00:03:55 -!- Lectus has joined. 00:03:59 -!- Lectus has left (?). 00:07:44 * SimonRC goes to bed (The Alfandra empire shall be reunited! If I can be arsed.) 00:09:44 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:28:21 -!- timotiis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:29:55 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lolwhut?"). 00:35:07 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:05:38 * pikhq would like to declare that John Carmack kicks some major ass 01:21:50 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:07:14 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 02:27:39 -!- lilja has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'"). 04:14:18 -!- lament has joined. 04:23:32 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:08:14 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 06:40:48 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 07:44:36 -!- sebbu has joined. 07:54:29 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:43 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out). 08:06:13 -!- olsner has joined. 08:06:23 hey 09:17:08 -!- lament has quit. 09:29:52 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:30:56 -!- jemarch has joined. 09:34:02 hi 09:39:49 -!- AnMaster has joined. 10:21:09 AnMaster: I very much doubt that LLVMDC can currently compile Tango, hence you can't compile CCBI with it either 10:26:33 Deewiant, ah ok 10:30:51 -!- tusho has joined. 10:36:43 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://google.com <- Go find something better"). 11:36:07 AnMaster: that is, I haven't tried it myself but from what I gather it's not at all production-ready 11:37:14 what/ 11:42:11 Deewiant, it seems to be so indeed 11:42:15 tusho, LLVMDC 11:44:30 Deewiant, what should a funge interpreter do on an empty input file? 11:44:37 is it allowed to error out on it? 11:44:56 ...why? 11:45:29 why not... unless you think an IP is going to jump from the future and start editing it, or a concurrent IP running in another file will ;-P 11:46:07 Deewiant, ok thanks, it means I can simplify loading from file code a lot by simply mmap()ing the file and then reading from that 11:46:12 makes the code a lot cleaner 11:46:18 sigh 11:46:32 I have a new slogan. CFUNGE: Who cares, it's fast 11:46:47 it's equivalent to a C executable erroring out given the code "main() { for (;;); }" 11:47:27 ERROR: INFINITE LOOP DETECTED 11:47:30 PROGRAM DOES NOT HALT 11:47:34 COMPILATION TERMINATED. 11:48:01 also known as <> in GHC 11:52:35 I have a new slogan. CFUNGE: Who cares, it's fast 11:52:37 it isn't about that 11:52:46 it is about cleaning up the IO stuff 11:52:52 the current code is messy 11:53:00 CFUNGE: Who cares, the code is modular and pretty 11:53:20 hah 13:34:50 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:56:45 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:29:38 tusho, as a result of this change to mmap() there is no more posix_* functions I think 14:29:52 this will make you complain less I hope 14:29:55 You can still handle empty files. 14:30:18 tusho, yes just need to create an empty funge-space 14:30:28 which is what I'm coding right now 14:30:37 Uh. AnMaster . 14:30:38 tusho, mmap() doesn't work on files of size == 0 14:30:40 Just special-case it. 14:30:41 that's why 14:30:41 for (;;) 14:30:53 tusho, so yes I will special case it indeed 14:30:55 that is what I said 14:31:05 an empty file == empty funge space 14:31:16 why even bother with fungespace 14:31:19 just loop forever. 14:32:04 tusho, um what? funge space is created empty.... 14:32:19 and an empty file would load nothing into it 14:32:26 AnMaster: if (filesz == 0) {for (;;); } 14:32:38 tusho, doesn't work as you can load files with i 14:32:40 at runtime 14:32:47 yes 14:32:48 specialcase 14:32:52 indeed.... 14:32:55 if (filetoloadsz == 0) { for (;;); } 14:33:02 wrong 14:34:36 anyway it is len 14:34:40 that is the variable 14:34:49 I prefer short variable names that are still readable :P 14:34:57 len is such a one, it means length 14:35:21 ;P 14:58:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:59:36 hi ais523 15:00:19 ais523, I changed my file loading to use mmap() now in order to simplify parser and to get rid of the posix_fadvise stuff, I guess mmap() don't cause any problems for C-INTERCAL? 15:00:26 no 15:00:54 in fact I don't think you could do anything to cause problems unless either you do stack-smashing or something similar, or you fundamentally change the way the stack behaves (such as by using pthreads) 15:01:29 ais523, well I do compile with stack smash protection on my system 15:01:37 that's fine 15:01:45 I'm not actually doing any stack-smashing 15:02:02 but I expect the bit of the stack I use to be untouched by whatever you're doing 15:02:16 which it will be if the stack acts as a stack 15:02:35 and you don't, say, return from functions more often than you call them, which probably isn't even possible in C 15:03:26 Sure it is! 15:03:29 Heard of longjmp? 15:03:30 :p 15:03:35 yes, I use it quite a bit 15:03:46 but that's returning /less/ often than you call the functions... 15:03:53 Fair 'nough. 15:03:55 Hmm. 15:04:00 * pikhq contemplates 15:04:13 it's because I was messing around with longjmp that AnMaster's asking all sorts of questions about what will cause bad interactions 15:04:33 but I think I've got it pretty watertight now against anything e might try short of forking and returning twice, or using pthreads 15:04:49 Well, given some inline assembly, one could probably screw with the stack so that you can keep ret'ing forever... 15:05:56 ret_add: stick ret_add on the stack. return. 15:05:59 * pikhq grins 15:06:17 yes 15:06:21 strangely that wouldn't be a problem 15:06:32 the sort of thing that would be would be taking a snapshot of the stack continuation-style and using it later 15:06:57 Isn't that what longjmp *does*? 15:07:04 no 15:07:10 longjmp only records the location on the stack 15:07:15 Sorry; it's been a while since I've looked at longjmp. 15:07:17 welll, setjmp does 15:07:24 and longjmp pops the right number of elements to get down to it 15:07:35 so it's just like RESUME with an argument greater than 1 in INTERCAL 15:07:44 except that in INTERCAL you have to calculate the argument yourself 15:07:49 and in C the runtime calculates it for you 15:09:22 * pikhq considers longjmp and setjmp a form of arcane magic. 15:09:41 One which I simply *must* find an excuse to use in my 'intro to CS' cflass. 15:09:44 s/cflass/class/ 15:10:05 pikhq: I have an IOCCC entry ready for the next time it's open 15:10:09 which uses stack smashing to store data 15:10:16 Sweet. :) 15:10:19 I'd actually like to test it on AnMaster's stack-smash-protected system 15:10:30 because I think that unlike other stack smashing methods it should be pretty portable 15:10:48 http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bubble-indent.c <- My attempt at obfuscated C code. 15:10:49 basically it should work on anything that uses an array-like rather than linked-list-like structure as the variable stack 15:10:58 Your thoughts? 15:11:13 Oh; I think I've paraded that about before. 15:11:18 incredibly readable, also you're using a GNU-specific extension 15:11:32 let me try to figure out what the algorithm does 15:11:33 Well aware that I'm using a GNU-specific extension. 15:11:43 because you can still have an obfuscated algorithm in a readable program 15:11:44 Quite intentional. 15:12:13 In the IOCCC, you get extra points for having well-formatted code that people still can't figure out. ;p 15:12:24 well, mine /is/ well-formatted 15:12:26 it's indented correctly 15:12:39 only it looked a bit long, so I wrote it in two columns and indented each of those correctly 15:13:11 Well, yeah. Your obfuscation comes from it storing data via stack smashing, not from exploiting the insanities of C's syntax. 15:13:23 no, it exploits the insanities of C's syntax too 15:13:40 Hmm. 15:13:44 I'll show you somehow if you promise to keep it secret, I wouldn't keep it secret normally but you can be disqualified from the IOCCC for publishing an entry early 15:13:52 also I can paste my entry last year 15:13:57 which didn't use stack-smashing 15:14:14 Mmmkay. 15:14:35 * ais523 waits for pastebin.ca to load 15:15:09 Lemme know when or if you've figured out my C code there. 15:15:10 ;p 15:15:30 bubble sort of its command line argument? 15:15:50 Yup. 15:15:50 must be, I just noticed the file name 15:15:56 Dammit; you figured it out. 15:16:00 :( 15:16:03 Ah well. 15:16:08 That was fun to write, at least. 15:16:12 that was a guess to start with on the basis that you were comparing consecutive string elements and going back to the start if they were equal 15:16:24 s/equal/different in the wrong way/ 15:16:51 Actually, comparing characters in argv[1]. 15:17:15 well, yes 15:17:18 the first command line argument 15:18:12 ah, statics are initialized to zero 15:18:15 didn't know that 15:18:44 http://rafb.net/p/iaUKUX21.html 15:18:47 that's last year's entry 15:18:55 it seems to have screwed the whitespace up slightly, but oh well 15:19:10 (I encoded hidden info in the whitespace, so it's relevant...) 15:19:24 that needs a command-line define to work 15:19:43 gcc '-D_(a,b,_,d,e)=while(a(d(e(_?putchar(b):(c=getchar())<0?b:c))))' -Dunsigned= -funsigned-char -ansi 15:19:45 is the command line 15:19:53 plus the filename of course 15:19:59 but it's not a ridiculously long define 15:20:03 -Dunsigned= ? evill 15:20:18 Deewiant: that's a neat trick, I absolutely need argv to be pointer to pointer to unsigned char 15:20:26 so I write unsigned char** as its data type 15:20:43 :-P 15:20:45 but that violates the standard, so when using gcc I define the unsigned away and use -funsigned-char to add it implicitly... 15:20:49 Is that a Brainfuck implementation? 15:20:51 :p 15:20:53 pikhq: yes 15:21:01 well, not exactly 15:21:13 ... How...? 15:21:15 also the block of BF-like code near the start is not all Brainfuck 15:21:20 about 3/4 of it is 15:21:28 the rest is just junk that's there to make it hard to read 15:21:57 hm, the rafb syntax highlighter doesn't catch that it's a comment 15:22:16 well, yes, the / and the * of the start-comment marker are on different lines 15:22:20 Deewiant: That's because it uses a naive parser, I bet. 15:22:22 very few syntax highlighters catch that 15:22:32 vim's probably will 15:22:34 * Deewiant tries 15:22:50 ais523: Nice work on the comment insanity. 15:23:03 pikhq: strangely, that's the only way I could do it 15:23:08 I *still* don't get it, but I can get that part, at least. 15:23:11 you see, the program's a C/Perl/Brainfuck polyglot 15:23:14 no, evidently it doesn't :-/ 15:23:20 Ahah. 15:23:24 and /* is inevitably a syntax error at the start of a Perl program 15:23:27 That explains a lot. 15:24:01 the $_= gave it away :-) 15:24:04 the Perl and the BF programs just discover yet more programs hidden in the original 15:24:14 #; '/\' <<; /)|}.${.(/=)_$( 15:24:17 :-o 15:24:18 that line should give something else away 15:24:31 and also explain why the first line is blank 15:24:32 Shell? 15:24:39 nope, not even shell looks like that 15:24:43 it's Perl, but written backwards 15:24:48 You've not seen my shell. 15:24:48 :-D 15:24:49 :p 15:25:13 pikhq: I'd love to see a shell which actually understands syntax like that 15:25:16 and isn't just backwards Perl 15:25:27 I joke. 15:25:40 Though I bet there's a way to get Zsh to handle that syntax. 15:26:02 I'm pretty sure there's a way to get bash to /tab-complete/ that syntax 15:26:07 although why you'd want it to is beyond me 15:26:44 anyway, it isn't a "naive" implementation of Brainfuck 15:26:48 Zsh's tab completion is much better than Bash's. 15:26:53 because it handles the loops somewhat funkily 15:27:02 pikhq: I know, which is strange as Bash's is Turing-complete 15:27:11 Turing-complete? O_o 15:27:17 Deewiant: it's written in bash 15:27:22 so not particularly surprising 15:27:23 Zsh's is a superset, IIRC. 15:28:33 Yup; zsh's completion bits are generally zsh functions. 15:44:42 -!- MikeRiley has joined. 15:46:33 I'd actually like to test it on AnMaster's stack-smash-protected system <-- hm? 15:46:45 AnMaster: my stack-smashing IOCCC entry 15:46:48 -fstack-protector 15:46:50 in gcc 15:46:51 ah, ok 15:46:55 I can try it over here 15:47:08 4.2 or later (or 4.1 with distro-patched gcc) 15:47:10 ais523, ^ 15:47:29 gentoo has the patch back ported to 4.1, but official gcc only got it in 4.2 iirc 15:47:46 ok 15:48:14 ais523, oh btw does C-INTERCAL build using LLVM? 15:48:22 cfunge builds fine with llvm-gcc 15:48:37 but it is really a pain to setup, so I wouldn't even try that myself on ick 15:48:42 AnMaster: I've never tried 15:49:38 ais523, reading POSIX specs it turns out mmap() is optional, but have you ever seen any modern system that lacks mmap()?! 15:50:39 ais523, I added a check for that in cfunge, (like it depends on IEE floating point) 15:50:48 AnMaster: Windows. 15:51:31 -!- MikeRiley has quit ("Leaving"). 15:51:45 yes, IIRC cygwin can't handle it 15:52:25 AnMaster: Strictly speaking, you only need brk() for malloc purposes; mmap() is optional, but very, very handy. 15:52:38 well... I depend on mmap() now 15:52:46 * AnMaster shrugs 15:52:55 In addition to the obvious uses of it, it makes for a much saner malloc implementation. 15:53:00 ais523, sure cygwin doesn't emulate it, quite a few software depends on mmap() iirc 15:54:30 anyway I'm not going to loose any sleep over that it doesn't work on cygwin :) 15:55:29 I actually tried to get it working on cygwin earlier today 15:55:33 mmap() allows the file reader to be much simpler than the previous rather complex parser that had to keep track of if last char was a \r between the fgets()s 15:55:37 because I was checking to see if C-INTERCAL worked on cygwin 15:55:46 ais523, did cfunge work? 15:55:48 C-INTERCAL itself worked first time 15:55:50 cfunge didn't 15:55:56 a huge number of things it needed weren't in the headers 15:56:06 like? 15:56:18 most of the stuff the TERM fingerprint uses 15:56:26 that's just ncurses... 15:56:26 but there were other things too 15:56:38 well, I know 15:56:40 ais523, TERM only uses ncurses, and assumes a termcap database 15:56:41 but apparently it didn't 15:56:51 and I'm pretty sure cygwin got ncurses 15:56:55 ais523, what other things? 15:57:05 I can't remember off the top of my head 15:57:09 and don't have Windows here to test on 15:57:12 ah 15:57:51 ais523, well, worse for Deewiant if he wants to test it officially for mycology results page at some point (still haven't had time to fix that concurrency bug, next weekend probably as I said) 16:02:08 yep, my stack-smashing program survives -fstack-protector 16:02:14 but well, it works on freebsd 6.2 with one minor change in FIXP 16:02:27 ais523, it only checks for return address being clobbered iirc 16:02:36 it segfaults with -O3 though 16:02:45 if it isn't clobbered enough there will be no detection iirc 16:03:42 all this proves is that there are some things gcc's optimiser can't handle... 16:04:00 with code like that, though, I stand no chance of winning unless I can get it to work on a variety of ccs 16:04:14 -!- MikeRiley has joined. 16:04:23 ais523, heh? 16:04:24 Imagine an AnMaster IOCCC entry. 16:04:32 It'd be modular, multiple-files, and optimized to hell. 16:04:41 And the .hint would be full documentation. 16:04:43 tusho, no not for IOCCC of course... 16:04:45 I don't think you can do a multiple-files entry... 16:04:54 ais523: That would stop him? 16:04:55 tusho, not that I would take part in IOCCC 16:04:58 at least, prog.c has to compile by itself 16:05:05 AnMaster: Yeah. It's a DISGRACE. 16:05:11 not saying that 16:05:14 AnMaster: http://rafb.net/p/iaUKUX21.html 16:05:16 but it isn't my thing 16:05:16 my entry last year 16:05:24 gcc '-D_(a,b,_,d,e)=while(a(d(e(_?putchar(b):(c=getchar())<0?b:c))))' -Dunsigned= -funsigned-char -ansi 16:05:34 is the required command line args to gcc 16:05:35 ais523, seen it before iirc 16:05:38 ah, ok 16:05:38 what does it do 16:05:39 :P 16:05:49 tusho: guess, there's a pretty big clue near the start of the program 16:05:57 Oh. 16:05:57 well as far as I can see it includes brainfuck 16:05:57 Yeah. 16:06:03 It's a BF interp 16:06:05 ais523: For the IOCCC, I think you can get away with it only working on a specific C compiler, so long as you state what C compiler it is. 16:06:16 btw the block of code at the top is about 3/4 BF and about 1/4 padding 16:06:25 with no obvious distinction between the two 16:06:25 ais523, um "-Dunsigned= -funsigned-char " 16:06:30 that's pretty strange... 16:06:40 pikhq: no you can't, read the guidelines 16:06:49 ais523, care to explain why -Dunsigned= -funsigned-char is there? 16:06:55 AnMaster: well, I absolutely needed argv to be a pointer to pointer to unsigned char 16:07:03 so I defined its type as unsigned char ** 16:07:07 ANSI doesn't like that though 16:07:12 Argh. 16:07:16 why not just remove the unsigned? 16:07:18 ais523, ? 16:07:23 so on gcc I make the program correct C89 by removing the unsigned and forcing char to unsigned 16:07:30 AnMaster: because it has to be a pointer to pointer to unsigned char 16:07:37 how else could I guarantee that the char was unsigned? 16:07:45 ais523, ah um 16:07:58 well, one way's to use -funsigned-char 16:08:10 in which case the unsigned is unneccessary 16:08:14 and I can define it away 16:08:25 but on compilers which aren't so obliging, there's the unsigned in the program itself 16:08:33 which is theoretically wrong but should work anyway 16:09:50 I see 16:09:53 why use -ansi at all? 16:11:16 because I can 16:11:22 oh, and it turns on trigraph support 16:11:27 which is off by default in gcc 16:11:34 and there are a few trigraphs in there 16:11:47 it's really useful so you can have an array subscript in C easily 16:17:38 i made an interpreter for a language i made called 42 16:17:41 http://unforgettable.dk/42.zip 16:17:50 that's a zip file... 16:17:55 yes. 16:17:59 containing the interpreter. 16:20:28 ah wait 16:20:30 updated version: 16:20:31 http://steike.com/code/useless/zip-file-quine/droste.zip 16:21:24 AnMaster: TERM can't use curses 16:21:37 unless you init it at the start of your program and use it for all output, then maybe 16:24:39 Deewiant, oh why? 16:24:50 Deewiant, give me a good reason 16:24:57 initializing curses clears the screen 16:24:59 because it might not be loaded at the start of the program 16:25:18 Deewiant, well yes of course 16:25:36 Deewiant, and? it is cleared first time fingerprint is loaded, that's it 16:25:51 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:25:51 but I could change it to make the interpreter call it 16:25:55 Deewiant, it works using term.h 16:26:01 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit). 16:26:03 and with TERM you should be able to do a"raboof",,,,,,,"MRET"4( 16:26:19 if you use curses, the ( clears the screen and that wouldn't work 16:26:24 Deewiant, oh? where in the specs does it say so 16:26:28 TERM specs I mean 16:26:43 MikeRiley: want to help me out here? ;-) 16:26:45 TERM was not originally designed for use with curses... 16:26:59 if i remember correctly,,,TERM just outputs vt-100 codes... 16:27:07 yours does, yes 16:27:09 but would have to look at the code to be sure of that... 16:27:10 does it work, though? 16:27:12 MikeRiley, that is not portable 16:27:13 I seem to recall it doesn't 16:27:14 does for me... 16:27:19 you need to use term info database 16:27:20 AnMaster: YOUR GODDAMN THING ISN'T PORTABLE 16:27:23 i agree,,,thought about chaning it to ansi.... 16:27:30 tusho, it may not be to cygwin 16:27:36 tusho, it is to stuff like *BSD 16:27:38 I tested on that 16:27:42 You go complaining about portability and stuff it full of obscure functions that might not even work. 16:27:46 it works on freebsd 6.2 16:27:50 I only tested on cygwin so that might explain why RC/Funge didn't work :-) 16:27:53 tusho, all but mmap() is optional 16:27:59 well, I think C-INTERCAL possibly predates C89 16:28:06 although it uses prototypes throughout anyway 16:28:08 Just stop being so ridiculous and making everyone here's life harder by whining that it's not portable for every goddamn thing we suggest. 16:28:13 it certainly predates C89 catching on 16:28:17 but it was modernised ages ago 16:28:19 Nobody. Cares. How. Portable. Your. Befunge. Interpreter. Is. 16:28:20 TERM works for me while using xterm as my terminal windows... 16:28:27 tusho: I. Do. 16:28:31 Deewiant, well as cygwin lacks mmap() apperently you can't get cfunge to work on it 16:28:34 * AnMaster shrugs 16:28:41 ideally, the underlying code for TERM should be tailored to the environment the particular interpreter is meant to run... 16:28:46 Rule one of coding in C: USE AUTOTOOLS. 16:28:51 Deewiant, ais523 tried it seems 16:28:52 Thank you, that is all. 16:28:56 the spec just specifies what TERM is to do, not how it is to do it... 16:28:57 pikhq: Well that's an awful rule. 16:28:59 pikhq, god no, I use cmake 16:29:01 It involves using autotools. 16:29:03 AnMaster: there were also problems in FPSP 16:29:07 -- Your friendly psychotic guy who hates people not using sane build systems. 16:29:08 I just remembered 16:29:14 i used vt-100 codes since they work in xterm, i used ansi on the windows version since that woked in the dos windows... 16:29:18 pikhq: I use autoconf but not the others 16:29:19 pikhq: Haha, you just called autotools sane :) 16:29:22 ais523, maybe, sinf() and the other *f are C99 functions 16:29:28 MikeRiley: DOS != Windows :-) 16:29:30 ais523, so very possible that doesn't work 16:29:30 pikhq: AnMaster once tried to automakise it and failed 16:29:42 tusho: Compared to the 4,000 line Perl script I'm being paid to make work, it is sane. 16:29:45 well,,,i know...meant more that it can be run in a windows environment instead of unix... 16:29:53 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:30:08 AnMaster: does your TERM work and not use curses, then? 16:30:10 Yes, a 4,000 line Perl script for a build system. 16:30:19 to a certain extent TERM is going to be platform dependent... 16:30:25 Deewiant, it works but yes it initialize on first load and it uses term.h 16:30:29 Some days, I hate building RPMs. 16:30:33 on unix systems it could be built on top of curses,,,but that is not available for windows... 16:30:44 AnMaster: as long as it doesn't clear the screen that's fine :-) 16:30:47 Deewiant, putting into the addressing mode thingy cause screen to clear 16:31:00 MikeRiley: PDCurses works on DOS, Windows, and various other platforms. 16:31:00 Deewiant, but I found out that it isn't needed on xterm or linux console 16:31:03 it may be needed on other ones 16:31:05 Deewiant, ^ 16:31:08 ok, never seen that... 16:31:09 AnMaster: cygwin doesn't have term.h, that's one thing that caused lots of errors 16:31:18 ais523, well that is POSIX iirc 16:31:20 let me check 16:31:35 MikeRiley: it's the only curses implementation I think I've ever used. :-P 16:31:48 i have only used ncurses on unix... 16:31:58 ais523: hmm, I think cygwin should have term.h 16:32:01 ais523, can't find if it is, but I'm pretty sure term.h is standard 16:32:04 I've used both pdcurses and ncurses 16:32:08 term.h is standard... 16:32:09 pdcurses on DOS, ncurses on Linux 16:32:17 well cygwin is broken then 16:32:19 * AnMaster shrugs 16:32:20 cygwin should have it if the necessary package was installed... 16:32:22 Deewiant: maybe it was in a weird place and couldn't find it 16:32:27 btw I'm testing out twinview 16:32:28 MikeRiley: I installed all the packages in cygwin 16:32:29 term.h comes with ncurses, no? 16:32:30 really cool 16:32:34 with dual screens 16:32:36 :) 16:32:53 hold on, let me go and look at a cygwin installation,,,brb,,,, 16:33:02 * ais523 also looks at a cygwin installation 16:33:09 * Deewiant too! 16:33:31 ./machine/termios.h 16:33:31 ./ncurses/term.h 16:33:31 ./ncurses/termcap.h 16:33:31 ./sys/termio.h 16:33:33 ./sys/termios.h 16:33:35 ./termcap.h 16:33:38 ./termio.h 16:33:40 ./termios.h 16:33:45 nope, no term.h 16:33:52 ncurses/term.h, does that count 16:34:06 probably that's the one 16:34:14 in which case AnMaster needs to use some sort of autolocation tool for it 16:34:26 hm 16:35:49 termio and termcap are the ones that are in cygwin...no term.h 16:37:40 doing a search of the entire cygwin structure does not have term.h 16:38:04 maybe you don't have ncurses installed 16:38:09 that is possible... 16:38:13 /usr/include/ncurses/term.h exists here 16:38:14 I do, definitely 16:38:19 i thought all packages were installed, but they may not be... 16:38:22 and I have ncurses/term.h 16:38:24 but not plain term.h 16:39:06 ais523, try changing in cfunge then to see if it works 16:39:09 and what was that about mmap in cygwin? 16:39:29 Deewiant, no idea, anyway cfunge now loads files using mmap() because that makes the parser much simpler 16:39:33 I don't know if it works, but I wouldn't expect it to 16:39:37 why not 16:39:38 as I no longer need to care about previous char 16:39:39 AnMaster: never heard of fungetc? 16:39:42 across a edge 16:39:43 windows has equivalents 16:39:52 ais523, um yes I know about it 16:39:59 ais523, but I prefer to get in chunks 16:40:11 the performance for loading mycology gets worse otherwise 16:40:13 so just have a buffer in between 16:40:20 "makes the parser much simpler" and "makes the parser much faster" are contradictory to some extent 16:40:30 ais523, not really 16:40:33 so if you're going for speed, you shouldn't really go for simplicity 16:40:37 Deewiant, yes but what if stuff happens a \r\n is across the edge of the buffer? 16:40:40 after all you're even funrolling loops... 16:40:42 that is what I wanted to remove 16:40:46 less complicated logic 16:40:55 ais523, I am? 16:40:58 not really 16:41:00 I thought you were 16:41:02 AnMaster: why would it matter? 16:41:05 gcc may be unrolling them 16:41:05 in compiler switches 16:41:09 but I don't 16:41:14 you get a char, notice that it's \r, get another char, the buffer loads another block, you get \n 16:41:17 ais523, -O2 already does that sometimes 16:41:17 that's why the funroll, you see 16:41:33 Deewiant, well mmap is what I use now, much simpler really 16:41:53 you can just loop over the file? 16:42:03 hm? 16:42:13 how is it simpler 16:42:14 AnMaster: what if the whole file doesn't fit into memory? 16:42:17 Deewiant, also this allowed me to get rid of some posix_fadvise stuff ;P 16:42:18 although I suppose that would fail anyway 16:42:26 ais523, then it wouldn't fit into funge space either 16:42:30 * AnMaster shrugs 16:42:38 AnMaster: yes, you need a posix_memory_cache_advise instead now 16:42:43 ais523, nop 16:42:51 no more posix_* in loading stuff :P 16:42:56 AnMaster: but don't you now need to have memory for both the file and the Funge-Space at the same time? 16:43:01 or how does mmap work 16:43:05 * ais523 was about to say that 16:43:06 Deewiant, yes I do 16:43:16 but I don't think I'm likely to hit that 16:43:28 nothing in funge specs says I can't use mmap() 16:43:55 no, but it's a bit wasteful to not be able to load a 300MB file with 512MB of memory :-P 16:43:55 well, nothing in the funge specs says I can't use CreateProcessEx 16:44:04 that doesn't mean it's a good idea... 16:44:18 ais523, you are free to do so if you want 16:44:36 not really, Microsoft went back to calling it CreateProcess 16:44:55 ais523, and you may even need it (or the non-Ex version) if you want PERL to work on windows 16:45:12 on *nix I can just use fork() and execvp() 16:45:13 only if you're coding at the OS level... 16:45:13 btw,,,,Rc/Funge-98 v1.10 is going to have some new fingerprints.... 16:45:22 and fork() and execvp() are at the OS level :-P 16:45:22 AnMaster: well, you could do the same on cygwin 16:45:30 which can fork on Windows 16:45:31 ais523, hm? 16:45:33 ais523: except that exec won't do what you think it does 16:45:40 Deewiant, it won't? 16:45:40 although it advices you to do spawn instead to save a lot of trouble 16:45:52 AnMaster: well, it'll /work/ 16:46:01 but I think both fork() and exec() will do a CreateProcess 16:46:13 fork definitely does a createprocess 16:46:20 because cygwin doesn't cow forking processes 16:46:21 only "spawn" man page here is spawn(8) 16:46:25 but instead copies everything over at once 16:46:27 " The spawn(8) daemon provides the Postfix equivalent of inetd. It listens on a port as specified in..." 16:46:36 fso spawnvp 16:46:36 not what you meant I guess? 16:46:38 AnMaster: "spawn" is a common name for fork/exec mixes 16:46:38 err 16:46:42 try spawnvp 16:46:52 $ man spawnvp 16:46:53 No manual entry for spawnvp 16:46:54 it's often implemented even on systems where fork isn't 16:47:09 $ man spawn 16:47:10 spawn spawn-fcgi spawn.h 16:47:14 where the spawn one is 8 16:47:16 posix_spawn apparently 16:47:22 haha @ Deewiant 16:47:23 :P 16:47:31 no, really :-P 16:47:35 posix_spawn and posix_spawnp 16:47:45 $ man posix_spawn 16:47:45 No manual entry for posix_spawn 16:47:53 http://www.google.com/search?q=posix_spawn 16:47:54 I got a man page for it 16:48:29 These functions are part of the Spawn option and need not be provided on all implementations. 16:48:37 well 16:48:43 not going to use that am I? 16:48:49 well 16:48:54 just fork() and execv() + some pipe() and dup2() 16:48:57 generally it's best for configure to check for spawn and use it if it's available 16:48:58 why would you anyway, given that you have a working implementation 16:48:58 for PERL 16:49:14 yeah, "just" four kernel primitives ;-) 16:49:14 because systems which bother to implement spawn normally need it pretty badly 16:49:18 NAME 16:49:19 posix_spawn, posix_spawnp - spawn a process (ADVANCED REALTIME) 16:49:21 well... 16:49:22 tusho, ^ 16:49:28 Deewiant, want me to use that 16:49:29 ADVANCED REALTIME 16:49:30 HELP! 16:49:36 not the ADVANCED REALTIME version 16:49:36 tusho, I don't want to use it 16:49:38 AARRGH 16:49:39 AnMaster: 2008-07-29 18:48:57 ( Deewiant) why would you anyway, given that you have a working implementation 16:49:47 Deewiant, ah yes indeed :) 16:49:56 int posix_spawn(pid_t *restrict pid, const char *restrict path, 16:49:57 const posix_spawn_file_actions_t *file_actions, 16:49:57 const posix_spawnattr_t *restrict attrp, 16:49:57 char *const argv[restrict], char *const envp[restrict]); 16:49:59 that 16:50:00 is 16:50:01 WORSE 16:50:03 than windows 16:50:06 oh god 16:50:08 what a mess 16:50:13 no, it's about the same 16:50:15 spawnlp is the common name on Windows 16:50:26 ahh, VC`` 16:50:28 This POSIX function is deprecated beginning in Visual C++ 2005. Use the ISO C++ conformant _spawnlp instead. 16:50:29 which has 3 args and a ... 16:50:33 s/`/+/g 16:50:54 is that the same as execlp? 16:51:06 as spawn is vfork+exec I'd expect it to be 16:51:12 int execlp(const char *file, const char *arg, ...); 16:51:12 posix_spawn looks like something different 16:51:24 ew, vfork 16:51:26 ok, the Windows spawnlp has an int flags at the start 16:51:41 Deewiant: vfork's just an optimisation for things that can't handle forking properly 16:51:54 in fact it exists for the same reason spawn does... 16:52:04 It is rather unfortunate that Linux revived this specter from the past. The BSD man page states: "This system call will be eliminated when proper system sharing mechanisms are imple‐ 16:52:08 mented. Users should not depend on the memory sharing semantics of vfork() as it will, in that case, be made synonymous to fork(2)." 16:52:11 :-) 16:52:33 Deewiant: the correct interpretation of vfork is as a limited version of fork 16:52:38 I think when the docs for a function say "[i]t is rather unfortunate that [this exists]" you know you're not doing well ;-) 16:52:40 where you can't change memory in the child until you exec 16:52:42 Deewiant, isn't it synonymous on linux iirc? 16:52:48 beats me 16:52:56 AnMaster: no, on Linux vfork blocks the parent until the child execs for efficiency reasons 16:53:02 basically, vfork + exec = spawn 16:53:03 ais523, hm ok 16:53:07 so does fork + exec 16:53:12 well I need to do some other stuff as well 16:53:15 the difference is that you can't legally use vfork for anything else... 16:53:17 so I use fork() 16:53:25 it's an optimisation, which the programmer is forced to do 16:53:26 because I need to mess with file descriptors in the child 16:53:30 ais523, ^ 16:53:34 and it's unfortunate that it exists because the OS should figure it for itself 16:53:41 AnMaster: I can't remember whether you're allowed to do that 16:53:48 with vfor 16:53:50 s/$/k/ 16:53:57 ais523, and even malloc() to create an array 16:53:59 the annoying thing being that even if you aren't it'll probably work anyway 16:54:03 which I'm pretty sure you can't 16:54:11 oh, not malloc 16:54:18 that would definitely not be allowed 16:54:23 indeed 16:54:30 ais523, so I just use full fork() 16:55:03 and take the performance hit on systems where vfork is several orders of magnitude faster than fork? 16:55:13 I'd have expected you to set things up so that you /could/ use vfork 16:55:36 http://www.unixguide.net/unix/programming/1.1.2.shtml 16:55:42 is apparently a guide about vfork vs. fork 16:55:42 ais523, well freebsd doesn't have that issue 16:55:47 nor does linux 16:55:49 or any other *bsd 16:56:08 I would be surprised if modern solaris had the issue 16:56:16 cygwin has that issue for obvious reasons 16:56:24 nor does OS X 16:56:26 which is that hooking into the Windows kernel memory manager would be ridiculous 16:56:32 and really, I don't give a damn about cygwin 16:56:38 sorry to say that, but that is how it is 16:57:40 I'm happy if it works on there, but if it doesn't I won't care. I don't plan to install windows to try it out, nor install wine 16:58:04 cygwin doesn't run on wine 16:58:12 ah 16:58:40 AnMaster: I dunno why you care more about ObscuroPOSIX than the OS most of the worl duses. 17:00:36 tusho, I care about a standard that works 17:00:56 cfunge worked on OS X, at least it did last month when I got a friend to try it out 17:01:13 I tested it on all BSD (found an issue today that I just fixed, with a missing include on freebsd) 17:02:08 i'll probably stop programming the day i start caring whether my program works on computers other than mine 17:02:23 I just think it's harder to write a non-platform-agnostic program in general 17:02:25 oklopol: well, I was originally like that 17:02:31 but I've had to move computers several times 17:03:28 ais523: i will, hopefully, make my own platform some day, and disconnect from the rest of the world 17:03:32 that would be sweet 17:03:40 just run BeOS 17:03:41 oklopol: will you still join #esoteric? 17:03:43 or something 17:03:49 ais523: perhaps :D 17:04:00 BeOS or RISC OS 17:04:12 anyway i use python so platforms aren't that much of an issue ofc 17:04:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 17:04:41 if the python people care about different platforms, then i kinda get that for free 17:05:30 really it would be better to stop using programming languages altogether, i could just program in pi calculus 17:05:54 yeah, you wouldn't have to run programs then either 17:06:17 yeah! i could like live in the woods. 17:07:19 that would be awesome, i'd live in a hole and have like a torch for light and code on leaves with my piece of coal 17:07:33 i should've rhymed hole/coal 17:07:54 and what would this code be for 17:08:19 for my amusement, naturally 17:11:38 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:13:32 so much fun, now i need a c++ compiler, so i need to do exactly what i did when i was getting intercal, although now click on "i want c++ too" 17:13:48 do i have any idea how to do this after just doing it a week ago? hell no! :D 17:14:09 * oklopol continues trying & failing miserably 17:14:59 BeOS or RISC OS <-- OS/2? 17:15:13 and what the fuck is this about really, i get a list of files all of which i need to download, but there's no way to just download them all :D 17:15:15 yeah, that too :-) 17:15:30 Deewiant, but BeOS got some users iirc 17:15:38 something like a open source clone 17:15:40 so does RISC OS 17:15:43 Haiku? 17:15:47 something like that 17:15:53 something japanese style in name 17:15:55 I remember that 17:15:56 I wonder, is having "OS" in the name of an OS a criterion for it not becoming popular 17:16:02 Mac OS? 17:16:11 hm yeah I guess you are right 17:16:21 hm, Mac OS, good point 17:16:33 PCLinuxOS is a pretty popular Linux distro 17:16:33 maybe the "X" cancels it out 17:16:34 Deewiant, well it isn't very popular ;P 17:16:40 that was *my* point 17:16:44 I know 17:16:49 and I think you're wrong 17:16:53 it's quite popular 17:17:00 hm ok 17:17:01 maybe 17:17:07 ais523: is it more popular than mac os? 17:17:11 anyway has anyone here tried twinview? 17:17:14 I did that today 17:17:29 oklopol: I doubt it, Mac OS X is way more popular than all Linux distros combined for the home market I think 17:17:29 had a monitor around due to my dad's PC having a broken mobo 17:17:38 so took it's monitor while he waits for getting a new from work 17:17:40 quite cool 17:17:45 or even: very cool 17:20:31 os x is second to windows 17:20:34 in popularity 17:20:44 tusho: nah, it's fourth to Windows, Windows and Windows IIRC 17:20:45 13-20% of the market I believe 17:20:49 ais523: *g* 17:20:54 linux has something pitiful like 5% 17:20:55 and the figures I saw most recently put it at 6% 17:21:00 with Linux at 3% 17:21:02 and BeOS has 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% 17:21:09 (there is no 1 at the end) 17:21:28 well, my MegaWeirdOS has about -90% of the market 17:21:32 because it's the exact opposite of Windows 17:21:39 it doesn't exist yet, I just made it up on the spot 17:22:03 it can do file copies very quickly, but cannot do anything else in a reasonable timespan except within the first 15 mins or so after its perfect startup 17:22:03 exact opposite... 17:22:05 so it's featureful 17:22:08 intuitive 17:22:11 elegant 17:22:12 fast 17:22:14 lean 17:22:16 and free? 17:22:23 oh, and it prompts whenever you try to do something that doesn't require admin privileges 17:22:31 or looks like it might not need them 17:22:34 based on its filename 17:22:42 innocentprogram.exe 17:22:50 shoppinglist.txt 17:22:52 it comes with a stock of 50,000,000 sample programs 17:22:58 although strangely no basic text editors 17:23:18 and no web browser or file manager 17:23:34 no 17:23:39 IE being a web browser is debatable... 17:23:40 :P 17:23:41 it doesn't need a file manager though 17:23:55 It doesn't have a file system. That's why file copies need to be so optimized. 17:23:56 it has a chording command line interface 17:23:58 tusho: IE 7 is semi-decent 17:24:00 like a cross between bash and emacs 17:24:10 chording? 17:24:14 Deewiant: yes, it's copied a lot of good features from Firefox badly 17:24:26 Deewiant: ESCape Meta-Alt-Control-Shift- 17:24:29 which Opera enthusiasts claim Firefox copied badly ;-) 17:24:32 Commands are performed by pressing multiple keys simultaneously. 17:24:40 ah, right 17:24:54 "RSI-inducing" 17:25:13 * ais523 thinks that that's their favourite backronym for Emacs 17:25:30 :-) 17:25:43 it's accurate, but not necessarily a bad thing 17:25:52 I'm used to pressing alt-control-shift-5 to do a regex replace 17:25:57 and it isn't that difficult to type... 17:26:04 (alt=meta on this keyboard) 17:27:22 alt-control-shift-5? doing that with one hand seems annoying 17:27:26 escape = meta = alt 17:27:29 it's redundant. 17:27:30 and with two, even more so ;-) 17:30:41 Deewiant, when would you use that? 17:30:51 what? 17:31:08 alt-control-shift-5... 17:31:20 it seems like a stupid key combo 17:31:21 regex replace in Emacs 17:31:26 and normally I use both hands for it 17:31:34 err isn't that Meta-%? 17:31:38 maybe not 17:31:43 no, it's control-meta-% 17:32:12 ok that's silly 17:32:18 never used that key combo 17:32:24 I guess you can rebind it? 17:32:27 I think removing one of the keys in it does it without the regex 17:32:38 ais523, yes Meta-% is without regexc 17:32:40 regex* 17:33:06 -!- olsner has joined. 17:33:07 I suppose the keybindings don't seem silly to emacs users after a while 17:33:08 ais523, anyway wouldn't emacs be worse on a dvorak? 17:33:26 brb 17:33:27 ais523, and no I'm happy with C-x C-s for save :) 17:33:31 and so on 17:33:44 most work fine 17:33:50 but control-meta-% is just silly 17:33:52 ais523, anyway wouldn't emacs be worse on a dvorak? <--- no idea, but the mind boggles 17:34:04 heh 17:34:09 geez, alt-ctrl-shift-5 17:34:16 ais523, btw escape then ctrl-shift-5 works 17:34:20 which is rather easy 17:34:23 well yes but that's harder to type 17:34:26 as escape already does meta 17:34:33 ais523, no you can release after esc 17:34:33 esc's all the way up the top left of the keyboard 17:34:35 so easier 17:34:39 AnMaster: it takes longer 17:34:42 ais523, well I got big hands 17:34:43 and I have to move my left hand 17:34:45 % 17:34:52 so it is within reach even when I'm on home row 17:35:00 that was a control-alt-shift-5 with one hand 17:35:00 about half a cm moving 17:35:07 ais523, ^ 17:35:08 and I tend to type a bit below home row 17:35:15 maybe Emacs users get used to that... 17:35:15 this is a full size keyboard yes 17:35:19 seems tiny to be 17:35:24 as I said I got large hands 17:35:40 ais523, depends on what editor I use :) 17:36:59 ais523, in kate or kdevelop I move differently 17:37:05 and yet another way in nano 17:37:12 ais523, I use several text editors 17:37:16 so do I 17:37:25 emacs, nano, kate, kdevelop 17:37:26 but in Kate I generally have to go through the menus to get to things 17:37:27 that's it I think 17:37:31 and in nano I often can't find them at all 17:37:36 ais523, nah I tend to know where the keys are in all 17:37:41 partly because they aren't there 17:37:48 ais523, hah ok truew 17:37:49 true* 17:37:54 nano is not for programming 17:37:59 it is great for a quick config file edit 17:38:03 where you don't want *~ 17:38:05 :D 17:38:17 ais523, see what I mean? 17:38:33 what does the *~ represent? 17:39:19 ais523, a glob 17:39:21 -!- Corun has joined. 17:39:23 for backup files 17:39:27 foo.c~ 17:39:28 for example 17:39:34 well, I backup my files into a dedicated backup directory 17:39:43 ais523, can't be arsed to set that up 17:39:49 I started that practice after accidentally typing rm * one time too often 17:39:56 now the backups are elsewhere, I can restore from them 17:40:01 and get the second most recent version 17:40:04 which is normally good enough 17:43:23 -!- tusho_ has joined. 17:48:19 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving."). 17:49:57 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1""). 18:00:12 new fingerprint idea, would like feedback,,,, 18:00:15 "EXEC" 0x45584543 18:00:15 A ( V n -- ) - Execute command at vector n times from current 18:00:15 location, IP will be pointed at the A 18:00:15 B ( V n -- ) - Like A but IP will be reset each iteration 18:00:16 G ( V -- ) - Set position of IP to delta 18:00:18 K ( n -- ) - what k should have been, will skip following 18:00:20 instruction if it is the iterated one 18:00:21 -!- tusho has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:00:22 R ( n -- ) - Like K but IP is reset after each iteration 18:00:24 X ( cmd n -- ) - execute command on stack n times 18:02:08 -!- alexbobp has joined. 18:04:28 MikeRiley, hm 18:04:56 MikeRiley, this is "Variations of k in C flat"? ;P 18:05:07 yep... 18:05:17 MikeRiley, sure why not 18:05:31 then we can have a k that we would all like to have... 18:05:33 MikeRiley, X got some problems maybe 18:05:36 plus a few other fun variations.. 18:05:39 parameters 18:05:41 for that command 18:05:45 parameters would be above the command 18:05:47 not sure how it will be handled 18:05:51 above? 18:05:59 parameters *for* command 18:06:01 yep....cmd would be popped from the stack 18:06:02 not for X 18:06:09 so below? 18:06:12 yes.... 18:06:18 ah 18:06:33 so the stack would appear as if the command came from Funge-space... 18:06:38 ah yes 18:06:51 damn cd burning failed 18:06:53 damn damn 18:07:00 hate when that happens!!! :( 18:07:28 "internal error: verification job didn't find specified track on CD".... 18:09:24 maybe 8x instead of 16x will help 18:09:26 * AnMaster tries 18:10:02 bbl guests 18:24:18 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 18:25:59 -!- RedDak has joined. 18:27:54 hello! I just finished a new implementation for arrays in brainfuck. The array can be of ANY size and can store more than one byte in each position. 18:28:01 cool 18:28:49 and they occupy n*k space 18:29:00 n is the size, k bytes/place. 18:29:02 ... More than one byte in each position?!? 18:29:06 well not n*k exactly. 18:29:09 Ah. 18:29:18 more than one byte in each indexed position 18:29:20 :-) 18:29:21 Using more than one cell for each position. 18:29:30 That is fucking awesome. 18:29:33 of course... :-D it's not a compression algo 18:30:15 In fact it is a Lua script that creates the code needed to read and write to the array after you give it n and k 18:30:26 i'll paste it... just a minute. 18:30:56 Tritonio_, oh my 18:30:58 :P 18:31:07 Tritonio_, rewrite that script in brainfuck 18:31:08 :P 18:31:11 Um. 18:31:20 http://pastebin.com/m2e5b786a 18:31:24 pikhq, array variables is one thing I wanted in Def-BF 18:31:32 AnMaster, that would be really interesting! 18:31:49 So, the code needed to write to the array depends upon the size of the array... 18:31:52 pikhq, otherwise there is no way to create arrays in Def-BF as high level compiler could assign something else to same memory place 18:32:22 AnMaster, if I do it in FBF or in Calamari's Basic does it count as a brainfuck script? :-P 18:32:28 New BF commands: (...): execute ..., unless you have good reason not to. {...}: hope that ..., if run, would end on a non-zero cell. 18:32:33 Tritonio_, Def-BF is for system programming btw 18:32:36 Tritonio_: PEBBLE! :p 18:32:45 Tritonio_, brainfuck with jumps + some other stuff 18:32:49 system programming? 18:32:55 RodgerTheGreat and pikhq invented it 18:32:59 That would actually be, well, not too hard to insert into PEBBLE. 18:32:59 Tritonio_, yeah like kernels... 18:32:59 Tritonio_: writing OS' 18:33:03 I didn't invent it... 18:33:19 aaaah the brainfuck OS? 18:33:23 yup 18:33:25 pikhq, but see the issue with Def-BF and arrays 18:33:30 RodgerTheGreat, you too ^ 18:33:45 you could use my implementation to do memory allocation. You could use a really huge table. 18:33:55 RodgerTheGreat, you can't do arrays in current Def-BF I think. Why? Because you can't know where high level compiler will place variables 18:33:56 I wrote the initial spec when we were originally discussing an Eso-OS a while back, and then pikhq drummed up some fresh interest 18:33:57 AnMaster: Ever heard of malloc? :p 18:34:00 memory allocation by the OS, i mean. 18:34:06 nooooo 18:34:08 pikhq, how will you implement it in Def-BF? 18:34:12 AnMaster: ohho- you're wrong 18:34:21 RodgerTheGreat, oh? 18:34:26 one sec 18:34:29 Same way you do in C. 18:34:33 ;) 18:34:35 Wait, I thought that the whole OS except of a small part is written in brainfuck 18:34:45 http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1217352754.html 18:34:45 pikhq, yes but you need to know where the static variables will be 18:35:00 RodgerTheGreat, no that isn't the issue 18:35:05 Tritonio_: There are multiple Brainfuck OS'. 18:35:09 ^ and as pikhq said you can allocate in the same way as any language 18:35:12 This one is for one of them. 18:35:16 RodgerTheGreat, the issue here is creating variables with larger than one cell 18:35:26 globals are easy and predefined, local variables are placed on a "stack" 18:35:36 RodgerTheGreat, yes global arrays 18:35:39 how do you make them? 18:35:54 I will do some more debugging later. I haven't tryied tables larger than 256^2 and I haven't tried if it works for more than one byte per position... 18:36:01 and if you write a malloc() in Def-BF, how do you know what memory is safe to allocate from 18:36:04 and what isn't? 18:36:09 RodgerTheGreat, ! 18:36:12 I have a hand-compiled high-level -> low level example that demonstrates function calling conventions 18:36:34 AnMaster: This is actually *exactly the same* as in C. 18:36:44 RodgerTheGreat, function calling ABI would be implementation specific 18:36:51 pikhq, and I don't know what that is, tell me! 18:37:11 the kernel need to know where the variables in question are stored 18:37:16 so it can avoid them in malloc 18:37:32 And the kernel knows that, because it loaded all of them into memory. 18:37:37 from the kernel's perspective, all memory is a hugeass tape 18:37:52 and you'd then have allocation records and things just like in a normal OS 18:38:08 Rodger gets it. 18:39:45 Anyways, the kernel knows where the variables are because those variables are marked in the data section of the binary. 18:39:47 in all likelihood a real esoOS would work something like JavaOS, with a kernel and several language interpreters written in compiled Def-BF, and then everything else made on top of these facilities 18:40:06 oh well 18:40:14 'course, there's no reason you can't do standard binary loading at runtime this way either 18:40:29 this is pretty standard stuff when writing an OS 18:40:31 It loads those binaries into memory, sticking the data section wherever the kernel declares that it will go. 18:40:40 yep 18:40:51 Then, as far as malloc goes? The kernel defines an area where the heap goes. 18:40:53 hm 18:40:57 as well as patching addresses with the offset it's loaded at in memory 18:40:58 right 18:41:14 The userspace malloc() function assigns addresses out of the process's heap. 18:41:49 malloc() uses the mmap and brk system calls to change the size of the heap when needed. 18:42:42 And, yeah, this is mundane in the OS development world. 18:49:28 morning! :D 18:54:04 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:54:06 goodmorning psygnisfive. 18:54:17 AHH! 18:54:20 WHO ARE YOU?1 18:54:27 ME? 18:54:38 YES 18:54:39 O_O 18:54:44 (btw the new implementation can be used for multidimensional arrays.) 18:55:37 Tritonio_: Single dimension arrays can be used for multi-dimensional arrays. 18:55:58 -!- MikeRiley has quit ("Leaving"). 18:55:59 Actually, single dimension arrays can be used for any data structure. 18:56:34 yes but it's fairly easy with this implementation because of the multiple indexes. 18:57:06 but every dimension except the first should have size 256^something 18:58:20 -!- moozilla has joined. 18:58:33 -!- megatron has joined. 19:02:49 integers can be used for any data structure 19:03:27 Well, yes... 19:03:42 That's because integers + a turing machine can implement arrays. :p 19:04:47 arrays suck, graphs are the shit 19:05:41 graphs are fun 19:05:47 ooh 19:05:48 oklopol 19:05:51 what about ... 19:05:54 ASSOCIATIVE GRAPHS 19:06:24 What about associative stacks? 19:06:25 :p 19:07:37 associative gracks 19:07:45 now what are associative graphs? 19:07:48 dunno 19:07:51 you tell me 19:07:53 :) 19:09:24 oklopol: i said tell me 19:12:01 -!- lament has joined. 19:13:24 LAMENT; 19:13:26 HOW I LAMENT 19:13:30 YOUR PASSING AWAY 19:13:34 IT IS GOOD YOU ARE BACK. 19:13:38 i be an poet 19:13:50 verily! 19:14:05 is that a programming language? Because it could be. 19:14:11 my friend, whose box i normally irc from, has destructively updated it 19:14:20 LAMENT; 19:14:21 HOW I LAMENT 19:14:24 catastrophically improved 19:14:25 YOUR BOX'S PASSING AWAY 19:14:28 IT IS GOOD YOU ARE BACK. 19:14:32 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:14:36 it's flexible! 19:14:48 lament: did your friend update the security, or what? 19:15:03 alexbobp: The flux capacitators, duh. 19:15:07 he kinda killed everything 19:15:16 i should stop using his box 19:15:26 Why is #irp so empty? 19:15:31 set up my own i guess 19:15:39 alexbobp: because that joke got old several years ago 19:15:46 lament: good reason, I guess 19:16:12 lament: I bet that whatever computer you are using to connect to his computer, you could just use to connect to freenode directly :P 19:16:31 alexbobp: having an always-on connection is very nice 19:17:07 constantly joining and leaving is a hassle 19:17:10 and you lose stuff 19:17:19 and people can't message you while you're away 19:17:19 lament: good point. Do you not have a broadband Intertube connection? 19:17:37 if people want to message you while you're away, they should use email :P 19:17:37 sure 19:17:41 no 19:17:43 they should use irc 19:17:51 if they normally talk to me on irc 19:17:56 well, okay. 19:18:02 because that's what's more convenient to both them and me 19:18:11 Perhaps we should just use msgserv? :p 19:18:20 Or was it memoserv? 19:18:36 i'd need a linux box so i could run screen on it 19:18:40 whatever it is, it shall be coded in befunge 19:18:49 lament: what sort of box do you currently have, if not a linux one? 19:18:55 os x 19:19:04 ah, well, that's not to bad. You can't run screen on it? 19:19:09 no clue 19:19:16 i guess i can 19:19:20 run the terminal, try it! 19:19:26 if not, you can probably get it with DarwinPorts. 19:19:27 yep, it works 19:19:30 as does irssi 19:19:42 i'll just use my home box then. 19:19:44 lol@not too bad 19:19:50 lament: there's an irssi thing 19:19:51 called macirssi 19:19:54 which is basically irrsi. 19:19:56 in a cocoa window. 19:19:58 gay 19:20:01 (it actually runs irssi) 19:20:08 lament: well, it's just regular irssi 19:20:12 the whole point of using irssi is that it runs in screen 19:20:19 just with keyboard shortcuts 'n stuff. 19:20:20 but yeah. 19:20:21 i guess. 19:20:59 btw, anybody here puts their home directory in a VCS? 19:21:24 No, but I should. 19:21:36 If I had a sufficiently large hard drive, I would. 19:23:31 i'm seriously considering it 19:23:38 os x has this thing called time machine 19:23:52 but using a vcs seems less magical 19:24:37 * pikhq also badly needs to organise his home directory 19:24:43 I'll do that when I get to college. 19:24:58 (can't now; my computer and I are in a different state) 19:25:21 Though I could probably start by organising my Nonlogic home directory. 19:26:29 lament: I keep my resume and a lot of my text documents in rcs, but I just use an rdiff backup for my home directory 19:26:55 lament: time machine is nice in the way it integrates with apps 19:27:07 is it like Vista's shadow copy? 19:27:08 (e.g. press it on iphoto and itunes and it'll do what you expect) 19:27:11 (not that I condone the use of vista) 19:27:19 alexbobp: it's an automatic backup system that lets you browse old versions 19:27:22 and selectively copy them back 19:27:25 e.g. open iphoto 19:27:26 click it 19:27:28 tusho_: okay, so just like shadow copy 19:27:28 travel back in time 19:27:31 get a deleted photo 19:27:33 and bring it back 19:27:36 yeah, time machine sounds nice for those specific apps 19:27:40 you can also do that with an rdiff backup :P 19:27:47 alexbobp: that doesn't integrate with apps. 19:28:02 * pikhq also needs a decent way of doing backups... 19:28:10 with time machine you can just press it, slide up, pick a photo, and drag it back into a certain category on the current iphoto 19:28:14 in one operation 19:28:20 putting stuff in VCS can get messy if you forget to commit for a long time 19:28:24 Of course, sticking it in CVS, SVN, or Git would make backups easy. 19:28:41 tusho_: wouldn't that only work with apps made by Apple or specifically to support the thang? 19:28:48 Get a big friggin' hard drive, rsync the repository over to it every week or so. 19:28:56 alexbobp: Well duh, it needs support code for the integration. 19:29:04 If there is no support code, then you can just press it in finder 19:29:05 and do it with files 19:29:14 But, there's always the pressure to implement it 19:29:17 i guess the biggest difficulty with VCS would be in telling it which files to ignore 19:29:23 so an awful lot of apps that it makes sense for do it already 19:29:23 and then actually remembering those rules :) 19:29:30 tusho_: I see no reason to have app integration. Unlike the target audience for a mac, I know where my programs keep their files anyway. 19:30:02 alexbobp: It's clever because you're belittling the intelligence of people who have better things to do than sit around a file system doing wizardry all day when they want to get a file back. 19:30:03 Ha, ha. 19:30:11 lament: With SVN, unless you specifically add a file, it's ignored. 19:30:31 then you'd get pages upon pages of ? files in each svn report 19:30:41 So? 19:30:50 i guess that's when you notice and create ignore rules for them 19:30:55 * pikhq nods 19:30:58 tusho_: I run a program called "keep". It's with KDE and does it all automatically. I dunno where you think that takes a lot of time or anything. 19:31:04 oh and another thing 19:31:10 there're two sets of files 19:31:12 alexbobp: " Unlike the target audience for a mac, I know where my programs keep their files anyway." 19:31:13 It's basically a frontend for cron and some command line backup tool. 19:31:14 that i want versioned 19:31:29 tusho_: well yeah. If I want to restore my firefox profile, I say "Hey keep, restore ~/.firefox". 19:31:31 The reason for integration is that *it makes it a 2-second process to get a file back* and you are just insulting OS X users' intelligence without justification. 19:31:35 I don't need integration with firefox. 19:31:40 That's just as fast. 19:31:46 various config files like .bash_profile that i want replicated among different systems, and various files like photos that i want to keep on my system (but still version) 19:31:57 is this solvable nicely? 19:32:15 other than using two different VCS to version the same directory with different ignore rules :) 19:32:19 tusho_: By the way, I'm not insulting mac users' intelligence. I know plenty of smart mac users. I'm just saying the OS is designed to support people with a much lower intelligence. 19:32:38 lament: rsync 19:32:41 "I'm just saying the OS is designed to support people with a much lower intelligence." You are a pretentious asshat who judges people's intelligence by their willingness to learn the innards of a computer. 19:32:50 intelligence has nothing to do with knowing where files are kept 19:32:54 curiosity, perhaps 19:33:03 lament: Or use a decentralized RCS like darcs, and all computers can pull patches from eachother 19:33:15 alexbobp: not sure how that solves the problem i described 19:33:54 tusho_: sorry, I was referring to a specific subset of intelligence. I chose my words poorly. What I should have said was that the target audience of a mac doesn't give a shit about computers and will not willingly learn about how they work. 19:34:21 alexbobp: I would say you have a rather skewed version of the target audience. 19:34:32 lament: Well, you said you want to be able to update a file on one of the computers and then propagate it to the others, right? 19:35:21 tusho_: Most of the mac users I've seen are artists and such with no interest in how computers work, they just want to check email, edit video, etc. Also, if you watch Steve Jobs' keynote speeches, he talks down to the audience big time. 19:35:56 i don't give a shit where programs keep their files, and in my opinion a modern os shouldn't even let a user know about as low-level things as files. 19:36:01 and i'm a fucking genius! 19:36:05 alexbobp: no, that's not what i said. 19:36:26 oklopol: seconded! 19:36:40 oklopol++. I do know where programs keep their files, I just don't think it means fuck all. 19:36:47 oklopol: I don't know what you mean by "modern," but if my OS tried to hide any details from me, I'd bitchslap it. 19:36:47 I also agree that files are a pretty darned low-level abstraction. 19:36:55 files are silly 19:37:04 does firefox keep each bookmark in a separate file? i bet it doesn't 19:37:12 lament: it keeps them in an xml file 19:37:16 alexbobp: see, that's wrong 19:37:19 to use files 'elegantly' 19:37:19 that means... firefox could benefit from time machine integration! 19:37:20 it'd be 19:37:26 reiserFS? 19:37:27 bookmarks/Bookmark\ name 19:37:34 lament: indeed it could 19:37:39 you could restore only some bookmarks 19:37:39 alexbobp: so you know where firefox keeps data, but it would not help you recover a specific bookmark that you deleted 19:37:43 instead of 'hey keep, gimme the old file' 19:37:46 and then merging it manually 19:37:49 alexbobp: but with time machine integration, you could 19:37:50 which is sooooooooo much fun 19:37:51 and so fsat 19:37:53 *fast 19:38:12 lament: Sure it would. If I wanted to recover a specific bookmark, I'd tell my revision control system to backtrack the patch where I deleted that. 19:38:31 lament: If I'm not using RCS, but I'm using rdiff backups, and I remember when I deleted it, I can revert to just before that. 19:38:47 alexbobp: then you would lose all bookmarks you added afterwards 19:39:05 lament: Or I could just open the backup file from the correct time, and copypaste that bookmark into the current file. 19:39:07 alexbobp: would you mind if an os hid the info about where in your hd a file exists, exactly? i doubt that, because as everything is on a higher level of abstraction, why would you give a shit 19:39:11 alexbobp: exactly 19:39:15 "lament: Or I could just open the backup file from the correct time, and copypaste that bookmark into the current file." 19:39:16 EXACTLY 19:39:17 alexbobp: so you'd have to do much more work 19:39:21 That's a WASTE OF FUCKING TIME 19:39:22 similarly, i don't think there's any use to have serialized binary files 19:39:23 I should never have to do that. 19:39:24 alexbobp: how does that correlate with higher intelligence? 19:39:29 Why when I can just go back using time machine, and copy over a folder? 19:39:31 that's like so 50's 19:39:31 oklopol: As it turns out, in both Linux and Windows you can look up where exactly on an HD the file exists. 19:39:32 That takes 2 seconds. 19:39:34 You have to know the XML format. 19:39:36 Manually merge it. 19:39:38 etc... 19:39:42 alexbobp: yes, but is that at all useful? 19:39:46 In your case. 19:39:52 lament: It's not more work, it's just as easy but requires more expertise. 19:40:01 alexbobp: no, it is more work 19:40:01 EXPERTISE 19:40:08 alexbobp: it will take more time 19:40:09 I'M AN EXPERT BECAUSE I CAN MERGE XML FILES 19:40:16 lament: I'm sorry, you're wrong, it won't, and insisting won't make you right. 19:40:21 I AM SO FUCKING ELITE AND YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS BECAUSE YOU DON'T SPENT YOUR WHOLE DAY MERGING XML FILES 19:40:26 INSTEAD YOU JUST DRAG ACROSS BOOKMARKS 19:40:27 tusho_: having some expertise does not make one an expert 19:40:30 alexbobp: oh, okay then. 19:40:30 WTF IS UP WITH THAT NOOBS 19:40:31 HAHAHAH 19:40:33 tusho_: stop typing in all caps you asshat 19:40:49 alexbobp: telling _me_ to stop being an asshat...? 19:40:58 You're saying people who don't spend all time merging a custom XML format have less expertise. 19:41:08 tusho_: Uh, no, I never said that. 19:41:11 yes. you did. 19:41:16 "it's just as easy but requires more expertise." 19:41:31 tusho_: Quote me on where I said anything about "all time" or even it taking longer at all. 19:41:48 It's a waste of effort. 19:41:54 it's not effort! 19:41:55 I can also guarantee that one of these takes more time: 19:42:03 1. Click time machine. Scroll back. Drag bookmark over. 19:42:22 2. Restore file. Find correct bookmark. Copy to current file, making sure not to break the format. Save. Restart and hope for the best. 19:42:28 I can also tell you that it's #2. 19:42:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:42:40 tusho_: I can do #2 with one line of grep and sed. 19:42:52 alexbobp: It still takes longer than click, swish, drag. 19:43:00 And it's also a whole lot less convenient. 19:43:06 alexbobp: by the way, are you guaranteed to have stored the old version of the bookmark file at all? 19:43:14 tusho_: mice are slow, and you still have to find the bookmark where you lost in the blob of deleted bookmarks 19:43:21 Mice aren't slow, by the way. 19:43:24 It's a common myth. 19:43:28 (Go read a Plan9 paper.) 19:43:35 lament: It depends on whether there was a backup between me making the bookmark and deleting it. 19:43:42 alexbobp: right, exactly 19:43:48 tusho_: My hands are on the keyboard most of the time, so it takes time to move them to the mouse. 19:43:48 with time machine this would happen automatically 19:44:03 lament: does time machine backup every time a file is changed? 19:44:04 alexbobp: Zomg! Using a mouse incorrectly is slower! 19:44:06 Duh. 19:44:14 alexbobp: i believe so 19:44:16 Learn to use a mouse with a keyboard efficiently and you will be faster. 19:44:29 tusho_: I like just using the keyboard when I can, how is that "wrong"? 19:44:34 tusho_: I don't need a mouse for most of what I do. 19:44:39 alexbobp: Claiming that mice are slow is incorrect. 19:44:41 I'm typing right now, and I also code, and read email and stuff 19:44:57 How about this: 19:44:57 you're both wrong 19:45:02 Mice are slow* 19:45:12 mice are fast for accessing an arbitrary point on the screen 19:45:18 * for the way I use my computer. Your mileage may vary. This disclaimer necessary due to tusho_. 19:45:22 I just find I don't have to do that often 19:45:50 Keyboards are slow. 19:46:05 fortunately, fingers are slower 19:46:06 lament: only if your hand is on the mouse 19:46:08 editing text without a mouse is a huge pain 19:46:17 lament: editing text without a mouse works fine, actually 19:46:22 as is surfing the web 19:46:23 I rarely, if ever, use the mouse for editing text 19:46:28 Oh oh, alexbobp, what editor do you use? 19:46:32 Let's start another holy war. 19:46:33 tusho_: vim 19:46:42 alexbobp: 38d8ah4naodu 19:46:51 tusho_: I don't think that's a real editor :P 19:46:52 BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP 19:47:00 it would be fun to have like ten keys for a mouse, you have the whole screen selected, and pressing one of the keys splits the screen in nine pieces, and chooses one of them for the next selection 19:47:00 hello wBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP 19:47:03 BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP 19:47:08 and another key for getting upwards 19:47:12 alexbobp: i find it very difficult to navigate to some random portion of the text, already on the screen, without a mouse 19:47:18 oklopol: that has been implemented 19:47:20 with the keyboard 19:47:23 tusho_: probably 19:47:27 it divides it into 4 spaces 19:47:28 oklopol: There are tools that do that. I know Dragon NaturallySpeaking does that with voice cues. 19:47:29 you can choose one 19:47:31 and divide that further 19:47:35 until you get in the vicinity 19:47:39 where you can precisely move and click 19:47:43 lament: okay, that's nice, but I don't. I don't see how that means I'm doing it wrong. 19:47:46 that is, it's -much- faster to move the hand to the mouse, click on the correct position and move the hand back to the keyboard than it is to try to navigate there using the keyboard alone 19:48:17 alexbobp: i never said you're doing it wrong. I'm getting more and more convinced that you're a supergenius. 19:48:34 oklopol: you should implement an x window manager with all your crazy ui ideas. 19:48:35 tusho_: implementing it takes about a minute, i'm more interested in how handy that would be 19:48:35 I'd use it 19:48:38 do you have info about that? 19:48:41 and apparently it's pretty handy 19:48:45 handy as in fun 19:48:48 not for specific moving 19:48:52 but getting to the 'right place' roughly fast 19:49:00 indeed 19:49:07 you probably instantly calculate the number of words you need to move forward or backward and move to the correct position with something like 237w 19:49:34 trying to get to the position you want in vim is a lot like golf 19:49:39 lament: I just need to count the number of lines, and you don't wasd in vim :P 19:49:42 first you do big jumps, then little jumps 19:49:44 what I'd do is look at the line number and type gg 19:49:45 i have quite a lot of ui ideas, but as with all my ideas, they've been thought of, implemented and gotten bored with before i was born. 19:50:17 Deewiant: that doesn't get you to the correct position. It just gets you to the correct line. 19:50:24 lament: I would like a copy of your version of vim. Mine apparently is not as much like a first person shooter as yours. 19:50:27 alexbobp: 'w' means 'move to the end of the word'. 19:50:36 lament: ah, okay 19:50:40 lament: I just use ijkl 19:50:42 after that, getting to the correct position is quick 19:50:42 erm hjkl 19:50:48 haha 19:50:51 you don't use w? 19:50:56 tusho_: should I? 19:51:02 ok, alexbobp has been using vim for...24 hours, I'll say 19:51:03 I use W the most, probably 19:51:06 if he just uses hjkl to navigate 19:51:13 Bah. 19:51:13 24 hours is pushing it really. 19:51:18 tusho_: Lot more hours than that, actually, but I still find it faster than moving my hand to the mouse 19:51:20 I use stne to navigate. ;-) 19:51:22 Emacs, I say! 19:51:38 alexbobp: don't you have to move your hand to the esc key to use hjkl? 19:51:47 lament: when using vim I use ctrl-c 19:51:49 as opposed to esc 19:51:53 tusho_: shush 19:51:58 lament: If "move my hand" means "move my pinky" then yes. 19:52:01 tusho_: you know that, and i know that, but i doubt alexbobp knows that. 19:52:14 lament: well yeah. hjkl! 19:52:23 hm 19:52:27 I was about to ask how anyone could use Vi without moving Esc to, say, Caps Lock... 19:52:29 Now I know. 19:52:38 i can't press Esc without moving my hand from the home row 19:52:39 I use Ctrl-] 19:52:46 maybe i need to get one of them happy hacking keyboards 19:52:46 except that it doesn't work on Windows :-P 19:52:51 I never could use ctrl=caps-lock. 19:52:53 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:52:53 Just not comfortable for me. 19:52:55 then i will be a real hacker 19:52:59 (Then again, my hands aren't exactly big..) 19:52:59 I use backspace=caps-lock 19:53:14 Caps-Lock does not exist here. 19:53:17 tusho_: even less comfortable than "real" ctrl? 19:53:29 lament: I type really bizzarely, so ctrl is comfortable for me 19:53:30 * alexbobp realizes he needs to revisit vimtutor 19:53:35 tusho_: oh :) 19:54:00 * alexbobp deletes multiple lines by holding down the "d" key 19:54:22 alexbobp: Well, you're truly showing your mastery of interface design. 19:54:27 tusho_: i saw an awesome keyboard from an old mac 19:54:47 Bah; use C-k to delete multiple lines. 19:54:48 tusho_: Did I ever say I was good at vim? All I said was that I'm better at it than I am with a mouse. 19:54:57 it had ctrl and capslock where nature intended, and capslock would actually stick down when pressed 19:54:58 Or, if you know the exact number, C-u number C-k 19:55:00 Wheee. 19:55:02 so cool 19:55:08 i still regret not stealing it :D 19:55:25 (it would need some work to make modern computers talk to it, though) 19:55:40 okay, you guys are distracting and I have to get back to work 19:55:41 tty1 19:55:53 why are you on irc if you are trying to work lament 19:55:54 er 19:55:55 alexbobp: 19:57:09 tusho_: stop pinging me! 19:57:23 alexbobp: 20:07:29 lament: I have seen suns with ctrl and caps the "other" way round 20:07:45 yeah 20:07:50 Hmm. I want a 3d iterated game theory simulator. 20:07:53 would be nice to have a keyboard like that 20:08:02 you could buy one? 20:08:03 It's easy. 20:08:05 xmodmap. 20:08:07 Voila. 20:08:08 no 20:08:12 or use a macro keyboard? 20:08:20 there's a little groove between capslock and A 20:08:30 Not *quite* the same, obviously, but it does give you a feel for what it's like. 20:08:35 that groove is there because they realized that that was a stupid place to put capslock 20:08:40 so they made it harder to hit accidentally 20:08:46 but not hard enough 20:08:50 I just have Caps Lock set to be a third Control, myself. 20:08:50 ctrl doesn't need that groove 20:09:04 i do have capslock set to ctrl 20:09:10 but that groove is annoying :) 20:09:11 what is capslock good for? 20:09:18 Nothing. 20:09:18 nothing 20:09:20 rare occasions 20:09:27 lament: pry key off, rotate 180deg, put back on 20:09:27 Well, except for sounding like an idiot. 20:09:28 i use capslock 20:09:31 a whole bunch of buttons would be good on rare occasions 20:09:33 e.g. for sql 20:09:42 but the keyboard doesn't have those buttons 20:09:52 aye 20:09:57 keyboards should have more buttons 20:09:59 tusho_: Next man to make a language which is all-caps gets shot. 20:09:59 like, i want a smiley button that types :) 20:10:05 Even in the esolang world. 20:10:06 because :) is three whole keypresses! 20:10:09 pikhq: :D 20:10:30 pikhq: why "next"? 20:10:39 pikhq: you mean lolcode people shouldn't be shot? 20:10:53 well, INTERCAL's use of all-caps was standard for its time 20:10:54 lament: Because I don't want to start on a killing spree. 20:11:17 And the LOLcode people need to be shot for reasons other than just its all-caps. 20:11:22 pikhq: really? 20:11:34 SimonRC: sorry, friendly fire 20:11:51 SimonRC: You're first up. 20:11:54 LOLcode is NOT friendly fire. 20:12:07 pikhq: huh? 20:12:27 Sorry; thought you were saying "but I am involved in LOLcode". 20:12:53 SimonRC is involved in LOLcode - he helped make the 1.2 specification horrible. 20:12:56 all I did was try to sabotage it 20:12:58 Good undercover work. 20:13:07 and that was the first version only 20:13:19 hm 20:13:25 maybe you did deserve the shooting after all. 20:13:39 lament: what? He tried to sabotage it 20:13:45 That's a noble duty! 20:14:30 Good job. 20:14:36 That's not being responsible for it. 20:14:37 how can you sabotage lolcode? 20:14:57 That's taking the shotgun into your own hands and firing. 20:14:57 :p 20:16:38 Complaining that LOLCODE is a bad esolang is like complaining that a radio play has poor illustrations. 20:16:56 does lolcode have zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms? 20:17:42 you've been hanging aroud with that video compression crowd again haven't you? 20:18:05 video compression has the world's best technobabble by far, IME 20:18:21 no, that's just normal haskell stuff :) 20:18:29 yes, "normal" :-P 20:18:41 * SimonRC digs it up. 20:19:02 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Zygohistomorphic_prepromorphisms 20:19:12 "Hey, $developer, your new adaptive quantization patch results in a corrupt stream when interlaced encoding is activated! We use interlaced encoding for our live broadcasts, so though your adaptive quantization patch looks astounding, we can't use it until you fix this." 20:19:21 "Logarithmically-scaled variance-based complexity-masking adaptive quantization with Hadamard-weighted automatic sensitivity." 20:19:26 Hadamard-thresholded rate-distortion optimized inter-macroblock partition decision" 20:19:32 Rate-distortion optimized quantizer lookahead with adaptive range and scenecut detection." 20:19:37 SimonRC: Put that shit in a markov chain generator! 20:20:02 SimonRC: Actually, complaining that LOLcode is a bad esolang is like complaining that a rotten grilled cheese sandwich has poor illustrations. 20:20:23 Deewiant: that totally makes me want to learn haskell 20:20:25 from here: http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/7711/143632.aspx 20:20:46 RodgerTheGreat: it's actually real 20:20:46 RodgerTheGreat: alas, that is several hoops past comprehending monads 20:20:56 albeit only used by the guy who does crazy shit with comonads 20:21:02 and monomorphisms and shit 20:21:03 pikhq: indeed, it isn't supposed to 20:21:23 isn't that only half-serious anyway 20:21:25 wouldn't a better name for "comonads" be "duonads"? 20:21:31 SimonRC: LOLcode just sucks, to be perfectly honest. 20:21:38 SimonRC: all those quotes are pretty legible, i think... 20:21:47 -!- MikeRiley has joined. 20:22:05 pikhq: yeah, it looks like a shitty skin for BASIC, really. Not terribly creative in semantics 20:22:13 RodgerTheGreat: co- is used everywhere in math for the dual 20:22:31 I didn't mean "better" as "more accurate" 20:22:34 or at least, in some places 20:22:39 I think it'd be a more entertaining name 20:23:23 RodgerTheGreat: once I did some wacky gadt stuff in haskell to implement monads 20:23:29 since Monad was taken I named it Gonad 20:23:31 RodgerTheGreat: Goshdarnit people; LOLCODE was never intended to have interesting semantics. 20:23:38 when I asked #haskell for help, cue 'you just want us to look at your gonads' 20:23:39 tusho_: that's the spirit 20:23:50 it is supposed to have interesting keywords and to a lesser extent syntax 20:23:51 "can anyone look at my gonads? they're broken" 20:24:08 SimonRC: it doesn't. 20:24:15 correction 20:24:16 SimonRC: yeah, I know. it's just a clusterfuck of python and VB people thinking they're being "creative" 20:24:25 it is supposed to have *lolcat* keywords 20:24:34 RodgerTheGreat: do they think that? 20:24:40 SimonRC: Yes they do 20:24:42 not entirely unlike everyone who screams "whitespace LOL" when somebody mentions "strange languages" 20:25:04 RodgerTheGreat: Those people are pretty clever. 20:25:08 It's the ones who mention Brainfuck that are the problem. 20:25:37 BF is stranger than most languages people come across. 20:25:46 whitespace is a trivial isomorphism of BF. you're either being sarcastic or you're an idiot. 20:26:03 um, whitespace isn't based on BF 20:26:05 RodgerTheGreat: Whitespace isn't a BF cypher. 20:26:11 Also, it's pretty obscure as these things go. 20:26:38 RodgerTheGreat: "python and vb"? what's that supposed to mean? :D 20:26:51 * RodgerTheGreat references esolang 20:27:13 * SimonRC references the author of WS, who he has known for a few years 20:27:16 there's nothing wrong with whitespace other than popularity 20:27:23 oh, dang. I'm mistaken. I think I came to that conclusion because it's encoding scheme looked a lot like Ook! at first. 20:27:23 whitespace isn't even popular! 20:27:27 :P 20:27:29 *clunk* namedropping 20:28:45 I can't program in whitespace because I have to use SNOW on all my programs... 20:28:55 tusho_: hey, whitespaces are everywhere! *ten* whitespaces in this line only! 20:28:56 alexbobp: "SNOW"? 20:29:02 olsner: *g* 20:29:08 SimonRC: http://www.darkside.com.au/snow/ 20:29:30 tusho_: on the source or the binaries? 20:29:39 SimonRC: It's a stego tool, except in no way hard to detect :P 20:29:40 SimonRC: source, I presume 20:29:44 this sentence has seven spaces and eight words 20:29:48 SimonRC: whitespace in binaries _generally_ stops them running 20:29:51 :P 20:29:55 SimonRC: it would have to be the source. Modifying whitespace in binaries would mangle them. 20:30:03 er, what tusho_ said 20:30:05 alexbobp: that was the joke I was making 20:30:14 SimonRC: it wasn't ... very funny 20:30:15 :P 20:30:16 alexbobp: you 'have' to use it? 20:30:35 lament: It is absolutely necessary. 20:30:46 I have quotas for the data I have to hide, and I barely have enough places to hide it. 20:31:11 ah. 20:31:26 Hmm, "SNOW" is too readily discoverable by the fraction of the populatio that habitually highlight random blocks of text as they read. 20:31:29 alexbobp: eh? 20:31:40 SimonRC: we could shoot all those people 20:31:48 SimonRC: yeah, it's not good stego 20:32:13 SimonRC: I do that! 20:32:19 I hope not; one of them is the best comprehender of one of the systems I work on. 20:32:20 lament: good idea... we could also use nonbreaking spaces and murder everyone with a hex viewer! 20:32:21 Also I grab links and drag them 20:32:25 and leave go so they shoot back 20:32:26 same with images 20:32:33 also I often cmd-a and drag it around 20:32:37 in ff3 it gives me a little version of the page 20:32:39 under my cursor 20:32:44 nifty: http://www.darkside.com.au/snow/ 20:33:02 RodgerTheGreat: it's been mentioned :P 20:33:08 alexbobp: how about using unicode rtl characters 20:33:11 and reversing the text in them 20:33:12 lol 20:33:13 You could probably get a good way of steganography on binaries by sticking stuff in .data and .bss... 20:33:14 :D 20:33:20 my mistake 20:33:25 tusho_: That somehow gets really crazy sometimes 20:33:28 tusho_: I've tried 20:33:31 yes it does 20:33:31 but yay 20:33:32 :D 20:33:33 it'd be fun 20:33:34 I came there in a pretty roundabout fashion 20:33:48 Though it'd be easiest (and most undetectable) to do stuff like that to encode a single message inside a whole installed OS. 20:34:32 pikhq: you already know *my* favorite place to hide data 20:34:41 Ah, yes. :D 20:34:51 RodgerTheGreat: umm, where 20:34:53 ? 20:35:05 Let's just say that Rodger knows the .tiff format way too well. 20:35:27 http://rodger.nonlogic.org/PHP/Example.php <- go ahead and find out 20:35:37 ihm that thing 20:35:40 *oh 20:35:53 not again after last time 20:36:02 oh god 20:36:03 basil 20:36:07 i never did that 20:36:28 I did. 20:36:35 :) 20:36:45 it took pikhq about three days of swearing at me 20:37:02 * pikhq nods 20:37:09 RodgerTheGreat why did you make it a 403 20:37:15 it was more confusing as a 404 20:37:26 experience shows that I am shit at that sort of puzzle 20:37:27 it was always a 403 20:37:30 was it? 20:37:35 ok, I seem to remember a 404 20:37:35 they serve only to infuriate me 20:37:36 but ok 20:37:41 The first couple of pages are meant to be easy to get past. 20:37:44 I changed something else to give people a tiny hint, though 20:38:01 I'm especially fond of the Gulesfish. 20:38:19 gulesfish and basil are the most hideous, but gules is a great deal more clever 20:38:30 Absolutely. 20:38:42 gulesfish was quite nice 20:38:45 basil was just evil. 20:38:51 o.o 20:38:58 but, should you want me to quit this channel and never come back, a sufficiently large number of puzzless that everyone else can solve and I cannot would be one of the better ways to make it happen. 20:39:06 need moar intresting languages :| 20:39:12 SimonRC: we'll get right on it 20:39:40 SimonRC: Those puzzles are fucking hard; don't consider it a bad thing if you can't get them. 20:39:55 RodgerTheGreat: I'm getting a connection refused 20:40:07 alexbobp: that's the first hurdle# 20:40:18 SimonRC: ooh, is this a hacker game? 20:40:24 pikhq: so several other people here are capable of solving the damn things and I am not 20:40:25 no. 20:40:27 just a puzzle game 20:40:47 doesn't need any specialized tools 20:40:55 SimonRC: I'm not aware of many people in here that finished Basil. 20:41:05 I think 2 other people have finished Basil... 20:41:06 Ever. 20:41:17 (and one of those people may have cheated) 20:41:30 RodgerTheGreat: how can one cheat? 20:41:45 okay, so it's not UDP either 20:41:47 if you had admin access and could cat out my PHP files 20:41:58 ok 20:42:20 alexbobp: it's really trivial. 20:42:23 view the source... 20:42:40 tusho_: and no hints after the first page, please 20:42:40 And away you go. 20:42:43 RodgerTheGreat: that doesn't *solve* the puzzle as such, but in deed the app can't tell 20:42:44 RodgerTheGreat: sure 20:42:49 but he was going in totally the wrong way 20:42:50 wait a second 20:42:55 connection refused != 403 20:43:00 :D 20:43:01 connection refused = no connection was even made to the http server 20:43:02 :\ 20:44:10 but honestly, it's surprising how many people seem to find it perfectly normal to be getting apache error pages from "port 69" 20:44:44 RodgerTheGreat: I'm getting a connection refused on port 69 20:45:03 LMAO 20:45:13 alexbobp: you have completely ignored easy advice and hints from several people already, so I'm not helping you any more 20:45:14 hahahahaahhhahahahaa 20:45:14 alex@server-fo-shizzle:~$ nc rodger.nonlogic.org 69 20:45:14 rodger.nonlogic.org [208.64.37.45] 69 (?) : Connection refused 20:45:26 'server-fo-shizzle'? 20:45:33 tusho_: my server's name 20:45:39 RodgerTheGreat: I got the port 42 thing on the other thing 20:45:44 alexbobp: you're an elite h4x0r that's for sure 20:45:47 * pikhq laughs further 20:46:04 "You must be at least this geeky to go on further." 20:46:29 * alexbobp just realized those two hostnames have the same IP 20:47:02 *facepalm* 20:47:17 jesus 20:47:29 * alexbobp just got fucked in the brain 20:47:42 hey guys hpw about we talk about interesting languages? :D 20:47:42 :p 20:47:45 well, that's a little warmer 20:48:08 RodgerTheGreat: I bet it'll take him a while. Should be damned hilarious to watch, though. 20:48:15 agreed 20:48:24 "DO I HAVE TO BUY BASIL IRL TO BEAT THIS" 20:48:34 lmao 20:49:40 * pikhq shall go off to get the @!#%@ home; see ya in about an hour. 20:49:46 -!- pikhq has left (?). 20:49:49 one of these days, I should add some additional puzzles, but I'm not sure if I should put their trailheads after basil or make a diverging path, to be halfway humane 20:49:58 RodgerTheGreat: make it branch out 20:50:09 each 'milestone' branches out into, like, 2 possible paths 20:50:13 how many puzzles does it have? 20:50:19 and at the end you have like 10 paths 20:50:22 oklopol! :D 20:50:22 where do I find a brainfuck interpreter? 20:50:23 yeah, maybe have a "solve these x puzzles in any order" segment 20:50:26 and the last puzzle on each of them unifies them all to the last one 20:50:30 which is super-duper hard 20:51:02 naturally 20:51:42 RodgerTheGreat: maybe some of them will let you go -backwards-, but on another path 20:51:48 and you have to do some puzzles from all of the paths to do it 20:51:56 I'd love teaming up with one or two people to make a game like that, but it'd reduce my gleeful plotting time and my audience 20:51:56 so you sort of navigate it like a ladder with puzzles at each step 20:51:57 it shall divide people into the leet and the unleet 20:52:03 then add them all together for the final puzzle 20:52:07 you could make a team to do different paths 20:52:33 I don't like being the unleet, yet I do not generally like being the leet 20:53:19 tusho_: oh, don't worry- I have oodles of ideas floating around 20:53:41 I actually have a couple of pretty nasty tricks up my sleeves I haven't used in any puzzles yet 20:54:03 um, I fail at typeing 20:54:27 I don't like being the unleet, yet I do not generally manage to become the leet 20:57:27 simonrc: wha? 20:57:34 RodgerTheGreat: I see you're a mac user? 20:57:45 yes 20:57:47 basil is the one that at some point just becomes fucked up silly? 20:57:47 yeah rodger, mac pride :D 20:57:49 psygnisfive: at puzzles that most people cannot do 20:58:01 we have an awful lot of mac users in here 20:58:02 psygnisfive: fuck yeah 20:58:10 lament, me, psygnisfive, RodgerTheGreat ... 20:58:17 we have good taste, evidently ;) 20:58:17 RodgerTheGreat: I can tell because it craps ".DS_Store" all over the place :P 20:58:34 tusho_: since when do you use macs? 20:58:48 psygnisfive: um... since forever 20:58:52 huh. 20:58:55 december 2006 I think? 20:59:03 k 20:59:33 tusho_: it's a channel full of fags 20:59:51 just proves 21:00:00 macs are for fags, little children, and idiots. 21:00:08 * SimonRC resents the implication that he is a smoker 21:00:13 lament: oh, be nice, there's nothing wrong with being gay 21:00:27 lament = gay? 21:00:28 there is 21:00:30 you have to use a mac 21:00:34 psygnisfive: no, i'm an idiot. 21:00:38 oh 21:00:45 it'd be better if you were gay 21:00:56 be gay, lament. 21:01:34 lament: I know plenty of gay people who don't use a mac. 21:02:00 psygnisfive: no. 21:02:07 :( 21:02:17 * SimonRC curses homophobes 21:02:19 psygnisfive: i mean, i wish i could, but i don't think i can control it! 21:02:21 alexbobp: implication != equivalence 21:02:34 oklopol: (15:00:42) lament: you have to use a mac 21:02:36 them and their hatred has left no room for people that are actually scared of homosexuality 21:02:40 hmm right 21:02:47 or rather has left no word for it 21:02:56 simonrc: :D 21:03:05 fortunately I am not in that category as much as I used to be 21:03:32 working with someone who is gay has made me less twitchy around gay people 21:03:44 now I just need a blasck co-worker 21:03:46 *black 21:03:53 or a black gay coworker 21:04:00 heh 21:04:39 Or you could just watch the weathergay. 21:04:56 a black, gay, jewish coworker with a mullet. 21:05:04 MULLET? 21:05:09 http://youtube.com/watch?v=TT4XO3Hjp7M 21:05:09 on a BLACK MAN? 21:05:14 is that even POSSIBLE? 21:05:26 psygnisfive: If so, I want pictures! 21:05:27 it would be pretty gay! 21:05:38 it would be pretty ungay actually 21:08:11 RodgerTheGreat? 21:08:22 RodgerTheGreat: hello? 21:09:19 sorry 21:09:24 I'm inking something 21:09:35 ooh 21:09:37 what? 21:10:25 (as in, what are you inking?) 21:10:47 a short story 21:11:01 cool 21:11:03 anyway 21:11:21 you were saying that you thought someone might have cheated on the Basil puzzle? 21:12:53 *prod* but they had to be an admin, 'cause it isn't world-readable 21:14:13 well, what about the big fat world-readable file called "website.tar.gz" that's right next to the non-world-readable directory? 21:14:51 the person who "cheated" did it a long time ago 21:15:09 and thanks, simonRC 21:15:15 this is why we can't have nice things 21:15:29 bad security? 21:15:44 it 21:15:55 it's a puzzle. The point of the thing is to work to solve it. 21:16:07 it's not a "security puzzle" 21:16:15 well, yeah 21:16:18 RodgerTheGreat: he was just joking... 21:16:28 of course, there should be no reason that the basil puzzle's source needs to be secret 21:17:17 if one were to just store md5's of the password that one must enter, you *could* make basil's source public 21:17:28 um, wait, I am treating you like an idiot 21:17:37 sorry, you must do that already 21:17:46 * SimonRC fwaps SimonRC. 21:18:24 SimonRC: I believe the term is Swhack. :P 21:18:34 lolcanada 21:18:34 eh? 21:19:02 SimonRC: Canada was the nomic played in #ircnomic (now ##nomic). 21:19:05 (seriously, I didn't get the "lolcanada" message until after I said "eh?) 21:19:09 tusho_: ok 21:19:09 By me, ihope, AnMaster, and quite a few other people. 21:19:17 Swhacks were voluntary point deduction. 21:19:23 If you thought someone did something silly, you could swhack them. 21:19:31 If they accepted it, a point was transferred from them to you. 21:19:34 tusho_, what? 21:20:35 AnMaster: I was talking about canad 21:20:35 a 21:20:39 ah 21:21:21 -!- MikeRiley has quit ("Leaving"). 21:26:50 heh, i can't solve even the first puzzle :D 21:27:10 not that i really tried, since i don't have a clue what to do 21:27:12 oklopol: pages are made of html 21:27:15 that's your only clue 21:27:35 basil sucks 21:27:37 that's your other clue! 21:28:02 I respond poorly to lack of clues of progress. 21:28:17 SimonRC: Where are you up to? 21:28:24 basil 21:28:26 oklopol: It's the kind of "puzzle" that's actually a treasure hunt for information and not a puzzle. 21:28:28 actually, i did solve the first one 21:28:32 I stopped months ago 21:28:43 basil is the one with a huge tif, right? 21:28:48 yeah it was a different kind than i thought, that was extremely trivial 21:28:53 the first one that is 21:29:14 well duh 21:29:16 of course the first one is 21:29:19 It is like a game of hot-cold where, if you are on the spot, you get "hot", and if you are anywhere else in the planet, you get "cold". 21:29:20 oklopol: which bit are you up to 21:29:22 gulesfish or ... 21:30:12 yeah, i wouldn't call it a 'puzzle' 21:30:16 tusho_: i just opened the page like a minute ago 21:30:27 oklopol: have you got past the first page 21:30:30 onto the page that looks the asme 21:30:31 *same 21:30:45 gulesfish is a puzzle, basil didn't seem to be one 21:30:55 well yeah, right away, once i figured it wasn't actually a hacker task, but, err, a puzzle 21:31:02 lament: "didn't seem to be a puzzle"? 21:31:05 lament: the puzzle is figuring out what to actually do. 21:31:07 oklopol: ok. 21:31:13 oklopol: why not use the same tatctic again 21:31:14 *tactic 21:31:33 tusho_: have i said i can't solve the second one? 21:31:41 oklopol: define 'second one' 21:31:44 the second 403 page? 21:31:48 well, how did you solve the first one? 21:31:49 tusho_: it didn't seem to be a puzzle. blind guessing isn't a puzzle. It seemed like blind guessing. 21:31:51 you... 21:31:59 tusho_: err, i read the source 21:32:03 oklopol: so... 21:32:10 lament: that is reassuring to hear 21:32:11 these two are really the entry puzzles 21:32:21 gulesfish & basil are the real hard ones 21:32:23 tusho_: aaaand? 21:32:27 oklopol: ok. 21:32:31 1. you used tactic T on the previous page 21:32:40 2. this page looks 100% the same as the previous page 21:32:43 3. so... 21:32:44 so... err... i simply have to solve them because they're simple? :D 21:32:52 oklopol: so view the source on the second one!!!! 21:33:02 wtf, didn't i just say the second one is fucking trivial too 21:33:07 23:31… oklopol: tusho_: have i said i can't solve the second one? 21:33:08 I thought oklopol already did these puzzles 21:33:17 "have i said i can't solve the second one?" 21:33:19 _can't solve_ 21:33:21 if you can't solve it, how is it trivial 21:33:31 what 21:33:36 someone help me with english 21:33:40 oklopol:"have i said i can't solve the second one?" 21:33:41 that means 21:33:41 your english is fine 21:33:43 my language skills have disappeared 21:33:46 "I am unable to solve the second puzzle." 21:33:49 Now you are saying 21:33:52 oklopol: no, your english is fine 21:33:53 it is trivial, so he not "can't solve it", so he didn't say he "can't solve it" 21:33:54 "The second puzzle is really easy." 21:33:55 tusho_: read it again. 21:33:59 ah, right 21:34:03 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:34:08 tusho_: i'd've said "have i mentioned..." 21:34:08 lament: ahh 21:34:09 I see 21:34:16 not that that would've made any sense 21:34:18 oklopol: ok, so you're on to gulesfish? 21:34:48 no i'm in the second puzzle, read source, was sure about the answer, and went on with my life 21:35:03 oklopol: but ... the third one is the first actually hard one. 21:35:18 these are really just obstacles to start it off. 21:35:27 ...so i just have to solve the second one so i can fail at that? 21:35:42 yes. 21:35:46 you won't fail at it. 21:35:50 let's imagine a puzzle with a big red button saying "press this for level 2" 21:35:51 not if you actually try and solve it 21:35:51 :P 21:36:00 i wouldn't necessarily press that. 21:36:12 your loss 21:36:14 because, err, i don't especially like puzzles 21:36:14 oklopol: the reason the first two puzzles are there is so people who fail at the third still have somebody to laugh at. 21:36:37 right, well i can already laugh at those who don't know what GET is 21:36:38 the art with these things is not to make them hard, but to make them hard yet cause people to consider themselves blithering idiots if/when they find (out) the answer 21:37:18 i like puzzles where i know exactly what to do, but not how to do it 21:37:25 more like, write a program that does X 21:37:27 shrug 21:37:31 this is also called programming 21:37:32 what are you people talking about?! 21:37:35 it's one of my hobbies 21:37:46 he can't not not unsolve it what 21:37:54 oklopol: and even better, some kind of indicator that you are going the right direction 21:38:00 -!- alexbobp has left (?). 21:38:24 SimonRC: well when i know exactly what to do, i can just supply that heuristic myself 21:38:32 yes 21:38:46 what are you guys talking about?! >_< 21:38:58 psygnisfive: you 21:39:01 :o 21:39:02 <3 21:39:03 anyway, solved it though I haven't, Basil will greatly increase my future appreciation of H.P. Lovecraft and similar... 21:39:05 and your hot sexy mama 21:39:09 psygnisfive: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/PHP/Example.php 21:39:18 what about it 21:39:27 psygnisfive: it's what we're talking about. 21:39:36 its a Forbidden page, whats to talk about 21:39:45 we're #esoteric 21:39:45 nobody tell him. 21:39:47 psygnisfive: it's a puzzle 21:39:51 no it's not oklopol 21:39:53 we can spend _hours_ talking about a Forbidden page. 21:39:54 ... because I will truly be able to believe that a single enigma can drive one to complete insanity in a week or two 21:39:54 it's just a very pretty forbidden page 21:39:55 sorry 21:39:56 oh, its one of those stupid puzzles 21:40:01 but i like lying to ppl 21:40:01 i see 21:40:15 psygnisfive: what is there that you don't consider stupid? 21:40:23 SimonRC: :D 21:40:25 just but looking at the effect it had on me over a day or two 21:40:28 *by 21:40:31 tusho_: oklopol isnt stupid :o 21:40:40 SimonRC: did you actually parse the tif and stuff? 21:40:41 :D 21:40:51 lament: I looked at the size of the tiff 21:41:00 it strongly suggests that 21:41:03 psygnisfive: i tried to install a c++ compiler today 21:41:05 was a bit too hard 21:41:10 the picture is in bitmap form 21:41:42 not, as artifacts suggest, a jpeggy form 21:41:48 is that brainfuck? 21:41:51 why am i doing this >_< 21:42:03 .tiff is an uncompressed image format, by the way 21:42:28 lots of cameras and scanners dump to it natively 21:42:36 RodgerTheGreat: I read the wikipedos article and I thought it said it can be compressed sometimes 21:42:47 only losslessly 21:42:51 ok 21:43:03 psygnisfive: you really hate brainfuck don't you 21:43:10 damn you, you are trying to make me look at it again aren't you! 21:43:14 i find brainfuck to be boring 21:43:41 psygnisfive: so what, its just an entry puzzle 21:43:45 gulesfish and basil are the real puzzles 21:45:46 i dont have elf :( 21:46:17 ah, that may muck up the puzzle 21:46:19 atleast i dont think i do 21:46:21 whats elf? :O 21:46:42 psygnisfive: read LOTR. 21:46:51 :-P 21:46:52 your girlfriend is an elf! :o 21:47:01 elf is a binary program format 21:47:08 ooh i see. 21:47:15 hehehehe 21:47:28 well thats as far as im going in this game. 21:47:32 why psygnisfive? 21:47:43 im not running a binary from some weirdo like rodger! :o 21:47:48 i'd say something relevant here 21:47:52 but RodgerTheGreat would kill me for spoilers 21:48:11 indeed 21:49:02 but there's already enough information here to get past that if he was paying close attention 21:49:14 im not paying attention! :( 21:49:24 psygnisfive: pay some 21:49:25 RodgerTheGreat: who managed to solve it without your help? 21:49:31 i dont want to! 21:50:03 psygnisfive: why not 21:50:09 attention is no fun 21:51:31 tusho_: i solved the second one, are you happy? 21:51:38 oklopol: NO 21:51:39 :D 21:52:02 you AREN'T?? oh god what do i have to do to get you happy?!? 21:52:11 oklopol: this channel is pg-13! 21:52:15 right SimonRC? 21:52:18 remind me what the first four puzzles are again? 21:52:37 or however many it is up to gules 21:52:52 rodger, tusho_ i presume its possible to run ELFs on a mac? 21:53:04 nope 21:53:09 damn your mother! 21:53:31 when I did it i ran it with my brain 21:53:33 bit slow, but.. 21:53:47 * SimonRC fwaps tusho_ 21:53:52 ouch 21:54:57 psygnisfive: you're overthinking 21:55:02 :( 21:56:07 well ive lost interest now. 21:56:14 im going back to designing my language. 21:56:16 the general hint I give for all these puzzles is that none of them require specialized tools, any particular operating system or any ridiculously specialized skills to solve 21:56:22 what he said. 21:56:38 well i dont care anymore. :D 21:56:39 well, not specialised for *here* 21:56:43 -!- lilja has joined. 21:56:44 every single one can be easily broken by a novice in less than 5 minutes if they know what they're doing 21:56:54 most even less than that 21:57:04 *if* 21:57:23 this is what makes them "fair". I could've done hideous puzzles that are nigh-impossible, but that's really lame 21:57:23 SimonRC: artifacts could easily be because the image in the TIF was originally a JPEG. 21:57:33 lament: I suspected that 21:57:56 or subtly added by my own malicious processing. Muahaha! 21:58:07 one can go down 1000 5-minute dead-ends before finding the right path though 21:58:50 RodgerTheGreat: suppose i give you a 10000-page book and the solution is written on the margins of some page. This "puzzle" requires no tools ot solve and can be solved in a second! 21:59:10 but the simplicity of the hidden technique to answer them is what is the art of your puzzles is 21:59:31 lament: now you're just pissing and moaning. I made a game for you guys to enjoy. Play it and have fun or do something else and shut the hell up. 21:59:42 okay. 21:59:53 as I said a while back, the answer must be simple enough to make one feel like an idiot when the answer is found (out). 22:00:08 and they all are 22:00:12 *especially* basil 22:00:24 pikhq wanted to strangle me when he figured it out 22:00:32 whats basil? 22:00:40 the final and hardest puzzle 22:00:43 oh. 22:00:50 how many puzzles are there? 22:00:57 psygnisfive: 6 i think 22:01:02 something like that 22:01:14 hm. 22:01:31 well 3 is pointlessly hard from my perspective. 22:01:33 I guess I should figure out a way to back up Normish before tusho requires it. 22:02:12 psygnisfive: what's 3? 22:02:20 the gulesfish one 22:02:24 oh 22:02:27 it's ... not hard 22:02:29 unless we're counting from 0, in which case its 2 22:02:33 psygnisfive: what does gules mean 22:02:34 isn't basil right after gulesfish? 22:02:38 lament: no 22:02:41 i dont know what gules means! 22:02:50 it looks turkish to me 22:02:52 psygnisfive: what do you normally do when you don't know what a word means. 22:02:59 Gules sounds like... what's it called... 22:03:06 depends on context 22:03:08 tusho_: ignore it! 22:03:13 Blazon, that's it. 22:03:19 i thought it was some silly name rodger came up with 22:03:25 in this context, one might reasonably assume it is a meaningless proper noun 22:03:27 ihope: yep, it's a blazon tincture 22:03:32 like someone's name 22:03:39 Gule's Fish :D 22:03:42 As in "Tierced palewise sable, argent, and sable, charged with a quill and an axe in saltire, proper, and in the chief a capital letter A, gules." 22:03:52 blazons are wonderful 22:03:55 we need a blazon esolang 22:04:06 blazons are the first vector graphics format 22:04:11 see, if one applies logic, one can easily get led up the garden path 22:04:15 with human-readable representation, too! 22:04:23 "In heraldry, gules (pronounced with a hard 'g') is the tincture with the colour red, and belongs to the class of dark tinctures called "colours". In engraving, it is sometimes depicted as a region of vertical lines or else marked with gu. as an abbreviation." 22:04:32 blazons are symbolic, not vector 22:04:42 well, sure 22:04:46 wtf am i supposed to do with THAT 22:05:02 psygnisfive: nothing, really. it's not much of a hint. 22:05:06 psygnisfive: what color is it 22:05:19 One fish, two fish, gulesfish, azurefish? 22:05:23 psygnisfive: at least, i got stuck on the puzzle for a while while fully aware of the implications. 22:05:26 of gules. 22:05:30 red? 22:05:31 i don't think it's a hint at all :) 22:05:33 thats.. stupid 22:05:49 Argent is silver and sable is black, right? 22:06:06 ah, I found an analogy that lament might like... 22:06:23 SimonRC: careful, RodgerTheGreat might abuse you if you say it 22:06:37 i still dont get it. 22:06:58 these puzzles are like a maze: any fool can walk fast enough to get through it in 5 minutes 22:07:18 (*cough* knowing the route *cough*) 22:07:25 but they'd be completely missing the point of the maze 22:07:32 yeah 22:07:33 any fool and do it in 5 minutes, but it takes a special kind of genius to get completely stuck :D 22:07:34 :p 22:07:45 i kinda like gules, i failed at solving it without help and did feel like an idiot afterwards 22:08:14 it's one of my favorite puzzles because it has so many layers that fit together 22:08:21 RodgerTheGreat: you are at a disadvantage; you have no clue how hard the puzzles are if one doesn't knoe that answer 22:08:26 it feels the most like a scavenger hunt 22:08:28 RodgerTheGreat: gules? 22:08:38 what the hell does GULES mean?! 22:08:47 psygnisfive: it means red. it's the color red. 22:08:47 So where are these puzzles? 22:08:50 lament: yes 22:09:01 ihope: http://rodger.nonlogic.org/PHP/Example.php 22:09:03 psygnisfive: red fish 22:09:05 thats stupid why would you use gules to represent the color red 22:09:15 because it's a puzzle. 22:09:19 yes 22:09:19 because otherwise it would be trivial. 22:09:23 no, its stupid is what it is. 22:09:37 tusho_: i knew from the beginning what gulesfish meant and still got stuck on the puzzle. 22:09:38 So, "gulesfish" is not a hint at all. 22:09:42 ihope: Yes it is. 22:09:44 i don't think it's a hint at all. 22:09:51 psygnisfive: what are red fish 22:09:52 lament: I get a 403. 22:09:57 ihope: intentional. 22:09:59 uh.. fish that are red? 22:10:02 Oh. 22:10:04 swedish fish? 22:10:08 siamese fighting fish? 22:10:11 yes. 22:10:16 * tusho_ facepalm 22:10:17 a fish thats been painted red? 22:10:18 i dont know 22:10:28 you're a native english speaker 22:10:29 it's a particular kind of fish. It's a herring. 22:10:38 lament: Now you just spoiled ihope 22:10:44 good point 22:10:48 ihope: please don't read that line 22:10:54 thats idiotic 22:10:59 this is why I keep telling people to put hints in PMs. 22:11:02 seriously, guys 22:11:04 lament: I knew that. 22:11:11 psygnisfive: Perhaps you should just resign yourself to the fact that you consider everything idiotic 22:11:13 Yes, I read it. Sorry. 22:11:14 anything past the first level, PMs. 22:11:14 instead of pointing it out all the time 22:11:24 besides ihope already knew it. 22:11:35 that kind of fish doesnt even look like that 22:11:37 -!- atsampson has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:11:50 again, i just don't think it's much of a hint, by itself 22:12:05 it doesn't work as a hint, except in retrospect you can say "oh yeah, i see that this was intended as a hint." 22:12:12 lament: inded 22:12:12 lament: it becomes a little important later on 22:12:23 but at that time it's much easier to figure out 22:12:52 still gules is a nice puzzle 22:12:59 no complaints there 22:13:22 RodgerTheGreat: it's not really a hint as much as an explanation, later on, for why you should feel like an idiot :) 22:13:38 yes 22:13:39 ok so apparently psygnisfive has NEVER EVER heard red herring as a literary term 22:13:39 basil is more of a "fuck you" puzzle than the others mainly because I wanted to end with a stumper 22:13:44 but gules is pretty fair 22:13:49 and thought it was a type of fallacy instead. 22:13:50 lament: I can see that. 22:14:25 yeah, if you don't know what red herring means then it's a bit less fair. 22:14:32 so, you claim that a novice can do them in 5 minutes each 22:14:36 Well, I don't know how to do the second one. What's the answer? 22:14:36 let me break it down for psygnisfive 22:14:44 1. You don't need a special platform 22:14:45 do it in pm. 22:14:48 ihope: what do you mean you don't? 22:14:50 basil is mainly hard because you have to look at it in a totally different way than you do most of the other puzzles. I train players one way, and then they have to spin their brain around 22:14:53 ihope: you're in #esoteric 22:14:57 Okay. 22:15:16 RodgerTheGreat: with the number of hints you gave me, I didn't exactly get trained in any direction 22:15:48 RodgerTheGreat: i'd say it's hard mainly because you have no idea whatsoever of what way to look at it. 22:16:40 yeah 22:16:50 Note to self: Don't stop the first time you see something. 22:17:12 ihope: keen advice for all these things 22:19:58 the route to the end is but 5 minutes long, but there are 1000 doors to try 22:20:12 Bah, other-style line breaks. 22:20:19 Notepad is a fan of not displaying those properly. 22:20:37 -!- atsampson has joined. 22:20:55 oooooooooooo 22:21:44 oooo 22:21:50 o 22:22:11 well psygnisfive you're on your own. 22:22:30 rodger, your puzzle is stupid. :P 22:22:31 yes. everything is stupid to you psygnisfive 22:22:43 tusho, why are you replying to PM in #esoteric? 22:22:52 because there is no point for it to be in pm 22:23:04 except that noone knows the context of your reply 22:23:17 so what 22:25:58 yeah, this is pointless. 22:27:08 i can't do the third one even with the hints 22:27:17 and i refuse to try anymore 22:27:22 waffles -> 22:27:29 :) 22:27:39 Okay, I don't know how to do the gules fish. 22:27:46 its some stupid brainfuck program that you run the elf file through. that much was obvious from the beginning, only the thing doesnt do anything. 22:28:15 the official hint for this puzzle is and was "look at everything you downloaded" 22:28:27 your hint sucks. 22:28:34 but the puzzle's page also contains a really blatant hint 22:28:47 s/brilliant/stupid/ 22:29:07 brilliant? 22:29:08 you totally win at reading comprehension 22:29:13 he said 'blatant' 22:29:14 you fool 22:29:22 i do fail at reading :( 22:29:35 i do that too often. 22:29:47 especially when im frustrated :( 22:29:53 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 22:30:46 just tell us. if this puzzle is genuinely interesting, we'll see it as such, and if its not, you'll know it sucks and you can revise it. 22:31:02 actually, at least 3-4 people in this channel really like it 22:31:09 and you're the only one getting all angry and upset about it 22:31:11 and calling it stupid 22:31:15 it IS stupid! 22:31:28 oklopols giving up and ihope doesnt get it either 22:31:35 psygnisfive: 22:31:38 look inside the zip. 22:31:39 and you, you're just insane so ofcourse it makes sense to you :P 22:31:43 i did look inside the zip you git 22:31:51 no you didn't 22:31:53 look inside _the zip_ 22:32:01 that makes no sense. 22:32:16 Oh. 22:32:31 heh, I see ihope needed that hint too 22:33:03 "< tusho_> and you're the only one getting all angry and upset about it" <-- BS, I got far more angry and upset about it 22:33:06 "thats the stupidest thing ive ever heard." 22:33:11 you continually break that recodr 22:33:13 like, every 5 minutes 22:33:19 No, I still don't know. 22:33:29 Oh. 22:33:53 SimonRC: but you didn't call it stupid afterwards 22:34:09 I express my bitterness in different ways 22:34:16 yes, like 22:34:20 'oh that was clever' 22:34:23 no 22:34:24 'damn you rodger' 22:34:25 I never said that 22:34:30 I did say that 22:34:34 :) 22:35:19 roger 22:35:20 you may have noticed that I have been hinting that peoples' judgement of difficulty is being clouded by knowing the answer 22:35:21 that was idiotic. 22:35:31 Bye all 22:35:36 looks like psygnisfive finally got it. 22:35:38 repeatedly 22:35:41 i still havent gotten it and its STILL idiotc 22:35:56 I think I might filter any message coming from psygnisfive with the words stupid or idiotic 22:36:02 they're all, without exception, useless 22:36:09 anyway 22:36:10 this puzzle is useless 22:36:15 I have practically spelled it out to you on pm. 22:36:21 it depends on a trick question 22:36:23 trick hint 22:36:26 whatever you want to call it 22:36:42 SimonRC: I am aware of this inherent fact with puzzles. However, I've worked closely with many people as they've solved these, so I have a good understanding of the "hard parts" and usual stumbling blocks 22:36:44 Okay, I looked inside the zip and saw something. It wasn't the password. 22:36:59 its stupid, ihope 22:37:11 you open the zip file in a text editor and at the bottom it says much needed input: blahblahblah 22:37:17 ... 22:37:19 FUCK YOU psygnisfive 22:37:21 RodgerTheGreat: yeah, and you may have noticed that no novice every actually solved them each in 5 minutes 22:37:24 when you run it through the program it spits out password is MD5 of the red herring 22:37:27 which does NOTHING 22:37:38 psygnisfive: You're a fucking asshole who ruins other people's fun. 22:37:50 No, he's a fucking asshole who gave me a hint. 22:37:57 Rodger used shady techniques to make this puzzle 22:37:58 SimonRC: actually, one dude on #Linux beat everything (it ended in gules those days) in about 8 minutes flat 22:38:00 ihope: What, by spelling out the whole damn puzzle? 22:38:07 I was chuffed 22:38:14 "look inside the zip" is always, ALWAYS, understood to mean unzip and look at the contents 22:38:19 apparently he'd done a lot of web hacking puzzles in the past 22:38:23 psygnisfive: OMFG!! PUZZLES SOMETIMES DEPEND ON WORDPLAY! 22:38:30 this isnt word play, tusho 22:38:31 I AM SHOCKED AND AMAZED AT THIS NEW DEVELOPMENT! 22:38:35 RodgerTheGreat: interesting 22:38:39 its not double meaning 22:38:43 its not coy pun 22:38:48 its stupid misdirection 22:38:49 RodgerTheGreat: is there any point to my continued existance 22:38:50 that doesnt do anything 22:38:53 kind of like whirl huh 22:38:57 I think I might ignore psygnisfive 22:38:58 SimonRC: with no hints at all, actually 22:39:02 tusho_: he said that if you run that string through the program, you get an instruction to take the MD5 of the red herring. He didn't say what to do with it. 22:39:06 it was... freaky 22:39:18 RodgerTheGreat: hmmmmmmmmmmm 22:39:18 tusho noone cares 22:39:25 so maybe it takes a savant, but it can be done damn fast 22:39:37 So can someone give me the answer so I can move on to the next puzzle? 22:39:38 * tusho_ tries to recall the last time psygnisfive said anything useful instead of just disparaging other people 22:39:39 and some luck 22:39:46 maybe, I dunno 22:39:56 presumably, the order one thinks of possibilities is quite random 22:40:07 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 22:40:09 rodger, your puzzle sucks. 22:40:13 "7566cb649f60a8a2d838750b2268720a" does nothing 22:40:14 and the order can make the difference between taking 3 weeks trying and 8 minutes 22:40:21 nor does "646241e2ff7e13dc72c461809b2daa99" 22:40:27 psygnisfive: what if you use capital letters? 22:40:32 i did 22:40:33 those are 22:40:45 They sure look lowercase to me. 22:40:58 you mean capital letters in the MD5 string? 22:41:02 Yes. 22:41:08 can you stop spoiling the puzzle for ihope 22:41:17 Please, keep spoiling the puzzle for me. 22:41:19 thats stupid and not how MD5 outputs but ill bloody try 22:41:21 no, stop 22:41:32 ihope there is no point playing a puzzle if you just get everything spoiled for you. 22:41:46 lament: why do you want me to not hear the answer? 22:41:51 theres no point in playing a puzzle when its stupid either. 22:41:52 tusho_: I'm curious as to what's next. 22:41:56 psygnisfive: so STOP PLAYING IT 22:41:58 ihope: there is no answer, it's just a puzzle 22:42:00 at least you'd shut up 22:42:14 no, im going to continue playing it and pointing out how stupid it is. 22:42:19 Is that thing you put in the password box not the answer? 22:42:32 psygnisfive: We'll carefully ignore you. 22:42:43 YOU'LL carefully ignore me perhaps. 22:42:47 i'm sure RodgerTheGreat feels a stab of pain each time you say 'your puzzle is stupid 22:42:48 ' though 22:42:49 keep at it 22:42:53 I'm still listening eagerly. 22:43:07 * SimonRC wonders 22:43:23 oh tusho, you think its that simple :) 22:43:24 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:43:41 pikhq, solve this puzzle and tell us the answer: http://rodger.shadowarts.org/PHP/gules.php 22:43:46 this is quite the most spectacular way to make people hate one another and/or themselves that I have ever seen outside of fiction 22:43:59 this game is like a bloomin' ring of conflict 22:44:02 ihope: I solved it a year ago. 22:44:09 SimonRC: you should've seen some of me and vlad's arguments over in #isharia! 22:44:14 No answer. 22:44:17 ihope: what do you mean by answer, the password? 22:44:18 SimonRC: Actually, psygnisfive is always like this. As am I with him. 22:44:19 :p 22:44:22 Anyways... 22:44:22 psygnisfive: did the entire channel join in? 22:44:31 lament: yes. 22:44:33 no, it was in PM 22:44:50 well, neither MD5 words 22:44:54 hmm 22:44:56 neither in caps nor in lowercase 22:45:06 I have just been informed that I am now in the posession of a system with 2 Xeons, 2 gigs of RAM, and 4 100G SATA drives. 22:45:10 tusho why are you all up in a huff about me telling people the secret magic of this level? 22:45:13 it doesnt fucking do anything 22:45:16 I have an idea... 22:45:30 take discussion to another channel 22:45:35 In other words: I now have the space to make me a version-controlled ~. 22:45:42 psygnisfive: yay! 22:45:45 oops 22:45:48 pikhq: yay! 22:45:50 i don't see the point 22:45:55 #esoteric is dead apart from this anyway. 22:46:03 SimonRC: Don't physically have the 100G drives yet, though. 22:46:06 why kill #esoteric and just move everything to #anotherchannel? 22:46:06 tusho_: because it is causing a damn argument, that's why 22:46:14 SimonRC: It'll cause a damn argument in there too. 22:46:15 And my actual ~ is on a system that's not currently on. 22:46:27 simonrc: this isnt actually an argument 22:46:30 tusho_: no, a couple of days ago there were long befunge discussions 22:46:32 this is foreplay between tusho and i 22:46:38 eventually we'll get to the gaysex 22:46:39 psygnisfive: well get a room 22:46:41 SimonRC: And there will be tomorrow. 22:46:45 But there is no befunge to discuss. 22:46:46 So 22:46:48 We'll argue. 22:47:22 #gulesfish, everyone? 22:47:35 ihope: That'll break when you get past #gulesfish. 22:47:54 Doesn't matter. 22:48:07 Meh. 22:48:10 This channel is dead anyway 22:48:13 there'll be arguments in that one too 22:48:18 so moving it accomplishes nothing 22:48:21 (dead apart from this) 22:48:27 I'm thinking there won't be arguments if you're not there. 22:48:34 * ihope shrugs ruthlessly 22:48:38 I guess I'll join then 22:48:48 stillllll not getting it. 22:48:59 MD5ing this shit doesnt achieve anything. 22:49:08 bah, i forgot how to do gate 3 lock 1 22:49:18 i just remember that it's easy :D 22:49:25 lament: is that the one with the flashing squares? 22:49:27 yeah 22:49:40 wanna reminder? 22:49:43 I MD5ed everything conceivable. the words "THEREDHERRING" "THEREDHERRINGÿ" "theredherring" "theredherringÿ" and the elf file 22:49:43 oh, i think i know what i did last time 22:49:56 and i tried those MD5s both all caps and all lowercase 22:49:59 none of them worked. 22:50:07 psygnisfive: that's not everything conceivable. 22:50:19 psygnisfive: what's another way to say red herring? 22:50:21 Care to stick it in PM? I'd prefer not to spoil it. 22:50:28 Especially not for people who read the logs. 22:50:31 SimonRC: no, thanks 22:50:34 ok 22:50:36 would you guys mind taking this elsewhere? 22:50:36 no actually there isnt, because "gulesfish" does not mean "red herring" 22:50:39 To #gulesfish with ye. :-) 22:51:09 ihope: nobody's going to go to that channel 22:51:20 SimonRC: i think the last time i just tried permutations 22:54:45 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 22:55:42 mm, got to basil and don't feel like playing with it any more than i had last time :) 22:57:08 indeed 22:58:11 it's not really a maze, more like a blank wall :) 22:58:25 (because knowing that other people could solve the puzzle in a minute or two but you can't is really reassuring) 22:58:28 gules at least has an obvious false trail 22:58:40 basil has no trail at all 22:58:59 Sorry. 22:59:06 I assume Rodger meant literally 8 minutes for that other guy. 22:59:13 ihope: ? 22:59:25 SimonRC: ihope just kicked me from #gulesfish 22:59:31 for telling psygnisfive he fails at reading comprehension 22:59:34 which he has done. 22:59:35 countless times. 22:59:38 unfortunately tusho your logic fails 22:59:50 he kicked you because you're an annoying little shit 23:00:02 ihope: why did you kick me? 23:00:07 tusho_'s better than the rest of you, and not afraid to show it 23:00:18 -!- SimonRC has changed nick to RodgerTheGrape. 23:00:35 ihope: well? 23:00:41 take it elsewhere he, I mean I, said 23:00:43 simonRC- the guy that beat everything in 8 minutes didn't do basil, too 23:00:44 -!- RodgerTheGrape has changed nick to SimonRC. 23:00:47 it was shorter then 23:01:04 RodgerTheGreat: oops, silly me 23:01:22 * SimonRC feels slightly better 23:01:22 * ihope gets popcorn 23:01:38 for future record i'm an annoying little shit 23:01:43 apparently 23:02:11 we need a ruler with an iron fist 23:02:18 I wonder if I could cause chaos in #math this way. 23:02:20 iron is too weak 23:02:21 yeah, one iron fist and one candy fist 23:02:26 we need carbon-steel 23:02:33 SimonRC: i'm happy with lament's level of opping 23:02:36 iron fist for the bad and candy fist for the good 23:02:46 :-P 23:02:46 it means that people aren't kicked just because someone considers them an annoying little shit 23:02:59 he owns this channel? 23:03:12 effectively 23:03:14 someone else founded it 23:03:19 but he's been here since 2002 and is the only active op 23:03:39 ah, of course, Freenode's non-falunty ops policy 23:03:44 I'm no longer in #gulesfish. 23:03:58 he is the basket in which all our eggs are? 23:04:14 maybe RodgerTheGreat or someone else sensible should be made into a backup op 23:04:25 i don't think we need more ops SimonRC 23:04:33 #esoteric is, mostly, totally free speech 23:04:35 and it's better this way. 23:04:42 -!- cherez has joined. 23:04:47 maybe so 23:05:10 in case lament goes into witness protection or something 23:05:43 lament barely excersizes his op power 23:05:45 i doubt we'd notice 23:05:55 (apart from the lack of his vulgar puns. Which would be missed.) 23:06:04 (although it's more vulgarity, and puns, seperately.) 23:06:22 yea 23:06:46 god whats NEXT 23:06:48 M? 23:07:04 yes 23:07:05 M 23:07:16 don't we have other ops, sheesh 23:07:28 psygnisfive: not in here, please 23:07:31 well, I'm flattered that people think I'm sensible 23:07:53 psygnisfive: I would like to actually sleep tonight 23:09:46 lament: we have one other 23:09:47 don't we? 23:09:49 the founder 23:09:57 and he's dropped off the face of the earth for years, no? 23:10:11 ohh 23:10:16 wasn't calamari an op? 23:10:20 maybe 23:10:23 i always thought he was 23:10:23 not when i've been here 23:10:26 but he's not on the list 23:10:36 to me #esoteric is your channel :P 23:13:47 wanna give the puzzle url again 23:14:02 i know a guy who likes playing with these 23:14:11 http://rodger.shadowarts.org/PHP/Example.php 23:19:55 ah, fizzie is an op 23:20:05 wow really? 23:20:06 since when? 23:20:16 since time immemorial, i think 23:20:30 try /msg chanserv access #esoteric list 23:20:42 Aardappel is there, for obvious reasons 23:21:25 lament: fizzie only started talking recently 23:21:27 I mean 23:21:33 didn't talk in 2007 as far as I can tell 23:21:38 only recently in 2008, probably talked before that ofc 23:21:39 but... yeah 23:21:57 i think he was on the esolang list 23:22:25 the esolang list still exists, it's amazing 23:22:32 really?? 23:22:35 does anyone still post? 23:22:42 the only message in the past ~5 years was a test message crosslisted to some other list 23:23:00 but it's totally there 23:23:01 lament: 5 YEARS?! 23:23:05 Surely someone has to post a message every now and then 23:23:07 maybe 4. 23:23:08 even if it's just hah it's dead 23:23:09 nope :( 23:23:13 it's absolutely dead 23:23:17 lament: well then you know what i'll do 23:23:21 i'll go and send an email to it 23:23:21 right now 23:23:26 ... subscribe link? 23:23:42 * tusho_ subscribes to friends-of-brainfuck too 23:23:47 i'm not sure if it still exists 23:23:56 you said it did lament 23:24:39 well here's a puzzle 23:24:40 http://esoteric.sange.fi/ 23:24:48 you figure out the subscribe link :) 23:25:05 ouch 23:25:16 um 23:25:17 lament: 23:25:21 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:25:21 there's an email from jul 06 there 23:25:22 this eyar 23:25:27 http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/current 23:25:57 a lot of spam there 23:26:01 yes 23:26:04 but I must subscribe 23:26:04 damnit 23:26:20 MUST SUbSCRIBE!!!!!!!!!!! 23:26:23 it's some popular listserv 23:26:30 try listserv@ or majordomo@ or subscribe@ 23:26:32 dunno 23:26:49 https://sange.fi/oiva/esoteric -> not found 23:26:55 hmmhmm 23:26:57 23:26:58 oh, there you go 23:27:03 To unsubscribe send a mail to listar@esoteric.sange.fi with a body of: 23:27:03 X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a 23:27:04 unsubscribe lang[if you receive these messages via lang] 23:27:04 unsubscribe misc[if you receive these messages via misc] 23:27:13 ... you figure out how to subscribe :D 23:27:14 ok. 23:27:15 :D 23:27:21 are you subscribed lament 23:27:24 yes 23:27:46 ok, let's hope that worked 23:27:50 List context changed to 'lang' by following command. 23:27:51 >> subscribe lang 23:27:51 Subscription confirmation ticket sent to user being subscribed. 23:27:56 nice 23:28:07 this is what always amazed me about the internet 23:28:13 things that are dead seem so alive 23:28:15 Welcome to list 'lang' 23:28:28 at least post something on-topic 23:28:30 for my reference: lang@esoteric.sange.fi & misc@esoteric.sange.fi 23:28:40 I'll post to misc 23:29:02 maybe mention this channel, just in case somebody missed the announcement 5 years ago 23:30:03 SENT 23:30:18 Let's see if some life can't be kicked back into this thing. 23:30:24 I'm not even going to set up a filter+label 23:30:31 I am under no illusions on how much traffic to expect 23:30:32 :P 23:30:56 friends of brainfuck seems to be dead though 23:30:58 won't register me 23:31:04 it says it's sent off the confirmation but hasn't 23:31:11 ah 23:31:13 t'was in spam 23:31:35 ...suddenly billions of forgotten esolangers awaken from their ancient dreams... 23:31:46 ...and eat tusho's soul! 23:31:53 oh my. 23:32:21 You have successfully confirmed your subscription request for "penguinofthegods@googlemail.com" to the Friends-of-brainfuck mailing list. A separate confirmation message will be sent to your email address, along with your password, and other useful information and links. 23:32:33 mailing lists make me happy 23:32:37 they're so ... deliciously arcane 23:32:39 yet they still work 23:32:54 does usenet make you happy? 23:32:58 no. 23:33:02 how come? 23:33:04 usenet doesn't work, lament. 23:33:08 ooh, another mailing list to fill up my gmail account and ignore! 23:33:17 usenet works for me 23:33:20 SimonRC: You're assuming any messages get sent to it to ignore 23:33:25 and yeah, usenet works for binaries. 23:33:27 :P 23:33:28 I am on several populated groups 23:33:47 non-binaries groups 23:34:02 usenet definitely works better than the esolang mailing list :) 23:35:04 Jul 26 = last non-spam on the friends-of-brainfuck list 23:35:10 it's asking if there's anyone still there in all the spam. 23:35:36 how can people suddenly just be so unenthusiatic about esolangs 23:35:38 while the esolang wiki survives 23:35:42 to not post for 4 fucking years? 23:35:47 i mean, ok, i can understand it going dead 23:35:49 but for 4 years?! 23:35:58 lament, did you get the email I sent to misc@? 23:36:11 tusho_: yes 23:36:19 ok, the listserv still works then 23:38:42 where is it hosted? 23:40:32 * SimonRC tries sending "help" to the listar 23:40:50 "Unable to process request due to filesystem error" 23:40:53 bugger 23:41:04 SimonRC: here's what to do 23:41:11 make the help command work? 23:41:17 send {subscribe lang} to listar@esoteric.sange.fi 23:41:19 send {subscribe misc} to listar@esoteric.sange.fi 23:41:44 what other lists are there? 23:41:56 SimonRC: none 23:41:58 that's all the esoteric lists 23:42:05 esoteric/lang and esoteric/misc 23:42:10 on the esoteric.sange.fi listserv 23:42:12 anyway, https://mail.koeln.ccc.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/friends-of-brainfuck 23:44:05 lament: how much spam do you get from those lists 23:44:06 there are just four lists 23:44:14 SimonRC: three 23:44:15 sci, lang, misc, and chat 23:44:24 ah 23:44:25 are you sure 23:44:27 yes 23:44:36 all on the esoteric listserv? 23:44:37 k 23:44:39 i'll subscribe em all 23:44:44 say "lists" to listar@esoteric.sange.fi 23:44:50 lament: which are you subscribed to 23:45:17 * SimonRC tries multi-subscribe in one message 23:46:28 chat doesn't work: "filesystem error" 23:46:52 >> subscribe chat 23:46:52 Unable to generate subscription cookie! 23:46:52 >> subscribe chat 23:46:52 Unable to process request due to filesystem error. 23:46:54 correct. 23:47:15 kind of an eerie feeling this 23:47:16 isn't it 23:47:19 yeah 23:47:22 a half-broken listserv 23:47:24 I wonder where it is hosted 23:47:24 still chugging away 23:47:27 serving the occasional spam 23:47:36 nothing for 5 years 23:47:39 and even then just a test message 23:47:48 how did we find it out again? 23:48:04 I thought that stuff on the net got taken down as soon as no-one was using it 23:48:13 SimonRC: It hosts lots of stuff too 23:48:17 http://esoteric.sange.fi/ 23:48:24 it's the esoteric file archive 23:48:26 23:21:57 < lament> i think he was on the esolang list 23:48:27 23:22:25 < lament> the esolang list still exists, it's amazing 23:48:43 i knew of it before though 23:48:45 just never tried subscribing 23:48:49 we found it because i remember the url :) 23:48:57 and because esolangs.org links to it 23:49:01 ah, ok 23:49:02 just not the actual thing 23:49:05 so we looked in archives/ 23:49:09 and saw unsubscribe instructions 23:49:10 so... 23:49:19 * SimonRC internet archaeology 23:49:41 it's like discovering a forgotten city 23:49:52 i have no idea how you can not post to a mailing list for 5 years though 23:49:55 R'lyeh 23:50:10 everything i'm on always gets a 'is this still on' every now and then 23:50:20 tusho_: it never officially died, either 23:50:22 I subscribed to the thress that work 23:50:23 people just stopped posting 23:50:31 SimonRC: friends-of-brainfuck too? 23:50:31 #esoteric played a large part in killing it 23:50:38 tusho_: not yet 23:50:42 lament: ouch 23:50:49 (hmm, how did *I* find this place) 23:51:21 at least these days the esolangs wiki is high up on google 23:51:24 some listserv software says "BTW you are still subscribed y'know and here is your password" every month 23:51:25 and from it, people can find irc 23:51:37 anbd from there THE WORLD! 23:51:45 http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_Portal 23:51:50 that page actually mentions the mailing lists 23:51:57 who owns the server the list is on 23:52:01 The mailing list lang@esoteric.sange.fi is is a common place to announce new languages, programming contests etc., though it is rather low on traffic these days. 23:52:04 To subscribe to lang@esoteric.sange.fi, send a mail with subscribe lang as the message body to listar@esoteric.sange.fi. 23:52:11 SimonRC: some listserv == mailman. 23:52:24 i used to be subscribed to a mailing list from coollist.com 23:52:29 which, at the bottom, proudly sports: 23:52:34 © Copyright 2000 Coollist. 23:52:41 or, who owns esoteric.sange.fi? 23:52:56 panu kalisomething 23:52:56 (the list mustn't die, not after we just found it) 23:53:03 SimonRC: we can keep it alive. 23:53:07 or rather 23:53:08 revive it 23:53:20 if the list is referenced from the comunity portal page on the wiki 23:53:27 means it was always accessible to newcomers 23:53:33 I mean, he mustn't notice and say "oh that thing's still going I mean to get rid of that" 23:53:44 lament: doesn't mean they did it. 23:53:46 he's subscribed to the list of course 23:54:07 I am bothered by my desire to try and bring together groups of people that are split and only have me in common 23:54:14 SimonRC: me too 23:54:25 i also hate to see sites die 23:54:27 no posts since 2004 23:54:29 then it just disappears 23:54:34 it kind of feels like everyone on it is gone too. 23:54:41 e.g. my recent desire to reunite SourceryNet's #afd with the parent newsgroup alt.fan.dragons 23:54:41 esoteric.sange.fi used to be the hub 23:54:49 i also generally dislike meeting someone on the internet 23:54:52 and then never seeing them again 23:54:59 hmm 23:54:59 tusho_: one of my webcomics died a couple of days ago 23:55:02 coollist.com seems to be broken 23:55:07 subscribe.cgi -> empty 23:55:08 Everything You Know Is Right 23:55:51 enough thought like this could make one an insane dictator who desires no information should ever be lost 23:56:07 i prefer retaining information in a vigilante way 23:56:17 now, shall we figure out how to work coollist? 23:56:25 i'll try -making- a list 23:56:41 at one point the esolang list was lively enough that somebody proposed an esolang ([]) to go in the message title tags 23:56:55 lament: I remember seeing that 23:57:09 Internal Server Error 23:57:09 The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request. 23:57:12 Encouraging. 23:57:22 Yow. Apache/1.3.28. 23:57:25 that esolang is not even on the wiki :( 23:57:35 oh god, now we've made lament sad too 23:57:41 :-| 23:57:47 i'm perpetually sad 23:57:47 tusho_: where is this? 23:57:52 SimonRC: http://coollist.com/ 23:57:55 I wouldn't bother 23:57:59 it seems to be 100% borked 23:58:12 a lot of cool people used to come to this channel and don't come anymore 23:58:13 SimonRC: it died early 2007 it seems 23:58:19 so it went for 7 years without maintainence... 23:59:08 this channel is dying just as the list died 23:59:10 Your query has been successfully sent to the Coollist Support Team. We will get back to you as soon as possible. 23:59:12 yaaaaaaaaay 23:59:16 lament: wtf? It's active. 23:59:23 it's just dying very, very slowly :D 23:59:32 ok, it was in a lull a while back 23:59:34 but it's perked up again 23:59:38 thanks to new bloo 23:59:38 d 23:59:45 google thinks the FOBF subscribe messages are spam 23:59:51 SimonRC: yep 23:59:55 ircbrowse.com seems to be dead...