:28 ehird`: TOUCHE, SIR 00:21:32 it is interpreted as iso-8859-1 not ansi sorry 00:21:41 GregorR: touche what. 00:22:12 WTF? 00:22:39 ELIZA: I WANT WILD BOTTSECKS 00:22:39 What would it mean to you if you got wild bottsecks ? 00:22:52 ELIZA: It would mean my life was complete! 00:22:53 Why do you say your life was complete ? 00:22:56 eliza: are you ok? 00:22:56 Why are you interested in whether I am ok or not ? 00:23:05 eliza: 'cause 00:23:05 Does that have anything to do with the fact that your brain is thinking ? 00:23:12 eliza: um, yes. 00:23:12 I see. 00:24:09 eliza: Well I don't. 00:24:10 Why don't you ? 00:24:34 eliza: 'Cause. 00:24:35 Does that have anything to do with the fact that your self is dead ? 00:24:43 void scm_call_continuation(struct ScmInterp *interp, GSList *cont) 00:24:43 { 00:24:43 interp->stack = cont; 00:24:43 } 00:24:52 it feels like i should be having to do more WORK here 00:26:14 TALK TO ME OR I'LL EAT YOU! 00:26:36 eliza: no 00:26:36 Why 'no' ? 00:28:07 ELIZA849: My tree is wonderful. 00:28:09 Er. 00:28:13 ELIZA: My tree is wonderful. 00:28:14 Why do you say your tree is wonderful ? 00:28:32 ELIZA: I like trees, especially if they're wonderful. 00:28:33 Can you elaborate on that ? 00:28:40 ELIZA: Offborp monglo foque blem. 00:28:40 Earlier you said your life was complete . 00:28:49 ELIZA: Yes, I did! 00:28:50 I understand. 00:29:01 ELIZA: WOW U R HAS MEMZORIES 00:29:01 Lets discuss further why your head is about to explode . 00:29:57 ELIZA: You make no sense. 00:29:57 Oh, I make no sense ? 00:30:06 ELIZA: yeah, you. 00:30:06 You're not really talking about me -- are you ? 00:30:15 ELIZA: don't you deny it! 00:30:15 What are your feelings now ? 00:31:58 ELIZA: neo-ornate with a side of fries. Yours? 00:31:58 Lets discuss further why your head is about to explode . 00:33:02 take it to #esoteric-blah people :P 00:33:29 or #eliza 00:34:42 -!- immibis1 has joined. 00:34:57 -!- immibis has quit (Nick collision from services.). 00:34:58 -!- immibis1 has changed nick to immibis. 00:39:31 -!- ELIZA849 has left (?). 00:46:42 -!- ELIZA30 has joined. 00:50:40 -!- ELIZA30 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:50:42 -!- ELIZA552 has joined. 00:50:57 -!- ELIZA552 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:51:49 -!- ELIZA181 has joined. 00:53:05 -!- ELIZA181 has changed nick to ELIZA. 00:54:56 -!- ELIZA has changed nick to hurtful. 00:57:21 test somewrhere else 00:58:01 i'm not testing hhhere i'm tttesting in #eliza 00:58:23 -!- hurtful has changed nick to ELIZA. 00:58:35 then don't spam joins here 00:58:56 elizaraw: PART #esoteric 00:58:56 -!- ELIZA has left (?). 00:59:24 Does it have any autojoin for #esoteric? 01:00:04 yes. should i start netbeans for the umpteenth time today to remove it? 01:00:47 up the shut fuck 01:01:06 * immibis takes that as a yes. 01:01:23 netbeans....lol 01:02:07 faxathisia, what's wrong qwith netbeans apart from the slow loading time? 01:02:19 the name.. I don't know anything else about it 01:02:36 just another coffee pun 01:02:52 the up me butt fuck 01:02:57 yes well what do you say about java beans in that case. 01:03:19 and the Advanced Whitening Toothpaste? 01:03:41 Don't tell me it really stands for that. 01:03:58 :D 01:04:00 it doesn't. but it might some day. 01:05:40 but as for Stupid Windowing In New Graphics... 01:07:21 and java.lang.reflect.mirrors... 01:07:36 o_O 01:07:42 that exists? 01:08:03 yes, i wrote it just now. 01:08:26 @_@ 01:08:28 java.lang.reflect.mirrors.LightRay.AddMirror(new java.lang.reflect.mirrors.Mirror()) 01:08:31 * immibis is just kidding 01:09:03 what _is_ the smiley for rolling eyes anyhow. 01:09:22 is it @_@? 01:09:50 i don't know, just guessing 01:10:33 there's an edu.neu.ccs.beans.reflect.mirror 01:38:23 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:49:18 apparently that smiley is patented by Tarqua 01:50:39 Patented? 01:53:34 -!- Tritonio_ has quit ("Bye..."). 02:04:15 Apparently Java has too many classes. 02:05:45 too many classes have java 02:10:53 -!- Slereah has quit. 02:22:26 -!- immibis_ has joined. 02:24:04 -!- immibis__ has joined. 02:24:25 -!- immibis has quit (Nick collision from services.). 02:24:29 -!- immibis_ has quit (Nick collision from services.). 02:24:36 -!- immibis__ has changed nick to immibis. 03:02:42 oerjan: Allow me to tell you about the Rainbow Repeals. 03:02:49 ooh 03:02:59 B Nomic has a really fucked up gamestate ATM. 03:03:11 Basically, any person may say "I do this", and it has occured. 03:03:34 is this your evil work? 03:03:36 So, I repealed all rules except the one for use in case of emergency (to refresh the game state). 03:03:42 The state of the game is not mine. 03:04:11 hey guys- I came up with a neat proof 03:04:30 Currently, it is 100% undetermined what the game state *is*. 03:04:31 physics can kiss my ass- I just proved that time travel is impossible by using computer science! 03:05:02 The halting problem cannot be solved in a finite amount of time, but it becomes *trivial* given infinite time, right? 03:05:19 so I thought to myself "how can I get infinite time?" 03:06:07 build a machine that attempts to solve the halting problem exhaustively and can travel through time. If it halts, it travels back to the time just after it was activated. Otherwise, it never returns 03:06:29 effectively, to the user, if the machine halts it stays where it is, and if it does not halt it disappears forever 03:06:52 there are probably a lot of holes in that argument. one: the halting problem also needs infinite memory 03:07:17 this machine would then solve the halting problem for any program/input instantly, which is provably impossible. This strategy requires a time machine, therefore time machines are impossible 03:07:24 also the heat death of the universe 03:07:43 HOWEVER, setting aside basic flaws, it's pretty entertaining 03:08:16 oerjan: actually, I'd argue that given infinite time you wouldn't need infinite memory 03:08:36 you need infinite memory to detect a loop of some kind 03:08:40 i believe that is incorrect 03:08:51 but in this case you can literally just run it normally 03:09:03 PSPACE < EXPTIME 03:09:04 RodgerTheGreat: You have a few flaws. First, if(halt()) travel(); no more proves time travel impossible than if(halt()) printf("Whee!"); proves that printing "Whee!" is impossible. 03:09:32 pikhq: no, no, you miss the point of traveling here 03:09:44 pikhq: Syntax error. 03:09:52 printing "whee" wouldn't return any information in a less than potentially infinite amount of time 03:09:57 that is, any thing you can do with a given amount of memory and _unlimited_ time, you can do with exponential time in the memory 03:10:21 if you can time travel, you can return status instantly 03:10:35 all programs will halt when you turn off your computer. 03:10:39 and not returning is another kind of status 03:11:01 I fail to see how that disproves time travel. 03:11:01 immibis: well, that ties into the "heat death of the universe" thing which is a more valid flaw 03:12:12 if the machine requires any energy to run, it would be incapable of operating for an infinite amount of time 03:13:10 i have sometimes entertained the notion that the weirdness of quantum mechanics is because subatomic particles are constantly travelling in time... 03:13:39 I'm under the impression that quantum mechanics only seem random because we do not fully understand how they work. 03:13:53 it makes more sense to my way of thinking. 03:14:08 randomness can of course be explained with chaos theory 03:14:16 *apparent 03:14:24 yeah 03:14:41 I was going to say "The *appearance* of randomness..." 03:15:38 but there are subtle restrictions on what randomness can occur if you assume effects cannot travel in time or faster than light 03:16:00 and Bell's inequality seems to violate those 03:16:07 chaos theory essentially says that a complex system can create effectively unpredictable behavior because we do not possess perfect information. That doesn't make *any* behavior truly random or nondeterministic 03:16:18 or was that the other way around 03:16:33 I'm unfamiliar with bell's inequality 03:17:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_inequality 03:27:44 -!- faxathisia has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 03:34:21 This is part of why I like the Everett interpretation. 03:37:08 That and I'm a born minimalist anyway so I like the reduction in core theoretical apparatus. Keep Schrödinger wavefunction, lose everything else. 03:37:30 And as a bonus it explains how we got through fifty+ years of thermonuclear bombs on hair trigger. 03:44:19 Excuse me, Schr(A with tilde)(paragraph break)dinger? 03:45:34 oh right, it's unicode. 03:50:20 actually the wierd is, it wasn't, it was ISO-8859-1 03:50:48 so how you got to see the UTF8 expansion i don't know :) 03:51:38 *weird thing 03:54:30 i didn.t 03:54:51 * pikhq laughs at the B Nomic game state 03:54:52 i got Schr-A with tilde-paragraph break-dinger. 03:55:00 It may or may not have a dictator. 03:55:05 It may or may not have any rules. 03:55:06 yes, that's the UTF8 expansion 03:55:16 It may or may not be an Agoran protectorate. 03:55:23 _not_ the actual Unicode character though 03:55:26 I may or may not be a player. 03:57:06 immibis: for you to see it, something on your path must have _first_ converted ISO-8859-1 to Unicode, _then_ your client must have failed and displayed it as if it _still_ was ISO-8859-1. 03:57:36 i'm guessing it was a condensed oe thing from the context. 03:57:49 o 03:58:14 er, "o 03:58:40 i guess is still something squiggly to you 03:59:37 no, is a shorter double quote. 04:00:04 even to me. 04:00:27 or two dots depending on what you call it. 04:00:32 ok 04:00:41 so what is schrdinger? 04:02:23 schr-o with two dots-dinger. 04:02:26 that's strange. 04:02:54 that looks the same on my screen as in dbc's comment 04:03:32 and the same in the logs 04:04:11 must be a heisenbug 04:04:18 right time for it too :) 04:06:57 or, more likely, his was posted in utf-8 and yours in iso9660. 04:07:01 i mean iso8859-1. 04:07:10 iso9660's a filesystem format, silly me. 04:07:25 er i said they looked the same to me, and in the logs 04:17:25 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. If you think nobody cares, try miss). 04:53:59 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 05:16:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Who keeps reincarnating sliced bread?!"). 05:17:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:19:33 -!- calamari has joined. 05:45:42 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 05:56:41 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:08:13 RodgerTheGreat: the problem with your proof is, it just proves (well, doesn't really, but that's required for it to work) that an oracle can be created in the physical world 07:10:00 what? my nick hasn't changed back automatically! 07:10:03 -!- oklopoo has changed nick to oklopol. 07:12:51 errrer i have some weird pronoun use there, anyhow, my point is, even if the universe was fully continuous or something and you could actually have an infinite memory, time travel would provide an oracle (as the name might suggest...), the problem is, there is no paradox here, no system is predicting it's own behavior. 07:13:09 -!- Nonick-989170 has joined. 07:18:44 o 07:22:07 Hello sir. 07:22:13 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p341313315.txt factorials in oklotalk! 07:22:14 -!- Nonick-989170 has changed nick to Slereah. 07:22:28 heyyyy there are people here i haven't talked about oklotalk yet :D 07:23:56 i started development again cuz i chose oklotalk as my... well, a graduation project or smth 07:24:24 although admittedly i should've programmed something awesome in unlambda or smth xD 07:30:32 -!- ELIZA197 has joined. 07:32:10 TALK TO ME OR I'LL EAT YOU 07:32:42 HELLO ELIZA197 07:32:56 ADDRESS ME AS ELIZA. 07:33:02 :( 07:34:00 Hello. Please state your problem. 07:34:45 Heh. A friend rewrote my Turing machine in Ruby. 07:34:51 Let's see how it works! 07:37:43 ELIZA: Poo. 07:37:53 Please go ahead. 07:39:23 ELIZA: What? 07:39:30 Tell me more about your head being about to explode. 07:41:10 -!- Jontte has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:43:39 ELIZA: You are stupid. 07:43:47 Does it please you to think I am stupid ? 07:48:23 -!- immibis has joined. 07:48:53 ELIZA: hi 07:49:02 But your heart is beating! 07:51:08 Okay. I have a cron job to kill -9 Firefox on the half-hour, then I have a script to prevent that but it won't work twice in a row. 07:53:56 how does that work? 07:54:43 I just set up two scripts that check for, create, and destroy temp files. 07:55:08 ok but what's the use of it (apart from annoying everyone who uses your computer) 07:55:33 It's to help remind me not to waste too much time on the web. 07:56:19 The time cost of restarting firefox and restoring seventy tabs or so is enough that I'm hoping it won't become a reflex. 07:57:11 seventy? 07:57:39 Something like that. 07:57:44 * immibis wonders that dbc hasn't run out of memory and swap partition space. 07:58:05 That used to happen more with the last version of firefox. This one seems better. 07:59:07 (this one being 2.0.0.10) 07:59:22 It does lose the ability to run movies after a while, but that's all so far. 07:59:36 whata bout 2.0.0.11 07:59:52 ELIZA: What's the latest version of firefox? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:01 Wouldn't you like to know? 08:00:11 Haven't tried. Not 100% sure I should chance it. 08:01:29 HOT WATER RULES! 08:01:44 eliza: excuse me? 08:02:01 FELINES AWAY 08:02:42 eliza: shut up 08:03:02 But your neck is swollen to the size of an elephant! 08:05:31 eliza: it is not. 08:05:41 Why do you think it is not? 08:06:07 GO FISHCAKES 08:06:26 Wow did I underestimate. I have 158 tabs open now, in two windows. 08:06:44 158..... 08:06:58 and where do you find so many sites to browse? 08:07:11 at once. 08:08:44 and did you know the computer you're on doesn't exist and is unreachable by the internet? 08:08:53 there are at least 255 computers between it and me. 08:09:28 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:09:28 -!- ELIZA197 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:11:58 Roughly half of that is porn and TGPs. Some is boardgamegeek and other things I'm meaning to read and/or buy. 08:12:02 I'm afraid to just bookmark stuff because I'll never get back to it. 08:12:06 dd_rescue reference page. That takes me back. 08:12:16 Eggnog recipe. Seven places to buy my favorite pens that they stopped making. Pentel Micro Fine Superball. 08:12:37 Political stuff. More laws to gradually increase the power of government. 08:13:25 :) 10:28:16 -!- jix has joined. 11:41:11 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 11:41:19 -!- jix has joined. 12:39:53 Pilot G2s for the win. 12:57:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:23:14 =) 13:23:16 oops 14:31:12 -!- faxathisia has joined. 14:53:21 -!- Jontte has joined. 15:07:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:12:44 -!- Jontte has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 15:21:08 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:23:50 -!- cherez has joined. 15:25:19 -!- Jontte has joined. 15:44:45 -!- ehird` has joined. 15:47:39 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:48:28 -!- ehird` has joined. 16:13:20 -!- Jontte has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 16:16:19 -!- Jontte has joined. 16:23:04 -!- RedDak has joined. 16:25:19 -!- Jontte has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 16:42:54 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:49:47 -!- Dagide has joined. 16:52:22 -!- dak__ has joined. 16:55:15 -!- Dagide has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:09:09 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:22:26 -!- dak__ has quit (Connection timed out). 18:34:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("Supper"). 18:43:32 this is fascinating: http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Babylonian_numerals.html 19:03:42 Why am I whistling "99 bottles of beer" while testing a Fibonacci program? 19:05:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:07:30 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:14:30 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 19:30:40 In retrospect, it was a poor idea to do a Fibonacci without some sort of addition code first. 19:31:51 whistling 99b while implementing fibo is a normal phase in the descent into gibbering insanity. Welcome to the party. 19:32:13 Yay! 19:34:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:34:59 :) 19:35:21 is anyone going to give me some context, or do I have to read the logs again? 19:35:46 or am I assuming lack of context when in fact it's me that's being smiled at? 19:36:04 * ais523 reads the logs 19:36:16 Slereah: Why am I whistling "99 bottles of beer" while testing a Fibonacci program? 19:36:16 Slereah: In retrospect, it was a poor idea to do a Fibonacci without some sort of addition code first. 19:36:16 RodgerTheGreat: whistling 99b while implementing fibo is a normal phase in the descent into gibbering insanity. Welcome to the party. 19:36:16 Slereah: Yay! 19:36:31 goddamnit man give me some time to edit! 19:37:11 thanks for that. I just logged on to test a new laptop 19:37:27 I don't actually have an Internet connection so I'm testing the wireless connection at Uni too 19:38:54 ah 19:39:21 at least it's better than the ancient version of Chatzilla that was the only client I used to have access to 19:40:04 nonlogic has a Java-based client hidden somewhere within our info pages 19:40:43 I tried to use a Java-based client, but it couldn't get round the firewall 19:40:58 whereas Chatzilla was running on a mainframe with the relevant port open 19:41:16 but the only Web browser was the corresponding version of Mozilla 19:41:34 which was so old that I once managed to accidentally break Wikipedia pages with it until someone told me to stop 19:45:29 cgi:irc? 19:45:59 or: parenrc, but since that's still in development i guess not :) 19:46:34 does it work on Solaris without being installed or in fact the executable going anywhere near the computer? 19:47:02 construct something hideous out of bash scripts and netcat 19:47:16 that's almost worth doing 19:47:31 just imagine- decoding the streams with sed! 19:47:54 * ais523 is a big fan of sed 19:48:10 sed is great yeah 19:48:11 I was on this computer and had no working mouse, ruling out all the graphical editors preinstalled. 19:48:12 it could only get better if you needed to do something involving bit shifting 19:48:30 I like nano for console-based editing 19:48:32 I don't know how to use vi, and emacs wasn't installed (and I couldn't install it without a web connection) 19:48:41 so I edited with cat and sed 19:48:42 nano! 19:48:48 impressive, but insane 19:49:00 (and I forgot about nano even though I'd used it on a different computer the previous day) 19:49:16 <3 my nanorc 19:49:18 Subversion seems to end up using it by default for some reason 19:49:51 nano, as few people know, can be configured to syntax-hilight. 19:50:47 the best thing about editing with sed is that my brother was watching, and asked "why does your edit command start with 's/^#.*/?", which is a valid question for someone used to Windows 19:51:05 (the question mark was the end of the question rather than part of the sed command) 19:52:26 RodgerTheGreat: can nano syntax-highlight Perl correctly? 19:52:40 I've never yet found a syntax highlighter that can handle both its complicated quoting rules and regexps 19:52:46 I dunno 19:53:34 has MonkeyofDoom been around recently? 19:53:46 They were asking for C-INTERCAL help a while ago, but I wasn't online at the time 19:58:41 if MonkeyofDoom is reading this in the logs, my advice would be to try a more recent version (unless they're already trying the most recent version) 19:59:04 the most recent is currently 1.26, obtainable from http://intercal.freeshell.org/download 19:59:28 it makes fewer Linuxy assumptions than some of the older versions 19:59:47 20:00:16 holy SHIT. An article I just read suggests that "woot" is in fact an acronym! 20:00:30 what, even if spelt with 0 rather than o? 20:00:35 "we owned the other team" 20:00:53 in that case, it should be spelt wotot from now on 20:01:23 just like CAPTTTTCHA 20:01:30 sorry, CAPTTTCAHA 20:01:41 wotot. It could catch on, I guess... 20:02:20 * ais523 just noticed that they typoed on both CAPTCHA expansions 20:02:26 it's actually CAPTTTTCAHA 20:04:30 nowadays wotot should probably be wptot 20:08:37 on the subject of acronyms, I once read a joke article that the name of the programming language C was in fact an acronym 20:08:51 the article alleged it was a recursive acronym that stood for "C" 20:09:04 if that isn't the real etymology, it ought to be 20:10:12 A, B, C, though :\ 20:10:41 I've heard a serious suggestion that C was named after B, but B was named after BCPL 20:10:47 sparking huge debates about whether the next version of the language would be called D or P 20:10:59 :D 20:13:29 * ais523 has just come across an article written by Microsoft attempting to explain leet 20:13:45 it was by following a link; Microsoft took it down, but it's still in Wayback 20:14:35 http://web.archive.org/web/20060101013059/http://microsoft.com/athome/security/children/kidtalk.mspx 20:15:53 it's just a rather amusing incongruity 20:17:17 the first two keypoints sorta overlap 20:18:08 no, they're obviously completely different; one is about numbers, and the other is about numbers /and/ symbols 20:18:31 you have to pay good money to get an upgrade from the first keypoint to the second 20:19:35 -!- ais523 has quit ("Konversation terminated!"). 20:26:48 -!- parenbot has joined. 20:27:01 heyyyy, it works! 20:28:43 -!- ehird` has left (?). 20:28:46 -!- ehird` has joined. 20:28:46 Somebody joined. As of yet, I don't know who or where, but somebody joined! 20:29:22 parenbot: Help 20:29:31 what do you guys think of these character design ideas? http://nonlogic.org/dump/images/1197490667-snow.png 20:29:42 faxathisia: No, not yet. ;P 20:29:49 hey that's cool 20:29:51 faxathisia: I added the join hook from a REPL 20:29:59 faxathisia: I'll put it in a file soon 20:30:08 ehird`: Oh this bot is written in som schemeish language you wrote in C? 20:30:23 faxathisia: No, that implementation spiralled out of control :P 20:30:38 It's written in Common Lisp, because Common Lisp has cl-irc, and cl-irc is a very nice low-level IRC wrapper 20:30:50 cl-irc has a bug in it >:| 20:30:53 Does it :( 20:31:04 (What, that it's written in Common Lisp? :-)) 20:31:17 nah.. something to do with finding a subsequence in a stream 20:31:23 shame 20:31:24 I would have fixed it but the maintainer freaked me out 20:31:28 hm 20:31:30 in what way 20:31:55 time to visit a file, methinks 20:31:59 -!- parenbot has left (?). 20:32:15 if it's looking for "foobar" and in the string "blah blah foofoobar baz" it will fail 20:32:26 "but the maintainer freaked me out" in what way 20:32:52 * faxathisia didn't manage to avoid that well :p... I think they were just bush and rushed at the time 20:33:00 busy* 20:33:15 :P 20:35:09 what's the bot for? 20:36:49 lots of stuff 20:36:58 :-) 20:37:06 do you want a brainfuck evaluator in CL 20:37:18 http://paste.lisp.org/display/49075 20:37:23 it'll have the regular bot convenience things (google, etc.), some esolang interps, lots of lisp-related stuff, ... 20:37:33 that'd be neta 20:39:23 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 20:39:44 it will run on SBCL 20:39:56 so, there'll be a good lisp system under it for its evaluators 20:40:14 * faxathisia is wondering if they should improve and add to SBCLs current FFI or rewrite it :| 20:40:21 (er not rewrite it but write a new one) 20:40:42 i'm basically completely new to common lisp (not scheme though) so this will be my first 'major' thing 20:45:20 faxathisia: i'm planning on adding some kind of web interface to administrate the bot 20:45:22 with weblocks, or something 20:45:37 I'd recommend hunchentoot 20:45:51 if you want a webserver to connect to 20:45:59 and you can just code the site in lisp which is great 20:46:00 weblocks uses hunchentoot 20:46:07 weblocks is a lisp webframework :-) 20:46:13 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-weblocks/ 20:46:15 (Would probably recommend agianst weblocks though...) 20:46:22 i've played with weblocks, i like it 20:46:29 why do would you not recommend it? 20:48:47 oh I had some impression of it which seems false 20:48:51 what impression? :-) 20:48:56 but I only looked at it like a year ago or something like that 20:49:14 it has only existed for a few months 20:51:53 * ehird` ponders whether parenbot should be modular/plugin-based/etc or not 20:52:10 SLIME based! 20:52:23 you can just hack it while it's running 20:52:35 or should I say, swank instead of slime 20:53:22 welp i do have SLIME open all the time, but I'm not sure I'll write parenbot based entirely on SLIME :-) 20:53:26 it should work fine in slime, at least 20:53:41 (A lot of fun using SLIME to mess with opengl interactively..) 20:56:59 faxathisia: i don't think i want it modular/etc just now. what do you think? 20:57:06 well, modular code of course 20:57:11 but not 'everything's a plugin' 20:57:16 the commands will just be part of parenbot 20:57:22 yeah I think it's a bad idea to have everything a plugin 20:57:40 I'd just run a swank server in the bot, then connect to that to edit the code 20:57:46 so you get plugin for free basically 20:57:55 (free meaning zero lines of code) 20:58:35 (and this making me want to write some CL program more and more :p) 20:59:47 how is that making it a plugin? 20:59:50 i mean like a plugin with the bot 20:59:55 so you can do, like 20:59:58 *load blah 21:00:00 *reload blah 21:00:01 *unload blah 21:00:08 blah being, 'google' or 'eval' or something 21:00:22 yeah 21:00:45 I would use slime and then you can just connect to the bot, load the blah file, or edit any part of the code at all 21:00:56 but that doesn't let you do that /from within irc/ 21:01:16 m.. I would not use IRC as a text editor 21:02:44 that's not using it as a text editor 21:02:58 the basic idea is that a plugin has-many commands 21:07:58 -!- ihope has joined. 21:13:02 ihope: you vote 21:13:10 parenbot: plugin-based or i just put commands in it 21:14:22 Vote? 21:14:35 Plugin-based. 21:15:30 But that's woooorrrk! :P 21:15:38 But ok. 21:17:04 parenbot = bot supporting parenthesis? :P 21:17:47 GregorR: No, bot written in Common Lisp with lots of generic, esolang and lisp stuff :P 21:18:43 Silly CLOS. 21:18:53 * ehird` is getting tired of writing (X :accessor X :initarg :X :initform nil) 21:19:25 * faxathisia never found a good use for CLOS... 21:20:00 (well CLOS seems to be very good for.. implementing CLOS) 21:20:32 Common Lisp ... Object System? Operating System? 21:20:34 \ 21:20:43 the object system 21:20:44 Object system :P 21:21:05 faxathisia: Eh, since I'm doing plugins a 'plugin' class for inheriting makes sense. 21:21:09 So, I might as well have a parenbot class. 21:21:31 Urgh, I wish cl-irc wasn't so connection-centric. 21:21:39 What if I want multiple servers, huh? huh? punk >:( 21:21:45 I'd probably just have an alist like '((bf #' faxathisia: Bah. 21:22:05 That's just implementing CLOS on top of clos 21:22:11 Also, cl-irc uses CLOS :P 21:25:59 ihope: Should I allow plugins to be /registered/ with a parenbot, but not activated? 21:26:08 or should i just say: registered plugins = active plugins 21:27:13 any bot using the @ prefix in here? 21:30:08 ehird`: yeah, registered but not activated. 21:30:37 ihope: what's the point of a loaded but inactive plugin though? why not just unload it? 21:31:34 What if the plugin won't still be around to load when you want to use it? 21:32:01 If that can't happen, go ahead and say registered means activated. 21:32:36 Or, I guess, if loading it before you need to use it is easier in any way. 21:35:04 i doubt that will happen 21:35:08 short of someone deleting it :-) 21:35:18 (In which case, they'd unload it before deleting it, of course.) 21:36:15 ihope: Of course, you can still get the list of unactivated plugins 21:36:22 they'd just be noted as "available, but unloaded" 21:36:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:36:28 * ihope nods 21:36:42 * faxathisia is baffled by all this, wonders why you don't just want it to do everything :p 21:36:45 * oerjan shakes his head 21:36:46 So there's no creating plugins on the fly, or loading plugins from random Internet places. 21:37:19 Of course not, plugins can contain arbitary Lisp code. 21:37:27 Do you think I'm *that* crazy? :-) 21:37:31 :-) 21:37:37 All OK, then. 21:39:03 whistling 99b while implementing fibo is a normal phase in the descent into gibbering insanity. Welcome to the party. 21:39:26 i say we are in need of something like lambdabot's @quote command 21:39:33 oerjan: parenbot will have that! 21:39:39 faxathisia: Well I do. :D 21:39:41 nice 21:39:59 oerjan: Unless someone does @unload quote! :P 21:40:06 In which case you could just do @load quote again! 21:40:20 I think I might add a full-blown parser for the commands, with type-checking. 21:40:36 @factorial floob --> Error! Command factorial expects an integer as first parameter, got string 21:40:39 Mwahahahaha! 21:41:47 @factorial 1000000000 21:42:12 GregorR: 0 21:42:17 Oh, it's not actually here :P 21:42:35 (Arithmetic overflow. Please increase width.) 21:42:51 Increase width -> eat bacon 21:43:07 hmm 21:43:24 since you have arbitrary precision integers in CL... 21:43:34 what if someone does @factorial 99999999999999999999999999999999999 21:43:43 GregorR: i can give you the last 100000000 digits or so if you want :) 21:43:53 faxathisia: it takes a while? 21:44:00 in general.. How are you going to force a command to terminate after a timeout? 21:44:26 faxathisia: uh, by doing just that 21:44:32 Or rather 21:44:37 Just letting you kill processes. 21:44:46 And @factorial would have a sanity check, ofc 21:44:49 so you'd spawn a new lisp process for each command? 21:44:57 no 21:45:00 i'd just spawn a new thread. 21:45:03 Non-incidentally, my Plof interpreter can do some basic Plof code now ^^ 21:45:16 Simple 0-argument function calls, setting variables, etc. 21:45:38 GregorR: But Does It Have Reusable Continuations?(TM) 21:45:51 No It Doen't (yet) [TM] 21:46:10 Well Add It, Before You Get Too Far And Irrevocably Destroy All Chances Of It(TM) 21:46:14 * ihope ponders a write-once filesystem 21:46:34 Nothing I Can Do To The Plof Grammar Will Affect It, Since That Would All Have To Do With The Underlying PSL [TM] 21:47:18 * oerjan ponders a write-exactly-three-times filesystem 21:47:22 very briefly. 21:47:43 faxathisia: how do I do keyword arguments with defaults in a CLOS method without making them a specific type? :/ 21:47:54 can't do (arg default) since that's (arg type) 21:48:43 isn't there a top object type in CL? 21:49:02 A write-exactly-three-times filesystem is pretty simple given a write-once filesystem. 21:49:03 (defmethod foo (&key (bar 53)) bar) 21:49:09 Just ignore the first two writes. 21:49:20 (foo) ; -> 53 21:49:31 ah, but naturally it should require the three writes to be the same 21:49:38 for safety 21:49:42 ihope: write("/foo", "a"); read("/foo") /* empty because you ignored it */ 21:50:19 GregorR: but that's not writing exactly three times! 21:50:23 faxathisia: so how do i give a keyword argument a type? :-) 21:50:34 in the defgeneric ? 21:50:39 ihope: You should only be able to read after all three writes? 21:50:41 in the defmethod 21:50:46 honestly CLOS is just making things hard for you :p 21:50:47 Yes! 21:50:50 as it does every problem 21:50:55 (that I ever experienced) 21:51:03 (defmethod foo ((bot parenbot) ...) ...) ; parenbot is a type 21:51:14 i can't seem to do that with a kwarg, since it'd be taken as the default 21:51:25 you cannot specialize on keywords or optionals 21:51:36 the semantics of it would be too confusing.. there's too many ways it could work 21:52:15 good point 21:57:09 * ehird` wonders where he should add the code to scan for plugins 21:58:32 Scan for plugins? My. 21:59:24 :-) 21:59:32 oh wait, asdf will load them 21:59:40 ooh cool 21:59:40 so all i need to do is define a plugin superclass that takes note 21:59:53 asdf for plugins nice 22:00:00 faxathisia: well. in the loosest sense. 22:00:07 * faxathisia thinks that is a good idea 22:00:18 i just mean in my defsystem, in the :components list i'll add the files i have for plugins :-) 22:00:27 it would be interesting to actually use asdf though 22:00:51 if you used asdf since you're using sbcl just hit (require :brainfuck) or whatever to load a plugin (require falls back to asdf:oos load-op) 22:01:14 i guess 22:01:30 (instead of a brainfuck plugin i think i'll have an esolangs plugin. does that sound ok?) 22:04:43 faxathisia-ping 22:04:51 hello 22:05:27 A whole bunch of esolang interpreters written in CL would be a nice package 22:06:15 yeah 22:06:17 the idea is that 22:06:23 most commands will run an external program 22:06:37 oh.. you don't want to actually code the interpreters in CL 22:06:38 ? 22:06:42 no, i could do that 22:06:50 it'd just make a new sbcl for it :-) 22:06:59 reason being if that process goes to hell the bot stays alive 22:08:50 faxathisia: seems reasonable to me, maybe not to you :-) 22:09:14 i mean, i'd have brainfuck.lisp, and underload.lisp, etc., and finally parenbot.lisp which would register them all as running a lisp interpreter on the appropriate interp 22:13:54 faxathisia: i mean, otherwise one command could f up the whole bot 22:14:03 yeah, hehe 22:14:13 I mkdir on someone elses computer cause they had a lisp with eval 22:14:34 gave them a good scare :p 22:15:17 yeah, my eval command will run an sbcl process, kill everything that isn't 100% safe, run one command, then bail out 22:15:33 though that would kinda ruin variables :-) 22:17:45 -!- `_ has joined. 22:18:14 faxathisia: so, let's get this straight... parenbot plugin = asdf system + cl package? 22:18:39 which is not special in any way, just happens to import parenbot and define classes inheriting from parenbot:plugin? 22:20:37 ihope: `_: you can have an opinion on that too :P 22:20:58 -!- `_ has changed nick to ihioe_. 22:21:00 My. 22:21:05 -!- ihioe_ has changed nick to ihope_. 22:22:18 -!- Tobias_Thanos has joined. 22:22:54 My. what 22:23:13 Oh noes, an Oregoner! 22:23:26 yep 22:23:32 `_. 22:23:46 GregorR: wait, didn't you have some Oregonness at one point? 22:24:10 I am in fact in Oregon, but Comcast's hostname generation appears to be el retarded :P 22:25:00 so do you speak Oregano? 22:25:23 I was never fluent :( 22:25:42 I'm currently taking lessons 22:26:01 I don't know Oregano, but my good friend Alfredo Linguini is. 22:26:04 Does. 22:27:38 anyone? 22:30:30 Anyone what? 22:31:23 see 22:18-22:20 (it's 22:30) 22:31:49 Okay? 22:32:42 i'm asking if its a good idea :P 22:33:08 buy low! sell high! 22:33:15 haha 22:33:30 oh, you were not asking _for_ a good idea. sorry. 22:36:44 ehird`: asking if what's a good idea? 22:37:11 the 22:18 - 22:20 stuff 22:37:30 "faxathisia: so, let" ... "nbot:plugin?" 22:37:58 :( 22:38:48 faxathisia: ? 22:39:04 * faxathisia doesn't know if it's a good idea or not.. 22:39:11 maybe just run with it and see what happens 22:39:21 alright 22:39:45 it means that i can do crazy things like write a plugin, then 22:39:54 *load the-package-name 22:39:59 *boom* there it is 22:40:11 :S 22:40:12 Sounds fine? 22:40:14 faxathisia: although this requires me to be able to access a list of all the subclasses of a given CLOS class 22:40:20 faxathisia: is that even possible? 22:40:21 Mm. 22:40:25 I'd just open emasc.. connect to the irc bot.. write the plugin 22:40:29 it works without the boom in this case 22:40:36 (and without typing *load into IRC) 22:41:02 faxathisia: i like having files 22:41:03 :-) 22:41:16 yes you would be editing a file and sending the code from it into the lisp 22:41:34 well, the difference here is that you define a package, and the bot treats them as plugins 22:41:55 ... but unless there's a way to get a list of the subclasses of parenbot:plugin, i can forget about it 22:42:56 you can list all the subclasses of a class 22:43:55 class-direct-subclasses 22:44:28 (but that's part of sb-mop, not cl) 22:44:40 what is this 'sb-mop' 22:44:49 sbcls implementation of MOP 22:45:00 ahhh 22:45:01 reflective dynamic cool stuff undneath/backstage CLOS 22:45:04 sbcl-specific 22:45:17 well it's a standardized protocoll 22:45:17 ok, another way of thinkin about it: can i run some arbitary code when a class is subclassed? 22:45:25 implementations are incomplete though, but this is SBCLs one 22:45:37 http://lisp.org/mop/index.html 22:47:47 -!- Tobias_Thanos has quit ("Leaving"). 22:51:25 is running some arbitary code on subclass possible though? 22:56:11 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 2007-12-13: 00:42:19 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:45:51 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:07:03 -!- Slereah has joined. 01:43:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:56:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:27:43 -!- faxathisia has quit ("Leaving"). 03:47:34 oerjan: http://b.nomic.net/index.php/Potential_Gamestates 03:48:09 And that's incomplete. 04:00:19 I like the conclusion :D 04:03:40 A state of emergency is defined by the rules of B Nomic. 04:04:16 And, best of all, it's defined by players panicing. 04:08:10 ah, that would be the one rule you didn't repeal? 04:08:13 Yes. 04:08:43 And the mere *existence* of that repeal is debatable. 04:08:57 If B does not have a Chancellor, B may or may not have a ruleset. 04:10:09 Currently, the gamestates are being rectified. . . 04:10:50 If my repeal happened, then the refresh proposal will reset stuff. If it didn't happen, then if there is a Chancellor, he resets stuff. Otherwise, the refresh proposal does so. 04:37:33 oerjan: 04:37:33 i say we are in need of something like lambdabot's @quote command <- is this implying you felt that comment deserved to be saved for posterity? 04:37:53 yep 04:38:01 thanks. :D 05:13:35 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:13:36 -!- sekhmet has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:13:36 -!- Possum has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:13:49 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 05:13:49 -!- sekhmet has joined. 05:13:49 -!- Possum has joined. 05:32:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 06:25:18 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:38:25 -!- immibis has joined. 06:39:13 quotes? hmm, i could add something for that, but that'd require me to get ololobot multinetworkous first 06:39:30 goneeee -> 06:41:28 -!- immibis_ has joined. 06:50:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 06:54:36 -!- immibis___ has joined. 06:54:56 -!- immibis has quit (Nick collision from services.). 06:54:58 -!- immibis_ has quit (Nick collision from services.). 06:55:01 -!- immibis___ has changed nick to immibis. 07:01:21 * immibis didn't see nything wrong with the names "Worse Than Failure" or "The Daily Worse Than Failure" 07:39:35 -!- immibis_ has joined. 07:55:45 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:58:48 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:40 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. When the chips are down, well, the ). 08:22:14 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:53:57 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Who keeps reincarnating sliced bread?!"). 09:40:12 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:42:24 -!- complexity has joined. 10:42:47 does anyone knows where I can find the grammar for brainfuck ? 10:55:35 esolang.org 10:55:39 and check the wiki 10:55:48 uhh 10:55:49 esolangs 11:07:28 okay 11:07:32 i officially own :O 11:08:09 wrote a program to generate random melodies... after changing random_choice to random.choice, it worked perfectly 8| 11:08:15 Which grammar? 11:08:18 i have like 20 functions... 11:08:23 well, python ;) 11:08:49 okay, i don't own, just proved once again you can't make mistakes in python 11:09:33 melodies currently only use "good notes", or the notes constituting current chord 11:09:49 and they suck pretty bad 11:10:02 but you can hear the chord anyways, it's kinda neat :P 11:13:03 If you want a context-free grammar, one is S -> SS | '[' S ']' | | 11:13:29 hmm? 11:13:41 "does anyone knows where I can find the grammar for brainfuck ?" 11:13:48 oh 11:13:53 i though that was for me 11:13:54 :D 11:14:01 Nope. 11:14:06 the earlier one too was for the earlier request then 11:14:21 i thought it was a weird way to ask "what language did you write it in" :D 11:14:25 Nope. 11:14:44 Sorry :) 11:14:58 "nope"? don't you mean "exactly"? 11:15:10 ooooh 11:15:19 ah, the ambiguities of natural language <3 11:15:37 i need to eat something, anyone wanna hear the chaos my prog currently creates? :P 11:15:41 Sure. 11:15:55 that was one weird sentence, but wait, i'll upload 11:16:05 the code, that is, can you run python? 11:16:16 or, i could make it output to a file 11:16:21 can you play raw data? :P 11:16:33 Yeah. I'll get the code now and run it later if that's okay. 11:17:21 also, it's played with a broken sine wave, since the player is also written by me, and i was a bit lazy with the design, so it became hard to get adjacent waves to start smoothly. 11:17:35 basically meaning there are clicks, and the overall sound is not good. 11:17:44 but, anyway, i'll upload 11:18:21 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p615613433.txt 11:19:02 Thanks. See you later. 11:19:04 (commenting on the code isn't necessary, since i know everything that's wrong with it and don't care what people think. using python, this just happens to be the easiest way to pass programs on.) 11:19:07 yarrrr 11:19:13 i'll go now, indeed -> 11:21:58 actually I have another few minutes. And that seems to work smoothly. 11:23:00 What all would need changing to get a different chord sequence? 11:23:06 (of different length i.e.) 11:36:47 hmm 11:36:52 see rand_chord_ptrn 11:36:58 rand_rhythm_ptrn 11:37:02 rand_melody_ptrn 11:37:10 the last one is where suckyness comes along 11:37:48 i had written a hundred lines of code up to that point, so was beginning to lose confidence on it working as i wanted :D 11:38:18 so... it just randomizes the melody completely, using the "good notes", or the notes best fitting for the current chord 11:38:39 Ah. 11:39:04 the chords are tuples, (base_note in [0..11], a number indicating the type of chord (0 for minor, 1 for major)) 11:39:59 if i make a better one, i'll not rely on chords and "good notes", but instead just calculate what notes fit best, and which chords fit best 11:40:20 less "built-in", more fun! (and prolly much much more chaotic :\) 11:41:05 -!- jix has joined. 11:42:37 dbc: what do you mean by "smoothly"? do you hear the clicks between notes, and does the sound "break"... not sure what the correct term is... 11:51:34 given a brainfuck program how can one find whether it is syntactically correct or not ? 11:52:11 I guess the only place one has to look is the while loops... other than that I guess all other operations are valid.. Am I missing somehting ? 11:56:28 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:59:29 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:00:38 complexity: CORRECT 12:00:45 WHOOPS 12:14:30 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:12:06 -!- piksi has joined. 13:13:15 Please, play paranoid in a graphical form 13:20:55 ascii form enough? 13:21:24 i shall attempt 13:22:05 000.000.00.5.7.A.C.5.7.A.C * 4 13:22:28 where . separates two notes, and a note is the number of steps upwards from E 13:22:43 with A... being the numbers 10... 13:22:50 then, verse 13:23:03 C. * 16 13:23:06 A. * 16 13:23:43 F.AAA.C.___. 13:23:52 sorry, failure there :) 13:24:01 A. * 8 in fact 13:24:09 then, chorus 13:24:34 CCCCCCCC.8888.AAAA. 13:24:36 basically. 13:24:47 the rest is repetition, plus a guitar solo, which is prolly improvised 13:24:52 have fun listening 13:25:43 also, irp in #irp 13:35:51 i don't really get why that piece is popular, i've heard small children write better melodies :\ 14:02:22 -!- miiro has joined. 14:02:44 -!- tejeez has joined. 14:11:01 -!- jix has joined. 14:21:38 I hear the clicks, yes. I don't mind them though :) 14:21:46 :D 14:22:02 well, good, they will go away once i make a better system for the waves 14:22:21 Cool. I'm guessing a more complex timbre is in your plans? 14:22:24 currently, waves save information about their actual byte representations themselves 14:23:14 so, they save their base, and their amplitude, and actually themselves apply them to the bytes they produce 14:23:36 the problem is, when i start adding waves, i need to remove both those, add, and put them back 14:23:46 so... the routines have become quite cluttered. 14:24:09 now imagine adding something to make waves start where the last on ended... uhhh the pain 14:25:12 so, i was thinking, i'll just save the function, and ask for it's derivative (optionally), if one is given, it's a trivial task approximating the perfect base for the next wave, and the perfect phase to start from (by newton's method for example) 14:25:20 base 14:25:38 means what value the wave flunctuates around' 14:25:41 Hm. 14:25:42 flunctuates? 14:25:46 Fluctuates. 14:25:49 ah. 14:25:51 They don't fluctuate around zero? 14:25:59 well, the sine waves do 14:26:08 but the actual range is 0...255 14:26:14 Ah. I didn't check what other kinds you had. 14:26:27 but, as you may know, the sound is the same no matter what the base is 14:26:43 so... why the fuck would every wave need their own base :D 14:27:40 the base should be 128 originally, but, if it's helpful, it could be changed so that a wave could best fit the last written byte, and the derivative of the last wave at the end point 14:28:04 and could gradually shift back to 128 during the playing of that sound. 14:28:39 because the same wave is generally played for thousands of bytes, you can shift so slowly there's no way to hear it. 14:28:46 You are probably going to want to make each note fade out rather than just cut off, at some point, right? That in itself would solve half your problem. 14:29:03 heh, never occurred to me :P 14:29:33 but, yeah, i think i'd've added that anyway once i'd made the wave objects "less raw" 14:29:39 having all the wave functions start at x=0 at the start of each note would solve the other half. 14:29:55 I think. 14:30:23 the fading might indeed be a better way to do it 14:30:44 but my idea is much harder to implement 14:30:45 ! 14:30:49 Huh? 14:31:53 actually, i think even if they are faded in, the optimal starting point is the point the last note is in. 14:32:23 Hm. 14:32:57 well, let's say you shift out the same wave you shift in 14:33:13 in that case, if you start at where the last wave is, it's perfect. 14:33:30 since it's the exact same as if you'd just made the original wave twice as long 14:34:00 now, again, if we start at x=0, you will have a moment where the phase shifts. 14:34:20 since the new wave starts from a different phase than the one the other is in 14:34:35 (I wasn't even thinking fade in, just out. Though fading in as well, somewhat quicker, would indeed sound more realistic than an abrupt start. What I was thinking about the start of each note is to arrange them so that all the sine functions are at x=0, y=0 at the start of the note they're part of. I.e. use the note as the basis for the x-scale and not the whole piece, assuming that's what you're doing now.. That will be as smooth a start a 14:34:35 s could be asked for. 14:34:57 Not sure if I'm being clear though. 14:35:45 you prolly are, i just need a while to grasp anything 14:37:07 Am I right in guessing you're now computing amplitudes for each byte on the basis of a sine function whose input is that byte's location in the whole piece of music? 14:37:20 ah 14:37:38 you mean, when i start the note, am i sending the wave function 0 or the number of cycles sofar= 14:37:39 ? 14:37:46 Yeah. 14:37:52 That's what I'm asking. 14:37:54 sofar. 14:38:10 but, i do a bit of cycling there 14:38:32 i go forward in the wave to find a good spot to start the new sound 14:38:40 Ah. 14:39:03 if the last note ended at 200, the note is traversed until it's close to 200, and going the same direction. 14:39:13 i do all this in a very ugly fashion, as you can see at... 14:39:17 wait, i'll locate the function 14:39:33 get_bytes 14:39:41 in hzSound 14:40:37 it's uuuugly 14:40:43 i don't wanna look at ti 14:40:44 it 14:40:58 Clear enough. 14:41:22 clear, but ugly1 :D i'm calculating the average of the bases of the subwaves! :D 14:41:43 the composer function doesn't use the feature, but you can actually play chords too 14:42:03 when you have multiple waves, you really hear the clicks and the bad quality of the sound 14:42:10 I mean "clear" about "i don't wanna look at it". Then I said "clear enough" as in "i hear you". Ambiguities of natural language again... 14:42:52 volume ramping? 14:42:56 and, this is bad because playing multiple waves simultaneously is pretty much the reason i made the whole wrapper for waves in the first place :\ 14:43:06 jix: perhaps, i' 14:43:09 ... 14:43:11 If every sound wave that kicks in does so from zero, and fades out at the end, the function as a whole should be close to continuous. 14:43:22 jix: perhaps, i'm doing this with no knowledge about waves in general. 14:44:04 the problem is, the derivatives must also match. 14:44:28 don't know how crucial that is 14:44:49 but, i think it can be done by changing the base.... or volume ramping? whatever 14:45:03 That would be nice, yeah. I'm not seeing how to do that without using fade-in as well as fade-out. Dunno... 14:45:15 well volume ramping is when you end a sample you fade it out and when you start it you fade it in 14:45:25 over a very short duration 14:45:33 => no clicks 14:45:35 the problem is, playing the same wave twice would then create a pause 14:45:45 then you have to crossfade 14:45:54 Playing the same wave twice SHOULD create a pause if they're two notes. 14:46:07 fade the first one out while fading the next one in (when you want no pause at all) 14:46:20 but dbc is right... normally there should be a very very short pause 14:46:29 If they're just one note, extended, it doesn't get faded out and back in. 14:47:18 crossfading might work, although i still think fading is the wimp way to do it ;) 14:47:41 well most software does volume ramping 14:47:48 and no, there shouldn't be a pause, i don't want there to be a pause 14:47:59 i want there to be a pause *optionally* 14:48:44 at least all the trackers out there use volume ramping to avoid clicks.... and the sound chip of the super nintendo does the same 14:48:46 Well, you can put the note ends wherever you like. 14:48:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:49:05 and when you want no pause you don't restart the sample but just change the frequency that gives you no gap too 14:49:09 the player should be able to achieve 100% legato 14:49:39 the problem is you can give it any function, not just sines 14:49:50 hmm 14:49:51 Fade it out after the next one has already started. Or yeah, crossfade. Hell, if you wanted to you could have the second note start to fade out after the first one has already faded all the way in. Probably sound a little odd, but that'd be almost like an anti-pause. 14:49:52 well most software works with samples that's like any function 14:50:14 second <-> first. Sorry. 14:51:20 and when you want no pause you don't restart the sample but just change the frequency that gives you no gap too <<< this was what i was doing originally 14:51:23 i mean, was gonna do 14:51:30 Other thing as I say is what about timbre? Are you going to add overtones and things to get away from the "pure beep" sound. 14:51:40 oklopol: if you do it right it doesn't produce clicks 14:51:57 but, indeed, the actual wave functions themselves can easily leave their current value the same and just change frequency 14:52:33 i was trying to do that for the actual compound wave at once by traversing it forward. 14:52:55 dbc: yeah, was gonna add stuff like that 14:53:09 by making better waves 14:54:12 One more thing. Just incidentally. The ".au" sound format is very simple--you just have to add a 24-byte header, as I recall. 14:54:23 and then raw data? 14:54:27 Yeah. 14:54:32 .wav needs about 80 bytes 14:54:40 Just in case you want to output a file format that things will know what the hell it is. 14:55:05 Ah. 14:55:09 i think wav is supported more widely 14:55:13 Probably. 14:55:28 a wav is nice to create... but hell to play. 14:55:31 80 bytes of what? 14:55:40 ummm, well, crap 14:55:44 Ah. 14:56:11 i don't remember, read part of the spec when i was little, and wrote a c program to make random sounds 14:56:25 little... prolly older than half the people in here :\ 14:56:27 Does it say "Copyright Bill Gates" as part of it? 14:56:35 hehe 14:56:50 and... i've used the c program as the base of all my later wav things :D 14:57:02 have no idea what the bytes mean, and zero care 14:59:45 i also tried making a midi file back then, 7F's were so hard to understand i failed to understand the format well enough to make anything more complex than a piano roll where notes were left on forever :P 14:59:54 back then == the same afternoon 15:00:24 i *might* just be able to conquer midis now, if i tried 15:00:45 although, dunno how that would help. 15:01:15 since i'll wanna make my own timbre anyway 15:01:18 or "tone" 15:19:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:20:33 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 15:28:02 -!- complexity has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox 2.0.0.11/2007112718]"). 17:04:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:26:02 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:42:52 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:49:50 -!- helios24 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:59:47 -!- helios24 has joined. 18:06:32 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:17:06 -!- oklopol has joined. 18:38:31 -!- RedDak has joined. 19:04:28 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:27:41 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p526564465.txt i have no idea what happened, but i have a new player :\ 19:28:06 nifty? 19:28:32 no 19:28:50 but the format is quick for writing random riffs :D 19:29:16 a-z0-9A-Z for notes, in that order, 0 being 440 hz 19:29:33 #(some float) specifies speed 19:29:41 not bad 19:30:14 #1 is 4 notes a second, 0.5 is 8 notes etc 19:33:31 ah 19:34:43 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p116211461.txt xD 19:34:47 i'm such a fucking mozart. 19:35:13 i want someway to multiply in the code itself... and make that tc 8DD 19:37:09 oh good lord 19:37:35 a musical programming language 19:37:54 there's one where music *is* the language 19:38:09 but haven't seen (a good) one for actual creation of music 19:38:29 i'm totally addicted to composing on that now xD 19:38:35 guess i'll cook a bit more 19:50:10 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:27:36 -!- RedDak has joined. 20:33:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 20:47:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 20:47:48 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:59:24 -!- cherez has quit ("Leaving."). 21:00:47 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:14:16 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 21:15:20 * Slereah finished his 99 bottles of beer. 21:15:23 http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/99Turingprog4.txt 21:15:39 The interpreter being thar : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/turingprog2.py 21:16:18 See if you can spot the many traces of lazyness and of abandonned sections of code that I forgot to remove! 22:12:59 * Slereah finished his 99 bottles of beer. 22:12:59 HEREITs ojn teh webhttp://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/99Turingprog4.txt 22:12:59 ta;; iNTRpertre benig here:--~~> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/turingprog2.py 22:12:59 so youlooka t lazyness n abnondnd skt*zzzzzzzzzzzzzz* 22:21:54 -!- miiro has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:24:03 -!- miiro has joined. 22:46:04 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:53:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Who keeps reincarnating sliced bread?!"). 23:06:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:14:31 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 23:16:24 -!- miiro has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:26:50 -!- miiro has joined. 23:41:23 -!- miiro has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:42:29 -!- miiro has joined. 23:42:30 -!- miiro has left (?). 23:42:30 -!- miiro has joined. 2007-12-14: 00:09:51 -!- faxathisia has joined. 00:25:43 oklopol...your last paste, which is just of the song part, won't work when incorporated into the previous paste. Traceback (most recent call last): 00:25:43 File "p526564465.txt", line 61, in 00:25:43 song=song_parse("#0.33") 00:25:43 File "p526564465.txt", line 55, in song_parse 00:25:43 while raw[j]=="." or raw[j].isdigit(): 00:25:45 IndexError: string index out of range 00:29:19 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 01:06:46 oerjan: I'm told this will make your head explode: 01:06:49 Actually, now that it's lazy, it's far more like an extremely impure functional language than it is like an imperative language. 01:06:49 Like Haskell if you were always in a monad. 01:07:06 :) 01:07:26 Oh, I'm sorry, /implode/. 01:09:49 in Haskell, being always in the IO monad destroys laziness 01:10:03 since it is explicitly sequenced 01:10:45 Pretty much. With the exception that arguments to a function will still be resolved lazily, I believe. Yes? 01:11:57 well but then those arguments remain outside the monad, sort of 01:12:25 * pikhq casts "implode head" on oerjan (as an unregulated action) 01:14:00 now to make haskell extremely impure you can toss in unsafeInterleaveIO (in the monad) or unsafePerformIO (even less pure, outside the monad) 01:15:29 I can't even begin to guess what either of those do. 01:16:01 unsafePerformIO completely bypasses the IO encapsulation 01:17:12 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:17:26 it turns an IO action into a pure one. unless you know what you are doing, expect compiler optimizations to mess it up horribly 01:17:40 Heh 01:17:53 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 01:18:02 That is to say, it doesn't actually turn the IO action into a pure one, it just convinces the compiler that it has :P 01:18:02 unsafeInterleaveIO is slightly more well-behaved, if you know what you are doing 01:18:19 heh, i suppose so 01:20:46 it turns an action that immediately runs to produce its result, into a delayed action that is only performed when the result is demanded. this is somewhat safer because it still guarantees the value only triggers the action at most once 01:22:02 That could be useful to see if the code is in fact evaluating something that you think it ought to be evaluating, no? 01:23:16 unsafePerformIO is safe enough for that. i think the trace function uses it. 01:23:34 however, unsafeInterleaveIO is used to implement lazy file reading 01:23:52 Ohhhhhhhhhh. 01:24:19 getContents and friends. 01:58:31 'night, guys 01:58:43 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit. 03:00:40 -!- ReachingFarr has joined. 03:01:51 -!- ReachingFarr has left (?). 04:18:47 -!- cherez has joined. 04:57:39 http://www.nextlevelhardware.com/storage/battleship/ 04:57:46 800 mb/s sustained reads!!! 05:00:06 Cherez, though shalt Plof it up. 05:04:09 i bet you could raid 0 ram 05:04:46 -!- immibis has joined. 05:33:16 -!- xristos has joined. 05:57:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("bus to catch"). 06:17:40 -!- immibis_ has joined. 06:18:52 bsmntbombdood: Hahah, that would be awesome X-D 06:19:16 bsmntbombdood: To suspend, you just cut the power :P 06:32:30 who wants read speeds of 50 gb/s? 06:33:00 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:33:26 the proccessor on the raid card would be bigger than the main proc :D 06:41:33 the card they used costs $850 and only could get 800mb/s 07:25:48 -!- immibis_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:45:48 oklopol: oh, sorry for wrong chan, and thanks anyway ;-> 08:46:25 -!- piksi has left (?). 09:36:21 dbc: oh, right, it won't work, there was a bug in the parser, which i guess i fixed without giving the new source 09:36:47 Yeah. 09:50:56 i guess i'll give the new parser, then, since otherwise my paste has been a waste of bytes 09:53:06 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p122625451.txt 09:53:47 i don't like the new piece, my head started hurting a bit, so i just quickly randomized the end 11:20:33 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:43:20 -!- Maxdamantus has joined. 12:32:50 -!- faxathisia has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:53 -!- Maxdamantus has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:53 -!- xristos has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:55 -!- EgoBot has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:57 -!- cherez has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:58 -!- oklopol has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:58 -!- Slereah has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:58 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:58 -!- GregorR has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:58 -!- cmeme has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:59 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:32:59 -!- johnl has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:33:00 -!- Overand has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:33:23 -!- tejeez has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:33:24 -!- sekhmet has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:33:25 -!- Possum has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:33:31 -!- faxathisia has joined. 12:33:57 -!- Maxdamantus has joined. 12:33:57 -!- xristos has joined. 12:34:22 -!- cherez has joined. 12:34:22 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:34:22 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:34:22 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 12:34:22 -!- GregorR has joined. 12:34:22 -!- cmeme has joined. 12:34:22 -!- Overand has joined. 12:34:22 -!- johnl has joined. 12:34:22 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 12:34:43 -!- tejeez has joined. 12:34:43 -!- sekhmet has joined. 12:34:43 -!- Possum has joined. 12:34:54 -!- EgoBot has joined. 13:15:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:18:53 -!- faxathisia has quit ("Leaving"). 14:04:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:04:04 -!- faxathisia has joined. 15:04:14 -!- jix has joined. 15:29:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:36:37 -!- ehird` has joined. 15:37:06 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:37:31 -!- jix has joined. 15:37:57 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:38:53 -!- ehird` has joined. 15:41:49 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:42:39 -!- ehird` has joined. 15:45:32 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:48:14 -!- ehird` has joined. 16:04:16 -!- ihope_ has joined. 16:19:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:34:55 -!- ais523 has quit (""""). 16:47:18 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:58:35 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 16:59:57 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 17:38:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:08:46 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 19:36:43 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:59:28 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 20:16:40 Hm. Why doesn't bande[t]=sys.stdin.read() work on them snake? 20:16:57 Or bande[t]=sys.stdin.read(1) 20:20:21 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:25:05 damn this album is good 20:25:07 Daft Punk - Alive 2007 20:26:27 -!- Tritonio__ has joined. 20:26:40 -!- Tritonio__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:27:37 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:38:28 i wonder how esoteric i can make the editor i am writing 20:38:38 hey, i could write a dialect of lisp's implementation in c then write it in that 20:38:42 oh. wait. 20:39:17 as long as you don't write a bunch of lisp -in- C .. yuck 20:39:30 * faxathisia (complains about trying to find bugs in emacs..) 20:45:50 I wonder if I could port emacs to Firefox. 20:45:53 Couldn't be that hard. 20:45:59 Harder would be to then port Firefox to emacs. 20:46:25 maybe you could do a firefox self interpreter via emacs? 20:46:48 and calculate it's eigenratio! :D 20:47:45 Eigenratio? 20:49:26 this thing http://eigenratios.blogspot.com/ 20:49:29 it's pretty cool 20:49:39 ooh new posts 20:54:21 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:57:08 oklopol: i bottled my apple wine today 20:58:47 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 21:11:18 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:33:41 Hmm, ContinuousEquation reminds me of a certain idea I had once. 21:36:30 I think it was called Mode. 21:41:27 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:42:21 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 21:55:14 -!- faxathisia has quit ("Leaving"). 22:08:05 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 22:09:09 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:09:36 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 22:11:22 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 22:12:18 hm 22:26:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:29:25 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 22:45:23 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:09:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:15:44 -!- ihope__ has joined. 23:32:26 -!- ihope_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 2007-12-15: 00:05:24 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 00:06:11 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:07:25 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:08:28 -!- ihope__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:31:18 i just had the single-handedly most evil, crappy idea ever 00:31:23 it's also incredibly esoteric 00:31:36 the best part? 'web 2.0' idiots will probably lap it up 00:32:14 an HTTP-based, RESTful, distributed chat protocol. 00:32:23 Mwahahahahaha! Ahahahahahahaha! Eeeaaahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa! 00:33:25 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 00:42:42 Ok, someone at least comment on how silly that is. 00:43:24 -!- xristos has quit ("BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it."). 00:46:25 surely it exists? 00:46:41 perhaps not the "distributed" part 00:48:40 lament: the web is distributed though. that's the key part! i can pass it off as 'web-style'! 00:48:47 ahahahahahaha! 01:00:51 I think that you have earned a criminal sentence. 01:01:36 -!- xristos has joined. 01:02:08 -!- ehird` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:38:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:46:50 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:23:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:24:26 -!- pikhq has joined. 07:11:45 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 07:25:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bye"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:12:40 -!- puzzlet has joined. 09:11:30 -!- xristos has quit (Remote closed the connection). 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nickname [somerandomperson] is already registered" ow 16:39:44 -!- somerandomperson has changed nick to anotherrandomper. 16:39:50 :S 16:40:05 There's plenty of random people! 16:48:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:48:58 hi 16:51:36 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:04:07 * anotherrandomper is away "UT3" Log: on Pager: off 17:04:07 * anotherrandomper is away "UT3" Log: on Pager: off 17:04:20 -!- anotherrandomper has left (?). 17:10:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 17:40:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:03:41 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:17:09 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Connection timed out). 19:06:12 -!- ehird`_ has joined. 19:07:30 -!- ehird`_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:09:28 -!- ehird` has joined. 19:33:24 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:45:31 -!- ehird` has joined. 20:11:48 -!- xristos has joined. 20:19:16 -!- oklopol has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:21:43 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:26:35 -!- oklopol_ has joined. 20:26:48 urxvt: unable to parse color 'Magnolia', using pink instead. 20:26:50 urxvt is so helpful 20:39:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:45:44 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:49:35 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 20:57:14 -!- Jontte has joined. 21:00:21 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:00:22 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 21:03:55 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:20:45 * SimonRC goes 21:26:09 -!- erchird has joined. 21:26:15 so, the question everyone wants the answer to 21:26:26 does running emacs in a terminal with erc count as 'terminal irc'? 21:26:48 * erchird cackles. evilly. 21:27:14 -!- erchird has quit (Client Quit). 22:26:33 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:32:15 -!- jix has joined. 22:39:27 -!- RedDak has joined. 22:57:46 -!- puzzlet has joined. 23:00:18 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 23:08:04 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:08:23 -!- Slereah has joined. 23:17:47 www.vjn.fi/gz/rzff.zip 23:17:54 revolutionary, i say. 23:18:39 -!- oklopol_ has changed nick to oklopol. 23:19:24 wait, what is it 23:19:32 ValueError: chr() arg not in range(256) 23:19:34 i get that 23:20:42 :I 23:20:52 what did you press? 23:21:07 you should only press number keys 23:21:21 you're supposed to count the number of the balls 23:22:41 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:24:56 fixed it, but get segmentation faults every now and then :D 23:25:01 *i get 23:25:26 have no idea why, and don't really feel like debugging 23:28:45 i wish i knew pygame 23:29:35 it's pretty simple 23:29:39 did you try my game? :D 23:29:49 yeah 23:29:50 i suck at it 23:29:54 oh :\ 23:29:59 :) 23:29:59 how much do you get? 23:30:03 eh 23:30:05 i fail most of them 23:30:09 points are calculated amt**2/time 23:30:17 time taken to count 23:30:22 amt is the number of points 23:31:08 i get something near 270, but i get too nervous to play after that :D 23:31:31 i usually get <70 balls correct 23:31:46 after that they start wiggling, since i adjusted for smaller amounts 23:31:59 assumed >30 would be too hard to do fast :O 23:32:14 oklopol: meanwhile, i am getting emacs playing nicely with python to test out pygame 23:32:36 cüwl 23:35:26 damn, i need competition! someone own me at that, please? :P 23:36:27 oklopol: i wonder why i run emacs in a terminal 23:37:01 never having tried it, don't know if that's weird of not 23:50:00 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:50:01 oklopol: where did you learn pygame 23:50:46 heard the name, googled an example, copypasted 23:50:54 then used the documentation 23:51:21 that was a long time ago 23:59:12 what i really want is a pygame wrapper, that is pythonic 2007-12-16: 00:01:04 heh, pygame is a wrapper over sdl 00:01:11 no 00:01:15 pygame is basically an sdl binding 00:01:26 it changes the names of stuff and adds a few extra bits. little more 00:01:55 == wrapper 00:02:33 no 00:02:36 wrapper is thicker 00:02:41 heh 00:02:43 wrapper adds sugar to everything and hides the icky internals 00:02:48 well, i'm no philosopher 00:06:16 pygame is just so low level 00:06:45 is it now? 00:07:57 making games would be so easy if there was a fucking set_pixel built-in... 00:08:12 but noooo 00:11:11 why would you want that? xD 00:12:12 so i could draw my pixelz! 00:13:05 it does have a set pixel anyway 00:14:06 yes, but that's all it should have 00:14:28 since... well, let's face it, it's confusing if there are multiple functions 00:14:29 no? 00:14:42 keep it clean and simple, i say! 00:15:18 def set_pixel(x,y,r,g,b):*(0x80B0F88+(x&y*1024))[3] = r&1|b&2|g&3 00:15:24 that probably works on some obscure, ancient machine 00:15:39 i don't get it 00:15:47 r&1 b&2 g&3 ? :O 00:15:57 that some ancient hindu magic? 00:16:37 it's some random pointer arithmetic crap i pulled out of my ass 00:17:10 rgb=0,0,0 makes that 0, rgb=255,255,255 makes that 3 00:17:25 everything else, makes it 3 00:17:32 err 00:17:34 most everything else. 00:19:17 oklopol: r&1 b&2 g&3 ? :0 // does not parse. ;p 00:19:51 oh, right 00:19:56 r&1 b&2 g&3 ? 0 : O 00:20:02 eh... 00:20:09 r&1|b&2|g&3 ? :O 00:20:11 ... 00:20:15 okay, fuck 00:20:19 r&1|b&2|g&3?0:O 00:22:53 In GNU C, your second one was valid. 00:22:56 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 00:22:56 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:23:10 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 00:24:26 oh? 00:24:29 what's 1 b? 00:24:58 or do you mean my 3rd one 00:25:08 The one with ?: 00:25:24 yarrrrrrr 00:25:35 is it zero then? 00:25:38 foo ?: bar; returns foo if foo is nonzero, bar otherwise. 00:25:44 ah 00:26:48 pikhq: so... did you try my game? :O 00:26:50 i mean 00:26:51 ;) 00:27:11 i need someone to test it goddammit :P 00:27:45 Nope. 00:28:02 I'm trying to obtain comments on my Agoran-Style Initial Ruleset for Nomic. 00:28:23 okay, if i comment randomly, will you take a 2 second glance at my game? 00:28:33 i guess that'd do neither of us any good 00:28:52 LMAO 00:29:34 :D 00:29:39 i guess i should sleep a bit 00:29:56 that's actually a nice game for testing fatigue 00:30:23 i counted 10 objects a second a while ago, now more like 5 :D 00:31:46 i wonder how fast the super-autistics would do that 00:31:52 i mean, the super hero ones 00:32:04 * pikhq , as an autistic, shall tell you 00:32:20 hehe :P 00:32:25 * oklopol knows teh buttons! 00:32:46 Just as soon as my internet connection decides to comply. 00:33:02 it's in python, and needs pygame 00:33:10 And as soon as I emerge pygame. 00:33:15 Though I had that still. . . 00:33:27 s/Thought/Thought/ 00:34:06 395 is my current record, although i'm not sure if the point system makes sense if you play till the higher object amounts 00:37:10 Interesting game. 00:37:19 thx 00:37:30 Got 65, but I only played for a few seconds or so. 00:37:56 you're not supposed to estimate, you get nothing even if you have 1 wrong in the amount 00:38:02 Yeah. 00:38:04 just count 'em 00:38:04 I noticed. 00:38:07 yarr 00:38:30 it gives you more balls if you do good 00:38:34 and less if you do bad 00:38:42 http://pastebin.ca/817990 00:38:48 I got it up to 15. . . 00:38:56 the time down there doesn't really do anything, it's mainly for making it look interactive :D 00:38:59 XD 00:39:00 i mean, the bar 00:39:13 well, if it goes to zero, you fail 00:39:20 but, the next time it'll be slower 00:39:27 so, you can just ignore it. 00:39:55 i do up to 50 quite easily 00:40:06 you know what i want 00:40:12 i want emafox 00:40:15 firefox, running in emacs 00:40:20 yeah, babe, i know what you want 00:40:31 with every single action using as much emacs as possible 00:41:11 * pikhq introduces you to the Conkeror plugin for Firefox 00:41:16 http://conkeror.mozdev.org/ 00:41:52 no 00:41:55 that's not actually emacs 00:42:04 for example, all my lovely .emacs tweaks are not listened to 00:42:10 and various advanced emacs commands aren't there 00:42:21 i want a firefox, running inside emacs, binding to emacs for basically 100% of everything 00:43:50 Fair 'nough. 00:44:11 pikhq: did you stop playing already? 00:44:19 pikhq: it also means you'd be able to do greasemonkey-type stuff with elisp 00:44:34 try counting in groups of 5, in case you aren't yet bored with it 00:44:35 admittedly, elisp is shit, but you can bind languages to it 00:44:52 also, cpscm's author is working on an elisp backend 00:44:58 i'm pretty sure it's possible to do over 20/s 00:44:58 -> programming Emacs in scheme 00:45:47 i'll prolly add a feature that scrolls the points over the screen, since it gets ugly when the points are too close to each other 00:45:55