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11:11:40 <Slereah> http://rendell-attic.org/gol/turing_js_r.gif
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13:52:51 <AnMaster> I found this, rather interesting: gopher://blubb.ch/11/software/fbf
13:53:56 <Slereah> physics which states that it is
13:53:56 <Slereah> physically impossible to detect a particle without affecting it in
13:53:58 <Asztal> (wow, people still uses gopher: ?)
13:54:15 <Slereah> Copypasta by mistakes it seems
13:57:49 <ais523> wow, I'm glad that gopher: is still alive
13:58:38 <ais523> but that looks like a procedural language, not a functional one
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15:18:17 <RodgerTheGreat> argh. Could somebody explain how to access a gopher file via telnet? I got as far as connecting on port 70.
15:23:59 <RodgerTheGreat> and here's a pastebin of the FBF source, if anyone is curious and doesn't have a gopher client
15:28:27 <ais523> Firefox seems to be able to handle gopher: just fine
15:29:00 <RodgerTheGreat> in retrospect, it probably would've been easier to open the page on my linux machine
15:40:54 <pikhq> Everyone with Firefox can do Gopher. ;)
15:41:58 <RodgerTheGreat> but as I said, it would've been easier just to use my linux box
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15:43:24 <pikhq> Yeah, Firefox on the Mac is crap.
15:50:07 <ehird`> and safari is awesome enough anyway, at least with saft etc
15:50:12 <ehird`> haven't tried safari 3 though
15:50:15 <ehird`> i like the brushed metal :P
15:51:14 <pikhq> So, I'm waiting on KDE 4.1.
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15:51:42 <pikhq> Granted, I could *use* KDE 4.0 (had it installed a couple of days ago), but it's still a fairly rough release.
15:51:52 <RodgerTheGreat> and I'm a mac user, so I'm going to continue to endure incredibly half-assed ports of linux software whenever I don't feel like spending money.
15:52:12 <pikhq> KDE is going to make the ports less half-assed.
15:52:26 <pikhq> Currently, all KDE programs run as native Cocoa apps.
15:52:49 <pikhq> (will be officially supported with KDE 4.1)
15:52:52 <RodgerTheGreat> the "native" GTK port seems like it has more promise, but it isn't anywhere close to being usable.
15:54:30 * pikhq tries to find screenshots
15:54:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I really don't think simply having native GUI toolkits is going to solve the main problems, though- so many of the reasons linux ports suck are because they don't follow interface conventions properly (meaning Apple HIG)
15:55:38 <RodgerTheGreat> "The user interface features, behaviors, and appearances deliver a well-organized and cohesive user experience available to all applications developed for Mac OS X."
15:55:49 <pikhq> That's the reason they don't officially support KDE on Mac OS X yet.
15:55:55 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: the best kind of app is a Qt app developed on OS X
15:56:15 <ehird`> it'll be one of the best-designed apps on linux and windows, and fit right into os x
15:56:21 <RodgerTheGreat> the best kind of app is an app with the frontend rewritten from scratch for OSX.
15:56:27 <ehird`> pikhq: I tried to compile KDE3 with Qt-mac before
15:56:39 <ehird`> too many patches though
15:56:50 <ehird`> someone else got it working though
15:57:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I couldn't believe it when I saw VLC running on windows- it's actually missing many features from the OSX version
15:57:47 <pikhq> I can understand complaining about GTK ports. . .
15:57:58 <pikhq> Frankly, GTK is not designed with cross-platform operation in mind.
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15:58:57 <pikhq> Should you want to *try* the KDE ports, you can hit http://techbase.kde.org/index.php?title=Projects/KDE_on_Mac_OS_X .
15:59:18 <pikhq> Torrent the .dmg if you care.
15:59:20 <ehird`_> what was the last thing you heard from me
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15:59:31 <pikhq> "someone else got it working though"
15:59:39 <ehird> good that's the last thing i said
16:00:02 <RodgerTheGreat> but honestly, I don't think anyone has any business "porting" an app to OSX without reading through this: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGIntro/chapter_1_section_1.html
16:00:41 <ehird> RodgerTheGreat: you can get off your os x high horse
16:00:52 <ehird> the apps work, don't they? the system as a whole is more elegant and usable than others, no?
16:01:04 <ehird> so use the non-OSXy port until a more OSXy one is made.
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16:08:22 <ais523> and I am on my own computer now
16:08:26 <ehird> ais523: thank gawd
16:08:33 <ais523> and kill your ghost, it's screwing up my tab-complete
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16:09:02 <ehird> anyway, i had an idea for an underload compiler but it would be kinda slow
16:09:20 <ais523> well, you could always compile via Underload
16:09:26 <RodgerTheGreat> and on a semi-unrelated note, it would appear that NBC is now Apple's bitch:
16:09:28 <RodgerTheGreat> ""'We've said all along that we admire Apple, that we want to be in business with Apple.' He then unexpectedly adds, 'We're great fans of Steve Jobs.' No telling what has caused the turnabout. Perhaps the writers strike gave both parties time to reflect on their mounting lost revenue.""
16:09:37 <ais523> I figured out how to compile everything except c.
16:09:43 <ehird> ais523: a way to make d work
16:09:48 <ais523> I have one of those already
16:09:54 <ehird> every argument to EVERYTHING is a thunk
16:10:06 <ehird> i.e. you pass a goto ID, just like the underload compiler..
16:10:13 <ehird> ...compiled stuff for a...
16:10:19 <ehird> CALLIFY(thunky_thunk);
16:10:25 <ehird> ...compiled stuff for b...
16:10:37 <ehird> so, d works just by wrapping that thunk in a structure
16:10:43 <ehird> but ofc it could be slow.
16:10:52 <ehird> also obviously you need to manage your own call stack, for c
16:10:57 <ais523> that's basically how the Underload version works
16:11:07 <ais523> which I wrote completely and then deleted by mistake
16:11:16 <ais523> but could rewrite without too much trouble
16:11:30 <ais523> instead of writing s as s, it's written as ((^s))
16:12:01 <ais523> and `a`bc is (((^c))((^b))^^)((^a))^^
16:12:14 <ehird> exactly, it will just be very inefficient
16:12:14 <ais523> d is the only combinator that doesn't start with ^ to evaluate its argument
16:12:24 <ais523> but it can be optimised by quite a lot
16:12:29 <ehird> Of course, if we compiled to haskell this would be trivial :)
16:12:38 <ehird> you wouldn't have to do anything but:
16:13:05 <ais523> forcing eager evaluation would be the problem there
16:13:17 <ais523> and then not-forcing again when d was used
16:14:22 <ehird> ais523: hm yes unlambda is eager
16:14:32 <ehird> maybe we should concentrate on the underload compiler. for now.
16:14:37 <ehird> ais523: do you have rev. 18?
16:16:20 <ehird> ais523: do you grok haskell? :-)
16:16:32 <ais523> I can understand it, with some thought
16:16:36 <ais523> I'm not fast at reading it
16:16:45 <ais523> and I understand the basics behind the way it works
16:16:52 <ais523> including monads and the basics of the type system
16:17:03 <ehird> can you write it, though?
16:17:17 <ais523> because I don't know most of the built in operators and libraries
16:18:54 <ehird> well let me analyze my scheme program
16:19:26 <ehird> ais523: i'll use an awful lot of pattern matching, quite a bit of string concatentation, and maybe a state monad
16:19:40 <ais523> pattern matching I'm used to
16:22:43 <ehird> ais523: hm, maybe haskell isn't the best
16:22:49 <ehird> but this would be ugly in an imperative language
16:22:54 <ehird> especially with optimization
16:23:58 <ehird> ais523: Obviously it should be written in underload
16:26:42 <ais523> or maybe in GolfScript?
16:26:50 <ais523> that's sort of a wimpmode for Underload
16:29:51 <ehird> ais523: parsing underload is funny
16:29:58 <ehird> because of having to retain strings of everything
16:35:25 <ais523> I want to change the output rules for the next version
16:35:30 <ais523> they interfere too much with optimisers
16:35:51 <ais523> because it's hard to optimise a string when you don't know if it might have to be output literally
16:36:09 <ehird> ais523: anyway, the optimization will be easy: we never remove ()s or anything like that, and we only change the [UL] not the String
16:37:08 <ais523> I was thinking of my optimising interpreter entered into Anarchy Golf
16:37:22 <ais523> which does optimise inside strings, luckily not affecting the output of the problem
16:39:09 <ehird> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Minimal+scheme+interpreter
16:39:17 <ehird> they are all cheats, obviously
16:39:24 <ehird> they'd ghave to be
16:39:25 <ehird> my example is wrong
16:41:26 <ais523> unless they automatically correct mismatched parens
16:42:04 <ais523> a few of the Underload ones look genuine, though
16:42:46 <ehird> they can't correct mismatched parens
16:42:50 <ehird> the form is like this:
16:44:11 <ais523> why is there no special variable in Perl that's 1 by default, read-write, and safely changeable?
16:44:27 <ehird> because it's not that esoteric
16:44:47 <ais523> in GolfScript I could just assign to 1 as long as I didn't use it later in the program
16:47:58 <ehird> ais523: parsing underload is hsdfhsdkjhsdfjksdf
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17:06:32 <ehird> i'm starting to wonder if haskell is the best language for this :P
17:06:44 <ais523> it's not usually at all clear what the best language is
17:06:53 <ais523> and different people use different languages by default
17:08:09 <ehird> ais523: what would your preferred language be for impl the compiler?
17:08:27 <ais523> I tend to use Perl by default
17:08:34 <ais523> but I'm not sure whether it would be a good choice here
17:08:46 <ais523> I'd most likely end up writing the whole thing as one massive regexp...
17:08:58 <ais523> BTW, Perl5.10 has recursive regexps, which is great
17:09:12 <ehird> ais523: that does not bode well for optimization
17:09:18 <ehird> also, we have to do () unrolling
17:10:06 <ais523> C parsers do that sort of thing naturally, but on the other hand they tend to be large and unwieldy to start with
17:10:42 <ehird> yeah i am NOT doing c
17:11:01 <ais523> maybe one solution in any language would be to repeatedly extract inner ()s to the end of the list, replacing them with a number
17:11:25 <ais523> would change to (a(b<1>d(e)f))>1(c)
17:11:27 <ehird> i'm ofc aware how to do it
17:11:43 <ais523> that solution would be easy with regexen
17:12:22 <ais523> grr... why doesn't Perl allow @_--?
17:12:22 <ehird> but for the optimization
17:12:26 <ais523> it has an obvious meaning
17:12:27 <ehird> so i don't think perl is a good idea
17:12:33 <ais523> what sort of optimisations are you talking about?
17:13:36 <ehird> things that make the generated c code less dumb
17:13:36 <oklopol> regexen? :D is that the official plural?
17:13:48 <oklopol> i've used that, but most say regexes
17:13:53 <ais523> the Underload optimisations I did were a case of partially parsing the program, executing all operations but : and S, and even inside quoted strings
17:13:53 <ais523> and also some micro-optimisations like :~ to : and deleting ~~
17:13:54 <ais523> depends on who you ask
17:14:09 <ais523> to me, regexes sounds too much like the plural of regexe
17:14:16 <ais523> I'm happy with regexps, though
17:17:36 <ehird> i used to have crazy zsh-fu:
17:17:37 <ehird> precmd() { print -Pn "\e]0;%n@%m:%~\a" }
17:17:37 <ehird> export PS1=$(print "%{\e[33m%}")"[%n:%~] %#"$(print "%{\e[0m%}")" "
17:18:25 <ais523> although zsh looks interesting as well
17:18:43 <ais523> that's mostly just ANSI escapes, though, isn't it, rather than anything shell-specific?
17:19:16 <ehird> and ESPECIALLY the crazy stuff i do with $(...) in there
17:19:47 <ais523> $(...) is also accepted by bash
17:19:52 <ehird> ais523: here's what happens when i run that export PS1= line in bash
17:19:53 <ehird> bash: print: command not found
17:19:53 <ehird> bash: print: command not found
17:19:54 <ais523> it might do something different, though, for all I know
17:20:03 <ehird> ais523: its use there is zsh-specific
17:20:15 <ehird> basically, the fisrt line gives me a line like:
17:20:20 <ehird> ehird@hostname:dir
17:20:26 <ehird> but i get ~/... for home dirs
17:20:37 <ehird> but it works robustly
17:20:43 <ehird> and the second gives me a prompt like this:
17:23:21 <ais523> let me rewrite the Underload optimiser
17:23:37 <ais523> I'll write it in Perl, the same as the version I deleted by mistake
17:23:46 <ais523> more to have something to work from than to make it part of the project
17:23:56 <ais523> it was nothing but s/// commands anyway
17:24:03 <ais523> what else would you expect me to write it in?
17:24:32 <ais523> that has much the same regex syntax
17:26:07 <ais523> the optimising-inside-strings thing was too much of a problem anyway
17:26:15 <ais523> the idea is that you map (...)! to nothing
17:26:26 <ais523> and (..a..)(..b..)~ to (..b..)(..a..)
17:26:34 <ais523> and so on for all the commands except : and S
17:26:47 <ais523> that optimised generated code to quite an extent
17:26:56 <ehird> generated code isn't the focus
17:27:12 <ais523> otherwise, run-length encoding helps a lot with Church numerals
17:27:34 <ais523> I've written too many programs along the lines of (::::::::::::::::****************)((a)S)~^^
17:28:01 <ehird> on a completely unrelated note I need to get a decent irc client
17:28:37 <ais523> maybe one that responds to ctcp version requests?
17:28:52 <ehird> i wasn't identified.
17:28:57 <ehird> also, it's Linkinus
17:29:04 <ehird> but the ui is kinda grating on me
17:29:47 <ais523> I'm using Konversation at the moment, purely because it was the only one that came with Ubuntu that I could figure out how to use
17:30:20 <ehird> konversation is really nice
17:30:25 <ehird> i wonder if it works on os x nowadays
17:31:17 <ais523> do KDE apps work on OSX in general?
17:31:25 <ehird> because KDE does not like qt-mac, much
17:31:31 <ehird> but it's not fun.. you have to patch it to hell
17:31:39 <ehird> i got bored when i tried.
17:31:57 <ehird> Let me find the page of someone who manaed
17:32:22 <ehird> http://www.khaitu.com/projects.php?item=23
17:32:26 <ehird> but its not native looking
17:33:05 <ehird> http://www.khaitu.com/public/kdelibs.patch
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17:37:04 <ais523> sorry about that, my wireless connection dropped and my IRC client got confused
17:38:13 <ehird> ais523: really i ought to just write my own
17:38:58 <ais523> it would be nice to have a nice portable one written in sh, dd, and netcat
17:39:26 <ais523> or make logical sense?
17:39:32 <ehird> no, but it REALLY FUCKING SHOULD
17:39:39 <ehird> it's like, the best idea ever
17:39:45 <ehird> there is nothing more for humans to accomplish
17:43:12 <ehird> what language should the compiler be written in :P
17:43:14 <ehird> what language should the compiler be written in :P
17:43:24 <ais523> that's not at all an easy question
17:43:33 <ais523> especially as our programming styles are so different
17:43:42 <ehird> argh stupid linkinus
17:43:44 <ais523> so we'd better pick an esolang that neither of us are comfortable with
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17:48:17 <ehird> slereah_ keeps dying
17:50:10 * ais523 is working on a Codegolf program
17:51:37 <ehird> codegolf.com = :(, it's not as fun as anarchy golf
17:51:42 <ais523> I'm not nearly as good as the regulars
17:51:55 <ais523> it's hard to find a balance
17:52:06 <ais523> anarchy golf is too prone to cheats and errors in the questions
17:52:21 <ais523> but codegolf is too slow-moving and you never get to see the winning entries
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17:59:30 <ais523> one thing I like about codegolf is that you can see your own previous entries
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18:01:52 <ehird> ais523: anarchy golf's cheats explicitly mark themselves
18:02:40 <ais523> but there should be separate leaderboards for cheats and noncheats
18:03:11 <ais523> wow, I just had a great idea for a golfing challenge
18:03:24 <ais523> but it couldn't be entered into Anarchy Golf
18:03:40 <ais523> write a program that given three sets of inputs and outputs, generate a program that maps those inputs to those outputs
18:04:01 <ais523> preferably with some rule to ensure that the /output/ is small as well as the original program...
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18:20:21 <ehird_> ais523: um that's trivial
18:20:37 <ehird_> a=>x,b=>y,c=>z -> s/a/x/, s/b/y/, s/c/z/
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18:21:02 <ais523> that's why you'd have to try to minimise the size of the output program
18:21:18 <ais523> maybe by ruling that the output has to be smaller than the total size of all the input
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18:34:38 <ehird_> ais523: so what language would you use for the compiler that isn't perl? :P (i ought to write a program to pedantically refine my questions)
18:34:57 <ais523> most languages would likely work
18:35:09 <ais523> but thinking of one in particular is hard
18:35:32 <ais523> it might even be possible to do it in a language like sed
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18:37:19 <asiekierka> Is any GBA/NDS programmer here right now?
18:38:45 <ais523> I don't understand the acronym
18:39:17 <ehird_> ais523: sure but its not convenient
18:39:45 <ais523> only because sed doesn't do arithmetic
18:42:01 <ehird_> asiekierka: because this is so relevant to esoteric programming
18:42:31 <ehird_> ais523: Game Boy Advance / Nintendo DS
18:42:39 <ais523> I've never programmed for them
18:42:43 <ais523> although I have played them
18:42:51 <ais523> I don't know if it's possible to program them legally
18:42:59 <ais523> and I wouldn't do it illegally
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18:50:32 <Asztal> ais523: as far as I know, it's quite legal to do so using something like the CycloDS with devkitpro :)
18:50:49 <ais523> thanks for that advice
18:51:43 <ehird_> i have a DS with various stuff for running homebrew. never got 'round to really doing the homebrew stuff
18:52:24 <ehird_> though i love my 'GBA Movie player' hacked for the purposes of taking a flash card and providing it in a form readable by the MAX Media Player.. the GBA movie player having hacked-upfrlashed
18:52:40 <ehird_> it's not a very 'clean' solution..
19:02:25 <ais523> one nice golfing trick I discovered:
19:02:42 <ais523> if you need to initialise a variable to a high number as a loop counter, and don't care which one, use $$
19:02:52 <ais523> (i.e. current process's PID)
19:02:57 <ais523> it's generally well over 1000
19:04:42 <ehird_> some programs used that for the counter prog.
19:04:55 <ehird_> shortest was this iirc:
19:06:12 <ehird_> print 1+$$%3; # a robust solution
19:06:20 <ehird_> cycles 1,2,3,1,2,3,...
19:08:16 <ais523> that was used as randomisation, though, rather than just initialising a loop counter
19:11:18 <ehird_> barring really weird things happenin
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19:18:02 <ais523> you aren't going to ask me what language you want to write the compiler in again, are you?
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19:53:29 * Asztal guesses at modulo 53 arirthmetic
19:54:08 <oklopol> "55" = "5 + 5" = "10", 10_2 = 2_10, 2 + 2 = 4?
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20:01:07 <ehird> oklopol: oklo/msgping
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20:31:36 <adu> hi oklopol
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20:55:03 <ehird> oklopol: you appeared again
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21:28:46 <oklopol> well i'm never physically gone, just thinking.
21:29:15 <oerjan> don't stop thinking! remember descartes
21:29:58 <ehird> a sign with a D on it saying 'I think therefore I am'
21:30:02 <ehird> now: go forth, and laugh
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22:50:54 <Slereah> {{},{{}},{{},{{}}},{{},{{}},{{},{{}}}},{{},{{}},{{},{{}}},{{},{{}},{{},{{}}}}}}
23:00:29 <ehird> ^^ most confusing conversation ever ^^
23:00:56 <Slereah> I hope I didn't just sold you my sister or something.
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23:38:38 <ehird> [23:37:34] <Windrose> ehird: COBOL is a bad idea? You have an objective reason for that as well?
23:38:48 <ehird> the second-best place for esoteric programmers, apart from #esoteric
23:40:41 <oerjan> i vaguely recall even COBOL is objective these days.