00:00:12 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
00:01:03 <ehird`_> also, BI_IT has *significant* padding :P
00:01:55 <ehird`_> Ah, looks like I'll need to pick up another of ais523's tricks: AMICED is clearly impossible, so i can have a NEGATIVE_AMICED, and make all operations on it inversed
00:02:31 -!- slereah__ has joined.
00:03:49 <ehird`_> 'A quarter of a reference to a object of the given type.'
00:03:58 -!- olsner has joined.
00:05:14 <ehird`_> If I ever need to print out the size of a TURKEY BOMB object, I'm going to be lying significantly. :P
00:07:01 <ehird`_> I am unsure how to represent a NOMENCLATURE.
00:11:10 <Sgeo> Can I add the PSOX stuff to the topic?
00:11:11 <ehird`_> Well, I've got most of the types codified. The hard part is doing operations on them.
00:11:26 <ehird`_> Sgeo: Um, no? No other esoteric language thing has that priviledge..
00:11:56 <ehird`_> anyway, for anyone who's interested:
00:12:10 <ehird`_> mentally fix the typo 'quater' ;)
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00:30:15 <Sgeo> puzzlet, were you interested in PSOX?
00:31:55 * Sgeo is scared of Java, tbh
00:32:42 <Sgeo> Java applets == pain
00:32:58 <Sgeo> Plus, I'm supposed to be doing some college work
00:33:36 <ehird`_> RodgerTheGreat: if you disable sounds.
00:52:40 <RodgerTheGreat> well, the sounds make the gameplay more interesting. Can't you just try muting it if it bothers you so much?
00:55:53 <ehird`_> How much more interesting?
00:56:33 <ehird`_> RodgerTheGreat: is the input meant to be unimaginably slow
00:57:39 <ehird`_> RodgerTheGreat: want to add a tutorial?
00:59:00 <RodgerTheGreat> it really is a pretty straightforward game. You break a series of passwords, which are randomly scrambled combinations of the pattern shown.
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01:05:48 <ehird`_> We need an esolang making use of loads of unicode
01:06:30 <pikhq> Those aren't showing for me.
01:06:49 <ehird`_> pikhq: Well, x-chat is dumb and doesn't want to use utf-8.
01:06:57 <ehird`_> It was a circle, cut off a bit, with an arrow at one end
01:06:57 <Sgeo> PSOX doesn't currently support Unicode :/
01:07:22 <ehird`_> haha: ≫ (looks like >> stuffed together) "much greater than"
01:07:28 <ehird`_> i would love to see an esolang giving a concrete meaning to that
01:07:52 <pikhq> Use *that* for your bitshift operators.
01:08:13 <ehird`_> no, the idea is that it MUST obey what the unicode definition says it is
01:08:35 <ehird`_> Oh, and of course, ⊨ is true and ⊭ is false.
01:08:43 <pikhq> a >> b == (a - b) > 100
01:08:59 <slereah__> Isn't true-false just a turnstile with only one bar?
01:09:14 <ehird`_> slereah__: no, that's an assertation
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01:09:26 <ehird`_> ⋙ 'VERY MUCH GREATER-THAN' ... it's >>>
01:10:04 <pikhq> a >>> b == (a - b) > 1000.
01:10:08 <ehird`_> though apparently they are "frown" and "smile"
01:10:18 <ehird`_> pikhq: should be relative to values! ;)
01:10:47 <ehird`_> ⌫ 'erase to the left' (looks like <X| where X is inbetween =)... could make for fun code
01:11:34 <Sgeo> Be back laterish
01:11:38 <ehird`_> Oh, and we should use unicode box drawing characters for modularness
01:11:58 <ehird`_> The program would be a visual representation, in mixed drawing and mathematical notation, of what it does. :P
01:12:52 <ehird`_> Oh yes, and all the strange number systems in unicode should be supported
01:13:48 <ehird`_> pikhq: It could be called... UniCode!
01:14:44 <pikhq> Or maybe you could call it. . . APL.
01:14:58 <ehird`_> APL used its OWN characters.
01:15:15 <olsner> afaik, APL doesn't even have an official unicode mapping
01:15:31 <slereah__> It could be APL, but to stand for "Another Programming Language"
01:15:31 <ehird`_> marked as 'APL', incidentally.
01:15:49 <pikhq> It does have a LaTeX mapping, I know.
01:15:53 <ehird`_> If a lot of unicode chars were implemented to do very specific things, it might just be the shortest language ever, but even more obfuscated than K or J! :p
01:16:01 <ehird`_> pikhq: was that an empty message?
01:16:04 <ehird`_> it ate the second half of mine
01:16:33 <olsner> oh, I was under the impression that APL fonts and systems had to use user-mapped unicode ranges for APL characters - at least all the APL fonts I've found turned out to be mutually incompatible
01:16:55 <ehird`_> slereah__: Uh, a few thousand ones actually allocated.
01:16:59 <ehird`_> A few million, or billion, unused.
01:17:12 <slereah__> That's a whole lot of programs to do!
01:17:13 <olsner> more than a few thousands though
01:17:17 <ehird`_> '...Unicode consists of a repertoire of about 100,000 characters,...'
01:17:46 <pikhq> Good luck mapping Chinese characters into functions. :p
01:17:54 <slereah__> Although I doubt that you'd find an easy use for foreign scripts
01:18:03 <olsner> haskell Chars go up to 1114111, I think
01:18:22 <slereah__> And possibly sum hebrew, although I doubt you can use Aleph Null a whole lot!
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01:18:47 <ehird`_> aleph null would be used a lot!
01:18:55 <ehird`_> infinites and fuzzies are just going to have to be embraced :P
01:19:04 <ehird`_> pikhq: Yeah, obviously none of those kinds of things will be looked at
01:19:17 <ehird`_> The hardest bit will be writing the code. :-P
01:19:29 <slereah__> "What's the char for that function?"
01:19:37 <ehird`_> slereah__: ... and how do i type it?
01:19:37 <slereah__> "What's the unicode for that char?"
01:19:43 <pikhq> You'd want an ASCII->UniCode mapping.
01:19:46 <ehird`_> And, indeed, what language to write the interpreter in, with the insane unicode support needed :P
01:19:52 <ehird`_> pikhq: That's ridiculous. :P
01:20:18 <slereah__> Do most text editor even support unicode?
01:20:23 <ehird`_> slereah__: Any decent one does..
01:20:29 <ehird`_> pikhq: Emacs does, since *recently*
01:20:30 <pikhq> Also, might I recommend Tcl?
01:20:35 <ehird`_> And only very recently in an official release.
01:20:47 <ehird`_> Also, you may not. It's far too much of a shell-alike for my tastes.
01:21:09 <ehird`_> oh my god! the interrobang MUST be used :D
01:21:12 <pikhq> But it's had proper Unicode support for nearly 10 years now!
01:21:28 <slereah__> What's the interobang for? Error related?
01:21:28 <ehird`_> pikhq: But not proper coding support, apparently.
01:21:36 <ehird`_> slereah__: I don't know. But - interrobang!
01:21:41 <pikhq> ehird`_: Nor does any language, apparently.
01:21:52 <ehird`_> pikhq: Languages unlike the shell work well..
01:22:04 <pikhq> And Tcl's not shell-like, unless you're ignorant.
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01:23:02 <slereah__> But, apart from Unicody, what would the language be like?
01:23:05 <CakeProphet> ...does anyone remember when I messing around with turtle and made this cool rose thing?
01:23:11 <CakeProphet> I'm trying to recreate the source code for that... to no avail
01:23:17 <pikhq> slereah__: Stack-based, of course.
01:23:28 <ehird`_> pikhq: You're good at insulting people who don't like tcl...
01:23:36 <ehird`_> How is it dissimilar to a scripting shell?
01:23:38 <slereah__> Why are people always on the side of stacks!
01:23:47 <ehird`_> slereah__: APL-ish, in the crazy fluid syntax way.
01:23:57 <CakeProphet> http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j316/adamadamadamamiadam/rose.png
01:24:01 <pikhq> ehird`_: How is it in any way *similar* to a shell?
01:24:03 <ehird`_> Not stack-based, because that doesn't follow unicode text flow!
01:24:09 <ehird`_> pikhq: Answer the question I originally asked..
01:24:10 <CakeProphet> I'm trying to reproduce the source code I used to make this. But I don't remember the math I did.
01:24:44 <slereah__> I wonder how much space a Unicode chart would take on my wall
01:24:47 * pikhq doesn't know of any shells with lists as a standard data type.
01:24:59 <slereah__> Although it might be refered more as a mural
01:26:01 <pikhq> How would you translate, say, {2 {3 4} {5 {6 {{7}}}}} in Bash?
01:26:18 <ehird`_> I forget the syntax- but you can do that.
01:26:54 <CakeProphet> maybe I can find a log of me talking about it...
01:27:35 <pikhq> Tcl's semantics are also quite different. . . Particularly that pesky bit about Tcl's semantics being, to a certain degree, runtime-modifiable.
01:28:20 <CakeProphet> we should all be figuring out how I made this thing.
01:28:25 <ehird`_> The name "(void *)0" is very similar to the existing account "Voldo" (contributions • logs • user creation entry). Please choose another name, or request an administrator to create this account for you.'
01:29:05 <pikhq> Yeah; it *used* to be in the topic. . .
01:29:14 <ehird`_> CakeProphet: ircbrowse.com
01:30:07 <pikhq> Does shell lend itself readily to something like "expr [join $list +]" or "+ {*}$list" to add up the contents of a list?
01:31:31 <CakeProphet> ...I'm going to need a log from like... half a year ago or more
01:32:20 <slereah__> Although looking for it might be challenging.
01:32:30 <ehird`_> CakeProphet: There's logs from 2003
01:32:44 <CakeProphet> ...but I don't see a way to search for words in all of them at once
01:33:04 <slereah__> CakeProphet: site:[site] [word] on google
01:33:39 <slereah__> Example : http://www.google.fr/search?q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Ftunes.org%2F~nef%2Flogs%2Fesoteric%2F+butt&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
01:36:17 <slereah__> For some reason, I'm the first result for "butt" in the logs.
01:38:27 <CakeProphet> I think had something to do with the golden ratio...
01:39:18 <slereah__> What was your nick back then CakeProphet?
01:39:59 <slereah__> There's a turtle discussion with SIB in it
01:40:07 <slereah__> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/07.03.01
01:40:37 <Sgeo> slereah__, were you interested in PSOX?
01:41:02 <slereah__> Well, since I don't know enough CS to appreciate its grandeur, not that much.
01:41:03 <Sgeo> Check out the wiki page for PSOX
01:41:30 <slereah__> Although, mister ehird`_, I <3 your idea of UniCode.
01:41:48 <pikhq> slereah__: You're in #estoeric, but don't know enough CS to appreciate PSOX?!?
01:42:18 <slereah__> CakeProphet: http://deadbeefbabe.org/paste/3839?__session_just_started__=1
01:42:49 <slereah__> pikhq: I'm still mostly in the input/output/computation phase.
01:44:05 <slereah__> But still, since I don't want to do actually sort of useful looking stuff, I don't need much more than that!
01:45:05 <CakeProphet> but that definetely helps... as it might be similar math...
01:45:15 <CakeProphet> I might have just changed that a little bit and ended up making this rose thing
01:45:52 <slereah__> Hm. ehird`_ said "Turtles" a lot on MY BIRTHDAY IN 2007
01:47:15 <CakeProphet> try looking for rose... as I think I mentioned it once
01:53:30 -!- ehird`_ has set topic: YEW-KNEE-KODE.
01:53:57 <ehird`_> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/UniCode
01:56:02 <slereah__> Should we start a list of chars with associated functions?
01:57:53 <ehird`_> slereah__: No, there's more fundamental things to decide on first.
01:58:50 <ehird`_> e.g. syntactical format, crazy esoteric paradigm, basic structure of programs...
01:59:19 <Sgeo> Will SimonRC be back anytime soon?
01:59:34 <ehird`_> Sgeo: No, he's dead. Unicode killed him
01:59:44 <ehird`_> slereah__: You're getting good at this
02:00:11 <ehird`_> slereah__: Yeah, kind of murky.
02:05:21 * slereah__ 's going to write the description of clockpunk on the wiki
02:08:07 <pikhq> slereah__: What syntax?
02:08:32 <pikhq> Allow me to do the appropriate syntax in BNF.
02:09:26 <pikhq> When you have that many chars to work with, you don't need syntax. You just need one char per command.
02:14:24 <slereah__> What's the verb for applying mod to a number?
02:15:15 <ehird`_> pikhq: Show me some elegant Tcl code
02:16:06 <pikhq> proc K {x y} {return $x}
02:16:19 <ehird`_> pikhq: Hmm, something a bit bigger? :-P
02:17:03 <ehird`_> pikhq: What about a curried version of K?
02:19:25 <pikhq> package require Tk;pack [label -text "Hello, world!"];# :p
02:19:46 <ehird`_> if only tk wasn't pig-ugly on x11
02:19:48 <ehird`_> pikhq: What about a curried version of K?
02:22:59 <pikhq> http://wiki.tcl.tk/1318
02:23:57 <pikhq> Not a curried version of K. . . Just really old Tcl lambdas.
02:24:28 <ehird`_> pikhq: Well, I want a curried K! :P
02:24:43 <ehird`_> I am starting to feel like tcl has no trivial anonymous functions with lexical closures..
02:25:18 <ehird`_> Also.. how does Tcl handle garbage collection?
02:26:10 <pikhq> interp alias {} K {} {[apply {x} {apply y {x}}]}
02:26:15 <pikhq> Reference counting.
02:26:36 <ehird`_> pikhq: Handles circular references?
02:26:41 <ehird`_> Also, what is that interp alias junk?
02:26:49 <ehird`_> Can't you make a function returning a function...?
02:27:01 <pikhq> You can, but said function wouldn't be evaluated. . .
02:27:20 <ehird`_> pikhq: But I write higher-order functions all the time..
02:27:25 <ehird`_> Especially with lexical scope.
02:27:28 <pikhq> (because *somebody* thought that making every command implicitly begin with {*} was a bad idea. :()
02:28:04 <pikhq> proc K {x y} {return {apply x {apply y {$x}}}}
02:28:18 <pikhq> Call via: {*}K I think. . .
02:28:37 <ehird`_> pikhq: It seems that you cannot do arithmetic without a special 'expr' command..
02:28:54 <pikhq> {*} expands the word into a series of words. . .
02:29:04 <pikhq> And Tcl 8.5 allows you to do arithmetic without expr.
02:29:12 <pikhq> [+ 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10]
02:29:35 <pikhq> Once again: why that never was in before is beyond me.
02:29:35 <ehird`_> It seems that ubuntu/debian do not have it.
02:30:10 <ehird`_> return [expr $n * [factorial [expr $n - 1]]] please tell me there is a nicer way to do this.
02:30:37 <pikhq> return [* $n [factorial [- $n 1]]]
02:31:09 <ehird`_> pikhq: Again, I don't have Tcl 8.5, on account of being unable to
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02:31:46 <pikhq> proc * {args} {expr [join $args *]}
02:31:54 <pikhq> proc - {args} {expr [join $args -]}
02:32:31 <ehird`_> pikhq: OK, I'm just asking if I really need that nested 'expr'..
02:33:06 <ihope> Hmm. I thought there was an esoteric programming language called Requiem.
02:33:17 <pikhq> Not necessarily. One *could* replace that with [incr n -1]. :p
02:33:20 <ehird`_> ihope: Carpeirequiem or whatever exists.
02:33:33 <ehird`_> ihope: that doesn't even work.
02:33:47 <ehird`_> factorial 5 doesn't work..
02:33:50 <ehird`_> does tcl disown recursion?
02:34:13 <pikhq> It doesn't tail-call optimise, but it should at least work for 5 recursions. . .
02:34:49 <ehird`_> proc factorial {n} {if {n == 0} {return 1} {return [expr $n * [factorial [expr $n - 1]]]}}
02:36:26 <ehird`_> it's like what would happen if php was reduced to a pure core
02:37:02 <pikhq> Did I happen to mention that Tcl 8.4 sucks?
02:37:07 <ehird`_> -3819052484010180608 AAAAAAAH
02:37:12 <ehird`_> pikhq: Go yell at ubuntu people
02:38:36 <pikhq> Keep in mind that Tcl is *imperative*, not functional. :p
02:38:58 <pikhq> (attempts to add lambda to the core aside)
02:39:28 <ehird`_> pikhq: Seriously. Bignums. Non-sucky infix. :P
02:39:43 <ehird`_> Really I want to be coding in Dylan. did Dylan support bignums and unicode?
02:40:09 <pikhq> Perhaps you'd prefer Jim?
02:40:13 <ehird`_> Well, it was cool. Because it was Lisp with syntax.
02:40:25 <pikhq> Jim is, in essence, some guy's sandbox for clever Tcl features.
02:40:33 <pikhq> Native bignums, native lambdas, etc.
02:40:59 <pikhq> No, but about half of its features are in Tcl 8.5 now. . .
02:41:29 <pikhq> Did not realise that it has closures.
02:41:40 <pikhq> Anyways: Jim is also a fairly small footprint implementation.
02:41:54 <pikhq> (Tcl is really easy to implement if you don't bother with bytecode, apparently)
02:42:06 <ehird`_> there's a tcl in 500 lines of readable .c
02:42:23 <ehird`_> http://antirez.com/page/picol.html
02:42:32 <pikhq> I've messed with it.
02:42:50 <pikhq> Jim is roughly 10,000 lines of readable C.
02:43:23 <pikhq> Which is a decent size, but in that, you get complete Tcl, lambda, closures, etc. . .
02:44:08 <pikhq> I don't know if he bothered implementing the Stubs API.
02:45:25 <ehird`_> I don't think I'll be programming in Tcl, unfortunately.
02:45:38 <ehird`_> What I really want is a hybrid of erlang, Lisp, and dylan-like syntax.
02:45:54 <pikhq> Get oerjan to whore out Haskell. :p
02:46:46 <ehird`_> I like haskell. But i dunno.
02:46:57 <pikhq> Oooh. He *did* implement the Stubs API.
02:47:02 <pikhq> So, yes, it *can* do Tk.
02:48:48 <ehird`_> pikhq: It is just too simplistic for me...
02:49:08 <ehird`_> It doesn't have any of the wonderful abstractions, like anonymous functions, that i've come to love so much
02:49:45 <slereah__> Fuck, I just realised that input in Clockpunk makes it not work.
02:49:59 <pikhq> lambda x {* $x 2} is perfectly valid in Jim.
02:50:34 <ehird`_> pikhq: Jim is not widely-accepted enough.
02:51:19 <pikhq> I'll just continue pestering the fine Tcl maintainers in #tcl to add Jim features to Tcl.
02:52:17 <ehird`_> proc K {x} {proc {y} {return $x}}
02:52:42 <ehird`_> Incidentally, I do believe that syntax shouldn't be hard. If I recall correctly, that's "proc ?name? args body"
02:53:35 <pikhq> It'd probably get stuck as [lambda y {return $x}], but, yeah. . .
02:54:15 <ehird`_> pikhq: Well, that sucks :p
02:54:21 <ehird`_> Oh yeah, this should work:
02:54:48 <ehird`_> proc foo {x} {proc {i} {set x [+ $x $i]}}
02:56:04 <ehird`_> pikhq: I mean, why do you need an extra form for it?
02:56:31 <pikhq> Actually, your suggested syntax would work fairly well.
02:57:16 <ehird`_> what's that example by, i think, knuth?
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04:04:57 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, GregorR- check this out: http://www.3dtomb2.com/about.php
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04:12:31 <RodgerTheGreat> does anyone want to help me tease apart the source code and reverse engineer this so that we might learn it's secrets?
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04:15:57 <Sgeo> hi calamari. Did you see the wiki page for PSOX recently?
04:16:31 <RodgerTheGreat> and apparently nobody's in a reverse-engineering mood tonight. :/
04:16:37 <calamari> no.. I haven't really been looking at the wiki lately
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04:16:59 <calamari> lots of other projects have been attracting my attention
04:17:09 <Sgeo> At least look at the topic of #psox ?
04:17:14 <calamari> RodgerTheGreat: what are you working on? :)
04:17:31 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.3dtomb2.com/about.php <- I was thinking about taking this apart
04:17:38 <calamari> ahh good, so there is still work being done on that :)
04:18:02 <RodgerTheGreat> on an unrelated note, I finished the game I was working on earlier: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/ICEBreaker/
04:18:14 <Sgeo> It's an alpha version, and doesn't support custom domains and no builtin domains other than 0-2 have been defined
04:19:11 <calamari> RodgerTheGreat: it is using a very primitive ray tracing system.. I did something similar on the atari 5200... although my walls were solid colors
04:19:52 <calamari> it basically takes the environment as a ceiling, a back wall, and a floor
04:20:33 <calamari> it projects in 2-d space to find out how far away the wall is, then shades accordingly
04:20:47 <RodgerTheGreat> I understand the basics of how it functions, I'm just curious about the implementation
04:21:47 <calamari> back when I was messing around with EsoShell, someone came across a javascript "unix" computer
04:21:57 <calamari> booted up, drives, etc.. was pretty cool
04:28:59 <Sgeo> calamari, are you going to poke around with PSOX 1.0a1?
04:30:47 <calamari> I downloaded it.. sure, I'll take a look :) right now I'm trying to get this usb wireless adapter to work
04:34:10 <Sgeo> I really should go to sleep soon
04:35:26 <calamari> well it'll be there on my desktop enticing me :)
04:38:58 <Sgeo> http://info.prevx.com/aboutprogramtext.asp?PX5=44D8861244FEA8A800F3006DE82E120078ABB02F I didn't know EICAR Test File was bad..
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04:39:22 <Sgeo> "This file is considered to have some unsafe aspects and is part of the malware group, EICAR_Test_file_not_a_virus!."
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05:05:30 <GregorR> Remember, I wrote a MISC simulator in JS.
05:05:35 <GregorR> It can run Hello World et c.
05:08:04 <pikhq> I thought that was a MIX simulator?
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05:57:06 <RodgerTheGreat> alright, who was it that was asking me about "cosm" the other day? I thought it was pikhq, but apparently I was mistaken.
06:00:42 <RodgerTheGreat> This project died several months ago. However, there was some interest in bringing it back.
06:01:13 <RodgerTheGreat> The problem is, I wasn't sure where I wanted to go with the story. That's where you guys come in...
06:01:32 <RodgerTheGreat> who would be interested in helping me write a continuation?
06:03:43 <RodgerTheGreat> my rules are: 1) it should be funny, original and interesting (I can help on the "funny" part), 2) I do not draw porn. Implied or partial nudity will be used sparingly, if at all, and only in the service of a good storyline. 3) No guarantees on delivery dates, ever. Other than that, anything goes.
06:04:58 <calamari> what does "poit" mean? just curious :)
06:05:25 <pikhq> calamari: Pinky & The Brain reference?
06:05:42 <calamari> guess that's why I don't get it :)
06:07:00 <RodgerTheGreat> there is also a second page: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/Cosm2.png
06:07:20 <RodgerTheGreat> and if people are interested, I located the planning sketches for pages 3 and 4
06:09:22 <calamari> got my wireless toing, but had to disable my firewall :(
06:17:08 <RodgerTheGreat> there we go- everything is in this folder: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/Cosm/
06:17:35 <adu> my favorite is "blarf"
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06:25:44 <calamari> I'm not sure I followed it.. so maybe I should go to bed .. hehe
06:26:20 <calamari> were you working on homework on the last page?
06:27:32 <RodgerTheGreat> although, ironically, the first page started as a doodle on the back of a homework assignment
06:28:03 <RodgerTheGreat> the question was "what is the meaning of life", and the response is "t++"
06:28:38 <RodgerTheGreat> to clarify, it launches into the molecular structure of DNA and a regex defining life as permutations of these elements
06:28:46 <calamari> ++t might be more efficient :)
06:28:59 <RodgerTheGreat> Life plus energy equals life. Therefore, life implies life.
06:29:15 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a complicated way of stating that life has no inherent purpose beyond existing
06:29:33 <calamari> doesn't have to save t first before incrementing :)
06:29:35 <oerjan> don't you mean while (t++) ? and the question is whether t is negative or positive...
06:30:46 <RodgerTheGreat> see, the expectations of this audience were part of why it was so hard to write
06:30:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't want to go into what I had to do to get the prime on page 2
06:31:15 <calamari> did you use an esolang to generate it?
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06:36:17 <RodgerTheGreat> so... is anybody interested in the collaborative writing idea?
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15:37:00 <ihope> I take it someone has arrived.
15:37:03 <RodgerTheGreat> I think the crowd here is sufficiently pedantic to appreciate this: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm
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15:45:24 <RodgerTheGreat> "*One can cure oneself of the not un- formation by memorizing this sentence: A not unblack dog was chasing a not unsmall rabbit across a not ungreen field."
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15:59:50 <pikhq> Already read it, I think, actually.
15:59:59 * pikhq pulls it up to see if that's true
16:00:19 <pikhq> Ah, that one. I adore that Orwell essay.
16:04:48 <pikhq> Although I'm guilty of moderately prententious diction; my range of vocabulary makes it quite difficult to not use such diction.
16:06:55 <pikhq> But some of his examples are overdoing it, even to me, Mr. Dictionary. :p
16:07:23 <pikhq> (I mean really: somebody actually *wrote* like that? *hurl*)
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16:41:12 <ihope> The exportation of productivity and therefore buying power to other nations is not harmless to the well-being of those people who live in those countries from which productivity is exported.
16:48:42 <pikhq> Of course not; it's damned good for China, India, etc.
16:52:29 <oerjan> trade, when reasonably fair, is not a zero-sum game
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17:04:01 * Sgeo wonders if ihope was interested in PSOX
17:05:55 <Sgeo> interested enough to care that there was an alpha release (no custom domains, and domains other than 0-2 haven't been defined yet)
17:07:15 <ihope> At the moment, not especially, really.
17:07:24 <ihope> I may feel different tomorrow. :-P
17:12:13 <ihope> Yay, a method for assigning every rational number in (0,1) to a dyadic rational number.
17:13:39 <ihope> The rational numbers in (0,1) are isomorphic to all rational numbers, the dyadic rational numbers in (0,1), all dyadic rational numbers, the numbers with a terminating decimal expansion in (0,1), all numbers with a terminating decimal expansion...
17:14:31 <oerjan> all elements of any infinite countable set...
17:15:57 <ihope> By "isomorphic" I mean "order isomorphic", not plain old of-the-same-cardinality.
17:17:07 <oerjan> ok in that case, any densely ordered countable set with no endpoints
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17:17:31 <ihope> This makes the proof that every countable ordinal number is order isomorphic with a subset of the real numbers seem obvious. :-P
17:18:17 <ihope> I'm sure every ordered countable set is order isomorphic with a subset of the rational numbers.
17:18:54 <oerjan> and it is also order isomorphic with a subset of any set such as i mean
17:19:29 <oerjan> but does that mean any two such are isomorphic...
17:19:58 <ihope> I think so, but let me think on it.
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17:20:53 <ihope> If S and T are isomorphic with subsets of each other...
17:21:29 <oerjan> that in itself is not enough, consider with and without endpoints
17:22:30 <oerjan> hm you want to select representatives in such a way that all elements are eventually used
17:23:01 <oerjan> ah you can do that with binary expansions
17:23:21 <oerjan> always pick the candidate with least denominator, i think
17:24:07 <ihope> That's my isomorphism, pretty much.
17:24:17 <oerjan> essentially building an ordered binary tree
17:24:33 <ihope> A paste: http://pastebin.ca/897553
17:25:45 <ihope> Enumerate the rational numbers and put each in its place.
17:33:34 <ihope> If you try to enumerate, say, omega*2 by going 0, omega, 1, omega+1, 2, omega+2, etc., then you end up with 0, 0+, 0+-, 0++, 0+--, 0+++, 0+---, 0++++, etc. That doesn't go through all the possible strings of + and -.
17:35:43 <oerjan> that is because the order of omega*2 is not dense - there is not a point between any two points.
17:36:08 * oerjan hopes he remembers correctly that's what dense order means
17:37:45 <oerjan> indeed i did, says google and wikipedia
17:38:34 <ihope> Yeah, being dense means that it'll go through every string, I think: 0+-+- will be assigned to the first thing between 0+-+ and... what, 0++?
17:39:59 <ihope> No, 0+-- and 0+-+ surround 0+- and come after it.
17:40:35 <ihope> I think 0+-+ and 0+-, actually.
17:45:06 <ihope> I'll have to write up the Haskell program to translate between these automatically later. :-P
17:46:58 <ihope> And between the rational numbers a/b and (a+1)/b, there's usually a/(b-1).
17:47:34 <ihope> Meaning that there's no problem with finding a good way to enumerate the rational numbers beyond "lower denominators first".
17:48:27 <oerjan> hm such a haskell program would essentially be a quicksort
17:49:17 <oerjan> if you start with a list of elements, the first becomes 0, then you split the remainder according to whether they're less than or greater to the first
17:58:01 <ihope> Indeed, though I was thinking more like "here's a rational number; give me its tree string" and "here's a tree string; give me its terminating decimal".
17:58:11 <oerjan> oh and indeed between any two rational numbers there is one with smaller numerator _and_ denominator
17:58:34 <oerjan> closely connected to finding continued fractions, i recall
17:58:41 <ihope> What's between 1/4 and 1/5?
17:58:52 <oerjan> um could be one of the endpoints
17:59:13 <oerjan> if one endpoint has both smaller than the other
17:59:52 <ihope> Do you mean that between any two rational numbers with the same denominator, there's one with a smaller numerator and denominator than both?
18:00:21 <oerjan> no, between any two rational numbers, period, but possibly being one of them
18:01:01 <oerjan> a different way of stating it: in any interval, there is a unique rational number with smalles numerator and denominator
18:01:32 <ihope> The one with the smallest denominator is also the one with the smallest numerator?
18:01:37 <ihope> Yeah, sounds right.
18:01:56 <ihope> I'll be going, then, and reading the logs in case you have any more to say.
18:02:06 <oerjan> there could be several candidates with one the same
18:02:23 <oerjan> (e.g. 1/4 and 1/5 both have the same numerator)
18:02:25 <ihope> (And I hope once again I didn't sound rude there.)
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18:18:59 <Sgeo> Going to play with PSOX 1.0a1?
18:25:48 <Slereah> Is it some hypnosis method?.
18:30:52 <Slereah> Asking us of PSOX over and over again!
18:35:28 <Sgeo> Last I checked, pikhq was interested in PSOX
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19:43:47 <Sgeo> Did you see the latest news about PSOX?
19:47:01 <SimonRC> ihope: I thought you had gone mad up there when you started talking about an isomorphism between the rationals and the dyuadic rationals
19:48:28 <Sgeo> A PSOX alpha was released!
19:48:36 <SimonRC> do you have a clearer explanation of an "order isomorhpism" than the wikipedia one?
19:50:33 <oerjan> a bijection between two ordered sets that preserves the relative order of elements?
19:51:39 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/esoteric/PSOX-1.0a1.zip
19:51:45 <SimonRC> so order isomorphisms are a superset of bijections?
19:52:15 <Sgeo> (custom domains don't work yet, and only builtin domains 0-2 are defined. You can add your own domain to 3, though, for example, but that's only for testing)
19:53:16 <oerjan> "Hence, yet another characterization of order isomorphisms is possible: they are exactly those monotone bijections that have a monotone inverse."
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19:54:55 <SimonRC> but that means you have found a bijection between the rationals in (0,1) and the ----
19:55:10 <SimonRC> I was reading and typing "rationals" and thinking of the reals
19:55:58 <SimonRC> of course there is no bijection between the reals in (0,1) and the dyadic rationals
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20:08:50 <Sgeo> SimonRC, are you going to look at PSOX 1.0a1?
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20:31:32 <SimonRC> I think that psox might actually turn non-TC langs into TC ones
20:32:11 <Sgeo> I think it would depend on how the lang is non-TC. PSOX doesn't exactly have control structures, but there might be other things..
20:32:36 <Sgeo> Maybe things like providing storage to languages with finite storage
20:34:33 <SimonRC> the ability to "loop back" data from output to input might do it
20:35:45 <Sgeo> Maybe I should add creation of a loopback FD to either system or utils?
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20:37:06 <SimonRC> No, I mean the existing ability to loop back data.
20:37:15 <SimonRC> the byte->hex and all that
20:37:47 <Sgeo> Would a separate loopback FD be useful at all?
20:38:21 <Sgeo> Or a separate function(s) just for loopback? Or is that unnecessary?
20:39:03 <Sgeo> Are you going to experiment with the released alpha?
20:39:22 * Sgeo should add the svn command to retrieve the latest from SVN to the wiki, but I'm not good with SVN
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20:41:16 <Sgeo> May I msg you what you missed?
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21:00:14 <Slereah> Well, I witheld my "Admiral doctor cardinal"
21:00:39 <ehird`> On a totally unrelated note, yesterday I decided I would register -- on wikipedia -- the captcha it gives me on the registration form.
21:00:46 <ehird`> Unfortunately 2 were taken but then i nabbed 'tubepoint'
21:07:00 <ehird`> pikhq: I have a question
21:07:25 <ehird`> if Tcl's semantics are runtime modifiable, doesn't that mean a compiler can't be much more efficient than an interpreter, because it has to retain the structure?
21:07:26 <ehird`> if so, that's scary. i don't like languages that can't be compiled efficiently
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21:09:37 * Sgeo has VirusTotal reanalyze EICAR to see if the one that didn't see it sees it now
21:10:28 <Sgeo> FileAdvisor does not treat EICAR like a virus
21:11:52 <ehird`> Sgeo: VirusTotal? FileAdvisor?
21:11:58 <ehird`> what kind of crap is that
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21:16:35 <Sgeo> http://www.virustotal.com
21:16:40 <Sgeo> Scans files with multiple scanners
21:16:52 <Sgeo> FileAdvisor is one of them, and it does not pick up EICAR
21:17:27 <Sgeo> http://www.virustotal.com/analisis/11aeb342483ec52481fd7f4fbba72cd8
21:17:33 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: it was me who asked about cosm
21:17:52 <ehird`> Sgeo: maybe it's clever enoug hto know when it's been tricked
21:18:06 <RodgerTheGreat> so you read the entire conversation that came afterwards?
21:18:08 <Sgeo> ehird`, it's supposed to detect the file as a virus
21:18:19 <Sgeo> It's supposed to be an industry standard
21:18:45 <Sgeo> http://eicar.org/anti_virus_test_file.htm
21:18:53 <ehird`> Sgeo: yes, but it's sentient and recognizes evil tricks designed to fool it!
21:20:08 <ehird`> but it's not a *real* virus
21:20:08 <ehird`> so the virus scanner is just clever! :D
21:23:06 <Sgeo> Maybe FileAdvisor was not set up properly by VirusTotal
21:25:17 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: hm, most of it
21:25:17 <ehird`> Sgeo: maybe it just doesn't recognize it
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21:25:33 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: well, my only suggestion is that free iPods must be involved, somewhere
21:25:35 <ehird`> and they must eventually be recalled upon and become a vital element of the story.
21:29:02 <ehird`> also incurring massive charges due to liberal application of the word 'free'
21:29:59 <RodgerTheGreat> I wouldn't mind including a livid, raging stallman in response to "free" something
21:30:17 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: trying to, but page 4 is absolutely unreadable at parts
21:30:17 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: well, you could make it that iPods are really hyperdimensional mind control objects or something?
21:30:54 <ehird`> so, who here wants a turkey bomb implementation
21:32:31 <Slereah> Wasn't Turkey Bomb a string of non-sensical terms designed as a joke?
21:34:50 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreat: you are the 2387129837129387129837th person in the universe thing
21:35:05 <ehird`> and the freeipods site are the funniest bunch of those
21:35:46 <ehird`> well, it's what my brain decided! ;)
21:35:51 <ehird`> mainly because of this http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Euroipods
21:37:41 <ehird`> Slereah: And yes, turkey bomb was pretty much that.
21:37:46 <ehird`> But it can be implemented, with enough hand-waving
21:38:05 <Slereah> Where can I find this jewel crafted in handwavium?
21:38:28 <ehird`> http://catseye.tc/projects/turkeyb/doc/turkeyb.html
21:40:22 <ehird`> But it will be, sometime.
21:42:01 <ehird`> Speaking of which, we need a UniCode committee
21:42:13 <ehird`> But unfortunately, #unicode is taken.
21:43:05 <oerjan> interpret it in twoducks. then it wioll have isen invented already
21:43:41 <Slereah> Let's design a twoduck processor.
21:44:04 <Slereah> All we need is some roman ring configuration of wormholes!
21:44:43 <ehird`> Slereah: Maybe I should change the name to UniScript. I mean, UniCode is an amusing name, but could cause problems...
21:44:47 <ehird`> Slereah: That's not in HHGTTG
21:44:51 <oerjan> that would be the future quasi-perfect imparticiple of "to be"
21:46:51 <oerjan> and in a different timeline, i woulden not haved invented this on the spot, either
21:48:33 <ehird`> Slereah: anything re: uniCode's name?
21:49:01 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:TwoDucks
21:50:33 <ehird`> Slereah: it's not as funny though :P
21:51:14 <ehird`> Sgeo: I ought to write a twoducks interp :P
21:51:27 <Slereah> ehird`: Got some exotic matter?
21:51:37 <ehird`> Slereah: It's not neccessarily uncomputable.
21:51:54 <ehird`> (For input rewinding, we'll just pretend we never did the input, and use ncurses to scribble over where the input was entered. Output would also be scribbled over.)
21:52:24 <Slereah> Well, the fact that it's not uncomputable doesn't mean it's implementable!
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21:55:16 <ehird`> if it is computable on a turing machine, you can write an interpreter for it
21:55:44 <Slereah> Well, you can simulate the computations it can do
21:55:56 <Slereah> But not the actual machine.
21:56:25 <Slereah> I'm also not sure it's not uncomputable.
21:56:34 <ehird`> soo - we have UniCode, UniScript, any other names?
21:56:41 <Slereah> There's a very similar machine that's believed to be uncomputable
21:57:58 <ehird`> oh yeah, and UniCode/Script/Kitten will have its own editor
21:58:06 <ehird`> just because working with that kind of crazy unicode otherwise would be near impossible
21:58:21 <ehird`> it'll hijack space as an expansion key so you can type regular characters (most programs won't include spaces, so this is ok)
21:58:24 <Slereah> Although it isn't very informative
21:58:37 <ehird`> i just need to find a good unicode monospaced font
21:58:49 <ehird`> also, it'll be reccomended to use that editor to hack on the interpreter because of the same unicode stuffs ;P
22:00:37 <ehird`> oh yeah, and it'll use a huge, unantialiased, black on white, bold font to avoid any possible ambiguity of characters
22:01:50 <Slereah> Well, as long as we don't use the 100.000 chars, and only unambiguous ones, it probably won't be a problem
22:02:47 <ehird`> editing unicode can be hard
22:02:55 <ehird`> an unambigious font like that is vital
22:04:22 <ehird`> the problem is i cannot find a comprehensive *monospace* font
22:06:31 <ehird`> dejavu sans mono doesn't count because it's not nearly as legible enough and doesn't include enough chars
22:07:11 <ehird`> That's not monospaced.
22:07:20 <ehird`> and Lucidia Mono is not unicode, iirc
22:09:00 <ehird`> Slereah: coding font. all the letters are the same width. you know?
22:09:27 <ehird`> Slereah: You know... like you wouldn't edit code with Arial...
22:09:33 <ehird`> They look type-writery most of the time..
22:11:57 <ehird`> Can you copy and paste that back to me?
22:12:27 <ehird`> That looks great, I think
22:13:14 <ehird`> That one does not display.
22:13:38 <ehird`> Slereah: That previous one looked like >>> to you. correct?
22:14:05 <oerjan> looked like >>> to me, anyhow...
22:14:57 <ehird`> I am testing out FreeMono Bold 18pt.
22:15:01 <ehird`> It seems like a good fit.
22:21:19 <ehird`> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/25c9/index.htm brilliant
22:22:01 <timotiis> they're both failing here, but I happen to know that Lmoderntt doesn't handle unicode properly
22:22:39 <Sgeo> I suppose that it's illegal to scrape that site's images of unicode chars and make them into a font?
22:23:01 <ehird`> timotiis: it's not in utf-8 for mine, xchat is stupid
22:23:20 <ehird`> Sgeo: It uses Code2000.
22:23:20 <ehird`> Which is shareware, anyway.
22:23:20 <ehird`> So it would be very bad.
22:23:37 <timotiis> code2000 is however a very good set of fonts for unicode stuff
22:24:02 <timotiis> ehird`: that wouldn't matter, lmtt probably doesn't have the glyph
22:24:25 <ehird`> timotiis: code2000 isn't monospaced though.
22:24:27 <timotiis> anyway, if you're dealing with unicode, why not just reimplement apl and be done with it
22:24:34 <timotiis> that's a reasonable point, admittedly
22:24:40 <Sgeo> Does decodeunicode use a different font?
22:24:41 <ehird`> And appears to be good looking at large sizes in bold
22:24:45 <ehird`> and because APL isn't as cool as uniscript, and doesn't use as many chars
22:25:32 <ehird`> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2061/index.htm POW! Function application!
22:30:31 <Sgeo> http://www.decodeunicode.org/en/box_drawing flow control?
22:31:05 <RodgerTheGreat> hell, you could probably do a whole 2d language with just those
22:31:20 <Slereah> Some sort of circuit emulation?
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22:36:17 <ehird`> Sgeo: box drawing will be used for modules
22:39:48 <ehird`> you could write a little block which read input in a certain way
22:39:57 <ehird`> then using the box drawing and arrow characters, 'connect' it to another part
22:40:09 <ehird`> (the language will be 2d in some cases.)
22:45:54 <ehird`> Slereah: Made UniScript/whatever it's called
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