00:02:00 Tritonio_: wut 00:02:42 a brainfuck debugger for linux. 00:03:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:03:49 write-only means no debugging :) 00:04:41 O_O 00:05:02 Tritonio_: you don't 00:05:06 just get it right 00:05:07 :P 00:05:54 some things really are easier to get right from the start than debug post-facto 00:06:27 how to write a brainfuck program: 00:06:28 1. get idea 00:06:33 2. formalise basic idea of how it could work in head 00:06:40 3. figure out how you can organize it into a full program 00:06:42 4. do so 00:06:54 5. if the program made by steps 4 fails, go to 3 or maybe 2 00:07:17 basically 1. read problem, 2. think really hard, 3. write down solution 00:07:39 olsner: so brainfuck = haskell? 00:08:06 the difference lies in the "write down solution" step 00:08:35 in haskell you get three lines of beauty, in brainfuck you get a steaming heap of brainfuck 00:10:51 besides, that's not really about haskell... I think it's a feynman quote 00:11:49 well i prefer the normal way... 1 think of the problem. 2 Write down something you think it works. 3 check it for stupid mistakes. 4. put it in a debbuger and fix the rest of the stupid mistakes... 00:12:02 I already use a nice debugger 00:12:07 but it's for windows. 00:12:35 tusho: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman#Quotations_about_Feynman 00:12:52 and for some reason, when run through wine, it still has windows decorations thus it doesn't blend with compiz nicely... 00:12:52 olsner: yes, my joke is still valid 00:12:52 :D 00:13:06 [00:11:51] well i prefer the normal way... 1 think of the problem. 2 Write down something you think it works. 3 check it for stupid mistakes. 4. put it in a debbuger and fix the rest of the stupid mistakes... 00:13:09 awful way to write BF programs 00:13:10 truly awful 00:13:20 it'll produce inferior programs & algorithms and take a lot longer to develop 00:13:40 whatever it works for me... 00:13:59 Tritonio_: don't you want to produce better BF programs? 00:14:04 Besides, you can't do your current way on linux. 00:14:08 Why not take the oppertunity to improve? 00:14:41 how would they be better? when I write the code usually it has only some spare or missing + or - 00:14:56 so a debugger helps... 00:15:53 Tritonio_: because you think exactly how to write the program 00:15:55 then write it out 00:15:57 (with comments) 00:16:17 Tritonio_: hopefully, you should have one comment per each runnable-in-your-head "unit" of code 00:16:26 thus, if one of them has an extra/missing + or -, it'll be obvious 00:18:25 Well usually *I* miss some of the obvious mistakes... So I really need the debugger. If there is not one for linux I will make one. 00:19:32 Tritonio_: i just explained how not to miss them 00:19:37 Normally I don't make huge mistakes, I just miss many small ones... 00:19:46 when you write it out, you have one line being one unit of code (unit: a snippit you can run entirely in your head without problems) 00:19:47 and comment what it's for 00:19:50 then 00:19:52 you review it 00:20:00 and check that each unit does what its comment says it should 00:20:06 and voila 00:22:45 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:23:14 If your current Windows debugger is bfdebug.sf.net, it might work with very little tweaking under Linux with Lazarus. 00:23:22 -!- jix has joined. 00:23:57 (And I've seen at least two Javascript interpreters with at least some debugging facilities, which of course will run anywhere.) 00:24:21 fizzie: do you agree that my method is an easier way to produce bug-free BF though? 00:25:01 Well, I'm not completely convinced a debugger is completely useless. Still, your method is what I've used with the few BF programs I've written. 00:25:43 i am using. brainfuck developer fizzie. it's closed source freeware... 00:25:47 Even with all the comments, I think there has been at least one case of a non-obvious missing "<", though. 00:26:10 especially when you work with loops with unbalanced <> 00:26:29 Well, there's always Wine, if you're so inclined. 00:26:30 * tusho shrugs the key is making the chunks small enough 00:26:35 say, a chunk over 10 characters is wrong 00:26:36 full stop 00:27:13 that what I do now. I run it with Wine. but it doesn't come up with the rest of the windows when I use the Scale plugin of compiz or whatever it is called... 00:27:32 Yes, well, small chunks don't help all that much if your problem is that there's a "<" chunk missing from a multi-page []. 00:29:18 * tusho shrugs - i think they help fine because you see each one both in isolation and in the bigger picture 00:29:26 and if the comments are sufficient you should know something's up 00:30:41 -!- calamari has joined. 00:40:34 optbot: say hi to calamari 00:40:34 tusho: is just added hassle. 00:40:37 optbot: aww 00:40:37 tusho: 78X41E2 00:40:39 optbot! 00:40:40 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Hum ho-hum.. 00:41:28 hi 00:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | there are few viruses that can reproduce without destroying their host, though... 00:47:16 calamari: (optbot is here to keep the topic fresh. he has a conversation mode because, well, because.) 00:47:16 tusho: because ruby has to lookup the + method of Integer with every call because one can redefine the + method of Integer 01:38:19 whooo dvorak keyboard layout! :O 01:39:17 psygnisfive: enjoy your 2 weeks of pain 01:43:16 if you could see my fetlife profile youd know im a masochist :P 01:45:22 but hey whats life without some adventure ey? 01:47:32 -!- tusho has quit ("Leaving..."). 01:48:13 -!- calamari has left (?). 02:32:47 -!- dogface has joined. 02:33:28 I declare that the date is... oh, October -200, 1993. 02:33:47 Actually, let's be more conservative. 02:37:26 Tentative date that school's out... 02:39:29 ...is June 5. Add a week and we get June 12, 2009, so if we call that October 1, 1993, today is (/me waits for his computer to unfreeze) 02:39:46 The date June 12, 2009 is completely arbitrary, by the way. 02:40:19 * dogface continues waiting 02:41:51 So let's say this is October -300, 1993. 02:42:04 And that was arbitrary. Have a nice day. 02:42:16 * dogface waits further 02:43:39 lol what 02:43:48 It's October -300, 1993. 02:44:27 Add a leap day 97 times every 146097 days. 02:44:43 Including the leap days, that is. 02:45:04 * dogface does evil things 02:45:57 Wait, doing evil things would actually be pretty boring. 02:46:13 Hmm, unless I do it that way... 02:46:32 Except there is no such way, which is unfortunate.. 02:50:09 Hmm. phi*sqrt(5) = 2+phi. This sounds like it could be exploited to yield a set of "Fibonacci numbers" that converge to sqrt(2). 02:53:49 Cool, the generating matrix [[1,1][1,0]] has the eigenvalues phi and 1-phi. So what I want is a matrix of integers with eigenvalue sqrt(2). 03:14:27 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:27:00 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 04:01:22 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:45:07 I am doing Evil Tuffs. Go me. 05:05:17 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:22:32 -!- dogface has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:27:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:41:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("lost connection"). 05:44:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:51:56 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 06:34:10 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:34:31 -!- Judofyr has joined. 06:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | if you write a program in JavaScript does that make a web browser an OS?. 06:42:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You're still in denial. It's easier to lie by saying that I'm lying than to face truth."). 06:49:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit. 07:06:02 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 07:26:37 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 07:26:37 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:07:56 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:01:11 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:03:56 -!- moozilla has joined. 09:10:35 -!- Judofyr has joined. 09:10:35 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:11:03 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 09:33:13 -!- Judofyr has quit. 10:13:34 -!- Mony has joined. 10:14:17 hi ! 10:34:54 damn 10:35:00 my idea.... 10:35:01 http://gbatemp.net/index.php?s=fa19c87f3dac3a0ff746e073da8daa1b&showtopic=99804 10:35:06 BrainFuckDS 10:36:31 Well, choose another language. But don't do Befunge, otherwise I won't have anything to do. 10:38:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You're still in denial. It's easier to lie by saying that I'm lying than to face truth."). 10:39:43 malbolge ? xD 10:45:10 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving."). 10:45:19 It's certainly easier to implement than to program in. 10:48:01 sure 11:29:54 -!- tusho has joined. 11:30:36 hi tusho 11:30:43 hi Mony 11:30:45 hi optbot 11:30:46 tusho: http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/%E0%B2%A0_%E0%B2%A0 11:31:26 LOL 11:32:21 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:37:06 AnMaster: took a look now and it seems that you indeed haven't changed frontend-protocol based on my comments back on 2008-03-29 11:37:23 Deewiant, what were those comments 11:37:26 I don't remember 11:37:27 lot of stuff 11:37:29 is ds the one with a touchscreen? 11:37:30 do you keep IRC logs 11:37:34 oklopol: yep 11:38:01 . and , should be plotting and reading pixels then 11:38:04 Deewiant, yes but how long ago? 11:38:05 AnMaster: hmm, it seems that you had a second draft but it's not published 11:38:06 2008-03-31 17:33:12 * AnMaster looks for the first (now outdated) draft 11:38:06 2008-03-31 17:33:16( AnMaster) the second isn't yet redy 11:38:09 would be much more fun 11:38:13 Deewiant, I archive old on cds 11:38:13 AnMaster: 2008-03-29, like I said 11:38:18 blergh 11:38:22 so what is that, 4.5 months 11:38:24 * AnMaster goes looking for said CD 11:38:49 AnMaster: but if you've got that second draft somewhere it might have the stuff in it 11:38:50 AnMaster: dude 11:38:52 use the tunes.org logs 11:38:57 they're in the bloody topic 11:39:04 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.03.29 11:39:06 that might be easier, yes ;-) 11:39:24 Deewiant: maybe he's afraid they've been tampered with 11:39:28 how can he trust them?! 11:39:30 maybe they have!! 11:39:36 optbot: what do you think 11:39:36 Deewiant: I could say "the process providing the 'fs' service" or "the process that's an instance of /foo/bar" or "the process that's using all the CPU time". 11:39:49 Deewiant: he's saying what the editor might make him say 11:39:51 I think he's been tampered with too 11:39:51 in the edited version 11:40:00 :-) 11:40:13 oklopol; One could also do the "bfvga" thing and map the brainfuck memory array to the 256x192-pixel non-touchscreen display. 11:40:52 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:40:55 2008-03-31 17:33:16( AnMaster) the second isn't yet redy <-- not in said log file that tusho posted 11:41:08 '32' 11:41:09 er 11:41:10 '31' 11:41:11 '29' 11:41:16 AnMaster: you do realize that the thing at the beginning of the line is a date/timestamp 11:41:17 ur gud @ reading comprehension 11:41:32 here let me babysit you. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.03.31 11:41:37 and like tusho said, 29 and 31 aren't the same day. ;-) 11:41:38 ah in 31 11:41:46 indeed 11:42:14 Deewiant, I'm still kind of sleepy, yes I know it isn't morning any more but that still doesn't help :P 11:42:26 >_< 11:42:34 AnMaster 11:42:40 why are you writing a language spec 11:42:45 tusho, eh? 11:42:46 if you can't make out the difference between "29" and "31" 11:42:50 tusho, very fun 11:42:59 i wasn't being funny 11:43:03 generally a clear mind would be reccomended... 11:43:07 tusho: I gather he's not writing it right now 11:43:17 Deewiant: but he's trying to look up stuff for it 11:43:41 well, it's one way to clear one's mind :-P 11:44:42 Deewiant, oh the lyx file is more uptodate it seems 11:45:00 I would guess so 11:45:22 Deewiant, I don't see your comments on what the issues where in that log 11:45:26 if it hasn't changed since 2008-03-31 I guess it's still a work in progress 11:45:26 what line to search for 11:45:44 Deewiant, it has, the local one differs in page count at least 11:45:45 AnMaster: starting around 07:04:51 11:46:10 what timezone are the tunes.org logs in? 11:47:10 who cares 11:47:11 est 11:47:12 i guess 11:47:21 AnMaster: just search for deewiant 11:47:23 or funge 11:47:32 tusho, there are lots of other funge stuff there too 11:47:41 it seems I were implementing FPSP at that time 11:47:46 tusho: EST can refer to 5 different time zones... 11:47:55 Deewiant: yes. one of them 11:47:55 :) 11:47:56 but I guess you meant the american one? 11:48:00 no 11:48:06 Deewiant, can you give me some comment to search for please 11:48:10 I'm unable to find it 11:48:12 AnMaster: 07:04:51 11:48:13 i meant the EST 11:48:16 of cambodia 11:48:16 duh 11:48:40 Deewiant, there is nothing around then in the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.03.31, at that time I haven't even posted the link to that draft 11:48:46 AnMaster: on 29 11:48:57 AnMaster: 31 is just you saying that there exists a second draft 11:49:01 ah 11:49:17 29 is when you posted the first 11:52:58 Deewiant, it seems the local one is more uptodate 11:53:04 I will scp it 11:53:47 Deewiant, uploaded 11:54:43 -!- jix has joined. 11:55:25 AnMaster 11:55:28 if I have FNG1 11:55:31 and FNG2 11:55:36 and I want to use the "M" from each one in a bit of code 11:55:37 what do i do 11:56:06 tusho, you could use FING to remap one of the M to something else, that you don't need 11:56:09 tusho: you use the FING or FNGR or IMAP fingerprints 11:56:12 I plan to implement FING 11:56:16 or yes IMAP 11:56:22 Deewiant: what if I need A-Z for both? 11:56:24 tusho, or you could just load and unload them 11:56:31 just do "2GNF"(M) each time I want it? 11:56:33 tusho, then you need to switch between them a lot 11:56:36 tusho: IMAP 11:56:38 can't you do 11:56:48 "1GNF"(M"2GNF"(M)M) 11:56:58 fingerprints should be implemented as befunge modules 11:57:02 tusho, depends on what M does to the stack 11:57:11 oklopol, what do you mean? 11:57:12 oklopol: they can be, it's called mini-funge or fungelib 11:57:19 but I'm off to eat now -> 11:57:21 Deewiant, or dynafing 11:57:25 that is another name for it 11:57:47 there should be a FGPT fingerprint 11:57:55 that lets you make a fingerprint without any special formats even with befunge code 11:58:01 like 11:58:07 N ( name -- ) set the name of the new one 11:58:19 C ( 0"gnirts" name -- ) add command 11:58:21 err? 11:58:22 S ( -- ) save fingerprint 11:58:30 tusho, sounds like MACR 11:58:33 AnMaster: lets you make a fingerprint in befunge code 11:58:35 so that you can do 11:58:41 tusho, sounds like MACR kind of 11:58:44 "FGPT"(...)"LOOC"(...) 11:58:52 where you used the FGPT bit to define COOL 11:58:56 err 11:58:58 0"FGPT" 11:58:59 whatever 11:59:22 "TPGF"4( 11:59:27 anyway: dynafing/mini-funge/fungelib doesn't always work... 11:59:36 you couldn't implement FILE using that 11:59:38 or TRDS 12:00:28 well of course 12:00:38 AnMaster: but the thing is, all of those don't let you run them from in befunge code 12:00:46 this would just be a regular fingerprint that lets you make a new fingerprint 12:00:56 indeed 12:01:12 tusho, anyway this sounds almost like MACR 12:01:28 you may want to take a look at the new MACR in RC/Funge 12:01:37 not exactly the same 12:01:43 but probably useful for you anyway 12:02:06 how many fingerprints are there? 12:02:13 if it's more than 20, i'll make one more 12:02:17 oklopol: like 10-20 12:02:29 oklopol: they're implementation specific though 12:02:33 tusho, quite a few 12:02:35 oh you mean just spec it 12:02:41 but no implementation have them all 12:02:43 and let AnMaster and Deewiant and MikeRiley implement it? 12:02:44 :P 12:03:06 tusho: yes just spec it, or alternatively use a fingerprint-generating fingerprint to make it in befunge 12:03:33 oklopol: it's more fun just to spec it 12:03:36 and make it a little vague 12:03:38 tusho, for example only ais' addition to cfunge got IFFI 12:03:46 then you get to watch AnMaster, Deewiant and MikeRiley argue aebout it 12:03:51 *about 12:03:53 tusho: not necessarily, i love coding in befunge 12:03:57 it's orgastic 12:03:59 and maybe get it in to mycology, if Deewiant isn't lazy 12:04:00 tusho, well since oklopol made it we will argue with him 12:04:09 oklopol: solution - spec the fingerprint, then write programs using it 12:04:17 hehe 12:04:22 anyway I may or may not implement it 12:04:24 tusho: okay that's better 12:04:37 oklopol: make sure to use it to write something amazing 12:04:40 depending on how feral it is 12:04:42 so that they just have to implement it 12:04:43 and i can have all kinds of interesting side-effects then. 12:05:02 tusho, if he wrote a good and *fast* ray tracer in Befunge.... 12:05:10 that would be about the only thing ;P 12:05:23 for instance, i doubt s/.../.../ for the code would be possible if you wrote it in befunge 12:05:32 oklopol, eh? 12:05:41 replace any 3 chars with 3 dots? 12:05:51 replace something in code with something else 12:05:58 for all instances of something 12:06:00 oklopol, see REXP for regex, but I don't think it does replacement yet 12:06:05 AnMaster: no, in the program 12:06:09 he wants to be able to run a regexp on the program 12:06:10 from inside the program 12:06:14 oh you mean search and replace on funge space 12:06:21 yes, that i meant 12:06:29 could be done in dynafing 12:06:35 but would be quite complex I think 12:06:36 as something that would be easy to spec, but hard to write as a befunge module. 12:07:02 AnMaster: no, no, he wants you to implement it see ;) 12:07:03 oklopol, it *could* be done in dynafing/mini-funge 12:07:08 could be 12:07:09 but hard 12:07:18 tusho, cfunge doesn't do dynafing or such yet 12:07:24 if it ever will 12:07:34 AnMaster: probably possible, although i don't know how you'd do it 12:07:40 can you get me started? 12:07:45 i meann 12:08:12 oklopol, well.... dynafing is appendix C in http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/funge108.pdf 12:08:13 actually i think i know 12:08:21 select funge-98 one I guess 12:08:25 oklopol: don't use dynafing 12:08:28 it's just AnMaster's toy invention 12:08:33 RC-Funge has something similar that is actually implemented 12:08:34 tusho, it isn't 12:08:38 it is from !Befunge 12:08:39 tusho, ^ 12:08:47 AnMaster: fine, well, !Befunge is kind of useless 12:08:59 tusho, it is more powerful than mini-funge 12:08:59 1. broken 2. you basically can't run it on modern systems 12:09:07 AnMaster: and more powerful == less fun to do stuff in 12:09:31 *shrug* 12:09:37 of course it would be trivial if it, for instance, kinda temporarily pastes the whole fingerprint source where the instruction was, and you'd have G and P for accessing the fingerprint code, and g and p for the original code 12:09:44 and X for exiting the fingerprint 12:09:48 mini-funge is almost a subset of dynafing anyway 12:09:56 *pasted 12:10:09 the different is G/P and g/p have interchanged meanings 12:10:24 Feature Dynafing 1.3 RC/Funge’s mini-funge 12:10:24 Instruction to get and set in G and P g and p 12:10:24 haunted Funge-Space. 12:10:24 Instruction to get and set in g and p G and P 12:10:34 i'm actually not sure how it'd work to call shit in the fingerprint itself. 12:10:35 ghost Funge-Space. 12:10:49 but anyway it's either trivial or impossible, i think. 12:11:05 oklopol, write the specs first 12:11:08 but anyway, there will always be stuff you can't write as a befunge module 12:11:12 then I'll see what I think of it 12:11:15 AnMaster: i'm not going to make s/// 12:11:23 oklopol, indeed there will be stuff 12:11:28 TRDS, FILE, DIRF 12:11:30 "there will always be stuff you can't write as a befunge module" is my point 12:11:30 to name a few 12:11:39 trds? 12:11:41 dirf? 12:11:54 oklopol, TRDS: time travel in funge space for IPs 12:12:02 ah, that one 12:12:03 DIRF: mkdir/chdir/rmdir 12:12:06 okay 12:12:08 shop -> 12:12:10 FILE: File streams 12:12:33 also: dirf != DIRF 12:13:08 maybe I should make two fingerprints that only differ in case 12:13:19 would be fun to see what Deewiant would say ;P 12:13:36 "ARGH CAN'T MAKE THE SOURCE CODE FILES AS WINDOWS IS CASE INSENSITIVE!" 12:13:41 or something like that hehe 12:15:30 or maybe it'll be so full of posix-only features that I can't implement it anyway ;-P 12:15:37 Deewiant, hehehe 12:16:06 he'd just call it dirf_lower 12:16:07 Deewiant, could ccbi handle weirdly named fingerprints? 12:16:13 say, non-printable ones 12:16:32 Deewiant: probably 12:16:35 he'd just not name the file that 12:16:46 well not sure 12:17:08 cfunge's fingerprint.h generation scripts would need some changes in order to support it 12:17:58 CCBI requires no changes for such 12:18:16 Deewiant, could CCBI handle a fingerprint 0? 12:18:19 yes 12:18:28 interesting 12:18:33 cfunge couldn't currently 12:18:36 I debated about making a fingerprint 0 just for Mycology 12:18:37 that could be changed however 12:18:40 but decided not to 12:18:49 Deewiant, well cfunge will never try to load 0 12:18:57 it just use it as a end of list marker 12:18:59 yes, and hence cfunge doesn't conform to the spec. 12:19:05 same with RC/Funge-98. 12:19:06 Deewiant, it does 12:19:08 and possibly others. 12:19:15 Deewiant, it just don't implement 0 12:19:16 :P 12:19:26 >_< 12:19:27 Deewiant, loading AAAA will reflect as well as loading 0 12:19:45 so it totally conforms to the specs 12:20:24 Deewiant, I can't see how you end up with "doesn't conform" here 12:20:25 maybe I should make 0 a combination of useful stuff from various fingerprints 12:20:45 just so that you can start a befunge program with ( and have A-Z map to handy things 12:20:54 Deewiant, then it would be a 3 line change to use sizeof and some stuff to get the size of the array instead 12:21:09 so why don't you change it :-) 12:21:14 + a few lines of change to generation of fingerprint.h script 12:21:28 Deewiant, because it works, and because I don't need it yet 12:21:42 as I said, I could change it easily enough if I needed to 12:22:14 hmm, filenames can't contain a null byte can they 12:22:31 indeed that would be another change, in that case to the generation scripts 12:22:39 Deewiant, you could call the file null.d? 12:22:41 ;P 12:22:54 that wasn't my point 12:23:04 I was thinking of mini-funge 12:23:09 Deewiant, even / is valid in filenames I think 12:23:18 I don't think 12:23:29 I think NUL and / are the only two disallowed in *nix 12:23:35 ah yes 12:23:36 in windows, some others as wel 12:23:37 maybe / too 12:23:37 +l 12:23:45 Deewiant, well "who cares about windows" *ducks* 12:23:55 anyhoo 12:24:12 this means that mini-funge can't load fingerprints that contain NUL 12:24:19 or start with / 12:24:25 Deewiant, well the Funge-108 variant of mini-funge could 12:24:27 or end with /, I guess 12:24:39 Deewiant, file name doesn't matter there 12:24:55 Syntax Description Example 12:24:56 ==U: URI ==U:http://example.com/test 12:24:56 ==F: Legacy fingerprint string =F:TEST 12:25:01 in the first few lines 12:25:07 to define fingerprint names 12:25:42 Deewiant, see how useful that is? :) 12:25:52 AnMaster: for legacy names 12:25:59 tusho, yes? 12:26:03 yeah, if we ever make more than 2^32 fingerprints 12:26:15 Deewiant, no I mean that way to declare the names 12:26:15 AnMaster: funge-fingerprint-legacy://TRDS 12:26:17 or whatever 12:26:20 just use an unregistered URI secheme 12:26:23 technically they're not valid URIs 12:26:24 Deewiant, allows all those chars you mentioned 12:26:28 but in practice it'd be a lot easier 12:26:31 AnMaster: yeah, exactly, useful if we ever run out of fingerprint names 12:26:32 (than supporting both) 12:26:32 tusho, interesting 12:26:59 tusho, it is rather easy anyway: "if loading it as uri fails, fall back to old loading scheme" 12:27:12 Deewiant, or to define 0 12:27:14 as you want 12:27:18 Deewiant, and to avoid name collisions 12:27:22 AnMaster: yes, but for defining it 12:28:11 AnMaster: 0 can be defined anyway, just not doable in minifunge :-) 12:28:28 Deewiant: here's how you should define 0 for mycology 12:28:33 Deewiant, now it could be done in mini-funge 12:28:37 A-Z are all different parts of the test 12:28:44 and when you wanna test 0 in mycology 12:28:45 you do 12:28:51 tusho, you still don't have to implement 0 12:28:53 10(ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ) 12:29:03 10? 12:29:09 AnMaster: 10 = 1"\0" 12:29:14 err 12:29:15 er 12:29:15 01 12:29:20 indeed 12:29:27 tusho, I was confused there :P 12:29:47 you don't even need 01, just 0 12:29:48 actually do you test that Deewiant, loading 0( 12:29:51 to see that it works 12:30:04 in other words: reflect 12:30:16 AnMaster: I think that's what I use to test ( and ) 12:30:17 Deewiant, hm true 12:30:21 ah ok 12:30:38 Deewiant, well those tests would need to be rewritten if someone implements 0 12:30:48 AnMaster: you know what you must now do ;) 12:30:53 find a bug in mycology! go implement 0 12:30:59 AnMaster: yes, because there is no resereved unimplemented fingerprint 12:31:01 haha very funny 12:31:16 Deewiant, wait you could make one, define it as *never implemented* 12:31:19 XD 12:31:23 AnMaster: make it print out "AnMaster 0wned Mycology!!! greetz to mikeriley" 12:31:26 and exit the program 12:31:36 tusho, very fun :P 12:31:47 AnMaster: itym "very funny" 12:31:57 itym? 12:32:07 i think you mean 12:32:13 ah yes 12:32:24 in a sarcastic way 12:32:43 Mostly used in the construction "ITYM 'foo' HTH HAND". 12:33:00 HTH? 12:33:06 Happy to help, have a nice day. 12:33:18 I see... 12:33:33 fizzie: not to me 12:33:37 I use it sincerely 12:33:40 and most people I know do 12:34:02 i was pointing out that anmaster probably meant "very funny" 12:34:07 sarcastically 12:35:48 hm maybe define UDEF as "this fingerprint is never implemented" 12:36:18 then require implementations to support UDEF for mycology to be able to finish testing 12:36:25 "N/A" - "this fingerprint is not available" 12:36:42 another good one 12:36:44 beh: 12:36:46 {Kim Cameron, Microsoft’s chief architect of identity, is an enthusiastic advocate of information cards, which are not only vastly more secure than a password-based security system, but are also customizable, permitting users to limit what information is released to particular sites. “I don’t like Single Sign-On,” Mr. Cameron said. “I don’t believe in Single Sign-On.” } 12:36:48 supporting it means to not support it, so it's not exactly a requirement :-P 12:36:54 (from a stupid new york times article about openid via reddit) 12:36:56 idiot idiot idiot 12:37:03 you can limit what sites can get info from your openid too! 12:37:52 Deewiant, heheh 12:39:28 hm writing a funge interpreter in a purely functional language would be hard I think 12:39:37 not really 12:39:50 Deewiant, fingerprints need to modify global state 12:39:50 no 12:39:53 depends on the language itself, of course :-P 12:39:58 and you don't have one 12:40:02 Deewiant, think erlang 12:40:20 erlang isn't purely functional, is it? 12:40:26 I guess haskell too, but I don't know haskell at all, I do know some erlang 12:40:36 Deewiant, almost purely functional I think 12:40:40 I'm learning erlang 12:40:57 for example you can only "bind" a variable once 12:41:07 which makes it hard to do a global state 12:41:14 in any case, you can just pass around whatever it is you want to "modify" 12:41:15 as you can't modify it 12:41:21 hm true 12:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | !1 2%%3 4... 12:41:32 in haskell, this is made somewhat easier by things like the State monad 12:41:52 in erlang, I'd imagine it's easier for some other reason because it's not pure ;-) 12:45:10 Deewiant, I don't "get" monads 12:45:39 it's easier to "get" individual monads, like Maybe and State 12:45:50 and then later "get" what they have in common 12:45:54 IMO anywaj 12:45:56 s/j/y/ 12:46:09 well I'm learning erlang currently 12:52:54 AnMaster nobody gets monads 12:52:56 apart from like 5 people 12:52:57 :) 12:53:02 (i am one of them) 12:53:17 :-P 12:55:11 monads mean that you like have IO but it's not like side-effect! 12:55:33 oklopol: not really 12:55:33 :P 12:55:48 what was that sarcasm-tag again? 12:55:54 oklopol: you missed mine, I see 12:56:01 anyway I am an expert on NOMADS 12:56:08 if anyone has any questions about NOMADS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can answer them 12:56:11 in audial form 12:56:24 tusho: i did miss it, where is it? 12:56:33 oklopol: after 'not really' 12:56:44 ...:P? 12:56:58 or have i been nnscripted..? 12:57:12 oklopol: it was ~ 12:57:15 right. 12:57:15 hahah 12:57:28 tusho, so what are NOMADS? 12:57:55 AnMaster: they are NOMADS 12:57:58 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:57:58 they have the following operations 12:58:08 NOMAAAAAAAAAADS 12:58:13 RTEURN :: M A -> A 12:58:19 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 12:58:23 BIDN :: A -> (M A -> B) -> B 12:58:26 tusho, are they in any way related to monads? 12:58:29 FIAL :: M STRING -> A 12:58:32 they are NOMAAAAAAAAAAADS 12:58:37 *clap clap clap* 12:58:44 return, bind, fail? 12:58:48 but typoed? 12:58:55 AnMaster: no those are for monads 12:59:03 oklopol, oh? I don't get monads 12:59:08 I don't even know haskell 12:59:44 AnMaster: they are NOMADSSSSSSS 12:59:48 which are not 12:59:49 MONADSSSSSSSSS 13:00:06 basically a monad is kind of a container with a few operations for sequencing computation, and optionally additional operations for tinkering with its state. 13:00:40 oklopol, I see, so how do you manage to do write/read/seek on a file stream in haskell? 13:00:58 AnMaster: IO is not necessarily the best way to get into monads as a concept 13:01:11 right 13:01:15 but, err 13:01:17 AnMaster: i think you'd have to grasp functional programming more to get it 13:01:23 it's not easy to explain to a c programmer. 13:01:29 the state there would be the world's state 13:01:37 tusho, I do know some erlang now, and also some elisp 13:01:41 AnMaster: still. :) 13:01:45 you have a few operations for playing with the state, like reading files and writing to the printer 13:01:48 tusho, indeed I think in C 13:01:52 yes 13:01:56 oklopol: i think we should wait a bit 13:02:05 it'll be easier once he's learned erlang 13:02:12 if I'd write a erlang program I would write it in C in my head, then convert to erlang 13:02:13 and how to do state in that 13:02:23 AnMaster: that's probably not a good idea 13:02:24 well he definitely shouldn't do like me and not touch haskell at all and just read tutorials on monads :D 13:02:24 AnMaster: yeah ... don't write any erlang programs ;) 13:02:30 I expect the code would be quite unidiomatic 13:02:30 Deewiant, indeed not 13:02:36 Deewiant: 'quite'? 13:02:37 but I'm still learning erlang :P 13:02:41 AnMaster would be a human compiler 13:02:42 :P 13:02:47 one that makes everything slower to boot 13:02:55 tusho: well, I don't know Erlang so I don't know what idiomatic Erlang should look like :-) 13:03:14 tusho, I'm still learning it 13:03:23 yes 13:03:28 when I began with C I was thinking in bash, when I began with bash I was thinking in pascal 13:03:40 the first few weeks the code doesn't look good at all of course 13:03:47 so actually you've been thinking in the same language all the time, you just changed the syntax ;-) 13:04:04 Deewiant, you *learn* to "think" in the language 13:04:04 Deewiant is pretty much right 13:04:13 AnMaster: i'm afraid bash, C and pascal are basically the same 13:04:18 tusho, yep 13:04:20 single paradigm, not that many differences 13:04:22 apple script too 13:04:25 before pascal 13:04:26 :P 13:04:27 so you really only know one language :P 13:04:36 tusho, object pascal 13:04:40 -!- RedDak has joined. 13:04:41 heh, funny to think that AnMaster would use a propietary language on a propietary system 13:04:41 :) 13:04:42 I do know object orientation 13:04:50 tusho, I used Mac OS 7 ages ago 13:04:52 have you tried smalltalk 13:04:52 that is why 13:04:59 or Io 13:05:05 Deewiant: i can answer that 13:05:05 no 13:05:06 Deewiant, no, but I have read about it, it smalltalk looks very interesting 13:05:06 :P 13:05:11 tusho: :-) 13:05:15 but I can only do one thing at a time 13:05:35 tusho, anyway I also coded C#, so yes I can think in object orientation as well 13:05:46 C# and object pascal aren't real oo AnMaster :) 13:05:54 tusho, oh? 13:05:57 they break several core principles 13:05:59 they're mostly imperative with OO on the top 13:06:04 yeah true 13:06:09 but so is C++ then 13:06:10 smalltalk's object model obeys it because it invented it :P 13:06:12 yes 13:06:15 C++ is ... no way OOP 13:06:19 yes, C++ and Java included 13:06:23 objc then? 13:06:24 what about it? 13:06:30 haven't used it 13:06:32 obj-c is very close to real OO 13:06:36 because it's basically C with smalltalk on top 13:06:49 it has some funky @ and - syntax for declaring classes 13:06:55 but the actual message sends? 13:07:06 [obj someMsg:YES withX:[obj2 test:NO]] 13:07:08 tusho, anyway I also know befunge which is a different programming model yet 13:07:16 and I think in befunge when coding it 13:07:18 befunge is still imperative though 13:07:18 :P 13:07:19 I don't think in C 13:07:19 no, Befunge is also imperative :-P 13:07:21 it would not work 13:07:23 Deewiant, that is true 13:07:30 but it is not like C at all still :P 13:07:31 and you don't even write self-modifying code 13:07:39 Deewiant, I do 13:08:08 " :rebmun a retnE" >:#,_v 13:08:08 v_v#!`g00:+1 .:< >a,@ ^ 13:08:13 not much self modifying 13:08:18 just as variable storage 13:08:29 so... not at all self modifying :-P 13:08:42 Deewiant, true, but most time you don't need it 13:08:55 Deewiant, how would you write that code using self modification in some constructive way? 13:09:18 wait I can see one way, write the value to a cell then put a ' in front 13:09:27 for instance 13:10:11 but yeah, I was just saying that Befunge is really imperative, if your code is very self-modifying then it might be considered as somewhat of a a different mindset but probably not :-) 13:11:18 Deewiant, anyway erlang is a totally different mindset 13:11:40 and look at my def-c low level compiler, it is not classic C 13:11:44 quite, if you use it correctly ;-) 13:12:03 def-c, the def-bf compiler that is 13:12:15 Deewiant, it uses recursion a lot 13:12:29 not functional, but not classical C etierh 13:12:30 either* 13:12:43 recursion in itself doesn't mean it's not somehow normal C :-) 13:13:00 Deewiant, recursion isn't very common in C programs 13:13:16 yeah, because C programmers generally can't think recursively 13:13:23 I bet 99% of the functions in a normal C program aren't recursive 13:13:27 so they mash something into a really complicated loop when recursion would serve them better 13:13:42 Deewiant, but my Brainfuck parser and optimizer are both recursive 13:13:56 new level at every [ 13:14:00 and up at every ] 13:14:06 which is because it makes more sense to do so than to loop :-P 13:14:13 not because you're writing in a non-C style 13:14:18 indeed 13:14:25 if you wanted to loop, you'd have to manage your own stack 13:14:31 Deewiant, my BASE.c binary() is recursive 13:14:33 bbl food 13:14:35 so it'd be just like recursion anyway 13:21:05 back 13:24:39 optbot! 13:24:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 3PLN = $1 ;d. 13:24:43 optbot! 13:24:43 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | argh. 13:24:48 yes 14:10:30 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:11:49 hmm 14:12:03 think i've basically hit the most minimum design here 14:12:39 removing any more would add extra whitespace (enough to be ugly), or make the edit box too small, or remove the tiny bit of fonts I have 14:12:51 Satisfying. 14:18:59 YOU'RE THE MAN! 14:19:38 AnMaster: mail coming your way 14:20:58 Deewiant, blergh -- makes thunderbird think everything below is a signature 14:20:59 ;P 14:21:23 hmm, must have typoed then 14:21:26 it should be "-- " 14:21:30 for signatures, that is 14:21:34 or thunderbird is buggy :-P 14:21:42 Deewiant, yes there is a space there in your stuff 14:21:47 Just all kinds of stuff that came to mind based on the draft version 2. 14:21:47 -- You often say "IP index" when you mean "IP ID". I think it would be clearer to just use the latter all the way through. -- 14:21:48 LOL. whatismyip.org is down 14:22:00 yeap, I typoed in the first -- 14:22:00 meh 14:22:01 tusho, it isn't hard to get your ip.. 14:22:13 AnMaster: yes, but 'whatismyip.org[enter]' is instinctive 14:22:16 ah well, I can resend it if you want ;-P 14:22:30 meanwhile http://91.105.115.23/on/FooBarBaz:Sandbox behold the painful minimalism! 14:22:31 Deewiant, yes thanks 14:23:05 tusho, nice, but I prefer sans-serif on screen 14:23:16 AnMaster: The header and the footer are sans-serif. :P 14:23:23 Also the headings. 14:23:26 tusho, the main text I mean 14:23:40 AnMaster: yea, I was trying to differenciate between the auxillary debris and the actual text 14:23:51 and my reasoning was that the actual text is more formal than the clutter around it 14:24:02 (even though that clutter is 2 lines, whatever) 14:24:05 tusho, what about using
? 14:24:19
is unsemantic, I'd add a bottom border 14:24:20 but no 14:24:28 i generally prefer typography & whitespace to seperate sections 14:24:46 tusho, anyway I wouldn't read a wiki with that font for the main text 14:24:51 I would go elsewhere 14:25:12 my personal wiki of opinion will surely fail because of the money you deprive it by not clicking on its huge swaths of ads, I'm sure 14:25:24 do you refuse to read any website that's in a serif font? 14:25:27 if so, I lol'd 14:25:42 ads? 14:25:46 I use adblock 14:25:52 AnMaster: it has 85 ads 14:25:55 flashing all over the page 14:25:59 you are depriving me of tons of money! 14:26:00 tusho, and no I just think it is painful to read serif on screen 14:26:01 i need your readership! 14:26:10 baaaah 14:26:11 no ads there 14:26:15 thunderbird is buggy 14:26:22 Deewiant, it adds the space? 14:26:46 AnMaster: I am homeless and cannot afford food. You are depriving me money I need to stay alive by not clicking on the huge numbers of ads on my site, which you refuse to read because it's serif. 14:26:48 Have you no heart? :( 14:27:00 AnMaster: yes 14:27:04 tusho, there are no ads, I checked in another browser 14:27:12 AnMaster: I CAN'T AFFORD FOOD 14:27:13 Deewiant, well use a single - or whatever then :P 14:27:16 AnMaster: so I just used 3 dashes now 14:27:18 BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU 14:27:22 Deewiant, that works too 14:28:19 tusho, I would accept ads if they weren't animated, too many ads are animated, result: I block all ads 14:28:29 AnMaster: DO YOU WANT ME TO STARVE?!?!?!! 14:28:30 BASTARD 14:28:31 and your site got no ads 14:29:26 tusho, do you want people suffering from epilepsy to get a seizure when viewing your site? 14:29:41 sure I don't have epilepsy, but I can't stand animated ads 14:29:42 and 14:29:43 AnMaster: AS LONG AS I CAN AFFORD FOOD 14:29:48 WHICH I CAN'T RIGHT NOW 14:29:49 THERE ARE NO ADS ON YOUR FUCKING WEBSITE 14:29:55 I HAVE TO PICK UP SCRAPS FROM THE TRASH CANS 14:29:56 I CHECKED WITH ANOTHER BROWSER 14:30:02 THEY HAVE DISEASES 14:30:05 ALSO YOU LIVE AT HOME SINCE YOU ARE 12 14:30:12 poor girl 14:30:13 ;P 14:30:15 hahahaha you're like the easiest person to troll ever :D 14:30:25 tusho, I'd say the same about you 14:30:26 :P 14:30:45 4 minutes from naught to capitals and swearing 14:30:46 excellent 14:31:05 tusho, I just mimic you 14:31:26 ah yes but I successfully annoyed you 14:33:03 tusho, you did, becuase I was trying to read about function references in erlang 14:33:29 cmeme: can you go away; ircbrowse is dead 14:33:57 ircbrowse? 14:34:01 why is it dead? 14:34:06 AnMaster: ircbrowse.com 14:34:07 it's dead 14:34:21 tusho, or it is temp down simply 14:34:31 no 14:34:33 its been like that for months 14:34:36 many months 14:34:36 server problems *do* happen 14:34:38 tusho, hm I see 14:34:39 and before that cmeme kept crashing 14:34:43 and not logging 14:34:46 even when it was in here 14:35:07 well get it out then? 14:35:20 uh how 14:35:23 i'm not an op 14:35:38 ask lament when he is here? 14:35:49 who else got +o? 14:35:49 sure 14:35:55 and fizzie 14:35:56 I think 14:36:01 aardappel is the channel owner 14:36:05 but he hasn't come here since 2002 iir 14:36:05 c 14:36:08 haha 14:36:19 (aardappel = FALSE) 14:36:23 (and many others) 14:36:46 well someone could make a group registration asking for take over of esoteric 14:36:57 why 14:36:59 as a nice side effect you could get esoteric/ cloaks then :P 14:37:05 we're not a group 14:37:08 this channel name is incorrect 14:37:10 it should be ##esoteric 14:37:12 true 14:37:14 but it was made before that policy 14:37:21 * You have been kicked from ##esoteric by ChanServ (Invite only channel) 14:37:22 and there's no point changing it now 14:37:23 interesting 14:37:34 AnMaster: probably for the religious/magic kind of esoterica 14:37:42 tusho, err what? 14:37:46 tusho, also there was no one else there 14:37:51 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric 14:37:53 chanserv joined a second after me 14:38:14 the channel was *dead* 14:38:19 so what 14:38:22 we are not changing to ##esoteric 14:38:24 true 14:38:24 it's not happening 14:38:42 it's been like this since 2002 and freenode are too busy whining for money to do anything about the tos violation :p 14:41:35 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:45:43 Uh, yes, I think I have a reasonably wide set of privileges in chanserv for #esoteric. 14:50:39 fizzie: i won't believe it until you ban me 14:50:51 that's what every op must do in here, otherwise they are not an op. it's simple logic, really. 14:50:57 lament's the only one so far 14:52:19 Hmm, are freenode's services down? "ChanServ: No such nick/channel" 14:53:03 Just netsplitted... 14:53:16 How coincidental. 14:54:43 everyone leave #esoteric 14:54:47 I need to steal ops while services are away 14:54:47 :D 14:55:10 nuuuuuu 14:56:38 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie. 14:56:53 Did you really need the +b, too, or can I just deop myself now? 14:57:35 yes 14:57:54 i also need a kick 14:58:11 fizzie: it is very important 14:58:23 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +b tusho!n=tusho@91.105.115.23. 14:59:23 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -b tusho!n=tusho@91.105.115.23. 14:59:27 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie. 14:59:33 Can't really say I saw the point in that. 15:00:02 Strange girl. 15:00:14 girl? 15:00:33 Well, he looks like one. 15:02:08 I wonder if the ban+kick thing was some sort of crafty "I will frame them to be horrible tyrants and complain to freenode people" ploy. 15:02:37 optbot: What do you think? Didn't tusho write you? 15:02:37 fizzie: or well, one can't join graue's forum, but i meant with that which one to start using more 15:02:38 lol 15:03:25 -!- unrelatedguy has joined. 15:03:30 fizzie my brother is not a girl 15:04:03 I think the word "brother" already implies that. 15:04:16 actually my other brother is a girl 15:04:29 :-SD 15:04:46 My wife's sister is a boy, actually, so I guess that sort of stuff happens. 15:04:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:05:56 anyway fizzie why did you ban my brother 15:06:27 Because it seemed to be his life-long ambition. 15:06:38 what 15:06:39 ? 15:07:05 Well, you probably already read the logs? 15:07:20 yes he was joking... 15:07:31 it's obvious 15:07:48 That can't be true. There were no smileys anywhere. It's not a joke if there's no ":)". 15:08:06 sarcasm must be really fun for you 15:08:07 i mean, ":)" 15:08:41 now can you please unban my brother i don't think that was very nice 15:08:53 I already did, I think. 15:09:08 ok i'll tell him 15:09:28 -!- tusho has joined. 15:09:33 ah that's better 15:09:36 hi tusho 15:09:38 hi 15:09:47 well, bye i guess 15:09:49 -!- unrelatedguy has quit ("leaving"). 15:10:02 I fail to see how this was very important 15:10:25 Incidentally, how can your brother be "unrelated" to you? Or maybe the nickname isn't related to this case. 15:11:01 that's the nick he uses on irc... 15:11:34 on a completely different note, I don't have a brother 15:11:58 Not even a female one? Gasp! Shock, horror. 15:12:10 i know it's shocking 15:12:23 fizzie: hey i think you missed the ":)" 15:12:32 Oh, sorry. 15:12:37 ":)" 15:12:59 :D 15:13:25 I guess that's one way to get more chatter on the channel. 15:14:08 another is optbot 15:14:08 tusho: 72 bottles of beer on the wall, 72 bottles of beer. 15:14:15 optbot: take one down and pass it around 15:14:16 tusho: because youre at work? 15:14:20 optbot: yes. can't drink at work. 15:14:20 tusho: - becomes 1- 15:25:23 -!- Corun has joined. 15:51:32 -!- Ilari has quit (""Won't be back for a while...""). 16:05:52 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:06:23 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:54:51 new version of the draft of funge-108 16:54:56 just some typo fixes 16:54:59 Deewiant, ^ 16:55:22 same url as before 16:55:47 if it's just some typo fixes it's not important enough to ping me ;-) 17:14:47 -!- Hiato has joined. 17:57:39 -!- MikeRiley has joined. 18:00:45 MikeRiley: another question btw, the matrix-creating instructions in 3DSP (PRSTY) don't make sense to me: P for instance is (Vdm Vsm -- ) - where's the result stored 18:02:13 stored on the stack, will have to fix the documentation one for that 18:02:32 I guess it should be (Vsm -- Vdm) or something then? 18:02:59 and how are vectors/matrices stored, x y z / x1 y1 z1 x2 y2 z2 x3 y3 z3 or what? 18:03:52 vectors: x y z 18:04:03 matrices x1 y1 z1 x2 y2 z2 x3 y3 z3 18:04:06 (and document it!) 18:04:19 never claimed to be good at documenation!!! eheheeheheheheheeh 18:04:28 really need peer review for that stuff!!!! eheheheheheheeh 18:04:44 let me look at P,,,just a sec 18:05:12 for subtraction, one never knows if it's "a - b" or "b - a"... the latter is standard in Funge but I'd document it anyway 18:05:36 (applies to 3DSP's B, CPLI's S, probably FPSP/FPDP and others also) 18:05:43 actually,,,,hold on....need to take a look at the source....the matrices themselves may be in funge-space 18:06:07 aha, so Vdm is a pointer to funge-space 18:06:19 that was not at all obvious ;-) 18:06:50 and then, they're stored x1 y1 z1 x2 y2 z2 x3 y3 z3 within funge-space, taking up 9 cells thus? 18:07:05 just looked at source,,,,matrices are in funge-space,,,,so where matrices are arguments they are vectors to funge-space 18:07:16 let me check the format,,,,hold on 18:07:44 stored in funge-space in 2 dimensions... 18:07:53 3 cells by 3 cells 18:09:04 i guess that fingerprint can use some better documentation!!!! eheheheheheheheeheh 18:09:33 yeah, I'd say so :-P 18:09:56 and I guess they're like: 18:09:58 x1 x2 x3 18:10:00 y1 y2 y3 18:10:06 or is it the other way around 18:10:17 x1y1 x2y1 x3y1 18:10:25 x1y2 x2y2 x3y2 18:10:33 x1y3 x2y3 x3y3 18:10:42 vector points to the x1y1 cell 18:10:43 eh what? 18:10:46 aye 18:10:54 but 18:11:00 is x3y1 an x- or z-coordinate 18:11:29 x3y1 would be a z coordinate 18:11:35 okay 18:11:36 so 18:11:38 x1 y1 z1 18:11:41 x2 y2 z2 18:11:43 x3 y3 z3 18:11:45 yes 18:11:48 and the vector points to x1 18:11:52 correct 18:11:53 okay, document this ;-) 18:11:59 will do!!!! 18:12:04 oh, and V 18:12:09 what exactly should it do 18:12:22 let me look 18:12:51 that functions maps a 3d point to a 2d point, if you hold on, can get you the formula for it?? 18:13:15 there are many ways of doing it 18:13:18 idea of that fingerprint is to be able to work with objects in 3 dimensional space, but be able to draw them on the screen in 2 dimenstions... 18:13:24 yes there are ,,,, let me get my formula... 18:13:31 so document which way it is ;-) 18:13:35 which came out of a raytracing book, if i remember.... 18:13:53 case EX_3DSP+14:Float.i=Pop(cip); b.z=Float.f; /* V */ 18:13:53 Float.i=Pop(cip); b.y=Float.f; 18:13:53 Float.i=Pop(cip); b.x=Float.f; 18:13:53 if (b.z==0) Float.f=b.x; else Float.f=b.x/b.z; 18:13:53 Push(Float.i,cip); 18:13:54 if (b.z==0) Float.f=b.y; else Float.f=b.y/b.z; 18:13:56 Push(Float.i,cip); 18:13:58 break; 18:14:50 so it's just (x,y,z) -> (x/z, y/z) 18:17:06 hmm, what's with the zero checks 18:17:17 to prevent division by zero errors... 18:17:28 floating point division by zero is well-defined :-P 18:17:34 z=0 is the same plane as the screen 18:17:37 1/0 -> infinity 18:17:41 but yeah, I see 18:17:52 you don't want infinity 18:17:57 positive z is away from viewer,,,negative z is towards viewer 18:18:13 no,,,since z=0 is the reference poitn for everything else 18:18:48 so with z=0, no perspective calculation needs to be done, just use the x and y as is 18:31:27 important point,,,Rc/Funge-98 source code for 3DSP is a bad example, it is ALL WRONG!!!! looks like it is working with interger values instead of floating point.....i have to rewrite that module.... 18:31:34 :-D 18:31:39 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 18:32:14 all of the numbers used in 3DSP need to be floating point,,,same as in FPSP... 18:32:31 MikeRiley: hmm BTW, translation matrices need to be 4x4 don't they?? 18:32:49 yes actually.... 18:32:57 so wth :-P 18:33:07 or is that meant to be handled in X 18:33:08 Rc/Funge-98 is using 4x4 matrices.... 18:33:16 they're all 4x4?? 18:33:19 looking 18:33:37 yes they are all 4x4 18:33:42 okay 18:34:13 so revise what i said earlier about matrices in funge-space,,,they are stored 4x4... 18:35:48 the functions i was using for matric storage: 18:35:59 struct MATRIX Get_Matrix(int x,int y,int z) 18:35:59 { 18:35:59 int fx,fy; 18:35:59 int i; 18:35:59 struct MATRIX Result; 18:36:00 union FLOAT { 18:36:02 float f; 18:36:04 long int i; 18:36:06 } f; 18:36:08 i=0; 18:36:10 for (fy=0;fy<4;fy++) 18:36:12 for (fx=0;fx<4;fx++) { 18:36:14 f.i=Get_Funge(x+(i++),y,z); 18:36:16 Result.c[fx][fy]=f.f; 18:36:18 } 18:36:20 return Result; 18:36:22 } 18:36:24 void Put_Matrix(struct MATRIX *a,int x,int y,int z) 18:36:26 { 18:36:28 int fx,fy; 18:36:30 int i; 18:36:32 union FLOAT { 18:36:34 float f; 18:36:36 long int i; 18:36:38 } f; 18:36:40 i=0; 18:36:42 for (fy=0;fy<4;fy++) 18:36:44 for (fx=0;fx<4;fx++) { 18:36:46 f.f=a->c[fx][fy]; 18:36:48 Put_Funge(x+(i++),y,z,f.i); 18:36:50 } 18:36:52 } 18:36:54 which also look wrong actually!!!! eheheheheheheeheheheh 18:37:34 that whole module looks like it needs to be scrapped and rewritten!!!! eheheheheheheeheh 18:38:13 shoult be Get_Funge(x+fx,y+fy,z) and Put_Funge(x+fx,y+fy,z,f.i) 18:38:45 MikeRiley: X is just matrix*vector, right? 18:38:58 correct 18:39:59 starting to wonder how my test program for that fingerprint ever worked!!! 18:40:32 but running it,,,,does come up with the right values....hmmmmmmmm 18:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The 7th level of hell is reserved for those violent against people and property.. 18:41:55 think i will write a new test program for that module that is more rigourous,,, 18:47:02 MikeRiley: what order should Y multiply in 18:47:11 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:47:33 (vdm v1m v2m) = v1m * v2m 18:47:46 thanks, and document that ;-) 18:48:16 actually i see how my code works now....it is correct....do need to fix Get_Matrix and Put_Matrix tho....rest is correct,,,,probably will not work right on a 64-bit machine tho... 18:48:26 yep...need to document it!! :) 18:49:11 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 18:49:49 single is 32-bits, so fits in the 32-bit cells of Rc/Funge-98....using the integer protion of a union to get/put cells, but using the float portion of the union for the calculations... 18:50:19 not as much rewriting as i thought,,,but will need to modify the code to be 64-bit safe... 18:52:37 brb 18:58:34 -!- RodgerTheGreat_ has quit. 19:07:11 MikeRiley: just read your e-mails 19:07:22 about MODU, good point, I forgot it was cat's-eye's, my bad 19:08:01 about DATE, yes, some people don't use the gregorian, such as some asian countries 19:08:17 about EMEM, so "addr" is an offset into the malloced array if I got you correctly? 19:08:56 for IMAP, great, but why not go all the way and allow all values that a cell can hold 19:11:10 bacj 19:11:12 back that is 19:11:33 ok, DATE will be more specific 19:11:48 yes addr in EMEM referes to the address in the malloc'ed block,,, 19:12:24 i suppose IMAP could do that, just complicates the code...right now i just use a 256 element array so quick conversion,,,could go to something else... 19:13:34 start by documenting what IMAP is supposed to do :-) 19:13:36 in EMEM addr=0 is the first byte of alloc'ed memory,,,the actual memory pointer is not exposed to the funge program itself 19:13:51 i have changed IMAP in the documentaion, just not posted it yet 19:13:52 except via hnd 19:14:12 even hnd is not necesarily the actual pointer returned my malloc,,, 19:14:17 and I'm not sure I'm going to implement EMEM, it seems totally pointless to me :-P 19:14:25 for the most part it is.... 19:14:32 for what part isn't it 19:14:35 i doubt i will ever use that one myself... 19:14:57 if I were you I'd just remove it entirely, it has practically zero use 19:14:57 on a system where the pointer returned from malloc does not fit into the cell size, then some other mechanism must be used 19:15:11 since we already have two data storage locations 19:15:15 agree,,,,near zero use....but already written.... 19:15:18 funge-space, and stack stacks 19:15:22 er 19:15:25 stacks on the stack stack* 19:15:54 the only point for EMEM that I can see is if you're running on a /very/ low-memory system 19:15:57 not sure why i even defined EMEM actually,,,probably was bored that day and decided to do somethign strange... 19:16:04 but... you're not going to be running funge on such a system anyway 19:16:10 agreed 19:16:15 and even if you are, you can't do many useful things even with EMEM 19:17:02 MikeRiley: and as for "already written", I'm going to quote from another channel 19:17:05 2008-08-10 18:56:16 ( gwern) for every line of code you delete, god resurrects a kitten 19:17:14 ;-) 19:17:55 hmm, I wonder if the reverse also holds... that for every line of code you write, god kills a kitten 19:18:12 eheheheheheheheheheheheh 19:18:16 only if somebody asks you to delete it ;-) 19:19:50 every time you program in visual basic a kitten kills god 19:21:58 chances are EMEM was the result of being bored and running out of fingerprint ideas!!! eheheheeheh 19:22:33 meh, you don't have to churn out a fingerprint every day :-P 19:22:42 especially if it's just a pointless one >_< 19:23:04 i know....but when i get bored,,,got to do something...eheheheeheheheh 19:23:19 and since funge is my current focus these days,,,that is what gets worked on... 19:23:43 have you got a funge-108 mode yet, do that instead :-P 19:24:01 i have most of one...not too much more to do and then it should work,,, 19:24:15 i have all the simpler stuff,,,,like reflects on negatives for various instructions.... 19:24:22 so do that instead of creating useless fingerprints >_< 19:24:28 have a changed version of the new fingerprints.... 19:24:49 what is wrong with useless fingerprints???? half the fingerprints i have made are probably useless!! eheheehheeheheh 19:25:13 some are at least interesting, such as TRDS 19:25:27 but EMEM is useless /and/ boring :-P 19:25:32 that one i think was born out of insanity!!!! eheheheheheeheh 19:25:42 will not disagree about EMEM 19:25:54 I guess you pass mycotrds, or? 19:26:31 no,,,,it passes my own diagnostics now....but mycotrds exits normally before it should...i sent you an email about it,,,wondering what should have happened....never got a response... 19:26:44 so trds is on hold at the moment while i define some more useless fingerprints!!! eheheheheheeheh 19:27:16 whooo so im using this here dvorak keyboard and im getting faster and faster :o 19:27:36 MikeRiley: you can always look at CCBI's results to see what should happen 19:28:16 i have looked at CCBI's results,,,,but still not quite sure what the code was doing....did not feel like diving into it.... 19:28:18 MikeRiley: the problem with TRDS is that it's never obvious what exactly is going on and where, so I can't just tell you where the problem is from your output :-P 19:28:36 should just crank up the debugger and single step through that section... 19:28:46 so how can you be bored if you haven't resolved this? ;-P 19:28:55 more interesting than EMEM at least... 19:29:07 true,,,would be more interesting than EMEM.... 19:29:31 shall i just mark EMEM as deprecated and mention that nobody should implement it??? eheheeheheheheheheheheheheh 19:29:51 how about, remove it and say it was a stupid idea ;-P 19:30:11 kinda like PNTR,,,,very surprised that you have a test for that since PNTR was renamed to INDV very very early... 19:30:29 if you renamed it very very early, why'd you keep it in the readme :-P 19:30:40 ummmmmmmmmm oversight?????? 19:30:44 >___< 19:30:54 remember,,,,not terribly good with documentation!!! eheheheheeheheheh 19:30:55 so how about removing that, too 19:31:33 i agree that the PNTR should not exist,,,in the original registry it actually appeared as INDV,,,no sense in having 2 names for the same module... 19:31:53 i will remove it from all my documentation if you remove teh tests for it in mycology.... 19:32:01 sure 19:32:11 AnMaster: if you implement PNTR, don't. 19:32:28 Deewiant, what? 19:32:29 I do 19:32:34 INDV/PNTR 19:32:37 they are the same iirc 19:32:37 PNTR and INDV are the same 19:32:37 see above 19:32:41 PNTR is ancient 19:32:48 and an accident that it still exists 19:32:53 well it is a valid alias now 19:32:53 PNTR was renamed to INDV long long ago....at chris's request... 19:33:00 not much you can do about it 19:33:08 AnMaster: just remove it. 19:33:31 nothing should have ever implemented PNTR...only INDV.... 19:33:32 Deewiant, do someone want to use PNTR for something else? 19:33:42 AnMaster: someone might. 19:33:43 anyway I just map it as an alias to INDV 19:33:52 yeah, so remove it. 19:34:04 that is how it is in my code now....a pointer to INDV,,,,and that did not happen until mycology wanted to test PNTR.... 19:34:08 why? it might break code compatiblity 19:34:20 there should not be any code that uses PNTR.... 19:34:37 what if there is? 19:34:50 then the code needs to change PNTR to INDV.... 19:35:18 MikeRiley, anyway why is EMEM a stupid ide? 19:35:19 idea? 19:35:41 did not say it was a stupid idea....only that it does not have much use... 19:35:52 what about for SMEM? 19:35:53 AnMaster: it is 19:35:58 SMEM has a use.... 19:36:06 SMEM I don't know about, but EMEM is utterly pointless 19:36:11 MikeRiley, don't you need to allocate with EMEM first to use it with SMEM? 19:36:29 Deewiant, not really, for interaction with native code it seems very useful 19:36:31 no you do not...are you familiar with what SysV shared memory is??? 19:36:44 AnMaster: ... how would you use EMEM to interact with native code 19:36:47 if I ever implement the C<->Befunge FFI I planned EMEM seems like a good idea 19:37:00 AnMaster: you do realize that EMEM would be incompatible with such an FFI 19:37:01 Deewiant, you need to pass pointers to native code sometimes 19:37:08 AnMaster: and where do you get the pointer from 19:37:08 Deewiant, how would it? 19:37:12 from EMEM? 19:37:18 AnMaster: you can't get the pointer from EMEM. 19:37:28 yes and no on that.... 19:37:33 you only get an abstract handle. 19:37:36 depends how you implement EMEM,,,, 19:37:39 well maybe the FFI would have an "extract pointer from EMEM using handle" 19:37:40 if you use it as a pointer your code is INCORRECT. 19:37:53 even as an abstract pointer,,,,for my implementation,,,the real pointer is obtainable from the IP data block 19:38:06 MikeRiley, IP data block? 19:38:20 AnMaster: why do that when you can just call malloc directly from the FFI. 19:38:25 Deewiant, true 19:38:26 the data structure that holds all the info for an IP,,,,position, delta, etc... 19:38:37 anyway there is a reason: 19:38:42 More fingerprints = more features 19:38:53 more features = more potential users 19:39:17 valid point there 19:39:20 AnMaster: so you think it's a good idea to have a huge fingerprint tree, only one of which does something useful, the others are only supporting instructions for that one? :-P 19:39:30 Deewiant, probably not 19:39:45 "the vibrant funge community" is still far from a reality 19:39:46 ;P 19:39:47 EMEM would be like that, useless in itself 19:40:28 i do not believe that you should have a bunch of fingerprints only to support some other fingerprint.... 19:40:42 each fingerprint should have its own uses... 19:40:44 I have been thinking of writing a Funge-93 interpreter in erlang 19:40:49 I agree, but EMEM has no uses 19:40:51 mainly as a nice project to learn erlang 19:40:55 as it is,,,,none of my fingerprints require some other fingerprint to be loaded... 19:41:06 SCKE is like that, though 19:41:12 which is why I don't like it very much 19:41:24 not really,,,it just added features to SOCK,,, 19:41:36 MikeRiley, idea for a good fingerprint however: 19:41:36 just like JSTR changed features of STRN 19:41:38 SCK6 19:41:45 like SOCK but for IPv6 19:42:04 JSTR can be used without STRN, SCKE can't be used without SOCK 19:42:07 or maybe it should become part of SOCK, but I don't like changing existing fingerprints 19:42:14 i agree SCK6 would be a good addition 19:42:49 -!- dogface has joined. 19:42:52 i agree about changing fingerprints,,,especially ones that have been around a long time.... 19:42:59 so SCKE makes sense for what it added... 19:43:02 I beg to differ. 19:43:22 ok forget the dvorak keyboard 19:43:23 :P 19:43:32 changing a fingerprint that somebody might be using,,,can break code...better to make a new one.... 19:43:33 ========================-=----------------------- 19:43:38 whoops 19:43:44 MikeRiley, of course with Funge-108 that would be easy, if you had an uri (gopher://example.org/0/funge/my-hand/my-finger/1.0) then you could make a 2.0 and so on 19:43:47 and even better 19:44:06 the author could say that gopher://example.org/0/funge/my-hand/my-finger should map to the last one that is implemented 19:44:08 maybe 19:44:23 well...even tho i do not like the uri for the fingerprint name,,,,still nothing but a string compare as far as i am concerned,,,and so yes....could be versioned that way.... 19:44:55 MikeRiley, string compare with some twists, uris are case sensitive, but the domain name isn't 19:45:06 there are more details in the rfc 19:45:15 you can use case insensitive string cmpare....strcasecmp..... 19:45:24 well the rest of it is case sensitive 19:45:31 I will need to read up on the details myself 19:45:36 ok,,,,partly then..... 19:47:07 what license is RC/Funge under? 19:47:42 my own....modify it, use it, copy, distribute,,,no commercial use without my permission,,,,my copyright notices must remain inteact.... 19:48:05 very close to bsd license,,,,but i disallow commercial use... 19:48:13 MikeRiley, you are interested in section 6 of http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt only 19:48:17 a much smaller chunk 19:48:22 looking 19:49:07 MikeRiley, around 6 pages 19:49:16 much much less than the around 72 pages in total 19:49:42 yes,,,,that looks reasonable... 19:50:03 "For this reason, 19:50:03 determination of equivalence or difference of URIs is based on string 19:50:03 comparison, perhaps augmented by reference to additional rules 19:50:03 provided by URI scheme definitions" 19:50:20 those additional rules may be a tiny problem 19:50:47 that is partly why i disagree on uris,,,,solves the problem in too complicated a way... 19:51:07 MikeRiley, it certainly avoids collision issue though 19:51:14 the 4 character one was lousy,,,but i think the uri approach is doing too much... 19:51:21 MikeRiley, you see I had some collision issues with tusho here 19:51:23 i agree on the goal...to avoid collisions.... 19:51:30 regarding handprint 19:51:31 just think there are better ways to go about it 19:51:32 CFUN 19:51:43 MikeRiley is wrong 19:51:44 and same could easily happen for fingerprint 19:51:50 URIs are specifically designed to be universal identifiers 19:51:56 and should be used for this purpose whenever possible 19:52:00 i understand that...that was the problem with the original method... 19:52:18 and URIs are the right way to solve it 19:52:25 because they are specifically designed for it 19:52:28 maybe so tusho....but i am a believer in the keep it simple philosophy.... 19:52:32 and interoperability between technologies is a good thing 19:52:35 and URIs are simple 19:52:39 you don't implement them yourself 19:52:40 you use a library 19:52:40 and uris do not provide a simple solution to the problem 19:52:48 but you appear to ignore me whenever I say "use a library" 19:52:59 very against the use of code tht is not mine 19:53:04 so do not use most libraries 19:53:11 unless they are very standardized... 19:53:16 riiiight 19:53:19 your problem then 19:53:20 and even then,,,,i tend not to use them... 19:53:28 no disagreement there... 19:53:29 don't use others code = you suffer whenever something non-trivial comes up 19:53:40 not necesarily... 19:53:46 "implementing it -from scratch- is complicated" does not mean something is complicated. 19:53:49 just means i have to code more... 19:53:54 i do not have a problem with that... 19:54:02 somebody else's code also means someobyd else's bugs... 19:54:07 MikeRiley, cfunge use no external libraries that aren't very common (ncurses) or optional (Boehm-GC) 19:54:08 that may not be fixable by me.... 19:54:10 for URIs, most people will do uri_parse("..."), then uri_equal(x, y) 19:54:13 tada 19:54:14 that's simple 19:54:18 at least with my code...i can understand and fix problems 19:54:19 MikeRiley, it does however use some small libraries where the source is included 19:54:22 and comes with a good standard designed exactly for this behind it 19:54:25 in the lib directory 19:54:26 and interoperability 19:54:27 mostly 1-2 files 19:54:31 one is 3 iirc 19:54:34 but as you see 19:54:41 such a method could be used 19:54:55 Rc/Funge-98 uses no libraries outside of what can be found in any unix installation... 19:55:07 uri libraries are small 19:55:07 MikeRiley, so include the code? 19:55:10 just include it as a c file 19:55:17 no additional libararies are required...and therefore easier for somebody else to compile and get running.... 19:55:22 MikeRiley, I use a small 2 file hash library for example 19:55:26 MikeRiley: such as X, which isn't found in most of my unix installations... 19:55:27 I include the source *inside* cfunge 19:55:31 nothing i hate more than program where i have to go and find 20 other libraries to get working... 19:55:40 MikeRiley: so INCLUDE THE SOURCE 19:55:43 in your source tree 19:55:45 it's only one file 19:55:46 -bash: X: command not found 19:55:47 MikeRiley: package managers and such exist 19:55:54 on one system 19:56:01 as far as X,,,do not include those modules...only TURT and WIND use x.... 19:56:03 ANYWAY WHY NOT JUST INCLUDE THE C FILE IF IT IS SMALL 19:56:04 I do that 19:56:09 and if you do not have x....those those are not usefull anyways... 19:56:21 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System 19:56:27 Deewiant, I know 19:56:34 I got it on this system though 19:56:36 welp, seems MikeRiley is just simply pretending the lines that answer his question don't exist... 19:56:37 MikeRiley: I might have something else instead, though :-P 19:56:38 then comes licensing issues when using other people's code....i may not agree with their licensing terms... 19:56:39 again. 19:56:52 MikeRiley: there are BSD/MIT licensed uri libs... 19:56:53 tons of them 19:57:02 i know that.... 19:57:03 you can just include them in your source tree 19:58:08 again,,,do not like including other code within my projects... 19:58:16 will come up with my own solutions instead... 19:58:23 MikeRiley: then have fun implementing URIs 19:58:28 but we've offered perfectly good solutions 19:58:30 you just don't like them 19:58:33 will not implement uris,,,,and do not need to.... 19:58:43 ok then you won't conform to funge-108 19:58:47 so have fun with that 19:58:57 as long as i can load fingerprints for funge-108,,,then it conforms.... 19:59:10 you won't be able to if you don't support uris 19:59:11 and string comparison will accomplish that... 19:59:12 and how can you, without implementing them... 19:59:17 MikeRiley: no it won't 19:59:19 uris have case rules 19:59:22 HTTP:// = http:// 19:59:25 i can deal with the case rules... 19:59:29 and there's various things that cancel each other out 19:59:36 once you implement them all you just implemented URIs. 20:00:04 i may do something simpler...case may not really matter...will see when somebody starts making fingerprint names with uris.... 20:00:16 of course it will matter 20:00:20 until then,,,it is a moot point... 20:00:24 Deewiant: I hope mycology-108 will test uri equivilence thoroughly 20:00:25 :) 20:00:33 tusho: I won't be the one to write it :-P 20:00:43 Deewiant: hehe, AnMaster might 20:00:49 ? 20:00:54 AnMaster: mycology-108 20:01:01 to test for things like uri equivilence works for loading fingerprints 20:01:03 I don't like funge-108 as a whole anyhoo, -98 is good enough 20:01:13 MikeRiley is claiming that he can implement uri equivilence wrongly and still be conformant 20:01:16 but of course it won't be 20:01:21 since he will consider the same URI as seperate 20:01:26 and thus a bug in fingerprint loading 20:01:31 so mycology-108 should test that 20:01:36 ah yes 20:01:38 maybe 20:01:39 i will make sure that i can load defined fingerprints,,,and will not claim funge108 complience,,,even tho it mostly will be... 20:01:47 at least I will write a few test suites for it 20:01:49 NOT claiming conformance... 20:01:57 MikeRiley: ok. if you just want to be wrong and even though we tell you easy ways to be right, then just fine 20:01:59 tusho, I already got some small test programs to test some parts 20:02:04 MikeRiley: your loss 20:02:22 cfunge will be a "funge-108 interpreter" and yours will be a "broken partly-funge-108 interpreter" 20:02:27 heck *I* will use an URI library 20:02:30 that is fine....you are right,,,,my loss....since i am probably the only user of Rc/Funge-98 anyways...does not really matter does it??? 20:02:43 no, but by that argument I don't even know why you are bothering changing it 20:03:10 because i do use it.... 20:03:22 and if somebody writes funge108 programs,,,i would like to be able to run them... 20:03:27 compliant or not.... 20:03:32 MikeRiley: but what if they happen to rely on that weird uri behaviour 20:03:36 even though you won't be able to, if you're not compliant... 20:03:38 because they're insane - after all this is befunge 20:03:42 i doubt any ever will... 20:03:45 MikeRiley: O RLY? 20:03:48 You underestimate esolang programmers. 20:04:01 If your impl is broken due to some obscure cornercase, you can bet someone will write a program that will break because of it 20:04:04 but work on compliant impls 20:04:05 not really,,,,we shall see... 20:04:14 i do not doubt that!!!! 20:04:14 i think I might 20:04:14 MikeRiley, %63 is same as c I think for exmaple 20:04:20 in which case,,,i will fix the corner case... 20:04:30 MikeRiley: and eventually we'll cover them all 20:04:33 and you'll have implemented URIs 20:04:50 well...then i will have implemented URIs!!!! the hard way!!!!! eheheheheheheheeheh 20:05:01 so, we were trying to offer the easy way 20:05:15 that also lets you say 108-compliant. :p 20:05:22 yeah,,,but one person's easy way is not necessarily good for anotgher... 20:05:36 alright 20:05:42 have fun implementing URIs ... over months ... 20:05:50 different people....different philosophies... 20:06:06 i guarantee you,,,i will have fun at it!!! even if it takes years.... 20:07:08 my fun is working on the interpreter....find things that break it,,,,means more fun for me fixing it.... 20:07:42 mycology was the greatest thing ever for my funge fun....found all kinds of problems that needed to be fixed!!!! eheheheheheehh 20:08:08 AnMaster: can I help write mycology-108 20:08:11 I wanna include fuzz testing in it 20:08:11 :D 20:08:18 MikeRiley: what does the UNDEF test in INDV say for RC/Funge-98 20:08:32 tusho, hah, no fuzz testing would be a separate program 20:08:40 hold on....let me get it 20:08:41 AnMaster: no no no it wouldn't be for no-crashness 20:08:45 but it could be a part 20:08:47 it would be to actually test funge 108 compliance 20:08:51 MikeRiley: you don't need a new mycology 20:08:53 tusho, yes like mycorand is a separate part 20:09:00 Testing fingerprint INDV... loaded. 20:09:01 GOOD: G works 20:09:01 GOOD: P works 20:09:01 UNDEF: V uses illogical RC/Funge-98 order 20:09:01 GOOD: W works 20:09:05 AnMaster: well, presumably mycology-108 will be like 5-7 parts 20:09:12 and mycology108.bf will just do each one 20:09:12 AnMaster: the only reason mycorand is separate is for befunge-93 20:09:15 tusho, I think that is said to SHOULD not MUST in most cases 20:09:21 Deewiant, mycoinput then 20:09:25 and mycotrds 20:09:27 AnMaster: not just "give the input crap see what it does" 20:09:30 but a constrained range of crap 20:09:31 MikeRiley: so have you thought about switching to the logical order, and maybe specifying it like that? ;-) 20:09:34 and to test for behaviour 20:09:38 tusho, the software may not implement i and o 20:09:46 actually,,,yes i have thought about it,,,and will actually do that... 20:09:53 tusho, and yes that makes sense 20:09:54 AnMaster: well yes, it wouldn't use them 20:09:55 but yea 20:09:56 :D 20:10:23 anyway atm I'm googling for an uri library 20:10:56 http://www.w3.org/Library/src/HTParse.html 20:10:59 that seems relevant 20:11:04 will need to take a closer look 20:11:14 yes use that one AnMaster 20:11:17 since its from the w3c 20:11:21 they are pretty good with uris 20:11:21 :P 20:11:25 tusho, yeah :P 20:11:36 need to check license though 20:11:37 got to run for now...church to go to....thanks for the stimulating conversation!!! and hope my devil's advocate approach does not offend anybody.....bye for now... 20:11:43 bye MikeRiley 20:11:47 MikeRiley, cya 20:11:54 church? 20:11:56 church numerals? 20:12:01 yes,,,church... 20:12:07 MikeRiley: he was making a joke 20:12:09 (a rather lame one) 20:12:16 take care all!!! 20:12:16 isn't that for lambda calculus? 20:12:20 yes AnMaster 20:12:21 -!- MikeRiley has left (?). 20:12:26 0=\fx.x 20:12:28 1=\fx.fx 20:12:32 2=\fx.f(fx) 20:12:36 3=\fx.f(f(fx)) 20:12:36 etc 20:12:55 k 20:13:02 I don't get lambda calculus 20:13:07 you've said 20:27:23 -!- kirarinsnow has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:35:12 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho|away. 20:38:51 AnMaster: do you understand the concept of lambda? 20:38:55 nameless function 20:39:38 oklopol, yes, I seen it in a few languages 20:39:41 like C# 20:39:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:39:51 okay, lambda calculus is about just having those. 20:39:54 and nothing else 20:40:06 oklopol, and no + or - and so on iirc 20:40:10 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 20:40:15 turns out we can define things like integers and lists as functions returning other functions 20:40:35 oklopol, what does the innermost function return? 20:40:44 umm what? 20:40:47 ah 20:40:55 well it will return a function. 20:40:58 that is not called 20:41:09 ok.... 20:41:20 now 20:41:46 2=\fx.f(fx) <<< this is just a function that takes a function f and a function x, then calls f with f called with x 20:41:55 so lambda f: lambda x: f(f(x)) 20:42:16 takes a function f, returns a function that takes a function x and then calls f with f(x) 20:42:59 this is one way to define numbers in lambda calculus 20:43:29 a number N in lambda calculus is a function that takes two functions and calls the first one with the latter one N times 20:43:36 -!- tusho|away has changed nick to tusho. 20:44:54 bad explanation, better look at what tusho said there 20:45:30 oklopol: AnMaster thinks in c 20:45:36 at present he has no chance of getting LC 20:45:41 it sjust a fact 20:45:42 :) 20:45:51 of course he can get it 20:46:01 i could easily explain it irl 20:46:28 oklopol: except AnMaster generally doesn't grasp anything non-imperative 20:46:31 I've tried to explain lc 20:46:32 several times 20:57:35 a 20:57:35 a 20:57:36 a 21:02:12 a 21:03:10 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:05:55 sorry was afk, had to mend a broken printer 21:16:49 tusho, about that w3c library, seems it only does normalizing urls 21:16:54 not comparsion 21:16:58 AnMaster: uhh 21:17:01 maybe comparsion is somewhere else in libwww 21:17:03 not same file 21:17:06 compare = string_equality . normalize 21:17:08 duh 21:17:08 :P 21:17:13 tusho, not 100% 21:17:17 AnMaster: yes... 21:17:29 what about uri protocol differences 21:17:33 some have local rules 21:17:36 hmm, okay the 21:17:37 n 21:19:01 -!- jix has joined. 21:20:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:33:14 -!- RedDak has joined. 21:45:55 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:52:17 bye 21:52:20 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire..."). 21:57:50 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 22:01:36 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:02:33 night 22:06:55 -!- SimonRC has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:06:59 -!- SimonRC has joined. 22:16:50 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 22:17:32 -!- kar8nga has joined. 23:03:52 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving."). 23:07:49 -!- dogface has changed nick to ihope. 23:07:55 -!- ihope has changed nick to dogface. 23:35:29 AnMaster-logread-note: 23:35:34 Funge-108 is based on Funge-98 (Pressey, 1998) that is curre 23:35:35 -> which is 23:35:41 The Funge-98 (Pressey, 1998) standard got se1 23:35:43 -> has se 23:35:54 This document will be released under either CC-by-sa2 or GFDL when it is finished. As it is not 23:35:55 yet decided on this document is currently under “copyright” however. 23:36:03 -> if you want ESO standardisation use CC-pd 23:36:16 will likely have more comments later 23:38:22 -!- olsner has joined. 23:38:29 * tusho ponders what a fractional shiftwidth would look like 23:38:34 Specifically, pi. 23:38:41 Presumably it'd start off with three spaces. 23:40:09 and then approx. 1/7th of a column? it's just a matter of allowing non-integer indents, and approximating to the nearest pixel should probably be acceptable? 23:40:38 olsner: Wouldn't it go 3, 3.1, etc? 23:40:51 Or would it really be 3, .01, .004 - because that'd be quite unusable, obviously 23:42:06 I thought you meant tabstops at 3.14, 6.28, 9.42 etc 23:42:42 ah ofc 23:45:22 olsner: it actually works quite well 23:46:20 olsner: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1160950 <- the line feels natural 23:50:42 -!- Judofyr has quit. 23:53:02 anyone have thoughts?