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01:16:59 <Deformative> Also oklofok, GregorR made a neat tool called Dsss.
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08:16:09 <oklofok> Deformative: GregorR made a great tool for installing D on windows?
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08:16:55 <oklofok> anyway, i installed dmd, gdc and mingw
08:17:05 <oklofok> but apparently failed @ it :)
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11:14:14 <oklofok> no no, that was not what i was going to paste
11:14:28 <oklofok> gdc: installation problem, cannot exec 'as': No such file or directory
11:14:50 <oklofok> i just got a zip and unzipped it.
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17:03:41 <ais523> activate your PerlNomic proposals, they're both passing right now
17:03:48 <ais523> and sorry for not commenting out the debug code...
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17:06:36 <ehird> you know what sucks?
17:07:01 <ais523> but you still haven't activated those proposals
17:07:03 <ehird> the last thing I heard was, er, myself
17:07:10 <ehird> ais523: understandable, I just got on
17:07:20 <ais523> [17:05] <ais523> hello ehird
17:07:20 <ais523> [17:05] <ais523> activate your PerlNomic proposals, they're both passing right now
17:07:20 <ais523> [17:05] <ais523> and sorry for not commenting out the debug code...
17:07:32 <ais523> I said all of those well before you left
17:07:43 <ais523> so presumably you were missing messages for a while before you quit
17:08:10 <ehird> You bit comex for 3 points. You notice a red aura blinking around you.
17:08:22 <ehird> no, I am not grateful for the points he gave me :3
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20:17:52 <ais523> Deformative: diving into tarpits is rarely a good idea
20:18:47 <ais523> which tarpit in particular?
20:19:14 <ais523> hmm... there's more than one Turing tarpit, I think
20:19:55 <ehird> Deformative: he knows what a turing tarpit is.
20:21:15 <ais523> "Shouldn't UnLambdaLanguage and its ilk instead be called a ChurchQuagmire?"
20:21:42 <ehird> I love wikiwikiweb
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20:36:51 <Slereah_> "One (semi-) popular kind of TuringTarpit are the EsotericProgrammingLanguages, which are often designed as a kind of twisted exercise in humor."
20:37:03 <Slereah_> Aren't all turing tarpits esoteric languages in a way?
20:37:21 <ais523> lambda calculus isn't an esolang, generally speaking
20:39:51 <ais523> hmm... are Lisp/Scheme tarpits?
20:40:26 <Slereah_> The original LISP is a tarpit.
20:40:38 <Slereah_> Or a Church Quagmire, if you will.
20:40:55 <Slereah_> It was function definition + six functions + 3 constants.
20:41:16 <ais523> LISP isn't normally considered an esolang
20:41:40 <ais523> likewise, P'' isn't, but then Brainfuck, which is less of a tarpit, is
20:41:41 <Slereah_> Actual Lisp is full of stuff that makes it usable and not terribly insane.
20:42:01 <Slereah_> What's the definition of an esolang then?
20:42:14 <ais523> I've been wondering about that myself
20:42:31 <ais523> BANCStar was considered to not be an esolang because it was used commercially
20:42:31 <Slereah_> Why does it say that INTERCAL is not minimalistic?
20:42:36 <ais523> Slereah_: because it isn't
20:42:55 <Slereah_> It might not be the most minimalistic languages there is, but it has like less than 20 instructions, I think
20:42:57 <ais523> it has lots of commands and more operators than it needs
20:43:32 <ais523> INTERCAL-72 had ABSTAIN/REINSTATE/IGNORE/REMEMBER and arrays
20:43:38 <ais523> none of which are needed for TCness
20:43:52 <ais523> modern INTERCAL doesn't even need variables for TCness
20:45:34 <psygnisfive> Original Lisp had not variables and was TC.
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20:46:07 <psygnisfive> original lisp had only like 7 instructions and thats _it_
20:46:24 <psygnisfive> which i so makes it a .. friendly esolang? :P
20:47:08 <Slereah_> [21:44:20] <Slereah_> But well, plenty of tarpits have instructions that could be disposed off, though
20:47:08 <Slereah_> [21:44:48] <Slereah_> You can reduce Brainfuck to 3 instructions and Unlambda to two functions.
20:47:24 <ais523> Slereah_: which 3 instructions?
20:47:52 <ais523> ah, I thought the ones on the wiki didn't work
20:47:53 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_instruction_minimalization
20:48:43 <Slereah_> Well, Bitchanger works, that I know
20:48:59 <Slereah_> I never tried anything more reduced
20:49:18 <Slereah_> But without IO, Bitchanger is already 4 instructions.
20:49:53 <Slereah_> I do not know where Feydeau is.
20:52:56 <Slereah_> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?FunctionalWeenie
20:53:27 <Slereah_> "Most Lispers happily indulge in unclean things such as side effects, for instance."
20:53:54 <psygnisfive> haskell has no side effects except the IO junk
20:54:03 <ais523> psygnisfive: even that isn't a side effect
20:54:09 <ehird> psygnisfive: haskell has no side effects
20:54:11 <ehird> it is purely functional
20:54:18 <ais523> the external world gets dragged through the program inside a monad
20:54:29 <ehird> they consider it over-used because it conquers laziness
20:54:32 <ehird> but its not a side effect.
20:54:41 <Slereah_> I don't want to get dragged inside a monad.
20:54:52 <ais523> well, arguably unsafePerformIO has a side-effect
20:54:58 <psygnisfive> ehird: cale disagrees with you and says IO is side effects
20:55:02 <ais523> of generating another RealWorld to perform IO on
20:55:13 <psygnisfive> so atleast one haskeller considers IO side effects
20:55:16 <ehird> psygnisfive: it is a side effect
20:55:20 <ehird> but its not a side effect in haskell
20:55:27 <ehird> and, FWIW, I am a haskeller
20:55:52 <ais523> oh, Feather has no side effects either
20:56:10 <ais523> you have to send messages out of the program to do output, and receive them from outside to do input
20:56:26 <ais523> the outside the program is actually inside the program, but you can't see how it's implemented
20:56:31 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/music/alien-nocturne-2.ogg
20:56:35 <Slereah_> "Don't think of Indian food when someone says "curry". Don't think of religion when someone says "church"."
20:57:21 <psygnisfive> fuck you slereah. fuck you for reminding me of the wonders of indian cuisine.
20:57:50 <ais523> ah, I transcoded my hello-world-in-Fugue into .ogg
20:57:51 <ehird> Slereah_: yes you are
20:57:58 <ais523> so people here can actually hear it
20:58:30 <ehird> ais523: what, in channel?
20:58:36 <ais523> ehird: how, it's a soundfile
20:58:41 <ais523> in a pastebin, of course
20:58:49 <ehird> ais523: I meant literally
20:59:46 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/jgsege/hworld.ogg
21:00:30 <ais523> there's something wrong with the volume when I try to stream it
21:02:20 <ehird> psygnisfive: a hello world program
21:02:30 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fugue
21:02:42 <ais523> it was the second program ever written, I think
21:02:45 <ais523> and I wrote the first one too
21:02:49 <Slereah_> "Unlambda enables (read: forces) the developer to write programs using the EssAndKayCombinators."
21:03:21 <Slereah_> ais523 is the mozart of esolangs.
21:03:52 <ais523> well, apart from me totally messing up the volume, the music's alright
21:04:02 <ais523> but a bit mechanical and it jumps around a bit for no obvious reason
21:04:14 <psygnisfive> can Fugue run any musical piece, or just a limited subset?
21:04:21 <ehird> HAHAHAHAA godhatesfags.com went web 2.0
21:04:22 <ehird> http://www.godhatesfags.com/
21:04:29 <ehird> its a flash-based site
21:04:31 <ais523> I think it has to be score-readable
21:04:38 <ais523> so it would be the set of music that doesn't use percussion
21:04:46 <ais523> also you have to be able to tell one voice from another
21:04:52 <ehird> some fags may still be present
21:04:59 <ehird> please see us through our technical difficulties
21:05:10 <ais523> also, some music may not balance loops correctly
21:05:24 <psygnisfive> ais: have you ever tried running some bach stuff through it?
21:05:44 <ais523> I didn't have a compiler, you see
21:05:59 <ais523> someone else wrote a compiler, but as it outputs machine code I've never dared use it
21:06:09 <ais523> it's lament's language, I think
21:06:12 <ehird> psygnisfive: (yes, ais523 is always like this)
21:06:37 <psygnisfive> it'd be interesting to run bach's stuff through it.
21:06:53 <ais523> most likely there'd be an unbalanced loop somewhere, or an infinite loop near the start
21:06:56 <ais523> psygnisfive: yes, several times
21:07:06 <ehird> but its pseudo-scientific
21:07:27 <psygnisfive> im only up to like, 1/3 of the way through, so i cant judge the rest
21:07:34 <psygnisfive> but so far is just all formal systems stuff.
21:07:42 <ehird> yeah, it gets more pseudo- near the end
21:07:45 <ehird> he's a clever guy for sure
21:07:51 <ehird> his theories of the mind just aren't spot on.
21:08:07 <ais523> the mathematical content is all good, though
21:08:18 <ais523> and the dialogues are excellent
21:08:32 <ehird> ais523: the last dialogue BLEW MY MIND
21:08:37 <ehird> it was on the FLOOR at the end
21:09:08 <ais523> the one with six voices
21:09:11 <psygnisfive> if anyone wants Art of the Fugue, i have part of it performed in saxophone. its pretty damn good.
21:09:23 <ais523> you'd need it in MIDI to run it through a Fugue compiler
21:09:33 <ais523> unless you expected the compiler to be good at aural dictation
21:09:45 <ehird> psygnisfive: of course
21:09:48 <ehird> how can it compile regular audio
21:09:52 <ehird> it needs the instruments
21:09:54 <psygnisfive> well, i dont mean to run it through a compiler
21:10:10 <ehird> psygnisfive: anyway, the last dialogue involves people swapping in and out of computers (or rather switching realities involving them)
21:10:16 <ehird> and the author telling the characters that they are characters
21:10:21 <ehird> and them denying it
21:10:44 <psygnisfive> one of my pet ideas about how Battlestar Galactica will resolve itself
21:10:54 <ais523> Person A programs an AI program Person B. They go into separate rooms to do a Turing Test. When it ends, Person B comes back into the room and Person A is the AI on the computer.
21:10:54 <psygnisfive> is the characters finding out that God/The Gods
21:12:09 <psygnisfive> wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Art%20of%20the%20Fugue%20(sax).mp3
21:12:39 <psygnisfive> how awesome would it be if running Bach's fugues in Fugue actually did something cool
21:12:54 <psygnisfive> lol. like, they were the only possible quines :O
21:13:06 <ais523> is that even possible in a TC language?
21:13:20 <ais523> and Fugue reads/writes ASCII, not music
21:13:33 <ehird> if (prog in bach_fuges) { print prog; } else { ... }
21:13:42 <ais523> yes, I know it is, it was me who came up with that example originally, I think
21:13:57 <Slereah_> Well, it could write music in ASCII.
21:13:59 <ais523> just being slightly slow today
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21:16:45 <ais523> BF is probably the most-discussed esolang
21:16:53 <ais523> not sure whether it or INTERCAL is better known
21:17:10 <ais523> BF is certainly more implemented
21:17:14 <ehird> ais523: BF is more known
21:17:15 <ais523> because it's a lot easier to implement
21:17:21 <ehird> because random people who know VB joke about BF
21:17:25 <ehird> and implement crappy versions of it
21:17:29 <ehird> and say how it took them a week
21:17:35 <ehird> (I have first hand experience of this)
21:17:36 <ehird> Slereah_: visual basic
21:17:38 <ais523> that doesn't mean I use it, though
21:17:55 <Slereah_> Wouldn't it be more like an hour?
21:18:01 <ais523> VB seems a common language for people who are bad at programming to brag about
21:18:33 <Slereah_> I mean, a week is roughly what I did for the BF on the Turing machine, and that's counting the part I did on paper.
21:18:49 <psygnisfive> does thue allow more than one start string
21:18:53 <ais523> well, something hard like BF on the 2,3 would take a while
21:19:10 <Slereah_> Anything on 2,3 would take a while.
21:19:24 <ais523> especially as the resulting program is infinitely long
21:19:35 <Slereah_> Well, so's a Turing machine, technically.
21:19:45 <Slereah_> Unless you throw in a halt state.
21:19:55 <ais523> the 2,3 doesn't have a halt state
21:20:04 <ais523> although you can run it on a half-tape, with falling off the end=halt
21:20:32 <ais523> it took a while to prove that
21:20:39 <ais523> but I have the proof in the draft version of my paper
21:20:45 <psygnisfive> i enjoy the fact that thue is just a post production system.
21:20:50 <ais523> only if you cut off the left half of the tape, though
21:21:07 <ais523> if you cut off the right half, it seems to me a lot less likely that you'd end up with something TC
21:21:28 <Slereah_> Would Turing rise from his grave if I cut off the right part?
21:21:47 <ais523> removing features from a language at random quite often destroys TC-ness
21:23:13 <Slereah_> But I suppose that, technically, there's a twin of the 2,3 machine, with directions reversed, such that right-cut would still be TC.
21:23:19 <ehird> ais523 is too clever :(
21:23:32 <ais523> that was yes to Slereah_, by the way
21:24:00 <Slereah_> And it is quite awesome that you are here.
21:24:31 <ais523> hey, #esoteric is how I found out about the 2,3 machine in the first place
21:24:34 <ais523> someone put it in the topic
21:25:22 <Slereah_> How did you discover esoteric then?
21:25:25 <ehird> unfortunately, lament only takes thanks in the form of gay sex.
21:25:48 <ais523> via the 99bob website, originally
21:25:49 <Slereah_> I'll give lament many thanks then.
21:25:57 <ais523> then I ended up here looking up INTERCAL
21:26:11 <ais523> strangely, I found Wikipedia the same way
21:26:36 <ais523> strange because finding Wikipedia should not normally be considered a particularly difficult task
21:26:57 <Slereah_> I wonder if anyone ever discovered the esolangs through anything else than INTERCAL/Brainfuck
21:27:14 <ehird> ais523: I tried to find the wikipedia the toher day
21:27:17 <ehird> whenever I got close it ran away :\
21:27:27 <ais523> ehird: which Wikipedia? there's more than 1
21:27:40 <Slereah_> "Haigaiz so I herd u talk about bitXtreme here"
21:27:47 <ehird> ais523: The wiki! Duh.
21:27:50 <ehird> I was searching for it on the google
21:27:56 <ais523> English Wikipedia, presumably
21:28:15 <ehird> ais523: The google has nothing about it.
21:28:21 <ehird> I even typed THEGOOGLE into a word document
21:28:34 <ais523> ah, that's where you went wrong
21:28:39 <ais523> you see, THEGOOGLE is actually 2 words
21:28:43 <ais523> therefore Word can't handle it
21:28:51 <ais523> just removing the space isn't enough to fool it
21:29:11 <ehird> should I plug in the computer
21:29:44 <ais523> oh dear, we're in another of those surreal #esoteric conversations again
21:30:17 <Slereah_> THE CAKE HAS BEEN KIDNAPPED BY NINJAS!
21:30:41 <ais523> oh, I thought you were going to spontaneously create another IRP text adventure
21:31:03 <ehird> no, do it Slereah_!
21:31:06 <ais523> we were discussing Fugue
21:31:16 <ehird> Slereah_: idea - fgsfds
21:31:18 <ais523> I posted a .ogg version of my hello, world program
21:31:24 <Slereah_> The subject of thanking you via penises also came up, lament.
21:31:43 -!- lament has set topic: (:NAME "#ethoteric" :TYPE (INTERNATIONAL-HUB (PROGRAMMING-LANGUAGETH ETHOTERIC)) :LOGTH "http://tuneth.org/~nef/logth/ethoteric") -- BUT CLICK HERE FOR LINK IF YOUR BROWTHER DITHLIKETH LITHP! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric.
21:32:09 <lament> yes, i prefer to be thanked in hard currency
21:32:45 <ais523> there's an esolang called LITHP, isn't there
21:32:47 <lament> (or is it spelled prothethhor?)
21:32:53 <ehird> ais523: no, a Lesser Known Language
21:32:53 <ais523> ah, it was one of the lesser-known programming languages
21:33:05 <ais523> some of which have since been created
21:33:16 <Slereah_> I have an idea for an esolang called Limp.
21:33:47 <Slereah_> "This otherwise unremarkable language is distinguished by the absence of an "s" in its character set. Programmers and users must substitute "TH". LITHP is said to be useful in prothething lithtth."
21:35:14 <ais523> shouldn't that be "ith thaid"?
21:35:32 <Slereah_> That would just be silly, ais523.
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21:38:26 * oerjan wonders where that "would just be silly" meme comes from
21:39:39 <Slereah_> I think it's in a Flying Circus or something similar.
21:39:47 <oerjan> that would certainly fit
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21:44:42 <ais523> yes, it is a meme, I think
21:44:46 <ais523> at least, I recognised it
21:44:55 <ais523> but I'm not sure where
21:45:23 <Slereah_> This would be a meme, for instance : http://macrochan.org/source/R/A/RAU26W67JPBTTEQYFJ4JSL6OG53QKOW4.jpeg
21:45:30 <Slereah_> It just happens to be in my firefox.
21:45:49 <ais523> maybe it's a failed meme
21:45:54 <ais523> just like you get genes that die out
21:46:00 <ais523> it's a potential meme that never caught on
21:46:30 <ehird> ais523: I think you are referring to the entities known as "4chan posts".
21:46:31 <Slereah_> Memes don't die out easily on the internet.
21:46:43 <ais523> Slereah_: the ones you've heard of, yes
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22:53:23 <ais523> I've never understood it or even known what it is
22:53:29 <ais523> despite being on the receiving end of it a couple of times
22:53:31 <ehird> ais523: 'i herd u liek mudkipz'
22:53:36 <ehird> or some other *chan
22:53:38 <ehird> well, no, it's not
22:53:40 <ais523> how did it come about?
22:53:43 <ehird> the originator was somewhere else
22:53:47 <ais523> at least all-your-base has an interesting history
22:53:47 <ehird> but then someone morphed it on a *chan
22:53:57 <ehird> ais523: AYB is not a *chan meme
22:54:24 <ais523> and besides, sentences like "Somebody set us up the bomb." are just great
22:54:25 <ehird> ais523: http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/So_i_herd_u_liek_mudkip may or may not have details (Since it's Encyclopedia Dramatica, guaranteed to be NSFW)
22:54:28 <ais523> whereas the mudkips thing is just pointless
22:54:48 <ehird> ais523: Something Awful
22:54:50 <Slereah> Which is pretty much the same culture
22:54:54 <ais523> it's a meme everywhere, I think
22:54:56 <ehird> originator of :psyduck:
22:55:01 <ehird> yes but it came from SA
22:55:08 <ais523> actually it came from a computer game
22:55:13 <ais523> with possibly the worst translation ever
22:55:16 <ehird> Slereah: not the same culture, really
22:55:27 <Slereah> Also, mudkips are just adorable
22:55:42 <Slereah> 4chan was actually an offshoot of SA
22:55:54 <ehird> but SA is slightly less depraved
22:56:41 <Slereah> I really loved the "send a million bee to Africa" one.
22:57:46 <ais523> ah, it seems jay's active again over at PerlNomic
22:57:53 <ais523> maybe the PNP will end up doing a lot more votes now
22:58:31 <AnMaster> ais523, ehird: a quick google shows "mudkip" is some pokemon thingy
22:58:41 <ais523> yes, I know mudkip's a Pokemon
22:58:44 <ais523> but why that one in particular?
22:58:47 <ais523> there are over 350 of them
22:58:52 <ehird> ais523: there was a real source to it
22:58:56 <ehird> before the copypasta
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22:58:58 <ehird> alas I cannot find it
22:59:13 <ehird> i.e. a source not intentionally made for a meme
22:59:43 <Slereah> It was some sort of fellow declaring (on DA?) his love for mudkips or something
23:00:10 <ehird> something like that
23:00:17 <ehird> in a very creepy way, presumably
23:00:23 <ehird> likely involving plushies
23:00:26 <ehird> (from what I can remember.)
23:01:30 <Slereah> Dramatisation : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers3/1210089733555.png
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23:02:00 <ehird> and vaguely disturbing
23:03:27 <Slereah> Plus, there's actually a bunch of pokemons that made it to memes.
23:04:03 <Slereah> "Spawned from a DeviantArt comment inviting someone to their Pokmon group, the comment basically used the person's apparent like of Mudkips to perhaps entice the user to join their group. Whether or not said person actually joined is unknown."
23:04:21 <ais523> HTF did it get involved in a meme?
23:04:45 <Slereah> From the cesspool that is /v/, from what I can remember.
23:05:31 <ehird> ais523: SEAKING FUCK YEAH
23:05:54 <ehird> ais523: FUCK YEAH.
23:06:05 <ehird> a forced meme, apparently
23:06:29 <Slereah> "forced meme" is just a way to say that it isn't unanymous.
23:06:50 <ais523> what does it mean for a meme to be unanimous anyway?
23:06:52 <Slereah> If it's still recognized as a meme, you can be sure there's still hundred of people using it as one.
23:06:53 <oklopol> that hello world sounds quite nice
23:07:07 <oklopol> but it is pretty random still
23:07:08 <ehird> ais523: no /b/tards complained about it.
23:07:12 <ehird> so, admittedly, every meme is forced.
23:07:30 <ais523> oklopol: I like bits of it individually, but it sounds like a bit of a mess when they're all combined
23:08:39 <oklopol> i feel like trying to make it saner
23:13:07 <oklopol> hmm, one way is to cheat and jump up and down all the time to get the sane
23:13:19 <oklopol> because intervals > 6th are nope
23:14:11 <oklopol> i'm assuming different voices are... like different instruments?
23:19:47 <oklopol> also there you can use any lengths for the notes
23:19:58 <oklopol> shouldn't be too hard to do pretty much anything
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23:25:42 <oklopol> the 2L hello world is so beautiful i could cry
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23:26:54 <ais523> does perlnomic have that
23:27:03 <ais523> it's worth checking whenever you try to use a new module?
23:27:09 <ais523> also, I'd better check if I have that
23:27:27 <ehird> ais523: presumably
23:27:31 <ehird> if it uses Time::localtime
23:27:58 <ehird> DB<5> print localtime(0)->year;
23:28:03 <ais523> so you won't be able to test if you use it
23:28:21 <ais523> year = years since 1900, incidentally
23:28:34 <ais523> that's why Perl webapps sometimes write the year as 19108
23:28:37 <ehird> ais523: move draft in plz
23:29:08 <ehird> ais523: lololololo 500
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23:29:35 <ais523> sorry, permission fault
23:29:40 <ais523> I accidentally wrote mv rather than cp
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23:29:53 <ehird> but no hibernate line?
23:30:10 <ehird> p(strong('Last move/bite:'), format_time($move_time));
23:30:10 <ehird> p(strong('Last hibernate:'), format_time($hibernate_time));
23:30:33 <ais523> I can't spot the problem there
23:30:56 <ais523> what change is needed?
23:31:08 <ehird> ais523: it's at the end of the line
23:31:15 <ehird> and the indentation may fool you
23:31:23 <ehird> it's like something the UCC would contain
23:31:26 <ais523> ah, putting it in the print command
23:31:38 <ais523> hang on, how did this conversation end up in #esoteric
23:31:45 <ais523> ehird: I noticed that in context, but not from your snippet
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