00:00:15 there is some strange unicode i cannot read on that proto-indoeuropean in http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/facio#Latin 00:00:24 Now don't tell me the English word "chase" comes from "fugare". 00:01:04 Proto-Indo-European notation is ridiculous. :-P 00:01:15 okay, okay, göa just sounded pretty. 00:01:31 you have to understand, i've been drawing eer diagrams for hours. 00:01:37 Shall I start referring to Agora as Agöra? 00:01:48 with the buggiest drawing program in the world 00:01:52 actually "chase" is from latin "captare", it says 00:02:27 wonder if there's a linux port for paint... i miss paint... 00:02:41 I'd be slightly surprised if the word "capture" didn't come from the same word. 00:02:46 indeed 00:03:32 actually they're both probably derived from capere 00:03:58 And "capital" and "cabeza" both come from the same Latin word, I'd expect. 00:04:13 capital is from caput, i think 00:04:17 = head 00:06:25 cognate with head, more or less 00:06:42 "Old English h.afod, from Proto-Germanic *khaubuthan, from Proto-Indo-European *kauput- (..head, bowl..). Cognate with German Haupt, Dutch hoofd, Swedish huvud; the Indo-European root is also the source of Latin caput." 00:07:31 Wow. 00:07:56 h.afod from *khaubuthan? 00:08:32 that . is e with a bar btw 00:09:12 indo-european k -> germanic h is pretty basic 00:09:46 But then you still have the fod from buthan. 00:09:49 as is p -> f 00:10:10 i don't know how the proto-germanic fits in between 00:10:34 and t -> th which must have been weakened afterwards 00:11:10 Makes sense, I guess. 00:11:22 That "an" on the end was just a passing fad, then. :-P 00:11:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm's_law 00:11:40 probably just an inflection yeah 00:13:53 -!- slereah_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:14:14 -!- slereah_ has joined. 00:18:43 there seems to be an entire class of nouns getting vowel+n endings in germanic, in norwegian the ending turns into -e, sometimes called "weak" nouns 00:18:53 german has something of the same, though not in this word (e.g. Name, with occasional -n) 00:18:53 (it's "hode" in norwegian) 00:19:28 äöo. yuao. ööai. {ns} 00:20:40 (some norwegian dialects inflect weak nouns rather differently from strong ones) 00:21:56 that's the case in swedish too i think, e.g. plural -or vs. -ar 00:22:24 your mother is a weak noun. 00:34:37 -!- ihope_ has joined. 00:37:09 aha! the th -> d is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verner%27s_law 00:37:36 Linguistics? Here? 00:37:45 sure 00:37:46 SimonRC, this is all your fault :o 00:38:14 no mostly mine 00:38:20 Of course! #linguistics doesn't exist--wait, actually, it's much bigger than this channel. 00:38:46 Heh. 00:39:59 It has almost a long novemnonagintilliard people in it. 00:40:35 Which I guess is 10^597. 00:41:05 That's a whole lot of people. 00:41:32 Yeah. 00:45:42 Not as much as a long centillion, though. 00:46:37 Much less a long nongennovemnonagintilliard. 00:46:59 Infinity. Plus one. 00:48:15 -!- timotiis has quit ("leaving"). 00:48:39 Gasp. 00:50:37 Here's a fun word: milliatillion. 00:50:54 10^3003. 00:50:59 Heh. 00:51:24 Although really, above 10^100, things start to get useless. 00:51:43 Above that, it's mostly silly probabilities and theoretical mathematics. 00:52:02 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:54:01 slereah_: graham's 00:54:20 Graham's number, the biggest important number. 00:54:44 -!- calamari has joined. 00:54:47 Hi calamari 00:54:58 Have you been keeping up with PSOX? 00:55:04 no, sorry 00:55:10 One word: wget.b 00:55:22 how big? 00:55:30 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/wget.b 00:55:30 -!- slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:55:44 -!- slereah_ has joined. 00:55:46 Actually fairly trivial with Sgeo's SVN; it has an HTTP domain. 00:55:54 (binding HTTP to a file descriptor) 00:55:59 Graham's number isn't very important. 00:56:16 It's the largest important number. 00:56:18 slereah_: the real value is closer to 6, apparently. 00:56:18 Are there any bigger numbers that have any importance at all? 00:56:29 It's at least 11 and probably bigger. 00:56:59 Well, if it's bigger than 11, it shouldn't be too far from Graham's number. 00:57:14 Amusingly, Graham's number is too large to be written in scientific notation. 00:58:34 pikhq, did you have any trouble writing wget.b? If so, what? 00:58:35 hm there seems to be a typo in the Verner article, th -> d should be th -> dh 00:58:37 I think I'll write a program to list out the name of a number. 00:59:20 Sgeo: The cat bit was slightly difficult, actually. 00:59:35 But even that wasn't too hard, since PSOX has decent debugging facilities. 00:59:43 -i? 00:59:51 Yeah; that was really helpful. 00:59:53 :D 01:03:15 It was basically made while trying to chase down a bug which turned out to be a * where there shouldn't have been a * 01:04:33 one thing stupid about psox 01:04:36 is its safety stuff.. 01:04:38 the os provides that stuff alread 01:04:39 y 01:05:17 pretty cool 01:05:36 calamari, PSOX in general, or wget.b, or what? 01:05:40 both 01:05:46 :D 01:05:57 does it require a special interpreter? 01:06:14 calamari, yes, svn co http://svn2.assembla.com/svn/psox/trunk 01:06:34 Well, it's not a BF interpreter itself 01:06:38 oh, so all the existing esolang interpreters/compilers will need to be redone to support psox? 01:06:49 It goes between a standard interpreter and stdio 01:06:52 calamari, not at all 01:07:04 nice 01:07:06 Misunderstood your question, is all 01:07:15 Sgeo: will you remove the safety stuff? honestly, my os is very good at that and its going to be a pain coding the domains i want to with it 01:07:26 ehird`_, it's going to be a pain to do: 01:07:35 if "nogui" in G.SAFETYLIST: 01:07:41 MY_VERSION = 0 01:07:43 else: 01:07:46 MY_VERSION = 1 01:07:49 that's a pain? 01:08:02 Sgeo: the whole idea is a pain 01:08:04 or do you mean ffi? If ffi, just make the domain require ffi as a safety option 01:08:28 Sgeo: the whole idea is a pain 01:08:36 security? 01:08:37 How is it a pain? 01:08:43 oh.. safety 01:08:47 what does it do? 01:08:56 calamari: it is half-assed disabling of certain functions in psox. 01:09:01 G=g64, where g1 = 3^^^^3, and gn = 3^(gn-1)3. . . 01:09:03 that can already be done from within the os 01:09:07 Holy hell, that's big. 01:09:11 calamari, on the command line, if for example, I don't want PSOX to go online, I can give the commandline option -s nonet 01:09:17 Sgeo: or you could tell your os. 01:09:27 Or if I want to allow it to go outside the sandbox, I can give -s fullfileio 01:09:39 idea: if i removed the safety right now, how many people do you think will notice? 01:09:40 :) 01:09:45 ehird`_, I will 01:10:20 yes... because you like the feature; not because of it being any good 01:10:34 I suggest that if you don't want certain functions, you could run it sandboxed or as a less privileged user 01:11:02 pikhq, what's your opinion on the safety debate? 01:11:08 calamari: exactly. 01:11:22 but for windows, that wouldn't work very well :) 01:11:23 alternatively... if you don't want to do that... just remove the import from the code! seriously. 01:11:28 calamari: see what i just said 01:11:30 also 01:11:36 you don't run external code without reading it 01:11:38 if you're paranoid like that 01:11:43 its just like downloading and running a perl script!! 01:11:52 about as readable too. 01:12:25 ehird`_: did you help write PSOX? 01:12:40 calamari: no, but i have svn access since a few seconds ago 01:12:48 and have sat by and complained since forever 01:12:48 calamari, ehird helped shape some parts, and is now trying to redo how I/O is done 01:12:57 and write a gui domain 01:12:58 and an ffi domain 01:13:01 and a domain domain 01:13:02 ehird`_: just seems like you're kinda hostile towards it ..hehe 01:13:10 calamari: just that feature. :-) 01:13:26 calamari, ehird`_ has been less hostile towards it since he pointed out that most of the bitwise stuff could be removed 01:13:34 can it? 01:13:39 calamari: yes. 01:13:41 err 01:13:43 boolean stuff. 01:13:48 I think ehird`_ originally became hostile when some stuff he suggested was removed (TDATA (the "ANY" type)) 01:13:52 boolean sure 01:13:57 right, boolean, not bitwise 01:13:58 Mybad 01:13:59 Sgeo: nah 01:14:00 it was before that 01:14:01 i think 01:14:01 :P 01:14:05 bitwise is hard for bf tho.. and/or/xor 01:14:12 although not impossible 01:14:16 calamari, I meant removed boolean 01:14:33 http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/spec/psox-utils.txt 01:15:07 Sgeo: can i just remove the safety stuff and we'll see who exactly is going to write a brainfuck virus and regular people who won't read the code will download it, psox, an interpreter, and blindly run it? 01:15:57 ehird`_, I don't see why you're so violently opposed to the safety stuff 01:16:28 Sgeo: it's crap pointless and will make writing stuff harder for no reason 01:16:46 I'm quite fine with the safety stuff as long as there's some switch to disable it. 01:17:02 ihope_, there's really nothing to disable 01:17:10 ihope_: nobody will use it 01:17:11 What is the safety stuff, then? 01:17:21 iit's just pointless and doesn't help devs 01:17:24 seriously 01:17:36 ihope_, putting -s nonet to disable internet acces, or -s fullfileio to not force file I/O to be in a sandbox 01:18:03 ... which is of course useless as your os can do it anyway 01:18:06 and you can just edit the psox code 01:18:07 Sgeo: are these options defined by the libraries, or are they hardcoded into the executable? 01:18:14 File I/O is in a sandbox by default? 01:18:16 calamari: libraries have to go around them... 01:18:17 ihope_: yep 01:18:19 calamari, defined by the libraries 01:18:22 and 'normal users' aren't going to use psox anyway 01:18:27 and people who will use psox 01:18:30 CAN READ BRAINFUCK CODE!! 01:18:40 it is JUST LIKE downloading a Perl program, can't you see that Sgeo? 01:18:44 Or even Java! 01:18:51 Who said I can read Brainfuck code written by others? 01:18:53 How come they don't have any need for it; but PSOX does? 01:19:01 And WHO IS GOING TO WRITE A BRAINFUCK&PSOX VIRUS? 01:19:02 Sgeo: so if I'm writing my own library calamari::blah .. it could add -s abcd to do something? 01:19:09 calamari, yes 01:19:13 Don't you see...? 01:19:17 brb 01:19:20 Are there other safeties that are enabled by default? 01:19:24 Sgeo: that seems fine to me.. *shrug* 01:19:40 Sgeo: Don't you see, though? I honestly don't see how you don't get what I'm saying 01:19:53 If so, it seems that there is indeed something to disable. 01:20:06 ehird`_: if I'm understanding what he is saying.. you don't even need to worry about the safety stuff if you don't care 01:20:20 calamari: you most certainly do 01:20:44 ehird`_: why? if my calamari:: library doesn't want to respect -s nonet, it would just ignore it 01:21:02 calamari: ahh but it needs to respect -s nocalamarilibrary 01:21:08 What calamari said 01:21:13 and also if i want stuff included in the main psox distro 01:21:14 i'd have to 01:21:31 Sgeo: Name one use case for the safety, and tell me how it is different from just running a Perl script? 01:21:40 And also, tell me who will write a PSOX virus. 01:21:48 ehird`_, someone who hated me 01:21:54 ... 01:21:58 or some other PSOX fanatic who is unable to read BF code 01:21:59 ehird`_: if you don't like the standard library, make one without the safety stuff.. problem solved? 01:21:59 well 01:22:10 I HATE YOU SGEO!! Wait.. I know... I'll write a PSOX virus! 01:22:14 MWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! 01:22:19 :) 01:22:29 what's psox? 01:22:42 http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX 01:22:52 Sgeo: anyway, what if I can't read Perl? 01:22:53 thx 01:22:55 Tritonio_: it's an esolang wrapper that extends its functionality 01:23:10 filesystem functions etc? 01:23:13 ya 01:23:17 Tritonio_, eventually, yes 01:23:26 memory management? 01:23:29 Sgeo: Here are some scenarios: 01:23:32 1. I don't know Perl 01:23:33 wraps around stdin and stdout? 01:23:35 Tritonio_, currently, there are only math utilities and HTTP 01:23:35 2. I download a Perl script 01:23:36 3. I run it 01:23:38 ---- 01:23:43 1. I don't know Brainfuck. 01:23:46 http??? lol. nice... 01:23:48 2. But I have a brainfuck interpreter and PSOX! 01:23:55 3. And I like downloading PSOX programs! 01:24:00 4. And someone has written a PSOX virus! 01:24:03 5. And I download it and run it! 01:24:20 Sgeo: The Perl script is 5 times more likely to be a virus; PSOX just does not have the need for these features. 01:24:52 ehird`_: I like the idea that my code will have the ability to read command line options 01:25:09 calamari: Sure. That's great and all. I'm just highlighting a problem. 01:25:12 Sgeo, why don't you simply map the functions of a high level language? like python... 01:25:26 And PSOX will offer normal command-line argument handling, presumably. 01:25:28 calamari, thing is, there is a virtual command line that a PSOX client can read (-c fakecommandline) 01:25:47 A bit ugly, but I don't know how to do it better 01:25:54 wget.b uses it 01:26:12 Sgeo: that sounds fine.. sh/bash do it that way 01:26:50 calamari, but that weighs in in ehird`_'s favor in the debate, so -s isn't needed for that sort of functionality 01:26:58 so you could do -c -s nogui 01:27:22 Well, I think that would leave the virtual command line blank actually 01:27:26 I'm not sure how it works 01:27:30 hehe 01:27:37 -c "-s nonet" 01:27:54 -c would generally be used for the client to read 01:28:03 but then the program would have to handle it 01:28:10 -s is instructions to the libraries usually regarding what to allow and not to allow 01:28:11 rather than PSOX 01:28:21 right 01:28:48 well how about this? -s HTTP=no 01:28:55 then it'd disable HTTP:: 01:29:12 Hm, I'm not sure how I'd go about coding that 01:29:23 Although that does make sense 01:29:28 isn't HTTP definied in its own file? 01:29:33 I don't know how optionparser works 01:29:41 ahh 01:29:45 but the safety stuff could be stored in a dictionary I guess 01:29:55 neither do I.. haven't really studied perl.. just python 01:30:15 The reference PSOX interpreter is Python 01:30:19 -!- slereah__ has joined. 01:30:21 *is in Python 01:30:21 that's just loading&unloading domains 01:30:21 then the libraries wouldn't have to deal with safety at all 01:30:24 which is fully reasonable 01:30:27 but its nothing to do with safety 01:30:33 calamari, yes they would 01:30:33 ahh cool 01:30:51 Sgeo: no they woulen't 01:30:51 well I can help you then.. I've done a lot with python parsing 01:30:59 anyway 01:31:01 calamari, currently, PSOX.py uses regex 01:31:02 that feature is trivial 01:31:20 http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/impl/PSOX.py 01:31:59 -!- slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:32:37 ehird`_, you just removed safety from the trunk 01:32:41 * ehird`_ smirks 01:32:47 I was wondering how long it would take you to notice. 01:34:41 ehird`_ broke PSOX 01:34:46 haha 01:34:47 how 01:34:49 :o 01:34:56 MY_VERSION is required 01:35:52 fixed it 01:36:22 ehird`_, no you didn't 01:36:26 You fixed it in one place 01:36:31 Sgeo: the rest were already fixed 01:36:31 :/ 01:36:34 they all have MY_VERSION 01:36:45 dc_exampledomain? 01:36:51 ah 01:36:53 ok 01:37:04 Also, one of the system domain functions looks at G.SAFETYLIST 01:37:07 okies 01:37:09 i'll fix too :P 01:37:23 ah 01:37:23 well 01:37:25 ehird`_, going to fix the specs too? 01:37:27 that's specifically safety-related 01:37:32 so, i'll comment it out and reserve it for use 01:37:53 and tyes 01:38:09 calamari, pikhq, do either of you find it objectionable that ehird`_ just unilaterally made a change without my permission? 01:38:25 perhaps 01:38:28 but i don't think anyone noticed 01:38:30 because nobody used it. 01:39:21 Sgeo: anyway, all fixed and spec updated. 01:40:20 No, python PSOX.py python testcustdomain.py isn't working 01:40:36 Are you still importing SAFETYLIST? 01:40:40 Sgeo: No. 01:40:43 I THINK i fixed that 01:40:45 Oh, maybe in PSOX.py 01:40:46 XD 01:40:54 no, not in PSOX.py 01:40:59 ok 01:41:00 then time to hunt 01:41:33 ah 01:41:34 exampledomain 01:41:37 thanks grep(1) 01:42:12 should be ok now 01:42:19 Or you could have assigned a blank list to G.SAFETYLIST 01:42:52 Works now 01:42:55 Sgeo: dunno why.. but I gues I had to see something like wget before I woke up and got interested :) 01:43:14 although I'm not completely thrilled by the impl.. seems like it could be simpler 01:43:27 calamari: it could be 01:43:32 you could practically golf it 01:43:56 so if you don't mind.. I may fool around with a fork and see what comes of it 01:44:00 calamari, thank pikhq for wget.b 01:44:14 * Sgeo doesn't mind 01:44:23 then if you like it, could merge it 01:44:29 calamari: please don't add safety... i can't be bothered to have another debate 01:44:30 :P 01:44:38 ehird`_: lol.. 01:44:50 ehird`_, we really haven't finished our debate, you unilaterally removed safety 01:44:52 you agreed with what I had to say about it I think 01:45:01 Sgeo: Would a C psox be a good idea? 01:45:17 ehird`_, not if it would be difficult to implement domains 01:45:18 I mean, as the main impl. Justification: 01:45:21 Sgeo: Oh, no. 01:45:25 You can embed Python and stuff. 01:45:25 ehird`_: C isn't good at dynamically importing stuff, is it? 01:45:31 calamari: dlopen 01:45:37 dlopen? 01:45:39 dlopen. 01:45:45 Sgeo: But I mean, the justification 01:45:49 is that C has the best library support 01:45:52 so the FFI would be the richest 01:46:08 I think that'd tie it down to linux only 01:46:19 or posix or whatever 01:46:21 uhh 01:46:21 no 01:46:24 dlopen is on windows to 01:46:26 too 01:46:44 you can't be suggesting that all os's have the same libraries 01:46:44 No, Linux only is not an option. I complicated retrieving input so PSOX would work with Windows 01:46:57 did you not read.. 01:47:09 calamari: I assume Sgeo isn't actively planning to support VMS. 01:47:17 Sgeo: I just said.. 01:47:23 dlopen is on windows 01:47:39 as long as you write a 3-line wrapper for it 01:47:40 ehird`_: can you give a dhopen example? I am not familiar with it 01:47:47 dlopen, sorry 01:47:48 Can't you embed C into Python? 01:47:48 calamari: eh, google... not off the top of my head 01:47:56 Sgeo: Uh, that's not quite the point. 01:48:03 And no, you can't without a lot of horrid pain. 01:48:29 ehird`_: the advantage of python is that it is cross platform with a standard set of libraries 01:48:37 c is pretty standard. 01:48:43 c has more libraries, too. 01:48:50 also, you overestimate how complex psox is... 01:48:56 and how many libraries it'd need to use 01:49:00 s is.. but besides the std lib, nothing else is standard 01:49:09 s->c 01:49:32 they'd pretty much have to install cygwin to use it 01:49:50 One objection to a C interp as ref is that I don't know C 01:50:57 no 01:50:57 they 01:50:58 wouldn't. 01:50:59 :| 01:51:02 seriously 01:51:14 i can write it as libc with a few wrappers for dlopen 01:51:15 that's it 01:51:20 +python stuff, if wanted 01:51:48 please provide a simple example, even if it's pseudocode 01:52:12 calamari: of what. 01:52:25 ok then 01:52:32 dlopen("foo.so", flag); 01:52:34 or 01:52:40 open_wrap("foo"); 01:52:45 which will call the win32api on windows 01:52:50 thanks 01:52:51 foo.so 01:52:59 that's foo.dll 01:53:03 on windows 01:53:25 but there is no guarantee that foo.so and foo.dll are even compatible 01:53:31 calamari: ... 01:53:33 this is for psox domains 01:53:36 on linux 01:53:38 and posix 01:53:41 they will be compiled to .so 01:53:42 on windows 01:53:43 .dll 01:53:47 and the wrapper will handle it 01:53:51