00:04:56 <oklofok> i always disliked guitar's b and e, the fact you can play a few chords easier isn't really worth losing the simple structure of 4ths
00:05:37 <oklofok> it would be such a nice instrument if you could put a black key between e&f and b&c
00:12:32 <GregorR> If you put a black key between E&F, it would be (logarithmically) half the difference between any other two notes, that would be nonsense.
00:14:37 <oklofok> GregorR: naturally all intervals should be chromatic steps
00:15:04 <GregorR> So, you're just saying that you don't like that the Piano is "tuned" to a C scale by default.
00:15:08 <oklofok> i mean, physically between e and f, not logically
00:15:18 <GregorR> Got it, OK, that makes more sense :P
00:15:51 <oklofok> well given my explanation about guitar you might have caught what i was going for... or not, i'm not that good at explaining.
00:16:21 <GregorR> I wasn't actually following the conversation, just caught that bit :P
00:16:28 <GregorR> I'm just waiting for RodgerTheGreat to reappear :P
00:17:05 <oklofok> it's not a conversation, it's a monologue!
00:20:23 <lament> oklofok: mandolins are tuned in fifths, GDAE, same as violins
00:20:47 <oklofok> the article said they sometimes do, indeed
00:20:54 <lament> it's the standard tuning
00:20:55 <oklofok> i assumed that's a rarer tuning
00:21:04 <oklofok> but okay, that is better than guitar's
00:21:09 <lament> it's better than everything
00:21:13 <lament> for analogy with piano
00:21:16 <lament> imagine playing in the key of c
00:21:28 <lament> and now, imagine playing in the key of c no matter what key you're actually playing in :)
00:21:37 <lament> there's only one scale to remember
00:21:42 <GregorR> Imagine playing in the key of C...
00:21:49 <GregorR> Then putting down your C trumpet and picking up a Bb trumpet ...
00:21:50 <lament> (well, not really. but more or less)
00:21:53 <GregorR> And playing in the key of Bb!
00:22:08 <oklofok> lament: that is true of guitar too
00:22:25 <lament> on guitar, there's a whole bunch of scales to remember thanks mostly to that third between G and B
00:22:42 <lament> so there's at least 5 pretty different major scales
00:22:42 <oklofok> depends on the amount of frets
00:23:05 <oklofok> but true, pure 4ths or pure 5ths is better
00:23:39 <lament> 5ths is a little better because you don't need to shift the position as often
00:23:48 <lament> because the majority of notes fall under your fingers anyway
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00:24:20 <lament> on guitar, more notes are outside the position
00:24:33 <lament> and you have to shift or stretch to get them
00:26:28 <lament> 5ths also reflect the structure of the scales themselves better
00:26:39 <lament> but i'd need to draw a picture to show that clearly
00:27:28 <lament> on guitar, some of your fingers are wasted at any moment because they fall on frets which are out of the scale
00:28:13 <oklofok> adding another octave makes both crasg.
00:28:20 <lament> eg, you're playing minor, starting with the first finger, you play the first three notes
00:28:33 <lament> you use up first finger, third finger, fourth finger
00:28:42 <lament> and your second finger is wasted, you're unlikely to play that semitone
00:28:54 <lament> but on the mandolin, each finger corresponds to a note
00:29:13 <lament> (each finger corresponds to more or less two frets, and independently shifts between them)
00:29:27 <lament> so you play the first three notes with the first three fingers
00:29:40 <oklofok> yes, yes, i understand english, man :-)
00:30:42 <lament> the effect is somewhat like on the piano, where you don't waste your fingers either
00:30:56 <lament> if you're playing in C major, the fingers fall on the white keys, one finger per note
00:31:30 <lament> the thing about structure is better explained with a picture
00:31:36 <lament> that i'm too lazy / too at work to draw at the moment
00:32:25 <oklofok> i'm always interested to hear, so if you feel like drawing it later, do show
00:35:16 <lament> there's a particularly pretty correspondence with the cycle of fifths
00:35:24 <lament> and in particular, the cycle of modes
00:36:20 <lament> each scale is 2 tetrachords
00:36:58 <lament> the cycle of modes goes lydian-ionian-mixolydian-dorian-etc
00:37:11 <lament> suppose we're in the key of c
00:37:24 <lament> and ionian (major) mode
00:37:44 <oklofok> you can just tell me the numbes
00:37:49 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode
00:39:44 <lament> better yet, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_musical_modes
00:39:56 <lament> that's something you should know regardless of the instrument you're playing
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00:41:15 <oklofok> well i didn't read the second one yet
00:42:35 <lament> it's fairly basic music theory stuff
00:45:10 <oklofok> i mean, i know the keys of the piano, and memorizing a few names isn't really all that useful imo
00:46:09 <oklofok> of course interesting to memorize what scales are using in different music styles
00:46:21 <oklofok> but it all seems a bit... informal
00:47:46 <oklofok> well i'm not going to argue you, it's just i feel the current formalization of music isn't really all that optimal
00:47:56 <oklofok> but i may be wrong, i've never really studied it.
00:47:59 <lament> but modes are a very useful concept
00:48:09 <lament> they actually do describe stuff well
00:48:59 <oklofok> so modes are names for the scales on piano, without black keys?
00:49:05 <oklofok> i mean, in short, is that it?
00:49:28 <oklofok> i guess it would be appropriate to learn the names
00:49:43 <lament> the most common modes are ionian (also known as major)
00:49:51 <lament> aeolian (also known as natural minor)
00:50:07 <lament> and mixolydian (major with the flattened seventh; the "dominant" scale)
00:51:35 <GregorR> If you play it, it will seep into your soul and slowly start to dominate it.
00:51:55 <GregorR> Eventually, you will no longer be oklofok, you will only be the mixolydian scale.
00:52:07 <lament> oklofok: if you're in C major, and play G7
00:52:18 <lament> that G7 is a dominant chord
00:52:31 <oklofok> how long till i turn into it?
00:53:00 <lament> it's a mixolydian chord
00:53:43 <lament> as you see this isn't esoteric - 7 chords are used all the time in practically all styles of music
00:54:32 <oklofok> "lament: the cycle of modes goes lydian-ionian-mixolydian-dorian-etc" <<< can you explain this?
00:55:13 <oklofok> i do pretty chromatic stuff myself
00:55:27 <lament> that's just the cycle of fifths
00:56:05 <lament> ...i really need a picture at this point.
00:56:11 <oklofok> cycle of fifths... can you try to be more unambiguous, i'm not feeling all that bright today
00:56:32 <lament> do you know what the cycle of fifths is?
00:59:18 <lament> okay, forget about the modes.
00:59:43 <lament> cycle of fifths is the key concept of western harmony.
00:59:49 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_fifths
00:59:57 <lament> you absolutely need to know that.
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01:02:01 <oklofok> it was funny when they tried to teach us intervals and scales with that thing :D
01:02:23 <oklofok> so much work for something so simple
01:02:35 <oklofok> oh, right, i'll reread what you said
01:03:30 <oklofok> it seems you were only starting to explain something
01:06:50 <oklofok> do continue, i'll scream if i don't know a term.
01:07:38 <lament> a scale is made up of two tetrachords
01:07:53 <lament> for example, c-major: CDEF GABC
01:08:05 <oklofok> where the latter ends in the base note?
01:08:26 <lament> on the mandolin, if you start the scale on the first finger
01:08:45 <lament> each tetrachord fits on a string
01:08:57 <lament> and the second tetrachord starts on the first finger again
01:09:10 <lament> now this second tetrachord
01:09:20 <oklofok> i think i see where this is going
01:09:21 <lament> is actually the first tetrachord of mixolydian mode: GABC DEFG
01:10:16 <oklofok> should this correspond to the cycle of fifths?
01:10:26 <lament> because the strings are tuned a fifth apart
01:11:20 <oklofok> i never gave much thought to the western way to classify music
01:11:24 <oklofok> always used my own notations
01:11:29 <lament> now, let's see how it actually looks
01:11:58 <lament> 0245 == O O OO (on a string that goes from left to right)
01:12:16 <lament> normally you draw strings vertically but that's hard on irc
01:12:33 <lament> so the first one, 0245 0245, and then 0235 etc
01:12:56 <lament> and then you just continue the pattern
01:13:18 <lament> each two adjacent strings are the same
01:13:36 <oklofok> it would cycle after that, right?
01:13:41 <lament> that's the neat part, i already did minor :)
01:13:54 <lament> it's the fourth of those lines
01:14:13 <lament> sorry, the fifth and the sixth
01:14:27 <lament> the fourth and the fifth :)
01:14:44 <lament> so the overall pattern is
01:14:49 <lament> the first and the fourth fingers don't move
01:15:03 <lament> and in the middle there's this "ladder" that moves from the top to the bottom
01:16:39 <oklofok> doesn't it go . . || three times after that
01:16:44 <oklofok> and then cycles from . || .
01:16:55 <lament> after that, the ladder "falls through the floor"
01:17:27 <oklofok> i don't get these last two
01:17:27 <lament> we have shifted one fret down
01:17:41 <lament> the last two are supposed to be . . ||
01:18:04 <lament> the ladder is back at the top
01:18:38 <oklofok> so the cycle is seven patterns long
01:18:53 <lament> and it's simple enough to vizualize
01:19:09 <lament> (you only need to vizualize the 4-string portion that actually fits on the instrument)
01:20:02 <lament> and for all modes, the cycle is the same (since all modes are generated from the same scale, just starting on different keys)
01:21:23 <oklofok> you do realize an ideal model of strings 4ths apart will have as simple a pattern for the scales?
01:21:53 <oklofok> it's just played a bit differently.
01:22:14 <lament> part of the prettiness and symmetry here is that the scale is split into two mostly symmetrical parts
01:22:18 <lament> look at the major again:
01:22:24 <lament> the two halves are identical!
01:22:37 <lament> you can't have that when you split it into 4ths
01:23:40 <oklofok> you can split a subset of superset of it
01:24:10 <lament> i don't think you'll get this symmetry with a 7+2 split
01:24:23 <lament> i mean, the symmetry around a 5th is not just a coincidence
01:24:31 <lament> the notes a fifth apart actually have similar "color"
01:24:45 <lament> 1st and 5th are "the base"
01:25:12 <lament> 3rd and 7th are "color", they define the character of a chord if we're playing a chord
01:25:16 <oklofok> the major scale has a lot of interesting properties, yes
01:25:19 <lament> maybe "character" rather than "color"
01:26:12 <lament> is a pain to play on the guitar :)
01:26:28 <lament> guitar is not really meant for that
01:26:41 <lament> normally it's one finger per fret
01:26:44 <oklofok> and if it's acoustic or not
01:27:02 <oklofok> if it's not acoustic, it depends on where you play :D
01:27:43 <oklofok> i also have dropped a tuning, which adds a bit more hell
01:27:53 <oklofok> because you have two points of asymmetry
01:28:38 <lament> I know that some people who play primarily melody and not chords tune in all fourths
01:28:58 <oklofok> dropped is for playing power chords easily.
01:29:24 <lament> the annoying thing on guitar is that for chords, you want a specialized tuning
01:29:25 <oklofok> dunno, i've never really been into the popular part of band stuff
01:29:29 <lament> but for melody, you want a regular tuning
01:29:39 <lament> so you get a weird hybrid
01:29:57 <lament> mandolin players resolve it by mostly sticking to the melody
01:30:15 <lament> (and in the styles where they mostly play chords, often retune)
01:30:33 <oklofok> well i only do power chords, so i could easily do with pure 4ths
01:30:55 <oklofok> but i only play in a band, and i'm the only mathematician there :P
01:31:29 <oklofok> pure 5ths work for power chords unless you want the octave there, too
01:31:46 <lament> for power chords you want 5-4-5-4-5-4 :)
01:32:31 <oklofok> because 0|2|2 is as easy to play as 0|0|0
01:32:31 <oklofok> you prolly don't get my notation
01:32:52 <oklofok> fret in lowest string|...|fret in highest string
01:33:11 <oklofok> 0|0|0 is with 5-4-5-4-5-4-5... tuning
01:33:22 <lament> but people use drop d often
01:33:24 <oklofok> yarrr i guess you understand english too
01:33:30 <lament> exactly because they think 0|0|0 is easier than 0|2|2
01:33:59 <lament> ...clearly it's easier, although clearly one should be able to play both :)
01:34:25 <oklofok> but it's really the cornerstone of the kind of music i play
01:34:37 <oklofok> so... i may just be used to it
01:34:49 <oklofok> 2|2|0 seems a lot harder to me
01:34:52 <oklofok> and 5-4-5-4-5-4 needs that
01:35:54 <lament> have you actually tried all 4ths?
01:36:05 <lament> it kinda seems like it has potential
01:36:18 <lament> but i have invested too much time learning chords for the standard tuning
01:36:36 <lament> (so might as well just switch to a whole different instrument for playing melody...)
01:37:07 <lament> but i want to switch to mandolin and similarly tuned stuff
01:37:40 <lament> it's great but not having frets muddles things a bit
01:38:07 <oklofok> i'm planning to make my other guitar fretless
01:38:52 <oklofok> nile does this in metal, although you probably don't appreciate that kind of stuff
01:39:21 <lament> fretless is fun but you pretty much say goodbye to chords
01:39:38 <oklofok> fairly hardcore stuff, i'm fairly sure you couldn't listen to it enough to hear any melody in it
01:40:13 <oklofok> well, we may have a different view on what's metal
01:40:13 <lament> i don't listen to it, but i like it
01:40:39 <oklofok> i mean more like grindcore
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01:42:36 <oklofok> they do interesting stuff with the fretless guitar in a few songs
01:42:51 <oklofok> unfortunately i can't name these songs, for one, the names are to long to remember anyway
01:43:08 <oklofok> i don't really listen to music much
01:44:16 <oklofok> not *that* interesting, of course, metal is usually fairly limited, although probably one of the least limited genres
01:44:52 <lament> limitations are interesting too :)
01:45:42 <oklofok> but i'd say more in the historician sense
01:45:51 <oklofok> to see what limits have developed naturally
01:46:52 <oklofok> but most popular music, and a lot of classical music, is so limited i find it hard to get interested at all
01:47:23 <oklofok> and jazz etc often gets so weird i cannot find much overall structure
01:47:59 <oklofok> although you might argue i'm just dumb, it is clear that music usually takes a big jump in weirdness between non-modern and modern
01:48:14 <oklofok> modern is really a bad classification
01:48:28 <oklofok> i have next to no vocabulary when it comes to music.
01:50:15 <oklofok> i need to sleep for a while, thanks for the mode lesson
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03:17:34 <RodgerTheGreat> this is really unsettling: http://www.motionportrait.com/about/
03:19:10 <RodgerTheGreat> and the cartoon ones look evil. http://www.motionportrait.com/about/demo_others_05.html
03:19:37 <Slereah> I do not understand this page.
03:20:17 <RodgerTheGreat> it's some type of software that can animate still images and make them look around, breathe, and smile in what generally comes out as a really creepy way
03:26:44 <Slereah> I have my share of stunning right now.
03:26:53 <Slereah> http://www.misterkitty.org/extras/stupidcovers/stupidcomics102.html
03:27:07 <Slereah> Chuck Norris. Ninjas. Objectivist propaganda.
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03:31:06 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.misterkitty.org/extras/stupidcovers/chuck7.jpg <- this is great
03:31:59 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.misterkitty.org/extras/stupidcovers/chuck8.jpg <- and this is probably my favorite panel
03:33:10 <Slereah> Chuck Norris' best ally is misinformation.
03:33:37 <Slereah> This one is also pretty fucked up : http://www.misterkitty.org/extras/stupidcovers/stupidcomics115.html
03:33:42 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: Can I put that on a T-shirt?
03:33:44 <RodgerTheGreat> what the hell kind of ninjas use guns as weapons and believe internet memes?
03:34:17 <Slereah> RodgerTheGreat : They don't use guns.
03:34:20 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: People from the Internet
03:34:28 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: I want that on a T-shirt.
03:34:32 <Slereah> When the fight breaks out, they just leap on him.
03:34:54 <Slereah> Except that one ninja who fires.
03:34:56 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: did you plan on selling it to people, or just for personal use?
03:35:18 <GregorR> Well, I was going to use CafePress to produce it, but just wanted one for me :P
03:35:51 <RodgerTheGreat> if you're just making one for yourself, go for it. If you sell them to other people, I'd like a cut. Either way, I'm flattered. :)
03:36:09 <GregorR> Well, even if I did have CafePress sell it, I wouldn't make any profit :P
03:36:26 <GregorR> (I always put the price 1 cent over the base price, just so it doesn't end in .99)
03:40:43 <GregorR> What name shall I use to give you attribution in the "product" description?
03:45:08 <GregorR> http://www.cafepress.com/bizarregeek.250445859
03:46:20 <RodgerTheGreat> the eyes look kinda odd, but I suppose it just adds to the effect
03:47:30 <GregorR> I've learned from experience that you don't use fine details on CafePress T-shirts - the result fades into the abyss very quickly - so I had to GIMP-warp some of the lines a bit, which, yeah, weirded the eyes, but I don't think it hurts particularly :P
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03:58:22 <RodgerTheGreat> so, there's a local art show with a submission deadline tomorrow at 5pm. What do you folks think I should make to enter, and what medium should I use? (pen and ink or digital are the main two runners)
04:03:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I might try reworking this a bit and doing a nice big one or two page comic: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/files/SYSTEM%20DOWN.txt
04:04:31 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not sure how well the wordplay would translate, though
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04:54:08 <RodgerTheGreat> so do you have any commentary on the art project idea?
04:56:44 <GregorR-L> Apparently not, since I'm not sure to what you refer :P
05:00:57 <RodgerTheGreat> so, there's a local art show with a submission deadline tomorrow at 5pm. What do you folks think I should make to enter, and what medium should I use? (pen and ink or digital are the main two runners)
05:00:59 <RodgerTheGreat> I might try reworking this a bit and doing a nice big one or two page comic: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/files/SYSTEM%20DOWN.txt
05:01:04 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not sure how well the wordplay would translate, though
05:02:13 <GregorR-L> Seems like a bit much text to try to media-convert, perhaps lossy with translation.
05:06:56 <RodgerTheGreat> maybe I'll submit one of my old paintings, "Hunter of Spatulas" http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1207368367-spatch.jpg
05:10:28 <RodgerTheGreat> this was my favorite painting: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1207368583-anything.jpg
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05:12:20 <GregorR-L> Particularly since it really just raises questions about the context, and provides little to no answers.
05:12:42 <GregorR-L> pikhq: http://www.cafepress.com/bizarregeek.250445859 // get the newest thing to hit the intarwebs! :P
05:13:54 * pikhq returneth from a date
05:15:35 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR-L: do you think they'd let me enter a revised version of "walls"? (http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1207278828-walls.png)
05:16:54 <pikhq> I guess I should've expected that, though, Gregor. :p
05:24:18 <GregorR-L> Should I blindly put this /topic in a .c file and see what happens?
05:24:48 <pikhq> It looks to me like a more insane language. . .
05:24:54 <pikhq> Like, say, PHP or Perl.
05:25:01 <pikhq> It's obviously a bracket language, though.
05:25:15 <pikhq> From the look of things, it's a quine.
05:25:49 <pikhq> But in what language?
05:25:50 <GregorR-L> Sure, but it could be a quine with the added advantage of reformatting your hard disk :P
05:26:05 <pikhq> vixey: You set it; care to explain?
05:28:15 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Yeah, it's a bracketlang. Bit older than C, though.
05:29:07 <pikhq> Backus Naur Form was invented *to describe ALGOL's syntax*.
05:29:23 <GregorR-L> Ohyeah, I actually knew that once :P
05:30:24 <pikhq> Hmm. Not actually bracketed. Might as well be, though.
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05:46:09 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1207370672-wall.jpg
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07:33:56 <GregorR> Am I the only person who goes "I'd like an egg salad sandwich", and then grills some onions?
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12:30:39 <ais523> what language is the topic in?
12:31:30 <ais523> ...and why does the link to the logs in the topic appear to be a mirror?
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14:39:03 <oklofok> GregorR: were the onions part of the salad?
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14:50:07 <AnMaster> what is the language in the topic?
14:51:10 <oklofok> AnMaster: i did not set it
14:51:19 <AnMaster> oklofok, ah so no idea what it is?
14:52:31 <olsner> hmm, looks like a quine
14:52:32 <oklofok> REPR and STRING should give it away... but no
14:52:44 <oklofok> well yeah, i do know how it works
14:58:43 <AnMaster> * vixey has changed the topic to: http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ --> STRING p="STRING p=?;print(p[:9]+REPR 34+p+REPR 34+p[11:])";print(p[:9]+REPR 34+p+REPR 34+p[11:])
14:58:44 <AnMaster> <vixey> I bring quines of ALGOL
15:11:35 <olsner> oh, I see how that works now... REPR = character from integer and string[a:b] for substring extraction
15:11:55 <olsner> quite nice for such an old language
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15:18:34 <ais523> ah, and you're using UPPER stropping
15:18:51 <ais523> I thought you had to write a pragma using POINT stropping first before you were allowed to do that?
15:20:16 <ais523> olsner: ALGOL-68 had separate keyword and identifier spaces
15:20:16 <ais523> you were allowed to call a variable if, if you liked, even though it was a keyword
15:20:16 <ais523> and also variable names could contain spaces
15:20:32 <ais523> in a book, keywords were printed in bold and variable names in italic
15:20:38 <ais523> but you couldn't do that in a real program
15:20:50 <ais523> so stropping was the way you distinguished between keywords and variables
15:21:04 <olsner> hmm, so basically everything uppercase is looked up in the keyword namespace?
15:21:13 <olsner> depending on the "stropping" setting?
15:21:30 <ais523> POINT stroppping means that you write a dot before each keyword: i.e. .string p = ".string p=? and so on
15:21:50 <ais523> UPPER stropping means you write keywords in uppercase and variables in lowercase (I think that's what's used in the topic)
15:22:13 <ais523> and RES stropping meant that if anything was the same as a reserved word, then it was a reserved word, unless you preceded it by an underscore to mark it as being a variable
15:22:49 <ais523> so in other words, the quine up there should either have extra .s added, or start .pr UPPER .pr, because POINT stropping is what's used by default unless you changed it with a pragma
15:23:54 <ais523> (some implementations allowed other sorts of stropping; apparently there was one where you underlined keywords using the underscore and backspace characters)
15:24:08 <olsner> apparently some algol implementations had UPPER stropping as default
15:24:26 <ais523> that's what the topic would imply
15:25:03 <ais523> hmm... actually, ISTR an implementation could use any form of stropping, but had to recognise POINT stropping no matter what form of stropping was being used
15:25:21 <ais523> so the .pr UPPER .p is just needed to make the program portable, but it would still work on some implementations anyway
15:25:54 * ais523 worries that they know all this about a language which is almost twice as old as they are
15:26:21 <oklofok> well not knowing algol is a sin
15:26:57 <fizzie> I think a friend used some algol implementation with the "underline-with-backspaces-and-_" thing.
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15:27:51 <olsner> overtyping characters is just so poorly supported on modern systems, unfortunately
15:28:29 <ais523> nowadays, I reckon that Algol should support HTML stropping, so it's actually possible to do the bold-and-italic thing
15:28:29 <ais523> nowadays, I reckon that Algol should support HTML stropping, so it's actually possible to do the bold-and-italic thing
15:42:46 <ais523> <oklofok> well not knowing algol is a sin
15:42:58 <ais523> I know some things about Algol, but am apparently bad at recognising it
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15:54:52 <ais523> !ul (I may as well say hi too)S
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15:55:16 <ais523> it isn't meant to do that
15:55:59 <ais523> and of course I sent the first hello by bouncing it off thutubot
16:00:45 <RodgerTheGreat> "How many Surrealists does it take to change a lightbulb?"
16:01:30 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat: don't know
16:01:32 <RodgerTheGreat> "Two - One to paint the giraffe and the other to fill the bathtub with brightly coloured machine tools"
16:01:52 * ais523 wonders how many esolangers it would take to change a lightbulb
16:02:26 <RodgerTheGreat> an unbounded number, but on the plus side the process of changing the bulb would be TC
16:03:41 <ais523> in #irp: <ais523> Would someone here please change a lightbulb?
16:03:49 <ais523> now we can find out, hopefully
16:05:34 <RodgerTheGreat> do it at least twice- we have no idea if it's deterministic
16:05:42 * ais523 suspects that on the basis of the lack of response, the answer is greater than 6
16:07:56 <RodgerTheGreat> ais523: I have the best knock knock joke ever- say "knock knock"
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16:13:11 <ais523> oh, I got a reply in #irp
16:13:20 * Sgeo then greets someone named "rwg" in another channel..
16:13:38 <ais523> followed by a comment 'No observable effects for you, though'
16:13:55 <ais523> so the answer is apparently '1, but it takes a while and you can't prove it'
16:13:58 <Sgeo> What was the command?
16:14:03 <RodgerTheGreat> we've got some pretty good interpreters. I told you it would take some time
16:14:10 <ais523> <ais523> Would someone here please change a lightbulb?
16:16:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I think this might be worth inclusion on the IRP wiki entry
16:17:13 <ais523> I'll put it there, the original conversation's in my logs
16:18:53 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd also argue that IRP is turing complete by nature of the fact that interpreters are not limited to their own mental faculties.
16:19:11 <ais523> they are limited by the amount of storage in the universe
16:19:29 <RodgerTheGreat> they can refer to the internet, other humans, or any number of handwritten notes, etc, even making use of any TC language the interpreter knows
16:19:43 <RodgerTheGreat> by proxy, I think it's fair to then say that IRP is TC
16:44:58 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat: but it can't even do 99bob!
16:45:36 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd argue it can if you phrase it right. "Would somebody please find a 99bob program, run it, and paste the output to me?"
16:48:19 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat: would you say that a shell with no flow control but with a batch file mechanism is TC?
16:48:25 <ais523> because it can run external programs?
16:48:55 <RodgerTheGreat> sure, if it has access to TC programming languages or some other means of producing new programs
16:49:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I mean, the argument for is that while the shell *itself* is not TC, it's part of a system that *is* TC
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16:57:28 <SimonRC> Wow, I didn't know there could be such objectionable science fundamentalism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzdv2dsPPKw
16:58:48 <SimonRC> OTOH, Science won in the 18th century, when lightning conuctors became standard for church rooves
17:03:40 <SimonRC> But PoT was done with squares, not circles, surely?
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17:05:10 <SimonRC> Unless RodgerTheGreat meant it was like PoT, rather than being an extract from PoT
17:06:26 <ais523> wildhalcyon: what is a halycon, anyway?
17:06:52 <SimonRC> a type of asphyxiating gas, I think
17:07:54 <wildhalcyon> it means peace, or its a type of bird (a kingfisher to be precise)
17:07:58 <ais523> Wikipedia doesn't have an article about it
17:08:38 <RodgerTheGreat> ais523: then do some research and rectify the problem?
17:08:44 <ais523> but it's used in articles, usually as an adjective
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17:09:42 <ais523> the word is halcyon, but I'd misspelt it as halycon
17:10:30 <RodgerTheGreat> google is pretty much the most powerful spell-checker ever constructed
17:11:19 <ais523> nah, it can't spell INTERCAL
17:12:39 <RodgerTheGreat> as with any tool, it performs poorly if you don't know how to use it
17:13:29 <SimonRC> ah, I was confusing Halcyon and Halon
17:13:56 <ais523> SimonRC: iodine is a liquid
17:14:20 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, it displaces oxygen really well, which kills fires, but unfortunately most animals like oxygen as well
17:15:15 * ais523 just realised that they mixed Halon and Halogen
17:18:26 <oklopol> i once mixed halon and halogen, god what an explosion
17:19:54 <oklopol> (i have no idea what halon is, but it sounds dangerous.)
17:20:26 <ais523> oklopol: chemically speaking it's like a CFC, but is allowed to use bromine too
17:20:33 <ais523> so CFCs are a subset of halons
17:21:01 <ais523> this also means that they're more or less completely safe to humans and other objects, but catalyse the destruction of the ozone layer
17:21:03 <oklopol> cfc's are the things destroying like the ozone layer and making a greenhouse out of our planet KILLING EVERYONE, like, or something?
17:21:50 <oklopol> if something is said while i'm typing, i often ignore it
17:22:00 <ais523> oklopol: CFCs are almost the perfect inert gas for many purposes, except for the destroying-the-ozone-layer problem. That's why they caught on in the first place, before the ozone layer problem was discovered
17:22:15 <ais523> oklopol: I don't ignore it, but I often don't read it until after I've finished typing
17:22:26 <ais523> and even when I do I often finish typing and press enter anyway, even if it's redundant
17:22:46 <oklopol> i do that too, usually, but it's my main reason to fail to get a message
17:23:26 <SimonRC> well, in the past one could bame netlag
17:23:43 <ais523> SimonRC: you still can when using telnet
17:23:44 <oklopol> yes, but then one realized baming isn't the solution
17:23:59 <ais523> when someone pings you you can edit the timestamps to change the apparent delay
17:24:05 <ais523> (as well as the time you spend typing the ping reply)
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17:41:37 * Sgeo remembers seeing some server room at Hofstra (I was there at summer camp), and they had those things that suppress fires with gas
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17:41:46 <Sgeo> </delayed-and-redundent>
17:42:01 <ais523> Sgeo: they also have them on the Channel Tunnel
17:42:17 <ais523> they have airlocks between all the carriages so they can put out a fire while the train is still moving and people are still aboard
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18:43:47 <ais523> hmm... do the one-char quines in PHP and m4 count as cheat quines?
18:45:16 <ais523> any char that has no meaning in the language
18:45:21 <ais523> because it's just echoed
18:45:29 <ais523> e.g. _ is a quine in both languages
18:45:50 <Slereah> It does seem a little cheaty.
18:47:02 <ais523> here's a nice cheatquine in Perl, by the way:
18:54:44 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat: it's a great book
18:54:45 <Slereah> It never really inspired me to buy it.
18:55:13 <ais523> the dialogues there, as well as making points, are effectively the esoteric version of poetry/playwriting/prosewriting/whatever
18:55:19 <SimonRC> ais523: that's linux genrally, not perl, surely?
18:55:24 <ais523> they all have strange constraints to make them work like music
18:55:37 <ais523> SimonRC: yes, it works in POSIX
18:55:51 <ais523> but also, when Perl sees a #! line mentioning another application, it execs as that application instead
18:56:00 <ais523> whereas the shells don't
18:56:16 <ais523> they only pay attention to #! if you run a program without specifying which application to use
18:56:25 <ais523> so #!/bin/cat is a cat quine, but not a sh quine, for instance
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18:56:32 <ais523> but everything's a cat quine
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19:11:33 <ais523> AnMaster: now you have to write an IRC client for vi
19:12:13 <AnMaster> there are several irc clients for emacs
19:12:16 <ais523> but I noticed your quit message
19:12:33 <AnMaster> ais523, there is an irc client in pure zsh too
19:12:38 <ais523> wow, you must really hate vi
19:12:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't stand vi indeed
19:13:04 <ais523> I'm an Emacs user normally when it comes to programmer's editing, but have been known to use vi on systems that aren't powerful enough to run Emacs
19:13:10 <ais523> and whatever ehird thinks, they do exist
19:13:18 <ais523> (I'm very bad at vi, though)
19:13:43 <AnMaster> like end up in wrong mode *all the time*
19:14:11 <AnMaster> or if ed isn't there, I would do sed
19:14:31 <AnMaster> under NO conditions will I use vi
19:14:42 <fizzie> You people are strange.
19:14:53 <fizzie> I wouldn't touch Emacs evar if I had Vim somewhere.
19:15:09 <ais523> AnMaster: I've used sed before on a situation where I was stuck at a command prompt, Emacs wasn't installed, I didn't know how to use vi and I'd forgotten the existence of nano
19:19:09 <ais523> TECO is great, but from the point of view of an esolang rather than an editor
19:19:36 <ais523> remember that when it was invented, computers only ran in batch mode, and you needed a TC lang to specify where on the tape to correct or edit
19:20:00 <ais523> also, using all the characters in a character set, including the control characters, is a great idea
19:20:27 <ais523> (Emacs doesn't attach a meaning to some key combinations; for instance, M-x M-butterfly doesn't work yet)
19:20:27 <SimonRC> What *are* the advantage of vi-derivatives over emacs-derivatives?
19:20:47 <ais523> SimonRC: the advantage of Emacs is that it knows everything about the formats you use, the environment you're in, etc.
19:20:52 <ais523> the advantage of vi is that it doesn't need to
19:21:20 <wildhalcyon> I like vi. It's annoying sometimes, but it gets the job done.
19:21:22 <SimonRC> modern vims are turning into emacs
19:21:41 <SimonRC> they are getting TC macro languages, arrow-key editing, etc
19:22:48 <ais523> hey, Emacs is reluctant about arrow-key editing too
19:23:08 <ais523> yes, it works nowadays, but reading the manual gives you the impression that the original author wouldn't have liked it
19:23:26 <ais523> after all, you never know when you'll end up on a terminal with no arrow keys...
19:24:16 <SimonRC> TODO: travel back in time and standardise the 101-key keyboard in the 1960s, before the ASCII control chars are decided
19:24:48 <ais523> also, Stallman really didn't like backspace = delete-char-backwards
19:24:57 <ais523> because backspace = ctrl-h and ctrl-h = help
19:25:04 <Slereah> Remove the "pause" and "scroll lock" key, too
19:25:15 <SimonRC> Slereah: um, no, not pause
19:25:22 <ais523> so it was set up so that delete = delete-char-backwards and ctrl-d = delete-char
19:25:31 <ais523> SimonRC: not on this keyboard
19:25:37 <ais523> and Pause is actually really useful under DOS
19:25:42 <ais523> SimonRC: no, that's delete
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19:26:24 <SimonRC> ok, the setup I usually encounter is BS = 127, help = 8, and del = some funny control code
19:26:24 <ais523> Slereah: SysRq was originally designed while multitasking operating systems were being planned
19:26:55 <ais523> because it was foreseen that people would need a new key to task-switch
19:26:56 <SimonRC> under linux, alt-sysrq is an "unblockable" signal to the kernel
19:27:02 <Slereah> But is it still in use for anything?
19:27:09 <ais523> as it happened, people ended up using things like alt-tab instead
19:27:27 <ais523> so nowadays most OSs ignore it, and on Linux it sends a signal to the kernel that bypasses the application layer altogether
19:27:42 <SimonRC> alt-sysrq, alt-R, ctrl-alt-f1 is a way to get to the terminal if X breaks
19:27:43 <ais523> except on Ubuntu, apparently, which ignores the Alt-SysRq combinations I know
19:28:00 <ais523> SimonRC: oh, you have to let go of SysRq first
19:28:06 <SimonRC> alt-sysrq, alt-r puts the kb back into "cooked" mode
19:28:15 <ais523> I always tried to hold down SysRq while pressing the R
19:28:45 <ais523> oh, and Alt-Sysrq-Alt followed by REISUB is a safe way to soft reboot under Linux
19:28:52 <SimonRC> ais523: did you read on TDWTF about the guy who tried to hold down all the letters in CTRL-ALT-DEL at once to type it?
19:29:37 <ais523> the REISUB trick puts the keyboard into raw mode, then terms and then kills all processes, syncs the disks, unmounts or mounts RO every disk, and reboots
19:29:52 <ais523> so you don't lose data or end up with an unstable filesystem
19:30:34 <SimonRC> or, alt-H will get you a help message on a terminal
19:31:27 <ais523> doesn't work on this Ubuntu system, Ctrl-Alt-F1 Alt-SysRq Alt-H just types the letter h
19:31:49 <ais523> that's annoying, SysRq codes are really useful
19:32:10 <SimonRC> there is probably something under /proc to turn them on
19:32:18 <SimonRC> or failing that, apply google
19:32:35 <fizzie> Magic sysrq key is a kernel configuration flag.
19:32:46 <fizzie> I wouldn't be very surprised if some distributions turned it off.
19:34:29 <fizzie> Although there is also a sysctl, available via /proc/sys/kernel/sysrq, to toggle whether it's enabled.
19:35:06 <ais523> fizzie: I found the sysctl, set it to 1, and still it didn't work
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19:38:58 <ais523> OK, I figured it, SysRq is Fn-PrtSc on a laptop
19:39:08 <ais523> and has to be held down in Ubuntu for SysRq stuff to work
19:39:21 <ais523> but that implies holding down Fn too, and Fn-H is not H
19:44:05 <SimonRC> no, you let go of everyting before typing alt-h
19:46:13 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1207421117-down1.jpg
19:46:43 <ais523> SimonRC: according to Google you have to hold it down on Ubuntu
19:52:19 <ais523> you have to let go of SysRq but not of Alt
19:54:26 <ais523> so it's +Alt +Fn +SysRq -SysRq -Fn +H -H -Alt to do an Alt-SysRq-H on a laptop
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20:06:20 <AnMaster> http://ipv6.google.com/ <-- cool didn't know about that
20:09:41 <ais523> AnMaster: I can resolve the AAAA record but the wireless router I'm connected to doesn't support IPv6
20:10:01 <AnMaster> well maybe you can access logo anyway
20:10:13 <AnMaster> http://ipv6.google.com/intl/en_ALL/images/logo.gif
20:10:33 <AnMaster> http://ipv6.google.com/images/ipv6_logo.gif
20:10:44 <AnMaster> ais523, try accessing same with www.google
20:16:09 <SimonRC> or the source, or whatever
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20:29:40 * SimonRC laughs at Garfield Minus Garfield (again)
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20:37:27 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1207424203-down2.jpg <- and the second page
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20:43:51 <tola_> ais523: I am PMing you
20:44:39 <SimonRC> you dnot need the screen though
20:44:50 <SimonRC> for the higher difficulty levels
20:45:09 <ais523> tola_: not receiving it over here for some reason, I'll send you a PM to see if that gets through
20:46:08 <tola_> ais523: received both
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20:58:50 <ais523> you're in here twice at the moment
20:59:46 <ais523> +ul (hello from me, too)S
21:00:36 <Sgeo> +ul (does it respond to instructions from everyone)S
21:00:37 <thutubot> does it respond to instructions from everyone
21:01:52 <ais523> it's written in Thutu, piped both ways to netcat
21:02:00 <ais523> at the moment it only supports +ul, +hello and +quit
21:02:04 <ehird_> my bot -- Endeavour -- would be in here if I didn't stop messing around
21:02:09 <ehird_> with technology to make it
21:02:10 <ais523> and responding to pings, of course
21:02:20 <ehird_> right now the plan is a Haskell framework which strongly-types stuff
21:02:26 <ehird_> and types for commands so they are composable
21:02:38 <ais523> Haskell type system sandboxing, too?
21:03:47 <Sgeo> If I did +quit, would it quit?
21:03:59 <ehird_> Sgeo: it would make toast
21:04:00 <ais523> and then I'd possibly get annoyed, and maybe restart it again
21:04:10 <ehird_> ais523: maybe. but it would have a haskell 'eval'
21:04:27 <ehird_> I keep sketching out a basic example -- a Karma plugin
21:04:27 <ais523> watch out for unsafePerformIO
21:04:34 <ehird_> @karma FOO, @karma+ FOO, @karma- FOO
21:04:42 <ehird_> ais523: I will use the mechanism of lambdabot: only evaluate pure code
21:04:47 <ehird_> & don't import stuff like that
21:05:07 <ais523> ehird_: I was thinking of making thutubot issue corrections when people did s/a/b/
21:05:24 <ais523> also, I made it respond with NOTICE before to comply with the IRC spec, but AnMaster told me not to
21:05:54 <ehird_> AnMaster, telling you to disobey the spec?
21:05:58 <AnMaster> ais523, it should do NOTICE on errors but not much else IMO
21:06:12 <AnMaster> ehird, that is how most bots do on irc, and it works better normally
21:06:24 <ais523> AnMaster: but you told me off when I got EgoBot and thutubot in an iterating loop
21:06:26 <AnMaster> because the irc RFCs are a joke
21:06:29 <ais523> the whole NOTICE thing was meant to avoid that
21:07:02 <ehird_> EgoBot/blahbot got into one of them once
21:07:04 <AnMaster> ais523, make it an option for the end user
21:07:05 <ehird_> I think ais523 sired the program
21:07:12 <ehird_> AnMaster: How pointless
21:07:34 -!- thutubot has quit ("ThutuBot quitting").
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21:10:21 <ais523> AnMaster: is that what you meant?
21:10:39 <ais523> making it an end-user option whether to privmsg or notice
21:10:51 <ais523> but that's not the end-user
21:10:55 <ais523> the people in the channel are the end-users
21:11:05 <AnMaster> ais523, ok I meant owner option
21:11:18 <ais523> well, I'd set it to NOTICE, and then you'd tell me off again
21:11:30 <ais523> the code needs a rewrite anyway
21:11:53 <AnMaster> ais523, hm problem is a lot of ircds have mode to block channel notices
21:12:07 <ais523> well, you just don't put a bot into those channels
21:12:21 <ais523> and NOTICE is just a way to send messages without getting autoreplies
21:12:33 <ais523> oh, and ehird_: I once got three bots in a loop
21:12:34 <ehird_> <pikhq>Step 2: Get someone with some sanity on the project.
21:12:40 <ais523> EgoBot and bsmnt_bot were two of them
21:12:44 <ais523> but I can't remember the third
21:12:46 <ehird_> which is amazing considering he works with browsers
21:12:54 <ehird_> ais523: blahbot, probably.
21:13:38 <Sgeo> ehird, I'm not sane?
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21:16:18 <ehird_> Sgeo: Sometimes, people quote logs nd reply to them
21:16:40 <ehird_> However, as for the matter of your sanity, I suggest you look at what this channel is about and make a decision based on that
21:17:53 <ais523> ehird_: my sanity levels had dropped so low during my project last month that I actually went to #esoteric as a method of restoring some sanity, and it worked
21:18:16 <ais523> I also find writing INTERCAL compilers theraputic, for some reason
21:23:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I actually do better just closing my eyes and visualizing the keyboard as I listen
21:25:17 <ais523> um, how many conversations are going on in here at once now?
21:25:34 <GregorR> Mine wasn't a conversation, but I can start one if you'd like.
21:26:07 <ais523> ehird_ may be right, we have to count all the conversations which were abandoned several months ago but will be picked up several months from now
21:26:08 <ehird_> ais523: http://hpaste.org/6847 initial draft of what Endeavour code should look like
21:26:15 <ehird_> don't like the *cmd stuff, it seems like fluff
21:26:41 <ehird_> that isn't quite right just yet
21:27:20 <ais523> see, this is an easily gamable bot
21:27:27 <ehird_> ais523: lambdabot has that too
21:27:38 <ehird_> but nobody cares, it doesn't matter
21:27:47 <ehird_> @karma,@karma+,@karma-
21:27:53 <ais523> actually, I've seen its !help, and I'm not surprised
21:28:00 <ehird_> [21:27] <lambdabot> You can't change your own karma, silly.
21:28:03 <ehird_> that's the one protection
21:28:12 <ais523> lambdabot does everything apart from interpret esolangs, AFAICT
21:28:22 <ehird_> & used to do brainfuck
21:28:54 <ehird_> ais523: http://hpaste.org/6850
21:28:59 <ehird_> it accoubnts for the plugindata stuff now
21:29:03 <ehird_> i'm going to annotate with some types
21:29:51 <ehird_> 'karmaPlugin :: Plugin' --> 'karmaPlugin :: Plugin Karmas'
21:30:39 <ehird_> karmaPlugin :: Plugin Karmas (Map String Integer)
21:30:53 * ais523 has a really devious idea
21:30:59 -!- thutubot has quit ("ThutuBot quitting").
21:33:55 <ehird_> ais523: http://hpaste.org/6851 fully updated Endeavour example, with type info
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21:41:39 <ehird_> ais523: I have GOT to see that
21:41:43 <ais523> ehird_: you've guessed how I'm doing it yet?
21:42:02 <RodgerTheGreat> this is pretty much the perfect song to listen to while reading the first chapter of GEB
21:42:11 * RodgerTheGreat is listening to Music Is Math by Boards of Canada from Geogaddi
21:42:11 <ehird_> ais523: Nope.. But I would like to see
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21:42:22 <ehird_> RodgerTheGreat: Apart from Bach.
21:42:34 <ehird_> +haskell putStrLn "dum de de dum dum"
21:42:40 <ehird_> ais523: A constant nop?
21:42:47 <ais523> and no, it should work eventually
21:42:50 <ais523> but I'm still ironing out the bugs
21:42:56 <ais523> (and it's a cheat, by the way)
21:42:59 <ehird_> ais523: A suggestion..
21:43:04 <ehird_> ais523: If you want to seriously make it evaluate haskell
21:43:09 <ehird_> make +haskell call out to a haskell program
21:43:19 <ehird_> has the thing that lambdabot uses
21:43:33 <ehird_> you basically copy the script over, tweak as needed, and write a short Haskell generator
21:43:51 <ehird_> ais523: anyway, it still isn't working l(
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21:44:15 <ais523> Thutu can't call out to the shell
21:44:21 <ais523> and as I said, it's written in pure Thutu
21:45:59 <ehird_> ais523: But you are already wrapping using netcat.
21:46:09 <ehird_> You can write a shellscript to multiplex to itself and netcat
21:46:26 <Sgeo> Thutu can't use PSOX?
21:47:00 <ais523> but that would be another wrapper
21:47:07 <ais523> and I'm not sure how well it handles \0
21:48:54 <ehird_> Sgeo: You have an answer for everything..
21:49:03 <ehird_> and the function generating it is (const "PSOX")
21:49:16 <ais523> ehird_: anyway, I was trying to get it to relay +haskell queries to lambdabot and copy back the answer
21:49:25 <ais523> it was relaying them fine, but lambdabot was ignoring it
21:49:45 <ais523> which is strange, because it doesn't ignore me with exactly the same PRIVMSG
21:49:53 <ehird_> /msg lambdabot @run foo -- this also works
21:50:00 <ais523> ehird_: it's a bot, so I didn't use /msh
21:50:01 <ehird_> PRIVMSG lambdabot :@run CODE
21:50:03 <Sgeo> ehird_, I'm not saying PSOX is the answer for "How do I go up 340 trillion trillion trillion meters in Havok4"
21:50:35 <ehird_> ais523: did you remember the colon
21:50:41 <ehird_> it's a beaaotch with irc
21:50:57 <ais523> PRIMVSG lambdabot :@run [1..5]
21:50:58 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: where is "The Abyss"?
21:51:06 <ais523> the same command works for me on /quote
21:51:22 <ais523> um, wait, I meant PRIVMSG
21:51:29 <ais523> but I got it without the typo originally
21:52:33 <ehird_> SimonRC: It's the thing with basil and gulesfish
21:54:00 <SimonRC> The basil puzzle had an effect on me like something out of a Lovecraft novel, so I thought it best not to keep trying
21:54:33 <ehird_> Cthulhuplant wants cheezburgr
21:55:55 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: there's a link to the trailhead on my Code page
21:57:32 <SimonRC> oh, like a linked-list head
22:01:01 <SimonRC> but, for the reason given above, I am avoiding it
22:01:38 <SimonRC> experience with many puzzles, text adventures, detective novels, etc shows that me and such puzzles really do not mix well
22:06:36 <SimonRC> I didn't get very far without you helping me
22:06:45 * ais523 is making an esolang-based text adventure
22:06:57 <ais523> as in, it's written in C but all the puzzles are based on esolangs
22:07:03 <ais523> I haven't got very far, though
22:07:10 <ais523> there are puzzles based on INTERCAL, BF and Smetana
22:07:14 <SimonRC> ais523: be sure to take a look at the emacs text adventure "dunnet" for inspiration
22:07:29 <ais523> and there's an obvious location for a HOMESPRING-based puzzle, but I haven't figured out the details
22:10:04 <RodgerTheGreat> in fact the next level I'm planning makes devious use of several
22:11:37 <ehird_> RodgerTheGreat: tell me the answer to basil and i'll get on it
22:11:41 <ehird_> i'm just not interested
22:11:44 <ais523> in most of mine, you're the IP
22:12:13 <ais523> and you have free will to move both backwards and forwards, sideways as well if it's a 2D lang or I've 2D-ised it for puzzle purposes
22:12:29 <ais523> but things like GOTO or COME FROM affect you like they would affect the IP normally
22:24:12 * ehird_ thinks of what language to implement befunge98 in
22:24:27 <ehird_> oh, and ais523, I do logread
22:25:26 * ais523 remembers dropping that message into the logs so you would see it, but can't remember what the message was about any more
22:25:42 <ais523> wow, /me can lead to really strange sentence constructions sometimes
22:28:44 * GregorR says "You should put all your messages in /me says"
22:29:01 * GregorR says, "That's what all the cool kids do."
22:29:42 * GregorR is better than you in every way.
22:29:57 * GregorR makes you feel like a sniveling little baby.
22:30:28 * ais523 * hey, my name is in Usenet bold now!
22:30:51 * ais523 * that's better than unmatched XML tags any time, right?
22:30:55 <GregorR> TO KILL GREGORR, TURN TO PAGE 81. TO SAVE THE PUPPY'S LIFE, TURN TO PAGE 132.
22:32:27 <GregorR> IM IN UR MONAD, ORDERING UR OPERATIONS
22:36:26 <ais523> ehird_: what's that <- for?
22:36:39 <ais523> it's the assignment operator in INTERCAL, but somehow I don't think that's what you had in mind
22:37:37 <ehird_> ais523: haskell do-notation
22:38:34 <ais523> ah, do haskell, temporarily lambda ehird to the result?
22:40:00 <SimonRC> indeed, such a binding cannot be done as the last line of a do-block
22:46:58 <ais523> actually, <- does rather similar things in INTERCAL and Haskell
22:47:02 <ais523> that should be worrying
22:54:40 <ehird_> ais523: 'do ehird_ <- haskell; ...' --> haskell >>= (\ehird_ -> ...)
22:55:23 <ais523> but getting it techically correct is a little hard without mentioning monads, which is what I was trying to do above
23:00:13 <SimonRC> ah, Tkhlpzyv feels much better after that reboot
23:00:42 <SimonRC> d-notation binding is slightly like CPS
23:03:03 <SimonRC> ooh, firefuckedup has offered to restore the previous session
23:03:31 <SimonRC> since this involves creating severeal hundered tabs at once, I now have "Flight of the Valkeries" stuck in my head
23:04:13 <ehird_> => #<procedure FIREUCKEDP>
23:04:21 <ehird_> * (fireuckedp 'firefox)
23:12:55 <ehird_> hmm, who is the 'amb' expert here again?
23:30:31 <ais523> ehird_: it's basically just C with MAYBE and GO BACK
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