00:00:08 <slereah_> Hm. 14 combinators, n*(n+1) choice at every step...
00:01:23 <slereah_> EXPLOSION
00:01:23 <slereah_> Aaaaaah
00:01:23 <slereah_> No wonder I can't pass anything longer than 4 combinators long.
00:01:23 <slereah_> 4 is already 1963420410 things to try
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02:56:14 <RockerMONO> hi
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05:54:03 <oerjan> SPAM SPAM WONDERFUL SPAM
05:54:18 <pikhq> SPAMMITY SPAM!!!
05:54:59 <pikhq> I've got to say that I like the current topic nostalgia.
05:55:09 <pikhq> (that's one of my favorite Asimov stories)
05:56:37 <oerjan> ah. i have read _about_ that story
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06:06:08 <RodgerTheGreat> spam luncheon meat is delicious.
06:06:42 <oerjan> i was otherwise referring to current wiki events.
06:08:18 * oerjan doesn't recall ever tasting spam, although someone might have secretly fed it to him
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10:57:53 <uvanta> HELLO!
10:58:17 <oklopol> uvanta: HIEYYYYYYYYYYYY!
10:58:28 <uvanta> ㅐㅌㄴㄴㅇ!
10:58:50 <oklopol> :---------------------__)
10:58:57 <uvanta> (:
11:44:50 <Asztal> the topic... is it "the last question"?
11:45:08 <Asztal> I remember reading a summary of it, either that or it was a very short story
11:54:09 <uvanta> i guess so
11:54:14 <uvanta> Asimov's
11:58:16 <olsner> funny, I read that one like only a week ago
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14:10:24 <Figs> w00t!
14:10:54 <Figs> I finally got evolution to work :)
14:13:02 <Slereah> What is it!
14:13:07 <Slereah> Any dinosaurs?
14:15:08 <Figs> nothing too complicated, I just evolved binary strings to match zero
14:16:25 <Figs> basically, each entity is 8 bits... I specify rates of mutation and culling and check how many bits have been set as a means of determining fitness
14:16:46 <Figs> after about 10 generations or so, the population tends to level out
14:18:04 <Figs> to breed, I pick two random strings (could be the same, but unlikely) and split them at a random point in the 8 bits, then I recombine the pieces for the child
14:18:19 <Figs> interestingly, I get better results without mutations
14:19:16 <oklopol> Figs: try evolving a tuple into another giving a set of permutations
14:19:39 <oklopol> it's amazing that it actually works, i don't really see how that's a task you can do gradually
14:21:24 <Figs> heh, you can do all kinds of neat things...
14:21:34 <Figs> like evolving tuples into particular patterns
14:21:58 <Figs> I should try to see if I can get it to generate tuples of 5 increasing prime numbers
14:22:24 <Figs> I've found some neat stuff about how the mutation rate works
14:22:29 <oklopol> tell me
14:23:01 <Figs> This should sound completely obvious, but the mutations depend on the rate of culls
14:23:06 <Figs> so if mutations < culls
14:23:37 <Figs> ("weak culls" that is -- where you remove say 25% of the bad ones)
14:23:49 <Figs> then you get different mutations
14:24:03 <Figs> I was seeing things like 1650 to 350
14:24:07 <Figs> in 0 and 1 only
14:24:21 <Figs> and then I changed the rate and managed to get it in 0,1,2
14:25:00 <Figs> it doesn't depend on the size of the population so much to get the percents; it really is mathematical in relation to the chance of mutation and whether or not it will be culled
14:25:34 <Figs> I'd have to go back and rerun a few experiments to figure out what numbers I actually had
14:25:51 <Figs> I think it was something like 33% mutation rate vs 25% culls
14:27:01 <Figs> yeah
14:28:07 <Figs> with 1/3 mutation and 1/4 culled, I get something like ~1450 in "perfect", ~530 in "off by 1" and ~10 in "off by 2"
14:28:26 <Figs> just rough guesses looking at my numbers
14:29:04 <Figs> and the rest (ie, off by more than 2 bits) is basically non-existant after the first 20 generations or so
14:29:14 <Slereah> Let's make "Intelligent Design"
14:29:18 <Figs> although I did get a few in the off by 3 flickering in and out for a little while
14:29:23 <Slereah> Where the answer will be directly displayed
14:29:41 <Figs> hehe, this is evolution by intelligent design :P
14:29:48 <Figs> I should say "intelligent" design
14:29:57 <Figs> since it's 6:30 in the morning here and I'm not thinking too great
14:30:01 <Figs> but still :)
14:33:58 <Slereah> Got a sample program
14:33:58 <Slereah> .
14:33:59 <Slereah> ?
14:35:11 <Figs> Sure
14:35:14 <Figs> In python
14:35:20 <Figs> Want me to upload?
14:35:33 <Figs> the coding style's not very good... but meh :P
14:35:41 <Slereah> Hell, Python is basically all I can do!
14:36:46 <Slereah> It is actually bothersome, because I must do C in class.
14:36:52 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/Gi5otN11.html
14:36:59 <Figs> there's my little program :D
14:37:02 <Slereah> So I occasionaly use Python in C.
14:37:13 <Figs> 125 lines ^_^
14:37:24 <Figs> you can run it like
14:37:34 <Figs> python -i genetic.py
14:37:36 <Figs> run()
14:38:05 <Slereah> What's -i?
14:39:14 <Figs> interactive
14:39:37 <Figs> I'm basically a noob at python
14:39:49 <Slereah> So am I!
14:40:00 <Slereah> But you can do awesome stuff with little python
14:40:11 <Figs> I guess you could just throw a run() at the end of my file and do python genetic.py
14:40:18 <Figs> but I like to start it myself
14:42:21 <Figs> what thinks ye? :)
14:42:39 <Figs> I know it's not exactly thrilling...
14:43:25 <Slereah> Well, it's hard to judge like that!
14:43:32 <Slereah> I don't know the what'sgoings on
14:45:24 <Figs> Each cell has 8 bits like,
14:45:34 <Figs> [0,1,1,0,1,0,1,0]
14:45:49 <Figs> and, the goal is to get it to [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]
14:46:02 <Figs> so when you see 0=1600
14:46:14 <Figs> that means that 1600 of the entities are all [0,0,0,0...
14:46:25 <Figs> 1 means they have 1 bit set
14:46:29 <Figs> 2 means 2, etc
14:48:20 <oklopol> it's a waste of genetic algorithms if you use them for that :)
14:48:24 <oklopol> do something AWESOME
14:48:51 <Slereah> Like a DINOSAUR
14:50:01 <Figs> oklopol: I'm making it evolve prime numbers now
14:50:39 <Figs> I'm just trying to think of a good way to represent the output of each generation
14:50:59 <Slereah> Output asteroid?
14:51:03 <Figs> I might make the generations themselves small and show each one... and then run it longer
14:51:25 <Figs> like 10 individuals and 10000 generations instead
14:51:32 <Figs> and then I can show the actual genes
14:51:43 <Figs> (instead of a summary)
14:52:26 <Figs> it'd be interesting once I get this to work to make it evolve larger primes more preferably than smaller ones... hmm :)
14:52:31 <Figs> this is getting fun
14:58:55 <Figs> wow
14:58:57 <Figs> seems to work
14:59:53 <Figs> haa
14:59:54 <Figs> no wonder
15:00:00 <Figs> my prime function thinks 9 is a prime number
15:00:01 <Figs> haha
15:00:02 <Figs> >.<
15:00:05 <Figs> me = idiot
15:02:33 <Figs> there we go
15:02:34 <Figs> now it works
15:02:35 <Figs> wow
15:02:37 <Figs> I get prime numbers
15:02:39 <Figs> sexy :)
15:02:59 <Figs> (`cuz you _know_ prime numba's are sex-ay!)
15:03:06 <Figs> </random>
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15:04:24 <Figs> hello
15:06:21 <slereah__> Hi.
15:07:04 <Figs> It works :D
15:07:19 <Figs> now it makes prime numbers
15:07:20 <slereah__> Yay
15:07:31 <Figs> but my inteface is ugly
15:08:54 <slereah__> How does it make them exactly?
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15:12:59 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/33DCyq90.html
15:13:04 <Figs> you can take a look
15:13:21 <Figs> it just tries random numbers and evaluates against a fitness function to cull bad ones
15:14:09 <Figs> I should probably refactor my code and clean it up so this is easier to use
15:17:01 <slereah__> Once the number is well prime, does it stop changing?
15:17:05 <slereah__> Or does the value oscillate around the prime number
15:18:36 <Figs> no, it keeps changing because of mutations
15:18:38 <Figs> but the new numbers are entirely random
15:18:49 <Figs> so say I have 6 in there now, next time it might be 458
15:19:45 <Figs> if you tweak the settings to have a weak-cull rate of .75, and random cull of .25, and a mutation ratio of 1:2
15:19:49 <Figs> it gets interesting
15:19:58 <Figs> it climbs up slowly
15:20:18 <Figs> but because of the high mutation rate, it changes every couple dozen generations to have some new numbers
15:21:33 <slereah__> How do you decide when to output the value then, if you so decide?
15:21:47 <Figs> values are output every generation
15:22:00 <Figs> read the run() function to see what happens
15:22:15 <slereah__> I saw.
15:22:30 <slereah__> But how do you know the results if it's all random number, even if they're around the right value?
15:23:01 <Figs> you mean, how do I determine fitness?
15:23:19 <Figs> it has nothing to do with being close to a prime number
15:23:28 <Figs> it's either a prime or not for each 'bit'
15:23:58 <Figs> it's totally random, but it works! :)
15:25:00 <slereah__> Can you post the running of the program?
15:25:06 <Figs> if my calculations are correct, there are 95 prime numbers under 500
15:25:26 <Figs> so you have a roughly 1/5 chance of guessing a prime number
15:25:37 <Figs> can I post the running?
15:25:41 <Figs> I guess
15:25:49 <slereah__> You know, the program being executed
15:25:49 <Figs> how much do you want?
15:25:56 <oklopol> oh, you're generating primes that way
15:26:07 <slereah__> Well, all primes numbers under 20 should do it
15:26:21 <Figs> ?
15:26:24 <oklopol> that's effectively what you had originally
15:26:33 <oklopol> the random -> 000...0 thing
15:26:54 <Figs> yeah, this is a minor tweak to get the same algorithm to do something different
15:27:07 <Figs> it's a little more interesting than ones and zeros :)
15:27:07 <oklopol> hmm, right, ofc
15:27:13 <oklopol> well, sure
15:27:27 <Figs> slereah__: running of which program?
15:27:37 <slereah__> Prime numbers generation
15:28:01 <oklopol> my idea some time ago was to try getting simple permutations from the set of huge permutations a rubik'
15:28:03 <oklopol> s cube has
15:28:27 <oklopol> the problem is, i never coded in the actual twists of the cube
15:28:56 <oklopol> because there are so little of them i don't wanna do an algo to determine them, but they are so long i don't wanna do them by hand :D
15:30:28 <Figs> slereah__: how much output do you want?
15:30:44 <Figs> the full output (10000 generations) is huge
15:30:55 <slereah__> Just post the code then.
15:30:56 <Figs> 100 generations enough?
15:31:01 <Figs> I posted the code O_o
15:31:13 <slereah__> Was it the first one?
15:31:24 <Figs> link was here: http://rafb.net/p/33DCyq90.html
15:31:24 <slereah__> Oh, right
15:31:46 <Figs> maybe your connection dropped out or something and missed it, I dunno
15:31:58 <Figs> isn't technology fun? :)
15:33:10 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/wLIFXg72.html
15:33:24 <Figs> here's a sample running it with my .75/.25/1:2
15:33:26 <slereah__> But isn't the computation mostly done by the prime function?
15:33:39 <Figs> prime function only checks primality
15:33:46 <slereah__> Well, yes.
15:34:02 <Figs> it's effectively part of the fitness function
15:35:42 <Figs> I should probably run this with a more interesting scope
15:35:50 <Figs> something where the primes are thinner
15:36:12 <slereah__> Well, 7's a pretty thin number!
15:36:27 <Figs> 7? O_o
15:36:34 <slereah__> It's a joke.
15:36:38 <Figs> ok :P
15:36:52 <Figs> figs.comprehends() != true
15:37:07 <slereah__> 'cause 7 is thin, as a symbol!
15:37:14 <slereah__> I would have used 1, but you know
15:37:16 <Figs> :P
15:38:59 <slereah__> Hm. I should forbid stuff of the form `iC in my combinator match program
15:39:05 <slereah__> Make it go faster
15:39:16 <Figs> `iC?
15:39:45 <Figs> Ya know... I still haven't finished my damned parser system :P
15:39:48 <slereah__> i the identity combinator
15:39:52 <slereah__> C any combinator
15:46:38 <Figs> whoo, evolution in 5 minutes: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/01/evolution_in_5_minutes.php
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15:51:11 <Figs> hello RTG
15:51:18 <Figs> I'm evolving prime numbers today
15:51:21 <Figs> how are you?
15:51:34 <slereah__> I want a fuzzy little prime number.
15:51:43 <RodgerTheGreat> hi, figs
15:54:19 <Figs> slereah__: 2 ^_^
15:54:20 <Figs> HAI!!!! ^_^
15:54:33 <slereah__> 2 seems a little too angular.
15:54:38 <slereah__> Why can't 8 be prime?
15:55:17 <Figs> 8's divisible by 4
15:55:18 <Figs> ^_^
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15:55:30 <Figs> how about 911?
15:55:33 <Figs> 911 is a prime number.
15:55:49 <slereah__> No.
15:55:54 <slereah__> 911 contains 4.
15:55:59 <slereah__> Because NEVAR 4GET
15:56:05 <Figs> 919
16:15:36 <Figs> boing.
16:39:07 <Figs> ding a ling a ling!
16:39:09 <Figs> time for bed
16:39:09 <Figs> 8 am
16:39:10 <Figs> `morning all.
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19:15:59 <slereah__>     if c in ["s","k","i","r","a","n","p","x","w","m","&"]
19:15:59 <slereah__>                                                         ^
19:15:59 <slereah__> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
19:16:01 <slereah__> Wut?
19:16:23 <slereah__> Oh, forgot the semicolon
19:32:39 <bsmntbombdood> itym colon
19:37:22 <slereah__> Prolly.
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19:40:07 <ehird> testy test.
19:40:09 <ehird> testing testy test test
19:45:27 <ehird> evidently nobody likes testse
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19:52:15 <slereah__> And now, for something completely different.
20:10:51 -!- ehird has joined.
20:10:56 <ehird> foobar.
20:11:10 <ehird> i think i like xmonad now. just need to get it to recompile properly
20:12:40 <slereah__> Hello little man.
20:14:54 <ehird> i should write my own WM!
20:15:05 <ehird> in Lisp, that is dynamically reconfigurable at runtime!
20:15:09 <ehird> actually that soudns awesome
20:15:36 <ehird> Xparenthesis
20:15:53 <ehird> brb
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20:17:18 <ehird> i could have optional esolang configuration backends :P
20:17:51 <slereah__> ?
20:19:15 <ehird> a window manager, written in Lisp, which you can reconfigure at runtime (change setting, see it happen), but youc an also write the configuration in an esolang
20:19:18 <ehird> :D
20:19:28 <slereah__> Well, you know me and computers
20:19:53 <ehird> i didn't hear me asking for your opinion
20:19:53 <ehird> :-P
20:21:44 <slereah__> I didn't hear myself suggest it
20:22:13 <ehird> :)
20:32:11 <olsner> my haskell thue interpreter is far too slow... it's taken more than 30 minutes to run BF hello world through the Thue BF interpreter, and still not done
20:32:46 <olsner> the python thue interpreter does it in 3-4 minutes
20:34:34 <olsner> done! 33m35s :(
20:35:55 <ehird> olsner: Write something that compiles it into Haskell rules
20:35:55 <ehird> :D
20:36:24 <ehird> thueStep ('h':'i':xs) = "hello" ++ thueStep xs
20:37:44 <olsner> yeah, and ending it with thueStep (x:xs) = x:thueStep xs; thueStep [] = thueStep [] - that'd probably work!
20:38:31 <olsner> I was otherwise thinking of building some kind of automaton and running that
20:38:45 <ehird> automaton would be faster :P
20:38:53 <ehird> olsner: that would be a slow thueStep base case
20:38:57 <ehird> you should build a table like:
20:39:17 <ehird> thueTable = ["foo","hi"]
20:39:19 <ehird> then do something like
20:39:42 <ehird> thueStep (x:xs) = x : thueStep (find-element-of-thueTable-in-xs-and-return-the-string-from-that-point-onwards)
20:41:31 <olsner> wouldn't the find part basically do the exact same thing as thueStep only not replace anything?
20:41:53 <ehird> olsner: you could use a more efficient algorithm
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21:10:48 <ehird> what did i miss
21:11:42 <slereah__> Awesome stuff, really
21:11:47 <slereah__> I'm totally not lying
21:11:47 <ehird> :| LIKE WHAT
21:11:56 * ehird checks ircbrowse.com
21:12:47 -!- adu has joined.
21:12:49 <ehird> yes, the topic is The Last Question
21:12:53 <ehird> for all those who seem to be asking..
21:13:52 <slereah__> Was it the story with the "how to stop the universe from dying" thingy?
21:14:06 <ehird> Yes
21:14:57 <slereah__> Most of his sort-of comedic stories weren't that great from what I can recall
21:15:51 <ehird> the last question isn't really comedic.
21:15:53 <ehird> :|
21:16:11 <Asztal> at least humanity didn't wipe themselves out :)
21:16:18 <slereah__> It's been a while
21:16:33 <slereah__> I should re-read the big Foundation books.
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22:11:55 <slereah__> People.
22:12:13 <slereah__> I'm trying to optimise the JUGGERNAUT (bitch).
22:13:04 <slereah__> So far, it tests every combination a lot of times. How could I make it only test for new combinations?
22:15:03 <slereah__> The relevant code is something like this : http://pastebin.ca/873833
22:20:04 <ehird`> rewrite it in Lisp and Iwill! ;)
22:20:51 <slereah__> Replace all s with th.
22:21:14 <slereah__> *rimshot*
22:21:34 <slereah__> If I describe the algorithm, will it be okay too?
22:25:09 <ehird`> Yes
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22:25:51 <slereah__> C is the set of combinators I choose to compose from. Individuals combinators are tested outside this loop once.
22:26:02 <ehird[tkirc]> testy
22:26:15 <ehird[tkirc]> /mea
22:26:16 <ehird[tkirc]> /me a
22:26:18 <ehird[tkirc]> hm
22:26:33 <slereah__> Then, it tests every combination of C, and adds them to C.
22:27:03 <slereah__> For instance, if I have s and k, it will test ss, sk, ks, kk, and the new list will be [s,k,ss,sk,ks,kk]
22:27:12 <ehird[tkirc]> I see
22:27:24 <ehird[tkirc]> so:
22:27:39 <slereah__> But since s and k are still in here (I need them, for instance to compose `s`ss), it retries every value
22:27:52 <ehird[tkirc]> FOR x in C { FOR y in C { append C (concat x y) } }
22:28:08 <slereah__> Roughly
22:28:50 <slereah__> I guess I could use the condition `xy not in C, maybe
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22:31:24 <oklopol> (append (append C (concat x y)) (concat y)), no?
22:31:34 <oklopol> *(append (append C (concat x y)) (concat y x))
22:31:48 <slereah__> ?
22:32:23 <slereah__> Hm. The not in C test seems to work.
22:33:07 <oklopol> i mean, don't you want to add bot (s(ss)) and (sss) if you have (s k ss kk sk ks)
22:33:13 <oklopol> *both
22:33:43 <oklopol> (where abc = (ab)c)
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22:40:00 <ehird`> essentially you always have infinite permutations.....
22:40:58 <slereah__> This is unpleasant, 'cause I actually have to optimise it.
22:41:00 <slereah__> Aaaaargh
22:43:47 <ehird`> pikhq: You! tcl user! :P
22:44:01 <ehird`> how do i use tklib's lobster style? default tk is ugly
22:46:18 <pikhq> I don't know; don't really use Tk.
22:46:34 <ehird`> asjasdjkgfjafg, :P
22:46:35 <oerjan> ...or Lobster Thermidor a Crevette with a mornay sauce served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and spam.
22:48:44 <slereah__> Can't I just have the eggs and bacon spam spam and spam?
22:51:41 <slereah__> Ah shit.
22:51:55 <slereah__> The Juggernaut blocks on `m`ml
22:52:47 <slereah__> It's an infinite loop, but it's supposed to stop the test automatically after 300 steps.
22:53:45 <slereah__> Ah yes, the expression becomes too huge at step 60
22:55:15 <slereah__> What would be a good limit size for an expression?
22:55:20 <slereah__> Thousand chars?
22:58:47 <ehird`> 1024
22:59:04 <oerjan> 1729
23:03:22 <oklopol> 1932
23:03:51 <Asztal> 7.
23:04:36 <slereah__> Well, 5000 seems to be too much at least.
23:08:11 <slereah__> I have in my mind the Juggernaut going through combinators.
23:08:27 <slereah__> "YOUR WEAPONS CANNOT HARM ME"
23:09:16 <oerjan> The Juggernaut vs. The Birds...
23:09:40 <slereah__> Seems unfair.
23:10:21 <slereah__> But they've got number power
23:10:39 <slereah__> I'm still checking for ``v`k0k
23:11:01 <slereah__> With the 14 combinators.
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23:13:30 <RockerMONO> hi
23:13:48 <slereah__> Hi.
23:24:50 <olsner> what's the Juggernaut?
23:25:08 <olsner> (and I though it was spelled juggernaught?)
23:25:13 <slereah__> You insert some lambda or combinator expression
23:25:20 <slereah__> You insert a list of combinators.
23:25:37 <slereah__> It will (possibly) find the shortest way to make it out of that
23:25:49 <olsner> ooh, nice tool
23:26:00 <slereah__> It is quite brute force though.
23:26:37 <slereah__> It's usually better to have some sort of idea of what it will be, because using all 14 combinators makes it quite long
23:28:43 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggernaut
23:29:52 <slereah__> Although I mostly had him in mind : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggernaut_(comics)
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23:36:04 <olsner> heh, funny etymology of that word
23:50:14 <ehird`> foo
23:52:14 <slereah__> bar.
23:55:41 <ehird`> quux
23:56:55 <oerjan> waldo
23:57:13 <slereah__> `u`x
23:57:18 <slereah__> `u`ux*
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23:57:31 <slereah__> ^There's Waldo