00:00:04 prolog would be even more fun though 00:00:15 the difficult part is already done for me 00:00:15 :P 00:00:48 Hutton does it nicely http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~gmh/countdown.pdf , and Shin-Cheng Mu repeats it much much more elegantly http://www.iis.sinica.edu.tw/~scm/pub/countdown704.ps.gz 00:01:11 crap. 00:01:18 I HATE BEING LATE TO DOING STUFF >:E 00:01:18 :p 00:02:03 oh crap, haskell 00:02:08 i have been out-1337ed 00:02:16 waaaaaaaaaah 00:02:18 The language doesn't matter much 00:02:35 faxathisia: but it's been done before and in the most awesomest language 00:02:36 >:( 00:02:50 WITH LIST COMPREHENSIONS!! shit. 00:02:53 lol 00:04:45 faxathisia: maybe i ought to write a prolog version 00:04:50 i mean it'd just be a few statements 00:04:57 no actual working-out code, if my ideas are right 00:05:14 yeah that'd be cool 00:06:10 You must show me if you do :P 00:06:31 It's great when you can get really declarative Prolog code 00:06:32 faxathisia: it'll probably be ugly. i suck at prolog 00:06:33 :) 00:06:36 heh 00:06:41 You have read http://muaddibspace.blogspot.com/2008/01/generate-test-and-intertwine-aim-here.html ? 00:06:50 i don't thinkn so? 00:07:08 you probably know the stuff but it's nice 00:08:35 don't ever assume i know something 00:08:35 :) 00:10:15 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:11:15 a language for doing things like the countdown problem would be neat 00:11:21 kind of like prolog but not really 00:11:32 you give it a problem and a domain. 00:11:36 hehe.. what difference? 00:11:36 like, domain of countdown: 00:12:53 domain countdown(T) := {(x|x > 0), +(x|x < T), -, *(x|x < T), /}. 00:13:00 you get the idea. 00:13:19 (- doesn't have to be checked because it will always yield an int in the same domain) 00:13:30 T is the target of course 00:14:10 hm 00:14:13 you could even do this 00:14:25 domain countdown(T) := {(x|x > 0, x < T), +, -, *, /}. 00:14:35 I think you may be able to do that in Prolog directly 00:14:43 faxathisia: sure, but not stated as nicely 00:15:07 domains are rock-hard contracts, there is simply no such thing as an in countdown above the target. 00:16:12 actually 00:16:15 i should be something like 00:16:17 X+X 00:16:21 hmm 00:16:22 let me rewrite 00:17:05 domain countdown(t) := {E | (x | x > 0, x < t), E+E, E-E, E*E, E/E} 00:18:18 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 00:19:50 faxathisia: 00:19:53 ^countdown 00:19:53 domain (t) : {E | (x | x > 0, x < t), E+E, E-E, E*E, E/E}. 00:19:53 problem (t,s) => domain (t) ^ s : ?(x | x = t). 00:21:00 hope it's understandable 00:21:00 :) 00:21:36 basically the interpreter spends a crapload of time inside a crazy inference engine to come up with something in the domain that satisfies the constraints. 00:21:53 similar to prolog? yes. 00:21:55 but not identical. 00:23:31 well, faxathisia disappeared 00:23:40 no I didn't 00:23:45 haha 00:23:51 were you vomiting over my crap code 00:24:49 nah 00:24:59 I just wrote the program :P 00:25:08 my solutions crap though.. 00:26:05 faxathisia: or marvelling over it?! 00:26:22 -!- ehird has quit ("Leaving"). 00:26:43 -!- ehird has joined. 00:26:47 did i miss seomething 00:27:17 You missed most of my marvelling :L 00:27:27 * ehird checks logs 00:27:27 marginally.. 00:27:41 no you didn't miss anything 00:27:53 heh 00:28:00 last i heard was 'no i didn't 00:28:25 faxathisia: well, anyway 00:28:27 opinions? 00:29:21 nah00:24:49 00:29:21 I just wrote the program :P00:24:59 00:29:21 my solutions crap though.. 00:29:23 i didn't see that 00:29:24 but anyway 00:29:30 what's your opinion on my code/language :P 00:29:47 I think it odd... 00:29:56 Can you solve other things with it? 00:30:09 what about say, magic squares? 00:30:42 faxathisia: Beats me 00:30:44 I'll give it a try,. 00:31:02 hmm 00:31:04 yes, i'd say 00:31:06 but it'd be non-trivial 00:31:07 :) 00:31:12 well, more trivial than all other soliutions 00:31:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:31:16 but not something i want to type up at this time 00:31:22 faxathisia: something a bit simpler, maybe? 00:31:33 i came up with an evolution-based programming language today 00:32:18 it's interesting how far you can go with just "is close to" 00:32:59 support mainly for vectors 00:34:10 for example, a text-recognition program is just a few "is close to"'s 00:34:21 after you've specified the forms of the letters ofc 00:34:36 faxathisia: no? :( 00:35:00 the main idea was the graphical interface, though, i have no idea how good genetic algos really are for text-recognition ;) 00:37:12 pemutations of a list 00:37:35 faxathisia: okay 00:37:40 time to invent some more semantics 00:37:40 :) 00:38:19 hmm 00:38:31 faxathisia: give me another problem while i work out how to elegantly express that 00:38:32 :P 00:38:34 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:45:11 Do you want to see my Prolog solution? 00:45:15 faxathisia: Sure 00:45:47 http://rafb.net/p/IWhs0F65.txt 00:47:34 wowzers. 00:48:20 faxathisia: very nice 00:48:28 ty :) 00:49:10 p.s. 00:49:13 /Users/ehird/countdown.pl:1-3: warning: singleton variables [Error] for countdown/3 00:49:14 :P 00:49:44 you can replace Error with _ if you like 00:49:53 faxathisia: you should optimize it to use all sources, if possible 00:50:04 or at least look for short solutions if you don't want to make it do that :P 00:50:06 is that case do 00:50:09 term(Numbers, Term, []) 00:50:20 then it will use every number 00:50:30 faxathisia: well, not if it doesn't work without it 00:50:33 but at least err on that side 00:53:25 faxathisia: it generates duplicates 00:53:26 e.g. 00:53:28 X = 1+1-1 00:53:28 X = 1+1-1 00:53:28 X = 1*1 00:53:28 X = 1*1 00:53:44 I don't mind 00:53:59 faxathisia: is there a way to fix it? 00:55:07 faxathisia: hmm, it also generates trivial permutations 00:55:11 rearranging a*b, e.g. 00:56:06 you can go setof(X, example(X), Y). % to get Y = [list, of, all, unique, solutions] 00:56:28 You could have some canonical form for expressions to remove permutations 00:56:36 I don't see much reason to though 00:56:43 anyway my program is really stupid 00:56:52 meh 00:57:01 Shin-Cheng Mu does it perfectly :) 00:57:30 also, faxathisia -- 00:57:31 | ?- setof(X, countdown([100,8,1,8,2,9], 983, X), Y). 00:57:34 horrendously slow! 00:57:38 hasn't aborted yet 01:03:57 also if i could strip the tex crap from that shin-cheng mu paper i'd be using it 01:03:58 :) 01:09:15 faxathisia: or if you did that for me, like evevryone should do when i hint at something 01:09:18 i mean, ahem 01:09:19 :) 01:13:43 faxathisia: oh 01:13:53 does your program settle for a near number if it can't get it exactly? 01:14:00 No 01:14:09 i guess i'm less theoretical and more 'i want a computer that's really good at playing countdown' 01:16:25 faxathisia: :) 01:34:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:35:16 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving"). 01:43:06 -!- ehird has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 01:53:08 for x = infinity to 0 print x 01:57:56 Sorry, but my computer seems to dislike decrementing infinity. 02:05:04 -!- calamari has joined. 02:38:30 -!- puzzlet has quit ("Lost terminal"). 02:39:13 calamari, pikhq tried PSOX 1.0a1 yet? 03:11:00 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:17:46 * Sgeo should sleep 03:30:15 Did I happen to mention that it's a bitch to get Gentoo up and running from scratch? :p 03:33:56 You mentioned that you were setting up Gentoo. Any difficulties are implied when you said "Gentoo" 03:33:56 >.> 03:34:09 LMAO 04:08:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:08:54 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:07:13 -!- johnl has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:07:17 -!- johnl has joined. 05:08:14 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:11:47 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 06:49:43 -!- slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:49:47 -!- slereah__ has joined. 07:07:02 -!- slereah__ has quit (Connection timed out). 07:14:04 -!- Slereah has joined. 07:37:34 -!- olsner has joined. 07:58:13 yes, I'm the first google hit for "mod_rewrite turing complete" now! :P 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:11:25 Are you also the only one? 08:26:35 no, there are also a few blogs and some hand-waving mailing list posts about mod_rewrite being turing complete 08:27:03 (but none, afaics, who have actually implemented a turing complete language with mod_rewrite) 08:37:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:40:45 -!- sebbu has joined. 08:43:15 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:21:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:03:44 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 10:09:57 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:09:57 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 10:30:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:31:54 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 11:09:39 -!- fax has joined. 11:17:00 -!- faxathisia has quit (Nick collision from services.). 11:22:58 -!- fax has changed nick to faxathisia. 11:31:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 12:54:17 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 13:28:03 -!- timotiis has joined. 13:43:19 -!- Hiato has joined. 14:09:23 -!- slereah__ has joined. 14:09:34 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:51:33 -!- RedDak has joined. 15:39:50 -!- Hiato has left (?). 15:45:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:45:25 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:03:10 -!- jix has joined. 16:34:32 -!- sekhmet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:37:10 -!- sekhmet has joined. 16:49:31 -!- sekhmet_ has joined. 16:51:22 -!- sekhmet has quit ("Reconnecting"). 16:53:52 -!- sekhmet_ has changed nick to sekhmet. 16:55:57 -!- Corun has joined. 17:03:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:39:32 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:15:42 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:15:47 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:28:38 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:07:58 -!- sarehu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:16:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:33:55 Sgeo: do you have any thoughts about using PSOX as a glue layer between esolangs? 19:34:09 that is, that allows esolangs to call functions written in other esolangs 19:34:12 I'm not sure how that would work, exactly 19:34:26 you'd need to somehow cause both programs to be run under PSOX in separate threads 19:38:07 I don't think that really fits in with the current form of PSOX.. maybe a custom domain? 19:38:48 custom domain would seem most reasonable 19:43:42 I think I'm going to work on making custom domains available now 19:43:53 But does this mean I should release an a2, or can I leave it in SVN? 19:45:24 Also, domains.txt is rather inelegant :( 19:52:25 -!- sarehu has joined. 19:55:19 -!- Hiat1 has joined. 19:55:35 Wassup :) 19:55:50 Is there anyone here willing to aid their mad maths skillz 19:55:59 I can't think straight and need some help... 19:57:12 "mad maths"? 19:58:10 well, it's just that I think you need simultaneous equations for this thing, but I'm not sure where/how to extrapolate the necessary information 19:58:27 * Hiat1 admits it's not that mad, not really mad at all, it's just later for him 19:59:01 *late 19:59:41 what are you trying to do? 20:02:21 Math skills, is that you? 20:02:30 Are you telling me to kill them all? 20:03:15 a "word problem" or "story sum" (depending on where you were raised), either way I just can't seem to get it (seems like a logical impossibility to me). Feel free to say no, as it is cheesy and is probably very very easy, I just can't seem to get it... "A train passes completely through a tunnel in 5 minutes. A second train, twice as long as the first, passes through the tunnel in 6 minutes. If both trains are travelling at the same speed of 20:03:15 I work with complex numbers, draw graphs of the reciprocals in trig and programme fractals, yet this one eludes me... 20:03:38 either your client or mine cut off the end of the problem 20:03:48 could you try reposting it a bit at a time? 20:03:56 I can convert any BF program into a PSOX program automatically 20:04:08 ok, sure 20:04:19 "A train passes completely through a tunnel in 5 minutes. A second train, twice as long as the first, passes through the tunnel in 6 minutes.... 20:04:23 Thing is, it will only test the output pseudodomain and one use of the input pseudodomain 20:04:26 If both trains are travelling at the same speed of 24km/h, 20:04:31 etermine the length of the tunnel and the lengths of the trains" 20:04:33 (and the result acts as EOF=0) 20:04:34 *determine 20:04:59 can you see it all now? 20:05:01 yes 20:05:25 clearly it must take 1 minute for the length of the shorter train to pass through the tunnel 20:05:31 looks trivial 20:05:37 because that's the difference in length between the two trains, and they go at the same speed 20:05:41 thing is, it says that it takes it 5... 20:05:42 that should let you figure out how long they are 20:05:49 that's what my calculations said 20:06:13 5 minutes for the front of train 1 to enter the tunnel for the end of train 1 to leave the tunnel 20:06:15 I have the lengths, 2/5 km and 4/5 respectively 20:06:45 so it must take 4 minutes for the front of either train to get from the start of the tunnel to the end of the tunnel 20:07:16 ok, sure, I can't see why (other than average) 20:07:22 but it sounds tight 20:07:25 *right 20:07:47 because after the front of the train's reached the end of the tunnel, it takes another minute for the end of the train to escape from the tunnel 20:08:09 so that's 4 mins for front-front, and another 1 min to escape completely = 5 mins 20:08:15 the second train is 4+2=6 20:08:38 hrmm... Ok, I see this now 20:09:05 aha, I think I found my mistake 20:09:19 I was calculating the length of the tunnel in terms of whole train lengths 20:09:29 which it may not necessarily be 20:10:14 it is, though 20:10:18 it's 4 train-1 lengths long 20:10:22 or 2 train-2 lengths long 20:10:27 -!- sarehu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:10:50 out of interest, could we not say 3 mins for front-front and then + 2 to escape and the same for train 2 (+3 there though) 20:10:59 no 20:11:01 oh wait, nevermind 20:11:03 train 2 is twice as long 20:11:08 so it must take twice as long to escape 20:11:08 yep 20:11:26 Ithank you so very much ais523 20:11:30 *Thank 20:11:55 can I put you in my maths book as "anonymous tutor" ? :P 20:12:39 oh, right, was wondering for a second there, since i missed the train1.length=2*train2.length 20:12:55 Hiat1: that's fine 20:13:06 :D 20:13:38 although of course the chance your maths teacher has heard of me is nowadays non-zero (if still quite small), so you might want to try a bit of name-dropping if you prefer 20:13:51 anyway, v=s/t<=>t=s/v, where v=velocity, s=distance, t=time, then just (t+a)/24=(1/12)h && (t+b)/24=(1/10)h && b=2a 20:14:03 and solve 20:15:34 asi523: you never know ;) 20:15:34 oklopol: yeah, we use D=S.T but same thing (I prefer Fnet=ma or X=((vf+vi)/2).t :P though that is irrelevant) 20:15:58 (wouldn't call that a math problem) 20:16:16 hmm 20:16:32 how would you use F=ma for this? 20:16:36 (yes indeed, but I like all the physics problems we have, with the lifts (elevators) acceleration and impact timing etc...) 20:16:59 i hate that, never any challenge, just a million places for error with the precision and all :| 20:17:03 (pendulums are nice too, preservation of energy etc) 20:17:12 heh, true 20:17:17 basically, i get to suck at something trivial. 20:17:40 doesn't happen often I believe :) 20:17:49 what? 20:17:59 you sucking at something trivial 20:18:08 oh, believe me, it does. 20:18:36 on another note, it's impossible to write an Underload interpreter in Befunge-93, right? 20:18:36 i have serious problems with anything related to my senses 20:18:47 due to that language not actually being TC unless it uses bignums 20:18:57 err 20:19:02 and moreover the bounded-storage is actually a problem on some practical programs 20:19:05 * Hiat1 infers that it sounds right enough to be true 20:19:09 doesn't befunge have a stackie? 20:19:12 yes 20:19:14 one stack 20:19:16 that only stores numbers 20:19:21 so Befunge is a PDA 20:19:51 i'm fairly sure you can make an asm-tc ul interpreter, because befunge is tc with the addition of an infinite grid 20:19:59 yes 20:20:02 Funge-98 would be fine 20:20:17 the problem is that the finiteness of the grid actually impacts on practical Underload programs in some cases 20:20:29 such as the factorial one on the wiki, which has intermediate strings more than 80 characters long 20:20:50 does funge-98 do infinite dimensions? 20:21:13 the size of the grid is equal to the size of the integer type IIRC 20:21:19 the other day, i was thinking, might be interesting to play an infinite dimensional tic-tac-toe 20:21:33 * ais523 has played 4D tic-tac-toe 20:21:37 on a 4x4x4x4 grid 20:21:40 me too 20:21:47 I don't think infinite dimensions would make it much more interesting 20:22:00 also 10D in my head... for about two moves ;) 20:22:06 oklopol: I ended up adding a rule 'a player doesn't win unless they point out that they won' 20:22:07 it might 20:22:18 you could do it in Hilbert space easily enough 20:22:24 it essentially gets to coprimeness of the lengths of your pda's creating a move 20:22:34 there's some interesting math there, i believe. 20:22:51 i mean, the repeating lenghts of the infinite strings produced by them 20:22:58 *lengths 20:23:00 err 20:23:04 i always fail that word 20:23:24 * ais523 once managed to misspell the same word 6 times in a row 20:23:31 I've forgotten which word it was, though 20:23:31 :) 20:23:48 and the ironic thing was after 3 times I knew I was doing it and tried to avoid it but kept on typoing anyway 20:24:14 i once typoed "muista", finnish for "remember", about 50 times in a row 20:24:19 i simply cannot write it 20:24:21 muista 20:24:26 well, i can now, it seems. 20:25:00 ofc once you just start flooding it until you get it, you probably write it the same way every time. 20:26:12 what would be a nice language for making repeating infinite strings 20:26:35 also, how interesting is the equivalence problem of two infinite vectors produced that way 20:26:36 I designed 1cnis for that purpose 20:26:45 lemme see that 20:26:50 although ironically it turned out not to be able to produce the exact string that I wanted to produce... 20:26:51 on the wiki i assume 20:26:52 yes 20:26:58 Great, custom domains seem to work 20:28:21 1cnis programs must be finitely long. 20:28:28 i'll try to remember that 20:28:31 * Sgeo should throw in some IllegalPSOXError's 20:28:55 the idea is that a finite program outputs infinite output 20:29:04 and so 1cnis can be used as an 'encoding' for certain sorts of infinite patterns 20:29:15 it couldn't manage 2^2^n in unary, though, AFAICT 20:29:28 although if you can figure out how to do that I'd be really pleased to know 20:31:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:32:26 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:33:41 i like that 20:33:44 Should I write a BF-to-PSOXBF program? 20:34:23 your languages have a certain pro feel to them 20:34:37 Sgeo: would it just allow for quoting of NULs, or would it do something else? 20:34:45 (although i just remember two right now) 20:35:07 Allow for quoting for nuls, and convert the ",", and add PSOX-Init 20:35:25 convert , to allow for EOF conventions? 20:35:36 Making any regular BF program that assumes EOF=0 run under PSOX 20:35:51 ais523, in PSOX, you need to use a function before getting input 20:36:00 why? 20:36:13 to tell PSOX that it needs to pass input to you? 20:36:18 yes 20:36:48 hmm... is there some way you could use select() in PSOX to determine whether the program being run was looking for input? 20:36:49 Naive comma: [-].+..+++++++++.,,, 20:37:01 ais523, wouldn't work under Windows 20:37:11 oh, forte is also yours 20:37:13 niec 20:37:22 full list at User:ais523 on the wiki 20:37:29 some are better than others 20:39:03 ":≠ has finite data storage and is reversible, and so must terminate." this sounds like you're also saying reversibility limits tcness 20:39:07 err 20:39:11 limits computational power 20:39:20 no 20:39:24 the finiteness limits tcness 20:39:32 a reversible finite language must terminate 20:39:48 reversible languages with infinite storage, otoh, can be TC 20:39:59 yeah, but you're saying A & B => C, where actually A => C 20:40:02 that is a bit confusing 20:40:05 but that was just a side note 20:40:10 nothing wrong with it 20:40:15 'must terminate' is different from 'not TC' 20:40:26 it's more restrictive 20:40:39 ah, indeed. 20:40:53 Hiat1: stupid error here 20:41:08 i do make them 20:46:52 i want a reversible language with assignation 20:46:57 yes, but occasionaly 20:47:06 let us say, few and far between 20:48:06 no. i usually fail at everything i do unless it happens completely within my head. 20:48:16 that's my *thing* 20:48:25 oklopol: I just posted an Unassignable program I found lying around on my hard drive to Talk:Unassignable on the wiki 20:48:46 I have an Unassignable->C++ compiler here, as well, but it seems to be using outdated C++ 20:48:55 what's the modern equivalent of #include ? 20:49:02 yeah, I'm the same, diagrams, pictures, graphs etc only help to confuse me. I must see it all in my head, or nothing at all 20:49:28 that's right ais523 20:49:35 at least I use it in Dev-C++ 20:50:05 most of the header files (the ones which were in C) lost the .h at the end and gained a c at the start 20:50:16 as in C's #include became C++'s #include 20:50:23 but iostream was never in C to begin with 20:50:34 and #include works but fails to include cout, which I use 20:50:36 #include 20:50:42 err... 20:50:46 i shouldn't fail to do that 20:50:55 what about system.h 20:50:55 you do know it has everything within std::? 20:51:01 for console input output 20:51:11 oh, of course 20:51:12 (long time since I messed with this) 20:51:15 I forgot the 'using namespace std' 20:51:25 yarr 20:51:30 works now, thanks 20:52:01 that did require some heavy thinking, but np 20:52:20 hm... 20:52:38 what if a program's first sction under psox is to run a psox command? 20:52:53 hmm 20:52:55 is the command's result guaranteed to appear before any other input? 20:52:58 main->call is called 20:53:08 Yes 20:53:09 but you just have a run function in main 20:53:14 in the example program 20:53:19