Literate program

00:28:56 pikhq, there? 00:29:25 Nope. 00:29:50 pikhq, would you want to implement my extended C version? it would include regex for return and parameters as oklopol suggested 00:30:48 -!- timotiis has quit ("leaving"). 00:32:52 Should I allow "define" ? It opens up room for side effects. 00:33:01 Without "define" side effects are much harder to create. 00:34:14 define == global variable. 00:34:21 I am thinking of only allowing const globals. 00:38:21 are you writing a scheme? 00:38:45 No. 00:38:56 Just thinking about taking features from scheme. 00:41:36 in scheme, define is hardly responsible for side effects 00:41:56 yeah you use set! 00:42:20 But it can be. 00:42:28 no I don't think so 00:42:34 Without define there is no room for side effects anywhere. 00:42:37 it's probably not R5RS COMPLIANT 00:42:58 (let ((x '())) (set! x 3) ....) 00:44:13 (define x 3) (+ x x) (define x 4) (+ x x) The define has a side effect, it causes a different result. 00:46:07 you don't know what "side effects" mean. 00:46:11 *means 00:47:17 Equivalent to doing nothing. 00:47:29 Defining alters the environment. 00:48:07 16:42 Without define there is no room for side effects anywhere. 00:48:12 * marshmallows doesn't have a precise definition of effects :S 00:48:19 lament: In my language. 00:48:31 apparently non-termination can be considered an effect 00:48:50 Eh, let me rephrase. 00:49:07 Define cause side effects, so I cannot decide to implement it or not. 00:49:21 the Recursion monad :) 00:49:39 lament: Touche regarding my previous statement. 00:49:58 data Rec a = Now a | Later (Rec a) 00:49:58 All books are 3 characters. Check syntax and try again 00:50:21 Sgeo, ? 00:51:31 So, Rec is now or later? 00:51:31 :p 00:52:00 non-termination is then indicated by Later (Later (Later ( ... :) 00:52:16 have you heard of sturctural recursion 00:52:29 (or the other thing I can't remember the name of) 00:52:35 codata? 00:52:43 no 00:52:45 (which is what this Rec should be) 00:52:51 general recursion 00:52:52 in scheme, only top-level defines are sideeffecting 00:52:53 it means you can't call yourself in general, but must use a specific combinator 00:53:04 eliminators 00:53:08 folds 00:53:19 wait, that's not true is it 00:53:19 e.g. those ^^ 00:53:50 yeah, it's true 00:53:55 lament: i think define is equivalent to set! whenever a define of the same variable is in the same scope 00:54:08 1:=> (define (foo) (begin (define x 2) (display x) (define x 54) (display x))) 00:54:12 1:=> (foo) 00:54:12 5454# 00:54:15 the one I studued was for machines where everything was a Nat, and the only recursion was calling yourself with an argument decremented 00:54:28 oerjan: no, apparently it's only top-level. 00:54:31 you can do most stuff, but not (e.g.) Ackermann's 00:54:45 oh? 00:55:05 i didn't even realize scheme behaved this way. This is most odd. 00:55:09 define is the same as set! on the top level if the variable is bound 00:55:26 and not otherwise? i see. 00:55:33 marshmallows: you have to admit my example doesn't output what you expect it to output. 00:56:15 probably to make toplevel interactive mode not require any (less?) special treatment? 00:56:40 since in an interactive interpreter you definitely want to allow redefinitions 00:56:52 actually that's bigloo 00:56:56 zzzzzzzzzzzz 00:57:01 and PLT simply doesn't allow me to execute that statement 00:57:08 "define: not allowed in an expression context in: (define x 54)" 00:57:13 SimonRC: primitive recursion 00:57:24 oerjan: yup 00:57:24 lamet use let instead of begin 00:57:25 zzzzzzzzzzzz 00:57:36 sorry? 00:57:52 maybe that's wrong too 00:57:58 no, it doesn't matter what you use 00:58:00 i quote r5rs 00:58:12 "Definitions may occur at the beginning of a (that is, the body of a lambda, let, let*, letrec, let-syntax, or letrec-syntax expression)" 00:58:20 the key phrase being "at the beginning" 01:00:15 scheme is annoyingly complicated for being supposedly so simple 01:00:17 but it's good complexity 01:01:14 there's a special case for allowing definitions inside a begin when that begin is your first statement 01:01:24 ie (begin (begin (define x 2)) (display x)) ==> "2" 01:01:40 so the begins get "folded" 01:03:41 (begin (begin (define x 1) (display x)) (define x 2) (display x)) ==> "12" ; look, i'm redefining stuff! 01:04:30 (i don't actually get it, why is that allowed?) 01:07:12 -!- jix has joined. 01:07:34 ohh 01:08:05 the begins don't just get folded, they also get folded with the top level 01:08:16 so the definitions inside a begin on top level are top-level definitions 01:08:21 and work like set! 01:08:40 > (begin (define x 1) (display x) (define x 2) (display x)) 01:08:41 12 01:08:49 but trying to put that in a function is an error 01:08:54 because you're no longer on top level 01:09:53 isn't that kinda stupid? 01:10:57 * lament thinks the top level environment should not be "magical" 01:13:11 * lament thinks some more and changes his mind 01:24:08 lament: Heh. 01:43:50 * Sgeo is bored 01:44:08 I'd be at a party right now if it weren't so far away or if dad wasn't working 01:53:20 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 02:03:59 haha, party 02:07:39 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 02:37:13 -!- Corun has joined. 02:38:18 I feel like doing a random comic. Ideas, anyone? 02:38:55 frogs 02:39:11 dragons 02:39:12 ok 02:39:17 Hot dogs. 02:39:17 Umbrellas. 02:39:31 and a haunted castle 02:39:40 Skis. 02:39:40 Party hats. 02:39:40 Chimney sweeps. 02:39:45 hm. I'm pondering here 02:39:52 Emmanuel Kant. 02:39:55 slereah_: quality over quantity, dude 02:39:59 -!- Corun has left (?). 02:40:10 Well, what's the criteria for random quality? 02:40:54 10% Nobel prize quality, 10% Plan 9 from outer space. Fill in the intermediates yourself 02:40:55 thought provoking, original and interesting. 02:41:16 something that sparks my interest and that I can build from. 02:41:29 Mad Science! 02:41:35 that sparks _my_ interest 02:41:55 and it could tie up all the other suggestions 02:42:26 hm 02:42:43 mad science and chimney sweeps sounds like a good candidate 02:44:38 -!- slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:44:53 -!- slereah_ has joined. 02:45:07 genetically engineered dragons used as chimney sweepers 02:45:08 INTERNEEEEEEEEEEEEETS >:| 02:46:34 I can already picture them. 02:46:34 Like hairy chinese dragons. 02:57:36 i love hot dogs 02:57:40 damn i'm hungry 02:59:19 See RodgerTheGreat? It's a story that just write itself! 02:59:46 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 02:59:55 I'm already off and running on some steampunk 02:59:56 -!- calamari has joined. 03:23:11 'Conformance checkers must check that the input document conforms when scripting is disabled, and should also check that the input document conforms when scripting is enabled. (This is only a "SHOULD" and not a "MUST" requirement because it has been proven to be impossible. [HALTINGPROBLEM])' 03:23:46 ~http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ 03:23:52 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ 03:24:24 Yes, let's also put in a spec "Conforming programs SHOULD try to make 1+1=3" 03:25:39 that's a strawman: it is probably only impossible for _some_ input documents 04:07:37 a small tidbit of things to come: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1205723239-preview.png 04:10:34 Oooh, steampunk. 04:15:35 indeed 04:17:43 Which reminds me, in case any of you haven't noticed, that Casey and Andy has resumed. 04:22:07 and as a bonus, some character designs: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1205724112-chars.png 04:24:13 -!- adu has joined. 04:33:55 1337. 04:35:33 I'm aiming for 2-3 pages for a quick story here over the course of the next week or so, and if It turns out well, I'll think about continuations 04:37:34 continuations are good. i hear delimited ones are even better. 04:37:36 continuations? 04:38:07 I recently realized how to implement a tail-call on ppc 04:38:56 oerjan: whats a delimited continuation? 04:42:41 better ? :S 04:42:51 I thought they are equivalent 04:48:07 oh i'm a bit vague on that 04:49:50 I don't know what to do 04:55:24 i think it is something like, an ordinary continuation contains the entire rest of the program, while a delimited continuation only contains it _up to a point_ 04:56:59 and then you can do some kind of manipulation of what happens once you reach that point 04:57:23 I see 04:57:26 combined with the usual use and even reentering of the continuation 04:59:21 O_o http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Rot-13#XSLT 05:04:27 i think we have different ideas about what a continuation is 05:05:03 what aspect of programming languages should I write about? 05:05:09 xslt is so lame 05:05:41 marshmallows: I think you should write about genaric datastructures and how they relate to binding environments 05:05:54 for example 05:05:58 I don't know what a genaric datastructure is 05:06:02 any other ideas? 05:06:19 a genaric "list of integer" would have only elements that are of type integer 05:06:33 I can't write about this topic though 05:06:41 what for? school? 05:06:55 because I'm bored 05:07:00 oh 05:07:28 then write about the most common 101 datatypes used in the industry today 05:07:40 :[ 05:09:49 i would imagine the top 10 would be (int, string, bool, vector, list, float, hash-table, enum, exception, and possibly queues) 05:10:41 marshmallows: why are you asking if you don't want my ideas? 05:11:50 marshmallows: what do you want to write about? 05:11:58 I can't decide 05:12:48 then maybe the wisest option is not to write anything 05:13:12 perhaps reading would be a better idea 05:37:35 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:31:54 -!- andydude has joined. 06:31:56 -!- adu has quit (Connection timed out). 06:32:50 -!- andydude has changed nick to adu. 06:45:06 -!- atsampson has joined. 06:46:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:52:36 -!- oklopol has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:52:36 -!- cmeme has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:52:36 -!- cherez has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:56:53 -!- atsampso1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:58:20 -!- cmeme has joined. 06:58:41 -!- oklofok has joined. 07:02:31 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:11:53 -!- oklofok has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:12:11 -!- cherez has joined. 07:12:52 -!- oklofok has joined. 07:39:09 -!- andydude has joined. 07:40:25 -!- adu has quit (Nick collision from services.). 07:40:33 -!- andydude has changed nick to adu. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:24:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Gooed knight"). 08:55:28 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 09:12:35 -!- adu has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:32:55 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:08:42 -!- slereah__ has joined. 14:22:47 -!- slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:28:05 -!- slereah_ has joined. 14:41:52 -!- slereah__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:09:19 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 15:15:59 RodgerTheGreat: the comic looks good so far 15:16:12 but the blond guy's hair changes colour 15:16:20 everything changes color 15:17:37 alas using the standard technique of making everything capital letters prevents the full effect of something being called "the Apparatus" 15:17:48 (i.e. the capital A gets lost) 15:18:52 granted 15:19:27 keep us updated 15:22:21 I shall 16:04:30 -!- jix has joined. 16:23:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:58:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:06:27 SimonRC, comic? 17:06:33 SimonRC, what comic? 17:06:47 (hm, could you make an esolang of it?) 17:12:10 http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1205723239-preview.png 17:12:37 (by RodgerTheGreat unless my memory is like swiss cheese) 17:15:41 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:24:56 -!- ehird has joined. 17:25:37 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric - Extending tetration to the reals in Brainfuck. | Logs: http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric | Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ | The Esoteric File Archive: http://esolangs.org/files/. 17:26:39 marshmallows = new? 17:26:47 hi ehird 17:26:47 [16:26] [Whois] marshmallows is an operator on channels: #ALGOL 17:26:49 well that does it 17:26:51 :-) 17:27:03 evidently; an agent of evil 17:27:07 :D 17:28:20 * oerjan has discovered marshmallows's secret, with the help of the mighty Logs 17:28:49 data Rec a = Now a | Later (Rec a) 17:28:50 All books are 3 characters. Check syntax and try again 17:28:52 brilliant 17:29:04 fix Later 17:29:04 :D 17:29:18 indeed o_O 17:30:09 lament: your scheme is broken, by the way 17:30:22 #;1> (define (foo) (begin (define x 2) (display x) (define x 54) (display x))) 17:30:22 #;2> (foo) 17:30:22 254#;3> 17:30:40 bigloo is not a scheme interpreter 17:30:43 not a conforming one at least 17:31:17 lament: however, remove (begin ...) and replace with ... 17:31:22 it's implicit in lambda-bodys 17:31:28 and your example becomes standard 17:31:59 thought provoking, original and interesting. 17:32:01 YOUR MOTHER 17:32:08 * ehird kicks self repeatedly as punishment 17:32:30 for what? o_O 17:32:50 oerjan: saying that :D 17:32:51 'Conformance checkers must check that the input document conforms when scripting is disabled, and should also check that the input document conforms when scripting is enabled. (This is only a "SHOULD" and not a "MUST" requirement because it has been proven to be impossible. [HALTINGPROBLEM])' 17:32:55 that's perfectly reasonable 17:33:02 ensuring validity is perfectly fine 17:33:14 the only time it would break is pretty much when a deliberately malicious script was there 17:35:38 02:25:51 17:35:38 I am trying to decide if I should even implement closures.02:30:50 17:35:38 They are so slow. 17:35:47 closures are slow, let's go writing micro-optimized languages 17:36:11 i mean jeez 17:36:12 its an esolang 17:36:13 :| 17:36:50 Deformative: "comment..." 17:36:54 that's what smalltalk does 17:36:58 and uses '...' for string 17:36:58 s 17:56:46 I don't know what to do 17:56:55 should I use haskell or scheme to write a WAM in? 17:57:05 (or C, or something else?) 17:59:09 Prolog. *ducks* 18:04:51 ehird: what's bigloo? 18:05:38 http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/An_article_that_contains_nothing_but_a_cut-down_version_of_itself_that_does_not_contain_itself 18:05:43 lament: your scheme apparently 18:05:48 (i know what bigloo is. I just don't understand why everybody hates it so much when it seems one of the better implementations) 18:06:18 in general the scheme community is weird in that they hate stuff that's clearly good 18:06:18 lament: because it ISN'T a scheme implementation 18:06:29 it is broken. 18:06:37 so obviously not 'clearly good' 18:06:42 what do you mean it isn't? they say it's "mostly compliant" 18:06:52 which is as good as most things 18:07:18 lament: the reason your example gets that output is because bigloo is broken. 18:07:22 bigloo is also broken in countless other ways. 18:07:27 ergo, bigloo is not clearly good 18:09:10 is gcc broken because it supports single-line comments in C? 18:09:41 lament: look, bigloo is broken 18:09:58 but evidently you know more about scheme than me and #scheme and you must, therefore, be right when you claim that bigloo is 'clearly good' without justification 18:10:30 how's saying it's broken without justification any better than saying it's clearly good without justification? 18:10:42 When i said "clearly good", i mostly referred to r6rs, by the way :) 18:10:53 hahaha 18:10:54 which is an unrelated issue 18:11:11 R6RS is great! 18:11:22 it doesn't even matter if it's great or not so great 18:11:28 It's like eating mcdonalds everday 18:11:30 the amount of hate #scheme generates towards it is just unbelievable 18:12:17 marshmallows: why do you say that? 18:19:46 I can't produce a rational argument, I simply feel that way 18:19:54 This is funny though http://www.utdallas.edu/~ramakrishnan/Projects/GC_for_C/index.htm 18:20:00 gc for c is not funny... 18:20:08 well, that page is 18:20:10 I need a GC 18:20:15 but boehm's gc, for instance, is a good idea for real use 18:20:18 I don't really want to write one 18:20:21 marshmallows: boehm. it is great. 18:20:26 well tested, robust, very widely used.. 18:20:32 just don't fuzz about with pointers too much ;) 18:20:34 PLEASE DON’T USE THE CONTENTS OF THIS PAGE FOR PLAGIARISM 18:20:34 It didn't compile for me 18:20:39 I'll try again 18:21:08 is that embedded INTERCAL code? 18:21:15 /* 18:21:15 <> 18:21:15 18:21:15 */ 18:21:21 /* 18:21:21 This is the source code of our collector. Save this file in the name "GC.h" and gothrough the "Read_me.pdf" and "User_Manual.pdf" file for more details. 18:21:21 */ 18:21:32 also it has excessive whitespace and each stdlib include file is extensively documented 18:21:53 FOR EXAMPLE: 18:21:53 /* 18:21:54 This header file is included inorder to enable us to do string operations 18:21:54 */ 18:21:54 #include 18:22:25 lament: their malloc printf's when it can't allocate 18:22:27 if(gc_ptr == NULL) 18:22:27 { 18:22:27 /* return NULL */ 18:22:27 printf("\nYour Request cannot be satisfied even after Garbage Collection \n"); 18:22:27 return NULL; 18:22:29 } 18:22:40 and on incorrect calls, prompts the user 18:22:41 printf("\nGC_ERROR 1 : The argument for the GC_malloc function should always be positive"); 18:22:41 printf("\nDo u want to exit or continue without allocation (y/n ) : "); 18:22:41 scanf(" %c",&gc_continue); 18:22:52 haha 18:23:24 lament: you could use that for the befunge 'ask on div 0' thing 18:23:24 :D 18:59:44 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 19:13:15 -!- ehird`ii has joined. 19:13:28 testy 19:13:43 echo>foo sending to irc is a weird feeling 19:14:19 testy2 19:14:32 testy3 19:14:46 very amusing little thing.. gotta play with this some more 19:16:11 now... how do I quit?\! 19:18:22 -!- ehird`ii has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:22:07 -!- ehird_ has joined. 19:22:11 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:56:44 ehird_, err? 19:56:49 now... how do I quit?\!? 19:56:53 what were you doing? 20:01:13 -!- ehird_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:04:01 Deewiant, there? 20:04:28 if a befunge interpreter runs out of memory trying to push a value on stack, what should it do? call abort() or reflect with known broken state? 20:04:43 -!- ehird_ has joined. 20:07:23 * Sgeo had a lucid dream! 20:07:44 http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showpost.php?p=735756&postcount=104 20:08:23 -!- slereah_ has changed nick to slereah__. 20:11:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:13:06 Sgeo: do you want a medal? :P 20:13:11 hi, ais523 20:13:29 'You are dreaming. Do a reality check!' <-- no. I am not 20:13:43 I do not use a computer in my dreams, because that would be sad. :D 20:14:04 ehird_: hi 20:14:07 * Sgeo doesn't either 20:14:23 * ais523 doesn't remember having used a computer in dreams 20:14:25 (Strangely enough, because I'm on the computer ALL THE TIME irl) 20:14:32 But apparently some people do 20:14:34 but I often think about programming whilst trying to fall asleep 20:14:45 i'm heavy in lucid dreams 20:14:46 AnMaster: I'd say the best solution is to reflect, but at that point the befunge program can't really do anything about the situation so might as well abort 20:14:55 ehird_, what was " very amusing little thing.. gotta play with this some more" about? 20:14:59 like i'm carrying all the weight of my mind saying 'you're not meant to be able to do this in dreams, damnit' while walking 20:15:06 AnMaster: a file-system based FIFO irc client 20:15:13 Deewiant: context? 20:15:17 AnMaster: you cat to 'in' files and tail -f 'out' files 20:15:20 Deewiant, yes because I just replaced the stack array pointer will a null pointer anyway XD 20:15:22 and it has a directory tree 20:15:27 of server/entity/in,out 20:15:40 ehird_, link? 20:15:44 ehird_, coolness 20:15:50 does anyone here have code for a very simple IRC client, so that it could be translated into an esolang? 20:15:52 ais523: running out of memory when pushing a value on the on stack 20:15:58 er, s/the on/the/ 20:15:59 AnMaster: http://www.suckless.org/wiki/tools/irc/irc_it 20:16:04 AnMaster: from the people who brought you wmii&dwm 20:16:10 ehird_, tried zsh irc? or was it zirc? 20:16:14 ais523: yes, yes i do 20:16:23 http://www.suckless.org/wiki/tools/irc/simple_irc_client 20:16:26 isn't that convenient? ;) 20:16:34 ais523: <250 lines of c 20:16:55 ehird_, anyway there is an irc client in *pure* zsh, no external commands called 20:17:03 AnMaster: yes i know 20:17:04 and you can work in your shell at the same time 20:17:05 i told you about it. 20:17:10 it kind of hooks into the shell 20:17:15 i told you about it. 20:17:32 ais523: be warned, sic isn't very nice to use 20:17:34 ehird_, nah you didn't, I remember it was someone on #gentoo-amd64 who did 20:17:41 ais523: it's bitchx-style - multiplexes everything into one stream 20:17:42 ehird_: I don't care particularly 20:17:44 so you get mixed up channels 20:17:46 etc 20:17:46 it's the proof of concept, really 20:18:00 and you can always just start two clients for two channels and use them with different nicks 20:18:07 ais523, what language? befunge? 20:18:14 AnMaster: INTERCAL 20:18:14 presumably befunge-98 20:18:17 ais523, ah 20:18:19 ais523: uhh, intercal has sockets? 20:18:27 you cannot use netcat: you need stdin for user input 20:19:03 INTERCAL + PSOX has sockets!@ 20:19:14 because I just found out that CLC-INTERCAL added generalised networking support 20:19:14 (previously, networking could only be used to steal data from other INTERCAL programs) 20:19:15 Sgeo, -_- 20:19:16 Sgeo: yes 20:19:20 Sgeo: oh shut up. 20:19:29 especially since the overhead to using psox from intercal would be painful 20:19:34 I would have done it like that if it weren't for the networking library already present 20:19:38 (ditto in just about every non-brainfuck language. don't fool yourself :)) 20:19:41 ehird_, oh why would it? 20:19:43 and ehird_: you could localise the overhead in a subroutine pretty easily 20:19:51 AnMaster: psox is basically brainfuck-centric. 20:19:57 Sgeo just says it isn't for marketing potential 20:20:16 at least in C-INTERCAL; CLC-INTERCAL would be harder because some ASCII characters are easier to produce than others 20:20:19 ehird_, bf centric? how+ 20:20:22 s/+/?/ 20:20:25 (because it uses Baudot as its character set) 20:20:26 AnMaster: try and use it, then see :) 20:20:35 brainfuck-centric sounds boring 20:20:40 ais523: hmm, is C-intercal modular/extensible/foobarbaz? 20:20:45 ais523: I might write a SOCKET foobar. 20:20:49 It was designed mostly from the point of view of using Brainfuck, but it doesn't actually force you to use Brainfuck 20:20:51 ehird_: pretty much 20:20:56 ehird_, a "foobar"? 20:21:03 although I'm writing an FFI for it at the moment, which would make it even more extensible 20:21:03 == intercallish for module? 20:21:12 AnMaster: pretty much :D 20:21:14 ehirdish 20:21:21 AnMaster: generally we just use library files which you literally copy into a program's source code 20:21:37 they're all kept with the distribution to avoid line number clashes 20:21:42 (it's sort of like CPAN, but lower tech) 20:21:53 ais523, couldn't be done for networking I think? would need some interpreter level support 20:21:59 There is a loopback mechanism making it usable (but not easily) in languages that take in lines and not individual characters 20:22:03 AnMaster: CLC-INTERCAL has that 20:22:26