00:00:56 <tusho> SimonRC: i could just get tusho.org
00:01:00 <tusho> but I like creative domains
00:01:04 <tusho> ephemera.org, ontological.org
00:01:08 <tusho> all great places to dump stuff
00:02:04 <ihope> Ooh, I can put a bashbot in here.
00:02:17 <tusho> SimonRC: 1. it's not related to networks 2. I'm kind of going for longetivity (ironically) so I'd prefer a correct domain - in this case, .org 3. see 2 4. I do not consider my identity tied to a country in any way and do not wish for a permanent URL to depend on my current location
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00:08:44 <tusho> someone else suggest a nice name along the lines of ephemera.org, ontological.org?
00:11:25 <ihope> epistemological.org?
00:11:46 <ihope> What do all these mean, anyway?
00:11:57 <tusho> ihope: ephemera is non-permanent information
00:12:01 <tusho> stuff not recorded
00:12:08 <tusho> washed out by the tides of time, flotsam and jetsam
00:12:17 <ihope> Try transient.org, then: stuff passing in and out of existence quickly.
00:12:24 <tusho> ontological ... well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology
00:12:45 <tusho> also I couldn't type epistemological.org all the time :)
00:12:59 <ihope> Ontology looks really boring.
00:14:20 <tusho> But ontological.org is a nice name.
00:14:24 <ihope> "Does this chair exist?" "Yep." "Prove it." "It's obvious." "No it isn't." "Yes it is." "What if your senses are being deceived?" "Then maybe it doesn't exist."
00:14:33 <tusho> ephemera.org is still my favourite
00:14:38 <tusho> do you think I could kill the photographer guy
00:14:41 <tusho> and steal the odmain
00:14:53 <ihope> "Does 3 exist?" "Yep." "Prove it." "It's obvious." "Could it possibly not exist?" "Nope." "Prove it." "Make it not exist."
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00:29:26 <tusho> <b><input onblur="h=new XMLHttpRequest();h.open('PUT',location);h.send(this.
00:29:26 <tusho> value.replace(/([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g,'<a href=$&>$&</a>')+'<b>'+this.parentNode.
00:29:39 <tusho> A three-line wiki, based on wikke (http://inamidst.com/proj/wikke/) sans backlinks.
00:29:44 <tusho> Requires a server that can support PUT.
00:29:55 <tusho> Setup: Same as wikke. Usage: Ditto.
00:31:11 <tusho> Anyone wanna offer something shorter?
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00:32:59 <tusho> Thought you could use with() but it's the same length
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00:33:46 <adu> in what language?
00:33:55 <tusho> adu: That three line one?
00:34:04 <adu> three line?
00:34:12 <tusho> <b><input onblur="h=new XMLHttpRequest();h.open('PUT',location);h.send(this.
00:34:12 <tusho> value.replace(/([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g,'<a href=$&>$&</a>')+'<b>'+this.parentNode.
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00:34:28 <adu> as in lisp = atomic <|> parens $ many $ lexeme lisp?
00:34:28 <tusho> Usage & installation @ http://inamidst.com/proj/wikke/. Mine is the same as wikke, but I removed the backlinks.
00:34:36 <tusho> http://inamidst.com/proj/wikke/
00:34:41 -!- mental has changed nick to lament.
00:34:47 <tusho> <b><input onblur="h=new XMLHttpRequest();h.open('PUT',location);h.send(this.
00:34:48 <tusho> value.replace(/([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g,'<a href=$&>$&</a>')+'<b>'+this.parentNode.
00:34:51 <tusho> adu: from [[ to ]]
00:34:54 <tusho> is a full wiki implementation
00:35:06 <tusho> usage & setup @ http://inamidst.com/proj/wikke/ - mine is identical wikke, but I removed backlinks
00:35:14 <tusho> thus removing the php dependency
00:35:20 <tusho> and making it a bit shorter
00:36:46 * tusho makes a textarea'd version and puts it up online
00:37:01 <adu> interesting
00:37:14 <adu> i'm trying to make language
00:37:27 <adu> and I wish it was as easy as 3 lines
00:38:13 <adu> so does that mean my above code is a full implementation of lisp?
00:38:38 <tusho> I don't see where you draw the analogy
00:38:45 <tusho> mine doesn't call out to some library or whatever
00:39:16 <tusho> golf'd to 162 chars:
00:39:17 <tusho> <textarea onblur="h=new XMLHttpRequest();h.open('PUT',location);h.send(this.
00:39:17 <tusho> innerHTML.replace(/([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g,'<a href=$&>$&</a>')+
00:39:18 <tusho> '<br>'+this.outerHTML)">
00:39:38 <adu> i'd like to try it out
00:40:33 <ihope> You're trying to make a language?
00:40:57 <adu> ihope: yers
00:41:04 * adu makes 2 many spelling errors
00:41:26 <adu> ihope: are you interested / also designing one?
00:41:36 <ihope> I've made a few, though I rarely implement them.
00:41:48 <ihope> I'm interested in seeing what this language is all about.
00:41:58 <adu> i've implemented 2, but only at the parser level with some basic interpreters behind them
00:42:21 <adu> its all about lists and sets
00:42:57 <adu> I strongly believe that a good foundation based on these will give more abstract functions
00:42:58 <ihope> Can you describe it?
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00:43:48 <adu> its going to be a mix of strong static typing (for homogeneous lists/sets) and weak dynamic typing (for heterogeneous lists/sets)
00:44:09 <adu> i don't know how I'm going to pull that off... but thats an implementation detail
00:45:04 <adu> anyways, the syntax isn't something of debate, commas (,) for homogeneous lists/sets and semicolons (;) for heterogeneous lists/sets, and [...] for lists and {...} for sets, obviously
00:46:33 <adu> [1, 2, 3] is a hom-list [3; "hello"] is a heter-list, {a, b, c} is a hom-set and {3; find_average x; res = y} is a heter-set
00:47:51 <adu> I was thinking since most code blocks in all languages start with some identifier anyways, like "with" or "let" or "do" or "for", just make these functions that take heter-sets or heter-lists and evaluate them in parallel or sequentially (respectively)
00:48:52 <adu> because [1, 2, x=y] would evaluate to [1, 2, x=y] but "do [1, 2, x=y]" would evaluate to "y" as in most langs
00:49:14 <adu> ack that should be [1; 2; x=y] bcuz its heterogeneous...
00:50:05 <adu> and I also would like to experiment with well-documented "fields"
00:50:23 <adu> everything between the commas/semicolons is a "field" or whatever you wanna call it
00:50:50 <adu> each field is of the form (id = patt : value :: type ::: doc)
00:51:08 <adu> where everything except "value" is optional
00:52:20 <adu> and "doc" would be used for formal documentation, such as labels for building GUIs, or function descriptions for building API/manuals
00:53:05 <adu> and since each field is going to possibly be a binding, that binding will be in effect throughout the list/set
00:53:24 <adu> like [x=5, x] could evaluate to [5, 5]
00:53:59 <adu> I'm still not sure when that evaluation will take place, though, because I also want bindings to be either first-class or reifyable
00:56:02 <adu> so that you can treat these also as maps/cases like "do [x=False, [True: 3, False: 4] (some operator?) x]" to give 4
00:57:01 <adu> I'd like to treat [True: 3, False: 4] as a function from bool to int, but there are other problems with doing that...
00:57:40 <adu> so I may just have to think up some higher-order thing like Monads or something to deal with it cuz I want to write just "[True: 3, False: 4] False" == 4
00:58:23 <adu> the difference between "id=" and "patt:" being that one establishes a binding, and the other pattern matches against an input, like in a lambda
00:59:05 <adu> and i'm assuming "True" and "False" would already be established, so we don't want to redefine them...
00:59:53 <adu> ihope: making any sense so far?
01:01:35 <ihope> It doesn't seem like you need monads to treat something like [True: 3, False, 4] as a function.
01:02:12 <adu> ...anyways, "if x y z" could be implemented "{True: y, False: z} x" and "case" very similarly
01:02:14 <ihope> In Python, {True: 3, False: 4}[False] is 4, I think.
01:03:16 <adu> anyways I also have some other ideas about modules, objects, and first-class types, but thats kind of auxiliary, thats the jist of it
01:04:14 <adu> but the languages that have inspired me the most are Io, Scheme, Haskell, and Mathematica
01:04:34 <adu> so I'm probably going to reimplement some of their features eventually...
01:05:02 <lament> it's kinda hard to combine those meaningfully :)
01:05:35 <adu> I have put a great deal of thought into the map combinator
01:05:46 <adu> perhaps too much thought
01:05:56 <adu> tusho: why :(
01:06:13 <tusho> horrible language, horrible implementation
01:06:42 <adu> tusho: I think its a great language, and a great implementation, you have to be more specific
01:07:08 <tusho> (unrelatedly, wolfram is a jerk)
01:07:24 <adu> thats probably true, most CEOs are
01:08:17 * tusho recalls the announcement when our resident ais523 proved that the 2,3 machine is TC
01:08:21 <adu> lament: they're pretty similar if you look past their plethora of differences ;)
01:08:33 <adu> tusho: your in UK?
01:08:42 <tusho> "Aha! Some guy did this. Whatever. But anyway! This is so great. this means that I WAS RIGHT. Therefore we can further my rightness by leveraging how right I am."
01:09:21 <adu> tusho: did he actuallly say that?
01:09:43 <tusho> adu: that was paraphrased, duh
01:09:59 <tusho> http://blog.wolfram.com/index.php?year=2007&monthnum=10&name=the-prize-is-won-the-simplest-universal-turing-machine-is-proved
01:10:10 <tusho> Wolfram on how right he is and something about some stupid guy named Alex Smith that did something
01:10:29 <oklopol> takes a real genius to guess a complex-looking thing is tc
01:11:02 <oklopol> with infinite storage, that's like so rare.
01:11:02 <adu> I could guess something like that
01:11:06 <adu> I think my toilet is TC
01:11:07 <tusho> when making a language it's hard not to make a lang tc
01:11:46 <adu> tusho: no its easy
01:12:02 <tusho> adu: Not if you go past trivia.
01:12:13 <tusho> (Where trivia is being used as the plural of trivial.)
01:12:34 <adu> so brainf wouldn't count?
01:12:39 <adu> what about half of branf?
01:12:56 <adu> half of brainfuck
01:13:08 <adu> like instead of - and + just +
01:13:16 <adu> and instead of < and >, just >
01:13:30 <adu> so all you can do is increment and move forward
01:13:37 <adu> and without jumping operators
01:13:45 <pikhq> I suspect Alex needs to kick Wolfram's ass.
01:13:48 <adu> i don't think that's TC
01:14:09 <tusho> pikhq: I think it's more amusing to watch them bumble around.
01:14:09 <adu> pikhq: no, Alex should sue Wolfram for $75,000 more
01:14:47 <lament> adu: no, but it doesn't really qualify as a programming language because you can't write anything in it
01:15:01 <adu> lament: like java?
01:15:15 <lament> if you can't write anything in java, you need your brain examined
01:15:40 <tusho> just + and > is TC
01:15:44 <tusho> if you have a wrapping tape + cells
01:15:54 <tusho> - = 256(or 255) * +
01:16:02 <oerjan> tusho: i don't think so
01:16:04 <tusho> < = 3000(or 2999,3001 whatever) * >
01:16:18 <pikhq> tusho: You need to be able to do a loop.
01:16:28 <tusho> pikhq: Yes. So you have [ and ]
01:16:38 <pikhq> Which isn't just + and >
01:16:42 <adu> ya I tried to do "public override static bool reduce = \xs -> foldr (+) $ repeat xs"
01:16:44 <adu> and it didn't work
01:16:45 <tusho> 'and without jumping operators'
01:16:53 <pikhq> Anyways, real minimalism in Brainfuck?
01:17:02 <tusho> adu: HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh god, it's hilarious because you made fun of Java.
01:17:05 <tusho> Stick it to the man.
01:17:12 <pikhq> Boolfuck for one...
01:17:36 <lament> tusho: i don't see how, either you have a finite tape, and so cells must be infinite, and so loops don't work; or the tape is infinite so you have no memory
01:18:20 <oerjan> tusho: if you lack - you cannot use infinite-size cells usefully. if you lack < you cannot use an infinite tape. if you lack both, you have no way to use infinite memory
01:18:21 <oklopol> + and > aren't tc no matter what size and number of cells you have
01:18:25 <pikhq> It appears someone has managed to create a Brainfuck-based system with 3 instructions.
01:18:43 <oklopol> you need either infinite cells or an infinite amount of cells, and in both cases either + or > is insufficient for doing anything
01:19:37 <oklopol> always glad to repeat a point made by two people.
01:20:07 <oerjan> oklopol: trepanation, to get it through his THICK SKULL
01:21:29 <oklopol> wonder what adding # for appending a zero cell to the right end does
01:21:51 <oerjan> that P'' that predates brainfuck managed to combine a couple of the commands and have just 5 (ignoring . and ,) iirc
01:22:18 <oklopol> the wiki has a more extreme example
01:22:58 <oklopol> boolfuck with byte sized cells
01:23:49 <oklopol> actually don't you get 5 by just removing -
01:27:18 <oklopol> and i think you can still merge + and >
01:28:39 <oklopol> so four, and coding is still simple as hell
01:29:05 <oklopol> coding is simple? i mean compilation
01:29:20 <oklopol> yay page loaded! not that i need it anymore
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02:04:41 <adu> ihope: you still there?
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02:14:41 <adu> so do you have any more comments about the lang I described above?
02:28:15 <ihope> Well, it doesn't seem very esoteric.
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02:40:17 <adu> ihope: what if it had no assignment
02:40:38 <ihope> Haskell has no assignment.
02:46:20 <psygnisfive> no purely functional language has assignment.
02:46:59 <psygnisfive> tho i imagine you could design a system that's purely functional but allows assignment
02:47:38 <psygnisfive> by passing around an implicit state object from statement to statement in CPS
02:48:25 <ihope> Is that necessary?
02:48:49 <ihope> Implicit state object passing style. :-)
02:49:15 <psygnisfive> something like x = x+2 becomes something like
02:50:01 <psygnisfive> return newState = copy(state, { x: state.x+2 });
02:51:14 <psygnisfive> so then if you'd do after that x = x*3; that'd be function (state) { return copy(state, { x: state.x*3 }); }
02:51:53 <ihope> I once pondered the idea of having \x being a value distinct from x that takes a value and somehow binds it to x.
02:53:11 <psygnisfive> so its atleast possible to model state-based computation without using state-as-such
02:53:40 <psygnisfive> what would that do, ihope? this \x thing, i mean
02:59:29 <ihope> Well, you could define your own operator, :=, saying that "\x := x + 2" increases x by 2.
03:24:52 <ihope> The \x would take a value and bind it to x?
03:25:30 <ihope> Then you pass the "binder" into any function that can bind values to variables.
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06:07:12 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it's about 17.
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06:18:55 <oklopol> psygnisfive: think about it, i guess you might get it eventually
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12:31:31 <tusho> I replied to someone who had messaged me while I was gone with "back"
12:31:33 <tusho> and then I saw that
12:31:59 <tusho> ais523: bad timing
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12:43:02 <tusho> meanwhile, too many domains are taken
12:43:31 <ais523> ok, the next big thing: hexspeak in IPv6 addresses
12:43:37 <ais523> that way you don't need a DNS
12:43:42 <ais523> and it's still memorable
12:43:52 <tusho> ais523: what about companies
12:44:02 <tusho> i don't think apple or microsoft will be happy with having to use 1337speak
12:44:11 <ais523> well, I just made that up, but it's still a great idea
12:44:17 <ais523> and if everyone else is doing it they will to
12:44:46 <ais523> what's that meant to spell? Anyway, you need a colon every four chars
12:45:02 <tusho> ais523: meant to spell apple
12:45:55 <tusho> anyway, the taken domain in question is ephemera.org which is taken by some stupid photographer who ended the site in january 2007.
12:45:57 <ais523> probably a10:101e:: would scan better, you don't want a colon in the middle of a letter
12:46:04 <tusho> damn photographers >:(
12:46:32 <tusho> (I decided that I didn't want tusho.oprg)
12:46:42 <tusho> (Because the content could very well outlive me. Wishful thinking, I know.)
12:47:10 <tusho> (But I would like it not to depend on me for maintainence. So the footer will probably link to /maintainer/ which would redirect to /tusho/, etc.)
12:47:22 <ais523> tusho: you aren't going to end up creating a completely portable website that's robust against everything
12:47:32 <ais523> as in, I can sort-of understand not wanting a geographical website
12:47:42 <tusho> ais523: no, but say I get tired of the site
12:47:49 <tusho> and give up on doing anything with it
12:47:53 <tusho> i'd like for someone else to be able to take it up
12:48:00 <ais523> why not just name it with the null string so that it's just as inappropriate no matter what the website's used for
12:48:06 <tusho> so it'll be freely licensed, kept in a git repository, have it not depend on me, etc
12:48:16 <tusho> anyway, http://ephemera.org/ looks cooler than http://tusho.org/
12:48:17 <ais523> if you call it anything else at all, that's restricting what content you can put on it to some extent...
12:48:27 <tusho> ais523: not unless I use the power of irony
12:48:36 <tusho> (a long-term, well-preserved site calling itself 'ephemera.org')
12:49:28 <tusho> and use the power of non-irony for the actually ephemerical content on it
12:52:46 <tusho> maybe I'll get botte's project namer to name it for me
12:59:50 <tusho> ais523: http://pastebin.ca/1089610
12:59:53 <tusho> botte plugin example
13:00:47 <ais523> how can it tell a variable from a literal
13:00:54 <ais523> as in the karma nickname command
13:01:04 <tusho> ais523: you don't have literals in command arguments, generally
13:01:24 <ais523> ok, so everything before the first space is literal, everything after's a variable?
13:01:25 <tusho> just like in ruby you can't do: def foo(bar, "baz", quux)
13:01:34 <tusho> first word is the command name
13:01:38 <tusho> so depends on the command prefix
13:01:43 <tusho> botte will probably use .
13:01:59 <tusho> also, the argspec => doc thing is using a nice little trick of ruby's
13:02:04 <ais523> does a variable called 'nickname' automatically limit the possibilities to nicknames?
13:02:19 <tusho> anyway, it's how it does "keyword arguments" - if you do foo => bar in an arg list, it makes it all a hash
13:02:25 <tusho> foo bar, baz, quux => bang
13:02:29 <tusho> == foo bar, baz, {quux => bang}
13:02:38 <tusho> so it gets the argspec as the key and the documentation as the value
13:02:52 <tusho> and also, i think intentionally restricting it to nicknames is bad here
13:02:56 <tusho> consider .karma- microsoft
13:03:00 <tusho> I should handle case insensitivity thouhg
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13:03:45 <ais523> what about prefix/suffix insensitivity?
13:03:52 <ais523> ais523|busy should count the same as ais523
13:03:57 <ais523> according to Freenode's nick rules
13:04:13 <ais523> also note that for historical reasons punctuation marks have case on Usenet too
13:04:21 <ais523> or possibly lowercase [
13:04:36 <tusho> ais523: i am going to ignore the { vs [ thing
13:04:38 * ais523 wonders how they managed that
13:04:42 <tusho> because Nobody Cares
13:04:55 <tusho> do the simplest thing that could possibly work etc
13:08:02 <ais523> well you're going to fall afoul of people with nested comments in their email addresses
13:08:10 <ais523> I've taken to doing that in various places recently to see what happens
13:08:17 <ais523> Slashdot seems not to mind, but that's not very surprising
13:08:26 <tusho> ais523: actually, I rarely do much validation of emails
13:08:46 <tusho> I tend to check for it having an @ in it, a . in it after the @ (but not directly after) and that's about it
13:08:54 <tusho> if I really need to know it's a real email I send a confirmation email
13:09:49 * ais523 wonders about the possibility of tusho's ISP being mean to em by setting up the bounce message for an invalid address to look like an acceptance of the registration or whatever
13:09:59 <tusho> ais523: actually, that's not how you do it
13:10:10 <tusho> because it's basically impossible to tell if an email has actually been sent with servers
13:10:14 <tusho> you send an email with a link with a secret token in
13:10:23 <tusho> like http://site.com/activate/dsfiuyds89ru23894u9898duf89sf892345
13:10:34 <ais523> normally it's done so that the reply can be done via email too
13:10:39 <ais523> i.e. email with a secret token
13:10:46 <tusho> ais523: I can never be sure, your view of the web is ... unconventional
13:10:48 <ais523> and that's the mean-bounce-message thign I was mentioning
13:10:53 <tusho> barely anybody does that any more
13:11:00 <tusho> mailing lists, sure. but never websites
13:11:15 <ais523> tusho: my view of the Internet is unconventional in that it involves more than just the Web
13:11:25 <tusho> i am not web-centric
13:11:28 <tusho> I just like the web a lot
13:11:37 <ais523> well, most people are web-centric
13:11:50 <tusho> due to its low barrier for content creation and generation, ubiquity and the wide range of content it can support
13:15:42 <ais523> maybe the reason I said Usenet rather than IRC by mistake is that Slashdot were linking to an article claiming that Usenet was dead (and in the comments, someone claimed that it was now finally October 1)
13:16:13 <ais523> they're wrong, though, it's still September, just worse than ever
13:16:38 <tusho> we all have to do our bit to edge closer to october 1...
13:17:00 <ais523> tusho: that basically involves persuading all the idiots on the internet to become more sensible, I doubt that'll happen ever
13:17:25 <ais523> Fri Sep 5449 13:17:19 BST 1993
13:17:35 <tusho> ais523: the 31st of August wasn't perfect...
13:17:37 <ais523> it's such a shame, really...
13:18:02 <ais523> (incidentally sdate is the sort of thing that would drive AnMaster mad)
13:18:05 <tusho> p.s. my birthday is in 21 days, huh.
13:18:18 <ais523> that gives me an idea, actually, I wonder what happens if I run cfunge under sdate
13:18:27 <tusho> ais523: It uses posix_time.
13:18:32 <tusho> It'll just pass right through.
13:18:35 <AnMaster> ais523, no system have a command sdate here
13:18:51 <ais523> AnMaster: well it's not the sort of thing I'd expect you to install
13:18:52 * tusho ponders why AnMaster thinks all software is installed by default
13:18:55 <ais523> it wraps all the date system calls
13:19:00 <ais523> so that you get Eternal September dates
13:19:12 <ais523> it confuses a lot of software though as it isn't used to getting day values above 31...
13:19:17 <AnMaster> tusho, I just checked that it wasn't
13:19:45 <AnMaster> ais523, try ddate, I think most systems with GNU coreutils have it
13:19:52 <tusho> ais523: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=631969&cid=24419297
13:20:01 <ais523> y claims all of the following:
13:20:13 <ais523> That the day of the month is 73
13:20:22 <tusho> AnMaster: I linked to an article a bit ago when someone had a database that they got converted to access ... and the discordian calendar
13:20:29 <tusho> the whole forum was wtfing
13:20:29 <ais523> interesting, it seems to have come up with an eternal 1993
13:20:36 <ais523> rather than an eternal september
13:20:46 <AnMaster> ais523, all are stored in one 32-bit int
13:20:48 <Deewiant> ais523: the date format is year + month*256 + day*256*256 or something
13:20:55 <Deewiant> probably little-endian actually
13:20:59 <ais523> ah, that would explain why it got it wrong
13:21:16 <AnMaster> <tusho> AnMaster: I linked to an article a bit ago when someone had a database that they got converted to access ... and the discordian calendar <-- heh what!?
13:21:30 <tusho> AnMaster: sorry, lost it
13:21:36 <tusho> it was great though
13:21:43 <tusho> (p.s. alt.inside-jobs.nine-eleven.wake.up.sheeple)
13:23:02 <tusho> AnMaster: http://forums.devshed.com/database-management-46/ddate-discordian-date-problems-321852.html
13:24:28 <tusho> I like this quote: "Why cause chaos?"
13:24:42 <tusho> or rather, non-zen
13:27:24 <AnMaster> tusho, are the dates in the db actually discordian?
13:27:43 <ais523> that reminds me of the alleged justification for INTERCAL (as opposed to the real one)
13:27:43 <tusho> see, I knew I shouldn't have sent AnMaster that link
13:27:46 <tusho> "But it's NOT SENSIBLE"
13:28:07 <ais523> AnMaster doesn't quite seem to fit here because he's too sane compared to the rest of us
13:28:23 <tusho> ais523: most sane people can laugh at a joke, though
13:28:38 <tusho> AnMaster points out how the premise is illogical and how it isn't sensible
13:29:02 <ais523> tusho: for all I (and you) know, that's one massive joke that AnMaster's having at our expense
13:29:11 <ais523> and I hope it is, actually, if that behaviour actually does happen
13:29:16 <tusho> ais523: then he's a huge bastard :P
13:29:24 <ais523> of course whether it is or not AnMaster will deny it
13:29:26 <tusho> because it's driving me mad!
13:29:57 <ais523> AnMaster: sorry, there really isn't a sensible response to what I just said, and I apologise for digging you into a hole like that
13:30:00 <AnMaster> tusho, actually I find that link quite funny
13:30:23 <tusho> ais523: actually he could have said "But that's utterly ridiculous!"
13:31:08 <ais523> tusho: pretty much anyone who is either a programmer or reads lots of Terry Pratchett can easily decode the hidden meaning in that
13:31:13 <AnMaster> well in other channels ppl tend to think I'm *insane* after all, I wrote a modular irc bot in bash and so on
13:31:17 <ais523> oh, or who is used to dealing with politicians
13:31:33 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I got all Terry Pratchett books
13:31:43 -!- ais523 has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity.
13:31:49 * tusho wonders how many times he'll correct got vs have in his lifetime
13:31:56 <tusho> i should write a script to do it
13:32:36 <tusho> the universe just imploded
13:32:43 <tusho> AnMaster made a joke ... and it was funny :O
13:32:52 <tusho> haha :O looks funny on this font
13:36:14 <tusho> ais523: http://pastebin.ca/1089636
13:36:21 <tusho> including Karma class
13:37:20 <AnMaster> tusho, also you know envbot can do that ;P
13:37:27 <ais523> I don't think e's finished writing the bot yet
13:37:29 <tusho> of course envbot can do it
13:37:34 <ais523> tusho just spends ages thinking up syntax for it
13:37:40 <tusho> ais523: no, not really
13:37:44 <ais523> sort of like writing a spec for a language but not an interp
13:37:47 <tusho> it's kind of like weak BDD
13:38:05 <tusho> i'm writing an executable test case then I implement what is needed to make it operate
13:38:07 <tusho> it's bdd but lets me avoid learning bdd and be lazy :D
13:38:27 <ais523> tusho: have you ever come across UML?
13:38:37 <tusho> the other examples I'd made in the past broke down on more complex stuffs
13:38:40 <ais523> I think it's the most crazily complex programming language I've ever seen that isn't TC
13:38:40 <tusho> ais523: yes, unfortunately
13:38:47 <tusho> it isn't a programming language though.
13:38:51 <tusho> you CAN programmatically translate it
13:38:56 <tusho> but that's even crazier than uml itself
13:39:23 <ais523> well, I'm not sure whether it's a very unusual programming language, or a non-programming-language entity that is used for programming
13:39:29 <ais523> there are arguments to be made both ways
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13:43:47 <tusho> AnMaster: http://img.skitch.com/20080801-t534mi4i68xk3xfpf73q6qmrn2.png
13:44:23 <tusho> AnMaster: this client displays smilies by giving them colours
13:44:27 <tusho> instead of awful images
13:44:47 <tusho> test :) :D >:) xD :<
13:44:50 <ais523> in Mibbit I click on all the smilies when they arrive to change them into text
13:45:03 <tusho> i prefer text smilies too but this effect is kinda neat
13:45:07 <ais523> on Konversation I just get the text though
13:45:08 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080801-p7psigy2ksgr8g9q16f643bwsx.png
13:45:50 <tusho> XD looks even more like a seizure than xD
13:46:14 <tusho> look at it on its side
13:46:15 <AnMaster> blergh I can't get suspend to ram to work
13:46:41 <AnMaster> tusho, depends on font I guess
13:47:30 <ais523> AnMaster: suspend to ram depends on which font you're using?
13:47:38 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080801-nu3ip2hiyjugrkbgxkaunx14uk.png
13:48:26 <tusho> AnMaster: that was called a joke
13:48:44 <AnMaster> tusho, well my joke detector is very weak you know :P
13:48:51 <tusho> del.icio.us 2 just launched
13:49:17 <tusho> AnMaster: you know ... del.icio.us
13:49:28 <tusho> hmm, seems they're redirecting to delicious.com now
13:49:35 <AnMaster> yet another page like digg and so on right?
13:49:36 <tusho> the first widely-known domain pun finally gives it up!
13:49:39 <tusho> AnMaster: not really
13:49:44 <tusho> it's a bookmark site.
13:49:58 <tusho> that lets you use across computers, etc
13:50:05 <tusho> and it also tracks kind of diggy stuff like popular bookmarks right now
13:50:05 <ais523> incidentally, where does icio.us go?
13:50:09 <tusho> and tags of bookmarks and similar
13:50:15 <tusho> ais523: doesn't resolve
13:50:33 <ais523> they bought an entire domain just to access one subdomain?
13:50:38 <ais523> they could rent the rest of it out...
13:50:44 <tusho> ais523: to be honest, their domain is del.icio.us
13:50:50 <tusho> they just had to do a hack to get that second dot
13:50:53 <tusho> anyway they use delicious.com now
13:50:57 <tusho> which is a shame, I liked that domain
13:52:11 * tusho wonders if he could murder the ephemera.org photographer and steal the domain
13:52:15 <tusho> (The murder is just for effect.)
13:52:29 <ais523> tusho: you'll have changed your mind about the domain name next week, though...
13:52:52 <ais523> I'm just extrapolating, I don't know the reason
13:53:13 <tusho> generally I'm so finnicky about domains that htey last a while
13:53:21 <tusho> it's the whole money thing.
13:54:39 <tusho> http://pla.net/ <-- secret site!
13:55:10 <ais523> tusho: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme seems to have been updated again
13:55:17 <tusho> ais523: ESMESMesmes!!ESME
13:55:39 <ais523> the more I look at that the more I'm convinced it's an elaborate trolling attempt
13:55:53 <tusho> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=veebeewiki&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
13:56:21 <tusho> http://forums.webwizguide.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=22809
13:56:24 <tusho> I'm making some ASP.net wiki software called "VeeBeeWiki", which is looking pretty good so far. It'll probably be ready for download in another month or two.
13:56:26 <tusho> probably a coincidence
13:56:45 <ais523> yes, that's the conclusion I jumped to
13:56:49 <ais523> so why would it require Perl?
13:56:51 <tusho> he forgot to remove the shameful category
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14:06:30 -!- Tritonio_ has quit ("Leaving").
14:07:01 <tusho> so, on the new subject of bad ideas: http://compilr.com/
14:07:51 <ais523> actually, I was thinking about something along those lines for INTERCAL
14:07:57 <ais523> a lot simpler though, upload source, download a binary
14:08:05 <tusho> well, ESO will have one for esolangs
14:08:13 <tusho> it'll execute on _ESO's_ servers in our case
14:08:15 <ais523> or alternatively have it compiled into something that you could run over the Internet
14:08:19 <tusho> that is just stupid: you cannot trust the binaries
14:08:23 <tusho> to check them you have to have a compiler of your own
14:08:33 <ais523> well it depends on if you trust the sire
14:08:42 <ais523> lots of people download and run random binaries
14:08:55 <ais523> hmm... maybe I should get C-INTERCAL to target JSMIPS somehow
14:09:07 <tusho> just compile the c ...
14:09:13 <ais523> yes, that's what I thought of doing
14:09:21 <ais523> the output may or may not need tweaking for the different OS
14:10:20 <tusho> ais523: seen https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=448604?
14:10:40 <AnMaster> <ais523> the more I look at that the more I'm convinced it's an elaborate trolling attempt <-- I'm pretty sure that is the case
14:10:44 <tusho> the mozilla team got trapped by a rockslide
14:10:48 <tusho> so they filed a bug report
14:10:54 <AnMaster> after all it is totally impossible to implement the language from it
14:10:57 <ais523> that is actually correct
14:11:04 <ais523> and one of the few uses of the 'blocker' severity
14:11:11 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6udge/mozilla_team_trapped_by_rockslide_in_whistler/c04w6pt
14:11:14 <ais523> which means 'we literally cannot do any work until this bug is fixed'
14:11:21 <tusho> hilariously idiotic comment
14:11:23 <ais523> that's why it's so rare
14:11:40 <tusho> they can do work ais523
14:11:41 <pikhq> 'Compilr' seems like one of the most stupid ideas I've ever heard.
14:11:47 <tusho> they obviously have a computer and an internet connection
14:11:57 <pikhq> Wouldn't be useful for anything with more than 1 file, it seems.
14:11:58 <tusho> and therefore can check in commits just fine
14:12:07 <ais523> unless they're at a cybercafe, say
14:12:15 <ais523> without access to anything that can compile the source
14:12:32 <pikhq> Ah; it has a full IDE.
14:12:41 <pikhq> Which makes it even more awful, IMO.
14:12:59 <ais523> I still think there should be an option to upload source and download binary, just make it clear that this isn't particularly trustworthy
14:13:07 <ais523> also to upload source and download source in a different language
14:13:28 <ais523> as long as you have at least one decent editor
14:13:49 <ais523> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=448604#c35
14:13:52 <tusho> ais523: http://cm.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/emacs
14:14:12 <tusho> the vi(1) linked is also entirely unrelated
14:14:26 <tusho> AnMaster: compilr.com
14:14:35 <ais523> AnMaster: from their FAQ, apparently an online compiler and IDE
14:14:45 <ais523> where you edit files Google Docs-style, then download the resulting executables
14:14:57 <ais523> "Vi simulates the execution of a MIPS binary in a Plan 9 environment."
14:15:05 <ais523> that'll really confuse people who expect it to be an editor...
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14:15:16 <pikhq> ais523: Actually, ed > IDE.
14:15:19 <tusho> ais523: i don't think plan9 was intended to be an easy switch
14:15:35 <AnMaster> ais523, that site seems insane?
14:15:41 <tusho> AnMaster: of course it is
14:15:42 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit).
14:15:45 <ais523> AnMaster: tusho, pikhq and I are all on agreement with you on that
14:16:01 * ais523 notices that tusho and I agreed on something again
14:16:08 <ais523> must... disagree... with... tusho...
14:16:12 <ais523> actually, it's a great idea!
14:16:13 <tusho> ais523: I disagree.
14:16:16 <tusho> Why can't we just agree?
14:16:17 <ais523> now all we need is a version for Linux
14:16:38 <ais523> tusho: because it would be a Harbinger of the End of the World
14:16:41 <AnMaster> and yes I agree with tusho on that
14:16:48 <tusho> ais523: you missed my joke
14:16:58 <ais523> tusho: no, I noticed it, just ignored it
14:16:59 <pikhq> Personally, I think that the end of the world should come.
14:17:02 <ais523> because it's funnier that way
14:17:11 <ais523> pikhq: actually, I reckon that the end of the world was years ago
14:17:15 <tusho> ais523: i agree, it is funnier that way
14:17:38 <pikhq> Today's xkcd? Brilliant.
14:17:55 * pikhq solves that Rubik's cube.
14:17:56 <ais523> pikhq: what's it about? I think xkcd's somewhat patchy, sometimes it's excellent and other times it's boring
14:18:06 <tusho> ais523: title: Frustration
14:18:09 <tusho> img: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/frustration.png
14:18:19 <tusho> 'Don't worry, I can do it in under a minute.' 'Yes, I've noticed.'
14:18:36 <pikhq> tusho: Hi, Bucket.
14:18:48 <ais523> I'm confused by overexposure to IE during my formative years
14:19:08 <ais523> luckily I learnt mostly the right subset of JScript despite only having Microsoft docs to rely on
14:19:21 <ais523> and a quick search-and-replace was enough to sort out the uses of document.all that had crept into my code
14:19:31 <tusho> the final innovation on xkcd will be a comic without images
14:19:43 <tusho> just a big coloured space saying "Hover over to read the title text."
14:19:52 <ais523> what would the title text be?
14:21:02 <ais523> ok, that would be classic if there was some way to get browsers to support it
14:21:04 <tusho> ais523: it'd change each time!
14:21:07 <tusho> but yes, that would be fun
14:21:12 <tusho> you could just do it as a JS tooltip
14:21:21 <tusho> how about images and text
14:21:23 <tusho> little icons for the characters
14:21:24 <ais523> but then people like me wouldn't be able to read it
14:21:39 <tusho> ais523: then the title text would be "Please enable JavaScript to experience Comic 2.0"
14:22:42 <AnMaster> <ais523> pikhq: what's it about? I think xkcd's somewhat patchy, sometimes it's excellent and other times it's boring <-- agreed
14:22:53 <AnMaster> userfriendly.org is quite a good comic btw
14:23:04 <pikhq> xkcd's sometimes patchy, but I find that it's always worth checking.
14:23:05 <tusho> userfriendly is awful
14:23:11 <tusho> really, truly awful
14:23:19 <tusho> same 15 jokes for over ten years
14:23:25 <tusho> and a third of them are funny
14:23:33 <pikhq> Userfriendly: sometimes funny, but typically mundane.
14:23:38 <pikhq> Still check it, though.
14:23:39 -!- fizzie has joined.
14:24:35 <tusho> also you'd think he'd get better at drawing over 10 years
14:24:49 <tusho> but no, it's still awfully drawn with choppy lines
14:25:59 <tusho> Never heard of it.
14:26:09 <ais523> I've heard of it but can't remember what it is
14:26:21 <tusho> Seems to be Yet Another Tech Comic.
14:27:39 <tusho> [[Endorsements / "Desperately Unfunny." / "The artwork is lame and repetitive, the 'jokes' are either inside software industry jokes or thinly disguised anti-capitalist rantings." / "Are there really 80 people who find any reference to Microsoft in a web comic funny?" / "Why has this been running since 1996? Who actually reads it? Who is the idiot who reads it every day and posts the 'good' ones up on reddit? Doesn't he realize he is wasting his time?"]]
14:27:47 <tusho> the best form of posting criticism on your site as if they're endorsements
14:27:50 <tusho> is when they're totally right.
14:30:46 <tusho> ais523: i've been thinking about copyleft
14:31:01 <ais523> interesting, what conclusions did you come to?
14:31:16 <tusho> i want people to have the right to restrict rights, but I don't want hippies to have the right to take away the rights mentioned in this sentence by using the GPL or similar
14:31:32 <tusho> i guess the only solution is a kind of pseudo-copyleft
14:32:01 * tusho follows ais523's head spinning with his eyes
14:32:44 <ais523> the fundamental problem with all copyrighting schemes is that one person's right to do anything is incompatible with another person's right to do anything
14:32:53 <ais523> so you have to restrict something somewhere to avoid a contradiction
14:33:17 <tusho> ais523: but on the other hand I'm fine with people using my crap in commercial software
14:33:20 <tusho> and not releasing their modifications
14:33:28 <tusho> because I have given them the right to do that
14:34:27 <ais523> well, whether that should be allowable or not rather depends on the software, for instance something I'm doing at the moment is attempting to recompile the shareware GPL compiler I told you about a while ago to make it freeware again
14:34:27 <tusho> pikhq: and you are not me
14:34:36 <pikhq> Mostly because I think everyone should have the right to change whatever software is on their system.
14:34:44 <ais523> it's kind of complicated because the sources they gave don't obviously correspond to the binaries
14:34:50 <ais523> or at least the build system doesn't
14:34:51 <tusho> this is about my software and what I want it to be done with
14:35:01 <AnMaster> ais523, shareware gpl compiler?
14:35:03 <pikhq> Of course, this issue of what rights should apply to software is kinda complicated, since it seems kinda. . . Undecided.
14:35:20 <pikhq> ais523: Shareware GPL?
14:35:27 <ais523> AnMaster: there isn't a straightforward link to it, it's behind several links and ⁎*⁕⁑⁂⁎-protected entries on microchip.com
14:35:29 <tusho> I want to allow people to be able to, say, distribute my software commercially with modifications without releasing it. But I don't want people to be able to make changes under the GPL so that the people mentioned in the previous sentence can't do that, really.
14:35:34 <ais523> as in, you have to register an account to download it
14:35:50 <pikhq> tusho: Then you want the impossible.
14:36:01 <tusho> pikhq: No, that's actually pretty possible (I think)
14:36:04 <ais523> pikhq: AnMaster: basically a microcontroller manufacturer went and rewrote gcc to target their own product
14:36:06 <tusho> it'd just be very awkward wordin
14:36:08 <tusho> and probably falwed
14:36:14 <ais523> then put a shareware restriction on it
14:36:16 <pikhq> Give me a non-copyleft license, and I can add copyleft to it.
14:36:16 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I know what microchip is
14:36:22 <ais523> then released the resulting code and binaries under the GPL
14:36:25 <AnMaster> ais523, don't they make the PIC*?
14:36:27 <ais523> the binaries being shareware
14:36:35 <tusho> pikhq: Which is why I said it'd have to be pseudo-copyleft.
14:36:44 <AnMaster> ais523, was fun writing the serial interrupt stuff
14:36:48 <pikhq> ais523: Contact the Software Freedom Law Center, please.
14:36:49 <ais523> AnMaster: so have I, except I normally use the PIC12F628
14:36:54 <ais523> pikhq: it's legal AFAICT
14:37:03 <AnMaster> ais523, ah maybe it was 628, not sure, 62x anyway
14:37:04 <tusho> pikhq: You can sell GPL software.
14:37:10 <AnMaster> ais523, it was a few years ago
14:37:13 <ais523> because there's nothing to stop you editing out the sharewareness and recompiling
14:37:22 <ais523> except the fact that the build system doesn't work all that well
14:37:32 <pikhq> The sharewareness is in the source code itself?
14:37:42 <ais523> it's even controlled by a #define
14:37:43 <pikhq> Legal, but stupid.
14:37:55 <ais523> atm I reverse-engineered it to simply fake a valid licence
14:38:01 <ais523> which is very easy with the source code installed
14:38:17 <ais523> but I'm not 100% sure that the result of that can be redistributed, so instead I want to recompile without the check for a licence
14:38:21 <AnMaster> ais523, which chip is that compiler for?
14:38:31 <ais523> the 16-bit dsPIC ranges
14:38:33 <tusho> pikhq: Out of curiosity. Say I had written some non-copyleft software (say BSD3 or MIT) and you made some big changes to it. Would you license your changes under the GPL or keep my license?
14:38:53 <pikhq> tusho: I'd keep it under the BSD license.
14:39:00 <tusho> pikhq: Good, at least we agree there
14:39:10 <pikhq> I merely disagree that the BSD license is the *best* free software license...
14:39:15 <ais523> tusho: it would depend on what my changes were
14:39:28 <AnMaster> tusho, I would also keep current license, unless all I did was reuse, say. a 10 line function from you in an existing 2000 line GPL program
14:39:28 <pikhq> Which is by no means justification for a fork.
14:39:28 <tusho> ais523: Unless you were linking to a GPL'd library...
14:39:41 <ais523> tusho: or I was using your program as a library in a GPL program
14:39:47 <ais523> which is possibly even more likely
14:39:48 <AnMaster> tusho, but if I reused more than just a few lines I would keep your license
14:39:49 <tusho> But you know what I meant.
14:40:09 <ais523> tusho: I never assume that
14:40:11 <tusho> anyway, can we all agree on something else license-related: djb is pretty much an idiot regarding his position on licenses
14:40:18 <ais523> or never ought to anyway
14:40:25 <tusho> ais523: daniel j bernstein
14:40:25 <pikhq> Changing the license, unless you have a *really* good reason for it, is just plain stupid, IMO.
14:40:30 <AnMaster> ais523, author of qmail and djbdns
14:40:31 <tusho> basically he doesn't provide a license
14:40:34 <tusho> just a copyright note
14:40:37 <tusho> and argues that you can still change it
14:40:42 <AnMaster> tusho, they are public domain now
14:40:47 <tusho> AnMaster: only some
14:40:55 <tusho> http://cr.yp.to/softwarelaw.html <-- the specific idiocy
14:40:57 <AnMaster> tusho, qmail and djbdns are iirc
14:41:05 <AnMaster> tusho, which is all I use from him
14:41:14 <ais523> I think it might be interesting to write a license which was in fact an esoprogram
14:41:56 <tusho> jesus, this ubersoft comic sucks
14:42:08 <ais523> then why are you still reading it?
14:42:16 <tusho> ais523: it's amusingly bad
14:42:41 <pikhq> Did you start from the start or something?
14:43:08 <pikhq> That was, IIRC, '95.
14:43:18 <AnMaster> I read xkcd, userfriendly and http://www.darthsanddroids.net
14:43:44 <AnMaster> I did read dm of the rings before it completed
14:44:42 <pikhq> I read xkcd, User Friendly, Ubersoft, Saturday Morning Breakfast Comics, Cyanide & Happiness, PvP, Ctrl-Alt-Del, If-Then-Else, Dresden Codak, Penny Arcade, Simulated Comic Product, GPF, and Subnormality.
14:45:00 * pikhq = webcomic fan. :p
14:45:11 <tusho> cyanide & happiness is probably one of the worst webcomics online today that is popular
14:45:24 <pikhq> (note: I only read Ctrl-Alt-Del out of morbid curiosity, not out of enjoyment now)
14:45:32 <pikhq> tusho: CAD is worse.
14:45:37 <pikhq> By orders of magnitude.
14:45:48 <tusho> there are a few funny c&h, but not enough to warrant a whole comic
14:45:57 <AnMaster> the one with "call xxxx-not-l33t"
14:46:32 <pikhq> ifthenelse.comicgen.com
14:46:38 <pikhq> Done by a friend of mine.
14:46:50 <tusho> I always wanted to make a comic about lifeforms in GoL
14:47:53 <pikhq> I also used to read Minus (before it stopped).
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14:56:22 <tusho> apache needs to be able to AddHandler a cgi
14:56:31 <tusho> (so that it gets the file as argv[1] of course)
14:57:01 <tusho> AddHandler /crazyformat-to-html .crazyformat
15:03:43 <pikhq> Argh; I also forgot to mention that I read VGcats.
15:04:00 <pikhq> (you know, the video game comic with an update schedule almost as bad as Dresden Codak's?)
15:04:21 <pikhq> Bleck; I read a lot of comics.
15:04:38 <pikhq> Every few minutes I think of another one that I read.
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15:30:50 <tusho> http://blog.last.fm/2008/08/01/quality-control
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15:39:27 <pikhq> "DHS Allowed to Take Laptops Indefinitely"
15:39:53 <pikhq> Huh. There goes another amendment in the Bill of Rights.
15:40:54 <pikhq> All laptops going through the DHS should have all drives on them encrypted, IMO.
15:41:34 <pikhq> Department of Homeland Security.
15:41:35 <tusho> AnMaster: department of homeland security
15:41:54 <ais523> oh for a moment I thought pikhq was referring to the parcel company
15:41:55 <tusho> True upholders of freedom.
15:42:17 <pikhq> A more appropriate name is the Department of Searchs and Seizures Without Warrent.
15:42:25 <pikhq> s/Warrent/Warrant/
15:42:28 <tusho> pikhq: For Your Security.
15:42:36 <pikhq> Welcome to the police state.
15:42:51 <tusho> Not like the UK isn't going that way, either...
15:43:10 <ais523> because anyone with valuable data can simply store it on a server somewhere and transport a blank laptop across the border
15:43:27 <ais523> then get the data back from the server over the Internet using scp or something like that
15:43:43 <tusho> ais523: Logic? You must be a terrorist.
15:43:48 <tusho> I'm afraid we'll have to do a full body search.
15:44:01 <ais523> but that wouldn't turn up anything either
15:44:13 <ais523> besides the people with the biggest problems with this are apparently businesspeople
15:44:20 <ais523> who often store trade secrets on their laptops
15:44:24 <tusho> That would be a strange porn plot.
15:44:46 <pikhq> The DHS can take 'anything that can hold analog or digital information'.
15:44:55 <tusho> pikhq: So, what, everything.
15:45:10 <pikhq> Legally, they could even take your flesh.
15:45:22 <tusho> Okay, NOW it's a strange porn plot.
15:45:59 <AnMaster> tusho, huh? you are just 12 and shouldn't know about that ;P
15:46:08 <tusho> Oh shut up AnMaster.
15:46:09 <pikhq> If only Amtrak were more usable.
15:46:35 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak
15:46:36 <pikhq> The American passenger train system.
15:46:46 <pikhq> Which has like 3 lines that are actually useful...
15:47:12 <AnMaster> we got quite good trains here in Sweden
15:47:46 <pikhq> Basically, our train system and mass transit systems have been shut down by auto manufacturers and the Federal Highway Commission.
15:48:12 <pikhq> Basically, our country has been screwed over by our government.
15:48:26 <AnMaster> Why didn't I *get* it right this time!
15:48:36 <tusho> AnMaster: ITYM '?'
15:48:40 <tusho> '!' denotes an exclamation.
15:49:08 <ais523> <tusho> ITYM '?' <AnMaster> "ITYM"?
15:49:17 <tusho> AnMaster: Interrobang.
15:49:21 <ais523> if only you'd used the same sort of quote mark...
15:49:22 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrobang
15:49:37 <AnMaster> looks like a fuzzy ? in this font
15:49:44 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrobang
15:49:48 <ais523> it's a cross between ? and !
15:54:28 <tusho> should I keep the current
15:54:41 * ais523 waits for the end of the sentence
15:54:45 <tusho> plugin :name => "description" do
15:55:02 <tusho> should I remove the toplevel 'plugin' and do:
15:55:09 <tusho> description "description"
15:55:19 <tusho> i mean, arguably the whole block is redundant
15:55:23 <AnMaster> tusho, one thing you *should* add is API version
15:55:42 <AnMaster> so if you change it in future you can have backward/forward compatiblity
15:56:13 <tusho> whenever I change the api I change all the plugins
15:56:20 <tusho> and nobody else will write a plugin apart from maybe ais523.
15:56:28 <tusho> and even then it'll probably go in the repository
15:56:31 <tusho> and thus updated when the api does.
15:56:31 <AnMaster> tusho, I might, just to annoy you
15:56:36 <tusho> AnMaster: then I'll let it break.
15:56:50 <AnMaster> tusho, envbot interface plugin XD
15:59:31 <ais523> tusho: invent an entirely different format for the plugins and then convert it into tusho-format-of-the-week with m4
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15:59:50 <tusho> I didn't offer a third option
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16:04:23 <tusho> ff3.1a awesomebar has wildcards
16:04:56 <ais523> I like the awesomebar actually
16:05:05 <ais523> some people don't because they type the start of the URL
16:05:06 <tusho> but I want regexps in it too
16:05:12 <tusho> instead of just wildcards
16:05:16 <ais523> but I've got used to being able to type slr and flr and get the appropriate pages
16:05:56 <tusho> AnMaster: firefox 3 location bar
16:06:06 <tusho> location/history/bookmark searcher all in one
16:06:08 <AnMaster> <ais523> some people don't because they type the start of the URL
16:06:15 <AnMaster> well I normally type or copy the url
16:06:26 <ais523> if you type the whole URL it works the same way as all other browsers
16:06:42 <AnMaster> ais523, and if you type the start it tab completes I hope?
16:06:45 <ais523> but if you type a few letters, FF3 searches your bookmarks and the URLs and titles of recently visited websites
16:06:49 <ais523> and it does tab-complete I think
16:07:05 <AnMaster> if it works as in ff2 I will be happy
16:07:06 <ais523> yes it does, just tested
16:07:39 <ais523> many people think it's different from FF2, but in my experience I can do everything with it I could before, and more
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16:08:57 <ais523> it looked the same here too
16:09:06 <tusho> AnMaster: it doesn't just complete on prefixes
16:09:23 <tusho> if you have a page titled Foo djsdfksdfsdf Baz in your history, and not anything else with thatm iddle word
16:09:26 <tusho> and you type that middle word
16:09:31 <tusho> it'll fill in the url for that page
16:09:44 <tusho> also 'foo bar baz quux' would be matched by 'bar quux'
16:10:07 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, because inferior software is cooler
16:10:24 <tusho> it completes on urls too
16:10:32 <tusho> but it completes anywhere in the URL, not just the start
16:10:38 <tusho> and it also completes on page titles etc
16:11:25 <AnMaster> firefox is just getting more and more bloated all the time
16:11:25 <ais523> I find it pretty useful
16:11:31 <tusho> yeah, I so love not being able to get to pages really quickly and easily
16:11:34 <ais523> but there really ought to be two firefoxes
16:11:38 <tusho> it's totally hardcore to go diggin for it
16:11:42 <ais523> one that's very stripped down, and one that's bloated
16:11:59 <tusho> because, you know what? I just love unusable software that can't find things quickly for me.
16:12:04 <tusho> Who cares about finding things? pffft.
16:12:10 <ais523> then we can both be happy
16:12:19 <AnMaster> ais523, what about a kernel like config?
16:12:24 <AnMaster> where you can select each feature
16:12:36 <ais523> well, maybe they could do that with extensions
16:12:44 <ais523> have a very simple browser, and everything else is extensions
16:12:58 <tusho> i love how AnMaster calls finding things quickly and easily "bloat", though
16:13:05 <tusho> i have your new browser AnMaster - I call it 'telnet'.
16:13:13 <tusho> It has absolutely no tools for finding things.
16:17:48 <AnMaster> tusho, it is not a useful feature to me, being able to select a word and google for it is however
16:18:02 <tusho> you cannot pass judgement on that until you try it
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17:06:45 <tusho> ais523: you'll be pleased to know that i'm implementing botte no
17:06:54 <tusho> and sometime today I hope to have the link log up and running
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18:19:39 <tusho> ais523: do you think every handler should boil down to a regexp and a closure?
18:19:43 <tusho> it seems like the best, and easiest way to do it
18:19:55 <ais523> possibly, that's how bsmnt_bot did it
18:20:16 <tusho> it's how all of my bots have done it, really
18:24:08 <tusho> ais523: do you think it needs hooks for each part of the bot code (that is, [[yield_to_plugins :startup]] or whatever) or just handlers for irc stuff?
18:24:11 <tusho> I think the latter should be fine
18:51:09 -!- lament has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly lagged..
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19:14:04 <tusho> meanwhile, I typo'd while typing "tpyos"
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21:01:16 <ihope> So, who's going to write the Proce interpreter? :-)
21:01:53 <lament> and what does it do? generate sound?
21:02:04 <ihope> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Proce, I imagine.
21:02:15 <ihope> It can generate sound if you listen to one of the signals.
21:02:49 <lament> oh, i didn't realize it was an esolang
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21:04:52 <lament> something is horribly wrong about that definition.
21:06:39 <lament> how does it know the value of sin at 0?
21:13:27 <lament> i don't get how it works at all.. nor lowpass :(
21:13:44 <lament> shouldn't lowpass have a cutoff constant in it somewhere? where does it go?
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21:29:34 <lament> ihope: answer my multitudinous questions
21:29:46 <ihope> lament: it's a definite integral. At 0, it's the integral from 0 to 0, which tends to be 0.
21:29:54 <lament> with clarity, dignity and poise
21:30:25 <ihope> What's the definition of the low pass filter?
21:30:32 <ihope> The one on the page?
21:31:28 <ihope> This has a cutoff constant thing: low = k*i!(sig - low)
21:32:00 <ihope> Excuse me for a split second.
21:33:26 <lament> i know nothing about dsp :(
21:33:52 <lament> digital signal processing?
21:34:02 <lament> so how would one, mm, implement this
21:34:13 <ihope> Oh. I thought digital signal processing was stuff like compression and digital error correction.
21:34:40 <ihope> One would implement this using a floating point variable or so for every signal and every integral.
21:35:04 <ihope> If you differentiate something, use a variable for now and a variable for one step ago so that you'll be able to calculate the derivative.
21:35:19 <lament> if you just do that, all the errors would add up and it'd be all over the place.
21:35:34 <lament> (but on the plus side, it's easy)
21:35:41 <ihope> That's what error correction is for.
21:35:51 <lament> for error correction you need quite a bit more than that.
21:36:35 <SimonRC> maybe one can write a symbolic integrator for those restricted cases?
21:37:15 <lament> or simply have the interpreter go on the mathworld integrator website :)
21:37:28 <ihope> As the sampling rate approaches infinity, the interpreter will approach perfection.
21:37:54 <ihope> Assuming it uses arbitrary-precision floating points or something, which make things really ugly, in fact.
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21:38:15 <lament> yes, but sampling rate doesn't actually approach infinity.
21:38:29 <lament> this is solving differential equations
21:38:36 <ihope> 44100Hz is close enough to infinity that we can't hear the difference, at least.
21:38:48 <lament> ihope: for the first couple of seconds, at least
21:39:23 <lament> i had a course on just this subject, don't remember much already
21:39:28 <ihope> If you're going to write an actual program in this, you'll want to make small errors not matter anyway.
21:40:10 <ihope> I think you can make a signal that's -1 when another signal is negative, 1 when it's positive.
21:40:18 <lament> not sure how you'd use it for "progarmming"
21:40:50 <lament> seems more interesting for music generation...
21:41:09 <ihope> And things like pianos aren't fragile: the noise from air molecules hitting strings randomly doesn't cause them to make random horrible noise.
21:41:15 <lament> implementing a piano in this would be tricky :)
21:41:28 <ihope> Help me, then! :-)
21:42:18 <ihope> sin = i!(1 - i!sin) goes at 1 Hz. Make it go at 440.
21:43:01 <ihope> Actually, make that sin = i!i!sin, since we're probably going to pluck the integrals anyway.
21:43:31 <ihope> Unless you actually want to try to control it using one input signal.
21:44:10 <ihope> I like the challenge of that, actually. :-P
21:44:14 <lament> sin = i!i!sin = zero function
21:44:30 <ihope> Not if you set the integrals in the middle of execution.
21:44:58 <ihope> So let's have a "sndin" signal that functions as input. You hit a string by... being clever.
21:45:48 <ihope> I guess in real life, you don't play a piano by putting a speaker next to it and playing piano sounds into the speaker. You play it by pressing keys.
21:45:58 <ihope> So let's have a "key pressed" signal for every key.
21:47:21 <ihope> Damp each string or not based on whether the signal is 1 or not; pluck them based on the derivative of the signal.
21:48:53 <ihope> ...well, damp it a lot when the signal is 0, damp it a little when it's 1.
21:48:57 <lament> this is too complicated :)
21:49:03 <ihope> aivhi = i!i!aivhi and you have a string that vibrates at 1 Hz. We want it to vibrate at 440 Hz instead.
21:49:31 <ihope> aivhi = 440*400*i!i!aivhi?
21:49:50 <ihope> It is absolutely not too complicated. :-)
21:50:52 <ihope> Writing a piano in Proce.
21:51:08 <ihope> My analog signal processing esolang.
21:51:31 <lament> ihope: making it sound like a piano mostly involves tweaking a lot and a lot of stuff, though.
21:51:45 <ihope> AnMaster: on the wiki.
21:52:02 <ihope> lament: indeed. That being the case, I don't want it to sound exactly like a piano. :-)
21:52:41 <lament> otherwise it's pretty boring
21:53:12 <lament> you create a bunch of frequencies, then you damp them with different profiles
21:53:37 <lament> not that i have any idea how to do any of that in Proce
21:55:09 <AnMaster> the wiki page only mentions sin()
21:55:27 <AnMaster> ihope, and what are d! r! and i!?
21:55:29 <ihope> So, aivhi = 440*440*i!i!aivhi is a 440 Hz oscillator. We want it to resonate, so we add a constant times the "sound" signal, and we want it to damp, so we subtract a constant times its integral, I think.
21:56:03 <ihope> AnMaster: there are no functions in existence already; you have to define your own. d!, r! and i! differentiate, rectify (chop out all the negative bits) and integrate, respectively.
21:56:21 <AnMaster> ihope, so how is sin() defined?
21:56:43 <AnMaster> ihope, is it part of the standard library ;P
21:57:05 <ihope> AnMaster: include it at the top of all your programs, if you want.
22:00:41 <ihope> I can think of a useful extension.
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22:03:30 <ihope> Definitions such as low(sig) = i!(sig - low(sig)), so that you don't need to define a new low-pass filter for every signal.
22:03:42 <ihope> And it'd be evaluated at compile time, so Don't Get Any Ideas.
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22:09:04 <ihope> I imagine a post-digital age, when artificial intelligence methods are used to simulate digital processing on analog machines.
22:10:08 <pikhq> ihope: Sounds infinitely recursive.
22:10:13 <SimonRC> analog systems are not known for being good at simulating digital ones
22:12:00 <tusho> ihope: I have a name for it. Shteam-schmeam-punk.
22:12:09 <tusho> Wait, no. Steam-schmeam-punk.
22:18:39 <moozilla> i want to make an esolang based on the concept of emergence
22:18:56 <moozilla> but im not sure how i would do so
22:19:01 <ihope> SimonRC: isn't the universe pretty much analog anyway?
22:19:27 <SimonRC> and it is with extreme inefficiency that we get it to do digital things
22:19:38 <ihope> SimonRC: and that's why we should embrace the analogness of it all.
22:20:14 <SimonRC> depends on what you mean by "analogue"
22:20:22 <ihope> That's why we should use artificial intelligence to do it for us. :-)
22:20:26 <lament> moozilla: you mean like game of life, or you mean like any language with functions in it?
22:20:48 <ihope> moozilla: sounds very difficult but very interesting. :-)
22:21:04 <ihope> Well, I guess things like Conway's Game of Life aren't "very difficult".
22:21:16 <moozilla> im not too familiar with the game of life
22:21:49 <moozilla> i'm envisioning something where there are symbols and the code 'emerges' from how they are laid out
22:29:40 <lament> moozilla: sounds like programming
22:30:23 <moozilla> heh that was sort of an ambiguous way of putting it
22:31:09 <moozilla> my goal is to make the actual code the hardest to find thing
22:32:04 <ihope> You mean the "actual code" is hard to find given what you feed to the implementation?
22:32:14 <ihope> Or given what you want the program to do?
22:32:30 <lament> moozilla: sounds like programming in Brainfuck.
22:33:32 <lament> have you looked at brainfuck... or, say, assembly?
22:33:49 <moozilla> brainfuck is fairly obvious though
22:35:19 <moozilla> "In philosophy, systems theory and the sciences, emergence is the way complex systems and patterns arise out of a multiplicity of relatively simple interactions."
22:35:42 <ihope> Oh, I think I know what you mean.
22:35:50 <moozilla> i want the code to be the "side-effects"
22:36:20 <ihope> The same way that in the Real World, life is a "side-effect" of the laws of physics?
22:37:05 <ihope> Excuse me for a moment while I tinker with scales.
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22:39:38 <SimonRC> ihope: well, excuse me while I scale with tinkers
22:41:20 <SimonRC> moozilla: Isn't that like looking for a way to get rid of fractions from a system of numbers that has a multiplicative inverse.
22:41:31 <SimonRC> or trying to invent a better sort of integer?
22:41:48 <moozilla> it sounds like it'd be cool to me
22:42:10 <ihope> moozilla: I agree.
22:42:30 <moozilla> i just can't think of a way to implement it
22:46:51 * ihope continues calculating his scale
22:50:32 <ihope> It would be semi-tragic if Notepad were to crash right now.
22:54:49 <moozilla> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Primordial
22:54:59 <moozilla> this is sort of what i was thinking about
22:55:08 <ihope> The intervals from C, according to Scala: unison, septimal neutral second, major whole tone, septimal minor third, major third, perfect fourth, septimal tritone, perfect fifth, septimal minor sixth, major sixth, harmonic seventh, classic major seventh, octave.
22:55:35 <ihope> With septimal intervals for maximum harmonic content, of course.
22:56:10 <lament> moozilla: sounds like a more complicated version of game of life.
22:56:42 <moozilla> more complicated is always good :)
22:56:52 <ihope> Sounds like a zero-player version of Go, actually.
22:56:55 <lament> yes, but doesn't necessarily lead to any... emergent properties :)
22:57:18 <ihope> And we all know that a zero-player version of Go is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity.
22:58:51 <lament> zero player version of go sounds really boring
22:59:05 <lament> the game ends right away because there are no players who haven't passed!
23:00:21 <SimonRC> but you can't end there, as there is undecided territory
23:00:41 <lament> you can end at any time
23:00:59 <lament> and it's not undecided
23:02:43 <ihope> s/version/variant/
23:05:06 <moozilla> an esolang based on the game of Go
23:05:23 <ihope> Hmm. Turns out that in this scale of mine, all the black keys are flat to a significant degree except for CD, which is sharp by over half a semitone.
23:06:00 <ihope> Not to mention that it's a complicated 35/32 interval away from unison.
23:06:10 <lament> sounds painful to hear
23:06:42 <ihope> That particular note, yes.
23:07:44 <ihope> Luckily, it's the fourth key to be flattened, if you're flattening. It's the second key to be sharpened.
23:08:06 * ihope listens to major chords
23:09:04 <lament> i knew that haskell wannabe was useful for something
23:09:22 <lament> by the way, tinkering with scales and tunings is for complete losers and nutjobs.
23:09:58 <ihope> All the major chords with white tonics sound pretty good, except for E, which has C#.
23:10:23 <ihope> I think nobody uses Scala except people who tinker with scales and tunings.
23:10:29 <SimonRC> scala is more of an OCaml wannabe, surely?
23:10:52 <SimonRC> ihope: is that the FP-for-the-JVM one?
23:11:01 <ihope> SimonRC: I have no idea.
23:11:16 <tusho> SimonRC: yes it is
23:11:20 <ihope> You're not thinking I'm referring to a programming language called Scala, are you?
23:11:24 <tusho> ihope: yes, we were.
23:11:33 <lament> ihope: i wasn't, but i enjoyed confusing the rest of the channel.
23:11:48 <tusho> well, my joke still works
23:14:22 <tusho> What audio file type does it generuut?
23:14:37 <ihope> tusho: I haven't written an interpreter.
23:15:05 <ihope> I have to finish tinkering, and then I have to think about this emergence thing.
23:16:02 * ihope listens to chords again
23:18:07 <moozilla> ihope: for the emergence thing there could be the visible program which does what it looks like it does, and then the side-effects of each function in that program. the results are the combined results of the two
23:28:43 <ihope> C major is perfect, G major is perfect, D major sounds perfect but isn't (perhaps listening to 19 equal temperament has destroyed my sense of tune), A major sounds terrible, E major sounds perfect, B major sounds perfect, F/G major sounds terrible, Db major sounds terrible, Ab major sounds terrible, Eb major sounds pretty good, Bb major sounds pretty good, F major is perfect.
23:29:18 <ihope> Three of the four terrible-sounding ones contain C/D.
23:30:25 <ihope> That is patently false, sir. I have never employed a nut in my entire life.
23:31:10 <tusho> ihope, you have crazy ears.
23:31:28 * tusho 's ears are terrible at distinguishing or recognizing all the different whatsits.
23:31:32 <lament> i think he's just crazy
23:31:35 <tusho> I can hear an awful lot of stuff, though.
23:31:42 <lament> people who tinker with tunings are crazy people
23:31:44 * ihope tries putting C/D a perfect fifth above F/G
23:32:46 <lament> crazy in the same sense that pseudo-math guys trying to square the circle are crazy
23:32:58 <lament> or this guy: http://members.aol.com/daharrell/
23:33:12 <lament> alternative tunings people are exactly the same kind of nutjob
23:35:41 <tusho> what does ai_wheel actually do btw
23:35:43 <tusho> I might try and run it
23:36:03 <tusho> it seems to use excel for its configuration files
23:36:07 <ihope> It's a simulation no more sophisticated than Creatures, I think, except that it has tools.
23:36:34 <tusho> Norns that you can't look at, don't make any sound, and that aren't fun.
23:36:38 <tusho> What more could I want?
23:38:26 <ihope> It claims to be "the most powerful tool in the history of cognitive science", and it has very few Google hits.
23:38:47 * ihope gives it one more: WHEEL HARRELL AI
23:39:00 <lament> it's written by a complete nutjob. A crazy person. Somebody who is not sane. Just like people who come up with alternative tunings.
23:40:14 <ihope> Scala says, "Try setting C/D to 21/20."
23:41:19 <tusho> Voynich manuscript.
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23:42:08 <ihope> Thank you; I'd forgotten the name of that thing.
23:43:01 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript & http://voynich.nu/ & http://inamidst.com/voynich/
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23:52:02 <KingOfKarlsruhe> wow lolcode interpreter in python :) YES http://www.dalkescientific.com/writings/diary/archive/2007/06/01/lolpython.html
23:53:10 <tusho> KingOfKarlsruhe: very no
23:54:33 <SimonRC> the conlanging community has exactly the word for that kind of thing: relex
23:54:53 <SimonRC> it is a language that is created by changing the words of another language
23:55:31 <tusho> SimonRC: Also known as "the language you created when you were 5-7"
23:56:11 <SimonRC> I didn't conlang t that time
23:56:32 <tusho> SimonRC: Don't tell me you didn't invent a couple of words for english concepts.
23:56:39 <tusho> Everyone did that.
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23:59:26 <ihope> It's a fancy way of saying "indeterminate".
23:59:44 <ihope> And not just a little bit indeterminate, but completely and utterly indeterminate.
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