00:00:11 <slereah__> It's not relativity. It's SCIENCE!
00:00:31 <slereah__> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers/LUR.jpg
00:05:14 <es0n00b> (sorry - got a phone call. brb)
00:06:02 <ihope> !daemon ecneics bf +[]
00:06:27 <ihope> !daemon ECNEICS bf +[]
00:08:14 <ihope> !daemon cat bf +[,.[-]+]
00:08:20 <ihope> !daemon message cat Hello, world!
00:08:45 <ihope> Now it'll never work again, of course.
00:09:13 <ihope> It didn't print it that time.
00:09:20 <Sgeo> Now to write a BF program that can go online
00:10:06 <es0n00b> what does Egobot do. BF interpreter??
00:10:25 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:10:43 -!- EgoBot has joined.
00:10:54 <es0n00b> !daemon message cat Hello, world!
00:11:22 * Sgeo wonders if EgoBot will ever be able to do PSOX stuff
00:11:35 <oerjan> es0n00b: EgoBot got disconnected in the middle
00:12:05 <slereah__> Well, I don't go well with eager evaluation.
00:12:11 <es0n00b> !unlambda `.o`.l`.l.`e.`hi
00:12:29 <oerjan> !unlambda ````.b.u.t.ti
00:13:01 <es0n00b> !unlambda `````.h.e.l.l.oi
00:13:20 <es0n00b> i've go no idea how that works, but thats kind of cool
00:13:48 <slereah__> It evaluates the innermost first expression.
00:13:53 <ihope> !unlambda `.d`.t`.c`.u`.b`````.o.f.s.a.ei
00:13:56 <es0n00b> does unlamba have anything to do with mu-recursion
00:14:16 <slereah__> Well, there's an isomorphism between the two.
00:14:16 <ihope> What's mu-recursion?
00:14:20 <es0n00b> the discussion last night this slereah_ has really got me thinking
00:14:46 <ihope> !unlambda `.d`.e`.t`.a`.c`````.o.b.f.u.si
00:14:54 <es0n00b> like, can you do math using unlambda
00:14:59 <ihope> Though now it's not as obfuscated.
00:15:10 <ihope> Unlambda's Turing-complete, all right.
00:16:30 <es0n00b> sleraeh_> that language we talked about last night, what was it called (where (^f.f)a=a)?
00:17:07 <oerjan> es0n00b: there is an easy encoding of lambda calculus into unlambda (apart from minor details of execution order)
00:17:11 <slereah__> Really, Star Trek 2 needed that lines.
00:17:14 <es0n00b> ahh - thats right. im getting lamda, mu church numerals, all these ideas confused right now
00:17:21 <ihope> Is KHAAAAAAAAAAN! the new jinx?
00:17:21 * Sgeo works on the first ever Internet enabled Brainfuck program
00:17:55 <es0n00b> lambda calculus can only work on numbers right. or can it work on strings
00:17:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:18:09 <es0n00b> ie: does lambda calculus have a "Hello, world!"?
00:18:20 <oerjan> es0n00b: lambda calculus per se has nothing to do with either numbers or strings
00:18:33 <oerjan> you just can encode anything in it
00:18:34 -!- helios24 has quit ("Leaving").
00:18:39 <slereah__> Well, lambda calculus itself can't print anything.
00:18:42 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:18:47 <slereah__> But you can implement side effects and such
00:19:02 <ihope> Side effects, ugh. :-)
00:19:05 <es0n00b> thats what i thought. pass a string as a long hexdec number, process, then return a hexdec number, convert back to a string
00:19:18 <ihope> That's roughly what Lazy K does.
00:19:37 <slereah__> I'm cool with side effects though.
00:19:49 <ihope> Is there actually a computable bijection between lambda calculus expressions and SKI calculus expressions mapping each expression to an equivalent one?
00:19:53 <slereah__> Lazy K can only do input -> output IIRC
00:20:10 <slereah__> ihope: Well, use abstraction reduction.
00:20:12 <es0n00b> was trying to think how you could input a string, and output the string in reverse (ie "hello"->"olleh")
00:20:58 <oerjan> ihope: well you have mappings in each direction, which may not be bijective
00:21:00 <es0n00b> <slereah__> what is *elimination
00:21:43 <oerjan> but if you make them injective i think you can apply scr๖der-bernstein to fix it up
00:21:46 <es0n00b> <slereah__> Abstraction elimination does what??
00:22:00 <slereah__> It converts lambda expressions in SKI combinators.
00:22:12 -!- timotiis has quit ("leaving").
00:23:19 <oerjan> although you might need to be clever to make it computable. hm.
00:24:26 <oerjan> (or to prove that it already is.)
00:27:20 <lament> es0n00b: the more you address people by surrounding their nick in less-than/greater-than marks, the more people will think that you're quoting what they had said previously
00:27:53 <slereah__> You usually only need to type four keys for name quoting!
00:28:23 <lament> es0n00b: you may notice that I address you by appending a colon to your nickname, but what actually happens is i type es and press Tab
00:29:06 <es0n00b> sorry - using web based client that doesnt have ways to do that
00:30:09 <es0n00b> ok - wife wants me to start doing house work. still have a lot of questions (as usual), but I'll get back later (probably another 12 hours)
00:30:46 -!- es0n00b has quit ("JWIRC applet").
00:41:47 -!- Corun has joined.
01:01:17 -!- ehird` has quit ("K-Lined by peer").
01:40:36 -!- slereah__ has changed nick to slereah_.
01:40:37 -!- slereah_ has changed nick to Slereah.
02:07:11 -!- Corun has quit ("Alone?").
02:43:43 <Sgeo> Ok, why is my program not working?
02:46:32 <pikhq> And what should it be doing?
02:46:59 <Sgeo> RodgerTheGreat, Brainfuck
02:47:38 <Sgeo> And I'm trying to pull from input and send to output except for the null I'll receive
02:49:13 <Sgeo> I think it's sending it correctly, but the program doesn't continue
02:52:00 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm not sending a 0x0A correctly
02:52:45 <pikhq> Is there any guarantee that the next cell is not 0?
03:00:31 <Sgeo> What's with the next cell?
03:02:02 -!- olsner has joined.
03:04:11 -!- pikhq has quit ("New kernel. Wheee.").
03:10:28 <Sgeo> Ok, almost there
03:14:49 <Sgeo> Yay the first ever Internet-aware BF program!
03:17:22 <Sgeo> .+++++++.>+.<+++.>-..<.,,,[-].+.-.++++++++++.>.<--.>.,+[,.]++.>[-]+++++++++++++++++.<++.>-------.>[-]+[[-].+..+++++++++.,,,.]++.-.-.++++++++++.
03:17:44 <Sgeo> ^^that program is Internet-aware under PSOX
03:19:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:19:17 <Sgeo> .+++++++.>+.<+++.>-..<.,,,[-].+.-.++++++++++.>.<--.>.,+[,.]++.>[-]+++++++++++++++++.<++.>-------.>[-]+[[-].+..+++++++++.,,,.]++.-.-.++++++++++.
03:24:54 <Sgeo> pikhq, if you want to try an Internet-aware BF application, get the latest PSOX from SVN and run:
03:25:03 <Sgeo> python PSOX.py bf online.b
03:25:22 <Sgeo> Then after the version information is printed, write something like:
03:25:26 <Sgeo> http://example.com
03:25:29 <Sgeo> and press Enter
03:26:19 <Sgeo> http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/impl/online.b
03:26:49 <Sgeo> pikhq, going to try it?
03:27:00 <pikhq> Tomorrow, absolutely.
03:27:21 <pikhq> Tonight, I'm just doing a hell of a lot of nothing.
03:29:38 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
03:30:10 <Sgeo> RodgerTheGreat, going to try it?
03:56:59 <Sgeo> In theory, a chat server can be made with a chat client written in BF
03:57:03 <Sgeo> Anyone want to do it?
04:02:22 -!- Sukoshi` has joined.
04:04:11 <pikhq> My question remains: where have you been the past several months?
04:04:43 <Sukoshi`> I have a life to deal with. And when I part this channel, I'll have a life to go back to :P
04:05:23 <pikhq> Who needs a life when there's PSOX and PEBBLE 2 to discuss?
04:06:11 <Sgeo> Yay pikhq indicated e cared about PSOX!
04:06:23 * Sgeo has PSOX on hilight
04:06:35 <pikhq> Sgeo: Well, of course I care. I just don't have the time to do major development ATM.
04:06:55 <pikhq> AP Japanese takes a good chunk out of your schedule when you actually want to do well in the class.
04:07:11 <Sukoshi`> The test looked really easy last time I checked.
04:07:17 <Sukoshi`> Maybe I'll take it for the heck of it this year.
04:07:24 <pikhq> Sukoshi`: Keep in mind that I've barely studied for the past 3 years.
04:07:36 <pikhq> And had a horrible, horrible teacher for 2 of them.
04:07:38 <Sukoshi`> I've graduated to reading short novels routinely.
04:07:49 <pikhq> (a weeks worth of studying would cover those 2 years.
04:07:55 <Sukoshi`> So I've reached that self-sustaining level where I can read for fun to keep up my skills.
04:08:08 <pikhq> I'm quite jealous.
04:08:16 <pikhq> ATM, I'm just now learning the 3rd-grade kanji. . .
04:08:27 * Sgeo is not a linguistic person
04:08:39 <pikhq> Perhaps it's easy for you, but, frankly, I'm way behind where I should be.
04:09:05 <pikhq> *That*, I'm quite a bit better at.
04:09:18 <Sukoshi`> Well, give me a definition of "better" :)
04:09:32 <Sukoshi`> I'm assuming you can deal with just about any conjugation found in manga?
04:09:46 <pikhq> I believe so, yes.
04:10:10 <pikhq> (I'd really like to pick up keigo a bit, though. . . That looks interesting, moderately difficult, yet worthwhile)
04:10:14 <Sukoshi`> Ah. I was going to give you a link to a grammar book, but you're past it then.
04:10:33 <Sukoshi`> Keigo is a lot lot lot lot lot (repeat as necessary) easier than most people make it out to be.
04:10:47 <Sukoshi`> Especially because your average Japanese writing uses a whole 20 Keigo verbs.
04:11:00 <Sukoshi`> ... Which are all as regular as their non-Keigo forms.
04:11:07 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Keigo.
04:11:16 <pikhq> Sgeo: Formal Japanese.
04:12:03 <pikhq> Sukoshi`: Easy summary, at least. ;)
04:12:10 <Keigo> I know someone who's quite good at Japanese
04:12:15 <Sukoshi`> Even Keigo nouns are not very difficult. Military terms are where I'm starting to stick.
04:12:42 <pikhq> Kanji are what's really screwing me up.
04:12:49 <Sukoshi`> I've started picking up Russian now because Japanese doesen't need the same time from me anymore that I gave it.
04:13:04 <pikhq> My vocabulary is decent, although it'd be better if I did know a lot more kanji. . .
04:13:04 <Sukoshi`> But I'm pretty sure I'll stop with the language acquisition after Russian.
04:13:12 <Sukoshi`> Are you learning Kanji independently?
04:13:17 -!- bd_ has joined.
04:13:25 -!- Keigo has changed nick to Sgeo.
04:14:01 <bd_> nihongo to kiite(ry
04:14:51 <bd_> Sgeo invited me in saying something about a discussion about japanese or something >.>
04:14:55 <Sukoshi`> pikhq: I meant, independently from vocabulary.
04:15:09 <Sukoshi`> ๆฅๆฌ่ชใๅใใใพใใใ
04:15:37 <bd_> ใใใใใพใฃใใๅใใใพใใใใ
04:16:10 <bd_> ๅ่ฉฑใจใใใใฆใ็งใฏๅ
จ็ถๅใใใชใใฎใงใๅฎๅฟใใ
04:17:05 <Sukoshi`> ่ชๅใใๆฅๆฌ่ชใง่
ใใใ่
ใใใใฐๆณฃใใพใใใใ
04:17:17 <pikhq> Sadly, my Unicode is not working ATM.
04:17:32 <pikhq> (I recently did a Gentoo reinstall, and have not gotten IME and such working again)
04:17:33 <Sgeo> I see it, but speak not a shred of Japanese
04:18:44 <bd_> Sukoshi`: ใใใฃใใใใชใใใ่ชๅใใๆฅๆฌ่ชใซ่
ใฎใใ่
ใใใฆใๆฎ้ใ ใจๆใใใฉใใใใซๅ
จ็ถๅใใใชใใใ
04:19:35 <Sukoshi`> ใใใซใใฆใใใใใใคใพใใชใ่ฉฑใงใใญใ
04:19:57 <Sukoshi`> ่ชๅทฑ็ดนไปใใพใใ็งใฏใSukoshiใใจใใใใพใใ
04:20:43 <Sukoshi`> ๏ผๅนดๅใซ่ช็ฟใๅงใพใใพใใฆใใใใ่ฉฑ็จๅบฆใ็ฟๅพใใพใใใ
04:21:16 <Sukoshi`> ใใใใใใ้กใใใพใใ
04:22:11 <bd_> ็งใฏใbd_ใใจ็ณใใพใใๅๅผทใๅงใใใฎใฏใปใปใปใพใๆๅใฏใใใพใ็้ข็ฎใใใชใใฃใใฎใงใใ่ฆใใฆใใพใใใใใใถใ๏ผๅนดๅใ ใฃใใจๆใใพใใใใใใใ้กใใใพใ
04:22:48 <Sukoshi`> Esolangใฎใใจใง่ๅณใใใใงใใฎใ
04:23:31 <bd_> ใใใปใปใปใชใใใใใใจใใ็จๅบฆใงใใญ๏ผ็ฌ
04:23:32 * pikhq woul really love to be up to reading short novels. . .
04:23:49 <pikhq> For that, I plan on actually (gasp) studying Japanese after high school.
04:24:51 <Sukoshi`> I transitioned from the manga/doujin level to the short novel level by immersing myself into a novel with notes.
04:24:59 <Sgeo> What are bd_ and Sukoshi` discussing?
04:25:11 <Sukoshi`> I copied the notes (which were vocabulary and grammatical notes), made some of my own, and basically got up to speed that way.
04:25:35 <pikhq> Sgeo: No idea; my terminal can't, ATM, display Japanese.
04:25:49 <pikhq> Sukoshi`: The problem being that I'm not at the manga/doujin level.
04:26:01 <bd_> I just got a copy of ookami to kousinryou in today :) I'm not quite sure if I'm up to reading it yet (kanji orz) but it's about time I started weaning myself off furigana...
04:26:20 <Sukoshi`> ๆฅๆฌ่ชๅๅผทๆนๆณใฎ่ฉฑ้กใใใใพใใ
04:26:39 <bd_> ็ขบใใซใใใพใใญ๏ผ็ฌ
04:26:39 <Sukoshi`> Hm. I stopped relying on Furigana a while ago.
04:26:41 <Sgeo> Can either of Sukoshi` or bd_ explain what you two are talking about, in ENGLISH please?
04:26:50 <Sgeo> And what's furigana
04:26:53 <bd_> Sukoshi`: well, I know how to do lookups... I just get lazy :)
04:27:06 <Sukoshi`> Heh. I don't even do the lookups :P
04:27:14 <Sukoshi`> (Too time consuming for the most part, and interrupt casual readings.)
04:27:33 <bd_> ไบๅนด้ใงใฉใใ ใใ
04:27:58 <bd_> though I know what you mean - sort of skip over and try to puzzle out what they meant?
04:28:03 <Sukoshi`> Most of the time it is one word or two, and I can pick up the *general* meaning in context. ้ค was one word which I inferred slightly off from the actual meaning when I looked it up later.
04:28:31 <bd_> depends on the material though
04:28:38 <Sukoshi`> ใฉใใใใชใๆฅๆฌ่ชใๆๆใช่ชใใๅฟ
ๆญปใซๅๅผทใใพใใใชใ
04:28:40 <bd_> ookami to kousinryou has a lot of economics stuff later on I think
04:29:00 <Sgeo> Am I going to get a response?
04:29:02 <Sukoshi`> I've read some stuff heavy on machinery/military, which is tough. But I haven't done much with economics and politics yet.
04:29:16 <Sukoshi`> Generally I tackle stuff like that electronically.
04:29:30 <bd_> Sgeo: well uh, it's sort of a random/self-introduction conversation thing
04:29:37 <Sukoshi`> Sgeo: Kanji lookups, because often-times Kanji have odd readings and act as certain words.
04:29:57 <Sukoshi`> And the way to look them up is cumbersome, so.
04:30:17 <bd_> I usually use pen input on a nintendo DS dictionary
04:30:22 <bd_> and if that fails, multiradical in wwwjdic
04:30:33 <Sgeo> Sukoshi`, people who speak fluent Japanese don't need to do these lookups?
04:30:47 <bd_> Sgeo: probably sometimes, there are a *lot* of kanji :)
04:30:55 <bd_> about 2000 is the level for /basic/ literacy
04:31:12 * Sgeo discovers a #japanese room
04:31:19 <bd_> and there are plenty more...
04:31:34 <bd_> and then you have fun things like name readings (nanori)
04:31:47 <Sukoshi`> My name readings are horrible.
04:31:52 <Sukoshi`> I really need to catch up on those.
04:32:06 <bd_> where any given set of name kanji has multiple readings, and any given spoken name has multiple possible kanji associated with it, and if you're not told what is what :|
04:32:15 <pikhq> My name readings are *nonexistent*.
04:33:12 <Sukoshi`> Come on. Can't you read ไธญๆฌ
04:33:31 <pikhq> No, but that's because my terminal can't display Unicode ATM.
04:33:39 <pikhq> I can't read question marks. :p
04:34:30 <pikhq> Those would be the *easy* ones. ;)
04:35:38 <Sgeo> "Konichiwa" is the extent of my knowledge of Japanese-anything, and I'm scared that even that might be wrong/idiotic
04:35:49 <bd_> kon'nichiwa
04:37:08 <Sukoshi`> I didn't for the first 6 months either.
04:37:34 <pikhq> Sukoshi`: For demonstration of how badly my first Japanese teacher sucked: he did not teach kana until 2nd year.
04:38:37 <pikhq> I self-taught kana first year.
04:39:01 <Sukoshi`> I'm aware that my school's Japanese program is one of the best, and I considered it haplessly slow.
04:39:23 <Sukoshi`> While I never took it, I have become the lofty "Japanese expert" of the school.
04:40:21 <pikhq> The lofty 'Japanese expert' of my school is a Japanese citizen.
04:40:54 <pikhq> Works out a bit better that way. ;)
04:40:59 * Sgeo was the lofty computer expert at his HS
04:41:08 * Sgeo wants to be that lofty expert in college
04:41:19 <Sukoshi`> And the lofty electricity/Physics expert.
04:41:20 <pikhq> In college, it sure as fuck won't be mine.
04:41:34 <pikhq> Not in a school with a damned good CS program. ;p
04:41:37 <Sukoshi`> College is coming up soon, and I intend to be the best there, so :)
04:41:49 <Sukoshi`> I'm lucky I have a day like today to catch my breath from the life stuff.
04:41:50 <Sgeo> pikhq, what college?
04:41:54 <pikhq> Summer job at Tuft's, then college.
04:42:07 <pikhq> Sgeo: Missouri University of Science & Technology.
04:42:16 <Sukoshi`> How come you didn't apply to CMU?
04:42:22 <Sgeo> Is SUNY Farmingdale considered to be good?
04:42:57 <Sukoshi`> Stanford and MIT are there too, but MIT is way up there.
04:43:07 <pikhq> If they chuck out your application with an 'F' on the transcript, then I'm screwed.
04:43:10 <Sgeo> Is SUNY Farmingdale's stuff good?
04:43:51 <Sukoshi`> Princeton is always nice if you're a science geek, and nice on the pocket book too.
04:44:04 <Sgeo> Is anyone going to answer me?
04:44:06 <Sukoshi`> And for the revolutionarily inclined there's Berkeley (or if you want to be an anarchist hobo and waste your life).
04:44:14 <Sukoshi`> Sgeo: I've never heard of Farmingdale.
04:44:26 <Sgeo> And if not, what's a good place in Long Island?
04:45:09 <Sukoshi`> Rice isn't as good as CMU, but is there. As is Urbana Champaign.
04:45:21 <pikhq> $47,375 is light on the pocket book?
04:45:35 <Sukoshi`> Princeton has one of the most hefty fees, IIRC.
04:46:00 <Sukoshi`> Berkeley is fairly light on the pocketbook, especially if you're a Californian resident.
04:46:01 <pikhq> I was about to say, 'how many millions are you worth?'
04:46:34 <Sukoshi`> Well, it's still a lot lighter than others.
04:46:52 <Sukoshi`> Especially with the prestige/skill of their CS program.
04:46:57 <Sukoshi`> Their EECS is godly, of course.
04:49:50 * pikhq will be dual-majoring in math and CS. . .
04:50:11 <Sukoshi`> I'll probably be doing an EECS with some Law somewhere.
04:50:22 <Sukoshi`> Gah. I wish the gain on my Loop Antenna wasn't so high sometimes.
04:51:02 <Sgeo> Is SUNY Farmingdale a good CIS program or not?
04:51:13 <Sukoshi`> I've never heard of Farmingdale.
04:51:23 <pikhq> Have you heard of MST?
04:52:00 <pikhq> Missouri University of Science and Technology. I'm guessing that's a 'No.'
04:52:31 <Sukoshi`> Haven't heard much though. And they tried to rabidly contact me, I think.
04:52:49 <pikhq> That's the big problem with them. . .
04:52:55 <Sukoshi`> Along with Southern Methodist University, and that horribly annoying Fordham that would not quit.
04:53:03 <pikhq> They seem to overdo the contacting thing.
04:53:06 <Sukoshi`> And a few others contacted me too.
04:53:09 <pikhq> I've gotten 5 applications from them. . .
04:53:16 <pikhq> 4 I received after I was accepted.
04:53:38 <Sukoshi`> Fordham extended their application for me 5 times, while filling out all my information, and waiving the application fee.
04:53:56 <Sukoshi`> Extended meaning extended the apply date.
04:54:04 <Sukoshi`> Ugh. I don't want to go to Fordham. So, why.
04:54:21 <pikhq> I'm quite happy with MST. . .
04:54:31 <pikhq> Although I need to get *off* their contact list. XD
04:54:35 <Sukoshi`> NYU waived the application fee too, I believe, but NYU is an arts campus.
04:54:51 <pikhq> I've had teachers suggest that I go to Tuft's. . .
04:55:30 <pikhq> A well-reputed liberal arts college, IIRC.
04:55:41 <Sukoshi`> Princeton is great in the arts, law, and sciences.
04:56:35 <pikhq> Just imagine me at a liberal arts school. . .
04:56:53 <pikhq> Granted, my long hair and beard would make me *look* like I belong. . .
04:57:07 <Sukoshi`> I am the stereotypical female science nerd.
04:57:17 <Sukoshi`> And I am bored by non-Law art, so.
04:57:18 <pikhq> But their CS department sucks horribly.
04:57:53 <pikhq> (MST's, on the other hand, is quite awesome, and has existed for 50 years, IIRC.)
04:57:57 <Sukoshi`> NYU has a fairly good science program, but, it's known to be the MIT of Arts.
04:58:50 <pikhq> Of course, if you don't like a school in the middle of nowhere, then MST is not for you. . . (why do schools of mines need to be in the middle of nowhere? :p)
04:59:05 <Sukoshi`> Meh. Colorado School of Mines contacted me also.
04:59:28 <pikhq> And CSM would actually be a sane choice for me. . .
04:59:40 <pikhq> It's about half an hour away. :p
04:59:46 <pikhq> No, a bit more than that. . .
04:59:46 <Sukoshi`> For me it was a quick chuck down the recycle bin.
05:00:06 <pikhq> But that's more of the low-level, 'If I don't get accepted anywhere else' thing.
05:00:16 <Sukoshi`> My low level is OSU, because my dad went there.
05:00:26 <pikhq> (although it's quite amusing seeing my teachers' high level of regard for that school)
05:00:39 <Sukoshi`> Washington didn't even have admission essays, meh.
05:01:03 <pikhq> Granted, it is the best school in the state. . .
05:02:11 <Sukoshi`> I think Caltech or Princeton would be ideal for me, but both are OMG-HOLY-MACKEREL schools.
05:02:37 <pikhq> That's where I put MIT at. . .
05:02:42 <Sukoshi`> Caltech has a dash of Pol. Sci, and Princeton's law is of course excellent.
05:02:46 <pikhq> And I could *not* get into MIT.
05:02:58 <Sukoshi`> I might get into Caltech or Princeton.
05:03:04 <pikhq> (they'd throw away my application after seeing my transcript, guaranteed.)
05:03:20 <Sukoshi`> I actually got an interview from a school in that tier whose name I will not share for luck reasons.
05:03:25 <Sukoshi`> So I'm in the running, I think.
05:03:51 <pikhq> Best of luck to you.
05:04:18 <Sukoshi`> Only if some guy got a shot of unintended Extasy (? the drug ?) would I get in.
05:04:37 <Sukoshi`> Stanford was my ZETTAI-UNATTAINABLE.
05:05:25 <Sukoshi`> So, what've you been up to pikhq ?
05:06:43 <Sukoshi`> My life involved 7 months of studying for one exam, and now it involves running an anime convention committee, self-studying Linear Algebra/Multivariable Calculus, some light hacking, politics, and languages among other things. I'm also trying to get into some video games, but am realizing what 5 years of video game disuse does.
05:07:37 <pikhq> Studying Japanese, studying calculus, and some light hacking.
05:07:53 <pikhq> And I forgot to mention a new-found devotion to the game of Nomic.
05:08:08 <Sukoshi`> Nomic, I started a game with some friends over that.
05:08:10 <pikhq> You familiar with it?
05:08:31 <pikhq> I'm a player in Agora, which is the longest-running Nomic in existence.
05:09:14 <Sukoshi`> Oh and also, I'm planning a Senior prank which involves infiltration of the school gradebook and school website. (Some local public school in the area chock full of high-income students got the title "academic powerhouse" after they attempted to crack the school website for finals answers. I resent that just because we have a low income, we are discriminated against.)
05:09:16 <pikhq> The 15th Agoran birthday is this June.
05:09:39 <Sukoshi`> The gradebook is already infiltrated. The website is in the works, and I'm in the process of doing some infiltration into the school network.
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05:10:19 <pikhq> You going to become a regular again if/when your life settles down a bit more?
05:10:26 <Sukoshi`> Doesen't help that they have completely publicized a Cisco router.
05:10:46 <Sukoshi`> Of course, the gradebook is a private thing.
05:10:53 <pikhq> And they've got telnet access open to the world, I bet.
05:11:03 <Sukoshi`> But some creative cracking and some insider information got me in there.
05:11:11 <Sukoshi`> Nope. But they will have an nc backdoor soon :)
05:11:22 <Sukoshi`> Maybe I'll even run nc with telnet services :D
05:11:59 <Sukoshi`> The Cisco router is publicized locally rather. Sorry.
05:12:24 <Sukoshi`> Not an external publication. However, I'm thinking of proxying that out. This involves getting admin access to the machine which involves grabbing hashes.
05:12:38 <Sukoshi`> I've already done the social engineering needed to grab the hashes. The rest is time and circumspection.
05:12:58 <pikhq> Sounds like a poorly planned network.
05:13:13 <pikhq> My school's network would probably be trivial to shut down. . .
05:13:31 <pikhq> The damned thing has 10MB/s links all over the place.
05:13:32 <Sukoshi`> But actual content manipulation takes some skill.
05:13:48 <pikhq> A DOS would probably leave them down for ages.
05:13:50 <Sukoshi`> No public Wi-Fi anymore, so the limit is working with the bloody school mahines.
05:14:22 <pikhq> Ethernet ports are not hard to find.
05:14:32 <pikhq> They just kinda set the switches right next to the computers. . .
05:14:39 <Sukoshi`> Well, the librarians are right there.
05:14:59 <Sukoshi`> And I have no machine save this 8 year old desktop clunker with a 10-11 year old video card.
05:15:20 <pikhq> In the classrooms. . .
05:15:28 <pikhq> With teachers who don't pay attention. . .
05:16:47 <pikhq> Of course, I know a computer lab with the computers mismanaged. . .
05:16:56 <pikhq> Insert Knoppix and go.
05:17:03 <Sukoshi`> Plus school authorities/police prowl the outside. We're a low income school with the gang bit and all.
05:18:22 <Sukoshi`> I'm happy to report, we've had only 1 fatality :)
05:19:21 <Sukoshi`> I never knew the guy and I was a Freshman at the time, so.
05:20:47 <pikhq> The only fatalities at my school that I know of involved an apartment building burning down. . .
05:21:02 <Sukoshi`> We had a school building burn down too, but that was before my time.
05:21:05 <pikhq> Sucks, but not quite gang warfare.
05:21:40 <Sukoshi`> And since the school lies on the San Andreas fault-line (yay cheap land!) it got split in half during the '89 Earthquake.
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05:23:04 <Sukoshi`> Well other stuff have happened, but there's no point getting into it. It's just a consequence of being poor and living in a country ruled by free market hawkers.
05:24:19 <pikhq> Well, yeah, this country kinda sucks in that regard.
05:25:23 <Sukoshi`> I agree with Guiliani. Let's get rid of all the taxes we can.
05:25:43 <Sukoshi`> I mean, isn't what makes America great its independent spirit and non-government reliance? *rolls eyes*
05:26:31 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I've missed important parts of this conversation
05:28:30 <pikhq> In other news, I just got a first post on /.
05:30:52 <Sukoshi`> Since today's the first day of vacation, I have some off time, even though I've been putting off some council stuff.
05:33:08 <RodgerTheGreat> my last few months have been pretty busy, too- I've been making a lot of things.
05:33:33 <pikhq> I'm looking forward to this summer. . .
05:33:37 <pikhq> Ought to be less busy.
05:33:46 <Sukoshi`> I am too. I get to also join a Diff. Eqs. class :)
05:33:55 <Sukoshi`> Then I'll have all the math I need to start college with an EMW class.
05:34:04 <pikhq> At the very least, I won't end up getting homework from my system administration job. :p
05:34:21 <Sukoshi`> Also I plan to fan-translate a Japanese novel.
05:35:15 <Sukoshi`> I also have some $200 and am planning either to get a radio scanner or get into some Ham Radio.
05:35:52 <pikhq> I'll be up in Boston this summer. :)
05:35:55 <Sukoshi`> Or I may get an old PS2 and try to get back into the video games thing which I'm faleing at now.
05:35:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I finally finished that pokemon clone I was working on a while back: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/CRPG
05:36:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm working on cleaning it up a little and putting together an SDK
05:36:15 <pikhq> And my first job will actually be relevant to my career. Imagine that. ;p
05:36:29 <Sukoshi`> I intend to get some Japanese translation job.
05:36:35 <Sukoshi`> Sysadminning is fairly boring to me.
05:38:13 <RodgerTheGreat> look no further than pmhaddad, who now has no free time and is completely consumed by his $10-an-hour job.
05:38:36 <pikhq> This summer, I'll be making more than pmhaddad. XD
05:38:36 <RodgerTheGreat> 'Course, in a summer job you won't be compromising between work and school, which is what's really retarded about his situation
05:38:58 <pikhq> The job will be $15-an-hour.
05:39:06 <Sukoshi`> Whereas a translation job will probably be $12/hr, will consume not as much free time, and will be intellectually stimulating assuming you completely ignore the subject matter.
05:39:25 <Sukoshi`> I intend the translation job to go on while schooling.
05:39:42 <RodgerTheGreat> sounds like a fun way of making some cash with a hobby
05:39:54 <pikhq> I'd say that $15-an-hour for your first job is not exactly a bad deal, though.
05:40:16 <RodgerTheGreat> right now I'm working as a grader for "Object Oriented Design" at MTU, and I recently started doing undergrad research
05:40:19 <pikhq> Better than starting at $FASTFOOD at minimum wage.
05:40:38 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: yeah, my first job was $5.15, minimum wage at the time
05:40:52 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: That's still nation-wide minimum wage.
05:41:00 <pikhq> A few states set it higher.
05:41:02 <Sukoshi`> California's minimum wage is a good bit higher, but.
05:41:12 <pikhq> Colorado's is more like $6.50 now.
05:41:24 <pikhq> And only has been for a year or so. . .
05:41:29 <Sukoshi`> Translation is a skilled job. At a bare JLPT 1 mastery, not very skilled, but skilled enough to be decent.
05:41:41 <Sukoshi`> You're looking at ~$8.50 here.
05:41:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I make $7.50 per hour grading, and $8.00 doing research
05:43:07 <Sukoshi`> I've also been doing some cooking.
05:43:20 <Sukoshi`> Just in case my life ends in a horrible climax and I become a housewife (joke).
05:44:21 <Sukoshi`> Time to fidget with my too-high-gain loop antenna and hope to get a clear signal for the public TV station.
05:44:36 <RodgerTheGreat> I've been doing more comic art related stuff. Check out a short story I made a few weeks ago: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/images/Good/
05:44:59 <Sukoshi`> I occasionally have enough time to get good political/economic coverage from it.
05:45:00 <pikhq> That time can be better spent reading.
05:45:24 <Sukoshi`> And of course, the history specials on PBS are always fun.
05:45:43 <Sukoshi`> And then there's local news, which I eat dinner to...
05:46:01 <RodgerTheGreat> Mythbusters is still pretty awesome, when I get a chance to catch an episode
05:46:03 <Sukoshi`> If I'm fidgeting with an antenna, what sort of TV do you expect me to get? :D
05:46:05 <pikhq> I actually read when I eat. XD
05:46:46 <Sukoshi`> In the morning it's almost crystal clear, at night it's not as nice, but still clearer than a dipole ... if you can handle the high gain.
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06:28:09 <RodgerTheGreat> Sukoshi`: so, did you take a look at "define your good"?
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07:02:32 <es0n00b> !glass {M[m(_s)S!(_o)0O!o.<34>(_s)(ns).?"{M[m(_s)S!(_o)0O!o.<34>(_s)(ns).?""14?24?14?24?24?04?24?04?]}"14?24?14?24?24?04?24?04?]}
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10:29:20 <oklopol> Sukoshi`: weebees to you, milady
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16:17:45 * Slereah has "American mathematical society translations : series 2, volume 29" :D
16:18:12 <Slereah> "On the definition of an algorithm", by A.N. Kolmogorov and V.A. Uspenskii
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18:52:51 <RodgerTheGreat> faster and lighter weight, but some transcription errors and packet loss
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19:01:49 <ehird`> RodgerTheGreaWE)(Uยฃ$I!!ยฌ+_PACKET ERROR
19:03:10 <ehird`> pikhq: http://pastebin.ca/905230 what i wish tcl looked like
19:03:19 <ehird`> as an addition to that:
19:03:36 <ehird`> fn K {x} {fn {y} {return $x}} <-- would work
19:03:45 <ehird`> why can be seen trivially if you take a look
19:04:12 <ehird`> some of the examples are stupid
19:04:22 <pikhq> Fuck the 'call' part.
19:04:39 <pikhq> [fn {x {+ $x 1}}] 2
19:04:50 <ehird`> http://pastebin.ca/906473 update
19:05:07 <ehird`> pikhq: Well, everything's a string, so wouldn't that make it try and call the command of some weird string?
19:05:13 <ehird`> And wouldn't that require special handling of some stuff?
19:05:19 <pikhq> The return value of fn.
19:05:41 <ehird`> 'fn' could return the {{args} ...} syntax when used as a string,
19:05:47 <ehird`> but as a function -- ..
19:05:49 <pikhq> If you have first-class functions in Tcl, then functions would need to have a string representation.
19:06:04 <ehird`> pikhq: i just said -- they do
19:06:11 <ehird`> that doesn't account for lexical scope, though.
19:06:27 <pikhq> Why should it? Variables have scope, not values. ;)
19:06:35 <ehird`> http://pastebin.ca/906475 <-- doubly-updated
19:06:54 <ehird`> pikhq: because the idea is that the cacheing of otherly-typed values is just an interpreter feature, no?
19:07:09 <ehird`> http://pastebin.ca/906475 NEEDS to be interpreted -- and fat ;)
19:07:36 <pikhq> Which is how Tcl rolls. ;p
19:07:42 <ehird`> especially the shell style $num... for one thing, it means that the toplevel can have then as program arguments, fitting in well.. and as another, short functions generally can make use of them well
19:08:04 <pikhq> I don't much like the $0 and such, though.
19:08:18 <pikhq> But that's not a huge deal. . .
19:08:27 <pikhq> The revolutionary bit is the first-class functions. ;)
19:08:52 <ehird`> 1. it fits in with trivial CLI arg handling
19:08:56 <ehird`> 2. it's very useful for short functions
19:09:29 <pikhq> We already have trivial CLI arg handling. List of args. Big woop.
19:09:36 <ehird`> can you really argue the second is clearer in intent, if you know the $num syntax -- which can be explained in one sentence: "$n is the function's argument n."
19:09:42 <ehird`> pikhq: Stil, it's clearner.
19:09:51 <ehird`> It lets you imagine prog = function, basically.
19:10:02 <ehird`> Which, since shells follow that model, especially with user defined functions, is a correct one.
19:10:15 <ehird`> It's just 'another reason' for the sugar, with the other being as above
19:11:02 <pikhq> Every Tcl script is, in that since, just a function that takes args.
19:11:13 <pikhq> (args is how Tcl does variadic functions)
19:11:53 <ehird`> But you see my point, surely?
19:11:53 <ehird`> Expanding dbl into triple:
19:11:53 <ehird`> fn triple {+ $0 $0 $0}
19:11:55 <ehird`> fn triple {x} {+ $x $x $x}
19:12:29 <ehird`> 'Function triple, add first, first, first.'
19:12:29 <ehird`> 'Function triple, taking x, add x, x, x.'
19:13:38 <pikhq> Don't much like it, but even then, that's a simple change to Tcl, and if I don't like it, I don't have to use it.
19:13:58 <ehird`> pikhq: Now I come up with the idea "hey, an implementation couldn't be too hard! i mean, there's a simple Tcl in 500 lines..." and nothing ever actually happens.
19:14:40 <pikhq> Implement your ideas, submit it as a TIP for Tcl 9.
19:15:03 <ehird`> pikhq: But that's no fun
19:15:09 <ehird`> It's far more fun to write a new and revolutionary interpreter.
19:15:30 <ehird`> Hey, I could make Tk not ugly as all hell by default! Maybe even use native widgets on Win32&OS X. :P
19:16:58 <ehird`> Sorry, I know this for a fact :P
19:17:01 <pikhq> It does last time I tried it.
19:17:11 <ehird`> It looks like it does.
19:17:18 <ehird`> But the text widgets, for example, are most certainly not native
19:17:29 <pikhq> I know for *sure* that they did that in Tcl 8.5.
19:17:48 <ehird`> well, they did it suckily
19:18:06 <pikhq> What's needed is native widgets for X11 archs.
19:18:28 <ehird`> pikhq: Define 'native'.
19:18:40 <pikhq> Qt and GTK+, in addition to the current implementation.
19:18:42 <ehird`> Gtk? Some people use KDE. They want Qt. Oh, some people don't like either -- they want Motif, for chrissakes!
19:18:56 <ehird`> pikhq: I think something that looks passably good would be ok.
19:18:58 <pikhq> Tk right now imitates Motif.
19:19:04 <ehird`> As long as it's stylable you should be alright.
19:19:17 <ehird`> If i'm going to write my own implementation,
19:19:22 <pikhq> Well, if *that's* all you care about, Tcl 8.5 made Tk stylable.
19:19:24 <ehird`> I'll probably use wxWidgets as the backend.
19:19:35 <ehird`> wx is pretty good on all platforms.
19:19:51 <ehird`> Well, with OS X you have to do a few little tweaks to make its pinstripes slightly less fugly than they are by default..
19:20:11 <ehird`> pikhq: Qt would be terrible.
19:20:29 <ehird`> It would mean nobody could develop a Tk app using the Qt backend commercially without paying Trolltech crazy amounts of money.
19:20:52 <pikhq> But the only person that would complain would be Larry McVoy.
19:21:01 <ehird`> pikhq: I would sure complain.
19:21:05 <ehird`> It's the reason I don't use Qt. :(
19:21:13 <ehird`> Which is a shame -- Qt as an actual toolkit is *superb*
19:21:15 <pikhq> For your free software?
19:21:39 <ehird`> Same reason I don't use readline..
19:21:44 <pikhq> (keep in mind that you *can* sell free software. . .)
19:22:01 <pikhq> Out of immense curiosity, what crack are you smoking? :p
19:22:17 <ehird`> (If they want a GPL-alike, the LGPL is there for a REASON)
19:22:56 <pikhq> readline is GPL at the behest of RMS.
19:23:11 <pikhq> (the idea being to only reward free software with a library which, at the time, was unique)
19:23:29 <ehird`> pikhq: Yes, well RMS is crazy anyway.
19:23:49 <pikhq> Then why do you use his licenses?
19:24:19 <pikhq> Your CTCP version begs to differ.
19:24:34 <ehird`> pikhq: Sure, I only use X-Chat when I'm on Linux..
19:24:42 <pikhq> In fact, you are right now benefitting from 20 years of his work.
19:24:58 <ehird`> let's just forget about all the other people who did more work while he sat around yelilng
19:25:28 <RodgerTheGreat> haha- jesus christ: http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=4766
19:25:43 <ehird`> it is unfortunate that a lot of software is GPL, indeed, but if the software itself is good I am willing to use it.
19:25:43 <pikhq> I hope you won't mind uninstalling glibc?
19:26:01 <ehird`> However, libraries under the GPL without a linking exception (glibc has one of these, so stfu) are unacceptable.
19:26:08 <pikhq> Or everything else written by the GNU project?
19:26:21 <ehird`> pikhq: You do know that the GNU project != RMS?
19:26:30 <ehird`> I venture RMS's code makes a *very small part* of glibc today.
19:26:43 <pikhq> True enough; it's currently maintained by Red Hat.
19:27:06 <pikhq> Of course, if you like *Emacs*, you're going to be using his code fairly constantly.
19:27:11 <pikhq> (he is the Emacs maintainer)
19:27:23 <ehird`> exactly, he's head of it but does very little actual coding... (In case you accuse me of copying esr: he's even more of an idiot, and should take his own advice. And hopefully blow his own foot off... he does use C, there is a chance...)
19:27:40 <ehird`> pikhq: I like Emacs because I code Haskell and haskell-mode.el is the only real solution.
19:27:57 <ehird`> That's.. pretty much it. Also, because i have used it for a while I have some of the keycombos in muscle memory.
19:28:26 <ehird`> -- and rms sure didn't write haskell-mode
19:28:27 <pikhq> So, you're willing to call the man fucking crazy, yet benefit from his labors.
19:28:58 <pikhq> Nope. He just wrote the language haskell-mode is in.
19:29:38 <ehird`> pikhq: elisp is pretty shitty.
19:29:49 <ehird`> I'm sure he's crying of the hurt.
19:30:08 <pikhq> True. He *did* write it with the assumption that it would be running on systems too small to handle a full, decent lisp.
19:30:09 <ehird`> Anyway, it's just a matter of me not having written good haskell support for a decently licensed editor, yet.
19:30:20 <ehird`> pikhq: Because lexical scoping would kill them, with fire.
19:30:33 <pikhq> (it was designed with things like the 386 in mind)
19:30:56 <pikhq> Actually, less than the 386. . .
19:33:34 <ehird`> im pretty sure the 386 could handle a lexically scoped lisp
19:33:34 <ehird`> i'm pretty sure something even simpler could too
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19:33:44 <ehird`> doesn't help your argument much.
19:33:50 <ehird`> Scheme was out in the 70s
19:33:52 <ehird`> lisps before that had lexscoping, of course..
19:34:45 <ehird`> pikhq: Heck, LISP 1.5 had it.
19:34:56 <ehird`> Apparently FUNARG is complex and scary and could never work on any machine ever.
19:35:12 <Sgeo> Hi, anyone going to touch the Internet-aware BF program?
19:35:24 <ehird`> Sgeo: Not without a 10-foot pole
19:35:56 <Sgeo> \x00\x02\x03\x03pole\n
19:36:13 <Sgeo> \x00\x03\x00\n\n
19:37:01 <ehird`> Brainfuck with balanced <>s is concatenative
19:37:12 <Sgeo> "concatenative"?
19:38:34 <ehird`> Sgeo: ... Go read up on programming languages will you? ...
19:38:41 <ehird`> I'm scared of what PSOX will look like otherwise :P
19:38:49 <Sgeo> "will look like"?
19:40:24 <Sgeo> The core PSOX spec is basically complete
19:42:04 <oklopol> knowing what concatenativity is isn't really that crucial
19:43:48 <Sgeo> Also, PSOX isn't a programming language
19:47:56 <ehird`> it's just not turing complete
19:48:09 <ehird`> in which case it is still a programmin language
19:48:29 <Sgeo> How is it a programming language?
19:49:20 <ehird`> because there is an interpreter for it
19:49:29 <ehird`> and it performs actions like user input, output, etc
19:56:27 <oklopol> i think it's a matter of opinion
19:57:15 <oklopol> ummm.. actually, i don't think it is a programming language
19:57:52 <ehird`> oklopol: msot everything is a programming language
19:58:10 <ehird`> who wants to help me write a program that will do something intuitive when given http://pastebin.ca/906475? pikhq? :P
20:09:20 <Sgeo> pikhq, pleasewakeupnow
20:09:32 <Sgeo> [pikhq] idle 00:38:25, signon: Fri Feb 15 22:18:56
20:09:56 <Sgeo> RodgerTheGreat, ehird`, are you going to examine the Internet-enabled BF program?
20:11:05 <Sgeo> RodgerTheGreat?
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20:19:49 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.
20:21:47 <ehird`> pikhq: pikhq: pikhq: ... eh. > cycle "pikhq: "
20:27:46 <pikhq> ehird`: PSOX isn't a programming language, it's an API.
20:28:00 <ehird`> pikhq: It is basically a language though.
20:28:08 <ehird`> pikhq: ANYWAY HELP ME WRITE INTERPRETER FOR AWESOMETHINGTHATLOOKSKINDOFLIKETCL
20:28:54 <pikhq> The Tcl maintainers may be more helpful than I am.
20:29:25 <ehird`> Bah. Tcl maintainers. A newwww interpreter must exist!
20:29:27 <Sgeo> pikhq, are you going to examine/play with that BF program?
20:29:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: Me need shower and cleaning.
20:29:58 <pikhq> But yes, later today.
20:47:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: So, online.b. . .
20:47:24 <pikhq> Is it basically netcat?
20:47:43 <Sgeo> Um, you're assuming I know what netcat is
20:47:59 <pikhq> And if so, how do you specify the port it's on?
20:48:15 <Sgeo> Well, not netcat
20:48:30 <pikhq> Fine. What port does it connect on?
20:48:32 <Sgeo> You put in a URL and it will print out whatever's at that URL
20:50:25 <Sgeo> Well, wget saves to disk, this just sends to stdout
20:50:33 <Sgeo> Trying it yourself?
20:51:19 <pikhq> Might I suggest sometime doing a bit of a more raw TCP interface?
20:51:40 <Sgeo> That could be a custom domain
20:52:05 <pikhq> I think it should be builtin.
20:52:18 <pikhq> Just like db_fileio.
20:52:46 <pikhq> Perhaps a "networking" domain?
20:53:08 <Sgeo> I think the other domains need to be worked on first
20:53:22 <Sgeo> Also, maybe I should limit the http domain to URLs beginning with http://
21:00:57 <pikhq> So, HTTP::get will create a new fd. . .
21:01:04 <pikhq> What number would that be assigned?
21:01:44 <Sgeo> The lowest available FD number
21:01:57 <Sgeo> That's always what new FDs are assigned
21:02:06 <Sgeo> FDs 0, 1, 2, and 3 are already taken
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21:04:07 <Sgeo> 0 is the current outfile FD, 1 is the current infile FD, 2 is stdout, 3 is stdin
21:06:48 <Sgeo> pikhq, make sense?
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21:14:01 <ihope> It would be interesting to try to build a neurode out of electronic things.
21:20:49 <ihope> You might have a ground input, a voltage input, some input inputs, an output, and a feedback thingy.
21:21:33 <ihope> The feedback would be at the same voltage as the output, but putting current in and out of it would change what the output's "supposed to be".
21:31:55 <pikhq> I've got myself a much fancier wget script.
21:32:07 <pikhq> It pulls from the command line and won't break on outputting null.
21:35:03 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/wget.b
21:36:12 <pikhq> BTW, a suggested change for PSOX.py. . .
21:36:27 <pikhq> Make it start with #!/usr/bin/python, and chmod +x.
21:36:40 <pikhq> Then, it's just ./PSOX.py egobfi8 foo.b
21:36:59 <pikhq> And that would let me install PSOX somewhere, and have my code start with a shebang. . .
21:37:02 <pikhq> And magically work.
21:43:38 <ihope> Not /usr/bin/env python?
21:43:49 <pikhq> Sgeo: thoughts on my very first PSOX script?
21:44:04 <ihope> Or `which python`. :-P
21:50:19 <pikhq> Next up: the Brainfuck Audio suite.
21:50:52 <pikhq> Actually, it'd be really nice if the command line handling was nicer than just -c "foo". . .
21:51:18 * Sgeo downloaded and tried the wget.b
21:51:19 <pikhq> So I could do ./PSOX.py egobfi8 bfaudio.b -i raw_audio -o foo.bf
21:51:22 <Sgeo> coolness pikhq
21:51:47 <Sgeo> pikhq, not sure how that would work
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21:53:09 <Sgeo> For some reason though, the first time I tried wget.b, it didn't work
21:53:30 <Sgeo> wget.b is the first PSOX program made by someone other than me :D
21:55:12 <pikhq> Did you neglect to give it -c?
21:55:32 <Sgeo> I don't think so
21:55:38 <Sgeo> ehird`, pikhq did
21:55:51 <ehird`> he questioned about it before
21:55:54 <Sgeo> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/wget.b
21:56:00 <pikhq> online.b is what Sgeo made.
21:56:17 <pikhq> I rewrote it to be better.
21:56:41 <pikhq> It takes the file to get from the command line, and its output routine works with NULLs.
21:56:45 <ehird`> psox is soooo pointless and ugly
21:56:52 <ehird`> brainfuck has been DONE TO DEATH alread
21:57:04 <Sgeo> ehird`, PSOX works with more than just BF
21:57:28 <pikhq> PSOX works with anything that does I/O.
21:57:37 <pikhq> You could, technically, do Malbolge with it.
21:57:57 <pikhq> You could *trivially* do shell with it. . . Or C. . .
21:58:11 <pikhq> Which remind me: I need to get my C-using PSOX library written this weekend. :p
21:58:40 <ehird`> Sgeo: nice argument too bad you always say 'Oh it's designed for BF!'
21:58:51 <ehird`> and it'll be crap with anything else
21:59:06 <pikhq> It's designed for most any esolang.
21:59:20 <pikhq> Although the math domain won't be as useful in some, like Glass.
22:00:31 <ehird`> pikhq: Wrong! Sgeo has claimed many times that he only thinks of BF.
22:00:37 <ehird`> Besides, there's no POINT for something like this...
22:00:45 <ehird`> Esolangs aren't any better because they can make a webserver.
22:01:19 <Sgeo> ehird`, I mostly think about BF, but that doesn't mean it's exclusively for BF
22:02:01 <Sgeo> ehird`, is there a point for any esolang?
22:02:34 * Sgeo wonders if maybe ehird` is bitter about the lack of TDATA (the "ANY" type)
22:03:41 <oklopol> Sgeo: that's most likely it :D
22:04:24 <Sgeo> TDATA was basically ehird`'s idea, and I liked it until it proved to be incompatible with decision to make PSOX types regex-based
22:04:53 <Sgeo> *with the decision
22:05:58 <oklopol> all i know is candy is the sine of a crayon
22:06:21 <Sgeo> ehird` pinged out in Sine
22:06:35 <Sgeo> (Sine is a network we're both on. I brought him over, actually)
22:07:21 <Sgeo> You know about Sine?
22:07:35 <Sgeo> msg me the server and port
22:08:14 <oklopol> i know everything about it i've heard in here.
22:08:32 <oklopol> that was a weird sentence, but it's most definitely true
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22:12:30 -!- ehird` has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:13:05 <pikhq> But seriously, though: TCP domain.
22:13:32 <pikhq> 0x00 TCP CONNECT address port \n
22:13:58 <pikhq> And 0x00 TCP LISTEN port \n
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22:24:14 <ehird`_> pikhq: You won't help me write awesometclthing
22:24:32 <ehird`_> personally, implementing continuations would scare me
22:27:03 <ehird`_> pikhq: btw - i really like tcl's lists
22:27:09 <ehird`_> "a b c" is a list of a, b, c right?
22:27:53 <pikhq> Equivalent to [list a [list b c] d]
22:28:26 <ehird`_> pikhq: The "list ..." translates into the string not the other way around
22:31:07 <ehird`_> pikhq: Linked list, or array?
22:32:10 <pikhq> I don't know, actually.
22:32:40 <pikhq> Since I don't know of Tcl doing some of the fancier things a linked list lets you do, it could well be just an array.
22:33:15 <ehird`_> pikhq: Now help me implement awesomeclosureandlovetcl! :(
22:38:27 <ehird`_> Random tcl wiki person: "Also - it somehow strikes me again and again this whole concept is about reintroducing the evil goto statement, but kind of neat and nifty so noone would recognise. But this could be because I still might haven't grokked it yet..."
22:39:46 <pikhq> Continuations are not like goto.
22:40:14 <pikhq> Although one could argue that the infamous long_jmp is *like* a continuation. . .
22:41:11 <Sgeo> What's a long_jmp?
22:42:13 <pikhq> C's continuation-like thing.
22:42:43 <pikhq> Lets you jump across functions.
22:43:31 <ehird`_> pikhq: setjmp jusrt saves stack length
22:43:47 <ehird`_> if the stack goes down beyond setjmp --- nuh uh
22:44:11 <pikhq> ehird`_: It's not *perfectly* like continuations. . .
22:44:28 <pikhq> Among other things, it's a hell of a lot rougher and less, well, formal.
22:44:38 <pikhq> 'Lets just dick with the stack a bit. Yay!'
22:47:26 <ehird`_> pikhq: setjmp is equivalent to exceptions
22:47:37 <ehird`_> and exceptions are as related to continuations as to goto
22:48:11 <ehird`_> pikhq: btw -- i just realised that if we add closures etc to tcl, refcounting is not enough
22:48:21 <ehird`_> refcount + infrequently run gc
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22:54:57 <ehird`_> pikhq: And also, anonymous 'fn's shouldn't return a random name (Jim does this) -- they should have no name
22:56:08 <ehird`_> pikhq: And the first thing written should be the parser. Agreed x50? :P
22:56:44 <Sgeo> ehird`_, is that a jab at me?
22:57:18 <Sgeo> At me writing PSOX specs first instead of immediately working on the interpreter
22:57:27 <ehird`_> And, the only thing the parser should do is the obvious token seperation, and making sure ", {, [ are balanced. Then, {...} should be converted to "...".
22:57:32 <ehird`_> Finally, it's seperated like this:
22:57:40 <ehird`_> foo {bar $xyz[abc]}"def" ->
22:57:45 <pikhq> ehird`_: Well, of course.
22:57:53 <ehird`_> foo, "bar $xyz[abc]", "def"
22:57:54 <pikhq> Tcl is fairly trivial to parse. ;)
22:58:01 <ehird`_> foo {bar $xyz[abc]{def}}"def" ->
22:58:04 <ehird`_> foo, "bar $xyz[abc]{def}", "def"
22:58:12 <pikhq> In Tcl proper, that's a syntax error.
22:58:42 <ehird`_> pikhq: i'm insure what that should be:
22:58:57 <ehird`_> 2. is shell, 3. is proglang, 1. is tcl :)
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23:02:08 <ehird`_> None, apparently. pikhq is a zombie.
23:03:11 <Corun> Hence why he's a zombie.
23:03:11 <ehird`_> pikhq: So -- no preference?
23:11:19 <oerjan> faxathisia: missing = after otherwise
23:11:34 * oerjan throws a dagger after Mr. Wong
23:17:49 <ehird`_> pikhq: Now you are forced to name the interp. :P
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23:26:05 <ehird`_> pikhq: pikhq pikhq pikhq pikhq :D
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23:35:09 <ehird`_> http://swtch.com/42bsd-finger.c.txt can this really be what inspired the IOCCC? I mean, it's not NICE code, loads of magic constants and stuff, but ...
23:35:21 <oerjan> impossible. he is not saying "BRAINS. BRAINS."
23:36:46 <oerjan> i thought the IOCCC was inspired by cpp definitions making C look like ALGOL or something
23:37:30 * Sgeo sort of has a question regarding the future of PSOX
23:38:24 <Sgeo> ehird`_, maybe you can help? >.>
23:38:31 <ehird`_> oerjan: thats one of the inspirations
23:38:33 <Sgeo> Should I make the math functions just accept LNUMs?
23:38:41 <ehird`_> Sgeo: You should drop PSOX.
23:38:46 <ehird`_> (morale: don't ask my opinion)
23:39:01 <Sgeo> ehird`_, you did have an influence on PSOX
23:39:13 <oerjan> oh. "Larry had been trying to fix a bug in the classic Bourne shell (C code #defined to death to sort of look like Algol) and I had been working on the finger program from early BSD (a bug ridden finger implementation to be sure)."
23:39:22 <Sgeo> LBYTES are called LBYTES not LSTRING
23:39:38 <Sgeo> Same with FBYTES
23:39:51 <pikhq> LNUMs are just too complex for some cases.
23:40:16 <Sgeo> pikhq, you mean single bytes?
23:40:20 <ehird`_> Sgeo: Do you have proper unistrings yet?..
23:40:47 <ehird`_> Then, you can just replace all L/FBYTES with L/FSTRING, if you just hardcode english text in bf
23:40:59 <ehird`_> and still use L/FBYTES for, well, bytes
23:41:19 <Sgeo> pikhq, as far as I can tell, using LNUMs in that case would just be a bit of overhead
23:41:39 <ehird`_> pikhq: Any ideas for a name?
23:41:41 <Sgeo> It's either that, or make a function that switches the type that functions accept (difficult), or make repetitive functions (ugly)
23:42:01 <pikhq> Sgeo: Repetitive functions would not be that ugly as far as I'm concerned.
23:42:27 <Sgeo> And do you think I need a VARG(LNUM) version of each math function?
23:43:16 <Sgeo> (well, not subtraction or division obviously)
23:44:19 <ehird`_> Sgeo: Subtraction or division not varity? Why not?
23:45:07 <Sgeo> I suppose I can include VARG() subtraction and division for consistancy
23:45:59 <Sgeo> ehird`_, have you been studying the architecture of PSOX?
23:46:05 <ehird`_> faxathisia: Chicken scheme.
23:46:09 <ehird`_> Sgeo: No, it probably sucks.
23:46:20 <Sgeo> If not, how are you in a position to comment how easy/difficult it would be to make a switcher function?
23:46:42 <ehird`_> Sgeo: I was saying it hopefully, which would be correct if PSOX's architechture is sane.
23:46:58 <ehird`_> However, if you say it's difficult, that either means 'I don't know how to do it' or 'The architechture sucks so much that it's difficult'
23:47:14 <Sgeo> I think a minor architecture change would make it feasible
23:47:48 <ehird`_> faxathisia: Will YOU name my tcl-alike? :P
23:49:01 <ehird`_> I think pikhq might be the best choice here. :P
23:50:24 <Sgeo> ehird`_, I believe you once said something about making a Haskell version of PSOX?
23:50:57 <pikhq> The Power-Tool Language.
23:51:10 <pikhq> (after Tool-command language, and Tool-Kit, it's only fair. :p)
23:51:13 <ehird`_> pikhq: ptl -- pronounced 'pittle'. I like that, spelled a bit awkwardly, though.
23:51:50 <ehird`_> pikhq: I think the parser can be one file long. :P
23:52:10 <pikhq> Tcl's syntax *is* trivial.
23:52:35 <ehird`_> Most of it is done by eval, anyway :P
23:52:50 <ehird`_> pikhq: e.g. the only thing you do with [...] is make sure it doesn't split a token
23:53:10 <pikhq> Now, the {*} rule is probably the only tricky part.
23:53:16 <pikhq> One token into several.
23:53:50 <ehird`_> pikhq: I think with closures etc. {*} is unneeded
23:54:08 <faxathisia> Why do I have irrational dislike of TCL?
23:54:13 <Sgeo> What's the difference between ptl and tcl?
23:54:18 <ehird`_> faxathisia: Not sure. pikhq has made it sound quite nice.
23:54:27 <ehird`_> Good regexp support, the data type stuff actually seems useful..
23:54:38 <faxathisia> I saw some code that adds lambda to it.. that's kind of cool
23:54:38 <ehird`_> Not as elegant as a pure lisp maybe, but sounds nice... ptl - better!
23:54:55 <ehird`_> Sgeo: ptl has closures, real GC, lexical scoping, ...
23:55:03 <ehird`_> oh, and everything's first class (hopefully)
23:55:18 <ehird`_> pikhq: so I believe I can drop {*}. Correct?
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23:55:41 * Sgeo wonders if pikhq is opposed to any [eso]projects
23:55:48 <pikhq> ehird`_: I'm not sure if {*} is handled by closures.
23:56:00 <Sgeo> pikhq doesn't hate PSOX or ptl
23:56:02 <ehird`_> pikhq: i am admittedly quite fuzzy on what {*} actually does
23:56:08 <pikhq> How would you handle "+ {*}$list"?
23:56:10 <ehird`_> Sgeo: ptl is an esoproject since... when?
23:56:18 <ehird`_> pikhq: Ah, that's "+ with-args-of-$list"?
23:56:23 <ehird`_> And, does it only handle lists?
23:56:26 <Sgeo> ehird`_, since it began being discussed in #esoteric ?
23:56:29 <ehird`_> If so, then a *simple* version is:
23:56:37 <ehird`_> And I might add some kind of sugar ...
23:56:39 <pikhq> eval + $list, actually.
23:56:45 <pikhq> And {*} *is* the sugar.
23:56:58 <ehird`_> pikhq: Yes, but is the sugar used often enough for it to be worthwhile?
23:57:05 <ehird`_> Maybe in Tcl when emulating features that ptl will already have?
23:57:08 <pikhq> Yes; that's why it was added in Tcl 8.5
23:58:03 <pikhq> {*} expands a token into many tokens.
23:58:24 <ehird`_> pikhq: eval does it, though, right?
23:58:28 <ehird`_> Otherwise, $list wouldn't work.
23:58:40 <ehird`_> pikhq: Well, does any expansion take place?
23:59:01 <ehird`_> or is it just evaluated directly?
23:59:17 <pikhq> + 1 {*}$list 3 -> + 1 10 11 12 13 3
23:59:48 <Sgeo> pikhq, should I attempt to make a switching function, or are redundant functions ok?
23:59:51 <pikhq> http://wiki.tcl.tk/17158
23:59:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: Redundant functions.