←2008-07-19 2008-07-20 2008-07-21→ ↑2008 ↑all
00:00:32 <psygnisfive> but from this i think its relatively trivial to reduce this to a non-ring based system
00:00:41 <tusho> psygnisfive: until you get to flow.
00:00:45 <psygnisfive> given that the ring positions are unaffected by operations.
00:01:11 <psygnisfive> unless i dont understannd PAdd
00:02:09 <oklopol> you understand it
00:02:15 <oklopol> assuming i understand it
00:02:44 <psygnisfive> i dont see anything that says what padd does.
00:02:49 <psygnisfive> i mean
00:02:55 <psygnisfive> not padd itself but the program position pointer.
00:04:34 <oklopol> what do you expect from the spec of a "Turning tarpit"
00:04:46 <psygnisfive> is the ppp the bit of the source thats currently being read?
00:04:46 <tusho> oklopol: i think thats intentional.
00:04:55 <oklopol> oh
00:04:56 <tusho> psygnisfive: i would say so.
00:04:57 <oklopol> dang :D
00:04:59 <tusho> that's what a pc is
00:05:00 <psygnisfive> ok.
00:05:08 <tusho> oklopol: think about it
00:05:11 <tusho> you TURN the wheel
00:05:12 <tusho> get it?
00:05:13 <tusho> turning tarpit
00:05:28 <oklopol> ...
00:05:35 <tusho> ..
00:05:52 <oklopol> stop rubbing it in my face, that was the stupidest mistake i've made in a month
00:05:54 <psygnisfive> again, i dont see why this is so terribly interesting.
00:06:00 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it's not
00:06:08 <psygnisfive> or not-gimmicky.
00:06:16 <oklopol> well i'm not sure what you mean by that
00:06:37 <psygnisfive> the only way in which PAdd and If can affect flow unpredictably is when you jump to a position thats in the middle of an instruction that itself was for something else.
00:06:46 -!- Corun has joined.
00:07:01 <tusho> psygnisfive: because moving the wheel is extra insructions
00:07:03 <tusho> so you have to account for that
00:07:05 <tusho> by adding on
00:07:08 <tusho> which requires more instructions
00:07:08 <tusho> etc
00:07:12 <psygnisfive> but moving the wheel doesnt affect where you jump to.
00:07:20 <psygnisfive> well, it does in that regard, yes.
00:07:23 <tusho> yes. to do arithmetic on the jump address.
00:07:27 <tusho> or conditionals on it
00:07:54 <psygnisfive> so in that respect moving the wheels can be tricky.
00:07:59 <psygnisfive> except the wheel is a gimmick.
00:08:11 <tusho> psygnisfive: most things are gimmicks
00:08:16 <tusho> this one happens to make a certain area - jumping - harder
00:08:18 <psygnisfive> i dont like most things.
00:08:19 <tusho> and quite interesting
00:08:24 <tusho> nothing has to be the end of the world in new paradigm form
00:08:28 <tusho> it's mildly interesting for that one trait
00:08:32 <psygnisfive> its not interesting if its a gimmick.
00:08:37 <psygnisfive> but thats just me.
00:08:50 <tusho> oh shut up, you're just fucking with terminology now
00:09:23 <psygnisfive> i mean, we can pile gimmick on top of gimmick until the language is so impossible to code in that it requires a novel the length of war and peace just to store a single number into the current register
00:09:31 <psygnisfive> but that doesnt make it interesting.
00:09:38 <psygnisfive> it makes it pointlessly gimmicky.
00:09:46 <tusho> thats not what wheel is.
00:09:51 <psygnisfive> but it is.
00:09:58 <oklopol> :)
00:10:00 <tusho> it's not and you're being an idiot
00:10:01 <tusho> :|
00:10:05 <psygnisfive> without the wheel, you no longer have the monumental "omg the wheel fucks it all up!" thing
00:10:28 <tusho> psygnisfive: i think ill apply that to reactance
00:10:32 <oklopol> i haven't seen a bijection yet
00:10:42 <tusho> without the reactance programming, you no longer have the monumental <insert thing that reactance makes interesting>!
00:10:46 <tusho> reactance is gimmicky and sucks!
00:10:52 <tusho> doesn't. work.
00:10:53 <psygnisfive> you can apply that reactions and you're correct. reactance ISNT supposed to be interesting.
00:11:07 <tusho> oh, so its meant to be boring and plain
00:11:11 <tusho> so why the fuck are you bothering with it
00:11:44 <psygnisfive> because i like designing languages.
00:11:57 <psygnisfive> theres a reason i dont spam about reactance and try to keep it to separate rooms.
00:12:02 <psygnisfive> or did you forget about that?
00:12:04 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
00:12:18 <tusho> well sorry for filling this room with conversation
00:12:29 <tusho> its much nicer when its dead
00:12:30 <psygnisfive> conversation about stupid shit is not conversation worth having.
00:12:41 <oklopol> :D
00:12:42 <tusho> psygnisfive: excuse me, you are in #esoteric.
00:12:45 <psygnisfive> no, it was much nicer when we were actually discussing interesting things like "negative lists"
00:12:52 <psygnisfive> name aside
00:12:53 <oklopol> psygnisfive: get the sand off your vagina
00:13:08 <tusho> also, i'd say that since you spend half the time talking about gay sex, psygnisfive, that's pretty stupid shit that's not worth talking about on an irc channel related to esoteric programming languages
00:13:10 <tusho> weird, I know
00:13:36 <oklopol> hey, that's not fair, he occasionally fights with you and calls you names.
00:13:45 <tusho> oh, that's true
00:13:48 <psygnisfive> and mocks her for her age and gender.
00:13:49 <tusho> marginally more productive, i guess
00:14:13 <oklopol> :)
00:14:21 <psygnisfive> im sorry, i just find it terribly frustrating that the sum total of esoteria is the same shit over and over
00:14:28 <psygnisfive> esoteria?
00:14:30 <psygnisfive> esoterica?
00:14:36 <psygnisfive> you get the point.
00:14:52 <tusho> im not aware of any other language using a rotating instruction wheel and the implications on control flow it has
00:15:00 <tusho> just because you don't personally find it a very interesting idea doesnt' mean that it sucks
00:15:06 <tusho> it just means that you're interested in other things.
00:15:18 <oklopol> anyway, psygnisfive, are you saying graphica isn't an awesome idea?
00:15:24 <psygnisfive> the wheel is a gimmick, as we've already established.
00:15:28 <oklopol> graphica is fucking perfect, man.
00:15:40 <psygnisfive> without the wheel, the implications for control are reduced drastically, if not entirely.
00:15:52 <psygnisfive> nevermind that TWO wheels is entirely superfluous as well.
00:15:56 <tusho> psygnisfive: gimmicks can lead to interesting ideas. tons of interesting esolangs come from gimmicks. it doesn't suck just because it builds stuff upon a gimmick and finds an interesting implication
00:15:59 <psygnisfive> i havent looked at graphica.
00:16:17 <oklopol> yeah then it's just a computed goto, which is something not really any language has as the only way to do flow control
00:16:19 <psygnisfive> i dont see any interesting implications coming out of the wheels.
00:16:43 <oklopol> at least i haven't heard about other than err bob (?) and yabc
00:16:46 <tusho> psygnisfive: that's fine. that doesn't mean we haven't, and it doesn't mean you should go on a huge rant about how much it sucks
00:16:49 <psygnisfive> other than having to be purposelessly mindful of the number of operations to use.
00:16:53 <psygnisfive> i mean, cmon, think about that
00:17:09 <psygnisfive> the interesting part of the language is that you have to fight with the language to get it to work.
00:17:36 <oklopol> i see most interest in developing stuff for wheel that escapes the high-level tokenization you assume everyone will do for it
00:17:39 <tusho> psygnisfive: yes. that can lead to intersting ideas
00:17:41 <tusho> whether you like it or not
00:17:45 <psygnisfive> hey, it takes two people to argue. i said it was gimmicky. if you'd just said "yeah but so what" we wouldnt be here, would we.
00:17:52 <psygnisfive> uh
00:17:54 <psygnisfive> tusho
00:17:57 <psygnisfive> that WAS the interesting idea
00:18:09 <psygnisfive> it didnt lead to one, it WAS one
00:18:10 <tusho> the interesting idea that comes out of it is the implication on its only form of control flow.
00:18:16 <psygnisfive> "fighting with the language" is the interesting idea of Whirl
00:18:20 <tusho> no
00:18:20 <tusho> ist not
00:18:21 <oklopol> :D
00:18:25 <psygnisfive> apparent it is
00:18:34 <psygnisfive> since its the only thing that the wheels force you to do
00:18:54 <psygnisfive> you have to constantly be mindful of how many instructions youve used so that you dont get caught in the tangled web of instruction count
00:18:58 <psygnisfive> thats it
00:19:01 <tusho> this is a conversation filled with an infuriatingly large amount of stupid
00:19:11 <psygnisfive> i agree
00:19:16 <psygnisfive> lets just have an orgy.
00:19:19 <psygnisfive> ::rapes tusho::
00:19:35 <oklopol> :D
00:19:40 <psygnisfive> man, this would've been a great discussion for a podcast, do you realize that?
00:19:45 <psygnisfive> we would've had so many people listening
00:19:48 <tusho> psygnisfive: what, 'no fuck you'
00:19:49 <oklopol> :P
00:19:51 <tusho> 'no, fuck YOU'
00:19:56 <tusho> at least mien would have ended with 'NOMADS!!!'
00:19:59 <tusho> *mine
00:19:59 <psygnisfive> probably to say im an idiot, but THINK OF THE LISTENERSHIP
00:20:17 <oklopol> psygnisfive: have you done much with esolangs, btw? a lot of the fun is exactly in just the fact it's a fucking mindrape :)
00:20:42 <psygnisfive> thats what i dont like about esolangs-as-they-are. theres too much mindrape, and not enough mindfuck.
00:21:19 <tusho> psygnisfive: sez the person who will only ever rape me
00:21:21 <oklopol> well true, and quite well said, almost wanna quote that :P
00:21:22 <psygnisfive> esolangs arent actually esoteric, they're just pointlessly difficult.
00:21:33 <psygnisfive> well im a bottom, so i dont need to rape oklopol
00:21:40 <psygnisfive> and you're 12, what else would you do to a 12 year old?
00:21:46 <lilja> ooh I was just thinking how great it would be if I could just hear this conversation actually being talked
00:21:51 <lilja> the accents
00:21:52 <lilja> ah
00:21:58 <psygnisfive> :)
00:21:58 <oklopol> perv
00:22:07 <tusho> we have to record that podcast tomorrow
00:22:11 <psygnisfive> it'd have to be talked
00:22:12 <tusho> today though it's 00:22 and I am going in like five seconds.
00:22:26 <psygnisfive> if it were fought in person we'd just end up in an orgy! :O
00:22:28 <lilja> :(
00:22:29 <psygnisfive> except tusho, he's too young
00:22:44 <tusho> hmph
00:22:46 <tusho> i am so left out
00:22:57 <psygnisfive> and his cock is too small. i mean, really, im sorry tusho, but 12 year old cock is way too small.
00:23:13 <tusho> ok discussion entering uncanny valley.
00:23:13 <oklopol> yeah, so goddamn small it's ridiculous
00:23:23 <oklopol> what do you think about tusho's cock, lament?
00:23:28 <tusho> lol wut
00:23:33 <psygnisfive> cock is like wine, it gets better with age, but after 30 or so years it starts going down hill. :(
00:23:43 * oklopol continues reading ->
00:24:42 <ihope> Why are you reading the blank space to the right of yourself?
00:24:52 <psygnisfive> tusho: uncanny valley???
00:25:01 <psygnisfive> it's starting to look so real it looks fake? o_O
00:25:24 <tusho> ...
00:25:35 <psygnisfive> well, thats what the uncanny valley is. :(
00:25:40 <psygnisfive> i dont understand your usage!
00:25:49 <ihope> The uncanny valley is when something realistic slowly goes from looking like a realistic object to looking like a very ill human.
00:25:57 <ihope> Oh, I just realized I've had tusho on /ignore this whole time.
00:25:59 <psygnisfive> well thats sort of correct
00:26:07 <tusho> hello ihope
00:26:17 <tusho> damn
00:26:22 <tusho> the previous must be funny without me
00:26:24 <psygnisfive> the uncanny valley is the phenomena where the "humanness" of an item increases steadily as it objectively becomes more human like
00:26:25 <tusho> psygnisfive arguing with silence
00:26:37 <psygnisfive> up until just before it looks perfectly human
00:26:41 <tusho> psygnisfive: the uncanny valley is the phenomena where the "pedophileness" of an item increases steadily as it objectively becomes more pedophile like
00:26:42 <tusho> in this case
00:26:47 <psygnisfive> where it temporarily drops to looking completely weird
00:27:11 <psygnisfive> uh, tusho, that analogy is a poor one. :P
00:27:13 <ihope> tusho: actually, quite boring.
00:27:18 <psygnisfive> infact
00:27:29 <tusho> psygnisfive: i know
00:27:31 <tusho> its terrible
00:27:33 <tusho> that's why i love it
00:27:34 <tusho> :D
00:27:39 <psygnisfive> to continue with it would require that just before something is infact 100% pedo-ish it has to LOOK completely not pedoish
00:27:41 <tusho> esp.
00:27:46 <tusho> since it implies that if you started
00:27:48 <tusho> being totally pedophillic
00:27:51 <tusho> it wouldn't be creepy any more
00:28:00 * ihope waits for the logs to load beyond 2005
00:28:00 <psygnisfive> ::kisses tusho passionately::
00:28:13 <psygnisfive> is that where it stops being creepy?
00:28:15 <psygnisfive> tell me when
00:28:21 <psygnisfive> ::slides hand down tushos pants::
00:28:25 <psygnisfive> am i there yet?
00:28:27 <ihope> Ooh, they're to November...
00:28:38 <psygnisfive> AM I IN YOUR UNCANNY VALLEY? :O
00:28:46 <tusho> psygnisfive: That's the most strained innuendo ever.
00:28:55 <psygnisfive> XD
00:29:26 <tusho> "Are you a robot, baby? Because you're sure in my uncanny alley."
00:29:30 <tusho> er
00:29:31 <tusho> valley.
00:29:39 <psygnisfive> my innuendo is straining these pants, lemme tell ya
00:30:16 <psygnisfive> uncanny alley, a small street behind bars where drunkards fuck ugly pros because they look beautiful?
00:30:28 <psygnisfive> due to beer goggles? lighting? something?
00:31:37 <tusho> Due to your face.
00:31:39 <tusho> Bye for today.
00:31:44 <psygnisfive> D:
00:33:51 <tusho> psygnisfive: Don't worry.
00:33:55 <tusho> There will be rape and podcasts tomorrow.
00:34:09 <ihope> Please tell whoever does the logs to put everything before this year in a separate directory. Right now I'm in September 2006.
00:35:37 <ihope> February 2007...
00:37:27 <ihope> Bye.
00:37:56 <psygnisfive> o.o
00:40:00 <lilja> hrrrr
00:40:11 <psygnisfive> hey lilja.
00:40:12 <psygnisfive> sup.
00:40:35 <lilja> mostly hrrrr
00:40:39 <psygnisfive> :p
00:40:48 <ihope> hrrrr doesn't sound very fun.
00:41:03 <ihope> Oh, the logs have stopped loading.
00:41:07 <psygnisfive> a prolonged version of the first syllable of the croatian word for "croatian"?
00:41:11 <lilja> hmm
00:41:16 <lilja> could be waffles also
00:41:21 <psygnisfive> mm waffles
00:41:31 -!- tusho has quit.
00:41:33 <psygnisfive> ::steals liljas waffles::
00:41:50 <lilja> that's rather skillful
00:41:58 <lilja> since they're not ready
00:42:50 <psygnisfive> i stole them...
00:42:54 <psygnisfive> FROM THE FUTURE
00:43:00 <lilja> :\
00:43:19 <lilja> I guess there's no sense in making them in that case
00:43:26 <psygnisfive> ofcourse there is!
00:43:28 <lilja> hrrrr :(
00:43:40 <oklopol> not making them would destroy the universe
00:43:43 <psygnisfive> if you dont make them, then i couldn't have will eventually steal them
00:43:46 <psygnisfive> exactly!
00:43:48 <oklopol> i'd say better start making them :o
00:43:50 <psygnisfive> PARADOX!
00:43:50 <lilja> bah
00:43:56 <psygnisfive> PADAROX
00:44:02 <psygnisfive> PAXAROD!
00:44:06 <psygnisfive> KURFUFFLE
00:44:11 <lilja> hrr-rr?
00:44:25 <psygnisfive> hey hey hey hey hey
00:44:28 <psygnisfive> you know i dont speak finnish
00:44:36 <lilja> hrr :(
00:44:50 <psygnisfive> take your crazy reindeer language outta here, this is IRC!
00:45:11 <lilja> :<
00:45:22 <psygnisfive> ok fine the finnish can stay
00:45:28 <lilja> hrrr!
00:45:39 <ihope> The word "paradox" is already clumped together; there's nothing you can do with it.
00:45:48 <ihope> Also, the "adox" is happy but the "par" is left out.
00:46:09 <lilja> massage!
00:46:10 <lilja> ---->
00:46:38 <psygnisfive> lüüposuonenää tïïuviasö kuunonëën
00:46:41 <psygnisfive> or whatever
00:47:08 <ihope> The word "massage" clumps to "sagemas". "sagem" is happy, "as" is left out.
00:47:30 <psygnisfive> ihope, what are you doing? XD
00:48:01 <ihope> "doing" clumps to "dogin"; in that, "do", "g" and "i" are happy while "n" is left out.
00:48:15 <psygnisfive> :D
00:48:22 <psygnisfive> ihope is on drugs
00:48:31 <psygnisfive> lilja how was my finnish?
00:48:35 <psygnisfive> were there enough vowels?
00:48:58 <psygnisfive> maybe the words should be longer
00:49:08 <oklopol> that was perfect finnish
00:49:11 <psygnisfive> :D
00:49:13 <oklopol> how did you do that?
00:49:15 <psygnisfive> I R FLUENT
00:49:42 <ihope> "ihopewhat" clumps to "wihopehat", which is an odd case, as "wih" clashes, though you can do it into something like "w" left out, "i" happy, "hope" happy, "ha" left out, "t" happy.
00:49:42 <oklopol> be careful when mixing aou and äöy, they can't exist in the same word
00:50:02 <oklopol> in general
00:50:17 <psygnisfive> wihopehat sounds like Generic Native American
00:51:45 <ihope> Hmph, all the words in that sentence clump to themselves except "sounds", which clumps to "soduns". And hey, the entire word "soduns" is happy.
00:51:54 <psygnisfive> wihopehat chumchukewaya utumqiquhejosiapata
00:52:16 <ihope> (By the way, in the above, if you want to get picky, rather than "ha" being left out, the stem of the "h" is happy and the rest of "ha" is left out.)
00:52:31 <psygnisfive> ihope, what does all of this mean.
00:52:50 <ihope> Oh, it's a thing I used to do.
00:52:55 <psygnisfive> tell me more.
00:53:00 <ihope> My new thing is tapping out melodies on my teeth.
00:53:03 <psygnisfive> tell me about... your mother?
00:53:10 <psygnisfive> explain "happy"
00:53:23 <psygnisfive> also, who DOESNT use their mouth to make melodies?
00:53:43 <psygnisfive> please, dont shoot me under the table just because i asked you to tell me about your mother.
00:53:59 <psygnisfive> there was no mention of tortoises before hand. D:
00:54:00 <ihope> I have five tooth-on-tooth positions that correspond to relative positions of notes, or four for simple melodies or six for complex ones.
00:55:08 <ihope> Take a word, like "sounds", and split it up into chunks of alternating vowels and consonants: "so un d s". Stick the chunks together in reverse: "sdunso". Repeat until you've done it an even number of times and it's no longer changing, so "soduns".
00:55:43 <psygnisfive> wait, what?
00:55:54 <psygnisfive> an even number of times and its no longer changing?
00:56:01 <ihope> Yes.
00:56:04 <psygnisfive> i dont understand
00:56:11 <ihope> If you do the thing to "soduns" twice, you get "soduns" again.
00:56:20 <psygnisfive> oh i see.
00:57:13 <psygnisfive> do it until an even number of split-reverses leaves you back at the start of that series of split-reverses.
00:57:16 <psygnisfive> gotcha.
00:57:43 <ihope> Yep.
00:58:09 <ihope> The o-like letters are acemnorsuvwxz, the b-like letters are bhkp, the d-like letters are dq, and the l-like letters are fgijlty. A b-like letter is equivalent to an l-like letter and an o-like letter, and a d-like letter is equivalent to an o-like letter and an l-like letter. Strings of letters are happy if they consist of an l with an equal number of os on each side of it.
00:58:18 <psygnisfive> o-like?
00:58:31 <psygnisfive> whaaa
00:58:35 <psygnisfive> i dont follow :(
00:58:43 <ihope> So "soduns" is "ooolooo", which has 3 letters on each side.
00:58:49 <psygnisfive> oh i see.
00:58:51 <psygnisfive> you're weird. :D
00:58:54 <ihope> :-)
00:58:55 <psygnisfive> ooolooo
00:59:00 <psygnisfive> sounds like something oklopol would come up with
00:59:22 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
00:59:26 <ihope> "oklopol" is "olololool", which is "olo" (happy), "l" (happy), "olo" (happy), "o" (left out), "l" (happy).
00:59:44 <psygnisfive> "olololool", definitely oklopol there.
00:59:55 <psygnisfive> needs more k tho. oklolool.
01:00:11 <psygnisfive> i would argue that "o" should be happy.
01:00:27 <ihope> Then you'd be able to split everything up into ls and os, which would be happy.
01:00:33 <psygnisfive> on the grounds that since there are no l's, all the l's in the string have the same number of o's on either side.
01:00:34 <psygnisfive> :O
01:01:04 <psygnisfive> you is right.
01:01:09 <psygnisfive> but i like my reasoning.
01:01:14 <ihope> :-)
01:01:27 <ihope> Hmm, that gives kind of a different sense of happiness.
01:01:45 <psygnisfive> merely a superset of happiness
01:01:51 <psygnisfive> i think
01:01:56 <psygnisfive> my semantics professor loved that construction
01:02:06 <psygnisfive> all the Xes in {} are Y.
01:02:07 <psygnisfive> :O
01:02:07 <ihope> Well, it seems you're thinking "oolooloo" would be happy, where in my system it wouldn't.
01:02:33 <ihope> Hmm, so everybody that's nobody will be there! :-)
01:02:45 <ihope> o, k and l are obviously oklopol letters. In "ololobot", "b" and "t" serve as oklopol letters, though they're not true oklopol letters, I think.
01:03:01 <ihope> Ooh, I can okloize my nick.
01:03:07 <psygnisfive> we used to have to rigorously go over the idea of whether or not it could be true to say stuff like
01:03:08 -!- ihope has changed nick to lkoko.
01:03:31 <psygnisfive> well, i dont know like what
01:03:31 <psygnisfive> but
01:03:32 <psygnisfive> :P
01:03:37 <psygnisfive> predicating over an empty set
01:03:40 <psygnisfive> essentially
01:04:03 <psygnisfive> a lot of people in the class didnt get it
01:04:11 <lkoko> Yours is "kollololloo"!
01:04:27 <psygnisfive> are o, l, and k themselves?
01:04:41 <psygnisfive> that is, is oklopols "oklopol"?
01:05:10 <psygnisfive> oh but you said p is b-like
01:05:15 <psygnisfive> so it would atleast be oklobol
01:05:21 <lkoko> And k is b-like, not k-like.
01:05:27 <psygnisfive> haha
01:05:31 <psygnisfive> oblobol?
01:05:43 <lkoko> Yeah. :-)
01:05:53 <psygnisfive> that makes no sense :D
01:06:00 <lkoko> It's a bloopy version of oklopol.
01:08:17 <lkoko> Oh, I missed the fact that k and p are both oklopol letters.
01:08:51 <psygnisfive> ?
01:19:31 -!- TheBlunderbuss has joined.
01:30:51 <lilja> o
01:33:27 <lilja> should I write or sleep?
01:33:46 -!- TheBlunderbuss has left (?).
01:34:23 <psygnisfive> you should write! :o
01:34:26 <psygnisfive> sleep is lame!
01:34:39 <lilja> but I'm quite sleepy
01:34:58 <psygnisfive> ok then sleep
01:35:09 <lilja> hmm hmm
01:35:12 <psygnisfive> or, go into a hypnogogic state and get really fucked up visions then write them down
01:35:17 <lilja> such a difficult decision
01:35:40 <lilja> gaah
01:35:43 <lilja> I'll write
01:37:12 <oklopol> lkoko: i do something with licence numbers
01:37:17 -!- lkoko has changed nick to ihope.
01:37:29 <oklopol> the finnish licence number is of the form CCC-NNN
01:37:34 <oklopol> C=character, N=number
01:37:44 <ihope> Ooh, hypnogogic states are fun.
01:37:50 <ihope> The C can be a letter or a number?
01:37:54 <oklopol> hypnogogic?
01:37:59 <oklopol> no, just a letter
01:38:01 <oklopol> sorry
01:38:28 <oklopol> well anyway
01:38:37 <oklopol> basically, you determine the order of the letter
01:38:38 <oklopol> s
01:38:55 <oklopol> and the idea is to get the number to have the digits in the same order
01:39:03 <oklopol> by doing incs and decs to them
01:39:57 <oklopol> so for AGC-645 you'd do something like 645 -> 545 -> 445 -> 455 -> 465
01:40:13 <oklopol> resulting in a score of 4
01:40:23 <oklopol> small scores are better than big ones
01:40:58 <oklopol> i do this to every licence number i see, usually, if i see no zeroes for a while, i get a bit frustrated
01:41:50 <oklopol> less complex than yours, sadly
01:42:07 <oklopol> i love discovering weird habits like this and letting them grow into obsessions
01:42:34 <psygnisfive> ihope, edison supposedly induced hypnogogic states :o
01:44:22 <lilja> I feel sad
01:44:27 <lilja> I have no odd habits
01:44:30 <ihope> oklopol: oh, wonderful. :-)
01:44:36 <ihope> lilja: it's not too late to get one!
01:44:39 <lilja> except perhaps the hand touching thing
01:44:40 <lilja> hmm
01:44:47 <ihope> Pick an abstract thing.
01:45:26 <lilja> tja, that'd be good
01:45:41 <lilja> hrr-rr
01:46:13 <oklopol> i of course have tons of stuff i do without realizing, but this is the only one that actually requires any computation
01:46:21 <oklopol> the rest are mostly visual things
01:46:55 <oklopol> like finding convex covers, moving dots on the ceiling to form a circle and stuff like that
01:46:57 <ihope> Like estimating whether a line through the laptop's plane of symmetry intersects a nearby glass?
01:47:01 <lilja> oklopol: those aren't that weird
01:47:06 <oklopol> yeah
01:47:08 <ihope> Oh.
01:47:26 <oklopol> lilja: indeed they aren't, as i said, simple visual things
01:47:43 <oklopol> ihope: yeah all kinds of intersections
01:48:00 <oklopol> but those are a bit less interesting than the reorderings, as i often have semi-complex rules for them
01:48:45 <ihope> I was outside one day when I realized that if I lay on the ground and looked around in circles, the sky would appear to be enclosed by the ground, and weirdness would ensue.
01:49:26 <oklopol> heh
01:50:28 <ihope> If I practiced that enough, maybe I'd be able to achieve 360-degree vision in a lucid dream. :-)
01:51:04 <oklopol> you have those nowadays?
01:51:10 <ihope> No.
01:51:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:51:13 <oklopol> i recall you tried and failed, at some point
01:51:15 <oklopol> okay
01:51:19 <ihope> Yeah, pretty much.
01:51:28 <ihope> I guess I do have one occasionally, though never a very good one.
01:51:50 <ihope> "Whoa, I'm dreaming." And then I end up crashing into a nearby wall and everything goes dark, or something.
01:52:47 <ihope> (Though of course you don't measure spheres in degrees, do you? Let's see, the circumference of a unit circle is 2pi, while the surface area of a unit sphere is... hmm, the derivative of 4/3*pi*r^3 at r = 1, which is 4pi. So I guess a sphere has 720 square degrees.)
01:52:55 <oklopol> nowadays half of my dreams happen on irc
01:53:09 <ihope> (Wait, that's not right, is it?)
01:53:10 <psygnisfive> i need someone to sit for me as i try weird shit like inducing hypnogogic states.
01:53:11 <psygnisfive> :O
01:53:15 <psygnisfive> come this fall!
01:53:23 <ihope> Sit for you?
01:53:25 <oklopol> sit for you?
01:53:33 <psygnisfive> trip sit.
01:53:41 <oklopol> right, i guess i know what that means
01:53:43 <psygnisfive> someone who sits around and makes sure you're safe while you trip.
01:54:01 <ihope> Pff, as if hypnogogic states or lucid dreams were unsafe in any way. :-)
01:54:21 <oklopol> ihope: he just wants me to come.
01:54:27 <oklopol> for other reasons
01:54:32 <ihope> (Unless you have schizophrenia or something, in which case you should seek a professional. A professional who knows about lucid dreaming, of course.)
01:55:06 <psygnisfive> i do. :o
01:55:12 <psygnisfive> want oklopol to come, i mean
01:55:16 <psygnisfive> not have schizophrenia XD
01:55:25 <oklopol> :D
01:56:15 <lilja> :)
01:56:56 <oklopol> mental conditions are fun, i wish i had one
01:57:16 * ihope refrains from mentioning that sanity is a mental condition
01:57:28 <ihope> (And fatal familial insomnia.)
01:59:09 <psygnisfive> oklopol, lilja, when is are your birthdays?
01:59:20 <psygnisfive> s/is/
02:00:25 <oklopol> 22.2.2222
02:00:37 <psygnisfive> :(
02:00:39 <ihope> http://22.2.2222/
02:00:44 <lilja> 4th of March
02:00:49 <ihope> Sorry.
02:01:44 <psygnisfive> huh. 6 days before me. :o
02:02:14 <oklopol> perhaps we should celebrate these days with a week long orgy
02:02:26 <psygnisfive> sounds like a plan!
02:02:27 <oklopol> psygnisfive: what is your age
02:02:33 <psygnisfive> 22
02:02:33 <oklopol> in years and seconds
02:02:38 <psygnisfive> pfft. :P
02:02:43 <lilja> :)
02:02:55 <psygnisfive> microseconds would be better.
02:03:24 <ihope> "An orgy (όργιον) was a secret cultic congregation at nighttime in Ancient Greek religion, overseen by an orgiophant." Interesting.
02:03:25 <oklopol> too much information!
02:04:02 <psygnisfive> orgiophant, a subspecies of the elephant, known for their proclivity towards large sexual gatherings.
02:08:12 <psygnisfive> lilja, you're a crazy sexually liberal finn, whats the perviest thing you'd do
02:08:49 <psygnisfive> you too oklopol. be honest
02:08:50 <psygnisfive> :o
02:13:39 <lilja> hmm
02:13:43 <lilja> I dunno
02:13:47 <lilja> but hey
02:13:54 <lilja> oklopol's making waffles!
02:14:35 <psygnisfive> cmon tell :o
02:14:38 -!- Corun has joined.
02:14:42 <psygnisfive> and dont give some silly pervy thing like rimming
02:14:46 <psygnisfive> "oh im into rimming :O"
02:14:51 <psygnisfive> no i want a real pervy thing
02:15:00 <psygnisfive> like "oh i love dog cock" or something. something INTERESTING.
02:16:45 <psygnisfive> *crickets*
02:16:54 <psygnisfive> this is boring. you're not saying anything interesting. :(
02:16:59 <psygnisfive> you're not saying anything! D:
02:17:29 <ihope> Waffles. >:-)
02:17:35 <psygnisfive> thats like expected.
02:17:37 <psygnisfive> of all humans.
02:17:44 <psygnisfive> i'd totally fuck a waffle.
02:17:49 <ihope> Glass stir rods are very useful, actually.
02:17:50 <psygnisfive> or eat a waffle with cum cream.
02:17:51 <psygnisfive> :o
02:17:57 <psygnisfive> glass stir rods?
02:18:00 <psygnisfive> for sounding?
02:18:06 <ihope> I don't know what that is.
02:18:18 <psygnisfive> insert of stuff in your urethra.
02:18:51 <psygnisfive> insertion*
02:18:52 <ihope> Just one of the many possibilities.
02:19:06 <psygnisfive> ihope, what are your pervs
02:19:08 <psygnisfive> besides waffles
02:19:13 <ihope> :-P
02:19:33 <ihope> What are pervs, exactly?
02:20:04 <psygnisfive> god, i have way too many.
02:20:21 <psygnisfive> i have a picture that actually highlights all of the things i'd do, off the fetish map from deviant desires
02:20:50 <psygnisfive> but i wanna know the PERVIEST thing you're into
02:20:51 <psygnisfive> :o
02:20:59 <lilja> hrrrr
02:21:02 <psygnisfive> not all of your pervs.
02:21:11 <psygnisfive> lilja is aroused by hrr. :o
02:21:18 <lilja> of course
02:21:19 <psygnisfive> thats why she keeps saying it!
02:21:25 <psygnisfive> she's masturbating!
02:21:35 <lilja> all the time
02:21:46 <lilja> hrrrrrrrrrrrr
02:21:51 <psygnisfive> poop back and forth forever :o
02:21:57 <oklopol> what's boring about rimming?
02:22:02 <oklopol> too normal or too weird?
02:22:09 <psygnisfive> too normal.
02:22:25 <psygnisfive> i mean, everyone does it.
02:22:28 <psygnisfive> atleast if you're gay.
02:22:35 <psygnisfive> and those who dont are weird germophobes
02:23:38 <psygnisfive> tell me!
02:23:40 <psygnisfive> what are your pervs!
02:24:02 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yeah thought so, but hadn't read your next two lines yet
02:24:10 <oklopol> not that i'm going to answer still :D
02:24:17 <psygnisfive> aww why not? :(
02:24:18 <oklopol> but yeah, everyone does it
02:24:58 <psygnisfive> why no tell?
02:25:25 <oklopol> i like pretty much everything
02:25:32 <psygnisfive> you're into zoo?
02:25:33 <psygnisfive> scat?
02:25:41 <psygnisfive> gore?
02:25:41 <psygnisfive> :o
02:25:53 <ihope> I might be into one of these things.
02:25:59 <psygnisfive> oh just tell which ihope
02:26:01 <psygnisfive> jesus christ
02:26:08 <oklopol> :D
02:26:09 <ihope> I'm not familiar with your terminology.
02:26:21 <oklopol> animal shit blood
02:26:28 <psygnisfive> gore is more than just blood
02:26:31 <psygnisfive> its .. gore.
02:26:32 <oklopol> yeah
02:26:34 <ihope> Besides, I'm 15, you perverts. :-P
02:26:35 <psygnisfive> blood, guts, etc.
02:26:42 <oklopol> i'm sure ihope cares about the details
02:26:45 <psygnisfive> so which are you into, ihope.
02:26:53 <psygnisfive> zoo, scat, or gore?
02:27:02 <oklopol> ihope: i'm pretty sure i was more perverted than now when i was 15 :P
02:27:04 <psygnisfive> and oklopol: was that a yes? :P
02:27:13 <oklopol> yes to what?
02:27:15 <psygnisfive> that you're into zoo+scat+gore
02:27:16 <psygnisfive> :P
02:27:17 <oklopol> :D
02:27:22 <oklopol> oh you funny man
02:27:24 <ihope> Hmm, none of those, I think.
02:27:26 <psygnisfive> oh cmon dont be so cryptic :p
02:27:33 <psygnisfive> ok well whats your perviest interest, ihope.
02:27:34 <psygnisfive> be honest.
02:27:43 <psygnisfive> noone here will think you're weird.
02:27:46 <oklopol> psygnisfive: specifically, i will not answer on this channel, if asked with a serious tone
02:27:49 <psygnisfive> im an amoralist and oklopol's finnish.
02:28:00 <psygnisfive> so you'll answer if i ask with a humorous tone?
02:28:02 <oklopol> i don't see that as "appropriate" :o
02:28:13 <oklopol> well i've talked about scat here with bsmntbombdood
02:29:29 <psygnisfive> ihope, cmon, dish.
02:29:35 <psygnisfive> oklopol is into scat. what about you.
02:29:46 <oklopol> sure sure
02:32:06 <psygnisfive> here, since you're worried about logs
02:32:09 <psygnisfive> #esofetishes
02:32:15 <oklopol> lol :D
02:32:20 <oklopol> we had #esoteric-sex a while back
02:32:29 <psygnisfive> haha
02:32:42 <psygnisfive> then i came and turned #esoteric into that? :p
02:32:46 <psygnisfive> cmon! join!
02:32:47 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
02:32:47 <psygnisfive> talk!
02:32:58 <ihope> Hey, I've only made out with Ashley and Ethan so far? I need to make out with Mission as well.
02:33:09 <psygnisfive> Mission?
02:33:15 <ihope> I'm already in love with the three of them, so it should be no trouble.
02:33:23 <ihope> Yes, I know Mission is a weird name. I didn't name her.
02:33:26 <psygnisfive> names these days
02:33:32 <ihope> Yeah.
02:33:34 <psygnisfive> i love them, but man are they weird
02:35:15 <ihope> There's also this guy named Ash that I'd like to love if I can...
02:36:16 <oklopol> pikhq likes ash
02:36:31 <ihope> Does he have The Sims Life Stories too?
02:38:16 <psygnisfive> hahaha
02:40:58 <psygnisfive> so ihope, cmon, tell. whats your fetish.
02:41:06 <psygnisfive> :|
02:41:42 <ihope> Well, I guess furry has a stereotype of being fetishy anyway.
02:42:08 <psygnisfive> furry is normal
02:42:13 <psygnisfive> everyone here is a furry
02:42:32 <ihope> What, really?
02:42:36 <psygnisfive> no but perhaps.
02:42:43 <psygnisfive> i am. oklopol could be.
02:42:45 <ihope> Now you're going to tell me everything else I say is normal. :-P
02:42:47 <psygnisfive> perhaps hes a husky
02:43:04 <psygnisfive> no, tusho is a husky, hes more random
02:43:11 <psygnisfive> and hyper
02:43:36 <psygnisfive> but since you're a fur. i'd give you a 50% chance of being into zoo
02:43:52 <ihope> What is zoo?
02:43:57 <psygnisfive> animals.
02:44:47 <psygnisfive> half the furs i know are into zoo.
02:44:52 <ihope> Physical animals?
02:44:52 <psygnisfive> and a good number of nonfurs i know.
02:44:58 <psygnisfive> a lot of them are really fucking hot too
02:44:59 <ihope> Real ones?
02:45:05 <psygnisfive> yes, ihope, real animals.
02:45:05 <psygnisfive> :P
02:45:21 <ihope> Not that, no. I'm the huggy type. :-P
02:45:29 <psygnisfive> the huggy type?
02:46:13 <ihope> Never mind. :-)
02:46:18 <psygnisfive> tell me! :O
02:47:03 <ihope> The kind who would like hugging.
02:47:09 <psygnisfive> ah. ::hugs ihope::
02:47:16 * ihope hugs psygnisfive
02:47:56 <psygnisfive> but zoo isnt about the intimacy so i'll assume you're into it. :P
02:48:25 <ihope> I have a pet cat. I do not do anything "special" to her. :-P
02:48:57 <psygnisfive> its a cat. itd be weird if you did.
02:49:02 <psygnisfive> most zoo is dog-centric.
02:49:16 <psygnisfive> with plenty of horse-oriented fantasy but for obvious reasons it's hard to do with male horses.
02:50:16 <ihope> I heard about someone who had heard about someone who had supposedly done that.
02:50:31 <ihope> Heard someone who had heard about someone, rather.
02:50:45 <psygnisfive> its dangerous. ive seen it, and its usually messy and silly looking and probably not terribly fun.
02:51:01 <psygnisfive> tho i hear llamas or a related species have 3 foot prehensile cocks.
02:51:07 <psygnisfive> which are relatively thin.
02:51:09 <ihope> I wouldn't want to do it.
02:51:14 <psygnisfive> liar
02:51:20 <ihope> Relative to their length, or the size of the animal, or...
02:51:23 <psygnisfive> you'd totally hit that 3 foot prehensile cock wouldnt you
02:51:28 <psygnisfive> snaking all inside you
02:51:30 <psygnisfive> you pervert
02:51:35 <psygnisfive> you're a sicko!
02:51:54 <ihope> You pervert. You're a sicko.
02:52:19 <ihope> I do find it interesting that humans are one of the few animals... oh, I'll leave that for a later discussion.
02:52:28 <oklopol> do go on
02:52:30 <psygnisfive> no do finish that sentence
02:52:36 <psygnisfive> oklopols into scat, he wont mind
02:52:48 <psygnisfive> and tusho's a girl, so god knows what would bother him.
02:52:48 <psygnisfive> her.
02:52:49 <psygnisfive> it.
02:53:15 <ihope> Just like how English is one of the few (if not the only) languages where the words for meats and the words for the animals they come from are different.
02:53:37 <ihope> Pork from pigs, beef from cows, though chicken does in fact come from chickens.
02:53:49 <psygnisfive> pork and beef are imported words
02:53:54 <psygnisfive> i dont know the pre-norman words
02:54:19 <psygnisfive> but its just a note that thats why the words are porc and beef
02:54:26 <psygnisfive> pork*
02:54:34 <ihope> Something like pork and beef being from Old French and pigs and cows being Germanic Something.
02:55:27 <psygnisfive> well theres this old trope that the words for the meat came from french because the aristocracy was french and were the only ones who could afford the meat as food
02:55:38 <ihope> Yeah, that's what I heard.
02:55:46 <psygnisfive> and the words for the animals were old english since the people who raised them were OE speakers and never ate the animals because of cost
02:55:50 <psygnisfive> but thats completely wrong.
02:55:59 <ihope> I think I've heard that, too.
02:57:30 <psygnisfive> trust me, i'm a linguist.
02:57:32 <psygnisfive> btw
02:57:38 <psygnisfive> anyone have any good reads on computation theory?
02:58:27 <ihope> Hmm, this channel has gone from sex back to computation? I'll have to finish my sentence, then.
02:58:47 <ihope> Humans are one of the few animals without an erectile bone, I think it is.
02:58:57 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i have a nice one in finnish.
02:58:59 <ihope> I'm not sure how those things work.
02:59:09 <oklopol> i don't know about one of the few
02:59:13 <oklopol> but one of those yeah
03:00:32 <psygnisfive> i dont want finnish! >O
03:00:45 <psygnisfive> this is true.
03:00:47 <oklopol> :)
03:00:48 <psygnisfive> no erectile bone
03:01:42 <ihope> Uh oh. I hope I know something you don't.
03:02:00 <oklopol> are you named after that?
03:02:26 <ihope> My name comes from... darker times.
03:02:35 <psygnisfive> its actually native american
03:02:40 <psygnisfive> its said ee-hoe-pay
03:02:55 <ihope> My ancestors made me swear an oath that I would never disclose the origin of my name.
03:02:59 <psygnisfive> it means "bringer of death" in ojibwa
03:03:08 <ihope> Oh, and I went and told you. Darn it.
03:03:29 <psygnisfive> ihope is infact an ancient ojibwa "Demon"
03:03:36 <psygnisfive> not a demon, as such
03:04:06 <psygnisfive> his presence has the unfortunate side effect of always coinciding, not by his actions, with great amounts of death and destruction
03:04:14 <ihope> But it is a very ancient name. You know how I go by the name "Ivan Hope CXXVII" where a name-like name is warranted?
03:04:28 <oklopol> ihope: why would you want to know something we don't?
03:04:31 <psygnisfive> Czarist Russia?
03:04:40 <ihope> I don't want to lose. :-)
03:05:03 <psygnisfive> and yet discovering you dont know something means you win.
03:05:06 <psygnisfive> how peculiar.
03:05:17 <pikhq> oklopol: Um, WTF?
03:05:34 <psygnisfive> pikhq: whats your perviest fantasy/fetish/kink
03:05:35 <oklopol> pikhq: a complex joke.
03:05:44 <oklopol> ash is this guy on a tv show
03:05:47 <pikhq> oklopol: Fair 'nough.
03:06:01 <pikhq> psygnisfive: I can't believe I walked into this.
03:06:03 <oklopol> got it?
03:06:10 <psygnisfive> i heard an aussie aboriginal named ash dargan play didge once
03:06:14 <oklopol> pokemon joke just in case you didn't.
03:06:16 <psygnisfive> great musician.
03:06:20 <pikhq> *Ah*.
03:06:24 <psygnisfive> gotta catch 'em all.
03:06:34 <psygnisfive> pikhq: cmon, tell me.
03:06:36 <psygnisfive> whats your perv.
03:06:44 <oklopol> :)
03:06:54 <psygnisfive> this is #esoteric. everyones either a furry, a zoo, a scathead, or finnish.
03:07:13 <pikhq> None of the above.
03:07:23 <psygnisfive> gore?
03:07:24 <psygnisfive> incest?
03:07:25 <ihope> I read Freefall, by (gasp!) the way; did you know that?
03:07:26 <psygnisfive> bdsm?
03:07:31 <psygnisfive> GIRLS?
03:07:37 <ihope> Oh, BDSM, that's an interesting case.
03:07:46 <psygnisfive> BDSM isnt really fetishy to me but
03:07:47 <pikhq> Definitely into girls. :p
03:07:48 -!- oerjan has joined.
03:07:48 <psygnisfive> to most it is
03:07:55 <pikhq> But that's not a fetish, now is it?
03:07:57 <psygnisfive> ew. pikhq, you freak, get out of here.
03:08:02 <ihope> I'm sure I'll be into girls one of these days.
03:08:02 <psygnisfive> oerjan, whats your fetish
03:09:02 <oerjan> i could tell you, but then i would have to kill you
03:09:03 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, *that* is what you just walked in to.
03:09:16 <psygnisfive> im somewhat into gore. and vore. so tell me.
03:09:48 <pikhq> I get off on tentacle pron. There, that suffice?
03:09:57 <psygnisfive> typical.
03:09:58 <psygnisfive> who doesnt.
03:10:11 <psygnisfive> be moar intrsting kay?
03:10:15 <oerjan> O_O
03:10:27 <pikhq> Um. . .
03:10:28 * oerjan is starting to regret he didn't check the logs _first_
03:10:39 <pikhq> Most people find it about as bad as guro.
03:10:41 <psygnisfive> because if he had, he'd be masturbating right now
03:10:46 <psygnisfive> really?
03:10:57 <psygnisfive> i figured tentacle rape was one of the lesser fetishes
03:11:19 <psygnisfive> given that its essentially Multiple Massive Prehensile Cocks
03:11:25 <psygnisfive> and really, who DOESNT love multiple massive prehensile cocks
03:12:00 * oklopol imagines tusho yelling COCKS out loud
03:12:07 <psygnisfive> NOMADS!
03:12:13 <oklopol> NOMAAADS
03:12:35 <oerjan> MONADS!
03:12:52 <psygnisfive> oerjan has a monads fetish.
03:13:06 <ihope> Just an ordinary brain fetish.
03:13:16 <psygnisfive> he likes to functor your monad
03:13:20 <psygnisfive> if you know what i mean
03:13:41 <oerjan> in an injective and epic way
03:14:20 <psygnisfive> we should invent new terms for sexualities
03:14:26 <psygnisfive> i submit bijective as a new term for bisexual.
03:14:53 <psygnisfive> and homoiconicity for homosexuality.
03:14:53 <ihope> But "bijection"!
03:15:06 <psygnisfive> bijection is when you cum in a guy and a girl at the same time.
03:15:06 <oklopol> bijection would make no sense for bisexuality
03:15:14 <ihope> Indeed.
03:15:16 <oerjan> monic clearly implies masturbation
03:15:19 <oklopol> except for the punny stuff
03:15:23 <oklopol> "hihi goes both ways"
03:15:26 <ihope> oerjan: automorphism.
03:15:32 <ihope> A bijection could be defined as a both-ways injection, no?
03:15:32 <oerjan> ah yes
03:15:38 <oklopol> ihope: yes
03:15:59 <oklopol> a perfect mapping
03:16:05 <psygnisfive> bijection could alternatively mean oral-anal/vaginal double penetration
03:16:24 <ihope> Nah. :-)
03:16:35 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Ya really.
03:16:38 <psygnisfive> i love the enthusiasm with which you guys picked up this topic
03:17:01 <pikhq> (BTW, guro? *shudder*)
03:17:20 <psygnisfive> ::stabs pikhq in the side then fucks the hole::
03:17:26 <ihope> Hmm, I suddenly realize I don't actually know what "injective" means.
03:17:45 <oerjan> one-to-one
03:17:49 <ihope> psygnisfive: oh, I saw that in a playground once.
03:17:52 * pikhq grows several prehensile cocks, heads off to another channel to search for girls
03:17:57 <psygnisfive> are you serious? XD
03:18:12 <pikhq> Hmm. Perhaps I should put on my robe and wizard hat?
03:18:21 <psygnisfive> <3 you pikhq
03:18:27 <ihope> To be specific, I saw "i want to slit your throat and fuck the wound" carved into a woody thing.
03:18:35 <ihope> That was back when I thought the word meant "infect". It made sense.
03:18:37 <oklopol> that's slipknot lyrics
03:18:55 * oerjan notes that somewhere on the internet there are people who _do_ have a robe and wizard hat fetish (rule thirty-something)
03:18:55 <ihope> Lyrics, really?
03:19:01 <oklopol> yeah
03:19:25 <oklopol> ...i wanna push my face in and feel the swoon, wanna dig inside, find a little bit of me, coz something something if you don't come clean
03:19:26 <psygnisfive> 32.
03:19:34 <oklopol> where wormwood meets my pesticide
03:19:41 <oerjan> oklopol, now even ruining people's sweet childhood memories
03:19:42 <oklopol> you can never die, coz you were never alive
03:19:43 <ihope> Cool.
03:19:45 <psygnisfive> slipknot ::vomits::
03:19:46 <oklopol> and then i forget.
03:19:50 <oklopol> :)
03:19:53 <psygnisfive> numetal is the worst ever.
03:20:05 <oklopol> i don't generally like it, but i like slipknot
03:20:09 <oerjan> also, ruining my stomach
03:20:12 <oklopol> it's not really a good example of the genre
03:20:16 <psygnisfive> you have shit taste in music then.
03:20:22 <oklopol> :)
03:20:23 <oklopol> nah
03:20:50 <psygnisfive> yah
03:21:58 <psygnisfive> real metal > numetal
03:22:32 <oklopol> i simply like the voice of the singer, and they do have nice riffs, although admittedly don't know how to vary them
03:22:58 <psygnisfive> numetal lyrics are also mindnumblingly stupid
03:24:14 <oklopol> w/e
03:24:50 <psygnisfive> :P
03:26:05 <ihope> Wow, how convenient. My Sim has the Romance aspiration. He got the high-level want "Make Out with Three Sims", so I called over a third Sim and had him make out with her. Then the high-level wants "WooHoo in Bed" and "WooHoo in Hot Tub" appeared, so I had them WooHoo in a hot tub and now they're headed for bed.
03:26:42 <ihope> He also has the "Public WooHoo" want, so there's yet another thing I can try.
03:27:12 <psygnisfive> lmfao is this seriously all in The Sims?
03:27:21 <ihope> The Sims Life Stories.
03:27:27 <psygnisfive> thats so fucked up XD
03:27:30 <ihope> :-)
03:27:35 <psygnisfive> and completely unrealistic
03:27:39 <ihope> No, he is. :-P
03:27:39 * oerjan now just needs to know what WooHoo means. or maybe not.
03:27:57 <oerjan> oh wait
03:28:54 <ihope> And he also has the "WooHoo with 5 Different Sims" want; I'll work toward that one.
03:29:52 <ihope> Aww, and I'm just about to ask her to stay the night or something when she says it's time to go home.
03:30:41 <oklopol> just press "woohoo hand" and you get the same amount of happy points
03:30:53 <ihope> :-P
03:33:32 <ihope> Oh, now I remember why killing your Sims is advantageous.
03:33:41 <ihope> It makes their paintings more valuable.
03:34:12 <oerjan> :D
03:34:29 <pikhq> Dammit.
03:34:39 <pikhq> Now I wish The Sims would work under WINE.
03:34:47 <ihope> Have too many Sims? Don't bother with moving them out; just have one stand outside until a satellite falls on them.
03:34:52 <pikhq> (or that I had The Sims 2 (that works in WINE, right?))
03:35:04 <ihope> Or let them get devoured by flies.
03:37:35 <ihope> Public WooHoo happens inside a Clothing Booth, so let's see where there's one of those...
03:37:53 <psygnisfive> im gonna have a roommate this fall who's into public sex
03:40:58 <pikhq> Hmm. I should probably talk to my roommate this fall. . .
03:41:24 <pikhq> And mutter about how my college decided to ask for roommate requests, only to completely ignore them.
03:41:47 <psygnisfive> lol
03:41:48 <oklopol> is he a total doodoo head?
03:41:52 <psygnisfive> ichose my roomie :)
03:47:10 <pikhq> Dunno; not talked to him.
03:47:21 <pikhq> The guy I *asked* for is totally awesome.
03:47:32 <pikhq> (and tends to lurk in #esoteric)
03:49:03 <psygnisfive> were you going to have hot gay sex?
03:49:08 <oerjan> but, but, i am not going into college...
03:49:21 <ihope> Must be Seth.
03:49:36 <oerjan> ah, lurk
03:49:37 <ihope> I'm not going to refer to him by any other name from now on. :-P
03:52:40 <pikhq> ihope: No, Cherez.
03:52:49 <ihope> Oh.
03:53:02 <pikhq> He's en route from LA to Kansas City ATM, so he's not on. ;)
03:53:21 <ihope> I have a feeling my referring to Seth by his name has been retaliated against.
03:53:32 <pikhq> oerjan: Also, you and I are in completely different continents.
03:53:33 <oerjan> karma is hard
03:53:38 <pikhq> :p
03:53:52 <ihope> Some would say that the preposition does not belong at the end of that sentence. I wonder how they would rephrase that.
03:53:56 <oerjan> pikhq: hey that was what i was going to say :D
03:54:15 <ihope> Something like "I have a feeling my referring against to Seth by his name has been retaliated.", I suppose.
03:54:36 <oerjan> argh
03:55:04 <oerjan> i thought the point was to get the preposition in front of its complement [?]
03:55:40 <pikhq> I say that English doesn't have a formal grammer, so feel free: prepositions are something sentences may be ended with.
03:55:57 <oerjan> as in other germanic languages
03:56:29 <oerjan> in norwegian trying to get the preposition _not_ last would require using archaic pronouns
03:57:14 <psygnisfive> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/1.gif
03:57:21 <psygnisfive> i totally agree.
03:57:30 <psygnisfive> that double cheese burger is totally fuckable.
03:57:33 <psygnisfive> mmm yeah baby
04:04:23 <pikhq> ... Do they know WTF they're talking about?
04:04:56 <psygnisfive> who what when
04:05:05 <psygnisfive> oh hey yo're talking about language
04:05:05 <psygnisfive> :o
04:05:16 <psygnisfive> let me read it over and see why you're probably wrong
04:06:04 <psygnisfive> people who say that you shouldnt end a sentence with a preposition are idiots who dont understand why you very well can do that.
04:08:35 <pikhq> I say, if Shakespeare could do it, then I can.
04:09:07 <psygnisfive> http://youtube.com/watch?v=cW-bomqZ3Lw
04:09:07 <pikhq> (my English gets a bit odd when I'm in the mood to wax Shakespearean. ;))
04:09:09 <psygnisfive> the guy is hot
04:09:16 <psygnisfive> his behavior is excessively artificial.
04:09:38 <psygnisfive> shakespearean english is artificial poetic prose, you know. during his time noone spoke like that.
04:10:17 <bsmntbombdood> hell yes
04:10:21 <psygnisfive> hell yes?
04:10:21 <pikhq> Some lines were written how the commoner would speak.
04:10:31 <psygnisfive> the lines of commoners? :P
04:10:32 <pikhq> (typically the lower-class folk within his plays)
04:10:34 <pikhq> Bingo.
04:10:37 <psygnisfive> :P
04:10:45 <pikhq> However, I *don't care*.
04:10:47 <bsmntbombdood> fuck shakespear
04:10:47 <psygnisfive> bsmntbombdood: what hell yes
04:10:50 <bsmntbombdood> fucking thing sucks
04:11:01 <pikhq> I also wax poetic at times. ;)
04:11:12 <psygnisfive> omg
04:11:16 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Never read him beyond what you had to do for class?
04:11:18 <psygnisfive> James Joyce wrote esopoetry
04:11:20 <psygnisfive> :O :O :O
04:11:25 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: correct, sir
04:11:28 <bsmntbombdood> no desire to
04:11:39 <pikhq> Shakespeare as taught in school sucks balls.
04:11:41 <psygnisfive> Finnegan's Wake is an esopoem! :O
04:12:03 <pikhq> Shakespeare enjoyed on one's own time is actually worthwhile.
04:12:05 <oerjan> Three quarks for muster Mark
04:12:15 * ihope eats psygnisfive's apostrophe
04:12:32 <psygnisfive> every time i heard "Finnegans Wake"
04:12:36 <psygnisfive> i think it should be something related to like
04:12:50 <psygnisfive> a hyperspace ripple or something
04:13:03 <ihope> I guess the deprepositioning of that sentence way up there would be something like "I have a feeling it has been retaliated against my referring to Seth by his name".
04:13:06 <psygnisfive> i think i associate it with that because of some story
04:13:09 <psygnisfive> Newtons Wake or something
04:13:18 <ihope> Wait, that doesn't work, either.
04:13:20 <psygnisfive> which had a very fantastical scifi cover
04:13:28 <psygnisfive> what?
04:13:32 <psygnisfive> ill do it, jesus christ
04:14:04 <psygnisfive> you're trying to un-strand the preposition in "I have a feeling my referring to Seth by his name has been retaliated against."?
04:14:23 <pikhq> ihope: That sounds ridiculously pretentious.
04:14:41 <ihope> psygnisfive: yep.
04:14:50 <psygnisfive> I have a feeling someone's retaliated against my referring to Seth by his name.
04:14:53 <pikhq> This coming from a guy who has been accused of being 'as pedantic as the Comic Book Guy'.
04:14:55 <ihope> pikhq: it's also weird and doesn't actually do anything.
04:15:01 * pikhq nods
04:15:19 <ihope> psygnisfive: but that introduces a "someone". You're not allowed to do that. :-)
04:15:24 <psygnisfive> actually i am
04:15:28 <psygnisfive> since the sentence is passive
04:15:35 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Also, that ad?
04:15:37 <psygnisfive> which has an implicit agent
04:15:47 <psygnisfive> the active form would require an explicit agent
04:15:48 <psygnisfive> hence someone
04:15:49 <pikhq> That's almost as stupid as "Head On".
04:15:53 <pikhq> *Almost*.
04:16:15 <ihope> Also, my mom is a fan of sentences such as "I have an alarm clock that I know when it will go off", sticking an entire sentence inside that type of "that" phrase.
04:16:23 <psygnisfive> you cant exactly passivize "X retaliated against Y" without stranding the preposition because Y isnt a direct object
04:16:38 <psygnisfive> and since your version IS passive and thus thats the source of the stranding
04:16:47 <psygnisfive> to remove the stranding, you have to make it active.
04:17:04 <psygnisfive> your mom has weird island rules.
04:17:18 <psygnisfive> but the reason you give is not the reason its odd. :)
04:17:26 <ihope> I guess you could fix it by saying "I have an alarm clock that has me know when it will go off".
04:17:37 <psygnisfive> ihope, you're hopeless.
04:17:58 <ihope> Isn't sticking a whole sentence in into a "that"... wrongful?
04:18:02 <psygnisfive> no.
04:18:08 <psygnisfive> I think that you dont know what you're talking about.
04:18:25 <psygnisfive> But it's still true that your mom knows when the alarm clock will go off.
04:18:36 <ihope> I've never heard anyone but my mom say such a thing.
04:18:40 <psygnisfive> and i think that she's well aware of the intriguing nature of her sentences.
04:18:49 <psygnisfive> ihope, i guarantee that you've said such things yourself.
04:18:59 <ihope> Indeed, on some occasions.
04:19:11 <psygnisfive> the sentence she used however is still peculiar
04:19:15 <psygnisfive> but not for the reasons you cite.
04:19:23 <ihope> Why is it peculiar?
04:19:28 <psygnisfive> "it".
04:19:41 <ihope> That's what I said.
04:19:57 <psygnisfive> uh
04:20:04 <psygnisfive> you said it was because of the whole sentence.
04:20:05 <pikhq> ihope: I use it quite commonly.
04:20:06 <psygnisfive> not because of the "it"
04:20:09 <ihope> In something like "I have an alarm clock that has been painted pink", the thing inside "that" is "has been painted pink", which is not a full sentence.
04:20:31 <ihope> In "I have an alarm clock that I know when it will go off", the thing inside "that" is "I know when it will go off", which is.
04:20:35 <psygnisfive> yes
04:20:39 <psygnisfive> but the problem is your analysis is wrng
04:20:46 <psygnisfive> it only works in this one situation
04:20:55 <psygnisfive> that <sentence> is common and acceptable.
04:21:00 <pikhq> "I have an alarm clock that I painted pink." -- fairly simple example. . .
04:21:12 <pikhq> And that form is ridiculously common in English.
04:21:18 <psygnisfive> its NOT acceptable when one of the arguments to the verb of the relative clause is the head of the noun phrase that the relative clause modifies.
04:21:44 <pikhq> (It's also fairly natural in Esperanto, FWIW)
04:21:57 <psygnisfive> you cant use a pronoun to refer back to the noun that the enclosing clause modifies.
04:21:59 <psygnisfive> that is
04:22:02 <psygnisfive> this construction
04:22:23 <psygnisfive> [NP ... N{i} ... [C ... it{i} ...]] is invalid
04:22:23 <ihope> pikhq: I'd interpret "I painted pink" there as part of a sentence such as "it I painted pink", an odd way of saying "I painted it pink".
04:22:25 <psygnisfive> sometimes.
04:22:45 <ihope> "I painted pink" is syntactically normal, semantically weird.
04:22:52 <psygnisfive> where N{i} and it{i} are coindexed to indicate coreferentiality.
04:23:03 <pikhq> ihope: Glee.
04:23:10 <psygnisfive> actually its not syntactically normal either
04:23:14 * pikhq paints white
04:23:21 <ihope> It isn't?
04:23:22 <psygnisfive> since paint requires two arguments. :P
04:23:37 <pikhq> No it doesn't.
04:23:43 <psygnisfive> its only syntactically normal if one of those arguments has a null phonological (and thus typographical) form
04:23:44 * ihope paints pikhq
04:23:57 <psygnisfive> well, it doesnt if you're using a different verb paint
04:24:01 <psygnisfive> as in, "I paint."
04:24:13 <ihope> Hmm, so "I paint pikhq" is "I paint pikhq <null>"?
04:24:14 <psygnisfive> but "I paint pink." is different.
04:24:24 <psygnisfive> ihope: no...
04:24:28 <ihope> Oh.
04:24:30 <psygnisfive> where are you getting the null from?
04:24:42 <psygnisfive> pikhq is the second argument to the verb.
04:24:52 <pikhq> Your assertion that paint is binary.
04:24:56 <psygnisfive> it is.
04:25:01 <psygnisfive> "pikhq" is the second argument.
04:25:01 <ihope> You said it's only syntaxtically normal if one of those arguments has a null phonological and thus typographical form.
04:25:07 <ihope> s/x/c/
04:25:07 <pikhq> Care to reformat that into sexp?
04:25:26 <psygnisfive> "pink" in the original sentence is not an argument to the verb.
04:25:44 * pikhq nods
04:25:46 <psygnisfive> well, it could be, depending on your interpretation, but that would make the verb ditransitive.
04:25:48 <pikhq> It's an adjective.
04:25:59 <ihope> In "I have an alarm clock that I painted pink.", "pink" is not an argument to "painted"?
04:26:03 <psygnisfive> if anything, "pink" is an adverbial modifier indicating the result of the painting.
04:26:12 <ihope> Hmm.
04:26:19 <psygnisfive> tho it could alternatively be an argument to a ditransitive
04:26:21 <pikhq> Let's try to make a parse tree out of this mess.
04:26:24 <ihope> "I have a paint color that I painted pikhq".
04:26:26 <psygnisfive> trivial.
04:26:34 <psygnisfive> which framework do you want the parse trees in
04:26:46 <psygnisfive> I can give you Principles and Parameters, as well as Minimalism
04:26:54 <psygnisfive> as well as typical Naive Syntax
04:27:38 <ihope> "I have an alarm clock that I painted pink." That's "have" modified with "I" and "an alarm clock that I painted pink", which is "an alarm clock" modified with "that I painted pink", which is "that" containing "I painted pink", which is "painted" modified with "I" and "pink"?
04:27:53 <ihope> (And "an alarm clock" is "an" containing "clock" modified with "alarm".)
04:27:57 <psygnisfive> no. ish.
04:28:02 <pikhq> I don't care, just stick it in a binary tree. :p
04:28:05 <psygnisfive> modified is the wrong term to use there.
04:28:13 <psygnisfive> pikhq: ok gimme a second.
04:28:25 <ihope> psygnisfive: specified?
04:28:33 <psygnisfive> eh sure. ish.
04:28:34 <psygnisfive> :)
04:28:41 <psygnisfive> I is in a specifier relationship with have
04:28:45 <pikhq> Hmm. Is psygnisfive a linguistics major or some such? :p
04:28:50 <psygnisfive> yes.
04:28:56 <psygnisfive> tho the other uses of modified are wrong as well.
04:29:04 <ihope> All of them?
04:29:07 <pikhq> Whereas the rest of us are mere dabblers (at best).
04:29:08 <psygnisfive> yes.
04:29:14 <ihope> Should they be "specified" as well?
04:29:18 <psygnisfive> give me a moment to do the P&P parse
04:29:21 <psygnisfive> no they shouldnt.
04:29:23 * pikhq nods
04:29:45 <psygnisfive> also
04:29:49 <psygnisfive> object control :D
04:30:14 <psygnisfive> thats the phenomena this sentence exhibits, btw, that makes "I painted it pink" an invalid relative clause ;)
04:31:35 <oerjan> "phenomenon" ;)
04:32:03 * pikhq has fun with his unrestricted grammar.
04:32:28 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:33:01 * oerjan even unrestricted fun more a with _totally_ has grammar
04:34:10 <pikhq> oerjan: I meant 'unrestricted' in the sense that it can only be parsed using a Turing machine, not in the sense of having no rules.
04:34:38 <pikhq> Though actually, I'm not sure: does English have a type 0 grammar?
04:34:39 <oerjan> but you are not a Turing machine. how can you parse it then? :D
04:35:04 <pikhq> I don't parse it.
04:35:09 <pikhq> I do a good impression thereof.
04:35:11 <pikhq> :p
04:35:24 <psygnisfive> [CP [C' [TP [DP [D' [NP [N' [N 'I']]]]] [T' [T <pres>] [VP <I> [V' [V 'have'+pres] [DP{i} [D' [D 'an'] [NP [N' [N 'alarm clock'] [CP [C' [C 'that'] [TP [DP [D' [NP [N' [N 'I']]]]] [T' [T <-ed>] [VP <I> [V' [V' [V 'paint'+'-ed'] PRO{i}] [AdvP [Adv' [Adv [Adj 'pink']]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
04:35:45 <oerjan> while psygnisfive just seemed to fail the Turing Test :D
04:35:58 <psygnisfive> WE ARE ZE ROBOTS
04:36:02 <psygnisfive> DOOT DOOT DOO DEET DOO
04:36:10 <pikhq> No, I think I get what he's doing there. . .
04:36:31 <pikhq> Basically, he's demonstrated knowledge of the formal grammar of English.
04:36:43 <psygnisfive> you asked for a parse! :(
04:36:55 <pikhq> Well, yes.
04:37:00 <psygnisfive> and its a binary tree
04:37:04 * oerjan asks for parsley
04:37:11 <psygnisfive> as all P&P trees are.
04:37:12 <pikhq> I'm surprised that you actaully did it, that's all. :p
04:37:15 <psygnisfive> and all minimalist trees.
04:37:17 <psygnisfive> uh dude
04:37:22 <psygnisfive> ive been doing this for the last year :)
04:37:33 <psygnisfive> you should see what hoops we jumped through in syntax
04:38:15 <pikhq> I'm afraid my knowledge of grammars & syntax is a bit more rudimentary than yours.
04:38:27 <psygnisfive> "John was made to believe that Fido seemed to be jumping through hoops" was a common enough structure
04:38:32 <psygnisfive> or something like that
04:38:33 <pikhq> We in the computer science field tend to make our grammars easy to parse.
04:38:56 <psygnisfive> natural languages might be Type 0 :(
04:39:00 <oerjan> LALR! LALR! LALR!
04:39:02 <pikhq> I don't think I've seen a programming language with grammar harder to parse than type 1.
04:39:23 <pikhq> And yes, oerjan: most programming languages are type 2.
04:39:24 <pikhq> ;)
04:39:29 <psygnisfive> tho i suspect its only Type 0 thanks to post-linearization techniques. maybe.
04:40:02 <psygnisfive> next ill give you the Minimalist parse
04:40:17 <oerjan> OM
04:42:46 <oerjan> Now that was certainly minimalist
04:44:07 <psygnisfive> [CP [TP [DP [NP 'I']] [T' [T pres] [VP <I> [V 'have'] [DP [D 'an'] [NP [N 'alarm clock'] [CP [C 'that'] [TP [T pst] [DP [NP 'I']] [VP <I> [V' [V' [V 'painted'] PRO{i}] [AdvP [Adj 'pink']]]]]]]]]]]]
04:44:59 <psygnisfive> left out is the null complement in the highest CP
04:45:35 <pikhq> And I thought I'd never see something geekier than drawing out a parse tree for some Def-BF code by hand. :p
04:45:41 <psygnisfive> tho given the relative clarity of what each segment is, the minimalist tree would often just be
04:46:45 <psygnisfive> btw that was slightly wrong, sorry.
04:48:20 <psygnisfive> [CP [TP [DP I] [T' pres [VP <I> [V' have [DP an [NP alarm_clock [CP that [TP I [pst [VP <I> [V' [painted PRO{i}] pink]]]]]]]]]]]
04:48:30 <psygnisfive> thats closer i think to a normal minimalist markup
04:48:38 <psygnisfive> tho we'd just use trees that make it clearer
04:49:52 <psygnisfive> pikhq: if you want to see the HEIGHT of fucking geekery
04:50:00 <psygnisfive> you should come and sit in on one of my ling classes
04:50:30 <psygnisfive> ive made nerdy linguistics tee-shirts that only nerdy linguists like me and my friends would get
04:50:47 <psygnisfive> speaking of which, i need to work on some designs for them :O
04:52:51 <psygnisfive> btw, Naive Syntax parse: [S [NP [N 'I']] [VP [V 'have'] [NP [D 'an'] [N 'alarm clock'] [CP [C 'that'] [S [NP [N 'I']] [VP [V 'painted'] <it> [AdvP [Adj 'pink']]]]]]]]
04:53:17 <psygnisfive> which you'll notice is NOT binary branching
04:53:35 <pikhq> psygnisfive: You want the height of geekery?
04:53:45 <pikhq> Keep in mind that I have yet to entire college.
04:53:46 <pikhq> :p
04:54:19 * oerjan blinks
04:54:36 <oerjan> don't _do_ that to linguistics majors. they might lock up.
04:55:01 <pikhq> oerjan: Don't do what?
04:55:07 <oerjan> "entire"
04:55:12 <pikhq> Oh.
04:55:15 <pikhq> *FUCK*.
04:55:18 <pikhq> s/entire/enter/.
04:55:24 <pikhq> It's nearly midnight here; forgive me.
04:55:40 <psygnisfive> oerjan, much to your chagrin, i'm sure, most linguists are not prescriptivists, nor pedants about spelling
04:55:43 <psygnisfive> or grammar
04:55:54 <pikhq> Most programmers are, however.
04:55:56 <psygnisfive> infact, we make fun of those people.
04:55:59 <pikhq> (by necessity)
04:56:08 <psygnisfive> sometimes with sticks.
04:56:10 <psygnisfive> or bats.
04:56:12 <psygnisfive> metal bats.
04:56:30 <pikhq> I was imagining you beating people with flying rodents, actually.
04:56:38 <pikhq> Much more amusing thought.
04:56:40 <psygnisfive> thats what im talking about.
04:56:49 <oerjan> you _are_ however pedantic about people making fun of you, i see :D
04:56:54 <psygnisfive> i use this: http://members.wri.com/jeffb/transformers/NightscreamBat.jpg
04:57:32 <psygnisfive> i do that merely because its a common misconception that linguists are school marm grammarians
04:57:57 <psygnisfive> which is about as reasonable as saying that haskellians are fans of GOTO.
04:58:21 <pikhq> I actually think of linguists in a bit of a more positive light.
04:58:37 <pikhq> Probably because, if I weren't doing math/computer science, I'd probably be a linguistics major.
04:58:50 <oerjan> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=marm
04:58:50 <psygnisfive> you could be both/troth
04:59:00 <pikhq> I'm already doing a dual major.
04:59:10 <pikhq> I'm not *that* insane.
04:59:20 <pikhq> (some would debate that)
04:59:24 <psygnisfive> im probably going to do CS+Ling when i get to grad school
04:59:27 <psygnisfive> possible +Math
04:59:29 * oerjan debates it
04:59:39 <pikhq> oerjan: No fair!
04:59:42 <psygnisfive> mainly because, lets be honest
04:59:44 <pikhq> You've seen my code.
04:59:56 <psygnisfive> Math, CS, and Linguistics are, in the theoretical realms of each, identical in many ways.
05:00:20 <pikhq> CS and linguistics' overlaps are fairly obvious.
05:00:30 <psygnisfive> i mean, in theory of computation, whats the most common way of ranking computation power?
05:00:34 <psygnisfive> Chomsky hierarchy.
05:00:39 <pikhq> Especially automata theory & grammar theory. . .
05:00:39 <psygnisfive> Chomsky is....
05:00:43 <psygnisfive> a theoretical syntactician.
05:01:07 <psygnisfive> also a political writer.
05:01:15 <psygnisfive> anarchosyndicalist, in case you were wondering.
05:01:49 <psygnisfive> theres this website that does this thing where you put in your major and click through various scenarios of The Future
05:01:51 <pikhq> Anarchy? Bah.
05:01:54 <psygnisfive> making decisions along the way
05:02:08 <pikhq> Fuck that: cryptoanarchy if you must be without rule. :p
05:02:10 <psygnisfive> one of them talks about going into CompLing
05:02:27 <psygnisfive> and how any computational linguist can whoop your ass when it comes to both language AND computer science
05:02:35 <psygnisfive> cryptoanarchy?
05:02:43 <psygnisfive> so you're an anarchist but you pretend to be a republican?
05:03:16 <pikhq> Cryptoanarchy refers to the usage of cryptography to create an unruled network.
05:03:33 <psygnisfive> thats a weird use of the crypto- prefix
05:03:38 <psygnisfive> given that all other uses mean hidden
05:03:53 <pikhq> It's meant as a pun.
05:04:02 <pikhq> Feel free to groan.
05:04:12 <psygnisfive> oh i see
05:04:12 <psygnisfive> because its crytpoed
05:04:12 <psygnisfive> its hidden from prying eyes
05:04:12 <psygnisfive> haw.
05:04:12 <psygnisfive> :P
05:04:25 <psygnisfive> all of my linguistics tee-shirts are puns. :)
05:04:31 <psygnisfive> for instance
05:04:39 <psygnisfive> a picture of a log cabin.
05:04:44 <psygnisfive> get it?
05:04:46 <psygnisfive> its a...
05:04:48 <psygnisfive> TREE STRUCTURE
05:04:50 <psygnisfive> BWAHAHAHAHAHA
05:04:50 <psygnisfive> XD
05:04:53 <psygnisfive> *ahem*
05:04:57 * oerjan groans
05:05:07 <lilja> :)
05:05:14 <oerjan> hi lilja
05:05:17 <psygnisfive> see? lilja likes it.
05:05:23 <lilja> h, hey
05:05:25 <psygnisfive> im going to send her one of the t-shirts
05:05:25 <lilja> and bye
05:05:27 <psygnisfive> when i make them.
05:05:29 <lilja> I'm going to sleep
05:05:32 <psygnisfive> night you.
05:05:41 <lilja> it's already bright outside :\
05:05:47 <psygnisfive> haha
05:05:58 <lilja> 7 am
05:06:00 <psygnisfive> when i was in europe it was staying light until 10pm
05:06:00 <lilja> damn
05:06:01 <oerjan> i'm a frayed that pun was a bit of a stretch to me...
05:06:02 <psygnisfive> it was awesome
05:06:44 <psygnisfive> im also going to make a shirt with 7 thumb tacks painted on it, large-like
05:07:00 <psygnisfive> each with the name of a different one of the seven deadly sins on it
05:07:00 <lilja> anyways, good night or something
05:07:06 <psygnisfive> get it? :D
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05:07:30 <oerjan> argh! the pain!
05:07:37 <psygnisfive> sin tacks! :D
05:07:54 <psygnisfive> everyone ive told that to has had to think about it, and still didnt get it
05:08:02 <psygnisfive> except this one girl, whos my best friend at school
05:08:05 <psygnisfive> and she was like
05:08:08 <psygnisfive> "Sin tacks! :D"
05:08:15 <psygnisfive> shes crazy like me. :D
05:08:17 <psygnisfive> its great.
05:08:22 <psygnisfive> if i were straight i'd marry her
05:08:52 <psygnisfive> she's the only one who gets me :(
05:14:21 <psygnisfive> i need a book on computation theory
05:14:22 <psygnisfive> someone give
05:14:25 <psygnisfive> i know you have it!
05:14:26 <psygnisfive> give!!!
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05:23:52 <psygnisfive> damnit, its too quiet
05:33:31 <pikhq> Indeed.
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09:42:43 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ItsQuietTooQuiet
09:43:08 <oerjan> (standard tvtropes warnings apply)
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11:10:20 <tusho> hi
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13:22:00 <oklofok> 06:21… psygnisfive: you cant use a pronoun to refer back to the noun that the enclosing clause modifies. <<< what? you can't say "i like sheep that take care of themselves"?
13:22:27 <tusho> no, that's illegal to say
13:22:27 <tusho> sorry
13:22:31 <tusho> we'll arrest you if you do
13:22:49 <oklofok> i'm pretty sure the weirdness in ihope's sentence was just that you should have a sentence without a subject as the thing after "that", and the thing "that" refers to will then be the subject.
13:23:03 <oklofok> and here, "I" was the subject
13:38:15 <oklofok> in lalna i combined focus and that kind of referring so that you'd do (i like (sheep take care of themselves)), and for the inner sentence put focus on sheep
13:39:08 <oklofok> this is the same thing you often see in oklotalk (although of course just because objects normally behave like that, you couldn't extract "care" from that sentence in oklotalk)
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14:58:28 <tusho> oklofok
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15:13:42 <oklofok> o
15:14:11 <oklofok> tusho
15:14:27 <tusho> o oklofok
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17:34:52 <deveah> Oi
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17:44:49 <tusho> deveah: hi
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17:51:50 <lilja> okokokokokokoko
17:56:00 <deveah> i see most esoteric ppl are interested in roguelikes too
18:01:14 <AnMaster> nethack!
18:01:37 <AnMaster> deveah, and why do you see that I wonder?
18:02:31 <deveah> zzo38, for example, made a roguelike
18:02:47 <tusho> yeah but that's zzo
18:02:50 <tusho> he does everything
18:03:00 <deveah> I made and am making roguelikes and I'm an esoterikker too
18:03:14 <lilja> o
18:03:15 <tusho> esoteriKKK
18:03:18 <deveah> what everything?
18:04:24 <deveah> tusho, when I was your age, I did almost everything too :D
18:04:34 <tusho> zzo38 is ..
18:04:36 <tusho> i dunno how old he is
18:05:21 <deveah> try a bit of everything before you're too old to do anything :)
18:05:59 <lilja> opopopopopopo
18:06:02 <lilja> opopopopopopo
18:06:12 <lilja> omg
18:06:19 <lilja> wrong channel :D
18:07:01 <deveah> omg you can really use more than two letters in one line!
18:07:32 <lilja> mm-hmm
18:07:45 <AnMaster> hm... you wouldn't believe this, but it is true, I just met a blind user who enjoyed flightsimulators today....
18:07:53 <AnMaster> that's kind of crazy
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18:09:25 <tusho> deveah: shut up, okoing is sacred
18:09:41 <AnMaster> koko too?
18:09:45 <AnMaster> kokokoko*
18:09:46 <tusho> yes
18:09:48 <AnMaster> ;P
18:09:50 <AnMaster> hm
18:09:50 <tusho> it's a variant!
18:09:55 <tusho> just add a k to the beginning
18:09:57 <AnMaster> anananan?
18:10:11 <AnMaster> and there is:
18:10:15 <AnMaster> tutututututututut too
18:10:18 <tusho> no
18:10:20 <tusho> unacceptable
18:10:25 <AnMaster> tutututututu?
18:10:59 <tusho> no
18:11:04 <lilja> utututututututututu
18:11:46 <deveah> tusho: okoing?!
18:12:00 <tusho> deveah: you cannot be told what okoing is
18:12:03 <tusho> you must experience it yourself
18:12:10 <tusho> and oklopol is not here for a demonstration
18:12:21 <tusho> you will gain enlightenment one day, of that I am sure
18:14:48 <AnMaster> odd I have seen oklopol quite a few times and I never seen okoing before
18:15:01 <AnMaster> deveah, are you new here?
18:15:38 <deveah> no, I've been here before a few times
18:16:29 <deveah> why?
18:23:01 <AnMaster> k
18:23:06 <AnMaster> didn't remember the nick
18:28:30 <deveah> cya
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18:35:43 <psygnisfive> oklopol: not i said usually.
18:36:18 <psygnisfive> i oversimplified it when i said that yesterday
18:36:44 <lilja> oklopol is gone
18:36:55 <psygnisfive> oklofok*
18:37:39 <lilja> he also :)
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18:37:46 <psygnisfive> lilja*
18:38:04 <lilja> hrrr
18:38:25 <psygnisfive> but in this specific example, the reason you can't actually use "it" is because it's the wrong pronoun
18:38:47 <psygnisfive> the RIGHT pronoun is PRO which has no spoken form.
18:39:46 <psygnisfive> or atleast thats the P&P/Minimalist interpretation :D
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19:18:28 <pikhq> *, I'm sorry about the delay on Def-BF. . .
19:18:44 <pikhq> As my excuse, I offer this: Half-Life 2 kicks some major ass.
19:30:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, not valid
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19:33:42 <tusho> AnMaster: Very valid.
19:34:10 <AnMaster> I disagree
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19:34:28 <tusho> AnMaster: So it's not OK to enjoy a game a lot and therefore play it instead of working on an esolang for a bit?
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19:35:00 <AnMaster> I didn't say that
19:35:08 <tusho> what did you say then?
19:35:16 <AnMaster> "<AnMaster> pikhq, not valid"
19:35:18 <AnMaster> to be exact
19:35:32 <tusho> and your intended meaning?
19:35:37 <tusho> I can't extract another one
19:35:53 <AnMaster> well that is a different question that I will be happy to answer
19:36:18 <AnMaster> I meaning was that "half life 2"
19:36:25 <AnMaster> due to not being open source ;P
19:36:26 * AnMaster runs
19:36:36 <tusho> yes, I'm aware you're an unreasonable zealot
19:36:40 <tusho> you didn't have to point that out again
19:36:40 <oklopol> :D
19:36:41 <AnMaster> s/I meaning/my meaning/
19:36:48 <tusho> you demonstrate it daily..
19:37:17 <AnMaster> + another reason was pure selfishness
19:37:17 <AnMaster> I'd like to see Def-BF
19:37:18 <AnMaster> and play with it
19:37:20 <AnMaster> it sounds great
19:37:26 <oklopol> i'm less afraid of open source nowadays
19:37:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, where are the the specs on Def-BF?
19:37:36 <AnMaster> if you make no progress I may implement it myself
19:37:43 <AnMaster> so I'd like to see the specs
19:38:00 <pikhq> http://www.nonlogic.org/dump/text/1215028173.html
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19:38:41 <AnMaster> % jump to absolute address in code
19:38:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, does 0 equal first code cell?
19:39:14 <AnMaster> so the program is loaded starting at 0x0?
19:39:39 <AnMaster> and what parameter does % take?
19:40:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, that spec doesn't define some quite important stuff needed to make an implementation
19:40:31 <tusho> AnMaster: Because, guess what, they were implementing it -themselves-
19:40:44 <AnMaster> like: where does the constant ? wants appear from
19:40:54 <tusho> I don't think they were thinking "WHAT IF PIKHQ IS PLAYING HALF LIFE 2. WE'D BETTER LET OTHER PEOPLE IMPLEMENT IT"
19:41:01 <AnMaster> tusho, indeed I agree
19:41:11 <AnMaster> this is a reasonable explanation
19:41:23 <AnMaster> but shouldn't ESO have pointed out this issue?
19:41:28 <AnMaster> you are a member of ESO
19:41:32 <oklopol> :)
19:42:06 <oklopol> it's been an active topic on #eso for the past few days
19:42:16 * oklopol continues his monologue
19:42:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, ok I can see one big issue
19:42:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, the pointers are 8 bit?
19:42:32 <AnMaster> to fit in a cell?
19:42:39 <oklopol> always with the exact sizess :)
19:42:41 <oklopol> *sizes
19:43:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, well how large are the pointers, and how large are the cells?
19:43:31 <pikhq> System word.
19:43:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, so could be 64-bit or 32-bit or such? do you have some standard library to define bitwise operations and so on?
19:44:04 <AnMaster> a standard library would be great
19:44:14 <pikhq> A standard library is implicit. . .
19:44:18 <AnMaster> because a compiler could optimize those into C function implemented in the compiler
19:44:29 <pikhq> Also, note that functions are pass by reference.
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19:44:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, interesting, I may code a compiler to C code, could be fun
19:45:09 <AnMaster> not today, got to leave soon, but maybe the next few days
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19:47:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, where is the standard library specs?
19:47:05 <AnMaster> are*
19:47:36 <AnMaster> and where are you working on def-bf, who is on the standard committee
19:47:39 <AnMaster> ;P
19:47:55 <AnMaster> tusho, I seek to join ESO
19:48:00 <tusho> oh god.
19:48:14 <AnMaster> where should I apply for a membership?
19:48:22 <tusho> oh god.
19:48:41 <oklopol> :D
19:48:44 <AnMaster> well I will ask ais when I see him next then
19:48:50 <AnMaster> he may be able to tell
19:48:50 <tusho> actually i'm in charge
19:48:55 <tusho> ais just has sudoers :P
19:48:58 <tusho> but, #ESO
19:49:03 <AnMaster> is +m...
19:49:07 <AnMaster> can't really ask there then
19:51:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, how can a def-bf program find out stuff about the system, say how much memory exists?
19:51:56 <AnMaster> and what should happen when it runs out of memory?
19:51:59 <AnMaster> exception tables?
19:52:36 <AnMaster> what should an implementation do once it can't allocate more memory for the program, or on a division by zero and so on
19:54:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, how are pointers to ? and such encoded? as hexdecimal? with a leading 0x?
19:54:20 <AnMaster> there are lots of holes in that standard I'm afraid to say :(
19:54:40 <tusho> AnMaster: esolangs aren't known for their completeness
19:55:12 <AnMaster> tusho, funge being an exception (yes 98 had weaknesses but far from as much)
19:55:18 <AnMaster> ?
19:55:27 <tusho> funge-93 is pretty incomplete.
19:55:33 <AnMaster> yes it is
19:55:37 <tusho> it's not surprising
19:55:40 <tusho> because it doesn't really matter.
19:56:03 <AnMaster> so it is surprising that the 98 one is as complete as it is?
19:56:17 <tusho> funge-98 is just an anti-tarpit
19:56:44 <AnMaster> tusho, agreed!
19:56:59 <AnMaster> which is kind of fun too
20:04:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, are # and ; for the data or instruction pointers?
20:05:04 <AnMaster> in fact I just got an idea, I could easily implement the tire 1 (basic commands) in bash
20:05:10 * AnMaster watches tusho
20:05:22 <tusho> i'm numb by now.
20:05:22 <tusho> sorry.
20:05:35 <AnMaster> calm down, I won't
20:05:51 <AnMaster> but you remember my brainfuck interpreter in bash? :P
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20:13:56 <pikhq> Which means questions such as "what should it do when it can't malloc any more" are fruitless: that is OS defined. . .
20:13:56 <pikhq> And possibly defined from within Def-BF.
20:19:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, but assume you make a version that compiles to C code
20:19:22 <AnMaster> that should run under a hosted environment
20:20:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, for a system programming language , and . make no sense
20:20:55 <AnMaster> they wouldn't be defined
20:20:58 <AnMaster> stdio I mean
20:21:07 <AnMaster> def-bf itself would define stdio
20:21:18 <pikhq> I'm assuming that they would call out to a couple of stubs.
20:21:23 <pikhq> BTW, this is not my spec. ;)
20:21:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, how do you plan to implement it then if you don't know?
20:22:08 <pikhq> Don't know what?
20:22:16 <AnMaster> <pikhq> I'm assuming that they would call out to a couple of stubs.
20:22:27 <AnMaster> "assuming" implies "not knowing for sure"
20:22:28 <pikhq> That's an implementation-defined detail. ;)
20:22:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about format for pointers?
20:22:53 <AnMaster> as in ?
20:22:58 <AnMaster> 0x123?
20:23:01 <AnMaster> or?
20:24:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, also how can you make sure you don't collide with wherever the the stacks and variables are stored?
20:28:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, well?
20:29:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:34:25 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:37:19 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> pikhq, also how can you make sure you don't collide with wherever the the stacks and variables are stored?
20:37:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, I never got an answer before you timed out
20:37:36 <pikhq> Because I never saw that. ;)
20:37:40 <AnMaster> ah
20:37:41 <AnMaster> tell me then
20:37:44 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> as in ?
20:37:44 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> 0x123?
20:37:44 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> or?
20:37:54 <AnMaster> for the <AnMaster> pikhq, what about format for pointers?
20:38:02 <AnMaster> didn't saw an answer to that either
20:38:12 <pikhq> First, read up on assembly. ;)
20:38:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, well this is about Def-BF
20:38:29 <AnMaster> I need to know what format it is stored in
20:38:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, and yes I know AT&T syntax quite well
20:38:50 <AnMaster> intel syntax? not at all
20:38:51 <pikhq> ('how can you make sure you don't collide with whereever the stack and variables are stored?' Careful coding.)
20:39:08 <pikhq> As for the format for arguments to ? ? Ask Rodger.
20:39:08 <AnMaster> so the implementation got to define where it will put variables in other words
20:39:09 <AnMaster> ok
20:39:17 <AnMaster> who isn't here...
20:39:19 <AnMaster> right
20:39:26 <AnMaster> and I got to sleep in about an hour
20:39:28 <pikhq> His spec.
20:39:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, you will need to ask as well
20:39:42 <AnMaster> once you get around to implementing
20:39:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, I plan to do this as two tires
20:40:03 <AnMaster> tire 2 will be a preprocessor
20:40:13 <AnMaster> that can be reused by different implementations
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20:40:28 <AnMaster> it will just take the "High-level programming:" and turn it into "Basic commands:"
20:40:46 <AnMaster> I guess you could reuse that as well, but I will implement tire 1 first
20:40:56 <pikhq> Which is great and all, except that the high-level programming is a bit easier to futz with in some cases. :p
20:41:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, eh?
20:41:19 <AnMaster> you mean you don't separate the layers?
20:41:27 <tusho> OMG!!! HE DOESN"T SEPERATE THE LAYERS!
20:41:28 <pikhq> To implement that preprocessor, you would need to write your own linker.
20:41:32 <tusho> LET'S MAIM PIKHQ!
20:41:34 * tusho maims pikhq
20:41:36 <AnMaster> tusho, hm?
20:41:50 <pikhq> Believe me when I say you don't want to write your own linker.
20:41:57 <AnMaster> tusho, it was no criticism
20:42:14 <pikhq> Especially if you want Def-BF on more than one OS.
20:42:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, in my implementation this will compile into a virtual machine more or less
20:42:29 <pikhq> Bah.
20:42:29 <AnMaster> because the specs doesn't say anything about other stuff
20:42:46 <AnMaster> no it will be native C
20:42:56 <oklopol> i don't believe in assembly
20:42:59 <AnMaster> but it will assume there is nothing else outside the Def-BF code
20:43:02 <AnMaster> thanks oklopol
20:43:05 <oklopol> has anyone even ever seen it, really? no.
20:43:10 <tusho> i agree
20:43:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: no, not thanks
20:43:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, I have seen it
20:43:15 <tusho> I'm aassemblist
20:43:19 <pikhq> My idea involves compiling to x86 assembly already in protected mode with the A20 line set up right. . .
20:43:20 <oklopol> you don't wanna thank me for this.
20:43:20 <tusho> AnMaster: Ha.
20:43:24 <tusho> You call that fuzzy vision assembly?
20:43:34 <tusho> You have no proof.
20:43:44 <tusho> However, pure logic leads us to the conclusion that THERE IS NO ASSEMBLY.
20:43:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, GAS syntax? ;P
20:43:48 <pikhq> And for anything else that the Def-BF code needs to do for an OS? Well, that's why we have assembly.
20:43:51 <tusho> Belief in assembly counts as a _DELUSION_.
20:43:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, intel syntax is horrible
20:44:03 <oklopol> anyway, assembly is more like those quantum physics. they might seem to explain the phenomena, but no, something that weird simply can't be the truth
20:44:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: Intel CPUs are terrible.
20:44:18 <pikhq> ;p
20:44:21 <tusho> oklopol: actually I think assembly is more like god
20:44:25 <tusho> not in that it's awesome
20:44:27 <tusho> but in that it
20:44:28 <tusho> DOESN'T EXIST
20:44:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, I got AMD
20:44:33 <tusho> assembly just does not exist.
20:44:44 <pikhq> AMD's a good implementation of a crap architecture. :p
20:44:45 <tusho> AnMaster: Grammar correction - 'I have an AMD.'
20:44:50 <oklopol> indeed.
20:44:52 <AnMaster> tusho, thanks
20:45:00 <tusho> Ironically, I made an error there.
20:45:01 <AnMaster> but...
20:45:01 <AnMaster> is
20:45:05 <tusho> Should have been 'grammatical correction'.
20:45:05 <AnMaster> I HAZ AMD?
20:45:06 <AnMaster> correct?
20:45:08 <AnMaster> tusho, ?
20:45:11 <tusho> AnMaster: Only in LOLCODE.
20:45:14 <AnMaster> ah
20:45:15 <AnMaster> right
20:45:29 <AnMaster> or if you are a cat, but right then it's LOLCODE anyway
20:45:30 <oklopol> "i got amd" is valid practical english
20:45:43 <tusho> oklopol: no. not really.
20:45:45 <tusho> it's grating
20:46:09 <oklopol> grating?
20:46:14 <tusho> yes.
20:46:17 <tusho> uncomfortable to read.
20:46:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway I don't see why you can't separate the tires?
20:46:59 <AnMaster> btw you will find this horrible tusho
20:47:02 <pikhq> Because I don't want my own implementation of ld for each and every CPU this will run on. . . Or each and every OS, for that matter.
20:47:03 <AnMaster> I'm sorry tusho
20:47:05 <AnMaster> but
20:47:05 <tusho> I imagine so.
20:47:07 <oklopol> tusho: well sure, sure, but i think that's more the kind of error native ppl make
20:47:09 <AnMaster> I will emit C code
20:47:13 <AnMaster> one function
20:47:14 <tusho> So?
20:47:16 <AnMaster> with lots of goto
20:47:19 <tusho> So?
20:47:19 <AnMaster> as jumps
20:47:22 <AnMaster> what?!
20:47:23 <tusho> So?
20:47:29 <AnMaster> oh my
20:47:31 <tusho> AnMaster: That's how my Underload compiler worked...
20:47:35 <AnMaster> right
20:47:40 <AnMaster> for a compiler it is ok I guess
20:47:43 <tusho> *You're* the one paranoid about C being all nice and clean.
20:47:46 <tusho> brb
20:47:59 <AnMaster> for loops I will try to output while loops or so
20:48:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: Compiling to C in this case is no easier than compiling to assembly, though.
20:48:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes it is for me, since my asm is rusty
20:48:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, and two implementations can't be worse than one
20:49:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, where are the specs for the standard library btw?
20:50:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, does the high level code have strings?
20:50:28 <AnMaster> as in string literals
20:50:44 <AnMaster> the standard doesn't say anything about it
20:50:49 <pikhq> There is none specified yet.
20:50:50 <oklopol> string strang strung
20:50:52 <AnMaster> and I guess I can assume the standard is complete
20:51:06 <oklopol> du bist für den glendern gestrongen
20:51:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, well I guess the lower level part of it is complete?
20:51:49 * pikhq nods
20:54:45 <AnMaster> and for location of stacks and direction of growing, I'll make that command line arguments
20:54:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh and my C implementation will be 64-bit clean ;P
20:57:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, want to see my quick notes for implementation?
20:57:30 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/HCfcDL41.html
20:57:51 <pikhq> But my assembly implementation will be suitable for OS development.
20:58:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, but the standard says nothing about that
21:02:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, so?
21:07:06 <tusho> bakkk
21:08:05 <tusho> AnMaster: Def-BF is intended for kernel development.
21:08:34 <AnMaster> tusho, nothing in the standard saying so :P
21:08:47 <tusho> I guess you haven't been following Def-BF then.
21:08:52 <tusho> The only thing that makes it interesting is kernel devleopment.
21:08:54 <AnMaster> I have
21:09:05 <AnMaster> but I take the standard as the ultimate reference
21:09:21 <AnMaster> tusho, btw I need some advice, I'm thinking about buying a laptop, what hardware would you go for?
21:09:25 <AnMaster> I need decent 3D
21:09:30 <tusho> AnMaster: Apple.
21:09:31 <tusho> :)
21:09:32 <AnMaster> think high end, flight simulator
21:09:35 <AnMaster> tusho, not apple
21:09:44 <AnMaster> I need something I can afford
21:09:57 <tusho> AnMaster: MacBooks are pretty cheap, but yeah, I don't think they have good 3D.
21:09:59 <tusho> How about ThinkPads?
21:10:04 <tusho> I've heard good things about them.
21:10:10 <AnMaster> tusho, I got no idea, I never bought a laptop before
21:10:12 <tusho> (I actually said Apple to infuriate you :p)
21:10:18 <tusho> AnMaster: Well ThinkPads can come with linux, iirc
21:10:25 <AnMaster> I can install linux myself
21:10:29 <AnMaster> that isn't an issue
21:10:32 <tusho> AnMaster: What I mean is that they're linux friendly.
21:10:37 <AnMaster> true
21:10:43 <tusho> I saw a good wiki about them once
21:10:44 <tusho> lemme find it
21:10:49 <tusho> AnMaster: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkWiki
21:10:57 <tusho> has loads of details on all the models - maybe something good
21:12:13 <AnMaster> hm
21:12:29 <AnMaster> needs wifi with WPA2 (AES), ability to run flightgear, a CD drive, a decent screen, a large harddrive, not to expensive and not too heavy...
21:12:43 <AnMaster> can't get 7 of 7 I bet...
21:12:48 <tusho> AnMaster: Pick 3.
21:12:52 <tusho> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkWiki
21:12:54 <tusho> Go fish. :p
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21:19:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, where will your implementation store the stacks?
21:19:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, somewhere in the memory I assume?
21:19:17 <AnMaster> but where?
21:21:04 <pikhq> ss:0
21:21:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, ss is?
21:21:29 <pikhq> The stack segment.
21:21:34 <AnMaster> segment...
21:21:46 <tusho> <AnMaster> segment...
21:21:48 <tusho> Kill. Kill. Kill.
21:21:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, that is something not specified by the standard againt
21:21:55 <AnMaster> again*
21:22:01 <pikhq> No, of course not.
21:22:04 <tusho> AnMaster: Dude, it's IMPLEMENTATION-DEFINED.
21:22:09 <tusho> Plus, that would make it non-portable.
21:22:11 <tusho> I thought you hated that?
21:22:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, but doesn't x86 share a stack for calling and for data?
21:22:22 <AnMaster> and data pointer stack would be separate
21:22:28 <AnMaster> "%/: and #/; both operate on their own stacks"
21:22:35 <AnMaster> to quote from the standard
21:22:41 <pikhq> Your point being?
21:22:46 <pikhq> :p
21:22:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, that you need 2 stacks
21:22:55 <pikhq> Fair 'nough.
21:22:59 <AnMaster> so it doesn't answer my question
21:22:59 <pikhq> There's also ds:0.
21:23:07 <AnMaster> data segment right?
21:23:12 * pikhq nods
21:23:31 <AnMaster> anyway is this segment as in "segments vs. paging"?
21:23:32 <pikhq> I'm afraid my compiler won't work well in a flat memory space. ;)
21:23:43 <AnMaster> I plan to implement a flat memory space you see
21:23:45 <pikhq> Yes.
21:23:58 <AnMaster> because that is what everyone does these days
21:24:09 <AnMaster> does any "real" OS use segmentation?
21:24:15 <pikhq> DOS.
21:24:16 <pikhq> :p
21:24:26 <AnMaster> well "modern and real"
21:24:36 <Deewiant> DOS was a hoax!
21:24:41 <pikhq> Actually, I think OpenBSD uses it to emulate the NX bit.
21:25:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, but it doesn't use it if system got PAE I bet?
21:25:18 <AnMaster> where you can have NX iirc
21:25:28 <AnMaster> or is that only 64-bit?
21:25:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, however I would like to see your compiler working in a flat memory model
21:25:54 <pikhq> Not all PAE processors support NX.
21:26:01 <AnMaster> ah right
21:26:22 <pikhq> For example: everything newer than a Pentium and older than an Athlon 64.
21:26:30 <AnMaster> right
21:26:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, my CPU got NX anyway
21:26:47 <AnMaster> it is a 64-bit sempron
21:26:51 <AnMaster> running a 64-bit OS
21:28:29 <tusho> AnMaster: my CPU *has* NX
21:28:37 <AnMaster> tusho, yes and?
21:28:45 <tusho> AnMaster: Grammatical fix.
21:28:51 <AnMaster> argh
21:28:52 <AnMaster> right
21:28:57 <tusho> I don't think I've seen AnMaster use 'got' correctly yet, actually, so he could just replace 'got' with 'has' all the time :-P
21:28:59 <AnMaster> tusho, it is how it is said in Swedish
21:29:03 <AnMaster> it is easy to mis-say
21:29:05 <tusho> AnMaster: i guessed
21:29:25 <AnMaster> so you got it?
21:29:26 <AnMaster> ;P
21:29:33 <AnMaster> or rather
21:29:36 <AnMaster> so you has it?
21:29:38 <AnMaster> right?
21:29:44 <AnMaster> ;P;Å
21:29:46 <tusho> AnMaster: in which context
21:29:47 <AnMaster> ;P;P*
21:29:56 <AnMaster> tusho, that "it is is how it is said in Swedish"
21:30:00 <tusho> ah
21:30:01 <tusho> heh
21:30:30 <oklopol> what is all this low level weirdness on my #esoteric
21:30:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, Def-BF
21:30:54 <AnMaster> to low or not to low...
21:31:37 <oklopol> AnMaster: be careful when answering me, i'm rarely as clueless as i seem to be :D
21:32:01 <oklopol> i'm usually just making an obscure statement for no reason whatsoever.
21:32:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway my implementation will follow the standard as defined currently
21:32:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, apart from further information on format of ? operand
21:32:41 * oklopol implements def-bf in python
21:32:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, great
21:32:47 <AnMaster> do it!
21:32:51 <tusho> AnMaster: I don't really think he cares much about your implementation; he seems to be interested in it for the kernel development
21:32:53 <AnMaster> I will implement tomorrow
21:32:54 <AnMaster> to late today
21:32:59 <oklopol> i won't :P i have enough projects already :D
21:33:01 <tusho> which is the only interesting aspect, I find
21:33:03 <AnMaster> tusho, I realize that
21:33:05 <AnMaster> realise*
21:33:21 <AnMaster> however the linux kernel is in C
21:33:23 <AnMaster> so what?
21:33:49 <AnMaster> actually I can see how to keep the layers apart and support functions in the lower layer
21:33:54 <AnMaster> so you can get a lot of C functions
21:33:58 <AnMaster> as the result
21:34:06 <tusho> AnMaster: The linux kernel has hefty asm.
21:34:11 <AnMaster> I know that
21:34:17 <AnMaster> but the majority is in C
21:34:23 <tusho> Not the most important parts.
21:34:24 <AnMaster> in device drivers and such
21:34:34 <AnMaster> only the arch specific stuff includes asm really
21:34:46 <AnMaster> for obvious reasons...
21:35:06 <AnMaster> tusho, because the linux kernel is portable
21:35:15 <tusho> yes
21:35:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, an idea: separate the target specific code from the generic code
21:36:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, to make it easy to generate, say x86_64 code or ppc code
21:36:34 <pikhq> Well, yes; that's just fairly standard frontend/backend stuff.
21:36:44 <AnMaster> just make sure to do it that way
21:36:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, you could even make a C backend I guess
21:37:05 <pikhq> Trvially.
21:37:10 <pikhq> Trivially, rather.
21:37:14 <AnMaster> that could be run as the kernel?
21:37:20 <AnMaster> as in linked into a kernel
21:37:24 <AnMaster> + some glue asm
21:37:43 <AnMaster> or some glue C and run in userspace?
21:37:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is a good reason for that too
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21:38:04 <AnMaster> debugging in user space is easier
21:38:06 <AnMaster> than in kernel space
21:38:35 <pikhq> Bochs is a godsend for kernel debugging.
21:39:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, still user space is easier
21:39:18 <edwardk> a random aside, is anyone here in the Seattle area?
21:39:35 <AnMaster> edwardk, is that US?
21:39:35 <oklopol> yes!
21:39:37 <oklopol> well no.
21:39:39 <pikhq> Not I.
21:39:52 <oklopol> yeah is seattle in that us everyone keeps talking about?
21:39:53 <pikhq> I'm in Boston.
21:40:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, is that in US then?
21:40:13 <pikhq> Yes.
21:40:19 <AnMaster> if I said I was close to Hallsberg
21:40:25 <AnMaster> what country would that imply?
21:40:30 <edwardk> pikhq: heh, we should hit a bar or something some time when I'm back there.
21:40:30 <AnMaster> I bet most wouldn't know
21:40:30 <pikhq> UK.
21:40:32 <AnMaster> yet...
21:40:37 <AnMaster> all assume we know of US
21:40:38 <pikhq> edwardk: Underage.
21:40:39 <oklopol> AnMaster: swedish
21:40:40 <AnMaster> how unfair is that?
21:40:42 <AnMaster> quite
21:40:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, good
21:40:47 <oklopol> *sweden
21:40:50 <edwardk> pikhq: fair nuff
21:40:52 <AnMaster> and pikhq was wrong
21:40:56 <tusho> AnMaster: The USA is an economic and political superpower and one of the largest and most populated nations in the world.
21:40:59 <pikhq> It was a random guess.
21:41:03 <AnMaster> tusho, and?
21:41:04 <tusho> I wouldn't say it's unfair rather than inevitable.
21:41:19 <AnMaster> they still don't own the world
21:41:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: Do you know where New York City is? :p
21:41:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, I do happen to do that yes
21:41:48 <oklopol> boston is the same thing
21:41:49 <pikhq> Good; you have *one* of our cities.
21:41:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, but do you know where Stockholm is?
21:42:03 <pikhq> Sweden.
21:42:04 <tusho> AnMaster: sweden
21:42:04 <AnMaster> as in where in Sweden
21:42:09 <tusho> Somewhere.
21:42:12 <AnMaster> because I know where in US New York is
21:42:12 <AnMaster> ...
21:42:26 <AnMaster> and I know where in UK London is
21:42:28 <tusho> Well, I don't know the positions of many places.
21:42:31 <oklopol> AnMaster: but do you know where new york city is in new york?
21:42:34 <tusho> Pretty much only a few places in the UK.
21:42:40 <pikhq> Ah; no. You see, European countries tend to be approximately the same size as our *states*. . .
21:42:54 <oklopol> pikhq: yeah, going for that exact analogy
21:42:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, no, but I didn't ask where in Stockholms Län the city is
21:43:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, which would be the same question
21:43:05 <oklopol> AnMaster: combine what i and pikhq said
21:43:09 <pikhq> And generally, we don't even remember where in a state a city is unless we're in that state.
21:43:11 <oklopol> new york is a state
21:43:12 <AnMaster> not relevant
21:43:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, maybe, but not really relevant
21:43:44 <pikhq> Except that New York and Sweden are roughly the same size.
21:43:45 <pikhq> :p
21:43:54 <AnMaster> not really
21:43:56 <oklopol> anyway, i think it's just fair to assume non-americans know usa, and not the other way around, since this is usually the case
21:43:59 <AnMaster> Sweden is as long as New York to Florida iirc
21:44:05 <AnMaster> or a bit shorter
21:44:07 <oklopol> i probably know the states as well as an average american
21:44:07 <AnMaster> but not much
21:44:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, so your argument doesn't really hold
21:44:47 <AnMaster> yes I agree it is nowhere as wide
21:44:49 <AnMaster> but...
21:44:52 <AnMaster> that is not the same
21:45:07 <AnMaster> Sweden's area is larger than UK at least
21:45:09 <pikhq> Fine. New York is merely a fourth the area. Fine. s/New York/The East Coast/
21:45:32 <AnMaster> population is smaller in Sweden though
21:45:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, there you are then
21:45:47 <AnMaster> but you couldn't even say in what part of Sweden Stockholm is
21:45:56 <tusho> AnMaster: He's American.
21:45:58 <oklopol> of course going by what they say about the intelligence of the average american, i know a lot more about the states than they :D
21:45:59 <pikhq> Sorry; I'm used to being out west. . .
21:45:59 <tusho> Are you surprised?
21:46:00 <AnMaster> yes and?
21:46:05 <AnMaster> tusho, they should learn!
21:46:10 <tusho> GASP! He knows more about his country than Sweden. How amazing.
21:46:21 <AnMaster> not odd
21:46:28 <AnMaster> of course you know more about your own country
21:46:30 <AnMaster> but
21:46:38 <AnMaster> Americans assume the rest of the world do too
21:46:53 <AnMaster> which is not a nice way to behave
21:47:01 <tusho> No.
21:47:03 <tusho> No they don't.
21:47:07 <tusho> Not anyone in here, certainly.
21:47:12 <AnMaster> I don't assume ppl know as much about Sweden as Americas assume Swedes know about America
21:47:16 <AnMaster> this is a general issue
21:47:27 <AnMaster> not just Americans here, but other places too
21:47:31 <tusho> Anyway, I know that Stockholm is in Sweden. So your argument against people wondering why you don't know where Seattle and Boston are is invalid.
21:47:34 <tusho> It's comparable.
21:47:51 <AnMaster> tusho, not really, Stockholm is the capital after all
21:48:11 <AnMaster> and yes I know where Washington DC is
21:48:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: can you pinpoint d.c.?
21:48:17 <oklopol> ya
21:48:19 <oklopol> fast answer
21:48:21 <oklopol> ;)
21:48:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, east cost, south of New York
21:48:28 <tusho> oklopol: he replied in -0.2 seconds
21:48:32 <AnMaster> can't say exactly where, but quite close
21:48:49 <AnMaster> and I don't ask for GPS coordinates the other way either
21:49:15 <oklopol> about the location of stockholm
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21:49:20 <AnMaster> I just want east or west Sweden, or North/Middle/South
21:49:23 <oklopol> imagine finland and sweden as a set of cock and balls
21:49:27 <oklopol> finland is the balls
21:49:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, UGH
21:49:36 <oklopol> stockholm is at the bottom of the glans
21:49:40 <tusho> Well.
21:49:43 <tusho> That's an interesting analogy.
21:49:51 <AnMaster> that's obscene
21:49:51 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's easier for US citizens to assume other people know about the US. . . First, we don't deal with other countries on a regular basis. . .
21:49:54 <tusho> I like AnMaster's UGH reaction, though.
21:49:58 <tusho> "UGH! Genitals!"
21:50:05 <AnMaster> tusho, not really
21:50:11 <AnMaster> tusho, it is comparing countries to them
21:50:14 <pikhq> Our country is similar in size to continents...
21:50:15 <AnMaster> that make me go UGH
21:50:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, is that true?
21:50:32 <tusho> Whose genitals is it?
21:50:36 <tusho> Or are they severed?
21:50:48 <CakeProphet> pikhq: in general, non-US people do know way more about the US than we know about their countries.
21:51:08 <pikhq> It's approximately the same size as Europe.
21:51:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, then North America = continent. USA = sizeof(continent). North America consists of Canada and USA (and Mexico?)
21:51:24 <AnMaster> then
21:51:50 <pikhq> Canada is also about the same size as Europe. . .
21:51:56 <CakeProphet> and I don't really think it arises as a consequence of Americans being vain/egotistical/other-adjective
21:51:57 <AnMaster> sizeof(continent) == sizeof(continent) + sizeof(Canada) + sizeof(Mexico)
21:52:00 <AnMaster> that isn't correct
21:52:02 <pikhq> North America is a fucking large continent.
21:52:12 <AnMaster> unless Canada is 0
21:52:12 <tusho> Canada is the size of Europe?
21:52:16 <tusho> Well I didn't know that.,
21:52:50 <CakeProphet> I'd say that's almost right...
21:52:57 <pikhq> Canada and the US are both about 10 million square kilometers in area. (9 million if you only count land claims)
21:53:01 <CakeProphet> we could check empirically.
21:53:17 <Deewiant> Europe is also around 10.
21:53:21 * pikhq nods
21:53:47 <pikhq> The EU is only about 4, though.
21:53:59 <AnMaster> oklopol, in your odd analogy above.. what about Norway?
21:54:22 <CakeProphet> but I can definetely agree that... North American countries are... way way bigger.
21:54:52 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Than European countries? By orders of magnitude.
21:54:59 <AnMaster> <CakeProphet> pikhq: in general, non-US people do know way more about the US than we know about their countries. <-- yes... that is sad
21:55:09 <AnMaster> it shows how uninformed most Americans are
21:55:30 <CakeProphet> -shrug- I honestly think
21:55:35 <CakeProphet> it's a condition of circumstance
21:55:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: Once again: most US citizens don't typically leave the US on a regular basis.
21:55:53 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, pinpoint the capital of Norway
21:56:04 <CakeProphet> ...I don't know it?
21:56:05 <AnMaster> or even the capital of France
21:56:10 <CakeProphet> don't know it either.
21:56:16 <AnMaster> capital of Germany?
21:56:17 <pikhq> I'd guess that it's roughly equivalent to the amount of people that leave Europe on a regular basis.
21:56:26 <CakeProphet> ....yes I know that one.
21:56:30 <tusho> AnMaster is being pretty fracking rude with his stereotypes of Americans.
21:56:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Capital of Colorado?
21:56:45 <CakeProphet> oh oh oh -raises hand-
21:56:47 <tusho> Ooh ho. Nice one pikhq.
21:56:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, no clue, but capital of US yes. but I'm talking about countries
21:56:58 <CakeProphet> yes
21:56:59 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, tell then
21:57:00 <CakeProphet> but see
21:57:06 <CakeProphet> you have like four-billion countries
21:57:07 <tusho> AnMaster: The sizes are the same ..
21:57:08 <CakeProphet> whereas we have... 3.
21:57:11 <AnMaster> well maybe
21:57:17 <tusho> So this is a fair comparison, AnMaster.
21:57:27 <AnMaster> but legally countries are countries
21:57:35 <AnMaster> and it is a fair comparsion that way
21:57:42 <tusho> It's not a useful definitino.
21:57:43 <tusho> *definition
21:57:46 <AnMaster> well afk
21:57:47 <tusho> We're talking about humans.
21:57:48 <AnMaster> night
21:58:11 <CakeProphet> I think it's just a consequence of relevance. The capital of France is simply not useful information on most days in the US.
21:58:13 <tusho> bye.
21:58:17 <CakeProphet> night
22:00:01 <CakeProphet> it's not that the average American doesn't respect the existence of such countries. They are simply too disconnected, perhaps less by choice and more by environment.
22:01:25 <oklopol> 23:53… AnMaster: oklopol, in your odd analogy above.. what about Norway? <<< indeed, what about norway? i didn't mention it.
22:02:31 * CakeProphet lives in the US state of Georgia, ftr.
22:02:56 <CakeProphet> I'm not sure if the capital of Georgia is internationally relevant or not.
22:03:04 <CakeProphet> it's a big city, no doubt.
22:04:05 <oklopol> wouldn't have remembered the capital
22:04:21 <pikhq> It's barely even locally relevant. :p
22:04:32 <CakeProphet> rofl
22:04:36 <CakeProphet> ATLANTA.
22:04:45 <pikhq> See? Who cares about Atlanta?
22:04:46 <oklopol> yeah
22:04:50 <CakeProphet> Atlanta only becomes relevant
22:04:56 <CakeProphet> when you are attempting to make a cross-country flight
22:04:58 <CakeProphet> in the US
22:05:01 * pikhq nods
22:05:19 <oklopol> anyway i doubt AnMaster knows even all european capitals, just scandinavia + the ones that are historically relevant
22:05:57 <oklopol> we have all kinds of fucking schiblamastads here
22:06:35 <CakeProphet> airport, Coke, CNN (Turned Broadcasting) = Atlanta
22:06:41 <CakeProphet> *Turner
22:07:24 <CakeProphet> I know most of the west Europe capitals.
22:07:50 <CakeProphet> not where they're located in the country.
22:07:54 <CakeProphet> Except Berlin for some reason.
22:08:05 <CakeProphet> probably from history class... lolcoldwar.
22:11:38 <tusho> CakeProphet: Georgia has some cool bands!
22:11:57 <CakeProphet> ...I just got back from a huge camp out thing.
22:12:00 <CakeProphet> awesome music.
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22:12:23 <CakeProphet> there was seriously this amazing drummer who was like... inbred.
22:12:43 <CakeProphet> it was like Deliverance.
22:12:51 <Guest53704> cakeprophet! :O
22:12:51 <Guest53704> hi.
22:12:54 <Guest53704> oklopol! :O
22:12:57 <Guest53704> hey. ;D
22:12:59 <Guest53704> tusho! :O
22:13:00 <Guest53704> die.
22:13:08 <Guest53704> :P
22:13:20 <tusho> hi augur
22:13:29 <Guest53704> hey.
22:13:31 <Guest53704> hows it goin
22:13:39 <tusho> i dunno Guest53704
22:15:39 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokoko
22:15:42 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokoko
22:15:47 <oklopol> hi Guestie
22:17:19 <Guest53704> damnit
22:17:21 -!- Guest53704 has changed nick to psygnisfive.
22:17:30 <psygnisfive> fucking nickserv
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23:09:20 <oklopol> in which languages can you do the following: create an object that stores the average value of some variable for a certain amount of updates
23:09:21 <oklopol> so that
23:09:29 <oklopol> say you have speed
23:09:47 <oklopol> and you want to know what the average speed is for a certain amount of cycles
23:09:58 <edwardk> any stream processing language, lucid for instance
23:09:58 <oklopol> so you'd make an averagestorer
23:10:09 <oklopol> edwardk: i haven't finished yet
23:10:25 <oklopol> the point is
23:10:54 <oklopol> you would usually have to store each and every value that's been given as an update
23:11:07 <oklopol> as someone might query what the overall average is, at any point
23:11:45 <oklopol> now the point was, err, are there languages that let you see whether the code has any non-precompilable calls to the getaverage function
23:11:57 <oklopol> so that you could use it when deciding the internal storage for the class storing the averages
23:12:11 <oklopol> this is something i've been wanting to add to some language of mine
23:12:25 <oklopol> but i wonder whether languages actually have it, as i haven't heard about such
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