00:00:32 <psygnisfive> but from this i think its relatively trivial to reduce this to a non-ring based system
00:00:41 <tusho> psygnisfive: until you get to flow.
00:00:45 <psygnisfive> given that the ring positions are unaffected by operations.
00:02:44 <psygnisfive> i dont see anything that says what padd does.
00:02:55 <psygnisfive> not padd itself but the program position pointer.
00:04:34 <oklopol> what do you expect from the spec of a "Turning tarpit"
00:04:46 <psygnisfive> is the ppp the bit of the source thats currently being read?
00:04:46 <tusho> oklopol: i think thats intentional.
00:04:56 <tusho> psygnisfive: i would say so.
00:04:59 <tusho> that's what a pc is
00:05:08 <tusho> oklopol: think about it
00:05:11 <tusho> you TURN the wheel
00:05:52 <oklopol> stop rubbing it in my face, that was the stupidest mistake i've made in a month
00:05:54 <psygnisfive> again, i dont see why this is so terribly interesting.
00:06:16 <oklopol> well i'm not sure what you mean by that
00:06:37 <psygnisfive> the only way in which PAdd and If can affect flow unpredictably is when you jump to a position thats in the middle of an instruction that itself was for something else.
00:06:46 -!- Corun has joined.
00:07:01 <tusho> psygnisfive: because moving the wheel is extra insructions
00:07:03 <tusho> so you have to account for that
00:07:08 <tusho> which requires more instructions
00:07:12 <psygnisfive> but moving the wheel doesnt affect where you jump to.
00:07:23 <tusho> yes. to do arithmetic on the jump address.
00:07:27 <tusho> or conditionals on it
00:07:54 <psygnisfive> so in that respect moving the wheels can be tricky.
00:08:11 <tusho> psygnisfive: most things are gimmicks
00:08:16 <tusho> this one happens to make a certain area - jumping - harder
00:08:19 <tusho> and quite interesting
00:08:24 <tusho> nothing has to be the end of the world in new paradigm form
00:08:28 <tusho> it's mildly interesting for that one trait
00:08:50 <tusho> oh shut up, you're just fucking with terminology now
00:09:23 <psygnisfive> i mean, we can pile gimmick on top of gimmick until the language is so impossible to code in that it requires a novel the length of war and peace just to store a single number into the current register
00:09:46 <tusho> thats not what wheel is.
00:10:00 <tusho> it's not and you're being an idiot
00:10:05 <psygnisfive> without the wheel, you no longer have the monumental "omg the wheel fucks it all up!" thing
00:10:28 <tusho> psygnisfive: i think ill apply that to reactance
00:10:32 <oklopol> i haven't seen a bijection yet
00:10:42 <tusho> without the reactance programming, you no longer have the monumental <insert thing that reactance makes interesting>!
00:10:46 <tusho> reactance is gimmicky and sucks!
00:10:53 <psygnisfive> you can apply that reactions and you're correct. reactance ISNT supposed to be interesting.
00:11:07 <tusho> oh, so its meant to be boring and plain
00:11:11 <tusho> so why the fuck are you bothering with it
00:11:57 <psygnisfive> theres a reason i dont spam about reactance and try to keep it to separate rooms.
00:12:04 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
00:12:18 <tusho> well sorry for filling this room with conversation
00:12:29 <tusho> its much nicer when its dead
00:12:30 <psygnisfive> conversation about stupid shit is not conversation worth having.
00:12:42 <tusho> psygnisfive: excuse me, you are in #esoteric.
00:12:45 <psygnisfive> no, it was much nicer when we were actually discussing interesting things like "negative lists"
00:12:53 <oklopol> psygnisfive: get the sand off your vagina
00:13:08 <tusho> also, i'd say that since you spend half the time talking about gay sex, psygnisfive, that's pretty stupid shit that's not worth talking about on an irc channel related to esoteric programming languages
00:13:36 <oklopol> hey, that's not fair, he occasionally fights with you and calls you names.
00:13:49 <tusho> marginally more productive, i guess
00:14:21 <psygnisfive> im sorry, i just find it terribly frustrating that the sum total of esoteria is the same shit over and over
00:14:52 <tusho> im not aware of any other language using a rotating instruction wheel and the implications on control flow it has
00:15:00 <tusho> just because you don't personally find it a very interesting idea doesnt' mean that it sucks
00:15:06 <tusho> it just means that you're interested in other things.
00:15:18 <oklopol> anyway, psygnisfive, are you saying graphica isn't an awesome idea?
00:15:24 <psygnisfive> the wheel is a gimmick, as we've already established.
00:15:28 <oklopol> graphica is fucking perfect, man.
00:15:40 <psygnisfive> without the wheel, the implications for control are reduced drastically, if not entirely.
00:15:52 <psygnisfive> nevermind that TWO wheels is entirely superfluous as well.
00:15:56 <tusho> psygnisfive: gimmicks can lead to interesting ideas. tons of interesting esolangs come from gimmicks. it doesn't suck just because it builds stuff upon a gimmick and finds an interesting implication
00:16:17 <oklopol> yeah then it's just a computed goto, which is something not really any language has as the only way to do flow control
00:16:19 <psygnisfive> i dont see any interesting implications coming out of the wheels.
00:16:43 <oklopol> at least i haven't heard about other than err bob (?) and yabc
00:16:46 <tusho> psygnisfive: that's fine. that doesn't mean we haven't, and it doesn't mean you should go on a huge rant about how much it sucks
00:16:49 <psygnisfive> other than having to be purposelessly mindful of the number of operations to use.
00:17:09 <psygnisfive> the interesting part of the language is that you have to fight with the language to get it to work.
00:17:36 <oklopol> i see most interest in developing stuff for wheel that escapes the high-level tokenization you assume everyone will do for it
00:17:39 <tusho> psygnisfive: yes. that can lead to intersting ideas
00:17:41 <tusho> whether you like it or not
00:17:45 <psygnisfive> hey, it takes two people to argue. i said it was gimmicky. if you'd just said "yeah but so what" we wouldnt be here, would we.
00:18:10 <tusho> the interesting idea that comes out of it is the implication on its only form of control flow.
00:18:16 <psygnisfive> "fighting with the language" is the interesting idea of Whirl
00:18:34 <psygnisfive> since its the only thing that the wheels force you to do
00:18:54 <psygnisfive> you have to constantly be mindful of how many instructions youve used so that you dont get caught in the tangled web of instruction count
00:19:01 <tusho> this is a conversation filled with an infuriatingly large amount of stupid
00:19:40 <psygnisfive> man, this would've been a great discussion for a podcast, do you realize that?
00:19:48 <tusho> psygnisfive: what, 'no fuck you'
00:19:56 <tusho> at least mien would have ended with 'NOMADS!!!'
00:19:59 <psygnisfive> probably to say im an idiot, but THINK OF THE LISTENERSHIP
00:20:17 <oklopol> psygnisfive: have you done much with esolangs, btw? a lot of the fun is exactly in just the fact it's a fucking mindrape :)
00:20:42 <psygnisfive> thats what i dont like about esolangs-as-they-are. theres too much mindrape, and not enough mindfuck.
00:21:19 <tusho> psygnisfive: sez the person who will only ever rape me
00:21:21 <oklopol> well true, and quite well said, almost wanna quote that :P
00:21:22 <psygnisfive> esolangs arent actually esoteric, they're just pointlessly difficult.
00:21:33 <psygnisfive> well im a bottom, so i dont need to rape oklopol
00:21:40 <psygnisfive> and you're 12, what else would you do to a 12 year old?
00:21:46 <lilja> ooh I was just thinking how great it would be if I could just hear this conversation actually being talked
00:22:07 <tusho> we have to record that podcast tomorrow
00:22:12 <tusho> today though it's 00:22 and I am going in like five seconds.
00:22:26 <psygnisfive> if it were fought in person we'd just end up in an orgy! :O
00:22:57 <psygnisfive> and his cock is too small. i mean, really, im sorry tusho, but 12 year old cock is way too small.
00:23:13 <tusho> ok discussion entering uncanny valley.
00:23:13 <oklopol> yeah, so goddamn small it's ridiculous
00:23:23 <oklopol> what do you think about tusho's cock, lament?
00:23:33 <psygnisfive> cock is like wine, it gets better with age, but after 30 or so years it starts going down hill. :(
00:24:42 <ihope> Why are you reading the blank space to the right of yourself?
00:25:01 <psygnisfive> it's starting to look so real it looks fake? o_O
00:25:35 <psygnisfive> well, thats what the uncanny valley is. :(
00:25:49 <ihope> The uncanny valley is when something realistic slowly goes from looking like a realistic object to looking like a very ill human.
00:25:57 <ihope> Oh, I just realized I've had tusho on /ignore this whole time.
00:26:22 <tusho> the previous must be funny without me
00:26:24 <psygnisfive> the uncanny valley is the phenomena where the "humanness" of an item increases steadily as it objectively becomes more human like
00:26:25 <tusho> psygnisfive arguing with silence
00:26:37 <psygnisfive> up until just before it looks perfectly human
00:26:41 <tusho> psygnisfive: the uncanny valley is the phenomena where the "pedophileness" of an item increases steadily as it objectively becomes more pedophile like
00:26:47 <psygnisfive> where it temporarily drops to looking completely weird
00:27:13 <ihope> tusho: actually, quite boring.
00:27:29 <tusho> psygnisfive: i know
00:27:33 <tusho> that's why i love it
00:27:39 <psygnisfive> to continue with it would require that just before something is infact 100% pedo-ish it has to LOOK completely not pedoish
00:27:46 <tusho> since it implies that if you started
00:27:48 <tusho> being totally pedophillic
00:27:51 <tusho> it wouldn't be creepy any more
00:28:00 * ihope waits for the logs to load beyond 2005
00:28:27 <ihope> Ooh, they're to November...
00:28:46 <tusho> psygnisfive: That's the most strained innuendo ever.
00:29:26 <tusho> "Are you a robot, baby? Because you're sure in my uncanny alley."
00:29:39 <psygnisfive> my innuendo is straining these pants, lemme tell ya
00:30:16 <psygnisfive> uncanny alley, a small street behind bars where drunkards fuck ugly pros because they look beautiful?
00:33:51 <tusho> psygnisfive: Don't worry.
00:33:55 <tusho> There will be rape and podcasts tomorrow.
00:34:09 <ihope> Please tell whoever does the logs to put everything before this year in a separate directory. Right now I'm in September 2006.
00:40:48 <ihope> hrrrr doesn't sound very fun.
00:41:03 <ihope> Oh, the logs have stopped loading.
00:41:07 <psygnisfive> a prolonged version of the first syllable of the croatian word for "croatian"?
00:41:16 <lilja> could be waffles also
00:41:31 -!- tusho has quit.
00:41:50 <lilja> that's rather skillful
00:41:58 <lilja> since they're not ready
00:43:19 <lilja> I guess there's no sense in making them in that case
00:43:40 <oklopol> not making them would destroy the universe
00:43:43 <psygnisfive> if you dont make them, then i couldn't have will eventually steal them
00:43:48 <oklopol> i'd say better start making them :o
00:44:50 <psygnisfive> take your crazy reindeer language outta here, this is IRC!
00:45:39 <ihope> The word "paradox" is already clumped together; there's nothing you can do with it.
00:45:48 <ihope> Also, the "adox" is happy but the "par" is left out.
00:47:08 <ihope> The word "massage" clumps to "sagemas". "sagem" is happy, "as" is left out.
00:48:01 <ihope> "doing" clumps to "dogin"; in that, "do", "g" and "i" are happy while "n" is left out.
00:49:42 <ihope> "ihopewhat" clumps to "wihopehat", which is an odd case, as "wih" clashes, though you can do it into something like "w" left out, "i" happy, "hope" happy, "ha" left out, "t" happy.
00:49:42 <oklopol> be careful when mixing aou and äöy, they can't exist in the same word
00:50:17 <psygnisfive> wihopehat sounds like Generic Native American
00:51:45 <ihope> Hmph, all the words in that sentence clump to themselves except "sounds", which clumps to "soduns". And hey, the entire word "soduns" is happy.
00:51:54 <psygnisfive> wihopehat chumchukewaya utumqiquhejosiapata
00:52:16 <ihope> (By the way, in the above, if you want to get picky, rather than "ha" being left out, the stem of the "h" is happy and the rest of "ha" is left out.)
00:52:50 <ihope> Oh, it's a thing I used to do.
00:53:00 <ihope> My new thing is tapping out melodies on my teeth.
00:53:23 <psygnisfive> also, who DOESNT use their mouth to make melodies?
00:53:43 <psygnisfive> please, dont shoot me under the table just because i asked you to tell me about your mother.
00:53:59 <psygnisfive> there was no mention of tortoises before hand. D:
00:54:00 <ihope> I have five tooth-on-tooth positions that correspond to relative positions of notes, or four for simple melodies or six for complex ones.
00:55:08 <ihope> Take a word, like "sounds", and split it up into chunks of alternating vowels and consonants: "so un d s". Stick the chunks together in reverse: "sdunso". Repeat until you've done it an even number of times and it's no longer changing, so "soduns".
00:55:54 <psygnisfive> an even number of times and its no longer changing?
00:56:11 <ihope> If you do the thing to "soduns" twice, you get "soduns" again.
00:57:13 <psygnisfive> do it until an even number of split-reverses leaves you back at the start of that series of split-reverses.
00:58:09 <ihope> The o-like letters are acemnorsuvwxz, the b-like letters are bhkp, the d-like letters are dq, and the l-like letters are fgijlty. A b-like letter is equivalent to an l-like letter and an o-like letter, and a d-like letter is equivalent to an o-like letter and an l-like letter. Strings of letters are happy if they consist of an l with an equal number of os on each side of it.
00:58:43 <ihope> So "soduns" is "ooolooo", which has 3 letters on each side.
00:59:00 <psygnisfive> sounds like something oklopol would come up with
00:59:22 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
00:59:26 <ihope> "oklopol" is "olololool", which is "olo" (happy), "l" (happy), "olo" (happy), "o" (left out), "l" (happy).
01:00:27 <ihope> Then you'd be able to split everything up into ls and os, which would be happy.
01:00:33 <psygnisfive> on the grounds that since there are no l's, all the l's in the string have the same number of o's on either side.
01:01:27 <ihope> Hmm, that gives kind of a different sense of happiness.
01:01:56 <psygnisfive> my semantics professor loved that construction
01:02:07 <ihope> Well, it seems you're thinking "oolooloo" would be happy, where in my system it wouldn't.
01:02:33 <ihope> Hmm, so everybody that's nobody will be there! :-)
01:02:45 <ihope> o, k and l are obviously oklopol letters. In "ololobot", "b" and "t" serve as oklopol letters, though they're not true oklopol letters, I think.
01:03:01 <ihope> Ooh, I can okloize my nick.
01:03:07 <psygnisfive> we used to have to rigorously go over the idea of whether or not it could be true to say stuff like
01:03:08 -!- ihope has changed nick to lkoko.
01:04:11 <lkoko> Yours is "kollololloo"!
01:05:21 <lkoko> And k is b-like, not k-like.
01:06:00 <lkoko> It's a bloopy version of oklopol.
01:08:17 <lkoko> Oh, I missed the fact that k and p are both oklopol letters.
01:19:31 -!- TheBlunderbuss has joined.
01:33:27 <lilja> should I write or sleep?
01:33:46 -!- TheBlunderbuss has left (?).
01:34:39 <lilja> but I'm quite sleepy
01:35:12 <psygnisfive> or, go into a hypnogogic state and get really fucked up visions then write them down
01:35:17 <lilja> such a difficult decision
01:37:12 <oklopol> lkoko: i do something with licence numbers
01:37:17 -!- lkoko has changed nick to ihope.
01:37:29 <oklopol> the finnish licence number is of the form CCC-NNN
01:37:44 <ihope> Ooh, hypnogogic states are fun.
01:37:50 <ihope> The C can be a letter or a number?
01:38:37 <oklopol> basically, you determine the order of the letter
01:38:55 <oklopol> and the idea is to get the number to have the digits in the same order
01:39:03 <oklopol> by doing incs and decs to them
01:39:57 <oklopol> so for AGC-645 you'd do something like 645 -> 545 -> 445 -> 455 -> 465
01:40:23 <oklopol> small scores are better than big ones
01:40:58 <oklopol> i do this to every licence number i see, usually, if i see no zeroes for a while, i get a bit frustrated
01:41:50 <oklopol> less complex than yours, sadly
01:42:07 <oklopol> i love discovering weird habits like this and letting them grow into obsessions
01:42:34 <psygnisfive> ihope, edison supposedly induced hypnogogic states :o
01:44:27 <lilja> I have no odd habits
01:44:30 <ihope> oklopol: oh, wonderful. :-)
01:44:36 <ihope> lilja: it's not too late to get one!
01:44:39 <lilja> except perhaps the hand touching thing
01:44:47 <ihope> Pick an abstract thing.
01:45:26 <lilja> tja, that'd be good
01:46:13 <oklopol> i of course have tons of stuff i do without realizing, but this is the only one that actually requires any computation
01:46:21 <oklopol> the rest are mostly visual things
01:46:55 <oklopol> like finding convex covers, moving dots on the ceiling to form a circle and stuff like that
01:46:57 <ihope> Like estimating whether a line through the laptop's plane of symmetry intersects a nearby glass?
01:47:01 <lilja> oklopol: those aren't that weird
01:47:26 <oklopol> lilja: indeed they aren't, as i said, simple visual things
01:47:43 <oklopol> ihope: yeah all kinds of intersections
01:48:00 <oklopol> but those are a bit less interesting than the reorderings, as i often have semi-complex rules for them
01:48:45 <ihope> I was outside one day when I realized that if I lay on the ground and looked around in circles, the sky would appear to be enclosed by the ground, and weirdness would ensue.
01:50:28 <ihope> If I practiced that enough, maybe I'd be able to achieve 360-degree vision in a lucid dream. :-)
01:51:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:51:13 <oklopol> i recall you tried and failed, at some point
01:51:19 <ihope> Yeah, pretty much.
01:51:28 <ihope> I guess I do have one occasionally, though never a very good one.
01:51:50 <ihope> "Whoa, I'm dreaming." And then I end up crashing into a nearby wall and everything goes dark, or something.
01:52:47 <ihope> (Though of course you don't measure spheres in degrees, do you? Let's see, the circumference of a unit circle is 2pi, while the surface area of a unit sphere is... hmm, the derivative of 4/3*pi*r^3 at r = 1, which is 4pi. So I guess a sphere has 720 square degrees.)
01:52:55 <oklopol> nowadays half of my dreams happen on irc
01:53:09 <ihope> (Wait, that's not right, is it?)
01:53:10 <psygnisfive> i need someone to sit for me as i try weird shit like inducing hypnogogic states.
01:53:41 <oklopol> right, i guess i know what that means
01:53:43 <psygnisfive> someone who sits around and makes sure you're safe while you trip.
01:54:01 <ihope> Pff, as if hypnogogic states or lucid dreams were unsafe in any way. :-)
01:54:21 <oklopol> ihope: he just wants me to come.
01:54:32 <ihope> (Unless you have schizophrenia or something, in which case you should seek a professional. A professional who knows about lucid dreaming, of course.)
01:56:56 <oklopol> mental conditions are fun, i wish i had one
01:57:16 * ihope refrains from mentioning that sanity is a mental condition
01:57:28 <ihope> (And fatal familial insomnia.)
01:59:09 <psygnisfive> oklopol, lilja, when is are your birthdays?
02:02:14 <oklopol> perhaps we should celebrate these days with a week long orgy
02:02:27 <oklopol> psygnisfive: what is your age
02:03:24 <ihope> "An orgy (όργιον) was a secret cultic congregation at nighttime in Ancient Greek religion, overseen by an orgiophant." Interesting.
02:04:02 <psygnisfive> orgiophant, a subspecies of the elephant, known for their proclivity towards large sexual gatherings.
02:08:12 <psygnisfive> lilja, you're a crazy sexually liberal finn, whats the perviest thing you'd do
02:13:54 <lilja> oklopol's making waffles!
02:14:38 -!- Corun has joined.
02:14:42 <psygnisfive> and dont give some silly pervy thing like rimming
02:15:00 <psygnisfive> like "oh i love dog cock" or something. something INTERESTING.
02:16:54 <psygnisfive> this is boring. you're not saying anything interesting. :(
02:17:49 <ihope> Glass stir rods are very useful, actually.
02:18:06 <ihope> I don't know what that is.
02:18:52 <ihope> Just one of the many possibilities.
02:19:33 <ihope> What are pervs, exactly?
02:20:21 <psygnisfive> i have a picture that actually highlights all of the things i'd do, off the fetish map from deviant desires
02:20:50 <psygnisfive> but i wanna know the PERVIEST thing you're into
02:21:57 <oklopol> what's boring about rimming?
02:24:02 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yeah thought so, but hadn't read your next two lines yet
02:24:10 <oklopol> not that i'm going to answer still :D
02:24:18 <oklopol> but yeah, everyone does it
02:25:25 <oklopol> i like pretty much everything
02:25:53 <ihope> I might be into one of these things.
02:26:09 <ihope> I'm not familiar with your terminology.
02:26:34 <ihope> Besides, I'm 15, you perverts. :-P
02:26:42 <oklopol> i'm sure ihope cares about the details
02:27:02 <oklopol> ihope: i'm pretty sure i was more perverted than now when i was 15 :P
02:27:24 <ihope> Hmm, none of those, I think.
02:27:33 <psygnisfive> ok well whats your perviest interest, ihope.
02:27:46 <oklopol> psygnisfive: specifically, i will not answer on this channel, if asked with a serious tone
02:28:00 <psygnisfive> so you'll answer if i ask with a humorous tone?
02:28:02 <oklopol> i don't see that as "appropriate" :o
02:28:13 <oklopol> well i've talked about scat here with bsmntbombdood
02:32:20 <oklopol> we had #esoteric-sex a while back
02:32:42 <psygnisfive> then i came and turned #esoteric into that? :p
02:32:47 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
02:32:58 <ihope> Hey, I've only made out with Ashley and Ethan so far? I need to make out with Mission as well.
02:33:15 <ihope> I'm already in love with the three of them, so it should be no trouble.
02:33:23 <ihope> Yes, I know Mission is a weird name. I didn't name her.
02:35:15 <ihope> There's also this guy named Ash that I'd like to love if I can...
02:36:31 <ihope> Does he have The Sims Life Stories too?
02:41:42 <ihope> Well, I guess furry has a stereotype of being fetishy anyway.
02:42:45 <ihope> Now you're going to tell me everything else I say is normal. :-P
02:43:36 <psygnisfive> but since you're a fur. i'd give you a 50% chance of being into zoo
02:45:21 <ihope> Not that, no. I'm the huggy type. :-P
02:47:03 <ihope> The kind who would like hugging.
02:47:56 <psygnisfive> but zoo isnt about the intimacy so i'll assume you're into it. :P
02:48:25 <ihope> I have a pet cat. I do not do anything "special" to her. :-P
02:49:16 <psygnisfive> with plenty of horse-oriented fantasy but for obvious reasons it's hard to do with male horses.
02:50:16 <ihope> I heard about someone who had heard about someone who had supposedly done that.
02:50:31 <ihope> Heard someone who had heard about someone, rather.
02:50:45 <psygnisfive> its dangerous. ive seen it, and its usually messy and silly looking and probably not terribly fun.
02:51:01 <psygnisfive> tho i hear llamas or a related species have 3 foot prehensile cocks.
02:51:09 <ihope> I wouldn't want to do it.
02:51:20 <ihope> Relative to their length, or the size of the animal, or...
02:51:23 <psygnisfive> you'd totally hit that 3 foot prehensile cock wouldnt you
02:51:54 <ihope> You pervert. You're a sicko.
02:52:19 <ihope> I do find it interesting that humans are one of the few animals... oh, I'll leave that for a later discussion.
02:52:48 <psygnisfive> and tusho's a girl, so god knows what would bother him.
02:53:15 <ihope> Just like how English is one of the few (if not the only) languages where the words for meats and the words for the animals they come from are different.
02:53:37 <ihope> Pork from pigs, beef from cows, though chicken does in fact come from chickens.
02:54:19 <psygnisfive> but its just a note that thats why the words are porc and beef
02:54:34 <ihope> Something like pork and beef being from Old French and pigs and cows being Germanic Something.
02:55:27 <psygnisfive> well theres this old trope that the words for the meat came from french because the aristocracy was french and were the only ones who could afford the meat as food
02:55:38 <ihope> Yeah, that's what I heard.
02:55:46 <psygnisfive> and the words for the animals were old english since the people who raised them were OE speakers and never ate the animals because of cost
02:55:59 <ihope> I think I've heard that, too.
02:57:38 <psygnisfive> anyone have any good reads on computation theory?
02:58:27 <ihope> Hmm, this channel has gone from sex back to computation? I'll have to finish my sentence, then.
02:58:47 <ihope> Humans are one of the few animals without an erectile bone, I think it is.
02:58:57 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i have a nice one in finnish.
02:58:59 <ihope> I'm not sure how those things work.
02:59:09 <oklopol> i don't know about one of the few
03:01:42 <ihope> Uh oh. I hope I know something you don't.
03:02:26 <ihope> My name comes from... darker times.
03:02:55 <ihope> My ancestors made me swear an oath that I would never disclose the origin of my name.
03:03:08 <ihope> Oh, and I went and told you. Darn it.
03:04:06 <psygnisfive> his presence has the unfortunate side effect of always coinciding, not by his actions, with great amounts of death and destruction
03:04:14 <ihope> But it is a very ancient name. You know how I go by the name "Ivan Hope CXXVII" where a name-like name is warranted?
03:04:28 <oklopol> ihope: why would you want to know something we don't?
03:04:40 <ihope> I don't want to lose. :-)
03:05:03 <psygnisfive> and yet discovering you dont know something means you win.
03:05:34 <psygnisfive> pikhq: whats your perviest fantasy/fetish/kink
03:05:44 <oklopol> ash is this guy on a tv show
03:05:47 <pikhq> oklopol: Fair 'nough.
03:06:01 <pikhq> psygnisfive: I can't believe I walked into this.
03:06:10 <psygnisfive> i heard an aussie aboriginal named ash dargan play didge once
03:06:14 <oklopol> pokemon joke just in case you didn't.
03:06:54 <psygnisfive> this is #esoteric. everyones either a furry, a zoo, a scathead, or finnish.
03:07:13 <pikhq> None of the above.
03:07:25 <ihope> I read Freefall, by (gasp!) the way; did you know that?
03:07:37 <ihope> Oh, BDSM, that's an interesting case.
03:07:47 <pikhq> Definitely into girls. :p
03:07:48 -!- oerjan has joined.
03:07:55 <pikhq> But that's not a fetish, now is it?
03:08:02 <ihope> I'm sure I'll be into girls one of these days.
03:09:02 <oerjan> i could tell you, but then i would have to kill you
03:09:03 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, *that* is what you just walked in to.
03:09:16 <psygnisfive> im somewhat into gore. and vore. so tell me.
03:09:48 <pikhq> I get off on tentacle pron. There, that suffice?
03:10:28 * oerjan is starting to regret he didn't check the logs _first_
03:10:39 <pikhq> Most people find it about as bad as guro.
03:10:41 <psygnisfive> because if he had, he'd be masturbating right now
03:10:57 <psygnisfive> i figured tentacle rape was one of the lesser fetishes
03:11:19 <psygnisfive> given that its essentially Multiple Massive Prehensile Cocks
03:11:25 <psygnisfive> and really, who DOESNT love multiple massive prehensile cocks
03:12:00 * oklopol imagines tusho yelling COCKS out loud
03:13:06 <ihope> Just an ordinary brain fetish.
03:13:41 <oerjan> in an injective and epic way
03:14:20 <psygnisfive> we should invent new terms for sexualities
03:14:26 <psygnisfive> i submit bijective as a new term for bisexual.
03:15:06 <psygnisfive> bijection is when you cum in a guy and a girl at the same time.
03:15:06 <oklopol> bijection would make no sense for bisexuality
03:15:16 <oerjan> monic clearly implies masturbation
03:15:19 <oklopol> except for the punny stuff
03:15:26 <ihope> oerjan: automorphism.
03:15:32 <ihope> A bijection could be defined as a both-ways injection, no?
03:16:05 <psygnisfive> bijection could alternatively mean oral-anal/vaginal double penetration
03:16:35 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Ya really.
03:16:38 <psygnisfive> i love the enthusiasm with which you guys picked up this topic
03:17:01 <pikhq> (BTW, guro? *shudder*)
03:17:20 <psygnisfive> ::stabs pikhq in the side then fucks the hole::
03:17:26 <ihope> Hmm, I suddenly realize I don't actually know what "injective" means.
03:17:49 <ihope> psygnisfive: oh, I saw that in a playground once.
03:17:52 * pikhq grows several prehensile cocks, heads off to another channel to search for girls
03:18:12 <pikhq> Hmm. Perhaps I should put on my robe and wizard hat?
03:18:27 <ihope> To be specific, I saw "i want to slit your throat and fuck the wound" carved into a woody thing.
03:18:35 <ihope> That was back when I thought the word meant "infect". It made sense.
03:18:55 * oerjan notes that somewhere on the internet there are people who _do_ have a robe and wizard hat fetish (rule thirty-something)
03:19:25 <oklopol> ...i wanna push my face in and feel the swoon, wanna dig inside, find a little bit of me, coz something something if you don't come clean
03:19:34 <oklopol> where wormwood meets my pesticide
03:19:41 <oerjan> oklopol, now even ruining people's sweet childhood memories
03:19:42 <oklopol> you can never die, coz you were never alive
03:20:05 <oklopol> i don't generally like it, but i like slipknot
03:20:09 <oerjan> also, ruining my stomach
03:20:12 <oklopol> it's not really a good example of the genre
03:22:32 <oklopol> i simply like the voice of the singer, and they do have nice riffs, although admittedly don't know how to vary them
03:22:58 <psygnisfive> numetal lyrics are also mindnumblingly stupid
03:26:05 <ihope> Wow, how convenient. My Sim has the Romance aspiration. He got the high-level want "Make Out with Three Sims", so I called over a third Sim and had him make out with her. Then the high-level wants "WooHoo in Bed" and "WooHoo in Hot Tub" appeared, so I had them WooHoo in a hot tub and now they're headed for bed.
03:26:42 <ihope> He also has the "Public WooHoo" want, so there's yet another thing I can try.
03:27:21 <ihope> The Sims Life Stories.
03:27:39 * oerjan now just needs to know what WooHoo means. or maybe not.
03:28:54 <ihope> And he also has the "WooHoo with 5 Different Sims" want; I'll work toward that one.
03:29:52 <ihope> Aww, and I'm just about to ask her to stay the night or something when she says it's time to go home.
03:30:41 <oklopol> just press "woohoo hand" and you get the same amount of happy points
03:33:32 <ihope> Oh, now I remember why killing your Sims is advantageous.
03:33:41 <ihope> It makes their paintings more valuable.
03:34:39 <pikhq> Now I wish The Sims would work under WINE.
03:34:47 <ihope> Have too many Sims? Don't bother with moving them out; just have one stand outside until a satellite falls on them.
03:34:52 <pikhq> (or that I had The Sims 2 (that works in WINE, right?))
03:35:04 <ihope> Or let them get devoured by flies.
03:37:35 <ihope> Public WooHoo happens inside a Clothing Booth, so let's see where there's one of those...
03:37:53 <psygnisfive> im gonna have a roommate this fall who's into public sex
03:40:58 <pikhq> Hmm. I should probably talk to my roommate this fall. . .
03:41:24 <pikhq> And mutter about how my college decided to ask for roommate requests, only to completely ignore them.
03:41:48 <oklopol> is he a total doodoo head?
03:47:10 <pikhq> Dunno; not talked to him.
03:47:21 <pikhq> The guy I *asked* for is totally awesome.
03:47:32 <pikhq> (and tends to lurk in #esoteric)
03:49:08 <oerjan> but, but, i am not going into college...
03:49:37 <ihope> I'm not going to refer to him by any other name from now on. :-P
03:52:40 <pikhq> ihope: No, Cherez.
03:53:02 <pikhq> He's en route from LA to Kansas City ATM, so he's not on. ;)
03:53:21 <ihope> I have a feeling my referring to Seth by his name has been retaliated against.
03:53:32 <pikhq> oerjan: Also, you and I are in completely different continents.
03:53:52 <ihope> Some would say that the preposition does not belong at the end of that sentence. I wonder how they would rephrase that.
03:53:56 <oerjan> pikhq: hey that was what i was going to say :D
03:54:15 <ihope> Something like "I have a feeling my referring against to Seth by his name has been retaliated.", I suppose.
03:55:04 <oerjan> i thought the point was to get the preposition in front of its complement [?]
03:55:40 <pikhq> I say that English doesn't have a formal grammer, so feel free: prepositions are something sentences may be ended with.
03:55:57 <oerjan> as in other germanic languages
03:56:29 <oerjan> in norwegian trying to get the preposition _not_ last would require using archaic pronouns
03:57:14 <psygnisfive> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/1.gif
03:57:30 <psygnisfive> that double cheese burger is totally fuckable.
04:04:23 <pikhq> ... Do they know WTF they're talking about?
04:05:16 <psygnisfive> let me read it over and see why you're probably wrong
04:06:04 <psygnisfive> people who say that you shouldnt end a sentence with a preposition are idiots who dont understand why you very well can do that.
04:08:35 <pikhq> I say, if Shakespeare could do it, then I can.
04:09:07 <pikhq> (my English gets a bit odd when I'm in the mood to wax Shakespearean. ;))
04:09:38 <psygnisfive> shakespearean english is artificial poetic prose, you know. during his time noone spoke like that.
04:10:21 <pikhq> Some lines were written how the commoner would speak.
04:10:32 <pikhq> (typically the lower-class folk within his plays)
04:10:45 <pikhq> However, I *don't care*.
04:11:01 <pikhq> I also wax poetic at times. ;)
04:11:16 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Never read him beyond what you had to do for class?
04:11:39 <pikhq> Shakespeare as taught in school sucks balls.
04:12:03 <pikhq> Shakespeare enjoyed on one's own time is actually worthwhile.
04:12:05 <oerjan> Three quarks for muster Mark
04:12:15 * ihope eats psygnisfive's apostrophe
04:12:36 <psygnisfive> i think it should be something related to like
04:13:03 <ihope> I guess the deprepositioning of that sentence way up there would be something like "I have a feeling it has been retaliated against my referring to Seth by his name".
04:13:06 <psygnisfive> i think i associate it with that because of some story
04:13:18 <ihope> Wait, that doesn't work, either.
04:14:04 <psygnisfive> you're trying to un-strand the preposition in "I have a feeling my referring to Seth by his name has been retaliated against."?
04:14:23 <pikhq> ihope: That sounds ridiculously pretentious.
04:14:50 <psygnisfive> I have a feeling someone's retaliated against my referring to Seth by his name.
04:14:53 <pikhq> This coming from a guy who has been accused of being 'as pedantic as the Comic Book Guy'.
04:14:55 <ihope> pikhq: it's also weird and doesn't actually do anything.
04:15:19 <ihope> psygnisfive: but that introduces a "someone". You're not allowed to do that. :-)
04:15:35 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Also, that ad?
04:15:47 <psygnisfive> the active form would require an explicit agent
04:15:49 <pikhq> That's almost as stupid as "Head On".
04:16:15 <ihope> Also, my mom is a fan of sentences such as "I have an alarm clock that I know when it will go off", sticking an entire sentence inside that type of "that" phrase.
04:16:23 <psygnisfive> you cant exactly passivize "X retaliated against Y" without stranding the preposition because Y isnt a direct object
04:16:38 <psygnisfive> and since your version IS passive and thus thats the source of the stranding
04:16:47 <psygnisfive> to remove the stranding, you have to make it active.
04:17:18 <psygnisfive> but the reason you give is not the reason its odd. :)
04:17:26 <ihope> I guess you could fix it by saying "I have an alarm clock that has me know when it will go off".
04:17:58 <ihope> Isn't sticking a whole sentence in into a "that"... wrongful?
04:18:08 <psygnisfive> I think that you dont know what you're talking about.
04:18:25 <psygnisfive> But it's still true that your mom knows when the alarm clock will go off.
04:18:36 <ihope> I've never heard anyone but my mom say such a thing.
04:18:40 <psygnisfive> and i think that she's well aware of the intriguing nature of her sentences.
04:18:49 <psygnisfive> ihope, i guarantee that you've said such things yourself.
04:18:59 <ihope> Indeed, on some occasions.
04:19:11 <psygnisfive> the sentence she used however is still peculiar
04:19:23 <ihope> Why is it peculiar?
04:19:41 <ihope> That's what I said.
04:20:04 <psygnisfive> you said it was because of the whole sentence.
04:20:05 <pikhq> ihope: I use it quite commonly.
04:20:09 <ihope> In something like "I have an alarm clock that has been painted pink", the thing inside "that" is "has been painted pink", which is not a full sentence.
04:20:31 <ihope> In "I have an alarm clock that I know when it will go off", the thing inside "that" is "I know when it will go off", which is.
04:21:00 <pikhq> "I have an alarm clock that I painted pink." -- fairly simple example. . .
04:21:12 <pikhq> And that form is ridiculously common in English.
04:21:18 <psygnisfive> its NOT acceptable when one of the arguments to the verb of the relative clause is the head of the noun phrase that the relative clause modifies.
04:21:44 <pikhq> (It's also fairly natural in Esperanto, FWIW)
04:21:57 <psygnisfive> you cant use a pronoun to refer back to the noun that the enclosing clause modifies.
04:22:23 <psygnisfive> [NP ... N{i} ... [C ... it{i} ...]] is invalid
04:22:23 <ihope> pikhq: I'd interpret "I painted pink" there as part of a sentence such as "it I painted pink", an odd way of saying "I painted it pink".
04:22:45 <ihope> "I painted pink" is syntactically normal, semantically weird.
04:22:52 <psygnisfive> where N{i} and it{i} are coindexed to indicate coreferentiality.
04:23:10 <psygnisfive> actually its not syntactically normal either
04:23:43 <psygnisfive> its only syntactically normal if one of those arguments has a null phonological (and thus typographical) form
04:23:57 <psygnisfive> well, it doesnt if you're using a different verb paint
04:24:13 <ihope> Hmm, so "I paint pikhq" is "I paint pikhq <null>"?
04:24:52 <pikhq> Your assertion that paint is binary.
04:25:01 <ihope> You said it's only syntaxtically normal if one of those arguments has a null phonological and thus typographical form.
04:25:07 <pikhq> Care to reformat that into sexp?
04:25:26 <psygnisfive> "pink" in the original sentence is not an argument to the verb.
04:25:46 <psygnisfive> well, it could be, depending on your interpretation, but that would make the verb ditransitive.
04:25:48 <pikhq> It's an adjective.
04:25:59 <ihope> In "I have an alarm clock that I painted pink.", "pink" is not an argument to "painted"?
04:26:03 <psygnisfive> if anything, "pink" is an adverbial modifier indicating the result of the painting.
04:26:19 <psygnisfive> tho it could alternatively be an argument to a ditransitive
04:26:21 <pikhq> Let's try to make a parse tree out of this mess.
04:26:24 <ihope> "I have a paint color that I painted pikhq".
04:26:34 <psygnisfive> which framework do you want the parse trees in
04:26:46 <psygnisfive> I can give you Principles and Parameters, as well as Minimalism
04:27:38 <ihope> "I have an alarm clock that I painted pink." That's "have" modified with "I" and "an alarm clock that I painted pink", which is "an alarm clock" modified with "that I painted pink", which is "that" containing "I painted pink", which is "painted" modified with "I" and "pink"?
04:27:53 <ihope> (And "an alarm clock" is "an" containing "clock" modified with "alarm".)
04:28:02 <pikhq> I don't care, just stick it in a binary tree. :p
04:28:25 <ihope> psygnisfive: specified?
04:28:41 <psygnisfive> I is in a specifier relationship with have
04:28:45 <pikhq> Hmm. Is psygnisfive a linguistics major or some such? :p
04:28:56 <psygnisfive> tho the other uses of modified are wrong as well.
04:29:07 <pikhq> Whereas the rest of us are mere dabblers (at best).
04:29:14 <ihope> Should they be "specified" as well?
04:30:14 <psygnisfive> thats the phenomena this sentence exhibits, btw, that makes "I painted it pink" an invalid relative clause ;)
04:32:03 * pikhq has fun with his unrestricted grammar.
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04:33:01 * oerjan even unrestricted fun more a with _totally_ has grammar
04:34:10 <pikhq> oerjan: I meant 'unrestricted' in the sense that it can only be parsed using a Turing machine, not in the sense of having no rules.
04:34:38 <pikhq> Though actually, I'm not sure: does English have a type 0 grammar?
04:34:39 <oerjan> but you are not a Turing machine. how can you parse it then? :D
04:35:09 <pikhq> I do a good impression thereof.
04:35:24 <psygnisfive> [CP [C' [TP [DP [D' [NP [N' [N 'I']]]]] [T' [T <pres>] [VP <I> [V' [V 'have'+pres] [DP{i} [D' [D 'an'] [NP [N' [N 'alarm clock'] [CP [C' [C 'that'] [TP [DP [D' [NP [N' [N 'I']]]]] [T' [T <-ed>] [VP <I> [V' [V' [V 'paint'+'-ed'] PRO{i}] [AdvP [Adv' [Adv [Adj 'pink']]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
04:35:45 <oerjan> while psygnisfive just seemed to fail the Turing Test :D
04:36:10 <pikhq> No, I think I get what he's doing there. . .
04:36:31 <pikhq> Basically, he's demonstrated knowledge of the formal grammar of English.
04:37:12 <pikhq> I'm surprised that you actaully did it, that's all. :p
04:37:33 <psygnisfive> you should see what hoops we jumped through in syntax
04:38:15 <pikhq> I'm afraid my knowledge of grammars & syntax is a bit more rudimentary than yours.
04:38:27 <psygnisfive> "John was made to believe that Fido seemed to be jumping through hoops" was a common enough structure
04:38:33 <pikhq> We in the computer science field tend to make our grammars easy to parse.
04:39:02 <pikhq> I don't think I've seen a programming language with grammar harder to parse than type 1.
04:39:23 <pikhq> And yes, oerjan: most programming languages are type 2.
04:39:29 <psygnisfive> tho i suspect its only Type 0 thanks to post-linearization techniques. maybe.
04:42:46 <oerjan> Now that was certainly minimalist
04:44:07 <psygnisfive> [CP [TP [DP [NP 'I']] [T' [T pres] [VP <I> [V 'have'] [DP [D 'an'] [NP [N 'alarm clock'] [CP [C 'that'] [TP [T pst] [DP [NP 'I']] [VP <I> [V' [V' [V 'painted'] PRO{i}] [AdvP [Adj 'pink']]]]]]]]]]]]
04:44:59 <psygnisfive> left out is the null complement in the highest CP
04:45:35 <pikhq> And I thought I'd never see something geekier than drawing out a parse tree for some Def-BF code by hand. :p
04:45:41 <psygnisfive> tho given the relative clarity of what each segment is, the minimalist tree would often just be
04:48:20 <psygnisfive> [CP [TP [DP I] [T' pres [VP <I> [V' have [DP an [NP alarm_clock [CP that [TP I [pst [VP <I> [V' [painted PRO{i}] pink]]]]]]]]]]]
04:48:30 <psygnisfive> thats closer i think to a normal minimalist markup
04:48:38 <psygnisfive> tho we'd just use trees that make it clearer
04:49:52 <psygnisfive> pikhq: if you want to see the HEIGHT of fucking geekery
04:50:00 <psygnisfive> you should come and sit in on one of my ling classes
04:50:30 <psygnisfive> ive made nerdy linguistics tee-shirts that only nerdy linguists like me and my friends would get
04:50:47 <psygnisfive> speaking of which, i need to work on some designs for them :O
04:52:51 <psygnisfive> btw, Naive Syntax parse: [S [NP [N 'I']] [VP [V 'have'] [NP [D 'an'] [N 'alarm clock'] [CP [C 'that'] [S [NP [N 'I']] [VP [V 'painted'] <it> [AdvP [Adj 'pink']]]]]]]]
04:53:17 <psygnisfive> which you'll notice is NOT binary branching
04:53:35 <pikhq> psygnisfive: You want the height of geekery?
04:53:45 <pikhq> Keep in mind that I have yet to entire college.
04:54:36 <oerjan> don't _do_ that to linguistics majors. they might lock up.
04:55:01 <pikhq> oerjan: Don't do what?
04:55:24 <pikhq> It's nearly midnight here; forgive me.
04:55:40 <psygnisfive> oerjan, much to your chagrin, i'm sure, most linguists are not prescriptivists, nor pedants about spelling
04:55:54 <pikhq> Most programmers are, however.
04:56:30 <pikhq> I was imagining you beating people with flying rodents, actually.
04:56:38 <pikhq> Much more amusing thought.
04:56:49 <oerjan> you _are_ however pedantic about people making fun of you, i see :D
04:56:54 <psygnisfive> i use this: http://members.wri.com/jeffb/transformers/NightscreamBat.jpg
04:57:32 <psygnisfive> i do that merely because its a common misconception that linguists are school marm grammarians
04:57:57 <psygnisfive> which is about as reasonable as saying that haskellians are fans of GOTO.
04:58:21 <pikhq> I actually think of linguists in a bit of a more positive light.
04:58:37 <pikhq> Probably because, if I weren't doing math/computer science, I'd probably be a linguistics major.
04:58:50 <oerjan> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=marm
04:59:00 <pikhq> I'm already doing a dual major.
04:59:10 <pikhq> I'm not *that* insane.
04:59:20 <pikhq> (some would debate that)
04:59:24 <psygnisfive> im probably going to do CS+Ling when i get to grad school
04:59:44 <pikhq> You've seen my code.
04:59:56 <psygnisfive> Math, CS, and Linguistics are, in the theoretical realms of each, identical in many ways.
05:00:20 <pikhq> CS and linguistics' overlaps are fairly obvious.
05:00:30 <psygnisfive> i mean, in theory of computation, whats the most common way of ranking computation power?
05:00:39 <pikhq> Especially automata theory & grammar theory. . .
05:01:15 <psygnisfive> anarchosyndicalist, in case you were wondering.
05:01:49 <psygnisfive> theres this website that does this thing where you put in your major and click through various scenarios of The Future
05:02:08 <pikhq> Fuck that: cryptoanarchy if you must be without rule. :p
05:02:10 <psygnisfive> one of them talks about going into CompLing
05:02:27 <psygnisfive> and how any computational linguist can whoop your ass when it comes to both language AND computer science
05:02:43 <psygnisfive> so you're an anarchist but you pretend to be a republican?
05:03:16 <pikhq> Cryptoanarchy refers to the usage of cryptography to create an unruled network.
05:03:53 <pikhq> It's meant as a pun.
05:04:02 <pikhq> Feel free to groan.
05:04:25 <psygnisfive> all of my linguistics tee-shirts are puns. :)
05:05:29 <lilja> I'm going to sleep
05:05:41 <lilja> it's already bright outside :\
05:06:00 <psygnisfive> when i was in europe it was staying light until 10pm
05:06:01 <oerjan> i'm a frayed that pun was a bit of a stretch to me...
05:06:44 <psygnisfive> im also going to make a shirt with 7 thumb tacks painted on it, large-like
05:07:00 <psygnisfive> each with the name of a different one of the seven deadly sins on it
05:07:00 <lilja> anyways, good night or something
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05:07:54 <psygnisfive> everyone ive told that to has had to think about it, and still didnt get it
05:08:02 <psygnisfive> except this one girl, whos my best friend at school
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09:42:43 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ItsQuietTooQuiet
09:43:08 <oerjan> (standard tvtropes warnings apply)
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13:22:00 <oklofok> 06:21… psygnisfive: you cant use a pronoun to refer back to the noun that the enclosing clause modifies. <<< what? you can't say "i like sheep that take care of themselves"?
13:22:27 <tusho> no, that's illegal to say
13:22:31 <tusho> we'll arrest you if you do
13:22:49 <oklofok> i'm pretty sure the weirdness in ihope's sentence was just that you should have a sentence without a subject as the thing after "that", and the thing "that" refers to will then be the subject.
13:23:03 <oklofok> and here, "I" was the subject
13:38:15 <oklofok> in lalna i combined focus and that kind of referring so that you'd do (i like (sheep take care of themselves)), and for the inner sentence put focus on sheep
13:39:08 <oklofok> this is the same thing you often see in oklotalk (although of course just because objects normally behave like that, you couldn't extract "care" from that sentence in oklotalk)
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17:56:00 <deveah> i see most esoteric ppl are interested in roguelikes too
18:01:37 <AnMaster> deveah, and why do you see that I wonder?
18:02:31 <deveah> zzo38, for example, made a roguelike
18:02:47 <tusho> yeah but that's zzo
18:02:50 <tusho> he does everything
18:03:00 <deveah> I made and am making roguelikes and I'm an esoterikker too
18:04:24 <deveah> tusho, when I was your age, I did almost everything too :D
18:04:36 <tusho> i dunno how old he is
18:05:21 <deveah> try a bit of everything before you're too old to do anything :)
18:07:01 <deveah> omg you can really use more than two letters in one line!
18:07:45 <AnMaster> hm... you wouldn't believe this, but it is true, I just met a blind user who enjoyed flightsimulators today....
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18:09:25 <tusho> deveah: shut up, okoing is sacred
18:09:55 <tusho> just add a k to the beginning
18:11:04 <lilja> utututututututututu
18:12:00 <tusho> deveah: you cannot be told what okoing is
18:12:03 <tusho> you must experience it yourself
18:12:10 <tusho> and oklopol is not here for a demonstration
18:12:21 <tusho> you will gain enlightenment one day, of that I am sure
18:14:48 <AnMaster> odd I have seen oklopol quite a few times and I never seen okoing before
18:15:38 <deveah> no, I've been here before a few times
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18:36:18 <psygnisfive> i oversimplified it when i said that yesterday
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18:38:25 <psygnisfive> but in this specific example, the reason you can't actually use "it" is because it's the wrong pronoun
18:38:47 <psygnisfive> the RIGHT pronoun is PRO which has no spoken form.
18:39:46 <psygnisfive> or atleast thats the P&P/Minimalist interpretation :D
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19:18:28 <pikhq> *, I'm sorry about the delay on Def-BF. . .
19:18:44 <pikhq> As my excuse, I offer this: Half-Life 2 kicks some major ass.
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19:33:42 <tusho> AnMaster: Very valid.
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19:34:28 <tusho> AnMaster: So it's not OK to enjoy a game a lot and therefore play it instead of working on an esolang for a bit?
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19:35:08 <tusho> what did you say then?
19:35:32 <tusho> and your intended meaning?
19:35:37 <tusho> I can't extract another one
19:35:53 <AnMaster> well that is a different question that I will be happy to answer
19:36:18 <AnMaster> I meaning was that "half life 2"
19:36:25 <AnMaster> due to not being open source ;P
19:36:36 <tusho> yes, I'm aware you're an unreasonable zealot
19:36:40 <tusho> you didn't have to point that out again
19:36:48 <tusho> you demonstrate it daily..
19:37:17 <AnMaster> + another reason was pure selfishness
19:37:26 <oklopol> i'm less afraid of open source nowadays
19:37:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, where are the the specs on Def-BF?
19:37:36 <AnMaster> if you make no progress I may implement it myself
19:38:00 <pikhq> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215028173.html
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19:38:41 <AnMaster> % jump to absolute address in code
19:38:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, does 0 equal first code cell?
19:39:14 <AnMaster> so the program is loaded starting at 0x0?
19:39:39 <AnMaster> and what parameter does % take?
19:40:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, that spec doesn't define some quite important stuff needed to make an implementation
19:40:31 <tusho> AnMaster: Because, guess what, they were implementing it -themselves-
19:40:44 <AnMaster> like: where does the constant ? wants appear from
19:40:54 <tusho> I don't think they were thinking "WHAT IF PIKHQ IS PLAYING HALF LIFE 2. WE'D BETTER LET OTHER PEOPLE IMPLEMENT IT"
19:41:11 <AnMaster> this is a reasonable explanation
19:41:23 <AnMaster> but shouldn't ESO have pointed out this issue?
19:42:06 <oklopol> it's been an active topic on #eso for the past few days
19:42:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, ok I can see one big issue
19:42:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, the pointers are 8 bit?
19:42:39 <oklopol> always with the exact sizess :)
19:43:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, well how large are the pointers, and how large are the cells?
19:43:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, so could be 64-bit or 32-bit or such? do you have some standard library to define bitwise operations and so on?
19:44:04 <AnMaster> a standard library would be great
19:44:14 <pikhq> A standard library is implicit. . .
19:44:18 <AnMaster> because a compiler could optimize those into C function implemented in the compiler
19:44:29 <pikhq> Also, note that functions are pass by reference.
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19:44:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, interesting, I may code a compiler to C code, could be fun
19:45:09 <AnMaster> not today, got to leave soon, but maybe the next few days
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19:47:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, where is the standard library specs?
19:47:36 <AnMaster> and where are you working on def-bf, who is on the standard committee
19:48:14 <AnMaster> where should I apply for a membership?
19:48:44 <AnMaster> well I will ask ais when I see him next then
19:48:50 <tusho> actually i'm in charge
19:48:55 <tusho> ais just has sudoers :P
19:51:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, how can a def-bf program find out stuff about the system, say how much memory exists?
19:51:56 <AnMaster> and what should happen when it runs out of memory?
19:52:36 <AnMaster> what should an implementation do once it can't allocate more memory for the program, or on a division by zero and so on
19:54:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, how are pointers to ? and such encoded? as hexdecimal? with a leading 0x?
19:54:20 <AnMaster> there are lots of holes in that standard I'm afraid to say :(
19:54:40 <tusho> AnMaster: esolangs aren't known for their completeness
19:55:12 <AnMaster> tusho, funge being an exception (yes 98 had weaknesses but far from as much)
19:55:27 <tusho> funge-93 is pretty incomplete.
19:55:37 <tusho> it's not surprising
19:55:40 <tusho> because it doesn't really matter.
19:56:03 <AnMaster> so it is surprising that the 98 one is as complete as it is?
19:56:17 <tusho> funge-98 is just an anti-tarpit
20:04:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, are # and ; for the data or instruction pointers?
20:05:04 <AnMaster> in fact I just got an idea, I could easily implement the tire 1 (basic commands) in bash
20:05:51 <AnMaster> but you remember my brainfuck interpreter in bash? :P
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20:13:56 <pikhq> Which means questions such as "what should it do when it can't malloc any more" are fruitless: that is OS defined. . .
20:13:56 <pikhq> And possibly defined from within Def-BF.
20:19:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, but assume you make a version that compiles to C code
20:19:22 <AnMaster> that should run under a hosted environment
20:20:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, for a system programming language , and . make no sense
20:21:07 <AnMaster> def-bf itself would define stdio
20:21:18 <pikhq> I'm assuming that they would call out to a couple of stubs.
20:21:23 <pikhq> BTW, this is not my spec. ;)
20:21:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, how do you plan to implement it then if you don't know?
20:22:16 <AnMaster> <pikhq> I'm assuming that they would call out to a couple of stubs.
20:22:27 <AnMaster> "assuming" implies "not knowing for sure"
20:22:28 <pikhq> That's an implementation-defined detail. ;)
20:22:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about format for pointers?
20:24:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, also how can you make sure you don't collide with wherever the the stacks and variables are stored?
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20:37:19 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> pikhq, also how can you make sure you don't collide with wherever the the stacks and variables are stored?
20:37:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, I never got an answer before you timed out
20:37:36 <pikhq> Because I never saw that. ;)
20:37:54 <AnMaster> for the <AnMaster> pikhq, what about format for pointers?
20:38:02 <AnMaster> didn't saw an answer to that either
20:38:12 <pikhq> First, read up on assembly. ;)
20:38:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, well this is about Def-BF
20:38:29 <AnMaster> I need to know what format it is stored in
20:38:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, and yes I know AT&T syntax quite well
20:38:51 <pikhq> ('how can you make sure you don't collide with whereever the stack and variables are stored?' Careful coding.)
20:39:08 <pikhq> As for the format for arguments to ? ? Ask Rodger.
20:39:08 <AnMaster> so the implementation got to define where it will put variables in other words
20:39:26 <AnMaster> and I got to sleep in about an hour
20:39:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, you will need to ask as well
20:39:42 <AnMaster> once you get around to implementing
20:39:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, I plan to do this as two tires
20:40:13 <AnMaster> that can be reused by different implementations
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20:40:28 <AnMaster> it will just take the "High-level programming:" and turn it into "Basic commands:"
20:40:46 <AnMaster> I guess you could reuse that as well, but I will implement tire 1 first
20:40:56 <pikhq> Which is great and all, except that the high-level programming is a bit easier to futz with in some cases. :p
20:41:19 <AnMaster> you mean you don't separate the layers?
20:41:27 <tusho> OMG!!! HE DOESN"T SEPERATE THE LAYERS!
20:41:28 <pikhq> To implement that preprocessor, you would need to write your own linker.
20:41:50 <pikhq> Believe me when I say you don't want to write your own linker.
20:42:14 <pikhq> Especially if you want Def-BF on more than one OS.
20:42:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, in my implementation this will compile into a virtual machine more or less
20:42:29 <AnMaster> because the specs doesn't say anything about other stuff
20:42:56 <oklopol> i don't believe in assembly
20:42:59 <AnMaster> but it will assume there is nothing else outside the Def-BF code
20:43:05 <oklopol> has anyone even ever seen it, really? no.
20:43:19 <pikhq> My idea involves compiling to x86 assembly already in protected mode with the A20 line set up right. . .
20:43:20 <oklopol> you don't wanna thank me for this.
20:43:24 <tusho> You call that fuzzy vision assembly?
20:43:34 <tusho> You have no proof.
20:43:44 <tusho> However, pure logic leads us to the conclusion that THERE IS NO ASSEMBLY.
20:43:48 <pikhq> And for anything else that the Def-BF code needs to do for an OS? Well, that's why we have assembly.
20:43:51 <tusho> Belief in assembly counts as a _DELUSION_.
20:43:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, intel syntax is horrible
20:44:03 <oklopol> anyway, assembly is more like those quantum physics. they might seem to explain the phenomena, but no, something that weird simply can't be the truth
20:44:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: Intel CPUs are terrible.
20:44:21 <tusho> oklopol: actually I think assembly is more like god
20:44:25 <tusho> not in that it's awesome
20:44:33 <tusho> assembly just does not exist.
20:44:44 <pikhq> AMD's a good implementation of a crap architecture. :p
20:44:45 <tusho> AnMaster: Grammar correction - 'I have an AMD.'
20:45:00 <tusho> Ironically, I made an error there.
20:45:05 <tusho> Should have been 'grammatical correction'.
20:45:11 <tusho> AnMaster: Only in LOLCODE.
20:45:29 <AnMaster> or if you are a cat, but right then it's LOLCODE anyway
20:45:30 <oklopol> "i got amd" is valid practical english
20:45:43 <tusho> oklopol: no. not really.
20:46:17 <tusho> uncomfortable to read.
20:46:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway I don't see why you can't separate the tires?
20:46:59 <AnMaster> btw you will find this horrible tusho
20:47:02 <pikhq> Because I don't want my own implementation of ld for each and every CPU this will run on. . . Or each and every OS, for that matter.
20:47:07 <oklopol> tusho: well sure, sure, but i think that's more the kind of error native ppl make
20:47:31 <tusho> AnMaster: That's how my Underload compiler worked...
20:47:40 <AnMaster> for a compiler it is ok I guess
20:47:43 <tusho> *You're* the one paranoid about C being all nice and clean.
20:47:59 <AnMaster> for loops I will try to output while loops or so
20:48:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: Compiling to C in this case is no easier than compiling to assembly, though.
20:48:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes it is for me, since my asm is rusty
20:48:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, and two implementations can't be worse than one
20:49:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, where are the specs for the standard library btw?
20:50:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, does the high level code have strings?
20:50:44 <AnMaster> the standard doesn't say anything about it
20:50:49 <pikhq> There is none specified yet.
20:50:52 <AnMaster> and I guess I can assume the standard is complete
20:51:06 <oklopol> du bist für den glendern gestrongen
20:51:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, well I guess the lower level part of it is complete?
20:54:45 <AnMaster> and for location of stacks and direction of growing, I'll make that command line arguments
20:54:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh and my C implementation will be 64-bit clean ;P
20:57:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, want to see my quick notes for implementation?
20:57:30 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/HCfcDL41.html
20:57:51 <pikhq> But my assembly implementation will be suitable for OS development.
20:58:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, but the standard says nothing about that
21:08:05 <tusho> AnMaster: Def-BF is intended for kernel development.
21:08:34 <AnMaster> tusho, nothing in the standard saying so :P
21:08:47 <tusho> I guess you haven't been following Def-BF then.
21:08:52 <tusho> The only thing that makes it interesting is kernel devleopment.
21:09:05 <AnMaster> but I take the standard as the ultimate reference
21:09:21 <AnMaster> tusho, btw I need some advice, I'm thinking about buying a laptop, what hardware would you go for?
21:09:32 <AnMaster> think high end, flight simulator
21:09:57 <tusho> AnMaster: MacBooks are pretty cheap, but yeah, I don't think they have good 3D.
21:09:59 <tusho> How about ThinkPads?
21:10:04 <tusho> I've heard good things about them.
21:10:10 <AnMaster> tusho, I got no idea, I never bought a laptop before
21:10:12 <tusho> (I actually said Apple to infuriate you :p)
21:10:18 <tusho> AnMaster: Well ThinkPads can come with linux, iirc
21:10:32 <tusho> AnMaster: What I mean is that they're linux friendly.
21:10:43 <tusho> I saw a good wiki about them once
21:10:49 <tusho> AnMaster: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkWiki
21:10:57 <tusho> has loads of details on all the models - maybe something good
21:12:29 <AnMaster> needs wifi with WPA2 (AES), ability to run flightgear, a CD drive, a decent screen, a large harddrive, not to expensive and not too heavy...
21:12:52 <tusho> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkWiki
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21:19:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, where will your implementation store the stacks?
21:19:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, somewhere in the memory I assume?
21:21:29 <pikhq> The stack segment.
21:21:46 <tusho> <AnMaster> segment...
21:21:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, that is something not specified by the standard againt
21:22:01 <pikhq> No, of course not.
21:22:04 <tusho> AnMaster: Dude, it's IMPLEMENTATION-DEFINED.
21:22:09 <tusho> Plus, that would make it non-portable.
21:22:11 <tusho> I thought you hated that?
21:22:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, but doesn't x86 share a stack for calling and for data?
21:22:22 <AnMaster> and data pointer stack would be separate
21:22:28 <AnMaster> "%/: and #/; both operate on their own stacks"
21:22:59 <AnMaster> so it doesn't answer my question
21:22:59 <pikhq> There's also ds:0.
21:23:31 <AnMaster> anyway is this segment as in "segments vs. paging"?
21:23:32 <pikhq> I'm afraid my compiler won't work well in a flat memory space. ;)
21:23:43 <AnMaster> I plan to implement a flat memory space you see
21:23:58 <AnMaster> because that is what everyone does these days
21:24:09 <AnMaster> does any "real" OS use segmentation?
21:24:41 <pikhq> Actually, I think OpenBSD uses it to emulate the NX bit.
21:25:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, but it doesn't use it if system got PAE I bet?
21:25:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, however I would like to see your compiler working in a flat memory model
21:25:54 <pikhq> Not all PAE processors support NX.
21:26:22 <pikhq> For example: everything newer than a Pentium and older than an Athlon 64.
21:28:29 <tusho> AnMaster: my CPU *has* NX
21:28:45 <tusho> AnMaster: Grammatical fix.
21:28:57 <tusho> I don't think I've seen AnMaster use 'got' correctly yet, actually, so he could just replace 'got' with 'has' all the time :-P
21:28:59 <AnMaster> tusho, it is how it is said in Swedish
21:29:05 <tusho> AnMaster: i guessed
21:29:46 <tusho> AnMaster: in which context
21:29:56 <AnMaster> tusho, that "it is is how it is said in Swedish"
21:30:30 <oklopol> what is all this low level weirdness on my #esoteric
21:31:37 <oklopol> AnMaster: be careful when answering me, i'm rarely as clueless as i seem to be :D
21:32:01 <oklopol> i'm usually just making an obscure statement for no reason whatsoever.
21:32:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway my implementation will follow the standard as defined currently
21:32:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, apart from further information on format of ? operand
21:32:41 * oklopol implements def-bf in python
21:32:51 <tusho> AnMaster: I don't really think he cares much about your implementation; he seems to be interested in it for the kernel development
21:32:59 <oklopol> i won't :P i have enough projects already :D
21:33:01 <tusho> which is the only interesting aspect, I find
21:33:21 <AnMaster> however the linux kernel is in C
21:33:49 <AnMaster> actually I can see how to keep the layers apart and support functions in the lower layer
21:33:54 <AnMaster> so you can get a lot of C functions
21:34:06 <tusho> AnMaster: The linux kernel has hefty asm.
21:34:23 <tusho> Not the most important parts.
21:34:34 <AnMaster> only the arch specific stuff includes asm really
21:35:06 <AnMaster> tusho, because the linux kernel is portable
21:35:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, an idea: separate the target specific code from the generic code
21:36:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, to make it easy to generate, say x86_64 code or ppc code
21:36:34 <pikhq> Well, yes; that's just fairly standard frontend/backend stuff.
21:36:44 <AnMaster> just make sure to do it that way
21:36:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, you could even make a C backend I guess
21:37:10 <pikhq> Trivially, rather.
21:37:14 <AnMaster> that could be run as the kernel?
21:37:43 <AnMaster> or some glue C and run in userspace?
21:37:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is a good reason for that too
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21:38:04 <AnMaster> debugging in user space is easier
21:38:35 <pikhq> Bochs is a godsend for kernel debugging.
21:39:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, still user space is easier
21:39:18 <edwardk> a random aside, is anyone here in the Seattle area?
21:39:52 <oklopol> yeah is seattle in that us everyone keeps talking about?
21:40:19 <AnMaster> if I said I was close to Hallsberg
21:40:25 <AnMaster> what country would that imply?
21:40:30 <edwardk> pikhq: heh, we should hit a bar or something some time when I'm back there.
21:40:38 <pikhq> edwardk: Underage.
21:40:56 <tusho> AnMaster: The USA is an economic and political superpower and one of the largest and most populated nations in the world.
21:40:59 <pikhq> It was a random guess.
21:41:04 <tusho> I wouldn't say it's unfair rather than inevitable.
21:41:19 <AnMaster> they still don't own the world
21:41:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: Do you know where New York City is? :p
21:41:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, I do happen to do that yes
21:41:49 <pikhq> Good; you have *one* of our cities.
21:41:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, but do you know where Stockholm is?
21:42:12 <AnMaster> because I know where in US New York is
21:42:26 <AnMaster> and I know where in UK London is
21:42:28 <tusho> Well, I don't know the positions of many places.
21:42:31 <oklopol> AnMaster: but do you know where new york city is in new york?
21:42:34 <tusho> Pretty much only a few places in the UK.
21:42:40 <pikhq> Ah; no. You see, European countries tend to be approximately the same size as our *states*. . .
21:42:54 <oklopol> pikhq: yeah, going for that exact analogy
21:42:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, no, but I didn't ask where in Stockholms Län the city is
21:43:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, which would be the same question
21:43:05 <oklopol> AnMaster: combine what i and pikhq said
21:43:09 <pikhq> And generally, we don't even remember where in a state a city is unless we're in that state.
21:43:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, maybe, but not really relevant
21:43:44 <pikhq> Except that New York and Sweden are roughly the same size.
21:43:56 <oklopol> anyway, i think it's just fair to assume non-americans know usa, and not the other way around, since this is usually the case
21:43:59 <AnMaster> Sweden is as long as New York to Florida iirc
21:44:07 <oklopol> i probably know the states as well as an average american
21:44:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, so your argument doesn't really hold
21:44:47 <AnMaster> yes I agree it is nowhere as wide
21:45:07 <AnMaster> Sweden's area is larger than UK at least
21:45:09 <pikhq> Fine. New York is merely a fourth the area. Fine. s/New York/The East Coast/
21:45:32 <AnMaster> population is smaller in Sweden though
21:45:47 <AnMaster> but you couldn't even say in what part of Sweden Stockholm is
21:45:56 <tusho> AnMaster: He's American.
21:45:58 <oklopol> of course going by what they say about the intelligence of the average american, i know a lot more about the states than they :D
21:45:59 <pikhq> Sorry; I'm used to being out west. . .
21:45:59 <tusho> Are you surprised?
21:46:10 <tusho> GASP! He knows more about his country than Sweden. How amazing.
21:46:28 <AnMaster> of course you know more about your own country
21:46:38 <AnMaster> Americans assume the rest of the world do too
21:46:53 <AnMaster> which is not a nice way to behave
21:47:07 <tusho> Not anyone in here, certainly.
21:47:12 <AnMaster> I don't assume ppl know as much about Sweden as Americas assume Swedes know about America
21:47:27 <AnMaster> not just Americans here, but other places too
21:47:31 <tusho> Anyway, I know that Stockholm is in Sweden. So your argument against people wondering why you don't know where Seattle and Boston are is invalid.
21:47:51 <AnMaster> tusho, not really, Stockholm is the capital after all
21:48:11 <AnMaster> and yes I know where Washington DC is
21:48:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: can you pinpoint d.c.?
21:48:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, east cost, south of New York
21:48:28 <tusho> oklopol: he replied in -0.2 seconds
21:48:32 <AnMaster> can't say exactly where, but quite close
21:48:49 <AnMaster> and I don't ask for GPS coordinates the other way either
21:49:15 <oklopol> about the location of stockholm
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21:49:20 <AnMaster> I just want east or west Sweden, or North/Middle/South
21:49:23 <oklopol> imagine finland and sweden as a set of cock and balls
21:49:36 <oklopol> stockholm is at the bottom of the glans
21:49:43 <tusho> That's an interesting analogy.
21:49:51 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's easier for US citizens to assume other people know about the US. . . First, we don't deal with other countries on a regular basis. . .
21:49:54 <tusho> I like AnMaster's UGH reaction, though.
21:50:11 <AnMaster> tusho, it is comparing countries to them
21:50:14 <pikhq> Our country is similar in size to continents...
21:50:32 <tusho> Whose genitals is it?
21:50:36 <tusho> Or are they severed?
21:50:48 <CakeProphet> pikhq: in general, non-US people do know way more about the US than we know about their countries.
21:51:08 <pikhq> It's approximately the same size as Europe.
21:51:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, then North America = continent. USA = sizeof(continent). North America consists of Canada and USA (and Mexico?)
21:51:50 <pikhq> Canada is also about the same size as Europe. . .
21:51:56 <CakeProphet> and I don't really think it arises as a consequence of Americans being vain/egotistical/other-adjective
21:51:57 <AnMaster> sizeof(continent) == sizeof(continent) + sizeof(Canada) + sizeof(Mexico)
21:52:02 <pikhq> North America is a fucking large continent.
21:52:12 <tusho> Canada is the size of Europe?
21:52:16 <tusho> Well I didn't know that.,
21:52:57 <pikhq> Canada and the US are both about 10 million square kilometers in area. (9 million if you only count land claims)
21:53:47 <pikhq> The EU is only about 4, though.
21:53:59 <AnMaster> oklopol, in your odd analogy above.. what about Norway?
21:54:22 <CakeProphet> but I can definetely agree that... North American countries are... way way bigger.
21:54:52 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Than European countries? By orders of magnitude.
21:54:59 <AnMaster> <CakeProphet> pikhq: in general, non-US people do know way more about the US than we know about their countries. <-- yes... that is sad
21:55:09 <AnMaster> it shows how uninformed most Americans are
21:55:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: Once again: most US citizens don't typically leave the US on a regular basis.
21:55:53 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, pinpoint the capital of Norway
21:56:17 <pikhq> I'd guess that it's roughly equivalent to the amount of people that leave Europe on a regular basis.
21:56:30 <tusho> AnMaster is being pretty fracking rude with his stereotypes of Americans.
21:56:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Capital of Colorado?
21:56:47 <tusho> Ooh ho. Nice one pikhq.
21:56:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, no clue, but capital of US yes. but I'm talking about countries
21:57:07 <tusho> AnMaster: The sizes are the same ..
21:57:17 <tusho> So this is a fair comparison, AnMaster.
21:57:27 <AnMaster> but legally countries are countries
21:57:35 <AnMaster> and it is a fair comparsion that way
21:57:42 <tusho> It's not a useful definitino.
21:57:47 <tusho> We're talking about humans.
21:58:11 <CakeProphet> I think it's just a consequence of relevance. The capital of France is simply not useful information on most days in the US.
22:00:01 <CakeProphet> it's not that the average American doesn't respect the existence of such countries. They are simply too disconnected, perhaps less by choice and more by environment.
22:01:25 <oklopol> 23:53… AnMaster: oklopol, in your odd analogy above.. what about Norway? <<< indeed, what about norway? i didn't mention it.
22:02:56 <CakeProphet> I'm not sure if the capital of Georgia is internationally relevant or not.
22:04:05 <oklopol> wouldn't have remembered the capital
22:04:21 <pikhq> It's barely even locally relevant. :p
22:04:45 <pikhq> See? Who cares about Atlanta?
22:04:56 <CakeProphet> when you are attempting to make a cross-country flight
22:05:19 <oklopol> anyway i doubt AnMaster knows even all european capitals, just scandinavia + the ones that are historically relevant
22:05:57 <oklopol> we have all kinds of fucking schiblamastads here
22:06:35 <CakeProphet> airport, Coke, CNN (Turned Broadcasting) = Atlanta
22:08:05 <CakeProphet> probably from history class... lolcoldwar.
22:11:38 <tusho> CakeProphet: Georgia has some cool bands!
22:11:57 <CakeProphet> ...I just got back from a huge camp out thing.
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22:12:23 <CakeProphet> there was seriously this amazing drummer who was like... inbred.
22:13:39 <tusho> i dunno Guest53704
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23:09:20 <oklopol> in which languages can you do the following: create an object that stores the average value of some variable for a certain amount of updates
23:09:47 <oklopol> and you want to know what the average speed is for a certain amount of cycles
23:09:58 <edwardk> any stream processing language, lucid for instance
23:09:58 <oklopol> so you'd make an averagestorer
23:10:09 <oklopol> edwardk: i haven't finished yet
23:10:54 <oklopol> you would usually have to store each and every value that's been given as an update
23:11:07 <oklopol> as someone might query what the overall average is, at any point
23:11:45 <oklopol> now the point was, err, are there languages that let you see whether the code has any non-precompilable calls to the getaverage function
23:11:57 <oklopol> so that you could use it when deciding the internal storage for the class storing the averages
23:12:11 <oklopol> this is something i've been wanting to add to some language of mine
23:12:25 <oklopol> but i wonder whether languages actually have it, as i haven't heard about such
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