00:06:45 -!- ihope_ has joined. 00:06:53 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 00:10:13 Hi, RodgerTheGreat. 00:10:19 hey 00:10:21 Everyone else is denied my hello today. 00:10:23 'sup? 00:10:26 Not much. 00:10:35 any particular reason I have been chosen? 00:11:47 I thought it somewhat appropriate because--hey, does this sketch indicate that Dr. T has a device for using his cute little tyrannosaurus arms more like human hands? 00:12:16 yes 00:12:32 having two claws is rather limiting for tasks involving fine manipulation 00:12:45 Indeed. 00:13:22 Does it have a cute little AI to do with it, rather than somehow being fully controlled by only however many degrees of freedom two claws gives? 00:13:47 I don't go into detail. I was thinking neural interface 00:14:00 Mm. 00:14:11 he's Dr. Tyrannosaurus, not Doc Oc. 00:14:46 :-) 00:15:27 bbiab 00:15:39 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:31:52 I wonder 00:32:02 Why is lambda calcul named thusly? 00:32:13 I can see the pi <-> processus, but why lambda? 00:33:36 -!- edwardk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:33:41 Maybe when Church invented it, he decided to use a lambda to denote a function, then he named the thing after it. Or some other such, I guess. 00:35:00 Lambda seems like an odd choice, though 00:35:06 he liked sheep? 00:35:21 "so what did you name that construct of yours?" "lamb, duh." 00:35:22 What would be a better choice? 00:35:22 He wasn't German or anything, so what could it mean in English? 00:35:31 Firefox 3 was mentioned on the Cobert Report on Tuesday 00:35:59 i'd go with my explanation, it makes so much sense i could swallow it whole. 00:36:12 I dunno, since I don't know what it stands for 00:37:04 S:"explain X" o:"explains X..." S:"i don't know if that's right because i don't know what's right" 00:37:08 man, you can't question everything 00:37:15 some things, you just have to accept. 00:37:40 like peanuts, the existance of god, and the sheep fetish church had 00:38:00 But Church wasn't sexy, so it doesn't fit in my head 00:38:03 I cannot picture it 00:38:07 I do not want to. 00:42:18 well that's just silly 00:42:24 now you're just being silly 00:42:27 sillydoodles. 00:44:04 Nothing in the original article :o 00:44:16 Let's invoke the spirit of Alonzo Caspip. 00:59:54 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 01:03:53 So in pi calculus, threads send channels to each other via channels? 01:06:12 Well, it's a way to see it. 01:06:40 You can also throw the semantics away and just keep the name transfering. 01:07:53 Or you can use biscuit trucks. 01:07:55 Somehow. 01:07:59 tusho left? 01:08:01 :( 01:08:11 anyway I made an ebuild for C-INTERCAL 01:08:55 night 01:09:50 Bai. 01:10:16 Problem with the names is, I don't have an easy way to mix the names and the functions. 01:12:14 Slereah: eagerly waiting for limp 01:12:32 Don't be too eager. 01:12:43 I don't have much clue of how to deal with pi in scheme. 01:12:48 don't you tell me what not to be too. 01:15:44 I'm not too sure what language to use. 01:16:08 It would probably be easier in Python, since it has lambdas, function definition and is imperative. 01:17:39 Although maybe slow. 01:26:08 how slow? 01:27:18 I dunno. 01:27:28 Python is usually quite slow when I make it do huge things. 01:27:43 And from what I saw, it doesn't fare well in performance tests. 01:29:16 Any critics on the language so far? 01:42:03 Hulo? 01:47:41 so oklofok 01:47:48 how has reactance changed? 01:47:48 :P 01:48:04 augur: i can show you logs tomorrow 01:48:07 now sleep -> 01:48:14 just off the top of your head 01:48:19 what do you think has changed? 02:02:12 People of Esoteria 02:02:59 Do you think I need a particular way to differentiate strings (ie : list of numbers) from names in limp? 02:03:10 Or do I just try to let the context do it? 02:40:19 strings vs names?? 02:40:25 whats the supposed difference? 02:40:41 Well, the I/O works with strings. 02:40:49 ok 02:40:56 Actually, they are lists of numbers, for the functional part. 02:41:02 whar? 02:41:23 and actually, they're not really lists. They're consed together like a conga line (there's no null type) 02:41:42 oookay 02:42:00 On the other hand, the pi part uses names. 02:42:08 oh i see, you're doing pi calculus 02:42:13 nevermind, i have nothing to contribute 02:42:17 Oh 03:00:26 Haskell doesn't have any non-deterministic bits, does it? 03:00:55 Well, apart from any undefined behavior it may have. 03:01:22 Well, I'm sure it has some random number liberries 03:04:25 Yes, but saying "flip a coin" is not the same as saying "pick one". 03:05:27 Well, he could pick the one on the left if it's head. 03:06:45 Choosing "left if it's heads, right if it's tails" isn't really a choice at all, as "right if it's heads, left if it's tails" produces exactly the same result. 03:08:00 Then on what criterias do you chose? 03:08:08 And how is that non-determinism? 03:09:06 For some reason, I have the Meow Mix song on my MP3 player, and never knew about it. 03:20:28 Well, if I have a programming language with a function pick(a,b) that returns either a or b, a compiler might always return a, or always b, or whichever's smaller, or whichever looks more like a giraffe in its opinion. 03:20:41 Whichever, in the compiler's opinion, is best. 03:21:12 Oh. 03:21:21 Well, wouldn't that depend on the compiler? 03:21:26 Yes. 03:21:37 Then why ask about Huskoll? 03:22:55 Plus Hoskoll is horrible :o 03:22:58 Huskoll? 03:23:01 Hoskoll? 03:23:18 Hoskoll. 03:23:29 It's derived from Losp. 03:23:30 Why should Haskell not have nondeterministic stuff, if that's what you're asking? 03:23:52 I'm asking that if it depends on the compiler, why ask about the language. 03:24:10 The language is what specifies what the compiler's allowed to do. 03:24:25 If the compiler is given freedom, that's nondeterminism of a sort. 03:24:30 Oh. 03:24:36 Well I have no idea. 03:28:12 Ask #haskell mehbe? 03:29:28 http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/bugs-and-infelicities.html 03:29:37 "13.1.2. GHC's interpretation of undefined behaviour in Haskell 98" 03:29:41 Thar? 04:23:03 -!- GregorR has changed nick to GregorR[Prague]. 04:51:45 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:56:08 -!- augur has changed nick to psygnisfive. 05:08:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:11:52 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:12:10 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 05:22:06 -!- Slereah has joined. 05:22:12 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:23:54 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:33:38 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme 05:33:40 Meh. 05:35:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 05:38:02 Hello guy. 05:38:24 hi 05:38:48 How's it going? 05:39:03 alright, yourself? 05:39:38 Just dandy. 05:39:47 Almost finished the specs of my new language. 05:40:10 cool, can i see? 05:40:57 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Slereah/Limp 05:49:39 Still need to clean up the page, though 05:50:10 looks good 05:50:33 Thanks. 05:50:37 Any critics? 05:50:45 nope 05:53:12 -!- kwertii has joined. 06:11:06 -!- cherez1 has joined. 06:11:11 -!- cherez has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:11:43 -!- cherez1 has changed nick to cherez. 06:11:45 -!- cherez has left (?). 06:14:01 -!- kwertii has quit ("bye"). 06:22:37 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:22:57 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 06:36:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 06:43:51 huh.. thats neat 06:43:58 XORs are conditional inverters :) 07:14:26 -!- olsner has joined. 07:28:27 oklofok! 07:43:07 XORs are conditional inverters :) <-- yes and? 07:43:29 i think its cool. 07:43:37 You know what else is cool? 07:43:40 The Fonz. 07:43:47 Eyyyyyy 07:56:51 -!- oklopol has joined. 07:57:00 oklopol! :D 07:57:05 morning :) 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:13:56 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:18:14 oklopol! >O 08:18:41 we need to consider two things, oklopol. ais brought them up earlier. 08:19:01 and i think we should do both of them 08:19:14 the first is lambda formal argument lists 08:19:16 instead of @ -> ... 08:19:24 i suggest @: ... 08:20:49 also, two reactions like x -> y, z -> y 08:21:04 should the second invalidate the first 08:21:10 or should they _both_ be active? 09:05:05 anyone seen ais or ehird today? 09:05:16 i saw ais earlier 09:05:26 how long ago? 09:05:27 whereby earlier means yesterday, but thats today for me ;) 09:05:36 around midnight GMT? 09:05:42 if then it is not of interest 09:05:52 I mean today as in European time 09:06:30 i saw ais around 6pm EST 19th June 09:06:43 that is, 10 hours ago 09:10:51 well that is of 0 interest 09:10:55 :p 09:10:59 because that would be midnight 09:11:01 its still today for me! :p 09:11:05 same time as I last saw him 10:08:33 today, i'm going to DRINK MYSELF DRUNK 10:10:41 psygnisfive: they both used to be active 10:10:48 you've changed that at some point 10:10:56 they're both active in my implementation 10:22:53 i'm sure i've asked you exactly whether they x->z; y->z should keep both reactions, but cannot find that in my logs 10:22:54 damn 11:05:22 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:15:43 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Remote closed the previous member app"). 12:05:54 -!- AnMaster has quit ("thunderstorm"). 12:29:55 -!- Corun has joined. 12:41:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:53:40 -!- ihope_ has joined. 12:53:46 -!- ihope_ has changed nick to ihope. 12:55:40 hi ihope 12:56:03 Ello. 12:57:41 * ais523 's exam results came out today 12:59:13 ah, I finally figured out what I'd got wrong on my option form 12:59:21 I was having problems counting to 120 in units of 10 12:59:28 which should be a simple task for a programmer 13:00:34 -!- ais523 has quit ("mibbit.com: brb"). 13:03:08 -!- RedDak has joined. 13:06:43 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:09:09 -!- caio has joined. 13:26:34 -!- jix has joined. 13:41:54 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:47:00 -!- Corun has joined. 14:12:38 -!- Judofyr has quit. 14:22:11 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:26:21 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:30:51 -!- jix has joined. 14:54:43 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:01:16 -!- Judofyr has quit. 15:04:13 -!- AnMaster has joined. 15:11:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:11:39 back, sorry it took so long 15:27:00 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:30:13 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:40:33 -!- tusho has joined. 15:40:52 hi ais523 15:40:54 HAHAHAHAHAHA 15:41:16 you 15:41:19 're being slow, ais523 15:41:28 ah, idle half an hour 15:41:31 oh, yes 15:41:49 ais523: using an ajax client again...? 15:41:49 I was looking at the wrong part of the screen 15:41:55 tusho: yes 15:41:55 LOL 15:42:09 so you did /version me the other time I used one 15:42:12 I was wondering 15:42:21 either that, or it overrode my quit message 15:42:25 ais523: colloquy VERSION's on /whois 15:42:26 I believe 15:42:33 ah no 15:42:36 ais523: no, it's your hostname 15:42:39 gateawy/web/ajax/mibbit.com/ 15:42:44 oh, yes that would give it away 15:42:55 it seems to give my real hostname as my realname for some reason... 15:43:07 ais523: yes, because all mibbit connections come from mibbit servers 15:43:09 so for effective bans... 15:43:18 they forward your hostname 15:43:23 yes, makes sense 15:43:28 I was wondering how they did it 15:43:34 the realname field seems a strange place to put it 15:44:34 ais523: where do you suggest putting it? 15:44:47 the hostname is a mibbit cloak (which is sane) 15:44:57 the username is the mibbit identifier thing for your session 15:45:00 so ... what's left is the real name 15:45:03 tusho: there's a real-hostname field in the USER command IIRC 15:45:11 but it's ignored by most servers 15:45:15 because they have no way to trust it 15:45:16 ais523: exactly 15:45:21 in fact 15:45:24 presumably, though, they would trust it if it came from mibbit 15:45:26 in the latest rfc it's explicitly ignored 15:45:40 01:05:05 anyone seen ais or ehird today? 15:45:47 tusho: well, I just put xs there for ease of typing 15:45:48 correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he ask that at like 5am 15:45:50 gmt 15:46:13 hmm... well, I was asleep at 5am GMT (= 6am BST) 15:46:28 er, yes, BST is what I meant 15:46:32 god I hate summer time 15:46:41 to me, GMT=GMT+BST-when-needed 15:46:45 and UTC=GMT+sane 15:47:44 ais523: OISC is #1 on proggit 15:47:46 though the wikipedia article.. 15:48:12 personally, I like MiniMAX 15:48:16 as being an unconventional way to do an OISC 15:48:23 ais523: post it on the comments, then :-P 15:48:30 it'll be someone other than me linking to esolangs.org... 15:48:40 tusho: because you've linked it too many times already? 15:48:45 yeah. 15:49:04 it's a shame that my #1 voted comment is a lolcats joke 15:49:22 http://www.reddit.com/info/61gcu/comments/c02jatt 15:49:27 well, esolangs is linked from the Wikipedia article 15:49:34 Subleq, to be precise 15:49:38 well, actualy: 15:49:40 http://www.reddit.com/info/61gcu/comments/c02jahi 15:49:45 if you want to actually understand my comment :-P 15:50:26 the comment by ealf references Iota 15:50:35 so someone else is up on the game, too 15:50:49 ais523: people know esolangs 15:50:50 just not esolangs.org 15:50:58 also, iota is soooooooooooooooo a cheat 15:51:02 sure the syntax is minimal 15:51:04 but the semantics are huge 15:51:09 first, you bring in the lambda calculus 15:51:09 well, it's a reasonably complex combinator 15:51:12 then, you bring in S and K 15:51:17 then, you invent your own combinator on top of it 15:51:32 tusho: no, it's a unique combinator that can be expressed in terms of S and K, or as a lambda 15:51:32 in fact 15:51:35 is iota even a combinator? 15:51:40 S and K are just shorthand for lambda expressions 15:51:41 but still, it's a pretty complicated combinator 15:51:52 tusho: yes, so is iota 15:51:52 \x.x(\xyz.xz(yz))(\xy.x) 15:51:58 that's not a combinator 15:52:13 that's iota? 15:52:17 ais523: yes 15:52:21 iota = \x.xSK 15:52:32 so iota = \x.x(\xyz.xz(yz))(\xy.x) 15:52:35 therefore, iota is not a combinator 15:52:39 try it with unique variable names 15:52:44 you're shadowing there, making it harder to read 15:52:48 true 15:53:02 \x.x(\abc.ac(bc))(\ab.a) 15:53:04 \a.a(\b.\c.\d.bd(cd)(\e.\f.e) 15:53:20 to make all the lambdas have unique names and separated 15:53:32 ais523: it's still not a combinator? 15:53:43 huh: 15:53:43 well, what does combinator mean, precisely? 15:53:44 A combinator is a higher-order function which, for defining a result from its arguments, solely uses function application and earlier defined combinators. 15:53:48 that sounds wrong 15:53:52 that makes combinator=lambda 15:53:59 I'm pretty sure combinators are non-nestedlambdas 15:54:02 tusho: no, it makes combinators=combinators 15:54:04 it can't bottom out 15:54:18 but I'm probably totally wrong 15:55:22 I attempt to learn grammar and spelling. - Quazie 15:55:29 I like the MiniMAX single instruction partly because it's easy to express in x86 asm, and partly because it's unique compared to the other OISCs 15:55:42 oh, and it takes no arguments, but depends on two pointers of internal state 15:55:53 I suppose you could say that those pointers, plus memory, are its arguments 15:56:06 the initial state of memory and the pointers is a MiniMAX program 15:56:51 yes 15:56:52 i'd say so 15:57:23 MiniMAX is harder to get one's head around than the other OISCs, though 15:57:45 01:05:05 anyone seen ais or ehird today? 15:57:46 ah hi 15:57:52 I made an ebuild for intercal 15:57:56 ais523, it needs some patches 15:58:08 or the ebuild will fail with "trying to write outside sandbox" 15:58:13 from install-info 15:58:28 also I need to pre-create /usr/bin and /usr/lib in the DESTDIR 15:58:33 or it won't work at all 15:58:41 heh, cool, ais523 used an eso-std.org userdir 15:58:49 it tried to install an archive as /usr/lib64 15:58:52 yes as that 15:59:02 ais523, however I can upload it somewhere 15:59:05 as a tarball 15:59:11 AnMaster: why did it do that? 15:59:15 it shouldn't have done 15:59:21 ais523, hm? it didn't mkdir as needed 15:59:30 AnMaster: I have a mkdir -p in there now 15:59:37 ais523, last version? 15:59:38 oh, you're using the version on intercal.freeshell.org? 15:59:43 ais523, and yes I were 15:59:47 gentoo uses releases 16:00:00 AnMaster: the repo's at http://eso-std.org/darcs/c-intercal 16:00:03 but that's unpacked 16:00:09 I can make a tarball for you pretty easily if you like 16:00:18 ais523, the ebuild itself is at http://rafb.net/p/y4VDk286.html 16:02:09 http://rafb.net/p/Drn0Dy41.html 16:02:18 is one of the patches 16:02:32 http://rafb.net/p/Mvdg3I17.html is the other patch 16:02:37 i am amazed that someone would put a trivial 45 line file under the gpl3 16:03:00 tusho, well GPL2 would be ok too 16:03:01 for me 16:03:14 AnMaster: also 16:03:16 2007? 16:03:19 oops 16:03:27 tusho, copy-and-paste error 16:03:29 yeah, people using the gpl3 are living in the past 16:03:32 I totally agree ;) 16:03:36 hah 16:04:08 http://rafb.net/p/H5ikiY96.html 16:04:13 updated GPL2 ebuild 16:04:23 cool, I have power over people 16:04:23 AnMaster: probably best to keep with your patches until the next release version of C-INTERCAL comes out, with those issues fixed 16:04:32 * tusho uses his magical powers for good and evil 16:04:39 nzzzzzzzzzzzzzt 16:04:43 *bzzzzzzzzzzt 16:04:44 tusho, well I would do it GPL2 anyway 16:05:01 C-INTERCAL's GPL2 16:05:08 because I kept the same licence it traditionally had 16:05:11 well, GPL2+ to be precise 16:05:20 ais523, should I submit it to bgo? 16:05:50 AnMaster: may as well, if you can submit updated versions in the future 16:05:51 (bgo = bugs.gentoo.org, where you submit new ebuilds as well) 16:06:42 ais523, well, it should be fairly trivial to update, remove some patches as they are accepted upstream (like http://rafb.net/p/Mvdg3I17.html the current way is just plain wrong) 16:06:52 NO other software try to touch the info files 16:06:54 that I have seen 16:06:55 err 16:06:57 the dir files 16:06:58 I mean 16:07:08 AnMaster: yes, I know 16:07:09 automake won't touch the dir files for example 16:07:11 but I'm being strange 16:07:27 this is kind of like hobix 16:07:28 anyway, C-INTERCAL 0.29 (under development) no longer tries that unless you're root 16:07:37 which upgrades itself via base64 yaml transmission via http 16:07:40 actually, unless the dir file's in your prefix 16:07:42 ais523, well you could be root but in a sandbox 16:07:43 by eval()ing some ruby from the hobix site 16:07:45 it's mandb it doesn't do unless you're root 16:07:55 AnMaster: maybe I should have an install-sane target 16:08:12 ais523, and well gentoo simply uses DESTDIR for installing to the "stage" 16:08:30 I mkdir -p the target dirs now if they don't exist 16:08:53 + 1) sandbox.so LD_PRELOADed library that intercepts syscalls. 2) non-root access 16:08:57 it uses both of those 16:09:32 as the first alternative isn't as secure really, what about static binaries 16:09:55 AnMaster: I suppose you could wrap the syscalls themselves 16:09:58 in the kernel 16:10:04 well that would be hackish 16:10:09 yes 16:10:11 gentoo can use a vanilla kernel 16:10:15 Debian use fakeroot 16:10:26 which pretends to a program it has root priveliges even if it doesn't 16:10:42 I don't know if gentoo uses something like that or not 16:11:07 * AnMaster preprares to submit the ebuild 16:27:35 ais523, https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=228563 16:28:02 so you can track it 16:28:37 ok 16:30:42 ais523, don't expect too much progress 16:30:50 they will probably see it as a joke 16:30:55 yes, well 16:30:58 it will need some developer to be interested 16:30:58 Debian have it as a package 16:31:24 ais523, yes but debian seem to have some policy like "make everything we can a package, except when we don't like the author" 16:32:51 no they don't 16:32:52 :| 16:33:13 anyway, c-intercal isn't a joke 16:33:22 it's actually pretty darn popular as esolangs go 16:33:31 and, you know, people actually compile intercal with it quite often 16:33:41 therefore, there are likely gentoo users who have a use for it, quite a few 16:33:45 therefore, rejecting it is silly 16:35:26 agreed 16:35:40 but it just being forgotten == quite likely 16:39:41 ais523, what was the darcs url you said? 16:40:12 http://eso-std.org/darcs/c-intercal 16:40:26 contains bugfixes for all the bugs you reported 16:40:30 and other fixes too 16:40:35 thanks 16:44:01 trac.minitage.org uses an invalid security certificate. 16:44:01 The certificate is not trusted because the issuer certificate is unknown. 16:44:04 FIREFOX 3 FEATURE DIE DIE DIE 16:44:38 tusho: but all browsers report that 16:44:46 it's an uncertified certificate 16:44:50 anyone could have generated it 16:44:51 ais523: but firefox displays it as an error page 16:44:55