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04:57:18 <immibis> ...what happened to the topic?
05:07:11 <immibis> and where's egobot? i was going to submit a fukyorbrane program but he's not here
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06:03:58 <immibis> also i found several bugs in fukyorbrane-a0.6
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09:06:56 <immibis> ...why was my name bobby...even my real names not bobby...
09:07:19 <AnMaster> immibis, egobot: no idea what happened to it
09:07:38 <immibis> probably nobody decided to run it
09:07:49 <immibis> topic: "fuck man i'm haf fah m'o nam kcuf"
09:07:51 <AnMaster> someone wrote "fuck man i'm haf" in a esolang spec
09:08:02 <AnMaster> turned out he was high when he did it
09:08:18 <AnMaster> somehow, not sure who did it, it ended up in topic
09:08:29 <AnMaster> immibis, ask tusho/ehird when he gets here
09:08:36 <AnMaster> he should know why it is in topic
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10:15:31 <oklopol> ais523: i want a lesson. would've wanted earlier, but i was seriously wondering whether i could fly to england for the lesson
10:16:01 <oklopol> but i don't think i have the balls for that.
10:16:16 * oklopol slaps oklopol with a serious trout
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11:53:42 <Slereah_> As soon as I'll know how to do it.
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12:24:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I updated the mini-funge specs to work with Funge-108 and included it as an appendix and an optional extension "but if you do something like this, it is RECOMMENDED you select this variant"
12:25:43 <AnMaster> http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/
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15:08:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so which minifunge specs did you pick
15:09:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, see appendix C in http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/
15:10:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, slightly modified to support the more modern URI fingerprints
15:10:23 <AnMaster> fingerprints should be renamed I think btw
15:10:36 <AnMaster> as fingerprint is the string like TURT
15:10:38 <Deewiant> btw, some of the D.1 interpreters can do 93 as well as 98
15:10:46 <AnMaster> otherwise we would call them URIs
15:11:37 <Deewiant> but some of them definitely can
15:12:13 <Deewiant> FBBI, !Befunge, RC/Funge-98 - maybe
15:12:20 <Deewiant> jsbef and zfunge, don't think so
15:12:59 <AnMaster> and cfunge can semi-handle b93
15:13:05 <AnMaster> it can handle all important differences
15:13:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but thanks I'll insert a note
15:13:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: eh, "this system is based around the mini-funge..." you said it's !Befunge but you don't even mention it there :-)
15:14:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I do mention Lee (2003)
15:14:59 <Deewiant> since you say "here are the specs... see Lee (2003) for current version"
15:15:06 <Deewiant> and then you say "these specs are based on <not Lee>"
15:17:26 <Deewiant> err crap, how do I copy from foxit
15:18:04 <AnMaster> Dynamic fingerprints (Lee, 2003), also known as mini-funge, is a standard for cross-funge-implemenation fingerprint implementations. This is completely optional in Funge108 and will not be mandated in future standards either. However if a dynamic finger print system is implemented it is RECOMMENDED that the one described here is used for maximum compatiblity with other implementations. This is a revis
15:18:05 <AnMaster> ed version of the ``Dynamic fingerprints 1.2'' as implemented in !Befunge (Jeffrey Lee, 2005). The changes that have been done is to change filename and related syntax to allow Funge-108 style URIs for fingerprints.
15:18:16 <AnMaster> um should say just (Lee, 2005)
15:18:25 <Deewiant> Note that the dynamic fingerprint may inherit some of the constraints of the callee’s
15:18:28 <Deewiant> environment, such as limited fungespace/stack size or lack of file access commands. The y
15:18:32 <Deewiant> instruction should be used to query these if needed.
15:18:44 <Deewiant> y Kill haunted Causes the haunted IP (and its ghost) to be killed.
15:18:50 <AnMaster> but that is from his original specs
15:18:54 <Deewiant> so you have two conflicting meanings for y
15:19:09 <Deewiant> but y has specifically been redefined for that purpose
15:19:58 <Deewiant> but that's for the haunted and not the ghost
15:20:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: also, eh, "finally tracked down copies of"... I have copies of everything on my mycology comparison page :-P
15:21:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is copied from his version
15:21:32 <Deewiant> and btw, CCBI's system is RC/Funge-98's
15:23:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I checked the !befunge dynafing.c, it doesn't even mention that use for y
15:23:10 <Deewiant> enough, I think, that I won't bother to switch :-P
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15:24:00 <AnMaster> so what about using X for killing?
15:24:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you can see it here for instance: http://www.imaginaryrobots.net/projects/funge/rcfunge.txt
15:24:58 <Deewiant> like that said, "this is going against the grain a bit" ;-)
15:25:17 <AnMaster> I think the !Befunge one is neater
15:25:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe I'll combine them
15:25:49 <Deewiant> it'd be nice if you enumerated the differences
15:26:04 <Deewiant> have a table in your PDF which compares all three
15:26:57 <Deewiant> !Befunge-type, zfunge-type, your combination
15:27:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway rcfunge one is more restricted
15:27:13 <AnMaster> as it doesn't allow stuff like loading fingerprints inside the ghost
15:27:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, certainly, you could load FILE and use something
15:27:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you can't use t however
15:29:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, another difference: g and G are reversed
15:29:21 <AnMaster> in !befunge P and G changes in the haunted ip
15:29:38 <AnMaster> while in rc-funge that is reversed
15:30:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, apart from that !Befunge one just have more features it seems
15:31:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if not noted otherwise the !befunge one's instruction by default work on the fingerprint, nothing else
15:32:45 <Deewiant> and I thought it might mean a lot of changes to my current mini-funge hac^Wimpl
15:33:01 <Deewiant> might be fairly easy if I wanted to do it
15:33:18 <Deewiant> even my current mini-funge is hardly tested
15:33:25 <AnMaster> for cfunge I would just need multiple funge spaces + different main loop
15:33:31 <Deewiant> I wrote it really quickly after I thought I had everything done
15:33:49 <Deewiant> I was like "oh, crap, yeah, mini-funge"
15:34:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: do you pass the IP to instructions?
15:34:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I'm not sure cfunge will implement mini-funge
15:34:34 <Deewiant> or do you use a global or some such
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15:34:50 <AnMaster> I don't pass funge space around
15:35:14 <AnMaster> well a static + interface using functions only
15:35:20 <AnMaster> so you can't just modify it directly
15:36:26 <Deewiant> in CCBI the current IP is a global but a funge-space pointer is carried around by each Ip
15:36:49 <Deewiant> I think funge-space was originally a global too
15:37:01 <Deewiant> and the main one actually still is
15:37:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I don't plan to change the main funge space from a global
15:37:22 <AnMaster> it's way faster to access it in the current way
15:37:37 <Deewiant> it might even be faster when it's local, actually
15:37:51 <Deewiant> might explain the speed difference between CCBI and cfunge ;-)
15:38:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there are other parts too
15:38:17 <AnMaster> like using switch not function pointers
15:38:37 <Deewiant> the only significant difference that I suspect is the associative array
15:38:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is the ccbi MHz / native MHz ratio?
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15:39:58 <AnMaster> cfunge can do about 15 MHz / second in mycology when no fingerprints are done and environment is small
15:40:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that assumes non-concurrent support too
15:40:58 <AnMaster> for concurrent support around 12 MHz
15:41:23 <Deewiant> so that's just a timing from start of main loop (after loading) to after?
15:41:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually just runtime
15:42:23 <Deewiant> then you can get it from CCBI easily, since ccbi -c gives the number of instructions executed (and ticks)
15:42:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that isn't fair unless you can give be a 64-bit ccbi
15:42:54 <AnMaster> amd64 got a way better calling convention
15:44:08 <AnMaster> anyway I hoped ais would show up before I went to norway tomorrow
15:44:38 <AnMaster> I renamed a #define he uses, to be able to do funge98 and funge108 handprints
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15:59:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm adding a bulk copy instruction.
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16:01:24 <AnMaster> to transfer data between haunted and ghost
16:09:59 <AnMaster> as i and o in ghost would operate on ghost funge space
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16:12:29 <tusho> AnMaster: why isn't he here?
16:13:34 <tusho> he's normally here..
16:13:42 <tusho> typical, he goes one day after rebuilding the eso machine
16:14:08 <AnMaster> tusho, I wish to join eso after I get back from Norway in two days time
16:14:18 <AnMaster> as I'm leaving tomorrow morning and then staying one night
16:14:33 <AnMaster> so the day after the day after tomorrow
16:14:55 <tusho> AnMaster: as long as you don't argue too much, me and ais fill up the argument space just fine as it is :P
16:15:10 <AnMaster> tusho, well I'll mainly work with funge108
16:15:29 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, we'll have to see about that once we figure out what format we're using for the standards
16:15:33 <tusho> it's not as simple as you think
16:15:44 <tusho> we want _semantic_ data (NOT the typesetting data that tex does)
16:15:54 <tusho> but we don't want it to be unusable for our purposes (xml2rfc),
16:16:04 <tusho> or really horrible (loads of stuff)
16:16:09 <tusho> also, we want superb HTML support
16:16:17 <tusho> which kind of excludes LyX
16:16:18 <AnMaster> tusho, ok maybe Funge108 will not be done under eso then
16:16:31 <AnMaster> even if LaTeX does support exporting to html
16:16:31 <tusho> AnMaster: it's not that hard to convert it at the end
16:16:47 <AnMaster> tusho, well the pdf one will be the official one
16:17:02 <tusho> AnMaster: A propietary format as the official version?
16:17:07 <tusho> Yeah, um, no, ESO will NOT do that.
16:17:15 <AnMaster> tusho, no right, I can export to text
16:17:26 <AnMaster> anyway LaTeX one will be official
16:18:58 <tusho> AnMaster: I thought LyX was going to be the official
16:19:15 <AnMaster> tusho, well that is a semi-proprietary compared to LaTeX
16:19:22 <tusho> lyx is open source
16:19:30 <AnMaster> tusho, yes but just one implementation
16:19:38 <AnMaster> so not as free and open as LaTeX
16:20:01 <tusho> ESO will use ruby heavily, that's a language without a spec :P
16:20:16 <tusho> AnMaster: just like python, perl, ...
16:20:34 <AnMaster> well you just gave me another reason to not use those languages
16:20:45 <tusho> AnMaster: work on a ruby spec is underway
16:20:47 <tusho> and going quite well
16:20:51 <tusho> the same cannot be said for python, perl
16:21:03 <tusho> AnMaster: does erlang have a spec?
16:21:19 <tusho> there's only one implementation that I know of, though
16:21:19 <AnMaster> tusho, and there is always ADA
16:21:40 <tusho> AnMaster: oh, and we don't actually use the official ruby interp
16:21:52 <tusho> we use a fork of it which has a copy-on-write garbage collector and uses quite a bit less memory
16:21:58 <tusho> and is faster at serving web apps
16:22:07 <tusho> the only bad bit about it is its awful awful name
16:22:10 <tusho> 'Ruby Enterprise Edition', I mean wtf
16:22:45 <tusho> which makes the name even more ridiculous
16:23:14 <tusho> it's from the same company that makes Passenger
16:23:17 <AnMaster> tusho, why is this not in official ruby?
16:23:31 <tusho> AnMaster: i'm not exactly sure _why_ they forked and didn't try and integrate
16:23:41 <tusho> but, that's how it is
16:23:55 <tusho> AnMaster: it's that apache module I talked about
16:24:11 <tusho> it also supports python's WSGI
16:24:16 <tusho> but that's just a proof of concept kinda thing
16:24:20 <tusho> and there's already mod_wsgi for that :-P
16:24:40 <tusho> (wsgi=webserver gateway interface, basically a standard for python webframeworks to use so that they can plug into any web server)
16:25:07 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway lyx's own format sometimes breaks with updates, while LaTeX won't for years and years to come
16:25:15 <AnMaster> so that is another good reason to export it to latex
16:25:40 <tusho> anyway, maybe once we've devised the format you might change your mind, it'll look just like LyX, probably :-P
16:25:46 <tusho> either way we'll provide hosting
16:26:06 <AnMaster> tusho, however I may not be a real man, if you define that as masochism
16:26:26 <tusho> AnMaster: do you code in any language other than single bits of machine code?
16:26:51 <tusho> AnMaster: REAL MAN STATUS: REVOKED
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16:27:24 <tusho> AnMaster: you wouldn't know a joke if it hit you in the face until you died a bloody death after it whips away all your skin
16:27:51 <tusho> AnMaster: and I intentionally left mine off
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16:28:34 <AnMaster> tusho, well maybe you reached the level of $\approxeq$ then?
16:28:55 <tusho> AnMaster: oh, and we have decided never to let PHP or MySQL hit the server
16:29:00 <tusho> I mean, one because ... no, just no
16:29:06 <tusho> and two because it doesn't support Apache's worker version
16:29:08 <tusho> you have to use prefork
16:29:12 <tusho> the last time we used prefork?
16:29:15 <tusho> we got like 16MB left
16:29:20 <tusho> AnMaster: yeah, we'll have postgre
16:30:01 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, but we use Passenger and also a variety of crazy setups so it's not really an option
16:30:08 <tusho> (e.g. no /var/www)
16:30:25 <tusho> Arc Enterprise Edition
16:30:49 <AnMaster> tusho, you want a good front page too
16:31:05 <AnMaster> tusho, something looking like IETF one
16:31:24 <tusho> AnMaster: IETF's looks like it's from 1996
16:31:30 <tusho> but yes, we'll have a nice main page
16:31:44 <tusho> right now, eso-std.org just gives you a directory listing with this: http://eso-std.org/infinite-nah.html (requires JS)
16:32:00 <tusho> though http://code.eso-std.org/ has C-INTERCAL
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16:58:35 <AnMaster> tusho, will you host svn and bzr too?
16:59:03 <tusho> AnMaster: mercurial, yes
16:59:13 <tusho> bzr, yes, but I'll complain quietly :p
16:59:23 <tusho> svn ... only if absolutely, definitely, completely required
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17:02:05 <tusho> AnMaster: OVER MY DEAD BODY
17:02:31 <tusho> AnMaster: if an implementation of rcs in arc is provided, yes!
17:02:49 <tusho> AnMaster: it'd have to be in arc-php
17:03:00 <AnMaster> tusho, but you don't do php you said?
17:03:03 <tusho> and be controlled entirely with your mind and ajax
17:03:24 <AnMaster> tusho, so that only leaves git
17:03:45 <tusho> monotone is kinda neat
17:03:50 <tusho> tla is weiiiiiiiiird, but in a kind of cute way
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17:04:11 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, but without the craziness
17:04:26 <tusho> arch2 is fun because it is even crazier
17:04:35 <tusho> AnMaster: no bitkeeper though ;)
17:04:41 <tusho> it has filenames like {arch}/+foo
17:04:52 <tusho> and weird concepts of branches and trees and stuff
17:04:56 <tusho> that i never could really grasp
17:05:05 <tusho> steep learning curve, and I doubt it's any more useful than other VCS'
17:05:09 <tusho> but its fun for its craziness
17:05:24 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway bzr is happy with any http server, even if there is no directory listing, it only requires that 404 works correctly and doesn't do something crazy as redirecting
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17:05:59 <tusho> no pushing over http, though
17:06:01 <tusho> we'll never do that
17:06:21 <AnMaster> bzr can do smart server (bzr+ssh) or even plain sftp
17:06:30 <AnMaster> that doesn't need any server side support
17:07:35 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway does git need special server side support?
17:08:12 <tusho> AnMaster: no, you need git on the server though
17:08:16 <tusho> same for just about any vcs, really
17:08:18 <tusho> (most of them at least)
17:08:28 <AnMaster> well bzr can handle without that
17:08:46 <tusho> that's liket he least important thing ever
17:09:28 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway I host the funge108 spec in a bzr repo locally, could I get an account and push it to eso-std? XD
17:09:53 <tusho> never sudoers though
17:09:54 <AnMaster> for bzr repo browser I recommend logger head
17:10:02 <tusho> and we don't have browsers up right now
17:10:08 <tusho> me and ais are sudoers
17:10:33 <tusho> AnMaster: we are probably waiting until we find a browser that does multiple vcs' in one
17:10:35 <tusho> for consistency in the ui
17:10:48 <tusho> if there isn't, we'll write one
17:11:03 <AnMaster> tusho, you will write bzr support?
17:11:21 <tusho> i could shell out :-P
17:11:27 <tusho> I think there's a ruby-python bridge
17:12:38 <AnMaster> loggerhead runs as fcgi done the right way btw
17:13:20 <tusho> if I write it it'll predictably be in ruby+passenger
17:13:38 <tusho> and probably sinatra for the framework - http://sinatrarb.com/ - it's nice and minimal
17:13:51 * tusho stabs AnMaster repeatedly
17:14:13 <tusho> AnMaster: i'd tell you but i'm lazy :D
17:14:23 <AnMaster> well you got no reason to hate it then?
17:14:40 <tusho> I'm just too lazy to share all the reasons right now
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17:15:16 <AnMaster> yes it isn't the best bug tracker out there or the best wiki
17:15:31 <tusho> AnMaster: Buy me tusho.org and I'll post an article on it. :-P
17:18:34 <tusho> AnMaster: WELL THEN
17:27:28 <tusho> and CVSTrac certainly does
17:27:31 <tusho> (trac's inspiration)
17:27:33 <tusho> (made by sqlite author)
17:38:19 <Deewiant> it doesn't even implement all of SQL92 though :-/
17:39:05 <tusho> Deewiant: whatever
17:39:29 <Deewiant> http://www.sqlite.org/omitted.html for anybody who's a bit more interested
17:39:36 <tusho> Deewiant: yes, and?
17:40:03 <Deewiant> and? I find myself missing said omissions
17:40:16 <Deewiant> beyond that there is no "and".
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18:40:33 <Slereah_> AnMaster gentlemen, are you thar?
18:41:12 <AnMaster> leaving for norway tomorrow morning
18:43:25 <AnMaster> seeing the Fram Museum, Viking ship museum, and so on
18:45:03 <Slereah_> "Fram ("Forward") is a ship that was used in expeditions in the Arctic and Antarctic regions"
18:47:11 <Slereah_> Since I can't use any partition editing on my hard drive, the "chose your partition" part of the Linux install gets awkward.
18:47:59 <Slereah_> Is a segfault or whatever that is a physical flaw?
18:48:44 <pikhq> Can't use any partition editing on your hard drive?!?
18:49:10 <pikhq> What, are those blocks read-only or something?
18:49:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, he got some weird issue with his partition table that crash all partition editor
18:49:27 <oklopol> AnMaster: i think you somewhat confused me with Slereah_ there, but err, have a nice trippie.
18:49:36 <Slereah_> I tried Gparted, the partition list never loads.
18:49:50 <pikhq> Well, then, wipe the partition table.
18:49:50 <Slereah_> I tried Partition Magic, and the reboot gives me an error.
18:50:11 <AnMaster> Slereah_, gparted can take up to 10 minutes to load
18:50:14 <Slereah_> And will it wipe out what's on it.
18:50:36 <Slereah_> I got it to work before, so I knew what to expect.
18:50:39 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> oklopol, going to oslo
18:50:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, that was what I meant
18:50:44 <Slereah_> Although I could give it another try.
18:51:14 <oklopol> AnMaster: well i just thought it was a rather weird response to my o
18:51:49 <pikhq> Slereah_: To wipe the partition table, dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hard_drive_here count=1
18:52:03 <Slereah_> It is 17H51, and I am launching the "How do you want to partition the disk?" part of the Linux install.
18:52:11 <pikhq> And it won't necessarily wipe what's on it, it'll just make it *insanely* hard to access it. . .
18:52:15 <Slereah_> Let's see if something happens!
18:52:28 <Slereah_> Well then I'd better save what's left on it
18:52:32 <AnMaster> oklopol, I thought the o was a rather weird response to my "leaving for norway tomorrow morning"
18:52:53 <AnMaster> Slereah_, that will wipe everything on the disk
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18:53:02 <pikhq> Unless you know *exactly* what the partition table looks like (meaning: exactly how many blocks each partition is, and at which block those partitions start)
18:53:03 <oklopol> o is never a weird response
18:53:08 <AnMaster> if you plan to install windows do it first
18:53:15 <pikhq> AnMaster: The count=1 makes it only wipe the first block of the hard disk.
18:53:22 <pikhq> Which is the boot sector and the partition table.
18:53:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, yeah but do you know the details of it?
18:53:38 <Slereah_> What I actually really want to do is to save the rest of what remains on the disk (the Linux part that was admin only from yesterday)
18:53:56 <Slereah_> There's a million partition on it and it's falling apart
18:54:01 <AnMaster> Slereah_, if you plan to install windows too, install it first!
18:54:06 <pikhq> Well, then, take backups and nuke the partition table.
18:54:25 <pikhq> And AnMaster is right about that.
18:54:37 <pikhq> Windows is a bitch about installing alongside a working OS install.
18:54:43 <Slereah_> Well, for the backup, I must first access the Linux partition with admin priviledges :o
18:54:59 <pikhq> Linux is like "Oh, you've got Windows there. Care if I resize the partition to make some room?"
18:55:44 <AnMaster> gentoo is more like: well I expect you know what you are doing
18:55:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: Most distros are automated.
18:56:04 <pikhq> Gentoo, though, definitely assumes you know what you're doing.
18:56:15 <pikhq> The same applies for Slackware.
18:56:19 <fizzie> While FreeBSD is like http://isometric.sixsided.org/_/the_power_of_freebsd/
18:56:49 <Slereah_> Why don't you and freebsd geta room!
18:56:51 <pikhq> Never really seriously used any of the BSDs.
18:57:00 <AnMaster> <fizzie> While FreeBSD is like http://isometric.sixsided.org/_/the_power_of_freebsd/ <-- eh? don't get it
18:57:06 <AnMaster> freebsd even got a ncurses installer
18:57:17 <AnMaster> both assumes you know what you are doing however
18:57:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, and then what does LFS assume?
18:57:37 <pikhq> Except for using OS X as what amounts to a Darwin box with an insanely complex terminal display library.
18:58:32 <pikhq> That you a) know what you're doing b) *really* know what you're doing c) don't care about the potential for turning into an evil genius.
18:58:35 <fizzie> I had an OpenBSD router for a couple of years, back when Linux didn't have working IPv6 source-based routing. Can't remember the installer at all, though; the machine in question had only a serial terminal, so I'm guessing it must've been text-oriented.
18:58:38 <pikhq> And, yes, Cocoa is that library.
18:58:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, I have done hardened lfs a few times btw
18:59:04 <pikhq> I've only done normal LFS a few time.
18:59:23 * pikhq needs to get back on it, and try to make one insanely tiny Linux distro.
18:59:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is just a lot of questions
18:59:46 <AnMaster> Do you want to blah blah [Yn]?
19:00:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and checkboxes for package sets
19:00:58 <AnMaster> because 2.6 or even 2.4 is too large
19:01:11 <pikhq> Are you familiar with the linux-tiny tree?
19:02:06 <pikhq> It's a set of patches to the 2.6 kernel which allow one to make 2.6 really, really small. . .
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19:02:19 <AnMaster> what do the patches remove then?
19:03:12 <pikhq> Let's see here. . .
19:03:18 <pikhq> They allow you to remove sysfs. . .
19:03:49 <pikhq> They allow you to remove all printk calls (thereby getting rid of all the various error messages in the kernel). . .
19:04:26 <tusho_> <pikhq> Except for using OS X as what amounts to a Darwin box with an insanely complex terminal display library.
19:04:35 <pikhq> They get rid of /proc, should you wish. . .
19:04:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, that will break stuff like strace
19:05:16 <pikhq> No more than using Linux 2.2.
19:05:28 <pikhq> Busybox can handle it, BTW.
19:05:30 <tusho_> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGG
19:05:40 <AnMaster> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGg
19:06:06 <pikhq> Getting rid of sysfs breaks a lot of things, too. . .
19:06:33 <pikhq> You can't say root=/dev/hda1, because sysfs is what allows the kernel to map that without /dev/ up and running.
19:06:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, so what do you say then?
19:06:59 <pikhq> For /dev/hda1? 0x0301.
19:07:40 <pikhq> (major and minor of the device node in question)
19:07:52 <fizzie> Major and minor device numbers there. So 'ls -l' in a working /dev will tell you.
19:09:34 -!- tusho_ has changed nick to tusho.
19:10:43 <AnMaster> tusho, can you /msg email for ais?
19:14:36 <pikhq> The various linux-tiny patches are currently being updated so that they can be stuck into the mainline kernel.
19:16:04 <pikhq> People using these patches have gotten the kernel down to... 197K.
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19:20:38 <pikhq> I'm definitely going to have to play around with this.
19:21:05 <pikhq> Hmm. How much space would you say uclibc+busybox would take?
19:24:10 * pikhq wants to see the OS be able to run in situations that DOS would find a bit confining. :p
19:24:39 <tusho> pikhq: I wonder how small you could get Plan 9.
19:24:45 <tusho> With rio and acme, of course.
19:24:53 <tusho> Plan 9's GUI is one of the nicest things about it.
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19:42:03 * pikhq is also curious if uclinux would be even smaller
19:42:28 * pikhq will be pleased if he can get a Unix up and running on an 8086.
19:43:51 <tusho> pikhq: busybox is kinda big
19:43:55 <tusho> reimplement the stuff yourself!
19:44:17 <pikhq> If I reimplement stuff myself, then I'll end up with something that's not UNIX.
19:44:29 <pikhq> "I call it... UNIX++"
19:45:42 <tusho> pikhq: Well, okay then
19:45:46 <tusho> tiny-linux + busybox
19:45:51 <tusho> There's more minimal, I think
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19:46:09 <tusho> How big is dietlibc?
19:46:15 <tusho> I think really small.
19:47:02 <tusho> AnMaster: That's not linux-tiny.
19:47:31 <AnMaster> tusho, also what about newlib?
19:47:41 <tusho> AnMaster: It also can't run anything made in the past ever.
19:47:43 <pikhq> It also won't run on most systems.
19:47:56 <pikhq> Among other things, Linux 0.1 has a hard-coded keyboard map. . .
19:47:57 <tusho> Pretty sure dietlibc is the smallest.
19:48:02 <pikhq> A Swedish keyboard map.
19:48:12 <pikhq> And it doesn't do this newfangled 'IDE' thing, either.
19:48:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh? that's very useful :)
19:48:41 <tusho> pikhq: Say, you should make the focus of your kernel the smallest POSIX system evar.
19:49:14 <tusho> AnMaster: No, he'd have to reimplement just about everything.
19:49:41 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure it's shell isn't fully posix compatible
19:49:56 <pikhq> Well, if I try to make the smallest POSIX system ever, I'm going to have 'fun' in 8086 assembly.
19:51:02 <tusho> pikhq: Sounds good!
19:51:12 <tusho> Don't tell AnMaster though.
19:51:17 <tusho> He'll want you to make the smallest POSIX system ever PORTABLE.
19:51:47 <AnMaster> an OS can't be portable on that level
19:51:57 <tusho> AnMaster: He'll have to do just about all of it in assembly.
19:52:34 <Slereah_> Well, the linux partition is back on /mnt/linux/
19:52:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, what calling convention would be the smallest? I bet passing stuff in registers would be best
19:54:10 <pikhq> Passing stuff in registers is the standard convention on x86.
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19:55:00 <pikhq> (the 8086 instruction set makes passing stuff in registers the easiest thing to do)
19:55:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm pretty sure linux pass stuff on the stack
19:55:49 <pikhq> Sorry, I was thinking of x86_64. XD
19:55:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, and yes I know it is for x86_64
19:56:45 <pikhq> Well, at this point, it almost makes me want to say 'fuck POSIX' and just make a ridiculously small OS.
19:56:59 <pikhq> With multitasking, of course.
19:57:24 <pikhq> If I bother to port uIP.
19:57:36 <pikhq> (uIP: a TCP/IP stack in 8k or less)
19:58:01 <pikhq> IPv6? Fuck no. That's kinda hard to do with the 'ridiculously small' portion.
19:58:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, another idea: would memory footprint have to be as small?
19:58:36 <AnMaster> otherwise if it is just disk space... compressing + a loader for that
19:58:57 <pikhq> Memory footprint would have to be damned small, too.
19:58:57 <tusho> pikhq: But the POSIX is the fun.
19:59:18 <pikhq> Not necessarily the same as on-disk, but dammit, if it can't run on an 8086, I'm not happy. :p
19:59:24 <pikhq> (kidding. I think.)
20:00:00 <AnMaster> tusho, is X11 required for POSIX really!?
20:00:12 <pikhq> Hrm. Getting it to run on an 8086 means that the idea of a driver layer is not strictly required.
20:00:26 <pikhq> BIOS calls are actually useful from 16-bit code, after all.
20:01:17 <AnMaster> heck you can do that from 32-bit mode too
20:01:26 <pikhq> Nowhere near as easily.
20:02:41 <AnMaster> Poppler is worse than sendmail when it comes to security bugs...
20:02:53 <AnMaster> it is the pdf library used on linux most time
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20:07:23 <pikhq> Good lord. Now, I'm imagining an OS which actually takes advantage of the x86's segmented architecture.
20:08:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, how would it take advantage of it?
20:09:35 <tusho> pikhq: As long as it runs x11!
20:10:00 <pikhq> Each process has 1 or more segments. The kernel stores each process's program counter every time the kernel is entered. . . To task switch, it just jumps into that segment. . .
20:10:19 <tusho> pikhq: As long as it runs x11!
20:11:44 <pikhq> Also, by doing so, it actually gets protected memory from the 286.
20:12:51 <pikhq> And I don't have to worry about malloc.
20:13:39 <pikhq> And, yes, this is ridiculously simple.
20:18:10 <pikhq> tusho: Not unless you want to write the X11 driver.
20:18:16 <tusho> pikhq: Shut up. :p
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20:40:57 <Hiato> Who here is using XChat and is willing to answer a quick question?
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20:42:50 <Hiato> Heh, why thank you Slereah_
20:43:12 <Hiato> Naah, no worries :)
20:43:54 <Hiato> tusho: how do you set it to automatically go /msg what what password for Freenode?
20:44:12 <tusho> Hiato: check the server settings
20:44:14 <tusho> it's Server password
20:45:51 <Hiato> err... right, I can't seem to find the said setting (pardon my ignorance)
20:46:32 <tusho> Hiato: go into the connection list
20:46:38 <tusho> and fill in the password field
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21:15:34 <Slereah_> Well, I got my stuff out of the Linux partition.
21:15:51 <Slereah_> Now, all there is is to squeeze out the last files from the broken HD.
21:16:11 <Slereah_> Fuck you hard drive, you're going to hell.
21:17:05 <Slereah_> Against all laws of physics, not a single piece of information will remain.
21:17:35 <Slereah_> If the hard drive emitted EM waves during its life, they will disappear, just like that!
21:23:43 <AnMaster> going to norway for 2 days cya
21:24:28 <Slereah_> And remember : Get Inspector Gadget
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21:29:50 <oerjan> inspector gadget is in norway?
21:29:59 <tusho> oerjan: anywhere but sweden, apparently
21:30:12 <Slereah_> But Anmaster never saw Inspector Gadget
21:30:13 * oerjan sidles to his underground shelter, just in case
21:30:19 <Slereah_> He doesn't even know what it is D:
21:32:00 * oerjan doesn't know what that is
21:32:21 <Slereah_> Come on, David Motherfucking Hasselhoff!
21:32:46 <Slereah_> You... you do know what Inspector Gadget is, at least, yes?
21:33:01 <oerjan> Mind you, i don't actually watch TV other than when visiting family
21:33:16 <Slereah_> What, not even in the last 20 years?
21:33:27 <oerjan> so, since i have small cousins, i do barely know Inspector Gadget
21:33:45 <Slereah_> It's not like it's a recent thing or anything
21:35:38 <Slereah_> On the matter of the getting-my-last-files-out, I'm still on the letter A.
21:35:45 <Slereah_> I'm in for the whole night it seems
21:37:42 <tusho> Slereah_: doodaloodaloo inspector gadget
21:38:07 <Slereah_> tusho: The French theme song is way awesomer
21:38:47 <oerjan> it is possible knight rider was big in norway - there appears to be no norw. wikipedia entry on it
21:41:37 <oerjan> http://www.theyfightcrime.org/
21:42:33 <Slereah_> "He's an otherworldly ninja senator from the 'hood. She's a sarcastic snooty bounty hunter from a family of eight older brothers. They fight crime!"
21:42:40 <Slereah_> I would vote for a ninja senator.
21:43:24 <tusho> He's a one-legged bohemian master criminal with nothing left to lose. She's a hard-bitten psychic schoolgirl who dreams of becoming Elvis. They fight crime!
21:44:39 * oerjan was going to link to the corresponding tv-tropes trope he recalled, but thinks this may be better
21:46:05 <oerjan> ah there i found it too: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyFightCrime
21:46:43 <oerjan> (usual warnings about tvtropes addictivity apply)
21:47:02 <Slereah_> "He's a giant robot made out of robotic lions!"
21:47:50 <tusho> He's a lonely arachnophobic senator in a wheelchair. She's a time-travelling green-skinned detective from the wrong side of the tracks. They fight crime!
21:57:34 <Slereah_> "''I Was Kidnapped By Lesbian Pirates From Outer Space'' is a complicated post-feminist statement with shifting grounds of metaphor and symbolism, aiming to deconstruct both the uber-manly hero and the Amazon Brigade. Also, there are lesbian pirates. In outer space. Sometimes they kidnap people."
21:59:25 <oerjan> how much nuns could .. erm ..
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22:07:21 <Slereah_> "He's a suicidal drug-addicted vagrant on the hunt for the last specimen of a great and near-mythical creature. She's a tortured cat-loving nun with a flame-thrower. They fight crime!"
22:07:29 <Slereah_> A nun would FIGHT CRIME, oerjan
22:09:26 <oerjan> but of course. there was an example on the tvtropes page.
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22:24:54 <Slereah_> A man proposed me the following command to nuke fucking everything : dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/...
22:32:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("Nuking fucking everything is never wise").
22:35:22 <tusho> Are you sure it's all copied
22:35:46 <Slereah_> As much as I'm going to get out of this.
22:36:38 <tusho> Slereah_: OK. First make sure you have the right /dev/ entry for the HD.
22:36:45 <tusho> then $ sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/THEHD
22:36:57 <tusho> don't you want to keep it?
22:37:01 <tusho> Maybe you can leech more some other day
22:37:35 <Slereah_> I leeched everything from /home
22:37:53 <Slereah_> Which is pretty much all I want out of it
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22:42:01 <Slereah_> With the five partitions, sda1 through 5.
22:42:39 <Slereah_> Do I just use sda as the HD name?
22:46:50 <tusho> Slereah_: Yes. That's right.
22:47:08 <Slereah_> Well, I'll see you as soon as I reinstall XP.
22:47:17 <tusho> you have to wipe it first
22:47:32 <tusho> Slereah_: OK. But keep us updated on the wipe
22:47:40 <tusho> Why not just install jewnix.
22:47:53 <Slereah_> Because it is fucking terrible
22:48:07 <tusho> Slereah_: No it's... not?
22:48:20 <tusho> Slereah_: It DID just save all your data.
22:48:50 <Slereah_> Yeah, and I had to ask every step of the way
22:49:09 <tusho> Slereah_: But with US you have POWER!
22:49:14 <tusho> Which lunix are you using anyway
22:49:34 <tusho> Slereah_: Ubuntu's a bit more, uhh, retarded.
22:49:42 <Slereah_> What will I get once it's done? Five empty partition?
22:49:50 <tusho> Slereah_: Who knows?!
22:50:07 <tusho> Nope. I just know that that'll trash it.
22:51:30 <tusho> Slereah_: Anyway, if you don't install Ubuntu at the end of all of this, I'll eat you. For breakfast.
22:51:35 <tusho> It shall be painful.
22:52:03 <Slereah_> tusho: I get a new computer in roughly one month.
22:52:23 <Slereah_> I'm not getting involved in all that with that shit
22:52:30 <tusho> Slereah_: And you shall never boot into its windows, ever? First thing being putting an Ubuntu CD in? IF SO, THEN I SALUTE YOU
22:52:32 <tusho> IN A SALUTATIONAL WAY
22:52:57 <Slereah_> The new computer will be DUAL BOOTIES
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22:53:30 <tusho> Slereah_: Who will get a larger penis^H^H^H^H^Hpartition?
22:54:07 <Slereah_> It's only fair, since it will be the one to use it
22:54:17 <Slereah_> You know, with games that don't run at all on Linux.
22:55:07 <tusho> VMWare is not a name
22:55:15 <tusho> http://www.vmware.com/
22:56:51 <tusho> Slereah_: It lets you run windows in linux. And it's not like WINE, because it actually emulates a computer. (But it's not slow.)
22:56:55 <tusho> So it works perfectly. Always.
22:57:13 <Slereah_> I don't trust "It always works perfectly"
22:57:15 <tusho> The most recent games probably won't run on it because of graphicscardy stuff but you can always boot into windows for those.
22:57:19 <tusho> Slereah_: It actually emulates a whole CPU.
22:57:22 <tusho> And all the hardware.
22:57:24 <Slereah_> I also heard "You never have to reboot Linux"
22:57:28 <tusho> There's not much place for it to go wrong.
22:57:47 <tusho> You only have to reboot linux for kernel upgrades. But it's a lot more fuss if you don't.
22:57:49 <Slereah_> I will find a way to make it go wrong.
22:58:06 <tusho> Slereah_: no, I don't think you understand
22:58:16 <tusho> it actually builds, in software, a mini-computer
22:58:18 <tusho> then installs windows on it
22:59:04 <tusho> Slereah_: However.
22:59:06 <tusho> If you do make it go wrong.
22:59:11 <tusho> They'd love to know about it - their whole business depends on it.
22:59:12 <Slereah_> Wouldn't it be less efficient than using the actual computer
22:59:17 <tusho> And indeed loads of corporations use VMWare a lot.
22:59:37 <tusho> Slereah_: Yes. But most stuff should work on it, just not the most recent intensive games.
22:59:42 <tusho> So, yes, you still need a dualboot.
22:59:49 <tusho> But windows can have a smaller pen- partition
23:00:21 <Slereah_> What would I do with a giant partition for Linux?
23:01:12 <tusho> Slereah_: What you would do with the giant partition for Windows!
23:02:10 <Slereah_> Also by the way, what would you recommand as a distro
23:02:48 <tusho> It's like Kubuntu, but easier.
23:05:05 <Slereah_> ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda
23:05:05 <Slereah_> dd: writing to `/dev/sda': Input/output error
23:05:05 <Slereah_> 17705390080 bytes (18 GB) copied, 1014.53 seconds, 17.5 MB/s
23:05:33 <tusho> Slereah_: How big is the harddrive?
23:06:04 <tusho> Why are you wiping it, again?
23:06:37 <tusho> Slereah_: OK. Well. Odd.
23:06:41 <tusho> I don't know why that would happen.
23:08:33 <tusho> Slereah_: Godspeed.
23:08:45 <Slereah_> A thousand second isn't very speedy.
23:10:03 <tusho> Just make it go again
23:10:30 <Slereah_> If that fails too, I'll just try the tools on the XP CD to wipe it out.
23:10:38 <Slereah_> If that fails... Well, I dunno.
23:11:01 <poiuy_qwert> does anyone have an irc bot written in an esoteric programming language?
23:11:26 <tusho> sgeo has a brainfuck+psox one
23:11:31 <tusho> (Oblig.: PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX)
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23:14:36 <pikhq> I'm thinking of an 8086 exokernel.
23:15:00 <pikhq> tusho: What part of '8086 exokernel' says POSIX to you?
23:15:08 <tusho> The part saying 'AWESOME'
23:21:28 <Slereah_> Hm. Could I wipe out a hard drive with an electric toothbrush?
23:27:10 <Slereah_> ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda
23:27:10 <Slereah_> dd: writing to `/dev/sda': Input/output error
23:27:10 <Slereah_> 17705390080 bytes (18 GB) copied, 998.844 seconds, 17.7 MB/s
23:27:23 <tusho> Slereah_: There's something bad about those 18 GB!
23:30:36 <pikhq> No, seriously, your hard drive is probably in the midst of failure.
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