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00:14:22 <tusho> ZOOOOOP
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01:13:05 <RodgerTheGreat> 10 points to anybody who can guess what this fractal is: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1215562214-fractal.png
01:15:10 <lament> i can tell how it's generated
01:15:23 <lament> i don't know what you mean by "is" otherwise
01:15:38 <RodgerTheGreat> ok, that'll do
01:17:08 <pikhq> Looks vaguely like the Sierpinski Triangle.
01:17:38 <pikhq> *Very* vaguely
01:17:40 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: yeah, the structure this represents has some similarities to the sierpinski carpet
01:18:23 <lament> (split a square into 9 sections, then continue iteratively; omit the bottom left subsquare of the main square, and in each child, omit all those squares omitted in the parents, plus the subsquare that's related spatially to the child the same way that the child is related to its parent. Alternate red and blue for division lines)
01:18:45 <lament> not a true fractal since you stop very quickly
01:19:01 <RodgerTheGreat> that's mostly accurate, but you're missing what this represents. It's a meaningful system.
01:19:29 <lament> it could represent a bunch of things...
01:19:41 <lament> tic-tac-toe game trees?
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01:20:19 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: bingo!
01:20:32 <RodgerTheGreat> here's my source, if anyone's curious: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215562712.html
01:21:01 <lament> shame on me for not noticing right away, and shame on you for not starting one iteration above
01:21:47 * RodgerTheGreat shrugs
01:22:17 <RodgerTheGreat> looks neat though, eh?
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01:23:00 <lament> sure, now do the same for chess
01:23:22 <lament> or at least go
01:24:06 <RodgerTheGreat> lament: buy me more ram and a couple of crays and I'll get right on it
01:24:15 <lament> RodgerTheGreat: weak
01:24:28 <lament> you only need to handle as much of the game tree as the output resolution allows
01:24:32 <RodgerTheGreat> and by "more ram" I mean "enough ram to enumerate 2^54 (or whatever) states"
01:24:34 <lament> should be doable
01:24:40 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, hm.
01:24:44 <RodgerTheGreat> that's a good point
01:24:51 <lament> people draw mandelbrots despite them being infinite, after all
01:24:59 <lament> (s/infinite/actually fractal)
01:25:05 <RodgerTheGreat> I imagine both chess and go would look pretty boring within visible range, though
01:25:08 <lament> true
01:25:16 <lament> but if you can zoom in and out
01:25:23 <lament> like in a fractal viewer
01:25:35 <lament> ...and "bookmark" specific places
01:25:48 <lament> corresponding to specific go or chess games...
01:25:59 <lament> hehehe
01:26:05 <lament> (nah, it'd still be pretty boring)
01:26:10 <RodgerTheGreat> this looks like a job for something vaguely resembling seadragon
01:26:18 <RodgerTheGreat> GO MICROSOFT GOONS GO
01:26:40 <lament> haha
01:27:16 <lament> i have worked on some seadragon stuff actually
01:27:26 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, really? nifty stuff
01:27:37 <lament> i am not impressed
01:27:59 <RodgerTheGreat> well, the TED demo was pretty cool
01:28:12 <RodgerTheGreat> a lot of it is just eye-candy, but it's well-executed eye candy
01:29:16 <lament> have you seen deep zoom composer?
01:29:32 <RodgerTheGreat> nope
01:30:06 <lament> (seadragon is now called deep zoom)
01:30:18 <RodgerTheGreat> oh
01:34:12 <lament> but really
01:34:28 <lament> microsoft sucks and will screw everything up
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01:52:39 <augur> :O
01:52:55 <augur> WHATVE I MISSED
01:54:28 <RodgerTheGreat> augur: a cool visualization of Tic-Tac-Toe: http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/images/1215562214-fractal.png
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09:30:38 <Slereah_> Dudes.
09:30:51 <Slereah_> I tried to reinstall Windows XP.
09:31:00 <Slereah_> Then my DVD player fucking ATE THE CD
09:31:06 <Slereah_> Holy shit
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10:07:30 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers4/Om%20nom%20nom.jpg
10:07:31 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers4/Om%20nom%20nom%20XP.jpg
10:07:34 <Slereah_> OM NOM NOM
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13:20:03 <oklopol> how is that tic tac toe visualization done actually?
13:20:07 <oklopol> i mean
13:20:18 <oklopol> what do the colors represent exactly?
13:20:24 <RodgerTheGreat> victories and losses
13:20:38 <oklopol> how come every bottom-left one is black?
13:20:43 <oklopol> shouldn't it be symmetric?
13:21:20 <RodgerTheGreat> because this displays from the second iteration probably because I didn't unroll my recursion properly
13:21:32 <RodgerTheGreat> it was a quick hack
13:22:39 <oklopol> so one move has already been made there?
13:22:58 <RodgerTheGreat> yes
13:23:41 <oklopol> what was that move?
13:24:27 <RodgerTheGreat> bottom left, clearly
13:24:41 <oklopol> oh, right xD
13:25:02 <oklopol> didn't actually give it absolutely any thought
13:30:02 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I'm going to try rewriting it so that you can zoom through the entire fractal
13:30:20 <RodgerTheGreat> the game tree itself should only take up a few megabytes
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13:30:58 <RodgerTheGreat> and I can precalculate it in about two seconds, so the only limiting factor is drawing speed
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17:01:26 <tusho> hi ais523
17:01:30 <ais523> hi tusho
17:01:35 <tusho> i won
17:01:43 <tusho> pretty sure
17:01:50 <ais523> tusho: well, if you're going to join after me and have the text on the clipboard, there's no point in playing really
17:01:57 <tusho> that's true.
17:02:01 <tusho> i'll stop clipboarding it
17:02:13 <ais523> I reckon you'll still win then, but it'll make it fairer
17:02:23 <tusho> the point is that I don't really have to react
17:02:24 <tusho> you do
17:03:40 <ais523> anyway, I'll only be here for another 2 hours or so
17:03:59 <tusho> ah, ok why?
17:04:03 <tusho> you weren't here yesterday too
17:04:07 <ais523> have to get home by 8
17:04:12 <tusho> OK
17:04:13 <ais523> and yesterday I didn't get to sleep until 10am
17:04:23 <ais523> not because I was doing anything, just because my sleep patterns went haywire
17:04:33 <ais523> and this meant that I didn't wake up until pretty late
17:04:48 <tusho> :)
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17:14:36 <oklopol> ais523: regarding intercal lessons, i'm a taker.
17:14:47 <ais523> oklopol: sounds good
17:15:36 <ais523> do you have an INTERCAL compiler or interpreter on you?
17:15:47 <tusho> ais523: he meant real-life ones, actually
17:15:51 <tusho> :)
17:15:57 <tusho> (remembered from yesterday/few days ago)
17:16:11 <ais523> tusho: I remembered that too, but isn't it possible that oklopol's happy to learn either way?
17:16:15 <tusho> possibly, yes
17:16:16 <tusho> :P
17:16:24 <tusho> i'd so go to take INTERCAL lessons from ais523, though
17:16:28 <oklopol> i'm happy with either way
17:16:38 <ais523> well, over IRC's likely easier to organise
17:16:43 <ais523> and saves on plane fares
17:16:43 <oklopol> and no, i don't have anything intercal related on this comp
17:16:50 <tusho> ais523: i don't need a plane!
17:16:52 <oklopol> also i don't have anything unix related on this comp
17:16:55 <ais523> oklopol: what OS does it run?
17:16:58 <oklopol> is that a prob?
17:16:59 <oklopol> win
17:17:00 <oklopol> dows
17:17:06 <ais523> oklopol: not necessarily a problem
17:17:16 <ais523> I do maintain C-INTERCAL on Windows
17:17:25 <ais523> but you have to compile from sources
17:17:27 <ais523> which is a pain
17:17:37 <ais523> I can step you through that if you like, though
17:18:00 <oklopol> you probably will have to, in case you want me to get it
17:18:32 <oklopol> i'm more the plug-n-play type
17:18:33 <ais523> yes, it'll be hard to learn INTERCAL with no way to run it
17:18:37 <oklopol> indeed
17:18:51 <ais523> well, you need to install a C compiler first
17:18:53 <ais523> do you have one already?
17:19:15 <oklopol> not sure
17:19:19 <oklopol> i'll check
17:19:37 <ais523> try opening up a command prompt (start|run then type cmd and return) and typing in the command gcc
17:19:52 <oklopol> i don't have gcc
17:20:13 <ais523> well, I used the DJGPP version, available from http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/zip-picker.html
17:20:35 <pikhq> Though personally, I'd recommend Mingw or Cygwin.
17:20:47 <ais523> pikhq: yes, I know they're better
17:20:52 <ais523> I should get around to installing cygwin some time
17:20:53 <tusho> pikhq: c-intercal can run natively
17:20:53 <tusho> so.
17:20:55 <oklopol> hmm
17:20:59 <tusho> also, cygwin is like slow as hell
17:21:00 <oklopol> i have cygwin
17:21:00 <tusho> mingw is good
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17:21:10 <tusho> oklopol: probably best to do it natively
17:21:11 <tusho> I'd say
17:21:16 <ais523> oklopol: try opening up a cygwin prompt and typing gcc in that
17:21:37 <oklopol> bash: gcc: command not foudn
17:21:45 <oklopol> it typoed, silly prompt.
17:21:46 <tusho> yeah, just install djgpp
17:22:59 <ais523> oklopol: I suggest you use the defaults for everything on the webpage I linked
17:23:32 <oklopol> FTP Site: ftp://ftp.delorie.com/pub/djgpp/current/ <<< so, help the retard, i click this shiny link, right?
17:23:38 <ais523> no
17:23:40 <ais523> scroll down
17:23:46 <ais523> and you'll see links to a bunch of zipfiles
17:23:46 <oklopol> heh, okay
17:23:52 <ais523> unzip them all into the same directory
17:23:54 <ais523> it doesn't matter where
17:23:59 <ais523> except it can't be called /dev
17:24:00 <oklopol> oh, i see.
17:25:25 <ais523> incidentally, what version of Windows are you running?
17:25:34 <oklopol> vista
17:25:43 <ais523> ah, could be interesting
17:25:45 <oklopol> hmm....
17:25:48 <ais523> but I think it'll work
17:25:55 <ais523> as long as you put everything into your documents area
17:25:58 <oklopol> i wonder if the default was xp/2000 or smth
17:26:02 <ais523> so it doesn't trigger UAC every 5 minutes
17:26:10 <ais523> oklopol: DJGPP was never officially ported to Vista
17:26:23 <ais523> but it works, I think, as long as you avoid certain filenames
17:26:30 <ais523> such as patch.exe doesn't work unless renamed to something else
17:26:40 <ais523> because Vista assumes it's an installer, and so forgets its command-line arguments
17:27:08 <tusho> <ais523> because Vista assumes it's an installer, and so forgets its command-line arguments
17:27:08 <tusho> WJW
17:27:21 <ais523> tusho: what's that an abbrev for?
17:27:24 <tusho> Wow Just Wow
17:29:07 <ais523> oklopol: unzipped yet?
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17:30:13 <oklopol> just the first two
17:30:28 <oklopol> the rest of this one, and then 5 to go
17:30:31 <ais523> ok
17:31:09 <oklopol> i'm a bit sceptic, in my experience things don't work unless you can install them with a oneliner or a double-click
17:31:16 <oklopol> but we'll see
17:31:29 <ais523> oklopol: in my experience the things that need double-clicks are the things that normally fail
17:31:36 <ais523> at least with the big mess installs they can be fixed by hand
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17:32:20 <oklopol> never met an msi that didn't manage to install the program correctly
17:32:43 <ais523> oklopol: no, but I /have/ met msis that messed up all the other programs on my computer at the time
17:33:20 <oklopol> well, you've probably installed about ten times more stuff than me.
17:33:32 <ais523> probably written about infinity times more installers than you, too
17:33:37 <oklopol> :D
17:33:48 <oklopol> i've made a few installers in vb!
17:34:15 <tusho> wow
17:34:17 <tusho> that means ...
17:34:23 <oklopol> i think installing is an ugly concept
17:34:23 <tusho> ais523 has made INFINITE installers!
17:34:26 <oklopol> :D
17:34:31 <oklopol> well, "written"
17:34:38 <oklopol> in vb, you click "make installer"
17:34:49 <oklopol> and there's a wizard
17:36:24 <oklopol> now 4 to go
17:36:24 <pikhq> In GNU-land, it's implicit when you use Autotools.
17:36:24 <pikhq> :)
17:36:26 <ais523> well, arguably they are the installer
17:36:30 <oklopol> in python land, you don't install
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17:36:34 <oklopol> you just run
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17:37:47 <ais523> well, yes, that's pretty much how DJGPP works, except you have to set a couple of environment variables first, then you can just run
17:37:51 <ais523> except there are a lot of binaries involved
17:38:01 <ais523> because it has to pretend to be UNIX sufficiently well that gcc will run
17:39:18 <oklopol> after a minute i should have everything
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17:40:34 <oklopol> okay, i think i have them all
17:40:48 <ais523> oklopol: ok
17:41:00 <ais523> everything unzipped into the same directory?
17:41:05 <ais523> i.e. you have one bin subdirectory
17:41:14 <oklopol> yeah
17:41:19 <ais523> ok
17:41:33 <ais523> now you need to set two environment variables
17:41:48 <oklopol> Version information is in manifest/*.ver within each zip. Contents
17:41:48 <oklopol> are in manifest/*.mft in each zip.
17:41:53 <ais523> probably making a shortcut's easiest
17:41:54 <oklopol> whaat
17:41:55 <oklopol> hmm
17:41:56 <oklopol> okay
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17:41:59 <oklopol> what are those?
17:42:14 <ais523> oklopol: basically they're like system-wide variables that tell your computer how to do things
17:42:19 <oklopol> ais523: i mean
17:42:23 <oklopol> what vars?
17:42:25 <ais523> what's the name of the dir you installed into?
17:42:29 <ais523> oklopol: PATH and DJDIR
17:42:35 <oklopol> wugupol. hoped you wouldn't ask
17:42:52 <oklopol> hmmhmm
17:42:52 <ais523> oklopol: you need the full path, starting with c:\
17:43:03 <oklopol> i thought this would be a temporary store
17:43:14 <ais523> oklopol: well, you can move it anywhere you like
17:43:18 <oklopol> well okay, i'll add, djdir is what exactly?
17:43:29 <ais523> djdir points to the djgpp.env file
17:43:34 <ais523> whereever it unpacked to
17:43:45 <ais523> and you need to add the bin subdir to PATH
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17:44:31 <ais523> oklopol: done?
17:44:37 <tritonio_> hello
17:44:44 <ais523> hi tritonio_
17:44:48 <oklopol> no, just got to the environment variables thingie
17:45:03 <ais523> ok, I forgot how inaccessible it was in Windows for a while, it's probably even harder to find in Vista
17:45:13 <oklopol> i need to add to PATH the dir i unzipped the stuff to?
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17:45:23 <ais523> oklopol: no, its bin subdirectory
17:45:28 <oklopol> ah, right
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17:45:42 <ais523> that's basically the standard UNIX trick, you have a subdir called bin and put everything there to avoid having to change the PATH
17:45:43 <oklopol> okay, done
17:45:58 <oklopol> oki
17:45:59 <ais523> oklopol: ok, try opening up a command prompt and running the command go32-v2
17:46:08 <ais523> if it works, then the install worked
17:46:18 <ais523> it should do nothing but print out a few lines of information and exit
17:46:26 <oklopol> worked
17:46:27 <ais523> and the information's irrelevant unless it's "bad command or filename"
17:46:39 <ais523> oklopol: great! Now let's see if the C-INTERCAL install works
17:46:53 <oklopol> okay
17:47:02 <oklopol> awaiting orders.
17:47:09 <ais523> http://www.intercal.ukfsn.org/download/ick-0-28.tgz
17:47:19 <ais523> download that, again anywhere you like
17:47:47 <oklopol> done
17:48:06 <ais523> you need to extract it
17:48:09 <oklopol> done
17:48:17 <ais523> ok, then open up a command prompt
17:48:20 <oklopol> done
17:48:20 <ais523> and cd into the resulting directory
17:48:30 <oklopol> done
17:48:38 <ais523> then makeick.bat
17:48:49 <ais523> hmm... that's the first time anyone's tried to run that script except me
17:48:51 <ais523> I hope it works...
17:48:57 <oklopol> oh
17:49:08 <ais523> oklopol: is it working?
17:49:10 <oklopol> gcc.exe: environment variable DJGPP not defined
17:49:10 <oklopol> gcc.exe: environment variable DJGPP not defined
17:49:10 <oklopol> gcc.exe: environment variable DJGPP not defined
17:49:10 <oklopol> gcc.exe: environment variable DJGPP not defined
17:49:13 <oklopol> ...
17:49:22 <ais523> ugh
17:49:35 <oklopol> i didn't add djdir either
17:49:36 <ais523> it's set it to the same thing as DJDIR
17:49:42 <ais523> s/it's//
17:49:44 <oklopol> so... that might be the prob
17:49:48 <ais523> yep
17:50:03 <oklopol> i'll add, wait a mo
17:51:10 <oklopol> djdir didn't actually exist before, should it have?
17:51:14 <ais523> no
17:51:28 <oklopol> gives same errors
17:51:40 <ais523> did you add DJGPP as well?
17:51:41 <oklopol> do i add the env var djgpp or smth?
17:51:43 <oklopol> nope.
17:51:49 <ais523> yes, same target as DJDIR
17:52:34 <oklopol> about a million more errors now :P
17:52:41 <ais523> ugh
17:52:43 <ais523> what are the first few?
17:52:56 <ais523> it sounds like I may have to do a few fixes to the Windows build system...
17:53:00 <oklopol> too many to see, unless you tell me how to limit how much results it shows.
17:53:15 <oklopol> i can give a few from the middle
17:53:19 <ais523> ok
17:53:25 <ais523> I may be able to guess based on those
17:53:34 <oklopol> feh2.c:1919: warning: comparison between pointer and integer
17:53:37 <oklopol> feh2.c:1919: warning: comparison between pointer and integer
17:53:40 <oklopol> feh2.c:1936: error: 'SUB' undeclared (first use in this function)
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17:53:43 <oklopol> feh2.c:1936: warning: comparison between pointer and integer
17:53:44 <ais523> hmm... maybe a missing header-file
17:53:52 <oklopol> hmm
17:54:01 <ais523> try hitting pause just after you start
17:54:05 <oklopol> hmm
17:54:05 <ais523> it's a rarely-used key on the ketboard
17:54:06 <oklopol> k
17:54:10 <ais523> that might get the first few
17:55:01 <oklopol> Trying to build parsers and lexers (if this fails, e.g. if you do not
17:55:04 <oklopol> have bison/flex, this will produce errors but the compiler will build
17:55:07 <oklopol> anyway using prebuilt versions)...
17:55:08 <ais523> those ones are fine
17:55:10 <oklopol> 'bison' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
17:55:11 <oklopol> oh
17:55:15 <ais523> then you should get a couple of errors
17:55:17 <ais523> about bison and flex
17:55:19 <ais523> those are fine
17:55:20 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
17:55:21 <oklopol> yeah
17:55:31 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:55:45 <ais523> then what?
17:55:57 <ais523> you can unpause by pressing a key other than pause and then repause by pressing pause again
17:56:15 <oklopol> idiotism.c:11:20: error: parser.h: No such file or directory (ENOENT)
17:56:18 <oklopol> idiotism.c: In function 'optimize_pass1':
17:56:21 <oklopol> idiotism.c:39: error: 'MINGLE' undeclared (first use in this function)
17:56:24 <oklopol> idiotism.c:39: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
17:56:26 <ais523> ok, that's what's causing the problems
17:56:27 <oklopol> idiotism.c:39: error: for each function it appears in.)
17:56:32 <ais523> let me think how to fix it
17:56:37 <oklopol> okily dokily.
17:56:57 <ais523> oklopol: open up makeick.bat in an editor
17:57:17 <ais523> and at the end of the set CFLAGS= line, write
17:57:21 <ais523> -I./src
17:57:23 <oklopol> done
17:57:28 <oklopol> i mean
17:57:30 <oklopol> the opening.
17:57:31 <ais523> then try running again
17:57:40 <ais523> that's a capital I by the way
17:58:21 <oklopol> yeah i have a good font
17:58:45 <oklopol> erroooooors
17:58:56 <ais523> ok, first few this time?
17:58:57 <ais523> the same?
17:59:29 <oklopol> i failed the pause. wait a mo..
17:59:54 <oklopol> idiotism.c:11:20: error: parser.h: No such file or directory (ENOENT)
17:59:56 <oklopol> idiotism.c: In function 'optimize_pass1':
17:59:58 <oklopol> same ones
17:59:59 <oklopol> idiotism.c:39: error: 'MINGLE' undeclared (first use in this function)
18:00:04 <ais523> oklopol: ah, try -I ./../src
18:00:19 <ais523> actually, wait
18:00:25 <ais523> how many files are in the temp subdir
18:00:28 <ais523> of the INTERCAL directory?
18:00:32 <ais523> does it have the .h files in?
18:00:36 <oklopol> hmm
18:00:45 <oklopol> temp has a lot of stuff
18:00:48 <ais523> it should do
18:00:52 <ais523> does it have parser.h?
18:01:15 <oklopol> no
18:01:21 <oklopol> parser.c and parser.o, but no .h
18:01:33 <oklopol> also .y is there
18:01:38 <oklopol> i don't even know what that is
18:01:48 <ais523> how did the .h not end up there?
18:01:57 <ais523> http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/temp/parser.h
18:01:58 <oklopol> quite hard to say
18:02:27 <ais523> try downloading that and putting it there
18:02:30 <ais523> and then trying again
18:02:40 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
18:02:46 <oklopol> yeah, wait a bit
18:03:14 <oklopol> cc1.exe: out of memory allocating 1448 bytes after a total of 25243592 bytes
18:03:14 <oklopol> lex.yy.c:2350: warning: 'yyunput' defined but not used
18:03:18 <oklopol> are these okay?
18:03:35 <tusho> Not the first one...
18:03:48 <oklopol> doesn't sound like it, no
18:04:01 <ais523> the second one's ok
18:04:10 <ais523> the first one is pretty mysterious, though
18:04:22 <ais523> was that when it was compiling idiotism.c, by any chance?
18:04:40 <oklopol> right after "Compiling..."
18:04:47 <ais523> ah, of course
18:04:49 <ais523> it only happened once?
18:04:53 <oklopol> then i paused
18:05:00 <ais523> ah, unpause then
18:05:16 <ais523> I think I know how to fix the out-of-memory by simplifying stuff
18:05:35 <oklopol> cc1.exe: out of memory allocating 1448 bytes after a total of 25243592 bytes
18:05:38 <oklopol> lex.yy.c:2350: warning: 'yyunput' defined but not used
18:05:41 <oklopol> cesspool.c: In function 'ick_pin':
18:05:44 <oklopol> cesspool.c:153: warning: the address of 'buf' will never be NULL
18:05:47 <oklopol> gcc.exe: CFLAGS$: No such file or directory (ENOENT)
18:05:50 <oklopol> cset-l.c:3: error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before '-' t
18:05:53 <oklopol> oken
18:05:56 <oklopol> gcc.exe: idiotism.o: No such file or directory (ENOENT)
18:05:59 <oklopol> The system cannot find the file specified.
18:06:02 <oklopol> 1 file(s) copied.
18:06:05 <oklopol> Compiling..., then this, then the copy messages
18:06:12 <oklopol> and it ends
18:06:29 <ais523> try backing up src/idiotism.oil, then deleting most of the lines in it and trying again
18:06:29 <ais523> that's a file full of optimiser idioms, so you can delete any of the lines in it and it'll still work
18:06:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:06:46 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:07:12 <ais523> sorry, connection trouble
18:07:16 <ais523> [Wed Jul 9 2008] [18:05:15] <ais523> I think I know how to fix the out-of-memory by simplifying stuff
18:07:18 <ais523> [Wed Jul 9 2008] [18:05:47] <ais523> try backing up src/idiotism.oil, then deleting most of the lines in it and trying again
18:07:21 <ais523> [Wed Jul 9 2008] [18:06:02] <ais523> that's a file full of optimiser idioms, so you can delete any of the lines in it and it'll still work
18:07:39 <ais523> except you probably want to put [oklopol] or something like that at the start so it has at least one section
18:08:15 <ais523> or the compiler'll get confused
18:08:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:08:19 <oklopol> can i just scrape it?
18:08:20 <oklopol> hmm
18:08:22 <oklopol> bye bye
18:08:27 <tusho> he'll be back.
18:08:31 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:08:31 <oklopol> o rly
18:08:37 <oklopol> can i just scrape the whole file?
18:08:45 <oklopol> empty it
18:08:57 <oklopol> and put [oklopol] in the beginning
18:08:59 <ais523> oklopol: I think it may get confused if it doesn't have at least one line
18:09:03 <ais523> try just one section line and one idiom
18:09:23 <ais523> [minglefold]
18:09:23 <ais523> (#{1}1$#{1}2)->(#{mingle(x1,x2)}0)
18:09:28 <ais523> there, that's a minimal OIL file
18:09:34 <ais523> I picked the most useful idiom from it, too
18:09:40 <oklopol> [oritself]
18:09:40 <oklopol> (_1|_1)->(_1)
18:09:45 <oklopol> this is the contents now
18:09:48 <oklopol> is that k?
18:09:49 <ais523> oklopol: that one's less useful, but will work too
18:09:53 <ais523> that's fine
18:09:56 <ais523> now try recompiling
18:09:57 <oklopol> okay
18:10:09 <ais523> the next version of C-INTERCAL will have an automatic workaround for that sort of thing, by the way
18:10:14 <ais523> Debian reported the out-of-memory to me
18:10:27 <ais523> apparently one of their build machines doesn't have enough memory to process idiotism.c by default
18:10:31 <oklopol> it says "I'm confused, idiotism.oil seems a bit empty." now, and fails to install
18:10:38 <ais523> really?
18:10:42 <oklopol> well no
18:10:43 <ais523> I don't remember writing that message anywhere
18:10:46 <oklopol> :P
18:10:55 <oklopol> just joking to pass the time
18:11:01 <oklopol> hmm
18:11:02 <oklopol> almost
18:11:07 <oklopol> not outta mem, but
18:11:09 <tusho> ais523: C-INTERCAL should have a 'modern messages' mode
18:11:13 <tusho> where all error messages are of the form:
18:11:16 <tusho> I'm confused, X.
18:11:25 <oklopol> cesspool.c: In function 'ick_pin':
18:11:28 <oklopol> cesspool.c:153: warning: the address of 'buf' will never be NULL
18:11:29 <tusho> "I'm confused, you seem to have a COME FROM where I didn't expect one..."
18:11:31 <oklopol> gcc.exe: CFLAGS$: No such file or directory (ENOENT)
18:11:34 <oklopol> cset-l.c:3: error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before '-' t
18:11:37 <oklopol> oken
18:11:40 <oklopol> eroror.
18:12:00 <ais523> the CFLAGS$ thing is really confusing
18:12:15 <ais523> as for the cesspool.c warning, I've never seen that one
18:12:31 <ais523> but I can understand that it may just be there because they improved the compiler
18:12:51 <ais523> oklopol: heh, there's a typo in makeick.bat
18:12:53 <oklopol> so... err... what do i do?
18:12:58 <oklopol> is that so
18:13:02 <ais523> where it says FLAGS$ change that to FLAGS%
18:13:06 <oklopol> okay
18:13:30 <ais523> (Konversation stripped the %C at the start of each of those)
18:13:37 -!- Slereah__ has joined.
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18:13:57 <ais523> oklopol: and the other error is another typo
18:14:09 <ais523> ick-clc_cset_latin1 should be ick_clc_set_latin1
18:14:13 <ais523> hmm... I thought I tested this file
18:14:23 <ais523> maybe some last minute changes snuck in after I tested it...
18:14:31 -!- spxza has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
18:14:49 <oklopol> same error
18:14:55 <ais523> which one?
18:14:56 <tusho> oklopol: change it to %CFLAGS^
18:14:57 <tusho> err
18:15:00 <tusho> %CFLAGS%
18:15:02 <ais523> %CFLAGS%
18:15:11 <ais523> instead of %CFLAGS$
18:15:23 <oklopol> it's exactly as the lines before and after it now
18:15:27 <ais523> good
18:15:32 <ais523> the never be null warning isn't a problem, I think
18:15:37 <oklopol> unless it was the last one, hard to say as they're all identical now
18:15:39 <oklopol> hmm
18:16:36 <ais523> heh, the never-be-null warning is warning me that my assert is always true
18:16:58 <ais523> errors this time?
18:19:32 <oklopol> err
18:19:41 <oklopol> 20:14…    oklopol: same error
18:19:46 <ais523> which one?
18:19:50 <oklopol> you haven't given me instructions after that
18:19:52 <oklopol> err
18:20:04 <oklopol> 20:11… oklopol: cset-l.c:3: error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before '-' t
18:20:04 <oklopol> 20:11… oklopol: oken
18:20:24 <ais523> oklopol: did you fix "ick-clc_cset_latin1 should be ick_clc_set_latin1"
18:20:26 <ais523> it's another typo
18:20:36 <ais523> in makeick.bat
18:21:10 <oklopol> well no i didn't
18:21:11 <oklopol> so wait
18:21:30 <ais523> oklopol: you'll get credit for finding the bugs in the next release...
18:21:39 <ais523> although I was planning to write a script to generate makeick.bat automatically
18:21:46 <ais523> so I don't have to do it by hand every time and make typos
18:22:08 <oklopol> "ick-clc_cset_latin1 should be ick_clc_set_latin1"
18:22:09 <oklopol> hmm
18:22:12 <oklopol> set or cset?
18:22:15 <ais523> cset
18:22:17 <ais523> sorry
18:22:55 <oklopol> i think it worked
18:23:06 <ais523> oklopol: try running bin/ick -@
18:23:16 <ais523> if that produces a usage message, it worked
18:23:32 <oklopol> it did
18:23:37 <ais523> yay!
18:23:43 <ais523> now on to the actual INTERCAL
18:23:44 <oklopol> so i have intercal now?
18:23:48 <oklopol> oh :)
18:23:49 <ais523> yep
18:23:55 <oklopol> i do, so cool
18:24:03 <ais523> probably best to start with a NOP
18:24:06 <oklopol> how do the lessons work, were you leaving soon?
18:24:11 <ais523> oklopol: I am leaving soon
18:24:15 <oklopol> how soon?
18:24:16 <ais523> so I'll just start until I have to leave
18:24:21 <ais523> oklopol: about 20 minutes
18:24:25 <oklopol> okay.
18:24:30 <ais523> let's see...
18:24:38 <ais523> INTERCAL's an imperative language
18:24:39 <oklopol> do you lessonize on #eso?
18:24:43 <oklopol> i know that much
18:24:49 <ais523> oklopol: I was going to
18:24:54 <ais523> although I can start a new channel if you like
18:25:01 <tusho> do it here
18:25:04 <tusho> i'd like to dig it up in the logs
18:25:07 <ais523> yes
18:25:20 <ais523> ok, so you write all the commands in sequence
18:25:20 <oklopol> yeah here is good
18:25:25 <ais523> which is already more normal than befunge
18:25:35 <ais523> all statements start with a "statement identifier"
18:25:47 <oklopol> okay
18:25:48 <ais523> that marks where one statement starts and the previous statement ends
18:25:51 <ais523> sort of like a semicolon in C
18:25:58 <ais523> the most common statement identifier is DO
18:26:02 <ais523> you can use PLEASE as well
18:26:12 <ais523> and you need to have about one PLEASE for every three DOs on average
18:26:17 <ais523> or the program won't compile
18:26:18 <oklopol> okay
18:26:30 <ais523> the GIVE UP command ends the program
18:26:38 <ais523> so DO GIVE UP is the shortest non-erroring INTERCAL program
18:26:41 <ais523> actually DOGIVEUP
18:26:47 <ais523> because the spaces are optional
18:26:49 * oklopol tries
18:26:55 <oklopol> ...how do i compile?
18:27:00 <ais523> the file will need to have a .i extension so it's treated as INTERCAL
18:27:06 <ais523> then just ick filename.i
18:27:19 <ais523> where you need to give the path to ick, either that or add it to your PATH
18:27:23 <oklopol> is it case sensitive?
18:27:28 <ais523> oklopol: not on Windows
18:27:35 <oklopol> i mean
18:27:36 <ais523> oh, INTERCAL itself is
18:27:38 <oklopol> do give up
18:27:43 <ais523> it has to be allcaps
18:27:55 <ais523> there's only one lowercase letter in INTERCAL, and it's part of an operator
18:28:13 <oklopol> ick nop.i seems to crash
18:28:18 <ais523> in what way?
18:28:22 <oklopol> hangs
18:28:27 <oklopol> so doesn't really crash
18:28:29 <ais523> ok, that's strange
18:28:36 <ais523> try unhanging it with control-C
18:28:41 <ais523> and if that fails, control-break
18:28:44 <ais523> actually, do control-break first
18:28:52 <ais523> because sometimes on windows control-C exits your DOS prompt
18:29:09 <ais523> also, check to see if it's hanging because a UAC prompt popped up behind the window you're in
18:29:22 <oklopol> ctrl-c is fine
18:29:22 <ais523> that shouldn't have triggered one, but you never know...
18:29:34 <oklopol> didn't trigger one
18:29:51 <ais523> try ick -o nop.i
18:29:55 <ais523> that dumps the output to stdout
18:29:59 <ais523> so you can see where it hangs
18:30:06 <oklopol> hangs.
18:30:11 <ais523> ugh
18:30:14 <ais523> try ick -d nop.i
18:30:19 <oklopol> :P
18:30:21 <ais523> that should spurt out debug info from the parser
18:30:26 <ais523> see if it reaches that stage
18:30:33 <ais523> or if anything makes ick hang
18:30:37 <oklopol> infloops at parsing i think
18:30:45 <ais523> what, after or before the parse?
18:30:46 <oklopol> lotsa output
18:30:52 <oklopol> pages after pages of stuff
18:30:55 <oklopol> -d
18:30:56 <ais523> that's wrong
18:31:05 <ais523> oklopol: try putting a newline at the end of your program
18:31:12 <ais523> you may have hit a known bug I forgot about
18:31:17 <oklopol> i think i have already
18:31:50 <ais523> ok, then two newlines
18:32:41 <oklopol> Entering state 1
18:32:44 <oklopol> Reading a token: lexer: returning token 292
18:32:47 <oklopol> Next token is token PLEASE ()
18:32:50 <oklopol> Shifting token error ()
18:32:53 <oklopol> Entering state 3
18:32:56 <oklopol> Reducing stack by rule 7 (line 189):
18:32:59 <oklopol> $1 = token error ()
18:33:02 <oklopol> lexer: returning token 292
18:33:05 <oklopol> -> $$ = nterm command ()
18:33:07 <oklopol> Stack now 0 1
18:33:11 <oklopol> Entering state 7
18:33:14 <oklopol> Reducing stack by rule 2 (line 169):
18:33:17 <oklopol> $1 = nterm program ()
18:33:20 <oklopol> $2 = nterm command ()
18:33:23 <oklopol> -> $$ = nterm program ()
18:33:26 <oklopol> Stack now 0
18:33:27 <oklopol> this repeats, no matter how many newlines.
18:33:32 <ais523> ok
18:33:49 <ais523> your program is just PLEASE GIVE UP
18:34:00 <oklopol> DO GIVE UP actually
18:34:07 <ais523> ok, let me see if it works over here
18:34:19 <ais523> nope, infiniloop for me too...
18:34:19 <oklopol> k
18:34:30 <ais523> actually no, it worked
18:34:31 <ais523> it was just slow
18:34:35 <oklopol> oh.
18:34:55 <ais523> oklopol: ah, did you write your program in Notepad?
18:35:06 <oklopol> edit.exe actually
18:35:12 <oklopol> i don't have a hex editor
18:35:17 <ais523> I was wondering if it had a BOM that was screwing things up
18:35:23 <oklopol> BOM?
18:35:37 <ais523> oklopol: binary at the start of a text file that Notepad adds to say what format a file's in
18:35:46 <oklopol> notepad does no such thing
18:36:01 <ais523> yes it does
18:36:06 <ais523> it's just invisible
18:36:07 <oklopol> err, no it does not.
18:36:12 <oklopol> invisible?
18:36:21 <ais523> yep, because it encodes a zero-width space
18:36:38 <ais523> so if you load the file as a text file, you can't see the difference
18:36:40 <oklopol> let's call your assertion
18:36:44 * oklopol opens python
18:36:59 <ais523> make sure there's at least one non-ASCII character in the file
18:37:18 <tusho> oklopol: python handles it
18:37:18 <tusho> I believe
18:37:23 <tusho> so that won't help
18:37:31 <oklopol> >>> open("C:\\Users\\oklopol\\intercool\\ick-0.28\\bin\\nop.i","rb").read()
18:37:31 <oklopol> 'PLEASE GIVE UP'
18:37:32 <ais523> PHP doesn't, and that screwed up MediaWiki once
18:37:38 <tusho> oklopol: python handles it
18:37:49 <ais523> the trick is to compare the file's size as reported by dir with a count of the characters
18:37:57 <oklopol> wtf, doesn't show weird space chard in __repr__?
18:38:02 <ais523> hmm... let me add a BOM by hand to my nop.i and see what happens
18:38:05 <oklopol> if so, i'm switching off python
18:38:15 <oklopol> *characters
18:38:17 <tusho> oklopol: it does,
18:38:21 <tusho> but python's file reading handles it
18:38:23 <tusho> i believe
18:38:28 <tusho> anyway
18:38:28 <oklopol> that's retarded
18:38:29 <tusho> you used edit.com
18:38:30 <tusho> so.
18:38:32 <tusho> and no, it's not
18:38:35 <tusho> it's called
18:38:37 <tusho> "HANDLING UNICODE PROPERLY"
18:38:48 <oklopol> how do i actually open a file then?
18:38:56 <tusho> that is opening a file.
18:39:00 <tusho> unicode support is a feature
18:39:01 <tusho> sheesh
18:39:15 <oklopol> :|
18:39:26 <ais523> well, my BOM by hand went and printed out (null) in a comment where it should have printed out the source code
18:39:47 <ais523> which means that a null-pointer's being derefed somewhere
18:40:01 <ais523> not sure if a BOM's the problem, though
18:40:03 <ais523> probably it isn't
18:40:07 <ais523> oklopol: try one of the example programs
18:40:13 <ais523> e.g. ick pit/primes.i
18:40:29 <ais523> does that work or does it infiniloop?
18:40:46 <oklopol> yeah infoops
18:40:56 <oklopol> same parser error
18:41:12 * ais523 wonders why the parser's doing that
18:41:31 <ais523> <oklopol> Reading a token: lexer: returning token 292
18:41:34 <oklopol> tusho: is there any way to open a file without it having been preprocessed?
18:41:36 <ais523> does it say that inside the infinite loop?
18:41:38 <ais523> or just before it?
18:41:41 <oklopol> i mean, get the binary data
18:41:43 <tusho> oklopol: i don't think you understand
18:41:48 <tusho> unicode support is a good thing
18:41:49 <augur> oklopol!
18:41:51 <augur> im in europe!
18:41:59 <tusho> wanting to turn it off is, well
18:41:59 <tusho> you don't
18:42:01 <oklopol> ais523: says it all the time
18:42:05 <augur> lets get together and make out
18:42:22 <ais523> so the lexer's returning an infinite number of token 292 for some reason
18:42:28 <oklopol> augur: i'll think about it
18:42:40 <augur> :3
18:42:44 <tusho> augur: where in europe
18:42:49 <oklopol> tusho: no, it's not a good thing
18:42:57 * ais523 looks up what 292 means
18:42:58 <augur> nuremberg. i was in london last week
18:42:59 <tusho> oklopol: #python
18:43:08 <augur> why tusho? did you want me to come up and make you a man? :p
18:43:17 <tusho> augur: just curious, sheesh
18:43:17 <tusho> :p
18:43:18 <oklopol> tusho: i want to see if there's a BOM, that thing prevents me from doing that
18:43:18 <ais523> DO, apparently
18:43:21 <ais523> PLEASE is 293
18:43:22 <tusho> (And not in a bi-curious sense)
18:43:26 <tusho> oklopol: #python
18:43:29 <oklopol> why?
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18:43:30 <ais523> oklopol: you know that parser.h was missing?
18:43:35 <augur> ::makes tusho a man::
18:43:40 <oklopol> ais523: wha?
18:43:44 <tusho> oklopol: #python is generally a better channel for python than #esoteric
18:43:44 <ais523> try downloading http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/temp/parser.c too
18:43:56 <ais523> maybe the versions of parser.c and parser.h you got don't match for some bizarre reason
18:44:02 <ais523> yes, that's what happend
18:44:03 <oklopol> tusho: i'm sure they'll agree with you, i don't see the point.
18:44:11 <ais523> you got parser.c from C-INTERCAL 0.28
18:44:15 <tusho> oklopol: actually pythoners generally disagree with me
18:44:16 <tusho> so that's bull
18:44:19 <ais523> but I gave you parser.h from C-INTERCAL 0.29 by mistake
18:44:21 <oklopol> i believe it's good to have unicode support that can't be turned off for some reason.
18:44:28 <ais523> so all the tokens are wrong...
18:44:29 <tusho> oklopol: #python
18:44:37 <oklopol> tusho: nah.
18:44:40 <augur> so whats be goin on since i vanished a few days ago? anything interesting?
18:44:44 <tusho> oklopol: ok then stop whining about it
18:44:51 <ais523> augur: well, I'm teaching oklopol INTERCAL
18:44:58 <augur> oh joy
18:45:01 <oklopol> tusho: no.
18:45:03 <ais523> and teaching myself how it's a good thing if the header file matches the file it's referencing
18:45:21 <ais523> oklopol: actually, I'll dig out the C-INTERCAL 0.28 version of parser.h
18:45:28 <oklopol> okay.
18:45:30 <ais523> probably easier than it mismatching everything else in 0.29
18:46:49 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/raw/1066874
18:47:25 <oklopol> i'll just paste that in parser.h and retry makeick?
18:47:39 <ais523> yep
18:48:31 <ais523> that has PLEASE=292 like it should be
18:49:13 <oklopol> yay
18:49:16 <oklopol> it did nothing!
18:49:32 <oklopol> so
18:49:36 <oklopol> seems to work now
18:49:37 <ais523> what, it compiled, and you ran the result, and nothing happened?
18:49:47 <ais523> I have to go very soon
18:49:55 <ais523> but as another test try writing DO READ OUT #123
18:49:59 <ais523> before the DO GIVE UP line
18:50:12 <ais523> and running the result of that
18:50:14 <ais523> you should get some output
18:51:02 <oklopol> okay
18:51:39 * ais523 has to go in about 3 minutes
18:51:51 <oklopol> CXXIII
18:51:52 <oklopol> ICL633I PROGRAM FELL OFF THE EDGE
18:51:52 <oklopol> ON THE WAY TO THE NEW WORLD
18:51:52 <oklopol> CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT
18:52:00 <ais523> oklopol: that means you missed the GIVE UP line
18:52:00 <oklopol> resubnit
18:52:05 <ais523> anyway, that's the correct output
18:52:07 <oklopol> what does that mean
18:52:17 <ais523> it's a typo for resubmit that was originally made in 1972
18:52:21 <ais523> and has been preserved ever since
18:52:24 <oklopol> heh :P
18:52:34 <ais523> anyway, I'll continue this some other time
18:52:37 <ais523> maybe tomorrow?
18:52:44 <ais523> I should be able to stay longer then, too
18:52:48 <oklopol> perhaps.
18:52:52 <ais523> ok, bye
18:52:56 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"").
18:52:57 <oklopol> i should be available pretty much 24/7
18:52:59 <oklopol> bye
18:54:48 <oklopol> so, tusho, in the unicode world, you don't store arbitrary raw binary data anymore, but only unicode stuff?
18:54:53 <oklopol> even with stuff like pictures
18:55:22 <oklopol> fine by me, although i don't see the point; still i'd say it's quite weird not letting you at least *read* arbitrary data.
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18:57:42 <oklopol> i don't really know anything about unicode, and i don't really care at all, so no need to answer.
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19:07:58 <augur> lalala
19:09:15 <oklopol> lololol
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19:35:32 <tusho> back
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19:54:36 <augur> ::rapes tusho::
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20:00:40 <oklopol> augur is such a bad dood
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20:00:55 <augur> im so bad
20:00:59 <augur> oh man am i bad
20:01:22 <augur> i just type-raped a 13 year old. thats how bad i am. oh yes.
20:01:51 <augur> imaginary rape is the baddest thing on all the internets. im so bad ive done the baddest thing on all the internets!
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20:03:47 <oklopol> o yeah i' is.
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22:31:27 <tusho> what i miss.
22:32:21 <lament> rape
22:32:37 <tusho> lament: by augur?
22:32:52 <augur> ofcourse.
22:32:55 <augur> i raped you.
22:33:02 <augur> you missed it because i drugged you to make you more complacent.
22:33:11 <augur> roofies mess with your memory
22:33:34 <tusho> augur: no, but there were people in the room and it highlighted it in a box
22:33:41 <tusho> i don't want someone to see ::rapes tusho::, strangely
22:33:52 <tusho> that's why I disconnected
22:33:53 <augur> :p
22:33:59 <augur> ::rapes you again::
22:34:23 <tusho> 12:01:22 <augur> i just type-raped a 13 year old. thats how bad i am. oh yes.
22:34:24 <tusho> 12
22:34:35 <augur> awesome.
22:34:40 <augur> im even badder.
22:34:46 <augur> ::really bad::
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22:59:07 <tusho> ::rapes augur::
22:59:10 <tusho> JUST GOTTA BE DIFFERENt
22:59:12 <tusho> ALWAYS REINVENTING MYSELF
22:59:17 <augur> ::enjoys it:
22:59:39 <oklopol> o
22:59:55 <augur> klpl.
23:01:12 <tusho> augur: do you want to look at the rather nifty objective-c-and-smalltalk-and-ruby inspired language I'm cooking up
23:01:15 <tusho> it's not esoteric but it's rather nice.
23:01:24 <augur> sure!
23:01:24 <tusho> i can only give you a few samples, though
23:01:28 <augur> anything for the children
23:01:29 <augur> :p
23:01:36 <tusho> I can write the code natively, but can't tell you the rules that dictate it :p
23:01:55 <augur> well you give me samples and ill write up a grammar, hows that?
23:01:58 <augur> and a semantics if you want
23:02:00 <tusho> it uses indentation-based syntax so if you don't like that beware
23:02:08 <tusho> and I think I can grammar-ize it
23:02:09 <augur> oh god
23:02:09 <augur> nevermind
23:02:10 <augur> just tell me about it
23:02:12 <tusho> but it's not finalized yet
23:02:17 <tusho> augur: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1067226
23:02:26 <tusho> that's just an extremely basic sample
23:02:31 <tusho> cooked it up in like 2 seconds
23:02:47 <tusho> might need a 4 space indent
23:02:48 <tusho> not sure
23:02:59 <tusho> to look good I mean
23:03:06 <augur> i take it you're providing imaginary hooks for Cocoa? :P
23:03:14 <tusho> augur: its object system is Objective-C's
23:03:26 <tusho> no layer or binding or hooks
23:03:30 <tusho> it IS the obj-c object system
23:03:48 <augur> no i mean you're providing the ability to run Cocoa stuff
23:03:57 <tusho> augur: well yeah, the interp will be in obj-c
23:03:58 <tusho> :)
23:04:04 <augur> ok.
23:04:14 <tusho> it does seem to look a bit better with 4-space indents
23:04:28 <tusho> but yeah, it's basically - take the objective-c language, make the syntax smalltalky, and take some hints from ruby
23:04:33 <tusho> add some of my own stuff.
23:04:39 <tusho> oh, and those type declarations it has are optional
23:04:41 <tusho> you could do
23:04:43 <tusho> initWithName: name
23:04:44 <tusho> i think
23:04:48 <tusho> not finalized that yet
23:04:50 <tusho> but probably
23:04:56 <tusho> (it wouldn't be inferred, though, just dynamic)
23:04:59 <augur> i can see the inspiration
23:05:16 <augur> well
23:05:27 <augur> in my opinion
23:05:34 <augur> (Shouter initWithName: ...) is wrong
23:05:42 <tusho> oh, you're right
23:05:43 <tusho> heh
23:05:45 <tusho> it'd be
23:05:52 <augur> Shouter withName: ...
23:05:58 <augur> or
23:06:14 <augur> (Shouter new) initWithName: ...
23:06:22 <tusho> yes
23:06:27 <tusho> it'd be (Shouter alloc) initWithName:...
23:06:31 <tusho> as is objective-c
23:06:44 <augur> its interpreted, dont use allocs. :P
23:06:47 <augur> no memory management!
23:06:50 <augur> make it fully interpreted!
23:07:22 <tusho> augur: dude, it's the objective-c system
23:07:27 <tusho> 'alloc' just means 'create object'
23:07:28 <tusho> that's not mine
23:07:31 <tusho> that's what objective-c does
23:07:33 <tusho> don't think you understand -
23:07:35 <tusho> when you say 'class'
23:07:38 <augur> alloc doesnt mean "create object"
23:07:39 <tusho> that actually makes an objective-c class
23:07:44 <tusho> well yes I know
23:07:46 <tusho> but the point is
23:07:48 <tusho> NSString is the real nsstring
23:07:51 <tusho> no layers or anything
23:07:57 <tusho> when you send messages to it, you really send messages to it directly
23:08:17 <augur> does RubyCocoa use alloc messages and stuff?
23:08:36 <tusho> yes
23:08:40 <tusho> it has a layer for .new
23:08:41 <augur> huh.
23:08:45 <tusho> but Objective-C has 'new' anyway
23:08:50 <tusho> it's just [alloc] init, I think
23:08:58 <tusho> but, you know. rarely do you just want to use 'init'
23:09:03 <tusho> augur: you could also write this as
23:09:05 <lament> why are we talking about objective c
23:09:10 <tusho> ((Shouter new) name:'joe')
23:09:14 <tusho> which is ... nicer
23:09:15 <augur> ::rapes lament::
23:09:24 <tusho> and you can remove initWithName
23:09:26 <augur> tusho: that makes no sense.
23:09:26 <lament> don't rape me :(
23:09:26 <tusho> so yeah
23:09:34 <augur> the new: message should not return the object itself.
23:09:37 <tusho> augur: it does.
23:09:40 <augur> why?
23:09:45 <augur> it doesnt in ObjC
23:09:46 <tusho> because that is what it does in objective-c.
23:09:51 <tusho> (Class new) returns a new Class.
23:09:56 <augur> yes.
23:10:05 <augur> but setName: @"Joe" doesn't
23:10:17 <tusho> hmph, okay
23:10:19 <tusho> i'll revise it
23:10:29 <lament> in smalltalk, it probably would
23:10:30 <augur> so you cant do (((Shouter new) name:"Joe") sayName)
23:10:37 <tusho> lament: yeah
23:10:40 <lament> in smalltalk it's standard practice to have otherwise void functions return self
23:10:42 <tusho> but this is the objective-c system
23:10:48 <tusho> so, it inherits its quirks
23:10:50 <augur> because ((Shouter new) name:"Joe") is undefined
23:11:22 <tusho> yes
23:11:23 <tusho> oky
23:11:24 <tusho> *okay
23:11:25 <tusho> :P
23:11:32 <tusho> hmm
23:11:36 <tusho> what syntax for class-methods....
23:11:50 <augur> +-
23:11:55 <tusho> augur: i mean in my language
23:12:04 <augur> so do i.
23:12:05 <augur> use +-
23:12:12 <tusho> that's not smalltalky
23:12:15 <tusho> i'd like to keep smalltalky _syntax_
23:12:19 <augur> but it is ObjC-y
23:12:26 <tusho> yes, but syntax-wise, I'm going for smalltalk
23:12:37 <augur> hm
23:12:50 <tusho> augur: considering just having a forClass seperator
23:12:50 <tusho> like
23:12:52 <tusho> method
23:12:53 <tusho>     foo
23:12:55 <tusho> forClass
23:12:59 <tusho> [all methods here are class-side]
23:13:02 <augur> eh.
23:13:14 <tusho> augur: how about
23:13:17 <tusho> + and -
23:13:20 <tusho> but - is implicitly assumed
23:13:25 <tusho> and you don't really ever need to specify it
23:13:26 <augur> whatever.
23:13:29 <augur> its your language :P
23:14:05 <tusho> augur: version two:
23:14:12 <tusho> http://pastebin.ca/raw/1067241
23:14:21 <tusho> oh, and look at the first line of talker, it's actually some neat magic
23:14:40 <augur> yes, clearly very Ruby-ish
23:14:45 <tusho> yeah
23:14:48 <tusho> @ basically means:
23:14:54 <tusho> run this code in the context of the class I'm making
23:14:55 <tusho> so it runs
23:15:01 <tusho> Talker attr: #name is: NSString
23:15:03 <augur> why not just get rid of the @?
23:15:08 <tusho> which defines some accessors and stuff
23:15:14 <tusho> augur: because it's ambiguous with message defs
23:15:21 <augur> and instead just use method names instad
23:15:25 <augur> attr: ...
23:15:33 <tusho> that'd define a method called attr in the class
23:15:33 <augur> its not ambiguous since it lacks a type definition
23:15:43 <augur> no it wouldnt
23:15:44 <tusho> augur: they're not required
23:15:45 <tusho> like I said
23:15:48 <augur> oh.
23:15:56 <augur> then self attr: ...
23:16:08 <tusho> could work
23:16:29 <augur> to be consistent with self-directed message passing style
23:16:48 <tusho> augur: OK, yes, it just seemed nice to have an explicit marker
23:16:51 <tusho> but i agree
23:17:04 <augur> well, its explicit in that its a method call. :P
23:17:33 <augur> also, "self new"?
23:17:35 <augur> that makes no sense
23:17:40 <tusho> self is the class, augur
23:17:42 <tusho> it's a class method
23:17:48 <augur> oh wait yes
23:17:50 <augur> nevermind :p
23:17:58 <tusho> http://pastebin.ca/raw/1067246 <-- a version with and without type declarations
23:18:01 <tusho> of course you can mix and match
23:18:12 <augur> i forget, in ObjC, are classes objects too?
23:18:27 <tusho> augur: even if they aren't, my language will reify them into objects
23:18:28 <tusho> :)
23:18:47 <tusho> will work fine either way
23:19:45 <lament> in objc, classes are fucked-up pseudo-objects without instance variables
23:19:55 <lament> err, "class" variables :)
23:19:59 <tusho> lament: then i'll make a reified version with class variables :-p
23:20:01 <augur> uh
23:20:10 <augur> i think classes have class variables in objC
23:20:19 <tusho> it's basically aiming to be smalltalk, but the obj-c object system is more useful because it can interact with all of cocoa
23:20:34 <tusho> 'cause, you know, getting all that stuff for free is nice
23:20:40 <augur> all of cocoa is in objc so it'd better be able to interact with cocoa. :P
23:21:06 <tusho> augur: yes, but it's more elegant to just use the obj-c object system
23:21:11 <tusho> and thus not having to 'interact' with it - it Just Works
23:21:14 <tusho> because that's all the language knows
23:21:17 <lament> no, there're no class variables in objc
23:21:21 <tusho> saves me implementing an object system, you know :p
23:21:51 <lament> which leads to all sorts of problems
23:21:54 <augur> there must be lament
23:22:01 <lament> and yet, there aren't
23:22:10 <tusho> even if there isn't, I can wrap around a class and implement them without any real trouble
23:22:11 <tusho> so i'm happy
23:22:31 <augur> and yet lots of cocoa classes have class variables..
23:22:31 <lament> no, they don't
23:22:34 <augur> yes, they do.
23:22:36 <lament> because there're no class variables in objc
23:22:46 <tusho> augur: name a class?
23:22:48 <tusho> 'cause, you know
23:22:50 <augur> or something that works just the same.
23:22:52 <tusho> this discussion is unproductive
23:22:56 <lament> augur: yes, it's something that works just the same
23:23:02 <lament> namely, plain old global variables from C
23:23:10 <lament> except of course they don't work just the same
23:23:11 <tusho> heh
23:23:11 <augur> then its a class variable.
23:23:20 <augur> how its implemented is irrelevant, its a class variable.
23:23:22 <lament> no, it's a global variable
23:23:26 <lament> it has global scope
23:23:31 <augur> its not treated like one.
23:23:36 <lament> um
23:23:37 <augur> its accessed via the class.
23:23:42 <tusho> yeah, um, augur
23:23:44 <tusho> that's a pretty bad argument
23:23:46 <lament> you can access it from everywhere else in the program, too
23:23:47 <tusho> you can treat C as OOP too
23:23:51 <tusho> doesn't mean it has objects and methods
23:23:56 <lament> what's worse
23:24:04 <lament> suppose you have a method initialize
23:24:06 <lament> for your class
23:24:06 <augur> Objective C is just a layer on top of C.
23:24:11 <lament> and it initializes a "class variable"
23:24:15 <lament> which is just a global variable
23:24:21 <lament> and then, you have a subclass
23:24:26 <lament> this subclass dosen't have an initialize method
23:24:33 <lament> so its parent's initialize is called instead
23:24:41 <lament> and the "class variable" gets initialized a second time
23:24:53 <lament> if you didn't put in a check that initialization already happened, you may well be screwed
23:24:57 <augur> you know that objective c classes do get initialized, right?
23:25:12 <tusho> lament: yeah, i agree that that's bad, so I'll layer proper variables then :p
23:25:22 <lament> augur: ...isn't that exactly what i was describing on the past ~5 lines?
23:25:25 <augur> anyway, the point is, objective c has what amounts to class variables.
23:25:31 <lament> no, it does not.
23:25:36 <tusho> it doesn't
23:25:36 <augur> yes it does.
23:25:36 <tusho> :\
23:25:45 <augur> you show me how you can access these supposed globals.
23:25:45 <lament> augur: objective c has global variables.
23:25:54 <lament> they're not supposed globals
23:25:57 <lament> they're just globals
23:26:00 <lament> like any other global in C
23:26:01 <augur> then show me how you access them.
23:26:06 <augur> they ARE supposed
23:26:08 <lament> like you would access any other global
23:26:11 <augur> because you're supposing they're globals.
23:26:15 <tusho> augur: dude
23:26:16 <tusho> lament means
23:26:19 <tusho> they are literall
23:26:20 <tusho> y
23:26:22 <tusho> at the top scope
23:26:26 <tusho> 'int MyClass_global;'
23:26:30 <tusho> and then as a class method
23:26:32 <lament> they're at the top scope of the respective .m file
23:26:34 <lament> or
23:26:38 <lament> anywhere else where you wish to put them
23:26:39 <tusho> + (int)global { return MyClass_global; }
23:26:40 <tusho> or whatever
23:26:43 <augur> show me how to access [NSColor redColor]
23:26:44 <tusho> and THAT's how cocoa classes do it
23:26:52 <tusho> augur: step 1. find out what global name they used step 2. use it
23:26:58 <augur> or [NSNotificationCenter defaultCenter]
23:26:58 <lament> augur: that's a method, not a variable.
23:27:05 <augur> tusho: prove there IS a global name.
23:27:06 <lament> those are methods
23:27:09 <augur> yes its a method lament
23:27:13 <tusho> augur: implement a class method without it
23:27:14 <tusho> go on
23:27:16 <tusho> it's just NOT in the spec
23:27:21 <augur> but there are other methods for setting values returned by class methods
23:27:23 <tusho> but [NSColor redColor] probably constructs an NSColor anyway
23:27:27 <tusho> augur: yes
23:27:29 <tusho> which does
23:27:37 <tusho> + (void)setGlobal:(int)newone { MyClass_global = newone; }
23:27:40 <augur> show me that its actually a global.
23:28:01 <tusho> augur: link us to the part of the objective c spec that gives you another way to implement a class variables
23:28:03 <tusho> I'll wait here.
23:28:13 <augur> i dont have to because im not claiming it ISNT global
23:28:21 <augur> i dont know how its implemented.
23:28:22 <tusho> <augur> show me that its actually a global.
23:28:26 <augur> im not making a positive claim.
23:28:33 <augur> uh, tusho, thats not a claim
23:28:38 <augur> thats a demand for evidence.
23:28:42 <lament> i don't know how [NSColor redColor] is implemented, but it has nothing to do with class variables anyway
23:28:48 <augur> you might not know the difference, let me find you a dictionary definition
23:29:24 <augur> but [NSColor redColor] == [NSColor redColor]
23:29:36 <lament> augur: yes, it's a method returning a constant value
23:29:40 <lament> how's a constant a variable?
23:30:18 <lament> indeed, its body probably simply constructs the NSColor object
23:30:26 <lament> by creating it with specific red, blue and green components
23:30:26 <tusho> lament: that's not true
23:30:28 <tusho> since its ==
23:30:29 <tusho> so same object
23:30:30 <lament> oh
23:30:34 <tusho> still
23:30:35 <augur> durr.
23:30:37 <augur> way to go lament.
23:30:53 <lament> i suppose it's stored in a global variable, then, after all :)
23:30:56 <augur> lament doesnt even know what == means or what its implications are.
23:31:01 <augur> you suppose
23:31:02 <tusho> lol @ augur
23:31:03 <augur> and yet its not supposed?
23:31:10 <lament> ?
23:31:13 <augur> lament, you're pulling this out of your ass.
23:31:20 <augur> you said earlier its not a supposed global variable
23:31:24 <tusho> "AHA! Because you are not COMPLETELY STATING without ONE SHADOW OF A DOUBT that it's a global-- You're wrong. Therefore, I am right.@
23:31:26 <augur> and now you just said you suppose it is a global variable
23:31:34 <lament> stop trolling
23:31:37 <augur> tusho, im not claiming anything
23:31:39 <augur> so i cant be "right"
23:31:42 <augur> im asking for proof.
23:31:47 <augur> lament is refusing to provide any.
23:31:48 <tusho> Proof. With SCIENCE!
23:31:56 <tusho> augur: As a counter - how else could you make a class variable?
23:31:56 <lament> 15:31 <augur> you said earlier its not a supposed global variable
23:32:00 <lament> 15:31 <augur> and now you just said you suppose it is a global variable
23:32:04 <lament> either learn to read english, or stop trolling
23:32:09 <tusho> Tell us one way. Otherwise, obviously, since a global will work, it's the only way, if there's no other way.
23:32:18 <augur> tusho: the same way you make instance variables instance variables
23:32:23 <tusho> augur: which is?
23:32:34 <augur> having some struct in memory representing the class variables.
23:32:49 <tusho> augur: show us an example
23:32:51 <tusho> that actually runs
23:32:52 <lament> augur: objc has instance variables because there's language-level support for them.
23:33:00 <lament> there's no langugae-level support for class variables.
23:33:04 <augur> so you say
23:33:12 <lament> yep
23:33:16 <augur> and yet you show no proof that these things are global
23:33:19 <lament> ugh
23:33:32 <augur> hey, im just asking you to show me that this is the case
23:33:40 <augur> here watch, i'll be you, but not you
23:33:41 <tusho> augur: Show us a runnable example. Now.
23:33:51 <lament> please, just go read an objective c reference - that part of it that says "objective c does not have class variables"
23:33:51 <tusho> Either that or you have no case.
23:33:58 <augur> actually they're not global variables
23:33:59 <tusho> As, if there isn't any other way to do it, it has to be the one way that you _can_ do it.
23:34:06 <augur> they're really is language level support
23:34:09 <augur> there*
23:34:11 <tusho> augur: show us
23:34:16 <tusho> show us. show us. show us. show us.
23:34:23 <tusho> if you say 'i don't have to', you have no leg to stand on
23:34:27 <augur> ill show you as much as lament shows.
23:34:33 <tusho> troll
23:34:33 <tusho> troll
23:34:33 <tusho> troll
23:34:51 <augur> im doing nothing more than lament
23:35:02 <tusho> you're proving your point! In a totally EDGY way.
23:35:04 <tusho> You go, man!
23:35:05 <augur> ofcourse im doing it for irony
23:35:12 <augur> theres no point to prove
23:35:13 <tusho> Irony fuck yeah! You rock!
23:35:15 <tusho> Show it to the man./
23:35:19 <augur> ...
23:35:23 <augur> tusho stop being an idiot
23:35:31 <lament> augur: what you're doing is destroying your credibility as somebody worth talking to
23:35:49 <lament> not your credibility in terms of how much you know or don't know objective c, that's not the point
23:35:54 <augur> how? by demanding you show me?
23:35:59 <lament> by being an asshole
23:36:06 <augur> im not being an asshole
23:36:09 <augur> im asking you to just show me
23:36:10 <augur> and you wont
23:36:12 <augur> just
23:36:13 <augur> fucking
23:36:15 <augur> show
23:36:16 <augur> me
23:36:24 <augur> otherwise you're full of shit
23:36:44 <augur> and its your credibility thats been destroyed
23:36:54 <augur> because you're now logged as making claims without backing them upo
23:37:00 <tusho> Unfortunately, augur tends to think everything that is not exactly what he personally thinks (whether backed up by evidence or not) is completely wrong, and since we are not providing 100% scientific proof, we are obviously wrong, he is obviously right, and because you're not providing perfect and utter proof (even if you are), he does not have to back up his opinions whatsoever.
23:37:09 <augur> tusho stop being a child.
23:37:18 <augur> ive said multiple times that i dont know how its done
23:37:23 <lament> okay, this is from the apple objc reference: "For all the instances of a class to share data, you must define an external variable of some sort."
23:37:23 <augur> hence why im asking for evidence
23:37:36 <augur> link.
23:37:43 <lament> google
23:37:50 <tusho> augur: you are accusing lament of fabricating a quote from apple's objective c reference
23:37:51 <augur> you obviously have the link
23:37:52 <tusho> are you fucking kidding
23:38:04 <augur> he obviously has the link
23:38:06 <lament> no, i obviously have the document stored locally on my computer because i need to refer to it
23:38:09 <augur> and yet he wont copy and paste it
23:38:11 <augur> ok.
23:38:16 <lament> because i program in objective c for work
23:38:33 <augur> googled, verified, and accepted.
23:38:37 <lament> you suck.
23:38:40 <tusho> finally!
23:38:41 <tusho> jeez
23:38:56 <augur> tusho: you're 12. you're an idiot. go away.
23:39:03 <tusho> you know. at the start of writing that long message.
23:39:07 <tusho> I considered saying
23:39:13 <tusho> 'and now watch augur bring up my age because he's out of arguments'
23:39:15 <tusho> i thought
23:39:18 <tusho> 'no, that'll just inflame him'
23:39:22 <tusho> 'he hasn't done that since forever.'
23:39:27 <tusho> so. fucking. typical
23:39:36 <augur> im not the only one who's noticed that you act like a child.
23:39:50 <tusho> you're making a fool of yourself, augur
23:39:50 <augur> but others have been kind to you and not mentioned in in public.
23:40:06 <augur> and you're still an idiot who thinks i was making an argument that trying to prove somthing
23:40:09 <tusho> yes, they've obviously had intense discussions in #omg-tusho-is-12
23:40:13 <tusho> giggling behind my backs
23:40:16 <tusho> obviously.
23:40:18 <tusho> *back
23:40:41 <augur> hey, you've gotta make shit up to argue.
23:40:45 <augur> not me.
23:40:55 <tusho> augur: so what, how do you know people have noticed it? do they confide in you?
23:40:58 <augur> im not the one going around making up things to attack.
23:40:58 <tusho> are you a priest or something?
23:41:08 <augur> shall i quote them to you?
23:41:10 <tusho> sure.
23:41:11 <tusho> go ahead.
23:41:52 <tusho> augur: come on.
23:41:56 <lament> this is the first time i see personal insults between channel regulars
23:42:10 <tusho> lament: i'd like to know what these people have had to say.
23:42:11 <tusho> let him quote.
23:42:16 <augur> you know, forget it, im not playing your game tusho.
23:42:30 <tusho> augur: quote it, or you're fabricating evidence to scare me or something
23:42:36 <tusho> it's not a game, I'm intrigued.
23:42:54 <augur> because you're trolling, and by responding to your childishness i've already lost to it.
23:43:00 <tusho> augur: i'll stop trolling.
23:43:02 <tusho> just quote.
23:43:04 <lament> augur: you keep insulting him.
23:43:13 <augur> yep, im fabrication evidence.
23:43:18 <tusho> lament: just let him quote. i'm interested.
23:43:23 <augur> or rumored evidence.
23:43:29 <tusho> augur: tell.
23:43:31 <augur> as the case may be.
23:43:36 <tusho> tell.
23:44:04 <tusho> augur: come on..
23:44:36 <augur> ask rodger the great.
23:44:44 <tusho> he's stated that in public, actually
23:44:49 <augur> did he?
23:44:50 <tusho> but do show your non-public quotes
23:44:52 <augur> oh well nevermind then.
23:44:55 <tusho> i'd love to see them
23:45:44 <augur> ok im off to bed.
23:45:58 <tusho> augur: quote
23:46:17 <augur> night lament, thank you for (frustratingly) enlightening me to how ObjC handles "class variables"
23:46:40 <tusho> lament: he pulled it out of his arse, didn't he.
23:46:57 <lament> probably
23:47:44 <augur> aw tusho are you really that eager to see rodger say you act like a child?
23:47:51 <tusho> sure.
23:48:10 <augur> oh but how do you know i didn't just make it up with my magical typing skills?
23:48:20 <tusho> i don't. so show me.
23:48:39 <augur> RodgerTheGreat: Tusho needs to die in a fire.
23:48:52 * RodgerTheGreat nods
23:49:08 <augur> actually i made that up but hey, what he said.
23:49:24 <tusho> you're retarded, augur. :)
23:49:34 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, I thought you were just making a statement to me
23:49:38 <tusho> you claimed that I was the one who needed to fabricate stuff for my arguments
23:49:39 <tusho> how ironic
23:49:51 <tusho> i do like RodgerTheGreat's implicit attack, though
23:49:52 <tusho> very smooth.
23:49:53 <augur> i dont, it was another attempt to make a point
23:49:57 <augur> one that flew over your head.
23:50:05 <tusho> woooooosh!
23:50:17 <tusho> btw, fuck you RodgerTheGreat :)
23:50:24 <augur> if i quoted something to you, you'd just come back and say that i made it up
23:50:31 <RodgerTheGreat> fuck you too, you little pest
23:50:49 <augur> that its just text in a log file on my computer and i have no proof rodger ever said it
23:51:04 <augur> so theres no point in even quote it at all.
23:51:17 <RodgerTheGreat> there's a reason people don't take youngsters seriously on the internet, and you, tusho, are a shining example of this.
23:51:20 <augur> because you dont want to see the quote, you just want to call me a liar.
23:51:21 <tusho> :)
23:51:40 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: I note that, pre anyone knowing anything about my age, people used to use reasoned arguments in here.
23:51:43 <tusho> Crazy, isn't it?
23:51:52 <augur> reasoned arguments?
23:51:56 <RodgerTheGreat> http://bash.org/?14207
23:51:58 <augur> you mean like the one you used earlier against me?
23:52:08 <augur> the one where im trying to prove some point
23:52:15 <augur> when all i was doing was asking for evidence
23:52:15 <augur> ?
23:52:19 <augur> that reasoned argument?
23:52:25 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: Everything can be backed up by bash.org!
23:52:34 <tusho> (Especially when it's totally irrelevant)
23:52:43 <augur> tusho
23:52:51 <augur> what hes saying is that we didnt need to find out you were 12
23:52:53 <augur> we could tell
23:52:55 <augur> because you act like it
23:53:12 <tusho> I don't recall anyone saying anything like that in the past, ever, actually
23:53:19 <augur> ofcourse you dont
23:53:20 <tusho> If you have secret logs of that too I'd enjoy seeing them.
23:53:24 <RodgerTheGreat> tusho: reading comprehension, dude
23:54:34 <augur> you need to fucking chill, tusho. and learn how to argue. you make shit up, and thats bad form.
23:54:57 <tusho> augur: i am pretty chill right now, actually - you're the one who said 'tusho needs to die in a fire', then RodgerTheGreat called me a little pest
23:55:02 <lament> thank god, while tusho is a stupid 12-year old, the rest of us are mature and reasonable
23:55:11 <tusho> perhaps some chilling might be warranted on both of your parts.
23:55:12 <lament> as exemplified by "<augur> tusho: you're 12. you're an idiot. go away."
23:55:17 <augur> actually i said that as a fake quote to prove a point
23:55:24 <tusho> you're doing well with your point-proving
23:55:26 <augur> you still dont get that.
23:55:27 <tusho> keep it up
23:55:49 <augur> you're 12, i should know better to expect you to be smart enough to grasp these things
23:56:11 <tusho> this is a lovely ridiculous conversation, it's quite fun.
23:56:33 <augur> lament: nevermind the fact that i was talking to you and he was being childish and distracting? please.
23:57:26 <augur> i was asking you for evidence, and he was being noise, screaming his head off in typical childlike fashion. what i said valid and relevant.
23:57:38 <augur> and if you dont grasp why, you're an idiot too, and you should go away.
23:57:57 <tusho> augur: you just told the chanop that he's an idiot and he should go away
23:57:58 <tusho> grats
23:58:28 <lament> well, for one
23:58:41 <lament> tusho actually said exactly how you can do globals in objc
23:58:45 <lament> with code examples
23:58:54 <lament> before i bothered to quote the reference
23:58:57 <augur> saying that you can is not evidence of how its done
23:59:04 <augur> first of all.
23:59:14 <augur> you claimed it was done with globals and all i did was ask you to show me how it was done.
23:59:20 <augur> all he did after that point was troll.
23:59:40 <augur> you claim i was trolling but he was the one contributing nothing to the conversation at all, other than noise.