00:16:18 <pikhq> You know, I think we need Egobot back.
00:16:25 <pikhq> Only much, much more robust.
00:16:31 <tusho> that would be botte
00:16:37 <tusho> If Only It Were Done(TM)
00:17:16 <pikhq> If only I'd bother.
00:17:38 <tusho> pikhq: botte's planned to have fun stuff like an #esoteric link log
00:17:46 <tusho> '.l url description' in the channel adds it to the link log
00:17:55 <tusho> and an atom feed will be provided
00:18:13 <pikhq> I think it'd need to start with being robust.
00:18:22 <pikhq> Which Egobot sure as hell was not.
00:18:27 <pikhq> Didn't it crash daily?
00:18:54 <tusho> Botte should be pretty stable.
00:19:09 <tusho> It'll be written in Ruby (yeah, yeah, I know you hate it)
00:19:26 <tusho> but C++ programs, especially ones written like they're in C like egobot, generally are prone to crash more than scripting language ones
00:19:35 <tusho> esp. since egobot's parser was ... rusty, to say the least
00:21:14 <pikhq> C++ programs can be written damned well.
00:21:20 <tusho> pikhq: I didn't deny that, of course.
00:21:28 <pikhq> And, actually, I'm ashamed at Gregor for *not* doing it right.
00:21:34 <tusho> But what I'm saying is for a bloomin' IRC bot, C++ is an unneccesary fuss.
00:21:37 <pikhq> Of course, that was one of his earlier programs.
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02:43:49 <GregorR> Interesting updates to calamari's Facebook page recently: Mormon->no religion, joined the groups "I'm a Secular Humanist" and "Ex-Mormons Worldwide".
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14:03:58 <AnMaster> tusho, when you see ais523 please point him to http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=18937 \o/
14:04:06 <AnMaster> my first arch linux package is c-intercal :D
14:04:14 <tusho> AnMaster: given up on gentoo?
14:04:23 <tusho> http://intercal.freeshell.org/download/ick-${pkgver/./-}.tgz
14:04:27 <tusho> fun bug in the web interface
14:04:40 <AnMaster> tusho, I just use arch on this old p3
14:04:56 <tusho> this off-handedly reminds me that I need to write that article about os x
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14:11:37 <AnMaster> tusho, indeed it seems the web interface can't handle bash substitutions, but the program used to build packages can do that
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15:36:01 <tusho> concatenative languages are fun
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15:39:21 <AnMaster> blergh I don't understand how to translate the versioning of clc-intercal
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17:18:14 <tusho> bad time, I'm about to disappear soon for ~25m
17:18:25 <ais523> ok, that's fine, it normally takes me about that long to read my email
17:18:30 <ais523> and I'm not very communicative during that time
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18:20:18 <Mony> oh... in french, we say "Re", when we see again a person
18:20:49 <Mony> but, i say "ruse", 'cause i think it's pretiest
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19:33:42 <AnMaster> ais523, http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=18937 <-- c-intercal
19:34:31 <ais523> AnMaster: is that your fault or did you just come across it?
19:34:46 <ais523> ah, it's yours by the look of it
19:34:57 <AnMaster> ais523, is there some RSS feed or news letter for new C-INTERCAL releases?
19:35:07 <ais523> news://alt.lang.intercal
19:35:20 <ais523> no, seriously, that's the official place
19:35:26 <ais523> and it doesn't seem to be used by anyone else atm
19:35:32 <ais523> although it ought to be
19:35:45 <ais523> it's known to have a large number of lurkers despite having no traffic
19:35:57 <ais523> so it's an unusual case of a newsgroup that lots of people read but nobody writes in
19:36:06 <ais523> well, large for esolang stuff
19:36:08 <AnMaster> ais523, yes it got traffic "Get Green-Fuel Solution$$$ 65482"
19:36:24 <ais523> oh, I just ignore the spam
19:36:36 <AnMaster> but there is no good spam filter
19:37:09 <ais523> besides it's so dead that even the spam doesn't come up very often
19:37:25 <olsner> at work, I have like 30k actual e-mails and (so far) 0 spam e-mails :D
19:39:21 <ErkiDerLoony> Because I changed my provider and the new one does not have a news server ...
19:39:40 <AnMaster> ErkiDerLoony, newszilla6.xs4all.nl is a free ipv6 readonly one
19:39:53 <AnMaster> don't know of any that allow posting
19:41:39 <AnMaster> ais523, and what did you mean "fault" with the package
19:41:50 <ais523> AnMaster: responsibility
19:42:07 <AnMaster> it is as if you didn't like packages ;P
19:42:22 <AnMaster> ais523, however the Arch guidelines say version number should be same as upstream
19:42:26 <AnMaster> which will cause issues of course
19:43:29 <AnMaster> well they prefer same as upstream exactly
19:43:38 <ais523> well, let them figure it out
19:43:48 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway AUR = user maintained
19:43:54 <ais523> eso stuff is useful for pressure-testing other people's systems
19:44:13 <ais523> for instance CLC-INTERCAL exposed a bug in mandb that was capable of crashing man completely
19:44:22 <AnMaster> ais523, I doubt it will ever become part of the community repo
19:44:25 <ais523> apparently it doesn't like man pages to have spaces in their filenames
19:44:49 <AnMaster> why the heck did CLC-INTERCAL want that?
19:44:58 <AnMaster> ais523, also it isn't like anyone except debian use mandb
19:45:12 <ais523> how do they get apropos databases then?
19:45:39 <ais523> I'll stick with my autoconf thing anyway, as it should recognise that mandb isn't needed
19:45:40 <AnMaster> makewhatis - Create the whatis database
19:46:07 <AnMaster> ais523, makewhatis is run by cron once a week here
19:46:28 <ais523> well an install isn't really an install if your program isn't properly installed until next week
19:47:00 <AnMaster> anyway I have to patch the change of /usr/share/info/dir away on all systems
19:47:08 <AnMaster> because it cause errors when you install to DESTDIR
19:47:22 <ais523> AnMaster: I downgraded that to a warning for the next version
19:47:25 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact arch strips all info pages by default
19:49:14 <ais523> anyway I tried C-INTERCAL on cygwin, it worked 'out of the box'
19:49:19 <ais523> -F didn't work but I wasn't really sure if it would
19:49:38 <ais523> hmm... what OS should I try next?
19:49:48 <ais523> the issue is that I've done pretty much all the OSs I have access to now
19:49:57 <ais523> AnMaster: SunOS was the first OS I ran it on
19:50:04 <ais523> before I even got a computer that ran Linux
19:50:21 <ais523> I don't see why it wouldn't
19:50:28 <ais523> although I'll probably test again some time before the next release
19:50:36 <ais523> it needs a bit of tweaking to work around the limitations of Sun lex
19:50:41 <ais523> but there's information on that in the README
19:51:04 <ais523> (basically you need to preallocate memory with a set of directives, the error messages tell you exactly what to do so it's surprising that lex doesn't just do it itself
19:51:26 <AnMaster> ais523, what about Solaris then?
19:51:33 <ais523> I don't have a copy of it to try
19:51:41 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc it is free nowdays
19:51:52 <ais523> yes, there's OpenSolaris
19:52:04 <ais523> although all sorts of interesting questions for that were opened up by the SCO vs. Novell case
19:52:20 <ais523> apparently SCO sold Sun a license to open-source Solaris that they weren't allowed to sell
19:52:29 <ais523> and nobody's entirely sure what the result of that will be
19:52:56 <AnMaster> wait SCO wasn't allowed? by who?
19:53:25 <ais523> AnMaster: basically they were trying to sell something that wasn't theirs in the first place
19:53:33 <ais523> which was the rights to open-source AT&T Unix
19:53:39 <ais523> at least that's what the court ruled
19:53:50 <AnMaster> so why did they even try to sell it?
19:54:40 <AnMaster> well I mean, if AT&T owns the stuff how could they sell any of what they tried to claim they did
19:54:51 <ais523> well, they said they owned it and presumably Sun believed them
19:54:58 <ais523> and they claimed they owned it in the courts too, they just lost
19:55:31 <AnMaster> but solaris isn't based on AT&T unix is it?
19:55:45 <ais523> not sure, probably bits of it are
19:55:59 <ais523> I can't imagine that it's all BSD
19:56:13 <AnMaster> some of it is probably from scratch
19:56:53 <ais523> well, they can open-source those bits legally
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19:56:59 <ais523> but bits of it are likely to not be owned by them
19:57:03 <ais523> nor SCO, as it turned out
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19:57:37 <AnMaster> ais523, and what did AT&T say then?
19:57:48 <ais523> well, Novell claim that they own the copyrights now
19:57:52 <ais523> which hasn't been proven either way
19:57:58 <ais523> but SCO claimed to have bought them from Novell
19:58:07 <ais523> and Novell have proved that they didn't sell them to them
19:58:13 <pikhq> SCO vs. Novell went to court a while back.
19:58:26 <ais523> pikhq: yes, that's what I'm talking about, I'm giving a quick summary for AnMaster
19:58:40 <pikhq> It is the verdict of the court that Novell owns the copyright to UNIX.
19:58:51 <pikhq> Well, those parts which are under copyright at all.
19:58:52 <ais523> pikhq: not quite, it is the verdict of the court that Novell didn't sell it to SCO
19:59:14 <ais523> I don't think it's been conclusively proved that Novell ever owned it in the first place, but it does seem plausible
19:59:18 <ais523> it certainly changed hands a lot
19:59:23 <pikhq> (a very, *very* solid chunk of UNIX is in the public domain, thanks to AT&T vs. BSDi)
19:59:42 <ais523> pikhq: yes, I agree with that, BSD is pretty safe
19:59:47 <ais523> but there are non-BSD Unices
20:00:03 <AnMaster> well linux isn't based on that either
20:00:15 <ais523> well, obviously, SCO were claiming it were but nobody believes them
20:00:42 <ais523> it's pretty clear Linux was written from scratch, even if it does have a file called errno.h in it
20:00:59 <AnMaster> of course it does, that is in the damn POSIX specs
20:01:07 <ais523> (most of SCO's arguments seem obviously wrong to a programmer but might possibly confuse a non-tech-savvy judge)
20:01:55 <pikhq> Actually, that case ruled that early non-BSD Unices were public domain, IIRC.
20:02:07 <pikhq> (ones before AT&T started selling UNIX)
20:02:44 <ais523> but it's been modified since then
20:03:20 <pikhq> Of course, the Unices not in public domain or under the BSD license are not exactly floating around in the open...
20:04:02 <AnMaster> I'm afraid I didn't understand that idiom(?)
20:04:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: Meaning: you're not exactly going to *see* various non-free Unices' source code.
20:06:07 <pikhq> Of course, SCO seems to operate under the influence of a variety of hallucinogens, explaining their court case.
20:06:34 <ais523> well, there's a major conspiracy theory that someone was paying them to keep it going as long as possible
20:06:47 <ais523> also it increased their share price for a bit while people thought they actually had a chance, that didn't last long though
20:07:27 <pikhq> Actually, the only conspiracy theory is concerning the *purpose* of Microsoft's fairly large licensing agreement with them.
20:07:45 <ais523> pikhq: you aren't reading enough conspiracy theories, then
20:08:13 <pikhq> Insanely large payouts to SCO for no apparent reason are a matter of public record. ;)
20:08:31 <pikhq> (I mean, honestly: Microsoft buying SCOsource licenses? Why?!?)
20:08:36 <ais523> well, they found out what Microsoft had allegedly bought
20:09:40 <tusho> even if it was a sound contract
20:09:44 <tusho> they got bullied in to it
20:09:49 <tusho> and caved in as one of the largest commercial linux outfits
20:10:37 <ais523> the Novell-Microsoft contract
20:10:48 <ais523> where Novell and Microsoft agreed not to sue each other over patents
20:10:59 <ais523> Microsoft paid Novell a lot of money for it too
20:11:09 <ais523> and the result was bad press for Novell
20:12:05 <tusho> microsoft are probably on the death row
20:12:14 <tusho> recovering from vista will be nigh-on impossible
20:12:21 <tusho> it'll be a loooooooooooooong trawl though...
20:12:28 <ais523> they've already announced the vaporware for the next version
20:12:34 <ais523> in fact two next versions
20:12:39 <ais523> both Windows 7 and something they call Midori
20:12:50 <ais523> although loads of things are called Midori because it's a common Japanese word
20:13:01 <pikhq> Midori, in concept, seems very, *very* insecure.
20:13:14 <tusho> AnMaster: green as in ecological
20:13:16 <tusho> like trees and shit
20:13:19 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a word for a colour, it has a similar meaning to "green"
20:13:32 <ais523> but the two aren't exactly the same
20:13:43 <tusho> midori kind of signals how out of touch microsoft are
20:13:44 <AnMaster> ais523, so what shade of green then?
20:13:45 <pikhq> Basically, their security model: if the kernel is secure, then the OS is secure. If the kernel is insecure, then welcome to DOS.
20:13:51 <tusho> they come up with a project which is like a bastardised TUNES
20:13:52 <ais523> I don't know, I'm not an expert on Japanese
20:13:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's just green.
20:14:29 <tusho> WINDOZE "MO' HA VEY"
20:14:33 <pikhq> It does happen to also have the same 'ecological' connotations.
20:14:47 <tusho> [spoiler]WINDOZE MO HA VEY IS PEOPLE^W VISTA[/spoiler]
20:14:58 <tusho> They showed Vista to some people who had never used it
20:15:01 <tusho> but had heard bad things about it
20:15:03 <tusho> and thus disliked it
20:15:12 <tusho> they all loved "Mojave" then they told them it was Vista.
20:15:22 <tusho> Of course, they've carefully selected whose responses they've shown, etc.
20:15:25 <ais523> tusho: I wonder which bit of it they showed them, though?
20:15:28 <pikhq> They showed a 10 minute demo.
20:15:38 <ais523> ah, so they didn't interact with it themselves?
20:15:38 <tusho> pikhq: didn't they let them use it a bit?
20:15:42 <pikhq> It wasn't "here, use this for a few days."
20:15:42 <tusho> in a limited fashion
20:15:47 <tusho> their website seemed to suggest that
20:15:50 <pikhq> It was a scripted demo.
20:15:54 <tusho> like, a 30-hour tour of it that they could actually use
20:16:01 <ais523> no copies from network shares to USB sticks?
20:16:22 <pikhq> Just "Oooh, look. It can run Windows Media Player!"
20:16:31 <pikhq> "Oh, wow. you mean the computer can play vidoes now?"
20:16:42 <ais523> but the last good version of Windows Media Player was the one that came with Windows 98
20:16:54 <tusho> ais523: it has a continuation in Media Player Classic
20:16:59 <tusho> which has the interface of WMP 7
20:17:00 <ais523> ah, that's good to know
20:17:03 <tusho> but modern codecs, etc
20:17:14 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Player_Classic
20:17:32 <AnMaster> I just use mplayer, with win32codecs
20:17:38 <tusho> AnMaster: this is for windows
20:17:48 <tusho> mplayer on windows, while technically possible, is a bit pointless
20:17:54 <AnMaster> tusho, well vlc got a windows version iirc
20:17:54 <ais523> well, normally I'm playing things on Linux so there isn't a problem
20:18:03 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I've got VLC on my USB stick
20:18:04 <tusho> vlc has some major shortcomings
20:18:11 <ais523> it's the usual way to play ogg on Windows, I think
20:19:25 <AnMaster> anyway I haven't used windows for years
20:19:44 <AnMaster> well yes, I have, helped parents with computer problems, but not as my own OS
20:29:02 <psygnisf_> for once i'd like to see a scifi show where computer programs look like computer programs
20:29:23 <ais523> I've seen scifi shows where they're apparently written in COBOL
20:29:48 <pikhq> I'd like to see sci-fi shows written by good sci-fi authors.
20:29:52 <psygnisf_> well, i do know that some stargate has used some JS stuff for replicator code
20:29:55 <Deewiant> Neon Genesis Evangelion had a snapshot of HTML
20:30:11 <psygnisf_> but i'd like to see some real potential code
20:30:54 <psygnisf_> like.. some forth code that actually looks like it does what its supposed to do
20:31:12 <psygnisf_> (i say forth because the NASA types use forth a lot, i hear)
20:32:02 <tusho> Deewiant: lisp too
20:32:05 <tusho> (why do I know this?)
20:32:52 * tusho shrugs. I have never watched the series.
20:32:58 <tusho> I know so much trivia about things I know nothing about...
20:33:26 <Deewiant> hmm, I seem to recall that Serial Experiments Lain had something in Lisp
20:35:19 <psygnisf_> i can imagine SEL having it, definitely
20:35:25 <psygnisf_> they were total nerds, the writers and animators
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20:35:49 <tusho> hmm, i think this is another anime series I know nothing about sans some trivia - doesn't it reference the knights of the lambda calculus?
20:35:53 <tusho> or am I confusing it with something else
20:36:31 <Deewiant> but I'd really like to know where you got the Lisp in NGE :-P
20:36:33 <tusho> In the anime series Serial Experiments Lain, there is a secret society called the Knights of the Eastern Calculus which is a reference to the Knights of the Lambda Calculus.[1]
20:37:05 <tusho> Deewiant: it might have been c
20:37:11 <tusho> i am not good at -accurate- trivia
20:37:23 <ais523> tusho: are you good at making up inaccurate trivia on the spot?
20:37:35 <tusho> ais523: no, but Alan Turing was
20:37:42 <tusho> he won a competition for making up inaccurate trivia on the spot in 1931
20:37:49 <tusho> (a year before he was born)
20:38:48 <psygnisfive> someone comments that such and such doesnt seem very much like something some group of people would do
20:39:11 <Deewiant> tusho: alright, then I'd like to know where you got anything-besides-HTML in NGE »_«
20:39:12 <psygnisfive> ill turn around and make up a long and extensive account of the cultural/historical significance of doing exactly that
20:39:20 <tusho> Deewiant: no idea, sorry
20:39:53 <psygnisfive> we should totally start a contest like that dude omg
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21:47:20 <AnMaster> but what the heck does it actually do?
21:47:41 <AnMaster> shouldn't it, like, have an introduction
21:47:52 <ais523> it seems to maintain a message queue, a bit like the one Windows uses for all its API communications between processes
21:48:01 <ais523> although based on the errno values this seems to be a UNIXised version of that
21:48:03 <AnMaster> C(0gnirts flags -- )Compile a regular expression
21:48:14 <AnMaster> we are going to get lazy it seems
21:48:24 <ais523> AnMaster: that's an optimisation for speed, I thought you liked those?
21:48:40 <ais523> it's a Pascal data type
21:48:41 <AnMaster> ais523, no I mean having a regular expression extension at all
21:48:53 <ais523> AnMaster: what's WTF about that, regexen are useful
21:48:59 <AnMaster> ais523, assume it was over 7 years since I last messed with pascal
21:49:19 <ais523> ok, basically a set is to an enum as checkboxes are to radio boxes
21:49:22 <AnMaster> ais523, tell of any other esolang with regex as a loadable extension
21:49:25 <ais523> an enum can have exactly one value from its set
21:49:35 <ais523> whereas a set can have 0, 1, or more
21:49:57 <tusho> {ais523, tell of any other esolang with regex as a loadable extension}
21:50:01 <AnMaster> or struct { bool first:1; bool second:1; and so on
21:50:02 <tusho> tell me another esolang with loadable extensions.
21:50:12 <tusho> or anything, really.
21:50:17 <tusho> perl is not an esolang
21:50:18 <ais523> tusho: C-INTERCAL has compilable-in extensions
21:50:26 <AnMaster> tusho, see entry on esolang wiki :P
21:50:26 <tusho> as much as cheap jokes would like you to believe.
21:50:28 <ais523> but I haven't done a regex one yet
21:50:41 <lament> loadable extensions are boring
21:50:47 <lament> we need an esolang with unloadable extensions
21:50:59 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a communication primitive
21:51:05 <ais523> to communicate between threads and/or processes
21:51:12 <ais523> you have memory that more than one process can read/write
21:51:14 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but I mean the whole fucking funge space is shared for gods sake!
21:51:15 <tusho> lament: a cannibalistic esolang
21:51:23 <tusho> it can end with removing the remove instruction itself
21:51:57 <AnMaster> ais523, for gods sake, we got >< and p for a reason
21:51:58 <ais523> AnMaster: what if you're sharing memory with a non-Befunge program?
21:52:21 <ais523> that's why it mentions all that POSIX stuff
21:52:31 <AnMaster> well shared memory is optional in POSIX iirc
21:52:55 <tusho> lament: don't see why you need begin/end
21:53:02 <tusho> anyway it's more mind-fucking if you can remove them using their own syntax
21:53:04 <lament> so there's more stuff to remove
21:53:16 <lament> it's a language with unloadable extensions
21:53:20 <ais523> I've written INTERCAL programs that end by ABSTAINING from all commands
21:53:21 <lament> so it needs some extensions to unload
21:53:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't get that one at all
21:54:04 <AnMaster> because no one will be able to understand what it does from the current docs
21:54:19 <ais523> ah, I think I get what it does
21:54:24 <ais523> you have a set of subroutines
21:54:28 <ais523> which any thread can activate
21:54:36 <ais523> and if you activate one it creates a new thread to run it
21:54:45 <ais523> so it's just shorthand for t followed by a jump
21:55:04 <AnMaster> ok... now I'm just waiting for PTHD (pthreads)
21:55:55 <AnMaster> "This is essentially an interface into malloc."
21:56:00 <ais523> ok, I think e's just trying to port the whole of C's stdlib into Befunge
21:56:19 <AnMaster> ais523, he should have gone for a FFI simply
21:56:22 <ais523> I can see how a malloc-alike would be useful in Befunge, though
21:56:48 <ais523> because although Funge-without-fingerprints is fine for things like variable-length arrays
21:56:58 <ais523> it's no good for things like linked lists or n-ary trees
21:57:08 <AnMaster> ais523, this will mess up with stuff like garbage collector
21:57:08 <ais523> (it can do a binary tree with the heapsort storage trick, though)
21:57:49 <ais523> AnMaster: I've implemented malloc in Perl before
21:57:55 <AnMaster> ais523, it can do any of those things without fingerprints, it's Turing complete for gods sake
21:58:01 <ais523> but I rewrote the program in C for speed and just used built-in malloc
21:58:05 <SimonRC> e.g. for python just have a dictionary from int to list of bytes or whatever
21:58:17 <ais523> AnMaster: Turing completeness is not necessary good enough to do shared memory though
21:58:26 <AnMaster> but why the heck do you want it
21:58:32 <SimonRC> (except python already has an interface to malloc)
21:58:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I never used shared memory in any program I ever wrote
21:59:01 <ais523> that doesn't mean it's useless
21:59:19 <ais523> I haven't used it either, but I haven't written the sort of program where it would be useful
21:59:27 <AnMaster> well what sort of program is that?
21:59:50 <ais523> one that needs high-speed communication with a known server
21:59:51 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway of those listed there I will most likely implement LONG when I have time
22:00:03 <ais523> think clients for database programs communicating with a database daemon for instance
22:00:17 <AnMaster> ais523, mysql use sockets at least
22:00:28 <ais523> yes, it does, but shared memory could be faster for some things
22:00:35 <ais523> e.g. if you were storing bitmaps in the database
22:00:50 <ais523> and the database was stored in memory for some reason
22:03:56 <SimonRC> ais523: Does the memory need to be shared as such at any point?
22:04:23 <SimonRC> for a start, transactions will need duplication
22:04:28 <ais523> SimonRC: you can blit it from one process to the other
22:04:34 <ais523> and I was thinking of reading rather than writing
22:04:47 <ais523> writing would have to be slower I expect, due to the need for transactions
22:05:01 <SimonRC> if one process wants to write, transferring ownership is usually good enough
22:05:05 <ais523> but there are asm instructions for blitting nowadays
22:05:22 <ais523> I think so, not sure though
22:05:27 <ais523> and probably faster than doing it the regular wayy
22:06:00 <SimonRC> I have some ideas for an esoteric programming style that relies on really really fast blitting.
22:06:35 <SimonRC> like, a few 100 cycles to transfer 64kb of data
22:07:10 <SimonRC> it would need Smart Memory to be done well
22:07:24 <ais523> I don't think anything blits /that/ fast...
22:07:34 <ais523> except copy-on-write, but that just delays the blit
22:07:57 <SimonRC> I am thinking of reference-free programming
22:08:18 <SimonRC> programmming without pointers or references
22:08:27 <ais523> in Feather, pass by reference and pass by value are indistinguishable
22:08:29 <SimonRC> the idea is very undeveloped
22:08:32 <ais523> because all variables are read-only
22:08:49 <ais523> in my head, I've talked about it a lot but never managed to write a spec for it
22:08:49 <SimonRC> ais523: or Haskell for that matter
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22:08:54 <ais523> I've tried but it's difficult
22:09:36 <ais523> speccing it is non-trivial
22:09:41 <ais523> I think I'll have to write an interp first
22:09:47 <ais523> to see what is and isn't possible
22:09:52 <ais523> and use that as a guide for the spec
22:10:16 <SimonRC> how does it get round the no-mutation problems?
22:10:26 <SimonRC> the same way as most functional langs?
22:10:36 <ais523> you go back in time to the moment a variable received its value
22:10:40 <ais523> and change the value it received
22:10:45 <ais523> so no, not the same way as most functional langs
22:11:30 <tusho> SimonRC: it has eval as a function
22:11:32 <tusho> and you can change the langauge
22:11:40 <tusho> it starts off as a prototype-based language
22:11:44 <tusho> that handles inheritance through time travel
22:11:59 <tusho> you think I'm joking?
22:13:00 <ais523> it's a bit hard to get it usable and self-consistent, though
22:15:17 -!- megatron has changed nick to moozilla.
22:26:23 <tusho> who here wants to test a little design for a site I've been working on
22:26:28 <tusho> technically powered by mediawiki but that's irrelevant
22:26:42 <tusho> just looking for comments & suggestions, realy
22:26:47 <tusho> http://91.105.115.23/on/FooBarBaz:Sandbox
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22:58:10 <tusho> lively channel today
23:00:17 <ais523> it reminds me a bit of Deadfish
23:00:26 <tusho> ais523: it is basically
23:00:31 <tusho> that french guy's first lang
23:00:36 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
23:21:30 <ais523> Deadfish has a square command rather than double and halve, and uses different characters for the commands
23:21:40 <ais523> also it sets the value to 0 if it ever becomes 256 or -1
23:44:21 <Tritonio_> i am reading about cutting down brainfuck's commands...
23:44:27 <ais523> I'm here for a few minutes
23:44:38 <ais523> have you read the Esolang page about cutting it down?
23:44:56 <tusho> gosh, ais523 is still here
23:45:00 <tusho> and it's almost midnight
23:45:12 <ais523> tusho: you can tell if I'm here by looking to see if I'm still here, I disconnect when I leave
23:45:19 <Tritonio_> but the first loop in the code I posted seems like an infinite one... or not?
23:45:44 <tusho> ais523: http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/b/b5/Exploding-head.gif
23:45:47 <ais523> half the BF minimisation page looks wrong to me
23:46:47 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"").
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