00:00:14 <tesseracter> hmm, for a moment there it was like being at the guillotine, and lighting the rope that holds the blade up on fire, waiting to see if it burns thru.
00:11:36 <oklopol> Hiato: didn't realize the modulo place is zero after it's nulled.
00:12:51 <oklopol> uhh shouldn't tell where i am in a book in irc, it's kinda disappointing to see how slow i am :)
00:13:18 <oklopol> i've read 47 pages in 5 hours
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01:02:28 <oklopol> ((p1 p2) d) seems to equal (p1 (p2 d)), where application means permutation by a list of indices
01:03:25 <oklopol> seems a bit redundant to reinvent permutations fully just because i'm too lazy to search for them on the web :DD
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02:14:51 <ihope> For definitions of "to" that make sense here.
02:15:32 <oklopol> i was too busy trying to find a pun about "h", but that kinda killed it.
02:15:55 <oklopol> not a pun really... what's the more generic thing...
02:22:03 <oklopol> half the time i ask something on #scheme, an #esotericer answers ;=)
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03:01:35 <CakeProphet> I think I shall make another language like dupdog
03:02:40 <oklopol> (wrong answer, the correct one was of course ":z")
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05:07:54 <GreaseMonkey> my bot will need some testing soon - i'm coding in this game...
05:08:42 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, dude- you should try a game I've been playing with! I just put together a working demo: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/CRPG/
05:24:33 <GreaseMonkey> RodgerTheGreat, i had to manually copy the files
05:24:57 <RodgerTheGreat> that's really strange- didn't sun's site have a self-extractor?
05:25:19 <RodgerTheGreat> I highly encourage you to play with it for a bit- CRPG won't disappoint!
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05:25:52 <veritos> Can someone output this line for me?
05:26:18 <GreaseMonkey> it's got a self-extractor but no automatic *browser install*
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05:27:20 <pikhq> ERROR: NO IRP PERMITTED.
05:27:34 <pikhq> PERMISSION ERROR. DO NOT DO AGAIN.
05:27:55 <pikhq> MURDER IS RECOMMENDED.
05:28:49 <RodgerTheGreat> in all honestly, joining the channel ENTIRELY to try out IRP is what we IRP interpreters refer to as a "dick move"
05:29:49 <pikhq> [Can someone please protest IRP?]
05:35:56 <oklopol> [>+<-[>+<-[>--<->]]<] => [->+<[->+<[->--<]]<] of course.... it's normal to wake up and realize a bf program you saw earlier was not as short as possible?
05:36:37 <oklopol> couldn't go back to sleep without fixing it, and now i have to read the logs
05:38:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I've determined that if i do anything for about 6 hours straight before I go to sleep, I dream about that activity. This has happened with starcraft, tetris, chess, drawing comics, various TV shows and movies and coding.
05:39:14 <oklopol> indeed, but this was quite interesting, i actually didn't give any thought to that program (although i did write the original version), and i was just falling asleep when i realized there's a redundant ">"
05:39:46 <oklopol> was supposed to remove that too
05:39:57 <oklopol> would prolly have come back again soon ;)
05:40:28 <oklopol> starcraft: awesome, tetris: awesome
05:42:13 <oklopol> hmm, i now realize i lay on my bed for about 1.5 hours :D
05:42:20 <RodgerTheGreat> starcraft was indeed awesome. One of my dreams about Quake 2 was pretty fun as well. The tetris one was exhausting.
05:42:42 <oklopol> no wonder i fixed that bf prog.
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11:57:31 <pgimeno> I'm experiencing a database problem with the wiki, could someone please check if it's just me? http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Kayak
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12:46:42 <pgimeno> Hm, the article is not lost: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Kayak&oldid=7834
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14:11:10 <oerjan> nothing wrong with the Kayak page now that i can see
14:11:32 <oerjan> these database problems happen now and then. usually reloading fixes them.
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14:53:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I had another one of those videogame dreams last night. I was playing a game I *knew* was a sequel to gears of war, but it was exactly like Outpost 2 (an RTS) except in a jungle setting. I did this really tough "escort 150 people" mission, and then when I came back to my base it was largely destroyed by an earthquake or something. Then I realized I never had any ConVecs or Earthworkers, and I didn't have a vehicle factory so I was completely screw
14:54:02 <RodgerTheGreat> (convecs are truck-like things used to build structures in Outpost 2)
14:55:57 <RodgerTheGreat> It was still better than dreaming about tetris for 8 hours.
14:58:34 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm still really confused about the gears of war part, because I've never even played that game. :S
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17:15:19 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: you dreamt about tetris fo r8 housr?
17:15:28 <SimonRC> If they become physically disabled they move to work that is not affected by
17:15:28 <SimonRC> such disabilities. At the extreme, those who are completely paralysed can work
17:15:31 <SimonRC> completely using cybernetics. However, many such injuries can be repaired with
17:15:34 <SimonRC> their medical technology or will just heal.
17:17:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno if I dreamt for 8 hours, but I slept for 8 hours and woke up tired as hell. It seemed to go on forever
17:18:07 <oklopol> they say it's physically impossible to dream for that long
17:18:26 <RodgerTheGreat> yes, generally REM sleep occurs for periods of 30 minutes
17:18:29 <oklopol> but i've had dreams where i remember incidents from a whole week just from one night's sleep.-
17:18:32 <SimonRC> psychologically, maybe, but not physically
17:18:56 <oklopol> but, i prolly just make the details up when trying to remember them.
17:19:13 <oklopol> hmm... i doubt psychologically is the right term either
17:19:16 <RodgerTheGreat> my point was that it *felt* like 8 hours, although it's exceedingly unlikely that's how long it actually lasted
17:19:36 <oklopol> indeed, just being anal because it's more tight.
17:20:14 * SimonRC get temporarily confused from the appearance of "anal" and "tight" in the same sentance
17:21:18 <oklopol> that saying doesn't work in writing.
17:24:40 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno, it works alright with appropriate punctuation to convey emphasis and cadence
17:26:48 <RodgerTheGreat> writing leaves out a great deal of the information conveyed in speech, so it's necessary to add those things back in for some phrases to make sense. It's a little like the reason emoticons are useful.
17:29:41 <oklopol> indeed. i prefer the way lojban does this though
17:30:05 <oklopol> that is, integrate stuff like that into the language itself
17:30:14 <ihope> The only word of Lojban I currently remember (other than "lojban") is .ii.
17:31:25 <oklopol> not that i've studied the lang much
17:31:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno, english has adapted to all kinds of syntactic patches and markup pretty well
17:32:12 <RodgerTheGreat> English is an always will be the native tongue of the internet
17:32:33 <RodgerTheGreat> man, I could've tried to play that off as an accent...
17:34:41 <oklopol> english might be the native tongue of the internet out of backwards compatibility, but i won't agree it's a good language still.
17:36:08 <oklopol> (actually, that might not work as well as in the case of oklotalk and graphica, since i geuss i haven't mentioned it much.)
17:36:23 <oklopol> (anyway, it's awesome, awesome i tells ya)
17:38:13 <oklopol> a work-in-progress of course, like i'd ever finish anything.
17:38:17 <ihope> Also, people really should be careful when saying "will always be".
17:38:53 <oklopol> because there's always the idiot who'll say "YOU CAN'T KNOW THAT" ;-)
17:40:27 <ihope> In the future, maybe we'll all speak our own languages and our computers will translate for us.
17:40:29 <RodgerTheGreat> what I meant is "will be for a very long time and the forseeable future"
17:40:51 <ihope> Maybe we'll all speak a language that our computers can actually understand. :-P
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17:41:12 <oklopol> my view of the future is we're all going to die soon and robots take over the world, so hard to have a serious debate on the subject.
17:41:28 <oklopol> and i'm actually being serious here :)
17:41:28 <RodgerTheGreat> I think we should overload the word "always" to mean something more along those lines, because that's generally what people mean when they use it.
17:42:02 <oklopol> we could do what lalna does and just add the module to the lalna wiki
17:42:06 <RodgerTheGreat> depends on if you mean "soon" in a cultural, evolutionary or geological sense
17:42:24 <oklopol> you could allocate the module rtgia and add that term
17:42:39 <oklopol> people who know you could then learn the module rtgia.
17:43:09 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: 15-100 years
17:44:23 <RodgerTheGreat> 100 years, I can see a remote possibility. 15 years, not a fucking chance. I will bet my CS degree that strong AI will not exist in any practical sense within 15 years.
17:45:07 <oklopol> i hope you're right, and i hope i'll feel the same way after really starting to research ai.
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17:46:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I have some experience, and it's one of my areas of interest. I'm not saying I'm not going to try to help strong AI become a reality, but it'd be a tremendous leap from what we can do now.
17:47:18 <oklopol> well, not only that, i also have my own theory why seed ai doesn't work as a concept
17:47:34 <oklopol> so, when i think about it, it seems ridiculous, but it's my underlying view, and that's hard to change :D
17:48:26 <oklopol> the idea that an ai that owns humans at thinking could start reproducing better and better versions of itself
17:48:48 <ihope> Why doesn't it work?
17:48:49 <oklopol> exponentially growing in intelligence
17:48:59 <oklopol> i'll write an article tonight, you can read it.
17:49:19 <oklopol> i don't have much thoughts, and they're not that great, so i'll not use them up here, i need articles you see :)
17:51:30 <RodgerTheGreat> well, here's my logic: Humans have extreme difficulty replicating human intelligence, and I think we can agree that a single human is not capable of this at all. Therefore, if humans create an AI with human intelligence, even IF it has some augmented capabilities (perfect memory, really fast at math, multitasking, etc assuming these are even possible within the AI design we come up with), it won't magically be able to build better AIs
17:52:29 <oklopol> well, that's essentially the idea.
17:52:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I think we'll find that many of the properties that make computers better at what humans are naturally good at will turn out to be a tradeoff sacrificing the things that computers are normally better at
17:54:53 <oklopol> also, a point about what it means to reproduce a human brain in functionality
17:55:22 <oklopol> it's widely believed (TM) that humans were capable of everything they can do today already tens of thousands of years ago
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17:55:51 <oklopol> so, even if a computer would be able to do what a human does, humans might exceed it's capabilities soon.
17:56:52 <oklopol> for example, my father would think there was a bear in my room if i showed him a photoshopped picture about it, a friend of mine would laugh at the picture and point out the parts of the picture where the pictures don't match
17:57:16 <oklopol> bad example, perhaps, but i do believe some capabilities like this are actually lacked by previous generations.
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18:00:00 <oklopol> although, i do believe in a lot of weird things.
18:01:28 <RodgerTheGreat> there's nothing wrong with strange beliefs as long as you have an open mind an you aren't dogmatic about said beliefs
18:02:27 <RodgerTheGreat> I could firmly believe that cats shit candy if you pet them enough, but if I refused to alter my beliefs after being confronted with evidence to the contrary I'd be stupid AND crazy.
18:04:55 <oklopol> a side-note on that, people should be taught math better, people seem to have no capability of changing the environment of logic, that is, you cannot say "let's assume for a while that ..." without being interrupted in case you haven't yet proved what you are assuming is true
18:05:36 <oklopol> while in fact you were never going to, and actually using that as an argument why said thing is in fact *not* true
18:06:21 <oklopol> perhaps it's the lack of first-class truth environments in english
18:07:18 <oklopol> hmm... that's not first class, it's a special environment statement, but it's something, anyway.
18:07:37 <RodgerTheGreat> teaching formal logic is a bit more fundamental than something to be lumped in with mathematics, especially at the age people should be learning these things
18:08:03 <oklopol> i just meant logical thought in general.
18:08:11 <oklopol> guess that shouldn't be called math in this case
18:08:25 <RodgerTheGreat> personally, I'd like to see core curriculum becoming Math, Logic, and Grammar, rather than the "three R's"
18:09:18 <RodgerTheGreat> the three R's come from a cute perversion of the english language.
18:10:01 <RodgerTheGreat> History is something that's easy to learn on your own if you're literate. Math is harder to learn on your own. Therefore, Math is more important in public schools.
18:11:29 <oklopol> yep, i wrote an angry essay on this for school once, the principal wanted to have a talk with me about my *ideas*
18:11:33 <RodgerTheGreat> and if people can reason and debate properly within a logical framework, there's no problem with people learning things like History on their own, because they can identify a reputable source and discard poor reasoning.
18:12:18 <faxlore> Why not make the core curriculum, Untyped, Simply typed and Dependantly typed lambda calculuys
18:12:30 <RodgerTheGreat> Public school should cover fundamental skills and teach people what they need to teach themselves. Universities should then allow people to learn specialized knowledge from experts.
18:12:59 <RodgerTheGreat> faxlore: that's a bit more pedantic and detailed than is necessary for most applications.
18:13:46 <oklopol> in my opinion formal logic should be taught before teaching a child how to read.
18:14:37 <RodgerTheGreat> there's no reason those can't be done at the same time
18:14:39 <faxlore> can I take this opportunity to ask for any suggestions of books/texts on Logic?
18:15:09 <RodgerTheGreat> teach them what logical fallacies are as you're teaching them how to spell their names and tie their shoes
18:15:14 <oklopol> well, true, but i think logic (and even mathematical notation for it) might be easier to learn than reading in general
18:15:27 <oklopol> a child might actually pick up logic fundamentally pretty fast.
18:15:31 <RodgerTheGreat> you'd wind up with a generation of clear thinkers and do the world unmeasurable benefit
18:16:01 <RodgerTheGreat> being able to read and write makes it easier to express concepts to the children, though
18:16:31 <RodgerTheGreat> symbolic notation is much clearer than expressing ideas conversationally, but conversation methods are a good way to *start*
18:17:20 <RodgerTheGreat> not that I'm aware of. I haven't seen Sukoshi around lately.
18:17:46 <RodgerTheGreat> And no offense, but I think she'd be out of your league anyway.
18:17:48 <oklopol> yeah, she seems like a nice catch
18:18:48 <oklopol> i'm actually pretty good at getting chicks irl
18:19:05 <oklopol> they like my weirdness until they get to know me and realize i'm actually that weird.
18:20:28 <oklopol> (but by that time, i have my kid! mwahahaha)
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18:32:16 * sebbu listen to Ayumi Hamasaki - A BEST 2 (BLACK) [2007.02.28] - 12 - HANABI ~episode II~.mp3 [320kbps]
18:32:40 <oklopol> ihope: please add a question mark
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18:49:08 <ihope> Was the correct answer "please add a question mark?"?
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18:50:38 <oklopol> ihope: no, there was no correct answer, but good guess :)
18:51:03 <ihope> I mean, boo! Maybe.
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19:46:39 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: back on the topic of education, I think it'd be excellent if we took steps to identify the learning styles of children at a very young age (auditory, visual, kinesthetic, etc) and then sorted the kids into classes that catered to their best mode of learning. I think it would lead to more efficient teaching, and fewer people frustrated with school because of mismatches
19:48:26 <RodgerTheGreat> For example, I'm an auditory learner- I can soak up information very easily by listening to someone explain it. As a result, lecture-heavy classes are generally easy for me as long as I remain attentive, and I know I need to take more notes in other classes, like mathematics where much of the content is visual rather than verbal.
20:16:26 <oklopol> well, i'm really just bad at learning using my senses
20:18:07 <RodgerTheGreat> well, it's all about tendencies- everyone has a couple strong points that can serve them well if they identify them and learn to make use of them
20:20:11 <oklopol> for me it's more about concentration
20:20:33 <oklopol> i'm generally half-asleep all the time
20:23:10 <RodgerTheGreat> being a proficient computer user involves culturing a very specific kind of ADD.
20:23:35 <ihope> It involves doing what, now?
20:23:52 <RodgerTheGreat> our user interfaces tend to make people task switch a lot
20:24:33 <RodgerTheGreat> Do you ever find yourself switching to an email client for a few seconds to check your mail right in the middle of reading a webpage, or similar?
20:25:01 <RodgerTheGreat> and being a good programmer pretty much requires a person to hyper-focus on a task for long periods of time.
20:27:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I find that it takes a lot of practice to embrace multitasking during some activities, and then "switch it off" to concentrate on a single task
20:30:20 <RodgerTheGreat> It lends me to believe that user interface design could benefit from this knowledge by catering to these two classes of activities.
20:31:42 <RodgerTheGreat> IDEs that are fullscreened with a minimum of visual elements to distract one from coding, with just a clock and a little tab for controlling background music playlists perhaps
20:32:48 <RodgerTheGreat> in general trying to make application suites that streamline an entire workflow into a single app and provide everything you want without having to switch programs or return to the desktop
20:33:35 <RodgerTheGreat> it'd be like the exact opposite of the Unix philosophy of having many small tools that each do a specific thing
20:34:37 <RodgerTheGreat> the problem is, there's a very fine line between doing everything a user needs and being bloated
20:40:25 <oklopol> well, the solution i've been thinking is to get a separate computer with nothing but coding facilities.
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21:13:54 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: shouldn't you consider the unix environment to be a single IDE?
21:14:00 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: see also colorForth
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23:15:06 <oklopol> hmm, took me about 10 minutes to write a function to generically run a genetic algo in python
23:15:12 <oklopol> just did the same in scheme
23:30:45 <AnMaster> you are less experienced with scheme?
23:31:17 <oklopol> you supply a mutation function and a pool of data
23:31:29 <AnMaster> ok, go ahead, but probably over my head
23:31:54 <oklopol> it then scores every object in the pool
23:31:58 <oklopol> removes the ones that suck
23:32:14 <oklopol> and mutates the good objects with each other to get the pool full
23:33:07 <oklopol> well, to be fully honest, the actual function to do that did not take 8 hours, more like 3
23:33:24 <oklopol> they are not exactly the same
23:33:50 <faxlore> That makes it less of a good comparison
23:33:57 <oklopol> the python one has a scripting language (currently utterly useless one) that does the scoring of an entry
23:34:16 <oklopol> and the scheme one does permutation
23:34:42 <oklopol> i can upload the functions to do the evolution ofc, those are almost the same i think
23:34:54 <oklopol> AnMaster: never done anything programmingish in bash
23:39:24 <oklopol> hmm... the scheme one is a bit hard to get out of context copypastewise, since the functions are all at random locations :D
23:44:21 <oklopol> i'll just paste the whole thing...
23:45:38 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p116661161.txt
23:46:45 <oklopol> i love it how whitespaceless scheme forms those weird cloud thingies
23:47:09 <oklopol> the part after make-pool is my favorite
23:48:44 <oklopol> my original idea was to solve my rubik's cube, but i'm having a hard time getting my schemes right
23:49:22 <oklopol> in python, i'd most likely have a solution already...
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