00:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | well, extern char**environ is the part of the POSIX API, so it makes sense that windows has its own API :-P.
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05:06:33 <funktio> AnMaster: I haven't put it online (yet)
05:08:25 <funktio> it's not very interesting, quite ugly code and I haven't implemented any fingerprints
05:08:29 <funktio> but I can upload it somewhere
05:22:31 <funktio> Deewiant: at the end of line 36 in Mycology, there's " dna gnihton seod 5;;; k2 :BAD"
05:22:50 <funktio> shouldn't that BAD be DAB?
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06:07:58 <funktio> http://funktio.awardspace.com/misc/hsfunge/
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06:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Bastard..
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06:41:46 <Deewiant> funktio: isn't that the one you told me about earlier? That's fixed in the latest version
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06:43:30 <funktio> Deewiant: oh, it seemed to still be in the latest version
06:45:48 <funktio> yes it's fixed, I wonder why I still had the older version
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06:55:31 <fizzie> asiekierka; No new interpreters in fungot, but there is again a way to define long programs. (Might be better not to use it much until I've implemented the persistence stuff so that defined programs aren't forgotten when I need to restart it.)
06:56:38 <asiekierka> by HTTP? :D *goes to upload Lost Kingdom*
06:56:58 <fizzie> No, just via IRC. Like this:
06:57:29 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
06:58:50 <fungot> TTHHIISS iiss eecchhoo..
06:58:56 <fizzie> No, that's a reverb. :p
06:59:07 <fizzie> I will add HTTP URLs at some point; currently it's broken that way.
06:59:23 <fizzie> ^def test bf http://example.com/cool_brainfuck_program.b
06:59:35 <fizzie> I think it will mostly just answer that way.
07:00:35 <fizzie> ^def test bf http://zem.fi/no_brainfuck_in_here.b
07:01:11 <fizzie> That host should exist, but there's something wrong with my hostname lookups there. A good thing, too: if it were to succeed, it'd just die since I haven't written any code after that yet.
07:03:14 <asiekierka> I wonder what esolang i should create an ircbot in, since BFirc is for now suspended a little
07:03:31 <asiekierka> Due to problems with the python bfirc interpreter and my bf interpreter/debugger
07:28:13 <fizzie> Hrm, I'm still having FING trouble. I want to use STRN G/P/A commands and FILE together here, so I do (STRN is already loaded) "GNIF"4( "LLUN"4( 'AY'GY'PY 'G'KX 'P'BX "ELIF"4( and it works just fine.
07:29:03 <fizzie> However, I don't know how to restore the situation. What I tried was )'G'KX'P'BX)) but that seems to end up leaving at least G to reflect.
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07:32:26 <fizzie> My thinking was that the first ) would unload FILE cleanly, then 'G'KX 'P'BX would pretty much undo the earlier swaps, and then )) would unload NULL and FING. Does unloading NULL remove the G and P semantics from STRN since I dropped them from NULL, or what?
07:35:09 <fizzie> Seems so, because it works if I add 'T'GZ'T'PZ'T'AZ before unloading NULL.
07:39:16 <fizzie> Maybe I should've just loaded NULL under everything else, then I could probably have been ok with just "GNIF"4( 'G'KX 'P'BX "ELIF"4( ... ) 'G'KX 'P'BX ) -- that's what I first tried, but apparently X reflects if there's nothing loaded on one of the things-to-swap.
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09:24:41 <fizzie> ^def echo bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.>]
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09:26:14 <fizzie> Yay, now it saves the defined commands as well as the ^str strings to a file. Now it only needs to actually load them back too. Well, will do that later.
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10:43:47 <fizzie> Hey, RC/Funge-98's debugger is broken re "show cell" and negative values.
10:45:16 <fizzie> When I enter "show cell 0 -10", it breaks the command argument to fields "cell", "0", "-" and "10", then converts those last three to coordinates and gives me cell x=0,y=0,z=10.
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11:13:16 <fizzie> ^raw QUIT :do you PERSIST?
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11:14:25 <fizzie> Yay. No more "oh, fungot crashed, now I have to spoon-feed all the programs back in". (Well, unless it crashes and messes up the state file too.)
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12:11:14 <fizzie> optbot: There was something I was going to ask you... do you happen to feel coherent right now?
12:11:15 <optbot> fizzie: but I'm not surprised that they're in ASCII
12:11:34 <fizzie> optbot: What are in ASCII?
12:12:08 <fizzie> optbot: ...okay. You don't seem very coherent. Maybe I'll ask later.
12:12:09 <optbot> fizzie: except some by asimov of course
12:12:25 <fizzie> Obviously I did not ask during the operating hours this time.
12:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | my last name is "Richards" so the ownership form is " Richards' ".
12:46:22 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | x+y.
12:46:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I realize the issue with putting a constant in an argument ....
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13:05:49 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i thought it was just the simple form that had the name.
13:05:55 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I know that.
13:19:24 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i said that simple form thing
13:19:36 <oklopol> but i get that feeling from pretty much everything
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13:42:56 <fizzie> Why doesn't oklopol change the topic when you do that?
13:44:02 <fizzie> Admittedly fungot doesn't change the topic either, and it's even a bot.
13:44:17 <fizzie> Whoops, I forgot I had my 'F' test there.
13:45:30 <fizzie> A constant stream of "Hi!"s from fungot would have been pretty stupef-looking.
13:46:32 * oerjan is reminded of the Winslow
14:17:13 <fizzie> The "simple form" was indeed an Oklopol Comment(TM).
14:32:08 <fizzie> 2008-06-12. "In mathematics, a Diophantine equation is an indeterminate polynomial equation that allows the variables to be integers only."
14:33:59 <oklopol> why would i ask context when i did remember it was a failure of mine
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15:04:56 <oerjan> who is the president of china
15:15:44 <tusho> i just lost the game, oklopol
15:16:03 <Deewiant> "the game" is approximately the stupidest thing ever
15:18:09 <tusho> Deewiant: so's your face but I don't mention that all the time
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16:17:09 <tusho> Dunno if this esolang idea has been done before but what the heck, I'm doing it.
16:17:23 <tusho> The interpreter starts off as a very simple Scheme (Just the very very core, and two extra functions)
16:17:26 <tusho> These two extra functions are:
16:17:35 <tusho> (set-interp! F) where F is a function
16:17:43 <tusho> replaces the interp with the lambda F
16:17:56 <tusho> which returns a pair
16:18:07 <tusho> (current-interpreter . interpreter-as-this-pair-format-of-the-language-the-interpreter-is-in)
16:18:52 <oerjan> that's going to make it very important exactly when things are compiled
16:19:27 <oerjan> otherwise you would end up calling F inside F when the original function expects eval
16:20:55 <oerjan> or do you mean that while running F, it uses the second element of the pair
16:21:37 <tusho> oerjan: the latter
16:21:59 <tusho> hmm, I'm going to make it ruby for simplicity (I can just make it a def of set-interp! and get-interp! and then use the ruby eval)
16:23:50 <tusho> it needs a quine, I think.
16:31:34 <tusho> On the other hand, I need to be able to get the program continuation as a stirng.
16:31:39 <tusho> (So that set_interp can switch over.)
16:32:21 <tusho> oerjan: Any thoughts? Brainfuck would be trivial (add {} for setting it and ? for getting it or something) but I'd have to extend dbfi to be able to interpret the dialet.
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17:57:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you complained about that cfunge would be unable to handle a theoretical fingerprint 0. Well now it would be able though, though there would still be file name issues, but I will fix that bit if such a fingerprint is ever implemented in cfunge.
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18:01:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I've only got around 15-20 instructions for it so far
18:01:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I may not implement it of course
18:02:05 <tusho> Deewiant: Make it feral!
18:02:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway what do you plan for it to do?
18:02:31 <AnMaster> tusho, so what? I don't plan to implement all fingerprints in cfunge.
18:02:32 <Deewiant> a collection of useful stuff, some (most?) from other fingerprints
18:02:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anything from MODE or FRTH?
18:02:59 <Deewiant> with the idea that you can start your program with ( and get maximal use from A-Z
18:03:11 <Deewiant> haven't exactly pinned it down
18:03:27 <AnMaster> well one thing, I don't like code duplication. Nor fingerprint duplication
18:03:28 <Deewiant> nothing from MODE at least so far
18:03:44 <tusho> AnMaster: because you absolutely can't just call the other fingerprint's functions
18:04:10 <AnMaster> tusho, not easily as it stands now, would need some work.
18:05:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway can you pastebin your draft?
18:05:33 <Deewiant> because no such thing exists :-P
18:05:45 <Deewiant> and it's so far from done it's not worth writing one
18:06:23 <Deewiant> have a couple of ideas which I will probably make into fingerprints of their own as well
18:18:59 <Deewiant> too un-thought-through to talk about
18:19:21 <Deewiant> stuff that exploits the spatial nature of funges
18:22:15 <Deewiant> what I'm trying to do with 0 is think of stuff that I do a lot in Mycology which I'd like to be easier
18:25:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would mycology depend on 0 being implemented?
18:31:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw do you plan anything for bignums?
18:31:46 <AnMaster> I have some vague ideas about such a fingerprint, but I'm not sure if it is a good idea even
18:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i just finished doing +.
18:44:21 <fizzie> optbot: What did you do the + for?
18:44:21 <optbot> fizzie: (err) unbound: c
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18:46:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | not upgrading.
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18:49:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw thanks to using mmap() I can avoid code duplication for supporting loading funge program for string (for CFFI) :P
18:49:53 <AnMaster> all I need is a wrapper for the load from memory area (or I couldn't handle null bytes when loading from file)
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18:57:42 <tusho> [18:44:21] <optbot> fizzie: (err) unbound: c
18:57:42 <optbot> tusho: jack saw jill on a hill with alice
19:01:35 <AnMaster> huh, I don't understand this code for o in text mode... and I wrote it...
19:01:59 <Deewiant> ripped off from CCBI perhaps? ;-)
19:02:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or do you add to one array and then transfer that to another array?
19:02:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it looks like C style I think
19:03:39 <AnMaster> 1) add full line to array of funge space
19:03:51 <AnMaster> 2) search backwards for first non-space
19:04:23 <AnMaster> 3) copy the array from 0 to first trailing space to another array called towrite
19:04:39 <AnMaster> then I write out that array towrite when I processed all lines
19:08:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, should non-text mode o add a final newline or not?
19:09:50 <Deewiant> "The resulting text file is identical in appearance and takes up less storage space."
19:10:08 <AnMaster> due to less spaces at the end as well
19:10:37 <Deewiant> so, they write out the same data but when in text mode it removes extra spaces/EOLs
19:10:53 <Deewiant> so to me it makes sense that they both write a final EOL, in text mode any further ones are just removed
19:10:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but if you add a final \n in binary mode you couldn't use o to write something like an image file or a program or such
19:11:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you can't use o for that very well anyway :-P
19:11:39 <AnMaster> you just put one byte in each cell in one single line
19:11:44 <Deewiant> although right, you can store line breaks in funge-space
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19:13:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what do you think then?
19:13:25 <Deewiant> why should one do it and the other not
19:13:35 <Deewiant> CCBI always appends a line break
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19:13:48 <AnMaster> currently cfunge does the same, but I plan to change that
19:13:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway text mode doesn't append any final newline
19:14:04 <AnMaster> doing that is against the specs
19:14:15 <Deewiant> yeah, that's what I'm thinking too
19:14:19 <Deewiant> makes it kinda annoying though
19:14:35 <AnMaster> cfunge doesn't add any trailing \n for text mode
19:14:37 <Deewiant> well you need to clear a line below the data you want to write if you want to write a text file
19:14:47 <Deewiant> and you probably want to write a text file if you're writing in text mode
19:15:14 <AnMaster> well, it is still against the specs :P
19:16:02 <AnMaster> I don't have FBBI sources around
19:17:56 <Deewiant> looks like it always appends \n
19:18:13 <AnMaster> so then you mean the specs should be fixed?
19:18:30 <Deewiant> I don't mean anything, that's just what it does :-P
19:18:37 <Deewiant> wouldn't be the only bug in it
19:18:43 <AnMaster> what do you think 108 should say?
19:19:21 <Deewiant> I guess to me it makes most sense that text mode appends a line break and non-text doesn't
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19:25:21 <AnMaster> What if (by using the p instruction for example) the written out data contains a literal LF in the middle of a line? Should spaces before that literal newline be stripped?
19:26:43 <AnMaster> I'd say that is implementation-defined
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19:27:12 <Deewiant> there's no way to detect it from within standard funge anyway
19:27:42 <AnMaster> I don't think CCBI strips such spaces
19:33:08 <AnMaster> • If the least significant bit of the flags cell is high (0x1), o treats the file as a linear text file, otherwise as a binary file:
19:33:08 <AnMaster> – Text file: Any spaces before each EOL, and any EOLs before the EOF, are not written out. The resulting text file is identical in appearance and takes up less storage space. There should however be one final newline after the last data.
19:33:08 <AnMaster> – Binary file: The funge space is written as it is, adding a newline after each line except the last.
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20:12:24 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
20:17:48 <asiekierka> ^rev ^rev ^rev ^rev ^rev hello ver^ ver^ ver^ ver^ ver^
20:17:48 <fungot> ^rev ^rev ^rev ^rev ^rev olleh ver^ ver^ ver^ ver^
20:18:06 <asiekierka> ^rev ^rev ^rev ^rev ^rev olleh ver^ ver^ ver^ ver^
20:19:58 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I should write that unlambda-abstraction-introducer, sometime.
20:20:01 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | >>>1+2.
20:25:06 <fizzie> It reverses bytes, not UTF-8 characters.
20:26:41 <fizzie> >999 equals <1. It's the compiled bytecode, it doesn't have separate > and < instructions.
20:27:11 <fizzie> But there's a bug when you do "^show <something undefined>", it seems; it corrupts the next message. Must fix that at some point.
20:27:26 <fizzie> That's why it didn't answer your first "^show rev".
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20:27:57 <asiekierka> Also, can i write, for example, [3 manually?
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20:29:12 <fizzie> The "^bf" and "^def foo bf" accept standard brainfuck. In any case, [3 in the bytecode thing would mean "a single [ whose jump destination is at 3".
20:29:26 <asiekierka> Add - and <, you'll get a GGIIGGAANNTTIICC speed incerase i think
20:29:46 <fizzie> Huh? The addition speed does not depend on the number.
20:30:09 <asiekierka> or do you compile it to minus 1 while processing the bytecode
20:30:16 <fizzie> It's stored and executed as a single "add 255" instruction.
20:30:59 <fizzie> I would think that's more of an IRC issue than the interpreter.
20:31:04 <fizzie> It's pretty fast when testing locally.
20:31:26 <fizzie> Well, it _is_ slow with complicated programs, but ^rev and friends execute pretty much instantly.
20:31:28 <asiekierka> oh. Maybe it's your internet connection, too
20:31:40 <fizzie> Usually I'd just blame freenode.
20:32:09 <fizzie> This should be about 100 Mbps both directions. At least I get that sort of speeds from most big sites.
20:33:41 <fizzie> But I added a persistence system during the day; now it won't forget things when I need to restart it.
20:33:52 <fizzie> ^raw QUIT :DIE DIE DIE
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20:34:24 <fizzie> (It's missing "test", because I forgot to save. Heh.)
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20:49:26 <ihope> DQQ, ERR, FSS, GTT, HUU, IVV, JWW, KXX, LYY, MZZ... um...
20:49:57 <AnMaster> <fizzie> >999 equals <1. It's the compiled bytecode, it doesn't have separate > and < instructions. <-- so you optimise?
20:50:12 <AnMaster> I hope you optimise [-] into a single "set cell to zero" then
20:57:29 <fizzie> I only combine consecutive strings of <>+- instructions.
20:57:54 <fizzie> Oh, and precompute [] pair targets, but that's not much of an optimization.
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21:00:46 <fizzie> (The bytecode has 6 instructions: add argument to cell (modulo 256), add argument to pointer (modulo 1000), set "PC" to argument if current cell zero, set "PC" to argument if current cell nonzero, input to current cell (with a dummy argument), output from current cell (also with a dummy argument) which are all packed into two-funge-space-cell pairs, opcode (1-6) and argument.
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21:03:39 <fizzie> I could pick up [-] too, although I should maybe then do a separate "remove all non-brainfuck stuff" pass for that to be more pleasant. Or else stick the check in the part where I write a ] instruction into the bytecode.
21:05:54 * dogface compresses Agora's Rule 101 into a /// program
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21:13:45 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | left-to-right is more natural, I would have thought.
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21:27:28 * dogface successfully takes a whopping 40 characters off the 1500-character Rule 101 of Agora
21:47:55 <fizzie> Do I look botty or something?
21:48:18 <dogface> Everyone from Finland is a bot.
21:49:09 <fizzie> So oklopol and Deewiant are bots too?
21:49:40 <dogface> If they're from Finland, yes.
21:50:11 <fizzie> optbot: You're not from Finland, are you?
21:50:11 <optbot> fizzie: I'm not really looking for fair or accurate. Experience-based might be useful, but not necessary.
21:51:44 * dogface starts compressing the entire Agora SLR instead of just a little piece
22:14:36 <dogface> Cool. In the Short Logical Ruleset, the most common 2-character sequence is " ", at 12715.
22:17:31 <dogface> The most common 3-character sequence is " ", at 10393, which could be compressed to remove 20786 characters. The most common 4-character sequence is "----", at 8844, which could be compressed to remove 26532 characters. The most common 5-character sequence is "-----", at 8712, which could be compressed to remove 34848 characters.
22:18:01 <dogface> And yes, I'm being naive by assuming that 8712 instances of ----- means 8712 non-overlapping instances of -----.
22:19:55 <dogface> Being familiar with the SLR, I know that this is actually 132 instances of ----------------------------------------------------------------------, which has 70 characters.
22:19:59 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:21:08 -!- Judofyr has quit.
22:23:43 * dogface decides to stop at 6 characters
22:25:45 <dogface> Trivia: The SLR contains ! twice, " roughly a hundred times, # four times, and $ not at all.
22:26:15 <fizzie> It is not made out of money, then.
22:26:34 <dogface> Darn, I think I made Notepad freeze up.
22:27:04 <dogface> Well, it at least claims to be slaving away still.
22:29:21 <dogface> So, I've compressed the SLR down from 132 KB to 125 KB.
22:39:14 <dogface> And by 115, I meant 116. Now I have it down to 115.
22:40:36 <psygnisfive> how do you find out who created a channel??
22:45:35 <dogface> Why do you want to find out who created a channel?
22:46:41 <dogface> In that case, I have no idea.
22:46:52 <dogface> It's likely that it's not possible.
22:47:03 <psygnisfive> because its how you report abuse on freenode
22:47:09 <psygnisfive> you complain to the guy who created the channel
22:48:04 <dogface> So if I join a channel, then somebody else joins, and I deop myself and op them, and they register it and it goes on to... be abused somehow, people are supposed to complain to me?
22:48:53 <jeffz> psygnisfive: /msg chanserv info #esoteric
22:51:21 <Slereah_> [23:50:50] -ChanServ- Founder : andreou
22:51:21 <Slereah_> [23:50:50] -ChanServ- Registered : Jan 03 01:30:22 2003 (5 years, 33 weeks, 1 day, 20:20:46 ago)
22:59:15 <dogface> And then all the way down to 110 KB.
23:02:46 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:03:20 <oklopol> suddenly i want to sort my deck of cards and try to mimic manual shuffles with python
23:13:16 <tusho> andreou is someone who actually talked about esolangs here.
23:13:17 -!- Slereah has joined.
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23:19:57 -!- tritonio__ has joined.
23:20:52 -!- tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:21:26 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:21:34 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
23:27:18 <dogface> So, I've achieved 16% compression. Not bad.