00:08:49 <lilja> oh, and would I really have to be insane in order to idle here for a long time?
00:09:10 <lilja> after all, this place has it's charm
00:09:22 <lilja> since I can't say anything smart here
00:09:56 <lament> nobody can say anything smart here
00:09:58 <lament> or they will get banned
00:10:13 <oerjan> especially nothing smart-ass
00:10:34 <tusho> lilja: we're all stupid in here.
00:10:37 <oklopol> lilja has a very smart ass
00:11:37 <lament> in fact we should institute a maximum IQ law.
00:11:51 <lament> People with IQ higher than 98 are not allowed in the channel.
00:11:58 <lilja> I don't really know if you ever say anything that makes sense, since I hardly understand anything you're saying.. it's rather relaxing
00:11:59 <oerjan> the problem is we would have to be smart to measure that
00:12:07 <tusho> oerjan: solution -
00:12:15 <tusho> lament: do the honours
00:12:23 <tusho> ban *!*@* and /cs #esoteric clean
00:12:24 <oklopol> i actually think i read somewhere that apart from the brain and the spinal cord, the ass is the cleverest thing in the human body
00:12:27 <tusho> you can unban us after a few minutes.
00:12:59 <lament> you mean, "Apart from the spinal cord and, sometimes, the brain..."
00:13:05 <lilja> oklopol: how's so?
00:13:08 <tusho> lament: it'd get rid of all the idiots in here!
00:13:21 <oerjan> the immune system is pretty smart, i think
00:13:27 <oklopol> your ass doesn't just spout it aroud all the time
00:13:41 <lament> eyes are pretty smart, unless you count them as part of the brain
00:13:44 <tusho> oklopol: mine does
00:14:00 <oklopol> diarrhea is when crap beats your ass in chess
00:14:17 <oerjan> that's - mind boggling
00:14:25 <tusho> oerjan: don't you mean - ass boggling?
00:14:51 <oklopol> we should have a too-obvious-joke policy here
00:14:54 <oerjan> great asses think alike
00:15:04 <tusho> oklopol: you're required to say them?
00:15:18 <ihope> Let's all say an obvious joke, then.
00:15:35 <tusho> I don't think I can, my ass is shitting a lot right now.
00:15:36 <oklopol> ihope: actually the obvious joke would've been
00:15:39 <lament> Your mom is an obvious joke.
00:15:45 <ihope> That's what SHE said!
00:15:50 <tusho> lament: haha, that was pretty good.
00:15:55 <oklopol> "let's start saying obvious jokes then"
00:15:59 -!- RedDak has joined.
00:16:06 <oklopol> you would've doubled tusho's joke
00:16:14 <oklopol> thus making the obvious joke, considering what i just said
00:16:41 <lament> PLEASE SAY AN OBVIOUS JOKE
00:17:40 <ihope> Holy crap, a talking lament.
00:18:10 <ihope> I not know what is a shut up. Do not call me a shut up.
00:19:36 <tusho> lament: please ban *!*@*?
00:19:54 <lament> unsafePerformBan *!*@*
00:20:05 <tusho> lament: in IRC, not haskell
00:20:14 * ihope sets mode #esoteric: +b *!*@*
00:20:23 <tusho> ihope: Not in /me.
00:20:29 <tusho> Not in /me. In /ban.
00:20:47 * ihope sets mode #esoteric: +b *!*@*
00:21:02 <ihope> That was not in /me, but it was not in /ban, either. Whatever it was.
00:21:17 <tusho> That was in /me, ihope
00:21:24 <tusho> Or rather, in \1ACTION\1
00:21:36 <ihope> \1ACTION\1 isn't /me. :-P
00:22:11 -!- lament has set topic: fuck man i'm haf fah m'i nam kcuf | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | *!*@* is banned. If you're banned, please leave the channel..
00:22:16 <tusho> It's what /me generates.
00:22:20 <tusho> lament: type /ban *!*@*
00:22:25 <tusho> note: not //ban *!*@*
00:22:49 <ihope> [ERROR] You need to be an operator in #esoteric to do that.
00:22:55 <tusho> lament: ok, instead
00:23:00 <tusho> type /msg ChanServ op #esoteric
00:23:21 <lament> this is getting too complicated
00:23:33 <lament> you can't honestly expect me to follow all that
00:23:35 <ihope> Is "MODE #esoteric :+b *!*@*" the correct syntax?
00:23:41 <tusho> lament: good point, let me make it simpler
00:23:55 <tusho> type /msg ChanServ ban #esoteric *!*@*
00:24:27 <tusho> lament: done that?
00:24:37 <oerjan> at least the insanity quotient is coming along splendidly
00:24:38 <lament> ok, no more requests. :)
00:24:44 <tusho> lament: how did you do that
00:24:47 <tusho> we are still talking.
00:25:02 <lament> tusho: because it's not a valid chanserv command and never has been.
00:25:24 <tusho> lament: okay, can I give you one more, super easy request.
00:25:27 <tusho> I'll make it all short
00:25:38 <tusho> thn ... means 'type this: ... then hit enter'
00:25:42 <tusho> thn /cs op #esoteric
00:26:21 <tusho> lament: simple enough?
00:26:24 <oklopol> what's "thn" how do you expect him to remember that?
00:26:43 <tusho> oklopol: thn means 'type the following then enter'
00:26:50 <lament> Done. No more requests.
00:26:58 <tusho> lament: .. How come?
00:27:13 <tusho> lament: What happened.
00:27:46 <lament> tusho: Why do you expect /cs to do anything?
00:27:52 <ihope> from(ChanServ) You are not authorized to perform this operation.
00:27:59 <tusho> lament: I know your client supports it.
00:28:01 <oklopol> kulkuset, kulkuset, kilvan helkkäilee
00:28:15 <lament> -!- Irssi: Unknown command: cs
00:28:37 <oklopol> it should start an irc based counter strike
00:29:24 <tusho> lament: can I give you one more request?
00:29:28 <oklopol> just pipe graphics through /privmsg's
00:30:36 <lament> because you're an antisocial freak who wants to ban everybody
00:31:17 <lament> besides, the topic already says everybody is banned.
00:31:30 <ihope> tusho: I'll do something you want me to do!
00:31:45 <tusho> i only wanna ban everyone for a second, lament
00:32:00 <ihope> Join #everyoneisbanned!
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00:34:59 <lilja> oklopol: miksi helkkili?
00:35:10 <tusho> ihope: nobody can join it
00:35:15 <ihope> tusho: did you try?
00:35:20 <oklopol> ehkä se oli tämä hulluusteema, joka sai haluni kohoamaan
00:35:25 <tusho> ihope: you can't join a room you're banned from.
00:36:09 <lilja> mutta siinhn voisi olla jrke!
00:36:15 <ihope> You tried it again and it didn't work?
00:36:32 <ihope> Oh, silly me. Try again.
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00:37:02 <ihope> I unbanned ehird instead of tusho.
00:37:43 <tusho> ihope: Are you good at N
00:38:33 <oklopol> vittu koskenkorvaa pilluun
00:38:37 <tusho> http://www.addictinggames.com/ngame.html
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00:39:00 <oklopol> lilja: don't worry, no one active is finnish
00:39:11 <lilja> kyll sin taidat olla oudompi...
00:39:12 <oklopol> so no one can get offended
00:39:29 <lament> at least i know what vittu means
00:39:46 <oklopol> the one fucking op on the whole chan!
00:39:46 <lilja> jos se olisikin vittukoskenkorvaa?
00:39:58 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_profanity
00:40:21 <oklopol> damn, that almost translates all of my sentence
00:40:32 <oklopol> vitunkorva is the ear of the vagina
00:41:00 <oklopol> ear is the thingie you hear through
00:41:25 <oklopol> lilja: i doubt the finnish is as fun to the others as it is for us :P
00:41:47 <oklopol> lament: did you catch my other dream about you?
00:41:53 <lilja> klitoriksen luona on se sellainen tosi etisesti korvaa muistuttava juttu, se sen tytyy olla
00:42:26 <oklopol> you were on the cover of an energy drink
00:42:29 * oerjan points out that klitoris is an international word
00:42:31 <lilja> oklopol: you started it :(
00:43:09 <oklopol> and i kinda wanted you to tell me it's okay or something
00:43:22 <oklopol> needless to say, i was devastated
00:44:26 <oerjan> also, vittu _has_ to be related to the corresponding norwegian word. finnish doesn't have f does it?
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00:45:56 <oerjan> tusho's keyboard has defected on him
00:46:00 <oklopol> err can you link? i don't wanna ggl
00:46:19 <oerjan> that actually _did_ make sense
00:46:34 <oklopol> episode 11 lvl 1 on the ninja game n, help
00:46:51 <tusho> oklopol: it's "steps"
00:47:24 <oerjan> if "korva" means ear, what does "kosken" mean?
00:49:50 <oklopol> or rapid, dunno what the basic form is
00:50:05 <oklopol> and kosken is the genetive
00:51:27 <oklopol> yeah, literally speaking, it means that
00:52:19 <tusho> oerjan: you're an ear of rapid
00:52:22 <oklopol> but i think it's something like a whirlpool
00:52:26 <oerjan> ah, wikipedia has something to say
00:52:31 <oerjan> Koskenkorva is a small village - that belongs to municipality of Ilmajoki - in Finland that translates as "(area) by the rapids". The folk etymology "rapid's ear" is based on the fact that korva also means "ear".
00:53:09 <oklopol> has to do with the form of the rapids, not the actual water flow
00:53:19 <tusho> oerjan: you're an ear of a small village!!!!!
00:53:58 <tusho> just insulting you.
00:54:20 <oerjan> i see how you get ear from "oer" but not how you get a small village from "jan" :D
00:56:10 <oerjan> now, it _could_ be interpreted as "Jan with the ear(s)"
00:56:52 -!- tusho has set topic: Jan with the ear. Tunes dot org / ~nef / logs / esoteric..
00:57:31 <oerjan> yay, i'm in the topic!
00:58:06 -!- oklopol has set topic: Jan with the ear. Tunes dot org / ~nef / logs / esoteric. Also oklopol is now in the topic, come and see..
01:02:01 -!- tusho has quit.
01:04:12 <oerjan> he left, never to return
01:05:01 <oklopol> so oerjan, how's it going?
01:05:10 <oklopol> tell me one personal detail, right here, on the channel
01:06:05 <oerjan> now i will move on to the strawberry jam
01:06:35 <oerjan> then i shall delight on mackerel in tomato sauce
01:06:57 <oerjan> and finally a liver pat
01:38:16 <ihope> Ooh, personal detail.
01:38:35 <ihope> My full name, including my middle name, contains an even number of letters.
01:38:55 <ihope> I'm pretty sure, at least.
01:39:00 <oerjan> ooh, you have a middle name?
01:39:18 <ihope> It's possible that my middle name contains one more letter than I think it does, but I don't think so.
01:40:44 <oerjan> i had sort of assumed you were able to spell your own name, here
01:42:46 <ihope> I'd probably get the spelling right, but there's still a significant chance I wouldn't.
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05:20:16 <CakeProphet> name the game, brother... I can't say but I know another way, brother. We ain't playin' we just sayin' that it's a dang shame, that you didn't take the blue pill, I hear you bitch but it means nill - I watch you kill the time like ya out of ya mind like the silver platter don't matter - ain't enough, ain't nothing to you.
05:22:09 <oklopol> that's *exactly* what your mom said last night
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16:35:27 <ais523> yes, I wasn't watching IRC at the time
16:35:30 <ais523> but instead reading my email
16:36:57 <tusho> my desk appears to have come loose
16:36:59 <tusho> jaggling around as i type
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17:13:56 <ais523> Hiato: worrying whether your connection was working?
17:14:18 <Hiato> nope, I was worrying whether or not anyone was alive here
17:15:19 <Hiato> alright, this is a two parter
17:15:32 <Hiato> for those interested (or alive, or whose name is ais523)
17:15:37 <Hiato> http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=gxbfcxsyg2r
17:15:51 <Hiato> that is part one, I need to know where I have gone wrong so I can move to part two :P
17:16:30 <tusho> Hiato: a two parter spec?
17:16:33 <tusho> what is it, a word document?
17:16:37 <tusho> ASCII. Do you speak it?
17:16:43 <Hiato> tusho, yes, I know you'll kill me
17:16:52 <Hiato> and no, a one parter spec
17:16:53 <tusho> Rule 1. Your spec does not need to be in Word format.
17:16:55 -!- olsner has joined.
17:16:55 <Hiato> but a two parter process
17:17:03 <tusho> Rule 2. Your spec will probably do fine as regular text. Use Notepad.
17:17:25 <tusho> Rule 3. A Word spec on mediafire. Aah.
17:17:25 <Hiato> I realise, but it has nice formatting and OO seems to explode when saving as rtf or otherwise
17:18:02 <Hiato> so, the process to get you to read it is?
17:18:07 <Hiato> copy it into text?
17:18:25 <tusho> then put it on a pastebin like pastebin.ca
17:28:00 <Hiato> http://rafb.net/p/LB8PDV38.txt
17:28:05 <Hiato> alright, there we are :)
17:29:22 <Hiato> ps, this applies to both ais523 and tusho, seeing as most likely ais523 agreed to tusho's hatred of all things ms
17:29:38 <tusho> he develops c-intercal on windows
17:30:40 <ais523> Hiato: I don't necessarily hate all things MS, but Word format is really hard for many people to read seeing as it requires either a massive converter (OpenOffice.org, which isn't perfect) or a program that costs lots of monet
17:31:00 <ais523> I do dislike many things MS, because I think they're going about things the wrong way
17:31:15 <ais523> but I do put in effort to get C-INTERCAL working on Windows
17:32:57 <Hiato> ps: I tend to agree, it wasn't meant as an insult :)
17:33:17 <Hiato> blarg, curse the unemotional text based forms of communication
17:34:25 <tusho> Hiato: he wasn't retorting it as an insult
17:34:27 <tusho> just offering information
17:34:31 <tusho> double misunderstanding!
17:36:15 <Hiato> aah, then all is well
17:37:20 <Hiato> some formatting mistakes corrected for the nitpicky http://rafb.net/p/6cEjVr14.txt
17:38:40 <Hiato> last formatting mistake corrected, saved as plain text as opposed to C++ :P http://rafb.net/p/6xzcyI52.txt
17:40:06 <Hiato> (and yeah, it's as of yet unnamed)
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17:50:04 <tusho_> My connection is rusty.
17:54:57 <Hiato> any ideas on the spec?
17:57:47 <tusho_> Not sure, but it looks good.
17:57:55 <ais523> I'm doing something else right now, it looked vaguely interesting though
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17:58:43 <Hiato> yay, no fatal flaws then :)
17:58:48 <ais523> strange quit message too
17:58:59 <ais523> it's like a netsplit with only one server
17:59:09 <ais523> no, actually tusho was the ghost
17:59:17 <tusho_> I'M THE GHOST'S GHOST, AIS523
17:59:50 <ais523> (presumably the bold on that won't have come through due to the channel mode)
18:07:23 <tusho_> ais523: have you seen that link to the message which originated the IMG tag?
18:07:40 <tusho_> with a discussion right next to it with Guido van Rossum of python fame arguing with someone about xmosaic
18:07:47 <tusho_> ais523: http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0182.html
18:07:59 <tusho_> http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0184.html guido
18:08:09 <tusho_> http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0189.html
18:08:15 <tusho_> {I seem to remember something about a patch to httpd to allow mapping
18:08:15 <tusho_> onto a command, rather than a file, but I can't remember where. Am I
18:08:15 <tusho_> hallucinating, or can someone let me know where this thing is?}
18:12:45 <Sgeo> I'm almost certain that I was using the web in 1995, with pictures, reading about Y2K
18:12:53 <Sgeo> Unless my memory is bad?
18:13:00 <ais523> Sgeo: that discussion's from 1993, despite the subdomain
18:13:34 <Sgeo> And from 1993 we got to 1995 a widely used web with IMG standardised?
18:13:34 * tusho_ got his first computer at 3 and a net connection at 4.
18:13:46 <tusho_> Sgeo: There wasn't much formal process then.
18:13:51 <tusho_> The guy just added it to the xmosaic code.
18:13:59 <tusho_> And all 5 users added <IMG> to their pages.
18:14:19 <tusho_> But the net _did_ explode soon after mosaic came along.
18:15:28 * Sgeo can't remember when he first used the web
18:15:38 <Sgeo> Other than a possibly false memory from 1995
18:15:46 <Sgeo> I adapted this name in 2001, I think
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18:54:57 <tusho_> ais523: do you think my ambig-quotes might be a good basis for an esolang?
18:55:17 <tusho_> a lang requiring tons of nesting but with ambig-quotes as the only means
19:01:04 <tusho_> Sgeo: parens with just one symbol
19:01:24 <tusho_> '''a' b' ''c' ''d''' e'
19:01:35 <tusho_> (((a) b) ((c) ((d))) e)
19:01:43 <tusho_> whitespace sensitive of course
19:20:33 <Slereah2> So then it isn't with one symbol D:
19:22:37 <tusho_> It just happens to be in tune with the innate nature of whitespace.
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19:45:49 <tusho_> I have some code in a weird languge on my HD
19:45:56 <tusho_> It's like a blend of C, Limbo, and Pascal.
19:46:02 <tusho_> Pretty sure I wrote it. :p
19:46:10 <tusho_> Pretty sure it's my language, too.
19:46:16 <tusho_> Don't think I ever wrote an implementation, either :|
19:46:25 <oklopol> was it like a fuck man i haf situation?
19:47:29 <tusho_> it has some odd control structures
19:47:31 <tusho_> foreach is called 'iter'
19:47:50 <tusho_> seems I translated some SDL code into it too
19:48:26 <tusho_> lament: how is ruby a blend of c, limbo and pascal?
19:48:29 <tusho_> which calls foreach 'iter'?
19:57:55 <tusho_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Qq
19:57:56 <oklopol> tbh i don't think the name is all that important
19:58:17 <oklopol> qq, double queue, like a deque
19:58:20 <tusho_> Munges the quoted program argument with itself.
19:58:29 <tusho_> ais523? I think you helped me with that lang
19:58:40 <oklopol> i have no idea why i shared that random association.
19:58:47 <oklopol> but whaeva, i do what i want
19:58:47 <tusho_> # (arity 1+) The first argument must be an integer. An integer is returned, which when called as a command, is like calling the first argument with the arguments of the rest of the arguments to this command plus the arguments passed to the returned command. (...Of course!)
19:58:50 <ais523> tusho_: did I? I've never seen it before
19:59:00 <tusho_> ais523: -shrug- it's weird, either way
20:00:28 <tusho_> ais523: pretty sure you DID help
20:13:30 <tusho_> How your rants inspire laughter.
20:16:51 <tusho_> If[#1==0, 1, #1 #0[#1-1]]&
20:16:57 <tusho_> That's a factorial in Mathematica.
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20:18:55 <oklopol> i understood that instantly without knowing the language
20:19:16 <oklopol> except i have no idea what the & is.
20:19:24 <tusho_> oklopol: it denotes a magical function
20:19:28 <tusho_> that gets #N as its Nth argument
20:19:32 <tusho_> #0 is the function itself.
20:19:46 <tusho_> oklopol: that's pretty insane, though
20:19:55 <ais523> tusho_: you can do the same in shellscript
20:20:07 <tusho_> ais523: but these can be anonymous
20:20:10 <ais523> oklopol: only in arguments to main, giving you the name of the executable
20:20:19 <tusho_> this works for unnamed function
20:20:19 <ais523> tusho_: in a shellscript $0 is the name of the script itself
20:20:27 <tusho_> ais523: doesn't work for unnamed functions
20:20:38 <tusho_> #0& <-- a function that returns itself
20:20:47 <ais523> tusho_: it works whatever the name of the script, and unnamed functions have names really, pretty much, you just don't see them
20:20:54 <oklopol> anyway, quite a pretty syntax, perhaps i should learn mathematica
20:21:31 <ais523> oklopol: it isn't a pretty syntax once you start using it, it badly needs to be reverse-polish or something because you get huge messes with lots of nested square brackets where you can't match a function to its arguments easily
20:21:33 <tusho_> hah, more xah lee rant
20:21:52 <tusho_> "I consider arc a asshole creation, and Scheme with its people and r6rs motherfucking assholes."
20:22:01 <tusho_> I consider them to be motherfucking assholes, verily, indeed.
20:22:07 <tusho_> Would you like a cup of tea old bean?
20:24:40 <tusho_> UNIX pipes are kind of concatenative, right?
20:25:05 <ais523> in a concatenative lang all commands are functions from input to output mapping stacks to stacks
20:25:12 <ais523> but UNIX pipes send streams rather than stacks
20:25:20 <ais523> that's where the analogy fails
20:25:24 <tusho_> concatenative just requires forall programs a, b. ab == a.b
20:25:49 <tusho_> a b c cat | xyz grep | sort | uniqe *g*
20:25:52 <ais523> well, I suppose so, but that's just a property, the paradigm is IMO more restrictive
20:26:02 <tusho_> ais523: that's pretty much the definition of a concat lang
20:26:31 <ais523> tusho_: well, I spent a while yesterday arguing that Forth wasn't "properly concatenative" because it didn't have a concatenative-lang-like flow structure
20:26:46 <ais523> Forth's pretty much imperative in terms of program flow, despite being stack-based
20:26:47 <tusho_> concatenative?(L) = forall programs(L) => P, Q. concatenate(P,Q) = compose(P,Q).
20:27:01 <tusho_> and what you're saying is that forth isn't idiomatically concatenative
20:27:08 <tusho_> but it's still a concatenative paradigm language
20:27:20 <tusho_> er, concatenative?(L) = forall programs(L) => P, Q. concatenate(P,Q) = compose(Q,P).
20:27:20 <ais523> I treat "concatenative" as meaning more the idiom than the mathematical property
20:27:28 <tusho_> ais523: that's not how most people refer to it as
20:27:40 <ais523> maybe I need a new word for my way of thinking
20:28:47 <tusho_> mm, that's a nice word.
20:31:20 <tusho_> ais523: thoughts on concatenative languages-
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20:31:29 <tusho_> it's a good idea, because it's reduces nesting a lot
20:31:34 <tusho_> which is a problem with reading programs
20:31:44 <tusho_> having the arguments in 'reverse' just isn't that nice
20:31:47 <tusho_> you end up reading it backwards
20:31:51 <ais523> tusho_: especially Mathematica, that drove me to concat langs more or less after being forced to use it for a month or so
20:31:57 <tusho_> eyes shoot forward to the word, then shoot back
20:32:06 <tusho_> there must be a way to blend them satisfactorally
20:33:04 <tusho_> ais523: thoughts on how to blend them?
20:33:40 <ais523> I find concatenative pretty natural, first you calculate the args and then you do something with them
20:33:57 <ais523> I tend to try to read langs in evaluation order (or for langs like Haskell, pseudo-evaluation order)
20:34:01 <tusho_> "Hello, " "world!" ++ print
20:34:11 <tusho_> Your eyes skip ahead to ++, and you read the two arguments.
20:34:13 <tusho_> Then you read 'print'.
20:34:22 <tusho_> So it's not like an applicative language, but it still has skipping forwards with your eyes
20:34:22 <ais523> for concatenative langs that's left to right continuously, what could be simpler?
20:34:28 <tusho_> which is unnatural and distracting
20:34:36 <tusho_> I am uncertain of the solution
20:34:53 <ais523> I'm not the only person like this, by the way, someone on proggit mentioned how they read functional langs right to left for this reason
20:35:22 <oklopol> i read stack-based shit left to right, usualy
20:35:37 <oklopol> i also read functional shit left to right, usually
20:35:46 <tusho_> oklopol: the point is that if you have a lot of string mangling, say
20:35:57 <ais523> oklopol: well, I read Befunge in IP direction, which isn't always left to right
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20:35:57 <tusho_> then your eyes will skip ahead to "what are we doing with these two piecesof data?"
20:36:14 <ais523> tusho_: ah, you want to know how data's used before looking at how it's generated?
20:36:32 <ais523> I suppose for langs like Perl where a function's data type affects the evaluation of its arguments, that's necessary
20:36:35 <tusho_> ais523: when you have a lot of operations at once, yes
20:36:41 <ais523> but most lang the types of the argument affect the function
20:36:53 <tusho_> i'm not satisfied with seeing you build up data, then bam, oh, that's what we're doing with them
20:37:06 <tusho_> i'd like to hear "we're going to concatenate some stuff together" first
20:37:10 <tusho_> so I know wtf I'm reading
20:38:01 <ais523> tusho_: many Underload programs I see and/or write don't use the data immediately after calculating, they just let it sit on the stack for a while
20:38:01 <tusho_> if we go purely concatenative
20:38:05 <tusho_> then a function starts with a load of code
20:38:09 <ais523> in fact how it's used may depend on calculations done later
20:38:11 <tusho_> I know what it's going to be caled
20:38:18 <tusho_> so only then will I get a rough, one-word idea of what it'll do
20:38:29 <tusho_> and it's only at the _very end_ when I even know we're defining a function!
20:39:59 <ais523> hmm... XML has an interesting solution to this problem
20:40:04 <ais523> because tags are labeled at both ends
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20:40:30 <tusho_> ais523: impractical, though
20:40:36 <tusho_> not nice for coding, certainly
20:40:46 <tusho_> "Define function! Stuff! Stop define function!"
20:40:54 <tusho_> Besides, with that, you have a fixed argument list.
20:40:54 <ais523> tusho_: actually VHDL does that
20:40:57 <tusho_> == it's not really concatenative.
20:41:08 <ais523> tusho_: yes, I know XML isn't concatenative
20:41:12 <ais523> nor is VHDL for that matter
20:41:14 <oklopol> i want a tc language that has absolutely no modularity, so that you have to have it all in your head before you know what it does
20:41:18 <ais523> but then arguably VHDL isn't nice for coding
20:41:33 <ais523> I've been trying to think about a lang like that, but have been failing more or less
20:41:54 <oklopol> that would be so awesome, assuming it's done well, of course simple to do something like programs being some sort of a hash value that's expanded into the program...
20:42:17 <ais523> one thing I thought of was hash-based in a different way
20:42:18 <oklopol> so that there's no non trivial way to make a wimpmode for it.
20:42:35 <ais523> it took the md5 of your program, interpreted that as commands that were appended onto the end of the program, and repeated
20:42:36 <oklopol> something like a weird syntax definition mess might lead into that
20:42:50 <ais523> so it basically repeatedly md5'd a self-modifying program
20:42:58 <ais523> and you had to modify it to give the correct hash results
20:43:12 <oklopol> but i don't want anything like that, i want something with graphs, so that when you actually do have the program in your head, you should have an idea what it does.
20:43:17 <ais523> actually, using a simpler and reverse-engineerable hash (i.e. a bad one) might be able to create a practicallish program
20:43:21 <oklopol> graphs just because... well, i love em
20:46:39 <oklopol> ais523: is underload tc if ^ drops the code after it?
20:46:58 <ais523> you mean like Muriel, ^ never returns?
20:47:03 <ais523> not sure, I'll have to think about that
20:47:21 <oklopol> you can't encode sk as simply at least
20:48:03 <tusho_> you just need to put the rest of the program into the thing you're doing
20:48:26 <ais523> tusho_: but things like stack tricks normally use ^ to do
20:48:38 <ais523> for instance I think you need ^ to swap elements 1 and 3 of the stack
20:49:23 <oklopol> that doesn't necessarily mean you couldn't just have whatever's after ^ now be before it, does it?
20:49:46 <ais523> oklopol: abc^def is equivalent to abc(def)*^
20:49:48 <oklopol> although you need some condition on the *... which prolly needs ^
20:49:57 <ais523> but unfortunately there's no obvious way to get programs into that form
20:50:20 <oklopol> what if you just do, err that? :P
20:50:31 <oklopol> i think it fails if you start passing ^'s around
20:51:55 <ais523> tusho_: that mangles (:^):^ badly, into (:():^)*^
20:52:01 <ais523> which isn't even in the required form
20:52:18 <ais523> nor particularly meaningful, in fact it's an error
20:52:26 <tusho_> well, consider it to end at the ) :)
20:52:38 <oklopol> doubt it still works that simply
20:52:47 <oklopol> quite simple to try raelly.
20:52:58 <ais523> well in that case (:^):^ fails if ^ obliterates the stack too and succeeds otherwise
20:53:05 <ais523> but it probably fails on more complicated programs
20:53:45 <oklopol> (()(*))(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^ => (()(*))(~:(:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^)*^):^
20:54:26 <ais523> oklopol: what did you change there?
20:54:36 <ais523> oklopol: oh, I see now
20:54:53 <oklopol> but it doesn't actually keep it like that, when you evaluate it.
20:54:55 <ais523> AnMaster: I haven't tried yet, been busy with ICFP, and then tired after that
20:54:59 <ais523> oklopol: you forgot the first ^
20:55:01 <oklopol> it's just when there's no nesting that this works
20:56:13 <AnMaster> ais523, care to make the rather simple fixes to make current cfunge work with c-intercal, I mentioned what was needed in a mail iirc
20:56:54 <ais523> I'm still a bit tired and haven't been coding other than ICFP recently
20:56:59 <ais523> but they'll definitely be done before release
20:57:16 <AnMaster> valgrind --leak-check=full bin/ick -b pit/beer.i
20:57:30 <ais523> AnMaster: what's interesting about that?
20:57:43 <oklopol> not sure if it works as it used to, but it seems to calculate fibs anyway
20:57:46 <AnMaster> ais523, some leaks that look rather localized
20:57:53 <ais523> oklopol: the program will still work after that transformation, but not if you redefine ^ I don't think
20:58:01 <oklopol> also every time ^ is executed there, it is the last char
20:58:16 <ais523> oklopol: ah, that is interesting
20:58:34 <oklopol> but, wonder if that is true for any tc subset of programs
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20:59:03 <oklopol> because it clearly isn't for all programs, as you can pass ^ around any way you like
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21:00:07 <tusho_> oklopol: what about when you have (^)
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21:00:09 <tusho_> and end up calling that
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21:02:09 <oklopol> i never said programs actually stay equal even if you do that transformation and drop the "call stack"
21:02:17 <oklopol> just that fibs seem to work
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21:03:17 <AnMaster> ais523, btw your interfunge is rather slow
21:03:29 <AnMaster> ais523, but faster than zfunge and some other ones :D
21:03:42 <ais523> AnMaster: interfunge isn't mine, it's J^4's
21:03:58 <AnMaster> ais523, do you understand how it works?
21:04:50 <ais523> AnMaster: only vaguely, I haven't looked at it in detail but I patched a mistake in its go-away command
21:06:56 <AnMaster> an optimized cfunge really executes too fast for stuff like the game of life in b93
21:07:32 <AnMaster> $ pit/interfunge < ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/mycology.b98
21:07:32 <AnMaster> ICL241I VARIABLES MAY NOT BE STORED IN WEST HYPERSPACE
21:07:43 <tusho_> AnMaster: it's not befunge-98...
21:07:55 <AnMaster> shouldn't it ignore everything outside the first 25x80 then...
21:07:56 <tusho_> come on, even you could have guessed that
21:08:10 <ais523> AnMaster: the spec doesn't say that
21:08:11 <tusho_> do you know it didn't?
21:08:17 <ais523> it just says programs are 25 by 80
21:08:25 <AnMaster> ais523, also what does "WEST HYPERSPACE" mean?
21:08:36 <ais523> interfunge is one of the few Befunge-93 interps I know that enforces this rule rather than ignoring the extra elements
21:08:40 <ais523> AnMaster: it means array-out-of-bounds
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21:09:18 <ais523> normally the messages are related to the error pretty strongly, so they're easy to remember once you've seen them once
21:10:49 <tusho_> ais523: huh just realised what a nested/flat(concatenative) mix is
21:12:00 <AnMaster> ais523, I get same error when making the program 25x80
21:13:06 <tusho_> AnMaster: zomgz!!! Mycology fails on b93 interps!
21:13:08 <ais523> well, I've run it succesfully in the past
21:13:15 <ais523> tusho_: it's meant to succeed, it has a b93 section
21:13:24 <tusho_> is the b93 section in 25x80?
21:13:49 <AnMaster> tusho_, so stop being such a stupid git ;P
21:13:52 <ais523> AnMaster: also for technical reasons the program has to end with a blank line in interfunge because INTERCAL has no EOF-detection
21:14:03 <ais523> after the 25 original lines
21:14:07 <AnMaster> ais523, I see, it didn't end in blank line
21:14:19 <AnMaster> even with blank line same error
21:14:21 <ais523> but you should get a different error if it doesn't end in a blank line
21:15:37 <AnMaster> ais523, though this may not work for other reasons, it should still fit within 25x80 according to emacs http://rafb.net/p/2woPve50.html
21:15:54 <AnMaster> ais523, and it cause west of hyperspace error
21:15:57 <ais523> AnMaster: I just tested on my end and it worked
21:16:01 <ais523> let me compare my version to yours
21:16:44 <ais523> let me run your program at my end
21:16:55 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed doesn't affect it
21:17:14 <AnMaster> ais523, what program? the pi one isn't mine, but it can be found in examples directory in cfunge
21:17:32 <ais523> AnMaster: mycology clipped to 25x80
21:18:03 <ais523> I get a west-hyperspace error with your program
21:18:33 <ais523> AnMaster: look at the program
21:18:38 <ais523> look at line 2 specifically
21:18:50 <ais523> reading backwards, >0399*p
21:18:56 <ais523> it's trying to p in (81,2)
21:19:04 <AnMaster> ais523, well that you should error check for
21:19:07 <ais523> which is out of bounds in Befunge-93
21:19:10 <ais523> presumably not in Befunge-97
21:19:13 <ais523> and I didn't write interfunge
21:19:33 <ais523> besides, interfunge just lets INTERCAL do the error checking and report an appropriate error message
21:19:58 <AnMaster> > 0#@>. 1#@v>#@,55+"skrow , :DOOG",,,,,,,,,,,,,,1#v:$v>"pud t'nseod : DAB",,,,,,,v
21:20:06 <AnMaster> so that line should be short enough
21:20:34 <AnMaster> $ wc -l /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf
21:20:34 <AnMaster> 24 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf
21:20:37 <AnMaster> $ pit/interfunge < /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf
21:20:37 <AnMaster> ICL241I VARIABLES MAY NOT BE STORED IN WEST HYPERSPACE
21:20:56 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/pynyck85.html
21:21:04 <AnMaster> it even contains the blank line you wanted
21:21:38 <ais523> $ ls -l mycology-stripped.bf
21:21:38 <ais523> -rw-r--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 1864 2008-07-15 21:15 mycology-stripped.bf
21:21:44 <ais523> is your version the same size?
21:22:16 <AnMaster> -rw-r--r-- 1 arvid arvid 1968 15 jul 22.21 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf
21:22:26 <ais523> I wonder why it's bigger
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21:22:41 <ais523> ah, that would be the problem
21:22:54 <AnMaster> ais523, well in b93 you are allowed to not support it
21:23:14 <ais523> AnMaster: again, it's not my befunge-93 interp, ok?
21:23:18 <ais523> complain to J^4 about it not me
21:23:22 <AnMaster> $ du -b ~/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf
21:23:22 <AnMaster> 1944 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/mycology/my93.bf
21:24:19 <ais523> AnMaster: it's using INTERCAL numeric output
21:24:22 <AnMaster> ais523, it makes newlines where it shouldn't
21:24:34 <AnMaster> I don't care about using roman numerals
21:24:40 <ais523> AnMaster: INTERCAL always outputs numbers with newlines so that it can put the overbars on
21:24:45 <AnMaster> but the newlines after numerals are just plain wrong
21:24:54 <AnMaster> so it fails mycology in other words
21:24:55 <ais523> e.g. 10000 in Roman numerals is X with an underscore above it
21:24:58 <ais523> which is two lines tall
21:25:10 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe, but it is still wrong in befunge93. period.
21:25:16 <ais523> I don't think it's meant to be conforming in that respect
21:25:26 <ais523> besides befunge93 says 'decimal' in the docs so it doesn't allow Roman numerals
21:25:39 <AnMaster> ais523, also it fails in another point:
21:26:02 <tusho_> AnMaster: it's written in frucking intercal
21:26:06 <tusho_> do you want it to be perfect?!
21:26:12 <tusho_> <AnMaster> tusho_, so stop being such a stupid git ;P
21:26:18 <ais523> also it was J^4's first INTERCAL program, cut them some slack
21:26:22 <tusho_> i don't think that was warranted, AnMaster
21:26:36 <AnMaster> tusho_, I'm afraid I forgot the ~
21:26:51 <tusho_> though I guess curse levels are hard to learn in a foreign language :)
21:29:03 <AnMaster> should I implement TERM tonight?
21:29:12 <ais523> which fingerprint's that?
21:29:27 <tusho_> AnMaster: if you can do that then you can do trds!
21:29:36 <AnMaster> tusho_, not really, this is easier
21:29:54 <ais523> tusho_: trds is amazingly difficult to implement because of all the metadata you have to track
21:30:00 <ais523> it's worse than call/cc
21:30:09 <AnMaster> yes I have read ccbi sources for it
21:30:25 <AnMaster> and well, not just feral, but positively wild
21:32:01 <ais523> arguably it's worse than IFFI in terms of feralness
21:32:53 <AnMaster> ais523, yes as IFFI doesn't have the issue of concurrency at the same time
21:34:20 <AnMaster> in fact I won't need ncurses, I will just need termcap
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21:58:12 <tusho_> ais523: do you know xpath?
21:58:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you want TERM to work on linux see: man curs_terminfo
21:58:24 <AnMaster> tusho_, do you know buzzwords? ;P
21:58:33 <tusho_> AnMaster: xpath isn't a buzzword..
21:58:38 <tusho_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XPath
21:58:46 <AnMaster> tusho_, well it was turned into one for a bit
21:59:01 <AnMaster> same way as java isn't a buzzword, or .NET isn't
21:59:07 <tusho_> AnMaster: that's just the "OMG XML TECHNOLOGIES" buzzword categorisation system
21:59:44 <tusho_> AnMaster: You say that but somehow I think you are just blindly repeating what you've heard.
21:59:51 <ais523> tusho_: what advantages does that have over CSS?
21:59:51 <tusho_> XML has many use-cases, and they're not s-expressions'.
21:59:59 <tusho_> ais523: it can do more complex selectors
22:00:02 <AnMaster> tusho_, well I do prefer S-Expressions
22:00:11 <AnMaster> supertux use it for data format
22:00:18 <AnMaster> and since I worked a lot on that project...
22:00:21 <tusho_> AnMaster: XML and its assorted technologies are far more suitable in numerous cases.
22:00:40 <oklopol> i prefer sandwiches over dog poo, even though dog poo has much more uses.
22:00:43 <AnMaster> HTML works well, because it is mostly text with some markup in
22:00:45 <ais523> I like using JSON for some of the things that people misuse XML for, but it has leigitimate uses too
22:00:57 <AnMaster> while xml for data storage gets a LOT of overhead
22:01:02 <ais523> oklopol: really? Can you substantiate the second part of that statement?
22:01:31 <tusho_> AnMaster: look, XML is usable in a wide range of cases, and most "XML sucks, use s-expressions" people are totally wrong
22:01:40 <tusho_> in this case, I am manipulating a markup document.
22:01:47 <oklopol> ais523: you can make pretty much anything out of it, just have to dry it up
22:02:01 <oklopol> sandwiches, well, you can eat them.
22:02:10 <tusho_> AnMaster: eXtensible MARKUP language
22:02:16 <oklopol> you can also eat dog poo, which might be the xml equivalent of coding in xml
22:02:16 <ais523> oklopol: have you never made sandwich sculptures before?
22:02:17 <AnMaster> tusho_, however for some stuff XML overhead is just a quite huge
22:02:24 <AnMaster> tusho_, yes indeed, problem is people misuse it
22:02:27 <oklopol> ais523: well no, but i doubt that'd work all that well
22:02:37 <oklopol> "xml equivalent of coding in xml"
22:02:38 <tusho_> AnMaster: that's a ridiculous argument
22:02:38 <ais523> admittedly, I haven't, but it would seem like a reasonable pastime
22:02:45 <tusho_> "X is bad because when you misuse it, it has huge overhead"
22:02:48 <AnMaster> "OMG XML TECHNOLOGIES" buzzword
22:02:56 <AnMaster> tusho_, it does have overhead for a lot of stuff
22:03:03 <tusho_> AnMaster: all of which are misuses.
22:03:21 <oerjan> ais523: now i'm wondering if you have seen/made many dog poo sculptures...
22:03:27 <ais523> tusho_: one issue is that XML has huge overhead even when used properly, e.g. look at XHTML vs. that ruby-based framework you used for the notary report
22:03:47 <tusho_> we can all accept that
22:04:06 <AnMaster> and S-Expressions wouldn't be good for HTML
22:04:12 <tusho_> because HTML should be lenient and basically nothing should result in a "BROKEN PAGE"
22:04:25 <tusho_> xml, however, requires a total abort on invalid documents (which is useful when it's used for the things it should be)
22:04:31 <tusho_> ergo, xhtml = broken for the web and always will be
22:04:48 <lament> why should HTML be lenient?
22:05:14 <lament> laziness has nothing to do with it
22:05:18 <tusho_> AnMaster: that's the stupidest thing you've said all day, ok.
22:05:22 <AnMaster> tusho_, should an ADA compiler be lenient?
22:05:28 <tusho_> lament: you don't *really* want to be bombarded with links to many-paged articles about it, do you?
22:05:55 <AnMaster> tusho_, also it was sarcasm...
22:06:23 <ais523> AnMaster: also Haskell is lazy, is that an insult?
22:06:27 <lament> tusho_: no, because all those articles are dumb
22:06:41 <tusho_> lament: either you're reading the wrong ones or you're just wrong
22:07:04 <lament> tusho_: if all web browsers suddenly started rejecting all malformed HTML, it would not be that big of a deal
22:07:15 <tusho_> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
22:07:23 <tusho_> lament: go and hack up a patch to your browser to do that.
22:07:33 <AnMaster> lament, I think you are wrong, a lot of pages doesn't validate
22:07:35 <tusho_> then come back to me and remark on how stupid that idea was
22:07:49 <ais523> well, if enough people did that, a lot more pages would start validating
22:08:01 <ais523> just like when Firefox became popular a lot more sites stopped using IE-only markup
22:08:14 <tusho_> ais523: actually, everyone would suddenly stop using firefox
22:08:18 <tusho_> because google won't work on it
22:09:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ... you do realize I already tried to use those routines
22:09:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I'm using them with some limited success atm
22:09:48 <lament> AnMaster: i never said that many pages validate.
22:10:00 <lament> tusho_: I said "all web browsers", not "my browser"
22:10:08 <ais523> tusho_: actually, I just looked at the source for Google, it looks like HTML 2 or something, maybe it is
22:10:23 <tusho_> lament: People would ring up microsoft and yell at them that they broke the internet.
22:10:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what was the problem for you?
22:10:27 <tusho_> Then microsoft would reverse it.
22:10:34 <tusho_> Then people would stop using FF because it still broke the internet.
22:10:56 <tusho_> ais523: it doesn't have a doctype - right off the bat, it can't validate
22:10:58 <Deewiant> I probably told you at the time, though :-P
22:11:04 <lament> tusho_: i agree that backwards compatibility is important, although in this case all it would take is microsoft saying "no, we won't revert it" to turn it into a non-issue.
22:11:20 <ais523> tusho_: yes, also the content of the page doesn't correspond to any modern doctype, that's why I guessed html 2
22:11:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the code I was using is still in term.d, just commented out there
22:11:26 <oklopol> backwards compatibility sucks ass
22:11:27 <lament> tusho_: but when it's the _only_ reason, then at least you can try to improve the situation in the future, and hope that eventually all the old pages will just die of old page.
22:11:28 <tusho_> lament: That would be called "Microsoft's stock drops because they broke the internet for the majority of users."
22:11:34 <lament> tusho_: and XHTML is an attempt to do that.
22:11:41 <tusho_> Followed by "Microsoft reverses decision to reject invalid pages."
22:11:50 <tusho_> (I am intentionally misusing 'internet' here.)
22:11:51 <oklopol> humanity should be erased every 10 years, with only the most pure inventions and top scientists to repopulate
22:11:53 <ais523> tusho_: actually IE8 rejects invalid pages by default
22:12:00 <tusho_> ais523: invalid XHTML pages
22:12:03 <tusho_> because it's mandatory
22:12:09 <oklopol> but anyway, i'm sure you agree
22:12:18 <lament> tusho_: so what's the problem, then?
22:12:20 <tusho_> but a lot of pages identifying as XHTML actually are
22:12:21 <ais523> yes, and tries to parse pages standardsly even if they use markup that worked on IE7
22:12:27 <tusho_> because you have to know what XHTML is
22:12:29 <tusho_> which means you know what web standards are; etc
22:12:34 <ais523> tusho_: in fact almost all of them, because the ones that don't don't work
22:12:44 <tusho_> that is not the reason
22:12:58 <ais523> all modern browsers reject bad XHTML for obvious reasons
22:13:11 <tusho_> because the spec absolutely, completely requires them to
22:13:20 <ais523> yes, so people trying to test an XHTML website will find it doesn't work in anything if it's broken
22:13:23 <tusho_> and because the only people who tag their pages as XHTML in the doctype already have checked their pages
22:13:39 <tusho_> i'd vouch that a hell of a lot of web page authors don't know what the w3c is
22:13:50 <ais523> tusho_: well, if they tried without checking their page it wouldn't work
22:14:03 <ais523> if HTML had acted the same way all along, pretty much the entire internet would be valid HTML
22:14:13 <tusho_> ais523: how about you draft a patch up for this and send it off to mozilla.org and watch them all laugh at you...?
22:14:23 <tusho_> but it'd also be a heck of a lot smaller
22:14:24 <ais523> tusho_: it can't be changed /now/ for HTML, is what I'm saying
22:14:34 <tusho_> because the barrier to entry is immediately huge
22:14:40 <Sgeo> Someone once sent me a link to a log on IM, and told me to read it in IE, because it was broken in Fx
22:14:41 <tusho_> there's such a thing as a "completely wrong" page, it won't show
22:14:45 <tusho_> you need to check it with a special thing
22:14:52 <tusho_> and it gives you messages telling you you're wrong
22:14:53 <ais523> tusho_: nah, I don't think so, most people use tools like FrontPage or Dreamweaver nowadays and they could easily be fixed to produce valid HTML, I hope
22:14:56 <tusho_> and you have to fix them
22:14:59 <tusho_> until it stops yelling at you
22:15:13 <tusho_> ais523: ever seen a badge on a web page saying "Coded in NOTEPAD: the only true way" or whatever?
22:15:14 <Sgeo> Something with encoding. Also, it was done in MS Word
22:15:23 <tusho_> There's a fair selection of people who think they're hardcore for handcoding invalid html
22:15:28 <ais523> tusho_: no, actually I haven't seen that for any website bit vi
22:15:37 <ais523> s/website bit/editor but/
22:15:54 <ais523> does vi automatically put advertising onto the bottom of websites it edits, or something?
22:15:54 <tusho_> ais523: you venture on the sane part of the internet, then :)
22:16:03 <ais523> that seems completely against vi spirit
22:16:10 <tusho_> vi just love waving their e-peen around
22:16:15 <ais523> I see it with vi quite a bit though
22:16:28 <tusho_> yes, because most of them think they're awesome for using a particular editor
22:16:32 <tusho_> it's quite common on emacs pages too
22:16:39 <tusho_> but emacs users seem to be less religious
22:18:00 <ais523> tusho_: actually I thought emacs users tended to be even more religious than vi users, except me
22:18:25 <tusho_> they're usually more religious but only if you talk to them about it
22:18:28 <ais523> emacs was, of course, invented specifically as a program for Richard Stallman to be able to do everything he liked from one definitely-Stallman-free program
22:18:31 <tusho_> vi users are less religious but they're religious _all the time_
22:18:47 <ais523> and other people have benefitted from that by coincidence
22:18:51 <ais523> sort of like free-loading
22:19:30 <tusho_> ais523: it amuses me that he would think "what I need is an OS"
22:19:33 <tusho_> i thought he already thought that...
22:19:58 <ais523> tusho_: not exactly, he was building an OS, what he needed was an applicatoin
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22:20:04 <ais523> not more than one though, he wasn't greedy
22:20:15 <tusho_> ais523: but the application is an OS, effectively
22:20:19 <tusho_> it's a platform for running applications
22:20:23 <ais523> well, it has to be if it's only one application
22:20:28 <tusho_> that's what emacs is, it just happens to be structured like an editor
22:20:29 <ais523> and yet it does everything
22:20:39 <tusho_> it's an OS that has an editor in its very core due to bad design
22:20:54 <ais523> tusho_: well, maybe a shell not an OS
22:20:57 <ais523> it isn't really a kernel
22:21:02 <ais523> by any stretch of the imagination
22:21:13 <tusho_> an os doesn't have to have a kernel
22:21:17 <ais523> and it doesn't have its own filesystem, just integrates with other things
22:21:20 <tusho_> Ubuntu is an OS and it's a different one from Gentoo
22:21:24 <ais523> ls has an Emacs option, I think
22:21:27 <tusho_> they share the kernel, filesystems, ...
22:21:43 <ais523> well, Ubuntu's the whole OS, whereas Emacs is just the shell
22:22:15 <tusho_> ais523: a shell can run any program
22:22:20 <ais523> Ubuntu comes bundled with Linux, Emacs doesn't
22:22:21 <tusho_> emacs can only run programs that are written for it
22:22:40 <ais523> tusho_: it can run other programs too, M-x shell-command and all that
22:23:01 <tusho_> ais523: that's totally cheating though :)
22:23:16 <ais523> tusho_: no it isn't, it forks and execs just like any other shell does
22:23:29 <tusho_> that's totally not the point though :|
22:23:38 <ais523> Emacs also happens to be a programming language interp, though, that's why it can run lots of programs written for it
22:23:53 <ais523> if you write a program in JavaScript does that make a web browser an OS?
22:24:36 <tusho_> but let's just drop this, it's going nowhere
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22:38:10 <AnMaster> ok I got it to work partly Deewiant
22:38:17 <AnMaster> by taking code from an ncurses example
22:38:38 <cherez> Confound you, quaterions!
22:38:55 <AnMaster> cherez, um what has they got to do with this?
22:39:03 <tusho_> AnMaster: Why does he have to talk about your topic?
22:39:07 <tusho_> Why can't he talk about what he wants?
22:39:25 <AnMaster> well I just got confounded by him
22:39:50 <cherez> I was just confounding them, and thought someone might come up with a quaternion based esolang.
22:39:51 * oerjan throws an octonion at cherez
22:40:24 <cherez> Those are the non-associative ones, right?
22:40:27 <oerjan> non-associative multiplication
22:44:41 <tusho_> ais523: how is overload doing
22:44:49 <ais523> not very much at present
22:44:57 <ais523> I think I may have to restart writing the interp a third time
22:45:05 <tusho_> ais523: what do you think about my longest-valid-command-name idea, btw?
22:45:05 <ais523> because it's the ideal lang to implement Shove in, I think
22:45:16 <tusho_> abcdefg - if you have 'ab', 'cdef', and 'g' as commands,
22:45:27 <ais523> tusho_: CLC-INTERCAL's parser does that
22:45:28 <tusho_> if you also have 'cde' and want it differently, ad a space
22:45:42 <ais523> also Cyclexa does that
22:45:46 <ais523> with @ rather than space
22:45:48 <tusho_> ais523: still, it's good for a golfing language
22:45:51 <ais523> but it has tiebreak rules
22:46:00 <tusho_> it'd sure help with golfscript-competitors
22:46:10 <ais523> so say if ab and bc are both commands, there'll be a defined parsing of abc
22:46:16 <ais523> which depends on the priorities of ab and bc
22:46:29 <ais523> and Cyclexa's deliberately designed to be golfable
22:46:41 <tusho_> abc would always be ab c
22:46:47 <ais523> whereas Overload was a golfing lang all along
22:46:55 <tusho_> ais523: remember, ninjacode needs to be fast too
22:46:55 <ais523> tusho_: Cyclexa parses based on which combination has the most meaning
22:47:10 <ais523> Overload intentionally ignores performance, on the basis that computers get better all the time
22:47:17 <ais523> and so do optimisation techniques
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22:47:35 <tusho_> ais523: it's kind of like saying that you should use a string rewriting language because computers are getting faster
22:47:44 <tusho_> besides, my language is meant to be able to exceed c speed
22:47:45 <ais523> this isn't a "should", it's a "can"
22:47:47 <tusho_> if you get down and dirty
22:47:59 <tusho_> the one thing ninjacode is not designed for is readability
22:48:04 <ais523> incidentally, I was thinking about the cfunge-speed argument you and AnMaster had
22:48:10 <tusho_> which is how it achieves this seemingly-impossible feat
22:48:14 <tusho_> ais523: different goals
22:48:18 <ais523> and decided the reason why golfing befunge for speed was silly was because it had no competitors
22:48:18 <tusho_> ninjacode is for totally pwning anagolf
22:48:37 <ais523> so maybe I'll try to write a really fast befunge-93 to asm compiler using a techinique someone suggested on the talk page
22:48:48 <ais523> of using self-modifying asm to do self-modifying Befunge
22:48:55 <tusho_> ais523: OMG THAT'S NOT BEFUNGE98!!!!!!!!!!!1112163717823612873681723612783
22:49:07 <AnMaster> <ais523> and decided the reason why golfing befunge for speed was silly was because it had no competitors <-- huh?
22:49:13 <tusho_> Of course, but that's the argument AnMaster will give you, ais523
22:49:36 <ais523> AnMaster: the reason trying to get cfunge as fast as possible seems a bit strange to tusho is simply because there's nothing to compare it to
22:49:51 <ais523> if there were two lightning-fast befunge implementatinos it would be more interesting
22:49:54 <AnMaster> ais523, well I can compare against a previous revision
22:49:59 <tusho_> <ais523> AnMaster: the reason trying to get cfunge as fast as possible seems a bit strange to tusho is simply because there's nothing to compare it to
22:50:01 <tusho_> and also, because, well
22:50:05 <tusho_> it's kind of a total waste of time.
22:50:12 <oklopol> nothing is a waste of time
22:50:14 <ais523> tusho_: no it isn't, if you were
22:50:16 <AnMaster> tusho_, well esoteric languages all are then
22:50:26 <tusho_> AnMaster: no they're not
22:50:28 <ais523> tusho_: think about it this way: what esolang would you say is the most practically useful?
22:50:42 <tusho_> ais523: not the point - interestingness
22:50:45 <ais523> I know it isn't a usual criterion for esolangs, but think about it
22:50:52 <tusho_> it doesn't make it any more interesting. it doesn't make it any more usable because nothing needs that speed. it's also blanketed (everything is optimized even if the optimization won't help much).
22:50:56 <ais523> I'd probably say Befunge, which is why Befunge is a good choice for speeding up
22:51:04 <tusho_> thus, it is a waste of time
22:53:19 <oklopol> god i hate it when people tell others what they should or should not do in their own time.
22:53:50 <tusho_> i'm telling him it's a complete waste of time
22:53:53 * oerjan wonders which esolang wastes the _most_ time ... when running
22:54:06 <oklopol> well i guess you're just expressing your opinion a bit annoyingly
22:54:10 <tusho_> and that's why I argue with him when someone defends it
22:54:17 <tusho_> err, when I argue with the defender
22:54:23 <tusho_> note to self - don't modify one part of a sentence and leave the other
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22:54:38 <oklopol> tusho_: perhaps, perhaps, i'm very, very tired.
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22:57:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you are there, in TERM fingerprint, should negative counts for "lines to go upwards" work?
22:58:14 <tusho_> AnMaster: TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS
22:58:27 <AnMaster> tusho_, you misread, I said TERM
22:59:33 <oerjan> someone reboot tusho please
22:59:52 <tusho_> oerjan: TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS
22:59:57 <tusho_> TRDS? TRDS TRDS TRDS TRDS! TRDS.
23:07:57 <oklopol> what is this trds everyone keeps talking about?
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23:31:15 <AnMaster> oklopol, http://web.archive.org/web/20020816190021/http://homer.span.ch/~spaw1088/funge.html#trds
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23:34:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I added a TERM using the functions from term.h, you may want to take a look at mine
23:34:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/fU6mi089.html
23:35:31 <oklopol> that's like... calculated call/cc
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23:36:44 <tusho_> oklopol: it even rewinds stdout
23:37:01 <AnMaster> oklopol, and NOT something I will ever implement
23:37:05 <AnMaster> ccbi does implement it however
23:40:11 <GregorR> Does it rewind stdout if you've piped it into something?
23:40:51 <tusho_> Think it detects tty-ness, GregorR
23:42:08 <AnMaster> there is no unputc, just ungetc
23:45:42 <tusho_> AnMaster: Just erase the chars on the screen.
23:46:10 <AnMaster> that may not work on some terminals
23:46:31 <AnMaster> a putp(clr_screen); in konsole at least will still leave scrollback
23:48:09 <tusho_> AnMaster: It just uses ncurses or whatever
23:49:28 <AnMaster> tusho_, well that is what putp(clr_screen); does
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