00:00:05 <tusho> err, four + a special one
00:00:12 <tusho> BUNK - website won't load at all!
00:00:23 <tusho> FAIL - www.www doesn't work
00:00:31 <tusho> GOOD - www. redirects to www.www
00:00:41 <tusho> BEST - no prefix and www. redirects to www.www
00:01:24 <GregorR> EVEN BESTERER - no prefix and www. redirect to www.www.extra-www.org, www.www works as expected
00:02:00 <GregorR> How does no-www.org's checker work? Just looks at the HTTP headers, right, doesn't expect HTML-redirect or whatnot?
00:02:32 <tusho> GregorR: headers, right
00:02:43 <tusho> instead of EVEN BESTERER
00:02:53 <tusho> HARDCORE - www. and no prefix don't work at all, but www.www. does
00:03:03 <tusho> (no-www's Class C)
00:03:21 <tusho> i mean who wants to show an information page GregorR?
00:03:23 <tusho> when you can just fail
00:04:16 <GregorR> I should make www. and no-prefix fail for www.www.extra-www.org .
00:04:37 <tusho> because how will people know when they find it
00:04:42 <GregorR> But it would be HARD-EFFING-CORE!!!
00:05:01 <tusho> GregorR: will codu.org adopt extra-www standards?
00:05:12 <tusho> http://www.www.codu.org/
00:05:16 <tusho> not much of a Great Success !
00:05:31 <GregorR> It could POSSIBLY be that extra-www is a joke X-P
00:05:38 <tusho> GregorR: Yes but adopting jokes is fun
00:05:56 <GregorR> Testing extra-www.org for HTTP access
00:05:56 <GregorR> Domain does not qualify. Error code: NA
00:06:18 <tusho> GregorR: Wait, are you writing the qualifiers?
00:06:38 <GregorR> That was the result from no-www.org on extra-www.org .
00:06:48 <tusho> GregorR: 24 hour lag stuffs
00:06:52 <tusho> you buy so many domains
00:06:55 <tusho> buy tusho.org next time
00:06:58 <tusho> i'll luff you forever
00:07:11 <GregorR> Is it not already owned by softcore porn?
00:12:59 -!- Corun has joined.
00:15:27 * GregorR forgot how awful PHP is :P
00:18:44 <AnMaster> <tusho> GregorR: will codu.org adopt extra-www standards?
00:18:44 <AnMaster> <tusho> http://www.www.codu.org/
00:18:46 <tusho> GregorR: Ooh... a D web library...
00:18:49 <tusho> Now that sounds appealing.
00:18:55 <tusho> AnMaster: http://www.www.extra-www.org/
00:19:02 <tusho> GregorR: Does it now?
00:19:07 <oklopol> AnMaster: the answer is like 5 lines back
00:19:36 <tusho> AnMaster: GregorR just made it
00:19:38 <tusho> it's a parody of no-www
00:20:09 <AnMaster> "envbot.org previously reported as Class B. <a href='http://click-here-to-retest.co.uk'> "
00:20:22 <GregorR> tusho: No, it is not (yet?) extra-www compliant.
00:20:32 <AnMaster> www.envbot.org redirects to non-www version
00:20:35 <tusho> I didn't repeat that, GregorR
00:20:39 <AnMaster> if just the damn dns wasn't broken
00:20:43 <tusho> GregorR: I was saying how a D web library sounded
00:21:00 <GregorR> <tusho> Now that sounds appealing. <tusho> GregorR: Does it now // /me didn't get this :P
00:21:01 <tusho> because you complained about php
00:21:04 <GregorR> Idonno, I haven't really looked into one.
00:21:12 <tusho> GregorR: Well I didn't mean using an existing one
00:21:16 <tusho> That would be LAYM
00:21:32 <tusho> Unless I wrote it - which I'm now toying with...
00:24:04 <tusho> GregorR: Hmm. A D templating language just seems WRONG
00:24:16 <tusho> Test <%= new Foo() %>
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00:27:19 <tusho> GregorR: wtf is the tango logo
00:27:58 <tusho> http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/chrome/theme/images/Logo5.png
00:28:22 <tusho> http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/chrome/theme/images/Head-NewTango3.png
00:28:22 <GregorR> tusho: How should I know? :P
00:28:31 <tusho> GregorR: You do tango stuff!
00:29:13 <tusho> AnMaster: he likes it?
00:29:43 <GregorR> AnMaster: You don't like it?
00:29:52 <tusho> what's wrong with D apart from you not liking it?
00:29:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, I know it is a hell to get working
00:30:01 <tusho> AnMaster: no it's not
00:30:01 <GregorR> This is an unfortunate truth.
00:30:05 <AnMaster> I couldn't get tango to compile on gdc even
00:30:14 <tusho> i mean, it was a little of fuss the first time
00:30:16 <tusho> but not really that much
00:30:34 <AnMaster> I expect it to work out of box with gdc
00:30:50 <AnMaster> because at syntax level D looks really nice
00:30:52 <tusho> GregorR: say, what's the inline delegate syntax?
00:30:54 <tusho> for passing to a function
00:31:02 <AnMaster> for non performance critical applications
00:31:04 <GregorR> { /* place content here */ }
00:31:15 <tusho> AnMaster: I take it cfunge is an enterprise performance critical application?
00:31:34 <tusho> GregorR: maybe a plof web lib would be better
00:31:34 <AnMaster> tusho, that is beside the point
00:31:47 <tusho> (o, and how does it take arguments like that)
00:32:17 <AnMaster> anyway I would just continue to use C idioms I bet :P
00:33:49 <GregorR> You could have a whole HTML-compatible syntax built into Plof, so you just need to toss a HTML file through the interpreter.
00:34:20 <tusho> GregorR: That would be the Plof Templating Language, I guess. But it'd be nice to write the backend in Real User Plof. :P
00:34:25 <tusho> Now how do I take arguments to a delegate...?
00:35:42 <GregorR> (int foo, int bar) { ... }
00:36:40 <AnMaster> gcc (GCC) 4.1.2 20070214 ( (gdc 0.24, using dmd 1.020)) (Gentoo 4.1.2 p1.0.2)
00:36:44 <tusho> GregorR: what does plof look like these days
00:36:48 <AnMaster> can't compile any tango version
00:37:01 <GregorR> tusho: Like that, sort of ;)
00:37:14 <AnMaster> GregorR, another thing: tango can't install into a prefix it seems
00:37:30 <AnMaster> which means I can't use it on systems with phobos where I don't have root
00:37:33 <GregorR> AnMaster: Tango needs to install over the Phobos GDC comes with: it is a replacement core library.
00:37:42 <AnMaster> GregorR, I can't depend on that
00:37:56 <GregorR> And yet you CAN depend on having a D installation in the first place? That's weird.
00:38:00 <tusho> I love AnMaster's enterprisey concerns
00:38:05 <AnMaster> GregorR, the day it can be installed into a prefix, or is default maybe
00:38:09 <tusho> "But ... something might break! Conceivably! So it's best I just don't use D."
00:38:12 <AnMaster> GregorR, well let me tell you why
00:38:19 <AnMaster> GregorR, 1) tango is hard to install correctly
00:38:26 <AnMaster> 2) gdc is also hard, but less hard
00:38:33 <GregorR> Tango can be installed to a prefix by nature of the fact that GDC can be installed to a prefix, btw.
00:38:44 <AnMaster> GregorR, well not a different prefix
00:38:58 <tusho> AnMaster: dude, tango more than just a libc replacement
00:39:02 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:39:06 <tusho> it literally rips out everything that d does
00:39:08 <tusho> and adds its new stuff
00:39:13 <tusho> it HAS to replace the other stuff
00:39:22 <tusho> it's not an opt-in thing, because of its very nature
00:39:25 <AnMaster> GregorR, I don't know if this depends on me using x86_64 or not but it doesn't work for me (TM)
00:39:45 <AnMaster> also it prevents using programs that wants phobos instead of tango
00:39:49 <GregorR> x86_64 has been historically more difficult than x86, but when I switched to x86_64 I didn't notice any difference.
00:39:57 <GregorR> That's what tangobos is for.
00:40:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, why can't D just decide on *ONE* standard library
00:40:06 <tusho> AnMaster: they have
00:40:08 <tusho> nobody uses phobos
00:40:16 <GregorR> <AnMaster> like C does // Hahaha
00:40:19 <AnMaster> tusho, why is it default then?
00:40:22 <tusho> GregorR: yeah I lol'd at that
00:40:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, it is defined in specs
00:40:30 <tusho> AnMaster: because walter bright uses phobos
00:40:47 <AnMaster> GregorR, even if they are not the same software they conform to the same specs
00:41:03 <tusho> libc is very broken in a lot of places
00:41:07 <AnMaster> I can take a program developed for glibc and drop it on freebsd and so on
00:41:08 <tusho> and too minimalistic for any usage to boot
00:41:11 <tusho> i'd much rather have tango
00:41:16 <tusho> AnMaster: no you can't
00:41:28 <AnMaster> tusho, as long as it only uses what is in the C specs
00:41:31 <tusho> you have to think about it in advance
00:41:41 <tusho> AnMaster: ... thus making glibc's improvements worthless!
00:41:53 <AnMaster> tusho, they are vendor specific functions, all got that
00:42:22 * GregorR chooses to completely ignore and not respond to this argument.
00:42:44 <AnMaster> but the standard is rich enough for C (IMO, I know you will disagree) that apart from networking (which POSIX specs) the common "subset" works well
00:42:59 <AnMaster> GregorR, anyway problem is it is hard to get D working
00:43:11 <tusho> show me a plof program
00:43:14 <AnMaster> the language itself is beautiful IMO
00:43:23 <GregorR> AnMaster: I admit that, but have neither the manpower nor skills to change that.
00:43:33 <tusho> GregorR: Scratch that
00:43:33 <GregorR> tusho: Idonno, what do you want?
00:43:36 <tusho> GregorR: Write a plof program
00:43:40 <tusho> (Since there are none.)
00:43:47 <tusho> And I just want a basic syntax, stdlib using program.
00:43:50 <GregorR> I can show you a chunk of the core library *shrugs*
00:43:58 <tusho> GregorR: Yeah but the core library isn't what user code wil lbe
00:44:07 <GregorR> Not the corest part of the core library.
00:44:26 <AnMaster> GregorR, also it isn't as mature yet. How much will future D specs differ. Both C and C++ are quite mature by now (well FORTRAN beats them of course)
00:44:48 <tusho> AnMaster: d 2.0 is pretty stable
00:44:50 <GregorR> AnMaster: I'm not even arguing for D here, tusho was :P
00:44:57 <tusho> and you don't have to use the newer features if you don't want
00:45:06 <AnMaster> tusho, and that is what gdc implements?
00:45:07 <tusho> i don't think many backwards-incompatible changes have been made
00:45:13 <tusho> AnMaster: it implements a lot of 2.0
00:45:18 <tusho> gdc is pretty stable
00:45:21 <AnMaster> is gdc the only open source interpreter?
00:45:22 <tusho> your code won't break overnight
00:45:31 <tusho> and gdc just hooks in dmd into gcc
00:45:34 <tusho> dmd's frontend is open source
00:45:40 <tusho> just it's backend isn't because of other people's code
00:45:54 <AnMaster> tusho, well there are no independent frontends are there?
00:46:03 <GregorR> tusho: http://www.codu.org/cgi-bin/hg/hgwebdir.cgi/plof/file/512a473fb11b/core/pul/collection.plof // this has a few psl{} bits, but, err, ignore those :P
00:46:05 <tusho> AnMaster: no, so what? it's open source and alright
00:46:10 <tusho> GregorR: "$DPLOF $FLAGS $INFILES -c $OUTFILE"
00:46:13 <tusho> GregorR: WHAT ABOUT SPACES
00:46:17 <AnMaster> tusho, for C there are quite a few implementations, both closed and open source
00:46:20 <tusho> "QUOTE" "YOUR" "VARIABLES"
00:46:25 <tusho> AnMaster: yeah, and it's the exception mostly
00:46:31 <GregorR> tusho: I know, I cringed when I wrote that, but the nested quoting was getting way complicated :P
00:46:58 <AnMaster> C++ got quite a few implementations too
00:47:00 <tusho> clean is not interpreted
00:47:02 <GregorR> AnMaster: Very, very few languages have multiple frontends. C++ has two, most of the commercial ones license the frontend from a single company.
00:47:14 <AnMaster> tusho, oh I didn't see clean until I pressed enter
00:47:20 <GregorR> (There have been others for C++ in the past, but most are dead)
00:47:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, hm? C++ got more, MSVC, g++ and icc iirc
00:48:02 <AnMaster> oh doesn't Borland have one too?
00:48:12 <GregorR> They all license the EDG frontend.
00:48:17 <tusho> AnMaster: http://www.edg.com/
00:48:44 <AnMaster> C got gcc, icc, MSVC (that one sucks), Borland's, pcc, and some more
00:48:54 <tusho> MSVC = Borland = ICC
00:49:24 <GregorR> AnMaster, tusho: I'm not sure about C, I just know they share the C++ frontend.
00:49:36 <GregorR> AnMaster, tusho: In fact, they probably all have their own C frontend (if they don't just reuse the C++ one)
00:49:52 <GregorR> Except of course GCC which has all its own frontends.
00:49:52 <tusho> I imagine there's a lot of reuse
00:50:03 <AnMaster> GregorR, pcc got it's own I'm sure
00:50:11 <tusho> GregorR: plof looks nice
00:50:14 <tusho> one suggestion though, GregorR
00:50:21 <tusho> make (binop) be the same as (x, y)(x binop y)
00:50:24 <GregorR> tusho: We're agreeing with you that C compilers usually have their own frontends.
00:50:28 <tusho> product = { fold(0, (*)) }
00:50:41 <tusho> (stolen from haskell, but very very nice)
00:50:49 <GregorR> tusho: I want to, but that's a bit obnoxious from how I've designed the parsing framework >_>
00:50:59 <AnMaster> GregorR, anyway gdc is not a part of the official GCC tree is it?
00:51:09 <tusho> GregorR: Well, if you do get it working - add (.meth) -> (o, ...){ o.meth(...) }
00:51:12 <tusho> GregorR: That's also useful
00:51:22 <tusho> [1,2,3].map(.succ)
00:51:25 <GregorR> AnMaster: Not so long as Walter retains copyright over the frontend.
00:51:29 <AnMaster> otherwise support can just drop in the future
00:51:35 <GregorR> tusho: That would be useful 8-D
00:51:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, eh, I thought you said it was open source?
00:51:45 <tusho> GregorR: Stole that from a common ruby extension-idiom :P
00:51:50 <tusho> AnMaster: fsf requires copyright assignment
00:51:52 <GregorR> AnMaster: It is, but GCC only incorporates things which are both GPL and owned by the FSF.
00:51:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, open source as defined by OSI?
00:52:29 <tusho> GregorR: [1,2,3].map(.succ).fold(0, (*))
00:52:31 <AnMaster> well once tango is default and it is easy to set up I may consider D
00:52:34 <tusho> you could probably drop the parens
00:52:36 <tusho> I doubt it's ambigious
00:52:42 <tusho> GregorR: [1,2,3].map(.succ).fold(0, *)
00:52:48 <AnMaster> D looks like a good language compared to C++
00:53:16 <AnMaster> maybe a bit *too* much to easily learn but nicer syntax than C++
00:53:30 <tusho> GregorR: Does plof have varargs? What's the syntax?
00:53:31 <AnMaster> GregorR, is it possible to skip the garbage collector in D?
00:53:37 <AnMaster> GregorR, avoiding the runtime library at all?
00:53:50 <tusho> AnMaster: if you avoid the runtime lib you have to fill out a lot of functions for it to run
00:53:55 <tusho> that's only done for OS dev though
00:53:57 <GregorR> tusho: Sort of, but it's gross right now, haven't thought of a clean way to do it: Basically, every function has an args[] array *shrugs*
00:53:59 <tusho> you CAN disable the gc though
00:54:02 <AnMaster> tusho, exactly what my point was
00:54:12 <AnMaster> but who would write a kernel in D...
00:54:12 <tusho> AnMaster: you can disable the gc
00:54:13 <GregorR> AnMaster: Erm, you can do it even without tearing out the runtime library
00:54:27 <tusho> GregorR: well, how about this: (a, b, c...) { /* c is the rest of the args */ }
00:54:31 <GregorR> AnMaster: Like tusho is saying, you can disable the GC - also, you can just never incur it by never using 'new' :P
00:54:32 <tusho> GregorR: fairly simple syntax extension
00:54:36 <tusho> AnMaster: xana has a d kernel
00:55:02 <GregorR> tusho: That's the ultimate plan (that's what Plof2 did), but I don't have .slice working, so it's not in yet ;)
00:55:12 <tusho> AnMaster: http://code.google.com/p/projectxana/
00:56:12 <tusho> AnMaster: like xanadu
00:56:16 <tusho> (the original hypertext system)
00:56:48 <tusho> AnMaster: complicated to explain, that's what
00:58:17 <tusho> GregorR: Will Plof make me toast?
00:58:36 <tusho> Has anyone ... written any programs in Plof yet?
00:58:45 <tusho> Aside from, um, test.plof
00:58:52 <GregorR> tusho: No, I keep on pulling the language out from under them ;)
00:59:09 <tusho> GregorR: You forgot curry.plof!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
00:59:25 <tusho> Also, GregorR, #plof time
01:00:15 <AnMaster> GregorR, tusho: is plof esoteric?
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01:43:00 <GregorR> http://www.www.extra-www.org/validator.php
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04:01:29 <GregorR> Checking www.www.google.com ... failed to connect
04:01:29 <GregorR> Checking www.google.com ... does not redirect
04:01:29 <GregorR> Checking google.com ... does not redirect
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04:10:43 <GregorR> I think I'm going to contact no-www.org now.
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04:39:42 <lament> GregorR: i would like it more if it had fewer exclamation marks
04:39:53 <lament> (www.www.extra-www.org)
04:40:56 <lament> and the color scheme sucks but of course that's not your fault :D
04:41:11 <lament> (what were they thinking? it's genuinely hard to read)
04:45:01 <GregorR> Just added a link to no-www.org
04:45:05 <GregorR> Actually, to www.www.no-www.org , which works, awesomely enough.
04:47:11 <lament> not only it works, but it -does not redirect-
04:47:21 <lament> that is indeed awesome
04:47:43 <lament> they might fix that, though ;)
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07:30:30 <Slereah_> Although I'll have to read up on Befunge first
07:32:38 <Slereah_> A bully automaton based on Portal.
07:34:36 <Slereah_> It has plenty of crates, doors and buttons.
07:34:45 <Slereah_> Maybe something could be done out of this.
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08:10:05 <Slereah_> The hard part is to think up of a way to link the portals to each other and the doors to the buttons.
09:03:06 <oklofok> portal has two portals, the part where you shoot them is quite crucial
09:36:17 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
09:37:44 <Slereah_> Actually, the first levels are full of already there portals
09:37:54 <Slereah_> And shooting the portals would be quite a pain in the ass.
09:44:55 <oklofok> also, i doubt even sex with a man is as homoerotic as trying to open a bottle full of frozen energy drink.
09:45:40 <oklofok> it's like giving a blow job to a mechanical elephant
09:48:41 <oklofok> first of all, you have to jam it in real good and twist it all around... and then it starts spraying fucking brown goo all around.
09:48:59 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol.
09:51:28 <oklopol> the brown part yeah (unless you bit it too hard or something)
09:54:40 <oklopol> this esme language seems very, very cool
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11:51:47 <oklopol> i've been trying to forget...
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14:13:42 <Sgeo> Will there EVER be specs for esme?
14:13:57 <Sgeo> MKBL is better off than esme at this time'
14:16:20 <pikhq> http://www.viruscomix.com/page446.html
14:19:46 <oklopol> it would be so great working in a cubicle
14:25:43 <Sgeo> Well, not this latest one
14:26:40 <Sgeo> http://cectic.com/163.html
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15:24:20 <oklopol> yeah, right after the implementation
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16:11:22 <oklopol> ais523 isn't here, you filthy noob!
16:11:24 <Slereah_> [16:39:24] <AnMaster> where is tusho and ais?
16:11:31 <Slereah_> It seems you're right on time!
16:11:46 <tusho> AnMaster, I usually get here around this time :p
16:11:51 <tusho> but ais is probably, you know. Doing non-computer things
16:12:09 <tusho> oklopol: yes but if I check he could say hi first
16:16:20 <tusho> yes i know AnMaster
16:16:23 <tusho> but it's the competition
16:16:26 <tusho> if I check, he'd count "hi ais523"
16:16:32 <tusho> AnMaster: sorry, no
16:16:34 <tusho> there's only one rule
16:16:53 <tusho> 1. If ais523 and tusho are present whoever presses enter on "hi <other person>" wins
16:16:57 <tusho> 1. If ais523 and tusho are present whoever presses enter on "hi <other person>" first wins
16:19:23 <tusho> but yes, ais, if you're logreading, do come
16:20:09 <Slereah_> You know ais. When he's not here, he's just reading the logs all day
16:22:15 <tusho> Slereah_: Pretty much.
16:41:32 <AnMaster> tusho, your client took over half a minute from you joined to send
16:41:40 <AnMaster> tusho, you want to fix your client
16:41:57 <tusho> oklopol responded a few seconds after I hit enter
16:42:03 <tusho> like 20 seconds after
16:42:10 <AnMaster> * tusho (n=tusho@91.105.109.15) has joined #esoteric
16:42:21 <AnMaster> err: 17:10:22 * tusho (n=tusho@91.105.109.15) has joined #esoteric
16:42:37 <AnMaster> 17:11:22 <oklopol> ais523 isn't here, you filthy noob!
16:42:41 <tusho> whatever, AnMaster
16:42:46 <tusho> why do I care how long my client takes to join
16:42:54 <AnMaster> tusho, it does matter as you will loose
16:43:00 <tusho> AnMaster: i won yesterday
16:44:05 <Dewi> pfft, who cares about that now?
16:44:10 <Dewi> I know I don't
16:44:29 <Dewi> I care about who wins now
16:44:36 <Dewi> for at least another 10 seconds or so
16:45:00 <Dewi> this is the breakneck pace of the modern internets
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16:50:12 <tusho> Dewi: but ais isn't here
16:59:08 <tusho> GregorR: GRUGUR AR
17:27:21 <Sgeo> Hate the new dilbert site design? http://www.dilbert.com/fast
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17:31:38 <Slereah_> For that, I'd have to know the old design
17:33:14 <Sgeo> It didn't use flash for everything
17:33:47 <Slereah_> Flash is the great scourge of the new internet.
17:34:02 <Slereah_> Flash should only be used to put together hilarious animations.
17:34:11 <Slereah_> Web design using Flash makes me a sad panda.
17:35:11 <tusho> Slereah_: Congrats, you're sane.
17:36:28 <Sgeo> One thing I like about the new design is the ability to read many on one page. The flash pain offsets that, though
17:36:35 <Sgeo> Maybe I should make a dilbert.com scraper
17:36:56 <tusho> it's hard to scrape flash, Sgeo ...
17:37:44 <Sgeo> tusho, http://www.dilbert.com/fast
17:37:56 <tusho> I might scrape that
17:37:59 <tusho> It'd give me something to do
17:38:09 <tusho> apart from all the other things I'm doing, that is
17:39:00 <Sgeo> http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2008-06-15/
17:43:11 <Sgeo> http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2008-06-21/
17:51:00 <Slereah_> But then again, they'd better be since they're annoying as fuck.
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18:03:21 <cctoide> no they're not you steam hater
18:03:37 <cctoide> anyway they're content servers of course they have the bandwidth of mr. hands
18:06:29 <Slereah_> cctoide : Well, you know what would be better than the Steam system?
18:06:43 <Slereah_> Not having to have internet when I want to play a fucking not online game.
18:07:47 <AnMaster> Slereah_, wtf is steam in this context?
18:08:26 <Slereah_> Steam is the system to activate Valve games.
18:08:48 <tusho> GregorR: I just reddited extra-www.
18:09:03 <tusho> someone already did
18:09:08 <Slereah_> There's plenty of nice features in it
18:09:23 <Slereah_> But it doesn't change the fact that it's annoying when you've got connection trouble.
18:11:36 <cctoide> well go into offline mode then
18:12:46 <AnMaster> <Slereah_> Not having to have internet when I want to play a fucking not online game.
18:13:01 <AnMaster> record the traffic and write a fake server
18:13:13 <tusho> AnMaster: 'simple'
18:13:16 <tusho> REWRITE VALVE'S SERVER
18:13:23 <tusho> WHICH PROBABLY USES CRAZY AUTHENTICATION AND ENCRYPTION
18:13:27 <tusho> YEAH THAT'S TRIVIAL
18:13:31 <Slereah_> Why didn't I think of that before!
18:13:43 <tusho> Especially since Slereah_ is such a self-admitted EXPERT PROGRAMMER
18:13:51 <AnMaster> tusho, I know someone who did it for some professional 3D software
18:14:00 <AnMaster> otherwise I wouldn't have suggested it
18:18:28 <Slereah_> http://www.viruscomix.com/reducks.gif
18:18:35 <Slereah_> Incest is the source of much comedy.
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18:52:28 <lament> "Brainfuck interpretter written in LolCode" is #1 on pr.reddit
18:55:12 <tusho> lolcode is so unique
18:55:28 <tusho> at least my comment got 33 points, right?
18:56:02 <tusho> {Words cannot express the depth of my love for ridiculous esoteric programming languages being interpreted by other ridiculous esoteric programming languages.}
18:56:05 <tusho> LOLCODE IS NOT FUCKING ESOTERIC
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18:56:20 -!- tusho has set topic: LOLCode is NOT AN ESOLANG | #esoteric - the international hub for esoteric language design, development and deployment | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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19:04:03 <pikhq> cherez: Care to get on IM?
19:07:05 <tusho> pikhq: By the way, I have a Plof 3 resyntaxing proposal whirring around my head. Be prepared to hate me viciously when I show it.
19:07:34 <pikhq> However, if you keep the same bytecode-level ABI, then it won't even matter.
19:07:59 <tusho> pikhq: No, but I'll rewrite the stdlib in it and try and convince GregorR it's the most awesomest thing ever. :P
19:08:19 <pikhq> If it's non-Plofy, then Gregor is liable to hate it.
19:08:25 <pikhq> Care to give some examples?
19:08:34 <tusho> pikhq: Not non-Plofy, no.
19:08:41 <tusho> Just cleaner. Less syntactic noise. More sugar, but not too much.
19:08:49 <tusho> Simple rules, but a little bit more complex for a great gain.
19:08:55 <pikhq> Well, then, he'll probably encourage it.
19:08:56 <tusho> It's not THAT drastic.
19:09:14 <tusho> pikhq: It borrows one or two things from Ruby, though, so I imagine you might dislike it :P
19:09:17 <tusho> Though, it resembles Tcl too.
19:09:25 <tusho> But the bits it borrows do.
19:09:26 <pikhq> After all, he's made Plof 3's syntax runtime-definable just so that he can mess with things.
19:10:02 <tusho> pikhq: I'll show you an initial prototype if you don't ask too many questions - I haven't worked out the formality yet :P
19:10:16 <tusho> (Two elements of it GregorR has already yes'd yesterday, so.)
19:10:39 <tusho> Sheesh. The trac browser is slow.
19:14:40 <tusho> pikhq: JESUS, codu.org is slow
19:14:45 <tusho> How can I rewrite a file if I can't get it?
19:14:49 <pikhq> That's not normal.
19:19:16 <tusho> pikhq: codu.org=down
19:19:42 <pikhq> That would explain it.
19:20:36 <tusho> pikhq: I can has collection.plof?
19:20:58 <pikhq> Don't have a local copy; sorry.
19:22:33 <tusho> Wonder if it's in my cache
19:23:11 <tusho> It has line numbers.
19:23:31 <tusho> pikhq: Ok. Now I do it :P
19:23:53 <GregorR> I wonder if reddit'ing www.www.extra-www.org smashed my server :P
19:26:00 <tusho> GregorR: Someone had submitted it before
19:26:06 <tusho> Cause their title sucked
19:26:16 <GregorR> I didn't submit it, I just noticed that somebody else did.
19:26:26 <tusho> reddit.com/user/ehird
19:26:42 <tusho> http://pastebin.ca/raw/1060676 <-- Prototype initial Plof3-resyntaxing proposal.
19:26:47 <tusho> Nothing is set in stone, but I think it looks a lot nicer.
19:26:56 <tusho> (FYI, there's no extra special cases)
19:27:08 <tusho> (And the fold(0, +) was already GregorR-approved yesterday)
19:27:17 <lament> it's not on the front page :(
19:27:20 <tusho> Apart from that, it just looks way cleaner, i think
19:27:30 <tusho> the semicolon can be removed
19:27:31 <GregorR> http://www.www.reddit.com/info/6pyxu/comments/c04k3wy
19:28:21 <tusho> GregorR: hahahahahahah
19:28:26 <pikhq> Getting rid of semicolons just doesn't look right in a C-esque syntax.
19:28:40 <tusho> pikhq: Not with my revisions
19:28:47 <pikhq> Not that I'm going to be ubercritical of that. ;)
19:28:47 <tusho> (Note how nicer 'each' calls look)
19:28:56 <tusho> pikhq: specifically, parens are now optional in some cases
19:29:05 <tusho> to keep functions as pass-aroundable, you have to do f() for zeroadic ones
19:29:11 <tusho> works, because it's not ambiguous
19:29:14 <tusho> and for things like if, for, each
19:29:19 <pikhq> That's actually handy.
19:29:19 <tusho> you really notice it, a lot less clutter
19:29:33 <pikhq> It's now less C-esque.
19:29:41 <pikhq> That *is* fairly Ruby-esque, though.
19:29:47 <pikhq> And, IIRC, Perl-esque, as well.
19:29:55 <tusho> However, in ruby, 'f' calls f()
19:30:02 <tusho> so you have to reify functions into Proc objects with a .call method
19:30:05 <tusho> This sidesteps all that nonsense
19:30:24 <tusho> Of course, there'll be cases where you want to leave the parens in
19:30:32 <tusho> But I can't see why you'd want return(ret) when you can do return ret :P
19:30:56 <tusho> pikhq: Not without the commas.
19:31:05 <tusho> Then it'd be ambiguous where arguments start and end.
19:31:10 <tusho> However, 'fold 0, +' would probably work.
19:31:21 <tusho> would probably be fold 0, +2
19:31:27 <tusho> So it'd be ambiguous in some cases.
19:31:35 <tusho> but this wouldn't:
19:32:05 <tusho> Oh, and (o,...){ o.foo(...) } is such a common case that I think (.foo) should be that
19:32:10 <tusho> (Gregor said that was good yesterday too, so.)
19:32:50 * GregorR 'll just continue to wait to see what the result is:P
19:33:04 <tusho> GregorR: Did you look at my pastebin post? :P
19:33:53 <tusho> http://pastebin.ca/raw/1060676
19:34:35 <GregorR> Semicolons are an operator, using line-based syntax turns this into a true imperative language, which it is not (unless newline is an operator, which is a gross thought)
19:35:05 <tusho> GregorR: Newlines just add implicit semicolon tokens when it's not ambiguous.
19:35:22 <tusho> What about my other change, though?
19:35:32 <tusho> is a lot better than what it was before, IMO
19:36:13 <GregorR> It's ambiguous in nearly every case you put there, as semicolons differentiate from functional-style expression-is-the-function and imperative-style I-expect-a-return-somewhere.
19:36:21 <GregorR> Well, those parens don't match :P
19:36:29 <tusho> Those parens ... do match.
19:36:38 <tusho> Your eyes are borken :P
19:36:48 <tusho> And, it's not ambiguous actually...
19:36:51 <pikhq> That looks like you're calling each(y), and then for god knows what reason, trying to create a function without arguments.
19:36:55 <tusho> Because you can unify those two seperate styles, which aren't seperate.
19:37:08 <tusho> pikhq: Yes, just like:
19:37:19 <tusho> reads as calling if(y) GNU-style
19:37:25 <tusho> then doing some stuff in a block
19:37:33 <pikhq> Except that in C, if isn't a function.
19:37:52 <tusho> pikhq: And in plof, it is. :P
19:38:02 <lament> it's kinda really strange that if in C requires parens
19:38:07 <tusho> Still, I think my style has less clutter; it's ambiguous in a few cases
19:38:14 <tusho> but not many enough to outweigh the advantages
19:38:16 <pikhq> In Plof, reading if(foo) {bar} as calling if(foo) is a valid parse.
19:38:34 <tusho> GregorR: Swarm of parentheses and semicolons coming to rip your face out = LOVELY
19:38:37 <pikhq> In C, since if isn't a function, there's no fucking way that'll parse right.
19:38:46 <GregorR> tusho: Clearly you don't like LISP :P
19:38:53 <tusho> GregorR: I do, but it's not elegant in this case
19:39:33 <GregorR> tusho: Inelegance vs ambiguity? I'll take inelegance every time.
19:39:46 <tusho> GregorR: The ambiguity isn't great.
19:39:51 <lament> who actually likes LISP?
19:39:53 <GregorR> tusho: Your ambiguities need to be resolved.
19:39:54 <tusho> And, uhh, I'd totally take the ambiguity.
19:39:59 <tusho> GregorR: There aren't many.
19:40:10 <GregorR> Exactly, so the very few there are NEED TO BE RESOLVED
19:40:10 <tusho> The ones you can see don't have to exist, as far as I can tell
19:40:14 <cctoide> Slereah: File>Go Offline..., you'll be able to play without an internet connection for a few weeks before it needs to reauthenticate
19:40:35 <tusho> GregorR: I imagine they'll only come up when you're deliberately trying to make code that doesn't look like what it'll do... :P
19:40:49 <GregorR> That's what I spend all my days doing!
19:41:00 <tusho> GregorR: Yes, and in that case, ambiguity is useful!
19:42:15 <GregorR> Oh, btw, why is it that you've removed the parens from function calls but not the commas?
19:42:24 <tusho> GregorR: Because the commas are nice.
19:42:32 <tusho> And removing the commas WOULD make it ambiguous.
19:42:39 <GregorR> (Which, btw, are ambiguous because commas act like semicolons, but that requirement is removable)
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19:43:03 <tusho> f(ret, x) or f(ret(x))
19:43:18 <GregorR> No, that's f ret(x), why else would you use the parens?
19:43:35 <GregorR> Do you want both func arg, arg and func(arg, arg) to work?
19:43:37 <tusho> GregorR: Sometimes parens are nice, you know. :P
19:43:48 <tusho> The parens are just implicit when it's not ambiguous.
19:43:54 <tusho> (And you should always add them if it's confusing...)
19:44:21 <GregorR> If you want functional-language style application, you should disambiguate like so: (func arg, arg)
19:44:33 <tusho> GregorR: But I don't want functional-language style application.
19:44:42 <tusho> Precedent in imperative languages: Perl, Ruby, probably a lot more
19:45:11 <GregorR> Ohyeah, Perl has that ugly function application form, I forgot about that >_>
19:45:29 <tusho> GregorR: Technically I stole it from Ruby, which does it _unambigiously_
19:45:33 <tusho> Though Ruby has some flaws related to it
19:45:39 <tusho> (Which I'll skim over because my version doesn't)
19:45:49 <GregorR> But anyway, saying that something is good or OK because it's in Perl and/or Ruby is like saying that murder is OK because Americans do it.
19:46:22 <tusho> GregorR: Well, I like Perl and Ruby so I'll disagree :P But yes, they have crazy things.
19:46:36 <tusho> using 'each' was a nightmare of ()()(){}{}) without my change.
19:46:47 <tusho> as for 'for', well let me just say that
19:46:47 <tusho> for var i = 0, i < size(), i = i + 1, (
19:46:48 <tusho> this[i] = x this[i]
19:46:51 <tusho> is a lot better IMO
19:47:56 * GregorR still finds that form kind of gross, but he'll have to mull it over.
19:48:09 <GregorR> (That is, no-parens, with-comma)
19:48:13 <tusho> GregorR: It'll probably require a lot of thinking, but I'm pretty sure it can be parsed quite easily
19:48:25 <GregorR> (That being said, you're right that it helps with intrinsic-imitators)
19:48:32 <tusho> Oh, and it helps when you're writing a DSL (although that kind of stuff is more liked by the Ruby people...)
19:49:40 <tusho> GregorR: Oh, and one more thing to mull over about it -
19:49:50 <tusho> I'm pretty sure you can do it almost entirely in the lexer.
19:50:07 <tusho> Which is nicer than polluting the parser.
19:54:03 <GregorR> There is no distinction between the lexer and parser in the runtime parser.
19:55:08 <tusho> GregorR: Yes, well. :-P
19:55:14 <tusho> It's nice IN THEORY
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20:10:30 <Judofyr> what happened with EsoAPI?
20:11:35 <tusho> it's not an interesting idea
20:11:43 <tusho> (obligatory meme: PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX)
20:24:10 <pikhq> tusho: Any idea what the status is on PSOX?
20:24:53 <tusho> pikhq: Dead dead dead dead dead dead dead!
20:24:58 <tusho> Even Sgeo has started to admit it.
20:26:48 <tusho> Last commit 4 months ago.
20:26:58 <pikhq> Sounds like PEBBLE.
20:26:58 <tusho> He hasn't committed since the day I was added.
20:27:07 <pikhq> Well, except that PEBBLE is still fairly useful.
20:27:21 <tusho> a few days after I was added
20:27:23 <tusho> was his last commi
20:27:37 <tusho> pikhq: Oh, and one of his last commits was adding an easter egg.
20:27:42 <tusho> http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/changeset/95
20:28:26 <pikhq> BTW, anyone wanting to develop on PEBBLE: lemme know what you're doing with it. I like hearing that my toys are being used by others. :p
20:29:18 <pikhq> The Practical Esoteric Brainfuck-Based Language, Eh?
20:29:23 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/pebble.php
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21:06:16 <AnMaster> does anyone know how you set a background color in a svg image?
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22:40:03 <moozilla> anyone want to check out my esolang?
22:40:05 <moozilla> http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/27/428255/esoteric.txt
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22:52:00 <tusho> and yeah, lament++
22:52:19 <tusho> jamesstanley: fuck man i'm haf?
22:53:01 <tusho> jamesstanley: look at the bottom of your spec
22:53:49 <tusho> you're not moozilla
22:54:01 <tusho> moozilla: fuck man i'm haf?
22:54:09 <tusho> that's AnMaster's domain
22:54:17 <tusho> jamesstanley: no! get back here!
22:55:11 <AnMaster> tusho, yes kuonet is an irc server too why?
22:55:19 <tusho> AnMaster: just odd
22:55:28 <tusho> moozilla: what is fuck man i'm haf.
22:55:38 <moozilla> i wrote that when i was on drugs
22:55:48 <AnMaster> tusho, a bit odd I agree to have it as realname
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22:56:00 <moozilla> i don't even know how that got there
22:56:04 <tusho> now we can all be haf
22:56:15 <moozilla> so what do you think of the language
22:56:38 <tusho> did you write the rest of the spec on drugs too
22:56:41 <AnMaster> moozilla, remove that thing indeed
22:56:43 <tusho> because it's very hard to read
22:57:00 <tusho> i can't find the intelligable half
22:57:15 <tusho> paragraphs, man :p
22:57:29 <tusho> it kind of makes sense though
22:57:35 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway he mentioned this language there and I recommended him to visit this channel
22:57:56 <AnMaster> but seemed "not too stupid" to me
22:58:10 <AnMaster> yes after reading it more I agree
22:58:27 <jamesstanley> in response to your comment in #maximilian, i like brainloller because of the pretty pictures ;)
22:58:34 <moozilla> AnMaster im planning on rewritting the interpreter tonight
22:58:38 <tusho> don't develop it more on drugs, though, i don't think that would improve the language
22:58:48 <moozilla> tusho i own at coding on drugs
22:58:48 <tusho> you'd probably replace the spec with 'fuck man i'm haf'
22:58:55 <tusho> moozilla: ... but not speccing, perhaps
23:00:00 <moozilla> i'd be pissed if notepad had a spell checker
23:00:23 <tusho> ED IS THE STANDARD EDITOR!
23:00:35 <tusho> VITOR OR EMACSTOR? THOSE AREN'T EVEN WORDS!
23:00:36 <AnMaster> tusho, you are talking to a windows user
23:00:42 <tusho> ED IS AN EDITOR! ED IS THE STANDARD TEXT EDITOR!
23:01:09 <AnMaster> moozilla, ed is one of the oldest and smallest editors on *nix
23:01:15 <tusho> EDLIN IS THE STANDARD EDLINITOR!
23:01:20 <tusho> VITOR OR EMACSTOR? THOSE AREN'T EVEN WORDS!
23:01:20 <moozilla> it sounds like my kind of editor
23:01:26 <moozilla> when i switch to linux i will check it out
23:01:28 <tusho> EDLIN IS AN EDLINITOR! EDLIN IS THE STANDARD TEXT EDITOR!
23:01:41 <tusho> moozilla: it's line-based
23:01:48 <tusho> and you type commands in it to editor
23:01:57 <tusho> and its only error reporting is: ?
23:02:09 <tusho> lament: 'fuck man i'm haf' is the result of drugs, apparently
23:02:18 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:02:25 <tusho> hello pikhq! we're talking about drugs
23:02:42 <moozilla> tusho, AnMaster if you're interested in the current interpretter i'll upload it
23:02:59 <lament> C#, the language of the future
23:03:08 <lament> if C# improves long enough, it will become D
23:03:37 <tusho> lament: and then die like D?
23:03:41 <tusho> pikhq: Hey, it has functional programming shizz.
23:03:57 <pikhq> tusho: D is not dead.
23:04:02 <lament> C# probably has the highest quality*popularity coefficient
23:04:14 <tusho> pikhq: But it's not exactly getting more popular :P
23:04:20 <AnMaster> lament, what does that mean exactly for C?
23:04:27 <AnMaster> C got a high in quality at least
23:04:30 <pikhq> And just because something has functional programming does not make it *good*.
23:04:41 <lament> for most things, C# is much better
23:04:43 <tusho> pikhq: No, but their integration of it is nice.
23:05:04 <lament> C is very verbose for some very basic tasks
23:05:08 <AnMaster> D would be better than C for most things except where you need high performance or low level
23:05:09 <lament> C doesn't even have foreach loops
23:05:20 <AnMaster> lament, C is the language of choice for stuff like kernels
23:05:22 <tusho> lament: note - anmaster refused to use python because you can't write a kernel in it
23:05:31 <AnMaster> sure you can do kernels in C++ or D
23:05:31 <tusho> before you start trying to argue your point..
23:05:33 <moozilla> C# is great for rapid prototyping
23:05:35 <lament> but like i said, for most things, C# is much better
23:05:41 <moozilla> thats why i made my interpreter in it
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23:05:43 <lament> that's because most things aren't kernels
23:06:01 <pikhq> moozilla: For rapid prototyping, use a scripting language. ;)
23:06:01 <AnMaster> lament, I would prefer D really, except it is a pain to install and then install tango correclty
23:06:13 <moozilla> pikhq: i use javascript usually :P
23:06:20 <pikhq> I don't want to have to install Mono to use a program; that's just a ridiculously large runtime.
23:06:29 <AnMaster> well python should be great for that
23:06:31 <tusho> pikhq: That's why you have Mono installed anyway...
23:06:34 <moozilla> im porting it to haskell tonight
23:06:38 <AnMaster> and yes I think python is great once you add braces
23:06:47 <tusho> I can't stand simple syntax
23:06:49 <AnMaster> tusho, iirc I saw some m4 script that allowed braces in python :P
23:06:51 <tusho> I neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed my delimiting braces
23:06:54 <lament> yeah, i hate python, its' too readable
23:06:54 <pikhq> I feel dirty just for installing Boost.
23:07:11 <lament> python makes me feel like being a programmer is too easy
23:07:15 <lament> it should be HARD! dammit, HARD!
23:07:31 <AnMaster> lament, yes that is called job security
23:07:49 <tusho> lament: python is used by homosexual masochists, obviously!
23:07:53 <tusho> OH, MAKE ME INDENT THAT CODE, GUDIO
23:08:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: I have the same thoughts on Mono.
23:08:04 <lament> that's really the spirit of the language
23:08:08 <moozilla> lol its other things about python that turned me off
23:08:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, however I do have both :(
23:08:35 <lament> the spirit of python is: there's one way to do it - guido's way, and if you don't like it, on your knees bitch
23:09:01 <AnMaster> perl then, that is the freedom of the heavens?
23:09:03 <tusho> lament: and guido's way will involve going on your knees anyway, because it's for masochists
23:09:11 <lament> hence the lack of braces
23:09:18 <tusho> AnMaster: perl is for anarchists who are just generally in an orgy with everyone all the time
23:09:18 <moozilla> well from now on im coding only in brainfuck
23:09:22 <lament> and the lack of explicit references
23:09:27 <pikhq> I'm a Tcler, myself. The spirit of Tcl is: yes, Tcl supports that feature, though you may have to do some radical language modification at runtime. ;p
23:09:31 <moozilla> im gonna code my interpreter in brainfuck :P
23:09:32 <AnMaster> *I saw an m4 script that added braces to python*
23:09:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: I've heard of an M4 script that added objects to C.
23:09:49 <lament> AnMaster: anybody who wants to add braces to python is a complete idiot
23:09:56 <pikhq> Ask Gregor for the link; he wrote it.
23:09:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes didn't GregorR make that one?
23:10:00 <tusho> lament: there's a python _encoding_ that makes it do braces
23:10:05 <tusho> that hijacks the # encoding: foo line
23:10:09 <tusho> (yes, it's a joke)
23:10:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: I said as much.
23:10:26 <tusho> AnMaster: you'd actually use it, though
23:10:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, objects in c would be fun with m4
23:10:29 <tusho> see, python users go, 'hahaha, nice one'
23:10:31 <lament> tusho: there's also a python extension called iirc 'shootfoot' that gives you direct memory access
23:10:42 <tusho> AnMaster: case in point:
23:10:45 <tusho> >>> from __future__ import braces
23:10:45 <tusho> File "<stdin>", line 1
23:10:45 <tusho> SyntaxError: not a chance
23:10:56 <AnMaster> tusho, I know about that easter egg
23:11:27 <lament> braces are a historical accident. If you get too attached to historical accidents, that means You're Old.
23:11:38 <AnMaster> lament, now just make a compiler for python :D
23:11:44 <lament> "ah, braces, just like in the good old days"
23:11:46 <pikhq> moozilla: When coding in C#, just keep in mind: in the esolang community, C# *is* an esolang. And not one of the ones we're fond of.
23:12:03 <pikhq> (I, at least, hold C# in the same regard as LOLCODE)
23:12:04 <tusho> at least two people here like bracse
23:12:14 <tusho> damn multithreaded convos
23:12:16 <AnMaster> lament, to write a kernel in python *ducks*
23:12:21 <lament> pikhq: C# is really quite wonderful
23:12:25 <tusho> but yeah, I think, pikhq, you mean 'in the pikhq community'
23:12:36 <tusho> because I respect C# and think it's quite a good language, and lament does too
23:12:42 <tusho> AnMaster isn't _too_ against it :P
23:12:43 <lament> pikhq: they got lambdas and map/filter and some type inference
23:12:44 <pikhq> lament: Sure, if you like a standard library larger than you can hold in your head.
23:12:52 <AnMaster> yes the syntax of C# is quite nice
23:12:56 <AnMaster> however the runtime is horrible
23:13:00 <lament> pikhq: yes, of course i like it
23:13:07 <lament> pikhq: i don't want to reinvent any wheels
23:13:09 <pikhq> (not that, say, C++ is much better about that)
23:13:27 <lament> pikhq: i don't need to hold it in my hand, there's MSDN for that
23:13:30 <tusho> GregorR: And C#? :P
23:13:34 <AnMaster> GregorR, link to m4 macro for object orientated C?
23:13:42 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yeahyeahyeah, gimme a sec.
23:13:43 <lament> pikhq: head. I don't need that either.
23:13:46 <tusho> lament: However. Obj-C > C#. Agreed?
23:13:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, should I use it, or was it a joke?
23:13:58 <tusho> lament: Well, if it had a standard library/
23:13:59 <lament> ObjC is kind of a joke
23:14:04 <GregorR> AnMaster: It was somewhere in between serious and a joke ...
23:14:08 <lament> it does have a standard library, it's called cocoa
23:14:12 <GregorR> AnMaster: If you want to use it, I would recommend improving it a bit first.
23:14:19 <tusho> Obj-C isn't a joke :'(
23:14:36 <AnMaster> moozilla, well the link? did I miss it?
23:14:42 <lament> tusho: C# is an actual programming language. ObjC is a completely alien object system tacked onto C in a fairly ugly fashion.
23:14:53 <pikhq> For all those backing C#: I also hate Java.
23:15:05 <pikhq> So, anything C# has in common with Java, I despise.
23:15:23 <pikhq> Meaning: I just fucking hate C#.
23:15:26 <lament> tusho: even Java has generics nowadays
23:15:32 <lament> tusho: ObjC, not a chance
23:15:40 <tusho> lament: Obj-C is a dynamic language.
23:15:50 <lament> if i want a dynamic language
23:15:56 <lament> i'll pick python over objc every time
23:16:10 <lament> objc is incredibly verbose and stupid
23:16:20 <lament> python is amazingly concise and powerful
23:16:50 <lament> writing in objc involves a lot of writing stuff twice or even more
23:17:54 <GregorR> AnMaster: http://codu.org/m4c-2008-07-02.tar.bz2
23:18:01 <lament> consider: this is how you do string concatenation in objc/cocoa
23:18:09 <lament> [fooString stringByAppendingString: barString]
23:18:26 <tusho> lament: yes, that's cocoa
23:18:34 <lament> cocoa/nextstep/gnustep
23:18:34 <tusho> cocoa is fairly retarded in its verbosity.
23:18:44 <lament> there's no alternative
23:18:46 <tusho> with a nice standard library...
23:18:50 <tusho> lament: i know there isn't
23:18:55 <tusho> then it'd be very nice
23:18:58 <lament> python would still win
23:19:03 <lament> because in python it's fooString + barString
23:19:08 <lament> and in objc you can't have that
23:19:20 <tusho> lament: [fooString concat: barString]
23:19:50 <GregorR> Yay, www.www.extra-www.org is mentioned on no-www.org 8-D
23:20:00 <tusho> GregorR: wot, really?
23:20:04 <tusho> GregorR: that site hasn't been updated for like years
23:20:05 <lament> how do you access the last element of an array in cocoa?
23:20:26 <lament> [foo objectAtIndex:[foo length] - 1]
23:20:30 <tusho> AnMaster: the news section
23:20:32 <GregorR> AnMaster: ... the very topmost post ...
23:20:39 <lament> conclusion: objc just fucking sucks
23:21:04 <pikhq> In C: foo[sizeof(foo) - 1] or foo[size_t_of_foo_here - 1]. ;)
23:21:09 <tusho> GregorR: where have you spreaded this thing :P
23:21:12 <pikhq> Conclusion: I <3 C.
23:21:17 <lament> actually, in cocoa, it's [foo lastObject]
23:21:33 <lament> which is even more retarded
23:21:48 <lament> because you need to memorize an extra method where in python there is no need for one
23:22:00 <pikhq> In Tcl? Good luck; arrays are associative arrays.
23:23:00 <AnMaster> that would be another object in C
23:23:09 <tusho> GregorR: where did you post this :P
23:23:13 <lament> AnMaster: C is not Python
23:23:28 <lament> tusho: basically almost all i like about objective C is that it's C :)
23:23:33 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, it wouldn't. It would be undefined behavior. ;)
23:24:20 <AnMaster> GregorR, btw I'm in no-www's B class iird
23:24:33 <AnMaster> my www redirects to non-www one
23:26:26 <AnMaster> GregorR, and your validator is slow
23:26:30 <lament> GregorR: i love it how they link to you as http://extra-www.org
23:27:30 <GregorR> lament: Note that I link them as www.www.no-www.org :)
23:27:31 <tusho> GregorR: dude, I can't access http://www.www.www.extra-www.org/ without a redirect
23:27:38 <tusho> why can't we use grossly excessive amounts of wwww.
23:27:58 <GregorR> tusho: Honestly, it's because I don't have direct access to the host system, so I can't set up arbitrary vhosts.
23:28:18 <tusho> http://www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.extra-www.org.ogr.org.org.org.org.org.org/
23:28:28 <tusho> it's spellign crocecitng
23:28:38 <GregorR> tusho: Once you own org.org, you may as well put ogr.org... under it :P
23:29:03 <lament> i'm all for deprecating www
23:29:15 <tusho> omg, someone owns org.org
23:29:19 <lament> but a far more useful thing would be to eliminate TLDs
23:29:27 <tusho> lament: well, they effectively did
23:29:31 <tusho> now that you can buy tlds...
23:29:40 <lament> you can? That went through?
23:30:01 <tusho> it costs a couple hundred thousand
23:30:05 <tusho> but yay, now icann fucked up the internet
23:30:12 <tusho> i just love corporate branding tlds
23:30:22 <lament> i guess it's not that bad
23:30:22 <pikhq> I'm on an alternate DNS root. Glee.
23:30:25 <lament> because nobody will buy those domains
23:30:28 <tusho> lament: i want http://fuck.icann/
23:30:31 <lament> so it's as if they never existed
23:30:32 <tusho> and apparently ebay etc are considering it
23:31:04 <tusho> anyway, GregorR wants libc6.so when somalia gets itself a government
23:32:03 <tusho> oh, and the wordpress guy has ma.tt
23:32:07 <tusho> how did he get that?
23:32:13 <AnMaster> <tusho> anyway, GregorR wants libc6.so when somalia gets itself a government
23:32:40 <AnMaster> tusho, in Sweden .nu is popular
23:32:47 <tusho> it means 'new' right?
23:33:19 <tusho> you know, my world was shattered when i found out you couldn't get second-level .uk domains
23:33:28 <tusho> I wanted xx.uk where xx is two letters
23:33:32 <tusho> so i could have all the domains I ever wanted..
23:33:42 <tusho> "you know, my world was shattered when i found out you couldn't get second-level .uk domains"
23:33:57 <tusho> AnMaster: YES THAT'S WHY I SAID IT
23:33:59 <AnMaster> I think you need some such for private persons too
23:34:08 <AnMaster> tusho, yes but I like the UK systems
23:34:09 <GregorR> tusho, AnMaster: Yes, I've stated that before, except libc.so, not libc6.so
23:34:23 <tusho> AnMaster: no, because everyone just uses .co.uk or .com
23:34:35 <AnMaster> tusho, what does private persons use?
23:34:49 <tusho> there is .me.uk but about 3 people use it
23:34:51 <tusho> (kind of like .name)
23:35:01 <tusho> AnMaster: and .com is for commercial stuff
23:35:05 <tusho> does anyone respect that?
23:35:11 <tusho> and .info is just a spam trap
23:35:15 <GregorR> choosemyhat.com is totally a commercial entity.
23:35:18 <tusho> every website on .info ought to move
23:35:31 <tusho> AnMaster: it's filled with viagra and google adspam
23:35:34 <tusho> loads of people won't click .info
23:35:36 * pikhq needs to get a site on .geek
23:35:38 <tusho> and quite a few sites block .info referers
23:35:52 <tusho> pikhq: I prefer domains people can reach
23:36:22 <moozilla> .info domains cost like 3$ less
23:36:25 <pikhq> The normal DNS root pisses me off these days.
23:36:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is what the majority of the world's population use
23:37:08 <tusho> moozilla: because they're unvaluable because of the spam
23:37:12 <moozilla> here's the interpreter: http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/27/428255/interpreter.rar
23:37:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: And it's getting fairly terrible.
23:37:59 <AnMaster> moozilla, I could use unrar I guess
23:38:24 <moozilla> http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/11/27/428255/interpreter.zip
23:38:28 <AnMaster> moozilla, in the future know that I prefer .tar.bz2
23:38:39 <lament> rar compresses better, though
23:39:01 <AnMaster> lament, well there is .tar.lzma too
23:39:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: BTW, OpenNIC also mirrors the standard ICANN TLDs.
23:39:10 <GregorR> rar = giant PITA on everything that isn't Windows.
23:39:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, also why don't you like the normal dns root
23:39:31 <lament> GregorR: unrar works just fine for me.
23:39:46 <pikhq> Not been paying attention in recent years?
23:39:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, well I know about this new tld crap
23:40:26 <pikhq> They've also jiggered the domain registration regulations specifically to allow domain camping.
23:40:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, what is domain camping?
23:40:41 <tusho> pikhq: lol, AnMaster trusts icann more than a non-profit
23:40:46 <tusho> *lol* *lol* *lol* *lol*
23:41:05 <pikhq> Buying a domain and just sitting on it, waiting for the highest bidder.
23:41:32 <moozilla> sounds like an easy way to make money
23:41:52 <pikhq> Among other things, domain campers can do a 'taste testing' of a domain, picking it up, waiting a week, and then asking for a refund now.
23:41:55 <lament> it is, that's why all the good ones are already bought
23:42:01 <pikhq> (and do that forever, actually)
23:42:23 <tusho> when I was young and naive I thought i'd be able to get syntax-error.com
23:42:48 <pikhq> And, of course, they keep on creating pointless TLDs.
23:45:01 <lament> can't write .orgasm without. org
23:45:18 <moozilla> with org sites im like "fuck was it .org or .net"
23:45:33 <AnMaster> .net is for network related stuff
23:45:56 <tusho> you know the best bit?
23:46:00 <tusho> if asm.org releases a java lib
23:46:05 <tusho> they'll have to call it org.asm.stuff
23:46:12 <tusho> by the java package naming standards
23:46:16 <GregorR> GREGOR HATE SHOE SHOPPING ARGH
23:46:34 <GregorR> I've narrowed down the shoes I can wear to: non-leather, non-synthetic-leather, non-green (in the literal sense) shoes.
23:47:04 <tusho> GregorR: choosemyshoes.com
23:47:35 <GregorR> I'm allergic to chromium, which is used to tan virtually all leather.
23:47:43 <GregorR> And, as I learned quite painfully, used to tan synthetic leather too.
23:47:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, what about trainers or whatever they are called in English?
23:47:57 <tusho> GregorR: choosemyshoes.com
23:48:02 <GregorR> AnMaster: Uh, canvas shoes?
23:48:17 <GregorR> AnMaster: They usually have some supporting leather or stylistic leather in them.
23:48:32 <GregorR> AnMaster: (In my experience)
23:48:36 <AnMaster> GregorR, what did you have before then?
23:48:39 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
23:49:02 <GregorR> AnMaster: I lucked out on a pair of totally-synthetic-leather-free vegan shoes, and before that there was one company that sold non-chromium-tanned leather shoes.
23:49:14 <GregorR> AnMaster: And before that I had severe dermatitis of the foot for ten years.
23:49:19 <tusho> GregorR: Are you a vegan? :-P
23:49:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, well contact a foot doctor and ask if they know of some good place to buy
23:49:39 <GregorR> tusho: No, and I try to make sure I eat a ham sandwich while I buy vegan shoes so that nobody thinks otherwise.
23:49:46 <tusho> GregorR: Hahahahaha.
23:49:49 <GregorR> AnMaster: Where do you think I learned of my allergy in the first place?
23:50:02 <GregorR> AnMaster: My dermatologist's response was, paraphrasing, "you're screwed"
23:50:31 <GregorR> Believe me, I've had this for years, it's just that there's nowhere I can /consistently/ find chromium-free shoes.
23:50:34 <GregorR> AnMaster: Wooden would work :P
23:50:41 <GregorR> AnMaster: Tough to find wooden shoes in Portland, OR though :P
23:51:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, go on using old pair?
23:51:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, and if you find any: buy a stock
23:52:02 -!- timotiis has quit (Connection timed out).
23:52:12 -!- AAA_AAA has changed nick to Quendus.
23:52:13 <AnMaster> GregorR, also what country is that?
23:52:29 <GregorR> AnMaster: 1) My shoes have holes in them :P, 2) I really should've thought to buy a stock in the first place, 3) US.
23:53:34 <GregorR> The English word is "we don't repair our shoes" :P
23:53:45 <GregorR> But in reality, they're not very good shoes, I'd love to replace them.