00:00:46 <ehird> sudo apt-get install sbcl
00:00:58 <ehird> enter a 'pass~worde', and sit patiently
00:01:44 <Slereah> The enchantment is working.
00:02:28 <ehird> Slereah: You are installing a compiler for the ancient~magick arts of Lithp, by the way.
00:03:45 <ehird> No. It's a language with a lot of parentheses.
00:03:59 <ehird> You may have heard of it before ;)
00:07:04 <ehird> Slereah: Installed?
00:08:55 <ehird> Slereah: run 'sbcl'
00:09:02 <ehird> check that it prints out the result correctly
00:09:34 <Slereah> 5. Is that correct? I don't have my calculator at hand.
00:15:23 <ehird> Slereah: just getting a nice program runner
00:18:47 <ehird> Slereah: won't be long ;)
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00:20:52 <ehird> Slereah: almost...
00:21:01 <ehird> lisp is more suited to the REPL way, heh
00:21:05 <ehird> i'm making it so you can do:
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00:33:56 <ehird> Slereah: almost ready
00:38:23 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
00:40:51 <ehird> make a new directory
00:41:24 <ehird> then, Slereah, download these files to these names in that dir:
00:41:26 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/nva8Do66.txt qq.lisp
00:41:39 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/ssdUo542.txt qq.asd
00:41:52 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/APz2d592.txt run.lisp
00:41:58 <ehird> Slereah: Then, when you've done that, do:
00:42:08 <ehird> And you're ready to go. To run a qq program, just do:
00:42:15 <ehird> ./run.lisp prog.qq
00:43:03 <Slereah> Heh. I usually do my interpreters in a copypasta form.
00:44:11 <ehird> Slereah: But, got all that?
00:44:45 <ehird> Did you do the chmod?
00:45:20 <ehird> Lets you run it as an executable
00:45:34 <ehird> OK, put 0 7(6) in a file - say foo.qq
00:45:44 <ehird> and enter a character, and hit enter
00:45:57 <ehird> it should say that character (though bumped before your prompt because it does not output a newline)
00:46:17 <Slereah> component :ITERATE not found, required by #<SYSTEM "qq" {AAAE8F1}>
00:47:53 <ehird> (require 'asdf) (require 'asdf-install) (asdf-install:install :iterate)
00:48:04 <ehird> answer 2 to the first question, and 0 to the second
00:48:09 <ehird> then, when it's done, exit sbcl
00:52:01 <ehird> Slereah: is it working now?
00:52:59 <ehird> oerjan: i released a qq interpreter
00:53:06 <ehird> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/bin/1201049292-qq-v1_0.tar.gz and check the README
00:53:12 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Huh.png
00:53:16 <ehird> i forgot the readme
00:53:42 <ehird> Slereah: bizzare. try in another dir
00:53:44 <ehird> oerjan: reuploading
00:54:28 <ehird> oerjan: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/bin/1201049491-qq-v1_0.tar.gz
00:54:30 <ehird> Slereah: try with http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/bin/1201049491-qq-v1_0.tar.gz
00:54:46 <ehird> oerjan: (will you? :P)
01:05:57 <ehird> pikhq, aer you alive? oklopol? :P
01:06:32 <Slereah> I'm writing sum article for Lazy Bird.
01:06:56 <ehird> Slereah: WELL TEST THE NEW INTERP :P
01:07:00 <ehird> And try in a different directory
01:08:24 <ehird> pikhq: HOW CAN YOU SAY NOPE IN REPLY TO THAT
01:08:25 <ehird> that makes no sense
01:09:27 <ehird> pikhq: Download http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/bin/1201049491-qq-v1_0.tar.gz and read the README :P
01:09:32 <ehird> Don't worry it's free software ;)
01:10:29 <Slereah> Well, I was about to give you lots of money, but...
01:13:52 <Asztal> don't worry, you can still buy it as part of my proprietary enterprise turnkey solution.
01:20:24 <Slereah> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy_Bird
01:22:39 <ehird> Slereah: lazy evaluation + IO = you need monads
01:23:49 <ehird> this also solves your _ problem
01:24:46 <Slereah> I tried to read them monads.
01:26:54 <ehird> no, but you'll get it eventualy
01:27:09 <oerjan> heh, we edited simultaneously and had an identical fix
01:27:14 <ehird> and you'll have the most bloated type system in a combinator language as well as a nice way to do IO and state
01:27:20 <ehird> oerjan: hey! you! try my qq interp!
01:28:04 * Slereah does not know type system :(
01:28:13 <Slereah> Apart from the one in the Principia Mathematica
01:28:20 <Slereah> But I assume it isn't that helpful
01:28:34 <oerjan> btw is there any way to cause a currying integer to end up in a list?
01:28:50 <oerjan> otherwise they might be hard to duplicate
01:29:03 <ehird> oerjan: please try it :(
01:29:32 <Slereah> Damn, I suck at English apparently.
01:29:57 <ehird> oerjan: awww come on
01:31:23 <oerjan> er it requires a _specific_ CL interpreter?
01:32:05 <oerjan> nvg has cmucl which knowing them is probably old as sin
01:32:23 <ehird> oerjan: run.lisp won't work
01:32:44 <ehird> *invoke-debugger-hook* and similar should be ok
01:32:48 <ehird> (locally (declare (sb-ext:muffle-conditions style-warning))
01:32:52 <ehird> you'll definately have to change that
01:33:01 <ehird> posix-argv might have to change too
01:33:06 <ehird> and SBCL is a compiler
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01:38:11 <ehird> read the README then
01:38:25 <ehird> you have to do a fancy dance.
01:40:24 <ehird> oerjan: is it going OK?
01:42:27 <oerjan> catching up with #haskell
01:42:45 <oerjan> although my naive attempt gave "Illegal variable name."
01:42:56 <ehird> naive attempt at what?
01:43:16 <oerjan> ./run.lisp prog.qq without any dance
01:43:24 <oerjan> (i did make a prog.qq)
01:43:38 <ehird> also, make sure prog.qq is the example from the esolangs wiki, just to be sure
01:45:24 <oerjan> typing sbcl gives an error message (after a long banner)
01:45:39 <oerjan> could not open file ""
01:46:37 <ehird> what version does it say it is?
01:47:02 <ehird> the lastest version is 1.0.13
01:47:16 <ehird> oerjan: pastebin everything from 'sbcl<RETURN>' to it dying
01:47:44 <oerjan> the unexpected thing was that cmucl was from 2007...
01:48:25 <ehird> i still need the output to be able to help you usefully :)
01:48:28 <ehird> and yeah that's pretty odd
01:48:37 <ehird> evidently, some bias is in place :P
01:49:14 <oerjan> yep. nvg uses the university's custom package manager
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01:49:37 <oerjan> there is a 0.9.16 version but it is not propagated
01:49:46 <ehird> anyway do the pastebin thing :P
01:50:25 <oerjan> it is cross-platform, i guess is the one nice thing about it
01:51:07 <ehird> hellooooo, pastebin
01:53:20 <oerjan> http://pastebin.com/m2e9abd8c
01:54:36 <oerjan> why that gives after the banner:
01:54:37 <oerjan> fatal error encountered in SBCL runtime system:
01:54:38 <oerjan> GC invariant lost, file "gencgc.c", line 6157
01:55:03 <oerjan> i think that version is a lost cause...
01:55:37 <ehird> do you have any means of installing to perhaps ~/bin etc.?
01:55:44 <ehird> wait, alternatively
01:55:46 <ehird> take the dumb route
01:55:59 <ehird> wait, no, you couldn't
01:57:19 <ehird> oerjan: well, if you do manage, you can use my README etc
01:57:25 <ehird> maybe i'll see a new qq program by tomorrow :P
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02:27:57 <pikhq> Well, I start my Calc II class tomorrow. . . :)
02:30:49 <pikhq> Interestingly, it's a class offered online with recorded lectures. . .
02:30:54 <pikhq> But whatever. I has calculus!
02:31:10 <RodgerTheGreat> perhaps it's just me, but my Calculus 2 course at MTU was not fun. Cryptography and Formal Models of Computation were both a blast.
02:31:59 <pikhq> I enjoyed Calc 1, so I suspect Calc 2 will be equally enjoyable.
02:34:34 <RodgerTheGreat> For me, I really lost interest when Calc 2 bogged down in algebraic minutia revolving around integrals. I had the whole "Whoa, calculus is really just a few basic principles!" revelation in Calc 1, so I don't think there was much more for me to enjoy.
02:35:52 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm much stronger in some areas of math than others, and really wicked algebra and algebra based on "guessing" or intuitively knowing things frustrates me no end.
02:36:42 <pikhq> Algebraic manipulation is something that comes easily to me. . .
02:36:50 <pikhq> As is quite a bit of math, really.
02:37:24 <RodgerTheGreat> when explaining Factoring seemed to boil down to "...and then you try numbers until you find some that make this equation work", my reaction was essentially "If you cannot write an algorithm a computer would use to solve this, why am I expected to be capable of solving it?"
02:37:29 * pikhq remembers forgetting a few derivatives on a calc test, and therefore, as part of the work, had proofs of the derivatives of functions. :p
02:38:49 <pikhq> I also remember figuring out the derivative of x^x without it having been taught. . .
02:39:08 <pikhq> (I've since forgotten it. XD)
02:39:20 <RodgerTheGreat> I can crunch through matrix operations wonderfully. They have a zenlike, mechanical feel to them. I enjoy how linear algebra can take ugly, complex problems and make them regular, clean solutions through straightforward algorithms
02:40:14 -!- boily has left (?).
02:52:00 * oerjan remembers having an epiphany with x^x and the multivariable chain rule
02:56:00 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, let's watch a scientology orientation video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3094137170809569203&hl=en
02:59:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I always enjoy dissecting the arguments of religious nutcases.
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03:36:29 <pikhq> I enjoy dissecting the arguments of all nutcases.
03:38:21 <RodgerTheGreat> religious arguments are to owl pellets as arguments are to dung
03:39:25 <pikhq> The music over the video of the various Scientology buildings serves to excite viewers, without actually giving any reasons for it. . .
03:39:49 <pikhq> And the claim of thousands of churchs is another show of illogic.
03:39:56 <RodgerTheGreat> If you don't have time to watch the whole video, skip to the last 5 minutes- it's awesome
03:40:33 <pikhq> An appeal to God and Christianity in Scientology amuses me.
03:40:54 <RodgerTheGreat> "THE GOVERNMENT WAS DEVELOPING MIND CONTROL BUT A HACK SCI-FI WRITER FOILED THEIR DASTARDLY PLANS. BUY HUNDREDS OF HIS BOOKS TO ACHIEVE NIRVANA OR FREEZE IN SPACE WHILE WE CHILL OUT WITH ALIENS OK"
03:40:58 <pikhq> And they make a big show of proving that they're a religion.
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03:41:15 <pikhq> With patriotic music over it.
03:41:33 <pikhq> I'm watching this all the way through, because it's too damned amusing.
03:42:06 <RodgerTheGreat> I like how they on one hand claim they're in opposition to the government's mind control programs, and then on the other hand use government investigations to justify being a legit religion
03:42:40 <pikhq> "L. Ron Hubbard is just a man." and they go on to imply that he's a minor diety.
03:43:34 <pikhq> And the suits & ties are themselves implying that they speak from authority. . .
03:43:48 <oerjan> "We won't mention Muhammed as we don't like our churches to burn."
03:43:56 <pikhq> And they note that he had '65 professions'.
03:44:18 <pikhq> And they have a fucking *shrine* to his sci-fi.
03:45:21 <pikhq> The mental gynmastics required in this is astounding.
03:45:34 <pikhq> And now, the conspiracy theory.
03:45:55 <pikhq> I absolutely love anti-Scientology stuff.
03:46:03 <RodgerTheGreat> I had no idea how *openly* crazy scientologists were before watching this
03:46:07 <pikhq> (I've read OT-I through III. Hilarious.)
03:46:44 <pikhq> And I love how they claim dianetics is available to all who want it.
03:46:56 <pikhq> Then why do they charge several billion?
03:47:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I also love how in the beginning, they claim religion inherently makes sense because it has existed for thousands of years
03:47:08 <pikhq> And they make an appeal to the popularity of his books. . .
03:47:17 <pikhq> In a Scientologist bookstore.
03:47:45 <Asztal> bah, I can't seem to seek to a specific point in the video.
03:48:24 * Asztal wonders why so many flash video players are so terribly bad at this seemingly simple task
03:48:38 <pikhq> "L. Ron Hubbard's words are truth." "He mad revision after revision after revision."
03:49:28 <pikhq> And the *basics* of Scientology? 10 hard-cover, glossy books.
03:49:48 <pikhq> "You, too, can be a scientologist! Just send $1,000 to us!"
03:49:49 <RodgerTheGreat> "why do my arguments always sound stupid when you rephrase them?"
03:50:06 <RodgerTheGreat> just wait for the dude with charts on how your personality can be improved
03:50:32 <pikhq> I'm loving how they claim that all the different Orgs are completely independent.
03:50:53 <pikhq> Then how do they have that much pooled funds?
03:51:00 <RodgerTheGreat> the kicker is "legally independent". That's very good planning.
03:51:31 <pikhq> Legally independent is just clever legality.
03:51:57 <pikhq> "We don't worship Ron. We just have an office for a dead man in every Org."
03:53:07 <pikhq> I'm really loving the Religious Technology Center.
03:53:29 <pikhq> "We give it out to everyone! That's why we charge up the wazoo!"
03:53:41 <pikhq> Also, they claim they serve to prevent the 'tech' from being changed.
03:53:59 <pikhq> Note that Ron has 'written' books post-mortem. ;)
03:55:02 <pikhq> Those graphs are so fake & laughable.
03:55:54 <pikhq> They don't even *try* to hide the crazy.
03:56:14 <pikhq> More conspiracy theory!
03:56:18 <pikhq> Anti-psychology, this time.
03:56:48 <pikhq> And claiming that Scientology, if allowed to work, makes the world perfect.
03:57:22 <pikhq> And another hardcover book they recommend for beginners!
03:57:52 <pikhq> That's $1,100 and counting. (I'm assuming, from the pictures and knowledge of the church, that these are college textbook-priced.)
03:58:36 <pikhq> "Scientology: cures what ails ya!"
03:59:28 <pikhq> And they still have yet to even *define* Scientology.
04:01:14 <pikhq> And are they claiming that all denominations are welcome at the CoS?'
04:01:37 <pikhq> And another book, with a leather and gold cover. . .
04:02:41 <pikhq> And they're going back to the "Scientology *is* a religion!" bit.
04:03:54 <pikhq> "Scientology helped me!!!" claim people.
04:04:26 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E <- this is a great follow-up
04:04:55 <pikhq> It's like Scientology 101 is "Saying words without saying anything".
04:05:40 <RodgerTheGreat> "If you leave this room after seeing this film and walk out and never mention Scientology again, you are perfectly free to do so. It would be stupid, but you can do it. You can also dive off a bridge or blow your brains out. That is your choice."
04:05:44 <pikhq> This is even more vague than fortune cookies, for $diety's sake!
04:06:22 <pikhq> Almost to the last 5 minutes. . .
04:06:28 <pikhq> I assume the crazy goes to 11 there?
04:06:54 <pikhq> The total is $1,400 for recommendations.
04:07:44 <pikhq> And after half an hour, that video does not explain what Scientology *is*.
04:08:18 <RodgerTheGreat> "Materialistic Science has not disproven god or the spirit - they just say there isn't one"
04:08:28 <pikhq> "Arise above the decay."
04:08:40 <pikhq> "You are an immortal being."
04:08:47 <pikhq> Yeah, the crazy has hit 11.
04:09:43 <pikhq> (at least most religions put this up front, as a given. Scientology claims that "... therefore, you're immortal, QED.")
04:10:04 <oklopol> ever woken up from a dream to continue it for a while while awake? i just woke up, and actually felt someone hit their teeth deep inside my skull, and actually started fighting back, at least for about 10 sec before i realized there was no one there
04:10:46 <pikhq> "What's true is what is true for you."
04:12:04 <pikhq> Those last 2 minutes are too damned crazy to describe.
04:12:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I like huxley's version. something like "6742 repetitions equals one truth."
04:12:39 <pikhq> That is a good version, yes.
04:13:26 <RodgerTheGreat> and really, scientology is closer to a Brave New World than 1984 for a variety of reasons. They just need soma.
04:14:36 <pikhq> I know, but that one line was also quite Orwellian.
04:14:45 <RodgerTheGreat> I always though Brave New World was a more frightening book, because people do it to themselves. THX-1138 is chilling for the same "watchers watching watchers" type of reason.
04:14:57 <pikhq> Brave New World was *damned* chilling.
04:15:18 <pikhq> 1984 was eerie, but BNW is *scary*.
04:17:52 <RodgerTheGreat> 1984's scariest moments come as the agents in MiniLuv wear down and destroy Winston's mind.
04:18:32 <RodgerTheGreat> And just considering the depths of meaning in the name "Ministry of Love" can give me chills.
04:20:35 <RodgerTheGreat> great quote from hubbard himself: "Did you ever read poor old George Orwell's uh.. 1984? Yes, yes, that's wonderful. That would be, could be, the palest imagined shadow of what a world would be like under the rule of the secret use of Scientology with no remedy in existence"
04:21:11 <pikhq> Miniluv is where all the truly *freaky* shit happens: even the very *mind* is changed.
04:21:34 <pikhq> "He loved Big Brother." is, to me, the scariest thing in that whole book. . .
04:22:22 <RodgerTheGreat> "if you want a crystal clear vision of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face, forever."
04:22:55 <pikhq> Now, this room feels like I'm in an English class that I'd actually care about. :p
04:23:44 <RodgerTheGreat> wanna talk about Lord of the Flies? God, I loved that book.
04:23:56 <pikhq> That's another good one.
04:24:05 <pikhq> I hated how my English class taught it though.
04:24:13 <pikhq> "What is the symbolism of the shell?*"
04:24:25 <RodgerTheGreat> "To think that the beast was something that could be hunted and killed... I've been with you all along..." <- fucking goosebumps every time
04:24:34 <pikhq> Who gives a fuck? The interesting thing is the discussion of what a beastial creature man can be.
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04:24:51 <RodgerTheGreat> breaking books into symbolism like that completely destroys the fun of reading them
04:25:10 <pikhq> It also distracts from the meaning of the book. . .
04:25:44 <pikhq> I'm enjoying my current English class, just because it asks not "what's the symbolism of foo bar and baz", but "What does this mean, and why?"
04:25:50 <pikhq> I can handle that.
04:25:57 <pikhq> Anyways, Lord of the Flies.
04:26:54 <RodgerTheGreat> my favorite aspect of the book is the ending, when you think about it
04:27:25 <pikhq> It's been a while, but I think I remember that ending. Kids get discovered by pilots, IIRC.
04:27:52 <RodgerTheGreat> naval officers rescue the kids, and they instantly come to their senses. But the true irony is that the officers themselves are getting ready to RETURN TO A WAR. The implication is, "who's going to snap the *adults* out of it?"
04:28:20 <pikhq> Probably the only way that story could sanely end.
04:28:54 * pikhq wonders why more assigned books in English couldn't have such interesting implications. . .
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04:29:36 <RodgerTheGreat> Jane Eyre, Great Expectations, the Great Gatsby... eugh.
04:29:51 <pikhq> Instead, we get books like 'Bless Me Ultima', which is about half hallucinations, and half meaningless.
04:29:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I kinda liked "One day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich"
04:30:21 <pikhq> Never heard of it.
04:30:32 <RodgerTheGreat> "Crime and Punishment" was kinda decent, but it felt really drawn out and I have difficulty enjoying a book where you're *supposed* to hate the narrator. Plus the ending was horrible.
04:31:06 <RodgerTheGreat> "BUT IT'S OK, BECAUSE HE REPENTED, FOUND JESUS AND WILL MARRY A HOOKER WITH A HEART OF GOLD!"
04:31:36 <RodgerTheGreat> the dude MURDERED two people, one of which was a really nice person!
04:32:03 * pikhq wonders: would you call Hemingway any good?
04:32:15 <pikhq> We just started doing stuff on Hemingway, so. . .
04:32:46 <pikhq> "Of Mice and Men" was pretty good, IIRC.
04:32:51 <RodgerTheGreat> the grapes of wrath was rather dull, but it had it's moments. That was another WTF ending.
04:33:02 <pikhq> Not read that one.
04:33:28 <pikhq> And "Of Mice and Men" and "Grapes of Wrath" are Steinbeck, not Hemingway.
04:33:44 <RodgerTheGreat> don't bother with the grapes of wrath, but read "the old man and the sea" sometime. Actually, you could probably run through it on project gutenburg in a couple hours.
04:34:07 <pikhq> We're doing Hemingway's short fiction here.
04:34:22 <pikhq> "The Old Man and the Sea" is genuinely Hemingway, though. ;)
04:35:22 <pikhq> From what I've read of both of them, their simplistic style *is* similar. . .
04:35:35 <pikhq> Hemingway's seems a bit more spare, though.
04:39:12 <RodgerTheGreat> It's very simple, but it so perfectly describes the mood of the book
04:40:24 <RodgerTheGreat> something like this just doesn't do the book as much visceral justice: http://www.shopholyokenews.com/shop/shopimages/products/normal/9780399501487.JPEG
04:43:10 <pikhq> *That's* the latest one?
04:43:19 <pikhq> What the hell are they thinking?
04:43:38 <pikhq> The book has torment, not a fly mounted on a kid!
04:46:40 <oklopol> old man and the sea wasn't good, lord of the flies wasn't good... though
04:49:25 <oklopol> well, old man and the sea had an interesting idea... lord of the flies i just found plain bad
04:49:52 <oklopol> i can't stand books based on idiots fighting over nothing.
04:50:06 <oklopol> even if they're kids and that seems probable to actually happen
04:51:52 <pikhq> I suspect it's a book more easily enjoyed by those who read remarkably obsessively.
04:51:56 <RodgerTheGreat> and the main characters represent different archetypes- mysticism, repressed violence, authority, intellectualism
04:52:15 <RodgerTheGreat> using the name "roger" is actually some really great biblical symbolism
04:52:27 <oklopol> too black and white characters
04:52:31 * pikhq will probably pick up his book-a-day habit again in college
04:52:45 <RodgerTheGreat> if you recall, "roger" in LotF became the torturer- "a stick sharpened at both ends".
04:53:11 <RodgerTheGreat> Biblically, the name "roger" means "he who carries the spear"
04:53:22 <oklopol> i, on the other hand, have decided never to read a fictional book again :D
04:53:35 <pikhq> You are a *freak*.
04:53:53 <RodgerTheGreat> (as in, the roman soldier who supposedly stabbed christ out of mercy)
04:54:13 <pikhq> You'll take my fiction from my cold, dead fingers.
04:54:31 <RodgerTheGreat> I also like the fact that they never make it fully clear what roger does to people- it makes it all the more chilling.
04:54:36 <oklopol> well, i do sometimes enjoy modern stuff
04:54:42 <oklopol> strangler ficus was quite good
04:55:00 <oklopol> not sure what the original name is, that's just a crude translation
04:55:01 <pikhq> On a different note: Mmm. The Time Machine.
04:55:30 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: i don't remember at all who roger was anymore
04:55:58 <oklopol> so i'm missing the point a bit :<
04:58:02 <RodgerTheGreat> he's one of Jack's followers. He's described as a dark child, with many scenes painting him as having deeply sadistic tendencies. As I said, he later becomes Jack's torturer, wielding "a stick sharpened at both ends", which he uses to do something unspeakable to those that oppose Jack.
04:59:02 <oklopol> lol i don't remember anything... guess i should read it again.
04:59:12 <oklopol> anyway, i don't find biblical references that interesting
04:59:17 <GregorR> Sodomy is sometimes called the sin which a Christian cannot say :P
04:59:31 <GregorR> One could also call it ... unspeakable ... :P
05:01:28 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: it's possible, but it's pretty obvious that leaving whatever he did unspoken is much better from a dramatic perspective than just telling the reader
05:02:24 <RodgerTheGreat> and that wouldn't necessarily require a stick. Even if the obvious explanation there held, it wouldn't explain why it was sharpened at two ends.
05:02:35 <oklopol> i can imagine the book getting a better status with a long gay rape scene! :D
05:03:13 <RodgerTheGreat> Plus there are significantly more painful, if not more dehumanizing, forms of torture, like the veritable cornucopia of things that can be done to the human body with bamboo.
05:05:16 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno of any off the top of my head, but a popular one is sharpened bamboo shoots inserted underneath fingernails and toenails. I understand it's excruciating.
05:05:38 <oklopol> yeah, i never really believed in that
05:05:47 <oklopol> had a lot of stuff under my nails
05:06:08 <GregorR> You've never had anything stabbed just a liiiitle bit too far?
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05:06:32 <oklopol> may have just been too shallow in
05:06:38 <RodgerTheGreat> you can also split it and whip people with a stalk- every bit as painful and damaging as a cat-o-nine tails
05:06:40 <adu> hi oklopol
05:07:02 <oklopol> oh god... i forgot what you asked me :<
05:07:04 <adu> i've been working on my language
05:07:14 <adu> oklopol: what did I ask you?
05:07:16 <RodgerTheGreat> when dry bamboo is cut axially, it gets really, *really* sharp
05:07:36 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: what have you been reading? :P
05:07:49 <oklopol> adu: i don't remember, it was quite a lot of time ago.
05:08:08 <adu> oklopol: I actually saved that chat, I could pull it up :)
05:08:27 <oklopol> i've been trying to answer you for ages :-)
05:08:43 <oklopol> i get a bit obsessed about not being able to answer a question
05:09:05 <adu> [23:17] adu: what new thing?
05:09:05 <adu> [23:17] oklopol: not a programming language
05:09:15 <adu> is that it?
05:09:44 <adu> [23:18] oklopol: with happy bouncing balls!
05:09:47 <oklopol> you asked something, then said "nevermind, i have to leave"
05:10:37 <oklopol> you saying there's no question there? :\
05:11:04 <RodgerTheGreat> ooh, found a new one: http://www.answers.com/topic/chinese-bamboo-torture
05:11:46 <RodgerTheGreat> the whole "wanna buy some bamboo art?" thing on the right makes that article pretty funny
05:12:22 <oklopol> adu: i need to see the log, what day was that?
05:13:29 <adu> 10:50:21 <oklopol> adu: what do you mean "part of a single model"?
05:13:31 <adu> is that it?
05:14:34 <adu> 11:05:41 <adu> what is "koed"?
05:14:49 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: more scientology goodies: http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-6812164614976718979
05:14:57 <oklopol> yes, just found that myself too
05:15:28 <adu> anyways I've been working on my hash-lang
05:15:44 <adu> For the longest time I've been debating about Patterns and Symbols
05:15:56 <adu> everything is a hash-table basically
05:16:03 <adu> if statements are like this:
05:16:25 <adu> {True: texpr; False: fexpr}.(x == "fish")
05:17:13 <RodgerTheGreat> makes sense. After all, one definition of a function is simply a set of mappings from input to output.
05:17:21 <oklopol> {#t: texpr; #f: fexpr} (X == "fish")
05:17:45 <adu> But if you allow hashtables to have Defaults and Patterns and Order
05:17:50 <adu> then you have everything
05:18:05 <oklopol> oklotalk does the same, but the functions are actually functions :-)
05:18:38 <adu> well, PatternDefaultHashTables are like functions
05:18:57 <adu> square = {\x: x*x}
05:19:12 <oklopol> hashtables make a bit more sense if they're mutable.
05:19:17 <oklopol> oklotalk has mutable functions :D
05:20:06 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: the fascinating thing about these interviews with steven fishman is that he appears to display rational thought GIVEN that you accept the writings he's read as truth. This is pretty much textbook schizophrenia.
05:20:42 <adu> who is Steven?
05:21:13 <adu> who is Hubbard?
05:21:33 <RodgerTheGreat> a mediocre science fiction writer and creator of a highly successful cult/religion
05:21:42 <pikhq> Said cult is called Scientology.
05:21:57 <oklopol> not just a finction writer! also an AVIATOR
05:22:39 <pikhq> oklopol: Their shrine to him claims that he had over 60 professions.
05:23:14 <adu> oklopol: that depends
05:23:29 <adu> what does Mr. Fishman claim?
05:23:30 <pikhq> That's really creepy.
05:23:40 <pikhq> Standard Scientology fair.
05:23:49 <RodgerTheGreat> http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-6812164614976718979 <- you can watch if you'd like
05:24:43 <oklopol> i'm actually quite terrified by even the normal religious people coming to my door
05:24:50 <oklopol> i don't think i'd make a good cultist
05:25:16 <GregorR> I've never had door-to-door Jesus solicitors.
05:25:52 <oklopol> i was just told the other day about "god having set the variables of the world"
05:26:02 <pikhq> Even I, as a Christian, am tempted to respond with "Sorry, you're interrupting my human sacrifice. Could you make this quick?"
05:26:19 <oklopol> and they were a bit worried i might believe in that "evolution thing"
05:26:29 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: You can only trip people up logically if their argument has logic.
05:26:58 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: When they've totally exempted themselves from the rules of logic and reason, you really have no weapon. Except for bullets.
05:27:33 <adu> watching vidieo
05:27:33 <oklopol> i could never tell someone their whole life has no point :\
05:27:46 <oklopol> even if they wouldn't believe me
05:28:32 <oklopol> especially if it's an old woman... i feel it's better not to upset them during the little time they have
05:28:46 <RodgerTheGreat> "How did you exteriorize yourself then?" "Well, I just located myself in space and time. Then I produced a beam. I was vaccilating."
05:29:25 <pikhq> Holy crap. I knew they were crazy, but the crazy goes to 110!!!
05:30:02 <pikhq> I'm convinced that you and I have similar tastes. . .
05:30:10 <pikhq> Excepting OS choice, of course.
05:30:25 <oklopol> hey, everyone likes a religious freak ;)
05:31:15 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure cults are just for the entertainment of the people with a brain.
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05:32:13 <pikhq> "You don't need your eyes to see."
05:32:33 <pikhq> So, he wouldn't mind if I removed them?
05:32:51 <adu> pikhq: you take things to litterally
05:33:02 <adu> much of spirituality is linguistic metaphors
05:33:11 <pikhq> In this case, he's being literal.
05:33:19 <oklopol> yep, it doesn't mean anything, and it doesn't have to
05:33:26 <RodgerTheGreat> technically speaking, there's a grain of truth to that. "MInd's Eye", or audiovisual scratchpad, depending which model of cognition you subscribe to. :)
05:33:39 <pikhq> He is literally saying that he can leave his body, and see without his eyes.
05:33:47 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: That's not quite what he's discussing.
05:33:51 <uvanta> what's wrong with the topic
05:34:09 <RodgerTheGreat> this is plausible, but it's very difficult to be certain what is metaphor and what is not
05:34:57 <adu> There is only 1 outwrite falsehood I've encountered so far
05:35:27 <RodgerTheGreat> it's very interesting, and disturbing at the same time
05:35:56 <adu> RodgerTheGreat: his worldview is not unique
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05:36:15 <RodgerTheGreat> For a while, I've thought it would be interesting to create a discipline called "Memetic Engineering"
05:36:24 <oklopol> is it? i thought it's rather simple and boring
05:36:26 <adu> RodgerTheGreat: there are elements of his worldview scattered throughout all world Religions
05:36:37 <RodgerTheGreat> adu: but it was constructed, in this case by L. Ron Hubbard.
05:36:42 <oklopol> "thought" not as in "my opinion is"
05:37:07 <RodgerTheGreat> I view religions of all kinds as a type of organism, but in this case they are generally built purposefully, at least at first
05:37:38 <RodgerTheGreat> An organism composed not of matter, but of ideas, and living not in the physical universe, but in the minds of human communities
05:38:16 <RodgerTheGreat> it's like a computer virus- a little bit alive, although existing in an entirely artificial universe
05:38:36 <oklopol> yep, that's an interesting way to put it.
05:38:57 <RodgerTheGreat> science is a memetic virus, too, as is the square knot and written language
05:39:14 <adu> my two favorite sources of rational mind candy are:
05:39:15 <adu> http://anewlife.org
05:39:20 <adu> http://www.geohanover.com/philo.htm
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05:39:51 <oklopol> science is kinda like the virus in Phenomenon, makes you better and better until you soon die of it
05:40:00 <adu> oops, i forgot http://fusionanomaly.net/
05:40:18 <adu> whats Snow Crash?
05:40:38 <oklopol> well, obviously, but can you describe it?
05:41:10 <RodgerTheGreat> Its... very complicated. It's one of my favorite books, so I don't think I could reduce it very well- check out the wiki article
05:43:14 <RodgerTheGreat> but what I find interesting, as a fundamental difference between science and religion, is that one's very existence is defined by change, while another has intricate mechanisms designed to impede change and maintain a constant memetic genome.
05:44:10 <RodgerTheGreat> and memetic viruses, like biological viruses, cannot stand alone- they function together with a complex network of other ideas and logical frameworks
05:45:11 <oklopol> hmm... religions can live for quite long without new religions though
05:45:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I consider a "worldview" to be the sum total, roughly, of memes hosted by an individual
05:46:11 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: I think you misinterpreted my statement. Science is defined by change, and religions are designed to minimize mutation
05:46:24 <RodgerTheGreat> written language, and written scriptures are one such mechanism
05:47:09 -!- GregorR has set topic: #esoteric: The best channel for ridiculous religious arguments on FreeNode!.
05:47:22 <RodgerTheGreat> The study of religions can be very interesting, but I don't think many theologians would take kindly to my mechanistic way of thinking about them
05:47:42 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: I dunno, I don't think we're really having an argument, at least not yet
05:48:01 <oklopol> the problem is i agree with you almost completely
05:48:10 <oklopol> so... hard to make an argument.
05:48:38 <oklopol> indeed, execpt i prefer watching you go than contributing myself. :)
05:49:19 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I appreciate you listening, but as I said I need sleep
05:50:20 <oklopol> "<RodgerTheGreat> and memetic viruses, like biological viruses, cannot stand alone- they function together with a complex network of other ideas and logical frameworks" <<< my mistake was for some reason thinking you especially meant religions by this.
05:51:19 <RodgerTheGreat> on the contrary, religions are exceptionally self-sufficient (although not completely)
05:52:09 <RodgerTheGreat> and most religions are exclusive, so they obviously don't need other religions to thrive. ;)
05:52:47 <RodgerTheGreat> they just need other religions as evolutionary pressure, to become resilient
05:53:41 <adu> well that video what certainly entertaining
05:54:11 <adu> Aparently scientology metaphors are so numerous, there are various dictionaries exclusively for it
05:54:16 <oklopol> RodgerTheGreat: indeed, that was what i found weird about it.
05:54:46 <pikhq> adu: There's probably several thousand dollars worth of books needed just to figure out what Scientology is.
05:54:52 -!- cherez has joined.
05:54:56 <pikhq> (I cheat. Project Clambake = w00ts.)
05:54:59 <adu> pikhq: lol
05:55:49 <oklopol> i'm too much a behaviorist to really care what "scientology is"
05:56:22 <adu> Obviously, its the study of "scient"
05:57:29 <pikhq> cherez: You took Latin. Tell us.
05:57:55 <pikhq> Scientology. Etymology.
05:58:15 <cherez> 'tology is Greek-based.
05:58:15 * pikhq mashes go on that Cherez again
05:58:26 * pikhq still mashes go on that Cherez
05:58:42 <cherez> Scient* though, comes from the Latin scientia meaning knowledge.
05:58:53 <pikhq> Is Ig-pay Atin-lay Latin?
05:59:07 <pikhq> IGPAY ATINLY IS GREEK!!! :D
05:59:12 <cherez> The first day of my Latin class someone did ask that.
05:59:25 <adu> X-D rocks!
05:59:43 <GregorR> "Christian Science and Scientology are not related. Christian Science is antasy, Scientology is sci-fi."
06:01:01 <cherez> Scientology would come out literally to something like "the study of knowledge."
06:01:51 <adu> I love security check #101
06:01:55 <adu> "101. HAVE YOU EVER CAUSED A PLANET TO DISAPPEAR?"
06:02:12 <cherez> Aside from how mixing langauge rootsi s generally a no-no....
06:04:26 <adu> from the " Operation Clambake" site
06:05:10 <cherez> Operation Clambake is a beautiful site.
06:05:48 <adu> no, Wikipedia is a beautiful site
06:07:47 <adu> Why the A x 89 in the title?
06:09:43 -!- GregorR has set topic: TOPIC NOSTALGIA! 'Why is there an 'L' in Noel? || Because "Noël" is prettier than an "L"? Errr... || Celebrate Mungday!'.
06:09:45 <pikhq> Because you're not the boss of me.
06:10:05 -!- GregorR has set topic: TOPIC NOSTALGIA! (topic from 2004/01/05) 'Why is there an 'L' in Noel? || Because "Noël" is prettier than an "L"? Errr... || Celebrate Mungday!'.
06:10:51 <pikhq> http://www.dresdencodak.com/cartoons/dc_038.html Get it.
06:14:27 <oklopol> actually you make a good point, if scientology doesn't make claims, it isn't anything
06:17:19 <oklopol> to be honest, i still don't get it :D
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06:20:19 <adu> oklopol: wanna hear what I came up with today for my lang?
06:20:37 <adu> A syntax for patterns and symbols
06:20:57 <adu> pattern identifiers can be used for whatever the pattern has matched
06:21:05 <adu> and symbols will only match that symbol
06:21:23 <adu> like in lambda
06:21:45 <adu> x is a pattern that matches whatever you give it
06:21:57 <adu> \[a,b]:a*b
06:22:10 <adu> will only match a list of two "whatever"s
06:22:34 <oklopol> do you have something like haskell's @?
06:22:47 <adu> but /e:(exp 1) will only match E
06:22:55 <adu> er i mean "e"
06:23:07 <oklopol> i hate it when pattern matches lack that, or, similarly, an imperative language lacks an "=" whose result is a normal value
06:23:42 <adu> oklopol, not yet, but i'm thinking about it
06:24:11 <oklopol> that's a very fundamental idea, good if you had it yourself, but many have had it before you
06:24:20 <oklopol> if it was just that match/set distinction
06:24:28 <adu> I like Haskell's @ as well :)
06:26:07 <oklopol> i've realized that not going to school has actually been bad for me... when i'm at school, i get millions of ideas, but i can't code, so i get nothing done... but at least i have stuff to write in the evening... if i don't go anywhere, i'm on the computer, but i have no ideas :D
06:26:31 <adu> oklopol: i understand completely
06:26:48 <adu> Hearing teachers talk about anything gets me thinking
06:26:54 <oklopol> "..." has become my period, i now realize... "." is just too little when you don't capitalize.
06:27:11 <adu> like listening to my spech class teacher, made me want to write a database
06:27:21 <oklopol> yeah, usually it's not even remotely related to whatever they're saying
06:27:26 <adu> listening to my art teacher made me want to write a typeseting language
06:28:02 <oklopol> yep, had a lecture about b-trees, and i had this idea about a network-shared tuplespace
06:28:33 <adu> have I told you about my 2 favorite spaces?
06:28:36 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/index.php?app=0 hat!
06:28:57 <oklopol> or then you have and i don't remember
06:29:17 <adu> FungeSpace, ZZSpace, and possibly the exponential magma over finite sets
06:29:42 <oklopol> fungespace? infinite dimensions?
06:30:15 <oklopol> i haven't done befunge really, or any 2d language
06:30:56 <adu> http://xanadu.com/zigzag/
06:30:57 <adu> http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html
06:31:04 <oklopol> hat is awesome, it's a chat with two commands, setting a variable, and checking the value of a variable
06:31:24 <oklopol> you can have any number of users, and they all share the hashmap!
06:31:43 <oklopol> (5 is the maximum, though, any number just sounds better)
06:32:46 <oklopol> i feel graphs are the ultimate datastructure
06:33:09 <adu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magma_(algebra)
06:34:09 <adu> oklopol: then how do you represent 2D rectangular arrays?
06:34:26 <oklopol> i can show the graphica program again
06:35:31 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p352542264.txt
06:35:49 <oklopol> just have (x,y) connect to (x+1,y) and (x,y+1)
06:36:23 <oklopol> *that notation will be present in graphica later
06:38:04 <adu> ok, how do you select all elements in the second column?
06:38:28 <oklopol> {x y <-> x+1 y <-> x y+1} most likely
06:38:28 <oklopol> (for the notation, that is)
06:38:28 <oklopol> umm, you can't do that yet in graphica
06:38:36 <oklopol> but, it's simple to explain
06:39:00 <oklopol> this graph here does not understand the concept of right and left
06:39:23 <oklopol> but those can easily be added
06:39:52 <adu> you know how ZigZag Space does it?
06:40:20 <adu> every arrow is labelled with a # of a dimension and a sign
06:40:47 <adu> i.e. positive in the y direction, negative in the z direction
06:40:55 <oklopol> i mean, is it something that connects two things
06:40:55 <adu> directed edge
06:41:22 <oklopol> dimension? graphs go way beyond that..
06:41:36 <adu> technically all edges are "undirected" but somehow know which one is "more positive", which mathematically implies a directed edge
06:42:01 <oklopol> undirected edges can simulate a directed edge, naturally.
06:42:21 <oklopol> trivial, but a bit hard to explain on irc
06:42:34 <oklopol> you have N---N for an edge
06:43:12 <oklopol> replace each edge with N-f-r-N, where f and t are nodes whose number of connections differentiate them from each other
06:43:32 <adu> interesting
06:43:45 <adu> kind of inefficient, but interesting
06:43:56 <oklopol> i've come up with quite an intuition about graphs
06:44:24 <oklopol> yep, but inefficiency is the way to beauty
06:44:34 <adu> you should add the ability to import RDFS
06:44:46 <oklopol> you see, after you know that can be done, you don't have to do it, just keep in mind what you are simulating when adding features.
06:45:06 <adu> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/
06:45:38 <oklopol> left, right, up and down can be done in a similar fashion, which makes it easy to go "down"
06:45:50 <adu> and don't forget http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/
06:46:12 <oklopol> if you don't care about whether to get the second row or the second column, you don't even need to label the directions.
06:46:23 <oklopol> (assuming you can check for identity between nodes)
06:46:46 <oklopol> you can always go straight to *a* direction in a 2d array
06:46:53 <adu> i wish i could "program" in rdf
06:47:37 <oklopol> i'm leaving soon, can you nutshellify that?
06:49:21 <adu> RDF is the platform for OWL = Web ontology lang, which is an rdf word-set for describing classes and relationships, which I hope to build a chat-bot with oneday
06:49:23 <adu> like: http://www.daxtron.com/cyn.htm
06:49:32 <oklopol> i made an attempt once at a natural language with as little vocab as possible
06:49:43 <oklopol> 15 words could already do a lot
06:49:56 <adu> hmm, which words?
06:50:22 <oklopol> hmm, some logic, derivative, integration and "world"
06:50:28 <oklopol> also, i think i had some concept of identity
06:50:44 <adu> interesting
06:50:46 <oklopol> world was for getting something physical in
06:51:10 <oklopol> it was a bit complex an object, a hashmap with coords in, content out
06:51:17 <adu> like "a chair is part of the world"
06:51:19 <oklopol> doesn't sound that complex actually.
06:51:41 <oklopol> "speed" took about 1000 characters
06:51:51 <oklopol> chair would prolly be impossible.
06:52:30 <oklopol> the idea behind it was, once you've ruled out every other imaginable object by describing, you've described your object
06:52:43 <oklopol> i think this is implicitly true for every language
06:53:23 <oklopol> it's just if you don't have a word for "chair", it's interesting to see what you need to be able to explain it unambiguously for someone with the same cultural background as you.
06:53:41 <adu> I knew a guy in california who had this idea that there was a "line" between an object and that which it was not
06:54:09 <oklopol> "lalna", my other lang, had a separate module for geometry, you could explain a chair in that one quite easily without an actual word for chair.
06:54:22 <oklopol> ("table" happened to be one of my most used testcases)
06:54:22 <adu> and he thought that the outside of that boundary-line was "definition" and then he asked me: What do you think is on the inside of that boundary?
06:55:09 <adu> Then he said, in an authoritative, eureka-like tone: "Ambiguity"
06:55:27 <oklopol> "outside" is the definition?
06:55:40 <oklopol> hmm... isn't an object's identity something you approach from all directions?
06:55:42 <adu> maybe I have it backwards
06:55:50 <adu> he was crazy
06:56:20 <adu> He also wrote dense poetry where the shorted word was 17 letters long
06:56:33 <adu> shorted -> shortest
06:56:42 <oklopol> doesn't sound crazy, just sounds like someone has had too little ideas and gotten overexcited about their first good one
06:57:15 <adu> he majored in acoustics, he must have listened to too many ideas
06:57:38 <adu> The study of sound
06:58:07 <oklopol> why did i ask, i should know that perfectly well xD
06:58:25 <oklopol> i guess i didn't know you could major in it
06:58:34 <adu> Apparently you can
06:58:53 <adu> i think only crazy people can major in acoustics
07:00:33 <oklopol> if you visualized concepts in a 3-dimensional space or something
07:00:48 <oklopol> so that going nearere an object would be describing some part of it
07:01:03 <oklopol> then there wouldn't really be "balls"
07:01:18 <oklopol> since if two objects are close, their balls don't really intersect
07:01:26 <oklopol> because you can only be unambiguous inside one ball.
07:02:09 <oklopol> so basically, balls would take their shape from 1. how unique they are, or how far they are from others, and 2. their importance... the probability at which a certain object is described should grant it greater space
07:04:25 <adu> interesting
07:04:45 <oklopol> so... now we need four words, two to change dimension and two to move on it (we'll assume the "concept space" has infinite dimensions), with these four words you can describe anything!
07:04:55 <oklopol> i'll be removing 11 words from my language now.
07:05:15 <adu> I just made a poem he would be proud of
07:05:26 <adu> Desolate flawlessness snags juxtaposed galvanization.
07:05:50 <oklopol> this might be interesting used as the basis of a simulation, where the humanoids being simulated actually had a 2d concept space.
07:06:09 <adu> i know, i lose
07:06:53 <oklopol> i'll need to be going now, still naked and the bus leaves in 10 min.
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11:04:10 <Slereah> Stupid idea : a language with a transformable data structure.
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13:43:57 <Asztal> I knew I'd seen ehird somewhere before
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15:24:46 <ehird> Slereah: did you get qq working :p
15:25:24 <Slereah> And I was working on another stupid idea
15:25:29 -!- ehird has set topic: TOPIC NOSTALGIA! (topic from 2004/01/05) 'Why is there an 'L' in Noel? || Because "Noël" is prettier than an "L"? Errr... || Celebrate Mungday!' || We are rebellious, and thus anger freenode by not having the logs in the url.
15:25:33 -!- ehird has set topic: TOPIC NOSTALGIA! (topic from 2004/01/05) 'Why is there an 'L' in Noel? || Because "Noël" is prettier than an "L"? Errr... || Celebrate Mungday!' || We are rebellious, and thus anger freenode by not having the logs in the topic.
15:25:53 <Slereah> The idea being, you start your program with one data structure, a string, which is the program itself.
15:26:18 <Slereah> Then, you create moar. Strings, stacks, queues, tapes, whathaveyous. You modify them, make them interact and all.
15:26:40 <Slereah> and everytime the original structure is modified, the program counter goes back to 0.
15:27:12 <Slereah> It would make for some pretty short quines and self-interpreter.
15:30:42 <Slereah> Well, imagine you want to do a CAT program.
15:30:55 <Slereah> First, you create a string.
15:31:35 <Slereah> It's the second structure, so it has number 1. You make it the current.
15:31:56 <Slereah> Then, you input something on it, and you output it.
15:32:33 <Slereah> And then, you change the first structure (the program itself), by repeating it.
15:33:07 <Slereah> (N,s) 1 i o 0 "(N,s) 1 i o 0 "(N,s) 1 i o 0 ""
15:33:20 <ehird> give me a soucre file
15:33:25 <ehird> and i probably will
15:33:27 <Slereah> Thinking about it, it might not work.
15:33:57 <Slereah> Maybe I should copy the program on some string and paste it back.
15:34:08 <Asztal> ehird: have you visited hoodwink'd before? this explains why I recognised your name.
15:34:15 <ehird> Asztal: yes, i haev
15:34:28 <ehird> that was quite a while ago though
15:35:57 <Slereah> Creates one string, two, uses the first one to input something and output it, then the program is copypasted in the second and viceversa
15:38:25 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:39:08 <ais523> I had the following problem: transmit a lot of binary files to a distant terminal
15:39:13 <ais523> where basically no software was installed
15:39:17 -!- MommeMC has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
15:39:25 <ais523> and the only connection I could use was via telnet
15:39:52 <ais523> so I invented the .tar.gz.sh format to transmit binary as plaintext
15:40:15 <ais523> it has lots of lines starting printf '\x40\x41\x42...`\ and so on
15:40:36 <ais523> >>ing to the output file, and starting with a new printf every now and then to get round argument-length limits
15:40:45 <Slereah> I discovered salt, and invented FM radio.
15:40:58 <ais523> I had actually written a self-uudecode application before, but it only ran on DOS
15:41:04 <ais523> and produced a plain-text .COM file as the output
15:41:53 <ehird> you should have made it a .shar
15:42:22 <ais523> there were problems with what apps were available at the other end...
15:42:34 <ais523> sed was there, but it was a stripped down version that didn't accept \x escapes
15:42:40 <ais523> so I aimed at printf instead
15:43:03 <ehird> it's just a shell script
15:43:11 <ehird> except, it's STANDARD unlike your format
15:43:14 <ehird> apart from the escape things
15:43:23 <ehird> but you would be innovating instead of relplacing! ;)
15:44:31 <ais523> shar needs uudecode to work
15:44:40 <ais523> and I already pointed out that there was no uudecode at the other end
15:45:13 <ehird> shar uses uudecode?
15:45:32 * ais523 was actually looking at its output a few seconds before they wrote that
15:45:38 <ais523> and | uudecode was definitely there
15:46:16 <ehird> though it doesn't encrypt the binary either
15:46:48 <ais523> I'm beginning to dream of making a portable-to-as-many-OSs as possible uudecode suite
15:46:58 <ais523> all the programs in the suite are written in plain text in an appropriate language
15:47:18 <ais523> and the OS at the other end doesn't need any software that isn't standard for it to do the uudecoding
15:47:33 <ais523> the idea is that you can transmit someone a uudecode binary, and then use it from then on
15:51:11 <ehird> ais523: so... just implementing uudecode in minimal sh essentially?
15:51:45 <ais523> although it's hardly a golfer's implementation
15:52:05 * ais523 has had an idea for a Golf contest that obviously comes out of this discussion
15:52:25 <ehird> ais523: uudecode isn't a hard algorithm
15:52:44 <ehird> with standard base POSIX utils + bourne-compatible sh, it would be easy
16:00:09 <ais523> I'm just wondering how you'd do the bitwise arithmetic
16:00:21 <ais523> anyway, I've entered the Golf submission
16:01:00 -!- helios24 has joined.
16:01:41 <ais523> sample output is the man page for uuencode/decode
16:01:49 -!- timotiis has joined.
16:01:58 <ehird> ais523: lookup table would be best, probably
16:02:02 <ehird> quickest, for shell
16:02:31 <ais523> anyway, my complicated method worked
16:02:33 <ehird> ais523: i think you could do it in maybe 250 lines
16:02:49 <ais523> that would be a better self-uudecode program
16:03:01 <ais523> then the self-uudecode suite could do DOS and POSIXes
16:03:16 <ais523> and because Windows can emulate DOS, that would cover most commonly used OSs
16:03:17 <ehird> ais523: have you noticed that barely any of your underloda submissions are real
16:03:26 <ehird> ais523: also i don't ever consider dos
16:03:30 <ais523> I made the sample outputs too easy to cheat on
16:03:32 <ehird> if it's not unix i don't care about it
16:03:55 <ais523> and ehird: on Windows I use the DOS versions of the GNU utilities for everyday work, when at home and for some reason using Windows
16:04:11 <ais523> so just like Mac and Linux users, I can use ls, cp and emacs running via bash
16:04:45 <ehird> ais523: uudecode will be easy to cheat on
16:04:53 <ehird> figure out a simple way to compress the manpage, print it out
16:04:59 <ehird> you should have added more examples
16:05:15 <ais523> there's enough info there that it's likely that a genuine solution will be shorter
16:05:35 <ehird> ais523: meh. also, is a uuencode script worth it?
16:05:39 <ais523> and I tried 'man uudecode' as a submission, it doesn't work because neither uudecode nor man are installed
16:05:54 <ais523> what do you mean by your 'long' one?
16:10:49 <ais523> worth it for what, in that case?
16:11:04 <ehird> ais523: should i write a uuencode
16:11:08 <ehird> or is it mostly pointless
16:11:26 <ais523> write a program that does both depending on what name it's invoked as
16:11:43 <ais523> or even better, figures it from its command line arguments and input
16:12:56 <ais523> but uudecode is much more useful because you can use it to send a uuencode binary
16:15:23 <Slereah> I wonder, are there ways to do binary operations on your hands?
16:15:42 <ehird> If you use finger down = 0
16:15:55 <Slereah> But to do operations on the numbers.
16:15:58 <ehird> bitshifting is just shuffling your fingers.
16:16:23 <Slereah> It would be a good way for dealign with big numbers, since it can go up to 1023
16:17:40 <Slereah> Although I guess it would be better to keep it under 32, to have two hands to do it.
16:20:08 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_binary
16:20:17 <Slereah> Wikipedia, is there anything you can't do?
16:20:36 <ais523> that one surprised even me
16:21:09 <Slereah> It's like that brainsphere in Futurama.
16:21:30 <Slereah> Every information in the universe!
16:22:56 <Slereah> Although I still wonder if there's any algorithm usable on that handcounting
16:25:29 <Slereah> Matching fingers go down :o
16:25:47 <Slereah> And single fingers get paired
16:26:41 <Slereah> Bitwise and would just be single fingers go down.
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16:28:36 <ais523> ADD ONE TO COBOL GIVING COBOL
16:28:54 <olsner> heh, cobol with lazy evaluation ;-)
16:28:57 <ehird> COBOL = ++COBOL + COBOL++
16:29:03 <Slereah> Problem with finger-bitwise operation is, it's hard to keep just any finger up
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16:29:14 <ais523> functional COBOL would be quite a sight to behold
16:29:25 <Slereah> Like the flaming gates of hell?
16:30:15 <olsner> actually I think it'd be better than plain cobol in most ways
16:30:23 <Slereah> Is it possible to build some arithmetics from bitwise operations?
16:30:28 <ais523> most things would be better than plain cobol
16:30:33 <ehird> olsner: not quite cobol with lazy evaluation, if you say COBOL already has a value
16:30:44 <ais523> and Slereah: yes, with a certain relaxing of the meaning of 'bitwise'
16:30:48 <ehird> that's just COBOL++, then, ergo 'object-oriented' (sorry, alan kay) cobol
16:30:49 <ais523> that's what's done in INTERCAL
16:31:01 <ais523> although admittedly most arithmetic requires a loop
16:31:16 <Slereah> Well, with fingers, loops wouldn't be too much trouble
16:31:26 <Slereah> You got a hooman supervising most of them
16:32:01 <Slereah> Just wondering if you can build some simple arithmetics with finger binary
16:32:49 <olsner> ehird: no, but it kind of looked like one of those let x = ... in ... x ... constructions familiar from haskell one-liners
16:33:13 <Slereah> Does the building of arithmetics via bitwise have a particular name?
16:33:22 <ehird> Slereah: 'insanity'
16:33:38 <Slereah> Yes, but, you know, a more professional lame
16:34:03 <ais523> (1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
16:34:03 <ais523> the shortest addition command I've yet found in INTERCAL that doesn't reference the standard library
16:34:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:34:23 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:35:00 <ais523> and requires several extensions to be implemented properly
16:35:26 <olsner> Slereah: you could try looking for half adders and full adders, the digital circuits for addition - connect n full-adders and you can do n-bit addition
16:35:41 <Slereah> I'll google it, thank you.
16:35:52 <Slereah> Well, I also can't read Japanese and Malbolge
16:36:06 <Slereah> It's just, you know, lack of skill acquisition in the area
16:36:08 <ais523> INTERCAL isn't too bad when you get used to it
16:36:17 <ais523> it helps if you use a fixed-width font
16:36:22 <Slereah> Much like the HAUNTED AUSCHWITZ :O
16:36:22 <ais523> so you can tell apart ' and " easily
16:36:49 <Slereah> "Adder (snake), a family of snakes."
16:37:27 <ais523> incidentally, I've been working on the concept of a combined Unlambda/Underload/Brainfuck language
16:37:40 <ais523> Underload and Brainfuck are actually not too hard to mix
16:37:47 <ais523> Unlambda and Brainfuck are somewhat harder
16:38:09 <Slereah> Isn't there already some brainfuck-unlambda mix?
16:38:41 * ais523 had forgotten about 0x29A
16:38:51 <ais523> but it has many significant differences from Unlambda
16:39:05 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
16:39:16 <ais523> !ul (Does this still work?)S
16:39:16 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:39:26 <ais523> that wasn't meant to happen
16:39:26 -!- EgoBot has joined.
16:39:54 <ais523> !daemon ul bf http://pastebin.ca/raw/367774
16:39:59 <olsner> oh, is it a functional stack language?
16:40:00 <ais523> !ul (Hopefully working now.)S
16:40:02 <EgoBot> Hopefully working now.
16:40:14 <ais523> which is like functional but even more elegant in my opinion
16:40:20 <Slereah> Hm.I might not have enough hands to do addition with my hands
16:40:23 <ais523> you can write functionally in it, but don't have to
16:40:50 <ais523> well, you can't write in any other known paradigm than functional/concatenative, but there are some weird unknown paradigms you can use
16:42:25 <ehird> <daYZman> does anyone know of an online lisp parser that shows the parse tree?
16:42:53 <olsner> heh, that's basically just a web interface for cat
16:44:12 <Slereah> I don't regret making the folding function on Python. Always useful for tapes!
16:44:29 <Slereah> Fifth time I'm reusing it.
16:45:35 <ehird> its standard pyhon, folding.
16:45:55 <Slereah> Is it the Z ---> N function?
16:46:27 <ehird> reduce(func,[1,2,3]) -> func(1,func(2,func(3)))
16:46:38 <ehird> reduce(func,x,[1,2,3]) -> func(1,func(2,func(3,x)))
16:47:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:47:28 <Slereah> Folding function is [..., -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, ...] -> [0, -1, 1, -2, 2, -3, 3, ...]
16:47:43 <Slereah> Easier to make infinite tapes or infinite grids.
16:55:16 <ehird> olsner: or foldl, i dunno
16:55:37 <ehird> reduce(lambda x,y:x-y, [1,2,3])
16:55:49 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:56:09 * ais523 was having connection problems
16:56:17 <ais523> and so switched to a different connection
16:56:34 <ais523> which involved physically moving to a different location, therefore the wait
16:57:51 <ais523> also, I accidentally renamed all the files in my home directory to be lowercase
16:57:59 <ais523> and then wondered why all my desktop icons had disappeared
16:58:19 <olsner> yeah, connection problems often lead to having your files renamed?
16:58:44 <ais523> they were separate issues
16:58:48 <Slereah> Holistic technical support
16:58:54 <ais523> I have a shell-script to rename all the files in a directory to be lowercase
16:59:00 <ais523> and ran it in the wrong directory by default
16:59:27 <olsner> dangerous script, that
16:59:57 <ais523> but it's so annoying to transfer files from Windows and have them all be in uppercase
17:00:09 <ais523> it really needs to chmod a-x the files that aren't really executable, too
17:00:19 <ais523> for some reason Windows sets +x on every file by default...
17:00:23 <olsner> I think you can fix that with the proper mount flags
17:01:14 * ais523 remembers a Windows sysadmin trying to install a program
17:01:26 <ais523> it failed because he had permissions to create files in a directory but not to rename them
17:01:37 <ais523> so it was full of executables with names like oiaewrca.tmp
17:02:15 <olsner> hmm, but how can you be a sysadmin without administration privileges on the machines you're supposed to admin?
17:02:30 <ais523> he did have administration privileges
17:02:40 <ais523> but on Windows, even admins are limited by permissions
17:03:01 <ais523> they can change permissions to allow themselves to do things, but can't do everything by default
17:03:19 <ais523> probably because most Windows XP users ran as administrator all the time but still needed to be prevented from doing stupid things
17:04:15 <ais523> I was actually doing some rather 'stupid things' today, like typing rm /var/log at a root prompt
17:04:33 <ais523> it was on an embedded system, and I was removing a symlink to /tmp ...
17:05:39 <ais523> apt-cache search brainfuck: 4 results, all relevant to some extent
17:05:57 <ais523> apt-cache search unlambda: 1 result, which is relevant
17:06:15 <ais523> apt-cache search intercal: 2 results, the 2 main modern INTERCAL compilers
17:06:28 <ehird> macports has no esoteric stuff
17:06:30 <ais523> apt-cache search befunge: 0. I'm disappointed
17:06:44 <ehird> maybe we need the ePMS (esoteric package management system)
17:06:58 <ehird> [the pun came about naturally but let's say it was intentional from the start]
17:08:22 * ais523 goes and installs all those packages
17:08:38 <ais523> apart from clc-intercal and unlambda, which I already have installed, and intercal, which I develop and so have a newer version of
17:10:09 <olsner> our project management system at work is called Project Management System, i.e. PMS :P
17:11:35 * ais523 just got a relevant result for apt-cache search perligata
17:11:49 <ais523> anyone know of any other esolangs I can fetch like this?
17:11:57 <ehird> ais523: with ePMS, everything!
17:12:03 <ehird> the only problem is implementing it :P
17:12:30 <ais523> how is http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters doing?
17:12:51 <ais523> we need to get that full of links, really
17:14:20 <Slereah> I can post the Brainfuck on a Turing machine one if you want
17:15:09 <olsner> any nice small string rewriting esolangs out there? thinking of writing an interpreter in mod_rewrite
17:15:26 <ehird> or thutu for something more complex but more usable
17:15:36 <ehird> ais523: also i've pretty much narrowed down the Underload compiler reimplementation langugaes to two: haskell or common lisp
17:15:39 <ehird> ais523: pick one. :p
17:15:54 <ais523> if it's not an esolang, let's go for Haskell
17:16:24 <olsner> you don't know about haskell? you should try it out, it's sweet
17:16:36 <ais523> I do know about Haskell
17:16:54 <ais523> and I'm a big fan, if slightly disappointed that there's no easy way to write a mockingbird
17:16:59 <ais523> but I'm not very good at it
17:17:05 <olsner> "if it's not an esolang, ..."?
17:17:11 <ais523> I meant 'if we're not writing this in an esolang'
17:17:30 <ehird> ais523: that would be painful. or optimizations
17:17:45 <ehird> the thing about haskell is that this program has some mutability at the core which i haven't figured out how to refactor out
17:17:48 <ehird> now, i could use a state monad
17:17:58 <olsner> I read it as "what's this haskell? as long as it's not an esolang, let's take it"
17:18:05 <ehird> but it's really anti-haskell if it isn't really truly fundamentally *state*
17:18:34 <ehird> also, lisp may be easier for ais523 to grok than haskell :-) it's really a choice of which type of alienation is better
17:18:46 <olsner> underload :: Stack -> (String, Stack)
17:18:50 <ais523> I understand both, just am not used to either
17:19:17 <ehird> olsner: the way we compile it is... a bit hard to grok
17:19:19 <ehird> it involves 'blimps'
17:19:37 <ais523> and wouldn't it be (String, Stack) -> (String, Stack) or possibly IO String -> Stack?
17:20:15 <olsner> does underload have input?
17:20:17 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Lore2.txt
17:20:28 <Slereah> Here's a broad outline of my horrible horrible idea
17:20:46 <ais523> but you need to input the program
17:20:56 <ehird> if it had input equiv. to (inputted text) it'd be uncompilable
17:21:00 <ais523> so it could be just String -> (String, Stack)
17:21:09 <Slereah> Hm. Forgot to add the "1" after (N,s) in the example programs
17:21:15 <olsner> ah, yes, forgot the part about the input program
17:21:17 <ehird> thankfully ais523 says that all input stuff would be:
17:21:28 <ais523> if I get round to writing a new version
17:21:43 <ais523> or I can just make the Unlambda/Underload/Brainfuck language and use Brainfuck's . for input
17:23:20 <ais523> which would input a Church numeral replacing the current TOS
17:24:16 <ehird> ais523: so -- take your pick, you can either have a lot of parens or crazy, terse awesomeness
17:24:49 <ehird> unfortunately to do the optimizations we want we need to parse it
17:25:00 <ehird> which also means storing the originating code in Push parse tree segments
17:25:06 <ehird> which is, aggrevating
17:25:18 <ais523> I still favour Haskell for this
17:26:42 <ehird> ais523: i'm going to delete the Makefile, but not underload.scm because i need it for a reference to write the code on
17:27:01 <ais523> I'll save a backup on my own computer for my own amusement
17:27:09 <ehird> ais523: you can always check out a previous revision
17:27:26 <ehird> speaking of VCS... are you sure you don't have darcs? svn is driving me crazy :P
17:27:56 <ehird> olsner: this is a good point, beforehand ais523 couldn't install anything though
17:28:02 <ais523> I starded doing that as soon as I saw ehird's comment
17:28:37 <ais523> now I'm on my own computer, I can be a lot more flexible
17:28:45 <ehird> the bendy kind of flexible?
17:28:49 <ehird> i don't see what computers have to do with that
17:29:03 <olsner> darcs has a pretty low barrier to entry really, took like 30 minutes to get going
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17:29:28 <olsner> no funky databases, servers or any of that crud
17:29:52 <ais523> flexible in that I have no reasonable excuse not to act exactly according to ehird's orders
17:30:08 <ehird> quick darcs primer:
17:30:13 <ehird> - there is no central repository
17:30:20 <ehird> - your _darcs dir has the whole history, isn't that nice
17:30:37 <ehird> - it's distributed, basically you pull and push tons of servers in a tangly web of metapatterns or something
17:30:48 <ehird> - we'll just emulate a distributed server by putting a copy on my VCS
17:30:53 <ehird> - and giving push/pull rights to that
17:31:01 <ehird> - conflicts are easily resolvable, because darcs is clever
17:31:13 <ehird> - it's interactive: when your record a patch it asks which changes you want to record
17:31:18 <ehird> (but you can tell it to record everything)
17:31:32 <ehird> - record != push: you need to push to share your changes
17:31:35 <ehird> end of darcs primer
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17:31:56 <ais523> I'm sure I'll get used to it in a bit
17:32:19 <ehird> ais523: because i'm lazy i'm not setting up a secure darcs push... so you get an ssh account on my server, i hope you feel special
17:33:30 <olsner> how would you set up a darcs push without giving shell access?
17:33:41 <ehird> olsner: i'm not sure, but meh
17:34:10 <ehird> darcs-server, probably.
17:34:40 <ehird> darcs-server in debian is the cgi
17:36:13 <olsner> I guess the secure way is to darcs send things to an e-mail and let some maintainer person apply after review
17:36:29 <ehird> ais523: now you need to give me a password :P in /msg
17:36:37 <ehird> olsner: yes, well, that's not quite rapid enough for me :-)
17:36:41 <olsner> I've heard of e-mail services with GPG-based authentification of patches
17:36:55 <olsner> but still, ssh-access is probably still easiest
17:39:14 <ehird> lol, $ sudo chmod 777 darcs
17:40:08 <ehird> darcs failed: Failed to download URL ssh://elliotthird.org//home/darcs/underload/_darcs/inventory : unsupported protocol
17:40:28 <ehird> darcs get elliotthird.org:/home/darcs/underload underl
17:40:37 <olsner> isn't user@host:path the syntax for ssh? yeah :P
17:42:02 * ais523 ran that command, and it apparently worked
17:43:04 <ehird> remove that dir, i need to get the repo up first
17:43:15 <ehird> ais523: by the way, if you use emacs, you'll want this: http://chneukirchen.org/repos/darcsum/darcsum.el
17:43:44 <ais523> and although I use emacs, I generally prefer to exit it and type shell commands to do things like compile or checkin
17:45:32 <ehird> ais523: pff, you might as well use vi ;)
17:45:39 <ehird> when darcs asks you what your email is
17:45:42 <olsner> huh? darcs get worked on a non-repository?
17:45:48 <ehird> answer "Name <email>", not "email"
17:45:54 <ehird> olsner: that is a repository.
17:46:21 <olsner> "remove that dir, i need to get the repo up first"
17:46:31 <ehird> importing all the stuff, etc
17:46:33 <ais523> it was an empty repo, as far as I could tell
17:46:57 * ais523 is annoyed that the following Anarchy Golf quine-by-cheating was rejected: ps -Cps -oargs=
17:47:11 <ehird> sfghdkjlsfgdhlhdfgsdgjlssdfghjkfgsdhjklsdfghjkl darcsum is odd
17:47:14 <ehird> how do i get it to record my changse!
17:49:47 <ehird> darcs get ais523@elliotthird.org:/home/darcs/underload
17:49:57 <ehird> s/ais523@// if that's your username on your computer
17:50:40 <ehird> ais523: By the way, at one time you said you had a way to make some part of prelude.c less recursive
17:50:58 <ehird> olsner: the underload compiler is interesting because at first glance, it seems self-modifying and uncompilable
17:51:01 <ais523> it wasn't less recursive, I don't think, but more efficient
17:51:10 <ehird> ais523: which was it, what were the implications?
17:51:13 <ais523> it would have involved using binary trees rather than lists
17:51:20 <ehird> that's not acceptable
17:51:27 <ehird> it means call isn't tail-recursive
17:51:27 <ais523> which made dup O(1), but the rest of the program much more complicated
17:51:32 <ehird> it'd have to recurse for both branches
17:51:47 <ais523> yes, I couldn't see a way around that introducing recursion
17:51:55 <ehird> and imo that's more serious than dup being kinda slow
17:52:00 <ais523> and also I think it just spread the inefficiency around, so it wouldn't have been worth it anyway
17:54:03 <ehird> olsner: what's the simple way to get a read-only darcs?
17:54:07 <ehird> without setting up an http server
17:54:27 <olsner> ehird: I had a http server laying around and just set up a vhost for darcs
17:54:40 <ehird> olsner: i don't have a server lying around until i get my site up :-)
17:57:20 <ehird> olsner: any other easy way?
17:58:09 <olsner> searching, but it seems that http is the preferred way of getting read-only public access
17:58:23 <ehird> darcs should come with an http server ;)
17:58:48 <ehird> Slereah: define 'got'
17:58:53 <ehird> the interp works? you wrote a program? ..
17:59:24 <Slereah> Error during processing of --eval option (LOAD #P"./run.lisp"):
17:59:24 <Slereah> invalid number of arguments: 0
17:59:38 <ehird> Slereah: pastebin run.lisp
17:59:46 <ehird> Slereah: also, how did you start it?
17:59:57 <Slereah> slereah@Vixem:~/1201049491-qq-v1_0$ ./run.lisp prog.qq
18:00:20 <Slereah> slereah@Vixem:~/1201049491-qq-v1_0$ cat prog.qq
18:00:38 <Slereah> I also tried with only one parethesis
18:00:41 <ehird> you're using old-style commands
18:00:55 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qq will be useful ;)
18:01:16 <Slereah> Stop changing syntax damn you!
18:01:26 <Slereah> Now, to try the big cat program
18:01:39 <olsner> it's really not that hard to set up apache2 and a vhost (or a symlink for ~darcs to go to the right place)
18:01:43 <ehird> um, i forgot Slereah :)
18:01:46 <Slereah> Got it written somewhere, partly
18:01:52 <ehird> olsner: eww, apache
18:02:09 <ehird> ITYM nginx, or lighttpd, or maybe some Lisp server
18:02:23 <olsner> or any other web browser for that matter, since darcs only needs plain http file serving
18:03:14 <olsner> do you also get database errors from esolangs.org?
18:03:16 <ehird> olsner: I should write my own :P
18:03:19 <ehird> olsner: and everyone does
18:03:22 <ais523> olsner: once in a while
18:03:26 <ais523> they go away when you refresh
18:04:04 <ehird> Slereah: just check the wiki to see if your stuff is still right :P
18:04:27 <ehird> lalalla sudo vi /etc/thttpd/thttpd.conf
18:04:37 <Slereah> My big problem is the parenthesis
18:04:42 <Slereah> I'm not too sure where to put them
18:04:49 <ehird> Slereah: like in what case
18:04:59 <Slereah> Let's review this program.
18:05:20 <Slereah> Will 3 (something) convert to (something) (something)?
18:05:33 <Slereah> And the first something will be evaluated first, presumably entierly
18:06:15 <ehird> http://elliotthird.org/ look at thttpd's lovely sense of colour design!
18:06:27 <ehird> olsner: if you want to see the crazy state-stuff that the compiler uses to compile:
18:06:31 <ehird> darcs get http://elliotthird.org/underload/
18:06:38 <ehird> (read only, so ais523 - don't do that :P)
18:07:05 * ais523 looks at it with a web browser instead
18:07:13 <ais523> did you mean to put your bashrc in there?
18:07:31 <ehird> it's serving /home/darcs :)
18:07:44 <ehird> besides it's 403 forbidden
18:07:54 <ehird> and the error page's colours are superb :P
18:08:00 <ehird> it's from 2002, that thttpd :D
18:08:08 <ehird> not a very updated software: but rock solid, and fast
18:08:13 <olsner> do I want prelude.c, postlude.c or underload.scm?
18:08:31 <ais523> all of them are needed for the current version of the compiler
18:08:38 <ais523> underload.scm is the compiler, the other two are data files
18:09:13 <ehird> olsner: prelude.c is all the library functions and structures that the output uses
18:09:21 <ehird> postlude.c is the end of all the c files
18:09:34 <olsner> I show the code to my brain but it refuses to parse although I know that it knows scheme
18:09:37 <ehird> underload.scm compiles an underload program, and sticks it between prelude.c and postlude.c
18:09:47 <ehird> olsner: it's not pretty that's for sure
18:09:50 <olsner> time to get home from work I think!
18:09:52 <ehird> it's imperative scheme with WTF mixed in
18:10:32 <olsner> the name 'blimp' reminds me of haskell's thunks
18:11:22 <ehird> olsner: it's kind of similar
18:11:29 <ehird> the blimps are: a, b, and c
18:11:33 <ehird> and we 'unroll' them
18:11:38 <ehird> so ((a)b)c transforms into:
18:11:49 <ehird> 1=<2>c; 2=<3>b; 3=a
18:12:04 <ehird> we do this because we need to compile them as C code, and also retain their strings
18:12:12 <ehird> so <2> looks like:
18:12:28 <ehird> and the whole program is a switch statement dispatching on blimp numbers
18:12:35 <ehird> in a function, so we can handle non-tail-calls too
18:13:50 <ehird> olsner: which is why we have ugly code
18:13:52 <ehird> handling that unrolling.
18:14:25 <olsner> sounds like something you might be able to use a tie-the-knot technique on
18:14:49 <ehird> olsner: is that really a programming technique?
18:15:16 <olsner> it's all those cool haskell tricks where you build a value that depends on itself
18:16:02 <ehird> olsner: how would i use that in THIS case...?
18:16:31 <olsner> dunno, I don't even understand how the language we're compiling works yet ;-)
18:16:41 <ehird> olsner: another thing is that i want to generate a parse tree, but for (...) i need to store the string ... as well as its parse tree
18:16:44 <ehird> which is gonna be a pain
18:16:48 <ehird> olsner: the wiki can help
18:16:58 <ais523> as can the online interpreter
18:19:03 -!- Corun has joined.
18:21:14 <olsner> well, gotta run now, cya
18:21:19 * Slereah 's writing sum Lore interpreter
18:21:27 -!- olsner has quit ("leaving").
18:22:54 -!- RedDak has joined.
18:31:24 <ehird> http://forums.devshed.com/database-management-46/ddate-discordian-date-problems-321852.html this is too surreal not to be true
18:52:54 <ehird> ais523: you alive? :)
18:53:41 <ais523> I've developed a trick of making my terminal window slightly transparent so that I can see IRC through it
18:53:50 <ais523> proper 'I SAID YOUR NAME beeps would still be useful, though...'
18:54:46 -!- ehercd has joined.
18:55:01 <ehercd> and perhaps a bit over the top, but hey, it'll beep for you..
18:55:13 <ehercd> I wonder what would happen if i (dissociated-press)'d right now
18:56:03 <ehird> *** #esoteric: topic set by not having the logs in the topic
18:57:04 <ehercd> ais523: that was what dissociated-press had to say about this erc buffer
18:57:29 <ais523> I thought you were actually trying to make sense
18:57:42 <ehercd> ais523: you know what dissociated-press is right?
18:57:52 <ehercd> it's an implementation of dissociated press, which is a character-based markov chain
18:58:00 <ehercd> and you apply it to a buffer.
18:59:01 <ehercd> Because "Noël" is prettier than the thusers on #esociated-press)'d right?
19:00:19 <Asztal> character-based, rather than word based? I wouldn't guess that would actually work in practice, without a fairly long chain..
19:00:30 <ehercd> Asztal: it 'works' sofar as it produces funny crap
19:00:41 <ehercd> Asztal: try reading dissociated-press.el, but I warn you: Emacs Lisp is not happy fun time
19:01:00 <Asztal> I've done a markov bot but it made chains of words
19:01:17 <ehercd> I have done that too. I think everyone has.
19:01:24 <ehercd> I am going to refine it in Lisp sometime.
19:01:24 <Asztal> I guess that's why it came up with "thusers"
19:02:01 <ehercd> Asztal: you do need relatively big files, though, in practice
19:02:42 <ehercd> Gah. I want M-x firefox
19:02:52 <ehercd> I just tried M-> in Safari.
19:03:19 <ehercd> guess I should try conkeror
19:07:59 -!- ehercd has left (?).
19:19:51 -!- olsner has joined.
19:20:18 * ais523 has written a maze solver in GolfScript, but it times out if I set the number of iterations high enough to actually solve the maze
19:20:26 <ehird> hmm, maybe the best thing for an emacs-webbrowser,
19:20:32 <ehird> is creating a sort of 'base-emacs'
19:20:37 <ais523> probably because the GolfScript implementation on Anarchy Golf is so slow
19:20:37 <ehird> emacs sans the editor, kind of
19:20:48 <ehird> the basic app infrastructure
19:20:55 <ehird> and some basic concepts like 'frame'
19:21:04 <ehird> and a gui abstraction
19:21:09 <ehird> and a default set of keybindings
19:21:14 <ehird> and then, building apps on top of that:
19:21:17 <ehird> editor, web browser, irc client
19:21:36 <ehird> kind of like 'emacs, planned as it would have been if it was started aiming for what it is today, but cleaner'
19:28:43 <olsner> wow, frappr was useless
19:29:22 <ehird> anyone have opinions on my emacs-base thing? it's pretty esoteric i might say :P
19:29:35 <olsner> stuck in som kind of weird slideshow, and the only place I can put a pin is Null in Texass
19:30:14 <ais523> ehird: that might just be Common Lisp with a windowing library...
19:30:30 <ehird> ais523: it would have loads of infrastructure.
19:30:42 <ehird> ais523: like, standard keybindings by default
19:30:47 <ehird> ways to represent concepts
19:30:50 <ehird> (frame, buffer, etc)
19:31:04 <ehird> CL already has a gui interface btw and it's standard: CLIM
19:31:11 <ehird> with the most-developed impl being McCLIM
19:31:14 <ehird> but it's not very nice. IMO.
19:31:17 <ehird> and Climacs is kinda sucky
19:31:21 <ehird> so: i think a restart is in order
19:31:38 <ehird> ais523: pluggability of the gui lib would be important too: for using gecko for the web browser
19:38:26 <olsner> wow, frappr now takes all keypresses twice
19:41:38 <ehird> oklopol: how about you comment on my emacs-base idea! :P
19:42:33 <oklopol> i'll comment once my friend leaves
19:42:40 <oklopol> he talks all the time, can't irc
19:42:52 <ehird> you don't want him to know that you read things with 'emacs' in? :P
19:43:31 <olsner> emacs should be removed, not rewritten... but I guess that can be construed as motivation for doing it
19:43:54 * ais523 has discovered a new Golfing trick, which owes much to Underload
19:44:10 <ais523> to do something $x times, eval'something;'x$x
19:44:30 <ais523> works the same way that Church numerals can create loops
19:44:56 <ehird> in ruby, it's basically literally what you said:
19:45:15 <ehird> ooer, i don't know how to replicate a string.
19:46:23 <ais523> in lisp you could do it with progn and replicating a lisp
19:46:38 <ehird> you could also use literal eval..
19:46:48 <ehird> You know... Lisp invented it? ;)
19:46:55 <Asztal> 1 character shorter than "x.times{something}", although much sorter if 'something' is dynamic
19:47:02 <ais523> although it was possible in machine code all along
19:47:13 <ehird> ais523: Uh, Lisp invented the eval function.
19:47:30 <ais523> in machine code, goto or gosub serve the same function
19:47:50 <ais523> you just jump into your data, and it's evaluated!
19:48:31 <ehird> (defmacro (times n &body body) (if (= n 1) body `(progn ,body (times ,(- n 1) ,@(cdr body))))
19:48:50 <ehird> yeah, i know i'm going to hell
19:49:03 <ehird> (defmacro times (n &body body) (if (= n 1) body `(progn ,body (times ,(- n 1) ,@(cdr body)))))
19:49:35 <ehird> (defmacro times (n &body body) (if (= n 1) body `(progn ,@body (times ,(- n 1) ,@(cdr body)))))
19:50:25 <ehird> (defmacro times (n &body body) (if (= n 1) body `(progn ,@body (times ,(- n 1) ,@body))))
19:50:54 <ehird> (defmacro times (n &body body) (if (= n 1) `(progn ,@body) `(progn ,@body (times ,(- n 1) ,@body))))
19:51:16 <ehird> return value magick:
19:58:45 <oklopol> ehird: i still don't know much about emacs, but i agree anything grandioso and awesome is kinda cool.
19:58:57 <ehird> (defmacro times-helper (n &body body)
19:58:57 <ehird> `((progn ,@body) ,@(macroexpand `(times-helper ,(- n 1) ,@body)))))
19:58:58 <ehird> (defmacro times (n &body body)
19:58:58 <ehird> `(values ,@(macroexpand `(times-helper ,n ,@body))))
19:59:02 <ehird> sorry for the flood
19:59:07 <ehird> but there's your compile-time (TIMES n ...)
20:01:08 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
20:02:36 <ehird> oklopol: not that hard, just read what i said :p
20:02:44 <ehird> hm, it would be quite a bit porjcet, wouldn't it
20:04:06 <ehird> ais523: i'm flooding quite a bit aren't i?
20:05:42 <ehird> ais523: you know, golfscript isn't actually that compact
20:05:47 <ehird> + it loses in speed benchmakrs
20:06:12 <ehird> we need a language that takes some few really strange operators, and mangles them in fun ways to create insanely compact code, implemented in efficient C
20:06:35 <ais523> I'm well aware that golfscript can be improved upon
20:06:58 <ais523> I've been working on a language for a long time designed for similar purposes that I think would do better in length, although probably not in speed
20:07:04 <ais523> Underload is a tarpit version of it
20:07:14 <ais523> but the full version has never been implemented or even properly documented
20:07:32 <oklopol> golfscript? i bet cise owns that
20:13:26 <ehird> ais523: perhaps not always using the stack is an idea for conciseness
20:13:50 <ais523> the stack leads to RPN, which tends to be short
20:14:02 <ais523> but having commands for 'double TOS' rather than having to write 2* might help in some cases
20:14:40 <ehird> ais523: yes, a standard prelude can be written
20:14:45 <ehird> ais523: but, infix can also shorten code
20:14:52 <ehird> but infix can cut down on the spaces
20:15:04 <ehird> also, it can remove quoting
20:15:20 <ehird> "hello" 'foo {doohickey}
20:15:28 <ehird> where 'blah is a quote
20:15:33 <ehird> with infix that's:
20:15:36 <ehird> "hello"{doohickey}foo
20:15:43 <ehird> because {doohickey} can quote the foo itself
20:15:43 <ais523> the way mine worked no commands were longer than one character, so spaces weren't needed
20:15:52 <ehird> ais523: that can lead to problems though
20:15:54 <ais523> there was a wimpmode for decimals
20:16:03 <oklopol> it's just "stack manipulation" is easier to comprehend than "high-order functions" in most cases
20:16:05 <ais523> although I should probably add a command for arbitrary high number if it's being used for golfing
20:16:05 <ehird> when you have a really useful command but are running out
20:16:12 <ehird> so: 1 = most used for compactness
20:16:23 <ehird> and ofc decimals indeed
20:16:26 <ais523> I'm not near running out of letters yet
20:16:30 <ais523> and some commands were multiple letters
20:16:36 <ehird> ais523: one thing that is NEEDED
20:16:41 <ehird> is a way to extend the parser, in some way
20:16:43 <ehird> to add new infix ops
20:16:46 <ais523> due to z and Z being modifiers on the next command, and other similarities
20:16:49 <ehird> x=5 must be possibly
20:16:57 <ehird> which is only possible by defining = to be a special kind of token.
20:17:14 <ais523> are you talking about variable assignment?
20:17:16 <ehird> ais523: this also means much of the stdlib can be written in itself
20:17:29 <ais523> much of the stdlib /is/ written in itself in my unfinished implementation
20:17:40 <ais523> and many of those are commented out with some faster C++ code next to them...
20:17:52 <ehird> ais523: maybe ideas from yours could help form UltimateGolfLangugaeThing?
20:17:59 <ais523> I pretty much abandoned the C++ version, though, even though it was the most complete, because it was getting unmaintainable
20:18:26 <ais523> new commands can be defined pretty easily, by the way; so to define x to be y, you could write 'y'x#
20:18:36 <ais523> 'a is equivalent to (a)
20:18:44 <ais523> saves one char in a common situation...
20:18:55 <ehird> ultimategolflanguagething:
20:19:07 <ehird> code terminated by, ehh, let's just say ;
20:19:25 <ehird> is the function const(4)
20:19:34 <ehird> though i am thinking that + will be binary
20:19:48 <ehird> if you want a postfix version of a binop, prefix it with `
20:19:57 <ehird> ais523: seems good to me
20:20:04 <ais523> in my case, if you really wanted to add 2 and 2 and save it in a command, it would be something like (22+)'f#
20:20:24 <ehird> ais523: 2+2 is evaluated when you call foo
20:20:26 <ehird> it's just a function
20:20:36 <ais523> (22+) quotes the command, just like in Underload
20:20:46 <ehird> ^^ that takes advantage of partial evaluation ^^
20:20:49 <ais523> gives you an add-2 function
20:21:09 <ehird> foo:+2; would also work
20:21:26 <ehird> because numeric literals are positive by default
20:21:27 <ais523> but then you have two commands that do the same thing, which is bad for conciseness
20:21:30 <ehird> so you can't use +foo on them
20:21:38 <ehird> foo:-3; probably won't work, obviously
20:21:42 <ais523> my language didn't /have/ negative numbers
20:21:43 <ehird> foo:3-; will though
20:21:49 <ehird> ais523: they are useful
20:21:53 <ais523> I found they were rarely needed and confusing
20:21:56 <ehird> we're thinking about golf here
20:22:08 <ais523> but how do you execute something a negative number of times?
20:22:18 <ehird> probably by triggering an error.
20:22:27 <ehird> anyway, as soon as i figure out a language name maybe we should move to a different channel, it's getting floody in here
20:23:04 <ais523> make a channel called something like #esoteric_flood where we can flood all we like
20:23:18 <ehird> mainly for bots, but basically 'crap'
20:23:22 <ais523> we may as well go there, then
20:23:22 <ehird> but - not good for discussion
20:23:33 <ais523> well make one which is for discussion but floodable
20:23:47 <ehird> at that point i might as well just make one for the language :P
20:23:59 <Asztal> #moderatelyrainyesoteric
20:23:59 <ehird> if only golfscript wasn't taken
20:24:35 <ais523> well, my language was called Overload, due to the massive overloading of the operators and due to the way a simple program could easily overload a computer if not optimised
20:24:44 <ehird> ais523: now I get underload
20:24:45 <ais523> and Underload was a tarpit version of it...
20:24:58 <ehird> i am male, Slereah
20:25:32 <ehird> ais523: how does v^ sound as a name? :P
20:25:42 <ehird> 1. it looks like some kind of mountain, if you squint your eyes
20:25:46 <ehird> 2. it's two directions
20:25:49 <ehird> 3. it's unpronouncable
20:25:58 <ehird> 4. nobody will ever figure out a file extension
20:26:04 * ais523 pronounces it as v followed by a kind of hiccup
20:26:48 <ais523> by a piece of music composition software for Windows I was using a while ago
20:26:54 <ais523> the so what is that I actually knew what it was used for
20:26:57 <Slereah> One day, I will make a file extension for NTCM
20:26:58 <ais523> but I agree with the so what
20:27:16 <ais523> BTW, does anyone know of an Unlambda debugger?
20:27:26 <ais523> I'm having a bit of trouble with a program I've been working on for a while
20:29:57 <ais523> give it a zero-length name
20:30:00 <ais523> due to the shortness of it
20:30:11 <ais523> although I like that suggestion
20:30:26 <ehird> eh, ok, here are the options:
20:30:27 <ais523> my regexp language has negative-length strings
20:30:34 <ais523> so you could use one of those
20:30:43 <ehird> foocode, fucode, codeFu, golFu, fugolf, <something else ais523 suggests>
20:31:07 <ehird> but kind of hard to interpret the first time you look at it
20:31:10 <ehird> (kind of like the language then)
20:32:21 <ehird> i don't really like fucode
20:33:40 <ehird> and foocode isn't too hot - agreed?
20:34:28 <ais523> foocode is just a bit meh
20:34:59 <ehird> what about fugolf?
20:35:06 <ehird> i don't like the sound of it, even in fuGolf form
20:35:17 <ais523> and it's not at all obvious what you're getting at
20:35:26 <ais523> the -fu suffix is much more recognisable at the end of a name
20:35:42 <ehird> codeFu, golFu, golfFu (repetition but nicer than golFu maybe), <other>
20:36:29 <ehird> ais523: kind of a pain to type
20:36:33 <ehird> also try to pronounce it
20:37:08 <ais523> I agree about the typing difficulty, though
20:37:30 <ehird> ok, so we're still at what i said last time =P
20:37:46 <Asztal> golfu just sounds japanese to me.
20:38:38 -!- ais523 has set topic: TOPIC NOSTALGIA! (topic from 2004/01/05) 'Why is there an 'L' in Noel? || Because "Noël" is prettier than an "L"? Errr... || Celebrate Mungday!' || We are rebellious, and thus anger freenode by not mentioning the logs in the topic.
20:38:48 <ais523> for better paradoxicality
20:38:51 <ehird> wait you didn't even change the topic xD
20:39:12 <ehird> codeFu, golFu, ninjaFu, <other>
20:39:48 <ais523> do you think it's a good idea to mention golfing in the lang's name or not?
20:39:58 <ehird> does it really matter, ais523? :)
20:40:00 <ais523> it was a precedence when I designed my language
20:40:14 <ais523> I actually had the kind-of-insane idea that it could be used to send interactive content via Teletext
20:40:19 <ais523> thus the need for the shortness of the name
20:40:44 <ehird> britain is so weird.
20:40:58 <ais523> is there an equivalent where you live?
20:41:03 <ais523> other than the Internet, of course?
20:41:22 <ehird> ais523: I live in britain
20:43:57 <ehird> ais523: what's wrong with mentioning golf in the name?
20:44:10 <ehird> i guess it does reduce the possibility that people will write in it outside of golf contests
20:44:42 <ais523> if the language has practical utility outside, it might be an idea to use a different name
20:45:24 <ais523> practical = you might write in it to produce a program that does X when no language choice is specified and you aren't deliberately choosing an esolang
20:46:22 <ehird> ais523: i don't get what you're saying
20:46:33 <ehird> you mean like to write up a quick hack? like what you might do with perl? :P
20:46:37 <ehird> bit odd to use an esolang for that i guess
20:46:54 <ais523> or maybe you want to write an interpreter for your latest esolang
20:46:57 <ais523> and need a language to write it in
20:47:02 <ehird> codeFu, ninjaFu, <other>
20:47:05 <ehird> those are our choices
20:47:15 <ais523> ninjaFu is so much better than codeFu as a name
20:47:23 <ehird> but ninjafu.com is taken, etc
20:47:30 <ehird> and ninjaFu doesn't really suggest, well, code
20:48:34 <ehird> ais523: I can't think of good entries for <other>
20:48:39 <ehird> so: codeFu vs ninjaFu, unless you can
20:49:05 <ais523> codeFu vs ninjaFu sounds like the name of a TV program
20:49:30 <ehird> ais523: ninjafu 1k goog results
20:49:37 <ehird> ninjafu.com is first result though
20:49:58 <ehird> codefu.com is taken but just parked
20:50:05 <ehird> codefu.org is taken and used.
20:50:21 <ais523> what about ninjacode? Is that taken?
20:50:25 <ehird> ais523: honestly maybe we should just give it some kind of abstract name
20:50:31 * ais523 guesses probably but can't be bothered to checl
20:50:38 <ehird> like Rast or something
20:50:48 <ehird> ais523: ninjacode.{com,org} is taken
20:50:52 <ehird> .com->apache2 default
20:51:06 <ehird> ninjacode.org -> not much done but a few links
20:51:34 <ehird> codeFu, ninjaFu, ninjacode, <abstract name>
20:52:27 <ais523> you could give it a name that's a program in the lang itself
20:52:35 <ais523> preferably a very short one which does something crowd-pleasing
20:52:45 <ehird> ais523: and with just a-z..
20:53:35 <ais523> why add that restriction?
20:53:56 <ehird> because otherwise it's kind of hard to pronounce
20:54:23 <ais523> random strings of letters can be hard to pronounce anyway
20:54:57 <ais523> I have a language called :≠, for instance
20:55:17 <ais523> and just arbitrarily defined a pronunciation for it
20:55:54 <ehird> codeFu ninjaFu ninjacode <abstract>
20:56:33 <ais523> I'll go for ninjaFu, then
20:57:30 <ais523> ninjascript sounds better
20:57:37 <ais523> bit reminicent of golfscript, then
20:58:24 <ais523> I think that's right now
21:01:11 <ehird> ais523: ninjaFu doesn't sound very good IMO
21:01:14 <ehird> ok! finally! down to three
21:01:27 <ehird> codeFu ninja{code,script} <abstract>
21:01:38 <cherez> Gentleman, I am at war!
21:02:22 * ais523 currently favours ninjascript
21:03:38 <ehird> ais523: no love for <abstract>?
21:04:15 <ais523> it's hard to pick something in particular for that
21:04:26 <ais523> if you have a concrete suggestion for <abstract>, feel free to suggest it
21:05:49 <ehird> Vort. Yaern. Baut. Cason. Rafdae.
21:07:55 <ehird> ais523: None of them?
21:08:30 <ais523> I like the second and last best
21:08:46 <ais523> ae is obviously a good vowel to use
21:09:53 <ehird> Yaen, Rafdae, codeFu, ninjacode, ninjascript
21:09:59 <ehird> pick one and let's be quick this is taking far too long
21:10:19 <ais523> hey, it's your lang, and every time I make a suggestion you disagree
21:10:23 <ais523> I'll randomise if you like
21:11:54 <ehird> hmm ninjaCode ninjaScript
21:11:59 <ehird> they look nicer camelcased
21:12:04 <ehird> let's just go with one of them
21:12:08 <ehird> it's a binary decision :-)
21:12:23 <ehird> kind of similar to golfscript like you said
21:12:27 <ehird> also, define 'script'
21:12:33 <ehird> its not just a scripting language, is it?
21:12:49 <ais523> I'll use the D definition that a script is something that allows #! at the start
21:13:26 <ehird> well, it will allow #! as a comment
21:13:30 <ehird> anyway, #ninjacode
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21:46:11 <ais523> I'm from the UK, anyway
21:49:31 <oerjan> oklopol is from Kuala Lumpur
21:49:59 <EgoBot> I am from teh interwebs
21:51:05 <oklopol> yeah, i admit it, i'm a kualalumpurian hacker
21:51:30 <olsner> can I be an oompaloompian hacker?
21:52:06 <oerjan> depends. are you good at hacking chocolate?
21:55:03 <oklopol> i wanna be ouagadougouian !
21:55:33 <oerjan> don't be silly. no place could have such a ridiculous name.
21:57:02 <olsner> llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogochian!
21:57:24 <ais523> someone entered a massively long cheat BF entry into my uudecode challenge on codegolf
21:57:27 <oklopol> what was that tangiwanga thing now..
21:57:40 <ehird> this is why i love anarchy golf.
21:57:56 <ais523> it strikes me as a pointless thing to do
21:58:06 <ais523> they probably just memorised the entire man page for uudecode...
21:58:16 <ehird> ais523: or used a text generator
21:58:26 <ehird> also, lots of goruby entries, probably it has a command built in
21:58:51 <ais523> likewise I'm not sure how Perl could be that short without some sort of unpack magic
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21:59:35 <ehird> someone got 105 chars of brainfuck in my scheme interpreter
22:00:15 <ehird> duh, you have to: i have wrong parens in one of the examples
22:00:24 <ehird> (let ((acc (accgen 4))
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22:02:59 <ais523> people submitted cheat entries instead
22:03:46 * oerjan thinks that to prevent cheat entries, the test cases should be longer than a real program
22:03:54 <oerjan> don't know if that is allowed...
22:04:09 <ais523> that's how I tried to prevent cheats on the uudecode challenge
22:04:16 <ais523> I used uudecode's man page as the sample output
22:05:41 <ehird> anarchy golf should let you provide a test program
22:05:45 <oerjan> i guess to beat that, there needs to be a reference implementation and a test case generator
22:05:49 <ehird> so along withy our examples, it runs the program with the program
22:05:53 <ais523> I had the same idea as well
22:05:54 <ehird> so you can bash it and see if its really
22:06:12 <ais523> and also get the first entry with certainty
22:06:57 <ais523> have you seen my latest golfing challenge, yet?
22:07:09 <ais523> the problem is to transpose a matrix of characters
22:07:21 <ais523> and I'm still winning on the two langs where I entered
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22:19:46 <ehird> now that ais523 is gone, who wants to discuss an esolang designed to be very good for 1. small code size, for golfing 2. easy to refactor to be smaller 3. mostly written in itself, as an stdlib: a very big stdlib, with tons and tons of stuff 4. the core is just a very simple kernel written in C, which compiles the very small core it provides to native code (!!!) and then the rest is done by the stdlib
22:19:59 <ehird> concatentative, but most of the specifics have been totally-not-decided right now
22:21:58 <olsner> something like perl? :P
22:21:59 <Peter3m> Any good movie you recommend me?
22:22:12 <ehird> olsner: nah, not really
22:22:36 <ehird> olsner: you can't easily refactor perl, it isn't mostly written in itself, and it doesn't have a native-compiling kernel
22:22:50 <ehird> olsner: but really jokes aside you should join #ninjacode, it's going to be awesome :P
22:22:51 <olsner> yeah, the analogy is quite imperfect
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23:53:24 <ehird> Anarchy golf didn't have a rot13.
23:53:24 <ehird> Oh well: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?rot13
23:59:40 <Asztal> bah... 26 and 65 both have awful factors.