00:17:26 <ehird> lament: stillllll going
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00:53:09 <ehird> lament: Guess what's still going?
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01:01:55 <ehird> lament: WELL, these logs have a lot to do with esoteric things
01:01:59 <ehird> but not really programming languages
01:02:00 <ehird> gregorr-w cleans his scottish claymore
01:02:00 <ehird> feesh cleans his teeth
01:02:00 <ehird> gregorr-w cleans his novelty-size 14-inch ribbed black dildo
01:02:00 <ehird> gimme my dildo back bitch
01:02:02 <ehird> gregorr-w hides it somewhere and runs off awkwardly
01:02:04 <ehird> how am i meant to clean my teeth now
01:03:05 <wildhalcyon> mornin', or evenin', or whatever portion of the timecube it currently is wherever you are.
01:05:09 <ehird> wildhalcyon: quater-past ninety
01:06:38 <wildhalcyon> I've decided to express all times in radians from now on.
01:07:06 <wildhalcyon> Engineers and mathematicians will understand what I'm saying. As for anyone else... screw 'em.
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01:08:17 <ehird> Sgeo: When did you first come in here?
01:08:36 <Sgeo> ehird, I don't remember
01:08:47 * Sgeo doesn't remember
01:16:36 * oerjan wonders why google only catches the occasional page in the tunes.org logs
01:20:12 <Sgeo> "You know how in YouTube, when you click pages and the comments for that page load without having to go to a new web page? That's Web 2.0" ~me, earlier today
01:24:10 <ehird> Sgeo: cluelessness 2.0
01:24:31 <Sgeo> ehird, sometime after that (and after he left :( ), I looked up Web 2.0
01:24:36 <ehird> oerjan: it doesn't consider 'empty' directories with no links particularly worthy
01:24:44 <ehird> Sgeo: web 2.0 is a vacant buzzword with no reason
01:24:52 <ehird> Sgeo: you are describing 'Ajax' which is another buzzword
01:25:08 <ehird> but amounts to a way to create an http request and add callbacks to it via javascript
01:25:12 <ehird> then processing the result
01:25:15 <Sgeo> ehird, I know what I described, I just thought at the time that Web 2.0 is AJAX
01:25:29 <ehird> that would make the term even stupider
01:28:25 <GregorR> ehird: Havin' fun reading the logs? X-P
01:28:45 <ehird> GregorR: No, feeding them into ROBOT9000.
01:28:57 <ehird> All four years of them.
01:32:20 <wildhalcyon> has this channel really been around 4 years?
01:33:48 <ehird> wildhalcyon: longer
01:33:53 <ehird> but logs started in 2004
01:34:12 <lament> you can find the announcement message in the esolang mailing list
01:34:14 <ehird> [01:34] -ChanServ- Registered: 5 years 14 weeks 6 days (23h 3m 36s) ago
01:34:23 <ehird> [01:34] -ChanServ- Contact: andreou
01:34:24 <ehird> [01:34] -ChanServ- Alternate: lament << ONLINE >>
01:34:31 <ehird> I think andreou last came in 2003.
01:34:42 <ehird> from my reeee-search
01:35:01 <wildhalcyon> wished I'd gotten involved more sooner, I guess
01:35:24 <ehird> I joined here sometime in 2007.
01:35:38 <lament> esolang was a nice list
01:35:47 <ehird> lament: Is it still alive?
01:35:55 <wildhalcyon> I joined around 2006, but I never really did much. I'm still not terribly active.
01:36:16 <lament> ehird: i think so, there just haven't been any messages in years
01:37:46 <ehird> lament: we should try and get comp.lang.esoteric
01:38:48 <Sgeo> I guess on Tuesday I'll tell him I was mistaken in my description of Web 2.0..
01:39:07 <lament> http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/2002-q4
01:39:13 * Sgeo still feels guilty about it
01:39:27 <lament> back then, freenode was already irc.freenode.net, but was still called OPN
01:40:25 * Sgeo goes on an ant murdering spree
01:40:26 <ehird> lament: that's EFNet
01:40:29 <ehird> look at the announcement
01:40:35 <ehird> ergo, a different #esoteric
01:40:39 <ehird> maybe there's people there... still talking
01:40:42 <lament> if you actually read the messages...
01:40:42 <ehird> and we don't know of them
01:40:57 <Sgeo> ehird, no, not now.
01:41:12 <ehird> Sgeo: did you just check? :P
01:41:17 <Sgeo> Maybe sometimes some people are there, but none right now.
01:41:27 <oerjan> Sgeo: hey you have ants too?
01:41:37 <lament> ehird: do actually read the messages
01:41:45 <ehird> lament: following the guy's sig links i find http://psychanodia.blogspot.com/
01:41:51 <oerjan> or is this something game-related...
01:42:11 <Sgeo> oerjan, real ants :(
01:42:18 <Sgeo> They're all over my desk!
01:42:19 <ehird> Sgeo: you sick person :P
01:42:52 * oerjan uses a drinking glass and a piece of paper to catch them
01:43:23 <ehird> my ants help me code
01:43:25 <ehird> they are very proficient
01:43:43 <ehird> but what they love most is playing Zork
01:43:51 <ehird> 'you are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike' reminds them of home
01:44:10 * oerjan tries not to let them near the computer
01:45:13 * Sgeo should get a tissue box and a garbage, to kill and dispose of ants
01:45:14 <ehird> wildhalcyon: How *DARE* you.
01:45:19 <ehird> wildhalcyon: Go XYZZY your PLUGH
01:46:30 <lament> xyzzy and plugh wasn't really zork.
01:46:49 <ehird> lament: I know that.
01:46:55 <ehird> Even so, they are words related to the game.
01:49:09 <oerjan> evil despicable grain species?
01:49:32 <wildhalcyon> perhaps, but I think it was a type of alcohol
01:49:33 <ehird> There should be a TC esolang with no syntax somehow.
01:49:57 <lament> define syntax, and it shall be done.
01:51:29 <ehird> lament: everything involving the world 'an'
01:51:31 <wildhalcyon> A token followed by one or more additional tokens.
01:52:42 <lament> that's not much of a definition.
01:53:40 <oerjan> well the order of tokens is syntax. so for a language to be totally syntax-free, sorting the characters of a program should not change its meaning >:)
01:54:21 <oerjan> which basically leaves you with 256 unary encoded values...
01:54:31 <wildhalcyon> Tokens may be larger than a single character
01:54:42 <ehird> oerjan: how about: sorting the tokens
01:54:48 <ehird> where tokens are, oh, i don't know
01:54:53 <ehird> let's say many non-whitespace
01:54:57 <ehird> seperated by whitespace
01:55:26 <oerjan> what about morphology then? you could imagine a polysynthetic PL where every program was a single word
01:56:48 <oerjan> now there certainly are already PLs where whitespace is insignificant everywhere. brainfuck for one
01:57:09 <lament> oerjan: actually i can't imagine such a PL
01:57:34 <lament> i don't think that makes any sense at all
01:57:46 <oerjan> depends how you defined "word"
01:58:12 <lament> certainly, but i mean if BF isn't it, then nothing is
01:58:25 <lament> and it seems silly to say that BF programs are "single words"
01:59:18 <ehird> we seem to be splitting hairs
01:59:51 <lament> well, actually, i suppose wierd is single-word
02:20:48 <wildhalcyon> ugh, my new language design is coming along REALLLLLLLY slowly
02:21:53 <ehird> wildhalcyon: eat it
02:22:01 <ehird> then it will co-operate
02:22:05 <ehird> while being digested
02:22:26 <wildhalcyon> I do need the language-design equivalent of prune juice
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02:51:23 <calamari> I have a c2bf question for you
02:51:31 <calamari> you still have those page scans ?
02:51:37 <GregorR> Sure, somewhere, just a sec.
02:51:39 <calamari> from when yopu were designing it
02:51:55 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/c2bf.pdf
02:53:53 <calamari> GregorR: does C expect an infinite stack?
02:54:45 <GregorR> That being said, it has no provisions for running out of stack space. When that happens your program usually dies a painful death :P
02:55:13 <calamari> stack overflow.. not a good thing
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04:08:19 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: this brings up an interesting idea- is there any minimum stack depth required by, say, the ANSI C spec?
04:53:05 <pikhq> The ISO spec, insofar as I'm aware, does not even mandate a stack. :p
04:53:44 <pikhq> (how else to implement functions is beyond me, though. (assuming real hardware. Mr. "Lambda Calculus" can just assume that functions work. :p))
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07:14:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, because of the ff*kyn especially made for fast interpreters on computers with low-granularity timers, so that T would give useful info. ;-)
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10:54:00 <Slereah> http://esolangs.org/w/images/b/b8/Lazy_Bird.png <- it is still thar D:
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11:47:12 <Slereah> Does this seems okay as an Ackerman function? A = ^xy.(((iszero(car y))(xx)i)(((iszero car y) (succ cdr y)) (((iszero cdr y) (x ((cons pred car y) i)) (x ((cons pred car y) (x ((cons car y) pred cdr y))))
11:47:28 <Slereah> And the function itself would be ``AA<m,n>
11:47:42 <Slereah> (Parenthesis might be unmatched)
12:05:19 <Slereah> http://pll.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/charity1/www/wofm/wofm2.html
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12:56:18 <oklofok> hmm, c by itself was proven non-tc, but is there a set of combinators that is tc when c is added, but not otherwise, i wonder
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17:25:39 <AnMaster> UNDEF: 1k # does nothing at k or jumps at k and doesn't move past #
17:25:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but you never test which of those it is?
17:26:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: how could I test it?
17:26:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because I'm wondering if I'm really doing the right thing at concurrent execution in regards to that
17:26:20 <Deewiant> there's no way of telling the difference
17:27:13 <Deewiant> so that takes 3, no matter what.
17:27:18 <AnMaster> hm then why does standard say that k does not execute space
17:27:23 <Deewiant> assuming that k behaviour, that is.
17:27:47 <Deewiant> I recall pasting that long e-mail of mine and the developer of befunge98 about this stuff :-)
17:27:47 <AnMaster> then how does 2kz differ from 2k
17:27:56 <Deewiant> depends on how you implement 2k
17:28:09 <Deewiant> 2kz at least can be guaranteed to be equivalent to zz :-P
17:28:22 <Deewiant> (one z for the 2, one for the k)
17:28:57 <Deewiant> whereas 2k t may spawn one or two threads depending on implementation, for instance
17:29:05 <Deewiant> because the specs are wonderfully confusing on this bit.
17:30:45 <AnMaster> well. it says k should not execute space, so what should it execute instead
17:31:37 <Deewiant> b) reach past the marker and execute next instruction
17:31:50 <Deewiant> possibly other options, that's just off the top of my head. :-P
17:32:00 * ais523 interprets it as meaning that you ignore all spaces and take the next instruction
17:32:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what does CCBI do there?
17:32:27 <ais523> my sense of the Funge-98 spec is that the space character literally doesn't exist (except inside strings, where separate space characters don't exist)
17:32:49 <ais523> the intention seems to be that 1k # should be equivalent to 1k#
17:32:49 <Deewiant> ais523: yes, that's a perfectly valid interpretation.
17:33:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tried contacting Chris Pressey?
17:34:34 * AnMaster realize his Funge-108 draft made that aspect of k even more confusing than before. heh
17:34:44 <Deewiant> I think what FBBI does is it reaches past the space
17:34:50 <Deewiant> but then it doesn't skip over the instruction after executing it
17:35:03 <AnMaster> and then there is the question of ; too
17:35:19 <Deewiant> if 1k # executes # at k, then 1k;;# should as well
17:35:47 <AnMaster> hm, it says it does not execute ;
17:35:54 <Deewiant> and stuff like 1k;<code>;# is a nice obfuscation :-P
17:36:01 <AnMaster> so it can't go into "search for next ; mode"
17:36:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed it's a marker
17:36:55 <ais523> AnMaster: call it Funge-:8
17:36:58 <AnMaster> "Then it finds the next instruction in Funge-space in the path of the IP (note that this cannot be a marker such as space or ;)"
17:37:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: exactly, it's a marker, not an instruction, so you don't need to execute it to do what it marks
17:37:16 <Deewiant> assuming you interpret k that way.
17:37:16 <ais523> Windows 3.1's file manager, when 2000 came, used to date files as being in the year 19:0
17:37:19 <AnMaster> ais523, the name was the request of Chris Pressey
17:37:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do ccbi do on ;?
17:38:16 <AnMaster> so k;a;b;c executes a and c but not b?
17:38:25 <ais523> would that mean k;+ was equivalent to k+ if there were no other semicolons on that Lahey line?
17:38:51 <Deewiant> and if no semicolons are ever generated on any Lahey lines intersecting with that semicolon. ;-)
17:38:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well cfunge instead reflects on k;
17:39:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: whatever. like said, the spec is woefully unclear.
17:39:21 <Deewiant> okay, it's not executed, but what's done instead?!
17:39:27 <ais523> AnMaster: assume I'd said "at the time" at the end of my question, I normally assume that in statements about Befunge unless I specifically state otherwise
17:39:29 <AnMaster> well I need to email Pressey and ask what he meant
17:39:39 <Deewiant> the spec cares too much about what should not happen and doesn't specify what should happen at all. :-P
17:39:48 <AnMaster> ais523, well it took a bit to think about
17:40:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yep so in the 108 draft I adapted the MUST/MUST NOT/SHOULD/SHOULD NOT/MAY thing from RFCs
17:40:31 <AnMaster> that SHOULD or at least MAY help a bit ;)
17:40:40 <Deewiant> are you going to leave any behaviour undefined?
17:40:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'll try to avoid it
17:41:12 <ais523> UB tends to be a useful thing to have in specs in the case where it's clear that an interp couldn't do anything sensible
17:41:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway one thing I'm thinking about is the fingerprint/handprint system, it really is too likely with collisions
17:41:29 <ais523> the Underlambda spec I'm working on allows UB in some places because to mandate specific behaviour would make the language uncomputable
17:41:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, some uri based system would be better
17:41:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yep, needs an overhaul of some kind.
17:42:13 <AnMaster> either java style: tc.catseye.HRTI
17:42:27 <AnMaster> or more like the way xml does it
17:42:30 <ais523> (the interp has to determine which Church numeral a particular function corresponds to; this is easy if it's known that the function is a Church numeral, but I allow UB in the case where it isn't because in general it's an uncomputable problem to determine whether two functions are equivalent)
17:42:39 <AnMaster> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
17:42:44 <AnMaster> so http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/HRTI.html
17:43:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm, are Finnish ppl sauna-fanatics or something? ;P
17:43:36 <ais523> you may need to be careful with XML-style
17:43:36 <Slereah> If it is not a Church numeral, what does it do?
17:43:49 <ais523> because there's no way in general to tell if it's a Church numeral or not
17:43:55 <Slereah> Keep checking 4eva, or gives up after some time
17:44:04 <Slereah> But it can give up on checking.
17:44:05 <AnMaster> ais523, why careful with them?
17:44:13 <Slereah> That's what I used with THE JUGGERNAUT.
17:44:43 <ais523> AnMaster: because much of the w3c's bandwidth is used up by messed-up XML parsing libraries that request the DTD from their servers on every single parse they do
17:45:04 <AnMaster> ais523, well the file would not be machine readable
17:45:11 <ais523> if they cached common DTDs like the one for HTML, they wouldn't have to use as much bandwidth
17:45:16 <AnMaster> just a page describing in a way that is readable by humans
17:47:30 <AnMaster> ais523, though I actually thought about some automated system to generate skeletons. currently I got a crude shell script for it
17:47:41 <AnMaster> but that would be more or less cfunge specific
17:48:49 <AnMaster> it would contain something like: first name fingerprint name, second line "safe for sandbox" 1 or 0, third line short desc of fingerprint, 4th line, url for docs, the rest something like:
17:49:17 <AnMaster> and then it generates function names and fingerprint loading function
17:49:37 <AnMaster> currently you have to change function name manually and fill in the names in the loading routine
17:50:53 <AnMaster> see tools/gen_fingerprint.sh for the current one
17:51:35 <AnMaster> another use of this would be to autogenerate the list in manager.c
17:51:58 <AnMaster> probably autogenerate a file with just the array and then include that file
17:53:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw when I run cfunge under valgrind the slow HRTI test takes about 20 times as long when concurrency support is *disabled*
17:53:18 <AnMaster> I just don't get what is going on there
17:53:29 <AnMaster> it shouldn't be affected by concurrency at all
17:53:44 <AnMaster> and why slower when it is disabled
17:53:50 <AnMaster> without valgrind: about same speed
17:54:02 <AnMaster> and that. makes no sense. to me
17:56:46 <AnMaster> ais523, you got any idea about it?
17:57:27 <ais523> BTW, I can't get hold of the cfunge source, because the version of bzr in the Ubunutu 7.10 repositories is only 0.90, and I don't want to mess with newer repositories at the moment
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18:06:06 <AnMaster> ais523, out that they use a so outdated one
18:06:15 <AnMaster> considering they are the main developers of bzr
18:06:22 <ais523> yes, I noticed that too
18:06:50 <ais523> I haven't really had very good experiences with Ubuntu bug reports
18:06:51 <AnMaster> IMO bzr is one of the few good things that has come out of Ubuntu
18:07:05 <ais523> so nowadays I just report directly to Debian, who normally answer within 24 hours
18:07:21 <ais523> normally to say that I screwed up the patch I sent them again...
18:07:40 <ais523> for some reason, every patch I've sent to Debian has been missing, or misformatted, or had the wrong sort of newlines, or something like that
18:07:45 <ais523> and it's been my fault every time
18:07:59 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe try applying it before you send it
18:08:11 <ais523> AnMaster: the ironic thing is that it worked for me
18:08:23 <ais523> because I had corrected the newlines in the file I was patching against and forgotten about it
18:08:27 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe try on a copy of the clean debian sources?
18:08:40 <ais523> AnMaster: I may have to do that in future
18:09:15 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and line ending == LF for cfunge
18:09:29 <ais523> line ending ought to == 10 for C-INTERCAL too
18:09:34 <ais523> except for a few DOS-specific files
18:09:43 <ais523> I have a newline-fixing script that does that
18:09:51 <ais523> but forgot to include the file in question in the script
18:10:04 <AnMaster> I got a script that cleans up newlines, and trailing whitespaces
18:10:06 <ais523> (because it has to put the right sort of newlines on the right files)
18:10:14 <AnMaster> it also make sure the file just end in a *single* newline
18:10:25 <ais523> I get Emacs to higlight trailing whitespace for me, because occasionally it's relevant
18:10:30 <AnMaster> or at least should but I noted that is kind of not working since I upgraded ed
18:10:36 <AnMaster> it is a bash script that calls ed
18:10:50 <ais523> why not use sed, which was designed for that purpose?
18:11:02 <ais523> as in, being an ed-like language that can operate on streams
18:11:13 <AnMaster> ais523, because sed -i is non-standard
18:11:17 <ais523> and operate without manual intervention
18:11:33 <AnMaster> ais523, and ed can operate without manual intervention
18:11:46 <ais523> perl -i is standard, and sed can be compiled trivially into Perl
18:11:55 <ais523> in fact, the compiler distributes with Perl
18:12:41 <AnMaster> a default freebsd install doesn't have perl
18:13:07 <ais523> my DJGPP installation has Perl but not ed
18:16:25 <AnMaster> ais523, also making sed match on newlines is a PITA
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19:02:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I sent a mail to Chris now, http://rafb.net/p/JSiiZd29.html if you want to see it
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19:03:23 <AnMaster> ehird, you missied him with two minutes and 29 seconds
19:11:58 <lament> *ChordParser> parse parseChord "" "Am7"
19:11:59 <lament> Right (RootedChord A (fromList [0,4,7,9]))
19:11:59 <lament> *ChordParser> parse parseChord "" "C6"
19:12:00 <lament> Right (RootedChord C (fromList [0,4,7,9]))
19:13:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, What would k do in fingerprint instructions that do a "jump right away", like those from SUBR
19:13:33 <AnMaster> lament, yeah but I can't parse the result
19:14:02 <lament> AnMaster: the root notes are A and C and the pitches are exactly the same (as it happens)
19:14:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well say SUBR's "return from subroutine", what would happen if k iterates over it
19:14:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or what if k iterates on go to subroutine
19:14:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in the latter case it could make sense to execute it once
19:14:32 <Deewiant> i.e. it pops k times instead of once
19:24:42 <ehird> AnMaster: data Either a b = Left a | Right b
19:24:50 <ehird> common idiom: 'Left error', 'Right result'
19:24:53 <ehird> as in right, correct
19:29:31 <AnMaster> lament, well I can play it on the piano but I can't parse your output :P
19:30:02 <AnMaster> also I don't know if the chords have differen't names in English
19:31:03 <AnMaster> lament, could it parse say C/F
19:36:03 <lament> not yet C/F but i'm working on it
19:36:57 <lament> and other alterations (eg "C7-9#11/Bb")
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19:59:27 <ehird> lament: so you like haskell again ;)
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21:16:52 <lament> ehird: i always like haskell!
21:16:55 <lament> ehird: i just think it sucks.
21:17:44 <ehird> oklopol: okoko. oko, okoko. oko!
21:18:17 <ehird> oklopol: okokokokokoko
21:19:29 <lament> ehird: did robot9000 ever finish?
21:20:14 <ehird> lament: I killed it because I had to go.
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21:25:00 <Slereah> ``````````````okokokokokokoko converts to ``o`ko :o
21:29:36 <oklopol> well, you know, so is your mother
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21:41:46 * oerjan finds oko utterances surprisingly short for having such low entropy per character :D
21:43:30 * oerjan regrettably isn't fluent
21:43:48 <ehird> oerjan: OKOKO?! oko... okoko okokoko. okoko!
21:48:23 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko...
21:57:00 <lament> damn, chords are hard to parse
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22:01:15 <oklopol> lament: what exactly are ya parsing?
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22:19:20 <lament> oklopol: no, things like C7-9#11/Bb
22:19:36 <lament> (i'm not sure if that example is even correct)
22:22:54 <oklopol> forgot there actually was a standard representation
22:23:22 <oklopol> (needless to say i don't like it, i guess)
22:23:54 <oklopol> although, i just dislike it a little, it isn't entirely rotten
22:27:52 <lament> it's not entirely general
22:28:14 <lament> (classical doesn't use it since it's not specific enough about inversions)
22:28:26 <lament> but no music-related notation is entirely general
22:30:37 <lament> PCM does not notate music
22:31:36 <GregorR> That's like saying "the alphabet doesn't notate words, it notates sounds"
22:33:49 * pikhq knows of another general music-related notation.
22:34:01 <pikhq> If you want to be even more insane, Base-64 FLAC.
22:34:25 * pikhq would like to shake the hand of anyone who can read that
22:35:59 <lament> GregorR: the alphabet does notate words. But it does not notate novels.
22:44:16 <pikhq> By the same notion, music notation notates notes, but not music.
22:46:38 <lament> the alphabet notates words, which notate novels.
22:46:52 <lament> music notation notates notes, which notate music
22:47:19 <Slereah> NOTE NOTE NOTE NOTE NOTE NOTE NOTE NOTE NOTE
22:47:22 <lament> note that you don't need the alphabet to notate novels - for example, you can read a novel aloud
22:47:37 <lament> in which case the novel is still notated by words, but now the words are notated by sounds
22:47:38 <pikhq> lament: So, a novel is notated in words.
22:47:46 <pikhq> And there are multiple notations *for* words.
22:47:52 <pikhq> Yes, but I was typing it before you hit enter.
22:48:09 <GregorR> And PCM notates sounds which notate music BIACH
22:48:25 <lament> sounds don't notate music
22:48:58 <GregorR> In the same way that words can notate novels, or hamster power amalgamation introspective for.
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22:49:01 <lament> i'd rather say music notates sounds :)
22:49:11 <pikhq> Actually, sounds can notate notes which can notate music. ;)
22:49:30 <lament> pikhq: not really, sounds don't notate notes
22:49:45 <pikhq> Tell that to someone with perfect pitch.
22:49:46 <lament> given a sound, it takes human intelligence to extract "notes" from it, and even then not precisely
22:49:50 <lament> that's hardly "notation"
22:50:11 <pikhq> Given a sound, it takes human intelligence to extract 'words' from it, and even then not precisely.
22:50:16 <pikhq> That's hardly "notation".
22:51:01 <lament> at least most people who speak the language are capable of hearing all the words
22:51:09 <lament> try hearing all the notes in a symphony
22:51:17 <lament> i can't do it, and you probably can't either
22:51:40 <lament> computers can sort of do speech recognition
22:51:50 <oerjan> we shall have to clone Mozart for that
22:51:52 <lament> but they're far from being able to write down music
22:52:03 <pikhq> A symphony is like having several dozen people talking at the same time.
22:52:13 <pikhq> Computers can't do speech recognition in that environment, either.
22:52:24 <lament> if you notate the same music on a page, it's very simple
22:53:08 <pikhq> Given a piece of music with just a melody, and no harmony, it's much easier to write the notes. Notes have well-defined pitches. ;)
22:53:31 <lament> notes don't have well-defined pitches - consider bends, slides, vibrato
22:53:43 <lament> very easy to notate on paper, very hard to get back the note from the sound
22:54:01 <pikhq> The note itself has well-defined pitches. Those are more than just notes being notated there. ;)
22:54:03 <lament> strong vibrato on violin can span more than a semitone
22:54:12 <lament> is that one note, or several notes?
22:54:26 <pikhq> That's a matter of notation.
22:54:38 <pikhq> Take an arbitrary word. What are the phonemes in there?
22:54:51 <lament> it's exactly a matter of notation
22:54:56 <lament> we use notes to notate it
22:55:07 <lament> sound is what we're notating, ultimately
22:55:11 <lament> music is notation for sound
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22:55:20 <pikhq> Then it's imperfect notation.
22:55:22 <lament> (and not the other way around)
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22:56:09 <pikhq> How would one write down, say, me being *exactly* 1 Hz off from a note when singing? (not that I can do that (intentionally) :p)
22:56:38 <lament> pikhq: you use appropriate notation
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22:56:54 <lament> in common practice period music, you being 1 hz off is not important or interesting
22:56:59 <lament> so it doesn't have ways to notate that
22:57:45 <pikhq> I suppose one could also argue that *the alphabet* is a notation for sounds.
22:58:09 <pikhq> (an obviously imperfect one; most human writing systems don't include pitches in the written language)
22:58:36 <lament> whether the alphabet is or isn't a notation for sounds depends on the language
22:58:52 <lament> in any case, it's a notation for _phonemes_
22:58:54 <pikhq> I assume a spoken language.
22:59:00 <lament> which are a notation for sound
22:59:13 <pikhq> Not all human writing systems are a notation for phonemes.
22:59:38 <pikhq> But, anyways, that's not the point.
22:59:52 <pikhq> And I'm not sure what the point *is*.
23:00:12 <lament> which human writing systems are not a notation for phonemes?
23:00:37 <pikhq> Chinese, Japanese kanji. . .
23:01:15 <lament> each chinese character notates one phoneme
23:01:32 <lament> sorry, one syllable, several phonemes
23:01:46 <pikhq> Japanese kanji have multiple readings.
23:02:15 <oerjan> even english has homonyms
23:02:16 <lament> pikhq: sure, but that's not really a problem - english "wind" has several readings too
23:02:32 <ehird> oerjan: they were considered inferior to heteronyms a while back though
23:03:02 <pikhq> Japanese kanji are used for meaning, not reading (usually).
23:03:42 <lament> pikhq: that's true of english words as well.
23:04:37 * pikhq hands lament his Japanese homework
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23:05:09 <pikhq> Tell me that that list of 5 *completely* different readings imply that each character notates one syllable.
23:06:03 <pikhq> (a hint: unless you're dealing with man'yougana, they don't.)
23:08:23 <pikhq> (of course, Japanese deals in mora, not syllables, anyways)
23:14:48 <ehird> 'And with that, the channel died.'
23:28:00 <ehird> all irc channels should have a bot which pipes fortune(1) to the channel if it dies for too long
23:29:53 <ehird> actually, `fortune -a`
23:35:11 <pikhq> GregorR: Patch to Egobot?
23:36:16 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: Thinkgeek f***'d up the T-shirt!
23:36:27 <GregorR> s/Thinkgeek/Cafepress/ >_O
23:36:43 <ehird> pikhq: I could do that if GregorR would put it up <.<
23:37:30 <ehird> But I don't want to run an EgoBot clone.
23:37:33 <ehird> Since the ! would clash.
23:37:40 <ehird> And having it duplicate everything is pointless.
23:37:48 <ehird> So I'd only patch it if GregorR would put it up.
23:37:52 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: A bit tough to explain, I'll send you a photo once I send it to CafePress.
23:38:43 <ehird> actually, if EgoBot is ever rewritten
23:38:45 <ehird> it should be called
23:38:58 <ehird> EgoBot Generation O Replacement
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23:40:24 <pikhq> Just write the patch and hand it to Gregor.
23:40:32 <pikhq> And I like that name.
23:42:34 <ehird> Oh alright, I will.
23:42:41 <ehird> It's in the file archives, right?
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23:48:01 <ehird> It occurs to me that I don't know the C function to get the current unix timestamp.
23:48:27 -!- Parma-Quendion has changed nick to Quendus.
23:48:46 <ehird> time_t is a numeric
23:49:00 <GregorR> RodgerTheGreat: Email addy (to send the picture to)?
23:52:24 <pikhq> Typically a signed int.
23:52:45 <ehird> pikhq: Mm. And unfortunately, I am going to have to use pthreads to do this in a sane way.
23:52:57 <ehird> And one global. But the code should stay clean.
23:53:36 <ehird> I don't THINK C++ has threads in its stdlib.
23:57:21 <ehird> This will count privmsg's to the bot as messages.
23:57:27 <ehird> But I don't think that'll really be a problem.
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23:59:23 <ehird> GregorR: EgoBot question..
23:59:33 <ehird> I can use its daemon mechanism to spawn a long-running program, right?
23:59:41 <ehird> And its stdout will be piped to the channel