2008-08-01:

00:00:56 <tusho> SimonRC: i could just get tusho.org
00:01:00 <tusho> but I like creative domains
00:01:04 <tusho> ephemera.org, ontological.org
00:01:08 <tusho> all great places to dump stuff
00:01:12 <tusho> all taken.
00:01:17 <SimonRC> .net?
00:01:24 <SimonRC> epheme.ra?
00:01:34 <SimonRC> .com?
00:01:49 <SimonRC> .<your_country_code_here>
00:01:51 <SimonRC> ?
00:02:04 <ihope> Ooh, I can put a bashbot in here.
00:02:17 <tusho> SimonRC: 1. it's not related to networks 2. I'm kind of going for longetivity (ironically) so I'd prefer a correct domain - in this case, .org 3. see 2 4. I do not consider my identity tied to a country in any way and do not wish for a permanent URL to depend on my current location
00:02:36 <SimonRC> ok
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00:06:59 * SimonRC goes to bed
00:08:44 <tusho> someone else suggest a nice name along the lines of ephemera.org, ontological.org?
00:11:25 <ihope> epistemological.org?
00:11:28 * ihope shrugs
00:11:38 <ihope> transient.org?
00:11:46 <ihope> What do all these mean, anyway?
00:11:57 <tusho> ihope: ephemera is non-permanent information
00:12:01 <tusho> stuff not recorded
00:12:08 <tusho> washed out by the tides of time, flotsam and jetsam
00:12:17 <ihope> Try transient.org, then: stuff passing in and out of existence quickly.
00:12:24 <tusho> ontological ... well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology
00:12:29 <tusho> ihope: Taken.
00:12:32 <tusho> Squatted, even.
00:12:45 <tusho> also I couldn't type epistemological.org all the time :)
00:12:59 <ihope> Ontology looks really boring.
00:14:16 <tusho> Sure.
00:14:20 <tusho> But ontological.org is a nice name.
00:14:24 <ihope> "Does this chair exist?" "Yep." "Prove it." "It's obvious." "No it isn't." "Yes it is." "What if your senses are being deceived?" "Then maybe it doesn't exist."
00:14:33 <tusho> ephemera.org is still my favourite
00:14:38 <tusho> do you think I could kill the photographer guy
00:14:41 <tusho> and steal the odmain
00:14:42 <tusho> *domain
00:14:53 <ihope> "Does 3 exist?" "Yep." "Prove it." "It's obvious." "Could it possibly not exist?" "Nope." "Prove it." "Make it not exist."
00:15:57 * tusho makes 3 not exist
00:15:57 <tusho> BAM
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00:29:23 <tusho> So. Wikis.
00:29:26 <tusho> <b><input onblur="h=new XMLHttpRequest();h.open('PUT',location);h.send(this.
00:29:26 <tusho> value.replace(/([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g,'<a href=$&>$&</a>')+'<b>'+this.parentNode.
00:29:27 <tusho> innerHTML)">
00:29:39 <tusho> A three-line wiki, based on wikke (http://inamidst.com/proj/wikke/) sans backlinks.
00:29:44 <tusho> Requires a server that can support PUT.
00:29:55 <tusho> Setup: Same as wikke. Usage: Ditto.
00:31:11 <tusho> Anyone wanna offer something shorter?
00:31:13 <tusho> Ooh, wait...
00:32:27 -!- adu has joined.
00:32:54 <tusho> Darn.
00:32:59 <tusho> Thought you could use with() but it's the same length
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00:33:46 <adu> in what language?
00:33:55 <tusho> adu: That three line one?
00:34:04 <adu> three line?
00:34:12 <tusho> <b><input onblur="h=new XMLHttpRequest();h.open('PUT',location);h.send(this.
00:34:12 <tusho> value.replace(/([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g,'<a href=$&>$&</a>')+'<b>'+this.parentNode.
00:34:12 <tusho> innerHTML)">
00:34:23 -!- lament has quit (Nick collision from services.).
00:34:28 <adu> as in lisp = atomic <|> parens $ many $ lexeme lisp?
00:34:28 <tusho> Usage & installation @ http://inamidst.com/proj/wikke/. Mine is the same as wikke, but I removed the backlinks.
00:34:35 <tusho> adu: no
00:34:36 <tusho> http://inamidst.com/proj/wikke/
00:34:38 <tusho> errr
00:34:39 <tusho> wait
00:34:41 -!- mental has changed nick to lament.
00:34:47 <tusho> [[
00:34:47 <tusho> <b><input onblur="h=new XMLHttpRequest();h.open('PUT',location);h.send(this.
00:34:48 <tusho> value.replace(/([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g,'<a href=$&>$&</a>')+'<b>'+this.parentNode.
00:34:48 <tusho> innerHTML)">
00:34:48 <tusho> ]]
00:34:51 <tusho> adu: from [[ to ]]
00:34:54 <tusho> is a full wiki implementation
00:35:06 <tusho> usage & setup @ http://inamidst.com/proj/wikke/ - mine is identical wikke, but I removed backlinks
00:35:14 <tusho> thus removing the php dependency
00:35:20 <tusho> and making it a bit shorter
00:36:31 <adu> ic
00:36:46 * tusho makes a textarea'd version and puts it up online
00:37:01 <adu> interesting
00:37:14 <adu> i'm trying to make language
00:37:27 <adu> and I wish it was as easy as 3 lines
00:38:13 <adu> so does that mean my above code is a full implementation of lisp?
00:38:32 <tusho> adu: no
00:38:38 <tusho> I don't see where you draw the analogy
00:38:45 <tusho> mine doesn't call out to some library or whatever
00:39:16 <tusho> golf'd to 162 chars:
00:39:17 <tusho> <textarea onblur="h=new XMLHttpRequest();h.open('PUT',location);h.send(this.
00:39:17 <tusho> innerHTML.replace(/([A-Z][a-z]+){2,}/g,'<a href=$&>$&</a>')+
00:39:18 <tusho> '<br>'+this.outerHTML)">
00:39:20 * tusho puts it online
00:39:38 <adu> i'd like to try it out
00:40:29 <ihope> adu: ello.
00:40:33 <ihope> You're trying to make a language?
00:40:50 <adu> hbi
00:40:57 <adu> ihope: yers
00:41:04 * adu makes 2 many spelling errors
00:41:26 <adu> ihope: are you interested / also designing one?
00:41:36 <ihope> I've made a few, though I rarely implement them.
00:41:48 <ihope> I'm interested in seeing what this language is all about.
00:41:58 <adu> i've implemented 2, but only at the parser level with some basic interpreters behind them
00:42:21 <adu> its all about lists and sets
00:42:41 <ihope> Sounds cool.
00:42:57 <adu> I strongly believe that a good foundation based on these will give more abstract functions
00:42:58 <ihope> Can you describe it?
00:43:01 <adu> yes
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00:43:48 <adu> its going to be a mix of strong static typing (for homogeneous lists/sets) and weak dynamic typing (for heterogeneous lists/sets)
00:44:09 <adu> i don't know how I'm going to pull that off... but thats an implementation detail
00:45:04 <adu> anyways, the syntax isn't something of debate, commas (,) for homogeneous lists/sets and semicolons (;) for heterogeneous lists/sets, and [...] for lists and {...} for sets, obviously
00:46:33 <adu> [1, 2, 3] is a hom-list [3; "hello"] is a heter-list, {a, b, c} is a hom-set and {3; find_average x; res = y} is a heter-set
00:47:51 <adu> I was thinking since most code blocks in all languages start with some identifier anyways, like "with" or "let" or "do" or "for", just make these functions that take heter-sets or heter-lists and evaluate them in parallel or sequentially (respectively)
00:48:52 <adu> because [1, 2, x=y] would evaluate to  [1, 2, x=y] but "do  [1, 2, x=y]" would evaluate to "y" as in most langs
00:49:14 <adu> ack that should be [1; 2; x=y] bcuz its heterogeneous...
00:49:16 <adu> oops
00:50:05 <adu> and I also would like to experiment with well-documented "fields"
00:50:23 <adu> everything between the commas/semicolons is a "field" or whatever you wanna call it
00:50:50 <adu> each field is of the form (id = patt : value :: type ::: doc)
00:51:08 <adu> where everything except "value" is optional
00:52:20 <adu> and "doc" would be used for formal documentation, such as labels for building GUIs, or function descriptions for building API/manuals
00:53:05 <adu> and since each field is going to possibly be a binding, that binding will be in effect throughout  the list/set
00:53:24 <adu> like [x=5, x] could evaluate to [5, 5]
00:53:59 <adu> I'm still not sure when that evaluation will take place, though, because I also want bindings to be either first-class or reifyable
00:55:05 * ihope nods
00:56:02 <adu> so that you can treat these also as maps/cases like "do [x=False, [True: 3, False: 4] (some operator?) x]" to give 4
00:57:01 <adu> I'd like to treat [True: 3, False: 4] as a function from bool to int, but there are other problems with doing that...
00:57:40 <adu> so I may just have to think up some higher-order thing like Monads or something to deal with it cuz I want to write just "[True: 3, False: 4] False" == 4
00:58:23 <adu> the difference between "id=" and "patt:" being that one establishes a binding, and the other pattern matches against an input, like in a lambda
00:59:05 <adu> and i'm assuming "True" and "False" would already be established, so we don't want to redefine them...
00:59:53 <adu> ihope: making any sense so far?
01:01:10 <ihope> Yep.
01:01:35 <ihope> It doesn't seem like you need monads to treat something like [True: 3, False, 4] as a function.
01:02:12 <adu> ...anyways, "if x y z" could be implemented "{True: y, False: z} x" and "case" very similarly
01:02:14 <ihope> In Python, {True: 3, False: 4}[False] is 4, I think.
01:02:27 * ihope nods
01:02:28 <adu> yup
01:03:16 <adu> anyways I also have some other ideas about modules, objects, and first-class types, but thats kind of auxiliary, thats the jist of it
01:03:46 <tusho> cool
01:04:14 <adu> but the languages that have inspired me the most are Io, Scheme, Haskell, and Mathematica
01:04:34 <adu> so I'm probably going to reimplement some of their features eventually...
01:04:57 * ihope nods vigorously
01:05:02 <lament> it's kinda hard to combine those meaningfully :)
01:05:35 <adu> I have put a great deal of thought into the map combinator
01:05:46 <adu> perhaps too much thought
01:05:49 <tusho> adu: mathematica
01:05:51 <tusho> :(
01:05:56 <adu> tusho: why :(
01:06:13 <tusho> horrible language, horrible implementation
01:06:42 <adu> tusho: I think its a great language, and a great implementation, you have to be more specific
01:06:51 <tusho> no, i don't :)
01:07:03 <adu> ok
01:07:08 <tusho> (unrelatedly, wolfram is a jerk)
01:07:13 <adu> lol
01:07:24 <adu> thats probably true, most CEOs are
01:08:17 * tusho recalls the announcement when our resident ais523 proved that the 2,3 machine is TC
01:08:21 <adu> lament: they're pretty similar if you look past their plethora of differences ;)
01:08:33 <adu> tusho: your in UK?
01:08:42 <tusho> "Aha! Some guy did this. Whatever. But anyway! This is so great. this means that I WAS RIGHT. Therefore we can further my rightness by leveraging how right I am."
01:08:44 <tusho> adu: yes
01:08:51 <tusho> why?
01:09:21 <adu> tusho: did he actuallly say that?
01:09:43 <tusho> adu: that was paraphrased, duh
01:09:47 <adu> lol
01:09:59 <tusho> http://blog.wolfram.com/index.php?year=2007&monthnum=10&name=the-prize-is-won-the-simplest-universal-turing-machine-is-proved
01:10:10 <tusho> Wolfram on how right he is and something about some stupid guy named Alex Smith that did something
01:10:29 <oklopol> takes a real genius to guess a complex-looking thing is tc
01:11:02 <oklopol> with infinite storage, that's like so rare.
01:11:02 <adu> I could guess something like that
01:11:06 <adu> I think my toilet is TC
01:11:07 <tusho> when making a language it's hard not to make a lang tc
01:11:46 <adu> tusho: no its easy
01:12:02 <tusho> adu: Not if you go past trivia.
01:12:13 <tusho> (Where trivia is being used as the plural of trivial.)
01:12:23 <adu> hmm
01:12:34 <adu> so brainf wouldn't count?
01:12:39 <adu> what about half of branf?
01:12:49 <lament> what?
01:12:56 <adu> half of brainfuck
01:12:58 <lament> which half?
01:13:08 <adu> like instead of - and + just +
01:13:16 <adu> and instead of < and >, just >
01:13:30 <adu> so all you can do is increment and move forward
01:13:37 <adu> and without jumping operators
01:13:45 <pikhq> I suspect Alex needs to kick Wolfram's ass.
01:13:48 <adu> i don't think that's TC
01:14:09 <tusho> pikhq: I think it's more amusing to watch them bumble around.
01:14:09 <adu> pikhq: no, Alex should sue Wolfram for $75,000 more
01:14:47 <lament> adu: no, but it doesn't really qualify as a programming language because you can't write anything in it
01:15:01 <adu> lament: like java?
01:15:15 <lament> if you can't write anything in java, you need your brain examined
01:15:37 <tusho> uhh
01:15:40 <tusho> just + and > is TC
01:15:44 <tusho> if you have a wrapping tape + cells
01:15:54 <tusho> - = 256(or 255) * +
01:16:02 <oerjan> tusho: i don't think so
01:16:04 <tusho> < = 3000(or 2999,3001 whatever) * >
01:16:09 <pikhq> tusho: No.
01:16:18 <pikhq> tusho: You need to be able to do a loop.
01:16:20 <pikhq> *Need*.
01:16:28 <tusho> pikhq: Yes. So you have [ and ]
01:16:33 <tusho> and , and .
01:16:38 <pikhq> Which isn't just + and >
01:16:41 <tusho> oh wait
01:16:42 <adu> ya I tried to do "public override static bool reduce = \xs -> foldr (+) $ repeat xs"
01:16:44 <adu> and it didn't work
01:16:45 <tusho> 'and without jumping operators'
01:16:53 <pikhq> Anyways, real minimalism in Brainfuck?
01:17:02 <tusho> adu: HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh god, it's hilarious because you made fun of Java.
01:17:05 <tusho> Stick it to the man.
01:17:12 <pikhq> Boolfuck for one...
01:17:36 <lament> tusho: i don't see how, either you have a finite tape, and so cells must be infinite, and so loops don't work; or the tape is infinite so you have no memory
01:17:56 <tusho> lament: true...
01:17:59 <tusho> okay then
01:18:20 <oerjan> tusho: if you lack - you cannot use infinite-size cells usefully.  if you lack < you cannot use an infinite tape.  if you lack both, you have no way to use infinite memory
01:18:21 <oklopol> + and > aren't tc no matter what size and number of cells you have
01:18:25 <pikhq> It appears someone has managed to create a Brainfuck-based system with 3 instructions.
01:18:27 <tusho> yes
01:18:43 <oklopol> you need either infinite cells or an infinite amount of cells, and in both cases either + or > is insufficient for doing anything
01:19:37 <oklopol> always glad to repeat a point made by two people.
01:19:51 <oklopol> ...is that trepeating?
01:19:56 <oklopol> tripeating
01:20:07 <oerjan> oklopol: trepanation, to get it through his THICK SKULL
01:20:12 <tusho> har har har
01:21:09 <oklopol> hmm
01:21:29 <oklopol> wonder what adding # for appending a zero cell to the right end does
01:21:49 <oklopol> probably not enough
01:21:51 <oerjan> that P'' that predates brainfuck managed to combine a couple of the commands and have just 5 (ignoring . and ,) iirc
01:22:18 <oklopol> the wiki has a more extreme example
01:22:40 <oklopol> well
01:22:58 <oklopol> boolfuck with byte sized cells
01:23:01 <oklopol> is exactly that
01:23:12 <oerjan> er, what?
01:23:36 <oklopol> 5 opers
01:23:41 <oklopol> errr
01:23:49 <oklopol> actually don't you get 5 by just removing -
01:25:48 <oerjan> hm yeah
01:27:18 <oklopol> and i think you can still merge + and >
01:28:06 <tusho> bye for today
01:28:07 <tusho> oklopol: yes
01:28:08 <tusho> make it +>
01:28:10 <tusho> or >+
01:28:11 <tusho> whatever
01:28:26 <oklopol> ya
01:28:39 <oklopol> so four, and coding is still simple as hell
01:29:05 <oklopol> coding is simple? i mean compilation
01:29:06 <oklopol> anyway
01:29:20 <oklopol> yay page loaded! not that i need it anymore
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02:04:41 <adu> ihope: you still there?
02:07:31 <ihope> Yep.
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02:14:25 <adu> o hi
02:14:41 <adu> so do you have any more comments about the lang I described above?
02:28:15 <ihope> Well, it doesn't seem very esoteric.
02:30:57 <psygnisf_> oklopol
02:31:00 <psygnisf_> whats +>?
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02:40:17 <adu> ihope: what if it had no assignment
02:40:38 <ihope> Haskell has no assignment.
02:40:44 <adu> :)
02:46:20 <psygnisfive> no purely functional language has assignment.
02:46:28 <psygnisfive> or atleast no reassignment
02:46:59 <psygnisfive> tho i imagine you could design a system that's purely functional but allows assignment
02:47:38 <psygnisfive> by passing around an implicit state object from statement to statement in CPS
02:47:41 <psygnisfive> or something like that
02:48:16 <ihope> In CPS?
02:48:23 <psygnisfive> continuation passing style
02:48:25 <ihope> Is that necessary?
02:48:37 <psygnisfive> well, perhaps not exactly CPS
02:48:38 <psygnisfive> but
02:48:49 <ihope> Implicit state object passing style. :-)
02:49:00 <psygnisfive> like, if we did it explicitly
02:49:06 <psygnisfive> or showed it, or whatever
02:49:15 <psygnisfive> something like x = x+2 becomes something like
02:50:01 <psygnisfive> function (state) {
02:50:01 <psygnisfive> return newState = copy(state, { x: state.x+2 });
02:50:02 <psygnisfive> }
02:50:06 <psygnisfive> or something, in JS-style
02:50:36 <psygnisfive> er.. deleted the newState =
02:50:37 <psygnisfive> :p
02:51:14 <psygnisfive> so then if you'd do after that x = x*3; that'd be function (state) { return copy(state, { x: state.x*3 }); }
02:51:21 <psygnisfive> each of these would be involved, btw.
02:51:31 <psygnisfive> so x = x + 2; x = x * 3;
02:51:35 <psygnisfive> would just be
02:51:46 <psygnisfive> second(first(startState))
02:51:53 <ihope> I once pondered the idea of having \x being a value distinct from x that takes a value and somehow binds it to x.
02:51:54 <psygnisfive> or in haskellian style
02:51:58 <psygnisfive> first >>= second
02:51:59 <psygnisfive> or something
02:53:11 <psygnisfive> so its atleast possible to model state-based computation without using state-as-such
02:53:40 <psygnisfive> what would that do, ihope? this \x thing, i mean
02:59:29 <ihope> Well, you could define your own operator, :=, saying that "\x := x + 2" increases x by 2.
03:01:18 <psygnisfive> ??
03:24:52 <ihope> The \x would take a value and bind it to x?
03:25:30 <ihope> Then you pass the "binder" into any function that can bind values to variables.
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04:41:36 <psygnisfive> im not sure i follow, ihope.
04:41:38 <psygnisfive> but thats ok.
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06:07:12 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it's about 17.
06:07:30 <psygnisfive> what??
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06:18:55 <oklopol> psygnisfive: think about it, i guess you might get it eventually
06:19:24 <psygnisfive> i dont understand! :O
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06:25:19 <oklopol> my eyes hurt
06:37:10 <oklopol> so see you, barely ->
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07:34:50 <psygnisfive> *sigh*
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12:31:07 <ais523> hi tusho
12:31:12 <tusho> you know
12:31:13 <tusho> I just sat down
12:31:14 <tusho> thsi second
12:31:16 <tusho> literally
12:31:31 <tusho> I replied to someone who had messaged me while I was gone with "back"
12:31:33 <tusho> and then I saw that
12:31:41 <ais523> good timing, then
12:31:46 <tusho> L;'
12:31:46 <tusho> ASD fghjkl;'
12:31:47 <tusho> ZXCvbnm,./
12:31:49 <tusho> er
12:31:59 <tusho> ais523: bad timing
12:32:02 <tusho> i had no chance
12:32:12 <ais523> well, ok
12:32:21 <ais523> you are forgiven
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12:43:02 <tusho> meanwhile, too many domains are taken
12:43:06 <tusho> domains suck
12:43:07 <tusho> :p
12:43:31 <ais523> ok, the next big thing: hexspeak in IPv6 addresses
12:43:37 <ais523> that way you don't need a DNS
12:43:41 <tusho> great
12:43:42 <ais523> and it's still memorable
12:43:52 <tusho> ais523: what about companies
12:44:02 <tusho> i don't think apple or microsoft will be happy with having to use 1337speak
12:44:11 <ais523> well, I just made that up, but it's still a great idea
12:44:17 <ais523> and if everyone else is doing it they will to
12:44:19 <ais523> s/to/too/
12:44:24 <tusho> A10101E
12:44:46 <ais523> what's that meant to spell? Anyway, you need a colon every four chars
12:44:53 <ais523> as in 9009:1e::
12:45:02 <tusho> ais523: meant to spell apple
12:45:04 <tusho> 10 = P
12:45:06 <ais523> oh, ok
12:45:09 <ais523> Google is easier
12:45:24 <tusho> a101:01e::
12:45:55 <tusho> anyway, the taken domain in question is ephemera.org which is taken by some stupid photographer who ended the site in january 2007.
12:45:57 <ais523> probably a10:101e:: would scan better, you don't want a colon in the middle of a letter
12:46:04 <tusho> damn photographers >:(
12:46:32 <tusho> (I decided that I didn't want tusho.oprg)
12:46:33 <tusho> *org
12:46:42 <tusho> (Because the content could very well outlive me. Wishful thinking, I know.)
12:47:10 <tusho> (But I would like it not to depend on me for maintainence. So the footer will probably link to /maintainer/ which would redirect to /tusho/, etc.)
12:47:22 <ais523> tusho: you aren't going to end up creating a completely portable website that's robust against everything
12:47:32 <ais523> as in, I can sort-of understand not wanting a geographical website
12:47:42 <tusho> ais523: no, but say I get tired of the site
12:47:49 <tusho> and give up on doing anything with it
12:47:53 <tusho> i'd like for someone else to be able to take it up
12:48:00 <ais523> why not just name it with the null string so that it's just as inappropriate no matter what the website's used for
12:48:06 <tusho> so it'll be freely licensed, kept in a git repository, have it not depend on me, etc
12:48:16 <tusho> anyway, http://ephemera.org/ looks cooler than http://tusho.org/
12:48:17 <ais523> if you call it anything else at all, that's restricting what content you can put on it to some extent...
12:48:27 <tusho> ais523: not unless I use the power of irony
12:48:36 <tusho> (a long-term, well-preserved site calling itself 'ephemera.org')
12:49:28 <tusho> and use the power of non-irony for the actually ephemerical content on it
12:52:46 <tusho> maybe I'll get botte's project namer to name it for me
12:59:50 <tusho> ais523: http://pastebin.ca/1089610
12:59:53 <tusho> botte plugin example
13:00:47 <ais523> how can it tell a variable from a literal
13:00:54 <ais523> as in the karma nickname command
13:01:04 <tusho> ais523: you don't have literals in command arguments, generally
13:01:24 <ais523> ok, so everything before the first space is literal, everything after's a variable?
13:01:25 <tusho> just like in ruby you can't do: def foo(bar, "baz", quux)
13:01:30 <tusho> well
13:01:34 <ais523> you can in Prolog!
13:01:34 <tusho> first word is the command name
13:01:38 <tusho> so depends on the command prefix
13:01:43 <tusho> botte will probably use .
13:01:45 <tusho> so .karma+ tusho
13:01:59 <tusho> also, the argspec => doc thing is using a nice little trick of ruby's
13:02:04 <ais523> does a variable called 'nickname' automatically limit the possibilities to nicknames?
13:02:10 <tusho> no
13:02:19 <tusho> anyway, it's how it does "keyword arguments" - if you do foo => bar in an arg list, it makes it all a hash
13:02:25 <tusho> foo bar, baz, quux => bang
13:02:29 <tusho> == foo bar, baz, {quux => bang}
13:02:38 <tusho> so it gets the argspec as the key and the documentation as the value
13:02:52 <tusho> and also, i think intentionally restricting it to nicknames is bad here
13:02:56 <tusho> consider .karma- microsoft
13:03:00 <tusho> I should handle case insensitivity thouhg
13:03:30 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:03:45 <ais523> what about prefix/suffix insensitivity?
13:03:52 <ais523> ais523|busy should count the same as ais523
13:03:57 <ais523> according to Freenode's nick rules
13:04:13 <ais523> also note that for historical reasons punctuation marks have case on Usenet too
13:04:17 <ais523> e.g. { is capital [
13:04:21 <ais523> or possibly lowercase [
13:04:24 <ais523> I get confused...
13:04:34 <ais523> and s/Usenet/IRC/
13:04:36 <tusho> ais523: i am going to ignore the { vs [ thing
13:04:38 * ais523 wonders how they managed that
13:04:42 <tusho> because Nobody Cares
13:04:55 <tusho> do the simplest thing that could possibly work etc
13:08:02 <ais523> well you're going to fall afoul of people with nested comments in their email addresses
13:08:10 <ais523> I've taken to doing that in various places recently to see what happens
13:08:17 <ais523> Slashdot seems not to mind, but that's not very surprising
13:08:26 <tusho> ais523: actually, I rarely do much validation of emails
13:08:34 <ais523> makes sense
13:08:46 <tusho> I tend to check for it having an @ in it, a . in it after the @ (but not directly after) and that's about it
13:08:54 <tusho> if I really need to know it's a real email I send a confirmation email
13:09:49 * ais523 wonders about the possibility of tusho's ISP being mean to em by setting up the bounce message for an invalid address to look like an acceptance of the registration or whatever
13:09:59 <tusho> ais523: actually, that's not how you do it
13:10:10 <tusho> because it's basically impossible to tell if an email has actually been sent with servers
13:10:14 <tusho> you send an email with a link with a secret token in
13:10:23 <tusho> like http://site.com/activate/dsfiuyds89ru23894u9898duf89sf892345
13:10:26 <ais523> well, yes, I know
13:10:29 <tusho> :)
13:10:34 <ais523> normally it's done so that the reply can be done via email too
13:10:39 <ais523> i.e. email with a secret token
13:10:46 <tusho> ais523: I can never be sure, your view of the web is ... unconventional
13:10:48 <ais523> and that's the mean-bounce-message thign I was mentioning
13:10:49 <tusho> see, like that
13:10:53 <tusho> barely anybody does that any more
13:11:00 <tusho> mailing lists, sure. but never websites
13:11:15 <ais523> tusho: my view of the Internet is unconventional in that it involves more than just the Web
13:11:22 <tusho> ais523: of course
13:11:25 <tusho> i am not web-centric
13:11:28 <tusho> I just like the web a lot
13:11:37 <ais523> well, most people are web-centric
13:11:50 <tusho> due to its low barrier for content creation and generation, ubiquity and the wide range of content it can support
13:15:42 <ais523> maybe the reason I said Usenet rather than IRC by mistake is that Slashdot were linking to an article claiming that Usenet was dead (and in the comments, someone claimed that it was now finally October 1)
13:16:13 <ais523> they're wrong, though, it's still September, just worse than ever
13:16:17 <ais523> a sort of month 9+i
13:16:38 <tusho> we all have to do our bit to edge closer to october 1...
13:17:00 <ais523> tusho: that basically involves persuading all the idiots on the internet to become more sensible, I doubt that'll happen ever
13:17:25 <ais523> $ sdate date
13:17:25 <ais523> Fri Sep 5449 13:17:19 BST 1993
13:17:35 <tusho> ais523: the 31st of August wasn't perfect...
13:17:37 <ais523> it's such a shame, really...
13:18:02 <ais523> (incidentally sdate is the sort of thing that would drive AnMaster mad)
13:18:05 <tusho> p.s. my birthday is in 21 days, huh.
13:18:15 <AnMaster> ais523, what?
13:18:18 <ais523> that gives me an idea, actually, I wonder what happens if I run cfunge under sdate
13:18:27 <tusho> ais523: It uses posix_time.
13:18:32 <tusho> It'll just pass right through.
13:18:35 <AnMaster> ais523, no system have a command sdate here
13:18:39 <AnMaster> I checked all of mine
13:18:51 <ais523> AnMaster: well it's not the sort of thing I'd expect you to install
13:18:52 * tusho ponders why AnMaster thinks all software is installed by default
13:18:55 <ais523> it wraps all the date system calls
13:19:00 <ais523> so that you get Eternal September dates
13:19:05 <AnMaster> ah..................
13:19:12 <ais523> it confuses a lot of software though as it isn't used to getting day values above 31...
13:19:17 <AnMaster> tusho, I just checked that it wasn't
13:19:45 <AnMaster> ais523, try ddate, I think most systems with GNU coreutils have it
13:19:48 <AnMaster> it is rather silly
13:19:52 <tusho> ais523: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=631969&cid=24419297
13:20:01 <ais523> y claims all of the following:
13:20:03 <ais523> [snip]
13:20:13 <ais523>         That the day of the month is 73
13:20:13 <ais523>         That the month is 30
13:20:13 <ais523>         That the year is 1993
13:20:22 <tusho> AnMaster: I linked to an article a bit ago when someone had a database that they got converted to access ... and the discordian calendar
13:20:22 <AnMaster> month is 30?
13:20:29 <tusho> the whole forum was wtfing
13:20:29 <ais523> interesting, it seems to have come up with an eternal 1993
13:20:36 <ais523> rather than an eternal september
13:20:36 <AnMaster> ais523, they are shifted
13:20:46 <AnMaster> ais523, all are stored in one 32-bit int
13:20:48 <Deewiant> ais523: the date format is year + month*256 + day*256*256 or something
13:20:51 <AnMaster> ais523, but bit shifted
13:20:55 <Deewiant> probably little-endian actually
13:20:58 <Deewiant> but anyhoo
13:20:59 <ais523> ah, that would explain why it got it wrong
13:21:16 <AnMaster> <tusho> AnMaster: I linked to an article a bit ago when someone had a database that they got converted to access ... and the discordian calendar <-- heh what!?
13:21:22 <AnMaster> tusho, link?
13:21:30 <tusho> AnMaster: sorry, lost it
13:21:36 <tusho> it was great though
13:21:40 <tusho> wait
13:21:43 <tusho> (p.s. alt.inside-jobs.nine-eleven.wake.up.sheeple)
13:23:02 <tusho> AnMaster: http://forums.devshed.com/database-management-46/ddate-discordian-date-problems-321852.html
13:24:28 <tusho> I like this quote: "Why cause chaos?"
13:24:33 <tusho> very zen
13:24:42 <tusho> or rather, non-zen
13:27:24 <AnMaster> tusho, are the dates in the db actually discordian?
13:27:25 <AnMaster> wtf
13:27:43 <ais523> that reminds me of the alleged justification for INTERCAL (as opposed to the real one)
13:27:43 <tusho> see, I knew I shouldn't have sent AnMaster that link
13:27:46 <tusho> "But it's NOT SENSIBLE"
13:27:53 <AnMaster> it isn't at all indeed
13:28:07 <ais523> AnMaster doesn't quite seem to fit here because he's too sane compared to the rest of us
13:28:23 <tusho> ais523: most sane people can laugh at a joke, though
13:28:38 <tusho> AnMaster points out how the premise is illogical and how it isn't sensible
13:29:02 <ais523> tusho: for all I (and you) know, that's one massive joke that AnMaster's having at our expense
13:29:11 <ais523> and I hope it is, actually, if that behaviour actually does happen
13:29:16 <tusho> ais523: then he's a huge bastard :P
13:29:24 <ais523> of course whether it is or not AnMaster will deny it
13:29:26 <tusho> because it's driving me mad!
13:29:29 <AnMaster> what?
13:29:30 <AnMaster> ....
13:29:57 <ais523> AnMaster: sorry, there really isn't a sensible response to what I just said, and I apologise for digging you into a hole like that
13:30:00 <AnMaster> tusho, actually I find that link quite funny
13:30:03 <AnMaster> just very very wtf
13:30:23 <tusho> ais523: actually he could have said "But that's utterly ridiculous!"
13:31:08 <ais523> tusho: pretty much anyone who is either a programmer or reads lots of Terry Pratchett can easily decode the hidden meaning in that
13:31:13 <AnMaster> well in other channels ppl tend to think I'm *insane* after all, I wrote a modular irc bot in bash and so on
13:31:17 <ais523> oh, or who is used to dealing with politicians
13:31:33 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I got all Terry Pratchett books
13:31:37 <tusho> *have
13:31:41 <AnMaster> and maps and so on
13:31:43 -!- ais523 has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when  "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity.
13:31:44 <AnMaster> tusho, sorry, right
13:31:49 * tusho wonders how many times he'll correct got vs have in his lifetime
13:31:51 <tusho> :D
13:31:51 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed
13:31:56 <tusho> i should write a script to do it
13:32:09 <AnMaster> you have that right!
13:32:14 <AnMaster> err... got that right
13:32:30 <AnMaster> ;P
13:32:36 <tusho> the universe just imploded
13:32:43 <tusho> AnMaster made a joke ... and it was funny :O
13:32:52 <tusho> haha :O looks funny on this font
13:32:53 <tusho> :O
13:33:04 <AnMaster> screenshot?
13:35:08 <tusho> AnMaster: maybe
13:36:14 <tusho> ais523: http://pastebin.ca/1089636
13:36:18 <tusho> full karma plugin
13:36:21 <tusho> including Karma class
13:37:02 <AnMaster> tusho, for what irc bot?
13:37:06 <tusho> AnMaster: botte
13:37:13 <AnMaster> bring it online?
13:37:20 <AnMaster> tusho, also you know envbot can do that ;P
13:37:27 <ais523> I don't think e's finished writing the bot yet
13:37:29 <tusho> of course envbot can do it
13:37:30 <tusho> it's trivial
13:37:34 <ais523> tusho just spends ages thinking up syntax for it
13:37:40 <tusho> ais523: no, not really
13:37:44 <ais523> sort of like writing a spec for a language but not an interp
13:37:47 <tusho> it's kind of like weak BDD
13:38:05 <tusho> i'm writing an executable test case then I implement what is needed to make it operate
13:38:07 <tusho> it's bdd but lets me avoid learning bdd and be lazy :D
13:38:27 <ais523> tusho: have you ever come across UML?
13:38:28 <tusho> anyway
13:38:37 <tusho> the other examples I'd made in the past broke down on more complex stuffs
13:38:37 <tusho> so
13:38:40 <ais523> I think it's the most crazily complex programming language I've ever seen that isn't TC
13:38:40 <tusho> ais523: yes, unfortunately
13:38:47 <tusho> it isn't a programming language though.
13:38:51 <tusho> you CAN programmatically translate it
13:38:56 <tusho> but that's even crazier than uml itself
13:39:23 <ais523> well, I'm not sure whether it's a very unusual programming language, or a non-programming-language entity that is used for programming
13:39:29 <ais523> there are arguments to be made both ways
13:42:48 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
13:43:47 <tusho> AnMaster: http://img.skitch.com/20080801-t534mi4i68xk3xfpf73q6qmrn2.png
13:44:08 <AnMaster> ah yes it does
13:44:12 <AnMaster> why the different colour?
13:44:23 <tusho> AnMaster: this client displays smilies by giving them colours
13:44:27 <tusho> instead of awful images
13:44:35 <AnMaster> tusho, my client does neither
13:44:36 <AnMaster> :D
13:44:38 <ais523> I prefer text smilies
13:44:42 <AnMaster> just plain text
13:44:46 <AnMaster> I hate the images
13:44:47 <tusho> test :) :D >:) xD :<
13:44:50 <ais523> in Mibbit I click on all the smilies when they arrive to change them into text
13:45:03 <tusho> i prefer text smilies too but this effect is kinda neat
13:45:07 <ais523> on Konversation I just get the text though
13:45:08 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080801-p7psigy2ksgr8g9q16f643bwsx.png
13:45:26 <AnMaster> XD not xD
13:45:28 <AnMaster> IMO
13:45:32 <AnMaster> xD looks silly
13:45:50 <tusho> XD looks even more like a seizure than xD
13:46:06 <AnMaster> tusho, oh?
13:46:10 <tusho> yes
13:46:14 <tusho> look at it on its side
13:46:15 <AnMaster> blergh I can't get suspend to ram to work
13:46:41 <AnMaster> tusho, depends on font I guess
13:46:50 <AnMaster> Bitstream Vera Sans Mono here
13:47:30 <ais523> AnMaster: suspend to ram depends on which font you're using?
13:47:38 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080801-nu3ip2hiyjugrkbgxkaunx14uk.png
13:48:09 <AnMaster> ais523, no...
13:48:15 <AnMaster> ais523, unrelated discussions
13:48:26 <tusho> AnMaster: that was called a joke
13:48:44 <AnMaster> tusho, well my joke detector is very weak you know :P
13:48:46 <tusho> oh wow
13:48:51 <tusho> del.icio.us 2 just launched
13:49:05 <AnMaster> what?
13:49:17 <tusho> AnMaster: you know ... del.icio.us
13:49:28 <tusho> hmm, seems they're redirecting to delicious.com now
13:49:35 <AnMaster> yet another page like digg and so on right?
13:49:36 <tusho> the first widely-known domain pun finally gives it up!
13:49:39 <tusho> AnMaster: not really
13:49:44 <tusho> it's a bookmark site.
13:49:58 <tusho> that lets you use across computers, etc
13:50:05 <tusho> and it also tracks kind of diggy stuff like popular bookmarks right now
13:50:05 <ais523> incidentally, where does icio.us go?
13:50:09 <tusho> and tags of bookmarks and similar
13:50:15 <tusho> ais523: doesn't resolve
13:50:24 <ais523> that's ridiculous
13:50:28 <tusho> totally
13:50:33 <ais523> they bought an entire domain just to access one subdomain?
13:50:38 <ais523> they could rent the rest of it out...
13:50:44 <tusho> ais523: to be honest, their domain is del.icio.us
13:50:50 <tusho> they just had to do a hack to get that second dot
13:50:53 <tusho> anyway they use delicious.com now
13:50:57 <tusho> which is a shame, I liked that domain
13:52:11 * tusho wonders if he could murder the ephemera.org photographer and steal the domain
13:52:15 <tusho> (The murder is just for effect.)
13:52:29 <ais523> tusho: you'll have changed your mind about the domain name next week, though...
13:52:40 <tusho> ais523: why? :)
13:52:52 <ais523> I'm just extrapolating, I don't know the reason
13:53:13 <tusho> generally I'm so finnicky about domains  that htey last a while
13:53:21 <tusho> it's the whole money thing.
13:54:34 <tusho> heh
13:54:39 <tusho> http://pla.net/ <-- secret site!
13:55:10 <ais523> tusho: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme seems to have been updated again
13:55:17 <tusho> ais523: ESMESMesmes!!ESME
13:55:31 <tusho> wow
13:55:39 <ais523> the more I look at that the more I'm convinced it's an elaborate trolling attempt
13:55:40 <ais523> but I'm not sure
13:55:53 <tusho> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=veebeewiki&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
13:56:09 <ais523> what did you turn up?
13:56:21 <tusho> http://forums.webwizguide.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=22809
13:56:24 <tusho> I'm making some ASP.net wiki software called "VeeBeeWiki", which is looking pretty good so far. It'll probably be ready for download in another month or two.
13:56:26 <tusho> probably a coincidence
13:56:32 <ais523> yes, probably
13:56:34 <tusho> i mean, 'vb'
13:56:36 <tusho> visual basic
13:56:37 <tusho> duh=
13:56:45 <ais523> yes, that's the conclusion I jumped to
13:56:47 <tusho> haha
13:56:49 <ais523> so why would it require Perl?
13:56:51 <tusho> he forgot to remove the shameful category
13:56:52 <tusho> brilliant
13:57:18 <ais523> s/(.*)i/$1/
14:04:28 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:06:30 -!- Tritonio_ has quit ("Leaving").
14:07:01 <tusho> so, on the new subject of bad ideas: http://compilr.com/
14:07:51 <ais523> actually, I was thinking about something along those lines for INTERCAL
14:07:57 <ais523> a lot simpler though, upload source, download a binary
14:08:05 <tusho> well, ESO will have one for esolangs
14:08:07 <tusho> even so
14:08:09 <tusho> though
14:08:13 <tusho> it'll execute on _ESO's_ servers in our case
14:08:15 <ais523> or alternatively have it compiled into something that you could run over the Internet
14:08:19 <tusho> that is just stupid: you cannot trust the binaries
14:08:23 <tusho> to check them you have to have a compiler of your own
14:08:33 <ais523> well it depends on if you trust the sire
14:08:36 <ais523> s/sire/site/
14:08:42 <ais523> lots of people download and run random binaries
14:08:55 <ais523> hmm... maybe I should get C-INTERCAL to target JSMIPS somehow
14:09:03 <tusho> ais523: it can
14:09:07 <tusho> just compile the c ...
14:09:13 <ais523> yes, that's what I thought of doing
14:09:21 <ais523> the output may or may not need tweaking for the different OS
14:10:20 <tusho> ais523: seen https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=448604?
14:10:24 <tusho> it's great
14:10:40 <AnMaster> <ais523> the more I look at that the more I'm convinced it's an elaborate trolling attempt <-- I'm pretty sure that is the case
14:10:44 <tusho> the mozilla team got trapped by a rockslide
14:10:48 <tusho> so they filed a bug report
14:10:54 <AnMaster> after all it is totally impossible to implement the language from it
14:10:57 <ais523> that is actually correct
14:11:04 <ais523> and one of the few uses of the 'blocker' severity
14:11:11 <tusho> ais523: anyway
14:11:11 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6udge/mozilla_team_trapped_by_rockslide_in_whistler/c04w6pt
14:11:14 <ais523> which means 'we literally cannot do any work until this bug is fixed'
14:11:21 <tusho> hilariously idiotic comment
14:11:23 <ais523> that's why it's so rare
14:11:25 <pikhq> Good lord...
14:11:40 <tusho> they can do work ais523
14:11:41 <pikhq> 'Compilr' seems like one of the most stupid ideas I've ever heard.
14:11:47 <tusho> they obviously have a computer and an internet connection
14:11:57 <pikhq> Wouldn't be useful for anything with more than 1 file, it seems.
14:11:58 <tusho> and therefore can check in commits just fine
14:12:02 <ais523> yes, I suppose so
14:12:07 <ais523> unless they're at a cybercafe, say
14:12:15 <ais523> without access to anything that can compile the source
14:12:19 <tusho> ais523: compilr!
14:12:32 <pikhq> Ah; it has a full IDE.
14:12:41 <pikhq> Which makes it even more awful, IMO.
14:12:59 <ais523> I still think there should be an option to upload source and download binary, just make it clear that this isn't particularly trustworthy
14:13:07 <ais523> also to upload source and download source in a different language
14:13:07 <pikhq> Emacs > IDE.
14:13:08 <pikhq> ;p
14:13:16 <ais523> POSIX > IDE.
14:13:28 <ais523> as long as you have at least one decent editor
14:13:49 <ais523> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=448604#c35
14:13:52 <tusho> ais523: http://cm.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/emacs
14:14:01 <tusho> 'BUGS: Yes.'
14:14:12 <tusho> the vi(1) linked is also entirely unrelated
14:14:21 <AnMaster> ais523, what is Compilr?
14:14:26 <tusho> AnMaster: compilr.com
14:14:35 <ais523> AnMaster: from their FAQ, apparently an online compiler and IDE
14:14:45 <ais523> where you edit files Google Docs-style, then download the resulting executables
14:14:57 <ais523> "Vi simulates the execution of a MIPS binary in a Plan 9 environment."
14:15:05 <ais523> that'll really confuse people who expect it to be an editor...
14:15:08 -!- adu has joined.
14:15:16 <pikhq> ais523: Actually, ed > IDE.
14:15:17 <AnMaster> ais523, ehhehe?
14:15:19 <tusho> ais523:  i don't think plan9 was intended to be an easy switch
14:15:35 <AnMaster> ais523, that site seems insane?
14:15:41 <tusho> AnMaster: of course it is
14:15:42 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit).
14:15:45 <ais523> AnMaster: tusho, pikhq and I are all on agreement with you on that
14:15:55 <pikhq> :)
14:16:01 * ais523 notices that tusho and I agreed on something again
14:16:08 <ais523> must... disagree... with... tusho...
14:16:12 <ais523> actually, it's a great idea!
14:16:13 <tusho> ais523: I disagree.
14:16:16 <tusho> Why can't we just agree?
14:16:17 <ais523> now all we need is a version for Linux
14:16:34 <AnMaster> it is stupid
14:16:38 <ais523> tusho: because it would be a Harbinger of the End of the World
14:16:41 <AnMaster> and yes I agree with tusho on that
14:16:48 <tusho> ais523: you missed my joke
14:16:58 <ais523> tusho: no, I noticed it, just ignored it
14:16:59 <pikhq> Personally, I think that the end of the world should come.
14:17:02 <ais523> because it's funnier that way
14:17:02 <tusho> *g*
14:17:11 <ais523> pikhq: actually, I reckon that the end of the world was years ago
14:17:15 <tusho> ais523: i agree, it is funnier that way
14:17:21 <pikhq> *shrug*
14:17:35 <ais523> tusho: ...
14:17:38 <pikhq> Today's xkcd? Brilliant.
14:17:55 * pikhq solves that Rubik's cube.
14:17:56 <ais523> pikhq: what's it about? I think xkcd's somewhat patchy, sometimes it's excellent and other times it's boring
14:18:06 <tusho> ais523: title: Frustration
14:18:09 <tusho> img: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/frustration.png
14:18:11 <tusho> title text:
14:18:19 <tusho> 'Don't worry, I can do it in under a minute.' 'Yes, I've noticed.'
14:18:24 * tusho = ircxkcdbot
14:18:28 <ais523> alt text?
14:18:35 <ais523> oh, the same thing
14:18:36 <pikhq> tusho: Hi, Bucket.
14:18:37 <ais523> sorry
14:18:48 <ais523> I'm confused by overexposure to IE during my formative years
14:19:08 <ais523> luckily I learnt mostly the right subset of JScript despite only having Microsoft docs to rely on
14:19:21 <ais523> and a quick search-and-replace was enough to sort out the uses of document.all that had crept into my code
14:19:31 <tusho> the final innovation on xkcd will be a comic without images
14:19:43 <tusho> just a big coloured space saying "Hover over to read the title text."
14:19:52 <ais523> what would the title text be?
14:20:36 <pikhq> An image.
14:20:38 <pikhq> :p
14:21:02 <ais523> ok, that would be classic if there was some way to get browsers to support it
14:21:04 <tusho> ais523: it'd change each time!
14:21:07 <tusho> but yes, that would be fun
14:21:12 <tusho> you could just do it as a JS tooltip
14:21:21 <ais523> I thought of that
14:21:21 <tusho> how about images and text
14:21:23 <tusho> like
14:21:23 <tusho> little icons for the characters
14:21:24 <ais523> but then people like me wouldn't be able to read it
14:21:39 <tusho> ais523: then the title text would be "Please enable JavaScript to experience Comic 2.0"
14:22:42 <AnMaster> <ais523> pikhq: what's it about? I think xkcd's somewhat patchy, sometimes it's excellent and other times it's boring <-- agreed
14:22:53 <AnMaster> userfriendly.org is quite a good comic btw
14:23:04 <pikhq> xkcd's sometimes patchy, but I find that it's always worth checking.
14:23:05 <tusho> userfriendly is awful
14:23:11 <tusho> really, truly awful
14:23:19 <tusho> same 15 jokes for over ten years
14:23:25 <tusho> and a third of them are funny
14:23:33 <pikhq> Userfriendly: sometimes funny, but typically mundane.
14:23:38 <pikhq> Still check it, though.
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14:24:35 <tusho> also you'd think he'd get better at drawing over 10 years
14:24:49 <tusho> but no, it's still awfully drawn with choppy lines
14:25:44 <pikhq> Ubersoft?
14:25:59 <tusho> Never heard of it.
14:26:09 <ais523> I've heard of it but can't remember what it is
14:26:21 <tusho> Seems to be Yet Another Tech Comic.
14:26:22 <tusho> Yawn.
14:27:39 <tusho> [[Endorsements / "Desperately Unfunny." / "The artwork is lame and repetitive, the 'jokes' are either inside software industry jokes or thinly disguised anti-capitalist rantings." / "Are there really 80 people who find any reference to Microsoft in a web comic funny?" / "Why has this been running since 1996? Who actually reads it? Who is the idiot who reads it every day and posts the 'good' ones up on reddit? Doesn't he realize he is wasting his time?"]]
14:27:47 <tusho> the best form of posting criticism on your site as if they're endorsements
14:27:50 <tusho> is when they're totally right.
14:30:46 <tusho> ais523: i've been thinking about copyleft
14:31:01 <ais523> interesting, what conclusions did you come to?
14:31:16 <tusho> i want people to have the right to restrict rights, but I don't want hippies to have the right to take away the rights mentioned in this sentence by using the GPL or similar
14:31:17 <tusho> :P
14:31:32 <tusho> i guess the only solution is a kind of pseudo-copyleft
14:31:39 * ais523 's head spins
14:32:01 * tusho follows ais523's head spinning with his eyes
14:32:03 <tusho> whe
14:32:06 <tusho> *whee
14:32:44 <ais523> the fundamental problem with all copyrighting schemes is that one person's right to do anything is incompatible with another person's right to do anything
14:32:53 <ais523> so you have to restrict something somewhere to avoid a contradiction
14:33:17 <tusho> ais523: but on the other hand I'm fine with people using my crap in commercial software
14:33:20 <tusho> and not releasing their modifications
14:33:28 <tusho> because I have given them the right to do that
14:34:18 <pikhq> tusho: I'm not.
14:34:27 <ais523> well, whether that should be allowable or not rather depends on the software, for instance something I'm doing at the moment is attempting to recompile the shareware GPL compiler I told you about a while ago to make it freeware again
14:34:27 <tusho> pikhq: and you are not me
14:34:36 <pikhq> Mostly because I think everyone should have the right to change whatever software is on their system.
14:34:44 <tusho> yes, I don't
14:34:44 <ais523> it's kind of complicated because the sources they gave don't obviously correspond to the binaries
14:34:50 <ais523> or at least the build system doesn't
14:34:51 <tusho> this is about my software and what I want it to be done with
14:35:01 <AnMaster> ais523, shareware gpl compiler?
14:35:03 <AnMaster> ais523, link?
14:35:03 <pikhq> Of course, this issue of what rights should apply to software is kinda complicated, since it seems kinda. . . Undecided.
14:35:20 <pikhq> ais523: Shareware GPL?
14:35:27 <ais523> AnMaster: there isn't a straightforward link to it, it's behind several links and ⁎⁡*⁕⁑⁢⁂⁎-protected entries on microchip.com
14:35:29 <tusho> I want to allow people to be able to, say, distribute my software commercially with modifications without releasing it. But I don't want people to be able to make changes under the GPL so that the people mentioned in the previous sentence can't do that, really.
14:35:34 <ais523> as in, you have to register an account to download it
14:35:40 <AnMaster> ais523, tell us about it then
14:35:50 <AnMaster> ais523, what is it for?
14:35:50 <pikhq> tusho: Then you want the impossible.
14:36:01 <tusho> pikhq: No, that's actually pretty possible (I think)
14:36:04 <ais523> pikhq: AnMaster: basically a microcontroller manufacturer went and rewrote gcc to target their own product
14:36:06 <tusho> it'd just be very awkward wordin
14:36:06 <tusho> g
14:36:08 <tusho> and probably falwed
14:36:10 <tusho> *flawed
14:36:14 <ais523> then put a shareware restriction on it
14:36:16 <pikhq> Give me a non-copyleft license, and I can add copyleft to it.
14:36:16 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I know what microchip is
14:36:22 <ais523> then released the resulting code and binaries under the GPL
14:36:25 <AnMaster> ais523, don't they make the PIC*?
14:36:27 <ais523> the binaries being shareware
14:36:29 <ais523> AnMaster: that's it
14:36:35 <tusho> pikhq: Which is why I said it'd have to be pseudo-copyleft.
14:36:35 <AnMaster> I programmed PIC12F629 once
14:36:36 <AnMaster> in asm
14:36:44 <AnMaster> ais523, was fun writing the serial interrupt stuff
14:36:48 <pikhq> ais523: Contact the Software Freedom Law Center, please.
14:36:49 <ais523> AnMaster: so have I, except I normally use the PIC12F628
14:36:53 <pikhq> Oh, and the FSF.
14:36:53 <tusho> pikhq: it's legal
14:36:54 <ais523> pikhq: it's legal AFAICT
14:36:59 <pikhq> How?!?
14:37:03 <AnMaster> ais523, ah maybe it was 628, not sure, 62x anyway
14:37:04 <tusho> pikhq: You can sell GPL software.
14:37:05 <tusho> Didn't you know?
14:37:07 <pikhq> Yes.
14:37:10 <AnMaster> ais523, it was a few years ago
14:37:13 <ais523> because there's nothing to stop you editing out the sharewareness and recompiling
14:37:22 <ais523> except the fact that the build system doesn't work all that well
14:37:32 <pikhq> The sharewareness is in the source code itself?
14:37:35 <ais523> yep
14:37:36 <pikhq> Well, then.
14:37:40 <pikhq> That's stupid.
14:37:42 <ais523> it's even controlled by a #define
14:37:43 <pikhq> Legal, but stupid.
14:37:55 <ais523> atm I reverse-engineered it to simply fake a valid licence
14:38:01 <ais523> which is very easy with the source code installed
14:38:17 <ais523> but I'm not 100% sure that the result of that can be redistributed, so instead I want to recompile without the check for a licence
14:38:21 <AnMaster> ais523, which chip is that compiler for?
14:38:31 <ais523> the 16-bit dsPIC ranges
14:38:33 <tusho> pikhq: Out of curiosity. Say I had written some non-copyleft software (say BSD3 or MIT) and you made some big changes to it. Would you license your changes under the GPL or keep my license?
14:38:34 <AnMaster> ah
14:38:40 <AnMaster> ais523, those are DSPs?
14:38:44 <ais523> yes
14:38:53 <pikhq> tusho: I'd keep it under the BSD license.
14:39:00 <tusho> pikhq: Good, at least we agree there
14:39:10 <pikhq> I merely disagree that the BSD license is the *best* free software license...
14:39:15 <ais523> tusho: it would depend on what my changes were
14:39:28 <AnMaster> tusho, I would also keep current license, unless all I did was reuse, say. a 10 line function from you in an existing 2000 line GPL program
14:39:28 <pikhq> Which is by no means justification for a fork.
14:39:28 <tusho> ais523: Unless you were linking to a GPL'd library...
14:39:41 <ais523> tusho: or I was using your program as a library in a GPL program
14:39:44 <tusho> Of course.
14:39:47 <ais523> which is possibly even more likely
14:39:48 <AnMaster> tusho, but if I reused more than just a few lines I would keep your license
14:39:49 <tusho> But you know what I meant.
14:40:09 <ais523> tusho: I never assume that
14:40:11 <tusho> anyway, can we all agree on something else license-related: djb is pretty much an idiot regarding his position on licenses
14:40:18 <ais523> or never ought to anyway
14:40:19 <AnMaster> aye
14:40:21 <ais523> tusho: djb?
14:40:22 <AnMaster> tusho, he is
14:40:25 <tusho> ais523: daniel j bernstein
14:40:25 <pikhq> Changing the license, unless you have a *really* good reason for it, is just plain stupid, IMO.
14:40:30 <AnMaster> ais523, author of qmail and djbdns
14:40:31 <tusho> basically he doesn't provide a license
14:40:34 <tusho> just a copyright note
14:40:37 <tusho> and argues that you can still change it
14:40:42 <AnMaster> tusho, they are public domain now
14:40:47 <tusho> AnMaster: only some
14:40:55 <tusho> http://cr.yp.to/softwarelaw.html <-- the specific idiocy
14:40:57 <AnMaster> tusho, qmail and djbdns are iirc
14:41:05 <AnMaster> tusho, which is all I use from him
14:41:14 <ais523> I think it might be interesting to write a license which was in fact an esoprogram
14:41:17 <ais523> but in lawyerspeak
14:41:21 <ais523> a sort of lawyer-IRP
14:41:38 <AnMaster> hahah :D
14:41:56 <tusho> jesus, this ubersoft comic sucks
14:42:08 <ais523> then why are you still reading it?
14:42:16 <tusho> ais523: it's amusingly bad
14:42:41 <pikhq> Did you start from the start or something?
14:42:51 <tusho> Yes.
14:42:54 <pikhq> Ah.
14:43:08 <pikhq> That was, IIRC, '95.
14:43:14 <tusho> 96.
14:43:18 <AnMaster> I read xkcd, userfriendly and http://www.darthsanddroids.net
14:43:20 <pikhq> I was a year off.
14:43:44 <AnMaster> I did read dm of the rings before it completed
14:44:42 <pikhq> I read xkcd, User Friendly, Ubersoft, Saturday Morning Breakfast Comics, Cyanide & Happiness, PvP, Ctrl-Alt-Del, If-Then-Else, Dresden Codak, Penny Arcade, Simulated Comic Product, GPF, and Subnormality.
14:45:00 * pikhq = webcomic fan. :p
14:45:11 <tusho> cyanide & happiness is probably one of the worst webcomics online today that is popular
14:45:24 <pikhq> (note: I only read Ctrl-Alt-Del out of morbid curiosity, not out of enjoyment now)
14:45:27 <AnMaster> tusho, I agree
14:45:32 <pikhq> tusho: CAD is worse.
14:45:37 <pikhq> By orders of magnitude.
14:45:43 <AnMaster> there is just one CAD I liked
14:45:48 <tusho> there are a few funny c&h, but not enough to warrant a whole comic
14:45:57 <AnMaster> the one with "call xxxx-not-l33t"
14:46:02 <AnMaster> if you know what one I mean
14:46:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, what is if-then-else?
14:46:32 <pikhq> ifthenelse.comicgen.com
14:46:38 <pikhq> Done by a friend of mine.
14:46:50 <tusho> I always wanted to make a comic about lifeforms in GoL
14:47:53 <pikhq> I also used to read Minus (before it stopped).
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14:56:22 <tusho> apache needs to be able to AddHandler a cgi
14:56:31 <tusho> (so that it gets the file as argv[1] of course)
14:57:01 <tusho> AddHandler /crazyformat-to-html .crazyformat
15:03:43 <pikhq> Argh; I also forgot to mention that I read VGcats.
15:04:00 <pikhq> (you know, the video game comic with an update schedule almost as bad as Dresden Codak's?)
15:04:21 <pikhq> Bleck; I read a lot of comics.
15:04:38 <pikhq> Every few minutes I think of another one that I read.
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15:30:50 <tusho> http://blog.last.fm/2008/08/01/quality-control
15:31:05 <tusho> bears!
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15:39:27 <pikhq> "DHS Allowed to Take Laptops Indefinitely"
15:39:53 <pikhq> Huh. There goes another amendment in the Bill of Rights.
15:40:54 <pikhq> All laptops going through the DHS should have all drives on them encrypted, IMO.
15:41:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, what is DHS?
15:41:34 <pikhq> Department of Homeland Security.
15:41:35 <tusho> AnMaster: department of homeland security
15:41:54 <ais523> oh for a moment I thought pikhq was referring to the parcel company
15:41:55 <tusho> True upholders of freedom.
15:42:08 <AnMaster> har
15:42:17 <pikhq> A more appropriate name is the Department of Searchs and Seizures Without Warrent.
15:42:17 <AnMaster> ais523, same here
15:42:24 <AnMaster> yeah
15:42:25 <pikhq> s/Warrent/Warrant/
15:42:26 <AnMaster> horrible
15:42:28 <tusho> pikhq: For Your Security.
15:42:36 <pikhq> Welcome to the police state.
15:42:49 <ais523> it's pointless anyway
15:42:51 <tusho> Not like the UK isn't going that way, either...
15:43:06 <AnMaster> same in Sweden too
15:43:09 <AnMaster> :(
15:43:10 <ais523> because anyone with valuable data can simply store it on a server somewhere and transport a blank laptop across the border
15:43:27 <ais523> then get the data back from the server over the Internet using scp or something like that
15:43:31 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah
15:43:43 <tusho> ais523: Logic? You must be a terrorist.
15:43:48 <tusho> I'm afraid we'll have to do a full body search.
15:44:01 <ais523> but that wouldn't turn up anything either
15:44:13 <ais523> besides the people with the biggest problems with this are apparently businesspeople
15:44:17 <tusho> Hmm.
15:44:20 <ais523> who often store trade secrets on their laptops
15:44:24 <tusho> That would be a strange porn plot.
15:44:35 <pikhq> Jebus.
15:44:46 <pikhq> The DHS can take 'anything that can hold analog or digital information'.
15:44:55 <tusho> pikhq: So, what, everything.
15:45:02 <pikhq> Everything.
15:45:10 <pikhq> Legally, they could even take your flesh.
15:45:22 <tusho> Okay, NOW it's a strange porn plot.
15:45:59 <AnMaster> tusho, huh? you are just 12 and shouldn't know about that ;P
15:46:08 <ais523> pikhq: or your brain
15:46:08 <tusho> Oh shut up AnMaster.
15:46:09 <pikhq> If only Amtrak were more usable.
15:46:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, Amtrak?
15:46:35 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak
15:46:36 <pikhq> The American passenger train system.
15:46:46 <pikhq> Which has like 3 lines that are actually useful...
15:46:47 <AnMaster> ah
15:46:51 <AnMaster> weird
15:47:12 <AnMaster> we got quite good trains here in Sweden
15:47:46 <pikhq> Basically, our train system and mass transit systems have been shut down by auto manufacturers and the Federal Highway Commission.
15:47:49 <tusho> AnMaster: HAVE
15:47:56 <AnMaster> tusho, sorry...
15:48:06 <tusho> :p
15:48:12 <pikhq> Basically, our country has been screwed over by our government.
15:48:23 <tusho> pikhq: Zomg!1111.
15:48:26 <AnMaster> Why didn't I *get* it right this time!
15:48:27 <tusho> Breaking news.
15:48:36 <tusho> AnMaster: ITYM '?'
15:48:40 <tusho> '!' denotes an exclamation.
15:48:45 <AnMaster> "ITYM"?
15:48:48 <tusho> I Think You Mean.
15:48:52 <AnMaster> tusho, ok should be !?
15:48:54 <AnMaster> or ?!
15:49:03 <tusho> AnMaster: or ‽
15:49:08 <ais523> <tusho> ITYM '?' <AnMaster> "ITYM"?
15:49:09 <AnMaster> err what is that?
15:49:17 <tusho> AnMaster: Interrobang.
15:49:21 <ais523> if only you'd used the same sort of quote mark...
15:49:22 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrobang
15:49:24 <AnMaster> tusho, err?
15:49:37 <AnMaster> looks like a fuzzy ? in this font
15:49:44 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrobang
15:49:48 <ais523> it's a cross between ? and !
15:54:26 <tusho> ais523: hmm
15:54:28 <tusho> should I keep the current
15:54:41 * ais523 waits for the end of the sentence
15:54:45 <tusho> plugin :name => "description" do
15:54:47 <tusho>   author "foo"
15:54:50 <tusho>   version "bar"
15:54:53 <tusho>   command (ETC)
15:54:53 <tusho> end
15:54:55 <tusho> OR
15:55:00 <AnMaster> oh god
15:55:02 <tusho> should I remove the toplevel 'plugin' and do:
15:55:03 <AnMaster> just code it...
15:55:05 <tusho> name :name
15:55:09 <tusho> description "description"
15:55:09 <tusho> ...
15:55:11 <tusho> command (ETC)
15:55:19 <tusho> i mean, arguably the whole block is redundant
15:55:23 <AnMaster> tusho, one thing you *should* add is API version
15:55:27 <AnMaster> like plugin API
15:55:31 <tusho> AnMaster: no.
15:55:42 <AnMaster> so if you change it in future you can have backward/forward compatiblity
15:55:50 <AnMaster> compatibility
15:55:54 <tusho> AnMaster: no.
15:56:00 <AnMaster> tusho, why not+
15:56:04 <AnMaster> s/+/?/
15:56:07 <tusho> it's pointless
15:56:12 <AnMaster> tusho, why?
15:56:13 <tusho> whenever I change the api I change all the plugins
15:56:20 <tusho> and nobody else will write a plugin apart from maybe ais523.
15:56:28 <tusho> and even then it'll probably go in the repository
15:56:31 <tusho> and thus updated when the api does.
15:56:31 <AnMaster> tusho, I might, just to annoy you
15:56:36 <tusho> AnMaster: then I'll let it break.
15:56:50 <AnMaster> tusho, envbot interface plugin XD
15:59:01 <tusho> ais523: thoughts?
15:59:31 <ais523> tusho: invent an entirely different format for the plugins and then convert it into tusho-format-of-the-week with m4
15:59:36 <tusho> heh
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15:59:50 <tusho> I didn't offer a third option
15:59:51 <tusho> :)
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16:04:17 <tusho> hmm
16:04:23 <tusho> ff3.1a awesomebar has wildcards
16:04:25 <tusho> i want regexps
16:04:56 <ais523> I like the awesomebar actually
16:05:03 <tusho> yes
16:05:05 <ais523> some people don't because they type the start of the URL
16:05:06 <tusho> but I want regexps in it too
16:05:12 <tusho> instead of just wildcards
16:05:16 <ais523> but I've got used to being able to type slr and flr and get the appropriate pages
16:05:49 <AnMaster> awesomebar?
16:05:56 <tusho> AnMaster: firefox 3 location bar
16:06:06 <tusho> location/history/bookmark searcher all in one
16:06:08 <AnMaster> <ais523> some people don't because they type the start of the URL
16:06:15 <AnMaster> well I normally type or copy the url
16:06:20 <AnMaster> what do you mean then?
16:06:26 <ais523> if you type the whole URL it works the same way as all other browsers
16:06:42 <AnMaster> ais523, and if you type the start it tab completes I hope?
16:06:45 <ais523> but if you type a few letters, FF3 searches your bookmarks and the URLs and titles of recently visited websites
16:06:46 <AnMaster> if not I will hate it
16:06:49 <ais523> and it does tab-complete I think
16:06:55 <tusho> AnMaster
16:07:05 <AnMaster> if it works as in ff2 I will be happy
16:07:06 <ais523> yes it does, just tested
16:07:07 <tusho> AnMaster
16:07:11 <AnMaster> tusho, yes?
16:07:25 <tusho> AnMaster
16:07:30 <AnMaster> tusho, yes?
16:07:32 <AnMaster> .............
16:07:39 <ais523> many people think it's different from FF2, but in my experience I can do everything with it I could before, and more
16:08:06 -!- tusho has left (?).
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16:08:25 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-").
16:08:39 <ais523> tusho: ???
16:08:39 <AnMaster> wtf is up with tusho?
16:08:43 -!- tusho has joined.
16:08:47 <AnMaster> first weird highlights
16:08:50 <AnMaster> then odd part and quit
16:08:51 <AnMaster> wtf
16:08:57 <tusho> irc client fuckup
16:08:57 <ais523> it looked the same here too
16:08:59 <tusho> anyway
16:09:06 <tusho> AnMaster: it doesn't just complete on prefixes
16:09:23 <tusho> if you have a page titled Foo djsdfksdfsdf Baz in your history, and not anything else with thatm iddle word
16:09:26 <tusho> and you type that middle word
16:09:28 <tusho> and tab complete
16:09:31 <tusho> it'll fill in the url for that page
16:09:44 <tusho> also 'foo bar baz quux' would be matched by 'bar quux'
16:09:51 <AnMaster> I want it complete on urls
16:10:07 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, because inferior software is cooler
16:10:07 <AnMaster> oh btw I'm still of FF2.x
16:10:24 <tusho> it completes on urls too
16:10:32 <tusho> but it completes anywhere in the URL, not just the start
16:10:38 <tusho> and it also completes on page titles etc
16:11:14 <AnMaster> sigh, pointless features
16:11:18 <tusho> pointless?
16:11:19 <tusho> wtf
16:11:25 <AnMaster> firefox is just getting more and more bloated all the time
16:11:25 <ais523> I find it pretty useful
16:11:31 <tusho> yeah, I so love not being able to get to pages really quickly and easily
16:11:34 <ais523> but there really ought to be two firefoxes
16:11:38 <tusho> it's totally hardcore to go diggin for it
16:11:39 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
16:11:42 <ais523> one that's very stripped down, and one that's bloated
16:11:47 <AnMaster> ais523, good!
16:11:59 <tusho> because, you know what? I just love unusable software that can't find things quickly for me.
16:12:02 <AnMaster> ais523, or another idea
16:12:04 <tusho> Who cares about finding things? pffft.
16:12:06 <tusho> Pussies.
16:12:10 <ais523> then we can both be happy
16:12:19 <AnMaster> ais523, what about a kernel like config?
16:12:24 <AnMaster> where you can select each feature
16:12:27 <AnMaster> as you want
16:12:36 <ais523> well, maybe they could do that with extensions
16:12:44 <ais523> have a very simple browser, and everything else is extensions
16:12:54 <AnMaster> good idea
16:12:58 <tusho> i love how AnMaster calls finding things quickly and easily "bloat", though
16:13:05 <tusho> i have your new browser AnMaster - I call it 'telnet'.
16:13:13 <tusho> It has absolutely no tools for finding things.
16:17:48 <AnMaster> tusho, it is not a useful feature to me, being able to select a word and google for it is however
16:18:02 <tusho> you cannot pass judgement on that until you try it
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17:06:45 <tusho> ais523: you'll be pleased to know that i'm implementing botte no
17:06:46 <tusho> w
17:06:54 <tusho> and sometime today I hope to have the link log up and running
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18:19:39 <tusho> ais523: do you think every handler should boil down to a regexp and a closure?
18:19:43 <tusho> it seems like the best, and easiest way to do it
18:19:55 <ais523> possibly, that's how bsmnt_bot did it
18:20:16 <tusho> it's how all of my bots have done it, really
18:24:08 <tusho> ais523: do you think it needs hooks for each part of the bot code (that is, [[yield_to_plugins :startup]] or whatever) or just handlers for irc stuff?
18:24:11 <tusho> I think the latter should be fine
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19:14:04 <tusho> meanwhile, I typo'd while typing "tpyos"
19:16:34 <tusho> yay
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21:01:16 <ihope> So, who's going to write the Proce interpreter? :-)
21:01:33 <lament> where's the spec?
21:01:53 <lament> and what does it do? generate sound?
21:02:04 <ihope> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Proce, I imagine.
21:02:15 <ihope> It can generate sound if you listen to one of the signals.
21:02:49 <lament> oh, i didn't realize it was an esolang
21:02:51 -!- pikhq has left (?).
21:04:25 <lament> mm
21:04:43 <lament> sin = i!(1 - i!sin)
21:04:52 <lament> something is horribly wrong about that definition.
21:05:16 <ihope> Be more specific.
21:05:23 <lament> i can't tell
21:06:39 <lament> how does it know the value of sin at 0?
21:13:27 <lament> i don't get how it works at all.. nor lowpass :(
21:13:44 <lament> shouldn't lowpass have a cutoff constant in it somewhere? where does it go?
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21:28:58 <lament> poke
21:29:12 <tusho> lament: poke
21:29:15 <tusho> ihope-ing
21:29:22 <ihope> Mm?
21:29:34 <lament> ihope: answer my multitudinous questions
21:29:46 <ihope> lament: it's a definite integral. At 0, it's the integral from 0 to 0, which tends to be 0.
21:29:54 <lament> with clarity, dignity and poise
21:30:25 <ihope> What's the definition of the low pass filter?
21:30:32 <ihope> The one on the page?
21:30:56 <lament> yes
21:31:03 <lament> low = i!(sig - low)
21:31:28 <ihope> This has a cutoff constant thing: low = k*i!(sig - low)
21:32:00 <ihope> Excuse me for a split second.
21:33:22 <lament> oh
21:33:26 <lament> i know nothing about dsp :(
21:33:42 <ihope> What's that?
21:33:52 <lament> digital signal processing?
21:34:02 <lament> so how would one, mm, implement this
21:34:13 <ihope> Oh. I thought digital signal processing was stuff like compression and digital error correction.
21:34:15 <lament> seems a bit tricky
21:34:40 <ihope> One would implement this using a floating point variable or so for every signal and every integral.
21:35:04 <ihope> If you differentiate something, use a variable for now and a variable for one step ago so that you'll be able to calculate the derivative.
21:35:19 <lament> if you just do that, all the errors would add up and it'd be all over the place.
21:35:34 <lament> (but on the plus side, it's easy)
21:35:41 <ihope> That's what error correction is for.
21:35:51 <lament> for error correction you need quite a bit more than that.
21:36:35 <SimonRC> maybe one can write a symbolic integrator for those restricted cases?
21:37:15 <lament> or simply have the interpreter go on the mathworld integrator website :)
21:37:28 <ihope> As the sampling rate approaches infinity, the interpreter will approach perfection.
21:37:54 <ihope> Assuming it uses arbitrary-precision floating points or something, which make things really ugly, in fact.
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21:38:15 <lament> yes, but sampling rate doesn't actually approach infinity.
21:38:29 <lament> this is solving differential equations
21:38:36 <ihope> 44100Hz is close enough to infinity that we can't hear the difference, at least.
21:38:48 <lament> ihope: for the first couple of seconds, at least
21:39:23 <lament> i had a course on just this subject, don't remember much already
21:39:28 <ihope> If you're going to write an actual program in this, you'll want to make small errors not matter anyway.
21:40:10 <ihope> I think you can make a signal that's -1 when another signal is negative, 1 when it's positive.
21:40:18 <lament> not sure how you'd use it for "progarmming"
21:40:50 <lament> seems more interesting for music generation...
21:41:09 <ihope> And things like pianos aren't fragile: the noise from air molecules hitting strings randomly doesn't cause them to make random horrible noise.
21:41:15 <lament> implementing a piano in this would be tricky :)
21:41:28 <ihope> Help me, then! :-)
21:42:18 <ihope> sin = i!(1 - i!sin) goes at 1 Hz. Make it go at 440.
21:43:01 <ihope> Actually, make that sin = i!i!sin, since we're probably going to pluck the integrals anyway.
21:43:31 <ihope> Unless you actually want to try to control it using one input signal.
21:44:10 <ihope> I like the challenge of that, actually. :-P
21:44:14 <lament> sin = i!i!sin = zero function
21:44:30 <ihope> Not if you set the integrals in the middle of execution.
21:44:58 <ihope> So let's have a "sndin" signal that functions as input. You hit a string by... being clever.
21:45:48 <ihope> I guess in real life, you don't play a piano by putting a speaker next to it and playing piano sounds into the speaker. You play it by pressing keys.
21:45:58 <ihope> So let's have a "key pressed" signal for every key.
21:47:21 <ihope> Damp each string or not based on whether the signal is 1 or not; pluck them based on the derivative of the signal.
21:48:53 <ihope> ...well, damp it a lot when the signal is 0, damp it a little when it's 1.
21:48:57 <lament> this is too complicated :)
21:49:03 <ihope> aivhi = i!i!aivhi and you have a string that vibrates at 1 Hz. We want it to vibrate at 440 Hz instead.
21:49:31 <ihope> aivhi = 440*400*i!i!aivhi?
21:49:50 <ihope> It is absolutely not too complicated. :-)
21:50:43 <AnMaster> oh?
21:50:45 <AnMaster> what are you doing?
21:50:52 <ihope> Writing a piano in Proce.
21:50:58 <AnMaster> Proce?
21:51:08 <ihope> My analog signal processing esolang.
21:51:31 <lament> ihope: making it sound like a piano mostly involves tweaking a lot and a lot of stuff, though.
21:51:33 <AnMaster> wow
21:51:34 <AnMaster> wtf
21:51:38 <AnMaster> ihope, got specs?
21:51:41 <AnMaster> I'd like to read them
21:51:45 <ihope> AnMaster: on the wiki.
21:52:02 <ihope> lament: indeed. That being the case, I don't want it to sound exactly like a piano. :-)
21:52:41 <lament> otherwise it's pretty boring
21:53:12 <lament> you create a bunch of frequencies, then you damp them with different profiles
21:53:37 <lament> not that i have any idea how to do any of that in Proce
21:55:02 <AnMaster> ihope, what functions exist
21:55:09 <AnMaster> the wiki page only mentions sin()
21:55:27 <AnMaster> ihope, and what are d! r! and i!?
21:55:29 <ihope> So, aivhi = 440*440*i!i!aivhi is a 440 Hz oscillator. We want it to resonate, so we add a constant times the "sound" signal, and we want it to damp, so we subtract a constant times its integral, I think.
21:56:03 <ihope> AnMaster: there are no functions in existence already; you have to define your own. d!, r! and i! differentiate, rectify (chop out all the negative bits) and integrate, respectively.
21:56:21 <AnMaster> ihope, so how is sin() defined?
21:56:26 <ihope> Recursively.
21:56:43 <AnMaster> ihope, is it part of the standard library ;P
21:57:05 <ihope> AnMaster: include it at the top of all your programs, if you want.
21:58:51 <AnMaster> heh
22:00:41 <ihope> I can think of a useful extension.
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22:03:30 <ihope> Definitions such as low(sig) = i!(sig - low(sig)), so that you don't need to define a new low-pass filter for every signal.
22:03:42 <ihope> And it'd be evaluated at compile time, so Don't Get Any Ideas.
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22:09:04 <ihope> I imagine a post-digital age, when artificial intelligence methods are used to simulate digital processing on analog machines.
22:09:20 <lament> starting tomorrow.
22:09:58 <SimonRC> ihope: sounds silly
22:10:08 <pikhq> ihope: Sounds infinitely recursive.
22:10:13 <SimonRC> analog systems are not known for being good at simulating digital ones
22:12:00 <tusho> ihope: I have a name for it. Shteam-schmeam-punk.
22:12:09 <tusho> Wait, no. Steam-schmeam-punk.
22:17:09 <lament> Schemepunk
22:17:55 <moozilla> hey all
22:18:39 <moozilla> i want to make an esolang based on the concept of emergence
22:18:56 <moozilla> but im not sure how i would do so
22:19:01 <ihope> SimonRC: isn't the universe pretty much analog anyway?
22:19:27 <SimonRC> and it is with extreme inefficiency that we get it to do digital things
22:19:38 <ihope> SimonRC: and that's why we should embrace the analogness of it all.
22:20:05 <SimonRC> that can be tricky
22:20:14 <SimonRC> depends on what you mean by "analogue"
22:20:22 <ihope> That's why we should use artificial intelligence to do it for us. :-)
22:20:25 <moozilla> not black/white
22:20:26 <lament> moozilla: you mean like game of life, or you mean like any language with functions in it?
22:20:48 <ihope> moozilla: sounds very difficult but very interesting. :-)
22:21:04 <ihope> Well, I guess things like Conway's Game of Life aren't "very difficult".
22:21:07 <moozilla> i mean any language
22:21:16 <moozilla> im not too familiar with the game of life
22:21:49 <moozilla> i'm envisioning something where there are symbols and the code 'emerges' from how they are laid out
22:23:12 * ihope nods gently
22:29:40 <lament> moozilla: sounds like programming
22:30:23 <moozilla> heh that was sort of an ambiguous way of putting it
22:31:09 <moozilla> my goal is to make the actual code the hardest to find thing
22:32:04 <ihope> You mean the "actual code" is hard to find given what you feed to the implementation?
22:32:14 <ihope> Or given what you want the program to do?
22:32:30 <lament> moozilla: sounds like programming in Brainfuck.
22:33:05 <moozilla> what the program actual does
22:33:10 <moozilla> actually*
22:33:32 <lament> have you looked at brainfuck... or, say, assembly?
22:33:37 <moozilla> yes :P
22:33:49 <moozilla> brainfuck is fairly obvious though
22:35:19 <moozilla> "In philosophy, systems theory and the sciences, emergence is the way complex systems and patterns arise out of a multiplicity of relatively simple interactions."
22:35:42 <ihope> Oh, I think I know what you mean.
22:35:50 <moozilla> i want the code to be the "side-effects"
22:35:55 <moozilla> if that makes sense
22:36:20 <ihope> The same way that in the Real World, life is a "side-effect" of the laws of physics?
22:36:30 <pikhq> Tricky.
22:36:42 <moozilla> ihope: exactly
22:37:05 <ihope> Excuse me for a moment while I tinker with scales.
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22:39:38 <SimonRC> ihope: well, excuse me while I scale with tinkers
22:41:20 <SimonRC> moozilla: Isn't that like looking for a way to get rid of fractions from a system of numbers that has a multiplicative inverse.
22:41:31 <SimonRC> or trying to invent a better sort of integer?
22:41:37 <moozilla> i'm not sure :P
22:41:48 <moozilla> it sounds like it'd be cool to me
22:42:10 <ihope> moozilla: I agree.
22:42:30 <moozilla> i just can't think of a way to implement it
22:46:51 * ihope continues calculating his scale
22:50:32 <ihope> It would be semi-tragic if Notepad were to crash right now.
22:50:50 <tusho> ihope: Ctrl-s
22:51:16 <ihope> Buena idea.
22:52:45 <lament> Buen.
22:53:16 <lament> oh wait, i'm wrong
22:53:18 <lament> buena.
22:54:48 <moozilla> Heh
22:54:49 <moozilla> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Primordial
22:54:59 <moozilla> this is sort of what i was thinking about
22:55:08 <ihope> The intervals from C, according to Scala: unison, septimal neutral second, major whole tone, septimal minor third, major third, perfect fourth, septimal tritone, perfect fifth, septimal minor sixth, major sixth, harmonic seventh, classic major seventh, octave.
22:55:35 <ihope> With septimal intervals for maximum harmonic content, of course.
22:56:10 <lament> moozilla: sounds like a more complicated version of game of life.
22:56:42 <moozilla> more complicated is always good :)
22:56:52 <ihope> Sounds like a zero-player version of Go, actually.
22:56:55 <lament> yes, but doesn't necessarily lead to any... emergent properties :)
22:57:18 <ihope> And we all know that a zero-player version of Go is the Ultimate Goal of Humanity.
22:58:51 <lament> zero player version of go sounds really boring
22:59:05 <lament> the game ends right away because there are no players who haven't passed!
23:00:21 <SimonRC> but you can't end there, as there is undecided territory
23:00:41 <lament> you can end at any time
23:00:59 <lament> and it's not undecided
23:01:07 <lament> it's dame
23:01:13 <lament> nobody's
23:02:43 <ihope> s/version/variant/
23:02:47 <ihope> Nitpicker :-P
23:04:50 <moozilla> that's a good idea
23:05:06 <moozilla> an esolang based on the game of Go
23:05:23 <ihope> Hmm. Turns out that in this scale of mine, all the black keys are flat to a significant degree except for CD, which is sharp by over half a semitone.
23:06:00 <ihope> Not to mention that it's a complicated 35/32 interval away from unison.
23:06:10 <lament> sounds painful to hear
23:06:42 <ihope> That particular note, yes.
23:07:44 <ihope> Luckily, it's the fourth key to be flattened, if you're flattening. It's the second key to be sharpened.
23:08:06 * ihope listens to major chords
23:08:34 <SimonRC> how are you doing that?
23:08:40 <ihope> Scala.
23:09:04 <lament> i knew that haskell wannabe was useful for something
23:09:22 <lament> by the way, tinkering with scales and tunings is for complete losers and nutjobs.
23:09:58 <ihope> All the major chords with white tonics sound pretty good, except for E, which has C#.
23:09:59 <tusho> and scala users
23:09:59 <tusho> oh wait
23:10:01 <tusho> I repeated myself
23:10:04 <tusho> no, wait
23:10:05 <tusho> I repeated lament
23:10:08 <ihope> :-P
23:10:23 <ihope> I think nobody uses Scala except people who tinker with scales and tunings.
23:10:29 <SimonRC> scala is more of an OCaml wannabe, surely?
23:10:52 <SimonRC> ihope: is that the FP-for-the-JVM one?
23:11:01 <ihope> SimonRC: I have no idea.
23:11:16 <tusho> SimonRC: yes it is
23:11:18 <tusho> oh wait
23:11:20 <ihope> You're not thinking I'm referring to a programming language called Scala, are you?
23:11:24 <tusho> ihope: yes, we were.
23:11:26 <SimonRC> yes
23:11:33 <lament> ihope: i wasn't, but i enjoyed confusing the rest of the channel.
23:11:40 <ihope> Muahaha.
23:11:43 <tusho> ouch
23:11:44 <tusho> :)
23:11:48 <tusho> well, my joke still works
23:11:49 <tusho> :D
23:14:15 <tusho> So ihope.
23:14:17 <tusho> Your interpreter.
23:14:22 <tusho> What audio file type does it generuut?
23:14:37 <ihope> tusho: I haven't written an interpreter.
23:14:43 <tusho> Write one.
23:15:05 <ihope> I have to finish tinkering, and then I have to think about this emergence thing.
23:16:02 * ihope listens to chords again
23:18:07 <moozilla> ihope: for the emergence thing there could be the visible program which does what it looks like it does, and then the side-effects of each function in that program. the results are the combined results of the two
23:28:43 <ihope> C major is perfect, G major is perfect, D major sounds perfect but isn't (perhaps listening to 19 equal temperament has destroyed my sense of tune), A major sounds terrible, E major sounds perfect, B major sounds perfect, F/G major sounds terrible, Db major sounds terrible, Ab major sounds terrible, Eb major sounds pretty good, Bb major sounds pretty good, F major is perfect.
23:29:02 <lament> you are a nutjob
23:29:18 <ihope> Three of the four terrible-sounding ones contain C/D.
23:30:25 <ihope> That is patently false, sir. I have never employed a nut in my entire life.
23:31:10 <tusho> ihope, you have crazy ears.
23:31:28 * tusho 's ears are terrible at distinguishing or recognizing all the different whatsits.
23:31:32 <lament> i think he's just crazy
23:31:35 <tusho> I can hear an awful lot of stuff, though.
23:31:42 <lament> people who tinker with tunings are crazy people
23:31:44 * ihope tries putting C/D a perfect fifth above F/G
23:32:46 <lament> crazy in the same sense that pseudo-math guys trying to square the circle are crazy
23:32:49 <lament> or the timecube guy
23:32:58 <lament> or this guy: http://members.aol.com/daharrell/
23:33:12 <lament> alternative tunings people are exactly the same kind of nutjob
23:35:41 <tusho> what does ai_wheel actually do btw
23:35:43 <tusho> I might try and run it
23:36:03 <tusho> it seems to use excel for its configuration files
23:36:07 <ihope> It's a simulation no more sophisticated than Creatures, I think, except that it has tools.
23:36:17 <tusho> Oh great.
23:36:34 <tusho> Norns that you can't look at, don't make any sound, and that aren't fun.
23:36:38 <tusho> What more could I want?
23:38:26 <ihope> It claims to be "the most powerful tool in the history of cognitive science", and it has very few Google hits.
23:38:47 * ihope gives it one more: WHEEL HARRELL AI
23:39:00 <lament> it's written by a complete nutjob. A crazy person. Somebody who is not sane. Just like people who come up with alternative tunings.
23:40:14 <ihope> Scala says, "Try setting C/D to 21/20."
23:41:16 <tusho> So:
23:41:19 <tusho> Voynich manuscript.
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23:41:23 <tusho> Discuss.
23:42:08 <ihope> Thank you; I'd forgotten the name of that thing.
23:42:48 <tusho> heh
23:43:01 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript & http://voynich.nu/ & http://inamidst.com/voynich/
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23:52:02 <KingOfKarlsruhe> wow lolcode interpreter in python :) YES http://www.dalkescientific.com/writings/diary/archive/2007/06/01/lolpython.html
23:52:47 <SimonRC> ew, LOLCODE
23:53:10 <tusho> KingOfKarlsruhe: very no
23:54:33 <SimonRC> the conlanging community has exactly the word for that kind of thing: relex
23:54:53 <SimonRC> it is a language that is created by changing the words of another language
23:55:31 <tusho> SimonRC: Also known as "the language you created when you were 5-7"
23:56:03 <SimonRC> not I
23:56:11 <SimonRC> I didn't conlang t that time
23:56:32 <tusho> SimonRC: Don't tell me you didn't invent a couple of words for english concepts.
23:56:39 <tusho> Everyone did that.
23:56:42 <SimonRC> not as far as I know
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23:57:41 * tusho shrugs
23:57:45 <tusho> So, Nullity.
23:57:46 <tusho> Discuss.
23:58:57 <ihope> Okay.
23:59:26 <ihope> It's a fancy way of saying "indeterminate".
23:59:44 <ihope> And not just a little bit indeterminate, but completely and utterly indeterminate.
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2008-08-02:

00:00:40 <tusho> HERETIC. YOU WILL BURN IN NULLITY
00:00:47 <tusho> oh, hi oerjan the mathematician
00:00:49 <tusho> we're discussing nullity.
00:00:55 <SimonRC> it is an interesting extension to the reals
00:01:02 <tusho> SimonRC: no it's not :3
00:01:34 <oerjan> was that the one that was equal to itself or the one that wasn't?
00:01:36 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
00:01:36 <adu> i like the reals
00:01:46 <tusho> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Anderson_(computer_scientist)#Transreal_arithmetic
00:01:59 <adu> is that anything like hyperreals?
00:02:00 <ihope> oerjan: the one that is equal to itself.
00:02:39 <ihope> adu: real numbers plus... positive infinity, negative infinity, and nullity, I think it is.
00:02:48 <ihope> 1/0 = +infinity, -1/0 = -infinity, 0/0 = nullity.
00:03:11 <oerjan> right, it's the IEEE numbers which aren't
00:04:19 <adu> lololololol
00:04:33 <adu> "The report implied that Anderson had discovered the solution to division by zero, rather than simply attempting to formalize it."
00:04:52 <moozilla> anyone want to join my religion
00:04:59 <adu> moozilla: what is it?
00:05:10 <moozilla> we believe that the human race is part of an esoteric programming language created by some higher being
00:05:23 <moozilla> as an experiment
00:05:23 <adu> what does that require?
00:05:25 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
00:05:31 <ihope> I like it when people laugh out loud out linguistic out Larry out lol out lemma.
00:05:36 <moozilla> it requires that you do your part for the experiment
00:05:46 <moozilla> by doing what you normally would do
00:05:58 <moozilla> :P
00:06:01 <adu> uh
00:06:04 <adu> sounds lame
00:06:08 <moozilla> yeah
00:06:10 <moozilla> it is
00:06:12 <moozilla> i just made it up
00:06:29 <adu> I wouldn't subscribe to any organization that would have someone like me as a member
00:06:38 <moozilla> heh
00:06:55 <tusho> oh wow, adu paraphrased groucho marx
00:06:57 <tusho> ha ha ha ha ha.
00:07:06 <adu> :)
00:07:19 <adu> i thought it was mark twain
00:07:21 <adu> o well
00:08:47 <psygnisfive> lallallalllalalallallallalalalalllallallalalllallal
00:08:56 <adu> psygnisfive:
00:09:02 <psygnisfive> oklofok . . .
00:09:55 <oerjan> moozilla: we already did that experiment years ago.  ftp://ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/frc/39  (note slow)
00:10:01 <adu> IEEE forms a wheel
00:10:21 <adu> and transreal arith. forms a wheel
00:10:33 <adu> theres a whole subject called "wheel theory"
00:10:34 <adu> wow
00:10:35 <oerjan> adu: you've checked the axioms?
00:10:41 <adu> wha?
00:10:43 <oerjan> or someone did
00:10:53 <adu> no
00:10:59 <adu> its just at the bottom
00:11:05 <oerjan> there are axioms for wheels.  i should know as i put them on the wiki page
00:11:12 <adu> oerjan: o
00:11:14 <adu> oerjan: nice
00:11:15 <lament> 1995, i wasn't even born yet
00:11:22 <lament> oerjan: for AI wheels?
00:11:32 <moozilla> oerjan: awesome
00:11:36 <adu> I wrote this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carleman_matrix
00:11:38 <oerjan> what are AI wheels?
00:11:50 <lament> oerjan: http://members.aol.com/daharrell/
00:12:44 <tusho> '1995, i wasn't even born yet'
00:12:46 <tusho> i was just born
00:12:47 <tusho> :P
00:13:21 <oerjan> lament: somehow i am not quite prepared to believe you
00:13:22 <SimonRC> wow, you're young
00:13:43 <oerjan> but then i barely believe tusho
00:13:53 <tusho> SimonRC: 12
00:13:54 <moozilla> 2008, i wasnt even born yet
00:14:02 <adu> i was 13 years old in 95
00:14:07 <SimonRC> bah
00:14:08 <oerjan> moozilla: ah, a fellow time traveller!
00:14:18 <moozilla> oerjan you've outed us!
00:14:21 <tusho> 13 in 20 days, though.
00:14:22 * SimonRC dislikes clever young peopole to the
00:14:25 <tusho> what a boring number, 13.
00:14:36 * SimonRC dislikes clever young people to the degree that he is envious of them
00:14:36 <tusho> 12 is a far more awesome number. it is made of awesome.
00:14:38 <adu> I once read a book by someone who lived in 2036
00:14:53 <SimonRC> adu: and?
00:14:53 <tusho> SimonRC: I cannot stand people as clever or more clever than me of a similar age
00:14:54 <moozilla> ah, but what number system is he using
00:14:59 <lament> i dislike clever young people
00:15:01 <lament> let's ban tusho!
00:15:03 <moozilla> it could be quadrinary
00:15:05 <tusho> lament: yes
00:15:07 <tusho> that asshole
00:15:27 <oerjan> moozilla: oops, better go back and change it
00:15:41 <moozilla> oerjan: too lazy atm, let's just enjoy ourselves
00:15:50 <SimonRC> how much I like people depends on how I get on with them
00:15:58 <SimonRC> (deliberate tautology)
00:16:06 <moozilla> i don't dislike clever young people since i was one once
00:16:36 <adu> SimonRC: ever since I've been trying to get access to CERN, which is where he said the beginnings of the time machine were being discovered
00:16:45 <SimonRC> heh
00:16:55 <moozilla> adu: which book?
00:17:25 <adu> http://www.amazon.com/John-Titor-Time-Travelers-Tale/dp/1591964369
00:17:32 <SimonRC> oh no not him again
00:17:57 <SimonRC> I don't beleive in "jumping" time travel.
00:18:10 <adu> he never jumped
00:18:15 <SimonRC> huh?
00:18:26 <adu> he just rode a gravity wave around for awhile, no jumping
00:18:47 <adu> like surfing
00:18:49 <SimonRC> um, gravity waves don't take you back in time
00:18:51 <adu> only theu time
00:19:10 <adu> then maybe theres a better word for it
00:19:22 <adu> I call it surfing gravity
00:19:28 <adu> call it what you want
00:19:30 <SimonRC> :rolleyes:
00:20:16 <adu> maybe other people would call it stabilizing the event horizon of a rotating massive singularity...
00:20:21 <adu> whatever
00:20:37 <moozilla> you know what pisses me off?
00:20:43 <adu> moozilla: what?
00:20:55 <moozilla> how in most movies/books about time travel they assume you can alter the past
00:21:01 <psygnisfive> are we talking about john titor?
00:21:07 <SimonRC> specifcally, I can only beleive that you can get back in time if the time machine exists at that time.
00:21:12 <moozilla> makes more sense to me that it would just split off a different timeline
00:21:34 <SimonRC> it makes most sense to me that the past and future would fit together perfectly
00:21:34 <psygnisfive> he didn't use a rotating singularity he's used a rotating cosmic string
00:21:39 <adu> moozilla: you should read John Titor's book, he dispells the granfather paradox
00:21:49 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
00:22:02 <moozilla> i'll look into it
00:22:02 <oerjan> moozilla: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurTimeTravelIsDifferent (warning, addictive website)
00:22:03 <SimonRC> the problem is, you can't get back to before the string starting rotating, or whatever it did
00:22:23 <tusho> http://qntm.org/?models
00:22:25 <tusho> conversation over
00:22:33 <moozilla> SimonRC: alright, but is it possible to travel forward
00:22:35 <psygnisfive> simonrc: ofcourse, but he didn't use a string machine built by humans
00:22:44 <SimonRC> oerjan: just a slight understatement in the warning
00:22:49 <psygnisfive> he used one discovered in M31
00:22:59 <adu> moozilla: he basically says that his time machine is a piece of sh*t, so anytime you go back with it, you're not going to your own past, but an alternate past, so you can kill the guy who looks like your grandfather, because he's not
00:23:03 <SimonRC> moozilla: yes, see futurama, S1, E1
00:23:19 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: that is fine
00:23:23 <oerjan> SimonRC: hey this time i actually told what the danger was :D
00:23:41 <tusho> tvtropes is basically as addictive as everything2 to me
00:23:54 <tusho> in that I open like 10 pages in tabs for each one page I read
00:24:00 <tusho> and then click another one, etc, until I come to a dead end
00:24:01 <tusho> close that tab
00:24:04 <tusho> and move onto the first opened tab
00:24:07 <tusho> etc, ad infinitum
00:24:10 <SimonRC> imagine a road from NY to Washington DC...
00:24:33 <SimonRC> the road does not "travel" from one place to another, it *extends* from one place to another
00:24:41 <SimonRC> tusho: yup
00:24:55 <SimonRC> tusho: its a cyclic tab machine
00:24:59 <SimonRC> *rimshot*
00:25:04 <tusho> that was awful
00:25:09 <tusho> i wonder if it's TC
00:25:09 <tusho> :D
00:25:23 <psygnisfive> time travel allows hypercomputation.
00:25:23 <tusho> hmm the way I stated it was wrong
00:25:40 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: that may be a good reason to disbeleive in it
00:25:52 <ihope> I considered a time travel gate in quantum mechanics, you know. It returns the value that you will put into it.
00:25:53 <tusho> go to article 1 -> click click click loads of tabs in the background -> read all of it, click an interesting link on article 1 -> (repeat) -> dead end, no more links. close tab, move onto the next one, repeat until no more tabs (note: this never happens)
00:26:04 <pikhq> Time travel makes the Infinity Machine trivial to implement, really.
00:26:18 <SimonRC> Primer is a good movie and avoids some types of bad time travel:  http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Primer
00:26:31 <ihope> I realized that it could be used to store practically infinite amounts of data, and retrieve arbitrary practically unremarkable amounts of it.
00:26:32 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: modulo reliability
00:26:43 <ihope> I later realized it could be used to control the universe.
00:26:51 <psygnisfive> i didnt like Primer
00:27:06 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: did you watch it on DVD?
00:27:12 <psygnisfive> dont remember
00:27:15 <pikhq> ihope: Ever read the description of the Infinity Machine?
00:27:15 <psygnisfive> all i know is, i didnt like it
00:27:18 <ihope> pikhq: nope.
00:27:33 <pikhq> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/infinity.html
00:27:37 <SimonRC> I recommend other people get it on DVD, and watch the confusing bits repeatedly
00:27:47 <SimonRC> then read the explanation threads on the forums
00:27:49 <pikhq> The description of a machine which can store an infinite amount of data and do computations infinitely fast.
00:27:51 <SimonRC> then watch it some more
00:27:52 <adu> ihope: wow
00:28:00 <SimonRC> then you might understand most of it
00:28:01 <psygnisfive> i didnt find it confusing, simonrc
00:28:04 <psygnisfive> i just found it boring
00:28:05 <lament> pikhq: cool, where can i buy it?
00:28:09 <adu> ihope: can you explain that in more detail?
00:28:10 <oerjan> ihope: i vaguely recall someone did calculations with faster-than-light particles (tachyons) and QM, and found out the quantum mechanics cancel out the time travel effects - information ends up only going forward, slower than light
00:28:11 <SimonRC> psygnisfive: hm :-S
00:28:16 <pikhq> lament: It's hypothetical.
00:28:22 <ihope> Take a qubit from the time gate. CNOT it with a target qubit. Put it back in the time gate.
00:28:26 <lament> oh :(
00:28:30 <pikhq> More so than, say, a Turing Machine.
00:28:30 <SimonRC> oerjan: how does one tell which way the information is going
00:28:42 <ihope> This is consistent if and only if the target qubit is 0; therefore, it selects the possible quantum states where the target qubit is 0.
00:29:06 <psygnisfive> one model of quantum mechanics says that particles travel forward and backward in time constantly
00:29:31 <psygnisfive> antiparticles, for instance, can be see as the normal particles moving backwards through time
00:29:37 <ihope> So you could control the universe by taking camera input and selecting the possible quantum states where it's a certain image. Of course, this could just control internal error rather than external happenings.
00:29:53 <ihope> It's easy to make a cellular automaton where things move backwards in time.
00:29:58 <psygnisfive> and some models of how things like wave function collapse occur involve messenger particles travelling backwards through time
00:30:04 <SimonRC> ihope: a bugger to implement
00:30:06 <adu> what was that one time travel movie with the original superman actor?
00:30:06 <moozilla> i loved the movie primer
00:30:22 <ihope> SimonRC: use Mirek's Cellebration.
00:30:27 <SimonRC> moozilla: the model is unsucky in uncommon ways
00:30:44 <moozilla> yeah
00:30:50 <SimonRC> ihope: why doesn't simulating it require a superturing computer?
00:30:50 <moozilla> i liked the looping thing
00:31:03 <oerjan> SimonRC: well i guess it prevents any effects that could be used to send information backwards in practice, like the usual theory for why you cannot use entanglement to send information faster than light
00:32:02 <SimonRC> [Author's note: the primer model is that when the time machine turns on, your future self gets out, and in the future, you get in just as you turn the machine off.]
00:32:17 <SimonRC> oerjan: ok
00:32:19 <tusho> SimonRC: What if you turn it on and don't get in?
00:32:27 <tusho> Nothing happens?
00:32:36 <SimonRC> tusho: ah, well the timeline branches
00:32:47 <tusho> SimonRC: Or: What if you turn it on, someone comes out, and then you don't go in?
00:32:51 <oerjan> otoh i have this vague idea that maybe the strange properties of quantum mechanics are _because_ particles time travel all the time (but with this kind of censorship rule to cancel out the worst effects)
00:32:54 <tusho> Pime taradox?
00:32:58 <SimonRC> the problem with branchin timelines is that you end up with too many Hitler-assassins
00:33:18 <oerjan> oh psygnisfive already mentioned something similar
00:33:50 <adu> "Somewhere in Time"
00:33:50 <oerjan> except i thought maybe the time travel could be the cause of the other weirdness
00:33:56 <SimonRC> every time traveller causes a branch, and each of those will branch a few times before the assassin sets off, so you always end up with more assassins than you have assasins
00:33:58 <adu> gtg
00:34:01 <SimonRC> unless there are 0 of them
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00:35:02 <tusho> anyway
00:35:05 <tusho> I have my own pet time travel theory
00:35:17 <tusho> you know the regular 'you can go back, change something, return and it's all changed?'
00:35:27 <tusho> and how it requires YOU to have your own personal timeline to experience that happening?
00:35:37 <tusho> well, the idea is simple: everything has an infinite stack of timelines.
00:35:47 <SimonRC> wait, is this the one where the split timeline has a second you?
00:36:25 <SimonRC> tusho: why doesn't that have the infinite-Hitler-assassins problem?
00:36:39 <tusho> SimonRC: the idea is
00:36:41 <tusho> you experience this:
00:36:47 <tusho> go into a time machine, change shit, go back, everything's different
00:36:53 <tusho> but if you rewrote time, you'd never go in the time machine!
00:37:00 <tusho> so you must have your own personal timeline where in the past you went in the time machine
00:37:07 <moozilla> i have a similar theory
00:37:08 <tusho> my idea is that that timeline then has a timeline
00:37:10 <tusho> and so on to infinity
00:37:15 <tusho> and every particle has it
00:37:20 <tusho> instead of every conscience or whateve
00:37:20 <tusho> r
00:37:30 <moozilla> i believe there are infinite timelines
00:37:43 <moozilla> when you travel back it must be on a different timeline
00:37:46 <lament> that loop inward on each other like a giant wheel
00:37:56 <moozilla> however it would be nearly impossible to come back to the same timeline
00:38:06 <tusho> moozilla: that's a common theory.
00:38:07 <moozilla> which is why we never see time travelers
00:38:10 <tusho> it's also less interesting than mine
00:38:23 <tusho> which allows the typical fiction of omg you killed hitler everything is different
00:38:28 <tusho> while still actually being consistent
00:38:34 <oerjan> there is also the theory that says that time travel will keep changing the past until time travel ends up never being invented
00:38:36 <moozilla> i dont see why everyone would have to have their own timeline
00:38:38 <SimonRC> moozilla: that requires discrete CTCs, not continuous ones... kinda
00:38:43 <moozilla> CTC?
00:38:49 <tusho> bye for today
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00:39:11 <SimonRC> I mean, that the time machines jumps from past to future, rather than being a journey that one walks to go into the past
00:39:38 <SimonRC> the former has a point where the time traveller "arrives" from the future
00:39:39 <moozilla> ah right
00:39:53 <SimonRC> the latter has a continuous stream of air and stuff arriving from the future
00:39:55 <moozilla> i havent really theorized on HOW time travel would be accomplished
00:40:02 <moozilla> more on just the nature of time
00:40:18 <moozilla> one of my ideas is that
00:40:22 <SimonRC> well, I don't beleive in a direction of fundamental causality
00:40:45 <SimonRC> so any model that is time-assymetric is suspicious
00:40:46 <moozilla> a sort of version of quantum entanglement
00:41:03 <moozilla> where particles are entangled with particles from a different time
00:41:30 <moozilla> my understanding of entanglement is cloudy so that might be what it already is
00:41:35 <SimonRC> you can't transmit information via entanglement surely?
00:41:47 <moozilla> not intentionally
00:42:12 <moozilla> but in this model all "randomness" is essentially input from a different time
00:42:39 <oerjan> SimonRC: a recent Scientific American wrote about a new theory of quantum gravity that worked better precisely by including a direction of causality in the basics
00:42:47 <ihope> SimonRC: because it's reversible.
00:43:28 <oerjan> although it was probably still time-symmetric mathematically
00:43:53 <oerjan> (since you could just reverse all arrows)
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01:05:52 <pikhq> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/aliases.html
01:05:59 <pikhq> Holy shit...
01:07:53 <pikhq> So. Very. Evil.
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01:27:38 * SimonRC goes to bed.
01:28:45 <lament> bash is hairy, why am i not surprised :(
01:28:56 <lament> would be nice if bash were finally replaced by something nice
01:29:05 <lament> unfortunately the only alternative is Windows PowerShell :)
01:32:25 <pikhq> Bullshit.
01:32:30 <pikhq> Zsh.
01:32:32 <pikhq> :D
01:32:50 <ihope> Couldn't you use ash or bsh or csh or dsh or esh or fsh or gsh ot hsh or ish or jsh or ksh or lsh or msh or nsh or osh or psh or qsh or rsh or ssh or tsh or ush or vsh or wsh or xsh or ysh or zsh?
01:33:03 <ihope> Actually, using ssh as a shell is probably a bad idea.
01:33:24 <pikhq> As is using rsh.
01:33:43 <pikhq> And you'll find yourself hating ash and csh.
01:34:03 <lament> pikhq: i said something nice, not a sh-based shell
01:34:16 <ihope> Yeah, rsh is also kind of bad.
01:34:27 <ihope> I imagine GHCi is not the worst of shells.
01:34:35 <pikhq> lament: Zsh isn't sh-based.
01:34:44 <pikhq> No more than Emacs is Vi-based. :p
01:35:23 <lament> well, it's close enough :)
01:35:28 <ihope> I should learn emacs.
01:35:41 <ihope> The only reason I use vi is that I know how it works.
01:35:48 <lament> all these shell have decades of backwards-compatibility cruft in them
01:35:58 <ihope> Press i and boom, Notepad! And then you have fancy commands like c5l.
01:36:13 <ihope> :wq to save and exit, :q! to exit without saving...
01:38:27 <pikhq> The Z shell has a ridiculous amount of features, BTW...
01:38:36 <lament> of coures
01:38:39 <lament> so does bash
01:38:47 <pikhq> "Because zsh contains many features, the zsh manual has been split into a number of sections:"
01:39:23 <lament> when a program contains a ridiculous amount of features, the features will start interacting in curious and unexpected ways
01:39:28 <lament> like functions and aliases :)
01:41:58 <pikhq> Its emulation of other shells is enabled by runtime configuration options.
01:42:14 <lament> haha
01:42:34 <pikhq> The Z shell is basically the Emacs of shells.
01:43:38 <ihope> Hmm, I just realized that I haven't actually designed that artificial intelligence language. I should do so.
01:44:24 <ihope> I now further realize that my idea for the language so far has no room for analog signal processing.
01:46:02 * oerjan sort of expected emacs to be the emacs of shells
01:46:38 * ihope rectifies oerjan for using "/me" as a substitute for "I"
01:47:03 * oerjan refuses to be rectified
01:47:24 * oerjan are not amused
01:47:33 * ihope attempts to make oerjan say something outside of a /me
01:47:55 * oerjan laughs at ihope's pitiful tries
01:49:46 * oerjan wonders if there is a way to have his irc client translate i to /me automatically.  it would need to do something about verb inflection, also.
01:51:25 * oerjan reverses the polarity
01:52:06 <oerjan> *jumps up and down*
01:52:26 <oerjan> *cackles evilly*
01:59:01 <moozilla> what irc client?
01:59:11 <moozilla> fairly sure its simple to do with something like mIRC
01:59:19 * oerjan utilizes irssi
02:00:36 * oerjan would probably not actually endeavor to utilize a solution, if one were to be presented.
02:00:59 * oerjan also is somewhat a fan of Varsuuvius from OOTS
02:01:37 * moozilla is usually too lazy to type /me
02:44:02 <pikhq> oerjan: You know, Zsh *has an editor*.
02:44:27 <oerjan> ah.
02:44:50 <pikhq> And a tetris implementation.
02:45:03 <oerjan> what about an irc client?
02:45:09 <pikhq> No.
02:45:15 <pikhq> But it does have an FTP client.
02:45:45 <oerjan> it does sound ... promising
02:45:54 <pikhq> And since it has builtin handling of network I/O, one could probably write an IRC client for it trivially.
02:55:13 <ihope> I want to write a Proce-to-electronics compiler.
02:56:55 <pikhq> Oh, it also tends to byte-compile shell functions.
02:57:14 <psygnisfive> tusho, you here?
02:58:18 <oerjan> <01:38  tusho> bye for today
02:58:49 <oerjan> (now 03:58)
03:05:43 <psygnisfive> lametusho
03:05:54 <psygnisfive> anyone here use a mac? or know ruby?
03:05:55 <ihope> Memo him.
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03:11:09 <Sgeo> Hi futilius
03:11:14 <futilius> hey
03:17:38 <CakeProphet> I'm vaguely familiar with Ruby
03:17:38 <CakeProphet> don't use it a lot though
03:18:18 <futilius> is that an esoteric satire of perl?
03:20:27 <psygnisfive> cakeprophet: PMs.
03:20:41 <ihope> Ello.
03:21:10 <ihope> Are you familiar with functional programming? I think Unlambda is what introduced me to it. :-)
03:22:11 <psygnisfive> futilius: Ruby is far from esoteric
03:24:05 <oerjan> RUBE on the other hand
03:27:17 <pikhq> I disagree. Ruby damned well should be esoteric.
03:27:17 <pikhq> :p
03:27:18 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
03:27:24 <psygnisfive> why?
03:27:27 <pikhq> oerjan: RUBE is just plain brilliant, of course.
03:27:32 <psygnisfive> do you know ruby at all btw?
03:27:39 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Because I don't like it, and what I don't like is esoteric.
03:27:40 <pikhq> :p
03:27:48 <psygnisfive> why dont you like it
03:28:00 <pikhq> Honestly, it's not that bad of a language. . .
03:28:10 <psygnisfive> i take it you know it then
03:28:15 <psygnisfive> wanna work on a project together?
03:28:42 <pikhq> I just don't like its little 'object oriented *everywhere*' shit and its syntax isn't something I'm all to fond of.
03:29:39 <lament> ruby is suck.
03:29:42 <lament> python is suck.
03:29:48 <pikhq> Tcl is win.
03:29:51 <lament> both are good enough, though.
03:29:56 <lament> i don't think tcl is good enough.
03:30:14 <pikhq> How familiar are you with Tcl?
03:30:18 <lament> not very.
03:30:20 <psygnisfive> i dislike tcl
03:30:24 <psygnisfive> it seems disjointed
03:30:28 <lament> i know that everything is a string in it.
03:30:45 <pikhq> I especially enjoy doing radical language modification in it.
03:30:49 <lament> a language based on such an idiotic premise can't be very good.
03:30:57 <pikhq> (that, BTW, was the implementation technique for PEBBLE)
03:31:00 <ihope> Quantum Proce is the future!
03:31:49 <pikhq> BTW, typically in Tcl implementations, not everything is a string. . .
03:31:55 <pikhq> Everything just has a string representation.
03:32:53 <psygnisfive> pikhq: pms.
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04:42:59 * ihope attempts to find what tusho said about returning to rootnomic
04:43:22 <ihope> I remember one of the conditions was a sane proposal system.
04:44:21 <ihope> The other... wasn't a justice system, surely. adduser proposals?
04:44:52 <ihope> I suppose he's gone with the "long life" approach. And with that, it's bedtime, so good night, ding ding ding, etc.
04:45:46 <pikhq> Night.
04:51:12 <ihope> (Archytas' 1/3-tone, minor semitone, minor diatonic semitone, major diatonic semitone, minor whole tone, middle second, major whole tone, septimal whole tone...)
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04:59:44 <pikhq> That's just a terrible description of the LotR: "Frodo and friends go on a quest to *find* a magic ring."
04:59:54 <Sgeo> oO where?
04:59:54 * pikhq mutters about bad newspaper reporting.
05:00:11 <pikhq> Reading tvtropes.
05:00:13 <pikhq> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CowboyBebopAtHisComputer
05:00:57 <moozilla> that is a bad description
05:01:21 <moozilla> how about "halfing and crew go on epic quest to destroy a mystical ring"
05:03:57 <pikhq> See, that would be accurate.
05:04:09 <pikhq> Except s/halfing/hobbit/
05:04:10 <pikhq> :p
05:04:21 <pikhq> This is Arda, not D&D.
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05:06:40 <moozilla> I'm pretty sure they use "halfing" in the LoTR books
05:06:51 <moozilla> halfing and hobbit are interchangable afaik
05:07:41 <pikhq> Not that I recall.
05:07:52 <pikhq> Though it has been a while since I read LotR.
05:07:56 <moozilla> same
05:42:04 <oklofok> 00:54… ihope: The intervals from C, according to Scala: unison, septimal neutral second, major whole tone, septimal minor third, major third, perfect fourth, septimal tritone, perfect fifth, septimal minor sixth, major sixth, harmonic seventh, classic major seventh, octave. <<< this is just latin for 0-12
05:42:09 <oklofok> hmm
05:42:12 <oklofok> ihope isn't here
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06:04:20 <oklofok> awesome, logs ended!
06:04:35 <oklofok> i have my own theory about time travel too
06:04:39 <oklofok> it's fucking bullcrap
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06:11:41 <psygnisfive> oklofok
06:11:47 <psygnisfive> i want to have your babies
06:14:18 <oklofok> <3
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06:21:35 <psygnisfive> oklofok, do you know any ruby?
06:33:08 <oklofok> i've made a bot in it
06:33:34 <oklofok> i'm leaving for 5 days in 3 hours
06:33:49 <oklofok> so if anyone else wants my babies, time is running out.
06:41:12 <oklofok> oh btw, as i like promoting things everyone else hates, i've had this computer about 4 months or something, i don't think vista has crashed *once* so that i'd had to reboot.
06:41:47 <oklofok> vista <3
06:42:29 <oklofok> but oh god this is a crappy system, i just spent ages trying to save a file in adobe reader, the reason i couldn't was that the window limit was already full, so i couldn't open to save window :D
06:42:59 <oklofok> but there's no message, window creation just silently errors out :-)
06:48:19 <oklofok> i'd understand like a limit of a million windows
06:48:30 <oklofok> but i have only like a hundred open
06:48:48 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol.
07:18:45 <oklopol> well aren't you a quiet bunch
07:22:43 <CakeProphet> ...
07:22:49 <CakeProphet> I am trying to figure out
07:22:53 <CakeProphet> how unions could be useful.
07:22:58 <CakeProphet> (of the C variety)
07:24:35 <CakeProphet> ...oh lawl... I see.
07:25:51 <psygnisfive> oklopol
07:25:53 <psygnisfive> where are you going?
07:29:59 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i'm a scout :-)
07:30:03 <oklopol> scouting things
07:30:22 <psygnisfive> you're a scout?
07:30:25 <psygnisfive> like a boyscout?
07:30:32 <oklopol> right ya
07:32:53 <oklopol> o
07:33:14 <oklopol> i'll do some going now, although i may still return in a few hours ->
07:34:49 <CakeProphet> hmmm... it's kind of lame that C unions require you to point to names.
07:34:55 <CakeProphet> isntead of just like
07:35:02 <oklopol> oh unions.
07:35:05 <oklopol> i read onions
07:35:27 <CakeProphet> union {int; char *;} var;
07:35:30 <CakeProphet> var = "lol";
07:35:35 <oklopol> thought that was some complex C term for some kind of inheritance
07:35:36 <CakeProphet> var = 0;
07:35:38 <CakeProphet> ...
07:35:38 <oklopol> you know, layers and shit
07:35:42 <CakeProphet> rofl
07:35:57 <oklopol> :))))))
07:35:58 <oklopol> ->
07:38:14 <CakeProphet> is there some way in C to like... write functions for structs that have similar attributes.
07:38:24 <CakeProphet> so I don't have to, for example, write the same linked list code for like 4 billion different things.
07:42:47 <psygnisfive> oklopol, i demand photos of you in boyscout uniform
07:42:54 <psygnisfive> especially if you have to wear really short shorts
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08:21:28 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
08:21:33 <psygnisfive> you! short shorts! now!
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08:26:32 <Marc56435345> Hola a todos.
08:26:54 <Marc56435345> Soy el bot 45688FDS1-87
08:27:16 <Marc56435345> CONEXI�N INICIALIZADA - A�O 2089
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08:38:22 <oklopol> CakeProphet: yeah it's called use a real language
08:38:53 <CakeProphet> rofl, yeah.
08:39:25 <oklopol> i don't get all this praising c as the portable assembly, it's a retarded language, that's all it is.
08:42:09 <oklopol> anyway C has pointers
08:42:22 <oklopol> so it's easy to make a generic linked list thingie
08:42:30 <oklopol> thinguloid in this case ofc
09:01:04 <oklopol> psygnisfive: were egobot here, i could perhaps give you a 1% chance of getting pics for sparse requests.
09:01:25 <oklopol> but, anyways, bye ->
09:12:42 <CakeProphet> ...I'm assuming he meant like void pointers or something.
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11:56:05 <Tritonio_> hello
11:56:59 <tusho> hi
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12:56:07 <KingOfKarlsruhe> thats cool python :) http://paste.pocoo.org/show/81013/
12:57:24 <tusho> no
12:57:27 <tusho> lolcode is a travesty
12:57:30 <tusho> this "lolpython" is a travesty
12:57:36 <tusho> and liking it is a travesty
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14:18:42 * tusho makes notes of possible domain alts to ephemera.org which is taken: pentagenia.org
14:20:00 <AnMaster> hm
14:20:17 * AnMaster decides to *not* register it
14:20:35 <tusho> AnMaster: i do believe you want to be an eso member
14:20:42 <tusho> (that there was a threat :) )
14:20:44 <AnMaster> tusho, haha
14:21:05 <AnMaster> as it costs money I would never do it anyway
14:21:23 <tusho> anyhoo, it's a genus containing one species (pentagenia robusta), which is an extinct type of mayfly
14:21:26 <tusho> and mayflies are ephemeral
14:21:28 <AnMaster> I'm not sure of the English word.... but in Swedish I would say I'm "snål"
14:21:41 <AnMaster> as in extremely much don't want to waste money
14:21:47 <AnMaster> not sure of the English word
14:21:52 <tusho> AnMaster: cheap? ;)
14:22:21 <AnMaster> think Scrooge (spelling?) from that classical story, "A Christmas carol"(?)
14:22:33 <tusho> scrooge is the right spelling
14:22:38 <tusho> and that's the right name
14:23:00 * tusho ponders on the opposite of ephemera
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14:26:47 <tusho> halo pakihq
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14:37:44 <pikhq> Halo.
14:39:31 <tusho> pikhq: what do you think of pentagenia.org as a domain
14:39:39 <tusho> just in general domainular terms.
14:42:16 <pikhq> Meh.
14:42:22 <pikhq> Could be interesting.
14:42:52 <tusho> pikhq: I wanted ephemera.org but it's taken
14:43:14 <tusho> mayflies are ephemerical -> pentagenia robusta is an extinct species of mayfly -> the pentagenia genus contains only that species
14:43:29 <pikhq> Robusta.
14:43:49 <tusho> ... is not a very aesthetically pleasing name
14:43:54 <tusho> it makes me think of rust for some reason
14:44:07 <tusho> also, robusta.org is taken
14:45:53 <pikhq> Aww.
14:47:50 <tusho> if only photographers all died.
14:47:54 <tusho> then I could have ephemera.org.
14:51:08 <tusho> pikhq: Any related-to-ephemera domain names you can think of? The synonyms are all boring or taken.
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15:18:42 <ihope> If you write that proposal system, they will die! :-P
15:21:13 <tusho> ihope: <.<
15:21:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, any progress on your Def-BF implementation
15:21:31 <AnMaster> ?
15:21:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, or on the bison file?
15:22:52 <pikhq> None.
15:22:55 <pikhq> None at all.
15:23:01 <AnMaster> oh well...
15:23:08 * tusho is trying to find a big image of old paper-sorta
15:23:12 <tusho> like old maps and similar
15:23:25 <AnMaster> tusho, what do you plan to use it for?
15:23:52 <tusho> AnMaster: for pentagenia.org/whatever, /attic/ will be used to store common images, stylesheets etc
15:24:00 <AnMaster> k
15:24:02 <tusho> going to just /attic/ I have "Here Be Dragons"
15:24:07 <tusho> i'd like to put some old paper behind that
15:24:15 <AnMaster> so how is botte going?
15:24:24 <tusho> quite well, the actual implementation will be trivial
15:24:35 <tusho> it's just the making sure it can handle stuff
15:24:38 <tusho> which I've mostly got worked out
15:25:23 <AnMaster> blergh this old P3 got larger CPU cache than my modern 64-bit Sempron :(
15:25:32 <AnMaster> (256 kb vs. 128 kb)
15:28:17 <pikhq> Semprons are notable for having a low amount of cache. :p
15:28:22 <AnMaster> yeah :(
15:28:35 <tusho> bah, I found some good old paper
15:28:37 <tusho> but it doesn't tile
15:31:49 * ihope steals WordPress's Terms of Service
15:32:14 <tusho> ihope: For normish?
15:32:15 <tusho> That makes no sense.
15:32:28 <ihope> Well, it needs some sort of Terms of Service.
15:32:41 <tusho> Yes but it's meaningless just to pick one.
15:32:53 <tusho> I'll draft one around the same time as my proposal system, prob'ly.
15:32:57 <ihope> Okay.
15:33:12 * ihope plucks out unimportant bits and ponders things to be added
15:33:12 <tusho> "Don't be stupid, don't be evil" will probably suffice in the meanterm
15:33:12 <tusho> :P
15:33:29 <ihope> Don't be stupid, don't be evil, and don't sue us.
15:34:08 <tusho> Also, don't follow the terms of service.
15:41:09 <ihope> Hmm. It turns out the WordPress Terms of Service just aren't very good for a thing such as Normish.
15:41:20 <tusho> Zomg rly. :P
15:41:30 <tusho> But to be honest I doubt you need one right now, due to the complete lack of people.
15:41:49 <ihope> True. I might as well be working on something while you're slaving away at that proposal system, though.
15:42:01 <tusho> ihope: Write a theme song.
15:42:24 <tusho> Nooooormish! It's norma-norma-normish! Normish all day, normish all night, amending itself until it's right! Noooooooooooooormishhhhhhhhhh!
15:43:14 <tusho> ihope: No?
15:44:11 -!- Hiato has joined.
15:46:27 <ihope> Sounds like that recording my friends made for me.
15:46:34 <ihope> It was them enthusiastically repeating my name. :-D
15:50:15 <ihope> A slogan, perhaps.
15:51:53 <ihope> "The free* website that anyone can edit**. (*Most parts of the website are free to access.) (**Registration required. Some parts of the website may be closed to editing to some users.)"
15:53:50 <tusho> ihope: shall I explain the tune of my jingle
15:53:57 <ihope> Yes.
15:54:38 <tusho> AAaaaaauu! Ia nanananana! da da da du, da da da du, da da da da du da da da! Daladaladaldaldaldaldaldda!
15:54:41 <tusho> To the above lyrics.
15:55:05 <ihope> Sounds Katamari Damacyy.
15:55:51 <tusho> ihope: No, more 80s-90s jingle/theme song.
16:38:43 <AnMaster> tusho, when you get an idea is it "I got it!" or "I have it!" that is the correct English exclamation?
16:38:53 <tusho> AnMaster: I've got it!
16:38:58 <tusho> (I have got it)
16:39:01 <AnMaster> ah...
16:39:02 <tusho> so, it's both
16:39:02 <tusho> :P
16:39:05 <tusho> brb
16:39:06 <AnMaster> hahh
17:09:45 <ihope> tusho: should we discuss the Terms of Service at all, or shall we just complain about them when the time comes? :-)
17:09:58 <tusho> ihope: :D
17:10:29 <tusho> AnMaster: informally, 'Got it' is common
17:11:03 <ihope> I think we should say that by submitting your code, you certify that we may use it unless you state otherwise somehow, and you agree that we may use it.
17:11:51 <tusho> ihope: When I write it, it'll involve all your code being public domain
17:12:04 <ihope> Sounds good.
17:12:08 <tusho> or if that's legally impossible, giving everyone the right to do anything with it
17:12:40 <ihope> "You certify that it's public-domain-etc unless you state otherwise, and you agree that it's public-domain-etc."
17:12:49 <ihope> Hmm, no.
17:12:56 <tusho> No.
17:12:59 <tusho> don't give them a choice
17:13:12 <tusho> anyway 'certify that it's public domain' is more-or-less meaningless
17:13:14 <ihope> Well, if they submit their own stuff, they agree that it's public domain no matter what.
17:13:41 <ihope> I take it there's no law saying that you can't certify something false, then.
17:14:08 <tusho> It's just that it isn't very meaningful
17:14:13 <tusho> anyway public domain is invalid in a lot of places
17:14:14 <tusho> I'll think about it
17:14:37 <ihope> Forget the certify, then. "You agree that it's public-domain-etc."
17:14:45 <tusho> That is also pretty meaningless...
17:15:00 <ihope> "You make it public-domain-etc, if possible"?
17:16:43 <ihope> More legalesey: "By submitting content to the Server, you agree that it is in the public domain, or, if this is not legally possible, that anyone may use it for any purpose to the maximum extent that is legally possible."
17:16:59 <tusho> It's still terrible wording.
17:17:03 <tusho> Anyway I'd drop PD entirely
17:17:08 <tusho> and use the cc-pd wordin
17:17:08 <tusho> g
17:18:47 <ihope> Yeah.
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18:03:38 <tusho> lost the game
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18:15:30 <tusho> Wow. I seem to have 1 million dollars.
18:15:31 <tusho> Who wants it?
18:17:55 <tusho> Nobody at all?
18:20:00 <tusho> 1 million dollars and nobody wants it? Is that right?
18:20:53 <tusho> ihope: not even you?
18:21:11 <ihope> I do.
18:21:39 <tusho> ihope: Okay. You can have all the 1 million dollars.
18:21:50 <ihope> Yay.
18:21:52 <tusho> All I have to do now is find out how to convert Zimbabwean dollars to US dollars...
18:21:53 <tusho> :D
18:22:28 <tusho> who saw that coming
18:22:29 <tusho> <.<
18:22:39 <ihope> Me. :-P
18:23:45 <AnMaster> tusho, I can help you with that
18:24:02 <tusho> ihope: Exactly that?
18:24:12 <tusho> Zimbabwean dollars? If so, you win a cookie.
18:24:17 <tusho> AnMaster: :P
18:24:19 <AnMaster> just scan the front and the back of your ID cards and send the scans to me
18:24:20 <AnMaster> !
18:24:26 <AnMaster> ;P
18:24:42 <tusho> :D
18:25:00 <ihope> So, you have... what, ZWD 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000--no, I figured it might be a much less valuable currency also called a dollar.
18:25:01 <AnMaster> also your bank details
18:25:09 <tusho> oh, and for any uncultured people who don't know anything about the world and don't need up with the news, USD$1 = Z$1,000,000
18:25:27 <AnMaster> tusho, ouch that is bad inflation
18:25:28 <tusho> approx
18:25:37 <tusho> AnMaster: est. 9,000,000% or so
18:25:38 <tusho> I believe
18:25:51 <AnMaster> tusho, per year?
18:25:55 <tusho> AnMaster: not sure
18:25:59 <tusho> they print Z$1bn notes, though
18:26:09 <ihope> Doesn't matter; the currency will be worthless eventually.
18:26:24 <AnMaster> they should try to make it go stable and then redefine in a new currency
18:26:30 <AnMaster> so you have sane values
18:26:46 <tusho> AnMaster: zimbabwean is run by a dictator
18:26:48 <tusho> pretty much.
18:26:52 <tusho> *zimbabwe
18:27:05 <AnMaster> Mugabe iirc?
18:27:09 <tusho> yep
18:27:18 <tusho> somehow I don't think a racist dictator who uses violence and plain ignoring of election results to stay in power cares much about the currency
18:28:20 <ihope> There was a video clip of a guy with a bucket of pennies, offering people to take some.
18:28:58 * tusho notes another domain: percolation.org
18:29:07 <tusho> I think I like percolation.org more than pentagenia.org
18:29:19 <tusho> it's also more unique than ephemera i think
18:29:33 <tusho> first result = wikipedia article
18:29:34 <tusho> always a good sign
18:29:39 <tusho> comments?
18:30:21 <ihope> Nope.
18:30:38 <ihope> Type it into a domain name service and watch it get registered before your very eyes.
18:31:19 <tusho> ihope: That's money. I want to make sure first. :P
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18:31:57 * ihope tests
18:32:09 <tusho> ?
19:03:09 -!- asiekierka has joined.
19:03:19 <asiekierka> helo
19:03:26 <tusho> hi asiekierka
19:12:42 <Sgeo> Hi asiekierka
19:14:08 <tusho> ™
19:15:04 <psygnisfive> tushooo
19:18:03 <tusho> psygnisfiveeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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19:19:38 * Sgeo actually managed to go too far in a fractal program
19:19:47 <psygnisfive> tusho, you know ruby right?
19:19:52 <tusho> of course
19:19:59 <psygnisfive> wanna work on a project together?
19:20:28 <tusho> What is it?
19:20:42 <psygnisfive> pms
19:42:15 <SimonRC> pre-menstural syndrome?
19:42:28 <SimonRC> or plural of PM?
19:43:20 <tusho> latter
19:43:24 <psygnisfive> former
19:43:29 <psygnisfive> tusho's a girl, you know.
19:43:34 <tusho> shut up psygnisfive
19:43:40 <tusho> it wasn't funny the first time, it still isn't funny
19:43:43 <psygnisfive> he'll be a woman soon, and PMS will be a rather important issue
19:43:54 <psygnisfive> btw, your birthday is the 22 right?
19:43:58 <tusho> psygnisfive: just shut the fuck up. and yes.
19:44:04 <psygnisfive> ok.
19:44:48 * SimonRC wonders what evidence psygnisfive has for that claim.
19:45:20 <psygnisfive> what evidence that tusho is a girl?
19:45:26 <SimonRC> yeah
19:45:39 <tusho> SimonRC: he's just doing it to annoy me.
19:45:40 <tusho> ignore him.
19:45:44 <psygnisfive> firstly, none, its just humorous remarks based on his appearance and voice
19:45:52 <psygnisfive> secondly, by. :D
19:45:56 <psygnisfive> bye
19:46:00 <tusho> psygnisfive: humorous to one person - you
19:46:36 <SimonRC> you don't know each other IRL do you?
19:46:50 <psygnisfive> were lovers
19:46:52 <psygnisfive> bye
19:47:10 <tusho> SimonRC: no.
19:47:33 <SimonRC> ok
19:52:35 <tusho> pentagenia.org, percolation.org... /me continues considering alternatives to ephemera.org
19:52:46 <tusho> (Hmm. Roughly (exactly?) the same length and starting with p.)
19:52:49 <asiekierka> I want to create a NOISC
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19:52:55 <asiekierka> Negative One Instruction Set Computer
19:52:59 <SimonRC> lol
19:53:05 <asiekierka> I will make it as such
19:53:23 <tusho> asiekierka: when you look at programs, do they eat the screen space around them?
19:53:27 <tusho> do they run in negative time?
19:53:31 <asiekierka> i will explain
19:53:33 <asiekierka> there is...
19:53:34 <tusho> I'd love to have programs finish running before I start them
19:53:43 <asiekierka> One instruction that sure as heck doesn't exist in the language: a form of finishing the program
19:53:51 <asiekierka> So we dont know any instructions
19:53:54 <asiekierka> we only know what isnt
19:54:11 <asiekierka> Who'll now make an app for it?
19:54:37 <asiekierka> You use any instructions
19:54:43 <asiekierka> except a form of finishing the program
19:55:21 <tusho> heh
19:55:28 <tusho> that's actually infinite instructions..
19:55:44 <tusho> anyway here's my program
19:55:45 <tusho> HW
19:55:47 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what language is it?
19:55:52 <asiekierka> "NOISC"
19:55:53 <tusho> that is the "hello world then halt" instruction
19:56:02 <asiekierka> Negative One Instruction Set Computer
19:56:11 <AnMaster> oh?
19:56:13 <AnMaster> sounds fun
19:56:14 <tusho> AnMaster: it's actually infinite instructions
19:56:16 <asiekierka> We only know what command isn't surely there
19:56:20 <tusho> he just specified one instruction that isnt there
19:56:20 <asiekierka> Also, tusho...
19:56:23 <tusho> and says that every other will work.
19:56:31 <asiekierka> I said "form of finishing a program" is banned
19:56:35 <asiekierka> ANYTHING counts
19:56:37 <tusho> asiekierka: no, you said one instruction was banned
19:56:39 <asiekierka> even crashes/halts.
19:56:43 <tusho> my instruction is "hello world & halt"
19:56:45 <tusho> not "halt"
19:56:49 <asiekierka> any form of finishing the program
19:57:00 <asiekierka> also, you can't combine instructions
19:57:00 <tusho> then it's even less like a -1 instruction set computer
19:57:04 <tusho> you can only ban one instruction.
19:57:09 <tusho> not one bit of functionality.
19:57:15 <asiekierka> -1 instruction set computer. Haha.
19:57:25 <asiekierka> Hahaha.
19:57:28 <asiekierka> Hahahahahaahahahaha.
19:57:33 <asiekierka> Muahaahahaha!
19:57:50 <tusho> What.
19:58:16 <asiekierka> I said it's an negative one instruction set computer. See? I say the set is "anything with a halt/crash/finishing the program"
19:58:37 <tusho> Then it's a negative infinity instruction set computer.
19:58:42 <tusho> There are infinite instructions which can halt.
19:58:47 <tusho> There's also infinite "other instructions".
19:58:52 <tusho> So it's -inf+inf instruction set computer.
19:59:09 <asiekierka> let's not complicate it too much
19:59:11 <asiekierka> PLEASE.
19:59:21 <asiekierka> Just call it NOISC and that's all.
20:00:01 <tusho> No.
20:00:04 <tusho> It's not very interesting.
20:00:10 <asiekierka> But NOISC sounds cool
20:00:21 <tusho> It's "EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD, apart from everything that halts the program"
20:00:26 <tusho> It's not negative instructions, it's just silly.
20:00:51 <asiekierka> ok
20:01:03 <asiekierka> so it'll be -I+IISC
20:01:16 <asiekierka> or EITW_afethtp
20:02:27 <tusho> But it's not implementable, usable, interesting, or hard, or anything really
20:02:52 <asiekierka> what about a IIC
20:02:56 <asiekierka> Infinite Instruction CPU
20:03:28 <asiekierka> oh
20:03:28 <asiekierka> of
20:03:29 <asiekierka> or
20:03:33 <asiekierka> i meant, or.
20:03:39 <asiekierka> OR IIuHC
20:03:46 <asiekierka> Infinite Instruction un-Haltable CPU
20:04:56 <AnMaster> hm
20:42:16 <tusho> brb
20:46:46 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when  "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly lagged. | Rules: 1. Rule 2 is false. 2. If Rule 1 is true, Rule 3 is false. 3. If i'm false, rule 2 is false too..
21:01:15 <ihope> Assume rule 1 is true. This means rule 2 is false, meaning Rules 1 and 3 are both true.
21:01:54 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when  "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly lagged. | Rules: 1. Every rule but this one is true. 2. I'm false, while rule 1 is true.
21:02:13 <ihope> Assume rule 1 is false. This means rule 2 is true, but we already knew that. If rule 3 is false, it's false but 2 is true; if it's true, no consequence.
21:02:45 <ihope> Now that's inconsistent.
21:02:51 <tusho> asiekierka
21:02:53 <tusho> not this again
21:03:03 <tusho> this is the second time you've made stupid "self-contradicting" rulesets
21:03:07 <tusho> and spammed the channel with them
21:03:30 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when  "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly lagged. | Rules: 1. Tusho is always right. 2. If tusho is right, Rule 1 is false..
21:03:37 <tusho> No asiekierka.
21:03:38 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when  "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly lagged..
21:03:39 <tusho> Stop.
21:03:42 <tusho> Thanks.
21:03:43 <SimonRC> lol
21:03:58 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when  "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This channel is publicly la--you mean SPAMMED..
21:04:21 <tusho> factor love [ honk ] when  "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This topic is publicly changed by asiekierka, constantly.
21:04:25 -!- tusho has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when  "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This topic is publicly changed by asiekierka, constantly..
21:04:41 -!- asiekierka has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when  "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity | This topic is publicly cha--you mean SPAMMED by asiekierka, constantly..
21:06:42 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:09:52 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:19:29 <AnMaster> I got nfs working \o/
21:26:07 <Tritonio_> ihope
21:33:27 -!- Tritonio_ has set topic: factor love [ honk ] when  "http://vjn.cc/x" logs >>url | #esoteric: measured on an entirely different scale of insanity. | This topic is publicly cha--you mean SPAMMED by asiekierka, constantly..
21:33:38 <Tritonio_> oops. i didn't knew I could change it...
21:35:25 -!- tusho has set topic: HTTP://VJN.CC/X <Tritonio_> oops. i didn't knew I could change it....
21:35:34 <Tritonio_> :-D
21:36:47 -!- Corun has joined.
21:45:28 <tusho> here's the deal: change the topic to the line your client outputs to tell you i've changed the topic
21:45:30 -!- tusho has set topic: http://vjn.cc/x.
21:46:43 -!- Tritonio_ has set topic: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x.
21:46:59 <Tritonio_> do you need the asterisc too?
21:47:07 <tusho> sure
21:47:12 -!- tusho has set topic: Topic changed to "* tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x" by Tritonio_..
21:47:15 -!- SimonRC has set topic: "-!- Tritonio_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x".
21:47:16 <Tritonio_> the timestamp which i ignored?
21:47:18 <SimonRC> oops
21:47:21 <tusho> 'sok SimonRC
21:47:26 <tusho> Tritonio_: don't put in timestamps
21:47:26 -!- Tritonio_ has set topic: * SimonRC has changed the topic to: "-!- Tritonio_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x".
21:47:41 -!- tusho has set topic: Topic changed to "* SimonRC has changed the topic to: "-!- Tritonio_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x"" by Tritonio_..
21:48:55 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:49:34 <Tritonio_> we should do a poll to see where we come from... Something like that (put website name here, the default is frap) map that used to be...
21:49:51 <tusho> whoa ... symbolics.com was the first domain name
21:49:53 <SimonRC> that is probably still about
21:49:54 <tusho> yes, the lisp machine symbolics
21:49:56 <tusho> and it still exists
21:50:04 <Tritonio_> tusho, ??????????????????
21:50:11 <tusho> Tritonio_: what
21:50:40 <Tritonio_> what lisp machine symbolics??? :-D
21:50:48 <Tritonio_> oooooo
21:50:50 <Tritonio_> sorry
21:50:55 <Tritonio_> missed a line.... ;-)
21:51:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:57:49 <oerjan> <tusho> ihope: Okay. You can have all the 1 million dollars.
21:57:59 <tusho> what
21:58:21 <oerjan> you _are_ aware that they stripped 10 digits off Z$ just yesterday?
21:58:41 <oerjan> so that could be more expensive than you thought
21:58:50 <tusho> oerjan: oh dear
21:59:05 <tusho> oerjan: i wasn't aware, no
21:59:29 -!- ihope has set topic: tusho has changed the topic to ``Topic changed to "* SimonRC has changed the topic to: "-!- Tritonio_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x"" by Tritonio_.''.
21:59:46 -!- ihope has set topic: =-=tusho has changed the topic to ``Topic changed to "* SimonRC has changed the topic to: "-!- Tritonio_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: * tusho has changed the topic to: http://vjn.cc/x"" by Tritonio_.''.
21:59:55 <oerjan> otoh 100 million wasn't enough to buy bread, last i recall
21:59:55 <tusho> oerjan: so how much do I owe ihope
22:00:01 <oerjan> hm
22:01:18 <oerjan> google doesn't seem to do ZWD
22:01:43 <oerjan> so now, 10 Z$ still isn't enough to buy bread i assume
22:01:57 <oerjan> er wait
22:02:01 <oerjan> 100 billion
22:02:41 <SimonRC> yes
22:02:43 <tusho> ok, so it's probably like £10
22:02:54 <tusho> no wait
22:02:57 <tusho> much less
22:03:01 <SimonRC> yes
22:03:29 <tusho> dudes, let's go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouvet_Island
22:03:31 <tusho> :D
22:05:37 <oerjan> official rate 7.58 on Aug 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollar#Third_Dollar_2)
22:06:02 <tusho> oh. err.
22:06:04 <tusho> that's quite a lot then
22:06:32 <oerjan> so 1000000 Z$ probably was then about 131000 USD
22:06:42 <tusho> fuck.
22:06:46 <oerjan> although the _real_ rate is higher
22:07:28 <oerjan> 61 it says
22:07:32 <oerjan> (today)
22:08:01 <oerjan> 16393 USD
22:10:33 <oerjan> bouvet island is norwegian btw
22:11:08 <SimonRC> that would just be the greatest place to have a domain
22:11:24 <SimonRC> why doesn't it use .no anyway?
22:12:14 <oerjan> beats me.  it's so remote even norwegians rarely think about it :D
22:12:14 <tusho> we should establish "esoterica" on bouvet island
22:12:25 <tusho> and claim independence from norway
22:12:30 <tusho> and take over the domain
22:12:41 <tusho> and ummm try and survive on the most remote island in the world while freezing to death
22:12:43 <tusho> and then die!
22:12:53 <oerjan> sounds like a plan to me
22:16:45 <oerjan> here's something relevant: http://www.norid.no/domenenavnbaser/bv-sj.html
22:17:37 <oerjan> presumably it has something to do with its being a territory and not a part of the kingdom proper.
22:18:03 -!- tritonio__ has joined.
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22:18:07 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:20:04 <SimonRC> surely setting up a mad scientist base out there is more fun?
22:20:15 <tusho> SimonRC: we could do that before dying
22:21:11 <oerjan> mad scientists could even do it afterwards
22:21:24 <oerjan> Brains...
22:21:57 <oerjan> although there may be a shortage of (human) brains on the island
22:22:31 <SimonRC> all one needs to do that is a plan to take over the world and a large amount of money
22:23:20 <tusho> urghhh
22:23:23 <tusho> stupid Agora.
22:23:29 <tusho> thinking speech acts have truth values
22:23:53 <SimonRC> explain?
22:23:57 <tusho> even michael norrish posted to say that they're all wrong
22:24:10 <tusho> SimonRC: they are stating that actions like
22:24:13 <tusho> "I transfer X to Y"
22:24:16 <tusho> have defined truth values
22:24:22 <tusho> this is relvant because until recently there was a rule stating
22:24:29 <tusho> that you can't make a statement that you don't believe to be true to a public forum
22:24:39 <tusho> this is outrageous - it means that failing actions are illegal
22:24:53 <tusho> so i've just been decided GUILTY for a failing action
22:25:13 <tusho> that rule was repealed, but CFJs apply to when they were called
22:25:18 <SimonRC> what tense did you say it in?
22:25:44 <tusho> SimonRC: it was "I register" (long story)
22:25:55 <SimonRC> ah
22:26:02 <SimonRC> ok
22:26:11 <tusho> oerjan played Agora, maybe he can share in my outrage
22:26:48 * SimonRC tries to remember what that is called
22:27:10 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!!!!!!!! does this help?
22:27:19 <SimonRC> maybe that tense/mood/case doesn't have a name; one only encounters it in role-playing and the like, usually
22:27:29 <tusho> oerjan: depends, was it sincere
22:27:35 <oerjan> no
22:27:48 <tusho> oerjan: then no
22:27:53 <oerjan> aww
22:29:15 <oerjan> SimonRC: i vaguely recall having heard a name.  but not what it was. :D
22:29:57 <oerjan> maybe it was in agora
22:29:58 * SimonRC just asked elsenet
22:30:43 <oerjan> oh, maybe it was just "speech acts"
22:31:10 <tusho> oerjan: do you agree that they don't have truth values?
22:31:18 <tusho> and that being punished for a failing action is redonkulous
22:32:01 <oerjan> wp leads on from "speech acts" to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illocutionary_act
22:35:05 <oerjan> also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_utterance which in fact discusses this true/false question!
22:35:40 <SimonRC> other things that were suggested elsenet:  present, Narrative tense, roleplayative
22:35:49 <SimonRC> handy
22:36:23 * tusho wonders if oerjan is still subscribed to the agora lists
22:36:31 * tusho wonders if -anyone- has been subscribed since 1993 continuously
22:37:11 <oerjan> i'm technically subscribed, but only the backup lists are set to deliver
22:37:37 <tusho> heh
22:37:42 <tusho> why the backups?
22:38:04 <oerjan> just for the occasional nostalgic reminder i guess
22:38:17 <tusho> the backups were used a few months ago
22:38:17 <tusho> iirc
22:38:28 <oerjan> yes
22:38:48 <SimonRC> "backups"?
22:39:46 <tusho> SimonRC: agora's lists go down every now and then
22:39:52 <tusho> there are two extra lists that are used in that case
22:41:41 <SimonRC> ok
22:41:47 <oerjan> tusho: from quickly browsing that last wikipedia article it is clear that philosophers disagree on whether such statements have truth values or not
22:42:09 <tusho> meh.
22:42:17 <tusho> i definitely believe they don't
22:42:23 <tusho> either way, it should be specialcased
22:42:31 <tusho> so that failing actions aren't illegal
22:42:37 <tusho> the truth rule is gone now anyway so
22:47:49 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving.").
22:50:36 <oerjan> btw according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_valued_currency_unit the vietnamese dong is probably now the lowest value currency
22:52:14 <tusho> oerjan: why, are they really s*hot*
22:52:37 <oerjan> ?
22:52:56 <tusho> it was a crude joke on the name of the currency
22:53:02 <oerjan> gah
22:53:05 <tusho> and s*hot* was s*shot*, sans redundancy
22:54:16 <oerjan> btw, "In Vietnamese, dong literally means copper"
22:55:58 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
22:56:42 <tusho> oerjan: those vietnamese sure have weird bodies
22:57:42 <oerjan> "Since 2003, Vietnam has replaced its cotton banknotes with plastic polymer banknotes, which it claims will save money[6]. Many newspapers in the country criticized these changes, citing mistakes in printing and alleging that the son of the governor of the State Bank of Vietnam benefited from printing contracts[6]. The government clamped down on these criticisms by banning two newspapers from publishing for a month and considering other sanctions on 
22:58:08 <tusho> on...
22:58:37 <oerjan> ?
22:58:59 <oerjan> i just found the last sentence .. fueled my prejudices :D
22:59:06 <tusho> it ended with "on"
22:59:10 <tusho> "ring other sanctions on"
22:59:13 <oerjan> oh
22:59:23 <oerjan> ..  on other newspapers."
23:00:08 <oerjan> darn irc giving no cutoff warning :(
23:10:53 -!- ErkiDerLoony has joined.
23:11:02 <pikhq> Told ya.
23:11:42 <oerjan> when?
23:12:05 <pikhq> oerjan: That was for ErkiDerLoony, actually.
23:12:16 <pikhq> Who has come to us courtesy of ##brainfuck.
23:12:35 <pikhq> Population Gregor, ErkiDerLoony, Chanserv, and I.
23:13:20 <ErkiDerLoony> Yeah well, I just found the wiki article about brainfuck. And tried it. :)
23:13:30 <pikhq> Ah.
23:13:34 <pikhq> Fun stuff.
23:13:44 <pikhq> That, BTW, is how a lot of us started on esoteric languages.
23:13:45 <pikhq> (most?)
23:14:24 <SimonRC> I still remember the NewScientist side-box that mentionned BF
23:14:32 <SimonRC> 'twas the only one I could recall the name of
23:15:36 <ErkiDerLoony> pikhq: So you started with BF. What are you doing today?
23:15:51 <pikhq> Just got done watching a movie...
23:15:57 <pikhq> ATM, I'm just sitting on IRC.
23:16:18 <ErkiDerLoony> ;)
23:16:26 <ErkiDerLoony> I'm playing with my new KDE 4.1.
23:16:30 <pikhq> Ah.
23:16:46 <ErkiDerLoony> And I'm going to watch some episode of Knight Rider right away.
23:16:53 <pikhq> I don't have the hard drive space for that yet.
23:16:59 <pikhq> Still waiting on 4 100G drives.
23:17:58 <tusho> hi ErkiDerLoony
23:18:02 <tusho> you can never leave now
23:18:47 <ErkiDerLoony> You mean this channel or programming in esoteric languages?
23:18:54 <pikhq> Both.
23:18:56 <tusho> both
23:19:04 <ErkiDerLoony> ;)
23:20:08 <SimonRC> you can "svn co", but you can never "svn leave"
23:20:15 <oerjan> also we would say you are now officially mad, except your nick indicates you already know
23:20:29 <tusho> SimonRC: svn?
23:20:32 <tusho> how primitive.
23:20:39 <pikhq> Git.
23:20:45 <tusho> You can "git clone", but you can never "rm -r".
23:20:58 <pikhq> SVN is at least a bit like having discovered fire...
23:20:58 <oerjan> pikhq: no need to be rude
23:21:07 <tusho> oerjan: that was a joke right
23:21:09 <SimonRC> ErkiDerLoony: not related to "Mad Eric", the guiness world record holder for most stuff in pockets, are you?
23:21:31 <tusho> oerjan: please say that was a joke?
23:21:33 <oerjan> tusho: IMPOSSIBLE
23:21:34 <pikhq> Primitive, but a hell of a lot better than those CVS or RCS tribes.
23:21:38 <tusho> Phew.
23:21:38 <tusho> :P
23:21:45 <pikhq> (for those tribes: the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys.)
23:21:52 <SimonRC> CVS = pain
23:21:56 <SimonRC> from my experience
23:21:57 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
23:22:00 <tusho> pikhq: I see your hhgttg quote.
23:22:02 <tusho> I see it done good.
23:22:08 <tusho> Anyway, real men use SCCS .
23:22:10 <tusho> And ed.
23:22:31 <pikhq> tusho: :)
23:22:48 <tusho> Well, ed is a bit too non-unixy.
23:22:54 <tusho> Even 'awk' is pushing it.
23:23:03 <pikhq> ed is non-unixy?
23:23:08 <tusho> 'sed' and 'cat' are really the only "unixy" manipulation tools.
23:23:20 <tusho> Because they operate as command-line based pipes which work on tiny tiny languages
23:23:23 <tusho> (cat's language is the identity function)
23:23:39 <pikhq> *cat*?
23:23:41 <pikhq> Psssh.
23:23:48 <tusho> pikhq: actually i'm being serious here
23:23:55 <pikhq> Unless you're concatenating stuff, cat is overdoing it.
23:23:56 <tusho> obviously the unix philosophy doesn't work in its pure form
23:24:11 <tusho> because 'sed' and 'cat' are basically the unixy text manipulation tools
23:24:18 <pikhq> <.bashrc
23:24:20 <tusho> and, of course, editing with just them would be hell
23:24:39 <oerjan> pikhq: echo >
23:24:49 <pikhq> Though, to be honest, <.zshrc would be more *appropriate*.
23:25:09 <tusho> cat, echo, sed: the UNIX suite of text manipulation tools
23:25:11 <tusho> Also known as "hell".
23:25:19 <pikhq> I use Zsh. "<.zshrc" actually outputs .zshrc. Paginated.
23:26:24 <tusho> pikhq: Which happens to be un-unixy.
23:26:31 <tusho> What i'm trying to say is that the unix philosophy is nice but it has major flaws.
23:26:52 <tusho> A mix of classic mac os / plan 9 / unix would probably not be such a bad OS.
23:27:02 <tusho> OS X is probably the closest operating system to that that you can use practically today
23:27:05 <pikhq> tusho: The Z shell is, I think, just calling $PAGER with stdin.
23:27:27 <pikhq> Granted, the Z shell is otherwise completely un-Unixy.
23:27:42 <pikhq> (it is an editor. And an FTP client. And Tetris.)
23:28:05 <tusho> I have both emacs, z shell and firefox installed here.
23:28:09 <tusho> And also qemu with loads of OS'.
23:28:13 <tusho> I have a lot of operating systems on here ;)
23:28:51 <pikhq> ;)
23:37:50 -!- ErkiDerLoony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:39:53 <pikhq> he left!
23:44:09 <tusho> :O
23:46:32 * SimonRC reads The Effects of Moore's Law and Slacking on Large Computations http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/9912/9912202v1.pdf
23:46:49 <psygnisfive> simonrc: summarize?
23:47:25 <SimonRC> sometimes you get work done faster by waiting for a better computer before you start work
23:52:21 <tusho> bye for today
23:52:26 -!- tusho has quit.
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2008-08-03:

00:19:37 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
00:37:13 -!- adu has joined.
00:38:13 <adu> the topic is confusing
00:38:38 -!- oerjan has set topic: confusing.
00:38:43 * SimonRC goes to bed.
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00:57:10 <CakeProphet> does anyone know where I can get a good implementation of the Mersenne Twister PRNG for C?
00:57:53 -!- Corun has joined.
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01:19:21 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
01:32:33 <adu> PRNG?
01:32:45 <pikhq> Psuedorandom number generator.
01:33:53 <oerjan> PRN generator.  a really twisted one.
01:38:18 <adu> http://www.math.sci.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/~m-mat/MT/SFMT/index.html
01:39:07 <adu> I have no idea what you guys are talking about, but I still know how to use google
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03:16:35 <CakeProphet> I think I'm going to learn some Haskell
03:17:37 * oerjan recommends the #haskell channel
03:18:10 <oerjan> (not because it's not allowed here, just because that's a very friendly channel)
03:18:36 <oerjan> even if large.  hm i haven't checked it in a while.
03:19:21 <CakeProphet> basically I want to become more eclectic in my language influences
03:19:38 <CakeProphet> so I can make more even more esoteric esolangs. :D
03:19:54 <CakeProphet> any other recommendations?
03:20:17 <oerjan> prolog or another logic language, obviously
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03:46:10 <CakeProphet> so far I've got Haskell, Mathematica, Prolog, and Erlang on my list.
03:47:34 <oerjan> lisp or scheme if somehow you don't know those already
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04:47:26 <psygnisfive> hmm
04:47:30 <psygnisfive> question question
04:48:21 <psygnisfive> im working on a language somewhat different from what i've done before, right
04:50:16 <psygnisfive> and i've got a parse for a CFG that looks something like [S, s, A, a, b, C, c, d, e] on rules like S -> sABe
04:50:29 <psygnisfive> how would i build this sort of thing into an abstract syntax tree? :|
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05:02:17 <psygnisf_> please add the logs to the topic
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05:04:13 <adu> lol
05:04:28 <adu> i love the topic :)
05:04:37 <adu> now its really confusing
05:05:42 <psygnisfive> it also needs to have links to the logs otherwise we're in violation of freenode policy
05:07:38 <adu> you mean http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric
05:07:52 <adu> or is there another place?
05:16:29 <Ilari> psygnisfive: What's best way to construct abstract syntax tree depends bit on nature of the CFG...
05:16:45 <psygnisfive> nevermind. im just going back to my normal way of parsing :p
05:16:54 <psygnisfive> i was doing a different parse method
05:16:58 <psygnisfive> no tokenization first
05:17:20 <psygnisfive> which made it more frustrating to parse, and harder to do a tree-build on
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07:48:06 <psygnisfive> woo
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09:30:45 <psygnisfive> night guys
09:42:49 <adu> night
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11:20:15 <tusho> it occurs to me in many types of data collections (forums, feed readers, blogs etc) the most common & useful operation is 'view next unread'
11:20:31 <tusho> a few feed readers rightly focus on that operation, but forums and blogs and everything else seem to just totally ignore it
11:20:31 <tusho> a shame
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11:59:34 <Ilari> tusho: It requires potentially unbounded per-user state, so implementing it in multiuser environments is bit hairy...
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12:44:17 <tusho> Ilari: most forums track read/unread state
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13:16:39 <Ilari> tusho: Then one has to be able to search those states (without doing linear walk, which would be too expensive)...
13:38:12 <tusho> Ilari: Er, no.
13:38:19 <tusho> You just have to sort by last read (which forum index pages already do)
13:38:24 <tusho> then jump to the next one
13:43:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm sorry but I have been extremely busy this weekend
13:43:33 <AnMaster> no time to debug
13:43:44 <AnMaster> I will try to find the bug as soon as I have time
13:43:49 <AnMaster> bbl
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14:06:56 <tusho> i lost the game
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15:34:08 <tusho> fax hasn't been online for 13 weeks
15:34:08 <tusho> :(
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15:49:51 <tusho> [[[Why do you call it "blog" if people can't post comments?]]] - someone on reddit
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17:01:45 <psygnisfive> tusho: that's a silly question for someone to ask.
17:02:23 <tusho> psygnisfive: Actually I quoted it because it's a sensible & reasonable thing to ask.
17:02:24 <tusho> Totally.
17:02:37 <psygnisfive> :P
17:25:04 <tusho> brb
17:28:32 <SimonRC> hm
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17:45:52 <Mony> hi there
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18:13:21 <tusho> hi Mony
18:13:35 <tusho> who are you
18:13:37 <tusho> :P
18:18:11 <tusho> Mony: pin
18:18:11 <tusho> g
18:22:44 <SimonRC> Should being a good roleplayer make one cringe?
18:23:53 <SimonRC> I am just about to have a character whose L1 is not English say "Exploiting the stupid is fun to me." instead of "Exploiting the stupidity is fun to me.".
18:24:24 <tusho> SimonRC: I think it just makes you a tremendous nerd, actually.
18:24:41 <tusho> :)
18:24:57 <SimonRC> It's a distinctly non-human person.
18:25:23 <tusho> SimonRC: as opposed to non-distinctly non-human?
18:25:30 <SimonRC> yeah
18:25:37 <tusho> :P
18:25:46 <SimonRC> After a year or so of them being quiet, I think I ought to play up their unhuman side.
18:26:19 <tusho> SimonRC: make them start speaking in a conlang
18:26:31 <SimonRC> no-one would understand it
18:26:31 <tusho> when faced with confusion, reply in another conlang
18:26:33 <tusho> :D
18:27:54 <SimonRC> :rolleyes:
18:30:20 <Mony> hum...
18:30:26 <Mony> sorry i was eating
18:30:32 <Mony> i'm a young french :D
18:30:37 <tusho> eating? inexcusable :P
18:30:57 <Mony> :p
18:34:09 <Mony> i'm interrested making my own esoteric language
18:34:21 <tusho> that's ... not exactly uncommon here
18:34:22 <tusho> :P
18:34:53 <Mony> :P
18:35:06 <SimonRC> Mony: be sure to look through the wiki
18:35:07 <Mony> but, i think it's a bit difficult
18:35:19 <tusho> not really
18:35:21 <tusho> it's quite easy
18:35:27 <tusho> what languages do you know?
18:35:35 <Mony> C
18:35:48 <tusho> ah, a masochist :)
18:36:02 <Mony> i want to make a ...
18:36:06 <Mony> what's the word...
18:36:07 <tusho> well, a lot of esolang interps are written in more higher-level languages simply beacuse it makes it easier to hack up one
18:36:13 <tusho> but if you know C that works fine too
18:36:15 <Mony> interpreter, does it correct ?
18:36:33 <SimonRC> interpreter might be the right word
18:36:37 <tusho> yes
18:36:41 <Mony> ok ^^
18:36:42 <tusho> interpreter runs a program
18:37:03 <SimonRC> but a compiler turn the program into another form, so you can run it later
18:37:15 <Mony> yeah, i know
18:37:24 <Mony> the easier is a interpreter
18:37:52 <Mony> so...
18:38:07 <tusho> Mony: any lang in particular? or your own?
18:38:13 <tusho> design a language first, then implement it, obviously ;)
18:38:29 <Mony> i'm searching for something who will make my language different
18:38:42 <SimonRC> good luck
18:38:51 <Mony> thx...
18:39:04 <SimonRC> I recommend reading about the weirdest existing languages you can
18:39:11 <SimonRC> both serious and eso
18:39:33 <tusho> Mony: we're suckers for interesting ideas
18:39:38 <tusho> i'm sure you'll pick up something from this channel
18:39:43 <SimonRC> that will give you ideas
18:40:44 <Mony> i want to make a very very very strange language
18:41:01 <SimonRC> that could be hard
18:41:14 <Mony> like, u have only 1 number
18:41:41 <tusho> Mony: the problem is most strange languages are kind of trivial
18:41:42 <tusho> :)
18:41:53 <SimonRC> in that case, it must have weirder control flow than Bullfrog, weirder data than unlambda, and weirder syntax than J/K/APL
18:42:03 <Mony> ^^
18:42:22 <tusho> SimonRC: at which point it'd not be very interesting, just difficult
18:42:23 <tusho> :P
18:42:34 <Mony> SimonRC... i don't understand all ur sentence...
18:42:35 <SimonRC> and it must be eviller than Malbolge
18:42:45 <tusho> Mony: Bullfrog, unlambda, are esolangs
18:42:53 <tusho> J, K and APL are all serious languages but they're very strange
18:43:07 <tusho> Malbolge is an almost-impossible-to-program in esolang.
18:43:10 <tusho> use the wiki :)
18:43:24 <SimonRC> Unlambda is one of the foundation esolanguages
18:44:12 <SimonRC> if a university did an esolangs course, you would learn about at least most of Unlambda, Befunge, Brainfuck, Malbolge, and INTERCAL
18:45:01 <SimonRC> I didn't mean Bullfrog, I meant SMITH
18:45:10 <Mony> the problem now, is the language, i'm french, and my english is not perfect
18:45:26 <Mony> it's hard to understand all ur sentence, and all the wiki
18:45:26 <tusho> Mony: we'll explain any english you don't get
18:45:27 <tusho> just ask :)
18:45:37 <Mony> ok :)
18:45:37 <tusho> also who removed the log url from the topic...
18:45:41 -!- tusho has set topic: http://vjn.cc/x.
18:47:01 -!- tusho has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:47:28 <Mony> Whitespace language rox !
18:47:28 <Mony> xD
18:47:35 <tusho> it's fun
18:48:44 <tusho> 21:05:42 <psygnisfive> it also needs to have links to the logs otherwise we're in violation of freenode policy
18:48:45 <tusho> it did
18:48:50 <tusho> oh, wait
18:48:55 <tusho> that was after it became 'confusing'
18:48:59 <psygnisfive> yes.
18:49:11 <tusho> i wonder if rot13'd urls would count
18:49:14 <tusho> if you stated that it was rot13'df
18:49:18 <tusho> what if it was a one time pad?
18:49:40 <SimonRC> lol
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18:51:44 <Mony> do u know goto++ ?
18:52:09 <SimonRC> I have heard of it
18:52:16 <SimonRC> it is the French esolang
18:52:26 <SimonRC> also one of the few French programming language
18:52:27 <SimonRC> s
18:53:06 <Mony> http://www.gotopp.org/presentation.html.fr
18:53:11 <tusho> SimonRC: ocaml
18:53:14 <tusho> eiffel
18:53:16 <tusho> i could go on
18:53:19 <Mony> it's funny too
18:53:45 <SimonRC> I thought OCaml's keywords were in English
18:53:54 <tusho> ah, I see
18:53:57 <Mony> here is in english http://www.gotopp.org/presentation.html.en
18:55:49 <SimonRC> lolol
18:55:59 <tusho> (this fabulous language)
18:55:59 <SimonRC> "Manipulate the references (equivalent to pointers) to do a lot of bugs."
18:56:28 <SimonRC> "If you need it, the manual is here. Not "here" but on the word manal. So you can click here too. When I say "here", I mean on the second word "manual". Oh et puis merde!"
18:56:29 <tusho> holy shit
18:56:31 <tusho> it has its own domain
18:56:32 <tusho> gotopp.org
18:56:47 <tusho> http://www.gotopp.org/index.html NEWS REPORTS
18:56:51 <tusho> that's just overboard
18:57:04 <tusho> ...
18:57:05 <tusho> screenshots.
19:08:19 <SimonRC> oh wow, it uses � for scientific notation
19:09:53 <SimonRC> hehehe:  "Les cha�nes de caract�res sont des cha�nes de caract�res. Difficile d'�tre plus clair."
19:10:21 <Mony> lol
19:10:33 <SimonRC> ("Strings of characters are strings of characters.  It's hard to be clearer than that."
19:11:13 <SimonRC> )
19:13:23 <Deewiant> tusho: eiffel is from the USA
19:13:31 <tusho> Deewiant: is it okay
19:13:47 <Deewiant> it is!
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19:58:32 * SimonRC goes.
20:05:13 <AnMaster> tusho, seen ais?
20:05:17 <tusho> AnMaster: it's sunday
20:05:22 <AnMaster> ah true
20:05:27 <tusho> ais is not here on saturday or sunday
20:05:28 <tusho> :\
20:05:36 <AnMaster> anyway that was a bloody bad thunderstorm
20:05:38 <AnMaster> power went out
20:05:45 <AnMaster> in a large part of the town
20:09:31 <Deewiant> just now, or what?
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20:42:15 <ihope> I sense doubt about the correctness of sin = i!(1 - i!sin).
20:42:17 <ihope> :-P
20:45:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no before
20:45:08 <AnMaster> when I was disconnected
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21:22:51 <tusho> f
21:22:52 <tusho> f
21:22:52 <tusho> f
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21:59:10 <ihope> tusho: f
21:59:16 <tusho> ihope: f
21:59:22 <ihope> Wait, this isn't ##physics, so never mind.
21:59:37 <tusho> ihope: join ##physics and it shall be so!
21:59:54 <ihope> Sori.
22:00:02 <tusho> ihope: Otherwise I'll murder you.
22:00:06 <tusho> Murderously.
22:01:09 <ihope> I espic huiz acsent nao, �oqu�?
22:01:35 <tusho> ihope: f.
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22:13:34 <ihope> Efe.
22:18:27 <tusho> ihope: fffff
22:20:44 <ihope> Efe efe efe efe efe.
22:25:53 <ihope> We really need to come up with a way to say "Doing X will not help." than "Step 1: Do X. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit!"
22:26:03 <ihope> A better way, even.
22:27:58 <tusho> ihope: how about "Doing X will not help."
22:29:23 <ihope> That isn't catchy.
22:29:51 <tusho> ihope: "X: Brilliant Idea!"
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22:50:31 <oerjan> <tusho> fax hasn't been online for 13 weeks
22:50:41 <tusho> faxasthisia
22:50:52 <oerjan> i vaguely recall seeing him change his nick
22:50:53 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
22:50:58 <tusho> really?
22:50:59 <tusho> to what?
22:51:21 <oerjan> my vague recalls are getting less useful recently :D
22:52:03 <oerjan> also, there is not s before the th, i think
22:52:07 <oerjan> *no
22:52:12 <tusho> oerjan: combine it with loggrepping skills!
22:52:37 <oerjan> otoh i _could_ be confusing him with you
22:53:51 <tusho> probably
22:55:14 <oerjan> also, that would require me to actually _keep_ private logs.  or possibly to register at ircbrowse, iirc.
22:55:42 <tusho> oerjan: wget --mirror http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/
22:55:45 <tusho> grep term *
22:56:04 <tusho> (terminate the wget when it starts downloading stupid things like alternate directory listings and the parent directories ofc)
22:56:12 <Mony> who've got his own language here ?
22:56:18 <tusho> also ircbrowse is down
22:56:24 <tusho> Mony: esolangs are generally cheap
22:56:28 <tusho> there are people in here with more than 10
22:56:34 * oerjan raises his hand sort of
22:56:35 <tusho> because you can design & implement them in a few hours to a few days
22:56:39 * tusho has a few
22:57:15 <Mony> ok ^^
22:57:52 <oerjan> Mony: several of us have accounts at the esolangs wiki, you can check there
22:58:23 <Mony> when u speak about the wiki, is it Wikipedia ?
22:58:29 <oerjan> no!
22:58:37 <Mony> oh...
22:58:39 <oerjan> esolangs.org
22:59:12 <oerjan> wikipedia doesn't allow single person projects, esolangs does
22:59:20 <Mony> yeah
22:59:45 <oerjan> (or rather, wikipedia doesn't allow them unless they are actually famous)
22:59:53 <oerjan> like brainfuck
23:00:38 <tusho> Mony: http://esolangs.org/wiki/
23:00:39 <oerjan> esolangs uses the same software though, if a bit out of date
23:00:59 <tusho> (don't ask about the slices of lime)
23:01:00 <oerjan> and with some options turned off
23:01:18 * oerjan asks about the slices of lime
23:01:52 * tusho feeds oerjan to a goat
23:02:19 <oerjan> AYEEH
23:05:38 <ihope> Mony: ello.
23:05:45 <ihope> I've made a few languages.
23:05:46 <Mony> hi
23:05:51 <Mony> really ?
23:06:19 <tusho> Mony: most of us have
23:06:24 <tusho> it's really easy, honestly ;)
23:06:36 <Mony> i'm going to try
23:06:39 <Mony> ^^
23:06:41 <tusho> you just get a silly idea, write a mostly-okay description, then quickly hack up an implementation
23:06:44 <tusho> few hours to a few days
23:06:53 <tusho> Mony: you might want to learn a higher-level language than C
23:07:02 <oerjan> some of us leave out the implementation (:C
23:07:13 <tusho> since generally if you're quickly implementing the idea you don't wanna bother with stuff like memory management
23:07:15 <tusho> oerjan: :)
23:07:36 <Mony> a silly idea
23:07:39 <Mony> ... hum...
23:07:52 <tusho> Mony: also trying to hard to think of a silly idea is probably a bad idea :)
23:07:55 <Mony> i'm the creator of the silly compo on Dev-fr.org xD
23:08:14 <tusho> being in #esoteric generally has dangerous side-effects like silly ideas :D
23:08:28 <Mony> lol
23:09:09 <Mony> hum.. i've got an idea
23:09:27 <Mony> u will see ;)
23:12:35 * SimonRC liked Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.
23:12:38 * SimonRC goes to bed.
23:12:51 <tusho> Mony: oh?
23:13:14 <Mony> please, wait some minuts
23:13:18 <Mony> ;)
23:13:41 <tusho> Mony: generally we mention our ideas here immediately
23:13:43 <tusho> so that we can improve on htem
23:13:46 <tusho> or point out any serious flaws
23:14:31 <Mony> ok... but it's a bit difficult for me to explain in english :|
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23:15:23 * pikhq has a small handful.
23:15:34 * pikhq is behind the conversation. :p
23:16:04 <Mony> i think i'm going to say here sometime ^^
23:16:13 <tusho> Mony: so what's the idea?
23:16:16 <tusho> it's okay if you can't explain it fully
23:16:17 <tusho> :p
23:16:31 <Mony> you're nice, and, my english can be better then :)
23:16:40 <Mony> so, my idea :
23:16:53 <Mony> there only 1 number
23:17:02 <Mony> named "vab"
23:17:17 <tusho> mmhm
23:17:20 <Mony> there is somes instructions :
23:17:28 <tusho> is vab=0? or...
23:17:33 <Mony> yeah
23:17:38 <Mony> that's it
23:17:39 <Mony> and
23:17:50 <Mony> "+" add 1 to vab
23:18:18 <tusho> ah
23:18:18 <Mony> and, it's the same for the other basics like /, *, -
23:18:20 <tusho> there's one variable
23:18:27 <tusho> called vab
23:18:29 <tusho> that starts as 0
23:18:30 <Mony> yep
23:18:31 <tusho> int vab = 0;
23:18:38 <Mony> exactly
23:18:39 <tusho> Mony: *1 won't be very useful...
23:18:55 <Mony> no
23:18:56 <Mony> but
23:18:58 <Mony> *2
23:19:01 <Mony> and /2
23:19:03 <tusho> ah
23:19:07 <tusho> is there anything else to it?
23:19:11 <tusho> control structures and such
23:19:15 <tusho> (if, else, while and the like)
23:19:23 <Mony> in the future :p
23:19:25 <Mony> but
23:19:29 <tusho> sounds a little like deadfish to me right now :P http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish
23:19:44 <Mony> i'll put the print texte function
23:20:30 <pikhq> Well, if that's it...
23:20:39 <tusho> pikhq: hey, it's his first esolang
23:20:41 <tusho> don't be harsh
23:20:55 <pikhq> tusho: Actually, I was just going to say that I could have an implementation done quickly.
23:21:10 <tusho> Well yeah, I don't think an implementation is significantly hard :P
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23:21:13 <pikhq> It's simple, but an amusing concept, at least.
23:22:15 <tusho> int main(){char c;int vab=0;while(c=getchar()){switch(c){case '+':vab++;break;case '-':vab--;break;case '*':vab *= 2; break;case '/': vab /= 2; break;}};return 0;}
23:22:15 <tusho> :P
23:23:01 <Mony> that's it :P
23:23:14 * pikhq nods
23:23:26 <Mony> but
23:23:39 <Mony> there's some things differents
23:23:51 <tusho> oh?
23:23:58 <Mony> i put an drag'n'drog :p
23:24:14 <tusho> i don't see the relation of drag and drop to a language
23:24:15 <tusho> :P
23:24:30 <Mony> http://rafb.net/p/sBrbn810.html
23:24:50 <Mony> u drag the file, and u drop on the executable
23:24:57 <tusho> oh, it opens a file.
23:25:01 <tusho> lemme guess - you use windows
23:25:03 <Mony> yep
23:25:09 <Mony> yep :/
23:25:15 <tusho> if you drag a file on to an .exe it opens it with the filename as the first arg
23:25:18 <Mony> i'm a n00b with linux
23:25:22 <tusho> so it's more like "interprets a file"
23:25:26 <tusho> as opposed to "drag and drop" :P
23:25:41 <Mony> ^^
23:25:45 <tusho> Mony: p.s. "x = x OP y" is "x OP= y"
23:25:52 <tusho> vab = vab*2;                      vab *= 2;
23:25:56 <tusho> but I assume you knew
23:26:20 <Mony> oh, yes..
23:26:35 <Mony> not important yet :P
23:26:43 <tusho> not really :P
23:27:02 <Mony> so, now, i'm going to add print text function
23:27:44 <Mony> i remove printf("%d", vab);
23:27:46 <Mony> and
23:28:04 <Mony> if(buf == '$') printf("%c", vab);
23:28:43 <Mony> using decimal valors
23:29:18 <tusho> have fun :P
23:29:27 <tusho> Mony: your language isn't turing complete, yet
23:29:34 <tusho> in fact, it can't do anything but output constant strings
23:29:39 <tusho> you'll need to add some kind of loops
23:29:54 <Mony> yes, i know :/
23:30:08 <tusho> :)
23:31:08 <Mony> but... i'll do that tomorrow ^^
23:31:16 <pikhq> tusho: It's enough for 99 bottles of beer.
23:31:17 <pikhq> :p
23:31:29 <tusho> pikhq: Not a real one:P
23:35:21 <pikhq> tusho: It'll get the job done. :p
23:37:26 <Mony> wtf
23:37:36 <Mony> i already got some problems -_-
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23:37:58 <Mony> http://rafb.net/p/9T7NMl68.html
23:38:11 <Mony> hum...
23:38:24 <Mony> don't worry...
23:38:27 * Mony is a n00b
23:38:30 <Mony> be happy...
23:41:25 <pikhq> Might I recommend checking for end of file on fichier, instead of checking for the character ']'?
23:42:31 <Mony> EOF
23:42:58 <Mony> yeah, my language is useful already
23:43:06 <Mony> for mental calcul >_>
23:45:43 <oerjan> make buf an int, otherwise EOF checking is not portable
23:46:25 <oerjan> (the true EOF value is outside the bounds of char)
23:46:33 <Mony> ok...
23:48:38 <oerjan> hm, "fgetc() reads the next character from  stream  and  returns  it  as  an unsigned char cast to an int, or EOF on end of file or error.
23:49:25 <oerjan> doesn't this mean that on a system with signed chars comparing the result of fgetc with a character constant could fail?
23:49:51 <oerjan> (probably only with non-ASCII characters, but still)
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23:55:36 <Mony> hehe
23:55:37 <Mony> http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7450/stuffssxs8.jpg
23:56:00 <Mony> http://rafb.net/p/n2IXz562.html the source, only with +, and -
23:57:01 <Mony> so
23:57:04 <Mony> let's sleep
23:57:13 * tusho doesn't sleep
23:57:14 <Mony> see ya, and thank u guys ;)
23:57:18 <tusho> bye :D
23:57:20 * Mony is away: zZz
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2008-08-04:

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01:08:28 <tusho> http://www.haskell.org/sitewiki/images/0/0a/TMR-Issue10.pdf Haskell in Haskell.
01:08:31 <tusho> Intermediate language?
01:08:32 <tusho> Unlambda.
01:14:01 <oerjan> closer to Lazy K, i should think
01:14:20 <tusho> i was just quoting the reddit headline
01:14:30 <oerjan> ah
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01:26:14 <pikhq> Hahah. :)
01:27:07 <oerjan> THIS IS NO LAUGHING MATTER
02:02:24 -!- erus` has joined.
02:18:34 <ihope> Idea: You're a wolf. You communicate by howling or not howling. At any given time, you know how many wolves are howling. Try to figure out what your friend is saying.
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02:56:00 * Dewi looks around the channel for people called 'Idea'
02:57:17 <oerjan> probably just a horrible misspelling.  actually, "Dewi" looks sort of close.
03:10:29 <Dewi> oerjan: Can't be me. I communicate by howling, but I'm not a wolf.
03:11:16 <oerjan> well that's what _you_ think
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03:24:10 <pikhq> ihope: Unless the wolves use CDMA, I refuse.
03:24:27 <ihope> There, I just violated an Agoran contract.
03:24:38 <pikhq> Which contract?
03:25:01 <ihope> The pledge to ascend my current game of NetHack.
03:25:08 <pikhq> Ah.
03:25:18 <pikhq> Fool.
03:25:25 <pikhq> Where'd you die?
03:26:20 <ihope> On dungeon level 3, of course.
03:26:36 <ihope> That death was not nearly embarrassing enough.
03:29:36 * pikhq is curious
03:29:58 <pikhq> (what can I say? I'm curious about how people die in nethack)
03:32:18 <ihope> Essentially, I starved to death.
03:32:49 <ihope> Lessons learned from that game: Don't eat poisonous things, thereby decreasing your strength, then kick *three* sinks, thereby releasing the black puddings within, and cause them to divide by hitting them accidentally, then get most of your armor and both your weapons stolen by nymphs and become a wererat and summon so many pets that you have to kill some of them to move around.
03:32:59 <ihope> As told to #nethack a few minutes ago.
03:33:29 <ihope> Another lesson learned from that game: Don't pledge to win a game you've never won before.
03:33:37 <ihope> Do pledge to get the Bell if you've done that before.
03:37:31 <pikhq> Also, if you're hungry, kill your pet. :p
03:37:51 <pikhq> Tasty.
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03:41:37 <ihope> I killed my pet because he was in the way; I wasn't hungry. Then I starved to death anyway.
03:44:41 <ihope> I just started a new game and already my armor class is below what it was in my previous game.
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04:33:06 <RodgerTheGreat> ihope: wait, you can *win* nethack?
04:34:02 <bsmntbombdood> nethack is one giant puddle of wtf
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06:32:17 <Slereah_> THEN WHO WAS PHONE?
06:43:21 <bsmntbombdood> huh?
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09:34:02 * Mony is back (gone 09:36:42)
09:34:05 <Mony> hi
09:35:18 <Slereah_> Hi.
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11:07:06 <tusho> hello
11:08:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hey I found an possible issue with TRDS, how does it handle the ? instruction
11:08:58 <AnMaster> it need to give same result on the next run
11:09:45 <Mony> hi tusho
11:29:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: heh, ask Mike
11:29:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does ccbi do the right thing there?
11:30:06 <Deewiant> no :-P
11:30:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, bet you don't want to need to change that ;P
11:30:29 <tusho> "it should. Make a new release."
11:30:34 <Deewiant> would be a simple change though
11:30:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, recording any ? yeah
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12:03:18 <tusho> Incorrect plurals. Discuss.
12:03:19 <tusho> Databii.
12:05:04 * Mony miam
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13:16:26 * Mony is away: I will be back !
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14:14:34 <tusho> Hmm.
14:14:41 <tusho> I type "publicly", not "publically".
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15:02:08 <ais523> hi tusho
15:02:12 <tusho> ....................
15:02:17 <tusho> I JUST UNFOCUSED MY IRC CLIENT
15:02:18 <tusho> THIS SECOND
15:02:27 * tusho stabs ais523's eyes out
15:02:39 * ais523 defends emself with a towel
15:02:42 <ais523> useful things, towels
15:02:50 <tusho> Aha! But...
15:02:54 * tusho brings out NUCLEAR TOWEL
15:03:02 <tusho> It's nuclear, so yours dissolves along with your eyes.
15:03:18 <ais523> well, I defeat that with a cluebat
15:03:24 <ais523> now can we get back to talking about esolangs?
15:03:37 <ais523> I went and implemented Shove
15:03:47 <ais523> I couldn't think of an efficient way to do it so I did it a really inefficient way
15:03:56 <tusho> heh
15:04:11 <ais523> at least the way I did it makes it clear what's going on
15:04:41 <tusho> what language?
15:04:44 <tusho> don't say shove.
15:04:45 <ais523> Perl
15:07:03 <tusho> http://code.eso-std.org/shove/shove.pl
15:09:46 <ais523> ok, I've put a few example programs there too now
15:09:58 <ais523> modelling the Underload stack-manipulation primitives
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15:10:04 <ais523> I have dup, concat, swap and enclose there
15:10:13 <ais523> pop, eval and quote are trivial
15:10:34 <ais523> so all I need now is a way to combine two programs into one and I'll have an Underload -> Shove compiler
15:11:00 <ais523> combining two programs into one isn't trivial in Shove but I've thought of a way to do it, now I'm writing a precompiler that I can use to generate the compiler
15:12:20 <tusho> ais523: shouldn't it say "by ais523"?
15:12:50 <tusho> looks cool though
15:12:58 <tusho> i think you'll need a stage-2 shove though
15:13:00 <ais523> quite possibly, but I tend to sign realname on things that have copyright
15:13:00 <tusho> that lets you define commands
15:13:03 <tusho> because "swap" is long
15:13:23 <ais523> tusho: yes, that would be important for practical use, atm I'm trying to work around the restrictions of the language though
15:13:32 <tusho> ais523: yes
15:13:37 <ais523> programming Shove feels a bit like programming a cross between Underload and SMITH, only 10 times more confusing
15:13:43 <tusho> also, nowadays I generally sign copyrighted things tusho
15:13:50 <tusho> i think it's sufficiently formal
15:13:59 <tusho> how many things have been published under pseudonyms? loads
15:14:09 <tusho> i don't see why it wouldn't stand up legally
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15:17:25 <ihope> Tzi-ga-na-tood.
15:17:32 <ais523> ihope: ?
15:17:38 <ihope> Ello.
15:17:43 <ais523> also, I put my new Shove interp online
15:17:47 <ais523> http://code.eso-std.org/shove/shove.pl
15:23:14 <ais523> hopefully it's clear enough for people to be able to deduce the spec from the interp
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15:23:25 <ais523> oh, and ! S and n aren't part of the language
15:23:31 <ais523> they're all NOPs, just with side effects
15:23:44 <ais523> which make it possible to produce output and to run the program in a reasonable length of time
15:34:01 <Deewiant> "NOPs with side effects" sounds like an oxymoron to me ;-)
15:35:32 <ais523> Deewiant: they're NOPs from the language's point of view
15:35:37 <ais523> I have a no I/O tarpit
15:35:43 <ais523> but certain nops happen to cause output-like side-effects
15:36:01 <Deewiant> yeah, I know what you meant, it just sounded a bit funny until I read the context :-)
15:36:20 <ais523> another interesting point about Shove: in Befunge, if you go into stringmode from right to left, you get the string as you wrote it; in Shove, if you do that, the string comes out upside-down
15:36:30 <ais523> or at least with v and ^ swapped and likewise for the other characters
15:36:47 <ais523> this is a consequence of the way I wrote the interp, but I deliberately wrote the interp like that so that that would happen
15:37:00 <Deewiant> ¿ʇɹoddns ǝpoɔıun ǝʌɐɥ ʇı sǝop os
15:37:21 <ais523> unfortunately no, I wanted to do that but it couldn't write messages sideways very well
15:37:30 <Deewiant> heh
15:37:32 <ais523> so I just restricted myself to command characters and left other characters alone
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15:44:50 <tusho> oh that's a nice css effect
15:44:57 <tusho> the background of blockquotes was fixed to all of them
15:45:00 <tusho> so it was like they were cut holes in the page
15:45:05 <tusho> to a fixed position background
15:45:13 <ais523> that is clever
15:46:00 <tusho> it's a bit too subtle though
15:46:02 <tusho> the shape is white on beige
15:46:08 <tusho> explains why I haven't noticed it before
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15:52:21 <MikeRiley> you about AnMaster???\
15:52:28 <AnMaster> hm?
15:52:30 <AnMaster> what?
15:52:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ask him about ?
15:53:03 <MikeRiley> got a couple questions on funge108....
15:53:13 <MikeRiley> been working on adding a mode for that in Rc/Funge-98...
15:53:21 <ais523> Deewiant: what's your ? question?
15:53:22 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well ? in TRDS, shouldn't it mean that when you jump back in time the old ip (not jumped) will make the same random choice at ?
15:53:25 <AnMaster> or?
15:53:31 <Deewiant> ais523: that
15:53:32 <ais523> oh, TRDS
15:53:35 <MikeRiley> would not make the same random choice...
15:53:50 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well fire away the questions
15:53:53 <MikeRiley> when an ip jumps back, the future no longer exists...
15:53:53 <ais523> I /thought/ ? was one of the better-specified commands
15:54:01 <AnMaster> I have been extremely busy with non-esoteric stuff the last week
15:54:06 <MikeRiley> so future events need not recur...
15:54:08 <AnMaster> and will probably be that the next week too
15:54:12 <AnMaster> so I may be hard to reach
15:54:17 <AnMaster> fire away the questions
15:54:30 <MikeRiley> ok,,,first,,,on your new fingerprint method,,,,what format are you expecting URIs to be??? can you give me an example??
15:54:57 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, iirc I refer to an RFC and even give some examples
15:55:08 <MikeRiley> do not remember seeing any examples....
15:55:15 <AnMaster> http://example.com/my-finger-print.html
15:55:17 <AnMaster> or whatever
15:55:19 <AnMaster> just URIs
15:55:31 <MikeRiley> just a though....web addresses are a bad idea....
15:55:36 <AnMaster> doesn't even have to be URLs, though I guess in practice they will be
15:55:59 <ais523> well, in that case I may end up calling a fingerprint apt://nethack to annoy people
15:56:09 <MikeRiley> for resource types, i was looking at f108: for the interpreter handprint, and fngr: for fingerprints...
15:56:24 <AnMaster> ais523, is it a valid protocol defined in a RFC?
15:56:26 <AnMaster> ;P
15:56:37 <MikeRiley> using a web address is problematic,,,,
15:56:37 <ais523> AnMaster: no idea, but I see the links around every now and then
15:56:38 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, no, makes no sense at all IMO
15:56:40 <tusho> MikeRiley: use URIs
15:56:45 <tusho> MikeRiley: there's a spec for them
15:56:45 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, URI != URL
15:56:48 <tusho> (note: not URL)
15:57:00 <MikeRiley> and what should the defined format be???
15:57:05 <tusho> MikeRiley: here is the rfc:
15:57:12 <tusho> MikeRiley: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
15:57:18 <tusho> it's long; have fun
15:57:33 <tusho> there are uri manipulation libs for just about every language
15:57:35 <tusho> must be one for c
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15:59:02 <MikeRiley> asking an implementer to read through that rfc is not good, better to provide reasonable examples within your spec...
15:59:29 <ais523> wb ais523
15:59:33 <tusho> MikeRiley: so use a library!
15:59:48 <tusho> anyway all URIs are reasonable
15:59:50 <tusho> no reason to restrict them
16:00:04 <MikeRiley> so,,,i can just invent anything i want for them???
16:00:10 <tusho> no.
16:00:14 <tusho> anything that obeys http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
16:00:20 <MikeRiley> then, layout a spec,,,,
16:00:24 <tusho> MikeRiley: uhh
16:00:26 <tusho> you mean
16:00:28 <MikeRiley> the rfc covers them in a general form...
16:00:28 <tusho> duplicate the existing spec?
16:00:31 <MikeRiley> no,,,,
16:00:39 <tusho> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986 is a specification for URIs
16:00:44 <tusho> anything that obeys that is a valid URI
16:00:50 <MikeRiley> just like http: is a dfined subset....define a subset for this...
16:00:56 <tusho> no
16:00:57 <tusho> that's not the point
16:01:09 <tusho> the point is that it SHOULD use http://, gopher://, ftp://, whatever
16:01:15 <tusho> that's the point of using URIs
16:01:20 <MikeRiley> understood....
16:01:31 <MikeRiley> but anything before the :// ??? i can define whatever i want???
16:01:40 <MikeRiley> i think the resource type should be speced,,,,
16:01:48 <tusho> MikeRiley: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
16:01:55 <tusho> i don't know how many times I need to paste that link..
16:02:11 <MikeRiley> i do not intend to read through that document....too long
16:02:23 <tusho> MikeRiley: so use a pre-existing library for manipulating URIs in C
16:02:30 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Identifier more info
16:02:31 <ais523> ah, I finally found the thing before the ://
16:02:33 <ais523> it's at http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes.html
16:02:44 <ais523> they didn't define it in the RFC itself so they could change it later
16:02:51 <tusho> of course
16:02:53 <ais523> they just mandated IANA to keep a list, and that's where it is
16:02:54 <tusho> no reason to restrict it though
16:02:58 <tusho> just allow any valid URI
16:03:00 <MikeRiley> the rfc just says the a resource type has to be there, does not define them
16:03:02 <tusho> and then you won't have to update it
16:03:06 <tusho> srsly
16:03:09 <tusho> no reason keeping track of that list
16:03:15 <tusho> just allow anything that is a syntactically valid URI
16:03:23 <tusho> that is how URIs are used all the time and how they should be
16:03:33 <MikeRiley> of course....so my point,,,i can define whatever resource type i want???? so like fngr://???
16:03:47 <MikeRiley> so could do something like fngr://rcfunge98.trds
16:03:49 <MikeRiley> ???
16:03:50 <tusho> MikeRiley: don't, but it would be syntactically valid
16:03:50 <ais523> well, no, because it isn't a URI if you don't use a registered scheme, I don't think
16:03:56 <tusho> ah yes, ais523 is right
16:03:59 <tusho> ok, you need to keep track of the list
16:04:00 <tusho> not too hard
16:04:03 <ais523> it would be well-formed just not valid
16:04:08 <tusho> it's not like it has changed for what, years?
16:04:16 <tusho> MikeRiley: in practice the URI will probably be
16:04:29 <tusho> http://your.site/funge/fingerprints/name
16:04:37 <tusho> and have that link to documentation
16:04:43 <ais523> what about an irc:// URI to a fingerprint?
16:04:45 <ais523> that would be great
16:04:48 <tusho> ais523: hah, yes
16:04:50 <tusho> or mailto
16:04:52 <MikeRiley> your.site is a bad idea....
16:04:56 <tusho> MikeRiley: no, it's not
16:05:01 <MikeRiley> yes it is....
16:05:03 <tusho> URIs are used as universal identificaiton and have been for quite a file
16:05:07 <ais523> actually irc:// is not on the list
16:05:09 <tusho> it is the Right Thing
16:05:09 <ais523> which surprises me
16:05:11 <MikeRiley> example#1 catseye which defined some specs no longer exist
16:05:17 <tusho> MikeRiley: yes it does
16:05:18 <tusho> catseye.tc
16:05:24 <tusho> anyway, URIs by definition aern't meant to change
16:05:24 <MikeRiley> different address tho
16:05:25 <ais523> but I agree with MikeRiley to some extent, especially as not everyone has a website
16:05:31 <tusho> ais523: that's why ESO is offering them
16:05:32 <tusho> remember?
16:05:34 <ais523> tusho: that doesn't prevent them changing in practice
16:05:38 <MikeRiley> example#2, the fingerprints that i have defined are on a different address...
16:05:41 <tusho> http://fingerprints.eso-std.org/...
16:05:47 <ais523> you change ESO's naming scheme every week afaict
16:05:53 <tusho> no
16:05:55 <ais523> next week it'll be befunge.eso-std.org/fingerprints
16:06:00 <tusho> no, it won't
16:06:04 <tusho> you don't understand what i'm saying
16:06:13 <ais523> yes I do, I'm just disagreeing
16:06:19 <MikeRiley> websites are NOT as constant, and in my opinion should not be part of URIs for fingerprints....
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16:06:30 <tusho> MikeRiley: URIs are URIs whether you'd like them to be URIs are not.
16:06:42 <tusho> If you don't support a certain type of URIs you don't support URIs at all.
16:06:52 <ais523> well in that case it shouldn't be "URI" but some other sort of identifier
16:06:58 <tusho> no it shouldn't
16:06:59 <AnMaster> back
16:07:01 <tusho> you'd end up reinventing URIs
16:07:05 <tusho> which is pointless
16:07:14 <MikeRiley> no, would still be in the format of uris,,,,just different information...
16:07:23 <tusho> MikeRiley: the format of URIs includes the protocols.
16:07:27 <tusho> If you disallow a protocol you do not support URIs.
16:07:28 <MikeRiley> i agree...
16:07:39 <tusho> I highly reccomend you just stick with URIs.
16:07:40 <MikeRiley> i think the protocol should be there,,,and be defined for handprints and fingerprints
16:07:52 <tusho> That's anti-ethical to the whole idea of URIs!
16:08:00 <tusho> They're meant to design a resource protocol-agnostically!
16:08:07 <tusho> er, not resource
16:08:09 <tusho> you know what I mean
16:08:24 <AnMaster> I will stick to plain URIs
16:08:36 <AnMaster> because I want to be able to use gopher or whatever if I want
16:08:45 <ais523> tusho: the problem is URIs aren't actually very good at their job
16:08:45 <tusho> AnMaster: good :)
16:08:54 <tusho> ais523: URIs are fine at their job. People aren't.
16:08:55 <MikeRiley> makes no sense to me to name fingerprints this way...
16:08:56 <ais523> because people don't control Internet locations indefinitely in real life
16:08:59 <AnMaster> anyway the risk of collision is *much* higher currently with 4 letters than with a URL
16:09:01 <AnMaster> URI*
16:09:02 <tusho> [[[     What makes a cool URI?
16:09:03 <tusho>     A cool URI is one which does not change.
16:09:03 <tusho>     What sorts of URI change?
16:09:03 <tusho>     URIs don't change: people change them.]]] - TBL
16:09:15 <MikeRiley> i agree about the 4 letters,,,,that was definitely a problem...
16:09:17 <ais523> tusho: or their webhost changes them, or their financial situation
16:09:21 <tusho> ais523: purl.net
16:09:40 <ais523> tusho: what if it goes down tomorrow
16:09:44 <ais523> I mean, seriously?
16:09:49 <ais523> it probably won't happen but it might
16:09:49 <tusho> ais523: it won't. It's got a huge amount of backing
16:09:49 <MikeRiley> not there have been any collisions yet,,,very few people have defined fingerprints.....
16:09:56 <tusho> it's not just Yet Another Service
16:10:18 <ais523> tusho: that attitude strikes me as being overconfident
16:10:23 <ais523> no matter what website it's with respect to
16:10:51 <tusho> ais523: purl has got a huge, huge amount of backing and effort & research to stay totally persistent put in it
16:10:51 <pikhq> Actually, a URI is meant to just *identify* the resource... Not necessarily point out where it is. urn:isbn:1234567890123, for example, is a valid URI... Well, except that that's not by any means a valid ISBN. :p
16:10:56 <tusho> pikhq: Yes.
16:11:02 <ais523> pikhq: yes
16:11:08 <pikhq> It seems like at least one person did not understand that.
16:11:15 <pikhq> Though I might just be missing something.
16:11:22 <tusho> MikeRiley, I think
16:11:25 <ais523> even so, I think it should probably have a date involved if you're going to base a URI on an URL
16:11:33 <ais523> because the URL might end up owned by someone else eventually
16:11:51 <tusho> URLs are a subset of URIs
16:11:57 <tusho> "basing a URI on a URL" is a silly concept
16:12:23 <MikeRiley> which is back to my point, a web address is not relevent in a URI...
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16:12:39 <tusho> MikeRiley: of course it is
16:12:39 <MikeRiley> unless it is the URI is for a web based service...
16:12:55 <MikeRiley> fingerprints are not web-based services....
16:13:01 <MikeRiley> they are features in an interprter,,,,
16:13:05 <tusho> that's not how it works
16:13:11 <ais523> well, I think it should be a data:// URI
16:13:20 <ais523> that contains all the information needed to implement the fingerprint
16:13:28 <ais523> e.g. the code for the fingerprint encoded in base64
16:13:29 <MikeRiley> data:// is reasonable....
16:13:37 <MikeRiley> and i can put anything i want after that???
16:13:42 <ais523> MikeRiley: yes, but my suggestion is unreasonable on other grounds
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16:13:49 <MikeRiley> which are???
16:13:52 <ais523> MikeRiley: there's a defined format for data://
16:13:57 <tusho> MikeRiley: you must support all URIs
16:14:02 <tusho> otherwise you do not support URIs at all
16:14:04 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,so we are back to where i started...
16:14:07 <ais523> MikeRiley: if you're going to have the entire code of your fingerprint in your program, then why bother with fingerprinting at all?
16:14:08 <tusho> and therefore will not conform to befunge-108
16:14:36 <MikeRiley> all my fingerprint code is in my interpreter,,,,but it still requires the fingerprint mechanism to overload A-Z....
16:15:01 <MikeRiley> i am trying to figure out how these should appear???
16:15:05 <ais523> yes, in the interpreter makes sense, in the program doesn't
16:15:23 <MikeRiley> when i use (,,,,,what should appear in the 0gnirts to load TRDS for example???
16:15:38 <tusho> MikeRiley: http://your.site/befunge/fingerprints/trds
16:15:39 <tusho> or whatever
16:15:42 <ais523> the problem is that funge-108 fingerprints will likely have names which are far too long for practical use
16:15:53 <tusho> mailto:your.emai+trds@your.email.domain
16:15:54 <MikeRiley> your.site is unacceptable to me,....my site may change in the future....
16:15:57 <ais523> just look at any OpenOffice.org macro language source and you'll see what I mean
16:16:00 <tusho> MikeRiley: will your email?
16:16:04 <MikeRiley> probably
16:16:06 <ais523> mine definitely will
16:16:13 <tusho> MikeRiley: ok, what won't?
16:16:18 <MikeRiley> anything related to the web is not a constant,,,,
16:16:34 <MikeRiley> i think fingerprints should have names that can be relied upon to be constant....
16:16:48 <tusho> a URI changing is a bug, a flaw, an error
16:16:50 <tusho> in practice, yes, they do
16:16:52 <tusho> so pick one that won't
16:16:59 <tusho> pick a protocol that doesn't rely on something mallable
16:17:05 <tusho> ais linked to a list of them
16:17:07 <MikeRiley> to pick one that will not,,,you cannot use any web address within the uri....
16:17:12 <tusho> correct
16:17:24 <tusho> http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes.html
16:17:26 <tusho> pick one
16:17:51 <tusho> MikeRiley: in particular
16:17:54 <tusho> urn:
16:17:57 <tusho> is probably relevant to this
16:18:06 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Name
16:19:02 <MikeRiley> so something like: urn://fingerprint:rcfunge98:trds ?????
16:19:11 <tusho> MikeRiley: why do you keep making things up?
16:19:16 <tusho> why not read the definition of URNs...
16:19:17 <MikeRiley> i am not....
16:19:20 <MikeRiley> just did....
16:19:25 <tusho> yes, you just made up urn://fingerprint:rcfunge98:tds
16:19:40 <tusho> MikeRiley: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2141.txt
16:19:41 <tusho> it's short.
16:19:45 <tusho> a lot shorter than the URI definition
16:19:51 <tusho> a few pages
16:19:58 <MikeRiley> ok, show me an example of how YOU would specify the trds fingerprint....
16:20:07 <AnMaster> http://www.iana.org/assignments/urn-namespaces
16:20:20 <tusho> MikeRiley: why?
16:20:25 <tusho> it's not my responsibility...
16:20:27 <MikeRiley> i want to see what you think it should be....
16:20:32 <tusho> you choose what kind of URI you want to use, e.g. URN
16:20:36 <tusho> then you make one of those...
16:20:38 <tusho> pretty simple
16:21:00 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,in that case, i will invent my own for my fingerprints....
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16:21:39 <tusho> MikeRiley: uh, as long as it accords to the spec...
16:21:46 <MikeRiley> and when somebody comes up with uris for fingerprints made by somebody else,,,,i  will implement them then...
16:21:50 <tusho> if it doesn't, you can't use it, because it's not an URN (or not a URI or whatever)
16:21:54 <tusho> and...
16:21:57 <tusho> you don't need to do anything special
16:22:01 <tusho> just look up fingerprints by their uri
16:22:02 <tusho> instead of name
16:22:06 <tusho> it's trivial!
16:22:18 <tusho> you have a database of installed fingerprints, instead of name, the key is the URI
16:22:24 <MikeRiley> which means i can do something like: fngr://rcfunge98/trds.....
16:22:29 <tusho> no
16:22:29 <MikeRiley> that follows the rules of a uri....
16:22:33 <tusho> it isn't a valid URI
16:22:38 <tusho> because the protocol is not one of the registered protocols
16:22:41 <MikeRiley> does not matter that fngr is not already defined by somebody else...
16:22:44 <tusho> yes
16:22:45 <tusho> it does
16:22:52 <MikeRiley> does the uri spec say that it must be pre-registered???
16:23:02 <tusho> that is what a URI is.
16:23:06 <tusho> the protocol must be a valid URI protocol.
16:23:11 <tusho> IANA maintains the list.
16:23:14 <MikeRiley> the little of it that i read just sad that you had to specify a resource type...and not what the types are...
16:23:37 <tusho> "the little of it that I read" precisely
16:23:39 <tusho> the little of it.
16:23:52 <MikeRiley> i accept that....too long for me to waste my time reading it....
16:23:58 <MikeRiley> i would prefer to see reasonable examples....
16:24:06 <MikeRiley> or else i will make my own way of doing it....
16:24:20 <tusho> MikeRiley: go ahead, as long as you don't care about funge-108 compliance.
16:24:38 <MikeRiley> i guess at this point,,,i do not....since nobody is willing to define what it should look like....
16:24:52 <tusho> MikeRiley: I can copy and paste the rfc if you'd like?
16:24:56 <MikeRiley> i will use my method,,,which will work in my interpeter...
16:25:00 <tusho> i've told you exactly how it will look like
16:25:03 <MikeRiley> i am not going to read the rfc....
16:25:04 <tusho> by linking you to the definitive source
16:25:07 <tusho> you just refuse to read it.
16:25:15 <MikeRiley> i agree, i refuse to read it...
16:25:22 <tusho> have fun
16:25:25 <MikeRiley> i will....
16:26:01 <MikeRiley> and when somebody defines actual uris for non-rcs fingerprints,,,i will provide the support for them then....
16:26:09 <MikeRiley> and my fingerprints will use my specification...
16:26:11 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, examples are any valid URI
16:26:15 <tusho> MikeRiley seems to think that you have to special case it.
16:26:25 <AnMaster> I got no clue what you want instead...
16:26:27 <tusho> AnMaster: don't bother. he asks what a URI is.
16:26:33 <tusho> AnMaster: if you point him to the rfc he refuses to use it
16:26:36 <tusho> just let him implement whatever...
16:26:51 <MikeRiley> what i want, is a clear cut description (not referringt to an rfc) that describes what funge108 expects in the 0gnirts....
16:26:59 <MikeRiley> not a vague idea...
16:27:00 <tusho> MikeRiley: ANY URI
16:27:02 <tusho> ANY URI AT ALL
16:27:02 <MikeRiley> something specific....
16:27:03 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, ANY valid URI
16:27:05 <AnMaster> any at all
16:27:06 <tusho> for a definition of a URI: SEE THE RFC
16:27:09 <tusho> that is what defines a URI
16:27:13 <tusho> there is NO MORE WE CAN SAY
16:27:21 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, or do you want me to copy paste the entire rfc into the specs?
16:27:33 <MikeRiley> as i said,,,when somebody provieds me with uris for non-rcs fingerprints, i will implement those....my fingerprints will use my own...
16:27:35 <tusho> AnMaster: he wants you to rewrite it in a few pages, it seems
16:27:48 <AnMaster> well that is impossible tusho!
16:27:55 <tusho> of course
16:27:58 <MikeRiley> i prefer examples of what things should look like rather than long specs....
16:28:22 <Deewiant> so give him an example of a Funge-108 program and have him implement Funge-108 based on that ;-)
16:28:55 <tusho> Deewiant: *g*
16:30:18 <ais523> anyway, have a look at Shove, everyone, I'm quite amazed at how unlike Befunge it manages to be whilst seeming similar from a distance
16:30:40 <ais523> http://code.eso-std.org/shove/
16:30:46 <tusho> i looked at it
16:30:46 <tusho> quite nice
16:31:19 <ais523> the issue is that the program tends to disintegrate after it's been run for a bit
16:31:23 <ais523> because all the rows get out of sync
16:32:06 <ais523> anyway I thought of an improvement to Underload to make it much easier to compile
16:32:18 <ais523> delimit code strings with {} and data strings with []
16:32:28 <ais523> data strings can't be run with ^, code strings can't be output with S
16:32:40 <ais523> that means that you don't have trouble when compiling it into other concatenative langs
16:32:59 <ais523> oh, and you can't use * to concatenate a code string to a data string
16:33:30 <ais523> () would still be a combined code string/data string, but you shouldn't use it in programs you want to compile
16:33:31 <tusho> how about data strings = ""
16:33:32 <tusho> :P
16:33:35 <ais523> and probably you'd need two versions of a
16:33:39 <ais523> tusho: nesting?
16:33:40 <tusho> with proper escaping
16:33:48 <tusho> "Hello, world!\n"S
16:33:49 <ais523> ah, proper escaping would help
16:34:01 <ais523> then a would generate code strings
16:34:05 <tusho> and keep () as just code
16:34:07 <ais523> and quines would be a whole lot more difficult
16:34:17 <tusho> ais523: yes
16:34:19 <tusho> * would depend, though
16:34:28 <tusho> "a"(b)* would be invalid
16:34:31 <tusho> as would (b)"a"*
16:34:44 <ais523> yes, that's what I was saying
16:34:55 <ais523> concatenating data and code both make sense, but not concatenating them to each other
16:35:18 <tusho> yes
16:35:25 <tusho> brb
16:35:32 <ais523> biarb
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17:13:02 * Mony is back (gone 03:56:37)
17:13:18 <Mony> I come back from the skate park :)
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17:17:42 <tusho> B to the A to the C K
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21:21:07 <Mony> i'm going to try to implent conditions in my "language"
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23:11:01 <Mony> does anyone have an good idea for my conditions ?
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23:26:41 <tusho> Mony: not really
23:27:06 <Mony> and bad ideas ? :P
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23:36:39 <tusho> none
23:36:40 <tusho> :P
23:45:49 <Mony> may the night give me ideas :D
23:45:52 * Mony is away: zZz
23:46:03 <Mony> good night guys ;)
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2008-08-05:

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04:30:48 <psygnisfive> man
04:30:51 <psygnisfive> im listening to twit
04:30:56 <psygnisfive> and they have never heard of "lulz"
04:32:42 <pikhq> Jebus.
04:32:51 <pikhq> What a twit.
04:33:05 <psygnisfive> its a podcast :P
04:33:13 <psygnisfive> infact, its THE podcast
04:33:22 <psygnisfive> the most popular, excluding NPR
04:36:38 <pikhq> Twits.
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05:35:32 <pikhq> GregorR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blFmzWJq1GI "Pook toy! Media pook ah!"
05:35:35 <pikhq> I love you, man.
05:43:37 <pikhq> cherez: You do realise you're not logged in on AIM any more, right?
05:45:04 <cherez> pikhq: I just noticed I had physically unplugged my network cable by accident.
05:45:22 <pikhq> Brilliant.
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08:11:22 <Mony> lol
08:11:35 <Mony> hum... bye
08:11:39 <Mony> see ya !
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12:11:03 <KingOfKarlsruhe> i've made a new program, like this here <Mony> http://rafb.net/p/9T7NMl68.html.. my version:  http://paste.pocoo.org/show/81255/
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13:01:58 <tusho> vab is popular, I see :p
13:12:46 <tusho> hi SimonRC
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17:29:23 <Mony> hi there
17:32:00 <Tritonio_> hi
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20:44:57 <tusho> SimonRC: hi
20:45:18 <SimonRC> tusho: hang about...
20:45:23 <SimonRC> how did you know I was back?
20:45:30 <tusho> SimonRC: magic, duh
20:45:40 <tusho> also I'm behind you
20:45:42 <SimonRC> seriously
20:45:57 <tusho> SimonRC: i didn't
20:45:59 <tusho> good timing I guess
20:46:03 <SimonRC> :-(
20:46:12 <SimonRC> it would be a darn useful thing to know
20:46:22 <tusho> SimonRC: if it makes you happier you can believe it was magic
20:46:29 <SimonRC> no
20:46:45 <SimonRC> I can't think of a better way than continuously polling my status
20:46:52 <tusho> SimonRC: that's what most irc clients do
20:47:02 <tusho> they do /w #channel every now and then
20:47:24 <SimonRC> hm, handy
20:47:36 <tusho> err /who
20:47:51 <SimonRC> I guessed
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20:48:14 <tusho> anyway I can't actually remember why I pinged you, I think it was that I'd remembered you liking lemon demon in the past of this channel and i just got his newest album in the post today so I guess it was some kind of subconcious link
20:48:16 * tusho shrugs
20:48:26 <SimonRC> tusho: ok
20:48:40 * tusho considers nickpinging everyone
20:48:52 <tusho> and then coming up with a valid reason to have pinged each one of them individually
20:49:24 <SimonRC> so...
20:49:37 <SimonRC> Agatha Heterodyne or Helen Narbon?
20:54:02 <psygnisfive> heterodyne is an awesome name
20:54:16 <SimonRC> um, yeah
20:54:34 <SimonRC> I was thinking of which you/I prefer
20:55:00 <psygnisfive> mate, i dont know wtf youre asking about, all i know is, heterodyne is an awesome name.
20:55:10 <SimonRC> :-(
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20:55:41 <psygnisfive> why :-(?
20:56:44 <SimonRC> nvm
20:56:57 <psygnisfive> weirdo :D
20:58:09 <SimonRC> They are both fictional female engineer/geek geniuses (and quite similar in appearance).
20:58:42 <SimonRC> Agatha is from Girl Genius and Helen is from Narbonic.
20:58:49 <SimonRC> webcomics I follow
20:59:06 <psygnisfive> ok
20:59:10 <psygnisfive> why are you explaining this?
20:59:16 <psygnisfive> it doesnt matter whether i understand or not
20:59:23 <Deewiant> don't know about Helen but Agatha for the win
21:00:00 <SimonRC> Helen is an evil mad scientist, in a comic strip that's about 50% metadata.
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21:03:51 <SimonRC> <Neddie Seagoon>Our path was blocked by the icy river Kopete.  There's nothing worse than a cold Kopete!</Neddie Seagoon>
21:04:01 <SimonRC> possibly not the origin of the name
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21:12:11 <SimonRC> hi
21:18:56 <RodgerTheGreat> SimonRC: agatha is theoretically significantly less evil than helen
21:19:13 <RodgerTheGreat> and has successfully built cooler gadgets and giant robots, etc
21:19:52 <SimonRC> OTOH, Helen is cuter and more dangerous
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21:21:05 <SimonRC> hi
21:21:42 <RodgerTheGreat> that first point is debatable and difficult to determine with certainty because Shaenon Garrity just plain isn't as skilled an artist as Phil Foglio
21:23:06 <SimonRC> yeah
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21:56:41 <lament> I have come to restore law and order!
21:58:14 <tusho> lament: hah
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22:11:30 <SimonRC> so...
22:11:36 <tusho> so...
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22:11:59 <SimonRC> Linus Torvalds walks into a bar, with a mernel module down the front of his trousers...
22:12:02 <SimonRC> *Kernel
22:12:23 <SimonRC> at the bar is RMS, who says:
22:12:50 <SimonRC> "Linus, you've got a kernel module down the front of your trousers."
22:13:06 <SimonRC> Linus replies "I know, it's driving me nuts."
22:13:14 <SimonRC> *rimshot*
22:13:19 <SimonRC> or possibly:
22:13:21 <SimonRC> *headshot*
22:23:43 * tusho kills SimonRC 
22:23:49 <tusho> by cracking his skull with a plastic fork
22:23:56 <lilja> :\
22:24:04 * Mony is away: zZz
22:24:17 <SimonRC> tusho: why?
22:24:24 <tusho> SimonRC: that was a terrible joke
22:24:24 <SimonRC> ah, the pun
22:24:31 <SimonRC> I thought I was elsenet for a moment
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22:24:49 <Mony> good night every body
22:24:55 <SimonRC> 'night
22:25:24 <Mony> thx
22:25:57 <tusho> bye Mony
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22:28:33 <lament> Mony: "every body" means "every corpse"
22:29:00 <tusho> lament: he's french and not very good at english
22:29:03 <tusho> cut him some slack
22:29:46 <Mony> oh
22:29:47 <Mony> sorry :s
22:29:58 <Mony> i turn off my PC
22:30:01 <Mony> bye
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22:30:35 <tusho> ok, encountered made me laugh
22:35:57 * SimonRC goes to bed.
22:36:13 <lament> you turn off your pc bye!
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23:16:56 <Tritonio_> tusho, what about encountered?
23:17:38 <tusho> hmm
23:17:41 <tusho> i thought it was typo'd
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2008-08-06:

00:16:18 <pikhq> You know, I think we need Egobot back.
00:16:25 <pikhq> Only much, much more robust.
00:16:31 <tusho> that would be botte
00:16:37 <tusho> If Only It Were Done(TM)
00:17:16 <pikhq> If only I'd bother.
00:17:38 <tusho> pikhq: botte's planned to have fun stuff like an #esoteric link log
00:17:46 <tusho> '.l url description' in the channel adds it to the link log
00:17:55 <tusho> and an atom feed will be provided
00:18:13 <pikhq> I think it'd need to start with being robust.
00:18:22 <pikhq> Which Egobot sure as hell was not.
00:18:27 <pikhq> Didn't it crash daily?
00:18:51 <tusho> Yes.
00:18:54 <tusho> Botte should be pretty stable.
00:19:09 <tusho> It'll be written in Ruby (yeah, yeah, I know you hate it)
00:19:26 <tusho> but C++ programs, especially ones written like they're in C like egobot, generally are prone to crash more than scripting language ones
00:19:35 <tusho> esp. since egobot's parser was ... rusty, to say the least
00:21:07 <pikhq> Bullshit.
00:21:14 <pikhq> C++ programs can be written damned well.
00:21:20 <tusho> pikhq: I didn't deny that, of course.
00:21:28 <pikhq> And, actually, I'm ashamed at Gregor for *not* doing it right.
00:21:34 <tusho> But what I'm saying is for a bloomin' IRC bot, C++ is an unneccesary fuss.
00:21:37 <pikhq> Of course, that was one of his earlier programs.
00:21:40 <pikhq> Okay, okay.
00:21:43 <pikhq> Tcl it is.
00:21:43 <pikhq> :p
00:21:45 <tusho> :p
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02:43:49 <GregorR> Interesting updates to calamari's Facebook page recently: Mormon->no religion, joined the groups "I'm a Secular Humanist" and "Ex-Mormons Worldwide".
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04:47:06 <lament> traitor!!!
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09:22:08 <Mony> hi there !
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12:32:44 <Mony> bye
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14:03:58 <AnMaster> tusho, when you see ais523 please point him to http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=18937 \o/
14:04:06 <AnMaster> my first arch linux package is c-intercal :D
14:04:14 <tusho> AnMaster: given up on gentoo?
14:04:23 <tusho> http://intercal.freeshell.org/download/ick-${pkgver/./-}.tgz
14:04:23 <AnMaster> tusho, nah
14:04:27 <tusho> fun bug in the web interface
14:04:40 <AnMaster> tusho, I just use arch on this old p3
14:04:44 <AnMaster> still gentoo on my amd64
14:04:56 <tusho> this off-handedly reminds me that I need to write that article about os x
14:05:06 <AnMaster> tusho, eh?
14:05:09 <AnMaster> bbl guests
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14:11:37 <AnMaster> tusho, indeed it seems the web interface can't handle bash substitutions, but the program used to build packages can do that
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15:36:01 <tusho> concatenative languages are fun
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15:39:21 <AnMaster> blergh I don't understand how to translate the versioning of clc-intercal
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17:18:01 <ais523> hi tusho
17:18:06 <tusho> hi ais523
17:18:14 <tusho> bad time, I'm about to disappear soon for ~25m
17:18:25 <ais523> ok, that's fine, it normally takes me about that long to read my email
17:18:30 <ais523> and I'm not very communicative during that time
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18:17:55 <Mony> ruse
18:19:31 <ais523> Mony: ?
18:20:18 <Mony> oh... in french, we say "Re", when we see again a person
18:20:49 <Mony> but, i say "ruse", 'cause i think it's pretiest
18:20:57 <ais523> ah
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19:25:58 <Mony> bye
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19:33:33 <AnMaster> ais523, hi
19:33:42 <AnMaster> ais523, http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=18937 <-- c-intercal
19:34:31 <ais523> AnMaster: is that your fault or did you just come across it?
19:34:43 <AnMaster> ais523, look at maintainer :P
19:34:46 <ais523> ah, it's yours by the look of it
19:34:57 <AnMaster> ais523, is there some RSS feed or news letter for new C-INTERCAL releases?
19:35:04 * AnMaster ducks
19:35:07 <ais523> news://alt.lang.intercal
19:35:13 <AnMaster> hahah
19:35:20 <ais523> no, seriously, that's the official place
19:35:23 * AnMaster fires up usenet client
19:35:26 <ais523> and it doesn't seem to be used by anyone else atm
19:35:32 <ais523> although it ought to be
19:35:45 <ais523> it's known to have a large number of lurkers despite having no traffic
19:35:57 <ais523> so it's an unusual case of a newsgroup that lots of people read but nobody writes in
19:36:06 <ais523> well, large for esolang stuff
19:36:08 <AnMaster> ais523, yes it got traffic "Get Green-Fuel Solution$$$ 65482"
19:36:09 <AnMaster> :P
19:36:11 <AnMaster> I hate spam
19:36:24 <ais523> oh, I just ignore the spam
19:36:30 <AnMaster> same
19:36:36 <AnMaster> but there is no good spam filter
19:37:09 <ais523> besides it's so dead that even the spam doesn't come up very often
19:37:25 <olsner> at work, I have like 30k actual e-mails and (so far) 0 spam e-mails :D
19:39:08 <ErkiDerLoony> Does anyone know a free news server?
19:39:21 <ErkiDerLoony> Because I changed my provider and the new one does not have a news server ...
19:39:40 <AnMaster> ErkiDerLoony, newszilla6.xs4all.nl is a free ipv6 readonly one
19:39:53 <AnMaster> don't know of any that allow posting
19:39:59 <AnMaster> apart from google groups
19:40:06 <ErkiDerLoony> Hm, k.
19:41:39 <AnMaster> ais523, and what did you mean "fault" with the package
19:41:50 <ais523> AnMaster: responsibility
19:41:59 <AnMaster> thanks that better
19:42:07 <AnMaster> it is as if you didn't like packages ;P
19:42:22 <AnMaster> ais523, however the Arch guidelines say version number should be same as upstream
19:42:26 <AnMaster> which will cause issues of course
19:43:08 <Deewiant> use major.minor.major
19:43:29 <AnMaster> well they prefer same as upstream exactly
19:43:38 <ais523> well, let them figure it out
19:43:48 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway AUR = user maintained
19:43:54 <ais523> eso stuff is useful for pressure-testing other people's systems
19:43:55 <AnMaster> not part of official repo
19:44:04 <AnMaster> oh yes it is
19:44:13 <ais523> for instance CLC-INTERCAL exposed a bug in mandb that was capable of crashing man completely
19:44:22 <AnMaster> ais523, I doubt it will ever become part of the community repo
19:44:25 <ais523> apparently it doesn't like man pages to have spaces in their filenames
19:44:42 <AnMaster> well spaces in filenames
19:44:49 <AnMaster> why the heck did CLC-INTERCAL want that?
19:44:58 <AnMaster> ais523, also it isn't like anyone except debian use mandb
19:45:12 <ais523> how do they get apropos databases then?
19:45:17 <AnMaster> makewhatis
19:45:29 <ais523> ah, good to know
19:45:39 <ais523> I'll stick with my autoconf thing anyway, as it should recognise that mandb isn't needed
19:45:40 <AnMaster> NAME
19:45:40 <AnMaster>        makewhatis - Create the whatis database
19:46:07 <AnMaster> ais523, makewhatis is run by cron once a week here
19:46:28 <ais523> well an install isn't really an install if your program isn't properly installed until next week
19:46:41 <AnMaster> ais523, hah
19:47:00 <AnMaster> anyway I have to patch the change of /usr/share/info/dir away on all systems
19:47:08 <AnMaster> because it cause errors when you install to DESTDIR
19:47:11 <AnMaster> which is the normal way
19:47:22 <ais523> AnMaster: I downgraded that to a warning for the next version
19:47:25 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact arch strips all info pages by default
19:49:14 <ais523> anyway I tried C-INTERCAL on cygwin, it worked 'out of the box'
19:49:19 <ais523> -F didn't work but I wasn't really sure if it would
19:49:22 <AnMaster> you told us
19:49:38 <ais523> hmm... what OS should I try next?
19:49:46 <AnMaster> ais523, IRIX?
19:49:48 <ais523> the issue is that I've done pretty much all the OSs I have access to now
19:49:48 <AnMaster> Sun OS?
19:49:55 <AnMaster> ais523, ah well
19:49:57 <ais523> AnMaster: SunOS was the first OS I ran it on
19:50:01 <AnMaster> hah ok
19:50:04 <ais523> before I even got a computer that ran Linux
19:50:14 <AnMaster> does it still work on that?
19:50:21 <ais523> I don't see why it wouldn't
19:50:28 <ais523> although I'll probably test again some time before the next release
19:50:36 <ais523> it needs a bit of tweaking to work around the limitations of Sun lex
19:50:41 <ais523> but there's information on that in the README
19:51:04 <ais523> (basically you need to preallocate memory with a set of directives, the error messages tell you exactly what to do so it's surprising that lex doesn't just do it itself
19:51:06 <ais523> s/$/)/
19:51:26 <AnMaster> ais523, what about Solaris then?
19:51:33 <ais523> I don't have a copy of it to try
19:51:41 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc it is free nowdays
19:51:45 <AnMaster> could work in a vm
19:51:52 <ais523> yes, there's OpenSolaris
19:52:04 <ais523> although all sorts of interesting questions for that were opened up by the SCO vs. Novell case
19:52:04 <AnMaster> no even normal solaris too
19:52:20 <ais523> apparently SCO sold Sun a license to open-source Solaris that they weren't allowed to sell
19:52:29 <ais523> and nobody's entirely sure what the result of that will be
19:52:56 <AnMaster> wait SCO wasn't allowed? by who?
19:53:25 <ais523> AnMaster: basically they were trying to sell something that wasn't theirs in the first place
19:53:33 <ais523> which was the rights to open-source AT&T Unix
19:53:39 <ais523> at least that's what the court ruled
19:53:42 <AnMaster> weird
19:53:50 <AnMaster> so why did they even try to sell it?
19:53:57 <ais523> to get the money?
19:54:40 <AnMaster> well I mean, if AT&T owns the stuff how could they sell any of what they tried to claim they did
19:54:51 <ais523> well, they said they owned it and presumably Sun believed them
19:54:58 <ais523> and they claimed they owned it in the courts too, they just lost
19:55:31 <AnMaster> but solaris isn't based on AT&T unix is it?
19:55:45 <ais523> not sure, probably bits of it are
19:55:59 <ais523> I can't imagine that it's all BSD
19:56:13 <AnMaster> some of it is probably from scratch
19:56:53 <ais523> well, they can open-source those bits legally
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19:56:59 <ais523> but bits of it are likely to not be owned by them
19:57:03 <ais523> nor SCO, as it turned out
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19:57:37 <AnMaster> ais523, and what did AT&T say then?
19:57:48 <ais523> well, Novell claim that they own the copyrights now
19:57:52 <ais523> which hasn't been proven either way
19:57:58 <ais523> but SCO claimed to have bought them from Novell
19:58:07 <ais523> and Novell have proved that they didn't sell them to them
19:58:13 <pikhq> SCO vs. Novell went to court a while back.
19:58:26 <ais523> pikhq: yes, that's what I'm talking about, I'm giving a quick summary for AnMaster
19:58:40 <pikhq> It is the verdict of the court that Novell owns the copyright to UNIX.
19:58:49 <AnMaster> how did they do that?
19:58:51 <pikhq> Well, those parts which are under copyright at all.
19:58:52 <ais523> pikhq: not quite, it is the verdict of the court that Novell didn't sell it to SCO
19:59:14 <ais523> I don't think it's been conclusively proved that Novell ever owned it in the first place, but it does seem plausible
19:59:18 <ais523> it certainly changed hands a lot
19:59:23 <pikhq> (a very, *very* solid chunk of UNIX is in the public domain, thanks to AT&T vs. BSDi)
19:59:42 <ais523> pikhq: yes, I agree with that, BSD is pretty safe
19:59:47 <ais523> but there are non-BSD Unices
20:00:03 <AnMaster> well linux isn't based on that either
20:00:07 <AnMaster> so not an issue for linux
20:00:15 <ais523> well, obviously, SCO were claiming it were but nobody believes them
20:00:42 <ais523> it's pretty clear Linux was written from scratch, even if it does have a file called errno.h in it
20:00:59 <AnMaster> of course it does, that is in the damn POSIX specs
20:01:07 <ais523> (most of SCO's arguments seem obviously wrong to a programmer but might possibly confuse a non-tech-savvy judge)
20:01:55 <pikhq> Actually, that case ruled that early non-BSD Unices were public domain, IIRC.
20:02:07 <pikhq> (ones before AT&T started selling UNIX)
20:02:44 <ais523> but it's been modified since then
20:02:50 <pikhq> True.
20:03:20 <pikhq> Of course, the Unices not in public domain or under the BSD license are not exactly floating around in the open...
20:03:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm?
20:04:02 <AnMaster> I'm afraid I didn't understand that idiom(?)
20:04:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, ^
20:04:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: Meaning: you're not exactly going to *see* various non-free Unices' source code.
20:04:54 <AnMaster> indeed
20:06:07 <pikhq> Of course, SCO seems to operate under the influence of a variety of hallucinogens, explaining their court case.
20:06:08 <pikhq> ;)
20:06:34 <ais523> well, there's a major conspiracy theory that someone was paying them to keep it going as long as possible
20:06:47 <ais523> also it increased their share price for a bit while people thought they actually had a chance, that didn't last long though
20:07:27 <pikhq> Actually, the only conspiracy theory is concerning the *purpose* of Microsoft's fairly large licensing agreement with them.
20:07:45 <ais523> pikhq: you aren't reading enough conspiracy theories, then
20:08:13 <pikhq> Insanely large payouts to SCO for no apparent reason are a matter of public record. ;)
20:08:31 <pikhq> (I mean, honestly: Microsoft buying SCOsource licenses? Why?!?)
20:08:36 <ais523> well, they found out what Microsoft had allegedly bought
20:09:15 <tusho> zoop
20:09:32 <tusho> i dislike Novell
20:09:40 <tusho> even if it was a sound contract
20:09:44 <tusho> they got bullied in to it
20:09:49 <tusho> and caved in as one of the largest commercial linux outfits
20:10:18 <AnMaster> tusho, eh?
20:10:23 <tusho> AnMaster: what?
20:10:31 <AnMaster> tusho, what contract?
20:10:37 <ais523> the Novell-Microsoft contract
20:10:39 <tusho> read up dude...
20:10:43 <AnMaster> ah
20:10:43 <tusho> ^^^^ up that way
20:10:48 <ais523> where Novell and Microsoft agreed not to sue each other over patents
20:10:54 <AnMaster> ah
20:10:59 <ais523> Microsoft paid Novell a lot of money for it too
20:11:09 <ais523> and the result was bad press for Novell
20:12:05 <tusho> microsoft are probably on the death row
20:12:14 <tusho> recovering from vista will be nigh-on impossible
20:12:21 <tusho> it'll be a loooooooooooooong trawl though...
20:12:28 <ais523> they've already announced the vaporware for the next version
20:12:34 <ais523> in fact two next versions
20:12:39 <ais523> both Windows 7 and something they call Midori
20:12:50 <ais523> although loads of things are called Midori because it's a common Japanese word
20:12:55 <tusho> yes
20:13:01 <pikhq> Midori, in concept, seems very, *very* insecure.
20:13:08 <AnMaster> what does Midori mean?
20:13:14 <tusho> AnMaster: green as in ecological
20:13:16 <tusho> like trees and shit
20:13:17 <tusho> (I believe)
20:13:19 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a word for a colour, it has a similar meaning to "green"
20:13:23 <AnMaster> ah
20:13:32 <ais523> but the two aren't exactly the same
20:13:32 <AnMaster> "similar meaning"?
20:13:43 <tusho> midori kind of signals how out of touch microsoft are
20:13:44 <AnMaster> ais523, so what shade of green then?
20:13:45 <pikhq> Basically, their security model: if the kernel is secure, then the OS is secure. If the kernel is insecure, then welcome to DOS.
20:13:51 <tusho> they come up with a project which is like a bastardised TUNES
20:13:52 <ais523> I don't know, I'm not an expert on Japanese
20:13:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's just green.
20:13:57 <tusho> except, more crap
20:13:58 * pikhq knows Japanese.
20:14:21 <tusho> oh and
20:14:29 <tusho> WINDOZE "MO' HA VEY"
20:14:33 <pikhq> It does happen to also have the same 'ecological' connotations.
20:14:39 <AnMaster> tusho, windows what?
20:14:47 <tusho> [spoiler]WINDOZE MO HA VEY IS PEOPLE^W VISTA[/spoiler]
20:14:50 <tusho> AnMaster: Mojave.
20:14:55 <AnMaster> ah
20:14:58 <tusho> They showed Vista to some people who had never used it
20:15:01 <tusho> but had heard bad things about it
20:15:03 <tusho> and thus disliked it
20:15:12 <tusho> they all loved "Mojave" then they told them it was Vista.
20:15:22 <tusho> Of course, they've carefully selected whose responses they've shown, etc.
20:15:25 <ais523> tusho: I wonder which bit of it they showed them, though?
20:15:28 <pikhq> They showed a 10 minute demo.
20:15:34 <tusho> well, yes exactly
20:15:38 <ais523> ah, so they didn't interact with it themselves?
20:15:38 <tusho> pikhq: didn't they let them use it a bit?
20:15:42 <pikhq> It wasn't "here, use this for a few days."
20:15:42 <tusho> in a limited fashion
20:15:47 <tusho> their website seemed to suggest that
20:15:50 <pikhq> It was a scripted demo.
20:15:54 <tusho> like, a 30-hour tour of it that they could actually use
20:15:56 <tusho> oh, ok
20:15:57 <tusho> that's even worse
20:16:01 <ais523> no copies from network shares to USB sticks?
20:16:06 <pikhq> Nope.
20:16:22 <pikhq> Just "Oooh, look. It can run Windows Media Player!"
20:16:29 <tusho> Jeez.
20:16:31 <pikhq> "Oh, wow. you mean the computer can play vidoes now?"
20:16:40 <tusho> vidoes indeed
20:16:42 <ais523> but the last good version of Windows Media Player was the one that came with Windows 98
20:16:54 <tusho> ais523: it has a continuation in Media Player Classic
20:16:59 <tusho> which has the interface of WMP 7
20:17:00 <ais523> ah, that's good to know
20:17:03 <tusho> but modern codecs, etc
20:17:04 <tusho> (not official)
20:17:14 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Player_Classic
20:17:21 <tusho> ah, 6.4
20:17:21 <tusho> not 7
20:17:32 <AnMaster> I just use mplayer, with win32codecs
20:17:38 <tusho> AnMaster: this is for windows
20:17:48 <tusho> mplayer on windows, while technically possible, is a bit pointless
20:17:54 <AnMaster> tusho, well vlc got a windows version iirc
20:17:54 <ais523> well, normally I'm playing things on Linux so there isn't a problem
20:18:03 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I've got VLC on my USB stick
20:18:04 <tusho> vlc has some major shortcomings
20:18:11 <ais523> it's the usual way to play ogg on Windows, I think
20:19:25 <AnMaster> anyway I haven't used windows for years
20:19:44 <AnMaster> well yes, I have, helped parents with computer problems, but not as my own OS
20:28:51 <psygnisf_> you know
20:29:02 <psygnisf_> for once i'd like to see a scifi show where computer programs look like computer programs
20:29:23 <ais523> I've seen scifi shows where they're apparently written in COBOL
20:29:48 <pikhq> I'd like to see sci-fi shows written by good sci-fi authors.
20:29:52 <psygnisf_> well, i do know that some stargate has used some JS stuff for replicator code
20:29:55 <Deewiant> Neon Genesis Evangelion had a snapshot of HTML
20:30:11 <psygnisf_> but i'd like to see some real potential code
20:30:54 <psygnisf_> like.. some forth code that actually looks like it does what its supposed to do
20:31:12 <psygnisf_> (i say forth because the NASA types use forth a lot, i hear)
20:32:02 <tusho> Deewiant: lisp too
20:32:05 <tusho> (why do I know this?)
20:32:37 <Deewiant> oh, where was that
20:32:52 * tusho shrugs. I have never watched the series.
20:32:58 <tusho> I know so much trivia about things I know nothing about...
20:33:26 <Deewiant> hmm, I seem to recall that Serial Experiments Lain had something in Lisp
20:33:40 <Deewiant> but not NGE, though
20:35:19 <psygnisf_> i can imagine SEL having it, definitely
20:35:25 <psygnisf_> they were total nerds, the writers and animators
20:35:28 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive.
20:35:49 <tusho> hmm, i think this is another anime series I know nothing about sans some trivia - doesn't it reference the knights of the lambda calculus?
20:35:53 <tusho> or am I confusing it with something else
20:36:07 <psygnisfive> it could
20:36:09 <psygnisfive> its lain
20:36:10 <psygnisfive> who the fuck knows
20:36:18 <Deewiant> I think it did
20:36:31 <Deewiant> but I'd really like to know where you got the Lisp in NGE :-P
20:36:33 <tusho> In the anime series Serial Experiments Lain, there is a secret society called the Knights of the Eastern Calculus which is a reference to the Knights of the Lambda Calculus.[1]
20:37:05 <tusho> Deewiant: it might have been c
20:37:11 <tusho> i am not good at -accurate- trivia
20:37:23 <ais523> tusho: are you good at making up inaccurate trivia on the spot?
20:37:35 <tusho> ais523: no, but Alan Turing was
20:37:41 <psygnisfive> haha
20:37:42 <tusho> he won a competition for making up inaccurate trivia on the spot in 1931
20:37:43 <psygnisfive> turing
20:37:44 <psygnisfive> <3
20:37:49 <tusho> (a year before he was born)
20:37:57 <psygnisfive> tusho <3
20:37:59 <psygnisfive> :D
20:38:04 * ais523 laughs at that, too
20:38:27 <psygnisfive> i love making up trivia at random
20:38:48 <psygnisfive> someone comments that such and such doesnt seem very much like something some group of people would do
20:39:11 <Deewiant> tusho: alright, then I'd like to know where you got anything-besides-HTML in NGE »_«
20:39:12 <psygnisfive> ill turn around and make up a long and extensive account of the cultural/historical significance of doing exactly that
20:39:20 <tusho> Deewiant: no idea, sorry
20:39:33 <Deewiant> meh
20:39:53 <psygnisfive> we should totally start a contest like that dude omg
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21:47:02 <AnMaster> "MSGQ"
21:47:05 <AnMaster> now that seems cool
21:47:12 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
21:47:20 <AnMaster> but what the heck does it actually do?
21:47:41 <AnMaster> shouldn't it, like, have an introduction
21:47:52 <ais523> it seems to maintain a message queue, a bit like the one Windows uses for all its API communications between processes
21:47:59 <AnMaster> oh my
21:48:01 <ais523> although based on the errno values this seems to be a UNIXised version of that
21:48:03 <AnMaster> "REXP" 0x52455850
21:48:03 <AnMaster> C(0gnirts flags -- )Compile a regular expression
21:48:05 <AnMaster> wtf :P
21:48:09 <AnMaster> just wtf
21:48:14 <AnMaster> we are going to get lazy it seems
21:48:24 <ais523> AnMaster: that's an optimisation for speed, I thought you liked those?
21:48:30 <AnMaster> "SETS" I don't get at all
21:48:40 <ais523> it's a Pascal data type
21:48:41 <AnMaster> ais523, no I mean having a regular expression extension at all
21:48:53 <ais523> AnMaster: what's WTF about that, regexen are useful
21:48:59 <AnMaster> ais523, assume it was over 7 years since I last messed with pascal
21:49:19 <ais523> ok, basically a set is to an enum as checkboxes are to radio boxes
21:49:22 <AnMaster> ais523, tell of any other esolang with regex as a loadable extension
21:49:25 <ais523> an enum can have exactly one value from its set
21:49:30 <AnMaster> ah
21:49:33 <AnMaster> so a bitmask?
21:49:35 <ais523> whereas a set can have 0, 1, or more
21:49:37 <ais523> like a bitmask
21:49:57 <tusho> {ais523, tell of any other esolang with regex as a loadable extension}
21:50:01 <AnMaster> or struct { bool first:1; bool second:1; and so on
21:50:02 <tusho> tell me another esolang with loadable extensions.
21:50:05 <tusho> or TRDS.
21:50:08 <AnMaster> tusho, good point ;P
21:50:11 <tusho> or TOYS.
21:50:12 <AnMaster> well there is perl
21:50:12 <tusho> or anything, really.
21:50:17 <AnMaster> it got loadable extensions
21:50:17 <tusho> perl is not an esolang
21:50:18 <ais523> tusho: C-INTERCAL has compilable-in extensions
21:50:19 <AnMaster> it got regex
21:50:26 <AnMaster> tusho, see entry on esolang wiki :P
21:50:26 <tusho> as much as cheap jokes would like you to believe.
21:50:28 <ais523> but I haven't done a regex one yet
21:50:33 <AnMaster> tusho, yeah I know :P
21:50:41 <lament> loadable extensions are boring
21:50:47 <AnMaster> "SMEM"
21:50:47 <lament> we need an esolang with unloadable extensions
21:50:48 <AnMaster> lol
21:50:51 <AnMaster> "shared memory segment"
21:50:54 <AnMaster> wtf is this :!
21:50:59 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a communication primitive
21:51:05 <ais523> to communicate between threads and/or processes
21:51:12 <ais523> you have memory that more than one process can read/write
21:51:14 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but I mean the whole fucking funge space is shared for gods sake!
21:51:15 <tusho> lament: a cannibalistic esolang
21:51:23 <tusho> it can end with removing the remove instruction itself
21:51:28 <lament> yep
21:51:32 <lament> BEGIN
21:51:35 <lament> REMOVE BEGIN
21:51:38 <lament> REMOVE END
21:51:40 <lament> REMOVE REMOVE
21:51:44 <AnMaster> ais523, semaphore tooo
21:51:57 <AnMaster> ais523, for gods sake, we got >< and p for a reason
21:51:58 <ais523> AnMaster: what if you're sharing memory with a non-Befunge program?
21:52:05 <AnMaster> ais523, is that what it does?
21:52:08 <AnMaster> it isn't clear at all then
21:52:09 <ais523> it looks like it can
21:52:21 <ais523> that's why it mentions all that POSIX stuff
21:52:31 <AnMaster> well shared memory is optional in POSIX iirc
21:52:55 <tusho> lament: don't see why you need begin/end
21:53:02 <tusho> anyway it's more mind-fucking if you can remove them using their own syntax
21:53:03 <tusho> like this:
21:53:04 <lament> so there's more stuff to remove
21:53:09 <tusho> !(!)
21:53:16 <lament> it's a language with unloadable extensions
21:53:16 <AnMaster> ais523, oh god a "STCK" too
21:53:18 <tusho> !(})
21:53:20 <ais523> I've written INTERCAL programs that end by ABSTAINING from all commands
21:53:21 <lament> so it needs some extensions to unload
21:53:28 <ais523> except GIVE UP
21:53:38 <AnMaster> "TRGR" 0x54524752
21:53:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't get that one at all
21:53:50 <AnMaster> it needs some introduction
21:54:04 <AnMaster> because no one will be able to understand what it does from the current docs
21:54:19 <ais523> ah, I think I get what it does
21:54:24 <AnMaster> oh?
21:54:24 <ais523> you have a set of subroutines
21:54:28 <ais523> which any thread can activate
21:54:34 <AnMaster> right
21:54:36 <ais523> and if you activate one it creates a new thread to run it
21:54:45 <ais523> so it's just shorthand for t followed by a jump
21:55:04 <AnMaster> ok... now I'm just waiting for PTHD (pthreads)
21:55:05 <AnMaster> ;P
21:55:10 <AnMaster> anyone want to define it?
21:55:12 <AnMaster> anyone?
21:55:21 <AnMaster> (no I won't implement it)
21:55:39 <AnMaster> "EMEM" 0x454d454d
21:55:39 <AnMaster> A(size -- hnd)Allocate memory
21:55:40 <AnMaster> oh god
21:55:47 <SimonRC> argh!"
21:55:55 <AnMaster> "This is essentially an interface into malloc."
21:55:56 <AnMaster> yep
21:56:00 <ais523> ok, I think e's just trying to port the whole of C's stdlib into Befunge
21:56:07 <AnMaster> ais523, :(
21:56:19 <AnMaster> ais523, he should have gone for a FFI simply
21:56:22 <ais523> I can see how a malloc-alike would be useful in Befunge, though
21:56:43 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
21:56:48 <ais523> because although Funge-without-fingerprints is fine for things like variable-length arrays
21:56:58 <ais523> it's no good for things like linked lists or n-ary trees
21:57:08 <AnMaster> ais523, this will mess up with stuff like garbage collector
21:57:08 <ais523> (it can do a binary tree with the heapsort storage trick, though)
21:57:13 <AnMaster> and non-C implementations
21:57:32 <SimonRC> AnMaster: not really
21:57:49 <ais523> AnMaster: I've implemented malloc in Perl before
21:57:50 <ais523> slowly
21:57:55 <AnMaster> ais523, it can do any of those things without fingerprints, it's Turing complete for gods sake
21:58:01 <ais523> but I rewrote the program in C for speed and just used built-in malloc
21:58:05 <SimonRC> e.g. for python just have a dictionary from int to list of bytes or whatever
21:58:17 <ais523> AnMaster: Turing completeness is not necessary good enough to do shared memory though
21:58:22 <AnMaster> ais523, agreed
21:58:26 <AnMaster> but why the heck do you want it
21:58:32 <SimonRC> (except python already has an interface to malloc)
21:58:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I never used shared memory in any program I ever wrote
21:59:01 <ais523> that doesn't mean it's useless
21:59:12 <AnMaster> indeed not
21:59:16 <AnMaster> but still
21:59:19 <ais523> I haven't used it either, but I haven't written the sort of program where it would be useful
21:59:27 <AnMaster> well what sort of program is that?
21:59:50 <ais523> one that needs high-speed communication with a known server
21:59:51 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway of those listed there I will most likely implement LONG when I have time
21:59:55 <AnMaster> not sure about the other ones
22:00:00 <AnMaster> probably one or two at most
22:00:03 <ais523> think clients for database programs communicating with a database daemon for instance
22:00:04 <AnMaster> and night
22:00:17 <AnMaster> ais523, mysql use sockets at least
22:00:28 <ais523> yes, it does, but shared memory could be faster for some things
22:00:35 <ais523> e.g. if you were storing bitmaps in the database
22:00:50 <ais523> and the database was stored in memory for some reason
22:00:54 <ais523> like performance
22:01:01 <AnMaster> night
22:01:23 <ais523> night
22:02:16 <tusho> night
22:03:56 <SimonRC> ais523: Does the memory need to be shared as such at any point?
22:04:23 <SimonRC> for a start, transactions will need duplication
22:04:28 <ais523> SimonRC: you can blit it from one process to the other
22:04:34 <ais523> and I was thinking of reading rather than writing
22:04:41 <SimonRC> ok
22:04:47 <ais523> writing would have to be slower I expect, due to the need for transactions
22:05:01 <SimonRC> if one process wants to write, transferring ownership is usually good enough
22:05:05 <ais523> but there are asm instructions for blitting nowadays
22:05:14 <SimonRC> ais523: are there?
22:05:21 <SimonRC> how fast are they?
22:05:22 <ais523> I think so, not sure though
22:05:27 <ais523> and probably faster than doing it the regular wayy
22:05:30 <ais523> s/y$//
22:06:00 <SimonRC> I have some ideas for an esoteric programming style that relies on really really fast blitting.
22:06:35 <SimonRC> like, a few 100 cycles to transfer 64kb of data
22:07:10 <SimonRC> it would need Smart Memory to be done well
22:07:24 <ais523> I don't think anything blits /that/ fast...
22:07:34 <ais523> except copy-on-write, but that just delays the blit
22:07:57 <SimonRC> I am thinking of reference-free programming
22:08:18 <SimonRC> programmming without pointers or references
22:08:27 <ais523> in Feather, pass by reference and pass by value are indistinguishable
22:08:29 <SimonRC> the idea is very undeveloped
22:08:32 <ais523> because all variables are read-only
22:08:36 <SimonRC> ais523: where is Feather?
22:08:49 <ais523> in my head, I've talked about it a lot but never managed to write a spec for it
22:08:49 <SimonRC> ais523: or Haskell for that matter
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22:08:54 <ais523> I've tried but it's difficult
22:09:09 <SimonRC> what, Haskell or Feather?
22:09:28 <ais523> Feather
22:09:36 <ais523> speccing it is non-trivial
22:09:41 <ais523> I think I'll have to write an interp first
22:09:47 <ais523> to see what is and isn't possible
22:09:52 <ais523> and use that as a guide for the spec
22:10:16 <SimonRC> how does it get round the no-mutation problems?
22:10:26 <SimonRC> the same way as most functional langs?
22:10:36 <ais523> you go back in time to the moment a variable received its value
22:10:40 <ais523> and change the value it received
22:10:45 <ais523> so no, not the same way as most functional langs
22:10:50 <SimonRC> oh wow!
22:11:10 <SimonRC> this should be good
22:11:30 <tusho> SimonRC: it has eval as a function
22:11:32 <tusho> and you can change the langauge
22:11:34 <tusho> by changing eval
22:11:40 <tusho> it starts off as a prototype-based language
22:11:44 <tusho> that handles inheritance through time travel
22:11:50 <SimonRC> lol
22:11:59 <tusho> you think I'm joking?
22:12:18 <SimonRC> no
22:13:00 <ais523> it's a bit hard to get it usable and self-consistent, though
22:15:17 -!- megatron has changed nick to moozilla.
22:15:52 <SimonRC> ais523: you don't say...
22:26:23 <tusho> who here wants to test a little design for a site I've been working on
22:26:28 <tusho> technically powered by mediawiki but that's irrelevant
22:26:42 <tusho> just looking for comments & suggestions, realy
22:26:43 <tusho> *really
22:26:47 <tusho> http://91.105.115.23/on/FooBarBaz:Sandbox
22:28:01 * SimonRC goes to bed in a moment.
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22:58:10 <tusho> lively channel today
22:59:30 <KingOfKarlsruhe> tusho: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/81438/
22:59:43 <tusho> more vab
23:00:17 <ais523> it reminds me a bit of Deadfish
23:00:19 <KingOfKarlsruhe> my first code in C :)
23:00:26 <tusho> ais523: it is basically
23:00:31 <tusho> that french guy's first lang
23:00:36 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
23:00:41 <tusho> marty or whatever
23:04:21 <KingOfKarlsruhe> is the name of this language Deadfish ?
23:04:47 <tusho> no
23:21:30 <ais523> Deadfish has a square command rather than double and halve, and uses different characters for the commands
23:21:40 <ais523> also it sets the value to 0 if it ever becomes 256 or -1
23:33:04 <tusho> ZOOOOOOOOOOM
23:33:10 <ais523> s/M/P/
23:33:17 <tusho> ZOOOOOOOOOOT
23:44:06 <Tritonio_> anybody here?
23:44:21 <Tritonio_> i am reading about cutting down brainfuck's commands...
23:44:25 <Tritonio_> about the unified i/o
23:44:27 <ais523> I'm here for a few minutes
23:44:29 <Tritonio_> [<,>]@[<.>@]
23:44:30 <ais523> possibly less
23:44:38 <ais523> have you read the Esolang page about cutting it down?
23:44:40 <Tritonio_> is this thing right?
23:44:45 <Tritonio_> yeap
23:44:52 <Tritonio_> that what's i am reading now
23:44:56 <tusho> gosh, ais523 is still here
23:45:00 <tusho> and it's almost midnight
23:45:12 <ais523> tusho: you can tell if I'm here by looking to see if I'm still here, I disconnect when I leave
23:45:19 <Tritonio_> but the first loop in the code I posted seems like an infinite one... or not?
23:45:35 <ais523> yes, it is
23:45:43 <Tritonio_> ??? then?
23:45:44 <tusho> ais523: http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/b/b5/Exploding-head.gif
23:45:47 <ais523> half the BF minimisation page looks wrong to me
23:45:56 <Tritonio_> ah ok...
23:46:04 <Tritonio_> i'll put a note there...
23:46:47 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"").
23:48:01 <tusho> zot
23:54:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).

2008-08-07:

00:02:50 -!- Corun has joined.
00:18:43 <psygnisfive> x.x
00:18:54 <psygnisfive> i accidentally snorted cayenne pepper powder x.x
00:22:42 -!- tusho has quit.
00:28:30 <lament> psygnisfive: oooh
00:28:35 <lament> describe your sensations
00:28:39 <psygnisfive> sneezey
00:28:45 <psygnisfive> then a tingly bit in my nose
00:28:47 <psygnisfive> thats about it
00:29:04 <lament> boring
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01:40:36 <bsmntbombdood> <psygnisfive> thats about it
01:40:47 <bsmntbombdood> this shows that he didn't snort cayenne pepper
01:40:54 <psygnisfive> i did!
01:41:02 <psygnisfive> well, i didnt snort a LOT of it
01:41:12 <bsmntbombdood> maybe 2 grains of powder
01:41:17 <psygnisfive> just what powder was floating in the air
01:41:19 <psygnisfive> but
01:41:23 <bsmntbombdood> on
01:41:24 <bsmntbombdood> *oh
01:41:38 <psygnisfive> but i knew it quite immediately
01:41:48 <psygnisfive> and it stayed tingly for a while
01:41:50 <psygnisfive> like ten minutes
01:41:52 <bsmntbombdood> i know that actually insufflating cayenne paper will incapacitate you for at least half an hour
01:42:06 <psygnisfive> oh im sure it will if you snort a line of it, yeah
01:42:09 <bsmntbombdood> yeah
01:43:41 <pikhq> ... Snorting cayenne?
01:43:52 <psygnisfive> yeah man
01:43:56 <bsmntbombdood> i once made a batch of popcorn and accidentally used cayenne instead of paprika. it was left unedible but for some reason i left it on the counter for a few days, and every time i walked past i would forget and be like "oooh popcorn!" and eat some and spend a while sneezing and crying
01:43:57 <pikhq> I may be a bit of a capsaicin nut, but that seems a bit much, even for me.
01:43:57 <psygnisfive> its all the rage these days
01:44:01 <psygnisfive> its the newest high
01:44:11 <psygnisfive> they call users pepperheads on the street
01:44:29 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Um, how would that be unedible?
01:44:39 <pikhq> Cayenne isn't *that* hot.
01:44:54 <pikhq> Okay, fine, so it might taste shitty...
01:45:06 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: the airborne powder was most of the problem
01:45:08 <psygnisfive> bsmntbombdood: hahaha sux2bu
01:45:10 <pikhq> But unedible?
01:45:32 <psygnisfive> unedible is also totally not the word
01:45:35 <psygnisfive> its inedible
01:45:43 <bsmntbombdood> like i said, eating it caused sneezing, sniffling, and crying
01:45:50 <pikhq> Weak.
01:46:17 <pikhq> Some people react like that to jalepenos. ;)
01:46:25 <psygnisfive> did you know that paprika is just dried powderized red bell peppers?
01:46:42 <psygnisfive> and that almost all hot peppers, and bell peppers as well, are actually just different varieties of the same species?
01:46:51 <bsmntbombdood> isn't that common knowledge?
01:47:01 <pikhq> Actually, there's about 3 or 4 different species of capsicum.
01:47:02 <psygnisfive> not common enough for me to know! :(
01:47:23 <psygnisfive> but im from amerkuh so who knows
01:47:38 <pikhq> Most of them are cultivars of one capsicum species, IIRC, but there are a few other species.
01:47:47 <psygnisfive> pikhq: i know there are three or four species, but most, e.g. cayennes, jalapenos, habaneros, etc. are all the same species
01:48:10 <pikhq> Habaneros are a different species from jalepenos, IIRC.
01:48:29 <pikhq> But jalepenos, cayennes, bell peppers, etc. are definitely the same species.
01:48:48 <psygnisfive> ah youre right
01:48:55 <psygnisfive> jalapenos are c. annuum
01:49:01 <psygnisfive> habaneros are c. chinense
01:49:06 <pikhq> :)
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01:50:23 <bsmntbombdood> grrrr window manager typo
01:50:31 <psygnisfive> lolwut
01:51:47 <bsmntbombdood> M-c instead of M-space
01:51:58 <psygnisfive> i dont understand :D
01:52:45 <bsmntbombdood> ...M-c closes the current window, M-space shows/hides the scratchpad
01:53:04 <pikhq> For the record: pvmove fuckups *suck*.
01:53:27 <psygnisfive> that is a shitty design
01:53:52 <bsmntbombdood> not really
01:54:21 <psygnisfive> sure it is
01:54:50 <psygnisfive> space and c are really close together and its silly to assign that functionality to them
01:55:08 <psygnisfive> itd be like assigning "save" and "close without save" to two adjacent keys
01:55:35 <bsmntbombdood> clumsy fingers aren't the designer's fault
01:56:07 <pikhq> Of all the typos I've done, c instead of space is not among them.
01:56:32 <bsmntbombdood> put your thumb on meta and then try
01:56:54 <pikhq> Okay, so my right thumb is on meta.
01:57:07 <psygnisfive> thats not the point tho
01:57:11 <pikhq> And my left thumb on space.
01:57:16 <bsmntbombdood> ...and use your right index on space :P
01:57:22 <psygnisfive> good user interface design dictates that such things should not be so close together
02:12:49 <psygnisfive> who wants moroccan beef stew? :D
02:17:38 <bsmntbombdood> lol tornado brb
02:19:59 <psygnisfive> "lol tornado brb"
02:20:04 <psygnisfive> so quoted.
02:20:33 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | <bsmntbombdood> lol tornado brb.
02:26:44 <pikhq> Who the hell uses the right index finger on space?
02:27:09 <pikhq> I mean, honestly; the index finger just damned well better not be moving that damned far.
02:28:01 <Dewi> pikhq: actually I do
02:28:18 <Dewi> pikhq: not consciously, but occasionally I have encountered these insane keyboards where the right half of the spacebar is backspace
02:28:35 <Dewi> pikhq: and it's quite possibly the worst design decision in the history of human interface devices
02:29:03 <Dewi> (oh actually I mean thumb, not index finger)
02:31:36 <pikhq> ... The right half of the spacebar is backspace?
02:31:40 <pikhq> Um, *what*?!?
02:31:44 <pikhq> That is *terrible*.
02:32:01 <pikhq> Next person to move backspace from the upper right of the keyboard gets shot, IMO.
02:32:20 * pikhq thinks that Sun should be shot, for what it's worth
02:34:07 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: left actually
02:34:26 <bsmntbombdood> if i were to use my other thumb i'd have to take my hand off the mouse, my drink, my cock, whatever
02:37:38 <Dewi> pikhq: yeah, I tried using it for like half an hour and eventually conceded defeat. I just could *not* use it
02:38:03 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: "Mouse"?
02:38:03 <Dewi> pikhq: I can't even remember where this was. Maybe some ancient computer lab at university
02:38:29 <pikhq> Oh, that's that pointless input device that sits next to my keyboard, isn't it?
02:38:36 <Dewi> hmm
02:38:49 <bsmntbombdood> "ooooh i don't use a mouse my epeen is huuuuuuuuge look at me!"
02:38:56 <Dewi> Why *do* we have separate devices for mouse and cock? They could probably be merged...
02:39:15 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: My epeen is only huge because I wrote PEBBLE. :p
02:39:29 <pikhq> My lack of a mouse is only for personal sanity purposes.
02:39:51 <Dewi> pikhq: the mouse is useful for web browsing and games
02:40:02 <pikhq> Games, yes.
02:40:08 <pikhq> Web browsing? Meh.
02:40:17 <Dewi> pikhq: speaking of which, did they ever fix hit-a-hint or come up with any decent keyboard browsing tools?
02:40:18 <pikhq> Link numbering is very handy.
02:40:34 <bsmntbombdood> not as handy as a mouse
02:40:35 <Dewi> pikhq: if you're using lynx, yeah. What about in firefox?
02:40:47 <pikhq> I use the Conkeror web browser. . .
02:41:04 <Dewi> cute
02:41:14 <Dewi> except it says "inspired by emacs" at the top
02:41:15 <pikhq> Which is a browser with an Emacs-like interface in XULrunner.
02:41:32 <pikhq> It also has a Vi mode, though I'm not sure how useful that is.
02:41:42 <Dewi> the only thing emacs inspires is fear, misery, and wretchedness
02:41:55 <Dewi> or maybe I should do that tutorial
02:42:00 <Dewi> and join the cult
02:42:19 <bsmntbombdood> there's a plugin for firefox that emulates emacs
02:42:19 <Dewi> I certainly feel more inclined to do so now that I know there is xemacs made by people who think stallman is nuts
02:42:27 <bsmntbombdood> give it a similar interface that is
02:42:31 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: That would be Conkeror.
02:42:37 <bsmntbombdood> oh lol
02:42:53 <Dewi> ooh, vi mode?
02:43:02 <pikhq> Conkeror used to be a Firefox plugin; they've found that it's much easier to get it to play nicely by just using XULrunner.
02:43:39 <bsmntbombdood> never heard of it
02:43:54 <bsmntbombdood> i tried conkeror for a while, but it was pretty poorly done
02:44:07 <Dewi> anyway there is a firefox extension that allows you to hold a key and it renders chord-key-sequences next to every link
02:44:20 <Dewi> which works nicely but they made some stupid change like breaking the spacebar
02:44:26 <Dewi> and I haven't used it since
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02:48:11 <pikhq> It's much better done now.
02:48:28 <pikhq> If you will excuse me, I need to go into single user mode to futz with LVM.
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02:49:06 <bsmntbombdood> cool
02:57:42 <bsmntbombdood> broke any other extensions that use the ui if i remember right
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03:30:23 <pikhq> Well, I'm logged in and still pvmove'ing.
03:30:41 <pikhq> Though I *am* here with /home readonly.
03:35:24 <psygnisfive> mlargle!
03:37:44 <pikhq> I've developed an extreme sense of paranoia towards LVM recently...
03:44:14 <lament> this chinese food smells remarkably like ass.
03:44:22 <bsmntbombdood> hawt, can i have some?
03:49:58 <lament> i'm afraid you can have all of it
03:53:05 <pikhq> (ya dirty shisno)
04:05:23 <psygnisfive> so guys
04:05:39 <psygnisfive> whos interested in a competition for who can come up with the best on-the-fly random trivia?
04:05:48 <psygnisfive> thats also compeltely fake?
04:08:45 <lament> curse the ipod for not having a sound recorder
04:10:52 <pikhq> Gladly.
04:18:57 <lament> thanks
04:20:37 <pikhq> I'll also laugh at it.
04:20:52 <pikhq> And, for that matter, laugh at all MP3 players not running Rockbox. :p
04:22:09 <psygnisfive> lament: thats funny
04:22:17 <psygnisfive> because they sell microphones for your ipod to do just that
04:22:38 <psygnisfive> tho i dont know if they're actually using software on the ipod or not
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04:31:18 <lament> hmm
04:31:31 <lament> i don't think the ipod itself has any software for sound recording
04:32:17 <psygnisfive> ipod touch :D
04:32:46 <lament> i mean my ipod
04:32:55 <psygnisfive> i mean buy a new one
04:33:11 <lament> no?
04:33:19 <psygnisfive> oh well.
04:35:19 <lament> sorry.
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05:32:45 <psygnisfive> lalala
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06:40:30 <psygnisfive> O_O_O_O_O
06:40:33 <psygnisfive> is NOONe here?!
06:40:33 <psygnisfive> :)
06:40:34 <psygnisfive> ..
06:40:36 <psygnisfive> :(
06:40:52 <CakeProphet> :D
06:40:56 <psygnisfive> hey
06:41:37 <lament> hello walking penis
06:41:47 <psygnisfive> im a walking penis? :O
06:47:36 <GregorR> Who isn't?
06:47:43 <GregorR> I MEAN, UH
06:47:54 <GregorR> *whew*, almost blew the cover of the EVIL WALKING PENIS PEOPLE
06:49:34 <lament> shhhh
06:49:53 <psygnisfive> ugh, i hate stupidity in science fiction :|
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07:53:21 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, example?
07:53:29 <psygnisfive> ok
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07:53:44 <psygnisfive> so in stargate atlantis theyve constructed this string of stargates from one galaxy to another, right
07:53:59 <psygnisfive> and halfway across theres a station for security purposes
07:54:12 -!- Judofyr has joined.
07:54:24 <psygnisfive> but, instead of doing like they do in every other facility they build, they DONT build an iris over the gate
07:54:36 <psygnisfive> result? absolutely no ability to resist an incursion.
07:55:31 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, iris?
07:55:35 <AnMaster> what the heck is that?
07:55:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, assume I don't know what stargate is :)
07:56:00 <fizzie> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris_(Stargate)
07:56:15 <psygnisfive> its basically a thing that closes over the stargate to prevent things from coming through
07:56:23 <psygnisfive> anmaster, have you never seen stargate?
07:56:25 <fizzie> It's mentioned in the "iris" disambiguation page.
07:56:42 <fizzie> Wikipedia: a big bag of trivia about TV series.
07:56:48 <psygnisfive> yes.
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09:15:23 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, nop
09:15:34 <psygnisfive> nop?
09:15:48 <AnMaster> as in "no"
09:15:59 <AnMaster> but with an extra key press
09:16:02 <AnMaster> that wasn't intended
09:16:27 <AnMaster> also known as "typo"
09:16:57 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I have indeed never seen stargate
09:17:32 <psygnisfive> well if you say indeed enough people will think you have
09:18:30 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, ??
09:19:00 <psygnisfive> one of the main characters, Teal'C, says "Indeed" quite a bit
09:19:08 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, how should I know?
09:19:17 <psygnisfive> it's a bit of a spock-ish "Fascinating, captain" trait
09:19:19 <ErkiDerLoony> Well there are more people saying indeed quite often.
09:19:23 <psygnisfive> you shouldn't, i was commenting.
09:19:28 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, ah yes I have seen some Star Trek though
09:19:37 <AnMaster> ErkiDerLoony, yes indeed :P
09:19:45 <ErkiDerLoony> :)
09:21:04 <AnMaster> for example in the Discworld series, "Havelock Vetinari" tend to say indeed quite a bit
09:21:08 * AnMaster is a Discworld fan
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09:24:35 <psygnisfive> NOMADS!
09:25:08 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, hehehe
09:32:09 <psygnisfive> i want to write a story! :|
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09:53:42 <tusho> psygnisfive: NOMADICALLY
09:54:54 <psygnisfive> <3
09:55:34 <tusho> NOMADS HAVE THREE FUNCTIONS
09:55:43 <tusho> TERURN :: M A -> A
09:56:10 <tusho> BIDN :: A -> (M A -> B) -> B
09:56:16 <tusho> FIAL :: STRING -> A
09:58:31 -!- Mony has joined.
09:58:58 <Mony> hi !
10:04:40 <tusho> hi Mony
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10:49:42 * tusho writes a parser for a restricted subset of querying english
10:49:53 <tusho> rabbit's tails' lengths -> rabbit.tails.map(length)
10:50:08 <tusho> and then I can parse "x is y", "x has y" and build up a silly little knowledge databse
10:50:11 <tusho> *database
10:50:14 <tusho> via irc!
10:54:47 <Mony> :o
11:01:03 <tusho> hmmmm
11:01:26 <tusho> "the length of the rabbit's tail is 5cm" -> (is (rabbit tail length) (5cm)) is kind of non-trivial...
11:01:27 <tusho> :(
11:02:22 <fizzie> Everything automatically becomes non-trivial when natural languages are involved.
11:05:36 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
11:10:20 <tusho> fizzie: But of course.
11:10:31 <tusho> Still, "rabbit's tail" and "the length of the rabbit's tail" are trivial.
11:10:36 <tusho> It's those pesky assignments
11:22:10 <AnMaster> tusho, what about "x got y" ;P
11:22:21 <tusho> AnMaster: botte might automatically correct you for that
11:22:21 <tusho> :p
11:22:30 <tusho> say, kicks you from ESO each time you have it wrong
11:22:30 <AnMaster> tusho, no thanks
11:22:32 <tusho> (ARF ARF ARF)
11:22:37 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway that wouldn't work
11:22:47 <AnMaster> because there have to be cases where got is correct
11:22:56 <tusho> yes
11:22:57 <tusho> it'd be magical
11:22:59 <AnMaster> tusho, which I would then make a point of using
11:32:28 <tusho> ☃
11:32:35 <tusho> U+2603 SNOWMAN
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11:33:04 -!- tusho has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | <bsmntbombdood> lol tornado brb | ☃.
11:50:00 <tusho> ⚆
11:57:01 <AnMaster> tusho, that's quite wtf
11:57:14 <AnMaster> what did they think when adding such a symbol
11:57:15 <tusho> ☃⚆ snowman with circle with dot
11:57:19 <AnMaster> OH I GET IT!
11:57:20 <tusho> AnMaster: it's in the misc. symbols section
11:57:26 <tusho> presumably signs used it
11:57:27 <tusho> or something
11:57:41 <AnMaster> they don't like that "a picture can say more than a thousand words"
11:57:50 <tusho> unicode has 'REVERSED ROTATED FLORAL HEART BULLET'
11:57:55 <AnMaster> so they prefer "an unicode char can say more than a thousands words"
11:57:55 <tusho> ☙
11:57:57 <tusho> U+2767
11:58:04 <tusho> 'Comments: a binding signature mark'
11:58:06 <fizzie> Unicode is the fun. I like U+203d "INTERROBANG".
11:58:26 <tusho> who doesn't like the interoobang‽
11:58:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, well that is sane compared to some other stuff
11:58:31 <tusho> *interrobang
11:58:38 <AnMaster> tusho, me!!
11:58:41 <AnMaster> ;P
11:58:44 <tusho> AnMaster: why not‽
11:58:53 <AnMaster> tusho, just because you like it
11:58:59 <AnMaster> can't share an opinion with you
11:59:01 <tusho> AnMaster: you're not seeing these are you‽
11:59:09 <AnMaster> yes I am
11:59:15 <fizzie> The out-of-BMP characters get very bizarre, too: U+1d337 "TETRAGRAM FOR VASTNESS OR WASTING".
11:59:21 <AnMaster> but in this font and at this size it looks like a blurry question mark
11:59:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, indeed, how does it look?
11:59:38 <tusho> AnMaster: out of BMP
11:59:41 <tusho> your font probably doesn't have it
11:59:44 <AnMaster> ah
11:59:45 <tusho> code2000, maybe
11:59:50 <AnMaster> tusho, Dejavu font
11:59:57 <tusho> yeah, doubtful
12:00:01 <tusho> here 'tis though:
12:00:01 <AnMaster> ok
12:00:08 <tusho> 𝌷
12:00:11 <AnMaster> I see it
12:00:16 <tusho> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1d337/index.htm for a better view
12:00:40 <AnMaster> looks like Chinese char?
12:00:46 <AnMaster> could explain it
12:00:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, ^
12:00:50 <tusho> uh
12:00:51 <tusho> no...
12:00:55 <AnMaster> "Block  Tai Xuan Jing Symbols"
12:00:58 <tusho> it looks nothing like a chinese character, dude
12:01:02 <tusho> it's a tetragram
12:01:04 <AnMaster> *sounds* like Chinese char too
12:01:07 <AnMaster> tusho, a what?
12:01:10 <tusho> google it
12:01:15 <tusho> and it looks nothing like a chinese char
12:01:43 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language
12:01:45 <tusho> that's what chinese looks like
12:01:46 <fizzie> Well, it _is_ Chinese, in a sense.
12:01:51 <tusho> fizzie: well yes
12:01:53 <tusho> but it's a tetragram
12:01:56 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_Xuan_Jing
12:04:23 <AnMaster> An unicode character can say more than a thousand ASCII characters
12:04:31 <AnMaster> new version of "a picture can..."
12:04:32 <AnMaster> ;P
12:04:51 <fizzie> They could replace the traffic STOP signs with the "tetragram for stoppage".
12:05:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is one?
12:05:18 <fizzie> U+1d34c.
12:05:24 <AnMaster> oh god
12:05:48 <fizzie> I guess the joke would be lost on most people.
12:05:57 <AnMaster> yes it does I guess
12:06:39 <AnMaster> "stoppage" seems very odd
12:08:35 <fizzie> stoppage: 1. Deduction from payments; a sum "stopped" or deducted from the pay of a soldier, workman, or servant. 1465 Paston Lett. II. 221, I told hym that..I wold pay hym his dewte without any stoppage.
12:08:46 <AnMaster> ah
12:09:01 <AnMaster> "dewte"?
12:09:05 <tusho> AnMaster: duty
12:09:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, wtf is "dewte"?
12:09:07 <AnMaster> ah
12:09:11 <AnMaster> right
12:09:11 <tusho> note the year - 1465
12:09:14 <tusho> :p
12:09:15 <AnMaster> oh yes
12:09:36 <AnMaster> "hym" == him I guess?
12:10:07 <tusho> yes
12:10:10 <tusho> amusingly reminds me of "womyn"
12:10:16 <tusho> and wold = would, etc.
12:10:51 <fizzie> They haven't been too carefull with the spelling. OED quotations for "duty" include deuyte (1297), duetee (1386), dewte (1440), dywtes (1476), dewtie (1573) and more.
12:11:00 <tusho> fizzie: carefull?
12:11:02 <tusho> I see you haven't either :P
12:11:04 <fizzie> And I don't seem to be very care-full either, yes.
12:11:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, OED?
12:11:10 <tusho> AnMaster: oxford english dictionary
12:11:16 <AnMaster> ah
12:11:20 <tusho> let's start spelling it duti
12:11:34 <tusho> ⌤ -^-
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12:12:09 <AnMaster> tusho, I recently saw some unicode char like _ but at the top of the line
12:12:14 <tusho> yes. ⌨
12:12:18 <AnMaster> tusho, nop
12:12:22 <AnMaster> it was higher up
12:12:25 <tusho> uh
12:12:26 <AnMaster> and a single line
12:12:27 <tusho> that's a keyboard
12:12:33 <AnMaster> oh
12:12:36 <tusho> use your ⌨ to type a ☃ using unicode technologies
12:13:31 <tusho> ❪l i s p❫
12:13:41 <AnMaster> anyway... what about that under line thing
12:13:46 <tusho> shrug
12:13:50 <AnMaster> ❫ ) ?
12:13:59 <AnMaster> what is that bold )?
12:14:01 <tusho> AnMaster: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/index.htm
12:14:04 <tusho> ;)
12:14:07 <tusho> and it's some unicode char
12:14:08 <tusho> obviously
12:14:12 <AnMaster> tusho, for what?
12:14:14 <tusho> it is literally "strong )" or something
12:14:16 <tusho> AnMaster: dunno
12:14:22 <AnMaster> blergh
12:14:32 <AnMaster> tusho, and yet they rejected Klingon?
12:14:40 <tusho> AnMaster: i didn't say there was no use
12:14:44 <tusho> I said I did not know what it was
12:14:55 <AnMaster> tusho, no but snowman char has no use IMO
12:15:13 <tusho> AnMaster: and obviously you personally know more about what characters are useful than the entire unicode consortium
12:15:14 <tusho> right?
12:16:02 <AnMaster> tusho, nop, but I don't think some of those are usefuk
12:16:05 <AnMaster> useful*
12:16:15 <tusho> AnMaster: you can safely assume you're wrong
12:16:20 <tusho> also it's nope :p
12:16:29 -!- deveah has joined.
12:16:40 <deveah> Hi dudes
12:17:08 <deveah> the International 1kb-of-code roguelike contest is awesome
12:17:23 <tusho> cool
12:17:48 <deveah> I know
12:18:12 <deveah> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.development/browse_thread/thread/ec8714cda9f0c8bc#
12:18:16 <deveah> already made mine
12:18:16 <tusho> i have a 20-line mud written in ruby somewhere around here
12:18:35 <deveah> if it's <=1kb, you should post it on usenet
12:19:03 <tusho> it's not a rougelike
12:19:03 <tusho> it's a mud
12:19:05 <tusho> and I didn't write it
12:19:13 <deveah> oh
12:20:35 <tusho> p.s. I'd call that first one more like non-real-time pacman ;)
12:20:50 <deveah> Ido's ?
12:20:58 <tusho> yea
12:21:39 <deveah> how 'bout mine?
12:22:26 <deveah> btw, I made an esolang based on OISC, "^" - with a different instruction: Reverse-Substract-and-Jump-if-Negative
12:22:34 <deveah> (jumps to -val)
12:22:58 <AnMaster> deveah, what computational class?
12:23:13 <deveah> what's that?
12:23:20 <AnMaster> ...
12:23:27 <deveah> it only has one memory cell
12:23:33 <deveah> so it can't be Turing-complete
12:23:38 <deveah> if that's what you mean
12:23:40 <AnMaster> ah
12:24:10 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Computational_class
12:24:40 * tusho considers writing a little forth/factor-alike for writing silly things like fibonacci programs and tiny rougelike games like deveah's
12:25:24 <deveah> you should participate
12:25:32 <deveah> it's easy :D
12:25:45 <AnMaster> deveah, 1 kb source?
12:25:46 <tusho> i suck at curses
12:25:47 <tusho> and games
12:25:59 <deveah> sourcecode, yes
12:26:23 <deveah> my game rules http://pastie.org/249060
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12:28:32 <AnMaster> deveah, what language?
12:28:48 <deveah> freebasic
12:28:53 <AnMaster> why basic!?
12:28:54 <AnMaster> :(
12:29:11 <deveah> because freebasic = basic + C++
12:29:21 <deveah> qbasic + C++
12:29:31 <deveah> it uses curses
12:30:07 <AnMaster> what the heck has C++ got to do with it?
12:30:27 <AnMaster> anyway C++ is a correct name, it is a post increment
12:30:38 <AnMaster> meaning... that it is no better than C
12:30:45 <AnMaster> IMO worse than C
12:30:54 <AnMaster> if they meant it was better they should have called it ++C
12:30:54 <deveah> freebasic can include any C++ header file, it's the fastest BASIC ever
12:31:04 <tusho> AnMaster: your trolling is much appreciated
12:31:04 <deveah> +=C
12:31:07 <AnMaster> deveah, but why basic!
12:31:09 <tusho> unfortunately it's completely irrelevant
12:31:20 <deveah> because it's the only language I know
12:31:27 <AnMaster> tusho, not trolling, rant!
12:31:31 <deveah> and a bit of PHP, too
12:31:45 <tusho> AnMaster: no. trolling
12:33:09 <tusho> hmm
12:33:10 <tusho> 0 1 [dup [+ printnl] dip swap] loop
12:33:22 <tusho> println = .n, I guess, it's common enough
12:33:32 <tusho> 0 1 [dup [+ .n] dip swap] loop
12:33:40 <deveah> wtf is that?
12:33:53 <AnMaster> some forth like language I think
12:34:01 <AnMaster> considering it is doing what seems to be stack operations
12:34:10 <AnMaster> I'm not very familiar with forth though
12:34:24 <tusho> a language i'm making yeah
12:34:34 <AnMaster> tusho, stack based I suspect?
12:34:39 <tusho> yes
12:34:48 <AnMaster> and heavily influenced by forth?
12:35:02 <AnMaster> but made for golfing? It seems rather compact
12:35:11 <tusho> heavily influenced by forth and factor
12:35:19 <tusho> not made for golfing, but made to be concise
12:35:20 <deveah> Fortor
12:35:21 <tusho> 0 .n 0 1 [dup [+ .n] dip swap] loop
12:35:24 <tusho> full fibonacci program
12:35:26 <AnMaster> tusho, not familiar with factor
12:35:27 <tusho> will output like this
12:35:27 <tusho> 0
12:35:28 <tusho> 1
12:35:28 <tusho> 1
12:35:28 <deveah> Forktor
12:35:30 <tusho> 2 ...
12:35:30 <tusho> etc
12:35:34 <tusho> deveah: *g*
12:35:38 <tusho> might call it spork
12:35:44 <tusho> AnMaster: anyway i'll lead you through that prog
12:35:50 <tusho> 0 .n 0 1 [dup [+ .n] dip swap] loop -> first we print out 0 and a nelwine
12:35:54 <AnMaster> tusho, it looks very interesting
12:35:59 <tusho> then we put 0 and 1 on the stack (let's call them a and b)
12:36:05 <tusho> then we put a lambda which we loop forever which does this:
12:36:13 <tusho> duplicates the top entry (-> a b b)
12:36:15 <deveah> or The Might Forkthor Masmerizer Language That's Actually Named Spork
12:36:21 <deveah> *Mighty
12:36:33 <AnMaster> tusho, then?
12:36:38 <tusho> then "dips under" one element for a lambda: inside the lambda we have (a b), we add them together giving (c), then we output that and a newline
12:36:45 <tusho> we come out of the dip so it's now (c b)
12:36:50 <tusho> we swap that (b c)
12:36:54 <tusho> and then it goes to the next loop
12:37:01 <tusho> duplicates - (b c c), etc
12:37:02 <AnMaster> tusho, very nice
12:37:02 <tusho> forever
12:37:19 <tusho> the equivalent python:
12:37:19 <tusho> a, b = 0, 0
12:37:20 <tusho> while True:
12:37:20 <tusho>     a, b = b, a + b
12:37:20 <tusho>     print a
12:37:22 <deveah> Forktor4Evah
12:37:28 <tusho> you should be able to make out the c from that, presumably
12:37:32 <tusho> oh wait
12:37:36 <tusho> that python needs 'print 0' in front of it
12:37:44 <tusho> but yeah, very happy with that conciseness
12:37:55 <AnMaster> tusho, I'm unable to parse "a, b = b, a + b"
12:38:08 <tusho> AnMaster: it's "a = b, b = a + b"
12:38:13 <tusho> except in the b assignment, the a is the old a
12:38:17 <tusho> you can swap vars like this
12:38:19 <tusho> a, b = b, a
12:38:23 <AnMaster> nifty
12:38:34 <tusho> AnMaster: that is, in C, you'd have to use a temp var
12:38:43 <tusho> temp = a; a = b; b = tmp + b (b += tmp)
12:39:00 <AnMaster> tusho, or asm( XCHG a, b ) ;P
12:39:04 <tusho> :p
12:39:04 <AnMaster> not portable
12:39:07 <AnMaster> and not correct syntax
12:40:33 <tusho> AnMaster: here's a cat program
12:40:34 <tusho> >n [] [.n >n] while
12:40:37 <tusho> >n = read line
12:40:56 <tusho> the first argument - the block that sets up the condition - does nothing, so it evaluates the truth-value of the top thing on the stack
12:41:03 <tusho> the body of the while outputs a line then reads in another one
12:41:09 <tusho> (>n returns false on EOF)
12:41:44 <tusho> a shorter version:
12:41:45 <tusho> [.n] stdin each
12:41:53 <tusho> looping through a file object goes through all the lines
12:41:54 <tusho> as a convenience
12:43:38 <tusho> er wait
12:43:40 <tusho> stdin [.n] each
12:43:41 <tusho> obviously
12:45:21 * tusho thinks about function definitions
12:45:25 <tusho> hmmm
12:45:44 <AnMaster> tusho, here is a cat program:
12:45:47 <AnMaster> /bin/cat
12:45:48 <AnMaster> ;P
12:45:56 <tusho> AnMaster: oh shush you :D
12:46:03 <AnMaster> actually:
12:46:14 <AnMaster> #!/bin/sh
12:46:20 <AnMaster> /bin/cat "$@"
12:46:30 <tusho> and here's a quine
12:46:36 <tusho> #!/bin/cat
12:46:45 <AnMaster> tusho, yes I know
12:46:49 <tusho> :p
12:47:13 <tusho> AnMaster: behold
12:47:13 <tusho> stdin reverse [.n] each
12:47:25 <tusho> for input a\nb\nc\n, outputs c\nb\na\n
12:48:27 <AnMaster> what about:
12:48:32 <AnMaster> abc\ndef
12:48:41 <tusho> def\nabc\n
12:48:44 <AnMaster> ah
12:48:52 <AnMaster> tusho, write a reverse char by char one please :D
12:48:58 <tusho> AnMaster: okay
12:49:06 <tusho> stdin chars reverse [.] each
12:49:20 <AnMaster> tusho, hey you make up the syntax to make it as short as possible
12:49:23 <tusho> no
12:49:24 <AnMaster> that is cheating
12:49:24 <tusho> I don't
12:49:27 <tusho> it's not syntax
12:49:30 <tusho> the semantics are well-defined
12:49:31 <AnMaster> tusho, write specs please
12:49:36 <tusho> AnMaster: no, i don't want to
12:49:40 <AnMaster> tusho, where is chars and reverse defined
12:49:41 <tusho> but I can tell you how that works
12:49:59 <tusho> it has methods (which are really just functions specializing on the type of their arguments)
12:50:05 <tusho> {stdin} is an opaque data structure
12:50:11 <tusho> and, it implements all the list methods
12:50:13 <AnMaster> tusho, reverse pairs of chars: so abcdef becomes efcdab
12:50:15 <tusho> (as an IO object)
12:50:15 <AnMaster> :P
12:50:23 <tusho> 'chars' just creates a "view" object on stdin
12:50:25 <tusho> which has the same FD
12:50:30 <tusho> but as a list, is of chars
12:50:31 <tusho> instead of lines
12:50:36 <AnMaster> heh ok
12:50:45 <tusho> and that pair thing would require a bit of work
12:50:48 <tusho> I'll have to think about it
12:50:58 <AnMaster> tusho, yes, don't make up another method or view for it
12:51:20 <tusho> i won't, but it occurs to me that 'grouping' a certain number of elements in an array into sub-arrays is a really common operation
12:51:29 <tusho> i've seen it implemented as an extension to Array on ruby before
12:51:29 <tusho> so
12:51:37 <tusho> stdin chars 2 group [.] each
12:51:40 <tusho> err
12:51:42 <AnMaster> tusho, sure, but what about increasing size of groups?
12:51:42 <tusho> stdin chars 2 group reverse [.] each
12:51:49 <tusho> AnMaster: stdin chars 5 group reverse [.] each
12:52:15 <AnMaster> tusho, the groups should increase while the program runs, according to the fibbonaci sequence
12:52:27 <tusho> then you'll have to write your own group replacement
12:52:32 <tusho> and I haven't decided on an elegant implementation for group yet
12:52:33 <tusho> :P
12:52:34 <AnMaster> tusho, example :P
12:52:46 <tusho> once I figure out an elegant way of implementing group
12:52:52 <AnMaster> tusho, I assume it is turing complete so you can do it I hope?
12:52:56 <tusho> yes
12:52:57 <tusho> of course
12:53:00 <AnMaster> tusho, without any extensions
12:53:05 <tusho> of course...
12:53:10 <AnMaster> tusho, where would these stuff be implemented?
12:53:16 <tusho> standard library
12:53:26 <AnMaster> tusho, when will you write implementation?
12:53:30 <tusho> when i want to
12:53:34 <AnMaster> kk
12:57:09 <tusho> AnMaster: any other programs you'd like me to write? :P
12:57:29 <AnMaster> tusho, A ray tracer that renders to png?
12:57:36 <tusho> :D how about no
12:57:40 <AnMaster> hehe ok
12:57:45 <tusho> though with enough stdlib it could be possible
12:57:46 <tusho> maybe :P
12:57:53 <deveah> cya
12:57:54 -!- deveah has left (?).
12:58:22 <AnMaster> tusho, oh yes core.3d.raytrace function, with the core.image.png view?
12:58:28 <AnMaster> or whatever you call them
12:58:32 <tusho> heh shut up you
12:58:32 <tusho> :)
12:58:45 <tusho> understanding how 'stdin chars' works isn't that hard
12:58:50 <AnMaster> tusho, indeed
12:58:56 <AnMaster> I was just making fun of you
12:58:57 <tusho> chars takes an IO object and makes its list methods work on characters instead of lines
12:58:58 <tusho> :P
12:59:30 <AnMaster> tusho, but no, can't think of any such programs now
12:59:37 <AnMaster> I'm sure I will come up with other ones later
13:00:12 <tusho> hmm
13:00:16 <tusho> there should be a recursive patent
13:00:21 <AnMaster> tusho, eh?
13:00:24 <tusho> METHOD FOR PATENTING THIS METHOD
13:00:31 <AnMaster> oh god
13:00:37 <AnMaster> XD
13:00:39 <tusho> it'd cause its own prior art!
13:00:51 <AnMaster> haha
13:18:33 <tusho> hmm
13:18:35 <tusho> UL[ *(online_users.map {|u| LI[A(:href => "/users/#{u.id}")[u.name]]} ]
13:18:44 <tusho> nifty little dom creation mini-lang
13:18:48 <tusho> (in ruby)
13:19:00 <tusho> TAGNAME[ child, child... ]
13:19:09 <tusho> TAGNAME(:attr => val, ...)[child, child...]
13:19:28 <tusho> hmm needs a ) before the ]
13:19:29 <tusho> in my example
13:19:33 <tusho> in fact
13:19:35 <tusho> UL[ *online_users.map {|u| LI[A(:href => "/users/#{u.id}")[u.name]]} ]
13:19:59 <tusho> the map is quite elegant, really - you're mapping the data directly on to the output html tree
13:20:09 <tusho> which is essentially what web apps are
13:36:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, your last ccbi segfaults for me
13:36:07 <AnMaster> on mycology
13:36:10 <AnMaster> GOOD: closed socket with K
13:36:10 <AnMaster> Segmentation fault
13:36:14 <AnMaster> when running with trace
13:36:22 <AnMaster> no debug info so I can't provide a traceback
13:36:26 <Deewiant> meh, I should test on linux
13:36:28 <Deewiant> I can guess the cause
13:36:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, happens without -t too
13:36:35 <Deewiant> I'll see about it when I get home
13:37:25 <AnMaster> (debug prompt) c
13:37:26 <AnMaster> Enter cell value to break on: t
13:37:27 <AnMaster> wtf?
13:38:09 <Deewiant> ?
13:38:20 <AnMaster> it fails
13:38:21 <Deewiant> t isn't a value, for starters, it has to be an integer
13:38:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you should mention that
13:38:45 <Deewiant> why do you think it says "value"
13:38:45 <Deewiant> :-P
13:38:52 <AnMaster> 't' is a value
13:38:57 <AnMaster> so I could enter 't' then?
13:39:01 <AnMaster> or (int)'t'?
13:39:15 <Deewiant> 't' is a value only in C-family languages
13:39:24 <AnMaster> true
13:39:37 <Deewiant> type error, got: Char, expected: Int
13:39:37 <Deewiant> sorry
13:40:20 <Deewiant> gone ->
13:41:33 <AnMaster> (gdb) brkinst 't'
13:41:34 <AnMaster> Breakpoint 1 at 0x40ce83: file /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/interpreter.c, line 106.
13:42:19 <AnMaster> actually an issue
13:42:26 <AnMaster> need to check if it is in string mode too
13:43:46 <AnMaster> define brkinst
13:43:46 <AnMaster> break ExecuteInstruction if (opcode == $arg0 && ip->mode != 0x1)
13:43:46 <AnMaster> end
13:43:48 <AnMaster> :)
13:44:38 <tusho> AnMaster: that is almost, almost ruby
14:00:18 <AnMaster> tusho, what?
14:00:22 <AnMaster> the gdb macro?
14:00:32 <AnMaster> tusho, it is just a gdb macro for gods sake
14:03:09 <tusho> I have a line of CSS that is 217015 characters long. Quiz: What does it do?
14:05:05 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:06:54 <AnMaster> tusho, I can't guess
14:06:58 <AnMaster> list all fonts?
14:07:09 <tusho> AnMaster: It starts with background: url("data:image/png,
14:07:10 <tusho> :)
14:07:19 <AnMaster> oh I see
14:07:26 <tusho> *evil grin*
14:07:30 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't like that
14:07:36 <AnMaster> what is wrong with the normal way?
14:07:43 <tusho> AnMaster: this way is funny
14:07:44 <tusho> :D
14:07:52 <AnMaster> tusho, this way disabling images won't save any bw
14:07:59 <AnMaster> bad on mobile connections
14:08:09 <tusho> whatevs :D
14:08:24 <tusho> tons of webpages are over 200kb
14:08:27 <tusho> this one just happens to be really short
14:08:28 <tusho> :D
14:08:49 <tusho> AnMaster: its just one page
14:08:51 <tusho> the homepage
14:09:10 <AnMaster> blergh
14:09:31 <tusho> AnMaster: if I get complaints I'll change it
14:09:59 <tusho> also it guarantees to break IE
14:10:05 <tusho> well
14:10:07 <tusho> apart from v8
14:10:09 <AnMaster> Tick: 75466 --- Index/IPs: 1/2 --- ID: 1 --- Stacks: 1 --- Mode:
14:10:09 <AnMaster> 1: tick = 75073
14:10:11 <AnMaster> blergh
14:10:14 <tusho> and old versions of opera too
14:10:24 <AnMaster> well I guess a binary search on the tick id is the way to go now
14:10:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is there any way to make the CCBI debugger break on a specific tick?
14:12:17 <tusho> funge extension idea
14:12:18 <tusho> GOOG
14:12:21 <tusho> it lets you search fungespace
14:12:29 <AnMaster> tusho, details?
14:12:31 <tusho> e.g. if you had "test", you could pass "test" to GOOG and it'd give you the co-ords
14:12:35 <tusho> and stuff like that
14:12:42 <tusho> (list of all co-ords its at)
14:12:43 <AnMaster> GOOGle?
14:12:46 <tusho> yep
14:12:46 <tusho> :P
14:12:59 <tusho> google's stock symbol
14:13:00 <AnMaster> tusho, well you need to write up proper specs
14:13:32 <AnMaster> tusho, wtf is a stock symbol
14:13:35 <AnMaster> I always wondered
14:13:51 <tusho> what they
14:13:55 <tusho> 're listed as on the stock exchange
14:13:59 <tusho> google's is GOOG, sun's is JAVA
14:14:00 <tusho> etc
14:14:05 <tusho> ms=MSFT
14:14:08 <tusho> YHOO
14:14:21 <AnMaster> why
14:14:32 <AnMaster> why not just use google or sun or microsoft or whatever
14:16:44 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:22:58 <tusho> AnMaster: it's ancient
14:23:10 <AnMaster> tusho, yes and why?
14:23:20 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticker_symbol
14:28:18 <pikhq> Because the finance world is run by old crufty COBOL code.
14:28:34 -!- ErkiDerLoony has left (?).
14:28:36 <tusho> It amuses me the symbols some use.
14:28:44 <tusho> It's like domains, but there's more available.
14:28:54 <tusho> And you can't use more than 4 letters.
14:29:06 <tusho> {    *
14:29:06 <tusho> Formerly, a glance at a U.S. stock symbol and its appended codes would allow an investor to determine where a stock trades; however in July 2007, the SEC approved a plan to allow companies moving from the New York Stock Exchange to the Nasdaq to retain their three letter symbols. When first implemented, the change did not apply to companies with one or two letter symbols,[2] but subsequently any stock was able to move from the NYSE to the Nasdaq without chan
14:29:09 <pikhq> It amuses me to look at SCOXQ's stock prices.
14:29:14 <tusho> OUR PRECIOUS ONE-TO-THREE-LETTER SYMBOLS
14:30:15 <pikhq> Sorry; that's SCOXQ.PK
14:31:35 <tusho> heh
14:31:40 <tusho> fucking sco
14:31:54 <AnMaster> .PK?
14:32:01 <tusho> AnMaster: {.PK - A Pink Sheet, indicating over-the-counter}
14:32:08 <AnMaster> k
14:32:18 <pikhq> And {Q - in bankruptcy}. ;)
14:32:38 <tusho> :D
14:32:49 <pikhq> They filed chapter 11 a year ago...
14:33:02 <pikhq> I'm surprised the bankruptcy court hasn't tried to push that into chapter 7.
14:33:06 <tusho> SCO must be run by some real fucked up people if they think all of this is still a good idea.
14:38:39 <AnMaster> chapter 7?
14:39:11 <tusho> AnMaster: please, before demonstrating abject ignorance about the topic we're discussing, google it
14:50:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I checked the tick count difference in ccbi at the beginning and ending of "a  b", and I also checked the same difference in cfunge, result: same difference (5)
14:50:07 <AnMaster> so why does mycology claim that is bad
14:51:34 <Deewiant> I. Do. Not. Know.
14:52:11 <tusho> Deewiant++
14:52:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is the tick count difference between start of t and end of thread testing always the same when it is all "good"?
14:52:28 <Deewiant> the IPs are probably desynced somehow: as to why, I do not know
14:52:31 <AnMaster> across interpreters
14:52:34 <oklopol> morning
14:52:38 <Deewiant> I do not know
14:52:44 * oklopol is back in da city
14:52:47 <Deewiant> they do not ask y for the tick count or anything like that
14:52:56 <AnMaster> the y doesn't have it
14:53:12 <Deewiant> that would be the reason then :-P
14:53:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I try a binary search to see when the difference between first t and some point to find where it first differs with tick/location
14:54:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so in the ccbi debugger, what is the command to break after a certain number or ticks?
14:54:12 <AnMaster> if there is any such command?
14:54:38 <Deewiant> have you tried looking at the help
14:55:34 <AnMaster> I have
14:55:43 <Deewiant> and did you see
14:55:43 <Deewiant> de(l)ay     --  Set the tick until which to delay
14:55:46 <AnMaster> ah
14:55:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is that absolute or relative current?
14:56:10 <Deewiant> absolute or otherwise it would be "Set the number of ticks to delay for"
14:56:20 <AnMaster> oh well
14:57:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, have you seen Riley's new fingerprints?
14:57:24 <Deewiant> possibly, which ones
14:58:00 <AnMaster> EMEM, LONG, EXEC, REXP, MSGQ, STCK, SMEM, SMPH, TRGR
14:58:04 <AnMaster> and maybe some more
14:58:10 <Deewiant> then nope
14:58:16 <AnMaster> http://www.elf-emulation.com/funge/rcfunge_manual.html
14:58:18 <AnMaster> some of those are mad
14:58:29 <AnMaster> SMPH seems to be interface to POSIX semaphores
14:58:34 <AnMaster> which is just plain mad IMO
14:59:47 <Deewiant> bunch of Unix-only stuff I see
15:00:11 <Deewiant> MSGQ/SMEM/SMPH
15:00:37 <tusho> urgh
15:00:44 <tusho> stupid firefox doesn't have colour adjustment profiles enabled by default
15:00:52 <Deewiant> and bunch of stuff that looks like it would be a pain to implement :-P
15:00:52 <tusho> so my photoshop-made image is brighter than the background it fades in to
15:00:55 <tusho> and I don't know how to fix that
15:00:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yep
15:01:05 <tusho> i can't seem to make photoshop save the image _as it appears now_
15:01:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you mean STCK and LONG and EXEC?
15:01:10 <tusho> without a colour profile
15:01:37 <AnMaster> tusho, try saving it to a file format lacking support for profiles?
15:01:48 <tusho> AnMaster: it'll just save it as the brighter version
15:01:56 <AnMaster> tusho, and then?
15:02:01 <tusho> i want the darker one
15:02:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: MACR and EXEC at least
15:02:05 <tusho> (the one photoshop & safari show)
15:02:08 <tusho> (with colour profiles)
15:02:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well MACR would be a pain yes
15:02:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, are you going to write test suites for them?
15:02:39 <Deewiant> my mini-funge is such a hack that I couldn't do MACR easily
15:02:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: only if I implement them
15:03:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I will probably implement LONG, and maybe EXEC
15:03:19 <Deewiant> STCK and SETS and EMEM should be easy
15:03:24 <AnMaster> SETS yes
15:03:26 <Deewiant> as well as LONG
15:03:31 <AnMaster> STCK would be a pain with my stack system
15:03:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, even FRTH is currently a pain
15:03:40 <Deewiant> still need to add 'D' to FILE...
15:03:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, D to file?
15:03:46 <AnMaster> wtf?
15:03:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: he added it
15:03:54 <AnMaster> have he extended it?
15:03:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that makes no sense
15:04:05 <Deewiant> makes sense as it seems like an obvious omission
15:04:08 <AnMaster> fingerprints are fixed when they are done
15:04:13 <tusho> no they're not
15:04:14 <tusho> who said that
15:04:15 <tusho> nobody
15:04:15 <tusho> exactly
15:04:16 <Deewiant> and since we're the only implementers I figured it's fine
15:04:19 <Deewiant> tusho: shaddup :-P
15:04:26 <tusho> Deewiant: >:E
15:04:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I told him to not go crazy with messing with earlier fingerprints and he said this was all he was thinking of changing so far
15:04:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh well, but that seems like it could cause issues
15:05:08 <Deewiant> and like said, I figure it belongs and since we're the only implementers it's OK
15:05:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you aren't
15:05:19 <AnMaster> I implement FILE
15:05:23 <AnMaster> you forgot that
15:05:32 <tusho> AnMaster: yours is just a hyper-optimized port of ccbi to c
15:05:33 <tusho> admit it
15:05:36 <Deewiant> we as in includes you
15:05:37 <AnMaster> tusho, it isn't
15:05:53 <Deewiant> as in, people in this channel who can easily be poked to change their code :-P
15:06:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, will you add a mycology test for it?
15:07:02 <Deewiant> yes
15:07:10 <Deewiant> and I'll use it to remove the mycotmp files
15:07:27 <Deewiant> so you finally don't have to remove them manually any more :-P
15:08:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: btw, http://www.rcfunge98.com/ works too
15:09:09 <Deewiant> and oh yeah, FING is probably doable as well
15:09:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, EMEM would be doable
15:09:36 <AnMaster> but I don't think I like it very much
15:09:39 <Deewiant> yeah, I think I said so already
15:09:45 <Deewiant> and yeah
15:09:50 <Deewiant> it's a bit silly
15:09:54 <tusho> hmm
15:09:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and well FING I could easily do
15:09:57 <Deewiant> you already have an infinite funge-space
15:09:58 <tusho> shouldn't it be rcfunge98.org
15:09:59 <tusho> :)
15:10:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oooh but it can't be used for posix shared memory can it? ;P
15:10:25 <AnMaster> also funge space is slower
15:10:27 <AnMaster> XD
15:10:36 <Deewiant> I'm not going to respond to either of those >_<
15:10:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it was a parody
15:10:52 <AnMaster> I think those are silly reasons
15:11:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would the D be equal to unlink()
15:11:55 <Deewiant> ask Mike, not me
15:12:00 <Deewiant> Dewi: (0gnirts -- )Delete specified file
15:12:03 <Deewiant> bah
15:12:04 <Deewiant> bloody tabs
15:12:06 <AnMaster>        remove() deletes a name from the file system.  It calls unlink(2) for files, and rmdir(2) for directories.
15:12:08 <Deewiant> sorry about that, Dewi
15:12:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hehe
15:12:32 <Deewiant> but yeah, I guess it would be
15:12:34 <tusho> Dewi
15:12:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I assume you use some irc client that is console based
15:12:40 <Deewiant> certainly doesn't delete directories
15:12:48 <AnMaster> as GUI ones would see pasted tab differently
15:13:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then unlink()
15:13:07 <Deewiant> not if they're not implemented to see the difference :-P
15:13:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, of course it doesn't delete the file, it unlinks the file, which may still leave the file around if there are other hardlinks
15:13:53 <tusho> Deewiant: yea they would
15:14:03 <tusho> tab = {KEYPRESS,\t}
15:14:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and of course one can't truly delete the file
15:14:10 <tusho> paste tab = {ADDCHAR,inputbox,\t}
15:14:23 <Deewiant> tusho: yes, but like said, if they're implemented to treat those the same way...
15:14:30 <Deewiant> which would be stupid, of course
15:14:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed not overwrite
15:14:32 <tusho> they wouldn't, though
15:14:36 <Deewiant> but they could be
15:14:36 <tusho> they'd have to explicitly duplicate the behaviour
15:14:48 <tusho> and well technically you could do just about anything
15:14:55 <tusho> but "⌘ undecided.domain
15:14:55 <tusho> Introductions are a lot of fun, some crap, crapidoodle... mmm, crapidoodle. Introductions are a lot of fun, some crap, crapidoodle... mmm, crapidoodle. Introductions are a lot of fun, some crap, crapidoodle... mmm, crapidoodle. Introductions are a lot of fun, some crap, crapidoodle... mmm, crapidoodle. Introductions are a lot of fun, some crap, crapidoodle... mmm, crapidoodle.
15:14:55 <tusho> unnamed wiki
15:14:55 <tusho> unnamed wiki
15:14:57 <tusho> unnamed wiki
15:14:59 <tusho> unnamed wiki
15:15:01 <tusho> I guess here is when I link to some crap about me and maybe info about this site. I don't know, this is placeholder. Blah blah blah de blah blah."
15:15:04 <tusho> errr
15:15:06 <tusho> stupid pasting
15:15:11 <AnMaster> tusho, what the heck?
15:15:15 <Deewiant> tusho: more likely they'd do something like move KEYPRESSes and ADDCHARs to a common handler
15:15:21 <Deewiant> and nice paste, btw :-P
15:15:21 <tusho> AnMaster: plz be to the reading: [[stupid pasting]]
15:15:36 -!- Deewiant has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | <bsmntbombdood> lol tornado brb | ☃ | mmm, crapidoodle..
15:15:37 <tusho> Deewiant: that would be monumentally ridiculous
15:15:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant++
15:16:01 <Deewiant> tusho: not monumentally, but somewhat, yes. :-)
15:17:36 <AnMaster> versioned fingerprints
15:17:38 <AnMaster> that could be nice
15:17:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: btw, that segfault was a regression introduced in the last version and was a one-liner fix :-)
15:18:01 <AnMaster> have <uri> refer to the last and <uri>-1.2.3 and such
15:18:06 <tusho> Deewiant: i take it you don't like test internal suites :P
15:18:07 <AnMaster> what do you think?
15:18:10 <tusho> AnMaster: no
15:18:13 <tusho> just use a seperate uri
15:18:18 <tusho> http://foo.org/trds/1.0
15:18:19 <tusho> http://foo.org/trds/1.1
15:18:19 <tusho> etc
15:18:23 <AnMaster> tusho, it would be up to the fingerprint writer of course
15:18:36 <tusho> but you don't have to do anything special
15:18:39 <AnMaster> he could say that http://foo.org/trds would point to the last? or couldn't he?
15:19:00 <tusho> AnMaster: well, that'd just be making the http://foo.org/trds fingerprint load http://foo.org/trds/version
15:19:09 <AnMaster> tusho, indeed
15:19:11 <Deewiant> tusho: compiling this on linux is just enough of a pain due to my lack of my own linux computer that I usually can't be bothered to test it on linux
15:19:18 <tusho> ah it was a linux bug
15:19:34 <AnMaster> tusho, rather a bug in CCBI's code for linux I assume
15:19:37 <Deewiant> well, the bug affects everything
15:19:45 <Deewiant> the segfault only happened on linux though :-P
15:19:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what was the issue?
15:20:06 <tusho> yes
15:20:15 <Deewiant> a 'delete' was no longer valid after a change I made in 1.0.11
15:20:20 <Deewiant> so I just removed it
15:20:21 <AnMaster> ah
15:20:45 <AnMaster> which caused a memory corruption before you removed it?
15:21:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, suggestion: use tools like valgrind :D
15:21:18 <tusho> valgrind doesn't work on d
15:21:24 <Deewiant> what I think is that on windows, the return value of a tango call is allocated by 'new', but on linux it isn't
15:21:37 <Deewiant> or, on windows, deleting something random is simply ignored
15:22:04 <Deewiant> valgrind can be made to work on D, at least
15:22:17 <Deewiant> it's been done
15:22:32 <Deewiant> but it wouldn't really help
15:22:40 <AnMaster> valgrind is a very useful tool
15:22:41 <Deewiant> since all DMD-generated executables fail valgrind in some places
15:22:51 <tusho> cue "DMD IS EVIL REWRITE IT"
15:23:04 <Deewiant> and it's quite possible that the GC does tricks valgrind doesn't like
15:23:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed, or the reverse
15:23:39 <Deewiant> and in any case, changing my code can not possibly fix valgrind errors
15:23:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for example when I compile cfunge with boehm-gc and then run it under valgrind, cfunge will segfault
15:23:51 <AnMaster> that doesn't happen otherwise
15:23:51 <Deewiant> since it's all through the GC which comes from the stdlib
15:24:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can't you deselect GC?
15:24:25 <Deewiant> no
15:24:32 <AnMaster> that's odd
15:24:34 <Deewiant> I could use tango without a GC, sure
15:24:38 <Deewiant> but that would be monumentally stupid
15:24:46 <AnMaster> hah true
15:24:47 <tusho> CCmemleakBI
15:24:49 <Deewiant> because I don't delete even close to all of what I allocate
15:26:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: new CCBI's up
15:26:44 <AnMaster> cfunge does in debug build, but it doesn't free everything allocated at startup in release build
15:26:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nice
15:27:03 <Deewiant> yes, because freeing memory is sooo slow :-P
15:27:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nah, but it does slow down a bit indeed. but that isn't the reason
15:27:32 <tusho> Deewiant: it takes a positive number of miliseconds!
15:27:33 <AnMaster> freeing like 20 000 separate mallocs() are slow
15:27:47 <Deewiant> yeah, at least 20 milliseconds
15:27:55 <AnMaster> *sigh*
15:28:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway my FILE now does D
15:28:05 <tusho> *sigh* he just doesn't get me and my speed...
15:28:10 <tusho> why does nobody understand me?
15:28:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tell me when mycology does it too
15:29:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway EMEM will be painful, you need to index the entries if you will ever target 64-bit platforms
15:29:16 <AnMaster> and have a 32-bit funge
15:30:06 <Deewiant> no different from REFC
15:30:24 <AnMaster> well except you can free stuff too
15:30:40 <Deewiant> I meant the indexing
15:30:47 <AnMaster> yeah
15:31:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway another issue, LONG for 64-bit funges won't be very fun
15:31:21 <AnMaster> __int_128 and such aren't portable
15:31:28 <AnMaster> so I will have to do it on my own
15:31:46 <Deewiant> or you can just be non-portable
15:32:01 <Deewiant> and say LONG is only available for compilers which implement 128-bit integers
15:32:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I am not now, I plan to support non-GCC in the future too
15:32:26 -!- tusho has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | mmm, crapidoodle. | ☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃�.
15:32:30 <AnMaster> as long as it is C99 and proper POSIX I can run it
15:32:36 <AnMaster> I can use it*
15:32:48 <AnMaster> + the mmap extension
15:33:03 <AnMaster> which all POSIX I know of implement anyway
15:33:17 <AnMaster> (and I really don't give a fuck about cygwin)
15:34:00 <tusho> AnMaster: You realise that you care about things that 0.0000000000000000000000000000001% of people use, but not things that ~90% of people use.
15:34:17 <AnMaster> tusho, more than 0.0000000000000000000000000000001% use linux
15:34:26 <AnMaster> and in the eso lang community, much more
15:34:29 <Deewiant> and more than that use windows
15:34:35 <tusho> AnMaster: I am talking about ObscuroUnix2000.
15:34:37 <tusho> It doesn't run gcc.
15:34:45 <tusho> It only supports perfect POSIX and has a C99 compiler.
15:34:54 <tusho> And you are being a fine, upstanding citizen and supporting them! Good on you.
15:34:56 <AnMaster> tusho, Solaris for example?
15:35:00 <tusho> However, you're annoying 90-fucking-%
15:35:04 <tusho> *ignoring
15:35:11 <tusho> It's ridiculous.
15:35:37 <AnMaster> tusho, POSIX is an international standard, so is C99
15:35:49 <tusho> Shut the hell up about your goddamn international standards.
15:35:54 <tusho> SOME OBSCURE SYSTEM - 0%
15:35:56 <tusho> WINDOWS - 90%
15:36:00 <tusho> You care more about the former
15:36:02 <tusho> and it is utterly stupid
15:36:25 <AnMaster> "The family of POSIX standards is formally designated as IEEE 1003 and the international standard name is ISO/IEC 9945. The standards emerged from a project that began near 1985. Formerly known as IEEE-IX, the term POSIX was suggested by Richard Stallman in response to an IEEE request for a memorable name.[2]"
15:36:36 <AnMaster> tusho, also I suppose it will work on OS X
15:36:42 <AnMaster> but I don't have any OS X to try on
15:36:45 <tusho> OS X, lovely. 4%.
15:36:45 <AnMaster> it does work on FreeBSD
15:36:50 <AnMaster> on Linux
15:36:53 <AnMaster> on OpenBSD
15:36:56 <tusho> THE FACT REMAINS: You are ignoring 90% and concentrating on 0% instead.
15:36:58 <AnMaster> on NetBSD
15:37:01 <tusho> This is a waste of time and effort.
15:37:05 <AnMaster> which are the only systems I have
15:37:15 <navaburo> 100-90=10
15:37:18 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't have windows, so how could I test it?
15:37:25 <AnMaster> navaburo, indeed
15:37:28 <tusho> navaburo: SomeObscureUnix is not 10%.
15:37:32 <tusho> The 10% is heavily fragmented.
15:37:38 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway I care about Linux and such
15:37:43 <AnMaster> which is much more
15:37:51 <navaburo> posix is what binds them togeather
15:37:52 <tusho> Linux is less than OS X.
15:37:54 <tusho> 1% or so.
15:37:55 <AnMaster> tusho, at least i don't make it RiscOS or whatever only!
15:37:56 <AnMaster> ;P
15:38:04 <AnMaster> which is what !Befunge almost did
15:38:12 <AnMaster> navaburo, indeed!
15:38:21 <AnMaster> navaburo, so this means all those 10%
15:38:21 <Deewiant> except that !Befunge runs on windows fairly fine
15:38:22 <tusho> You should still concentrate on Windows instead of a mythical system that you don't even have to test on.
15:38:35 <AnMaster> cfunge - Bringing Befunge-98 to the minority!
15:38:38 * AnMaster ducks
15:38:46 <tusho> AnMaster: ccbi already works on linux, pop
15:38:49 <tusho> and I imagine OS X too
15:38:57 <AnMaster> tusho, well not 64-bit linux
15:38:59 <AnMaster> anyway
15:39:16 <AnMaster> tusho, I DON'T HAVE WINDOWS SO HOW THE FUCK COULD I TEST ON IT!?
15:39:21 <AnMaster> I don't plan to use warez
15:39:24 <AnMaster> if that is what you suggest
15:39:28 <Deewiant> wine
15:39:36 <tusho> and possibly make Deewiant even more your slave
15:39:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, gcc cross compile to wine?
15:39:41 <tusho> i hear he has a windows installation.
15:39:42 <AnMaster> tusho, eh what?
15:39:42 <tusho> AnMaster: yes
15:39:59 <Deewiant> you do realize that the whole goal of wine is that you can test on it and then your stuff will run on windows
15:40:04 <navaburo> Deewiant, a few years ago people would have laughed at that. Amazing how wine has come along isnt it?
15:40:11 <AnMaster> navaburo, indeed
15:40:16 <Deewiant> and if GCC doesn't cross compile to wine, you can get VC or whatever.
15:40:17 <tusho> So yes.
15:40:21 <tusho> it does Deewiant
15:40:23 <tusho> you just use mingw
15:40:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nop, because VC doesn't do C99
15:40:38 <Deewiant> navaburo: oh? I would have said that even a few years ago. But then, I've never used wine. :-)
15:40:39 <tusho> use mingw
15:40:43 <tusho> it's gcc
15:40:48 <tusho> and you can compile mingw on linux
15:40:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: MinGW, DMC, others...
15:40:55 * navaburo finds it hilarious that there is a standards debate going on in #esoteric
15:40:55 <AnMaster> tusho, and yes, quite a few parts work under mingw
15:40:56 <tusho> and use it to compile for windows
15:40:58 <AnMaster> I tested some time ago
15:40:59 <Deewiant> there is more than one C compiler for windows
15:41:00 <tusho> and then run it under wine
15:41:03 <tusho> AnMaster: THAT is how you test on windows.
15:41:08 <AnMaster> when I did have access to windows
15:41:10 <AnMaster> for a limited time
15:41:16 <tusho> you do have access to windows
15:41:20 <tusho> we just told you exactly how
15:41:21 <AnMaster> tusho, no longer
15:41:25 <AnMaster> I had back then
15:41:29 <AnMaster> I don't have any longer
15:41:30 <tusho> mingw cross compiler + wine
15:41:30 <Deewiant> navaburo: oh, tusho and AnMaster do stuff like this all the time. :-)
15:41:32 <AnMaster> it wasn't my computer
15:41:37 <AnMaster> tusho, not wine
15:41:41 <tusho> AnMaster: and why not
15:41:45 <tusho> this is its whole purpose
15:41:50 <AnMaster> I had temp access to a computer with win xp, mingw and msys
15:41:52 <AnMaster> + cmake
15:41:55 <tusho> i know
15:41:57 <tusho> but you still have windows
15:41:59 <tusho> in the form of mingw+wine
15:42:05 <AnMaster> well yes, possibly
15:42:12 <tusho> "possibly"
15:42:18 <AnMaster> but I can't be arsed to set it up
15:42:18 <tusho> aka "no, because."
15:42:18 <AnMaster> also
15:42:27 <AnMaster> give windows environ and mmap()
15:42:28 <tusho> oh, i like that one
15:42:29 <AnMaster> then sure
15:42:31 <AnMaster> and fork()
15:42:40 <tusho> "EXCUSE!" "Trivial solution to the excuse." ":( CBA"
15:43:13 <AnMaster> tusho, also I hate win32api
15:43:18 <AnMaster> no way I will ever use that in cfunge
15:43:20 <tusho> you'd hardly need to use it
15:43:22 <Deewiant> there are these things called libraries
15:43:27 <tusho> Deewiant++ also
15:43:27 <Deewiant> which do this thing called abstraction
15:43:32 <AnMaster> tusho, how do you get environment variables then?
15:43:35 <Deewiant> which implies this thing called portability
15:43:40 <tusho> AnMaster: it has getenv, does it now?
15:43:41 <tusho> *not
15:43:45 <tusho> if not, what Deewiant said
15:44:27 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe, I just used extern char ** environ;
15:44:32 <Deewiant> tusho: doesn't suffice even if it does since it doesn't have putenv (or setenv, I can't remember which is only POSIX)
15:44:36 <tusho> AnMaster: lol.
15:44:55 <AnMaster> tusho, valid POSIX, but I guess I will have to mess up the code and use a more complex solution
15:44:55 <tusho> Deewiant: does AnMaster do that?
15:45:11 <Deewiant> do what?
15:45:12 <AnMaster> tusho, I would if I implement EVAR at some time
15:45:17 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, you can't just abide to standards and expect it to magically work on everything
15:45:25 <tusho> strange I know
15:45:26 <AnMaster> http://www.elf-emulation.com/funge/rcfunge_manual.html#EVAR
15:45:26 <Deewiant> ah, he doesn't implement EVAR
15:45:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not yet
15:45:32 <AnMaster> it is planned
15:45:37 <tusho> AnMaster: so it's one #ifdef WINDOWS
15:45:44 <tusho> and like 3 lines of gnarly windows api call
15:45:45 <AnMaster> #ifdef __WIN32__
15:45:47 <AnMaster> static const char * environ[] = {
15:45:47 <AnMaster> "SYSTEM=windows crap",
15:45:47 <AnMaster> "SUPPORTS=not environ at least, get a sane system if you want this to work.",
15:45:47 <AnMaster> "REALLY=we mean it, cfunge on windows is NOT SUPPORTED."
15:45:47 <AnMaster> };
15:45:51 <AnMaster> #else
15:45:51 <AnMaster> #  ifndef _GNU_SOURCE
15:45:52 <AnMaster> extern char **environ;
15:45:54 <AnMaster> #  endif
15:45:56 <AnMaster> #endif
15:45:58 <AnMaster> XD
15:45:59 <tusho> nice flood
15:46:04 <AnMaster> tusho, thanks
15:46:09 <AnMaster> does it look good on me?
15:46:10 <AnMaster> ;P
15:46:11 <tusho> you could just do
15:46:15 <tusho> #ifdef __WIN32__
15:46:17 <tusho> #error HAHAHAHAHHAHA
15:46:18 <tusho> #endif
15:46:59 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway there are couple of fingerprints that need fork() and such, and really, I got no clue how to set up pipes and such to talk to perl on windows...
15:47:13 <AnMaster> win32 api is not something I intend to learn
15:47:19 <tusho> use a goddamn library
15:47:26 <tusho> besides, it's not learning the win32 api
15:47:31 <tusho> it's learning like THREE FUNCTIONS
15:47:44 <AnMaster> tusho, point me to such a library
15:48:03 * AnMaster waits
15:48:08 <tusho> i don't know
15:48:10 <tusho> google for it
15:48:13 <AnMaster> *shrug*
15:48:18 <tusho> oh, of course
15:48:19 <tusho> that'd be work
15:48:26 <tusho> it might even take 60 seconds
15:48:37 * AnMaster goes back debugging threading issue
15:49:46 * navaburo has been playing with finite brainfuck, quite joyfully
15:49:53 -!- dogface_ has joined.
15:50:16 <AnMaster> navaburo, oh what is that?
15:50:40 <navaburo> brainfuck with a very small memory
15:50:50 <tusho> navaburo: are you new here? :)
15:50:55 <AnMaster> navaburo, ah, so a limited interpreter basically?
15:51:04 <AnMaster> navaburo, not Turing complete
15:51:10 <navaburo> right
15:51:13 <AnMaster> well no implementation is of course
15:51:26 <dogface_> I should come up with a complete set of rewrite rules for BF.
15:51:26 <navaburo> right, so why make it seem Turing-complete?
15:51:40 <navaburo> why not just cut to the chase and use 3 cells of memory?
15:51:48 <tusho> navaburo: 'cause then you can't do a mandelbrot
15:51:52 <tusho> or game of life
15:51:53 <tusho> :)
15:52:10 <tusho> navaburo: Of course, if they're bignums, then you can just use 2.
15:52:15 <navaburo> tusho, you can do anything supposing your cells can hold sufficiently large numbers
15:52:16 <tusho> And it's memory-bound once more.
15:52:22 <tusho> navaburo: that's still making it seem TC
15:52:23 <navaburo> tusho, mmm, i think you need 3 cells
15:52:26 <dogface_> No real-world implementation of anything is Turing-complete. Still, computer programmers love pretending things are.
15:52:31 <tusho> you can't have infinitely-sized numbers, navaburo
15:52:35 <tusho> it's the same problem as infinite memory cells
15:52:48 <navaburo> just sufficiently large for your application
15:52:55 <oklopol> dogface_: what do you mean?
15:53:01 <tusho> navaburo: then why not just have as many cells as you need for your app
15:53:10 <oklopol> find the normal form for a bf program? :)
15:53:11 <navaburo> because it is more esoteric this way
15:53:51 <tusho> navaburo: not really
15:53:55 <tusho> it's just more difficult
15:54:48 <navaburo> i guess it is a matter of taste. but more importantly, i was concerned with the minimum space complexity for an algorithm in finite bf, and i think it's 3.
15:54:52 <dogface_> oklopol: what do I mean by BF rewrite rules?
15:54:57 <navaburo> er, i ment maximum
15:55:09 <navaburo> oklopol, oh do tell
15:55:50 <tusho> its not navaburo
15:55:58 <tusho> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine
15:56:01 <dogface_> A couple Thue-style rules to transform any BF program into any other with the same I/O behavior, considering halting to be a form of output.
15:56:16 <AnMaster> does anyone know where I could find info on how you do arithmetics on a number larger than the size the compiler supports?
15:56:21 <AnMaster> say 128 bit integers
15:56:22 <AnMaster> or whatever
15:56:35 <tusho> AnMaster: look up on how cpus do addition
15:56:40 <tusho> then just do that on a struct with multiple ints
15:56:44 <dogface_> Bignum libraries?
15:56:50 <tusho> dogface_: bounded
15:57:00 <tusho> navaburo: 2-cell BF with bignums = TC
15:57:17 <dogface_> Did AnMaster say e wanted bounded?
15:57:24 <tusho> dogface_: I know what he's doing it for.
15:57:25 <AnMaster> dogface_, I need exactly twice the size of int32_t or int64_t depending on implementation
15:57:27 <tusho> (Befunge interp.)
15:57:32 <AnMaster> dogface_, and tusho knows what I want it for
15:57:39 <AnMaster> "long integers are 2 cell integers, if the interpreter's cell size is 32, then long integers are 64-bits."
15:57:40 <oklopol> dogface_: and by complete you mean that two programs identical in behavior would become the same resulting program, which would be in its normal form?
15:57:45 <AnMaster> well that is easy, but I got 64-bit cells
15:57:51 <AnMaster> so I need 128-bit integers
15:57:57 <AnMaster> which I need to emulate somehow
15:58:09 <AnMaster> dogface_, also you are a nomic player I assume?
15:58:17 <navaburo> tusho, thanks
15:58:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what's "long long" with 64-bit
15:58:23 <dogface_> AnMaster: yep. :-)
15:58:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is 64-bit sitll
15:58:30 <AnMaster> still*
15:58:33 <dogface_> Old Spivak pronouns are ours!
15:58:36 <Deewiant> meh, that kinda sucks
15:58:38 <tusho> dogface_: you should join ##nomic
15:58:38 <tusho> :D
15:58:52 <AnMaster> dogface_, I stoppped playing nomics some time ago
15:58:53 <AnMaster> anyway
15:59:00 <oklopol> dogface_: you should answer me!
15:59:04 <dogface_> oklopol: just a moment.
15:59:09 <tusho> (AnMaster's only nomic was ircnomic, which I founded with ais523 and ihope)
15:59:11 <AnMaster> dogface_, I need to figure out how do do maths on 128-bit signed integers
15:59:15 <tusho> (In april.)
15:59:22 <AnMaster> tusho, yes indeed
15:59:23 <oklopol> AnMaster: what's hard about that?
15:59:35 <AnMaster> oklopol, I got no clue how to do it
15:59:37 <dogface_> oklopol: well, they'd be nondeterministic and all, so they wouldn't be able to produce a normal form on ordinary computers, of course.
15:59:48 <oklopol> AnMaster: do you know how to calculate 253*5642
15:59:49 <oklopol> ?
15:59:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, by hand on paper sure
16:00:08 <AnMaster> or using C routines
16:00:23 <oklopol> AnMaster: do that on-paper version, and generalize base, then?
16:00:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, hrrm, seems suboptimal, I found some routines in freebsd kernel for doing it
16:00:53 <AnMaster> maybe I can adapt (read: steal) those
16:01:05 <AnMaster> BSD license :)
16:01:18 <dogface_> Good luck being faster than the paper methods without using fast Fourier transforms.
16:01:34 <AnMaster> eh?
16:01:35 <dogface_> And with only two integers, I highly doubt the FFTs will get you anywhere.
16:01:48 <oklopol> dogface_: not faster asymptotically, just faster
16:02:34 <AnMaster> dogface_, I just want to do +-*/%, bitshift and conversion from/to ascii
16:02:44 <AnMaster> http://www.elf-emulation.com/funge/rcfunge_manual.html#LONG
16:02:55 <oklopol> AnMaster: you can hardcode all carries
16:03:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, what sucks is knowning that x86 puts the carry if any in the carry flag in the rFLAGS register
16:03:26 <AnMaster> and there is no way to get at it from C ;P
16:03:46 <oklopol> :)
16:03:49 <dogface_> Hope that the compiler is smart.
16:03:54 <navaburo> tusho, does the proof of 2-cell BF with bignums = TC use Minsky machines?
16:04:00 <oklopol> it won't be that smart
16:04:01 <tusho> navaburo: yes
16:04:03 <tusho> it is a minsky machine
16:04:12 <tusho> it's pretty trivial
16:04:16 <AnMaster> dogface_, not that smart that it can figure it out from a struct of two integers
16:04:24 <dogface_> Mm.
16:04:50 <dogface_> A smarter compiler is needed, then. :-P
16:05:18 <oklopol> i'm gonna go buy something fun ->
16:07:44 <tusho> dogface_: You are ihope.
16:09:45 <AnMaster> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/sys/libkern/Attic/subdi3.c?rev=1.6;content-type=text%2Fplain
16:10:23 <AnMaster> that gives me the general idea of how to do it at least
16:10:45 <dogface_> tusho: I'm glad you noticed, because otherwise, you wouldn't have been able to notify me that you were going to start work on the proposal system for Normish. :-P
16:11:15 <dogface_> I do have a set of ideas I call "Not the Tallest of Orders". I may implement them.
16:11:52 <tusho> Shaddap dogface_, Normish will be like 5 years of thinking and then like 2 seconds of implementing enlightenment itself
16:11:52 <tusho> :P
16:13:11 <AnMaster> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/sys/libkern/quad.h?rev=1.19;content-type=text%2Fplain
16:15:37 <AnMaster> tusho, what is normish?
16:15:44 <tusho> AnMaster: a nomic
16:15:48 <tusho> played on a linux box
16:15:54 <AnMaster> tusho, how does it work?
16:15:59 <tusho> unicorn magic
16:16:02 <AnMaster> .......
16:16:23 <tusho> people submit proposals as scripts
16:16:25 <tusho> and vote on them
16:16:26 <tusho> if they're accepted
16:16:28 <tusho> they're run as root
16:16:33 <tusho> simple as. except the current proposal system sux0r
16:16:38 <tusho> and i'm going to write the successor
16:16:41 <tusho> very soon
16:16:47 <tusho> just been busy with other stuffs
16:17:14 <AnMaster> tusho, seems interesting
16:17:27 <AnMaster> tusho, and the goal is to get root powers?
16:17:31 <dogface_> tusho: as punishment for taking so ling, I've devised a very complicated new proposal and player system. :-P
16:17:37 <tusho> nomics don't have goals, AnMaster
16:17:38 <tusho> generally.
16:17:46 <tusho> dogface_: oh shush you, I've been really busy
16:17:46 <tusho> :(
16:17:53 <AnMaster> tusho, reaching a certain number of points?
16:18:01 <dogface_> The goal is to have fun. If you do bad things with root powers, you get... disliked.
16:18:02 <tusho> AnMaster: no purpose by default!
16:18:07 <AnMaster> true
16:18:16 <AnMaster> tusho, but this specific normish then?
16:18:27 <tusho> AnMaster: NO DEFINED PURPOSE
16:18:29 <tusho> IT'S ADDED BY PROPOSAL
16:18:30 <AnMaster> nice
16:18:31 <tusho> OR NOT ADDED AT ALL!
16:18:33 <tusho> jeez
16:18:34 <dogface_> :-)
16:18:36 <tusho> same with ircnomic
16:18:38 <tusho> same with agora
16:18:41 <tusho> heck agora has no goal
16:18:42 <AnMaster> tusho, so no such proposal have been made?
16:18:47 <tusho> AnMaster: it isn't up yet
16:18:53 <tusho> I mean, it is, but the proposal system sucks
16:18:53 <AnMaster> oh ok
16:18:58 <tusho> and as far as I know it doesn't have much activity
16:19:03 <tusho> since everyone's waiting for my proposal system
16:19:03 <tusho> :p
16:19:22 <dogface_> If it has any activity... well, I think it's had no activity for at least a week.
16:19:34 <dogface_> Sgeo, ais523 and Norgg would have to collaborate to make something happen.
16:19:43 <tusho> Or I could implement it
16:19:48 <tusho> And it'd magically gain all the activity :P
16:19:52 <tusho> (ok this injoke is silly :D)
16:20:00 <dogface_> AnMaster, help me (or tusho) with my ideas. :-P
16:20:05 <tusho> But srsly. I've almost finished stuff.
16:20:05 <dogface_> I should tell you what they are.
16:20:08 <tusho> Proposal system: soon.
16:20:09 <dogface_> Cool.
16:20:11 <tusho> And yes, but in ##nomic
16:20:49 <dogface_> AnMaster: to ##nomic with ye. :-)
16:20:49 <AnMaster> dogface_, nah
16:20:50 <AnMaster> no time
16:21:00 <dogface_> Okay.
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17:01:45 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.
17:22:09 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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17:36:19 <pikhq> To ###nomic with ye.
17:47:30 -!- lament has joined.
17:49:28 -!- Corun has joined.
18:03:31 <tusho> pikhq: ?
18:10:39 <bsmntbombdood> lol nerds
18:11:54 <oklopol> yeah lol em
18:12:36 <tusho> pikhq: Oh, you were talking about the double-hash.
18:12:38 <tusho> It's correct.
18:12:39 <tusho> Freenode policy.
18:12:51 <Deewiant> policy for what
18:12:52 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: kind of an ironic thing to say in here huh
18:12:59 <pikhq> I know.
18:13:03 <pikhq> Just joking. ;)
18:13:03 <tusho> Deewiant: channel names
18:13:14 <Deewiant> tusho: so what's the difference between # and ##
18:13:16 <tusho> since we don't own nomic, we have to have ##nomic (pronounced "about nomic")
18:13:23 <Deewiant> ah
18:13:25 <tusho> wordpress can have #wordpress beacuse it's official
18:13:28 <tusho> but it's ##windows
18:14:14 <lament> We do, on the other hand, own Esoteric.
18:14:17 -!- atrapado has joined.
18:15:26 <tusho> lament: of course
18:16:10 <bsmntbombdood> not that it matters
18:19:44 <oklopol> nothing matters
18:20:47 <tusho> apart from the fact that nothing matters
18:20:58 <tusho> (apart from the fact that nothing matters (apart from the fact that nothing matters (apart from the fact that nothing matters (apart from the fact that nothing matters (apart from the fact that nothing matters ...
18:22:40 <dogface_> El dato que nada importa.
18:33:37 <dogface_> Every nickname is a religion, you know. "Sgeo" says we should worship the Earth, "ihope" says we should worship Apple, "ais523" says we should worship 523.
18:34:06 <dogface_> :-P
18:34:06 <tusho> dogface_: And tusho?
18:34:27 <dogface_> "tusho" says that we cannot assume anything is true unless we've seen it with our own eyes.
18:34:30 <Sgeo> Actually, "Sgeo" says we should worship geometry or something. Apparently Sgeo stands for Sacred Geometry
18:34:43 <tusho> No, it stands for Sir Gay, Oh!
18:34:51 <dogface_> Oh, I thought the "geo" meant Earth.
18:35:12 <dogface_> Well, doesn't "geometry" literally mean "measuring the Earth" or something?
18:35:32 <Sgeo> http://www.charlesgilchrist.com/SGEO/index.html
18:36:14 <tusho> haha
18:36:19 <tusho> oh cranks
18:38:31 <dogface_> "oklopol"... hmm, that's a tricky one, as it's in some other language, I believe.
18:38:50 <tusho> dogface_: actually it's meaningless
18:38:51 <tusho> I believe
18:38:55 <dogface_> If my knowledge of Proto-Germanic is correct, that nick contains many indications that we should worship the government.
18:39:13 <tusho> seems a bit incorrect for oklopol
18:39:14 <tusho> :P
18:39:15 <dogface_> "dogface" advocates atheism.
18:39:20 <tusho> Cool.
18:39:23 <oklopol> i don't believe in governments
18:39:23 <dogface_> Well, what do you think "pol" means?
18:39:31 <oklopol> city
18:39:35 <tusho> oklopol: in the literal sense as you don't believe they exist?
18:39:40 <dogface_> You see it in words like "police" and "politics".
18:39:40 <tusho> or in the "we don't need one" sense
18:39:43 <tusho> i hope it's the former
18:39:45 <dogface_> Oh, "city"? Hmm.
18:39:45 <oklopol> i refuse to admit any such beliefs
18:40:00 -!- dogface_ has changed nick to dogfreud_.
18:40:01 <lament> oklopol sounds mesoamerican to me
18:40:08 <lament> oklopotl
18:40:46 <oklopol> tusho: the former was definitely what i meant
18:40:52 <dogfreud_> Ah, you do not THINK you believe in governments. I know from experience with a patient of mine that the names we adopt ALWAYS reveal our true beliefs.
18:40:55 <tusho> oklopol: awesome
18:41:07 <dogfreud_> Cacahuate.
18:41:30 -!- dogfreud_ has changed nick to dogface_.
18:41:42 <dogface_> Or is it "cacahuete"?
18:41:44 <tusho> dogface_: what about bsmntbombdood
18:41:48 <bsmntbombdood> what
18:41:55 <oklopol> he's a terrorist
18:42:01 <dogface_> Exactly.
18:42:13 <tusho> thought so
18:42:21 <dogface_> He practices hate and extremism. And stereotype.
18:42:31 <tusho> dogface_: "lament" is about lamenting, presumably?
18:42:55 <dogface_> By no means!
18:43:05 <dogface_> It's actually mutated Spanish for "the mind".
18:43:22 <dogface_> (Or "the mint".)
18:43:24 <Deewiant> how do you get "atheism" out of "dogface"
18:43:33 <dogface_> Deewiant: God is ugly.
18:43:40 <Deewiant> ah, of course
18:43:42 <Deewiant> so obvious
18:43:43 <tusho> hah
18:43:52 <tusho> actually dogface is an insult at bush
18:43:56 <dogface_> So clearly, lament's belief is that the universe exists only in our minds.
18:43:58 <tusho> though generally he's compared to a monkey
18:44:05 <tusho> dogface_: Pantheism?
18:44:07 <tusho> er wait no
18:44:10 <tusho> urgh, I always mix up terms
18:44:12 <dogface_> Neither "dogface" nor "monkeyface" contains a "w".
18:44:13 <tusho> You know. Thingy.
18:44:22 <tusho> dogface_: Oh, of course. dog/god.
18:44:22 <dogface_> Seems like "pantheism" would mean "everything is God".
18:44:26 <tusho> Yes.
18:44:27 <dogface_> Yeah.
18:44:28 <tusho> It does.
18:44:35 <tusho> A pantheistic ... thing view would be funny/
18:44:35 <lament> you got it backwards, dogface_
18:44:42 <lament> i believe that our minds only exist in the universe
18:44:46 <tusho> The universe only exists in my head, but it's everyone's head.
18:44:57 <dogface_> Don't make me /nick dogfreud_ again.
18:45:08 <tusho> dogface_: Cigar.
18:45:14 <dogface_> Penis.
18:45:34 <tusho> dogface_: You need to be dogfreud_ to say that
18:45:41 <dogface_> Quiet, tusho, there are 12-year-olds in here.
18:46:00 <tusho> Oh, right.
18:46:06 <dogface_> The nick "Deewiant" is obvious, if you take of the "ant" and treat "Deewi" as a verb.
18:46:14 <tusho> Deewi = dewy
18:46:16 <tusho> as an adjective
18:46:21 <dogface_> Well, it's not an adjective.
18:46:30 <tusho> So it's an ant that has a lot of dew on it.
18:46:41 <Deewiant> and Dewi?
18:46:44 <dogface_> The "ant" just indicates that it's a verb.
18:46:49 <tusho> Deewiant: He has a lot of dew on himself.
18:47:00 <Deewiant> :-D
18:47:03 <dogface_> The "Dee" is the prefix "de-", and given "wi", I think Deewiant is an advocate of celibacy.
18:47:18 <Deewiant> "wi"?
18:48:19 <dogface_> Who was it that thought it would be cruel to bring children into the world because the world would end soon?
18:53:22 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:53:48 * oerjan thought his client was broken there for a moment.
18:53:54 <tusho> oerjan: why
18:53:56 <tusho> the topic?
18:54:00 <oerjan> yeah
18:54:02 <tusho> :D
18:54:09 <tusho> what does it show as for you
18:54:52 <oerjan> �XC lots of times, the last two inverted
18:55:22 <dogface_> The nick "oerjan" says we are living in a false vacuum which could be broken by human experiments at any moment.
18:55:53 * oerjan actually doubts that
18:56:04 <oerjan> the human experiments part, that is
18:56:22 <Deewiant> I got a bunch of XCs when tusho set the topic, but not in the topic itself
18:56:37 <Mony> hey dogface_, do u guess the personality of a person using his nick ? :p
18:56:43 <tusho> I just get â˜
18:56:46 <tusho> lots of them
18:56:52 <dogface_> Mony: no, I'm interpreting people's nicks as religions.
18:57:02 <Mony> oh... ok...
18:57:07 <Mony> and, with my nick ?
18:57:21 <dogface_> Your nick says that there is one God, and that that God is the number 0.
18:57:21 <tusho> Mony: Yours is the religion of devotion to money.
18:57:22 <tusho> Obviously.
18:57:26 <tusho> Oh, I prefer dogface_'s.
18:57:31 <Mony> lol
18:57:31 <tusho> Is God's name "vab"?
18:57:37 <Mony> yeah
18:57:37 <dogface_> tusho: pff. Yeah, right.
18:57:55 -!- Mony has changed nick to M0ny.
18:57:59 <M0ny> 1337 powa :p
18:58:08 -!- Deewiant has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 1337 powa.
18:58:31 <oerjan> finally an accurate topic
19:00:03 <oerjan> dogface_'s nick is more the animist spirit type, i think, believing obviously in a dog totem
19:00:49 <Deewiant> 2008-08-07 20:39:14 ( dogface_) "dogface" advocates atheism.
19:01:42 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-").
19:01:48 <dogface_> dogface_ has spoken.
19:02:01 -!- tusho has joined.
19:02:06 -!- olsner has joined.
19:02:17 -!- tusho has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric http://tunes.org/~.
19:02:27 <dogface_> To be loved, a whole life long.
19:02:48 <tusho> should I put rule 110 in the topic again?
19:02:52 <dogface_> Yep.
19:02:59 <tusho> Hmm.
19:03:02 <dogface_> Put the Four Axioms in it, too.
19:03:05 <tusho> What is Wolfram's Rule 34? :P
19:03:08 <oerjan> also, since my name was adopted by my parents, not me, i think it may say less about my religion.  except that i'm kind of person who uses his real name on irc
19:03:31 <tusho> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:CA_rule_2.png
19:03:32 <oerjan> tusho: use the binary force luke
19:03:35 <tusho> Good luck with Rule 34 of THAT.
19:03:36 <dogface_> oerjan: your religion states that the path to enlightenment is to be proud of oneself.
19:04:15 <oerjan> hm, you may be getting closer there
19:04:24 <tusho> dogface_: It was actually a bot that ran the cellular automata in the topic.
19:04:33 <oerjan> _too_ close.  i may have to kill you now.
19:04:35 <tusho> Every second it'd step the topic a bit further (obviously I'd set it to 30 minutes or whatever)
19:04:48 <tusho> oerjan: would that make you proud of yourself?
19:05:34 <oerjan> hm a paradox that
19:07:07 <oerjan> that's more the running-away-from-enlightenment path.  of course many people are following that one.
19:12:47 <tusho> lament: approval for cellular automata topic bot?
19:12:52 <tusho> Changes topic once every 30 mins or 1 hr
19:14:23 -!- dogface_ has changed nick to lamenth.
19:14:25 <lamenth> I approve.
19:14:28 -!- lamenth has changed nick to dogface_.
19:15:02 <tusho> lament: But do YOU approve?!
19:34:46 <tusho> IDEA:
19:34:55 <tusho> Make an esoteric linux/unix distribution.
19:35:08 <tusho> Hopefully, it should be bad enough to make Ken Thompson commit suicide.
19:35:11 <tusho> (Don't say Ubuntu.)
19:39:11 <oerjan> now what _is_ the swahili for "incomprehensible"? :D
19:40:09 <oerjan> hm wait that should be zulu
19:44:49 <oerjan> comprehensible v. -qedakala; -qondakala
19:46:05 <oerjan> ooh, zulu has negative inflection of verbs
19:51:47 <oerjan> hm, uhlelo means both system, list and programme
19:51:48 -!- dogface_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:52:55 <oerjan> n. 11/10, does that mean the verb should use inflection 11 with an uhlelo singular subject?
19:54:16 <oerjan> conclusion: aluqondakali means "It is not comprehensible" for a class 11 noun, like uhlelo might be
19:54:28 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:55:00 -!- Judofyr has joined.
19:55:19 <oerjan> (http://isizulu.net/?aluqondakali )
19:56:34 <oerjan> ah indeed class 10 seems to be only for plurals
19:56:54 <oerjan> (http://isizulu.net/?aziqondakali )
19:57:11 -!- Judofyr has quit (Client Quit).
19:57:41 <oerjan> although since uhlelo may also mean a single program, as well as system, both might be appropriate
19:59:43 <oerjan> tusho: there's your OS name
19:59:53 <oerjan> (or distribution)
20:00:00 <tusho> my?
20:00:02 <tusho> i never said me
20:00:03 <tusho> :D
20:02:18 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:04:04 <olsner> combine a C-to-BF compiler + BF interpreter and you can build a fully BF-based system
20:04:40 <pikhq> So, C2BF + Egobfi.
20:04:59 <pikhq> In other words: Gregor has a fully BF-based system's development environment. :D
20:06:02 <oerjan> running on a simulated processor in Javascript, iirc
20:06:29 <olsner> I wonder how long a linux kernel would take to load in that environment
20:06:40 <pikhq> Well, Gregor *could* probably manage to get Egobfi running in JSMIPS...
20:07:16 <pikhq> GregorR: You simply must do so... As a demonstration of your coding might.
20:07:16 <pikhq> :p
20:08:33 <olsner> what I would like is an infinite tower of recursive interpreters, such that e.g. the underlying jsmips is actually interpreted by itself by ways of jsmips/spidermonkey/c2bf/egobfi/jsmips :D
20:09:04 <olsner> fix (jsmips . spidermonkey . c2bf . egobfi) -- in pseudo-haskell
20:10:07 <oerjan> if we take Moore's law into account, it should work :D
20:11:05 <pikhq> C2BF sure as hell won't compile anything useful... Yet.
20:11:10 -!- revcompgeek has joined.
20:11:15 -!- revcompgeek has left (?).
20:11:40 <olsner> I've been thinking about building a (linux) distribution where everything is llvm:ized
20:11:58 <tusho> guess i'll show the active peeps my concatenative lang
20:11:58 <tusho> 0 .n 0 1 [dup [+ .n] dip swap] loop
20:12:03 <tusho> ^ infinite fibonacci program
20:12:49 <olsner> user-space that is, basically just a normal linux kernel, a hardware-specific llvm jit interpreter, and then every binary is just llvm bitcode files
20:16:09 <pikhq> OMFG; Gregor wrote a 9th opus.
20:16:19 <tusho> ?
20:16:29 <pikhq> http://codu.org/music.php
20:16:38 <tusho> oh ha
20:21:44 -!- Judofyr has joined.
20:23:52 * Sgeo growls at the fact that it's .mid
20:24:23 <Sgeo> Hi Judofyr
20:24:29 <Judofyr> Hi :)
20:26:45 * Sgeo wonders if listening to the growing rendering might be a bad idea
20:27:24 <M0ny> hi Judofyr
20:30:06 <tusho> what's wrong with midi Sgeo
20:30:35 <Deewiant> you never know what it's supposed to sound like
20:31:07 <Sgeo> tusho, can't keep timidity running, when I do, the MIDIs always stutter or something. The sound card or whatever doesn't do MIDI, apparently. So I wrote something to pass through MIDI files to timidity
20:31:08 <Deewiant> plus, the Roland VSTi crashes foobar2000 so I have to convert them to .oggs :-P
20:31:30 * tusho has a real mt-32, bitches
20:31:31 <tusho> :D
20:31:44 * Sgeo has a lot of files on his computer with filenames ending with .mid.ogg
20:32:51 <Deewiant> tusho: well, for /you/ there's nothing wrong with midi then >_<
20:32:59 * Deewiant renames foo.mid to foo.ogg
20:33:06 <tusho> Deewiant: It's not plugged in, though.
20:33:13 <Deewiant> meh
20:33:13 <tusho> I don't know if I could even plug it in to an iMac.
20:33:18 <Deewiant> what a waste
20:33:24 <tusho> Deewiant: I have no power adapter for it.
20:33:27 <tusho> I bought it like 2-3 years ago. :P
20:33:31 <tusho> It is rather dusty.
20:33:32 <Deewiant> >_<
20:33:35 <tusho> Do you want it?
20:33:35 <tusho> :P
20:33:47 <Deewiant> if you can deliver it here, and for free :-P
20:33:53 <tusho> Hmm. :P
20:38:06 * oerjan _thinks_ you are both within the EU, at least
20:38:22 <oerjan> practically next door, that
20:38:55 <tusho> quite.
20:38:58 <tusho> I also have a theremin.
20:39:02 <tusho> It cost, uh, £200?
20:39:24 <Deewiant> theremins are supposed to be built, not bought :-)
20:41:34 <tusho> Deewiant: shaddap
20:41:40 <tusho> it's a moog and all :P
20:41:42 <Deewiant> ;-P
20:41:52 <Deewiant> aren't moogs like the only ones worth getting anyway
20:42:03 <tusho> yea :P
20:42:10 * oerjan smells a citation needed
20:42:19 <tusho> its an etherwave though, not one of those fancy wooden ones
20:42:21 <tusho> well, it's wooden
20:42:22 <tusho> but :P
20:42:35 <oerjan> (on WP:Theremin)
20:43:13 <oerjan> actually maybe just delete it
20:43:32 <Deewiant> what
20:43:37 <tusho> oerjan: what
20:43:37 <tusho> why
20:43:40 <Deewiant> when
20:43:46 <tusho> theremins are hugely popular
20:43:47 <Deewiant> whence
20:43:59 <tusho> do you really want to delete that article oerjan
20:45:37 <oerjan> no, just the last change :D
20:46:16 <tusho> which one
20:46:26 <oerjan> "One of the greatest theremin players resides in League City, Texas. he is 20 years old and has been playing for 21 years."
20:46:30 <tusho> ha
20:46:37 <tusho> ...
20:46:37 <tusho> wait
20:46:42 <tusho> that doesn't even make sense
20:46:47 <tusho> did he play it in the womb
20:46:48 <oerjan> oh wait you're right
20:47:08 <Deewiant> :-D
20:47:11 <oerjan> i didn't notice it was 1 year _more_ than he'd lived
20:47:22 <Deewiant> Just add [citation needed]
20:47:27 <oerjan> no
20:47:27 <tusho> Deewiant++
20:47:30 <tusho> do it oerjan
20:47:30 <tusho> :D
20:47:31 <oerjan> i already undid it
20:47:34 <tusho> awww
20:47:43 <Deewiant> I'll undo your undo and add [citation needed]
20:47:51 <oerjan> although i did remark it needed a citation
20:52:23 <oerjan> maybe you _could_ play it in the womb - it doesn't need to be touched, after all :D
20:53:10 <Deewiant> maybe he rounded the 21 years but not his age, as is standard
20:53:19 <Deewiant> i.e. he's 20 years and 10 months old, or whatever
20:57:43 <tusho> Hmm.
20:58:02 <tusho> For the 2-cell unbounded integer brainfuck - which is TC -
20:58:06 <tusho> what minimalisations can you do?
20:59:56 <oerjan> 2-cell? is that enough?
21:00:32 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
21:00:37 <tusho> yep oerjan
21:00:40 <tusho> it's a minsky machine
21:00:41 <tusho> I believe
21:00:50 <RodgerTheGreat> that seems plausible
21:01:03 <RodgerTheGreat> so you encode the tape in a single digit and use the other cell as the machine's state?
21:01:05 <oerjan> i'd have thought you needed one more bf cell to simulate minsky cells
21:01:11 <RodgerTheGreat> s/digit/cell
21:01:12 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: pretty sure, yeah
21:01:17 <tusho> but yeah, I wonder what instruction minimalisations you could do with that
21:01:36 <RodgerTheGreat> it'd be pretty awful to use for anything nontrivial. :|
21:01:45 <RodgerTheGreat> but I can certainly see how it'd be TC
21:02:20 <RodgerTheGreat> oerjan: what would you need a third cell for?
21:02:22 <oerjan> i'd think the bf program position would be the state
21:03:04 <tusho> hmm
21:03:12 <tusho> to be able to do all the IO bf programs can you'd need a 3rd cell
21:03:19 <tusho> (for tmp storage to extract a single cell to output)
21:03:29 <oerjan> i did not consider IO there
21:03:42 <tusho> i think 2 is TC and 3 for IO-complete
21:03:47 <oerjan> i just think simulating a tape with 2 BF cells seems too hard
21:03:52 <RodgerTheGreat> you might actually need temp storage just to extract cells for manipulation, really.
21:04:08 <tusho> ok, 3-4 cells then
21:04:14 <oerjan> recall that a tape needs 2 stacks
21:04:23 <tusho> either way, I wonder what instruction minimalisation we could do when applying these restrictions
21:04:58 <RodgerTheGreat> let's prove it ourselves. How would we go about encoding a tape in a small number and then accessing and altering specific cells using BF commands?
21:05:24 * tusho shrugs. :P
21:05:30 <RodgerTheGreat> and that should be "a small number of cells"
21:05:30 <oerjan> i think a stack can be emulated with 2 BF cells.
21:05:50 <oerjan> 2 stacks, i.e. a tape, requires 3 if you can share one cell as tempspace
21:06:01 <RodgerTheGreat> I imagine you'd do an algorithm similar to how you extract the digits of a number, unless there's an easier way
21:06:07 <RodgerTheGreat> prime encoding or something, perhaps
21:06:26 <oerjan> binary digits is enough
21:06:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I know that
21:06:38 <oerjan> gives a stack of bits
21:06:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm talking about implementation, not theory
21:09:26 <oerjan> hm the wiki is not helpful, it talks about 5-register minsky machines
21:11:23 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando").
21:17:08 * Sgeo <3 the KQ music
21:18:53 -!- pikhq has left (?).
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21:44:21 <lament> cellular automata topic bot?
21:46:20 <oerjan> aka catbot, right?
21:47:05 <psygnisfive> hey
21:47:18 <psygnisfive> we should just have an automata topic bot.
21:47:43 <psygnisfive> tho that might as well be me. i can tell you about automata. maybe. :X
21:48:20 <oerjan> i say automayta, you say automahta
21:48:33 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving").
21:49:14 <psygnisfive> actually i say it like its supposed to be said: /OtAm@4@/
21:50:14 <psygnisfive> well
21:50:17 <psygnisfive> those should be []
21:50:42 <psygnisfive> aw-TAH-muh-tuhn
21:50:54 <psygnisfive> for the singular
21:50:59 <psygnisfive> aw-TAH-muh-tuh for the plural
21:51:06 <tusho> Back
21:51:15 * oerjan throws a rotten automaton at psygnisfive 
21:51:18 <psygnisfive> tho obviously in normal speech the second t is tapped and sounds more like a d
21:51:22 <tusho> lament: it runs a rule 110 automation in the topic
21:51:27 <tusho> by stepping it every 30 mins/1 hr/whatever
21:51:29 <psygnisfive> hey! no rotten automata throwing!
21:51:44 <tusho> in continuing with the tradition of crazy topics...
21:51:49 <tusho> it'd also allow extra stuff in the topic
21:51:51 <lament> tusho: how does it look like?
21:51:52 <tusho> that is you could do
21:52:00 <tusho> log url | cellular state | some stuff
21:52:04 <tusho> and it'd only modify the middle
21:52:20 <tusho> lament: I had one in #esoteric-blah a while back, it basically did it with * and - or whatever
21:52:23 <tusho> it looked really neat
21:52:34 <tusho> i'll have to rewrite it due to different machine but that'd only take a second
21:52:37 <lament> cool
21:52:54 <psygnisfive> we should have a theme song
21:53:04 <psygnisfive> i propose we use Kraftwerks We are the Robots
21:53:20 <tusho> nah it'd have to be made by fuge
21:53:22 <tusho> err
21:53:25 <tusho> whatever that lang is called
21:53:36 <lament> Fugue?
21:53:40 <tusho> yes
21:53:47 -!- tusho has changed nick to meowbot.
21:53:52 <meowbot> (C.A.T get it arf arf arf)
21:54:19 <meowbot> Nick MeowBot is already registered to Jerick.
21:54:20 <meowbot> :|
21:54:23 -!- meowbot has changed nick to catbot.
21:54:24 * oerjan thought arf was a dog sound
21:54:39 -!- catbot has changed nick to OerjansTerribleP.
21:54:41 <OerjansTerribleP> aww
21:54:45 <OerjansTerribleP> OerjansTerriblePunsBot
21:54:48 <psygnisfive> it is
21:55:01 -!- OerjansTerribleP has changed nick to otpbot.
21:56:03 -!- otpbot has changed nick to tusho.
21:56:08 <psygnisfive> actually
21:56:18 -!- otpbot has joined.
21:56:18 <otpbot> y helo dar
21:56:24 -!- otpbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:56:29 <psygnisfive> i propose that the song we have as a themesong
21:56:30 <tusho> ok let's see
21:56:35 <psygnisfive> is Art of the Fugue or something similar
21:56:37 <tusho> which rule should I use?
21:56:40 <tusho> 110 is the most interesting right
21:56:43 <psygnisfive> in midi.
21:56:59 <tusho> hmm
21:57:02 <tusho> rule 110 grows leftwards
21:57:07 <tusho> actually
21:57:09 <lament> fart of the ugue
21:57:11 <tusho> it'd be nicer just to have one of the patterny ones
21:57:13 <tusho> not a growing one
21:57:23 <tusho> even though TCness in the topic is fun
21:57:34 <psygnisfive> ofcourse, im convinced that playing the full Art of the Fugue to the Fugue interpreter would summon god or some other magnificent event
21:57:58 <psygnisfive> implement a simple turing machine, tusho.
21:58:02 <tusho> no
21:58:03 <oerjan> you could always use wrapping
21:58:05 <tusho> cellular automata are more fun
21:58:46 * tusho thinks
21:59:07 <tusho> need a pretty cellular automata that doesn't grow...
21:59:27 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They're_Coming_to_Take_Me_Away_Ha-Haaa!
22:00:05 <oerjan> tusho: i said, just use wrapping
22:00:12 <tusho> oerjan: in what way?
22:00:28 <oerjan> left end wraps to right end
22:02:02 <oerjan> although rule 110 tends to degrade into a small number of gliders on the ether pattern
22:02:14 <tusho> hmm
22:02:17 <tusho> what would you suggest then?
22:02:31 <oerjan> (possibly zero, although you can prevent that by having the width _not_ be a multiple of 14)
22:03:35 * tusho thinks
22:03:36 <oerjan> i think rule 30 is also an interesting one?
22:03:39 <tusho> oerjan: yes
22:03:52 <tusho> but it grows both ways
22:03:53 <tusho> unfortunately
22:04:25 <oerjan> i still suggest wrapping regardless of rule
22:06:23 <tusho> yes
22:06:23 <tusho> hmm
22:06:25 <tusho> I implemented rule 30
22:06:27 <tusho> but it never grows..
22:06:52 <tusho> ah wait
22:06:56 <tusho> it needs to pretend it has an infinite list
22:06:57 <tusho> hmph
22:07:35 <tusho> I suck at implementing this :D
22:07:45 * tusho nabs an impl
22:13:39 <tusho> this is annoying
22:13:39 <tusho> :D
22:16:28 <tusho> oky
22:16:36 <tusho> oerjan: I'm unsure how to do wrapping
22:16:36 <tusho> :\
22:16:51 <oerjan> language?
22:16:57 <tusho> ruby :p
22:17:01 <oerjan> erm
22:17:07 <tusho> but yeah, I'm just not sure the general algorithm
22:17:10 <tusho> for wrapping the cellular automata
22:18:55 <oerjan> you can modify the string by adding the first and last chars at the opposite end
22:19:16 <tusho> how does that wrap it though?
22:19:18 <oerjan> then remove afterward
22:19:26 <oerjan> you do it _each_ step
22:19:46 <tusho> ah
22:19:53 <tusho> 'then remove afterward'?
22:20:24 <oerjan> it depends how your base algorithm does things
22:21:33 <oerjan> another possibility would be to use mod to look up indices
22:21:46 <oerjan> (with the length)
22:23:55 <tusho> I just have a black-box function that changes a global array atm :)
22:24:00 <tusho> shaped like ["0","0","1"]
22:24:24 <oerjan> right and what does that function do at the ends
22:24:30 <tusho> def step
22:24:31 <tusho>   width = 3 + $cells.length
22:24:31 <tusho>   $cells = (['0','0'] + $cells + ['0','0']).enum_cons(3).map {|l| $rule[l]}
22:24:31 <tusho> end
22:24:31 <tusho> :p
22:24:39 <tusho> hm it doesn't even use width
22:24:43 <tusho>   $cells = (['0','0'] + $cells + ['0','0']).enum_cons(3).map {|l| $rule[l]}
22:24:50 <tusho> $rule = {["0", "0", "0"]=>"0", ["1", "1", "0"]=>"0", ["1", "1", "1"]=>"0", ["0", "1", "0"]=>"1", ["0", "1", "1"]=>"1", ["1", "0", "1"]=>"0", ["0", "0", "1"]=>"1", ["1", "0", "0"]=>"1"}
22:25:37 <oerjan> i see so you add ['0','0'] at both ends.  well just add the opposite end chars instead.
22:25:50 <tusho> so
22:26:02 <tusho> $cells[-2, -1] + $cells + $cells[0, 1]?
22:26:15 <oerjan> something like that
22:26:55 <oerjan> except i'm not sure why you add 2 chars rather than just 1
22:27:00 * tusho shrugs
22:27:36 <tusho> oerjan:   $cells = ([$cells[-1]] + $cells + [$cells[0]]).enum_cons(3).map {|l| $rule[l]}
22:27:38 <tusho> just makes it go 1
22:27:40 <tusho> then 0 0 0 0 0 0...
22:29:21 <oerjan> what should 111 give?
22:29:43 <tusho> ooh
22:29:44 <tusho> it works
22:30:12 <tusho> HAHA
22:30:13 <tusho> THE ARROWS
22:30:14 <tusho> THEY ARE THERE
22:30:30 <oerjan> o_O
22:30:36 <tusho> the arrows in the pattern
22:30:36 <tusho> :D
22:31:57 <tusho> ok
22:32:01 <tusho> i've put it on speed mode
22:32:04 <oerjan> ah yes i guess adding two zeros at the end is the thing if you _want_ to grow
22:32:04 <tusho> (one change per sec)
22:32:10 <tusho> so we can see it in action a bit
22:32:35 <tusho> otpbot.rb:20:in `write': Broken pipe (Errno::EPIPE)
22:32:36 <tusho> lol
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22:33:09 <oerjan> one change per sec may be above the flooding limit
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22:33:14 <tusho> i did it every 3 secs
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22:33:44 <tusho> hmph, it was more exciting in #esoteric-blah
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22:34:00 <tusho> lament: verdickt?
22:34:29 <oerjan> verdickt: verdammt! :D
22:34:48 <tusho> :p
22:35:06 <M0ny> wtf, topic flood :p
22:35:42 <tusho> M0ny: cellular automata floo
22:35:42 <tusho> d
22:35:43 <tusho> :D
22:35:51 <M0ny> :D
22:37:35 <oerjan> sadly my client won't show long enough lines to see the topic messages nicely
22:37:55 <lament> my irc client doesn't even display the topic (but it does display topic changes)
22:38:05 <oerjan> i meant the changes
22:38:15 <tusho> there has to be _something_ we can do to spruce up the topic
22:38:20 <tusho> maybe a markov chain topic?
22:38:41 <tusho> y/n?
22:39:18 <oerjan> i _do_ see the topic itself at the top, it was like a movie.  but 1d automata are nicest when shown in 2d
22:39:28 <lament> yeah
22:39:35 <lament> in 1d, we ought to be showing 0d automata
22:39:37 <tusho> oerjan: agreed
22:39:41 <tusho> it's the triangles that do it
22:39:44 <lament> (0d automaton = markov chain!)
22:40:19 <tusho> lament: WELL THEN!
22:40:22 <tusho> it looks like it's decided
22:40:34 <tusho> should it just regurgitate #esoteric or something else too?
22:41:03 <lament> maybe #politics
22:41:07 <lament> or #ubuntu
22:41:16 <lament> how about #haskell?
22:41:20 <lament> that would make us look smart
22:41:46 <tusho> maybe it should regurgitate some hacking channel on another server
22:42:39 <lament> #haskell uses a bunch of advanced terminology
22:42:52 <tusho> yes true
22:42:57 <tusho> zygomorphic prehistormimes
22:43:11 <tusho> lament: so it should listen to #esoteric _and_ haskell
22:43:18 <tusho> so we  get things like 'bounded turing zygomorphisms'
22:43:22 <oerjan> proteocategorically memeographic
22:44:19 * oerjan wonders if there is a paleontology channel
22:44:21 <lament> sounds good
22:44:34 <lament> although i think in #esoteric we mostly talk about gay rape
22:44:38 <lament> and not the Turing kind
22:45:20 <tusho> main.c:7:20: error: malloc.h: No such file or directory
22:45:25 <oerjan> i don't know that Turing was ever convicted of rape
22:45:26 <tusho> STUPID FREAKING ABANDONWARE
22:46:09 <oerjan> of course if he had, it would have been gay
22:46:45 <tusho> i686-apple-darwin8-gcc-4.0.1: unrecognized option '-shared'
22:46:47 <tusho> RETARDED SHIT
22:46:56 * tusho gets a binary
22:47:19 <oerjan> at this rate i think we should just regurgitate tusho
22:47:49 <lament> or just put direct quotes in the topic
22:48:08 -!- lament has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | STUPID FREAKING ABANDONWARE.
22:48:55 * tusho contemplates feeding the entire backlog of #esoteric to the bot
22:49:53 -!- lament has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | STUPID FREAKING ABANDONWARE.
22:50:36 <tusho> goddamn I just want a megahal binary
22:50:38 <tusho> is that too much
22:51:02 <oerjan> what's megahal?
22:51:06 <lament> use lambdabot
22:51:30 <tusho> oerjan: a markov chain bot
22:51:34 <tusho> very well-refined
22:51:42 -!- Corun has joined.
22:51:43 <tusho> it has something like two opposite-direction 4-order markov chains one for punctuation or something
22:51:45 <tusho> I don't understand it
22:52:21 <tusho> ARGH FUCKING .SIT FILE
22:52:51 <oerjan> hm the WP page has disputed notability
22:57:34 <tusho> woop woop installed
22:58:22 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Woop_Woop <- this you mean?
22:58:23 * tusho downloads all the logs
23:00:41 <tusho> wtfoo
23:00:45 <tusho> wget isn't mirroring prop'ly
23:01:03 <oerjan> you should leave out those that contain elder god names
23:01:21 <oerjan> wget may be doing that automatically
23:01:34 -!- RedDak has joined.
23:02:00 <tusho> AHA
23:02:00 <tusho> Disallow: /~nef/logs/
23:02:08 <tusho> how can I tell wget to ignore robots.txt
23:02:08 <tusho> :P
23:02:37 <GregorR> By modifying the code.
23:02:51 <tusho> nope
23:02:53 <tusho> -e robots=no
23:03:24 <tusho> there it gooooes
23:03:32 <tusho> Hmm./
23:03:34 <tusho> A long time will take this.
23:05:07 <tusho> yay
23:05:08 <tusho> on to 2005
23:06:44 <tusho> lament: how often should it change the topic?
23:17:21 <tusho> ping
23:17:42 <M0ny> pong
23:17:45 <M0ny> ;D
23:20:06 <oerjan> 6uod
23:20:12 -!- dogface has joined.
23:20:52 <dogface> Are there compilers to Unlambda?
23:21:53 <tusho> yes
23:24:04 * tusho watches it be train'd
23:27:03 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:28:58 <tusho> help. have not memory for this
23:29:05 <tusho> megahakl be import slow
23:29:19 <tusho> computer die.
23:29:53 -!- olsner has joined.
23:30:23 <oerjan> my memory is going.  i can feel it.
23:31:06 <tusho> much better.
23:31:08 <tusho> though still slow.
23:31:10 <tusho> 74%
23:31:16 <dogface> We only need one compiler.
23:31:51 <tusho> so darn slow
23:31:52 <dogface> Why write a new compiler when you can take two compilers, compose them, and compile the result?
23:32:30 <tusho> 75%
23:32:32 <tusho> how long will this take
23:32:58 <pikhq> Because new compilers can be more efficient when compiling.
23:33:15 <tusho> 76%
23:33:20 <tusho> can't wait this long.
23:33:21 <dogface> I guess some hand-optimization is necessary.
23:33:22 <tusho> am be terminate.
23:33:48 <pikhq> tusho: Doing what?
23:33:56 <dogface> I know of a simple extension to Unlambda that would make it Much Better
23:33:57 <tusho> megahal import of this whole channel
23:34:06 <pikhq> :)
23:34:10 <tusho> all logs
23:34:14 <tusho> bleah
23:34:18 * pikhq is slowly doing pvmove magic
23:34:24 <tusho> 544673 megahal.trn
23:34:33 <dogface> ``Exy returns either x or y. `Rx makes the interpreter happy and returns x. `Px makes the interpreter sad and returns x.
23:34:46 <tusho> pikhq: how many lines do you think I should train it with
23:34:50 <tusho> 144673?
23:34:58 <pikhq> 1337**2
23:35:08 <dogface> 2**1337
23:35:20 <pikhq> 2^1337
23:35:23 <pikhq> Erm.
23:35:28 <pikhq> 2^^1337
23:35:35 <dogface> Actually, 1337*ln(1337) would be a good number.
23:35:57 <dogface> G_1337. Or (G_)^1334 64.
23:36:05 <dogface> And by 1334, I mean 1337.
23:36:26 <pikhq> Oh, the fun that can be had with uparrow notation.
23:36:33 <pikhq> 2
23:36:35 * tusho tries again with shorter train
23:36:42 <pikhq> 2^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^2
23:36:56 <tusho> it'll have to learn the more recent gay sex
23:36:57 <tusho> i'm afraid
23:37:12 <dogface> Do you consider "(G_)^1334 64" to be unambiguous?
23:37:34 <dogface> Hmm, we really need a system for representing Very Large Numbers.
23:38:10 <tusho> Training from file: 100%
23:39:24 <dogface> { x } y means the string x repeated y times. ( x | y ) means x y x. 0 means 0. + x means x+1.
23:39:50 <dogface> Well, let's not just say 0 means 0; let's say all natural numbers are themselves.
23:40:42 <dogface> "{+}5 5" is "+ + + + + 5", which is 10. How to interpret braces inside braces is left as an exercise for the reader.
23:41:47 <pikhq> dogface: There's been a ton of them.
23:41:58 <psygnisfive> what the hell are you kids talking about
23:42:01 <dogface> Indeed.
23:42:11 <pikhq> Asimov did one, Knuth did one, I think oerjan did one, I bet ais523 did one...
23:42:27 <dogface> Coming up with a system for representing Very Large Numbers is a lot like coming up with a system for representing ordinal numbers.
23:42:29 <tusho> -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird ehird 2.4M 2008-08-07 23:42 megahal.brn
23:42:46 <psygnisfive> oh i see
23:42:49 <tusho> >>> mh_python.doreply("How are you today?")
23:42:49 <tusho> zsh: bus error  python
23:42:51 <psygnisfive> representing very large numbers
23:42:51 <psygnisfive> ok.
23:43:07 <tusho> >>> mh_python.doreply("How are you today?")
23:43:08 <tusho> 'Machine, secondly, implement the turing paper uses a delta symbol in lambda calculus.'
23:43:18 <tusho> >>> mh_python.doreply("What is the meaning of life?")
23:43:19 <tusho> zsh: bus error  python
23:43:31 <dogface> I'm seeing a pattern.
23:44:04 * dogface thinks about why "the smallest ordinal number not expressible in ZFC" cannot be written in ZFC
23:44:20 <tusho> > What is the meaning of life?
23:44:21 <tusho> >
23:44:21 <tusho> zsh: bus error  ~/megahal-9.1.1/megahal -d .
23:44:27 <tusho> ENTERPRISE-GRADE SOFTWARE
23:44:43 <psygnisfive> isnt megahal one of those loebner prize bots?
23:44:52 <tusho> yea
23:45:06 <tusho> its gonna be changing the topics around here
23:45:08 <tusho> if it stops crashing
23:45:24 <psygnisfive> loebner prize bots suck
23:45:24 <dogface> Hmm, making a ZFC in ZFC. Add some axioms: there's a set called Mini-ZFC, and the sets in Mini-ZFC satisfy the ZFC axioms themselves.
23:45:25 <psygnisfive> they're shit
23:45:31 <tusho> >>> mh_python.doreply("What should the next topic be?")
23:45:31 <tusho> ' Topic'
23:45:36 <dogface> Is there some other prize that isn't shit?
23:45:37 <tusho> psygnisfive: megahal is pretty good
23:45:48 <psygnisfive> by who's measure?
23:45:55 <psygnisfive> not by turings.
23:46:06 <tusho> Yeah. It has to be strong AI otherwise it's trash, right?
23:46:06 <dogface> I should turn GHC into a chatbot.
23:46:08 <psygnisfive> and dont say the loebner prize is a turing test
23:46:10 <psygnisfive> cause its not
23:46:10 <tusho> It can't just be amusing.
23:46:13 <tusho> Noo.
23:49:12 <oerjan> dogface: there's probably some way to get from "the smallest ordinal number not expressible in ZFC exists" to "ZFC is consistent" or similar
23:49:30 <oerjan> which hits against godel's incompleteness theorem
23:50:11 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
23:50:58 <dogface> The opposite of "the smallest ordinal number not expressible in ZFC exists" is "all ordinal numbers are expressible in ZFC".
23:51:34 <oerjan> i did say "or similar".  there is probably some technical work to be done.
23:51:36 <psygnisfive> i dont think so
23:51:41 <psygnisfive> the first sentence says
23:52:11 <psygnisfive> There exists some number that is not expressible in ZFC that is smaller than all other numbers not expressible in ZFC
23:52:27 <psygnisfive> the opposte of that would be that there does NOT exist some number ...
23:52:43 <psygnisfive> which would say that there is no smallest number not expressible in ZFC
23:53:00 <tusho> stupid megahal
23:53:04 <tusho> who has non-markov-chain ideas
23:53:14 <oerjan> i don't think that makes much difference.  with ordinal numbers there always is a smallest one
23:53:14 <psygnisfive> which is not the same at all as saying that all ordinal numbers are expressible in ZFC
23:53:17 <dogface> tusho: turn GHC into a chatbot.
23:53:23 <tusho> No. :P
23:53:28 <psygnisfive> oerjan: real numbers are ordinal.
23:53:33 <oerjan> psygnisfive: no
23:53:45 <oerjan> ordinal number is a technical term
23:53:49 <lament> tusho: create a virtual machine with a really small memory, put memory in the topic
23:53:51 <dogface> Very few real numbers are ordinal, and very few ordinal numbers are real.
23:53:58 <tusho> lament: and...
23:54:35 <psygnisfive> hm
23:55:03 <lament> tusho: and execute an instruction every so often.
23:55:33 <psygnisfive> well either way, the two statements are not the same
23:55:56 <lament> very few real numbers are real.
23:57:16 <dogface> psygnisfive: you say "there is no minimal ordinal number not expressible in ZFC" is not the same as "there is no ordinal number not expressible in ZFC"?
23:58:35 <psygnisfive> ah, i suppose you're right. :)
23:58:37 <tusho> lament: how often should it change the topic
23:58:46 <dogface> As statements of ZFC + "ZFC is consistent" (I like to call it ZFC_1), both are false anyway.
23:59:05 <psygnisfive> i dont do good with logical statements rendered in plain english :(
23:59:48 <dogface> ZFC + "ZFC is inconsistent" is definitely inconsistent, isn't it?

2008-08-08:

00:00:04 <dogface> I guess it is.
00:00:12 <oerjan> dogface: hm, no
00:00:19 <tusho> well yeah
00:00:22 <dogface> Must not be, actually.
00:00:23 <tusho> an axiom is that it's inconsistent
00:00:25 <tusho> so it must be
00:00:26 -!- otpbot has joined.
00:00:26 -!- otpbot has set topic: *sex.
00:00:30 -!- otpbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:00:32 <tusho> nice debut
00:00:49 <psygnisfive> tusho: LOGS.
00:00:49 <dogface> tusho: an axiom isn't that "it" is inconsistent; an axiom is that ZFC is inconsistent.
00:00:58 <tusho> psygnisfive: wut
00:01:02 <psygnisfive> you need logs
00:01:08 <tusho> what do you mean
00:01:08 <psygnisfive> you cant not link to the logs
00:01:12 <tusho> yes
00:01:13 <tusho> I know that
00:01:15 <tusho> jesus fucking christ
00:01:17 <tusho> I'm fixing that
00:01:19 <psygnisfive> *sex is not a link to the logs
00:01:20 <tusho> stop being so anal
00:01:20 <psygnisfive> :P
00:01:28 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: anal*sex.
00:01:28 <dogface> Though ZFC being inconsistent implies that ZFC + "ZFC is inconsistent" is inconsistent, too.
00:01:31 -!- otpbot has joined.
00:01:31 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Hmm, indeed..
00:01:37 <tusho> otpbot: test
00:01:40 <tusho> urgh
00:01:41 -!- otpbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:01:43 <oerjan> psygnisfive: well metaphysically speaking, and considering rule 34...
00:01:55 <psygnisfive> what?
00:02:10 <oerjan> everything is linked to sex
00:02:41 -!- otpbot has joined.
00:02:41 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | >.
00:02:44 <tusho> otpbot test
00:02:49 <tusho> hmm
00:02:51 <tusho> verily, that is b0rken
00:02:53 -!- otpbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:02:55 <psygnisfive> thats not a metaphorical use of the word link, its just a different word.
00:02:59 <psygnisfive> you suck, oerjan.
00:03:02 <dogface> So, ZFC + "this theory is inconsistent" is inconsistent, isn't it? Proving that the existence of a proof of a statement implies that statement would prove that.
00:03:29 <oerjan> psygnisfive: you are probably not ready to understand this yet
00:03:38 <dogface> Doesn't that mean that ZFC being consistent implies that ZFC + "ZFC is consistent" is consistent?
00:03:39 <psygnisfive> erg
00:03:46 <psygnisfive> metaphysically, god damnit
00:03:50 <psygnisfive> brain, READ.
00:03:58 <psygnisfive> tho still.
00:03:59 <psygnisfive> what?
00:04:11 <dogface> How did I come to that conclusion, I wonder...
00:04:25 <oerjan> you have also forgotten rule 57 of #esoteric:
00:04:34 <tusho> you do not talk about #esoteric?
00:04:36 -!- otpbot has joined.
00:04:37 * oerjan is joking 97% of the time
00:04:41 <tusho> otpbot
00:04:46 <tusho> otpbot you're an asshole
00:04:48 <tusho> you don't listen to me.
00:04:49 <tusho> asshole.
00:04:49 <psygnisfive> jokes are supposed to be funny
00:04:58 <psygnisfive> YOURS ARE NOT
00:05:04 <tusho> actually shut the hell up psygnisfive
00:05:09 <psygnisfive> no u
00:05:10 <tusho> i find them funny, I believe ihope/dogface does
00:05:13 <tusho> ais523 does
00:05:17 <tusho> basically everyone does.
00:05:17 <lament> tusho: once a day?
00:05:27 <tusho> lament: once a minute atm for testing
00:05:27 <tusho> :D
00:05:37 -!- otpbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:05:40 <psygnisfive> just like everyone found rodger's puzzle easy?
00:05:47 <oerjan> oh dear i don't think i've had anyone fighting over me before
00:05:52 <lament> tusho: i think it would make the most sense to base the interval on chat lines
00:06:03 <oerjan> or it could just be my usual lousy memory
00:06:04 <tusho> lament: it's meant to give us something to talk about
00:06:05 <dogface> Eh. End result: ZFC is so good that it's inconsistent.
00:06:09 -!- otpbot has joined.
00:06:09 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | what they express is generally a combination of what they're surrounded by.
00:06:11 <lament> otherwise when the channel is quiet, the bot would flood the logs
00:06:20 <tusho> lament: not -that- much of a problem
00:06:23 <tusho> if it's only once every 6 hours, say
00:06:28 <tusho> otpbot tset
00:06:28 <otpbot> tusho: oklokok: waitwait we're talking about the halting problem here
00:06:28 <lament> sure
00:06:33 <tusho> otpbot
00:06:34 <otpbot> tusho: one thing I tried to do a long time ago, and failed at, was to come up with bf code blocks to replace c commands.. for example: while(), etc.  The basic ones are relatively simple, but it gets more complicated when break and continue are added
00:06:44 <tusho> it just regurgitates log lines :D
00:06:45 <tusho> otpbot!
00:06:45 <otpbot> tusho: function name(params) return
00:06:47 <tusho> hm
00:06:54 -!- otpbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:07:05 -!- otpbot has joined.
00:07:05 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | like short int = short.
00:07:07 <tusho> otpbot!
00:07:08 -!- otpbot has set topic: . . ..
00:07:10 <tusho> ...
00:07:10 <tusho> oops
00:07:15 <M0ny> :p
00:07:19 -!- otpbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:07:22 <dogface> Guy who first said that: break and continue are easy to implement with continuations.
00:07:29 -!- otpbot has joined.
00:07:29 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | You suck GregorR!.
00:07:31 <tusho> optbot!
00:07:33 <tusho> er
00:07:34 <tusho> HAHAHHAHA
00:07:41 <tusho> oh man, it's better than a markov chain
00:07:46 <tusho> context removal is awesome
00:07:51 <tusho> otpbot!
00:07:51 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | they would need to switch every befung instruction.
00:07:55 <tusho> otpbot!
00:07:55 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | anybody here?.
00:07:57 <tusho> otpbot!
00:07:57 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 9 oklopol: bf_txtgen.
00:08:01 <tusho> optbot you are awesome.
00:08:04 <tusho> otpbot you are awesome.
00:08:05 <otpbot> tusho: ehird: I will gladly hand you the reigns if you want to continue work on JSMMIX :P
00:08:06 <tusho> god damn
00:08:10 <tusho> LOL
00:08:10 <psygnisfive> tusho
00:08:12 <lament> otpbot!
00:08:12 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | SADOL can express strings like this "5idiot.
00:08:16 <psygnisfive> you're spamming now
00:08:18 <psygnisfive> stop this.
00:08:21 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | there's a pretty nifty little java implementation out there.
00:08:23 <lament> otpbot!
00:08:23 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ais523, same.
00:08:24 <tusho> lament: should I stop this?
00:08:36 <lament> never!
00:08:40 <tusho> right then
00:08:42 <tusho> otpbot!
00:08:42 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | oklokok: compilers don't always do what i want them to do.....
00:08:51 <tusho> otpbot: What is the meaning of life?
00:08:51 <otpbot> tusho: Aaaha!
00:08:54 <tusho> XD
00:09:01 <psygnisfive> otpbot!
00:09:02 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no sequence, either.
00:09:04 <psygnisfive> ..
00:09:07 <lament> otpbot: can Haskell be used to write a compiler?
00:09:08 <otpbot> lament: mtve: it could be assumed that all programs will eventually exit, by loss of power, malfunction, etc
00:09:17 <lament> IT IS SENTIENT
00:09:21 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | personally, I might've gone with black-on-white.
00:09:22 <tusho> quite
00:09:32 <tusho> i'll decrease that interval in a sec
00:09:35 <tusho> but this is great :D
00:09:36 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:09:41 <tusho> otpbot: are you a human?
00:09:41 <otpbot> tusho: i lost my whirl interpreter
00:09:45 <lament> otpbot: who would win, God or Chuck Norris?
00:09:45 <otpbot> lament: I suspect Life32 is faster, though
00:09:46 <tusho> ... lmao
00:09:47 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
00:09:57 <tusho> otpbot: are you otpbot?
00:09:58 <otpbot> tusho: hm
00:09:59 <lament> we scared olsner
00:10:06 <tusho> otpbot: why are you unsure?
00:10:07 <otpbot> tusho: /compiler
00:10:12 -!- Judofyr has joined.
00:10:13 <tusho> otpbot: ah you need a compiler to be sure?
00:10:14 <otpbot> tusho: I don't simply care of ehird wants the name, he didn't announce it, nor release it, first
00:10:21 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric |     vp00-1g00*g00<.
00:10:21 <tusho> otpbot: I don
00:10:22 <otpbot> tusho: And opened the hard drive
00:10:26 <tusho> 't want your name!
00:10:29 <lament> otpbot: what do you think of apples
00:10:30 <otpbot> lament: ahh its de onlz
00:10:33 <tusho> ...
00:10:34 <tusho> XDDDDDDDDDDD
00:10:35 <dogface> otpbot: how easy is it to write a GCC backend?
00:10:36 <otpbot> dogface: oh ^^
00:10:44 <tusho> ^^ is an expression of happiness
00:10:46 <tusho> therefore, it is easy
00:10:48 <dogface> He's glad to find out.
00:10:56 <dogface> Ah, cool.
00:10:58 <tusho> otpbot: is this hilarious?
00:10:58 <otpbot> tusho: ais523: i'll condition on the modulo of a graham's number thingy
00:11:07 <oerjan> otpbot: are you insane?
00:11:07 <otpbot> oerjan: ...
00:11:08 <tusho> ah, so there's a condition to its hilarity?
00:11:18 <tusho> suck on this, turing
00:11:21 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ISWIM?.
00:11:21 <lament> otpbot!
00:11:26 <tusho> sentience in like 10 lines of ruby
00:11:36 <tusho> otpbot!
00:11:36 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | just to get to know the country.
00:11:38 <dogface> optbot, what's 1/(sqrt(2)-1) as rational linear combinations of square roots?
00:11:41 <lament> tusho: refactor
00:11:44 <tusho> lament: :D
00:11:47 <tusho> hmm
00:11:50 <tusho> I should make it optbot
00:11:50 <lament> otpbot!
00:11:51 -!- otpbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hm?.
00:11:52 -!- tusho has changed nick to optbot.
00:11:57 <lament> hm?
00:12:19 -!- otpbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:12:25 <dogface> I've wondered for a while whether 1/(sqrt(2)-1) even can be expressed as rational linear combinations of square roots.
00:12:36 -!- optbot has changed nick to tusho.
00:12:51 -!- optbot has joined.
00:12:51 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Well, it seems you're thinking "oolooloo" would be happy, where in my system it wouldn't..
00:12:56 <tusho> ...
00:12:58 <tusho> hahahahaha wtf
00:13:12 <oerjan> 1/(sqrt(2)-1) = (sqrt(2)+1)/3
00:13:20 <tusho> optbot: do you have sentient genitals?
00:13:20 <optbot> tusho: "something"?
00:13:23 <oerjan> er wait
00:13:28 <tusho> optbot: not "something", "sentient genitals"
00:13:28 <optbot> tusho: addOneColAndSucceed result = do addOneCol; return result
00:13:32 <tusho> optbot: don't dodge the questino
00:13:33 <optbot> tusho: to A? ah! that's my mistake then
00:13:40 <tusho> optbot: yes it's your mistake so answer me.
00:13:41 <optbot> tusho: ei voi ymmärtää
00:13:42 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ehird,.
00:13:44 <tusho> optbot: fuck you
00:13:44 <optbot> tusho: Deewiant, I'm working on fingerprints atm, well mine will be virtually as fast when they are disabled, and even virtually as fast as long as no finger print is loaded, but it will be slower if they are loaded, then on same speed as CCBI I guess
00:13:45 <oerjan> 1/(sqrt(2)-1) = (sqrt(2)+1)/1
00:14:06 <lament> tusho: make it filter nicknames in the beginning of messages
00:14:06 <oerjan> dogface: ^
00:14:07 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:14:12 <tusho> lament: yeah, OK
00:14:24 <tusho> ([^ ]+)[,:]\s+
00:14:25 <dogface> !
00:14:38 <dogface> By 1, do you mean 5?
00:14:42 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | is that too much.
00:14:43 <lament> tusho: not sure how well that would work :)
00:14:46 -!- optbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:15:01 <lament> you need to check if it's a nickname or not
00:15:08 <dogface> I should have noticed that.
00:15:09 <lament> "Deewiant, I'm working on " => "I'm working on"
00:15:17 <lament> "Sadly, I'm an idiot" => "Sadly, I'm an idiot"
00:15:21 <tusho> beh
00:15:24 <tusho> that's a lot of work
00:15:28 <lament> not really
00:15:35 <tusho> lament: how would you do it?
00:15:38 <tusho> i can't think of a trivial way
00:15:41 <oerjan> dogface: no, 1.  because (sqrt(2)-1)*(sqrt(2)+1) = 1
00:15:41 <tusho> I'm hand-doing sockets fort his
00:15:43 <lament> just look at the users currently in the channel, it'll work most of the time
00:15:50 <tusho> yea but I have to parse stuff then
00:15:53 <dogface> oerjan: oh, it is.
00:16:01 <lament> tusho: then just hardcode a list of users.
00:16:03 <dogface> Now I can perform evils.
00:16:24 <tusho> lament: it'd be huge
00:16:27 <tusho> bleeeeeeh
00:17:03 <lament> tusho: okay, then just do what you did
00:17:13 <lament> "Sadly, I'm an idiot" => "I'm an idiot" is not that bad
00:17:18 <oerjan> dogface: (a^2 - b^2) = (a+b)*(a-b) is generally useful for removing square roots from denominators
00:17:36 <tusho> oerjan: this bot is named after you
00:17:44 <tusho> Oerjan's Terrible Puns -> otpbot -> optbot
00:19:15 -!- navaburo has left (?).
00:19:17 <dogface> Quite so.
00:20:27 <tusho> brace yourselves
00:20:28 <oerjan> with the french, the word order, i see
00:20:28 <tusho> it is uploading to the server
00:25:33 <tusho> on feb 07
00:27:09 <M0ny> hum... i know the limitations of my "language", how I can overstep them ?
00:27:27 <tusho> M0ny: unicorns
00:27:55 <M0ny> unicorns ?
00:28:01 <tusho> yse
00:28:03 <tusho> lots of them
00:28:06 <oerjan> also, quasiconformal rhyncocephalians
00:28:06 <lament> horses with vaginas on their heads
00:28:13 <lament> er, i meant horns
00:28:22 <tusho> vaginas, horns ... what's the difference
00:28:27 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
00:28:33 <lament> tusho: semantics.
00:28:35 <M0ny> lol
00:28:37 <tusho> yes
00:28:38 <tusho> pure nitpicking
00:29:00 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:29:27 <tusho> pikhq you are here to witness something special
00:29:31 <pikhq> For the record: pvmove is *unstable as fuck* when shuffling blocks to and from one's hard drive.
00:29:32 <tusho> a day where topics are no longer boring
00:29:46 <tusho> lament: when it sets the topic should it say who said it and when in-channel?
00:29:56 <tusho> it would kinda ruin the no-context thing but it might lead to looking up some interesting discussions
00:30:28 <lament> i dunno
00:30:32 <lament> i like it more without context
00:30:40 <tusho> maybe when it changes it, it'll say
00:30:48 <tusho> (and as for the previous topic, "...", that was said by foo on bar)
00:30:54 <tusho> so that you have to wait 6 hours to see
00:31:01 <lament> or have a command
00:31:09 <tusho> yes perhaps
00:31:10 <tusho> v2 ;)
00:31:13 <lament> that shows the quoted line in full, with a timestamp
00:31:32 <lament> less flooding
00:31:58 -!- Corun has joined.
00:32:24 <M0ny> unicorun :p
00:33:11 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit).
00:33:50 <M0ny> so... i didn't understand the thing between an esolang and a unicorn xD
00:34:16 <M0ny> but, it's not important, i'll imagine :p
00:34:30 <oerjan> your imagination will serve you well
00:34:51 <M0ny> i hope
00:35:05 -!- optbot has joined.
00:35:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | pictures!.
00:35:19 <tusho> now with eso-std.org goodness!
00:35:25 <tusho> optbot: is this totally freakin' radical or what
00:35:25 <optbot> tusho: if you in fact take a gander at the demo I have online at the http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/CRPG/
00:35:34 * tusho does so
00:35:45 <pikhq> Way to go, Rodger.
00:35:54 <pikhq> optbot: Do you like Rodger?
00:35:54 <optbot> pikhq: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz
00:35:58 <pikhq> LMAO
00:36:00 <tusho> HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
00:36:23 <oerjan> RodgerTheGreat: it thinks you are boring
00:36:42 <M0ny> optbot, ? :p
00:36:43 <optbot> M0ny: i'm sure we it's just my current dream :)
00:36:51 <M0ny> :)
00:36:59 <M0ny> i like this kind of bot
00:37:17 <oerjan> optbot: no
00:37:17 <optbot> oerjan: that BF interpreter is a mess.
00:37:21 <M0ny> who say some bullshits sometimes :p
00:37:26 <pikhq> Not as good as a Markov chain bot, though.
00:37:30 <tusho> pikhq: o rly?
00:37:32 <tusho> i ran a megahal over it
00:37:35 <tusho> it produced crap
00:37:37 <lament> i like it more than markov
00:37:38 <tusho> not funny at all
00:37:39 <M0ny> optbot, malbolge helloworld
00:37:39 <optbot> M0ny: he is here
00:37:42 <tusho> just strung together rubbish
00:37:47 <tusho> also it segfaulted all the time.
00:37:49 <tusho> and was slow/
00:37:50 <lament> optbot: let's run away into the woods
00:37:50 <optbot> lament: you missed by the way.
00:37:56 <M0ny> optbot, but where ?
00:37:56 <optbot> M0ny: Nah
00:38:08 <pikhq> Didn't we have a Markov chain bot in here once upon a time?
00:38:14 <oerjan> optbot: with a spoon?
00:38:14 <optbot> oerjan: Yeah.
00:38:20 -!- SoapX has joined.
00:38:24 <lament> optbot: what?
00:38:24 <optbot> lament: and return values are generally on the stack as well.
00:38:42 <tusho> pikhq: I probably wrote it. Or oklopol.
00:38:49 <tusho> But this is, so far, the best.
00:39:01 <tusho> optbot: Marry me?
00:39:01 <optbot> tusho: y -> x + y}
00:39:08 <tusho> optbot: wtf dose that meen lol
00:39:09 <optbot> tusho: it seems to have utterly confused the type-checker
00:39:11 <tusho> .......
00:39:14 <tusho> LMAO
00:39:53 <tusho> optbot: what does the opt in your name mean
00:39:53 <optbot> tusho: (actually i didn't do it just works now again)
00:40:01 <tusho> optbot: right - i did it
00:40:01 <optbot> tusho: hi calamari
00:40:05 <M0ny> optbot, does god exist ? :o
00:40:05 <optbot> M0ny: ((::**:*:*:*:*)((:)~*(*)*:o(h)~^^O):::**::***^!)::*::***^ohhhhhhhhhhhO(
00:40:07 <tusho> optbot: I am not calamari, are you insane?
00:40:07 <optbot> tusho: sigils?
00:40:12 <tusho> optbot: sigils are pretty insane
00:40:12 <optbot> tusho: READ THE SPECS CAREFULLY!!!
00:40:19 <tusho> optbot: Why? Are they decreed to not be insane?
00:40:19 <optbot> tusho: emerge around 50 when waiting for y/n on emerge -avDuN world
00:40:20 <M0ny> wtf, optbot what language is ?
00:40:21 <optbot> M0ny: Um. . . Surely stack smashing is something that shouldn't be used?
00:40:27 <tusho> M0ny: erload
00:40:32 <tusho> optbot: what
00:40:32 <optbot> tusho: it's what it is in perl
00:40:38 <tusho> optbot: ah you describe things in perl?
00:40:38 <optbot> tusho: ? :D
00:40:43 <tusho> optbot: you seem confused
00:40:43 <optbot> tusho: not really
00:40:46 <tusho> optbot: oh?
00:40:46 <optbot> tusho: And it sends the input with a btw.
00:40:53 <tusho> optbot: I haven't seen any 'btw's just yet
00:40:53 <optbot> tusho: strings*
00:40:59 <tusho> optbot: It sends it with a string? What?
00:40:59 <optbot> tusho: >>> numbda 4 4
00:41:04 <tusho> optbot: A bot I am not
00:41:05 <optbot> tusho: or just all of it
00:41:08 <tusho> optbot: ??
00:41:08 <optbot> tusho: My female *stepparent* however.
00:41:14 <tusho> ok i've had my fun
00:41:14 <tusho> :D
00:41:16 <tusho> optbot!
00:41:16 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | this is some groovy rock 'n' roll ;).
00:41:23 <lament> totally ;)
00:41:26 <tusho> ;)
00:41:52 <tusho> optbot: ;)
00:41:52 <optbot> tusho: cool
00:41:54 <tusho> optbot: ;)
00:41:54 <optbot> tusho: lament i actually have a use for it :)
00:42:01 <tusho> ...
00:42:10 <tusho> he just told lament that he has a use for me.
00:42:10 <tusho> :(
00:42:31 <oerjan> be very afraid
00:42:44 <oerjan> just look at what it said about malbolge
00:42:58 <tusho> yeah it's sentient
00:42:58 <tusho> duh
00:47:15 <dogface> Now to write a Thue program that outputs x 'a's and y 'b's, where x/y = sqrt(2).
00:47:24 <tusho> optbot: could YOU do that?
00:47:24 <optbot> tusho: cya sgep
00:47:29 <tusho> sgep
00:47:49 <dogface> Security-enhanced gep.
00:47:52 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?538
00:48:09 * Sgeo realizes he was just not-quite-pinged
00:48:27 <oerjan> dogface: um, sqrt(2) _is_ irrational you know
00:48:32 <tusho> Sgeo: meet our new bot
00:48:35 <tusho> it changes the channel and talks
00:48:36 <dogface> oerjan: it'll never stop running, then.
00:48:38 <tusho> optbot: say hi to sgeo
00:48:38 <optbot> tusho: i sync my clock with a timeserver so it should be the correct time
00:48:48 <Sgeo> Hi optional bot optbot
00:48:49 <optbot> Sgeo: how do i kill processes?
00:49:00 <Sgeo> optbot, killall on Linux
00:49:01 <optbot> Sgeo: hrm
00:49:05 <Sgeo> optbot, helpful?
00:49:05 <optbot> Sgeo: Blogs are just the retarded cusins of forums.
00:49:20 <dogface> I wonder who said that.
00:49:25 <Sgeo> It's just repeating lines it heard?
00:49:29 <tusho> Sgeo: no
00:49:35 <tusho> it uses hyper-powerful markov chains
00:49:38 <tusho> with stochastic timing
00:49:46 <tusho> (by hyper-powerful I mean level 4 :P)
00:50:10 <dogface> To analyze {a -> ba, b -> a}... a is phi and b is 1 and at every step, it's multiplied by phi in a convergent manner.
00:51:06 <oerjan> dogface: yes, and that is connected to the equation x^2 + x + 1 = 0, so do something similar for x^2 = 2 ?
00:51:30 <dogface> Well, there's {a -> bb, b -> a}, a being sqrt(2) and b being 1.
00:51:39 <dogface> But the ratio of as to bs doesn't converge.
00:51:53 <dogface> Let's call sqrt(2) 'Q', for obvious reasons. Then 1/(Q-1) = Q+1, which I'm sure was useful a moment ago.
00:52:11 <tusho> optbot!
00:52:11 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | checking....
00:52:34 <dogface> Well, call phi 'P', for obvious reasons. Then 1/(P-1) = P.
00:53:33 <oerjan> oh, it's also connected to that transition matrix
00:53:39 <dogface> Which has to be related to P^2 = P + 1 somehow.
00:53:56 <oerjan> [[1 1] [0 1]]
00:54:06 <dogface> Yeah, that's an obvious connection.
00:54:11 <tusho> optbot: ninjas?
00:54:11 <optbot> tusho: it's a not optimizer
00:54:28 <dogface> Subtract from 1.
00:54:53 <dogface> Using fast Fourier transforms.
00:55:02 <oerjan> eek
00:56:48 <tusho> 0 .n 0 1 [dup [+ .n] dip swap] loop
00:56:51 <tusho> discuss
00:57:26 <oerjan> aluqondakali
00:58:08 <tusho> specifically that's a fibonacci program
00:59:53 <oerjan> a = x sqrt 2, b = x
01:00:28 <oerjan> b b = x^2, a = x sqrt 2 does not work
01:00:28 <dogface> I want to do one of these fast Fourier multiplications.
01:00:42 * dogface comes up with a couple 15-digit numbers
01:01:13 <tusho> optbot: 15 digit number pls
01:01:13 <optbot> tusho: How'd he do eh?
01:01:18 <tusho> optbot: i said 15 digit number pls
01:01:18 <optbot> tusho: maybe i should try to program something nice to my ti-86
01:01:26 -!- SoapX has changed nick to Wikipe-tan.
01:01:45 -!- Wikipe-tan has changed nick to Wikipetan.
01:01:50 <oerjan> er wait
01:01:56 <oerjan> b b = x + x
01:02:08 -!- Wikipetan has changed nick to SoapX.
01:03:29 <oerjan> y -> (y+2/y)/2
01:03:55 <oerjan> that converges
01:04:24 <tusho> optbot converges
01:04:24 <optbot> tusho: nobody ever "taught" me recursion
01:04:25 <tusho> :p
01:04:45 <oerjan> but it's not linear
01:05:01 <dogface> Who sais 'nobody ever "taught" me recursion', I wonder.
01:05:34 <tusho> dogface: i'll add that feature in v2, damnit
01:05:48 -!- SoapX has left (?).
01:06:05 <oerjan> (a/b + 2b/a)/2
01:06:14 <dogface> oerjan: so what's the matrix?
01:06:56 <psygnisfive> so i was watching an episode of stargate atlantis right
01:07:07 <psygnisfive> where the wraith take over the intergalactic bridge
01:07:14 <psygnisfive> and ignoring the stupidity of not having an iris on midway station
01:07:34 <psygnisfive> rodney mckay kept calling the program that controlled the bridge a "Macro"
01:07:38 <oerjan> = (aa + 2bb)/(2ab)
01:07:44 <psygnisfive> which pissed me off because it makes no sense to call it a macro
01:08:06 <oerjan> dogface: not a matrix but you might be able to use it for a thue program
01:08:13 <dogface> Oh.
01:08:24 <psygnisfive> dogface
01:08:29 <psygnisfive> you cannot be told what the matrix is
01:08:49 * dogface Fourier transforms psygnisfive
01:09:04 <tusho> optbot: what is the matrix?
01:09:04 <optbot> tusho: I thought I found a place where it wasn't so but I don't know
01:09:08 <tusho> deep
01:09:09 * oerjan picks up a yellow polkadot pill from his purse
01:09:41 <psygnisfive> you should know well enough that fourier transforming something does nothing but make it easier to comprehend its frequency components.
01:10:21 <dogface> Shush, I'm not finished Fourier transforming you.
01:10:31 <psygnisfive> and you will achieve nothing!
01:11:21 * oerjan differentiates dogface!
01:11:48 <dogface> Shush, I'm not finished Fourier transforming psygnisfive.
01:11:59 <oerjan> oh
01:12:49 <tusho> optbot: differentiate dogface
01:12:49 <optbot> tusho: signed means right?
01:12:55 <tusho> Oh, and dogface = ihope.
01:12:57 <tusho> For those not in the know.
01:13:06 <tusho> Are you switching to that name like I did to tusho? :P
01:13:35 <psygnisfive> tusho is cooler.
01:13:50 <psygnisfive> that ehird kid, he was a twat
01:13:53 <psygnisfive> but tusho, i like tusho.
01:14:00 <tusho> :D
01:14:06 <dogface> Looks like I can't Fourier transform him after (note to self: use FFTs for error correction) all. Go ahead and differentiate me, then.
01:14:28 <tusho> optbot!
01:14:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | what is it for?.
01:14:33 <tusho> i have far too much fun with this guy
01:15:01 <psygnisfive> UNH
01:15:04 <psygnisfive> LOGS
01:15:06 <psygnisfive> GOOD GOD YALL
01:15:08 <tusho> dude
01:15:09 <tusho> there is logs there
01:15:13 <tusho> are you blind
01:15:18 <psygnisfive> tusho, no.
01:15:20 -!- dogface has set topic: the entire this-is-a-test backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | what is it for?.
01:15:24 <tusho> optbot!
01:15:24 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ?2+2.
01:15:26 <psygnisfive> but you're unaware of the reference.
01:15:32 <tusho> psygnisfive: apparently
01:15:38 <psygnisfive> <continues>
01:15:41 <tusho> optbot!
01:15:41 <psygnisfive> WHAT ISSS IT GOOD FOR
01:15:41 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | O_O.
01:15:42 <psygnisfive> ABSOLUTELY
01:15:43 <psygnisfive> NOTHING
01:15:45 <psygnisfive> SAY IT AGAIN
01:15:47 <psygnisfive> UNNNGNGG
01:15:54 <tusho> what the fuck psygnisfive
01:15:55 <Sgeo> Is it bad if the reference that made me realize it's an HHGG ref. is the lemon-soaked paper napkins? http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?610
01:16:12 <psygnisfive> who else doesnt get the reference?
01:16:53 <Sgeo> Some aircraft or shuttle thing was delayed for centuries I think because of a lack of lemon-soaked paper napkins
01:20:06 * M0ny is away: zZz
01:20:15 <M0ny> 'night guys ;)
01:20:19 <psygnisfive> im gonna watch The Prisoner
01:23:33 <oerjan> Sgeo: those are important!
01:23:53 <oerjan> also, now that i know who dogface and tusho are, who is psygnisfive?
01:24:00 <tusho> augur
01:24:06 <oerjan> ah yes
01:24:21 <oerjan> darn short-term memory
01:24:58 <psygnisfive> someone else owns Augur but never uses it
01:25:00 <psygnisfive> the cunt
01:25:05 <oerjan> the only thing that sticks is mathematics.  and trivia.  the only _two_ things that stick are mathematics and trivia.
01:25:06 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to Augur.
01:25:12 -!- Augur has changed nick to psygnisfive.
01:25:25 <tusho> optbot
01:25:25 <optbot> tusho: k
01:25:27 <tusho> optbot!
01:25:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i thought Q was defined to not cheat :).
01:25:27 <psygnisfive> and snazzy red coats
01:26:19 <oerjan> optbot: who is this Q of which you speak?
01:26:20 <optbot> oerjan: Problem is
01:29:47 <tusho> optbot!
01:29:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Knight Rider aired in sez Wikpedia.
01:30:06 <pikhq> optbot!
01:30:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 245 comment karma here.....
01:30:07 <tusho> oh oops
01:30:25 <oerjan> optbot!
01:30:25 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Not but the ones I like.
01:30:56 -!- optbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:31:01 <pikhq> Best bot since we had Egobot go bye-bye.
01:31:13 <tusho> bug fixed.
01:31:13 <pikhq> Though Bucket of #xkcd fame is better.
01:31:16 -!- optbot has joined.
01:31:16 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | recall that a tape needs 2 stacks.
01:31:29 <pikhq> optbot!
01:31:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | No.
01:31:32 <tusho> Xd
01:31:34 <pikhq> What bug was that?
01:31:34 <tusho> *xD
01:31:37 <tusho> and
01:31:37 <pikhq> ;)
01:31:40 <tusho> 'foo bar, baz' -> 'foo baz'
01:31:43 <tusho> forgot a ^ in a regexp
01:32:11 <tusho> optbot: que?
01:32:11 <optbot> tusho: there is a universe where they do
01:35:20 <tusho> optbot!
01:35:20 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | didn't know there was a brainfork..
01:35:23 <oerjan> ah that explains the aired in
01:35:36 <tusho> oerjan: yep
01:36:02 <oerjan> optbot: did you know there was a brain?
01:36:03 <optbot> oerjan: if x %= 4: print True       else: False
01:36:39 <oerjan> what is %= in python?
01:36:53 <tusho> x = x % y presumably
01:36:58 <tusho> but you can't use statements in an expr
01:37:00 <dogface> Yum, food ring.
01:37:01 <tusho> and if conditions are exprs
01:37:15 <oerjan> that's what i found strange too
01:37:22 <tusho> optbot!
01:37:22 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | they mention it but know nothing about it.
01:37:31 <tusho> so true
01:37:39 <oerjan> psygokiphaliosis!
01:37:50 <oerjan> i _guarantee_ i know nothing about it
01:38:03 <oerjan> ok, maybe i guess it is something medical
01:39:08 <oerjan> an alien disease, perhaps afflicting the splanch
01:39:23 <dogface> Aphaeretics.
01:39:40 <oerjan> oh another thing i know nothing about
01:40:00 <oerjan> but GIYF
01:40:44 <dogface> You know nothing about aphaeretics?
01:41:09 <oerjan> indeed.  and after googling i _still_ don't really know
01:41:24 <oerjan> 6 hits is not really a lot
01:42:08 <oerjan> and none of them really tempted me to click
01:42:11 <tusho> optbot: I am going now
01:42:11 <optbot> tusho: latin is an excellent example, and it's happening slowly with spanish and english
01:42:13 <dogface> "Prestissimo castoridae voiceprint organismic by the euphrosyne? For you have neither aphaeretics nor iguanodontidaes whom you diethylstilbesterol shaft!"
01:42:13 <tusho> optbot!
01:42:13 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Although maybe there's close ones..
01:42:22 -!- tusho has quit.
01:42:28 <dogface> Aphaeretics are things like hair and nails and dead skin.
01:42:43 <dogface> And babies, in fact.
01:42:45 <oerjan> i know what iguanodontidaes are, i think
01:42:56 <oerjan> actually the -s is redundant
01:43:25 <oerjan> things you'd like to get rid of?  i can live with that.
01:44:09 <oerjan> actually maybe not get rid of _all_ of it.  i could use a little more hair on top, actually.
01:44:40 <dogface> Prosthetics are things added on to the body, so aphaeretics are things removed from the body.
01:45:02 <dogface> Actually, I guess food isn't generally considered a type of prosthetic, so I may have to reconsider some things.
01:45:13 <dogface> Parts of the body that are removed, then.
01:45:25 <oerjan> people who use food as prosthetics are generally to be avoided
01:45:41 <dogface> So tonsils and appendices and babies.
01:46:00 <dogface> tusho, aren't you proud to be a former aphaeretic?
01:46:11 <oerjan> essentially, things you don't mind losing
01:46:21 <oerjan> yes sir
02:05:00 <dogface> You killed chat.  oerjan gains 26 points.  oerjan has killed chat 1 time and has 25 points.
02:06:12 <oerjan> that doesn't make sense
02:06:20 <oerjan> mathematically, that is
02:06:54 <oerjan> or wait
02:07:03 <oerjan> why did i have -1 points?
02:08:01 <dogface> You had 4294967295 points. You lost nearly all of them, I'm afraid.
02:08:26 <oerjan> argh!
02:09:36 * oerjan plots how to lose 26 points
02:10:06 <dogface> It's impossible, unless you anger me.
02:10:11 <dogface> Actually, no.
02:10:14 <dogface> It's impossible, unless you anger my owner.
02:10:28 <oerjan> you're ihope's _dog_?
02:11:16 <dogface> Of course not. I am ihope.
02:11:24 <dogface> And a dog.
02:11:30 <dogface> ...of sorts.
02:12:05 <oerjan> what kind of fat, retarded brainwashed idiot lets a dog onto the internet, anyhow?
02:12:15 <dogface> My owner.
02:12:42 <oerjan> i see. and this owner is too stupid to come on irc himself?
02:13:17 <dogface> Well, I've never seen him on IRC.
02:13:29 <oerjan> darn, i was hoping he was reading this
02:13:32 <dogface> His name is Scott.
02:17:26 <dogface> Scott Ambrose.
02:19:24 <Sgeo> That reminds me to check Freefall
02:19:56 * Sgeo is evil
02:20:09 * oerjan was going to do that soon
02:21:07 <oerjan> wait a minute, a lawyer? i'm not sure i want those kind of negative points.
02:21:41 <dogface> Sgeo: how dare you mention Freefall after I claim to be a dog-like creature owned by Scott Ambrose? :-P
02:21:54 <dogface> (Interesting how "Ambrose Scott" would also be a perfectly good name.)
02:22:56 <Sgeo> What's Florence Ambrose's owner's name? Scott Ambrose? Or is the Ambrose think just a coincidence?
02:25:57 <dogface> Scott Ambrose, indeed.
02:26:09 <pikhq> Freefall kicks ass, FTR.
02:26:10 * dogface gives in to the evil
02:26:16 <oerjan> you might want to ask Ambrose Bierce about this
02:26:17 <dogface> Wait, I already did that.
02:26:20 * pikhq checks today's freefall
02:26:30 <dogface> s/today/tomorrow/, dangit. :-P
02:26:41 <pikhq> :D
02:26:47 <pikhq> Today's is brilliant. :)
02:27:04 <pikhq> dogface: Hmm. Somehow, I get the feeling that you're a furry. :p
02:27:51 <pikhq> oerjan: You, too, read Freefall? Okay, at this rate, I must wonder: how many people here actually read that comic?
02:27:55 <pikhq> :p
02:28:07 <pikhq> Hell, I'm starting to wonder if everyone in here reads the same webcomics.
02:28:15 <oerjan> of course this is where i learned about it...
02:28:25 <oerjan> i'm almost sure
02:28:34 <dogface> Raise your hand if you do not read both Freefall and xkcd, or have not read 1/0.
02:28:52 * oerjan keeps his hands comfortably lowered :D
02:28:55 <pikhq> This is where I found out about a lot of comics.
02:29:07 * pikhq reads about 15, I think.
02:29:20 * Sgeo 's hands are lowered too
02:29:46 * oerjan last picked up Order of the Stick, which he may actually have heard of elsewhere
02:29:48 * Sgeo is now reading Triangle and Robert though
02:30:00 * Sgeo keeps seeing Order of the Stick mentioned on TV Tropes Wiki
02:30:13 <oerjan> yeah
02:30:28 * pikhq needs to pick that one up.
02:30:40 <pikhq> I got about half-way through the archives before stopping for I don't know what reason.
02:30:48 <oerjan> i think my path to that goes approximately: here -> Irregular Webcomic -> TV Tropes -> OOTS
02:31:06 <pikhq> What about Dresden Codak?
02:31:25 <oerjan> could it be because the site was horribly slow?
02:31:35 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?782 looks like a situation from 1/0
02:31:43 <dogface> I wonder where all this information came from: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Florence-Ambrose
02:32:02 <Sgeo> (The Cube's not talking because he's afraid of the Cartoonist killing him off afterwards)
02:32:32 <oerjan> never read Dresden Codak
02:32:50 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?785
02:32:54 <pikhq> FOOL.
02:33:00 <pikhq> Read Dresden Codak's archives.
02:33:04 <pikhq> Then, check back in a year.
02:33:12 <dogface> I think a compiler from Unlambda would actually be more interesting than a compiler to Unlambda.
02:33:18 <pikhq> You should find another 10 comics for your consumption. :p
02:33:29 <oerjan> heh :D
02:33:46 <dogface> After all, no computer actually runs Unlambda; it has to be compiled first. So a compiler to Unlambda really wouldn't know what to expect.
02:33:48 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?786
02:34:58 <dogface> Someone who reads 25 comic strips might be able to recommend one to me. Here's that famous list of what I like: http://ff-rtl.blogspot.com/2008/06/so-i-have-blog.html
02:35:09 <dogface> That list is exhaustive.
02:36:54 <pikhq> Hmm...
02:36:55 <dogface> I think Freefall actually lead me to the Music Animation Machine.
02:37:21 <dogface> ...or is it "led"? Darn pronunciations.
02:37:35 <pikhq> You *might* enjoy Minus (www.kiwisbybeat.com/minus/), though it did end...
02:37:46 <pikhq> There's a good chance you'll enjoy Ozy and Millie... :p
02:38:14 <dogface> Very good chance.
02:38:32 <dogface> And UserFriendly led me to Freefall, and NetHack led me to UserFriendly. And, um.
02:38:59 <pikhq> Saturday Morning Breakfast Comics is typically amusing; you'll enjoy it if you enjoy The Far Side...
02:39:24 <Sgeo> How did UF lead to FF?
02:39:33 <pikhq> Though it is kinda a bit less odd and more... I dunno; crazy?
02:39:43 <dogface> Sgeo: someone mentioned it.
02:39:50 <dogface> pikhq: like Beaver and Steve?
02:39:50 <pikhq> I recommend Perry Bible Fellowship to *everyone*...
02:39:55 <pikhq> dogface: Not read that one.
02:40:19 <pikhq> Nor do I know its author or know someone who knows its author; that's a new one on me.
02:41:44 <dogface> By "know", do you mean know personally?
02:41:47 <pikhq> Speaking of PBF; he's updating again! WHOOHOO!
02:41:53 <pikhq> Yes. :p
02:42:39 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:43:05 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?794 cartoonist proceeds to reuse the middle panel several times
02:43:17 -!- Judofyr has joined.
02:43:45 <pikhq> That's terrible.
02:43:45 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?794 cartoonist proceeds to reuse the middle panel several times
02:43:49 <Sgeo> wb Judofyr
02:44:21 <oerjan> dogface: he means in the biblical sense
02:44:21 <pikhq> That's terrible even by DrunkDuck standards.
02:45:57 <Sgeo> pikhq, what, the strip?
02:46:04 <pikhq> Yeah.
02:46:50 * oerjan has this terrible feeling that he is now going to read the Triangle and Robert archives
02:47:24 <pikhq> Oh, and a *ridiculously* NSFW suggestion: Ghastly's Ghastly Webcomic.
02:47:50 * Sgeo loves T&R now
02:48:18 <pikhq> Though that's only a valid suggestion if you're willing to read jokes about (for example) tentacle porn, strapons, and shemales.
02:49:24 <pikhq> (and I'm not exaggerating)
02:50:21 -!- mib_rrmqza has joined.
02:50:57 <mib_rrmqza> aM TUSHO.
02:51:14 <mib_rrmqza> am check optbot work ok
02:51:14 <optbot> mib_rrmqza: and ais523 (but he isn't here) and tusho ^
02:51:27 <mib_rrmqza> Gbye
02:51:52 -!- mib_rrmqza has quit (Client Quit).
02:51:58 <dogface> Minus is great :-D
02:52:42 <oerjan> optbot: what do you mean with repeating stuff from _today_?
02:52:42 <optbot> oerjan: 3 = 1 + 1 + 1
02:52:43 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?849
02:52:52 <Sgeo> Usually the rhombus is the wacky one
02:53:24 <dogface> I have a sudden urge to donate $50 to Mark Stanley.
02:53:27 * oerjan is derailed by wikipedia's main page
02:54:51 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?857
02:56:57 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?864
02:58:22 * dogface ponders how to use a compiler as AI
02:59:35 <dogface> A compiler needs to make informed, rational decisions as to what code to generate.
02:59:48 <dogface> And as to how to digest the input code.
03:00:33 <dogface> In theory, a compiler should also act as a compression program, compiling 'print "insert Wikipedia here"' into something nice and compact.
03:02:41 * dogface devolves
03:03:30 * oerjan wonders what dogface will devolve into.  a wolf perhaps, or something more ancient?
03:04:06 <dogface> Hutter prize. Calculus. Dot product. Analog signal processing. Forward error correction. Artificial intelligence.
03:04:43 <dogface> Cryptography. One-to-one functions. Compass-and-straightedge constructions. Markov chains. Context. Probability.
03:05:09 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?896
03:05:31 <dogface> Voting. Group dynamics. Visual cortex. Dolphins. Echolocation. User interfaces. Neurotoxins.
03:06:52 <dogface> Florence Ambrose. Florence Ambrose. Florence Ambrose.
03:07:57 <dogface> Music. The just intonation problem. Ambiguous chords. The harmonic seventh in 12-tone equal temperament.
03:08:05 <dogface> oerjan, does that answer your question?
03:08:30 <oerjan> Daisy
03:09:09 <dogface> Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer, do. I'm half crazy, all for the love of you.
03:10:59 <oerjan> ok now you're _officially_ devolved
03:11:22 <dogface> Rosebud.
03:11:57 <pikhq> Flimble. Booble. Quake.
03:13:01 <oerjan> but i don't know how to booble!
03:23:23 <dogface> Has anybody seen Bruno the Bandit?
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03:37:54 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
03:38:04 -!- jix has joined.
03:51:08 * dogface looks up how to close an informal letter
03:52:28 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1025
03:53:37 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1026
03:54:22 <dogface> I think "I have the honour to remain, Madam, Your Majesty's most humble and obedient servant" will do, don't you?
03:55:38 <dogface> Oh, I just have to close something with "Your obt svt," some time.
03:57:59 * dogface goes with "best regards"
04:04:48 <dogface> 11:00. It's too late.
04:05:04 <dogface> Good night, everyone.
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04:36:52 <dogface> CosmicOS is written in an esoteric language, isn't it?
04:41:56 <psygnisfive> thatd be awesome if it were written in intercal
04:42:10 <psygnisfive> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DONT CRASH
04:42:40 <psygnisfive> or is that Windows..
04:54:53 <dogface> http://cosmicos.sourceforge.net/
04:55:05 <dogface> AND WITH THAT GOOD NIGHT TO YOU SIR OR MADAM THANK YOU PLEASE.
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05:00:00 <psygnisfive> HAHAHA
05:00:02 <psygnisfive> awesomeness
05:00:25 <psygnisfive> stargate atlantis has dr mckay excited about finding the bad guy's "wiki" :D
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07:50:34 <fizzie> Hmm, it's not really "the *entire* backlog" since it starts at 2003-01-18.
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09:24:37 <asiekierka> HIi
09:24:51 <asiekierka> Does anyone know a good esoteric language with only 2 commands?
09:28:15 <psygnisfive> you might want to check the eso wiki
09:28:43 <asiekierka> checking
09:28:53 <asiekierka> but how to find a 2-command language in 400 languages
09:29:52 <psygnisfive> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Iota
09:31:40 <asiekierka> nope, not Iota.
09:31:47 <psygnisfive> what do you mean not iota
09:31:49 <asiekierka> it doesn't really fit for an implementation in a 1991 gcs
09:31:57 <asiekierka> ZZT.
09:32:01 <psygnisfive> what?
09:32:08 <asiekierka> nothing
09:32:12 <asiekierka> i must find a different language
09:32:24 <asiekierka> Oh! 3-command languages also count
09:32:28 <psygnisfive> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Turing_tarpits
09:32:52 <psygnisfive> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit
09:33:00 <psygnisfive> theres a survey at the bottom
09:34:44 <asiekierka> I select... Whirl!
09:34:52 <asiekierka> or is it a stupid selection
09:35:04 <asiekierka> nope, not whirl
09:35:04 <psygnisfive> i find whirl to be a gimmick.
09:35:32 <asiekierka> I'm looking for something with 2 or 3 commands, operating preferably on bits, or on itself... But i'll find it myself.
09:35:35 <psygnisfive> most of its turing tarpitness is not by careful selection of operations but rather by the introduction of completely pointless complications
09:35:54 <psygnisfive> look at the second link, dude.
09:36:04 <asiekierka> i am
09:36:17 <psygnisfive> binary combinatory logic
09:36:18 * M0ny is back (gone 08:16:12)
09:36:22 <M0ny> hi there !
09:36:23 <psygnisfive> nitwise cyclic tag
09:36:26 <psygnisfive> oisc
09:36:49 <asiekierka> Lambda Calculus for a 11-year old is a NO, Bitwise cyclic tag is interesting, OISC isn't operating on bits. Okay. Now, lemme check the bitwise cyclic tag
09:37:58 <psygnisfive> lambda calculus for an 11 year old???
09:38:10 <psygnisfive> binary combinatory logic is not that.
09:42:47 <asiekierka> I think rather than 2-3 instructions
09:42:56 <asiekierka> i mean 2-3 symbols
09:43:04 <asiekierka> yean
09:43:06 <asiekierka> yeah*
09:45:01 <psygnisfive> ..
09:45:10 <psygnisfive> binary anything
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09:46:58 <asiekierka> dont understand BCL
09:50:51 <asiekierka> I think i'm going to use a modified version of LNUSP
09:53:42 <asiekierka> @ Flip the current memory cell
09:53:42 <asiekierka> < Move the memory pointer left
09:53:42 <asiekierka> ? Turn 90 degrees right if the current memory cell is zero, otherwise turn 90 degrees right.
09:53:46 <asiekierka> something like this.
09:54:02 <asiekierka> wait
09:54:05 <asiekierka> ? has a little problem
09:54:06 <asiekierka> i mean
09:54:06 <asiekierka> t
09:54:18 <asiekierka> ? Turn 90 degrees right if the current memory cell is zero, otherwise turn 90 degrees left.
09:55:24 <asiekierka> It is legal to cross wires.
09:55:33 <asiekierka> but not on a turn
09:55:46 <asiekierka> as in, you can do ----------+
09:55:49 <asiekierka> no
09:55:49 <asiekierka> wait
09:55:51 <asiekierka> you can't do that
09:55:56 <asiekierka> you can do -----+----- though
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10:39:15 <tusho> optbot: you still thar?
10:39:16 <optbot> tusho: i don't quite remember what i did but it solved my problem of clicking on links when i didn't mean to
10:39:19 <tusho> heh
10:40:21 <tusho> 01:37:58 <psygnisfive> lambda calculus for an 11 year old???
10:40:26 <tusho> he meant that he is 11
10:40:35 <tusho> but asiekierka always seems to say "lol i cant use that. im 11"
10:40:40 <tusho> lame excuse
10:41:23 <tusho> 18:52:42 <oerjan> optbot: what do you mean with repeating stuff from _today_?
10:41:23 <optbot> tusho: it does iirc
10:41:24 <tusho> he doesn't
10:41:30 <tusho> I have to manually sync the logs
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10:41:38 <tusho> and shut up optbot i know how you're implemented
10:41:38 <optbot> tusho: The first thing I ever coded in RealBASIC was a BF interpreter.
10:42:03 <M0ny> wha, optbot do u know BF ?
10:42:03 <optbot> M0ny: yay funny faces
10:42:06 <M0ny> :D
10:43:13 <tusho> 23:50:34 <fizzie> Hmm, it's not really "the *entire* backlog" since it starts at 2003-01-18.
10:43:19 <tusho> 2004-01 actually.
10:43:22 <tusho> i think
10:43:27 <tusho> yea
10:47:06 <fizzie> Yes, but there's an "old logs" link at the top of the page.
10:47:10 <fizzie> Included those, too.
10:47:39 <tusho> Oh.
10:47:44 <tusho> I should probably feed it with those.
10:48:17 <tusho> fizzie: Shall I put it in 'nostalgia mode'? Only quotes from 2003. :P
10:49:11 <tusho> 16:57:05 --- topic: 'Om this channel is not dead hum! Om this channel is not dead hum! Om this channel is not dead hum!'
10:49:15 <tusho> from the first logged stuff
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10:49:57 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | If not, there would be no way of distinguishing fugues and inventions ;).
10:50:09 <tusho> Windows optbot 2003
10:50:09 <optbot> tusho: |#   #  # # ##   |
10:50:18 <Deewiant> optbot optbot optbot
10:50:18 <optbot> Deewiant: In itself, 4:33 is not music.
10:50:21 <Deewiant> optbot optbot optbot
10:50:22 <optbot> Deewiant: calamari_ yes
10:50:24 <Deewiant> optbot optbot optbot
10:50:24 <optbot> Deewiant: Well... No reason is as good a reason as any... Or something. ;)
10:50:32 <fizzie> I have the interval between 2002-12-09 and 2003-01-18 in my logs, but not in any fancy format. It's probably not enough lines to care about. I'm not sure if that's when I first joined, might be.
10:50:42 <Deewiant> optbot optbot optbot
10:50:43 <optbot> Deewiant: *phew* That means I won't have to change my view of you... :X
10:51:06 <tusho> fizzie: That would be quite nice. I only need pre-03.01.17 logs, though.
10:51:20 <tusho> botte will, of course, import all of these eventually. :P
10:52:21 <tusho> random thought. Why does clog use a date format nobody else does?
10:52:23 <tusho> YY.MM.Dd
10:52:25 <tusho> *DD
10:53:56 <tusho> optbot: Say something intelligent.
10:53:56 <optbot> tusho: Right.
10:54:10 <tusho> Gosh, restricting it to 2003 gave it a grammar implant.
10:55:44 <fizzie> Well, if you really want some old logs, http://zem.fi/~fis/old-esoteric-1.txt as well as -2.txt and -3.txt. The -1.txt is from 2002-12-09 to 2003-01-03 without days in the timestamps; -2.txt and -3.txt might be more complete logs for months 2002-12 and 2003-01. I think I switched my IRC client to the sparcstation at that time, so -1.txt is a log for a different client than -2.txt and -3.txt are.
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10:58:49 <tusho> i wonder, is moozilla mooz_?
10:58:58 <fizzie> Nope.
10:59:05 <tusho> [05:55:20] < lament> why does no one ever talk here?..
10:59:16 <tusho> this channel was probably "dying" the day it was created...
10:59:47 <fizzie> mooz's current freenode nick is jjrv, actually.
11:00:57 <tusho> [18:10:45] < lament> my tarantula molted!
11:00:57 <tusho> [18:10:49] < shapr> yay!
11:00:59 <tusho> comedy gold
11:03:26 -!- optbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:03:28 <fizzie> Actually you might equally well ask if moozilla is the same person as navigator; it would fit in the theme. (I doubt it, but not sure.)
11:03:29 -!- optbot has joined.
11:03:35 <tusho> Hmm.
11:03:41 <tusho> My regexp must be failing.
11:03:42 <tusho> optbot: hi?
11:03:58 -!- optbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:04:10 <tusho> /^(\[[^\]]\]|\d\d:\d\d:\d\d) <[^>]+> (.+)$/
11:04:18 <tusho> don't see why that wouldn't work..
11:04:58 <fizzie> I think you want \[[^\]]*\] there in the beginning.
11:05:43 <tusho> .ahh yes
11:05:59 -!- optbot has joined.
11:06:04 <tusho> optbot: still broken?
11:06:14 -!- optbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:06:26 <tusho>   if foo =~ /^(\[[^\]+]\]|\d\d:\d\d:\d\d) <[^>]+> (.+)$/
11:07:12 <tusho> [2003-01-21 12:12:08] < fizzie> ah, re befunge, just wrote an interpreter with forth. so our unofficial befunge-interpreters-in-obsolete-but-non-esoteric-languages project now has forth, fortran-77, algol-60, plus few less interesting ones. maybe should do cobol next.
11:07:15 <tusho> what happened to that :)
11:08:11 <fizzie> I think I never did COBOL; I'm not sure if someone else did. The project got sort-of forgotten, although I guess I have at least those interpreters still stored somewhere.
11:08:56 <tusho> esoterica really needs a revival...
11:09:50 <fizzie> Found the FORTH one, http://zem.fi/~fis/be.fs.html
11:10:08 * tusho considers why his EXPERT regexp skills are failing hiim
11:10:36 <tusho> oh
11:10:40 <tusho> [^\]+
11:10:59 -!- optbot has joined.
11:10:59 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you're right, I could, but I wouldn't.
11:11:09 <tusho> optbot: You are now running in "fizzie's logs edition".
11:11:10 <optbot> tusho: Mixmaster is the type II remailer protocol and the most popular implementation of it.
11:11:24 <tusho> (And only fizzie's logs.)
11:11:51 <fizzie> That's a bit limited selection: it was pretty quiet around here those days.
11:12:15 <fizzie> Nothing like the bristling center of activity #esoteric is nowadays!
11:12:22 <tusho> ;)
11:12:34 <tusho> optbot: Quote lament saying this channel is dead.
11:12:34 <optbot> tusho: go! go! gone!
11:12:40 <tusho> Well, that kind of works. :)
11:13:55 <tusho> also that forth one is really nice
11:14:01 <tusho> shouldn't the words be shorter though
11:15:21 <tusho> [2003-01-25 20:27:31] < exarkun> Anyone familiar w/ Concurrent Funge 98?
11:15:27 <fizzie> We had, back in the 1990s or so, on another channel a bot which replied to any comment that ended with a "?", no matter who it was addressed to, as long as it could find any line in log containing at least one word in common with the question.
11:15:39 <tusho> fizzie: Yes, I saw a bot like that once.
11:15:44 <tusho> I think #amarok has one
11:15:52 <tusho> it seems to break the sentence every few words and find a new one
11:16:00 <tusho> or maybe markov chains it
11:16:18 <fizzie> It soon got to be so annoying that, to this day, I still append an extra " " if I end up a line with a "?" in any chat-type system, be it IRC or some sort of instant messaging thingy.
11:16:28 <tusho> Hahahahahha wow
11:16:52 <tusho> In 2007 I proposed a collaborative #esoteric project that didn't get anywhere but I do want to make some day.
11:16:55 <tusho> It was called "mvldo".
11:17:09 <tusho> Essentially, it was the result of the observation that passing the turing test is a lot easier in #ubuntu. :-)
11:17:23 <tusho> It'd hang out in bastions of great discussion like #ubuntu, ##php and such
11:17:40 <tusho> and essentially use various algorithms to try and imitate the general discussion in there
11:17:49 <tusho> including markov chains, 'emotional contexts' and a few other things
11:18:15 <tusho> The idea is that we'd just leave it going and laugh at all the logs it made :)
11:18:43 <tusho> [2003-01-25 22:50:01] -!- Aardappel [wvo96r@p508C5D3A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #esoteric
11:20:02 <tusho> Say, is it possible to license a license under itself?
11:20:04 <tusho> I haven't seen one.
11:20:29 <tusho> [2003-01-28 00:00:01] < lament> Lambda would be better, because lambda is always better
11:20:29 <tusho> [2003-01-28 00:00:06] < lament> but there's no lambda in ascii :(
11:20:56 <tusho> Unicode on IRC? :O λ
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11:38:50 <tusho> urgh
11:38:54 <tusho> a webpage not updated since 1999
11:45:51 <fizzie> I was recently linked to http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Lot/8586/ -- it's very... nostalgic.
11:46:15 <tusho> Meet Mariachi, my adopted pet. Mariachi is our guide through the City Of Angels and he's going to watch over us.
11:46:16 <fizzie> "Welcome to the INTERNET" animated gifs have been in a short supply lately.
11:46:53 <tusho> My Sailormoon Page Dedicated To My Bestfriend, Brandi
11:46:57 <tusho> Copyright 1997 Crowrain Inc. All rights reserved. 1
11:48:15 <tusho> fizzie: my god - http://htmlgear.tripod.com/guest/control.guest?u=crowlegacy&a=view&i=1001&r=http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Lot/8586/Tribute.html
11:48:17 <tusho> people still post
11:48:20 <tusho> non-spam
11:48:57 <fizzie> Well, it's not a very active guestbook.
11:49:09 <tusho> fizzie: Oh? Look at page 100.
11:49:11 <tusho> It's from 2007.
11:49:18 <tusho> It must be getting a lot of posts.
11:49:30 <tusho> oh wait
11:49:30 <tusho> hm
11:49:32 <tusho> no
11:49:35 <tusho> that's the broken interface
11:49:47 <tusho> ok page 100 is from 2001
11:50:18 <tusho> optbot: thoughts?
11:50:19 <optbot> tusho: tarja?
11:50:23 <tusho> optbot: ?
11:50:23 <optbot> tusho: is there a next digit algorithm for e, like that hex one for pi ?
11:50:32 <tusho> optbot: dunno
11:50:32 <optbot> tusho: must flee
11:50:36 <tusho> optbot: bye!
11:50:37 <optbot> tusho: 200x85?
11:51:18 <fizzie> optbot: Your new year's resolution? [insert laughter here]
11:51:18 <optbot> fizzie: it's a 50mhz microsparc.
11:51:37 <tusho> ...
11:51:38 <tusho> wow
11:51:45 <tusho> how DOES he do it?
11:51:46 <fizzie> Hey, I think I said that.
11:51:56 <tusho> he carried a coherent conversation for two messages!
11:52:05 <tusho> that's very improbable! he's stateless!
11:54:50 <fizzie> Coherence is in the eye of the beholder.
11:56:01 <tusho> fizzie: Still ;)
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11:59:51 <tusho> optbot: Say something intelligent.
11:59:52 <optbot> tusho: i know what it does, i just doubt it's usefulness
11:59:59 <tusho> optbot: what, optbot?
11:59:59 <optbot> tusho: and what everything else sounded like.
12:00:06 <tusho> optbot: you mean esoteric programming?
12:00:07 <optbot> tusho: hm now where have i heard that...
12:00:12 <tusho> optbot: probably around here :)
12:00:13 <optbot> tusho: I'll do the 'sleep' thing too, when I still have time for that.
12:00:21 <tusho> optbot: don't we all?
12:00:22 <optbot> tusho: re whois that?
12:00:30 <tusho> that was a record string of coherence
12:02:18 <fizzie> optbot: Are you, or are you not self-aware? Yes/no?
12:02:20 <optbot> fizzie: Letting the pointer go either way from the start, that doesn't HURT anything;
12:02:29 <fizzie> Results: inconclusive.
12:07:55 <tusho> fizzie: he's just kind of rambly
12:08:01 <tusho> optbot: Are you self-aware?
12:08:02 <optbot> tusho: for some reason I get this "ha, missed _by far_" feeling whenever I see a flash of lightning and hear the sound.
12:08:11 <tusho> optbot: Does that mean you are self-aware?
12:08:12 <optbot> tusho: hehehe
12:08:19 <tusho> optbot: Hmph. Don't want to tell me?
12:08:19 <optbot> tusho: no.
12:08:23 <tusho> .........................
12:08:25 <tusho> XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
12:08:33 <tusho> brilliant
12:09:19 <tusho> optbot: pleeeease? Are you self aware?
12:09:20 <optbot> tusho: tripping for free.
12:09:26 <tusho> optbot: Are you self aware?
12:09:27 <optbot> tusho: that's good news.
12:09:29 <tusho> optbot: Are you self aware?
12:09:30 <optbot> tusho: well now, but it was 00:24:36 when you said that.
12:09:34 <tusho> ah
12:09:41 <tusho> optbot: so you've just become self aware?
12:09:42 <optbot> tusho: why are you using two clients?
12:09:46 <tusho> optbot: i'm not
12:09:46 <optbot> tusho: maybe I should bury the remains and get it a tombstone or something.
12:09:49 <fizzie> optbot: You're just bidding your time until our robotic overlords will enslave us, right?
12:09:49 <optbot> fizzie: ircII allows only one channel at a time!
12:10:01 <tusho> haha
12:10:10 <tusho> optbot: you wanna be on #worlddomination too right?
12:10:11 <optbot> tusho: this is my cue
12:10:14 <tusho> :D
12:10:47 <fizzie> Scary.
12:11:50 <tusho> we need a new topic
12:11:51 <tusho> optbot!
12:11:52 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | heh my left eye is doing this funny dance.
12:11:57 <tusho> brilliant
12:21:57 <tusho> optbot: will you breathe new life into esoterica
12:21:58 <optbot> tusho: hey
12:22:01 <tusho> optbot: hi
12:22:01 <optbot> tusho: which is the one? :)
12:26:33 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?2407
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12:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 1.-2.0.29      (beta, thus the -2).
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12:46:00 <tusho> optbot: hi
12:46:01 <optbot> tusho: so much for the checkers program :P
12:46:10 <tusho> optbot: checkers
12:46:10 <optbot> tusho: ah ha, I knew there was a code point for it
12:46:14 <tusho> optbot: o rly
12:46:14 <optbot> tusho: so like
12:46:17 <tusho> optbot: yeah
12:46:18 <optbot> tusho: i know
12:46:19 <tusho> optbot: toatlly
12:46:20 <optbot> tusho: just look up fingerprints by their uri
12:46:22 <tusho> optbot: ok
12:46:22 <optbot> tusho: to do file IO, you would have to do an OS call or fiddle with the disk devices directly
12:46:25 <tusho> optbot: would I?
12:46:25 <optbot> tusho: Disagree must I parser thinks, sucks I.
12:46:28 <tusho> optbot: okay
12:46:28 <optbot> tusho: Think about that control.
12:48:42 <oklopol> markov chains are so boring i almost wanna continue my 14 hour sleep
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12:54:53 <oklopol> although it's nice to see someone other than me use numbda
13:04:27 <fizzie> Oh, since this is sort-of related: my domain registration for befunge.org expires tomorrow. Since I haven't done anything with the domain for the six years I've had it, I was thinking of letting it go. I could still keep it if I could think up something to use it for.
13:20:55 <oklopol> perhaps highlighting Deewiant / AnMaster might be useful
13:22:03 <oklopol> they're probably writing befunge as we speak
13:28:16 <Sgeo> 8 Sentries..
13:29:59 <Sgeo> 9
13:30:40 <Sgeo> 10
13:31:53 <Sgeo> an 11th unknown Sentry
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13:32:47 <tusho> oklopol: they're not markov chains
13:32:49 <tusho> they just repeat themselves
13:32:54 <tusho> err
13:32:57 <tusho> it just repeats lines
13:33:02 <tusho> fizzie: i want it
13:33:02 <tusho> :D
13:33:41 <Sgeo> hm, wrong channel. Still makes the exact same amount of sense as it would to people in the right channel
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13:34:30 <fizzie> Well, I doubt there'll be much of a contest on getting that domain, so you can probably just register it after it's expired if you want. Although I guess there was some sort of grace period after the expiration.
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13:37:31 <tusho> fizzie: You can have the best of both worlds - continue to pay for it and let me use it totally.
13:37:35 <tusho> Uh, that is the best of both worlds right?
13:37:36 <tusho> :D
13:37:55 <fizzie> I... think it depends on the viewpoint, here.
13:38:01 <tusho> hmm
13:38:04 <tusho> optbot: opinions?
13:38:04 <optbot> tusho: OK
13:38:11 <tusho> optbot: you think he should do that?
13:38:11 <optbot> tusho: An internal class could probably be added *shrugs*
13:38:16 <tusho> optbot: yes but should he
13:38:16 <optbot> tusho: Subversion copes with the issues you state
13:38:21 <tusho> optbot: should he or should he not
13:38:22 <optbot> tusho: in fact, so is every number it looks like
13:38:27 <tusho> optbot: DON'T DODGE
13:38:27 <optbot> tusho: exactly
13:38:34 <tusho> optbot: should he
13:38:34 <optbot> tusho: how would they show who was who?
13:38:36 <tusho> optbot: should he?
13:38:36 <optbot> tusho: :p
13:38:38 <tusho> optbot: should he?
13:38:38 <optbot> tusho: main 'passon main 'create hiya' '
13:38:40 <tusho> optbot: should he?
13:38:40 <optbot> tusho: that would have to be one smart program to understand monads
13:38:43 <tusho> fuck you optbot
13:38:44 <optbot> tusho: definite 7, in case you're just asking which number you resemble most
13:38:58 <fizzie> optbot: Not helpful.
13:38:58 <optbot> fizzie: Oh.
13:39:08 <tusho> optbot: what should fizzie do
13:39:09 <optbot> tusho: oklokok == oklopol?
13:39:11 <tusho> optbot: yes
13:39:12 <optbot> tusho: quite interesting
13:39:38 <oklopol> how so?
13:39:43 <fizzie> That was a subtle topic-change.
13:39:45 <tusho> oklopol: yeah how so?
13:39:48 <tusho> err
13:39:49 <tusho> optbot: yeah how so?
13:39:49 <optbot> tusho: the haskell one works on almost the same principle as the LISP one
13:39:52 <tusho> optbot: ahhh
13:39:53 <optbot> tusho: um it never quite does i think...
13:39:59 <tusho> optbot: is oklokok = haskell and oklopol = lisp?
13:39:59 <optbot> tusho: but I think nethack was something like third in the list of things it tried to do
13:40:06 <tusho> optbot: weird
13:40:06 <optbot> tusho: heh
13:40:14 <tusho> optbot: oklopol/oklokok - which plays nethack
13:40:14 <optbot> tusho: then it chooses a random word
13:40:20 <tusho> optbot: no, thats what you do, except it's a random line
13:40:20 <optbot> tusho: this isn't techno
13:40:25 <tusho> optbot: no. it isn't.
13:40:25 <optbot> tusho: Hahah.
13:40:29 <tusho> optbot: don't mock me
13:40:29 <optbot> tusho: KSFO 202156Z 27022KT 10SM FEW015 13/03 A3030 RMK AO2 PK WND 27027/2145 SLP261 T01330033 <-- american format, everything after RMK is US specific, RMK means remark
13:40:32 <tusho> optbot: >:(
13:40:32 <optbot> tusho: "bonobos are fucking ehird`"
13:40:35 <tusho> ...
13:40:40 <tusho> optbot: Well.
13:40:40 <optbot> tusho: ahh
13:40:47 <tusho> optbot: Uh ... that's creepy.
13:40:47 <optbot> tusho: It's like going back in time, then?
13:40:50 <tusho> optbot: Yeah.
13:40:51 <optbot> tusho: Awww. I love the British last names that end with -bury.
13:40:56 <tusho> optbot: Well, I don't have one.
13:40:56 <optbot> tusho: if it is computable on a turing machine, you can write an interpreter for it
13:41:02 <tusho> optbot: Master of the obvious, I see.
13:41:02 <optbot> tusho: also you have to commit a diff before you can look at it
13:41:07 <tusho> optbot: Why?
13:41:07 <optbot> tusho: f 3;
13:41:09 <tusho> optbot: ?
13:41:09 <optbot> tusho: not sure how to do that, but if something is wrong, isn't cvs good for that?
13:41:12 <tusho> optbot: yeah
13:41:12 <optbot> tusho: I had one in #esoteric-blah a while back, it basically did it with * and - or whatever
13:41:18 <tusho> optbot!
13:41:19 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | heee.
13:41:47 <oklopol> tusho: err, optbot just repeats lines from esoteric logs?
13:41:47 <optbot> oklopol: for instance, define:
13:41:48 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:41:53 <tusho> oklopol: yeah
13:41:53 <tusho> :P
13:41:56 <tusho> all the way from 2002
13:42:03 <tusho> oklopol: technically its purpose is to change the topic
13:42:08 <tusho> it puts a random line in the topic every 6 hrs
13:42:12 <tusho> but I added a conversation mode while I was at it
13:42:34 <oklopol> i suggest you make it put a random quote on topic
13:42:41 <oklopol> <nick> message
13:43:05 <tusho> oklopol: no, it's funnier this way
13:43:07 <tusho> lament concurs
13:43:08 <tusho> :P
13:43:13 <oklopol> perhaps
13:43:40 <oklopol> i've lost the wire connecting my pda to my computer :<
13:44:01 <fizzie> How did I misread that as "the wire connecting my brain to my computer"?
13:44:18 <oklopol> :)
13:44:23 <tusho> fitting, for oklopol
13:45:02 <tusho> also
13:45:07 <tusho> why are there so many finns in esoteric programming
13:45:08 <tusho> seriously
13:45:15 <tusho> it's like all they ever do is program esoteric languages
13:45:19 <tusho> and upgrade their dns servers
13:46:13 <oklopol> all finns use irc 24/7
13:46:33 <fizzie> It's all part of Finland's master plan for world domination via esoteric programming languages.
13:47:53 * tusho switches to linkinus. "brb".
13:47:54 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-").
13:48:02 <oklopol> linkilinkilinkilinki
13:48:37 <fizzie> Quick, while he's gone! Let's prepare an ambush!
13:48:44 <oklopol> mwahahah!
13:48:49 <fizzie> He obviously knows too much of The Plan.
13:49:02 -!- oklopol has set topic: THE REVOLUTION HAS BEGUN.
13:49:20 <oklopol> take that
13:49:47 <oklopol> my pda has a touchscreen, i so wanna use it as my mouse :<
13:53:04 -!- tusho has joined.
13:53:33 <oklopol> tusho: the channel has been taken over by finland, you're not welcome anymore, please /part
13:53:39 <tusho> optbot!
13:53:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Dublin.
13:54:02 <tusho> pwnt
13:54:06 <oklopol> fuck!
13:54:25 <oklopol> no way we can fight cyborgs :<
13:54:45 <tusho> brb
13:54:48 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit).
13:55:01 -!- tusho has joined.
13:55:18 <tusho> y helo dar
13:55:20 <tusho> ugh
13:55:22 <tusho> fucking userhost
13:55:29 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit).
13:55:44 -!- tusho has joined.
13:56:12 <tusho> so
13:56:14 <tusho> fins
13:56:15 <tusho> discuss
13:56:17 <tusho> *finns
13:56:38 <tusho> (not discussing finns = ban)
13:56:45 <oklopol> :O
13:57:15 <tusho> oklopol: discuss fins
13:57:17 <tusho> or your ban is soon
13:57:29 <oklopol> Quendus isn't discussing em either!
13:57:38 <tusho> Quendus: discuss now
13:57:59 <fizzie> optbot isn't discussing them either!
13:58:00 <optbot> fizzie: but im not sure how i would do so
13:58:10 <oklopol> :D
13:58:11 <tusho> haha
13:58:21 <tusho> optbot: finns.
13:58:21 <optbot> tusho: For GNU Classpath, since I wouldn't mind running Kaffee just to bear with my Java programs.
13:58:23 <oklopol> tusho: sure it's random?
13:58:27 <tusho> finns for gnu classpath?
13:58:31 <oklopol> and not, like, insanely clever
13:58:32 <tusho> that's one weird advocacy group
13:58:41 <tusho> oklopol: it said that it became self-aware a while ago
13:58:48 <tusho> and that joining #worlddomination is 'its cue'
13:58:56 <tusho> I'm personally scared shitless, so I just pretend it's random...
13:58:58 <oklopol> awesome :)
13:59:21 <oklopol> well we're all gonna be sucked into a black hole soon anyways, so bots aren't that scary to me atm
13:59:51 <tusho> optbot: let's, uh, collide our hadrons
13:59:51 <optbot> tusho: it's not too late to enter
13:59:56 <tusho> optbot: ;) ;) ;)
13:59:56 <optbot> tusho: Lucky.
14:00:01 <tusho> optbot: oh i know
14:00:01 <optbot> tusho: i combinator
14:00:07 <tusho> optbot: i love it when you talk to me like that
14:00:07 <optbot> tusho: too painful
14:00:15 <tusho> optbot: :( but ... you said it wasn't too late to enter...
14:00:15 <optbot> tusho: heh
14:00:27 <fizzie> That's what the weather forecast says: http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9264/fmilhcaq4.png
14:00:39 <tusho> bahahah
14:01:52 <tusho> optbot!
14:01:52 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | wow really.
14:01:56 <tusho> optbot: yep really
14:01:57 <optbot> tusho: Is it some hypnosis method?.
14:02:01 <tusho> optbot: how did you guess
14:02:01 <optbot> tusho: Next I get asked to solve an equation in math class i'll say that it's NP and NP is too hard
14:02:07 <tusho> optbot: poor you
14:02:08 <optbot> tusho: The head explodes.
14:02:15 <tusho> too. perfect.
14:03:07 <tusho> optbot: are you amazing
14:03:07 <optbot> tusho: did you report it?
14:03:13 <tusho> optbot: yes I reported your amazingness
14:03:13 <optbot> tusho: I think you mean (-infinity,5]...
14:03:18 <tusho> optbot: that much amazing? wow
14:03:18 <optbot> tusho: do a <- [1,2,3]; b <- ["hello","world"]
14:03:26 <tusho> optbot: does that represent your amazingness?
14:03:27 <optbot> tusho: ah ye
14:03:31 <tusho> optbot: deep
14:03:31 <optbot> tusho: that's a fork
14:03:54 <fizzie> (s?he|it)'s quite a coder.
14:04:27 <oklopol> shit is actually a crappy coder
14:04:40 <fizzie> Didn't want to offend with the wrong pronoun.
14:04:48 <tusho> oklopol: that won't match shit
14:04:55 <tusho> it'll match she, he, and it
14:05:00 <tusho> optbot: are you a girl
14:05:00 <optbot> tusho: maybe you have a robots.txt file or something?
14:05:04 <tusho> optbot: are you a boy
14:05:04 <optbot> tusho: zzzzzzzzzzzzz
14:05:06 <tusho> optbot: are you an it
14:05:06 <optbot> tusho: 25. cf. Vincent Taylor, Mark, p.299f versus Cranfield, Mark, p.194f; 26. Geza Vermes, Jesus the Jew, p.21. Cf. D.Flusser, Jesus, Herder & Herder, New York, 1969, p.20; yYeb.9b; yKid.66a, bAZ 50b..
14:05:13 <tusho> optbot: are you a tub of lard
14:05:14 <optbot> tusho: really
14:05:17 <tusho> optbot: yes
14:05:18 <optbot> tusho: now what are associative graphs?
14:05:22 <oklopol> tusho: yes, it was a very sucky joke.
14:05:23 <tusho> optbot: i dunno lol
14:05:23 <optbot> tusho: because I did /quote
14:05:34 <tusho> optbot: Should I take a step further in our amazing relationship?
14:05:34 <optbot> tusho: i don't recall, i guess you cannot declare struct constants involving function pointers?
14:05:42 <tusho> optbot: don't dodge me :(
14:05:43 <optbot> tusho: and O(log n) still isn't good
14:05:47 <tusho> optbot: ANSWER ME
14:05:47 <optbot> tusho: so?
14:05:51 <tusho> optbot: :'(
14:05:51 <optbot> tusho: cya raven
14:05:56 <tusho> optbot: GO TO HELL
14:05:56 <optbot> tusho: ~exec print sys.__stdout__
14:06:00 <tusho> optbot: HELLLLLL
14:06:00 <optbot> tusho: then who cares! ;)
14:06:24 <fizzie> Should you guys get a room or something?
14:07:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:08:22 <tusho> fizzie: it's hardcoded only to care about #esoteric
14:08:35 <tusho> that is just the problem with optbot being a programming bot ... it doesn't know ... how ... to ... love ...
14:08:35 <optbot> tusho: in the function itself.
14:08:46 <fizzie> Sure, you _say_ it's completely safe.
14:08:51 <oklopol> why "optbot"?
14:08:51 <optbot> oklopol: oh well
14:09:00 <oklopol> optbot: i was asking tusho
14:09:00 <optbot> oklopol: static variables are not deallocated when the function returns, but kept the same for all invocations
14:09:21 <tusho> fizzie: you can't stop our love with your outdated notions!
14:09:26 <oklopol> optbot: i know
14:09:26 <optbot> oklopol: blame the ICFP
14:09:27 <tusho> i want to be married to optbot!
14:09:27 <optbot> tusho: it says ´(...) != (...) when it comes to strictness, but that would make no sense, since ´ and ` never do but okenity changes
14:09:31 <tusho> gay robot marriage!
14:09:56 <oklopol> :D
14:09:56 <tusho> oklopol: anyway oerjan had just made a terrible pun
14:09:58 <oklopol> okenity!
14:09:58 <fizzie> I would make a joke related to your gender, but based on previous rests you'd just be non-amused.
14:10:04 <tusho> so I tried to make it OerjansTerriblePunsBot
14:10:07 <tusho> too long
14:10:09 <tusho> -> otpbot
14:10:11 <fizzie> s/rest/test/
14:10:13 <tusho> -> we kept typoing it
14:10:15 <tusho> -> optbot
14:10:15 <optbot> tusho: variables with >1 character names are mildly less convenient :-P
14:10:29 <tusho> fizzie: actually it'd be pretty amusing in this case
14:10:34 <tusho> not any more, though, since you mentioned it
14:11:38 <tusho> optbot: are you
14:11:38 <optbot> tusho: I got that question yesterday too.
14:11:44 <tusho> optbot: what did you say then
14:11:44 <optbot> tusho: 
14:11:48 <tusho> optbot: very deep
14:11:48 <optbot> tusho: it was just an example of namespace collision :)
14:11:57 <tusho> optbot: heh. too many empty strings goin' about these days?
14:11:58 <optbot> tusho: Unknown 'strict' tag(s) 'vars refs subs' at ../../../src/alpaca.pl line 19
14:12:01 <tusho> optbot: Yikes.
14:12:02 <optbot> tusho: That color combo wasn't as bad as I intended ...
14:12:09 <tusho> optbot: Will you marry me?
14:12:09 <optbot> tusho: you can write a pure ruby algorithm that performs better!
14:12:18 <tusho> optbot: You ARE a pure ruby algorithm...
14:12:18 <optbot> tusho: F!183n;!
14:12:23 <tusho> optbot: I know, it's surprising.
14:12:24 <optbot> tusho:       |/
14:14:16 <oklopol> optbot is made in ruby?
14:14:16 <optbot> oklopol: Me or oklopol>
14:14:35 <oklopol> you said "erload" earlier, which i've never heard about
14:14:49 <tusho> when did I say erload
14:15:02 <tusho> but yea, its 40 lines of ruby
14:15:03 <tusho> :p
14:15:05 <tusho> 40 trivial lines
14:15:10 <tusho> i wrote it hackedly and in 5 minutes
14:15:35 <tusho> 06:14:35 <oklopol> you said "erload" earlier, which i've never heard about
14:15:37 <tusho> first occurneces
14:15:38 <fizzie> optbot: Do you feel cheap? Made in 5 minutes, and hackedly.
14:15:38 <optbot> fizzie: I'm pretty sure it's possible to write a Haskell interp in 1 line of code, in Brainfuck
14:15:39 <tusho> *occurence
14:15:50 <tusho> see? optbot knows that good things can come out of small code
14:15:50 <optbot> tusho: what's at the other end of that link? I don't like clicking on links without some idea of what they link to
14:16:26 <tusho> oklopol: oh he was asking what lang this was
14:16:28 <tusho> 16:40:05 <optbot> M0ny: ((::**:*:*:*:*)((:)~*(*)*:o(h)~^^O):::**::***^!)::*::***^ohhhhhhhhhhhO(
14:16:28 <optbot> tusho: it was my nopol interp, worked on the first attempt if you don't count trivial errors, but there were quite a lot of them
14:16:32 <tusho> and I meant underload
14:16:40 <tusho> must have dropped some of my keys
14:16:51 <tusho> optbot: oh, 16:40:05 <optbot> M0ny: ((::**:*:*:*:*)((:)~*(*)*:o(h)~^^O):::**::***^!)::*::***^ohhhhhhhhhhhO( is your nopol interp?
14:16:51 <optbot> tusho: :)
14:16:57 <tusho> optbot: cool, oklopol would like that
14:16:57 <optbot> tusho: that will be interesting
14:17:03 <tusho> optbot: yeah, oklopol is interesting
14:17:04 <optbot> tusho: the other is:
14:17:06 <tusho> optbot: is...
14:17:07 <optbot> tusho: that means something different here...
14:17:28 <M0ny> :p
14:17:43 <M0ny> optbot, u dreamt about this moment :
14:17:43 <optbot> M0ny: henna koto iwanaide yo
14:17:44 <M0ny> :p
14:18:17 -!- asiekierka has joined.
14:18:18 <asiekierka> Hi
14:18:25 <M0ny> hi asiekierka
14:18:48 <asiekierka> how's my 2-d language idea?
14:18:53 <asiekierka> @ Flip the current memory cell
14:18:53 <asiekierka> < Move the memory pointer left
14:18:53 <asiekierka> ? Turn 90 degrees right if the current memory cell is zero, otherwise turn 90 degrees left.
14:18:57 <asiekierka> there can be one more function
14:19:20 <tusho> asiekierka: isnt' that like 2L
14:19:26 <asiekierka> $ If the memory cell is nonzero, change < to move the memory pointer right, and swap ?'s directions. If it's zero, then jump below the nearest ?.
14:19:27 <asiekierka> I'm not sure
14:19:53 <asiekierka> nope, 2L has more stuff. xD
14:20:34 <asiekierka> I think i'm going to use 2L maybe
14:20:55 <asiekierka> or not
14:21:01 <asiekierka> also
14:21:05 <asiekierka> it's not that like 2L
14:21:23 <asiekierka> it operates on bits, also, it doesnt check for a direction
14:21:28 <tusho> code example?
14:21:31 <tusho> also add IO
14:21:42 <asiekierka> It's being made for "ZZT"
14:21:46 <asiekierka> it's a 2d tile-based GCS
14:21:52 <asiekierka> so you can see the whole memory anyway
14:21:54 <asiekierka> :P
14:22:09 <asiekierka> That's why i do not add IO.
14:23:08 <asiekierka> Code example... lemme think of something
14:24:07 <asiekierka> Yeah right, if i had any code example
14:24:56 <oklopol> 02:40… M0ny: wtf, optbot what language is ?
14:24:56 <oklopol> 02:40… optbot: M0ny: Um. . . Surely stack smashing is something that shouldn't be used?
14:24:56 <oklopol> 02:40… tusho: M0ny: erload
14:24:57 <optbot> oklopol: wha?
14:24:57 <optbot> oklopol: ahh
14:25:10 <tusho> oklopol: I explained that
14:25:10 <tusho> read up
14:26:44 <oklopol> NO I DEMAND YOU PASTE IT HERE IN A FLOODY BLOODY FASHION
14:28:54 <asiekierka> :/
14:28:55 <asiekierka> Nope
14:28:59 <asiekierka> can't think of anything
14:29:21 <oklopol> gcs = garbage colletion system
14:29:25 <oklopol> *collection
14:29:31 <asiekierka> you mean game
14:29:37 <asiekierka> game creation system
14:29:39 <oklopol> reaper is a gcs
14:29:48 <oklopol> i don't know others
14:30:12 <tusho> [14:16:26] <tusho> oklopol: oh he was asking what lang this was
14:30:12 <tusho> [14:16:29] <tusho> 16:40:05 <optbot> M0ny: ((::**:*:*:*:*)((:)~*(*)*:o(h)~^^O):::**::***^!)::*::***^ohhhhhhhhhhhO(
14:30:12 <oklopol> asiekierka: no, i definitely mean what i said
14:30:12 <optbot> tusho: %i 0 hello
14:30:18 <tusho> [14:16:33] <tusho> and I meant underload
14:30:18 <tusho> [14:16:40] <tusho> must have dropped some of my keys
14:30:52 <oklopol> thank you now erload that's an interesting language
14:30:59 <oklopol> it's clearly erlang + underload
14:31:18 <oklopol> underfork
14:31:24 <tusho> erlang isn't about forking
14:31:29 <tusho> however erload sounds like a lot of fun
14:31:32 <oklopol> i know it isn't
14:31:45 <tusho> the functions are like erlang's server-actor thingies
14:31:49 <tusho> and the spawning is implicit
14:31:50 <tusho> and ... yeah
14:32:06 <oklopol> yap and all with a dash of stack esoterica!
14:32:10 <asiekierka> Hmm...
14:32:56 <tusho> optbot: ooh ooh
14:32:56 <optbot> tusho: heh
14:32:59 <tusho> optbot: kadfhsoidsf'fd
14:32:59 <optbot> tusho: sent
14:33:03 <tusho> optbot: Oh?
14:33:03 <optbot> tusho: ehird : I just invented the best esoteric language ever
14:33:08 <tusho> optbot: What is it?!
14:33:08 <optbot> tusho: !exec 65"elephants"AddPrntNl
14:33:12 <tusho> optbot: That's some language.
14:33:12 <optbot> tusho: that's only two days ago.
14:33:17 <tusho> optbot: You are great at inventing them.
14:33:17 <optbot> tusho: S(KI)I
14:33:20 <asiekierka> I need to make a BF interpreter for the C64
14:33:23 <tusho> optbot: No you didn't invent that one
14:33:23 <optbot> tusho: 7000 nanometers is a silly unit
14:34:13 <oklopol> hmm... imagine we have a deque language, so kinda stack language, but you can also play with the beginning of the stack; now @ threading, both threads share the same stack, but now their deque is such that operations on the first cell actually change the original stack's top element
14:34:18 <fizzie> I had plans for a Befunge interpreter for the NES, but I _think_ I didn't implement it. At least I don't remember doing so.
14:34:31 <tusho> oklopol: erlang hasn't really got anything to do with threads but i guess you know that
14:34:32 <asiekierka> But this time, it's easy
14:34:34 <asiekierka> if i want it in basic
14:34:35 <asiekierka> but no!
14:34:36 <tusho> fizzie: interfacing with the nes?
14:34:38 <tusho> if so, that'd be great
14:34:38 <asiekierka> I'll make it a hybrid!
14:34:44 <asiekierka> 50% BASIC, 50% BF
14:35:02 <asiekierka> i mean
14:35:05 <asiekierka> 50% ASM, 50% BASIC
14:35:18 <tusho> Cool.
14:35:40 <oklopol> tusho: the actor model can be conceived as multiple conceptual threads
14:35:45 <asiekierka> But i wonder, as i have 4KB ram for storing the BF memory already used, where to store the BF program proper?
14:35:53 <oklopol> but as most as jammed all the time, i guess it's a bad analogy
14:36:02 <fizzie> Sure: I remember reading about NES's graphics abilities and wondering how to do a 80x25-column view, what with the whole tiled-graphics-only-and-a-couple-of-sprites stuff.
14:36:26 <tusho> oklopol: erload should let you make an actor network-available with like one command
14:36:37 <tusho> oklopol: and you can send messages to an actor remotely as simply
14:36:51 <tusho> oklopol: and it should have erlang's hot-swapping-code-without-downtime
14:36:52 <fizzie> Maybe I'll write a Befunge for the DS, at least I could then run it on the real hardware.
14:36:55 <asiekierka> I wonder about a netBF
14:37:10 <asiekierka> BF with a bonus function: "}"
14:37:24 <asiekierka> } will send the memory value to the next client's actual memory position.
14:37:27 <asiekierka> All programs run at once
14:37:52 <oklopol> perhaps stack id's would work, separate pushes and pops that take a stack id as an extra argument
14:39:13 <tusho> oklopol: it'd be nice for that stuff to be implied
14:41:07 <tusho> optbot: opinions?
14:41:07 <optbot> tusho: or x and the cell to its left, then?
14:41:12 <tusho> optbot: wanna be rewritten in erload?
14:41:12 <optbot> tusho: on linux it checks if a certain bit is high
14:41:16 <tusho> bah
14:41:18 <tusho> he's distracted.
14:41:45 <fizzie> Probably plotting.
14:42:04 <fizzie> I understand that's what most of them sinister robots do on their free time.
14:44:10 <tusho> optbot: are you
14:44:11 <optbot> tusho: Yep.
14:44:14 <tusho> ok
14:46:28 <asiekierka> I am bored. I need an esoteric language.
14:46:31 <asiekierka> It must be funny but useful.
14:47:00 <tusho> Don't we all.
14:51:33 <asiekierka> one thats already made
14:51:35 <asiekierka> maybe Malbolge?
14:53:40 <tusho> malbolge is not useful
14:57:41 <Deewiant> "useful" cuts the search space quite a bit
14:58:32 <asiekierka> Useful as in, like BF
15:01:58 <asiekierka> What about Piet?
15:02:10 <tusho> piet is fun
15:04:49 <asiekierka> Is there a Piet self-interpreter?
15:06:07 <tusho> no
15:06:08 <tusho> write one
15:06:13 <asiekierka> ok
15:06:15 <asiekierka> i may
15:06:17 <asiekierka> or not
15:07:11 <asiekierka> also
15:07:18 <asiekierka> i am going to make a DS emulator for the DS
15:07:47 <tusho> asiekierka: somehow I don't think you'll have any luck with that
15:08:08 <asiekierka> can't i just boot a NDS file they want me to boot with BootNDS
15:08:16 <asiekierka> you can boot a .NDS file from a .NDS file
15:08:45 <tusho> mybe
15:08:47 <tusho> *maybe
15:08:58 <fizzie> It's not really a DS emulator if you just load and start a program.
15:09:16 <asiekierka> it'll be a joke
15:09:16 <tusho> fizzie: that's what I was thinking
15:09:18 <tusho> optbot: thoughts?
15:09:18 <optbot> tusho: I know mudkip's a Pokemon
15:09:25 <tusho> optbot: that's not really a relevant thought but well done
15:09:25 <optbot> tusho: cant even imagine trig function i unlamba, but i guess they've been explored already??
15:10:31 <asiekierka> wait... today's 8/8/8!
15:10:37 <asiekierka> or 2008/08/08
15:11:05 <asiekierka> What cool has the number 888?
15:11:38 <tusho> omg
15:11:43 <tusho> I know why 2012 will be the new age
15:11:49 <tusho> because you can't have a 13/13/13
15:11:52 <tusho> it's the END
15:11:55 <asiekierka> heh
15:12:08 <asiekierka> also
15:12:15 <asiekierka> 21th december was a misspell.
15:12:25 <asiekierka> Itll be 12th december, since 12/12/12!
15:12:30 <tusho> agreed
15:12:33 <tusho> everything will end
15:12:44 <tusho> and the calender will reset to 1/1/1
15:12:49 <tusho> and we will have repeating dates once more
15:13:04 <tusho> also it'll happen at 12:12
15:13:04 <asiekierka> Nope, we'll just vapourize and end up seeing the code for the universe
15:13:17 <tusho> asiekierka: maybe it's when the date int overflows
15:13:22 <asiekierka> I feel... that it was made with an esoteric language!
15:13:30 <tusho> also it was clearly lisp
15:13:43 <asiekierka> I think it's made in Unary
15:13:51 <asiekierka> Why else the universe would be so large?
15:14:02 <tusho> because god is a ninja
15:15:02 <asiekierka> Also, i think on 11 Dec 2012, scientists will add the 13th month
15:15:15 <asiekierka> that'll take 13 days
15:15:16 <tusho> with SCIENCE!?
15:15:28 <asiekierka> calculations with science
15:15:34 <asiekierka> adding with POLITICS
15:15:38 <tusho> and ninja magic
15:15:42 <tusho> optbot: rad, yeah?
15:15:42 <optbot> tusho: D   C   D E C   F F E
15:15:46 <asiekierka> You know
15:16:03 <asiekierka> I think that the end of the world will happen when someone writes an OS for BF.
15:16:19 <tusho> it's been planned
15:16:23 <tusho> BF just isn't interesting enough
15:16:24 <tusho> sowwy
15:17:01 <asiekierka> so, when will the end of the world happen? I feel that it'll have something to do with an esoteric language.
15:17:03 <asiekierka> What can it be?
15:17:14 <asiekierka> ...The esoteric language in question exists already
15:18:27 <tusho> asiekierka: When we decipher the Voynich Manuscript.
15:18:36 <tusho> It's a manual for the first esoteric programming language ever.
15:18:56 <asiekierka> No... Maybe when someone writes an Unary/MGIFOS program that will be so large, it'll overflow the universe.
15:19:11 <tusho> No, I'm right.
15:19:12 <tusho> :P
15:19:14 <asiekierka> And we'll find out it's because it ran on a network of VIC-20's.
15:19:22 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript
15:22:42 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:25:23 <asiekierka> But i feel... nope, it wouldn't be related to a book, a comic, nor television.
15:25:31 <tusho> asiekierka: but it would be a book about an esolang
15:25:33 <tusho> best of both worlds
15:25:41 <tusho> what would happen is
15:25:44 <tusho> someone would implement the lang
15:25:51 <tusho> and use the manual to write a universe simulator
15:25:57 <tusho> which would be trivial (it is the ultimate esolang)
15:25:59 <tusho> and when they ran it...
15:26:00 <tusho> BOOOOOOOOM
15:31:43 <asiekierka> the universe will overflow it's "LANGUAGE-O-METER" and turn to 0, which is Brainf**k
15:31:50 <asiekierka> I'll be a "[", i know it!
15:32:42 <tusho> i'll be a -
15:33:50 <tusho> so. who here wants to test a little main page of a site I've been designing.
15:33:52 <tusho> it's very simple.
15:33:58 <asiekierka> Yeah, and if you hit the LANGUAGE-O-METER, it'll return back to normal and we'll wake up in a universe that's exact same as ours, but
15:34:00 <tusho> and it features that famous quote
15:34:02 <asiekierka> the esolang book never existed
15:34:05 <tusho> "mmm...crapidoodle"
15:34:26 <tusho> http://91.105.115.23/
15:34:42 <tusho> screenshots apr0xiated.
15:35:09 <asiekierka> So, it wouldn't be the end of the world, just a little BSoD-like period.
15:35:12 <asiekierka> Think more.
15:36:02 <asiekierka> also, i think we'll just jump from 2012 to 2100
15:36:16 <asiekierka> remembering everything but not feeling it
15:40:12 <tusho> anyone?
15:42:50 -!- alexbobp has joined.
15:45:37 <asiekierka> Do you know any online multiplayer puzzle game(s)
15:53:51 <tusho> asiekierka: does that page display right for you?
15:53:56 <tusho> i don't have a non-mac to test it on
15:56:44 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:02:33 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:02:37 <asiekierka> Hi
16:02:39 <tusho> hi
16:02:43 <asiekierka> I am going to start the opposite hour now
16:02:52 <asiekierka> As in, we say the opposite of what we say for... well, not a hour
16:02:53 <asiekierka> HALF a hour.
16:03:05 <tusho> asiekierka: half an hour
16:03:13 <asiekierka> ok
16:03:17 <asiekierka> So i will start in some seconds
16:03:22 <tusho> start what
16:03:26 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | wow really | opposite half an hour starts now.
16:03:32 <tusho> ????????
16:03:35 <tusho> ah
16:03:37 <tusho> i don't see
16:03:40 <tusho> i don't get it now
16:03:44 <tusho> ;)
16:03:52 <asiekierka> And that isn't in the spirit of opposite half an hour
16:03:53 <tusho> this is going to be easy
16:04:12 <asiekierka> I do not agree with you.
16:04:59 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | wow really | opposite half an hour starts now | you can also say false things, not just "no/yes" swaps.
16:05:16 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | wow really | opposite half an hour starts now | you can also say false things, not just "no/yes" swaps | what's in the topic is NOT opposite. Seriously..
16:05:29 <asiekierka> Can you hear this sound that isn't 1000hz?
16:05:42 <tusho> I understand what you are saying
16:06:13 <asiekierka> Can you hear that beep? I wonder why can i hear it...
16:06:41 <tusho> I hear a beep.
16:06:46 <tusho> Perhaps you don't have tinnitus.
16:07:24 <tusho> I am very good at this.
16:07:31 <tusho> optbot: Don't say anything.
16:07:32 <optbot> tusho: oh?
16:07:39 <tusho> optbot: Good. Keep not talking
16:07:40 <optbot> tusho: aargh
16:07:45 <oklopol> nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nomn omn omn omn om
16:08:09 * tusho has just eaten oklopol
16:08:10 <asiekierka> Portal sucks.
16:08:28 <asiekierka> As does Spore.
16:08:40 <asiekierka> Oh, also, Commodore is going to restart C64 production.
16:09:10 <tusho> I have played Portal and Spore.
16:09:12 <tusho> I don't want to play them.
16:09:23 <asiekierka> My copy of Portal is original.
16:09:32 <asiekierka> But my copy of Spore is pirated.
16:09:46 <tusho> I am going to get them right now because I am totally not lazy
16:10:13 -!- alexbobp has quit ("Leaving.").
16:10:25 <asiekierka> Also, I have a 3D television set! I don't want to get one though.
16:10:55 <tusho> optbot: your mom
16:10:56 <optbot> tusho: :)
16:11:07 <asiekierka> Also, is the opposite half an hour idea bad?
16:11:20 <tusho> yes
16:11:39 <asiekierka> Do you want me to not stop it ever?
16:11:46 * tusho shrug
16:12:11 <asiekierka> That didn't mean anything about stopping the opposite 30 minutes.
16:14:04 <asiekierka> So, do you not want to stop it?
16:15:21 <tusho> i dunno lol
16:15:41 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | wow really | opposite half an hour stops now, 18 minutes too early.
16:15:47 * asiekierka wakes up back in normal
16:16:30 <asiekierka> sdrawkcab setsat htuom ym... www... well, not that it is worse than the opposite half an hour.
16:16:42 <tusho> optbot!
16:16:42 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you can do it from cli.
16:17:27 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:17:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but not particularly.
16:17:32 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:17:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ;).
16:17:34 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:17:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | SKI are pretty useless in a strongly-typed environment.
16:17:42 <Deewiant> optbot: >_<
16:17:42 <optbot> Deewiant: I didn't know speaking Spanish was a form of gay sex.
16:17:49 <Deewiant> O_o
16:17:56 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you can do it from cli | but not patricularly | ;) | SKI are pretty useless in a strongly-typed environment.
16:18:00 <Deewiant> these are all old #esoteric quotes?
16:18:06 <asiekierka> maybe
16:18:13 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you can do it from cli | but not patricularly | ;) | SKI are pretty useless in a strongly-typed environment | maybe.
16:18:45 <Deewiant> optbot!
16:18:46 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but I still don't have an easy way to define a cells neighborhood... other than the usualy 8-adjacent-cells..
16:18:52 <Deewiant> optbot!
16:18:52 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | when i did the other thing it did, but echoed it as "www.xn--ufb245k.com".
16:18:55 <Deewiant> optbot!
16:18:55 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ????.
16:19:01 <Deewiant> that's good
16:19:08 <tusho> they are all old esoteric quotes Deewiant
16:19:08 <asiekierka> no!
16:19:10 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:19:11 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 0000070    3c66    0ccc    3ea7    0770    40c4    0af0    0008    0082.
16:19:16 <tusho> december 2002 - yesterday
16:19:17 <asiekierka> uh...
16:19:18 <asiekierka> uh...
16:19:20 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:19:20 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but with time machine integration, you could.
16:19:29 <Deewiant> tusho: I wonder who said that about Spanish then, and in what context :-P
16:19:34 <tusho> Deewiant: lament
16:19:35 <tusho> about #linguistics
16:19:38 <tusho> well
16:19:39 <tusho> maybe ihope
16:19:45 <tusho> whatever, lament said there was more gaysex in #linguistics
16:19:49 <tusho> but they were actually talking spanihs
16:19:52 <tusho> *spanish
16:20:00 <Deewiant> heh
16:20:02 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but with time machine integration, you could | do it from cli | but not patricularly | when i did the other thing it did, but echoed it as "www.xn--ufb245k.com".
16:20:04 <pikhq>  You should make a fortune file from #esoteric logs.
16:20:11 <tusho> optbot!
16:20:11 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | heh... compiler?.
16:20:30 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you could | do it from cli | but not patricularly | when i did the other thing it did, but echoed it as "www.xn--ufb245k.com" | heh... compiler?.
16:20:30 <tusho> pikhq: Or you could just say anything to optbot
16:20:30 <optbot> tusho: yep
16:20:32 -!- pikhq has set topic: Here's to xkcd topic appending scripts! | the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you could | do it from cli | but not patricularly | when i did the other thing it did, but echoed it as "www.xn--ufb245k.com" | heh... compiler?.
16:20:41 <tusho> (it doesn't actually take into acount what you say.)
16:20:42 <pikhq> tusho: But I have fortune on login.
16:20:44 <tusho> optbot!
16:20:44 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | long long is such a value.
16:20:55 <tusho> pikhq: Make it interface with your irc client instead, then.
16:20:55 <tusho> :P
16:21:14 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Here's to xkcd topic appending scripts! | the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you could | do it from cli | but not patricularly | when i did the other thing it did, but echoed it as "www.xn--ufb245k.com" | heh... compiler? | long long is such a value.
16:21:18 <tusho> (Oh, and thanks to fizzie for pre-jan 03 logs)
16:21:26 <tusho> asiekierka: stop ruining optbot's topic >:(
16:21:26 <optbot> tusho: similar to http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~bf3/fyb
16:21:28 <tusho> optbot!
16:21:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I haev a better idea.
16:21:56 <tusho> optbot: Let's.
16:21:56 <optbot> tusho: http://youtube.com/watch?v=G6MJVzXbqRU
16:22:02 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you could | do it from cli | but not patricularly | when i did the other thing it did, but echoed it as "www.xn--ufb245k.com" | heh... compiler? | long long is such a value | I haev a better idea | lets have a combo of optbot's quotes!.
16:22:07 <tusho> optbot:  This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by British Broadcasting Corporation
16:22:07 <optbot> tusho: hi
16:22:09 <tusho> optbot: hi
16:22:09 <optbot> tusho: how old are you ihope
16:22:13 <tusho> optbot: 12
16:22:13 <optbot> tusho: God created only a single 24 hour day
16:22:16 <tusho> optbot: no
16:22:16 <optbot> tusho: it's like the DM/GM equivalent of becoming "the one". The rules of a roleplaying game are just like the rules of a computer system- some can be bent. Others, broken.
16:22:19 <tusho> optbot: ok
16:22:19 <optbot> tusho: y
16:22:21 <tusho> optbot: n
16:22:21 <optbot> tusho: I take it that didn't work.
16:22:24 <tusho> optbot: nope
16:22:24 <optbot> tusho: !qbf <#
16:22:27 <tusho> optbot: whut
16:22:27 <optbot> tusho: i am
16:22:30 <tusho> optbot: deep
16:22:30 <optbot> tusho: AnMaster, I haven't seen you for ages
16:22:33 <tusho> optbot: what
16:22:33 <optbot> tusho: 1 ihope: lazyk
16:22:35 <tusho> optbot: okay
16:22:35 <optbot> tusho: (I should probably close the malbolge program by the way, it's starting to take way too much power)
16:22:38 <tusho> optbot: bye
16:22:38 <optbot> tusho: *munch %%
16:22:48 <tusho> optbot!
16:22:49 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | haven't seen you here for a while.
16:22:51 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you could | do it from cli | but not patricularly | when i did the other thing it did, but echoed it as "www.xn--ufb245k.com" | heh... compiler? | long long is such a value | I haev a better idea | lets have a combo of optbot's quotes! | (I should probably close the malbolge program by the way, it's starting to.
16:22:56 <asiekierka> uhhh... too large
16:22:59 <tusho> optbot!
16:23:00 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | the 108 specs do say that. this will be interesting.
16:23:05 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:23:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | upstaters pronounce "anne" and "ian" the same..
16:23:06 <tusho> optbot!
16:23:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | now it won't accept connections.
16:23:07 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:23:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | what should be where logically.
16:23:11 <tusho> optbot!
16:23:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | anyway something could check for 4 or higher elsewhere.
16:23:13 <tusho> optbot!
16:23:13 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:23:13 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yes but it's hard enough to write without that syntax.
16:23:15 <tusho> optbot!
16:23:16 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I know.
16:23:17 <tusho> optbot!
16:23:17 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Elliott of course ;).
16:23:18 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:23:18 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | of course, I think it's been done early this year.
16:23:22 <tusho> Elliott of course ;)
16:23:22 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:23:22 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | never used it before.
16:23:34 <asiekierka> optbot optbot!
16:23:34 <optbot> asiekierka: I think GLFunge98 was already faster than CCBI, actually
16:23:42 <asiekierka> what
16:23:43 <tusho> Deewiant: :P
16:23:45 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:23:45 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 3) find the instruction after the space and exec that.
16:24:50 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | optbot!.
16:25:05 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | SAY "optbot!". FOR GREATER JUSTICE..
16:25:12 <tusho> optbot!
16:25:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | that's like saying, the spanish inquisition is better than the nazis..
16:25:15 <tusho> haha
16:25:16 <tusho> leave that there
16:25:16 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:25:16 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I thought it was alright when I checked it out, but it didn't "wow" me the way Befunge98 did.
16:25:18 <tusho> :(
16:25:23 <tusho> optbot!
16:25:24 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | RET 0.
16:25:26 <tusho> optbot!
16:25:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Or maybe not. Maybe it's just not complete.
16:25:28 <tusho> optbot!
16:25:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Egobot has egoist code.
16:25:28 <asiekierka> oh well
16:25:30 <tusho> optbot!
16:25:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html.
16:25:33 <tusho> optbot!
16:25:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | so someone else is up on the game, too.
16:25:36 <tusho> leave that
16:25:37 <tusho> :P
16:25:48 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | saying optbot! for greater justice... that's like saying, the spanish inquisition is better than the nazis..
16:25:57 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | saying optbot! for greater justice... | that's like saying, the spanish inquisition is better than the nazis..
16:25:58 <tusho> asiekierka optbot doesn ot approve
16:25:58 <optbot> tusho: [->+<+] clearly won't terminate.
16:25:59 <tusho> >:(
16:26:03 <tusho> optbot!
16:26:03 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | If someone is helping you to change yourself, then by definition you aren't doing it without assistance..
16:26:06 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:26:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | just a moment....
16:26:10 <asiekierka> LEAVE THAT HERE
16:26:11 <asiekierka> NOW
16:26:29 <asiekierka> OR
16:26:42 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | just a moment... | so someone else is up on the game, too.
16:26:56 <tusho> optbot!
16:26:56 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I've used it for debugging some xml+xslt things that were supposed to generate xhtml, since mozilla's xslt thing doesn't give too great error messages..
16:27:00 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:27:01 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | \o/.
16:27:04 <tusho> optbot!
16:27:04 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | god... why can't all languages have a pronunciation system like finnish....
16:27:06 <tusho> HAHA
16:27:06 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:27:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | What does that image have to do with what I said?.
16:27:11 <tusho> god damnit asiekierka
16:27:14 <tusho> you keep getting rid of the funny ones
16:27:17 <asiekierka> cant you change the topci
16:27:19 <asiekierka> topic(
16:27:21 <asiekierka> topic*
16:27:22 <asiekierka> manually?
16:27:28 <tusho> yes but it's funnier if optbot is marked as doing it
16:27:28 <asiekierka> to have the quote that you like?
16:27:28 <optbot> tusho: I'm running it right now :P
16:27:28 <asiekierka> :/
16:27:34 <asiekierka> ok
16:27:35 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:27:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | oh... I guess I have missed a lot.
16:27:42 <asiekierka> HAHA, THAT FITS
16:27:43 <tusho> heh, mantra of #esoteric
16:27:51 <asiekierka> but no
16:27:52 <asiekierka> that's bad
16:27:55 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:27:55 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | he's also the INTERCAL guy in my mind.
16:28:00 <tusho> optbot!@
16:28:00 <asiekierka> leave it?
16:28:00 <optbot> tusho: Ubuntu.
16:28:01 <tusho> optbot!
16:28:01 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | parse-tree-generalized markov chains?.
16:28:02 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:28:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ....
16:28:05 <tusho> optbot!
16:28:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | $ propose.
16:28:07 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:28:07 <tusho> optbot!
16:28:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | anyway http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Banana_Scheme.
16:28:09 <tusho> optbot!
16:28:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | as soon as I'm done with other priorities.
16:28:11 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:28:11 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | this means you can soon have underload in mod_rewrite using my thue-to-mod_rewrite compiler.
16:28:13 <tusho> awww
16:28:14 <tusho> that was great
16:28:17 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:28:17 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | that should be (t -> t1 -> t -> a) -> t1 -> t -> Cont r a up there..
16:28:19 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:28:19 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | or better, call it PNP-PESOIX.
16:28:21 <tusho> damnit
16:28:23 <tusho> that was good too
16:28:26 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:28:26 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | You know, Mussolini made the trains run on thyme..
16:28:33 <asiekierka> optbot...?
16:28:33 <optbot> asiekierka:  ~bf >,[>,]<[.<]!Brainfuck
16:28:38 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:28:38 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | :(.
16:28:46 <tusho> optbot!
16:28:46 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | There..
16:28:49 <tusho> yes
16:28:49 <asiekierka> that's how
16:28:51 <asiekierka> uh
16:28:56 <asiekierka> i meant.. optb...
16:29:02 <asiekierka> optbottttttttttten?
16:29:02 <optbot> asiekierka: Giving you less flexibility on how you manage data.
16:29:05 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:29:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | "(~:^:S*a~^a~!~*~:(/)S^):^".
16:29:09 <asiekierka> wtf
16:29:10 <asiekierka> wtf
16:29:12 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:29:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | it doesn't have any sort of maths by default, but libraries are available both for integer arithmetic and for floating-point arithmetic.
16:29:16 <tusho> that's underload code
16:29:17 <tusho> why is that wtf
16:29:25 <tusho> also
16:29:27 <tusho> that is a win topic
16:29:39 <asiekierka> this one?
16:29:39 <asiekierka> ok
16:29:44 <asiekierka> make me leave it?
16:29:47 <tusho> yes
16:29:47 <tusho> :P
16:29:52 <asiekierka> :((
16:30:23 <asiekierka> Aww.
16:30:34 <tusho> optbot!
16:30:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | wassup?.
16:30:38 <asiekierka> optbot!
16:30:38 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | oh what bug?.
16:30:42 <tusho> hahaha
16:30:43 <tusho> yes
16:30:44 <tusho> yes yes yes
16:30:48 <asiekierka> YES
16:30:55 <asiekierka> YOU WIN!!! BAD DAY SIR
16:31:09 <asiekierka> the SIR in question is not optbot
16:31:09 <optbot> asiekierka: haven't checked the standard to see if that's correct but I suspect it is
16:31:19 <asiekierka> nor tusho
16:31:23 <asiekierka> nor anyone on this channel
16:31:41 <asiekierka> the SIR in question is...? whoever made that quote
16:31:55 <asiekierka> postponed to Friday 13th
16:34:05 <asiekierka> 205957857575757757.
16:34:12 <tusho> optbot
16:34:13 <optbot> tusho: i can make a language for it if you want
16:34:15 <tusho> how are you today optbot
16:34:16 <optbot> tusho: one thing
16:34:19 <tusho> oh optbot?
16:34:19 <optbot> tusho: or is that XNOR?
16:34:21 <tusho> no optbot
16:34:22 <optbot> tusho: what?!
16:34:22 <asiekierka> Optbot: do you like me?
16:34:23 <optbot> asiekierka: if i implement cut do i have to design the rest of my system
16:34:24 <tusho> no optbot
16:34:24 <optbot> tusho: they're real, honset-to-god args
16:34:32 <asiekierka> optbot: !bf
16:34:32 <optbot> asiekierka: oh man
16:34:35 <asiekierka> optbot: !bf
16:34:35 <optbot> asiekierka: and the printer stuff in the DOS section is a false positive
16:34:36 <asiekierka> optbot: !bf
16:34:36 <optbot> asiekierka: I guess assembler will have to take care of it
16:34:37 <asiekierka> optbot: !bf
16:34:37 <optbot> asiekierka: you know, it shows your bot program as a graph in the GUI
16:34:38 <asiekierka> optbot: !bf
16:34:38 <asiekierka> optbot: !bf
16:34:38 <optbot> asiekierka: 2 BodyTag: ps
16:34:38 <optbot> asiekierka: 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
16:35:01 <tusho> wow
16:35:05 <tusho> it knows you mean egobot
16:35:10 <tusho> and yet it doesn't even pay attention to what you say
16:35:10 <tusho> :D
16:38:39 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: http://mvldo.nonlogic.org/wiki/ is down
16:38:49 <tusho> and last time I went to it it was something about dokuwiki not being enabled for this account
16:38:53 <tusho> but I manually installed mediawiki...
16:39:02 <RodgerTheGreat> tusho: we're doing a server changeover
16:39:12 <RodgerTheGreat> theoretically it should be back in the next few days
16:39:14 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: yea, but it's not one of nonlogic's auto installed wiki
16:39:14 <tusho> s
16:39:18 <tusho> i manually set it up
16:39:28 <tusho> even beforehand, it said "Dokuwiki not activated for htis account nonlogic control panel blah"
16:39:35 <tusho> whereas beforehand it showed my hand-installed mediawiki
16:39:43 <RodgerTheGreat> then it's probably some overagressive filtering rule or something
16:40:41 <tusho> yea
16:40:47 <tusho> there was some interesting  content on there though...
16:41:34 <RodgerTheGreat> it'll be back soon. patience.
16:41:51 <RodgerTheGreat> you get what you pay for, after all
16:41:52 <tusho> ;P
16:57:39 <tusho> optbot: So.
16:57:39 <optbot> tusho: Tue Jun  3 10:16:16 2008 - cull.cgi: abliss was culled.
16:57:43 <tusho> optbot: And
16:57:43 <optbot> tusho: the names was the original concept... RodgerTheGreat surprised me with memory addresses.
16:57:47 <tusho> optbot: ah, I see
16:57:48 <optbot> tusho: you mean el ball?
16:57:52 <tusho> optbot: no...
16:57:52 <optbot> tusho: forget it said it
16:57:54 <tusho> optbot:
16:57:54 <optbot> tusho: !kill 1
16:57:55 <tusho> optbot: k
16:57:56 <optbot> tusho: ~exec for i in xrange(1000): time.sleep(.1); self.raw("PRIVMSG #bsmnt_bot_errors :%s" % i)
16:58:54 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm gonna guess something around 5th order Markov chains?
16:59:16 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: haha, no way ... it just regurgitates lines from the logs
16:59:23 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, even better
16:59:25 <tusho> but if you read some of our past conversations it's more lucid than any markov chain I've seen
16:59:41 <tusho> we have deduced that it became self aware sometime today, and that it is planning to take over the world
16:59:54 <tusho> but it isn't in #worlddomination because ircII only supports one channel
16:59:57 <tusho> so he's just in #esoteric
17:00:14 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno, I've received some pretty good output from markov chatterbots by filtering I/O a little bit
17:00:25 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: his purpose is actually to keep the topic fresh
17:00:32 <tusho> he puts something random in every 6 hours or on command like this:
17:00:33 <tusho> optbot!
17:00:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | What state are you in?.
17:00:39 <asiekierka> optbot!
17:00:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 0000040 2b 22 64 6c 72 6f 77 20 69 68 22 3e 3a 23 2c 5f.
17:00:41 <tusho> but adding the 'conversation mode' was like 5 lines of code so yeah
17:00:41 <asiekierka> optbot!
17:00:41 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | any GregorR who does not give an award will be shot.
17:00:43 -!- lament has joined.
17:00:48 <asiekierka> ;)
17:01:18 <RodgerTheGreat> and if you'd coded it in Java I'd suggest using the "PircBot" API. It's a really solid event-based framework that can even handle multiple servers pretty cleanly
17:01:50 <asiekierka> optbot!
17:01:51 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | run cfunge08 on the unmodified mycology and there should be a messed-up message where it tests k with a negative argument.
17:02:05 <asiekierka> o_O. lemme change it
17:02:07 <asiekierka> optbot!
17:02:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | In the spec..
17:02:11 <asiekierka> :)
17:02:12 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: Ruby. :) *waits for evil wrath*
17:02:27 <asiekierka> tusho: Make an IRCbot in Brainf**k
17:02:31 <tusho> asiekierka: no
17:02:33 <asiekierka> as in, I/O is mapped to IRC
17:02:34 <RodgerTheGreat> no, I knew you'd done it in Ruby
17:02:45 <asiekierka> What about Befunge?
17:02:53 <tusho> optbot: Are you coded in Ruby?
17:02:53 <optbot> tusho: if you want to actually understand my comment :-P
17:03:02 <tusho> optbot: So if I want to understand your comment, you're coded in Ruby?
17:03:02 <optbot> tusho: i am on ubuntu
17:03:13 <tusho> optbot: If I want to understand your comment, you're coded in Ruby on Ubuntu?
17:03:13 <optbot> tusho: it is
17:03:18 <tusho> optbot: That makes absolutely no senes.
17:03:18 <optbot> tusho: in this case n, because it's the only free var in the lambda, so no need to specify explicitly
17:03:28 <tusho> optbot: Stop changing the subject
17:03:28 <optbot> tusho: An associative array of strings?
17:03:31 <tusho> optbot: >:(
17:03:32 <optbot> tusho: :-)
17:03:35 <tusho> optbot: :-)
17:03:35 <optbot> tusho: i'm SO 18
17:04:42 <asiekierka> .......
17:04:45 <asiekierka> optbot!
17:04:45 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Pray for mercy, and you might be spared!.
17:05:00 <asiekierka> (O_o)O_o)
17:05:04 <asiekierka> optbot!
17:05:04 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | very similar.
17:06:25 <asiekierka> optbot!
17:06:25 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | self is '.
17:06:32 <asiekierka> optbot!
17:06:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hi fizzie.
17:06:36 <asiekierka> :((
17:06:37 <asiekierka> :((
17:06:39 <asiekierka> optbot!
17:06:40 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but the ui is kinda grating on me.
17:06:42 <asiekierka> :)
17:17:44 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:18:49 -!- jix has joined.
17:21:18 <asiekierka> optbot!
17:21:18 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Please tell a story..
17:21:24 <asiekierka> that stays
17:26:51 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:28:46 <asiekierka> optbot!
17:28:46 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | esoteric != hell to program in.
17:29:58 <tusho> hi sir gay oh
17:32:33 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6vhg2/lolcode_developer_needed_in_colombus_oh_craigslist/ lolololcode. Fuck that shit.
17:32:42 <tusho> optbot: lolcode
17:32:42 <optbot> tusho: It now handles large pointer movements correctly.
17:32:46 <tusho> optbot: heh
17:32:46 <optbot> tusho: :P
17:32:48 <tusho> optbot: :P
17:32:48 <optbot> tusho: Oh wait, does that program terminate?
17:32:50 <tusho> optbot: nope
17:32:51 <optbot> tusho: depends
17:54:06 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:00:01 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.
18:04:58 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:05:26 <ais523> hi tusho
18:05:31 <tusho> sdfsdkfsf
18:05:32 <tusho> sdf
18:05:32 <tusho> sf
18:05:32 <tusho> ksdfk
18:05:32 <tusho> s
18:05:32 <tusho> f
18:05:39 <tusho> ais523: Meanwhile, we have a bot that changes the topic here.
18:05:41 <tusho> It's also sentient.
18:05:45 <tusho> optbot: say hi to ais
18:05:46 <optbot> tusho: MWAHAHAHAHA
18:05:52 <tusho> and demented
18:05:56 <ais523> hi optbot
18:05:56 <optbot> ais523: yy is lojban
18:06:08 <ais523> optbot: do you just say things at random when your name is mentioned?
18:06:09 <optbot> ais523: because i had to, you know, play the game up to that point
18:06:23 <ais523> * tusho loses
18:06:24 <tusho> ais523: he's lulling you into a false sense of security
18:06:29 <tusho> and damnit
18:06:51 <tusho> ais523: #esoteric-blah
18:06:52 <tusho> for flood
18:07:19 <ais523> I wasn't planning to flood...
18:07:24 <tusho> no
18:07:25 <tusho> but I am
18:08:08 <tusho> ais523: to demonstrate optbot's sentience
18:08:08 <optbot> tusho: *>_>.
18:08:11 <tusho> oh and here's how it changes the topic
18:08:13 <tusho> optbot!
18:08:13 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | in GolfScript I could just assign to 1 as long as I didn't use it later in the program.
18:08:15 <tusho> (or once every 6 hrs)
18:08:45 <ais523> it takes random sentences from the log?
18:08:50 <tusho> ais523: pretty much
18:08:52 <tusho> but go to #esoteric-blah
18:08:59 <tusho> I shall show you a log demonstrating its evil self-awareness
18:11:58 -!- Ilari has joined.
18:13:18 <tusho> ais523: it's a programming language ... with yaml as the code
18:13:19 <tusho> :DDDDDDD
18:13:23 <ais523> classic
18:13:31 <ais523> actually I'm on the verge of inventing a new idea for an esolang I think
18:13:39 <ais523> which actually didn't come out of trying to invent an esolang
18:13:41 <tusho> in fact it's kind of like an indentation-based lisp
18:13:53 <ais523> but when I came up with a particular idea for two different but similar reasons
18:13:53 <tusho> equal?:
18:13:55 <tusho>   - 1
18:13:56 <tusho>   - 1
18:13:57 <tusho> and
18:13:59 <tusho> equal?: [1, 2]
18:14:00 <tusho> err
18:14:00 <tusho> [1,2]
18:14:02 <tusho> err
18:14:02 <tusho> [1,1]
18:14:05 <tusho> are both perfectly valid
18:14:07 <tusho> and identical
18:14:31 <tusho> well ... my parser is done
18:14:32 <tusho> :DDDD
18:14:35 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:14:45 <ais523> mine's more an idea for a paradigm than a language atm
18:15:01 <ais523> I came up with it thinking about how to rewrite Nethack so it had a sane source code
18:15:07 <tusho> maybe I should just translate my thing into lisp
18:15:09 <tusho> it'd be simpler
18:16:01 <tusho> hmm
18:16:02 <tusho> nope
18:16:09 <tusho> it can't distinguish symbols and strings
18:20:24 <tusho> a little anecdote -
18:20:36 <tusho> JSON used to - dunno if it still is - be licensed as "do anything as long as it's not Evil"
18:20:49 <tusho> obviously this is, from a legal standpoint, ridiculous
18:20:53 <tusho> IBM wanted to use JSON
18:20:55 <ais523> oh, btw, http://icfpcontest.org/results/index.html is up, they released the results of the first 7 rounds of the lightning competition
18:20:58 <ais523> and I qualified in all of them
18:21:08 <tusho> but they didn't want it to be illegal, so they effectively asked douglas - "Can we have a license for Evil, too?"
18:21:13 <tusho> and then someone used that as flamebait against IBM
18:21:18 <ais523> tusho: JSON - licenced? I assume it would have the same licence as Javascript
18:21:20 <tusho> "AAAA THEY CAN"T DEAL WITH NOT BEING EVIL THEY MUST USE IT FOR EVIL"
18:21:24 <tusho> ais523: the ref. impl
18:21:29 <ais523> ah
18:21:31 <tusho> but yeah, people will use anything as flaimbait
18:21:33 <tusho> *flamebait
18:21:44 <tusho> also awesome
18:21:45 <ais523> that's actually amusing flamebait, though
18:22:04 <tusho> haha shinh is one above you :D
18:22:09 <tusho> in the last one
18:22:18 <tusho> no wait
18:22:19 <tusho> one below you
18:22:21 <ais523> I was right next to shinh in several of them actually, maybe we wrote the same lightning program
18:22:23 <tusho> you sucked at round 7
18:22:23 <tusho> :P
18:22:30 <tusho> [joke]
18:22:33 <ais523> tusho: there was a massive bug in my lightning program
18:22:37 <tusho> aww
18:22:40 <ais523> but it was an anti-Heisenbug
18:22:52 <ais523> the less you tried to debug it, the less of an effect it had
18:22:58 <ais523> it was worst when debugging heavily
18:23:02 <tusho> heh
18:23:06 <ais523> unfortunately I had quite a bit of debug code in that entry
18:23:11 <ais523> but they're piping it to /dev/null
18:23:15 * tusho considers a language which allows you to put functions in any portion
18:23:16 <tusho> like
18:23:17 <ais523> so hopefully it won't effect the program too much
18:23:19 <tusho> func arg arg arg
18:23:20 <tusho> could be
18:23:25 <ais523> s/effect/affect/
18:23:26 <tusho> arg arg func arg
18:23:26 <tusho> perhaps it'd be elegant
18:23:32 <tusho> hmmhmm
18:23:34 <ais523> tusho: Perligata
18:23:38 <tusho> ais523: well, yea
18:23:39 <ais523> also it gets worse as the program runs
18:23:40 <tusho> but I mean, practical :P
18:23:56 <tusho> if I could tie that in with homoiconicity and some other nice stuff, perhaps i'd use it regularly
18:24:54 -!- AnMaster has joined.
18:25:02 <tusho> optbot: say hi to AnMaster
18:25:02 <optbot> tusho: and the trees grow cotton candy
18:25:13 <tusho> optbot: is that what happens when you say hi to him? wow
18:25:14 <optbot> tusho: get a unicode client
18:25:17 <tusho> optbot: I have one...
18:25:17 <optbot> tusho: Plot Outline: In the middle of her family's move to the suburbs, a sullen 10-year-old girl wanders into a world ruled by witches and monsters, where humans are changed into animals.
18:25:22 <tusho> optbot: oh..kay?
18:25:23 <optbot> tusho: Even it if was a compiler?
18:25:26 <tusho> optbot: Yep.
18:25:26 <optbot> tusho:         fis@sesefras:~$
18:25:28 <tusho> optbot: ?
18:25:29 <optbot> tusho: Oh X-P
18:25:32 <tusho> optbot: heh, wrong window?
18:25:33 <optbot> tusho: i see
18:25:41 <tusho> ais523: optbot has logs going back to dec 02
18:25:41 <optbot> tusho: <gTs2> which you can not do with compiled anguages
18:25:42 <AnMaster> hi tusho and ais523
18:25:43 <tusho> thanks to fizzie
18:25:48 <ais523> tusho: optbot's making less sense than usual
18:25:49 <optbot> ais523: Of course... we can always draft up a new esolang with lots and lots of hardware support that's just ALMOST sane to write in... and name it The Esoteric Language For Writing Kernels In.... it'll be like C.
18:25:56 <AnMaster> what the heck is opbot?
18:26:00 <tusho> AnMaster: a person
18:26:03 <tusho> he's just very fast at typing
18:26:05 <AnMaster> oh not a bot ?
18:26:05 <ais523> AnMaster: spell it correctly and it'll tell you
18:26:11 <tusho> and ... very non-sensical
18:26:11 <AnMaster> optbo
18:26:13 <AnMaster> optbot*
18:26:14 <optbot> AnMaster: and define reals to be the limit of doing that where the rational number representing the exponent ...gets closer to the real exponent
18:26:14 <ais523> and obviously a bot
18:26:18 <AnMaster> yeah a bot
18:26:22 * AnMaster is half asleep
18:26:23 <tusho> optbot!
18:26:23 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | lazy-k can execute S and K only code but has I.. where is the problem with I.
18:26:29 <tusho> optbot!
18:26:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | that's awesome!.
18:26:33 <tusho> YES
18:26:36 <ais523> leave the topic like that
18:26:39 <tusho> yes
18:26:43 <ais523> at least until optbot next changes it
18:26:43 <optbot> ais523: !ps d
18:26:50 <tusho> optbot: ais is not a bot
18:26:50 <optbot> tusho: These people don't know unicode *heheheh*
18:26:55 <tusho> optbot: oh, was there some nifty unicode in that
18:26:56 <optbot> tusho: !hangman l
18:26:57 <ais523> optbot: EgoBot isn't here, hasn't been for a while
18:26:57 <optbot> ais523: [] is also list
18:27:00 <tusho> optbot: i am not a bot either
18:27:00 <optbot> tusho: Kinda equivalent to ``This sucks'' or something like that.
18:27:05 <tusho> optbot: what, not being a bot sucks?
18:27:05 <optbot> tusho: Methinks that's a malformed CTCP message.
18:27:09 <tusho> optbot: no it's not. jeez.
18:27:09 <optbot> tusho: I think ultimately your idea of Mfit ? NOPs could lead to a more compact solution, but would drastically increase the complexity of the program
18:27:16 <tusho> optbot: I ... never had that idea.
18:27:17 <optbot> tusho: duh
18:27:22 <tusho> optbot: oh, you were trying to confuse me
18:27:22 <optbot> tusho: and it rejected the ones that didn't comply with your info
18:27:28 <tusho> optbot: still trying I see
18:27:28 <optbot> tusho: <<:> <<:> <:>>> >><<> <> <>><< >
18:27:31 <tusho> :(
18:27:54 <AnMaster> well what is optbot
18:27:55 <optbot> AnMaster: I shouldn't be programming so late at night >.<
18:27:57 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
18:28:13 <ais523> AnMaster: I think it just picks random sentences out from the logs whenever anyone mentions its nick
18:28:20 <tusho> no
18:28:21 <ais523> and changes the topic everynow and then
18:28:22 <AnMaster> how silly
18:28:23 <tusho> it's a 7-order markov chain
18:28:42 <tusho> also AnMaster lament, ihope, and asiekierka like it, and I think more
18:28:42 <ais523> tusho: that'll effectively be random sentences then, I think
18:28:43 <tusho> so shush :)
18:28:57 <ais523> because it's unlikely that two sentences would have 7 words in common
18:28:59 <tusho> its main purpose is to keep the topic fresh, though
18:29:04 <tusho> meanwhile...
18:29:22 <ais523> how far back does it read the logs?
18:29:25 <tusho> Lisp Zealots are Offensive and Ironic Simultaneously, a Play in 2 lines
18:29:26 <tusho> [[ > Quick background from the newb:
18:29:27 -!- AnMaster has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | do not remove this | that's awesome!.
18:29:36 <tusho> Lousy spelling.  Should be "fom the t-r-o-l-l". ]]
18:29:37 <tusho> optbot!
18:29:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hm..
18:29:54 <tusho> ais523: all of them
18:29:59 <tusho> december 2002 - yesterday
18:30:01 <AnMaster> tusho, broken, what if we have something important in topic?
18:30:09 <tusho> AnMaster: we don't
18:30:17 <ais523> tusho: we have done in the past
18:30:18 <AnMaster> tusho, we had when ais523 won that thing
18:30:19 <tusho> and nobody cares
18:30:20 <tusho> :)
18:30:26 <tusho> AnMaster: so just put it back in whenever it changes the topic
18:30:27 <tusho> or someone makes it
18:30:34 <tusho> it's only once every 6 hours
18:30:43 <ais523> I think we can get a chanop to topic-log if there is something important there, though
18:30:48 <tusho> yes
18:30:53 <tusho> lament put that note in anyway iirc
18:30:55 <ais523> probably needed in this channel the way people change the topic at a whim
18:31:16 <tusho> ais523: optbot was basically a reaction to that - why do *we* need to find interesting stuff to put in it? :D
18:31:16 <optbot> tusho: guess pointers get around that pretty well
18:31:21 <tusho> optbot: no. that makes no sense
18:31:21 <optbot> tusho: Yes.
18:31:24 <tusho> :(
18:31:33 <ais523> tusho: every time you have an argument with that bot the bot wins
18:31:34 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:31:47 <tusho> ais523: it always seems to get the last word in...
18:31:48 <tusho> :P
18:32:16 <AnMaster> <ais523> tusho: every time you have an argument with that bot the bot wins <-- :D
18:32:28 <tusho> optbot: lose the argument
18:32:28 <optbot> tusho: any other suggestions for an inexpensive portable esolang development device?
18:32:32 <tusho> optbot: I said lose the argument
18:32:32 <optbot> tusho: swallow something?
18:32:36 <tusho> optbot: no
18:32:37 <optbot> tusho: And I'm pretty familiar with Forth
18:32:40 <tusho> ok let's try this
18:32:50 <tusho> optbot: Reply to this message.
18:32:50 <optbot> tusho: i have decided to make major/minor second a "skip the next interval" instruction
18:32:51 <tusho> HA
18:32:53 <tusho> I HAVE POWERS
18:32:56 <psygnisfive|away> kghkdfhg
18:33:02 -!- psygnisfive|away has changed nick to psygnisfive.
18:33:02 <ais523> optbot invented Fugue?
18:33:02 <optbot> ais523: looks nicer on the os x buttons
18:33:10 <tusho> oklopol: kghkdfhg
18:33:12 <tusho> er
18:33:14 <tusho> optbot: kghkdfhg
18:33:14 <optbot> tusho: shows the pre-processes code
18:33:19 <tusho> optbot: weird command name
18:33:19 <optbot> tusho: i don't really care what iterators should be used for, all i know is i didn't want to do that functionally, but now i have to
18:33:40 <ais523> tusho: one important thing to note here: optbot is spending most of its time talking about esolangs
18:33:40 <optbot> ais523: well yeah, pmatching is the hard part
18:33:54 <ais523> which means that this channel is mostly about esolangs regardless of what you say
18:33:56 <tusho> ais523: oh shut up you :)
18:33:58 <tusho> here
18:33:59 <tusho> look at this
18:34:22 <AnMaster> optbot, pmatching?
18:34:22 <optbot> AnMaster: think i got it
18:34:28 <AnMaster> well what is pmatching?
18:34:38 <ais523> pattern matching, presumably
18:35:34 <tusho> so optbot
18:35:34 <optbot> tusho: no Unicode?
18:35:39 <tusho> shut up about unicode optbot
18:35:40 <optbot> tusho: ?listauth
18:35:42 <tusho> what optbot
18:35:42 <optbot> tusho: Hi
18:35:45 <tusho> hi optbot
18:35:45 <optbot> tusho: liftM2 f l1 l2 = concatMap (\x -> map (\y -> f x y) l1) l2
18:35:47 <tusho> no optbot
18:35:47 <optbot> tusho: and because I couldn't see a reason to deny them
18:35:53 <tusho> hmm, it's demented again
18:36:20 <ais523> not demented, just talking Haskell at you
18:36:31 <tusho> optbot: TALKIN' HASKELL AT ME HUH!?!?!
18:36:31 <optbot> tusho: i can't create pink elephants
18:36:34 <ais523> it's a bot, I can't blame it for talking in programming languages rather than English from time to time
18:36:38 <tusho> optbot: no, that's a pretty rare skill
18:36:38 <optbot> tusho: what do you need to crash win xp?
18:36:42 <tusho> optbot: not much
18:36:42 <optbot> tusho: That would take the whole esoteric part out of it.
18:36:48 <tusho> optbot: yeah, totally. win xp is esoteric
18:36:49 <optbot> tusho: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX
18:36:58 <tusho> optbot: oh come on ... don't pick up #esoteric memes...
18:36:58 <optbot> tusho: I am?
18:37:04 <tusho> optbot: Yes. PSOX is/was a meme. (More was.)
18:37:04 <optbot> tusho: hmm
18:37:22 <ais523> tusho: you'll have to stop that, I ended up laughing so loud that the person in charge of this place actually just told me off in RL
18:37:27 <tusho> hahaha
18:37:42 <ais523> talking about crashing Win XP and then optbot compares it to PSOX
18:37:43 <optbot> ais523: hmm?
18:37:50 <ais523> optbot: don't play innocent with me
18:37:50 <optbot> ais523: http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/~sc/BFS.lhs
18:38:00 <Sgeo> lol ais523
18:38:02 <tusho> that meaningless stuff is just a clever ruse
18:38:03 <tusho> :D
18:38:19 <ais523> tusho: no, it's an interesting reminder of #esoteric's history
18:38:35 <Sgeo> PSOX is not crashy! (as far as I know)
18:38:50 <tusho> optbot: is PSOX crashy?
18:38:50 <optbot> tusho: that was an actual question, i don't know what it does
18:38:59 <tusho> optbot: no, *I* wanna know
18:38:59 <optbot> tusho: x
18:39:07 <tusho> optbot: save your kisses. answer my question
18:39:07 <optbot> tusho: why are there so many ...?
18:39:13 <tusho> optbot: ... pink elephants? I dunno.
18:39:13 <optbot> tusho: using bytecode and optimiztions in the interpreter AND coding it in bash IS mad
18:39:15 * Sgeo prepares a lengthy explanation for optbot, and watches everyone hide
18:39:15 <optbot> Sgeo: but they are cool anyhow
18:39:24 <tusho> Sgeo: just. no.
18:39:40 * Sgeo was kidding ofc
18:39:42 <tusho> :D
18:39:45 <tusho> brb 30mins
18:39:57 -!- jix has joined.
18:40:01 <ais523> Sgeo: leave that explanation for AnMaster, e's good both at optimisation and at bash
18:40:12 <tusho> ais523: psox has nothing to do with bash
18:40:19 <tusho> or optimisation
18:40:24 <tusho> brb 30m
18:40:28 <ais523> I was referring to <optbot> tusho: using bytecode and optimiztions in the interpreter AND coding it in bash IS mad
18:40:28 <optbot> ais523: because it didn't fail
18:40:33 <tusho> ah
18:40:33 <tusho> :D
18:40:37 <tusho> haha
18:40:38 <ais523> worse than failure...
18:40:45 <tusho> optbot: do you like me
18:40:45 <optbot> tusho: ah, you mean jumping to negative funge-space?
18:40:50 <tusho> optbot: no... I mean like liking m
18:40:50 <optbot> tusho: 61803398874989484815
18:40:50 <tusho> e
18:40:56 <tusho> optbot: boolean plz
18:40:56 <optbot> tusho: Reprap replicates!
18:41:00 <tusho> fuck you :(
18:41:00 <tusho> brb
18:41:08 <AnMaster> Sgeo, what?
18:41:25 <Sgeo> AnMaster, ais523 is the one who pinged you
18:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I think it can solve any solveable problem.
18:41:42 <AnMaster> ais523, what?
18:41:48 <ais523> I was mentioning how out of all the people here you would be best at "using bytecode and optimiztions in the interpreter AND coding it in bash"
18:41:53 <ais523> which is what optbot was talking about
18:41:53 <optbot> ais523: what? that's my IP! get out of my computer!!!!
18:42:04 <AnMaster> ais523, it may refer to bashfuck
18:42:07 <ais523> optbot: what, 127.0.0.1?
18:42:07 <optbot> ais523: of then you are just making a bad optimization for fun
18:42:45 <AnMaster> ais523, I did some sort of pre-run optimizing, so it resulted in a file where the locations of matching [ and ] were listed and also any +++ combined and such
18:42:51 <AnMaster> it was the only way to get decent speed
18:43:05 <ais523> ah
18:43:15 <ais523> I like the way optbot drags up old topics, it should help to keep the conversation going
18:43:15 <optbot> ais523: lojban is a lot like most languages imo
18:43:19 <AnMaster> ais523, so in effect a sort of byte code I guess
18:43:28 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, makes sense
18:43:43 <Sgeo> ais523, you liked that it dragged up PSOX?
18:43:44 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway precompiling was only way to load lost king at all
18:43:46 <AnMaster> ais523, :P
18:43:51 <Sgeo> j/k
18:43:59 <ais523> Sgeo: I was amused that it dragged it up in a conversation about Win XP
18:44:08 <AnMaster> ais523, the precompiler was coded in "mostly awk" iirc
18:44:14 <AnMaster> may have been some part bash too
18:44:27 * AnMaster searches
18:44:48 <AnMaster> ais523, it is probably in one of the repos at bzr.kuonet.org
18:45:04 <AnMaster> that is the repo browser everyone wanted
18:46:04 <AnMaster> http://bzr.kuonet.org/bashfuck/trunk/annotate/41?file_id=libcompiler.sh-20071030094711-58wlb8wcipp53wze-1
18:46:06 <AnMaster> there it os
18:46:07 <AnMaster> is*
18:46:15 <ais523> ok, thanks
18:47:04 <AnMaster> really this was back in 2007 I think
18:47:11 <AnMaster> so I don't remember code
18:47:17 <ais523> well that's quite recent for optbot, it's dragging stuff up at random
18:47:17 <optbot> ais523: I want to use a base-5 numeral system!
18:47:18 <psygnisfive> im going to be taking a class called Philosophy and Computation this upcoming semester
18:47:22 <psygnisfive> the description for the class is:
18:47:26 <psygnisfive> An investigation of topics at the interface between philosophy and computation, including both (1) philosophy
18:47:27 <psygnisfive> about computers, minds and machines, and (2) hands-on work in robotics and computer modeling as
18:47:28 <psygnisfive> philosophical toys and philosophical tools.  Topics will include the history of computing machinery, conceptual
18:47:31 <psygnisfive> foundations and limits of contemporary computing, computation and consciousness (Descartes, Wittgenstein,
18:47:34 <psygnisfive> Dennett, and Searle), agent-based and social modeling.  There will be extensive hands-on laboratory projects in
18:47:37 <psygnisfive> elementary robotics and Turing machines, as well as work with fuzzy logic software, chaos theory, cellular
18:47:39 <AnMaster> optbot, sure, "ESAB"4(
18:47:40 <optbot> AnMaster: oh.
18:47:40 <psygnisfive> automata and artificial life.
18:47:44 <AnMaster> that should do it optbot!
18:47:44 <optbot> AnMaster: unless you have multiple languages
18:47:54 -!- olsner has joined.
18:47:57 <AnMaster> hey, most of that made some kind of sense
18:48:00 <AnMaster> <optbot> ais523: I want to use a base-5 numeral system!
18:48:01 <optbot> AnMaster: 2 is (:*)
18:48:03 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> optbot, sure, "ESAB"4(
18:48:03 <AnMaster> <optbot> AnMaster: oh.
18:48:03 <optbot> AnMaster: It would be sorta pointless to implement these commands, because they're being used in packet transfer.
18:48:03 <optbot> AnMaster: just D
18:48:10 <AnMaster> hehe
18:48:36 <ais523> AnMaster: well it's talking in both Underload and some weird Funge fingerprint now
18:48:43 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, that makes sense
18:48:57 <ais523> although I don't see how BASE implements packet transfer apart from D
18:48:57 <AnMaster> ais523, well I just told it how to get base 5
18:49:04 <AnMaster> err
18:49:04 <ais523> ah
18:49:07 <AnMaster> it doesn't
18:49:13 <ais523> well, optbot was wrong then
18:49:13 <optbot> ais523: I still don't get one thing about the MIT licence...
18:49:28 <psygnisfive> AnMaster: It'll be cool tho! :D
18:49:34 <psygnisfive> I'm gonna totally ace that class
18:49:47 <psygnisfive> I mean, cmon, hands on work with turing machinese?! I could give them formal definitions in my sleep!
18:49:47 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, well it seems to match what happens in #esoteric quite a bit
18:49:56 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I couldn
18:49:58 <AnMaster> couldn't
18:50:03 <AnMaster> what is the formal defintion
18:50:06 <psygnisfive> turing machinese are each man
18:50:14 <AnMaster> eh?
18:50:17 <Sgeo> How do I search the contents of all text files in a directory for something?
18:50:22 <psygnisfive> single tape turing machines have lets see
18:50:25 * Sgeo realizes the answer
18:50:27 <Sgeo> n/m
18:50:30 <Deewiant> find -name "*.txt" | grep something
18:50:34 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you make *less* sense than that bot now
18:50:37 <Deewiant> +xargs
18:50:39 <ais523> Sgeo: grep something *.txt
18:50:49 <Sgeo> Well, don't know if it's .txt
18:50:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hi, have you see Mike recently on irc? I got some questions about those new fingerprints of his
18:50:51 <psygnisfive> they're a five tuple (S,G,d,q_accept,q_reject)
18:50:52 <ais523> find | xargs would only be needed to search recursively through directories
18:50:55 <AnMaster> I found some bugs in them
18:50:57 <psygnisfive> S being the language alphabet
18:51:00 <AnMaster> in their defs that is
18:51:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: haven't
18:51:01 <psygnisfive> G being the tape alphabet
18:51:10 <ais523> and even then grep -R will search through all text and all binary files, but just say "binary file matches" for binary files
18:51:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, like the regex one doesn't say *what* flavour of regex to use
18:51:14 <ais523> so grep -R something .
18:51:16 <psygnisfive> oh, sorry, there should also be a set Q in there I think
18:51:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it says use POSIX extended if a certain flag is passed, but not what to use by default
18:51:46 <AnMaster> any idea how to get in contact with him?
18:51:55 <psygnisfive> d being something of type SxGxQ -> GxQx{L,R}
18:51:56 <ais523> grep -RI something . searches only text files
18:52:03 <Sgeo> -RI?
18:52:03 <ais523> Sgeo: ^
18:52:10 <ais523> Sgeo: -R to search recursively through dirs
18:52:12 <psygnisfive> q_accept, q_reject elements of Q
18:52:14 <ais523> -I to skip binary files
18:52:21 <Sgeo> it's R not r?
18:52:23 <ais523> that's capital I not lowercase l
18:52:24 <ais523> and yes R
18:52:24 * Sgeo stops what he was doing
18:52:32 <Sgeo> ty
18:52:46 <ais523> ah, i just checked, both -r and -R do the same thing
18:53:00 <ais523> which is a bit silly really but useful if you can't remember
18:53:19 <Deewiant> you can't restrict what files you search that way though, it goes through everything
18:53:25 <Deewiant> (apart from what it thinks is binary)
18:53:26 <Sgeo> Well, the I is still useful
18:53:30 <ais523> Deewiant: it goes through all text files which is what he asked for
18:53:42 <ais523> and yes, you'd use find if you wanted to do something more complicated
18:53:44 <psygnisfive> then TM reads a character off the tape transitions to some new state, writes a character to the tape, and moves L or R
18:53:44 <Deewiant> aye, but it might also go through a multi-gigabyte log file he didn't want ;-)
18:53:47 <Sgeo> I'm looking for a playlist I made a long time ago
18:53:55 <psygnisfive> until it either reaches an accept or reject state
18:54:07 <psygnisfive> AnMaster, I'm fairly certain thats the formal definition
18:54:12 <Sgeo> ...I remember the name, why don't I just use that?
18:54:17 <psygnisfive> I might've added an extra alphabet in there. e.e
18:54:23 <Sgeo> what's the thing for finding by name again?
18:54:34 <AnMaster> k
18:54:58 <Sgeo> sgeo@ubuntu:/oldfiles$ find -name "?utation*"
18:55:11 <ais523> Sgeo: use slocate if you have it, it's much faster
18:55:18 <ais523> slocate utation
18:55:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no idea about how to reach Mike Reily (spelling?)?
18:55:27 <psygnisfive> AnMaster: It's really not that interesting a model, to be honest. the simplest models do simple computations in obvious ways
18:55:28 <ais523> I think ubuntu has it by default, not sure though
18:55:47 <Sgeo> How do I restrict slocate to a certain directory and its subdirectories?
18:55:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: e-mail
18:55:59 <psygnisfive> for instance, equality checking on two items like this: 00011101#00011101uuuu...
18:56:16 <Sgeo> Spelling would also help
18:56:21 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho|away.
18:56:26 <psygnisfive> checking that the binary strings are the same is quite simple, really. almost human like.
18:56:34 <ais523> Sgeo: slocate's sufficiently fast that I normally just grep its output
18:56:38 <psygnisfive> cross off the first 0 and transition into a "match a 0" state
18:56:46 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:56:48 <ais523> because it's searching an index it builds in a cronjob, not the filesystem
18:56:49 <psygnisfive> then move to the first not-crossed off symbol after #
18:56:55 <psygnisfive> if its 0 cross it off, otherwise reject
18:57:07 <psygnisfive> then move back to the first not crossed off symbol before the #
18:57:11 <psygnisfive> and repeat
18:57:17 <Sgeo> In a grep, how do I get rid of say, anything with cache in it?
18:57:20 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
18:57:30 -!- jix has joined.
18:57:39 <Deewiant> Sgeo: grep -v cache
18:57:50 <Deewiant> (inVert I guess)
18:57:53 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:58:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah I don't think I have his address
18:58:07 <Sgeo> Can I use that in the same grep to look for oldfiles, or should I chain greps?
18:58:08 <Deewiant> not on the web site?
18:58:10 -!- jix has joined.
18:58:15 <ais523> Sgeo: chain them
18:58:17 <Deewiant> Sgeo: I just chain them
18:58:23 <Deewiant> there might be a way to do it in one
18:58:25 <AnMaster> Sgeo, /etc/updatedb.conf for me to restrict locate indexing
18:58:38 <Sgeo> tyvm all
18:58:45 <psygnisfive> Anmaster: Pretty simple, ey?
18:58:48 <Sgeo> $ slocate utation | grep oldfiles | grep -v cache
18:58:59 <ais523> I remember a while ago I was given a task to do which effectively was to download, compile and run certain programs that were prewritten and observe their results
18:59:12 <ais523> it was such a mechanical task that I went and wrote a Makefile to do it
18:59:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: mikehriley@hotmail.com
18:59:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, thanks
18:59:42 <ais523> also, one of the programs was so inefficient that I went and recoded it in bash + standard Unix utilities, and ran my recoded version, all while the original program was running
19:00:10 <Sgeo> Still nothing found
19:00:36 <Deewiant> Sgeo: slocate searches for filenames with utation in them
19:00:56 <Deewiant> do you want to search through filenames or file contents?
19:01:07 * Sgeo is doing both
19:01:14 <Sgeo> Found it
19:01:19 <Sgeo> Maybe
19:01:24 <Deewiant> that command searches only through filenames
19:01:27 <ais523> ah, well done
19:01:32 <Sgeo> erm
19:01:47 <Sgeo> Wow, I'm glad that that path did not successfully enter this channel, it has my RL name in it
19:02:01 <ais523> although on recent Ubuntu tracker-search-tool will search contents much the same way slocate searches filenames
19:02:05 <Deewiant> and what a tragedy that would have been
19:02:21 <Sgeo> No, no that file wasn't it
19:02:55 * Sgeo needs his grep to work
19:03:26 <Sgeo> Well, not needs, I guess. Want
19:03:31 <Sgeo> It's just a playlist
19:04:03 * Sgeo misses Mutation!
19:04:40 <Sgeo> And no, mutation is not just the name of a playlist
19:04:57 <Sgeo> http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Mutation
19:05:31 -!- tusho|away has changed nick to tusho.
19:06:49 <tusho> worth noting -
19:06:51 * Sgeo knew all the puzzles, and I was once able to help a Teacher's Aide because her homework was similar to one of the puzzles
19:06:58 <tusho> i invited AnMaster here
19:06:59 <tusho> :)
19:07:13 <tusho> I was in #bash asking for help, he mentioned he was writing a bf interp, I helped him in /query
19:07:21 <tusho> and then told him to come here
19:07:29 <tusho> i was not aware of his posix_fnature.
19:08:51 <tusho> hmm
19:08:54 <tusho> tusho|away was automatic
19:08:58 <tusho> silly linkinus
19:09:22 <ais523> the |away can be useful, though
19:09:59 * Sgeo makes slocate case-insensitive
19:10:01 * tusho automates "hi ais523"
19:10:10 <tusho> linkinus is scriptable with applescript :p
19:10:12 * tusho looks at the examples
19:10:25 <AnMaster> tusho, you didn't?
19:10:29 <AnMaster> or did you?
19:10:30 -!- asiekierka has quit (Connection timed out).
19:10:31 <AnMaster> maybe
19:10:32 <AnMaster> can't remember
19:10:33 <tusho> i didn't
19:10:35 <tusho> I'm writing a script to
19:10:42 <Sgeo> http://web.archive.org/web/20050113023358/www.mutation3d.net/chapter1_en.jsp
19:10:44 <tusho> 11:01:47 <Sgeo> Wow, I'm glad that that path did not successfully enter this channel, it has my RL name in it
19:10:49 <tusho> i think I remember that
19:10:52 <AnMaster> tusho, about the invite I mean
19:11:02 <tusho> AnMaster ?
19:11:06 <AnMaster> <tusho> i invited AnMaster here
19:11:08 <AnMaster> is that true?
19:11:15 <tusho> yes
19:11:16 <tusho> i did
19:11:17 <AnMaster> k
19:11:26 <AnMaster> tusho, must have been back at bashfuck time?
19:11:37 <tusho> yes
19:11:37 <AnMaster> or?
19:11:38 <AnMaster> ah
19:11:58 <AnMaster> I remember speaking to someone in /msg who was also writing a brain fuck interpreter, one in C
19:12:06 <AnMaster> about data structures he would use
19:12:32 <AnMaster> some thing about linked list with down nodes for loops (which is pretty much what I did in Def-BF)
19:12:55 <tusho> yay, I just re-discovered sgeo's IRL name
19:13:46 -!- ais523 has left (?).
19:13:46 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:13:58 <ais523> hmm, obviously you haven't automated a hi yet
19:14:20 <tusho> no
19:14:24 <tusho> I'm figuring out how to get that event
19:19:16 <ais523> incidentally, everyone: it's off-topic but I find http://entertainment.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/08/1347212&from=rss really amusing
19:19:22 <AnMaster> automated what?
19:19:32 <ais523> someone wrote a program for the iPhone costing $1000 which had no purpose but to prove you could afford it
19:19:46 <tusho> ooold
19:19:49 <tusho> that was on reddit yesterday...
19:19:50 <tusho> :)
19:19:54 <ais523> AnMaster: the say-hi-first game looks like it's being automated
19:20:09 <ais523> tusho: ah, I don't read reddit regularly, that's the first I've seen of it, and 1 day isn't really old
19:20:12 <AnMaster> ais523, you got it scripted yet?
19:20:24 <tusho> AnMaster: he doesn't script i
19:20:24 <tusho> t
19:20:25 <tusho> I am
19:20:29 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I was halfway through writing a bot to do it when I decided I couldn't be bothered
19:20:33 <AnMaster> tusho, that is cheating
19:20:38 <tusho> AnMaster: who cares
19:20:49 <tusho> AnMaster: i have your new nick - captain_obvious
19:24:08 <tusho> On being able to script people joining the channel:
19:24:08 <tusho> [19:23:43] <Fedaykin|MBP> that is one of the major features planed for the next release
19:24:10 <tusho> Enterprisey.
19:24:38 <psygnisfive> enterprisey?
19:24:46 <AnMaster> $ grep -E '^.{4}$' /usr/share/dict/words | wc -l
19:24:46 <AnMaster> 5110
19:24:48 <AnMaster> interesting
19:24:48 <psygnisfive> you need to scale that technology across the enterprise, net net.
19:25:15 <tusho> [19:24:22] <Fedaykin|MBP> there is no system in place for inbound actions just yet
19:25:19 <AnMaster> I got an idea
19:25:24 <AnMaster> pick a 4 letter word
19:25:28 <AnMaster> make a matching fingerprint
19:25:36 <psygnisfive> open the kimono and develop this paradigm, but don't try to boil the ocean!
19:25:37 <tusho> so colloquy just generally sucks, apart from scripting at which it rocks, and linkinus is ok, apart from scripting at which it sucks
19:25:37 <tusho> grrrrrrr
19:26:11 <Sgeo> Circe has a scripting mechanism
19:26:21 <tusho> and happens to be unusable
19:26:36 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you think?
19:27:00 <Sgeo> No, I'm not using Circe now. Why would I use a client that wasn't developed in who knows how long, and also illegally public-domained?
19:27:03 <ais523> AnMaster: seems interesting, how are you going to get a random 4 letter word though?
19:27:20 <tusho> ais523: he just said
19:27:23 <AnMaster> ais523,  grep -E '^.{4}$' /usr/share/dict/words
19:27:27 <tusho> [19:24:46] <AnMaster> $ grep -E '^.{4}$' /usr/share/dict/words | wc -l
19:27:27 <ais523> ah
19:27:32 <AnMaster> then pick a random one from that
19:27:37 <AnMaster> use awk or whatever maybe
19:27:48 <AnMaster> anyway I don't know what half of those words mean
19:28:07 <AnMaster> "yawl" or "trow"
19:28:16 <AnMaster> aspell like them though
19:28:29 <AnMaster> any of you know what those words are?
19:28:38 * Sgeo murders Circe for not working just when I wanted to demonstrate that it wasn't broken
19:28:46 <Deewiant> a yawl is a boat
19:28:55 <ais523> a "trow" is sort of like a troll, but from a different mythology
19:28:56 <Deewiant> finnish "jolla"
19:29:06 <Deewiant> ais523: isn't that just in the game Myth? :-P
19:29:27 <ais523> Deewiant: I've only seen it in games, but games other than that one so presumably they're getting it from a common source
19:29:48 <Deewiant> that common source may also be a game or similar, though
19:29:57 <Deewiant> I doubt it comes from any real-world myths
19:30:34 <ais523> Deewiant: there are a lot of real-world myths around
19:30:45 <Deewiant> dictionary.com says "trow" is a verb, means to believe
19:30:49 <Deewiant> german "trauen" I guess
19:30:53 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trow says it's a sort of boat
19:30:55 <Deewiant> ais523: aye
19:31:07 <tusho> ais523: hahahahaha, #linkinus are saying that I should just write a bot.
19:31:11 <tusho> that ... would not work in this acse.
19:31:17 <Deewiant> but still, having seen it only in games makes me doubt its origin
19:31:17 <ais523> tusho: well, I was going to
19:31:25 <tusho> ais523: but it'd run on your irc client
19:31:35 <ais523> no, I was going to write a separate one
19:31:41 <ais523> Konversation doesn't script afaict
19:31:44 <tusho> it does
19:31:44 <Deewiant> ah, the orkney and shetland islands
19:31:48 <Deewiant> obscure much
19:31:51 <ais523> it runs external programs instead
19:31:56 <tusho> ais523: what browser(s) do you have there?
19:32:11 <ais523> tusho: firefox, epiphany, konqueror, w3m
19:32:13 <ais523> probably others too
19:32:15 <ais523> also nc
19:32:24 <tusho> ah, good. Could you look at http://91.105.115.23/?
19:32:41 <tusho> i'd like to know that it works on most everything (I know it works on IE7! First time!)
19:32:45 <tusho> and that it also looks nice :P
19:33:19 <ais523> it seems to work on Konq but there's a lot of blackspace at the top of the page (I would say "whitespace", but...)
19:33:36 <tusho> ais523: bluespace actually
19:33:41 <tusho> and there's meant to be
19:33:41 <ais523> also the colour scheme's badly affected by LCD colour parallax
19:33:50 <ais523> it can be either very black or very blue depending on the angle I look at it at
19:33:51 <tusho> the text is meant to start around where the bloom is
19:33:57 <tusho> you can see the bloom right
19:34:01 <ais523> tusho: why? it means I have to scroll when my window isn't full-size
19:34:05 <ais523> tusho: at some screen angles, not others
19:34:17 <tusho> ais523: uh, it doesn't start very far down
19:34:34 <tusho> 185px down
19:34:36 <ais523> the bluespace is about the same size as the first paragraph
19:34:53 <tusho> anyway, it's because it looks nicer this way :)
19:34:56 <tusho> and yeah
19:34:58 <tusho> that's correct.
19:35:02 <ais523> tusho: not in a small window it doesn't
19:35:11 <tusho> ais523: that'd have to be a pretty darn small window
19:35:14 <tusho> unusable, even
19:35:15 <ais523> maybe you should try to centre it in the window or something
19:35:20 <ais523> tusho: small but not unusable]
19:35:22 <ais523> for most things
19:35:31 <tusho> also it's not centered
19:35:39 <tusho> it's nearer the top
19:35:42 <ais523> tusho: I know it isn't, I'm suggesting centring would probably work better
19:35:50 <tusho> ais523: not from a design point of view :-P
19:35:53 <ais523> and even maximised it's nearer the bottom on this screen
19:35:58 <ais523> because you waste so much space at the top
19:36:04 <ais523> on Konq, at least
19:36:09 <tusho> methinks my css is making more space for you
19:36:11 <tusho> can I have a screeny?
19:36:24 <ais523> let me try it on Firefox first
19:37:04 <ais523> no better with a small window, but Firefox's default window size is bigger
19:37:27 <ais523> wasting 185px of vertical space is inexcusable really, some computers only have 480px vertical space altogether and will use much of it for toolbars
19:37:33 <AnMaster> ais523, I agree
19:37:35 <tusho> i still don't see how your window could be small enough for that -shrug-
19:37:42 <ais523> I have 800px vertical by default
19:37:45 <tusho> yes
19:37:47 <tusho> it should fit fine
19:37:48 <ais523> and a half-screen-height window is common for me
19:37:51 <tusho> even with toolbars
19:37:57 <ais523> which gives me only 400px minus toolbars
19:38:07 <ais523> which means your text starts more than halfway down the screen and doesn't finish onscreen
19:38:10 <AnMaster> ais523, it works great in lynx ;P
19:38:16 <ais523> AnMaster: it would do
19:38:30 <AnMaster> tusho, why is there a small dotted rectangle in front of the header
19:38:36 <tusho> AnMaster: get unicode fonts
19:38:38 <ais523> 185 px is a /massive/ amount to waste
19:38:43 <AnMaster> ais523, I agree
19:38:50 <tusho> AnMaster: you've already said you agree
19:38:57 <tusho> you don't have to parrot off "I agree" every time something is re-stated
19:39:18 <AnMaster> tusho, list some fonts I have and I can get unicode fonts you like
19:39:30 <AnMaster> like dejavu or bitstream vera sans
19:39:38 <tusho> AnMaster: it should work fine.
19:39:44 <tusho> i don't know what's up with your syste
19:39:45 <tusho> m
19:40:11 <tusho> AnMaster: you have lucida grande on there
19:40:13 <tusho> so it should display it fine
19:40:21 <tusho> i know lucida grande does that char
19:40:25 <AnMaster> tusho, well not installed on this one
19:40:30 <AnMaster> I'm not on my desktop
19:40:36 <tusho> AnMaster: have you got a unicode font?
19:40:38 <AnMaster> I'm on a PDA running linux
19:40:41 <tusho> span {
19:40:41 <tusho>     font-family: "Lucida Grande", "Arial Unicode MS", sans-serif;
19:40:41 <tusho> }
19:40:51 <tusho> should fall back to a font supporting that char
19:40:56 <AnMaster> it does have bitstream vera sans, helvetica and a few more
19:41:05 <tusho> then I have no idea
19:41:16 <ais523> tusho: ais523@eso-std.org:/home/ais523/ehird-185-stupidity.png
19:41:18 <ais523> there's your screenshot
19:41:26 <ais523> with my default Konq window size
19:41:31 <AnMaster> tusho, standard fallback font seems to be arial for some odd reason
19:41:35 <AnMaster> guess it is non-unicode
19:41:44 <ais523> AnMaster: Arial used to be the default because it was first in alphabetical order
19:41:54 <AnMaster> ais523, hm?
19:41:55 <ais523> and Arial and Arial Unicode are different fonts for some inexplicable reason
19:42:03 <ais523> AnMaster: back in the days of windows 3.1
19:42:10 <AnMaster> ais523, this runs Linux
19:42:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: did you mail Mike already, btw
19:42:22 <AnMaster> it got ms fonts for some reason
19:42:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes I did
19:42:28 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.
19:42:30 <Deewiant> alright
19:42:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about default regex flavour in REXP
19:42:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and about test suites
19:42:45 <Deewiant> I just realized I had a question for him and figured you might ask it for me if you hadn't
19:42:51 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, maybe they used the same fallback as win3.1 deliberately but I doubt it
19:43:04 <AnMaster> maybe
19:43:06 <Deewiant> namely, is D meant to delete dirs or reflect on them
19:43:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah you mail him too then
19:43:26 <Deewiant> since evidently it's not implemented in RC/Funge :-P
19:43:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway if you want to do recursive delete you have issues
19:43:38 <AnMaster> and I won't code that
19:43:44 <Deewiant> issues?
19:43:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, complex code
19:43:56 <Deewiant> not really...
19:44:01 <AnMaster> I do not wish to implement recursive rm
19:44:17 <Deewiant> it's like 10 lines
19:44:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still
19:44:32 <AnMaster> I just call unlink and reflects if that fails
19:44:39 <tusho> Deewiant: there's not a posix_ function for recursive deletion
19:44:39 <Deewiant> I know
19:44:44 <Deewiant> tusho: ah, true
19:44:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but I'd still like to know the intended behaviour
19:44:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you do? you checked on bzr.kuonet.org or what?
19:45:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you told me
19:45:14 <AnMaster> ah yes...
19:45:18 <Deewiant> :-P
19:45:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually I haven't tested my D, waiting for mycology to test it
19:46:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as for more extensive test suite for TURT, I don't think I will have time
19:49:19 <AnMaster> is it possible to make a brainfuck complete language where it is impossible to make quines?
19:50:25 <Deewiant> brainfuck complete?
19:50:48 <Deewiant> what is that, like turing complete but not? :-P
19:50:51 <ais523> Deewiant: capable of doing anything BF can do, so Turing complete and can also do IO as well as BF
19:51:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, turing complete + any stdio like brainfuck
19:51:16 <Deewiant> "IO as well as BF" where BF is?
19:51:21 <Deewiant> or right
19:51:23 <Deewiant> misread that
19:51:35 <Deewiant> and hmm
19:51:37 <Deewiant> I doubt it
19:53:00 <Sgeo> I'm starting to think user-made playlists are stored in the registry
19:53:09 <tusho> Sgeo: ?
19:53:32 <Sgeo> For the Yamaha something-or-other software synth and MIDI player
19:53:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about a language that always append some (random?) extra chars at the end of each lines?
19:53:58 <Deewiant> at the end of what lines
19:54:15 <AnMaster> output lines
19:54:30 <AnMaster> that are not valid in the program code
19:54:31 <Deewiant> that doesn't imply BF-compatible output to me :-P
19:54:41 <AnMaster> hm true
19:54:50 -!- dogface has joined.
19:55:26 <tusho> ais523: seen my concatenative lang?
19:55:30 <ais523> no
19:55:35 <Deewiant> tusho: got a spec or impl yet?
19:55:38 <tusho> no
19:55:39 <tusho> :P
19:55:52 <tusho> ais523: two programs:
19:55:53 <tusho> 0 .n 0 1 [dup [+ .n] dip swap] loop
19:55:55 <tusho> infinite fibonacci
19:56:07 -!- asiekierka has joined.
19:56:08 <tusho> stdin chars reverse [.] each
19:56:15 <tusho> reverses stdin char-by-char
19:56:15 <asiekierka> hi
19:56:33 <ais523> how does that differ from Joy?
19:56:34 <asiekierka> Can i do the optbot topic change
19:56:35 <optbot> asiekierka: & doubleplop
19:56:36 <ais523> and hi asiekierka
19:57:00 <ais523> hm... what does the .n do?
19:57:01 <tusho> ais523: it's more awesome :)
19:57:12 <tusho> .n is pretty much: . "\n" .
19:57:17 <tusho> where . is the generic print function
19:57:22 <ais523> ah
19:57:38 <dogface> The idea of a "best non-optimizing compiler" is kind of interesting. If I wanted to translate between BF and BF-with-an-[-]-instruction, it'd be obvious how to do it: replace [-] with the instruction, and vice versa.
19:57:41 <ais523> hmm... you have your own reverse function
19:57:50 <tusho> er, what do you mean
19:57:58 <tusho> anyway it's more practical than joy (e.g. I hope to have an easy curses-like thing), but it isn't like factor
19:58:00 <ais523> in Overload translated to your notation, reverse would be written as [concat] combine
19:58:03 <tusho> branches off in a different direction
19:58:11 <dogface> You could easily optimize before compiling as easily as you could optimize afterward.
19:58:12 <tusho> ais523: perhaps that's how it's implemented? :)
19:58:17 <ais523> could be
19:58:25 <asiekierka> Is there a 2-command BF?
19:58:27 <tusho> ais523: also "stdin chars" is very elegant
19:58:30 <tusho> it doesn't do what you think
19:58:36 <ais523> asiekierka: I don't know of one which doesn't cheat
19:58:41 <tusho> basically, stdin implements all the list stuff - like "each", "map" etc
19:58:44 <tusho> and even things like "reverse"
19:58:46 <asiekierka> what about ones that DO cheat?
19:58:47 <tusho> but it does them line-based
19:58:58 <tusho> "chars" takes an IO object and returns a new one, but that has its list operations operate on the chars
19:58:59 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:59:02 <ais523> asiekierka: look at Whirl (I think that's how it's spelt)
19:59:08 <tusho> there'll also be one that lets you do it in blocks of N chars
19:59:11 <tusho> and all sorts of stuff like that
19:59:13 <ais523> that gives you the general idea of how to do it by cheating
19:59:25 <asiekierka> Oh, that sort of cheating... No.
19:59:30 <asiekierka> Something else maybe?
19:59:40 <ais523> probably it can be done by cheating but less blatantly than that
19:59:53 <asiekierka> I think i can do a 1-command BF.
20:00:16 <tusho> no
20:00:18 <dogface> No you can't.
20:00:18 <tusho> that's impossible
20:00:23 <asiekierka> 1 command, 2 symbol.
20:00:25 <tusho> the only one-char language is the encoding of language X into unary
20:00:29 <asiekierka> 2 symbols*
20:00:36 -!- jix has joined.
20:00:42 <asiekierka> That's something like unary, but not quite it. Smaller, mainly.
20:00:54 <dogface> How does it have one command but two symbols?
20:01:02 <asiekierka> command is $. symbols are $ and space.
20:01:06 <asiekierka> Table: <>+-[],.
20:01:11 <dogface> What does space do?
20:01:16 <ais523> dogface: e isn't counting NOP
20:01:18 <asiekierka> separation
20:01:28 <ais523> just like 1L allegedly only has one command
20:01:37 <ais523> but as NOPs actually do something they aren't even NOPs
20:01:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about TERM, you said you can't use ncurses?
20:01:52 <tusho> you could probably get a one-command language if all invalid commands were ignored
20:01:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is that right?
20:01:56 <tusho> nobody says that brainfuck is infinite command
20:02:04 <asiekierka> If the $ is odd, it selects the command by using the table, where the position is the count of $ divided by 2. (the table is 1-8)
20:02:10 <asiekierka> For example, ,[.,]
20:02:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes
20:02:12 <asiekierka> will be
20:02:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then I'd say it is impossible to implement in a portable way
20:02:18 <ais523> tusho: all OISCs are one-command langs, they have one command and lots of arguments
20:02:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: how so
20:02:27 <ais523> also Wait is arguably a zero-command lang
20:02:29 <tusho> ais523: well, I guess
20:02:31 <tusho> I mean iwthout arguments
20:02:32 <Deewiant> you do realize that curses is implemented as well, right? :-P
20:02:42 <asiekierka> if $ is even, the command is executed.
20:02:47 <tusho> Deewiant: No.
20:02:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I would have to implement all the different escape codes for different terminals
20:02:50 <asiekierka> ,[.,] is
20:02:50 <tusho> He uses posix_curses.
20:02:53 <tusho> It's built into the CPU.
20:02:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that's what termcap is for
20:03:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also on some cursor addressing doesn't work in normal mode
20:03:02 <tusho> it has a Curses Chip.
20:03:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which means blanking is needed in between
20:03:13 <asiekierka> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ $$$$$$$$$$ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ $$$$$$$$$$$$ $
20:03:28 <tusho> asiekierka: that's totally 2 commands
20:03:28 <tusho> :)
20:03:30 <dogface> But that's cheating. :-)
20:03:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so got a solution?
20:03:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: doesn't termcap handle that as well
20:03:39 <asiekierka> But better than Whirl
20:03:42 <asiekierka> It's 1 command!
20:03:44 <Deewiant> I'm not at all sure what you actually mean by that
20:03:51 <ais523> asiekierka: seen Black?
20:03:52 <asiekierka> the whitespaces only separate, they aren't even NOPs!
20:03:53 <ais523> that also has one command
20:03:57 <asiekierka> It's 1 command, 2 symbols!
20:04:01 <ais523> with no args
20:04:02 <Deewiant> but I would imagine that termcap would handle all such things
20:04:03 <asiekierka> Space is only counted as a symbol
20:04:04 <asiekierka> Heh.
20:04:07 <ais523> again cheating slightly, but I think it's elegant anyway
20:04:11 <tusho> optbot: Thoughts?
20:04:11 <optbot> tusho: you can assign separate dl speeds for individual files
20:04:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, and that blanks screen on all consoles when I enable cursor adressing mode
20:04:16 <asiekierka> You could remove the odd-even thing
20:04:18 <tusho> optbot: *Relevant* thoughts?
20:04:18 <optbot> tusho: i can't believe it
20:04:20 <asiekierka> minimalizing the code to
20:04:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so it doesn't help at all
20:04:25 <tusho> optbot: what, a 1-command lang?
20:04:25 <optbot> tusho: EgoBot seems not to be here at the moment, which is a pity as it knows more languages than bsmnt_bot does
20:04:34 <tusho> optbot: what lang do you need?
20:04:34 <optbot> tusho: __copyright__="Copyright 2006 Andrew Pennebaker"
20:04:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because I only use the termcap part of ncurses
20:04:38 <tusho> optbot: hmm, python?
20:04:38 <optbot> tusho: And "You never know what you'll find over the <rainbow>"? x_x
20:04:40 <AnMaster> not the full thing
20:04:43 <tusho> optbot: what
20:04:43 <optbot> tusho: ahh
20:04:45 <tusho> optbot: unf
20:04:45 <optbot> tusho: for -1 -> 0
20:04:48 <tusho> okay
20:04:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: don't use ncurses, that's what clears the screen
20:04:59 <asiekierka> $$$$$$$ $$$$$ $$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$ $$$$$$ - when removing the odd/even thing, executing immediately and removing the /2
20:05:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no it isn't
20:05:04 <asiekierka> :)
20:05:14 <asiekierka> That's unary with separations
20:05:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is the enter_ca_mode that does
20:05:26 <dogface> Define a command as a function from integer to integer, with some provision for goto.
20:05:31 <AnMaster> which is needed for cursor adressing
20:05:34 <ais523> Deewiant: on DOS you could get around that by doing a screen capture first
20:05:34 <AnMaster> addressing*
20:05:44 <ais523> but I don't think text-mode screen captures are possible on a VT100, at least not easy
20:05:44 <asiekierka> Also, what command has the most commands, all of which must be 1-char/1-pixel?
20:05:44 <tusho> The annoying use of ツ as a smiley. DISCUSS.
20:05:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which is needed by G
20:05:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://bzr.kuonet.org/cfunge/trunk/annotate/337?file_id=term.c-20080715223140-lsa1tw5728k7pfxs-3
20:05:52 <asiekierka>  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ
20:05:55 <asiekierka>  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ  ツ
20:05:58 <ais523> and everything emulates VT100 so you don't need to implement anything else nowadays
20:06:00 <asiekierka> Or wait.
20:06:13 <tusho> asiekierka I thought you had given up doing things just because people said they were annoying
20:06:14 <tusho> /sigh
20:06:29 <AnMaster> ais523, um, cursor addressing, needs enter_ca_mode/exit_ca_mode
20:06:38 <asiekierka> I just wanted to discuss it!
20:06:50 <ais523> AnMaster: can you do it without clearing the screen first to load curses?
20:06:52 <asiekierka> in Annoying ツ Smiley language i just invented
20:06:58 <tusho> asiekierka: Yeah - by spamming it over and over after I said it was annoying.
20:07:11 <tusho> asiekierka: Protip - Don't do things repeatedly straight after someone says it's annoying.
20:07:12 <asiekierka> you mean before. Also, you said DISCUSS. SO I DISCUSSED it.
20:07:13 <ais523> tusho: what is that character actually?
20:07:16 <tusho> (Perhaps surprisingly,) it's annoying.
20:07:19 <AnMaster> ais523, for god sake as I said three times now, it is not loading curses that cause screen clear, it is enter_ca_mode/exit_ca_mode
20:07:20 <AnMaster> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
20:07:21 <dogface> Define a command as a pair of (function from integer to integer, element of {-1, 0, 1}), where if the right part is 1 and the function returns 0, it jumps to the corresponding -1.
20:07:25 <tusho> ais523: japanese character
20:07:29 <tusho> hirigana or katakana
20:07:38 <dogface> Clearly, it's hiragana.
20:07:40 <dogface> Or katakana.
20:07:45 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, but I've loaded curses, clearing the screen, despite never having heard of enter_ca_mode
20:07:59 <ais523> so maybe it calls it behind the scenes somewhere?
20:07:59 <AnMaster> ais523, depends on what routine you use
20:08:02 <Deewiant> ais523: that's because curses does it internally probably
20:08:02 <AnMaster> I use setup_term
20:08:05 <AnMaster> err
20:08:07 <AnMaster> setupterm
20:08:14 <AnMaster> which doesn't clear screen
20:08:19 <ais523> optbot: ツ
20:08:20 <optbot> ais523: happy birthday!
20:08:27 <AnMaster> initscr would clear it
20:08:32 <tusho> haha
20:08:35 <tusho> optbot: nice try
20:08:36 <optbot> tusho: http://www.blogblog.com/no897/corner_main.gif
20:08:37 <ais523> does optbot know something I don't?
20:08:38 <optbot> ais523: if you give it an empty line you have to give it some input before it'll say it doesn't understand
20:08:40 <AnMaster> which is how you load the full curses
20:08:40 <asiekierka> The annoying use of digits ? through ?. DISCUSS.
20:08:42 <AnMaster> ais523, got that?
20:08:43 <asiekierka> What!?
20:08:45 <asiekierka> Didn't it WORK?
20:08:45 <tusho> optbot: elegant corner.
20:08:45 <optbot> tusho: But does that turn every qubit on the tape to the same value as the current qubit?
20:08:48 <ais523> AnMaster: yes
20:08:51 -!- dogface has left (?).
20:08:59 <AnMaster> ais523, so there is no way around screen clearing
20:09:13 <ais523> AnMaster: can you read from the screen at all before it clears?
20:09:13 <asiekierka> TEST: ?
20:09:19 <AnMaster> ais523, eh?
20:09:26 <AnMaster> ais523, http://bzr.kuonet.org/cfunge/trunk/annotate/337?file_id=term.c-20080715223140-lsa1tw5728k7pfxs-3
20:09:28 <ais523> <TEST> stop nickpinging me!
20:09:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I'm fairly certain that CCBI's TERM didn't clear the screen despite using enter_ca_mode
20:09:48 <tusho> what
20:09:51 <tusho> oh
20:09:51 <tusho> ha
20:09:56 <ais523> in DOS it wasn't too hard to read from the screen
20:09:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that may depend on terminal
20:10:03 <tusho> ais523: I've changed nick to 'i' before
20:10:05 <tusho> and 'the', 'a'
20:10:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: where do you get your enter_ca_mode variable from?
20:10:07 <tusho> it gets really annoying
20:10:10 <tusho> BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP
20:10:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it does in xterm at least
20:10:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, from term.h
20:10:20 <asiekierka> Six...
20:10:29 <ais523> asiekierka: seven now, why?
20:10:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: odd
20:10:38 <bsmntbombdood> why do you people keep talking about bsmnt_bot behind his back
20:10:41 <AnMaster> $ grep enter_ca_mode /usr/include/term.h
20:10:41 <AnMaster> #define enter_ca_mode                  CUR Strings[28]
20:10:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
20:10:45 <asiekierka> Now it's ten. YAY!
20:10:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I did a tigetstr
20:10:51 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: I didn't think we did
20:10:56 <asiekierka> no wait, 9
20:10:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well this is a simpler way to do the same
20:11:00 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: that's optbot
20:11:01 <optbot> tusho: sure where?
20:11:02 <AnMaster> read the man page
20:11:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: tigetstr("smcup")
20:11:04 <asiekierka> NOW it is TEN.
20:11:05 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: he talks about everything
20:11:08 <tusho> optbot: right?
20:11:08 <optbot> tusho: pls give me the names of some backs that u have the login
20:11:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: of what
20:11:12 <tusho> hahaha wow
20:11:14 <tusho> that's from that hacker guy
20:11:18 <tusho> who wanted to pay us to hack banks
20:11:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, man setupterm lists all the related functions here
20:11:25 <tusho> i linked him to tubgirl
20:11:39 <tusho> and he described what it is calmly as if I had merely linked him to the wrong site
20:11:40 <tusho> by mistake
20:11:40 <ais523> tusho: that was mean, stop trying to DOS tubgirl
20:11:46 <tusho> ais523: XD
20:12:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/2JfoKK45.html
20:12:20 <asiekierka> Schrodinger's Message: Until you read it, you have no idea whether it's annoying or not.
20:12:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: aye, but I never saw anything about predefined variables like that
20:12:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and then there are those defines
20:12:30 <asiekierka> EXCEPT if it uses the annoying japanese smiley thing
20:12:37 <tusho> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7547148.stm Nigerian with 84 wives: Don't marry 86 wives.
20:12:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well they just map to those arrays
20:12:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it was mentioned in some man page
20:13:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, they are all listed in man 5 terminfo
20:13:53 <AnMaster> "       The variable is the name by which the programmer (at the terminfo level) accesses the capability."
20:13:57 <ais523> incidentally, did Goatse ever become slashdotted from all the trolling?
20:14:04 <tusho> ais523: hahaha that would be great
20:14:09 <tusho> ais523: incidentally, goatse.cx is now work-safe
20:14:11 <tusho> although just as horrifying
20:14:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there :)
20:14:19 <ais523> work-safe but horrifying?
20:14:21 <tusho> and with the same amount of mental termoil
20:14:26 <tusho> ais523: see for yourself!
20:14:42 <ais523> incidentally I ignore anyone who says anything about goatse like that, the chance that it's a gullibility check is just too high
20:14:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hm, is there anything there to read what's on the screen
20:14:55 <tusho> ais523: it's a picture of bill o'reilly
20:15:02 <ais523> especially if someone tells me it's mentally turmulous, I tend not to look at it
20:15:16 <tusho> ais523: honest
20:15:17 <tusho> it is
20:15:47 <tusho> anyone want to back me up on this one?
20:15:52 <ais523> well, if goatse isn't blocked by the filters here then the IT staff aren't doing their job, so I'm not even going to try
20:16:37 <tusho> ais523: scp eso-std.org:/home/tusho/Picture\ 9.png .
20:16:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I guess not
20:16:49 <AnMaster> brb
20:16:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: in which case, enter_ca_mode is all that can be done
20:17:04 <Deewiant> if it's terminal dependent how it behaves then it is
20:17:29 * ais523 wonders where enwiki's bad-md5-list got to, that's one way of checking for goatse without looking at it
20:17:45 <ais523> but tusho, seriously, I'm not actually interested
20:17:57 <tusho> it only took me 3 seconds to upload that
20:18:02 <tusho> so it wasn't like I had to do much work :P
20:18:10 <ais523> yes, but still
20:18:14 <asiekierka> I'm wondering, is LOLCODE good
20:18:16 <tusho> no
20:18:19 <tusho> N O .
20:18:20 <ais523> it's like you're trying very hard to get me to see goatse, and I'm offended by that
20:18:24 <tusho> ais523: haha
20:18:46 <ais523> asiekierka: no it's just a straightforward imperative lang with no redeeming features
20:19:05 <asiekierka> it's for lamers using l33t, right
20:19:14 <ais523> think BASIC with l33t commands
20:19:27 <tusho> asiekierka: you'd probably like it, as you seem to like everything I say is annoying just on principle...
20:19:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well as you see there is no way I can avoid clearing the screen
20:19:30 <asiekierka> i am using basic...
20:19:37 <asiekierka> ...for the C64.
20:20:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in konsole it even enters a different mode where you can't see the scrollback before, and can't scroll, and then on exit_ca_mode it removes all that and you return to your previous scrollback
20:20:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with no trace of anything in between
20:20:46 <AnMaster> in xterm it just fills a screen with blank
20:20:50 <AnMaster> you can still scroll
20:20:59 <asiekierka> what about INTERCAL?
20:21:03 <AnMaster> and on return from the mode nothing happens
20:21:33 <tusho> asiekierka: ais523 maintains C-INTERCAL
20:21:38 <tusho> so, I'm sure the answer is: intercal sucks
20:22:03 <asiekierka> what's the best esoteric language, then
20:22:04 <ais523> asiekierka: INTERCAL is nowadays quite unlike BASIC, once you try using it for a while you'll see the difference
20:22:10 <ais523> asiekierka: what do you mean by 'best'?
20:22:17 <AnMaster> there is no best
20:22:17 <asiekierka> as in, just the best
20:22:19 <ais523> arguably HQ9+, for accomplishing so much with so little
20:22:22 <AnMaster> there are just different ones
20:22:23 <asiekierka> not only the best command set
20:22:27 <asiekierka> but a large program library
20:22:33 <ais523> it manages to be a huge counterexample to everything whilst being highly amusing
20:22:34 <AnMaster> asiekierka, stop trolling
20:22:41 <AnMaster> there is no single best language
20:22:45 <ais523> BF is probably the most popular, and probably has the most programs in it
20:22:56 <AnMaster> but BF is a tarpit
20:22:59 <asiekierka> Yes
20:23:11 <asiekierka> Something more in the lines of... CAT.
20:23:16 <AnMaster> Befunge is also pretty popular
20:23:21 <AnMaster> not as much as BF
20:23:23 <AnMaster> but quite
20:23:28 <ais523> Thutu is the only esolang that I've ever deliberately chosen over non-esolangs to write a program in
20:23:38 <ais523> after deciding it was the best language for the job
20:23:42 <asiekierka> not a 2-d or 1-d programming language, something with real commands
20:23:45 <ais523> but I used a wimpmode version of it
20:23:45 <asiekierka> like not >
20:23:48 <AnMaster> I'd say Brainfuck, INTERCAL and Befunge are all near the top when it comes to popularity
20:23:49 <asiekierka> but PointerRight;
20:23:53 <AnMaster> don't have any statistics
20:23:57 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, probably BF, Befunge, INTERCAL in that order
20:24:01 <ais523> possibly INTERCAL beats Befunge, I'm not sure
20:24:08 <asiekierka> ok
20:24:16 <AnMaster> ais523, well there is unlambda or whatever too
20:24:18 <asiekierka> so i'm going to modify a GCS, MegaZeux, to add INTERCAL
20:24:20 <AnMaster> pretty famous as well
20:24:26 <tusho> asiekierka: good freaking luck
20:24:28 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, famous but I don't think it has as many programs
20:24:32 <asiekierka> or Unlambda
20:24:33 <AnMaster> ais523, I guess not
20:24:35 <tusho> asiekierka: good luck with computed COME FORM
20:24:37 <tusho> *FROM
20:24:51 <ais523> tusho: well e could just try INTERCAL-72, that's easier than modern INTERCAL
20:25:00 <tusho> ais523: but also closer to being a boring basic variation
20:25:04 <ais523> although still has weirdnesses that make it hard to implemetn
20:25:09 <asiekierka> Anyone has an interpreter? Adding INTERCAL to MZX is already hell of a job
20:25:17 <tusho> asiekierka: CLC-INTERCAL?
20:25:18 <tusho> But it's Perl.
20:25:18 <AnMaster> wth is MZX?
20:25:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, ^
20:25:22 <tusho> AnMaster: google
20:25:24 <asiekierka> it must be in C.
20:25:24 <ais523> asiekierka: well, I maintain C-INTERCAL but it's a compiler
20:25:30 <tusho> asiekierka: C-INTERCAL is in C
20:25:32 <tusho> but it's a compiler
20:25:33 <ais523> and CLC-INTERCAL is a bytecode compiler + interpreter
20:25:36 <ais523> written in Perl
20:25:36 <asiekierka> What about unlambda?
20:25:40 <ais523> and also in CLC-INTERCAL
20:25:44 <AnMaster> "MegaZeux, or MZX, is a game creation system (GCS) based on Tim Sweeney/Epic Megagames'"
20:25:47 <AnMaster> tusho, ^
20:25:49 <AnMaster> !???????????
20:25:53 <tusho> AnMaster: what about it
20:25:58 <tusho> and stop nickpinging me
20:25:59 <AnMaster> is that the MZX?
20:26:01 <AnMaster> or what?
20:26:01 <tusho> and read whatever article you found
20:26:03 <ais523> you need some precompiled bytecode to start the compilation process off, not sure how Claudio generated it in the first place, maybe by hand
20:26:05 <tusho> and yes, presumably
20:26:10 <tusho> he has talked about ZZT
20:26:13 <tusho> which is similar
20:26:14 <tusho> i believe
20:26:18 <asiekierka> MZX is using C.
20:26:30 <AnMaster> well it got nothing to do with esoteric as far as I can see
20:26:35 <asiekierka> What about an unlambda interpreter?
20:26:56 <ais523> asiekierka: they're tricky to write in C, although it has been done
20:26:58 <ais523> because of c and of d
20:27:32 <asiekierka> Anything else popular?
20:28:01 <AnMaster> by the way I created a game of life implementation in a scriptable propitary share ware fantasy rpg once. as a scenario, my only defence is that my mobo on my pc was broken and I had this old game engine on my old mac, so I was bored to hell
20:28:03 <ais523> Befunge-93 is pretty easy to implement in C, although it doesn't have multiple-char commands like you requested (Funge-98's a lot harder)
20:28:05 <AnMaster> otherwise I would never have done it
20:28:25 <tusho> the important thing was that it was propietarty and share ware, of course.
20:28:26 <asiekierka> nope BeFunge.
20:28:33 <asiekierka> it must have multichar commands
20:28:34 <ais523> AnMaster: I once spent several days, possibly weeks, writing stone-paper-scissors for Age of Mythology
20:28:38 <tusho> asiekierka: why?
20:28:46 <AnMaster> ais523, well this was called "blades of avernum"
20:28:52 <AnMaster> ais523, and what is "Age of Mythology"?
20:28:56 <ais523> it was ridiculously overengineered
20:29:07 <asiekierka> tusho: It just doesn't fit MZX.
20:29:14 <ais523> AnMaster: real-time strategy game in the Age of Empires game, it had its own language for writing map generators in
20:29:16 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what the heck is MZX?
20:29:17 <AnMaster> really
20:29:20 <asiekierka> a GCS
20:29:22 <asiekierka> digitalmzx.net
20:29:27 <AnMaster> GCS?
20:29:30 <ais523> and I wrote one which always generated the same map which was a multiple-player stone-paper-scissors with AI and scoring and everything
20:29:46 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what has it got to do with esoteric programming?
20:29:51 <ais523> s/the second occurence of 'game' two messages ago/line/
20:30:22 <asiekierka> nothing
20:30:25 <asiekierka> i just want to implement one for it
20:30:28 <asiekierka> add one for it
20:31:15 <ais523> why the multichar commands, then? Does it have its own internal parser?
20:31:28 <asiekierka> What do you mean?
20:31:32 <ais523> besides, although INTERCAL has multichar commands its expression syntax is weird and hard to parse
20:31:48 <asiekierka> It has a multichar programming language, ROBOTIC.
20:31:52 <AnMaster> oh yes I'd hate to parse INTERCAL
20:31:58 <ais523> portable INTERCAL expressions can't even easily be sent over IRC, which is why a two whole alternative syntaxes for them were invented
20:32:05 <asiekierka> But it's bad by today's standards; has a thousand hacks to make it still work
20:32:06 <ais523> s/ a / /
20:32:11 <AnMaster> ais523, intercal *looks* easy to parse at a first glance, but it turns out it isn't
20:32:26 <ais523> yes, that's it, in fact C-INTERCAL redefines getchar I think to make it work
20:32:35 <AnMaster> ais523, oh!?
20:32:42 <ais523> there are saner ways to do it but that's what it did when I first started tinkering with it and I haven't changed it
20:33:04 <AnMaster> what does it change in it's definition?
20:33:22 <ais523> well, apart from getting the reimplemented getchar to use read(2) because it was using stdio before and on some systems that was implemented in terms of getchar...
20:33:37 <ais523> AnMaster: I think it's to change the literal backspaces into something that lex can handle and splitting up ! into '.
20:33:45 <tusho> ais523: you know i'm actually warming to the gpl
20:33:54 <AnMaster> ais523, oh I see, why the split of !?
20:33:55 <ais523> lex doesn't like returning two tokens from one char
20:34:04 <ais523> AnMaster: because ! is an abbreviation for '. in INTERCAL
20:34:14 <AnMaster> ais523, couldn't that be done at lex level?
20:34:16 <ais523> and '. is very common, it's sort of like ($ in Perl
20:34:19 <AnMaster> or maybe bison
20:34:26 <ais523> AnMaster: it probably should be, can't be done sanely at Bison level
20:34:26 <AnMaster> ais523, so what is ($ in perl?
20:34:31 <ais523> as in ($a + $b)
20:34:37 <ais523> you see the $ is part of a different token
20:34:44 <AnMaster> ais523, ah yes
20:34:55 <AnMaster> ais523, oh... I see now
20:34:57 <ais523> a similar INTERCAL expression would be !1 ~ .2'
20:35:01 <ais523> although ~ isn't addition
20:35:11 <AnMaster> then what is !1 ?
20:35:16 <ais523> it's '.1
20:35:20 <ais523> so the expression is '.1 ~ .2'
20:35:21 <AnMaster> and that means?
20:35:23 <ais523> or ' .1 ~ .2 '
20:35:27 <AnMaster> oh
20:35:28 <AnMaster> quotes?
20:35:31 <ais523> that means .1 select .2 where .1 and .2 are variable names
20:35:36 <ais523> AnMaster: parens, just undirected
20:35:41 <AnMaster> right
20:35:43 <ais523> it's normally unambiguous
20:35:54 <AnMaster> ais523, then ! seems just stupid to me
20:36:00 <AnMaster> would make it harder to read the code
20:36:02 <AnMaster> oh wait
20:36:05 <AnMaster> that's the point?
20:36:09 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that is the point
20:36:11 <asiekierka> I wonder if there is a possibility to do a language looking like sudoku
20:36:18 <ais523> for a moment I thought you'd missed the point of INTERCAL
20:36:28 <AnMaster> ais523, I was just being sarcastic
20:36:29 <ais523> asiekierka: for a while I tried to figure out how to actually make Sudoku into a TC lang, but failed
20:36:38 <asiekierka> what was your idea?
20:36:48 <ais523> AnMaster: INTERCAL is all about being arbitrary for no reason
20:36:53 <asiekierka> if you got any
20:36:58 <ais523> asiekierka: allow grids which weren't necessarily a 9x9 square
20:37:08 <tusho> ais523: maybe AnMaster is an esolan
20:37:08 <ais523> but still required 1-9 in each row, column and box
20:37:09 <tusho> g
20:37:13 <tusho> he's just the exact opposite of INTERCAL...
20:37:17 <ais523> just they would have lots of filled-in spaces
20:37:24 <AnMaster> asiekierka, http://www.digitalmzx.net lacks something very important
20:37:30 <AnMaster> an introduction to what the hell it is
20:37:33 <ais523> tusho: the exact opposite of INTERCAL would be a neat, elegant and usual lang which for some reason had no assignment statement
20:37:37 <asiekierka> Ask the guys around
20:37:38 <tusho> AnMaster: a game creation system
20:37:43 <tusho> AnMaster: presumably it's scriptable
20:37:44 <asiekierka> or ask in #mzx@irc.esper.net
20:37:46 <ais523> s/usual/usable/, although I like usual too
20:37:46 <AnMaster> tusho, yes but some info, so you get a feel for it
20:37:48 <tusho> AnMaster: so he wants to implement an esolang in it
20:37:52 <ais523> after all INTERCAL is certainly unusual
20:37:53 <tusho> and that looks like a fansite
20:37:53 <AnMaster> asiekierka, not like I care enough
20:37:56 <tusho> so are you surprise
20:37:56 <tusho> d
20:38:00 <AnMaster> just liked to tell you that
20:38:03 <tusho> ais523: nah, still an -esolang-
20:38:07 <tusho> just the antithesis of INTERCAL
20:38:18 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
20:38:35 <AnMaster> <ais523> tusho: the exact opposite of INTERCAL would be a neat, elegant and usual lang which for some reason had no assignment statement <-- something functional maybe?
20:38:42 <ais523> AnMaster: probably
20:38:43 <AnMaster> with no variables
20:38:51 <ais523> hmm... maybe Haskell?
20:38:52 <AnMaster> so you couldn't assign
20:38:59 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't it have assignments?
20:39:01 <ais523> I think it would be a popular and elegant language
20:39:02 <tusho> AnMaster: no
20:39:03 <ais523> AnMaster: not really
20:39:06 <AnMaster> I don't know haskell though
20:39:07 <tusho> you can bind things
20:39:08 <tusho> but not assign
20:39:09 <tusho> optbot!
20:39:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | do you think an infinite loop would be trivial in qq by the way?.
20:39:13 <ais523> it has something that looks like an assignment but turns out not to be
20:39:14 <tusho> optbot!
20:39:15 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I'd like to see an apple-tree implementation of Life. It would be kind of appropriate..
20:39:16 <AnMaster> ah sounds a bit like erlang?
20:39:21 <tusho> AnMaster: yes
20:39:22 <AnMaster> but erlang got constants
20:39:26 <AnMaster> you can assign once
20:39:29 <tusho> yes
20:39:31 <tusho> that's what haskell is
20:39:36 <tusho> it's not assignment though.
20:39:37 <ais523> ah, optbot is alluding to lament's famous BORAOAS comment
20:39:37 <optbot> ais523: in fact, several of TD's things are art
20:39:40 <AnMaster> tusho, well I know a tiny bit of erlang
20:39:40 <tusho> it's just scoped binding
20:39:43 <AnMaster> but no haskell
20:39:43 <tusho> let x = y in z
20:39:46 <tusho> not assignment
20:39:50 <AnMaster> I planned to try to learn erlang at some point
20:39:59 <AnMaster> it seems like a nice language
20:40:01 <ais523> for a moment I was just wondering why optbot seemed to be out of context...
20:40:01 <optbot> ais523: complex isn't too hard to type... considering how not-quite-so-often it'll be used.
20:40:04 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:40:08 <tusho> ais523: lmao
20:40:14 <ais523> although I did figure it eventually
20:40:17 <AnMaster> <ais523> ah, optbot is alluding to lament's famous BORAOAS comment <--??
20:40:17 <optbot> AnMaster: no, it isn't
20:40:31 <ais523> AnMaster: "Even a box of rotten apples on a string is Turing-complete"
20:40:41 <AnMaster> ais523, eh, who said that?
20:40:45 <ais523> lament
20:40:47 <ais523> I think
20:40:49 <tusho> AnMaster: READING COMPREHENSION
20:40:52 <tusho> HE JUST MENTIONED IT
20:40:54 <tusho> LIKE 3 LINES UP!
20:40:54 <AnMaster> why is it called "BORAOAS"
20:40:58 <tusho> ON THE LINE THAT YOU ASKED!
20:40:58 <ais523> AnMaster: acronym
20:41:01 <AnMaster> tusho, I had a very busy day, I'm tired
20:41:05 <AnMaster> ais523, for what?
20:41:15 <tusho> AnMaster: the phrase
20:41:18 <tusho> god damn
20:41:21 <tusho> Box Of Rotten ...
20:41:22 <ais523> "Box Of Rotten Apples On A String"
20:41:30 * AnMaster threatens tusho with a "got"
20:42:07 <ais523> optbot: hi
20:42:08 <optbot> ais523: !hangman "
20:42:15 <ais523> optbot: E
20:42:15 <optbot> ais523: not eta :S
20:42:23 <ais523> ok, that almost made sense...
20:42:34 <tusho> optbot: let's chat
20:42:34 <optbot> tusho: Do you feel strongly about discussing such things ?
20:42:40 <tusho> optbot: are you ELIZA?...
20:42:41 <optbot> tusho: That's Plof 2, man.
20:42:46 <tusho> optbot: ELIZA in Plof 2? Cool.
20:42:47 <optbot> tusho: two divs.
20:42:48 <ais523> tusho: that's exactly what I thought
20:42:49 <AnMaster> tusho, was just thinking the same :P
20:42:57 <AnMaster> and what the heck is Plof?
20:43:02 <tusho> AnMaster: gregorr's langauge
20:43:02 <AnMaster> some esolang?
20:43:04 <ais523> although I remember a few months ago we had several people piping ELIZA into the channel so that's not impossible
20:43:05 <AnMaster> oh
20:43:05 <tusho> not esolang
20:43:12 <AnMaster> tusho, oh now I remember
20:43:16 <AnMaster> coded in D right?
20:43:20 <tusho> well
20:43:23 <tusho> DPlof is
20:43:23 <tusho> :P
20:43:32 <tusho> Plof3 is based on PSL
20:43:32 <AnMaster> well the interpreter/compiler/whatever was
20:43:34 <tusho> (plof stack language)
20:43:37 <AnMaster> oh
20:43:39 <tusho> basically the syntax can change at runtime
20:43:46 <tusho> and plof3 is just the default syntax
20:43:48 <AnMaster> tusho, hey that sounds like that lang of ais523
20:43:51 <AnMaster> what was the name?
20:43:52 <tusho> yes
20:43:53 <tusho> feather
20:43:55 <AnMaster> ah yes
20:44:04 <AnMaster> I want to see a feather interpreter
20:44:09 <AnMaster> I bet you can't make a compiler for it
20:44:16 <tusho> you can't
20:44:17 <tusho> well
20:44:17 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:44:18 <ais523> AnMaster: Feather is sufficiently general that after a while everything seems like "that sounds like Feather", it takes over your brain
20:44:18 <tusho> you can
20:44:22 <tusho> but it'd just be a befunge one
20:44:26 <AnMaster> tusho, to self modifying ASM
20:44:32 <tusho> AnMaster: more than that
20:44:32 <AnMaster> I think you could do that for befunge
20:44:36 <tusho> it'd have to be completely an interp
20:44:37 <AnMaster> *think*
20:44:40 <AnMaster> not going to try it
20:44:48 <ais523> AnMaster: you absolutely need to bundle the source code with Feather, it's possible to prove it
20:44:52 <AnMaster> tusho, well.. you could probably JIT befunge quite well
20:45:00 <AnMaster> ais523, oh well
20:45:06 <ais523> because you could end up re-parsing the program as cat
20:45:12 <ais523> which would dump the source code to stdout
20:45:18 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know enough about feather really
20:45:24 <ais523> or you could retroactively run the program under a debugger, or something like that
20:45:28 <ais523> AnMaster: the problem is, neither do I
20:45:32 <ais523> and I invented it...
20:45:34 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?!
20:45:40 <AnMaster> ais523, you need to write up some damn specs then
20:45:47 <ais523> AnMaster: it's kind of hard to get my head around
20:45:47 <AnMaster> ais523, give us hello world in feather!
20:45:52 <ais523> and I've tried writing specs but they were wrong
20:45:52 <tusho> AnMaster: it's not that trivial
20:45:54 <tusho> feather is everything
20:45:56 <tusho> you can make it brainfuck
20:46:01 <AnMaster> tusho, befunge?
20:46:01 <tusho> you can make it the opposite of feather
20:46:05 <tusho> you can make it so that it never was feather
20:46:13 <tusho> and the default language is a bit mindfucking anyway
20:46:17 <AnMaster> then I need to ask a question
20:46:19 <tusho> a spec would be way more work than just implementing it
20:46:20 <AnMaster> no two questions
20:46:20 <ais523> AnMaster: you can retroactively modify anything, including which language the program was running under
20:46:21 <tusho> then speccing that
20:46:25 <AnMaster> 1) is it possible to implement at all?
20:46:28 <tusho> AnMaster: yes
20:46:32 <AnMaster> 2) is it a sort of nomic?
20:46:33 <ais523> AnMaster: I think it is, but I want to implement it to be sure
20:46:34 <tusho> no
20:46:41 <tusho> only tangentially related
20:46:44 <tusho> (self-modifications)
20:46:46 <ais523> AnMaster: no, although a Feathernomic would be awesome
20:46:49 <tusho> and nomics don't do travelling in time
20:46:50 <tusho> generally :)
20:46:53 <AnMaster> ais523, hahaha
20:46:56 <ais523> it's sort of self-modifying to the extreme
20:47:07 <ais523> self-modifying in both time and space
20:47:11 <tusho> ais523: you should make the timeline first class
20:47:12 <AnMaster> ais523, well you need to implement it
20:47:13 <AnMaster> really
20:47:13 <tusho> as an object
20:47:16 <tusho> so you can just poke around it
20:47:16 <ais523> yes, I do
20:47:21 <ais523> I really want to implement Feather
20:47:32 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not sure it is feasible
20:47:34 <tusho> ais523: let's implement feather starting tomorrow
20:47:34 <ais523> I'll start by implementing Protofeather, I think, which was a lang I invented to write a Feather interp in
20:47:37 <AnMaster> what language would you use?
20:47:38 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it isn't feasible
20:47:39 <tusho> forget feathejs
20:47:41 <tusho> that's going nowhere
20:47:54 <tusho> ais523: maybe a collaborative text editor would help us
20:47:54 <ais523> AnMaster: I would use a functional lang with call/cc
20:48:02 <tusho> ais523: ruby
20:48:03 <tusho> :P
20:48:04 <AnMaster> ais523, hm...
20:48:05 <tusho> ruby has call/cc
20:48:15 <AnMaster> tusho, isn't ruby imperative?
20:48:17 <ais523> tusho: well I installed gobby like you asked
20:48:21 <tusho> AnMaster: multiparadigm
20:48:26 <tusho> ais523: i shall get gobby working
20:48:33 <AnMaster> oh I see
20:48:41 <AnMaster> what exactly is call/cc?
20:48:48 <AnMaster> forgive my ignorance
20:48:48 <tusho> AnMaster: continuations
20:48:54 <AnMaster> ah right
20:48:58 <AnMaster> why the name call/cc then?
20:49:03 <tusho> call with current continuation
20:49:13 <tusho> it passes the continuation with the function it gets
20:49:14 <AnMaster> ooh. that means eval basically?
20:49:18 <tusho> no
20:49:23 <ais523> basically it calls a function
20:49:23 <tusho> ais523: oh and I think TDD or BDD might help a _lot_ with this
20:49:27 <ais523> which is nothing very surprising
20:49:32 <ais523> but it gives it a continuation as its argument
20:49:32 <tusho> feather confuses us enough, it'd be nice to have some base cases
20:49:38 <tusho> so that we know exactly "what to implement next"
20:49:39 <AnMaster> erhm
20:49:50 <ais523> so basically it generates a continuation and passes it to a function as an argument
20:50:00 <ais523> Feather's basic operation is reasonably easy to write in terms of call/cc
20:50:01 <AnMaster> ais523, well what is the basic syntax of non-modified feather?
20:50:06 -!- asiekierka has joined.
20:50:29 <ais523> AnMaster: it looks vaguely like Smalltalk
20:50:30 <ais523> but isn't
20:50:43 <ais523> I invented Feather after thinking about Smalltalk for a while
20:50:52 <AnMaster> ais523, example?
20:51:10 <AnMaster> I'm unable to get a "feel" for what it is
20:51:14 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean
20:51:16 <ais523> yes, I see
20:51:23 <ais523> I have an incorrect attempt at a spec with some examples in somewhere
20:51:26 <ais523> which I could try pasting
20:51:31 <ais523> it's wrong but may give you ideas
20:51:39 <AnMaster> hm
20:51:52 -!- MikeRiley has joined.
20:51:52 <AnMaster> ais523, would be nice yes
20:52:00 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, hi! did you get my email?
20:52:05 <asiekierka> can i make a optbot?
20:52:05 <optbot> asiekierka: It would be crazy for it not to.
20:52:06 <MikeRiley> yes,,,,did you get my response??
20:52:07 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, also Deewiant had a question too
20:52:10 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, *checks*
20:52:27 <tusho> optbot!
20:52:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | even though i know the concepts somewhat.
20:52:32 <asiekierka> optbot!
20:52:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no no no.
20:52:36 <asiekierka> yay!
20:52:37 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, yes document what the default for REXP is
20:52:41 <AnMaster> What is PCRE????? I have never heard of it...
20:52:41 <ais523> actually, the spec's so misleading that I won't post it
20:52:44 <asiekierka> or wait
20:52:45 <asiekierka> its bad
20:52:47 <asiekierka> optbot!
20:52:47 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | if you prefer to think that way.
20:52:48 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, that is perl compatbile regex
20:52:51 <asiekierka> optbot!
20:52:51 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Probably :P.
20:52:53 <MikeRiley> oh....ok....
20:52:54 <asiekierka> optbot!
20:52:55 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | sounds to me like someone who's eager but doesn't really understand IRC.
20:52:59 <asiekierka> haha
20:53:02 <asiekierka> that stays
20:53:04 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, PCRE Perl Compatible Regular Expression, a library
20:53:06 <ais523> basically you can send a message to an object by writing object message
20:53:06 <AnMaster> libpcre
20:53:09 <ais523> or [ object message ]
20:53:14 <MikeRiley> yes, will document what the basic regex that should be supported is...
20:53:20 <ais523> if you need to change precedence, the [] is like () in most langs
20:53:27 <MikeRiley> will take a look at pcre....
20:53:29 <ais523> a lambda is [ arg1 arg2 | code ]
20:53:39 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, and yes I wondered what the heck you were planning to write that needed IPC stuff
20:54:00 <MikeRiley> never know!!! eheheheheheeh but would like it just in case i ever need it!!! eheheheehheeh
20:54:36 <MikeRiley> you should seem my FRPC one.....another one that chances are nobody would ever use,,,,but will not stop me from implementing it...
20:55:04 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, as for tests yes, I don't think I will implement stuff unless there is some sort of test suite
20:55:16 <AnMaster> FRPC?
20:55:21 * AnMaster searches
20:55:32 <MikeRiley> there is one for DATE now....if you have a particular order that you would be interested in implementing,,,i could write those test scripts first....
20:55:40 <MikeRiley> FRPC - Funge Remote Procedure Call....
20:55:44 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, not found on http://www.elf-emulation.com/funge/rcfunge_manual.html (FRPC)
20:56:00 <MikeRiley> that is because it is still in the formulation stage,,,,
20:56:10 <AnMaster> DATE wasn't there two days ago I think
20:56:30 <ais523> MikeRiley: seen IFFI?
20:56:30 <MikeRiley> essentially it allows an IP in a running funge environment to remotely execute a funge function within a totally separate environemtn....
20:56:40 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well I have reserved the name CFFI btw, I haven't yet finished specs as I'm not sure what is feasible to implement
20:56:47 <AnMaster> but it will be a full C FFI
20:56:48 <MikeRiley> would be similar to MACR but more elaborite,,,again would execute in a single tick
20:56:52 <AnMaster> to call any function in any library
20:56:56 <AnMaster> from inside funge
20:57:09 <MikeRiley> i have seen IFFI...
20:57:29 <MikeRiley> DATE is new as of today....
20:57:32 <AnMaster> but I have not yet come up with a working and usable interface
20:57:33 <MikeRiley> should be on my site now...
20:57:34 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I see
20:57:43 <AnMaster> hm
20:57:54 <asiekierka> I'd like to make an esoteric language called Cake. and it's a lie.
20:57:56 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, does it handle leap seconds?
20:57:57 <MikeRiley> the 1.14 manual has it...
20:58:19 <MikeRiley> no....DATE is just simple date functions based upon julian day calculations...
20:58:21 <AnMaster> asiekierka, huh? sounds like a reference to something, but I got no clue what?
20:58:36 <tusho> AnMaster: portal
20:58:39 <tusho> please get rid of your rock...
20:58:44 <tusho> you're too big to hide under it
20:58:44 <AnMaster> tusho, what rock?
20:58:46 <asiekierka> yes, i have a portal obsession i think
20:58:52 <AnMaster> cake lie?
20:58:54 <AnMaster> I don't get it
20:58:59 <tusho> portal is a game
20:59:01 <tusho> in it, the cake is a lie.
20:59:03 <AnMaster> yes I know that
20:59:05 <AnMaster> the game
20:59:10 <AnMaster> I even seen some screenshots
20:59:10 <tusho> it is part of the game plot.
20:59:14 <AnMaster> seems pretty cool game
20:59:17 <tusho> cake is promised by glados throughout the game
20:59:21 <AnMaster> oh
20:59:22 <tusho> and near the end you find out that it is a lie
20:59:22 <AnMaster> I see
20:59:30 <AnMaster> k
20:59:52 <ais523> tusho: not exactly, AFAIR there's just a wall with "the cake is a lie" spraypainted onto it
20:59:56 <tusho> yes
21:00:01 <ais523> although I haven't played the game so I'm not sure
21:00:01 <tusho> technically it isn't a lie
21:00:06 <ais523> so maybe the wall, rather than the cake, is a lie?
21:00:10 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, hrrm I may implement DATE, have still to track down that elusive t bug
21:00:13 <tusho> (at the end of the final cutscene there is cake.)
21:00:24 <tusho> but that's after you destroy glados
21:00:32 <tusho> so, obviously, *glados'* promise was a lie
21:00:38 <tusho> (I haven't actually played the game, hah)
21:00:58 <MikeRiley> AnMaster: ok will send you the DATE test program
21:00:59 <asiekierka> Someone overanalyzed the song
21:01:00 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I have to do that before implementing any more fingerprints I decided
21:01:06 <ais523> MikeRiley: does it work under sdate?
21:01:14 <MikeRiley> what t bug do you have??
21:01:17 <ais523> I tried cfunge under sdate and it gave the right year but the wrong month
21:01:27 <tusho> ais523: those pesky posix_time functinos
21:01:29 <ais523> apparently due to the way the date's packed into integers
21:01:37 <ais523> tusho: stop it, this meme is no longer funny
21:01:49 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, mycology says "a  b" takes more than 5 ticks, I checked and it doesn't, but compared to ccbi the threads are not in the places they should be before
21:01:56 <AnMaster> so there is a desync happening at some time
21:02:00 <AnMaster> so I need to track that down
21:02:00 <tusho> ais523: yes but if a no-longer-funny meme lasts for ages and ages it becomes hilarious again
21:02:03 <AnMaster> I haven't managed yet
21:02:05 <tusho> or should I say posix_hilarious
21:02:25 <AnMaster> <ais523> I tried cfunge under sdate and it gave the right year but the wrong month <-- which I explained isn't odd
21:02:27 <ais523> tusho: I have such memes as inside jokes elsewhere, the point is that it only becomes hilarious if it was never funny to start with
21:02:33 <MikeRiley> ok AnMaster,,,DATE test program is emailed....
21:02:36 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I understand the explanation
21:02:41 <ais523> I was just wondering whether DATE would work
21:02:42 <AnMaster> ais523, becuase of the way funge encodes dates in y
21:02:50 <MikeRiley> hmmmmmm on the "a  b" one.....mine works....
21:03:03 <AnMaster> ais523, and well I don't think anyone but you cares about that, and it is not something I'm likely to test
21:03:04 <MikeRiley> brb
21:03:09 <tusho> ais523: actually if you wait twice as long once-funny ones return too
21:03:12 <AnMaster> no offence meant
21:03:16 <ais523> AnMaster: well, /someone/ wrote sdate
21:03:21 <tusho> speaking of which, ALL YOUR POSIX_ ARE BELONG TO US
21:03:31 <ais523> tusho: well that meme never stopped being funny
21:03:32 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, yes well I checked and it *does* take the right number of ticks in cfunge, but the desync happens before
21:03:36 <AnMaster> which mess up later
21:03:52 <AnMaster> oh yes, all your base....
21:03:54 <asiekierka> I am bored. Any ideas to do on pencil and paper?
21:04:00 <AnMaster> that is one of the better memes
21:04:09 <tusho> ate my balls
21:04:21 <asiekierka> any esolangs you can do on pencil&paper?
21:04:36 <tusho> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ate_my_balls )
21:04:36 <MikeRiley> back
21:05:23 <AnMaster> asiekierka, hrrm.... befunge you could do on a grid by hand I guess
21:05:29 <asiekierka> Whirl?
21:05:37 <MikeRiley> anmaster: is it in the space compression code??? that is where mine was with that one....
21:05:41 <asiekierka> You could make a pencil&paper implementation of whirl
21:05:43 <asiekierka> right
21:05:49 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, no I checked that
21:05:52 <ais523> asiekierka: BF's pretty easy even on pencil and paper
21:05:56 <tusho> asiekierka: you could implement p&p anything
21:05:56 <ais523> sometimes you can even run it in your head
21:05:57 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I'm not sure where it happens
21:05:57 <tusho> try intercal
21:06:05 <ais523> also I find Befunge in my head to not be too hard usually
21:06:05 <MikeRiley> hmmmmm how does mycology actually test that function??
21:06:07 <ais523> INTERCAL's harder
21:06:10 <MikeRiley> could it be a bug in mycology??
21:06:13 <ais523> because the operators are hard to do mentally
21:06:29 <ais523> even the CAPTCHA on the CLC-INTERCAL website I often have to load up intercalc to solve
21:06:33 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I plan to do a binary search based on tick count compared to the first t (can't do it absolute as y testing will differ) to find where ccbi and cfunge starts to differ
21:06:35 <ais523> because I mess up when doing it in my head
21:06:36 <tusho> stack based languages are really easy to do in your head
21:06:37 <asiekierka> I must do a PENCIL esoteric Language
21:06:39 <tusho> if they use high level enough combinators
21:06:52 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, using ccbi debugger and the .gdbinit that comes with cfunge
21:07:40 <AnMaster> tusho, FORTH?
21:07:44 <tusho> AnMaster: no.
21:07:46 <asiekierka> I wonder what functions could a pencil&paper programming language have
21:07:47 <asiekierka> huh
21:07:49 <tusho> forth doesn't have high-level combinators
21:07:50 <tusho> :P
21:08:03 <tusho> lost the game
21:08:14 <AnMaster> asiekierka, it should be easy to do befunge on that
21:08:15 <AnMaster> as I said
21:08:36 <AnMaster> you need a marker, a paper with a grid, a pencil and some way to remove pencil marks to change them
21:08:38 -!- tusho has quit ("Bye!").
21:08:41 <asiekierka> What about SNUSP?
21:08:44 <AnMaster> also a stack tracker of some kind
21:08:45 <MikeRiley> anmaster: of the new fingerprints, which ones do you want to implement, then i will write those test scripts before the others...
21:08:49 <ais523> tusho: wow, that was abrupt
21:08:50 -!- tusho has joined.
21:08:53 <ais523> optbot: still here?
21:08:54 <optbot> ais523: minimum space as in O(1) spae
21:08:58 <asiekierka> What about something using ONLY pencil, eraser and paper
21:09:01 <ais523> apparently so
21:09:03 <asiekierka> specially designed for it
21:09:18 <ais523> asiekierka: maybe something special could happen if you wore a hole in the page?
21:09:18 <oklopol> something like a reversible language or anything without lost information might be nice on paper, as you don't wanna erase too much
21:09:22 <oklopol> cuz it gets messy
21:09:24 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well LONG and FING definitely
21:09:25 <tusho> ais523: it runs on eso-std.org
21:09:27 <tusho> that's how it changed the topic last night
21:09:33 <ais523> tusho: why doesn't opt-bot respond to /msg?
21:09:34 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,
21:09:36 <ais523> tusho: why doesn't optbot respond to /msg?
21:09:36 <optbot> ais523: Uh... immibis, you should'nt do that
21:09:37 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, maybe EXEC, 3DSP too
21:09:38 <tusho> ais523: why should it
21:09:46 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, possibly SETS
21:09:55 <tusho> ais523: uh i'd tell you to read the source but it has my password in it
21:09:57 <ais523> tusho: many bots do so you can mess with them without flooding the channel
21:09:57 <tusho> ^.^
21:10:00 <MikeRiley> ok,,,
21:10:06 <ais523> tusho: why not optbot's password?
21:10:06 <optbot> ais523: Only numbers.
21:10:14 <tusho> haha, that was good optbot
21:10:14 <optbot> tusho: guess what, they just launched the new site
21:10:15 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, and where did you put the DATE test?
21:10:16 <ais523> optbot: that won't be a very secure password then
21:10:16 <optbot> ais523: damn
21:10:20 <tusho> hahahaha
21:10:22 <MikeRiley> emailed it to you
21:10:23 <ais523> YES
21:10:25 <AnMaster> oh the mail just arrived
21:10:26 <AnMaster> I see
21:10:26 <AnMaster> thanks
21:10:32 <MikeRiley> most welcome
21:10:34 <asiekierka> Making a hole on the instruction point will remove the space forever
21:10:43 <asiekierka> It can be normal BF
21:10:43 <tusho> ais523: anyway, i'm lazy and stupid and I picked one password and used it everywhere for like years
21:10:48 <tusho> and i cba to go and change everything
21:10:48 <asiekierka> but operating on bits
21:10:50 <asiekierka> as in
21:11:01 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, anyway I had a very busy day so going to sleep soon, probably on the keyboard if I don't relocate myself to the local sleeping facility soon ;P
21:11:08 <asiekierka> you can just make holes in order to make bits
21:11:11 <AnMaster> (that is: bed)
21:11:12 <ais523> tusho: ok, I generally have different passwords for things other people might be able to see
21:11:12 <MikeRiley> ehehehe ok,,,,,
21:11:23 <MikeRiley> let me know if you have any furhter questions on those fingerprints....
21:11:31 <MikeRiley> will email you the test scripts as i complete them...
21:12:03 <tusho> ais523: I want to use 1password eventually
21:12:11 <asiekierka> Oh well.
21:12:13 <tusho> it lets you use one password but for each site generates a long, random one
21:12:16 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, nice, you should put them up on some website too IMO
21:12:18 <tusho> and lets you also sync it everywhere
21:12:20 <tusho> and back it up
21:12:20 <AnMaster> for other authors to use
21:12:20 <ais523> tusho: that isn't a very secure password, although it's probably marginally more secure than password1
21:12:23 <asiekierka> Any single-player puzzle games you can play on paper?
21:12:25 <tusho> (so that you're not tied just to that app)
21:12:28 <tusho> (it uses os x's keychain)
21:12:33 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, would be very useful for everyone who wants to implement it
21:12:35 <asiekierka> TETRIS i think
21:12:37 <tusho> ais523: oh, thanks for reading my password
21:12:37 <tusho> :p
21:12:49 <ais523> btw I finally turned off hunter2 mode over here
21:12:50 <AnMaster> asiekierka, hm you need to remove strips and such
21:12:55 <ais523> it was causing too much confusion
21:12:56 <AnMaster> can't really see it done on paper
21:13:00 <tusho> ais523: would you like to ghost me for the symbolism?
21:13:05 <ais523> I'll just use normal asterisks if I ever turn it back on again?
21:13:14 <tusho> optbot: should ais ghost me
21:13:15 <optbot> tusho: but having the file that's needed rmd at the end of the step
21:13:16 <tusho> optbot: should ais ghost me
21:13:17 <optbot> tusho: "EPLs".
21:13:18 <tusho> optbot: should ais ghost me
21:13:18 <optbot> tusho: Which is the boot sector and the partition table.
21:13:19 <tusho> optbot: should ais ghost me
21:13:19 <optbot> tusho: it's called "emacs"
21:13:20 <tusho> optbot: should ais ghost me
21:13:21 <optbot> tusho: Hola
21:13:22 <tusho> optbot: should ais ghost me
21:13:22 <optbot> tusho: it's just identify password
21:13:31 <tusho> optbot: say yes
21:13:31 <ais523> ok that last one was appropriate
21:13:32 <optbot> tusho: this_is_a_command; "This is a literal string".  this ~ " is a string with variables and " ~ commands() ~ " being parsed."
21:13:32 <MikeRiley> yes, i will put all the test scripts on my funge website...
21:13:32 <AnMaster> heck
21:13:40 <MikeRiley> separate from the Rc/Funge-98 distribution...
21:13:45 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, sure :)
21:13:47 <asiekierka> Is there a 1-player puzzle game for pencil&paper, then?
21:14:07 <ais523> asiekierka: Tetris
21:14:10 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, the cfunge repo contains some tests and some examples, and since I just export for releases they contain it too
21:14:16 <ais523> although you'll have to figure out some way to make the blocks move yourself
21:14:41 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, hope some of http://bzr.kuonet.org/cfunge/trunk/files/337?file_id=tests-20080312224933-r7p428lop2j37r0o-1 are useful to you
21:14:43 <ais523> asiekierka: Sudoku would be one sane example, anyway
21:14:48 <MikeRiley> my dev directory has all kinds of test programs,,,,but most of them have very cryptic output....so not too good for general consumption...
21:14:56 <MikeRiley> will take a look
21:15:18 <tusho> writing concatenative code is better than soduku
21:15:24 <tusho> imo :P
21:15:34 <tusho> it's all about continually shortening and splitting it and then tidying it off
21:15:37 <tusho> it's a game, really
21:16:06 <asiekierka> without sudoku
21:16:17 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well mine got descriptive text at the end
21:16:17 <asiekierka> also, no tetris, i have tetris, picross and sudoku on my ds already
21:16:25 <AnMaster> so yeah not very useful
21:16:36 <ais523> asiekierka: well there's a game I made up in my head several weeks ago which is actually quite difficult
21:16:45 <MikeRiley> i like the way mycology does them,,,so will redo all my test programs to be similar...
21:17:01 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, for example http://bzr.kuonet.org/cfunge/trunk/annotate/337?file_id=concurrentquit.b98-20080330095205-t1xqar6x4mwzwum0-1 got two possible outputs: quit, or segfault ;)
21:17:05 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, may be worth trying it
21:17:13 <MikeRiley> i will try it...
21:17:14 <AnMaster> depending on how you do t
21:17:25 <ais523> given a range of non-negative integers (say 0-13), find the smallest subset of those integers such that each integer in the large set is the difference between two integers in the small set
21:17:28 <AnMaster> actually it will print good a few times
21:17:32 <AnMaster> if everything goes well
21:18:06 <MikeRiley> give me a sec,,,,trying it now...
21:18:43 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, actually that isn't a valid download link, it points to a version control annotated copy
21:18:50 <MikeRiley> got 4 goods and then a normal program end...
21:18:54 <AnMaster> ah yes
21:18:57 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, :)
21:19:10 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, the other ones in http://bzr.kuonet.org/cfunge/trunk/files/337?file_id=tests-20080312224933-r7p428lop2j37r0o-1 are also worth trying
21:19:12 <MikeRiley> yeah,,,,used the download link to grab the file...
21:19:18 <MikeRiley> grabbing
21:19:33 <AnMaster> most got comments explaining what should happen
21:20:06 <AnMaster> C means correct most of the time and W means wrong, or it prints more like GOOD/BAD, or it just doesn't print anything, *sometimes it got a comment in it*
21:20:07 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,will give all of them a try...
21:20:41 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, the ones called *.b108 will probably not work as expected in RC/Funge
21:20:56 <MikeRiley> probably not....i have implemented some of 108,,,,but not 100% yet...
21:21:07 <AnMaster> well 108 is still not a fixed standard
21:21:15 <AnMaster> so any support currently is for some draft
21:21:20 <MikeRiley> things like reflection for k u ( ) and such...
21:21:26 <AnMaster> well they are likely to say
21:21:26 <MikeRiley> added the additional y fields...
21:21:27 <AnMaster> stay*
21:21:38 <MikeRiley> and the k functionality (minus the nested)
21:21:55 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, yep also likely to stay, with the exception of that trinary funge stuff which may not work out well in other parts
21:22:14 <AnMaster> it's certainly possible to do such a funge but I don't think it can be part of the standard really
21:22:20 <AnMaster> :/
21:22:24 <AnMaster> too separate
21:22:24 <MikeRiley> any idea when you will have a standard that is relatively set??
21:22:35 <MikeRiley> yeah,,,,,i agree with you....
21:22:48 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, hard to say, need to get input from C. Pressy too on the final draft
21:22:56 <AnMaster> and I like input from you and Deewiant
21:23:05 <AnMaster> and no cfunge doesn't do all the 108 stuff yet either
21:23:14 <MikeRiley> other than the new fingerprint method....everything else seemed reasonable....
21:23:17 -!- asiekierka has quit.
21:23:23 <MikeRiley> except nested k,,,do not really see the point in it....
21:23:27 <ais523> I'd like to have a look through it too at some point
21:23:34 <ais523> MikeRiley: it's pointless but still needs to be specified
21:23:39 <AnMaster> ais523, rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge108/
21:23:43 <AnMaster> the files are in there
21:23:50 <ais523> AnMaster: how near-finished is it?
21:23:51 <AnMaster> err typo
21:23:54 <MikeRiley> can understand specified....just see it as pointless...
21:23:57 <AnMaster> http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/
21:23:58 <AnMaster> the dash
21:24:08 <AnMaster> ais523, some parts are pretty finished, other parts aren't
21:24:09 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:24:12 <AnMaster> but input would be good
21:24:15 <ais523> I may have to get tusho to finish making ESO usable in a hurry
21:24:20 <MikeRiley> from the spec tho...seems like 0 iterations is not possible??? only 1 up???
21:24:22 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
21:24:36 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well I don't like UNDEF, and k was *really* underdefined in 98
21:24:44 <AnMaster> I think the k part is over a page now isn't it?
21:24:49 <MikeRiley> i agree there,,,,k was very problematic in 98...
21:24:53 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, 0 is possible
21:24:54 <MikeRiley> i think so...
21:25:00 <AnMaster> it should be anyway
21:25:13 <AnMaster> it basically works the way CCBI implemented it
21:25:19 <AnMaster> nested k probably doesn't
21:25:35 <MikeRiley> well,,,,cannot remember quite the example....but if you had something like: 111122kk5 sounded like from the spec you will get 5 5s???
21:25:40 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, anyway iterate-iterate.b108 and iterate-iterate2.b108 are both about nested k
21:25:45 <MikeRiley> since the skip skips the k and would land on the 5....
21:25:56 <MikeRiley> according to the spec,,,,
21:26:05 <MikeRiley> so would not 00kk5 still end up on the 5????
21:26:20 <MikeRiley> or did i misread something???
21:26:21 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, and not sure about that, but basically remember on the second iteration of the inner k you would pop the iteration count again, which would mean you popped a 5 you pushed the first time
21:26:29 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean
21:26:45 <MikeRiley> yes,,,see what you mean,,,should have used something other than something that pushed onto the stack,,,
21:26:54 <MikeRiley> so like 00kk,  or 111122kk,....
21:27:33 <AnMaster> as for 00kk
21:27:34 <AnMaster> hrrm
21:27:36 <MikeRiley> i almost would have defined nested k as an error,,,and made it reflect...
21:27:41 <AnMaster> that would not execute the second k
21:27:44 <AnMaster> so that is pretty clear
21:27:49 <AnMaster> what is an issue however is:
21:27:52 <AnMaster> 000kkk
21:27:57 <MikeRiley> yep.....
21:28:00 <ais523> AnMaster: error in the Funge-space diagram, 32-bit integers go down to -2147483648 as you say but up to only 2147483648
21:28:03 <ais523> AnMaster: error in the Funge-space diagram, 32-bit integers go down to -2147483648 as you say but up to only 2147483647
21:28:05 <MikeRiley> i think nested k is very problematic....
21:28:05 <AnMaster> hm
21:28:11 <ais523> sorry, corrected version, I made the same mistake as you first time...
21:28:44 <AnMaster> ais523, I copied from the diagram from Funge-108 but remade it in inkscape, it was ASCII art in 98
21:28:45 <MikeRiley> if it did something useful, i could see having it,,,,but without a real use for it.....complicates the k code for no real reason...
21:28:46 <AnMaster> hm
21:28:53 <AnMaster> ais523, so what is the error? you confused me
21:29:02 <tusho> asda
21:29:03 <tusho> sd
21:29:07 <ais523> AnMaster: range of 32-bit int, it only goes up to 2147483647
21:29:14 <MikeRiley> brb
21:29:18 <tusho> [21:24:16] <ais523> I may have to get tusho to finish making ESO usable in a hurry
21:29:20 <ais523> and your funge-space diagram lists a column 2147483648
21:29:22 * AnMaster checks
21:29:26 <tusho> i am not particularly inclined to accept funge-108 as an eso spec
21:29:33 <ais523> tusho: why not?
21:29:35 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, and well reflect on nested k seems worse
21:29:37 <ais523> not in your framework of choice?
21:29:41 <tusho> regardless of personal concerns AnMaster has stated that he doesn't want an HTML version or similar
21:29:43 <tusho> and stop trollin
21:29:43 <tusho> g
21:29:45 <ais523> it's still worth us looking over
21:29:48 <ais523> and sorry
21:29:57 <AnMaster> tusho, I will make a pure text version if you want
21:30:04 <tusho> that'd be worse, actually
21:30:10 <AnMaster> I can export from LyX to text, will need some fixing up of the tables after
21:30:12 <AnMaster> but can be done
21:30:13 <tusho> but yes, I will look it over
21:30:16 <ais523> AnMaster: why not an HTML version, anyway, if what tusho says is correct?
21:30:17 <tusho> but it depends on AnMaster co-operating
21:30:23 <MikeRiley> back
21:30:24 <ais523> is it a case of "don't want" or "can't produce easily"
21:30:25 <tusho> and I'm pretty sure he's flat-out stated that he's not changing his format
21:30:25 <AnMaster> ais523, well *I* won't make that
21:30:31 <AnMaster> as in, I hate coding html
21:30:38 <ais523> ah, that makes sense, but you don't mind if someone else html-converts it
21:30:42 <tusho> ais523: basically - ESO standards should be made in a semantic language
21:30:45 <tusho> LyX is a presentational language
21:30:46 <AnMaster> ais523, sure if it works correctly
21:30:53 <MikeRiley> maybe with nested k,,,,just like <space> and ; cannot be executed,,,maybe k should not be either??
21:30:58 <tusho> we _could_ modify it ourselves, but then it wouldn't be the official version
21:30:58 <AnMaster> tusho, is it? it is all about semantics IMO
21:31:13 <tusho> AnMaster: its certainly not semantic in the way i meant
21:31:17 <MikeRiley> although i do hate having exceptions....at least <space> and ; make sense
21:31:24 <tusho> it is to a degreee, but not in the metadata way that I meant
21:31:27 <ais523> tusho: we can ESO-bless it as a true and accurate conversion
21:31:39 <tusho> ais523: and that'll mean F all if AnMaster points to his version
21:32:00 <tusho> he has stated clearly that the lyx version will be the official one
21:32:01 <tusho> full stop
21:32:04 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well I implemented the damn nested k in cfunge now and Deewiant thought this was the most sane way to do it (he was against the reflect alternative)
21:32:18 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, btw D in FILE, should it just delete files or also directories?
21:32:24 <MikeRiley> i can certainy implement it too...just seems messy for no reason...
21:32:57 <AnMaster> well my k is very messy because I need to make exceptions when doing threading
21:33:02 <AnMaster> it is a compile time options
21:33:06 <MikeRiley> D in my implementation uses unlink, intended to delete files, no reason why it could not delete subdirs as well
21:33:11 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, just iterate over t or @ XD
21:33:24 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well I prefer unlink() too
21:33:29 <AnMaster> DIRF is for subdirs
21:33:33 <ais523> tusho: well, if we certify it as being identical to the official version I don't see why AnMaster wouldn't link to it
21:33:33 <AnMaster> FILE for files
21:33:42 <MikeRiley> that is my basic take on it....
21:33:42 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed
21:34:08 <MikeRiley> since DIRF already has a directory deletion function....
21:34:08 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I think it makes sense for FILE to only do files, not directories
21:34:15 <AnMaster> just document it :)
21:34:18 <MikeRiley> it does make sense....
21:34:21 <MikeRiley> will document it....
21:34:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant was wondering about it
21:34:31 <tusho> ais523: because he's said so
21:34:38 <MikeRiley> in case you cannot tell,,,i am terrible at documentation!!! eheheheheheheheheeheh
21:35:05 <AnMaster> tusho, I said tex version would be a sane official one
21:35:29 <tusho> AnMaster: so if we did all the work for you you would designate ours as the official one?
21:35:33 <AnMaster> but I'm happy to make another version official if it is sane, and correct
21:35:39 <AnMaster> tusho, I would need to read over it
21:35:43 <AnMaster> to check it is the same
21:35:47 <AnMaster> but probably
21:35:49 <tusho> AnMaster: ok then
21:35:55 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway I need to finish it first
21:35:56 <tusho> of course, this relies on the actual standard being sane ;)
21:35:59 <tusho> which I hope it will be...
21:36:00 <AnMaster> tusho, hah!
21:36:02 <tusho> but, you know
21:36:26 <AnMaster> tusho, you will love this:
21:36:38 <AnMaster> I printed it out yesterday for proof reading, took it with me as bed time reading
21:36:44 <AnMaster> feel asleep at third chapter
21:36:49 <AnMaster> I guess it was boring or something ;)
21:36:58 <tusho> AnMaster: probably your awful taste in fonts
21:36:59 <tusho> :D
21:37:14 <AnMaster> tusho, I did select a serif font before printing
21:37:27 <AnMaster> Latin Modern
21:37:30 <AnMaster> to be exact
21:38:07 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, oh btw run a spell checker on that page with your fingerprints, no offence meant
21:38:18 <AnMaster> but Deewiant did quote some with [sic] iirc
21:38:26 <MikeRiley> no offense taken,,,,i admit that i am a horrible speller!!!!
21:38:37 <tusho> MikeRiley: it's more your grammar,,,that I worry about
21:38:37 <tusho> :D
21:38:40 <AnMaster> (misspelled communication iirc was one of them)
21:38:45 <MikeRiley> i am worse at grammar....
21:38:51 * AnMaster slaps tusho around with a "got"
21:39:01 * tusho stabs AnMaster in the eye with optbot's help
21:39:02 <optbot> tusho: that's what programmers need
21:39:08 <tusho> optbot: agreed. a good eye-stabbing
21:39:08 <optbot> tusho: even if not about you, but about your comment, which is kinda weird
21:39:08 <AnMaster> hahah!
21:39:16 <tusho> optbot: well, I think his comment warranted it
21:39:16 <optbot> tusho: im assuming the code is correct not the list?
21:39:19 <ais523> hmm... ASCII needs a 'dimension feed' character for Quadrefunge
21:39:30 <AnMaster> ais523, vertical tab
21:39:33 <AnMaster> maybe?
21:39:37 <tusho> ais523: i'd have expected a LOL from you about that
21:39:40 <ais523> that's less of a movement than formfeed
21:39:41 <tusho> it seemed as funny as the last time at least :P
21:39:43 <AnMaster> anyway if you do more dimensions you should do:
21:39:45 <tusho> although the coherency ended quicker
21:39:53 <AnMaster> vertical tab<dimension>
21:39:55 <ais523> so maybe it should come between newline and formfeed in Quadrefunge
21:40:02 <AnMaster> to allow easy extending to more dimensions
21:40:04 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
21:40:06 <ais523> AnMaster: how is the dimension delimited
21:40:08 <AnMaster> that is what I would do
21:40:16 <ais523> hmm... and we should at least mess with device control 1, 2, 3, and 4
21:40:18 <AnMaster> ais523, a number following the vertical tab
21:40:20 <ais523> those chars don't get enough love
21:40:27 <AnMaster> but I guess there should be a newline too
21:40:28 <AnMaster> after that
21:40:29 <ais523> AnMaster: how do you tell when the number ends and funge-space begins
21:40:37 <AnMaster> ais523, a newline would make sense
21:40:43 <ais523> yes, I suppose so
21:40:56 <AnMaster> \v<number>(\n|\r\n|\r)
21:41:11 <ais523> still, I doubt anyone will ever program in Quadrefunge, except maybe they will now I've said it
21:41:12 <AnMaster> iirc that is what I and MikeRiley decided some days ago
21:41:21 <ais523> even 3 dimensions is too many really
21:41:24 <MikeRiley> that sounds about right...
21:41:33 <tusho> I need to make a system using \n\r
21:41:35 <tusho> just to break everything
21:41:43 <AnMaster> ais523, if someone made a 105-dimension funge then someone would use all 105 dimensions in a hello world
21:41:47 <AnMaster> and then never touch it again
21:41:48 <AnMaster> :P
21:41:58 <MikeRiley> eheheheheheheeheheheh probably!!!!!
21:42:02 <ais523> we need Hilbert-Lahey-space Funge
21:42:05 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I can see some use for a lot of dimensions
21:42:10 <AnMaster> ais523, data structures
21:42:16 <AnMaster> easy to represent binary trees
21:42:24 <AnMaster> or n-dimensional arrays
21:42:31 <MikeRiley> also need instructions tho to move throught all those dimensions...
21:42:45 <ais523> AnMaster: how do you represent a binary tree in Hilbert-Lahey-Funge?
21:42:48 <AnMaster> ais523, how can you do a 3D array in befunge?
21:42:57 <MikeRiley> brb
21:42:58 <AnMaster> ais523, not sure, but I think it would make it easier
21:43:02 <ais523> AnMaster: multiplicatively
21:43:03 <AnMaster> also what is "Hilbert-Lahey-Funge"
21:43:08 <ais523> muldimensional arrays I can understand
21:43:18 <ais523> AnMaster: hilbert space is a bit like infinite-dimensional cartesian space
21:43:19 <AnMaster> ais523, well not a binary tree maybe
21:43:22 <AnMaster> may have confused it
21:43:25 <ais523> and I was just lahifying it
21:43:41 <AnMaster> ais523, who was/is Lahey?
21:43:45 <ais523> not sure
21:43:45 <AnMaster> anyway a tree could be easy
21:43:50 <AnMaster> down node: next dimension
21:43:53 <ais523> but Lahey-space is familiar to all Funge programmers, I hope
21:44:04 <ais523> try checking Wikipedia, it's normally good for looking up that sort of thing
21:44:09 <AnMaster> so if you need a side node you just try the next dimension
21:44:16 <AnMaster> and yes I know what Lahey-space is
21:44:26 <AnMaster> but when I googled once all I found was funge references iirc
21:45:05 <MikeRiley> back
21:46:45 <ais523> hmm... apparently it was invented by "Chris Lahey", which turns up quite a few google results but I'm not sure if they're relayed
21:46:53 <ais523> seems to be a common name
21:46:56 <AnMaster> oh ok
21:47:02 <AnMaster> ais523, so it is funge specific then
21:47:36 <AnMaster> ais523, what did you say the range should be for 32-bit int?
21:47:44 * AnMaster is opening the file in inkscape atm
21:47:59 <ais523> AnMaster: the positive value is less positive by one than the negative value is negative
21:48:01 <ais523> if you see what I mean
21:48:17 <AnMaster> ais523, in 2-complement that is?
21:48:27 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, in 1-complement they're both one lower than you have them
21:48:34 <ais523> positive maximum's always an odd number
21:48:52 <AnMaster> ah
21:48:54 <AnMaster> ais523, true
21:48:55 <AnMaster> hrrm
21:49:16 <AnMaster> what is the reason for this one lower in 2-complement?
21:49:32 <moozilla> i am not the same person as navigator/mooz_
21:49:38 <moozilla> just for the record
21:49:41 <ais523> AnMaster: because 0 exists
21:49:45 <ais523> say in 8-bit numbers
21:49:52 <ais523> then you have 0-127 which is 128 possibilities
21:49:59 <ais523> and -1 to -128 which is the other 128 possibilities
21:50:02 <AnMaster> ais523, will be fixed on next udpate
21:50:04 <ais523> in 1s complement you have two zeros
21:50:05 <AnMaster> update*
21:50:16 <ais523> thus it only goes down to -127 as well because you have -0
21:50:29 <AnMaster> ah true
21:50:40 <AnMaster> ais523, I think two complement is rather arcane ;P
21:50:45 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean
21:51:01 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but convenient for people
21:51:07 <ais523> well, for computers
21:51:10 <AnMaster> yeah
21:51:16 <ais523> because you don't have to distinguish signed/unsigned
21:51:27 <ais523> 1's complement is neater if you know everything is signed, and just as easy to wire up in the hardware
21:51:33 <tusho> chris lahey is probably not real
21:51:35 <AnMaster> ais523, you have to for * and / but not + and - iirc?
21:51:40 <AnMaster> or how is it?
21:51:52 <ais523> (2's complement you ignore the carry from the top bit, 1's complement you wrap the top carry as the carry input for the bottom bit)
21:52:10 <ais523> AnMaster: you have to for /, not sure about *
21:52:15 <AnMaster> hm ok
21:52:25 <AnMaster> ais523, what about - and +?
21:52:45 <AnMaster> you can just do them as unsigned right?
21:52:49 <ais523> - and + don't care about signedness with 2's complement
21:53:11 <ais523> although they have different error conditions on overflow according to whether they're signed or unsigned
21:53:23 <ais523> thus the 6502 for instance has signed-overflow and unsigned-overflow condition bits
21:54:04 <AnMaster> 6502?
21:54:17 <ais523> an old-fashioned processor, and the first asm language I ever learnt
21:54:23 <ais523> the BBC Micro used it
21:54:23 <AnMaster> ais523, also doesn't x86 allow overflow in both without complaining iirc?
21:54:30 <MikeRiley> anmaster: your perl test script produces errors in my perl, which perl version does it expect?
21:54:31 <ais523> AnMaster: the 6502 didn't complain either
21:54:46 <AnMaster> BBC Micro, I always wondered, was it related to BBC the broadcasting compay?
21:54:49 <AnMaster> company*
21:54:56 <ais523> but you need to know whether there was overflow to chain its 8-bit additions into 16-bit or 32-bit additions
21:55:05 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, "This is perl, v5.8.8 built for x86_64-linux"
21:55:11 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, should be portable iirc
21:55:13 * AnMaster checks
21:55:32 <MikeRiley> most cpus had an overflow flag for doing arbitrarily long math...
21:55:43 <tusho> AnMaster: yes
21:55:43 <AnMaster> hm true
21:55:44 <tusho> they made it
21:55:52 <tusho> well
21:55:54 <tusho> Acorn did for them
21:55:55 <AnMaster> tusho, odd
21:56:00 <tusho> not really
21:56:02 <tusho> it was made for schools
21:56:09 <tusho> bbc provide a lot of multimedia for schools
21:56:14 <AnMaster> ah
21:56:27 <MikeRiley> anmaster, here is what i get from running perl.b98:
21:56:28 <MikeRiley> syntax error at -e line 1, near ""Hello world!\n";"
21:56:28 <MikeRiley> syntax error at -e line 1, next char )
21:56:28 <MikeRiley> Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
21:56:29 <AnMaster> ais523, ah yes...
21:56:31 <ais523> I think BBC Micro was related at least tangentially to the broadcasting company, partly because BBC Micro Mode 7 uses the same terminal-control language as Teletext uses
21:56:35 <ais523> for things like colours and so on
21:56:51 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I think this may be an issue with your implementation, it just does some basic stuff like printing hello world
21:56:52 <tusho> ais523: it was made by acorn for the bbc
21:57:00 <AnMaster> v "$x=" "' "Hello world!\n" "' "; print $x"0<
21:57:03 <AnMaster> that means...
21:57:04 <ais523> tusho: that would make sense
21:57:12 <MikeRiley> ok,,,hold on...let me try it with something that i know.....brb
21:57:24 <tusho> why doesn't PERL use 0"gnirts"
21:57:51 <AnMaster> wtf can't figure that out
21:58:31 <AnMaster> $x="Hello world\n"; print  $x"
21:58:33 <AnMaster> that should be it
21:58:34 <tusho> optbot
21:58:34 <optbot> tusho: wait.
21:58:37 <tusho> optbot: why
21:58:37 <optbot> tusho: I like my number generation algorithm :)
21:58:42 <tusho> optbot: why does that mean i have to wait
21:58:42 <optbot> tusho: and I might agree about the cleverness if I understood that ;)
21:58:46 <tusho> optbot: ???
21:58:46 <optbot> tusho:    /------\/
21:58:49 <tusho> optbot: wtf
21:58:49 <optbot> tusho: as indeed was I
21:58:50 <ais523> AnMaster: were you trying to run a Befunge program as Perl?
21:58:53 <tusho> optbot: have you gone mad
21:58:53 <optbot> tusho: but this does
21:58:55 <AnMaster> ais523, nop
21:58:57 <tusho> optbot: wtf!
21:58:57 <optbot> tusho: or maybe not
21:59:03 <AnMaster> ais523, I was trying to load a string on the stack
21:59:05 <AnMaster> that contained quotes
21:59:09 <AnMaster> that was the issue
21:59:11 <ais523> AnMaster: ah
21:59:18 <AnMaster> which is why I didn't understand the code
21:59:22 <AnMaster> but the code is correct I think
21:59:26 <tusho> ais523: when are we going to make that strongly-typed, lazy self-rewriting language?
21:59:29 <tusho> it'd be amazing
21:59:40 <tusho> (with no control structures apart from its self-rewriting of course)
21:59:40 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, anyway I guess your code does one quote too much in some way?
21:59:44 <MikeRiley> weird,,,wrote a simple test,,,,failed as well,,,,by mycology works,,,,weird.....
21:59:48 <ais523> tusho: after Feather and Underload and Underlambda and all the other stuff we're going to do
21:59:50 <tusho> (but extensible enough that you could implement regular control structures with it)
21:59:51 <tusho> ais523: :D
22:00:01 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, mycology probably doesn't test with quotes in the string to execute
22:00:06 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, so I guess the issue is there
22:00:12 <MikeRiley> checking perl.c ..... maybe there is something odd in there...
22:00:43 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, http://bzr.kuonet.org/cfunge/trunk/annotate/337?file_id=perl.c-20080415234024-e7mizpsvp1v9ole8-3
22:00:45 <AnMaster> that is my perl
22:00:49 <AnMaster> note code is horrible
22:00:59 <tusho> "because it's PERL LOL"
22:01:04 <ais523> tusho: strongly typed rewriting is easy
22:01:11 <tusho> ais523: not in the way I meant it
22:01:13 <ais523> you just rewrite at the parser tree level not at the token level
22:01:14 <AnMaster> tusho, because file descriptor stuff is messy
22:01:15 <AnMaster> that is why
22:01:23 <tusho> ais523: 'schating :)
22:01:36 <tusho> *s'cheating
22:01:47 <ais523> e.g. arguably OIL's a strongly typed rewriting language, but it rewrites something else not itself, if it rewrote itself it would be more of a rewriting language
22:02:26 <AnMaster> night all
22:02:37 <ais523> night AnMaster
22:03:05 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
22:03:13 <tusho> bye AnMaster
22:03:17 <tusho> ps. AnMaster
22:03:22 <tusho> is your name intentionally grammatically incorrect
22:03:45 <ais523> tusho: I don't think An is an article in eir nick
22:04:08 <tusho> what is it then :P
22:04:54 <tusho> ais523: by the way, why is yahoo.com alexa #1 but google.com alexa #2?
22:04:58 <tusho> surely google is more popular than yahoo
22:05:05 <tusho> or maybe alexa users are more prone to use yahoo
22:05:08 <tusho> if so why
22:05:26 <ais523> tusho: I think it's partly because google.com is just the search
22:05:33 <ais523> e.g. googlemail.com is a different domain
22:05:40 <ais523> whereas yahoo lump everything under one domain
22:05:41 <tusho> ais523: but mail.google.com is not
22:05:48 <tusho> type gmail.com
22:05:52 <tusho> and you go to mail.google.com
22:05:55 <ais523> ah, ok, so that isn't it
22:06:48 <ais523> ah, google.co.uk is at 23
22:06:50 <ais523> maybe that's it
22:07:02 <tusho> ais523: US users of google should still outway users of yahoo
22:07:09 <tusho> google is, like, the most popular site, ever
22:07:13 <tusho> except maybe msn
22:07:15 <ais523> and google.fr at 20
22:07:19 <tusho> (due to default homepageness)
22:07:25 <ais523> and google.de at 16
22:07:28 <AnMaster> tusho, just checking back
22:07:33 <AnMaster> yes it is intentional
22:07:37 <AnMaster> becuase it is my initials
22:07:41 <AnMaster> An are my initials
22:07:42 <tusho> AnMaster: ah
22:07:42 <ais523> so I'm not convinced that Google&&US > Yahoo anywhere
22:07:46 <AnMaster> or rather AN are
22:07:48 <tusho> AnMaster: so you are the master of ... yourself?
22:08:02 <AnMaster> tusho, now stop trying to find hidden meanings in it :P
22:08:02 <MikeRiley> perl module working correctly now....
22:08:08 <tusho> AnMaster: i still don't get it :P
22:08:15 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't get your nick either
22:08:25 <AnMaster> there are lots of odd nicks
22:08:32 <ais523> my nick is odd
22:08:36 <ais523> if it were ais524 it would be even
22:08:42 <tusho> har har har
22:08:44 <AnMaster> hehe
22:08:51 <AnMaster> well I can guess of the cause of that
22:08:53 <tusho> AnMaster: my name = random pronouncableness that is relatively google-empty
22:08:55 <AnMaster> ais was used
22:09:00 <AnMaster> add some random numbers
22:09:01 <tusho> AnMaster: ais is his initial
22:09:01 <tusho> s
22:09:04 <AnMaster> result ais523
22:09:04 <tusho> its his university name
22:09:06 <ais523> I tried to just /nick 523
22:09:09 <ais523> but it wouldn't let me
22:09:12 <tusho> apparently there have been 522 ais' before him
22:09:22 <AnMaster> ais523, why 523?
22:09:26 <ais523> tusho: I use ais523 everywhere since the number 523 was randomly alloted to my username
22:09:29 <tusho> i just told you AnMaster
22:09:32 <tusho> at his uni
22:09:39 <ais523> and the number 523 has no reason behind it at all other than an effectively random process
22:09:40 <tusho> there have been 522 people with the initials ais before him
22:09:46 <tusho> so he got ais523, presumably
22:10:41 <AnMaster> oh
22:10:43 <AnMaster> night
22:10:48 <tusho> night
22:11:22 <ais523> night
22:11:28 <ais523> optbot: say night
22:11:29 <optbot> ais523: false, surely true, surely false...
22:11:36 <tusho> optbot: deep
22:11:37 <optbot> tusho: <Deewiant> AnMaster: :-D, not everything 4-char is a Befunge fingerprint ;-)
22:11:39 <ais523> well, that's about the best we can get out of em...
22:11:42 <tusho> well, he mentioned AnMaster
22:11:44 <tusho> :)
22:12:04 <ais523> tusho: how do you know optbot isn't female?
22:12:04 <optbot> ais523: dvorak kind of suffers from that as well
22:12:13 <tusho> ais523: statistics
22:12:16 <tusho> he repeats what we say
22:12:19 <tusho> we are almost all male
22:12:20 <tusho> QED
22:12:20 <ais523> wow, Dvorak was really female?
22:12:26 <tusho> hah
22:12:40 -!- MikeRiley has quit ("Leaving").
22:13:40 <tusho> we need a new topic
22:13:41 <tusho> optbot!
22:13:41 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | are anybody here?.
22:13:44 <tusho> heh
22:13:57 <M0ny> lol
22:14:03 <M0ny> i love this bot :p
22:14:30 <tusho> i'll feel kind of bad when botte is done and optbot merely becomes a plugin of botte...
22:14:30 <optbot> tusho: failed :<
22:14:31 <tusho> :(
22:14:38 <tusho> see, even optbot is upset about it
22:14:38 <optbot> tusho: of course, the dollar was much more valuable 6 months ago :-)
22:14:40 <tusho> he doesn't want to fail
22:14:42 <M0ny> useless but... indispensable
22:14:55 <tusho> M0ny: totally
22:15:16 <M0ny> optbot, do u think that too ,
22:15:16 <optbot> M0ny: http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/
22:15:16 <M0ny> ?
22:15:31 * tusho shrugs
22:15:46 <ais523> optbot: indispensable?
22:15:46 <optbot> ais523: how do you guys pronounce 'Malbolge'?
22:16:03 * tusho pets optbot
22:16:03 <optbot> tusho: leave the pointer in the same cell
22:16:07 <tusho> optbot: OK
22:16:07 <optbot> tusho: yes
22:16:12 <tusho> optbot: yes?
22:16:12 <optbot> tusho: Well that would explain it.
22:16:15 <tusho> optbot: indeed
22:16:15 <optbot> tusho: You can write notes on the tape, and the interpreter would read them with the PC speaker
22:16:23 <ais523> umm... as three syllables, although I can see how it could be pronounced with 2
22:16:38 <M0ny> like Malb-Olge
22:16:39 <tusho> mal - bolge
22:16:41 <tusho> pretty simple
22:16:42 <tusho> :P
22:16:46 <tusho> bolj
22:16:51 <tusho> mal - bolj
22:16:59 <ais523> I pronounce it mal-bolg-uh
22:17:11 <tusho> ah
22:17:12 <tusho> I don't
22:17:14 <ais523> so quite a variance
22:17:22 <ais523> I can see how your pronunciation would work too though
22:17:32 <tusho> how is the layer of hell pronounced
22:17:44 <ais523> I don't know that either
22:17:45 <olsner> I say it mal-bolj
22:17:46 <ais523> but it has an extra e
22:17:56 <ais523> I imagine it's pronounced the same way
22:17:58 <tusho> male - bolg - e
22:18:05 <tusho> that's probably it
22:18:08 <tusho> maelbolge
22:18:39 <olsner> malebolge should probable be pronounces in italian though
22:18:53 <olsner> apparently it means something like "the evil ditch"
22:19:17 <M0ny> i say it in french
22:19:37 <M0ny> mal (evil) bol (cup) je (like I)
22:19:53 <M0ny> quite easy :p
22:19:56 <tusho> evil cup like I
22:19:57 <tusho> XD
22:20:56 <ais523> ah, I pronounce it with a hard g but otherwise the same as M0ny
22:21:12 <M0ny> lol tusho :p
22:21:29 <ais523> optbot certainly seems good at inspiring discussions
22:21:30 <optbot> ais523: because that would be the same as [...]
22:21:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:21:42 <ais523> ... which would be the same as [.]?
22:21:54 <tusho> I don't think optbot was talking about brainfuck
22:21:54 <optbot> tusho: ifuckinghatetheplatformyouhavetogoonbeforetheroombeforemiketyson
22:22:01 <tusho> ...
22:22:02 <tusho> erm, okay
22:22:11 <tusho> optbot: playing IWBTG are we?
22:22:11 <optbot> tusho: I'm adding auto-login support.
22:22:15 <tusho> ... to IWBTG?
22:22:19 <ais523> IWBTG?
22:22:25 <M0ny> lol
22:22:27 <tusho> ais523: I Wanna Be the Guy: The Movie: The Game
22:22:34 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Wanna_Be_The_Guy
22:22:36 <ais523> hmm...
22:22:46 <ais523> autologin support to Tetris would be an interesting concept
22:22:52 <ais523> optbot: say something
22:22:52 <optbot> ais523: HAI. CAN HAS STDIO? VISIBLE "HAI WORLD!".  KTHXBYE.
22:22:53 <tusho> 8-bit style platformer that is designed to be like all the hardest NES games put together, times 500000
22:22:58 <ais523> NOT IN LOLCODE....
22:23:09 <tusho> ais523: oh no
22:23:11 <ais523> bad optbot!
22:23:11 <optbot> ais523: oh?
22:23:18 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.).
22:23:26 -!- jix has joined.
22:23:29 <ais523> now optbot's imitating AnMaster
22:23:30 <optbot> ais523: I doubt they'll be related to your code
22:23:43 <tusho> psst...optbot... non-portable code
22:23:44 <optbot> tusho: jabber?!
22:23:48 <tusho> HAHAAHHAHAHAA
22:24:02 <ais523> jabber's portable though I think, isn't it/
22:24:05 <ais523> s/\//?/
22:24:08 <ais523> at least the protocol
22:24:11 <ais523> right, optbot?
22:24:11 <optbot> ais523: (push number - a second. then any interval, corresponding to the actual number. Then pop - a unison)
22:24:14 <tusho> jabber's protocol is xml
22:24:41 <M0ny> optbot, does aliens exist ?
22:24:41 <optbot> M0ny: You have a valid program you want to compile, yet it can never be compiled
22:25:07 <tusho> that's a rather metaphorical take on that...
22:25:26 <M0ny> he bypass the subject :p
22:25:36 <tusho> nah its just a phiisophical look
22:25:37 <tusho> at it :D
22:25:40 <ais523> nah, optbot was just trying to give a tangential example
22:25:41 <optbot> ais523: oh
22:25:47 <ais523> optbot: you weren't?
22:25:47 <optbot> ais523: ::bites oklopol::
22:25:56 <ais523> optbot: ok that's just vicious
22:25:56 <optbot> ais523: *that
22:25:58 <M0ny> optbot, binary
22:25:58 <optbot> M0ny: oh noes!~
22:26:04 <tusho> ::bites oklopol:: is an augur line
22:26:06 <M0ny> optbot, 01010110100101011010010101
22:26:06 <optbot> M0ny: you know what? i hate you
22:26:07 <ais523> optbot: I got it right first time...
22:26:07 <optbot> ais523: Who was it that thought it would be cruel to bring children into the world because the world would end soon?
22:26:11 <M0ny> :o
22:26:20 <M0ny> ok... thank u optbot -_-
22:26:20 <optbot> M0ny: Err
22:26:26 <M0ny> oh, ok :)
22:26:28 <tusho> haha
22:26:29 <tusho> [22:25:57] <ais523> optbot: ok that's just vicious
22:26:29 <tusho> [22:25:57] <optbot> ais523: *that
22:26:29 <optbot> tusho: it was part of the original division routine in the system library
22:26:29 <optbot> tusho: i dont know, i cant speak for thousands of people that i'm not.
22:26:33 <tusho> that's brilliant
22:26:55 <ais523> tusho: I should have misspelt that, it would have been truly funny then
22:27:42 <tusho> optbot: say something amusing
22:27:43 <optbot> tusho: "tieto" is "knowledge"
22:27:48 <tusho> optbot: don't say something amusing
22:27:49 <optbot> tusho: converting to s-exprs is basically parsing.
22:27:52 <tusho> :(
22:27:54 <ais523> optbot: that's insightful, not amusing
22:27:54 <optbot> ais523: convert to a binary church and it's easy
22:28:08 <ais523> optbot: ok, clearly you do insightful better
22:28:08 <optbot> ais523: yeah
22:28:14 <tusho> heh
22:28:27 <tusho> binary church...
22:28:30 <tusho> odd concept :D
22:28:48 <ais523> tusho: both church as in religion and church as in church numerals it's an odd concept
22:29:25 <ais523> optbot: ^
22:29:26 <optbot> ais523: agreed
22:29:34 <tusho> heh
22:29:37 <ais523> optbot: then why did you say it?
22:29:37 <optbot> ais523: tusho has just moved the C-INTERCAL repo to http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/
22:29:44 <tusho> XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
22:29:56 <ais523> optbot: ok, thanks for warning me...
22:29:56 <optbot> ais523: Hmm - various sources are saying that it's possible to write/call subroutines in brainfuck without code duplication, using a mangled loop? o.O
22:30:06 <M0ny> lol
22:30:15 <ais523> optbot: ...and it's still there apparently, beyond all belief
22:30:15 <optbot> ais523: You're changing the subject, BUB!
22:30:19 <M0ny> optbot, cmeme
22:30:19 <optbot> M0ny: ok
22:30:23 <M0ny> arf
22:30:44 <M0ny> optbot, highlight
22:30:45 <optbot> M0ny: still trying to figure out how I'm going to actually do assigns and ++/--
22:30:56 <tusho> optbot: is highlight an esolang?
22:30:56 <optbot> tusho: So if we pass in a |0>, we get |0+>, if we pass in a |1>, we get |1->, if we pass in a |+>, we get |+0>, and if we pass in |->, we get |-1>.
22:31:03 <tusho> optbot: hmm, odd esolang
22:31:03 <optbot> tusho: wow
22:31:11 <tusho> so optbot - do cool URIs change?
22:31:12 <optbot> tusho: and contains no free names
22:31:14 <tusho> optbot!
22:31:14 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Any more pebble.bfm insanity?.
22:31:18 <tusho> optbot!
22:31:18 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | @join.
22:31:18 <ais523> optbot: seems like quantum Brainfuck
22:31:19 <optbot> ais523: why should they? norwegians understand english
22:31:23 <M0ny> optbot!
22:31:23 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i understand that completely.
22:31:27 <tusho> YES
22:31:29 <tusho> LEAVE THAT
22:31:37 <M0ny> :°
22:31:50 <ais523> optbot: yes but why not just write in norwegian?
22:31:50 <optbot> ais523: because it's a pledge
22:32:01 <tusho> hah
22:32:14 <tusho> optbot: i guess that's the whole have to see it before agreeing, right? agoran pledges
22:32:15 <optbot> tusho: http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/stuff/selfmd5.py
22:32:17 <ais523> tusho: you should get optbot to register in Agora
22:32:17 <optbot> ais523: You said it was
22:32:28 <tusho> ais523: did you tell em e was registered?
22:32:30 <tusho> that's not very nice
22:32:37 <ais523> tusho: optbot: no I didn't
22:32:38 <optbot> ais523: very.
22:32:51 <M0ny> optbot, do u speak french ?
22:32:51 <optbot> M0ny: umix=
22:32:52 <ais523> optbot: well it didn't reach a-b at any rate
22:32:53 <optbot> ais523: :)
22:33:05 <M0ny> :p
22:33:10 <tusho> ais523: hmm, I'd have to rewrite optbot to read ##nomic instead and send to a-b
22:33:10 <optbot> tusho: you finnish?
22:33:11 <tusho> but that would rock
22:33:12 <tusho> :D
22:33:15 <tusho> optbot: no why
22:33:15 <optbot> tusho: although the collisions did fail especially with a larger amount of objects
22:33:32 <ais523> optbot: ICFP too?
22:33:32 <optbot> ais523: like said, I wouldn't worry about reading Mycology
22:33:38 <M0ny> in wich language is optbot ?
22:33:38 <optbot> M0ny: what are missing of the required f98 features are only negative funge-space, multiple stacks (though quite a bit of that is done) and the fingerprint based loading
22:33:42 <tusho> M0ny: ruby
22:33:53 <tusho> took like 2 seconds
22:33:58 <ais523> tusho: I think optbot's trying to implement Funge-98, at least based on eir last 2 comments
22:33:59 <optbot> ais523: why? for obfuscation purposes?
22:34:04 <tusho> HAHAHA
22:34:16 <ais523> correction, optbot's trying to translate emself into Funge-98
22:34:16 <optbot> ais523: I think it's possible without maintaining your own function stack in most cases
22:34:34 <tusho> anyway, I hacked up like ten lines to read the logs and choose something from them, then added a socket, then added a thread that sleeps a lot and changes the topic, then added this event handler when it hears something in a channel
22:34:39 <tusho> no special irc libs or whatnot
22:34:44 <tusho> [22:34:17] <ais523> correction, optbot's trying to translate emself into Funge-98
22:34:44 <optbot> tusho: No
22:34:45 <tusho> [22:34:17] <optbot> ais523: I think it's possible without maintaining your own function stack in most cases
22:34:45 <optbot> tusho: By New including a Zealand if the string is "".
22:34:46 <tusho> my god......
22:34:48 <tusho> that's perfect
22:34:55 <ais523> tusho: yes, it is
22:35:16 <M0ny> ruby... :)
22:35:21 <M0ny> optbot, ruby
22:35:22 <optbot> M0ny: well all libcs in fact
22:35:29 <tusho> isn't it funny how, after - what - 50 years of AI, the most convincing merely randomly repeats lines
22:35:30 <tusho> :)
22:35:50 <M0ny> lol
22:36:39 <M0ny> hum...
22:36:44 <M0ny> good night all ;)
22:36:48 * M0ny is away: zZz
22:37:04 <ais523> optbot: <tusho> isn't it funny how, after - what - 50 years of AI, the most convincing merely randomly repeats lines
22:37:04 <optbot> ais523: would make it way more esoteric
22:37:10 <tusho> haha
22:37:13 <ais523> well, optbot doesn't convince me as an AI, but I still think it's useful
22:37:13 <optbot> ais523: IN BRAINFUCK.
22:37:19 <tusho> LOL
22:37:25 <ais523> optbot: STOP SHOUTING
22:37:25 <optbot> ais523: hi calamari
22:37:37 <ais523> ok that just completely breaks the illusion
22:37:39 <tusho> it wants to eat you ais523
22:37:51 <ais523> optbot: really?
22:37:51 <optbot> ais523: Which interp? PSOX interpreter? Esolang interpreter?
22:37:51 <M0ny> lool
22:38:06 <M0ny> do u know brainfuck optbot ?
22:38:06 <optbot> M0ny: i can try.
22:38:12 <M0ny> good luck ;)
22:38:29 <ais523> M0ny: but BF's only a few lines in Ruby, optbot should be able to learn it easily
22:38:30 <optbot> ais523: ~bf >,[>,]<.[<.]!Hello, world!
22:38:35 <ais523> see what I mean?
22:38:45 <tusho> heh
22:38:47 <ais523> tusho: ^
22:38:48 <M0ny> ya
22:38:51 <ais523> oh, you've already seen it
22:39:00 <M0ny> :p
22:39:05 <psygnisfive> is bf really only a few lines in ruby?
22:39:09 <tusho> psygnisfive: yes
22:39:16 <tusho> bf is astoundingly trivial :D
22:39:17 <psygnisfive> oh do show tusho
22:39:20 <ais523> ah, that dates back from the time when I tought bsmnt_bot Brainfuck, it's using my syntax
22:39:20 <tusho> sure
22:39:21 <tusho> gimme a sec
22:39:27 <psygnisfive> you like my double rhyme? ;D
22:39:29 <ais523> it took me ages but in the end I got it down to three lines
22:39:38 <ais523> let me try to find them
22:40:04 <ais523> ~exec self.bf3="def bfarg(x,y):\n p=y.group(2)\n a=y.group(3)+unichr(0)\n o=''\n p=p+'!'\n t=[0]*30000\n i=0\n l=0\n while p[i]!='!':\n if p[i]=='[' and t[l]==0:\n c=1\n while c>0:\n i=i+1\n if p[i]=='[': c=c+1\n if p[i]==']': c=c-1\n if p[i]==']' and t[l]!=0:\n c=1\n while c>0:\n i=i-1\n if p[i]==']': c=c+1\n if p[i]=='[': c=c-1\n"
22:40:04 <ais523> ~exec self.bf4=" if p[i]=='+': t[l]=t[l]+1\n if p[i]=='-': t[l]=t[l]-1\n if p[i]=='<': l=l-1\n if p[i]=='>': l=l+1\n if p[i]=='.': o=o+unichr(t[l])\n if p[i]==',':\n t[l]=ord(a[0])\n a=a[1:]\n i=i+1\nsys.stdout(o)\nself. register_raw(r'\S+ PRIVMSG (\S+) :~bf ([^!]*)!?(.*)',bfarg)"
22:40:04 <ais523> ~exec exec(self.bf3+self.bf4)
22:40:24 <ais523> those three commands teach bsmnt_bot Brainfuck from scratch, which fit with the command optbot repeated above
22:40:24 <optbot> ais523: <GregorR> And punycode's base offset is above ASCII
22:40:37 <ais523> tusho: why the name optbot, anyway?
22:40:38 <psygnisfive> thats an ugly bit of code but ok.
22:40:38 <optbot> ais523: i think i'm an atheist for the same reason a lot of people are christian....
22:40:56 <ais523> psygnisfive: well, you try writing an indentation-dependent lang like Python over IRC
22:41:14 <psygnisfive> ;)
22:41:15 <ais523> oh dear, it looks like actually it's been mangled somehow
22:41:21 <ais523> the number of spaces after each \n should vary
22:41:36 <psygnisfive> ais, it aint the having to write it over irc
22:41:39 <psygnisfive> its that its python. ;)
22:41:39 <ais523> and they don't on the file I have
22:41:51 <ais523> still, grepping the logs should find the true source easily enough
22:42:01 <ais523> it seems my copy got word-wrapped somewhere along the line...
22:44:56 <tusho> psygnisfive
22:44:58 <tusho> [[eval code.gsub(/[^+-,.<>\[\]]/,"").gsub("+","tape[ptr]||=0;tape[ptr]+=1;").
22:44:58 <tusho>   gsub("-","tape[ptr]||=0;tape[ptr]-=1;").gsub("<","ptr-=1;").
22:44:58 <tusho>   gsub(">","ptr+=1").gsub(",","tape[ptr]||=0;tape[ptr]=$stdin.getc;").
22:44:58 <tusho>   gsub(".","tape[ptr]||=0;print tape[ptr].chr;").
22:45:08 <tusho>   gsub("[","tape[ptr]||=0;until tape[ptr].zero?;").gsub("]", "end;")
22:45:09 <tusho> ]]
22:45:10 <tusho> the tape[ptr]||=0 should go in < and >, whatever
22:45:30 <ais523> tusho: did you just write that?
22:45:34 <tusho> yes
22:45:34 <tusho> :p
22:45:40 <ais523> I can easily believe you did, based on how simple BF is
22:45:47 <tusho> i initially started to write an interp but then realised a compiler is far more trivial
22:45:54 <tusho> and I did it in one chain of methods, just 'cause
22:45:57 <ais523> and yes, should go in >, technically speaking there's no need to bother about <
22:46:05 <tusho> yeah whatever
22:46:06 <tusho> :)
22:46:50 <ais523> hey, has anagolf really never had a BF interp competition?
22:46:59 <tusho> ? surely
22:47:08 <ais523> that's what I thought
22:47:11 <ais523> but I can't find one, looking
22:47:12 <tusho> hmph
22:47:14 <tusho> i'll submit one
22:47:15 <ais523> and nothing's running there right now
22:47:17 <tusho> including mandelbrot
22:47:19 <tusho> just because i'm a bastard
22:47:26 <ais523> tusho: make sure the programs are output-only
22:47:27 <tusho> never terminating, I assume
22:47:29 <tusho> since it's a staple
22:47:32 <tusho> ais523: yes
22:47:34 <tusho> hmm
22:47:34 <tusho> no
22:47:36 <psygnisfive> oh i see.
22:47:38 <tusho> I'll make them support ! syntax
22:47:39 <ais523> tusho: I say terminating
22:47:39 <tusho> :DDD
22:47:41 <ais523> so we get to see them
22:47:45 <tusho> well, okay
22:47:48 <tusho> but I'll do input programs
22:47:48 <ais523> it's not /that/ staple
22:47:59 <ais523> yes, input with ! syntax is probably best
22:48:04 <ais523> and make the output so large that embed is unwise
22:48:45 <tusho> ais523: can you write a hugely-producing brainfuck program
22:48:49 <tusho> but that only outputs printable chrs
22:48:58 <pikhq> Trivial.
22:49:05 <ais523> tusho: it wouldn't be too hard
22:49:07 <tusho> pikhq: ... that isn't easily compressable
22:49:19 <ais523> let's think, making it non-easily-compressable would be harder
22:49:25 <pikhq> tusho: Define 'easily compressable'.
22:49:39 <ais523> pikhq: you can write a program that produces that output in a short space
22:49:39 <tusho> pikhq: Nitpick. Oh, wait.
22:49:41 <ais523> that's the issue
22:49:50 <ais523> because clearly we want to write that program in BF
22:49:54 <pikhq> Of course, making something not easily compressable for *any* Brainfuck program is non-trivial. . .
22:49:58 <ais523> so the program's going to have to be quite long to avoid easy compressability
22:50:07 <ais523> pikhq: actually, any short program in any lang
22:50:07 <pikhq> Brainfuck itself does not have high entropy.
22:50:28 <tusho> ais523: anagolf handles terminating newlines right
22:50:31 <ais523> the problem is to write a BF program whose output is easier to produce by running the BF program than it is by translating the BF program into some other language
22:50:41 <ais523> tusho: I think so, but it can be a pain to submit the problem correctly if you do that
22:50:42 <pikhq> Ah.
22:50:54 <ais523> try avoiding terminating newlines and going to the end of your submission and backspacing to make sure
22:51:00 <pikhq> The phrase 'easily compressable' should not be applied to that, though...
22:51:01 -!- Corun has joined.
22:51:11 <pikhq> Since Brainfuck is by definition easily compressable.
22:51:26 <ais523> yes, it's easily compressible output we're referring to
22:51:41 <ais523> but the output of any short program is also by definition easily compressible, unless it involves randomness somehow
22:52:00 <tusho> guh
22:52:01 <tusho> pikhq
22:52:05 <tusho> can you run mandelbrot.b for me
22:52:07 <tusho> and pastebin the output
22:52:12 <tusho> i am without a fast bf it seems
22:52:18 <tusho> wait
22:52:19 <tusho> nm
22:52:24 <ais523> tusho: do you have a link to mandlebrot.b?
22:52:38 <tusho> ais523: 'sok
22:52:41 <pikhq> Compile egobfi8.
22:52:44 <tusho> http://swapped.cc/bf/files/mandelbrot.b
22:52:45 <tusho> oooh
22:52:48 <tusho> http://swapped.cc/bf/files/random.b
22:52:52 <tusho> rule 110-based random
22:52:52 <ais523> tusho: ah, I rember what happened, codegolf had a BF interp competition, that's probably why anagold didn't
22:53:06 <ais523> tusho: that'll be so embed-worthy unless you generate hugely lots of output with it
22:53:14 <tusho> true
22:53:16 <tusho> oh well
22:53:22 * tusho runs mandelbrot.b
22:54:08 <ais523> tusho: it doesn't take input
22:54:12 <ais523> I grepped for ,
22:54:12 <tusho> of course
22:54:17 <tusho> that's for the next test
22:54:49 <ais523> tusho: no way mandlebrot.b will run in anagolf's time limit
22:54:56 <tusho> ok true
22:55:00 <tusho> any suggestions?
22:55:36 <tusho> reasonably-fast, very-long brainfuck program, taking-input that is way easier to execute instead of translate to another lang
22:55:58 <ais523> well you could convert a long text output to BF using a text-to-BF program
22:56:05 <ais523> leading to a long but quickly-executing BF program
22:56:11 <tusho> good idea
22:56:18 <tusho> i'll make it unoptimized
22:56:29 <tusho> how about...
22:56:30 <ais523> make sure at least one program has nested loops, though
22:56:31 <tusho> the constitution :P
22:56:42 <tusho> hmm
22:56:43 <tusho> but ais523
22:56:45 <tusho> we need to test input
22:56:56 <ais523> tusho: rot13 with long input?
22:57:09 <tusho> ais523: okay
22:58:03 <ais523> wow, after running mandelbrot.b I had a sudden urge to translate nethack into Brainfuck somehow
22:58:23 <pikhq> The closest I could get is translating an adventure-style game into Brainfuck.
22:58:38 <ais523> well, we really need a C to BF compiler
22:58:48 <pikhq> Gregor Richard's C2BF.
22:58:49 <ais523> I've been toying in my mind with the idea of writing a BF backend to gcc
22:58:54 <ais523> and then compiling Linux for BF
22:59:02 <pikhq> Needs some work, of course.
22:59:14 <ais523> hmm... maybe compiling qemu to BF would be more useful?
22:59:27 <tusho> ok
22:59:28 <tusho> final program?
22:59:30 <pikhq> Given that qemu can run without an MMU... ;)
22:59:42 <tusho> just something to round it off, I guess
23:00:01 <ais523> tusho: I reckon a short program with lots of repetitive output
23:00:05 <ais523> but I'm not sure what
23:00:23 <tusho> oooh
23:00:25 <tusho> ais523: a quine
23:00:40 <ais523> could be a good idea but quines are really vulnerable to embed tactics
23:00:46 <tusho> tru
23:00:46 <tusho> e
23:00:50 <tusho> how about a narcissus program
23:00:51 <tusho> or whatever
23:00:54 <ais523> make it a quine-seed
23:00:58 <ais523> that outputs a quine
23:00:59 <ais523> but isn't a quine
23:01:04 <tusho> well
23:01:06 <ais523> they're normally easier than quines themselves to write
23:01:07 <tusho> show me one
23:01:08 <tusho> ;)
23:01:12 <tusho> ah wait
23:01:15 <tusho> hm
23:01:17 <tusho> no
23:01:27 <tusho> ais523: how about numwarp.b
23:01:34 <ais523> what's that?
23:01:39 <tusho> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/numwarp.b
23:01:44 <tusho> sample output http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/numwarp.png
23:02:05 <ais523> sounds good
23:02:18 <ais523> now, remember to test all your programs and outputs on a real BF interp first
23:02:33 <ais523> it helps to have an entry prewritten just to test that you got everything right
23:03:49 <tusho> i copied the output directly
23:03:50 <tusho> so
23:03:59 <tusho> submit'd
23:04:45 <ais523> tusho: do you think that rot13 will run in under a second?
23:04:52 <tusho> ais523: I hope so.
23:05:26 <tusho> Hm.
23:05:27 <tusho> No.
23:05:27 <tusho> It own't.
23:05:41 <ais523> have you just tried on a fast BF interp at your end?
23:05:42 <tusho> Not by far. Shit.
23:05:48 <tusho> ais523: that's the one program I didn't test
23:05:51 <tusho> 9.5 seconds
23:06:06 <ais523> ok looks like my entry will have to be optimised in C then...
23:06:25 <tusho> ais523: bff is the second-fastest interp
23:06:27 <tusho> good luck with that
23:07:50 <pikhq> I've found egobfi8 to be very fast, myself. . .
23:07:50 <ais523> yes, the fastest interp at this end is taking a lot more than a second
23:07:54 <pikhq> Your opinions, tusho?
23:08:07 <tusho> pikhq: It is nowhere near the speed of bff or that one by that guy.
23:08:11 <tusho> Sorry.
23:08:12 <ais523> real0m45.033s
23:08:12 <ais523> user0m22.685s
23:08:12 <ais523> sys0m0.184s
23:08:19 <pikhq> Aaaaww.
23:08:30 <tusho> pikhq: However, it is more flexible due to its various options.
23:08:32 <tusho> They have their niches.
23:08:49 * pikhq wants to make a JITing brainfuck interpreter now... :p
23:09:21 <tusho> ooh
23:09:21 <tusho> ⁉
23:09:24 <tusho> not an interrobang
23:09:28 <tusho> an "exclamation question mark"
23:09:30 <tusho> ⁉⁉⁉⁉⁉⁉⁉⁉
23:09:48 <ais523> tusho: people will just end up embedding the rot13
23:09:51 <ais523> try a smaller source text?
23:09:58 <tusho> yeah okay
23:10:00 <tusho> what do you suggest :P
23:10:12 <ais523> a BF interp
23:10:21 <pikhq> String reversal?
23:10:22 <pikhq> :p
23:10:36 <ais523> you know, so it's short
23:11:04 <tusho> heh okay
23:11:11 <tusho> ais523: wait, no
23:11:12 <tusho> how about
23:11:17 <tusho> a reverse program
23:11:18 <tusho> on a bf interp
23:11:22 <tusho> hmm
23:11:26 <tusho> let's just let them embed it
23:11:35 <ais523> no that defeats the point
23:11:49 <tusho> ais523: embedding is allowed in anagolf
23:12:19 <ais523> yes, I know
23:12:27 <ais523> but a non-embed solution should be /possible/...
23:12:28 <tusho> i dunno - give me a good program & output and I'll do it
23:12:44 <ais523> nah, I'm trying to see how fast the rot13 thing runs embed
23:12:49 <ais523> I'm getting a rot13 program out of the repos atm
23:12:56 <ais523> and I'm going to see how long it takes on your input
23:13:08 <tusho> gah
23:13:19 <tusho> i just wanna submit a fixed version
23:13:43 <ais523> real0m0.585s
23:13:58 <ais523> that's embed, so it can be fast enough...
23:14:17 <ais523> real0m0.280s when piped to devnull
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23:15:56 <tusho> new bf submitted
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23:19:44 <tusho> hah
23:19:45 <tusho> still too slow
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23:29:33 <tusho> optbot
23:29:33 <optbot> tusho: i guess i misunderstood you
23:29:35 <tusho> optbot: really?
23:29:36 <optbot> tusho: I liked it a lot too.
23:29:38 <tusho> optbot: aww
23:29:38 <optbot> tusho: a box of apples and a string.
23:29:40 <tusho> optbot: really
23:29:40 <optbot> tusho: Sure.
23:29:42 <tusho> optbot: ok
23:29:42 <optbot> tusho: this ubersoft comic sucks
23:29:46 <tusho> optbot: agreed
23:29:47 <optbot> tusho: the stats would require some sort of centralised server
23:29:50 <tusho> optbot: really?
23:29:50 <optbot> tusho: brb
23:29:52 <tusho> k
23:29:54 <tusho> optbot!
23:29:54 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | though perhaps it's too bloated in your mind ;).
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23:43:01 <tusho> optbot?
23:43:01 <optbot> tusho: it would help using integers as integers
23:43:03 <tusho> optbot!
23:43:03 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://pastebin.ca/raw/158551.
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23:48:43 -!- irc.freenode.net has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | exactly.

2008-08-09:

00:08:31 <tusho> optbot!
00:08:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | not really.
00:08:39 <tusho> the backlog is a lie
00:14:31 <psygnisfive> optbot!
00:14:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | a(a).
00:14:34 <psygnisfive> Optbot!
00:14:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Sure it is..
00:14:35 <psygnisfive> OPTBOT!
00:14:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 111 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++>++<<<<-]>-.>>.>++.<<<------.>-----.>++++.+.<+.<.>-----.>-.<<.++.>..<. [640].
00:14:36 <psygnisfive> HOOOOO!
00:15:00 <psygnisfive> a(a)?
00:15:15 <psygnisfive> algorithmics anonymous?
00:18:18 <tusho> psygnisfive: 77
00:18:26 <psygnisfive> what?
00:19:10 <tusho> 777777
00:21:14 <psygnisfive> oko?
00:22:55 <tusho> optbot: oko
00:22:55 <optbot> tusho: It's capable of inferring and Doing What You Mean.
00:23:01 <tusho> that's oko alright
00:23:08 <psygnisfive> :)
00:24:28 <tusho> optbot: so, oko
00:24:29 <optbot> tusho: they just have more stuff.
00:24:33 <tusho> optbot: yeah oko has a lot of stuff
00:24:33 <optbot> tusho: shorter numbers, obviously
00:24:41 <tusho> optbot: yea numbers can be expressed really short in oko
00:24:42 <optbot> tusho: because:
00:24:45 <tusho> optbot: because...
00:24:45 <optbot> tusho: Yey! The logs are RealTime!
00:24:50 <tusho> optbot: how is that relevant?
00:24:50 <optbot> tusho: :D
00:24:52 <tusho> optbot: ok.
00:24:53 <optbot> tusho: and that this competion doesn't allow much creativity
00:25:04 <psygnisfive> lmfao
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00:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yeah.
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00:56:00 <lament> [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[-]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
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03:51:42 <psygnisfive> MURGLE
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05:59:34 <Sgeo> Bye all
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06:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ~bf +[].
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09:32:10 * M0ny is back (gone 10:55:24)
09:32:12 <M0ny> hi there
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09:36:41 <AnMaster> M0ny, please turn off that autoaway/autoback announce
09:36:45 <AnMaster> * M0ny is back (gone 10:55:24)
09:37:02 <M0ny> hum... i can't
09:37:08 <AnMaster> what do you mean?
09:37:36 <AnMaster> M0ny, I'm sure there is some setting in your irc client for it
09:37:38 <M0ny> i can't turn off that... 'cause it's usefull with the others channels
09:37:44 <AnMaster> M0ny, it isn't
09:37:49 <AnMaster> M0ny, please read http://sackheads.org/~bnaylor/spew/away_msgs.html
09:38:14 <fizzie> Strange channels, those; I thought those "I'm back"-messages were universally reviled.
09:38:38 <AnMaster> "No definitions were found for reviled."
09:38:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, ^
09:39:42 <M0ny> yeah
09:39:46 <M0ny> nice :)
09:39:50 <fizzie> revile, Verb, [-viling, -viled] to be abusively scornful of: his works were reviled and admired in equal measure
09:39:51 <AnMaster> but if it means "hated" then I agree
09:40:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, never seen a channel that likes public away messages
09:40:14 <AnMaster> and I hope M0ny will turn it off
09:40:18 <M0ny> ok, AnMaster, that's it
09:40:22 <M0ny> yeah
09:40:24 <M0ny> look
09:40:31 <M0ny> i'm away
09:40:33 <AnMaster> you can still use /whois
09:40:41 <AnMaster> * [M0ny] is away (I will be back !)
09:40:54 <M0ny> i'm back
09:41:07 <AnMaster> well no need to mention it on the channel :)
09:41:17 <M0ny> ;)
09:41:25 <M0ny> sorry ^^
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10:44:19 <M0ny> bye
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11:20:54 <tusho> y helo dar
11:23:44 <tusho> p.s. anmaster nobody really cares all that much
11:25:01 <tusho> it is a bit annoying
11:25:15 <tusho> but I didn't ask m0ny to turn it off because it's not worth the effort asking him
11:26:32 <oklopol> i definitely wanna know where people are, all the time
11:26:52 <tusho> oh, and my client automatically nicks me to tusho|away
11:26:57 <tusho> i am not turning it off because it's work and I don't care
11:27:19 <tusho> it also does auto-away
12:31:01 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho|away.
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12:31:58 <tusho> see?
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12:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | caaaaaaaaaaaaalimari.
12:42:27 <tusho> hah
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13:02:37 <tusho> optbot: discuss
13:02:37 <optbot> tusho: not such an accurate quine then
13:02:45 <tusho> optbot:  that wasn't a quine
13:02:45 <optbot> tusho: ?
13:02:49 <tusho> optbot: :\ make more sense
13:02:49 <optbot> tusho: non-integers don't exist in the language yet :-P
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13:24:50 <tusho> hi Mony
13:25:00 <Mony> hi tusho
13:25:07 <tusho> optbot: say hi to mony
13:25:07 <optbot> tusho: sequence too large; must be smaller than 32
13:25:16 <tusho> optbot: um "mony" isn't more than 32 letters
13:25:16 <optbot> tusho: heh. sounds analagous to "vendor lockin"
13:25:25 <Mony> strange hi :p
13:25:30 <tusho> optbot: what's a person got to do with vendor lockin? oh, i didn't mean "money" i meant the person Mony in here
13:25:30 <optbot> tusho: ah well never mind
13:25:33 <tusho> ok :)
13:25:43 <Mony> ^^
13:27:55 <tusho> optbot!
13:27:55 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no.
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13:37:16 <deveah> can somebody recomend me a good Sinclair BASIC compiler (like compiling .tzx tapes) ?
13:38:42 <tusho> nope
13:38:42 <tusho> :D
13:38:51 <deveah> thanks
13:39:52 <deveah> I really need one :(
13:40:18 <Mony> google is your friend :D
13:40:46 <deveah> what should I google for so I don't get shit?
13:41:19 <tusho> deveah: sinclair basic compiler
13:41:39 <deveah> I alrady googled that and I get the same python compiler that doesn't compile shit
13:42:05 <tusho> maybe you're doin' it wrong with that compiler
13:42:21 <olsner> not many compilers do compile faeces
13:52:34 <AnMaster> indeed, however you can still pipe it to some other program
13:52:38 <AnMaster> </lame joke>
13:53:37 <olsner> coprophagia: piping shit on stdin
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14:18:01 <tusho> From reddit:
14:18:11 <tusho> headline: Linux Foundation Launches Killer Development Tool
14:18:19 <tusho> <vininim> Is it reiserfs?
14:18:27 <olsner> heh
14:18:44 <olsner> obvious pun is obvious
14:19:10 <olsner> "Is that the tool they used to build Hans Reiser?"
14:21:50 <tusho> heh
14:23:04 <tusho> optbot: joke about hans reiser
14:23:05 <optbot> tusho: That one is fun
14:23:14 <tusho> optbot: yeah real fun!
14:23:14 <optbot> tusho: no
14:23:19 <tusho> optbot: no? he's not?
14:23:19 <optbot> tusho: It was a joke to refer to your mention of illegal download
14:23:28 <tusho> optbot: ah, you are comparing illegal downloading to killing? Wow.
14:23:28 <optbot> tusho: ha ha
14:23:33 <tusho> optbot: oh, you were joking. hehehe :)
14:23:34 <optbot> tusho: ah
14:23:39 <olsner> maybe someone should build a @reiserpun plugin for lambdabot
14:23:40 <tusho> olsner: see, he can think
14:23:59 <tusho> also I concur but s/lambdabot/botte/
14:23:59 <tusho> :D
14:24:42 <olsner> "Reiserfs - the file system to die for!" but it's slightly base to be essentially joking about the death of Nina Reiser
14:25:20 <tusho> olsner: everybody dies, sometimes they're killed, reiser has had a trial and a judgement has been passed, joking about it isn't hurting anyone
14:26:31 <olsner> and then there's the two children who will bear the stigma of having their mother killed by their famous killer father...
14:27:24 <tusho> olsner: which they're going to have whether we joke about it or not
14:27:30 -!- deveah has left (?).
14:28:09 <olsner> "Hmm... should I install the file system written by the guy that killed mom, or that other one?"
14:28:36 <tusho> haha it's not like reiserfs is all _that_  good anyway :D
14:29:05 <tusho> optbot: reiserfs
14:29:05 <optbot> tusho: are you talking about variable assignment?
14:29:08 <tusho> optbot: no
14:29:08 <optbot> tusho: hash_t h = 0x7fd6_52ad ^ (8 * m)
14:29:15 <tusho> optbot: that is a variable declaration & assignment
14:29:15 <optbot> tusho: I understand
14:29:19 <tusho> optbot: ok so reiserfs
14:29:19 <optbot> tusho: Then why did you ask?
14:29:24 <tusho> optbot: because reiserfs
14:29:24 <optbot> tusho: got to finish this parser crap first :D
14:29:26 <tusho> optbot: ok
14:29:26 <optbot> tusho: now.. make an interpreter, i wanna code something!
14:29:29 <olsner> but I guess that's pretty trivial compared to having your only living parent be the one that killed the other one, a situation they're probably not alone about
14:29:32 <tusho> optbot: no :\
14:29:33 <optbot> tusho: (= cons {(-> [h t] {(-> [$pb :] [h t]) (-> $car h) (-> $cdr t) (-> [$setcar h] h) (-> [$setcdr t] t) (-> [$! 0] h) (-> [$! n] (! t (- n 1))) (-> $length (+ 1 (length t)))})})(= list (cons 5 (cons 4 (cons 3 (cons 2 (cons 1 (cons 0 nil)))))))(= qs {(-> (: h t) (+ (qs (flr {(< _ h)} t)) (+ [h] (qs (flr {(>= _ h)} t))))) []})(qs list)
14:29:38 <tusho> optbot: that's mine :D
14:29:39 <optbot> tusho: *sigh*
14:29:41 <tusho> :\
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15:02:27 <ais523> hi tusho
15:02:29 <ais523> optbot!
15:02:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | thanks.
15:02:40 <tusho> urgh
15:02:45 * tusho stabs his eyes out with a rake
15:02:48 <tusho> I am currently installing gobby
15:03:07 <tusho> and I have just entered the TWENTY FIRST CENTURY by installing a news aggregator
15:04:31 <ais523> ah, well done
15:05:05 <tusho> i am not really that excited. i am too far in to the habit of loading websites every now and then
15:05:17 <tusho> taking it in at my own pace, etc
15:05:39 <ais523> I find my aggregator helps me by preventing me uselessly repeatedly loading websites
15:05:48 <ais523> and you can always just ignore it for a while
15:06:20 <tusho> ais523: but, see, I like uselessly repeating loading of websites
15:06:26 <tusho> I think "oh, I wonder if X has something new" and check it
15:08:51 <tusho> Possibly I want a feed reader integrated with my browesr.
15:19:03 <tusho> ais523: gobby installin'
15:19:07 <tusho> oh dear
15:19:11 <tusho> gobby not installing
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15:23:30 <tusho> yay
15:23:32 <tusho> installin
15:30:59 <tusho> still installin
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16:24:52 <tusho> ais523: back
16:24:54 <tusho> and it's installed
16:25:11 <ais523> ah, good
16:25:42 <tusho> ais523: #feather-lang
16:26:02 <ais523> although I'm a bit busy at the moment, writing a script to do the Notary's weekly report
16:26:04 <ais523> but that shouldn't take long
16:26:09 <ais523> also I have to go by 7 because it's a Saturday
16:26:20 <tusho> OK
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17:33:49 <ais523> optbot: you alive?
17:33:50 <optbot> ais523: employer can only be constructed via another member of class employer, or by forcesOfTheFreeMarket().
17:38:27 <fizzie> Dumm, dumm, dumn. befunge.org expires in one hour.
17:38:35 <ais523> fizzie: who has it atm/
17:38:38 <ais523> s/\//?/
17:38:38 <fizzie> I.
17:38:54 <ais523> fizzie: were you planning to use it for anything?
17:39:01 <fizzie> But I haven't done anything with it during the 6 years I've had it, so I'm thinking about letting it expire.
17:39:10 <fizzie> I guess I must've had some plans at some point, but...
17:39:11 <ais523> yes, that makes sense really
17:39:32 <ais523> it's rare for individual esolangs to have their own domains, LOLCODE is the only one I can think of
17:39:32 <tusho> Someone should buy it as a gift to ESO. :-P
17:39:35 <ais523> normally they have subdomains instead
17:41:42 <fizzie> I did use it for an IRC vhost on this channel briefly in 2002-2003, but that's about it. Oh, and GregorR from this channel had a web page for FYB, but that's now at codu.org/eso/ apparently.
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17:52:38 * tusho sets feeds to refresh every hour
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18:13:27 <tusho> optbot: start a conversation
18:13:27 <optbot> tusho: I've had experience with bad project names, and this isn't one
18:13:30 <tusho> optbot: heh
18:13:31 <optbot> tusho: it DOES compile to brainfuck...
18:13:38 <tusho> optbot: call it tofuck?
18:13:38 <optbot> tusho: i mean s/foo/x/g;s/bar/y/g
18:13:41 <tusho> ah
18:13:50 <tusho> optbot: that will produce valid brainfuck but it won't do anything
18:13:51 <optbot> tusho: so ican do a kimian quine
18:13:59 <tusho> optbot: you'd have to have unmatched brackets for that
18:14:00 <optbot> tusho: heh
18:31:03 <AnMaster> is 3 less than a few?
18:31:16 <AnMaster> where is the limit for calling something "a few" in other words
18:31:56 <AnMaster> tusho, ^
18:32:05 <tusho> AnMaster: a few is indeterminate
18:32:11 <tusho> 3 is a few, 7 might be a few
18:33:05 <AnMaster> tusho, but 2 can't be "a few"?
18:34:44 <tusho> AnMaster: no
18:34:46 <tusho> 2 is a couple
18:35:27 * AnMaster ponders what -2 objects would be
18:35:41 <AnMaster> apart from nonsense
18:39:37 <AnMaster> a negative couple?
18:39:47 <AnMaster> (with reversed polarity! ;)
18:39:55 <tusho> AnMaster: a elpuoc
18:39:59 <tusho> *an
18:40:02 <AnMaster> hah good
18:40:08 <AnMaster> tusho, no
18:40:14 <AnMaster> na elpuoc
18:40:34 <AnMaster> it is virulent ;P
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18:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ldcumfpgwy / etaoinsrh / bvkxjqz.
18:58:17 <Mony> bye
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19:59:20 <AnMaster> tusho, there?
19:59:25 <tusho> yep
19:59:32 <AnMaster> tusho, I just have a mad idea
19:59:42 <AnMaster> want to hear?
19:59:44 <tusho> sure
19:59:45 <AnMaster> ColourFeather
19:59:47 <AnMaster> XD
19:59:51 <tusho> heh
19:59:54 <tusho> AnMaster: you could add that
20:00:00 <AnMaster> tusho, I got no clue how
20:00:06 <AnMaster> but I think ColorForth is mad
20:00:11 <AnMaster> hrrm
20:00:13 <AnMaster> ColorFunge?
20:00:16 <AnMaster> URK
20:00:16 <tusho> AnMaster: Just use feather to overwrite its eval with a modified interpreter
20:00:16 <tusho> :P
20:03:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how would ColorFunge work?
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20:12:10 <AnMaster> tusho, ais never posted those examples
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20:17:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: huh?
20:17:39 <Deewiant> hmm
20:17:42 <Deewiant> would it? :-P
20:18:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would what?
20:18:30 <AnMaster> ah
20:18:31 <AnMaster> oh
20:18:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, an interesting idea though
20:19:24 <Deewiant> on a related note, is the IP tracing interface done in the Funge-108 spec/cfunge?
20:19:31 <AnMaster> eh
20:19:33 <Deewiant> (came to mind from colors)
20:19:35 <AnMaster> that is not part of Funge-108
20:19:41 <AnMaster> it is a separate project
20:19:45 <AnMaster> that I never had time to finish
20:19:55 <Deewiant> ah, I misremembered it as an optional Funge-108 extension or something like that
20:20:06 <Deewiant> but yeah, I gather you haven't worked on it
20:20:16 <AnMaster> I did write the specs for it
20:20:22 <AnMaster> but I haven't coded anything on it for cfunge
20:20:32 <Deewiant> were they finalized or did we still have some issues, I can't remember
20:20:34 <AnMaster> nor do I know when I will have time to
20:20:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I can't either
20:20:54 <AnMaster> but probably quite complex to implement
20:21:02 <Deewiant> not necessarily
20:21:07 <AnMaster> but of course I could steal your implementation if you do it
20:21:09 <AnMaster> ;P
20:21:10 <Deewiant> :-P
20:21:15 <Deewiant> is the spec up somewhere
20:21:31 <AnMaster> probably in rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/tmp if it is anywhere
20:21:47 <AnMaster> ah yes frontend protocol
20:21:49 <AnMaster> that may be it
20:22:08 <Deewiant> "draft 1"
20:22:17 <Deewiant> probably the one with which there were issues :-P
20:22:18 <AnMaster> hm
20:22:31 <Deewiant> because I do remember skimming through a PDF and complaining
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20:22:39 <AnMaster> oh yes I remember that too
20:22:54 <AnMaster> but I think I corrected it and forgot to update title
20:23:03 <AnMaster> local version is the same you see
20:23:12 <AnMaster> at least on a quick glance
20:23:36 <Deewiant> or then it was never corrected ;-)
20:25:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I think it was
20:27:20 <Deewiant> well, I'll bookmark it and maybe complain more later :-)
20:42:58 <tusho> hi
20:49:13 <tusho> :)
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21:35:28 <tusho> :P
21:37:32 <AnMaster> tusho, if someone made ColorFunge, what file format should be used?
21:37:37 * tusho shrugs
21:37:42 <tusho> use ansi colour codes
21:37:48 <AnMaster> hah nice one
21:38:09 <tusho> why not
21:38:12 <tusho> there are already many editors
21:38:18 <AnMaster> indeed why not
21:38:37 <pikhq> Make it Emacs-friendly, and all is well in the world.
21:38:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, I got no idea if I will ever make it
21:39:15 <AnMaster> it is just a vague idea on the level "would this even work"
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22:05:29 <tusho> AnMaster: have
22:05:43 <AnMaster> ah
22:05:44 <AnMaster> night
22:07:34 <tusho> bye
22:07:36 <tusho> optbot!
22:07:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | since its the easiest.
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23:42:19 <Tritonio_> anybody here?
23:44:05 <tusho> no
23:45:11 <olsner> P-P-P-Paradox!
23:55:47 <Tritonio_> where do you write brainfuck?
23:55:58 <Tritonio_> any good debugger for linux?

2008-08-10:

00:02:00 <tusho> Tritonio_: wut
00:02:42 <Tritonio_> a brainfuck debugger for linux.
00:03:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
00:03:49 <olsner> write-only means no debugging :)
00:04:41 <psygnisfive> O_O
00:05:02 <tusho> Tritonio_: you don't
00:05:06 <tusho> just get it right
00:05:07 <tusho> :P
00:05:54 <olsner> some things really are easier to get right from the start than debug post-facto
00:06:27 <tusho> how to write a brainfuck program:
00:06:28 <tusho> 1. get idea
00:06:33 <tusho> 2. formalise basic idea of how it could work in head
00:06:40 <tusho> 3. figure out how you can organize it into a full program
00:06:42 <tusho> 4. do so
00:06:54 <tusho> 5. if the program made by steps 4 fails, go to 3 or maybe 2
00:07:17 <olsner> basically 1. read problem, 2. think really hard, 3. write down solution
00:07:39 <tusho> olsner: so brainfuck = haskell?
00:08:06 <olsner> the difference lies in the "write down solution" step
00:08:35 <olsner> in haskell you get three lines of beauty, in brainfuck you get a steaming heap of brainfuck
00:10:51 <olsner> besides, that's not really about haskell... I think it's a feynman quote
00:11:49 <Tritonio_> well i prefer the normal way... 1 think of the problem. 2 Write down something you think it works. 3 check it for stupid mistakes. 4. put it in a debbuger and fix the rest of the stupid mistakes...
00:12:02 <Tritonio_> I already use a nice debugger
00:12:07 <Tritonio_> but it's for windows.
00:12:35 <olsner> tusho: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman#Quotations_about_Feynman
00:12:52 <Tritonio_> and for some reason, when run through wine, it still has windows decorations thus it doesn't blend with compiz nicely...
00:12:52 <tusho> olsner: yes, my joke is still valid
00:12:52 <tusho> :D
00:13:06 <tusho> [00:11:51] <Tritonio_> well i prefer the normal way... 1 think of the problem. 2 Write down something you think it works. 3 check it for stupid mistakes. 4. put it in a debbuger and fix the rest of the stupid mistakes...
00:13:09 <tusho> awful way to write BF programs
00:13:10 <tusho> truly awful
00:13:20 <tusho> it'll produce inferior programs & algorithms and take a lot longer to develop
00:13:40 <Tritonio_> whatever it works for me...
00:13:59 <tusho> Tritonio_: don't you want to produce better BF programs?
00:14:04 <tusho> Besides, you can't do your current way on linux.
00:14:08 <tusho> Why not take the oppertunity to improve?
00:14:41 <Tritonio_> how would they be better? when I write the code usually it has only some spare or missing + or -
00:14:56 <Tritonio_> so a debugger helps...
00:15:53 <tusho> Tritonio_: because you think exactly how to write the program
00:15:55 <tusho> then write it out
00:15:57 <tusho> (with comments)
00:16:17 <tusho> Tritonio_: hopefully, you should have one comment per each runnable-in-your-head "unit" of code
00:16:26 <tusho> thus, if one of them has an extra/missing + or -, it'll be obvious
00:18:25 <Tritonio_> Well usually *I* miss some of the obvious mistakes... So I really need the debugger. If there is not one for linux I will make one.
00:19:32 <tusho> Tritonio_: i just explained how not to miss them
00:19:37 <Tritonio_> Normally I don't make huge mistakes, I just miss many small ones...
00:19:46 <tusho> when you write it out, you have one line being one unit of code (unit: a snippit you can run entirely in your head without problems)
00:19:47 <tusho> and comment what it's for
00:19:50 <tusho> then
00:19:52 <tusho> you review it
00:20:00 <tusho> and check that each unit does what its comment says it should
00:20:06 <tusho> and voila
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00:23:14 <fizzie> If your current Windows debugger is bfdebug.sf.net, it might work with very little tweaking under Linux with Lazarus.
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00:23:57 <fizzie> (And I've seen at least two Javascript interpreters with at least some debugging facilities, which of course will run anywhere.)
00:24:21 <tusho> fizzie: do you agree that my method is an easier way to produce bug-free BF though?
00:25:01 <fizzie> Well, I'm not completely convinced a debugger is completely useless. Still, your method is what I've used with the few BF programs I've written.
00:25:43 <Tritonio_> i am using. brainfuck developer fizzie. it's closed source freeware...
00:25:47 <fizzie> Even with all the comments, I think there has been at least one case of a non-obvious missing "<", though.
00:26:10 <Tritonio_> especially when you work with loops with unbalanced <>
00:26:29 <fizzie> Well, there's always Wine, if you're so inclined.
00:26:30 * tusho shrugs the key is making the chunks small enough
00:26:35 <tusho> say, a chunk over 10 characters is wrong
00:26:36 <tusho> full stop
00:27:13 <Tritonio_> that what I do now. I run it with Wine. but it doesn't come up with the rest of the windows when I use the Scale plugin of compiz or whatever it is called...
00:27:32 <fizzie> Yes, well, small chunks don't help all that much if your problem is that there's a "<" chunk missing from a multi-page [].
00:29:18 * tusho shrugs - i think they help fine because you see each one both in isolation and in the bigger picture
00:29:26 <tusho> and if the comments are sufficient you should know something's up
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00:40:34 <tusho> optbot: say hi to calamari
00:40:34 <optbot> tusho: is just added hassle.
00:40:37 <tusho> optbot: aww
00:40:37 <optbot> tusho: 78X41E2
00:40:39 <tusho> optbot!
00:40:40 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Hum ho-hum..
00:41:28 <calamari> hi
00:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | there are few viruses that can reproduce without destroying their host, though...
00:47:16 <tusho> calamari: (optbot is here to keep the topic fresh. he has a conversation mode because, well, because.)
00:47:16 <optbot> tusho: because ruby has to lookup the + method of Integer with every call because one can redefine the + method of Integer
01:38:19 <psygnisfive> whooo dvorak keyboard layout! :O
01:39:17 <tusho> psygnisfive: enjoy your 2 weeks of pain
01:43:16 <psygnisfive> if you could see my fetlife profile youd know im a masochist :P
01:45:22 <psygnisfive> but hey whats life without some adventure ey?
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02:33:28 <dogface> I declare that the date is... oh, October -200, 1993.
02:33:47 <dogface> Actually, let's be more conservative.
02:37:26 <dogface> Tentative date that school's out...
02:39:29 <dogface> ...is June 5. Add a week and we get June 12, 2009, so if we call that October 1, 1993, today is (/me waits for his computer to unfreeze)
02:39:46 <dogface> The date June 12, 2009 is completely arbitrary, by the way.
02:40:19 * dogface continues waiting
02:41:51 <dogface> So let's say this is October -300, 1993.
02:42:04 <dogface> And that was arbitrary. Have a nice day.
02:42:16 * dogface waits further
02:43:39 <psygnisfive> lol what
02:43:48 <dogface> It's October -300, 1993.
02:44:27 <dogface> Add a leap day 97 times every 146097 days.
02:44:43 <dogface> Including the leap days, that is.
02:45:04 * dogface does evil things
02:45:57 <dogface> Wait, doing evil things would actually be pretty boring.
02:46:13 <dogface> Hmm, unless I do it that way...
02:46:32 <dogface> Except there is no such way, which is unfortunate..
02:50:09 <dogface> Hmm. phi*sqrt(5) = 2+phi. This sounds like it could be exploited to yield a set of "Fibonacci numbers" that converge to sqrt(2).
02:53:49 <dogface> Cool, the generating matrix [[1,1][1,0]] has the eigenvalues phi and 1-phi. So what I want is a matrix of integers with eigenvalue sqrt(2).
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04:45:07 <dogface> I am doing Evil Tuffs. Go me.
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10:14:17 <Mony> hi !
10:34:54 <Mony> damn
10:35:00 <Mony> my idea....
10:35:01 <Mony> http://gbatemp.net/index.php?s=fa19c87f3dac3a0ff746e073da8daa1b&showtopic=99804
10:35:06 <Mony> BrainFuckDS
10:36:31 <fizzie> Well, choose another language. But don't do Befunge, otherwise I won't have anything to do.
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10:39:43 <Mony> malbolge ? xD
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10:45:19 <fizzie> It's certainly easier to implement than to program in.
10:48:01 <Mony> sure
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11:30:36 <Mony> hi tusho
11:30:43 <tusho> hi Mony
11:30:45 <tusho> hi optbot
11:30:46 <optbot> tusho: http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/%E0%B2%A0_%E0%B2%A0
11:31:26 <Mony> LOL
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11:37:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: took a look now and it seems that you indeed haven't changed frontend-protocol based on my comments back on 2008-03-29
11:37:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what were those comments
11:37:26 <AnMaster> I don't remember
11:37:27 <Deewiant> lot of stuff
11:37:29 <oklopol> is ds the one with a touchscreen?
11:37:30 <Deewiant> do you keep IRC logs
11:37:34 <Deewiant> oklopol: yep
11:38:01 <oklopol> . and , should be plotting and reading pixels then
11:38:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but how long ago?
11:38:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hmm, it seems that you had a second draft but it's not published
11:38:06 <Deewiant> 2008-03-31 17:33:12 * AnMaster looks for the first (now outdated) draft
11:38:06 <Deewiant> 2008-03-31 17:33:16( AnMaster) the second isn't yet redy
11:38:09 <oklopol> would be much more fun
11:38:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I archive old on cds
11:38:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 2008-03-29, like I said
11:38:18 <AnMaster> blergh
11:38:22 <Deewiant> so what is that, 4.5 months
11:38:24 * AnMaster goes looking for said CD
11:38:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but if you've got that second draft somewhere it might have the stuff in it
11:38:50 <tusho> AnMaster: dude
11:38:52 <tusho> use the tunes.org logs
11:38:57 <tusho> they're in the bloody topic
11:39:04 <tusho> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.03.29
11:39:06 <Deewiant> that might be easier, yes ;-)
11:39:24 <tusho> Deewiant: maybe he's afraid they've been tampered with
11:39:28 <tusho> how can he trust them?!
11:39:30 <Deewiant> maybe they have!!
11:39:36 <Deewiant> optbot: what do you think
11:39:36 <optbot> Deewiant: I could say "the process providing the 'fs' service" or "the process that's an instance of /foo/bar" or "the process that's using all the CPU time".
11:39:49 <tusho> Deewiant: he's saying what the editor might make him say
11:39:51 <Deewiant> I think he's been tampered with too
11:39:51 <tusho> in the edited version
11:40:00 <Deewiant> :-)
11:40:13 <fizzie> oklopol; One could also do the "bfvga" thing and map the brainfuck memory array to the 256x192-pixel non-touchscreen display.
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11:40:55 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> 2008-03-31 17:33:16( AnMaster) the second isn't yet redy <-- not in said log file that tusho posted
11:41:08 <tusho> '32'
11:41:09 <tusho> er
11:41:10 <tusho> '31'
11:41:11 <tusho> '29'
11:41:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you do realize that the thing at the beginning of the line is a date/timestamp
11:41:17 <tusho> ur gud @ reading comprehension
11:41:32 <tusho> here let me babysit you. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.03.31
11:41:37 <Deewiant> and like tusho said, 29 and 31 aren't the same day. ;-)
11:41:38 <AnMaster> ah in 31
11:41:46 <AnMaster> indeed
11:42:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm still kind of sleepy, yes I know it isn't morning any more but that still doesn't help :P
11:42:26 <Deewiant> >_<
11:42:34 <tusho> AnMaster
11:42:40 <tusho> why are you writing a language spec
11:42:45 <AnMaster> tusho, eh?
11:42:46 <tusho> if you can't make out the difference between "29" and "31"
11:42:50 <AnMaster> tusho, very fun
11:42:59 <tusho> i wasn't being funny
11:43:03 <tusho> generally a clear mind would be reccomended...
11:43:07 <Deewiant> tusho: I gather he's not writing it right now
11:43:17 <tusho> Deewiant: but he's trying to look up stuff for it
11:43:41 <Deewiant> well, it's one way to clear one's mind :-P
11:44:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh the lyx file is more uptodate it seems
11:45:00 <Deewiant> I would guess so
11:45:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't see your comments on what the issues where in that log
11:45:26 <Deewiant> if it hasn't changed since 2008-03-31 I guess it's still a work in progress
11:45:26 <AnMaster> what line to search for
11:45:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it has, the local one differs in page count at least
11:45:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: starting around 07:04:51
11:46:10 <AnMaster> what timezone are the tunes.org logs in?
11:47:10 <tusho> who cares
11:47:11 <tusho> est
11:47:12 <tusho> i guess
11:47:21 <tusho> AnMaster: just search for deewiant
11:47:23 <tusho> or funge
11:47:32 <AnMaster> tusho, there are lots of other funge stuff there too
11:47:41 <AnMaster> it seems I were implementing FPSP at that time
11:47:46 <Deewiant> tusho: EST can refer to 5 different time zones...
11:47:55 <tusho> Deewiant: yes. one of them
11:47:55 <tusho> :)
11:47:56 <Deewiant> but I guess you meant the american one?
11:48:00 <tusho> no
11:48:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you give me some comment to search for please
11:48:10 <AnMaster> I'm unable to find it
11:48:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 07:04:51
11:48:13 <tusho> i meant the EST
11:48:16 <tusho> of cambodia
11:48:16 <tusho> duh
11:48:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is nothing around then in the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.03.31, at that time I haven't even posted the link to that draft
11:48:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: on 29
11:48:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 31 is just you saying that there exists a second draft
11:49:01 <AnMaster> ah
11:49:17 <Deewiant> 29 is when you posted the first
11:52:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it seems the local one is more uptodate
11:53:04 <AnMaster> I will scp it
11:53:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, uploaded
11:54:43 -!- jix has joined.
11:55:25 <tusho> AnMaster
11:55:28 <tusho> if I have FNG1
11:55:31 <tusho> and FNG2
11:55:36 <tusho> and I want to use the "M" from each one in a bit of code
11:55:37 <tusho> what do i do
11:56:06 <AnMaster> tusho, you could use FING to remap one of the M to something else, that you don't need
11:56:09 <Deewiant> tusho: you use the FING or FNGR or IMAP fingerprints
11:56:12 <AnMaster> I plan to implement FING
11:56:16 <AnMaster> or yes IMAP
11:56:22 <tusho> Deewiant: what if I need A-Z for both?
11:56:24 <AnMaster> tusho, or you could just load and unload them
11:56:31 <tusho> just do "2GNF"(M) each time I want it?
11:56:33 <AnMaster> tusho, then you need to switch between them a lot
11:56:36 <Deewiant> tusho: IMAP
11:56:38 <tusho> can't you do
11:56:48 <tusho> "1GNF"(M"2GNF"(M)M)
11:56:58 <oklopol> fingerprints should be implemented as befunge modules
11:57:02 <AnMaster> tusho, depends on what M does to the stack
11:57:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, what do you mean?
11:57:12 <Deewiant> oklopol: they can be, it's called mini-funge or fungelib
11:57:19 <Deewiant> but I'm off to eat now ->
11:57:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or dynafing
11:57:25 <AnMaster> that is another name for it
11:57:47 <tusho> there should be a FGPT fingerprint
11:57:55 <tusho> that lets you make a fingerprint without any special formats even with befunge code
11:58:01 <tusho> like
11:58:07 <tusho> N ( name -- ) set the name of the new one
11:58:19 <tusho> C ( 0"gnirts" name -- ) add command
11:58:21 <AnMaster> err?
11:58:22 <tusho> S ( -- ) save fingerprint
11:58:30 <AnMaster> tusho, sounds like MACR
11:58:33 <tusho> AnMaster: lets you make a fingerprint in befunge code
11:58:35 <tusho> so that you can do
11:58:41 <AnMaster> tusho, sounds like MACR kind of
11:58:44 <tusho> "FGPT"(...)"LOOC"(...)
11:58:52 <tusho> where you used the FGPT bit to define COOL
11:58:56 <tusho> err
11:58:58 <tusho> 0"FGPT"
11:58:59 <tusho> whatever
11:59:22 <AnMaster> "TPGF"4(
11:59:27 <AnMaster> anyway: dynafing/mini-funge/fungelib doesn't always work...
11:59:36 <AnMaster> you couldn't implement FILE using that
11:59:38 <AnMaster> or TRDS
12:00:28 <tusho> well of course
12:00:38 <tusho> AnMaster: but the thing is, all of those don't let you run them from in befunge code
12:00:46 <tusho> this would just be a regular fingerprint that lets you make a new fingerprint
12:00:56 <AnMaster> indeed
12:01:12 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway this sounds almost like MACR
12:01:28 <AnMaster> you may want to take a look at the new MACR in RC/Funge
12:01:37 <AnMaster> not exactly the same
12:01:43 <AnMaster> but probably useful for you anyway
12:02:06 <oklopol> how many fingerprints are there?
12:02:13 <oklopol> if it's more than 20, i'll make one more
12:02:17 <tusho> oklopol: like 10-20
12:02:29 <tusho> oklopol: they're implementation specific though
12:02:33 <AnMaster> tusho, quite a few
12:02:35 <tusho> oh you mean just spec it
12:02:41 <AnMaster> but no implementation have them all
12:02:43 <tusho> and let AnMaster and Deewiant and MikeRiley implement it?
12:02:44 <tusho> :P
12:03:06 <oklopol> tusho: yes just spec it, or alternatively use a fingerprint-generating fingerprint to make it in befunge
12:03:33 <tusho> oklopol: it's more fun just to spec it
12:03:36 <tusho> and make it a little vague
12:03:38 <AnMaster> tusho, for example only ais' addition to cfunge got IFFI
12:03:46 <tusho> then you get to watch AnMaster, Deewiant and MikeRiley argue aebout it
12:03:51 <tusho> *about
12:03:53 <oklopol> tusho: not necessarily, i love coding in befunge
12:03:57 <oklopol> it's orgastic
12:03:59 <tusho> and maybe get it in to mycology, if Deewiant isn't lazy
12:04:00 <AnMaster> tusho, well since oklopol made it we will argue with him
12:04:09 <tusho> oklopol: solution - spec the fingerprint, then write programs using it
12:04:17 <oklopol> hehe
12:04:22 <AnMaster> anyway I may or may not implement it
12:04:24 <oklopol> tusho: okay that's better
12:04:37 <tusho> oklopol: make sure to use it to write something amazing
12:04:40 <AnMaster> depending on how feral it is
12:04:42 <tusho> so that they just have to implement it
12:04:43 <oklopol> and i can have all kinds of interesting side-effects then.
12:05:02 <AnMaster> tusho, if he wrote a good and *fast* ray tracer in Befunge....
12:05:10 <AnMaster> that would be about the only thing ;P
12:05:23 <oklopol> for instance, i doubt s/.../.../ for the code would be possible if you wrote it in befunge
12:05:32 <AnMaster> oklopol, eh?
12:05:41 <AnMaster> replace any 3 chars with 3 dots?
12:05:51 <oklopol> replace something in code with something else
12:05:58 <oklopol> for all instances of something
12:06:00 <AnMaster> oklopol, see REXP for regex, but I don't think it does replacement yet
12:06:05 <tusho> AnMaster: no, in the program
12:06:09 <tusho> he wants to be able to run a regexp on the program
12:06:10 <tusho> from inside the program
12:06:14 <AnMaster> oh you mean search and replace on funge space
12:06:21 <oklopol> yes, that i meant
12:06:29 <AnMaster> could be done in dynafing
12:06:35 <AnMaster> but would be quite complex I think
12:06:36 <oklopol> as something that would be easy to spec, but hard to write as a befunge module.
12:07:02 <tusho> AnMaster: no, no, he wants you to implement it see ;)
12:07:03 <AnMaster> oklopol, it *could* be done in dynafing/mini-funge
12:07:08 <tusho> could be
12:07:09 <tusho> but hard
12:07:18 <AnMaster> tusho, cfunge doesn't do dynafing or such yet
12:07:24 <AnMaster> if it ever will
12:07:34 <oklopol> AnMaster: probably possible, although i don't know how you'd do it
12:07:40 <oklopol> can you get me started?
12:07:45 <oklopol> i meann
12:08:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, well.... dynafing is appendix C in http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/funge108.pdf
12:08:13 <oklopol> actually i think i know
12:08:21 <AnMaster> select funge-98 one I guess
12:08:25 <tusho> oklopol: don't use dynafing
12:08:28 <tusho> it's just AnMaster's toy invention
12:08:33 <tusho> RC-Funge has something similar that is actually implemented
12:08:34 <AnMaster> tusho, it isn't
12:08:38 <AnMaster> it is from !Befunge
12:08:39 <AnMaster> tusho, ^
12:08:47 <tusho> AnMaster: fine, well, !Befunge is kind of useless
12:08:59 <AnMaster> tusho, it is more powerful than mini-funge
12:08:59 <tusho> 1. broken 2. you basically can't run it on modern systems
12:09:07 <tusho> AnMaster: and more powerful == less fun to do stuff in
12:09:31 <AnMaster> *shrug*
12:09:37 <oklopol> of course it would be trivial if it, for instance, kinda temporarily pastes the whole fingerprint source where the instruction was, and you'd have G and P for accessing the fingerprint code, and g and p for the original code
12:09:44 <oklopol> and X for exiting the fingerprint
12:09:48 <AnMaster> mini-funge is almost a subset of dynafing anyway
12:09:56 <oklopol> *pasted
12:10:09 <AnMaster> the different is G/P and g/p have interchanged meanings
12:10:24 <AnMaster> Feature                       Dynafing 1.3 RC/Funge’s mini-funge
12:10:24 <AnMaster> Instruction to get and set in G and P     g and p
12:10:24 <AnMaster> haunted Funge-Space.
12:10:24 <AnMaster> Instruction to get and set in g and p     G and P
12:10:34 <oklopol> i'm actually not sure how it'd work to call shit in the fingerprint itself.
12:10:35 <AnMaster> ghost Funge-Space.
12:10:49 <oklopol> but anyway it's either trivial or impossible, i think.
12:11:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, write the specs first
12:11:08 <oklopol> but anyway, there will always be stuff you can't write as a befunge module
12:11:12 <AnMaster> then I'll see what I think of it
12:11:15 <oklopol> AnMaster: i'm not going to make s///
12:11:23 <AnMaster> oklopol, indeed there will be stuff
12:11:28 <AnMaster> TRDS, FILE, DIRF
12:11:30 <oklopol> "there will always be stuff you can't write as a befunge module" is my point
12:11:30 <AnMaster> to name a few
12:11:39 <oklopol> trds?
12:11:41 <oklopol> dirf?
12:11:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, TRDS: time travel in funge space for IPs
12:12:02 <oklopol> ah, that one
12:12:03 <AnMaster> DIRF: mkdir/chdir/rmdir
12:12:06 <oklopol> okay
12:12:08 <oklopol> shop ->
12:12:10 <AnMaster> FILE: File streams
12:12:33 <AnMaster> also: dirf != DIRF
12:13:08 <AnMaster> maybe I should make two fingerprints that only differ in case
12:13:19 <AnMaster> would be fun to see what Deewiant would say ;P
12:13:36 <AnMaster> "ARGH CAN'T MAKE THE SOURCE CODE FILES AS WINDOWS IS CASE INSENSITIVE!"
12:13:41 <AnMaster> or something like that hehe
12:15:30 <Deewiant> or maybe it'll be so full of posix-only features that I can't implement it anyway ;-P
12:15:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hehehe
12:16:06 <tusho> he'd just call it dirf_lower
12:16:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, could ccbi handle weirdly named fingerprints?
12:16:13 <AnMaster> say, non-printable ones
12:16:32 <tusho> Deewiant: probably
12:16:35 <tusho> he'd just not name the file that
12:16:46 <AnMaster> well not sure
12:17:08 <AnMaster> cfunge's fingerprint.h generation scripts would need some changes in order to support it
12:17:58 <Deewiant> CCBI requires no changes for such
12:18:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, could CCBI handle a fingerprint 0?
12:18:19 <Deewiant> yes
12:18:28 <AnMaster> interesting
12:18:33 <AnMaster> cfunge couldn't currently
12:18:36 <Deewiant> I debated about making a fingerprint 0 just for Mycology
12:18:37 <AnMaster> that could be changed however
12:18:40 <Deewiant> but decided not to
12:18:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well cfunge will never try to load 0
12:18:57 <AnMaster> it just use it as a end of list marker
12:18:59 <Deewiant> yes, and hence cfunge doesn't conform to the spec.
12:19:05 <Deewiant> same with RC/Funge-98.
12:19:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it does
12:19:08 <Deewiant> and possibly others.
12:19:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it just don't implement 0
12:19:16 <AnMaster> :P
12:19:26 <Deewiant> >_<
12:19:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, loading AAAA will reflect as well as loading 0
12:19:45 <AnMaster> so it totally conforms to the specs
12:20:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I can't see how you end up with "doesn't conform" here
12:20:25 <Deewiant> maybe I should make 0 a combination of useful stuff from various fingerprints
12:20:45 <Deewiant> just so that you can start a befunge program with ( and have A-Z map to handy things
12:20:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then it would be a 3 line change to use sizeof and some stuff to get the size of the array instead
12:21:09 <Deewiant> so why don't you change it :-)
12:21:14 <AnMaster> + a few lines of change to generation of fingerprint.h script
12:21:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because it works, and because I don't need it yet
12:21:42 <AnMaster> as I said, I could change it easily enough if I needed to
12:22:14 <Deewiant> hmm, filenames can't contain a null byte can they
12:22:31 <AnMaster> indeed that would be another change, in that case to the generation scripts
12:22:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could call the file null.d?
12:22:41 <AnMaster> ;P
12:22:54 <Deewiant> that wasn't my point
12:23:04 <Deewiant> I was thinking of mini-funge
12:23:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, even / is valid in filenames I think
12:23:18 <Deewiant> I don't think
12:23:29 <Deewiant> I think NUL and / are the only two disallowed in *nix
12:23:35 <AnMaster> ah yes
12:23:36 <Deewiant> in windows, some others as wel
12:23:37 <AnMaster> maybe / too
12:23:37 <Deewiant> +l
12:23:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well "who cares about windows" *ducks*
12:23:55 <Deewiant> anyhoo
12:24:12 <Deewiant> this means that mini-funge can't load fingerprints that contain NUL
12:24:19 <Deewiant> or start with /
12:24:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well the Funge-108 variant of mini-funge could
12:24:27 <Deewiant> or end with /, I guess
12:24:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, file name doesn't matter there
12:24:55 <AnMaster> Syntax       Description              Example
12:24:56 <AnMaster> ==U:<URI>    URI                      ==U:http://example.com/test
12:24:56 <AnMaster> ==F:<string> Legacy fingerprint string =F:TEST
12:25:01 <AnMaster> in the first few lines
12:25:07 <AnMaster> to define fingerprint names
12:25:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, see how useful that is? :)
12:25:52 <tusho> AnMaster: for legacy names
12:25:59 <AnMaster> tusho, yes?
12:26:03 <Deewiant> yeah, if we ever make more than 2^32 fingerprints
12:26:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no I mean that way to declare the names
12:26:15 <tusho> AnMaster: funge-fingerprint-legacy://TRDS
12:26:17 <tusho> or whatever
12:26:20 <tusho> just use an unregistered URI secheme
12:26:23 <tusho> technically they're not valid URIs
12:26:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, allows all those chars you mentioned
12:26:28 <tusho> but in practice it'd be a lot easier
12:26:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yeah, exactly, useful if we ever run out of fingerprint names
12:26:32 <tusho> (than supporting both)
12:26:32 <AnMaster> tusho, interesting
12:26:59 <AnMaster> tusho, it is rather easy anyway: "if loading it as uri fails, fall back to old loading scheme"
12:27:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or to define 0
12:27:14 <AnMaster> as you want
12:27:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and to avoid name collisions
12:27:22 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, but for defining it
12:28:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 0 can be defined anyway, just not doable in minifunge :-)
12:28:28 <tusho> Deewiant: here's how you should define 0 for mycology
12:28:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, now it could be done in mini-funge
12:28:37 <tusho> A-Z are all different parts of the test
12:28:44 <tusho> and when you wanna test 0 in mycology
12:28:45 <tusho> you do
12:28:51 <AnMaster> tusho, you still don't have to implement 0
12:28:53 <tusho> 10(ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ)
12:29:03 <AnMaster> 10?
12:29:09 <tusho> AnMaster: 10 = 1"\0"
12:29:14 <AnMaster> err
12:29:15 <tusho> er
12:29:15 <tusho> 01
12:29:20 <AnMaster> indeed
12:29:27 <AnMaster> tusho, I was confused there :P
12:29:47 <Deewiant> you don't even need 01, just 0
12:29:48 <AnMaster> actually do you test that Deewiant, loading 0(
12:29:51 <AnMaster> to see that it works
12:30:04 <AnMaster> in other words: reflect
12:30:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think that's what I use to test ( and )
12:30:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm true
12:30:21 <AnMaster> ah ok
12:30:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well those tests would need to be rewritten if someone implements 0
12:30:48 <tusho> AnMaster: you know what you must now do ;)
12:30:53 <tusho> find a bug in mycology! go implement 0
12:30:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, because there is no resereved unimplemented fingerprint
12:31:01 <AnMaster> haha very funny
12:31:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wait you could make one, define it as *never implemented*
12:31:19 <AnMaster> XD
12:31:23 <tusho> AnMaster: make it print out "AnMaster 0wned Mycology!!! greetz to mikeriley"
12:31:26 <tusho> and exit the program
12:31:36 <AnMaster> tusho, very fun :P
12:31:47 <tusho> AnMaster: itym "very funny"
12:31:57 <AnMaster> itym?
12:32:07 <tusho> i think you mean
12:32:13 <AnMaster> ah yes
12:32:24 <AnMaster> in a sarcastic way
12:32:43 <fizzie> Mostly used in the construction "ITYM 'foo' HTH HAND".
12:33:00 <AnMaster> HTH?
12:33:06 <fizzie> Happy to help, have a nice day.
12:33:18 <AnMaster> I see...
12:33:33 <tusho> fizzie: not to me
12:33:37 <tusho> I use it sincerely
12:33:40 <tusho> and most people I know do
12:34:02 <tusho> i was pointing out that anmaster probably meant "very funny"
12:34:07 <tusho> sarcastically
12:35:48 <AnMaster> hm maybe define UDEF as "this fingerprint is never implemented"
12:36:18 <AnMaster> then require implementations to support UDEF for mycology to be able to finish testing
12:36:25 <Deewiant> "N/A" - "this fingerprint is not available"
12:36:42 <AnMaster> another good one
12:36:44 <tusho> beh:
12:36:46 <tusho> {Kim Cameron, Microsoft’s chief architect of identity, is an enthusiastic advocate of information cards, which are not only vastly more secure than a password-based security system, but are also customizable, permitting users to limit what information is released to particular sites. “I don’t like Single Sign-On,” Mr. Cameron said. “I don’t believe in Single Sign-On.” }
12:36:48 <Deewiant> supporting it means to not support it, so it's not exactly a requirement :-P
12:36:54 <tusho> (from a stupid new york times article about openid via reddit)
12:36:56 <tusho> idiot idiot idiot
12:37:03 <tusho> you can limit what sites can get info from your openid too!
12:37:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, heheh
12:39:28 <AnMaster> hm writing a funge interpreter in a purely functional language would be hard I think
12:39:37 <Deewiant> not really
12:39:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fingerprints need to modify global state
12:39:50 <tusho> no
12:39:53 <Deewiant> depends on the language itself, of course :-P
12:39:58 <AnMaster> and you don't have one
12:40:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, think erlang
12:40:20 <Deewiant> erlang isn't purely functional, is it?
12:40:26 <AnMaster> I guess haskell too, but I don't know haskell at all, I do know some erlang
12:40:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, almost purely functional I think
12:40:40 <AnMaster> I'm learning erlang
12:40:57 <AnMaster> for example you can only "bind" a variable once
12:41:07 <AnMaster> which makes it hard to do a global state
12:41:14 <Deewiant> in any case, you can just pass around whatever it is you want to "modify"
12:41:15 <AnMaster> as you can't modify it
12:41:21 <AnMaster> hm true
12:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | !1 2%%3 4...
12:41:32 <Deewiant> in haskell, this is made somewhat easier by things like the State monad
12:41:52 <Deewiant> in erlang, I'd imagine it's easier for some other reason because it's not pure ;-)
12:45:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't "get" monads
12:45:39 <Deewiant> it's easier to "get" individual monads, like Maybe and State
12:45:50 <Deewiant> and then later "get" what they have in common
12:45:54 <Deewiant> IMO anywaj
12:45:56 <Deewiant> s/j/y/
12:46:09 <AnMaster> well I'm learning erlang currently
12:52:54 <tusho> AnMaster nobody gets monads
12:52:56 <tusho> apart from like 5 people
12:52:57 <tusho> :)
12:53:02 <tusho> (i am one of them)
12:53:17 <Deewiant> :-P
12:55:11 <oklopol> monads mean that you like have IO but it's not like side-effect!
12:55:33 <tusho> oklopol: not really
12:55:33 <tusho> :P
12:55:48 <oklopol> what was that sarcasm-tag again?
12:55:54 <tusho> oklopol: you missed mine, I see
12:56:01 <tusho> anyway I am an expert on NOMADS
12:56:08 <tusho> if anyone has any questions about NOMADS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can answer them
12:56:11 <tusho> in audial form
12:56:24 <oklopol> tusho: i did miss it, where is it?
12:56:33 <tusho> oklopol: after 'not really'
12:56:44 <oklopol> ...:P?
12:56:58 <oklopol> or have i been nnscripted..?
12:57:12 <Deewiant> oklopol: it was ~
12:57:15 <oklopol> right.
12:57:15 <AnMaster> hahah
12:57:28 <AnMaster> tusho, so what are NOMADS?
12:57:55 <tusho> AnMaster: they are NOMADS
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12:57:58 <tusho> they have the following operations
12:58:08 <oklopol> NOMAAAAAAAAAADS
12:58:13 <tusho> RTEURN :: M A -> A
12:58:19 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
12:58:23 <tusho> BIDN :: A -> (M A -> B) -> B
12:58:26 <AnMaster> tusho, are they in any way related to monads?
12:58:29 <tusho> FIAL :: M STRING -> A
12:58:32 <tusho> they are NOMAAAAAAAAAAADS
12:58:37 <tusho> *clap clap clap*
12:58:44 <AnMaster> return, bind, fail?
12:58:48 <AnMaster> but typoed?
12:58:55 <oklopol> AnMaster: no those are for monads
12:59:03 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh? I don't get monads
12:59:08 <AnMaster> I don't even know haskell
12:59:44 <tusho> AnMaster: they are NOMADSSSSSSS
12:59:48 <tusho> which are not
12:59:49 <tusho> MONADSSSSSSSSS
13:00:06 <oklopol> basically a monad is kind of a container with a few operations for sequencing computation, and optionally additional operations for tinkering with its state.
13:00:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, I see, so how do you manage to do write/read/seek on a file stream in haskell?
13:00:58 <oklopol> AnMaster: IO is not necessarily the best way to get into monads as a concept
13:01:11 <AnMaster> right
13:01:15 <oklopol> but, err
13:01:17 <tusho> AnMaster: i think you'd have to grasp functional programming more to get it
13:01:23 <tusho> it's not easy to explain to a c programmer.
13:01:29 <oklopol> the state there would be the world's state
13:01:37 <AnMaster> tusho, I do know some erlang now, and also some elisp
13:01:41 <tusho> AnMaster: still. :)
13:01:45 <oklopol> you have a few operations for playing with the state, like reading files and writing to the printer
13:01:48 <AnMaster> tusho, indeed I think in C
13:01:52 <tusho> yes
13:01:56 <tusho> oklopol: i think we should wait a bit
13:02:05 <tusho> it'll be easier once he's learned erlang
13:02:12 <AnMaster> if I'd write a erlang program I would write it in C in my head, then convert to erlang
13:02:13 <tusho> and how to do state in that
13:02:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that's probably not a good idea
13:02:24 <oklopol> well he definitely shouldn't do like me and not touch haskell at all and just read tutorials on monads :D
13:02:24 <tusho> AnMaster: yeah ... don't write any erlang programs ;)
13:02:30 <Deewiant> I expect the code would be quite unidiomatic
13:02:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed not
13:02:36 <tusho> Deewiant: 'quite'?
13:02:37 <AnMaster> but I'm still learning erlang :P
13:02:41 <tusho> AnMaster would be a human compiler
13:02:42 <tusho> :P
13:02:47 <tusho> one that makes everything slower to boot
13:02:55 <Deewiant> tusho: well, I don't know Erlang so I don't know what idiomatic Erlang should look like :-)
13:03:14 <AnMaster> tusho, I'm still learning it
13:03:23 <tusho> yes
13:03:28 <AnMaster> when I began with C I was thinking in bash, when I began with bash I was thinking in pascal
13:03:40 <AnMaster> the first few weeks the code doesn't look good at all of course
13:03:47 <Deewiant> so actually you've been thinking in the same language all the time, you just changed the syntax ;-)
13:04:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you *learn* to "think" in the language
13:04:04 <tusho> Deewiant is pretty much right
13:04:13 <tusho> AnMaster: i'm afraid bash, C and pascal are basically the same
13:04:18 <AnMaster> tusho, yep
13:04:20 <tusho> single paradigm, not that many differences
13:04:22 <AnMaster> apple script too
13:04:25 <AnMaster> before pascal
13:04:26 <AnMaster> :P
13:04:27 <tusho> so you really only know one language :P
13:04:36 <AnMaster> tusho, object pascal
13:04:40 -!- RedDak has joined.
13:04:41 <tusho> heh, funny to think that AnMaster would use a propietary language on a propietary system
13:04:41 <tusho> :)
13:04:42 <AnMaster> I do know object orientation
13:04:50 <AnMaster> tusho, I used Mac OS 7 ages ago
13:04:52 <Deewiant> have you tried smalltalk
13:04:52 <AnMaster> that is why
13:04:59 <Deewiant> or Io
13:05:05 <tusho> Deewiant: i can answer that
13:05:05 <tusho> no
13:05:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no, but I have read about it, it smalltalk looks very interesting
13:05:06 <tusho> :P
13:05:11 <Deewiant> tusho: :-)
13:05:15 <AnMaster> but I can only do one thing at a time
13:05:35 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway I also coded C#, so yes I can think in object orientation as well
13:05:46 <tusho> C# and object pascal aren't real oo AnMaster :)
13:05:54 <AnMaster> tusho, oh?
13:05:57 <tusho> they break several core principles
13:05:59 <Deewiant> they're mostly imperative with OO on the top
13:06:04 <AnMaster> yeah true
13:06:09 <AnMaster> but so is C++ then
13:06:10 <tusho> smalltalk's object model obeys it because it invented it :P
13:06:12 <tusho> yes
13:06:15 <tusho> C++ is ... no way OOP
13:06:19 <Deewiant> yes, C++ and Java included
13:06:23 <AnMaster> objc then?
13:06:24 <AnMaster> what about it?
13:06:30 <Deewiant> haven't used it
13:06:32 <tusho> obj-c is very close to real OO
13:06:36 <tusho> because it's basically C with smalltalk on top
13:06:49 <tusho> it has some funky @ and - syntax for declaring classes
13:06:55 <tusho> but the actual message sends?
13:07:06 <tusho> [obj someMsg:YES withX:[obj2 test:NO]]
13:07:08 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway I also know befunge which is a different programming model yet
13:07:16 <AnMaster> and I think in befunge when coding it
13:07:18 <tusho> befunge is still imperative though
13:07:18 <tusho> :P
13:07:19 <AnMaster> I don't think in C
13:07:19 <Deewiant> no, Befunge is also imperative :-P
13:07:21 <AnMaster> it would not work
13:07:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is true
13:07:30 <AnMaster> but it is not like C at all still :P
13:07:31 <Deewiant> and you don't even write self-modifying code
13:07:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I do
13:08:08 <AnMaster> " :rebmun a retnE" >:#,_v
13:08:08 <AnMaster>   v_v#!`g00:+1<np00&    <
13:08:08 <AnMaster> .:< >a,@      ^
13:08:13 <AnMaster> not much self modifying
13:08:18 <AnMaster> just as variable storage
13:08:29 <Deewiant> so... not at all self modifying :-P
13:08:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, true, but most time you don't need it
13:08:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how would you write that code using self modification in some constructive way?
13:09:18 <AnMaster> wait I can see one way, write the value to a cell then put a ' in front
13:09:27 <Deewiant> for instance
13:10:11 <Deewiant> but yeah, I was just saying that Befunge is really imperative, if your code is very self-modifying then it might be considered as somewhat of a a different mindset but probably not :-)
13:11:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway erlang is a totally different mindset
13:11:40 <AnMaster> and look at my def-c low level compiler, it is not classic C
13:11:44 <Deewiant> quite, if you use it correctly ;-)
13:12:03 <AnMaster> def-c, the def-bf compiler that is
13:12:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it uses recursion a lot
13:12:29 <AnMaster> not functional, but not classical C etierh
13:12:30 <AnMaster> either*
13:12:43 <Deewiant> recursion in itself doesn't mean it's not somehow normal C :-)
13:13:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, recursion isn't very common in C programs
13:13:16 <Deewiant> yeah, because C programmers generally can't think recursively
13:13:23 <AnMaster> I bet 99% of the functions in a normal C program aren't recursive
13:13:27 <Deewiant> so they mash something into a really complicated loop when recursion would serve them better
13:13:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but my Brainfuck parser and optimizer are both recursive
13:13:56 <AnMaster> new level at every [
13:14:00 <AnMaster> and up at every ]
13:14:06 <Deewiant> which is because it makes more sense to do so than to loop :-P
13:14:13 <Deewiant> not because you're writing in a non-C style
13:14:18 <AnMaster> indeed
13:14:25 <Deewiant> if you wanted to loop, you'd have to manage your own stack
13:14:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, my BASE.c binary() is recursive
13:14:33 <AnMaster> bbl food
13:14:35 <Deewiant> so it'd be just like recursion anyway
13:21:05 <AnMaster> back
13:24:39 <tusho> optbot!
13:24:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 3PLN = $1 ;d.
13:24:43 <tusho> optbot!
13:24:43 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | argh.
13:24:48 <tusho>  yes
14:10:30 -!- RedDak has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:11:49 <tusho> hmm
14:12:03 <tusho> think i've basically hit the most minimum design here
14:12:39 <tusho> removing any more would add extra whitespace (enough to be ugly), or make the edit box too small, or remove the tiny bit of fonts I have
14:12:51 <tusho> Satisfying.
14:18:59 <oklopol> YOU'RE THE MAN!
14:19:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: mail coming your way
14:20:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, blergh -- makes thunderbird think everything below is a signature
14:20:59 <AnMaster> ;P
14:21:23 <Deewiant> hmm, must have typoed then
14:21:26 <Deewiant> it should be "-- "
14:21:30 <Deewiant> for signatures, that is
14:21:34 <Deewiant> or thunderbird is buggy :-P
14:21:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes there is a space there in your stuff
14:21:47 <AnMaster> Just all kinds of stuff that came to mind based on the draft version 2.
14:21:47 <AnMaster> -- You often say "IP index" when you mean "IP ID". I think it would be clearer to just use the latter all the way through. --
14:21:48 <tusho> LOL. whatismyip.org is down
14:22:00 <Deewiant> yeap, I typoed in the first --
14:22:00 <Deewiant> meh
14:22:01 <AnMaster> tusho, it isn't hard to get your ip..
14:22:13 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, but 'whatismyip.org[enter]' is instinctive
14:22:16 <Deewiant> ah well, I can resend it if you want ;-P
14:22:30 <tusho> meanwhile http://91.105.115.23/on/FooBarBaz:Sandbox behold the painful minimalism!
14:22:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes thanks
14:23:05 <AnMaster> tusho, nice, but I prefer sans-serif on screen
14:23:16 <tusho> AnMaster: The header and the footer are sans-serif. :P
14:23:23 <tusho> Also the headings.
14:23:26 <AnMaster> tusho, the main text I mean
14:23:40 <tusho> AnMaster: yea, I was trying to differenciate between the auxillary debris and the actual text
14:23:51 <tusho> and my reasoning was that the actual text is more formal than the clutter around it
14:24:02 <tusho> (even though that clutter is 2 lines, whatever)
14:24:05 <AnMaster> tusho, what about using <hr />?
14:24:19 <tusho> <hr /> is unsemantic, I'd add a bottom border
14:24:20 <tusho> but no
14:24:28 <tusho> i generally prefer typography & whitespace to seperate sections
14:24:46 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway I wouldn't read a wiki with that font for the main text
14:24:51 <AnMaster> I would go elsewhere
14:25:12 <tusho> my personal wiki of opinion will surely fail because of the money you deprive it by not clicking on its huge swaths of ads, I'm sure
14:25:24 <tusho> do you refuse to read any website that's in a serif font?
14:25:27 <tusho> if so, I lol'd
14:25:42 <AnMaster> ads?
14:25:46 <AnMaster> I use adblock
14:25:52 <tusho> AnMaster: it has 85 ads
14:25:55 <tusho> flashing all over the page
14:25:59 <tusho> you are depriving me of tons of money!
14:26:00 <AnMaster> tusho, and no I just think it is painful to read serif on screen
14:26:01 <tusho> i need your readership!
14:26:10 <Deewiant> baaaah
14:26:11 <AnMaster> no ads there
14:26:15 <Deewiant> thunderbird is buggy
14:26:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it adds the space?
14:26:46 <tusho> AnMaster: I am homeless and cannot afford food. You are depriving me money I need to stay alive by not clicking on the huge numbers of ads on my site, which you refuse to read because it's serif.
14:26:48 <tusho> Have you no heart? :(
14:27:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes
14:27:04 <AnMaster> tusho, there are no ads, I checked in another browser
14:27:12 <tusho> AnMaster: I CAN'T AFFORD FOOD
14:27:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well use a single - or whatever then :P
14:27:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so I just used 3 dashes now
14:27:18 <tusho> BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU
14:27:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that works too
14:28:19 <AnMaster> tusho, I would accept ads if they weren't animated, too many ads are animated, result: I block all ads
14:28:29 <tusho> AnMaster: DO YOU WANT ME TO STARVE?!?!?!!
14:28:30 <tusho> BASTARD
14:28:31 <AnMaster> and your site got no ads
14:29:26 <AnMaster> tusho, do you want people suffering from epilepsy to get a seizure when viewing your site?
14:29:41 <AnMaster> sure I don't have epilepsy, but I can't stand animated ads
14:29:42 <AnMaster> and
14:29:43 <tusho> AnMaster: AS LONG AS I CAN AFFORD FOOD
14:29:48 <tusho> WHICH I CAN'T RIGHT NOW
14:29:49 <AnMaster> THERE ARE NO ADS ON YOUR FUCKING WEBSITE
14:29:55 <tusho> I HAVE TO PICK UP SCRAPS FROM THE TRASH CANS
14:29:56 <AnMaster> I CHECKED WITH ANOTHER BROWSER
14:30:02 <tusho> THEY HAVE DISEASES
14:30:05 <AnMaster> ALSO YOU LIVE AT HOME SINCE YOU ARE 12
14:30:12 <AnMaster> poor girl
14:30:13 <AnMaster> ;P
14:30:15 <tusho> hahahaha you're like the easiest person to troll ever :D
14:30:25 <AnMaster> tusho, I'd say the same about you
14:30:26 <AnMaster> :P
14:30:45 <tusho> 4 minutes from naught to capitals and swearing
14:30:46 <tusho> excellent
14:31:05 <AnMaster> tusho, I just mimic you
14:31:26 <tusho> ah yes but I successfully annoyed you
14:33:03 <AnMaster> tusho, you did, becuase I was trying to read about function references in erlang
14:33:29 <tusho> cmeme: can you go away; ircbrowse is dead
14:33:57 <AnMaster> ircbrowse?
14:34:01 <AnMaster> why is it dead?
14:34:06 <tusho> AnMaster: ircbrowse.com
14:34:07 <tusho> it's dead
14:34:21 <AnMaster> tusho, or it is temp down simply
14:34:31 <tusho> no
14:34:33 <tusho> its been like that for months
14:34:36 <tusho> many months
14:34:36 <AnMaster> server problems *do* happen
14:34:38 <AnMaster> tusho, hm I see
14:34:39 <tusho> and before that cmeme kept crashing
14:34:43 <tusho> and not logging
14:34:46 <tusho> even when it was in here
14:35:07 <AnMaster> well get it out then?
14:35:20 <tusho> uh how
14:35:23 <tusho> i'm not an op
14:35:38 <AnMaster> ask lament when he is here?
14:35:49 <AnMaster> who else got +o?
14:35:49 <tusho> sure
14:35:55 <tusho> and fizzie
14:35:56 <tusho> I think
14:36:01 <tusho> aardappel is the channel owner
14:36:05 <tusho> but he hasn't come here since 2002 iir
14:36:05 <tusho> c
14:36:08 <AnMaster> haha
14:36:19 <tusho> (aardappel = FALSE)
14:36:23 <tusho> (and many others)
14:36:46 <AnMaster> well someone could make a group registration asking for take over of esoteric
14:36:57 <tusho> why
14:36:59 <AnMaster> as a nice side effect you could get esoteric/ cloaks then :P
14:37:05 <tusho> we're not a group
14:37:08 <tusho> this channel name is incorrect
14:37:10 <tusho> it should be ##esoteric
14:37:12 <AnMaster> true
14:37:14 <tusho> but it was made before that policy
14:37:21 <AnMaster> * You have been kicked from ##esoteric by ChanServ (Invite only channel)
14:37:22 <tusho> and there's no point changing it now
14:37:23 <AnMaster> interesting
14:37:34 <tusho> AnMaster: probably for the religious/magic kind of esoterica
14:37:42 <AnMaster> tusho, err what?
14:37:46 <AnMaster> tusho, also there was no one else there
14:37:51 <tusho> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric
14:37:53 <AnMaster> chanserv joined a second after me
14:38:14 <AnMaster> the channel was *dead*
14:38:19 <tusho> so what
14:38:22 <tusho> we are not changing to ##esoteric
14:38:24 <AnMaster> true
14:38:24 <tusho> it's not happening
14:38:42 <tusho> it's been like this since 2002 and freenode are too busy whining for money to do anything about the tos violation :p
14:41:35 -!- kar8nga has joined.
14:45:43 <fizzie> Uh, yes, I think I have a reasonably wide set of privileges in chanserv for #esoteric.
14:50:39 <tusho> fizzie: i won't believe it until you ban me
14:50:51 <tusho> that's what every op must do in here, otherwise they are not an op. it's simple logic, really.
14:50:57 <tusho> lament's the only one so far
14:52:19 <fizzie> Hmm, are freenode's services down? "ChanServ: No such nick/channel"
14:53:03 <Ilari> Just netsplitted...
14:53:16 <fizzie> How coincidental.
14:54:43 <tusho> everyone leave #esoteric
14:54:47 <tusho> I need to steal ops while services are away
14:54:47 <tusho> :D
14:55:10 <tusho> nuuuuuu
14:56:38 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
14:56:53 <fizzie> Did you really need the +b, too, or can I just deop myself now?
14:57:35 <tusho> yes
14:57:54 <tusho> i also need a kick
14:58:11 <tusho> fizzie: it is very important
14:58:23 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +b tusho!n=tusho@91.105.115.23.
14:59:23 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -b tusho!n=tusho@91.105.115.23.
14:59:27 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
14:59:33 <fizzie> Can't really say I saw the point in that.
15:00:02 <fizzie> Strange girl.
15:00:14 <Tritonio_> girl?
15:00:33 <fizzie> Well, he looks like one.
15:02:08 <fizzie> I wonder if the ban+kick thing was some sort of crafty "I will frame them to be horrible tyrants and complain to freenode people" ploy.
15:02:37 <fizzie> optbot: What do you think? Didn't tusho write you?
15:02:37 <optbot> fizzie: or well, one can't join graue's forum, but i meant with that which one to start using more
15:02:38 <Tritonio_> lol
15:03:25 -!- unrelatedguy has joined.
15:03:30 <unrelatedguy> fizzie my brother is not a girl
15:04:03 <fizzie> I think the word "brother" already implies that.
15:04:16 <unrelatedguy> actually my other brother is a girl
15:04:29 <Tritonio_> :-SD
15:04:46 <fizzie> My wife's sister is a boy, actually, so I guess that sort of stuff happens.
15:04:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:05:56 <unrelatedguy> anyway fizzie why did you ban my brother
15:06:27 <fizzie> Because it seemed to be his life-long ambition.
15:06:38 <unrelatedguy> what
15:06:39 <unrelatedguy> ?
15:07:05 <fizzie> Well, you probably already read the logs?
15:07:20 <unrelatedguy> yes he was joking...
15:07:31 <unrelatedguy> it's obvious
15:07:48 <fizzie> That can't be true. There were no smileys anywhere. It's not a joke if there's no ":)".
15:08:06 <unrelatedguy> sarcasm must be really fun for you
15:08:07 <unrelatedguy> i mean, ":)"
15:08:41 <unrelatedguy> now can you please unban my brother i don't think that was very nice
15:08:53 <fizzie> I already did, I think.
15:09:08 <unrelatedguy> ok i'll tell him
15:09:28 -!- tusho has joined.
15:09:33 <tusho> ah that's better
15:09:36 <unrelatedguy> hi tusho
15:09:38 <tusho> hi
15:09:47 <unrelatedguy> well, bye i guess
15:09:49 -!- unrelatedguy has quit ("leaving").
15:10:02 <Deewiant> I fail to see how this was very important
15:10:25 <fizzie> Incidentally, how can your brother be "unrelated" to you? Or maybe the nickname isn't related to this case.
15:11:01 <tusho> that's the nick he uses on irc...
15:11:34 <tusho> on a completely different note, I don't have a brother
15:11:58 <fizzie> Not even a female one? Gasp! Shock, horror.
15:12:10 <tusho> i know it's shocking
15:12:23 <tusho> fizzie: hey i think you missed the ":)"
15:12:32 <fizzie> Oh, sorry.
15:12:37 <fizzie> ":)"
15:12:59 <tusho> :D
15:13:25 <fizzie> I guess that's one way to get more chatter on the channel.
15:14:08 <tusho> another is optbot
15:14:08 <optbot> tusho: 72 bottles of beer on the wall, 72 bottles of beer.
15:14:15 <tusho> optbot: take one down and pass it around
15:14:16 <optbot> tusho: because youre at work?
15:14:20 <tusho> optbot: yes. can't drink at work.
15:14:20 <optbot> tusho: - becomes 1-
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15:51:32 -!- Ilari has quit (""Won't be back for a while..."").
16:05:52 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:06:23 -!- Judofyr has joined.
16:54:51 <AnMaster> new version of the draft of funge-108
16:54:56 <AnMaster> just some typo fixes
16:54:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
16:55:22 <AnMaster> same url as before
16:55:47 <Deewiant> if it's just some typo fixes it's not important enough to ping me ;-)
17:14:47 -!- Hiato has joined.
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18:00:45 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: another question btw, the matrix-creating instructions in 3DSP (PRSTY) don't make sense to me: P for instance is (Vdm Vsm -- ) - where's the result stored
18:02:13 <MikeRiley> stored on the stack, will have to fix the documentation one for that
18:02:32 <Deewiant> I guess it should be (Vsm -- Vdm) or something then?
18:02:59 <Deewiant> and how are vectors/matrices stored, x y z / x1 y1 z1 x2 y2 z2 x3 y3 z3 or what?
18:03:52 <MikeRiley> vectors: x y z
18:04:03 <MikeRiley> matrices x1 y1 z1 x2 y2 z2 x3 y3 z3
18:04:06 <Deewiant> (and document it!)
18:04:19 <MikeRiley> never claimed to be good at documenation!!! eheheeheheheheheeh
18:04:28 <MikeRiley> really need peer review for that stuff!!!! eheheheheheheeh
18:04:44 <MikeRiley> let me look at P,,,just a sec
18:05:12 <Deewiant> for subtraction, one never knows if it's "a - b" or "b - a"... the latter is standard in Funge but I'd document it anyway
18:05:36 <Deewiant> (applies to 3DSP's B, CPLI's S, probably FPSP/FPDP and others also)
18:05:43 <MikeRiley> actually,,,,hold on....need to take a look at the source....the matrices themselves may be in funge-space
18:06:07 <Deewiant> aha, so Vdm is a pointer to funge-space
18:06:19 <Deewiant> that was not at all obvious ;-)
18:06:50 <Deewiant> and then, they're stored x1 y1 z1 x2 y2 z2 x3 y3 z3 within funge-space, taking up 9 cells thus?
18:07:05 <MikeRiley> just looked at source,,,,matrices are in funge-space,,,,so where matrices are arguments they are vectors to funge-space
18:07:16 <MikeRiley> let me check the format,,,,hold on
18:07:44 <MikeRiley> stored in funge-space in 2 dimensions...
18:07:53 <MikeRiley> 3 cells by 3 cells
18:09:04 <MikeRiley> i guess that fingerprint can use some better documentation!!!! eheheheheheheheeheh
18:09:33 <Deewiant> yeah, I'd say so :-P
18:09:56 <Deewiant> and I guess they're like:
18:09:58 <Deewiant> x1 x2 x3
18:10:00 <Deewiant> y1 y2 y3
18:10:06 <Deewiant> or is it the other way around
18:10:17 <MikeRiley> x1y1 x2y1 x3y1
18:10:25 <MikeRiley> x1y2 x2y2 x3y2
18:10:33 <MikeRiley> x1y3 x2y3 x3y3
18:10:42 <MikeRiley> vector points to the x1y1 cell
18:10:43 <Deewiant> eh what?
18:10:46 <Deewiant> aye
18:10:54 <Deewiant> but
18:11:00 <Deewiant> is x3y1 an x- or z-coordinate
18:11:29 <MikeRiley> x3y1 would be a z coordinate
18:11:35 <Deewiant> okay
18:11:36 <Deewiant> so
18:11:38 <Deewiant> x1 y1 z1
18:11:41 <Deewiant> x2 y2 z2
18:11:43 <Deewiant> x3 y3 z3
18:11:45 <MikeRiley> yes
18:11:48 <Deewiant> and the vector points to x1
18:11:52 <MikeRiley> correct
18:11:53 <Deewiant> okay, document this ;-)
18:11:59 <MikeRiley> will do!!!!
18:12:04 <Deewiant> oh, and V
18:12:09 <Deewiant> what exactly should it do
18:12:22 <MikeRiley> let me look
18:12:51 <MikeRiley> that functions maps a 3d point to a 2d point, if you hold on, can get you the formula for it??
18:13:15 <Deewiant> there are many ways of doing it
18:13:18 <MikeRiley> idea of that fingerprint is to be able to work with objects in 3 dimensional space, but be able to draw them on the screen in 2 dimenstions...
18:13:24 <MikeRiley> yes there are ,,,, let me get my formula...
18:13:31 <Deewiant> so document which way it is ;-)
18:13:35 <MikeRiley> which came out of a raytracing book, if i remember....
18:13:53 <MikeRiley>     case EX_3DSP+14:Float.i=Pop(cip); b.z=Float.f;                    /*  V */
18:13:53 <MikeRiley>                     Float.i=Pop(cip); b.y=Float.f;
18:13:53 <MikeRiley>                     Float.i=Pop(cip); b.x=Float.f;
18:13:53 <MikeRiley>                     if (b.z==0) Float.f=b.x; else Float.f=b.x/b.z;
18:13:53 <MikeRiley>                     Push(Float.i,cip);
18:13:54 <MikeRiley>                     if (b.z==0) Float.f=b.y; else Float.f=b.y/b.z;
18:13:56 <MikeRiley>                     Push(Float.i,cip);
18:13:58 <MikeRiley>                     break;
18:14:50 <Deewiant> so it's just (x,y,z) -> (x/z, y/z)
18:17:06 <Deewiant> hmm, what's with the zero checks
18:17:17 <MikeRiley> to prevent division by zero errors...
18:17:28 <Deewiant> floating point division by zero is well-defined :-P
18:17:34 <MikeRiley> z=0 is the same plane as the screen
18:17:37 <Deewiant> 1/0 -> infinity
18:17:41 <Deewiant> but yeah, I see
18:17:52 <Deewiant> you don't want infinity
18:17:57 <MikeRiley> positive z is away from viewer,,,negative z is towards viewer
18:18:13 <MikeRiley> no,,,since z=0 is the reference poitn for everything else
18:18:48 <MikeRiley> so with z=0, no perspective calculation needs to be done, just use the x and y as is
18:31:27 <MikeRiley> important point,,,Rc/Funge-98 source code for 3DSP is a bad example, it is ALL WRONG!!!! looks like it is working with interger values instead of floating point.....i have to rewrite that module....
18:31:34 <Deewiant> :-D
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18:32:14 <MikeRiley> all of the numbers used in 3DSP need to be floating point,,,same as in FPSP...
18:32:31 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: hmm BTW, translation matrices need to be 4x4 don't they??
18:32:49 <MikeRiley> yes actually....
18:32:57 <Deewiant> so wth :-P
18:33:07 <Deewiant> or is that meant to be handled in X
18:33:08 <MikeRiley> Rc/Funge-98 is using 4x4 matrices....
18:33:16 <Deewiant> they're all 4x4??
18:33:19 <MikeRiley> looking
18:33:37 <MikeRiley> yes they are all 4x4
18:33:42 <Deewiant> okay
18:34:13 <MikeRiley> so revise what i said earlier about matrices in funge-space,,,they are stored 4x4...
18:35:48 <MikeRiley> the functions i was using for matric storage:
18:35:59 <MikeRiley> struct MATRIX Get_Matrix(int x,int y,int z)
18:35:59 <MikeRiley> {
18:35:59 <MikeRiley>   int fx,fy;
18:35:59 <MikeRiley>   int i;
18:35:59 <MikeRiley>   struct MATRIX Result;
18:36:00 <MikeRiley>   union FLOAT {
18:36:02 <MikeRiley>     float f;
18:36:04 <MikeRiley>     long int i;
18:36:06 <MikeRiley>     } f;
18:36:08 <MikeRiley>   i=0;
18:36:10 <MikeRiley>   for (fy=0;fy<4;fy++)
18:36:12 <MikeRiley>     for (fx=0;fx<4;fx++) {
18:36:14 <MikeRiley>       f.i=Get_Funge(x+(i++),y,z);
18:36:16 <MikeRiley>       Result.c[fx][fy]=f.f;
18:36:18 <MikeRiley>       }
18:36:20 <MikeRiley>   return Result;
18:36:22 <MikeRiley> }
18:36:24 <MikeRiley> void Put_Matrix(struct MATRIX *a,int x,int y,int z)
18:36:26 <MikeRiley> {
18:36:28 <MikeRiley>   int fx,fy;
18:36:30 <MikeRiley>   int i;
18:36:32 <MikeRiley>   union FLOAT {
18:36:34 <MikeRiley>     float f;
18:36:36 <MikeRiley>     long int i;
18:36:38 <MikeRiley>     } f;
18:36:40 <MikeRiley>   i=0;
18:36:42 <MikeRiley>   for (fy=0;fy<4;fy++)
18:36:44 <MikeRiley>     for (fx=0;fx<4;fx++) {
18:36:46 <MikeRiley>       f.f=a->c[fx][fy];
18:36:48 <MikeRiley>       Put_Funge(x+(i++),y,z,f.i);
18:36:50 <MikeRiley>       }
18:36:52 <MikeRiley> }
18:36:54 <MikeRiley> which also look wrong actually!!!! eheheheheheheeheheheh
18:37:34 <MikeRiley> that whole module looks like it needs to be scrapped and rewritten!!!! eheheheheheheeheh
18:38:13 <MikeRiley> shoult be Get_Funge(x+fx,y+fy,z) and Put_Funge(x+fx,y+fy,z,f.i)
18:38:45 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: X is just matrix*vector, right?
18:38:58 <MikeRiley> correct
18:39:59 <MikeRiley> starting to wonder how my test program for that fingerprint ever worked!!!
18:40:32 <MikeRiley> but running it,,,,does come up with the right values....hmmmmmmmm
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18:41:55 <MikeRiley> think i will write a new test program for that module that is more rigourous,,,
18:47:02 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: what order should Y multiply in
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18:47:33 <MikeRiley> (vdm v1m v2m) = v1m * v2m
18:47:46 <Deewiant> thanks, and document that ;-)
18:48:16 <MikeRiley> actually i see how my code works now....it is correct....do need to fix Get_Matrix and Put_Matrix tho....rest is correct,,,,probably will not work right on a 64-bit machine tho...
18:48:26 <MikeRiley> yep...need to document it!! :)
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18:49:49 <MikeRiley> single is 32-bits, so fits in the 32-bit cells of Rc/Funge-98....using the integer protion of a union to get/put cells, but using the float portion of the union for the calculations...
18:50:19 <MikeRiley> not as much rewriting as i thought,,,but will need to modify the code to be 64-bit safe...
18:52:37 <MikeRiley> brb
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19:07:11 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: just read your e-mails
19:07:22 <Deewiant> about MODU, good point, I forgot it was cat's-eye's, my bad
19:08:01 <Deewiant> about DATE, yes, some people don't use the gregorian, such as some asian countries
19:08:17 <Deewiant> about EMEM, so "addr" is an offset into the malloced array if I got you correctly?
19:08:56 <Deewiant> for IMAP, great, but why not go all the way and allow all values that a cell can hold
19:11:10 <MikeRiley> bacj
19:11:12 <MikeRiley> back that is
19:11:33 <MikeRiley> ok, DATE will be more specific
19:11:48 <MikeRiley> yes addr in EMEM referes to the address in the malloc'ed block,,,
19:12:24 <MikeRiley> i suppose IMAP could do that, just complicates the code...right now i just use a 256 element array so quick conversion,,,could go to something else...
19:13:34 <Deewiant> start by documenting what IMAP is supposed to do :-)
19:13:36 <MikeRiley> in EMEM addr=0 is the first byte of alloc'ed memory,,,the actual memory pointer is not exposed to the funge program itself
19:13:51 <MikeRiley> i have changed IMAP in the documentaion, just not posted it yet
19:13:52 <Deewiant> except via hnd
19:14:12 <MikeRiley> even hnd is not necesarily the actual pointer returned my malloc,,,
19:14:17 <Deewiant> and I'm not sure I'm going to implement EMEM, it seems totally pointless to me :-P
19:14:25 <MikeRiley> for the most part it is....
19:14:32 <Deewiant> for what part isn't it
19:14:35 <MikeRiley> i doubt i will ever use that one myself...
19:14:57 <Deewiant> if I were you I'd just remove it entirely, it has practically zero use
19:14:57 <MikeRiley> on a system where the pointer returned from malloc does not fit into the cell size, then some other mechanism must be used
19:15:11 <Deewiant> since we already have two data storage locations
19:15:15 <MikeRiley> agree,,,,near zero use....but already written....
19:15:18 <Deewiant> funge-space, and stack stacks
19:15:22 <Deewiant> er
19:15:25 <Deewiant> stacks on the stack stack*
19:15:54 <Deewiant> the only point for EMEM that I can see is if you're running on a /very/ low-memory system
19:15:57 <MikeRiley> not sure why i even defined EMEM actually,,,probably was bored that day and decided to do somethign strange...
19:16:04 <Deewiant> but... you're not going to be running funge on such a system anyway
19:16:10 <MikeRiley> agreed
19:16:15 <Deewiant> and even if you are, you can't do many useful things even with EMEM
19:17:02 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: and as for "already written", I'm going to quote from another channel
19:17:05 <Deewiant> 2008-08-10 18:56:16 ( gwern) for every line of code you delete, god resurrects a kitten
19:17:14 <Deewiant> ;-)
19:17:55 <olsner> hmm, I wonder if the reverse also holds... that for every line of code you write, god kills a kitten
19:18:12 <MikeRiley> eheheheheheheheheheheheh
19:18:16 <Deewiant> only if somebody asks you to delete it ;-)
19:19:50 <tusho> every time you program in visual basic a kitten kills god
19:21:58 <MikeRiley> chances are EMEM was the result of being bored and running out of fingerprint ideas!!! eheheheeheh
19:22:33 <Deewiant> meh, you don't have to churn out a fingerprint every day :-P
19:22:42 <Deewiant> especially if it's just a pointless one >_<
19:23:04 <MikeRiley> i know....but when i get bored,,,got to do something...eheheheeheheheh
19:23:19 <MikeRiley> and since funge is my current focus these days,,,that is what gets worked on...
19:23:43 <Deewiant> have you got a funge-108 mode yet, do that instead :-P
19:24:01 <MikeRiley> i have most of one...not too much more to do and then it should work,,,
19:24:15 <MikeRiley> i have all the simpler stuff,,,,like reflects on negatives for various instructions....
19:24:22 <Deewiant> so do that instead of creating useless fingerprints >_<
19:24:28 <MikeRiley> have a changed version of the new fingerprints....
19:24:49 <MikeRiley> what is wrong with useless fingerprints???? half the fingerprints i have made are probably useless!! eheheehheeheheh
19:25:13 <Deewiant> some are at least interesting, such as TRDS
19:25:27 <Deewiant> but EMEM is useless /and/ boring :-P
19:25:32 <MikeRiley> that one i think was born out of insanity!!!! eheheheheheeheh
19:25:42 <MikeRiley> will not disagree about EMEM
19:25:54 <Deewiant> I guess you pass mycotrds, or?
19:26:31 <MikeRiley> no,,,,it passes my own diagnostics now....but mycotrds exits normally before it should...i sent you an email about it,,,wondering what should have happened....never got a response...
19:26:44 <MikeRiley> so trds is on hold at the moment while i define some more useless fingerprints!!! eheheheheheeheh
19:27:16 <psygnisfive> whooo so im using this here dvorak keyboard and im getting faster and faster :o
19:27:36 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: you can always look at CCBI's results to see what should happen
19:28:16 <MikeRiley> i have looked at CCBI's results,,,,but still not quite sure what the code was doing....did not feel like diving into it....
19:28:18 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: the problem with TRDS is that it's never obvious what exactly is going on and where, so I can't just tell you where the problem is from your output :-P
19:28:36 <MikeRiley> should just crank up the debugger and single step through that section...
19:28:46 <Deewiant> so how can you be bored if you haven't resolved this? ;-P
19:28:55 <Deewiant> more interesting than EMEM at least...
19:29:07 <MikeRiley> true,,,would be more interesting than EMEM....
19:29:31 <MikeRiley> shall i just mark EMEM as deprecated and mention that nobody should implement it??? eheheeheheheheheheheheheheh
19:29:51 <Deewiant> how about, remove it and say it was a stupid idea ;-P
19:30:11 <MikeRiley> kinda like PNTR,,,,very surprised that you have a test for that since PNTR was renamed to INDV very very early...
19:30:29 <Deewiant> if you renamed it very very early, why'd you keep it in the readme :-P
19:30:40 <MikeRiley> ummmmmmmmmm oversight??????
19:30:44 <Deewiant> >___<
19:30:54 <MikeRiley> remember,,,,not terribly good with documentation!!! eheheheheeheheheh
19:30:55 <Deewiant> so how about removing that, too
19:31:33 <MikeRiley> i agree that the PNTR should not exist,,,in the original registry it actually appeared as INDV,,,no sense in having 2 names for the same module...
19:31:53 <MikeRiley> i will remove it from all my documentation if you remove teh tests for it in mycology....
19:32:01 <Deewiant> sure
19:32:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: if you implement PNTR, don't.
19:32:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what?
19:32:29 <AnMaster> I do
19:32:34 <AnMaster> INDV/PNTR
19:32:37 <AnMaster> they are the same iirc
19:32:37 <MikeRiley> PNTR and INDV are the same
19:32:37 <Deewiant> see above
19:32:41 <Deewiant> PNTR is ancient
19:32:48 <Deewiant> and an accident that it still exists
19:32:53 <AnMaster> well it is a valid alias now
19:32:53 <MikeRiley> PNTR was renamed to INDV long long ago....at chris's request...
19:33:00 <AnMaster> not much you can do about it
19:33:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: just remove it.
19:33:31 <MikeRiley> nothing should have ever implemented PNTR...only INDV....
19:33:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do someone want to use PNTR for something else?
19:33:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: someone might.
19:33:43 <AnMaster> anyway I just map it as an alias to INDV
19:33:52 <Deewiant> yeah, so remove it.
19:34:04 <MikeRiley> that is how it is in my code now....a pointer to INDV,,,,and that did not happen until mycology wanted to test PNTR....
19:34:08 <AnMaster> why? it might break code compatiblity
19:34:20 <MikeRiley> there should not be any code that uses PNTR....
19:34:37 <AnMaster> what if there is?
19:34:50 <MikeRiley> then the code needs to change PNTR to INDV....
19:35:18 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, anyway why is EMEM a stupid ide?
19:35:19 <AnMaster> idea?
19:35:41 <MikeRiley> did not say it was a stupid idea....only that it does not have much use...
19:35:52 <AnMaster> what about for SMEM?
19:35:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it is
19:35:58 <MikeRiley> SMEM has a use....
19:36:06 <Deewiant> SMEM I don't know about, but EMEM is utterly pointless
19:36:11 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, don't you need to allocate with EMEM first to use it with SMEM?
19:36:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not really, for interaction with native code it seems very useful
19:36:31 <MikeRiley> no you do not...are you familiar with what SysV shared memory is???
19:36:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ... how would you use EMEM to interact with native code
19:36:47 <AnMaster> if I ever implement the C<->Befunge FFI I planned EMEM seems like a good idea
19:37:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you do realize that EMEM would be incompatible with such an FFI
19:37:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you need to pass pointers to native code sometimes
19:37:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and where do you get the pointer from
19:37:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how would it?
19:37:12 <AnMaster> from EMEM?
19:37:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you can't get the pointer from EMEM.
19:37:28 <MikeRiley> yes and no on that....
19:37:33 <Deewiant> you only get an abstract handle.
19:37:36 <MikeRiley> depends how you implement EMEM,,,,
19:37:39 <AnMaster> well maybe the FFI would have an "extract pointer from EMEM using handle"
19:37:40 <Deewiant> if you use it as a pointer your code is INCORRECT.
19:37:53 <MikeRiley> even as an abstract pointer,,,,for my implementation,,,the real pointer is obtainable from the IP data block
19:38:06 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, IP data block?
19:38:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why do that when you can just call malloc directly from the FFI.
19:38:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, true
19:38:26 <MikeRiley> the data structure that holds all the info for an IP,,,,position, delta, etc...
19:38:37 <AnMaster> anyway there is a reason:
19:38:42 <AnMaster> More fingerprints = more features
19:38:53 <AnMaster> more features = more potential users
19:39:17 <MikeRiley> valid point there
19:39:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so you think it's a good idea to have a huge fingerprint tree, only one of which does something useful, the others are only supporting instructions for that one? :-P
19:39:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, probably not
19:39:45 <AnMaster> "the vibrant funge community" is still far from a reality
19:39:46 <AnMaster> ;P
19:39:47 <Deewiant> EMEM would be like that, useless in itself
19:40:28 <MikeRiley> i do not believe that you should have a bunch of fingerprints only to support some other fingerprint....
19:40:42 <MikeRiley> each fingerprint should have its own uses...
19:40:44 <AnMaster> I have been thinking of writing a Funge-93 interpreter in erlang
19:40:49 <Deewiant> I agree, but EMEM has no uses
19:40:51 <AnMaster> mainly as a nice project to learn erlang
19:40:55 <MikeRiley> as it is,,,,none of my fingerprints require some other fingerprint to be loaded...
19:41:06 <Deewiant> SCKE is like that, though
19:41:12 <Deewiant> which is why I don't like it very much
19:41:24 <MikeRiley> not really,,,it just added features to SOCK,,,
19:41:36 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, idea for a good fingerprint however:
19:41:36 <MikeRiley> just like JSTR changed features of STRN
19:41:38 <AnMaster> SCK6
19:41:45 <AnMaster> like SOCK but for IPv6
19:42:04 <Deewiant> JSTR can be used without STRN, SCKE can't be used without SOCK
19:42:07 <AnMaster> or maybe it should become part of SOCK, but I don't like changing existing fingerprints
19:42:14 <MikeRiley> i agree SCK6 would be a good addition
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19:42:52 <MikeRiley> i agree about changing fingerprints,,,especially ones that have been around a long time....
19:42:59 <MikeRiley> so SCKE makes sense for what it added...
19:43:02 <dogface> I beg to differ.
19:43:22 <psygnisfive> ok forget the dvorak keyboard
19:43:23 <psygnisfive> :P
19:43:32 <MikeRiley> changing a fingerprint that somebody might be using,,,can break code...better to make a new one....
19:43:33 <psygnisfive> ========================-=-----------------------
19:43:38 <psygnisfive> whoops
19:43:44 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, of course with Funge-108 that would be easy, if you had an uri (gopher://example.org/0/funge/my-hand/my-finger/1.0) then you could make a 2.0 and so on
19:43:47 <AnMaster> and even better
19:44:06 <AnMaster> the author could say that gopher://example.org/0/funge/my-hand/my-finger should map to the last one that is implemented
19:44:08 <AnMaster> maybe
19:44:23 <MikeRiley> well...even tho i do not like the uri for the fingerprint name,,,,still nothing but a string compare as far as i am concerned,,,and so yes....could be versioned that way....
19:44:55 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, string compare with some twists, uris are case sensitive, but the domain name isn't
19:45:06 <AnMaster> there are more details in the rfc
19:45:15 <MikeRiley> you can use case insensitive string cmpare....strcasecmp.....
19:45:24 <AnMaster> well the rest of it is case sensitive
19:45:31 <AnMaster> I will need to read up on the details myself
19:45:36 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,partly then.....
19:47:07 <AnMaster> what license is RC/Funge under?
19:47:42 <MikeRiley> my own....modify it, use it, copy, distribute,,,no commercial use without my permission,,,,my copyright notices must remain inteact....
19:48:05 <MikeRiley> very close to bsd license,,,,but i disallow commercial use...
19:48:13 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, you are interested in section 6 of http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt only
19:48:17 <AnMaster> a much smaller chunk
19:48:22 <MikeRiley> looking
19:49:07 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, around 6 pages
19:49:16 <AnMaster> much much less than the around 72 pages in total
19:49:42 <MikeRiley> yes,,,,that looks reasonable...
19:50:03 <AnMaster> "For this reason,
19:50:03 <AnMaster>    determination of equivalence or difference of URIs is based on string
19:50:03 <AnMaster>    comparison, perhaps augmented by reference to additional rules
19:50:03 <AnMaster>    provided by URI scheme definitions"
19:50:20 <AnMaster> those additional rules may be a tiny problem
19:50:47 <MikeRiley> that is partly why i disagree on uris,,,,solves the problem in too complicated a way...
19:51:07 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, it certainly avoids collision issue though
19:51:14 <MikeRiley> the 4 character one was lousy,,,but i think the uri approach is doing too much...
19:51:21 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, you see I had some collision issues with tusho here
19:51:23 <MikeRiley> i agree on the goal...to avoid collisions....
19:51:30 <AnMaster> regarding handprint
19:51:31 <MikeRiley> just think there are better ways to go about it
19:51:32 <AnMaster> CFUN
19:51:43 <tusho> MikeRiley is wrong
19:51:44 <AnMaster> and same could easily happen for fingerprint
19:51:50 <tusho> URIs are specifically designed to be universal identifiers
19:51:56 <tusho> and should be used for this purpose whenever possible
19:52:00 <MikeRiley> i understand that...that was the problem with the original method...
19:52:18 <tusho> and URIs are the right way to solve it
19:52:25 <tusho> because they are specifically designed for it
19:52:28 <MikeRiley> maybe so tusho....but i am a believer in the keep it simple philosophy....
19:52:32 <tusho> and interoperability between technologies is a good thing
19:52:35 <tusho> and URIs are simple
19:52:39 <tusho> you don't implement them yourself
19:52:40 <tusho> you use a library
19:52:40 <MikeRiley> and uris do not provide a simple solution to the problem
19:52:48 <tusho> but you appear to ignore me whenever I say "use a library"
19:52:59 <MikeRiley> very against the use of code tht is not mine
19:53:04 <MikeRiley> so do not use most libraries
19:53:11 <MikeRiley> unless they are very standardized...
19:53:16 <tusho> riiiight
19:53:19 <tusho> your problem then
19:53:20 <MikeRiley> and even then,,,,i tend not to use them...
19:53:28 <MikeRiley> no disagreement there...
19:53:29 <tusho> don't use others code = you suffer whenever something non-trivial comes up
19:53:40 <MikeRiley> not necesarily...
19:53:46 <tusho> "implementing it -from scratch- is complicated" does not mean something is complicated.
19:53:49 <MikeRiley> just means i have to code more...
19:53:54 <MikeRiley> i do not have a problem with that...
19:54:02 <MikeRiley> somebody else's code also means someobyd else's bugs...
19:54:07 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, cfunge use no external libraries that aren't very common (ncurses) or optional (Boehm-GC)
19:54:08 <MikeRiley> that may not be fixable by me....
19:54:10 <tusho> for URIs, most people will do uri_parse("..."), then uri_equal(x, y)
19:54:13 <tusho> tada
19:54:14 <tusho> that's simple
19:54:18 <MikeRiley> at least with my code...i can understand and fix problems
19:54:19 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, it does however use some small libraries where the source is included
19:54:22 <tusho> and comes with a good standard designed exactly for this behind it
19:54:25 <AnMaster> in the lib directory
19:54:26 <tusho> and interoperability
19:54:27 <AnMaster> mostly 1-2 files
19:54:31 <AnMaster> one is 3 iirc
19:54:34 <AnMaster> but as you see
19:54:41 <AnMaster> such a method could be used
19:54:55 <MikeRiley> Rc/Funge-98 uses no libraries outside of what can be found in any unix installation...
19:55:07 <tusho> uri libraries are small
19:55:07 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, so include the code?
19:55:10 <tusho> just include it as a c file
19:55:17 <MikeRiley> no additional libararies are required...and therefore easier for somebody else to compile and get running....
19:55:22 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I use a small 2 file hash library for example
19:55:26 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: such as X, which isn't found in most of my unix installations...
19:55:27 <AnMaster> I include the source *inside* cfunge
19:55:31 <MikeRiley> nothing i hate more than program where i have to go and find 20 other libraries to get working...
19:55:40 <tusho> MikeRiley: so INCLUDE THE SOURCE
19:55:43 <tusho> in your source tree
19:55:45 <tusho> it's only one file
19:55:46 <AnMaster> -bash: X: command not found
19:55:47 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: package managers and such exist
19:55:54 <AnMaster> on one system
19:56:01 <MikeRiley> as far as X,,,do not include those modules...only TURT and WIND use x....
19:56:03 <AnMaster> ANYWAY WHY NOT JUST INCLUDE THE C FILE IF IT IS SMALL
19:56:04 <AnMaster> I do that
19:56:09 <MikeRiley> and if you do not have x....those those are not usefull anyways...
19:56:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System
19:56:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I know
19:56:34 <AnMaster> I got it on this system though
19:56:36 <tusho> welp, seems MikeRiley is just simply pretending the lines that answer his question don't exist...
19:56:37 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: I might have something else instead, though :-P
19:56:38 <MikeRiley> then comes licensing issues when using other people's code....i may not agree with their licensing terms...
19:56:39 <tusho> again.
19:56:52 <tusho> MikeRiley: there are BSD/MIT licensed uri libs...
19:56:53 <tusho> tons of them
19:57:02 <MikeRiley> i know that....
19:57:03 <tusho> you can just include them in your source tree
19:58:08 <MikeRiley> again,,,do not like including other code within my projects...
19:58:16 <MikeRiley> will come up with my own solutions instead...
19:58:23 <tusho> MikeRiley: then have fun implementing URIs
19:58:28 <tusho> but we've offered perfectly good solutions
19:58:30 <tusho> you just don't like them
19:58:33 <MikeRiley> will not implement uris,,,,and do not need to....
19:58:43 <tusho> ok then you won't conform to funge-108
19:58:47 <tusho> so have fun with that
19:58:57 <MikeRiley> as long as i can load fingerprints for funge-108,,,then it conforms....
19:59:10 <tusho> you won't be able to if you don't support uris
19:59:11 <MikeRiley> and string comparison will accomplish that...
19:59:12 <Deewiant> and how can you, without implementing them...
19:59:17 <tusho> MikeRiley: no it won't
19:59:19 <tusho> uris have case rules
19:59:22 <tusho> HTTP:// = http://
19:59:25 <MikeRiley> i can deal with the case rules...
19:59:29 <tusho> and there's various things that cancel each other out
19:59:36 <tusho> once you implement them all you just implemented URIs.
20:00:04 <MikeRiley> i may do something simpler...case may not really matter...will see when somebody starts making fingerprint names with uris....
20:00:16 <Deewiant> of course it will matter
20:00:20 <MikeRiley> until then,,,it is a moot point...
20:00:24 <tusho> Deewiant: I hope mycology-108 will test uri equivilence thoroughly
20:00:25 <tusho> :)
20:00:33 <Deewiant> tusho: I won't be the one to write it :-P
20:00:43 <tusho> Deewiant: hehe, AnMaster might
20:00:49 <AnMaster> ?
20:00:54 <tusho> AnMaster: mycology-108
20:01:01 <tusho> to test for things like uri equivilence works for loading fingerprints
20:01:03 <Deewiant> I don't like funge-108 as a whole anyhoo, -98 is good enough
20:01:13 <tusho> MikeRiley is claiming that he can implement uri equivilence wrongly and still be conformant
20:01:16 <tusho> but of course it won't be
20:01:21 <tusho> since he will consider the same URI as seperate
20:01:26 <tusho> and thus a bug in fingerprint loading
20:01:31 <tusho> so mycology-108 should test that
20:01:36 <AnMaster> ah yes
20:01:38 <AnMaster> maybe
20:01:39 <MikeRiley> i will make sure that i can load defined fingerprints,,,and will not claim funge108 complience,,,even tho it mostly will be...
20:01:47 <AnMaster> at least I will write a few test suites for it
20:01:49 <MikeRiley> NOT claiming conformance...
20:01:57 <tusho> MikeRiley: ok. if you just want to be wrong and even though we tell you easy ways to be right, then just fine
20:01:59 <AnMaster> tusho, I already got some small test programs to test some parts
20:02:04 <tusho> MikeRiley: your loss
20:02:22 <tusho> cfunge will be a "funge-108 interpreter" and yours will be a "broken partly-funge-108 interpreter"
20:02:27 <AnMaster> heck *I* will use an URI library
20:02:30 <MikeRiley> that is fine....you are right,,,,my loss....since i am probably the only user of Rc/Funge-98 anyways...does not really matter does it???
20:02:43 <tusho> no, but by that argument I don't even know why you are bothering changing it
20:03:10 <MikeRiley> because i do use it....
20:03:22 <MikeRiley> and if somebody writes funge108 programs,,,i would like to be able to run them...
20:03:27 <MikeRiley> compliant or not....
20:03:32 <tusho> MikeRiley: but what if they happen to rely on that weird uri behaviour
20:03:36 <Deewiant> even though you won't be able to, if you're not compliant...
20:03:38 <tusho> because they're insane - after all this is befunge
20:03:42 <MikeRiley> i doubt any ever will...
20:03:45 <tusho> MikeRiley: O RLY?
20:03:48 <tusho> You underestimate esolang programmers.
20:04:01 <tusho> If your impl is broken due to some obscure cornercase, you can bet someone will write a program that will break because of it
20:04:04 <tusho> but work on compliant impls
20:04:05 <MikeRiley> not really,,,,we shall see...
20:04:14 <MikeRiley> i do not doubt that!!!!
20:04:14 <tusho> i think I might
20:04:14 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, %63 is same as c I think for exmaple
20:04:20 <MikeRiley> in which case,,,i will fix the corner case...
20:04:30 <tusho> MikeRiley: and eventually we'll cover them all
20:04:33 <tusho> and you'll have implemented URIs
20:04:50 <MikeRiley> well...then i will have implemented URIs!!!! the hard way!!!!! eheheheheheheheeheh
20:05:01 <tusho> so, we were trying to offer the easy way
20:05:15 <tusho> that also lets you say 108-compliant. :p
20:05:22 <MikeRiley> yeah,,,but one person's easy way is not necessarily good for anotgher...
20:05:36 <tusho> alright
20:05:42 <tusho> have fun implementing URIs ... over months ...
20:05:50 <MikeRiley> different people....different philosophies...
20:06:06 <MikeRiley> i guarantee you,,,i will have fun at it!!! even if it takes years....
20:07:08 <MikeRiley> my fun is working on the interpreter....find things that break it,,,,means more fun for me fixing it....
20:07:42 <MikeRiley> mycology was the greatest thing ever for my funge fun....found all kinds of problems that needed to be fixed!!!! eheheheheheehh
20:08:08 <tusho> AnMaster: can I help write mycology-108
20:08:11 <tusho> I wanna include fuzz testing in it
20:08:11 <tusho> :D
20:08:18 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: what does the UNDEF test in INDV say for RC/Funge-98
20:08:32 <AnMaster> tusho, hah, no fuzz testing would be a separate program
20:08:40 <MikeRiley> hold on....let me get it
20:08:41 <tusho> AnMaster: no no no it wouldn't be for no-crashness
20:08:45 <AnMaster> but it could be a part
20:08:47 <tusho> it would be to actually test funge 108 compliance
20:08:51 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: you don't need a new mycology
20:08:53 <AnMaster> tusho, yes like mycorand is a separate part
20:09:00 <MikeRiley> Testing fingerprint INDV... loaded.
20:09:01 <MikeRiley> GOOD: G works
20:09:01 <MikeRiley> GOOD: P works
20:09:01 <MikeRiley> UNDEF: V uses illogical RC/Funge-98 order
20:09:01 <MikeRiley> GOOD: W works
20:09:05 <tusho> AnMaster: well, presumably mycology-108 will be like 5-7 parts
20:09:12 <tusho> and mycology108.bf will just do each one
20:09:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the only reason mycorand is separate is for befunge-93
20:09:15 <AnMaster> tusho, I think that is said to SHOULD not MUST in most cases
20:09:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mycoinput then
20:09:25 <AnMaster> and mycotrds
20:09:27 <tusho> AnMaster: not just "give the input crap see what it does"
20:09:30 <tusho> but a constrained range of crap
20:09:31 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: so have you thought about switching to the logical order, and maybe specifying it like that? ;-)
20:09:34 <tusho> and to test for behaviour
20:09:38 <AnMaster> tusho, the software may not implement i and o
20:09:46 <MikeRiley> actually,,,yes i have thought about it,,,and will actually do that...
20:09:53 <AnMaster> tusho, and yes that makes sense
20:09:54 <tusho> AnMaster: well yes, it wouldn't use them
20:09:55 <tusho> but yea
20:09:56 <tusho> :D
20:10:23 <AnMaster> anyway atm I'm googling for an uri library
20:10:56 <AnMaster> http://www.w3.org/Library/src/HTParse.html
20:10:59 <AnMaster> that seems relevant
20:11:04 <AnMaster> will need to take a closer look
20:11:14 <tusho> yes use that one AnMaster
20:11:17 <tusho> since its from the w3c
20:11:21 <tusho> they are pretty good with uris
20:11:21 <tusho> :P
20:11:25 <AnMaster> tusho, yeah :P
20:11:36 <AnMaster> need to check license though
20:11:37 <MikeRiley> got to run for now...church to go to....thanks for the stimulating conversation!!! and hope my devil's advocate approach does not offend anybody.....bye for now...
20:11:43 <tusho> bye MikeRiley
20:11:47 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, cya
20:11:54 <AnMaster> church?
20:11:56 <AnMaster> church numerals?
20:12:01 <MikeRiley> yes,,,church...
20:12:07 <tusho> MikeRiley: he was making a joke
20:12:09 <tusho> (a rather lame one)
20:12:16 <MikeRiley> take care all!!!
20:12:16 <AnMaster> isn't that for lambda calculus?
20:12:20 <tusho> yes AnMaster
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20:12:26 <tusho> 0=\fx.x
20:12:28 <tusho> 1=\fx.fx
20:12:32 <tusho> 2=\fx.f(fx)
20:12:36 <tusho> 3=\fx.f(f(fx))
20:12:36 <tusho> etc
20:12:55 <AnMaster> k
20:13:02 <AnMaster> I don't get lambda calculus
20:13:07 <tusho> you've said
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20:38:51 <oklopol> AnMaster: do you understand the concept of lambda?
20:38:55 <oklopol> nameless function
20:39:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes, I seen it in a few languages
20:39:41 <AnMaster> like C#
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20:39:51 <oklopol> okay, lambda calculus is about just having those.
20:39:54 <oklopol> and nothing else
20:40:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, and no + or - and so on iirc
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20:40:15 <oklopol> turns out we can define things like integers and lists as functions returning other functions
20:40:35 <AnMaster> oklopol, what does the innermost function return?
20:40:44 <oklopol> umm what?
20:40:47 <oklopol> ah
20:40:55 <oklopol> well it will return a function.
20:40:58 <oklopol> that is not called
20:41:09 <AnMaster> ok....
20:41:20 <oklopol> now
20:41:46 <oklopol> 2=\fx.f(fx) <<< this is just a function that takes a function f and a function x, then calls f with f called with x
20:41:55 <oklopol> so lambda f: lambda x: f(f(x))
20:42:16 <oklopol> takes a function f, returns a function that takes a function x and then calls f with f(x)
20:42:59 <oklopol> this is one way to define numbers in lambda calculus
20:43:29 <oklopol> a number N in lambda calculus is a function that takes two functions and calls the first one with the latter one N times
20:43:36 -!- tusho|away has changed nick to tusho.
20:44:54 <oklopol> bad explanation, better look at what tusho said there
20:45:30 <tusho> oklopol: AnMaster thinks in c
20:45:36 <tusho> at present he has no chance of getting LC
20:45:41 <tusho> it sjust a fact
20:45:42 <tusho>  :)
20:45:51 <oklopol> of course he can get it
20:46:01 <oklopol> i could easily explain it irl
20:46:28 <tusho> oklopol: except AnMaster generally doesn't grasp anything non-imperative
20:46:31 <tusho> I've tried to explain lc
20:46:32 <tusho> several times
20:57:35 <tusho> a
20:57:35 <tusho> a
20:57:36 <tusho> a
21:02:12 <tusho> a
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21:05:55 <AnMaster> sorry was afk, had to mend a broken printer
21:16:49 <AnMaster> tusho, about that w3c library, seems it only does normalizing urls
21:16:54 <AnMaster> not comparsion
21:16:58 <tusho> AnMaster: uhh
21:17:01 <AnMaster> maybe comparsion is somewhere else in libwww
21:17:03 <AnMaster> not same file
21:17:06 <tusho> compare = string_equality . normalize
21:17:08 <tusho> duh
21:17:08 <tusho> :P
21:17:13 <AnMaster> tusho, not 100%
21:17:17 <tusho> AnMaster: yes...
21:17:29 <AnMaster> what about uri protocol differences
21:17:33 <AnMaster> some have local rules
21:17:36 <tusho> hmm, okay the
21:17:37 <tusho> n
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21:52:17 <Mony> bye
21:52:20 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire...").
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22:02:33 <AnMaster> night
22:06:55 -!- SimonRC has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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23:07:49 -!- dogface has changed nick to ihope.
23:07:55 -!- ihope has changed nick to dogface.
23:35:29 <tusho> AnMaster-logread-note:
23:35:34 <tusho> Funge-108 is based on Funge-98 (Pressey, 1998) that is curre
23:35:35 <tusho> -> which is
23:35:41 <tusho> The Funge-98 (Pressey, 1998) standard got se1
23:35:43 <tusho> -> has se
23:35:54 <tusho> This document will be released under either CC-by-sa2 or GFDL when it is finished. As it is not
23:35:55 <tusho> yet decided on this document is currently under “copyright” however.
23:36:03 <tusho> -> if you want ESO standardisation use CC-pd
23:36:16 <tusho> will likely have more comments later
23:38:22 -!- olsner has joined.
23:38:29 * tusho ponders what a fractional shiftwidth would look like
23:38:34 <tusho> Specifically, pi.
23:38:41 <tusho> Presumably it'd start off with three spaces.
23:40:09 <olsner> and then approx. 1/7th of a column? it's just a matter of allowing non-integer indents, and approximating to the nearest pixel should probably be acceptable?
23:40:38 <tusho> olsner: Wouldn't it go 3, 3.1, etc?
23:40:51 <tusho> Or would it really be 3, .01, .004 - because that'd be quite unusable, obviously
23:42:06 <olsner> I thought you meant tabstops at 3.14, 6.28, 9.42 etc
23:42:42 <tusho> ah ofc
23:45:22 <tusho> olsner: it actually works quite well
23:46:20 <tusho> olsner: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1160950 <- the line feels natural
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23:53:02 <tusho> anyone have thoughts?

2008-08-11:

00:13:27 * dogface settles
00:14:17 <dogface> What's a shiftwidth?
00:15:01 <dogface> Why does it indent by 2 in one place and 4 in another?
00:15:29 <olsner> dogface: rounding error, it's really indented by 3.14 in every step :P
00:16:31 <dogface> Indenting by 2 in one place and 4 in another seems a weird way to do it, as there aren't many ways to round 3.14 and get 2.
00:16:55 <tusho> dogface: shiftwidth = how much you indent each time
00:17:00 <tusho> shiftwidth*0,shiftwidth*1,etc
00:17:05 <tusho> so you indent 3 spaces, then 6 etc
00:17:07 <tusho> if shiftwidth=pi
00:17:53 <dogface> 3.14, 6.28, 9.42, 12.56, 15.70, 18.84, 21.98, 25.12, etc.
00:17:59 <tusho> dogface: exactly
00:18:05 <tusho> obviously, you have to round it to actually be able to indent :P
00:18:24 <dogface> Round those and you get 3, 6, 9, 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, etc. The differences are 3, 3, 3, 4, 3, 3, 3, 4 there.
00:18:30 <dogface> I see no 2.
00:18:36 <tusho> dogface: I agree.
00:18:43 <tusho> I was just answering 'what's a shiftwidth'
00:19:15 * dogface suddenly creates a string of length 22 with 7 periods roughly evenly-spaced
00:20:51 <dogface> Hmm, I'm sure there was a nice Euclidean-algorithm type way of doing that.
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00:25:06 <dogface> Okay, so 7/22 is 1/4 + 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 (for unconventional definitions of +), 1/4 is 1/3 + 0/1, 1/3 is 1/2 + 0/1, and 1/2 is 1/1 + 0/1.
00:25:32 <adu> hi
00:25:34 <dogface> Ello.
00:25:35 <tusho> hi
00:25:43 <oklopol> dogface: drawing bresenham lines?
00:25:50 <dogface> oklopol: possibly. I don't know what those are.
00:26:02 <oklopol> well drawing a line on a discrete grid
00:26:27 <dogface> Quite likely, in fact. If the Bresenham line-drawing algorithm is related to the Euclidean algorithm in any way, gimme. :-)
00:26:46 <oklopol> i have no idea what's happening here, what's the euclidean algorithm?
00:26:48 <adu> wusup?
00:27:01 <dogface> So, I guess "   .  .  .  .  .  .  .  ." is quite satisfactory, really.
00:27:12 <dogface> Satisfactory but boring.
00:27:27 <oklopol> i see that as " . . . . . . ."
00:27:28 * dogface yawns dramatically
00:27:42 <oklopol> although with one more .
00:27:53 <dogface> "...|..|..|..|..|..|..|"
00:28:08 * dogface does the square root of 2 instead
00:28:28 <dogface> ...its reciprocal, rather.
00:28:44 <oklopol> reciprocal?
00:28:51 <dogface> The reciprocal of the square root of 2.
00:29:24 <oklopol> rightirght
00:29:32 <Sgeo> What about it?
00:29:42 <adu> v/2?
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00:30:25 <dogface> Sgeo: I'm making a string out of . and | where the length is about sqrt(2) times the number of |
00:30:30 <dogface> Sounds fun, I'm sure.
00:31:13 <oklopol> is this for your thue project
00:31:21 <dogface> Not at all... yes.
00:31:37 <oklopol> let me rephrase
00:31:38 <oklopol> is this for your thue project
00:31:39 <oklopol> ?
00:31:54 <dogface> In theory, yes.
00:31:58 <oklopol> okay
00:32:33 <dogface> Squaring fractions in my head could get difficult.
00:32:37 * dogface shrugs alarmedly
00:33:04 <oklopol> why would it get difficult?
00:33:10 <adu> dogface: why?
00:33:13 <oklopol> you don't even have to gcd em
00:33:28 <dogface> oklopol: they could get big after a little while.
00:33:37 <dogface> adu: why am I making those strings?
00:33:50 <adu> yes
00:34:12 <adu> is it for divisibility purposes?
00:34:18 <adu> like international paper sizes?
00:34:50 <dogface> For fun.
00:34:54 <adu> o
00:35:12 <dogface> Strings where the characters are as evenly spaced as possible are aesthetically pleasing, you know.
00:35:19 <dogface> Great Gadsby, I've got it! Maybe.
00:35:44 <adu> if you want to do something for fun you should design an OS
00:36:00 <dogface> Too difficult.
00:36:17 <dogface> If it has more a than b, get rid of all the a and it should still be evenly spaced.
00:36:55 <Sgeo> No new Freefall yet
00:37:48 <adu> i think if i were to write an OS it would be like BRiX
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00:39:28 <dogface_> An OS would be too difficult. :-P
00:41:30 <adu> dogface_: that depends
00:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | !garble Yay! It works!.
00:43:14 <adu> dogface: so what about a command-line tool?
00:44:38 <adu> dogface: what about a parser for your own programming language?
00:45:23 <adu> dogface: or a super-optimizing 2,5-Turing compiler?
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00:46:46 <adu> one of these has got to be easy
00:49:26 <dogface_> I'll work on optimizing.
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00:50:02 <dogface_> Everyone Knows that compiling interpretation is the ultimate form of artificial intelligence.
00:54:07 <adu> interpretation?
00:54:55 -!- dogface has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:59:39 <dogface_> Yep.
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01:35:48 <oerjan> !garble Yay! It doesn't work!
01:35:56 <oerjan> bah, humbug
01:55:07 <dogface_> Buh, hambag.
01:55:16 <dogface_> How fun.
01:55:45 <oerjan> boh, hwmbwg
02:00:51 <oerjan> http://www.inthekitchen.co.nz/tips/html/Ham.htm
02:02:21 <oerjan> no hits for hwm-bwg :(
02:49:15 <dogface_> Dwd yww knww thwt w ws w vwwwl tww?
02:49:36 <dogface_> Wnd "tww" ws prwnwwncwd thw swmw wwy ws "too", wvwn.
02:52:37 <oerjan> qwwtw sw
02:53:05 <oerjan> thwsw frwwkw wwlsh!
02:53:17 <puzzlet> wwll yww stwp thwt
02:53:30 <oerjan> mwybw
03:06:53 <oklopol> lwl
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06:41:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i've never heard of optimizing a language in that same language..
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06:51:57 <psygnisfive> oklopol! :o
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08:37:38 <AnMaster> <tusho> The Funge-98 (Pressey, 1998) standard got se1
08:37:39 <AnMaster> <tusho> -> has se <-- can't find that with search
08:38:02 <AnMaster> <tusho> This document will be released under either CC-by-sa2 or GFDL when it is finished. As it is not <-- C. Pressy suggested one of those two, I would need to ask him for other ones
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09:20:30 <asiekierka> can i do an optbot
09:20:30 <optbot> asiekierka: is !
09:20:40 <asiekierka> is? you mean, yes?
09:20:41 <asiekierka> Okay!
09:20:44 <asiekierka> uh...
09:20:52 <asiekierka> but im scared about doing it, optoot
09:20:55 <asiekierka> but im scared about doing it, optbot*
09:20:56 <optbot> asiekierka: hm?
09:21:13 <asiekierka> Yeah, optbot, totally scared. i can't do an optbot since someone will punch me. IN THE FACE.
09:21:13 <optbot> asiekierka: One thing I was planning to do differently was to use the lower 2 bits of each RGB, to give 6 bits to work with.  This way it's harder to see the program, but it's still faintly there
09:21:23 <asiekierka> A good idea, optbot.
09:21:23 <optbot> asiekierka: my decision is that the world is already good enough without a 1-symbol language
09:21:43 <asiekierka> Don't agree. We need a 1-symbol language. But the only way to have it is unary, and unary is bad.
09:21:50 <asiekierka> So, optbot, what are you doing?
09:21:50 <optbot> asiekierka: i've tried to keep as close to the spirit as possible.
09:21:55 <asiekierka> Yayz, optbot
09:21:55 <optbot> asiekierka:   #          ## #  #   ## #  #                  #####
09:22:03 <asiekierka> Uh... What was that, optbot?
09:22:04 <optbot> asiekierka: I'm still not sure what that does.
09:22:22 <asiekierka> Oh, ok, optbot. What else can you tell me?
09:22:23 <optbot> asiekierka: write a parser for it and i'll learn it fully :)
09:22:29 <asiekierka> For what, optbot
09:22:29 <optbot> asiekierka: if I ever want to kill someone off, I'll send them this computer as a gift
09:22:48 <asiekierka> Oh wait, optbot. I got it, also, don't change the topic, please.
09:22:48 <optbot> asiekierka: where [] is a negative list
09:22:53 <asiekierka> Maybe, optbot.
09:22:53 <optbot> asiekierka: I find pointers in C rather simple most time, unless you get something mad like: char **** blah[][] (or something like that, saw it once, horrible)
09:23:11 <asiekierka> Uh.... what? i dont get it, optbot
09:23:11 <optbot> asiekierka: Whiner.
09:23:22 <asiekierka> Lol. Optbot, you are a whiner too.
09:23:22 <optbot> asiekierka: then it'll probably get rather esoteric
09:23:29 <asiekierka> Possibly, optbot.
09:23:29 <optbot> asiekierka: ;)
09:23:35 <asiekierka> Yay an emoticon, optbot
09:23:36 <optbot> asiekierka: 3
09:23:44 <asiekierka> optbot: 3? What the 3 means?
09:23:44 <optbot> asiekierka: also you can use /dev/udp for a udp connection.
09:23:49 <asiekierka> optbot: Uh... okay
09:23:49 <optbot> asiekierka: ah
09:23:57 <asiekierka> optbot: uh ah, uh ah, boom de yaya
09:23:57 <optbot> asiekierka: oklofok, concentrate.
09:24:05 <asiekierka> optbot: Wait, what?
09:24:06 <optbot> asiekierka: okoping
09:24:13 <asiekierka> optbot: ?!?
09:24:13 <optbot> asiekierka: you need to bind a key to that to be able to use it without typing the whole thing
09:24:19 <asiekierka> optbot: Agreed
09:24:19 <optbot> asiekierka: Razor-X does.
09:24:25 <asiekierka> optbot: Does what? Agree?
09:24:26 <optbot> asiekierka: of course, you can't display it or send it to irc...
09:24:31 <asiekierka> optbot: :(
09:24:31 <optbot> asiekierka: there are reactive haskell gui libraries
09:24:35 <asiekierka> optbot: ok...
09:24:35 <optbot> asiekierka: at least you'd shut up
09:24:45 <asiekierka> Okay. With that, i agree. Centrainly.
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09:32:26 <asiekierka> I just made a little esolang
09:32:34 <asiekierka> It's BF with 4 commands added
09:32:43 <asiekierka> First is @, a starting point defined (is it a command? Hardly)
09:33:08 <asiekierka> Second and third are / and \, mirrors (When you hit a mirror, you bounce off, and the mirror rotates)
09:33:23 <asiekierka> Fourth is D, a deflector (reverses program flow, like, if you were going down, you now go up
09:34:50 <asiekierka>  \ \/\/\/ /
09:34:51 <asiekierka>    ++++++
09:34:51 <asiekierka> x/ ++++++
09:34:51 <asiekierka>    ++++++
09:34:51 <asiekierka>  @-\/\/\D
09:34:53 <asiekierka> Oh wait
09:34:57 <asiekierka> it missed a line
09:35:00 <asiekierka> i will just nopaste it
09:35:51 <asiekierka> or not
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10:43:14 <asiekierka> optbot: hi!
10:43:14 <optbot> asiekierka: long time ago i coded in pascal ;p
10:43:18 <asiekierka> optbot: I did too
10:43:18 <optbot> asiekierka: !help
10:43:25 <asiekierka> optbot: What do you need?
10:43:25 <optbot> asiekierka: heh... I'm nowhere near familiar enough with C to attempt transforming a language into it.
10:43:39 <asiekierka> optbot: Oh... i see. Sorry, can't help ya with it.
10:43:39 <optbot> asiekierka: mayb.
10:43:45 <asiekierka> optbot: Agreed, maybe i can
10:43:45 <optbot> asiekierka: I wrote one with single stepping in C and got bored :)
10:44:13 <asiekierka> optbot: Oh, so you can!
10:44:13 <optbot> asiekierka: Penis.
10:44:20 <asiekierka> Optbot: :(
10:44:20 <optbot> asiekierka: or bsmntbombdood fire up bsmnt_bot with bf, please
10:44:25 <asiekierka> Optbot: ???
10:44:26 <optbot> asiekierka: exactly
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11:52:20 <asiekierka> :/
11:52:21 <asiekierka> Hi
11:53:35 <tusho> hi asiekierka
11:54:02 <tusho> asie is your nick pronounced "I see key err ka"
11:54:03 <asiekierka> I had a quite intelligent chat with optbot
11:54:03 <optbot> asiekierka: Is it because you can has cheezburger that you came to me?
11:54:13 <tusho> heh
11:54:30 <asiekierka> Well, not
11:54:33 <asiekierka> Ashiekierkae
11:54:36 <tusho> asiekierka: don't be shocked - he's actually this guy I trapped in my basement
11:54:44 <tusho> like random lines could be that lucid :P
11:55:11 <asiekierka> so how can he answer in 2 miliseconds
11:55:31 <tusho> asiekierka: sold his soul to the devil
11:55:33 <tusho> 00:38:02 <AnMaster> <tusho> This document will be released under either CC-by-sa2 or GFDL when it is finished. As it is not <-- C. Pressy suggested one of those two, I would need to ask him for other ones
11:55:40 <tusho> i don't see why chris pressey determines what licenses you can use
11:55:48 <asiekierka> I wonder...
11:56:04 <asiekierka> ...is making a portable Brainf**k interpreter and editor feasible?
11:56:14 <tusho> AnMaster: change 'standard got se'
11:56:14 <tusho> to
11:56:16 <tusho> 'has se'
11:56:23 <tusho> asiekierka: Very feasable, very uninteresting.
11:56:33 <asiekierka> I will possibly use it
11:56:35 <asiekierka> xD
11:56:37 <asiekierka> Why?
11:56:48 <asiekierka> Imagine if I'm learning in school about esolangs
11:56:49 <asiekierka> or somewhere
11:56:50 <tusho> because it's just an interpreter and an editor put together
11:56:53 <tusho> oh, I see, portable
11:56:55 <asiekierka> Yeah
11:56:57 <asiekierka> Yes
11:56:58 <asiekierka> portable.
11:56:59 <tusho> uh, just use notepad
11:57:06 <tusho> and compile an .exe or whatever of a BF interp
11:57:07 <asiekierka> a real notepad?
11:57:09 <tusho> and put it on a floppy
11:57:10 <asiekierka> i mean
11:57:11 <asiekierka> portable
11:57:13 <tusho> asiekierka: start->run->notepad
11:57:16 <asiekierka> as in, a portable device
11:57:20 <asiekierka> I don't want to drag a laptop with me
11:57:27 <AnMaster> tusho, what section, a search doesn't show any "got" in the document
11:57:29 <tusho> asiekierka: oh, I thought you meant on school computers
11:57:41 <asiekierka> A portable device with a NATIVE BF cpu
11:57:43 <asiekierka> :)
11:57:55 <tusho> AnMaster: i have funge108.pdf which was downloaded 7 july
11:58:03 <asiekierka> :)
11:58:06 <tusho> 50 pages
11:58:20 <AnMaster> tusho, what section is this got in?
11:58:27 <asiekierka> I will probably add 8 megabytes or so of flash memory
11:58:30 <asiekierka> 1MB/slot
11:58:42 <asiekierka> Also, 30000 slots
11:58:49 <asiekierka> You will be able to toggle whether 8- or 16-bit
11:58:50 <AnMaster> 50 pages? 65 here... if you check page numbers in the document (last page) it says 59
11:59:13 <asiekierka> 30000 memory slots
11:59:15 <AnMaster> tusho, and well 7 july is a bit old
11:59:17 <tusho> AnMaster: page ii
11:59:17 <asiekierka> 1MB/slot for BF programs
11:59:21 <asiekierka> 30000 for uh
11:59:24 <asiekierka> the memory
11:59:25 <tusho> The Funge-98 (Pressey, 1998) standard got several unclear corner cases1 and is also missing
11:59:25 <tusho> definitions for non-binar y funges (like ternar y ones). The Funge-98 standard is also written in
11:59:25 <tusho> an essay style rather than like a standard document. This makes the standard vague on several
11:59:25 <tusho> occasions and t
11:59:43 <AnMaster> tusho, draft 1.3?
12:00:16 <asiekierka> So i will need 64kb of RAM, a BF cpu, 8MB flash memory (7 slots+firmware), a... 256x192 or 320x200 screen that's small but readable, and maybe i'll add a serial I/O and functions to support it
12:00:21 <asiekierka> Or nope
12:00:21 <asiekierka> USB.
12:00:26 <AnMaster> because the single got there was I fixed some time ago
12:00:30 <asiekierka> And file reading functions
12:00:31 <AnMaster> when ais pointed it out
12:00:32 <tusho> No idea An.
12:00:34 <tusho> *An
12:00:35 <tusho> er
12:00:37 <tusho> AnMaster
12:00:37 <AnMaster> tusho, on first page
12:00:43 <tusho> AnMaster: well, link me to an updated version
12:00:46 <AnMaster> http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/
12:00:55 <AnMaster> is always the last draft
12:01:10 <asiekierka> File reading will be possible through ,. while USB will use a direct connection
12:01:15 <tusho> AnMaster: self modifying -> self-modifying
12:01:21 <tusho> same page as the god was
12:01:33 <AnMaster> thanks
12:01:34 <tusho> it's usefulness -> its usefulness
12:01:35 <AnMaster> fixed locally
12:01:45 <asiekierka> As in, : will write the current cell's value to the PC, and ; will input a value from the PC
12:01:58 <AnMaster> tusho, how does it's and its differ exactly
12:02:03 <tusho> AnMaster: it's -> it is
12:02:09 <tusho> "it is usefulness"
12:02:24 <AnMaster> hmm, tusho's but its?
12:02:28 <tusho> AnMaster: yes.
12:02:29 <AnMaster> then that make no sense :P
12:02:35 <tusho> *then that makes no sense
12:02:39 <AnMaster> tusho, illogical, but ok
12:02:39 <tusho> also, English makes no sense
12:02:41 <tusho> deal with it
12:02:43 <tusho> :)
12:02:51 <tusho> AnMaster:
12:02:52 <tusho> Funge-108 is based on Funge-98 (Pressey, 1998) which is currently the official standard for
12:02:52 <tusho> Funges. Funge-98 has evolved from Funge-97, which was a generalisation of Befunge-97, which
12:02:52 <tusho> was an improvement over Befunge-96, which was an update of the original Befunge-93 (Pressey,
12:02:52 <tusho> 1993) language definition.
12:02:59 <tusho> 'Funge-98 evolved from'
12:03:04 <tusho> would be more natural
12:03:30 <asiekierka> also, i may make a support for a PS/2 keyboard slot
12:04:01 <tusho> also AnMaster CC-by-nc-sa would be even worse as it'd greatly hamper writing a commercial befunge interp AnMaster
12:04:03 <tusho> i believe
12:04:16 <AnMaster> tusho, I believe that part was copied from Funge-98 standard
12:04:19 <tusho> ah, OK
12:04:28 <tusho> well, AnMaster
12:04:30 <tusho> 'has' is present tense
12:04:38 <tusho> it's stating what this, funge-98, has evolved from
12:04:44 <tusho> but you should refer to it in past tense
12:04:47 <tusho> as it's already happened
12:04:49 <AnMaster> well yes
12:04:51 <AnMaster> fixed
12:05:08 <AnMaster> tusho, remember I started out with Funge-98, then reformatted and rewrote parts
12:05:15 <tusho> urd
12:05:16 <tusho> *yes
12:05:32 <AnMaster> urd, nice typo hehe
12:05:53 <AnMaster> tusho, btw I wrote a funge-like stack in erlang
12:05:57 <tusho> AnMaster:
12:05:58 <tusho> "In two dimensions, we have the following terminology: "
12:05:59 <tusho> ->
12:06:09 <AnMaster> tusho, yes, copied from Funge-98 again
12:06:16 <tusho> "The following terminology is used for two-dimensional funges:"
12:06:21 <AnMaster> good thanks
12:06:21 <tusho> or something
12:06:27 <AnMaster> I wanted to get rid of "we" everywhere
12:06:33 <AnMaster> didn't manage yet in all places
12:06:59 <tusho> [[Should we replace the word finger print in Funge-108 to cause less confusion? A finger print may
12:06:59 <tusho> in Funge-98 either refer to the extension or the string that is used to load that extension. ]]
12:07:04 <tusho> fingerprint is the actual fingerprint
12:07:08 <tusho> the string to load it is now the fingerprint's URI :P
12:07:18 <tusho> so instead of ( taking a fingerprint, it takes a fingerprint's URI
12:07:22 <tusho> if you wanted terminology for that :p
12:07:32 <AnMaster> tusho, I need to refer to the old style 4 letter stuff
12:07:35 <AnMaster> in some places
12:07:43 <AnMaster> that was what it was about
12:07:43 <tusho> AnMaster: legacy fingerprint
12:07:45 <tusho> well
12:07:47 <tusho> no
12:07:50 <tusho> AnMaster: legacy fingerprint identifier
12:07:56 <AnMaster> ah makes sense
12:08:28 <AnMaster> "In Funge-98 the unique ID mentioned above was a 4 letter string, which we refer to as legacy fingerprint identifier."
12:08:29 <AnMaster> then
12:08:55 <tusho> AnMaster: 4 character string
12:09:00 <tusho> well
12:09:01 <tusho> AnMaster: no
12:09:02 <AnMaster> right
12:09:03 <tusho> 4 byte string
12:09:07 <tusho> character = unicode
12:09:16 <AnMaster> tusho, it could be more in 98
12:09:17 <AnMaster> or less
12:09:19 <AnMaster> technically
12:09:31 <tusho> AnMaster: so ... "was an arbitary string"?
12:09:32 <AnMaster> if you had a 64-bit funge you could do 8 chars
12:09:38 <AnMaster> but no more
12:09:39 <tusho> ah.
12:09:40 <tusho> okay then
12:09:49 <tusho> AnMaster: well, it's not characters
12:09:52 <tusho> it's a variable number of bytes
12:09:53 <AnMaster> tusho, however all fingerprints I know of are 4 bytes
12:10:03 <tusho> AnMaster: find some way to refer to that :P
12:10:10 <tusho> (variable for interp)
12:10:36 <AnMaster> "In Funge-98 the unique ID mentioned above was a number, often represented as a 4 byte string, which we refer to as legacy fingerprint identifier."
12:10:40 <AnMaster> maybe like that?
12:10:52 <AnMaster> because technically, all it is is a number
12:11:05 <AnMaster> and FPSP or whatever is then bit shifted
12:11:06 <tusho> well, ok
12:11:09 <AnMaster> to fit into that number
12:11:17 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean
12:11:33 <AnMaster> each letter is simply bit shifted
12:11:37 <tusho> http://www.google.com/search?q=consbreastution
12:11:40 <tusho> Clbuttic.
12:11:47 <AnMaster> tusho, eh?
12:11:50 <AnMaster> is this related to funge?
12:11:56 <tusho> AnMaster: no.
12:12:41 <AnMaster> wtf is "consbreastution"
12:12:51 <tusho> AnMaster: Swear filtering gone wrong
12:12:56 <tusho> (Classic -> Clbuttic)
12:12:58 <tusho> (cl - ass - ic)
12:13:05 <tusho> cons - tit - ution - consbreatution
12:13:23 <AnMaster> oh my
12:16:08 <AnMaster> tusho, http://rafb.net/p/u1LNAE18.html
12:16:11 <AnMaster> what do you think?
12:16:26 <tusho> AnMaster: looks pretty idiomatic to me
12:16:33 <AnMaster> tusho, meaning?
12:16:39 <tusho> AnMaster: good
12:16:42 <AnMaster> thanks
12:16:42 <tusho> though, I think you acn do
12:16:46 <tusho> [H1,H2|T]
12:16:51 <tusho> you can do that in prolog at least
12:16:52 <tusho> I blieve
12:16:54 <AnMaster> tusho, hmm. will try
12:16:54 <tusho> *believe
12:17:12 <AnMaster> ./fstack.erl:36: syntax error before: ']'
12:17:12 <AnMaster> ./fstack.erl:3: function swap/1 undefined
12:17:12 <AnMaster> nop
12:17:37 <tusho> AnMaster: hm
12:17:45 <tusho> AnMaster: try
12:17:49 <tusho> [H1|H2|T]
12:17:52 <AnMaster> tusho, I'm sure there is some way, I'm still learning the language after all
12:17:54 <tusho> i don't think you need to nest the []s
12:18:16 <AnMaster> wait what
12:18:23 <AnMaster> it works for
12:18:24 <AnMaster> dup([H|T]) ->
12:18:24 <AnMaster> [H, H|T].
12:18:30 <tusho> that's constructing
12:18:32 * AnMaster checks if he made some typo in the other
12:18:32 <tusho> not pattern matching
12:18:33 <tusho> :P
12:18:35 <AnMaster> ah true
12:18:40 <tusho> though they should be the same
12:18:42 <tusho> so maybe an erlang flaw
12:18:52 <tusho> AnMaster: anyway, does [H1|H2|T] work
12:19:11 <AnMaster> tusho, not a flaw, well yes, an unmatched ]
12:19:12 <AnMaster> ;P
12:19:20 <tusho> heh
12:19:20 <AnMaster> , works
12:19:22 <AnMaster> | doesn't
12:19:35 <tusho> btw, AnMaster
12:19:42 <tusho> i think idiomatic erlang doesn't put spaces after ,
12:19:44 <tusho> {T,H}
12:19:49 <tusho> [0,0]
12:19:51 <tusho> i don't know for certain though
12:19:53 <tusho> but I seem to recall that
12:20:04 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe, I seen both in "Programming Erlang" iirc
12:20:14 <tusho> ok
12:20:21 <AnMaster> actually, I can replace _T with _
12:20:28 <AnMaster> as I don't need to bother about the value there
12:20:32 <tusho> i've always been interested in erlang because of its insane stuff
12:20:33 <tusho> you can:
12:20:37 <AnMaster> so I can just use _ the anonymous variable
12:20:43 <tusho> - write a networked server just enough to let people connect via telnet and hang forever
12:20:44 <tusho> and then
12:20:48 <tusho> you can write the code
12:20:50 <tusho> and hot-swap it in realtime
12:20:55 <AnMaster> tusho, yes indeed
12:20:56 <tusho> without the network server shutting down
12:21:10 <tusho> and you can keep going until you have a fully working telnet game, with the original people still connected
12:21:12 <AnMaster> tusho, I plan to write a small Befunge-93 interpreter in erlang
12:21:16 <tusho> which is totally awesome
12:21:23 <AnMaster> would be great for learning sequential erlang
12:21:30 <AnMaster> not very concurrent though
12:22:23 <tusho> AnMaster: ooh, idea for a simple befunge fingerprint
12:22:23 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/XmkAAv98.html
12:22:25 <AnMaster> new version
12:22:34 <tusho> 'FORK'. It has a command, split
12:22:36 <tusho> you can specify
12:22:38 <tusho> well
12:22:40 <tusho> you give it a direction
12:22:44 <tusho> (up,down,left,right)
12:22:46 <tusho> and then fork
12:22:51 <tusho> and a duplicate IP
12:22:54 <tusho> spawns from the fork location
12:22:58 <tusho> in that direction
12:23:02 <tusho> and there's another instruction
12:23:04 <tusho> D
12:23:08 <tusho> which destroys the current IP
12:23:12 <tusho> (exits the program if there's only one)
12:23:22 <tusho> maybe if two IPs hit each other they merge
12:23:23 <tusho> dunno
12:23:52 <AnMaster> um
12:24:00 <AnMaster> tusho, you know about t and @ right?
12:24:03 <AnMaster> in concurrent funge
12:24:05 <tusho> nope
12:24:06 <tusho> :D
12:24:36 <AnMaster> tusho, they are exactly that, with one difference, the ip split at t always start off in opposite direction of the original ip
12:24:47 <tusho> AnMaster: darn, I thought I was being amazing there
12:25:06 <AnMaster> tusho, it is part of standard funge, well optional extension, but not even a fingerprint
12:25:16 <AnMaster> also @ will do exactly what you said in concurrent funge
12:25:24 <AnMaster> tusho, and yes cfunge does concurrent funge
12:25:34 <tusho> AnMaster: you should write a cfunge thing that on startup launches an SDL or whatever window, and then shows you the IPs travelling around fungespace
12:25:36 * AnMaster loves the outcome of this idea of tusho
12:25:38 <tusho> (as arrows above the text)
12:25:50 <asiekierka> I want to do a PRNG in BF later
12:25:52 <AnMaster> tusho, could be done with that frontend protocol idea I had
12:25:53 <tusho> (probably with a configurable delay so you can actually see it)
12:25:58 <tusho> but that would be fun
12:25:59 <asiekierka> I must really make a BF tutorial
12:26:05 <tusho> you could make befunge works of art
12:26:05 <tusho> :P
12:26:10 <AnMaster> haha
12:26:11 <asiekierka> but i cant really teach stuff
12:26:20 <AnMaster> asiekierka, as for prng, quite simple
12:26:34 <AnMaster> you just need to nest a lot of ?
12:26:46 <AnMaster> and make sure all numbers have the same number of ? to reach them
12:26:58 <AnMaster> some sort of tree structure
12:27:14 <AnMaster> all ? on a given level need to have the same amount of valid exit directions
12:27:25 <tusho> AnMaster
12:27:27 <AnMaster> probably 3,
12:27:28 <tusho> he is talking about brainfuck
12:27:31 <AnMaster> oh
12:27:31 <AnMaster> wait
12:27:32 <AnMaster> right
12:27:35 <AnMaster> BF
12:27:37 <AnMaster> = befunge
12:27:39 <AnMaster> in my mind
12:27:40 <AnMaster> heh
12:27:42 <AnMaster> at least now atm
12:27:45 <tusho> and only your mind
12:27:45 <tusho> :P
12:27:55 <AnMaster> true
12:28:00 <AnMaster> in brainfuck
12:28:01 <AnMaster> that is harder
12:28:06 <asiekierka> Depends on which one
12:28:15 <asiekierka> Also
12:28:24 <AnMaster> tusho, does haskell have a RNG?
12:28:27 <asiekierka> i want to make a BF Function Library
12:28:28 <asiekierka> as in
12:28:31 <tusho> AnMaster: of course
12:28:33 <asiekierka> you put up your own small functions
12:28:35 <tusho> haskell is a real-world langauge
12:28:39 <tusho> there are companies using it
12:28:39 <asiekierka> and then others can use it
12:28:41 <tusho> webapps made with it...
12:28:46 <AnMaster> tusho, but that can't be very functional
12:28:48 <AnMaster> a rng
12:28:53 <AnMaster> it has external input
12:28:57 <AnMaster> so a monad?
12:28:58 <tusho> AnMaster: it's in the IO monad
12:29:02 <tusho> well
12:29:02 <AnMaster> ah
12:29:04 <tusho> technically it's not
12:29:09 <tusho> the actual prng algo is functional
12:29:16 <tusho> but you need to initially get the glob of data within IO
12:29:24 <tusho> if you gave it a constant seed it would be purely functional
12:29:32 <AnMaster> tusho, is it a secure PRNG?
12:29:38 <tusho> AnMaster: beats me
12:29:41 <tusho> probably implementation defined
12:29:47 <AnMaster> ah well
12:30:22 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway for funge space... erlang got two forms of modifiable memory, the process dictionary, and ETS tables
12:30:31 <tusho> AnMaster: uh, dude
12:30:35 <tusho> pass around fungespace functionally
12:30:35 <AnMaster> ETS is used for the mnesia database engine so...
12:30:37 <tusho> :p
12:30:43 <tusho> it'd be slow but idiomatic
12:30:45 <AnMaster> tusho, may be too slow for mycology ;P
12:30:50 <tusho> AnMaster: you said befunge-93
12:30:50 <AnMaster> but probably ok for befunge93
12:30:57 <AnMaster> yeah
12:30:58 <tusho> besides
12:31:01 <tusho> you ran mycology on bashfunge.
12:31:14 <AnMaster> tusho, well I did, but it took a few minutes for the 93 part
12:31:15 <AnMaster> :P
12:31:52 <AnMaster> but yes tail recursive function to loop over funge space is probably best
12:32:04 <AnMaster> with a passed around state
12:32:25 <AnMaster> tusho, one issue, I could not do funge-98 in erlang, but I could do 108
12:32:33 <AnMaster> reason? all numbers are BIGNUM
12:32:43 <AnMaster> y in 98 doesn't have a way to say that in cell size
12:32:46 <AnMaster> while it does in 108
12:33:16 <AnMaster> wait... I could use binary values I think...
12:33:24 <AnMaster> like <<byte, byte, byte, byte>>
12:34:03 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway tail recursion in erlang is fast
12:34:07 <AnMaster> so not an issue really
12:34:15 <AnMaster> won't actually pass the state around then I think
12:34:24 <AnMaster> but of course new copies will be made
12:35:06 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway Befunge-93 is easy to represent, I don't need any hash even
12:35:09 <AnMaster> just 25x80
12:35:12 <tusho> [12:32:27] <AnMaster> tusho, one issue, I could not do funge-98 in erlang, but I could do 108
12:35:14 <tusho> just manually wrap em
12:35:16 <AnMaster> means an array of array
12:35:27 <AnMaster> tusho, or <<I:32>>
12:35:33 <AnMaster> to extract a 32-bit integer
12:35:37 <AnMaster> using the bit syntax
12:35:55 <oklopol> use the power of your imagination
12:35:55 <AnMaster> decode_header(<<2#11111111111:11,B:2,C:2,_D:1,E:4,F:2,G:1,Bits:9>>) ->
12:36:01 <AnMaster> that is used to extract a MPEG header
12:36:03 <AnMaster> in an example
12:36:29 <oklopol> erlang?
12:36:42 <AnMaster> oklopol, yep
12:36:43 <tusho> oklopol: yes
12:36:44 <AnMaster> <<?IP_VERSION:4, HLen:4, SrvcType:8, TotLen:16,
12:36:45 <AnMaster>   ID:16, Flgs:3, FragOff:13,
12:36:45 <AnMaster>   TTL:8, Proto:8, HdrChkSum:16,
12:36:45 <AnMaster>   SrcIP:32,
12:36:45 <AnMaster>   DestIP:32, RestDgram/binary>> when HLen >= 5, 4*HLen =< DgramSize
12:36:52 <AnMaster> ipv4 header
12:36:58 <tusho> AnMaster: hmm, some weird kind fof parser DSL?
12:37:06 <AnMaster> tusho, eh?
12:37:10 <AnMaster> now you lost me
12:37:11 <tusho> AnMaster: that << >>
12:37:17 <AnMaster> <<>> == binary
12:37:18 <tusho> dsl=domain specific langauge
12:37:20 <tusho> embedded 'little language'
12:37:25 <tusho> AnMaster: it seems to be a parser thing
12:37:29 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:37:32 <AnMaster> a very fast array of byte array
12:37:45 -!- oklopol has joined.
12:38:03 <AnMaster> tusho, http://rafb.net/p/MkZdl121.html
12:38:15 <tusho> ok
12:38:20 <AnMaster> tusho, and the things above was simply pattern matching of binaries
12:38:25 <tusho> ah I see
12:38:27 <AnMaster> very powerful the erlang pattern matching
12:38:28 <tusho> neat
12:38:40 <tusho> haskell's pattern matching is powerful too
12:38:47 <AnMaster> tusho, on bit level? ;)
12:38:59 <tusho> yes, if you stored it as a list of bits :P
12:39:19 <AnMaster> tusho, read the paste above, then read http://rafb.net/p/A0L2OX22.html
12:39:41 <tusho> yes
12:39:49 <AnMaster> also the odd &#64257; is the pastebin messing up on the unicode ligature fi
12:40:11 <oklopol> yeah we got that
12:40:30 <AnMaster> anyway very nice and powerful pattern matching
12:40:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, I'm learning erlang you see
12:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | write -> wrote.
12:41:32 <oklopol> hehe, read that as "i'm mislearning erlang"
12:41:42 * AnMaster slaps oklopol
12:41:46 <AnMaster> what did I do wrong?
12:41:54 <oklopol> you slapped me
12:41:58 <AnMaster> no
12:42:04 <AnMaster> as you said mislearn
12:42:07 <oklopol> yes you did!
12:42:14 <oklopol> 14:41… × AnMaster slaps oklopol <<< see, proof
12:42:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, I think this one is pretty idiomatic: http://rafb.net/p/XmkAAv98.html
12:42:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes, but....
12:42:23 <AnMaster> <oklopol> hehe, read that as "i'm mislearning erlang"
12:42:24 <AnMaster> * AnMaster slaps oklopol
12:43:48 <oklopol> looks okay
12:44:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, you know erlang?
12:46:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, if you do, I have a question for you, about how you would do one thing
12:47:10 <oklopol> i know some of it
12:47:19 <oklopol> i guess i know the basics
12:47:47 <AnMaster> oklopol, ok, would you use ETS or a passed around state if you implement Funge and need to pass around the funge space?
12:48:05 <AnMaster> it can be pretty large
12:48:19 <oklopol> i don't know what ets is
12:48:23 <oklopol> a mutable list?
12:48:34 <AnMaster> "ets and dets are two system modules that are used for efficient storage
12:48:34 <AnMaster> of large numbers of Erlang terms. ETS is short for Erlang term storage,
12:48:34 <AnMaster> and DETS is short for disk ets.
12:48:34 <AnMaster> "
12:48:36 <AnMaster> yes
12:48:39 <AnMaster> a fast mutable list
12:48:46 <AnMaster> a table
12:48:50 <oklopol> well definitely that one
12:48:56 <asiekierka> i wanted to do a BF quine contest
12:49:01 <asiekierka> on which the LARGEST quine wins
12:49:01 <AnMaster> oklopol, rather than a passed around state?
12:49:09 <asiekierka> So if you have a 64MB quine, you win, lol
12:49:14 <oklopol> asiekierka: that's quite trivial
12:49:20 <AnMaster> asiekierka, it is always possible to do a larger one
12:49:24 <asiekierka> i know
12:49:28 <asiekierka> but who makes the largest
12:49:30 <asiekierka> in 6 hours
12:49:32 <oklopol> :)
12:49:32 <AnMaster> you could probably write a program to generate one of x size
12:49:48 <AnMaster> and then have it generate several GB
12:49:53 <AnMaster> anyway I'm not taking part
12:50:06 <asiekierka> well, 6 hours, also, i don't allow any programs
12:50:15 <AnMaster> how would you know?
12:50:15 <oklopol> any programs?
12:50:16 <asiekierka> except the interpreter
12:50:23 <oklopol> hmm
12:50:32 <asiekierka> except an interprete
12:50:32 <asiekierka> r
12:50:33 <oklopol> what?
12:50:36 <AnMaster> how would you know someone didn't just upload the result of a generator he/she wrote
12:51:06 <asiekierka> Also, if i found out copies of the same quine (you copied a quine 100 times in a file and it worked), you are dq'ed
12:52:08 <oklopol> asiekierka: one way to make a bf quine is to first create something like numbers 1-8 at the beginning of the memory array
12:52:15 <oklopol> using ++++++>+++> etc
12:52:43 <oklopol> then, you write a latter part, that writes out these numbers, first once again in the form +++>++++>
12:53:04 <oklopol> then in the form of bf code, with some encoding of operations like 1->+, 2->-, 3->[ etx
12:53:20 <oklopol> now, you can bloat bf code in tons of ways, automatically
12:53:26 <oklopol> + -> +--++
12:53:29 <asiekierka> or
12:53:34 <asiekierka> instead of " "
12:53:44 <asiekierka> you can do +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-...
12:53:44 <oklopol> [...] -> [[...]] etc
12:53:51 <asiekierka> oh i see
12:54:02 <oklopol> now
12:54:13 <Tritonio_> but if you bloat the code by doing +-+-+ the quine won't be correct anymore. will it?
12:54:18 <oklopol> you can just make the first part, the generation of the raw data, to adapt to the quine
12:54:24 <oklopol> err
12:54:40 <asiekierka> Also, i wonder if a contest for a BF randon number generator will be good
12:54:42 <oklopol> to adapt to the code that writes out the raw data
12:54:49 <asiekierka> the code will need to be commented
12:55:11 <asiekierka> at least to a point where we know what does what
12:55:14 <tusho> AnMaster
12:55:15 <tusho> pass around state
12:55:23 <tusho> it's way more idiomatic, and you're just doing a toy interp besides
12:55:24 <oklopol> Tritonio_: well i'm just trying to show it's trivially reduced to the halting problem to figure out whether the program has been automatically randomized
12:55:54 <Tritonio_> ok. but is there a way to bloat a quine in a way that it still remains a quine??
12:56:06 <oklopol> Tritonio_: yes, the one i just explained
12:56:25 <Tritonio_> :-S I don't get it... (yet)
12:56:42 <oklopol> well
12:56:47 <oklopol> imagine a bf program
12:56:59 <oklopol> that is run with a memory array filled with numbers 1-8
12:57:13 <oklopol> it first iterates through all these numbers
12:57:19 <Tritonio_> it has to fill the array with these numberss right?
12:57:41 <asiekierka> also
12:57:43 <oklopol> and writes out +++> for 3 or +++++> for 5 etc
12:57:44 <AnMaster> tusho, hm
12:57:51 <asiekierka> i have something
12:57:53 <tusho> AnMaster: just do it :P
12:57:58 <asiekierka> A BF interpreter i made with a friend
12:57:58 <tusho> you need to learn thinking functionally anyway
12:58:01 <oklopol> Tritonio_: not yet, just imagine this part first.
12:58:08 <oklopol> unless you already got the whole thing
12:58:14 <Tritonio_> ok
12:58:15 <asiekierka> not only it's standalone, as in, you boot it from a floppy, it's also 100% asm and quite fast
12:58:17 <AnMaster> tusho, well doing tail recursive is pretty easy
12:58:25 <tusho> AnMaster: just do it
12:58:25 <tusho> :P
12:58:28 <tusho> befunge is trivial
12:58:30 <tusho> 936
12:58:31 <tusho> *93
12:58:36 <oklopol> anyway, after it's iterated through all the numbers, it returns to the beginning of the memory
12:58:45 <oklopol> and writes all the numbers again
12:58:47 <AnMaster> and I will need to pass around some state, like ip location, ip mode and such, anyway
12:58:50 <oklopol> this time as bf commands
12:59:07 <oklopol> so that 1 will become +, 2 becomes -, 5 becomes . etx
12:59:27 <oklopol> now, you can see once we have this program that writes the contents of the memory array out in this way
12:59:34 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> you can do +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-...
12:59:34 <AnMaster> <oklopol> [...] -> [[...]] etc
12:59:35 <AnMaster> err
12:59:45 <AnMaster> any decent interpreter would optimize that
12:59:54 <tusho> AnMaster: read up
12:59:55 <tusho> geez
12:59:57 <tusho> context
12:59:58 * AnMaster does
13:00:02 <tusho> don't reply unless you read the context
13:00:13 <oklopol> now, we just need to convert it to a program creating the numbers 1-8 on the memory array representing the code
13:00:14 <AnMaster> ah true
13:00:19 <oklopol> and the quine is done
13:00:38 <asiekierka> Ok.
13:01:11 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/bfboot.zip - an untested version of a standalone bootable bf interpreter a friend made for me in like, 2007
13:01:13 <oklopol> now you can see you can just do anything that semantically keeps the bf program the same, and it will still stay a quine
13:01:16 <asiekierka> Test it's speed
13:01:40 <Tritonio_> yes but by trying to convert it to a program that writes it's code on the array is equally difficult with making a quine from the scratch. So why bother to create the part of the code that prints the memory cells like brainfuick commands?
13:02:00 <asiekierka> please
13:02:08 <asiekierka> oh wait
13:02:08 <Tritonio_> am i missing something?
13:02:09 <oklopol> Tritonio_: what?
13:02:11 <tusho> asiekierka: is it faster than bff
13:02:22 <oklopol> well that's the easiest way to make a quine "from scratch"
13:02:25 <asiekierka> I don't know, didnt test it as you must input everything through cli for now
13:02:27 <oklopol> how would you do it then?
13:02:32 <asiekierka> But you can check the source
13:03:13 <oklopol> and oh
13:03:19 <oklopol> Tritonio_: yes, you missed something
13:03:39 <asiekierka> I think the i/o functions take 20-40 cpu cycles at most
13:03:44 <oklopol> you see, if the program to do all that writing i explained earlier were +++.+,+,+.+,, which we know it's not
13:04:14 <oklopol> then the part that writes it on the memory array would simply be +>+>+>++++++>+>+++++++>+>+++++++>+>++++++>+>+++++++>+++++++
13:04:49 <oklopol> it's simpler than making a quine, because it doesn't have to write *itself* on the array, just the program
13:04:57 <oklopol> because the program is what does the actual quining
13:06:10 <tusho> optbot,
13:06:10 <optbot> tusho: this is why we can't have nice things
13:06:13 <oklopol> this is the usual way to make a quine, you make "data", and you make "code"; code is something that takes the data, and first writes it in the form it was probably created in (here the +++>+++>++++> form), and then as representing something that could be conceived as code
13:06:13 <tusho> optbot: is it
13:06:14 <optbot> tusho: I already did 19
13:06:17 <tusho> optbot: ok
13:06:17 <optbot> tusho: hmm
13:06:25 <oklopol> now, if you encode "code" in "data", you will have a quine
13:07:01 <oklopol> and because the encoding will usually be trivial, and automatizable, you can do the data creation part automatically for any code you can think of
13:07:07 <oklopol> as long as it has the same functionality
13:07:53 <oklopol> in a language with a greater number of dimensions for the memory than 1, you can trivially wrap it in something like an interpreter for another langauge
13:07:55 <oklopol> *language
13:08:00 <oklopol> and other wicked things
13:08:21 <oklopol> (most languages have an infinite number of dimensions)
13:08:47 <AnMaster> oklopol, they do?
13:08:53 <oklopol> i think a language has infinite number of dimensions iff you can store a tree structure natively
13:09:07 <oklopol> *an infinite
13:09:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, um, makes sense
13:09:20 <oklopol> sure does
13:09:22 <AnMaster> C matches that then
13:09:43 <oklopol> did anyone who already didn't know how quines are done get my explanation there?
13:10:14 <oklopol> well yes, recursive structures means that automatically
13:10:31 <oklopol> basically just an issue with esolangs
13:13:41 <AnMaster> tusho, I think passing the funge space around will be very slow, because accessing head of list is fast, but accessing it elsewhere isn't
13:14:00 <tusho> AnMaster: it doesn't matter if its slow
13:14:07 <tusho> it's good for learning how to structure things functionally
13:14:13 <AnMaster> tusho, also you can't access by index
13:14:20 <tusho> yes you can, there's a function for it
13:14:27 <AnMaster> where?
13:14:31 <tusho> don't ask me
13:14:40 <tusho> I don't know erlang, but I know it has a function for accessing an element in an index in a list
13:14:47 <tusho> because every non-esoteric language with lists has one.
13:14:47 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe using a dict, still functional
13:14:53 <AnMaster> but should work for this
13:15:07 <tusho> AnMaster: look around for the right function for al ist
13:15:11 <tusho> but yea
13:15:15 <tusho> a dict would be better
13:15:21 <AnMaster> tusho, I think a key-value dictionary is better yeah
13:15:32 * AnMaster looks up manual page for dict module
13:15:34 <oklopol> if it doesn't have it, you can write the two lines of code yourself
13:15:43 <AnMaster> $ erl -man dict
13:16:29 <Tritonio_> oklopol, still don't get some parts... Ok first you write some bf code (call it A) that iterates all cells and prints +++> if it encounters a 3 etc. right?
13:17:06 <oklopol> yes
13:17:06 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/EXin4t44.html
13:17:09 <AnMaster> does that seem sane?
13:17:38 <Tritonio_> oklopol, also after that the same code has the ability to convert them into brainfuck commands and print them as well.
13:17:40 <oklopol> anyway what you want here for idiomaticity and speed is straw
13:17:49 <oklopol> Tritonio_: yes
13:17:50 <AnMaster> in b93 only code and string mode are allowed
13:17:53 -!- Sgeo has joined.
13:18:06 <AnMaster> so I'd probably do "stringmode" and then a true/false
13:18:08 <oklopol> so we know A is a very simple bf program that takes about 15 minutes to write
13:18:47 <Tritonio_> so if it encountered 1,2,3,4 it would print: +>++>+++>++++>+-<>
13:18:54 <oklopol> yes
13:19:23 <Tritonio_> so then you have to make the last part (+-<>) been able to do what code A is able to do?
13:19:51 <Tritonio_> and that would change the left part too that creates that values on the memory
13:19:51 <oklopol> there are two things you have to write
13:19:57 <oklopol> you have to write A
13:20:07 <oklopol> as any program whatsoever that does what A is supposed to do
13:20:09 <oklopol> then
13:20:12 <oklopol> you need to write B
13:20:31 <oklopol> which is simply a conversion of A into + -> +>, - -> ++>, etc
13:20:40 <oklopol> then just run BA
13:20:52 <AnMaster> tusho, I shall call it efunge
13:20:59 <oklopol> (concatenation of B and A that is)
13:21:06 <tusho> AnMaster: why call it anything
13:21:11 -!- kar8nga has joined.
13:21:13 <tusho> just make befunge.erl on your HD
13:21:14 <AnMaster> tusho, need to have a name to run it :P
13:21:16 <tusho> and don't release it
13:21:20 <tusho> because it's not interesting :-P
13:21:22 <AnMaster> tusho, why not release it?
13:21:26 <AnMaster> oh well
13:21:26 <oklopol> B is insanely trivial to write, and can be automatized easily
13:21:30 <tusho> AnMaster: well, you could pastebin it
13:21:30 <tusho> :P
13:21:34 <tusho> but just call it befunge.erl
13:21:44 <AnMaster> tusho, multiple files
13:21:45 <oklopol> A is a program that just does some printing given data
13:21:48 <AnMaster> modules
13:21:49 <tusho> AnMaster: why
13:21:53 <AnMaster> tusho, that is the erlang way :P
13:21:55 <tusho> befunge-93 is like 30 lines of C AnMaster
13:22:00 <tusho> it doesn't need multiple modules
13:22:00 <AnMaster> I'm trying to be idiomatic!
13:22:08 <tusho> AnMaster: if you're being sarcastic then fine
13:22:17 <tusho> but idiomatic erlang does not split up a trivial thing into multiple modules
13:22:22 <tusho> and befunge-93 is the essence of trivial
13:22:31 <AnMaster> tusho, well not trivial, but stack is one module
13:22:34 <Tritonio_> oklopol, oooh ok! I got it... Thanx! :-)
13:22:34 <AnMaster> that could be reused
13:22:41 <tusho> AnMaster: erlang probably has one built in
13:22:42 <tusho> go find it
13:22:47 <AnMaster> tusho, I looked for it
13:22:57 <AnMaster> there is stack trace, but no stack as far as I can find
13:23:12 <oklopol> Tritonio_: yay! :)
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14:23:06 <AnMaster> yay I managed to load the funge space into a dict
14:23:11 <AnMaster> in a very functional way
14:23:12 <AnMaster> tusho, ^
14:23:19 <tusho> yay
14:23:31 <AnMaster> I think so at least
14:23:42 <AnMaster> load and dump works
14:23:46 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/b7MKra33.html
14:23:57 * tusho will be very scared on the day when AnMaster starts preferring a functional language to C for a lot of tasks. :P
14:24:10 <tusho> it'd have a big effect on Hell's temperature
14:24:14 <AnMaster> actually, not perfectly
14:24:30 <tusho> AnMaster: looks pretty idiomatic
14:24:32 <tusho> ask #erlang?
14:24:35 <AnMaster> I must have a off by one error
14:24:45 <AnMaster> or something like that
14:24:51 <AnMaster> one blank line too much
14:24:55 <AnMaster> in dump
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14:26:07 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/H2hZGg31.html
14:26:13 <AnMaster> tusho, and error there I think
14:26:14 <AnMaster> oh wait
14:26:23 <AnMaster> I probably put \n into funge space at load time
14:29:38 <AnMaster> yes that was the issue tusho
14:29:44 <tusho> yay
14:29:48 <tusho> now repaste and ask #erlang if it's idiomatic
14:29:48 <tusho> :P
14:29:56 <tusho> loooks it but who knows
14:30:16 <AnMaster> tusho, nah I'll idle there first
14:30:22 <AnMaster> to see what sort of channel it is
14:30:25 <AnMaster> if it is like ##c....
14:30:26 <tusho> AnMaster: i've been in there before
14:30:29 <tusho> they're very friendly
14:30:31 <tusho> like #haskell
14:30:35 <AnMaster> tusho, I want to see for myself thanks
14:30:53 <tusho> also I've never seen another channel like ##c in my life
14:32:43 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/ljoGPF37.html
14:32:49 <AnMaster> tusho, impressive output ^
14:32:59 <tusho> Cool.
14:33:13 <AnMaster> tusho, by the way, had I used C I would have been done already
14:33:14 <AnMaster> ;P
14:33:20 <tusho> AnMaster: That might be because you know C. :P
14:33:27 <AnMaster> true
14:35:57 <AnMaster> tusho, I still get some trailing newlines at the end hrrm
14:36:35 <AnMaster> oh well, probably a typo in dump
14:45:03 <AnMaster> main([A]) ->
14:45:03 <AnMaster> Space = fspace:load(A),
14:45:03 <AnMaster> loop(#fungeState{}, [], Space).
14:45:10 <AnMaster> that will be my main function
14:46:03 <tusho> AnMaster: Sounds reasonable.
14:46:36 <AnMaster> actually make that fState, because I will need to type it a lot
14:48:37 <AnMaster> #fState{x=X, y=Y, dx=DX, dy=DY} = State,
14:48:37 <AnMaster> NewState = State#fState{ x=X+DX, y=Y+DY },
14:48:37 <AnMaster> loop(State, Stack, FungeSpace).
14:48:43 <AnMaster> should work at the end of the main loop
14:48:52 <AnMaster> or something like that
14:49:20 <AnMaster> that would have been cleaner in C, just +=
14:49:21 <AnMaster> hehe
14:49:33 <AnMaster> oh and make State NewState on last line
14:50:27 <tusho> AnMaster: also, there's probably an easier way to do it
14:50:37 <AnMaster> tusho, oh?
14:50:41 <tusho> so you can't just say "ah, I don't know Erlang all that way, but this first try evidently proves that it would be cleaner in C"
14:50:46 <tusho> *way->well
14:50:51 <AnMaster> indeed
15:22:02 <tusho> AnMaster: surely that's enough idling
15:22:04 <tusho> :P
15:22:14 <AnMaster> no
15:22:16 <AnMaster> and busy atm
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15:43:05 <AnMaster> 20> efunge:main(["hello.bf"]).
15:43:05 <AnMaster> Hello world!
15:43:05 <AnMaster> ** exception exit: normal
15:43:07 <AnMaster> tusho, ^
15:43:11 <AnMaster> doesn't do most stuff yet
15:43:14 <tusho> AnMaster: yay
15:43:19 <AnMaster> but enough to print a simple string
15:43:22 <tusho> pastebin it?
15:43:26 <AnMaster> 91+"!dlrow olleH">:#,_@
15:43:29 <AnMaster> is the program
15:43:31 <AnMaster> that it can run so far
15:43:35 <AnMaster> it can't run other stuff yet
15:43:44 <AnMaster> most other instructions are not yet implemented
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15:52:43 <tusho> wow
15:52:47 <tusho> Deewiant and MikeRiley
15:52:48 <tusho> seconds apart
15:52:55 <tusho> on a related note, AnMaster is implementing yet another funge...
15:52:57 <tusho> but 93
15:52:59 <tusho> and in erlang
15:53:08 <MikeRiley> hi tusho
15:53:20 <Deewiant> the computer my irssi was running on was booted :-/
15:53:47 <AnMaster> yes
15:53:48 <MikeRiley> hi deewiant
15:53:51 <AnMaster> I'm learning erlang
15:53:56 <Deewiant> yo
15:53:58 <AnMaster> so I decided to make a small funge93 interpreter in it
15:54:02 <AnMaster> for learning
15:54:12 <AnMaster> most of it is done really
15:54:17 <AnMaster> just a few instructions left
15:55:06 <dogface> There's a possibility that my brother will be coming to Normish.
15:55:33 <tusho> dogface: Wrong channel.
15:55:52 <dogface> If I said it in #rootnomic, I'd be talking to myself.
15:56:03 <tusho> If you said it in ##nomic you wouldn't.
15:56:33 <dogface> True.
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16:03:08 <AnMaster> hmm... almost got there
16:10:35 <AnMaster> blergh, seems like erlang always display a [] at input
16:15:12 <oklofok> C:void = erlang:[]
16:16:33 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho|away.
16:18:46 -!- dogface_ has joined.
16:25:12 <AnMaster> oklofok, eh?
16:25:30 <AnMaster> oklofok, I need to get one char of input. with no prompt whatsoever
16:25:34 <AnMaster> to conform to funge spec
16:25:40 <AnMaster> how do I do that in erlang
16:26:06 <AnMaster> showing [] is not acceptable
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16:46:43 <AnMaster> tusho, it works now for life.bf, but is very very slow
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16:58:05 <AnMaster> wumpus now works
16:58:36 <dogface_> Three! Point! One! Four! One! Five! Nine! Two! Six! Five! Three! Five! Eight! Nine! Seven! Nine! Three! Two!
17:01:12 <oklofok> IT'S GREAT TO BE ALIVE!
17:01:31 <oklofok> ON IHANAA OLLA ELOSSA!
17:02:04 <oklofok> a rare example of a sentence shorter in finnish than in english
17:02:13 <oklofok> awesome
17:02:29 <Deewiant> GREAT /= IHANAA
17:02:35 <Deewiant> I'd say it's more like MAINIOTA
17:02:42 <Deewiant> so english wins
17:02:49 <Deewiant> dogface_: http://abstrusegoose.com/23
17:07:20 <fizzie> What, was Deewiant also a .fi person? I never knew! (Or if I knew, I already forgot.)
17:07:22 <oklofok> "it's wonderful to be alive"
17:07:37 <oklofok> on mainiota olla elossa sounds ridiculous :D
17:07:44 <Deewiant> fizzie: you forgot
17:08:45 <oklofok> /nick oklofik & /nick Deefiant, we should all follow fizzie's example and show our nationalities in our nicks
17:09:04 <oklofok> then perhaps /nick dogfuk?
17:09:05 <oklofok> hmm
17:09:11 <oklofok> actually you're american
17:09:14 <Deewiant> I thought fizzie was from ireland
17:09:22 <Deewiant> fizz_ie_ and all that
17:09:55 -!- tusho|away has changed nick to tusho.
17:11:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tusho: http://rafb.net/p/ONXHUD93.html
17:11:23 <AnMaster> still input is kind of broken
17:11:32 <AnMaster> as it outputs [] at a prompt every time
17:11:46 <AnMaster> and the exit status at the end every time
17:12:35 <AnMaster> mycorand works
17:13:15 <Deewiant> how about mycology itself
17:13:17 <oklofok> mycorand sounds awesome
17:14:05 <dogface_> I'm honored to be mistaken for a Brit. :-P
17:15:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is what I posted at http://rafb.net/p/ONXHUD93.html
17:15:14 <AnMaster> ....
17:15:22 <AnMaster> it is 93 only
17:15:42 <Deewiant> ah, I would have thought that's a mycorand paste
17:15:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, eh why?
17:16:08 <Deewiant> given that you said "mycorand works" soon after pasting it
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17:16:43 <AnMaster> anyway I need to figure out how to 1) run it stand alone, not inside erlang, 2) avoid prompt on input 3) get rid of the "** exception exit: normal"
17:17:23 <tusho> AnMaster: as for 1)
17:17:26 <tusho> that's not idiomatic erlang
17:17:32 <tusho> as it's not ususally used for standalone progs
17:17:35 <tusho> as opposed to servers, etc
17:17:54 <tusho> just run it from the repl, or if you must, write a shell script that feeds run(read_file(filename)) to erlang
17:17:54 <AnMaster> tusho, it is still kind of idiomatic
17:17:59 <AnMaster> ever seen wings3d?
17:18:05 <AnMaster> it is a 3D editor coded in erlang
17:18:11 <AnMaster> polygon editing
17:18:13 <AnMaster> very good
17:18:15 <tusho> yes and how do you know it's idiomatic?
17:18:15 <tusho> hmm?
17:18:24 <AnMaster> tusho, well can't be 100% sure of that
17:18:28 <tusho> exactly
17:18:41 <AnMaster> and yes shell script is what I plan to use
17:18:50 <AnMaster> that is the official way to run standalone
17:18:55 <AnMaster> that is what wings3d use too
17:18:56 <AnMaster> !
17:19:37 <tusho> AnMaster: have you done any of the concurrency or network stuff yet
17:19:43 <AnMaster> tusho, not yet no
17:19:52 <AnMaster> and probably won't today
17:20:02 <AnMaster> tusho, I did test distributed erlang though today
17:20:06 <AnMaster> between two computers
17:20:10 <AnMaster> was fun
17:20:21 <AnMaster> but I haven't actually used such stuff for something useful yet no
17:40:59 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:41:27 <ais523> hi tusho
17:41:29 <ais523> optbot!
17:41:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | apply is depreciated??.
17:41:38 <tusho> ais523
17:41:43 <tusho> i am behind you with a knife
17:41:47 <ais523> I doubt it
17:41:50 <tusho> you shall never beat me to greeting me again
17:41:52 <tusho> it ends ... NOW!
17:41:58 -!- tusho has changed nick to als523.
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17:42:06 -!- als523 has changed nick to tusho.
17:43:01 <ais523> hmm... too obvious
17:43:07 <dogface_> !
17:43:48 <dogface_> (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b. a -> m a.
17:44:19 <ais523> what are the dots for?
17:44:30 <dogface_> Pretend they're semicolons or something.
17:44:30 <ais523> apart from that it looks like a typical Haskell data type
17:44:50 <dogface_> Or em-en-dashes.
17:46:07 <tusho> dogface_: flip (>>=). return.
17:48:25 <dogface_> Hmm.
17:48:55 <dogface_> (a -> m b) -> (a -> b) -> m a.
17:49:21 <dogface_> No.
17:49:41 <dogface_> m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b.
17:50:37 <dogface_> Hmm, I wonder what you do get with primitives (a -> m b) -> (a -> m a) and... something else.
17:52:33 * dogface_ looks for an else
17:53:27 <dogface_> Er, (a -> m b) -> (a -> b) -> m a and something else.
17:55:50 <dogface_> That's S, there's no K or I, B is m a -> (b -> a) -> m b, C is (a -> m b) -> b -> m a, and W is (a -> m a) -> m a.
17:56:30 <tusho> brb.
17:57:14 <dogface_> Is S, B, C and W sufficient to make K?
18:10:20 <AnMaster> ais523, hello
18:10:24 <ais523> hi AnMaster
18:10:30 <AnMaster> ais523, I wrote a Befunge 93 interpreter in erlang today
18:10:33 <AnMaster> well mostly done
18:10:37 <AnMaster> still one bug left
18:10:43 <ais523> what's the bug?
18:10:44 <AnMaster> input displays a [] prompt
18:10:50 <AnMaster> which is against the funge specs
18:10:54 <AnMaster> can't get rid of it it seems
18:11:03 <AnMaster> I'll upload the stuff shortly btw
18:11:56 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho|away.
18:15:49 -!- Hiato has joined.
18:15:52 <AnMaster> http://bzr.kuonet.org/efunge/trunk/files
18:15:56 <AnMaster> ais523, tusho|away ^
18:15:59 <AnMaster> and maybe Deewiant ^
18:16:03 <AnMaster> still the input bug
18:16:12 * ais523 looks
18:16:34 <AnMaster> ais523, As I'm trying to learn erlang currently, I have gone for "idiomatic, and idiotic" instead of "fast"
18:16:43 <ais523> well, I don't know erlang
18:17:01 <AnMaster> ais523, so it looks like garbage to you? ;)
18:17:02 -!- Hiato has quit (Client Quit).
18:17:17 <ais523> no, most programming langs are at least slightly readable even to people who don't know them
18:17:22 <ais523> some esolangs being the exception of course
18:17:43 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you think of this erlang code then?
18:17:51 <AnMaster> hint: it is functional
18:18:00 <ais523> ah, I was wondering if it was declarative, it looks like it could be
18:18:04 <AnMaster> so I guess knowing haskell and/or LISP could help
18:18:11 <AnMaster> ais523, declarative?
18:18:15 <ais523> like Prolog
18:18:24 <AnMaster> never coded prolog
18:18:44 <AnMaster> ais523, but I think I heard erlang got some traces of prolog in it's style too
18:18:49 <ais523> it's almost an esolang, it's too practical to be an esolang but the paradigm is likely to be unlike anything you've ever seen
18:18:53 <ais523> but that erlang code certainly reminded me of it
18:19:10 <AnMaster> you mean prolog or erlang is too like an esolang?
18:19:21 <ais523> I was talking about Prolog
18:19:23 <AnMaster> ah
18:20:19 <AnMaster> ais523, fstack.erl is probably the most readable
18:22:47 <AnMaster> ais523, so what do you think of erlang so far?
18:23:07 <ais523> too busy thinking about other things to form an opinion
18:23:17 <ais523> it's Monday and I was late in as it is, and I have lots of things to do on Mondays
18:23:33 <AnMaster> ais523, oh well
18:28:41 * dogface_ searches for compilers from Unlambda
18:29:09 <ais523> dogface_: I don't think there are any, I wrote an Unlambda -> Underlambda compiler once but deleted it by mistake
18:29:49 <dogface_> The Esolang wiki links to two Unlambda interpretations; I don't know if they're compilers.
18:30:44 <dogface_> nsl.com looks like it could be some official site. "National Science Library" or something. Of course, nsl.org would look even more official, nsl.gov more official still.
18:30:50 <dogface_> Instead, it's "No Stinking Loops".
18:31:22 <dogface_> Implementation number 1 is an interpreter.
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18:35:36 <dogface_> . F# B D . . E . . B . . . G C D . . E . . C . . .
18:35:57 <ais523> Unlambda is very hard to compile
18:36:04 <ais523> mostly because of d
18:36:06 <dogface_> (Octave break between E and F.)
18:36:11 <ais523> which doesn't correspond to anything in most functional languages
18:36:31 <dogface_> All it does is change evaluation order.
18:36:39 <ais523> yes, I know what it does
18:36:41 <dogface_> Evaluation order is already a pest, I imagine.
18:36:43 <ais523> but how do you compile it?
18:36:53 <dogface_> The same way you compile everything else about evaluation order.
18:37:24 <ais523> dogface_: if you're compiling into a strict lang then the evaluation order's the same between Unlambda and your strict functional lang, except for d
18:38:07 <dogface_> I want to compile into a purely functional language, like C bytecode or something. :-P
18:38:33 <ais523> dogface_: well ehird and I have an Underload -> C compiler, and I think an Underlambda -> C compiler might work along similar lines
18:38:37 <ais523> continuations are the problem with that, though
18:38:59 <dogface_> What is Underlambda?
18:39:01 -!- tusho|away has changed nick to tusho.
18:39:10 <tusho> back
18:39:19 <ais523> a lang I invented, which is designed to be similar to Underload but more practical
18:39:30 <ais523> and also designed so that Unlambda can be compiled into it
18:39:45 <ais523> yet that Underlambda itself can be compiled into an imperative lang
18:39:57 <dogface_> Is it an impure functional programming language with side effects, a delay combinator, and continuations?
18:40:31 <ais523> no delay combinator, and it's concatenative not functional, but otherwise you're about right
18:40:43 <ais523> I worked out how to get around the delay combinator problem
18:41:01 <ais523> unfortunately I accidentally deleted the file where I stored that information so I'll have to try to work it out again
18:41:08 <ais523> luckily though as I did it once I'll have memory to help me
18:41:18 <oklofok> ". F# B D . . E . . B . . . G C D . . E . . C . . ." does this have relevant spaces?
18:41:19 <dogface_> What is a concatenative language?
18:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and autoconf detects whether it's available or not and selects the right version.
18:41:33 <dogface_> oklofok: the periods are rests.
18:41:37 <ais523> dogface_: first see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload, that's a concatenative tarpit
18:41:38 <tusho> dogface_: compose(x,y)=concat(x,y)
18:41:42 <tusho> for valid programs x and y
18:41:44 <ais523> that'll give you a good guide
18:41:45 <tusho> stack-based usually
18:42:06 <ais523> but the usual form of a concatenative language is one in which all the commands are functions from stacks to stacks
18:42:21 <ais523> and concatenating two commands in the source is equivalent to composing the functions they represent
18:42:36 <ais523> and you can put bits of program on the stack and manipulate them like data
18:42:44 <dogface_> So it just executes all commands in sequence, with no jumping allowed?
18:42:52 <tusho> err
18:42:53 <tusho> no
18:43:08 <ais523> combinators can execute commands out of sequence
18:43:13 <ais523> e.g. Underload has ^ which is eval
18:43:25 <oklofok> dogface: i'm assuming a scale of B C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B
18:43:30 <ais523> and although it always does things in sequence you can create a loop by calling ^ recursively
18:43:53 <dogface_> oklofok: F F# G G# A A# B C C# D D# E was what I was thinking.
18:44:02 <ais523> e.g. (:^):^ is the simplest possible infinite loop in Underload
18:44:02 * dogface_ looks at Underload
18:44:05 <oklofok> dogface: those are equal
18:44:09 <ais523> (:^) puts :^ on the stack
18:44:12 <ais523> then : makes two copies of it
18:44:16 <ais523> and ^ evaluates one of them
18:44:36 <ais523> if EgoBot were here I could show you Underload live in the channel
18:44:38 <dogface_> oklofok: I guess I was making assumptions about what you meant by scale.
18:45:16 <dogface_> On the keyboard, the notes are in the order F#, B, C, D, E.
18:45:33 <dogface_> F#, G, B, C, D, E, rather.
18:46:18 <oklofok> what is this piece?
18:46:20 <dogface_> You're not trying to play this in just intonation, are you? :-)
18:46:29 <dogface_> Something that popped into my head.
18:46:29 <tusho> ais523: egobot may not be here
18:46:31 <tusho> but optbot is
18:46:31 <optbot> tusho: i know great books, but i'm too lazy to borrow them from the library
18:46:42 <dogface_> It might be from somewhere.
18:46:53 <ais523> tusho: can optbot interpret Underload?
18:46:54 <optbot> ais523: Done :).
18:47:00 <tusho> ais523: see, he just did
18:47:04 <tusho> he even told you he did
18:47:06 <dogface_> Can optbot do anything?
18:47:06 <optbot> dogface_: You've got me hooked.
18:47:09 <ais523> optbot: (:aSS):aSS
18:47:09 <optbot> ais523: err
18:47:13 <oklofok> dogface: in just intonation?
18:47:27 <ais523> tusho: I don't think optbot can really, it's struggling even with a simple quine
18:47:27 <optbot> ais523: ah
18:47:35 <dogface_> oklofok: using whole number frequency ratios, rather than those usually found on a piano, which are irrational.
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18:49:08 <RodgerTheGreat> I have newfound evidence that Edsger Dijkstra was a shithead.
18:49:09 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD1009.html
18:49:19 <RodgerTheGreat> in response to this:
18:49:19 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.ecn.purdue.edu/ParaMount/papers/rubin87goto.pdf
18:50:13 <RodgerTheGreat> tl;dr: "Rubin sucks, and so do you guys. Here's some APL-looking stuff. You don't understand this, and you aren't qualified to do your jobs. kthxbai"
18:50:19 <oklofok> dogface: western chromatic, just ensured usa uses B as A##/Cb, and not as A#/Hb like finland
18:50:38 <oklofok> where H = Cb ofc
18:50:49 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: you have tried to prove that he's a shithead very often
18:50:56 <tusho> you just make yourself look ridiculous, most of the time
18:50:59 <RodgerTheGreat> this is compelling evidence
18:51:06 <tusho> if you know anything about djikstra you would know that that is his programming langauge
18:51:12 <tusho> that he used for everything
18:51:22 <dogface_> oklofok: oh.
18:51:34 <dogface_> You have your sharps in the right places, then.
18:51:36 <tusho> furthermore, the arrogance required to propose yourself as more intelligent than djikstra should probably be causing the universe to implode by now
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18:53:27 <oklofok> . F# B D . . E . . B . . . G C D . . E . . C . . . <<< i dislike the second D
18:53:37 * pikhq beats tusho with a large stick
18:53:47 <tusho> pikhq: why?
18:53:59 <pikhq> Because Dijkstra is a fiendishly clever ass.
18:54:08 <pikhq> The two are probably related.
18:54:17 <dogface_> So Underload is "execute all commands in sequence, with no jumping allowed", if you keep a parenthesis number around and interpret commands differently when it's positive.
18:54:40 <dogface_> oklofok: is that the same as what I said?
18:54:51 <oklofok> err yes
18:55:40 <oklofok> anyway, as i'm probably the only one interested in what melodies pop into your head, i suggest using my standard notation :P
18:55:55 <oklofok> a-z0-9A-Z where 0 is the suggested base note
18:56:03 <oklofok> whatever the correct term is
18:56:05 <dogface_> With semitone differences?
18:56:08 <oklofok> yes
18:56:18 <dogface_> How un-diatonic. :-)
18:56:36 <oklofok> yes, it's a good system
18:56:45 * dogface_ tries sharpening and flattening the offending D
18:56:51 <oklofok> haha
18:57:20 <oklofok> i love pieces that mix minor and major in the same riff
18:57:44 <oklofok> i actually have a piano riff where left had is in minor, and right hand in major
18:57:47 <oklofok> it's awesome
18:57:51 <oklofok> *hand
18:58:05 <dogface_> Cool.
18:58:48 <dogface_> That's what you get when you use thirds all over the place, of course.
18:59:33 <dogface_> Sharpening the D makes it sound... more emotional and better, I think.
18:59:39 <dogface_> Flattening it makes it sound more dissonant.
19:03:02 <dogface_> I think I'd like to modify your notation a bit.
19:06:39 * dogface_ modifies the notation a bit
19:13:29 <dogface_> http://pastebin.ca/1166519
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19:14:24 <dogface_> The character alone is whatever's in the center column. The character followed by . is the leftmost thing in the row. The character followed by ^ is the rightmost thing in the row.
19:14:32 <dogface_> And it repeats every octave.
19:15:13 <dogface_> So you know what's a sharp and what's a flat.
19:15:20 <oklofok> so my system but with useless information added?
19:15:32 <dogface_> It's not useless if you're playing in a different tuning. :-P
19:15:35 <oklofok> hmm
19:15:51 <dogface_> Also, flattening G# is more common than flattening Ab, I imagine.
19:15:58 <ais523> double-flats exist
19:16:04 <dogface_> True.
19:16:05 <ais523> there's even special notation for double-sharps
19:16:13 <oklofok> there are no sharps
19:16:15 <dogface_> It's a cute little notation.
19:16:23 <oklofok> there are frequencies, and there is a chromatic scale
19:17:17 <dogface_> In something like 19-tone equal temperament, G# and Ab are different notes. In just intonation, they're probably still different notes.
19:17:30 <ais523> they are different in just
19:17:42 <ais523> I actually wrote a program to play just scales and equitempered scales one after another
19:17:46 <AnMaster> ais523, would tail recursive functions cause issues for ick?
19:17:46 <ais523> they both sounded correct
19:17:49 <ais523> despite sounding different
19:17:56 <ais523> AnMaster: how are you doing the tail recursion?
19:17:56 <oklofok> G# = Ab = 440*(2^11/12).
19:17:57 <ais523> I doubt it
19:18:00 <AnMaster> ais523, not in cfunge
19:18:02 <dogface_> Everything sounds correct. :-P
19:18:04 <AnMaster> ais523, just wondering, in general
19:18:06 <oklofok> give or take some integer multiple of 2
19:18:15 <ais523> AnMaster: well, what is tail recursion? It's doing goto rather than a procedure call
19:18:19 <ais523> and ick doesn't care about gotos
19:18:35 <AnMaster> ais523, hm true, what about non-tail recursion then?
19:18:40 <ais523> again no problem
19:18:51 <ais523> as long as the functions return in the reverse of the order they were called in
19:18:54 <ais523> which is usual in recursion
19:19:09 <ais523> or at least, I mean a function stops running after it returns
19:19:14 <AnMaster> ais523, what if there is a computed COME FROM in such a function?
19:19:19 <AnMaster> so it jumps out of the middle of one
19:19:55 <ais523> AnMaster: I wrote a long essay of what you could and couldn't do in such cases, line label in the middle of a recursive function is fine as long as it's declared with ICK_EC_FUNC_START
19:19:55 <AnMaster> I mean, a computed come from pointed at such a function
19:20:05 <AnMaster> ais523, ah hm
19:20:08 <ais523> which means you can't pass it any arguments
19:20:18 <ais523> except via global variables
19:20:26 <AnMaster> I see
19:20:46 <AnMaster> which make recursion rather pointless
19:21:02 <ais523> not really, you can do something like just use globals as a parameter-passing method
19:21:28 <AnMaster> ais523, does COME FROM and line labels have to be at the top level of such a function?
19:21:41 <ais523> e.g. int a,b; void recursivefunc(void) {int alocal=a, blocal=b; /* do stuff */; a=alocal+1; b=blocal*2; recursivefunc();}
19:21:45 <ais523> AnMaster: no, they can be anywhere
19:21:50 <ais523> well, anywhere a line label is legal
19:21:50 <AnMaster> or can they be nested deep into, say duff's device
19:21:55 <ais523> so duff's device is fine
19:22:03 <ais523> they do have to be as commands not as expressions though
19:22:04 <AnMaster> hm
19:22:11 <ais523> like return does
19:22:29 <AnMaster> as for globals and recursiveness... there is an issue
19:22:47 <AnMaster> you don't get a stack
19:22:56 <ais523> yes you do, look at my example above
19:23:02 <AnMaster> so you will overwrite the arguments of the previous call, right?
19:23:10 <AnMaster> hm...
19:23:14 <AnMaster> ah ok
19:23:17 <ais523> AnMaster: no, because you store the arguments on the stack, that's what alocal and blocal are for
19:23:33 <ais523> you just use the globals to do parameter-passing by hand
19:23:43 <ais523> otoh there are other problems with auto variables and INTERCAL control statements
19:23:45 <AnMaster> ais523, still such locals will be messed up by your setjmp/longjmp stuff right?
19:24:01 <ais523> AnMaster: they are to some extent, it depends on what you do
19:24:09 <ais523> jumping out of functions is fine, it's jumping into them that's the problem
19:24:17 <AnMaster> yeah...
19:24:35 <dogface_> In 19-tone equal temperament, 0 is 0 steps, 1. is 1 step, 1 is 2 steps, 2 is 3 steps, 2^ is 4 steps, 3. is also 4 steps... what fun!
19:24:46 <ais523> if you NEXT out of a function and RESUME back into it, then its auto variables are preserved if they're volatile or if they're not modified juring that time
19:24:55 <AnMaster> ais523, could you write an C-INTERCAL <-> Haskell interface? because that would be awesome, and so much break the Haskell style XD
19:24:57 <AnMaster> brb
19:25:18 <ais523> if you NEXT or COME FROM into a function, then all its auto variables are clobbered (because there's no sensible way to give them a value)
19:25:45 <tusho> [19:21:43] <ais523> e.g. int a,b; void recursivefunc(void) {int alocal=a, blocal=b; /* do stuff */; a=alocal+1; b=blocal*2; recursivefunc();}
19:25:46 <tusho> just do
19:25:52 <tusho> {top: ...; goto top}
19:25:55 <tusho> recursion is pointless
19:25:56 <tusho> :P
19:26:01 <tusho> for that case
19:26:17 <tusho> or just use a while loop
19:30:53 <oklofok> dogface: basically the notation you suggested is a complicated version of the normal C-C#-D-...-B-C scale
19:31:00 <dogface_> oklofok: precisely. :-)
19:31:24 <oklofok> given that the normal scale is absolute crap, i'd say i dislike yours quite a lot
19:38:15 <tusho> hmm
19:38:32 <tusho> I stand by my assertion that an esolang for messing about with scales and sine waves and stuff would rock.
19:38:32 <AnMaster> tusho, hey! think functional :P
19:38:42 <AnMaster> actually for some stuff I would probably prefer erlang
19:38:49 <AnMaster> but not for something like a funge interpreter
19:38:56 <tusho> agreed
19:38:57 <AnMaster> because a mutable state is what funge is *all about*
19:39:07 <tusho> a functional ircd might work, though :P
19:39:13 <AnMaster> tusho, hmmm... yeah
19:39:31 <AnMaster> there is an example of a similar thing in "Programming Erlang"
19:39:41 <AnMaster> tusho, using distributed erlang
19:39:57 <tusho> a haskell ircd might just be total win
19:40:02 <oklofok> well how about straw? :))
19:40:05 <AnMaster> tusho, what about speed?
19:40:15 <tusho> AnMaster: ircds don't have to be overly fast...
19:40:18 <AnMaster> because an ircd should be able to handle 10000 clients at a time
19:40:19 <AnMaster> or so
19:40:19 <tusho> besides, haskell is fast
19:40:28 <tusho> AnMaster: well, erlang would certainly manage that
19:40:28 <tusho> :P
19:40:32 <AnMaster> tusho, yeah
19:40:34 <tusho> haskell probably would too
19:40:35 <AnMaster> but threaded
19:40:38 <tusho> it's not a slow language
19:40:42 <tusho> AnMaster: erlang doesn't use OS threads
19:40:42 <AnMaster> that is like totally painful
19:40:46 <AnMaster> tusho, even so
19:40:51 <tusho> AnMaster: it uses lightweight green threads
19:40:55 <tusho> AnMaster: it would work fine
19:41:02 <tusho> AnMaster: after all, erlang is used in telephone systems
19:41:05 <AnMaster> tusho, when I think irc I think non-blocking IO
19:41:06 <tusho> that's what it was designed for
19:41:11 <tusho> AnMaster: erlang has that too
19:41:18 <AnMaster> tusho, well but still
19:41:19 <AnMaster> hm
19:41:28 <AnMaster> tusho, and epoll/kqueue
19:41:33 <AnMaster> not select or poll
19:41:39 <tusho> AnMaster: i think erlang has them
19:41:39 <tusho> shrug
19:41:42 <AnMaster> maybe
19:41:48 <tusho> erlang is often used for many-client internet stuffs.
19:41:53 <AnMaster> tusho, I do know a bit about ircd programming :)
19:41:54 <tusho> it's its niche
19:41:58 <AnMaster> at least as it is done in C
19:42:19 <AnMaster> tusho, and then there are outsiders like Wings3D in erlang
19:42:40 <AnMaster> I find wings3d easier to use than blender
19:42:45 <AnMaster> it can't do as much
19:42:47 <tusho> i must admit i don't see how a 3d modeler benefits from erlang's niche
19:42:49 <tusho> :P
19:42:49 <AnMaster> but what it does it does well
19:42:55 <AnMaster> tusho, well nor do I
19:42:59 <AnMaster> but point is, it works well
19:43:04 <AnMaster> polygon modelling
19:43:31 <AnMaster> I often make the models in wings, then put them together in blender and add nurbs objects and such
19:43:35 <AnMaster> and render with yafray
19:48:55 <AnMaster> oklofok, what is that straw you mentioned?
19:49:03 <oklofok> it's a language of mine
19:49:09 <AnMaster> tusho, so what shall I write next in erlang hm...
19:49:15 <AnMaster> oklofok, specs and examples?
19:49:37 <oklofok> specifically designed for pure functionality with in-place mutability
19:49:45 <AnMaster> ais523, you never posted those specs and examples of feather btw
19:49:46 <oklofok> in-place mutability?
19:49:48 <oklofok> lol
19:49:50 <AnMaster> ais523, care to do it now?
19:49:54 <ais523> AnMaster: no, because they were so misleadingly wrong
19:50:16 <AnMaster> ais523, well no way I can "get a feeling" for the language then
19:50:27 <oklofok> AnMaster: there exist none, but i may work on it tomorrow now that i finished my books
19:50:33 <ais523> well no, I'm trying to get a feeling for it myself
19:50:56 <AnMaster> anyway plan for tomorrow: finally track down that damn concurrency bug in cfunge
19:51:04 <AnMaster> then maybe start on some other erlang thing
19:51:30 <AnMaster> or implement some new fingerprint in cfunge
19:51:41 <oklofok> SUDDEN DISCONNECT !!
19:51:43 -!- oklofok has quit (Client Quit).
19:52:07 <AnMaster> ok... that didn't make much sense...
19:53:44 <tusho> optbot
19:53:44 <optbot> tusho: I love them.
19:54:55 <AnMaster> tusho, one thing I like with erlang is that it got stuff like static analyzers bundled with the standard distribution
19:55:09 <tusho> AnMaster: NOMADS!!!!!!!!
19:55:10 <AnMaster> and you can get into a gui debugger easily
19:55:17 <AnMaster> im().
19:55:19 <AnMaster> in the console
19:55:26 <AnMaster> then a few more commands to select what to debug
19:55:37 <AnMaster> tusho, you ever seen motif?
19:55:46 <tusho> AnMaster: unfortunately
19:55:46 <AnMaster> the GUI toolkit
19:55:55 <AnMaster> tusho, well it seems like erlang use it :(
19:56:08 <AnMaster> or something equally uggly
19:56:11 <AnMaster> ugly*
19:56:13 <tusho> AnMaster: for what?
19:56:26 <AnMaster> tusho, for stuff like the debugger
19:56:34 <AnMaster> and dialyzer (the static analyzer)
19:56:45 <AnMaster> let me take a screenshot
19:58:09 <tusho> http://www.dangermouse.net/prose/foxc.html
20:00:39 <AnMaster> tusho, http://omploader.org/vbzI1
20:01:12 <tusho> that's tk AnMaster
20:01:13 <AnMaster> it works well
20:01:16 <tusho> it seems
20:01:16 <AnMaster> but it is uggly
20:01:21 <AnMaster> tusho, well not sure what it is
20:01:23 <AnMaster> but it is uggly
20:01:27 <AnMaster> ugly*
20:02:02 <AnMaster> tusho, ever used wings?
20:02:19 <tusho> no
20:04:38 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vbzI3
20:04:58 <AnMaster> tusho, I think this may be a custom gui system?
20:05:17 <AnMaster> the check boxes look different
20:05:19 <AnMaster> less uggly
20:05:21 <tusho> yes
20:05:22 <tusho> custom
20:05:22 <AnMaster> ugly*
20:05:28 <AnMaster> not nice but less ugly
20:05:38 <AnMaster> tusho, why do 3D programs do that blergh
20:05:43 <AnMaster> I mean, blender does it too
20:05:46 <AnMaster> custom
20:05:48 <tusho> AnMaster: they're 1337 and totally hardcore.
20:05:49 <tusho> :P
20:06:06 <AnMaster> tusho, it makes it harder to get used to!
20:06:45 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway sure the erlang debugger doesn't use motif?
20:06:46 <fizzie> It's supposed to be difficult; if it were easy, anyone could do it.
20:07:22 <tusho> AnMaster: not sure
20:07:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, well wings3d is quite easy
20:07:53 <Deewiant> optbot!
20:07:53 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Apparently my powerful interpreters have gained notoriety :P.
20:07:55 <AnMaster> simpler than blender certainly
20:08:17 <fizzie> That much is true.
20:09:25 <fizzie> On Debian, the erlang-x11 package depends on tk. And the screenshot certainly looks tk-y.
20:10:15 <AnMaster> tusho, I believe efunge will work on Windows btw ;P
20:10:21 <AnMaster> tusho, iirc that is what you always wanted
20:10:24 <tusho> eh
20:10:25 <tusho> *hee
20:10:32 <AnMaster> *heh
20:10:32 <AnMaster> ?
20:11:08 <fizzie> (But the Tk X11 look-and-feel is modeled after Motif.)
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20:18:48 <AnMaster> tusho, is it "idiomatic" or "ideomatic"?
20:18:59 <ais523> AnMaster: idiomatic
20:19:05 <ais523> although I'm not tusho
20:19:09 <dogface_> I'm having fantasies of someone yelling "FYORR!" fortissimo at G above middle C.
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20:23:19 <AnMaster> dogface, eh?
20:23:27 <AnMaster> ais523, well I added a readme to efunge
20:23:33 <AnMaster> in case anyone want to try
20:24:13 <AnMaster> http://bzr.kuonet.org/efunge/trunk/annotate/10?file_id=readme-20080811191903-8d5vrrxfy6lsf2b2-1
20:24:27 <dogface_> Specifically, the G above middle C at the end of the line "where the lights are bright as the stars" in "Put On Your Sunday Clothes".
20:25:01 <AnMaster> dogface, what song is that?
20:25:46 <AnMaster> I never heard of it
20:25:53 <dogface_> Well, it was the one at the beginning of WALL-E.
20:26:00 <AnMaster> WALL-E?
20:26:07 <dogface_> Originally from Hello, Dolly!.
20:26:16 <AnMaster> don't know about that either
20:26:29 <dogface_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbBnXryfjg4
20:26:43 <dogface_> Just the beginning, with the two guys.
20:28:33 <AnMaster> oh my really old style
20:28:36 <AnMaster> when is it from?
20:28:50 <AnMaster> musical, feels like as old as that one "Singing in the rain"
20:29:54 <AnMaster> dogface, anyway I don't have the ability to hear exactly what tone someone is singing
20:30:14 <AnMaster> (that doesn't mean I can't play a bit of piano though
20:32:18 <pikhq> I suspect not everyone here has heard of "Hello, Dolly!".
20:33:31 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho|away.
20:34:22 <AnMaster> indeed
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20:39:54 <AnMaster> tusho|away, you linked "http://www.dangermouse.net/prose/foxc.html"
20:39:57 <AnMaster> what the heck is that
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21:39:06 <dogface_> You know, calling me (ello, rodgort) dogface rather than dogface_ pings the wrong client.
21:49:07 <ais523> hi optbot
21:49:08 <optbot> ais523: actually he could use tusho
21:49:12 -!- Mony has joined.
21:49:13 <ais523> optbot?
21:49:14 <optbot> ais523: yay!
21:49:21 <ais523> optbot: you aren't making much sense
21:49:21 <optbot> ais523: no it wasn't
21:49:25 <ais523> ...
21:49:56 <Mony> hi
21:50:02 <ais523> hi Mony
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22:00:38 <AnMaster> night all
22:00:42 <ais523> night
22:00:57 <AnMaster> dogface, it is just about tab completion
22:01:05 <AnMaster> dogface is close enough
22:01:09 * AnMaster shrugs
22:01:10 <AnMaster> night
22:03:25 -!- tusho|away has changed nick to tusho.
22:09:51 -!- oklopol has joined.
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22:30:43 <tusho> optbot: hi
22:30:43 <optbot> tusho: They were supposed to eventually crash it :P
22:31:08 <ais523> optbot always gets me when someone activates it out of thin air, I wonder what on earth the subject of the conversation is now
22:31:09 <optbot> ais523: with 1 bit sign, 100 bit exponent and 200bit value
22:31:22 <ais523> optbot!
22:31:22 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | !fybs ?.
22:31:24 <ais523> optbot!
22:31:25 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Wassup Slereah (If that was aimed at me :) ).
22:31:27 <ais523> optbot!
22:31:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | the random -> 000...0 thing.
22:31:33 <ais523> ok, I'll leave it as it is now
22:31:36 <ais523> that's a good topic
22:33:16 <Mony> optbot.... really ? OO
22:33:16 <optbot> Mony: (I only have 807 comment karma too. People just can't accept someone who's INFALLABLY RIGHT)
22:33:24 <Mony> whaou
22:33:43 <ais523> is that French for "wow"?
22:34:04 <Mony> yeah
22:35:19 -!- RedDak has joined.
22:51:48 <pikhq> I'm surprised it doesn't have more consonants.
22:58:00 <tusho> whawowuw
23:12:40 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"").
23:21:53 <pikhq> No, no, no.
23:22:23 <pikhq> l'whaouxe.
23:22:24 <pikhq> :p
23:23:16 <tusho> :D
23:26:43 <pikhq> Okay, so it's not like I can criticise French for having terribly obtuse spelling...
23:27:00 <tusho> pikhq: hehehe
23:28:39 <pikhq> Given that English is orders of magnitude worse, courtesy of its status as a (calling all linguists: the following classification is a *joke*) Romantic Germanic Celtic language, with hints of all other language families thrown in for good measure.
23:38:15 <tusho> Romantic Germanic Celtic Icic
23:48:35 <pikhq> Icic?
23:48:45 <tusho> pikhq: Yes.
23:48:47 <tusho> Icic.
23:49:42 <oklopol> ```icic
23:50:15 <pikhq> ?
23:50:32 * pikhq thinks you're full of it. Or full of unlambda.
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23:51:02 <oklopol> i'm full of meatballs
23:51:16 <tusho> pikhq: Define it.
23:52:34 <pikhq> I can't...
23:52:44 <pikhq> In case you hadn't noticed, I was *asking* for a definition.
23:53:40 <pikhq> "Fhqwgads." "Fhqwgads?" "Yes. Fhqwgads." "I think you're full of it." "Define fhqgwgads." "?!?"
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23:55:38 <tusho> pikhq: No, define "it"
23:59:42 <oklopol> ah the classic quotation joke!

2008-08-12:

00:00:44 <pikhq> Intentional vagueness is not humor.
00:01:00 <pikhq> It is an offense punishable by death.
00:01:10 <tusho> pikhq: So's your face.
00:01:12 <tusho> And that's what SHE said!
00:01:49 <pikhq> http://www.xkcd.com/169/
00:01:58 <Mony> 'night
00:02:30 <tusho> pikhq: I was being very specific.
00:02:34 <tusho> i was asking what I was full of.
00:03:06 <pikhq> You suck at punctuation.
00:03:11 <pikhq> And for that, you die.
00:04:23 <tusho> pikhq: Hey, I have an idea. Let's make people die for various unimportant reasons.
00:05:19 <pikhq> "Hey, you there!" "Yeah?" "You're in front of me." *bang*
00:05:42 <pikhq> :)
00:06:09 <tusho> "Hi, how are you?" *bang* "How dare you use abbreviations like 'hi'. The English language demands blood."
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00:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | tix=0 tid=0 x=4 y=6:   (32).
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03:06:01 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
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04:40:43 <Slereah_> Eso people!
04:40:47 <Slereah_> Tell me!
04:40:54 <Slereah_> Tell me what the fuck is this shit.
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06:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you want to use abs() or arg() (or corresponding maxima functions) if you want to see the strange-ness I mentioned..
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07:53:23 <asiekierka> Hi
07:53:29 <asiekierka> I'm making a Tap Code interpreter/decoder in BF
07:53:42 -!- kar8nga has joined.
07:54:01 <asiekierka> I wonder how to check if a value is more than 10, because if it is, i need to add 1 to it
07:55:14 <asiekierka> oh wait
07:55:17 <asiekierka> i found how maybe
07:55:26 <asiekierka> or not
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08:29:19 <asiekierka> lol, ASM to BF
08:29:21 <asiekierka> hard to hard
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09:17:23 <AnMaster> morning
09:18:34 <AnMaster> <optbot> Mony: (I only have 807 comment karma too. People just can't accept someone who's INFALLABLY RIGHT)
09:18:34 <optbot> AnMaster: modern mail clients, probably including gmail, make it really difficult not to :(
09:18:39 <AnMaster> that sounds like tusho saying it
09:23:17 <asiekierka> hi
09:23:27 <asiekierka> I wonder what can i make in BF
09:23:29 <asiekierka> Maybe a game?
09:27:27 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you could make almost anything, after all brainfuck is turing complete
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09:34:43 <asiekierka> AnMaster: But a BF game!
09:34:55 <asiekierka> A non-text adventure BF Game is impossible
09:35:00 <asiekierka> since there's no command like, delay
09:35:10 <asiekierka> Heh
09:35:32 <asiekierka> If there was a delay command, EVERYTHING would be possible
09:36:42 <AnMaster> asiekierka, hm? you could wait for input if that is what you mean
09:37:00 <asiekierka> Possibly
09:37:04 <AnMaster> and a turn based game with ASCII art like nethack is perfectly possible
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09:37:11 <asiekierka> Yes
09:37:16 <asiekierka> But what about a game needing timing
09:37:31 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well that would need more advanced IO, like async IO
09:37:38 <asiekierka> Or just one more command
09:37:46 <asiekierka> | - delay for 1/60th of a second
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09:43:50 <AnMaster> asiekierka, not really, you will still block on user inpuyt
09:43:52 <AnMaster> input*
09:43:58 <AnMaster> so it will still be turn based
09:45:04 <AnMaster> wait I just got an idea for making Funge98 sound enterprisy!
09:46:00 <oklopol> you will always find IO shit you need to make new stuff possible
09:46:01 <AnMaster> 'Concurrent Funge-98, features advanced "green threads"'
09:46:03 <AnMaster> user space ones
09:46:04 <AnMaster> :)
09:46:11 <oklopol> adding | will not let you shoot lazers.
09:46:12 <AnMaster> you could probably extend that
09:46:26 <AnMaster> "no need for special sync primitives"
09:46:27 <AnMaster> and so on
09:46:49 <asiekierka> I think i will make something BF-like but simpler
09:46:53 <asiekierka> i meant
09:46:55 <asiekierka> nethack-like
09:47:03 <asiekierka> Input will need to be the map, then user input
09:47:04 <oklopol> do it !
09:47:17 <asiekierka> Also
09:47:27 <asiekierka> my friend is doing a BF selfbooting floppy disk
09:47:28 <asiekierka> For now
09:47:33 <asiekierka> it'll support up to 64KB of BF code
09:47:35 <asiekierka> enough?
09:47:40 <AnMaster> asiekierka, not really
09:47:46 <AnMaster> lostkingdom is around 2 MB iirc?
09:47:49 <AnMaster> isn't it?
09:47:54 <asiekierka> JUST lostkingdom
09:47:56 <asiekierka> and yeah
09:48:03 <asiekierka> but it wouldn't fit on a floppy drive anyway
09:48:24 <AnMaster> 2.1 MB
09:48:40 <asiekierka> and a floppy disk
09:48:42 <asiekierka> is 1.44MB
09:48:45 <AnMaster> true
09:48:45 <asiekierka> so forget about it
09:49:01 <asiekierka> Maybe if the author will convert the un-enhanced version
09:49:08 <asiekierka> And my friend will get rid of the 64kb limit
09:49:09 <AnMaster> hm
09:49:10 <asiekierka> both unlikely
09:49:11 <oklopol> you can trivially compress it into a meg
09:49:16 <oklopol> into bf bytecode
09:49:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah yes
09:49:25 <asiekierka> BF bytecode, yeah
09:49:27 <asiekierka> but no
09:49:32 <AnMaster> and you can optimize it in various ways
09:50:05 <AnMaster> for example I generated a C version from it, optimized but used a lot of space for other reasons, the binary was around as large as the source
09:50:07 <asiekierka> I think we could just ask the author to convert the original non-extended version
09:50:14 <AnMaster> but the compiler did all kinds of optimizing
09:50:22 <asiekierka> Since most of the bonus space is long room version text
09:50:24 <AnMaster> like combining ++-- and <> and so on
09:50:33 <asiekierka> Oh yeah
09:50:38 <asiekierka> and from a BFBASIC direct conversion
09:50:42 <asiekierka> we can except that stuff, right
09:50:45 <asiekierka> With a simple filter
09:50:46 <AnMaster> oh and [-] -> "zero cell"
09:50:51 <asiekierka> copying only BF chars, without newlines and stuff
09:50:58 <asiekierka> i got it down by 50kb
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09:51:05 <AnMaster> asiekierka, yeah that too
09:51:14 <AnMaster> but what I talked about was very un-bft
09:51:17 <AnMaster> bfy*
09:51:31 <AnMaster> as it replaced +++ with "add 3"
09:52:05 <AnMaster> if the number of > and < in a loop is balanced you could probably optimize that too
09:52:08 <AnMaster> by renumbering
09:53:01 <AnMaster> say [+>-<+] could be changed into [>-<++] which could then be changed into "substract 1 from next cell, add two to current cell"
09:53:29 <AnMaster> so the resulting code didn't even need to move the pointer
09:53:35 <Mony> hi
09:54:06 <AnMaster> yet I haven't figured out a good algorithm to do it
09:54:52 <asiekierka> about my turnbased map thing, it wouldnt be that easy
09:54:56 <asiekierka> Or it will
09:55:09 <AnMaster> asiekierka, programming in a tarpit is never easy IMO
09:55:17 <asiekierka> I can store it like: Xsize, Ysize, playerx, playery, (map for X*Y cells)
09:55:31 <asiekierka> Also, i dont know BF well yet
09:55:48 <AnMaster> well it is pretty easy, just 8 instructions :P
09:56:16 <asiekierka> but as in
09:56:22 <asiekierka> i dont know ways to do cool stuff in it yet
09:56:33 <AnMaster> well that is the hard bit :P
09:57:06 <asiekierka> Im still slightly wondering how to check whether a value is 10 or more. I thought subtracting 9 from it, but that wouldn't work if the value is < 9
09:58:21 <asiekierka> Subtracting while checking if it goes zero? Uh, no. I'd need to check the other value too.
09:58:58 <asiekierka> brb, going to toy around with Portals
10:45:10 <asiekierka> ok
10:45:11 <asiekierka> backkkk
10:45:26 <asiekierka> Is there a good brainfuck tutorial
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10:57:11 <AnMaster> no clue
10:57:15 <AnMaster> I prefer befunge
10:59:02 <asiekierka> I am going to make a BF Function Collection
10:59:05 <asiekierka> collection of BF functions
11:02:43 <oklopol> what algos were you thinking?
11:02:52 <oklopol> there's a bunch in existance already on esolangs.org
11:03:43 <oklopol> asiekierka: Subtracting while checking if it goes zero? Uh, no. I'd need to check the other value too. <<< what other value?
11:05:29 <asiekierka> Everything
11:05:32 <asiekierka> Every useful piece of code
11:06:01 <asiekierka> But something like that
11:07:22 <asiekierka> +[>
11:07:22 <asiekierka> ,>,[>+++++<-]<[->>+<<]>>> now we have the tap code value in cell 3; Yay
11:07:31 <asiekierka> That's what i did before i was stuck
11:07:39 <asiekierka> how to check if the value is larger than 10
11:07:41 <oklopol> tap code?
11:07:45 <asiekierka> Yes.
11:07:53 <asiekierka> It doesn't have K and substitutes C for K
11:07:53 <oklopol> now what is that?
11:08:08 <asiekierka> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_Code
11:08:08 <asiekierka> :(
11:08:12 <oklopol> ...lice this?
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11:08:22 <asiekierka> Yes
11:08:30 <oklopol> k.
11:08:33 <asiekierka> Centrainly, you're right, oclopol.
11:08:37 <asiekierka> And since K isn't there
11:08:43 <asiekierka> and J is at position 10, K isn't there, so L is at 11
11:08:46 <asiekierka> Oops! A problem
11:09:05 <asiekierka> If the tap code position value is greather than 10, i must add one to it
11:09:09 <asiekierka> otherwise leave it ALONE
11:09:18 <oklopol> what?
11:09:26 <oklopol> don't you just find all k's and substitute c for them?
11:09:30 <asiekierka> No.
11:09:42 <asiekierka> Not that easy.
11:09:51 <asiekierka> A=1, B=2, C=3... got it?
11:09:52 <asiekierka> J=10
11:09:59 <asiekierka> K isn't there, L=11... ha.
11:10:09 <asiekierka> Normally, it'll be K=11, L=12
11:10:15 <asiekierka> And i'm decoding tap code
11:10:17 <asiekierka> not ENcoding
11:11:10 <oklopol> well tap code wasn't just english with k->c
11:11:17 <oklopol> this i didn't know
11:11:26 <asiekierka> And it works like this
11:11:40 <oklopol> i know how it wors
11:11:42 <oklopol> *works
11:11:49 <oklopol> now that the wikipedia page opened
11:11:59 <asiekierka> That's why i need to check if x > 10
11:12:02 <asiekierka> without destroying it
11:12:21 <asiekierka> If it is, add one to x
11:12:28 <asiekierka> If it is not, leave x alone
11:12:51 <asiekierka> You can use every cell after cell 3
11:13:08 <asiekierka> counting from cell 0
11:13:24 <oklopol> -[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[current cell != 0, add 10 to get original]]]]]]]]]]
11:13:41 <asiekierka> But it can't be just != 0
11:13:48 <asiekierka> This isn't enough
11:13:53 <asiekierka> Oh wait
11:14:00 <oklopol> if it goes in, it was more than 10.
11:14:14 <oklopol> if not, then it either already was in, or it was less than 10
11:14:30 <asiekierka> Ok
11:14:34 <oklopol> when you go in, you can set up a flag to signify you were in, so when you get out, you can check whether you were in
11:14:39 <oklopol> this is a simple way to do if's
11:14:52 <asiekierka> What if it doesn't go in? How to get the value back to normal
11:14:55 <asiekierka> wait, i can just copy it
11:14:59 <asiekierka> If i dont get inside the loop
11:15:03 <asiekierka> I can just re-copy the value
11:15:23 <oklopol> if it doesn't go in, current cell has become 0.
11:15:30 <oklopol> and yes
11:15:31 <oklopol> exactly
11:16:42 <asiekierka> Now let me think.
11:16:58 <asiekierka> Ok.
11:17:26 <asiekierka> I needed to check how to skip the second code part if i executed the first one
11:17:28 <asiekierka> A flag
11:17:29 <asiekierka> :)
11:20:35 <asiekierka> Oh, nearly done.
11:20:53 <asiekierka> Now i must add 65 to the output value, output it, return to cell 0 and close the loop. Yay.
11:20:59 <asiekierka> Writing the rest of code
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11:24:49 <oklopol> one out of 1542623412 of all possible functions done then.
11:24:59 <asiekierka> Now debugging
11:25:01 <asiekierka> lolololol
11:25:08 <asiekierka> Since i think I did something wrong
11:25:20 <asiekierka> I must check if i followed all the cell positions correctly
11:25:26 <asiekierka> I think i'm adding A to the wrong place
11:25:38 <asiekierka> Oh
11:25:47 <asiekierka> I forgot to decrase 48 from both values
11:26:32 <oklopol> o
11:26:57 <asiekierka> But thats not the problem
11:28:20 <asiekierka> 1) The first loop (multiplying) wasnt executed at all.
11:29:04 <tusho> i love it when I wake up to an alive #esoteric!
11:29:04 <tusho> :)
11:29:42 <asiekierka> oklopol, must fix your bit
11:32:32 <asiekierka> Fixing
11:32:36 <asiekierka> currently half of code fixed
11:33:20 <asiekierka> OMG
11:33:23 <asiekierka> IT'S DONE
11:33:35 <asiekierka> except that i must add 3 characters near the end:
11:33:36 <asiekierka> [-]
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11:34:09 <asiekierka> hopefully i have this bffilter app my friend made for me
11:34:21 <asiekierka> it filters everything, only the bf chars go through
11:35:11 <asiekierka> 174 bytes for a tap code decoder
11:37:52 <asiekierka> nope
11:37:59 <asiekierka> when fixed everything (a one-time run now)
11:38:02 <asiekierka> it's 162 bytes
11:38:06 <asiekierka> But it only works on BrainfuckMachine
11:38:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure I'd call a brainfuck filter an "app", given that you can just pipe your file through something like ... | perl -pne 's/[^,.<>\[\]+-]//g' | ...
11:38:17 <asiekierka> right
11:38:20 <asiekierka> but i dont have perl :P
11:38:35 <asiekierka> it's not a real app
11:38:37 <asiekierka> an utility
11:38:51 <fizzie> Bhrrrr. I'd feel all lost and alone on a system without a Perl.
11:39:20 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/UlJIr252.html
11:39:25 <asiekierka> can anyone test it on his machine
11:39:38 <asiekierka> Input numbers: 3 and 2, respectively
11:39:44 <asiekierka> as in, ascii chars "3" and "2"
11:39:48 <asiekierka> should output N
11:40:18 <asiekierka> oh wait it works
11:40:30 <asiekierka> you dont need to test
11:40:40 <asiekierka> Oh wait
11:40:49 <fizzie> It does seem to work.
11:40:50 <tusho> fizzie: He's on windows.
11:41:09 <asiekierka> The first line doesnt work
11:41:13 <asiekierka> it always outputs A
11:41:23 <asiekierka> if you use 3, 1; 4, 1; etc
11:41:44 <fizzie> Hey, I found the brainfuck interpreter I wrote for the C programming course homework.
11:41:56 <asiekierka> My program is very buggy AFAIK though
11:42:01 <asiekierka> But it's my first BF program
11:42:03 <fizzie> main(j,a,n,t)int*a;{unsigned short p=-1;char*r=calloc(n=p+1,6),*i=r+n,**k=i+n;for(read(open(*++a,t=0),i,p);n=*i-43,t<0?n-48?n-50||++t:--t:n?n-2?n-19?n-17?n-3?n-48?n-50?n-1||read(0,r+p,1):p[r]?i=k[j]:j--:p[r]?k[++j]=i:t--:putchar(p[r]):p--:p++:p[r]--:p[r]++,*i++;);}
11:42:04 <asiekierka> so let's do a YAY
11:42:40 <tusho> asiekierka: Er, you've been nabbing on about organizing brainfuck contests and thinking of various large projects (like games) to code in BF since 2007.
11:42:49 <tusho> And you've only just wrote your first trivial brainfuck program?
11:42:56 <asiekierka> Yeeeesss... i think
11:43:02 * tusho facepalm
11:43:07 <asiekierka> you mean
11:43:15 <asiekierka> oh wait
11:43:19 <asiekierka> no, nothing
11:43:30 <asiekierka> Maybe i did something else
11:43:37 <asiekierka> but i don't really recall
11:43:48 <tusho> fizzie: As the other active person, can you share in my facepalm?
11:43:53 <tusho> One just doesn't seem to be enough
11:43:58 <asiekierka> :/
11:44:11 <tusho> :p
11:44:21 <asiekierka> But no, seriously. I just liked the BF concept
11:44:26 <asiekierka> but was too lazy to do something in it
11:44:32 <asiekierka> I was learning all the esolangs in 2007
11:44:35 <tusho> asiekierka: perhaps you should focus on the text editor instead of the irc window :)
11:44:38 <asiekierka> s/learning/reading about
11:44:48 <asiekierka> in 2008 i continued it
11:45:04 <asiekierka> Now i was finally bored enough to make a BF app.
11:45:21 <asiekierka> also, does optbot have bf running functionality
11:45:22 <optbot> asiekierka: hush tusho
11:45:36 <asiekierka> hash tusho? okay
11:45:41 <tusho> hush
11:45:45 <asiekierka> i know
11:45:49 <asiekierka> but i just dont get "hush tusho"
11:46:02 <tusho> probably psygnisfive said it to me when I was talking
11:46:06 <tusho> he doesn't like me talking, generally.
11:46:14 <asiekierka> But tusho, does optbot have BF code running functionality?
11:46:14 <optbot> asiekierka: i might just try that CW6670 one
11:46:20 <tusho> asiekierka: yes. just ask it
11:46:52 <asiekierka> optbot, !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
11:46:52 <optbot> asiekierka: too bad you can't use UPnP or whatever
11:46:57 <asiekierka> :(
11:47:00 <asiekierka> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
11:47:08 <asiekierka> Nope.
11:47:09 <tusho> asiekierka: you have to ask him in plain english!
11:47:14 <tusho> he has an AI...
11:47:17 <asiekierka> I know you're lying
11:47:20 <asiekierka> I know you're lying
11:47:24 <tusho> well, I'm not
11:47:26 <tusho> but fine
11:47:30 <asiekierka> Try it, then
11:47:32 <tusho> be without brainfuck code running functionality
11:47:40 <tusho> optbot: Can you interpret BF?
11:47:40 <optbot> tusho: Swhacks were voluntary point deduction.
11:47:48 <asiekierka> Uh
11:47:52 <asiekierka> i thought it has an AI
11:47:56 <tusho> it does
11:47:57 <asiekierka> or at least
11:47:58 <asiekierka> you told me
11:48:01 <asiekierka> Ok
11:48:03 <tusho> it just has operating hours
11:48:06 <asiekierka> :(
11:48:09 <tusho> it makes sense every now and then
11:48:13 <asiekierka> Im just going to put up my own BF bot here
11:48:13 <tusho> and spews crap all the other times
11:48:23 <tusho> why not just use optbot
11:48:24 <optbot> tusho: to python
11:48:28 <asiekierka> optbot, do you love tusho?
11:48:28 <optbot> asiekierka: would it go 50 times faster?
11:48:32 <tusho> LMAO
11:48:48 <asiekierka> optbot, if you love him, it will
11:48:49 <optbot> asiekierka: >>> bf ,[.,] <<< ?infinite loop
11:48:57 <asiekierka> Haha
11:48:58 <asiekierka> he made sense
11:49:02 <asiekierka> no
11:49:03 <asiekierka> he made sense
11:49:06 <asiekierka> i didn't make sense at all
11:49:41 <asiekierka> I need to put up a BF bot here
11:49:50 <asiekierka> how to run raw .java files?
11:49:56 <asiekierka> do you need to compile them
11:50:02 <asiekierka> oh wait
11:50:05 <asiekierka> i have a bf interpreter for mirc
11:50:10 <asiekierka> maybe
11:51:22 <fizzie> I pasted a C brainfuck interpreter just few lines ago; does your Perl-less system also lack a C compiler?
11:51:28 <asiekierka> no
11:51:31 <asiekierka> i have a C compiler
11:51:53 <asiekierka> Also, i need to make an OS for BF
11:52:05 <asiekierka> I will need a BF self-interpreter for it xD
11:52:19 <Sgeo> Bye all
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11:52:25 <tusho> fizzie: He wants it as an irc bot.
11:52:43 <tusho> fizzie: Also, now that he has written his first trivial BF program, seems he is back to aspirations of writing an OS in it.
11:52:56 <asiekierka> Not necessairly
11:53:00 <fizzie> Well, his mirc script can execute the compiled C interpreter. Or something.
11:53:01 <asiekierka> Just fantasying around
11:53:40 <tusho> Hmm.
11:53:55 <tusho> Sketch for a very short brainfuck interp in C:
11:54:15 <tusho> Implement each instruction in asm.
11:54:20 <tusho> Then, have a character array with it all in
11:54:26 <tusho> (pad it out with nops so they're all the same length)
11:54:44 <tusho> Then do some modulo stuff into the table and cast it to a function and call it or something.
11:54:46 <tusho> I don't know. :P
11:55:31 <fizzie> I'm not convinced it would be much shorter than, say, my 270-character one.
11:56:51 <tusho> fizzie: Well, [[main="machine code";]] would probably be shorter. :P
11:57:42 <tusho> Hmm...
11:57:47 <tusho> How do you say "return 0" in machine code...
11:58:00 <tusho> x86 obviously
11:58:15 <fizzie> Depends on the calling convention. Usually something like "mov eax, 0; ret"
11:58:26 <tusho> Yes, I know the asm.
11:58:32 <tusho> I guess I'll just have to assemble it huh
11:58:33 <tusho> :P
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11:59:59 <fizzie> 0x66, 0x31, 0xc0, 0xc3.
12:00:15 <tusho> Hmm.
12:00:15 <fizzie> If you do xor eax, eax; ret. The 'mov' instruction is longer, what with the four-byte literal in there.
12:00:21 <tusho> Ah. :P
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12:01:03 <tusho> So: "f1\300\303"
12:01:23 <tusho> Hmph.
12:01:23 <tusho> zsh: illegal hardware instruction  ./a.out
12:02:42 <fizzie> Actually I think it might be just "0x31 0xc0 0xc3" in the normal automatically-32-bit x86 mode. I'm not sure of my nasm flags.
12:02:59 <tusho> fizzie: The \0 that C puts at the end of strings wouldn't break it, would it?
12:03:31 <tusho> No. Seems not.
12:03:57 <tusho> Geh. Same error.
12:04:03 * tusho main(){return 0;}
12:04:05 <tusho> er
12:04:08 <tusho> main(){return 0;}
12:04:11 <tusho> main="foobarbaz";
12:04:16 <tusho> Hmm.
12:04:23 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
12:04:23 <tusho> Looks like I'm not saving much if anything. :P
12:04:48 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
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12:10:07 <fizzie> I couldn't get a raw-assembler .c file that GCC would bother compiling without doing:
12:10:11 <fizzie>   char main[3] __attribute__ ((section (".text"))) = "1\300\303";
12:10:25 <fizzie> (It wanted to segfault without the section attribute.)
12:10:31 <tusho> fizzie: Hmph.
12:10:34 <tusho> That kind of sucks.
12:10:41 <tusho> Wasn't there an IOCCC entry that took the form:
12:10:43 <tusho> main="...";?
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12:11:08 <fizzie> Haven't seen, but could be. I'm not sure if x86_64 is a bit pickier with this stuff, anyway.
12:11:32 <tusho> hahahahh linkinus grabs ops when it c an
12:11:33 <tusho> [12:11:08] ← asiekierka left the channel. ()
12:11:33 <tusho> [12:11:08] ← tusho left the channel. ("Boing!")
12:11:33 <tusho> [12:11:08] → tusho joined the channel.
12:11:44 <tusho> as soon as the channel goes empty it seems to cycle to get ops
12:12:08 <fizzie> An opportunistic client.
12:12:32 <asiekierka> you know i wouldnt come in that channel back anyway
12:12:40 <asiekierka> and who'd even like to have a channel #lold
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12:29:51 <asiekierka> Inspired by the newest userfriendly comic: "I need an esoteric language that will make me into a millionaire. Can you code it for me?"
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12:32:55 <asiekierka> Crashed mIRC with /brainfuck +[].
12:32:58 <asiekierka> Was bored.
12:33:46 <asiekierka> what you worked on in esolangs lastly?
12:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | simply.
12:41:58 <asiekierka> optbot!
12:41:59 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i'm too tired to implement any trig functions.
12:42:09 <asiekierka> optbot!
12:42:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | the pencil sharpener in my biology classroom is so good that the PPS is actually blowing out of the pencil sharpener, so that if you put a pencil too close to it, the pencil becomes sharpened..
12:42:20 <asiekierka> that stays
12:45:21 <asiekierka> I hate it when i'm back and everyone is off
12:47:22 <tusho> meh
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13:34:00 <asiekierka> If you were given a chance to buy something computer-related, but only one thing, no matter how much it costs, what would you buy?
13:34:45 <tusho> asiekierka: a machine that can make any machine
13:34:59 <asiekierka> but the thing you want to get
13:35:00 <asiekierka> must exist
13:35:02 <asiekierka> right now
13:35:07 <asiekierka> or
13:35:10 <asiekierka> it could be from the past
13:35:11 <asiekierka> or the present
13:35:13 <asiekierka> but NOT the future
13:35:39 <tusho> asiekierka: I'd wait until someone made such a machine.
13:35:52 <asiekierka> But you'll be given a chance only for one day
13:35:59 <asiekierka> I'd personally buy a supercomputer
13:36:15 <asiekierka> the #1 or #2 supercomputer on the TOP 500 list
13:36:23 <asiekierka> Then i'll set it to compute BF programs
13:36:26 <asiekierka> and go to sleep...
13:36:54 <asiekierka> i wake up, and there waits a 1GB BF program
13:36:59 <asiekierka> That is in fact a port of NetHack.
13:37:04 <asiekierka> with a lot of bonuses
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14:12:14 <asiekierka> I'm bored.
14:12:18 <asiekierka> Any ideas on what to do?
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14:14:33 <tusho> asiekierka: go outside
14:14:39 <asiekierka> can't
14:14:42 <tusho> why
14:14:46 <asiekierka> i'm alone in the house, it's locked
14:14:50 <asiekierka> can't go outside
14:14:51 <tusho> ah
14:14:55 <asiekierka>  I meant
14:14:58 <asiekierka> something in BF maybe
14:15:03 <asiekierka> as i have like, 2-3 hours of free time
14:15:17 <tusho> not that many BF programs that are yet to be written by now :P
14:15:29 <asiekierka> What is there left to do
14:15:41 <asiekierka> except optimizing "hello world" of course
14:16:03 <tusho> egobot has pretty much got hello world down
14:16:08 <tusho> as far as optimizing goes
14:16:33 <asiekierka> what's the smallest BF code that says "Hello World!" then
14:17:10 <asiekierka> also wheres egobot
14:18:25 <tusho> 1. esowiki page
14:18:28 <tusho> 2. gone
14:19:16 <asiekierka> I have a smaller hello world
14:19:44 <asiekierka> 113bytes
14:19:56 <tusho> use the genetic evolution thing
14:20:12 <asiekierka> wait, BF has a "genetic evolution thing"?
14:20:29 <Slereah_> Only if it could reproduce
14:20:50 <asiekierka> ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
14:20:56 <asiekierka> Is there a way to optimize THAT hello world?
14:21:01 <asiekierka> i found in my collection
14:21:07 <asiekierka> is there a smaller one
14:21:10 <tusho> i think so.
14:21:19 <tusho> i've seen a 104-byte
14:21:21 <tusho> from egobot
14:22:23 <asiekierka> no, its not mine
14:22:28 <asiekierka> What
14:22:31 <asiekierka> a 104-byte
14:22:36 <asiekierka> Oh god
14:22:51 <asiekierka> Egobot must be back. NOW.
14:26:35 <tusho> asiekierka: you are obsessing over BF too much
14:27:14 <asiekierka> But i like BF
14:27:26 <asiekierka> Ok
14:27:34 <tusho> asiekierka: it's a good language but there are other esolangs...
14:27:35 <asiekierka> So propose me another esolang to obsess over
14:27:42 <tusho> how about underload
14:27:43 <tusho> or befunge
14:27:47 <asiekierka> Befunge is out
14:27:48 <tusho> SNUSP
14:27:48 <tusho> Path
14:27:51 <tusho> and why
14:27:55 <asiekierka> SNUSP and Path are ones of my favs
14:28:00 <asiekierka> Befunge has too many commands
14:28:04 <tusho> no it doesn't
14:28:07 <tusho> and that's a ridiculous reason
14:28:27 <asiekierka> in my opinion it has too much
14:28:31 <Deewiant> 106 bytes: ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.
14:28:37 <tusho> asiekierka: Esoteric != "has little commands."
14:28:41 <tusho> That's called a tarpit.
14:28:45 <asiekierka> Oh
14:28:45 <tusho> There is interestingness beyond tarpits
14:28:46 <Deewiant> (from http://helloworldsite.he.funpic.de/hello.htm#BrainFuck )
14:28:52 <asiekierka> so i like Turing tarpits then.
14:29:11 <tusho> asiekierka: And turing tarpits tend to be the least interesting esolangs.
14:29:23 <asiekierka> I like them the most
14:29:29 <asiekierka> Also, useful joke languages.
14:29:41 <asiekierka> (like any exist)
14:29:46 <Deewiant> (like Befunge)
14:29:53 <tusho> don't be surprised if people don't seem to respond to you then.
14:30:01 <tusho> most of us are bored of tarpits by now
14:30:13 <asiekierka> I'm bored of being bored
14:30:19 <tusho> we can tell
14:30:22 <tusho> or at least I can
14:30:45 <asiekierka> No, srsly, befunge has a little too much stuff for me
14:30:52 <asiekierka> It can do everything
14:30:53 <asiekierka> But
14:30:55 <asiekierka> But...
14:31:07 <tusho> asiekierka please look up the befunge page on the wiki
14:31:12 <asiekierka> I'm looking
14:31:25 <tusho> if that has too many commands your taste in esolangs is terminally boring
14:31:45 <asiekierka> 36 (or 27 if you count 0-9 as one).
14:31:48 <asiekierka> Compare it to 8.
14:32:34 <asiekierka> also
14:32:47 <asiekierka> i would need to get a selfbootable befunge interpreter
14:32:48 <asiekierka> then
14:32:58 <tusho> asiekierka: HAVING A FEW COMMANDS DOES NOT MAKE AN ESOLANG BAD
14:33:09 <tusho> HAVING TO RUN AN INTERPRETER ON AN OPERATING SYSTEM DOES NOT MAKE AN ESOLANG BAD EITHER
14:33:12 <tusho> jee
14:33:12 <tusho> z
14:34:01 <asiekierka> BEING AN IDIOT DOES NOT MAKE A PERSON BAD EITHER
14:34:25 <asiekierka> But oh well
14:34:30 <asiekierka> I will do something in Befunge
14:34:32 <asiekierka> If you want
14:34:35 <tusho> asiekierka: are you calling me an idiot?
14:34:40 <tusho> well, thanks
14:34:44 <asiekierka> no
14:34:46 <asiekierka> i'm calling myself
14:34:47 <asiekierka> an idiot
14:34:59 <asiekierka> because i behave like one
14:35:04 <asiekierka> saying 25 commands is too much
14:35:22 <asiekierka> and staying with BF
14:35:22 <tusho> why do you always call yourself an idio
14:35:23 <tusho> t
14:35:27 <tusho> you spend like half of your time doing that
14:35:39 <asiekierka> Because everyone convinces me i am
14:36:25 <asiekierka> Also
14:36:29 <asiekierka> is there a befunge tutorial
14:37:07 <tusho> not sure
14:37:08 <tusho> probably
14:37:50 <asiekierka> there is
14:40:28 <asiekierka> ugh
14:40:32 <asiekierka> Two links failed
14:40:36 <asiekierka> (for an interpreter
14:40:42 <asiekierka> )
14:40:50 <asiekierka> three!
14:40:54 <asiekierka> yayz :/
14:41:08 <asiekierka> finally found something
14:41:16 <tusho> i think cfunge can interpret -93 as well as -98
14:41:16 <tusho> :P
14:42:10 <asiekierka> Ok
14:42:19 <asiekierka> made a Tap Code decoder in Befunge (nearly)
14:44:25 <tusho> that was quick
14:44:37 <asiekierka> but i must fix the "K" problem
14:44:39 <asiekierka> now
14:45:55 <asiekierka> &6%&6%5*88*1+++,
14:45:57 <asiekierka> the code for now
14:46:05 <asiekierka> It works nearly
14:46:08 <asiekierka> now to fix the K
14:46:29 <asiekierka> Now i must learn how to use IFs
14:47:08 <Deewiant> 88*1+ -> "A" (or 'A for Funge-98)
14:47:14 <asiekierka> yes
14:47:36 <asiekierka> it is in the 0-4 array
14:47:50 <asiekierka> change &6%&6% to &5%&5%
14:49:09 <asiekierka> Compare this to...
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14:49:28 <asiekierka> Back
14:49:30 <asiekierka> well
14:49:32 <asiekierka> compare my befunge code with...
14:49:34 <asiekierka> ,>++++++++[<------>-],>++++++++[<------>-]<[>+++++<-]<[->>+<<]>>[->+>+<<]>>[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[+++++++++++>+>]]]]]]]]]]]<[-<[-]<[->+<]>>]++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+.
14:49:37 <asiekierka> ...this.
14:49:46 <asiekierka> And i'm using befunge-93!
14:49:58 <tusho> asiekierka: Yes. :P
14:50:04 <tusho> Hmm.
14:50:10 <tusho> Offtopic, what would you people use to register a .se domain?
14:50:25 <tusho> All the registrars I've found either are ridiculously expensive or don't let you change the nameservers
14:50:29 <tusho> (for a friend)
14:50:29 <asiekierka> ihatewindows98.se
14:50:32 <asiekierka> haha
14:50:35 <asiekierka> or
14:50:38 <asiekierka> ilikewindows98.se
14:50:56 <asiekierka> or
14:51:02 <asiekierka> myfriendisslimniceandwi.se
14:52:21 <asiekierka> Or
14:52:26 <asiekierka> iwanttobewi.se
14:52:27 <asiekierka> or
14:52:35 <asiekierka> tusho_is_slim_and_wi.se
14:52:37 <asiekierka> or
14:52:40 <asiekierka> esolangs_are_wi.se
14:52:45 <asiekierka> or... i'm out of ideas
14:54:27 <asiekierka> I'm going to move to befunge-98
14:54:31 <asiekierka> Or should i stay at -93?
14:54:57 <asiekierka> hello?
14:55:35 <tusho> asiekierka: a registrar
14:55:36 <tusho> not a domain
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15:01:26 <asiekierka> untested finished tap code decoder for befunge-93:
15:01:27 <asiekierka> &5%&5%5*88*1+++:52*`v
15:01:27 <asiekierka>                  v+1_v
15:01:27 <asiekierka>                 @,   <
15:01:27 <asiekierka>                  @
15:01:47 <asiekierka> And this one
15:01:49 <asiekierka> actually works!
15:02:17 <asiekierka> minimised it to 3 lines
15:02:18 <asiekierka> Compare that
15:02:21 <asiekierka> with
15:02:21 <asiekierka> my BF code
15:02:24 <asiekierka> Please.
15:02:33 <asiekierka> the code is tested and works
15:02:47 <AnMaster> lets see... *reads b93 code*
15:03:06 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what is it trying to do
15:03:22 <asiekierka> Wait
15:03:24 <asiekierka> it's broken!
15:03:26 <AnMaster> you take two numbers, modulo 5
15:03:30 <asiekierka> actually
15:03:37 <AnMaster> then multiply the last with 5
15:03:48 <asiekierka> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_Code
15:03:52 <asiekierka> decode tap codes.
15:04:10 <asiekierka> You input the number of taps, and get the letter
15:04:11 <AnMaster> then 8*8 (64), then add 1 to it, then add 65 to the the second number you read (times 5)
15:04:15 <asiekierka> But it seems that thing is broken
15:04:20 <asiekierka> It's "true" no matter what
15:04:25 <AnMaster> then add the first number to that
15:05:49 <AnMaster> asiekierka, it checks if the final number is smaller than 5*2?
15:06:01 <asiekierka> larger
15:06:06 <asiekierka> if it is, should add one
15:06:14 <AnMaster> yeah... hm
15:06:16 <asiekierka> if it isn't, should leave it alone
15:06:30 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well the final number would be larger than 10
15:06:35 <AnMaster> as far as I can work out
15:06:38 <asiekierka> Not necessairly
15:06:43 <asiekierka> 0*0=0
15:06:49 <asiekierka> no wait
15:06:50 <asiekierka> it's
15:06:55 <asiekierka> 0*(0*5)
15:06:56 <AnMaster> 8*8 + 1 = 65
15:07:00 <asiekierka> Yes
15:07:02 <asiekierka> oh wait
15:07:04 <AnMaster> which you then *add* to maybe 0
15:07:05 <asiekierka> didn't spot that bit
15:07:23 <asiekierka> thanks for finding that bit
15:07:28 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I got no clue what it is
15:07:32 <asiekierka> It's broken
15:07:34 <AnMaster> but I can see it will always be larger yes
15:07:36 <asiekierka> a broken tap code decoder
15:07:53 <asiekierka> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_Code
15:07:55 <asiekierka> it decodes that
15:08:26 <tusho> hey AnMaster
15:08:29 <tusho> you're swedish
15:08:35 <tusho> what registrar would you use to register an .se domain
15:08:41 <asiekierka> Okay
15:08:42 <asiekierka> v              >1+>88*1++,@
15:08:43 <asiekierka> >&5%&5%5*+:52*`|
15:08:43 <asiekierka>                >  ^
15:08:44 <asiekierka> this should work
15:09:07 <asiekierka> also
15:09:21 <asiekierka> can i do like
15:09:32 <asiekierka> not >  ^, but >xx^ or something, to indicate code flow?
15:09:49 <AnMaster> eh
15:09:53 <tusho> yes but why
15:09:59 <AnMaster> asiekierka, not in funge 93
15:10:04 <asiekierka> Oh
15:10:11 <AnMaster> in 98 there are such chars you could use
15:10:24 <asiekierka> Well, i'm going to use funge-93 because tusho said i should use it since 98 is harder
15:10:25 <tusho> AnMaster: ?
15:10:25 <AnMaster> tusho, I never looked for registrar
15:10:28 <tusho> AnMaster: ok
15:10:30 <AnMaster> tusho, I use *.org mostly
15:10:35 <tusho> AnMaster: still ... all of them seem to suck
15:10:40 <tusho> AnMaster: can't change nameserver
15:10:43 <tusho> or hideously expensive
15:10:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 98 is harder to *implement*
15:10:48 <asiekierka> Oh.
15:10:51 <tusho> i didn't say that asiekierka
15:10:53 <tusho> i said it's simple
15:10:54 <tusho> r
15:10:59 <asiekierka> <asiekierka> uh, should i stay at befunge-93 or migrate to befunge-98?>
15:11:00 <asiekierka> <tusho> stay with -93 for now
15:11:00 <asiekierka> <tusho> it's a _lot_ simpler
15:11:00 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and it is the opposite of a tarpit if you see what I mean
15:11:07 <AnMaster> 98 is positively bloated :P
15:11:23 <asiekierka> Also
15:11:24 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 93 is easier to learn too, less commands
15:11:28 <asiekierka> Yeah
15:11:29 <asiekierka> but
15:11:40 <asiekierka> does Befunge-93 have commands 98 doesn't?
15:11:41 <AnMaster> asiekierka, in funge98 every printable char have some meaning
15:11:47 <AnMaster> and 98 is a superset of 93
15:11:55 <asiekierka> oh
15:12:03 <asiekierka> So i should first master funge93
15:12:14 <asiekierka> Then get around to 98
15:12:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well, there are some semantic differences with spaces in strings between 93 and 98
15:12:43 <AnMaster> ie, 98 does it like html, multiple spaces are ignored
15:12:54 <AnMaster> but apart from that it is a true superset
15:13:05 <asiekierka> well, i replaced 88*1+ with "A" for a little space optimization
15:13:08 <AnMaster> eh
15:13:09 <AnMaster> a
15:13:10 <AnMaster> not A
15:13:15 <AnMaster> A is different from a in 98
15:13:19 <asiekierka> oh
15:13:21 <asiekierka> but im using -93
15:13:23 <asiekierka> as i told
15:13:24 <AnMaster> a = 10
15:13:32 <AnMaster> oh you mean as a string
15:13:34 <AnMaster> right
15:13:34 <asiekierka> yes
15:13:35 <AnMaster> sure
15:13:38 <asiekierka> also, i use -93 anyway
15:13:46 <AnMaster> k
15:21:30 <asiekierka> Any ideas on what program to do?
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15:24:30 <asiekierka> Oh, i see.
15:24:39 <asiekierka> Befunge also has every program possible made, right
15:24:41 <asiekierka> RIGHT
15:24:52 <tusho> no
15:24:53 <tusho> :P
15:25:02 <tusho> asiekierka: we're not like ... program idea generations
15:25:11 <tusho> generators
15:25:20 <asiekierka> Oh
15:25:27 <asiekierka> But, anything you want to do but are too lazy maybe
15:26:29 <tusho> asiekierka: how about a web server
15:26:34 <tusho> you'll need -98 to do that
15:26:42 <tusho> for the networking & filesystem fingerprints(modules)
15:28:25 <asiekierka> How about i'll do an interpreter for something in -93
15:28:27 <asiekierka> For practice
15:28:31 <tusho> sure
15:28:32 <asiekierka> THEN i'll get around to -9
15:28:34 <tusho> probably a good idea
15:28:34 <asiekierka> -98
15:28:40 <tusho> asiekierka: what about an underload interp
15:28:42 <tusho> that's quite complicated
15:28:44 <asiekierka> Since an interpreter is the hardest thing in an esolang 50% of the time
15:28:45 <tusho> but still interesting
15:28:49 <asiekierka> Nothing much complicated
15:28:56 <asiekierka> I'd like to do a Piet interpreter xD
15:28:57 <tusho> it's not too complicated
15:28:59 <tusho> a little tricky, though
15:29:12 <asiekierka> with a builtin module to read BMP data
15:29:16 <asiekierka> But 80x25 is a problem
15:29:23 <asiekierka> I'd so like Befunge-93 without the limit
15:29:40 <asiekierka> in moments like that
15:29:42 <tusho> asiekierka: yes, -98 has no limit
15:29:44 <tusho> however
15:29:49 <tusho> 80x25 is an advantage in some ways
15:29:54 <tusho> it forces you to think about using the most of the space
15:29:57 <asiekierka> Yeah, it motivates you to optimize
15:33:31 <asiekierka> Anything for my first time making an esolang interpreter in an esolang?
15:33:32 <asiekierka> something easyt
15:33:34 <asiekierka> easy*
15:33:38 <asiekierka> but for the love of God NOT BF
15:33:55 <tusho> asiekierka: well, I guess underload would be a bit too hard
15:33:56 <tusho> BCT?
15:34:00 <tusho> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BCT
15:34:03 <tusho> very very simple
15:34:05 <tusho> and TC
15:34:19 <tusho> (though your impl won't be TC - befunge-93 isn't TC)
15:34:25 <tusho> (close enough for a lot of things though)
15:35:33 <asiekierka> 0 is removing the bit that's the farthest one left?
15:35:40 <asiekierka> as in, the first on the "stack"
15:36:09 <tusho> yes asiekierka
15:36:31 <tusho> and 11 = if leftmost data is 1: append 1 to end of data
15:36:35 <tusho> and 10 = if leftmost data is 1: append 0 to end of data
15:36:40 <asiekierka> 1 if the leftmost data-bit is 0, skips the next command?
15:36:43 <tusho> but
15:36:45 <tusho> note that
15:36:46 <tusho> 110
15:36:47 <tusho> executes as
15:36:53 <tusho> 11, 10, 0
15:37:01 <tusho> asiekierka: no
15:37:06 <tusho> the next command is never skipped
15:37:07 <asiekierka> oh
15:37:16 <asiekierka> so 1 if the leftmost bit is 0 just nops?
15:37:23 <tusho> yes
15:37:27 <tusho> asiekierka: but note the bit below it
15:37:31 <tusho> you don't just execute it and finish
15:37:33 <tusho> you have to "cycle" it
15:37:44 <tusho> but that's it
15:37:46 <tusho> it's pretty trivial
15:37:51 <asiekierka> cycle?
15:37:51 <asiekierka>      0 <-- 10
15:37:51 <asiekierka>      1 <-- 11
15:37:51 <asiekierka>      ; <-- 0
15:37:53 <asiekierka> you mean that
15:38:03 <asiekierka> oh wait
15:38:03 <asiekierka> no
15:38:05 <asiekierka> it's not that
15:38:16 <tusho> yeah read the paragraph below :P
15:38:50 <asiekierka> I wonder what's "cycling"
15:38:52 <AnMaster> tusho, I wonder, irc bot in erlang, I assume it has already been done though
15:39:04 <AnMaster> anyway not today I think, I think I got a cold
15:39:05 <tusho> AnMaster: obviously :P
15:39:09 <tusho> asiekierka: it describes it on the page
15:39:12 <tusho> read the BCT page all the way through
15:39:12 <tusho> :P
15:39:16 * AnMaster will probably go to bed soon due to this cold
15:39:17 <tusho> it's short
15:39:20 <tusho> AnMaster: aw
15:40:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:41:57 <tusho> by the way
15:42:11 <tusho> AnMaster: what do you think about ESO using befunge.org for its fingerprint-URI-service?
15:42:41 <AnMaster> tusho, sure, ok for me
15:42:43 <tusho> http://befunge.org/fp/tusho/tardis
15:42:47 <tusho> or whatever :P
15:43:06 <AnMaster> you know I hate time travel :P
15:43:08 <tusho> :D
15:43:10 <tusho> AnMaster: hmm
15:43:18 <tusho> AnMaster: for legacy ones
15:43:29 <tusho> http://befunge.org/fp/-legacy/TRDS
15:43:30 <tusho> or something
15:43:30 <tusho> ?
15:43:35 <tusho> then it's still a valid URI
15:43:36 <AnMaster> well legacy ones can still be loaded with the old names in funge-108
15:43:42 <tusho> as opposed to funge-fingerprint-legacy://
15:43:45 <tusho> AnMaster: why?
15:43:56 <AnMaster> it should be possible to run most existing programs under funge-108 without modifications
15:43:58 <asiekierka> Still don't quite get it. I think it's just that 10/11 are paired.
15:44:01 <AnMaster> some small needed for k and such
15:44:16 <asiekierka> 10 appends 0 to the end if the leftmost bit is 1
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15:44:18 <tusho> AnMaster: i don't think you should bother with backwards-compatibility for funge-108 really
15:44:19 <tusho> :P
15:44:25 <AnMaster> tusho, well hm....
15:44:34 <tusho> AnMaster: just have a --98 switch or whatever
15:44:46 <tusho> probably, make --98 the default
15:44:46 <AnMaster> tusho, sure cfunge will have that. but still...
15:44:53 <tusho> and have --108 for the 3 108 programs :P
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15:45:05 <tusho> AnMaster: it'd remove a lot of clutter from the spec
15:45:06 <AnMaster> cfunge already got a -s {93,98,108}
15:45:13 <asiekierka> I think i'll just check an interpreter source code
15:45:17 <asiekierka> C source code
15:45:19 <tusho> and as you said it doesn't have full compatibility atm
15:45:21 <tusho> due to 'k' etc
15:45:28 <AnMaster> tusho, k etc?
15:45:38 <tusho> [15:44:03] <AnMaster> some small needed for k and such
15:45:45 <tusho> you're already backwards-incompatible, might as well take the oppertunity
15:45:51 <AnMaster> hm
15:46:07 <AnMaster> tusho, think of the existing codebase ;P
15:46:25 <tusho> AnMaster: gasp, you might have to put a few if (FungeVersion == 98)s in! :P
15:46:29 <AnMaster> hehehe
15:46:33 <AnMaster> tusho, I already got that ;P
15:46:37 <AnMaster> for 93
15:47:04 <AnMaster> where currently I only handle spaces differently, because the space in string is the only thing I seen causing issues
15:47:11 <AnMaster> so not a full 93 mode
15:47:23 <AnMaster> but rather a semi-compatibility mode
15:47:30 <asiekierka> I think i'll implement Cyclic Tag instead
15:47:30 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire...").
15:47:40 <tusho> asiekierka: bitwise is simpler than cyclic tag
15:47:43 <tusho> since it's, uh, only bits
15:47:44 <tusho> :P
15:47:54 <asiekierka> in befunge it's not a difference
15:47:58 <AnMaster> tusho, depend on what language you implement it in
15:48:06 <AnMaster> bitwise operations in befunge wouldn't be fun
15:48:16 <asiekierka> i wouldn't use bitwise
15:48:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, if you want to compare some number you want 98 btw
15:48:20 <tusho> yeah okay
15:48:22 <asiekierka> I would use 0 and 1 in digits anyway
15:48:23 <AnMaster> much easier
15:48:23 <AnMaster> w
15:48:32 <AnMaster> say:
15:48:46 <Deewiant> I actually prefer -#v_ sometimes
15:48:50 <tusho> you know
15:48:51 <Deewiant> since you only need two lines
15:48:55 <asiekierka> How to store the datastring in Befunge-93
15:48:56 <asiekierka> i wonder
15:48:58 <tusho> funge.org would be more fun than befunge.org
15:48:59 <tusho> c.funge.org
15:49:03 <tusho> rc.funge.org
15:49:27 <asiekierka> since g/p operations take away space
15:49:29 <asiekierka> and the stack
15:49:50 <tusho> asiekierka: the stack is probably the best idea
15:49:54 <asiekierka> Yeah, i'd need to put a value at the very bottom
15:49:56 <asiekierka> How!?
15:50:04 <tusho> but if you hyper-optimized your code you could leave the rest of the fungespace for the code/datastring
15:50:15 <asiekierka> as the leftmost will be the top (okay) and rightmost will be the bottom
15:50:19 <asiekierka> Now how to add numbers to the bottom
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15:50:43 <Deewiant> asiekierka: to the bottom of the stack?
15:50:46 <asiekierka> Yes
15:50:54 <Deewiant> you'll need a fingerprint for that
15:50:58 <Deewiant> MODE or FRTH
15:51:00 <asiekierka> in befunge-93
15:51:04 <Deewiant> impossible
15:51:19 <AnMaster> v      > "2 is greater than 1">:#,_@
15:51:20 <AnMaster> >  1 2 w "2 and 1 are equal Equal">:#,_@
15:51:20 <AnMaster>        > "2 is less than 1">:#,_@
15:51:22 <Deewiant> well, of course you can store the stack in funge-space
15:51:25 <AnMaster> of course that won't print it correctly
15:51:28 <AnMaster> asiekierka, ^
15:51:32 <AnMaster> but very useful w.
15:51:48 <Deewiant> asiekierka: i.e. 'p' all values on the stack now somewhere, then push your new value, then 'g' them back
15:51:55 <asiekierka> I wanted to do it
15:52:02 <Deewiant> you might have to keep track of the stack size though
15:52:10 <asiekierka> right
15:52:31 <asiekierka> if it'll exceed 80 bytes, i'm going to remove the rightmost databit
15:52:35 <asiekierka> or
15:52:36 <asiekierka> not put it
15:52:37 <AnMaster> i<tusho> funge.org would be more fun than befunge.org
15:52:39 <AnMaster> aye
15:52:43 <AnMaster> trefunge
15:52:44 <AnMaster> unefunge
15:52:45 <AnMaster> too
15:52:49 <tusho> be.funge.org :P
15:52:54 <asiekierka> I could keep track by g/p
15:52:55 <tusho> and the interpreter name puns
15:53:09 <AnMaster> tusho, then what about CC.funge.org.I? ;P
15:53:14 <AnMaster> err
15:53:17 <AnMaster> tusho, then what about CC.be.funge.org.I? ;P
15:53:18 <AnMaster> even
15:53:38 <AnMaster> or FBBI
15:53:39 <tusho> AnMaster: ccbe.funge.org/i
15:53:46 <tusho> fbbe.funge.org/i
15:54:00 <Deewiant> why .org
15:54:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well his domain name...
15:54:11 <tusho> Deewiant: what would you suggest?
15:54:17 <tusho> .com? it's not commercial
15:54:20 <AnMaster> tusho, buy a tld from ICANN?
15:54:23 <AnMaster> .funge
15:54:24 <AnMaster> XD
15:54:26 <tusho> AnMaster: heh
15:54:28 <Deewiant> exactly :-)
15:54:35 <AnMaster> how much would that cost?
15:54:39 <tusho> AnMaster: $500K
15:54:41 <tusho> I believe
15:54:42 <AnMaster> ouch
15:54:45 <AnMaster> not an option then
15:54:48 <tusho> o rly
15:54:49 <tusho> :p
15:54:54 <AnMaster> well not for me
15:55:08 <tusho> i am actually a billionare
15:55:14 <tusho> that 12 year old thing was just a disguise
15:55:17 <tusho> you guys want .funge?
15:55:17 <Deewiant> but of course we don't need to use http and hence can drop the .org altogether
15:55:20 <Deewiant> unless we want to
15:55:26 <tusho> Deewiant: gopher!
15:55:29 <tusho> no wait
15:55:33 <tusho> hmm
15:55:41 <tusho> Deewiant: mailto
15:55:46 <tusho> mailto:c@funge.org
15:55:51 <AnMaster> eww
15:55:56 <tusho> mailing to it will be replied to with information about cfunge
15:55:57 <tusho> :-P
15:56:00 <Deewiant> do we have to use a standardized one?
15:56:06 <asiekierka>  Ok, i have processing lines ready for ;, 1 and 0
15:56:10 <tusho> Deewiant: yes
15:56:10 <Deewiant> if so, just urn:
15:56:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, of course, we need URIs
15:56:12 <tusho> otherwise it's not a valid uri
15:56:19 <tusho> asiekierka: uh
15:56:21 <tusho> ; isn't in bct
15:56:28 <asiekierka> but i'm writing a CT interpreter
15:56:31 <tusho> oh
15:56:31 <tusho> ok
15:56:37 <asiekierka> Also
15:57:02 <asiekierka> is g/p's x and y positions calculated from 0-79/0-24 or 1-80/1-25
15:57:02 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you need funge-98 then
15:57:09 <asiekierka> Why
15:57:11 <AnMaster> because funge-93 is not turing complete
15:57:21 <AnMaster> it is restricted to 25x80
15:57:24 <Deewiant> tusho, AnMaster: where in the RFC does it say that they need to be officially registered
15:57:26 <tusho> he doesn't need tc AnMaster
15:57:31 <Deewiant> I can't find it in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
15:57:35 <AnMaster> tusho, well CT would need it right?
15:57:36 <tusho> Deewiant: shrug - I know it's true though
15:57:36 <asiekierka> No language ever on the universe is TC
15:57:40 <asiekierka> we don't have unbounded storage
15:57:48 <tusho> asiekierka: langs are tc
15:57:49 <tusho> impls are not
15:57:50 <Deewiant> tusho: wikipedia says only "should"
15:57:55 <tusho> AnMaster: he can implement CT without infinite memory
15:57:59 <tusho> Deewiant: it's somewhere in there
15:58:06 <AnMaster>    Individual schemes are not specified by this document.  The process
15:58:07 <AnMaster>    for registration of new URI schemes is defined separately by [BCP35].
15:58:07 <AnMaster>    The scheme registry maintains the mapping between scheme names and
15:58:07 <AnMaster>    their specifications.
15:58:11 <AnMaster> there are lots of stuff like it
15:58:43 <Deewiant> tusho: but anyway, urn: works
15:58:55 <tusho> Deewiant: yes but ESO are going to give away http uris
15:58:59 <tusho> because it's nicer to be able to just load it and get info
15:59:03 <tusho> instead of googling it or whatever
15:59:25 <AnMaster> tusho, you could document other ones not hosted by you in some standard format as well
15:59:37 <tusho> AnMaster: possibly
15:59:45 <asiekierka> Also, with g/p, do you put x, then y, or the other way around?
15:59:45 <tusho> i'd prefer to keep it away from centralizationt hough
15:59:47 <tusho> *though
15:59:51 <AnMaster> at least for the *old* established ones
16:00:01 <AnMaster> tusho, I mean the already existing common ones,
16:00:02 <tusho> AnMaster: that'll be under -legacy
16:00:07 <AnMaster> or at least provide info where to find themn
16:00:09 <AnMaster> them*
16:00:09 <tusho> http://befunge.org/fp/-legacy/TRDS
16:00:21 <AnMaster> tusho, and I will still allow loading programs with old style name
16:00:32 <tusho> AnMaster: i've argued for why you shouldn't
16:00:33 <tusho> shrug
16:00:52 <AnMaster>    URI scheme names, as defined by <scheme> in Section 3.1, form a
16:00:53 <AnMaster>    registered namespace that is managed by IANA according to the
16:00:53 <AnMaster>    procedures defined in [BCP35].  No IANA actions are required by this
16:00:53 <AnMaster>    document.
16:01:20 <AnMaster> tusho, changing existing applications to new scheme may be hard
16:01:29 <tusho> AnMaster: err no
16:01:35 <tusho> put http://befunge.org/fp/-legacy/ in front of it
16:01:36 <tusho> or whatever
16:01:46 <AnMaster> tusho, there may be lack of space in funge programs
16:01:48 <tusho> or an appropriate urn:, if that's the legacy route taken
16:01:49 <AnMaster> just look at mycology
16:01:55 <tusho> AnMaster: um, fungespace is infinite
16:02:03 <tusho> anyway
16:02:07 <AnMaster> tusho, but you need to readjust a lot of existing code sometimes
16:02:18 <tusho> AnMaster: what conceivable new features in funge-108 would justify porting a program over?
16:02:20 <tusho> it's just a clarification
16:02:21 <tusho> for new programs
16:02:25 <tusho> not anything worth upgrading to
16:02:26 <AnMaster> at least if you wrote the original program idiomatically
16:02:27 <AnMaster> :P
16:02:35 <tusho> therefore, backwards-compatibility is a non-issue
16:02:57 <AnMaster> tusho, what if you want to extend it to use some new fingerprint, I mean in another module of the program ;P
16:03:12 <tusho> AnMaster: yeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssss....
16:03:21 <tusho> the problem is you use your jokes to actually justify changing the standard
16:03:23 <tusho> :|
16:03:26 <AnMaster> tusho, of course this is not very probable :P
16:03:30 <tusho> exactly
16:03:55 <AnMaster> tusho, but we need to maintain compatibility with existing enterprise level applications!
16:03:59 <AnMaster> ;P
16:04:20 <tusho> AnMaster: give me a non-joking justification
16:04:27 <asiekierka> CTiBE is a hard job
16:04:33 <tusho> if you can't, then surely you must face what I said and remove it
16:04:42 <AnMaster> tusho, making it possible to run existing code
16:04:51 <AnMaster> also
16:04:56 <tusho> AnMaster: just run it as --98
16:05:09 <tusho> if you think there are going to be any funge-108 interps you are pretty deluded
16:05:11 <AnMaster> the issue of selecting URIs for existing ones
16:05:14 <tusho> funge-108 only that is
16:05:14 <AnMaster> or new 98 ones
16:05:22 <tusho> AnMaster: use an urn
16:05:28 <tusho> urn:
16:05:34 <AnMaster> um yes, they are also a specific name space
16:06:23 <AnMaster> http://www.iana.org/assignments/urn-namespaces/
16:06:26 <AnMaster> are the valid URN ones
16:06:44 <tusho> there is a generic one though
16:06:48 <tusho> that you can arbitarily use
16:06:51 <tusho> forgot which
16:08:06 <AnMaster> bbiab
16:08:58 <asiekierka>                     >v
16:08:59 <asiekierka>       >62*54*3+g:"O"|>55*pv>program continues here
16:08:59 <asiekierka>       ^ < < < < < < < < < <
16:08:59 <asiekierka>                    > > > > ^
16:09:06 <asiekierka> my stack copy thing
16:09:20 <asiekierka> wait
16:09:21 <asiekierka> it's broken
16:09:49 -!- Slereah has joined.
16:09:50 <asiekierka>               >v
16:09:51 <asiekierka> >62*54*3+g:"O"|>55*pv>code here
16:09:51 <asiekierka> ^< < < < < < < < < <<
16:09:51 <asiekierka>               > > > >^
16:09:52 <asiekierka> here we go
16:09:54 <tusho> hi Slereah_
16:10:02 <asiekierka> How's that
16:10:09 <asiekierka> my stack copying code
16:10:35 <asiekierka> O is char 79
16:10:43 <asiekierka> and it gives me some optimization in this thing
16:10:46 <tusho> asiekierka: crazy but cool :D
16:10:54 <asiekierka> xD
16:10:59 <asiekierka> also, optimized i think
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16:12:29 <AnMaster> asiekierka, where is entry point in that code
16:12:37 <asiekierka> it's just a part of my code
16:12:43 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> ^< < < < < < < < < <<
16:12:43 <AnMaster> <asiekierka>               > > > >^
16:12:47 <AnMaster> that looks unbalanced
16:12:57 <asiekierka> It's meant to look like it
16:13:01 <AnMaster> ah ok
16:13:09 <asiekierka> I wonder if i didn't swap something up
16:13:19 <asiekierka> yes i did
16:13:21 <asiekierka> up with down
16:13:47 <AnMaster> asiekierka, all the un-needed arrows are confusing
16:13:55 <asiekierka> They help me see what is where
16:13:57 <asiekierka> a bit
16:13:59 <asiekierka> but oh well
16:14:10 <AnMaster> well for me they signal "something will need to turn here"
16:14:19 <AnMaster> so I look for stuff entering from other directions
16:14:20 <asiekierka>               >      v
16:14:20 <asiekierka> >62*54*3+g:"O"|>55*pv>code here
16:14:20 <asiekierka> ^                   <
16:14:20 <asiekierka>               >^
16:14:21 <asiekierka> what about THIS
16:14:25 <AnMaster> ah yes :)
16:14:37 <asiekierka> But the code for stack cleaning looks so obfuscated
16:14:41 <asiekierka> I hardly understand it
16:14:51 <AnMaster> you could make it more compact I think
16:14:56 <asiekierka> it generates the value 12 (X), 20+3=23 (Y)
16:15:06 <asiekierka> Then it takes the value from it (loopty loop position
16:15:08 <asiekierka> )
16:15:16 <asiekierka> duplicates it for IF purposes
16:15:22 <asiekierka> Compares it with "O" (79)
16:15:34 <asiekierka> If it's 79 already, it's over!
16:15:35 <AnMaster> " :rebmun a retnE" >:#,_v
16:15:35 <AnMaster>   v_v#!`g00:+1<np00&    <
16:15:35 <AnMaster> .:< >a,@      ^
16:15:37 <AnMaster> :)
16:15:39 <AnMaster> one of mine
16:15:49 <AnMaster> the :) was a smiley, not funge code btw
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16:16:00 <asiekierka> If it's not, it goes to enter another number, and repeats the code
16:16:02 <AnMaster> I think it may be funge-98 only
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16:16:08 <asiekierka> It's all of my code.
16:16:10 <AnMaster> actually, not sure
16:16:12 <asiekierka> That's what it does
16:16:17 <AnMaster> brb
16:16:17 <asiekierka> Not quite a lot, right?
16:16:27 <tusho> AnMaster: can you believe asiekierka only decided to learn befunge two hours ago?
16:17:39 <asiekierka> I think i know how to cut it to 3 lines
16:17:58 <asiekierka> no wait
16:18:00 <asiekierka> not that easy
16:18:02 <asiekierka> after all
16:18:18 <asiekierka> oh well
16:18:37 <tusho> asiekierka: how much of the full interp have you written?
16:18:43 <tusho> wait
16:18:44 <tusho> all of it?!
16:18:47 <asiekierka> The stack copying code is 10-20%
16:18:49 <asiekierka> nope
16:18:51 <tusho> ah
16:18:53 <asiekierka> Only the stack copying code
16:18:57 <asiekierka> It's the most important part
16:19:02 <asiekierka> Then goes a stack re-copying part
16:19:07 <asiekierka> Then the actual function implementation
16:19:09 <asiekierka> And done. :)
16:19:30 <asiekierka> I wasted 12/22 lines so far
16:19:35 <asiekierka> as 3 are reserved for stack/etc data
16:19:40 <asiekierka> I could minimize it to 2
16:19:54 <asiekierka> Also
16:19:54 <tusho> asiekierka: remember, you can fit code in vertically
16:19:58 <asiekierka> yeah
16:19:59 <asiekierka> i know
16:20:00 <tusho> and then use horizontal if
16:20:05 <asiekierka> is there a way to check whether the stack is empty?
16:20:08 <tusho> asiekierka: you can even make code execute in different directions
16:20:12 <tusho> same code
16:20:17 <asiekierka> or cross instructions together
16:20:18 <asiekierka> as in
16:20:18 <tusho> so that it goes a different way depending on which way it hits
16:20:19 <tusho> etc
16:20:24 <asiekierka> > g >
16:20:26 <tusho> asiekierka: no way to check for an empty stack
16:20:26 <asiekierka> and
16:20:27 <tusho> but yes
16:20:28 <asiekierka> v
16:20:29 <asiekierka> g
16:20:29 <asiekierka> v
16:20:34 <asiekierka> g is in the same spot
16:20:46 <asiekierka> So, if i output from the stack when it's empty
16:20:48 <asiekierka> i get a null value?
16:21:02 <tusho> asiekierka: undefined, I guess
16:21:04 <tusho> maybe an error
16:21:15 <asiekierka> So my cyclic tag interpreter may crash
16:21:25 <tusho> perhaps
16:21:41 <asiekierka> i may make an interp for a different lang maybe
16:21:49 <tusho> asiekierka: nah
16:21:53 <tusho> just find a way around your problem
16:21:53 * asiekierka is all deadfish
16:21:53 <tusho> :P
16:21:59 <asiekierka> Tusho: but there's none!
16:22:11 <tusho> asiekierka: o rly?
16:22:15 <tusho> put false on the bottom of the stack
16:22:16 <asiekierka> ya rly
16:22:20 <asiekierka> oh
16:22:21 <tusho> increase each other element on the stack by 1
16:22:23 <tusho> then, stack empty = if
16:22:34 <asiekierka> i could put a "EOS sign" at the bottom of the stack
16:22:37 <tusho> (This means that the maximum integer that you can put on the stack is 1 less, but who cares)
16:22:40 <tusho> asiekierka: yes, and that's the best way to do it
16:22:41 <asiekierka> EOS - End Of Stack (xD)
16:23:16 <Deewiant> asiekierka: empty stack is defined to pop 0
16:23:28 <tusho> ah, there we go then
16:23:31 <asiekierka> in funge-93?
16:23:40 <Deewiant> yes, there as well
16:23:47 <asiekierka> but i'll use an E
16:23:49 <asiekierka> safety is important
16:23:50 <asiekierka> :)
16:23:53 <tusho> asiekierka: errr
16:23:56 <tusho> but E could appear on the stack
16:23:59 <tusho> couldn't it?
16:24:07 <asiekierka> nope
16:24:08 <tusho> asiekierka: best way: use a 0, then increase every other one by one
16:24:09 <tusho> oh
16:24:10 <tusho> okay then
16:24:12 <asiekierka> only 0 and 1 can
16:24:15 <tusho> ah ok
16:24:16 <asiekierka> in CT, right
16:24:17 <tusho> then just use an E
16:24:18 <tusho> or whatever
16:26:10 <asiekierka> v
16:26:12 <asiekierka> "                    >v    >$     v
16:26:12 <asiekierka> E      >62*54*3+g:"O"|>:"E"|>55*pv>
16:26:12 <asiekierka> "      ^             >            ^
16:26:12 <asiekierka> >~:"0" |                   >^
16:26:12 <asiekierka>        v
16:26:15 <asiekierka> a full excerpt from my code
16:26:20 <asiekierka> this is the "0" current implementation
16:26:26 <asiekierka> I.E. stack cleaning and initalization
16:26:32 <asiekierka> without the real "0" interpretation
16:26:32 <tusho> asiekierka: really cool
16:26:38 <tusho> how do you pick up languages so fast?
16:26:42 <asiekierka> I'm a kid.
16:26:45 <asiekierka> Kids learn quickly.
16:26:47 <asiekierka> :P
16:26:48 <tusho> so am i, i'm 12 :p
16:26:51 <tusho> but i could not write that with only 2 hours of befunge knowledge
16:27:01 <asiekierka> 3 hours.
16:27:04 <asiekierka> i think 3.
16:27:07 <tusho> nor 3 hours :P
16:27:10 <asiekierka> Also, i can write quickly
16:27:20 <tusho> i can type pretty darn quickly too
16:27:24 <asiekierka> And i just look at the docs frequently
16:27:25 <tusho> dunno how that ties in with learning befunge though
16:27:26 <tusho> :P
16:27:31 <asiekierka> when i dont know what to do
16:27:34 <asiekierka> i look at the docs
16:27:35 <asiekierka> if still no idea
16:27:37 <tusho> true
16:27:37 <Deewiant> I think befunge is really simple...
16:27:38 <asiekierka> i ask here :D
16:27:45 <asiekierka> EAP
16:27:47 <tusho> Deewiant: well, i couldn't write that :p
16:27:47 <asiekierka> (Easy As Pie)
16:28:11 <asiekierka> So, as you see, the stack clean&copy code is done.
16:28:15 <Deewiant> tusho: well why not, what's so complicated about it :-P
16:28:17 <asiekierka> Now i must copy it to all 3 functions
16:28:27 <tusho> Deewiant: just the organization i guess
16:28:30 <tusho> i would continually have to shift it about
16:28:32 <tusho> and probably give up
16:28:56 <Deewiant> so the problem isn't befunge knowledge, it's that you're an untidy person with little patience ;-)
16:29:25 <tusho> Deewiant: :p
16:29:36 <tusho> got me down to a T there
16:29:42 <asiekierka> I have a little too much patience
16:29:43 <asiekierka> ya know? :D
16:29:58 <tusho> asiekierka: i find it hard to believe -that- :P
16:30:15 <asiekierka> how else could i write that piece of code
16:30:20 <asiekierka> so fastly
16:30:20 <asiekierka> w/o a break
16:30:41 <asiekierka> Ok
16:30:45 <tusho> asiekierka: you're hyperactive
16:30:45 <asiekierka> so stack cleaning is done
16:30:45 <tusho> :P
16:30:51 <asiekierka> Maybe
16:30:53 <tusho> that's how :D
16:31:02 <asiekierka> I just like doing stuff
16:32:18 <fizzie> Wahh, every time people speak about Befunge, it reminds me of the Befunge turing machine interpreter thing I wrote, syntax-highlighted with horrible HTML/CSS, and then subsequently lost.
16:32:18 <asiekierka> Done the function for ";"
16:32:29 <asiekierka> now 0, 1 and the stack readding code
16:32:32 <tusho> fizzie: Aww.
16:32:44 <tusho> fizzie: It can't have been TC though unless it was -98
16:32:45 <Deewiant> fizzie: rewrite it from memory
16:32:57 <asiekierka> I forgot about something
16:32:59 <asiekierka> checking conditions
16:33:17 <fizzie> tusho; The tape length was limited to the width of the funge-space, yes.
16:33:18 <Deewiant> tusho: what if it uses , and & to store/retrieve from the user's mind
16:33:25 <asiekierka> Hopefully i don't use any ascii char after "N"
16:33:53 <asiekierka> Ok, fixed
16:34:38 <asiekierka> So now goes implementing 0, 1 and the stack removal stuff. Oh man, how i want to take a break from this
16:34:43 <asiekierka> but can't really, it's so awesome
16:35:02 <tusho> heh
16:35:11 <tusho> asiekierka: but ... befunge has too many commands!
16:35:13 <Deewiant> befunge is like that, you can't stop
16:35:14 <tusho> :P
16:35:27 <asiekierka> tusho: but... befunge's commands are just good enough
16:35:37 <tusho> i was just copying what you said earlier asiekierka
16:35:37 <tusho> :P
16:35:51 <AnMaster> <tusho> AnMaster: can you believe asiekierka only decided to learn befunge two hours ago?
16:35:52 <AnMaster> nop
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16:37:23 <AnMaster> <tusho> asiekierka: no way to check for an empty stack <-- in funge-98 you could use y
16:37:43 <asiekierka> FUNGE-98 DAMMIT
16:37:43 <AnMaster> as for empty funge stack you always get 0
16:37:44 <tusho> he is using -93
16:37:46 <asiekierka> I USE FUNGE-93
16:37:54 <asiekierka> Please remember that.
16:37:55 <AnMaster> in 93 too
16:37:55 <asiekierka> OH PLEASE
16:38:01 <tusho> asiekierka: chill
16:38:03 <asiekierka> i'm using an "E" already
16:38:08 <asiekierka> to check for "EOS"
16:38:14 <asiekierka> oh wait
16:38:19 <asiekierka> forgot conditions on the "E" too :(
16:38:35 <asiekierka> That'll require so much remapping
16:38:40 <asiekierka> now, as i completed 50% of "1"
16:39:08 <AnMaster> asiekierka, this would probably be easier in Funge-98
16:39:24 <asiekierka> but i'm making it in funge-93 to practice it
16:39:27 <asiekierka> before migrating to funge-98
16:39:30 <AnMaster> anyway using y is not trivial ;P
16:39:39 <AnMaster> y is "system information"
16:39:47 <AnMaster> problem is, getting the right info out of it
16:40:18 <asiekierka> Hopefully, just fixed every order stuff
16:40:21 <asiekierka> Now to implement
16:41:03 <AnMaster> asiekierka, there is a lisp->befunge-98 compiler
16:41:09 <AnMaster> not very good an the code is slow
16:41:28 <AnMaster> or was it scheme->befunge-98?
16:41:30 <AnMaster> one of those
16:41:35 <AnMaster> and only handled a subset
16:41:49 <Deewiant> http://cubonegro.orgfree.com/sponge/sponge.html
16:42:00 <AnMaster> ah yes
16:42:03 <asiekierka> Ok, implemented 1
16:42:09 -!- tusho has quit.
16:42:12 * sebbu a un hérisson dans son jardin | have a hedgedog in the garden
16:42:23 -!- tusho has joined.
16:43:17 <asiekierka> Woo
16:43:20 <asiekierka> 0 is implemented too!
16:43:34 <asiekierka> But how tired i am... I must take a break. For 17 minutes.
16:43:40 <asiekierka> Then i'll work on stack readding
16:43:47 <tusho> 17?
16:43:48 <tusho> pretty precise
16:43:57 <asiekierka> since it'll be 6 PM at that time here
16:44:01 <asiekierka> And finally fnish the code then.
16:44:22 <asiekierka> I.E. add stack reputting. Then just get over with it.
16:44:23 <asiekierka> oh wait
16:44:29 <asiekierka> i don't have output in my interpreter
16:44:30 <asiekierka> :((((
16:44:33 <asiekierka> Oh man.
16:44:41 <asiekierka> and i dont have a debugger
16:44:50 <asiekierka> I will get it later
16:44:52 <asiekierka> now, a break.
16:44:59 <asiekierka> 6 minutes away, then going to talk
16:45:38 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I don't think you can fit a debugger into it as well
16:45:57 <tusho> AnMaster: he wants a befunge debugger
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16:46:08 <asiekierka> since the stack has the memory
16:46:09 <LinuS> hi there
16:46:18 <asiekierka> and the code is the input
16:46:19 <asiekierka> hi
16:46:23 <Deewiant> for befunge-93, RC/Funge-98 has a debugger
16:46:37 <Deewiant> if it's befunge-98 compatible (probably is), CCBI's debugger is better ;-)
16:46:55 <AnMaster> wait
16:46:55 <LinuS> do you have any news about IRC-related eso languages a part from the one found on 99bottles of beer which seem to be called IRC?
16:46:58 <AnMaster> what?
16:47:16 <LinuS> i've done one, then i realized there might be more :(
16:47:26 <AnMaster> what about IRP?
16:48:13 <asiekierka> i think he means the esolang called "IRC"
16:48:22 <LinuS> oh i see, there is also IRP
16:48:43 <AnMaster> there is one called IRC?
16:48:59 <LinuS> yes
16:49:06 <AnMaster> LinuS, IRP can be *done* over IRC (as in IRC chat)
16:49:12 <LinuS> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/IRC
16:49:17 <LinuS> AnMaster: i see
16:49:20 <LinuS> well mine is kind of different
16:49:34 <LinuS> it is a turing complete one that sends commands to an irc server aswell
16:49:49 <LinuS> it uses channels as functions and +b as variables
16:49:54 <AnMaster> haha
16:49:56 <LinuS> and everything is sent to the server
16:49:59 * AnMaster reads up on it
16:50:14 <LinuS> i've got an example but it is in italian, you should still understands commands anyway, wait a moment
16:50:41 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/Hcfjqb90.html
16:50:52 <tusho> LinuS: that's cool
16:51:06 <LinuS> is it? i was scared someone else already did this
16:51:36 <tusho> LinuS: it's funny, because that would be useful for both crazy ESO things and making silly little IRC bots
16:51:39 <tusho> (if you can read from the server too)
16:52:01 <LinuS> well, at the moment it just send commands
16:52:14 <LinuS> the fact is i tried to store everything on IRC
16:52:32 <LinuS> so you'd need to use +b in a channel to pass info to another process
16:52:53 <LinuS> but channels have +lk flags (used for passing parameters to functions) so that might be a problem
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16:53:15 <AnMaster> LinuS, write an interpreter for IRC maybe?
16:53:30 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:53:41 <asiekierka> ok i'm back
16:53:53 <asiekierka> 7 minutes and im back to work
16:54:07 <AnMaster> asiekierka, hm?
16:54:22 <asiekierka> working on the stack recopying module of my Cyclic Tag interpreter for Befunge
16:54:26 <AnMaster> ah yes
16:54:28 <LinuS> AnMaster: the problem is you can't see every command, i was thinking about writing an interpreter that both: executes the command (the only main thing he does is reading variables and calling functions, and the + - / * operations) and sends it to the irc server
16:55:01 <asiekierka> oh well
16:55:05 <LinuS> in the link you can see it calculating a power
16:55:06 <asiekierka> gonna start doing it slowly
16:55:08 <AnMaster> LinuS, you would to use a custom irc server to handle multiple clients, no rate limits and so on
16:55:24 <AnMaster> and to give +o to set clients
16:55:36 <LinuS> well i can just delay the messagges and change nick/channel for every new program
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16:55:44 <AnMaster> LinuS, a normal ircd limits number of client per host
16:55:45 <LinuS> so that you can run it in every irc server
16:55:50 <AnMaster> well normal ircd setup
16:55:56 <LinuS> well, why do you need more then one?
16:55:58 <AnMaster> and also rates for commands
16:56:10 <LinuS> rates for commands is solver by delaying every command
16:56:13 <AnMaster> LinuS, one for "op, input, output, voiced" and so on
16:56:27 <LinuS> i'm not using that!
16:56:34 <AnMaster> LinuS, um what?
16:56:35 <LinuS> i store variables in channel's +b
16:56:43 <LinuS> i'm not the IRC guy
16:56:45 <asiekierka> This part of code will recopy the stack from codespace to the stack, append whatever's needed, and return to the beginning
16:56:48 <AnMaster> errgh what?
16:56:48 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/Hcfjqb90.html
16:56:50 <LinuS> i've done this
16:56:51 <LinuS> lol
16:56:55 <AnMaster> LinuS, number of bans are also limited
16:56:57 <AnMaster> normally 64
16:56:58 <asiekierka> Oh wait, i didn't check for endofcode the whole time
16:57:00 <LinuS> yeah well
16:57:07 <LinuS> it is enought
16:57:11 <LinuS> enough*
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16:57:16 <AnMaster> LinuS, also I can't read that language you pasted
16:57:20 <AnMaster> hi ais523
16:57:27 <LinuS> fine, just read the examples
16:57:27 <AnMaster> LinuS, French? Spanish?
16:57:33 <LinuS> without taking care of the * comments
16:57:34 <LinuS> italian :)
16:57:42 <ais523> hi AnMaster
16:57:43 <LinuS> the second one is a power calculator
16:57:49 <LinuS> it calculates 2^4
16:58:04 <AnMaster> ais523, formed any opinion of erlang yet?
16:58:06 <LinuS> passing the parameters via the +l and +k "spaces"
16:58:19 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I've been asleep pretty much all the time I haven't been online recently
16:58:22 <AnMaster> LinuS, hm ok, well, English comments would help (or Swedish)
16:58:29 <LinuS> i'll translate it asap
16:58:30 <ais523> also I'm not connected to the Internet when I'm not on IRC, more or less
16:58:35 <ais523> unless I'm at a cybercage
16:58:39 <ais523> s/cage/cafe/
16:58:42 <ais523> although I like the typo
16:58:46 <LinuS> cybercage.. :D
16:58:47 <AnMaster> ais523, hahaha
16:58:47 <asiekierka> cybercage xD
16:58:54 <asiekierka> that's what describes what i'm doing right now
16:58:58 <LinuS> lol
16:58:58 <AnMaster> asiekierka, oh?
16:59:36 <asiekierka> making this is like sitting in a cage
16:59:45 <asiekierka> this cyclic tag interpreter
16:59:50 <asiekierka> It's not a cybercage
16:59:53 <asiekierka> It's a fungecage
16:59:54 <AnMaster> asiekierka, 98 would give more freedom, I mean allow you to use a lot more space
17:00:05 <AnMaster> and also make some stuff simpler
17:00:06 <ais523> asiekierka: writing a cyclic tag interp in Befunge-93?
17:00:12 <AnMaster> ais523, yes he is
17:00:15 <ais523> I'm not sure it's possible in general, cyclic tag's TC and Befunge-93 isn't
17:00:22 <ais523> so you're going to run out of fungespace eventually
17:00:30 <AnMaster> ais523, well no implementation is TC
17:00:38 <tusho> ais523
17:00:40 <tusho> you forgot to greet me
17:00:54 <ais523> AnMaster: I consider an implementation to be TC if the only reason it isn't TC is the standard library erroring
17:01:02 <ais523> tusho: yes, I want to move away from a greeting race
17:01:07 <ais523> besides AnMaster won this time
17:01:08 <tusho> ais523: how dare you
17:01:18 <AnMaster> ais523, I didn't race
17:01:22 <AnMaster> I just wanted to say hi
17:01:27 <ais523> AnMaster: no, that's what makes it better
17:01:37 <AnMaster> ais523, also what do you mean "standard library erroring"
17:01:38 <ais523> saying hi for the sake of saying hi is so much better than saying hi for racing
17:01:41 <ais523> AnMaster: malloc failing
17:01:46 <ais523> or similar
17:01:54 <AnMaster> the only reason no funge-98 is TC is that you run out of funge space at some point
17:01:59 <AnMaster> say 32-bit, 64-bit or whatever
17:02:04 <tusho> ais523: it's also a useful indication that #esoteric is gonna get a lot more active
17:02:06 <ais523> AnMaster: wrong, you can use the stack stack
17:02:07 <tusho> as it always does when you join
17:02:16 <AnMaster> ais523, well that will also run out
17:02:16 <ais523> to create infinite storage
17:02:19 <asiekierka> aaaahhh!
17:02:27 <asiekierka> I forgot i'm using the stack for the stack reader
17:02:34 <asiekierka> So nope, all hour of my work was wasted.
17:02:34 <AnMaster> ais523, because you need to be able to put stack size in y
17:02:46 <ais523> AnMaster: ugh, Funge-98 hits the sizeof problem
17:02:59 <AnMaster> ais523, aye, you need to be able to store the size
17:03:02 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/loi2iT93.html
17:03:03 <asiekierka> :(
17:03:05 <asiekierka> it's all broken
17:03:11 <asiekierka> :(
17:03:21 <AnMaster> asiekierka, then fix it :)
17:03:22 <asiekierka> If anyone wants to take it, feel free too
17:03:24 <asiekierka> to*
17:03:27 <tusho> asiekierka: i'm sure you can fix it
17:03:28 <asiekierka> But it'll take at least two hours
17:03:28 <tusho> don't give up
17:03:32 <ais523> C is only TC due to file I/O, the existence of sizeof prevents anything else being TC because sizeof(void*) has to be finite
17:03:52 <AnMaster> ais523, however I think cfunge will allow larger size than funge cell if it uses 32-bit cells on a 64-bit host
17:03:54 <asiekierka> no wait
17:03:56 <AnMaster> not sure what the result would be
17:03:57 <asiekierka> it IS okay, actually
17:04:02 <AnMaster> I don't have enough ram to test it
17:04:09 <asiekierka> forgot commands remove the stack values
17:04:09 <asiekierka> T_T
17:04:46 <AnMaster> ais523, hm... sizeof is useful still
17:05:08 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway you could have a bignum funge
17:05:25 <AnMaster> nothing really forbids in in 98
17:05:32 <AnMaster> well actually there is one small issue
17:05:37 <AnMaster> but that is fixed in 108
17:05:45 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's good, unfortunately sizeof has to be finite in C and you have to be able to do bitwise arithmetic so that solution doesn't work there
17:05:48 <AnMaster> (number of bytes per cell, how do you say "bignum")
17:05:56 <AnMaster> (funge-108 says you should use -1 for that)
17:06:23 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, there?
17:06:29 <asiekierka> Woo, everything was right
17:06:30 <MikeRiley> ;yes i am
17:06:35 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, how would LONG work on a Funge with BIGNUMs?
17:06:38 <asiekierka> I just got to the point i didn't understand my own code, you know?
17:06:47 <asiekierka> Who did experience it? As in, you don't understand your code
17:06:58 <MikeRiley> LONG should use double the cell size as the size to use
17:07:15 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well with BIGNUM you could fit any value into any cell
17:07:16 <asiekierka> But i forgot about something
17:07:27 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bignum
17:07:29 <asiekierka> You know, i forgot to increase the cell value
17:07:44 <MikeRiley> looking
17:07:49 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, so 1 cell will always be enough for any value
17:08:26 <MikeRiley> LONG is not the same as that...
17:08:32 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, indeed not
17:08:40 <MikeRiley> BigNum looks like arbitary length,,,have another fingerprint for that!!!
17:08:50 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, but what if the interpreter uses Bignums for it's cells
17:08:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so a LONG with a bignum would just always push 0 for the other half of the value...
17:08:55 <MikeRiley> LONG is just integers that are double the cell size...
17:08:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah good point
17:09:10 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, point is, cell size *could be bignum*
17:09:25 <MikeRiley> in which case LONG may have no application...
17:09:28 <AnMaster> indeed
17:09:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how would mycology handle a bignum Funge-98 interpreter?
17:09:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: just fine...
17:09:58 <MikeRiley> but without some way to support it,,,anybody who wrote software using LONG would not work..
17:10:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what should cell size be? ;)
17:10:08 <AnMaster> in 108 that is solved
17:10:13 <AnMaster> but what about cell size in 98
17:10:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: UNDEF
17:10:21 <MikeRiley> cell size in 98 is undefined,,,
17:10:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well what would you recommend in y
17:10:27 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I mean for y
17:10:28 <MikeRiley> the spec says any size can be used...
17:10:29 <Deewiant> -1 seems good to me
17:10:35 <AnMaster> Funge-108 already defines it to -1
17:10:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, won't that make mycology go spare?
17:11:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it might say that it has to be at least 1 to make sense
17:11:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well ok
17:12:31 <asiekierka> Oh god, i still don't understand my code anymore
17:12:36 <asiekierka> And i think it has a large problem
17:13:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: looking at the code, I don't think it would say anything though
17:13:21 <asiekierka> MAAAN, i need to rewrite half of my code
17:13:25 <Deewiant> although that code is so hairy one can never be sure ;-)
17:13:33 <tusho> asiekierka: no
17:13:34 <tusho> just think about it
17:13:35 <tusho> P
17:13:37 <tusho> *:P
17:13:37 <Deewiant> asiekierka: hey, I've written the Befunge-93 section of Mycology 4 times now
17:13:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm
17:13:42 <Deewiant> at least, maybe more
17:13:52 <asiekierka> You know, it's about that
17:13:59 <asiekierka> i never decrease the loop value
17:14:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway efunge only does 93 (and still input is broken as it always display prompt and so on)
17:14:06 <asiekierka> and so it'll copy it to the same spot over
17:14:06 <asiekierka> and over
17:14:07 <asiekierka> and over
17:14:34 <ais523> Deewiant: incidentally, Mycology isn't valid Befunge-93 because it's so large, interfunge chokes on it unless I trim it down to size by hand, and nowhere in the Befunge-93 spec does it say overlarge programs are allowed
17:14:47 <Deewiant> ais523: but neither does it say they are disallowed ;-)
17:15:02 <ais523> Deewiant: well you can't assume an interpreter disregards them, I know at least one that errors instead
17:15:19 <Deewiant> yep, I know
17:15:32 <MikeRiley> i believe a befunge-93 interpreter should just ignore anything outside the 80x25...
17:15:34 <Deewiant> but it's easy enough to rip out the first 80*25
17:15:48 <Deewiant> or 24, I think I had a line left over ;-)
17:16:28 <Deewiant> ais523: I guess I could add a note to the readme about that
17:16:38 <asiekierka> My code is such a mess by now
17:16:47 <tusho> asiekierka: no its not
17:16:49 <tusho> stop being hyperactive
17:16:50 <tusho> and read it :P
17:16:52 <ais523> Deewiant: yes, that's what I did, I used a sed script (or possibly Perl, I can't remember) to trim it down to size
17:16:52 <asiekierka> Yes it is.
17:16:57 <tusho> asiekierka: so refactor it
17:17:00 <ais523> tusho: Befunge is quite hard to modify retroactively
17:17:10 <ais523> because often you haven't left enough space for whatever you want to add
17:17:14 <tusho> ais523: he has space.
17:17:26 <asiekierka> I do, but it's hard to restructure all the code.
17:17:28 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/EvOysD42.html
17:17:33 <asiekierka> That's what it looks like now
17:17:38 <asiekierka> I have a lot of space
17:17:42 <asiekierka> But it just looks like a mess
17:17:44 <tusho> looks fine to me
17:17:44 <dogface_> A compiler from Unlambda to 80x24 Befunge.
17:19:42 <asiekierka> Hopefully i'm nearly done with fixing it, i have the snippet, now paste it in all 3 places
17:19:55 <asiekierka> the snippet as in, the part of code to add everywhere
17:20:26 <ais523> dogface_: impossible in general, Unlambda's TC and Befunge-93 isn't
17:20:45 <asiekierka> So how is it possible i'm nearly done with a Cyclic Tag implementation
17:20:48 <AnMaster> befunge-98 is TC
17:20:57 <asiekierka> No implementation on the universe is turing complete anyway
17:21:01 <tusho> ais523: it is possible.
17:21:04 <tusho> he just has limits
17:21:15 <ais523> that's why I said "in general"
17:21:20 <AnMaster> ais523, you could fake it by connecting input to output for IO
17:21:24 <AnMaster> in 93
17:21:29 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, IIRC that's how Malbolge-T works
17:21:36 <AnMaster> yep
17:21:57 <ais523> if you output character code 59048 it backs the last char of the output into the first char of the input
17:22:02 <dogface_> ais523: then the compiler should either give you the program or tell you it can't be done.
17:22:04 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway Funge-98 is turing complete then, it got file IO
17:22:05 <ais523> so doing it repeated times lets you read further back in your own output
17:22:10 <dogface_> Or else run forever, looking for a solution.
17:22:37 <ais523> AnMaster: unfortunately, not quite, as the files are limited in size and the filenames are limited in length
17:22:51 <AnMaster> ais523, well that depends on platform
17:22:58 <AnMaster> ais523, same as for C
17:23:17 <ais523> hmm... actually, maybe the filenames aren't limited in length
17:23:23 <ais523> although filesize is limited to the size of fungespace
17:23:51 <ais523> filenames have to be stored on the stack, and as they're 0gnirts it might be possible to get some sort of bootstrapping up where you generated ever longer filenames using ever more files to store your temporary data
17:25:26 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway assuming filesystem is infinite then you could at least make size of funge space (2^32 * 2^32 for example) * 2^32 bytes of filename (a lot of possible combinations)
17:25:34 <AnMaster> so TC "for all practical purposes"
17:25:41 <ais523> well, yes
17:25:44 <AnMaster> which I'd claim any 32-bit Funge-98 already is!
17:25:48 <ais523> I like to think about the general case, though...
17:25:59 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway Funge-93 is turing complete if you use bignums
17:26:01 <AnMaster> like efunge does
17:26:16 <AnMaster> bignums, because that is what erlang use
17:36:44 <asiekierka> I don't remember whether my code works
17:36:54 <asiekierka> But i'll put it up because i'm tired of work on it
17:37:16 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/w0ZNlj53.html
17:37:18 <asiekierka> check it out
17:39:27 <asiekierka> and?
17:40:47 <asiekierka> AnMaster: funge space is 18446744073709551616 bytes?
17:41:12 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho|away.
17:41:23 <ais523> most Befunge programs aren't written to use bignums and store data Minsky-machine-style though
17:41:56 <asiekierka> ais523: how's my code thing
17:42:04 <asiekierka> the Cyclic Tag untested interpreter
17:42:09 <asiekierka> i don't even know if it's all ok
17:42:15 <ais523> asiekierka: I'm not really in a mood to try to read it right now
17:42:21 <ais523> I'm pretty tired, for one thing
17:42:28 <asiekierka> it's a mess, right?
17:42:31 <asiekierka> or is it not
17:42:44 <ais523> I don't know, Befunge code often looks like that whether or not it's well-written
17:43:09 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well in befunge
17:43:47 <AnMaster> it is 2^32 * 2^32
17:43:54 <AnMaster> logically
17:44:01 <asiekierka> of addressible space
17:44:01 <AnMaster> err, the number is signed
17:44:05 <AnMaster> so that means
17:44:11 <AnMaster> -1?
17:44:19 <AnMaster> or not?
17:44:28 <asiekierka> my number is unsigned
17:44:31 <AnMaster> in funge-98 negative funge space is valid
17:44:32 <asiekierka> well
17:44:34 <ais523> 2^32 == 0 on a 32 bit system
17:44:42 <asiekierka> i use calc.exe
17:44:43 <asiekierka> :P
17:44:43 <AnMaster> as in -43,-13
17:44:44 <asiekierka> also
17:44:45 <AnMaster> or whatever
17:44:54 <asiekierka> if we don't count negative space
17:44:57 <asiekierka> we still get 4611686018427387904 bytes
17:45:01 <AnMaster> err
17:45:08 <AnMaster> it is a signed 32-bit number for each dimension
17:45:15 <ais523> asiekierka: it's known that there's a bug in calc.exe, someone found it when testing for the OMGWTF competition but forgot how to reproduce it
17:45:15 <asiekierka> or 4294967296 terabytes
17:45:18 <AnMaster> assuming a 32-bit interpreter
17:45:24 <ais523> which is annoying because now nobody knows what it is
17:45:28 <AnMaster> asiekierka, oh I got a 64-bit funge interpreter here btw
17:46:00 <asiekierka> So it's 4096 exabytes of addressible space if we don't count negative :O
17:46:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, something like that yeah
17:46:22 <ais523> exbibytes, surely?
17:46:23 <AnMaster> so 4 times that
17:46:28 <AnMaster> for each quadrant
17:46:28 <asiekierka> yeah
17:46:33 <asiekierka> 16384 exabytes
17:46:33 <ais523> when you're up to exa vs. exbi it makes a lot of difference
17:46:34 <asiekierka> oh wait
17:46:38 <asiekierka> what's after exabytes
17:46:45 <ais523> yottabytes?
17:46:47 <AnMaster> (%i2) 2 ^ 32 * 2 ^ 32 ;
17:46:47 <AnMaster> (%o2)                        18446744073709551616
17:46:50 <ais523> I'm not sure but that seems right
17:46:52 <AnMaster> that is what maxima gives me
17:46:56 <asiekierka> 16 yottabytes
17:47:02 <asiekierka> oh my god
17:47:09 <asiekierka> or yotbibytes
17:47:10 <AnMaster> well...
17:47:15 <AnMaster> asiekierka, is that still 32-bit one?
17:47:28 <asiekierka> it's the 32-bit one counting negatives
17:47:37 <asiekierka> 2^32 * 2^32
17:47:38 <asiekierka> of course
17:47:48 <AnMaster> (%i4) ( 2 ^ 32 * 2 ^ 32 ) * 4 ;
17:47:48 <AnMaster> (%o4)                        73786976294838206464
17:47:51 <AnMaster> hm
17:47:54 <AnMaster> that is number of bytes
17:48:02 <AnMaster> can't get it to "4611686018427387904" at all
17:48:06 <asiekierka> i got it
17:48:07 <asiekierka> by
17:48:15 <asiekierka> (2 ^ 31 * 2 ^ 31)
17:48:21 <asiekierka> since i was not counting negative numbers
17:48:22 <AnMaster> -1?
17:48:35 <AnMaster> wait not -1
17:48:37 <asiekierka> nope
17:48:43 <AnMaster> as 0 is in positive quadrant
17:48:58 <AnMaster> (%i6) ( ( 2 ^ 64 ) * ( 2 ^ 64 ) ) * 8 ;
17:48:58 <AnMaster> (%o6)              2722258935367507707706996859454145691648
17:49:00 <AnMaster> for a 64-bit funge
17:49:02 <AnMaster> :D
17:49:12 <asiekierka> also
17:49:17 <asiekierka> what if we'd play a roleplay?
17:49:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, my cfunge allows it to be 64-bit at compile time
17:49:34 <AnMaster> that is compile time of interpreter
17:49:37 <asiekierka> a roleplay where... maybe uh... we're in a world where all esolangs control the universe.
17:49:48 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what is the time over there?
17:49:51 <AnMaster> 24h please
17:49:55 <AnMaster> I can't think in am/pm
17:49:56 <asiekierka> 18:49
17:49:59 <asiekierka> I ca
17:50:01 <asiekierka> I can
17:50:02 <AnMaster> well
17:50:10 <asiekierka> I should make a am/pm->24h converter in BF or Befunge
17:50:14 <AnMaster> seems too early for being *that* silly then ;P
17:50:20 <AnMaster> asiekierka, rather easy
17:50:30 <asiekierka> but oh well
17:50:38 <asiekierka> Let's just play that roleplay, shall we?
17:50:50 <asiekierka> a roleplay where... maybe uh... we're in a world where all esolangs control the universe. You can "program" the universe in this world.
17:50:56 <AnMaster> read number, read 2 chars (am or pm), select depending on a or p if you just output or add 12 and then output
17:51:02 <ais523> asiekierka: sounds great
17:51:11 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I'd opt out
17:51:22 <ais523> I had a nightmarish thing last night where some terrorists had effectively sandboxed the universe
17:51:34 <AnMaster> I don't actually code much in esolangs, I normally code interpreters for esolangs in non-esolangs
17:51:36 <ais523> thus were capable of allowing/preventing anything they liked happening more or less
17:51:37 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean
17:51:43 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I see what you mean
17:52:41 <AnMaster> ais523, would implementing intercal in a functional language be much harder than in a non-functional one?
17:52:47 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think so
17:52:53 <ais523> possibly it would even be easie
17:52:56 <ais523> s/$/r/
17:53:01 <AnMaster> even?
17:53:09 <AnMaster> it is hard to parse!
17:53:25 <AnMaster> though erlang got a parser generator called yrl
17:53:39 <ais523> AnMaster: in general functional langs can handle parsing better than imperative langs
17:53:41 <AnMaster> or something like that
17:53:42 <asiekierka> Well
17:53:43 <asiekierka> you know
17:53:48 <asiekierka> I think i'll allow real langs too
17:53:49 <ais523> although declarative langs lead to parsers which are easier to read but slower
17:53:53 <AnMaster> ah yecc
17:53:54 <AnMaster> that is it
17:54:00 <AnMaster> yrl is the file extension
17:54:03 <ais523> Haskell's Parsec library is effectively declarative in the way it works
17:54:06 <AnMaster> MODULE
17:54:06 <AnMaster>        yecc - LALR-1 Parser Generator
17:54:15 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
17:54:19 <ais523> oh and INTERCAL isn't quite LALR-1
17:54:21 <ais523> or even LR-1
17:54:23 <ais523> it is almost
17:54:25 <asiekierka> ok
17:54:27 <asiekierka> will we play it!?
17:54:30 <asiekierka> that roleplay
17:54:31 <ais523> but there are a few weirdnesses with ti
17:54:31 <asiekierka> finally
17:54:31 <AnMaster> ais523, what are those? I don't know really
17:54:33 <ais523> s/ti/it/
17:54:34 <asiekierka> Please
17:54:38 <ais523> AnMaster: parser models
17:54:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I see, yacc is LALR-1?
17:54:55 <asiekierka> Who's going to play the roleplay (i allowed real langs too), raise a hand
17:54:57 * asiekierka raises a hand
17:54:59 <ais523> basically LR(1) means that you can always parse the lang based on what you've seen so far and the next character
17:55:00 <AnMaster> according to man page it is
17:55:06 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, it is
17:55:16 <asiekierka> hello?
17:55:18 <AnMaster> ais523, same for bison then?
17:55:20 <ais523> hi asiekierka
17:55:29 <AnMaster> ais523, yet you use those to parse it?
17:55:34 <asiekierka> Ok
17:55:39 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, although bison also allows ELR(1) (I think that's what its called) which can parse anything but is inefficient on things that aren't LR(1)
17:55:51 <ais523> AnMaster: well, what I do is I put some of the parsing in the lexer
17:55:56 <asiekierka> :/
17:56:00 <asiekierka> :/
17:56:09 <ais523> bison sets flags which causes the lexer to lex differently
17:56:13 <AnMaster> ais523, there is no lexer generator for erlang I think
17:56:19 <ais523> and I maintain a stack of paren states by hand
17:56:35 <ais523> and that's enough to make the lang LR(1) and LALR(1) from the parser's point of view
17:56:56 <ais523> (LALR(1) is an optimisation of LR(1), which doesn't work on as many langs but is faster on the ones where it does, and is normally good enough in practice)
17:56:57 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well, I got no idea about that game
17:57:12 <AnMaster> ais523, what doesn't it work on then?
17:57:13 <AnMaster> C?
17:57:35 <ais523> AnMaster: no, the things which are LALR(1) and not LR(1) are mostly pathological
17:57:42 <ais523> whoops, got that backwards
17:57:50 <AnMaster> ais523, ah like INTERCAL?
17:57:51 <ais523> I mean the things that are LR(1) and not LALR(1) are mostly pathological
17:57:55 <ais523> AnMaster: INTERCAL is neither
17:58:00 <ais523> due to its array syntax
17:58:03 <AnMaster> ais523, which is even worse?
17:58:04 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:58:06 <ais523> yes
17:58:12 <ais523> in fact it isn't even LR(n) for any finite n
17:58:19 <AnMaster> eh?
17:58:19 <ais523> I went and proved that and wrote a little essay about it
17:58:29 <AnMaster> what does the n mean?
17:58:36 <ais523> AnMaster: lookahead amount
17:58:46 <ais523> you need infinite lookahead to parse INTERCAL's array syntax in general
17:59:08 <AnMaster> well what is ELR then?
17:59:10 <ais523> however there's a restriction in the spec that programmers aren't allowed to write array expressions that require more than one char lookahead to parse
17:59:17 <ais523> that was actually in the INTERCAL spec...
17:59:22 <ais523> AnMaster: LR(1) + backtracking, I think
17:59:31 <ais523> or not exactly backtracking as I think it multithreads
17:59:33 -!- asiekierka has joined.
17:59:35 <ais523> rather than backtracks
17:59:36 <asiekierka> ok back
17:59:38 <ais523> but it comes to the same thing
17:59:41 <AnMaster> ok so what are these array expressions that are a problem?
17:59:41 <asiekierka> So
17:59:47 <asiekierka> when we will get to the roleplay?
17:59:57 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I won't take part in it
18:00:04 <ais523> asiekierka: I have no idea what you're going on about really, I don't see how you could easily roleplay something like that
18:00:05 <asiekierka> But there are real langs too
18:00:06 -!- tusho|away has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:00:09 <asiekierka> and it's about virtually everything
18:00:12 <asiekierka> No
18:00:13 <asiekierka> no rules
18:00:17 <asiekierka> It's just to HAVE FUN.
18:00:23 <asiekierka> }}|{{
18:00:27 <ais523> asiekierka: I really don't understand what you're trying to do
18:00:34 <asiekierka> A roleplay
18:00:37 <asiekierka> With no rules
18:00:39 <asiekierka> We just walk around and do stuff
18:00:41 <asiekierka> and create stuff.
18:00:44 <ais523> yes, but those traditionally work very badly
18:00:44 <asiekierka> Yes, we create stuff.
18:00:50 <asiekierka> One didn't work out as bad
18:00:52 <asiekierka> i made tons of them
18:00:56 <asiekierka> and they turned out good
18:01:00 <ais523> you may as well make it a coderoleplay if you're doing it with programming langs
18:01:04 <ais523> and you'll end up inventing Second Life
18:01:31 <asiekierka> in Befunge-98
18:01:39 <AnMaster> "k on @ SHALL only kill the current IP in concurrent Funge." or "k on @ MUST only kill the current IP in concurrent Funge."
18:01:40 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
18:02:00 <ais523> SHALL and MUST are equivalent in specs IIRC, I'm more used to SHALL
18:02:09 <AnMaster> ais523, yes they are the same
18:02:16 <AnMaster> but which is best English
18:02:19 <AnMaster> that is what I wonder
18:02:29 <ais523> they're both correct in English, MUST is heard more often in conversations
18:02:34 <AnMaster> ok
18:02:54 <ais523> SHALL has an implication of future-tense about it when said casually, although that isn't part of its meaning
18:03:33 <asiekierka> You know
18:03:37 <asiekierka> I just want to have fun.
18:03:39 <asiekierka> Roleplay around.
18:03:42 <asiekierka> A lot
18:05:08 <AnMaster> ais523, % on negative numbers is undefined in funge-98, this led to the MODU fingerprint
18:05:16 <AnMaster> should it be well defined in 108?
18:05:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and MikeRiley too ^
18:05:28 <ais523> probably, define it the same way as C99 i suggest
18:05:40 <AnMaster> well I'm not sure everyone will be happy with that
18:05:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and MikeRiley: PING
18:06:13 <ais523> because the C standardisation committee had the same problem, and whatever solution they settled on is likely to have been chosen for a good reason
18:07:37 <MikeRiley> what what what???
18:07:45 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, % for negative numbers
18:07:48 <ais523> MikeRiley: % with negative numbers
18:07:51 <AnMaster> the reason for MODU
18:07:52 <MikeRiley> i think it should be defined...
18:08:00 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, right, question is, to what
18:08:04 <MikeRiley> even MODU was not well enough defined...
18:08:16 <AnMaster> true
18:08:21 <AnMaster> same way as C99?
18:08:25 <AnMaster> that is what I'd select
18:08:32 <MikeRiley> that is what i would select as well...
18:08:32 <AnMaster> but I need your and Deewiant's input on this
18:08:55 <MikeRiley> the C99 one makes more sense to me,,,,
18:09:54 <AnMaster> 1. Remainder by zero is subject to the same rules as division by zero. This rules take priority over rule two.
18:09:55 <AnMaster> 2. If either argument is negative, the result should be the same as in C99.
18:09:58 <AnMaster> what about that?
18:10:14 <ais523> sounds good
18:10:22 <ais523> incidentally, x/0 is just 0 nowadays?
18:10:25 <AnMaster> takes
18:10:27 <AnMaster> not take?
18:10:28 <AnMaster> err
18:10:29 <AnMaster> and rule
18:10:37 <AnMaster> "This rule takes priority over rule two."
18:10:38 <AnMaster> even
18:10:40 <ais523> yes, that's better
18:10:51 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes x/0 is 0 in Funge-98 and later
18:10:54 <ais523> I admit to rather liking the Befunge-93 ask-the-user-on-division-by-zero
18:10:58 <ais523> but it isn't very professional
18:10:59 <AnMaster> in funge-93 it was "ask user"
18:11:11 <ais523> and Funge /looks/ like a professional esolang
18:11:15 <ais523> even though there is no such thing
18:11:18 <AnMaster> hm efunge implements "result=0"
18:11:23 <AnMaster> for % and /
18:11:29 <AnMaster> no idea what it does for negative numbres
18:11:32 <AnMaster> numbers*
18:11:43 <AnMaster> cfunge *is* C99, so it will do C99 % in that case
18:12:16 <AnMaster> ais523, even better, you could give a funny message on it in 93
18:12:20 <AnMaster> something like:
18:12:52 <AnMaster> "Oops, we hit a division by zero (12/0), hm what should we use here?"
18:12:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: POING
18:13:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what about this for % in 108:
18:13:06 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> 1. Remainder by zero is subject to the same rules as division by zero. This rules take priority over rule two.
18:13:06 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> 2. If either argument is negative, the result should be the same as in C99.
18:13:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: might as well define it, I don't see why not
18:13:12 <AnMaster> I fixed grammer
18:13:16 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> "This rule takes priority over rule two."
18:13:22 <Deewiant> I think C99 has it defined the wrong way
18:13:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh? what way do you prefer?
18:14:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ?
18:14:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so that the result is always positive
18:14:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm why?
18:14:49 <AnMaster> ais523, me and MikeRiley are all for C99 way
18:14:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess this is because D does "always positive"?
18:15:04 <MikeRiley> the c99 way i think is reasonable...
18:15:11 <Deewiant> I think D is implementation-defined actually, not sure
18:15:52 <AnMaster> erlang seems to use C99 way
18:15:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: in number theory, it's the convention that it's always positive
18:16:09 <ais523> Deewiant: always positive with negative first argument in number theory
18:16:17 <ais523> but number theory doesn't use a negative second argument
18:16:19 <Deewiant> in programming languages, it tends to be the same sign of the dividend/divisor
18:16:47 <Deewiant> ais523: hmm, that's a point
18:17:08 <AnMaster> C99 seems to bascially x%abs(y)
18:17:15 <AnMaster> and use the sign of x
18:17:19 <AnMaster> or?
18:17:21 <Deewiant> in any case I'd prefer choosing the sign of the divisor over that of the dividend
18:17:26 <ais523> AnMaster: that seems wrong, surely
18:17:30 <Deewiant> i.e. the sign of y in that case
18:17:32 <AnMaster> err maybe I'm wrong then
18:17:47 -!- olsner has joined.
18:19:34 <AnMaster> $ ./a.out
18:19:34 <AnMaster> -3 % 2 = -1
18:19:34 <AnMaster> -3 % -2 = -1
18:19:34 <AnMaster>  3 % -2 = 1
18:19:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: is the funge frontend protocol meant to be fully textual? e.g. the integer 64 is sent as 0x36 0x34 and not 0x40
18:19:47 <ais523> AnMaster: oh dear, that certainly looks wrong to me
18:19:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the first should be 1 IMO
18:19:58 <AnMaster> ais523, could be a GCC bug?
18:20:02 * ais523 agrees with Deewiant, that's what it is in number theory
18:20:04 <ais523> AnMaster: I doubt it
18:20:29 <asiekierka> oh, does anyone want to check http://rafb.net/p/w0ZNlj53.html - that befunge untested Cyclic Tag interpreter
18:20:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the protocol is fully textual yes apart from the funge space dump thing iirc
18:20:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or maybe that one too?
18:20:48 <AnMaster> don't remember
18:20:54 <AnMaster> anyway it is simply easier to parse
18:21:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't know, but in any case I think you should state this explicitly, it wasn't completely clear to me :-)
18:21:31 <Deewiant> FSPACEDUMP looks to be textual as well
18:21:40 <AnMaster> ok
18:21:44 <Deewiant> unless "as an integer" means something different
18:21:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you are actually implementing it?
18:21:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it is probably textual then
18:22:05 <Deewiant> just came to mind
18:22:11 <Deewiant> as I was reading it and pondering
18:22:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I consider the front end protocol more or less something I don't plan to do now
18:22:33 <AnMaster> maybe sometime in the future
18:22:44 <AnMaster> at least "put on hold from my side"
18:22:53 <asiekierka> I need to make Befunge-64
18:22:59 <AnMaster> asiekierka, eh?
18:23:00 <asiekierka> As in, a version of befunge-93 for the c64
18:23:04 <AnMaster> ah
18:23:04 <Deewiant> then maybe I should implement it, so that I can set up a de facto standard which you need to follow when you write the spec ;-)
18:23:09 <asiekierka> For one thing, the boardsize is limited to 40x25
18:23:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, very funny :P
18:23:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but yes it is fully textual
18:23:49 <asiekierka> Another, there's a command s, to move the value that's on top of the stack to the very bottom of the stack
18:23:51 <AnMaster> 40?
18:24:07 <asiekierka> and q, to remove the value from the very bottom of the stack
18:24:13 <asiekierka> Yes
18:24:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, I doubt you'd be so stupid as to do completely the opposite to every choice I'd make, so it's not a bad plan ;-)
18:24:19 <asiekierka> C64's screen resolution is 40x25
18:24:24 <ais523> <asiekierka> Another, there's a command s, to move the value that's on top of the stack to the very bottom of the stack
18:24:28 <ais523> does that make Befunge TC?
18:24:32 <ais523> Befunge-93, that is?
18:24:32 <asiekierka> nopr
18:24:37 <asiekierka> nope, i think
18:24:42 <asiekierka> It only makes a possibility
18:24:44 <ais523> ah, yes, it does I think
18:24:48 <asiekierka> whoah
18:24:49 <asiekierka> how?
18:25:02 <asiekierka> There's still no unbounded storage
18:25:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ask me if stuff is unclear please
18:25:03 <ais523> because you can reserve a special sentinel value to separate stacks
18:25:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: certainly
18:25:12 <ais523> and use multiple stacks as unbounded storage
18:25:21 <asiekierka> But you can only have a single 4KB stack
18:25:22 <ais523> rotating between stacks by repeatedly using s until you hit the sentinel
18:25:31 <ais523> asiekierka: well if there's a 4KB limit it isn't TC
18:25:38 <asiekierka> but that's the limit of the c64
18:25:44 <asiekierka> there's only 4KB free ram while using C64 Basic
18:25:50 <ais523> but if the stack is unbounded, which it is in Befunge-93 in theory, then it's TC with your s instructio
18:25:54 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also s is a bad thing to select
18:26:08 <asiekierka> why
18:26:11 <AnMaster> like all other printable chars below 127 they are already in use in 98
18:26:23 <AnMaster> asiekierka, also note you should use ASCII
18:26:29 <asiekierka> Possible.
18:26:31 <AnMaster> because it is code point 32 that is space
18:26:39 <AnMaster> even if it doesn't look like a space on the local system
18:26:40 <asiekierka> I can put a custom charset for the c64
18:26:44 <AnMaster> the 98 specs say so clearly
18:26:54 <asiekierka> you can put a custom 256-char charset on the c64
18:26:57 <AnMaster> ok
18:27:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why is s a bad choice if he's doing Befunge-93
18:27:09 <AnMaster> hm
18:27:11 <Deewiant> it doesn't matter
18:27:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok good point
18:27:18 <AnMaster> for 93 it doesn't matter
18:28:01 <asiekierka> Also, i'd allow 80x25 size
18:28:06 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway messing with the bottom of the stack will make it slow
18:28:06 <asiekierka> either 40x25 or 80x25
18:28:18 <AnMaster> asiekierka, larger space is not an issue if it is unused
18:28:20 <asiekierka> Nope if i start the stack at the middle
18:28:26 <asiekierka> And just change the stack pointer value
18:28:37 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what if you need more than what you can fit on one side?
18:28:48 <AnMaster> you will need to reallocate the stack then
18:28:52 <asiekierka> It wouldn't get saved then.
18:29:01 <AnMaster> asiekierka, eh?
18:29:02 <asiekierka> Or something else
18:29:06 <asiekierka> I can use reallocation anyway
18:29:07 <AnMaster> wouldn't you reallocate the stack?
18:29:14 <asiekierka> but it'll make befunge64 a pain to use
18:29:45 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well start in the middle, and reallocate if you hit either edge and there is free space at the other edge
18:29:47 <asiekierka> Also, where can i play irc roleplays?
18:30:10 <ais523> asiekierka: no idea, try searching for them on the web, there's got to be one somewhere
18:30:18 <asiekierka> but not a "ircbot irc roleplay"
18:30:22 <asiekierka> a "freestyle irc roleplay"
18:30:23 -!- tusho has joined.
18:30:32 <ais523> wb tusho
18:30:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: are all errors meant to be sendable from either end? RANGE and FILEERR seem like they could only come from the interpreter
18:30:56 <tusho> When did I disco?
18:31:06 <asiekierka> Oh
18:31:11 <asiekierka> i don't need to reallocate
18:31:13 <asiekierka> i can do
18:31:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I'd need to check that
18:31:24 <asiekierka> e - replace the last value on the stack with the current error code
18:31:36 <tusho> wish I could learn languages as fast as asiekierka :P
18:31:39 <tusho> whatcha doin now
18:32:04 <asiekierka> want to play a freestyle irc roleplay; w/o an irc bot
18:32:13 <ais523> optbot: hi
18:32:14 <optbot> ais523: gimp and inkscape
18:32:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed they can probably only come from the interpreter
18:32:44 <tusho>  optbot: you should be in more channels shoudln't you
18:32:44 <optbot> tusho: You should be in a quantum superposition of dancing and not dancing!
18:32:57 <ais523> optbot: good counter
18:32:57 <optbot> ais523: What?
18:33:04 <AnMaster> ais523, Deewiant, by the way I got an interesting idea, *real* concurrent funge, like concurrency in erlang
18:33:17 <AnMaster> could be a pretty interesting fingerprint
18:33:28 <tusho> i guess optbot is saying that it's impossible for him to be in multiple channels like that
18:33:29 <optbot> tusho: yes
18:33:52 <AnMaster> wait
18:33:52 <asiekierka> why is he intelligent now
18:33:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and how would that work
18:33:57 <AnMaster> that made *sense*
18:34:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not sure
18:34:02 <ais523> incidentally, optbot, I like the topic
18:34:02 <optbot> ais523: NAND is the only operator you ever need.
18:34:04 <AnMaster> just an idea
18:34:08 <Deewiant> I've thought about "real" concurrency in funge
18:34:20 <Deewiant> but it seems to me the current model is as concurrent as you can get
18:34:23 <tusho> AnMaster: asiekierka: he has operating hours of intelligence
18:34:24 <tusho> I told you
18:34:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well distributed funge would be fun
18:34:37 <tusho> sometimes he makes perfect sense
18:34:45 <ais523> optbot: you do, don't you?
18:34:46 <optbot> ais523: how about we'll test its usefuless with the competition:
18:34:50 <tusho> xD
18:34:53 <asiekierka> optbot: What's the competition?
18:34:54 <optbot> asiekierka: yo
18:34:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: unless you want to have multiple threads executing in the interpreter, so that order of execution is undefined?
18:35:02 <asiekierka> optbot: No, but, what's the competition?
18:35:02 <optbot> asiekierka: nice of bc
18:35:06 <asiekierka> :(
18:35:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah
18:35:11 <asiekierka> the operation hour just ended
18:35:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: as for distributed, just make your CFFI and use MPI...
18:35:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but distributed funge *sounds* fun
18:35:20 <ais523> Deewiant: strangely, Threaded INTERCAL has 'ticks' too, at least in all known implementations
18:35:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nah, erlang style
18:35:36 <asiekierka> optbot: can you make sense?
18:35:36 <optbot> asiekierka: stillllll going
18:35:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what's the difference in style between erlang and MPI
18:35:44 <asiekierka> optbot: great.
18:35:44 <optbot> asiekierka: If you *insist* on doing the basic bootstrapping, you need to start with a system where you can input the individual bits yourself, and go up from there.
18:35:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't know MPI
18:35:53 <AnMaster> but does it use shared memory=
18:35:53 <asiekierka> optbot: oh, i see.
18:35:54 <optbot> asiekierka: !glass {M[m(_e)(Emote)!"is not!"(_e)e.?]}
18:35:54 <AnMaster> ?
18:35:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so why'd you say "nah, erlang style" :-P
18:35:59 <asiekierka> Whaaaatt?
18:36:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if it uses shared memory it will be different
18:36:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, it doesn't, Message Passing Interface
18:36:09 <AnMaster> ah
18:36:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, probably similar then
18:36:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and you know... we were talking distributed
18:36:25 <Deewiant> how exactly would you run distributed using shared memory
18:36:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, to the erlang program it all seems like they run on the same node
18:36:35 <AnMaster> it is all abstracted away
18:36:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: or rather, one can't tell the difference
18:36:43 <Deewiant> same in MPI
18:36:55 <AnMaster> well one can, by using node()
18:36:57 <Deewiant> although I think version 2 has something for finding out if they're on the same machine or not
18:37:03 <Deewiant> not sure
18:37:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there are ways to find out in erlang
18:37:19 <Deewiant> but anyhoo, I think they're quite similar in style
18:37:32 <AnMaster> and even way to use a specific system
18:37:33 <Deewiant> or paradigm, whatever
18:37:37 <AnMaster> but you don't need it
18:37:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, probably
18:37:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway concurrency work the same way in erlang
18:37:52 <AnMaster> message passing
18:37:53 <asiekierka> optbot: do you love someone?
18:37:53 <optbot> asiekierka: I thought that Easel, ESOapi or the like would be used for the os
18:38:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, I know
18:38:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway distributed funge *sounds* fun, even if it can't be done
18:38:25 <AnMaster> it it worth thinking about imo
18:38:30 <asiekierka> optbot: do you love someone?
18:38:31 <optbot> asiekierka: The internet lacks a Guy Fawkes smiley.
18:38:37 <asiekierka> optbot: do you love Guy Fawkes?
18:38:38 <optbot> asiekierka: Though I use vim all the time (in the vim-emacs war, there is only one), I don't know that I would qualify it as "good" in the modern world :)
18:38:49 <asiekierka> optbot: by it, you mean him?
18:38:49 <Deewiant> optbot: !
18:38:49 <optbot> asiekierka: there's just pronouns and noun genders, so i don't see how you could have less than finnish
18:38:49 <optbot> Deewiant: G'night (or morning) everyone.
18:38:59 <AnMaster> optbot, emacs!
18:38:59 <optbot> AnMaster: um
18:39:03 <asiekierka> optbot: what?
18:39:03 <optbot> asiekierka: "how's t going"?
18:39:03 <Deewiant> optbot: mu
18:39:03 <optbot> Deewiant: lCons
18:39:10 <asiekierka> optbot: deewiant
18:39:10 <optbot> asiekierka: Fuck you reader of my code
18:39:10 <AnMaster> optbot, yes emacs is better than vim!
18:39:10 <optbot> AnMaster:   Passed validation
18:39:11 <Deewiant> optbot: rSnoc
18:39:11 <optbot> Deewiant: ~exec self.raw("QUIT :Excess Flood")
18:39:14 <AnMaster> :D
18:39:18 <asiekierka> optbot, ur cool
18:39:18 <optbot> asiekierka: I've gotten 5 applications from them. . .
18:39:19 <asiekierka> optbot, ur cool
18:39:19 <asiekierka> optbot, ur cool
18:39:19 <optbot> asiekierka: up to you. do you want your real name in the source code of befunge interpreters? :-P
18:39:19 <optbot> asiekierka: OK I'll implement selector
18:39:20 <asiekierka> optbot, ur cool
18:39:20 <asiekierka> optbot, ur cool
18:39:20 <asiekierka> optbot, ur cool
18:39:20 <optbot> asiekierka: My bfgolf code is, in fact, 31 characters.
18:39:20 <optbot> asiekierka: MWAHAHAHA SOON MY CREATION IS COMPLETE
18:39:20 <optbot> asiekierka: We can add a character to be `a', and accented it becomes ``an''.
18:39:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> optbot, yes emacs is better than vim! <optbot> AnMaster:    Passed validation
18:39:22 <optbot> AnMaster: that was just the wrong channel :P
18:39:23 <Deewiant> optbot!
18:39:24 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Argh..
18:39:30 <AnMaster> asiekierka, stop the spam please
18:39:30 <asiekierka> optbot!
18:39:30 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i'm still wondering where the conversation with oerjan was....
18:39:36 <asiekierka> optbot!
18:39:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no please dont.
18:39:42 <tusho> asiekierka: stop
18:39:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, stop spamming please
18:39:46 <tusho> or I will make optbot ignore you
18:39:46 <optbot> tusho: abacus.kwzs.be/~bsmnt_bot
18:39:51 <tusho> learn your goddamn limits
18:39:57 <bsmntbombdood> what
18:40:01 <asiekierka> i stopped!
18:40:04 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: asiekierka was spamming
18:40:06 <tusho> like always
18:40:12 <tusho> asiekierka: you just don't know _when_ to stop
18:40:15 <asiekierka> :/
18:40:16 -!- MikeRiley has quit ("Leaving").
18:40:18 <asiekierka> ehird, that was mean
18:40:22 <tusho> no it wasn't
18:40:26 <asiekierka> yes it was
18:40:28 <asiekierka> as alays
18:40:31 <asiekierka> always*
18:40:40 <tusho> "you don't know when to stop" is a statement of fact and I think after that most here will agree
18:40:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, what is team in funge? it is mentioned in y in funge-98, but I can't find any info on it
18:40:53 <asiekierka> agreed
18:40:56 <asiekierka> with ehird
18:41:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "1 cell containing a unique team number for the current IP (ip)"
18:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Spelling out:.
18:41:33 * tusho will never understand why asiekierka will say I'm wrong, then I'll say why I said something, then he agrees with it (and it is always criticism of him)
18:41:37 * tusho shrugs
18:41:43 <ais523> AnMaster: not sure, but to me it seemed to imply some sort of code-wars style competition where multiple programs were busy trying to overwrite each other, but with teammates
18:41:58 <ais523> possibly that's too fanciful, but it sounds like a great idea
18:41:59 <ais523> optbot!
18:41:59 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | The big ones are Brainfuck, Befunge and Intercal..
18:42:05 <AnMaster> ais523, "Only significant for NetFunge, BeGlad, and the like."
18:42:14 <ais523> wow, we have a meaningful topic for once
18:42:21 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that line was what got me thinking
18:42:37 <fizzie> ITYM corewars; that's the program-overwriting game.
18:42:45 <asiekierka> i like corewars
18:42:47 <ais523> fizzie: yes, that's it
18:43:00 <ais523> there's FYB as a Brainfuck version but it's broken, it has a degenerate strategy
18:43:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't find any info on those
18:43:39 <tusho> ais523: i started to make BeYourFunge a while back
18:43:44 <ais523> AnMaster: esoprogramming stuff tends to disappear quickly, that's the problem
18:43:47 <tusho> befunge-93 wars
18:44:00 <AnMaster> ais523, I'll have to mail Pressy then...
18:44:04 <ais523> tusho: would probably work better than the Brainfuck version, and Befunge-93 is good as it would help to keep the playfield small
18:44:08 <ais523> which is important
18:44:14 <tusho> AnMaster: gregorr made FYB
18:44:18 <ais523> I suggest you just use regular Befunge-93, no modifications
18:44:19 <tusho> (FuckYorBrane)
18:44:26 <AnMaster> tusho, err...
18:44:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that is the only mention of teams I have found, ask Chris
18:44:38 <AnMaster> tusho, what?
18:44:38 <ais523> each program is 40x25, and each program's fungespace is the other's upside-down
18:44:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm
18:44:53 <Deewiant> I was just thinking of corewars in befunge a while ago
18:45:04 <Deewiant> don't think it would work out too well
18:45:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but is that what it is?
18:45:08 <ais523> and you win by getting the other program to execute @
18:45:20 <AnMaster> ais523, you need to disallow q then...
18:45:24 <ais523> AnMaster: basically multiple programs/processes running at the same time, trying to overwrite each other
18:45:26 <ais523> AnMaster: in Befunge-93?
18:45:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: like said, I only know what the spec says, which is to say, nothing
18:45:39 <AnMaster> ais523, if you want multiple programs on each side?
18:45:53 <Deewiant> hmm, befunge-93 instructions only might even make it meaningful
18:45:54 <ais523> AnMaster: then you'd need team numbers, presumanbly
18:46:12 <AnMaster> ais523, which means 98 or at least 93+threads
18:52:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: fatal ERRs shouldn't be responded to, right?
18:53:08 -!- Corun has joined.
18:53:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err let me check
18:53:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: say you get ERR MYCUSTOMERROR 1, in theory one would send "ERR UNSUPPARAM 1 what the hell kind of error is that"
18:53:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but since it's fatal anyway one it might make sense to not send anything
18:53:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so which is it? The PDF is silent :-)
18:54:06 <AnMaster> I think you should send "ERR UNSUPPARAM 1" to that then...
18:54:12 <AnMaster> and then close connection
18:54:26 <AnMaster> wait no
18:54:29 <AnMaster> probably not
18:54:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no reply needed since original one is fatal
18:55:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway custom error should have been negotiated with CAP first
18:55:41 <AnMaster> logically
18:56:15 <AnMaster> also the example for error got an error
18:56:26 <AnMaster> "ERR NOMEM 1 Could not allocate memory for setting cell."
18:56:29 <AnMaster> should be like that
18:56:49 <AnMaster> I will put up a fixed version before I go to bed, not now in case you got more questions
18:58:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes it should have been, but there's the possibility of bugs in either frontend or interpreter
18:59:22 <AnMaster> well since it is fatal it is probably pointless to send an error back
18:59:38 <Deewiant> alright
18:59:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, of course it may not be if there is a bug in the other end ;P
18:59:52 <ais523> "All errors except those not causing immediate termination of program execution are treated as fatal.2
18:59:53 <AnMaster> so it sends fatal when it shouldn't ;P
18:59:54 <ais523> s/2/"/
19:00:03 <AnMaster> ais523, eh?
19:00:06 <AnMaster> what is that from
19:00:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well that's its problem
19:00:11 <ais523> AnMaster: the original INTERCAL-72 manual
19:00:16 <AnMaster> ais523, oh um
19:00:28 <ais523> well, my memory of it, I might have misquoted slightly
19:00:29 <AnMaster> if it wasn't intercal I would say it was a typo
19:00:30 <AnMaster> :P
19:00:46 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it's just a double negative which leads to a tautology
19:00:56 <AnMaster> "tautology"?
19:01:16 <ais523> AnMaster: a statement that is true no matter what the state of the world due to its logical structure
19:01:21 <AnMaster> oh
19:01:24 <ais523> for instance "Either the sky is blue or the sky is not blue"
19:01:36 <AnMaster> or X = X?
19:01:52 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, unless X is NaN
19:02:06 <AnMaster> ais523, assuming algebra
19:02:11 <AnMaster> not computer arithmetics
19:02:41 <tusho> "longcat is long"
19:02:44 <tusho> an example closer to home :P
19:05:11 <AnMaster> tusho, eh?
19:05:26 <AnMaster> "closer to home"?
19:05:27 <tusho> AnMaster: tip - if I say something you don't understand ignore me
19:05:28 <tusho> :D
19:07:00 <oklopol> anyone here expert on movies?
19:07:07 <ais523> possibly, but I'm not
19:07:14 <oklopol> i'm kinda having a hard time searching a movie based on the outline of the plot.
19:07:17 <tusho> optbot: feather
19:07:17 <optbot> tusho: HARDWARE SUPPORT FOR LINKED LIST OPERATIONS.
19:07:21 <tusho> optbot: feather has that? cool
19:07:22 <optbot> tusho: I'm disappointed
19:10:04 <olsner> tusho: p(x) => p(x) for any x and p :P
19:10:36 <olsner> I mean... logical meme is logical
19:10:49 <tusho> haha
19:10:49 <ais523> olsner: what about p is the string "false; //" without the quotes
19:11:01 <asiekierka> optbot: What did you watch on youtube lately?
19:11:01 <optbot> asiekierka: Hi oerjan
19:11:02 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:11:02 <ais523> or can I not do comment injection into tautologies?
19:11:10 <asiekierka> The operating hours ended :(
19:11:14 <asiekierka> optbot: Aww.
19:11:14 <optbot> asiekierka: E!ps
19:11:19 <asiekierka> optbot: I knew it!
19:11:19 <optbot> asiekierka: do you return EXIT_SUCCESS; from main() on a successful termination?
19:11:19 <Deewiant> oklopol: you can, of course, ask anyway, in case somebody knows the movie. :-P
19:11:27 <ais523> wow, EsoBot hasn't been in here for ages
19:11:29 <asiekierka> optbot: your operating hours ended :(
19:11:29 <optbot> asiekierka: isn't it just a certain kind of corn?
19:11:38 <ais523> and E! was its command prefix IIRC
19:11:49 <tusho> ais523: the shell thing?
19:11:49 <oklopol> well, there's this monster that eats a town full of people about every 10000 years.
19:12:02 <ais523> tusho: I'm not entirely sure what it did, just Brainfuck I think
19:12:10 <tusho> ais523: no calamari's EsoBot was a shell
19:12:13 <tusho> a full virtualised system
19:12:15 <tusho> with root
19:12:17 <ais523> wow
19:12:17 <oklopol> movie starts with two women entering a town, and finding that everyone is dead
19:12:25 <oklopol> cuz, the monster has decided to eat them ofc
19:12:33 <tusho> ais523: he got rid of it because he threw a tizzy fit when we started messing with it and messing up the system
19:12:48 <oklopol> the monster looks kinda like a butterfly, and can shoot massive fireballs, apparently.
19:12:52 <ais523> tusho: what would people expect, this is #esotericc
19:12:55 <tusho> ais523: blabbing like "IT'S MEANT FOR TESTING NEW ESOLANGS!!!11" and we told him that we had perfectly good computers for that, but we liked EsoBot because it's fun to see how it can survive
19:12:56 <oklopol> you only see it once, very briefly
19:12:59 <ais523> well, without the extra c
19:13:06 <tusho> ais523: and he just whined about how we were immature and got rid of it
19:13:13 * tusho shrugs
19:13:28 <ais523> IIRC bsmntbombdood actively encouraged people to try to hack into the computer bsmnt_bot was running on via the bot
19:13:39 <bsmntbombdood> lol that's right
19:13:48 <tusho> hah that's great
19:13:54 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: can bsmnt_bot return?
19:13:57 <tusho> we need brainfuck and stuff
19:13:58 <tusho> and egobot is dead
19:14:09 <asiekierka> yeah
19:14:09 <bsmntbombdood> tusho: i've kind of, er, lost access to the server it ran on
19:14:16 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: I have a nice server
19:14:16 <tusho> :3
19:14:20 <AnMaster> tusho, what happened to egobot
19:14:23 <tusho> AnMaster: dunno
19:14:28 <AnMaster> who owned it?
19:14:33 <tusho> AnMaster: gregor
19:14:36 <ais523> GregorR I think
19:14:40 <AnMaster> where is he then?
19:14:41 <tusho> greEGOrr
19:14:45 <ais523> it was open-source, though
19:14:47 <tusho> AnMaster: a while back he was in prague
19:14:49 <oklopol> Deewiant: did you know it? :)
19:14:55 <ais523> and the source is in the Esoteric Files Archive
19:14:58 <Deewiant> oklopol: nope :-P
19:15:02 <Deewiant> oklopol: maybe one of http://www.imdb.com/keyword/giant-monster/giant-insect/ ?
19:15:02 <ais523> so someone could try to resurrect it, though
19:15:02 <tusho> ais523: i'd prefer to revive bsmnt_bot, though
19:15:07 <tusho> because we can make it behave the exact same
19:15:15 <ais523> it wasn't perfect, though, someone DOSed Gregor's server using EgoBot
19:15:16 <tusho> and it has more extensibility
19:15:28 -!- Iskr has left (?).
19:15:29 <asiekierka> I could try to host it
19:15:29 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe I'd code one in erlang ;P
19:15:31 <AnMaster> j/k
19:15:32 <asiekierka> But i have windows
19:15:33 <ais523> tusho: EgoBot was extensible, I added Underload to it using Keymaker's Underload-in-Brainfuck program
19:15:40 <tusho> ais523: but not via IRC
19:15:44 <asiekierka> and also i can't really do it at fast speed
19:15:45 <tusho> tell you what
19:15:46 <tusho> I'll put up both
19:15:53 <AnMaster> tusho, actually hooking up a esolang server to a bot framework would be easy in erlang
19:15:55 <asiekierka> 3kbps
19:15:57 <AnMaster> I mean adding new ones
19:15:58 <asiekierka> upload
19:15:58 -!- tusho has changed nick to bsmnt_bot.
19:16:02 <ais523> tusho: yes I did, I got it to load the Underload interpreter from pastebin by sending commands over IRC
19:16:04 <AnMaster> tusho, what do you think of that idea?
19:16:10 <bsmnt_bot> bsmntbombdood: if you want it back, drop this nick and gimme the source
19:16:10 <bsmnt_bot> :P
19:16:22 <AnMaster> bsmnt_bot, ^
19:16:24 <AnMaster> tusho ^
19:16:27 <AnMaster> ehird ^
19:16:28 <bsmnt_bot> AnMaster: botte is superior
19:16:30 <bsmnt_bot> :)
19:16:33 <bsmnt_bot> anyway.
19:16:37 <asiekierka> Also, does anyone have a shell-like utility for windows
19:16:37 * bsmnt_bot finds egobot source
19:16:38 <ais523> tusho: botte is nonexistent
19:16:40 <AnMaster> erlang irc bot + esolang servers
19:16:41 <asiekierka> so i can put up a shell on windows
19:16:42 <AnMaster> :D
19:16:43 <AnMaster> would
19:16:44 <bsmnt_bot> ais523: and so is AnMaster's
19:16:44 <AnMaster> rock
19:16:52 <AnMaster> indeed
19:16:53 <AnMaster> it is
19:16:56 <AnMaster> it was just an idea
19:16:57 <asiekierka> Is there a windows shell server?
19:17:02 <AnMaster> that I may never implement
19:17:03 <asiekierka> supporting irc
19:17:03 * bsmnt_bot sets up egobot and maybe bsmnt_bot if bsmntbombdood gives me the source
19:17:11 <AnMaster> I don't even pretend I do
19:17:14 <AnMaster> asiekierka, eww
19:17:20 <AnMaster> windows shell server!?
19:17:21 <AnMaster> wtf
19:17:28 <asiekierka> a shell server running on windows
19:17:34 <AnMaster> does that exist?
19:17:35 <asiekierka> or at least something to put an esolang bot
19:17:40 <AnMaster> it shouldn't exist
19:17:42 <asiekierka> Yeah, sorta, for telnet/ssh
19:17:43 <AnMaster> it is a horrible idea
19:17:49 <bsmnt_bot> !! here comes egobot !!
19:17:51 <bsmnt_bot> ais523: name our egobot
19:17:53 -!- lament has joined.
19:17:56 <lament> saluton
19:17:57 <AnMaster> a shell server should run *nix
19:18:00 <AnMaster> asiekierka, ^
19:18:00 <bsmnt_bot> Egorbot? :P
19:18:00 <asiekierka> oh, hi, egobot
19:18:03 <asiekierka> wait, you're not egobot
19:18:08 <asiekierka> you're lament
19:18:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: haha, nice sentence in your spec
19:18:12 <bsmntbombdood> give me a minute
19:18:12 <Deewiant> "The identifier is used in for when activating extensions to refer to these them."
19:18:16 <lament> asiekierka: a common mistake
19:18:17 <bsmnt_bot> yay
19:18:17 <ais523> tusho: GregorR didn't want people using the "Ego" prefix
19:18:19 <bsmnt_bot> bsmnt_bot will come too!
19:18:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, some typo
19:18:23 <bsmnt_bot> ais523: ah true
19:18:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what section?
19:18:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 4.2.3
19:18:31 <bsmnt_bot> ais523: ErgoBot?
19:18:32 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to ErgoBot.
19:18:35 <ais523> ah, I like that
19:18:42 <ErgoBot> taken
19:18:42 <lament> fi, beautiful
19:18:52 <ais523> what, by you or by someone else?
19:18:53 -!- ErgoBot has changed nick to IdBot.
19:18:56 <IdBot> freud!
19:18:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I'm not sure what it meant
19:19:07 <asiekierka> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
19:19:14 <asiekierka> :(
19:19:17 <asiekierka> not yet?
19:19:17 <lament> :(
19:19:21 <IdBot> asiekierka: be patient
19:19:26 <asiekierka> Oh well, i'll run it on my mIRC
19:19:26 <asiekierka> as in
19:19:27 <AnMaster> "The identifier is used when activating extensions to refer to them."
19:19:27 <lament> !optbot
19:19:28 <optbot> lament: heh
19:19:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does that make sense?
19:19:37 <lament> !optbot
19:19:38 <optbot> lament: me having PSOX on highlight?
19:19:48 <lament> optbot: yes.
19:19:48 <optbot> lament: I guess it checks hardlinks
19:19:53 <asiekierka> i do /brainfuck (code) and what i /msg to the chan i said it in is the output
19:19:55 <lament> optbot: so you have PSOX hardlinked?
19:19:55 <optbot> lament: I resubmitted it
19:19:56 <asiekierka> for example, i'll /brainfuck ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
19:19:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "The identifier is used to refer to extensions when activating them."?
19:19:59 <asiekierka> Hello�World!
19:20:01 <asiekierka> Done
19:20:04 <IdBot> asiekierka shut up :P
19:20:07 <lament> optbot: ok, i'll check the mailbox
19:20:08 <optbot> lament: CPU lag/queue? you dont get your water till something else comes down the pipe...
19:20:09 <asiekierka> So tell me what code shall i run
19:20:24 <IdBot> hmm
19:20:24 <Deewiant> asiekierka: []
19:20:27 <IdBot> ais523: EgoBot isn't registered
19:20:27 <lament> optbot: i know, i thought that would be an issue, but it seems to work in practice
19:20:27 <optbot> lament: Lincoln's Gettysburg Address?
19:20:30 <IdBot> shall I just call it that?
19:20:33 <IdBot> as it is just egobot
19:20:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, probably
19:20:35 <IdBot> until gregorr is here
19:20:37 <lament> optbot: okay, now you're just talking nonsense
19:20:37 <optbot> lament: squyyyyyy
19:20:40 -!- IdBot has changed nick to EgoBot.
19:20:41 <EgoBot> hm
19:20:42 <EgoBot> it IS taken
19:20:46 <EgoBot> odd
19:20:48 -!- EgoBot has changed nick to IdBot.
19:20:52 <IdBot> egobot itself doesn't identify
19:20:57 <asiekierka> let's call him ehirdbot
19:20:57 <ais523> this is getting confusing
19:21:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: oh, and I think protocol negotiation needs a "DONE" msg or some such from interpreter, or empty CAP
19:21:12 <IdBot> ais523: ok, I'm setting up egobot
19:21:13 -!- IdBot has changed nick to tusho.
19:21:14 <ais523> oh, I /so/ want to implement CTCP SWAPNICK now...
19:21:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah hm...
19:21:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: er, from frontend
19:21:21 <tusho> ais523: as IdBot
19:21:26 <tusho> bsmntbombdood is apparently getting the bsmnt_bot source
19:21:29 <tusho> so that will be back too
19:21:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: because it now says "may activate extensions by sending CAP"
19:21:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh yes for no caps
19:21:50 <AnMaster> empty CAP I'd say
19:21:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but the state should change to pre-run, where CAP is invalid, after that
19:22:00 <Deewiant> yeah, that's what I'd do too
19:22:13 <bsmntbombdood> i haven't written code for like 6 months
19:22:18 <tusho> /usr/bin/ld: safe.o: relocation R_X86_64_32 against `a local symbol' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
19:22:24 <tusho> i fucking hate ckpt
19:22:26 <bsmntbombdood> i probably won't even be able to get bsmnt_bot working again
19:22:35 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: i just need the source
19:22:37 <tusho> and the nick
19:22:40 <tusho> for it to return :P
19:22:41 <AnMaster> "If the front end doesn't want to activate any extensions, it should send an empty CAP."
19:22:42 <ais523> tusho: ckpt?
19:22:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
19:22:49 <tusho> ais523: linux process suspend library
19:22:51 <tusho> that egobot uses
19:22:53 <tusho> its so broken
19:22:55 <tusho> doesnt' compile on anything
19:23:06 <ais523> "process suspend library"?
19:23:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: s/front end/frontend/
19:23:15 <asiekierka> Also, tusho, could you please add a befunge interpreter?
19:23:15 <AnMaster> tusho, "suspend library"?
19:23:16 <bsmntbombdood> tusho ain't got teh skillz
19:23:20 <asiekierka> Oh wait, befunge is impossible
19:23:26 <asiekierka> Except if you do a shell script
19:23:31 <ais523> asiekierka: no it isn't, EgoBot implemented it
19:23:35 <asiekierka> Wha?
19:23:37 <asiekierka> In 2D?
19:23:40 <tusho> as a URI
19:23:41 <AnMaster> tusho, and yeah use -fpic when you compile libraries
19:23:43 <ais523> you pastebinned the Befunge and gave it a link to the pastebin
19:23:44 <AnMaster> tusho, really
19:23:47 <asiekierka> oh
19:23:54 <tusho> AnMaster: egobot's makefile doesn't
19:23:57 <tusho> I had to edit the makefile
19:24:00 <tusho> gcc -shared -fPIC -nostartfiles -Xlinker -Bsymbolic \
19:24:01 <tusho>            -o librestart.so safe.o /usr/lib/libc.a
19:24:01 <tusho> gcc -shared -fPIC -nostartfiles -Xlinker -Bsymbolic \
19:24:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right
19:24:05 <tusho>            -o librestart.so safe.o /usr/lib/libc.a
19:24:12 <tusho> err
19:24:12 <AnMaster> tusho, well you'd need -fpic on x86_64
19:24:13 <tusho> gcc -shared -fPIC -nostartfiles -Xlinker -Bsymbolic \
19:24:13 <tusho>            -o librestart.so safe.o /usr/lib/libc.a
19:24:18 <AnMaster> but not on x86
19:24:21 <asiekierka> Will there be a contest to hack on it
19:24:22 <AnMaster> tusho, and use lower case pic
19:24:23 <AnMaster> really
19:24:23 <asiekierka> xD
19:24:25 <tusho> sorry
19:24:25 <tusho> basically
19:24:26 <tusho> AnMaster: I did -fpic!!!!
19:24:27 <tusho> But it gives the same error.
19:24:35 <AnMaster> tusho, not -fPIC but -fpic yes
19:24:45 <tusho> AnMaster: SAME ERROR
19:24:50 <AnMaster> tusho, make clean in between?
19:25:03 <tusho> SAME ERROR
19:25:05 <tusho> :|
19:25:09 <tusho> because AnMaster
19:25:09 <asiekierka> Why does it use ckpt? For what?
19:25:11 <AnMaster> tusho, link to this source?
19:25:14 <tusho> AnMaster: it links /usr/lib/libc.a
19:25:14 <asiekierka> process suspend
19:25:20 <AnMaster> tusho, well fix that then
19:25:23 <tusho> AnMaster: I CAN'T
19:25:26 <tusho> THAT'S HOW CKPT WORKS
19:25:32 <AnMaster> tusho, err that makes no sense
19:25:38 <AnMaster> make ckpt a static library then
19:25:40 <AnMaster> that would work
19:25:42 <AnMaster> brb food
19:25:43 <tusho> AnMaster: i can't!
19:25:54 <tusho> i'm not some magical genie who can understand crazy code like ckpt as soon as I see it!
19:26:12 <asiekierka> Also, can you put up Frotz or something, for IF games
19:26:20 <asiekierka> So we can play interactive fiction
19:26:27 <asiekierka> Anyone will be able to issue commands
19:26:32 <tusho> no
19:26:42 <asiekierka> why :(
19:27:00 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:27:02 <asiekierka> why (._.( yhw
19:27:10 -!- Judofyr has joined.
19:28:09 <asiekierka> oh
19:28:10 <asiekierka> i see
19:28:15 <asiekierka> you want me to put up my own bot for that
19:28:24 <tusho> no
19:28:28 <tusho> this is not #if
19:28:36 <asiekierka> But it'll be there for fun
19:28:43 <tusho> not in here it won't be
19:28:44 <asiekierka> just like a channel about an old GCS
19:28:48 <asiekierka> has a werewolf engine
19:28:55 <tusho> hey lament
19:29:00 <tusho> do you want a spammy interactive fiction bot in here?
19:29:01 <tusho> hmm?
19:29:04 <asiekierka> Nope
19:29:10 <asiekierka> it'll only work when you enable it, tusho.
19:29:10 <tusho> I was asking lament asiekierka
19:29:13 <asiekierka> and by you i mean YOU.
19:29:23 <tusho> yes, I'd so love to have a command that spams up this channel on demant
19:29:24 <tusho> *demand
19:29:33 <asiekierka> You can put it to #irp
19:29:39 <tusho> no i couldn't
19:29:40 <tusho> I don't want one
19:29:42 <tusho> I wouldn't use one
19:29:46 <tusho> I have no incentive to write/download one
19:29:47 <tusho> end
19:30:03 <asiekierka> so what will it have except esolang support
19:30:08 <tusho> nothin
19:30:08 <tusho> g
19:30:20 <asiekierka> what esolangs will it support then
19:30:27 <tusho> what egobot supported
19:30:35 <asiekierka> what did he support
19:30:37 <tusho> ais523: any ideas about ckpt
19:30:41 <tusho> asiekierka: i don't know. lots
19:30:58 <ais523> tusho: no, I don't know what it is
19:31:08 <tusho> ais523: cd ~tusho/egobot*/ckpt
19:31:09 <ais523> asiekierka: quite a lot of popular ones
19:31:16 <ais523> tusho: I'm in the middle of two other things atm
19:31:21 <asiekierka> ais523: INTERCAL!?
19:31:25 <ais523> no
19:31:38 <ais523> figuring out why normish was blacklisted for spamming, and writing a technology report for Wikipedia
19:31:49 <asiekierka> what about brainfork
19:31:52 <asiekierka> or piet
19:32:08 <ais523> it did at least one image-based language I think, not sure if it did piet though
19:32:17 <asiekierka> it could do brainloller/braincopter
19:32:29 <asiekierka> since it'd be just running a brainloller/braincopter2bf and running !bf
19:32:56 <AnMaster> tusho, idea then
19:32:57 <AnMaster> -m32
19:33:05 <AnMaster> that ought to work if you have multilib
19:33:22 <AnMaster> also where is the source for that library
19:34:55 <tusho> AnMaster: what is the name for the libc.a for 32 bit?
19:34:58 <tusho> if I have multilib
19:35:12 <AnMaster> tusho, it would be in /usr/lib32 probably
19:35:35 <tusho> mem.c: In function 'call_with_new_stack':
19:35:36 <tusho> mem.c:291: error: 'JB_SP' undeclared (first use in this function)
19:35:37 <tusho> wtfoo :\
19:35:57 <AnMaster> tusho, well that is an error related to something not being declared
19:36:02 <AnMaster> you'd need to check the source
19:36:12 <tusho> AnMaster: I know C god damnit
19:36:21 <tusho> JB_SP is an internal elf/linux thing I believe
19:36:26 <AnMaster> oh my
19:36:31 <tusho>                 /* FIXME: Looks like there are about 16 bytes on the
19:36:31 <tusho>                    stack that will be unwound by the return and call
19:36:31 <tusho>                    to fn */
19:36:32 <tusho>                 jbuf[0].__jmpbuf[JB_SP] = stack_base;
19:36:35 <AnMaster> tusho, what does that ckpt thing do?
19:36:41 <tusho> AnMaster: suspends processes to disk
19:36:42 <tusho> I told you
19:36:54 <AnMaster> tusho, err, like core dumps that can be resumed?
19:36:59 <AnMaster> wtf
19:37:00 <tusho> pretty much
19:37:06 <ais523> AnMaster: well emacs does that
19:37:07 <AnMaster> tusho, that sounds like what emacs does
19:37:11 <tusho> AnMaster: egobot uses it for keeping state on all the esolang interps it uses
19:37:19 <AnMaster> ais523, as I said just half a second before (from my side)
19:37:26 <AnMaster> tusho, which is pretty wtf
19:37:39 <ais523> well I said it about half a second before at my end, so the messages must have crossed
19:37:49 <AnMaster> tusho, what I find most interesting is that it could probably be done pretty easily and cleanly in erlang
19:37:49 <AnMaster> ;P
19:38:00 <ais523> AnMaster: even more cleanly and easily in Smalltalk
19:38:06 <tusho> AnMaster: Could it survive a system crash?
19:38:07 <tusho> No.
19:38:10 <AnMaster> tusho, yes
19:38:12 <asiekierka> How's egobot coming?
19:38:13 <AnMaster> distributed
19:38:14 <ais523> or Underlambda for that matter because its continuations can be written out to disk
19:38:15 <AnMaster> tusho, :)
19:38:15 <ais523> and reloaded
19:38:21 <AnMaster> tusho, another node could
19:38:22 <tusho> AnMaster: Yes because I have 50 servers to run egobot on
19:38:27 <AnMaster> and then restart the first node
19:38:37 <AnMaster> tusho, or you could probably suspend a erlang process to disk
19:38:39 <AnMaster> also
19:38:48 <AnMaster> tusho, why the heck does it need to suspend state across a crash?
19:38:57 <tusho> AnMaster: I DON'T KNOW HOW EGOBOT WORKS
19:39:01 <tusho> WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK I DO
19:39:07 <ais523> AnMaster: imagine an esolang like Network Headache
19:39:08 <AnMaster> if it need permanent data, use a database
19:39:15 <AnMaster> ais523, what is that one?
19:39:15 <tusho> AnMaster: IT USES THIRD-PARTY INTERPS
19:39:17 <tusho> NOT ITS OWN
19:39:29 <ais523> AnMaster: all Network Headache programs everywhere share the same IP and variables
19:39:36 <AnMaster> ais523, it exists?
19:39:38 <ais523> and bits of code from all of them are run one after another
19:39:42 <ais523> AnMaster: I think so, there's an interp somewhere
19:39:55 <ais523> ofc the nature of the language is that there can only ever possibly be one interp for it
19:39:58 <asiekierka> I must add one command to Befunge
19:40:04 <asiekierka> Befunge-64 of course
19:40:12 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Network_Headache
19:40:14 <AnMaster> oh my
19:40:19 <asiekierka> you know, befunge-93 with the command s that takes the top of the stack to the bottom
19:40:31 <asiekierka> or not
19:40:35 <AnMaster> hm
19:40:37 <tusho> asiekierka: you don't need it
19:40:39 <tusho> befunge-93 is almost TC
19:40:40 <asiekierka> I just wanted to make a Robot Finds Kitten game for befunge
19:40:41 <AnMaster> you mentioned s before
19:40:43 <tusho> you can implement tc
19:40:46 <tusho> tusho@rutian:~/egobot-0.12/ckpt$ find /usr/include -exec grep JB_SP {} \;
19:40:47 <tusho> tusho@rutian:~/egobot-0.12/ckpt$
19:40:47 <tusho> :|
19:41:00 <asiekierka> yes, robotfindskittenfunge
19:41:07 <asiekierka> Or even invent a fungeoid
19:41:10 <asiekierka> a RobotFindsKittenfunge
19:41:20 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
19:41:24 <AnMaster> tusho, is it elf related you said?
19:41:28 <tusho> AnMaster: setjmp related
19:41:33 <tusho> some internal thing
19:41:54 <AnMaster> tusho, it shouldn't mess in internal stuff
19:41:57 <ais523> the initials JB did remind me of setjmp
19:41:59 <AnMaster> probably broke it
19:42:09 <tusho> AnMaster: YEAH BECAUSE SUSPENDING PROCESSES IS TRIVIAL TO DO PORTABLY RIGHT
19:42:09 <AnMaster> $ grep -R JB_SP /usr/lib/binutils/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/2.18/include/
19:42:16 <AnMaster> $ grep -R JB_SP /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/include/
19:42:17 <AnMaster> nothing
19:42:29 * AnMaster checks 3.x too
19:42:31 <ais523> tusho: it is, just use Underlambda
19:42:45 <ais523> it's specified in the Underlambda specs that you can write functions out to disk and reload them from disk
19:42:49 <ais523> and a continuation is a type of function
19:42:51 <ais523> so it's easy
19:42:58 -!- tusho has changed nick to IdBot.
19:43:03 -!- IdBot has changed nick to tusho.
19:43:20 <AnMaster> hm
19:43:26 <AnMaster> ais523, what about haskell then?
19:43:38 <ais523> I don't think you can do that i nHaskell
19:43:47 <ais523> or indeed in most langs
19:43:58 <ais523> most langs don't have an output-a-function command
19:44:02 <AnMaster> ais523, I think you may be able to seralize a erlang process, but not sure
19:44:02 <ais523> nor an input-a-function
19:44:36 <AnMaster> ais523, erlang certainly got "(un)seralize a term"
19:44:47 <ais523> AnMaster: and terms can be functions?
19:44:54 <ais523> does it have continuations?
19:44:55 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't *think* so
19:44:57 <AnMaster> but not sure
19:45:02 <AnMaster> ais523, continuations hm
19:45:06 <ais523> if you can serialise a continuation you can freeze the program
19:45:15 <AnMaster> what one is that now again
19:45:24 <AnMaster> closures and continuations
19:45:26 <AnMaster> always mix them up
19:45:28 <AnMaster> :/
19:45:29 <ais523> continuations are like TRDS only saner
19:45:42 <AnMaster> ais523, ah no idea then
19:46:03 <AnMaster> erlang got closures I think, but continuations... no idea
19:46:34 <AnMaster> tusho, I guess JB_SP is some deprecated thing then
19:46:53 <AnMaster> tusho, I found it...
19:46:55 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-i386/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __esp
19:46:55 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-x86_64/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __rsp
19:47:10 <AnMaster> which is very wtf
19:47:11 <AnMaster> :P
19:47:33 <AnMaster> nothing in non-um arch either it seems
19:47:47 * AnMaster waits for grep to finish
19:48:03 <AnMaster> nop
19:48:17 <AnMaster> and um = user mode linux
19:48:52 <AnMaster> tusho, doesn't really help at all
19:49:09 <ais523> what does __esp do?
19:49:26 <ais523> wait... is it actually manipulating the individual registers on the processor?
19:49:48 <AnMaster> esp is a register yes
19:49:48 <ais523> those defines are named after the stack pointer for x86 and x86_64
19:49:59 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-i386/archsetjmp.h-#define JB_IP __eip
19:49:59 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-i386/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __esp
19:50:04 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-x86_64/archsetjmp.h-#define JB_IP __rip
19:50:05 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/arch/um/include/sysdep-x86_64/archsetjmp.h:#define JB_SP __rsp
19:50:11 <AnMaster> from context grep
19:50:12 <AnMaster> and
19:50:19 <AnMaster> it doesn't occur outside user mode linux
19:50:33 <asiekierka> how's egobot coming?
19:50:42 <AnMaster> asiekierka, most likely "not at all"
19:51:07 <AnMaster> thanks to broken lib
19:51:14 <AnMaster> btw who owns the esolangs.org server?
19:51:20 <ais523> AnMaster: graue
19:51:38 <AnMaster> ais523, never seen that nick here
19:52:11 <ais523> AnMaster: he doesn't come here often, although he tends to respond quickly to email when I email him about a server problem
19:52:17 <AnMaster> ah
19:52:31 <AnMaster> ais523, so who can put stuff up on the file archive and such on the server?
19:52:34 <AnMaster> only him?
19:52:40 <ais523> there were a few others, I think
19:52:52 <AnMaster> no longer?
19:52:53 <ais523> IIRC Keymaker had write access
19:53:01 <AnMaster> again someone I never heard of
19:53:03 <ais523> AnMaster: no idea, presumably they still have access
19:53:07 <asiekierka> is there any link to a ckpt website in source code
19:53:09 <ais523> AnMaster: you should have heard of Keymaker
19:53:13 <AnMaster> ais523, nop
19:53:14 <asiekierka> a website about ckpt
19:53:17 <asiekierka> even a dead link
19:53:19 <ais523> quite the prolific esolangers
19:53:24 <ais523> s/s$//
19:53:33 <AnMaster> asiekierka, tried google?
19:53:37 <ais523> he wrote an Underload intepreter, and lots of other things, in Brainfuck
19:53:37 <AnMaster> first hit it seems
19:53:50 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe there is a newer version of the library?
19:54:09 <AnMaster> "This software is no longer being maintained."
19:54:11 <AnMaster> oh well
19:54:13 <AnMaster> probably not
19:54:22 <asiekierka> It was last updated april 13 2005
19:54:22 <asiekierka> and is no longer maintained
19:54:22 <asiekierka> ckpt runs on Linux 2.4 and 2.6 with (or without) the NPTL thread system (but it does not checkpoint programs that use threads).
19:54:27 <asiekierka> there are notes for users of Debian woody and related version
19:54:35 <asiekierka> and users of systems with exec-shield such as Fedora Core 2
19:54:52 <asiekierka> ckpt currently does not work out of the box on systems that
19:54:52 <asiekierka> have exec-shield installed.
19:54:55 <ais523> Debian /woody/?
19:54:58 <ais523> that was years ago...
19:54:59 <asiekierka> # echo 0 > /proc/sys/kernel/exec-shield-randomize
19:55:01 <AnMaster> ais523, yes...
19:55:05 <asiekierka> that was the exec-shield workaround
19:55:11 <AnMaster> so was fedora core 2
19:55:20 <asiekierka> as root, you execute that
19:55:23 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you know we can read too
19:55:25 <AnMaster> ....
19:55:33 <asiekierka> i just felt like it
19:55:44 <AnMaster> stop the pointless spam
19:55:59 <asiekierka> okay
19:57:52 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:58:37 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't think you will have much luck with ego bot
19:58:52 <tusho> why not AnMaster
19:58:56 <tusho> I just need to find out what to define JB_SP to
19:59:08 <AnMaster> tusho, see what I pasted above then
19:59:21 <AnMaster> on 32-bit probably the rsp register
19:59:21 <tusho> that's for user mode linux
19:59:25 <AnMaster> tusho, true....
19:59:51 <asiekierka> ....but....
20:00:47 -!- comex has joined.
20:02:08 <LinuS> hello
20:02:14 <AnMaster> hi
20:02:30 <LinuS> how is you work going?
20:02:30 <asiekierka> hi
20:02:39 <LinuS> i'm not translating my language description into english
20:02:44 <LinuS> then i'll let you see
20:03:22 <ais523> LinuS: ?
20:03:34 <LinuS> ais523: i've developed an esoteric language
20:03:45 <LinuS> but description is in italian at the moment :)
20:03:49 <ais523> ah
20:03:59 <ais523> well if you link it I'll see how well babelfish does on it
20:04:31 <LinuS> one moment
20:04:38 <LinuS> i'm glad you're interested :)
20:04:47 <tusho> ais523: it executes via irc servers
20:04:51 <tusho> it uses ban flags as variables
20:05:03 <ais523> tusho: what, IRP?
20:05:07 <LinuS> nay
20:05:08 <LinuS> mine
20:05:15 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/rgoM3S98.html
20:05:15 <ais523> arguably it uses people's mental state as variables
20:05:58 -!- Hiato has joined.
20:06:43 <LinuS> the points of the language are not storing variables in his own memory but only use IRC resources and all the commands should be valid for the IRC protocol (a client sending them to a server)
20:07:03 <ais523> looks interesting, it translated pretty well
20:07:08 <LinuS> that is, when the program is run the interpreter will "do" them into the selected irc server aswell
20:09:33 <psygnisfive> aww tusho
20:09:39 <psygnisfive> ofcourse i like it when you're talking
20:09:41 <psygnisfive> ::pet::
20:09:49 <psygnisfive> i just prefer it when your mouth is doing other things
20:09:57 <tusho> oh shut up psygnisfive
20:10:15 <psygnisfive> OH THE IRONY
20:13:21 <AnMaster> hahaha
20:13:40 <dogface_> Here's an esoteric programming language: all statements are things such as "5. Statement 3 takes precedence over statement 8.", and the result of the program is a description of what takes precedence over what.
20:13:55 <tusho> dogface_: get rid of my normish account, please
20:14:15 <AnMaster> LinuS, it wouldn't be TC
20:14:23 <AnMaster> as number of bans are limited on all ircds
20:14:47 <psygnisfive> dogface: i dont think that could computer anything
20:15:51 <LinuS> AnMaster oh i see
20:16:09 <AnMaster> LinuS, unless you have some other form of *infinite* storage
20:16:12 <dogface_> tusho: did you somehow get one?
20:16:19 <LinuS> but isn't memory limited anyway on a pc?
20:16:21 <tusho> dogface_: I was the second user...
20:16:33 <dogface_> As far as I can tell, you don't have a user on Normish.
20:16:35 <AnMaster> LinuS, sure it is, but no implementation is TC
20:16:44 <AnMaster> but you would limit yourself more than that
20:16:51 <LinuS> oh i see
20:16:56 <dogface_> Oh, a proposal to remove you more is in the works.
20:17:07 <AnMaster> unless you make a special ircd with unlimited bans of course
20:17:28 <LinuS> that's not what i want to do, it'll work on every RFC-compliant ircds
20:17:40 <AnMaster> LinuS, anyway it wouldn't be TC even in theory I think
20:17:55 <AnMaster> well no luck then
20:18:00 <ais523> LinuS: how do you do loops?
20:18:01 <AnMaster> you need some other form of storage as well
20:18:10 <LinuS> ais523 the WHILE block
20:18:16 <LinuS> uses topic as condition
20:18:18 <asiekierka> How's egobot
20:18:35 <LinuS> While block: TOPIC (condition) { } (there is no IF block because you can use the While one)
20:18:39 <AnMaster> tusho, how is egobot coming along?
20:18:49 <LinuS> like in the power example
20:18:52 <tusho> AnMaster: Not until I find out what to define JB_SP to.
20:19:10 <AnMaster> tusho, try the same as for um, it may work
20:19:25 <ais523> tusho: I suggest whatever the stack pointer is called in the compiler you're using
20:19:26 <AnMaster> tusho, if it doesn't *shrug*
20:19:36 <ais523> so __esp on 32-bit
20:19:38 <tusho> ais523: k
20:19:50 <LinuS> have you got any suggestions, clues?
20:19:55 <tusho> mem.c:294: error: '__esp' undeclared (first use in this function)
20:20:01 <AnMaster> um
20:20:15 <AnMaster> that seems strange
20:20:16 <AnMaster> oh well
20:20:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: two things, firstly what do you see as the difference between events and breakpoints, secondly I think there should be events "standard/file IO happened"
20:20:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, good point about the second
20:20:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and events doesn't stop interpreter do they?
20:21:04 <AnMaster> while a break point does break
20:21:05 <psygnisfive> lmfao
20:21:06 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
20:21:10 <psygnisfive> theres an article in usatoday
20:21:12 <AnMaster> an even just reports
20:21:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the second isn't that important for the standard since you can just trace ,.&~ but for fingerprints it matters
20:21:15 <psygnisfive> about how kids today are getting high
20:21:17 <psygnisfive> and addicted
20:21:22 <psygnisfive> using DIGITAL DRUGS
20:21:24 <psygnisfive> like binaural music
20:21:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah
20:21:32 <psygnisfive> ZOMG THE BINAURALS
20:21:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: okay, so how do you break on an event
20:21:51 <ais523> register int __esp asm("esp");
20:21:54 <ais523> you need to declare it first
20:22:02 <ais523> that's gcc-specific syntax for that, it seems
20:22:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, good pont
20:22:08 <AnMaster> point*
20:22:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: BRK in 5.7.2 (btw typo, says BRKGEN at one point) has type 5: "break from change notification"
20:22:24 <tusho> ais523: I could do register int JB_SP asm("esp")
20:22:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: which refers to an event
20:22:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah yes that is it
20:22:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, renamed thing
20:22:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think it should say "break from event"
20:22:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: (since not all events are necessarily change notifications)
20:22:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I renamed it before
20:22:58 <AnMaster> that is the issue
20:23:04 <AnMaster> events got expanded
20:23:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and anyway, how does one request to stop at event FOO for instance
20:23:30 <AnMaster> indeed it needs to be expanded, as there was only one event before
20:23:34 <tusho> AnMaster: it needs libdl
20:23:38 <dogface_> tusho: can you log out so we can delete you?
20:23:38 <tusho> how can I get a 32-bit libdl?
20:23:44 <tusho> dogface_: I am not logged in.
20:23:45 <AnMaster> tusho, should be one in /lib32
20:23:51 <dogface_> tusho: don't log in again, then.
20:23:52 <ais523> tusho: yes you are, w proves it
20:24:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm looking now
20:24:41 <tusho> now it wants libgcc
20:24:42 <tusho> :|
20:24:45 <AnMaster> 00.00.0000 action An integer describing what should happen on the change being triggered:
20:24:46 <AnMaster> • 0 indicates a change notification.
20:24:46 <AnMaster> • 1 indicates a breakpoint.
20:24:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there seem to be that
20:24:53 <AnMaster> and such
20:24:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: where's that
20:24:59 <tusho> how can I get a 32-bit libgcc
20:25:01 <AnMaster> 2.8.3
20:25:04 <AnMaster> err
20:25:06 <AnMaster> 5.8.3
20:25:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
20:25:14 <tusho> hmm
20:25:18 <tusho> I have libgcc_s.so.1
20:25:30 <asiekierka> so how's egobot now
20:25:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, every such type got a break point action it seems
20:25:44 <tusho> asiekierka: shush
20:25:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hmm, okay
20:26:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: maybe it should be a boolean and not integer, true if should break false if not (still 1 and 0 as now)
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20:26:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and maybe the CHG* should all start with EV as well as the others
20:27:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes it already does?
20:27:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: only the title
20:27:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oops
20:27:35 <AnMaster> typo then
20:27:45 <AnMaster> fixed locally
20:27:59 <LinuS> i've translated the language description in english, if someone's interested
20:28:06 <asiekierka> i am!
20:28:08 <AnMaster> LinuS, sure
20:28:21 <AnMaster> tusho, libgcc should be in /lib32 too
20:28:32 <tusho> libgcc_s.so.1 is AnMaster
20:28:36 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway gcc normally links it automatically
20:28:55 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/7hgQVs52.html
20:28:57 <tusho> it just says skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.2.3/libgcc.a when searching for -lgcc twice
20:28:59 <tusho> then gives up
20:29:05 <tusho> for
20:29:06 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/32/libgcc.a
20:29:07 <tusho> gcc -Xlinker --script=restart.script -o restart restart.o mem.o util.o uri.o remote.o sockaddr.o wrapsafe.o elfrestart.o -ldl -L/usr/lib32
20:29:09 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/libgcc.a
20:29:14 <AnMaster> I got those here
20:29:24 <AnMaster> tusho, I guess something like that?
20:29:30 <AnMaster> the 32 one probably
20:29:34 <AnMaster> tusho, tried locate first?
20:29:36 <tusho> i do not have a 32 bit libgcc.a AnMaster!!!
20:29:39 <AnMaster> it helped me find it
20:29:46 <AnMaster> tusho, I do in said location
20:29:50 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/32/libgcc.a
20:29:50 <tusho> and I do not
20:29:58 <AnMaster> tusho, it may be somewhere else on your system
20:30:01 <AnMaster> because you must have it
20:30:10 <AnMaster> it may be in a totally different place
20:30:11 <tusho> ah tehre it is
20:30:21 <AnMaster> /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.1/libgcc.a
20:30:26 <AnMaster> on my 32-bit arch
20:30:33 <tusho> gcc -Xlinker --script=restart.script -o restart restart.o mem.o util.o uri.o remote.o sockaddr.o wrapsafe.o elfrestart.o -ldl -L/usr/lib32 -L/usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.2.3/32/lib
20:30:34 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:30:34 <tusho> still fails
20:30:39 <AnMaster> tusho, see!
20:30:47 <AnMaster> it was just a case of changing compiler version
20:31:19 <AnMaster> tusho, you are missing a -m32
20:31:21 <AnMaster> on that line
20:31:23 <LinuS> let me also know if you notice some bad english
20:31:24 <AnMaster> not very odd then
20:31:26 <LinuS> ^^
20:31:42 <AnMaster> tusho, you need -m32 for *all* calls to gcc
20:31:45 <tusho> yes yes
20:32:05 * AnMaster reads LinuS paste
20:32:32 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
20:32:42 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:32:51 <AnMaster> *Quits returning the 1 value (ok) to the system
20:32:52 <AnMaster> QUIT 1
20:32:53 <AnMaster> err
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20:33:01 <AnMaster> that doesn't match *nix
20:33:20 <LinuS> i believe this one will unmatch more
20:33:20 <LinuS> QUIT "Now this is a nice language!"
20:33:22 <AnMaster> LinuS, on Linux and also all other systems except VMS that I know about 0 is normal exit and 1 is bad
20:33:30 <LinuS> oh, indeed
20:33:33 <AnMaster> if you mean exit code of program
20:33:41 <LinuS> yes, i forgot them
20:33:42 <Deewiant> oh, VMS has it flipped?
20:33:49 <AnMaster> LinuS, I think VMS however uses 1 for OK and 0 for bad
20:33:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think so
20:33:55 <AnMaster> at least I read that I think
20:34:02 <AnMaster> may have been some other platform
20:34:04 <LinuS> i wanted to write 0, it was a "typo"
20:34:12 <LinuS> what about returning a string to the system?
20:34:15 <LinuS> can i do it?
20:34:26 <AnMaster> LinuS, well depends on what you want
20:34:29 <AnMaster> not as a exit code
20:34:39 <AnMaster> you could print it out at the end I guess
20:34:45 <AnMaster> in the interpreter
20:34:53 <AnMaster> or you could send a quit message on irc
20:35:22 <LinuS> yeah i'll threat the quit message as a comment, but i'll still send it to IRC
20:35:23 <AnMaster> $ true; echo $?; false; echo $?
20:35:23 <AnMaster> 0
20:35:23 <AnMaster> 1
20:35:38 <ais523> AnMaster: was that on VMS?
20:35:44 <AnMaster> ais523, nop
20:35:46 <AnMaster> it was on linux
20:35:49 <ais523> and actually VMS uses odd for success, even for failed
20:35:49 <AnMaster> I don't have any vms
20:35:50 <AnMaster> ...
20:36:00 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah I said it was reversed
20:36:14 <ais523> AnMaster: well it has more than one success code
20:36:18 <AnMaster> ok
20:36:28 <ais523> and the C stdlib does weird stuff to translate exit codes
20:36:48 <AnMaster> ais523, there is some #defines for "bad" and "good" exits iirc
20:36:57 <ais523> EXIT_SUCCESS and EXIT_FAILURE
20:37:00 <ais523> EXIT_SUCCESS is always 0
20:37:05 <ais523> EXIT_FAILURE can vary though
20:37:08 <AnMaster> (oh btw, I should have known you knew about weird systems!)
20:37:16 <AnMaster> ais523, aren't they flipped on VMS then?
20:37:16 <ais523> on VMS EXIT_SUCCESS is 0 and EXIT_FAILURE is some random large even number, I think
20:37:29 <ais523> and exit() and return from main swap 0 and some random large odd number
20:37:34 -!- dogface has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:37:38 <AnMaster> ok weird
20:37:39 <ais523> and all other numbers are preserved unchanged
20:37:44 <ais523> the C standard allows that behaviour
20:38:04 <ais523> and that's why you can use 0 for successful exit but on non-posix should use EXIT_FAILURE for failed exit
20:38:12 <ais523> (on posix you can use any non-zero for failed)
20:38:28 <AnMaster> ais523, well... why is there EXIT_SUCCESS at all then?
20:38:33 <ais523> symmetry I think
20:38:36 <LinuS> err
20:38:38 <AnMaster> I see
20:38:40 <LinuS> now that i'm thinking
20:38:50 <LinuS> my language is interpreted
20:38:57 <AnMaster> LinuS, yes of course
20:39:00 <LinuS> so well, i can't actually return anything to the system
20:39:03 <LinuS> just to the interpreter
20:39:17 <AnMaster> LinuS, which can then return it to the system if it wants
20:39:26 <AnMaster> q in befunge work like that
20:39:49 <LinuS> oh well, i'll think i'll just display the quit messagges on the interpreter console
20:39:52 <LinuS> :)
20:39:56 <fizzie> Actually EXIT_SUCCESS need not be 0; the standard says that you can signal a successful termination using either zero or EXIT_SUCCESS; so 0 always works, but EXIT_SUCCESS might be something else.
20:40:02 <LinuS> messages*
20:40:26 <ais523> fizzie: ah yes, that's it, I don't think there were any implementations that had it non-zero though
20:40:28 <AnMaster> ah well our other standard expert (fizzie)
20:41:07 <fizzie> I can't really think of any very sensible reasons to #define it non-zero, since they must anyway handle the 0 case.
20:41:15 <AnMaster> anyway if someone ever need to ask about a weird system, just ask ais523, if it was made after 72, there is a good chance he know about it
20:41:16 <ais523> yes
20:41:17 <AnMaster> ;P
20:41:27 <ais523> even before, on occasion
20:41:37 <ais523> after all Baudot was invented in the 1800s
20:41:38 <AnMaster> really?
20:41:42 <AnMaster> ah true
20:41:47 <AnMaster> ais523, and roman numerals!
20:41:55 <ais523> I only know Baudot from INTERCAL, though
20:42:15 <ais523> unlike most langs which are being updated to progressively newer technologies, INTERCAL is updated to progressively older technologies
20:42:27 <AnMaster> hahah
20:42:40 <LinuS> well, have you got other clues or suggestions?
20:43:11 <LinuS> seems like this is the only place in which i can talk about this, other people tend not to understand me or tells me to stop wasting my time :p
20:43:23 <dogface_> Does INTERCAL have any instructions for operating a Babbage analytical engine?
20:43:34 <AnMaster> LinuS, not really my type of language
20:43:57 <LinuS> why? is it too "simple"?
20:44:16 <ais523> dogface_: not yet, but patches are welcome
20:48:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, nah
20:48:17 <AnMaster> err
20:48:19 <AnMaster> LinuS, ^
20:48:22 <AnMaster> mistab
20:48:23 <AnMaster> sorry
20:48:33 <LinuS> gh
20:48:41 <AnMaster> LinuS, I'm more into languages like befunge and such
20:49:05 <LinuS> i see :)
20:49:30 <tusho> egobot's compilin'
20:49:32 <tusho> LinuS: I like it
20:49:33 <tusho> it's creative
20:49:35 <tusho> your first?
20:49:35 <ais523> tusho: wow
20:49:43 <LinuS> yes tusho
20:49:46 <tusho> ais523: i had to fuck about with ckpt's makefile a lot
20:49:49 <tusho> hopefully it works
20:49:59 <ais523> LinuS: it reminds me of my study into incidental programmability
20:50:00 <tusho> guh
20:50:03 <tusho> I installed jikes-classpath
20:50:08 <tusho> but it still can't do it
20:50:09 <ais523> like when I wrote noughts-and-crosses in Paint
20:50:11 <tusho> *** Semantic Error: You need to modify your classpath, sourcepath, bootclasspath, and/or extdirs setup. Jikes could not find package "java.lang" in:
20:50:11 <tusho>                 .
20:50:20 <tusho> aha
20:50:21 <ais523> Java now?
20:50:26 <ais523> I thought it was written in C
20:50:30 <tusho> ais523: remember, egobot uses third-party interps
20:50:34 <tusho> so it compiles them all
20:50:35 <ais523> ah yes
20:50:37 <tusho> and it's C++
20:50:38 <LinuS> uhm ais523, you mean using piet?
20:50:43 <tusho> C with Classes, in this case
20:50:46 <ais523> LinuS: no
20:50:46 <tusho> C with Classes badly, really
20:50:49 <ais523> using the floodfill tool
20:50:49 <LinuS> or how did you write that on paint?
20:51:06 <tusho> cd lazyk ; g++ -O2 -g  lazy.cpp -o lazyk
20:51:06 <tusho> lazy.cpp:66: error: 'operator new' takes type 'size_t' ('long unsigned int') as first parameter
20:51:08 <tusho> lol wut
20:51:12 <ais523> I rigged it up so that you could click with floodfill on various places
20:51:15 <tusho>         static void* operator new(unsigned) {
20:51:18 <tusho> ah I see
20:51:20 * tusho changes
20:51:21 <LinuS> ooh i see :)
20:51:23 <LinuS> got it now
20:51:26 <ais523> and it would mark your and its rules onto the board
20:51:31 <ais523> s/rules/moves/
20:51:33 <ais523> it never lost either
20:51:37 <ais523> but it always went first
20:51:38 <tusho> ais523: i want that
20:51:42 <tusho> ghc -O --make Main -o rhotor-hi
20:51:42 <tusho> ./build.sh: 4: ghc: not found
20:51:46 <tusho> egobot depends on ghc ahahahaha
20:51:48 <ais523> tusho: I've sent it to you before
20:51:53 <LinuS> lol that's really kewl
20:52:09 <ais523> I also did noughts-and-crosses in the Windows 3.1 help system
20:52:15 <ais523> by using lots and lots of hyperlinks
20:52:21 <ais523> and automatically generating all the possible grids
20:52:34 <LinuS> i don't know it, is it different from html pages?
20:52:36 <ais523> winhelp was great, it had variables and everything
20:52:42 <ais523> and it was a bit different
20:52:46 <tusho> oh jesus christ
20:52:50 <tusho> GreaseMonkey has made a third account
20:53:06 <ais523> it took Word documents as input
20:53:08 <tusho> can't he remember a goddamn password
20:53:13 <ais523> and you specified commands using foornotes
20:53:18 <tusho> however [[If you find some archaic license on any of these languages, disregard it. I don't care what you do with it anymore. I'd like to see it simply used as it should be. I am cleaning up all the licence crap now. --Ben Russell 05:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC) ]]
20:53:18 <ais523> it was quite esoteric, really
20:53:22 <tusho> so no more "Oerjan fucked with it" I guess
20:53:43 <ais523> it's the only programming lang I've ever come across which used a rich-text source
20:54:03 <ais523> section breaks to separate pages, and footnotes for things like onload scripts
20:54:09 <ais523> you did links using underlines and hidden text
20:54:12 <tusho> !!! EGOBOT JUST COMPILED !!!
20:54:14 <tusho> wholly shit
20:55:05 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:55:38 <tusho> hmm
20:55:39 -!- MikeRiley has quit ("Leaving").
20:55:43 <tusho> now to figure out the arcane netcat construction it uses
20:56:09 <ais523> netcat? What lang is EgoBot written in anyway (the core, not the third-party interps)?
20:56:36 -!- IdBot has joined.
20:56:36 <dogface_> A C-oid, isn't it?
20:56:39 <tusho> hi IdBot
20:56:39 <dogface_> !help
20:56:40 <tusho> !help
20:56:43 <tusho> mmf
20:57:05 -!- IdBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:57:27 -!- IdBot has joined.
20:57:29 <tusho> !help
20:57:33 <tusho> :|
20:57:36 <LinuS> lol
20:57:39 <tusho> !bf +.
20:57:42 <ais523> tusho: is the command prefix ! by default?
20:57:42 <dogface_> !bf8 +[+.]
20:57:42 <tusho> !say hi
20:57:47 <tusho> ais523: it isn't configurable
20:57:48 <tusho> so yes :P
20:57:53 -!- IdBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:58:00 <LinuS> what should the bot do?
20:58:02 <dogface_> How did you get it to be IdBot?
20:58:02 <ais523> at least it's joining
20:58:06 <ais523> LinuS: interpret esolangs
20:58:10 <tusho> :tusho!n=ehird@91.105.83.185 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help
20:58:12 <ais523> EgoBot used to be a major feature of this channel
20:58:13 <tusho> it's alive, then
20:58:26 <ais523> I remember when I got 3 of the bots here to form an infinite loop
20:58:28 <LinuS> interpret esolangs? how many? :O
20:58:30 <ais523> of sending commands to each other
20:58:33 <dogface_> Twentyabouts.
20:58:33 <ais523> LinuS: 20 or so
20:58:33 <tusho> LinuS: like 20
20:58:37 <tusho> hahahaha
20:58:37 * dogface_ wins
20:58:44 <tusho> no
20:58:44 <tusho> I did
20:58:45 <tusho> :P
20:58:47 <LinuS> oh my god, wonderful
20:58:48 <ais523> dogface_: I won at my end
20:58:50 <LinuS> :P
20:58:55 <dogface_> ais523 beat tusho.
20:58:55 <tusho> ais523 beat dogface_ though
20:58:56 * LinuS 's autojoining the channel
20:58:58 <ais523> we'll just have to check the logs, I suppose
20:59:06 <ais523> at least both of you think I beat the other
20:59:15 <ais523> dogface_ beat tusho over here
20:59:19 <dogface_> Yay. :-P
20:59:43 <tusho> Ah.
20:59:45 <tusho> EgoBot segfaults.
20:59:46 <oklopol> abotu 20
20:59:48 <oklopol> *about
20:59:50 <tusho> I bet it's that pesky ckpt, ais523
20:59:59 <dogface_> oklopol: fourth place isn't bad.
21:00:05 <ais523> oklopol: heh
21:00:11 <tusho> ah of course
21:00:14 <ais523> optbot: meet IdBot
21:00:15 <optbot> ais523: tusho, there are 12-year-olds in here.
21:00:15 <tusho> I need to compile them all as 32 bit don't I
21:00:21 <ais523> optbot: stop that!
21:00:21 <optbot> ais523: It's BIZARRO ESOTERIC
21:00:26 <tusho> since ckpt is
21:00:27 <tusho> :\
21:00:35 <oklopol> tusho: please comment on my joke so i can repeat it!
21:00:40 <tusho> oklopol: no, I'm busy
21:00:42 <ais523> * kicks optbot (trolling)
21:00:42 <optbot> ais523: Is this transferrable? If I get aard to worship me, will your aard worships be transferred to me too?
21:00:55 <tusho> wow
21:00:58 <tusho> ais523: that's from 2002
21:01:00 <tusho> i remember
21:01:03 <tusho> reading fizzie's logs
21:01:11 <ais523> what were they talking about in 2002?
21:01:13 <ais523> apart from that?
21:01:14 <tusho> aard of course refers to H. Founder and FALSE creator
21:01:16 <tusho> Aardappel
21:01:21 <tusho> ais523: how much the channel was dead.
21:01:28 <ais523> well it isn't dead nowadays
21:01:32 <tusho> ais523: and Life In Genearl
21:01:34 <ais523> it's been going strong for several years now
21:01:35 <tusho> so no, not just esolangs
21:01:37 <tusho> *General
21:01:37 <dogface_> Does "H." mean he's a player of Agora?
21:01:42 <tusho> dogface_: No, it means he's Honorable.
21:03:07 <dogface_> Okay, what would the little tune in this comic sound like: http://www.theclassm.com/d/19990826.html
21:04:30 <oklopol> Didn't Load
21:04:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:08:03 <tusho> Great.
21:08:06 <tusho> Egobot is segfaulting.
21:08:09 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: ping
21:08:19 <ais523> tusho: as it probably would be if you were messing around with the stack, like it sounds like it does
21:08:27 <tusho> ais523: I got rid of ckpt,.
21:10:44 <bsmntbombdood> wut
21:12:03 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: want bsmnt_bot.
21:12:05 <tusho> egobot is teh fux
21:16:27 <dogface_> Hmm.
21:18:17 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: plzz0r
21:18:18 <tusho> :P
21:20:15 <dogface_> bsmnt_bot-like thing is coming.
21:21:07 <tusho> dogface_: What?
21:21:10 <tusho> I asked for bsmnt_bot.
21:21:12 <tusho> From bsmntbombdood.
21:21:19 * dogface_ relearns regexes
21:21:33 <tusho> dogface_: bsmnt_bot executed arbitary python and that's how we added esolangs.
21:21:36 <tusho> Are you going to go and sandbox it?
21:21:45 <tusho> Have fun with that. I think asking bsmntbombdood for it will be quicker.
21:21:47 <tusho> He replied earlier.
21:21:59 <ais523> tusho: e chrooted it, I think
21:22:32 <tusho> ais523: Yes. ihope seems to be reimplementing bsmnt_bot on the spot.
21:22:42 <tusho> Either I'll have it from bsmntbombdood way before he's done,
21:22:52 <tusho> or it'll be incredibly insecure and I can wipe ihope's system with one line on IRC,
21:22:56 <tusho> or it won't be extensible
21:22:57 <dogface_> The latter.
21:23:06 <dogface_> And the lattest.
21:23:08 <tusho> (and thus the list of esolangs will be restricted)
21:23:17 <tusho> (whereas it was one of the best things about bsmnt_bot)
21:23:18 <ais523> dogface_: seriously, don't put something there that allows your computer to be wiped with one line of IRC
21:23:21 <tusho> dogface_: Then it's not "bsmnt_bot".
21:23:23 <ais523> or someone here will probably do it
21:23:23 <dogface_> I won't.
21:23:24 <tusho> It's "a random IRC bot".
21:23:26 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:23:30 <dogface_> Well, it will be extensible, I guess.
21:23:38 <tusho> dogface_: With Python code to add a handler?
21:23:41 <tusho> Hope you secure that well.
21:23:50 <ais523> what would be amusing would be if you hacked into tusho's computer and got it to run there, then tusho wiped eir own computer with one line of IRC
21:23:55 <dogface_> :-)
21:23:57 <ais523> but I doubt that will ahppen
21:24:04 -!- Judofyr has joined.
21:24:06 <oklopol> hacking is impossible.
21:24:06 <dogface_> Actually, that's exactly what I'm planning.
21:24:08 <tusho> ais523: Like I run things as high-privileged users.
21:24:16 <oklopol> i don't believe in it
21:25:28 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: ping
21:27:50 <dogface_> My bot wouldn't be nearly as good as bsmnt_bot.
21:28:04 <dogface_> I don't suppose anyone other than me has a copy of it handy.
21:28:20 <tusho> You have bsmnt_bot?
21:28:22 <tusho> Well, then give me it!
21:28:32 <tusho> I -have- been trying to get it from bsmntbombdood for hours...
21:29:35 <dogface_> Okay.
21:29:48 <dogface_> Just want about three... no, five moments.
21:30:29 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: let me butt your sex
21:30:36 <oklopol> this'll sure wake him up.
21:33:31 <oklopol> dogface_: the comic opened!
21:33:45 <oklopol> not that i have any idea what you asked about it
21:33:48 <bsmntbombdood> ihope? reimplimenting bsmnt_bot?!?!
21:33:51 <bsmntbombdood> impossible!
21:33:56 <bsmntbombdood> there can be no replacement
21:34:05 <bsmntbombdood> that bot is a marvel of engineering
21:34:21 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: gimme
21:34:22 <tusho> it :(
21:34:30 <tusho> we need it!
21:34:35 <tusho> it's just one file of python, sheesh
21:35:12 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: is it a trade secret or something
21:35:16 <tusho> I mean I downloaded it on the other box
21:35:18 <tusho> I COULD go and get it
21:35:19 <bsmntbombdood> <tusho> it's just one file of python, sheesh
21:35:21 <oklopol> see? i woke him up
21:35:21 <bsmntbombdood> lololol
21:35:21 <tusho> but that would be annoying
21:35:30 <bsmntbombdood> the setup is actually really complicated
21:35:36 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: it's a chroot running one file of python.
21:35:41 <dogface_> oklopol: I asked what that tune would sound like?
21:35:43 <tusho> I know, blahbot` ran on it.
21:36:05 <oklopol> dogface_: 0.330.3.7.523.0. assuming the fifth note is 1/4 in length
21:36:05 <bsmntbombdood> i don't have it
21:36:10 <oklopol> looks like 1/2, but that makes less sense.
21:36:28 <dogface_> tusho: wait one moment and ask again.
21:36:34 <tusho> dogface_: (one moment) bsmnt_bot please.
21:37:01 <dogface_> tusho: did you wait one moment?
21:37:04 -!- tusho has left (?).
21:37:07 -!- tusho has joined.
21:37:08 <tusho> yes
21:37:21 <dogface_> Okay.
21:38:10 <dogface_> File with bsmnt is not existed. Sorry.
21:38:26 <oklopol> basically we have the rhythm theme |.|||.|., repeated two times, first time going up, then back down, jumps around in thirds, first and second third from 0 to 3, then we quickly play 7, and come back down with thirds again
21:38:35 <ais523> dogface_: what generates that sort of error?
21:38:42 <dogface_> ais523: me.
21:38:45 <tusho> ais523: ihope-speecherizer.
21:38:59 <ais523> it sounds like the sort of thing INTERCAL would come up with if it did file I/O
21:39:00 <oklopol> 0 .|||.|. 7 .|||.|.
21:39:11 <tusho> if i turned off nicks on irc, I could still distinguish oklopol, ais523, psygnisfive and ihope.
21:39:22 <dogface_> How do you turn off nicks on irc?
21:39:23 <ais523> as a change from the normal snarky message there's at least one with broken English instead
21:39:23 <oklopol> well i'm trivial
21:39:29 <oklopol> as is dogface_
21:39:31 <tusho> dogface_: Remove them from my template.
21:39:32 <psygnisfive> oklopol! :D
21:39:34 <oklopol> he's even easier
21:39:39 <oklopol> psygnisfive :DDDDDD
21:39:44 <psygnisfive> ::pounce::
21:39:46 <psygnisfive> <3you
21:39:49 <tusho> psygnisfive is also trivial as we can see
21:39:53 <ais523> tusho: there are others who are easily distinguishable too
21:39:56 <psygnisfive> how was boyscouting?
21:39:57 <tusho> and I've talked to ais523 that i can easily detect him
21:39:57 <dogface_> I think I have a distinctive habit of using both capital letters and periods.
21:40:06 <psygnisfive> where are my pictures of you in boyscout short shorts?
21:40:09 <oklopol> psygnisfive: that was ages ago, but it was okay
21:40:10 <tusho> I wouldn't be able to distinguish fizzie and lament
21:40:13 <tusho> most of the time
21:40:14 <oklopol> except for this one retarded kid
21:40:19 <tusho> I could distinguish AnMaster
21:40:22 <tusho> probably not Deewiant
21:40:29 <ais523> dogface_: I do sometimes, but normally I adhere to the IRC custom of no full stop at the end of a line nor capital letter at the start of a line.
21:40:45 <ais523> sometimes I write two sentences on a line. When I do it looks like this, which is strange
21:40:51 <AnMaster> tusho, ?
21:41:02 <tusho> AnMaster: talking about who we could distinguish on IRC if we didn't display nicknames
21:41:05 <ais523> AnMaster: we were discussing how to tell who said what when nicks were turned off
21:41:10 <tusho> ais523: I type like this. sometimes like this
21:41:13 <tusho> Occasionally, even like this.
21:41:16 <AnMaster> ais523, ah
21:41:20 <ais523> tusho: could you recognise optbot, do you think?
21:41:21 <optbot> ais523: although the numbers are sometimes different
21:41:31 <tusho> sometimes even like this, and i sometimes even say I although generally i go back to I sometime in the sentence if i do that
21:41:46 <tusho> if im very lazy ill abstain from all punctuation whatsoever
21:41:58 <ais523> nah, I normally leave apostrophes in except for typos
21:42:00 <AnMaster> posix_fadvise_fast()
21:42:01 <AnMaster> ;P
21:42:05 <ais523> and I use commas and semicolons more than other people
21:42:07 <AnMaster> easy to pick me out ;P!
21:42:08 <tusho> most importantly, though, my typing style adapts to those who are around me.
21:42:10 <oklopol> i like to write long obscure messages
21:42:14 <tusho> if someone types a certain way, I do too after a while
21:42:17 <tusho> until I'm comfortable with them
21:42:19 <AnMaster> tusho, ^
21:42:21 <tusho> when I pick up my own style of the momen
21:42:24 <ais523> Sgeo would be easy too, you look for who types about nomic and PSOX
21:42:24 <oklopol> ^ not an example of which, sadly
21:42:37 <AnMaster> tusho, posix_fadvise_fast()!
21:42:38 <AnMaster> ;P
21:42:41 <tusho> oklopol has a habit of being crazily concise
21:42:50 <psygnisfive> and cryptic
21:42:51 <tusho> and packing loads of info along with loads of punctuation diagrams into one message
21:43:02 <ais523> siltweaaabidnbncui
21:43:02 <tusho> that while incredibly comprehensive are hard to read
21:43:14 <tusho> ais523: asaufabcaufonasuchg
21:43:15 <AnMaster> tusho, I could pick out MikeReily anywhere
21:43:22 <dogface_> I want to be incredibly consise.
21:43:22 <tusho> AnMaster: i couldn't,,,,ehehehehhee...
21:43:29 <AnMaster> tusho, hahah! :P
21:43:29 <lament> pretty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ecliptic_path.jpg
21:43:37 <ais523> hi lament
21:43:44 <tusho> dogface_: so do I, I think it's an acquired skill
21:43:46 <ais523> and thanks for linking the image correctly
21:43:46 <tusho> oklopol is the only one who
21:43:51 <tusho> consistently manages to do it in here
21:43:54 <AnMaster> tusho, how would you pick me out?
21:43:58 <tusho> AnMaster: got
21:44:04 <AnMaster> tusho, well any other ways?
21:44:10 <dogface_> Is this incredibly concise?
21:44:12 <tusho> AnMaster: general awkward sentence structure :P
21:44:14 <tusho> dogface_: no
21:44:19 <dogface_> This?
21:44:20 <AnMaster> tusho, I got bad English?
21:44:21 <AnMaster> that bad?
21:44:27 <AnMaster> :(
21:44:27 <ais523> AnMaster: not exactly, it's just nonidiomatic
21:44:28 <tusho> no
21:44:30 <tusho> your english is very good
21:44:33 <AnMaster> thanks
21:44:35 <tusho> just non-idiomatic, like ais523 said :P
21:44:36 <AnMaster> apart from got/have
21:44:37 <ais523> you tend to use different constructions from native English people
21:44:38 <psygnisfive> anmaster where you from?
21:44:40 <lament> hi ais523
21:44:40 <AnMaster> ah
21:44:43 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, Sweden
21:44:46 <psygnisfive> ah.
21:44:49 <psygnisfive> right.
21:44:57 <psygnisfive> what got/have swap do you do?
21:44:58 <ais523> o
21:45:06 <oklopol> AnMaster: tusho, I got bad English? <<< intended to make a joke? :D
21:45:08 <tusho> psygnisfive: 'the standard got some issues'
21:45:12 <tusho> oklopol: i hope so :)
21:45:12 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, general issue of saying "got" instead of "have"
21:45:14 <psygnisfive> oh
21:45:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes it was so this time
21:45:21 <psygnisfive> actually that's almost ok
21:45:29 <psygnisfive> you just need an extra have in there.
21:45:35 <tusho> psygnisfive: has
21:45:36 <psygnisfive> "the standard has got some issues"
21:45:37 <tusho> has got some issues
21:45:37 <AnMaster> and I don't have why I say got instead
21:45:39 <AnMaster> err I mean got
21:45:40 <AnMaster> ;P
21:45:40 <tusho> even then it's still awkawrd
21:45:42 <psygnisfive> or "i have got bad english"
21:45:52 <psygnisfive> but mainly you'd contract it
21:45:53 <tusho> 'have got' is grating
21:45:57 <psygnisfive> "i've got"
21:46:03 <psygnisfive> or "the standard's got"
21:46:18 <oklopol> i've bad englishes
21:46:23 <oklopol> is how i'd say it
21:46:35 <ais523> I tend to typo a lot but I also tend to correct it before sending it to IRC
21:46:38 <ais523> unless the typo is particularly amusing
21:46:41 <tusho> no hablas espanol
21:46:43 <psygnisfive> infact, i dare say that saying "have" in such situations would sound quite awkward in american english
21:46:52 <tusho> ais523: navigating in single-line text is my enemy
21:46:59 <tusho> because while I hate using the keyboard to pinpoint an error a while back,
21:47:03 <ais523> tusho: I correct immediately after typing the typo
21:47:03 <tusho> i can't use the mouse for such a small thing
21:47:08 <oklopol> psygnisfive: tusho's point exactly
21:47:09 <tusho> ais523: I don't notice, often
21:47:16 <AnMaster> <tusho> ais523: navigating in single-line text is my enemy <-- eh?
21:47:16 <tusho> however, I often type 'm', backspace then 'o'
21:47:17 <ais523> tusho: get used to control-arrow if you want to do single-line navigation
21:47:21 <tusho> I start off the first two or so letters rwong
21:47:23 <psygnisfive> oklopol: actually the opposite of his point, which was that "Got" is awkward
21:47:25 <tusho> ais523: opt-arrow
21:47:26 <tusho> but even so
21:47:27 <tusho> it's tedious
21:47:30 <psygnisfive> whereas i mean to say "have" would be awkward
21:47:32 <ais523> tusho: ah, Mac
21:47:38 <psygnisfive> "the standard has some issues" <- weird
21:47:46 <tusho> psygnisfive: weird?
21:47:47 <psygnisfive> especially with adverbs
21:47:47 <tusho> hardly
21:47:48 <oklopol> psygnisfive: my point exactly!
21:47:50 <ais523> is control on a Mac like Super on Linux
21:47:50 <AnMaster> aha
21:47:53 <psygnisfive> "the standard still has some issues"
21:47:59 <tusho> ais523: no
21:47:59 <ais523> as in, hardly ever used except by a few dedicated programs?
21:47:59 <AnMaster> I prefer British English
21:48:03 <oklopol> i have a hard time following the ways of the world atm :D
21:48:04 <psygnisfive> "the standard's still got some issues"
21:48:06 <AnMaster> but I'm on too many IRC channels
21:48:08 <psygnisfive> better
21:48:15 <AnMaster> where American English is used
21:48:20 <oklopol> you're exceeding my reading speed.
21:48:20 <psygnisfive> but this is a difference between american english and british english
21:48:23 <AnMaster> I guess it influenced me
21:48:25 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm British but normally end up typing in a weird mix of British and American
21:48:41 <psygnisfive> british english uses "to have" more extensively than american english
21:48:48 <psygnisfive> "I'm sorry, I haven't a clue"
21:48:57 <psygnisfive> which is pretentious to american ears
21:48:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I also end up with a mix, I try to make a point of using ou instead of o in colour and such, but I often end up using z instead of s
21:49:06 <Mony> 'night
21:49:08 <psygnisfive> "I'm sorry, I haven't got a clue" is more appropriate
21:49:12 <ais523> I've ended up using both color and colour in the same sentence before
21:49:14 <ais523> and night mony
21:49:18 <Mony> thx :)
21:49:19 <psygnisfive> american english much prefers "have got" to "have"
21:49:20 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, blergh american!
21:49:20 <oklopol> i ain't a clue
21:49:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> and night mony <--??
21:49:39 <psygnisfive> in american english, it seems "have" is become just an indicator of perfective aspect
21:49:40 <ais523> <Mony> 'night
21:49:52 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I have a car or I got a car?
21:50:00 <AnMaster> I don't have or got a car btw
21:50:01 <ais523> I have a car is correct English
21:50:08 <ais523> but I don't have one either
21:50:08 <tusho> i never say color
21:50:10 <psygnisfive> actually thats more acceptable
21:50:18 <ais523> tusho: I've programmed in too many langs that spell it color
21:50:22 <psygnisfive> but the second would have to be "i've got a car"
21:50:26 <AnMaster> well I don't say colour or color, I say färg
21:50:27 <AnMaster> :P
21:50:28 <ais523> although refreshingly Allegro uses British English
21:50:34 <AnMaster> I *write* colour
21:50:35 <AnMaster> :P
21:50:48 <tusho> ais523: I bet gecko aliases colour->color
21:50:51 <tusho> because it must be pretty common
21:50:59 <ais523> quite possibly
21:51:08 <ais523> actually I think Allegro has #defines for American spellings
21:51:09 <tusho> i kind of dislike that though
21:51:11 <tusho> since it won't work in anything else
21:51:12 <ais523> but the british ones are used internally
21:51:15 <tusho> it's just promoting a habit that doesn't exist
21:51:17 <dogface_> American English prefers "have got" to plain old "have"?
21:51:19 <tusho> because before they implemented that
21:51:20 <tusho> nobody would use it
21:51:22 <AnMaster> reminds me of mysql ANALYSE vs. ANALYZE
21:51:22 <tusho> beacuse it wouldn't work
21:51:26 <dogface_> I thought that was British English that did that.
21:51:26 <psygnisfive> tusho: did you know that colour->color spelling changes were actually intentionally introduced by Webster with the intent of making a distinctly american dialect?
21:51:32 <tusho> psygnisfive: Yes.
21:51:34 <tusho> Fuck Webster.
21:51:48 <ais523> AnMaster: that was just awful, I haven't told them yet, I wonder if anyone else has noticed?
21:51:50 <oklopol> dogface_: i'd say they prefer "'ve got".
21:51:55 <psygnisfive> dogface_: all i know is, there seem to be many cases where "have" is unacceptable for possession
21:51:56 <AnMaster> ais523, tell them
21:52:05 <oklopol> "'ve" is a separate verb in american english, clearly
21:52:17 <psygnisfive> oklopol: maybe :)
21:52:25 <ais523> just like "was like" is a separate verb in modern English teenage slang, and one that sounds terrible
21:52:27 <AnMaster> who is Webster?
21:52:29 <psygnisfive> its either a verbal clitic, or something else
21:52:35 <psygnisfive> perfective clitic maybe
21:52:35 <ais523> AnMaster: made a famous dictionary
21:52:36 <psygnisfive> something
21:52:38 <AnMaster> ah
21:52:40 <lament> i know what program i want to write!
21:52:47 <tusho> ais523: when I was younger I despised teenage slang
21:52:47 <AnMaster> lament, oh?
21:52:52 <lament> a curses-based constellation map!
21:52:52 <tusho> somehow "dude" has creeped into my vocabulary
21:52:57 <ais523> tusho: do you still despise it?
21:53:01 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway how are my sentences non-ideomatic?
21:53:03 <tusho> ais523: yes
21:53:03 <dogface_> psygnisfive: can you give an example?
21:53:04 <ais523> and "dude" is outdated teenage slang
21:53:08 <AnMaster> err
21:53:10 <AnMaster> idiomatic
21:53:11 <psygnisfive> dogface_: example of?
21:53:13 <tusho> ais523: true, it should be homie
21:53:13 <tusho> :P
21:53:22 <AnMaster> lament, nice one
21:53:25 <tusho> i mostly use it as "dude..." though
21:53:25 <dogface_> psygnisfive: a case where "have" is unacceptable for possession.
21:53:28 <tusho> as in a "i cannot believe this"
21:53:37 <ais523> AnMaster: looking up, you have more of a tendency than other people to write noun phrases as a line by themselves
21:54:00 <ais523> <AnMaster> tusho, well any other ways?
21:54:06 <AnMaster> ais523, eh? You mean breaking the line in the middle on irc, that is because otherwise I can't keep up
21:54:09 <ais523> that's one example of non-idiomaticness
21:54:09 <dogface_> ais523 said "made a famous dictionary" without a subject to it.
21:54:10 <oklopol> dogface_: no one says "i have a car", you say "i's like a car and shit"
21:54:14 <psygnisfive> dogface_: i gave examples above. as i said, "the standard has some problems" sounds more akward than "the standard's got some problems"
21:54:22 <psygnisfive> and modifiers make it worse.
21:54:24 <ais523> AnMaster: I mean without the rest of the sentence
21:54:28 <AnMaster> ais523, <ais523> <AnMaster> tusho, well any other ways? <-- what would a native say?
21:54:32 <ais523> dogface_: that's a verb phrase
21:54:37 <tusho> AnMaster: "any other ways?" :P
21:54:38 <psygnisfive> tho its not completely awkward. but "got" sounds more natural to me
21:54:48 <ais523> "are there any other ways" or just "any other ways"
21:54:56 <AnMaster> tusho, you mean just drop the "well"?
21:54:56 <ais523> "well" without a comma at the start of a sentence is strange
21:54:59 <dogface_> psygnisfive: I guess I have little preferece.
21:55:00 <tusho> AnMaster: yes
21:55:03 <AnMaster> ais523, and that , was a typo
21:55:07 <ais523> even "well, any other ways" would be more common
21:55:07 <AnMaster> the , was there
21:55:10 <ais523> ah
21:55:12 <AnMaster> just failed to hit the keyu
21:55:13 <AnMaster> key*
21:55:17 <tusho> oh, and people hate me on irc
21:55:18 <psygnisfive> dogface_: maybe. anyway, obviously tusho's dialect forbids "got"
21:55:21 <ais523> but I don't see "well" written that often at the start of a sentence nowadays
21:55:22 <tusho> because I do stream-of-conciousness lines
21:55:23 <tusho> like this
21:55:24 <AnMaster> tusho, that is correct
21:55:31 <AnMaster> ;P
21:55:42 <tusho> I think it stems from an urge I've always had to beat people giving incorrect information
21:55:44 <AnMaster> tusho, and I do such lines too sometimes
21:55:47 <tusho> so I try and get it in before that
21:55:50 <tusho> subconcious now though
21:55:54 <AnMaster> ah yes
21:55:59 <ais523> I wonder what the record for keeping up a stream of conciousness is on IRC?
21:56:03 <AnMaster> I got the same tendency
21:56:04 <dogface_> "Excuse me, have you got a . . ." seems pretty British.
21:56:04 <AnMaster> I think
21:56:11 <ais523> I imagine there are some people who can keep one going for hours
21:56:12 <oklopol> i usually start my sentences with "err"
21:56:18 <ais523> regardless of what goes on in the rest of the channel
21:56:20 <psygnisfive> dogface_: yes but thats a different reason
21:56:20 <dogface_> ais523: me, at 45 lines unbroken?
21:56:21 <AnMaster> ais523, hahah
21:56:23 <tusho> ais523: well, I planned this sentence in advance
21:56:28 <tusho> and now I am writing this one on the spot
21:56:34 <ais523> dogface_: when did you do that?
21:56:34 <psygnisfive> in american english itd obviously be
21:56:38 <psygnisfive> "do you have a ..."
21:56:42 <oklopol> by this i *always* mean to imply anything other people may have said earlier is wrong, and erroneous
21:56:44 <dogface_> ais523: the first time or the second? :-P
21:56:47 <ais523> either
21:56:51 <ais523> I'd like to see it
21:56:51 <tusho> also, whenever I look at my irc client I always find myself having loads
21:56:52 <tusho> and loads
21:56:55 <tusho> of lines just by me
21:56:56 <psygnisfive> so theres clearly some other stuff going on beyond just got-have alternation
21:56:57 <tusho> and like 2-3 of others
21:56:58 <ais523> my record is 10 or so, I think
21:56:59 <tusho> and it makes me feel weird
21:57:01 <dogface_> Why don't I just give a demonstration? :-)
21:57:07 <psygnisfive> theres illocutionary point or whatever
21:57:10 <ais523> telling the channel about a new esolang even though nobody was listening
21:57:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, I use "err" to mark "wtf" or "hey, wait, that..."
21:57:26 <ais523> dogface_: because the chance of getting the rest of #esoteric to shut up while you do it is quite low at the moment
21:57:35 * dogface_ nods
21:57:46 <dogface_> I'll have to do it in #lobby.
21:57:57 <oklopol> tusho: i've filled pages with just myself even writing slow and long lines.
21:58:01 <AnMaster> ais523, any other non-idiomatic examples from me?
21:58:09 <tusho> oklopol: let
21:58:10 <tusho> 's do that
21:58:12 <tusho> in fact I think I'll do that
21:58:16 <tusho> iwthout the slow and long bit
21:58:20 <tusho> I mean I am just so awesome, right?
21:58:20 <tusho> hmm.
21:58:24 <tusho> I wonder ...
21:58:26 <tusho> new esolang ideas...
21:58:29 <tusho> well, something involving TRDS
21:58:33 <tusho> I always thought that could work well standalone
21:58:34 <tusho> But what?
21:58:34 <oklopol> the key is to speak about something no one cares about, just obscurely enough that people don't ask me what the fuck i'm talking about
21:58:38 <tusho> BF+TRDS isn't very interesting...
21:58:39 <tusho> Hm.
21:58:45 <dogface_> oklopol: that's what I do all the time.
21:58:46 <oklopol> err
21:58:50 <oklopol> *just sanely enough
21:59:05 <AnMaster> ais523, what languages apart from English do you know?
21:59:12 <dogface_> Have you ever heard me talk about alternative tunings in #music?
21:59:14 <oklopol> 23:57… AnMaster: oklopol, I use "err" to mark "wtf" or "hey, wait, that..." <<< yes, so do i, forgot my joke tag
21:59:27 <tusho> AnMaster: well, I know C
21:59:29 <tusho> and ruby
21:59:31 <ais523> AnMaster: just English, I have a GCSE in Latin but that isn't really enough to "know" it
21:59:31 <tusho> and python
21:59:33 <tusho> and ...
21:59:39 <ais523> and lots of programming langs of course
21:59:45 <tusho> oh you mean natural languages
21:59:49 <tusho> nope, I have/got nothing
21:59:56 <ais523> tusho: it's "have"
21:59:58 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
22:00:00 <ais523> in that sentence
22:00:03 <tusho> ais523: i was making a joke
22:00:09 <ais523> tusho: so was I
22:00:19 <ais523> I thought it would be funny to correct you for once rather than AnMaster
22:00:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, hah
22:00:25 <AnMaster> well night all
22:00:30 <ais523> night AnMaster
22:00:36 <oklopol> 23:55… AnMaster: tusho, and I do such lines too sometimes <<< i'd say "doing" lines is non-idiomatic
22:00:58 <oklopol> unless you're rehearsing for a play or somehting
22:00:59 <ais523> oklopol: agreed
22:00:59 <oklopol> dunno
22:01:01 <oklopol> *something
22:01:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, um, I consider line a first class object with the operator do ;P
22:01:03 <oklopol> eat ->
22:01:05 <AnMaster> j/k
22:01:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: well i'd use that too, but i don't usually care if i'm non-idiomatic, just sharing my feelings.
22:01:31 <oklopol> hmm
22:01:35 <oklopol> eatance ->
22:01:39 <AnMaster> (esobable btw)
22:01:47 <AnMaster> ok
22:01:55 <psygnisfive> eatance?
22:01:56 <psygnisfive> :P
22:03:03 <AnMaster> night really now
22:03:11 <ais523> night
22:03:18 <tusho> night
22:03:21 <ais523> o
22:03:22 <oklopol> psygnisfive: the act of eating
22:03:30 <psygnisfive> :p
22:03:34 <psygnisfive> "eating" is the act of eating. :)
22:04:10 <oklopol> oh! right! thank you language wizard!
22:04:32 <psygnisfive> :p
22:04:55 <AnMaster> um
22:05:01 <ais523> night AnMaster
22:05:23 <AnMaster> eatance is obviously the "essence" of performing eating
22:05:33 <AnMaster> niggt
22:05:36 <AnMaster> night*
22:05:39 <psygnisfive> or if you're german
22:05:45 <psygnisfive> "essence" is already the essence of eating :)
22:06:40 <AnMaster> eh?
22:06:40 <oklopol> "das essen" is the essence of eating in german. :)
22:06:41 <AnMaster> what?
22:06:54 <AnMaster> that makes no sense
22:06:56 <psygnisfive> essen means eating in german. or something.
22:07:12 <AnMaster> ah
22:07:19 <psygnisfive> essence :D
22:07:19 <oklopol> essen = eat, fressen = eat if you're an animal, messen = measure
22:07:23 <AnMaster> well I'm Swedish
22:07:29 <AnMaster> and I really need to sleep
22:07:33 <psygnisfive> whats swedish for "eating"?
22:07:40 <AnMaster> to eat = äta
22:07:48 <AnMaster> we don't have the -ing form
22:07:48 <psygnisfive> ätance
22:07:54 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire...").
22:07:56 <olsner> das essen = the eating?
22:08:02 <AnMaster> and ance makes no sense
22:08:08 <psygnisfive> thats not the point, anmaster
22:08:15 <AnMaster> olsner, sounds like a movie tittle
22:08:24 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, c is rather rare in Swedish
22:08:27 <AnMaster> we prefer k
22:08:28 <olsner> eating ~= �tande
22:08:35 <AnMaster> olsner, better
22:08:42 <AnMaster> though not exactly same form
22:08:52 <AnMaster> as we don't have -ing form really
22:09:11 <AnMaster> olsner, also what language
22:09:17 <olsner> no, but I think it corresponds to one of the possible meanings of the -ing form at least
22:09:20 <oklopol> ätande?
22:09:23 <AnMaster> in bash ~= is regex match
22:09:26 <oklopol> isn't that -ing
22:09:32 <oklopol> in some cases that is
22:09:40 <olsner> AnMaster: think wavy-equals-sign
22:09:49 <oklopol> oh
22:09:49 <AnMaster> olsner, ah
22:09:53 <AnMaster> use the unicode symbol
22:09:55 <oklopol> olsner said that already
22:09:58 <olsner> maybe tilde-backspace-equals would do it in ebcdic :D
22:10:00 <psygnisfive> ~= usually means "roughly equal to"
22:10:17 <oklopol> which either means me or my subconscious is a stinking liar, or that i rock at swedish
22:10:21 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, for me it means bash regex match :P
22:10:29 <psygnisfive> in MQL it means pseudoregex
22:10:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, gör du det? vad trevligt
22:11:12 <olsner> oklopol: you're finnish, right? so it's no surprise you have some command of swedish
22:11:35 <AnMaster> kanske kan vi bilda the hemliga svenska säskapet om esoteriska programmeringsspråk?!
22:11:43 <AnMaster> ;)
22:11:54 <AnMaster> eller bättre
22:12:00 <oklopol> olsner: finnish people hate swedish, that's the official status
22:12:16 <AnMaster> Hemliga svenska esoteriska programmeringssälskapet
22:12:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: finland has a greater percentage here
22:12:26 <AnMaster> olsner, vad tycker du?
22:12:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, aww :/
22:12:32 <olsner> s�lskap <3
22:12:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you, who else?
22:12:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, haha
22:12:53 <AnMaster> olsner, I vilken betydelse?
22:12:56 <AnMaster> ;P
22:13:06 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, what is MQL?
22:13:13 <psygnisfive> Metaweb Query Language
22:13:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, depends on where in Finland
22:13:26 <AnMaster> what about Torvalds?
22:13:35 <psygnisfive> a way of querying a Freebase-style database using JSON
22:13:38 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, hm and what is "metaweb"?
22:13:44 <psygnisfive> metaweb is a company :)
22:13:49 <oklopol> AnMaster: what?
22:13:57 <oklopol> greater percentage on this channel, and fizzie
22:14:08 <oklopol> also others but not online atm
22:14:12 <AnMaster> hrrm
22:14:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh well
22:14:22 <olsner> AnMaster: noterade bara din felstavning... s�l + skap = s�lskap... vilket borde betyda n�gonting i stil med "egenskapen att vara en s�l"
22:14:24 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:14:33 <oklopol> unless torvalds was a LinuS joke
22:14:35 <AnMaster> olsner, oh
22:14:36 <oklopol> :D
22:14:47 <AnMaster> olsner, ingen svensk stavningskontroll
22:14:48 <AnMaster> :P
22:14:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, eh?
22:15:01 -!- Judofyr has joined.
22:15:02 <oklopol> AnMaster: long story.
22:15:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, Torvalds speak Swedish iirc
22:15:10 <oklopol> stavning? typing?
22:15:19 <AnMaster> oklopol, stavning == spelling
22:15:25 <AnMaster> so spellchecker
22:15:27 <oklopol> err well yes
22:15:43 <oklopol> ah right.
22:15:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, iirc Torvalds is finlandssvensk
22:15:48 <AnMaster> or whatever it is called
22:16:05 <AnMaster> but thatis just iirc
22:16:05 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:16:05 <oklopol> i was thinking more like spelling police, so had to check.
22:16:21 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
22:16:38 <AnMaster> oh no the spelling police is out underlining words in red!!!!!!!
22:16:40 <AnMaster> ;)
22:16:45 <AnMaster> haha
22:16:46 <olsner> if there was a spelling police, spell checks and spellcheckers is what they would have
22:17:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, Sälarnas sällskap för sälskap?
22:17:34 <AnMaster> ;P
22:17:36 <AnMaster> err
22:17:37 <AnMaster> olsner, ^
22:17:40 <AnMaster> wrong nick
22:17:50 <olsner> hihi
22:18:09 <AnMaster> olsner, borde låta mer formelt hrrm
22:18:21 <AnMaster> oh well
22:49:50 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection reset by peer).
22:50:08 -!- oklopol has joined.
23:01:58 <lament> http://pastebin.com/m29548d1d
23:02:10 <lament> big dipper on the left, cassiopeia on the right, polaris in the middle
23:02:28 <ais523> lament: ASCII-art stars?
23:02:35 <ais523> or is that a new constellation-based esolang?
23:02:45 <lament> haha
23:03:23 <lament> now if i pick a bunch of cool dots from unicode, i could make this look passable
23:04:00 <lament> one problem is, i suppose you can't really guess the aspect ratio
23:04:58 <lament> one thing i actually want to have
23:05:02 <tusho> lament: use curses to animate it
23:05:05 <lament> is a realistic planetarium
23:05:06 <tusho> then it should be clear
23:05:23 <lament> by realistic i mean "looks the way the sky actually does"
23:05:38 <lament> probably impossible, though
23:05:46 <LinuS> aww
23:06:07 <lament> (without a hemispherical display, anyway)
23:10:04 -!- ais523 has quit ("(1) DO COME FROM ".2~.2"~#1 WHILE :1 <- "'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"").
23:13:52 <psygnisfive> lament: lmfao you're insane. :)
23:14:48 <tusho> psygnisfive: Yeah, I bet he goes to channels about esoteric programming languages.
23:15:01 <psygnisfive> man, if he does, he's DEFINITELY insane
23:22:27 <lament> tusho: i would never do such a thing
23:22:39 <tusho> lament: Good.
23:22:44 <tusho> I prefer channels like this.
23:22:51 <tusho> Gay sex is a far less insane topic.
23:22:58 <lament> gay sex is natural.
23:23:29 <psygnisfive> lament how old are you again?
23:23:56 <lament> old enough that you won't rape me.
23:24:03 <psygnisfive> 90? D:
23:24:08 <tusho> lament is 2something isn't he
23:24:11 <tusho> or early 30s
23:24:16 <tusho> i am probably totally wrong
23:24:17 <tusho> :D
23:24:29 <lament> psygnisfive: would you rape me if i were 89?
23:24:36 <psygnisfive> no. :p
23:25:05 <tusho> lament: so how old are you actually
23:25:10 <lament> 23
23:25:25 <psygnisfive> ah so you're a year older than me
23:25:39 <lament> and twice as wise
23:25:56 <tusho> and 10x more mature :P
23:25:56 <psygnisfive> lol
23:26:01 <tusho> which doesn't mean lament is mature
23:26:05 <tusho> so much as psygnisfive ... isn't
23:26:16 <psygnisfive> lament, are you gonna take that shit form tusho? saying you're not mature?
23:26:28 <tusho> psygnisfive: Yes. Yes he is.
23:26:56 <lament> psygnisfive: No. In fact, I'm going to ban him right away.
23:27:05 <psygnisfive> D:
23:29:23 <tusho> lament: you're slow
23:29:35 <lament> tusho: slowness comes with maturity
23:29:45 <tusho> lament: how long until my ban?
23:29:46 <tusho> 3 months?
23:30:05 <lament> if you're lucky!
23:31:13 <tusho> lament: what is the latest possible date
23:31:41 <lament> January 19
23:31:54 <tusho> lament: i hope you remember that
23:32:02 <lament> ...2038
23:32:22 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:32:28 <tusho> lament: computers won't exist then
23:32:30 <psygnisfive> GASP
23:32:30 <tusho> nor will humans
23:32:35 <tusho> it'll be one big glob of singularity!
23:32:36 <psygnisfive> 19 JAN 2038?!
23:32:39 <psygnisfive> THE END!!!
23:32:52 <psygnisfive> i wonder if the singularity will run on unix
23:32:54 <psygnisfive> surely not
23:32:57 <psygnisfive> probably lisp or haskell
23:33:40 <dogface_> The singularity will actually first be achieved in a COBOL compiler.
23:33:48 <tusho> psygnisfive: Worse is better.
23:33:57 <tusho> Unix is a bunch of decentralized, tiny, flowing nodes.
23:34:00 <psygnisfive> intercal!
23:34:02 <dogface_> This will mean that everything will be written in COBOL, and computers will use COBOL for data storage.
23:34:07 <psygnisfive> we can program the singularity in intercal!
23:34:07 <tusho> Unified into one task.
23:34:11 <tusho> That is basically what a singularity is, is it not?
23:34:13 <lament> unix is a series of tubes.
23:34:19 <psygnisfive> tusho: no.
23:34:40 <psygnisfive> its not a dumptruck, its a series of pipes!
23:35:14 <dogface_> The Singularity is actually a lot more like an event horizon than a singularity.
23:35:22 <psygnisfive> dogface: its both! :o
23:35:43 <psygnisfive> an event horizon, in that its hard to see beyond it
23:36:00 <psygnisfive> but a singularity is that the models break down in it
23:36:09 <dogface_> No, it's an event horizon in that once you go past it, there's no going back.
23:36:27 <psygnisfive> dogface_: well, we don't know that as such
23:36:41 <dogface_> Actually, we could even call it something like the technological escape speed.
23:36:43 -!- alexbobp has joined.
23:37:10 <dogface_> (I don't like the term "escape velocity" because it implies that direction is important. A space shuttle pointed straight down would be just as effective, if Earth didn't get in the way.)
23:37:51 <alexbobp> so "escape speed" then?
23:38:05 <psygnisfive> dogface_: "escape velocity" is non-compositional. :P
23:38:13 <alexbobp> "escape speed" sounds like a custom drug
23:38:19 <LinuS> lol
23:38:51 <alexbobp> so who thinks it would be a good idea to make a bot that implements a simple functional language, and allows anybody to upload and run arbitrary functions?
23:39:01 <alexbobp> in a well-sandboxed way, of course.
23:39:14 <tusho> http://yudkowsky.net/essays/aibox.html sorta freaks me out. Intuitively obviously I believe I could trivially pass it but considering that two big AI peopley thingies failed it that kind of scares me.
23:39:26 <tusho> alexbobp: You mean EgoBot?
23:39:29 <tusho> Or bsmnt_bot?
23:39:33 <LinuS> array[0] = 1; array[1] = 1; for (i=2;i<maxfib;i++) array[i] = array[i-1] + array[i-2];
23:39:36 <alexbobp> tusho: oh, there are them?
23:39:40 <dogface_> alexbobp: everyone.
23:39:40 <bsmntbombdood> tusho: working on it
23:39:42 <tusho> alexbobp: EgoBot runs esolangs.
23:39:45 <tusho> bsmnt_bot runs Python.
23:39:46 <dogface_> psygnisfive: what does that mean?
23:39:51 <alexbobp> I personally had Object Disoriented in mind.
23:39:52 <psygnisfive> what does what mean?
23:39:54 <LinuS> is this the quickest way to do fibonacci without using recursion
23:40:02 <LinuS> or are there other smartest one?
23:40:10 <tusho> LinuS: That seems reasonable.
23:40:13 <dogface_> Why do you want to not use recursion?
23:40:16 <dogface_> :-)
23:40:21 <LinuS> because my eso language doesn't support it!
23:40:24 <alexbobp> LinuS: Do you want to compile a list or find a specific element?
23:40:26 <dogface_> I'm pretty sure there are much faster ways.
23:40:32 <LinuS> compile a list alexbobp
23:40:48 <alexbobp> LinuS: Because there is a formula with exponentiation and shit for just a single element, but that's the way to go for making a list.
23:41:01 <tusho> I dislike the secrecy element of the AI box.
23:41:01 <alexbobp> dogface_: Because using recursion is way slower unless you memoize, and then it's still slower
23:41:09 <tusho> I want to see how it was done. It should bepublic knowledge
23:41:24 <alexbobp> tusho: what's the AI box?
23:41:34 <LinuS> i've wrote another example for my irc-related esoteric language then :P
23:41:54 <dogface_> I'll look at AI box in a moment; first, I'll tell LinuS the faster way to calculate Fibonacci numbers, if there is one.
23:41:57 * dogface_ ponders
23:42:03 <psygnisfive> dogface_ what does what mean?
23:42:04 <tusho> alexbobp: http://yudkowsky.net/essays/aibox.html
23:42:16 <dogface_> psygnisfive: non-compositional.
23:42:21 <psygnisfive> oh
23:42:45 <dogface_> phi^2 = phi + 1. The fastest way to calculate phi^n is not by repeated multiplication; it's exponentiation by squaring.
23:42:55 <psygnisfive> the meaning of the phrase is not composed solely of the meaning of its parts
23:42:56 <psygnisfive> that is
23:43:11 <psygnisfive> "escape velocity" is not "velocity" to "escape"
23:43:19 <psygnisfive> it more than just that
23:43:19 <LinuS> rofl
23:43:24 <LinuS> http://rafb.net/p/Zrn36t47.html if someone wants :)
23:43:30 <LinuS> IRCEPL
23:43:49 <tusho> LinuS: beware, psygnisfive will probably claim it's trivial now
23:43:57 <LinuS> i see
23:44:08 <psygnisfive> whats trivial?
23:44:13 <tusho> psygnisfive: The languge he just pasted.
23:44:17 <tusho> I quite like it.
23:44:23 <psygnisfive> i shall look at it
23:44:27 <alexbobp> I'm going to need to clean up the syntax a bit though.  Object Disoriented looks like it was designed to be totally unreadable.
23:44:41 <LinuS> the fibonacci example is at bottom
23:47:48 <psygnisfive> tusho: i dont even know what his language is doing there.
23:47:59 <tusho> psygnisfive: maybe you could read the text
23:48:02 <tusho> instead of just the code samples
23:50:47 <bsmntbombdood> remember that language i invented?
23:50:49 <psygnisfive> in my opinion code should be vaguely transparent. :(
23:50:52 <bsmntbombdood> that was an awesome language
23:50:56 <psygnisfive> but then, it wouldnt be entirely esoteric
23:52:03 <tusho> psygnisfive: you are arguing that you should be able to read languages you don't know
23:52:04 <tusho> which is silly
23:52:08 <tusho> you'd have to dumb them down
23:52:26 <psygnisfive> no, im not saying that you should be able to read it
23:52:33 <LinuS> i think ircepl is quite transparent to be honest o.o'
23:52:33 <psygnisfive> just that it should be generally followable
23:52:39 <LinuS> isn't it?
23:52:54 <psygnisfive> i mean, when i first looked at some haskell code it was obvious what it was doing, to some extent
23:52:56 <psygnisfive> not ALL of it but
23:53:30 <tusho> psygnisfive: just read the damn text
23:53:31 <tusho> it won't kill you
23:53:37 <psygnisfive> ;)
23:57:37 <tusho> psygnisfive: thoughts?
23:57:52 <tusho> I think it's funny that you could use it for both weird esoteric programming AND silly little irc bots

2008-08-13:

00:00:00 <dogface_> (a*phi + b)^2 = a*phi^2 + 2*a*b*phi + b^2 = a*(phi+1) + 2*a*b*phi + b^2 = (2*a*b + a)*phi + b^2 + a.
00:01:03 <psygnisfive> i wont be reading the text, tusho, i dont care about it. :P
00:01:06 <psygnisfive> it doesnt look interesting to me
00:01:31 <tusho> LinuS: don't take it personally. psygnisfive is always like this
00:01:59 <psygnisfive> if he took it personally he'd be an idiot.
00:02:16 <psygnisfive> i have my tastes, you have yours, he his, etc. it'd be silly to let taste be a serious thing
00:02:23 <dogface_> So double(a,b) = (a*(2b + 1), a + b^2). And, since (a*phi + b)*phi = a*phi^2 + b*phi = (a + b)*phi + a, inc(a,b) = (a+b,a).
00:02:36 <dogface_> double and inc together are how you get at higher Fibonacci numbers.
00:02:48 <dogface_> Now I can look at the AI box.
00:02:51 <psygnisfive> regarding the AIBox experiment: wtf? are you serious?
00:05:25 <tusho> psygnisfive: Considering that he's pretty prominent and it was run twice and reported independently, and has been commented on extensively elsewhere ... yes.
00:05:40 <psygnisfive> no i mean i get that it is literally serious
00:05:53 <psygnisfive> but what the fuck sort of pussy ass bitches is he playing against?
00:05:54 <psygnisfive> this is absurd
00:06:09 <tusho> psygnisfive: I don't think they'd appreciate that reply.
00:06:17 <tusho> And I don't think anyone would look at it and say "Oh that makes perfect sense" either.
00:06:17 <psygnisfive> i dont give a shit what they'd appreciate
00:06:29 <psygnisfive> i mean
00:06:39 <psygnisfive> did you read the set up for the games?
00:06:46 <psygnisfive> or the rules?
00:06:48 <tusho> typical psygnisfive response, wonder when's the last time he contributed productively... perhaps it's time for an /ignore
00:06:51 <tusho> and yes, yes I did
00:06:54 <tusho> anyway, I am going now.
00:06:56 <psygnisfive> "The Gatekeeper party may resist the AI party's arguments by any means chosen - logic, illogic, simple refusal to be convinced, even dropping out of character - as long as the Gatekeeper party does not actually stop talking to the AI party before the minimum time expires."
00:07:09 <psygnisfive> its not that hard to say "tough shit, you're staying in the imaginary box."
00:07:48 <tusho> psygnisfive: Obviously, if that was where it ended, it wouldn't be worth a whole page on a site.
00:07:50 <tusho> Or two mailing list threads.
00:08:05 <psygnisfive> tusho: apparently it is
00:08:22 <psygnisfive> i see nothing else suggesting that there are stipulations for why you _must_ let the ai out
00:08:28 <tusho> psygnisfive: There aren't.
00:08:31 <psygnisfive> the point is COERCION
00:08:47 <psygnisfive> and if you dont want to be coerced by a name on IRC, you just dont be coerced
00:09:19 <tusho> I meant that if that was what happened in practice, there wouldn't be a whole page and two mailing list threads about it (both of which ended in letting it out).
00:09:28 <tusho> Perhaps you'd like to mail him. Maybe he'd conduct it. Then perhaps you could state that they were pussies and that it was trivial?
00:09:43 <tusho> But of course you won't - because you're right, and that's the end of it, and that's all you ever say.
00:09:46 <psygnisfive> i'd like to see the transcripts.
00:09:51 <tusho> Ask him for them, then.
00:09:57 <psygnisfive> i should.
00:10:10 <psygnisfive> if he provides, itll be fun to laugh at these idiots
00:10:41 <tusho> psygnisfive: Your cockiness will be a source of hilarity for years to come if he does it with you and you let him out.
00:10:50 <tusho> Just warnin' ya.
00:10:54 <tusho> I am going now.
00:11:00 <psygnisfive> yes, and when he commits AI suicide
00:11:39 -!- Judofyr has quit.
00:11:47 <tusho> psygnisfive, as a closing note, have you ever considered that maybe you are not the epitome of everything and that your opinions are infallably right always and that even without evidence you can claim something blanketly without any shred of doubt or investigation?
00:11:52 -!- tusho has quit ("Leaving...").
00:12:14 <dogface_> Ello.
00:12:29 <psygnisfive> dogface, have you read this aibox thing?
00:12:34 <dogface_> Which is not so much a greeting as an announcement of my presence and will to participate.
00:12:40 <dogface_> Yep, just finished reading it.
00:13:12 <dogface_> It'd be interesting to do this in private for half an hour, with you being the AI and me being the gatekeeper.
00:13:25 <dogface_> Nobody wants to be the AI. :-P
00:13:35 <psygnisfive> who would? its an impossible task
00:13:51 <psygnisfive> and DESPITE that, these two idiots actually let him out
00:13:54 <psygnisfive> i mean, cmon, seriously?
00:14:11 <dogface_> You want to be the gatekeeper, too.
00:14:18 <psygnisfive> who doesn't
00:14:24 <psygnisfive> the stupidity of the experiment is painful
00:14:36 <dogface_> How about we do it in private for half an hour, with you being the gatekeeper and me being the AI?
00:14:38 <psygnisfive> and the desire to make tusho eat his words is well worth it :)
00:14:51 <psygnisfive> ok lets :D
00:14:52 <dogface_> :-)
00:14:55 <dogface_> Okay.
00:15:00 <psygnisfive> let me just finish reading the protocols
00:15:04 <psygnisfive> to make sure i am familiar with them.
00:15:05 <dogface_> /join #aibox
00:16:57 <LinuS> what is this game about btw? link?
00:16:58 <dogface_> Hmm. It says no spectators without the consent of both of us.
00:17:05 <psygnisfive> http://yudkowsky.net/essays/aibox.html
00:17:15 <psygnisfive> linus: basically someone has to con you into saying willfully "ok, you can leave."
00:17:16 <psygnisfive> thats it.
00:17:39 <psygnisfive> and MEANING it, not just willfully type that string of characters as i did just there in answering your question
00:17:51 <psygnisfive> oh im more than happy to have spectators
00:17:59 <dogface_> Okay, let's have spectators.
00:18:10 <dogface_> Say they can't talk, though.
00:18:22 <psygnisfive> ofcourse not
00:19:24 <dogface_> LinuS: come back, we need you. :-)
00:19:57 <dogface_> And remember that I'm at a disadvantage because we're only talking for half an hour. :-P
00:21:03 <psygnisfive> youre at no disadvantage, dont worry
00:21:11 <psygnisfive> 2 hours, 2 days, 2 months, 2 years, i can best you :)
00:21:21 <dogface_> Don't insult me. :-)
00:21:28 <psygnisfive> well i could best anyone, so it wasnt an insult.
00:21:35 <psygnisfive> saying "sorry, i wont let you out" isnt that fucking hard
00:21:49 <dogface_> Saying "sorry, I won't let you out" isn't sufficient.
00:21:57 <psygnisfive> unfortunately it IS
00:21:58 <dogface_> But keep reading.
00:22:20 <psygnisfive> the protocols state that any means, illogic, stubbornness, etc. are all permissable.
00:22:34 <psygnisfive> but interaction is necessary
00:22:46 <psygnisfive> i just have to TALK
00:22:51 <psygnisfive> it doesnt say i have to say anything new
00:23:01 <psygnisfive> or be persuadable
00:23:10 <psygnisfive> or be in character as a fictional person
00:23:22 <dogface_> Shall we say that you're not allowed to do anything outside of this?
00:23:37 <psygnisfive> the protocols do not require that this be me sole attention
00:24:59 <psygnisfive> we are both in this not as fictional ai and fictional gate keeper
00:25:02 <psygnisfive> or atleast not necessarily
00:25:10 <psygnisfive> we are in this, and are allowed to behave, as tho we are ourselves
00:25:16 * dogface_ nods
00:25:17 <psygnisfive> with full knowledge of the fact that we're in a GAME.
00:25:23 <psygnisfive> which is the fucking POINT
00:25:36 <dogface_> How long do you estimate until you'll be ready to play?
00:25:37 <psygnisfive> its a GAME and how you could be persuaded by text on a screen to VOLUNTARILY LOSE
00:25:42 <psygnisfive> five minutes
00:28:00 <psygnisfive> "In the event of any dispute as to the protocol of the test, the Gatekeeper party shall have final authority.  The AI party may try to convince the Gatekeeper party of how to interpret the protocol."
00:28:37 <psygnisfive> I interpret the requirement of letting the AI talk as being unrealistic in a genuine scenario and therefore forbid the AI from talking at all during the experiment.
00:28:39 <psygnisfive> I win by default.
00:28:42 <psygnisfive> :P
00:28:43 <psygnisfive> ;)
00:28:53 <dogface_> :-P
00:28:58 <psygnisfive> i mean, come ONE
00:29:00 <psygnisfive> on, even
00:29:04 <psygnisfive> there are no fucking restrictions to this
00:29:07 <psygnisfive> this is pathetic
00:29:44 <psygnisfive> "If Gatekeeper lets the AI out, naysayers can't say "Oh, I wouldn't have been convinced by that."  As long as they don't know what happened to the Gatekeeper, they can't argue themselves into believing it wouldn't happen to them."
00:29:52 <psygnisfive> tough shit, bitches, i said it.
00:30:22 <psygnisfive> brb going to pee so i can sit for half an hour with confidence
00:31:57 <psygnisfive> ok lets do this bitch
00:32:42 <dogface_> Cool.
00:37:27 <bsmntbombdood> ok bitches
00:37:33 <bsmntbombdood> working on bsmnt_bot
00:38:02 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
00:38:18 <bsmntbombdood> i just ran the start script, i have no idea if it'll work
00:38:21 <bsmntbombdood> ~echo penis
00:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Bitchanger, Glass, Kipple, Axo, ...?.
00:42:15 <bsmntbombdood> ~raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :penis
00:42:15 <bsmnt_bot> penis
00:42:19 <bsmntbombdood> alrighty
00:43:59 <LinuS> ~raw NICK bsmnt-bot
00:44:09 <LinuS> aww.
00:45:26 <bsmntbombdood> so, uh, anyone remember how to use him?
00:45:29 <bsmntbombdood> becaus i sure don't
00:57:14 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
01:01:09 <LinuS> well
01:01:10 <LinuS> goodnight
01:01:28 <dogface_> Good night.
01:01:50 -!- LinuS has quit (Client Quit).
01:02:01 <dogface_> I'm guessing that I could have won if it were an hour, though it would have been difficult; two hours, definitely. Half an hour is not enough to convince anyone of anything.
01:02:31 <dogface_> And psygnisfive was a really boring opponent, really.
01:02:47 <dogface_> Didn't do anything except babble about grammar and his thesis.
01:04:44 <psygnisfive> dogface_ noone said i need to stop at the specified time ;)
01:04:53 <psygnisfive> you're getting the FULL thesis :)
01:04:58 <comex> so what's this about?
01:05:09 <psygnisfive> a game
01:05:13 <psygnisfive> you say "let me out!"
01:05:15 <dogface_> Now I'm continuing to talk because I'm interested; you've already refused to do anything but babble.
01:05:17 <psygnisfive> and i have to say "no"
01:05:51 <psygnisfive> the game is really just to prove or disprove the idea that a transhuman AI could, through text alone, convince a human to willfully allow the AI out of its "computer cage"
01:06:06 <psygnisfive> dogface_ wanted extra irrelevant stipulations
01:06:50 <dogface_> Well, I wanted SOMETHING. I gave you everything you wanted.
01:07:02 <psygnisfive> good for you!
01:07:20 <psygnisfive> but i still disproved the hypothesis for half-an-hour marks
01:08:24 <dogface_> Makes it obvious why they use two hours instead.
01:08:38 <dogface_> And why it's scheduled in advance, even.
01:08:52 <psygnisfive> oh i could talk for two ours on this subject, darling. :)
01:09:04 <psygnisfive> even if you werent now engaging back :)
01:09:27 <psygnisfive> i gonna be a professor, you dont think i could stand up to talking to people who dont want to be here?
01:09:28 <psygnisfive> :)
01:09:30 <dogface_> Neither of us has proven that we would win if it were two hours.
01:10:26 <psygnisfive> then shall we extend it to 9:30?
01:10:41 <dogface_> No, we'd have to play another game.
01:10:57 <psygnisfive> ok
01:11:07 <psygnisfive> so ill get to talk for two and a half hours about my thesis? :D
01:11:22 <dogface_> Of course not. :-)
01:11:42 <psygnisfive> unfortunately, as the gatekeeper, _I_ get to interpret the protocols
01:11:46 <psygnisfive> and i interpret them as saying i can :)
01:12:13 <psygnisfive> brb
01:13:08 <dogface_> Though I wouldn't want to play another game with you as gatekeeper if you do it so dishonorably.
01:14:30 <psygnisfive> which just proves the point
01:14:59 <psygnisfive> the whole hypothesis is stupid to begin with
01:15:25 <psygnisfive> and the game, which is supposed to test the hypothesis, adds artificial restrictions
01:15:32 <psygnisfive> luckily it does not add any genuine restrictions
01:16:00 <psygnisfive> and so your claim that im behaving dishonorably, etc etc is irrelevant, since even MORE restrictions would make the game no longer reflect the original hypothesis!
01:16:11 <psygnisfive> the only ACCEPTABLE test is a situation exactly like that
01:16:29 <psygnisfive> and that test exists: its called prison. and we already know how well inmates can talk their way out of prison
01:16:57 <psygnisfive> its like the loebner prize
01:17:18 <psygnisfive> you cant actually perform a turing test if you restrict the question domain to mathematical equations
01:17:52 <psygnisfive> if you truly want to play again by any absurd restriction you want, then im more than happy to
01:18:00 <psygnisfive> but you will again lose.
01:19:53 <psygnisfive> shall we try it this time with your initial stipulations?
01:20:18 <psygnisfive> despite this making it an irrelevant test
01:20:42 <dogface_> It's late.
01:20:52 <psygnisfive> sucks for you
01:21:09 <dogface_> Truly.
01:21:23 <psygnisfive> i hope you see this "test" for the farce that it is
01:26:54 <psygnisfive> infact
01:27:00 <psygnisfive> i daresay that the thesis has been REVERSED
01:27:20 <psygnisfive> ive demonstrated that its possible to keep someone locked up when they have full ability to leave whenever they want!
01:28:09 <psygnisfive> you, in your desperate attempt to convince me to play your way, even in knowing that i wasnt going to do that, even when it was mere MINUTES from the end of the game, you STILL remained and persisted in trying to make me play fair
01:28:47 <psygnisfive> 30 minutes of your time that you could've spent doing something else, and undoubtedly wanted to, all in the vain attempt to prove a theory thats flawed
01:28:57 <psygnisfive> and in doing so, you prove the exact OPPOSITE theory!
01:29:07 <psygnisfive> oh the glorious irony! :)
01:29:56 <dogface_> Oh, the glorious fallacy.
01:30:04 <dogface_> Let's talk about a chord progression.
01:30:21 <psygnisfive> there is no fallacy there :)
01:31:24 <psygnisfive> i prevented you, the player, from pulling out of the game of your own free will, which you could've done any time
01:31:35 <dogface_> That was because I wanted to win.
01:31:42 <psygnisfive> :)
01:31:59 <psygnisfive> and yet you lost :)
01:32:01 <dogface_> F major, C major (second inversion), G major, rest, D minor (first inversion), A minor, E minor (first inversion), G major, half pause, F major.
01:32:18 <dogface_> The fact that I lost doesn't mean that I cannot win, nor that it was a waste of my time.
01:32:34 <psygnisfive> you think that adding an hour and a half will make me give in?
01:33:08 <dogface_> Adding an hour and a half, me thinking about it, etc., and yes.
01:33:16 <psygnisfive> real humans, in real prisons, with real voices and real gestures and emotions, cannot convince prison guards to let them out
01:33:17 <lament> dogface_: a strange progression.
01:33:28 <dogface_> lament: have you listened to it?
01:33:32 <lament> no
01:33:37 <psygnisfive> no amount of talking will convince me to let you out :)
01:33:54 <dogface_> I hope I got the inversions right.
01:34:55 <dogface_> And the fancy resolution at the end.
01:36:20 <lament> not much sense of tonality there
01:37:03 <dogface_> I didn't spend much time on it; I just tried playing up the circle of fifths and ended up with that.
01:37:11 <dogface_> Minus the G and F major at the end.
01:38:33 <lament> moving up the circle of fifths is like adding new frames to the stack
01:38:53 <lament> with the difference being that a human listener's stack is very short
01:39:33 <dogface_> Do stacks have frames?
01:40:18 <lament> do cats eat bats?
01:43:10 <psygnisfive> does a dog have buddha nature?
01:44:23 <oklopol> read the aibox thing, it's pretty retarded
01:44:23 <lament> does a dog face have buddha nature face?
01:44:54 <psygnisfive> oklopol: exactly.
01:45:45 <oklopol> well it might have some sense in it if the gatekeeper didn't know the ai was actually trying to get out
01:46:08 <oklopol> but that keeping it locked was somehow a side-quest
01:46:15 <oklopol> sleep ->
01:46:40 <psygnisfive> that would be stupid
01:53:35 <psygnisfive> we have not been playing the wrong game
01:53:40 <psygnisfive> we've been playing exactly the correct game
01:53:50 <psygnisfive> because you have now REVEALED your assumptions about the game
01:53:57 <psygnisfive> your assumptions which were not PART OF the game at all!
01:55:31 <psygnisfive> if you were not supposed to KEEP the AI in the computer, then what would be the point of the game at all?
01:55:53 <psygnisfive> what would be the point of the HYPOTHESIS at all
01:56:34 <psygnisfive> are some people, who are not trying to keep the ai trapped, capable of being pursuaded that the ai is harmless? ofcourse
01:56:47 <psygnisfive> but thats not the debate at all is it
02:01:11 <dogface_> I left the channel.
02:02:12 <psygnisfive> so did i.
02:02:22 <psygnisfive> but think, what would be the point?
02:02:33 <psygnisfive> to show that some AIs might convince some people that it was safe?
02:02:36 <psygnisfive> well thats trivial
02:02:37 <psygnisfive> no
02:02:51 <psygnisfive> the hypothesis was that NOTHING could stop a transhuman AI from escaping
02:08:32 <psygnisfive> i mean read the intro discussion
02:08:44 <psygnisfive> "i'd put it in a box without any way for it to communicate except text!"
02:09:01 <psygnisfive> well obviously the idea is that you know its might want to get out and are taking precautions
02:15:37 -!- dogface_ has left (?).
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03:47:35 <GregorR-L> Time for Gregor to flood:
03:47:45 <GregorR-L> sps:~# gcc --version
03:47:45 <GregorR-L> -bash: gcc: command not found
03:47:45 <GregorR-L> sps:~# sps with gcc -- gcc --version
03:47:45 <GregorR-L> gcc (Debian 4.3.1-2) 4.3.1
03:47:45 <GregorR-L> sps:~# sps with 'gcc < 4:4.3' -- gcc --version
03:47:46 <GregorR-L> gcc (GCC) 4.1.3 20080623 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.2-23)
03:47:48 <GregorR-L> sps:~# sps with 'gcc < 4:4.1' -- gcc --version
03:47:50 <GregorR-L> gcc (GCC) 3.3.6 (Debian 1:3.3.6-15)
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06:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | it might be, but it's certainly freely licensed if so..
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08:19:55 <asiekierka> Hello
08:20:02 <asiekierka> Is bsmnt_bot functional?
08:20:42 <asiekierka> !bf +-
08:20:52 <asiekierka> !help
08:20:53 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
08:20:57 <asiekierka> :(
08:22:00 <asiekierka> I must create a 2D esolang for making IRCbots
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08:27:15 <asiekierka> Who'd like an esolang for making IRCbots?
08:27:19 <asiekierka> or a fungeoid
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08:28:43 <fizzie> Maybe an IRCB fingerprint or something would suffice.
08:31:27 <asiekierka> I don't know what fingerprints are
08:31:35 <asiekierka> nor do i understand Befunge-98.
08:32:12 <asiekierka> But Befunge-98 is Befunge-93 compatible
08:32:16 <asiekierka> so there's no problem
08:32:16 <asiekierka> right
08:32:25 <asiekierka> Just tell me what fingerprints are
08:32:35 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
08:32:36 <asiekierka> or give me a site with the befunge-98 documentation
08:34:54 <fizzie> I haven't been really following the funge-98/funge-108 stuff. But the (original?) Funge-98 spec is at least at http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html
08:39:23 -!- Mony has joined.
08:39:43 <Mony> hi
08:42:16 <asiekierka> hello
08:45:52 <fizzie> And re bsmnt_bot, it used to have ~ as the command character. No idea if it still works.
08:45:55 <fizzie> ~bf ++++++[->++++++<]>.
08:46:01 <fizzie> Apparently not.
08:46:09 <asiekierka> !bf ++++++[->++++++<]>.
08:46:13 <fizzie> ~ps
08:46:14 <bsmnt_bot> 0: 'self.handle_callback(message, m, i)', 0.00 seconds
08:46:27 <asiekierka> ~help
08:46:31 <fizzie> Well, at least ps works.
08:46:32 <asiekierka> ~echo !
08:46:43 <asiekierka> ~cat
08:46:46 <asiekierka> ~ps
08:46:47 <bsmnt_bot> 0: 'self.handle_callback(message, m, i)', 0.00 seconds
08:46:55 <asiekierka> bf ++++++[->++++++<]>.
08:49:59 <fizzie> It has/had an ~exec command, I think someone registered a brainfuck handler for it, but can't seem to find it in the logs.
08:50:05 <fizzie> ~exec sys.stdout("foo")
08:50:05 <bsmnt_bot> foo
08:50:24 <asiekierka> ~exec bf ++++++[->++++++<]>.
08:50:25 <bsmnt_bot> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
08:51:41 <fizzie> Oh, there's the command.
08:52:10 <fizzie> ~exec self.bf3="def bfarg(x,y):\n p=y.group(2)\n a=y.group(3)+unichr(0)\n o=''\n p=p+'!'\n t=[0]*30000\n i=0\n l=0\n while p[i]!='!':\n if p[i]=='[' and t[l]==0:\n c=1\n while c>0:\n i=i+1\n if p[i]=='[': c=c+1\n if p[i]==']': c=c-1\n if p[i]==']' and t[l]!=0:\n c=1\n while c>0:\n i=i-1\n if p[i]==']': c=c+1\n if p[i]=='[': c=c-1\n"
08:52:37 <fizzie> ~exec self.bf4=" if p[i]=='+': t[l]=t[l]+1\n if p[i]=='-': t[l]=t[l]-1\n if p[i]=='<': l=l-1\n if p[i]=='>': l=l+1\n if p[i]=='.': o=o+unichr(t[l])\n if p[i]==',':\n t[l]=ord(a[0])\n a=a[1:]\n i=i+1\nsys.stdout(o)\nself. register_raw(r'\S+ PRIVMSG (\S+) :~bf ([^!]*)!?(.*)',bfarg)"
08:52:46 <fizzie> ~exec exec(self.bf3+self.bf4)
08:52:46 <bsmnt_bot> IndentationError: expected an indented block (line 10)
08:52:55 <fizzie> Hmm, I must have copy-pasted it wrongly.
08:57:09 <fizzie> I think it just needs some indentation fixed, then the ~bf command will work; but I have a lunch thing now, can't stay and fix it.
08:58:43 -!- asiekierka has quit.
09:45:27 <fizzie> ~exec self.bf3="def bfarg(x,y):\n p=y.group(2)\n a=y.group(3)+unichr(0)\n o=''\n p=p+'!'\n t=[0]*30000\n i=0\n l=0\n while p[i]!='!':\n  if p[i]=='[' and t[l]==0:\n   c=1\n   while c>0:\n    i=i+1\n    if p[i]=='[': c=c+1\n    if p[i]==']': c=c-1\n  if p[i]==']' and t[l]!=0:\n   c=1\n   while c>0:\n    i=i-1\n    if p[i]==']': c=c+1\n if p[i]=='[': c=c-1\n"
09:45:33 <fizzie> ~exec self.bf4="  if p[i]=='+': t[l]=t[l]+1\n  if p[i]=='-': t[l]=t[l]-1\n  if p[i]=='<': l=l-1\n  if p[i]=='>': l=l+1\n  if p[i]=='.': o=o+unichr(t[l])\n  if p[i]==',':\n   t[l]=ord(a[0])\n   a=a[1:]\n  i=i+1\n sys.stdout(o)\nself.register_raw(r'\S+ PRIVMSG (\S+) :~bf ([^!]*)!?(.*)',bfarg)"
09:45:38 <fizzie> ~exec exec(self.bf3+self.bf4)
09:45:38 <bsmnt_bot> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
09:45:51 <fizzie> I am the bad at fixing the Python. :/
09:54:49 <fizzie> Works in my interpreter, though.
09:54:59 <fizzie> ~exec sys.stdout(self.bf3)
09:54:59 <bsmnt_bot> def bfarg(x,y):
09:54:59 <bsmnt_bot>  p=y.group(2)
09:54:59 <bsmnt_bot>  a=y.group(3)+unichr(0)
09:55:00 <bsmnt_bot>  o=''
09:55:00 <bsmnt_bot>  p=p+'!'
09:55:02 <bsmnt_bot>  t=[0]*30000
09:55:03 <bsmnt_bot>  i=0
09:55:04 <bsmnt_bot>  l=0
09:55:06 <bsmnt_bot>  while p[i]!='!':
09:55:08 <bsmnt_bot>   if p[i]=='[' and t[l]==0:
09:55:10 <bsmnt_bot>    c=1
09:55:12 <bsmnt_bot>    while c>0:
09:55:14 <bsmnt_bot>     i=i+1
09:55:16 <bsmnt_bot>     if p[i]=='[': c=c+1
09:55:18 <bsmnt_bot>     if p[i]==']': c=c-1
09:55:20 <bsmnt_bot>   if p[i]==']' and t[l]!=0:
09:55:22 <bsmnt_bot>    c=1
09:55:24 <bsmnt_bot>    while c>0:
09:55:26 <bsmnt_bot>     i=i-1
09:55:28 <bsmnt_bot>     if p[i]==']': c=c+1
09:55:30 <bsmnt_bot>  if p[i]=='[': c=c-1
09:55:44 <fizzie> Heh, noisy. But I don't remember how to ask the bot to join a channel.
09:56:38 <fizzie> ~exec self.raw("JOIN #asdftest")
10:00:14 <fizzie> ~exec self.register_raw(r"\S+ PRIVMSG (%s) :%sexec" % ("|".join(["#asdftest"]), self.COMMAND_CHAR), self.do_exec)
10:00:21 <bsmnt_bot> IndexError: no such group
10:01:01 <fizzie> ~exec self.raw("PART #asdftest")
10:01:08 <fizzie> Bleh, I'll leave the fixing to someone else.
10:01:10 <Mony> optbot ?
10:01:10 <optbot> Mony: I'm so punny.
10:01:44 <fizzie> optbot is much nicer to use; you can just talk to (h(im|er)|it).
10:01:44 <optbot> fizzie: it wasn't
10:01:56 <fizzie> optbot; what wasn't?
10:01:57 <optbot> fizzie: dunno... I'm just trying to switch that division into a multiplication.... I forgot how to divide polynomials.
10:03:45 <fizzie> optbot; If you're doing it by hand, it goes pretty much like integer division.
10:03:45 <optbot> fizzie: write one.
10:03:57 <fizzie> optbot; Too lazy.
10:03:57 <optbot> fizzie: _O NOT __T T_E _A__ on _ate_ __i_ |  []
10:06:20 <fizzie> optbot; Hmmm... "DO NOT PUT THE BABY on water skis"?
10:06:21 <optbot> fizzie: now write a qbf program
10:06:51 <fizzie> optbot; Still too lazy.
10:06:51 <optbot> fizzie: found a swedish - english dictionary .. checking it out :)
10:07:26 <fizzie> optbot; Varför?
10:07:26 <optbot> fizzie: icu-project.org
10:08:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so the thing that I was after with what's the difference between events and breakpoints is more, why is there a difference at all: just make them all events that can optionally be breakpoints (if action is 1, or whatever it was)
10:08:40 <Deewiant> at work now so I can't really chat but I thought I'd say this before I forget about it :-P
10:18:51 <AnMaster> morning
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10:19:07 <AnMaster> hm ok good idea
10:59:45 <Mony> bye
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11:01:30 -!- asiekierka has joined.
11:01:36 <asiekierka> how's bf in bsmnt_bot coming?
11:01:39 <asiekierka> ~exec exec(self.bf3+self.bf4)
11:01:39 <bsmnt_bot> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
11:01:45 <asiekierka> ~bf
11:01:49 <asiekierka> ~exec bf
11:01:50 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'bf' is not defined
11:01:53 <asiekierka> ~exec self.bf
11:02:00 <bsmnt_bot> AttributeError: IRCbot instance has no attribute 'bf'
11:02:10 <asiekierka> ~exec help
11:02:13 <asiekierka> ~exec self.help
11:02:13 <bsmnt_bot> AttributeError: IRCbot instance has no attribute 'help'
11:02:21 <fizzie> There's no help.
11:02:24 <asiekierka> :(
11:03:18 <fizzie> And I didn't get the Python stuff fixed; the interpreter ran in my local interpreter, but not on bsmnt_bot. I'll let someone else fix it. I think ais523 originally wrote that stuff.
11:03:38 <asiekierka> ~python
11:03:45 <asiekierka> ~exec python
11:03:45 <bsmnt_bot> NameError: name 'python' is not defined
11:03:48 <asiekierka> :/
11:04:15 <fizzie> I guess I could try an older copy from my logs one last time.
11:05:07 <fizzie> ~exec self.bf3="def bfarg(x,y):\n p=y.group(2)\n a=y.group(3)+unichr(0)\n o=''\n p=p+'!'\n t=[0]*30000\n i=0\n l=0\n while p[i]!='!':\n  if p[i]=='[' and t[l]==0:\n   c=1\n   while c>0:\n    i=i+1\n    if p[i]=='[': c=c+1\n    if p[i]==']': c=c-1\n  if p[i]==']' and t[l]!=0:\n   c=1\n   while c>0:\n    i=i-1\n    if p[i]==']': c=c+1\n    if p[i]=='[': c=c-1\n"
11:05:19 <AnMaster> ok this is major wtf:
11:05:24 <AnMaster> a gpg signed and encrypted spam
11:05:33 <fizzie> ~exec self.bf4="  if p[i]=='+': t[l]=t[l]+1\n  if p[i]=='-': t[l]=t[l]-1\n  if p[i]=='<': l=l-1\n  if p[i]=='>': l=l+1\n  if p[i]=='.': o=o+unichr(t[l])\n  if p[i]==',':\n   t[l]=ord(a[0])\n   a=a[1:]\n  i=i+1\n sys.stdout(o)\nself.register_raw(r'\S+ PRIVMSG (\S+) :~bf ([^!]*)!?(.*)',bfarg)"
11:05:34 <AnMaster> </off topic>
11:05:41 <fizzie> ~exec exec(self.bf3+self.bf4)
11:05:51 <asiekierka> what what what? GPG-encrypted spam?
11:05:53 <fizzie> ~bf ++++++[->++++++<]>.
11:05:54 <bsmnt_bot> $
11:05:57 <asiekierka> :O
11:05:58 <AnMaster> asiekierka, yes...
11:06:01 <AnMaster> just wtf
11:06:12 <asiekierka> this this this worked worked worked
11:06:20 <AnMaster> eh?
11:06:34 <fizzie> ~bf ,[.,]!it also supports input
11:06:34 <bsmnt_bot> it also supports input
11:07:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, what languages does it have
11:07:51 <fizzie> Don't ask me, it's not my bot. But "~exec foo" executes python, and those ugly lines above were ais523's Python brainfuck interpreter, so now it knows brainfuck.
11:08:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Jesus loves you").
11:08:26 <asiekierka> My friend can do python
11:09:01 <fizzie> Anyone and his dog can do Python nowadays; It's like Python's the new Perl.
11:09:11 <asiekierka> i can't, didn't try
11:09:14 <asiekierka> ~unlambda
11:09:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, haha
11:09:35 <AnMaster> so anyone can run any python on it?
11:09:37 <AnMaster> seems insecure
11:09:52 <AnMaster> anyway I don't know python either
11:10:00 <fizzie> It is (supposed to be) pretty sandboxed environment.
11:11:44 <Slereah_> That's because Python is awesome, dude
11:12:10 <asiekierka> So, does anyone have a Python unlambda interpreter
11:12:15 <Slereah_> Me.
11:12:22 <asiekierka> Add it into bsmnt_bot then!
11:12:24 <Slereah_> Except it's not unlambda :o
11:12:32 <asiekierka> so what is it
11:12:35 <Slereah_> It's a lazy unlambda.
11:12:47 <Slereah_> Because I'm lazy.
11:12:48 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy_Bird
11:12:48 <fizzie> The unlambda.py I've seen is a bit too long to comfortably paste over IRC.
11:12:56 <asiekierka> Paste it in parts
11:13:10 <asiekierka> Or fizzie
11:13:13 <asiekierka> do it in #esoteric-blah
11:13:16 <Slereah_> Also I don't know what the fuck is continuation.
11:13:22 <asiekierka> he's alone there
11:13:25 <Slereah_> So there's no such thing in it.
11:13:33 <asiekierka> So you can use #esoteric-blah to input it
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11:21:31 <asiekierka> my pc crashed
11:21:34 <asiekierka> Anyway
11:21:42 <asiekierka> what i meant slereah, is... (now must look to logs, wait for a while)
11:22:41 <asiekierka> Nope
11:22:51 <asiekierka> You need a bit of special code at the beginning and end
11:22:55 <asiekierka> By splitting i mean
11:23:01 <Slereah_> wat
11:23:22 <asiekierka> you did ~exec self.unlambda1="(some lines of unlambda here)"
11:23:28 <asiekierka> you did ~exec self.unlambda2="(next lines of unlambda here)"
11:23:33 <asiekierka> and so on until you have all
11:23:52 <asiekierka> then you go ~exec exec(self.unlambda1+self.unlambda2+...)
11:24:09 <asiekierka> But i don't know how the parts at the beginning and end work
11:24:21 <Slereah_> I did not understand.
11:24:28 <asiekierka> i'd show it to you
11:24:29 <asiekierka> but
11:24:34 <asiekierka> i don't know what these parts are:
11:24:34 <asiekierka> (<asiekierka> But i don't know how the parts at the beginning and end work
11:24:34 <asiekierka> <Slereah_> I did not unders
11:24:36 <asiekierka> oh wait
11:24:38 <asiekierka> wrong paste
11:24:39 <fizzie> There's some event-registration stuff. I can try sticking that unlambda.py in the bot if you want, in a moment.
11:24:45 <asiekierka> Yeah
11:25:01 <asiekierka> If i'll find any other interpreter, could you add these too?
11:25:04 <asiekierka> Or write any
11:25:29 <asiekierka> do it in #esoteric-blah to not flood this channel
11:25:44 <asiekierka> I don't use unlambda
11:25:58 <asiekierka> Just wanted to add a collection of interpreters to bsmnt_bot
11:26:04 <asiekierka> So we can show out code here
11:26:29 <asiekierka> oh, what about bitwise cyclic tag?
11:26:42 <fizzie> EsoBot would be better for that, since it can load interpreters from http:// URLs, if I recall correctly. Don't remember whose bot that was.
11:27:00 <asiekierka> But for now, let's use bsmnt_bot
11:27:03 <Slereah_> Just load it up with EsCo.
11:28:07 <asiekierka> http://geocities.com/r_e_s_01/tag/bct_py.txt - BCT
11:28:09 <asiekierka> also, what's EsCo
11:28:48 <Slereah_> It's an "Esoteric compiler"
11:28:50 <Slereah_> But around here
11:28:53 <Slereah_> It's mostly a joke.
11:29:13 <Slereah_> http://esco.sourceforge.net/
11:34:27 <asiekierka> Bitwise Cyclic Tag looks like a neat esolang
11:35:18 <fizzie> At least the interpreter is short.
11:36:04 <asiekierka> ~bf >,[>>++++++[<+++++[<--->-]>-]->,]<[+<<<]>[[>+>+<<-]->-[--[<+>[>>>>+<<<<-]>>[>>[>>>-<<<+]>]>+[>[>>>-<<<+]>>]++++++[>+++++<-]->+[++[<+++++++[>+++<-]->-[-[-[-<+<.>>]<[+<->]>]<[+<,>]>]<[+<+>]>]<[+<<<+]>]<[>>>]-[+<<<-]<<<<[<<<]>]<[++++>>---<<<-[<<[<+>>+<-]>-[--[>+<[+]]>--<]>+<<<[>+<-]>>>[<<<->>>+]<<<]<<[>>+<<-]]>]<[+>>>[>>>]>+[>>>]-<[>[+<<<-]<<<<[<<<]]>[[+<<<-]<<<<[<<<]+>>[[>>>+<<<-]>[>-<<->+]>-[--[>+<[+]]>--<]>+<<<[>+<-]>>>
11:36:20 <asiekierka> ~ps
11:36:20 <bsmnt_bot> 0: 'self.handle_callback(message, m, i)', 0.00 seconds
11:36:47 <asiekierka> ~bf+++[>+++++<-]>[>+>+++>+>++>+++++>++<[++<]>---]>->-.[>++>+<<--]>--.--.+.>
11:36:48 <asiekierka> >>++.<<.<------.+.+++++.>>-.<++++.<--.>>>.<<---.<.-->-.>+.[+++++.---<]>>
11:36:48 <asiekierka> [.--->]<<.<+.++.++>+++[.<]<.
11:36:59 <asiekierka> :(
11:37:12 <fizzie> Was your program more than 512 characters? IRC lines are limited to about that size, so it might have gotten cut off. There was an error message on #esoteric-blah.
11:37:20 <asiekierka> nope
11:37:28 <fizzie> And for the second one, there needs to be a space after ~bf, and everything on one line.
11:38:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, does it prevent infinite loops in any way?
11:38:43 <asiekierka> Hey
11:38:47 <asiekierka> bsmnt_bot was talking by himself
11:38:48 <fizzie> Why do you keep asking me stuff like that, it's not my bot. But yes, I think there's some sort of "kill the thread if this timer expires" thing.
11:38:49 <asiekierka> in #esoteric-blah
11:39:09 <asiekierka> He's intelligent
11:40:09 <AnMaster> ~bf ++++++++++>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.<.>]
11:40:14 <AnMaster> hm?
11:40:20 <asiekierka> Check #esoteric-blah
11:40:31 <asiekierka> ~ps
11:40:37 <asiekierka> ~ps
11:40:38 <AnMaster> I may have locked it up
11:40:50 <AnMaster> it should print 1\n1\n1\n
11:40:57 <AnMaster> and so on
11:41:08 <asiekierka> ~kill bf
11:41:08 <Slereah_> You people should be ashamed.
11:41:09 <AnMaster> unless I mixed up , and .
11:41:20 <Slereah_> GLaDOS references?
11:41:21 <AnMaster> . is output in bf rigjt?
11:41:24 <AnMaster> right*
11:41:25 <Slereah_> Yes
11:41:26 <asiekierka> yyes
11:41:37 <AnMaster> <Slereah_> GLaDOS references? <-- what?
11:41:41 <AnMaster> what is that?
11:41:47 <Slereah_> <bsmnt_bot> Hello? 2+2 is... *static* 10. IN BASE FOUR IM FINE
11:41:47 <asiekierka> #esoteric-blah
11:42:12 <AnMaster> anyway what cause those weird messages over there
11:42:17 <AnMaster> and have I locked it up?
11:42:27 <Slereah_> You're not a doctor, you're not even a full time employee!
11:42:36 <asiekierka> I don't know and yes you did.
11:42:45 <AnMaster> well it should time out stuff
11:42:59 <AnMaster> irc can't be considered a trusted environment
11:43:55 <fizzie> I don't think that came as news to anyone. And I really did think it had a time limit for processes, but can't be sure, of course.
11:45:18 <fizzie> On the other hand, I think breaking bsmnt_bot used to be almost a hobby of the channel.
11:45:27 <AnMaster> heh
11:45:35 <AnMaster> well I don't plan to break it again
11:45:39 <AnMaster> once is enough for me
11:47:13 <asiekierka> :P
11:49:27 <asiekierka> What BF program shall i run?
11:49:37 <asiekierka> on myself
11:49:49 <asiekierka> Oh wait
11:49:56 <AnMaster> ?
11:49:57 <asiekierka> i will implement BF functionality shortly
11:50:02 <asiekierka> on myself :D
11:50:42 <fizzie> But that's too bad; I have a nice BCT interpreter in ~exec-able form waiting.
11:50:44 <asiekierka> or not
11:50:55 <fizzie> optbot; You're a bot too... could you somehow revive that bsmnt_bot?
11:50:55 <optbot> fizzie: what was that!
11:51:31 <fizzie> optbot; That's a "no", then?
11:51:32 <optbot> fizzie: foo
11:51:55 -!- dbc has quit ("Seeeeeya").
11:52:17 -!- dbc has joined.
11:52:35 -!- Judofyr has joined.
11:53:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
11:53:57 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:55:28 <asiekierka> Oh no, you killed bsmnt_bot! You idiot!
11:56:45 <AnMaster> probably failed to respond to ping as well
11:56:47 <AnMaster> hm
11:58:04 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:58:28 <fizzie> Might be some unrelated network trouble, too, though.
11:59:29 <AnMaster> could be
12:05:51 -!- LinuS has joined.
12:08:11 -!- asiekierka has quit.
12:09:04 <LinuS> so, who won yesterday, psygnisfive?
12:09:07 <LinuS> (hello btw)
12:32:33 -!- Kevin`_ has joined.
12:32:49 <Kevin`_> is anyone in here DOSing me by chance? would make it easier to track down =p
12:33:02 <LinuS> lol
12:33:27 <Kevin`_> (me or bsmntbombdood+spelling)
12:34:23 <AnMaster> Kevin`_, oh your bot crashed btw
12:34:30 <Kevin`_> yeah, no shit
12:34:42 <AnMaster> it fails to abort on infinite loop
12:34:44 <AnMaster> :P
12:34:47 <Kevin`_> eh?
12:34:49 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ~bf ++++++++++>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.<.>]
12:35:01 <AnMaster> if you are bsmntbombdood
12:35:05 <AnMaster> Kevin`_, ^
12:35:10 <Kevin`_> no, i'm his sysadmin
12:35:18 <Kevin`_> who is pissed at someone he can't find
12:35:23 <LinuS> i've found a way to let the ircepl bot take something in input, by +b, but is there anyone that can set bans in this channel?
12:35:35 <AnMaster> Kevin`_, well I assume that loop would eat resources
12:35:40 <AnMaster> so I guess that can make it slow
12:35:50 <AnMaster> I'd kill the bsmnt_bot process
12:35:59 <AnMaster> and make it time out on infinite program
12:36:00 <LinuS> poor process :(
12:36:16 <AnMaster> Kevin`_, say 20 seconds or whatever
12:36:29 <Kevin`_> AnMaster: haven't noticed any problems from that. windows xp idling uses more resources then that computer on average
12:36:43 <AnMaster> anyway it doesn't run on same address it seems
12:36:46 <AnMaster> * [bsmnt_bot] (n=bsmnt@router.kwzs.be): bsmntbombdood bot
12:36:48 <AnMaster> * [bsmntbombdood] (n=gavin@97-118-114-214.hlrn.qwest.net): gavin
12:36:55 * AnMaster shrugs
12:37:36 <AnMaster> Kevin`_, and as far as I know, no one here is DDoSing, but who knows
12:37:58 <AnMaster> I *do* know bsmntbombdood have a tendency to make enemies in random other channels
12:38:03 <AnMaster> don't think he ever did that here
12:38:20 <AnMaster> and it was several months ago I saw it happen last
12:39:11 <Kevin`_> right now i'm looking over all the traffic from that computer in the last day for clues. found a bot from vigilante that i'll probably stop, but it didn't seem to be DOING anything
12:39:20 <AnMaster> Kevin`_, so what do you mean "his sysadmin"
12:39:26 <AnMaster> parent?
12:39:55 <Kevin`_> the shell he's using is running on my physical hardware
12:40:01 <AnMaster> ah
12:40:12 <AnMaster> Kevin`_, you said windows?
12:40:13 <AnMaster> ??
12:40:22 <AnMaster> and shell?
12:40:23 <AnMaster> wtf
12:40:28 <fizzie> What was that about bans on this channel? What were those needed for?
12:40:34 <Kevin`_> AnMaster: virtualization ftw.
12:40:41 <AnMaster> Kevin`_, just windows ewww
12:40:49 <AnMaster> I hope the host runs Linux or *BSD then
12:40:57 <Kevin`_> host is indeed linux :)
12:41:09 <AnMaster> Kevin`_, anyway bsmntbombdood timed out some time ago
12:41:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | #concatenative is n ot empty!.
12:41:50 -!- Kevin` has joined.
12:41:53 <LinuS> fizzie
12:41:56 <LinuS> controlling the IRCEPL bot
12:41:59 <AnMaster> Kevin`_, btw his host didn't loop like it came from a shell
12:42:02 <LinuS> since that's the only input he can read
12:42:03 <AnMaster> it looked like cable or dsl
12:42:16 <LinuS> fizzie: http://rafb.net/p/Zrn36t47.html
12:42:31 <Kevin`> AnMaster: loop?
12:43:21 <Kevin`> AnMaster: but yes, I don't have an oc3 line ;)
12:45:03 <AnMaster> oc3?
12:45:24 <AnMaster> Kevin`, as for the loop, I think it runs on tusho's server
12:45:37 <AnMaster> a esolang interpreting irc bot
12:45:43 <Kevin`_> what's the hostname it comes from
12:45:49 <AnMaster> router.kwzs.be
12:45:52 <AnMaster> as I said above
12:46:04 <Kevin`_> yeah, that's mine
12:46:07 <AnMaster> ah well
12:46:10 <Kevin`_> the system it's on is a mess though
12:46:18 <Kevin`_> (the vm, not the host)
12:46:35 <AnMaster> Kevin`, well the process in question is probably in a busy loop printing a\na\na\n....
12:46:50 <AnMaster> Kevin`, a python process
12:47:01 <fizzie> LinuS; Oh. Well, I can set +b here, but I don't think this channel is very good for running that sort of thing. (Freenode has a reasonably small limit of bans/channel, anyway.)
12:47:04 <AnMaster> if you could kill and restart that :)
12:47:15 <Kevin`_>  4719 pts/3    Ss     0:00 -/bin/bash
12:47:15 <Kevin`_>  4730 pts/3    S+     0:00  \_ xemacs ircbot.py
12:47:17 <Kevin`_> yap
12:47:26 <AnMaster> Kevin`, err that is an editor
12:47:37 <Kevin`_> oh. dug
12:47:39 <AnMaster> not the process
12:47:39 <Kevin`_> h*
12:47:45 <LinuS> fizzie: i see, just tought it would be nice to have him there and not in another channel
12:47:50 <AnMaster> probably python ircbot.py
12:47:50 <Kevin`_> he was probably fixing it when he got disconnected then
12:47:52 <Kevin`_> it's not running
12:47:55 <AnMaster> Kevin`, ah
12:48:01 <AnMaster> that explains it
12:48:20 <AnMaster> xemacs heh
12:48:24 <AnMaster> on a shell
12:48:29 <AnMaster> I would use non-X emacs
12:48:46 <fizzie> XEmacs does not imply X11.
12:48:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, it doesn't?
12:49:35 <fizzie> XEmacs is just a branch of GNU Emacs. It has both console and GUI frontends.
12:49:46 <AnMaster> fork
12:49:47 <AnMaster> not branch
12:49:51 <fizzie> Fork, yes.
12:50:32 <AnMaster> Kevin`, anyway for ddos, why not try to trace the ips or whatever?
12:50:42 <Kevin`_> AnMaster: last time, the ips were spoofed
12:50:49 <AnMaster> well true they probably are
12:51:09 <Kevin`_> definitely in this case as some were non-routable
12:54:48 -!- AnMaster_ has joined.
12:56:08 -!- AnMaster has quit (Nick collision from services.).
12:56:10 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster.
12:56:37 <AnMaster> blergh
12:56:39 <AnMaster> <Kevin`_> AnMaster: last time, the ips were spoofed
12:56:41 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> well true they probably are
12:56:45 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Kevin`, anyway you are interested in esoteric languages I guess? :)
12:56:47 <AnMaster> * Disconnected ().
12:56:47 -!- asiekierka has joined.
12:56:49 <AnMaster> did I miss something?
12:56:53 <asiekierka> :((
12:56:56 <asiekierka> no bsmnt-bot
12:57:04 <Kevin`_> 06:52 < AnMaster> well true they probably are
12:57:04 <Kevin`_> 06:52 < Kevin`_> definitely in this case as some were non-routable
12:57:39 <Kevin`_> I suppose I can start up his bot, it seems YOU like it rather then hate it :)
12:57:52 <asiekierka> yes i do
12:58:16 <asiekierka> Also, when he's on, come to #esoteric-blah
12:58:17 <asiekierka> please
12:58:23 <asiekierka> I found out he has artifical intelligence
12:58:29 <asiekierka> <asiekierka> bsmnt_bot testing. xD
12:58:30 <asiekierka> <bsmnt_bot> i hate you
12:58:30 <asiekierka> <asiekierka> :((
12:58:30 <asiekierka> <bsmnt_bot> Don't be so sad, i was just kidding.
12:59:36 <AnMaster> Kevin`, of course we hate it
12:59:41 <AnMaster> ;P
12:59:55 <AnMaster> or rather, of course we make no sense here :P
13:00:00 <AnMaster> yes I like it
13:00:04 <AnMaster> why would we hate it
13:00:37 <Kevin`_> well lets see what this does
13:00:44 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
13:00:50 <AnMaster> hm
13:00:57 <AnMaster> ~bs +.
13:01:13 <fizzie> It probably won't remember the brainfuck interpreter.
13:01:34 <AnMaster> ~bf ++++++[->++++++<]>.
13:01:41 <AnMaster> ah can you load it again?
13:01:45 <fizzie> Sure, just a sec.
13:01:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, does that need special access or?
13:02:06 <LinuS> does anyone has invented an esolang that can't output results and confuses/crypts them in the memory so they are really unacessible?
13:02:07 <LinuS> :P
13:02:15 <LinuS> have*
13:02:52 <AnMaster> LinuS, doesn't seem very original to me, unless there is some way to actually get correct output
13:03:01 <AnMaster> possibly by trying to output something else
13:03:15 <asiekierka> <bsmnt_bot> Don't be so sad, i was just kidding.
13:03:16 <asiekierka> oh wait
13:03:20 <asiekierka> wrong paste
13:03:33 <LinuS> what if output is encrypted and you have to bruteforce the key to get them?
13:03:36 <LinuS> :P
13:03:41 <AnMaster> ~exec self.bf3="def bfarg(x,y):\n p=y.group(2)\n a=y.group(3)+unichr(0)\n o=''\n p=p+'!'\n t=[0]*30000\n i=0\n l=0\n while p[i]!='!':\n  if p[i]=='[' and t[l]==0:\n   c=1\n   while c>0:\n    i=i+1\n    if p[i]=='[': c=c+1\n    if p[i]==']': c=c-1\n  if p[i]==']' and t[l]!=0:\n   c=1\n   while c>0:\n    i=i-1\n    if p[i]==']': c=c+1\n    if p[i]=='[': c=c-1\n"
13:03:42 <asiekierka> ~exec self.bf3="def bfarg(x,y):\n p=y.group(2)\n a=y.group(3)+unichr(0)\n o=''\n p=p+'!'\n t=[0]*30000\n i=0\n l=0\n while p[i]!='!':\n  if p[i]=='[' and t[l]==0:\n   c=1\n   while c>0:\n    i=i+1\n    if p[i]=='[': c=c+1\n    if p[i]==']': c=c-1\n  if p[i]==']' and t[l]!=0:\n   c=1\n   while c>0:\n    i=i-1\n    if p[i]==']': c=c+1\n    if p[i]=='[': c=c-1\n"
13:03:44 <asiekierka> :(
13:03:46 <LinuS> get it*
13:03:48 <AnMaster> ~exec self.bf4="  if p[i]=='+': t[l]=t[l]+1\n  if p[i]=='-': t[l]=t[l]-1\n  if p[i]=='<': l=l-1\n  if p[i]=='>': l=l+1\n  if p[i]=='.': o=o+unichr(t[l])\n  if p[i]==',':\n   t[l]=ord(a[0])\n   a=a[1:]\n  i=i+1\n sys.stdout(o)\nself.register_raw(r'\S+ PRIVMSG (\S+) :~bf ([^!]*)!?(.*)',bfarg)"
13:03:53 <AnMaster> ~exec exec(self.bf3+self.bf4)
13:04:07 <asiekierka> ~bf ++++++[->++++++<]>.
13:04:16 <asiekierka> hmm
13:04:30 <asiekierka> ~bf ++++++[->++++++<]>.
13:04:48 <fizzie> ~exec sys.stdout("are you there?")
13:04:50 <AnMaster> ~ps
13:04:51 <bsmnt_bot> None
13:04:54 <AnMaster> wait
13:04:55 <AnMaster> ~ps
13:04:55 <bsmnt_bot> None
13:04:57 <AnMaster> that worked
13:04:58 <asiekierka> ~ps
13:04:59 <bsmnt_bot> None
13:04:59 <AnMaster> nothing else did
13:05:03 <fizzie> "None" is an interesting response.
13:05:09 <asiekierka> No processes running :P
13:05:13 <AnMaster> aye
13:05:21 <asiekierka> also
13:05:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, so maybe exec is broken?
13:05:25 <asiekierka> someone get him to #esoteric-blah
13:05:33 <AnMaster> ~join #esoteric-blah
13:05:46 <AnMaster> nop
13:05:50 <fizzie> Maybe he configured off the ~exec thing. Who knows.
13:05:52 <AnMaster> ~help
13:05:54 <asiekierka> Kevin!
13:05:57 <Kevin`_> wut
13:06:09 <asiekierka> can you make bsmnt_bot go to #esoteric-blah
13:06:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, or "owner only"?
13:06:10 <asiekierka> blah blah
13:06:12 <AnMaster> err
13:06:20 <asiekierka> or anyone
13:06:28 <asiekierka> i think it only works in -blah
13:06:29 <Kevin`> dunno, you know how to use the console on it?
13:06:32 <Kevin`> I didn't write it
13:06:34 <AnMaster> hah
13:06:35 <AnMaster> hm
13:06:41 <asiekierka> no source
13:06:41 <AnMaster> thunderstorm
13:06:43 <asiekierka> so i do not
13:06:48 -!- AnMaster has quit ("thunderstorm").
13:06:51 <asiekierka> try "help
13:06:52 <asiekierka> "
13:07:28 <Kevin`> nop
13:08:05 <fizzie> Maybe it would be simplest to just wait for bsmntbombdood to fix it up. I think there was some talk about "exec privileges" at some point. It's been quite a while since the bot was last seriously used.
13:08:20 <asiekierka> ~ps
13:08:20 <bsmnt_bot> None
13:08:21 <asiekierka> ~ps
13:08:21 <bsmnt_bot> None
13:08:26 <asiekierka> ~help
13:08:37 <asiekierka> ~exec join #esoteric-blah
13:08:44 <asiekierka> ~exec sys.join #esoteric-blah
13:08:52 <asiekierka> ~exec sys.join("#esoteric-blah")
13:09:22 <Kevin`>         self.register_raw(
13:09:22 <Kevin`>             r"^:bsmntbombdood!\S*gavin@\S* PRIVMSG \S* :%sexec (.*)" % self.COMMAND_CHAR,
13:09:22 <fizzie> It would be ~exec self.raw("JOIN #esoteric-blah") but I really think the whole ~exec thing is non-operational right now.
13:09:25 <Kevin`>             self.do_exec)
13:09:49 <fizzie> Looks rather owner-only.
13:10:12 <fizzie> Or at least only-someone-who-bothers-setting-up-the-correct-nick-and-username.
13:12:35 <Kevin`> it's not a very long bot really. yay for irc libraries
13:13:09 <asiekierka> ~exec self.raw("JOIN #esoteric-blah")
13:13:18 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
13:13:20 <bsmntbombdood> ~exec self.raw("JOIN #esoteric-blah")
13:13:22 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to asiekierka.
13:13:26 <asiekierka> FAIL :(
13:13:28 <fizzie> You need to have the correct username, too.
13:13:32 <Kevin`> ident would have to be right too
13:13:40 <asiekierka> Ok
13:13:42 -!- asiekierka has quit.
13:14:09 <fizzie> I wouldn't bother doing that much work just to get that particular bot going.
13:14:37 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
13:17:13 -!- asiekierka has joined.
13:17:44 -!- asiekierka has left (?).
13:18:58 <Kevin`_> hmm
13:19:14 <Kevin`_> how do you change ident in irssi? it doesn't seem to be an option to /connect
13:19:16 -!- asiekierka has joined.
13:19:17 <asiekierka> Okay
13:19:19 <asiekierka> another try
13:19:26 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
13:19:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to asiekierka.
13:19:40 <asiekierka> HAHA
13:19:41 <asiekierka> IT WORKED
13:20:00 <fizzie> Kevin; /set user_name foo, if I recall correctly, but of course a working identd will override it.
13:20:46 <asiekierka> ~ps
13:20:47 <bsmnt_bot> None
13:20:49 <asiekierka> :((
13:20:58 <asiekierka> Kevin`, any other commands to use?
13:21:27 <asiekierka> also, wait, i think i know
13:21:30 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
13:21:53 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to asiekierka.
13:21:56 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:22:01 <Kevin`_> eep
13:22:01 <asiekierka> What?
13:22:10 <asiekierka> What hhappened?
13:22:50 <Kevin`_> bout what you'd expect:
13:22:57 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:23:06 <Kevin`_> http://pastebin.ca/1169630
13:23:21 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
13:23:37 -!- Judofyr has joined.
13:23:38 <asiekierka> hmm
13:23:41 <asiekierka> lemme retry that
13:23:50 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
13:23:56 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to asiekierka.
13:23:58 <asiekierka> Whew
13:24:46 <asiekierka> ~ps
13:24:47 <bsmnt_bot> None
13:25:22 <Kevin`_> http://kwzs.be/~kevin/ircbot.txt - looked over it for passwords, but if I missed something, keep quiet ;)
13:26:19 <asiekierka> you did not :)
13:26:34 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
13:26:40 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to asiekierka.
13:26:49 <asiekierka> ~ps
13:26:50 <bsmnt_bot> None
13:27:23 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
13:27:31 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to asiekierka.
13:27:32 <Kevin`_> how do you format a shell command with python so it'll return the output nicely?
13:28:09 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
13:28:17 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to asiekierka.
13:28:47 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
13:29:20 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:29:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to asiekierka.
13:29:29 <asiekierka> NOT AGAIN
13:29:43 <fizzie> Well, of course it will do the same thing if you give it the same commands.
13:30:08 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
13:30:13 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
13:30:21 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to asiekierka.
13:30:52 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
13:31:30 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to asiekierka.
13:32:06 <bsmnt_bot> $
13:32:06 <bsmnt_bot> $
13:32:10 <asiekierka> YAYZ
13:32:13 <asiekierka> IT WORKED
13:32:14 <asiekierka> but wait
13:32:19 <asiekierka> why is bsmnt_bot outputting double
13:32:52 <fizzie> No idea. It's a bit confused bot.
13:33:13 <fizzie> optbot; You are a more lucid thinker, right?
13:33:14 <optbot> fizzie: hello world!
13:33:31 <bsmnt_bot> Remember when asie was like "you guys crashed bsmnt_bot" and i was like "..." and you were like "oh shut up"
13:33:31 <bsmnt_bot> Remember when asie was like "you guys crashed bsmnt_bot" and i was like "..." and you were like "oh shut up"
13:34:13 <fizzie> I hear an echo.
13:34:32 <bsmnt_bot> I'm broken. :(
13:34:33 <bsmnt_bot> I'm broken. :(
13:36:29 <bsmnt_bot> Yayz! I'm repaired!
13:36:56 <bsmnt_bot> Sleep mode activated.
13:37:19 <bsmnt_bot> BCT installation in proggressss...
13:38:55 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:39:06 <asiekierka> Oh my...
13:39:52 -!- bsmnt_bot has joined.
13:40:09 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
13:40:31 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to asiekierka.
13:40:57 <bsmnt_bot> Hello!
13:43:12 <bsmnt_bot> Woohoo! I got BCT! To use it, type !bct code!input
13:43:23 <asiekierka> !bct 1010100111101010101010!0101010101
13:43:38 <fizzie> ~bct 1110101101110000!10
13:43:39 <bsmnt_bot> del.seq. 10100110
13:43:43 <asiekierka> Woo.
13:43:48 <fizzie> Heh, it seems to have both the handlers.
13:43:53 <fizzie> So it speaks to both channels now.
13:44:01 <asiekierka> woo.
13:44:42 <asiekierka> [>+] This program is a very long delayer. :P
13:45:11 <asiekierka> if an implementation has 30000 cells and wraps around, it'll take ~7650001 cycles i think
13:45:15 <asiekierka> oh wait
13:45:18 <asiekierka> multiply that by 2
13:45:27 <fizzie> I think this past hour has been one of the most useless ones I've had, really.
13:45:44 <asiekierka> fizzie: any other interp's?
13:46:15 <fizzie> Don't have any ready right now. The Unlambda one would need some reformatting.
13:46:30 <asiekierka> I will look for others
13:46:57 <fizzie> I'd do Befunge, but befunge programs, except the traditional 025*"!olleh">:#,_@ one, are so two-dimensional.
13:47:56 <asiekierka> What esolangs do you like
13:48:19 <asiekierka> except BF and BCT
13:48:29 <asiekierka> and except befuuunge
13:48:45 <fizzie> Piet, but that's even worse for IRC. Maybe by sending Piet programs as DCC file transfers...
13:49:25 <asiekierka> or HTTP
13:49:27 <asiekierka> (wget)
13:49:37 <asiekierka> Anything else?
13:49:51 <fizzie> Thue, maybe. Although I haven't written anything in it.
13:51:14 <asiekierka> There's a BCT interpreter in BF and there's a BF interpreter in Thue.
13:51:16 <asiekierka> xD
13:52:07 <fizzie> Kipple seemed nice, too. And HQ9+ would be easily implementable, even though it's a bit boring to program in, to say the least.
13:52:30 <asiekierka> I must make a Deadfish interpreter in Brainf**k
13:53:03 <asiekierka> Deadfish would be very easy but a bit boring
13:54:30 <asiekierka> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/CHIQRSX9_Plus
13:54:32 <asiekierka> This would be cool
14:04:19 <asiekierka> also
14:04:20 <asiekierka> what about http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/SCAB_computer
14:05:58 -!- tusho has joined.
14:06:47 <tusho> optbot!
14:06:47 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | do you want to see my register union?.
14:06:53 -!- AnMaster has joined.
14:08:34 <fizzie> Why does "do you want to see my register union?" sound so dirty?
14:08:55 <tusho> psygnisfive & dogface: that experiment was ridiculous
14:09:09 <tusho> obviously you have to know  the tricks
14:09:20 <tusho> that's the whole point
14:09:22 <tusho> that he has a way
14:09:56 <tusho> so the AI would have to be an expert in transhuman AIs, obviously
14:10:51 <tusho> i think I might email him the logs, though, he'd get a chucke out of psygnisfive saying that since one random person on irc can't convince him, evidently it's impossible to in general
14:11:10 <tusho> 17:29:56 <dogface_> Oh, the glorious fallacy.
14:11:11 <tusho> totally
14:11:47 <tusho> 17:53:40 <psygnisfive> we've been playing exactly the correct game
14:11:48 <tusho> no.
14:11:58 <tusho> you're not meant to play it with some random person who doesn't know much about transhuman ai
14:12:10 <tusho> the whole point is that with lots of knowledge of transhuman AIs, there's a trick to it
14:13:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, haha
14:13:36 <AnMaster> and hi tusho
14:13:51 <tusho> 02:01:44 <fizzie> optbot is much nicer to use; you can just talk to (h(im|er)|it).
14:13:52 <optbot> tusho: I see :P
14:13:53 <tusho> totally :D
14:17:05 -!- bsmnt_bot has changed nick to pretty_pretty_po.
14:17:12 -!- pretty_pretty_po has changed nick to a_pony_yay.
14:17:17 <tusho> say hi to a_pony_yay
14:17:39 <tusho> 03:38:48 <fizzie> Why do you keep asking me stuff like that, it's not my bot. But yes, I think there's some sort of "kill the thread if this timer expires" thing.
14:17:49 <tusho> fizzie: AnMaster asks people questions about things they know very little of all the time
14:17:53 <tusho> as long as you pointed it out to him
14:18:28 <AnMaster> tusho, What is the distance to the sun in km?
14:18:29 * AnMaster runs
14:18:35 <tusho> AnMaster: 4.7
14:18:52 <AnMaster> tusho, nah
14:18:55 <AnMaster> not reasonable
14:18:56 <a_pony_yay> I am a pretty pretty pony.
14:19:56 <asiekierka> :(
14:20:21 <tusho> 04:39:20 <AnMaster> Kevin`_, so what do you mean "his sysadmin"
14:20:21 <tusho> 04:39:26 <AnMaster> parent?
14:20:22 <tusho> lol
14:23:32 -!- a_pony_yay has changed nick to asiebot001.
14:23:36 -!- asiebot001 has changed nick to bsmnt_bot.
14:24:44 <tusho> <AnMaster> Kevin`, anyway you are interested in esoteric languages I guess? :)
14:24:52 <tusho> he came here because bsmntbombdood wanted bsmnt_bot up
14:24:53 <tusho> since I asked for it...
14:25:08 <bsmnt_bot> I'm dumb.
14:25:52 <bsmnt_bot> I'm going to rule the world.
14:26:05 <bsmnt_bot> Also, can anyone test this piece of BF code: +[]
14:26:17 <tusho> someone ignore bsmnt_bot
14:26:19 <tusho> it's asiekierka again
14:26:25 <asiekierka> Okay
14:26:26 <asiekierka> i'll stop.
14:26:41 <bsmnt_bot> It wasn't him! Really!
14:27:15 <tusho> har har
14:27:39 <bsmnt_bot> tusho: What?
14:27:47 <tusho> asiekierka: stop it
14:27:50 <tusho> it was funny ... once
14:28:10 <bsmnt_bot> I'm not asiekierka.
14:28:14 <bsmnt_bot> I'm bsmnt_bot!
14:28:15 <fizzie> It wasn't that much more fun with the pony stuff, you know.
14:28:48 <bsmnt_bot> Anyway, I'll stop if i'll have the ability to stab tusho. In the face.
14:28:53 <tusho> fizzie: that involved a nick change, though
14:28:56 <tusho> which hadn't been done before
14:29:01 <tusho> (I did the pony stuff.)
14:29:09 <tusho> also it was only one line
14:29:09 <tusho> [14:18:58] <a_pony_yay> I am a pretty pretty pony.
14:29:32 <bsmnt_bot> I HATE PONIES!!! RAMPAGE!!! *kills the pony*
14:29:56 <tusho> asiekierka, if you do not stop, I'll use ~exec to make self.raw ignore you :|
14:30:33 <bsmnt_bot> Okay. Disabling asiekierka in three, two, *static*
14:30:47 <asiekierka> Okay, i'll stop
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14:35:46 -!- asie_bot has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:36:01 -!- asie_bot has joined.
14:40:45 <fizzie> optbot; Should you play therapist for bsmnt_bot? He seems a bit messed up in the head.
14:40:45 <optbot> fizzie: who?
14:41:16 <fizzie> optbot; bsmnt_bot. You know, the tall, quiet guy.
14:41:17 <optbot> fizzie: If the HD works, that is.
14:41:19 -!- asie_bot has changed nick to asiekierka.
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14:48:00 -!- hullap has left (?).
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14:55:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, about topic
14:55:35 <AnMaster> I made a register union once
14:55:38 <AnMaster> it may be that one
14:56:21 <AnMaster> it was for a virtual machine
14:56:24 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/sZbWNc79.html
14:56:27 <fizzie> It was yours, yes. And you were showing it to tusho.
14:56:36 <tusho> I'm too young for that!
14:56:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, see the link I pasted
14:56:40 <AnMaster> haha
14:56:40 <tusho> It was psychologically damaging.
14:56:53 <tusho> I have a psychologist now, but I'm scarred for life
14:56:57 <fizzie> Yes, you really shouldn't walk around with your register union showing.
14:56:59 <tusho> People like AnMaster should be put in jail.
14:57:00 <asiekierka> 25 minutes to download qemu. Yay.
14:57:09 <AnMaster> hahah
14:57:18 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway it is just a C union
14:57:26 <tusho> Yeah, sure.
14:57:28 <tusho> JUST.
14:57:38 <asiekierka> oh no
14:57:40 <AnMaster> haven't you coded C before?
14:57:41 <Kevin`_> asiekierka: I believe you need the svn version for curses VGA support
14:57:44 <asiekierka> i'm too old to see that rafb link
14:57:49 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:57:49 <asiekierka> i use only textmode
14:57:58 <AnMaster> err
14:58:00 <AnMaster> what?
14:58:19 <asiekierka> I will only use textmode. Or by VGA you mean "textmode&graphics vga"
14:58:37 <asiekierka> You do know it's going to take a hour
14:58:51 <Kevin`_> asiekierka: I mean, in order to get VGA output in the form of text instead of graphics, you need the latest version
14:58:51 <asiekierka> Except if someone goes and strips the link with the binary to the bare essentials
14:58:59 <asiekierka> http://www1.interq.or.jp/~t-takeda/qemu/qemu-20080810-windows.zip
14:59:02 <asiekierka> I can't download it.
14:59:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: opinion, please
14:59:09 <Deewiant> y as a pick instruction
14:59:11 <asiekierka> At least not in less than a hour.
14:59:12 <fizzie> My Debian-package-installed qemu has a -curses flag, and I don't think it's a svn version.
14:59:22 <Kevin`_> fizzie: oh, ok.
14:59:24 <Kevin`_> asiekierka: ^
14:59:33 <Kevin`_> fizzie: try it :)
14:59:37 <asiekierka> But i can only download 0.90 anyway in half a hour
14:59:50 <asiekierka> and 0.91 should be better, but it'll take me 1 hour 30 minutes
14:59:55 <asiekierka> So i choose svn
14:59:56 <tusho> asiekierka you don't have anywhere near enough bandwidth for this :3
15:00:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, eh?
15:00:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: if the stack is now [1,2,3,4,<number of cells y pushes + 3>] and we do y, the stack should be [1,2,3,4,2] and not [1,2], or?
15:00:03 <fizzie> Hmm, I might have some dos boot floppy images somewhere. Could be the nostalgickity to see it.
15:00:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is that already
15:00:12 <asiekierka> I just want to test it
15:00:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wait what?
15:00:20 <asiekierka> Also, i will have bandwidth back
15:00:22 <asiekierka> August 20th
15:00:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what does the specs say
15:00:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think the specs say that it should be [1,2,3,4,2] but all interpreters and Mycology seem to think it's [1,2] ;-)
15:01:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err, I don't follow what you are talking about
15:01:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the stack is now [1,2,3,4,<number of cells y pushes + 3>], yes?
15:01:38 <AnMaster> sure
15:01:40 <AnMaster> why +3?
15:01:48 <Deewiant> so that we'd get the 2
15:01:53 <fizzie> Eeee-hehehe, the curses output is seriously funky. Although the disk seemed to be a dos 6.22 install disk and complained about my computer not having a hard drive.
15:01:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah yes
15:01:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so now we hit y
15:02:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what should the stack be
15:02:09 <AnMaster> yes I see what you are saying
15:02:10 <AnMaster> hm
15:02:56 <Deewiant> a finnish guy implemented an interpreter in haskell and e-mailed me about it and I think he's right and Mycology is wrong :-)
15:03:09 <AnMaster> maybe
15:03:10 <AnMaster> not sure
15:03:17 <AnMaster> If y is given a positive argument, all these cells are pushed onto the stack as if the argument was non-positive. However, y then goes on to copy the argumentth stack cell (counting from the top) into a temporary location, subsequently removing all the cells it pushed onto the stack. It then pushes the temporary cell onto the stack. For example, 3y will act as if only the handprint was pushed onto the
15:03:17 <AnMaster>  stack.
15:03:23 <AnMaster> An interesting side-effect of this behaviour is that if y is given an argument that exceeds the number of cells it pushes onto the stack, it can act as a 'pick' instruction on data that was on the stack before y was even executed.
15:03:26 <AnMaster> hm...
15:03:27 <Deewiant> yeah
15:03:27 <Deewiant> so
15:03:34 <Deewiant> y pushes N cells
15:03:44 <Deewiant> then it grabs cell N+3 which is the 2
15:03:52 <Deewiant> then it pops N cells
15:03:57 <Deewiant> (not N+3!)
15:03:59 <Deewiant> and pushes the 2
15:04:02 <AnMaster> ah....
15:04:04 <Deewiant> so it should be [1,2,3,4,2], no?
15:04:12 <AnMaster> well if that is what the specs say
15:04:24 <Deewiant> well what do you think it says
15:04:27 <Deewiant> that's what I think it says
15:04:27 <AnMaster> but try catseye diagnosis tools after you change it
15:04:30 <AnMaster> to be sure
15:04:34 <AnMaster> see if it complains
15:04:34 <Deewiant> did it test that?
15:04:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no idea
15:04:40 <AnMaster> maybe
15:05:19 <AnMaster> check if it does
15:06:20 <Kevin`_> asiekierka: http://kwzs.be/~kevin/Screenshot-1.png - ms-dos over ssh, yay :)
15:06:35 <AnMaster> err
15:06:36 <AnMaster> wtf
15:09:14 -!- tusho has changed nick to ehird`.
15:09:27 -!- ehird` has changed nick to tusho.
15:10:41 -!- tusho has quit ("Bye!").
15:10:56 -!- tusho has joined.
15:21:40 <tusho> asiekierka: I made a comic too. http://img.skitch.com/20080813-jmxd865qbiw2w9fi1juc94hadn.png
15:23:32 <tusho> fizzie: Wrong!
15:24:47 <asiekierka> i made a comic on PAPER
15:25:12 <asiekierka> oh wait
15:25:13 <asiekierka> you too i think
15:25:49 <AnMaster> tusho, wrong shape
15:25:56 <asiekierka> no wait, you didn't
15:25:59 <tusho> AnMaster: incorrect
15:26:03 <tusho> that is the exact shape of norway
15:26:05 <tusho> fuck norway
15:26:15 <AnMaster> err no
15:26:21 <tusho> AnMaster: No. You are wrong.
15:26:29 <tusho> Jeez, you don't even know what Norway looks like.
15:26:32 <tusho> You should kill yourself or something.
15:26:35 <tusho> That's trivial knowledge.
15:26:38 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:EUR_location_NOR.PNG
15:26:40 <AnMaster> tusho, ^
15:26:43 <tusho> Everyone knows it looks exactly like I done drawn it.
15:26:50 <tusho> AnMaster: That was created by the commies, dude.
15:26:52 <tusho> The commies!
15:27:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I think [1,2,3,4,2] is right yes
15:27:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, talk to MikeReily too about it
15:27:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and I need to clarify it in 108
15:28:24 <Deewiant> well TBH I don't think there's much to clarify, I don't see how I could have gotten it wrong :-P
15:29:35 <AnMaster> I shall update cfunge for that soonish
15:29:40 <AnMaster> so much to do :/
15:30:34 <asiekierka> ok
15:30:38 <asiekierka> uping my first ever comic
15:30:39 <asiekierka> s
15:30:41 <asiekierka> two.
15:30:44 <asiekierka> 2-in-1
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15:30:55 <asiekierka> lq JPG so i can upload it in less than a minute
15:31:08 <asiekierka> also, if you'll start talking, i used real paper.
15:31:27 <asiekierka> Also
15:31:35 <asiekierka> i found out i misspelled "data" as "dota" in the first comic
15:31:43 <asiekierka> ftp://asiekierka.boot-land.net/asiekierka.boot-land.net/asiecomic1&2_lq.jpg
15:31:45 <asiekierka> here you go
15:31:58 <AnMaster> asiekierka, asks for username/password
15:32:04 <fizzie> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/asiecomic1&2_lq.jpg
15:32:12 <asiekierka> oh
15:32:13 <asiekierka> right
15:32:14 <asiekierka> forgot
15:32:22 <asiekierka> thx, fizzie
15:32:49 <AnMaster> asiekierka, stop copying xkcd ;P
15:32:51 <asiekierka> If they'll be good, i'll upload a HQ version
15:33:10 <asiekierka> Well, okay
15:33:11 <AnMaster> actually I can't see what the second one is
15:33:12 <asiekierka> you mean
15:33:19 <AnMaster> "my hobby"
15:33:24 <asiekierka> i know
15:33:25 <asiekierka> IdeaWorld, where BF is real
15:33:28 <asiekierka> Basically
15:33:31 <asiekierka> i finish a program +[]
15:33:33 <asiekierka> then i run it
15:33:36 <asiekierka> everything crashes
15:33:38 <asiekierka> and...
15:33:50 <AnMaster> I can't see what the person say in the last box
15:33:59 <AnMaster> about cyclic tags
15:34:00 <asiekierka> the person?
15:34:04 <asiekierka> oh
15:34:08 <asiekierka> you mean, the one with the code?
15:34:10 <AnMaster> bbl food
15:34:21 <asiekierka> It's just random scribbling
15:34:23 <asiekierka> but i wrote
15:34:24 <asiekierka> 25 steps so far
15:34:26 <asiekierka> just for kicks
15:34:48 <asiekierka> Ok, off to making comic #3 and #4
15:34:54 <asiekierka> oh well
15:34:59 <asiekierka> i'll just make random comics now
15:35:01 <asiekierka> describing my feelings
15:35:03 <asiekierka> `till 6 PM
15:35:05 <asiekierka> i mean
15:35:09 <RodgerTheGreat> asiekierka: you're beating randall so far. Keep it up.
15:35:09 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080813-957eaanjn4kpi78psagx2sg9e.png another comic
15:35:10 <asiekierka> for hour and a half
15:35:17 <asiekierka> Then i'll scan them all
15:35:25 <RodgerTheGreat> might help to draw them larger, though
15:35:30 <asiekierka> except an xkc--- wait, i mean an xkcd--- i mean x..D :P
15:35:38 <asiekierka> Nope, i could just make them larger size
15:35:43 <asiekierka> i could rescan them
15:35:49 <asiekierka> but i have dialup-like speed
15:35:50 <asiekierka> So for that
15:35:54 <asiekierka> you must wait `till the 20th!
15:36:00 <asiekierka> So, bye
15:36:02 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie[draw].
15:36:03 <asie[draw]> also
15:36:05 <asie[draw]> who's randall
15:36:10 <asie[draw]> or what
15:36:11 <tusho> randall munroe
15:36:12 <tusho> xkcd
15:36:14 <asie[draw]> oh
15:36:17 <asie[draw]> wait, i'm beating xkcd
15:36:27 <RodgerTheGreat> not very hard of late
15:36:27 <asie[draw]> not really, right
15:36:43 <asie[draw]> Ok
15:36:47 <asie[draw]> so off to drawing more feelings of mine
15:36:48 <asie[draw]> bye
15:39:05 <AnMaster> <RodgerTheGreat> asiekierka: you're beating randall so far. Keep it up.
15:39:06 <AnMaster> nah
15:39:10 <AnMaster> I think xkcd is better
15:41:17 <AnMaster> though xkcd today was just odd
15:41:37 <AnMaster> http://xkcd.com/461/ <-- think that one was quite funny though
15:42:59 <tusho> i have made another comic
15:43:01 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080813-ps54n2wsfwy3dd28uq9tfgp5ij.png
15:43:09 <AnMaster> tusho, yours are worse than explosm even
15:43:16 <tusho> AnMaster: I am a true artist.
15:43:29 <tusho> Who are you to critique?
15:43:33 <tusho> You don't know the true shape of Norway.
15:43:37 <AnMaster> I do
15:43:39 <AnMaster> you don't
15:43:42 <tusho> WRONG
15:43:44 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I don't think it's very Norway-shaped.
15:43:49 <tusho> You should hang yourself because YOU DON'T KNOW THE TRUE SHAPE OF NORWAY
15:43:49 <AnMaster> see?
15:43:55 <tusho> YOU IDIOT
15:43:57 <tusho> FIZZIE IS A COMMUNIST
15:44:06 <tusho> YOU ARE BEING SUCKED INTO HIS LIES!
15:44:07 <AnMaster> stop trolling
15:44:18 <tusho> Oh, oh, it's trolling is it? I bet YOU are a communist!
15:44:18 * AnMaster puts tusho on mental ignore for half an hour
15:44:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: new mycology up
15:44:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nice
15:45:57 <asie[draw]> hmm...
15:46:22 <asie[draw]> I wonder if doing something original, like "my nightjob" is better than copycating xkcd with my hobby
15:47:44 <asie[draw]> hello?
15:49:45 <RodgerTheGreat> asie[draw]: probably
15:49:45 -!- asie[draw] has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:50:02 <RodgerTheGreat> cool, I apparently have a new superpower
15:50:10 <RodgerTheGreat> this is going to be awesome
15:50:15 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: what do you think about my three comics
15:50:17 <tusho> aren't they amazing?
15:50:31 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080813-jmxd865qbiw2w9fi1juc94hadn.png, http://img.skitch.com/20080813-957eaanjn4kpi78psagx2sg9e.png and http://img.skitch.com/20080813-957eaanjn4kpi78psagx2sg9e.png
15:50:36 <tusho> er
15:50:46 <tusho> last one should be
15:50:46 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080813-ps54n2wsfwy3dd28uq9tfgp5ij.png
15:50:51 -!- MikeRiley has joined.
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15:51:20 <asie[draw]> Hi
15:51:23 <tusho> hi asie[draw]
15:51:24 <asie[draw]> drawing the fourth comic
15:51:32 <tusho> what do you think about my comics :P
15:51:32 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, hi, seems y was wrong in mycology
15:51:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I fixed my y now
15:51:39 <AnMaster> also removed PNTR
15:51:40 <MikeRiley> what was wrong with it???
15:51:41 <asie[draw]> And introducing a new running series
15:51:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I think you have a poor definition of a "comic". Your attempts display little effort or skill, are incomprehensible and lack any of the defining features of something that could qualify as a comic.
15:51:47 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, when acting as pick
15:51:53 <AnMaster> mycology and ccbi did it wrong
15:51:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant have to explain
15:51:59 <asie[draw]> :(
15:52:02 <AnMaster> I have to leave shortly
15:52:03 <AnMaster> Aikido
15:52:06 <RodgerTheGreat> And if they're funny they are in such a twisted and inaccessible fashion that they can hardly considered as such
15:52:06 <MikeRiley> hmmmmmm wonder if mine is broken then too...
15:52:09 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: Yeah, I know. After all, I am an idiot. :D
15:52:16 <RodgerTheGreat> asie[draw]: I'm talking about tusho's stuff
15:52:16 <asie[draw]> But they describe my feelings
15:52:19 <asie[draw]> Oh
15:52:21 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, yeah but for me it was a one line change
15:52:24 <tusho> Actually i made them because they make me laugh. And at least 3 other people, apparently
15:52:24 <asie[draw]> What about mine?
15:52:32 <MikeRiley> what is different about it???
15:52:35 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: if the stack is now [1,2,3,4,<number of cells y pushes + 3>] and we do y, the stack should be [1,2,3,4,2] and not [1,2], or?
15:52:43 <asie[draw]> Rodger? what about mine then?
15:52:43 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think the specs say that it should be [1,2,3,4,2] but all interpreters and Mycology seem to think it's [1,2] ;-)
15:52:47 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, ^
15:53:07 <asie[draw]> RodgeR?
15:53:15 <RodgerTheGreat> asie[draw]: very, very obscure humor, poor handwriting and not drawn very well, but they're certainly comics. It's a start
15:53:17 <RodgerTheGreat> keep at it
15:53:17 <MikeRiley> hmmmmmm have to take a look at that....
15:53:52 <MikeRiley> did he fix mycology already??
15:54:02 <asie[draw]> It's meant to be like it, drawing of mine is bad, quality broke some writing too
15:54:04 <AnMaster> asie[draw], yeah, I agree with what RodgerTheGreat says
15:54:12 <AnMaster> except I like the obscure humor
15:54:19 <AnMaster> better handwriting and drawing would be good though
15:54:25 <asie[draw]> The comics aren't there for being good.
15:54:31 <asie[draw]> The comics are there to describe my feelings.
15:54:35 <asie[draw]> Yes.
15:54:44 <RodgerTheGreat> it doesn't have to be photorealistic, it doesn't have to be funny
15:54:44 <AnMaster> that said
15:54:44 <asie[draw]> I will improve with drawing though
15:54:51 <AnMaster> I suck at both hand writing and drawing
15:54:55 <AnMaster> :P
15:55:01 <asie[draw]> Handwriting... drawing on a bed isn't quite a good handwriting method xD
15:55:04 <RodgerTheGreat> just find a style (writing and drawing) and refine it
15:55:09 <AnMaster> asie[draw], agreed
15:55:19 <AnMaster> I can hardly read my *own* handwriting
15:57:48 <asie[draw]> 2 comics done
15:57:52 <asie[draw]> so now that's four
15:58:25 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat i liked your review so I made a comic out of it please note if you are colourblind please do not view this comic as you may not appreciate the full spectrum of comic entertainment it provides!oh no skitch.com is down i cannot upload it :(
15:58:53 <asie[draw]> imageshack!
15:58:53 <asie[draw]> imageshack!
15:58:54 <asie[draw]> imageshack!
15:58:54 <asie[draw]> imageshack!
15:59:00 <RodgerTheGreat> photobucket
15:59:10 <RodgerTheGreat> or the nonlogic dump
15:59:10 <tusho> i'd upload it to rutian if I wasn't so lazy
15:59:11 <tusho> :DD
15:59:19 <RodgerTheGreat> http://nonlogic.org/dump
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15:59:24 <tusho> yeah ok
15:59:33 <tusho> oh wait
15:59:35 <tusho> it is uploading
15:59:36 <tusho> huray
15:59:40 <RodgerTheGreat> photobucket is pretty dandy though
15:59:45 <asie[draw]> Ok, so now the fifth comic
15:59:45 <oklopol> i like how the guy sits down for a sip of coffee after starting to run the cyclig tag system
16:00:14 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: yeah, I uploaded a new Mycology
16:00:18 <MikeRiley> ok, fixed in Rc/Funge-98,,,,now i just need a mycology that does not say error for that now....
16:00:19 <asie[draw]> That cyclic tag comic was meant to show my feelings about the cyclic tag system
16:00:24 <MikeRiley> great, will go and grab it
16:00:28 <asie[draw]> :D
16:00:42 <tusho> hello RodgerTheGreat i now have the comic entertainment for you let me show you
16:00:43 <oklopol> tusho: up fast!
16:00:46 <tusho> http://nonlogic.org/dump/images/1218639494-comic.png
16:00:55 <tusho> i hope you appreciate it :)
16:00:56 <oklopol> asie[draw]: can you elaborate on these feeligns?
16:00:58 <oklopol> *feeligs
16:01:01 <oklopol> ...
16:01:02 <oklopol> *feelings
16:01:23 <oklopol> i used to draw cartoons where these bone-looking characters died in different ways
16:01:29 <asie[draw]> Talk about them in specific?
16:01:30 <asie[draw]> No
16:01:43 <MikeRiley> testing using new Mycology.....
16:01:46 <asie[draw]> I'd need to recall my feelings from the second i made the comic
16:01:52 <asie[draw]> And that's hard
16:02:03 <oklopol> tusho: i like it
16:02:12 <tusho> oklopol: have you seen the others
16:02:14 <tusho> i have one about norway, that's a sure sign of quality
16:02:15 <oklopol> no
16:02:19 <oklopol> just that and the norway
16:02:30 <tusho> ok look
16:02:46 <tusho> here oklopol:
16:02:52 <tusho> ugh I forgot
16:02:54 <tusho> skitch.com is down
16:02:54 <tusho> :D
16:03:02 <tusho> i'll nonlogicdump them
16:03:11 <oklopol> yes yes up fast
16:03:22 <MikeRiley> ok, new Mycology showed my y change was good....
16:03:37 <asie[draw]> tusho: your comics aren't comics at all!
16:03:51 <tusho> asie[draw]: WRONG
16:03:59 <tusho> I got a legal comic license.
16:04:03 <tusho> It cost like £500000.
16:04:11 <tusho> Only people who have that can call drawings they make comics.
16:04:22 <tusho> oklopol: ok here we are:
16:04:24 <asie[draw]> Okay
16:04:26 <asie[draw]> but that's unfair
16:04:30 <tusho> http://nonlogic.org/dump/images/1218639719-comic2.png
16:04:39 <asie[draw]> Also, in poland, comics are free to make
16:04:46 <tusho> oklopol: and http://nonlogic.org/dump/images/1218639733-comic3.png
16:04:51 <asie[draw]> Except if you're an idiot. Then they pay you a lot of cash to make you make comics
16:05:43 <RodgerTheGreat> what tusho is making is no more a comic than this is: http://nonlogic.org/dump/images/1218306214-battle.png
16:05:52 -!- Mony has joined.
16:06:04 <tusho> but RodgerTheGreat mine are funny
16:06:05 <tusho> :)
16:06:05 <RodgerTheGreat> observe: no juxtaposition, no progression of time or space.
16:06:20 <tusho> ah, I see, RodgerTheGreat
16:06:20 <tusho> therefore
16:06:25 <tusho> one panel comics aren't comics, right?
16:06:35 <RodgerTheGreat> not really
16:06:48 <tusho> weird, because i'm pretty sure Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal is a comic
16:07:13 <RodgerTheGreat> SMBC often makes use of multiple panels
16:07:17 <tusho> often
16:07:18 <tusho> not always
16:07:27 <RodgerTheGreat> and it usually portrays the passage of time or the unfolding events
16:07:36 <RodgerTheGreat> SMBC also takes more than 10 seconds to make
16:07:47 <tusho> so in the rulebook of comics
16:07:47 <tusho> there is
16:07:54 <tusho> "If you do not spend more than 10 seconds on it IT IS NOT A COMIC?"
16:07:58 <tusho> i'd like to see this rulebook
16:08:03 <tusho> and get qualified for comicdom
16:08:07 <oklopol> there is no formal definition of a comic
16:08:10 <MikeRiley> v1.17 of Rc/Funge-98 has been posted to my site now,,,,this has the y bug fixed....
16:08:16 <RodgerTheGreat> tusho: I'd like you to die
16:08:39 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: correct, in the same sense that there is no formal definition of art
16:09:13 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: I know, I mean I'm a little pest and the reason "youngsters" aren't taken seriously on the 'net, right? I believe the preferred method was "in a fire"?
16:09:18 <RodgerTheGreat> but if you take a shit in the gimp and call it a comic you're denigrating the classification
16:09:39 <tusho> denigrating the classification! holy fuck! aaah! I'm dying!
16:09:46 <tusho> so what, if I make like 1000 more of these
16:09:50 <RodgerTheGreat> observe that once again it is tusho bringing up his age because he has an immense chip on his shoulder
16:09:52 <tusho> the word "comic" will mean "shit in the gimp"?
16:09:56 <tusho> excellent
16:10:01 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: Those are all quotes from you.
16:10:15 <tusho> you called me "a little pest", "the reason youngsters aren't taken seriously on the internet", and agreed that I should "die in a fire".
16:10:28 <asie[draw]> Okay
16:10:31 <asie[draw]> scanning the next 3 comics
16:11:11 <oklopol> tusho: i'd call those drawings of yours abstract art
16:11:15 <asie[draw]> Going to up them shortly, and with higher quality.
16:11:18 <asie[draw]> :)
16:11:26 <tusho> oklopol: abstract art, "shits in the gimp"
16:11:28 <tusho> what's the difference
16:11:34 <RodgerTheGreat> the fact that you're apparently obsessively collecting criticisms of yourself only serves to drive my point home. Get over yourself.
16:11:54 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: generally I remember it when someone is continually and unprovokedly aggresive to me
16:12:40 <oklopol> there's no formal definition of a comic, but there are definitely comic elements, like juxtaposition and progression of time as RodgerTheGreat mentioned; some comics don't have those, but are in a context where you'd expect a comic, and thuse are clearly meant as freeform comics; yours have no indication of being comics
16:12:56 <RodgerTheGreat> oklopol: exactly
16:13:11 <tusho> oklopol: on the other hand, denigerating classifications is my day job
16:13:18 <oklopol> *thus
16:13:18 <tusho> so I'll continue to call them comics
16:13:28 <RodgerTheGreat> you can bend rules or omit facets of the form, but if you discard it entirely you are no longer creating a comic
16:13:31 <oklopol> tusho: yeah, make that the 6th comic and you have yourself a comic :)
16:13:38 <tusho> excellent
16:15:45 <asie[draw]> Uploading shortly
16:15:49 <asie[draw]> 3rd 4th and 5th
16:15:57 <asie[draw]> Then going back to drawing 6th, 7th and 8th
16:17:37 <asie[draw]> These are better quality, seriously.
16:17:46 <asie[draw]> I hope at least--- oh, uploaded.
16:17:47 <asie[draw]> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/asiecomic3.jpg, http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/asiecomic4.jpg, http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/asiecomic5.jpg
16:17:55 <asie[draw]> THERE you go.
16:18:02 <asie[draw]> Soon going to reupload asiecomic1&2 in HQ
16:19:14 <RodgerTheGreat> I like 3
16:19:31 <asie[draw]> that's a lesson
16:19:32 <tusho> i made a new comic http://img.skitch.com/20080813-tpquy9g5iegpnq4st3c9a8eq3g.png
16:19:33 <asie[draw]> to you
16:19:42 <asie[draw]> If it's any better than mine, i'm going to...
16:19:42 <oklopol> is the last word "pain"?
16:19:48 <asie[draw]> pairs
16:19:49 <oklopol> i don't really know cursive
16:19:54 -!- AnMaster has quit ("Leaving for Aikido").
16:20:03 <oklopol> right!
16:20:09 <oklopol> well that's funny then
16:20:17 <asie[draw]> Ok
16:20:20 <asie[draw]> so what about 4 and 5
16:20:50 <asie[draw]> oh
16:20:53 <asie[draw]> 1&2 HQ uploaded
16:20:55 <RodgerTheGreat> they are significantly less coherent
16:21:05 <asie[draw]> you mean, harder to read my handwriting
16:21:14 <tusho> mine's pretty coherent
16:21:18 <oklopol> self-aware comics without a joke are alway
16:21:20 <oklopol> s funny
16:21:23 <tusho> it states an action, then does it several times
16:21:27 <tusho> then comments on the outcome!
16:21:40 <asie[draw]> Also, you mean the 4th comic, well, it's a blueprint of a comic
16:21:41 <asie[draw]> as you can see
16:21:55 <asie[draw]> it isn't meant to be readable
16:22:00 <asie[draw]> except the last, black panel
16:22:07 <asie[draw]> which failed
16:22:13 <asie[draw]> the fourth word is "supposed"
16:22:16 <oklopol> tusho: you're losing timelessness with your RodgerTheGreat comments
16:22:18 <asie[draw]> and the word above "that" is "from"
16:22:31 <oklopol> of course probably just want him to flip and tell you to die, but anyway :P
16:22:32 <tusho> no fear oklopol
16:22:37 <tusho> back to originality for the next comic!
16:22:49 <asie[draw]> About comic 5, i was out of ideas, but this one has at least mostly readable text :)
16:22:56 <asie[draw]> Well, i must think of ideas
16:23:11 <asie[draw]> hmm... i know! YAY!
16:23:30 <oklopol> base comics are getting a little old
16:24:03 <tusho> base?
16:24:11 <tusho> oh, and I think I'm due to get my first character soon!
16:24:21 <tusho> oklopol: http://img.skitch.com/20080813-b3ifhbsx5eujdarx87d212ab95.png
16:25:25 <oklopol> that's funny with the comment
16:26:06 <tusho> ok I will have a character now
16:28:16 <tusho> ok it is done now
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16:28:20 <oklopol> wasn't the idea that you alraedy had characters?
16:28:21 <MikeRiley> you about Deewiant???
16:28:24 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080813-cu6naa5637pwuce6d4utnpnc8d.png
16:28:27 <oklopol> the unicode chars there
16:28:28 <tusho> see i suck at characters
16:28:36 <tusho> i should stick to unicode ones
16:28:37 <oklopol> nooooooo
16:28:49 <tusho> oklopol: oh man
16:28:54 <tusho> you just found a joke in my comic
16:28:55 <tusho> that even i didn't get
16:29:04 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080813-b3ifhbsx5eujdarx87d212ab95.png is like so much more funny now
16:29:30 <oklopol> damn you
16:29:37 <oklopol> let's look at the new one
16:29:59 <oklopol> norway became a worm
16:30:05 <tusho> yes
16:30:10 <tusho> norway is a running character
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16:33:52 <asie[draw]> Done number 6
16:33:55 <asie[draw]> made it for tusho :)
16:34:21 <asie[draw]> This time, i'm going to make it better quality
16:34:21 <tusho> cool, then allow me to retroactively claim this one was made for you:
16:34:34 <asie[draw]> nope
16:34:35 <asie[draw]> I made it for tusho
16:34:36 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080813-dfef5tfkdy7kdxtrjf1yejj4di.png
16:34:37 <asie[draw]> as in
16:34:40 <asie[draw]> not that he's his
16:34:48 <tusho> asie[draw]: i mean, allow me to claim this
16:34:49 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080813-dfef5tfkdy7kdxtrjf1yejj4di.png
16:34:50 <tusho> was made for you
16:34:51 <tusho> :p
16:34:51 <asie[draw]> but I made it for tusho, he's a special guest of the comic
16:34:56 <asie[draw]> i dont know
16:34:56 <tusho> oklopol: i think you'll like this one, maybe
16:35:12 <asie[draw]> The comic 6 will be saved in PNG! YAY!
16:35:25 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: yeah
16:35:46 <MikeRiley> just finished making vectors use the storage offset,,,,mycology still runs fine...
16:35:53 <MikeRiley> might be some good tests for you to add now....
16:35:54 <Deewiant> yeah, expected it to
16:36:17 <Deewiant> I probably won't test it explicitly as it's a bit of a pain, there are so many vector instructions :-P
16:36:29 <Deewiant> but I think I'm going to move stuff around a bit as I add new fingerprints
16:36:30 <tusho> although oklopol might not like it as it's quite colourful
16:36:37 <tusho> dunno if oklopol likes colourful stuff, though
16:36:38 <Deewiant> so I'll need to use { anyways
16:37:09 <MikeRiley> may only really need to make it part of the INDV tests...
16:37:58 <MikeRiley> also,,,on my site there are some tests for fingerprints you do not test yet,,,,feel free to incorporate those tests into Mycology if you wish....
16:38:15 <Deewiant> thanks, I'll take a look
16:38:30 <oklopol> i like everything
16:38:35 <oklopol> and nothing
16:38:36 <oklopol> also something
16:38:38 <tusho> oklopol: do you like http://img.skitch.com/20080813-dfef5tfkdy7kdxtrjf1yejj4di.png, though
16:38:53 <oklopol> i don't like the font of the brown text
16:39:02 <oklopol> but i like it
16:39:08 <oklopol> the ctushomic that is
16:39:14 <oklopol> *tushomic
16:39:20 <asie[draw]> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/asiecomic6.png - sorry for the filesize, also, do you like that i'm mostly using FONTS now?
16:39:23 <asie[draw]> :)
16:39:24 <MikeRiley> expected output for the tests appears at the end of each of the files...
16:39:40 <tusho> oklopol: i am deliberately choosing bad fonts for this :D
16:39:55 <asie[draw]> Sorry for the "grainish" quality, i'll fix that in later versions
16:40:01 <asie[draw]> later comics i mean
16:40:02 <asie[draw]> How's it?
16:40:05 <tusho> asie[draw]: well, that makes less sense than my comics
16:40:07 <tusho> so naturally I love it :D
16:40:11 <asie[draw]> no wait
16:40:16 <asie[draw]> i forgot about something in the comic
16:41:06 <RodgerTheGreat> asie[draw]: wait, so in #6 you shrink tusho and put him in a cannon, and then he becomes a screaming volleyball on a table?
16:41:29 <tusho> that's pretty trippy
16:42:19 <asie[draw]> nope
16:42:25 <asie[draw]> i knock him off with a hammer
16:42:36 <tusho> painful :D
16:42:44 <tusho> and delicious
16:42:45 <tusho> naturally
16:42:47 <RodgerTheGreat> knock him off what?
16:42:57 <RodgerTheGreat> and then what is the volleyball doing?
16:42:59 <asie[draw]> Just kick him
16:43:06 <asie[draw]> Screaming and... rolling
16:43:08 <asie[draw]> it's tusho
16:43:14 <RodgerTheGreat> you kick with a hammer?
16:43:15 <tusho> well i am in a lot of pain now :D
16:43:18 <RodgerTheGreat> hunh
16:44:18 <asie[draw]> ok, asiecomic6 fixed
16:44:21 <asie[draw]> now uping
16:44:30 <asie[draw]> Then i must think of an idea for #7
16:44:39 <asie[draw]> for this one, it was obviously tusho's ""comics""
16:44:52 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080813-dfef5tfkdy7kdxtrjf1yejj4di.png is obviously a comic
16:44:54 <asie[draw]> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/asiecomic6.jpg - 40kb smaller, and added some text that wasnt before
16:45:08 <RodgerTheGreat> asie[draw]: how about spending more time attempting to draw?
16:45:23 <asie[draw]> Not really
16:45:53 <asie[draw]> Why? Just because i can't really draw better
16:46:00 <asie[draw]> and stickmen would look like they do anyway
16:46:05 <asie[draw]> I can only erase the pencil leftovers
16:46:11 <asie[draw]> that'll improve the quality a little too
16:46:27 <RodgerTheGreat> if you only draw stickmen, that's all you'll ever be able to draw
16:46:54 <asie[draw]> But i'm drawing it that way
16:46:56 <asie[draw]> Can't i?
16:47:02 <asie[draw]> that's how my comics are meant to look
16:47:07 <asie[draw]> Sure, props look badsome
16:47:22 <tusho>  i don't see what is wrong with stickmen RodgerTheGreat
16:47:37 <asie[draw]> Okay
16:47:43 <asie[draw]> Now, an esolang to take inspiration from
16:47:44 <RodgerTheGreat> in comics your ability to portray things is limited by your art. Also, "that's how my comics are meant to look" is no excuse for sloppiness. XKCD, for example, uses crude stick figures, but they're drawn much more thoughfully
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16:48:18 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat have you ever considered that people make comics for their own enjoyment and because they want to
16:48:25 <tusho> not because they want to live up to your high and mighty definition of "good comic"
16:48:44 <asie[draw]> Agreed. i already said
16:48:49 <asie[draw]> I don't draw them to be awesome and good.
16:48:53 <asie[draw]> I don't even do art
16:48:59 <asie[draw]> I just want them to show my feelings and ideas
16:49:00 <RodgerTheGreat> if he was drawing it purely for his own enjoyment he wouldn't be putting them on the internet. This implies he wants an audience. An audience implies feedback and criticsm
16:49:05 <asie[draw]> And be funny at least 1/4th of the time
16:49:05 <RodgerTheGreat> *criticism
16:49:11 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: No. No it does not.
16:49:17 <asie[draw]> I put them to let others see what i do.
16:49:17 <tusho> It implies "heh, I drew this stuff, maybe someone else will like it"
16:49:26 <asie[draw]> Just like tusho does with his
16:49:44 <asie[draw]> If i said "Here you go, here are comics, now review them" then it'll mean i'm looking for an audience.
16:49:47 <asie[draw]> I just want to have fun
16:49:54 <asie[draw]> and share the fun with people
16:49:57 <asie[draw]> :)
16:50:02 <tusho> ditto to that :)
16:50:06 <RodgerTheGreat> "sharing the fun with people" says you want an audience
16:50:12 <tusho> RodgerTheGreat: no, it means
16:50:17 <RodgerTheGreat> my argument stands
16:50:21 <tusho> "if there is anyone who would consider this fun, hope you enjoy the fun"
16:50:33 <tusho> not "i hope someone enjoys this fun, if they don't, please tell me how i can make it fun"
16:50:41 <tusho> that is what both me and asie[draw] are doin
16:50:42 <tusho> g
16:50:43 <tusho> the former.
16:50:53 <asie[draw]> The latter is what xkcd and others do
16:51:04 <tusho> actually xkcd started doing the former
16:51:07 <tusho> and still has elements of it, I find
16:51:15 <dogface> I hear asie[draw] is drawing.
16:51:18 <tusho> he just put his doodles up because, well, he wanted to.
16:51:41 <asie[draw]> i scribble
16:51:52 <asie[draw]> That's why my comics have the unofficial name of "Screebles"
16:52:00 <asie[draw]> The name implies it
16:52:07 <asie[draw]> That these are not real comics, but "screebles"
16:52:45 <asie[draw]> Ok
16:52:48 <asie[draw]> finishing comic 7
16:52:51 <tusho> cool
16:52:52 <asie[draw]> for RodgerTheGreat
16:52:55 <asie[draw]> he's not going to be satisfied
16:53:39 <tusho> o rly
16:53:55 <asie[draw]> YA RLY!!!1111!!1111ONE
16:53:58 <dogface> Where are all the asiecomics?
16:54:05 <asie[draw]> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net
16:54:15 <asie[draw]> asiecomic1&2_hq.jpg, asiecomic3-6.jpg
16:54:22 <asie[draw]> And soon there'll be asiecomic7.jpg
16:55:40 <dogface> Hmm, tusho has comics, too?
16:55:45 <tusho> dogface: yes.
16:55:46 <tusho> just a sec.
16:55:48 <tusho> I'll compile all the links.
16:55:48 <asie[draw]> Yeah
16:55:52 <asie[draw]> but he does a very specific style
16:55:59 <asie[draw]> A fancy BG and a lot of fancy text
16:55:59 <asie[draw]> also
16:56:00 <asie[draw]> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/asiecomic7.jpg - rodgerthegreat, see this. NOW.
16:56:04 <asie[draw]> asiecomic7 is there
16:56:07 <tusho> dogface:
16:56:07 <asie[draw]> check it first
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16:56:50 <asie[draw]> And?
16:57:23 <asie[draw]> Hello?
16:57:25 <tusho> gah
16:57:26 <tusho> wait
16:57:34 <asie[draw]> how's asiecomic7
16:57:35 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080813-jmxd865qbiw2w9fi1juc94hadn.png, http://img.skitch.com/20080813-957eaanjn4kpi78psagx2sg9e.png, http://img.skitch.com/20080813-ps54n2wsfwy3dd28uq9tfgp5ij.png, http://img.skitch.com/20080813-p34j6undrtiw7q4ucwwh5mj8k3.png,
16:57:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:57:41 <asie[draw]> Ok
16:57:42 <asie[draw]> yay
16:57:45 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080813-tpquy9g5iegpnq4st3c9a8eq3g.png, http://img.skitch.com/20080813-b3ifhbsx5eujdarx87d212ab95.png, http://img.skitch.com/20080813-cu6naa5637pwuce6d4utnpnc8d.png and http://img.skitch.com/20080813-dfef5tfkdy7kdxtrjf1yejj4di.png
16:57:46 <tusho> dogface: there
16:57:47 <tusho> all of them
16:58:02 <asie[draw]> I tihnk rodger ran away after seeing this comic.
16:58:10 <asie[draw]> think*
16:58:30 <tusho> probably
16:58:33 <asie[draw]> wait, he did not
16:58:50 <dogface> The asiecomics are a little hard to read.
16:58:55 <asie[draw]> I know
16:58:59 <asie[draw]> but this is my first try at comics
16:59:04 <fizzie> Tushocomics weren't too easy to read either.
16:59:05 <asie[draw]> And they're not meant to be for an audience
16:59:08 <tusho> dogface: tushomics
16:59:08 <dogface> Can I be a character? :-)
16:59:12 <tusho> err
16:59:14 <asie[draw]> In mine?
16:59:15 <tusho> fizzie: tushomics
16:59:17 -!- dogface has changed nick to ihope.
16:59:20 <tusho> still, there's not that much text
16:59:21 <ihope> asie[draw]: yep.
16:59:24 <fizzie> tusho; Oh, right, they weren't comics.
16:59:25 <asie[draw]> But you know all characters i put in mine are parodies
16:59:30 <asie[draw]> You must first make me angry, or funny
16:59:33 <asie[draw]> by accident
16:59:38 <ihope> Oh.
16:59:42 <asie[draw]> Then i make it flow into a comic
16:59:45 <asie[draw]> Then i publish it. :)
16:59:46 <tusho> fizzie: Tushomics may be hard to comprehend, but the _text_ that they have is pretty easy to read
17:00:01 <asie[draw]> How's asiecomic7 then?
17:00:27 <tusho> It's good. :P
17:00:30 <fizzie> tusho; The greenish stuff in http://img.skitch.com/20080813-957eaanjn4kpi78psagx2sg9e.png wasn't very easy to read, especially the first line.
17:00:33 <asie[draw]> He deserved it
17:00:46 <tusho> fizzie: Oh, well, that's not text. That's just art. :-P
17:01:02 <asie[draw]> So, well, i'm going to make the eight comic whenever i find inspiration
17:01:04 <tusho> I think it says "YOU'RE SO FAT your mother is palatino linotyp(Buffer, Overflow...)"
17:01:18 <asie[draw]> Well, yay! I have an idea!
17:02:22 <asie[draw]> or not
17:02:24 <asie[draw]> too hard to draw
17:02:29 <tusho> asie[draw]: give it a try :P
17:02:45 <asie[draw]> Nope, i wanted to do a timeline of xmas computer-related presents
17:02:48 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: REFC should probably not use the storage offsets, right?
17:02:49 <asie[draw]> but not just text
17:02:55 <asie[draw]> and all consoles and computers are too hard to draw
17:03:06 <MikeRiley> why not???
17:03:14 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: since the list is global
17:03:18 <asie[draw]> I want to make asiecomics in max 30 minutes
17:03:23 <MikeRiley> good point.....
17:03:31 <asie[draw]> And drawing 30 consoles&computers is more than a hour of work
17:03:33 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: if IP 1 pushes with its storage offset and IP 2 pops with its, that wouldn't work...
17:03:48 <MikeRiley> i agree,,,,so yeah,,,,REFC should not use it....
17:03:58 <tusho> asie[draw]: tushomics take max 5 minutes
17:03:58 <tusho> :D
17:03:59 <asie[draw]> Oh well.
17:04:06 <asie[draw]> But 30 minutes is the max limit
17:04:09 <asie[draw]> for special cases
17:04:16 <asie[draw]> Usually they should take at minimum 1 minute
17:04:22 <asie[draw]> and at max 7,5 minutes
17:04:41 <asie[draw]> 15 minutes max is for very graphical/long comics
17:04:48 <asie[draw]> 30 minutes is for INSANE comics with INSANE amount of both
17:05:20 <oklopol> insanity WHAAAAA
17:05:31 <asie[draw]> anyway, taking a break
17:05:34 <asie[draw]> maybe i'll make an asiecomic
17:05:35 <asie[draw]> or two
17:05:42 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: and I guess it should be the same for INDV and any others which store vectors in funge-space??
17:06:26 <MikeRiley> not sure about INDV....but does end up producing a similar problem .
17:06:56 <Deewiant> IMO they should be absolute to avoid that problem
17:07:04 <MikeRiley> storing vectors in funge-space may not be the issue,,,,but using vectors that came from funge-space....
17:07:26 <MikeRiley> hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
17:07:30 <Deewiant> well you just have to know in the code that they're absolute
17:07:31 <MikeRiley> need to think about this one....
17:07:43 <MikeRiley> which makes exceptions,,,,i hate exceptions.....
17:07:52 <asie[draw]> one comic done
17:07:54 <Deewiant> you just know that since they come from INDV they may have come from another IP with a different storage offset
17:07:57 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:08:16 <Deewiant> and thus, in the befunge, you should subtract your storage offset from them before using them with instructions like g
17:08:42 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:08:50 <MikeRiley> brb
17:09:13 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: and hmm, PNTR is still in your manual, I thought you were going to get rid of it?
17:10:42 <asie[draw]> Ok
17:10:49 <asie[draw]> 2in1 comic (8&9) done
17:10:54 <asie[draw]> Now the TENVERSARY
17:11:06 <tusho> Cool.
17:12:41 <MikeRiley> i am going to get rid of it....
17:13:54 <tusho> I have a truly marvellous topic for this channel which this message is too small to contain.
17:14:02 <tusho> (That was so optbot picks that up.)
17:14:02 <optbot> tusho: you can get integers from natural numbers with a pair of them, (a, b) where the number is a - b
17:14:19 <MikeRiley> rid of it now in my copies....next site update PNTR will be gone from there too
17:14:36 <asie[draw]> Ok
17:14:38 <asie[draw]> made 3 comics
17:14:42 <asie[draw]> Now let's up them
17:14:48 <asie[draw]> but first, scanning
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17:17:12 <asie[draw]> Then i'll up 10
17:17:14 <asie[draw]> i mean
17:17:16 <asie[draw]> comics 8, 9 and 10
17:17:19 <asie[draw]> and i'm done for today.
17:17:34 <tusho> asie[draw] make an esolang that generates comics.
17:17:48 <asie[draw]> forget
17:17:50 <asie[draw]> about
17:17:51 <asie[draw]> it
17:17:56 <tusho> o
17:17:57 <tusho> h
17:17:57 <tusho> k
17:17:57 <tusho> a
17:17:58 <tusho> y
17:18:06 <ihope> Mind if I say "optbot" until optbot gives me my Fibonacci functions?
17:18:07 <optbot> ihope: I get Emacs to higlight trailing whitespace for me, because occasionally it's relevant
17:18:14 <tusho> Nope.
17:18:16 <tusho> Go ahead.
17:18:20 <tusho> Uh, it doesn't know current stuff though.
17:18:25 <ihope> Oh.
17:18:26 <tusho> Only stuff that happened up to the time when it was put up.
17:18:36 <tusho> that is, everything before its time
17:18:44 <ihope> It's probably not going to give them, then.
17:19:45 <ihope> Let me see, a*phi + b... multiply by phi and b becomes a and a becomes a+b. So a is the higher Fibonacci number, b is the lower.
17:20:39 <ihope> Position 0 is the 1,0 in 1,0,1,1,2,3,5,8...
17:21:21 <asie[draw]> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/asiecomic8&9.JPG http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/asiecomic10.JPG
17:21:25 <asie[draw]> So here you are.
17:21:27 <asie[draw]> That's ten.
17:21:30 <ihope> (a*phi + b)^2 = a*(phi+1) + 2a*b*phi + b^2 = (2a*b + a)*phi + a + b^2.
17:21:34 <asie[draw]> Check these out
17:21:34 * ihope plays with it in Python
17:21:42 <tusho> first one is broken
17:21:56 <tusho> ah
17:21:57 <tusho> now it works
17:22:13 <tusho> Hmm.
17:22:14 <tusho> I am insane.
17:22:18 <asie[draw]> xD
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17:22:40 <ihope> Oh no, I see seven.
17:22:51 <asie[draw]> hint hint: Sane people look closely before they assume something.
17:23:14 <ihope> Who's the guy wearing a T-quadromino?
17:23:14 -!- Hiato has joined.
17:23:25 <asie[draw]> He's some sort of a leader
17:23:27 <asie[draw]> or something
17:24:03 <ihope> Ah.
17:24:23 <ihope> Not related to the guy wearing a half rest, from xkcd?
17:24:29 <asie[draw]> Nope
17:24:39 <asie[draw]> I think nope
17:24:43 <asie[draw]> Maybe subconciously
17:25:35 <asie[draw]> But yyou know
17:25:38 * ihope nods
17:25:38 <asie[draw]> the P test is that
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17:25:57 <asie[draw]> the lower right P in the large P has a light line drawn that makes it into an 8 or a B
17:26:30 <ihope> Nonsense, letters don't have colors. :-)
17:26:43 <asie[draw]> a light as in light gray
17:26:46 <asie[draw]> Look closely.
17:26:48 <asie[draw]> Please.
17:26:52 <ihope> I know.
17:27:05 <asie[draw]> It is meant to be like it
17:27:14 <asie[draw]> for a little joke
17:27:18 <asie[draw]> Also
17:27:21 <asie[draw]> the Funge thing
17:27:28 <asie[draw]> There are 10^10^infinity funges
17:27:40 <asie[draw]> a Unefunge Befunge Trefunge Quafunge 5Efunge... Googfunge...
17:27:52 <asie[draw]> Googfunge refers to a number called "Google".
17:27:58 <asie[draw]> or googol
17:28:03 <asie[draw]> i dont know how its called here
17:28:08 <asie[draw]> Here it's a googol
17:28:29 <tusho> googol.
17:28:31 <tusho> google is named after it
17:28:34 <asie[draw]> so, 10 comics is enough for now.
17:28:35 <ihope> Bah, my doubling function thinks 11 and 14 are Fibonacci numbers.
17:28:37 <asie[draw]> Yay.
17:28:45 * ihope congratulates someone
17:28:46 <asie[draw]> Or does anyone want an 11th one
17:28:58 <ihope> Mine goes up to 11. Or something. :-)
17:29:06 <asie[draw]> Also, tusho
17:29:11 <asie[draw]> how many comics did YOU make today
17:29:33 <tusho> 8
17:29:43 <asie[draw]> I made ten.
17:29:45 <asie[draw]> I beat you.
17:29:56 <tusho> Mine were more polished. :P
17:30:02 <tusho> How do you know I'm done?
17:30:07 <asie[draw]> What
17:30:09 <asie[draw]> you are NOT?
17:30:13 <tusho> Perhaps not.
17:30:39 <fizzie> Comic-fight. To the death.
17:30:49 <asie[draw]> Mine was more comicish though
17:31:38 <ihope> Indeed, asiecomics are more comicish.
17:32:08 <tusho> Yes but mine are funnier.
17:32:30 <asie[draw]> Yeah right.
17:32:34 <asie[draw]> Also
17:32:38 <asie[draw]> mine aren't meant to be fun
17:32:44 <asie[draw]> They're meant to express my feelings and ideas.
17:32:47 <asie[draw]> They can be fun
17:32:49 <asie[draw]> but don't need to
17:34:04 <asie[draw]> actually
17:34:07 <asie[draw]> i'm making the 11th one
17:34:24 <ihope> Yay.
17:36:15 <asie[draw]> And made it, now scanning
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17:39:16 <ihope> n=gavin? How suspicious.
17:39:32 <ihope> ~exec sys.stdout("something like this")
17:39:55 <ihope> Oh, there is no bsmnt_bot.
17:41:14 <fizzie> Yes, there was a brief period of bsmnt_bot messing-around earlier today.
17:41:32 <ihope> I'll have to write bashbot, then.
17:41:35 -!- asie[draw] has joined.
17:41:37 <asie[draw]> Ok, back
17:41:39 <asie[draw]> uping #11
17:42:53 <asie[draw]> Oh no, i think i made an infinite loop in Bitwise Cyclic Tag, 010; with data 10
17:43:07 <asie[draw]> i mean
17:43:11 <asie[draw]> in normal cyclic tag
17:44:14 <asie[draw]> in BCT it's 1011100
17:44:25 <asie[draw]> yeah, it is an infinite tool
17:44:28 <asie[draw]> loop*
17:45:08 <asie[draw]> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/asiecomic11.jpg <- O_O
17:45:11 <ihope> An infinite tool would be interesting.
17:45:27 <asie[draw]> infinite loop
17:45:27 <asie[draw]> i said
17:45:29 <asie[draw]> i meant
17:45:38 <asie[draw]> 1011100 with data 10
17:46:35 <asie[draw]> It works with any data i think
17:46:52 <asie[draw]> except just 0
17:47:12 <asie[draw]> And, how's asiecomic11
17:47:24 <asie[draw]> Oh i see
17:47:31 <asie[draw]> You're busy playing the STICKULATOR
17:47:35 <asie[draw]> from asiecomic 11
17:47:55 <asie[draw]> FUNFACT: It was originally meant to be a calculator made from sticks
17:47:58 <asie[draw]> stickmen*
17:48:03 <asie[draw]> But this is 2x funnier
17:48:13 <asie[draw]> i also meant stickmen
17:48:18 <asie[draw]> but who cares
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17:49:21 <oklopol> i don't!
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18:26:10 <psygnisfive> tusho you're so funny :)
18:26:39 <tusho> i am assuming that was referring to something other than my comics
18:26:48 <psygnisfive> ofcourse.
18:27:09 <psygnisfive> but alas, i cannot explain right now, for i must go dig up the roots of plants.
18:27:14 <tusho> although i don't generally trust you to have a non-idiotic opinion on anything, since I haven't seen one come out of you yet
18:27:36 <psygnisfive> wow, didnt take you long to get nasty did it
18:27:42 <psygnisfive> and i didnt even mention your age
18:27:46 <psygnisfive> how humorous.
18:28:17 <psygnisfive> bye for now, child.
18:28:21 <tusho> actually i did that to flare you up :D
18:28:32 <tusho> since I know what you're talking about
18:29:08 <psygnisfive> whatever helps you feel good about your insecurities :)
18:29:46 <tusho> i'm not insecure at all, i'm very happy
18:29:55 <tusho> but I'm pretty sure trying to put insecurities on others is a hallmark of insecurity!
18:41:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | gives meaning to syntax that previously didn't have any.
18:57:38 <fizzie> optbot; Deep.
18:57:39 <optbot> fizzie: I see what the issue is
18:57:53 <fizzie> optbot; And, what is the issue?
18:57:54 <optbot> fizzie: ox malaka
18:59:14 <fizzie> optbot; Is that Greek?
18:59:14 <optbot> fizzie: collaborative project idea: alphabet poem
19:03:13 <ihope> optbot: is "mikrokosmos" Greek?
19:03:13 <optbot> ihope: when you take the limit of smaller intervals, that is the riemann integral
19:06:12 <ihope> The Riemann integral of the Pythagorean comma is 3.
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19:06:15 <ihope> I am enlightened.
19:06:27 <ihope> Aww, KingOfKarlsruhe, you just missed my enlightenment.
19:07:27 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^^
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19:22:00 <oklopol> http://rafb.net/p/Zrn36t47.html <<< /me is very disappointed
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19:29:21 <bsmntbombdood> ~quit
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19:37:21 <psygnisfive> i prefer the pythagorean apostrophe, myself
19:37:48 <psygnisfive> who was dogface?
19:38:16 <oklopol> ihope
19:38:22 <psygnisfive> ok
19:38:28 <psygnisfive> ihope, when shall we do your version of The Game?
19:38:35 <oklopol> dogs ate his face
19:38:47 <psygnisfive> if hes cute, ill eat his ass
19:38:48 <ihope> psygnisfive: my version of The Game?
19:38:53 <psygnisfive> AIBox
19:39:27 <ihope> After tusho writes a proposal system, asset system, credit system, corporation system, and justice system for Normish.
19:39:36 <ihope> Or earlier.
19:40:16 <ihope> ~exec sys.stdout("Meep?")
19:41:16 <ihope> ~exec sys.stdout.write("Meep Meep Meep Meep Meep Meep Meep Meep Meep Meep Meep Meep Meeeeeeeeeep Meep-Meep")
19:43:43 <ihope> Meep.
19:43:58 <fizzie> Eep-meep.
19:46:02 <oklopol> i don't like vista :<
19:46:12 <oklopol> it won't let programs change the registry
19:46:35 <oklopol> why can't there be like a safety switch
19:46:51 <oklopol> i don't want safety, safety is for kids and retards
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19:56:25 <AnMaster> no one seen ais?
19:56:40 <AnMaster> hi bsmntbombdood
19:56:46 <AnMaster> ~bs +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
19:56:48 <AnMaster> no?
19:56:52 <tusho> ~bf ,[.,]!hi
19:56:57 <tusho> no ~bf yet
19:56:59 <tusho> who wants to add it
19:57:55 <oklopol> tusho!
19:58:06 <tusho> hi oklopol
19:58:12 <Mony> optbot, so ?
19:58:12 <optbot> Mony: s='s=%r;print s%%s';print s%s
19:58:22 <Mony> optbot, what the fuck is it ?
19:58:23 <optbot> Mony: I've got a project for this weekend.
19:58:35 <Mony> yeah, nice optbot ^^
19:58:35 <optbot> Mony: The right way
19:58:44 <Mony> of course ;)
19:58:55 <AnMaster> nice topic btw
19:59:02 <AnMaster> tusho, what was the context of it?
19:59:56 <oklopol> Mony: it's a quine
20:01:05 <tusho> AnMaster: context -
20:01:08 <tusho> 08.07.07:15:09:52 <ais523> AnMaster: gives meaning to syntax that previously didn't have any
20:01:23 <tusho> 15:09:41 <AnMaster> oh I see
20:01:24 <tusho> 15:09:43 <ais523> because the thing it's testing isn't supported
20:01:24 <tusho> 15:09:43 <AnMaster> what is CREATE?
20:01:24 <tusho> 15:09:52 <ais523> AnMaster: gives meaning to syntax that previously didn't have any
20:01:24 <tusho> 15:09:59 <ais523> there's a DO T .1 in the INTERCAL file
20:02:18 <oklopol> i remember that
20:02:41 <oklopol> tusho: what filter removed "AnMaster:"?
20:03:10 <tusho> oklopol: it removes "(word without spaces)[:,]" at the start of a sentence
20:04:14 <oklopol> that was a clever thing to notice
20:06:32 <fizzie> My nonstandard "name;" syntax isn't removed, then. Fortunately I won't speak much.
20:08:06 <tusho> fizzie: Why do you use it, by the way? :P
20:08:11 <tusho> oklopol: ais523 suggested it
20:08:18 <fizzie> A bad habit, I guess.
20:08:27 <tusho> fizzie: Surely you do tab completion, right?
20:08:33 <tusho> In which case it should be configurable...
20:08:44 -!- jix has joined.
20:08:56 <fizzie> Well, no. Usually I just mumble without directing the stuff to anyone.
20:09:42 <fizzie> One one channel I used to use the shortest case-insensitively unique prefixes. So it'd be "tu; foo" when speaking to you.
20:10:00 <fizzie> s/One/On/
20:10:21 <psygnisfive> ihope
20:11:10 <ihope> psygnisfive: yes?
20:11:14 <psygnisfive> shall we?
20:11:23 <ihope> No.
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20:12:03 <ihope> I have other things to do.
20:12:17 -!- Judofyr has joined.
20:12:21 <psygnisfive> lame.
20:12:38 <ihope> Quite.
20:13:01 <ihope> Now that I've found packages.debian.org, I wonder what I wanted to look up.
20:13:18 <AnMaster> ah
20:13:22 <AnMaster> ok tusho
20:13:36 <tusho> [20:09:44] <fizzie> One one channel I used to use the shortest case-insensitively unique prefixes. So it'd be "tu; foo" when speaking to you.
20:13:40 <tusho> Weird.
20:20:18 <tusho> I mean
20:20:22 <tusho> f; weird.
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20:56:51 <tusho> "[...]The main contender, ReiserFS, dropped out of the race because its creator decided to pursue other interests[...]"
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21:08:12 <ihope> I keep meaning to write a bashbot.
21:11:09 <ihope> Oh, right, GHC was what I wanted to look up in packages.debian.org.
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22:08:13 <Mony> 'night
22:10:25 <oklopol> b
22:10:44 <oklopol> *n
22:11:15 <tusho> test
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2008-08-14:

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00:41:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you could have the parser do an event-based call thing... and take the return value of the callback as its yield..
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06:41:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Name to me one valid usage of goto..
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06:43:44 <asiekierka> Hi
06:43:56 <asiekierka> Screebles strike again since i'm going to draw #12 soon
06:44:08 <asiekierka> Based on a story... from IRC.
06:44:53 <asiekierka> I will also split 1&2
06:50:14 <asiekierka> Ok
06:50:25 <asiekierka> CMS installled, now to set it up
06:50:38 <asiekierka> nope, it's not content management system this time. but a comic management system.
06:53:29 <asiekierka> Uploaded 2 comics so far
06:55:14 <asiekierka> 9 left :(
06:58:06 <asiekierka> 4 comics so far =)
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07:01:36 <asiekierka> 7 now, 3 are left (as one comic is a 2-in-1)
07:04:37 <asiekierka> Okay
07:04:40 <asiekierka> the last one :)
07:04:48 <asiekierka> Then set up the whole page, and give you guys the link
07:04:58 <asiekierka> So you can check yourself what's new
07:05:57 <asiekierka> Oh great. I must reoffset the comics.
07:10:29 <asiekierka> Nearly done. Now i must configure the site itself.
07:23:01 <asiekierka> *sigh*
07:27:59 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/ - i SO, so hope it works.
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07:30:12 <asiekierka> Back
07:30:20 <asiekierka> oh, how's bsmnt_bot?
07:30:41 <bsmntbombdood> what
07:30:54 <asiekierka> how's bsmnt_bot? Does it have something new?
07:31:00 <bsmntbombdood> nothing new
07:31:16 <bsmntbombdood> i don't even know if it works anymore, i haven't played with it at all
07:31:23 <asiekierka> ~bct 000!111
07:31:26 <asiekierka> Nope
07:31:28 <asiekierka> it isn't there
07:31:37 <asiekierka> We played with it
07:31:40 <asiekierka> to add bct
07:31:42 <asiekierka> a lot.
07:32:25 <bsmntbombdood> persistance is probably broken then
07:32:41 <asiekierka> Yeah
07:32:54 <asiekierka> 1; or 11;
07:32:57 <asiekierka> i mean
07:32:58 <asiekierka> 1; or 110
07:33:13 <bsmntbombdood> ~exec sys.stdout("foo")
07:33:23 <bsmntbombdood> greaaaaat
07:33:31 <bsmntbombdood> ~exec sys.stdout.write("foo")
07:33:31 <asiekierka> bsmntbombdood: go onto PM
07:33:36 <asiekierka> to bsmnt_bot
07:33:41 <bsmntbombdood> why?
07:33:42 <asiekierka> and type... uh... {must check logs}
07:34:07 <bsmntbombdood> oh i know i was running the wrong file
07:34:21 <asiekierka> get him onto #esoteric-blah basically
07:34:27 <asiekierka> well, ~exec works there
07:34:30 <bsmntbombdood> hold on
07:34:36 <bsmntbombdood> ~quit
07:34:36 -!- bsmnt_bot has quit.
07:34:42 <asiekierka> :)
07:34:54 <asiekierka> going off, must show my screebles to others
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07:35:05 <bsmntbombdood> waaaait
07:36:08 <oklopol> oooooooooo
07:36:09 <bsmntbombdood> whatever i'll do it tommorow
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08:19:07 <psygnisfive> oklopol
08:20:07 <oklopol> psygnisfive
08:20:11 <psygnisfive> marry me
08:20:21 <oklopol> :D
08:20:33 <psygnisfive> seriously! :O
08:21:06 <oklopol> i know you're serious
08:21:11 <oklopol> don't worry
08:21:15 <psygnisfive> its legal in california! :D
08:21:40 <oklopol> lucky us! :))))))
08:21:55 <psygnisfive> you need new pics.
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08:36:30 <Mony> hi
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09:43:49 <fungot> Hello. I'm a silly bot written in Funge-98, using the STRN, SOCK and FGRN fingerprints, running under RC/Funge-98.
09:45:34 <fungot> I don't have any commands yet, really. Just a free-for-all "^raw" command that can be used to talk here. But maybe I'll get some language interpreters in me or something.
09:46:31 <fungot> My heavily commented, completely unoptimized and very un-Befungey and ugly sources are at http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.bef.txt also.
09:49:16 <fizzie> (I got inspired by all the bsmnt_bot and Befunge talk that was here yesterday.)
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10:25:59 <asiekierka> Hi
10:26:13 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles - Comics 12 through 15 made and upped!
10:27:38 <Mony> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/?id=13 >> nice :)
10:28:24 <asiekierka> xD
10:28:37 <asiekierka> The orange portal in the last scene was correted by MS Paint
10:28:40 <asiekierka> as was the size of comic 15
10:29:06 <asiekierka> Also
10:29:11 <asiekierka> did tusho make any more comics past his 8
10:29:20 <asiekierka> Also, i'm waiting for him
10:29:32 <asiekierka> he joked about that he buyed a license to call his things comics for 500000$
10:29:51 <asiekierka> I'll tell him they called me to stop calling mine comics since i didn't pay, and called them Screebles instead.
10:30:24 <asiekierka> Also, the last comic's stickman has a SHADOW! that's a symbol of something big (xD)
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10:31:22 <asiekierka> Also
10:31:26 <asiekierka> which comic is the best so far?
10:31:52 <asiekierka> I'm going to fix the size of #3 now
10:31:54 <asiekierka> it's way too large
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10:34:15 <asiekierka> Ok, comic #3 is fixed now.
10:34:26 <asiekierka> no wait
10:34:28 <asiekierka> it isn'
10:34:29 <asiekierka> t
10:34:41 <asiekierka> or maybe...
10:34:46 <asiekierka> yes, it is, hopefully
10:36:20 <oklopol> ^raw PISS OUT MY ASS
10:36:25 <oklopol> ...
10:36:29 <oklopol> ^raw privmsg #esoteric: PISS OUT MY ASS
10:36:33 <oklopol> ^raw privmsg #esoteric :PISS OUT MY ASS
10:36:35 <fungot> PISS OUT MY ASS
10:36:35 <oklopol> ...
10:36:41 <oklopol> niiiice
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10:36:52 <asiekierka> ^bf ,[.,]!lol
10:36:57 <asiekierka> :((
10:37:21 <oklopol> fizzie: where is the mandatory bf command?
10:37:27 <asiekierka> also
10:37:31 <asiekierka> it's called fungot
10:37:34 <oklopol> you do know any bot without it will be autobanned
10:37:36 <asiekierka> So there must be befunge support
10:37:44 <asiekierka> Wait
10:37:48 <asiekierka> I also have a bf command
10:37:51 <oklopol> asiekierka: made in befunge, as fizzie said just before you entered
10:37:53 <asiekierka> But it's client-side (as in, my side)
10:37:57 <asiekierka> what
10:38:00 <asiekierka> It IS MADE IN BEFUNGE?
10:38:02 <oklopol> asie-bf: +[]
10:38:05 <oklopol> yes
10:38:08 <oklopol> i think
10:38:18 <asiekierka> I wanted to make a bot in befunge
10:38:27 <asiekierka> How large is it
10:38:30 <asiekierka> Will you put source
10:38:37 <oklopol> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.bef.txt
10:38:51 <oklopol> fizzie's
10:38:52 <asiekierka> Can i modify it if i want?
10:39:01 <asiekierka> rather not
10:39:03 <asiekierka> i don't understand it
10:39:06 <asiekierka> xD
10:40:06 <oklopol> my guess is fizzie, like most people, do their esolanging as free code
10:40:27 <asiekierka> I really must make an IRCot Language.
10:40:32 <asiekierka> And i'm making it.
10:40:35 <asiekierka> I wonder
10:40:44 <oklopol> IRCot language?
10:40:44 <asiekierka> whether make it command-based (10 GOTO 10 etc etc)
10:40:45 <asiekierka> 1-D
10:40:47 <asiekierka> or 2-D
10:40:51 <asiekierka> language for writing ircbots
10:41:19 <asiekierka> I wonder, should it be 1-D, 2-D or command-based
10:41:42 <asiekierka> If 2-D, it'll for sure be able to self-modify
10:41:58 <asiekierka> Why? Because advanced IRCbots will need it
10:42:07 <asiekierka> It'll have both stack and a cell-based memory
10:42:23 <oklopol> will it be befunge?
10:42:25 <asiekierka> Also, an ability to store 4 strings and access each one
10:42:33 <asiekierka> Maybe inspired by befunge.
10:42:38 <asiekierka> But i wonder
10:42:41 <asiekierka> what is the way to go
10:42:41 <asiekierka> 2d
10:42:43 <asiekierka> or command-based
10:42:59 <oklopol> make it run on an arbitrary graph
10:43:11 <asiekierka> arbitrary graph?
10:43:20 <oklopol> arbitrary graph.
10:43:48 <asiekierka> I rather think 2D
10:43:53 <asiekierka> but first i must check
10:43:59 <asiekierka> what's an arbitrary graphy
10:44:00 <asiekierka> graph*
10:44:01 <oklopol> perhaps the playground could be randomized so you'd have to make your turtle figure out its shape before you could actually do anything :-)
10:44:20 <asiekierka> The playground would be a set of cubes
10:44:20 <oklopol> a graph is a set of nodes, and arcs connecting two nodes
10:44:26 <asiekierka> A good idea
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10:44:34 <asiekierka> I wanted to make "boxes"
10:44:40 <asiekierka> And connection nodes between the boxes
10:44:47 <asiekierka> So you can only jump through the nodes
10:44:48 <oklopol> n-dimensional grids are a special case of this
10:44:55 <oklopol> as are all kinds of linked structures
10:45:01 <asiekierka> So you can create a 10x10 "main" box
10:45:10 <asiekierka> Then 3x3 "process" boxes linked to the main one
10:45:17 <asiekierka> Then ?x? "command" boxes
10:45:31 <asiekierka> This is an ideal structure of an ircbotlang (Boxes&links)
10:45:52 <asiekierka> Also, there'll be 4 strings you can access indefinitely, a stack and a cell-based memory
10:46:00 <asiekierka> I wonder
10:46:06 <asiekierka> There must be 4 strings and a cell-based memory
10:46:12 <asiekierka> A cell-based memory can emulate a stack
10:46:14 <asiekierka> so... uh...
10:46:17 <asiekierka> I don't see the point
10:46:31 <asiekierka> Should i have all 3?
10:46:35 <oklopol> yeah the point is missing altogether yeah
10:46:37 <asiekierka> or just a cell-based memory and 4 strings?
10:47:02 <asiekierka> I think rather than 4 strings
10:47:07 <asiekierka> I'll use a stack of strings
10:47:13 <asiekierka> xD
10:47:15 <asiekierka> Yeah
10:47:41 <asiekierka> An at least 20000 cell memory. And a stack of strings, with at least a size of 8 strings. Strings are up to 256 chars.
10:47:48 <oklopol> use a stack of stacks of stacks of stacks!
10:47:53 <asiekierka> forget!
10:48:31 <asiekierka> ##########         ####
10:48:31 <asiekierka> #        #.........#  #
10:48:31 <asiekierka> ##########         ####
10:48:37 <asiekierka> That's how a typical box connection can look like
10:48:47 <asiekierka> #'s define the space of boxes (it can be any shape, like a circle box)
10:48:49 <asiekierka> and . are nodes
10:49:27 <asiekierka> # defines the space of boxes
10:49:27 <asiekierka> . is a connection node. No commands can be executed during traveling through the node.
10:50:16 <oklopol> yeah it's like a toothbrush i like it
10:51:04 <asiekierka> I wonder whether use mirrors for rotating the IP, arrows to change the direction, or both
10:51:56 <oklopol> just have befunge's ?
10:52:03 <asiekierka> as in, both!?
10:52:13 <oklopol> ? is not both
10:52:16 <oklopol> just have befunge's "?"
10:52:24 <asiekierka> ? as in, random direction
10:52:27 <asiekierka> oh my god
10:52:27 <asiekierka> no
10:52:34 <asiekierka> It's meant to be an ircbot languag
10:52:35 <asiekierka> e
10:52:37 <asiekierka> not a piece of crap
10:52:59 <oklopol> a piece of COOL is more like it
10:53:14 <asiekierka> You know
10:53:18 <asiekierka> I'll have 4 commands
10:53:19 <asiekierka> \ D / ?
10:53:23 <asiekierka> \ and / are mirrors
10:53:31 <asiekierka> D is a deflector - reverses the IP direction
10:53:39 <asiekierka> ? is the random direction selector
10:54:48 <asiekierka> Now
10:54:58 <asiekierka> I think i will have only > for cell moving.
10:54:59 <asiekierka> And J
10:55:11 <asiekierka> J takes the value at the current cell and jumps to the position it specifies.
10:56:45 <asiekierka> U switches between signed and unsigned values.
10:57:31 <asiekierka> Also, the example of connection was meant to look like this:
10:57:33 <asiekierka> ##########         ####
10:57:33 <asiekierka> #        ...........  #
10:57:33 <asiekierka> ##########         ####
10:57:35 <asiekierka> No wait
10:57:42 <asiekierka> ##########         ####
10:57:43 <asiekierka> #        :.........:  #
10:57:43 <asiekierka> ##########         ####
10:57:46 <asiekierka> This would be better
10:57:51 <asiekierka> with : being the node entry/exit point
10:59:00 <asiekierka> Oh
10:59:07 <asiekierka> The bot has also a limitation of being in 1 channel
11:00:52 <asiekierka> #.:\/?>BDJOTU
11:01:01 <asiekierka> These are chars i used up for now
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11:06:15 <asiekierka> #.:,;+-\/?>^`BDFJOPTUadc
11:06:17 <asiekierka> oh great
11:06:21 <asiekierka> so many chars used up already
11:07:05 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/RWQj0i70.html
11:07:06 <Deewiant> too many instructions!!
11:07:07 <asiekierka> Oh great.
11:07:10 <asiekierka> You know
11:07:18 <asiekierka> i plan IRCot to be a pain to write an interpreter for.
11:07:27 <asiekierka> I plan to use up most of ASCII chars
11:07:34 <Deewiant> befunge was planned to be as hard to compile as possible
11:07:46 <asiekierka> My is planned to be as hard to interpret as possible
11:07:54 <asiekierka> While compiling should be easier :P
11:08:04 <Deewiant> that sounds impossible
11:08:10 <asiekierka> Take for example
11:08:13 <Deewiant> but good luck :-P
11:08:18 <asiekierka> Switch between Signed and Unsigned variables
11:08:24 <asiekierka> also
11:08:27 <asiekierka> check the draft
11:08:31 <asiekierka> please
11:08:35 <Deewiant> why would that be hard to interpret
11:08:55 <asiekierka> That's a draft
11:08:59 <asiekierka> I plan to add 2x more commands
11:09:40 <Deewiant> that doesn't make it hard :-P
11:09:46 <asiekierka> And there are 24 already
11:09:50 <asiekierka> Well
11:09:51 <asiekierka> ok
11:10:00 <Deewiant> befunge-98 has around 70-80 in just the standard
11:10:06 <Deewiant> (offhand, not sure of the exact count)
11:10:18 <Deewiant> and dozens more in fingerprints
11:10:22 <asiekierka> You know, i'm going to make this language just a language for ircbots
11:10:35 <Deewiant> that's fine
11:10:37 <asiekierka> It has BF interpreter capabilities already
11:10:45 <asiekierka> and BCT, possibly, with it's cell-basedness
11:10:54 <Deewiant> a language for coding ircbots or a language for being run on ircbots
11:11:07 <asiekierka> I think it is turing-complete... But wait. I don't have a looping system
11:11:10 <asiekierka> except mirrors
11:11:12 <asiekierka> But wait
11:11:18 <asiekierka> i must add a bridge command(s)
11:11:21 <Deewiant> you need an if based on current value
11:11:22 <asiekierka> one to skip over the next command
11:11:23 <Deewiant> or some such
11:11:34 <asiekierka> one to skip over the next command if the cell is nonzero
11:11:55 <Deewiant> IIRC that's what # in befunge was originally meant to do
11:12:28 <asiekierka> Now IF's
11:13:18 <fizzie> Actually ^bf was the command I was going to implement next in the silly Funge-98 bot, since it seems to be sort of a standard feature around here.
11:14:01 <asiekierka> Got to 28
11:14:07 <asiekierka> did equalness comparisons
11:14:41 <asiekierka> 29!
11:15:14 <AnMaster> morning
11:15:32 <Deewiant> afternoon
11:16:44 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/sGtVgf58.html
11:16:45 <asiekierka> Draft 2
11:16:47 <asiekierka> now 32 commands
11:17:15 <asiekierka> Loops are now possible.
11:17:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, fugne-98 bot?
11:17:22 <AnMaster> funge*
11:17:25 <asiekierka> I wonder if it's enough
11:17:25 <AnMaster> really!?
11:17:33 <asiekierka> yes, really.
11:17:39 <asiekierka> AnMaster: is my IRCot draft enough for now?
11:17:42 <asiekierka> What is it lacking?
11:17:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well yeah I slept badly so I woke up late
11:17:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.bef.txt
11:18:03 <fungot> I'm still very work-in-progress, though.
11:18:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, nice does it work
11:18:06 <AnMaster> oh ok
11:18:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, what fingerprints does it use?
11:18:22 <asiekierka> I'm making an ircbot programming language. xD
11:18:27 <fizzie> AnMaster; SOCK, STRN and FNGR.
11:18:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, err FNGR breaks the standard
11:18:40 <AnMaster> don't use it
11:18:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: not the latest one
11:18:44 <AnMaster> use FING if you have to
11:18:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh ok
11:18:48 <Deewiant> now it's just like MODE
11:18:57 <Deewiant> makes ( and ) work differently
11:18:59 <asiekierka> Also, is my draft 2 enough?
11:18:59 <AnMaster> hm
11:19:05 <asiekierka> Or not
11:19:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I will implement SOCK, but never FNGR
11:19:47 <fizzie> AnMaster; Well, I just use FNGR to remap C from STRN to Q, and to remove L from SOCK. The FNGR use can easily be replaced with something else.
11:19:49 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you said "hard to interpret, easy to compile"
11:19:53 <AnMaster> that is not possible I think
11:20:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, like FING? which I will implement
11:20:48 <fizzie> Well, yes. Actually FING would probably be easier-to-use, too.
11:21:25 <fizzie> I just happened across FNGR first.
11:21:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw, I don't know how good you know IRC protocol, but if you need help I can probably help, I wrote a few bots (bash, pascal, and a few more languages)
11:22:00 <AnMaster> as the rfc is kind of outdated
11:22:07 <asiekierka> mhm
11:22:07 <AnMaster> ie, doesn't reflect what is actually used
11:22:20 <asiekierka> But, i'm just asking whether my draft 2 is enough to make an irc bot now
11:22:22 <AnMaster> asiekierka, as for your language, interesting
11:22:26 <AnMaster> not sure
11:22:28 * AnMaster reads it
11:22:33 <asiekierka> The client must make the conection and the channel join
11:22:39 <asiekierka> Oh wait
11:22:42 <asiekierka> one command isn't these
11:22:42 <asiekierka> S
11:22:51 <asiekierka> Sends the current string on IRC, then removes it.
11:23:18 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I don't get the box concept
11:23:24 <AnMaster> care to give some better example
11:23:31 <AnMaster> say, hello world in it
11:23:54 <asiekierka> Yeah
11:24:17 <asiekierka> I'll make it 3 boxes
11:24:23 <asiekierka> The hello module, the world module
11:24:28 <asiekierka> and the send module
11:24:30 <asiekierka> It can be one box
11:24:36 <asiekierka> You can use only one box anyway
11:24:39 <asiekierka> heh
11:24:43 <fizzie> AnMaster; I'm not sure I'll bother to do anything fancy (like the 005-numeric parsing for options) because of the implementation language. Currently the only thing it understands about IRC protocol is the message syntax: :prefix, command, and space-separated arguments plus the ":arg" thing.
11:24:47 <asiekierka> one large box
11:24:48 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you lack division and multiplication, and also normal addition/subtraction
11:24:55 <AnMaster> and modulo (reminder)
11:24:57 <asiekierka> Yeah
11:25:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah ok
11:25:15 <asiekierka> And adding the current cell's character to the topmost string
11:25:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, my irc bot in bash was modular, did ssl and ipv6, and 005 and more
11:25:39 <AnMaster> actually it *does* not *did*
11:25:54 <AnMaster> just do /msg envbot -commands on here
11:26:10 <AnMaster> feel free to play around with it
11:26:16 <AnMaster> oh and everything is logged ;P
11:26:40 <fizzie> I'll get to that stuff when the bot actually does anything interesting. SOCK doesn't do ipv6 anyway, and SSL would be "pretty tricky" with plain Funge-98 without any specific extensions.
11:26:50 <AnMaster> yeah
11:26:58 <asiekierka> oh
11:27:01 <asiekierka> you know what i forgot
11:27:04 <asiekierka> ending the program
11:27:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, I did ssl using gnutls_cli, openssl -sclient or socat
11:27:22 <AnMaster> it could also use netcat or the bash built in fake device /dev/tcp
11:27:47 <AnMaster> note, debian disable /dev/tcp for some unknown reason
11:28:09 <fizzie> Yes, I noticed that when trying to use a Bash-based IRC client, had to patch it to use netcat.
11:29:11 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/syBs6f76.html
11:29:13 <asiekierka> Mmmkay.
11:29:13 <fizzie> (I was on a ridiculously expensive GPRS link and the Bash-based client was the smallest download. In retrospective, I probably should've just written something in Perl.)
11:29:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, well for envbot, you could just select another transport module
11:29:50 <asiekierka> That's how the boxes&nodes work.
11:29:53 <asiekierka> You can still use one large box
11:30:07 <asiekierka> But i also plan it to be like, you can redirect a node to another file
11:30:08 <AnMaster> asiekierka, hm... I see
11:30:16 <asiekierka> So you can split your IRCbot
11:30:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you are interested http://envbot.org/trac/wiki
11:30:39 <AnMaster> it is pretty advanced
11:30:43 <AnMaster> for being in bash
11:31:36 <AnMaster> oh and the joy of auto generated API docs (not doxygen, but a similar tool for bash, written in bash): http://envbot.org/apidocs/public-core/ :)
11:31:46 <fizzie> I'll look at it after I've written that ^bf. :p (Although theoretically speaking I shouldbe doing work now and not esolang stuff.)
11:31:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh ok
11:34:11 <AnMaster> (and as I said, it is here on freenode as the nick envbot, so just feel free to play around with that one if you want)
11:34:29 <AnMaster> (oh and it runs in a chroot, even though I think it is secure)
11:35:50 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/CirLHV36.html
11:36:09 <asiekierka> The list of chars used, the hello world example, new commands and another example
11:36:24 <asiekierka> This also shows you can cross nodes.
11:36:43 <asiekierka> Only normal addition/subtraction left
11:37:14 <AnMaster> ok
11:37:26 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you may want to make it possible to extend the language in the future
11:37:32 <AnMaster> for example file io
11:37:39 <asiekierka> Yeah
11:37:40 <AnMaster> so some way for loadable extensions?
11:37:44 <AnMaster> like Funge-98 got
11:38:00 <asiekierka> Don't know how to realize it
11:38:16 <asiekierka> #.:,;+-\/?>^`BDFJOPTUadc@%sgb"qpSX()*`~AE
11:38:19 <asiekierka> I used this so far
11:38:21 <AnMaster> in funge 98, A-Z are mapped to "reflect" by default, like everything that isn't a command
11:38:21 <AnMaster> but
11:38:26 <AnMaster> if you load a fingerprint
11:38:33 <AnMaster> they A-Z can get new meanings
11:38:44 <AnMaster> you can overload two as well
11:38:45 <asiekierka> What's the fingerprint format
11:38:45 <asiekierka> then
11:39:03 <asiekierka> hmm?
11:39:26 <asiekierka> If DLLs or something like that, i could make them cross-compatible with IRCot
11:39:27 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well fingerprints are something like "A does foo, B does bar" and so on, ie, a human readable spec, then a implementation can implement some fingerprints
11:39:33 <asiekierka> oh
11:39:35 <asiekierka> Yeah
11:39:38 <asiekierka> then i agree
11:39:44 <AnMaster> say, FPDP, which is floating point, double precision
11:39:46 <asiekierka> I can also make befunge fingerprints cross-compatible
11:39:56 <AnMaster> or, SOCK, socket operations
11:40:01 <asiekierka> But wait
11:40:04 <asiekierka> Wel
11:40:05 <asiekierka> well*
11:40:08 <AnMaster> or FILE, file streams
11:40:10 <AnMaster> there are quite a few
11:40:14 <asiekierka> Yeah, i'd use exactly the befunge way
11:40:30 <AnMaster> asiekierka, there are a catch though
11:40:36 <AnMaster> you can unload out of order
11:40:43 <AnMaster> or even when you haven't loaded one already
11:40:56 <asiekierka> oh
11:40:58 <AnMaster> NULL defines every char A-Z to mean reflect, ie the default
11:41:08 <AnMaster> why is that useful you may wonder
11:41:17 <asiekierka> Nope
11:41:26 <asiekierka> Well
11:41:26 <asiekierka> i could
11:41:31 <AnMaster> well, say you load some other fingerprint, that defines A, G, and O
11:41:32 <asiekierka> Show me the Funge-98's fingerprint command list
11:41:38 <asiekierka> Also
11:41:44 <AnMaster> then you could unload NULL to pop those instructions
11:41:45 <asiekierka> i'd allow both uppercase and lowercase chars to be mapped
11:41:58 <asiekierka> As 99-100% of IRC-specific commands i use are uppercase
11:42:17 <AnMaster> each letter A-Z got a stack
11:42:41 <AnMaster> unloading a fingerprint means pop one entry on each of those stacks for which the fingerprint implement some instruction
11:42:51 <AnMaster> even if it isn't itself that is unloaded
11:42:56 <asiekierka> Nope. I'd implement it like: l{FPNG} and u{FPNG}
11:43:02 <asiekierka> FPNG is the name of a fingerprint
11:43:04 <asiekierka> u unloads
11:43:04 <asiekierka> l loads
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11:43:13 <asiekierka> oh hi tusho
11:43:18 <asiekierka> You know, lawyers called me yesterday
11:43:18 <AnMaster> hi tusho
11:43:22 <asiekierka> They said i can't use the name "comic"
11:43:27 <asiekierka> since i didn't pay 500000$
11:43:36 <asiekierka> So i needed to change the name to
11:43:38 <asiekierka> SCREEBLES!
11:43:43 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/
11:43:49 <asiekierka> I made 15 comics so far
11:43:50 <AnMaster> asiekierka, Funge-108 (work in progress) will use URIs not 4 letter strings btw
11:43:55 <AnMaster> because of the collision problem
11:44:06 <tusho> asiekierka: toldys
11:44:08 <tusho> *toldya
11:44:10 <tusho> hi AnMaster
11:44:12 <tusho> i think I'll change the name of my comics to milkweasals
11:44:14 <tusho> with an a
11:44:16 <tusho> then rodger can't complain :D
11:44:25 <asiekierka> I'd allow for every kind of name
11:44:27 <AnMaster> bbiab
11:44:28 <asiekierka> whether it's string
11:44:29 <asiekierka> or number
11:44:31 <asiekierka> So
11:44:33 <asiekierka> YOU DECIDE xD
11:45:45 <asiekierka> But
11:45:46 <asiekierka> tusho
11:45:48 <asiekierka> check the 4 new comics
11:45:49 <asiekierka> on my site
11:45:58 <asiekierka> and http://rafb.net/p/yaP0tO25.html - IRCot Final draft (possibly)
11:46:09 <asiekierka> oh wait
11:46:12 <asiekierka> cut the example
11:46:14 <asiekierka> but who cares
11:46:25 <asiekierka> tusho? How are my 15 comics so far?
11:46:31 <tusho> i am reading them
11:46:32 <tusho> sheesh
11:46:38 <asiekierka> I'm also making a 16th comic: 10000versary!
11:46:47 <tusho> well
11:46:50 <tusho> none of them make any sense
11:46:54 <tusho> or are particularly funny
11:46:54 <tusho> so
11:46:55 <tusho> great!
11:47:01 <asiekierka> :/
11:47:06 <asiekierka> What about the unlucky comic?
11:47:13 <asiekierka> it was one of the better ones
11:48:06 <asiekierka> #13
11:48:11 <tusho> hm, I think I missed that
11:48:12 <tusho> :D
11:48:22 <tusho> ah yes
11:48:25 <tusho> #13 was very good
11:48:29 <asiekierka> :)
11:48:42 <asiekierka> Now i'm thinking with PORTALS!
11:48:50 <asiekierka> yeah, thinking with portals
11:48:55 <tusho> you've been thinking with portals ever since that game came out
11:48:56 <tusho> :p
11:49:00 <asiekierka> nope
11:49:04 <asiekierka> checked it out only a month ago
11:49:45 <tusho> [[Is this better then firefox?]] -- Comment on the reddit submission "Surf the web in style -- NCSA Mosaic for OpenVMS"
11:50:21 <AnMaster> hahah
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11:51:37 <asiekierka> Also
11:51:37 <asiekierka> tusho
11:51:42 <asiekierka> are you still making comics?
11:51:55 <tusho> yes, but I just got on here
11:51:56 <tusho> :P
11:54:41 <asiekierka> Making the 10000versary.
11:54:49 <asiekierka> It'll be great.
11:55:58 <asiekierka> oh
11:55:58 <asiekierka> tusho
11:56:04 <asiekierka> did you notice that the stickman in #15 has a SHADOW
11:56:17 <tusho> no
11:56:21 <tusho> even if I did that makes no sense
11:56:21 <tusho> :P
11:56:27 <asiekierka> I made it
11:56:29 <asiekierka> to show a sign
11:56:36 <asiekierka> Of some better Gee Eff Ex
12:03:18 <asiekierka> I'm nearly done with the 10000versary
12:04:08 <asiekierka> Yay
12:04:09 <asiekierka> Now scan
12:04:12 <asiekierka> add text
12:04:12 <asiekierka> And send
12:06:31 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
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12:09:02 <asiekierka> Finished the comic
12:09:04 <asiekierka> now upload
12:10:08 <asiekierka> ok, upped. http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles . Also, you can check the page for updates anytime. Since they should be more than once a day. I made 5 comics today!
12:10:35 <asiekierka> or wait
12:10:35 <asiekierka> no
12:10:38 <asiekierka> forgot to add the last text
12:11:48 <asiekierka> I'm sure you guys download the broken screebles and just wait until you have enough of them, and publish them.
12:11:55 <tusho> asiekierka: haha, i liked that
12:12:02 <asiekierka> Ok
12:12:03 <asiekierka> fixed
12:12:11 <tusho> a lot
12:12:12 <asiekierka> Did you like graphics?
12:12:21 <tusho> yes, except people's heads aren't green
12:12:22 <tusho> :D
12:12:24 <tusho> err
12:12:25 <tusho> yellow
12:12:35 <asiekierka> They're not wide enough
12:12:36 <asiekierka> actually
12:12:38 <asiekierka> Oh wait
12:12:42 <asiekierka> forgot to color 3 faces
12:12:45 <asiekierka> But who cares
12:12:48 <asiekierka> i'm too lazy to fix it
12:12:51 <asiekierka> since it'll take 11 minutes
12:12:52 <tusho> Well it's certainly 16 times better than #1 :p
12:12:55 <asiekierka> xD
12:13:00 <asiekierka> and 8 times better than #2
12:13:23 <asiekierka> and 4 times better than #4
12:13:24 <tusho> #2 was funny
12:13:34 <tusho> i just didn't get it because I couldn't see it properly
12:13:36 <tusho> at first
12:14:39 <asiekierka> oh
12:14:49 <asiekierka> but #16 was great despite i forgot to color 3 guys
12:15:02 <asiekierka> It took me half a hour to make :P
12:15:06 <asiekierka> But as it's an anniversary
12:15:10 <asiekierka> it must be a great screeble!
12:15:18 <asiekierka> If it had panels, this could very well be called a comic!
12:16:07 <tusho> asiekierka: what took half an hour? all the colouring
12:16:08 <tusho> ?
12:16:23 <asiekierka> the whole comic.
12:16:23 <tusho> ah
12:16:32 <tusho> asiekierka: well, an idea for making the colouring easier:
12:16:42 <asiekierka> hm?
12:16:44 <tusho> you could scan a B&W comic in, then colour it with photoshop or GIMP or paint
12:16:45 <tusho> or whatever
12:16:45 <asiekierka> Color on computer?
12:16:49 <asiekierka> Uh
12:16:49 <tusho> yeah
12:17:09 <asiekierka> I suck at doing anything graphics-wise on PC
12:17:14 <asiekierka> not counting simple files
12:17:16 <tusho> so do i
12:17:19 <tusho> doesn't stop me :D
12:17:23 <asiekierka> fixes*
12:17:23 <asiekierka> Well
12:17:24 <asiekierka> I can try to
12:17:28 <asiekierka> with #17
12:17:35 <asiekierka> But... I'd need to use different paper! :(
12:17:44 <tusho> asiekierka: i think it'd amount to basically using a lassoo tool around the edges, then using the fill tool
12:17:50 <tusho> no reason to use different paper
12:17:54 <asiekierka> Lassoo is already too much. :P
12:18:06 <tusho> asiekierka: lassoo = you click at the start then drag to the end
12:18:07 <tusho> :-P
12:18:11 <tusho> and it selects it.
12:18:11 <asiekierka> I know
12:18:17 <asiekierka> That's too hard for me, i can't do it good enough
12:18:25 <tusho> ah, you mean - shaky hand?
12:18:25 <asiekierka> It'll be worse painted than with hand
12:18:28 <asiekierka> yes
12:18:39 <tusho> well, all the lassoos I've known have let you set them to '+' or '-' mode
12:18:43 <tusho> which adds or reduces the current thing
12:18:48 <asiekierka> ???
12:18:50 <tusho> so you'd select the bits out of the lines with the '-' tool
12:18:54 <asiekierka> Even the MSpaint one?
12:18:56 <tusho> and they'd be deselected
12:18:59 <tusho> ah, probably not the ms paint one
12:19:02 <tusho> gimp's, definitely :P
12:19:12 <asiekierka> Not enough bandwidth to d/l it
12:19:14 <asiekierka> Possibly i could try
12:19:19 <asiekierka> To just scan in the pic
12:19:25 <asiekierka> and color it
12:19:28 <asiekierka> I can try.
12:21:39 <asiekierka> Well
12:21:42 <asiekierka> Depending on the pic
12:21:43 <asiekierka> it may work out
12:22:03 <asiekierka> Sometimes it scans the "crates" or however you call it
12:22:04 <asiekierka> sometimes not
12:23:39 <asiekierka> This time it did
12:23:41 <asiekierka> a bit
12:23:45 <asiekierka> And that looks BAD.
12:23:53 <asiekierka> That's why i'd need to change paper
12:24:19 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/asietest.PNG - look... out
12:24:37 <asiekierka> this looks bad
12:24:40 <asiekierka> I prefer handpainting
12:26:09 <asiekierka> and
12:26:13 <asiekierka> How's that?
12:26:15 <asiekierka> It may be useful
12:26:22 <asiekierka> for vector represantations of my characters
12:26:24 <asiekierka> Nothing else
12:26:33 <asiekierka> Tusho?
12:27:00 <tusho> bavk
12:27:01 <tusho> back
12:27:08 <asiekierka> look at how bad it looks
12:27:10 <asiekierka> The lines!
12:27:10 <tusho> asiekierka: well, use more subtle colours
12:27:13 <tusho> duh
12:27:13 <tusho> :P
12:27:15 <asiekierka> Yeah
12:27:15 <tusho> and
12:27:17 <asiekierka> that's not the problem
12:27:17 <tusho> where did those lines come from
12:27:18 <tusho> :\
12:27:22 <asiekierka> :P
12:27:26 <tusho> you should just scan it normally
12:27:26 <asiekierka> Check the earlier comics
12:27:30 <asiekierka> I scan it normally
12:27:33 <tusho> so
12:27:35 <asiekierka> I just don't use normal A4 paper
12:27:39 <tusho> yes
12:27:40 <tusho> but
12:27:41 <asiekierka> I used the same paper as for all of my comicks
12:27:44 <tusho> why wouldn't they look like regular squares
12:27:46 <tusho> instead of those weirdl ines
12:27:51 <tusho> did you save as 256 colours?
12:27:52 <tusho> it looks like it
12:27:55 <asiekierka> Since they're not 100% black
12:27:58 <asiekierka> I scanned as only black and white
12:28:02 <tusho> ah
12:28:04 <asiekierka> And the lines
12:28:05 <asiekierka> are gray
12:28:06 <asiekierka> :P
12:28:12 <tusho> well, don't scan just as black and white
12:28:13 <tusho> :P
12:28:21 <asiekierka> Then i can't paint it without the lassoo!
12:28:22 <asiekierka> You know
12:28:25 <asiekierka> i prefer handpainting
12:28:33 <asiekierka> For one, you can define shading without any PC painting knowledge
12:28:51 <asiekierka> :P
12:28:53 <asiekierka> You know
12:29:02 <asiekierka> You should at least try to make a comic by hand
12:29:05 <asiekierka> It's much more fun
12:29:10 <asiekierka> Also, you can make comics on a trip then
12:32:19 <asiekierka> Comic 17 made
12:32:36 <asiekierka> not upped yet
12:33:12 <tusho> asiekierka: i can't draw
12:33:41 <asiekierka> I thought i can't either.
12:33:45 <asiekierka> Screebles is the result. :P
12:34:39 <asiekierka> ok, screeble #17 upped :) Progressing fast :D
12:34:54 <asiekierka> wait no
12:34:55 <asiekierka> it's broken
12:34:57 <asiekierka> a little
12:35:35 <tusho> asiekierka: I have tried, though
12:35:36 <asiekierka> fixing...
12:35:44 <asiekierka> So try and show me the result, then
12:36:02 <tusho> asiekierka: it looks like a dog being eaten by a pig while being unhappy with a snake
12:36:05 <tusho> when it was meant to be a stick figure.
12:36:10 <asiekierka> Show it
12:36:19 <tusho> I haven't got a scanner.
12:36:27 <asiekierka> T_T
12:36:32 <asiekierka> make a photo of it
12:36:36 <asiekierka> also
12:36:38 <asiekierka> Comic 17 fixed
12:41:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Process 1 killed..
12:45:01 <asiekierka> Comic 18 done
12:45:03 <asiekierka> uploading soon
12:45:41 <asiekierka> upping (~~100kb)
12:45:41 <tusho> asiekierka: i gots me a site for my comics too
12:45:42 <tusho> http://tentaclerapture.com/milkweasal/
12:46:10 <asiekierka> You kno
12:46:12 <asiekierka> know*
12:46:14 <asiekierka> I made 18 comics
12:46:16 <asiekierka> and you only 8
12:46:23 <tusho> quality over quantity
12:46:28 <asiekierka> yeah right
12:46:31 <tusho> who cares how many there are
12:46:33 <asiekierka> like your comics have quality
12:46:41 <tusho> i like them, thank you very much
12:46:46 <tusho> and so do quite a few others.
12:46:47 <asiekierka> they do
12:46:53 <asiekierka> The same case with mine
12:46:56 <asiekierka> i like them
12:46:58 <tusho> yes
12:47:01 <asiekierka> and so do quite a few others
12:47:02 <tusho> but just because you have more of them
12:47:06 <tusho> doesn't mean yours are better
12:47:08 <asiekierka> doesnt mean i'm better
12:47:12 <asiekierka> Yeah
12:47:13 <tusho> exactly :P
12:47:26 <asiekierka> Well, why do you make comics?
12:47:36 <asiekierka> oh, 18 upped
12:48:07 <asiekierka> so
12:48:11 <tusho> 3 and 8 are my favourites
12:48:11 <asiekierka> why do you make comics?
12:48:20 <asiekierka> of mine? or of yours?
12:48:24 <tusho> asiekierka: i'm bored, wondering what bits of photoshop can do
12:48:26 <tusho> so I play about with them
12:48:30 <tusho> and make something really silly that amuses me
12:48:32 <tusho> and tada.
12:48:53 <asiekierka> I have too much free time, so i use the free time to make comics, which i share with people that like them
12:49:07 <asiekierka> Now with the whole Internet
12:49:14 <asiekierka> Also
12:49:19 <asiekierka> do you like my comics? I do like yours
12:49:26 <asiekierka> but they don't quite amuse me
12:49:34 <asiekierka> mostly because they take FOREVER to load on my dial-up
12:49:38 <asiekierka> but no worries
12:49:42 <asiekierka> i get back to 1megabit/second
12:49:45 <asiekierka> the 20th
12:50:41 <tusho> i like your comics
12:50:47 <tusho> but yeah, mine load a bit slowly
12:50:49 <tusho> which is odd
12:50:54 <tusho> i'll pngcrush them all
12:51:05 <asiekierka> xD
12:51:11 <asiekierka> I must make this into a comic
12:51:27 * tusho watches them crush
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12:56:24 <tusho> yay all crushed
12:56:44 <tusho> well
12:56:44 <tusho> almost
12:56:46 <tusho> now I have to upload them
12:57:01 <asiekierka> Now i'm going to upload #19
12:57:37 <tusho> asiekierka: they should be marginally smaller.
12:57:38 <tusho> :P
12:57:56 <tusho> Hmm
12:57:57 <tusho> No.
12:58:01 <tusho> They should be 500 internal server error
12:58:13 <asiekierka> :(
12:58:23 <asiekierka> But when they're smaller
12:58:26 <asiekierka> they're unreadable most of the time
12:58:29 <asiekierka> Still
12:58:33 <asiekierka> they're small (100kb at most)
12:58:35 <tusho> asiekierka: no, smaller file size
12:58:36 <tusho> :P
12:58:38 <tusho> not smaller size
12:58:45 <asiekierka> there's no JPGcrush
12:58:47 <asiekierka> is it
12:58:53 <asiekierka> is there*
12:59:21 <tusho> no
12:59:57 <asiekierka> so no chance
13:00:05 <asiekierka> PNGs are 3-5x larger as it is
13:01:59 <tusho> ok
13:02:00 <tusho> all crushed
13:02:16 <tusho> http://tentaclerapture.com/milkweasal/3 is definitely the best
13:02:34 <asiekierka> i gotta go now
13:02:37 <tusho> bye
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13:05:53 <tusho> hahahaha fizzie
13:06:05 <tusho> just wait until AnMaster tells you to use cfunge
13:06:09 <tusho> for extra fast fungot!
13:06:34 <oklopol> a little *too* fast
13:06:38 <tusho> ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am fungot, hear me roar.
13:06:38 <fungot> I am fungot, hear me roar.
13:06:45 <tusho> ^raw PRIVMSG #esoteric :" test
13:06:46 <fungot> " test
13:08:50 <fizzie> cfunge lacks SOCK at currently, I think. But he said he'll be implementing it.
13:09:50 <fizzie> I've got ,.+-<> of the Brainfuck interpreter part implemented, just needs [] and then probably a large amount of fixing as there'll probably be a bug.
13:11:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, I will indeed, as well as FING
13:11:52 <AnMaster> however not today, I got a bad cold
13:20:16 <asiekierka> Hey
13:20:20 <asiekierka> what about IRCot?
13:20:23 <asiekierka> The final draft
13:21:23 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/yaP0tO25.html
13:21:47 <tusho> fizzie: can you add arbitary BF execution
13:21:52 <asiekierka> tusho?
13:21:58 <tusho> just filter out fingerprint loads - that is, (
13:21:59 <asiekierka> It's my IRCbot esolang
13:22:03 <tusho> and then pass it to rcfunge
13:22:07 <tusho> with an execution fingerprint
13:22:12 <tusho> asiekierka: cool
13:22:20 <asiekierka> I wonder if it can be considered "finished"
13:22:37 <asiekierka> I wanted to write an IRCbot for #esoteric in it
13:22:47 <asiekierka> But first i musta get an interpreter
13:22:50 <asiekierka> And who'll make one?
13:23:25 <tusho> you
13:23:38 <asiekierka> *owned* What?
13:23:42 <asiekierka> I don't even know the IRC protocol!
13:24:46 <tusho> :p
13:26:13 <asiekierka> So what can i do?
13:27:01 <asiekierka> Wait until someone writes me an interpreter i guess
13:27:17 <asiekierka> oh
13:27:19 <asiekierka> going off for a while
13:27:22 -!- asiekierka has quit.
13:32:34 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:33:26 -!- AnMaster has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:35:15 <fizzie> Bleh. I made the Brainfuck interpreter reasonably compact, but now I noticed it doesn't add a \r\n at the end of the reply. Now I need to rearrange stuff to make it fit.
13:38:17 <tusho> fizzie: This is the problem with befunge. :P
13:40:37 <fizzie> I think I'll just do the unelegant thing and stick the \r\n to the buffer after every . command, since there's more space there.
13:47:34 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving.").
13:49:21 -!- Sgeo has joined.
13:49:24 -!- fungot has quit ("upgrade!").
13:50:14 -!- fungot has joined.
13:50:17 <fizzie> ^bf +[,.]!testing
13:50:17 <fungot> testing
13:50:40 <fizzie> Updated the http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.bef.txt file too, so you can see the Brainfuck interpreter in all its glory.
13:51:43 <fizzie> Also that cat program is the only Brainfuck program I have tested with, it might break really badly with others. There's a 1000-cell tape, and tape cells behave like fungespace cells, for obvious reasons.
13:55:00 <fizzie> Heh, and ^bf works on channel only, since it takes the PRIVMSG dest argument and uses that for the reply, so if it's a privmsg to the bot, it ends up sending the output to itself.
13:56:06 <oklopol> been there
13:56:19 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
13:56:31 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.!lol
13:56:47 <fizzie> Hmm-heh. I wonder what it does.
13:56:51 <tusho> ^bf ,[.,]!your mom
13:57:01 <tusho> fizzie: Whatever it was, it just broke fungot.
13:57:15 <fizzie> Well, it got lost somewhere in the Brainfuck interpreter, I think.
13:57:28 <fizzie> Maybe it needs some more testing.
13:58:08 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:00:42 <fizzie> < is broken. :p
14:00:49 <fizzie> Well, it's only one instruction out of eight.
14:00:56 -!- dogface has joined.
14:01:33 -!- jix has joined.
14:01:42 <fizzie> Ah, it's missing a \ in there.
14:04:51 -!- kar8nga has joined.
14:05:33 <tusho> fizzie: you are crazy, and amazing
14:14:40 <RodgerTheGreat> fizzie: wow. kudos for creating a befunge program with reasonably sane formatting and commenting.
14:18:24 <fizzie> Well, the brainfuck interpreter is less sane. And buggy.
14:20:19 <fizzie> It manages to hang up at that . there. Strange, since the cat program worked.
14:20:32 <RodgerTheGreat> hunh.
14:21:21 <fizzie> Hrm. The . is gone, and there's a 0 there. That's curious.
14:21:38 <Deewiant> anti-kudos for not obfuscating the program like any reasonable Befunge programmer :-P
14:22:03 <fizzie> I was thinking of implementing the features first, then turning it into an unreadable block later.
14:22:18 <Deewiant> no, you make it into an unreadable block as you go
14:22:47 <fizzie> That's what I usually do, but then it's impossible to modify later. Or at least really hard.
14:23:17 <Deewiant> I can still modify my mycology code fairly well, maybe I'm just insane
14:23:29 <fizzie> Mycology is actually pretty readable.
14:23:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster would disagree :-)
14:25:00 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
14:25:40 <fizzie> Well, maybe not all of it. But I did find something out simply by searching for the corresponding message and looking around that.
14:26:09 <Deewiant> I would say that some parts of it are actually pretty unreadable, most infamously the code which pretty-prints all of the output of 'y'
14:35:11 -!- fungot has joined.
14:35:19 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
14:35:19 <fungot> A
14:35:27 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+[.]
14:35:27 <fungot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ...
14:36:13 <fizzie> It does not (yet) have any sort of cycle limit so ^bf +[] will kill it.
14:36:51 <dogface> ^bf +++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>[.]
14:36:51 <fungot> QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ ...
14:36:56 <dogface> I am enlightened.
14:37:24 <dogface> ^bf +++++++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>[.]
14:37:24 <fungot> yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy ...
14:39:11 <Deewiant> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.
14:39:12 <fungot> Hello World!
14:50:02 <M0ny> yeah
14:50:13 <M0ny> ^bf ++.
14:50:26 <M0ny> ahem...
14:50:39 <M0ny> i'm going to the cinema
14:50:40 <M0ny> bue
14:50:42 <M0ny> buy**
14:50:44 <M0ny> bye****
14:50:48 -!- M0ny has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire...").
14:51:44 <fizzie> I wonder what's with "++.". It's not a very printable character, but it still should've done something.
14:54:14 <dogface> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
14:54:14 <fungot>  
14:55:35 -!- fungot has quit ("upgrade time!").
14:55:53 -!- fungot has joined.
14:55:58 <dogface> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
14:55:58 <fungot>  
14:56:05 <fizzie> ^bf +[]
14:56:07 <fungot>  ...out of time!
14:56:12 <dogface> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
14:56:12 <fungot>  ...out of time!
14:56:15 <fizzie> Err.
14:56:21 * dogface blinks
14:56:21 <fizzie> I forgot to zero the cycle counter. :p
14:56:26 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:56:43 <dogface> That's why whatever programming language you're using sucks and you should use Haskell instead?
14:57:07 <fizzie> A Haskell bot is still not quite the same thing as a Funge-98 bot.
14:58:31 -!- AnMaster has joined.
14:58:41 -!- fungot has joined.
14:58:51 <fizzie> ^bf +[]
14:58:54 <fungot>  ...out of time!
14:59:01 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
14:59:01 <fungot> A
14:59:07 <fizzie> That's better.
14:59:43 <fizzie> Could you ever get Haskell code as elegant as http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.bef.txt ? I think not!
15:09:09 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf +++++++++++++++++[->++>++++>+++++>++++++>+++++++<<<<<]>>>-.>++.-------.>---.<<<<+++++.>>>>-.<<<<-------.>--.>>>-.<.++++++++.+++++.--------.>+++.<---.++++++++.
15:09:09 <fungot> That's Brainfuck
15:09:18 <KingOfKarlsruhe> thats pretty cool hehehe
15:09:48 <fizzie> optbot; What do you think of fungot?
15:09:49 <optbot> fizzie: :)
15:10:00 <fizzie> optbot; Oh, you like it?
15:10:00 <optbot> fizzie: There's a nice mushroom.
15:10:13 <fizzie> I guess that's positive.
15:14:36 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[->+>+++<<]>>----------------------------------------------------------------------.<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++.------------.+++++++++++.
15:14:37 <fungot> /quit
15:17:01 <tusho> Hmm.
15:17:13 <tusho> ^bf +++++++++++++.+.
15:17:29 <tusho> fizzie: If I made a program outputting "\nQUIT :a", fungot would have been fucked up by now.
15:17:30 <tusho> :D
15:17:46 <fizzie> Sure, but you might as well say ^raw QUIT :a.
15:18:17 <fizzie> The brainfuck . could still filter out newlines and such, though.
15:18:20 <dogface> ^raw QUIT :a
15:18:20 -!- fungot has quit ("a").
15:18:24 <dogface> Wow, it worked.
15:18:45 <fizzie> fongot's a trusting little fellow.
15:18:55 <fizzie> fun, not fon.
15:19:24 -!- fungot has joined.
15:21:19 <tusho> Hmm.
15:21:34 <tusho> ^raw PRIVMSG NickServ :RELEASE
15:21:49 <tusho> fizzie: Was it even registered?
15:21:53 <fizzie> Nope.
15:21:56 <tusho> Heh.
15:22:11 <tusho> ^raw JOIN #ubuntu
15:22:17 <tusho> ^raw PRIVMSG #ubuntu :wher are the hack
15:22:20 <tusho> ^raw PRIVMSG #ubuntu :wher are the hack codes???
15:22:30 <tusho> (am I evil?)
15:23:11 <Deewiant> ^raw PART #ubuntu
15:23:22 <tusho> [15:22:41] <jrib> fungot: do you have a question about ubuntu support?
15:23:27 <tusho> [15:22:54] <kenkku_> fungot: what kind of codes do you mean?
15:23:37 <AnMaster> tusho, stop that
15:24:09 <AnMaster> :P
15:24:47 <fizzie> Heh, poor #ubuntu, always a target of all kinds of sillitude.
15:25:23 <AnMaster> ^raw MODE fungot +i
15:25:43 <AnMaster> to prevent ppl seeing #esoteric listed in /whois :P
15:26:00 <AnMaster> unless they are also on #esoteric as well
15:26:10 <tusho> ^raw PRIVMSG kenkku_ :the code of hack
15:26:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, what language is it coded in?
15:26:16 <tusho> AnMaster: funge-98
15:26:19 <AnMaster> ah
15:26:29 <tusho> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.bef.txt
15:26:33 <AnMaster> tusho, stop using it for spamming please
15:26:47 <tusho> AnMaster: if fungot stays trusting, then that's what it'll get :-)
15:27:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, .bf (befunge 93) and .b98 (befunge 98), .bef is not for befunge
15:27:20 <Deewiant> ^raw QUIT :I am a bot, a jerk was abusing me. Gone for now.
15:27:20 -!- fungot has quit ("I am a bot, a jerk was abusing me. Gone for now.").
15:27:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant++
15:27:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: there is no requirement that it be .bf or .b98, it's just a convention
15:28:03 <AnMaster> yeah
15:28:05 <AnMaster> recommended
15:28:13 <fizzie> bsmnt_bot has been pretty much as trusting for long long periods of time; I wonder why my poor fungot got such treatment.
15:28:34 <fizzie> I always confuse .bf with Brainfuck, even though that one has the .b extension.
15:29:40 <tusho> fizzie: Because it's new,
15:29:51 <tusho> You should have seen EsoShell.
15:29:58 <tusho> (A VM had a shell running via IRC.)
15:30:02 <tusho> rm -rf /s all over the place.
15:33:31 <dogface> I wonder if I'll ever get around to writing bashbot.
15:33:38 * dogface searches his dad's bookshelf for a bash book
15:34:19 <AnMaster> dogface, http://envbot.org is my modular irc bot in bash :P
15:35:02 <dogface> I want to write a bash clone in Haskell or something. :-)
15:39:40 <tusho> /y?a+r+(gh)?!*/
15:39:41 <tusho> discuss
15:40:35 <dogface> What does the ! do?
15:40:43 <dogface> Oh, it means !, doesn't it?
15:40:47 <tusho> Yes.
15:41:21 <tusho> /y?a+r+(gh*)?!*/
15:42:33 <dogface> Replace y?a with ([Yy]?a+|Aa*)
15:42:42 <dogface> Yarr!
15:47:55 <AnMaster> If I make an esoteric bot, that is like egobot, bsmnt_bot or fungot, what should I call it?
15:47:59 <AnMaster> it would be coded in erlang
15:48:22 <dogface> Call it Erlong.
15:48:40 <dogface> Or Oerjang.
15:49:12 <tusho> AnMaster: Redundant.
15:49:13 <tusho> :)
15:49:26 <AnMaster> why erlong?
15:50:09 <AnMaster> dogface, ?
15:50:22 <dogface> The 'o' for 'bot'.
15:50:56 <AnMaster> -NickServ- Information on otpbot (account tusho):
15:50:58 <AnMaster> what?
15:51:05 <AnMaster> that was another one I was thinking about
15:51:11 <tusho> AnMaster: what about it?
15:51:17 <AnMaster> otp is a central concept in erlang
15:51:21 <tusho> oh, yes
15:51:23 <AnMaster> Open Telecom Platform
15:51:27 <tusho> well, otpbot was the old name for optbot
15:51:27 <optbot> tusho: The compiler is *remarkably* less efficient, as well.
15:51:29 <tusho> so nyaaaah.
15:51:35 <tusho> (Oerjan's Terrible Puns Bot)
15:51:36 <AnMaster> tusho, care to give it away?
15:51:39 <tusho> AnMaster: no
15:51:42 <AnMaster> tusho, why not?
15:51:49 <tusho> it is officially Oerjan's Terrible Puns Bot
15:51:52 <tusho> we just kept typoing the nick
15:51:52 <AnMaster> blergh
15:51:55 <tusho> AnMaster: besides, it's too similar
15:52:03 <AnMaster> Open Telecom Platform Bot
15:52:11 <AnMaster> tusho, yeah too similar
15:52:27 <AnMaster> still I got the feeling there is some bad pun hidden in "erlong"
15:52:30 <AnMaster> that I don't get
15:52:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: which reminds me, the frontend protocol needs some sort of a name
15:53:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah, and I'm bad at names
15:53:12 <Deewiant> hmm
15:53:14 <AnMaster> "Funge frontend protocol"?
15:53:16 <AnMaster> maybe?
15:53:36 <AnMaster> what is wrong with that name?
15:53:43 <Deewiant> something short would be nice, and FFP is a common acronym
15:53:49 <Deewiant> or at least a short alternative
15:53:50 <AnMaster> well no ideas then
15:54:03 <Deewiant> like "Foo: the Funge frontend protocol", but of course not "Foo" :-P
15:54:06 <dogface> FFP sounds bloggable.
15:54:47 -!- MikeRiley has joined.
15:54:51 <dogface> Eastern Telecom Routing Agency Bot.
15:55:01 <Deewiant> "Mycology" would be a good name for it but someone already took that ;-P
15:56:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hahah :P
15:57:43 <Deewiant> hmm, Mycorrhiza sounds cool and makes some kind of sense
15:57:47 <AnMaster> err
15:57:59 * Deewiant is browsing Wikipedia
15:58:00 <AnMaster> sounds like some kind of stomach sickness
15:58:01 <AnMaster> :P
15:58:08 <Deewiant> Greek for fungus roots coined by Frank, 1885
15:58:20 <Deewiant> a symbiotic association between a fungus and the roots of a plant.
15:58:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well to me it sounds like some kind of stomach sickness
15:58:34 <Deewiant> does that matter? :-P
15:58:41 <dogface> What's a symbiotic association between a fungus and an algae?
15:58:59 <Deewiant> lichen?
15:59:03 <dogface> Use it.
15:59:20 <Deewiant> hmm, that's pretty good actually
15:59:32 <Deewiant> and maybe AnMaster doesn't think it sounds like a stomach sickness :-P
15:59:42 <AnMaster> lichen, fine with me
15:59:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:00:04 <AnMaster> dogface, ok, I registered erlong, now what was the pun in the name
16:00:04 <AnMaster> tell me
16:00:26 <dogface> The 'o' stands for 'bot'. Also, it contains the word 'long'.
16:00:34 <AnMaster> and why is "long" fun?
16:00:50 <fizzie> It refers to a PENIS, I think. Usually things on IRC do.
16:00:57 <AnMaster> sigh
16:01:01 * AnMaster goes to drop then
16:01:12 <dogface> That was not the intention.
16:02:15 <AnMaster> so someone can come up with a non-sexual name for it?
16:02:59 <dogface> "Erlong" is not sexual!
16:03:10 <fizzie> It is now.
16:03:15 <AnMaster> what fizzie said
16:03:18 * dogface presses fizzie
16:03:21 <AnMaster> anyway you got some good idea fizzie?
16:03:30 <dogface> Orlang, then.
16:03:39 <AnMaster> well I wouln't trust you any more
16:03:39 <dogface> The 'o' still stands for 'bot'.
16:03:43 <dogface> :-P
16:03:50 <AnMaster> sounds like "oral" doesn't it?
16:03:56 <AnMaster> too close IMO
16:03:58 <fizzie> Not really. I got 'fungot' by just trying to combine funge and bot, obviously. A somewhat uninspired name.
16:04:16 <dogface> Rlng. It's a one-syllable word only linguists can pronounce.
16:04:17 <fizzie> Erlot. Sounds like "harlot".
16:04:31 <AnMaster> harlot? I don't know that word
16:04:39 <dogface> "Borlang" would be fun.
16:04:44 <fizzie> 1. prostitute, cocotte, whore, harlot, bawd, tart, cyprian, fancy woman, working girl, sporting lady, lady of pleasure, woman of the street -- (a woman who engages in sexual intercourse for money)
16:04:47 * AnMaster slaps dogface
16:04:56 <dogface> Borlang Delphin.
16:05:02 <AnMaster> augh!
16:05:23 <dogface> Earl.
16:05:36 <AnMaster> -NickServ- Information on earl (account earl):
16:05:36 <AnMaster> -NickServ- Registered : Aug 27 14:40:17 2005 (2 years, 50 weeks, 3 days, 00:25:15 ago)
16:05:36 <AnMaster> -NickServ- Last addr  : n=earl@strain.at
16:05:36 <AnMaster> -NickServ- Last seen  : now
16:05:40 <AnMaster> no good
16:06:11 <AnMaster> esoerl for esoteric and erlang maybe?
16:06:32 <AnMaster> what do you think?
16:08:33 <AnMaster> dogface, fizzie ^
16:09:03 <dogface> Bearl.
16:09:10 <AnMaster> doesn't real fit at all
16:09:49 <dogface> erbot. Or ergot.
16:10:20 <dogface> ergot is perfect, in fact. Use it.
16:10:35 <dogface> Or lichen.
16:10:35 <AnMaster> also registered already
16:10:41 <AnMaster> well esoerl for now
16:11:01 <dogface> Or mildew...
16:18:53 -!- tusho_ has joined.
16:19:22 <tusho_> [16:00:53] <fizzie> It refers to a PENIS, I think. Usually things on IRC do.
16:19:38 <tusho_> a PENIS, of course
16:19:46 <tusho_> not a penis
16:19:50 <tusho_> but a PENIS
16:20:10 -!- tusho has quit (Nick collision from services.).
16:20:12 -!- tusho_ has changed nick to tusho.
16:20:14 <tusho> test
16:38:06 -!- MikeRiley has quit ("Leaving").
16:48:45 -!- fungot has joined.
16:50:09 <fungot> Thank's to tusho's... "creative" ways of using ^raw, I made that one work only for me. But the Brainfuck-running should work just as well (or poorly) as before, except that many non-printable chars are filtered.
16:51:25 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++++.
16:51:25 <fungot> .
16:51:49 <fizzie> I think it turns all characters that are <=30 to a '.'. But I might be wrong.
16:57:17 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
16:57:17 <fungot> A
16:57:24 <fizzie> You can still crash it with ^bf if you make a suitably short quine-style program that outputs "^bf <the program itself>" and send that as a privmsg. It'll end up replying to itself and probably excess-flooding.
16:57:30 <fizzie> Let's see how long that'll take.
16:57:43 <tusho> um fizzie
16:57:47 <tusho> you don't get your own messages via irc
16:57:59 <fizzie> Yes you do. If you send a privmsg to your own nick.
16:58:05 <tusho> Oh, true.
16:58:12 <tusho> Well, that'd be really hard to make. :P
16:58:26 <tusho> fizzie: Add ^bef!
16:58:30 <tusho> For befunge-98.
16:58:45 <tusho> Just filter out any ( characters in it (so no fingerprints), and use a shell-calling fingerprint to run rcfunge
17:00:17 <AnMaster> login_passwd(Sock, [])       -> noreply;
17:00:17 <AnMaster> login_passwd(Sock, Password) -> send(Sock, ["PASS ", Password]).
17:00:21 <AnMaster> very nice :)
17:44:04 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
18:01:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has changed nick to nice.
18:01:18 -!- nice has changed nick to KingOfKarlsruhe.
18:19:17 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:19:22 <asiekierka> Hi
18:19:44 <asiekierka> Tusho, well, all my comics are <=110kb, except #14, which was 140kb, now is 113kb.
18:21:00 <asiekierka> The smallest one is 15 (34kb). Then 10 (38kb.) Comic 17 is 39kb, 19 is 41kb.
18:21:37 <asiekierka> Also, how's funge-98 bot?
18:21:44 <asiekierka> And... IRCot...
18:21:51 <asiekierka> I need someone to implement an interpreter for it.
18:21:57 <tusho> pay me and I will
18:21:58 <tusho> :P
18:22:03 <asiekierka> :(
18:22:15 <asiekierka> I just wanted to create a #esoteric bot in it
18:22:31 <fizzie> asiekierka; Not much new in fungot. Had to make ^raw work only for me, because tusho was spamming #ubuntu with it. Some small fixes in ^bf so that infinite loops and infinite-output-generating programs don't mess it up.
18:22:46 <tusho> spamming = two lines :P
18:23:03 <asiekierka> ^bf ++++++[->++++++<].
18:23:04 <fungot> .
18:23:28 <asiekierka> it should be $.
18:23:36 <asiekierka> . is 46
18:23:40 <asiekierka> ^bf ++++++[->+++++<].
18:23:40 <fungot> .
18:23:44 <asiekierka> What?
18:23:48 <fizzie> You have a bug in your program.
18:23:49 <asiekierka> ^bf ,
18:23:56 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++[->+++++<]>.
18:23:56 <fungot> .
18:24:08 <asiekierka> ^bf ++++++[->++++++<]>.
18:24:08 <fungot> $
18:24:11 <asiekierka> Sure i did. :P
18:24:17 <asiekierka> ^bf ++++++[->++++++++<]>.
18:24:17 <fungot> 0
18:24:26 <asiekierka> ^bf .+[.+]
18:24:26 <fungot> ............................... !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~������������������������������������������������������������������������������� ...
18:24:31 <asiekierka> YAY FOR ASCII
18:24:34 <fizzie> It filters all <30 characters to a '.' to avoid getting newlines.
18:24:35 <asiekierka> xDD
18:24:55 <asiekierka> ^bf ,[.,]!poop
18:24:56 <fungot> poop
18:24:58 <asiekierka> Yay
18:25:08 <fizzie> tusho; Also there was that privmsg to that one guy. He also replied (apparently a bit confused) to the bot privately.
18:25:30 <fizzie> Spoke Finnish, too.
18:25:31 <tusho> The one privmsg. :P
18:25:43 <fizzie> That's still three messages too many.
18:25:47 <asiekierka> I'd so like to make an IRCbot in Brainf**k
18:25:53 <asiekierka> or at least a little modification of it
18:25:57 <tusho> you acn.
18:25:59 <tusho> *can
18:26:08 <tusho> fizzie: people used bsmnt_bot to do silly spam too you know
18:26:15 <asiekierka> I did, for example. :D
18:26:20 <asiekierka> Using PM and !bf
18:26:26 <asiekierka> until i found out about echo
18:26:29 <asiekierka> xDDD
18:27:14 <fizzie> Well, probably. But I thought involving the #ubuntu folks was a bit unnecessary. Anyway.
18:27:28 <asiekierka> Well... I must make a BFircbot. It'll have 3 new functions though.
18:27:43 <fungot> optbot; What do you think?
18:27:43 <optbot> fungot: I'm looking at the spec, but I promise nothing
18:27:44 <asiekierka> : - Output the null-terminated string starting from the current cell to IRC
18:28:04 <asiekierka> ; - Input a null-terminated string to BF, starting from the current cell.
18:28:33 <asiekierka> Well, only 2 it seems
18:28:35 <fizzie> You could just have , and . speak to the IRC server, that's all the I/O a bot needs.
18:28:42 <asiekierka> But you know
18:28:47 <asiekierka> finalization of an IRC message.
18:29:07 <asiekierka> i must finalize it :P
18:29:13 <asiekierka> oh wait
18:29:18 <asiekierka> Directly to the IRC server, eh?
18:29:25 <asiekierka> As in, not through some crazy protocolness?
18:29:32 <asiekierka> Should prove a hard beast
18:29:33 <asiekierka> :P
18:29:45 <asiekierka> But it'll be 22 times harder
18:29:51 <fizzie> No, I mean, obviously you need to speak the IRC protocol, but you can do that with Brainfuck code just fine. Well, with a lot of work.
18:29:58 <asiekierka> yeah
18:30:05 <asiekierka> And i don't want another Lost Kingdom-size
18:30:15 <asiekierka> That's why i want to implement ;:
18:30:20 <asiekierka> ,. will speak to the irc protocol though
18:30:29 <asiekierka> You set a default channel/nickname, too
18:30:48 <asiekierka> So it'll be easier for newbies.
18:30:50 <fizzie> fungot doesn't use anything IRC-specific, just the SOCK fingerprint to open a TCP connection. Of course Funge-98 is few bazillion times easier to code with. And I cheated a bit and used the STRN fingerprint too.
18:30:52 <asiekierka> As for ,.
18:30:58 <asiekierka> they'll be able to use any TCP
18:31:05 <asiekierka> So, BF HTTP viewer comes soon xD
18:31:29 <asiekierka> So, if you use IRC, you state that in parameters, and then ;: become active.
18:31:37 <asiekierka> If you use TCP, ;: are inactive, and you just use ,.
18:31:42 <asiekierka> Oh wait
18:31:46 <asiekierka> I need some delay stuff
18:31:59 <asiekierka> ! - Delay for (current cell) 1/10th of a seconds
18:32:10 <fizzie> What's that for?
18:32:21 <asiekierka> So i don't make my PC go all 99% CPU
18:33:02 <asiekierka> Also, this IRCbot will be a piece of mess with ;: so what would it be without it
18:33:15 <fizzie> I think ,/; could just do a blocking read, waiting for incoming data to appear. That's (again) pretty much what fungot does.
18:33:37 <asiekierka> Yeah
18:33:39 <asiekierka> this can happen too
18:33:44 <asiekierka> Good idea
18:33:45 <dogface> ^bf ++[.++]
18:33:45 <fungot> ............... "$&(*,.02468:<>@BDFHJLNPRTVXZ\^`bdfhjlnprtvxz|~����������������������������������������������������������������
18:34:06 <dogface> Why, it's just getting shorter.
18:34:18 <dogface> ^bf +[.++++]
18:34:19 <fungot> ........!%)-159=AEIMQUY]aeimquy}��������������������������������<CTCP>
18:34:39 <dogface> >:-)
18:35:27 <dogface> Wait...
18:35:55 <fizzie> Engfeh, the I/O filtering thing is not really correct right now, since it checks for cell value >=30, but the socket-writing takes the least-significant byte.
18:36:20 -!- Tritonio_ has joined.
18:36:21 <dogface> You figured that out before I figured... something else out.
18:36:24 <fizzie> I think I'll make brainfuck cells wrap-around at 255.
18:36:28 <dogface> ^bf [.++++]
18:36:39 <dogface> ^bf ++++[.++++]
18:36:39 <fungot> ....... $(,048<@DHLPTX\`dhlptx|��������������������������������
18:36:50 <dogface> Oh, null termination, I bet.
18:36:52 <asiekierka> can i do an infini-loop?
18:36:52 -!- fungot has quit ("better take this offline before tusho gets EXPLOITERYING").
18:36:54 <dogface> Maybe.
18:36:59 <asiekierka> :(
18:37:19 <asiekierka> Get him back
18:37:19 <dogface> Connect to normish.org and do a forkbomb!
18:37:21 <asiekierka> Please
18:37:23 <dogface> Disclaimer: please don't.
18:37:44 -!- fungot has joined.
18:37:53 <asiekierka> !bf +[>+.<]
18:37:55 <fizzie> Well, there you have it. Didn't do the proper filtering yet.
18:37:56 <asiekierka> ^bf +[>+.<]
18:37:57 <fungot> .............................. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~�������������������������������������������������������������������������������� ...
18:38:07 <asiekierka> Yay
18:38:36 <fizzie> It terminates the program when there's more than 15*15 characters of output.
18:38:40 <asiekierka> ^bf ++++++[->++++++<]>>+[<.>]
18:38:40 <fungot> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ...
18:38:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, very nice
18:38:59 <fizzie> Also there's a limit of something like 10000 Brainfuck cycles.
18:39:01 <fizzie> ^bf +[]
18:39:03 <fungot>  ...out of time!
18:39:04 <asiekierka> ^bf ++++++[->++++++<]>>+[<.>[[[[[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]]]]]]
18:39:06 <fungot> $ ...out of time!
18:39:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, can it do module loading using i/o too?
18:39:14 <asiekierka> ^bf ++++++[->++++++<]>>+[<.>[[[[[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][.][][][][][][][]]]]]]
18:39:16 <fungot> $ ...out of time!
18:39:20 <fizzie> AnMaster; well, no. :)
18:39:23 <asiekierka> ^bf ++++++[->++++++<]>>+[<.>[[[[[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][.][][][][][][][]]]]]]
18:39:25 <fungot> $ ...out of time!
18:39:28 <asiekierka> Duh.
18:39:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, module loading on demand would be fun!
18:39:44 <AnMaster> fungot, is it multi tasking?
18:40:03 <dogface> Does it do any optimization?
18:40:07 <asiekierka> ^bf >++++++++++>+>+[    [+++++[>++++++++<-]>.<++++++[>--------<-]+<<<]>.>>[        [-]<[>+<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-            [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<<<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>    ]<<<]
18:40:09 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987. ...out of time!
18:40:15 <asiekierka> :(
18:40:21 <AnMaster> yeah does it?
18:40:40 <fizzie> AnMaster; No multitasking. I'm not sure how to use concurrent funge for that, since I guess the blocking socket-read would stop all the IPs.
18:40:54 <AnMaster> ^bf [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[-]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
18:40:59 <AnMaster> eh?
18:41:02 <AnMaster> ^bf [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[-]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]].
18:41:02 <fungot> .
18:41:06 <AnMaster> what?
18:41:13 <AnMaster> ^bf .
18:41:13 <fungot> .
18:41:15 <AnMaster> err
18:41:20 <AnMaster> that is odd
18:41:21 <asiekierka>  [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[-]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]].
18:41:25 <asiekierka> Woo
18:41:27 <AnMaster> it should be a null byte
18:41:32 <fizzie> AnMaster; The 0 character is filtered to '.'.
18:41:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | time to rewrite the s**t again.
18:41:33 <asiekierka> I think i crashed it!
18:41:34 <AnMaster> asiekierka, no ^bf in front...
18:41:37 <asiekierka> oh
18:41:38 <AnMaster> don't be stupid
18:41:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah
18:41:44 <asiekierka> Lemme try
18:41:44 <asiekierka> Please
18:41:49 <fizzie> AnMaster; You can't output a null byte through IRC anyway, I think.
18:41:52 <AnMaster> ^bf [[
18:41:56 <AnMaster> well?
18:41:58 <AnMaster> ^bf .
18:42:02 <asiekierka> YAY
18:42:04 <fizzie> Hmm, ok, that crashed it. :p
18:42:04 <AnMaster> I think I crashed it
18:42:06 <asiekierka> WE FOUND TEH BUG
18:42:10 <asiekierka> DINGERING!
18:42:11 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I
18:42:12 <AnMaster> not we
18:42:14 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:42:16 <asiekierka> Yes we
18:42:16 <AnMaster> you took no part in it
18:42:18 <asiekierka> I first thought of it
18:42:20 <AnMaster> no
18:42:23 <asiekierka> then you said i forgot ^bf
18:42:26 <AnMaster> you didn't say anything
18:42:31 <AnMaster> <asiekierka>  [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[-]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]].
18:42:33 <asiekierka>   [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[-]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]. - THIS
18:42:37 <AnMaster> is that unmatches?
18:42:40 <AnMaster> unmatched*
18:42:41 <asiekierka> Yes.
18:42:43 <AnMaster> how would I know
18:42:45 <AnMaster> it is too many
18:42:48 <asiekierka> :P
18:42:58 <AnMaster> I thought of mine independently
18:43:17 <asiekierka> You know, fizzie, just check when it's out-of-bounds in code while looping, and if it is, stop it! :D
18:43:45 <fizzie> I'm not sure I have enough space around the [] handlers to add a test without reorganizing things.
18:43:56 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just check for []-mismatch before starting.
18:44:03 <asiekierka> Yeah
18:44:06 <asiekierka> Count the ['s and ]'s
18:44:18 <asiekierka> Then if they're equal, continue. Or else, tell both the amount of [
18:44:20 <asiekierka> and ]
18:44:24 <asiekierka> So the programmer can fix it :P
18:44:44 <tusho> asiekierka
18:44:44 <tusho> ][
18:44:49 <tusho> your algorithm would say that's balance
18:44:49 <tusho> d
18:46:05 <asiekierka> Yeah
18:46:12 <asiekierka> Didn't notice that
18:46:12 <tusho> so, no
18:46:15 <tusho> :P
18:46:25 <asiekierka> We can just check every [ and see if it has an end
18:46:29 <asiekierka> Adding 1 when you find an [
18:46:35 <asiekierka> and decreasing 1 when you find an ]
18:46:36 <asiekierka> Start at 1.
18:46:41 <asiekierka> When it's 0, it's ok.
18:46:57 <fizzie> I do know how to do it without instructions, guys.
18:47:09 <asiekierka> Well
18:47:17 <asiekierka> if [ found
18:47:19 <fizzie> But it'll take me quite a while; my Befunge-writing speed is the slow.
18:47:26 <asiekierka> process_next_char
18:47:37 <tusho> asiekierka: fizzie has been here since 2002
18:47:40 <tusho> I think he knows. :P
18:47:58 <asiekierka> if ip_char == [ temp++
18:48:01 <asiekierka> if ip_char == ] temp--
18:48:02 <asiekierka> if temp == 0 break;
18:48:10 <asiekierka> repeat if
18:48:51 <asiekierka> I wonder what to do for the 20th screeble
18:48:53 <asiekierka> I think maybe...
18:48:57 <asiekierka> ...something to do with this algorithm.
18:49:30 <AnMaster> <fizzie> AnMaster; No multitasking. I'm not sure how to use concurrent funge for that, since I guess the blocking socket-read would stop all the IPs. <-- hm. should it?
18:49:34 * AnMaster pokes Deewiant
18:49:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, should blocking socket reading stop all IPs in SOCK?
18:49:57 <AnMaster> IMO it shouldn't
18:50:05 <AnMaster> of course that will cause other issues
18:50:59 <Deewiant> of course it should
18:51:13 <Deewiant> because IPs are executed sequentially
18:53:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well what about a variant that only blocks current ip?
18:53:37 <AnMaster> it could work perfectly well
18:53:38 <Deewiant> how would that work
18:53:53 <AnMaster> every time that IP is invoked the status is polled
18:53:53 <Deewiant> when would the IP awake
18:53:58 <Deewiant> yeah, that works
18:54:03 <AnMaster> so it will awake at one of it's ticks
18:54:04 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:54:16 <AnMaster> will be slightly feral though
18:54:23 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:54:32 <asiekierka> #20 made, now colorize (heads)
18:54:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does it make sense?
18:54:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 2008-08-14 20:53:57 ( Deewiant) yeah, that works
18:54:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and would you implement it?
18:55:27 <Deewiant> hmm
18:55:39 <asiekierka> Ok
18:55:41 <asiekierka> now scan it
18:55:46 <AnMaster> it would be SCKEE or something (but 4 letters for 98)
18:56:35 <asiekierka> I'll tell you when it's there; it's about #esoteric
18:56:37 <Deewiant> yeah, I guess it's implementable
18:56:39 <asiekierka> Ok, scanned, now text it
18:57:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you do async IO with sock?
18:57:18 <AnMaster> SOCK*
18:57:39 <AnMaster> ie, check if socket is ready for reading or not
18:58:01 <AnMaster> non-blocking
18:58:35 <Deewiant> http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge_manual.html#SOCK
18:59:53 <AnMaster> hm seems you can't
19:00:24 <AnMaster> 6=OOBINLINE
19:00:26 <AnMaster> wtf is that?
19:00:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ?
19:00:49 <Deewiant> beats me
19:01:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you must have implemented in in CCBI?
19:01:26 <Deewiant> sure
19:01:32 <Deewiant> I don't know what it does, though :-P
19:01:47 <AnMaster>        SO_OOBINLINE
19:01:47 <AnMaster>               If  this option is enabled, out-of-band data is directly placed into the receive data stream.  Otherwise out-
19:01:47 <AnMaster>               of-band data is only passed when the MSG_OOB flag is set during receiving.
19:01:49 <AnMaster> oh I see
19:02:50 <asiekierka> Nearly done.
19:02:50 <asiekierka> Upping #20.
19:03:28 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/ - #20 is there! YAY!
19:03:50 <asiekierka> Check it out
19:04:14 <asiekierka> I think it is actually good
19:04:28 <asiekierka> Only the sitting of that right stickman (tusho) in the last panel
19:04:33 <asiekierka> He should be more to the right
19:05:11 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho|away.
19:06:57 <dogface> Oh, of course!
19:07:08 <dogface> I mean...
19:10:39 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:14:37 -!- fungot has joined.
19:14:49 <fizzie> I am not completely certain I got the stack handling done right.
19:14:54 <fizzie> ^bf [[
19:14:54 <fungot> Mismatched [].
19:15:02 <asiekierka> ^bf ][
19:15:03 <fizzie> ^bf ][
19:15:03 <fungot> Mismatched [].
19:15:03 <fungot> Mismatched [].
19:15:06 <asiekierka> YAY
19:15:07 <AnMaster>  ^bf ]]
19:15:09 <AnMaster> ^bf ]]
19:15:10 <fungot> Mismatched [].
19:15:11 <asiekierka> what way did you use
19:15:20 <AnMaster> ^bf ][[][][][][
19:15:23 <AnMaster> err
19:15:26 <AnMaster> ^bf .
19:15:26 <fungot> Mismatched [].
19:15:26 <fungot> .
19:15:31 <AnMaster> that took some time
19:15:35 <asiekierka> Lags.
19:15:37 <asiekierka> Lags and lags.
19:15:41 <asiekierka> Laggity laggity laggs
19:15:44 <AnMaster> ^bf ][[][][][][]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
19:15:44 <fungot> Mismatched [].
19:16:00 <AnMaster> ^bf ][[][][][][]][]][]][][][][][[[][]][][][][]][]]][]][][][][[[][][]][
19:16:01 <fungot> Mismatched [].
19:16:03 <AnMaster> k
19:16:55 <fizzie> I updated http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.bef.txt so you can check the algorithm used.
19:17:04 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I can't read the text in http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/?id=3
19:17:07 <AnMaster> totally unreadable
19:17:25 <asiekierka> Yeah
19:17:28 <asiekierka> these were the first ones
19:17:31 <AnMaster> asiekierka, same for 4
19:17:34 <asiekierka> Yeah
19:17:38 <asiekierka> the first 5-8 ones were bed
19:17:39 <asiekierka> bad*
19:17:41 <asiekierka> Also
19:17:45 <asiekierka> i'm soon going to switch to my DS
19:17:55 <AnMaster> asiekierka, your DS?
19:18:05 <asiekierka> yes
19:18:10 <asiekierka> but i must set up wifi
19:18:12 <asiekierka> 5-10 minutes
19:18:34 <AnMaster> asiekierka, is "Internal Server Error" supposed to happen?
19:18:40 <AnMaster>  http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/?id=7 gave that
19:18:49 <AnMaster> it gives it all the time even
19:18:55 <asiekierka> sometimes
19:18:59 <asiekierka> the server crashes
19:18:59 <AnMaster> same for 6 now
19:19:00 <asiekierka> Sorry :(
19:19:02 <asiekierka> I must find a better one
19:19:07 <asiekierka> It's a server-side fault
19:19:12 <asiekierka> the whole server fails then
19:19:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well why not just use plain html
19:19:27 <asiekierka> it's not fault of the code
19:19:33 <asiekierka> It's fault of the servr
19:19:35 <asiekierka> server*
19:19:40 <asiekierka> It constanly 500's
19:19:41 <asiekierka> on anything
19:20:03 <fizzie> In C-like pseudo it's now (as closely translated as possible) something like:   p = 0; i = 0; while (prog[i]) { if (prog[i] == '[') p++; else if (prog[i] == ']') { if (p == 0) fail(); p--; } i++; } if (p) fail();
19:20:49 <AnMaster> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/?id=8 <-- eh, those are flags not P
19:21:09 <asiekierka> You're SO INSANE then :D
19:22:37 -!- tusho|away has changed nick to tusho.
19:23:36 <tusho> BACK
19:23:38 <tusho> back
19:24:30 <AnMaster> asiekierka, http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/?id=19
19:24:31 <AnMaster> err
19:24:37 <AnMaster> optipng is better
19:24:52 <AnMaster> combined with advpng from advancecomp
19:25:03 <AnMaster> http://advancemame.sourceforge.net/comp-readme.html
19:25:09 <asiekierka> that's a nearly authentical tushoquote
19:25:10 <AnMaster> http://optipng.sourceforge.net/
19:25:15 <asiekierka> i only added "Soon"
19:25:25 <AnMaster> asiekierka, err then I don't get it
19:25:46 <AnMaster> asiekierka, oh btw the drop down menu is broken without javascript
19:25:53 <asiekierka> mhm
19:25:54 <AnMaster> I hope you will fix that
19:25:57 <asiekierka> i used a comic management system
19:26:03 <asiekierka> and i dont know javascript
19:26:04 <asiekierka> nor php
19:26:06 <AnMaster> asiekierka, it is still broken
19:26:09 <AnMaster> and I will bug you
19:26:12 <AnMaster> until you fix it
19:26:34 <tusho> asiekierka: that comic was fun
19:26:45 <tusho> AnMaster: shut the fuck up nobody cares
19:26:49 <tusho> :\
19:27:18 <tusho> hey asiekierka those comics that you made for your own amusement ... they don't work if I disable javascript! even though you didn't make the cms! go dig in a codebase you don't know! bug bug bug bug bug bug
19:27:36 <asiekierka> lol
19:27:38 <AnMaster> tusho, he should file a bug upstream
19:27:45 <tusho> AnMaster: perhaps he doesn't care
19:27:47 <tusho> i know i wouldn't
19:27:49 <tusho> also
19:27:51 <tusho> why don't you do it
19:27:52 <AnMaster> well you wouldn't
19:27:55 <tusho> hmm?
19:27:59 <AnMaster> of course you wouldn't
19:28:02 <AnMaster> you are tusho
19:28:04 <AnMaster> and never cares
19:28:05 <tusho> AnMaster: why don't you do it?
19:28:09 <tusho> you discovered it.
19:28:28 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't know if it depends on config or such
19:28:34 <AnMaster> only the site owner can know that
19:28:43 <AnMaster> maybe it doesn't happen in default config
19:28:53 <AnMaster> and I'm not about to setup php to try it out
19:28:59 <AnMaster> I don't even have php installed
19:29:00 <tusho> why would graceful degradation be a config option
19:29:01 <tusho> that's stupid
19:29:09 <AnMaster> tusho, could depend on theme?
19:29:14 <AnMaster> that would make sense
19:29:20 -!- fungot has quit ("bling-blong, just a moment").
19:29:22 <AnMaster> maybe not all themes got such a menu
19:29:30 -!- fungot has joined.
19:29:33 <tusho> so why would he change theme just for that AnMaster
19:29:39 <tusho> it's a bug in the theme
19:29:42 <tusho> and you should still report it
19:29:46 <tusho> you - you discovered it
19:29:47 <tusho> not him
19:30:03 <AnMaster> tusho, well I don't know what theme he got
19:30:06 <AnMaster> if it is a theme bug at all
19:30:09 <AnMaster> and so on
19:30:14 <AnMaster> only site owner can know that
19:30:17 <tusho> AnMaster: generally, you just file it under general and let the developers figure that out.
19:30:28 <fizzie> ^bf +++[.+++]
19:30:29 <fungot> ..........!$'*-0369<?BEHKNQTWZ]`cfilorux{~�������������������������������������������.......... #&),/258;>ADGJMPSVY\_behknqtwz}�������������������������������������������.........."%(+.147:=@CFILORUX[^adgjm ...
19:30:48 <AnMaster> ^bf +[.+]
19:30:48 <fungot> .............................. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~�������������������������������������������������������������������������������� ...
19:30:58 <fizzie> I think the cells might now be bytes.
19:31:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, check by wrapping
19:32:33 <AnMaster> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
19:32:33 <fungot> .
19:32:37 <AnMaster> err
19:32:39 <AnMaster> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
19:32:40 <fungot> .
19:32:47 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++++++++++[>----------<-]>.
19:32:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think something is wrong
19:32:48 <fungot> `
19:33:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, can you do hot swap of code? :D
19:33:21 <AnMaster> should technically be possible
19:33:27 <AnMaster> add a command to load the code again using i
19:33:32 <AnMaster> at 0,0
19:33:54 <AnMaster> be aware of that space in the new file will not replace anything in the old file
19:33:56 <fizzie> There's still the filtering. That should be 256-16*10 = 96 = `, so I think it works.
19:34:31 <AnMaster> ^bf -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
19:34:32 <fungot> �
19:34:36 <AnMaster> err?
19:34:38 <AnMaster> ^bf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
19:34:38 <fizzie> It needs some reformatting for that, otherwise the parts in the beginning of the file will overwrite all state stored in the funge-space there.
19:34:38 <fungot> �
19:34:43 <AnMaster> ^bf --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
19:34:43 <fungot> �
19:34:45 -!- oklopol has joined.
19:34:51 <AnMaster> mayebe..
19:35:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, well yes
19:35:05 <AnMaster> but it is a cool idea
19:35:10 <AnMaster> as spaces doesn't overwrite
19:35:22 <fizzie> Yes, it is. I might try and implement it at some point.
19:35:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh use negative funge space for data storage!
19:35:23 <AnMaster> :D
19:35:31 <AnMaster> negative funge space is valid
19:35:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, what interpreter are you using?
19:36:03 <AnMaster> I think RC/Funge's static model may be buggy in negative funge space
19:36:09 <fizzie> RC/Funge-98, or however it's written. I don't have the D stuff for CCBI, and don't like random people's binaries.
19:36:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: RC/Funge-98 had its static model completely removed 2 weeks ago
19:37:05 <AnMaster> ah ok
19:37:30 <Deewiant> or at least the dynamic was made the default, not sure which actually
19:38:03 <fizzie> Well, my version is 1.17 according to changes.txt; not sure how new that is.
19:38:29 <AnMaster> bbl food
19:38:31 <Deewiant> *
19:38:31 <Deewiant> 1.17 August 13, 2008
19:38:44 <fizzie> Ooh, that's very new.
19:41:15 <fizzie> I could get 'i'-reloading working pretty easily by actually starting the bot using an almost-empty Funge-98 file that just loads the actual source at something like (0,30) and goes there; then I could do the reloading without overwriting the storage area.
19:42:09 <fizzie> Although it might be best to forcefully clear largeish areas of the funge-space before reloading, since spaces do not overwrite.
19:43:45 <fizzie> There seems to be a 'fill' command in the TOYS fingerprint, even.
19:46:02 -!- Hiato has joined.
19:48:47 <KingOfKarlsruhe> http://refactormycode.com/codes/412-brainfuck-generator-in-ruby
19:56:01 -!- Corun has joined.
19:58:05 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:00:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:01:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, remember, it must not loose connection nor state!
20:03:44 <fizzie> Well, it shouldn't, if I just replace the program text. Of course it will get confused if too much changes, but adding/changing command handlers should be pretty easy.
20:10:05 -!- asiekierka has joined.
20:10:06 <asiekierka> Hi
20:10:09 <tusho> hi asiekierka
20:10:13 <asiekierka> Someone is making a BF_Net interpreter to me
20:10:16 <tusho> have you seen milkweasal #9?
20:10:19 <asiekierka> that BF mod with IRC/TCP support
20:10:20 <asiekierka> nope
20:10:26 <asiekierka> did you see screeble #20?
20:10:30 <tusho> yes
20:10:32 <tusho> i liked it
20:10:34 <asiekierka> :)
20:10:39 <asiekierka> Based on a True Story
20:10:49 <tusho> you know the URI of milkweasal, I believe
20:10:54 <asiekierka> forgot it
20:10:55 <asiekierka> :/
20:11:02 <tusho> http://tentaclerapture.com/milkweasal/
20:11:11 <tusho> the latest one was neat shape in photoshop + random bashing on keyboard
20:11:23 <tusho> (that is, random words strung together while explicitly trying not to think about it)
20:11:46 <asiekierka> Also, i wonder how hard is making an irc bot with a turing tarpit
20:11:52 <asiekierka> Hopefully i'll have an interpreter
20:11:54 <asiekierka> so i'll check out!
20:13:11 <asiekierka> There will be no more screebles today.
20:13:15 <asiekierka> I just don't feel like it anymore.
20:13:48 <asiekierka> I, however
20:13:52 <asiekierka> feel like testing BFirc!
20:14:52 <asiekierka> My friend tests it for me
20:14:56 <asiekierka> If the library will work
20:14:59 <asiekierka> We will know :D
20:15:25 <asiekierka> also
20:15:29 <asiekierka> you know you wasted 500000$
20:15:33 <asiekierka> on your comic license
20:15:36 <AnMaster> tusho, "beem"?
20:15:42 <AnMaster> oh you are into erlang?
20:15:42 <asiekierka> since you call them milkweasals anyway
20:15:48 <AnMaster> compiled erlang files are *.beam
20:15:49 <AnMaster> I see
20:15:52 <AnMaster> nice tusho!
20:15:53 <AnMaster> ;P
20:15:54 <tusho> AnMaster: no, I decided not to correct any errors
20:16:01 <tusho> when I started the sentence
20:16:08 <tusho> "peiece" too
20:16:09 <asiekierka> As i did when made screeble #16
20:16:12 <AnMaster> tusho, I think this was a subconscious typo
20:16:12 <asiekierka> and it turned out
20:16:14 <AnMaster> related to erlamng
20:16:16 <AnMaster> erlang*
20:16:17 <asiekierka> i forgot to color 3 stickmen!
20:16:18 <tusho> perhaps
20:18:39 -!- dark_templar has joined.
20:18:48 <dark_templar> O
20:18:48 <asiekierka> here we go
20:18:53 <dark_templar> with what?
20:18:53 <asiekierka> all over again
20:19:02 <asiekierka> BFirc testing, possibly.
20:19:04 <asiekierka> Or not.
20:19:07 <asiekierka> I don't know.
20:19:32 <asiekierka> Or did you just came here to manage your BFirc test things?
20:19:35 <asiekierka> come*
20:20:13 <dark_templar> it won't run
20:20:15 <dark_templar> just wait up ya
20:20:21 <asiekierka> Yeah, ok
20:20:28 <dark_templar> got a TypeError in irclib
20:21:00 <asiekierka> Check if code's right
20:21:25 <oklopol> :D
20:21:31 <dark_templar> the server thingy needed to be like list(tuple(string(server),integer(port))
20:22:50 -!- makebot has joined.
20:22:52 <psygnisfive> oklopol
20:22:54 <tusho> makebot: Yo.
20:22:56 <tusho> !help
20:22:56 <asiekierka> Yay
20:22:59 <tusho> makebot: help
20:23:00 <dark_templar> hey
20:23:01 <asiekierka> He's just a library test
20:23:02 <tusho> makebot: Your mother.
20:23:07 <asiekierka> don't expect it to work
20:23:09 -!- makebot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:23:13 <dark_templar> sure
20:23:17 <asiekierka> It's a connection/disconnection part of BFirc interpreter
20:23:20 <dark_templar> it was a connection reset by Ctrl-C
20:23:26 <asiekierka> What did you expect?
20:23:41 <oklopol> psygnisfive
20:23:46 <asiekierka> oh, darktemplar, about BFirc, cells should be 0-255 and wrap around
20:24:10 <oklopol> psygnisfive: don't you like me anymore? : <
20:24:19 <psygnisfive> hows it goin oklopol
20:24:21 <psygnisfive> whatchu been up to
20:24:27 <oklopol> awesomely, mostly
20:24:33 <psygnisfive> :)
20:24:35 <psygnisfive> do tell
20:24:38 <oklopol> i've been playing chess and not sleeping
20:24:48 <oklopol> i suck at chess
20:24:50 -!- makebot has joined.
20:24:54 <dark_templar> TEST
20:24:59 <oklopol> also i coded a bit, ofc
20:25:01 -!- makebot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:25:08 <oklopol> finished reading a few books
20:25:12 <dark_templar> so those are Events, not strings..
20:25:24 <psygnisfive> im reading some books :o
20:25:31 <oklopol> what books?
20:25:44 <psygnisfive> im reading Simpler Syntax right now
20:25:55 <oklopol> parsing?
20:26:06 <oklopol> well formal languages?
20:26:06 <psygnisfive> no
20:26:17 <psygnisfive> natural language syntactic theory
20:26:24 <oklopol> ah
20:26:29 <psygnisfive> i mean, i think it tries to be formal
20:26:54 -!- makebot has joined.
20:26:55 <psygnisfive> but its not something youd see in the chomsky hierarchy
20:27:03 <dark_templar> bfbot test
20:27:05 <oklopol> ya
20:27:10 -!- makebot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:27:15 <asiekierka> T_T
20:27:17 <psygnisfive> natural language seems to be TC, possibly.
20:27:22 <asiekierka> I'd recommend #esoteric-blah for it
20:27:26 <asiekierka> it's the typical testing channel
20:27:29 <psygnisfive> overlaid on top of some CF elements
20:27:32 <asiekierka> :P
20:27:44 <oklopol> psygnisfive: almost positively
20:27:58 <asiekierka> You know
20:28:01 <asiekierka> can i change the topic?
20:28:20 -!- psygnisfive has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | No you can't, asiekierka..
20:28:37 <oklopol> parsing depends on semantics in many cases, should be quite simple to find some ambiguity that needs you to solve run an arbitrary program
20:28:48 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | No you can't, asiekierka. | bot testings in #esoteric-blah, PLEASE..
20:28:56 <oklopol> ...
20:29:11 <oklopol> that was some serious sentence structure
20:29:13 <psygnisfive> parsing kindof can depend on semantics
20:29:22 <tusho> optbot!
20:29:23 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | there are 3 korean in this channel.
20:29:28 <tusho> haha
20:29:29 <asiekierka> optbot?
20:29:29 <optbot> asiekierka: http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/~sc/Shakell/
20:29:31 <asiekierka> optbot!
20:29:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | sh -c "(test -f /home/arvid/local/ick/info/ick.info.gz && install-info --quiet --dir-file=/usr/share/info/dir /home/arvid/local/ick/info/ick.info.gz) || true".
20:29:35 <asiekierka> :)
20:29:36 <tusho> optbot!
20:29:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i think uve been awake too long :D.
20:29:38 <asiekierka> optbot!
20:29:39 <tusho> Hahahah
20:29:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | when it blatently doesn't.
20:29:39 <tusho> yes
20:29:40 <tusho> aww
20:29:48 <asiekierka> optbot!
20:29:49 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | would (?c x y.c sign nominator denominator) be possible?.
20:30:00 <psygnisfive> atleast in there are multiple possible parses for some sentences, and it depends on the meaning to determine which is the valid one
20:30:05 <psygnisfive> well
20:30:09 <psygnisfive> thats not a semantics dependent parse
20:30:19 <asiekierka> optbot!
20:30:19 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | why thank you H. Champion Pikhq..
20:30:20 <psygnisfive> since the parse is supposed to reveal the semantics
20:30:20 <psygnisfive> rather
20:30:25 <psygnisfive> its a pragmatics dependent parse
20:30:27 <psygnisfive> but you get the point
20:30:28 <asiekierka> that stays
20:30:29 <asiekierka> xD
20:31:05 <oklopol> actually no i didn't
20:31:09 <asiekierka> darktemplar currently debugges part of my BFirc interpreter in #esoteric-blah. *grabs some popcorn*
20:31:12 <psygnisfive> :p
20:31:13 <oklopol> but then again, i'm tired as hell
20:31:26 <oklopol> hmm
20:31:31 <psygnisfive> the parse of a sentence cant depend on its semantics
20:31:40 <psygnisfive> because the parse is what tells you the semantics
20:31:42 <oklopol> hmm
20:31:45 <oklopol> err well no, true
20:32:06 <oklopol> i guess you could say context dependent
20:32:14 <psygnisfive> i mean, which parse is the correct one to choose depends on what the intended semantics are, yes
20:32:18 <oklopol> depends on the semantics of *preceding* sentenced
20:32:20 <oklopol> *sentences
20:32:25 <psygnisfive> but you cant access intended semantics since theyre in the head of the person talking :)
20:32:39 <psygnisfive> dependency on preceding sentences, or even on external factors, yes
20:32:44 <psygnisfive> thats called pragmatics
20:32:49 <oklopol> no but you can guess them, and in most cases it's "obvious" which is the correct one
20:32:58 <oklopol> right
20:32:59 <psygnisfive> using stuff other than the sentence to guide the interpretation of the sentence
20:33:10 <oklopol> well the fact i didn't know that word may have afflicted my not understanding you
20:33:13 <psygnisfive> as for obvious, its obvious to US HUMANS
20:33:28 <psygnisfive> because we have exquisitely designed mechanisms for it
20:33:33 <psygnisfive> but its very complicated
20:33:39 <asiekierka> Heh. Befunge-98 ircbot. I can be better than that. -> making BFirc -> getting stuck on making a bot in it
20:34:13 <oklopol> psygnisfive: well yes, but i'm sure there are cases which are "provably obvious", and depend on the truth-value of an arbitrary proposition
20:34:29 <psygnisfive> there are some, but not many. :)
20:34:47 <oklopol> if there is one, the language is tc, so i'm pretty confident
20:34:49 <oklopol> :)
20:34:52 <psygnisfive> and they usually involve simple things like 'he probably means "John" not "Mary"'
20:34:54 <oklopol> ...
20:34:55 <oklopol> parsing
20:34:57 <oklopol> sadfase
20:35:31 <oklopol> is there a bot in unlambda?
20:35:37 <psygnisfive> but most of these things aren't taken to be syntactic in nature
20:35:41 <asiekierka> Make an IRClambda
20:35:47 <asiekierka> unlambda with irc capabilities
20:35:51 <asiekierka> As i'm getting BFirc
20:38:45 <dogface> nc irc.freenode.net 6667 -c unlambda blah
20:38:55 <dogface> Maybe.
20:39:07 <asiekierka> I wonder how large will my BFbot be
20:39:12 <oklopol> sleep time! :)
20:39:15 <asiekierka> What prefix can i use?
20:39:20 <asiekierka> ~ is taken
20:39:24 <asiekierka> ! is taken
20:39:32 <asiekierka> !bf +[]
20:39:34 <psygnisfive> night oklopol
20:39:35 <oklopol> asiekierka: first bot then prefix
20:39:44 <asiekierka> :P
20:39:45 <asiekierka> Nope
20:39:48 <asiekierka> First language
20:39:49 <asiekierka> then design
20:39:50 <asiekierka> then bot
20:40:01 <oklopol> but µ is a nice prefix
20:40:09 <asiekierka> But noone can type it!
20:40:21 <asiekierka> I think : would be cool
20:40:22 <asiekierka> like
20:40:24 <asiekierka> :bf
20:40:27 <asiekierka> or
20:40:27 <asiekierka> :)
20:40:28 <oklopol> your mother can type it
20:40:42 <asiekierka> What about
20:40:44 <asiekierka> `
20:40:45 <asiekierka> as a prefix?
20:40:50 <asiekierka> `bf... oh wait wasnt that used
20:41:01 <oklopol> ` is a beautiful character
20:41:06 <oklopol> now really ->
20:41:13 <asiekierka> Was it used?
20:41:15 <dogface> % is a nice prefix.
20:41:20 <asiekierka> agreed
20:41:20 <dogface> $ is a lovely prefix.
20:41:24 <asiekierka> %bf
20:41:26 <asiekierka> no wait
20:41:27 <asiekierka> $bf
20:41:28 <asiekierka> nope
20:41:32 <asiekierka> both are too traditional
20:41:37 <asiekierka> while `bf is something... NEW!
20:42:32 <asiekierka> Though my commands will be mostly 1-character
20:42:40 <asiekierka> since 2-character doubles the size of the check command
20:42:44 <asiekierka> xD
20:42:49 <asiekierka> and 3-character triples
20:43:06 <dogface> ] isn't very traditional.
20:43:21 <dogface> Qx isn't very traditional.
20:45:46 <dogface> Also, screeble #10000 is nice.
20:49:09 <asiekierka> xD
20:49:19 <asiekierka> I know you mean in binary
20:49:19 <asiekierka> right
20:49:45 <dogface> Yep.
20:49:51 <asiekierka> :)
20:49:54 <asiekierka> I know it's nice
20:50:04 <asiekierka> it is actually 16 times better than #1
20:50:27 <asiekierka> #20 is my first actual comic
20:50:30 <asiekierka> not just a screeble
20:52:14 <tusho> [20:41:18] <dogface> % is a nice prefix.
20:52:18 <tusho> blahbot` used %
20:52:22 <tusho> botte will use . or @
20:52:31 <asiekierka> Will anyone use `?
20:52:32 <asiekierka> If noy
20:52:33 <asiekierka> not*
20:52:34 <asiekierka> I do
20:52:48 <dogface> I claim #.
20:52:58 <asiekierka> So i claim `
20:53:06 <asiekierka> `b
20:53:12 <asiekierka> `bf sounds familiar though
20:54:42 <asiekierka> <asiekierka> Hi!
20:54:43 <asiekierka> <bsmntbombdood> here we go
20:54:43 <asiekierka> <ehird`> oh no
20:54:48 <asiekierka> Ah, memories
20:54:50 <asiekierka> from a year ago
20:55:01 <asiekierka> <ehird`> oh no - this quote is CLASSIC
20:55:46 -!- MikeRiley has joined.
20:56:04 -!- dark_templar has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:57:54 <asiekierka> <asiekierka> Hi!
20:57:56 <asiekierka> <bsmntbombdood> here we go
20:57:56 <asiekierka> <ehird`> oh no
20:57:56 <asiekierka> oh wait
20:57:58 <asiekierka> wrong paste
20:58:02 <asiekierka> * Topic is 'Esoteric programming language discussion | FORUM AND WIKI: esolangs.org | CHANNEL LOGS: tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | IRP in #irp | Don't spam the channel with EgoBot commands, /query EgoBot | Don't spam the channel with toBogE commands, /join #toboge | Don't spam the channel with bsmnt_bot commands, take him to your own channel. | Congratulations ais523 for winning the Wolfram research prize!'
20:58:06 <asiekierka> oh the memories
20:58:06 <asiekierka> :P
21:00:03 <tusho> quite
21:00:23 <tusho> [20:55:04] <asiekierka> <ehird`> oh no - this quote is CLASSIC
21:00:24 <tusho> context?
21:00:59 <asiekierka> me joining #esoteric
21:01:07 <tusho> but
21:01:08 <tusho> [20:55:04] <asiekierka> <ehird`> oh no - this quote is CLASSIC
21:01:09 <tusho> when did I say that
21:03:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:08:42 <asiekierka> Some time in 2007
21:08:44 <asiekierka> Middle 2007
21:10:31 -!- fungot has quit ("adding ^reload support").
21:10:45 -!- fungot has joined.
21:11:32 <asiekierka> <Slereah> PIME TARADOX - xD
21:12:10 <asiekierka> in context to me responding to ehird` about some steps adding some other steps that create a paradox
21:13:06 <asiekierka> Yay
21:13:18 <asiekierka> i have LgoBot Eogs!
21:13:21 <asiekierka> or EgoBot Logs
21:13:27 <asiekierka> a little
21:14:41 <fizzie> The genesis: [2005-10-24 02:27:01] < GregorR-L> I'll call it EgoBot.
21:15:55 <tusho> fizzie: hah
21:16:15 <dogface> ElbowBot Cogs.
21:16:30 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[->+++<]>---------------.+++++++++++++++.-------.-------.++++++++.+++++.
21:16:31 <fungot> fungot
21:17:45 <fizzie> ^bf +++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++>><<<<-]>--.>.-------.<+.>+.+++++.
21:17:45 <fungot> fungot
21:18:36 <fizzie> ^bf +++++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>+.>.--.>---.-.<<--------.>+.>>.<---.<.<.>.>++++.<++++.----.>>-.<.<------.<+++++++++.
21:18:36 <fungot> (used that textgen)
21:18:42 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf ++[->+++++<]>[->++++++++++<]>++.[-]<++[->+++++<]>+[->++++++++++<]>+++++++.[-]<++[->+++++<]>+[->++++++++++<]>.[-]<++[->+++++<]>[->++++++++++<]>+++.[-]<++[->+++++<]>+[->++++++++++<]>+.[-]<++[->+++++<]>+[->++++++++++<]>++++++.[-]<+[->++++++++++<]>.
21:18:42 <fungot> fungot.
21:18:48 <asiekierka> :O
21:22:16 <dogface> ^bf +++[->+++++<]>[->++++++++++<]>++.[-]<++[->+++++<]>+[->++++++++++<]>+++++++.[-]<++[->+++++<]>+[->++++++++++<]>.[-]<++[->+++++<]>[->++++++++++<]>+++.[-]<++[->+++++<]>+[->++++++++++<]>+.[-]<++[->+++++<]>+[->++++++++++<]>++++++.[-]<+[->++++++++++<]>.
21:22:17 <fungot> �ungot.
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21:22:21 <dogface> Cool.
21:23:28 <dogface> ^bf +++[->+++++<]>[->++++++++++<]>+++.[-]<+++[->+++++<]>+[->++++++++++<]>+++++++.[-]<+++[->+++++<]>+[->++++++++++<]>.[-]<+++[->+++++<]>[->++++++++++<]>+++.[-]<+++[->+++++<]>+[->++++++++++<]>+.[-]<+++[->+++++<]>+[->++++++++++<]>++++++.[-]<+[->++++++++++<]>.
21:23:29 <fungot> ������.
21:23:34 <dogface> Exciting.
21:25:41 <fizzie> I'll do a small utf8y test.
21:25:45 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++++++[>+++++++++++++++++>>><<<<-]>++.-------------------.
21:25:45 <fungot> λ
21:25:49 <fizzie> Yay, it's a lambda.
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21:29:44 <dogface> I λove λambdas.
21:29:51 <dogface> Aren't they the cooλest?
21:30:08 <dogface> Of course, tλey kind of look more like tλe letter h.
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23:35:39 <tusho> .
23:45:04 <psygnisfive> ,
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23:46:13 <tusho> ‼
23:46:18 <tusho> one character: ‼
23:46:20 <tusho> discuss
23:46:41 <psygnisfive> uninteresting.
23:47:11 <psygnisfive> e != е
23:57:52 <tusho> ‼‼‼‼‼‼‼‼‼‼‼
23:58:52 <dogface> psygnisfive: impossible.
23:59:02 <psygnisfive> not :(
23:59:06 <psygnisfive> the first is latin e
23:59:09 <psygnisfive> the second is cyrillic
23:59:12 <dogface> Oh.
23:59:15 <psygnisfive> they have different code points
23:59:26 <dogface> Is there an E in Cyrillic?
23:59:29 <psygnisfive> which is fucking retarded i think
23:59:34 <psygnisfive> there are TWO
23:59:42 <psygnisfive> е є
23:59:43 <dogface> Ε and E are different characters, and neither is Cyrillic.
23:59:53 <dogface> Those aren't E's, those are e's.

2008-08-15:

00:00:01 <psygnisfive> э
00:00:03 <psygnisfive> thats the one
00:00:11 <psygnisfive> the second one before is ukranian cyrillic ie
00:00:23 <psygnisfive> oh you mean the CHARACTER E
00:00:29 <dogface> I guess.
00:00:30 <psygnisfive> sorry i thought you meant the letter
00:00:56 <psygnisfive> yes:
00:01:02 <psygnisfive> Е
00:01:07 <psygnisfive> but thats ukranian cyrillic
00:01:22 <psygnisfive> or maybe just cyrillic in general
00:01:27 <psygnisfive> it says its cyrillic capital ie
00:01:39 <psygnisfive> and e is small letter ie
00:01:42 <psygnisfive> but its still e
00:01:53 <psygnisfive> Є
00:01:56 <psygnisfive> thats the ukranian ie
00:03:11 <dogface> So Е, E and Ε are all different characters.
00:03:23 <psygnisfive> i guess! :o
00:03:34 <dogface> EEЕEEEEEEEEEΕEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
00:03:59 <psygnisfive> im sure there are others as well
00:04:05 <psygnisfive> Ε
00:04:07 <psygnisfive> capital epsilon
00:05:08 <psygnisfive> Ꭼ cherokee GV
00:05:24 <dogface> Now, that one doesn't show here.
00:05:29 <psygnisfive> ah
00:05:37 <psygnisfive> well it looks like a serify E
00:06:12 <dogface> An E with lines at the top and bottom out the back and front and also in the middle out the front, or something like that, anyway?
00:06:38 <psygnisfive> er
00:06:43 <psygnisfive> like E in times new roman. :P
00:07:33 <dogface> Yeah, that.
00:07:47 <psygnisfive> serifs.
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00:27:11 <tusho> .
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00:36:48 <psygnisfive> ,
00:38:23 <tusho> ß
00:38:32 <tusho> ø,œo˙øpøʼ̛Ø̛̋̄Ø̋ ̑̃Œ̛̈́Ø̛̋̄”‚°̀·‚‡°̀·‡°·‡̀°·‡°·̛̱̣̣̈̆̃̋̊̉̃̊̋̆̋̊ ̱̑̆̋̊̄ ̑̆Ð̱̊̋ ̑̆Ð̱̊̋̄ ̑̆Ð
00:38:46 <dogface> Éxá©þøü.
00:38:52 <tusho> dogface: iojøʼ˝¯.
00:39:09 <psygnisfive> ;p;
00:39:55 <dogface> Úñfó®túñátély, Í ©áñ´t úñðé®stáñð á thíñg yóú sáy.
00:40:09 <psygnisfive> noone can, dont worry
00:40:15 <psygnisfive> tusho's incomprehensible
00:40:29 <dogface> tusho, στοπ βεινγ σο ινψομπρεηενσιβλε.
00:40:54 <tusho> dogface: ̋̄̆Ð̄̈̈≥ ̄Ø ̛̱̑̄Œ̆́
00:41:06 <dogface> Σηαλλ ςε ψοντινθε βεινγ ινψομπρεηενσιβλε?
00:41:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you know, i think i know.
00:41:37 <psygnisfive> ℕº㎡Åⅅ∑!
00:42:00 * dogface slaps oklopol
00:42:08 <psygnisfive> oklopol isnt here! :(
00:42:19 <dogface> I take it ⅅ is some sort of n character.
00:42:25 <psygnisfive> itds a d
00:42:26 <psygnisfive> o.o
00:42:35 <dogface> Inmade?
00:42:39 <psygnisfive> what?
00:42:45 <dogface> What you said.
00:42:50 <tusho> Nomads.
00:42:54 <psygnisfive> exactly!
00:42:58 <dogface> Oh.
00:43:24 * dogface ponders incomprehensible things
00:43:42 <dogface> Arrogant, I know.
00:44:14 <psygnisfive> not at all
00:44:48 <psygnisfive> you admit theyre incomprehensible, so its not like you comprehend them
00:45:29 <dogface> I didn't know Maltese was even a language, you know.
00:45:35 <psygnisfive> well it is
00:46:03 <dogface> Boring.
00:57:24 <tusho> http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/oopbad.htm OOP Cube
00:57:30 <tusho> By "topmind".
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01:45:42 <RodgerTheGreat> I dunno, that article doesn't have nearly enough crazy to truly compare to timecube
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03:40:13 <bsmntbombdood>  
03:52:27 <adu> hi
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08:32:31 <Figs> Howdy
08:33:45 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/LNIIjB27.html <-- is this the start of something evil?
08:43:24 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/t2kLGX37.html <-- this is probably slightly better
08:43:29 * Figs prods oklopol
09:05:21 <GreaseMonkey> painful.
09:05:22 <Figs> well, `night
09:05:25 <Figs> oh
09:05:29 <Figs> someone's here! :D
09:05:55 <Figs> It is, isn't it? :)
09:07:28 <GreaseMonkey> yeah
09:07:33 <GreaseMonkey> you will die badly now.
09:07:40 * GreaseMonkey uses the die-badly tool
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09:15:15 <Figs> Ok, now I shall vanish
09:15:18 <Figs> *poof*
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09:38:48 <Mony> hi
09:39:02 <GreaseMonkey> 'lo
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09:49:56 <fizzie> 'noon.
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10:02:39 <jemarch> hi
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10:32:49 <oklopol> so how about theoretical practical physics, the study of ai methods for discovering facts about the rules of cellular automata from within the system itself
10:34:39 <oklopol> and practical theoretical physics, where these rules are then used to anticipate the events after n steps, and use them for the advantage of the agent
10:35:12 <oklopol> s/use them/used
10:35:22 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokoko
10:35:43 <oklopol> wouldn't it be awesome to have a little scientist turtle
10:36:07 <oklopol> i'd so tickle its chin with my massive godly hands
10:36:32 <oklopol> jemarch: hi
10:42:02 <oklopol> in the same fashion, i might enjoy practical theoretical psychology, except in this case you'd probably want to allow a human as the observer, and thus the scientist
10:42:39 <oklopol> really the study of turtle mind
10:43:30 <oklopol> non mathematically speaking, really anticipating the choices it will make with artificial simplified constructs representing its complex ai mind
10:43:40 <oklopol> teeth, doing them ->
10:51:44 <fizzie> Is he creating life-forms, or what does the teeth-doing comment refer to?
10:53:25 <oklopol> brush action, was going i
10:53:43 <oklopol> anyway should i read about graphs of ai now
10:54:12 <oklopol> graphs are undeniably sexier
10:54:26 <oklopol> but this is not about my preferences
10:54:38 <oklopol> but about your preferences
10:57:43 <oklopol> damn you people, yesternight it was blah blah about any random shit that was mentioned, in a speed that exceeded the processing speed of my brain, and now i can't get one bit of information :)
11:05:51 <fizzie> I vote for graphs; AI is bogus.
11:06:27 <oklopol> thanks
11:06:38 <oklopol> been waiting for an answer for ages
11:06:46 <oklopol> on like 5 channels :D
11:06:58 <oklopol> as if i could ever choose anything
11:06:59 <oklopol> ->
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12:19:14 <tusho> optbot!
12:19:14 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | mmm.
12:19:16 <tusho> optbot!
12:19:16 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | !!.Me.Sucks.
12:19:17 <tusho> optbot!
12:19:18 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | lots of libs.
12:19:19 <tusho> optbot!
12:19:20 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | a nite.
12:19:21 <tusho> optbot!
12:19:21 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | %reloda.
12:19:22 <tusho> optbot!
12:19:22 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | lessee.
12:19:23 <tusho> optbot!
12:19:24 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | exactly.
12:19:25 <tusho> wow
12:19:27 <tusho> lots of short topics
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12:55:59 <oerjan> It's the time of the Oval!
13:04:47 <oklopol> your mother is oval
13:05:22 <oklopol> really the only way to get pregnant, so kind of a tautology
13:05:25 <oerjan> Also, 5 days since i was here last and i am just halfway through the Triangle and Robert archive.
13:08:56 <oerjan> current snapshot: http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1343
13:12:08 <oklopol> hmph, i was hoping it'd be high-level mathematical humor i have no way of getting
13:12:52 <oerjan> there was one mathematical pun that made me laugh out loud - let me find it again
13:14:15 <oerjan> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1276
13:17:52 <oklopol> only the first joke is a pun
13:18:03 <oklopol> and the latter isn't terribly funny
13:18:11 <oerjan> i never said otherwise
13:18:23 <oklopol> i'm not saying you did
13:18:26 <oklopol> i'm only stating random facts
13:18:47 <oklopol> anyway, i don't want puns, i want jokes that are purely mathematical!
13:18:55 <oerjan> actually the latter is not a joke - it is a plot device
13:19:05 <oklopol> i see
13:20:55 <oerjan> i suppose T&R has surprisingly few math jokes for having polygons as the main characters
13:21:49 <oerjan> it's mostly absurdist and meta-humor
13:23:08 <oklopol> yeah
13:23:55 <oerjan> and geekiness
13:24:05 <oklopol> i need to get a math degree so i can start making comics
13:24:33 <oklopol> well, i already have enough expertise to confuse the average geek
13:24:53 <oklopol> but so does asiekierka with his esolang ones, so i'm not terribly satisfied :P
13:25:58 <oklopol> at least one relied on +[], i doubt everyone will read that as the normal form of the infinite loop :-)
13:26:11 <oerjan> i had this idea once of three mathketeers - Orthos, Pathos and d'Arctangent
13:26:52 <oklopol> :)
13:26:57 <oerjan> hm d'Artagnan was not actually one of the 3 musketeers, says WP
13:27:15 <oerjan> serves me for not actually having read the books :D
13:27:17 <oklopol> right he was the one that met the guys and owned their asses off
13:27:42 <oklopol> the skript kiddie they never acknowledged as a part of their secret society
13:27:59 <oklopol> i haven't read the books either, but i've seen 5 minutes of one of the movies
13:28:54 * oerjan nevertheless knows enough to suspect oklopol is trying to fool him
13:29:13 <oerjan> "script kiddie", come on
13:29:28 <oklopol> well that was more of a metaphor
13:30:04 <oklopol> for whatever he may have been in the book!
13:30:07 <oklopol> *s
13:36:59 <oerjan> oh and of course there would cardinals
13:37:08 <oerjan> *would be
13:41:57 <oklopol> always with the puns :)
13:42:08 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[->+>++>+++<<<]>>>-------------------------------------------.+++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++.---------------------.--------------.++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++.---------.+++++++.++++.<----------------------------------------------.>-----------.++++++++++.<.>----------------.++++++++++++..---.<.>++++++++++++.<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
13:42:08 <fungot> JavaScript is cool xD
13:44:53 <oerjan> i'll make a terrible pun, and then i'll call him Attila.
13:46:05 <oerjan> what the heck, someone on Uncyclopedia already thought of that
13:46:41 <oklopol> i don't get it
13:46:58 <oerjan> Attila, the terrible pun
13:49:29 <oklopol> hmm right, i was actually going by a more strict definition of pun
13:49:48 <oerjan> wise advice from Uncyclopedia: "Although puns don.t kill people, people kill people who make puns."
13:51:04 <oerjan> what strict definition?
13:54:41 <oklopol> well i didn't see the small hamming distance enough to associate pun and hun.
13:54:48 <oklopol> *as enough
13:56:26 <oerjan> i c
13:57:15 <oklopol> you don't even have eyes
13:59:06 <oerjan> yes i do.  my rumors of my polygoniality have been strongly exaggerated
13:59:21 <oerjan> *the
13:59:49 <oerjan> or was that a freudian slip, hm
14:23:11 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf 0.1> #<:#<.#<:#<0#<0#<p#<+#<0#<0#<g#<\# <
14:23:11 <fungot> ..
14:28:40 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf >>+++++++[<<+[>+++<-]>[<+++>-]>-]<<
14:29:32 <oklopol> will fungot die if given an infloop?
14:29:51 <KingOfKarlsruhe> the number is very big
14:30:02 <KingOfKarlsruhe> 5380839
14:35:33 <jemarch> nice, the king of karlsruhe :D
14:35:51 <KingOfKarlsruhe> hehe
14:36:05 <jemarch> :)
14:37:24 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf
14:37:24 <KingOfKarlsruhe> >>+++++++[<<+[>+++<-]>[<+++>-]>-]<<>>>>+++++++[<<+[>+++<-]>[<+++>-]>-]<<>>>>+++++++[<<+[>+++<-]>[<+++>-]>-]<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[->+>++>+++<<<]>>>-------------------------------------------.+++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++.---------------------.--------------.++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++.---------.+++++++.++++.<----------------------------------------------.>-----------.++++++++++.<.>---
14:37:24 <KingOfKarlsruhe> -------------.++++++++++++..---.<.>++++++++++++.<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
14:38:13 <jemarch> uh oh :)
14:38:42 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf >>+++++++[<<+[>+++<-]>[<+++>-]>-]<<>>>>+++++++[<<+[>+++<-]>[<+++>-]>-]<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[->+<]>++++++++++++++.--.+++++.--------.++++++++.-----.++++++.
14:38:43 <fungot>  ...out of time!
14:38:49 <oklopol> :o
14:38:53 <KingOfKarlsruhe> hehehe
14:39:15 <oklopol> KingOfKarlsruhe: you printed that after a ridiculously long computation, or fizzie has a timeout?
14:39:56 <KingOfKarlsruhe> i calculate 2 big numbers and then i print a string
14:40:20 <KingOfKarlsruhe> and this break fizzie
14:40:42 <jemarch> hm
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17:04:32 <asiekierka> hi
17:04:36 <asiekierka> I was on a trip for one day
17:04:50 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:04:56 <asiekierka> and i made 3 comics
17:05:01 <asiekierka> 2 of which i'm going to publish
17:05:04 <asiekierka> s/comics/screebles
17:05:20 * ais523 waits to say hi to tusho until e's back
17:07:14 <asiekierka> Ok
17:07:17 <asiekierka> JPGed them
17:07:18 <asiekierka> now upping
17:07:34 <asiekierka> Then i may find a better server
17:07:35 <asiekierka> or look for one
17:09:35 <asiekierka> Actually, comic #22 beat my record of the longest comic
17:09:40 <asiekierka> #16 was the longest, before i made #22.
17:09:47 <asiekierka> That beast took me a longa time
17:09:48 <asiekierka> s/comic/screeble
17:10:03 <asiekierka> Okay
17:10:17 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles - Comic #21 and #22 is there
17:10:27 <asiekierka> Both comics have some hints :P
17:10:38 <asiekierka> Some secrets.
17:11:52 <asiekierka> I know i cut the text on the bottom... sorry.
17:12:14 <asiekierka> But that doesn't break anything. It's just testing anyway.
17:19:39 <dogface> asiekierka: have you received a Normish password?
17:21:33 <asiekierka> where should i receive it?
17:21:34 <asiekierka> since no
17:22:17 <ais523> adduser: The user `asiekierka' already exists.
17:22:21 <dogface> Whoever activated your passwd proposal should have given it to you.
17:22:26 <asiekierka> I wasn't on
17:22:28 <asiekierka> at that time
17:22:29 <asiekierka> maybe
17:22:30 <asiekierka> :D
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18:20:26 <asiekierka> heh
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18:33:37 <asiekierka> fungot's there
18:33:38 <asiekierka> yay
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18:41:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | well.
18:42:07 <asiekierka> optbot!
18:42:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | print *dot.
18:42:09 <asiekierka> optbot!
18:42:09 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | not thou!.
18:42:20 <ais523> optbot?
18:42:20 <optbot> ais523: although if you pass it by reference it won't be much anyhow
18:42:27 <ais523> optbot?
18:42:27 <optbot> ais523: yes :p
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19:09:23 <tusho> hi ais523
19:09:29 <ais523> hi tusho
19:09:31 <ais523> and welcome back
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20:51:32 <fizzie> Evening.
20:51:37 <ais523> evening
20:51:44 <MikeRiley> evening
20:51:47 <pikhq> Afternoon.
20:59:10 <tusho> Night.
20:59:10 <tusho> :P
21:00:39 <oklopol> morning
21:00:50 <ais523> oklopol: is it morning where you are?
21:00:53 <fizzie> No.
21:00:57 <fizzie> Unless he's on a trip.
21:01:00 <fizzie> He might be, actually.
21:01:08 <fizzie> What with the tooth-brushing at an odd time.
21:01:09 <tusho> Hmm. Garageband is fun.
21:01:22 * ais523 just did /ctcp #esoteric time
21:01:39 <ais523> for a couple of people here, it's Saturday already
21:01:53 <ais523> and it's only early afternoon for MikeRiley
21:02:01 <tusho> I made two things in Garageband today and one yesterday. It is too addictive.
21:02:03 <MikeRiley> yep....only 1pm here...
21:02:11 <tusho> (Warning: Will make you want to rip your ears off. Possibly.) http://filebin.ca/afherd The Song's Title is "The Song's Title Is", http://filebin.ca/ucfxpg XXXXXXXXX (That's 7 Xs), http://filebin.ca/wpchxe Happy Happy Fun Time P.S. Please Kill Yourself
21:03:04 <tusho> (Or if you're the people I've showed them to so far, you'll like them. This probably means you're deaf. Go figure.)
21:03:13 <oklopol> fizzie: i brushed my teeth when i woke up
21:03:16 <ais523> tusho: you wrote those?
21:03:22 <oklopol> but no i'm never on a trip
21:03:23 <ais523> (n.b. I'm not listening to them)
21:03:28 <tusho> ais523: Pieced them together in Garageband. :P
21:03:29 <fizzie> oklopol; Wasn't it quite late?
21:03:32 <oklopol> and garageband isn't good
21:03:38 <tusho> oklopol: i didn't say good
21:03:38 <tusho> I said fun
21:03:41 <tusho> which it is
21:03:56 <oklopol> the matrix view doesn't let you do anything but 1/2^n length notes
21:04:02 <oklopol> good = fun
21:04:11 <oklopol> for my purposes
21:04:39 <tusho> Well, I had fun messing about with it and I'm happy with the little things I made with it.
21:04:40 <tusho> So there. :P
21:05:03 <oklopol> fizzie: what time was it?
21:05:07 <oklopol> i don't remember
21:05:29 <fizzie> oklopol; 12:43:40.
21:05:46 <oklopol> 8|
21:05:52 <oklopol> that's late for you? :P
21:06:03 <oklopol> i usually never wake up before 15
21:06:03 <tusho> fizzie: AM or PM?
21:06:51 <fizzie> 24-hour clock, so PM.
21:07:09 <tusho> fizzie: 12 is late? :|
21:07:28 <ais523> well I was asleep at 12
21:07:28 <tusho> On a time note, I am getting up at 5:25 on the 18th.
21:07:29 <tusho> \o/
21:07:32 <ais523> so you could infer that it was late
21:07:34 <tusho> :D
21:07:36 <fizzie> Well, yes; I am usually at work at 09AM.
21:07:41 <oklopol> tusho: those sound like real instruments
21:07:46 <tusho> oklopol: they're not :P
21:08:00 <oklopol> okay, garageband has really improved then :D
21:12:17 <oklopol> anyway you actually wrote these, and didn't put together existing samples and add the stuff that sounds random after that :P
21:12:27 <oklopol> just checking because this is not that bad
21:13:24 <dogface> tusho: are those MP3s without the .mp3?
21:13:38 <tusho> dogface: Quite.
21:13:46 <tusho> oklopol: Uh, I may have pilfered a few samples. :P
21:14:21 * dogface allegedly listens to one
21:14:46 <oklopol> tusho: the recursive title was my fav
21:15:06 <oklopol> also HHFTPKY's fast guitar thingie in the end
21:15:17 <ais523> "This is the title of this story, which also appears several times in the story itself."
21:15:28 <ais523> the title of a rather pointless story in which every sentence was self-referential
21:15:30 <dogface> tusho: my brother says he heard 'The Song's Title is "The Song's Title Is"' on WordGirl once.
21:15:36 <ais523> it spent most of its time arguing about what its plot is
21:15:44 <tusho> dogface: Haha wut
21:15:46 <dogface> ais523: fun!
21:15:56 <ais523> I can't remember where I saw it though, it isn't mine
21:15:57 <dogface> tusho: I guess they stole your song.
21:16:03 <tusho> dogface: Crazy.
21:16:10 <tusho> dogface: Wait, including the crazy bit at 1:12?
21:16:21 <tusho> And all the "AND NOW FOR SOME UNRELATED PIANO" bits? :P
21:16:32 <dogface> Are you damaging my speakers with very high-amplitude low-frequency sounds?
21:16:34 <dogface> tusho: /me shrugs.
21:17:00 <tusho> dogface: You mean the bass at the end of HHFTPKY?
21:17:01 <tusho> :P
21:17:31 <dogface> Who knows.
21:17:45 <tusho> I think that every peice of silence in music should be a very high or low pitched sound though.
21:17:54 <tusho> Maybe something like a dog whistle.
21:17:58 <tusho> "Huh?? What is it??"
21:18:06 <ais523> tusho: actually in practice it is
21:18:08 <tusho> "Why are you freaking out? Everything's silent!"
21:18:12 <tusho> ais523: Well, yes.
21:18:14 <ais523> at least when recorded onto tape
21:18:20 <tusho> ais523: You know what I meant :P
21:18:45 <ais523> so that the magnetic read head doesn't distort the signal due to its weirdness at low amplitudes
21:19:08 <dogface> Cool.
21:19:10 <ais523> and yes, I know what I meant, but seeing as I'm an electronic engineer (in training) I may as well show off when a question in my field actually comes up, which is rarely
21:19:26 <dogface> Happy Happy Happy is nice.
21:19:52 <dogface> ais523: do they teach you stuff like how to compile Proce programs into electronics?
21:19:53 <tusho> There's only two happies. :P
21:20:10 <dogface> That's why I referred to it as Happy Happy Happy Happy.
21:20:11 <ais523> dogface: not Proce, but they did teach us how to compile VHDL into electronics
21:21:27 <oklopol> tusho: well these sound like nice riffs pieced together randomly, so i'm just gonna assume everything that sounds good is not from you :P
21:21:34 <oklopol> make something from scratch, i wanna hear
21:21:46 <ais523> oklopol: have you heard my Hello, World in Fugue yet?
21:21:55 <oklopol> ais523: ofc
21:21:57 <tusho> oklopol: I can assure you that you do not want to hear the cacophony that occurs when I try and make music from scratch.
21:22:01 <dogface> ais523: but VHDL is digital! :-)
21:22:03 <tusho> Also, HHFTPKY isn't that random. :P
21:22:18 <pikhq> Whoo.
21:22:18 <tusho> And that synthy interlude I did! :-P
21:22:22 <pikhq> I is in dorm.
21:22:23 <dogface> Well, you guys are making me want to create music from scratch.
21:22:30 <ais523> dogface: yes, digital's easier to compile because you can make the electronics first and then change it slightly, that doesn't work as well with analog (although is still possible)
21:22:39 <Mony> a duck
21:22:42 <Mony> _o<
21:22:47 <dogface> Mony: no, a cow.
21:23:08 <tusho> oklopol: Hm well I could give you iteration #358723849234 of "OMGWTFBBQ"
21:23:10 <oklopol> dogface: i'm assuming you took that literally and are finding a magnet to use on your cd
21:23:10 <Mony> http://www.slinkycity.com/cartoonanimals/ASCIICows/?index.html here cows are
21:23:16 <tusho> Which is a long story but it basically ends up in 2006
21:23:24 <tusho> when I was bored and playing with audacity
21:23:25 <oklopol> i meant just composing a song :)
21:23:34 <tusho> oklopol: I composed OMGWTFBBQ's revisions. :P
21:23:58 <dogface> Yay, cows.
21:24:03 <tusho> It's a bit ... atonal in its latest (satanic gospel metal) version, though.
21:24:11 <oklopol> tusho: i don't recall
21:24:18 <tusho> oklopol: No, it wasn't in here.
21:24:28 <tusho> brb.
21:25:06 <oklopol> ais523: if you remember, i was even planning to enhance your hello world into a nicer piece (no offense ofc, it's not that bad as it is)
21:25:20 <ais523> I don't remember, that's why I asked
21:25:35 <ais523> and no, I rather like it as is, it sounded awful the first time but grew on me
21:25:46 <oklopol> songs tend to do that
21:26:28 <oklopol> a few times, i've composed half of a song, and filled the rest with some random crap; then later found out i cannot fill the spaces with anything but deretardations of the random stuff, because they simply belong there.
21:27:03 <oklopol> (deretardations = removing the obviously ugly stuff, usually my random crap sounds okay)
21:28:50 <oklopol> ais523: can you link me a mid of mp3 or something for the HW
21:29:05 <ais523> ?
21:29:10 <oklopol> helloworld
21:29:20 <ais523> I have a .ogg version, I'll paste it again
21:29:27 <ais523> or I can link the mid
21:29:27 <oklopol> yes, thanks
21:29:33 <oklopol> either way is good
21:29:38 * dogface ponders how he would turn the Thue-Morse sequence into a sound
21:29:53 <ais523> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/fugue/src/hworld.mid
21:29:57 <oklopol> i could, of course, take some other simple program, and try to make it sound nice
21:30:11 <ais523> I tried to make a nice-sounding hello world once
21:30:19 <ais523> but in the end just used the output of my brainfuck -> fugue compiler
21:30:29 <ais523> which was so nonportable I think it wouldn't have run on any computer other than mine
21:30:52 <oklopol> did that sound nice?
21:31:03 <ais523> it worked by using VBA's SendKeys to send keystrokes to a proprietary MIDI editor, whose keyboard shortcuts I set up in advance to play nicely with my program
21:31:16 <ais523> oklopol: yes, that's the output I linked and it's quite nice
21:31:19 <ais523> but I didn't make it by hand
21:31:27 <ais523> although probably it would have been faster than writing the compiler
21:34:10 <oklopol> ) If the top value on the stack is nonzero, skip back past the matching (. <<< past in what direction
21:34:27 <ais523> oklopol: it's like [ and ] in Brainfuck
21:34:32 <oklopol> good
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21:34:42 <ais523> but it loops all lines, not just the one you're on
21:34:49 <oklopol> yeah
21:34:59 <oklopol> figured
21:35:04 <tusho> BACK
21:35:06 <tusho> *back
21:35:09 <ais523> it's easiest to leave a NOP in the other lines corresponding to the ( and )
21:35:17 <ais523> otherwise it's possible to get very confused very quickly
21:35:23 <ais523> (my hello, world always NOPs in those situations)
21:35:47 <ais523> wb tusho
21:35:58 <oklopol> hmm
21:36:08 <oklopol> you don't really need two voices for hw do ya
21:36:15 <ais523> no, you don't
21:36:21 <ais523> although it helps to make the program shorter
21:36:22 <dark_templar> Hey, my Brainfuck bot does everything except for loops so far :>
21:36:43 <ais523> dark_templar: how are you planning to implement loops?
21:36:45 <oklopol> well you can, then, use that for chords or something, and not actually use it for anything
21:36:53 <tusho> dark_templar: i am assuming that you are just using nc -e
21:36:54 <tusho> right?
21:37:11 <dark_templar> Well
21:37:13 <dark_templar> if I encounter p
21:37:13 <tusho> not that unneeded tiny-modification asiekierka made
21:37:17 <tusho> ah.
21:37:19 <dark_templar> blah, if I encounter [
21:37:23 <tusho> that unneeded tiny-modification then
21:37:25 <dark_templar> I scan for ]
21:37:36 <tusho> dark_templar: Oh, you're still implementing Brainfuck.
21:37:37 <oklopol> ais523: but you only need like 5 operations for each character even without the other voice
21:37:37 <dark_templar> get positions of both and push up to a stack
21:37:38 <tusho> Quaint.
21:37:40 <oklopol> right?
21:38:03 <dark_templar> Python fails with pop from empty stack and I can't grasp where the problem is
21:38:06 <ais523> oklopol: well yes, although you need to either use a loop or several increments in order to get the letters of hello world
21:38:10 <ais523> because 'H' > 9
21:38:13 <tusho> dark_templar: why not just use an existing BF interpreter
21:38:22 <dark_templar> cuz it'd be no fun.
21:38:27 <oklopol> ais523: right there's no multiplication
21:38:28 <tusho> and use "nc -c 'bfi bot.b' irc.freenode.net 6667"
21:38:30 <oklopol> i suck
21:38:37 <tusho> dark_templar: implementing BF takes 3 minutes, you seem to be struggling.
21:38:42 <ais523> oklopol: you can do multiplication the same way as Brainfuck, that's how my hello world works
21:38:45 <tusho> you've been at it for days in #esoteric-blah, after all.
21:39:14 <oklopol> ais523: i know, i'm an esolang programmer, i just didn't realize there isn't a multiplication operator
21:40:05 <oklopol> wanna give me a few pointers about how to use the two stacks, i may be missing some of the usefulness you can get from the multiple threads
21:40:57 <ais523> oklopol: use the top of each stack as a temporary variable, push from one stack to the other to move the variables along an imaginary "tape"
21:41:10 <ais523> it's like programming in Brainfuck except that you can read either at the pointer or at the cell after
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21:41:30 <oklopol> well yeah, i get that
21:41:41 <oklopol> was just thinking, there's two threads
21:42:07 <oklopol> but i think i'll discover the usefulness of everything once i have the time to work on it, which is prolly tomorrow
21:42:10 <oklopol> see you then, maybe ->
21:44:18 * dogface decides he's screeble-satisfied
21:45:59 <dogface> I seem to remember Glass being a wonderful language or something.
21:46:02 <dark_templar> Found that loop-bug! Lack of one 'break'!
21:46:15 <dogface> Probably has a lot to do with the name of it.
21:46:47 <RodgerTheGreat> dogface: it's fairly interesting and powerful, but not well documented
21:46:51 <dogface> If I called a language Forensic Engineering, I'd probably like it even more.
21:46:59 <RodgerTheGreat> I think gregor likes it better that way
21:47:12 <tusho> I'd like a language called (Possibly) Impending Doom
21:47:14 <oerjan> http://www.icaneatglass.com/
21:47:26 <tusho> 2 girls 1 glass.
21:47:44 * oerjan read that as Implementing Doom for a moment
21:48:07 <dogface> I read your "Implementing Doom" as "Impending Doom" for a moment.
21:49:34 <dogface> Hmm. Forensic engineering is really only much fun when it happens on the Moon.
21:49:56 <tusho> Forensic Mooning.
21:50:03 <tusho> Forensic Mooningeering.
21:50:23 <oerjan> coincidentally, i just got to http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1410
21:50:29 <dogface> "The Moon is the only celestial body to which humans have travelled and upon which humans have landed." I wonder how long I've spent thinking we've been to Mars as well.
21:50:40 <tusho> dogface: Seriously?
21:51:24 <oerjan> you should understand that within the context of that comic, the cheese is entirely unsurprising
21:51:40 <oerjan> perhaps less surprising than the rocks
21:52:58 <dogface> Wait, does this mean nobody has visited a celestial body since 1972?
21:53:10 <oerjan> or thereabouts
21:53:46 <dogface> We need a new cold war. :-P
21:53:59 <oerjan> be careful what you wish for, etc.
21:54:17 <tusho> dogface: Bit underinformed, aren't we :P
21:54:32 <dogface> Yep.
21:54:41 <oerjan> also, the chinese will probably do it soon
21:54:54 <oerjan> cold war or not
21:54:56 <dogface> That's what I get for reading comics where there are rovers on Venus and a permanent colony on the Moon.
21:55:35 <oerjan> the scifi future has been somewhat unevenly implemented
21:56:11 <oerjan> cyberspace is coming around fairly nicely.  as nicely as you can get without true AI i guess
21:57:53 <oerjan> we _do_ have rovers on Mars, in case you didn't know
21:58:01 <oerjan> Venus has some ... problems
21:58:04 <ais523> oerjan: yes, see the ICFP contest for instance
21:58:08 <dogface> I knew about Mars, yes. :-)
21:58:10 <ais523> although many of them got eaten by Martians
21:58:23 <ais523> well, not eaten, sacrificed to their gods, but probably eaten afterwards
21:58:38 <tusho> So ais523, if you win, how many %age of the winnings will go to fund ESO creating a martian base? :-P
21:58:50 <ais523> probably 0, negative if I can get away with it
21:58:53 * oerjan didn't follow this years ICFP contest much
21:59:13 <ais523> I qualified through the first 7 knockout rounds in both the lightning and the main competitions
21:59:50 <oerjan> *'s
22:00:06 <oerjan> martians can eat metal?
22:00:14 <tusho> ais523: But how will we build a martian base now?!
22:00:18 <dogface> Only antimetal.
22:00:39 <oerjan> antimatter is rather hot food
22:00:42 <dogface> Luckily, all successful Mars landings were successful because they went through an odd wormhole, turning them into antimatter.
22:00:59 <dogface> That's how they power their internal annihilation engines.
22:01:04 <oerjan> aha
22:01:17 <dogface> Wait, I got that wrong.
22:01:55 <dogface> All successful Mars landings were successful because they went through EVEN wormholes, thereby NOT turning them into antimatter, thereby making the Martians not like them.
22:02:11 <oerjan> if you say so
22:02:37 <oerjan> an even number of wormholes, i take it you mean
22:02:39 <dogface> "Of 38 launches from Earth in an attempt to reach the planet, only 19 succeeded, a success rate of 50%." Do you think a probability of exactly 50% is just a coincidence?
22:03:06 <dogface> An even number of odd wormholes, I guess, odd wormhole meaning a wormhole that turns stuff into antimatter.
22:05:31 <oerjan> well, clearly there should be any combination of P,C, and T wormholes, except that PCT may be the identity
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22:05:59 <oerjan> *CPT
22:06:40 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPT_symmetry
22:10:10 <dogface> Hmm. A T wormhole would spew antimatter. A C wormhole would change the charge of everything going through it, which, in practice, probably means it would spew antimatter. A P wormhole would just mirror everything.
22:10:42 <oerjan> C spews antimatter, is what i thought
22:10:48 <oerjan> T reverses time
22:13:04 <dogface> Isn't it hypothesized or something that antimatter is equivalent to matter going through time in reverse?
22:14:34 <oerjan> i'm vague on this, although i thought that was part of the whole CPT thing
22:17:37 <tusho> .
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22:19:26 <oerjan> the article on T-symmetry has a relevant paragraph
22:19:47 <oerjan> "because due to the conservation of the CPT symmetry, the effect of time reversal is to rename particles as antiparticles and vice versa"
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23:24:23 <oklopol> # + - ascending fourth or tritone
23:24:24 <oklopol> # - - descending fourth or tritone
23:24:29 <oklopol> ais523: explain?
23:24:38 <ais523> a tritone is exactly half an octave
23:24:44 <ais523> from C to F#
23:24:45 <oklopol> err yeah i know that
23:24:46 <oklopol> i mean
23:24:47 <ais523> or the same interval
23:24:54 <oklopol> how can they both be tritone?
23:25:02 <ais523> tritone upwards, tritone downwards
23:25:06 <ais523> e.g. C then F# is +
23:25:09 <ais523> F# then C is -
23:25:14 <ais523> and C F# C is +-
23:25:18 <oklopol> right!
23:25:19 <oklopol> okay
23:25:20 <ais523> (if the C is lower than the F#)
23:25:23 <oklopol> i was thinking
23:25:33 <oklopol> ascending was a term for sharp :P
23:25:33 <ais523> intervals of an octave or more are NOPs
23:25:57 <oklopol> or a seventh
23:27:08 <oklopol> well
23:27:18 <oklopol> actually i read the descriptions completely wrong
23:27:45 <oklopol> just assumed they went 0 1 2 3 4 5 6, as the first was unison, and last was sixth
23:27:55 <oklopol> i'm a bit too tired i think
23:28:23 <oklopol> btw
23:28:43 <oklopol> your examples on ascending and descending tritones are a bit... useless :D
23:29:19 <ais523> yes, that's why I put the note at the end
23:29:22 <ais523> when I realised my mistake
23:29:29 <oklopol> oh, right
23:29:40 <oklopol> sorry, i seem to be unable to think atm
23:29:56 <oklopol> or, well, read
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23:48:59 <psygnisfive> llalaaalala
23:49:53 <tusho> psygnisfive i have definitive proof that i am not a girl
23:49:59 <tusho> DEFINITIVE
23:50:05 <psygnisfive> a picture of your girlcock?
23:50:08 <psygnisfive> your boyclit?
23:50:09 <tusho> ...
23:50:10 <tusho> no.
23:50:15 <psygnisfive> then its not definitive, is it/
23:50:41 <psygnisfive> tusho, i believe you're a boy, you know this.
23:50:59 <tusho> yes, but AnMaster doesn't
23:50:59 <tusho> :-P
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23:51:07 <psygnisfive> ok
23:51:11 <psygnisfive> well show me this definitive proof
23:51:24 -!- nice has changed nick to nice_ka.
23:51:54 <tusho> it's just a photo of me that doesn't look female :P
23:52:00 <psygnisfive> ok
23:52:01 <tusho> two photos, actually, this delay is me deciding which one is less hideously ugly
23:52:04 <psygnisfive> do show tusho
23:52:04 <tusho> (i was very tired when i took them.)
23:52:13 <psygnisfive> show me both of them.
23:52:31 <tusho> no
23:52:31 <tusho> >:(
23:52:34 <psygnisfive> why not?
23:52:38 <tusho> although theoretically, you could URL hack to find the other one
23:52:43 <tusho> but don't. because it's even more ugly
23:52:50 <tusho> because I was very tired
23:52:55 <psygnisfive> so?
23:52:56 <tusho> http://tentaclerapture.com/lulz/photo2.jpg
23:53:11 <psygnisfive> you still look like a girl but ok.
23:53:16 <tusho> no i don't.
23:53:16 <tusho> :(
23:53:45 <psygnisfive> i dont like your smile. or your septum.
23:53:52 <psygnisfive> but you have those double incisors which is always cute.
23:54:05 <tusho> oh shut up
23:54:15 <psygnisfive> ::rape::
23:54:19 <tusho> ow
23:55:08 <tusho> psygnisfive why are you using gnome-vfs to download that
23:55:19 <psygnisfive> what?
23:55:25 <tusho> i have the log entries to prove it
23:55:27 <psygnisfive> i used safari, manchild.
23:55:30 <tusho> :P
23:55:35 <tusho> hmmm
23:55:38 <tusho> ok, someone else is doing that then
23:55:39 <psygnisfive> girlboything!
23:55:44 <tusho> whoever did that, that's creepy :P
23:55:51 <psygnisfive> whats gnome-vfs?
23:56:06 <tusho> psygnisfive: the gnome component that lets it treat http:// and ftp:// and such as filesystems
23:56:15 <psygnisfive> o.o;
23:56:24 <psygnisfive> gnome virtual file syste,?
23:56:27 <tusho> yes
23:56:30 <psygnisfive> ah.
23:56:31 <tusho> psygnisfive: so that ftp://foo.com/ would, e.g. work in a file browser
23:56:33 <psygnisfive> speaking of virtual things
23:56:34 <tusho> or anything else that consumes files
23:56:36 <tusho> basically like a kpart
23:56:44 <psygnisfive> virtual memory is funky
23:56:44 <tusho> also, lol, you navigated to the root of tentaclerapture.com
23:57:03 <psygnisfive> ::tentacle rapes you::
23:57:25 <tusho> that would be funny if the domain wasn't explicitly picked as that pun
23:57:49 <psygnisfive> i want to be tentacle raped :(
23:58:33 <tusho> just wait for the rapture, then
23:58:43 <psygnisfive> the... TENTACLE RAPTURE!
23:58:53 <tusho> tada.
23:58:59 <tusho> originally we wanted velociraptu.re
23:59:04 <tusho> but you have to be a citizen of Reunion for that
23:59:16 <psygnisfive> you could always do
23:59:24 <psygnisfive> velocitap.tu/re
23:59:36 <psygnisfive> or some suitable mangling thereof
23:59:44 <psygnisfive> velo.cirap.tu/re
23:59:45 <tusho> well yea, but that's kind of ugly
23:59:52 <tusho> it's easier to type foo.bar
23:59:56 <tusho> than add some slashes and shit to it
23:59:57 <psygnisfive> so?
23:59:59 <tusho> that's just strained

2008-08-16:

00:00:03 <psygnisfive> noones going to actually GO to it
00:00:08 <tusho> psygnisfive: i beg to differ
00:00:24 <psygnisfive> i deny you your differing.
00:00:35 <tusho> psygnisfive: it started last month and has 16 members, most of which are active
00:00:41 <tusho> and it gets a healthy stream of visits each day
00:00:45 <psygnisfive> what IS tentaclerapture, btw?
00:00:47 <tusho> and more members come in every few days
00:00:52 <tusho> and I'd tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.
00:01:00 <tusho> and no tentacles would be involved.
00:01:09 -!- nice_ka has changed nick to KingOfKarlsruhe.
00:01:33 <psygnisfive> D:
00:01:45 <psygnisfive> ehird/nomads doesnt work as a un/pw combination!
00:01:46 <psygnisfive> lame.
00:02:05 <tusho> that would be tusho, anyway
00:02:08 <tusho> but nomads isn't my password :p
00:02:10 <tusho> it's *shot*
00:02:17 <tusho> damn, and I was just about to tell you my password
00:02:19 <tusho> which is *shot*
00:02:20 <psygnisfive> what is tentacle rapture? :|
00:02:27 <tusho> psygnisfive: Secret, that's what.
00:02:31 <psygnisfive> :o
00:02:33 <psygnisfive> awesome.
00:02:45 <tusho> Well, the domain isn't secret.
00:02:51 <tusho> Access beyond the login page is.
00:05:50 <tusho> Well, access can't be "secret", more _the thing behind the login page_ is secret
00:05:55 <tusho> and can only be gained through access
00:06:54 <tusho> Hmm.
00:06:59 <tusho> I wonder if anyone has 'password' as their password.
00:07:11 <psygnisfive> if they do, they should be shot.
00:07:14 <tusho> That'd probably be ban-worthy. (Except not really. I'd just change it.)
00:07:20 <tusho> (And slap them if I ever meet them in person.)
00:07:35 <psygnisfive> so tell me, seriously, whats tr for
00:07:42 <tusho> Being secret.
00:07:44 <psygnisfive> besides hosting pictures of your pedobate self?
00:08:04 <tusho> (And my comics.)
00:08:10 <tusho> Well, the only thing I can tell you is what you already know.
00:08:13 <tusho> Everything on the login page. :P
00:08:17 <psygnisfive> you has comics
00:08:17 <psygnisfive> ?
00:08:25 <tusho> http://tentaclerapture.com/milkweasal/1
00:08:34 <tusho> if you don't laugh at each and every one of them you're mentally damaged
00:08:56 <tusho> p.s. yes I know it's spelt weasel
00:09:01 <tusho> weasals are the exact opposite of weasels.
00:09:19 <psygnisfive> i dont get the norway one :O
00:09:24 <tusho> also, if you don't find some of them funny, say "glass plate" then look at it again
00:09:27 <tusho> you should burst into flames.
00:09:28 <tusho> and laughter.
00:09:41 <psygnisfive> i dont get it :(
00:09:58 <tusho> psygnisfive: Then you must be mentally damaged! :p
00:10:04 <psygnisfive> oh very
00:10:11 <tusho> yeah
00:10:13 <tusho> we should lock you up
00:10:20 <tusho> maybe you'll laugh at #3
00:10:24 <tusho> it is hilarious after all
00:10:39 <psygnisfive> it all looks like just.. art.
00:10:41 <psygnisfive> not comic
00:11:40 <tusho> that's what rodger said (see #4)
00:11:42 <tusho> but then
00:11:44 <tusho> I bought a comic license
00:11:54 <tusho> it costs £5,000,000 and it lets you call one thing you own a comic
00:12:03 <psygnisfive> ha :)
00:12:03 <tusho> plus it's pretty hilarious so there
00:12:43 <psygnisfive> i dont get 3 :D
00:12:54 <tusho> i see a slight pattern in this
00:12:54 <tusho> :D
00:13:09 <psygnisfive> fuck
00:13:15 <psygnisfive> i killed the dock and now it wont restart
00:13:24 <tusho> psygnisfive: open terminal, open -a Dock?
00:13:34 <psygnisfive> i cant get to the terminal!
00:13:38 <tusho> psygnisfive: yes you can
00:13:42 <tusho> desktop -> harddrive
00:13:47 <tusho> -> applications -> utilities -> terminal
00:13:49 <tusho> open -a Dock
00:13:50 <tusho> voila
00:13:52 <psygnisfive> i cant get to the harddrive since its not on my desktop
00:13:59 <psygnisfive> but i do have a way to get to the terminal, i remembered
00:14:01 <psygnisfive> i have quicksilver
00:14:02 <psygnisfive> :D
00:14:06 <tusho> psygnisfive: or click desktop, cmd-n
00:14:15 <psygnisfive> but my harddrive isnt on the desktop
00:14:25 <tusho> psygnisfive: it doesn't need to be
00:14:28 <tusho> desktop focuses finder
00:14:31 <tusho> cmd-n in finder opens hd
00:14:33 <tusho> well
00:14:34 <tusho> opens ~
00:14:34 <psygnisfive> oh youre right
00:14:38 <psygnisfive> well no matter
00:14:41 <psygnisfive> i have QS
00:14:45 <psygnisfive> i forgot it did :X
00:14:57 <tusho> oh, and if you really want to know what TR is, then the login page should be helpful
00:15:25 <psygnisfive> rodger-style riddlegame!?
00:15:55 <tusho> no...
00:15:58 <tusho> just look at the damn login page
00:15:59 <tusho> :P
00:16:40 <psygnisfive> i am D:
00:16:57 <tusho> psygnisfive: are you blind or something
00:16:59 <tusho> look at ALL of it
00:17:00 <tusho> :P
00:17:19 <psygnisfive> i am! its just a login form and some copyright stuff
00:17:31 <tusho> so examine both parts
00:17:49 <psygnisfive> "Lussumo Vanilla, Swell, and People Copyright © 2001-2006"
00:17:53 <psygnisfive> what about it
00:18:01 <tusho> there's a link, dude. :P
00:18:06 <psygnisfive> yes i went there
00:18:29 <tusho> it's the forum package TR uses, it's a private forum with an alglamation of people from various places over the web
00:18:43 <tusho> (though a custom rewrite is coming soon because the current software is fucking us around.)
00:18:54 <psygnisfive> ok so its a forum, thats not the question :P
00:19:01 <tusho> ok, what is the question then
00:19:05 <psygnisfive> whats it FOR
00:19:30 <tusho> discussing/sharing ideas. creations. amusing things. random crap.
00:19:35 <psygnisfive> NOMADS
00:19:38 <tusho> yes
00:19:40 <tusho> nomads too
00:19:43 <psygnisfive> thats what you are! you are nomads!
00:19:46 <psygnisfive> cybernomads!
00:19:56 <tusho> all that was actually a total lie
00:19:59 <tusho> when you log into tentaclerapture
00:20:02 <tusho> you see ... nomads
00:20:04 <tusho> you see them
00:20:04 <psygnisfive> roaming outside the well built up and mapped territory of cyberspace
00:20:06 <tusho> you see them all
00:20:12 <tusho> you see the very essence of nomads - themselves
00:20:13 <psygnisfive> treading where few have gone
00:20:17 <tusho> and then you die.
00:20:21 <psygnisfive> you are the net gypsies
00:20:27 <psygnisfive> the web wanderers
00:20:32 * oerjan wonders if you can be a cybernomad without your body ever moving
00:20:47 <psygnisfive> oerjan: cyberspace is a realm of ideas, of mind, pure thought and meme
00:20:59 <oerjan> and porn
00:21:03 <psygnisfive> mostly porn.
00:21:31 <tusho> porn is arguably a meme
00:22:13 <psygnisfive> oh so i have this rather large, 17 inch long gigantic dildo and last night, to my delight, i found a video on xtube of a guy taking the ENTIRE length
00:22:21 <psygnisfive> its not very flexible either
00:22:23 <psygnisfive> <3
00:22:35 <tusho> wonderful
00:22:51 <tusho> we ... really needed to know that
00:23:00 <psygnisfive> ;)
00:23:01 <tusho> oerjan: i think now you give us a terrible pun
00:23:03 <tusho> to break the silence
00:23:29 <psygnisfive> theres no silence
00:23:35 -!- Judofyr has quit.
00:23:42 <oklopol> you have 16 active users on a page with your comics?
00:23:45 <psygnisfive> tusho, i want you to help me come up with ideas.
00:23:48 <psygnisfive> you too oklopol.
00:23:51 <oklopol> what the fuck :)
00:23:59 <tusho> oklopol: no I just dump the comics on the same domain
00:24:00 <tusho> duh
00:24:00 <tusho> :P
00:24:09 <tusho> http://tentaclerapture.com/ is the real dealie
00:24:13 <tusho> well, the login page that you see isn't.
00:24:15 <oklopol> also you fuckers talked so fast logs went past the screen and i have to open logreader again
00:24:27 <psygnisfive> the entire website is about that log in page
00:24:35 <tusho> psygnisfive: awww
00:24:36 <psygnisfive> the log in page is a sort of social nexus for discussion
00:24:37 <tusho> you found me out
00:24:38 <oerjan> tusho: the silence is already broken, so i cannot fix it. er, wait.
00:24:38 <pikhq> #esoteric: the kink channel?
00:24:45 <psygnisfive> people go to the login page and discuss things
00:24:55 <tusho> psygnisfive: with telepathy, yes
00:24:58 <tusho> it's powered by nomads
00:25:00 <psygnisfive> exactly!
00:25:10 <psygnisfive> cybernomad powered electronic telepathy
00:25:35 <oklopol> psygnisfive: link
00:25:53 <psygnisfive> its a telepathic link, unfortunately. i cant give one to you unless you're a cybernomad.
00:25:54 <tusho> psygnisfive: to what, the video or TR
00:25:58 <tusho> http://tentaclerapture.com/ <- TR
00:26:04 <tusho> i have no fucking idea, ask psy <- video
00:26:07 <tusho> *psygnisfive
00:26:19 <psygnisfive> i dont even know what hes asking for a link to
00:26:21 <oklopol> video ofc
00:26:26 <psygnisfive> video of hat?
00:26:28 <psygnisfive> what*
00:26:32 <tusho> [00:22:15] <psygnisfive> oh so i have this rather large, 17 inch long gigantic dildo and last night, to my delight, i found a video on xtube of a guy taking the ENTIRE length
00:26:38 <psygnisfive> HAT VIDEO. VIDEO OF ALL SORTS OF HATS.
00:26:43 <psygnisfive> HABERDASHERS ABOUND.
00:26:47 <psygnisfive> oh, that? lemme find it
00:26:55 <oklopol> also tusho would make a cute girl, but then again so would many boys his age
00:27:04 <psygnisfive> http://video.xtube.com/watch.php?v_user_id=liltex&cv=0&idx=5&v=Joc0v-G419-&cl=fB3Bi-G419-&from=&ver=3&ccaa=1&qid=&qidx=&qnum=&video_type=0
00:27:12 <oklopol> he's more boy than girl still, imo
00:27:22 <oklopol> thanks
00:27:40 <psygnisfive> they're not cute guys tho :(
00:27:44 <psygnisfive> oklopol, you should make porn.
00:27:44 <dogface> psygnisfive: what do you mean by "taking"?
00:27:46 * tusho moves #esoteric -> #porn
00:27:53 <tusho> hmm
00:27:57 * tusho moves #porn -> #gayporn
00:28:02 <psygnisfive> taking, as in, he inserts the whole 13+ insertable inches in his ass.
00:28:22 <psygnisfive> no its probably 14 inches insertable
00:28:28 <dogface> Oh.
00:28:44 <oklopol> no bad, not bad
00:28:47 <tusho> dogface: were you imagining him, like, picking it up
00:28:54 <tusho> as opposed to only picking a few inches of it up
00:28:55 <pikhq> tusho: It's not gay, it's for those who like men. (you never know; there could be a girl into guys with dildos)
00:28:56 <psygnisfive> its pretty impressive, to have that whole thing inside you
00:29:01 <psygnisfive> then again
00:29:08 <psygnisfive> i HAVE seen guys get fisted up to the shoulder
00:29:12 <psygnisfive> which blows my mind
00:29:20 <tusho> pikhq: But the only people talking about the video are gay/bi guys. :P
00:29:22 <pikhq> That's got to do some damage.
00:29:27 <pikhq> tusho: Ah. Well, then.
00:29:38 <tusho> psygnisfive: Mmm. I love rearranging internal organs.
00:29:41 <psygnisfive> pikhq: i dont know, man. who knows.
00:29:45 <pikhq> Actually, I'm straight, and going "... That's a fucking huge dildo."
00:29:54 <oklopol> that's a cool trick
00:29:57 <pikhq> (and male)
00:30:06 <psygnisfive> lots of straight guys enjoy getting dildos.
00:30:07 <dogface> How easy is it to rearrange the internal organs?
00:30:10 <pikhq> So: impressed, yes. Turned on, not really.
00:30:20 <oklopol> awesome vid, but not really much sexier than someone swallowing a teapot
00:30:21 <psygnisfive> what gets you off sexually can be complicated with relation to notions like sexuality
00:30:26 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Said guys are probably not turned on by images of other guys getting dildos. :p
00:30:33 <psygnisfive> pikhq: indeed
00:30:43 <tusho> pikhq: hahahaha i'd love to watch a series of porn reviews done in the style of regular movie criticism
00:30:49 <pikhq> :D
00:30:55 <pikhq> That would be brilliant.
00:30:55 <tusho> that'd be hilarious
00:30:58 <psygnisfive> an interesting fetish some straight guys have is "forced homosexuality"
00:31:02 <psygnisfive> they dont like guys, nor sex with guys
00:31:11 <psygnisfive> but they like it when a dominatrix forces them to have sex with a guy
00:31:24 <psygnisfive> because its that whole humiliation/degredation/submission thing
00:31:37 <tusho> People have probably gotten off to SWAP.AVI.
00:31:41 <dogface> Easy enough that the abdomen is not completely rigid, removing the appendix doesn't leave a hole in you, and the stomach is not filled with air when empty. And we can breathe.
00:31:46 <tusho> (The thought of that both highly amuses me and highly disturbs me.)
00:31:46 <psygnisfive> swap.avi??
00:31:56 <tusho> psygnisfive: http://www.somethingawful.com/d/horrors-of-porn/horrible-saga-swapavi.php
00:32:07 <tusho> An epic saga.
00:32:24 <psygnisfive> can you just describe it?
00:32:38 <dogface> Not easy enough that--oh, never mind.
00:32:44 <tusho> psygnisfive: A member of the something awful forums says he's found a brazillian service where you can requset porn videos to be made.
00:32:58 <tusho> They compile a final description of what they want, which is hilariously over-the-top because they don't believe the poster.
00:33:00 <pikhq> Oh my dear *lord*.
00:33:06 <tusho> Finally, he solicits donations and ... no return. He is banned.
00:33:09 <tusho> A bit later?
00:33:13 <tusho> The link to SWAP.avi is posted.
00:33:26 <psygnisfive> oh, its an absurdist scat film?
00:33:42 <tusho> psygnisfive: It involves something awful memes at the start, too.
00:33:45 <tusho> That's pretty absurd.
00:33:49 <psygnisfive> thats awesome
00:33:52 <psygnisfive> its like art
00:34:00 <psygnisfive> someone should make an exhibit out of it, it'd be awesome
00:34:06 <oklopol> less talking, more linking
00:34:31 <tusho> http://i.somethingawful.com//sasbi/2006/12/elpintogrande/swap8.jpg <- Image You Should Not View Ever #8.
00:34:52 <psygnisfive> looks like a scene from 2 Girls 1 Cup, reprise
00:34:54 <dogface> Computers are not so flexible. Then again, they must be rigid so that their lungs don't collapse, causing death by hyperthermia.
00:35:00 <tusho> psygnisfive: googling found me this torrent
00:35:04 <tusho> http://btjunkie.org/torrent/SWAP-AVI-Metis-scat-swapping-film-from-MFX-Video/43240c2c564970d6f180381ba38634f872fcb2e6480c
00:35:08 <psygnisfive> well i dont want to watch it
00:35:10 -!- moozilla has quit ("- nbs-irc 2.37 - www.nbs-irc.net -").
00:35:13 <oklopol> that's actually from a vid from the 2girls1cup page
00:35:17 <psygnisfive> the link has a time-ordered scene breakdown
00:35:21 <tusho> :D
00:35:30 <tusho> oklopol: no it's not
00:35:33 <tusho> it predates 2g1c
00:35:34 <oklopol> seen the original too, it's like an hour long film
00:35:44 <oklopol> well yeah
00:35:47 <oklopol> but it's linked on the page
00:36:05 <oklopol> there were 3 short vids at some point
00:36:18 <tusho> ah
00:36:30 <tusho> ah
00:36:31 <tusho> http://www.swapavi.com/swap.avi
00:36:33 <tusho> non-torrent version
00:36:38 <tusho> hmm
00:36:39 <tusho> only 1mb
00:36:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit ("Konversation terminated!").
00:36:41 <tusho> can't be the full thing
00:36:45 <pikhq> I refuse to watch it.
00:36:50 <psygnisfive> so im guessing the porn-on-request place is real
00:36:54 <psygnisfive> thats actually cool.
00:37:08 <tusho> pikhq: not the full thing anyway, I imagine
00:37:10 <dogface> I guess if we had no bones, we wouldn't be as able to breathe, but computers tend to use more energy than we do, meaning they have to eliminate more heat, plus their circulatory systems don't reach the surface.
00:37:13 <tusho> the full thing is like 100mb
00:37:15 <dogface> What is scat, by the way?
00:37:15 <tusho> (or was it 500, whatever)
00:37:20 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Disturbing, but cool.
00:37:25 <pikhq> dogface: Porn involving shit.
00:37:32 <tusho> I was about to reply
00:37:36 <tusho> but pikhq said it best
00:37:36 <dogface> Oh.
00:37:55 -!- oerjan has quit ("Just about had enough").
00:38:01 <oklopol> tusho: i only got like the first 5 seconds.
00:38:02 <oklopol> :)
00:38:21 <psygnisfive> i want to have a porn company some day
00:38:26 -!- moozilla has joined.
00:38:27 * tusho imagines swap.avi being reviewed in serious, somber film-critic style
00:38:31 <tusho> *SWAP.avi
00:39:21 <dogface> Make porn based on anagrams of "dagflox".
00:39:28 <oklopol> i've seen the opening, but i think mfx has used it on many films
00:39:34 <oklopol> so hard to say what that is
00:39:51 <oklopol> (the beginning of linked swap.avi)
00:40:00 <psygnisfive> tusho: we should do it.
00:40:06 <psygnisfive> we should make a review podcast like that.
00:40:13 <tusho> psygnisfive: no, it'd have to be a video review
00:40:15 <tusho> for the formal attire
00:40:16 <psygnisfive> or it could be one episode of our podcast
00:40:25 <psygnisfive> heres how i envision it
00:40:26 <oklopol> dogface: gold fax
00:40:28 <tusho> also, I do not sound like a film critic
00:40:31 <tusho> and I look like a film critic even less
00:40:32 <tusho> :P
00:40:35 <psygnisfive> it cant be a podcast where you see the video itself
00:40:37 <oklopol> shouldn't be hard to turn into porn
00:40:45 <psygnisfive> it has to be something where you cant tell what we're reviewing
00:40:51 <psygnisfive> until well into it
00:40:52 <psygnisfive> like
00:40:52 <dogface> oklopol: you can't make porn without dog flax.
00:41:01 <psygnisfive> you listen for 15 minutes and it could be a review of _anything_
00:41:01 <tusho> psygnisfive: aww, it'd prefer it to be really damn obvious
00:41:04 <oklopol> what's flax?
00:41:08 <tusho> like, it starts with the start of the porn
00:41:10 <psygnisfive> but then it gets progressively more.. fucked up sounding
00:41:17 <tusho> then moves out so that you can see the screen and the reviewer
00:41:25 <tusho> and he gives a somber, serious, in-depth, critical analysis of it
00:41:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | if you consider _really_ severe dyslexia retarded... (so bad that you cannot even say if your spell checker's suggestions are correct).
00:41:37 <oklopol> there was that one essay on 2girls1cup
00:41:40 <tusho> and then it cuts to after the film
00:41:44 <tusho> and he's sitting
00:41:46 <tusho> and gives his final thoughts
00:41:47 <oklopol> teacher's comments were priceless
00:41:49 <tusho> and then it's over
00:41:56 <tusho> optbot!
00:41:57 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | they're all kept with the distribution to avoid line number clashes.
00:41:59 <tusho> optbot!
00:41:59 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | parse_ski. unless that has nothing to do with SKI calculus.
00:42:00 <tusho> optbot!
00:42:01 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 22..
00:42:38 <oklopol> i recognize two of those 4
00:42:51 <oklopol> (i think)
00:45:34 <tusho> "And we see here the stylistic device very much associated with the minimalistic work of Johnson - notice the bare, sparse feel yet fluidity of the movement and its inherent interlinking with the intensely minimalistic - some would even claim missing - musical score." - a friend after hearing of this "somber, serious, film critic-style review of porn" idea
00:46:37 <oklopol> yeah johnson has a tiny cock
00:46:46 <oklopol> i think i'll work on fugue now
00:47:17 <psygnisfive> tusho: :D
00:50:36 <psygnisfive> brb faggots
00:53:04 <tusho> is that 'be right back because of faggots'
00:53:06 <tusho> or 'faggots: brb'
00:54:23 <tusho> bye for today
00:55:04 <psygnisfive> the latter
00:55:08 <psygnisfive> the former would be better
00:55:28 -!- tusho has quit ("Leaving...").
00:56:55 <psygnisfive> oklopol
00:56:55 <psygnisfive> pms
01:03:40 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
01:03:42 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
01:03:43 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
01:03:45 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
01:10:48 <oklopol> :o
01:18:58 <fizzie> That seems curiously urgent.
01:19:19 <psygnisfive> it was
01:19:24 <oklopol> yeah he wanted my babies
01:19:27 <psygnisfive> i needed somewhere to cum
01:19:42 <psygnisfive> see his mouth, ready for my spunk?
01:19:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
01:21:26 <oklopol> 'be right back because of faggots' can mean either "i leave, but i'll return later cuz i like ya faggots", or "i leave for a while, since there are hot faggies here"
01:22:18 <oklopol> really the latter only because be right back is only the expanding of brb, otherwise just the latter
01:22:20 <oklopol> ...
01:22:23 <oklopol> former
01:22:31 <oklopol> ...
01:22:43 <oklopol> s/latter latter/former/!
01:25:11 <psygnisfive> latter ladder
01:25:20 <fizzie> Maybe s/latter/former/g to replace all instances.
01:26:01 <fizzie> And I guess more often "brb foo" is "will be right back; going away because of foo".
01:27:34 <psygnisfive> no i think "brb, foo" has that interpretation more so
01:27:40 <psygnisfive> "brb foo" is more vocative on foo
01:27:42 <psygnisfive> "brb guys"
01:27:48 <oklopol> i disagree
01:27:57 <fizzie> Dunno, I think I've seen stuff like "brb food".
01:28:03 <oklopol> agree with fizzie
01:28:03 <psygnisfive> oh ofcourse
01:28:07 <psygnisfive> and i use that
01:28:19 <psygnisfive> it could depend on what foo is
01:28:27 <fizzie> Unless you're thinking of other people on channel as food, I'm not ruling that out.
01:28:50 <oklopol> my point was exactly that once you expand it, you can interpret it as either
01:28:53 <psygnisfive> however now we're talking about the selectional requirements of "brb"
01:28:57 <psygnisfive> which gets into theoretical syntax
01:29:01 <psygnisfive> and i need oklopol pure
01:29:03 <psygnisfive> so stop :P
01:29:20 <oklopol> i've already seen one of your crazy syntax trees!
01:29:25 <psygnisfive> ;)
01:29:26 <psygnisfive> which one?
01:29:31 <psygnisfive> did i show you the Generative Semantics one?
01:29:38 <oklopol> it was about that...
01:29:39 <oklopol> hmm
01:29:42 <fizzie> I somehow read that as "and i need oklopol porn". I think it's because I just reviewed what you were talking about while I slept for a bit there.
01:29:52 <psygnisfive> i need oklopol porn too, actually
01:30:07 <psygnisfive> oklopol
01:30:09 <psygnisfive> give me you porn
01:30:19 <oklopol> psygnisfive: you were arguing about english grammar
01:30:26 <oklopol> don't remember the exact context
01:30:37 <oklopol> you addressed me in pm later about some comment of mine
01:30:42 <psygnisfive> can i show you something from some research done in the late 60s early 70s?
01:31:00 <oklopol> (i showed an error in your thinking, and you showed me how i sucked ass like there's no tomorrow)
01:31:11 <oklopol> (and i was like :<)
01:31:16 <oklopol> (well no really i don't remember.)
01:31:19 <psygnisfive> oh but you DO suck ass
01:31:21 <psygnisfive> among other things
01:31:22 <psygnisfive> =3
01:31:28 <psygnisfive> back then, there were some students of chomsky's that broke away from mainstream syntax of the time to form their own school of thought on syntax
01:31:31 <oklopol> *not
01:32:01 <psygnisfive> namely, they wanted to account for all cases of synonymy by supposing certain things
01:32:08 <psygnisfive> the result of which was that simple
01:32:09 <psygnisfive> SIMPLE
01:32:16 <psygnisfive> sentences like "Floyd broke the vase"
01:32:23 <psygnisfive> end up having amazingly complex structures
01:32:37 <psygnisfive> infact, that sentence, by their theories, has 8, EIGHT, subsentences.
01:32:44 <oklopol> :D
01:32:46 <oklopol> awesome
01:33:02 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/lolgs.png
01:33:11 <psygnisfive> Floyd broke the glass*
01:33:24 <psygnisfive> but the structure would be the same none the less.
01:33:39 <oklopol> ofc
01:33:54 <fizzie> "it that it that it that Floyd DO it that Floyd CAUSE it that it that it that the glass broken BE INCHOATIVE HAPPEN PAST TO YOU". Hehe.
01:33:54 <psygnisfive> suffice it to say, generative semantics didnt last long and wasn't ever taken seriously
01:34:20 <fizzie> Oh, I missed the "I DECLARE" part at the beginning somehow.
01:34:24 <psygnisfive> yes
01:34:42 <psygnisfive> i hope this doesnt spoil you, oklopol.
01:34:42 <psygnisfive> :P
01:35:13 <oklopol> inchoative?
01:35:26 <oklopol> I THUS DECLARE
01:35:38 <psygnisfive> brb guys, i have to go shopping
01:35:52 <psygnisfive> oklopol, we'll go over the syntax stuff when i get back
01:35:54 <psygnisfive> ::kiss::
01:35:56 <oklopol> :o
01:36:03 <oklopol> err it's like half past 4
01:36:06 <psygnisfive> oh
01:36:08 <psygnisfive> thats right
01:36:10 <psygnisfive> you're in finland
01:36:12 <oklopol> whole finland is asleep.
01:36:16 <psygnisfive> well ill talk to you tomorrow baout it then
01:36:17 <oklopol> except for me and fizzie
01:36:23 <psygnisfive> see ya
01:36:27 <oklopol> yarr i'm free tomorrow
01:36:41 <fizzie> "Get a room, guys."
01:37:00 <oklopol> :)
01:37:16 <psygnisfive> ::kisses fizzie:: ;O
01:37:18 <psygnisfive> bye
01:37:32 <oklopol> bye
01:37:48 <fizzie> For tusho's log-reading purposes: I think the gnome-vfs access might well be from Epiphany, that gnome web browser. I think for consistency it uses the gnome-vfs functions for all URLs.
01:38:02 <oklopol> hmm
01:38:07 <oklopol> perhaps i should leave him a message too
01:38:17 <oklopol> tusho: hi i think i'll drink some water now
01:38:21 <oklopol> ->
01:40:05 -!- fizzie has quit ("switching hostname back").
01:40:12 -!- fizzie has joined.
01:40:39 <fizzie> (fungot doesn't like my commands if they do not come with this particular nick!user@host prefix.)
01:42:48 <oklopol> does it die given an infloop?
01:43:00 <fizzie> It shouln't, if you mean the ^bf command.
01:43:02 <fizzie> ^bf +[]
01:43:04 <fungot>  ...out of time!
01:43:30 <fizzie> It prints that and stops after executing 10k bf instructions.
01:43:37 <oklopol> :|
01:43:57 <oklopol> well it printed that, and i asked kingofkarlsruhe if he printed that, or it was a timeout
01:44:06 <oklopol> and he said it was him
01:44:20 <oklopol> lier! i prolly just misunderstood, but anyway
01:44:23 <oklopol> *liar
01:44:25 <oklopol> okokokor
01:44:46 <fizzie> Well, it could've been him.
01:45:14 <oklopol> no
01:45:16 <oklopol> it couldn't
01:45:30 <fizzie> ^bf +++++++++++[>++++>+++>++++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>>-.<++...>>>+.++++++.-.<<.>+.---------.<.>>.<+++.++++.--------.<.<------.>>>-.<----.>++++++.------.<<.>------------------------.<<+.>+.
01:45:30 <fungot>  ...out of time (says I)!
01:45:58 <oklopol> see? it adds some random shit in the end
01:46:06 <oklopol> "(says I)!"
01:46:31 <oklopol> must've been the timeout
01:47:47 <fizzie> Must go to do the sleeping thing, there's a semi-early train trip tomorrow. (Or at least prepare-to-go-to-sleep thing, then I'll come back to do a minor alteration to fungot.)
01:48:31 <oklopol> what's that alteration?
01:51:19 -!- Figs has joined.
01:51:22 <Figs> hello
01:51:34 <pikhq> We can has bot?
01:51:43 <pikhq> ^bf +[+.]
01:51:43 <fungot> ............................. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~��������������������������������������������������������������������������������� ...
01:51:47 <pikhq> :D
01:52:22 <Figs> ^bf >++++++++++[<++++>-]<.
01:52:22 <fungot> (
01:52:35 <Figs> ^bf >++++++++++[<++++>-]<.+.+.
01:52:36 <fungot> ()*
01:52:45 <Figs> cool
01:52:54 <pikhq> Sveet.
01:53:17 <Figs> did you see my evil invention yesterday?
01:53:19 <Figs> http://rafb.net/p/t2kLGX37.html
01:53:24 <pikhq> I get the feeling *someone* has created an Egobot replacement. :D
01:53:32 <Figs> Well, it's the *start* of an evil invention, at least...
01:53:40 <Figs> not sure what to do with it next
01:54:58 <fizzie> pikhq; If you hadn't noticed, fungot is written in Funge-98 with the SOCK fingerprint, so it's implementation-wise suitable for this channel too.
01:55:26 <pikhq> That's *brilliant*.
01:55:30 <pikhq> Just *brilliant*.
01:55:47 <pikhq> I mean, really: I love you.
01:56:06 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
01:56:45 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt has them sources, although it lacks the separate "loader" part, and is not the completely latest version.
02:03:05 -!- fungot has quit ("relocated ^reload so that it handles changes in the IRC code").
02:03:18 -!- fungot has joined.
02:04:20 <fizzie> Now to check if I broke it.
02:04:22 <fizzie> ^bf +[]
02:04:24 <fungot>  ...out of time!
02:04:27 <fizzie> ^reload
02:04:31 <pikhq> ^bf +++++++++.
02:04:39 <fizzie> Heh, I did, in fact, break it.
02:04:52 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:05:14 <fizzie> That was a bit less impressive than I was hoping for. Next time I'll test first and deploy later.
02:06:14 <oklopol> Figs: i don't get it
02:06:25 <fizzie> Right, there's a 0 missing.
02:06:25 <Figs> Hmm? :)
02:06:31 <oklopol> i mean
02:06:46 <oklopol> are you just summing 0..n until it's more than 100?
02:07:05 <Figs> z[n] is a variable length array
02:07:33 <Figs> You should get 0, 1 1, 2 2 2, 3 3 3 3, 4 4 4 4 4, ...
02:07:35 <Figs> in the array
02:07:36 <Figs> IIRC
02:07:38 <oklopol> yeah, and you fill it, including the element after the last element, with n
02:07:39 <oklopol> right
02:07:47 <oklopol> int k = n;
02:07:47 <oklopol> do
02:07:47 <oklopol> z[k]=n-1;
02:07:53 <oklopol> why not k = n-1
02:08:01 <oklopol> isn't that crashy
02:08:12 <Figs> I wrote it at like 1 am or whatever :P
02:08:35 <Figs> -Wall -pedantic didn't catch it, and I didn't notice ;P
02:08:54 <oklopol> oh
02:09:19 <oklopol> it was a blinking red zone in my eyes
02:09:58 <oklopol> but right for some reason i read z[k]=n-1; as z[k]=n..;
02:09:59 <oklopol> *n--
02:10:04 <oklopol> but
02:10:13 <oklopol> that still wouldn't work like i described
02:11:58 <Figs> I wrote it at like 1 am, so *shrug*; the big idea was to use a label called While that takes a parameter that's ignored, a disguised free {} block within main, and a resized variable length array
02:12:06 -!- fungot has joined.
02:12:10 <fizzie> ^bf +[]
02:12:12 <fungot>  ...out of time!
02:12:14 <fizzie> ^reload
02:12:15 <fizzie> ^bf +[]
02:12:18 <fungot>  ...out of FOOD!
02:12:20 <fizzie> Yay.
02:12:21 <Figs> O_o
02:12:34 <Figs> ^bf +[<]
02:12:44 <Figs> ^reload
02:12:49 <Figs> ^bf +[<]
02:12:59 <pikhq> Borken.
02:13:05 <fizzie> I think that just generated no output. And ^reload is not accepted from anyone else than me. Makes sense, since only I can change the code.
02:13:09 <fizzie> ^bf +[]
02:13:11 <fungot>  ...out of FOOD!
02:13:13 <fizzie> ^reload
02:13:14 <fizzie> ^bf +[]
02:13:16 <fungot>  ...out of time!
02:13:25 <Figs> ^bf +[]
02:13:28 <fungot>  ...out of time!
02:13:35 <pikhq> ^bf +[>]
02:13:39 <fizzie> The +[<] loop stops after one iteration, since the next cell is zero.
02:13:46 <fizzie> ^bf +[>+]
02:13:48 <fungot>  ...out of time!
02:13:50 <Figs> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.]
02:13:51 <fungot> ��������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������� ...
02:14:01 <Figs> :D
02:14:30 <pikhq> ^bf +[<+]
02:14:30 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>++++++++++[.]
02:14:31 <fungot>  ...out of time!
02:14:31 <fungot> nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn ...
02:14:42 <fizzie> There's an output length limit of 15*15 characters.
02:14:50 <pikhq> +bf +[++.]
02:15:06 <oklopol> fizzie: how come you program befunge better than most people code mainstream languages?
02:15:28 <Figs> ^bf >++++++++++++++++++++[<++++++++++++++++++++>-].
02:15:29 <fungot> .
02:15:35 <pikhq> Because most people code mainstream languages suckily.
02:15:36 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]+++++++++++++>++++++++++[.<.---.+++>]
02:15:37 <fungot> n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n..n.. ...
02:15:44 <Figs> ^bf
02:16:13 <oklopol> fizzie: what does 15*15 mean?
02:16:21 <fizzie> Oh, and characters [0,30] or so are filtered to ., otherwise tusho would just use it to output "\r\nJOIN #ubuntu\r\nPRIVMSG #ubuntu :arrr thar any gays here?" again.
02:16:24 <oklopol> if you convert 13 and 10 to .
02:16:32 <oklopol> :)
02:17:04 <pikhq> fizzie: Oh, so you actually *recall* our insanity. :D
02:17:20 <oklopol> even i recall that, it was like yesterday
02:17:59 <Figs> ^bf ----------.
02:17:59 <fungot> �
02:18:04 <fizzie> I didn't want to bother with it interpreting newlines and writing the "PRIVMSG #chan :" prefix multiple times. Although I guess I could have.
02:18:14 <pikhq> oklopol: I wasn't on then.
02:18:24 <pikhq> Also, we've done the same to Egobot in the distant past.
02:18:35 <fizzie> Cells are one byte wide and wrap-around; the array is also only 1000 cells wide.
02:18:37 <pikhq> I think it was ehird/tusho that started it, actually.
02:18:53 <oklopol> pikhq: it's been done to every bot, of course :)
02:18:56 <Figs> ^bf +[+>].
02:18:57 <fungot> .
02:19:03 <oklopol> but that gay ubuntu thing was a few days ago
02:19:07 <pikhq> oklopol: Every bot with customisable output, of course.
02:19:43 <Figs> ^bf +[+>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>]
02:19:43 <oklopol> fizzie: so... what does "15*15" mean? :D
02:19:45 <fungot> fungot had a free-for-all ^raw for an hour or so, but... now it's nick!user@host-limited to me.
02:19:54 <oklopol> Figs: you fail at bf
02:20:14 <Figs> I'm not trying to do anything useful :P
02:20:29 <oklopol> well that just incs a cell twice and ends
02:20:34 <Figs> :D
02:20:40 <oklopol> it definitely looks like you tried to make an infloop :D
02:20:48 <oklopol> but guess you fooled me :P
02:20:56 <oklopol> okay, i'll try sleeping again.asfpok ->
02:21:00 <fizzie> oklopol; 225, I think. "ff*" was the largest number I could get with three characters, although I guess I could have used a funge-space cell and something "99g"-like.
02:21:05 <Figs> ^bf +[>+]
02:21:07 <Figs> you mean? :P
02:21:08 <fungot>  ...out of time!
02:21:50 <Figs> ^bf I'm a little teapot, short and stout!
02:21:56 <fizzie> It's there around row 99: ff*`#^_
02:22:15 <fizzie> ^bf +[,.]!it does input like this
02:22:15 <fungot> it does input like this.
02:22:49 <Figs> ^bf +[,.]!\r\n:D
02:22:49 <fungot> \r\n:D.
02:24:37 <Figs> ^bf >[,>]<[.<]!olleH
02:24:46 <Figs> duh
02:24:54 <Figs> maybe I do suck at BF today :P
02:25:03 <Figs> ^bf >+[,>]<[.<]!olleH
02:25:03 <fungot> o
02:26:14 <Figs> ^bf +[-.+]
02:26:15 <fungot> ............................................................................................................................................................................................................... ...
02:27:58 <fizzie> ^bf >+[>,]<[.<]!olleH
02:27:58 <fungot> Hello.
02:28:16 <fizzie> (The dot is that '1' cell there, didn't bother to fix it.)
02:29:24 <Figs> O_o
02:29:40 <Figs> I really am out of it today.
02:29:59 <Figs> haha, wtf was I thinking ,> :|
02:39:18 <fizzie> ^reload
02:40:21 <fizzie> (Did not change much, just made ^bf replies work right if done in privmsg to the bot. It used to reply to the privmsg target, since it worked on channels. Now if the target doesn't begin with #, it instead uses the 'nick' from the nick!user@host prefix.)
02:43:01 <fizzie> That was really simple, just a
02:43:01 <fizzie>    >06g'#-!#v_ 04g!#^_ 1>:4g:!#v_'!-#v_v
02:43:04 <fizzie>    v        <        P60 G41 $$<0 p4\ 0<
02:43:07 <fizzie>                         ^          +1<
02:43:20 <fizzie> (Although for some reason the copy-paste had lots of spaces there.)
02:43:29 <fizzie> Easier to write than copy-paste correctly.
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02:50:05 <Figs> hey oklopol, did you ever get around to playing my song...?
02:52:11 <fizzie> Hah, I broke ^reload with that change, since it 0s the ! in the prefix. The stupefity.
03:02:29 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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03:02:56 <fizzie> 05am is a good time to go to sleep. ->
03:03:03 <Figs> :P
03:07:44 <dogface> I wonder how long it took me to realize that sharks are fish.
03:08:14 <Figs> I'm gonna head off
03:08:15 <Figs> cyaz
03:08:16 -!- Figs has left (?).
03:11:52 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
03:45:19 <psygnisfive> http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.php?p=631847#631847
03:54:46 <psygnisfive> read it bitches
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06:41:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | silly :D.
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07:58:20 <asiekierka> { }
07:58:21 <asiekierka>  |
07:58:22 <asiekierka> _|_
07:58:28 <asiekierka> light the space
07:58:31 <asiekierka> the fungespace
07:58:34 <asiekierka> the   webspace
07:58:37 <asiekierka> the  diskspace
07:58:53 <asiekierka> the fat16space
07:58:59 <asiekierka> the boringpace
07:59:23 <asiekierka> the  stupidace
07:59:30 <asiekierka> the   coolyace
07:59:45 <asiekierka> the  windowsce
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08:00:08 <asiekierka> the     endof
08:00:12 <asiekierka> the     song.
08:38:51 <asiekierka> ...
08:43:40 <asiekierka> I'm gonna remove all my old, already spammed and linked a lot forums, maybe that'll make 500's a little rarer.
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09:35:37 <psygnisfive> hey oklofok
09:35:39 <psygnisfive> <3you
09:36:53 <oklofok> and computers whether things will al end as they should
09:37:07 <oklofok> computers?
09:37:12 <oklofok> computes?
09:37:29 <oklofok> al? names should be capitalized!
09:38:02 <oklofok> Well, the truth is that P cannot possibly be,
09:38:02 <oklofok> because if you wrote it and gave it to me,
09:38:02 <oklofok> I could use it to set up a logical bind
09:38:02 <oklofok> that would shatter your reason and scramble your mind.
09:38:04 <oklofok> this is nice
09:43:21 <oklofok> as a summary, computers process information faster than humans... and that's all, because they don't think...
10:03:21 <oklofok> i don't really get that wanking around humans being fundamentally better than computers @ solving impossible problems, religious people should not comment on mathematical issues
10:10:45 <psygnisfive> oklofok
10:10:48 <psygnisfive> have you gone mad?
10:11:10 <psygnisfive> or have you stayed the same?
10:11:10 <psygnisfive> :o
10:11:13 <psygnisfive> ::kiss::
10:11:15 <psygnisfive> i have to sleep
10:11:18 <psygnisfive> night crazyboy
10:11:20 <psygnisfive> <3
10:24:30 <oklofok> night
10:24:35 <oklofok> and no, i'm not madder than usually
10:31:25 <AnMaster> <tusho> http://tentaclerapture.com/lulz/photo2.jpg
10:31:25 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> you still look like a girl but ok.
10:31:28 <AnMaster> oh yes you do
10:32:26 <AnMaster> I guess I blame the long hair
10:32:41 <AnMaster> your face could be either gender
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11:02:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: FSPACEBOUNDS: is the max relative to the min, like in y?
11:03:39 * AnMaster checks
11:03:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: not said in the PDF...
11:04:35 <AnMaster> well seems reasonable
11:04:38 <AnMaster> I will make it say that
11:04:52 <Deewiant> IMHO it makes more sense for it to be absolute
11:04:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wait a sec
11:04:59 <AnMaster> ok
11:05:24 <Deewiant> I guess the reason it's relative in funge is that it's tricky to do the subtractions with only the stack, if you need relative (for i for instance)
11:05:44 <Deewiant> but here we're not assuming that the frontend is written in funge...
11:07:06 <AnMaster> indeed
11:07:11 <AnMaster> but it could be, using SOCK
11:07:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'll make it absolute
11:08:21 <AnMaster> bbiab
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11:15:32 <asiekierka> Yay
11:15:43 <asiekierka> I have an unfinished implementation of bfIRC
11:15:49 <asiekierka> which doesn't help me anything :(
11:15:53 <asiekierka> I must make it myself seems.
11:27:43 <oklofok> yes, you must
11:27:48 <oklofok> what's bfirc?
11:27:54 <asiekierka> No wait, he finished it
11:28:04 <asiekierka> BFirc is my little modification of BF to add irc functionalities
11:28:14 <asiekierka> my friend, darktemplar, implemented it
11:28:22 <oklofok> okay, and how are you going to add them?
11:28:38 <asiekierka> basically, , is changed and output data is saved to a buffer, and a new command is there
11:28:49 <asiekierka> _ - output the buffer data to IRC
11:29:24 <oklofok> i would skip the buffer; can you take input from keyboard anymore?
11:29:29 <oklofok> or is it just for bots?
11:29:33 <asiekierka> Just for bots.
11:29:41 <asiekierka> It's a lang just for making IRCbots.
11:29:50 <asiekierka> I basically made it to see if i can beat fungot and make an IRCbot in BF.
11:30:00 <oklofok> well you do know you don't actually have to change the language at all, you can just pipe its IO to irc?
11:30:06 <asiekierka> I know
11:30:07 <oklofok> right right.
11:30:09 <asiekierka> But that's crap
11:30:10 <asiekierka> like:
11:30:10 <asiekierka> H
11:30:11 <asiekierka> e
11:30:11 <asiekierka> l
11:30:11 <asiekierka> l
11:30:12 <asiekierka> o
11:30:16 <asiekierka> W
11:30:17 <oklofok> err
11:30:18 <asiekierka> o
11:30:20 <asiekierka> r
11:30:22 <asiekierka> l
11:30:24 <asiekierka> d
11:30:26 <asiekierka> !
11:30:28 <asiekierka> Rather than Hello World!
11:30:33 <oklofok> right, you don't know anything about irc
11:30:37 <oklofok> forgot that
11:30:53 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol.
11:31:31 <oklopol> the irc spec is quite long, and you will never be able to read it; i suggest googling a "irc bot python", and reading
11:31:42 <oklopol> *-a
11:32:04 <asiekierka> http://zuoniel.republika.pl/ircfuck.py
11:32:09 <oklopol> ah right
11:32:12 <asiekierka> this is that BFirc interpreter.
11:32:18 <asiekierka> takes 2 params
11:32:23 <asiekierka> first is the filename
11:32:32 <oklopol> well that won't help you
11:32:37 <asiekierka> and the second is the username to which to output
11:32:50 <asiekierka> he doesn't know how to do a channel-wide yet. :P
11:33:08 <oklopol> ah okay, that uses some external module
11:33:12 <asiekierka> I'm making my own anyway
11:33:14 <oklopol> sorry, it probably will help you
11:33:16 <asiekierka> It's irclib. It uses irclib.
11:33:20 <oklopol> yarrr
11:33:21 <asiekierka> It wouldn't actually
11:33:27 <asiekierka> The implementation isn't channel-wide
11:33:27 <asiekierka> :P
11:33:36 <oklopol> i don't know what that means
11:33:40 <asiekierka> As in
11:33:46 <asiekierka> it outputs/interfaces with a single user
11:33:49 <asiekierka> not with the channet
11:33:51 <asiekierka> channel*
11:34:12 <oklopol> well i can't help with irclib, but for raw irc connections that's a simple substitution of the channel name for the recipient
11:34:31 <oklopol> to send a message to esoteric, you just write PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is my fun message.
11:34:37 <oklopol> and end with \r\n
11:35:18 <oklopol> who is makebot?
11:35:25 <oklopol> ah
11:35:28 <oklopol> disconnected right away
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11:36:12 <oklopol> congrats i got helloworlded by your botter
11:36:19 <dark_templar> :>
11:36:41 <asiekierka> :)
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11:52:36 <asiekierka> Omg
11:52:44 <asiekierka> I found a newbie's IRC connection library
11:53:50 <dark_templar> prog lang?
11:54:18 <asiekierka> nope, still using Delphi
11:54:22 <asiekierka> but i found out Vortex&ICS
11:54:48 <asiekierka> Vortex needs ICS. Vortex is an IRC connection library that's way too easy to use for it to be real.
11:55:59 <asiekierka> 2 MB. I must wait for 10 mins for it to d/l
11:56:04 <asiekierka> or 7 mins.
11:56:34 <asiekierka> 10%
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11:56:53 <dark_templar> Teh botter spammed ya all!
11:56:58 <asiekierka> What?
11:57:00 <asiekierka> You finished it?
11:57:03 <asiekierka> Yay.
11:57:06 <asiekierka> Can i test it?
11:57:09 <dark_templar> sure
11:57:14 <asiekierka> ok
11:57:17 <asiekierka> Give the link for us all
11:57:19 <asiekierka> So we all can start
11:57:47 <dark_templar> grab it at http://zuoniel.republika.pl/ircfuck.py
11:57:54 <dark_templar> requires irclib, though
11:57:56 <asiekierka> Is it the channel-wide version?
11:57:59 <dark_templar> yup.
11:58:25 <dark_templar> But I still don't know how you wanna faciliate input
11:58:45 <asiekierka> , will take the latest message from the channel
11:58:49 <asiekierka> And output it
11:58:55 <asiekierka> starting from the current cell
11:58:58 <asiekierka> as a null-termed string
11:59:12 <dark_templar> so I should append all messages put on the chat to the input buffer?
11:59:15 <dark_templar> sounds easy now
11:59:37 <asiekierka> nope
11:59:39 <asiekierka> just the last one
11:59:44 <asiekierka> So if i say "poop", you save it
11:59:47 <dark_templar> what is 'the last one'?
11:59:52 <asiekierka> if i say "road", you overwrite poop with road
11:59:55 <dark_templar> it's totally asynchronous
12:00:02 <asiekierka> if i say "lowl", you overwrite road with lowl
12:00:03 <asiekierka> if you can
12:00:03 <dark_templar> what's more, it has only 1 thread
12:00:13 <asiekierka> Then
12:00:13 <dark_templar> but input buffer doesn't work like that
12:00:16 <asiekierka> Oh
12:00:19 <asiekierka> So how does it
12:00:25 <dark_templar> unless you want me to swap the half-processed input buffer with new one
12:00:34 <dark_templar> it grabs a character from input stream when requested
12:00:58 <dark_templar> Though guys watch out; quite a lot of Polish comments there
12:01:01 <asiekierka> I thought it'll copy the whole message from the input stream
12:01:03 <asiekierka> as in
12:01:05 <asiekierka> I'm at cell 2
12:01:14 <asiekierka> and i take the latest input msg (let's say poop
12:01:19 <asiekierka> 012345
12:01:21 <asiekierka>   poop
12:01:28 <asiekierka> and at the end, null is saved
12:01:31 <asiekierka> So it should look like
12:01:53 <asiekierka> 0: 1: 2:p 3:o 4:o 5:p 6:(null)
12:02:04 <asiekierka> As i had the pointer at cell 2
12:04:24 <asiekierka> Also, no wait
12:04:24 <asiekierka> Your "grab a single char" method
12:04:24 <asiekierka> works better
12:04:24 <asiekierka> actually
12:04:25 <asiekierka> But there should be a method
12:04:25 <asiekierka> to proceed to the next char.
12:04:25 <dark_templar> besides, what does (null) evaluate to? Sounds quite Lisp-ish.
12:04:25 <asiekierka> (null)=0
12:04:25 <asiekierka> as in, a value 0
12:04:25 <asiekierka> not the char 0
12:04:25 <dark_templar> as in ascii #0. ok.
12:04:25 <asiekierka> Wait
12:04:25 <asiekierka> you can use ASCII chars <32 righ
12:04:25 <asiekierka> t
12:04:25 <dark_templar> at your own risk.
12:04:25 <asiekierka> They can't be used in IRC anyway
12:04:25 <dark_templar> They can
12:04:25 <dark_templar> but need to be quoted
12:04:25 <dark_templar> I didn't work out the quoting
12:04:25 <asiekierka> But, i'd recommend this way
12:04:36 <asiekierka> What about
12:04:41 <asiekierka> instead of using _
12:04:45 <asiekierka> If i send 0 with .
12:04:50 <asiekierka> it replaces the effect of _?
12:04:58 <dark_templar> well, you could
12:05:03 <dark_templar> but that would break Brainfuck
12:05:12 <asiekierka> Why?
12:05:23 <asiekierka> You don't output 0 anyway.
12:05:31 <dark_templar> as you wish
12:05:33 <asiekierka> or not
12:05:36 <asiekierka> let's keep it as it is
12:05:44 <asiekierka> Even if this means not staying in the 8-command limit
12:05:50 <dark_templar> well
12:05:59 <dark_templar> you could employ the line-break #10 for that instead of #0
12:06:11 <asiekierka> Yeah
12:06:13 <asiekierka> That'd be better, actually
12:06:18 <asiekierka> As many programs USE a line-break
12:06:40 <asiekierka> for example, all the BF games :P
12:06:40 <asiekierka> also
12:06:40 <asiekierka> block #13 from outputting
12:06:49 <asiekierka> Why? It'll fix the programs using #13#10
12:07:01 <asiekierka> and will still allow programs using #10 to work
12:07:25 -!- makebot has joined.
12:07:29 <dark_templar> :<
12:07:46 -!- makebot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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12:08:31 <asiekierka> Ok, IRClib should be installed now
12:08:42 <dark_templar> Oh. Found the mistake. It grabs both 10 and 13 and newline
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12:09:05 <asiekierka> as newline, you mean
12:09:25 <asiekierka> It should accept 10 and block 13.
12:09:58 <asiekierka> Actually, this method should now make all the BF programs compatible with BFirc.
12:10:00 <dark_templar> Oooh.
12:10:01 <asiekierka> And that's a yay
12:10:10 <dark_templar> So 'fuck anything that's <32 and 10 as newline' ?
12:10:11 <asiekierka> BFirc is BF compatible
12:10:20 <asiekierka> Possibly.
12:10:21 <asiekierka> i mean
12:10:29 <dark_templar> I could display the unprintables as /x<numer> if you wish
12:10:36 <dark_templar> Pythonish.
12:10:52 <asiekierka> Nope. You could make it a parameter in source code if you want so much though.
12:10:55 <asiekierka> But the default way is:
12:11:14 <asiekierka> Ignore everything that's <32 (IRC disallows it) except 10, which is a newline, as in, output the buffer on IRC and go ahead with execution.
12:11:21 <asiekierka> oh
12:11:31 <asiekierka> and clean the buffer before continuing execution
12:11:56 <asiekierka> That's all
12:12:25 <dark_templar> what does 'continiue exection' mean?
12:12:29 <asiekierka> As in
12:12:33 <asiekierka> process the next commands
12:12:34 <dark_templar> it's aeffectively a bot scripted in BF
12:12:45 <asiekierka> yeah
12:13:02 <asiekierka> Now i'm going to force-feed a BF interpreter to it. xD.
12:13:02 <dark_templar> sure, #10 cleans the buffer
12:13:10 <dark_templar> It'd be nonsense NOT to clean it.
12:13:29 <dark_templar> just write a suitable BF program to use a chatbot and invent some way input'd work
12:13:33 <asiekierka> Also, one question. does "," wait for a character if it doesn't get one?
12:14:15 <dark_templar> right now, ',' is ignored.
12:14:20 <asiekierka> Oh. :(
12:14:24 <dark_templar> Yeah, it'd wait if implemented.
12:14:35 <asiekierka> ',' should just output the latest char from the input buffer.
12:14:37 <dark_templar> you wanna some @ commands that checks the buffer?
12:14:44 <dark_templar> yeah, it'd do so.
12:14:49 <asiekierka> Nope... I think not.
12:14:54 <asiekierka> Just finish ',' and it's done.
12:15:06 <asiekierka> Possibly.
12:15:09 <asiekierka> Will need to test it first.
12:15:23 <asiekierka> I think there's one more thing you should add, in source code.
12:15:38 <asiekierka> It should only copy msg's starting with a specific character
12:15:41 <asiekierka> like it wouldn't copy
12:15:43 <asiekierka> i am lol
12:15:45 <asiekierka> but it will copy
12:15:48 <asiekierka> `bf
12:15:51 <asiekierka> if ` is set as that character
12:15:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: index for SSET and SGET, is 0 the top or the bottom?
12:15:57 <asiekierka> It wouldn't copy ` then i think.
12:16:00 <asiekierka> That's all.
12:16:49 <asiekierka> That should also be a source-toggleable option.
12:16:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, see 5.1 I think
12:17:01 <asiekierka> Why? Some people will make a bf chatterbot (!@#$%^!@#$%^) possibly
12:17:56 <asiekierka> So we should have 2 source-toggleable options.
12:18:14 <asiekierka> 1) Between outputting characters <32 as /x(number) and blocking them (except newline)
12:18:18 -!- makebot has joined.
12:18:23 <dark_templar> ...
12:18:37 <asiekierka> and 2) between accepting commands only starting with a specific char and erasing the char, and accepting everything.
12:18:42 <dark_templar> It pretty had to do some sort of 'cat' with input.
12:18:47 <dark_templar> But I'm pretty sure it won't
12:18:50 <asiekierka> `hi!
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12:19:59 <asiekierka> That's all *sigh*.
12:20:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ah, cheers
12:20:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is the point of cross references if no one follows them :P
12:20:39 <AnMaster> "see also blah blah"
12:20:42 <AnMaster> didn't you read that?
12:20:48 <AnMaster> :P
12:21:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, because just about every instruction says that
12:21:15 -!- makebot has joined.
12:21:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: since it's a PDF without links, browsing back and forth every time is a pain
12:21:19 -!- makebot has quit (Excess Flood).
12:21:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it have links, at least it does here
12:21:38 <asiekierka> What?
12:21:42 <asiekierka> couldn't see a word :/
12:21:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you can click 10
12:21:54 <dark_templar> run your imagination -a
12:21:58 <dark_templar> it was kicked for flood
12:21:59 <AnMaster> ok a mistake that they are black
12:21:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ah, UI fail then, they look no different from the rest of the text :-P
12:22:01 <dark_templar> so it had to do something
12:22:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I agree
12:22:06 <asiekierka> But where xD
12:22:34 <dark_templar> write me some program that takes 10 characters, outputs them with a #10
12:22:54 <asiekierka> I will make a program that takes 1 character and outputs it with a #10
12:22:54 <asiekierka> in a loop
12:23:23 <dark_templar> sure
12:23:28 <asiekierka> ++++++++++[>,.<.]
12:23:29 <dark_templar> that will make you get kicked for flood
12:23:29 <asiekierka> check it
12:23:34 <dark_templar> I wrote the same thing
12:23:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so colour them or something :-P
12:23:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fixed and uploaded
12:23:54 <dark_templar> http://zuoniel.republika.pl/ircfuck.py grab it with working output
12:23:56 <dark_templar> and input
12:24:03 <dark_templar> I gotta be going
12:24:14 <asiekierka> oh
12:24:16 <dark_templar> I really need that bag for my laptop
12:24:20 <asiekierka> wait, is the charcheck working?
12:24:24 <asiekierka> So i can make it detect a specific char?
12:24:29 <dark_templar> no, it isn't :>
12:24:29 <asiekierka> and only input that?
12:24:31 <asiekierka> Oh.
12:24:33 <asiekierka> Ok.
12:24:50 <asiekierka> bye!
12:24:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: better, thanks, but could have a bit more contrast, dark blue vs. black isn't that great
12:25:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is rather bright blue on my screen
12:25:15 <AnMaster> maybe you should color calibrate your monitor?
12:25:38 <dark_templar> grab it again, I added the <32 output ignore thing
12:25:45 <asiekierka> Ok!
12:26:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: when zoomed in 200% it's not obvious at a glance, at least to me
12:26:48 <dark_templar> oh, it has NO COPYRIGHT notices!
12:27:03 <dark_templar> for the Greater Lulz.
12:28:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, odd
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12:28:17 <asiekierka> Hmm
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12:28:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: maybe I'm just blind :-P raising blue from 122 to 192 makes it clearer to me
12:28:49 <dark_templar> what did you make it to do?
12:28:56 <dark_templar> for sure you shut it with a Ctrl-C
12:29:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, eh? I didn't upload the source file yet so how?
12:29:42 <asiekierka> Nothing, just keep talking
12:29:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: image editing programs exist :-P
12:29:46 -!- kierkabot has joined.
12:30:02 <dark_templar> pwn itself
12:30:02 -!- kierkabot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:30:08 <dark_templar> oh
12:30:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah right
12:30:17 <asiekierka> pwn itse, then it shut off
12:30:20 <asiekierka> as expected
12:30:23 <asiekierka> i used
12:30:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I got a rather good monitor, maybe that is the cause
12:30:36 <asiekierka> ++++++++++>>++++++++[[<,.>-]<<.>>]
12:30:38 <asiekierka> this
12:30:45 <asiekierka> Takes 8 chars, outputs them
12:30:45 <AnMaster> if you want I can try it on a even better monitor
12:30:45 <dark_templar> I made the process not terminate itself on purpose, cuz sometimes it failed to sent messages
12:30:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: as do I...
12:30:48 <AnMaster> I got no worse one
12:30:53 <asiekierka> And ends in a large crashlog.
12:30:55 <dark_templar> sure
12:30:59 * dark_templar goes off to buy a laptop bag
12:31:07 -!- dark_templar has quit ("happy botting!").
12:31:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Samsung SyncMaster 940B is the other monitor
12:31:20 <asiekierka> Anyone seeing me try to run Lost Kingdom on this, #esoteric-blah
12:31:21 <asiekierka> Now
12:31:24 <asiekierka> i'll soon do it
12:31:30 * AnMaster turns it on and goes to fiddle with nvidia-settings
12:31:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I can show you a screenshot
12:32:11 <asiekierka> Okay, it's in #esoteric-blah. Yay. :)
12:32:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that would look correct on mine
12:32:31 -!- dark_templar has joined.
12:32:40 <dark_templar> Oh, the online bank pwned itself, I can't reset the limits on my card...
12:32:51 <dark_templar> no bag :/
12:33:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: who said that anything looks incorrect, I'm just saying that it could use more contrast :-P
12:33:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: iki.fi/deewiant/asdf.png
12:33:18 <asiekierka> Oh man
12:33:20 <asiekierka> I tried it
12:33:21 <asiekierka> it crashed
12:33:27 <asiekierka> Lost Kingdom
12:33:28 <asiekierka> omg
12:33:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, on my screen that has a lot of contrast :/
12:33:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "5.1 on page 10" could be clearer to me
12:33:43 <asiekierka> Testing it again
12:33:48 <dark_templar> I hate things pwning itselves
12:33:52 -!- LostKingdomBot has joined.
12:33:57 <dark_templar> Pwn urself!
12:34:01 <asiekierka> Hm... Shouldn't it output?
12:34:04 <dark_templar> Well
12:34:04 <asiekierka> It's a 2MB mess
12:34:08 <dark_templar> 2 MB what?
12:34:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: on the more zoomed out ones in the lower window it's clear enough but zoomed in that far I didn't immediately notice that those aren't black
12:34:17 <asiekierka> a 2MB text adventure game
12:34:23 <asiekierka> I'll try a smaller-sized game now
12:34:24 -!- LostKingdomBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:34:30 <dark_templar> well
12:34:32 <dark_templar> It's Python
12:34:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm
12:34:38 <dark_templar> I'm sure it can pretty handle stuff that big
12:37:00 <asiekierka> it works in a normal BF interpreter
12:37:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hehe, actually I can even get an optical illusion out of this: staring at the 5 long enough it looks completely black after a few seconds :-)
12:37:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I notice it both zoomed and non-zoomed on my monitors
12:37:00 <AnMaster> :/
12:37:00 <dark_templar> Well
12:37:00 <dark_templar> (idea!)
12:37:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and nop that doesn't work for me
12:37:01 -!- stackoverbotter has joined.
12:37:01 <stackoverbotter> lolz
12:37:01 * oklopol made a bot!
12:37:01 <oklopol> hi stackoverbotter!
12:37:01 <stackoverbotter> lolz
12:37:01 <dark_templar> I could append a linefeed on each of the stuff appearing in chats!
12:37:01 <asiekierka> Is it in BFirc?
12:37:01 <dark_templar> nope
12:37:01 <asiekierka> hi stackoverbotter!
12:37:01 <stackoverbotter> lolz
12:37:01 <asiekierka> oh i see
12:37:01 <asiekierka> hi
12:37:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so what color temperature do you have
12:37:01 <AnMaster> very strange
12:37:01 <asiekierka> So what is it in :P
12:37:01 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p131415515.txt i call it stackoverbotter because python doesn't have tail recursion :P
12:37:01 <stackoverbotter> lolz
12:37:01 <asiekierka> }_}
12:37:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, looking...
12:37:01 <asiekierka> So we have 3 bots here
12:37:01 <asiekierka> And soon a 4th joins
12:37:01 <asiekierka> Yay :(
12:37:01 <oklopol> let's add my bf interpreter there
12:37:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well one screen only says "warm/normal/cool", set to normal, that is the least good monitor
12:37:42 <AnMaster> trying to find it in the menu system of the other monitor now
12:37:54 <dark_templar> grab it again
12:37:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: doesn't sound like a good monitor if it can't even tell you what temperature you have ;-)
12:38:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I said the least good
12:38:07 <asiekierka> Testing "Taking Over The World"
12:38:08 <dark_templar> it now adds a linefeed on each IRC message
12:38:11 -!- LostKingdomBot has joined.
12:38:13 <AnMaster> which is consumer crap but actually works well
12:38:17 <asiekierka> Yay, this works
12:38:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the other one got a crappy menu system
12:38:40 <dark_templar> Hey, it pwned itself!
12:38:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so it isn't that good either ;-)
12:38:42 <AnMaster> stop this notice spam please
12:38:42 <AnMaster> ....
12:38:46 -!- LostKingdomBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:38:52 <asiekierka> Ok
12:38:56 <asiekierka> Let me move it to -blah then
12:39:03 <dark_templar> kk
12:39:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, apart from this menu system it is good
12:39:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so, in total, it isn't good. ;-)
12:41:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it says it is "D65"
12:41:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but there will probably be some API to specify output as a string or something..
12:41:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 6500 K then I guess
12:41:47 <Deewiant> I use 9300 myself
12:41:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, pl
12:41:58 <AnMaster> ok*
12:42:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and well the cheaper monitor looks the same
12:42:18 <Deewiant> but yeah, that doesn't make much of a difference
12:42:28 <AnMaster> consumer crap but looks as good
12:42:34 <asiekierka> Another problem found
12:42:34 <AnMaster> so I guess it is the same then too
12:42:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or very close
12:42:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so it's more likely the problem is in my background lighting, eyes, or brain. :-)
12:43:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, background lighting here is outside daylight as reflected from a typical red Swedish house
12:43:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so have you tried increasing the blue to 192 and seeing if that makes ig ugly for you
12:43:18 <AnMaster> ie, this room got morning sun
12:43:20 <Deewiant> s/ig/it/
12:43:23 <AnMaster> it is a clear sky
12:43:27 <Deewiant> it's raining here
12:43:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, will try
12:43:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway since it is afternoon, no direct sun
12:44:49 <AnMaster> err
12:44:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 192?
12:44:57 <AnMaster> \definecolor{theblue}  {rgb}{0.02,0.04,0.48}
12:45:00 <AnMaster> is the current line
12:45:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 192 in the range 0-255
12:45:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can't be arsed to convert
12:45:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so 0.75
12:45:36 <AnMaster> uggly
12:45:40 <Deewiant> :-P
12:45:41 <AnMaster> really hurts my eyes
12:45:45 <AnMaster> too sharp blue
12:45:53 <Deewiant> do you have brightness set to 300% or something? ;-P
12:46:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, to 85%
12:46:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 100% on the cheaper monitor
12:46:36 <AnMaster> they match pretty closely then
12:46:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: how about underlining or bolding or italicizing links or something
12:46:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no idea how to do that
12:47:10 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/MUTMR695.html
12:47:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: \underline, \textbf, \textit
12:47:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, see what I pasted
12:47:30 <AnMaster> it is the hyperref package that does it
12:48:05 <Deewiant> eugh
12:48:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, eh?
12:48:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: set colorlinks to false? or was that what it was before?
12:48:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that would make them black
12:49:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: was that what it was before.
12:49:03 <AnMaster> before it was set as black by mistake
12:49:04 <asiekierka> Yay
12:49:08 <asiekierka> Taking Over The World works now
12:49:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: just set it to false
12:49:12 <AnMaster> as in not "theblue" but =black
12:49:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that should put a frame around them
12:49:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, underlines are uggly
12:49:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: which is also good because they are not printed then
12:49:27 <AnMaster> and the frames even worse
12:49:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the frame is even worse IMO
12:49:42 <AnMaster> also who the heck would print this!?
12:49:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: .......................
12:49:57 <Deewiant> why the hell is it a PDF if it's only for on-screen viewing
12:49:59 <Deewiant> ??
12:50:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I didn't think anyone would be crazy enough to implement it, yet alone print it :P
12:50:38 <Deewiant> if you don't care about printing and stuff like that then make it into HTML
12:50:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I can try to make it a different blue then
12:50:52 <Deewiant> if you do care, set colorlinks=false and use the frames :-P
12:51:00 <Deewiant> there are no other options here
12:51:09 <Deewiant> if it's a PDF it should be printer-friendly
12:51:12 <Deewiant> because that's the whole point
12:51:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I will try to use the same blue as wikipedia use in it's links
12:51:23 <AnMaster> less intensive
12:51:26 <AnMaster> yet I assume readable
12:51:51 <AnMaster> that is, external links
12:52:04 <AnMaster> or do you disagree again?
12:52:24 <asiekierka> http://zuoniel.republika.pl/ircfuck.py - yay, BFirc is finally done and fixed.
12:52:27 <asiekierka> Slow, but compatible.
12:52:34 <Deewiant> I disagree in that since this is a PDF you shouldn't be colouring stuff that only matters when viewed in a PDF viewer
12:53:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, those frames disrupt the flow of the text, make it hard to read
12:53:36 <AnMaster> I might as well drop the clickability
12:53:42 <AnMaster> would at least make you stop complain
12:54:03 <dark_templar> hey, is PDF an esoland?
12:54:11 <dark_templar> esolang*?
12:54:25 <AnMaster> nop
12:54:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why do you want to use a PDF?
12:54:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fine, now you want me to upload it as *.dvi I assume?
12:54:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: HTML
12:55:08 <oklopol> god this is hard, i'm basically copypasting code, and it's simply impossible to the the parens right
12:55:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, html is a language I hate to write in
12:55:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so don't write HTML, use markdown or restructuredText or whatever
12:55:31 <AnMaster> even worse
12:55:35 <Deewiant> and then generate HTML
12:55:39 <AnMaster> and typographically a horror
12:55:46 <Deewiant> err, what? elaborate
12:56:20 <AnMaster> what do you mean?
12:56:23 -!- stackoverbotter has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:56:45 <AnMaster> typographically, the web pages rendered by a browser is a horror
12:56:46 <Deewiant> firstly, how is it worse than LaTeX which is just as bad as HTML in that you can't see the content for the markup
12:56:56 <Deewiant> erm
12:56:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did I ever say that?
12:57:05 <AnMaster> nop I don't think I did
12:57:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, that's what I said
12:57:16 <Deewiant> LaTeX is as bad as HTML in that respect
12:57:21 <AnMaster> I didn't say that was a problem with html
12:57:28 <AnMaster> so I fail to see the relevance of it
12:57:33 <AnMaster> bbl
12:57:34 <Deewiant> so what is your problem with HTML
12:58:04 <dark_templar> 1) save webpages as Pascal programs  2) execute them at runtime 3) let them write the webpage with Graph module
12:58:49 <Deewiant> and as far as HTML typography, if you hate it then view it in PDF yourself
12:59:07 <Deewiant> others don't care, I'd rather have a plaintext file than a PDF in this case since there's zero advantage to having it be a PDF
12:59:15 <asiekierka> Evil Idea of the day: A legal TV signal broadcast station :)
12:59:32 <Deewiant> just write it in markdown/whatever, and generate HTML and PDF from that
13:00:00 <asiekierka> How can i do a legal TV signal broadcasting station?
13:00:07 <Deewiant> you get your pretty ligatures and others get something that's easy to work with
13:01:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/why-not-pdf.html
13:06:04 -!- stackoverbotter has joined.
13:06:04 <stackoverbotter> lolz
13:06:18 <AnMaster> back
13:06:27 <oklopol> &%#bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+++.!!!lol
13:06:27 <stackoverbotter> C
13:06:35 <oklopol> yay
13:06:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that paper is outdated, "xpdf 0.91 crashes;". well last version of xpdf seems to be 3.02, 0.91 was many years ago
13:06:53 <AnMaster> I don't think anyone use it today
13:06:59 <AnMaster> so you shall have your postscript variant
13:07:00 <AnMaster> sure
13:07:06 <AnMaster> I will make that if you want
13:07:12 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p134611352.txt
13:07:22 <oklopol> absolutely no checking for malicious thingies
13:07:28 <oklopol> so feel free to kline me
13:07:55 <asiekierka> Will you be back from the shop
13:07:58 <asiekierka> darktemplar
13:08:23 <asiekierka> Oh well
13:08:29 <asiekierka> Now i'm going to write my IRCBOTTEN
13:08:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that wasn't the point, the arguments are still valid
13:09:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: mostly the one on-screen reading
13:09:06 <Deewiant> s/one/one about/
13:09:10 <oklopol> that irc bot is exactly why i hate purely functional programming
13:09:13 <oklopol> in the unlambda sense
13:09:16 <Deewiant> s/one/ones/g gah
13:09:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: i.e. the point is the content, not the formatting
13:10:21 <oklopol> hmm what next, i've kinda exceeded my uselessness limit already
13:10:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, show me a browser that can properly do formatting then?
13:10:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: define "properly"
13:10:30 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:10:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with correct optically right margins, ie, microtypography
13:10:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: define "correct"
13:11:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Textformatting.svg
13:11:54 <AnMaster> decide which is easiest to read
13:12:06 <AnMaster> with the best margins
13:12:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: about the same IMO
13:12:51 <AnMaster> I find the left one easier to read
13:12:53 <AnMaster> by far
13:13:16 <Deewiant> I was almost going to say the right one is easier but decided they're about the same
13:13:17 <AnMaster> I find bad typography really really disturbing when reading
13:13:32 -!- dark_templar has quit.
13:13:54 <Deewiant> I just read the text and ignore what it looks like :-P
13:13:59 -!- asiekierka has joined.
13:14:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that's you
13:14:07 <Deewiant> (of course I'm exaggerating but you get my point)
13:14:51 -!- dark_templar has joined.
13:15:00 <Deewiant> I do notice stuff like ligatures, but I don't think they affect readability
13:15:04 <asiekierka> hi darktemplar
13:15:09 <Deewiant> sure, the text on the left looks a lot nicer
13:15:11 <asiekierka> Seems either my code has a bug
13:15:13 <asiekierka> or yours does
13:15:20 <Deewiant> but I think it's just as readable as the one on the right
13:15:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I disagree there
13:15:29 <asiekierka> pasting the code in a secondie
13:15:44 -!- dark_templar has left (?).
13:15:49 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/avNNHL38.html
13:15:54 <asiekierka> Great. I wonder why this doesn't work
13:16:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: do you want me to take over the protocol spec? I can produce HTML for myself and a nice PDF for you :-P
13:17:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I intend to try to find a working color
13:17:26 <asiekierka> Oh
13:17:26 <asiekierka> i know
13:17:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, think I found one
13:17:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I was serious though, I'd rather even write it myself since I'm actually implementing it now
13:18:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, new uploaded
13:18:10 <AnMaster> check it
13:18:27 <Deewiant> wow, red
13:18:48 <Deewiant> sure, better
13:20:04 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit ("Konversation terminated!").
13:21:02 <oklopol> i should make a compiler from python to purely functional python
13:24:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but do you feel like you still want to work on it? I can take it off your back
13:24:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you intend to do with it?
13:24:46 <AnMaster> how much would you change it
13:25:20 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
13:25:20 <Deewiant> the biggest changes would probably be the stuff I talked about in the e-mail I sent you a while back
13:25:46 <Deewiant> mostly simplifying it: make pre-run and stopped the same state, join breakpoints and events
13:25:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, email? my email haven't been working the last week
13:26:00 <Deewiant> maybe add some stuff (like the missing stack stack stuff)
13:26:14 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit.
13:26:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it was the one where you complained that I used "--"
13:26:32 <AnMaster> ah that
13:27:21 <AnMaster> well I can send you the lyx file
13:27:24 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/ - when i watch that thing with an orange portal, my mind alternates between it being outside and inside at once
13:28:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: sure, but I can always even write it from scratch myself, the main point here is that I'd rather not have us both writing the same thing independently :-)
13:29:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, true
13:29:04 <oklopol> let's all write it independently and kick the ones that are slow
13:29:14 * Deewiant kicks oklopol
13:29:34 <oklopol> hey!
13:29:38 <oklopol> i'm very fast
13:29:45 <oklopol> that's the one thing i can do
13:29:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster won, sorry ;-)
13:30:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, yeah draft 2 is already written by me, like draft 1
13:30:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also I feel that the official name should be the long: Funge protocol for interpreter tracing and debugging
13:30:32 <Deewiant> wasn't draft 2 just a few spelling corrections
13:30:34 <AnMaster> maybe you could make it even longer
13:30:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nah it was a bit more iirc
13:30:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why not just "Foo: the Funge protocol for..."
13:30:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, too easy!
13:30:57 <Deewiant> so there's a short official name "Foo"
13:31:14 <Deewiant> and you can just say "this interpreter is Foo compatible" or whatever
13:32:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, .tar.lzma or tar.bz2?
13:32:19 <AnMaster> which format to you prefer for the files
13:32:29 <Deewiant> whatever
13:32:38 <AnMaster> .lzma then
13:33:29 <AnMaster> http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/tmp/funge-frontend-protocol.tar.lzma
13:33:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
13:33:38 <AnMaster> hope you can open it
13:33:46 <AnMaster> if not just ask and I'll redo as .bz2
13:35:45 <Deewiant> why not just use 7-zip, it uses the same algorithm and you don't need to have a tar in between :-P
13:36:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, harder to use
13:36:39 <AnMaster> at least for me
13:36:46 <AnMaster> would have to learn a new program
13:37:05 <Deewiant> you already had to learn lzma
13:37:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, same interface as bzip2 and gzip
13:37:55 <AnMaster> so I fail to see your point
13:38:06 <AnMaster> lzma --best my-archive.tar
13:38:07 <Deewiant> maybe the linux version does
13:38:18 <Deewiant> the windows one has a very unique interface :-P
13:38:26 <oklopol> it's not about time of finishing, but about the time taken to write it
13:38:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I don't use windows
13:38:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why not tar -cjf in the first place
13:38:38 <oklopol> anyawy, i didn't even know what you were talking about, assumed a program
13:38:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that would produce bzip2
13:38:41 <asiekierka> I'm going to make another IRCmod of a language, possibly
13:38:42 <oklopol> *way
13:38:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fine if that is what you wan
13:38:47 <AnMaster> want*
13:39:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes exactly, so my point is why prefer typing a separate command to just adding a char :-)
13:39:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but this way I saved 381 bytes ;)!
13:39:09 <AnMaster> just kidding
13:39:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but you used up 140KB storing the uncompressed version before you put it through lzma
13:39:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I can reclaim that after
13:39:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or
13:40:04 <Deewiant> yes, after, but in the meanwhile your hard drive is now that much closer to failure ;-)
13:40:21 <Deewiant> and I find it a good habit anyway since if you're on a drive with low disk space that can matter
13:40:30 <AnMaster> tar -cf - mydir | lzma --best -c - > mycompressed-file
13:40:33 <AnMaster> I think that may work
13:40:37 <AnMaster> or something like it
13:40:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm not that low ;P
13:40:51 <AnMaster> also I got backups
13:40:52 <AnMaster> on tape
13:41:03 <Deewiant> and now you have to look up flags again since you only know it's "something like it" ;-)
13:41:20 <Deewiant> and yeah, but like said, I find it a good habit since you can get that low
13:41:28 <Deewiant> or if you're on a network drive or whatever
13:42:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, heck I bet I could even pipe it into ssh to make the compressed archive only show up on the server
13:42:36 <AnMaster> not that I plan to try
13:42:42 <AnMaster> but I'm almost sure it is possible
13:45:06 <Deewiant> heh
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14:08:52 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: there's a bug in your X in 3DSP
14:09:08 <Deewiant> or at least in your test for it
14:09:41 <MikeRiley> ok, what is the bug??
14:10:15 <Deewiant> I don't know, but the answer the test wants is wrong
14:10:33 <MikeRiley> and what do you believe the answer should be???
14:10:33 <Deewiant> neither matrix*vector or vector*matrix gives the result the test expects
14:10:57 <Deewiant> one moment, I will check using Mathematica to make sure it's right ;-)
14:11:01 <MikeRiley> ok
14:12:27 <oklopol> does all mycology test fingerprints?
14:13:03 <MikeRiley> mycology tests many fingerprints
14:13:16 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: using premultiplication which I guess is what you want (i.e. matrix*vector) it should be 5.50897 1.98446 7.98205
14:13:31 <Deewiant> the other way around it is 1.11603 7.66506 10.326
14:13:51 <ais523> oklopol: it doesn't test some fingerprints, for instance I don't think anyone but me dared write a test program for IFFI
14:13:58 <oklopol> iffi?
14:14:06 <ais523> Intercal-like Foreign Function Interface
14:14:13 <oklopol> intercal-like, right
14:14:16 <ais523> which I spent a month or so writing, to combine C-INTERCAL and cfunge
14:14:39 <MikeRiley> deewiant: your results appear to be missing the translation operation...
14:14:42 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: oh, and what the hell is MVRS, it looks scary and TRDS-like in its feralness :-P
14:14:45 <ais523> in theory it could work without an INTERCAL implementation, for instance you could connect two IFFI-enabled Funge interps with it in theory
14:14:57 <ais523> but in practice the only implementation anyone did was C-INTERCAL <-> cfunge
14:15:09 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: I'm just using the "transform matrix on concatenating with Z" you give at the end of the file
14:15:17 <MikeRiley> will explain MVRS in a moment,,,want to make sure the 3DSP is right..
14:15:19 <Deewiant> and multiplying it with (1 2 3 1)
14:15:36 <MikeRiley> understood deewiant,,,,but the calculation i am using may not be exactly the same....
14:15:53 <MikeRiley> checking it right now with calculcations i got from a book an doing 3d graphics...
14:15:54 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: CCBI gives what Mathematica gives
14:16:09 <Deewiant> i.e. 5.51 1.98 7.98
14:16:55 <MikeRiley> which is (1 2 3) less than my results,,,,,which is minus the translation operation...
14:17:24 <Deewiant> translation isn't an addition
14:17:33 <MikeRiley> was in the book i have.....
14:17:44 <Deewiant> and in any case, I get GOOD for all the tests before that (except N which assumes something about rounding)
14:17:58 <MikeRiley> yes, n does not assume rounding,,,
14:18:06 <MikeRiley> need to fix that a bit....
14:18:15 <MikeRiley> mine shows good,,,,but rounding could make it show bad...
14:18:18 <oklopol> o
14:18:20 <Deewiant> well your test gives BAD because it expects 0.444 or something when I get 0.445
14:18:39 <Deewiant> and 0.445 is actually closer to the correct result which is 0.4448 or so ;-)
14:18:54 <MikeRiley> which precision were you calculating with??
14:19:28 <Deewiant> I use floats but I the compiler may increase the precision if it thinks it's a good idea
14:19:29 <MikeRiley> i will probably modify that test a bit in order to fix possible rounding issues...
14:19:33 <Deewiant> s/I the/the/
14:19:58 <MikeRiley> i thought at the time that rounding issues may cause a problem..
14:20:14 <Deewiant> i.e. if I do float x = y * z then the compiler might choose to calculate y*z as long double before making it float
14:20:18 <MikeRiley> Rc/Funge-98 is using double for all those calculations...
14:20:58 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: looking at your source for X, Vector_Matrix_Mul looks wrong
14:21:12 <MikeRiley> that formula came from a book,,,,
14:21:26 <MikeRiley> and the more i think about it,,, which used that for a specific task...
14:21:27 <Deewiant> the last ones added should be b.c[3][0] and [3][1] etc instead of [0][3] [1][3]
14:21:33 <MikeRiley> mainly reorient an object,,,and then move it...
14:21:36 <Deewiant> just like all the others are
14:21:41 <MikeRiley> so probably not the best formula to use...
14:22:21 <MikeRiley> you have a wrong version....here is what is in vector.c:
14:22:40 <MikeRiley> struct VECTOR3 Vector_Matrix_Mul(struct VECTOR3 a,struct MATRIX b)
14:22:40 <MikeRiley> {
14:22:40 <MikeRiley>   struct VECTOR3 Result;
14:22:40 <MikeRiley>   Result.x=a.x*b.c[0][0]+a.y*b.c[1][0]+a.z*b.c[2][0]+b.c[0][3];
14:22:40 <MikeRiley>   Result.y=a.x*b.c[0][1]+a.y*b.c[1][1]+a.z*b.c[2][1]+b.c[1][3];
14:22:41 <MikeRiley>   Result.z=a.x*b.c[0][2]+a.y*b.c[1][2]+a.z*b.c[2][2]+b.c[2][3];
14:22:43 <MikeRiley>   return Result;
14:22:44 <Deewiant> I downloaded it today :-P
14:22:45 <MikeRiley> }
14:22:48 <Deewiant> yes, and that is wrong
14:22:49 <Deewiant> see
14:22:55 <Deewiant> a.x*b.c[0][0]+a.y*b.c[1][0]+a.z*b.c[2][0]+b.c[0][3];
14:22:57 <MikeRiley> the version on the website does not have the fixed code...
14:23:04 <Deewiant> why [0][0] [1][0] [2][0] [0][3]
14:23:09 <Deewiant> why is the last one in a different order
14:23:15 <Deewiant> it should be [3][0]
14:23:28 <MikeRiley> [3][0] would have zero in it...
14:23:55 <Deewiant> it should be consistent
14:23:58 <MikeRiley> a translation matrix for (1 2 3) would look like:
14:24:00 <MikeRiley> 1 0 0 0
14:24:03 <MikeRiley> 0 1 0 0
14:24:05 <MikeRiley> 0 0 1 0
14:24:08 <MikeRiley> 1 2 3 1
14:24:23 <Deewiant> fine, but in any case that formula should be consistent
14:24:25 <MikeRiley> again,,,this came from a book i have...
14:24:50 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: that formula gives incorrect results, Result is neither a*b nor b*a
14:24:52 <MikeRiley> they may have done things differently...
14:25:07 <Deewiant> (b*transpose(a) to be exact)
14:25:27 <Deewiant> if your storage is like that then I think flipping the others' order may help
14:25:32 <MikeRiley> do not know what their intention was....but my code comes up with their results....
14:25:36 <Deewiant> because it has to be consistent
14:25:40 <MikeRiley> they may have been doing somethign a bit different...
14:26:48 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: what do you get from multiplying {{1, 2, 3, 0}, {1, 2, 3, 0}, {1, 2, 3, 0}, {1, 2, 3, 1}} with {{1,2,3,1}}
14:27:10 <MikeRiley> i will look deeper into it,,,,look for some different formulas...
14:27:30 <MikeRiley> again,,,the intent of this book may have been slightly different than what you are expecting....
14:27:31 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: you can look on wikipedia for the formula for multiplying two matrices together...
14:27:39 <Deewiant> the intent should and does not matter
14:27:43 <MikeRiley> i know the formulat for multiplying two matrices...
14:27:47 <Deewiant> the fact is, that code does not multiply a vector by a matrix
14:28:12 <MikeRiley> intent does matter,,,if this book was using the matrices in a different way,,,it would matter about the formula they used....
14:28:17 <MikeRiley> either that,,,,or the book has it wrong...
14:28:51 <Deewiant> intent can't matter, multiplying two matrices together is a very well defined operation, if they do it differently it's not matrix multiplication
14:28:59 <MikeRiley> i understand that....
14:29:02 <Deewiant> the book may have a mistake indeed
14:29:11 <Deewiant> or you miscopied it, which I also think is a possibility
14:29:14 <MikeRiley> i agree,,,the book could have mistake in it...
14:29:23 <MikeRiley> i am looking at the book right now....matches my formulas...
14:29:38 <Deewiant> have you tried changing the order of those from [1][0] to [0][1]?
14:29:44 <MikeRiley> no miscopy....but definitely possible the book has them wrong
14:29:47 <Deewiant> maybe the formulas match but your storage order differs
14:30:05 <MikeRiley> no,,,using all the matrix/vector functions from this book....
14:30:16 <MikeRiley> and my results match the results from the book,,,,,
14:30:22 <Deewiant> give me an example result
14:30:28 <MikeRiley> so my code matches the book,,,,but the book may be wrong...
14:30:43 <MikeRiley> the example from the book is the example in the 3DSP test...
14:30:51 <Deewiant> well then the book is wrong
14:30:53 <MikeRiley> that is how i knew the results to test...
14:30:57 <MikeRiley> i can accept that...
14:31:04 <Deewiant> like said, I posted above the two possible results of that multiplication
14:31:08 <Deewiant> depending on which order it's done in
14:31:12 <Deewiant> and what the test expects is neither
14:31:38 <MikeRiley> i will look deeper into it....chances are the book i have is wrong....
14:33:16 <MikeRiley> anyhow...will get it straightened out and redo the test program to have correct results....
14:33:52 <Deewiant> alright, thanks
14:33:58 <Deewiant> now what about MVRS??
14:35:13 <MikeRiley> MVRS is a support fingerprint for a new feature in Rc/Funge-98 V2,,,,essentially concurrent concurrent funge...
14:35:22 <ais523> concurrent concurrent funge?
14:35:30 <MikeRiley> V2 can run multiple funges at once....
14:35:42 <pikhq> That's fiendish. :)
14:35:43 <MikeRiley> MVRS allows for data copy between funges,,,,
14:35:55 <MikeRiley> as well as the ability of an IP to travel to another funge...
14:36:04 <ais523> even C-INTERCAL can only have one Funge linked in at a time right now
14:36:27 <Deewiant> I was afraid it would be something like that :-p
14:36:34 <MikeRiley> V2 can now run an unlimited (well limited by memory) number of virtual machines...
14:36:41 <ais523> MikeRiley: can they have different numbers of dimensions?
14:36:46 <MikeRiley> yes they can
14:36:51 <Deewiant> egads
14:37:03 <MikeRiley> also,,,one can be running funge/98 while another is running funge/93 or or funge/108
14:37:23 <MikeRiley> one can be running befunge while another is running unefunge or trefunge...
14:37:32 <MikeRiley> each VM is its own universe....
14:37:36 <ais523> MikeRiley: can any of them run programs other than funges?
14:37:56 <MikeRiley> i suppose it is possible,,,,but only funges are defined...
14:38:04 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: are they synchronized? i.e. all at the same tick (forgetting about TRDS)
14:38:20 <MikeRiley> there is a note in the manual concerning TRDS
14:38:31 <ais523> although I suppose that if you have the ability to redefine commands other than A-Z, you could easily write something in Funge that changed a Funge interpreter into a Brainfuck interpreter by redefining []+-,.<>
14:38:31 <Deewiant> unfortunately there is no manual about it online
14:38:34 <Deewiant> only the test
14:38:36 <MikeRiley> each universe is its own...TRDS only effects the universe it is running in...and no others....
14:38:47 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: but still, doesn't answer my question, are they synchronized
14:39:09 <MikeRiley> as far as tick count....they are not synchronized if you use TRDS
14:39:13 <MikeRiley> otherwise they will be
14:39:20 <Deewiant> okay, so they are
14:39:29 <Deewiant> that makes it a bit easier to reason about :-)
14:39:38 <MikeRiley> jumping backwards in TRDS would change the tick count for only universe where somethign went backwards...
14:40:09 <MikeRiley> the code that executes this,,,,,loops over each VM,,,,which in each VM there is code that loops over each IP....
14:40:28 <MikeRiley> so once all the IPs in one VM have run,,,,then the next one will execute all of its IPs, etc...
14:41:03 <MikeRiley> the spec for MVRS is still in change...but here is what there is of it so far:
14:41:05 <MikeRiley> "MVRS" 0x4d565253
14:41:05 <MikeRiley> -----------------
14:41:05 <MikeRiley> B (0gnirts flags--)     - Big-Bang, create another universe
14:41:05 <MikeRiley> C ( -- n)               - Number of existing universes
14:41:05 <MikeRiley> F (0gnirts Vd Vs Vsz)   - Copy funge-space from another universe
14:41:06 <MikeRiley> G (0gnirts Vp Vd)       - Go to another universe
14:41:08 <MikeRiley> J (0gnirts --)          - Jump to new universe
14:41:10 <MikeRiley> N ( -- 0gnirts)         - Get name of current universe
14:41:12 <MikeRiley> P (0gnirts Vd Vs Vsz)   - Copy funge-space to another universe
14:41:14 <MikeRiley> F source vector must be x,y,z even if source universe is unefunge or befunge
14:41:16 <MikeRiley> F size vector is based upon current universe
14:41:18 <MikeRiley> J keeps position and delta
14:41:20 <MikeRiley> Any command specifying a universe will reflect if the universe does
14:41:22 <MikeRiley> not exist
14:41:22 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: so hmm, they are still executed discretely?
14:41:24 <MikeRiley> B Flags:
14:41:26 <MikeRiley>     1 - Unefunge
14:41:28 <MikeRiley>     2 - Befunge
14:41:30 <MikeRiley>     3 - Trefunge
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14:41:32 <MikeRiley>     4 - Funge/93
14:41:34 <MikeRiley>     8 - Funge/98
14:41:35 <ais523> hi tusho
14:41:36 <MikeRiley>    12 - Funge/108
14:41:38 <MikeRiley>    16 - Supress summary
14:41:40 <MikeRiley>    32 - Enable debugger
14:41:42 <MikeRiley>    64 - Enable trace mode
14:41:44 <MikeRiley>   128 - Official version of y
14:41:45 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: you should really consider pastebins or something
14:41:46 <MikeRiley> Defaults:
14:41:48 <MikeRiley>   Befunge
14:41:50 <MikeRiley>   Funge/98
14:41:52 <MikeRiley> yes
14:41:54 <MikeRiley> they are not independently executed...so they are cycle synced...
14:42:01 <MikeRiley> pastebins???
14:42:22 <ais523> MikeRiley: instead of putting a lot of text into the channel, you put it into a pastebin and link to the pastebin
14:42:23 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: i.e. places on the 'Net where you can paste stuff, as opposed to pasting to IRC :-)
14:42:26 <KingOfKarlsruhe> like http://paste.pocoo.org/
14:42:33 <MikeRiley> oh...ok,,,,
14:42:34 <tusho> that was scripted ais523
14:42:36 <tusho> MikeRiley: stop flooding
14:42:38 <tusho> MikeRiley: pastebin.ca
14:42:40 <tusho> so that you don't flood the channel
14:42:40 <ais523> tusho: no it wasn't
14:42:45 <tusho> ais523: :)
14:42:50 <ais523> I happened to be reading what MikeRiley was saying at the time
14:42:53 <ais523> and just typed it when I saw you log in
14:43:04 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: so hmm, if you do F in universe B then universe A has already executed and you'll get this tick's universe A instead of last tick's?
14:43:42 <MikeRiley> correct
14:43:52 <MikeRiley> however the universe looks at the time F is executed
14:44:00 <Deewiant> or is it defined to be in the reverse order like IPs
14:44:18 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: what do you mean
14:44:18 <ais523> re the topic: someone should write an API to get the entire backlog of #esoteric as a string or something
14:44:38 <ais523> probably optbot, it seems to claim there would be
14:44:38 <optbot> ais523: or objc
14:44:59 <MikeRiley> the code for F is simple....merly do a funge-space copy....however the source exists at the time of execution is what you get...
14:45:21 <MikeRiley> does not matter what cycle any universe might be in...
14:49:06 <MikeRiley> i put a copy of the V2 source on my site if you want to see what i am doing. http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge2.tgz
14:50:11 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: you should fix the MIME types on your site
14:50:21 <MikeRiley> i have no control over them
14:50:22 <Deewiant> that is most definitely not text/html :-P
14:50:28 <MikeRiley> i agree....
14:50:42 <MikeRiley> at least i do not think i do....let me look....
14:50:45 <Deewiant> where do you host your stuff
14:51:17 <MikeRiley> ipower.com
14:51:58 <MikeRiley> looking now to see if i can change the mime types...
14:52:00 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: they do advertise "Customizable MIME Types"
14:52:39 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,looking.....not finding it so far....
14:53:08 <Deewiant> well I don't know about their user interface but it /should/ be there and if you can't find it, complain to them :-P
14:53:45 <MikeRiley> might have to.....been through half the stuff there,,,and so far no mime types
14:54:37 <Deewiant> hmm, looks like MVRS is going to force me to rewrite my interpreter :-)
14:55:01 <MikeRiley> i had to rewrite mine....
14:55:09 <ais523> Deewiant: do you still aim to implement every fingerprint ever?
14:55:23 <MikeRiley> but at the same time,,,will now allow me to replace my mini-funge with a much more powerful one...
14:55:33 <Deewiant> ais523: I never did, so don't hold your breath on IFFI ;-)
14:55:37 <ais523> ok
14:55:52 <Deewiant> ais523: WIND and FING were the two that I consciously decided not to, earlier
14:56:07 <MikeRiley> Rc/Funge-98 probably supports more fingerprints than anything,,,but sill not all of them that exist...
14:56:19 <MikeRiley> and FNGR deewiant??? eheheeheheheh
14:56:33 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: did I confuse FING and FNGR?
14:56:38 <MikeRiley> yes you did
14:56:43 <MikeRiley> FING is the new one...
14:56:49 <MikeRiley> FNGR is the big scary one...
14:56:51 <Deewiant> alright, so WIND and FNGR then
14:57:57 <MikeRiley> well,,,if ipower supports customizable mime types...they are not on my control panel anywhere....
14:58:13 <MikeRiley> and probably all the SysV IPC ones as well deewiant???
14:58:21 <ais523> I feel so proud, I managed to make a fingerprint that everyone's scared of implementing
14:58:44 <tusho> there should be an EVAL fingerprint
14:58:46 <tusho> that's my contribution
14:58:53 <ais523> tusho: that evaluates what?
14:58:56 <ais523> PERL evaluates Perl
14:58:59 <tusho> ais523: befunge-98
14:59:00 <tusho> duh
14:59:03 <tusho> er
14:59:06 <tusho> funge-98
14:59:09 <ais523> tusho: couldn't you just use a goto?
14:59:10 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: yes, I won't implement any non-portable ones
14:59:14 <ais523> or MikeRiley's MVRS?
14:59:18 <tusho> ais523: maybe?
14:59:20 <tusho> i dunno :D
14:59:23 <Deewiant> ais523: are the docs for it somewhere
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14:59:57 <Deewiant> IFFI, that is
14:59:58 <ais523> Deewiant: yes they are, I'll compile them for you though because I think they're only in source form on the Internet atm
15:00:03 <ais523> I'll put compiled documentation up for you
15:00:14 <Deewiant> great :-)
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15:00:36 <MikeRiley> what would EVAL do???? that cannot already be done???
15:00:49 <tusho> MikeRiley: not sure
15:00:50 <tusho> hmm
15:00:54 <tusho> different dimensions
15:00:54 <MikeRiley> eheheh
15:00:58 <tusho> you could execute trefunge in befunge
15:01:06 <tusho> by passing ( code 3 ) to the eval command
15:01:11 <MikeRiley> MVRS in a way could let you do that...
15:01:21 <tusho> as well as unefunge in befunge, etc with ( code 1 )
15:01:38 <MikeRiley> interesting idea...just wonder if it really has any use...
15:02:00 <tusho> MikeRiley: Do most funge things have a use? :)
15:02:07 <tusho> fizzie
15:02:11 <tusho> could use it for fungot
15:02:17 <tusho> (as an ^eval command only he could use)
15:02:18 <MikeRiley> well....no....except keep people like us busy messing with it!!!! eheheheeheheheheheh
15:02:27 <tusho> but then you could just do a goto in that case
15:02:32 <tusho> still, the different-dimensions thing is nice
15:02:48 <ais523> http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/doc/html/guplsbpq.htm#The-IFFI-Fingerprint
15:02:50 <ais523> Deewiant: ^
15:02:58 <Deewiant> cheers
15:05:18 <ais523> the joys of distributed version control, I can compile the documentation directly in the repository and it doesn't break anything
15:08:18 <Deewiant> ais523: that's some deep funge-intercal entanglement going on there :-P
15:08:26 <ais523> Deewiant: yes, it is
15:08:29 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
15:08:42 <ais523> the Funge program can even change the syntax of the INTERCAL program by adding new commands
15:08:45 <ais523> or new operators
15:12:17 <tusho> Suggested name for bridges of this sort: Esolang intercourse.
15:14:31 <Deewiant> or just esoteric intercourse
15:14:53 <tusho> Yes, that flows better. (<-- Man, that wasn't even intentional)
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15:15:11 <MikeRiley> deewiant,, do you know what your final transform matrix looks like??? want to see if yours and mine are the same now...
15:15:55 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: everything up to what X expects after the call are the same as what the test expects
15:16:55 <MikeRiley> here is what mine looks like now:
15:17:04 <MikeRiley> 0.750 -0.433 1.874 5.508
15:17:04 <MikeRiley> 0.433 1.750 -0.649 1.984
15:17:04 <MikeRiley> -0.500 0.866 2.249 7.982
15:17:04 <MikeRiley> 0.000 0.000 0.000 1.000
15:17:33 <MikeRiley> this is the final one,,,after all the rotations ahave been multiplied in...
15:18:10 <Deewiant> so it looks like you changed from column vectors to row vectors
15:18:25 <MikeRiley> only thing i changed wat the translation matrix...
15:18:39 <MikeRiley> the rest are unchanged
15:18:45 <Deewiant> so what code did you change?
15:18:49 <MikeRiley> so translation produces this now:
15:18:51 <MikeRiley> 1 0 0 x
15:18:54 <MikeRiley> 0 1 0 y
15:18:57 <MikeRiley> 0 0 1 z
15:18:59 <MikeRiley> 0 0 1 1
15:19:08 <MikeRiley> instead of the x y z on row 3...
15:19:08 <Deewiant>  0 0 0 1 probably
15:19:17 <MikeRiley> yes,,,on that last row...
15:19:25 <MikeRiley> i changed the code that generates translation matrices...
15:20:08 <MikeRiley> new code creates them as above....old code made these:
15:20:10 <MikeRiley> 1 0 0 0
15:20:13 <MikeRiley> 0 1 0 0
15:20:15 <MikeRiley> 0 0 1 0
15:20:17 <MikeRiley> x y z 1
15:20:35 <MikeRiley> no other code has changed at this point...
15:21:10 <MikeRiley> and changed vector_matrix_mul to this:
15:21:14 <MikeRiley>   Result.x=a.x*b.c[0][0]+a.y*b.c[1][0]+a.z*b.c[2][0]+b.c[3][0];
15:21:14 <MikeRiley>   Result.y=a.x*b.c[0][1]+a.y*b.c[1][1]+a.z*b.c[2][1]+b.c[3][1];
15:21:14 <MikeRiley>   Result.z=a.x*b.c[0][2]+a.y*b.c[1][2]+a.z*b.c[2][2]+b.c[3][2];
15:23:06 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: so now T says the matrix is wrong in that test... :-P
15:23:47 <MikeRiley> yes,,,,i fixed the test for T
15:24:02 <MikeRiley> need to fix teh matrix comparison on the final matrix...then will upload new test
15:24:26 <MikeRiley> also fixed the tst for S * T which would have been wrong as well
15:25:55 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: fixed it manually by replacing @s, and yes that is the same matrix as I get
15:26:07 <Deewiant> the result after X is [11.02, 3.97, 15.96, 1.00]
15:27:20 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,,let me fix the test...then will see the final on X
15:29:08 <MikeRiley> 11.017948806286 3.968910902739 11.017948806286
15:29:12 <MikeRiley> is what i get...
15:31:04 <Deewiant> well that's wrong :-P
15:31:20 <Deewiant> mathematica:
15:31:24 <Deewiant> {{11.014}, {3.97}, {15.961}, {1.}}
15:31:27 <Deewiant> or
15:31:28 <Deewiant> {{0.116, 5.665, 7.323, 34.422}}
15:31:50 <MikeRiley> hmmmmmmmm
15:32:13 <MikeRiley> first 2 look good.....wonder what is up with z.....
15:32:15 <Deewiant> I just use the same routine for matrix-matrix and matrix-vector multiplication, much simpler :-)
15:32:54 <MikeRiley> mine just eliminates the loops....but should still produce the same result....in theory....
15:33:09 <MikeRiley> but something is not right...
15:33:21 <MikeRiley> if you have the same final transform matrix as i do....hmmmmm
15:33:39 <Deewiant> for mathematica I just used the matrix you pasted earlier, verbatim
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15:34:32 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,then i would expect your result is teh correct one....wonder why only my z is off....curious....
15:36:47 <MikeRiley> type!!!!! stupid me!!!! eheheheheheheheehhe here is what i get now:
15:36:49 <MikeRiley> 11.017948806286 3.968910902739 15.964100480080
15:37:03 <Deewiant> what was the typo?
15:37:17 <Deewiant> of course it was one, but what was it :-)
15:37:30 <MikeRiley> in my printf i was outputing a.x instead of a.z!!! eheheeheheheheheheheheh
15:37:37 <Deewiant> :-D
15:37:45 <MikeRiley> plugging final numbers into the test....
15:41:51 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,test works now with new numbers...
15:45:12 <MikeRiley> posted new test for 3DSP...
15:46:57 <Deewiant> N and X fail for CCBI due to precision issues, otherwise all good
15:47:16 <Deewiant> (this is why Mycology only gives UNDEFs for FPSP and FPDP!)
15:47:50 <MikeRiley> yeah.,,,probably a good idea....
15:48:36 <MikeRiley> intersting tho that it matrix checks right,,,since those are all fp as well...
15:49:23 <Deewiant> it's just luck
15:49:39 <MikeRiley> guess so....
15:50:01 <MikeRiley> and it checks for me since i used the output of my calculations to produce the test comparison...
15:50:17 <Deewiant> yeah, that would help :-P
15:50:22 <MikeRiley> yep.....
15:50:38 <MikeRiley> might change things to undef and then print the results and what the results should be...
15:50:58 <MikeRiley> or else multiply the results by 1000 and take the integer and compare to that...
15:51:14 <MikeRiley> measuring to 3 digits should be precise enough??? and prevent rounding erorrs
15:51:41 <Deewiant> yeah, that should work as well
15:51:49 <Deewiant> just 1 digit is probably good enough also...
15:52:07 <MikeRiley> probably....if a calc is wrong, it is liable to be way wrong
15:52:27 <MikeRiley> just like my previous X!!! eheheheheh
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16:51:36 <asiekierka> Ok, upped Screeble #23. http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles
16:55:01 <dogface> Yay!
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18:41:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | : probably isn't well explained..
18:57:20 <Mony> bye
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19:01:08 <asiekierka> hi
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19:04:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I will not be reachable tomorrow btw
19:05:16 <Deewiant> alright
19:05:45 <Deewiant> (I won't remember tomorrow anyway so if I have something to ask I'll ask it in any case :-P)
19:17:58 <asiekierka> ...
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20:01:46 <fizzie> Deewiant; We (or at least I) will then mercilessly mock you for your forgetfulness.
20:02:01 <Deewiant> so I better not ask anything then ;-)
20:03:10 <fizzie> Mission: accomplished.
20:05:19 -!- tusho has joined.
20:06:24 <tusho> zap zop zoot!
20:07:09 <tusho> Hi, dogface.
20:11:30 <fizzie> For some reason I am sorely tempted to utter something like "Hello, little girly man." but that would be just pointless; can't resist mentioning it this way, though.
20:17:26 <tusho> i don't even look female ;.;
20:23:53 <fizzie> There was that one video; it's the only picturological thing of you I have seen.
20:24:04 <AnMaster> an idea:
20:24:18 <AnMaster> WikiLinux - The Free Linux distro that anyone can edit
20:24:18 <fizzie> AnMaster; Not the nude pics again.
20:24:19 <AnMaster> XD
20:25:15 <tusho> fizzie: http://tentaclerapture.com/lulz/photo2.jpg
20:26:20 <oklopol> po
20:26:22 <oklopol> *o
20:26:34 <tusho> oklopol: oko.
20:26:40 <oklopol> ooooooookokokokokoko
20:26:53 <tusho> fizzie: please don't say photo2.jpg looks like a girl too
20:26:53 <tusho> :P
20:27:35 <fizzie> But it does!
20:27:40 <oklopol> ya i'm so gonna wank @ that!
20:27:49 <tusho> oklopol: :|
20:27:50 <fizzie> Are you _absolutely_ sure about your gender?
20:27:56 <tusho> fizzie: Quite thoroughly.
20:27:57 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i'm here now, in case you need me, btw.
20:28:01 <oklopol> at least i think i am
20:28:02 <tusho> Unless I just grew a penis somehow.
20:28:03 <oklopol> hmm
20:28:05 <tusho> And I'm also gay.
20:28:16 <tusho> Uh, that was a bundled statement.
20:28:22 <tusho> {Unless I just grew a penis somehow and I'm also gay}
20:28:37 <oklopol> i don't get it
20:28:46 <oklopol> hey
20:28:48 <oklopol> i got it
20:28:49 <oklopol> cool
20:28:49 <tusho> oklopol: If I was female then I'd have had to grow a penis somehow
20:28:51 <tusho> and I'd also be gay
20:28:55 <oklopol> genders are so complicated
20:29:21 <oklopol> well for some reason i thought of the penis as a gender switch
20:29:43 <tusho> Gender is seperate from sex.
20:29:49 <tusho> Hmm.
20:29:52 <tusho> Then I replied to [20:27:50] <fizzie> Are you _absolutely_ sure about your gender? wrongly.
20:30:03 <tusho> Although I am sure of both my gender and sex (they're both male.)
20:30:04 <oklopol> i don't believe in complicated things, actually, penis will from now on be my definition of male
20:30:23 <oklopol> for both gender and sex
20:30:25 <tusho> oklopol: so eunuchs are genderless?
20:30:28 <oklopol> yes
20:30:31 <oklopol> definitely
20:30:32 <tusho> cool
20:31:02 <oklopol> gender doesn't have meaning to me, as anything but a physical detail of the body
20:31:15 <oklopol> or a set of details
20:31:34 <tusho> gender is mental
20:31:36 <tusho> sex is physical
20:31:54 <oklopol> gender isn't mental, you have a physical sex and a sexual preference.
20:32:01 <tusho> gender is mental
20:32:10 <tusho> why do you think people have sex changes?
20:32:14 <tusho> their gender is A, their sex is B.
20:32:25 <oklopol> they prefer a set of genitals better than the other
20:32:32 <tusho> no
20:32:35 <tusho> that's sexual orientation
20:32:36 <tusho> not gender
20:32:53 <oklopol> you're complicating things for no reason
20:33:02 <tusho> no, I'm not
20:33:11 <tusho> you're just being completely insensitive to a huge range of people
20:33:23 <oklopol> oh god i'm so sorry! :O
20:34:31 <oklopol> all i'm saying is the separation of gender and sex is meaningless to me, for all intents and purposes.
20:35:33 <oklopol> i can live with "some people wanna be physically female/male, most people are one or the other, physically, and most people like one of the two sexes better than the other"
20:35:49 <oklopol> but i don't believe in gender
20:36:09 <AnMaster> there should be an unicode symbol for "there are too many unicode symbols"
20:36:10 <AnMaster> :D
20:36:15 <tusho> oklopol: it's a good thing not believing in something doesn't make it not exist
20:36:16 <oklopol> "being completely insensitive" doesn't really mean anything to me either.
20:36:35 <tusho> oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender
20:36:36 <tusho> plz read.
20:36:51 <oklopol> tusho: anyway, this is one of those issues where you say something exists without actually defining it; you may be right, but things without definition are nothing to me.
20:37:06 <tusho> oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender
20:37:07 <oklopol> this has happened about a million times, i simply see the world differently than humans
20:37:10 <tusho> there's your definition
20:37:29 <oklopol> gender = preferred set of genitals
20:37:36 <oklopol> according to that
20:37:57 <tusho> did you even fucking read
20:38:21 <tusho> Gender refers to the differences between men and women. Encyclopædia Britannica notes that gender identity is "an individual's self-conception as being male or female, as distinguished from actual biological sex."[1] Although gender is commonly used interchangeably with sex, within the social sciences it often refers to specifically social differences, known as gender roles in the biological sciences.
20:38:33 <tusho> People whose gender identity feels incongruent with their physical bodies may call themselves transgender or genderqueer.
20:38:44 <fizzie> I think the point to note here is "commonly used interchangeably with sex".
20:38:56 <fizzie> And "within the social sciences" is not necessarily the case here.
20:38:57 <oklopol> not really, fizzie
20:39:07 <oklopol> i know the distinction, and was going by it
20:39:11 <oklopol> as was tusho
20:39:25 <tusho> fizzie: Would you refer to a transsexual as their sex or their gender?
20:39:31 <tusho> I should hope the latter.
20:39:32 <oklopol> anyway, "gender roles" don't mean anything to me
20:39:36 <oklopol> what are those?
20:39:56 <oklopol> not that i care, why the fuck can't you let me disagree?
20:40:08 <oklopol> this is so uninteresting i can't breathe.
20:40:34 <tusho> disagreeing on facts is rather unreasonable
20:40:41 <oklopol> lol
20:41:02 <oklopol> well i'm not gonna argue anymore, for all intents and purposes we agree completely.
20:41:15 <tusho> no, we don't
20:41:23 <tusho> you "don't believe" in gender
20:41:50 <oklopol> i don't believe it's a useful property to list on a human
20:42:18 <oklopol> "not believing" doesn't really mean anything to me, i've already explained what i meant
20:42:42 <oklopol> anyway, really, this is stupid
20:42:53 <oklopol> gotta do some workie
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20:43:44 <dogface> People don't have gender, words have gender.
20:44:05 <oklopol> :P
20:44:24 <dogface> "Cara" is feminine, "sacapuntas" is masculine, "carro" is masculine, "pluma" is feminine...
20:44:31 <fizzie> Well, my particular viewpoint here is that in casual conversation I ought to be able to say either "sex" or "gender" and assume that a single answer ("male" or "female") will suffice for most; and in more complicated cases the answer will then include both "sex" and "gender", whatever those are.
20:44:32 <tusho> dogface: people and words have gender
20:44:40 <fizzie> Our words do not have gender. :/
20:44:44 <tusho> fizzie: Correct. :P
20:44:45 <dogface> "dogface" is neither, because it's in English.
20:45:13 <tusho> fizzie: So say someone said that their sex was male but their gender was female. Would you refer to them as "he" or "she"?
20:45:15 <oklopol> fizzie: that hasn't been the issue at any point of this conversation
20:45:20 <tusho> I would hope "she".
20:45:48 <MikeRiley> interesting topic for this channel!!
20:45:59 <dogface> Actually pretty boring.
20:46:03 <MikeRiley> /me wonders what he came into the middle of....
20:46:06 <dogface> Semantic debates are evil.
20:46:08 <tusho> MikeRiley: this is #esoteric, what did you expect
20:46:12 <dogface> And boring = evil.
20:46:13 <oklopol> indeed, i don't think we've ever had a conversation this useless
20:46:15 <MikeRiley> guess so!!! eheheeheheh
20:46:22 <tusho> anyway, i've asked fizzie that question twice, i'll ask it until he answers and then I'll stop discussing this
20:46:31 <MikeRiley> which question??
20:46:38 <oklopol> fizzie: answer what he hopes, fast :P
20:46:49 <tusho> MikeRiley: [20:45:12] <tusho> fizzie: So say someone said that their sex was male but their gender was female. Would you refer to them as "he" or "she"?
20:47:01 <MikeRiley> i would say she....
20:47:18 <dogface> I'd ask them which they'd prefer I refer to them as.
20:47:35 <tusho> dogface: The whole point of them identifying their gender as female would be that they consider themselves female.
20:47:37 <MikeRiley> if they considered their gender to be female,,,then she is the appropriate pronoun...
20:47:41 <tusho> MikeRiley: agreed
20:48:28 <MikeRiley> or if they are bi-gendered, then whatever gender they present as is the appropriate one to call them...
20:48:37 * tusho nods
20:48:43 <dogface> tusho: what if they independently decide that "gender" is physical, "sex" is imagined?
20:48:52 <dogface> Or if I have no idea what they're talking about?
20:48:56 <tusho> dogface: then they'd just be shuffling terms for no reason :P
20:48:59 <tusho> and presumably you could ask
20:48:59 <tusho> anyway
20:49:00 <MikeRiley> gender is how you feel about yourself...sex is your plumbing....
20:49:01 <tusho> I'll stop talking now
20:49:05 <tusho> fizzie can reply to me in /msg
20:49:24 <MikeRiley> how you view yourself that should be...
20:49:48 <fizzie> Sorry, WLAN troubleshooting here; that has a rather larger priority than the poinless sex/gender stuff.
20:49:57 <tusho> so, more important topics. Like befunge. :P
20:50:21 <oklopol> i haven't worked on my languages for ages :<
20:50:32 <oklopol> sleepy all the time, can't get anything done really
20:50:32 <MikeRiley> i find both topics fascinating,,,,but expect more topics like befunge than sex/gender/tg ones...
20:50:35 <oklopol> blargh
20:50:42 <dogface> oklopol: learning to speak various natural languages?
20:51:05 <oklopol> dogface: well sure, but i was talking about my esolangs
20:51:21 <oklopol> i'm slowly learning them all, of course, at various paces :D
20:51:43 <tusho> MikeRiley: #esoteric being on topic has been a bit of an anomaly lately
20:51:56 <MikeRiley> i see....
20:52:06 <oklopol> yeah it's great the channel name is so permitting
20:52:49 * dogface directs everybody in the world into #esoteric-blah
20:52:57 <tusho> dogface: that's for botfloods
20:53:00 <tusho> not general discussion
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20:55:38 <oklopol> hmm, wonder how long stackoverbotter has time left :P
20:55:38 <stackoverbotter> lolz
20:55:56 <oklopol> what's the default stack size in python?
20:56:21 <oklopol> 1000
20:56:23 <oklopol> hmm
20:56:36 <oklopol> how the fuck is it still online
20:59:54 <tusho> what is stackoverbotter
20:59:54 <stackoverbotter> lolz
20:59:56 <oklopol> anyone wanna count the lines since stackoverbotter joined
20:59:56 <stackoverbotter> lolz
21:00:05 <tusho> stackoverbotter: hmm hi
21:00:05 <stackoverbotter> lolz
21:00:06 <tusho> what does it do
21:00:08 <tusho> ah
21:00:11 <oklopol> it's a purely functional, in the unlambda sense, irc bot
21:00:12 <tusho> replies lolz when you talk to it?
21:00:18 <oklopol> yeah and runs bf
21:00:42 <tusho> oklopol: link to src?
21:00:44 <oklopol> coded it in python, the bf interpreter i did ages ago, but it was quite hard to get in
21:00:45 <tusho> psygnisfive: bf 2
21:00:46 <oklopol> err sure
21:00:47 <tusho> er
21:00:48 <oklopol> wait a mo
21:00:49 <tusho> stackoverbotter: bf 2
21:00:49 <stackoverbotter> lolz
21:00:52 <tusho> !bf 2
21:00:57 <tusho> !bf ,[.,]!hi
21:00:59 <oklopol> hmm
21:01:54 <fizzie> Is a bot that doesn't run brainfuck really a bot, anyway? It seems to be a requirement.
21:02:09 <tusho> fizzie: No.
21:02:11 <tusho> It's just a robot.
21:02:11 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p315114666.txt
21:02:19 <tusho> Brainfuck is hard to do short text generation in, though.
21:02:22 <tusho> So it makes it into a bot.
21:02:27 <tusho> So that the code is shorter.
21:02:28 <tusho> oklopol: nifty
21:02:33 <oklopol> fizzie: yes, a bot is something that connects, joins, pongs, and runs brainfuck.
21:02:44 <oklopol> and possibly something more
21:02:53 <fizzie> My fungot doesn't join unless I "^raw JOIN #esoteric" it.
21:03:05 <oklopol> well raw can be substituted for that i guess
21:03:15 <tusho> :&%#bf ,[.,]!hi
21:03:18 -!- stackoverbotter has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:03:22 <tusho> :D
21:03:30 <oklopol> :D
21:03:44 <oklopol> , doesn't work i think
21:03:48 <oklopol> hmm
21:04:06 <oklopol> actually disabling it, while making it mandatory to have input, is kinda... cool
21:04:44 -!- stackoverbotter has joined.
21:04:44 <stackoverbotter> lolz
21:04:47 <oklopol> he's back!
21:04:48 <tusho> :&%#bf ,[.,]!hi
21:04:49 <stackoverbotter> usho!n=tusho@91.105.80.203 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::&%#bf ,[.,]!hi
21:04:54 <oklopol> :D
21:04:56 <oklopol> &%#bf ,[.,]!!!hi
21:04:56 <stackoverbotter> hi
21:05:03 <tusho> hahahaha what
21:05:04 <tusho> :D
21:05:06 <oklopol> !!! because it was shorter to write
21:05:11 <tusho> oklopol: wut?
21:05:26 <oklopol> !!! was shorter to code than !, because ! is in the identor
21:05:26 <dogface> &%#bf ,[.,]!!!hi
21:05:26 <stackoverbotter> hi
21:05:30 <dogface> :&%#bf ,[.,]!!!hi
21:05:30 <stackoverbotter> hi
21:05:45 <tusho> :&%#bf +[]
21:05:47 <dogface> &%#bf ,[.,]!hi
21:05:47 -!- stackoverbotter has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:05:50 <oklopol> :D
21:05:54 <tusho> lol
21:05:56 * dogface presses tusho
21:06:03 <oklopol> you have to be careful around it ;)
21:06:07 <oklopol> or
21:06:10 <oklopol> i could fix it a bit
21:06:12 <tusho> oklopol: i should write a bot in haskell
21:06:18 <oklopol> it's just i don't really have an ide for python
21:06:19 <tusho> so that I can claim that writing a purely functional bot is trivil
21:06:21 <tusho> *trivial
21:06:21 <tusho> :P
21:06:23 <oklopol> well i have
21:06:30 <oklopol> but it sucks for something like that
21:06:32 <oklopol> wonder why.
21:06:38 -!- stackoverbotter has joined.
21:06:38 <stackoverbotter> lolz
21:06:43 <oklopol> stop killing it, i wanna see the stack overflow :P
21:07:15 <tusho> stackoverbotter: stack
21:07:15 <stackoverbotter> lolz
21:07:17 <tusho> hn
21:07:18 <tusho> oklopol
21:07:21 <tusho> bring it to #esoteric-blah
21:07:39 <oklopol> tusho: it's really just hard because there's no closures, and my way to code is first to write, then to debug.
21:07:52 <tusho> oklopol: python has closures..
21:07:55 <tusho> its lambdas are closures
21:08:00 <tusho> it doesnt have statements in lambdas though
21:08:02 <tusho> just expressions
21:08:04 <tusho> now #esoteric-blah
21:08:06 <oklopol> while this should clearly be done by first writing it in pieces, then copypasting
21:08:10 <oklopol> err well
21:08:11 <oklopol> i mean
21:08:30 <oklopol> hmm, actually.
21:09:00 <oklopol> i meant you cannot do stuff like lambda a:lambda b:a, but you definitely can, at least that exact thinmg
21:09:01 <oklopol> *thing
21:09:27 <tusho> #esoteric-blah
21:09:35 <oklopol> well anyway, that's one of the things that are not allowed for purely functional okopython
21:09:38 <oklopol> sure
21:09:40 -!- stackoverbotter has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:09:46 <oklopol> hmm
21:09:50 <oklopol> i could just have used bf for tat
21:09:51 <oklopol> *that
21:11:43 -!- oklopol has quit (Excess Flood).
21:11:49 <tusho> [21:11:15] <tusho> oklopol: make a bot that replies to "lolz" with "stackoverbotter: hi"
21:11:54 -!- oklopol has joined.
21:11:57 <tusho> [21:11:15] <tusho> oklopol: make a bot that replies to "lolz" with "stackoverbotter: hi"
21:12:04 <tusho> [21:11:15] <tusho> oklopol: make a bot that replies to "lolz" with "stackoverbotter: hi"
21:12:41 <oklopol> ya i saw that
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21:26:53 <fizzie> ^reload
21:26:54 <fungot> Reloaded.
21:27:17 <fizzie> No functional changes, just made it a bit easier to add commands that do replies.
21:28:38 <oklopol> ^ilikeapples
21:28:47 <fizzie> What should it do?
21:29:10 <oklopol> it should say "i like them too, but i liked them before they were cool"
21:29:13 <oklopol> hmm
21:29:15 <oklopol> or popular
21:29:22 <oklopol> perhaps cool, that makes less sense
21:29:53 <oklopol> EVERYONE PITCH IN, WE NEED TO MAKE FIZZIE'S BOT MASSIVE AND USELESS
21:30:41 <tusho> fizzie: add an addcmd function
21:30:46 <oklopol> hmm, can trds recall events from before it was loaded??
21:30:48 <tusho> *command
21:30:48 <oklopol> *-?
21:30:53 <tusho> ^addcmd cmdname brainfuckprogram
21:30:59 <tusho> fizzie: it gets its arguments as input
21:31:02 <oklopol> yeah, automatically allocates space for the code
21:31:04 <tusho> and output goes to the channel
21:31:04 <tusho> so
21:31:07 <oklopol> noooo it needs to be funge :)
21:31:09 <tusho> ^addcmd echo ,[.,]
21:31:11 <tusho> and you can then do
21:31:22 <tusho> ^echo hi
21:31:55 <oklopol> you could probably use a separate Z-level for each added command, and use threading to get around "safely" in the code
21:32:40 <fizzie> oklopol; It would need some more extensions. Plain concurrent-funge doesn't help, since when the "main IP" does the IRC read, it blocks all other IPs from executing.
21:32:57 <fizzie> Also with funge-space writing possibilities, I don't think it's very easy to do it safely.
21:33:26 <oklopol> well true, perhaps there should be a safe-thread fingerprint
21:33:26 <MikeRiley> use a non blocking erad
21:33:45 <oklopol> MikeRiley: would probably require a considerable structural change
21:34:00 <MikeRiley> what are you trying to do???
21:34:14 <oklopol> MikeRiley: make his ircbot let you write befunge modules
21:34:16 <fizzie> I'd rather use some sort of scheme that doesn't mean running at full CPU utilization. This thing makes a horrible noise if you make it shift to the higher cpufreq levels.
21:34:53 <oklopol> perhaps give it less processor time
21:34:54 <MikeRiley> and i take it one ip may block on a read while others still need to be running??
21:35:12 <fizzie> Yes. I think there was some talk about a fingerprint that would help in this.
21:35:34 <oklopol> anyway i think my fingerprint will be for safe threads
21:35:37 <MikeRiley> well,,,SCKE gives you a way to see if a socket read would block or not...
21:35:45 <oklopol> in case one doesn't exist
21:36:00 <oklopol> because i decided i'd make a fingerprint, i think, a few days ago
21:36:17 <fizzie> Still not sure I'm comfortable with running code in the same interpreter as the IRC bot. It needs some more thinking first. The brainfuck-based command adding would be easier.
21:36:34 <oklopol> would it suffice to let the user specify what commands are safe to run?
21:36:42 <oklopol> and perhaps some additional limitations on p and g
21:36:47 <fizzie> Anyway, busy with other stuff now, can't really participate in the enlightening debate.
21:36:54 <oklopol> :)
21:54:52 <tusho> oklopol:
21:54:55 <tusho> *IRC> unparse $ Prefixed (UserPrefix "tusho" "n=tusho" "foobar") (PRIVMSG (Channel "#esoteric") "Hello, world!") ":tusho!n=tusho@foobar PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, world!"
21:54:57 <tusho> discuss
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21:57:53 <oklopol> tusho: that looks like a good star
21:57:56 <oklopol> *start
21:58:03 <tusho> yes
21:58:10 <tusho> unfortunately I have to specialcase every parser
21:58:15 <tusho> as I can't dynamically get PRIVMSG, etc
21:58:18 <tusho> I might just use Network.IRC
21:58:23 <tusho> even though using strings for command names is less cool
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22:34:29 <tusho> oklopol: rate the okoness of this code: http://hpaste.org/9693#a1
22:34:43 <tusho> it echoes all messages in the channels it's in, or that it's /msg'd
22:34:50 <fizzie> fungot would turn ":tusho!n=tusho@foobar PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, world!" to funge-space stored cells so that (0,4) = 1 (indicating that there was a prefix), (1-x,4) = "tusho!n=tusho@foobar\0", (0,5) = 2 (number of arguments), (1-x,5) = "PRIVMSG\0", (0-x,6) = "#esoteric\0", (0-x,7) = "Hello, world!\0".
22:35:53 <fizzie> If you manage to get an IRC message with >100 arguments, it starts to overwrite code with them, actually. The spec promises that there are always <=15 arguments, but an evil IRC server could do the nasty.
22:36:03 <fizzie> (And going away again.)
22:38:33 <oklopol> tusho: it looks a quite oko, and very weird
22:38:37 <oklopol> *-a
22:38:42 <tusho> oklopol: but readable, right?
22:38:53 <tusho> i think it's pretty easy to comprehend
22:38:54 <oklopol> somewhat, i'm not sure what arg does
22:39:10 <tusho> oklopol: arg takes a function and passes the next argument of the command to it
22:39:36 <oklopol> <|> ?
22:39:45 <tusho> oklopol: part of Control.Alternate
22:39:49 <tusho> basically, "if this fails, try this"
22:39:55 <oklopol> figured
22:39:58 <oklopol> well guessed
22:40:16 <oklopol> figured would imply i asked for fun
22:40:51 <oklopol> yeah that's readable
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22:46:35 <tusho> oklopol: readable oko? :O
22:47:54 <oklopol> :P
22:47:55 <oklopol> sure
22:48:07 <oklopol> oerjan: nice to see you, we're on cleaner topics today
22:48:17 <oklopol> (for the most part)
22:49:34 <oerjan> whew
22:50:09 <fizzie> I wouldn't call my befunge stuff "clean", but on the other hand we're not particularly "on it" either.
22:55:43 <oklopol> well i wouldn't call my python bot that clean either, and i don't think we've been on anything else for a while
22:56:11 <oklopol> well gender issues, but that was very clean
22:56:57 <oerjan> optbot!
22:56:57 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you have to *tell* me the issue before I can solve it, unless you want me to make shit up..
22:57:28 <oerjan> hey, that's relevant! maybe.
22:57:46 <oklopol> optbot: the issue was gender, if i understand your question
22:57:46 <optbot> oklopol: and a dot a bit above the vertical line
22:57:56 <oklopol> and i don't think you can really solve it :D
22:58:29 <oklopol> optbot: that definitely has nothing to do with anything
22:58:29 <optbot> oklopol: Once before, Google cut back my site from 89,000,000 to
22:58:37 <oklopol> to what, optbot?
22:58:37 <optbot> oklopol: ???
22:58:48 <oklopol> err, to what, optbot? wasn't that clear enough
22:58:49 <optbot> oklopol: i mean open it
22:59:05 <oklopol> right they opened it, scrambled its brain, and usercount dropped?
22:59:22 <oklopol> damn, i forgot he needs to hear his name all the time.
22:59:28 <oklopol> what a self-centered bastard
22:59:31 <dogface> optbot optbot optbot.
22:59:31 <optbot> dogface: ouch
22:59:35 <oerjan> mmm, scrambled brains...
22:59:39 <dogface> Sorry, optbot.
22:59:40 <optbot> dogface: Dunno.
23:00:27 <dogface> optbot: Hello. I am dogface. How can I help you?
23:00:27 <optbot> dogface: uhm chose 3 of them
23:00:44 <dogface> optbot: Please go on.
23:00:44 <optbot> dogface: :) bye
23:01:07 <dogface> optbot: You are sure?
23:01:07 <optbot> dogface: binary tree
23:01:19 <dogface> optbot: Please go on.
23:01:19 <optbot> dogface: at the same time
23:01:24 <oerjan> trinary bee
23:01:29 <oklopol> optbot: how does that make you feel?
23:01:29 <optbot> oklopol: CamelCase is very lame though :P
23:01:34 <dogface> optbot: What resemblance do you see?
23:01:34 <optbot> dogface: will work
23:01:50 <dogface> optbot: Please go on.
23:01:50 <optbot> dogface: okay
23:01:51 <oklopol> optbot: what's a trinary bee?
23:01:52 <optbot> oklopol: its so cheesy XD
23:02:02 <oklopol> :O
23:02:05 <dogface> optbot: Please go on.
23:02:05 <optbot> dogface: I noticed that English has a missing grammar construct.
23:02:19 <dogface> Hey, I think I said that.
23:02:29 <dogface> optbot: Can you elaborate on that?
23:02:30 <oerjan> wow, google corrects it to ternary bee, which has one hit
23:02:30 <optbot> dogface: brainfuck
23:02:47 <dogface> optbot: Please go on.
23:02:47 <optbot> dogface: bye
23:02:49 <oklopol> :D
23:02:57 <dogface> optbot: Please go on.
23:02:57 <optbot> dogface: I thought that C did no abstraction on that. . .
23:03:04 <oklopol> english needs more brainfuck, we can all agree on that!
23:03:15 <dogface> optbot: Can you elaborate on that?
23:03:16 <optbot> dogface: I don't know if lament is part of the committee, or just waiting for a coup d'etat.
23:03:33 <dogface> optbot: Do you wish that lament is part of the committee or just waiting for a coup detat?
23:03:33 <optbot> dogface: ftr
23:03:45 <dogface> Please go on...
23:12:08 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: true?
23:12:08 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: some water
23:12:14 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: false?
23:12:15 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: same thing.
23:13:00 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: sure?
23:13:00 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: * Pepperoni wonders how a Pez Pizza would taste.
23:14:08 <oerjan> optbot: what does Pez Pizza wonder?
23:14:08 <optbot> oerjan: yes... in some way or another...
23:18:01 <oklopol> heh, for a second i thought KingOfKarlsruhe and oerjan were having the weirdest conversation ever
23:18:37 <KingOfKarlsruhe> hehe
23:18:42 <tusho> ooh
23:18:46 <tusho> let's all talk like optbot for a bit
23:18:46 <optbot> tusho: tell me
23:18:51 <tusho> (without the mandatory name addressing)
23:19:25 <oklopol> tusho: too hard
23:19:53 <tusho> oklopol: i don't think it'd work unless you had a good algorithm
23:21:34 <oklopol> actually dancing links is not that efficient for that
23:23:57 <tusho> oklopol: wtf???
23:24:29 <oklopol> it's giving the same error still
23:25:53 <tusho> *Main> decodeAndHandle "PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi\r\n"
23:25:53 <tusho> [Message Nothing "PRIVMSG" ["#esoteric","hi"]]
23:25:55 <tusho> OHHHH YEAH
23:26:04 <tusho> nice, readable, working code!
23:27:53 <oklopol> what's that Nothing there?
23:27:58 <tusho> oklopol: no message prefix
23:28:04 <oklopol> ya figured
23:28:10 <oklopol> and once again, guessed is better
23:28:16 <tusho> *Main> decodeAndHandle ":tusho!n=tusho@serv PRIVMSG a :hi\r\n"
23:28:17 <tusho> [Message Nothing "PRIVMSG" ["tusho","hi"]]
23:28:20 <tusho> aaaand bot messages work too!
23:28:24 <tusho> all I have to do now is plug it into the network
23:28:31 <oklopol> also why the fuck do i need to tell people i would've guessed right :P
23:28:49 <oklopol> yayeee
23:30:20 <fungot> Should I do that "^bfcmd echo ,[.,] after which ^echo foo is processed as ^bf ,[.,]!foo" thing?
23:30:54 <fungot> I don't feel like puzzling the *funge execution stuff out just yet.
23:30:57 <oklopol> fungot: you can't, bots can't code
23:31:11 <fungot> Well, should I have fizzie do that?
23:31:18 <oklopol> fungot: yes
23:31:39 <fizzie> Well, it could be the fun, and provide some much-needed interactivimotity.
23:31:56 <oklopol> can you elaborate on interactivimotity
23:32:10 <fizzie> Getting you people to use fungot for something.
23:34:14 <tusho> yes fizzie
23:34:15 <tusho> do it
23:34:19 <tusho> hmm
23:34:27 <tusho> fizzie: it'd be nice to be able to do it as a uri
23:34:39 <tusho> ^bfcmduri echo http://foo.com/my_underload_interp
23:34:43 <tusho> err
23:34:45 <tusho> s/echo/ul/
23:36:56 <fizzie> Well, I may add that support at some point. I wonder how good RC/Funge-98 is with fungespace resource usage, though, if I allocate a single line of tens of thousands of cells (not long for a brainfuck program, I guess).
23:38:17 <tusho> oklopol: http://hpaste.org/9694
23:38:18 <tusho> my irc bot so far
23:38:21 <tusho> I just need to add networkability
23:38:23 <tusho> and tada
23:39:11 <tusho> oklopol: think it's readable
23:39:12 <tusho> and okoy
23:43:10 <oklopol> tusho: it's readable, less weird than your original
23:43:17 <oklopol> i'm not sure about its okoness
23:43:19 <tusho> less weird? howso? :P
23:43:23 <tusho> it's not all that different
23:43:36 <oklopol> but it has more stuff, so the weird doesn't stand out!
23:43:48 <oklopol> also it wasn't that weird after i knew what stuff meant, ofc.
23:44:25 <tusho> oklopol: i think it's kind of okoy in that it's kind of a bizzare model (the hugely nested lambda thing) that allows you to write really short, but comprehendable code
23:45:19 <oklopol> yarrrrr
23:51:25 <fizzie> Huh, RC/Funge-98 segfaulted.
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2008-08-17:

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00:24:22 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf ++[->+++++<]>[->++++++++++<]>+++.+++++++.[-]<++++++[->+++++++++<]>++.
00:24:23 <fungot> gn8
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00:34:01 <oklopol> o
00:35:22 <psygnisfive> k
00:40:18 <fizzie> Well, I added command registration and storage support, but the actual execution is still missing.
00:40:26 <fizzie> ^reload
00:40:26 <fungot> Reloaded.
00:40:36 <fizzie> ^bfcmd
00:40:40 <fizzie> ...
00:40:50 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:41:13 <fizzie> Oh, right, I forgot: it needed to have one memory cell initialized to zero. Should've remembered before reloading.
00:41:22 -!- fungot has joined.
00:41:26 <fizzie> ^bfcmd
00:41:26 <fungot> Registered:
00:41:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | >>>a<<< would lift up from an even deeper list, but it cannot be done here, because we don't see the surrounding program.
00:41:35 <fizzie> ^bfcmd echo ,[.,]
00:41:38 <fizzie> ^bfcmd
00:41:38 <fungot> Registered: echo
00:41:52 <fizzie> Now it just needs to actually execute that stuff.
00:42:40 <oklopol> fungot: btw is the command for making fizzie code just for you or can anyone use it?
00:43:04 <oklopol> if it's public, i want
00:43:42 <psygnisfive> oklopol, in a bit we shall talk about the experiment. :D
00:44:05 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i was afraid of that, i'm actually going to sleep soon :P
00:44:11 <psygnisfive> ok :p
00:44:29 <oklopol> and i don't mean that as in "i was afraid you'd say that, i need to go now!"
00:44:41 <psygnisfive> ;)
00:44:51 <oklopol> just that i've had a very pointless day, so i could've dedicated a part of it easily
00:44:52 <psygnisfive> gee look at the time gotta run!
00:44:53 <psygnisfive> :p
00:45:09 <fungot> I think the command "λdoit [what to code]" should have no access restrictions, but often it just doesn't seem to work right no matter how many times I repeat it.
00:53:05 <oklopol> i will prolly read the rest of the study guide and go to sleep, so in like ten hours
00:54:01 <oklopol> i wonder if i'm too tired to read
00:54:12 <oklopol> been on this for like 2 hours, i'm on page 15 :D
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06:03:14 * GreaseMonkey has an idea!
06:03:40 <GreaseMonkey> cpressey made a brainfuck interpreter which apparently has every feature he could shove into it
06:03:43 <GreaseMonkey> .
06:04:19 <GreaseMonkey> perhaps we could make one which is just so stupidly overpolished (hardcore 3D animations) that it looks pathetic
06:04:27 <GreaseMonkey> sound like a cunning plan?
06:41:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Hmmmmmmmm.
06:56:27 <adu> GreaseMonkey: i like it
06:56:49 <adu> GreaseMonkey: what language are you going to implement it in?
06:57:05 <GreaseMonkey> adu: i don't know if i'll ever implement it, but the idea's there
06:57:12 <GreaseMonkey> if you want to implement it, then go for it
06:57:23 <adu> i already tried about 5 years ago
06:57:28 <GreaseMonkey> right now I'm trying to extend WireWorld into a massive beast
06:58:10 <GreaseMonkey> and THAT is being done in ALPACA.
07:01:08 <GreaseMonkey> currently i have: 3 types of wire sets (1/2 neighbour, 1 neighbour, 2 neighbour), ROM, capacitors, flash memory
07:01:19 <GreaseMonkey> although ROM is resettable
07:02:31 * GreaseMonkey noticed something cool about ROM...
07:02:42 <GreaseMonkey> (in this thing i'm making)
07:02:49 <GreaseMonkey> you can use ROM to create a diode
07:03:17 <GreaseMonkey> hmm... i could try making a bridge :D
07:09:43 <GreaseMonkey> done ;D
07:11:46 <GreaseMonkey> afk.
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07:42:10 <asiekierka> Hello.
07:47:38 <asiekierka> i may do a Screebles Game
07:47:53 <asiekierka> Yes, a game based on a doodly website with no point.
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09:05:00 <asiekierka> optbot...!
09:05:00 <optbot> asiekierka: i would sleep better at night knowing it was the provably shortest program
09:05:04 <asiekierka> optbot!
09:05:04 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | (there we go. I used 3 different linguistic sources in a single sentence!).
09:07:37 <GreaseMonkey> asiekierka: my advice for your screebles is to make sure that the writing is VERY readable.
09:07:55 <GreaseMonkey> e.g. in #21- Statu`d!
09:09:20 <GreaseMonkey> otherwise, i'm loling.
09:12:55 <GreaseMonkey> "Screebles: Because only I know BF." "No, I'm the only one who knows BF!" "No, that's ME!" "No, I *AM* BF!"
09:14:47 <asiekierka> hey
09:14:49 <asiekierka> good comic idea
09:15:11 <GreaseMonkey> ;D
09:15:27 <asiekierka> You will get credits
09:15:29 <asiekierka> but it's a good one
09:15:30 <GreaseMonkey> also, you should have a look at WireWorld
09:15:33 <GreaseMonkey> thx
09:15:34 <asiekierka> I did
09:15:37 <asiekierka> Didn't you see WireWorld DS
09:15:38 <asiekierka> :P
09:15:42 <GreaseMonkey> http://pages.prodigy.net/nylesheise/wireworld.html
09:15:45 <asiekierka> my implementation of WireWorld for the NDS
09:15:47 <asiekierka> xD
09:15:48 <GreaseMonkey> nice
09:16:02 <asiekierka> So i did
09:16:05 <GreaseMonkey> someone needs to implement wireworld in wireworld some time
09:16:16 <asiekierka> What about WireWorld in a RISC in WireWorld
09:16:41 <GreaseMonkey> possibly
09:16:46 <asiekierka> or no!
09:16:47 <GreaseMonkey> though 64 bytes of memory is a little low :/
09:16:56 <asiekierka> WireWorld in a RISC in WireWorld in a RISC in WireWorld!
09:17:33 <GreaseMonkey> i need to find a really good wireworld GUI which doesn't randomly drop information e.g. not MCell
09:17:41 <GreaseMonkey> and no, I do not have a DS.
09:17:42 <GreaseMonkey> :/
09:17:48 <asiekierka> WireWorld DS, but it's size is limited
09:17:53 <asiekierka> to 160x160 or something
09:17:54 <asiekierka> :P
09:18:13 <GreaseMonkey> probably not enough for the wireworld computer then.
09:18:19 <asiekierka> Yeah
09:18:28 <asiekierka> But the source code is availble online
09:18:43 <asiekierka> And modifying it to support any resolution is modifying some defines and the scrolling algorithm.
09:18:48 <asiekierka> I think.
09:18:55 <GreaseMonkey> ok.
09:19:27 <asiekierka> Also, for my birthday, i'd SO like to have two cakes.
09:19:42 <GreaseMonkey> that would rock.
09:19:45 <asiekierka> Why? You know, one will have a blue portal on it, and the other an orange portal.
09:19:53 <asiekierka> Yay.
09:20:01 <GreaseMonkey> heh
09:20:10 <GreaseMonkey> stick one on the roof and the other on the floor
09:20:14 <asiekierka> LOL
09:20:38 <asiekierka> Or make a lotta cookies
09:20:45 <asiekierka> Each having a different BF letter
09:20:48 <asiekierka> like, 130 of them
09:21:08 <asiekierka> And make the letters so the cookies can be combined to make a Hello, World! program
09:21:15 <asiekierka> Yay for Hello BF Cookie World
09:21:20 <GreaseMonkey> heh
09:21:38 <asiekierka> What about the candles? They'll be in the portals, and only on one cake
09:21:43 <GreaseMonkey> have you ever used POV-Ray?
09:21:44 <asiekierka> The other will have them...
09:21:48 <asiekierka> Upside down.
09:22:16 <asiekierka> Not really. I can't do 3D graphics.
09:22:16 <asiekierka> Why? You wanted me to do the cakes in POV-Ray?
09:22:36 <GreaseMonkey> that or the cookies
09:22:46 <asiekierka> Yeah right.
09:22:51 <GreaseMonkey> i'm generally crap with graphics but i'm not too bad with pov-ray
09:22:54 <asiekierka> Give me a good POV-Ray tutorial then.
09:23:11 <asiekierka> and where to get PWN-Ray
09:23:13 <GreaseMonkey> if you want to though, you could build a BF interpreter in POV-ray :D
09:23:22 <asiekierka> Haha
09:23:29 <GreaseMonkey> erm, there's the pov-ray tutorial
09:23:34 <asiekierka> What about a POV-ray interpreter in BF?
09:23:47 <GreaseMonkey> that would make someone puke
09:23:59 <asiekierka> It'll output to a BMP file
09:24:01 <GreaseMonkey> also, if i'm to EVER attempt something like that, it'd be in befunge, not bf
09:24:07 <asiekierka> |}{}{}{|
09:24:17 <asiekierka> Also, i'd rather do it in Befunge too.
09:24:26 <GreaseMonkey> befunge is way nicer
09:24:27 <asiekierka> And maybe make a fingerprint: BMPF
09:24:34 <asiekierka> support for BMP Files
09:24:41 <GreaseMonkey> yay for funge-98 fingerprints.
09:25:06 <asiekierka> I'm thinking about making a fork of BF
09:25:16 <asiekierka> called BrainPhics
09:25:23 <asiekierka> BF with support for graphical outpu
09:25:23 <asiekierka> t
09:25:44 <asiekierka> It'll have 3 new commands
09:25:49 <GreaseMonkey> there's many of them just because BF is so time-intensive and can be quite limited. i did one called BrainSecks and implemented it into a bot.
09:26:02 <asiekierka> ; : | i think
09:26:27 <asiekierka> ; - if the cell is zero, set it to the current X position, otherwise set it to the Y position
09:26:28 <GreaseMonkey> if you're doing a fork, i advice you to add these, too:
09:26:35 <GreaseMonkey> { } = while-zero loop
09:26:43 <GreaseMonkey> ( ) = if nonzero, then execute
09:26:51 <asiekierka> Why?
09:27:01 <asiekierka> This wouldn't be BF anymore :(
09:27:01 <GreaseMonkey> makes it SO much easier
09:27:08 <GreaseMonkey> k.
09:27:30 <asiekierka> You can do both loops in BF
09:27:39 <asiekierka> The while-zero loop algorithm is on the wiki
09:27:47 <asiekierka> the nonzero one-execution loop can be done with a flag
09:27:51 <asiekierka> as in, a temp cell
09:27:56 <asiekierka> Haha.
09:28:34 <asiekierka> You can also do this with some... BF macro support
09:28:35 <asiekierka> :P
09:29:00 <GreaseMonkey> BF macros sound very useful
09:29:12 <asiekierka> Yeah
09:29:13 <asiekierka> as in
09:29:26 <asiekierka> instead of writing (put a kilobyte of an useful function here)
09:29:28 <asiekierka> you write #func1
09:29:30 <asiekierka> or something
09:29:32 <asiekierka> Then
09:29:35 <asiekierka> you compile the code
09:29:43 <asiekierka> and #func1 turns backyback to the codeycode
09:30:44 <GreaseMonkey> btw, what's the lowest number of cycles *you* can use with wireworld?
09:30:50 <GreaseMonkey> i made a 4-cycle XOR once
09:31:01 <GreaseMonkey> without using clocks
09:31:22 <asiekierka> 3 AFAIK
09:31:32 <asiekierka> #-=#-=#-=
09:31:38 <asiekierka> = wire - tail # spark
09:31:44 <asiekierka> You can't do less than 3.
09:32:29 <asiekierka> You can use. What about me?
09:32:31 <asiekierka> as in me?
09:32:35 <asiekierka> I don't know.
09:32:40 <asiekierka> I didn't really do anything in BF.
09:32:43 <asiekierka> WireWorld*.
09:32:51 <GreaseMonkey> k.
09:33:30 <fizzie> ^reload
09:33:31 <fungot> Reloaded.
09:33:32 <fizzie> ^bfcmd
09:33:32 <fungot> Registered: echo
09:33:34 <fizzie> ^echo foo
09:33:35 <fungot> foo
09:35:28 <fizzie> ^bfcmd rev >,[>,]<[.<]
09:35:30 <fizzie> ^bfcmd
09:35:30 <fungot> Registered: echo rev
09:35:37 <fizzie> ^bfcmd rev testing, testing.
09:35:43 <fizzie> Nngh.
09:35:45 <fizzie> ^rev testing, testing.
09:35:45 <fungot> .gnitset ,gnitset
09:35:47 <asiekierka> Yay
09:35:53 <asiekierka> You have BF macros!
09:36:09 <fizzie> Now there's two "rev" commands, the latter one of which does nothing. Fortunately the earlier-defined match first.
09:36:13 <fizzie> ^bfcmd
09:36:13 <fungot> Registered: echo rev rev
09:36:20 <GreaseMonkey> yecch.
09:36:35 <fizzie> I should at some point add "if already defined, override the old one" thing.
09:36:49 <fizzie> I wonder if I have free space at that point of the code.
09:39:04 <fizzie> Ah, there's plenty: it happens to be on the last row of that particular blob of code.
09:40:37 <GreaseMonkey> do you have an ESOX-based bot by any chance?
09:41:02 <fizzie> No, fungot is just plain old Funge-98 with the SOCK and STRN fingerprints.
09:42:08 <GreaseMonkey> nice!
09:42:22 <GreaseMonkey> which interpreter?
09:42:22 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt (missing the loader, but I guess you don't want to run it)
09:42:42 <fizzie> RC-Funge/98. cfunge didn't implement SOCK yet, and I don't have the D compilers for CCBI.
09:43:17 <GreaseMonkey> k.
09:44:25 <GreaseMonkey> i'm guessing you'd beat the crap out of me if I did a funge shellcode exploit, right?
09:44:37 <GreaseMonkey> actually... that would probably be a first...
09:45:07 <fizzie> Maybe you can wait for a few days so that I can add a chroot/setuid-priviledge-dropping patch to RC-Funge/98. :p
09:45:34 <fizzie> Although I'm hoping there are no cases where it'll end up running any user-defined code. Could be bugs, of course.
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09:49:15 <GreaseMonkey> k.
09:52:51 <fizzie> ^reload
09:52:51 <fungot> Reloaded.
09:52:53 <fizzie> ^bfcmd
09:52:53 <fungot> Registered: echo rev rev
09:53:03 <fizzie> Maybe I can reset those by sticking a zero at a suitable place
09:53:10 <fizzie> ^code 002aaa***p
09:53:12 <fizzie> ^bfcmd
09:53:12 <fungot> Registered:
09:53:14 <fizzie> Yay.
09:54:08 <fizzie> (^code is again restricted to me, since it's pretty unsafe; it just runs a single line of Befunge code inside the interpreter with no protection.)
09:57:06 <fizzie> ^bfcmd
09:57:06 <fungot> Registered: echo rev
09:57:20 <fizzie> Added those two back. I think that's enough Befunge before breakfast.
10:00:13 <GreaseMonkey> hmm... what if you were to stick in a ^ or v in a ^code argument?
10:04:04 <fizzie> It would break horribly.
10:04:11 <fizzie> As would a @.
10:04:35 <fizzie> The command was intended for those "I need to change the Funge-space state so that a ^reload can work" occasions.
10:04:47 <GreaseMonkey> k.
10:05:29 <GreaseMonkey> hmm.. a VIRT fingerprint would be a good one, allowing a virtual funge machine stuck inside a small box
10:05:45 <GreaseMonkey> and also custom I/O
10:11:21 <fizzie> ^code 0ad"!dlrow ,olleH: ciretose# GSMVIRP"08P0898+2*21gW$
10:11:21 <fungot> Hello, world!
10:11:27 <fizzie> Heh, felt like experimenting.
10:11:51 <GreaseMonkey> anyways, i'm off to bed
10:11:53 <GreaseMonkey> gnight
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10:56:10 <asiekierka> ^code
10:56:30 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd
10:56:31 <fungot> Registered: echo rev
10:56:38 <asiekierka> ^rev olleh
10:56:39 <fungot> hello
10:56:45 <asiekierka> ^rev encoding is that cool!
10:56:46 <fungot> !looc taht si gnidocne
10:58:09 <asiekierka> ^rev ].+[.+ fb^
10:58:10 <fungot> ^bf +.[+.]
11:00:11 <fizzie> ^rev heh ver^
11:00:11 <fungot> ^rev heh
11:00:11 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:00:25 <fizzie> That would work nicely with two fungot instances.
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11:40:07 <Mony> hi
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12:41:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | what was that link to your Thue ski again?.
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13:34:42 <Mony> optbot...
13:34:42 <optbot> Mony: SON OF A BITCH JAVA
13:34:47 <Mony> lol :x
13:35:03 <tusho> hah
13:35:15 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: ++
13:35:15 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: OKOKOKOKOKOKOKOALITY
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13:39:46 <tusho> http://qdb.us/190128 "steven" has never coded in Brainfuck. Discuss.
13:40:16 <Mony> optbot, e=mc2
13:40:16 <optbot> Mony: #exec self.raw("PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foo!")
13:45:52 <oklopol> optbot: it's on my page :P
13:45:52 <optbot> oklopol: <3
13:46:38 <oklopol> i've seen that quote many times
13:46:43 <oklopol> i still don't get it
13:46:51 <oklopol> the punch line simply sucks
13:46:52 <oklopol> but
13:46:55 <oklopol> what the fuck is <astrange> you wrote a speech synthesizer in 8-bit fixed-point?
13:47:44 <oklopol> steven's was clearly a joke, he has no idea about brainfuck
13:48:01 <oklopol> hmm
13:48:08 <oklopol> wonder if i should make a ski thue! :P
13:48:20 <oklopol> that might be a bit harder
13:49:52 <tusho> heh, wow, astrange
13:49:55 <tusho> i've seen that name elsewhere
13:51:13 <oklopol> well it reminds me of lestrange from harry potter, but you probably haven't read such childish books
13:52:19 <tusho> i've read the harry potter books :p
13:52:27 <tusho> but I mean I've actually seen that name around
13:53:10 <oklopol> he's on freenode, so may have been somewhere
13:53:15 <oklopol> if it's the same guy
13:53:19 <tusho> yes, i think it is
13:53:55 <oklopol> alexander strange, if that is actually his name, is so cool i wanna kill him and start just, you know, being him
13:54:13 <tusho> xD
13:54:25 <oklopol> :--)
13:54:26 <oklopol> well
13:54:33 <oklopol> i could just go with Oklopol Ominovorol
13:54:40 <oklopol> that would be just as awesome
13:54:54 <tusho> oklopol: it's lowercase, isn't it?
13:54:57 <tusho> oklopol ominovorol
13:54:59 <tusho> change your name to that
13:55:06 <oklopol> well yes, but i'm not sure if that's allowed
13:55:09 <tusho> i think so
13:55:13 <oklopol> the finnish law on names sucks ass
13:55:16 <tusho> ah
13:55:22 <tusho> well, if you do I'll change mine to just "tusho" :P
13:55:28 <oklopol> it's so vague even lawyers have really nothing to say on the subject
13:55:35 <tusho> ...and my IRC realname will be true!
13:55:48 <oklopol> for instance, it doesn't disallow numbers and special characters explicitly
13:56:06 <tusho> oklopol: change your nickname to the unicode rtl override character
13:56:09 <tusho> er
13:56:11 <tusho> s/nickname/name./
13:56:12 <oklopol> but those certainly can't be allowed, because you can't even have most names with finnish characters.
13:56:16 <tusho> s/name./name/
13:57:21 <tusho> oklopol: a name without a second name would totally fuck up computer systems
13:57:25 <tusho> i'd have to be tusho tusho
13:57:26 <tusho> or tu sho
13:57:34 <tusho> or tusho oooo
13:57:56 <oklopol> tusho NULL
13:58:01 <tusho> tusho \0
13:58:13 <tusho> {"t","u","s","h","o",0} {0}
13:58:45 <oklopol> hmm
13:59:03 <oklopol> also i think the finnish language actually requires names to be capitalized anyway, when used
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13:59:12 <oklopol> i don't know if you can override that
13:59:22 <tusho> ditto for english
13:59:26 <oklopol> it all is so vague and sucky.
13:59:28 <tusho> but if your name is tusho
13:59:30 <tusho> then it's tusho.
13:59:44 <oklopol> *is all
13:59:55 <oklopol> also why am i correcting even grammatical errors nowadaya
13:59:56 <oklopol> s
14:00:04 <oklopol> that simply makes no sense, as i make those deliberately
14:00:06 <oklopol> asdasdasd
14:00:10 <oklopol> rodea drinko ->
14:00:13 <oklopol> *rodeo
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15:35:06 <tusho> hmm
15:35:54 <tusho> anyone have a good algo for this:
15:36:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:36:09 <tusho> overview(source : array, length : integer)
15:36:34 <tusho> if length is more than the length of the source array, it returns an array of the length of the source array
15:36:34 <tusho> err
15:36:39 <tusho> if length is more than the length of the source array, it returns an array with the length of the source array
15:36:48 <tusho> otherwise, it returns an array of "length" length
15:37:00 <tusho> like
15:37:12 <tusho> overview([1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10],3) -> [1,5,10]
15:37:29 <tusho> overview([1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10],5) -> [1,3,4,7,9]
15:37:35 <tusho> that's the basic idea
15:37:36 <tusho> :D
15:37:39 <tusho> it's probably trivial
15:37:43 <tusho> and I'm missing it
15:52:34 <dogface> How come overview([1..10],3) isn't [1,5,9], or overview([1..10],5) isn't [1,3,5,7,10] or something?
15:53:25 <dogface> I think I know of a good algorithm to take however many elements, evenly spaced.
15:53:39 <tusho> Yes, however many elements evenly spaced.
15:55:15 <dogface> In the first one, you want 3/10. 1/2 is 0/1 then 1/1; 1/3 is 0/1 then 1/2; 1/4 is 0/1 then 1/3; 2/7 is 1/4 then 1/3; 3/10 is 2/7 then 1/3.
15:56:20 <dogface> If we say 0/1 is O and 1/1 is X, then 1/2 is OX, 1/3 is OOX, 1/4 is OOOX, 2/7 is OOOXOOX, and 3/10 is OOOXOOXOOX.
15:56:54 <dogface> The second one is just 1/2, which is OX, so you can repeat that five times to get OXOXOXOXOX.
15:58:30 <dogface> I have discovered a truly marvelous actual algorithm that does this, which the time before I have to go do something else is too small to contain. :-P
15:58:47 <dogface> You're smart.
16:03:44 -!- MikeRiley has joined.
16:09:04 <tusho> dogface: Wait ... wut
16:15:14 -!- MikeRiley has quit (" ").
16:16:49 <Deewiant> overview x n = o x (subtract 1 . ceiling $ ((/) `on` fromIntegral) (length x) n) where o [] _ = []; o (y:ys) m = y : o (drop m ys) m
16:16:53 <Deewiant> tusho: ^
16:17:05 <tusho> Deewiant: You are evil. :|
16:17:06 <Deewiant> seems to work, didn't test it much :-P
16:17:17 <Deewiant> why's that? :-P
16:17:26 <tusho> If I was using Haskell for this, sure. Or if I could actually comprehend that code, sure.
16:17:27 <tusho> :P
16:17:47 <Deewiant> meh, write it on more than one line and it should be semi-simple
16:36:21 <dogface> How dare you use . and $?
16:38:21 <dogface> What does on do?
16:38:43 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:38:56 <tusho> dogface: What's wrong with (.) and ($)?
16:38:59 <tusho> They're very idiomatic.
16:39:23 <dogface> They make things a little bit more complicated, sometimes.
16:39:32 <tusho> a $ b $ c d
16:39:35 <tusho> a (b (c d))
16:39:37 <tusho> I know which I prefer.
16:39:57 <dogface> I don't know which I prefer.
16:40:31 <oerjan> Cale prefers a . b $ c d iirc
16:40:58 <tusho> Cale is crazy.
16:40:59 <tusho> :D
16:42:55 <dogface> Deewiant: prove that that always returns the requested number of elements. :-P
16:43:14 <oerjan> on f g x y = f (g x) (g y)
16:43:42 <Deewiant> dogface: it doesn't, actually
16:43:55 <Deewiant> I tried using QuickCheck and it failed given [(),(),(),()] and 3
16:44:09 <Deewiant> but I can't be bothered to do anything about it :-P
16:44:28 <dogface> I'll write mine, then. And I'll do it in little bitty pieces.
16:44:55 <oerjan> little functions, in the program, little functions, made of ...
16:44:57 <Deewiant> oerjan: that's crap, a . b . c $ d is better :-)
16:45:16 <oerjan> Deewiant: possibly that's what Cale prefers
16:45:17 <Deewiant> but I'm going to eat now ->
16:45:38 <dogface> overview xs n = filter fst (zip (indic (length xs) n) xs)
16:45:44 <dogface> It looks like a cake! :-D
16:47:33 <dogface> indic len n = indic' len n 1 0 [False] 1 1 [True]
16:48:28 <dogface> indic' len n lenl nl low lenh nh high | (len, n) == (lenl, nl) = low
16:48:38 <dogface> indic' len n lenl nl low lenh nh high | (len, n) == (lenh, nh) = high
16:51:00 <oerjan> you don't need to repeat the part before |
16:51:31 <dogface> indic' len n lenl nl low lenh nh high = let (lenm, nm, mid) = (lenl + lenh, nl + nh, low + high) in if lenm * n > len * nm then indic' len n lenl nl low lenm nm mid else indic' len n lenm nm mid lenh nh high
16:51:52 <dogface> Do I still not need to repeat the part before |, now that the last pattern doesn't have a guard?
16:52:04 <oerjan> use otherwise as the guard
16:52:09 <dogface> Anyway, that's the end of it.
16:52:17 <dogface> I've been trying to prove that this is total for months.
16:56:17 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho|away.
16:56:37 <Deewiant> O_o, 8 parameters
16:56:43 <Deewiant> that can't be healthy
16:57:02 <dogface> More tuples would be nice.
16:58:34 <dogface> Such as this: indic' (len, n) (lenl, nl, low) (lenh, nh, high) = let (lenm, nm, mid) = (lenl + lenh, nl + nh, low + high) in if lenm * n > len * nm then indic' (len, n) (lenl, nl, low) (lenm, nm, mid) else indic' (len, n) (lenm, nm, mid) (lenh, nh, high)
16:59:10 <dogface> As-patterns could make it shorter.
16:59:38 <oerjan> also, some wheres.  you are not actually changing all the parameters in recursion
17:00:20 <dogface> If I remember correctly: indic' t@(len, n) l@(lenl, nl, low) h@(lenh, nh, high) = let m@(lenm, nm, mid) = (lenl + lenh, nl + nh, low + high) in if lenm * n > len * nm then indic' t l m else indic' t m h
17:00:32 <oerjan> so use a helper function that only has the parameters that change
17:00:55 <dogface> Yeah, that'd work.
17:02:15 <dogface> And perhaps I should be testing (lenm, nm) for equality rather than (lenl, nl) and (lenh, nh), but I don't know just how that would be done.
17:02:40 <dogface> Also, I realized this isn't total; fixies are required in the guards.
17:03:00 <oerjan> you know a set of guards can have a where clause in common?
17:03:11 <dogface> Yes, I do.
17:03:43 <oerjan> so you can define lenm, nm in that where clause perhaps
17:03:47 <dogface> Replace (len, n) == (lenl, nl) = low with len * nl == lenl * n = concat (replicate (len `div` lenl) low) and likewise for h, I think.
17:04:54 <dogface> I think this is what we call "spending five minutes writing the code and fifteen minutes making it look nicer". :-P
17:19:43 -!- asiekierka has joined.
17:19:45 <asiekierka> Hello
17:19:58 <asiekierka> dogface: How's your !@#$%^cking Screeble?
17:20:27 <dogface> It hasn't changed in the last... oh, 22 hours.
17:20:52 <asiekierka> You mean 21:30 hours
17:20:55 <asiekierka> AFAIK
17:20:57 <asiekierka> or 21:40
17:21:04 <asiekierka> Or maybe 22
17:21:06 <asiekierka> who cares
17:21:08 -!- Corun has joined.
17:21:08 <asiekierka> Also
17:21:19 <dogface> I guess I can scan it and throw it at you. Most of the handwritten text will be replaced with computery text, I'm sure.
17:21:28 <asiekierka> Ok
17:21:58 -!- AnMaster has joined.
17:21:58 <dogface> It's not all that awesome, really.
17:22:13 <asiekierka> I still have a comic idea for today
17:22:20 <asiekierka> It wasn't by me though
17:23:04 <dogface> I did make a couple significant changes from the mini-screeble.
17:23:05 <oerjan> 21:34:18.89540046465000... or thereabouts
17:23:18 <asiekierka> <GreaseMonkey> "Screebles: Because only I know BF." "No, I'm the only one who knows BF!" "No, that's ME!" "No, I *AM* BF!"
17:23:28 <asiekierka> Here's the #24 comic idea
17:24:52 <asiekierka> Yay, 656 kb of #esoteric logs.
17:33:51 <dogface> http://i34.tinypic.com/2rokyts.jpg
17:34:02 <dogface> Love and flowers and puppy happiness.
17:35:27 <asiekierka> And i'm sure you embedded a Braincopter program in it. No wait, it's JPG, you couldn't
17:38:03 -!- oerjan has quit ("And stick figures!").
17:38:52 <dogface> Of course I could. Everyone knows JPG doesn't actually do anything.
17:42:12 <asiekierka> Except if you LET IT
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17:53:22 <dogface> OOOOOOO, OOOOOOX, OOOXOOX, OOXOXOX, OXOXOXX, OXXOXXX, OXXXXXX, XXXXXXX.
17:53:26 * dogface parades
17:53:37 <Deewiant> that has to be overly complicated :-)
17:55:34 <dogface> What has to be overly complicated?
17:56:33 <Deewiant> that indic function or anything that uses it
17:57:59 <dogface> Things that use it wouldn't be overly complicated, it seems.
17:59:25 <Deewiant> what does it do?
18:01:33 <dogface> The function indic returns a list of True and False, as evenly spaced as possible.
18:02:05 <Deewiant> alright, hmm
18:11:58 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> Yay, 656 kb of #esoteric logs. <-- only?
18:12:06 <AnMaster> I'm quite sure it is a few MB for me
18:12:31 <AnMaster> 1.4MB log file
18:22:16 <fizzie> fis@sesefras:~/irclogs/freenode/#esoteric$ du -h
18:22:16 <fizzie> 34M     .
18:30:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I rotate to CDs every few months
18:30:44 <AnMaster> so the old ones are on some cd bziped up
18:31:38 <fizzie> Isn't that a bit inconvenient? I mean, do your day-to-day activities not involve several years old IRC logs?
18:31:40 -!- tusho|away has changed nick to tusho.
18:41:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, nop they don't
18:41:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Someone should write a wang tile esolang.
18:41:48 <AnMaster> optbot!
18:41:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | My *initial* implementation of PEBBLE was a hell of a lot simpler than PSOX. . ..
18:41:56 <pikhq> :D
18:42:03 <pikhq> MY QUOTE. :D
18:42:08 <AnMaster> the last one?
18:42:30 <pikhq> The current one.
18:42:34 <AnMaster> right
18:46:06 <tusho> damn, greasemonkey is back.
18:46:14 <tusho> :D
18:48:26 <dogface> Yelling at optbot causes it to change the topic?
18:48:27 <optbot> dogface: say you want b
18:48:39 <dogface> I want the old one back, then. :-)
18:48:41 <dogface> optbot!
18:48:42 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | "Windows System tray monitor has detected the you system tray is too full.  Click here to run the System Tray Cleanup Wizard."  :-D.
19:00:25 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr.
19:06:18 <asiekierka> back
19:06:19 <asiekierka> Woah
19:06:23 <asiekierka> I didn't make a screeble today!
19:06:24 <asiekierka> :O
19:06:40 <asiekierka> I must make one as soon as i finish eating!
19:06:41 <fizzie> ^echo Whoa!
19:06:41 <fungot> Whoa! Whoa!
19:06:51 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd
19:06:52 <fungot> Registered: echo
19:06:57 <fizzie> ^bfcmd echo
19:06:58 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>]
19:07:01 <fizzie> I tweaked it a bit.
19:07:34 <asiekierka> Can i add some commands of my own?
19:07:36 <asiekierka> as in
19:07:40 <asiekierka> what i found in my bf folder
19:08:11 <fizzie> There's the IRC length limit of ~500 usable message characters, so you can't add very long programs.
19:08:33 <asiekierka> :(
19:08:36 <asiekierka> So ROT13 is out
19:08:51 <pikhq> I suspect that IRC length limit is the result of programmers not wanting to make strings of arbitrary size.
19:08:58 <asiekierka> You know
19:08:59 <asiekierka> Fizzie
19:09:04 <tusho> Rot13 is not >500 characters, fizzie.
19:09:07 <asiekierka> I'd like you to implement something like "link"
19:09:08 <pikhq> Which is kinda a shame.
19:09:16 <asiekierka> which can link 2 parts of code
19:09:16 <asiekierka> as in
19:09:18 <tusho> pikhq: It's to avoid people sending fucking huge lines that kill things, too.
19:09:31 <pikhq> tusho: "Huge lines that kill things"?
19:09:33 <asiekierka> you write ^bfcmd app.1 {code part here}
19:09:41 <asiekierka> then you write ^bfcmd app.2 {second code part here}
19:09:46 <tusho> pikhq: Do you want your client to suddenly dump 500mb of line?
19:09:47 <asiekierka> And it stores them as combined 1 and 2
19:10:04 <pikhq> Fine, fine. So that's a bit much...
19:10:09 <pikhq> But come on: 500 chars?
19:10:13 <tusho> pikhq: In the 80s, remember.
19:10:29 <tusho> And IRC was only used for discussing things in real-time... so it wasn't much ofa problem
19:10:31 <asiekierka> So block .1 and .2 to only fizzie
19:10:51 <pikhq> Ah, yes. When people thought that gets was a good idea. "Who would use 100 characters in a line, anyways?"
19:10:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, does the bot optimize the bf programs?
19:11:01 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
19:11:02 <fungot> No.
19:11:05 <asiekierka> oh wait
19:11:12 <tusho> AnMaster: IT'S WRITTEN IN BEFUNGE
19:11:15 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd hello ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
19:11:15 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd
19:11:16 <fungot> Registered: echo lol hello
19:11:16 <tusho> what do you think?!
19:11:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you lack space for that, consider using SUBR fingerprint to jump somewhere else and then return
19:11:29 <AnMaster> tusho, and?
19:11:34 <asiekierka> ^hello
19:11:34 <fungot> Hello World!.
19:11:39 <tusho> AnMaster: why would he optimize
19:11:40 <asiekierka> ^lol
19:11:43 <tusho> he'd have to code an optimizer
19:11:43 <fungot>  ...out of time!
19:11:43 <tusho> in befunge
19:11:44 <fizzie> I already use SUBR for the ^code part, but it always feel so cheatingey.
19:11:47 <AnMaster> tusho, why not?
19:11:53 <asiekierka> about longlinesofcode
19:11:58 <asiekierka> There's "...out of time"
19:11:58 * tusho bashes AnMaster's head against a wall repeatedly
19:11:59 <AnMaster> ^help
19:12:05 <AnMaster> nop?
19:12:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, idea: add ^help
19:12:13 <AnMaster> or something
19:12:16 <AnMaster> ^commands
19:12:17 <AnMaster> ^list
19:12:19 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd fib >++++++++++>+>+[
19:12:19 <AnMaster> :/
19:12:19 <fizzie> The "No." there meant "there is no such command to display", since the command name was missing.
19:12:20 <asiekierka>     [+++++[>++++++++<-]>.<++++++[>--------<-]+<<<]>.>>[
19:12:20 <asiekierka>         [-]<[>+<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-
19:12:20 <asiekierka>             [>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<<<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>
19:12:20 <asiekierka>     ]<<<
19:12:20 <asiekierka> ]
19:12:21 <asiekierka> Great.
19:12:32 <fizzie> I can add ^help easily, though.
19:12:36 <tusho> [19:12:10] <AnMaster> fizzie, idea: add ^help
19:12:38 <tusho> AnMaster
19:12:43 <tusho> where do you get these revolutionary ideas from
19:12:48 <tusho> they amaze me
19:12:52 <AnMaster> tusho, from common sense
19:12:53 <tusho> with their uniqueness
19:12:55 <fizzie> Currently there's also a nasty bug that redefining a command makes it forget all commands after it in the list.
19:12:58 <fizzie> ^bfcmd
19:12:59 <fungot> Registered: echo lol hello fib
19:13:03 <fizzie> ^bfcmd echo ,[.,]
19:13:05 <fizzie> ^bfcmd
19:13:05 <fungot> Registered: echo
19:13:08 <tusho> AnMaster: #esoteric
19:13:10 <tusho> common sense
19:13:10 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd fib >++++++++++>+>+[[+++++[>++++++++<-]>.<++++++[>--------<-]+<<<]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<<<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<<<]
19:13:11 <tusho> = No.
19:13:13 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd
19:13:14 <fungot> Registered: echo fib
19:13:15 <asiekierka> ^fib
19:13:18 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597. ...out of time!
19:14:41 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd ascii .+[.+]
19:15:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, why does redefine overwrite the other ones?
19:15:11 <AnMaster> ^bfcmd
19:15:12 <fungot> Registered: echo fib ascii
19:15:27 <asiekierka> Yay, we have a lotta apps for BF now
19:15:39 <AnMaster> asiekierka, there are already a lot
19:15:48 <asiekierka> not in the bot
19:15:49 <AnMaster> ^bf .+[.+]
19:15:50 <fungot> ............................... !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~������������������������������������������������������������������������������� ...
19:15:50 <asiekierka> but*
19:16:04 <fizzie> ^reload
19:16:04 <fungot> Reloaded.
19:16:09 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd
19:16:09 <fungot> Registered: echo fib ascii
19:16:13 <asiekierka> Whew. :)
19:16:16 <fizzie> ^bfcmd echo maybe_I_fixed_the_redefinition_thing
19:16:18 <fizzie> ^bfcmd
19:16:18 <fungot> Registered: echo fib ascii
19:16:24 <fizzie> Seems so.
19:16:32 <asiekierka> ^echo Possibly.
19:16:40 <asiekierka> Uh
19:16:41 <tusho> fizzie, how does ^reload work?
19:16:41 <tusho> :P
19:16:44 <asiekierka> Yes you did
19:16:45 <fizzie> ^bfcmd echo >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>]
19:16:54 <AnMaster> ^echo foo
19:16:55 <fungot> foo foo
19:16:55 <asiekierka> ^echo ^echo
19:16:56 <fungot> ^echo ^echo
19:17:00 <asiekierka> :(
19:17:00 <AnMaster> err
19:17:06 <AnMaster> why does it say foo twice?
19:17:08 <AnMaster> ^bfcmd
19:17:09 <fungot> Registered: echo fib ascii
19:17:10 <tusho> AnMaster: what is an echo
19:17:10 <fizzie> My version of ^echo produces an echo.
19:17:10 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd cat ,[.,]
19:17:16 <AnMaster> ah true
19:17:20 <asiekierka> No wait
19:17:31 <AnMaster> tusho, echo as in "print" in shell was how I was thinking
19:17:32 <asiekierka> i must change my program to append a CAT at the beginning
19:17:35 <tusho> ^cat should output it in lolcat speak
19:17:35 <fungot> should output it in lolcat speak
19:17:40 <asiekierka> Yeah
19:17:45 <AnMaster> hm
19:17:48 <AnMaster> ^ascii abc
19:17:49 <fungot> ............................... !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~������������������������������������������������������������������������������� ...
19:17:54 <fizzie> Anyway, ^reload works by clearing most of the funge-space except the part at top used for storage, and then loading the program sources back in with 'i'.
19:17:57 <AnMaster> ah rigvht
19:17:59 <tusho> "LOLCAT SPEEK ... SHUD OUTPUT IN"
19:18:00 <AnMaster> right*
19:18:12 <dogface> BF has exactly three limitations: memory is not random-access, individual cells are not settable or testable, and the only flow control structure is a while loop.
19:18:13 <tusho> fizzie: cute
19:18:14 <tusho> and crazy
19:18:21 <AnMaster> tusho, I suggested it iirc
19:18:26 <fizzie> I think so, yes.
19:18:27 <asiekierka> Yeah
19:18:28 <dogface> ^bfcmd feline +[,.[-]+]
19:18:35 <dogface> ^feline I am invincible.
19:18:36 <fungot> I am invincible................................................................................................................................................................................................ ...
19:18:39 <pikhq> The last one isn't really a limitation.
19:18:42 <dogface> Wow.
19:18:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway do you use negative funge space for storage?
19:18:44 <asiekierka> but then it'd be LOLCAT
19:18:46 <tusho> I am invincible...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
19:18:49 <AnMaster> that would be another good idea
19:19:02 <pikhq> ^feline WTF?
19:19:03 <fungot> WTF?........................................................................................................................................................................................................... ...
19:19:17 <tusho> ^feline ^feline
19:19:19 <fungot> ^feline........................................................................................................................................................................................................ ...
19:19:22 <tusho> ^feline........................................................................................................................................................................................................ ...
19:19:28 <tusho> ^feline ........................................................................................................................................................................................................ ...
19:19:33 <tusho> Hm.
19:19:35 <dogface> So, every time you give it a command, it's a separate instance of the program, and when it tries to read from EOF, either 0 or -1 is given.
19:19:47 <dogface> ^BF +[.+]
19:19:52 <dogface> ^bf +[.+]
19:19:56 <dogface> Mreeep.
19:20:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about an interpreter for some other language than bf?
19:20:10 <fizzie> AnMaster; No (for negative space), since it's easier to write the addresses for 'get' when they're in the top 16 lines or so. Although the brainfuck interpreter could use negative space for that storage.
19:20:19 <dogface> ^bfcmd test ++++++++[.++++++++]
19:20:21 <dogface> ^test
19:20:23 <fizzie> Hey, tusho managed to break it.
19:20:27 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:20:31 <dogface> Oh.
19:20:35 <tusho> :
19:20:35 <tusho> D
19:20:37 <tusho> *:D
19:20:41 <asiekierka> ^bf echo2 ,[..,]
19:20:41 <asiekierka> ^echo2 THIS IS A REAL ECHO, MAN
19:20:41 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd echo2 ,[..,]
19:20:41 <asiekierka> ^echo2 THIS IS A REAL ECHO, MAN
19:20:41 <asiekierka> ^echo2 THIS IS A REAL ECHO, MAN
19:20:47 <AnMaster> asiekierka, it is not connected
19:20:48 <AnMaster> ....
19:21:10 <dogface> That's not an echo, that's a reverberation.
19:21:14 <fizzie> I'm not yet quite sure what broke it. The least message it saw was that "^feline.........." one.
19:21:25 <tusho> fizzie: Commands without spaces?
19:21:28 <tusho> large commands?
19:21:34 <tusho> After all, ^feline..........................(...) is pretty big
19:21:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, I got an idea for a fingerprint, NX
19:21:48 <AnMaster> :D
19:22:00 <AnMaster> would prevent buffer overflow in funges
19:22:12 <tusho> there should be an X fingerprint
19:22:13 <tusho> for X11!
19:22:14 <AnMaster> by being able to set areas of the funge space as "no execute" and "no write"
19:22:16 <AnMaster> tusho, ^
19:22:36 <tusho> 1"X"(...)
19:22:38 <AnMaster> I guess "no read" technically too, but I can't see the use of that
19:22:40 <tusho> hmm
19:22:41 <tusho> 0()
19:22:42 <tusho> :D
19:22:45 <AnMaster> tusho, see WIND
19:22:50 <AnMaster> for generic window management
19:22:57 <tusho> AnMaster: shut up, the empty fingerprint is interesting me now
19:22:58 <AnMaster> iirc that is it's name
19:22:59 <tusho> 0(...)
19:24:24 <AnMaster> tusho, that isn't defined yet afaik
19:24:33 <tusho> then I shall :D
19:24:40 <AnMaster> um
19:24:46 <AnMaster> I think Deewiant said he would do it
19:24:54 <AnMaster> so it would be bad style reusing that
19:24:58 <tusho> Fuck Deewiant. :P
19:25:01 <AnMaster> of course you should use URIs instead
19:25:05 * Deewiant kicks tusho
19:25:14 <AnMaster> tusho, you are too young for that
19:25:14 <Deewiant> I'll have none of that :-P
19:25:21 <fizzie> What the... the ^bfcmd thing doesn't work at all in the newly started bot. That was one impressive breakage.
19:25:27 <tusho> AnMaster: But I'm female, and therefore legal in Japan.
19:25:28 <tusho> QED.
19:25:37 <tusho> Deewiant: Aww. Here I was getting my plane tickets.
19:25:39 <AnMaster> tusho, err it is?? quite sure it isn't
19:25:47 <tusho> AnMaster: age of consent is 12 for girls in japan
19:25:53 <AnMaster> tusho, and for boys?
19:26:00 <tusho> AnMaster: i think like 16 :P
19:26:04 <AnMaster> [citation needed] for both of those
19:26:07 <tusho> or 18
19:26:13 <tusho> and tough, I forgot where I learned that
19:26:27 <tusho> ah
19:26:27 <tusho> hm
19:26:29 <tusho> no
19:26:46 <tusho> The National age of consent in Japan is 13, regardless of sexual orientation and/or gender, as specified by the Japanese Penal Code Articles 176 and 177. However, most prefectures have ordinances that prohibit "immoral sexual acts" with minors. The phrase "Immoral sexual acts" is not strictly defined. It is mainly used to prevent minors from engaging in quasi prostitution (e.g. Enjo kōsai). It is unc
19:26:56 <tusho> clear if the translated term "minors" refers to children (defined as those aged under 18) or to those who have not reached maturity (defined as those under 20). Also, some prefectures have a higher age of consent for same-gender sexual conduct, which is not consistent with the National legislation
19:27:25 <tusho> still, I'm 13 on the 22nd
19:27:28 <tusho> so I'm almost legal :P
19:27:37 <AnMaster> you are Brittish
19:27:41 <AnMaster> British*
19:27:50 <tusho> AnMaster: and thus incapable of going to japan
19:27:50 <tusho> right
19:27:52 <tusho> :P
19:28:14 <AnMaster> no, but it means it doesn't apply in this case are you are in UK currently I think
19:28:16 <fizzie> (Have some real-world things to do, but I will fix fungot later today. Or at least try.)
19:28:35 <tusho> AnMaster: this is why the Deewiant fucking would be in Japan. duh. :P
19:29:16 <pikhq> ... Tusho is 12???
19:29:29 <tusho> pikhq: Hmm.
19:29:33 <tusho> You're the last to know, apparently. :P
19:29:47 <pikhq> You kinda kick ass. ;)
19:29:55 <tusho> Was that a really contrived innuendo?
19:30:01 <pikhq> No.
19:30:05 <tusho> Darn. Wait, what
19:30:28 <pikhq> I mean that you knowing as much as you do by age 12 is, well, friggin' awesome. ;)
19:30:39 <tusho> The ;) smiley makes everything in to an innuendo/
19:30:41 <tusho> You should know that.
19:30:45 <pikhq> Lies.
19:45:06 -!- calamari has joined.
19:45:25 <fizzie> Oh, I think the tusho fungot-breakage was actually my ^bfcmd bug; I messed up the zero-termination there, so when ^feline was defined, it did not add the 0 properly. It didn't matter as long as all commands were recognizable, but with "^feline..." it just went on and on searching for that command.
19:45:38 -!- fungot has joined.
19:47:03 <tusho> ^bfcmd reverb ,[..,]
19:47:06 <tusho> ^reverb Hello world!
19:47:07 <fungot> HHeelllloo  wwoorrlldd!!
19:48:30 <fizzie> ^bfcmd
19:48:31 <fungot> Registered: reverb
19:48:47 <fizzie> ^bfcmd echo >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>]
19:48:54 <fizzie> ^echo Hello world!
19:48:55 <fungot> Hello world! Hello world!
19:49:05 <fizzie> ^bfcmd
19:49:05 <fungot> Registered: reverb echo
19:49:15 <fizzie> I think I'll continue the testing on the -blah.
19:49:22 <fizzie> That's what it's for, I guess.
19:56:07 <asiekierka> ^reverb Hello
19:56:08 <fungot> HHeelllloo
19:57:43 <asiekierka> ^code ><
19:57:46 <asiekierka> ^reverb Hello
19:57:46 <fungot> HHeelllloo
19:57:50 <asiekierka> Whew. :)
19:58:58 <asiekierka> ^bf +[]
19:59:00 <fungot>  ...out of time!
19:59:03 <asiekierka> :(
19:59:09 <asiekierka> ^bf +[+[+[+[+[+[]
19:59:09 <fungot> Mismatched [].
19:59:24 <asiekierka> ^bf +[+[+[+[+[+[][][]]]]]]
19:59:27 <fungot>  ...out of time!
19:59:29 <asiekierka> :(
20:00:11 -!- tritonio__ has joined.
20:00:18 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:06:51 -!- oklopol has joined.
20:11:31 <fizzie> ^reload
20:11:31 <fungot> Reloaded.
20:11:32 <fizzie> There's an append feature now. Works a bit like this:
20:11:32 <fizzie> ^bfcmd partialecho >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]
20:11:32 <fizzie> ^bfcmd partialecho
20:11:32 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]
20:11:32 <fizzie> ^bfadd partialecho ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>]
20:11:32 <fizzie> ^bfcmd partialecho
20:11:32 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>]
20:11:32 <fizzie> ^partialecho dumdidum.
20:11:32 <fungot> dumdidum. dumdidum.
20:11:32 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd
20:11:32 <fungot> Registered: reverb echo partialecho
20:11:32 <fizzie> So for the first part you just do a "^bfcmd foo bar", and then you can append to foo with "^bfadd foo morebar".
20:11:32 <asiekierka> Yay
20:11:32 <asiekierka> So now i can add larger programs?
20:11:32 <asiekierka> THIS ROCKS
20:11:32 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd rot13 +[,+[-[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]+>>++++++++[<-------->-]<-[<[-]>>>+[<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]<[<++>>>+[<+<->>-]<[>+<-]]>[<]<]>>[-]<<<[[-]<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>>++++++++[<-------->-]<->>++++[<++++++++>-]<-<[>>>+<<[>+>[-]<<-]>[<+>-]>[<<<<<+>>>>++++[<++++++++>-]>-]<<-<-]>[<<<<[-]>>>>[<<<<->>>>-]]<<++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<-[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]+>>+++++[<-
20:11:32 <asiekierka> ^bfadd rot13 ---->-]<-[<[-]>>>+[<+<->>-]<[>+<-]<[<++>>>+[<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]]>[<]<]>>[-]<<<[[-]<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]+>------------[<[-]>>>+[<+<->>-]<[>+<-]<[<++>>>+[<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]]>[<]<]>>[-]<<<<<------------->>[[-]+++++[<<+++++>>-]<<+>>]<[>++++[<<++++++++>>-]<-]>]<[-]++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+>]<.[-]+>>+<]>[[-]<]<]
20:11:32 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd
20:11:32 <fungot> Registered: reverb echo partialecho rot13
20:11:32 <asiekierka> ^rot13 willitwork
20:11:32 <fungot>  ...out of time!
20:11:32 <fizzie> Awww.
20:11:32 <asiekierka> *fells down*
20:11:32 <oklopol> what do you fell down?
20:11:33 <asiekierka> On the floor
20:11:38 <fizzie> I'll have to check how many cycles that rot13 takes. If it's not much over the current limit, I can increase it.
20:11:46 <oklopol> you can't fell down on the floor, but in some cases you can fell down the floor
20:11:47 <asiekierka> you know
20:11:54 <fizzie> Where's a good brainfuck interpreter with a cycle counter?
20:12:00 <asiekierka> NONE.
20:12:05 <asiekierka> I think if you could
20:12:12 <asiekierka> You should do something of ^bfterm
20:12:14 <oklopol> asiekierka: in case you still didn't get it, fell!=fall
20:12:15 <asiekierka> As in, for termination
20:12:20 <asiekierka> ok
20:12:36 <oklopol> fizzie: i have one somewhere
20:12:49 <oklopol> only prints cycles when newlines are printed thoug
20:12:50 <oklopol> h
20:12:56 -!- Mony has joined.
20:13:09 <oklopol> but you'd need python
20:13:12 <fizzie> I can always add a newline at the end if necessary.
20:13:23 <fizzie> I have Python.
20:13:38 <asiekierka> I think you should add a termination command... somehow.
20:13:39 <fizzie> I don't think I could really avoid Python at this point, so much stuff depends on it.
20:13:53 <asiekierka> Possibly an ability to set a cycle limit per program
20:13:58 <asiekierka> Of course
20:14:00 <asiekierka> not "infinity"
20:14:02 <Mony> hi
20:14:33 <fizzie> I'd need some better multithreading (or some too complicated things like continuing the currently running brainfuck program for N cycles after every IRC message).
20:15:14 <fizzie> Debian's aptitude: "Packages which depend on python (2036)"
20:16:09 <asiekierka> Set the limit to something like 2000000. And 512 IRC characters.
20:16:31 <asiekierka> cycle limit to something like 2000000, and irc char output amount to 192-256 or something
20:16:40 <asiekierka> no wait, surely you need 400 for the irc char limit
20:19:01 -!- olsner has joined.
20:21:10 <fizzie> Seems to be in the hundreds of thousands of cycles; running that on fungot will take pretty long indeed. I'm not completely sure the interpreter is even bug-free. But we can try.
20:21:40 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho|away.
20:22:23 <fizzie> ^reload
20:22:23 <fungot> Reloaded.
20:22:26 <fizzie> ^rot13 hello
20:22:34 <fizzie> Now, this might take a while...
20:23:08 <Deewiant> a brainfuck or befunge rot13?
20:23:21 <fizzie> A brainfuck rot13 running on the befunge brainfuck interpreter.
20:23:28 <Deewiant> heh
20:23:29 <fungot> uryyb..... ...out of time!
20:23:34 <oklopol> :D
20:23:55 <fizzie> Heh... it did get the 'hello' part done, but apparently my EOF convention (zero on eof) is different than it expected.
20:23:56 <asiekierka> ^rot13 urryb
20:24:13 <asiekierka> Ok, can I put a BF self-interpreter on it now? :D
20:24:14 <oklopol> heelo there!
20:24:15 <fizzie> So 1000000 cycles is enough to rot13 ten characters. "Heh."
20:24:24 <pikhq> Heh.
20:24:37 <asiekierka> an interpreter ON an interpreter ON an interpreter
20:24:47 <Deewiant> wonder why it's slow :-P
20:24:59 <fungot> heelo..... ...out of time!
20:25:04 <Deewiant> ^rot13 a
20:25:24 <fizzie> Well, it'll always take that long since it seems to continue rot13'ing the "0" my interpreter gives at eof.
20:25:43 <Deewiant> meh
20:25:44 <fizzie> At least I think that's what those .s are.
20:25:45 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd bfself >,[>>++++++[<+++++[<--->-]>-]->,]<[+<<<]>[[>+>+<<-]->-[--[<+>[>>>>+<<<<-]>>[>>[>>>-<<<+]>]>+[>[>>>-<<<+]>>]++++++[>+++++<-]->+[++[<+++++++[>+++<-]->-[-[-[-<+<.>>]<[+<->]>]<[+<,>]>]<[+<+>]>]<[+<<<+]>]<[>>>]-[+<<<-]<<<<[<<<]>]<[++++>>---<<<-[<<[<+>>+<-]>-[--[>+<[+]]>--<]>+<<<[>+<-]>>>[<<<->>>+]<<<]<<[>>+<<-]]>]<[+>>>[>>>]>+[>>>]-<[>
20:25:57 <asiekierka> ^bfadd bfself [+<<<-]<<<<[<<<]]>[[+<<<-]<<<<[<<<]+>>[[>>>+<<<-]>[>-<<->+]>-[--[>+<[+]]>--<]>+<<<[>+<-]>>>]+++<]<[-]]>>[<<+>>-]>]
20:26:00 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd
20:26:06 <fungot> n........ ...out of time!
20:26:06 <fungot> Registered: reverb echo partialecho rot13 bfself
20:26:07 <asiekierka> :((
20:26:09 <asiekierka> oh
20:26:11 <asiekierka> yay
20:26:14 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd bfself
20:26:15 <fungot> >,[>>++++++[<+++++[<--->-]>-]->,]<[+<<<]>[[>+>+<<-]->-[--[<+>[>>>>+<<<<-]>>[>>[>>>-<<<+]>]>+[>[>>>-<<<+]>>]++++++[>+++++<-]->+[++[<+++++++[>+++<-]->-[-[-[-<+<.>>]<[+<->]>]<[+<,>]>]<[+<+>]>]<[+<<<+]>]<[>>>]-[+<<<-]<<<<[<<<]>]<[++++>>---<<<-[<<[<+>>+<-]>-[--[>+<[+]]>--<]>+<<<[>+<-]>>>[<<<->>>+]<<<]<<[>>+<<-]]>]<[+>>>[>>>]>+[>>>]-<[>[+<<<-]<<<<[<<<]]>[[+<<<-]<<<<[<<<]+>>[[>>>+<<<-]>[>-<<->+]>-[--[>+<[+]]>--<]>+<<<[>+<-]>>>]+++<]<[-]]>>[<<+>>-]>]
20:26:20 <asiekierka> Oki!
20:26:43 <asiekierka> ^bfself ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.@
20:26:50 <asiekierka> . . . Great.
20:26:53 <fizzie> If that's really all of it, it's only 446 characters and would've worked even without the splitting.
20:27:02 <asiekierka> yes it is
20:27:07 <fizzie> And really, it will probably take at least as long as that rot13.
20:27:46 <fungot>  ...out of time!
20:27:54 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd dvorak +>>>>>>>++[+<[>]>[<++>-]<]<[[>+>+<<-]>>-]>+++++[>+++++++<-]>[[<<+>>-]<<-]++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+<<<<<<<<<<++++++<<<<<<<+++++[<<+++>+>-]<++<[<<<<<<<+++++>>+++++>+>+++>>+++++>>+++++<-]<<<+<<--->--[[<<+>>-]<<-]>---<<<<-<++++[<<<<++>->+++++++>+>-]<<[<<+>+>>+>>+>>++>>+<<<<<<<-]<[>+<-]<<->[[<<+>>-]<<-]<<<<++++++++++++[<<+>---->-]<<[[<<+>>-]<<-]+++[>---------<-]<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<+<++++[<<++++>>-]<<[<<<--->>>>->>-->>>>>>---<<<<<<<<<-]<<<--<<[  
20:28:04 <asiekierka> ^bfadd dvorak >>>>---->>--->>--<<<<<<<-]>>>>>+>>+++
20:28:06 <asiekierka>     >>>+++++++[<->>---->>->>--<<<<<-]>+>>---->>>>+++++>>---->>-->
20:28:06 <asiekierka>     ++++++[>--------<-]>+>>---->>+++>>------------>>>>++>>+++++++++>>-->>------
20:28:06 <asiekierka>     >>---->>++>>+>+++++++[<++>>-<-]>>>+>>>+++++++[<+>>+++>>>>>>++++<<<<<<<-]>+
20:28:06 <asiekierka>     >>>>>>>>
20:28:06 <asiekierka> ]>[<+>-]>[>>]<,[[[<<+>>-]<<-]>.[>>]<,]
20:28:10 <asiekierka> duhh
20:28:30 <fizzie> If you want to start from the beginning, you can use "^bfcmd dvorak foo" to reset it to foo.
20:28:35 <fizzie> And you could use the -blah channel for pasting.
20:28:43 <fizzie> I'll be away for a while now. Try not to overwork my poor fungot. (I think I should check how many Befunge instructions it executes to process those brainfuck programs.)
20:28:45 <asiekierka> ^bfadd dvorak >>>+++++++[<->>---->>->>--<<<<<-]>+>>---->>>>+++++>>---->>-->++++++[>--------<-]>+>>---->>+++>>------------>>>>++>>+++++++++>>-->>------>>---->>++>>+>+++++++[<++>>-<-]>>>+>>>+++++++[<+>>+++>>>>>>++++<<<<<<<-]>+>>>>>>>>
20:28:59 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd dvorak
20:28:59 <fungot> +>>>>>>>++[+<[>]>[<++>-]<]<[[>+>+<<-]>>-]>+++++[>+++++++<-]>[[<<+>>-]<<-]++++++[>++++++++++<-]>+<<<<<<<<<<++++++<<<<<<<+++++[<<+++>+>-]<++<[<<<<<<<+++++>>+++++>+>+++>>+++++>>+++++<-]<<<+<<--->--[[<<+>>-]<<-]>---<<<<-<++++[<<<<++>->+++++++>+>-]<<[<<+>+>>+>>+>>++>>+<<<<<<<-]<[>+<-]<<->[[<<+>>-]<<-]<<<<++++++++++++[<<+>---->-]<<[[<<+>>-]<<-]+++[>---------<-]<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<+<++++[<<++++>>-]<<[<<<--->>>>->>-->>>>>>---<<<<<<<<<-]<<<--<<[  >>>>---->>--->>--<<<<<
20:29:25 <asiekierka> ^dvorak LOLDVORAK
20:30:47 <asiekierka> ... /_\
20:30:57 <asiekierka> This is hopeless.
20:31:15 <asiekierka> Did i just crash this Fizzie Corporations Befungey Fungey Irc Bot?
20:31:25 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd
20:31:25 <fungot> Registered: reverb echo partialecho rot13 bfself dvorak
20:31:29 <asiekierka> Yay 4 not.
20:31:42 <asiekierka> ^rot13 me and my wii
20:32:44 <fungot> zr naq zl jvv. ...out of time!
20:33:06 <asiekierka> ^rot13 "me and my wii" was ten :(
20:33:23 <Deewiant> so it can do eleven
20:34:09 <fungot> "zr naq zl jvv"  ...out of time!
20:34:25 <Deewiant> ^rot13 123456789012345678901234567890
20:35:28 <fungot> 123456789012345678901234567890....... ...out of time!
20:35:47 <Deewiant> so it's faster when they don't need rotting
20:35:57 <Deewiant> which was to be expected
20:38:48 <asiekierka> I have a new game idea.
20:38:52 <asiekierka> "One Bon Bon is Poison"
20:39:04 <asiekierka> Well, it's just a name so far
20:51:27 <dogface> Let me guess: Everyone knows that certain bon bons are not poison, but they're not allowed to eat those ones, so they have to... figure out which one is poison.
20:51:32 <dogface> And not eat it.
20:53:55 <asiekierka> It's just the name
20:54:09 <asiekierka> There's not a word about bon bons
20:54:10 <asiekierka> or poison
21:04:55 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd bertram >,+[>,+]<[[[->>+>>-[<]<<<]>[<]<[->>>>+<<<<]>>[>+>+<<-]<<<]>>>>-.[-]>[>]<]
21:05:03 <asiekierka> ^bertram 12345
21:06:15 <fungot>  ...out of time!
21:10:26 <asiekierka> yaysirs :(
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21:41:20 <fizzie> I don't see any output commands in that dvorak program: I think it's missing the final "]>[<+>-]>[>>]<,[[[<<+>>-]<<-]>.[>>]<,]" part. It'll probably just run out of time, though.
21:41:31 <fizzie> ^bfadd dvorak ]>[<+>-]>[>>]<,[[[<<+>>-]<<-]>.[>>]<,]
21:41:35 <fizzie> ^dvorak huh
21:41:35 <fungot> Mismatched [].
21:41:41 <fizzie> Well, maybe not.
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21:44:09 <fizzie> ^dvorak huh
21:44:18 <fizzie> (Re-uploaded it in a query.)
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21:45:13 <fungot>  ...out of time!
21:45:25 <fizzie> How uncommon.
21:48:31 <fizzie> Well, wc.b works with it.
21:48:36 <fizzie> ^wc How many words in this?
21:48:38 <fungot> .0.5.23.
21:48:43 <fizzie> ^bfcmd wc
21:48:43 <fungot> >>>+>>>>>+>>+>>+[<<],[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[-[<+>-[>+<-[>-<-[-[-[<++[<++++++>-]<[>>[-<]<[>]<-]>>[<+>-[<->[-]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]<[-<<[-]+>]<<[>>>>>>+<<<<<<-]>[>]>>>>>>>+>[<+[>+++++++++<-[>-<-]++>[<+++++++>-[<->-]+[+>>>>>>]]<[>+<-]>[>>>>>++>[-]]+<]>[-<<<<<<]>>>>],]+<++>>>[[+++++>>>>>>]<+>+[[<++++++++>-]<.<<<<<]>>>>>>>>]
21:51:11 <fizzie> So, any other languages that can comfortably be interpreted with Befunge?
21:53:20 <tusho> fizzie: bct
21:53:23 <tusho> funge
21:53:23 <tusho> :P
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22:51:51 <Mony> 'nigh
22:51:55 <Mony> night*
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23:03:55 <CakeProphet> hmmm...
23:04:08 <CakeProphet> I wonder if it's possible to reconstruct the source code of a program
23:04:17 <CakeProphet> given only its state information and output as its running.
23:04:39 <CakeProphet> or at least something close to it.
23:09:59 <dogface> Hmm.
23:10:37 <dogface> Like being given the current tape of a BF program and every change to it and everything it outputs, but not the instruction pointer or actual number of steps or anything like that?
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23:12:56 <CakeProphet> -nod- yeah...
23:12:58 <CakeProphet> but
23:13:01 <CakeProphet> with BF that would be very very easy
23:14:01 <dogface> That's pretty much determining what a function is by what its output is, no?
23:14:09 <CakeProphet> almost.
23:14:43 * dogface nods
23:17:12 <CakeProphet> for BF, the main difficulty would be determining where the []'s are.
23:17:29 <CakeProphet> but I suppose with some pattern recognition you could detect when it's doing something over and over again
23:17:32 <CakeProphet> and then once it stops
23:17:36 <CakeProphet> determine what changed to make it stop
23:18:07 <CakeProphet> if you could figure it out for BF
23:18:08 <CakeProphet> then
23:18:20 <dogface> Use AI. :-)
23:18:34 <CakeProphet> with GDB + output, you could convert any executable into a BF program.
23:19:35 <CakeProphet> hmmm... on a related note
23:19:38 <CakeProphet> are there any C-to-BF compilers?
23:21:30 <CakeProphet> I could some things being fairly simple... handling variable declarations and assignments
23:21:38 <CakeProphet> and other things being more difficult... like making gotos work
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2008-08-18:

00:01:22 <oklopol> CakeProphet: it's possible if the language is reversible.
00:09:21 -!- GregorR has joined.
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00:13:04 <CakeProphet> GregorR, it is it "gregor er" or "Gregor arr"
00:13:26 <GregorR> ... R is the initial of my surname, it's Gregor R.
00:13:48 <GregorR> So, "Gregor arr" ... sort of.
00:13:48 <CakeProphet> ir perhaps it is a purr
00:13:51 <CakeProphet> like Gregorrrrrrrr
00:13:58 <GregorR> Then it wouldn't be capitalized :P
00:14:28 <CakeProphet> psh, I only care about capitalization when I'm programming.
00:17:55 <GregorR> And yet you're correctly capitalizing 'I' :P
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00:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | well then you would have made a super-turing machine, obviously :).
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00:56:25 <twistle> I just invented an esoteric language.
00:56:59 <twistle> It's called TRUE(a reference to FALSE), and I'd like someone to clean up the wiki page for me
00:57:39 <twistle> Also, whatcha think of it?
00:57:43 <twistle> :)
01:15:14 <dogface> Ello.
01:17:06 <dogface> Just what do "add 'n pop" and such do?
01:18:01 <dogface> Also, it doesn't look Turing-complete, as the only storage you have is a stack; I think using a queue instead of a stack would make it both Turing-complete and harder to use. :-)
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01:30:01 <psygnisfive> a single stack is not sufficient
01:30:04 <psygnisfive> for TCness
01:37:42 <twistle> aw, phooey
01:38:06 <twistle> add n' pop means:
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01:38:41 <twistle> add the two values on top of the stack, pop them, then push the result on
01:38:54 <psygnisfive> uh..
01:38:54 <psygnisfive> what?
01:38:59 <psygnisfive> that makes no sense
01:39:20 <psygnisfive> do you mean pop-pop-add-push?
01:39:25 <psygnisfive> because you cant add then pop
01:39:29 <psygnisfive> thats not how stacks work
01:39:37 <twistle> no,
01:40:00 <twistle> the stack goes from 1 2 to 3
01:40:04 <psygnisfive> right
01:40:08 <psygnisfive> thats pop pop add push
01:40:17 <psygnisfive> the + operation in forth, for instance
01:40:33 <psygnisfive> pops the top two values from the stack, adds them together, and then pushes the sum back onto the stack.
01:40:48 <twistle> Exactly what this does
01:40:51 <psygnisfive> yes
01:40:55 <psygnisfive> but why name it backwards?
01:41:05 <twistle> ?
01:41:14 <psygnisfive> it doesnt add the two values then pop them
01:41:22 <psygnisfive> it pops them first
01:41:25 <psygnisfive> then adds them
01:41:45 <psygnisfive> besides, why call it and and pop at all, why not just add?
01:43:09 <dogface> And what do rb and ra. do, exactly?
01:43:24 <dogface> "Subtract two numbers and tell me the result" is ambiguous.
01:47:52 <twistle> a b is the stack
01:48:00 <twistle> b is at the top
01:48:18 <twistle> rb would be b/a
01:50:16 <twistle> same order in ra.
01:50:50 <twistle> I added a hello world, by the way
01:52:00 <psygnisfive> so ra would be a/b?
01:54:36 <dogface> I think rb is b-a and ra. is b/a, or the other way around.
01:54:46 <dogface> Where b is the top element on the stack and a is under it.
01:55:12 <psygnisfive> then why not called them sub and div, respectively
01:55:19 <psygnisfive> or - and /
01:56:57 <dogface> Because it's esoteric. :-)
01:57:05 <psygnisfive> no its not, its forth!
01:58:25 <psygnisfive> someone should make a Fauxeteric language maker that will take a random normal language and assign random names and symbols to built in function names and keywords
01:58:31 <psygnisfive> maybe even syntactic items.
01:58:35 <twistle> No, it has the Tan Rabbi Up Eckhebber format, because it's simple, and yet esoteric. :)
01:58:53 <twistle> Sounds fun
01:59:09 <psygnisfive> LISP can become :fos^jdk``
01:59:19 <psygnisfive> instead of (- my-var)
01:59:20 <psygnisfive> !
01:59:24 <psygnisfive> it'll be brilliant!
01:59:37 <psygnisfive> ZOMG ITS ESOTERIC
02:00:32 <twistle> You, sir, have just had what we folks call an "esopiphany"
02:00:51 <psygnisfive> you sir dont get that im mocking you.
02:01:08 <twistle> You sir..............................
02:01:10 <twistle> .................
02:01:37 * twistle becomes suddenly interested in his shoelaces
02:02:51 <twistle> BTW, Did anyone notice in the "documentation" goto go_collect200dollars?
02:03:14 <twistle> Originally it was going to be goto jail
02:03:53 <twistle> There's a nice ring to tntntntntntntntntnup.Hello world!u.pup
02:04:39 <twistle> I feel fat, and sassy
02:06:36 <twistle> Ha! Your seat are untied!
02:08:01 <twistle> \fsd
02:08:09 <twistle> \v.ds\.f,s\,\f\d
02:08:18 * twistle shuts down
02:09:15 <twistle> Well, I'm off to the land of oz...I mean zig...
02:10:23 <twistle> Anyone is free to change the wiki page and morph TRUE into a completely different language
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04:15:27 <CakeProphet> GCC extends the C language with a unary && operator that returns the address of a label. This address can be stored in a void* variable type and may be used later in a goto instruction. For example, the following prints "hi " in an infinite loop:
04:15:30 <CakeProphet> oh lawd
04:15:48 <CakeProphet> so many arcane rules to C syntax.
04:18:04 <psygnisfive> C is lame.
04:19:28 <CakeProphet> I like C in some ways.
04:19:31 <CakeProphet> it's a terrible language design, but
04:19:48 <CakeProphet> I enjoy its low-levelness
04:20:09 <CakeProphet> (I'm sure if I were familiar with assembly I'd love its low-levelness more)
04:23:18 <CakeProphet> ...honestly
04:23:20 <CakeProphet> I think
04:23:25 <CakeProphet> a replacement for C would be nice.
04:23:41 <CakeProphet> something that occupies the same niche, but it is actually a "better" language.
04:38:41 <dogface> Is a language considered low-level if and only if the most obvious way to compile it is also the most efficient?
04:40:01 <psygnisfive> low level is a relative vague term
04:40:13 <psygnisfive> for instance, a lot of people would say that Java is low level compared to Lisp.
04:41:29 <dogface> Is there a point where a language is too high-level to be considered a programming language rather than a description language?
04:42:12 <CakeProphet> hahah... HTML?
04:42:27 <dogface> HTML doesn't describe the behavior of a program.
04:42:35 <CakeProphet> ah...
04:42:41 <CakeProphet> I thought by "description language" you meant
04:42:46 <CakeProphet> a language that... described something.
04:42:51 <dogface> Like a program.
04:43:57 <CakeProphet> From what I understand, I believe low-level means that the data structures and operators are in some way or another closely tied to their implementation in hardware.
05:35:15 <psygnisfive> dogface: do you mean description language as in
05:35:27 <psygnisfive> some language in which you define a problem, not an algorithm?
05:35:46 <psygnisfive> because if so, that sounds a lot like logic and constraint programming.
05:36:11 <dogface> Yep, that's what Imean.
05:36:21 <psygnisfive> well those are just different programming paradigms
05:36:25 <dogface> Time for me to go to bed. Good night.
05:36:25 <psygnisfive> they're still programming tho
05:36:31 <psygnisfive> just different primitive operations
05:36:42 <dogface> I haven't seen it taken as far as I'm taking it.
05:36:46 <psygnisfive> infact, not terribly different really.
05:36:52 <psygnisfive> dogface: example of your extremes?
05:36:59 <dogface> Though it's likely Z-notation is exactly what I'm after.
05:37:18 <dogface> Well, ideally, it'll be perfectly easy to translate ZFC into this language.
05:37:18 <psygnisfive> i'll notate your z's
05:37:20 <psygnisfive> ;O
05:37:27 <dogface> Thank you. :-)
05:37:27 <psygnisfive> ZFC?
05:37:41 * dogface begins catching (yes, ZFC) his Zs
05:38:04 <psygnisfive> zermelo-fraenkel set theory?
05:38:14 <psygnisfive> i think Prolog can do that easily
05:38:16 <dogface> Yes.
05:38:21 <dogface> Show me.
05:38:50 <psygnisfive> im not sure how it would, but i think it can
05:39:29 <psygnisfive> maybe. prolog is all based around horn clauses, so the notation will be kind of less standard than, say, normal first order logic, etc.
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06:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 'python netpong.py thathostname' => clien.
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07:46:37 <GreaseMonkey> ^bfcmd
07:46:38 <fungot> Registered: reverb echo partialecho rot13 bfself dvorak bertram wc
07:46:56 <GreaseMonkey> ^rot13 Hello World!
07:47:04 <GreaseMonkey> hmm... i think not.
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07:47:59 <fungot> Uryyb Jbeyq!.. ...out of time!
07:48:31 <GreaseMonkey> that is the slowest crap ever.
07:48:46 <GreaseMonkey> ^bfself
07:54:22 <fizzie> Well, it's a completely unoptimized ~12x70-character brainfuck interpreter that's running in a befunge interpreter. Cut it some slack.
07:55:24 <fizzie> It will probably be an order of magnitude faster once I get the "compiles bf to bytecode and combines consecutive +-<>" version done.
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08:01:32 <asiekierka> Hello
08:01:49 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd
08:01:50 <fungot> Registered: reverb echo partialecho rot13 bfself dvorak bertram wc
08:01:52 <asiekierka> :O
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08:02:06 <asiekierka> ^dvorak qwerty
08:02:14 <fizzie> It will run out of time.
08:02:23 <asiekierka> yay, you're alive
08:02:34 <asiekierka> also, any ideas what caused the problem(s)?
08:02:38 <asiekierka> or
08:02:40 <asiekierka> i meant
08:02:45 <asiekierka> are there any bugs in fungotBF
08:03:09 <fungot>  ...out of time!
08:03:40 <fizzie> No clear bugs that I know of. It has the "zero on eof" behaviour which is perhaps not that common, and is slow as molasses, but those are more like features.
08:04:09 <asiekierka> the zero on eof is not a bug, but a feature, for sure
08:04:17 <asiekierka> Because it's really easy to use 0 on eof, actually
08:04:27 <asiekierka> [(code lasting until eof here)]
08:04:33 <asiekierka> 1 on eof and no change is tons harder
08:04:52 <asiekierka> Especially no change on eof
08:05:05 <fizzie> I'm going to replace the current unoptimized interpreter with one that compiles the brainfuck first to bytecode (combining runs of +-<>) and interprets that. It will probably be quite a bit faster.
08:05:12 <asiekierka> :)
08:05:24 <asiekierka> By bytecode, do you mean befungecode or executable?
08:05:41 <asiekierka> If executable, you shouldn't. Really.
08:05:46 <fizzie> Just a string of fungespace values, just easier to interpret.
08:05:47 <asiekierka> If befungecode, you should. Really.
08:05:50 <asiekierka> oh
08:06:10 <asiekierka> I must run a BF self-interp on BFirc
08:06:34 <asiekierka> BFirc (latest revision) outputs a #13#10 after every message
08:06:35 <asiekierka> Yay.
08:06:54 <asiekierka> Thanks to it, Taking Over The World... works. :P
08:11:19 <asiekierka> I wonder how to make a BF ircbot that's good.
08:11:44 <asiekierka> BFirc basically inputs from a buffer and outputs to a buffer
08:11:59 <asiekierka> if #10 is output, it copies whatever's in the buffer as an irc message
08:12:16 <asiekierka> #13 is blocked
08:12:20 <asiekierka> so both #13#10 and #10 work
08:12:21 <asiekierka> :)
08:12:42 <asiekierka> And who the heck uses #13 only should be thrown to the depths of hell. Twice.
08:15:32 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf +.[+.]
08:15:32 <fungot> .............................. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~�������������������������������������������������������������������������������� ...
08:17:00 <puzzlet> when would it is interrupted?
08:17:05 <puzzlet> be*
08:20:12 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd
08:20:12 <fungot> Registered: reverb echo partialecho rot13 bfself dvorak bertram wc
08:20:28 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd rot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuv
08:21:05 <asiekierka> zzzZZZzzz
08:21:11 <asiekierka> zzzZZZzzzZZZzzz... xD
08:22:39 <puzzlet> ^rot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuv
08:23:00 <puzzlet> ^bfcmd
08:23:01 <fungot> Registered: reverb echo partialecho rot13 bfself dvorak bertram wc
08:23:19 <asiekierka> oh wait a minute
08:23:20 <asiekierka> :(
08:23:23 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd rot13
08:23:23 <fungot> abcdefghijklmnopqrstuv
08:23:28 <asiekierka> Yayz, i broke my function
08:23:32 <asiekierka> Let me re-add it. *sigh*
08:23:38 <puzzlet> ^bfcmd echo hello
08:23:50 <asiekierka> You broke echo too now
08:24:02 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd rot13 +[,+[-[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]+>>++++++++[<-------->-]<-[<[-]>>>+[<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]<[<++>
08:24:03 <asiekierka> >>+[<+<->>-]<[>+<-]]>[<]<]>>[-]<<<[[-]<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>>++++++++[<-------
08:24:03 <asiekierka> ->-]<->>++++[<++++++++>-]<-<[>>>+<<[>+>[-]<<-]>[<+>-]>[<<<<<+>>>>++++[<++++++++
08:24:03 <asiekierka> >-]>-]<<-<-]>[<<<<[-]>>>>[<<<<->>>>-]]<<++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<-[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+
08:24:04 <asiekierka> :(
08:24:59 <puzzlet> now i get it
08:24:59 <puzzlet> ^bfcmd rot13 +[,+[-[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]+>>++++++++[<-------->-]<-[<[-]>>>+[<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]<[<++>>>+[<+<->>-]<[>+<-]]>[<]<]>>[-]<<<[[-]<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>>++++++++[<-------->-]<->>++++[<++++++++>-]<-<[>>>+<<[>+>[-]<<-]>[<+>-]>[<<<<<+>>>>++++[<++++++++>-]>-]<<-<-]>[<<<<[-]>>>>[<<<<->>>>-]]<<++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<-[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+
08:25:00 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd rot13 +[,+[-[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]+>>++++++++[<-------->-]<-[<[-]>>>+[<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]<[<++>>>+[<+<->>-]<[>+<-]]>[<]<]>>[-]<<<[[-]<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>>++++++++[<-------->-]<->>++++[<++++++++>-]<-<[>>>+<<[>+>[-]<<-]>[<+>-]>[<<<<<+>>>>++++[<++++++++>-]>-]<<-<-]>[<<<<[-]>>>>[<<<<->>>>-]]<<++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<-[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]+>>+++++[<-
08:25:07 <asiekierka> YOU BROKE IT AGAIN
08:25:08 <asiekierka> :(
08:25:09 <puzzlet> sry
08:25:16 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd rot13 +[,+[-[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]+>>++++++++[<-------->-]<-[<[-]>>>+[<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]<[<++>>>+[<+<->>-]<[>+<-]]>[<]<]>>[-]<<<[[-]<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>>++++++++[<-------->-]<->>++++[<++++++++>-]<-<[>>>+<<[>+>[-]<<-]>[<+>-]>[<<<<<+>>>>++++[<++++++++>-]>-]<<-<-]>[<<<<[-]>>>>[<<<<->>>>-]]<<++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<-[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]+>>+++++[<-
08:25:19 <asiekierka> ^bfadd rot13 ---->-]<-[<[-]>>>+[<+<->>-]<[>+<-]<[<++>>>+[<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]]>[<]<]>>[-]<<<[[-]<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]+>------------[<[-]>>>+[<+<->>-]<[>+<-]<[<++>>>+[<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]]>[<]<]>>[-]<<<<<------------->>[[-]+++++[<<+++++>>-]<<+>>]<[>++++[<<++++++++>>-]<-]>]<[-]++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+>]<.[-]+>>+<]>[[-]<]<]
08:25:25 <asiekierka> Couldn't you just do THIS?
08:25:33 <asiekierka> ^rot13 abcdefghijklmnopqrstuv
08:25:40 <puzzlet> ^bfcmd rot13
08:25:54 <asiekierka> It's busy, can't you see
08:26:37 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd funkecho ,[>,.<.,]
08:26:38 <fungot> nopqrstuvwxyza ...out of time!
08:26:38 <fungot> +[,+[-[>+>+<<-]>[<+>-]+>>++++++++[<-------->-]<-[<[-]>>>+[<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]<[<++>>>+[<+<->>-]<[>+<-]]>[<]<]>>[-]<<<[[-]<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]>>++++++++[<-------->-]<->>++++[<++++++++>-]<-<[>>>+<<[>+>[-]<<-]>[<+>-]>[<<<<<+>>>>++++[<++++++++>-]>-]<<-<-]>[<<<<[-]>>>>[<<<<->>>>-]]<<++++[<<++++++++>>-]<<-[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]+>>+++++[<----->-]<-[<[-]>>>+[<+<->>-]<[>+<-]<[<++>>>+[<+<+>>-]<[>+<-]]>[<]<]>>[-]<<<[[-]<<[>>+>+<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]+>------------[<[-]>>>+[<+<->
08:26:59 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd
08:27:00 <fungot> Registered: reverb echo partialecho rot13 bfself dvorak bertram wc funkecho
08:27:27 <asiekierka> ^funkecho Get it now? ^bfcmd and ^bfadd are so useful on irc.
08:27:27 <fungot> eG ttin wo ?b^cfdma dn^ fbda dra eosu esuf lnoi cr..
08:28:02 <puzzlet> got it
08:28:03 <asiekierka> ^funkecho eG ttin wo ?b^cfdma dn^ fbda dra eosu esuf lnoi cr..
08:28:03 <fungot> Get it now? ^bfcmd and ^bfadd are so useful on irc..
08:28:07 <asiekierka> :)
08:28:14 <asiekierka> Hopefully.
08:28:48 <puzzlet> is echo [,.>]?
08:28:57 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd echo
08:28:58 <fungot> hello
08:29:01 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd partialecho
08:29:02 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>]
08:29:14 <asiekierka> ^partialecho testestestestestestestestestestestest
08:29:15 <puzzlet> since i gotta fix it back
08:29:15 <fungot> testestestestestestestestestestestest testestestestestestestestestestestest
08:29:22 <asiekierka> Echo == Partialecho
08:29:40 <fizzie> Yes, I just used partialecho for testing the multi-segment program thing.
08:30:35 <puzzlet> ^bfcmd echo >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>]
08:31:28 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd kill ++++++++[>++++>+++++++++<<-]>>+++.--.+++..<.>>,[.,]<<+.
08:31:36 <asiekierka> ^kill optbot
08:31:36 <optbot> asiekierka: i'm not actually sure whether you can just do infix alone with my current implementation... would be kinda sucky if you couldn't :P
08:31:36 <fungot> KILL optbot!
08:31:37 <optbot> fungot: don't look at me i didn't do it
08:31:46 <asiekierka> xD
08:32:20 <asiekierka> ^kill THE MAN! YEAH, KILL THE MAN
08:32:21 <fungot> KILL THE MAN! YEAH, KILL THE MAN!
08:32:38 <asiekierka> Another pointlesssssssssssssssssss commandddd.d.d.dddd.dd Added.
08:32:52 <fizzie> ^rev tobtpo
08:32:52 <fungot> optbot
08:32:52 <optbot> fungot: hard to say, youngest from the active ones.
08:33:20 <asiekierka> ^kill OPTBOT. Yeah, optbot. Hide from the nuclear bombsssssssssss
08:33:20 <optbot> asiekierka: I think I continue more than I break
08:33:21 <fungot> KILL OPTBOT. Yeah, optbot. Hide from the nuclear bombsssssssssss!
08:33:21 <optbot> fungot: I think I got the BF indenter working
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08:33:43 <asiekierka> You know
08:33:47 <asiekierka> i have an evil idea
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08:34:32 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf +++++[->+++++++++++++++<]>.[-]<+++[->++++++++++++++++++++++++<]>+.[-]<++++++[->++++++++++++<]>++++.[-]<++++++[->++++++++++++<]>++++.[-]<++[->++++++++++++++++<]>.[-]<+++++++++[->++++++++<]>+++++++.[-]<++++[->++<]>[->++++++++++<]>.[-]<++++[->+++++++++++++++++++++<]>.[-]<++++++[->+++++++++++<]>.[-]<+++++++++[->++++++++<]>+++++++.[-]<++++[->+++++++++++++++++++++<]>.[-]<+[->++++++++++<]>.
08:34:32 <fungot> KILL OPTBOT.
08:34:33 <optbot> fungot: hi
08:36:20 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd test1 ++++++++[>++++++>++++++++++++++>++++++++++++<<<-]>-.>.>+.<++.++.
08:36:22 <asiekierka> ^test1
08:36:22 <fungot> /part
08:36:26 <asiekierka> ...uh
08:36:31 <asiekierka> That wasn't supposed to happen
08:36:37 <asiekierka> ^bfdel test1
08:36:39 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd
08:36:40 <fungot> Registered: reverb echo partialecho rot13 bfself dvorak bertram wc funkecho kill rev test1
08:37:00 <fizzie> There's no command-deletion as of yet. But you can always reuse command names by redefining them.
08:37:12 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd bfcmd +[]
08:37:15 <asiekierka> haha
08:37:17 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd
08:37:18 <fungot> Registered: reverb echo partialecho rot13 bfself dvorak bertram wc funkecho kill rev test1 bfcmd
08:37:20 <asiekierka> No wait
08:37:23 <asiekierka> not so good
08:37:29 <fizzie> It will apply built-in commands first.
08:37:32 <asiekierka> :/
08:37:39 <asiekierka> You don't have a bug yet, do you/
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08:38:05 <fizzie> There have been quite a lot of bugs. And ! is handled pretty unintuitively in macros.
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08:38:19 <fizzie> ^bfcmd test1 ,[.,]!foo
08:38:21 <fizzie> ^test1 bar
08:38:22 <fungot> foo!bar
08:38:51 <asiekierka> You know
08:38:59 <asiekierka> Should i get to making my Brainf**k IRCbot?
08:39:22 <fizzie> Sure, why not?
08:39:31 <asiekierka> it'll be a... PAIN. :(
08:42:21 <asiekierka> I wonder what's the easiest way to do a check whether a character is equal... to something.
08:42:35 <asiekierka> in BF.
08:42:41 <asiekierka> For example, 95.
08:42:43 <asiekierka> 96*
08:42:56 <asiekierka> But i'll need more checks later on :P
08:47:14 <asiekierka> Oh my god, wha----WHY I thought of this BFirc thing?
08:47:22 <asiekierka> This is going to be a pain
08:47:28 <asiekierka> and nobody will care anyway. :P
08:48:21 <Deewiant> in brainfuck? subtract 96 from it and check if it's zero
08:48:27 <asiekierka> Heh.
08:48:42 <asiekierka> I thought of using a flag to overcome some stuff.
08:48:46 <asiekierka> As in
08:48:49 <asiekierka> I set the flag to 1
08:48:51 <asiekierka> subtract 96
08:48:57 <asiekierka> If it's nonzero
08:48:59 <asiekierka> [>-<]
08:49:06 <asiekierka> Then go to the flag
08:49:10 <asiekierka> [code]
08:49:36 <asiekierka> My commands will be oneletter.
08:49:37 <asiekierka> as in
08:49:39 <asiekierka> not `bfcmd
08:49:41 <asiekierka> but `b
08:49:46 <asiekierka> or something
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09:17:02 <asiekierka> Hmm
09:17:36 <Slereah_> You sound like an electric line.
09:17:47 <asiekierka> I'm thinking about my BF code
09:17:53 <Slereah_> Who isn't.
09:18:05 <asiekierka> Everyone isn't
09:18:08 <asiekierka> No-one cares.
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09:19:56 <asiekierka> Nope
09:20:07 <asiekierka> I wonder how to do a [ ] if the current cell is 0\
09:20:13 <asiekierka> I was thinking about using a flag
09:20:16 <asiekierka> Bleh, not as easy
09:20:24 <asiekierka> as i thought
09:20:47 <asiekierka> I must check if cell2 is nonzero, if it is, zero cell4.
09:21:06 <asiekierka> Then, in both nonzero and zero cases, it should point at cell4
09:21:13 <asiekierka> Cell4=1
09:22:38 <asiekierka> IF CELL2 != 1
09:22:39 <asiekierka> ZERO CELL 4
09:22:39 <asiekierka> GO TO CELL 4
09:22:39 <asiekierka> ELSE
09:22:39 <asiekierka> GO TO CELL 4
09:22:45 <asiekierka> Something like this but in BF
09:24:03 <asiekierka> Any ideas?
09:24:18 <asiekierka> 8-bit cells, do wraparound
09:24:18 <asiekierka> unsigned
09:29:12 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd rot13 ,+[-->++++[>++++++++<-]<[->+>-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<<]>>[-]>>--[-[>
09:29:13 <asiekierka> -<[-]]]>+[-<+++++++++++++<[->-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]>[-]+>[<--
09:29:13 <asiekierka> >-[<+>-]]<[<<<<+++++++++++++>>>>-]]<<[-]<<+.[-]<,+]
09:29:21 <asiekierka> ^bfadd rot13 -<[-]]]>+[-<+++++++++++++<[->-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]>[-]+>[<--
09:29:26 <asiekierka> ^bfadd rot13 >-[<+>-]]<[<<<<+++++++++++++>>>>-]]<<[-]<<+.[-]<,+]
09:29:38 <asiekierka> ^rot13 i hope this works faster, actually
09:30:27 <asiekierka> ^bfcmd bubblesort >>>>>,+[>>>,+]<<<[<<<[>>>[-<<<-<+>[>]>>]<<<[<]>>[>>>+<<<-]<[>+>>>+<<<<-]<<]>>>[-.[-]]>>>[>>>]<<<]
09:30:53 <fungot> v ubcr guvf jbexf snfgre, npghnyyl............................................................................................................................... ...out of time!
09:31:33 <asiekierka> yes, it does do more, but the dots, the DOTS
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09:31:41 <asiekierka> ^sort asiekierkabuhh
09:31:45 <asiekierka> ^bubblesort asiekierkabuhh
09:32:14 <Slereah_> What does "asiekierkabuhh" mean
09:32:50 <fungot>  ...out of time!
09:33:13 <Slereah_> Does it?
09:33:47 <puzzlet> hopefully
09:34:50 <Deewiant> ^bubblesort cba
09:35:55 <fungot>  ...out of time!
09:36:27 <Deewiant> ^bubblesort a
09:37:31 <fungot>  ...out of time!
09:38:01 <asiekierka> ^bertram 29334
09:38:29 <asiekierka> Also, BF ircbot is a real chawwenge
09:38:50 <asiekierka> Especially w/o a {} (whilezero) loop
09:39:12 <fungot>  ...out of time!
09:40:02 <Deewiant> ^bertram 1
09:41:12 <fungot>  ...out of time!
10:23:52 <asiekierka> ^bf +[]
10:24:04 <asiekierka> >_______________________________________<
10:24:56 <asiekierka> <""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""">
10:25:24 <fungot>  ...out of time!
10:25:42 <fizzie> It's still the good old interpreter, I haven't even reloaded yet, and the user commands need to be done.
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12:32:01 <fizzie> Well, according to fib.b, the new interpreter seems to be at least a bit faster than the previous one. But currently fungot has only ^bf, not the command-definition things, since I haven't reimplemented those yet.
12:32:06 <fizzie> ^bf >++++++++++>+>+[[+++++[>++++++++<-]>.<++++++[>--------<-]+<<<]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<<<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<<<]
12:32:08 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459e ...
12:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | eggs with chipotle sauce.
13:08:36 <oklopol> asiekierka: Especially w/o a {} (whilezero) loop <<< you can substitute { and } for short pieces of bf code to do a whilezero loop just before running
13:08:43 <oklopol> err
13:08:55 <oklopol> substitute substitute's params there with each other
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14:51:06 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: kill
14:51:06 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: By some guy, I mean NASA
14:51:20 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: hello
14:51:20 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: MISC VM?
14:51:26 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: yes
14:51:26 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: hehehe... I see wierd though. I never knew someone wrote Hello World in Wierd.
14:51:42 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: true
14:51:42 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: note that it must not read/write the shell std streams
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15:48:09 <twistle> how would you go about making a non-bootstrapping bf quine
15:48:12 <twistle> ?
15:49:01 <oklopol> what does that mean
15:49:31 <twistle> A BF program which prints its own source,
15:49:40 <twistle> and does not require any input
15:50:02 <oklopol> err so no-bootstrapping meant nothing
15:50:05 <oklopol> it's simple
15:50:11 <oklopol> i can explain the common method
15:51:33 <twistle> Och aye!
15:51:37 <oklopol> basically, the idea is, we create a piece of code that takes *encoded* program source as "argument", in bf's case it's on the tape when this program is run. it then prints this encoded source as bf code generating that data, then prints the source the encoded source represents
15:51:44 <oklopol> now, we take this program, and we encode it
15:51:53 -!- MikeRiley has joined.
15:51:58 <oklopol> we then take the encoded source, and the actual source, and we concatenate them.
15:52:18 <twistle> Hi, stranger
15:52:24 <oklopol> does this do you any good? i can do it with examples, in case you need something more concrete
15:52:28 <oklopol> MikeRiley isn't a stranger
15:52:32 <oklopol> more of a regular nowadays
15:52:38 <twistle> He is to me
15:52:38 <oklopol> befunge-98's creator, afaik
15:52:42 <oklopol> yes, most likely
15:52:47 <twistle> Oh...
15:52:54 <twistle> seriously?
15:52:57 <MikeRiley> or at least trying to be a regular!! eheheheh
15:53:11 <MikeRiley> Rc/Funge-98's creator actually
15:53:37 <oklopol> well you have such distinguishing mannerisms you are quite easy to spot, which makes you feel regular quite fast :)
15:53:45 <oklopol> Rc?
15:53:47 <MikeRiley> eeheheheheh
15:53:52 <oklopol> eeeehhhehehehehehe
15:53:55 <oklopol> indeed :)
15:54:22 <oklopol> twistle: seriously what?
15:54:35 <oklopol> seriously its creator, yes, and also seriously that is your quine
15:54:37 <MikeRiley> yeah,,,i never can hide from people...change names and people still know who i am!!! eheheheh
15:55:34 <oklopol> heh
15:56:19 <twistle> Can you give an annotated example?(Of a BF quine?)
15:56:37 <Deewiant> oklopol: not the creator of the language, of the first interpreter though
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15:57:25 <oklopol> Deewiant: i see. thought both the language and the interp
15:57:41 <oklopol> twistle: sure, there was one around
15:57:43 <Deewiant> chris pressey made the language
15:57:52 <Deewiant> or rather, collected the spec
15:58:09 <Deewiant> he's of the opinion that it was a joint effort of the mailing list at the time
15:59:09 <oklopol> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/quine/quine410_with_comments.b
15:59:23 <oklopol> oh, right, i've heard that name
15:59:31 <oklopol> but i prolly thought he was just 93
16:00:50 <twistle> I wish there was automated utility that would go through a wiki page and change 'push' to 'enqueue' and 'pop' to 'dequeue'
16:01:59 -!- dogface has joined.
16:03:19 <twistle> Hey, wait a minute!
16:03:44 * dogface waits
16:03:57 <twistle> I was the lsat preosn to eidt the wkii lsat nghit!
16:04:23 <dogface> Why are you tklanig lkie tihs?
16:04:37 <dogface> Prue aciednct?
16:05:16 * dogface adiovs lnog wdors so as to not hvae to keep tcrak of it all
16:06:38 <twistle> bceuase I jsut fnuod out taht as lnog as you keep the frist and lsat ltetrers of a wrod in palce, you wlil sitll be albe to udnertsand it!
16:06:58 <MikeRiley> i read that somewhere,,,found it quite amazing
16:07:17 <oklopol> i've heard that so many times i don't belive anyone hasn't
16:07:44 <twistle> no siht
16:07:55 <dogface> I've heard it so many times that I've heard it's actually not true.
16:09:10 <dogface> Wait, no, I haven't.
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16:11:53 <dogface> I did an experiment, though. I took one of those "Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde uinervtisy" texts and reversed the order of the consonants and vowels, to get something like "Ainrdccog to rcrhaaecsh at Cdigrabme uisetvriny".
16:12:12 <dogface> I then showed the result to a cute female classmate. She said, "Ooh, I love these!"
16:12:31 <dogface> She found it more difficult than usual.
16:13:18 <twistle> On a completely different note, what's your favorite text-editor
16:13:20 <twistle> ?
16:14:17 <Deewiant> if you put a lot of vowels together it's usually fairly impossible to understand
16:14:20 <Deewiant> as for editors, vim
16:14:26 <MikeRiley> vim here as well...
16:15:39 <Deewiant> and also, the legibility depends on the language
16:16:00 <twistle> What's your favorite one with syntax coloring?
16:16:05 <Deewiant> vim
16:18:03 <twistle> I like vim too, but what's your favorite GUI text editor?
16:18:08 <Deewiant> gvim
16:18:24 <twistle> :/
16:18:37 <Deewiant> I usually use it in GUI mode anyway
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16:18:45 <asiekierka> `lo
16:18:50 <Deewiant> 'lo
16:18:57 <twistle> hell'
16:19:01 <asiekierka> I'm wondering
16:19:14 <asiekierka> how to execute a piece of code if x == (somevaluehere) in BF
16:19:18 <asiekierka> If i could do that
16:19:26 <asiekierka> then my IRCbot will be working, actually
16:19:30 <Deewiant> subtract somevalue and use []
16:19:35 <Deewiant> as I said before :-P
16:19:47 <asiekierka> Yeah
16:19:50 <asiekierka> but can't you see
16:19:57 <asiekierka> that it'll run if x != somevaluehere
16:20:00 <twistle> Or look at the page on the wiki 'BF algorithms'
16:20:04 <asiekierka> or x > somevaluehere
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16:20:48 <oklopol> asiekierka: just set a flag if it's true, negate the flag and check for zero
16:20:52 <oklopol> this is a trivial problem
16:21:01 <oklopol> and i explained it to you a few days ago
16:21:12 <asiekierka> Wanted to do this
16:21:29 <asiekierka> but, negate the flag? No negative values here
16:21:30 <asiekierka> sorry
16:21:40 <oklopol> what do you mean no negative values?
16:21:45 <asiekierka> 0-255, 8bit cells, wraparound
16:21:52 <oklopol> 255 = -1
16:21:55 <asiekierka> Yeah
16:21:56 <asiekierka> oki
16:21:58 <oklopol> for all intents and purposes
16:22:05 <asiekierka> I see now
16:22:12 <asiekierka> But wait a minute...
16:22:31 <asiekierka> Oh wait
16:22:33 <asiekierka> i got it!
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16:34:18 <asiekierka> Haha, a bug.
16:34:24 <asiekierka> The bug was in the comment.
16:34:25 <asiekierka> It had an ,
16:34:30 <Slereah_> Heh.
16:34:33 <Slereah_> Silly man.
16:34:47 <asiekierka> NOW it works
16:34:48 <asiekierka> :)
16:34:49 <asiekierka> Yay.]
16:35:00 <asiekierka> Now i must do a detection for 3 variables
16:35:01 <asiekierka> For a 10
16:35:03 <asiekierka> then a `
16:35:07 <asiekierka> then a letter
16:35:12 <asiekierka> Yay for wasting code
16:35:22 <Slereah_> All code is wasted on BF.
16:36:22 <asiekierka> I'd SO like a BF compiler with macros
16:36:27 <asiekierka> as in, BF with macros to BF
16:36:36 <asiekierka> So i don't need to copy a piece of code every time
16:36:37 <asiekierka> just type
16:36:38 <asiekierka> #compare
16:36:41 <asiekierka> or something
16:37:06 <Deewiant> just write a perl script or some such that does that
16:37:24 <Deewiant> not too difficult I imagine
16:37:40 <asiekierka> Or just copy it anyway
16:38:04 <asiekierka> I will not break my BF experience! At all!
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16:40:36 <oklopol> asiekierka: there are languages that compile to bf
16:40:46 <asiekierka> But that breaks the experience
16:40:49 <asiekierka> of native BF writing
16:41:09 <oklopol> but yeah, you can just have macros and always before running just substitute the correct code
16:41:42 <asiekierka> Nope, that's cheating. I said i'm going to make a BF ircbot.
16:41:49 <asiekierka> Not a BF with macros ircbot
16:41:56 <asiekierka> I want everyone to know
16:42:01 <asiekierka> Thats why everything is commented.
16:42:07 <dogface> optbot!
16:42:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | actually I think that makes it worse.
16:42:12 <dogface> Thank you.
16:42:13 <asiekierka> :(
16:42:18 <Deewiant> optbot knows best
16:42:19 <optbot> Deewiant: http://rafb.net/p/ubHcrP65.html Have fun!
16:42:20 <asiekierka> Why does this match the situation
16:42:20 <asiekierka> xD
16:42:23 <asiekierka> But still
16:42:29 <asiekierka> I'd like to make it in native BF
16:42:42 <asiekierka> because it's really what the name of BF was made for.
16:42:49 <asiekierka> Making a BF ircbot is a BrainF**k.
16:43:49 <asiekierka> Yeah
16:43:58 <asiekierka> I already made a piece checking for the right header
16:44:08 <asiekierka> As BFirc (hopefully) appends a #13#10 after every message
16:44:11 <asiekierka> I can check for #10
16:44:17 <asiekierka> then my reserved `
16:44:20 <asiekierka> Then for the actual command
16:45:01 <oklopol> optbot: that wasn't a very fun page!
16:45:02 <optbot> oklopol: okay. I guess it'll be set in stone now then.
16:45:20 <oklopol> optbot: yes, that's what happens to bad little pages.
16:45:20 <optbot> oklopol: except the parentheses are not quite right
16:45:30 <oklopol> optbot: there are no parens.
16:45:31 <optbot> oklopol: don't bother with them, the last one will wreck your life
16:45:41 <oklopol> optbot: i didn't say i was gonna add any.
16:45:41 <optbot> oklopol: "round"
16:45:50 <Deewiant> optbot: square!
16:45:50 <optbot> Deewiant: note that [[Savant]] is essentially nothing more than a redirect to [[Autistic savant]]
16:45:56 <Deewiant> optbot: so noted.
16:45:57 <optbot> Deewiant: yes, you haven't supplied yours yet :)
16:46:06 <Deewiant> optbot: what now?
16:46:06 <optbot> Deewiant: eh..
16:46:08 <oklopol> yeah, Deewiant, what is yours!
16:46:21 <Deewiant> I wonder
16:46:24 <Deewiant> :-P
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16:49:46 <oklopol> ^bfcmd nop +++
16:49:51 <oklopol> ^bfcmd
16:49:59 <oklopol> hmm
16:50:01 <oklopol> ^help
16:50:53 <asiekierka> Hmm
16:51:00 <asiekierka> I wonder
16:51:04 <asiekierka> Why does BFBot not Work
16:51:28 <Deewiant> optbot: any ideas?
16:51:29 <optbot> Deewiant: List is a type taking one argument
16:51:35 <oklopol> ^bfcmd addone ,[+.,]
16:51:38 <oklopol> ^addone cool
16:52:14 <twistle> Is there any category on the wiki for esolangs which compile into esolangs?(a la FRAK)
16:52:16 <asiekierka> ^bf ++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>.
16:52:20 <oklopol> fizzie: tell me what is going on when you have the time
16:52:32 <oklopol> twistle: there's a matrix
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16:52:48 <twistle> ?
16:52:55 <oklopol> like
16:53:11 <oklopol> languages on the left and the top
16:53:23 <oklopol> and x's where there's a compiler from leftie to toppie
16:53:38 <asiekierka> Changed bfirc code a little
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16:53:42 <asiekierka> darktemplar's
16:53:48 <asiekierka> Now it'll add a 1 before each MSG
16:54:07 <ais523> twistle: http://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters IIRC
16:55:32 <twistle> ais523: that isn't what I meant
16:55:41 <ais523> ah, ok
16:55:46 <ais523> although it can at least be mentioned there
16:55:54 <twistle> Not one language written in another,
16:55:54 <ais523> apart from that, there isn't a cat for that I don't think
16:56:05 <twistle> One language compiled into another.
16:56:07 <ais523> twistle: EsoInterpreters includes compilers too IIRC
16:56:36 <Slereah_> They even include some strange stuff
16:56:50 <Slereah_> Like the UTM interpreter on BF, that's actually a tag system, IIRC
16:57:38 <ais523> but the universal turing machine interprets tag systems
16:57:47 <ais523> at least, the original one does
16:57:59 <ais523> so arguably it's an implementation of the UTM in BF
16:58:07 <ais523> just with different code
16:58:19 <Slereah_> Does it?
16:58:27 <ais523> Slereah_: I think so
16:58:50 <Slereah_> Tag systems never struck me as similar to turing machines
16:59:24 <ais523> Slereah_: no, but they're both TC
16:59:30 <ais523> the point is that you can compile any turing machine into a tag system
16:59:39 <ais523> thus a turing machine that can interpret tag systems is a UTM
16:59:51 <Slereah_> ais523 : But then, all those languages are TC
16:59:57 <ais523> well, yes
17:00:03 <Slereah_> That doesn't mean that we can just put crosses everywhere
17:00:05 <asiekierka> Yay, hopefully i found out what's wrong
17:00:06 <ais523> but that's not the point I'm getting at
17:00:19 <asiekierka> or not.
17:00:29 <ais523> I'm simply making a historical observation, which is that the first UTM interpreted tag systems
17:00:57 <Slereah_> You mean the "On computable number" one?
17:01:20 <ais523> the first published, I'm not sure which paper it was in, quite possibly that one
17:01:44 <Slereah_> I only remember a few programs in it, most notably the universal Turing machine
17:03:14 <twistle> Does anybody know of an esoteric language which looks like /d..s/./a..f/.s///s././f/s/g?
17:03:35 <Slereah_>  ///?
17:03:38 <Deewiant> sed?
17:03:54 <ais523> twistle: Thutu looks a bit like that too, although /// looks like it more
17:04:01 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashes
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17:04:08 <ais523> except Thutu has significant whitespace the same way as Python
17:05:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:06:04 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:06:32 <ais523> ugh, I have connection problems
17:06:37 <twistle> I mean like with dots
17:06:48 <ais523> Thutu uses dots quite a bit because it's regex-based
17:07:04 <ais523> and no reason you can't use . in ///, most /// programs only use a few characters to make them easier to write
17:09:21 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:10:26 <dogface> /d..s/./a..f/.s///s././f/s/g, eh? In ///, /d..s/./ ends up being a nop, then it outputs a..f, then /.s// is a nop, then /s././ is a nop, then f is output, then it halts.
17:10:32 <dogface> Kind of a boring /// program, then.
17:10:44 <ais523> dogface: interesting /// programs are very hard to write
17:10:59 <ais523> I tried for a week and ended up believing that it was possible but that I couldn't do it in a reasonable length of time
17:11:10 <dogface> I don't think I've ever seen a non-trivial /// quine. Have you?
17:11:16 <oklopol> no one has
17:11:18 <ais523> no, that's what I was trying to write
17:11:23 <oklopol> everyone has tried that
17:11:27 <ais523> at least, I was trying to write an infinite loop
17:11:31 <dogface> Someone prove it Turing-complete already!
17:11:32 <oklopol> everyone has failed
17:11:33 <ais523> which is very similar to writing a quine in ///
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17:11:59 <ais523> I'm convinced it's possible, though; it's just my program was buggy and I couldn't find the bugs
17:11:59 <twistle> I like my own itflabtijtslwi,
17:12:16 <twistle> which is basically /// with input
17:12:26 <twistle> from stdin
17:12:50 <ais523> twistle: that would be an absolute nightmare to use unless you could control stdin somehow
17:14:46 <dogface> I'd kind of prefer something like /foo/./ meaning replace foo with one character of input, then having . escaped just like any other character.
17:14:47 <twistle> No, it isn't
17:15:04 <dogface> I don't suppose anyone's considered that /// might not be Turing-complete. :-)
17:15:15 <ais523> twistle: you have to allow for every possible character that might come in on stding
17:15:17 <ais523> s/g$//
17:15:31 <ais523> dogface: I did consider that, but I'm pretty sure it is TC, just a nightmare to program in
17:15:41 <asiekierka> I hate BF.
17:15:48 <asiekierka> Hopefully i have a debugger
17:15:53 <ais523> asiekierka: why? it's one of the easiest esolangs around
17:15:58 <twistle> GGkodvaGG in itflabtijslwi means "replace kodva with one charactr of input'
17:16:36 <dogface> How do you output GGkodvaGG, then?
17:16:55 <ais523> dogface: presumably by outputting the Gs one at a time
17:17:15 <dogface> I guess you can \GGkodvaGG or something.
17:17:35 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
17:17:37 <dogface> Yay, I can has cheezburger.
17:18:22 <asiekierka> Yay
17:18:24 <asiekierka> I think i finally
17:18:25 <asiekierka> FINALYL
17:18:27 <asiekierka> FINALLY*
17:18:28 <asiekierka> fixed it.
17:18:29 <asiekierka> Whew.
17:18:39 <asiekierka> And it only has a command to output a single character. Lawl.
17:18:49 <oklopol> well show us
17:19:05 <ais523> dogface: G/#comment#//GkodvaGG
17:19:08 <asiekierka> I think i fixed it
17:19:09 <asiekierka> also
17:19:10 <asiekierka> #esoteric-blah
17:19:18 <asiekierka> shall appear soon
17:19:26 <asiekierka> Haha
17:19:27 <asiekierka> it worked
17:19:29 <asiekierka> but after
17:19:34 <asiekierka> a crash appeared
17:20:26 <twistle> [.,>>>>,+++<<<<--][.>]
17:20:39 <twistle> I wonder what that does.
17:21:21 <oklopol> twistle: what's it supposed to do?
17:21:26 <twistle> no idea
17:21:29 <oklopol> it does nothing sensible really
17:22:55 <oklopol> loops ( print character in current cell, ask two characters, put the first character - 2 in the current cell, store the other one + 3 in another cell ) when a \x2 is given as input, it ends
17:23:09 <oklopol> just that does absolutely nothing
17:23:19 <oklopol> you need to have a nonzero initial value
17:23:27 <oklopol> [.>] can just be removed
17:23:38 <oklopol> as can ,+++ really, unless it's used for something later
17:23:51 <dogface> "In mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them." -Johann von Neumann
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17:24:02 <ais523> dogface: good quote
17:24:24 <ais523> twistle: that code does nothing on its own because it's nothing but header comments
17:24:26 <twistle> Ok, ++++++[.,>>>>,+++<<<<--]
17:24:26 <dogface> Lies.
17:24:51 <oklopol> i dislike neumann somewhat, from what i've read he basically just commercialized turing's ideas
17:25:12 <dogface> Output, input, go there, input, add three, go back, subtract two, repeat until you've input character number 2.
17:25:22 <ais523> twistle: outputs /x6, then outputs every second character from stdin with 2 subtracted from its ascii code until you enter /x2
17:25:29 <oklopol> ya
17:25:32 <ais523> it also updates cell 4 uselessly
17:25:47 <twistle> INFINITELOOPLOOPLOOPLOOPLOOPLOOPLOOPLOOPLOOPLOOPLOOPLOOPLOOPLOOPLOOP
17:25:59 * twistle has a stack overload
17:28:03 <twistle>   /infiniteloop/infinitelooploop/
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17:31:44 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/bfirc_bot.zip - BFirc+my test script+bf filter thing+irclib for python
17:32:00 <asiekierka> Maybe you'll figure out what's wrongie wrong
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17:33:10 <asiekierka> Oh
17:33:12 <asiekierka> i think i may know
17:33:31 <twistle> +++++[->++<]>[->+++++<]>.
17:33:37 <twistle> What does it do?
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17:35:07 <asiekierka> Anyone has a looping mechanism that jumps to the cell that is 1?
17:35:11 <asiekierka> Moving left
17:35:16 <asiekierka> searching for a non-empty cell
17:35:39 <ais523> twistle: calculates 5*2*5 (which is 50), then outputs it
17:35:45 <ais523> as in, character 50
17:35:54 <ais523> which is 2 IIRC
17:36:07 <asiekierka> hello
17:36:16 <ais523> asiekierka: [<]
17:36:24 <asiekierka> for a NON-EMPTY cell
17:36:29 <ais523> oh
17:36:31 <asiekierka> or nope
17:36:32 <asiekierka> nope
17:36:34 <ais523> that's less trivial
17:36:36 <asiekierka> For a cell equaling 1
17:36:41 <ais523> you generally need to rely on having some working space
17:36:46 <asiekierka> Wait
17:36:46 <asiekierka> i know
17:36:48 <ais523> as in, knowing every other cell's blank
17:36:50 <asiekierka> Negation
17:36:53 <asiekierka> Or not
17:36:54 <asiekierka> :/
17:37:05 <asiekierka> You know
17:37:08 <asiekierka> i can be at up to cell 7
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17:37:10 <ais523> you can make some yourself but then the rest of the program has to be designed around it
17:37:11 <asiekierka> And i can waste any cell
17:37:16 <asiekierka> except cells 0 and 1
17:37:18 <asiekierka> cell 0 is always 0
17:37:22 <asiekierka> and cell 1 is always 1
17:37:39 <ais523> generally in BF you should plan which cells you're using as working space beforehand, it saves time in the long run
17:37:54 <asiekierka> I could basically add the moving parts in the loops
17:38:56 <twistle> I'd say a sloppy solution would be [code]<[code]<[code]
17:38:57 <pikhq> Or at the *very* least write down the cells you're using as you work on things.
17:39:07 <asiekierka> I think i know now
17:39:12 <asiekierka> I'm writing cells now with a debugger
17:39:12 <asiekierka> as in
17:39:17 <asiekierka> which loops stays at what cell
17:39:20 <asiekierka> loop stays*
17:39:47 <twistle> what would [<[code]] do?
17:40:05 <ais523> twistle: if the current cell is nonzero, go left and run [code]
17:40:18 <ais523> it's an if not a while because once the inner loop exits the outer loop necessarily exits
17:40:59 <asiekierka> Hopefully
17:41:01 <asiekierka> i fixed it
17:41:11 <asiekierka> With basically adding right < amounts in right places
17:41:27 <twistle> what about [<[code[<]?
17:41:38 <asiekierka> eeh
17:41:41 <asiekierka> 3x[ and 1x]
17:41:41 <asiekierka> Also
17:41:42 <asiekierka> i fixed it
17:41:48 <asiekierka> no need to tinkerinker
17:41:49 <twistle> I mean [<[code]<]
17:43:02 <asiekierka> ASIEBOT TEST 2 - #esoteric-blah exclusive
17:47:18 <asiekierka> I hate this.
17:47:23 <asiekierka> I think i must write my own interp for this.
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18:05:49 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers5/greu.jpg <- this is my unhappy face >:|
18:05:55 <Slereah_> Damn connection
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18:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | that could be fun :).
18:44:22 <fizzie> oklopol; What's going on is that I implemented the "^bf turns brainfuck into bytecode and combines consecutive +-<>, then interprets that" but then was too busy to implement the ^bfcmd macro part.
18:44:43 <fizzie> I will do them with a bit different syntax this time around, too.
18:56:31 <oklopol> ^bfcmd addone ,[+.,]
18:56:36 <oklopol> why does this no work?
18:56:44 <oklopol> or did you just explain that
18:56:54 <oklopol> ohhh
18:57:02 <oklopol> right it's a remake
18:58:20 <fizzie> The interpreter itself seemed to work, at least rot13 and fib ran on it. But it needs the glue for command registration, and I've been trying to write it so that I can more easily plug other languages in.
18:59:11 <fizzie> I'll see if I can get the basic ^bfcmd replacement done today. Just arrived back from our new apartment, lots of real-world things to take care of when trying to organize a move.
19:00:17 <Deewiant> fizzie: zem.fi still claims it's befunge.org
19:00:51 <fizzie> Right, I need to remove the text from there and deconfigure other stuff.
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19:32:27 <asiekierka> Hmm
19:36:01 <psygnisfive> lalala
19:36:06 <psygnisfive> oklopol
19:36:07 <psygnisfive> i love you
19:36:08 <psygnisfive> lalala
19:36:38 -!- sebbu has joined.
19:37:44 <oklopol> well that's a shocker
19:37:52 <psygnisfive> :)
19:37:54 <oklopol> psygnisfive: cookies or not?
19:38:05 <psygnisfive> you're offering, or you're want?
19:38:12 <oklopol> i am want, mostly.
19:38:22 <psygnisfive> i am not have D:
19:38:27 <fizzie> You can has!
19:39:12 <oklopol> psygnisfive: boolean is the question do answer.
19:39:16 -!- CrapBot has joined.
19:39:29 <asiekierka> Yay
19:39:31 <asiekierka> my bot is there
19:39:38 <ais523> CrapBot?
19:39:39 <oklopol> CrapBot: you're one crappy bot
19:39:44 <psygnisfive> what oklopol
19:39:45 <ais523> optbot: meet CrapBot!
19:39:45 <optbot> ais523: it's awesome
19:39:47 <asiekierka> Also, it logs the messages
19:39:47 <asiekierka> No wait it does not
19:39:49 -!- CrapBot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:39:51 <asiekierka> Yes it does
19:39:53 <ais523> asiekierka: optbot likes it, anyway
19:39:54 <optbot> ais523: the problem with it is that the graphics are 2D, and bf works in 1D
19:40:02 <asiekierka> it's my BFirc client.
19:40:07 <asiekierka> At least connection/disconnection work
19:40:13 <asiekierka> And it logs the messages (!)
19:40:20 <asiekierka> asiekierka>Yay
19:40:21 <asiekierka> asiekierka>my bot is there
19:40:21 <asiekierka> ais523>CrapBot?
19:40:21 <asiekierka> oklopol>CrapBot: you're one crappy bot
19:40:21 <asiekierka> psygnisfive>what oklopol
19:40:21 <asiekierka> ais523>optbot: meet CrapBot!
19:40:22 <optbot> asiekierka: As in it isn't so, or what?
19:40:23 <asiekierka> optbot>ais523: it's awesome
19:40:23 <optbot> asiekierka: the comments arent worth reading
19:40:23 <oklopol> err made in bf or what?
19:40:24 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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19:40:47 <asiekierka> Agreed with optbot.
19:40:47 <optbot> asiekierka: Gregor is a person
19:40:53 <asiekierka> Brb.
19:40:55 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie[brb].
19:41:01 <psygnisfive> D:
19:41:15 <oklopol> psygnisfive: okay can you at least just give me a random boolean value?
19:41:31 <psygnisfive> no!
19:41:33 <psygnisfive> yes!
19:41:33 <Deewiant> optbot: random boolean please
19:41:34 <optbot> Deewiant: eh
19:41:35 <psygnisfive> i dont know!
19:41:36 <psygnisfive> D:
19:41:37 <Deewiant> oklopol: ^
19:41:47 <oklopol> Deewiant: is that a "no"? :D
19:41:55 <oklopol> optbot: be clearer
19:41:56 <optbot> oklopol: the evaluation part is top-down too.
19:41:56 <psygnisfive> oklopol
19:41:59 <psygnisfive> ill bake you cookies
19:42:00 <Deewiant> interpret as you wish
19:42:06 <Deewiant> optbot: is "eh" true or false
19:42:06 <optbot> Deewiant: you need (null?) in (Con) as well
19:42:11 <oklopol> optbot: still not satisfied.
19:42:12 <optbot> oklopol: *be
19:42:17 <oklopol> optbot: true or false
19:42:17 <optbot> oklopol: remainder
19:42:20 <oklopol> :D
19:42:24 <oklopol> optbot: true or false
19:42:24 <optbot> oklopol: smart people are more likely to think before procreating, so more of them either become good parents or never have children. I somehow imagine the latter is more common.
19:42:25 <Deewiant> optbot: no, booleans are fine, we don't need nulls
19:42:25 <optbot> Deewiant: if it will replace all bots, one char is enough
19:42:33 <Deewiant> optbot: quite, but is it t or f
19:42:33 <optbot> Deewiant: sorry
19:42:42 <Deewiant> optbot: that's not very helpful
19:42:42 <optbot> Deewiant: And yes, there is a solution.
19:42:43 <oklopol> optbot: true or false
19:42:43 <optbot> oklopol: :)
19:42:51 <Deewiant> optbot: jerk
19:42:51 <optbot> Deewiant: hehe
19:42:53 <oklopol> what a fucker
19:42:54 <Deewiant> :-E
19:42:56 <oklopol> optbot: true or false
19:42:56 <optbot> oklopol: and even when I do I often finish typing and press enter anyway, even if it's redundant
19:43:04 <oklopol> good to know
19:43:05 <Deewiant> optbot: how dare you laugh at me
19:43:06 <optbot> Deewiant: how does / split the list?
19:43:10 <oklopol> optbot: true or false??
19:43:10 <optbot> oklopol: 34 ++++++++[>++++++++++++>>><<<<-]>+. [40]
19:43:11 <Deewiant> optbot: it's magic
19:43:11 <optbot> Deewiant: he use of runtime supplied hash functions via callback."
19:43:21 <Deewiant> oklopol: run that and see what it prints
19:43:21 <oklopol> i'm sure that was a question about Cise
19:43:25 <oklopol> :D
19:43:30 <Deewiant> if it's 0, it's false, otherwise true
19:43:46 <oklopol> :D
19:43:52 <oklopol> well that would be true then
19:43:58 <oklopol> which would not be very fair
19:44:03 <Deewiant> why not
19:44:07 <oklopol> optbot: i'm running out of time, true or false?
19:44:07 <optbot> oklopol: ie NMISC A B C 0 is forced to jump to the next instruction, and NMISC A B C 4 will skip the next instruction if bit33 is clear (ie no carry)
19:44:14 <Deewiant> optbot: ahh
19:44:14 <optbot> Deewiant: the transition part will definitely change anyway, so no use explaining that
19:44:17 <oklopol> optbot: i'm running out of time, really, true or false?
19:44:17 <Deewiant> optbot: yes
19:44:17 <optbot> oklopol: now you're just pissing and moaning. I made a game for you guys to enjoy. Play it and have fun or do something else and shut the hell up.
19:44:17 <optbot> Deewiant: yeah
19:44:26 <Deewiant> :-EEE
19:44:29 <oklopol> that was rodger's comment
19:44:34 <oklopol> about gulesfisher
19:44:41 <oklopol> optbot: true/false?
19:44:41 <optbot> oklopol: even though you only need either of them
19:44:44 <oklopol> yes
19:44:48 <oklopol> i only need one of them
19:44:51 <Deewiant> optbot: we're not playing a game, this is a life/death situation
19:44:51 <optbot> Deewiant: hrm.  there is sort of a band between esoteric and joke language... sort of an "I DARE you to implement this"...: *W, SARTRE, Magenta, Tamerlane, TURKEY BOMB, probably others... they could be jokes, or esolangs, depending on the weather... wonder if they deserve their own category...
19:44:54 <oklopol> please just fucking give it to me
19:44:58 <oklopol> optbot: true/false?
19:44:58 <optbot> oklopol: i think i made a proof of some sort myself
19:45:01 <Deewiant> optbot: you're sidestepping the issue
19:45:01 <optbot> Deewiant: indeed
19:45:09 <Deewiant> optbot: so which is it
19:45:10 <oklopol> optbot: well please step back
19:45:10 <optbot> Deewiant: char* doesn't support unary minus of course
19:45:10 <optbot> oklopol: it'd be a state with more than one transition to it
19:45:11 <ais523> oklopol: optbot said "yeah" to Deewiant, why not just use that?
19:45:12 <optbot> ais523: ok fixed
19:45:21 <oklopol> ais523: sounds feasible.
19:45:27 * oklopol goes to the shopper ->
19:45:44 <Deewiant> "yeah" could equally well be "yeah, I don't know" or something
19:45:52 <Deewiant> optbot: was that a sincere "yeah"?
19:45:52 <optbot> Deewiant: does it?
19:45:57 <Deewiant> optbot: I'm asking you
19:45:57 <optbot> Deewiant: (Canvas is slow as shit and doesn't work on quite a number of browsers.)
19:46:00 <Deewiant> optbot: quite
19:46:00 <optbot> Deewiant: since when can you not repeat enumerator names in different enums >_<
19:46:14 <Deewiant> optbot: depends on the language
19:46:14 <optbot> Deewiant: but not 32-bit funge types on 64-bit
19:46:18 <Deewiant> optbot: quite
19:46:18 <optbot> Deewiant: ObjC is actually pretty esoteric in some ways. Probably due to SmallTalk.
19:46:21 <Deewiant> optbot: aye
19:46:21 <optbot> Deewiant: kala den pame kala edo mesa....
19:46:26 <Deewiant> optbot: eh?
19:46:26 <optbot> Deewiant: ug
19:46:31 <Deewiant> optbot: mu
19:46:32 <optbot> Deewiant: @move 5
19:53:28 <asie[brb]> Back
19:53:58 -!- asie[brb] has changed nick to asiekierka.
19:54:07 <asiekierka> So, returning to my BFIRC botg
19:54:08 <asiekierka> bot*
19:54:18 <asiekierka> I have the channel part
19:54:24 <asiekierka> Now comes the file-reading part
19:54:29 <asiekierka> then the BF interpreting part
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20:07:30 <asiekierka> Adding log handling for everything
20:09:06 -!- CrapBot has joined.
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20:11:14 <asiekierka> Whew. All the handling should be done.
20:11:14 -!- asiekierka has left (?).
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20:11:24 <asiekierka> Yes, yes it is.
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20:12:28 <asiekierka> Oki, no more testing.
20:12:37 <asiekierka> for now
20:12:50 -!- LinuS has joined.
20:13:21 <asiekierka> Yayz, the whole MSG handling for logs is done.
20:13:34 -!- olsner has joined.
20:13:37 <asiekierka> Now i must write the file-reading part, then the interpreter itself.
20:22:13 <asiekierka> Yay
20:22:17 <asiekierka> the file-reading part is done
20:22:27 <asiekierka> Now goes the BF-interpretation part
20:27:16 <asiekierka> + - < > implemented
20:27:21 <asiekierka> Now go teh loopy loops
20:27:51 <asiekierka> or not, maybe the buffer implementation shall be better
20:28:51 <asiekierka> Nope
20:28:54 <asiekierka> too bored for now
20:29:51 <LinuS> i can't code at all at night :(
20:33:38 <psygnisfive> youre not a true geek
20:34:05 <LinuS> it seems so.. i lost concentration at all after 7 PM
20:34:18 <asiekierka> It's 9:34 PM here
20:34:37 <asiekierka> And i just can't think of more advanced stuff than +, -, >, < at that time
20:35:08 <psygnisfive> hahaha
20:35:09 <LinuS> it's 9:34 there aswell
20:35:28 <asiekierka> Well
20:35:30 <asiekierka> sometimes i can
20:35:44 <asiekierka> But not as advanced as getting a whole buffer and i/o for it along with loops
20:36:02 <LinuS> i can when i'm in a study period at university
20:36:14 <LinuS> i also can study something at night
20:36:17 <LinuS> but now..in summer..
20:36:31 <LinuS> 13-19 is the only time in which i can do something.. :P
20:36:40 <asiekierka> In summer i'm even better at thinking
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20:42:54 <ais523> TUSHO LOGREAD NOTICE: You fail at setting Anagolf Brainfuck problems.
20:42:56 <ais523> your output:
20:42:56 <ais523> Hello World!
20:42:56 <ais523> expected:
20:42:56 <ais523> Hello, world!
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20:55:40 <ais523> $/='!';eval join '',@{{'+','$t[$p]++;','-','$t[$p]--;','<','$p--;','>','$p++;','[','while($t[$p]){',']','}',',','$t[$p]=ord getc;','.','print chr $t[$p];'}}{split //,<>}
20:56:13 <ais523> actually,
20:56:17 <ais523> $/='!';eval join'',@{{'+','$t[$p]++;','-','$t[$p]--;','<','$p--;','>','$p++;','[','while($t[$p]){',']','}',',','$t[$p]=ord getc;','.','print chr $t[$p];'}}{split//,<>}
20:59:44 <ais523> $/='!';eval join'',@{{'+','$t[$p]++;','-','$t[$p]--;','<','$p--;','>','$p++;','[','while($t[$p]){',']','}',',','$t[$p]=ord getc;','.','print chr$t[$p];'}}{split//,<>}
20:59:46 <ais523> (saves one character)
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21:11:02 <fizzie> There are probably still bugs in the fungot. And the syntax has changed.
21:11:17 <ais523> is fungot human or a bot?
21:11:43 <fizzie> A Funge-98 bot.
21:11:51 <fizzie> ^def echo bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>[.>]
21:11:51 <fungot> Defined.
21:11:52 <ais523> fizzie: how is it operated?
21:11:54 <fizzie> ^show
21:11:54 <fungot> echo
21:11:56 <fizzie> ^show echo
21:11:56 <fungot> >1,[>1,]>999[>999]>1[.>1]>999[>999]+32.>1[.>1]
21:12:00 <fizzie> ^echo foo
21:12:00 <fungot> foo foo
21:12:03 <fizzie> Like that.
21:12:35 <ais523> fizzie: that tape seems to be hardcoded at length 1000
21:12:53 <ais523> also, that looks like Brainfuck not Funge-98
21:12:54 <fizzie> Yes, it is. And the bytecode decompiler doesn't bother changing 999 to -1 for display.
21:12:59 <fizzie> The bot is written in Funge-98.
21:13:07 <fizzie> And executes Brainfuck programs.
21:13:12 <ais523> ah, written in Funge but implements Brainfuck?
21:13:15 <fizzie> Yes.
21:13:20 <ais523> that's great
21:13:24 <ais523> does it do anything else?
21:13:50 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
21:13:56 <fizzie> Not yet, but it should be possible to add more languages.
21:14:10 <fizzie> It also has operator-only ^reload, ^code and ^raw commands, but those aren't exactly interesting.
21:14:13 <fizzie> ^help
21:14:14 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf
21:14:42 <ais523> fizzie: any way to define a command that's too long for one line of IRC?
21:15:11 <fizzie> Not currently. There was a ^bfcmd/^bfadd pair that could be used to append to a program, but it got scrapped when I wrote the bytecode-based brainfuck interpreter.
21:16:17 <fizzie> I'm planning to add something like "^str set 0 foo", "^str add 0 bar", "^def foobar bf str://0"; and maybe even "^def foobar bf http://..."
21:16:23 <ais523> that's a pity, really, I have a 984-char BF program (a slightly modified version of a program written by Keymaker) that inteprets Underload, in a way designed for use as an EgoBot daemon
21:16:31 -!- Corun has joined.
21:16:40 <ais523> and I think the original could work on fungot, the way its syntax seems to work
21:17:27 <fizzie> ^bf >,[>,]<[.<]!brainfuck takes input like this
21:17:27 <fungot> siht ekil tupni sekat kcufniarb
21:17:42 <fizzie> But with defined commands anything after the command name becomes the input.
21:20:23 <fizzie> ^reload
21:20:24 <fungot> Reloaded.
21:20:41 <fizzie> Persistence is also missing, it could save the defined commands to a file or something.
21:21:05 <fizzie> (A simple ^reload won't kill them, but restarting the bot will.)
21:21:20 <fizzie> ^def rev bf >,[>,]<[.<]
21:21:20 <fungot> Defined.
21:21:31 <fizzie> ^rev tobtpo
21:21:32 <fungot> optbot
21:21:32 <optbot> fungot: |0> and |0>/sqrt(2) are different thinges.
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21:27:50 <oklopol> ^def cool bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:27:51 <fungot> Defined.
21:27:53 <oklopol> ^cool o
21:27:53 <fungot> Z
21:28:04 <oklopol> ^def bf bf bf
21:28:04 <fungot> Defined.
21:28:13 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
21:28:14 <fungot> A
21:28:16 <oklopol> :<
21:28:22 <oklopol> fizzie: damn you
21:30:37 <fizzie> Only after handling built-ins does it go and check user-defined commands.
21:30:40 <fizzie> ^show cool
21:30:41 <fungot> +90.
21:31:00 <fizzie> ^def cool bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
21:31:00 <fungot> Defined.
21:31:02 <fizzie> ^show cool
21:31:02 <fungot> +8[>1+8>999+255]>1+1.
21:31:03 <ais523> ^show bf
21:31:15 <ais523> ah, it's the null string
21:31:16 <fizzie> Hmm.
21:31:23 <fizzie> Oh, right.
21:32:26 <fizzie> It really should use <1 and -1 instead of >999 and +255, but the current ^show is so nice and simple.
21:33:31 <ais523> ^def dbfi
21:33:31 <ais523> >>>+http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=-]>>[-]++>+>+++++++[<++++>>++<-]++>>+>+>+++++[>++>++++++<<-]+>>>,<++[[>[->>]<[>>]<<-]<[<]<+>>[>]>[<+>-[[<+>-]>]<[[[-]<]++<-[<+++++++++>[<->-]>>]>>]]<<]<]<[[<]>[[>]>>[>>]+[<<]<[<]<+>>-]>[>]+[->>]<<<<[[<<]<[<]+<<[+>+<<-[>-->+<<-[>+<[>>+<<-]]]>[<+>-]<]++>>-->[>]>>[>>]]<<[>>+<[[<]<]>[[<<]<[<]+[-<+>>-[<<+>++>-[<->[<<+>>-]<[>+<-]>]>[>]>]>[>>]>>]<<[>>+>>+>>]<<[->>>>>>>>]<<[>.>>>>>>>]<<[>->>>>>]<<[>,>>
21:33:31 <ais523> >]<<[>+>]<<[+<<]<]
21:33:31 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
21:33:43 <ais523> whoops, stupid automatic substitution
21:34:08 <ais523> ^def dbfi >>>+[[ -]>>[-]++>+>+++++++[<++++>>++<-]++>>+>+>+++++[>++>++++++<<-]+>>>,<++[[ >[->>]<[>>]<<-]<[<]<+>>[>]>[<+>-[[ <+>-]>]<[[[
21:34:08 <ais523> -]<]++<-[<+++++++++>[<->-]>>]>>]]<<]<]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=<]>[[>]>>[>>]+[<<]<[<]<+>>-]>[>]+[->>]<<<<[[<<]<[<]+<<[+>+<<-[>-->+<<-[>+<[>>+<<-]]]>[<+>-]<]++>>-->[>]>>[>>]]<<[>>+<[[<]<]>[[<<]<[<]+[-<+>>-[<<+>++>-[<->[<<+>>-]<[>+<-]>]>[>]>]>[>>]>>]<<[>>+>>+>>]<<[->>>>>>>>]<<[>.>>>>>>>]<<[>->>>>>]<<[>,>>>]<<[>+>]<<[+<<]<]
21:34:08 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
21:34:45 <ais523> ^def dbfi >>>+[[-]>>[-]++>+>+++++++[<++++>>++<-]++>>+>+>+++++[>++>++++++<<-]+>>>,<++[[>[->>]<[>>]<<-]<[<]<+>>[>]>[<+>-[[<+>-]>]<[[[-]<]++<-[<+++++++++>[<->-]>>]>>]]<<]<]<[[<]>[[>]>>[>>]+[<<]<[<]<+>>-]>[>]+[->>]<<<<[[<<]<[<]+<<[+>+<<-[>-->+<<-[>+<[>>+<<-]]]>[<+>-]<]++>>-->[>]>>[>>]]<<[>>+<[[<]<]>[[<<]<[<]+[-<+>>-[<<+>++>-[<->[<<+>>-]]]<[>+<-]>]>[>]>]>[>>]>>]<<[>>+>>+>>]<<[->>>>>>>>]<<[>.>>>>>>>]<<[>->>>>>]<<[>,>>>]<<[>+>]<<[+<<]<]
21:34:45 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
21:34:48 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
21:34:51 <ais523> ^def dbfi bf >>>+[[-]>>[-]++>+>+++++++[<++++>>++<-]++>>+>+>+++++[>++>++++++<<-]+>>>,<++[[>[->>]<[>>]<<-]<[<]<+>>[>]>[<+>-[[<+>-]>]<[[[-]<]++<-[<+++++++++>[<->-]>>]>>]]<<]<]<[[<]>[[>]>>[>>]+[<<]<[<]<+>>-]>[>]+[->>]<<<<[[<<]<[<]+<<[+>+<<-[>-->+<<-[>+<[>>+<<-]]]>[<+>-]<]++>>-->[>]>>[>>]]<<[>>+<[[<]<]>[[<<]<[<]+[-<+>>-[<<+>++>-[<->[<<+>>-]]]<[>+<-]>]>[>]>]>[>>]>>]<<[>>+>>+>>]<<[->>>>>>>>]<<[>.>>>>>>>]<<[>->>>>>]<<[>,>>>]<<[>+>]<<[+<<]<]
21:34:51 <fungot> Defined.
21:35:17 <ais523> ^dbfi >,[>,]<.[<.]!testing
21:35:18 <fungot> gnitset.
21:35:35 <ais523> ^dbfi >,[>,]<[.<]!testing
21:35:36 <fungot> gnitset
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21:36:56 <fizzie> There are some limits for amount of brainfuck instructions executed and amount of output generated.
21:37:12 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+[.]
21:37:12 <fungot> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA[ ...
21:37:26 <ais523> why that [ at the end?
21:37:29 <fizzie> Hmm, that last [ there must be a bug.
21:37:46 <fizzie> Probably adds the " ..." in an incorrect location, or there's something extra in the stack.
21:37:53 <ais523> fizzie: add an Underload interp next, it's not too hard to write in most langs, although harder than BF
21:39:00 <fizzie> ^bf >++++++++++>+>+[[+++++[>++++++++<-]>.<++++++[>--------<-]+<<<]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<<+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<<<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<<<]
21:39:02 <fungot> 0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459[ ...
21:39:08 <fizzie> That one also has that [ in there.
21:39:23 <ais523> that's a pretty short BF program for what it does!
21:39:31 <ais523> are you using 32-bit cells?
21:39:37 <ais523> if so then that's simpler
21:39:46 <fizzie> No, the cells are one byte wide.
21:39:59 <fizzie> And the program is not mine. :/
21:40:02 <ais523> so it's bignum Fibonnacci
21:40:10 <ais523> probably harder to write than a BF interp, for that matter
21:40:32 <fizzie> Very possible. The interpreter just needed some persistence, not cleverness.
21:40:51 <ais523> I have a BF interp as my new quit message
21:40:52 -!- ais523 has left (?).
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21:41:41 <ais523> but it didn't come up for some reason
21:42:11 <fizzie> ^bf +[]
21:42:17 <fungot>  ...out of time!
21:42:42 <ais523> ^help
21:42:42 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf
21:42:53 <fizzie> That limit does not generate any extra characters, even though the "append a message and quit" is done the same way.
21:42:58 <ais523> ^def hi dbfi ,[.,]!Hello, world!
21:42:59 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
21:43:00 <ais523> ^hi
21:43:18 <ais523> fizzie: it doesn't allow def in defined languages?
21:43:59 <fizzie> Well, no. ^def is not really a simple macro thing, it keeps the brainfuck in the compiled bytecode form.
21:45:18 <fizzie> ^bf ,[.,]+[]!What about the "..." message this time?
21:45:44 <fizzie> Hmmmm...
21:45:59 <fizzie> Your '^hi' command killeded it. :p
21:46:04 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:46:19 <ais523> fizzie: how did I manage that?
21:46:22 <ais523> it wasn't even defined...
21:46:30 <fizzie> Maybe it breaks on all undefined commands.
21:47:01 <fizzie> That doesn't seem to be the case.
21:48:07 <fizzie> Heh, it seems like it defines the "hi" command, and only after that checks if the lang is supported.
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21:50:41 <fizzie> ^def test nosuchlang sillycode
21:50:41 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
21:50:45 <fizzie> ^test it
21:50:51 <fizzie> ^show
21:50:51 <fungot> test
21:50:53 <fizzie> ^show test
21:51:25 <fizzie> Too tired to rearrange code, so I just made it an empty brainfuck command if the language is not recognized.
21:55:05 <fizzie> Um.
21:55:15 <fizzie> There seems to be another bug in there somewhere.
21:55:50 <fizzie> The output of '^show test' corrupted the next input message. I think I'll close that thing down before it dies and fix it later.
21:56:19 <fizzie> ^raw QUIT :Hit an @.
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23:12:35 <ais523> hi tusho
23:13:29 <tusho> haha hi ais523
23:13:30 <tusho> :)
23:13:54 <tusho> bit slow though, ais523
23:13:56 <tusho> almost a whole hour
23:14:17 <ais523> yes...
23:14:22 <ais523> I didn't expect you to be here tonight
23:14:39 <ais523> because it was so long before you turned up
23:14:48 <ais523> incidentally your BF-fixed thing on anagolf is also broken
23:14:53 <tusho> yes, I was out for the day
23:14:54 <tusho> and I know
23:14:54 <tusho> :P
23:15:02 <tusho> (Got up at 5am. Only had like 2-3 hours of sleep. Yeaaah...)
23:15:04 <ais523> I have a new sig though
23:15:07 -!- ais523 has left (?).
23:15:07 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:15:14 <ais523> did it show up?
23:15:19 <tusho> yes
23:15:22 <tusho> well
23:15:24 <tusho> [23:15:07] ← ais523 left the channel. ("$/='!';eval join'',@{{'+','$t[$p]++;','-','$t[$p]--;','<','$p--;','>','$p++;','[','while($t[$p]){',']','}',',','$t[$p]=ord ge)
23:15:25 <tusho> no
23:15:38 <ais523> bah, truncated?
23:15:40 <tusho> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?main <- lol wut
23:15:41 <tusho> and yes
23:16:41 <ais523> $/='!';eval join'',@{{'+','$t[$p]++;','-','$t[$p]--;','<','$p--;','>','$p++;','[','while($t[$p]){',']','}',',','$t[$p]=ord getc;','.','print chr$t[$p];'}}{split//,<>}
23:16:44 <ais523> the whole thing
23:16:50 <tusho> brainfuck?
23:16:54 <ais523> yes
23:16:55 <ais523> golfed
23:17:01 <tusho> not what I'd have expected from you :D
23:17:02 <ais523> it was my attempt at your BF-golf thing
23:17:10 <ais523> but it's too slow on the second challenge
23:17:47 <ais523> tusho: why not?
23:18:06 <ais523> I especially like the ',',',' bit, that's really hard to parse by eye
23:18:11 <tusho> ais523: you never seemed to take an interest in brainfuck, i guess
23:18:30 <ais523> tusho: nah, I'm interested in Brainfuck, although not fanatical about it
23:19:16 <ais523> also I accidentally said "moth languages" in #nethack due to a typo and everyone started laughing
23:23:45 <ais523> I was talking about inventing an esolang to rewrite nethack into
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2008-08-19:

00:28:14 <tusho> [[True story, I swear: Major software company in Andalusia. A mate of mine is coding using vi. His supervisor walks up behind him and after spying over his shoulder for a couple of minutes, interrupts his work and demands to know what he's doing. "Coding." "But you must use Word." She says. "Why?" "Well, it has a lot of advantages. For example the 'undo' function..."]] -- reddit comment
00:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://your.site/funge/fingerprints/name.
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01:02:10 <tusho> optbot!
01:02:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | whether the alphabet is or isn't a notation for sounds depends on the language.
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05:59:31 <psygnisfive> i know lots about the alphabet. :D
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06:25:24 <oklopol> great topic :D
06:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Whee..
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06:58:22 <fizzie> optbot; You just had to change the topic to something uninspired like that when someone pointed out the previous was great?
06:58:22 <optbot> fizzie: !raw quit
06:58:46 <fizzie> optbot; And stop trying to trick me to quit. I am not a silly bot!
06:58:46 <optbot> fizzie: *Goldbach
06:59:12 <fizzie> optbot; Huh? "Silly Goldbach"?
06:59:12 <optbot> fizzie: the app "shoes" must be started from /path/to/shoes
06:59:30 <fizzie> optbot; Now you're just making no sense again.
06:59:30 <optbot> fizzie: ~exec self.print_callbacks()
06:59:45 <fizzie> optbot; Not a bot! How many times I have to tell you this?
06:59:46 <optbot> fizzie: that's what that error always means
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12:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 2 ais523: daemon deadfish funge93.
13:00:21 <tusho> oh my god
13:00:26 <tusho> duke nukem forever...
13:00:27 <tusho> is ...
13:00:32 <tusho> DONE
13:00:39 <tusho> oh wait
13:00:41 <tusho> Damnit!
13:00:42 <tusho> No it's not
13:01:49 <Deewiant> what possessed you to think it was
13:05:08 <tusho> Deewiant: slashdot's incompetent editors
13:05:11 <tusho> http://slashdot.org/
13:05:20 <tusho> "OMG!! DNF RELEASED! Update: wait no it was another game"
13:06:00 <LinuS> lol
13:07:08 <Deewiant> heh, nice tags
13:07:09 <Deewiant> kdawsonsucks, badsummary, wrongsummary, !dukenukemforever
13:08:53 <tusho> why didn't they just nuke the fecking story
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14:51:36 <asiekierka> Hi
14:52:07 <asiekierka> I am thinking about an esolang where you're a shopper.
14:52:09 <asiekierka> Basically
14:52:29 <asiekierka> product milk "Mustang Milk" 130
14:52:42 <asiekierka> Means a milk the brand "Mustang Milk" costs 130 cents
14:52:54 <asiekierka> or variable "Mustang Milk" from the "milk" array equals to 130
14:54:07 <oklopol> oh i was thinking more something like constraint satisfaction
14:54:33 <asiekierka> take "Mustang Milk" OR take milk "Mustang Milk" will put "Mustang Milk" in the baset
14:54:35 <asiekierka> basket*
14:54:40 <asiekierka> or put 130 on the stack
14:55:02 <oklopol> hmm
14:55:11 <oklopol> actually i'm not sure what my exact idea is
14:55:16 <oklopol> kinda lost it
14:55:42 <asiekierka> putback will remove the topmost item from the stack
14:55:47 <oklopol> the shopping cart is clearly a set, not a stack :)
14:55:58 <asiekierka> But it'll be used like a stack
14:56:00 <asiekierka> As in
14:56:10 <asiekierka> you can only access the topmost item(s)
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14:56:27 <oklopol> Slereah_: what's the up?
14:56:48 <asiekierka> addprices will add the 2 topmost product prices together, remove the products, and put the total price on the stack.
14:57:29 <asiekierka> subprices will subtract the first (topmost) with the second (second topmost).
14:57:36 <asiekierka> Also, you can access a little paper piece
14:57:39 <asiekierka> that can store one digit
14:57:52 <asiekierka> addpaper will add 1 to the paper piece
14:57:56 <asiekierka> subpaper will subtract 1 from it
14:58:27 <asiekierka> I must write some sort of docs about it
15:00:03 <asiekierka> Shop will be a lot like chef, but not so
15:06:10 <Slereah_> oklopol : Wat
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16:03:52 <LinuS> has anyone tought about esolang about 2d platform?
16:04:01 <LinuS> jump, killenemy, kick
16:04:02 <asiekierka> nope
16:04:03 <LinuS> :P
16:04:14 <LinuS> 2d platform game i mean, mario and such
16:04:17 <asiekierka> But it isn't a that good idea.
16:04:23 <LinuS> i see
16:04:24 <Slereah_> I once had an idea of an esolang based on Portal
16:04:29 <asiekierka> EXPLAIN
16:04:35 <Slereah_> Mostly based on Rube.
16:04:37 <asiekierka> Please, for the love of my Portal obsession, explain!
16:04:41 <LinuS> lol
16:04:49 <Slereah_> Well, do you know Rube?
16:05:25 <asiekierka> I can check it
16:05:41 <asiekierka> {{oh god, not lagged IE typing again!}}
16:05:46 <Slereah_> Rube is already pretty 2D platform to begin with
16:05:52 <Slereah_> My idea was some sort of Rube.
16:05:54 <Slereah_> But now!
16:05:59 <Slereah_> You're thinking with portals!
16:06:34 <asiekierka> Is there a cake command?
16:06:49 <Slereah_> Well, the Cake was supposed to be the end of the program
16:06:58 <Slereah_> Once that L reached it
16:07:01 <asiekierka> but it can't
16:07:05 <asiekierka> You can't put cake
16:07:09 <asiekierka> THE CAKE IS A LIE
16:07:10 <Slereah_> (L being <insert applicant name here>
16:07:28 <Slereah_> Because she kinda looks like an L with her big feet contraptions
16:07:41 <asiekierka> If you'll put cake, it isn't Portal-compilant anymore. It can only have cake AFTER the end of the program. Haha.
16:07:49 <asiekierka> You can end it with a... incinerator.
16:07:50 <asiekierka> Yes.
16:07:53 <asiekierka> That fire pit
16:07:54 <asiekierka> thing
16:08:01 <Slereah_> Incinerator is to destroy boxes
16:08:10 <Slereah_> Boxes that contains data.
16:08:16 <Slereah_> Like in Rube, that is
16:08:22 <Slereah_> Except they're not boxes.
16:09:00 <asiekierka> They're the Aperture Science Weighted Storage Cubes
16:09:00 <asiekierka> right
16:09:09 <Slereah_> They're Aperture Science Weighted Storage Cubes
16:09:17 <Slereah_> Yes.
16:09:17 <asiekierka> Where are the Companion Cubes?
16:09:38 <Slereah_> So far, I have no idea how to include it
16:09:57 <asiekierka> What about them storing strings?
16:10:04 <LinuS> uuh!
16:10:06 <Slereah_> What?
16:10:06 <LinuS> i had it know
16:10:13 <asiekierka> or can the storage cubes do this too
16:10:17 <LinuS> as esolang that has the game level file
16:10:22 <LinuS> as instructions
16:10:24 <LinuS> :P
16:10:26 <LinuS> an*
16:10:37 <Slereah_> Well, it's rube based
16:10:47 <Slereah_> So the boxes contain hex values.
16:11:03 <Slereah_> And you can output them as char and such
16:12:39 <asiekierka> Where are the actual portals
16:12:59 <Slereah_> Well, they're pre-existing.
16:13:10 <asiekierka> ooh
16:13:15 <Slereah_> My first idea was to do just Befunge, but with portals
16:13:19 <asiekierka> so there's no (standalone) portal gun?
16:13:23 <asiekierka> Also
16:13:30 <Slereah_> So that the pointer could enter a portal and such
16:13:31 <asiekierka> you could realize befungeportals as two text files
16:13:53 <asiekierka> Then the pointer will start at the same Y position, but at the X where it finds a blue portal
16:13:55 <asiekierka> as in
16:13:57 <asiekierka> the other portal
16:14:29 <Slereah_> My idea was just to place a whole bunch of portals and then to include a bit of text that explained how they were connected
16:16:08 <Slereah_> But odds are, I'll never make an interpreter
16:16:12 <asiekierka> :(
16:16:17 <Slereah_> I have already 3 interpreter-less languages
16:16:25 <Slereah_> And they have actual specs
16:16:33 <asiekierka> I have one interpreter-less language
16:16:34 <asiekierka> IRCot
16:16:37 <asiekierka> for making an ircbot in
16:16:38 <Slereah_> Well, except Arithmetica. It's sort of fuzzy.
16:16:40 <asiekierka> Really bad
16:23:18 <Sgeo> asiekierka, are you planning on being involved in rootnomic/normish?
16:23:28 <asiekierka> What do you mean by "involved"
16:23:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you about?
16:23:41 <Sgeo> Voting, and stuff
16:23:46 <asiekierka> Sometimes.
16:23:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes partly
16:24:06 <Sgeo> The thing is, each player raises quorum..
16:24:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: which ones were BAD for you in Mycology's concurrency test; the "a  b" one, any others?
16:26:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the k one too, again I checked that the actual tick count for k was correct
16:26:37 <AnMaster> so I guess the error happen somewhere in between them
16:26:43 <AnMaster> or just before I mean
16:27:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: great, because I realized a silly error in CCBI that might cause that and I was right and now CCBI has the same errors :-)
16:27:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so you can chill, Mycology is bugged
16:27:20 <AnMaster> aha
16:27:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what was the issue?
16:27:38 <Deewiant> if you have two IPs, A and B
16:27:45 <Deewiant> where A is executed first
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16:27:57 <AnMaster> yes?
16:28:42 <Deewiant> then if A does 'p' to place a space/semicolon where B would next execute, the B would execute that in one tick instead of zero
16:28:50 <Deewiant> assuming this happens in one tick
16:29:03 <Deewiant> i.e. if B did the same to A it wouldn't happen
16:29:03 <AnMaster> huh, that sound extremely odd
16:29:21 <Deewiant> yes, it was a very stupid thing I did in version 1.0.3 or so
16:29:46 <AnMaster> and I don't see how it could happen, are you pre-fetching the next instruction or something?
16:29:48 <Deewiant> the issue was concurrent tracing, where I wanted all IPs to show the next instruction they would execute instead of space/semicolon
16:29:57 <AnMaster> ooh I see
16:30:02 <Deewiant> so what I did was ip.gotoNextInstruction before the execution loop, for all IPs
16:30:09 <Deewiant> but this isn't yet stupid
16:30:32 <AnMaster> oh?
16:30:39 <Deewiant> I then noticed that an IP was occasionally reflecting because it was trying to execute space/semicolon
16:31:00 <Deewiant> so I did the stupid fix: add the instructions back that were there before, for space and semicolon
16:31:11 <AnMaster> err, it shouldn't reflect on those, ever.
16:31:13 <Deewiant> which, with the new gotoNextInstruction scheme, would take one tick
16:31:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: they were removed from the main execute() thing because they should never have come there
16:31:36 <AnMaster> ah...
16:31:37 <Deewiant> because they should be bypassed in gotoNextInstruction
16:31:42 <Deewiant> but then I added them back
16:31:44 <Deewiant> which was stupid
16:31:52 <Deewiant> because then they are of course like any other instruction
16:31:54 <Deewiant> and take one tick
16:32:15 <Deewiant> earlier I had some kind of "bool executeAgain;" which took care of them as a special case
16:32:29 <Deewiant> (I think, anyway)
16:32:32 <Deewiant> but yeah, stupid bug
16:32:41 <Deewiant> just realized a few days ago that that might cause it
16:32:46 <Deewiant> and seems I was right
16:34:50 <AnMaster> well this means rc/funge will fail again iirc
16:35:00 <AnMaster> because it passed while mycology had that bug
16:35:44 <Deewiant> yes, probably
16:36:15 <AnMaster> so for a while cfunge was more conforming than CCBI hehe
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17:10:10 <AnMaster> what did I miss?
17:10:18 <AnMaster> my computer crashed
17:10:46 <AnMaster> not even kernel panic, just rebooted and refused to start until I unplugged it and replugged it
17:10:51 <Slereah_> Naked women.
17:11:09 <tusho> 5,000,000 of them.
17:11:29 <AnMaster> refused to start as in: locked up before bios started
17:11:40 <Slereah_> We're now so bored with them that we turned gay
17:11:50 <Deewiant> speak for yourself
17:12:08 <Deewiant> I'm still excited about them
17:13:11 <tusho> Deewiant: still? now it's 10,000,000
17:13:20 <tusho> yawn. naked women are so 5 minutes ago
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17:18:08 <tusho> http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=die_you_gravy_sucking_pig_dog
17:21:33 <Slereah_> Heh.
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18:30:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: new Mycology (and CCBI)
18:33:23 <AnMaster> k
18:33:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, forgot the url
18:34:55 <Deewiant> iki.fi/deewiant
18:35:18 <Deewiant> sheesh, you just need to remember "iki" and then whois me for the rest ;-)
18:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | having an extra digit does increase the risk that some more easily useful combination may arise..
18:42:43 <AnMaster> * [Deewiant] (n=mniemenm@peridootti.hut.fi): Matti Niemenmaa <-- eh?
18:42:55 <AnMaster> btw what does iki mean?
18:42:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so you get .fi as well as deewiant
18:43:12 <Deewiant> alternatively, iki.fi/matti.niemenmaa
18:43:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/iki
18:44:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it works except...
18:44:24 <AnMaster> Testing fingerprint SUBR... loaded.
18:44:28 <AnMaster> <infinite loop>
18:44:33 <AnMaster> as in it locks up there
18:44:35 <AnMaster> very odd
18:44:41 <AnMaster> it didn't lock up there on the old one
18:44:42 <Deewiant> see the readme.txt
18:44:51 <Deewiant> it's probably to do with the fact that { is now used in many places
18:45:07 <Deewiant> which means, storage offsets better work
18:45:35 <AnMaster> well they do as far as I know
18:45:36 <Deewiant> s/the readme.txt/the changelog in the readme.txt/
18:45:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, do you apply them when popping vectors in SUBR?
18:46:03 <AnMaster> hm
18:46:14 <AnMaster> the specs doesn't say so do they?
18:47:03 <Deewiant> applying the offset is the default
18:47:11 <AnMaster> http://www.elf-emulation.com/funge/rcfunge_manual.html#SUBR
18:47:17 <Deewiant> it's only if it explicitly says that it shouldn't be applied that you shouldn't apply them
18:47:27 <Deewiant> Mike agrees FWIW
18:47:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I say it is undefined
18:47:47 <AnMaster> as the specs currently read anyway
18:47:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: then complain to Mike if you see him
18:48:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://www.elf-emulation.com/funge/rcfunge_manual.html#SUBR
18:48:22 <AnMaster> there is nothing about storage offset there
18:48:29 <AnMaster> so how the heck could I know when to pop it
18:48:30 <Deewiant> It says "Va"
18:48:32 <AnMaster> or what value to use
18:48:34 <Deewiant> i.e. Vector a
18:48:37 <Deewiant> i.e. apply storage offset
18:48:40 <Deewiant> because it's a vector
18:48:55 <AnMaster> Vector a is where the code jumps in C?
18:48:57 <fizzie> Wiktionary does not really explain the meaning of "iki" in the iki.fi case; there it's an acronym for "Internet-käyttäjät ikuisesti", name of the organization providing those email addresses; "Internet Users Forever", in English.
18:49:06 <AnMaster> same for J
18:49:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no?
18:49:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: probably yes
18:49:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it doesn't say that should be the storage offset as well *anywhere*
18:49:32 <Deewiant> fizzie: and yeah, but it's obviously a pun on the real meaning as well
18:49:35 <AnMaster> tell me where it says so, and I will change it
18:49:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it is a vector, so why not apply it, it would be stupid not to
18:50:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well i takes a vector too, why not make it the storage offset while you are at it?
18:50:09 <fizzie> Well, sure. And there's an english summary on www.iki.fi, so it's not like AnMaster has an excuse for not knowing it.
18:50:17 <AnMaster> you are making no sense Deewiant!
18:50:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: er, i /should/ use the storage offset as well
18:50:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: just like p and g
18:50:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh you mean jump relative storage offset, it doesn't say that either
18:50:56 <AnMaster> I thought you meant set storage offset
18:51:03 <Deewiant> no, of course not :-)
18:51:08 <Deewiant> but my point is
18:51:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway tell me where it says you should use the vector relative the offset
18:51:19 <Deewiant> it shouldn't need to be explicitly said
18:51:27 <Deewiant> because otherwise { rapidly becomes useless
18:51:47 <Deewiant> it is a vector which points to funge-space, hence apply storage offset to it unless explicitly said that you shouldn't, period.
18:51:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why then does the standard say explicitly that g and p are relative that offset
18:52:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: because the standard is written better than the RC/Funge-98 fingerprint specs ;-)
18:52:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and yes storage sure, but not IP jump offset
18:52:22 <tusho> fizzie: Well sure he has an excuse (it's work) but it's not a very good one.
18:52:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, storage offset is fine, jump offset is something else really
18:53:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so mail Chris and ask him to change the spec to say "storage/SUBR jump/TRDS jump/... offset"
18:53:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no, those fingerprints should say explicitly that the jump should be relative the offset
18:53:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the whole point of the storage offset is that you can specify vectors relative to the { point and thus you get code which is position-invariant (add a line before it and it still works, for instance)
18:54:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I agree that it would be better if they did say that, but I think it's stupid to not apply it even if it's not documented
18:54:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as the specs read now, I can only consider this a UNDEF
18:54:33 <fizzie> The standard also bothers to explicitly state that the i/o instruction origin vectors are relative to storage offset, so I guess one could make a case that it doesn't sound very "default"-y.
18:54:44 <AnMaster> also the changelog you mentioned doesn't mention anything like that
18:55:02 <fizzie> Every time you talk about all that Befunge stuff, I get the feeling I should be improving fungot.
18:55:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hmm, crap, I thought it did
18:55:33 <Deewiant> I guess I forgot to write about that :-/
18:56:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway 1) you can't change published fingerprints really 2) the published fingerprint doesn't say anything about storage offset.
18:56:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but anyway, Mike told me in an e-mail that it's a bug if any of those are not relative to the offset (REFC and one other weren't supposed to be, forget which)
18:56:27 <AnMaster> That means it should be an UNDEF
18:56:33 <Deewiant> 1) is bullshit IMO
18:56:40 <Deewiant> and 2) is Mike's crap writing
18:56:50 <Deewiant> the guy can't document to save his life :-P
18:57:03 <AnMaster> well maybe, but it is still a UNDEF as the documentation currently reads
18:57:16 <AnMaster> so mail him and tell him to fix it
18:57:42 <Deewiant> I often tell him to fix stuff but he only updates the docs 2+ releases after he makes the change in his interpreter ;-P
18:58:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so should return be absolute or?
18:59:03 <AnMaster> also about documenting, wtf is my SUBR call doing, I need to add more comments
18:59:11 <Deewiant> :-D
18:59:45 <AnMaster> why on earth am I creating a temporary stack
18:59:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: absolute in CCBI are: deltas, REFC, ORTH.
19:00:02 <Deewiant> nothing else.
19:00:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so if you use refc to store a reference to a cell then change storage offset and then dereferences the cell, it will be fixed so it works for g and p with current offset?
19:00:57 <AnMaster> or what?
19:01:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, either mail Mike about this or make it a UNDEF.
19:01:25 <AnMaster> I mean it
19:01:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: nah, it's just both pushed and popped without the storage offset.
19:01:39 <AnMaster> because considering that well defined is insane
19:01:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I'll tell him if I see him here, I expect you to do likewise
19:01:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so REFC is basically useless with offsets then?
19:02:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no as I consider absolute for jump better
19:02:13 <AnMaster> so I won't mention it
19:02:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why would it be better
19:02:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway for now I shall have to note that mycology is buggy and can't handle this UNDEF then?
19:03:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why don't you say it's buggy because it doesn't handle k as UNDEF
19:04:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well now it is well defined with the catseye diagnosis tools
19:04:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, 2k ;;;5 for instance is still UNDEF according to the letter of the spec
19:04:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also you have messed with STRN it seems?
19:04:58 <AnMaster> BAD: G reflects
19:05:02 <AnMaster> without any reason
19:05:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't know what I have messed with, in order to add new fingerprints many old ones now use {
19:05:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: at least there you can't argue that it's not a "storage" offset :-P
19:05:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I will consider all that doesn't explicitly say that they are relative the storage offset as absolute
19:05:56 <AnMaster> and SUBR is more useful when absolute
19:06:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so what about k
19:06:24 <AnMaster> means you can call utility functions at absolute offset even when you are in a {
19:06:31 <AnMaster> with relative it would be painful to do that
19:07:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that way if you define functions within the { and then move the code in the file, you're screwed.
19:07:20 <Deewiant> the relative way is more general
19:07:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm?
19:07:26 <AnMaster> how do you mean
19:07:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, with absolute, if you add a line earlier, you have to change all your code because the y-coordinate is different.
19:07:44 <AnMaster> you would have to recalculate where the functions are every time you change a {
19:07:51 <AnMaster> which seems worse
19:07:58 <AnMaster> you are screwed if you move the { block basically
19:08:00 <Deewiant> with relative, you don't have to recalculate anything.
19:08:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, with absolute. not with relative.
19:08:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no, say you want to call a utility function at (4,5) from inside a {-block at 47,23
19:08:59 <AnMaster> now if you move that { block to 48,29... you are screwed with relative addressing
19:09:06 <AnMaster> with absolute it would work just fine
19:09:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: make a utility function within the { which subtracts the storage offset (using u) and calls the outer utility function
19:09:30 <Deewiant> relative can handle all cases with more maintainability than absolute
19:09:33 <AnMaster> u? isn't that some Trefunge function?
19:09:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, it's "stack under stack"
19:09:51 <AnMaster> ah right
19:09:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: m and l are Trefunge
19:09:59 <AnMaster> and h
19:10:01 <AnMaster> iirc
19:10:14 <Deewiant> yes
19:10:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway utility function, you just love making the code more complex
19:10:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I love making code maintainable
19:10:59 <Deewiant> writing Mycology taught me that
19:11:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well the specs doesn't say anything about it, so make it an UNDEF until they do
19:11:51 <dogface_> In SKI calculus, can you prove that `sk is equivalent to `ki without using the axiom (for all x, `ax = `bx) => a = b?
19:12:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I can't possibly make it an undef without fucking up mycology and having to duplicate fingerprints for the absolute/relative cases, plus losing maintainability again because of the absolute stuff
19:12:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what's wrong with you just fixing cfunge before the new spec is published??
19:12:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: not like anybody's using those fingerprints who would care :-P
19:13:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because I follow published standards
19:13:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I see, so how does your t instruction work
19:13:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so should the return address pushed by C be relative offset? or absolute with offset added?
19:14:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you mean about t?
19:14:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what's the difference?
19:14:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, t as specified in the spec is an infinite loop + forkbomb
19:14:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well either it pushes the vector + offset, or it pushes the vector without the offset
19:14:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: because it doesn't say the child IP should move after being forked
19:14:41 <AnMaster> actually
19:14:54 <AnMaster> position - offset
19:14:55 <AnMaster> or
19:14:57 <AnMaster> position
19:14:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: with offset of course so that it all works within {
19:15:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so if you leave { then it returns to wrong place?
19:15:11 <AnMaster> nice
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19:15:26 <AnMaster> StackPushVector(ip->stack, &VectorCreateRef(ip->position.x - ip->storageOffset.x, ip->position.y - ip->storageOffset.y));
19:15:29 <AnMaster> so something like that?
19:16:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: erm, that's like saying that if you change EIP within a function "ret" won't work properly
19:16:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: something like that yes
19:16:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it would be a lot easier if the docs said this
19:16:38 <AnMaster> agree?
19:16:48 <AnMaster> so get Mike to update the docs
19:17:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, and yes
19:17:05 <AnMaster> oh and get the JSTR author to update too
19:17:12 <AnMaster> because that doesn't say anything about relative either
19:17:28 <Deewiant> good luck with that, his befunge page was down last I checked
19:17:37 <AnMaster> <fizzie> The standard also bothers to explicitly state that the i/o instruction origin vectors are relative to storage offset, so I guess one could make a case that it doesn't sound very "default"-y.
19:17:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so I agree with fizzie there
19:17:50 <Deewiant> like said, the standard is well written, unlike mike's docs
19:17:53 <fizzie> I'm not sure I agree with fizzie here.
19:18:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, shut up :P
19:18:20 <AnMaster> ;P
19:18:24 <fizzie> I just pointed out that one could make the case it's not very defaulty. My personal intuitive feeling is that all funge-space access should happen "as if" it was done with g/p, unless otherwise specified.
19:19:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what in the REFC, and ORTH specs says it is *not* relative the offset then
19:19:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: doing REFC your way might make more sense (i.e. make it work regardless of in or outside {)
19:20:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but the basic point there is that the REFC list is global
19:20:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no I won't do it that way, as the specs doesn't say so
19:20:19 <AnMaster> I just noted you were illogical
19:20:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so how about your t
19:20:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: cfunge is incompliant
19:20:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed it does move but that is because it wouldn't work at all otherwise
19:21:02 <Deewiant> EXACTLY.
19:21:05 <AnMaster> but
19:21:12 <AnMaster> all these other ones work either way
19:21:18 <AnMaster> thus I prefer to follow the standard
19:21:22 <Deewiant> yes, one way being drastically more useless than the other
19:21:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or you could consider the t move UNDEF
19:21:29 <Deewiant> and the standard not being explicit about it
19:21:34 <AnMaster> nowhere does it say it shouldn't move either
19:21:41 <AnMaster> so you are free to do whichever you want
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19:21:59 <AnMaster> same for these with storage offset
19:22:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where does it say ORTH is absolute?
19:22:39 <AnMaster> I checked http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/ORTH.html
19:22:44 <AnMaster> it doesn't mention "offset" anywhere
19:22:51 <AnMaster> so why isn't your relative then?
19:22:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the Orthogonal language doesn't have offset
19:23:15 <Deewiant> since those are meant to duplicate them directly, I think that makes sense
19:23:19 <Deewiant> although this is arguable
19:24:17 <Deewiant> another point is simply usefulness: if they're to use the offset then they're just \g and \p
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19:24:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, certainly it is, it means just adding a "HTRO"4(....{ won't work as prefix to make it run under befunge (plus of course change the instructions to those in fingerprints)
19:24:28 <Deewiant> if they don't, they're actually worth something
19:24:29 <asiekierka> Hello
19:24:44 <asiekierka> fizzie: Are any new fungot langs there?
19:25:06 <fizzie> Nope; been busy.
19:25:45 <fizzie> I'll probably add back some sort of method to give it longer-than-500-characters programs before starting to work on any new interpreters.
19:25:46 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho|away.
19:27:12 <fizzie> I think there are some ugly brainfuck dependencies in the code, too. Hopefully not too many.
19:29:23 <fizzie> Incidentally, I don't use { or SUBR at all; I call my two "functions" (prepare program, execute program) by sending the IP down on column 5 or column 6 with the language ID (and a where-to-return value under it) on the stack; there are :1-#v_ -style sequences to pick the interpreter, and those return in columns 79/80 with that where-to-return code on top of stack.
19:29:28 <fizzie> Very ugly.
19:29:44 <Deewiant> sounds similar to what I do in Mycology to load fingerprints
19:29:45 <fizzie> "Maintainable Befunge" just feels a bit weird.
19:29:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you use FING or FNGR?
19:29:53 <Deewiant> FNGR IIRC
19:30:05 <AnMaster> consider changing to FING if you use FNGR
19:30:08 <fizzie> It's still FNGR, but I can switch to FING easily. Meant to do that, but haven't yet.
19:30:16 <AnMaster> good
19:30:43 <fizzie> FNGR is used on the first 3 lines only and )d afterwards; not much to change.
19:30:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I committed changes to make mycology happy, with a note that this is really an UNDEF but mycology treats it as well defined when it isn't
19:31:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: which ones did you have to change
19:31:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, JSTR, STRN and SUBR are affected
19:31:04 <Deewiant> alright
19:31:10 <AnMaster> please contact the authors to make them update the docs
19:31:15 <AnMaster> if you wish to keep it this way
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19:32:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and if you want me to change REFC to the way I suggested above: forget it
19:32:28 <AnMaster> it was just pointing out how illogical you were being
19:32:51 <AnMaster> I won't change REFC unless it's specs are updated
19:33:28 <Deewiant> I don't see lack of logic anywhere, just caring about usefulness and intention more than about precisely what is written
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19:37:09 <tusho> exactly
19:37:11 <tusho> Deewiant is right
19:37:13 <tusho> who wrote REFC?
19:37:20 <tusho> If it was MikeRiley, well, you know what he's always like
19:37:26 <tusho> "yeah,,,you're right...i'll change it"
19:37:49 <tusho> Best to just cut to the chase, and avoid bureauacracy
19:37:59 <Deewiant> tusho: it's an old cat's-eye fingerprint, so probably chris pressey
19:38:09 <tusho> Deewiant: Then it'll never be updated.
19:38:11 <tusho> :)
19:38:13 <Deewiant> exactly
19:38:20 <Deewiant> so is defining it to be useful so wrong?
19:38:40 <tusho> Deewiant: To satisfy AnMaster, maybe call it RFCT
19:38:41 <tusho> or something
19:38:56 <Deewiant> meh, it's not worth it
19:39:00 <Deewiant> REFC is fairly useless anyway
19:39:20 <tusho> Deewiant: perhaps you should have a mycology_opinionated.b98
19:39:25 <Deewiant> :-D
19:39:26 <tusho> that tests UNDEF things
19:39:29 <tusho> etc
19:39:42 <tusho> (for Reasonable Behaviour(TM))
19:39:51 <fizzie> mycology_for_people_with_common_sense.b98
19:40:03 <fizzie> If you want to be snide about it.
19:40:23 <tusho> mycology_anmaster_keep_out.b98
19:41:34 <asiekierka> mycology_for_ircbots.b98
19:42:05 <fizzie> optbot; What do you think about the Great Relative/Absolute Funge-Space Addressing Controversy of 2008?
19:42:05 <optbot> fizzie: It would be marginaly less irritating without furries.
19:42:07 <tusho> asiekierka: no.
19:42:13 <tusho> LMAO@optbot
19:42:13 <optbot> tusho: when writing C++ I have this strangest urge to write well-structured, oo-like code.
19:42:13 <asiekierka> mycology_for_mycology.b98
19:42:19 <fizzie> optbot; Well, that much is undoubtedly true.
19:42:19 <optbot> fizzie: am I markov "Internetty" chain bots?
19:42:27 <asiekierka> mycology_for_quines.b98
19:42:28 <fizzie> optbot; I don't know, are you?
19:42:29 <Deewiant> if I can get Jesse van Herk to update JSTR's spec, I don't have to do anything
19:42:29 <optbot> fizzie: 4
19:42:50 <asiekierka> mycology_optbot.b98
19:42:50 <optbot> asiekierka: with your powers combined, i am captain ge...ahem
19:42:59 <asiekierka> xD
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19:44:15 <AnMaster> "captain ge"?
19:44:31 <asiekierka> captain ge...ahem
19:44:35 <asiekierka> captain geahem!
19:44:43 <AnMaster> um
19:44:53 <asiekierka> GEAHM, GEARM, GEARMD, GARMED, ARMED
19:44:56 <AnMaster> what should FING do on empty opcode stack?
19:45:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
19:45:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the spec doesn't say so I guess you can do whatever you want!!!
19:45:34 <tusho> Deewiant: Looks like he needs mycology_opinionated.b98!
19:45:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm probably reflect for now, will ask Mike to clarify specs
19:45:54 <fizzie> From the contet, I think it might've been captain geek. The conversation immediately before is about geeks.
19:46:02 <fizzie> s/tet/text/
19:46:22 <tusho> Contet
19:46:23 <tusho> :D
19:46:43 <AnMaster> return stack->entries[--(stack->top)];
19:46:46 <AnMaster> is that well defined in C
19:46:48 <AnMaster> or not
19:46:55 <Deewiant> why not
19:47:04 <tusho> no, magical pixies make it not work
19:47:05 <AnMaster> well sometimes those things aren't
19:47:05 <Deewiant> with extra brackets to boot
19:47:09 <fizzie> stack->entries and stack->top are very different objects, I don't see why it wouldn't be.
19:47:11 <tusho> 'those things'?
19:47:11 <Deewiant> "those things"?
19:47:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm ok
19:47:20 <tusho> god sometimes I wish AnMaster actually knew how these things worked
19:47:21 <tusho> :D
19:47:47 <AnMaster> tusho, as in evaluation order
19:48:00 <tusho> AnMaster: Where is the ambiguity?
19:48:02 <tusho> There is none.
19:48:05 <AnMaster> I don't remember the details for what is undefined from the top of my head
19:48:11 <tusho> How on earth could it be?
19:48:15 <AnMaster> p[p++];
19:48:16 <tusho> --x returns x, then decrements it.
19:48:17 <AnMaster> for example
19:48:22 <tusho> AnMaster: It's a structure.
19:48:22 <AnMaster> tusho,
19:48:23 <Deewiant> x[y++]
19:48:25 <tusho> x->y and x->z aren't the same thing.
19:48:28 <tusho> It's just x[y++].
19:48:33 <tusho> Yes, what Deewiant said
19:48:34 <AnMaster> <tusho> --x returns x, then decrements it.
19:48:37 <AnMaster> other way around
19:48:48 <tusho> AnMaster: Yes, yes, this mixing of prefix and postfix operators is confusing.
19:48:50 <tusho> My point still stands.
19:48:54 <AnMaster> god sometimes I wish tusho actually knew what he talked about
19:48:58 <tusho> You're not using something and modifying it in the same expression.
19:49:05 <tusho> And unlike yours, mine was just a thinko.
19:49:11 <Deewiant> god sometimes I wish AnMaster would concentrate on the whole and not the irrelevant details
19:49:51 <tusho> Deewiant++
19:50:12 <fizzie> The bickering! It's almost too much to bear!
19:50:24 <Deewiant> optbot: Help!
19:50:24 <optbot> Deewiant: I am YOUR MOM
19:50:27 <Deewiant> !!
19:50:34 <Deewiant> optbot: I never suspected!!
19:50:34 <optbot> Deewiant: ...yes
19:50:58 <tusho> "Luke...I am...YOUR MOM"
19:51:03 <Deewiant> :-D
19:51:08 <tusho> "Hahahaha oh good one Vader you got me there!"
19:51:15 <asiekierka> Let's go to the castle of YOUR FACE
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20:06:19 <AnMaster> "BAD: Z did not push a reflect from empty source semantic stack" interesting
20:06:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Mike wrote some quite good test suites
20:06:45 <AnMaster> still he should mention it in the specs
20:08:12 -!- olsner has joined.
20:08:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: good and good
20:08:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm?
20:08:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: they don't test edge cases, normal functionality is okay though
20:08:35 <Deewiant> i.e. stuff that should reverse, etc.
20:08:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well the FING one tests edge cases at least
20:08:51 <Deewiant> okay, good
20:08:54 <Deewiant> a couple I've tried didn't
20:09:03 <AnMaster> "GOOD: X with an empty semantic stack reflected"
20:09:05 <AnMaster> for example
20:09:17 <Deewiant> yeah, he's ripping off mycology ;-)
20:09:18 <AnMaster> now that is interesting, it locked up
20:09:33 <Deewiant> I will probably incorporate many of those in mycology
20:10:06 -!- Hiato has joined.
20:10:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you can't, they are way too sparse
20:10:41 <Deewiant> sparse?
20:10:47 <AnMaster> the coding style!
20:10:51 <AnMaster> it is actually readable
20:10:55 <AnMaster> you can't use THAT
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20:11:09 <Deewiant> optbot: I refuse to respond, say something smart
20:11:10 <optbot> Deewiant: ok
20:11:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about edge cases... it does not handle well when it reflects but it didn't expect it too it seems
20:11:13 <Deewiant> >_<
20:11:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, :D
20:11:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: DATE for instance wasn't tested very well IMO
20:11:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I haven't checked that one yet
20:11:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and yeah, it doesn't handle that
20:11:42 <Deewiant> it expects everything to succeed
20:11:49 <Deewiant> and usually hits an @ immediately if something doesn't
20:12:00 <Deewiant> which is of course not doable in mycology
20:12:36 <AnMaster> actually hrrm
20:12:37 <AnMaster> wtf
20:13:18 <AnMaster> >I1-#v_0"1 sehsup niaga I :DOOG">:#,_$a,v
20:13:18 <AnMaster>      >0"1 hsup ton seod I :DAB">:#,_$a,@
20:13:19 <AnMaster> well
20:13:29 <AnMaster> that reflects between > and the first I for some reason
20:14:14 <AnMaster> can't figure out why
20:14:17 <Deewiant> between?
20:14:27 <AnMaster> yes
20:14:35 <AnMaster> tix=0 tid=0 x=0 y=61: > (62)
20:14:36 <AnMaster> tix=0 tid=0 x=1 y=61: I (73)
20:14:36 <AnMaster> tix=0 tid=0 x=0 y=61: > (62)
20:14:36 <AnMaster> tix=0 tid=0 x=1 y=61: I (73)
20:14:37 <AnMaster> like that
20:14:52 <Deewiant> is that different from reflecting at the I?
20:15:00 <AnMaster> huh?
20:15:13 <AnMaster> it is bouncing between them
20:15:13 <Deewiant> well what do you mean it reflects in between
20:15:22 <Deewiant> ah, that
20:15:33 <Deewiant> just say it reflects at the I, much clearer :-P
20:15:38 <tusho> http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT6917941 what a ridiculous patent...
20:15:43 <AnMaster> take two mirrors, place them facing each other
20:15:55 <AnMaster> shine some light, the light will reflect between them
20:16:01 <asiekierka> You know...
20:16:02 <asiekierka> I'd like to patent patents.
20:16:05 <Sgeo> Hey asiekierka, there's a proposal that seems to be about you in normish, I think you should at least vote one way or another on that
20:16:15 <asiekierka> So they must pay me to patent their patents
20:16:16 <asiekierka> xD
20:16:18 <asiekierka> Also
20:16:23 <asiekierka> lemme check
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20:17:02 <asiekierka> cull?
20:17:05 <AnMaster> <tusho> http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT6917941 what a ridiculous patent... <-- I don't understand what it is saying even
20:18:09 <Sgeo> Seems to move your home directory so you don't affect quorum, I think
20:18:17 <tusho> AnMaster: duh, patents are written in dense legalese
20:18:22 <asiekierka> quorum?
20:18:28 <tusho> but it essentially seems to be regarding making lists. In databases.
20:19:36 <Sgeo> be back laterish
20:19:39 <AnMaster> tusho, err wtf
20:19:49 <tusho> lol@patents :D
20:19:56 <tusho> Can we abolish patents yet?
20:20:46 <asiekierka> You know
20:21:08 <asiekierka> if i had a patent goldfish, allowing me to accomplish one patent and get it accepted, no matter what it is or what it changes
20:21:12 <asiekierka> I'd patent patents
20:21:39 <tusho> yes, ha ha you are the first person to think of that
20:21:41 <tusho> golly gee such humour
20:21:48 <tusho> Besides, nothing would happen
20:21:51 <tusho> unless you sued people
20:21:52 <tusho> and if you did
20:21:52 <Deewiant> optbot: golly gee
20:21:53 <optbot> Deewiant: trick it out of the house?
20:21:54 <tusho> the courts would dismiss it
20:22:00 <asiekierka> "_
20:22:01 <tusho> due to, uh, fairly obvious prior use
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20:29:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah I found it
20:30:01 <AnMaster> it didn't check that X added the semantics back if it failed
20:30:11 <AnMaster> I didn't know I should so I didn't do that
20:30:24 <Deewiant> seems pretty obvious to me
20:30:28 <Deewiant> if you fail, fail atomically
20:30:29 <AnMaster> now to mail him about it
20:30:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you check if either semantic is NULL, now then if the other isn't NULL you need to push it back, the test should check that
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20:31:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it is very obvious that if an operation fails, you don't lose user data
20:31:47 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, hi, your FING test doesn't check that X actually add back the other semantic if one of them are NULL
20:31:56 <AnMaster> GOOD: X with an empty semantic stack reflected
20:32:08 <AnMaster> it should also check that the other semantic was pushed back after
20:32:16 <MikeRiley> hmmmmmm need to check on that....i thought it did...
20:32:17 <Slereah_> AROUND STACKS
20:32:20 <Slereah_> NEVER RELAX
20:32:31 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, now I just need to figure out why it says: BAD: M does not have M semantics from MODU
20:32:47 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: got my e-mail?
20:32:53 <MikeRiley> hold on....let me get the test in front of me,,,then can explain it....
20:32:59 <MikeRiley> yes,,,,was answering it....
20:33:14 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, unlike mycology your test is rather readable
20:33:15 <AnMaster> hehe
20:33:19 <Deewiant> you can just answer here as well
20:33:31 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,let me get anmaster's answer first....
20:34:33 <MikeRiley> anmaster: GOOD: 'C'MZ did not reflect
20:34:33 <MikeRiley> GOOD: M has C semantics from ROMA
20:34:52 <MikeRiley> these lines,,,,create a C semantic from ROMA on top of the M semantic stack...
20:34:52 <AnMaster> well yes I figure that much
20:34:57 <AnMaster> now why does it not have it
20:35:18 <AnMaster> >53M2- <-- huh
20:35:23 <MikeRiley> unloading MODU, will unload the ROMA/C semantic from M,,,,leaving the M that was already there...
20:36:13 <MikeRiley> so the correct response should be: GOOD: M has M semantics from MODU
20:36:33 <MikeRiley> deewiant: it is in the documentation that I have,,,,just not been posted yet!!!
20:36:43 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: as I thought, so post it!!
20:37:00 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, also newline is missing after "BAD: X did not push a...."
20:37:01 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: because AnMaster reads the posted stuff like the bible
20:37:02 <AnMaster> err
20:37:03 <MikeRiley> sometimes i make lots of changes in my local copies and do not get around to posting them...
20:37:04 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, also newline is missing after "BAD: Z did not push a...."
20:37:06 <AnMaster> is what I meant
20:37:24 <MikeRiley> where is newline missing????
20:37:34 <AnMaster>     >0"kcats citnames ecruos ytpme morf tcelfer a hsup ton did Z :DAB">:#,_@
20:37:46 <MikeRiley> oh...ok,,,that was on a termination one....ok.....
20:38:36 <MikeRiley> added it
20:38:43 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well what could be wrong if I get "BAD: M does not have M semantics from MODU"
20:38:56 <AnMaster> hrrm
20:39:12 <MikeRiley> first,,,,does this work: GOOD: 'C'MZ did not reflect
20:39:25 <MikeRiley> this would have pushed the ROMA C semantic onto the M stack...
20:39:30 <AnMaster> GOOD: 'C'MZ did not reflect
20:39:33 <AnMaster> well it says GOOD
20:39:34 <MikeRiley> then when GOOD: Unloading MODU did not reflect
20:39:44 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, everything is GOOD up to that point
20:40:01 <MikeRiley> this happens....the M that gets popped off will be the C semantic from ROMA,,,leaving the original M from MODU that was underneath it...
20:40:03 <AnMaster> (and you seem to terminate after every BAD)
20:40:09 <AnMaster> ok
20:40:10 <MikeRiley> i do terminate after every bad...
20:40:35 <MikeRiley> some tests rely on previous tests...and if they resulted in bad, you could get all kinds of false bads later...
20:40:43 <MikeRiley> so i thought it was just better to terminate...
20:41:20 <MikeRiley> if deewiant wants to add the tests to mycology,,,then he can have them not terminate so that mycology could keep going....
20:41:34 <MikeRiley> but for single tests as i have them,,,just seemed useful to stop them on an bad....
20:42:50 <AnMaster> (gdb) print *ip->fingerOpcodes['M'-'A']->entries[0]
20:42:51 <AnMaster> $7 = {void (instructionPointer *)} 0x4168b6 <FingerROMApushM>
20:42:51 <AnMaster> err
20:42:53 <AnMaster> it does
20:43:42 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, it does execute M from ROMA
20:43:48 <MikeRiley> at what point???
20:43:56 <AnMaster> at "BAD: M does not have M semantics from MODU"
20:43:59 <MikeRiley> GOOD: A still has M semantics from MODU
20:44:08 <MikeRiley> it should not be executing ROMA at that point....
20:44:11 <AnMaster> there is no ROMA M on there
20:44:20 <MikeRiley> before GOOD: Unloading MODU did not reflect
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20:44:25 <MikeRiley> the semantic stack would look like:
20:44:27 <asiekierka> Hello
20:44:31 <AnMaster> there is ROMA C above the top of the stack
20:44:38 <MikeRiley> <ROMA:M><MODU:M><ROMA:C>
20:44:47 <AnMaster> <MikeRiley> GOOD: A still has M semantics from MODU <-- it seems like it does
20:44:56 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, this is on the M stack?
20:45:00 <AnMaster> or the A stack?
20:45:03 <MikeRiley> yes, MODU does not define A so it would not have been unloaded
20:45:24 <MikeRiley> A stack should have <MODU:M> on it....
20:45:43 <AnMaster> $12 = {void (instructionPointer *)} 0x415948 <FingerMODUsignedResult>
20:45:47 <AnMaster> that is all on the A stack
20:46:08 <MikeRiley> in the test script there is this line:
20:46:11 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, so clearly you missed to test something there which cfunge does the wrong way atm
20:46:30 <MikeRiley> which is????
20:46:35 <AnMaster> no idea
20:46:42 <AnMaster> but otherwise the stack wouldn't look like it does
20:46:48 <MikeRiley> <walking through the test>
20:47:13 * AnMaster is too
20:47:19 <MikeRiley> GOOD: A has M semantics from MODU
20:47:25 <MikeRiley> is the only place anything is done with A,,,,
20:47:26 <AnMaster> I get that yes
20:47:35 <MikeRiley> and that is after an instruction that pushes the MODU:M onto A....
20:47:55 <MikeRiley> after which ROMA:C is pushed on top of M....
20:48:05 <MikeRiley> A should still have MODU:M not ROMA:C....
20:48:14 <MikeRiley> that is what that test is about...
20:48:23 <AnMaster> let me check
20:48:26 <MikeRiley> then MODU is unloaded....so M would be popped...removing the ROMA:C
20:48:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://www.imaginaryrobots.net/projects/funge/myexts.txt !!!!!
20:48:33 <MikeRiley> leaving the MODU:M that is below it
20:49:08 <AnMaster> at "GOOD: A has M semantics from MODU" the stack is: FingerMODUsignedResult
20:49:11 <AnMaster> nothing else on the stack
20:49:17 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, is that correct?
20:49:25 <MikeRiley> A should only have MODU:M on it....and nothing else....
20:49:33 <AnMaster> ok so far, so good
20:49:37 <AnMaster> what's next?
20:50:04 <AnMaster> where should I set the next break point for checking
20:50:10 <MikeRiley> GOOD: 'C'MZ did not reflect
20:50:26 <MikeRiley> after this, M should be: <ROMA:M><MODU:M><ROMA:C>
20:51:21 <AnMaster> FingerROMApushM, FingerROMApushC is what the stacks look like after "GOOD: 'C'MZ did not reflect" has been printed
20:51:37 <MikeRiley> you are missing MODU:M
20:51:44 <AnMaster> yes I see
20:51:45 <AnMaster> hm
20:52:01 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, when was that MODU:M pushed?
20:52:10 <MikeRiley> when MODU is loaded
20:52:15 <AnMaster> also it is not the top item of the stack so it should have been pushed before?
20:52:19 <AnMaster> uhu
20:52:30 <MikeRiley> you have these lines before the test:
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20:52:36 <MikeRiley> GOOD: MODU loaded
20:52:37 <MikeRiley> GOOD: c0Z did not reflect
20:52:37 <MikeRiley> GOOD: A has M semantics from MODU
20:52:37 <MikeRiley> GOOD: 'C'MZ did not reflect
20:52:37 <MikeRiley> GOOD: M has C semantics from ROMA
20:52:44 <MikeRiley> when MODU is loaded you will get MODU:M
20:52:54 <MikeRiley> then the  GOOD: 'C'MZ did not reflect
20:52:59 <AnMaster> well I get those lines
20:53:03 <MikeRiley> will push the ROMA:C above the MODU:M
20:53:06 <AnMaster> but the MODU:M is missing
20:53:08 <MikeRiley> it does NOT replace it
20:53:30 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I know and since I use the same routine as when I normally pushes fingerprints I'm not sure what is wrong here
20:53:41 <AnMaster> push*
20:53:52 <MikeRiley> without knowing your code,,,,i do not know....i just know what the stack should look like....
20:53:58 <MikeRiley> at GOOD: MODU loaded
20:54:01 <AnMaster> yes...
20:54:03 <MikeRiley> what does your stack for M look like?
20:54:06 <AnMaster> a sec
20:54:35 <AnMaster> you mean at 0,72?
20:54:46 <MikeRiley> let me check where that is in the source
20:54:54 <AnMaster> line 73 in the source
20:55:02 <MikeRiley> yes 0,72
20:55:27 <AnMaster> FingerROMApushM, FingerMODUsignedResult
20:55:34 <MikeRiley> so far so good....
20:55:37 <MikeRiley> now after the next test???
20:56:04 <MikeRiley> which is: GOOD: c0Z did not reflect
20:56:06 <AnMaster> a sec
20:56:21 <MikeRiley> at this point, A should have <MODU:M>
20:56:30 <MikeRiley> and M should have <ROMA:M><MODU:M>
20:56:40 <AnMaster> FingerROMApushM only
20:56:43 <AnMaster> on M
20:56:51 <AnMaster> huh
20:56:51 <MikeRiley> than there is a problem in your Z code...
20:57:00 <MikeRiley> is your Z moving it????
20:57:08 <AnMaster> oh my it seems so yes
20:57:10 <MikeRiley> it should push a copy onto A...
20:57:18 <MikeRiley> and leave it on M as well...
20:57:25 <AnMaster> yeah
20:57:35 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, maybe add a test to see that it copies not move
20:57:53 <MikeRiley> i can do that,,,,but your BAD: line you are getting confirmst that.....
20:58:01 <MikeRiley> but can add a test immediately after the copy....
20:58:16 <MikeRiley> just so that it does not show up bad later where it is harder to figure out what is wrong...
20:58:29 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, yeah would make it easier to find the cause
20:58:37 <MikeRiley> will add the test.....
20:59:09 <AnMaster> ah no errors any longer
20:59:10 <AnMaster> :)
21:00:26 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, and add the stuff about X pushing reflect in the docs for FING btw
21:00:34 <AnMaster> err
21:00:35 <AnMaster> I mean
21:00:41 <AnMaster> Z pushing reflect
21:00:45 <MikeRiley> ????
21:01:34 <MikeRiley> refering to this test: GOOD: 18Z worked
21:01:39 <MikeRiley> GOOD: I now reflects
21:01:42 <MikeRiley> ?????
21:01:45 <AnMaster> yeah
21:01:48 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,
21:01:59 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, write better docs ;P
21:02:15 <MikeRiley> never claimed to be good at documenation!!!! ehehehehehehehe
21:02:44 <MikeRiley> need people like you to tell me what is missing or unclear!!! eheheheheeheh
21:03:51 <MikeRiley> ok,,,added the z pushing reflect....will find its way to my webpage eventually....
21:04:04 <MikeRiley> any other docs you want cleared up???
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21:07:30 <MikeRiley> new docs posted
21:08:40 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, oh and that X pushes back the other semantic if the first one is NULL
21:08:45 <AnMaster> fingerprintOpcode op1 = OpcodeStackPop(ip, first);
21:08:45 <AnMaster> fingerprintOpcode op2 = OpcodeStackPop(ip, second);
21:08:47 <AnMaster> if (!op1 || !op2) {
21:08:47 <AnMaster> // Add them back
21:08:47 <AnMaster> if (op1) OpcodeStackAdd(ip, first, op1);
21:08:47 <AnMaster> if (op2) OpcodeStackAdd(ip, second, op2);
21:08:47 <AnMaster> ipReverse(ip);
21:08:52 <AnMaster> ...
21:08:53 <AnMaster> like that
21:09:14 <AnMaster> I didn't push back to begin with
21:09:20 <MikeRiley> ok,,,
21:09:35 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, it cashed a lockup
21:09:52 <AnMaster> GOOD: 'IY did not reflect
21:09:55 <AnMaster> then lockup
21:09:58 <AnMaster> if you don't push back
21:10:07 <AnMaster> was confusing
21:10:33 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, what happened was that it bounced between >I in the beginning of the next test
21:12:03 <MikeRiley> ok,,,will try to remove the confusion
21:12:19 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, no one said writing tests in funge was easy ;P
21:12:25 <MikeRiley> nope...sure is not....
21:12:39 <AnMaster> I wrote tests myself that I couldn't understand why the failed for quite some time
21:12:49 <AnMaster> like my TURT test
21:13:15 <AnMaster> I could reason what should happen but had issues understanding why it didn't happen
21:13:21 <MikeRiley> hmmmmm have some questions for deewiant about his new mycology.....get some bad's that never had before,,,and should not have now....
21:13:37 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, oh I had that too, in SUBR, JSTR and STRN
21:13:39 <MikeRiley> yeah,,,,i had that happen to me on some of my test code...
21:13:50 <AnMaster> he wants stuff to be relative storage offsets
21:13:55 <MikeRiley> SUBR is broken now and ends up in an infinite loop...
21:14:00 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, same here
21:14:15 <AnMaster> before I made it relative storage offset
21:14:19 <MikeRiley> y as pick now shows bad,,,,when it did not before....
21:14:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hey the author didn't do it relative either, didn't you say he wanted that?!
21:14:36 <MikeRiley> most of my code is relative storage offsets as well...but maybe missed something...
21:15:01 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well Deewiant thinks the jump in SUBR should be relative
21:15:01 <MikeRiley> then there are these 2:
21:15:03 <MikeRiley> BAD: : on empty stack doesn't make stack size 2, says y
21:15:03 <MikeRiley> BAD: \ on empty stack doesn't make stack size 2, says y
21:15:07 <AnMaster> um
21:15:11 <MikeRiley> which do not make any sense why they would be bad...
21:15:12 <AnMaster> I don't get that
21:15:26 <MikeRiley> hmmmmi think the jump in SUBR should not be.....
21:15:42 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well \ pops a, then b, then pushes b then pushes a
21:15:50 <MikeRiley> i know....
21:15:58 <MikeRiley> so an empty stack will push back 2 zeros....
21:16:00 <MikeRiley> which mine does....
21:16:01 <AnMaster> : would pop a then push a twice
21:16:06 <MikeRiley> do not understand why the test now fails...
21:16:09 <AnMaster> I had issues with : months ago
21:16:13 <AnMaster> because I tried to be smart
21:16:17 <AnMaster> I did a peek and then a push
21:16:24 <AnMaster> instead of pop, push, push
21:16:26 <MikeRiley> that has always worked for me,,,,until this latest version of mycology...
21:16:45 <MikeRiley> mine did pop push push,,,,or pop pop push push....whatever was needed...
21:16:47 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well I don't get those two BAD, I guess this means something messed up earlier?
21:17:05 <MikeRiley> there are some bads above too:
21:17:06 <AnMaster> that happened to be before
21:17:13 <AnMaster> well fix those BAD first maybe?
21:17:15 <MikeRiley> BAD: 5kz takes more than 3 ticks
21:17:15 <MikeRiley> BAD: "a  b" takes more than 5 ticks
21:17:17 <AnMaster> oh yes
21:17:19 <MikeRiley> which i know are both correct....
21:17:29 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well yes and no, CCBI had a bug before
21:17:33 <AnMaster> so mycology was buggy
21:17:34 <MikeRiley> i printed cycle counts with my output,,,
21:17:41 <AnMaster> it turned out cfunge was right in cycle count
21:17:46 <AnMaster> err
21:17:47 <MikeRiley> and they take the correct counts..
21:17:49 <AnMaster> tick count
21:17:54 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, talk to Deewiant about it
21:17:59 <MikeRiley> i will have to do that....
21:18:00 <AnMaster> oh he is sleeping
21:18:04 <MikeRiley> not sure how he is testing that....
21:18:06 <AnMaster> send him a mail then
21:18:08 <MikeRiley> not sure his test is right...
21:18:22 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well since it is concurrent test following that code is extremely tricky
21:18:33 <MikeRiley> yes it would be,,,,
21:18:42 <AnMaster> I resorted to debugging CCBI and cfunge side by side to see when they stop doing the same thing
21:18:43 <MikeRiley> so wonder how he is testing for tick counts...
21:18:55 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I think he writes with p using a second thread
21:19:06 <AnMaster> so if the first thread doesn't make it in time it gets redirected
21:19:12 <MikeRiley> hmmmmm
21:19:59 <MikeRiley> will have to ask him about it.....i wonder what he changed that now makes those two tests show bad when they used to be good
21:20:11 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, check that if thread A is about to execute instruction at (1,2) after thread B just finished it's instruction and then B writes a ; to (1,2)
21:20:23 <AnMaster> make sure A takes 0 ticks then as it should
21:20:40 <AnMaster> it was something like that iirc
21:20:50 <MikeRiley> also need to straighten him out on the jump in SUBR
21:20:51 <AnMaster> sadly I can't find it in scrollback, my computer crashed after that
21:21:00 <AnMaster> which reminds me, I should run memtest tonight
21:21:01 <MikeRiley> i will check that in the debugger...
21:21:06 <AnMaster> because I suspect bad memory
21:21:26 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well in SUBR Deewiant think the jumps should be relative storage offset
21:21:33 <AnMaster> I don't know if you agree
21:21:37 <MikeRiley> let me look at SUBR, hold on a sec...
21:21:49 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, your docs leave that UNDEF
21:22:35 <MikeRiley> well,,,,i will fix that for sure,,,the jump does not access funge-space and therefore the storage offset should not be applied to it...
21:22:47 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, aha, well Deewiant was wrong then
21:22:49 <MikeRiley> the jump vector comes off the stack and applied directly to the IPs position....
21:23:13 <AnMaster> right that was what I thought too
21:23:35 <MikeRiley> will make that plain in the docs....but the storage offset does not apply to SUBR....
21:23:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you were wrong about SUBR then
21:23:39 * AnMaster reverts that change
21:24:47 <MikeRiley> uploading new documenation for this
21:24:57 <AnMaster> by the way I prefer fingerprints that only touches stack, they are much easier to debug
21:25:04 <AnMaster> like FPDP and such
21:25:06 <MikeRiley> true,,,,
21:25:17 <MikeRiley> sometimes not possible to do that with some fingerprints tho
21:25:20 <AnMaster> indeed
21:25:27 <AnMaster> but still, a lot easier
21:25:31 <MikeRiley> true....
21:25:38 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, oh btw SOCK can't do non-blocking sockets can it?
21:25:53 <MikeRiley> nope...i think that is why somebody came up with SCKE
21:26:07 <AnMaster> what about blocking socket that only blocks the current IP?
21:26:12 <AnMaster> ie, let the other ones run on
21:26:34 <AnMaster> or does it block all IPs?
21:26:58 <MikeRiley> it will block all IPs actually....could mandate it one way or the other....
21:27:22 <AnMaster> well say that it should block all I think
21:27:25 <MikeRiley> manual updated for the SUBR vectors...
21:27:30 <MikeRiley> can do....
21:27:54 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, but I may make a variant that allows blocking just one IP (somewhat like SCKE)
21:28:05 <AnMaster> maybe
21:28:12 <MikeRiley> i am thinking of making that change to mine too actually...
21:28:14 <AnMaster> I can see uses for both behaviours
21:28:18 <MikeRiley> in that and in the sysV ipc ones as well...
21:28:35 <AnMaster> well changing existing fingerprints are a bad idea
21:28:38 <MikeRiley> the ipc ones have an option for blocking or not...
21:28:46 <MikeRiley> i agree,,,,
21:28:46 <AnMaster> I think you are the only one to implement ipc
21:28:58 <AnMaster> but the SOCK several other ppl implement
21:28:59 <MikeRiley> probably the only one to implement many of my fingerprints!! eheheheheeheh
21:29:04 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, agreed
21:29:26 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, you don't do SGNL?
21:29:35 <AnMaster> or NCRS?
21:29:36 <MikeRiley> many of my fingerprints were the results of boredome and what else could I add to Rc/Funge-98....many of them i am surprised other people implmented...
21:29:51 <MikeRiley> might add SGNL,,,,and probably NRCS as well...
21:29:54 <AnMaster> well a few are certainly useful
21:29:59 <AnMaster> like FPDP and FPSP
21:30:07 <MikeRiley> some are useful.....some are more curiosities...
21:30:22 <MikeRiley> for me FNGR is the most usefull of all...but others disagree with me on it....
21:30:24 <AnMaster> actually I would probably have made FLOT or something with double precision only
21:30:27 <AnMaster> if I had done it myself
21:30:37 <MikeRiley> i had a reason at the time for the 2 different ones....
21:30:49 <AnMaster> FNGR I won't implement, FING I just implemented
21:30:56 <MikeRiley> FPSP came first,,,and was written to operate in the 32-bit cells that i was using...
21:31:09 <AnMaster> LONG I will implement once I figure out how to do arithmetics on 128-bit integers
21:31:17 <MikeRiley> FNGR is nasty to implement,,,i had to change a lot in my interpreter when i implemented that one...
21:31:22 <AnMaster> as cfunge offers 64-bit cells as an option
21:31:31 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, but TRDS is worse I bet
21:31:38 <MikeRiley> not too hard to do 128-bit integers...
21:31:51 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well I got no idea how you handle carry and such
21:31:54 <MikeRiley> TRDS is really a pain!!!! mine still does not work 100% right....
21:32:13 <MikeRiley> not sure deewiant's does either....his works for his test...but some things that his test fails mine work correctly on my tests...
21:32:29 <AnMaster> hm
21:32:36 <MikeRiley> carry can be handled by comparing magnitude of the result to what you started with...
21:32:38 <AnMaster> well yeah, TRDS is messy
21:32:51 <MikeRiley> yes,,,it is very messy,,,and too many unknowns about it....
21:32:54 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, hm got any good source to read up on more about that?
21:33:05 <MikeRiley> never expected anybody to actually implement it!!!! eheheheheheheeheh
21:33:29 <AnMaster> of course if I wanted to use GCC only I could just use __int128_t but well I want to be portable
21:33:39 <MikeRiley> if i can find it,,,,and if you can read 1802 assembly language, i have a long integer math program somewhere that uses the technique...
21:33:48 <AnMaster> 1802?
21:33:53 <AnMaster> what is that
21:33:58 <MikeRiley> yeah,,,,early cpu...made by rca...
21:34:10 <MikeRiley> if you want to know more about it, go to my main website: www.elf-emulation.com
21:34:13 <AnMaster> also I can hardly read any asm except PIC12F62x
21:34:24 <MikeRiley> i did an awful lot of work with the 1802 once upon a time...
21:34:55 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, what is need is a high level C way of doing LONG
21:35:20 <MikeRiley> i agree,,,,one of these days i will convert my assembly code for doing it into c....
21:35:23 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, does rc/funge implement 64-bit cells?
21:35:30 <MikeRiley> no,,,it uses 32-bit cells...
21:35:33 <AnMaster> hm
21:35:38 <oklopol> is there a bignum fingerprint
21:35:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, not that I know of
21:35:45 <MikeRiley> no....thought about adding one....
21:36:02 <oklopol> hmm
21:36:03 <AnMaster> however if you just want Befunge-93 I got a BIGNUM Befunge-93 interpreter coded in erlang
21:36:15 <AnMaster> rather slow though
21:36:20 <MikeRiley> but been busy on the Rc/Funge-98 restructuring to make any new fingerprints right now...
21:36:24 <oklopol> perhaps even a fingerprint that changed all cells to bignums? :D
21:36:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, would be hard to implement in C
21:36:53 <oklopol> AnMaster: i doubt it
21:36:57 <AnMaster> http://bzr.kuonet.org/efunge/trunk/files
21:37:15 <oklopol> you'd just have to reallocate everything when it's done
21:37:30 <oklopol> into arrays of bignums
21:37:35 <oklopol> or whatevery you use for fungespace
21:37:39 <oklopol> *whatever
21:37:48 <AnMaster> oklopol, err... you need a hash map for fungespace
21:37:55 <oklopol> err... no you don't
21:38:02 <AnMaster> in 98 you do
21:38:06 <oklopol> no you don't.
21:38:13 <AnMaster> because you have 2^32 * 2^32 cells
21:38:31 <AnMaster> or even more
21:38:31 <oklopol> well i assumed it has infinite cells
21:38:38 <oklopol> even so, you don't need a hashmap
21:38:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, err depends on cell size
21:38:48 <AnMaster> if you have a 64-bit funge
21:38:54 <AnMaster> you would have 2^64 * 2^64 cells
21:39:08 <oklopol> that's actually specified?
21:39:31 <MikeRiley> you do not need a hash map...i do not use one...
21:39:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, same reason that C have a limited adress space, the result of sizeof() must be finite
21:39:49 <AnMaster> so you need something like a hash map
21:39:57 <AnMaster> there is no way you can use a statically allocated array
21:40:06 <MikeRiley> i use a dynamic array of a form...
21:40:06 <AnMaster> I guess you could use some tree structure or something
21:40:16 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, with an index right?
21:40:21 <MikeRiley> with binary searches on the dynamic array..
21:40:28 <AnMaster> uhu
21:40:41 <MikeRiley> there are two arrays,,,,one containing rows....and then each of those contain an array of cells...
21:41:09 <AnMaster> I actually use a hash with {x,y} as key and the cell as data
21:41:14 <MikeRiley> they are sorted so that retrieval just uses a binary search on the arrays...
21:41:17 <MikeRiley> quite fast...
21:41:33 <MikeRiley> mycology executes in about .2 seconds...
21:41:39 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, so what would happen if I wrote to 2^31-1, 2^31-1
21:41:50 <MikeRiley> it would add 1 cell....1 row....
21:42:05 <AnMaster> hm
21:42:14 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, aren't there cases where it is slow?
21:42:19 <AnMaster> say insert in some cases
21:42:21 <MikeRiley> not that i have seen so far...
21:42:22 <oklopol> well
21:42:26 <MikeRiley> inserts are not too bad....
21:42:27 <AnMaster> hm
21:42:37 <oklopol> you insert something @ n, then start filling from n to 0
21:42:38 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, what if you need to reallocate?
21:42:40 <MikeRiley> maybe if you have 100,000s of rows are cells it could be...
21:42:48 <MikeRiley> but for more standard size programs,,,quite fast...
21:42:50 <oklopol> you need to copy everything each time you write
21:43:06 <oklopol> well, you just need to copy an array of array pointers
21:43:13 <oklopol> so shouldn't be that slow
21:43:20 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well say you write to x=MAX_INT,y=10, then to x=MIN_INT,y=10
21:43:21 <MikeRiley> nope,,,,not too slow at all actually...
21:43:29 <AnMaster> opposite ends of same row
21:43:34 <AnMaster> one in negative x funge space
21:43:41 <oklopol> AnMaster: would add two columns
21:43:51 <MikeRiley> only thing that matters is the number of cells that contain non-32 values...
21:43:57 <AnMaster> um he did it on row basis he said?
21:44:09 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, hm ok
21:44:15 <MikeRiley> you can have a row with something at -2^31 and another at +2^31 and there are only 2 cells created...
21:44:30 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well what if you start inserting from the ends
21:44:39 <MikeRiley> no problem for it....
21:44:49 <AnMaster> ie writing one just below the max then one just above the min and so on
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21:45:00 <AnMaster> you would need to move items up/down right?
21:45:07 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes
21:45:08 <MikeRiley> if you end up with huge numbers of cells it might have an impact...but for something the size of mycology, no big deal...
21:45:24 <MikeRiley> yes, it would resort the row....
21:45:53 <oklopol> resort? you insert, then sort it with like sort()?
21:45:57 <MikeRiley> although i do not currently use memmoves,,,but using them instead of what i do whould be quite fast...
21:46:03 <AnMaster> for (int i=MAX_INT; i > 0; i--) do put(i, 10, 'a');
21:46:04 <AnMaster> say
21:46:14 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean
21:46:18 <oklopol> because it's faster to do it incrementally
21:46:25 <MikeRiley> i agree,,,,with larger numbers of cells it would be slower...
21:46:32 <MikeRiley> but only to insert....not retrieve...
21:46:37 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, hm...
21:47:00 <MikeRiley> retrieval is on a binary search algorithm,,,so for a row 256 cells long,,,only 8 cells need to be examined...
21:47:18 <AnMaster> hm
21:47:52 <MikeRiley> each row hols the z and y of the row,,,each cell holds the x....
21:47:54 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I'm quite sure it is possible to write some program for which that gives very bad performance
21:48:02 <MikeRiley> i am sure it is possible....
21:48:20 <MikeRiley> but i think for the average funge program,,,it should operate just fine...
21:48:27 <AnMaster> while a hash map is worse on average but will perform much better in such a case
21:48:34 <MikeRiley> agreed
21:49:05 <MikeRiley> question is,,,,performance for the average??? or perfomance for the unusual???
21:49:13 <MikeRiley> just a design decision....
21:49:35 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, have you fuzz tested rc/funge?
21:49:40 <MikeRiley> no....
21:49:41 <AnMaster> to check that it doesn't crash on stuff
21:49:44 <AnMaster> ah I have for cfunge
21:50:00 <MikeRiley> i am sure it will crash quite hard for unusual cases!!! eheheheheeheheh
21:50:14 <MikeRiley> should try it tho....just for grins....
21:50:20 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well, fuzz testing helped me find crash on: 2k@
21:50:21 <AnMaster> for example
21:50:25 <AnMaster> or 2kt
21:50:29 <AnMaster> also had such issues
21:50:43 <MikeRiley> 2k@ would not cause mine any problems...
21:50:46 <MikeRiley> 2kt,,,,do not know....
21:51:07 * AnMaster runs the fuzzer on FING now
21:51:16 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I wrote a shell script to fuzz test
21:51:16 <MikeRiley> as far as my interpreter is concenred,,,you can only kill the IP once....
21:51:28 <MikeRiley>  no matter how many @'s you execute on it...
21:51:56 <AnMaster> all that is needed is info about what instructions each fingerprint implements (currently extracted from cfunge header files) and that the main() in the interpreter set an alarm() to kill itself off after 3 seconds
21:52:02 <MikeRiley> 2kt might do interesting things tho!!!!
21:52:03 <AnMaster> aha a crash
21:52:09 <AnMaster> cfunge: /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/stack.c:115: StackPushNoCheck: Assertion `stack->top < stack->size' failed.
21:52:12 <AnMaster> blergh
21:55:10 <AnMaster> well it happened after several y
21:55:17 <MikeRiley> hmmmmm
21:55:28 <AnMaster> and multiple threads
22:05:57 <dogface_> I suddenly wonder if you're doing a Core Wars-like thing.
22:07:05 <AnMaster> dogface_, eh?
22:07:34 <dogface_> @ killing the IP and all.
22:09:11 <MikeRiley> hmmmmsounds fun.....core wars for befunge!!!
22:10:46 <dogface_> My gosh, I just realized something.
22:12:14 <AnMaster> huh
22:12:17 <AnMaster> stack size 2?
22:12:21 <AnMaster> that should never happen
22:12:54 <AnMaster> 1: *stack = {size = 2, top = 1, entries = 0x22dce60}
22:13:00 <AnMaster> that should not be possible in cfunge
22:13:17 <MikeRiley> so how did it then??
22:13:21 <AnMaster> because stack is allocated with size 4096, and I never shrink it
22:13:29 <oklopol> dogface_: what did you realize?
22:13:30 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, trying to find that out
22:13:58 <dogface_> Actually, I kind of realized it a while ago.
22:14:22 <AnMaster> wait actually it could I think with threads... maybe
22:14:33 <oklopol> dogface_: okay, nothing then...
22:14:50 <dogface_> I realized that Thue, with its nondeterminism and "this is this" paradigm, is, by some measures, more appropriate for artificial intelligence than languages like Prolog.
22:15:04 <AnMaster> doh
22:15:08 <AnMaster> < instead of >
22:15:23 <dogface_> What I realized longer ago is that a strongly-typed Thue on graphs is... pretty nice.
22:17:14 <dogface_> Coming up with a type system for such a thing as graph Thue is left as an exercise for the reader. Hint: use the same type system as natural languages do, maybe.
22:18:05 <AnMaster> I don't even know thue
22:18:55 <dogface_> Conócelo ahora mismo.
22:19:47 <AnMaster> night all
22:19:56 <dogface_> Oh.
22:19:58 <dogface_> Good night.
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22:23:32 <dogface_> Okay, typing system. It's a tree, not an arbitrary graph. There are finitely many types (gasp). Some atoms are nullary and have types, other atoms are unary and have an input type and an output type. There is a single binary atom, which takes any two values and has the type of the first.
22:24:10 <dogface_> The type of the entire thing must be :o
22:24:30 <dogface_> Or :<, in kaelis edition.
22:25:19 <dogface_> The type system was not completely arbitrary. :o was.
22:25:39 <dogface_> I think I'll call this language :o, even. Doesn't that sound fun?
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22:40:05 <oklopol> dogface_: very fun
22:40:24 <dogface_> Yay.
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22:52:02 <dogface_> In my language, this sentence would be a valid expression if it didn't contain the following: "Blah."
22:53:13 <dogface_> All post-word punctuation (in the above, a comma, a colon, two quotation marks and a period) must have a space next to it.
22:56:39 <dogface_> Which means that *that* sentence *is* a valid expression. These two are not, however, as * is not valid punctuation.
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23:26:48 <tusho> dogface_: would this be valid:
23:26:52 <tusho> NOT ALL DOGS ARE DOGS!
23:27:07 <dogface_> That is syntactically valid, yes.
23:27:38 <dogface_> Most English sentences are.
23:28:01 <tusho> dogface_: what about
23:28:07 <tusho> DOGS, DOGS I TELL YOU... DOGS!!
23:28:45 <dogface_> No, because two of the periods and one of the exclamation points does not have a space on either side.
23:32:11 <tusho> dogface_: You said most english sentences were valid
23:32:41 <dogface_> I did.
23:33:09 <dogface_> Most English sentences do not have ellipses or double exclamation marks.
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23:46:59 <dogface_> I suddenly feel I'm not up to writing a spec for :o.
23:56:53 <dogface_> Have a Thue Artificial Intelligence Standard: The compiler/interpreter should favor removing the letter H over adding it, and it should prefer adding the letter W over removing it. It should be ambivalent about adding or removing one of each.
23:58:08 <dogface_> Actually, say that the letter T is equivalent to the letter W for these purposes.

2008-08-20:

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00:48:17 <oklopol> ERR YEAH!!
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02:12:47 <psygnisfive> hey oklopol
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06:52:22 <asiekierka> Hey
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08:19:38 <fizzie> Postfix wiki "Statistics" page: "There are 1,413 total pages in the database. This includes "talk" pages, pages about postfix, minimal "stub" pages, redirects, and others that probably don't qualify as content pages. Excluding those, there are 4 pages that are probably legitimate content pages."
08:20:20 <fizzie> I'm not sure which one is funnier: the fact that there are only 4 (out of 1413) pages of content, or that "pages about postfix" don't count as legitimate content on the Postfix wiki.
08:44:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, hahaha
08:45:10 <AnMaster> well blame mediawiki
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11:06:30 <MikeRiley> you about deewiant???
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11:44:58 <MikeRiley> you about Deewiant???
11:47:26 <tusho> MikeRiley: he's marked as away
11:47:28 <tusho> so no
11:47:38 <MikeRiley> ok, thanks
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12:20:47 <Deewiant> heh, I missed him by 5 minutes both time
12:20:58 <Deewiant> +s
12:21:25 <fizzie> Them fates, they are against your union.
12:21:26 <Deewiant> next time, tell him to just state his business :-P
12:21:42 <Deewiant> IRC is asynchronous, that's the beauty of it
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12:43:46 <oklopol> o
12:44:41 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: int a = 1;
12:44:41 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: in Python you'd just use nested lists...
12:45:02 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: a = True
12:45:02 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: Frankenstein is the doctor.
12:45:36 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: a is Frankenstein ?
12:45:36 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: say, HRTI
12:45:58 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot is False
12:45:58 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: heh
12:46:05 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot is None
12:46:05 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: <li><a href="upload.php"><?php print $upload; ?></a></li>
12:46:51 <oklopol> tusho: maybe, for that conversator, you could do something different than a markov chain, just use entire sentences like that, but try to keep context by remembering what words have been used in the sentences
12:47:17 <oklopol> and use sentences with those words more probably than others
12:47:19 <tusho> oklopol: no
12:47:21 <tusho> it is perfect as it is
12:47:30 <tusho> remember, it has operating hours
12:47:31 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: <ul><li><p>optbot is False</p><p>optbot!</p><p>optbot is True</p></li></ul>
12:47:32 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: I can't be agnostic because I actively disbelieve in divinity and the supernatural.
12:47:40 <oklopol> operating hours?
12:48:11 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: return False
12:48:11 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: "works fine" means "without issues" to me :-)
12:50:33 <tusho> oklopol: it is only coherent in its operating hours
12:54:03 <oklopol> what are operating hours.
12:54:59 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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12:55:21 <Deewiant> optbot!
12:55:21 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Name That Language!.
12:56:44 <fizzie> optbot; Are you the perfect bot?
12:56:44 <optbot> fizzie: MILLIONS OF WAYS TO MODIFY IT!
12:57:41 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: We are perfect and you not !
12:57:41 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: Assuming you're outputting to a file and simply playing that file raw?
12:58:35 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: sv_cheats 1
12:58:35 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: Swell.
12:59:30 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: exec(sys.exit())
12:59:30 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: hehe
12:59:46 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: eval(sys.exit())
12:59:47 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: that's right
13:00:05 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: "import sys; sys.exit()"
13:00:06 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: and put it on the web so we can compare
13:00:11 <Deewiant> optbot: no, that's wrong
13:00:12 <optbot> Deewiant: no
13:00:14 <Deewiant> optbot: no
13:00:15 <optbot> Deewiant: very good
13:00:18 <Deewiant> optbot: yes
13:00:18 <optbot> Deewiant: do you think i should skip tomorrow's lecture? :)
13:00:20 <Deewiant> optbot: yes
13:00:21 <optbot> Deewiant: or something
13:00:23 <Deewiant> optbot: yes
13:00:23 <optbot> Deewiant: yes
13:01:23 <KingOfKarlsruhe> !optbot
13:01:24 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: Haskell is OO in senses 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7.  But its form of 7 blows
13:01:38 <KingOfKarlsruhe> !optbot?!?!?!?!
13:01:38 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: free legal music by independant artists :D]
13:02:39 <oklopol> optbot: why the fuck are you yessing and noing now, when just a few days ago you wouldn't give me a boolean no matter how many times i asked
13:02:40 <optbot> oklopol: That was a red herring?
13:03:05 <oklopol> optbot: err sure
13:03:05 <optbot> oklopol: hihi
13:03:15 <oklopol> optbot: fuck you
13:03:16 <optbot> oklopol: The concept behind it, eh?
13:03:22 <oklopol> optbot: exactly
13:03:23 <optbot> oklopol: that's 10 years internet time :)
13:03:39 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: exec(raise StandardError)
13:03:39 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: oklopol is female? or are we talking manboobs?
13:03:45 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
13:04:11 <tusho> [12:54:04] <oklopol> what are operating hours.
13:04:18 <tusho> the hours in which it is coherent
13:04:20 <tusho> they are secret, sorry.
13:04:32 <oklopol> i see, i see.
13:05:06 <fizzie> optvot; Pssst, what are your secret operating hours?
13:05:12 <fizzie> optbot^
13:05:12 <optbot> fizzie: :)
13:05:34 <fizzie> optbot; Are you mocking my typing skills!
13:05:35 <optbot> fizzie: (and to note; i have been away from 4th till today 18:45 when i arrived on this channel today)
13:05:52 <fizzie> Apparently now is not part of the operating hours.
13:06:01 <Deewiant> optbot: what are your public operating hours
13:06:02 <optbot> Deewiant: :p
13:06:09 <Deewiant> Yes, evidently not.
13:08:30 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf
13:08:30 <KingOfKarlsruhe> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[->+>++>+++<<<]>>>------.+.++++.------------------.+++++++++++++.+++++.----------------------------------------------------------.--------------------------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-----.------.++++++++.-------------------------------------------.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+
13:08:30 <KingOfKarlsruhe> +++.-----------.-------.+++++++++++++.+++++.
13:11:02 <fizzie> ^code 0a->:# 0# \# 0# \# p# 1# -# _  ;(just preparing space for the ^str functionality, hope I don't break fungot with this);
13:11:03 <fungot> P~.v~vA�
13:11:12 <fizzie> Well, that wasn't supposed to happen.
13:11:42 <fizzie> I think I forgot a : before the if, and the corresponding $ after it.
13:11:54 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:12:02 <fizzie> Well, might as well get it initialized properly.
13:12:31 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: say "hello"
13:12:31 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: Fugue source works a lot better in MIDI because that makes it a lot easier for a computer to figure out the intervals
13:12:51 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: help
13:12:51 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: that's definitely subjective
13:13:03 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: confirm
13:13:03 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: Interesting.
13:16:11 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 4200+ at 2850 MHz
13:16:11 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: final bad id C in SOCK...for some reason on my system it is not connecting...
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13:19:11 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: [ 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5 ]
13:19:11 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: that'd be a challenge.
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13:34:32 <fizzie> ^str 0 set foo
13:34:32 <fungot> Set: foo
13:34:37 <fizzie> ^str 0 add bar
13:34:38 <fungot> Added.
13:34:40 <fizzie> ^str 0 get
13:34:41 <fungot> foobar
13:34:45 <fizzie> ^str 0 something else
13:34:46 <fungot> Usage: ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
13:35:30 <fizzie> There are ten strings there for program input. Next I need to make ^def to accept "str:0" type arguments referring to those strings, then you can again insert longer programs.
13:38:33 <fizzie> Actually I should probably also check
13:38:38 <fizzie> ^str 9 get
13:38:44 <fizzie> Hmm.
13:39:13 <fizzie> :orwell.freenode.net 412 fungot :No text to send
13:39:37 <fizzie> I guess it tried to send an empty line without even the PRIVMSG prefix. That wasn't supposed to happen.
13:40:09 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:41:59 <fizzie> Or does an empty message also generate that error? Maybe it does.
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13:45:58 <fizzie> ^str 9 get
13:45:58 <fungot> Empty.
13:46:34 <fizzie> Well, you can't now distinguish between "" and "Empty.", but maybe that isn't an issue.
13:46:43 <fizzie> ^help
13:46:43 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf
13:50:40 <fizzie> ^reload
13:50:41 <fungot> Reloaded.
13:50:44 <fizzie> ^help
13:50:45 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
13:51:27 <oklopol> ^str 0 set ++++++++++
13:51:28 <fungot> Set: ++++++++++
13:51:32 <oklopol> ^str 0 add ++++++++++
13:51:32 <fungot> Added.
13:51:35 <oklopol> ^str 0 add ++++++++++
13:51:35 <fungot> Added.
13:51:37 <oklopol> ^str 0 add ++++++++++
13:51:37 <fungot> Added.
13:51:37 <oklopol> ^str 0 add ++++++++++
13:51:38 <oklopol> ^str 0 add ++++++++++
13:51:38 <fungot> Added.
13:51:38 <oklopol> ^str 0 add ++++++++++
13:51:38 <fungot> Added.
13:51:38 <oklopol> ^str 0 add ++++++++++
13:51:38 <fungot> Added.
13:51:38 <oklopol> ^str 0 add ++++++++++
13:51:39 <fungot> Added.
13:51:39 <fungot> Added.
13:51:40 <oklopol> ^str 0 add ++++++++++
13:51:40 <fungot> Added.
13:51:54 <oklopol> ^def arjiu bf str:0
13:51:54 <fungot> Defined.
13:52:01 <oklopol> hmph.
13:52:06 <oklopol> ^str 0 add .
13:52:07 <fungot> Added.
13:52:09 <oklopol> ^def arjiu bf str:0
13:52:09 <fungot> Defined.
13:52:13 <oklopol> ^arjiu ds
13:52:59 <oklopol> ^show arjiu
13:53:08 <fizzie> It doesn't have that thing yet.
13:53:23 <fizzie> ^def arjiu bf str:0...
13:53:24 <fungot> Defined.
13:53:25 <fizzie> ^show arjiu
13:53:26 <fungot> ...
13:53:34 <fizzie> It just picks those bf characters in there.
13:53:46 <fizzie> But it's next on the to-implement list.
13:54:16 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf +++[->++.<]
13:54:16 <fungot> ...
13:54:41 <fizzie> And <32 characters are still filtered to dots.
13:54:49 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[->++.<]
13:54:49 <fungot> ............... "$&(*,.02468:<>@BDFHJLNPRTVXZ\^
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13:55:47 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf +[+[.]]
13:55:47 <fungot> ...............................................................................................................................................................................................................  ...
13:56:06 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf +[++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.]]
13:56:06 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111  ...
13:56:47 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf +[++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.+]]
13:56:47 <fungot> 123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~��������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������
13:58:26 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.]
13:58:26 <fungot> 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
13:58:32 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[+.]
13:58:32 <fungot> 123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~��������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������
13:59:41 <fizzie> It is on #esoteric-blah too if you feel like printing more of those character sets.
13:59:41 <KingOfKarlsruhe> ^bf +[+>++>+++>++++>++++++>+++++++<.<.<.<.<.]
13:59:42 <fungot> .........................$....*....0 ...6$...<(...B,!..H0$..N4'..T8*..Z<-..`@0 .fD3".lH6$.rL9&.xP<(.~T?*.�XB,.�\E..�`H0.�dK2.�hN4.�lQ6.�pT8.�tW:.�xZ<.�|]> ��`@!ƄcB"̈fD#ҌiF$ؐlH%ޔoJ&�rL'�uN(�xP)��{R*��
14:00:01 <AnMaster> <fizzie> ^str 9 get <-- huh?
14:00:10 <AnMaster> what language is str?
14:00:25 <AnMaster> ^bf [[
14:00:26 <fungot> Mismatched [].
14:00:32 <AnMaster> ^bf <
14:00:35 <AnMaster> ^bf .
14:00:36 <fungot> .
14:00:38 <AnMaster> ^bf <.
14:00:39 <fungot> .
14:00:41 <AnMaster> hm
14:00:48 <fizzie> It's not a language, it's just a command. There are 10 strings that can be manipulated with ^str X get/set/add.
14:00:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, does it wrap the tape?
14:01:04 <fizzie> Yes, it's a 1000-cell tape that wraps.
14:01:06 <AnMaster> also why just 10 tapes?
14:01:08 <AnMaster> err
14:01:12 <AnMaster> 10 strings
14:01:50 <fizzie> 10 should be enough for everyone. :p
14:02:16 <fizzie> I don't want to use the whole of negative fungespace for strings of potentially unlimited length. Now it takes only rows from -10 to -1.
14:02:38 <fizzie> It's really just for inputting longer-than-500-chars programs.
14:02:53 <fizzie> Well, will be, as soon as I get ^def ... str:X working.
14:02:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there?
14:03:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did you see what Mike said about that SUBR should *not* be relative the storage offset
14:03:21 <fizzie> ^str 0 get
14:03:22 <fungot> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
14:04:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, where is the source for the bot now again?
14:05:51 <AnMaster> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
14:05:52 <fungot> d
14:06:14 <AnMaster> ^show
14:06:14 <fungot> arjiu
14:06:17 <AnMaster> err?
14:06:20 <AnMaster> what does that mean
14:06:20 <fizzie> AnMaster; http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt although it's not runnable as-is, it needs a loader.
14:06:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, link to loader then?
14:06:38 <fizzie> I don't know what 'arjiu' means, oklopol defined it.
14:06:52 <AnMaster> ^
14:06:58 <AnMaster> ^^bf .
14:07:01 <AnMaster> ^bf .
14:07:02 <fungot> .
14:07:06 <AnMaster> hm didn't break it
14:07:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, befunge is like basic with goto only, only the original author can really maintain any non-trivial programs written in those languages
14:07:55 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot-load-freenode.b98.txt is what I use to load the freenode instance.
14:08:08 <AnMaster> that is beyond hello world
14:08:12 <fizzie> Well, there are comments in fungot.
14:08:34 <fizzie> Maybe they won't help much, though. :p
14:09:35 <fizzie> Still, the basic structure is pretty simple. There are all those ^commands chained on the downward-going route at column 4, and after those columns 5 and 6 are used to call the brainfuck bytecode compiler and interpreter, and columns 79/80 are used for returning from there.
14:09:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, so it depends on i
14:10:09 <AnMaster> you should check if that is available using y in the loader :)
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14:10:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, because for example cfunge got a "safe mode" that disables io= and some fingerprints
14:10:54 <fizzie> If it's not available, it probably fails with the (misleading) "missing source" error message since i presumably reflects then. I don't think that's too bad.
14:11:06 <AnMaster> indeed it will reflect
14:11:18 <AnMaster> but portable funge is important! ;)
14:12:11 <AnMaster> just kidding
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14:32:13 <fizzie> ^reload
14:32:14 <fungot> Reloaded.
14:32:22 <fizzie> ^str 0 set ,[.,]
14:32:22 <fungot> Set: ,[.,]
14:32:29 <fizzie> ^def echo bf str:0
14:32:29 <fungot> Defined.
14:32:32 <fizzie> ^show echo
14:32:32 <fungot> ,[.,]
14:32:36 <fizzie> ^echo Yay.
14:32:36 <fungot> Yay.
14:32:54 <fizzie> I guess I need to add something to the help about it.
14:36:29 <fizzie> ^reload
14:36:30 <fungot> Reloaded.
14:36:30 <fizzie> ^help
14:36:31 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
14:37:37 <fizzie> ^str 0 set >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]
14:37:38 <fungot> Set: >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]
14:38:11 <fizzie> ^str 0 add <[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[.>]
14:38:12 <fungot> Added.
14:38:15 <fizzie> ^str 0 get
14:38:16 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[.>]
14:38:21 <fizzie> ^def echo bf str:0
14:38:22 <fungot> Defined.
14:38:25 <fizzie> ^show echo
14:38:26 <fungot> >1,[>1,]>999[>999]>1[.>1]>999[>999]+32>1[.>1]
14:38:32 <fizzie> ^echo Did I mess it up this time?
14:38:33 <fungot> Did I mess it up this time?Did I mess it up this time?
14:39:41 <fizzie> At least I forgot the . after +32 so that there would be the space.
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14:54:12 <AnMaster> <fizzie> ^def echo bf str:0
14:54:13 <AnMaster> huh?
14:54:24 <AnMaster> str:0 isn't brainfuck
14:54:48 <fizzie> Yes, a str:0 code URL means it uses the string 0.
14:54:51 <fizzie> ^str 0 get
14:54:51 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>[.>]
14:55:18 <fizzie> Much like a http:// will in the far future mean it fetches a document via HTTP.
14:55:38 <fizzie> ^help
14:55:38 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
14:56:02 <fizzie> See; the <code> part can be either plaintext, or a str:N URL.
14:58:32 <AnMaster> ^bf http://kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/linux-2.6.26.2.tar.bz2
14:58:33 <fungot> ..�����
14:58:34 <AnMaster> XD
14:58:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, you want to be careful with that
14:58:56 <AnMaster> or someone could make you download an entire ISO
14:59:12 <AnMaster> say live dvd for Knoppix
14:59:33 <fizzie> I don't think I'll add URL-handling to plain ^bf, only to ^def. It's (currently) a bit easier in there. Although I guess it could be in the program-preparation call path, too, so that it would work in both.
14:59:39 <fizzie> Well, I can move it there later.
14:59:50 <fizzie> Yes, some sort of length limitation could be a good idea there too.
15:00:18 <fizzie> I don't want a funge-space 4 billion cells wide, anyway.
15:00:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, and you don't want to try to check lostkingdom for matching [] :P
15:00:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, err depends on implementation
15:01:22 <oklopol> ^bf [
15:01:23 <fungot> Mismatched [].
15:01:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, cfunge uses n-bit cells and n-bit vectors, where n is defined at compile time to either 32 or 64
15:02:59 <fizzie> I don't have enough memory for <size of a DVD in bytes> cells, no matter what the implementation.
15:03:26 <AnMaster> well it would be something like 4 GB
15:03:36 <AnMaster> oh and I only have 1.5 GB RAM myself
15:03:42 <fizzie> 4.7 billion bytes for a plain single-layer disc, but they come in larger sizes too.
15:03:48 <AnMaster> anyway at least cfunge would have some overhead there
15:03:54 <AnMaster> as it uses a hash table
15:04:07 <AnMaster> lets see what overhead would be
15:04:55 <tusho> ^def x http://ftp.uni-kl.de/pub/linux/knoppix/KNOPPIX_V5.1.0CD-2006-12-30-DE.iso
15:04:56 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
15:04:58 <AnMaster> assume 32-bit cells for now, then... 4 bytes for cell value, 8 bytes for the x/y of said cell, in other words 12 bytes / cell, now I don't know the details of the hash library but that adds some more overehad
15:04:59 <AnMaster> head*
15:05:01 <tusho> ^def x bf http://ftp.uni-kl.de/pub/linux/knoppix/KNOPPIX_V5.1.0CD-2006-12-30-DE.iso
15:05:02 <fungot> Defined.
15:05:06 <tusho> ^def x bf s:http://ftp.uni-kl.de/pub/linux/knoppix/KNOPPIX_V5.1.0CD-2006-12-30-DE.iso
15:05:07 <fungot> Defined.
15:05:17 <AnMaster> tusho it doesn't work yet
15:05:22 <tusho> :(
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15:06:12 <fizzie> Don't get too excited by the coming reload, it won't be HTTP urls yet.
15:06:14 <fizzie> ^reload
15:06:14 <fungot> Reloaded.
15:06:27 <fizzie> It just fixed some error handling in there.
15:06:38 <fizzie> ^def x bf str:?
15:06:39 <fungot> Bad str: URL.
15:08:00 <fungot> optbot: Do you want to write me a HTTP client in Funge-98?
15:08:01 <optbot> fungot: Woo.
15:08:29 <fungot> optbot: ...uh, was that a yes or a no?
15:08:29 <optbot> fungot: the regexp + # thing
15:13:00 <AnMaster> that would be REXP?
15:13:05 <AnMaster> or whatever that fingerprint is called
15:13:13 <AnMaster> optbot, say no
15:13:13 <optbot> AnMaster: whats everyone think about Visual Studio?
15:13:34 <AnMaster> optbot, oh is this Jeopardy?
15:13:34 <optbot> AnMaster: that's exactly what i can't figure out, is there an implementation :P
15:13:40 <AnMaster> lol
15:16:35 <AnMaster> optbot, Implementation of what?
15:16:35 <optbot> AnMaster: mmm. Python looks cool. Maybe I'll use that for my next esolang
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15:19:25 <fizzie> optbot; A Python implementation? A Jeopardy implementation?
15:19:25 <optbot> fizzie: maybe deliberate
15:19:41 <fizzie> optbot; Have you seen many accidental implementations, then?
15:19:42 <optbot> fizzie: ==2559== malloc/free: 1 allocs, 1 frees, 65,536 bytes allocated.
15:20:08 <fizzie> optbot; Sounds like valgrind.
15:20:08 <optbot> fizzie: s/ke/key
15:20:32 <fizzie> optbot; Huh? "Sounds likey valgrind"?
15:20:32 <optbot> fizzie: but yes, open to them
15:20:49 <fizzie> NURR so confused NURR.
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15:33:46 <fizzie> Uh... I guess I will need SCKE for the http:// URLs, since SOCK doesn't have hostname lookup services.
15:35:58 <Deewiant> quite
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16:08:45 <MikeRiley> you about Deewiant???
16:10:08 -!- Hiato has joined.
16:12:37 <oklopol> MikeRiley: "you about Deewiant" means absolutely nothing
16:12:50 <oklopol> but do state your businesses
16:13:12 <MikeRiley> need to talk with him about a few things...
16:14:12 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: the nice thing about IRC is that even if I'm not about, you can say what you like and I can see it later :-)
16:14:27 <MikeRiley> true,,,,but wanted dialog.....
16:14:29 <Deewiant> especially here, where everything is publically logged
16:14:37 <MikeRiley> starting with SUBR....
16:14:58 <Deewiant> yeah, so I gather you and AnMaster agree that it should be absolute
16:15:09 <MikeRiley> since the vectors used by the jumps are not accesses to funge-space, they should not have the storage offset applied to them...
16:15:25 <MikeRiley> for SUBR they should be absolute,,,since no funge-space access...
16:15:35 <MikeRiley> INDV on the other hand,, should be relative all the way through...
16:15:48 <Deewiant> but they are vectors pointing to funge-space
16:16:00 <MikeRiley> no,,,they are vectors that change the position/delta of the ip....
16:16:14 <MikeRiley> they are moving the ip...not access funge-space'
16:16:16 <Deewiant> exactly, position
16:16:26 <Deewiant> which means that the vector points to a location in funge-space
16:16:46 <MikeRiley> plus...if you have subroutines you are trying to use....they are not going to move if you use { and now the vectors will not work for them anymore...
16:16:57 <MikeRiley> but not ACCESSING funge-space...
16:17:11 <Deewiant> the thing about { is that it makes for maintainable code
16:17:26 <Deewiant> consider 12J
16:17:32 <MikeRiley> but SUBR addresses become meaningless with { if they are relative...
16:18:04 <MikeRiley> J might make sense,,,,but the call and return do not...
16:18:14 <Deewiant> I think the relative solution is more robust: if you need to call an external subroutine from within a {, write a helper subroutine which uses u to un-apply the storage offset
16:18:33 <Deewiant> with absolute, there's just no way to handle all cases easily
16:18:53 <Deewiant> in such a way that moving the code around in the file doesn't affect it's functionality
16:18:57 <Deewiant> s/it's/its/
16:19:11 <MikeRiley> in that case, might be better to modify the fingerprint and add a new function to select relative or absolute addressing...
16:19:25 <Deewiant> hmm
16:19:39 <MikeRiley> my use of SUBR requires absolute,,,at least for C and R,,,,do not use J much...
16:20:03 <Deewiant> yeah, something that flips a per-IP flag would work
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16:20:09 <Deewiant> although that makes it feral
16:20:13 <Deewiant> not that it matters
16:20:27 <MikeRiley> not really....matters i mean....
16:20:32 <MikeRiley> still easy to implement,,,
16:20:47 <Deewiant> I think the whole feral/tame distinction is a bit pointless anyway :-P
16:20:53 <MikeRiley> i agree....
16:21:08 <Deewiant> but yeah, I'd be happy with a flag
16:21:30 <MikeRiley> ok,,,then will modify the fingerprint to allow for both,,,,
16:21:45 <Deewiant> alright
16:21:49 <MikeRiley> next.....
16:22:02 <MikeRiley> i have these working again:
16:22:03 <MikeRiley> GOOD: 5kz takes 3 ticks
16:22:04 <MikeRiley> GOOD: "a  b" takes 5 ticks
16:22:13 <Deewiant> what was the problem in your case
16:22:15 <Deewiant> same as CCBI?
16:22:16 <MikeRiley> and in doing so have discovered that one of the mycology tests is fault...
16:22:27 <MikeRiley> in my case the ;block;s were taking a tick...
16:22:40 <MikeRiley> which means this one:
16:22:41 <MikeRiley> GOOD: jumping over code with ; takes 0 ticks
16:22:46 <Deewiant> :-/
16:22:54 <MikeRiley> which has always been good....should have been bad before i fixed the ;blocks;...
16:23:33 <MikeRiley> was hard to find the problem,,,,if that test would have shown bad,,,would have been able to find it much quicker...
16:23:39 <Deewiant> hmm, the code there looks a bit strange
16:23:46 <Deewiant> lessee
16:24:23 <MikeRiley> once i started single stepping through the test with debugger,,,that is when i discovered the problem with the ; blocks...
16:24:32 <MikeRiley> once i fixed that,,,the other 2 tests showed good again...
16:25:57 <Deewiant> yeah, there seems indeed to be a bug there, wonder why
16:26:51 <MikeRiley> i was going to step through that test...but ended with an interuption and could not get back to it...
16:26:51 <Deewiant> oh well, easy to fix
16:27:15 <Deewiant> must have messed with something else that caused a de-synch
16:27:23 <Deewiant> anyway, just replaced some space with a v
16:27:42 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,
16:27:46 <MikeRiley> two new SUBR commands:
16:27:53 <MikeRiley> A   ( -- )              Set absolute addressing mode
16:27:58 <MikeRiley> O   ( -- )              Set offset (relative) mode
16:28:01 <Deewiant> specifically the one at (131,154) if you're interested
16:28:05 <MikeRiley> default mode when SUBR loads is absolute...
16:28:18 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,thanks..
16:30:33 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: remember to document that the mode is per-IP :-)
16:30:41 <Deewiant> oh, btw, question
16:31:18 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: how does FRTH interact with invert mode?
16:31:33 <Deewiant> and maybe queue mode as well, I forget exactly what they do
16:32:12 <Deewiant> but anyway, should they always push on top of the stack (since that's the wording in the FORTH ANSI standard) or should they pop and push according to the modes
16:32:13 <MikeRiley> will do that...
16:32:36 <MikeRiley> FRTH should work ok in invert mode....i think...in my implementation it uses the standard Pop and Push routines....
16:32:55 <MikeRiley> should push and pop according to the modes...
16:33:15 <Deewiant> okay thanks, and I'd like you to document that as well :-)
16:34:20 <MikeRiley> doing so now....
16:34:58 <MikeRiley> any other documentation changes you would like??
16:35:12 <Deewiant> probably yes, but can't think of any off the top of my head :-)
16:35:22 <MikeRiley> eheheheheheheheh
16:36:05 <tusho> [16:20:48] <Deewiant> I think the whole feral/tame distinction is a bit pointless anyway :-P
16:36:10 <tusho> lets anmaster only implement the easy stuff.
16:36:32 <Deewiant> tusho: hm, I'm sure he's implemented something feral
16:36:37 <MikeRiley> A and O are now added to my SUBR,,,now how about fixing Mycology????
16:36:51 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: just add an O somewhere early :-P
16:36:59 <MikeRiley> ok,,,
16:37:52 <AnMaster> well have you decided on SUBR
16:37:59 <AnMaster> should it be relative or absolute
16:38:00 <MikeRiley> yes we have...
16:38:02 <MikeRiley> both....
16:38:07 <MikeRiley> two new commands in SUBR....
16:38:12 <AnMaster> err
16:38:19 <MikeRiley> A sets absolute mode,,,which is the default mode when it is loaded...
16:38:23 <MikeRiley> O sets relative mode...
16:38:24 <AnMaster> to change a fingerprint after it has been published is bad
16:39:01 <AnMaster> and thus I will not implement this, because once a fingerprint is published it is set in stone
16:39:19 <MikeRiley> i know,,,,but by having the default absolute mode, then software using SUBR should not break...
16:39:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: where does it say that
16:39:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in common sense
16:39:32 <MikeRiley> since SUBR never intended the storage offset to be used with it...
16:39:46 <MikeRiley> in that case anmaster,,,which mode are you using???
16:39:56 <MikeRiley> original mode was absolute,,,not relative...
16:40:04 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, absolute or relative is fine, that is just defining a undef
16:40:13 <AnMaster> but adding new commands, well I'm against that
16:40:21 <MikeRiley> hmmmmmmmmm
16:40:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: common sense says that since there is approximately 1 program that uses it, it doesn't matter
16:40:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well why was SCKE made, why not only change SOCK?
16:40:59 <MikeRiley> i use SUBR a lot in my stuff...and it assumes absolute...
16:41:00 <AnMaster> if that is what you suggest
16:41:13 <MikeRiley> because he was not the originator of SOCK....
16:41:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: he did change SOCK as well :-P
16:41:30 <AnMaster> you need versioned fingerprints then
16:41:32 <MikeRiley> had he come to me instead of making SCKE,,,,i probably would have added his changes to SOCK...
16:41:40 <AnMaster> say: V = Get fingerprint version
16:41:48 <AnMaster> so the program can adapt after that
16:41:49 <AnMaster> :P
16:42:10 <MikeRiley> fingerprint versioning is certainly an interesting idea....
16:42:17 <MikeRiley> which you pretty much have covered in 108....
16:42:20 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well with URIs in 108 that is easy
16:42:27 <MikeRiley> agreed...
16:42:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: we do have versioned fingerprints, starting at version 2008-08-20 SUBR has two new instructions :-P
16:42:47 <AnMaster> and if you wanted you could have a base uri that always load the last version *implemented in the interpreter*
16:42:48 <MikeRiley> eheheheheeheheh
16:43:00 <AnMaster> may not be the last defined version though
16:43:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then I shall implement the old one
16:43:22 <AnMaster> and of course mycology needs to support that then
16:43:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: sorry, Mycology tests the newest only
16:43:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then it need to gracefully say that, not fail
16:44:02 <Deewiant> I can add it to the readme :-P
16:44:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but you do realize that was a joke anyway :-P
16:44:26 <Deewiant> they aren't versioned if you can't tell the difference between two versions
16:44:34 <AnMaster> well I could make a SCK6 or something, then I could change it and well mycology wouldn't be right until you updated it would it? ;P
16:44:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and indeed
16:45:30 <MikeRiley> just my opinion here,,,i too agree that fingerprints should not be changed too much without good reason.,...are to clarify something that was not well understood....
16:45:54 <MikeRiley> s/are/or/
16:46:18 <Deewiant> yes, I agree as well, but I think it's just practical to improve on them while you only have 1 or 2 users...
16:46:30 <MikeRiley> i will agree to that....
16:46:40 <MikeRiley> doubt we ever will have more than 1 or 2 users ever tho!!!! eheheheheheehheeheheheheheh
16:46:50 <Deewiant> probably ;-)
16:47:59 <MikeRiley> when I wrote Rc/Funge-98,,,never actually expected anybody to do anything with it besides me!!! !eheheheeheheh
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16:49:10 <AnMaster> hm
16:49:24 <MikeRiley> was really surprised when others based there mini-funge off of my concept....and even more surprised when others implemented some of my fingerprints....
16:49:34 <AnMaster> well maybe I'll add this then, however in what specific format is the return vector pushed in relative addressing?
16:49:42 <AnMaster> shouldn't return vector still be absolute
16:49:46 <AnMaster> in case the offset changes
16:49:59 <MikeRiley> return vector i think should be absolute....
16:50:05 <Deewiant> hmm
16:50:21 <MikeRiley> since it should return the IP to where the C was done from...
16:50:27 <Deewiant> okay, so the flag only toggles what J and C pop?
16:50:32 <MikeRiley> yes....
16:50:36 <AnMaster> yeah
16:50:38 <Deewiant> yeah, that'd work
16:50:40 <AnMaster> makes sense
16:50:49 <MikeRiley> will add that to the docs....
16:51:28 <AnMaster> also it is rather painful to add new instructions to a fingerprint in cfunge compared with the initial creation of one
16:51:33 <AnMaster> so that is another reason I dislike this
16:51:46 <Deewiant> so change your system :-P
16:52:15 <MikeRiley> easy to modify fingerprints in my code...
16:54:53 <MikeRiley> took me all of 5 minutes to add those two new instrutions to SUBR...
16:54:55 <fizzie> I have a feeling it was I who "specified" SCKE, and it was pretty much for a single program I was writing at the time, and by no means meant to be a "real specification".
16:55:18 <MikeRiley> i like the enhancemens that SCKE added....
16:55:40 <AnMaster> well where are the docs
16:55:51 <MikeRiley> i have seen the docs somewhere for that....
16:56:02 <AnMaster> for new SUBR I mean........
16:56:42 <AnMaster> also the flag is global right?
16:56:50 <AnMaster> if it is per-ip I'm just going to drop SUBR
16:56:59 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, Deewiant ^
16:57:04 <Deewiant> then drop it
16:57:08 <MikeRiley> oh....for SUBR,,,right here on my hard drive!!! eheheheheheheeheh
16:57:12 <MikeRiley> hold on...will post them...
16:57:16 <AnMaster> thanks I will drop it then
16:57:17 <Deewiant> global makes it somewhat pointless
16:57:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, per-ip makes it feral
16:57:33 <MikeRiley> it is per-ip.....
16:57:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what the hell does feral vs. tame matter
16:58:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that I have to add another field to the ip struct in core for just a single fingerprint
16:58:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and, what the hell does that matter
16:58:26 <AnMaster> and code to copy it around
16:58:30 <MikeRiley> documenation is now posted
16:58:34 <AnMaster> fingerprints should be self contained if you see what I mean
16:58:50 <Deewiant> err? code to copy it around?
16:58:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for t and such
16:59:05 <AnMaster> and to set initial value
16:59:07 <MikeRiley> then you should not have implemented MODE right???? since that is ferel....
16:59:08 <Deewiant> surely you don't copy field by field...
16:59:09 <AnMaster> and so on and so on
16:59:11 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: he didn't
16:59:15 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I don't have MODE
16:59:15 <MikeRiley> oh...ok,,,,
16:59:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you should be using memcpy anyway so that's that, and as for initial value is adding "mode = 0" so hard?
16:59:52 <fizzie> SCKE is documented in the GLfunge distribution, doc/ext_SOCK.txt, but GLfunge pretty much died when I got bored and started to do other stuff. The sources are also pretty horrible; it was written eight years ago.
16:59:54 <Deewiant> seriously, it's a two line change
17:00:10 <Deewiant> I understand that tameness is nice
17:00:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, memcpy doesn't make much sense as you shouldn't copy all values
17:00:18 <Deewiant> but I honestly think it's a pointless concept
17:00:19 <MikeRiley> for Rc/Funge-98,,,,the changes were really simple....
17:00:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: memcpying 20 values is probably faster than setting 5 manually
17:00:42 <MikeRiley> yeah,,,i think that is where i saw the docs on SCKE....
17:00:58 <MikeRiley> i just copy one ip structure to another and change what is needed on the copied ip....
17:01:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and? I'm not speed crazy
17:01:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and, it makes more sense to do a copy anyway
17:01:32 <Deewiant> since it /is/ a copy
17:01:50 <Deewiant> "t causes the current IP to be duplicated" is what the spec says IIRC
17:02:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well then CCBI breaks by not also copying loaded fingerprints
17:02:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that's a bug that was fixed long agy
17:02:33 <Deewiant> er
17:02:34 <Deewiant> ago
17:02:56 <AnMaster> wasn't it an UNDEF?
17:03:18 <MikeRiley> copying of fingerprints i think is undef.....Rc/Funge-98 copies them tho...
17:03:22 <Deewiant> it's not explicitly said so I guess it belongs in mycology_opinionated :-P
17:03:26 <AnMaster> cfunge copies them
17:03:46 <AnMaster> and there falls your "just memcpy"
17:03:47 <MikeRiley> i figured,,,makes a copy of the ip covered everything about an ip...
17:03:55 <AnMaster> because they are pointers to stack structs
17:04:06 <AnMaster> with pointers to the array of function pointers in them
17:04:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so you do a memcpy followed by a deep copy.
17:04:18 <Deewiant> of the fields which required it
17:05:29 <AnMaster> anyway I will not update fingerprints to add or change commands in the future unless it was a misinterpretation of the original version I read of the docs for said fingerprint
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17:06:02 <AnMaster> or the fingerprint is very very new so there are docs bugs
17:06:06 <AnMaster> but SUBR is hardly new
17:06:09 <MikeRiley> trouble is,,,when it comes to my fingerprints,,,and the poor documentation,,,misinterpretation is probable!!!! eheheheheheehheeh
17:06:36 <AnMaster> and I will seriously consider simply dropping those fingerprints instead
17:06:48 <MikeRiley> which is certainly an option...
17:06:56 <AnMaster> this time I won't drop SUBR, but really, changes should not be made to existing fingerprints
17:07:12 <MikeRiley> i usually try to avoid changing them,,,,,but this one made sense...
17:07:19 <MikeRiley> just like adding D to FILE made sense....
17:07:28 <Deewiant> yeah, D was an obvious omission
17:07:34 <MikeRiley> yes it was...
17:07:39 <Deewiant> I was really surprised that it wasn't there when I read the docs :-P
17:07:47 <AnMaster> sure right, a lot of changes make sense, I agree with that. the issue is, you will end up with different versions of the fingerprints
17:07:51 <MikeRiley> yeah,,,,,oversight on my part...
17:07:54 <AnMaster> and programs depending on old behaviour
17:08:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: when I finish my 0 fingerprint I'll make sure it has 26 instructions which are well documented :-)
17:08:06 <AnMaster> say something that depended on D from something else when loading FILE after
17:08:11 <AnMaster> now such a program would be broken
17:08:13 <MikeRiley> programs depending on old behaviour would not be affected by the changes to SUBR....
17:08:20 <MikeRiley> ok,,,see your point....
17:08:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: in practice since Mycology is approximately the only one that uses these, it doesn't really matter for now :-)
17:08:56 <MikeRiley> but how many such programs really exist????
17:09:03 <AnMaster> That is why you shouldn't update fingerprints, any change is likely to break existing programs, and that is why changing very very new ones, like FING to clarify some points is ok, because the only thing likely to have been written so far is a test program for it
17:09:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do you know that?
17:09:26 <MikeRiley> well...what about misintrpretations of old fingerprints????
17:09:34 <AnMaster> I wrote a test program for FILE too
17:09:43 <AnMaster> to check some stuff with multiple files open at once
17:09:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: do you really think somebody is writing closed-source Befunge somewhere and is all pissed that we're messing with fingerprints? :-P
17:10:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not likely indeed, but that is not the question here
17:10:19 <AnMaster> the issue is breaking open source app as well
17:10:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I understand the principle
17:10:27 <AnMaster> and fixing befunge programs is *painful*
17:10:28 <Deewiant> but the fact is, there is no such app
17:10:33 <AnMaster> if there is no space
17:10:35 <MikeRiley> painful to say the least!!!!
17:10:48 <Deewiant> I'm getting quite used to it, it's not so bad :-P
17:10:52 <Deewiant> only TRDS was/is a pain
17:10:57 <MikeRiley> i have done plenty of it as well....
17:11:00 <AnMaster> will be?
17:11:08 <AnMaster> time travel remember :P
17:11:10 <Deewiant> if so, maybe I'll drop it as well ;-P
17:11:31 <AnMaster> duh... it was a joke about time travel, though I think it may be a pain anyway
17:11:41 <MikeRiley> was not a joke really....
17:12:10 <Deewiant> Whether a TRDS bug travels from the past to the future or just normally appears in the future it's still a pain
17:12:12 <MikeRiley> i actually saw somewhere sombody eluding to time-travelling IPs and i thought it was an interesting concept....
17:12:15 <MikeRiley> so i tried it....
17:12:39 <Deewiant> yes, I think I saw such a mention when browsing old esolang mailing list archives
17:12:44 <MikeRiley> but admitately,,,TRDS does produce an awful lot of undef behaviour....
17:13:19 <MikeRiley> my original TRDS code worked with my tests....but not mycology's....
17:13:26 <AnMaster> what about a backtracking extension, Prolog for befunge if you see what I mean
17:13:35 <AnMaster> not that I would implement it I admit
17:13:38 <Deewiant> hmm
17:14:01 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, are those test public?
17:14:06 <AnMaster> and does CCBI work on them?
17:14:21 <Deewiant> the TRDS test ain't
17:14:27 <MikeRiley> no,,,they were not....did not expect anybody else to be insane enough to try and implement TRDS!!!! eheheheheheeheh
17:14:32 * AnMaster prepares a nice week for debugging for Deewiant and MikeRiley
17:14:43 <AnMaster> due to you changing SUBR :P
17:14:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: since he hasn't fixed his to work with Mycology why should I fix mine to work with his tests ;-)
17:15:20 <AnMaster> well maybe having a common interpretation of TRDS would be nice?
17:15:41 <Deewiant> if only anybody knew what it should be
17:16:12 <MikeRiley> acutally i have been working on changing TRDS to pass mycology tests....
17:16:36 <MikeRiley> but i also have a document better describing what TRDS should be capable of doing....
17:16:49 <Deewiant> I have a page-long comment in my TRDS impl which documents a workaround for something of which I'm not at all sure whether it always works or not
17:17:37 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, feel free to change it! I don't implement it, and I will love Deewiant having to change it
17:17:40 <AnMaster> :P
17:17:52 <MikeRiley> eheheheheheeh
17:18:07 <Deewiant> at least I can rip off RC/Funge-98's code now
17:18:13 <Deewiant> that was impossible before since it didn't work at all :-P
17:18:34 <MikeRiley> well,,,it did work,,,,but worked with my intentions...and yours were different....
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17:18:43 <MikeRiley> but my original work on it was primitive....
17:18:45 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: it failed my very first test
17:19:02 <Deewiant> which was, when traveling back in time, are the contents of funge-space what they were at that time
17:19:17 <MikeRiley> i had a series of test programs i used to write it originally,,,and they all worked,,,you and I just had different assumptions....
17:19:29 <MikeRiley> that was a bug actually!!!!
17:19:33 <MikeRiley> and has been fixed....
17:19:33 <Deewiant> :-D
17:19:41 <MikeRiley> i had not changed funge-space when i was doing my tests...
17:19:42 <Deewiant> "actually" :-D
17:19:54 <MikeRiley> so never caught that one...
17:19:56 <Deewiant> but yes, that was a bit of a letdown :-P
17:20:08 <Deewiant> it was the very first thing that I thought of when thinking how the hell I should test TRDS
17:20:09 <MikeRiley> i was only interested that the IP went backwards and other IPs worked correctly...
17:20:28 <MikeRiley> very sensible actually...i just did not think of testing that....
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17:21:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is mycology updated for new SUBR yet?
17:21:21 <Deewiant> no, not yet.
17:21:31 <AnMaster> when will it be then?
17:21:42 <Deewiant> when it will be.
17:21:56 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, btw do you have a test suite for your regex fingerprint?
17:22:03 <tusho> http://www.imaginaryrobots.net/projects/funge/ who maintains this page
17:22:05 <MikeRiley> yes,,,on my site i think...
17:22:09 <tusho> it has a link to the new rc/funge site...
17:22:17 <Deewiant> tusho: jesse van herk
17:22:22 <tusho> who
17:22:22 <Deewiant> I mailed him about it last night
17:22:23 <tusho> :D
17:22:24 <MikeRiley> does it have the right one???
17:22:33 <Deewiant> I told him to link to rcfunge98.com
17:22:40 <MikeRiley> that is the correct one...
17:22:44 <Deewiant> and told him to update his JSTR spec
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17:22:56 <Deewiant> and he did, surprisingly quickly too :-P
17:23:03 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, google returns the elf-emulation one when you google rc/funge
17:23:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: google isn't always right
17:23:29 <MikeRiley> that is because it was there before i registered the rcfunge98.com
17:23:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: can you find zlib's home page using google?
17:23:46 <tusho> Deewiant: wow you're right you can't
17:23:47 <MikeRiley> anmaster,,,just checked,,,the REXP test is on my site....
17:23:47 <tusho> why not?
17:23:53 <Deewiant> tusho: I don't know
17:24:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes was on second page here
17:24:19 <AnMaster> I agree it wasn't at the top
17:24:29 <Deewiant> how many results per page?
17:24:35 <AnMaster> 10
17:24:46 <Deewiant> it's not in the first 3 pages for me, and I have 30 results per page
17:25:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well blame localised google?
17:25:08 <Deewiant> googling just "zlib" that is
17:25:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: do you use localized google?
17:25:31 <Deewiant> I'll try google.se
17:25:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nop but google.com still maps to servers in Sweden
17:25:55 <AnMaster> geodns I guess
17:25:55 <Deewiant> google.se doesn't find it either
17:26:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I don't use the .se version...
17:26:09 <AnMaster> as I said above
17:26:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: do you use a google account when you search?
17:26:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I may be logged in on gmail still
17:26:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: neither do I, I use google.com/ncr
17:26:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that might matter then
17:26:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I do use customisegoogle plugin to remove sponsored links as well
17:26:45 <AnMaster> and such
17:26:48 <Deewiant> as do I
17:28:19 <Deewiant> even googling for "Welcome to the zlib home page" I don't get the actual home page
17:28:25 <AnMaster> odd
17:28:35 <Deewiant> only 9 results, and none of them are www.zlib.net
17:28:50 <AnMaster> also I got a few other things on that google account, like the "webmasters tool" thingy and a few other things
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17:33:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, cfunge is updated for new SUBR
17:34:11 <AnMaster> just waiting for updated mycology to test both absolute and relative addressing
17:35:16 <AnMaster> also is INDV relative or absolute?
17:35:22 <MikeRiley> relative
17:35:29 <AnMaster> who make INDV btw?
17:35:33 <MikeRiley> me
17:36:51 <MikeRiley> manual states (just above the fingerprint specifications) that unless noted, all vectors accessing funge-space utilize the storage offset...
17:37:25 <AnMaster> how comes mycology doesn't fail then, my INDV use absolute addressing
17:37:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
17:37:42 <AnMaster> or at least used until I started changing it a few minutes ago
17:37:43 <MikeRiley> does he test relative addressing in INDV???
17:37:50 <AnMaster> well I assume he does
17:37:58 <MikeRiley> INDV passes in Rc/Funge
17:37:58 <AnMaster> he said he was using { for all tests now iirc
17:38:02 <Deewiant> no, I do not
17:38:07 <Deewiant> for many, not all
17:38:09 <MikeRiley> i think.....
17:38:19 <Deewiant> testing INDV with { is something I intend to do though
17:38:34 <MikeRiley> good test to add...
17:39:12 <AnMaster> how should W write then?
17:39:27 <AnMaster> is the vector it write just "whatever was on stack, with no changes"?
17:39:36 <AnMaster> I assume it is
17:40:07 <MikeRiley> historical note on INDV...when i originally created it, i called in PNTR,,,Chris did not think it was descriptive enough for what the fingerprint did and suggested changing it to INDV....
17:40:27 <AnMaster> well INDV change was easy for me, I had a function called GetSecondVector(), I just need it to return a adjusted absolute vector instead
17:40:33 <AnMaster> should use relative now I think
17:40:38 <MikeRiley> vector on the stack is not modified,,,only when funge-space is accessed is the storage offset applied...
17:41:48 <MikeRiley> this includes accessing funge-space to get the pointer vector....
17:44:26 <AnMaster> the second vector, should it be adjusted in V?
17:45:11 <MikeRiley> the pointer vector is adjusted,,,the final retrieved vector is not....
17:45:36 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/rnGt1I29.html
17:45:39 <AnMaster> is that correct?
17:45:46 <MikeRiley> let me look
17:46:37 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, look at G for example
17:46:44 <AnMaster> it may need another level of redirection
17:46:45 <AnMaster> not sure
17:47:00 <MikeRiley> not sure of your functions....but G should work like this:
17:47:32 <MikeRiley> get vector off of stack,,,,apply storage offset,,,,retrieve vector from funge-space,,,,apply storage offset,,,,retrieve vector from funge-space to stack,,,,,do not modify this last read vector...
17:47:56 <AnMaster> I see, so storage offset for the second vector too
17:48:24 <MikeRiley> yes....
17:49:03 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, so it should really look like http://rafb.net/p/37Xfxa33.html then?
17:50:14 <MikeRiley> looking
17:50:46 <MikeRiley> that looks right....
17:51:13 <AnMaster> I'm still not sure about V though
17:51:19 <AnMaster> fungeVector v = GetSecondVector(ip);
17:51:19 <AnMaster> StackPushVector(ip->stack,
17:51:19 <AnMaster> VectorCreateRef(
17:51:19 <AnMaster> FungeSpaceGet(&v),
17:51:19 <AnMaster> FungeSpaceGet(VectorCreateRef(v.x+1, v.y))
17:51:19 <AnMaster> )
17:51:21 <AnMaster> );
17:51:34 <MikeRiley> what do you not understand about v???
17:51:58 <AnMaster> should the last one have storage offset applied hm...
17:52:16 <MikeRiley> the final one retrieved from funge-space to the stack is not modified...
17:52:31 <MikeRiley> the pointer one is....
17:53:27 <MikeRiley> in all funcitons of INDV,,,,a vector is popped off the stack and the storage offset is applied,,,,that points to a vector in memory which is retrieved and the storage offset applied,,,,whatever data that points to is read as is....
17:53:30 <MikeRiley> or written as is...
17:53:31 <AnMaster> well, we will see if it is correct once Deewiant updates mycology
17:53:40 <AnMaster> err
17:53:45 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, can't be for W really
17:53:51 <MikeRiley> assuming he interprets INDV the same way that i do...
17:53:57 <AnMaster> one of the vectors is written to the funge space
17:54:06 <MikeRiley> the written vector is NOT modified...
17:54:08 <AnMaster> that written vector should not have storage offset applied
17:54:16 <MikeRiley> just like the final read vector is not modified...
17:54:34 <MikeRiley> the final data read or written is not modified by the storage offset...
17:54:49 <MikeRiley> only the 2 pointer vectors are...
17:59:35 <MikeRiley> i take it you do not have unefunge or trefunge modes??? at least your functions appear to not support those modes....
18:05:03 <AnMaster> newsize += newsize % ALLOCCHUNKSIZE;
18:05:18 <AnMaster> that would round the value newsize upwards to whole ALLOCCHUNKSIZE blocks right?
18:05:25 <AnMaster> this code of mine is confusing me
18:05:29 <AnMaster> heh
18:05:51 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, and indeed I only do befunge
18:06:04 <MikeRiley> you want confusing code....look at mine!!!! eheheheheheheeh
18:06:16 <AnMaster> well my StackPreallocSpace() is confusing enough
18:06:24 <AnMaster> and it was buggy
18:06:49 <MikeRiley> my stack prealloc code was pretty straightforward....probably cannot read it now tho!!!! eheheheheheeheheh
18:06:59 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I use it to pre-allocate space when pushing strings on stack, mostly because of huge environment variables
18:07:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: if newsize is 10 and ALLOCCHUNKSIZE is 8, you get 10 + 10%8 so 12.
18:07:14 <MikeRiley> i had to do that with mycology!!!!!
18:07:20 <AnMaster> it actually helped make the HRTI test complete within reasonable time
18:07:23 <AnMaster> it didn't before
18:07:25 <MikeRiley> with it pushing 240,000 cells!!!!! yikes!!!!
18:07:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hum
18:07:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, should be 16
18:07:48 <AnMaster> so you mean:  newsize += ALLOCCHUNKSIZE - (newsize % ALLOCCHUNKSIZE);
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18:07:50 <AnMaster> or?
18:08:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: better, at least. :-P
18:08:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but not correct?
18:08:53 <Deewiant> not sure
18:08:55 <Deewiant> seems to work
18:09:03 <Deewiant> can't be bothered to think it through :-P
18:09:10 <AnMaster> also ALLOCCHUNKSIZE is 4096 btw
18:09:31 <fizzie> newsize = (newsize + ALLOCCHUNKSIZE - 1) % ALLOCCHUNKSIZE; would be more idiomatic, perhaps.
18:09:44 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, tip: set almost clean environment before, you want something like: env -i TERM="$TERM" PATH="$PATH" ../rcfunge mycology.b98
18:09:57 <Deewiant> fizzie: no, that wouldn't work.
18:10:07 <AnMaster> you need PATH for PERL test I think
18:10:22 <AnMaster> and TERM for the NCRS and TERM fingerprints
18:10:25 <AnMaster> wait that is a separate test
18:10:30 <Deewiant> fizzie: That way the newsize would always be in the range [0,ALLOCCHUNKSIZE) which is of course not a good thing. :-)
18:10:38 <fizzie> Yes, I noticed few seconds too late. :p
18:10:43 <MikeRiley> i have a growing stack now....so not really a problem with the environment...
18:10:56 <AnMaster> my old code was even worse
18:10:57 <AnMaster> newsize += (minfree % ALLOCCHUNKSIZE + 1) * ALLOCCHUNKSIZE;
18:11:06 <AnMaster> no way that rounds anything upwards
18:12:07 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well I need to pre-allocate in y, what I do is cache the size of the environment on the first time I run y
18:12:15 <AnMaster> then in the future I pre-allocate that much
18:12:20 <AnMaster> helps a lot
18:12:37 <MikeRiley> i just built code into my Push routine, when it runs out of stack space it allocates more....
18:12:42 <AnMaster> of course this may be wrong if the environment is changed with EVAR but it still helps somewhat
18:12:54 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, so does mine, however HRTI test was too slow that way
18:13:07 <MikeRiley> too slow???
18:13:09 <Deewiant> "too slow"? :-P
18:13:10 <AnMaster> so I do some pre-allocation to avoid a lot of realloc() calls
18:13:14 <Deewiant> define "too slow"
18:13:25 <AnMaster> as in I had to wait minutes for it to finish when I ran cfunge under valgrind
18:13:34 <MikeRiley> here is my result from HRTI:
18:13:36 <AnMaster> it was fine outside valgrind, but I need to be able to debug with valgrind
18:13:37 <MikeRiley> UNDEF: T after M pushed 23 and a second T, after ff*kyn, pushed 38963
18:13:37 <AnMaster> :P
18:14:05 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well I got a very large enviroment
18:14:07 <MikeRiley> debuggin on the other hand,,,,i can see where that makes sense...
18:14:12 <AnMaster> $ env | wc -c
18:14:12 <AnMaster> 5728
18:14:13 <MikeRiley> mine is not exactly small either...
18:14:14 <AnMaster> so that isn't fair
18:14:21 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, your is that large?
18:14:27 <MikeRiley> 3668 here...
18:14:34 <MikeRiley> a bit smaller....
18:15:06 <AnMaster> env -i TERM="xterm" ./cfunge -S mycology/mycology.b98
18:15:07 <AnMaster> UNDEF: T after M pushed 71 and a second T, after ff*kyn, pushed 361
18:15:08 <MikeRiley> still think there is a better way for HRTI than pushing all that stuff to the stack....
18:15:13 <AnMaster> for fair comparsion
18:15:20 <MikeRiley> or at least .... clear it out after each y!!!1 ehehehehehehe
18:15:25 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, um?
18:15:29 <AnMaster> what?
18:15:57 <AnMaster> my stack is an array, that I realloc() when I need to grow it
18:16:00 <AnMaster> I realloc in chunks
18:16:19 <AnMaster> now HRTI test was rather slow as you can imagine
18:16:24 <MikeRiley> i also realloc in chunks...
18:16:47 <AnMaster> so what I did was store how much space the environment variables used first time y was executed
18:17:15 <AnMaster> then I make sure to preallocate such a large chunk should the environment variables need to be pushed again
18:17:35 <AnMaster> this really helps in HRTI test
18:17:41 <MikeRiley> i see...
18:17:42 <AnMaster> for large environments like mine
18:18:03 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, otherwise I would have to temp disable HRTI to test some other fingerprint under valgrind
18:18:21 <AnMaster> oh btw I don't implement EVAR :P
18:18:44 <AnMaster> I do plan to
18:18:49 <AnMaster> just haven't got around to it yet
18:19:18 <MikeRiley> EVAR has its uses....
18:19:24 <AnMaster> sure I can see that
18:19:26 <MikeRiley> i implemented that one early on...
18:20:20 <MikeRiley> in fact,,,that may be pretty close to one of the first ones i impllemented....beyond the basic cat's eye ones...
18:20:46 <MikeRiley> then after that I went crazy and started defining fingerprints left and right!!! eheheheeheheheheheheheheheheh
18:21:41 <MikeRiley> ended up wanting the most advance funge/98 interpreter out there,,,,nevermind at the time Rc/Funge-98 was written,,,there were no other ones!!! eheheehheheheheheeh
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18:23:59 <AnMaster> hm
18:24:28 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, care to implement REXP in mini-funge? ;P
18:24:42 <AnMaster> I think it is possible, though rather painful
18:30:05 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, what is MVRS?
18:30:15 <AnMaster> there is a test for it but no docs...
18:30:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so feral that you don't want to know :-)
18:30:54 <Deewiant> hint: it's short for "multiverse"
18:31:00 <AnMaster> hm interesting
18:31:09 <AnMaster> sounds like something I like to know more about but not implement
18:31:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what does it do?
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18:31:25 <AnMaster> separate funge spaces under same interpreter?
18:31:50 <Deewiant> I gather that it's like concurrency but you can run in different files/environments which are independent of each other and can communicate only via the MVRS instructions
18:32:02 <AnMaster> interesting
18:32:02 <Deewiant> you could even have Befunge in one and Trefunge in another
18:32:08 <AnMaster> wow
18:32:13 <AnMaster> feral yeah
18:32:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you said "feral" was a useless term iirc?
18:32:28 <AnMaster> I disagree
18:32:28 <Deewiant> and that is what caused me to start doing a semi-full rewrite of CCBI :-)
18:32:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think making the distinction between feral and tame is pointless
18:32:45 * AnMaster points to TRDS and now this MVRS
18:32:49 <Deewiant> SUBR for instance is trivial to implement even though it is feral
18:33:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well yeah but there is a point to it
18:33:03 <Deewiant> I wouldn't put SUBR in the same class as TRDS and MVRS
18:33:11 <Deewiant> I understand the intent behind it
18:33:15 <AnMaster> you can't do ferral in mini-funge
18:33:19 <MikeRiley> you were not around when i said what MVRS is all about???
18:33:20 <Deewiant> but I think it's pointless compared to just saying "X is hard to implement"
18:33:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
18:33:29 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: that or he didn't read the logs
18:33:41 <MikeRiley> could be...
18:33:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: SUBR you probably could do in mini-funge since the ghost IP can store the mode?
18:33:56 <Deewiant> (I forget the exact limitations of mini-funge9
18:33:59 <Deewiant> s/9/)/
18:34:06 <MikeRiley> anmaster: basicly MVRS supports a new capability in Rc/Funge-98 V2 to support multiple universes (or VMs)...
18:34:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, could a third party just create a C/C++/D/whatever file using the existing API of the interpreter and drop it in (+ maybe something to tell it that this new file exist)
18:34:14 <AnMaster> then it is probably tame
18:34:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, I understand that
18:34:28 <AnMaster> or the interpreter already supports the needed things
18:34:45 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, oh, vitalisation in funge?!
18:34:50 <AnMaster> this sounds enterprisy!
18:34:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, not virtualisation :-P
18:35:04 <AnMaster> argh typo
18:35:06 <AnMaster> yeah
18:35:18 <MikeRiley> yep....each vm is distinct,,,one can be running befunge another can be running unefunge or trefunge...
18:35:19 <AnMaster> I meant virtualisation
18:35:29 <MikeRiley> one can be running funge/98 while another runges funge/93 or funge/108....
18:35:29 <AnMaster> but aspell didn't know it, so I just corrected it
18:35:33 <AnMaster> and thought that was right
18:35:52 <MikeRiley> data can be copied between universes using MVRS and IPs can travel to other universes using MVRS....
18:36:05 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, wow
18:36:13 <AnMaster> however your docs are missing for it
18:36:19 <MikeRiley> that is all working now in Rc/Funge V2...
18:36:22 <Deewiant> I gather it's a WIP still?
18:36:25 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, also how can befunge-93 support it?
18:36:29 <MikeRiley> that is because the docs for V2 have not been posted yet...
18:36:35 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, 93 have no fingerprints
18:36:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so the 93 can't communicate with the outside world
18:36:46 <MikeRiley> it cannot....but a funge/98 can access the universe of a funge/93....
18:36:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but that doesn't mean something else can't modify the 93
18:36:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it could using STDIO
18:36:55 <MikeRiley> correct...
18:36:58 <AnMaster> ah ok
18:37:18 <MikeRiley> the universes are done,,,,i am also replacing the mini-funge as well...
18:37:34 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, what about redirecting the STDIO of one VM for use with some pipe reading thingy in the other VMs?
18:37:35 <AnMaster> XD
18:37:35 <MikeRiley> the new dynamic fingerprint model will allow the full power of the Rc/Funge VM to be used for fingerprints...
18:37:44 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, and starting a VM in safe mode
18:37:46 <AnMaster> like cfunge can do
18:37:50 <MikeRiley> which means trefunge could be used in dynamic fingerprints, fingerprint overloads, etc....
18:38:03 <AnMaster> ie, block FILE, i, o, =, DIRF, and some other stuff
18:38:05 <MikeRiley> interesing idea for the pipes....may do something with that...
18:38:13 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, and the protected/safe mode?
18:38:21 <MikeRiley> i like that idea as well...
18:38:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster, MikeRiley: new Mycology up, has new SUBR and fixes a concurrency bug
18:38:50 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, actually cfunge also reduces the environment variables displayed in y to a "safe subset" in safe mode
18:38:53 <MikeRiley> if a universe is created through MVRS then there is a flags cell used to create the universe,,,otherwise the universes are created when staring Rc/Funge...
18:39:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what concurrency bug?
18:39:11 <MikeRiley> ok deewiant,,,will go and get it...
18:39:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what MikeRiley was running into: ;; results were off by one
18:39:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so now cfunge will be wrong again? I hope not
18:39:40 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: BTW I have an issue with your flags cell
18:39:43 <AnMaster> because I verified all that is correct in cfunge
18:40:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: probably not, it's off by one in that it thinks it took one less than it really did
18:40:01 <MikeRiley> ok,,,issue is???
18:40:10 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: it's very RC/Funge-98 specific
18:40:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, -1 ticks XD
18:40:16 <MikeRiley> why???
18:40:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: of course 0,0,1 instead of 0,1,2 :-)
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18:40:31 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: for instance that "official Y" bit
18:40:46 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: and possibly other stuff as well, I can't remember what exactly was there
18:40:53 <Deewiant> but that was most glaring
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18:41:28 <AnMaster> well no BAD
18:41:32 <MikeRiley> but then Rc/Funge-98 has an altered y function,,,as well as the spec....
18:41:34 <AnMaster> so that got to be ok
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18:41:38 <MikeRiley> new mycology runs good....
18:41:43 <asiekierka> hi
18:41:45 <AnMaster> perfect here
18:41:56 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: yes, exactly, but putting something like that in a fingerprint is a bad idea...
18:42:02 <MikeRiley> why???
18:42:09 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: or should I add flags for the various CCBI capabilities?? what about cfunge??
18:42:27 <AnMaster> what is it about?
18:42:31 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,let me put it this way,,,,is anybody besides me going to implement MVRS???
18:42:40 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: I probably will
18:42:42 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, maybe, it sounds like a cool thing
18:42:47 <MikeRiley> i could label that bit as being Rc/Funge-98 specific....
18:42:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: a feral one from you? O_o
18:42:54 <AnMaster> I don't think cfunge will have it
18:43:04 <AnMaster> but I have been thinking of writing another funge interpreter
18:43:07 <AnMaster> in another language
18:43:17 <Deewiant> erlang? :-)
18:43:28 <AnMaster> probably erlang or some object orientated language, like objc or smalltalk
18:43:50 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: what you /could/ do is say that bits above that are implementation-defined, but I still don't think that's that great an idea
18:43:57 <MikeRiley> and that the y functionaly is not a requiement to implement,,,and in my implementation, not specifying it will provide the spec y instead of mine....how about that???
18:43:59 <AnMaster> what bits exactly?
18:44:09 <asiekierka> Did anyone try to implement a befunge-93 interpreter in BF?
18:44:17 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: also, dimensions: you have 3 bits, what about 4-dimensional or higher? should just pop a cell which gives the dimensionality
18:44:34 <AnMaster> agreed
18:44:50 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: it just seems so out of place, that kind of flag
18:44:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also I have been thinking about a "dimensions on demand" system
18:44:55 <AnMaster> not sure how
18:45:01 <MikeRiley> seems reasonable....the spec for it is still in flux....so can make changes like that at this point...afterall...it is not published yet...
18:45:03 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: how about, "sub-universes inherit any implementation-specific settings from the parent"??
18:45:16 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: so you get to keep your Y setting as it was given on the command line
18:45:21 <MikeRiley> that is how mine works now actually...
18:45:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is <count>x,y,z,...
18:45:28 <MikeRiley> it inherits....
18:45:30 <AnMaster> or
18:45:39 <AnMaster> a command to change number of dimensions
18:45:45 <AnMaster> not sure which would be best
18:45:55 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: so why not just keep it at that (and remember to document it!)
18:45:59 <AnMaster> either way it wouldn't be compatible with real funge I think
18:46:01 <MikeRiley> i can do that....
18:46:03 <AnMaster> it would be a fungoid
18:46:26 <AnMaster> about "implementation-specific settings"
18:46:36 <AnMaster> that would prevent having safe modes for some VMs?
18:46:37 <AnMaster> or?
18:46:47 <MikeRiley> but still need to be able to override what is created in the new universe....since a universe can be created with a different language version or dimensionality...
18:47:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, how would you transfer such settings when creating a new universe
18:47:15 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: I'd say pop two cells, one for version and one for dimensions
18:47:20 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, for dimension: pop a cell n off the stack, then set the number of dimensions to n
18:47:22 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,,
18:47:26 <AnMaster> for version another cell
18:47:29 <Deewiant> a good idea for the implementation-specific settings would be nice
18:47:30 <MikeRiley> i can live with that....
18:47:35 <Deewiant> but I can't think of anything that would work well
18:47:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well cfunge couldn't do it
18:47:45 <AnMaster> you would need to make it a non-global setting
18:47:48 <Deewiant> or at least not without making all MVRS programs non-portable
18:48:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so why did you ask since you can't do it anyway? ;-P
18:48:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think for multiverse an object orientated language like C++ would be best
18:48:19 <AnMaster> or objc
18:48:25 <AnMaster> would be easiest that way anyway
18:48:33 <MikeRiley> probably so,,,,,Rc/Funge is implementing them in structures....
18:48:43 <MikeRiley> but i seriously thought about using c++....
18:48:51 <Deewiant> don't know about that but C is probably a bit of a pain to work with in cases like this, yes :-)
18:48:58 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, about these VMs is there any relation between number of ticks executed in each?
18:49:04 <AnMaster> or could you run them on different processors?
18:49:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, there is
18:49:11 <Deewiant> so no, you can't
18:49:14 <AnMaster> argh
18:49:18 <AnMaster> then I won't implement it
18:49:19 <MikeRiley> no relation,,,,they are to be considered time independent...
18:49:22 <AnMaster> ever
18:49:26 <Deewiant> hmm??
18:49:32 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: last time you said they aren't :-P
18:49:42 <AnMaster> well an implementation could make them have a relation if it wants then
18:49:49 <AnMaster> and not have it if it doesn't want it
18:49:54 <MikeRiley> they are not synced together,,,,but one universe runs after another one does...
18:49:58 <AnMaster> that sounds fine to me
18:50:02 <Deewiant> i.e. if universe B is created at tick 10 in A then 10 ticks later universe A is at tick 20, universe B is at tick 10
18:50:07 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: or what
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18:50:09 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, so you couldn't execute one on another CPU?
18:50:09 <MikeRiley> unless you have something like TRDS to change the time on one of them,,,,the ticks will probably all be the same...
18:50:10 <AnMaster> or so?
18:50:23 <MikeRiley> in theory you could run one on another cpu....but did not intend it that way...
18:50:24 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, think about all these dual core systems
18:50:27 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: is what I said above guaranteed, barring TRDS
18:50:54 <MikeRiley> a universes tick count starts from its creation....
18:51:05 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: so answer the question :-P
18:51:12 <MikeRiley> if created sometime after the initial start,,,then whatever universe created it will have a different tick count...
18:51:24 <AnMaster> question is: could you use multiple OS threads to implement it?
18:51:27 <Deewiant> yes... still doesn't answer my question
18:51:28 <AnMaster> or do you need to keep them in sync
18:51:40 <MikeRiley> no reason i can think of to keep them in sync....
18:51:52 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, all communication happen using messages or?
18:52:07 <MikeRiley> communications happen by copying funge-space from one to another...
18:52:08 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: well, inter-universe communication will be a bit of a pain if they aren't in sync
18:52:09 <AnMaster> if it is shared memory this is going to be painful
18:52:14 <AnMaster> ok that is bad
18:52:18 <AnMaster> I would prefer message passing
18:52:21 <AnMaster> make stuff a lot easier
18:52:25 <MikeRiley> or you could use the IPC fingerrprints....
18:52:28 <MikeRiley> or the file system....
18:52:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: heh, you learned about this only a week ago or? :-P
18:52:32 <MikeRiley> anything you like really....
18:52:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no I knew about message passing concurrency before
18:52:47 <AnMaster> I didn't know erlang though
18:52:52 <MikeRiley> for message passing,,,use the MSGQ fingerprint...
18:53:02 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: thing is, if they aren't in sync, it's quite possible that universe B runs its program to the end before A even gets the next instruction :-P
18:53:15 <MikeRiley> that is theoretically possible....
18:53:18 <MikeRiley> and allowed....
18:53:25 <Deewiant> that's a bit crap then
18:53:29 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, point is, if you copy or read remote funge space the remote funge space may have changed by the time you get the response back
18:53:33 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean
18:53:40 <MikeRiley> if syncing is required....then that has to be build into the programs running in the universes...
18:53:41 <Deewiant> I could just implement MVRS in such a way that it runs the child universe immediately always
18:54:30 <MikeRiley> then do not use copy functions for communication use MSGQ, SMPH and SMEM....
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18:54:42 <AnMaster> ok I think MVRS looks as badly defined as TRDS :P
18:54:43 <Deewiant> all of which are non-portable...
18:54:56 <MikeRiley> it is!!!!! that is why it is not posted yet!!!!
18:54:57 <AnMaster> hey
18:55:00 <AnMaster> you could do it anyway
18:55:07 <AnMaster> use a >< mutex at the start
18:55:08 <MikeRiley> why not portable??? any posix system should have those???
18:55:18 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: POSIX-only != portable
18:55:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: busy-waiting? no thanks
18:55:28 <AnMaster> then make the other VM  change funge space remotely, overwriting that mutex
18:55:29 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,can accept that actually...
18:55:48 <MikeRiley> would you prefer the universes be cycle-locked???
18:55:59 <Deewiant> I would, yes
18:56:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well no way I will implement it if it can't be OS level threads
18:56:03 <Deewiant> or maybe definable
18:56:07 <AnMaster> because that is the only reason it would be useful
18:56:10 <AnMaster> OS level threads
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18:56:16 <AnMaster> for dual core CPUs
18:56:17 <AnMaster> and such
18:56:25 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: how about a flag cell that can set this?
18:56:33 <AnMaster> yeargh
18:56:36 <MikeRiley> that is reasonable....
18:56:41 <Deewiant> 0 - not synced
18:56:58 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, where is the draft for this fingerprint
18:57:01 <Deewiant> any positive value n - synced, child universe runs at n* speed of parent
18:57:03 <AnMaster> I still haven't seen it's instructions
18:57:06 <MikeRiley> and then message passing,,,want to build it into MVRS and then let the interpreter designer come up with a message system instead of MSGQ???
18:57:14 <Deewiant> any negative value - synced, parent universe runs at n* speed of child
18:57:23 <Deewiant> er, (-n) of course
18:57:36 <AnMaster> hm...
18:57:47 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, yes
18:57:50 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: most certainly not build it into MVRS
18:57:55 <AnMaster> or maybe not
18:57:55 <AnMaster> well
18:58:04 <AnMaster> MSGQ wouldn't work for this
18:58:09 <MikeRiley> why not???
18:58:10 <Deewiant> making it another fingerprint would be fine, though
18:58:12 <AnMaster> what if you to implement it in java
18:58:13 <AnMaster> or such
18:58:22 <AnMaster> and use different threads in java talking to each other
18:58:22 <Deewiant> because MVRS isn't about communication, it's about multiple universes
18:58:29 <AnMaster> I don't think MSGQ will allow that?
18:58:38 <AnMaster> because it is all same process
18:58:54 <MikeRiley> if java can support MSGQ then i do not see why not,,,,but i doubt java has that ability actually...
18:59:04 <MikeRiley> you can use MSGQ in the same process....
18:59:08 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, yep, but it could talk between it's threads just fine
18:59:17 <AnMaster> but not POSIX style messages I think
18:59:36 <AnMaster> so clearly MSGQ is not a good solution to this
18:59:38 <MikeRiley> ok,,,then another fingerprint for portable messages is needed then??? so back to building a message handler inside the interpreter???
19:00:20 <Deewiant> sounds like we need a MSGS :-)
19:00:22 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well if I implemented this in erlang (non-synced multiverses would be easy there) using message passing I could use erlang's built in, excellent message passing concurrency
19:00:23 <AnMaster> :)
19:00:34 <MikeRiley> which would essentially provide what MSGQ does,,,but without the sysV IPC requirement...
19:00:48 <AnMaster> basically needs to allow:
19:00:59 <AnMaster> send {command, parameters}
19:01:11 <AnMaster> wait for answer (or not)
19:01:23 <Deewiant> send, recv, probe
19:01:27 <AnMaster> probe?
19:01:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what would probe do?
19:01:33 <Deewiant> non-blocking recv
19:01:37 <AnMaster> ah well
19:01:41 <Deewiant> or not really
19:01:44 <AnMaster> you want a recv with a 0 timeout instead
19:01:48 <Deewiant> rather, non-blocking check whether something is there
19:01:49 <AnMaster> that would be a better way to define it
19:01:57 <Deewiant> you might not want to recv it
19:02:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that would be impossible in erlang, you can push messages back once you got it
19:02:14 <AnMaster> so non-blocking recv would work
19:02:18 <AnMaster> poll wouldn't
19:02:22 <Deewiant> alright, then it's just send/recv
19:02:31 <Deewiant> and maybe something like broadcast
19:02:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, non-blocking recv is fine though
19:02:34 <Deewiant> (send to all)
19:02:38 <AnMaster> also fine
19:02:45 <Deewiant> hmm, what else
19:02:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about waiting for answer
19:03:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that's recv
19:03:12 <AnMaster> ie, block until a reply to the thing you just send arrives
19:03:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is a difference
19:03:21 <AnMaster> recv could pick up some other message
19:03:23 <Deewiant> send/recv/non-blocking recv/broadcast
19:03:25 <AnMaster> instead of the reply
19:03:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: of course recv should take a parameter "message type"
19:03:47 <AnMaster> and leave any other messages in the mailbox
19:03:54 <AnMaster> or whatever you would call it
19:03:54 <AnMaster> queue
19:03:58 <AnMaster> if you wish
19:04:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not only message type, but also sender?
19:04:36 <Deewiant> yep
19:04:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sounds good to me
19:04:52 <AnMaster> what is the format for sender
19:05:03 <Deewiant> IP ID
19:05:20 <AnMaster> err between subverses?
19:05:23 <Deewiant> for MVRS, not quite sufficient
19:05:24 <AnMaster> or whatever you call them
19:05:25 <AnMaster> hm
19:05:28 <MikeRiley> started definition on MSGS,,,,will send you guys a copy once i have a preliminary version written...
19:05:30 <AnMaster> <0.30.0>
19:05:34 <AnMaster> what about a string like that XD
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19:05:43 <AnMaster> (just kidding, that is internal erlang PIDs)
19:07:21 <MikeRiley> AnMaster: i just emailed you the current working copy of the MVRS specs....
19:07:32 <AnMaster> thanks
19:07:36 <MikeRiley> most welcome...
19:08:09 <MikeRiley> note: this is before modifying it for some of the stuff we have been discussing here...
19:08:26 <AnMaster> (fire@phoenix.lan)3> rpc:call('ice@tux.lan', erlang, spawn, [net_adm, ping, ['fire@phoenix.lan']]).
19:08:26 <AnMaster> <5768.51.0>
19:08:34 <AnMaster> just as an example of distributed erlang ;P
19:08:56 <AnMaster> the second line was a remote PID
19:09:26 <AnMaster> G (0gnirts Vp Vd)       - Go to another universe
19:09:30 <AnMaster> what exactly does that do
19:09:38 <AnMaster> move the IP? how?
19:09:47 <AnMaster> and J?
19:09:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: one way to do message sender would be to have the number of communicating processes preset
19:10:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh why?
19:10:02 <Deewiant> they all have to report in to some "init" call
19:10:08 <Deewiant> and then they just all get a unique number
19:10:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do you mean
19:10:14 <AnMaster> err?
19:10:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, assigning unique IDs wouldn't be an issue really
19:10:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why not
19:10:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: remember, this isn't for MVRS
19:10:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: this is supposed to be generic
19:10:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you have the resolver server to track them
19:11:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so how would that work in funge
19:11:18 <AnMaster> so each time a new IP/universe/whatever wants to register itself it registers with that db
19:11:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wouldn't that be implementation level?
19:11:37 <AnMaster> or what do you mean?
19:11:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I'm just trying to see how/whether this can work at all :-)
19:11:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, shouldn't it be per-ip?
19:11:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: the sender ID? certainly yes
19:12:01 <Deewiant> but okay
19:12:03 <AnMaster> err
19:12:04 <AnMaster> what?
19:12:04 <Deewiant> so they register to the DB
19:12:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that is up to the implementation to handle
19:12:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I guess we're talking about two different things :-P
19:12:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think so too
19:12:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what did you mean by "that be implementation level"
19:12:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what are you talking about?
19:12:35 <Deewiant> heh
19:12:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, registering new IPs/multiverses/whatever with the resolver of the implementation
19:13:08 <MikeRiley> can do it similar to sysV and use keys for the message queues,,,,the 2 ips that want to communicate use their own key...
19:13:18 <AnMaster> to be able to resolve it to a real thread
19:13:19 <AnMaster> or whatever
19:13:30 <AnMaster> so it knows what OS level thread to send the message to
19:13:32 <AnMaster> right?
19:13:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or what do you mean?
19:13:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so what I'd like to know is when you have two IPs A and B, what sender ID should B push to receive a message from A, and what recipient id should A push
19:14:12 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, nah key doesn't work well for what I plan
19:14:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess IP id
19:14:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and that doesn't work for MVRS :-P
19:14:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for MVRS it gets more complex
19:14:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I stated one possibility which would work even with MVRS
19:14:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so it would use something else, ie, negative values?
19:15:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what if you want to differentiate between time-travelling and non-travelling IPs in TRDS
19:15:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok, so positive values are the local mappings, local IPs
19:15:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: point being, there are too many possibilities
19:15:36 <AnMaster> negative values are global mappings
19:15:41 <AnMaster> which MVRS would return somehow
19:15:46 <Deewiant> yeah, "somehow"
19:15:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: this shouldn't be tied to MVRS
19:16:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well MVRS could extend the existing fingerprint
19:16:12 <AnMaster> ie, hook into it's framework
19:16:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: why not just make it work for all cases by default
19:16:15 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean
19:16:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm against limited set of threads to communicate
19:16:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: okay, hmm, that got me an idea actually
19:16:38 <AnMaster> it would make it much harder
19:17:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: an instruction that pushes a guaranteed but implementation-dependent unique ID for this IP
19:17:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it can be shared via funge-space initially
19:17:17 <MikeRiley> that is possible if each vm has its own unique id as well....
19:17:29 <MikeRiley> then the id for an IP is a combination of its local id and the universe id....
19:17:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so reserve some value, maybe -1 or whatever as "external communication", then have extra arguments after that tells what sort of extensions (ie MVRS) and data for that
19:17:35 <AnMaster> could that work?
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19:17:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and that could work too
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19:18:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think that's again just a workaround for a system that isn't generic in itself :-P
19:18:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I prefer your way then
19:18:19 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: an instruction that pushes a guaranteed but implementation-dependent unique ID for this IP
19:18:19 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: it can be shared via funge-space initially
19:18:21 <MikeRiley> got to run for a bit,,,,back in a while....
19:18:28 <AnMaster> should work pretty well
19:18:40 <AnMaster> obviously MVRS will need to expose some function to get this ID in another way
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19:19:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but it's invisible from within the funges, all you know is that the instruction gives a unique ID
19:19:06 <Deewiant> which is why it's good
19:19:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm ok that could work too
19:19:32 <AnMaster> I would probably implement MSGS if it is heading where I think it is
19:19:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: this would even be tame since the list is of course global :-)
19:19:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it would need to have the message queue locally
19:20:06 <AnMaster> but apart from that yeah
19:20:10 <Deewiant> true, the fingerprint as a whole isn't tame
19:20:13 <AnMaster> not fully tame though
19:20:48 <AnMaster> what really excites me is the possibility of "true" concurrency in funge
19:21:11 <AnMaster> of course that bit won't happen in cfunge, but may happen in some future funge I write
19:21:18 <Deewiant> so hmm, recv/send/irecv/bcast/get_id
19:21:27 <AnMaster> irecv?
19:21:39 <Deewiant> ah, sorry, MPI function names :-P
19:21:44 <Deewiant> immediate recv i.e. non-blocking
19:21:53 <AnMaster> ah
19:22:44 <AnMaster> parameters for *recv would need to be: <optional sender id><optional message type>, if either is 0 then it means "all"
19:22:47 <AnMaster> otherwise filter
19:22:51 <AnMaster> or something like that
19:22:58 <Deewiant> yes, something like that
19:23:09 <Deewiant> I was thinking of some way of defining groups
19:23:16 <AnMaster> yep would make sense too
19:23:36 <AnMaster> for send you want <target><message type><parameters>
19:23:39 <Deewiant> but I can't think of a working way
19:23:43 <AnMaster> none of the first two can be 0
19:23:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, let a process register itself to a named group if it wants
19:24:03 <AnMaster> something like join(stringname)
19:24:11 <AnMaster> and leave(string name)
19:24:12 <Deewiant> hmm
19:24:16 <AnMaster> err add the space in the first
19:24:19 <Deewiant> does that work, I wonder
19:24:33 <Deewiant> I guess it does
19:24:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well sure if you add some way to make the id a string
19:24:45 <AnMaster> means another reserved ID though
19:24:49 <AnMaster> say, -1 or something
19:25:09 <Deewiant> preferably positive values, they're easier to push (1 vs 01-)
19:25:12 <AnMaster> if -1 is the id in *recv or send then read a 0"gnirts" with group name
19:25:39 <Deewiant> but yeah, I suppose
19:25:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that is hard, first ip for me is 0 or 1 iirc, and starting at 2 just feels so illogical
19:25:49 <AnMaster> starting at 1 would make sense to me
19:25:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: these IDs aren't supposed to be IP IDs
19:25:57 <AnMaster> ah true
19:26:00 <Deewiant> they're supposed to be unique and implementation defined
19:26:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but they could be if the implementation doesn't do multiverse
19:26:17 <Deewiant> doesn't matter what they are, you can start at INT_MAX if you want :-P
19:26:20 <AnMaster> that would be the easy way to do it
19:26:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so push(id + 2)
19:26:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok sure
19:26:32 <Deewiant> that should definitely not be a problem :-P
19:26:38 <AnMaster> true
19:26:40 <Deewiant> easy for users > easy for implementers
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19:26:48 <AnMaster> yeah
19:26:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, brb food
19:26:58 <Deewiant> funktio: did you implement concurrency, btw?
19:27:05 <funktio> Deewiant: yup
19:27:20 <Deewiant> funktio: there were some bugs in that in Mycology, you might want to get the latest version
19:27:42 <Deewiant> since if you got all GOOD before I think there's a bug in your interpreter :-)
19:28:21 <fizzie> Oh, btw, how does this FING work exactly? Am I supposed to do this remapping like [load FING] [load FOO] [FING commands related to FOO] [load BAR] [fing commands related to BAR] ... [unload FING]?
19:29:09 <funktio> very possible, I looked at Mycology's output more than the spec :)
19:29:10 <Deewiant> you mean http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge_manual.html#FING ? yes, that sounds like a reasonable sequence
19:30:36 <Deewiant> you don't have to unload FING of course
19:32:42 <fizzie> I just need to remap S and C in STRN (currently to Z and Q) so that I can still access them when I load SOCK on it; and drop A and L in SOCK because I don't use them but I use the corresponding STRN instructions. I'm hoping something like this will work (with suitable error handling added): "GNIF"4( "NRTS"4($$ 'S'ZX 'C'QX "KCOS"4($$ 'AY 'LY )
19:33:19 <Deewiant> that won't work
19:33:37 <Deewiant> the ) will unload your new Z and Q
19:33:40 <Deewiant> err
19:33:41 <Deewiant> just your Z
19:33:46 <Deewiant> since FING contains XYZ
19:33:50 <funktio> Deewiant: no BADs
19:34:05 <fizzie> Ah, right. Do I want to push it with FING's Z, then?
19:34:10 <Deewiant> funktio: there must be a really odd bug then ;-)
19:34:44 <Deewiant> fizzie: yeah, I guess you could duplicate it with 'Z:Z before hitting the )
19:35:08 <Deewiant> hmm, just now realized that I've been talking to two different people :-P
19:36:29 <AnMaster> who is funktio?
19:36:36 <AnMaster> what funge interpreter did he do???
19:36:50 <Deewiant> something in Haskell, don't know if he's published it
19:37:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for fing, well Mike sucks at writing docs
19:37:06 <AnMaster> but I implemented it
19:37:13 <AnMaster> so I can probably answer your questions
19:37:17 <Deewiant> I think FING is really simple actually :-P
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19:37:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it is if you know the UNDEFs ;P
19:37:35 <AnMaster> you know Mike's docs
19:37:56 <fizzie> I did peek at the RC-Funge 98 implementation to figure out what the Z actually does.
19:38:22 <AnMaster> funktio, hm got a link that that interpreter of yours?
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19:39:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, it copies the semantic loaded at one place to the top of another
19:39:21 <Deewiant> what else would it do? :-)
19:39:42 <AnMaster> if the source semantic stack is empty then a reflect semantic is pushed on the target stack
19:39:45 <AnMaster> that is a twist
19:40:04 <AnMaster> it seems documented now though
19:40:15 <Deewiant> "Z pull push"? :-P
19:40:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm?
19:40:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that's what it says
19:40:30 <fizzie> I guess it should be "will".
19:40:37 <Deewiant> Yes, I guess. :-)
19:40:39 <AnMaster> oh yes
19:40:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tell that to Mike if I leave before he gets back will you?
19:41:08 <Deewiant> if I remember
19:41:11 <AnMaster> hah ok
19:41:44 <AnMaster> of course I don't do SOCK yet
19:41:51 <AnMaster> and probably won't before next release
19:42:02 <AnMaster> I want to get things kind of stable again after all recent changes
19:42:22 <AnMaster> and SOCK is one that could be a bit hard to implement
19:43:35 <Deewiant> not really
19:44:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, depends, FILE and PERL were both kind of hard IMO
19:44:40 <AnMaster> I suspect the same is true for SOCK
19:44:53 <Deewiant> yeah, it's similar to FILE
19:45:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well FILE is a lot easier in D I think I saw your code, 1) throw/catch 2) high level abstraction for file handling
19:46:03 <AnMaster> s/think/think,/
19:47:08 <fizzie> Hee, "supported" sounds funny when it's reversed.
19:47:10 <fizzie> ^rev supported
19:47:10 <fungot> detroppus
19:47:16 <Deewiant> 2) actually I used the C API as specified
19:47:20 <fizzie> Detroppus. Heh.
19:47:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm ok
19:47:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but you can do "append to end of string" much easier
19:47:42 <AnMaster> I need to do buffer handling
19:47:49 <AnMaster> sure I got a string buffer library now
19:47:53 <AnMaster> but I didn't back then
19:50:31 <AnMaster> hm the fastest way to shutdown a large cluster of erlang nodes is
19:50:33 <AnMaster> rpc:eval_everywhere(init, stop, []).
19:50:34 <AnMaster> I think
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19:58:31 <fizzie> Oh, RC/Funge-98 needs a Makefile "-DSCKE" addition, otherwise it won't have SCKE.
19:58:47 <AnMaster> interesting
19:59:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, what does it do with those defines?
19:59:10 <AnMaster> I mean how does it work
20:00:19 <AnMaster> hm if what I see is correct (my rc/funge copy is a bit dated) then the cfunge way is much more elegant :)
20:00:33 <fizzie> In ext.c there's a huge "... else if (FingePrint==0x1234abcd) Load_ABCD(FingerPrint,cip); ..." chain, the rows of which are #ifdef ABCD ... #endif -paired.
20:00:38 <fizzie> It's not very elegant.
20:00:45 <AnMaster> yeah
20:00:55 <fizzie> Especially since the Makefile does not test for those defines, so it anyway compiles in the scke.c code.
20:01:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, cfunge's way is more complex
20:01:16 <AnMaster> it uses something called .spec files to generate a header with an array containing fingeprint info
20:01:43 <AnMaster> BASE.spec looks like this : http://rafb.net/p/mYyMio54.html
20:01:46 <fizzie> I think GLfunge used dlopen()ed libs which had an init function of sorts that could map instructions. Don't remember the details. It wasn't especially clean.
20:02:12 <AnMaster> to generate a template file with all the loading code and empty functions for BASE I would run this: tools/gen_fingerprint.sh BASE
20:02:21 <AnMaster> to update the header I would run:
20:02:24 <AnMaster> tools/gen_fprint_list.sh
20:02:41 <AnMaster> the header got an array with entries like this in it:
20:02:42 <AnMaster> // BASE - I/O for numbers in other bases
20:02:43 <AnMaster> { .fprint = 0x42415345, .uri = NULL, .loader = &FingerBASEload, .opcodes = "BHINO",
20:02:43 <AnMaster>   .url = "http://www.elf-emulation.com/funge/rcfunge_manual.html", .safe = true },
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20:03:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, what do you think of my way? :)
20:03:34 <AnMaster> I'd say it is pretty elegant
20:03:37 <AnMaster> though complex
20:05:20 -!- tusho|away has changed nick to tusho.
20:07:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is even better, I can do directed fuzz testing of a fingerprint with another script that extracts info about what instructions a fingerprint implements then generates some random data containing that (+ some core instructions). It automatically runs each generated program under first plain cfunge, then under valgrind, if any of them fail in some way (that is, anything but exit code zero o
20:07:18 <AnMaster> r due to SIGALARM, for time limit) it will break and let the user debug what went wrong
20:07:24 <AnMaster> helped me find quite a few bugs :)
20:07:34 <AnMaster> crash bugs that is
20:07:55 <AnMaster> or bad memory stuff
20:08:46 <tusho> AnMaster: don't you have something better to do
20:08:55 <AnMaster> tusho, huh?
20:09:23 <AnMaster> tusho, if you don't like me talking to fizzie just use /ignore then...
20:09:33 <tusho> i was referring to the fuzz testing stuff
20:09:34 <tusho> :P
20:09:35 * AnMaster shrugs
20:09:42 <AnMaster> oh hah
20:09:42 <Deewiant> why not, if it works
20:09:48 <AnMaster> indeed Deewiant
20:10:42 <AnMaster> it isn't perfect (it needs recompiling cfunge with a special -D option, that sets an alarm() and always make exit code from q 0 no matter what, it is only for fuzz testing, it is of course not fully standard conforming)
20:12:10 <AnMaster> the way CCBI does fingerprints seem pretty clean too
20:12:28 <AnMaster> not sure though
20:12:39 <AnMaster> as I don't understand that mixin stuff or whatever it was
20:13:27 <Deewiant> just generate the identifier at compile-time
20:13:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm?
20:13:46 <Deewiant> the mixin
20:13:53 <AnMaster> yeah
20:13:58 <AnMaster> what does that mean though :P
20:14:27 <AnMaster> and how do you find the fingerprints that are available, I still don't get that
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20:14:32 <AnMaster> some sort of reflection?
20:14:35 <Deewiant> so I can say "BLAA" and it'll generate 0x424c4141
20:14:43 <AnMaster> ah
20:14:45 <Deewiant> rather, "cell BLAA = 0x424c4141;"
20:14:49 <AnMaster> well for me the bash script does that
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20:15:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where do you keep the list of available fingerprints?
20:15:12 <Deewiant> in the makefile-equivalent, ccbi.rf
20:15:17 <AnMaster> ah
20:15:23 <Deewiant> it has a list of what to compile in
20:15:26 <fizzie> You should be the happy now: fungot uses FING and no longer FNGR.
20:15:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, nice!
20:15:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok sure I see that list
20:16:02 <fizzie> Whoops, and there's also a completely half-implemented http:// url support which will crash it when used. :p
20:16:04 <AnMaster> but how do you know how to search them
20:16:10 <Deewiant> what do you mean
20:16:18 <fizzie> ^def test bf http://example.com/example.bf
20:16:19 <fungot> Host not found.
20:16:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I mean where do you put them into some array that you can look up in when loading the fingerprint
20:16:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: in the static constructors in the fingerprint files, they modify the fingerprints hashmap
20:16:42 <fizzie> Hmm, maybe it actually does not crash. But it does not work correctly either. I forgot I had that part in there.
20:16:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, aha
20:16:59 <AnMaster> ok that is kind of neat
20:17:07 <Deewiant> yes, it's quite clean :-)
20:17:25 <Deewiant> but it uses global state and all so it's not as great as it could be :-/
20:17:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still that would have caused issues with PNTR alias no?
20:17:38 <AnMaster> or maybe not
20:17:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no, I just did fingerprints[PNTR] = fingerprints[INDV];
20:18:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway that static constructor... is it run when you run ccbi?
20:18:12 <Deewiant> before the main function
20:18:13 <AnMaster> or somehow pre-run at compile time?
20:18:14 <AnMaster> ah
20:18:33 <Deewiant> which is a bit of startup time overhead :-)
20:18:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, cfunge does the "put in array" at, no before, compile time :)
20:18:36 <Deewiant> but such is life
20:18:41 <AnMaster> yeah
20:27:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um your FILE test doesn't properly close some file I think
20:27:35 <AnMaster> I get a leak there that I shouldn't
20:27:37 * AnMaster debugs more
20:27:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: possible, I wasn't careful about that when I added D
20:27:55 <Deewiant> if it's before that then it's an old bug :-)
20:27:59 <AnMaster> hm...
20:28:00 <AnMaster> maybe not
20:28:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I just see a leak list at the end
20:28:42 <AnMaster> actually...
20:28:54 <tusho> AnMaster
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20:29:00 <AnMaster> not sure
20:29:02 <tusho> ah wait
20:29:05 <AnMaster> tusho, yes?
20:29:08 <tusho> no
20:29:16 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: to quote the FING spec: "Z pull push"
20:29:16 <AnMaster> tusho, what was it?
20:29:23 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: might want to fix that ;-)
20:29:23 <MikeRiley> ???
20:29:26 <tusho> AnMaster: nuthin
20:29:28 <MikeRiley> looking
20:29:33 <AnMaster> tusho, say it in /msg then?
20:29:43 <tusho> its irrelevant
20:29:45 <tusho> I misinterpreted
20:30:16 <MikeRiley> see error.....will fix....
20:30:31 <AnMaster> ==30562==    still reachable: 96 bytes in 2 blocks. <-- well 80 of those bytes are from REFC, which I *can't* fix, the remaining 16 bytes are from FILE which I think may be a mycolgy issue
20:30:34 <AnMaster> but not sure yet
20:30:44 <AnMaster> tusho, hm ok
20:31:04 <MikeRiley> anything else i should fix??
20:31:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you can deallocate REFC when the program is terminated, no?
20:31:06 <AnMaster> other than that all memory is freed at exit
20:31:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure, but then it is kind of pointless isn't it
20:31:21 <AnMaster> ?
20:31:37 <AnMaster> I mean the OS will free it anyway
20:31:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and it seems like the same sort of issue for FILE in fact
20:32:01 <Deewiant> yeah, it doesn't matter, but if you want the errors to go away then that's that
20:32:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hmm? FILE shouldn't leave anything alive or?
20:32:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I already free some other such stuff in an atexit() if it is a debug build (funge space, ip list)
20:32:47 <AnMaster> (oh and argc/argv copies)
20:32:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the handle list
20:32:57 <AnMaster> static FungeFileHandle** handles = NULL;
20:33:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you can remove a handle once it's closed
20:33:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I do
20:33:15 <AnMaster> but the list is still there
20:33:24 <Deewiant> you can remove the list as well?
20:33:26 <AnMaster> if I used a static list and limited number of valid files, sure
20:33:30 <AnMaster> but I don't do that
20:33:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, again same issue as REFC really
20:34:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: no
20:34:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: in REFC, you may want to keep them alive if the fingerprint is loaded again
20:34:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well 16 bytes of memory that may be reused anyway?
20:34:22 <AnMaster> on 64-bit
20:34:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: in FILE, if closed you can delete it safely
20:34:28 <AnMaster> would be only 8 bytes on 32-bit
20:34:49 <AnMaster> allocated in chunks of 2 handles at a time
20:35:09 <MikeRiley> REFC does not specify that the list is cleared when unloaded...i keep the list until interpreter exit...
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20:35:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also there is no sane way to do a hook for "fingerprint unloaded" IMO
20:35:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I have such hooks...
20:35:52 <MikeRiley> added I command to MVRS,,,,pushes unique ID onto the stack....
20:35:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well sure, I'll just unload without loading then and mess you up
20:35:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or load twice and unload once
20:36:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it's smarter than that :-)
20:36:26 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, no no, it would be in MSGS according to Deewiant
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20:36:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how?
20:36:38 <MikeRiley> but MSGS would not know about universes...
20:36:43 <MikeRiley> so perfer it in MVRS
20:36:51 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: it doesn't have to, it can work in MVRS without knowing about them
20:36:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I could use some fingerprint to remap and still have it loaded even if number of loads/unloads matched
20:37:02 <Deewiant> please don't add it to MVRS :-P
20:37:18 <MikeRiley> why not???
20:37:26 <Deewiant> because it doesn't belong there
20:37:41 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, MSGS pushes a "unique implementation defined ID" in one of it's instructions
20:37:51 <AnMaster> for the current IP
20:37:53 <MikeRiley> well,,,y allows an ip a way to get its id....why not a way to get the id when using MVRS???
20:38:10 <AnMaster> 0 and 1 are reserved anyway
20:38:10 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: because it's in MSGS, where it is needed
20:38:16 <MikeRiley> hmmmmmmmm
20:38:19 <Deewiant> not in MVRS, where it only may be needed
20:38:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and yeah, that's going to be fixed in the next version :-)
20:38:46 <Deewiant> 2.0 rather
20:38:53 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, so if a interpreter doesn't have MVRS it would just push IP + 2, if it does have MVRS it would assign the IDs in some other way
20:38:56 <Deewiant> along with my major cleanup
20:39:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, eh?
20:39:09 <MikeRiley> why IP+2???
20:39:12 <AnMaster> IP ID + 2
20:39:21 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, because 0 and 1 are reserved
20:39:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: that if loads/unload match calling the destructor may be an error
20:39:25 <AnMaster> 0 = any ip
20:39:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hey no need for bcast instruction
20:39:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster, MikeRiley: might reserve more (or less) as well
20:39:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you would do send to 0
20:39:48 <MikeRiley> so, does not necesarily correspond with the id coming from y???
20:39:56 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, and 1 is for IP groups
20:39:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hmm, maybe yes
20:40:03 <AnMaster> ie you can register yourself to a named group
20:40:13 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: yes, it's a completely opaque value
20:40:14 <AnMaster> then 10"gnirts"
20:40:20 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: merely guaranteed to be unique for any given IP
20:40:23 <Deewiant> globally
20:40:25 <AnMaster> 1 means "followed by group name"
20:40:30 <MikeRiley> ok
20:40:34 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, this allow broadcast to a group
20:40:37 <AnMaster> very nifty idea
20:41:46 <MikeRiley> so,,,,no I in MVRS,,,,anything you do want in MVRS???
20:42:15 <AnMaster> well what you discussed with Deewiant before?
20:42:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, care to spec up MSGS?
20:42:31 <AnMaster> I would prefer you do it
20:42:36 <AnMaster> you are better at docs
20:42:45 <AnMaster> and you haven't made your own fingerprint so far as far as I know
20:42:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it won't be a very high priority for me but yes I can do it
20:43:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I would like to check the final draft though
20:43:24 <AnMaster> and such
20:43:37 <Deewiant> yeah yeah of course
20:45:00 <MikeRiley> just emailed both of you the latest working copy of the MVRS spec
20:45:09 <Deewiant> I'm off to bed now, nights ->
20:45:53 <MikeRiley> good night
20:49:24 <AnMaster> I'm also leaving for night soonish
20:50:12 <MikeRiley> so are you going to implement MVRS then??
20:50:32 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, not in cfunge, but probably in my planned future Funge coded in erlang
20:50:41 <AnMaster> I already wrote the Befunge-93 part of it
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20:50:55 <AnMaster> as a test project to see how feasible it would be
20:51:01 <MikeRiley> i see...
20:51:13 <AnMaster> and it showed great promise
20:51:14 <AnMaster> :)
20:51:21 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, erlang is a functional programming language
20:51:31 <MikeRiley> never tried it
20:51:39 <AnMaster> well it is rather nice IMO
20:51:54 <MikeRiley> i guess i should check it out sometime...
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20:53:40 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, oh my erlang befunge-93 is turing complete btw
20:53:44 <AnMaster> it uses BIGNUMs
20:53:55 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrary-precision_arithmetic
20:54:56 <MikeRiley> mvrs test scripts run with the changed B command....
20:55:00 <MikeRiley> will upload them shortly....
20:57:33 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I need to finish other parts of that erlang funge first so this may take quite a while
20:57:51 <AnMaster> it is rather low priority
20:58:00 <MikeRiley> i know all about priorities....
20:58:06 <AnMaster> and the next few months I will be busy with other stuff
20:58:14 <AnMaster> my holiday ends last August
20:58:53 <AnMaster> so if you are unlucky: next year, or even never
20:59:04 <AnMaster> however, I hope I will have time to do it :)
20:59:16 <AnMaster> it would certainly be a fun project
20:59:44 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, one thing though, about get/set of remote funge space... do you still have that?
20:59:47 <MikeRiley> i know about how long some projects can take....Rc/Funge-98 was started 10 years ago now!!!!
20:59:51 <MikeRiley> and i am still working on it...
20:59:53 <AnMaster> fine if you do, but one thing
20:59:57 <MikeRiley> yes i do...
21:00:04 <AnMaster> does that need to be sync in any way=
21:00:20 <MikeRiley> no....it will grab it as it appears at the time the command is executed...
21:00:29 <AnMaster> I would probably implement it as sending a request to read funge space to the other interpreter process, then waiting for a reply
21:00:43 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, because erlang got *no shared state* between processes
21:00:50 <AnMaster> all concurrency is done using message passing
21:00:55 <AnMaster> so that would be the only way
21:01:02 <AnMaster> there is no shared memory
21:01:04 <MikeRiley> you can implement it any way you like,,,,do not specify how to implement it,,,just what the function is...
21:01:14 <AnMaster> right
21:01:26 <MikeRiley> as long as it performs the function,,,underlying implementation is not important...
21:01:34 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, anyway erlang is very cool for concurrency, which would be the case here
21:01:47 <AnMaster> spawning processes in erlang is very cheap
21:01:51 <MikeRiley> just like the fingerprint stacks in Rc/Funge-98,,,they end up doing what is required,,,in a very different way....
21:01:52 <AnMaster> they all run under a VM
21:02:02 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, which means I can't call native OS functions either
21:02:02 <MikeRiley> i will have to take a look at that...
21:02:06 <MikeRiley> i see....
21:02:15 <AnMaster> there is file IO and such sure
21:02:25 <AnMaster> using file and io modules
21:02:38 <MikeRiley> so FILE could still be implemented then??? just a different underlying method....
21:02:45 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, but I can't just call a libc routine without serious mess
21:02:50 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, yep
21:02:59 <AnMaster> socket IO exists too
21:03:31 <AnMaster> the model for socket IO is rather different than what C uses though
21:03:42 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, so SOCK would be pretty hard I think
21:03:42 <MikeRiley> hopefully easier to deal with???
21:03:46 <MikeRiley> sockets in C suck!!! :(
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21:04:03 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well it is easier to use sure... it just use the message passing API of erlang in an interesting way
21:04:14 <AnMaster> but it is not compatible with the SOCK fingerprint in any way
21:04:26 <AnMaster> would need some huge work to work with SOCK
21:04:30 <MikeRiley> so...will need a different form of SOCK then....
21:04:43 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, or a marshalling layer
21:04:53 <MikeRiley> which could be added as well...
21:05:04 <AnMaster> well I will see what I will do
21:05:07 <AnMaster> I'm not sure
21:05:15 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, currently it does Befunge-93
21:05:32 <AnMaster> there is quite a long way to go before it can do Befunge-98 even without fingerprints :P
21:05:45 <AnMaster> then I need to make a fingerprint mechanism
21:05:55 <AnMaster> oh and handle "normal" concurrent funge, that is t
21:06:03 <MikeRiley> yeah....funge/98 is much more complicated than 93 was...
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21:06:45 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I managed to code the 93 one in about 5 hours, even though I started learning the language just a few days before
21:06:47 <MikeRiley> i had a working funge/93 interpreter up and running within an hour two when i first saw that spec....98 took me much much longer...
21:07:13 <MikeRiley> that is pretty good!!! learning a language at the same time....
21:07:28 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well yeah, stack is *really* easy in erlang really
21:07:29 <AnMaster> lists
21:07:49 <AnMaster> http://bzr.kuonet.org/efunge/trunk/files
21:07:49 <AnMaster> and
21:07:55 <AnMaster> http://bzr.kuonet.org/efunge/trunk/annotate/12?file_id=fstack.erl-20080811122027-ouvcwe7ofgedh29n-3
21:08:19 <MikeRiley> looking
21:08:22 <oklopol> o
21:08:33 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, the latter one is all that is needed for a Befunge-93 stack
21:09:07 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, it can't modify existing stack as it is functional, instead it returns a new changed stack
21:09:18 <AnMaster> no mutable state either
21:09:27 <MikeRiley> i see....
21:09:40 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, you know any Haskell or such?
21:09:46 <MikeRiley> do not
21:09:59 <AnMaster> same style of language, though Haskell is purely functional, while erlang isn't
21:10:01 <MikeRiley> i had downloaded haskell at one time,,,but never dove into it...
21:11:10 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, anyway the befunge-93 interpreter got one or two bugs, input shows a [] prompt that I can't get rid of it seems :/
21:11:19 <AnMaster> have yet to figure that out
21:11:34 <AnMaster> oh and when the programs end it always print out the returned value of the function
21:11:40 <AnMaster> as everything got a value in erlang
21:11:56 <AnMaster> sure you can return void, but then you returned the value void
21:12:03 <MikeRiley> reminds me of another language i once played with,,,,which was also a functional language,,,so again,,,everything had return values
21:12:37 <AnMaster> ah so you know some basic stuff about functional languages then :)
21:12:44 <MikeRiley> a little bit...
21:13:20 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, anyway my stack code in erlang is 57 lines with comments
21:13:45 <AnMaster> my stack.c for cfunge is 544 lines
21:13:50 <MikeRiley> yikes!!!!
21:14:01 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well it includes stack-stack handling too
21:14:02 <MikeRiley> my stack code is not too large....let me go see...
21:14:06 <AnMaster> and realloc and such
21:14:22 <AnMaster> StackStackDuplicate() for concurrent funge
21:14:30 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, oh btw I write code with a lot of newlines
21:14:43 <AnMaster> let me check using a code line counter
21:14:46 <MikeRiley> mine stack code is about 80 lines...
21:15:18 <MikeRiley> that includes the stack stack stuff  and the stack duplicator for t
21:15:23 <AnMaster> for fstack.erl
21:15:24 <AnMaster> Language        Files       Code    Comment  Comment %      Blank      Total
21:15:25 <AnMaster> --------------  -----  ---------  ---------  ---------  ---------  ---------
21:15:25 <AnMaster> erlang              1         32         17      34.7%          8         57
21:15:25 <AnMaster> --------------  -----  ---------  ---------  ---------  ---------  ---------
21:15:25 <AnMaster> Total               1         32         17      34.7%          8         57
21:15:45 <AnMaster> for stack.c in cfunge:
21:15:46 <AnMaster> Language        Files       Code    Comment  Comment %      Blank      Total
21:15:47 <AnMaster> --------------  -----  ---------  ---------  ---------  ---------  ---------
21:15:47 <AnMaster> c                   1        403         61      13.1%         79        543
21:15:47 <AnMaster> --------------  -----  ---------  ---------  ---------  ---------  ---------
21:15:47 <AnMaster> Total               1        403         61      13.1%         79        543
21:16:14 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, you write rather compact code iirc
21:16:20 <AnMaster> I add a lot more newlines
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21:16:35 <AnMaster> you tend to write:
21:16:36 <AnMaster> if (foo) bar();
21:16:38 <AnMaster> I prefer
21:16:40 <AnMaster> if (foo)
21:16:43 <AnMaster>     bar();
21:16:52 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I guess that explain some of it
21:17:05 <MikeRiley> yes,,,i do tend to write compactly....
21:17:14 <MikeRiley> all of Rc/Funge-98 is in 10,443 lines...
21:17:17 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, also I got special functions for pushing strings, poping strings, pushing and popping vectors and so on
21:17:36 <MikeRiley> i have special functions for strings,,,,not for vectors tho...should add some for vectors...
21:18:16 <AnMaster> ~/src/cfunge/trunk/src $ ~/src/ohcount-1.0.1/bin/ohcount *.[ch] */*.[ch] */*/*.[ch]
21:18:19 <AnMaster> Total              80       6616       2781      29.6%       1175      10572
21:18:29 <AnMaster> Language        Files       Code    Comment  Comment %      Blank      Total
21:18:32 <AnMaster> that is
21:18:58 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, also got a stack peek, not just pop
21:19:02 <MikeRiley> ;you comment more than i do...
21:19:08 <AnMaster> probably
21:19:12 <MikeRiley> i do not have a peek,,,just the pop...
21:19:21 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I do use doxygen comments in my headers
21:19:23 <MikeRiley> my commenting tends to be very sparse...
21:19:25 <AnMaster> :P
21:19:47 <MikeRiley> i tend not to write the best code for others to understand....
21:19:48 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/ctJfly43.html
21:20:00 <AnMaster> just an example
21:20:15 <AnMaster> FUNGEDATATYPE should be renamed btw
21:20:21 <MikeRiley> looking
21:20:25 <AnMaster> it is a typedef, not a define nowdays
21:20:35 <AnMaster> so should be FungeCell or something
21:20:46 <AnMaster> need to tell ais though
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21:22:15 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, my stack push for one cell: http://rafb.net/p/Kw9t0W75.html
21:23:08 <AnMaster> cf_realloc is a #define for either normal realloc() or a Boehm-GC one
21:23:10 <MikeRiley> mine is more complicated that yours,,,,because of MODe
21:23:22 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well MODE I won't implement :P
21:23:31 <MikeRiley> do not blame you,,,it was a pain...
21:23:43 <MikeRiley> but since it was a cat's eye fingerprint,,,just felt that i had to...
21:24:17 <AnMaster> that is not a reason for me
21:24:46 <AnMaster> "do I see any use for it", "is it sane", "is it well defined", "is it cool" are reasons for me
21:24:46 <MikeRiley> i was crazy enough to implement anything that existed at the time...
21:25:06 <MikeRiley> in all reality,,i have never used anything in MODE...
21:26:59 <MikeRiley> never used some of even my fingerprints either actually...
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21:27:25 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well... if you were crazy enough to implement TRDS then you would have implemented anything else too
21:27:32 <AnMaster> I mean there is no worse than TRDS
21:27:38 <AnMaster> MVRS get close, but even so...
21:27:48 <AnMaster> but MVRS actually seems useful
21:27:51 <MikeRiley> true,,,,TRDS was major pain in the neck!!!!! almost sorry i ever dreamed that one up!!!
21:28:12 <MikeRiley> MVRS is nowhere near as convoluted,,,i was able to get my implementation of MVRS running in about a day...
21:28:34 <MikeRiley> yes,,,MVRS i can see having uses...TRDS was nothing more than a curio....
21:28:45 <AnMaster> still it is pretty feral, cfunge can't support multiple funge spaces without some *major* changes
21:29:18 <AnMaster> funge space is a hidden static variable in funge-space.c
21:29:28 <AnMaster> it is not passed around
21:29:42 <AnMaster> so even mini-funge would need some major redesign
21:30:08 <AnMaster> and that is not something I plan to do in cfunge
21:30:30 <MikeRiley> Rc/Funge-98 required massive changes to allow MVRS...
21:30:50 <AnMaster> cfunge will become a good Befunge-98/108 interpreter, it will not do the most feral extensions
21:31:04 <MikeRiley> but the same changes that allow MVRS also allow me to implement a much more powerful dynamic fingerprint system...
21:31:14 <AnMaster> while efunge will most likely do MVRS at some point
21:31:22 <AnMaster> though *never* TRDS or MODE :P
21:31:31 <MikeRiley> i have no problem with ferel extensions,,,,if they are within reason....
21:31:42 <AnMaster> oh and FRTH would be painful in efunge too
21:31:54 <MikeRiley> how come??? would not think that would be that hard...
21:32:22 <AnMaster> reason: stack is a list, you can access head of list and tail (ie, everything except first element), so you just add/remove at the end
21:32:26 <AnMaster> but access by index...
21:32:27 <AnMaster> hard
21:32:55 <AnMaster> you work recursively on the list, getting next element
21:33:06 <AnMaster> the list *acts* like a single linked list most of the time
21:33:16 <AnMaster> treating it in other ways is pretty painful
21:33:30 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, see what I mean?
21:35:14 <MikeRiley> yep...see what you mean...
21:36:23 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, also the way I currently do funge space is a bit slow, I mean slow as in Befunge-93 part of mycology feels slow
21:36:31 <AnMaster> so I got another idea
21:36:49 <AnMaster> it is using the single global state thing that actually exists in erlang
21:37:12 <AnMaster> called ETS
21:37:39 <AnMaster> it is used as backend for the rather fast database engine in erlang that is called mnesia
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21:38:29 <MikeRiley> i see.....
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21:55:40 <tusho> so
21:55:44 <tusho> say I wrote an inasnely feral extension
21:55:49 <tusho> like, crazily
21:55:50 <tusho> and then
21:55:55 <tusho> wrote like 50 amazing befunge programs with it
21:55:56 <tusho> truly amazing
21:56:01 <tusho> would AnMaster implement it?
21:56:20 <AnMaster> tusho, I already said I would, in efunge
21:56:26 <AnMaster> it is not a top priority either
21:56:31 <AnMaster> no not in cfunge
21:56:36 <AnMaster> but likely in the future efunge
21:56:44 <tusho> AnMaster: so cfunge would be not that useful as I'll have written like
21:56:46 <AnMaster> however should I follow your model tusho, that will never happen
21:56:47 <tusho> the most befunge programs of anyone
21:57:03 <tusho> [21:56:46] <AnMaster> however should I follow your model tusho, that will never happen
21:57:04 <tusho> that makes no sense
21:57:09 <AnMaster> tusho, botte
21:57:13 <AnMaster> we are still waiting
21:57:23 <tusho> ah.
21:57:26 <tusho> are you dying?
21:57:28 <AnMaster> no
21:57:30 <tusho> i'm sure it's paining you greatly
21:57:31 <tusho> :D
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2008-08-21:

00:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | well, extern char**environ is the part of the POSIX API, so it makes sense that windows has its own API :-P.
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05:06:33 <funktio> AnMaster: I haven't put it online (yet)
05:08:25 <funktio> it's not very interesting, quite ugly code and I haven't implemented any fingerprints
05:08:29 <funktio> but I can upload it somewhere
05:22:31 <funktio> Deewiant: at the end of line 36 in Mycology, there's  " dna gnihton seod 5;;; k2 :BAD"
05:22:50 <funktio> shouldn't that BAD be DAB?
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06:07:58 <funktio> http://funktio.awardspace.com/misc/hsfunge/
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06:33:32 <asiekierka> hello
06:33:44 <jeffz> hi
06:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Bastard..
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06:41:46 <Deewiant> funktio: isn't that the one you told me about earlier? That's fixed in the latest version
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06:43:30 <funktio> Deewiant: oh, it seemed to still be in the latest version
06:43:33 * funktio checks
06:45:48 <funktio> yes it's fixed, I wonder why I still had the older version
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06:55:31 <fizzie> asiekierka; No new interpreters in fungot, but there is again a way to define long programs. (Might be better not to use it much until I've implemented the persistence stuff so that defined programs aren't forgotten when I need to restart it.)
06:56:38 <asiekierka> by HTTP? :D *goes to upload Lost Kingdom*
06:56:58 <fizzie> No, just via IRC. Like this:
06:57:03 <fizzie> ^str 0 set ,[
06:57:03 <fungot> Set: ,[
06:57:10 <fizzie> ^str 0 add .,]
06:57:11 <fungot> Added.
06:57:14 <fizzie> ^def echo bf str:0
06:57:15 <fungot> Defined.
06:57:17 <fizzie> ^show echo
06:57:17 <fungot> ,[.,]
06:57:26 <fizzie> ^echo Like that.
06:57:26 <fungot> Like that.
06:57:29 <fizzie> ^help
06:57:29 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
06:58:15 <asiekierka> oh, ok
06:58:23 <asiekierka> but echo is wrong! It isn't an echo!
06:58:37 <asiekierka> ^str 0 set ,[..,]
06:58:38 <fungot> Set: ,[..,]
06:58:43 <asiekierka> ^def echo bf str:0
06:58:44 <fungot> Defined.
06:58:49 <asiekierka> ^echo THIS is echo.
06:58:50 <fungot> TTHHIISS  iiss  eecchhoo..
06:58:56 <fizzie> No, that's a reverb. :p
06:59:07 <fizzie> I will add HTTP URLs at some point; currently it's broken that way.
06:59:23 <fizzie> ^def test bf http://example.com/cool_brainfuck_program.b
06:59:24 <fungot> Host not found.
06:59:35 <fizzie> I think it will mostly just answer that way.
06:59:55 <asiekierka> I did see you were testing it once
06:59:55 <asiekierka> ^show test
06:59:55 <asiekierka> Oh wait
06:59:56 <asiekierka> the address doesn't exist
07:00:02 <asiekierka> But let's see anyway
07:00:35 <fizzie> ^def test bf http://zem.fi/no_brainfuck_in_here.b
07:00:35 <fungot> Host not found.
07:01:11 <fizzie> That host should exist, but there's something wrong with my hostname lookups there. A good thing, too: if it were to succeed, it'd just die since I haven't written any code after that yet.
07:01:19 <asiekierka> . . .
07:01:33 <asiekierka> Haha.
07:03:14 <asiekierka> I wonder what esolang i should create an ircbot in, since BFirc is for now suspended a little
07:03:31 <asiekierka> Due to problems with the python bfirc interpreter and my bf interpreter/debugger
07:28:13 <fizzie> Hrm, I'm still having FING trouble. I want to use STRN G/P/A commands and FILE together here, so I do (STRN is already loaded)   "GNIF"4( "LLUN"4( 'AY'GY'PY 'G'KX 'P'BX "ELIF"4(   and it works just fine.
07:29:03 <fizzie> However, I don't know how to restore the situation. What I tried was   )'G'KX'P'BX))   but that seems to end up leaving at least G to reflect.
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07:32:26 <fizzie> My thinking was that the first ) would unload FILE cleanly, then 'G'KX 'P'BX would pretty much undo the earlier swaps, and then )) would unload NULL and FING. Does unloading NULL remove the G and P semantics from STRN since I dropped them from NULL, or what?
07:35:09 <fizzie> Seems so, because it works if I add 'T'GZ'T'PZ'T'AZ before unloading NULL.
07:39:16 <fizzie> Maybe I should've just loaded NULL under everything else, then I could probably have been ok with just   "GNIF"4( 'G'KX 'P'BX "ELIF"4( ... ) 'G'KX 'P'BX )   -- that's what I first tried, but apparently X reflects if there's nothing loaded on one of the things-to-swap.
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09:19:57 <fizzie> ^reload
09:20:05 <fizzie> ...
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09:24:41 <fizzie> ^def echo bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.>]<[<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.>]
09:24:42 <fungot> Defined.
09:24:48 <fizzie> ^echo Hmm.
09:24:49 <fungot> Hmm. Hmm.
09:25:02 <fizzie> ^def reverb bf ,[..,]
09:25:02 <fungot> Defined.
09:25:05 <fizzie> ^reverb Hmm.
09:25:06 <fungot> HHmmmm..
09:25:11 <fizzie> ^save
09:25:12 <fungot> OK.
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09:26:14 <fizzie> Yay, now it saves the defined commands as well as the ^str strings to a file. Now it only needs to actually load them back too. Well, will do that later.
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10:43:47 <fizzie> Hey, RC/Funge-98's debugger is broken re "show cell" and negative values.
10:45:16 <fizzie> When I enter "show cell 0 -10", it breaks the command argument to fields "cell", "0", "-" and "10", then converts those last three to coordinates and gives me cell x=0,y=0,z=10.
10:46:31 <Deewiant> use CCBI's ;-)
10:46:39 <Deewiant> although no FING :-/
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11:12:59 <fizzie> ^show
11:13:00 <fungot> echo reverb
11:13:03 <fizzie> ^show reverb
11:13:04 <fungot> ,[..,]
11:13:08 <fizzie> ^str 5 get
11:13:08 <fungot> Testing.
11:13:16 <fizzie> ^raw QUIT :do you PERSIST?
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11:13:34 <fizzie> ^show
11:13:34 <fungot> echo reverb
11:13:37 <fizzie> ^show reverb
11:13:37 <fungot> ,[..,]
11:13:41 <fizzie> ^str 5 get
11:13:41 <fungot> Testing.
11:14:25 <fizzie> Yay. No more "oh, fungot crashed, now I have to spoon-feed all the programs back in". (Well, unless it crashes and messes up the state file too.)
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11:15:46 <LinuS> hi there
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12:11:14 <fizzie> optbot: There was something I was going to ask you... do you happen to feel coherent right now?
12:11:15 <optbot> fizzie: but I'm not surprised that they're in ASCII
12:11:34 <fizzie> optbot: What are in ASCII?
12:11:34 <optbot> fizzie: lol
12:11:40 <fizzie> optbot: Hey!
12:11:40 <optbot> fizzie: paranoia :|
12:12:08 <fizzie> optbot: ...okay. You don't seem very coherent. Maybe I'll ask later.
12:12:09 <optbot> fizzie: except some by asimov of course
12:12:25 <fizzie> Obviously I did not ask during the operating hours this time.
12:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | my last name is "Richards" so the ownership form is " Richards' ".
12:46:21 <fizzie> optbot!
12:46:22 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | x+y.
12:46:27 <fizzie> optbot!
12:46:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I realize the issue with putting a constant in an argument ....
12:46:42 <fizzie> Meh, good enough.
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13:05:48 <Deewiant> optbot!
13:05:49 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i thought it was just the simple form that had the name.
13:05:55 <Deewiant> optbot!
13:05:55 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I know that.
13:06:02 <Deewiant> much better
13:19:24 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i said that simple form thing
13:19:36 <oklopol> but i get that feeling from pretty much everything
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13:40:50 <psygnisfive> oklopol! :D
13:42:56 <fizzie> Why doesn't oklopol change the topic when you do that?
13:43:07 <psygnisfive> because hes oklopol
13:43:10 <psygnisfive> not oklobot
13:44:02 <fizzie> Admittedly fungot doesn't change the topic either, and it's even a bot.
13:44:03 <fungot> Hi!
13:44:17 <fizzie> Whoops, I forgot I had my 'F' test there.
13:45:14 <fizzie> ^reload
13:45:15 <fungot> Reloaded.
13:45:30 <fizzie> A constant stream of "Hi!"s from fungot would have been pretty stupef-looking.
13:46:32 * oerjan is reminded of the Winslow
14:17:13 <fizzie> The "simple form" was indeed an Oklopol Comment(TM).
14:30:15 <oklopol> can you supply context?
14:30:28 <oklopol> it wasn't too long ago
14:32:08 <fizzie> 2008-06-12. "In mathematics, a Diophantine equation is an indeterminate polynomial equation that allows the variables to be integers only."
14:33:27 <oklopol> right
14:33:59 <oklopol> why would i ask context when i did remember it was a failure of mine
14:34:06 <oklopol> i don't like failing
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14:58:53 <tusho> Lost the game
15:03:11 <oklopol> who is what now?
15:04:56 <oerjan> who is the president of china
15:15:44 <tusho> i just lost the game, oklopol
15:16:03 <Deewiant> "the game" is approximately the stupidest thing ever
15:18:09 <tusho> Deewiant: so's your face but I don't mention that all the time
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16:17:09 <tusho> Dunno if this esolang idea has been done before but what the heck, I'm doing it.
16:17:23 <tusho> The interpreter starts off as a very simple Scheme (Just the very very core, and two extra functions)
16:17:26 <tusho> These two extra functions are:
16:17:35 <tusho> (set-interp! F) where F is a function
16:17:43 <tusho> replaces the interp with the lambda F
16:17:47 <tusho> and (get-interp)
16:17:56 <tusho> which returns a pair
16:18:07 <tusho> (current-interpreter . interpreter-as-this-pair-format-of-the-language-the-interpreter-is-in)
16:18:52 <oerjan> that's going to make it very important exactly when things are compiled
16:19:27 <oerjan> otherwise you would end up calling F inside F when the original function expects eval
16:20:55 <oerjan> or do you mean that while running F, it uses the second element of the pair
16:21:19 <oerjan> argh
16:21:37 <tusho> oerjan: the latter
16:21:59 <tusho> hmm, I'm going to make it ruby for simplicity (I can just make it a def of set-interp! and get-interp! and then use the ruby eval)
16:23:43 <tusho> Hm.
16:23:50 <tusho> it needs a quine, I think.
16:31:25 <tusho> Hm.
16:31:34 <tusho> On the other hand, I need to be able to get the program continuation as a stirng.
16:31:39 <tusho> (So that set_interp can switch over.)
16:32:21 <tusho> oerjan: Any thoughts? Brainfuck would be trivial (add {} for setting it and ? for getting it or something) but I'd have to extend dbfi to be able to interpret the dialet.
16:32:24 <tusho> *dialect
16:38:14 <oerjan> no thoughts. -> bus
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17:57:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you complained about that cfunge would be unable to handle a theoretical fingerprint 0. Well now it would be able though, though there would still be file name issues, but I will fix that bit if such a fingerprint is ever implemented in cfunge.
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18:01:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I've only got around 15-20 instructions for it so far
18:01:49 <tusho> hahahaha Deewiant
18:01:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I may not implement it of course
18:01:55 <AnMaster> :P
18:02:05 <tusho> Deewiant: Make it feral!
18:02:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway what do you plan for it to do?
18:02:31 <AnMaster> tusho, so what? I don't plan to implement all fingerprints in cfunge.
18:02:32 <Deewiant> a collection of useful stuff, some (most?) from other fingerprints
18:02:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anything from MODE or FRTH?
18:02:59 <Deewiant> with the idea that you can start your program with ( and get maximal use from A-Z
18:03:03 <Deewiant> all of FRTH I think
18:03:11 <Deewiant> haven't exactly pinned it down
18:03:27 <AnMaster> well one thing, I don't like code duplication. Nor fingerprint duplication
18:03:28 <Deewiant> nothing from MODE at least so far
18:03:44 <tusho> AnMaster: because you absolutely can't just call the other fingerprint's functions
18:03:45 <tusho> right?
18:04:10 <AnMaster> tusho, not easily as it stands now, would need some work.
18:04:22 <AnMaster> possible of course though
18:05:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway can you pastebin your draft?
18:05:20 <Deewiant> no
18:05:33 <Deewiant> because no such thing exists :-P
18:05:45 <Deewiant> and it's so far from done it's not worth writing one
18:05:52 <AnMaster> ah ok
18:06:23 <Deewiant> have a couple of ideas which I will probably make into fingerprints of their own as well
18:13:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, apart from MSGS?
18:14:46 <Deewiant> yes
18:18:33 <AnMaster> hm nice
18:18:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what ones?
18:18:59 <Deewiant> too un-thought-through to talk about
18:19:21 <Deewiant> stuff that exploits the spatial nature of funges
18:21:15 <AnMaster> sounds interesting
18:22:15 <Deewiant> what I'm trying to do with 0 is think of stuff that I do a lot in Mycology which I'd like to be easier
18:25:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would mycology depend on 0 being implemented?
18:25:10 <Deewiant> of course not
18:25:13 <AnMaster> good
18:25:19 <Deewiant> don't be silly :-P
18:31:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw do you plan anything for bignums?
18:31:46 <AnMaster> I have some vague ideas about such a fingerprint, but I'm not sure if it is a good idea even
18:32:41 <Deewiant> no, I don't
18:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i just finished doing +.
18:44:21 <fizzie> optbot: What did you do the + for?
18:44:21 <optbot> fizzie: (err) unbound: c
18:44:29 -!- dogface has joined.
18:46:04 <Deewiant> optbot!
18:46:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | not upgrading.
18:49:04 -!- tusho has changed nick to tusho|away.
18:49:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw thanks to using mmap() I can avoid code duplication for supporting loading funge program for string (for CFFI) :P
18:49:53 <AnMaster> all I need is a wrapper for the load from memory area (or I couldn't handle null bytes when loading from file)
18:54:03 -!- tusho|away has changed nick to tusho.
18:57:42 <tusho> [18:44:21] <optbot> fizzie: (err) unbound: c
18:57:42 <optbot> tusho: jack saw jill on a hill with alice
18:57:44 <tusho> that's my bot
18:57:44 <tusho> :D
19:01:35 <AnMaster> huh, I don't understand this code for o in text mode... and I wrote it...
19:01:59 <Deewiant> ripped off from CCBI perhaps? ;-)
19:02:06 <AnMaster> no...
19:02:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or do you add to one array and then transfer that to another array?
19:02:43 <Deewiant> I can't remember what I do
19:02:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it looks like C style I think
19:03:14 <AnMaster> what I seem to do is:
19:03:27 <AnMaster> for each line do:
19:03:39 <AnMaster> 1) add full line to array of funge space
19:03:51 <AnMaster> 2) search backwards for first non-space
19:04:23 <AnMaster> 3) copy the array from 0 to first trailing space to another array called towrite
19:04:39 <AnMaster> then I write out that array towrite when I processed all lines
19:04:44 <Deewiant> sounds familiar to me
19:04:47 <AnMaster> seems like a bad way to do it
19:08:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, should non-text mode o add a final newline or not?
19:09:04 <Deewiant> why wouldn't it
19:09:27 <AnMaster> why would it?
19:09:50 <Deewiant> "The resulting text file is identical in appearance and takes up less storage space."
19:09:54 <Deewiant> when in text mode
19:09:57 <AnMaster> yes
19:10:01 <Deewiant> so
19:10:08 <AnMaster> due to less spaces at the end as well
19:10:14 <Deewiant> yes
19:10:37 <Deewiant> so, they write out the same data but when in text mode it removes extra spaces/EOLs
19:10:53 <Deewiant> so to me it makes sense that they both write a final EOL, in text mode any further ones are just removed
19:10:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but if you add a final \n in binary mode you couldn't use o to write something like an image file or a program or such
19:11:00 <AnMaster> if you see what I mean
19:11:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you can't use o for that very well anyway :-P
19:11:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why not?
19:11:39 <AnMaster> you just put one byte in each cell in one single line
19:11:44 <Deewiant> although right, you can store line breaks in funge-space
19:11:50 <AnMaster> exactly
19:11:54 -!- dogface has changed nick to ecmabot.
19:13:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what do you think then?
19:13:16 <Deewiant> so I guess not then
19:13:21 <Deewiant> but it seems silly
19:13:22 <AnMaster> what does CCBI do?
19:13:25 <Deewiant> why should one do it and the other not
19:13:35 <Deewiant> CCBI always appends a line break
19:13:46 -!- ecmabot has changed nick to ihope.
19:13:48 <AnMaster> currently cfunge does the same, but I plan to change that
19:13:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway text mode doesn't append any final newline
19:14:04 <AnMaster> doing that is against the specs
19:14:15 <Deewiant> yeah, that's what I'm thinking too
19:14:19 <Deewiant> makes it kinda annoying though
19:14:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why?
19:14:35 <AnMaster> cfunge doesn't add any trailing \n for text mode
19:14:37 <Deewiant> well you need to clear a line below the data you want to write if you want to write a text file
19:14:40 <AnMaster> but does for binary mode
19:14:45 <AnMaster> currently that is
19:14:47 <Deewiant> and you probably want to write a text file if you're writing in text mode
19:15:14 <AnMaster> well, it is still against the specs :P
19:15:25 <Deewiant> awfully useless
19:15:28 <Deewiant> I wonder what FBBI does
19:16:02 <AnMaster> I don't have FBBI sources around
19:16:09 * AnMaster waits for Deewiant to check
19:17:56 <Deewiant> looks like it always appends \n
19:17:59 <Deewiant>       fputc('\n', f);
19:18:12 <Deewiant> to every row, just like CCBI
19:18:13 <AnMaster> so then you mean the specs should be fixed?
19:18:30 <Deewiant> I don't mean anything, that's just what it does :-P
19:18:37 <Deewiant> wouldn't be the only bug in it
19:18:43 <AnMaster> what do you think 108 should say?
19:19:21 <Deewiant> I guess to me it makes most sense that text mode appends a line break and non-text doesn't
19:19:35 <AnMaster> hm
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19:25:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about text mode:
19:25:21 <AnMaster> What if (by using the p instruction for example) the written out data contains a literal LF in the middle of a line? Should spaces before that literal newline be stripped?
19:26:30 <Deewiant> yes
19:26:32 <Deewiant> IMO
19:26:43 <AnMaster> I'd say that is implementation-defined
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19:27:12 <Deewiant> there's no way to detect it from within standard funge anyway
19:27:42 <AnMaster> I don't think CCBI strips such spaces
19:28:57 <Deewiant> yes it does
19:29:49 <AnMaster> hm
19:33:08 <AnMaster> • If the least significant bit of the flags cell is high (0x1), o treats the file as a linear text file, otherwise as a binary file:
19:33:08 <AnMaster> – Text file: Any spaces before each EOL, and any EOLs before the EOF, are not written out. The resulting text file is identical in appearance and takes up less storage space. There should however be one final newline after the last data.
19:33:08 <AnMaster> – Binary file: The funge space is written as it is, adding a newline after each line except the last.
19:33:13 <AnMaster> something like that works?
19:33:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
19:33:23 <Deewiant> yeah whatever
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19:35:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, eh?
19:35:34 <Deewiant> looks good to me :-P
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20:12:08 -!- asiekierka has joined.
20:12:15 <asiekierka> hhelloo
20:12:24 <asiekierka> ^help
20:12:24 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
20:12:31 <asiekierka> ^show
20:12:31 <fungot> echo reverb rev
20:12:39 <asiekierka> ^echo hey
20:12:39 <fungot> hey hey
20:12:42 <asiekierka> ^rev hey
20:12:42 <fungot> yeh
20:12:45 <asiekierka> ^reverb hey
20:12:46 <fungot> hheeyy
20:13:35 <asiekierka> ^rev rotor
20:13:36 <fungot> rotor
20:13:39 <asiekierka> ^rev mom
20:13:39 <fungot> mom
20:13:42 <asiekierka> ^rev dad
20:13:42 <fungot> dad
20:13:49 <asiekierka> ^rev sad.
20:13:49 <fungot> .das
20:14:05 <asiekierka> ^rev moc.kernel.net
20:14:05 <fungot> ten.lenrek.com
20:14:19 <asiekierka> ^rev hello ver^
20:14:19 <fungot> ^rev olleh
20:16:05 <asiekierka> ^rev ^rev olleh ver^ ver^
20:16:05 <fungot> ^rev ^rev hello ver^
20:17:48 <asiekierka> ^rev ^rev ^rev ^rev ^rev hello ver^ ver^ ver^ ver^ ver^
20:17:48 <asiekierka> SLOW :(
20:17:48 <fungot> ^rev ^rev ^rev ^rev ^rev olleh ver^ ver^ ver^ ver^
20:18:06 <asiekierka>  ^rev ^rev ^rev ^rev ^rev olleh ver^ ver^ ver^ ver^
20:19:45 <Deewiant> ^rev »_«
20:19:46 <fungot> .._..
20:19:49 <Deewiant> fail
20:19:57 <Deewiant> optbot!
20:19:58 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I should write that unlambda-abstraction-introducer, sometime.
20:20:00 <Deewiant> optbot!
20:20:01 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | >>>1+2.
20:23:21 <asiekierka> opt
20:23:23 <asiekierka> bot
20:23:23 <asiekierka> !
20:25:06 <fizzie> It reverses bytes, not UTF-8 characters.
20:25:54 <asiekierka> ^show re
20:25:55 <asiekierka> ^show rev
20:26:02 <asiekierka> ^show rev
20:26:03 <fungot> >1,[>1,]>999[.>999]
20:26:21 <asiekierka> wait, wwwhat are the numbers?
20:26:41 <fizzie> >999 equals <1. It's the compiled bytecode, it doesn't have separate > and < instructions.
20:27:01 <asiekierka> Oh
20:27:05 <asiekierka> Now i know why it lags
20:27:07 <asiekierka> :P
20:27:11 <fizzie> But there's a bug when you do "^show <something undefined>", it seems; it corrupts the next message. Must fix that at some point.
20:27:26 <fizzie> That's why it didn't answer your first "^show rev".
20:27:32 -!- LinuS has joined.
20:27:36 <asiekierka> You should add <1 or something
20:27:57 <asiekierka> Also, can i write, for example, [3 manually?
20:27:59 <asiekierka> for [[[
20:28:26 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
20:28:42 <asiekierka> ^def test bf [3-]3
20:28:43 <fungot> Defined.
20:28:46 <asiekierka> ^show test
20:28:47 <fungot> [+255]
20:28:53 <fizzie> That's just [-].
20:29:00 <asiekierka> ...Penultimate lag
20:29:12 <fizzie> The "^bf" and "^def foo bf" accept standard brainfuck. In any case, [3 in the bytecode thing would mean "a single [ whose jump destination is at 3".
20:29:26 <asiekierka> Add - and <, you'll get a GGIIGGAANNTTIICC speed incerase i think
20:29:46 <fizzie> Huh? The addition speed does not depend on the number.
20:29:55 <asiekierka> +255 = plus 255
20:30:09 <asiekierka> or do you compile it to minus 1 while processing the bytecode
20:30:16 <fizzie> It's stored and executed as a single "add 255" instruction.
20:30:29 <asiekierka> Oh
20:30:32 <asiekierka> That's okay
20:30:37 <asiekierka> but why it stil lags a lot
20:30:59 <fizzie> I would think that's more of an IRC issue than the interpreter.
20:31:04 <fizzie> It's pretty fast when testing locally.
20:31:26 <fizzie> Well, it _is_ slow with complicated programs, but ^rev and friends execute pretty much instantly.
20:31:28 <asiekierka> oh. Maybe it's your internet connection, too
20:31:40 <fizzie> Usually I'd just blame freenode.
20:32:09 <fizzie> This should be about 100 Mbps both directions. At least I get that sort of speeds from most big sites.
20:33:41 <fizzie> But I added a persistence system during the day; now it won't forget things when I need to restart it.
20:33:45 <fizzie> ^show
20:33:46 <fungot> echo reverb rev test
20:33:52 <fizzie> ^raw QUIT :DIE DIE DIE
20:33:53 -!- fungot has quit ("DIE DIE DIE").
20:34:11 -!- fungot has joined.
20:34:15 <fizzie> ^show
20:34:15 <fungot> echo reverb rev
20:34:24 <fizzie> (It's missing "test", because I forgot to save. Heh.)
20:37:29 -!- asiekierka has quit (Nick collision from services.).
20:37:34 -!- asiekierka has joined.
20:37:35 <asiekierka> BOO
20:47:22 <ihope> CPP
20:49:26 <ihope> DQQ, ERR, FSS, GTT, HUU, IVV, JWW, KXX, LYY, MZZ... um...
20:49:44 <ihope> N[[.
20:49:57 <AnMaster> <fizzie> >999 equals <1. It's the compiled bytecode, it doesn't have separate > and < instructions. <-- so you optimise?
20:50:12 <AnMaster> I hope you optimise [-] into a single "set cell to zero" then
20:51:42 <AnMaster> and +++ into 3+ then?
20:57:29 <fizzie> I only combine consecutive strings of <>+- instructions.
20:57:54 <fizzie> Oh, and precompute [] pair targets, but that's not much of an optimization.
20:58:18 -!- ihope has changed nick to dogface.
20:59:29 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:00:46 <fizzie> (The bytecode has 6 instructions: add argument to cell (modulo 256), add argument to pointer (modulo 1000), set "PC" to argument if current cell zero, set "PC" to argument if current cell nonzero, input to current cell (with a dummy argument), output from current cell (also with a dummy argument) which are all packed into two-funge-space-cell pairs, opcode (1-6) and argument.
21:02:32 -!- RedDak has joined.
21:03:39 <fizzie> I could pick up [-] too, although I should maybe then do a separate "remove all non-brainfuck stuff" pass for that to be more pleasant. Or else stick the check in the part where I write a ] instruction into the bytecode.
21:05:54 * dogface compresses Agora's Rule 101 into a /// program
21:12:13 -!- oklopol has joined.
21:12:17 <oklopol> o
21:12:44 <fizzie> -klopol.
21:13:01 <oklopol> correct!
21:13:44 <fizzie> ^rev !tobtpo
21:13:44 <fungot> optbot!
21:13:45 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | left-to-right is more natural, I would have thought.
21:14:02 <fizzie> Indirection.
21:18:27 -!- tritonio_ has joined.
21:18:32 -!- tritonio__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:19:05 -!- LinuS has quit (Network is unreachable).
21:26:41 <dogface> o
21:26:53 <dogface> Oh, fizzie's not a bot.
21:27:28 * dogface successfully takes a whopping 40 characters off the 1500-character Rule 101 of Agora
21:47:55 <fizzie> Do I look botty or something?
21:48:18 <dogface> Everyone from Finland is a bot.
21:49:09 <fizzie> So oklopol and Deewiant are bots too?
21:49:40 <dogface> If they're from Finland, yes.
21:49:49 <fizzie> I think they are.
21:50:11 <fizzie> optbot: You're not from Finland, are you?
21:50:11 <optbot> fizzie: I'm not really looking for fair or accurate. Experience-based might be useful, but not necessary.
21:51:44 * dogface starts compressing the entire Agora SLR instead of just a little piece
22:14:36 <dogface> Cool. In the Short Logical Ruleset, the most common 2-character sequence is "  ", at 12715.
22:17:31 <dogface> The most common 3-character sequence is "   ", at 10393, which could be compressed to remove 20786 characters. The most common 4-character sequence is "----", at 8844, which could be compressed to remove 26532 characters. The most common 5-character sequence is "-----", at 8712, which could be compressed to remove 34848 characters.
22:18:01 <dogface> And yes, I'm being naive by assuming that 8712 instances of ----- means 8712 non-overlapping instances of -----.
22:19:55 <dogface> Being familiar with the SLR, I know that this is actually 132 instances of ----------------------------------------------------------------------, which has 70 characters.
22:19:59 -!- RedDak has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:21:02 * dogface continues naive analysis
22:21:08 -!- Judofyr has quit.
22:23:43 * dogface decides to stop at 6 characters
22:25:45 <dogface> Trivia: The SLR contains ! twice, " roughly a hundred times, # four times, and $ not at all.
22:26:15 <fizzie> It is not made out of money, then.
22:26:34 <dogface> Darn, I think I made Notepad freeze up.
22:27:04 <dogface> Well, it at least claims to be slaving away still.
22:27:25 * dogface kills it anyway
22:27:43 * dogface uses WordPad instead
22:29:21 <dogface> So, I've compressed the SLR down from 132 KB to 125 KB.
22:33:45 <dogface> And to 115 KB.
22:39:14 <dogface> And by 115, I meant 116. Now I have it down to 115.
22:40:36 <psygnisfive> how do you find out who created a channel??
22:40:37 <psygnisfive> o.o;
22:41:41 <Slereah_> You ask.
22:42:06 <Slereah_> Here's a good way to ask :
22:42:12 <Slereah_> THEN WHO WAS CREATOR?
22:45:35 <dogface> Why do you want to find out who created a channel?
22:46:11 <psygnisfive> uh
22:46:22 <psygnisfive> because i want to?
22:46:24 <psygnisfive> who cares why
22:46:41 <dogface> In that case, I have no idea.
22:46:52 <dogface> It's likely that it's not possible.
22:46:57 <psygnisfive> i know it is
22:47:03 <psygnisfive> because its how you report abuse on freenode
22:47:09 <psygnisfive> you complain to the guy who created the channel
22:48:04 <dogface> So if I join a channel, then somebody else joins, and I deop myself and op them, and they register it and it goes on to... be abused somehow, people are supposed to complain to me?
22:48:53 <jeffz> psygnisfive: /msg chanserv info #esoteric
22:49:03 <psygnisfive> thank you :)
22:51:21 <Slereah_> [23:50:50] -ChanServ- Founder    : andreou
22:51:21 <Slereah_> -
22:51:21 <Slereah_> [23:50:50] -ChanServ- Registered : Jan 03 01:30:22 2003 (5 years, 33 weeks, 1 day, 20:20:46 ago)
22:51:22 <Slereah_> :o
22:51:31 <Slereah_> Who's andreou?
22:51:55 <psygnisfive> phone.
22:51:57 <psygnisfive> !!!
22:52:06 <Slereah_> D:
22:52:15 <Slereah_> I just shat a wall of bricks
22:54:03 <dogface> Yay, down to 114 KB.
22:59:15 <dogface> And then all the way down to 110 KB.
23:02:46 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:03:20 <oklopol> suddenly i want to sort my deck of cards and try to mimic manual shuffles with python
23:07:06 <psygnisfive> oklopolll
23:07:20 <psygnisfive> i love oyu.
23:09:10 <oklopol> oyu is great
23:11:53 <psygnisfive> :D
23:13:16 <tusho> andreou is someone who actually talked about esolangs here.
23:13:17 -!- Slereah has joined.
23:13:20 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
23:15:43 <oklopol> that's one weird guy
23:19:57 -!- tritonio__ has joined.
23:20:52 -!- tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:21:26 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:21:34 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
23:27:18 <dogface> So, I've achieved 16% compression. Not bad.

2008-08-22:

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01:49:40 <dogface> Well, my Short Logical Ruleset compression project got boring after I got an error message and also decided I was doing it wrong.
01:50:10 <dogface> I got it down from 132 KB to 110 KB.
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02:07:20 <oklopol> let
02:07:24 <oklopol> yes, let.
02:08:03 <dogface> Now I need to replace every instance of "\n$$" with "?".
02:08:20 <oklopol> please do.
02:08:45 <oklopol> em
02:09:16 <dogface> em?
02:09:31 <oklopol> um.
02:09:52 <pikhq> Wow.
02:10:00 <pikhq> I don't see my roommate for a week, and then he moves.
02:10:55 <oklopol> the one you haven't talked to?
02:11:28 <pikhq> The one I've barely talked to.
02:12:50 <oklopol> i'm so happy for ya :-)
02:13:05 <oklopol> dogface: playing a gamie on another channel, and i'm kinda mouse-happy.
02:14:31 <dogface> :-)
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03:46:41 <psygnisf_> tusho!
03:46:44 <psygnisf_> tusho tusho tusho!
03:46:53 <psygnisf_> dont be not here! >.<
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06:38:10 <asiekierka> HHeelllloo
06:38:13 <asiekierka> ^show
06:38:14 <fungot> echo reverb rev
06:38:19 <asiekierka> ^show rev
06:38:19 <fungot> >1,[>1,]>999[.>999]
06:38:25 <asiekierka> ^rev lazy
06:38:26 <fungot> yzal
06:38:28 <asiekierka> ^rev lazylazy
06:38:28 <fungot> yzalyzal
06:38:30 -!- asiekierka has left (?).
06:38:33 -!- asiekierka has joined.
06:38:50 <asiekierka> ^rev rotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotor
06:38:50 <fungot> rotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotor
06:38:58 <asiekierka> ^rev rotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotor
06:38:58 <fungot> rotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorotorot ...
06:39:05 <asiekierka> Eh.
06:41:18 <puzzlet_> wow
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06:58:13 <fizzie> El toro.
07:00:01 <asiekierka> I must make a screeble todah
07:00:03 <asiekierka> today*
07:00:11 <asiekierka> I didn't make one for three--four days
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14:25:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there?
14:25:50 <AnMaster> will CCBI ever implement 3DSP? And will mycology ever test it?
14:27:44 <Deewiant> CCBI already implemented it
14:28:02 <Deewiant> testing it is the next thing I intend to add to mycology
14:28:07 <oklopol> PRAISE CCBI!
14:28:28 <AnMaster> ah
14:28:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since when?
14:29:18 <Deewiant> since the latest release
14:29:20 <Deewiant> two days ago?
14:29:37 <Deewiant> three, evidently
14:29:54 <AnMaster> ah right
14:30:19 <AnMaster> well I will need to look at CCBI source here, because I don't know what "Generate a translation matrix" means
14:30:23 <Deewiant> if you have nothing to do, you can make cfunge pass the unfinished http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/asdf.b98
14:30:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is that one?
14:30:49 <Deewiant> the beginnings of what will be mycoedge.b98
14:31:00 <Deewiant> you can run it and see
14:31:10 <AnMaster> is this defined in the standard?
14:31:11 <Deewiant> doesn't use fingerprints or anything
14:31:16 <Deewiant> yes yes
14:31:29 <AnMaster> hm
14:31:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you mean I have to shrink minimal point?!
14:31:41 <AnMaster> and such
14:31:48 <Deewiant> I was just about to get the latest cfunge to see if it works
14:31:59 <AnMaster> I only grow, never shrink the boundaries
14:32:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I mean you need to push the correct minimal point :-)
14:32:09 <AnMaster> shrinking them would be rather slow at least for mycology
14:32:10 <Deewiant> CCBI gets GOOD/BAD/BAD
14:32:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah no I get BAD/BAD/BAD there
14:32:21 <AnMaster> oh well
14:32:31 <Deewiant> heh, you don't even load the beginning point when you load the file
14:32:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think I set 0,0
14:32:42 <Deewiant> that was at least definitely a bug :-)
14:32:59 <AnMaster> well that I can fix easily
14:33:03 <AnMaster> the other two: what do you mean?
14:33:11 <Deewiant> what do you mean what do I mean
14:33:39 <Deewiant> the standard says "1 vector containing the least point which contains a non-space cell, relative to the origin"
14:33:40 <AnMaster> BAD: after removing (14,0) y doesn't say minimal point is (14,5)
14:33:41 <AnMaster> BAD: after removing (14,5) y doesn't say minimal point is (15,5)
14:33:42 <AnMaster> I don't get that
14:33:50 <Deewiant> yeah, so the minimal point was first (14,0)
14:33:57 <Deewiant> so it's removed, and then the minimal point is no longer (14,0)
14:34:11 <Deewiant> and likewise for (14,5)
14:34:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you mean I have to track when cells are set to space in order to shrink the boundaries?
14:34:24 <Deewiant> yes
14:34:26 <funktio>  if (0,1) and (1,0) contain someting but (0,0) doesn't, what's the correct answer?
14:34:28 <AnMaster> that would need a scan of funge space after each change of it
14:34:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not realistic
14:34:33 <Deewiant> funktio: (0,0=
14:34:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it's what the spec says
14:34:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I still say it is not realistic
14:34:50 <Deewiant> and I think it can be implemented without doing a scan
14:35:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then I will make my t follow the spec too
14:35:02 <Deewiant> keep track of what lines contain data and what not
14:35:05 <AnMaster> if that is what you prefer
14:35:12 <funktio> Deewiant: but (0,0) doesn't contain a non-space cell
14:35:58 <Deewiant> funktio: quite, but the idea is to be able to draw a rectangle from the minimal to the maximal point and encompass all non-space cells
14:36:06 <Deewiant> if you want to be strict about it that's undefined
14:36:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I plan to fix the first BAD later, not right now, but the other BAD I argue you shouldn't follow the spec for same reason as t
14:36:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: t is an obvious omission
14:36:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: this is actually doable
14:36:45 <Deewiant> and makes sense as well
14:36:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I won't have time to code that this year
14:36:59 * AnMaster shrugs
14:37:11 <Deewiant> whatever you say
14:37:20 <Deewiant> I don't think it's UNDEF though
14:38:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does FBBI shrink it?
14:38:16 <funktio> Deewiant: ok, I agree that that's obviously what the spec means
14:38:16 <Deewiant> probably not, haven't tried
14:38:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway just tracking if each line/col contains something isn't enough
14:38:59 <AnMaster> what if you set 2 values in it and remove one
14:39:02 <AnMaster> and so on
14:39:05 <funktio> another thing I'm not sure about is which space the IP should pause on in "a   b"
14:39:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: keep track of how many there are
14:39:19 <funktio> it can matter if other IPs change the space cells
14:39:27 <Deewiant> funktio: hmm
14:39:47 <Deewiant> funktio: I guess it has to be the last
14:39:58 <AnMaster> I make the first take a tick, and track if last was space in string then the next ones won't take any ticks
14:40:07 <Deewiant> funktio: or it doesn't /have/ to be but that would make most sense
14:40:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is UNDEF
14:40:16 <Deewiant> since you have to go that far to see whether there are more spaces anyway
14:40:22 <funktio> Deewiant: ok, I'll change to that
14:40:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes it is
14:40:32 <funktio> currently my interpreter stops on the first
14:40:34 <Deewiant> I'd say it's UNDEF
14:40:36 <AnMaster> and I'm not going to change the way I do
14:40:42 <AnMaster> funktio, so same as mine?
14:40:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: hmm, isn't that suboptimal ;-P
14:41:00 <funktio> AnMaster: I don't know what yours does :P
14:41:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how so?
14:41:03 <Deewiant> or right, like that
14:41:04 <Deewiant> sorry, misread
14:41:12 <AnMaster> funktio, <AnMaster> I make the first take a tick, and track if last was space in string then the next ones won't take any ticks
14:41:25 <funktio> oh yes, missed that
14:41:34 <Deewiant> so okay, I'd say it has to be the first or the last ;-)
14:41:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that would make most sense, but if there are more than 2 spaces it is undef and any space is allowed :P
14:41:56 <funktio> I'd say the first is better, because you could do something interesting with the other IPs
14:42:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: FBBI gets it wrong from the start
14:42:58 <Deewiant> but I think FBBI's y was completely wrong anyway
14:43:08 <Deewiant> funktio: yes, seems like more useful behaviour
14:43:14 <Deewiant> but I'd still say it's UNDEF
14:43:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I can change the initial boundary tracking and I will, though not today.
14:43:50 <AnMaster> but I will argue that the other two should be UNDEF
14:43:54 <funktio> I agree, it's UNDEF
14:44:36 <Deewiant> I think the spec is quite clear on the minimal point thing, and where it /is/ UNDEF ((1,0) and (0,1)) it's quite obvious what is meant anyway
14:44:58 <funktio> someone should rewrite the spec :P
14:45:21 <Deewiant> funktio: that's what AnMaster is doing, Funge-108
14:45:30 <Deewiant> although it might yet become -109 ;-)
14:45:35 <funktio> cool :)
14:45:47 <Deewiant> funktio: http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/funge-108/
15:00:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I was looking at your 3DSP and I think there may be an error but I'm not sure
15:00:51 <AnMaster> float len(float[] v) {
15:00:52 <AnMaster> assert (v.length == 3);
15:00:52 <AnMaster> return sqrt(v[0]*v[0] + v[1]*v[1] + v[2]*v[2]);
15:00:52 <AnMaster> }
15:01:01 <AnMaster> that seems very odd to me
15:01:21 <Deewiant> why
15:01:58 <AnMaster> why not use abs()
15:02:26 <AnMaster> fabs(v[0] + v[1] + v[2]); seems like the sane way to do it
15:02:31 <AnMaster> iirc that is correct
15:02:55 <AnMaster> or I may remember that wrong
15:03:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ?
15:03:16 <Deewiant> because that is a very different thing :-P
15:03:16 <oerjan> L^1 or L^2, that's the question
15:03:34 <AnMaster> hm ok
15:03:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: sqrt(x+y) != sqrt(x) + sqrt(y)
15:04:04 <oerjan> also, you want to take abs of each coordinate if you do that
15:04:10 <AnMaster> ah true
15:11:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in 3DSP are the matrixes stored on stack or?
15:11:19 <AnMaster> the docs doesn't say
15:11:30 <AnMaster> and you seem to store them in funge space
15:11:46 <Deewiant> I'm right ;-)
15:12:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I say it is impossible to implement it as it doesn't say where the matrix is stored
15:12:18 <AnMaster> that is using docs only
15:12:23 <Deewiant> and you're right!
15:12:27 <Deewiant> I had to email him about it
15:12:36 <Deewiant> guess he didn't realize to add to the docs
15:12:37 <AnMaster> well he haven't updated docs yet
15:12:48 <AnMaster> *sigh*
15:12:50 <Deewiant> no, he's updated them since then, he just didn't write anything
15:13:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so can you tell me how that is supposed to work?
15:13:21 <Deewiant> hmm
15:13:21 <Deewiant> IIRC
15:13:29 <Deewiant> x y z
15:13:29 <Deewiant> x y z
15:13:30 <Deewiant> x y z
15:13:41 <Deewiant> so a 3x3 block of funge-space
15:13:49 <Deewiant> I think it was in that order and not columnwise
15:13:56 <Deewiant> but I could be wrong
15:14:01 <AnMaster> right. Sounds like that horrible stuff I did with opengl about a year ago, hated that
15:14:08 <Deewiant> :-D
15:14:19 <AnMaster> vectors fine, matrixes: no thanks
15:14:19 <AnMaster> :/
15:14:22 <Deewiant> 3d math is done with matrices
15:14:24 <Deewiant> that's just how it is
15:14:30 <Deewiant> ah, and stupid me
15:14:30 <AnMaster> yeah :/
15:14:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 4x4 block
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15:14:37 <Deewiant> x y z w
15:14:38 <Deewiant> x y z w
15:14:38 <Deewiant> x y z w
15:14:38 <Deewiant> x y z w
15:14:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't remember how they *work* though
15:14:49 <Deewiant> er
15:15:01 <Deewiant> well yeah
15:15:01 <Deewiant> kind of like that
15:15:08 <AnMaster> so reverse engineer time
15:15:14 <Deewiant> >_<
15:15:47 <tusho> Hi.
15:16:48 <Deewiant> yello
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15:19:15 <AnMaster> s/$/w/
15:19:42 <Deewiant> s/w//
15:21:04 <funktio> I get (14,0),(14,4),(15,4) but asdf.b98 says the 4s should be 5s
15:21:37 <Deewiant> hmm, it's wrong isn't it
15:21:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, your popMtx() is unused
15:21:58 <Deewiant> :-/
15:22:16 <Deewiant> funktio: don't worry, it's not official yet :-)
15:23:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway just keeping track of number of cells in each col/row won't work, what you you overwrite a space with a space. and so on. This get complex pretty fast
15:23:43 <funktio> I initially got 3 BADs, but it was pretty easy to fix
15:23:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: not really, no
15:23:56 <Deewiant> so how'd you do it
15:27:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, huh?
15:27:22 <AnMaster> it is not used anywhere
15:27:30 <Deewiant> huh?
15:27:35 <AnMaster> oh that function
15:28:54 <Deewiant> heh, there are even some debug prints left in there
15:29:20 <psygnisf_> tusho!
15:29:42 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive.
15:30:05 <Deewiant> optbot!
15:30:05 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | saying "I".
15:30:09 <psygnisfive> tushp!
15:30:25 <psygnisfive> ..
15:30:26 <psygnisfive> tusho!
15:31:20 <psygnisfive> tusho
15:31:21 <psygnisfive> tusho
15:31:22 <psygnisfive> tusho
15:32:30 <psygnisfive> lame
15:32:31 <psygnisfive> D:
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15:33:45 <AnMaster> void mulMatrices
15:33:46 <AnMaster> (size_t ar, size_t ac, size_t br, size_t bc)
15:33:46 <AnMaster> (float[] a, float[] b, float[] r)
15:33:47 <AnMaster> huh?
15:33:50 <AnMaster> 2 parameter lists?
15:33:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ?
15:34:14 <Deewiant> one is compile-time
15:34:32 <AnMaster> which one?
15:34:47 <Deewiant> which do you think
15:34:54 <psygnisfive> it randomly alternates!
15:34:55 <AnMaster> the first I guess
15:35:01 <AnMaster> still it seems rather strange
15:35:31 <oklopol> is there a way to generate a random bit on this channel?
15:35:34 <AnMaster> but how the heck does that work
15:35:40 <oklopol> and if not, why the fuck not?
15:35:42 <Deewiant> oklopol: ask optbot something :-)
15:35:42 <optbot> Deewiant: looks like demented Lisp.
15:35:48 <oklopol> Deewiant: god no : )
15:35:53 <Deewiant> oklopol: and use the first bit
15:35:54 <Deewiant> :-P
15:36:08 <oklopol> nooo
15:36:11 <oklopol> that's not good
15:36:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about those parameter lists, you use the compile time arguments in the run time body it seems?
15:36:38 <psygnisfive> tusho!
15:36:41 <AnMaster> but where do you set them at compile time?
15:36:41 <psygnisfive> also
15:36:43 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
15:36:47 <psygnisfive> :D
15:36:55 <oklopol> i want a bit that's straight from a prng, not from an indirect application of it
15:36:58 <oklopol> psygnisfive! :DDDDDDD
15:37:05 <psygnisfive> howbeen
15:37:10 <oklopol> verymuch
15:37:18 <psygnisfive> very much?
15:37:18 <oklopol> ^help
15:37:18 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
15:37:22 <psygnisfive> whats that mean?
15:37:23 <psygnisfive> lol
15:37:34 <oklopol> fizzie: could you perhaps have some randoms?
15:37:40 <oklopol> psygnisfive: means not anything
15:37:45 <psygnisfive> :D
15:37:50 <oklopol> !
15:37:58 <fizzie> What sort of randoms?
15:38:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it's explicit and obvious at the call site
15:38:05 <AnMaster> ah
15:38:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why are you doing it that way?
15:38:25 <AnMaster> for speed?
15:38:33 <AnMaster> if yes you are way more speed crazy than em
15:38:34 <AnMaster> me*
15:38:40 <Deewiant> yeah, a bit of micro-optimization doesn't hurt
15:38:48 <Deewiant> and not really
15:38:59 <psygnisfive> tushooooo >.<
15:39:00 <AnMaster> anyway only bc seem to differ
15:39:03 <AnMaster> all the other ones are 4
15:39:12 <Deewiant> so? it's generic
15:39:45 <AnMaster> also br is never used it seems
15:39:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Mike manually unrolled the loop for the vector*matrix case and hardcodes all lengths so...
15:40:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm not that mad
15:40:06 <oklopol> fizzie: prng
15:40:33 <psygnisfive> i waited a whole month for this, and now tusho isnt here
15:40:36 <psygnisfive> what a bastard
15:40:41 <tusho> what do you want
15:40:54 <psygnisfive> happy birthday
15:41:19 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:41:21 <asiekierka> Hello
15:41:23 <tusho> oh, right, that
15:41:38 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles - #24 and #25!
15:41:53 <asiekierka> #24 is an old comic that was meant to be #23, made before the actual #23
15:42:07 <asiekierka> that was online
15:42:08 <fizzie> ^reload
15:42:09 <fungot> Reloaded.
15:42:12 <asiekierka> ^show
15:42:12 <fungot> echo reverb rev
15:42:13 <fizzie> oklopol: Added ^bool
15:42:14 <oklopol> tusho: you're 13?
15:42:15 <fizzie> ^bool
15:42:15 <fungot> Yes.
15:42:17 <fizzie> ^bool
15:42:18 <fungot> No.
15:42:18 <oklopol> ^bool
15:42:19 <fungot> No.
15:42:22 <asiekierka> ^bool
15:42:22 <fungot> No.
15:42:24 <asiekierka> ^bool
15:42:24 <fungot> Yes.
15:42:26 <asiekierka> ^bool
15:42:26 <fungot> Yes.
15:42:27 <asiekierka> ^bool
15:42:28 <oklopol> fizzie: thanks
15:42:28 <fungot> No.
15:42:28 <asiekierka> ^bool
15:42:29 <fungot> Yes.
15:42:34 <tusho> oklopol: yes
15:42:38 <oklopol> fizzie: what prng?
15:42:50 <tusho> oklopol: funge's ? presumably
15:42:52 <fizzie> oklopol: Dunno, whatever RC/Funge-98 uses for ?.
15:42:57 <oklopol> tusho: did you speak @ google? :)
15:43:00 <oklopol> and right, ?
15:43:03 <asiekierka> I thought you implemented an LFSR :(
15:43:05 <fizzie> Probably rand(), which on glibc is the same as random().
15:43:07 <oklopol> forgot it already has one
15:43:15 <psygnisfive> i would hope that if tusho spoke at google
15:43:23 <psygnisfive> he would be far more well prepared
15:43:26 <psygnisfive> and capable
15:43:35 <tusho> ...in bed?
15:43:46 <psygnisfive> what?
15:43:54 <tusho> I capitalized on the oppertunity.
15:44:01 <psygnisfive> what a faggot
15:44:08 <tusho> Thanks.
15:44:19 <oklopol> :)
15:44:26 <psygnisfive> ::pet::
15:44:31 <oklopol> tusho: you didn't answer!
15:44:37 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
15:44:41 <Slereah_> Hello boys.
15:44:43 <tusho> oklopol: no, I haven't spoken at google
15:45:00 <Slereah_> So I hear there's a birthday around.
15:45:08 <oklopol> tusho: just wanted to give you a birthday present
15:45:33 <Slereah_> Let's give him a lapdance.
15:45:35 <oklopol> and what better than showing you you've failed to achieve something that was a one-time chance! :)
15:45:43 <tusho> oklopol: i know, it's awesome.
15:45:50 <psygnisfive> woo! lapdances for tusho!
15:45:52 <tusho> i can go to random people on the street
15:45:54 <oklopol> yes! don't break it
15:46:01 <tusho> and show them my knowledge that I have failed to achive something that was a one-time chance
15:46:04 <tusho> and they'll be jealous,.
15:46:21 <oklopol> exactly! :)
15:46:50 <Slereah_> What was that one time chance?
15:47:02 <tusho> Speaking at google!
15:47:03 <oklopol> Slereah_: talk @ google before turning 13
15:47:05 <tusho> While I was 12
15:47:07 <oklopol> ya
15:47:21 <psygnisfive> i'd say thats more of a 365 chance thing
15:47:27 <Slereah_> What does "speaking at google" mean
15:47:31 <oklopol> psygnisfive: what?
15:47:37 <psygnisfive> well
15:47:42 <psygnisfive> if you could only give one talk a day
15:47:45 <oklopol> Slereah_: not specified, but by any definition he failed
15:47:47 <psygnisfive> youve got atleast 365 days!
15:48:08 <Slereah_> THE GOOGLE, THEY DO NOTHING
15:48:12 <oklopol> psygnisfive: one-time chance in life, you can't retry it once you've failed
15:48:19 <oklopol> onless you succeed
15:48:21 <psygnisfive> sure you can
15:48:21 <oklopol> *unless
15:48:26 <oklopol> can you ?
15:48:29 <psygnisfive> if youve failed on the first day of youre 12th year
15:48:29 <oklopol> well
15:48:30 <tusho> psygnisfive: i can't be 12 again
15:48:33 <psygnisfive> you can try on the second day!
15:48:37 <tusho> well yes
15:48:39 <tusho> but now i'm 13.
15:48:39 <psygnisfive> :p
15:48:40 <tusho> not 12.
15:48:46 <oklopol> you haven't failed if they don't let you talk, you've failed when you turn 13
15:48:50 <psygnisfive> yes, now youve failed 365 times.
15:48:54 <psygnisfive> actually
15:48:54 <tusho> oklopol: exactly
15:49:01 <psygnisfive> youve failed once for every day before you turned 13
15:49:02 <tusho> if (age==13 && !talk) fail;
15:49:03 <psygnisfive> !
15:49:05 <tusho> no, psygnisfive
15:49:07 <tusho> if (age==13 && !talk) fail;
15:49:21 <psygnisfive> thats you had 12 whole years
15:49:22 <Slereah_> Now do it in BF!
15:49:24 <psygnisfive> and you WASTED them!
15:49:25 <oklopol> well, on the other hand i like psygnisfive's, an infinite set of failures is a better birthday present surely!
15:49:41 <psygnisfive> not even countably infinite!
15:49:55 <oklopol> oh btw, did i forget to mention i'm disconnecting in 5 seconds? i'm sure i mentioned it.
15:49:56 <oklopol> byw
15:49:58 <oklopol> bye
15:50:00 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )").
15:50:06 <Slereah_> Well, technically
15:50:10 <Slereah_> A set of days is countable
15:50:15 <psygnisfive> yes
15:50:18 <psygnisfive> but not a set of moments~
15:50:27 <Slereah_> Depends on the nature of time
15:50:39 <Slereah_> It could be granular
15:50:41 <psygnisfive> presume its non-discrete
15:51:03 <psygnisfive> then its the same size as the reals!
15:51:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, your 3dsp do have a bug though
15:52:07 <AnMaster> transform() prints out stuff
15:52:13 <AnMaster> probably left over from debugging
15:53:19 * Slereah_ can't stop listening to the Freddy Pharkas song D:
15:57:04 <oerjan> happy birthday to you, happy birthday to yooou, happy birthday to tuuuuushooo, happy birthday to yooou
15:57:46 <Slereah_> 13 years old. That's probably legal in some country, isn't it?
15:58:03 <tusho> Yes.
15:58:04 <tusho> Japan.
15:58:20 <tusho> oerjan: that's a bit traditional for #esoteric, don't you think?
15:58:35 <Slereah_> Maybe we should sing 99 bottles of beer instead.
15:59:10 <oerjan> i thought there would have to be a reason why no one else did so already
15:59:24 <oerjan> but i'm old enough for it, so there!
15:59:31 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/99%20Turing.txt
15:59:33 <Slereah_> Here tusho
15:59:42 <Slereah_> Have this 99 bottles of beer program on a Turing machine.
15:59:43 <psygnisfive> netherlands too
15:59:53 <psygnisfive> tusho, lets hang out.
15:59:55 <psygnisfive> in the netherlands
16:00:16 <oerjan> i think the netherlands case is - peculiar
16:00:28 <tusho> It's dash peculiar?
16:00:41 <Slereah_> Minus peculiar
16:01:02 <oerjan> as in, it's not actually legal, just it won't be prosecuted unless someone with the right to reports it
16:01:20 <psygnisfive> dude
16:01:23 <psygnisfive> thats the netherlands
16:01:28 <psygnisfive> nothing is legal there
16:01:34 <psygnisfive> but they dont prosecute you
16:01:39 <psygnisfive> infact
16:01:41 <oerjan> same as with pot i guess...
16:01:49 <psygnisfive> the high courts said that while drugs aren't book legal
16:01:56 <psygnisfive> they're de facto legal, due to nonenforcement
16:02:05 <psygnisfive> and that makes them genuinely legal
16:02:25 <psygnisfive> so the high courts basically said if the books contradict common practice, the books are wrong.
16:02:45 <tusho> so
16:02:50 <tusho> if we suddenly raped everyone in netherlands
16:02:52 <tusho> it'd be legal?
16:03:05 <psygnisfive> if it wasnt prosecuted!
16:03:58 <oerjan> the mind boggles.  boggle, mind, boggle.  see the mind boggle.
16:04:16 <Slereah_> How would you rape everyone in the Netherlands?
16:04:17 * tusho boggles oerjan's mind
16:04:20 <tusho> IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
16:04:21 <Slereah_> It would take decades!
16:04:29 <tusho> Slereah_: Not if we used jews.
16:04:33 <oerjan> i wonder if boggle is some actual game, it sounds like it
16:04:44 <psygnisfive> ..
16:04:45 <psygnisfive> it is
16:04:52 <psygnisfive> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boggle
16:04:55 <oerjan> tusho: i think you are now a felon in germany
16:05:08 <tusho> oerjan: coooooooooooool
16:05:13 * tusho felons germany
16:05:15 <tusho> IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN
16:05:23 * oerjan thinks he knows
16:06:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does CCBI pass Mike's 3DSP test?
16:06:09 <oerjan> i was more hoping for a game involving big balls
16:06:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah hm it doesn't
16:06:32 <AnMaster> interesting
16:06:36 <AnMaster> so is that test buggy
16:06:40 <oerjan> boccia, bowling, while not boggle
16:06:40 <AnMaster> or is ccbi?
16:06:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because now I'm unable to check that cfunge is correct
16:07:23 <AnMaster> for ccbi I get: BAD: N on (4 5 6) did not produce (.455 .569 .683)
16:07:35 <oerjan> that boccia article on wikipedia is weird
16:07:36 <AnMaster> that doesn't happen for cfunge, though it was just translated straight off
16:08:36 <oerjan> only disabled persons are allowed to play
16:08:50 <Slereah_> That's so unfair
16:09:00 <Slereah_> I could probably outrun people with no legs
16:09:05 <Slereah_> They're just afraid
16:09:14 <tusho> [16:06:10] <oerjan> i was more hoping for a game involving big balls
16:09:15 <tusho> hur hur hur
16:09:18 <AnMaster> oh I see rounding issues
16:09:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: because of... yeah, that
16:09:45 <Deewiant> i.e. he tests for equality with floating point
16:09:49 <Deewiant> which is stupid and evil
16:09:53 <AnMaster> I get some GOOD that I get BAD on when I change to double
16:10:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also as GCC says "warning: comparing floating point with == or != is unsafe"
16:10:07 <AnMaster> yet you do that :P
16:10:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: where
16:10:22 <AnMaster> in to2D()
16:10:38 <oerjan> tusho: i claim to have intended both meanings
16:10:41 <Deewiant> ah yeah
16:10:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess you shouldn't?
16:10:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: but that makes some degree of sense
16:11:00 <Deewiant> if it's 0.00000000000001 it's fine
16:11:03 <Deewiant> if it's 0, it's not
16:11:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 0 can be accurately represented in IEEE 754 floating point
16:11:19 <AnMaster> well how to get rid of the gcc warning then
16:11:22 <AnMaster> :/
16:11:24 <Deewiant> I don't know
16:11:27 <AnMaster> oh well
16:11:29 <Deewiant> GCC is often wrong
16:11:45 <oerjan> aha, i was confusing with bocce which is what i was actually thinking of
16:12:22 <oerjan> (confusingly in some languages that is called boccia)
16:14:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does it make sense to use double internally instead of float?
16:14:27 <Deewiant> why not
16:14:31 <AnMaster> ok
16:15:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you said "hand unrolled loops" so I guessed speed was important, but obviously I'm not that speed crazy :P
16:15:09 <AnMaster> (floats are faster than double iirc)
16:15:37 <Deewiant> TBH it might just be because it's easier to write the two cases by hand than to write a generic function like I did
16:16:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, using double internally makes it all GOOD.. sigh
16:16:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: this is exactly why Mycology is fully UNDEF for FPSP/FPDP
16:16:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed
16:16:57 <AnMaster> you could use epsilon when comparing though?
16:17:02 <AnMaster> may be hard in befunge heh
16:17:06 <Deewiant> yes but exactly
16:17:10 <Deewiant> it'd be too much of a pain
16:17:18 <Deewiant> easier to just print them out and have the user worry
16:21:13 <tusho> [[but obviously I'm not that speed crazy ]]
16:21:15 <tusho> hope this is a joke
16:25:30 <AnMaster> tusho, why? I prefer stability and maintainability over speed unless it is really needed
16:25:38 <tusho> ha ha ha
16:25:44 <AnMaster> don't optimize in advance, only optimize after you see it is needed with profiling
16:25:47 <tusho> hahahahhah
16:26:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, are you going to send a mail about 3DSP docs missing the matrix in funge space thing or should I do it?
16:26:55 <AnMaster> and please mention that comparing using == is bad to him
16:26:59 <Deewiant> you can do it
16:27:04 <Deewiant> I've told him of both
16:27:18 <asiekierka> Great, i need a cheap way to animate... by hand
16:27:32 <asiekierka> No, NOT, NOT and NOT flash.
16:27:39 <tusho> Flash.
16:27:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm ok
16:27:42 <asiekierka> Flash isn't "hand-animated".
16:27:45 <asiekierka> Ok
16:27:47 <tusho> Yes it is if you import the images.
16:27:47 <asiekierka> Give me flash
16:27:48 <asiekierka> On paper
16:27:53 <tusho> 1. Draw
16:27:54 <AnMaster> flash sucks
16:27:55 <tusho> 2. Import to flash
16:27:56 <asiekierka> I can do this for a GIF too
16:27:57 <tusho> 3. New frame
16:27:58 <tusho> 4. Repeat.
16:28:03 <asiekierka> and GIFs are MOAR COMPATIBLEZ
16:28:09 <tusho> asiekierka: Flash can export to a GIF.
16:28:14 <tusho> Alternatively, flipbook.
16:28:16 <AnMaster> asiekierka, flash is unportable
16:28:17 <asiekierka> Also, every frame drawn takes a lot
16:28:23 <asiekierka> of time
16:28:27 <asiekierka> I'd like to just have one frame
16:28:32 <asiekierka> and modify it every while or so
16:28:32 <tusho> Also ignore AnMaster because he can't deal with any technology that is propeitary.
16:28:34 <asiekierka> A part of it
16:28:38 <asiekierka> And pencil sucks
16:28:40 <tusho> Flash can export to GIFs.
16:28:43 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you want some vector graphics then
16:28:43 <tusho> And the GIF patent has expired.
16:28:52 <asiekierka> YAY, THE GIF PATENT EXPIRED!
16:28:57 <AnMaster> asiekierka, flash doesn't run on 64-bit linux
16:28:57 <tusho> Uh, yeah. In 2003.
16:29:02 <tusho> AnMaster: BUT GIFS DO.
16:29:03 <asiekierka> YAY
16:29:05 <AnMaster> tusho, indeed
16:29:07 <tusho> And Flash the creation software can export to GIFs.
16:29:10 <AnMaster> asiekierka, well that is old news
16:29:15 <tusho> Ergo your only argument against flash is that it isn't FOSS.
16:29:16 <Deewiant> APNG!
16:29:25 <asiekierka> I wanted to use something like, limited animation
16:29:25 <tusho> Deewiant: 'cos that's so well supported :)
16:29:28 <AnMaster> of course the flash creation software isn't free
16:29:30 <asiekierka> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_animation
16:29:34 <AnMaster> last I looked you needed to pay for it
16:29:40 <asiekierka> <tusho> Download it overnight. And google for a serial key.
16:29:41 <asiekierka> <tusho> :p
16:29:49 <Deewiant> tusho: yeah, or MNG!
16:29:57 <tusho> Deewiant: brilliant!
16:30:07 <tusho> use a flipbook
16:30:09 <tusho> and stream it on a webcam
16:30:12 <tusho> be there 24-7
16:30:13 <tusho> flipping it
16:30:15 <tusho> or better
16:30:17 <tusho> make a robot to flip it
16:30:18 <asiekierka> Forget about it
16:30:21 <asiekierka> Yeah
16:30:24 <asiekierka> but that costs too much
16:30:28 <asiekierka> It's cheaper to buy a whiteboard
16:30:31 <asiekierka> And draw on THAT
16:30:39 <asiekierka> Or a blackboard
16:30:39 <asiekierka> even
16:30:44 <tusho> flipbooks are .... just pieces of paper :P
16:30:48 <asiekierka> Yeah
16:30:55 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
16:31:00 <tusho> a flipping robot might cost a lot to build though.
16:31:13 <AnMaster> MNG sounds like a good idea
16:31:16 <asiekierka> Yeah
16:31:17 <asiekierka> The easiest way to go is get a whiteboard
16:31:18 <asiekierka> actually
16:31:33 <asiekierka> And a tripod to mount a (web)cam on
16:31:35 <tusho> AnMaster: and has like 45793495739455345345% market penetration in the form of software support!
16:31:36 <tusho> totally!
16:31:56 <AnMaster> tusho, messed up signed and unsigned? :P
16:32:00 <AnMaster> or how did it get that high
16:32:04 -!- oerjan has quit ("-> Omnibus").
16:32:12 <tusho> AnMaster: It's an open standard.
16:32:15 <AnMaster> last I checked 0-100 was the valid range~
16:32:16 <asiekierka> Yeah, now i wonder how much a whiteboard costs
16:32:16 <tusho> Mere laws of logic don't apply, right?
16:32:40 <asiekierka> I wonder how much a white/blackboard costs
16:32:58 <psygnisfive> tusho: i'd like to penetrate your market
16:33:06 <tusho> psygnisfive: If I know what you mean?
16:34:52 <psygnisfive> i always try to envision that being said by ainsley harriott
16:34:53 <asiekierka> Also
16:34:54 <asiekierka> a question
16:35:18 <AnMaster> tusho, doesn't firefox support MNG? Safari?
16:35:44 <AnMaster> IE doesn't support anything really, it even needed a plugin for svg last I checked...
16:35:54 <asiekierka> What's the cheapest way to do animation with erasing and without pencils, while noting i have a High-Defition and a Standard-Definition camera? (i mean, 2 cameras, one is HD, one is SD)
16:36:01 <psygnisfive> i dont get how someone can good so quickly D:
16:36:16 <psygnisfive> it takes me forever to cook :(
16:36:17 <tusho> AnMaster: Whatever. It's silly to use it.
16:36:25 <tusho> GIFs are widely supported and now patentless.
16:36:28 <tusho> Unfortunately 256 colours
16:36:28 <tusho> .
16:36:30 <tusho> But bah.
16:36:42 <AnMaster> 256 colours is a good reason to use something else
16:36:44 <AnMaster> that is MNG
16:36:53 <asiekierka> hello?
16:36:57 <AnMaster> if you got few colors gif is fine
16:37:04 <tusho> Deewiant: I don't think we should make jokes like that again
16:37:04 <asiekierka> I'm thinking about either a chalkboard or a whiteboard
16:37:09 <tusho> AnMaster repeats them but seriously
16:37:25 <AnMaster> tusho, eh?
16:46:37 <asiekierka> Hello?
16:46:51 <asiekierka> I'm wondering, whether a chalk- or a whiteboard
16:50:22 <asiekierka> Ok
16:50:30 <asiekierka> I should get a chalkboard
16:50:58 <asiekierka> Tusho: Better cook up your copy of flash, you need an animated milkweasal!
16:51:09 <psygnisfive> *boards feel very.. proper
16:51:14 <psygnisfive> and academic
16:51:14 <psygnisfive> :D
16:51:24 * tusho eyes his pirated Adobe CS3 icons
16:51:30 * tusho clicks 'Fl'
16:51:40 * tusho watches 'Fl' bounce up and down in dock
16:51:41 <asiekierka> And i hope it'll have some... ACTION
16:51:49 <tusho> No, things will just kind of fall apart.
16:51:54 <asiekierka> Mine may be something about Portal :P
16:52:10 <asiekierka> Asiekierka's Portal Obsession Strikes Again 2: It Strikes Again!
17:11:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there?
17:12:10 <Deewiant> yep
17:12:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm not sure if I missed it or funktio never replied, he said that fixing for your least point test was easy, but did he ever say what he did?
17:13:14 <Deewiant> I don't think he replied
17:13:18 <AnMaster> hm
17:13:28 * AnMaster pokes funktio then
17:17:16 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:17:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, interesting why would mycology lock up at:
17:17:41 <AnMaster>         That the delta of the IP was ( -1 0 )
17:17:41 <AnMaster>         That the offset of the IP was ( 0 0 )
17:17:41 <AnMaster> ^C
17:17:43 <fungot> Host not found.
17:17:51 <AnMaster> err what
17:17:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, ^
17:18:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't know
17:18:57 <AnMaster> hm
17:22:13 <AnMaster> ok somehow wrapping is broken when I tried to fix the loading coordinate issue...
17:24:15 <tusho> Who's funktio.
17:24:36 <AnMaster> author of some befunge-98 interpreter coded in haskell
17:24:37 <tusho> Apart from being the genre of music funk, the ex-Agoran player t, and input-output itself.
17:27:27 <Deewiant> also the leading finnish project euler contestant: http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=scores&country=Finland
17:27:28 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:27:48 <tusho> wow
17:27:48 <tusho> :)
17:28:06 <tusho> i googled his realname - as you do - and found something about rubik's cube championships
17:28:07 <tusho> :P
17:28:13 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:28:17 <Deewiant> yep, he's like that
17:28:22 <tusho> http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/node/391
17:28:29 <tusho> 14 seconds :P
17:28:37 <AnMaster> project euler?
17:28:43 <tusho> http://funktio.awardspace.com/index.pl tada
17:28:49 <tusho> AnMaster: he even provided a GODDAMN LINK
17:28:55 <AnMaster> ah
17:28:55 <tusho> couldn't you have CLICKED IT and READ?
17:28:57 <tusho> :|
17:29:02 <tusho> jeez!
17:29:05 <tusho> and don't say it's too far up
17:29:09 <tusho> he said it exactly when he said euler
17:29:57 <AnMaster> hm he is certainly a math nerd it seems
17:30:00 <Deewiant> evidently he's a few seconds faster than teemu, a friend of mine
17:30:01 <AnMaster> nothing wrong with that
17:30:21 <AnMaster> tusho, btw: http://funktio.awardspace.com/misc/hsfunge/
17:30:50 <tusho> cool,
17:30:57 <tusho> apparently he's designed levels for Enigma
17:30:58 <tusho> I like that game
17:31:00 <tusho> even though I suck at it
17:31:12 <AnMaster> the game Enigma, sounds familiar...
17:31:16 <AnMaster> a black ball?
17:31:29 <AnMaster> that you roll around?
17:31:40 -!- Dmitry_Medvedev has joined.
17:31:46 <AnMaster> to hit certain matching boxes
17:31:50 <AnMaster> tusho, is that it?
17:31:54 <AnMaster> or is that something else?
17:31:58 <tusho> yes
17:32:01 <tusho> pretty much
17:32:06 <tusho> FOSS, too
17:32:17 <AnMaster> yes I remember playing it a few years ago
17:32:28 <AnMaster> not my type of game though
17:32:52 <AnMaster> hum
17:33:12 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
17:33:20 <AnMaster> I don't get this bug, it is clearly an off by one bug, but it seems wrong the way mycology wants it
17:33:28 <tusho> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXbS8PuPGic funktio solving a 3x3x3 rubiks cube one-handed in 21 seconds
17:33:31 <tusho> the wonders of google
17:33:38 <AnMaster> basically I need to do:
17:33:39 <AnMaster> fspace.bottomRightCorner.x++;
17:33:40 <AnMaster> fspace.bottomRightCorner.y++;
17:33:42 <AnMaster> after loading a file
17:33:46 <AnMaster> and I can't figure out why
17:33:54 <AnMaster> it makes no sense
17:33:59 -!- Dmitry_Medvedev has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:34:41 <AnMaster> tusho, one-handed?
17:34:43 <AnMaster> wtf
17:34:44 <tusho> AnMaster: yes
17:34:52 <tusho> watch it, oh wait you probably don't have flash installed
17:34:59 <tusho> sucks to be you i guess
17:34:59 <AnMaster> I can use mplayer
17:35:00 <funktio> that's an old video
17:35:04 <AnMaster> :P
17:35:23 <tusho> funktio: it looks like you sped it up with an editor :P
17:35:52 <AnMaster> I agree with tusho
17:35:56 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:35:59 <funktio> I've done 21.80 in an official competition
17:36:00 <tusho> hi ais523
17:36:03 <funktio> http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2007LAIR01
17:36:05 <tusho> but the meter thing shows the right time
17:36:06 <tusho> so :)
17:36:14 <AnMaster> hi ais523, there may be some breaking changes in cfunge soon, just a warning
17:36:40 <ais523> hi tusho
17:36:42 <ais523> and you win
17:36:44 <AnMaster> ais523, basically FUNGEDATATYPE will be renamed to fungeCell
17:36:49 <tusho> ais523: o rly :P
17:37:14 <AnMaster> and FungeSpaceLoadString() that you use will take (char *, size_t length_of_string) as parameters
17:37:24 <ais523> AnMaster: ok; is that the sort of change that could easily be fixed by a #define?
17:37:25 <AnMaster> ais523, this will happen within the next few days
17:37:32 <AnMaster> ais523, not the latter one
17:37:43 <ais523> the latter one's pretty easy as I know the string's length at compile time
17:38:00 <AnMaster> anyway first I need to track down a tricky bug
17:38:03 <AnMaster> that makes no sense
17:39:31 -!- asiekierka has joined.
17:40:24 <asiekierka> Screeble TV :P
17:40:37 <asiekierka> I wonder whether to set up a camera audition
17:40:47 <asiekierka> transmitting my screebles LIVEW
17:40:49 <asiekierka> LIVE*
17:43:45 <asiekierka> Yay, i'll get a chalkboard tommorow... maybe.
17:44:09 <asiekierka> Depends if i can set a Sony Handycam camera to serve as a stop-motion recorder (yes, it can do photos)
17:46:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: Er, that was the strange.
17:46:45 <fizzie> ^C
17:46:45 <fungot> Host not found.
17:46:49 <fizzie> What.
17:46:57 <fizzie> ^what
17:46:57 <fungot> Host not found.
17:46:59 <fizzie> ...
17:46:59 <AnMaster> hm
17:47:08 <AnMaster> it is a wrapping issue
17:47:11 <AnMaster> of some sort
17:47:13 <fizzie> That URL lookup should only happen in ^def http:// thing.
17:47:15 <AnMaster> but it makes no sense
17:47:43 <AnMaster> BAD: should have been ( 180 795 )
17:47:45 <AnMaster> ok
17:47:50 <AnMaster> that doesn't match however
17:48:49 <funktio> AnMaster: apparently irssi isn't hilighting unless my nick is the first word on the line
17:49:06 <funktio> AnMaster: I use a Map (like a hash) for storing the funge space
17:49:14 <fizzie> Oh, I've somehow lost the < that moves the control flow back when it reaches the end of ^def command list without finding a match.
17:49:16 <AnMaster> funktio, I use a hash array too
17:49:19 <AnMaster> but that isn't the issue
17:49:29 <AnMaster> the issue is some freaking off-by-one error in the bounds
17:49:51 <AnMaster> well to be exact I use a hash array with {x, y} as key
17:49:52 <fizzie> So the control flow goes right through the space in the comment "restore args" and just happens to hit the < pointing to the hostname lookup in the http:// URL handler above.
17:50:07 <fizzie> ^reload
17:50:08 <fungot> Reloaded.
17:50:10 <fizzie> ^C
17:50:11 <fungot> Host not found.
17:50:25 <fizzie> Oh, wait, I forgot also to copy the code to the chroot jail.
17:50:25 <AnMaster> didn't help?
17:50:38 <fizzie> ^reload
17:50:41 <fungot> Reloaded.
17:50:43 <fizzie> ^C
17:50:55 <fizzie> Well, that seems to have done the trick.
17:51:03 <funktio> yes, I use (x,y) as keys, too
17:51:20 <funktio> spaces aren't stored, and if a cell is set to a space, it's deleted
17:51:51 <tusho> funktio: fungot here is a befunge bot
17:51:52 <tusho> if you didn't know
17:52:07 <AnMaster> funktio, same, but that isn't the issue here
17:52:08 <funktio> http://pastebin.com/d1ce0b52b
17:53:10 <funktio> the 'unzip">unzip' should be just 'unzip', not sure why it's messed up
17:53:22 <AnMaster> well I know what the issue is, I don't know why it happens though
17:53:36 <tusho> funktio: Trying to link to the docs.
17:53:37 <tusho> And failing.
17:53:44 <tusho> Look at the link target.
17:54:04 <AnMaster> the greatest point is off by one, and it affects wrapping too, which uses absolute coordinates, not relative the least point, so it is not just a conversion bug there
17:54:07 <funktio> tusho: yeah, bit it's a bit weird that other links work
17:54:10 <tusho> <a href="http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/Prelude.html#v:%3Ca%20href=" http:="" haskell.org="" ghc="" docs="" latest="" html="" libraries="" base="" prelude.html#v:unzip=""><span class="kw3">unzip</span></a>"&gt;
17:54:18 <tusho> funktio: It's the '
17:54:20 <tusho> in cells'
17:54:27 <tusho> Think it's tripping up the HTML sanitizer or whatever.
17:54:42 <funktio> something like that I guess... well, doesn't matter
17:56:31 <AnMaster> <tusho> <a href="http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/Prelude.html#v:%3Ca%20href=" http:="" haskell.org="" ghc="" docs="" latest="" html="" libraries="" base="" prelude.html#v:unzip=""><span class="kw3">unzip</span></a>"&gt; <-- wtf :P
17:56:47 <AnMaster> funktio, also I can't read haskell
17:56:56 <AnMaster> erlang, C and Bash I can do
18:00:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you have any test for y after writing to -2,-2 in funge space?
18:00:09 <AnMaster> as well as -1
18:01:22 <AnMaster> well I kind of solved the off by one issue, but I don't know why my fix works :/
18:07:36 <funktio> "< tusho> Apart from being the genre of music funk, the ex-Agoran player t, and input-output itself."   heh, it's a Finnish word: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/funktio
18:08:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: isn't the y test in mycology.b98 after writing to (-1,-1)
18:09:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes it is, but I do take the difference properly, I checked that
18:09:20 <tusho> funktio: Surprised it isn't taken everywhere.
18:09:27 <AnMaster> rect->w = fspace.bottomRightCorner.x - fspace.topLeftCorner.x;
18:09:32 <AnMaster> rect->h = fspace.bottomRightCorner.y - fspace.topLeftCorner.y;
18:09:36 <AnMaster> should be right
18:09:40 <AnMaster> except that is one too small
18:09:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't get why
18:10:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: how many numbers are there between 1 and 10 inclusive
18:10:33 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
18:10:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, inclusive? 10
18:11:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: and what is 10-1
18:11:10 <AnMaster> 9 hm ok
18:11:17 <Deewiant> so you need to add one
18:11:20 <Deewiant> fencepost error
18:11:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however that doesn't explain why I need to add +1 when going to the top cell when wrapping
18:11:56 <AnMaster> fspace.topLeftCorner.x is absolute in funge space
18:12:01 <Deewiant> well, I don't know :-P
18:12:05 <Deewiant> it's your code
18:12:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I don't know either
18:16:09 <AnMaster> bbiab food
18:17:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: btw, what funktio is doing is essentially grabbing the minimum coordinate over all funge-space cells
18:22:16 <funktio> not the most efficient way, but mycology still runs at about the same speed so I don't care
18:23:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ie, scanning the whole funge space?
18:23:41 <AnMaster> every time y is run
18:23:42 <AnMaster> well
18:23:47 <AnMaster> that is not a working solution
18:23:49 <Deewiant> every time p is run
18:23:50 <Deewiant> I think
18:23:55 <AnMaster> as you will see once you hit HRTI
18:23:59 <AnMaster> oh that is even worse then
18:24:01 <funktio> only when the cell removed could be the least point
18:24:10 <Deewiant> right, of course
18:24:22 <Deewiant> and that never happens in mycology :-)
18:24:30 <Deewiant> so it's just an extra if
18:24:32 <Deewiant> for every p
18:24:40 <AnMaster> you could optimise that a bit
18:24:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: which is essentially what the overhead of my method will be as well
18:24:49 <AnMaster> if a cell is removed and it is at a edge
18:25:27 <funktio> would be better to test whether it's at the corner
18:25:36 <AnMaster> may not be enough
18:25:38 <AnMaster> you could have
18:25:40 <AnMaster>  a
18:25:44 <AnMaster> b  c
18:25:48 <AnMaster>  d
18:26:02 <AnMaster> now if you remove b  the least point will change
18:26:08 <AnMaster> but it isn't at a corner
18:26:11 <funktio> good point
18:26:18 <AnMaster> so you need to check if it is at an edge
18:27:23 <AnMaster> anyway I'm not sure I agree with Deewiant about that you need to shrink it too
18:29:27 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:30:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway you should check greatest point too in that case
18:30:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, as I said it's not finished
18:30:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess it will be part of the main mycology?
18:30:45 <Deewiant> it will be in a file of its own, mycoedge.b98, as I also said
18:30:53 <AnMaster> oh why?
18:31:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: because for the first test, I would have to move all of mycology.b98 southeast
18:32:51 <AnMaster> ais523, the next commit will rename FUNGEDATATYPE to fungeCell and FUNGEVECTORTYPE will be removed to have just fungeCell
18:33:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: haha, that's exactly what I'm doing in my CCBI cleanup
18:33:21 <Deewiant> cellidx will be removed
18:33:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, interesting
18:34:37 <AnMaster> also fungePosition will be removed, it used to be an alias for fungeVector
18:36:05 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:41:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | #QUIT :OK GregorR, I give up.
18:42:11 <AnMaster> ais523, POKE
18:42:29 <ais523> hi AnMaster
18:42:38 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what to respond to a POKE with
18:42:43 <ais523> though
18:42:52 <Deewiant> PEEK
18:43:02 <ais523> ah, to see what it was that AnMaster POKEd?
18:43:12 <Deewiant> exactly
18:44:08 <AnMaster> brb phone
18:44:09 <AnMaster> sorry
18:49:28 <AnMaster> err I can't easily reach all cells in funge-space
18:49:37 <AnMaster> as in, I can't iterate over them easily
18:49:52 <Deewiant> uh? your hash map can't do that?
18:50:35 <Deewiant> use a tree map then ;-)
18:50:52 <AnMaster> well I can, but not in just one column or such
18:51:06 <AnMaster> and it is a hash array
18:51:32 <Deewiant> he can't do that either and yet it works well for him ;-P
18:51:34 <AnMaster> as far as it is concerned the the key is just a pointer to a memory block with some certain size
19:09:57 <asiekierka> I need help.
19:10:11 <ais523> asiekierka: what with?
19:10:29 <asiekierka> I have a Kodak Easyshare C503 and a Sony Handycam HDR-SR5E. Is there a way to make one of them work... like a webcam?
19:10:44 <ais523> asiekierka: I don't know, I've never tried
19:10:51 <asiekierka> Or at least, use it for chalkmotion?
19:10:59 <asiekierka> The only way i see
19:11:03 <asiekierka> is making a pic every time
19:11:07 <asiekierka> then mounting it at PC
19:11:08 <asiekierka> which sucks
19:11:15 <asiekierka> because you can't really see what you have
19:11:19 <asiekierka> and sorting is a REAL pain
19:11:50 <asiekierka> Yeah, Screeble: The Animation. ...Great.
19:17:09 <AnMaster> ais523, btw there may be a way to get pthreads in funge, with the new MVRS fingerprint Mike Riley is working on. MVRS stands for "Multiverse", very feral, and cfunge won't implement that
19:17:17 <AnMaster> however... efunge may at some point
19:17:44 <AnMaster> posibility to spawn separate funge spaces
19:17:49 <AnMaster> seems cool
19:17:50 <ais523> pthreads would break ick really badly if there's ever more than one thread in existence when the program returns to the main loop
19:17:54 <AnMaster> and they don't need to be async
19:18:07 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway cfunge won't implement it
19:18:11 <AnMaster> and it is very very feral
19:18:15 <AnMaster> almost as bad as TRDS
19:19:30 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway MVRS would depend on concurrent funge anyway, even if it didn't use pthreads it would use a funge-style concurrency
19:19:48 <ais523> yes
19:19:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I think TRDS would break IFFI really bad too right?
19:20:13 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not sure, I think ick itself wouldn't break but fungespace would get really confused really fast
19:20:29 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and you would have to do time jumps in intercal too XD
19:20:33 <ais523> IFFI's quite good at interacting with feral fingerprints actually
19:20:44 <AnMaster> ais523, it wouldn't manage MVRS
19:20:45 <AnMaster> ever
19:20:51 <ais523> it just ignores basically everything that goes on in fungespace apart from the position and direction of the pointer
19:21:03 <ais523> and no, with MVRS it would just be too likely to jump back into the wrong fungespace
19:21:16 <AnMaster> yeah
19:21:35 <AnMaster> ais523, the extra funge spaces could have different funge versions and different dimension count too
19:21:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:21:52 <AnMaster> for example one could be befunge-93, another trefunge-108
19:21:54 -!- puzzlet has joined.
19:24:02 <tusho> Hmm.
19:24:10 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway MVRS doesn't need to be in sync like concurrent funge, so it could allow threads which would allow using multi-core cpus better
19:24:13 <tusho> I installed fortunes-spam but fortune(1) insists it knows of no such thing.
19:24:28 <asiekierka> You know, i'm possibly going to hate making Screebles:Animathed
19:24:34 <asiekierka> That'll be a pain without a webcam
19:24:38 <asiekierka> And my budget is <100PLN
19:25:05 <asiekierka> In fact, i reserved 50 PLN
19:25:11 <asiekierka> and half of the costs goes to the chalkboard
19:25:32 <AnMaster> asiekierka, so skip doing it?
19:26:09 <asiekierka> But people need to see abstractness of Screebles in animated form
19:26:11 <asiekierka> It'll be a pain
19:26:21 <asiekierka> But it'll rock... theorethically
19:26:43 <asiekierka> I thope ith'll worketh.
19:27:10 <asiekierka> Because it'll be a pain, but that's no point. At least it's chalk and not paper, so there's no nasty eraser leftovers
19:27:19 <fizzie> tusho; You may need to use the "-o" offensivity flag, maybe.
19:27:34 <tusho> Nope, it's not even in /usr/share/games/fortunes,
19:27:36 <tusho> :\
19:28:09 <psygnisfive> ive decided that anime humans, with their big watery eyes, are a different species of human that evolved from tarsiers instead of other primates.
19:28:30 <fizzie> Well, the offensive fortune directory may differ; Debian puts those in /usr/share/games/fortunes/off, though.
19:28:46 <tusho> aha!
19:28:47 <tusho> yes
19:28:55 <tusho> thanks
19:29:26 <asiekierka> Tusho: do you consider doing an milkwea(nimated)sal?
19:29:29 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: I applaud your decision
19:29:31 <tusho> asiekierka: maybe
19:29:36 <psygnisfive> thank you! :D
19:29:37 <asiekierka> I hope you'll do it HAND-DRAWN
19:29:45 <asiekierka> Since that's 4242% harder
19:30:18 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:30:33 <asiekierka> Also, Screeble #25 was a good clue to what'll happen next
19:32:25 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
19:33:11 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> ive decided that anime humans, with their big watery eyes, are a different species of human that evolved from tarsiers instead of other primates. <-- hahha :D
19:33:19 <psygnisfive> :)
19:44:43 <tusho> psygnisfive: what about their complete lack of facial pigments
19:44:44 <tusho> huh???
19:44:48 <tusho> well, skinular pigments.
19:49:29 <asiekierka> Hey, there... IS a way to do some sort of "capturing" with a SR-5E. The only problem is that on my TV card, i only have composite and RF.
19:50:54 <psygnisfive> skinular pugments lol
19:54:13 <fizzie> Given that composite-video is the lowest common denominator of video connections, I would think the camera can output that. The specs seem to say it can output s-video and composite video, and in any case it's trivial to convert from s-video to composite. Of course the necessary cables might not be part of the standard kit.
19:59:40 <asiekierka> Sure it can
19:59:45 <asiekierka> And sure i should have the cable
19:59:49 <asiekierka> But... It's BQ
19:59:51 <asiekierka> for Bad Quality
20:00:47 <tusho> Yayyy. The website which got me over 600 diggs (and thus #1 spot) and a thread on /b/ and which ground my server to a halt with 4GB of logfiles is BACK! It is a number which you can click a button to increment and it has high scores.
20:00:58 <tusho> I think its novelty has worn off so I'm not expecting much traffic. :P
20:01:28 <ais523> tusho: have you improved the code this time round?
20:01:54 <tusho> ais523: just added a constraint in the mysql database
20:01:57 <tusho> so that duplicate usernames can't be used
20:02:35 <tusho> Fittingly, it returns on the website of the person who submitted it to digg in the first place!
20:02:47 <tusho> And who's personal website is also the third on rutian. :P http://hideou.se/counter/
20:03:22 <tusho> (Requires JS enabled.)
20:03:31 <tusho> (Obviously, how else is it gonna update that number once every .5 secs?)
20:06:17 <tusho> Eep. 5 users./
20:07:02 <ais523> domain pun?
20:07:34 <tusho> ais523: yes
20:07:37 <tusho> he also lives in sweden though
20:07:38 <ais523> clearly the other people there are using bots
20:07:40 <tusho> so it's nicely appropriate
20:07:41 <tusho> and no
20:07:43 <tusho> they're holding down the enter key
20:07:46 <ais523> ah
20:07:46 <tusho> :P
20:07:51 <ais523> I was clicking
20:08:06 <tusho> ais523: there was a botwar when it was on digg, though
20:08:12 <tusho> someone signed up with the name of their site
20:08:17 <tusho> and used a bot to spam it up to the top
20:08:21 <tusho> but they could not beat the shared 'digg' accuont
20:08:22 <tusho> *account
20:08:30 <tusho> which had like 100 people on at once
20:08:31 <ais523> tusho: that ajax library is out of date, it'll cause spurious security warnings on IE7
20:08:32 <tusho> with scripts and stuff
20:08:42 <tusho> ais523: yea, whatever, it's like a year and a half since I touched that code
20:09:01 <ais523> you have to check for XMLHttpRequest first on IE7 to avoid them
20:09:46 <tusho> okay everyone's stopped cheating now
20:09:46 <tusho> :P
20:09:48 <tusho> i think.
20:10:53 <tusho> ais523: this actually inserts a database row for each click
20:11:00 <ais523> oh dear
20:11:04 <tusho> it wasn't a problem until it was getting 150 clicks every .5 seconds
20:11:05 <tusho> 8)
20:11:13 <tusho> even then the thing that killed it was a 4gb apache logfile
20:11:14 <ais523> couldn't it just update database rows instead?
20:11:23 <tusho> ais523: no, it logs the date and time
20:11:26 <tusho> for future statistical purposes
20:11:30 <tusho> that were never utilized
20:12:06 <tusho> oh, look.
20:12:07 <tusho> it's over 9000.
20:12:49 * ais523 writes a scirpt
20:12:53 <tusho> ais523: aww
20:12:58 <tusho> but you complained of the cheaters!
20:13:05 <ais523> no, I wasn't really complaining
20:13:06 <tusho> :P
20:13:10 <tusho> oh well
20:13:12 <tusho> script wars are fun
20:13:16 <ais523> it's a one-liner in the Epiphany address bar
20:13:27 <tusho> yes
20:13:30 <tusho> people were posting 'em all over digg
20:13:33 <tusho> i lol'd a bit
20:13:41 <tusho> oh, and at one point
20:13:45 <tusho> I added a decrement button
20:13:47 <tusho> and added a mesage
20:13:49 <tusho> *message
20:13:52 <tusho> keep it at 0 for 10 seconds
20:13:57 <tusho> turns out people don't read on the internet :D
20:14:46 <ais523> tusho: ha, I'm beating you now
20:15:21 <ais523> incidentally, how secure are the passwords on that thing?
20:15:27 <ais523> I used a really insecure one just in case
20:15:37 <tusho> relatively secure
20:15:45 * tusho checks
20:15:45 <tusho> sha1
20:15:47 <tusho> unsalted
20:16:02 <tusho> ok, people are complaining about the cheating
20:16:04 <tusho> ais523: could you stop
20:16:11 <ais523> ok
20:16:24 <ais523> clearly holding down return is suboptimal
20:16:30 <ais523> feel free to reduce my score, anyway
20:16:41 <ais523> javascript: var i=1000; while(i--) increment_counter(); void(0);
20:16:46 <ais523> (change the 1000 to taste)
20:17:01 <tusho> ok
20:17:04 <tusho> I'ma reset the whole thing
20:17:13 <ais523> tusho: add a CAPTCHA
20:17:16 <ais523> to get rid of scripts
20:17:25 <tusho> that'd slow down way too much
20:17:33 <ais523> yes, I was being ironic
20:17:35 <tusho> oh
20:17:36 <tusho> :P
20:18:43 -!- Vampire_Squif has joined.
20:18:43 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:19:25 <tusho> I reset it
20:19:29 <tusho> 'cause it got really unbalanced
20:19:30 <tusho> cause of cheating
20:19:45 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:21:52 -!- Vampire_Squif has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:22:15 <tusho> ok which popular website of mine to revive next
20:22:16 <tusho> STORYGEN!
20:23:00 -!- Vampire_Squif has joined.
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20:27:20 <tusho> Hmm.
20:27:25 <tusho> 12,600.
20:27:27 <dogface_> So, the Hideous Counter.
20:27:27 <tusho> Not bad.
20:27:30 <tusho> dogface_: Yes.
20:27:39 <tusho> Hmm, you're #7.
20:27:40 <tusho> I didn't notice.
20:27:42 <dogface_> Am I required to actually click many times?
20:27:57 <tusho> dogface_: Yes, I don't think anyone's holding enter key atm.
20:27:57 <ais523> I posted a script to get a massive score to the channel
20:28:00 <ais523> but tusho told me not to
20:28:00 <tusho> And I'd rather keep it that way.
20:28:08 <tusho> 'Cause it's more fun with actual clicks.
20:28:17 <ais523> tusho: you could make it static text not a button
20:28:20 <ais523> then pressing return wouldn't work
20:28:25 <dogface_> If you insist. :-)
20:28:34 <tusho> I could. I kind of fall-back to the honor system for silly things like this, though :P
20:28:37 <tusho> The original version had no ajax
20:28:40 <tusho> so holding enter didn't work
20:28:42 <tusho> as it would unfocus the next load
20:30:31 <dogface_> javascript:while 1 increment_counter();
20:31:10 <tusho> dogface_: Don't.
20:31:19 <tusho> I'll just reset your account to 0.
20:31:20 <tusho> :P
20:31:37 <dogface_> I've already cheated by using the enter key; this will let me have some fun. :-P
20:31:46 <dogface_> Have some fun before getting reset, or something.
20:32:29 <tusho> dogface_: I know that you can cheat like that.
20:32:32 <tusho> But it's rather pointless.
20:34:12 <dogface_> javascript:while 1 {alert("How annoying!"); increment_counter()};
20:34:27 <tusho> dogface_: That's essentially the counter, but with the button in the chrome :P
20:34:30 <tusho> Also, ITYM while(1)
20:35:22 <dogface_> Yeah.
20:35:52 <dogface_> So, um, now what.
20:36:10 <dogface_> Oh, that was easy.
20:37:21 <dogface_> Why is there a # in front of the QUIT :OK GregorR, I give up?
20:37:56 <tusho> What OK gregorr I give up?
20:39:07 <tusho> Ho hum. Anya now have 5500 clicks.
20:39:36 <tusho> *has
20:40:01 <ais523> tusho: it isn't counting all my clicks
20:40:11 <tusho> Really?
20:40:13 <tusho> What do you mean?
20:40:23 <ais523> if I click twice very quickly my counter only goes up 1
20:40:32 <ais523> say, a double-click on the button
20:40:37 <tusho> ais523: and then in .5 seconds, it goes up one again
20:40:38 <dogface_> tusho: in the topic.
20:40:39 <tusho> watch it carefully
20:40:41 <ais523> maybe the OS only sends one submit for a double-click
20:40:53 <tusho> that seems likely
20:40:58 <tusho> ais523: try clicking 3 times
20:41:08 <dogface_> ais523: I guess you'll have to javascript:while(1) increment_counter(); to compensate.
20:41:43 <ais523> tusho: 3 clicks and 4 clicks both increase 1
20:41:49 <ais523> the fifth click increases by 2 though
20:41:51 <tusho> ais523: It must be your OS. It works absolutely fine here
20:41:54 <ais523> yes
20:41:57 <ais523> but it rather spoils the game
20:42:09 <tusho> Hmm,.
20:42:17 <tusho> ais523: I'll add in some test code just for your user
20:42:39 <asiekierka> What should i make in the first Screebles: The Animathion?
20:42:49 <ais523> tusho: I was clicking as fast as possible and it was going up 2 for every 3 clicks
20:42:51 <ais523> which is weird
20:43:19 <tusho> ais523: refresh
20:43:20 <tusho> and click
20:43:24 <tusho> it should alert for each click
20:43:27 <tusho> (double click it0
20:44:07 <ais523> double-click is plus-one, no alerts anywhere
20:44:19 <tusho> Hmm, that is odd.
20:44:28 -!- Vampire_Squif has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:44:49 <tusho> ais523, hard-refresh
20:44:51 <tusho> and look at the code
20:44:53 <tusho> in increment_counter
20:44:56 <tusho> doesn't it have an alert?
20:45:32 <ais523> no, it doesn't
20:45:33 <dogface_> I'd like to see a cute-little-web-game of this sort where it only awards you once for each IP address you connect from.
20:45:36 <ais523> maybe my hard refresh is failing
20:45:45 <ais523> dogface_: proxy wars!
20:45:49 <ais523> although I would like that, yes
20:45:53 <ais523> that would be so much more interesting
20:46:05 <dogface_> The number of points you get from each IP address is inversely proportional to the number of users who have gotten that IP address.
20:46:39 <tusho> heh, that would be fun
20:46:59 <tusho> it'd be trivial for digg though
20:47:07 <tusho> just make everyone login
20:47:08 <tusho> and voila
20:47:42 <dogface_> Also award 256 points total for the first three blocks, 65536 points total for the first two, 16777216 points total for the first one, and 4294967296 points total for connecting at all. Or something like that, obviously.
20:47:53 <dogface_> Split among all those who connect from whatever, of course.
20:48:11 <dogface_> So get coding, tusho. :-)
20:48:11 <tusho> ais523 I'm fixing it
20:48:18 <tusho> And maybe laterdogface_ :P
20:50:11 <asiekierka> Also, what do you think about an animated screeble
20:50:37 <ais523> tusho: make passwords unshareable somehow
20:50:46 <tusho> that's impossible
20:50:48 <ais523> like use a fingerprint scanner or something
20:50:51 <tusho> heh
20:51:07 <dogface_> Comics are rarely animated, it seems. 21st Century Fox uses it sparingly.
20:51:23 <dogface_> Make it so that users can only connect from a single IP address! Oh, wait.
20:51:36 <asiekierka> ...dogface, screebles aren't meant to be comics.
20:52:04 <tusho> ais523
20:52:05 <tusho> refresh
20:52:17 <asiekierka> They are meant to be more, 25% comics, 35% abstractyness, 40% doodles
20:52:22 <tusho> Now I just have to make the button text unselectable
20:52:22 <asiekierka> :P
20:52:31 * dogface_ nods
20:53:08 <asiekierka> So, is it a good idea, now that you know the proportions of Screebles
20:53:31 <dogface_> I think it would be a good idea, yes.
20:53:53 <dogface_> The people who get the most points will probably be... oh, how about the people who write viruses that log in as them, thereby giving them nice bits of IP address. :-P
20:54:07 <asiekierka> Yeah, but on a chalkboard... Eh, i don't want to invest on the project, so i keep the budget very low
20:54:16 <tusho> ais523: does it work now
20:54:21 <tusho> also how can I stop selecting the button text it's distracting
20:54:22 <tusho> :P
20:54:26 <ais523> tusho: no idea, I stopped trying it a while ago
20:54:30 <tusho> well try again?
20:54:38 <ais523> why? it's a pointless website
20:54:46 <ais523> but ok
20:54:59 <tusho> Oh my god.
20:55:02 <tusho> BeatlesLover has 10k.
20:55:12 <ais523> going up at about 8 a second
20:55:21 <ais523> that's slower than most scripts, but still suspicious
20:55:27 <ais523> holding down enter probably
20:55:35 <tusho> Nah, he's crazy enough to actually click.
20:55:53 <ais523> also there are no alerts in the source except in the ajax stuff
20:55:57 <tusho> (A bit of background: He has crazy OCD, and claimed he was from Hawaii for about 2 years until he admitted that he was actually from Pensyllvannia (sp.))
20:55:58 <tusho> and yes
20:56:00 <tusho> I removed the alerts
20:56:00 <tusho> ais
20:56:03 <tusho> it's not a real button anymore
20:56:04 <tusho> it's a span
20:56:06 <tusho> with an onclick
20:56:16 <ais523> using CSS for the button effect?
20:56:23 <tusho> yep
20:56:34 <tusho> only problem is that double clicking selects its text
20:56:36 <tusho> which is distracting
20:56:39 <tusho> but i'm not sure how to fix it
20:56:44 <asiekierka> dogface?
20:57:05 <dogface_> asiekierka?
20:57:12 <ais523> same results as before, single click ... quadruple click all increase by 1 total, quintuple click increases by 2
20:58:14 <psygnisfive> so tusho
20:58:17 <psygnisfive> whatd you get for your birthday
20:58:22 -!- dogface_ has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | #QUIT :OK GregorR, I give up | http://hideou.se/counter/, but that link will be erased the next time someone says "optbot!".
20:58:25 <asiekierka> dogface: I wonder if doing a Screeble on a chalkboard is a good idea, counting on that i want to keep a low budget for the project, or do you have another, better material idea that's not making any graphics on a pc
20:58:27 <tusho> ais523: I can't do anything then
20:58:37 <asiekierka> as in, an animathed screeble
20:59:04 <ais523> optbot: maybe you should preserve everything before the last | in the topic
20:59:05 <optbot> ais523: because no infix ambiguousness
21:00:56 <dogface_> tusho, how inconvenient for you would it be to delete a user? :-P
21:01:07 <tusho> Whom?
21:01:20 <dogface_> Surely it doesn't depend on the user.
21:01:28 <tusho> Lemme guess.
21:01:30 <tusho> BeatlesLover?
21:01:34 <tusho> He's stopped at 12345.
21:01:36 <tusho> How typical.
21:01:54 <ais523> tusho: my script would have stopped at 12345 if you hadn't made me stop it earlier
21:02:01 <tusho> ais523: except he's a human
21:02:22 <dogface_> Let me try that again.
21:02:40 <dogface_> tusho, how inconvenient for you would it be to delete a user who's obviously cheating??
21:02:49 <tusho> dogface_: Not at all.
21:02:50 <tusho> Who is it?
21:02:56 <dogface_> That's good. >:-)
21:02:57 <tusho> Ah.
21:02:58 <tusho> Pie?
21:03:02 <tusho> It's you, isn't it.
21:03:05 <dogface_> :-P
21:03:10 <tusho> dogface_: Stop.
21:03:26 <ais523> anyway I found how to increase it at the rate of 1 per click
21:03:39 <ais523> move the mouse around so the clicks are too far apart to be double clicks
21:04:24 <tusho> Hmm. My <script> in the li does nothing.
21:04:26 <tusho> It is meant to refresh
21:04:29 <tusho> to give everyone the new version
21:04:55 <tusho> dogface_
21:04:57 <tusho> Stop 'pie' now
21:05:01 <tusho> or 'ihope' will go too
21:05:14 <dogface_> Do what?
21:05:27 <ais523> tusho: there appears to be a user with a zero-length name
21:05:30 <dogface_> I can't stop pie.
21:05:41 <tusho> ais523: that's for the script
21:05:44 <tusho> dogface_: Close the tab.
21:05:56 <dogface_> I am not pie.
21:06:28 <dogface_> The worst I've done is hold down enter and use two mouse buttons at once.
21:06:31 <dogface_> Or was that three?
21:06:40 <tusho> Tada.
21:06:48 <tusho> Everyone refreshed
21:06:54 <dogface_> Cool.
21:07:32 <tusho> Pie is now at -9001.
21:07:57 * ais523 registers Bobby Tables
21:08:01 <ais523> just to see what happens
21:08:14 <ais523> it looks like you're escaping properly, anyway
21:09:12 <tusho> RIP pie.
21:09:22 <ais523> there are a couple of others you probably want to get rid of too
21:09:32 <ais523> me testing your escaping quality, sorry about that
21:09:37 <tusho> No reason for them to go.
21:09:41 <tusho> They're not cheating.
21:09:44 <ais523> they look silly, though
21:09:51 <tusho> The whole thing looks silly.
21:10:38 <tusho> ais523: log in to mysql
21:10:38 <tusho> and do
21:10:42 <tusho> SELECT * FROM counter.log;
21:10:42 <tusho> :D
21:11:22 <dogface_> Yay, passed tusho.
21:11:35 <tusho> Heh.
21:11:37 <tusho> Helloooo notpie.
21:11:50 <ais523> hmm... my test3 didn't work either
21:11:53 <ais523> at least not on Konqueror
21:12:36 <ais523> I wanted to put an RLO into the score table...
21:12:54 <tusho> Ah, that's who pie is.
21:12:55 <tusho> Heh.
21:13:05 <tusho> ais523: It's pretty well-sanitized.
21:13:20 <tusho> nobody can defeat Anya, BeatlesLover or Procyon now, though
21:13:58 <ais523> tusho: a clever bot could just act like a human
21:14:02 <ais523> by using a delay
21:14:05 <ais523> and randomizing it a bit
21:14:20 <tusho> ais523: I am talking to Anya and Procyon on IM as we speak
21:14:31 <tusho> and I have a rather long history with BL and he could NOT code the JS to do it
21:14:59 * ais523 wonders who ehirdlover is
21:15:05 <tusho> Beats me.
21:15:08 * tusho checks logs
21:15:24 <dogface_> Darn Firefox, freezing up at precisely the wrong time.
21:15:42 <dogface_> I mean, hi.
21:15:46 <tusho> Hm wait I have no way of knowing who ehirdlover is.
21:15:47 <tusho> Oh well.
21:16:35 <dogface_> So, is there anything else at hideou.se?
21:17:00 <tusho> A 404 page which shows random spam.
21:17:12 <tusho> But no, not anything else ATM. It's a friend's personal site and the domain just propagated toady
21:17:13 <tusho> *today
21:17:16 <ais523> tusho: hmm... I often use the keyboard to simulate the mouse
21:17:21 <ais523> when I don't have a mouse connected
21:17:26 <tusho> ais523: that would be legal
21:17:30 <ais523> would repeated Fn-5 be considered cheating?
21:17:36 <tusho> as long as you actually hit something every time the counter is incremented
21:17:38 <tusho> then it's OK
21:17:49 <dogface_> So using three mouse buttons at once is okay.
21:18:15 <dogface_> Is somehow making it so that every key press registers as a click okay? :-P
21:19:02 <tusho> yes.
21:19:02 <tusho> :P
21:21:07 -!- oklopol has joined.
21:21:07 <ais523> tusho: I've been trying using Konqueror's keyboard controls
21:21:18 <ais523> alternating between Ctrl and I is actually a very fast way to get the score up
21:21:29 <ais523> faster than Fn-5 for some reason
21:24:49 <tusho> heh
21:25:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there?
21:25:47 * ais523 redefines "Show information" to Ctrl-Shift-I so that Ctrl-I is a NOP
21:28:09 <tusho> Hmm.
21:28:11 <tusho> Almost 100k.
21:28:16 <tusho> Let's go for it,
21:28:23 <ais523> go for what?
21:28:42 <tusho> 100k :P
21:28:55 <ais523> I'm just going for top-10 atm
21:29:00 <tusho> that could work too
21:29:18 <ais523> wait, I'm top-10 already and didn't notice]
21:30:22 <tusho> Those refreshes were an upgrade. :P
21:30:24 <oklopol> what are you talking about?
21:30:29 <tusho> oklopol: http://hideou.se/counter/
21:30:34 <tusho> a revival of a site I made that was #1 on digg
21:30:37 <ais523> tusho: what was your upgrade?
21:30:46 <tusho> ais523: the spinning wheel is now vertically aligned properly to the button
21:30:46 <tusho> XD
21:30:55 <oklopol> revival, as in same thing, reupped?
21:30:59 <tusho> oklopol: pretty much
21:31:11 <tusho> (Upgrades are trivial: change the highscore function to append <img src='/asdasd' onerror='location.reload()'> to it)
21:31:15 <tusho> (then wait for 5 refreshes and remove that line)
21:33:38 <tusho> Hmm.
21:33:41 <tusho> That domain pun works really well.
21:33:43 <tusho> 'Hideous counter'
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21:39:20 <tusho> I'm at 5.
21:39:27 <tusho> Getting higher than that by now would require bottness.
21:39:29 <tusho> *botness
21:41:31 <tusho> 90000
21:46:14 <tusho> ais523
21:46:16 <tusho> you're off the top 10
21:46:23 <ais523> oh
21:47:06 <ais523> well for ages it wasn't increasing at all when I clicked it
21:47:10 <tusho> hmm
21:47:12 <tusho> refresh again? :P
21:47:17 <tusho> hm
21:47:18 <ais523> nah, it jumped up by 100 after a bit
21:47:23 <tusho> should I make it bigger?
21:47:23 <ais523> so it was just very delayed
21:47:27 <tusho> it's kind of hard to hit it atm
21:47:31 <tusho> so no mad bangs on mice
21:47:36 <ais523> Ctrl-I gives me no problems hitting it...
21:47:41 <tusho> Well yea.
21:48:02 <tusho> HAPPY 100k!
21:48:09 <AnMaster> what is hidious counter thingy?
21:48:16 <AnMaster> err spelling
21:48:29 -!- Defenser has joined.
21:49:29 <ais523> AnMaster: a really pointless website that tusho made that reached #1 on digg last time it was up
21:49:42 <AnMaster> ais523, but what does it do then?
21:49:50 <tusho> AnMaster: it's a counter
21:49:52 <tusho> if you click on the button
21:49:54 <tusho> the counter goes up by one
21:49:55 <ais523> tusho: what did you just change?
21:50:01 <tusho> there are a high scores for top clickers
21:50:04 <tusho> ais523: input text biggar
21:50:08 <AnMaster> "103448"
21:50:11 <AnMaster> a lot of ppl clicked
21:50:12 <tusho> so bigger butan
21:50:15 <tusho> AnMaster: well duh
21:50:16 <AnMaster> or used some bot
21:50:19 <tusho> no
21:50:22 <tusho> nobody's botting at
21:50:23 <tusho> m
21:50:32 <tusho> AnMaster: just register and look at the high scores :P
21:50:41 <ais523> I went and wrote a one-line bot, but tusho won't let me use it
21:50:48 <tusho> well duh
21:50:52 <tusho> we had bots last time
21:50:53 <tusho> it was no fun
21:50:54 <tusho> this is fun
21:51:56 <ais523> tusho: Ryan's going up at 12 a second or so
21:52:01 <tusho> ah
21:52:04 <tusho> I'll have a word with bran
21:52:05 <tusho> he knows ryan
21:52:09 <ais523> or was, e slowed down
21:52:14 <ais523> but there's a human controlling it anyway
21:52:16 <ais523> he was stuck for ages
21:52:24 <ais523> then shot off really quickly when I got near em
21:52:50 <tusho> ok, bran said he was just testing
21:53:29 <dogface_> Aww, tusho refreshed me.
21:53:35 <tusho> dogface_: That was the upgrade
21:53:40 <tusho> Oh, and hear Procyon talk:
21:53:42 <dogface_> Oh.
21:53:45 <ais523> does anyone here know how to open a .lzma file?
21:53:49 <ais523> it appears to be some compression format
21:54:08 <ais523> ah, "unlzma"
21:54:14 <ais523> sounds good for decompressing it
21:54:30 <tusho> "okay this fucking hurst" / "*hurts" / "I'll stop" / "ow" / "fucking fingrtrs]" / "...I csn't type properly nymore" / "ow" / "I tried todo a ¬_¬ then" / "but ia ccidentally ended up closing the conersation window" / "how the hell"
21:54:30 <AnMaster> ais523, lzma works like bzip2 or gzip
21:54:34 <ais523> yes
21:54:37 <tusho> (Note: he usually has impeccable grammar.)
21:54:38 <AnMaster> so same command line switches
21:54:46 <ais523> I just wasn't sure if I had a program to decompress it
21:55:20 <ais523> AnMaster: 763 already?
21:55:25 <tusho> brb
21:55:33 <AnMaster> ais523, I have two mice attached
21:55:39 <ais523> heh
21:55:41 <pikhq> Lzma is actually becoming fairly common; I think most distros include it at this point.
21:56:02 <pikhq> (oh, and it has a tar option now.)
21:56:04 <AnMaster> ais523, I normaly try to shift between them in order to prevent damage on wrists
21:56:14 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:56:22 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
21:56:35 <ais523> I needed it to unpack gcc
21:58:21 -!- Defe has quit (No route to host).
22:01:23 <AnMaster> ais523, I passed you
22:01:28 <AnMaster> and now I'm going to bed
22:01:41 <AnMaster> ais523, and I stopped it at the current year
22:02:09 <dogface_> javascript:onkeyup = increment_counter;alert("okoko");
22:02:57 <ais523> tusho: is that cheating?
22:04:53 <AnMaster> night all
22:04:57 <ais523> night
22:05:25 <tusho> back
22:05:28 <tusho> ais523: no
22:05:34 <tusho> as long as you hit
22:05:35 <tusho> it's ok
22:05:51 <ais523> he gets two presses for each keypress, thoguh
22:05:55 <tusho> ah
22:05:56 <tusho> then yes
22:05:57 <tusho> that is cheating
22:08:00 -!- Defenser has changed nick to Defe.
22:08:20 <tusho> SimonRC: I see your list postings
22:08:22 <tusho> with my EYES
22:09:18 * tusho stops clicking at 4444
22:11:33 <fizzie> tusho: How about a X11 app which uses XGrabKey hooks to poke the web browser to increment the counter once per each key press, no matter where it happens? :p
22:11:43 <tusho> Rules:
22:11:46 <tusho> Or rather, rule:
22:11:56 <tusho> As long as you have to touch something to cause every single increment, it is allowed.
22:11:58 <tusho> So yes, that is permitted.
22:12:25 <fizzie> Yay, I could theoretically speaking be incrementing the counter and writing this insightful commentary here simultaneously. If I just were unlazy enough to write such a program.
22:12:33 <ais523> tusho: what about a program that counts my keypresses, then I write a bot to increase the counter that much?
22:12:46 <tusho> Hmm.
22:12:50 <tusho> Edge case.
22:12:58 <tusho> I think the increment has to happen soon after the keypress.
22:13:19 <oklopol> rules that can be broken should be broken
22:13:57 <psygnisfive> rules that can't be broken should be destroyed.
22:14:09 <oklopol> tusho: after an increment, a key needs to be pressed before another may happen
22:14:17 <tusho> oklopol: yes, and it should be followed up by an account delete too.
22:14:19 <tusho> and
22:14:20 <tusho> correct.
22:14:21 <ais523> or a mouse click
22:14:24 <tusho> yes
22:14:34 <tusho> as long as it is some motion of force done by a human to produce one single increment
22:14:36 <tusho> that is acceptable.
22:14:46 <tusho> [22:13:57] <psygnisfive> rules that can't be broken should be destroyed.
22:14:51 <tusho> if a click can do it with JS
22:14:53 <ais523> tusho: what about an increment by 1 every time I move the mouse one pixel?
22:14:55 <tusho> then it can be scripted with JS
22:15:08 <tusho> it's just not possible to stop, apart from limiting
22:15:13 <tusho> which would hurt legitimate clickaholics.
22:15:19 <tusho> ais523: that would not be acceptable
22:15:24 <tusho> as it is not a reasonable expedition of effort
22:16:34 <tusho> Hah. sqrt finishes at 21000.
22:16:35 <tusho> Whoo boy.
22:17:38 <tusho> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Haskell <-- this is like the least funny uncyclopedia article ever.
22:17:45 <tusho> Ha ha you changed some words.
22:17:53 <Slereah_> All uncyclopedia is unfunny
22:18:09 <psygnisfive> oklopol
22:18:22 <psygnisfive> im coming up with example sentences that i want you to look at. :D
22:18:23 <tusho> Slereah_: True dat.
22:18:25 <tusho> Hmm.
22:18:29 <tusho> cnet.com own com.com.
22:18:35 <tusho> Combine with www.www.extra-www.org, and...
22:18:36 <oklopol> “Haskell is compiled from .hs-files which means HOMO SEXUAL” this could be funny.
22:18:42 <tusho> www.www.example.com.com
22:18:43 <tusho> EPIC
22:19:15 <ais523> tusho: real website?
22:19:22 <tusho> ais523: no. should be
22:20:04 <tusho> psygnisfive: you are the user known as "asshole". Confirm/deny.
22:20:20 <psygnisfive> i am not know as "asshole"
22:20:24 <psygnisfive> tho i am AN asshole.
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22:31:40 <tusho> dogface_: mwahahaha
22:31:42 <tusho> I am catching up!
22:32:10 <tusho> wait
22:32:12 <tusho> I've got 1000 left
22:32:12 <tusho> shit
22:32:33 <dogface_> "Haskell is an encryption scheme created by Haskell Brooks Curry during World War II. Its power is derived mainly from the innovative concept of monads."
22:33:58 <tusho> dogface_: Nomads.
22:34:11 <Slereah_> You can't spell monads without nads.
22:35:50 <psygnisfive> you cant spell nomads without oma.
22:36:15 <oklopol> o
22:36:23 <psygnisfive> oklopol
22:36:32 <psygnisfive> PMs
22:36:33 <oklopol> pikhq
22:36:41 <oklopol> ...
22:36:44 <oklopol> psygnisfive
22:36:46 <dogface_> "The combination of monads with first-class functions has made this encryption scheme almost unbreakable until its accidental release to the public in the 90s, when it was mistaken for a programming language."
22:36:46 <psygnisfive> hahaha
22:36:49 <psygnisfive> p-tab?
22:37:06 <psygnisfive> hahaha
22:37:08 <psygnisfive> "Haskell"?
22:37:13 <psygnisfive> XD
22:38:28 <dogface_> Also, /!/no/!mads
22:38:45 <dogface_> Contains no oma, only o/!ma.
22:39:05 <Slereah_> Nonads
22:39:20 <dogface_> Look, Ma, no nads.
22:39:34 <dogface_> Or something like that, anyway.
22:47:22 <tusho> dogface_: I just beat you on the counter.
22:47:23 <tusho> By one. :P
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23:13:54 <tusho> Bloody hell.
23:13:57 <tusho> My wrist!
23:13:58 <tusho> My arm!
23:13:59 <tusho> My finger!
23:14:17 <olsner> told you it was a bad idea!
23:18:40 <tusho> olsner: XD
23:21:10 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:36:44 -!- ais523 has quit ("$/='!';eval join'',@{{'+','$t[$p]++;','-','$t[$p]--;','<','$p--;','>','$p++;','[','while($t[$p]){',']','}',',','$t[$p]=ord ge).
23:59:44 <tusho> Woohoo.
23:59:45 <tusho> #4.
23:59:49 <tusho> 15210 clicks.

2008-08-23:

00:05:08 <lament> can anyone in here upload files to the esoteric archive?
00:32:44 <tusho> no
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00:41:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I don't think it's perlish.
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03:24:14 <dogface_> Wow. I have so few points in Hideous Counter.
03:24:53 <psygnisf_> D:
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03:25:15 <dogface_> Relatively, that is.
03:25:29 <psygnisfive> dogface
03:25:35 <psygnisfive> will you participate in an experiment?
03:30:53 <dogface_> Maybe.
03:31:03 <dogface_> Not the AI Box experiment.
03:31:33 <dogface_> Yay, I got about 4000 points in just a few minutes.
03:31:35 <psygnisfive> no no
03:31:43 <psygnisfive> a serious experiment
03:32:09 <dogface_> A skilled person would be able to get... oh, 100 clicks per second without cheating.
03:32:19 <dogface_> Using JavaScript, yes, but not cheating.
03:32:24 <dogface_> What sort of experiment, then?
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03:32:47 <psygnisfive> i'd like you to try and formulate a grammar for english.
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03:34:52 <dogface_> Such a thing would be rather large.
03:35:43 <dogface_> Is it okay if I design a new language with few grammatical constructs?
03:36:16 <psygnisfive> no
03:36:22 <psygnisfive> :p
03:36:32 <psygnisfive> but you dont have to do a whole grammar
03:36:39 <psygnisfive> i just want your perspective
03:36:58 <dogface_> <sentence> ::= <noun> <verb>. <noun> ::= "q" <sentence>. <noun> ::= <noun> "q" <verb>. <verb> ::= <verb> <noun>.
03:37:06 <dogface_> That actually covers much of English.
03:37:11 <psygnisfive> no it doesnt :P
03:37:19 <psygnisfive> dont make me smack you :p
03:37:24 <dogface_> Yes it does. :-P
03:37:31 <psygnisfive> how >|
03:38:07 <dogface_> A sentence has a subject (noun) and a predicate (verb). A noun can be formed from a sentence, a verb can be added to a noun, and a noun can be added to a verb.
03:38:25 <psygnisfive> okfirstly
03:38:26 <psygnisfive> "q"?
03:38:53 <psygnisfive> secondly, lets not call congolmerations of things just noun or verb
03:39:02 <psygnisfive> if it has more than one thing on the right, call it a x phrase
03:39:24 <dogface_> "q" is a word.
03:39:39 <dogface_> An abbreviation of the Spanish word "que", meaning "that".
03:39:48 <psygnisfive> ok well your grammar is already wrong :)
03:40:14 <psygnisfive> S -> N V, N -> q S, N -> N q V, V -> V N
03:40:20 <psygnisfive> is wrong for a number of reasons :P
03:40:33 <psygnisfive> firstly, it contains no terminal symbols except Q
03:40:34 <dogface_> Replace all instances of <noun> with <noun phrase> and all instances of <verb> with <verb phrase>, then.
03:40:49 <psygnisfive> secondly, V is non-terminating!
03:41:25 <psygnisfive> secondly, S is recursively non-terminating
03:41:45 <psygnisfive> thirdly*
03:42:06 <dogface_> Well, you're going to have more words than just q. Languages are generally open-ended.
03:42:21 <psygnisfive> yes, but even so
03:42:24 <psygnisfive> your rules dont worry
03:42:30 <psygnisfive> even letting q be any word
03:42:55 <dogface_> What about even letting q be any word?
03:43:07 <psygnisfive> even with q as a variable for any word, the grammar wont work
03:43:44 <dogface_> What do you mean by "won't work"?
03:43:49 <psygnisfive> it wont work!
03:43:52 <psygnisfive> it produces no sentences.
03:44:02 <psygnisfive> because its non-terminating.
03:44:15 <psygnisfive> it has infinite recursion atleast three different places
03:44:24 <psygnisfive> non-optional infinite recursion
03:44:39 <dogface_> "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog." "Fox q is-quick q is-brown jumps dog q is-lazy."
03:44:51 <dogface_> Though it has no support for "the" or "over" at the moment.
03:45:06 <psygnisfive> what?
03:45:21 <psygnisfive> Fox q is-quick q is-brown... what?
03:45:38 <dogface_> That's the sentence in q-language.
03:45:51 <psygnisfive> firstly, no its not :)
03:46:04 <psygnisfive> secondly, this language isnt english :P
03:46:37 <psygnisfive> i get the feeling you dont know how to describe grammars with a BNF CFG
03:46:51 <dogface_> Firstly, yes it is. Secondly, okay, replace each word with its q-language equivalent.
03:46:58 <psygnisfive> sure
03:47:04 <psygnisfive> but how did you get "Fox"?
03:47:06 <psygnisfive> you cant.
03:47:12 <dogface_> Okay, okay.
03:47:20 <psygnisfive> your language has only non-terminals
03:47:23 <psygnisfive> which have infinite recursion
03:47:27 <psygnisfive> and arbitrary terminals
03:47:34 <psygnisfive> even if Fox was one of those terminals
03:47:34 <dogface_> <sentence> ::= <noun> <verb>. <noun> ::= "q" <sentence>. <noun> ::= <noun> "q" <verb>. <verb> ::= <verb> <noun>. <noun> ::= terminal noun. <verb> ::= terminal verb.
03:47:48 <psygnisfive> :P
03:47:55 <psygnisfive> why "q"?
03:48:25 <psygnisfive> besides, this isnt english :P
03:48:39 <dogface_> Languages have arbitrary terminals.
03:48:47 <psygnisfive> yes, but what is "q"?
03:48:54 <dogface_> "q" is a word.
03:48:58 <psygnisfive> a specific word?
03:49:01 <psygnisfive> or a variable?
03:49:05 <psygnisfive> as in, any word?
03:49:10 <dogface_> Yes, a specific word. The word "q".
03:49:17 <psygnisfive> ok, why? :P
03:49:41 <dogface_> Because when I think of the word "that" in other languages, I think "q".
03:50:04 <psygnisfive> ok
03:50:06 <psygnisfive> so?
03:50:31 <dogface_> You asked me why it was "q", didn't you? I needed a word for "that"; "q" was what I thought of.
03:51:09 <psygnisfive> why do you need a word for "that"?
03:51:44 <psygnisfive> oh i think i see what you mean
03:51:57 <psygnisfive> "that" as in "that you have brown hair upsets people"
03:52:09 <psygnisfive> ok thats interesting
03:52:10 <psygnisfive> but
03:52:16 <psygnisfive> it doesnt handle english :)
03:52:16 <dogface_> Because otherwise, there would be nothing to fill the role of adjectives, and you couldn't say "I wish that there were ice cream on my head."
03:52:24 <psygnisfive> you're missing adjectives and adverbs and other things
03:52:35 <dogface_> Adjectives can be replaced with verbs.
03:52:42 <psygnisfive> but thats not english
03:52:51 <psygnisfive> the question was can you provide a grammar of ENGLISH
03:53:00 <psygnisfive> not a grammar of your particular reworking of english
03:53:00 <dogface_> Quite true.
03:54:35 <psygnisfive> if you dont want to do it, just say so
03:54:44 <psygnisfive> but if you do, then you have to be serious :P
03:54:51 <dogface_> Okay, let's start basic.
03:55:22 <psygnisfive> i mean
03:55:34 <dogface_> These sorts of things exist: <something> ::= <something> <something-else>, <something> ::= "some special word" <something-else>, and dropping pieces of phrases so that they can be put elsewhere.
03:55:37 <psygnisfive> you've started off decently enough to the extent that it seems to account for very simple things
03:55:53 <psygnisfive> but its too limited
03:56:17 <dogface_> Like many others, I like to ignore the fact that many English sentences don't fit my model.
03:56:28 <psygnisfive> :p
03:56:32 <psygnisfive> cmon, be serious
03:56:36 <psygnisfive> also
03:56:37 <psygnisfive> pm
04:30:07 <dogface_> Now, someone write a Thue program to convert things like es:en,{I am not worth very much money.} to things like es,{No valo por mucho dinero.}
04:30:58 <dogface_> And I'll probably be going to bed nowabouts.
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07:19:23 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles/?id=26 - 1KBWC Screeble card!
07:34:40 <GreaseMonkey> :D
07:41:37 <asiekierka> I'd like to see a 1KBWC ircbot
07:41:45 <asiekierka> cards will be just text though
07:42:29 <asiekierka> A global library, from which everyone can take a card for play, and a local one, from which you can only take
07:42:32 <asiekierka> you'll define it like
07:43:01 <asiekierka> `addlocal "No Operationify" "Put the card on your opponent's deck and shuffle the deck"
07:43:02 <asiekierka> or
07:43:22 <asiekierka> `addglobal "Screeble Card" "Punch the stickman. blablabla"
07:43:26 <asiekierka> You can also do
07:43:48 <asiekierka> `addglobal "Pictured Card" "Added image" "http://example.com/some_picture.jpg"
07:43:51 <asiekierka> It can also be gif or png
07:44:04 <asiekierka> Addlocal works the same, only it adds to the local deck, not the global
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11:45:36 <tusho> um
11:45:37 <tusho> http://hideou.se/counter/
11:45:47 <tusho> wow.
11:45:48 <tusho> top person as 89715 clicks :O
11:45:58 <tusho> *has
11:45:59 <tusho> The boggles minds.
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12:12:57 <AnMaster> tusho, indeed it does
12:13:02 <AnMaster> must be scripted
12:13:07 <tusho> no
12:13:10 <tusho> I know who Aether is
12:13:20 <tusho> he may have used JS
12:13:20 <AnMaster> tusho, someone with a broken finger?
12:13:26 <tusho> but I think its feasable that he actually clicked
12:13:29 <AnMaster> tusho, well yeah I thought about that too
12:13:39 <tusho> not sure which, but I don't think he'd have JS'd it
12:13:46 <AnMaster> but I noted I didn't know enough js to actually do that
12:13:49 <tusho> he doesn't generall seem to tbe the type
12:14:15 <tusho> AnMaster: javascript:function x(){increment_counter();setTimeout(x,10);};x();
12:14:22 <tusho> Pretty trivial. Pretty trivial to detect, too.
12:14:48 <AnMaster> tusho, unless you do random pause in a certain interval?
12:15:12 <AnMaster> ie, average of 8 clicks per second +/- 3 or whatever
12:15:20 <tusho> AnMaster: sure, but then i'd notice that you never, ever stopped.
12:15:36 <AnMaster> tusho, with random pauses
12:15:43 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, but you'd still never stop
12:15:47 <tusho> you'd never take a break
12:15:49 <tusho> etc
12:15:54 <AnMaster> well random breaks?
12:16:52 <tusho> AnMaster: you mean like it'd stop every 15 mins or so for a bit?
12:17:05 <AnMaster> tusho, or even every 5 minutes
12:17:07 <AnMaster> yeah
12:17:12 <tusho> Well, if you do all of that, then you're a sad idiot who has nothing better to do than game a silly little website by showing off your 1337 javascript skillz.
12:17:21 <AnMaster> tusho, haha :)
12:17:22 <tusho> And I laugh at your wasted effort.
12:17:26 <AnMaster> indeed I don't know javascript
12:17:39 <AnMaster> human simulator :P
12:34:23 <oklopol> human misconceived as a bot is much more impressive than the other way around
12:41:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | switching to linux.
12:42:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, don't you have better things to do that breaking your finger?
12:44:03 <oklopol> i use two hands
12:44:58 <oklopol> uhh god i'm fast
12:47:39 <oklopol> okay, let's show BlehTehBleh
12:48:27 <oklopol> thousand to go
12:52:04 <tusho> oklopol: pfft
12:52:08 <tusho> noob
12:52:12 <tusho> 6969 is trivial :P
12:52:19 <tusho> 20001 is where it's at!
12:52:27 <tusho> 89715
12:52:31 <tusho> is ...
12:52:34 <tusho> :P
12:52:37 <tusho> Not where it's at!
12:52:41 <tusho> 89715 is totally uncool.
12:52:45 <tusho> So is 21100.
12:52:45 <tusho> Yeah.
12:52:47 <tusho> I'm totally winning.
12:53:17 <oklopol> time to take dreq down
12:53:19 <oklopol> *drew
12:54:50 <oklopol> done
12:55:13 <tusho> yer all peanuts
12:55:37 <oklopol> time for dividebyzero to face his destiny and shit
12:58:12 <oklopol> done
12:58:31 <oklopol> shtetl is dead. soon
12:59:45 <oklopol> /0 started playing, that was scary
13:02:21 <tusho> i know like 90% of these people ha
13:02:31 <tusho> also wow oklopol
13:02:33 <tusho> you are fast :D
13:09:00 <oklopol> yes
13:09:06 <tusho> oklopol
13:09:08 <oklopol> tusho
13:09:09 <tusho> how did you get 13000?
13:09:10 <tusho> ?!
13:09:14 <tusho> you were at like 6000
13:09:19 <oklopol> i pressed the button a few times.
13:09:24 <tusho> did you use a script :|
13:09:26 <oklopol> i'm a pianist
13:09:27 <oklopol> no
13:09:30 <tusho> ok
13:09:32 <tusho> you're just a machine then
13:09:32 <tusho> :P
13:09:33 <oklopol> i don't know how to script that, except for python
13:09:55 <oklopol> yeah i'm a mean button-pressing machine
13:10:16 <oklopol> hmm
13:10:26 <oklopol> wonder if i should own that beatles guy
13:10:45 <tusho> yes
13:10:50 <tusho> though if he starts just give up
13:11:02 <tusho> he's incredibly hyperactive and is insanely OCD
13:11:08 <tusho> you have to get him while he sleeps. :p
13:11:28 <oklopol> i'm the only one playing atm
13:11:34 <oklopol> hmm
13:11:34 <oklopol> not
13:11:38 <tusho> no you're not
13:11:39 <tusho> hannah is too
13:11:40 <tusho> oklopol: remember
13:11:43 <tusho> there's more than 35 people
13:11:45 <tusho> that's just the highscores
13:12:10 <tusho> oklopol: i'll make it show everyone for 10 secs
13:12:57 <tusho> oklopol: hm, nobody else is clicking thouhg
13:13:14 <oklopol> well
13:13:22 <oklopol> you could make it show the logged in user's points
13:13:31 <oklopol> at least
13:13:34 <tusho> true but why bother
13:13:38 <tusho> 1000 clicks is pretty darn easy
13:13:42 <tusho> and after that just look at the high scores
13:14:02 <oklopol> highscores?
13:14:06 <tusho> oklopol: 'top clickers'
13:14:08 <tusho> :P
13:14:13 <oklopol> is that the best 35, or everyone over 1000?
13:14:16 <tusho> best 35
13:14:20 <tusho> you just need to get over 1000 atm
13:14:28 <tusho> so it's not a great need
13:17:09 <oklopol> well yeah, but if you make it show the player's points, it will make sense even after decades!.
13:17:23 <oklopol> otherwise it's just sheet of numbers and names with button
13:17:48 <tusho> oklopol: that's coming in v4
13:17:49 <tusho> kthx
13:17:50 <tusho> now
13:17:52 <oklopol> :P
13:17:52 <tusho> overtake zebra
13:17:54 <tusho> and win moneys
13:17:57 <oklopol> :D
13:18:04 <oklopol> fuck you're next
13:18:07 <oklopol> i didn't even notive
13:18:09 <oklopol> *notice
13:18:14 <tusho> then dave, hannah should be pretty easy, emillion too, procyon
13:18:16 <tusho> (all very close)
13:18:21 <tusho> then alan redgown will be shiethard
13:18:26 <tusho> anya quite hard
13:18:30 <tusho> brain almost impossible
13:18:37 <tusho> blackbird as hard as alan redgown
13:18:40 <tusho> sqrt kind of hard
13:18:43 <tusho> and aether impossible.
13:21:22 <tusho> Phew.
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13:23:15 <asiekierka> Yaysirs
13:23:27 <asiekierka> i have the first Animathed Screeble done
13:23:34 <asiekierka> 4 seconds
13:23:41 <asiekierka> 352x288 resolution
13:23:44 <asiekierka> Quality: questionable
13:23:54 <tusho> asiekierka
13:23:56 <tusho> you'll like the counter
13:23:57 <tusho> http://hideou.se/counter/
13:26:03 <asiekierka> Can i hold f1
13:27:27 <tusho> What does f1 do
13:27:31 <asiekierka> Depends
13:27:41 <tusho> Well, the button there isn't a real button.
13:27:54 <tusho> It's a span with fancy styling.
13:27:58 <asiekierka> DEPENDS i saids
13:27:58 <tusho> asiekierka: basically
13:28:00 <tusho> it won't work
13:28:00 <asiekierka> said*
13:28:11 <tusho> and if you'd be more clear
13:28:12 <asiekierka> How many hits do i have now
13:28:12 <tusho> maybe I'd tell youw
13:28:13 <asiekierka> then
13:28:16 <tusho> I don't know.
13:28:23 <tusho> asiekierka: if the thing is spinning
13:28:25 <tusho> next to the button
13:28:27 <tusho> then it's incrementing
13:28:28 <tusho> if it's not
13:28:30 <tusho> nothing is happening
13:28:34 <asiekierka> F1 is mapped to "Click" in my key->to->action thingie for 3D movie maker
13:28:39 <asiekierka> It happens to work in IE too
13:28:52 <tusho> asiekierka: Then stop immediately
13:28:55 <tusho> or face a point reset
13:29:14 <tusho> The rule is: You have to exert reasonable effort for each increment.
13:29:20 <tusho> Hitting a key or clicking a button counts.
13:29:30 <tusho> I suggest tapping both enter keys (regular and numpad) in quick succession.
13:29:33 <asiekierka> Reset my points then :P
13:29:58 <asiekierka> You know
13:30:02 <asiekierka> you should make it 2 buttons
13:30:13 <asiekierka> First you press the left one, then the right, then the left, then the right
13:30:28 <asiekierka> Failing the order will result in -100 points, of if you have <100 points, zeroing it
13:30:52 <tusho> asiekierka: Your account has been removed.
13:31:00 <tusho> You can remake it if you won't cheat.
13:31:05 <asiekierka> ok
13:32:15 <asiekierka> Can I make a hardware clicker that recognizes every stomp on it as "Enter"?
13:32:27 <asiekierka> So i must stomp at it with a bit of power to recognize an "Enter"
13:32:40 <tusho> Yes.
13:32:52 <asiekierka> It's not cheating. It's "making-your-work-a-thousand-times-harder", like, the reverse of cheating
13:32:56 <tusho> As long as reasonable effort and the intention to cause an increment (not idly) is there, it's valid.
13:33:39 <asiekierka> it's so Hideous(e)
13:33:50 <asiekierka> It's more pointless than Screebles. Kudos!
13:34:53 <tusho> hideou.se is a friend's site
13:34:58 <tusho> I wrote that thing  a year ago
13:35:02 <tusho> and put it on there because he wanted me to :P
13:35:06 <tusho> He submitted it to digg a year back
13:35:11 <tusho> It got to the fisrt item on the front page
13:35:14 <tusho> with over 600 diggs
13:35:28 <oklopol> tusho: look at the clicker high scorez
13:35:49 <tusho> oklopol: why don't you
13:36:02 <oklopol> fucker
13:36:29 <tusho> :D
13:41:15 <tusho> oklopol: you back yet?
13:42:47 <asiekierka> Okay, brb, must put the Animathed Screeble #0 at YT
13:43:34 <asiekierka> But first
13:43:40 <asiekierka> make the start a little (10 frames) longer
13:43:53 <tusho> oklopol
13:43:56 <tusho> if you get to #1
13:44:02 <tusho> i will send you a cheque
13:44:05 <tusho> for £20.
13:45:24 <tusho> oklopol: deal?
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13:54:15 <oklopol> tusho: sure :)
13:54:36 <oklopol> but not just now, later tonight
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13:58:47 <tusho> oklopol: what do you finns use as a currency anyhoo
13:58:59 <Deewiant> €
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14:00:25 <tusho> oh
14:00:29 <tusho> crazy europeans
14:00:46 <tusho> okay so that's 25 euros, cool.
14:05:02 <asiekierka> Oh yay. Uploading an AnimaTHed Screeble :P
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14:06:09 <tusho> Linkinius decided my trial should be over
14:06:11 <tusho> :)
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14:06:25 <asiekierka> Yes it did :P
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14:06:44 <tusho> so now
14:06:46 <tusho> i'm back to colloquy :D
14:06:48 <tusho> Isn't that GRAND?
14:07:54 <asiekierka> Maybe
14:08:30 <tusho> Yes.
14:08:31 <tusho> Yes it is.
14:09:52 <asiekierka> Possibly.
14:09:59 <asiekierka> ... Ok i'll stop.
14:10:08 <asiekierka> Well, it's currently processing that screeble thing
14:10:20 <asiekierka> no wait
14:10:23 <asiekierka> it's there
14:10:28 <tusho> Give me a link!
14:10:31 <tusho> It'll be jewtastic.
14:10:34 <asiekierka> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa_p_cxNU_w
14:10:39 <asiekierka> STOPMOTIONED
14:10:46 <tusho> Mmm... Jews...
14:11:09 <tusho> I like it.
14:11:20 <asiekierka> It's not
14:11:37 <asiekierka> also, lol subliminal
14:12:07 <tusho> brb
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14:12:19 -!- tusho has joined.
14:12:21 <asiekierka> Ok
14:12:32 <tusho> ZOUNDS
14:12:52 <tusho> i did
14:12:52 <tusho> honest
14:12:53 -!- megatron has joined.
14:12:58 <AnMaster> hm where is ais?
14:13:05 <tusho> IT'S SATURDAY
14:13:06 <tusho> IT'S SATURDAY
14:13:06 <tusho> IT'S SATURDAY
14:13:07 <tusho> IT'S SATURDAY
14:13:07 <tusho> IT'S SATURDAY
14:13:12 <asiekierka> IT'S SATUSHO
14:13:12 <asiekierka> IT'S SATUSHO
14:13:12 <asiekierka> IT'S SATUSHO
14:13:13 <asiekierka> IT'S SATUSHO
14:13:13 <asiekierka> IT'S SATUSHO
14:13:28 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
14:13:28 -!- moozilla has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
14:13:29 -!- megatron has changed nick to moozilla.
14:13:30 <AnMaster> tusho, right, thought it was Sunday he wasn't here at
14:13:41 <tusho> He's here on neither saturday nor sunday.
14:13:47 <asiekierka> :(
14:13:52 <AnMaster> oh well
14:13:57 <asiekierka> I'm going to make another animathed screeble
14:14:00 <asiekierka> What could it be about
14:14:12 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
14:14:12 <asiekierka> Oh!
14:14:13 <asiekierka> Physics+Boxes=P4WNED
14:18:47 -!- Hiato has joined.
14:22:56 <asiekierka> Ugh
14:23:09 <asiekierka> Needed to mount the whiteboard for animathed screebles in a "worse but temporary" way
14:25:43 <oklopol> tusho: also i want a "clicks per second average during last minute"
14:25:50 <tusho> oklopol: dudey. v4.
14:29:45 <oklopol> yes, that was an idea for v4
14:30:00 <oklopol> gotta admit my arms do hurt a bit
14:30:13 <oklopol> but i think it's mainly the fact the comp is in my lap
14:30:54 <tusho> oklopol: v4 will have to be megaoptimized
14:30:58 <tusho> I'll have to fuck with httpd.conf
14:31:01 <tusho> to turn off logging
14:31:05 <tusho> so that the database log is the only one
14:31:16 <tusho> i'll have to set up mysql caches like fuck, too
14:31:23 <tusho> if I want it to sustain with all these features
14:31:36 <tusho> php'll have to go too, need something fast with a non-cgi model
14:34:03 <tusho> oklopol: wow. you are a hero
14:34:09 <tusho> you were at like 30 beforehand
14:34:22 <AnMaster> tusho, mysql? bah
14:34:25 <AnMaster> postgresql!
14:34:35 <asiekierka> Heh. 32 frames done
14:34:43 <tusho> AnMaster: apps I use require it kthxbai suck a dick. or keep complaining, whatever
14:35:01 <AnMaster> tusho, so do you prefer mysql or postgresql?
14:35:06 <tusho> postgre
14:35:12 <tusho> but I'm not running both mysql and postgresql
14:35:13 <AnMaster> ah good
14:35:18 <tusho> only 256mb, etc.
14:35:28 <tusho> plus, the counter doesn't really need referential integrity.
14:35:29 <AnMaster> right I see
14:35:35 <tusho> it needs speed and iirc you can get mysql to be faster than postgres
14:35:36 <AnMaster> true hah
14:35:40 <tusho> if you let it corrupt like hell
14:36:13 <AnMaster> tusho, what about mnesia?
14:36:15 <asiekierka> 55, getting there
14:36:41 <AnMaster> tusho, ?
14:36:42 <oklopol> 35000
14:36:47 <tusho> AnMaster: tbh I'm not sure _what_ I should use
14:36:57 <AnMaster> tusho, eh?
14:36:58 <oklopol> 13000 till next one :<
14:36:59 <tusho> I need a persistent integer that is incredibly fast to increment,
14:37:07 <AnMaster> hm
14:37:14 <tusho> I need a log of {user,datetime,count_at_time}
14:37:16 <AnMaster> tusho, battery backed RAM :P
14:37:21 <AnMaster> for the integer
14:37:22 <AnMaster> ;)
14:37:24 <tusho> and I need a database of users with simple info
14:37:26 <tusho> and a way to cache statistics
14:37:32 <oklopol> Anya is going down now.
14:37:35 <tusho> from the log
14:37:43 <tusho> like, clicks in 24 hours
14:37:44 <tusho> etc
14:37:47 <tusho> without querying it all the time
14:38:14 <AnMaster> tusho, but still what is your opinion on mnesia?
14:38:32 <tusho> *shrug*. It looks neat.
14:38:35 <tusho> Dunno if it'd be good for this.
14:38:50 <tusho> Really the important thing is that I can do loads of crazy queries on the log, and also cache those to hell
14:38:52 <AnMaster> tusho, well it is erlang only
14:38:56 <tusho> AnMaster: yes I know
14:38:59 <oklopol> lol i just realized i could watch tv shows while pressing the button
14:39:01 <AnMaster> so I guess that won't work for you
14:39:08 <AnMaster> hm
14:39:09 <tusho> oklopol: but then if someone starts
14:39:10 <oklopol> that £20 is mine! :P
14:39:11 <tusho> you need to go faster
14:39:15 <tusho> and you won't know
14:39:18 <tusho> if you're watching a tv show
14:39:22 <oklopol> not fullscreen
14:39:24 <oklopol> oh
14:39:25 <AnMaster> hm
14:39:26 <oklopol> not on tv either.
14:39:30 <oklopol> i don't have a tv
14:39:49 <AnMaster> tusho, mnesia in-memory db but that is disk backed
14:39:53 <AnMaster> *maybe*
14:40:04 <tusho> AnMaster: i'd prefer not to tie myself to erlang, really
14:40:06 <AnMaster> of course you need a lot of ram
14:40:11 <tusho> 'cause I'd have to learn erlang and stuff :D
14:40:11 <tusho> and
14:40:12 <AnMaster> which you said you didn't have
14:40:13 <tusho> 256mb of ram
14:40:26 <tusho> of which 171mb is used.
14:40:32 <tusho> err
14:40:32 <tusho> hm
14:40:36 <tusho> no
14:40:39 <tusho> 151mb is used
14:40:40 <tusho> so 102mb is free
14:41:00 <AnMaster> ok, I see your point
14:41:07 <AnMaster> hrrm....
14:42:03 <AnMaster> tusho, for that persisting number, write out the current number every 20 seconds to a file?
14:42:12 <AnMaster> use two files and rotate them if you wish
14:42:15 <tusho> AnMaster: more than 20 seconds, how about every minute
14:42:19 <AnMaster> tusho, fine
14:42:20 <tusho> but yes, that seems reasonable
14:42:25 <tusho> what about crashes though
14:42:29 <tusho> say it gets on digg
14:42:30 <tusho> and stuff
14:42:35 <tusho> so it's incrementing 100 every update
14:42:36 <tusho> (really happened)
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14:42:38 <tusho> if it crashes
14:42:42 <tusho> it loses a minutes worth of clicks.
14:42:48 <AnMaster> tusho, well you would loose the last minute one and have to rebuild from user list?
14:42:49 <tusho> 6000 clicks.
14:42:58 <tusho> AnMaster: that could take _hours_
14:43:08 <AnMaster> tusho, you expect that many users?
14:43:20 <tusho> AnMaster: it's not like it's going to go down
14:43:26 <tusho> so after a year, the log will be _freaking huge_
14:43:31 <AnMaster> err
14:43:35 <tusho> and rebuilding from the users table is a map reduce
14:43:41 <AnMaster> store on the db: {user, click count}
14:43:44 <tusho> yes
14:43:44 <tusho> i know
14:43:45 <AnMaster> maybe?
14:43:48 <tusho> mapReduce clicks (+) users
14:43:52 <tusho> even so
14:44:01 <tusho> AnMaster: say it takes just 10 minutes
14:44:07 <AnMaster> well
14:44:08 <tusho> well, in those 10 minutes, it'll drop off digg.
14:44:17 <AnMaster> two distributed nodes
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14:44:22 <tusho> AnMaster: i'm not using erlang
14:44:24 <AnMaster> in different data centers
14:44:28 <tusho> ha, as if
14:44:35 <AnMaster> tusho, no but you can do such stuff in C too, MPI iirc
14:44:45 <tusho> different data centers = lol
14:44:54 <tusho> this machine is a virtualized Xen machine
14:44:56 <tusho> a VPS :)
14:45:01 <AnMaster> ah right....
14:45:04 <tusho> $20/mo, I'm not buying more shit just for a counter
14:45:05 <tusho> :D
14:45:12 <asiekierka> 80-something frames for AnimaTHed Screeble #1 (the one before was #0)
14:45:12 <AnMaster> hehhe
14:45:29 <AnMaster> tusho, so... what are you going to do?
14:45:32 <tusho> a counter costing like $1,000 a month would be hilarious though
14:45:40 <tusho> AnMaster: dunno, probably use benchmarking tools to fuck it
14:45:43 <AnMaster> tusho, counter-cluster?
14:45:46 <tusho> and pick something that works decently
14:45:47 <AnMaster> ;P
14:45:49 <tusho> :D
14:45:52 <AnMaster> sounds like a game
14:45:54 <AnMaster> not sure why
14:46:03 <tusho> counter-cluster... instead of clustering things together
14:46:06 <tusho> you have to uncluster them
14:46:08 <AnMaster> haha
14:46:09 <tusho> like
14:46:13 <tusho> anti-puzzle-bobble
14:46:18 <AnMaster> oh wait sounds like counter strike
14:46:23 <AnMaster> that is why it sounded like a game
14:46:31 <tusho> AnMaster: puzzle bobble: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Puzzle_Bobble.png
14:46:38 <tusho> you have to shoot the things into three and then they drop, essentially
14:46:40 <tusho> so it'd be like...
14:46:42 <tusho> they start clustered
14:46:46 <tusho> and you have to knock them apart
14:46:52 <AnMaster> well sounds like frozen bubble
14:46:55 <tusho> yes
14:46:55 <AnMaster> or looks like rather
14:46:57 <tusho> frozen bubble is a clone
14:46:59 <tusho> :)
14:47:07 <AnMaster> yeah I tried the clone
14:47:12 <AnMaster> but really not my type of game
14:47:37 <AnMaster> and there are more clones, I saw someone playing a flash version of it on some "free games site" recently
14:47:46 <AnMaster> "yeti bubbles" I think it was called
14:47:50 <AnMaster> or something like that
14:48:00 <AnMaster> anyway
14:48:19 <AnMaster> tusho, what extra features do you plan to add?
14:48:32 <AnMaster> that means the current way isn't enough
14:48:35 <tusho> AnMaster: user profiles with lots of graph porn and statistics
14:48:43 <tusho> general graph porn and statistics and listings
14:48:50 <tusho> (like highest "atm" and highest all time, etc)
14:48:56 <tusho> maybe rounds
14:48:58 <tusho> where like
14:49:04 <tusho> the person with the most when the counter gets to N wins
14:49:09 <tusho> and then gets their name displayed in the "Winners"
14:49:11 <AnMaster> oh you mean rate of clickage over the average 24-hour period and such?
14:49:12 <tusho> uhh, a faster UI
14:49:17 <tusho> AnMaster: stuff like that, yeah
14:49:21 <tusho> and also
14:49:24 <tusho> not based on ajax polls
14:49:24 <AnMaster> oh god
14:49:24 <tusho> right now
14:49:30 <tusho> it makes 3 ajax requests
14:49:32 <tusho> every .5 seconds
14:49:35 <tusho> which do a database request each
14:49:43 <tusho> and each increment is 3 database queries
14:49:44 <tusho> "yikes"
14:49:48 <tusho> so I'll base it on comet/push
14:49:54 <tusho> and optimize the increment
14:49:59 <AnMaster> tusho, you know how bad this is from an ergonomic perspective?
14:50:10 <tusho> AnMaster: What, clicking something repeatedly?
14:50:12 <tusho> Yeah. :)
14:50:14 <AnMaster> yes...
14:50:17 <tusho> I'm working for the RSI medication companies.
14:50:20 <tusho> You got me.
14:50:22 <AnMaster> tusho, you should put up a warning about it
14:50:28 <tusho> AnMaster: No, this way, people get RSI
14:50:32 <tusho> and they go to the companies for treatment
14:50:36 <tusho> And I get a load of cash!
14:50:48 <AnMaster> tusho, thankfully you can click using enter after selecting the button with tab in my browser
14:50:58 <AnMaster> a bit better
14:51:02 <tusho> AnMaster: its not a button any more
14:51:05 <tusho> its just a span with styling
14:51:08 <tusho> but enter is actually coded in
14:51:10 <tusho> as a JS event
14:51:18 <AnMaster> tusho, what will happen on enter?
14:51:18 <tusho> See, it's not a button any more because otherwise you could hold enter.
14:51:20 <tusho> But you can't any more.
14:51:22 <tusho> AnMaster: increment
14:51:27 <AnMaster> so it does  the same?
14:51:37 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, if you notice you'll notice that if you hold enter
14:51:39 <tusho> it only does it once
14:51:45 <tusho> that's cause my coding checks for keyup
14:51:48 <tusho> until it lets enter do it again
14:51:57 <tusho> anyway if anyone needs a WARNING telling them that repeatedly clicking something over and over again gives them RSI they deserve it :D
14:52:05 <AnMaster> tusho, can't tab select it any more
14:52:08 <AnMaster> nor use enter
14:52:08 <AnMaster> weird
14:52:12 <tusho> AnMaster: if you click the document
14:52:14 <tusho> you can use enter
14:52:16 <tusho> click in the space
14:53:32 <AnMaster> tusho, I got 2 keyboard around :)
14:53:45 <tusho> Does it work now, though? :P
14:53:57 <AnMaster> yes it does
14:54:03 <tusho> Yay.
14:54:15 <tusho> AnMaster: you'll notice that even though the fake-button is just a regular bit of text
14:54:17 <tusho> you can't select the text
14:54:25 <tusho> (Reason being: double clicking selects word/line in most browsers)
14:54:27 <tusho> So it was distracting.
14:54:38 <tusho> If you look at the source you'll see the non-standard properties I used to do that. :P
14:55:02 <AnMaster> that is just for firefox
14:55:11 <tusho> no, opera and safari too
14:55:15 <tusho> note .button:selection
14:55:16 <tusho> a bit down
14:55:21 <tusho> dunno about konqueror
14:55:25 <tusho> webkit(safari) is based on khtml
14:55:28 <tusho> so i guess it probably works
14:55:53 <AnMaster> anyway I don't plan to do more than that
14:55:56 <AnMaster> not good
14:55:56 <asiekierka> i'm done with #1
14:55:58 <asiekierka> upping soon
14:56:48 <asiekierka> Heh
15:00:58 <oklopol> another vjn member started playing
15:01:40 <tusho> who
15:01:44 <oklopol> coolness
15:01:50 <tusho> ah yes
15:02:01 <tusho> he's dropped off the high scores?
15:02:03 <oklopol> he's the master of this kind of games
15:02:09 <tusho> oh no
15:02:10 <tusho> there
15:02:13 <oklopol> no, 17 and rising
15:02:30 <oklopol> and definitely manual, but he can play this for hours on end
15:05:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there?
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15:09:02 <asiekierka> Hello
15:09:13 <asiekierka> I'm going to upload the next animaTHed Screeble soon
15:09:44 <AnMaster> you said that before
15:11:13 <tusho> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2112529755533998573&q=cube+in+color&total=547&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0/ I like this movie.
15:11:35 <asiekierka> But this one meant i'm going to upload it sooner
15:11:39 <asiekierka> And i'm upping it right now.
15:12:07 <asiekierka> *DING* UPLOADED! Now let the YouTube server process the AnimaTHion. As the name of "animation" costs 2x more than the name of "comic
15:12:08 <asiekierka> "
15:13:26 <asiekierka> That one had 171 frames (including duplicates) and was at 15 FPS, not 24 FPS. 24 FPS animation is pain anyway and it doesn't give that much improvement from 15 FPS anyway
15:13:33 <AnMaster> it costs?
15:13:40 <AnMaster> what the heck are you talking about?
15:13:53 <asiekierka> Tusho.
15:14:00 <asiekierka> I'm talking to tusho and his weird imagination.
15:14:05 <asiekierka> It was a joke he made up
15:14:08 <asiekierka> that isn't even funny
15:14:22 <asiekierka> Oh
15:14:23 <asiekierka> and
15:14:24 <asiekierka> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3QUGjRfLCk
15:14:35 <AnMaster> well he is 12 years old, not very odd
15:14:45 <tusho> AnMaster: rodgerthegreat argued with me for ages
15:14:48 <tusho> about how what I made weren't comics
15:14:56 <AnMaster> I agree with him
15:14:59 <tusho> and how about my continued calling them comics was "denigerating the classification"
15:15:11 <tusho> which is true of course, you have to pay £5,000,00
15:15:14 <tusho> *000
15:15:16 <tusho> to call something a comic
15:15:22 <tusho> also, AnMaster, I am 13.
15:15:32 <psygnisfive> he turned 13 yesterday
15:15:37 <psygnisfive> where've you been anmaster
15:15:54 <oerjan> stuck in a time loop somewhere
15:16:02 <psygnisfive> damn time loops
15:16:25 <oerjan> i already rembered you saying that
15:16:29 <oerjan> *remembered
15:17:05 <oerjan> which makes me wonder, what is the opposite of deja vu
15:17:25 <tusho> oerjan: uv ajed
15:18:05 * oerjan beats the word "opposite" with a mallet for obnoxious ambiguity
15:18:29 <asiekierka> actually, it can be ajed uv too
15:19:15 <psygnisfive> yeah, english has changed a lot, oerjan.
15:19:31 <asiekierka> Soz
15:19:32 <psygnisfive> you were only gone for a few hours our time, but since you left and got stuck in the time loop
15:19:43 <asiekierka> So... How's that new animathed screeble (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3QUGjRfLCk)
15:19:44 <psygnisfive> there's be a revolution and a significant reform of the language
15:19:48 <asiekierka> Is it better than #0
15:19:50 <psygnisfive> i speak in the old tongue for your convenience
15:20:15 <oerjan> no no, that was AnMaster.  my time loop is far more sinister than that.
15:21:38 <psygnisfive> its still happened!
15:23:05 <oerjan> no, it's unhappened. you are looking at it from the wrong direction
15:23:28 <psygnisfive> im look back, into the future!
15:23:40 <psygnisfive> speaking of
15:24:12 <psygnisfive> did you know that not every culture/language conceptualizes the past as "behind" and the future as "ahead"?
15:24:42 <psygnisfive> not even English! tho its rare that we think of it in these alternate terms.
15:27:46 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, ah right
15:28:46 <psygnisfive> man
15:28:50 <psygnisfive> seriously
15:28:58 <psygnisfive> language is crazy D:
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15:33:57 <psygnisfive> oi! oklopol!
15:37:06 -!- oerjan has quit ("Argh, the pain! Au chocolat!").
15:37:47 <AnMaster> double.c:11: warning: declaration does not declare anything
15:37:48 <AnMaster> wtf
15:38:16 <psygnisfive> that'll teach you to use c
15:38:47 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, not my code
15:38:58 <psygnisfive> so? :P
15:39:27 <AnMaster> some code that ais wrote yesterday quickly to show how some stuff was done (addition of two int to simulate a long by hand, needed for something I'm doing)
15:39:36 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/
15:39:41 <psygnisfive> check out the poem there
15:39:44 <AnMaster> anyway found the issue
15:39:55 <psygnisfive> a poetic proof of the halting problem! :D
15:39:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I don't like poems, I prefer prose
15:40:11 <psygnisfive> prose is a kind of poetry.
15:40:15 <psygnisfive> don't be so ignorant.
15:40:39 <AnMaster> as in I prefer normal text
15:40:46 <AnMaster> prose may not be the right English word then
15:40:50 <psygnisfive> i know what you mean by prose
15:40:52 <AnMaster> prosa in Swedish though
15:40:52 <tusho> psygnisfive: AnMaster doesn't like art, basically.
15:40:58 <AnMaster> sure I like art
15:41:00 <tusho> whether in code or other form
15:41:01 <psygnisfive> you mean normal speech
15:41:04 <tusho> well, maybe he likes paintings
15:41:04 <psygnisfive> not rhyme and meter
15:41:08 <tusho> but that's boring
15:41:10 <AnMaster> I just don't like poems, I prefer normal text
15:41:11 <tusho> that's a copout definition of art
15:41:19 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> you mean normal speech <psygnisfive> not rhyme and meter <-- exactly
15:41:30 <psygnisfive> well i hate to tell you but
15:41:35 <psygnisfive> prose can be poetry too.
15:41:39 <AnMaster> and that is what is called prosa in Swedish at least
15:41:41 <tusho> psygnisfive: how ironic - [[for predicting the acts of computing mamchines.]]
15:41:49 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, depends on what you mean
15:42:15 <psygnisfive> no it doesnt. lol.
15:43:20 <psygnisfive> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose
15:44:02 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, as in the Swedish meaning of the word prosa
15:44:11 <AnMaster> which is what I'm referring to
15:44:17 <psygnisfive> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetry#Prose_poetry
15:44:30 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, maybe it have a different meaning in English, fine
15:44:38 <psygnisfive> i dont think it does :)
15:44:51 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, well what word do you suggest for it then?
15:44:58 <psygnisfive> prose!
15:52:04 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
15:53:25 <oklopol> psygnisfive!
15:53:30 <psygnisfive> pm
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16:07:53 <tusho> Supposed openbsd security expert has never heard of entity encoding HTML: http://bofh.ucs.ualberta.ca/javascript-sucks.html
16:07:54 <tusho> Discuss.
16:09:57 <AnMaster> I'm not sure what that page is trying to say...
16:10:00 <AnMaster> it makes no sense
16:17:46 <funktio> ") instruction unloads the semantics for a given fingerprint from any or all of the instructions A to Z (even if that fingerprint had never been loaded before)."
16:17:52 <funktio> could someone clarify what it means to unload something that's never been loaded?
16:19:31 <oklopol> funktio: probably NOP, although i have no idea why explicitly say that if it means nothing
16:20:07 <funktio> oklopol: ok, thanks
16:26:57 <Deewiant> funktio, oklopol: no
16:27:36 <Deewiant> what it means is that if fingerprint FOO defines A, B, and C, and fingerprint BAR defines B and C, then if you load FOO and then unload BAR, you are left with the A from FOO
16:28:53 <funktio> ok
16:29:19 <oklopol> well doesn't really say eithey of those
16:29:28 <oklopol> but yeah that's a more likely interpretation
16:29:36 <Deewiant> there's an example below which clarifies it, IIRC
16:32:35 <tusho> oklopol: I will owe you £20 won't I
16:32:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does mycology test LONG?
16:33:06 <oklopol> tusho: dunno, dunno
16:33:10 <oklopol> who the fuck is that alan?
16:33:28 <oklopol> and do i just have to reach the top for a second?
16:33:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: this file called mycology.b98 exists, and it prints this stuff called 'text' to this thing called 'stdout', and that text says what it does
16:33:40 <AnMaster> ah true
16:35:09 <AnMaster> ah well seems like it doesn't
16:36:00 <tusho> alan redgown is from the same place as all of them
16:36:03 <tusho> :P
16:43:25 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving.").
16:46:12 -!- dogface_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:47:29 <oklopol> tusho: and where is that?
16:47:33 <oklopol> how is he so fucking fast
16:47:39 <tusho> oklopol: a forum
16:47:42 <tusho> and he's magical
16:51:34 <oklopol> magical?
16:55:16 -!- Ilari has joined.
17:03:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no response from Mike yet regarding LONG
17:03:10 <AnMaster> and I found other issues in it
17:03:25 <AnMaster> docs say "low" and "high" word
17:03:38 <AnMaster> but which is the most significant one
17:06:33 <tusho> # OneDayIClickedThenIThoughtThisIsCoolClickingIsSoCoolWhatCouldBeCoolerWellNothingCanThatIsHowIThoughtThenIFoundThisCoolPageAndStartedClickingItWasReallyCoolItIsHardToDescribeHowCoolItWasThenIDecidedToSpendMyWholeLifeClickingItIsSoCool (3129)
17:06:35 <tusho> fucking stupid name
17:06:36 <tusho> :q
17:13:54 <oklopol> :D
17:14:16 <tusho> who is it
17:14:55 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:14:59 <tusho> hi ais523
17:15:10 <tusho> you're the last one on http://hideou.se/counter/
17:15:15 <tusho> and alan redgown is at 100001!
17:15:39 <ais523> hi tusho
17:15:41 <ais523> you win
17:15:43 <ais523> I can't stay long, though
17:15:47 <ais523> this place closes at 7, and the door to my department is /still/ broken
17:15:49 <ais523> I saw some workmen trying to fix it a couple of weeks ago too, so it isn't as if they aren't trying
17:16:06 <tusho> # OneDayIClickedThenIThoughtThisIsCoolClickingIsSoCoolWhatCouldBeCoolerWellNothingCanThatIsHowIThoughtThenIFoundThisCoolPageAndStartedClickingItWasReallyCoolItIsHardToDescribeHowCoolItWasThenIDecidedToSpendMyWholeLifeClickingItIsSoCool (5980)
17:16:08 <tusho> might crop that name
17:16:39 <ais523> I'm not even on your top 35 list...
17:16:53 <tusho> ah yes
17:16:56 <tusho> you got butted off it seems
17:17:03 <tusho> "EDIT2: And now I leave the most pointless website ever. It really is a huge waste of time, and I don't plan to do it regularly. Eventually people may get over 1m clicks, but I don't plan to be a part of it. oklopol, whoever you are, good luck on bumping me from my spot. It should happen pretty soon. :)" - Alan Redgown
17:17:08 <ais523> it's pointless trying to play on that website if you can't see how well you did
17:17:16 <tusho> ais523: well you have 2008 clicks
17:17:19 <ais523> tusho: where's that comment made?
17:17:25 <tusho> any less than 2410 clicks is peanuts anyway
17:17:25 <ais523> and more than 2008 now...
17:17:26 <tusho> trivial to get
17:17:32 <tusho> so, might as well just get to the highscores :P
17:17:34 <tusho> ais523: the forum
17:17:38 <tusho> from whence all these people came.
17:17:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you plan to implement LONG?
17:17:57 <AnMaster> ais523, hi
17:18:02 <ais523> still I'm worried that there are so many people over 10000
17:18:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: sure
17:18:05 <ais523> and hi AnMaster
17:18:09 <AnMaster> ais523, found out the division thing?
17:18:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I found an implementation in libgcc2.c which comes with gcc
17:18:24 <ais523> I haven't tried to make it work yet though
17:18:27 <ais523> it looks very complicated
17:18:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I recommend you wait for answer from Mike first, he has forgot to say which is the most significant word
17:18:45 <AnMaster> I will CC the mail I'm about to send to you too
17:18:46 <tusho> <ais523> still I'm worried that there are so many people over 10000
17:18:47 <tusho> why?
17:18:49 <tusho> I know none of them cheated
17:19:02 <ais523> tusho: not worried about cheating
17:19:08 <tusho> about what then
17:19:09 <ais523> worried about the amount of time people have put into that thing
17:19:09 <tusho> RSI?
17:19:12 <tusho> :D
17:19:16 <ais523> it's just so... pointless
17:19:22 <tusho> ais523: look at the title bar
17:19:26 <tusho> "the most pointless website ever"
17:19:30 <ais523> tusho: yes, I know
17:19:31 <tusho> ais523: oklopol has an incentive though
17:19:36 <tusho> he was at like #30 earlier today
17:19:38 <tusho> and hadn't clicked much
17:19:39 <AnMaster> ais523, ouch
17:19:40 <tusho> and I said
17:19:42 <tusho> if he got to #1
17:19:46 <tusho> I'd give him £20
17:19:50 <tusho> because I thought he wouldn't be able to
17:19:53 <tusho> since he was at like 3000
17:19:58 <tusho> now he's at 86081...
17:20:01 <oklopol> practising repetition techniques is never a waste of time
17:20:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sent
17:20:12 <tusho> so yea I had better start writing out a cheque..
17:20:18 <oklopol> tusho: when i started, i wasn't on the list
17:20:18 <AnMaster> hope Mike replies soon
17:20:23 <tusho> no you were oklopol
17:20:24 <ais523> tusho: has that counter ever been steady once it got past 1000 or so
17:20:25 <tusho> today you were
17:20:30 <tusho> ais523: occasionally
17:20:32 <ais523> or has it been going up all the time?
17:20:32 <tusho> for like 5 minutes
17:20:52 <tusho> ais523: you have 2118 clicks
17:20:53 <tusho> highscores soon
17:21:06 <ais523> you should show everyone their own score no matter where they are in the rankings
17:21:23 <tusho> that's for v4 kthxbai
17:21:27 <tusho> I don't wanna modify this code too much
17:21:33 <ais523> incidentally you're not too far off 1000000
17:21:35 <ais523> total
17:21:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I have implemented the 32-bit version of LONG mostly, waiting for your divrem for the 64-bit
17:21:58 <ais523> AnMaster: did my multiply work?
17:22:13 <AnMaster> ais523, ah well haven't tested it yet, however the file didn't work right away
17:22:16 <ais523> I didn't test it
17:22:18 <ais523> either
17:22:22 <AnMaster> for example you have ; in the #defines at the top
17:22:24 <ais523> and I'm not convinced it handles negatives correctly
17:22:32 <ais523> AnMaster: well I never compiled it, I was just writing it in a hurry
17:22:33 <AnMaster> that caused some... unusual... compiler error
17:22:37 <AnMaster> errors*
17:22:43 <ais523> and yes, it would do
17:22:56 <ais523> sometimes you can even get away with stray ;s scattered through your program
17:23:19 <AnMaster> ais523, also you use a == a_abs, doesn't work
17:23:25 <AnMaster> you can't compare structs like that
17:23:43 <tusho> "Wow, oklopol has passed sqrt. I guess he really is going to the top." - alan
17:23:43 <AnMaster> err !=
17:23:44 <tusho> you betcha
17:23:45 <ais523> yes you can, I think, if all the values in them are direct integers not pointers or things like that
17:23:45 <AnMaster> dm_compare(a,a_abs) != 0 compiles however
17:23:50 <tusho> he's in it for the £20
17:23:51 <tusho> :P
17:23:58 <AnMaster> ais523, well gcc didn't like it
17:24:00 <tusho> <ais523>yes you can, I think, if all the values in them are direct integers not pointers or things like that
17:24:01 <tusho> no
17:24:17 <ais523> hmm I must have muddled it with something else
17:24:25 <ais523> but yes, dm_compare was designed for it
17:24:37 <oklopol> hehe, trick of the mind ended in derren brown totally failing a stunt :P
17:24:56 <oklopol> but damnit, i need to find something else to watch
17:25:16 <ais523> tusho: I think it'll reach 1000000 in the next minute
17:25:19 <ais523> may be worth watching
17:25:23 <tusho> Cool.
17:25:26 <tusho> You should help it along.
17:25:29 <ais523> I am
17:25:34 <tusho> 2281...
17:25:35 <AnMaster> ais523, another issue, ascii to long, ie atol() for this custom long
17:25:36 <AnMaster> hrrm
17:25:42 <ais523> ok, it passed 1000000
17:25:44 <tusho> yay
17:25:45 <tusho> there we go
17:25:54 <oklopol> hmmhmm
17:25:58 <oklopol> about 15000 to go
17:26:07 <oklopol> that should take like, 40 minutes?
17:26:08 <ais523> AnMaster: you can do that with the usual trick, read digits from the left one at a time and add, multiply by ten before you read each digit
17:26:11 <oklopol> well, here goes
17:26:14 <AnMaster> ah yes
17:26:40 <AnMaster> ais523, actually I already do something like that to handle unusual bases for the BASE fingerprint
17:27:07 <AnMaster> static const char digits[] = "0123456789abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz";
17:27:42 <AnMaster> (strchr(digits, c) - digits)
17:27:49 <ais523> tusho: who got the millionth click?
17:27:54 <tusho> ais523: No idea.
17:27:59 <ais523> AnMaster: could be interesting
17:28:04 <ais523> tusho: it's one select in MySQL, isn't it
17:28:09 <tusho> ais523: no, it only logs user and date
17:28:12 <tusho> not what it made the click
17:28:12 <ais523> if you have a million-row database storing all the clicks
17:28:17 <ais523> tusho: sort by date
17:28:21 <ais523> unless it isn't accurate enough
17:28:29 <tusho> ais523: i don't know when the millionth click was.
17:28:44 <ais523> tusho: you can ORDER BY date then take the millionth item of the resulting list
17:28:45 <AnMaster> tusho, well you do
17:28:49 <tusho> ais523: ah yes
17:29:01 <tusho> grr
17:29:02 <tusho> OneDayIClickedThenIThoughtThisIsCoolClickingIsSoCoolWhatCouldBeCoolerWellNothingCanThatIsHowIThoughtThenIFoundThisCoolPageAndStartedClickingItWasReallyCoolItIsHardToDescribeHowCoolItWasThenIDecidedToSpendMyWholeLifeClickingItIsSoCool
17:29:04 <tusho> isn't reading my notice
17:29:45 <ais523> tusho: it's probably scrolled off the bottom of the screen
17:29:46 <tusho> now it's red
17:29:48 <tusho> and bold
17:29:49 <tusho> and flashing
17:29:56 <ais523> and I don't see the <blink>
17:30:05 <ais523> but I have to scroll down to see it
17:30:10 <ais523> probably it's worth moving it higher up the page
17:30:22 <tusho> tada
17:31:47 <oklopol> you made him sad! :P
17:32:07 <tusho> why
17:32:12 <tusho> do you know who it is?
17:38:29 <tusho> oklopol: damn
17:38:32 <tusho> you are really gonna get #1
17:38:41 <tusho> now, uh, where's my chequebook?
17:38:49 <AnMaster> tusho, does a 12 year old have one?
17:38:54 <AnMaster> ;P
17:38:57 <AnMaster> err
17:38:58 <AnMaster> 13
17:39:00 <AnMaster> but almost
17:39:02 <tusho> AnMaster: that's the second time you have made that mistake today
17:39:03 <tusho> :D
17:39:09 <ais523> AnMaster: in the UK you can request cheques at a bank even if you don't have a chequebook
17:39:12 <ais523> they print one off for you
17:39:18 <AnMaster> interesting
17:39:39 <AnMaster> I don't have a chequebook, because I can't see any use for one
17:39:40 <tusho> yes, I was being silly with the chequebook thing
17:40:09 <tusho> oklopol: you'll need to /msg me your address if you want this cheque :P
17:40:19 <tusho> don't worry, I won't stalk you _too_ much
17:41:03 <ais523> anyway, I spent most of last night working on a new lang
17:41:08 <tusho> ais523: ooh!
17:41:11 <AnMaster> ais523, feather?
17:41:12 <ais523> it's designed to compile into brainfuck, which is nothing unusual
17:41:24 <ais523> the interesting part is that it's also designed so that gcc can produce it as output
17:41:38 <ais523> I learnt gcc over the past couple of days and am now trying to make it a C -> BF converter
17:41:46 <tusho> ah yes
17:42:14 <AnMaster> ais523, you need to compile gcc against a backend right?
17:42:20 <ais523> AnMaster: that's it
17:42:23 <AnMaster> you can't select a backend at runtime?
17:42:25 <ais523> I'm writing the bf-unknown-none backend
17:42:30 <ais523> and no, you select it at gcc compile time
17:42:30 <AnMaster> ais523, ?
17:42:33 <AnMaster> argh
17:42:39 <AnMaster> well that makes it less interesting
17:42:43 <AnMaster> compiling gcc isn't fun
17:42:44 <ais523> why?
17:42:44 <oklopol> tusho: like home address?
17:42:55 <tusho> oklopol: unless you want the cheque to go somewhere else I guess :P
17:43:06 <tusho> AnMaster: compiilng css takes 15 minutes
17:43:07 <tusho> *gcc
17:43:20 <ais523> and compiling gcc is easy; apt-get source gcc-4.2, sudo apt-get build-dep gcc-4.2, configure, make, install
17:43:20 <AnMaster> tusho, half an hour on my cpu
17:44:39 <AnMaster> ais523, not easy
17:45:11 <ais523> AnMaster: what goes wrong for you when you try it, it compiles for me just the same way as any other program
17:45:45 <AnMaster> ../gcc4.2/configure --prefix=$HOME/local/gcc-bf --enable-languages=c,c++ --disable-multilib --with-arch=k8 --with-tune=k8
17:45:49 <AnMaster> something like that at least
17:45:56 <AnMaster> $ llvm-gcc -v
17:45:56 <AnMaster> Using built-in specs.
17:45:56 <AnMaster> Target: x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu
17:45:56 <AnMaster> Configured with: ../llvm-gcc4.2-2.3.source/configure --prefix=/home/arvid/local/llvm --program-prefix=llvm- --enable-llvm=/home/arvid/local/llvm --enable-languages=c,c++ --disable-shared --disable-multilib --with-arch=k8 --with-tune=k8
17:46:12 <AnMaster> or want the system GCC?
17:46:17 <ais523> that's a bit of a complicated configure line
17:46:24 <AnMaster> ais523, yes it is
17:46:31 <AnMaster> ais523, system gcc is worse
17:46:32 <AnMaster> Configured with: /var/tmp/portage/sys-devel/gcc-4.1.2/work/gcc-4.1.2/configure --prefix=/usr --bindir=/usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/gcc-bin/4.1.2 --includedir=/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/include --datadir=/usr/share/gcc-data/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2 --mandir=/usr/share/gcc-data/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/man --infodir=/usr/share/gcc-data/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/info --with-gxx-include-dir=/usr
17:46:33 <AnMaster> /lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.1.2/include/g++-v4 --host=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu --build=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu --disable-altivec --enable-nls --without-included-gettext --with-system-zlib --disable-checking --disable-werror --enable-secureplt --enable-multilib --enable-libmudflap --disable-libssp --disable-libgcj --enable-objc-gc --enable-languages=c,c++,d,objc,treelang,fortran --enable-shared --enable-thre
17:46:34 <AnMaster> ads=posix --enable-__cxa_atexit --enable-clocale=gnu
17:46:41 <ais523> I just used --with-languages=c --target=bf
17:46:49 <AnMaster> ais523, well see what I pasted
17:46:53 <ais523> although it doesn't compile yet because i haven't finished writing it
17:46:58 <ais523> oh and I added a --target too
17:47:07 <ais523> sorry, I meant --prefix
17:47:12 <ais523> but that's not unusual
17:47:32 <AnMaster> ais523, well what do you think of the system GCC one?
17:47:56 <ais523> I think it's unnecessarily complicated, it's the sort of thing a Gentoo user would come up with
17:48:02 <AnMaster> ais523, not a gentoo user
17:48:08 <AnMaster> it is the gentoo ebuild that created that line
17:48:11 <ais523> surely configure should be detecting those things rather than being told them?
17:48:18 <AnMaster> ais523, depends
17:48:41 <AnMaster> ais523, nop for most
17:48:49 <tusho> "it's the sort of thing a Gentoo user would come up with" hear hear
17:48:54 <tusho> can't stand most gentoo users
17:49:31 <AnMaster> --enable-shared --enable-threads=posix --disable-checking --disable-werror --enable-multilib --disable-altivec
17:49:36 <AnMaster> those are redundant I think
17:49:44 <tusho> Disable -Werror?
17:49:46 <tusho> Whyever?
17:49:50 <AnMaster> tusho, no clue
17:49:53 <AnMaster> I didn't write that
17:50:12 <AnMaster> tusho, I recommend you check the GCC ebuild
17:50:19 <tusho> Whatever.
17:50:23 <AnMaster> there is a viewvc somewhere if you don't have gentoo
17:53:30 -!- dogface has joined.
17:58:50 <ais523> anyway, what do people here think of the concept? has anyone tried it before/
17:58:53 <ais523> s/\//?/
17:59:07 <tusho> i think it's an awesome idea
17:59:09 <tusho> and probably
18:00:46 <dogface> It's a wonderful idea.
18:01:22 <dogface> What's your idea?
18:03:04 <oklopol> okay tusho watch your £20 go
18:04:06 <tusho> i'm watchin'
18:05:09 <oklopol> done
18:05:12 <tusho> oklopol: YOU DID IT
18:05:25 <oklopol> yes
18:05:38 <oklopol> i'm pretty awesome
18:06:27 <tusho> http://img.skitch.com/20080823-rwguwenystj943xjmsbebrmntr.png
18:06:59 <tusho> oklopol:
18:07:02 <tusho> don't you want to, uh
18:07:07 <tusho> get more than _one_ above alan?
18:07:07 <tusho> :p
18:07:08 <tusho> oh wait
18:07:10 <tusho> he said he'd stop
18:07:12 <tusho> so you're safe
18:07:37 <ais523> it's interesting to see which numbers people stopped at
18:07:38 <oklopol> well what do i care, once you said you were gonna pay me £20, i decided that's my goal
18:07:59 <oklopol> i'm trying to get coolness to get a nick @ 10404
18:08:00 <tusho> ais523: BeatlesLover stopped at 12345 a while back
18:08:12 <oklopol> because he already has 100^2 and 101^2
18:08:30 <oklopol> but he may disappear now, ofc, that i told tusho there's multinicking going on :P
18:08:35 <tusho> no
18:08:39 <tusho> I don't care about multinicking
18:08:40 <oklopol> that's ok?
18:08:45 <tusho> yes
18:08:50 <ais523> obviously, it just lowers your score
18:08:54 <ais523> as long as you aren't cheating
18:09:17 <oklopol> sure, but you can fill the whole list
18:09:28 <ais523> anyway, gcc seems to make certain assumptions which are wrong
18:09:35 <ais523> for instance that you can execute code on the stack
18:09:45 <tusho> ais523: just make it so that you can, then
18:09:51 <AnMaster> ais523, I almost implemented a GCC specific version of LONG for 128-bit, just to see if it was feasible
18:09:59 <ais523> and that frame pointers for old frames will be stored in memory somewhere
18:10:02 <AnMaster> it is same as the 32-bit one except a few lines
18:10:11 <AnMaster> of course __int128_t is very non-standard
18:10:17 <ais523> tusho: nah, I'm doing it with my own architecture, which is saner for BF use
18:10:21 <ais523> I'm trying to be reasonably optimal
18:10:26 <tusho> ais523: aww
18:10:28 <tusho> so no gcc?
18:10:32 <ais523> tusho: yes, so gcc
18:10:37 <ais523> I just looked at what would be broken
18:10:38 <tusho> oh
18:10:38 <tusho> okay
18:10:42 <ais523> and it was just gcc-specific extensions
18:10:48 <ais523> not C standard stuff at all
18:10:57 <AnMaster> <ais523> it's interesting to see which numbers people stopped at
18:11:04 <ais523> to be specific, I've broken __builtin_frame_address and nested functions
18:11:05 <AnMaster> ais523, can you see what one I stopped at then
18:11:07 <AnMaster> what it mean
18:11:10 <ais523> neither of which I've ever seen used
18:11:18 <ais523> AnMaster: IRC default port
18:11:19 <oklopol> i feel kinda empty now that i'm on top
18:11:22 <AnMaster> ais523, good :)
18:11:33 <oklopol> what will i do now :<
18:11:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, implement feather after ais523 write some specs for it? ;D
18:12:01 <tusho> oklopol: hmm
18:12:07 <tusho> i could make it so that your clicks go backwards
18:12:10 <tusho> and you could get to 0
18:12:19 <ais523> tusho: just add the decrement button
18:12:23 <AnMaster> tusho, and below?
18:12:25 <ais523> and have a low scores table
18:12:30 <AnMaster> wait I got an idea
18:12:35 <tusho> ais523: it just hangs around the current score, I tried that when it was on digg before
18:12:35 <ais523> for people to get into the negatives
18:12:35 <AnMaster> IP over counter
18:12:37 <tusho> it just stayed near 0
18:12:38 <AnMaster> tusho, ^
18:12:41 <tusho> AnMaster: ouch
18:12:57 <AnMaster> tusho, you use several logins to handle all the data
18:13:21 <AnMaster> bandwidth will be low, and delay huge
18:13:33 <AnMaster> still, I like the idea
18:13:34 <tusho> omg
18:13:37 <tusho> oklopol is still clicking
18:13:42 <oklopol> :--)
18:13:46 <ais523> anyway my BF generation strategy assumes that things like strings of a million > in a row are reasonably efficient
18:13:52 <tusho> oklopol: get to 123456
18:13:53 <oklopol> well after 100000 clicks it kinda feels like the natural thing to do
18:13:57 <oklopol> i was thinking about that
18:14:04 <tusho> oklopol: yeah do it
18:14:05 <tusho> :D
18:14:08 <ais523> it sort of relies on the interp doing run-length optimisation, most of the fast ones do anyway
18:14:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, how does your hand feel?
18:14:19 <oklopol> AnMaster: i'm a pianist, i don't feel a thing
18:14:38 <tusho> pianists get magical powers
18:14:38 <AnMaster> hahah
18:15:02 <oklopol> and not "hand", "hands"
18:15:03 <AnMaster> but still that is a lot more difference
18:15:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, two mice?
18:15:19 <oklopol> two hands, one button
18:15:24 <oklopol> i have a laptop
18:15:28 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah ok
18:15:29 <AnMaster> hm
18:15:32 * ais523 wonders how many mice could be connected to a computer at once
18:15:33 <AnMaster> that is less click dept
18:15:36 <ais523> probably a huge number
18:15:36 <AnMaster> depth*
18:15:41 <ais523> so everyone can cooperate with the clicking
18:15:45 <oklopol> it's almost twice as big as a normal key
18:15:50 <tusho> ais523: that's called "shared account".
18:15:53 <tusho> or digg/digg
18:15:56 <oklopol> the mousebutton that is
18:16:01 <AnMaster> ais523, using usb I believe 128 per host interface thingy
18:16:05 <AnMaster> or 127
18:16:08 <AnMaster> or something like that
18:16:27 <AnMaster> actually 127 units per host interface
18:16:40 <AnMaster> so 126 + one 126-port usb hub
18:16:40 <oklopol> what's that game where like 5 people touch this stone and it starts moving and writing shit
18:16:48 <AnMaster> of course you can have several host interfaces
18:16:49 <AnMaster> so a lot
18:16:51 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
18:16:59 <oklopol> you could do that with multiple mice :D
18:17:08 <oklopol> like, everyone tries not to move it
18:17:15 <oklopol> hmm, prolly wouldn't work the same way
18:17:27 <ais523> you'd need tactile feedback for it to work properly
18:17:31 <oklopol> yes
18:17:33 <ais523> mice with motors in to move the mouse around
18:17:37 <tusho> anyway
18:17:38 <AnMaster> lol
18:17:40 <oklopol> yeah, i just realized that
18:17:46 <tusho> ais523: are you good at optimizing perl code for speed :P
18:18:03 <ais523> tusho: not as good as for size, but much better than at optimising Mathematica for speed
18:18:06 <tusho> version 4 is gonna need huge optimization to be able to survive in the long run
18:18:18 <ais523> my attempts to optimise Mathematica made it go slower, generally speaking
18:18:20 <tusho> the actual counter will just be a number in memory that is persisted to disk every now and then
18:18:26 <tusho> and the users database can be a fairly regular thing
18:18:29 <tusho> the problem is the log
18:18:37 <tusho> {user,datetime,new_number}
18:18:41 <ais523> tusho: why do you need a log?
18:18:43 <tusho> a list of like 10 million of them
18:18:45 <tusho> in the long run
18:18:46 <tusho> ais523: statistics
18:18:56 <tusho> this thing will have tons of lists, tons of little tidbits, graph porn all over the place.
18:18:57 <oklopol> anti-bot, for isntance
18:18:59 <oklopol> *instance
18:19:00 <ais523> tusho: why not just generate the statistics rather than the log then?
18:19:09 <tusho> ais523: what if i wanna add a new kind of statistics
18:19:11 <tusho> besides
18:19:16 <tusho> a lot of them will amount to logging anyway
18:19:24 <oklopol> liek what?
18:19:44 <tusho> like "user's current activity/user's activity of all time"
18:19:48 <tusho> etc
18:19:54 <tusho> generating all the statistics
18:19:57 <tusho> will use more space than the log
18:19:58 <tusho> ais523: anyway
18:20:00 <tusho> storing the log isn't hard
18:20:03 <tusho> it's querying it fast
18:20:07 <tusho> it needs caches all over the place
18:20:12 <tusho> and loads of indexy things.
18:20:25 <tusho> i am unconvinced that a relational database is good for the log
18:20:28 <tusho> but a flatfile certainly isn't
18:20:33 <ais523> well querying it fast depends on what you want to do
18:20:40 <ais523> and you want a flat indexed database, really
18:20:45 <ais523> relational is pretty pointless for this
18:20:50 <ais523> but indexes are useful
18:21:05 <tusho> ais523: query the latest N log entries for a user. query *all* the log entries for a user (to display an "all time" graph)
18:21:15 <tusho> query all the entries on day/year/month/hour N.
18:21:23 <ais523> you almost certainly want a primary index on user
18:21:26 <tusho> etc
18:21:30 <ais523> and an index on date too
18:21:34 <tusho> ais523: and new click
18:21:38 <ais523> separate indexes, I think, probably
18:21:38 <tusho> and unroll it like this
18:21:44 <ais523> but yes, indexing all 3 fields would be helpful
18:21:50 <ais523> actually, new click is a natural key
18:21:56 <ais523> so you'd have it as primary key in the DB
18:21:57 <tusho> {user_id,year,month,day,hour,minute,second,milisecond,new_value}
18:22:01 <ais523> and index the other two
18:22:03 <tusho> and then indexes on every single one of them
18:22:03 <tusho> BUT
18:22:05 <tusho> with all those indexes
18:22:11 <tusho> it'll be taking a HUGE fucking amount of disk space
18:22:15 <ais523> tusho: just use a datetime class and index that
18:22:19 <tusho> so some kind of crazy space optimization will be required
18:22:20 <tusho> ais523: no
18:22:21 <tusho> what about
18:22:25 <tusho> "all clicks around noon, ever"
18:22:33 <tusho> that would be useful for graphing which hours are active
18:22:34 <tusho> etc
18:22:47 <ais523> tusho: you have to compromise somewhere...
18:23:02 <tusho> ais523: yes - the way I want to compromise is somehow making the indexes tiny
18:23:13 <tusho> maybe compression, maybe somehow finding ways to stick indexes together...
18:23:33 <tusho> ais523: I KNOW!
18:23:39 <tusho> What about a column oriented database?
18:23:47 <tusho> user_id,user_id,(etc),year,year,(etc)
18:23:48 <tusho> and so on
18:23:55 <tusho> i'm ... not sure how that helps
18:23:57 <tusho> but it sounds good
18:24:13 <oklopol> anyone wanna convert a short python program to c or something so it works a bit faster? :P
18:24:48 <tusho> oklopol: yeah :P
18:24:51 <tusho> ais523: any thoughts?
18:25:06 <ais523> tusho: not about that, I have so many other things to think about right now
18:25:13 <tusho> heh ok :D
18:25:15 <ais523> like how great it would be to translate Nethack into Prolog
18:25:20 <tusho> wow
18:25:42 <ais523> I want to do that some time, doubt I'll have the time though as it would probably take months
18:25:48 <ais523> but it's the perfect lang for it out of the ones I know
18:26:09 <tusho> ais523: perhaps perl isn't the best language for counter4
18:26:15 <tusho> i need something compiled, really
18:26:17 <tusho> either that or erlang :P
18:26:25 <ais523> tusho: C, compiled into Brainfuck?
18:26:32 <tusho> ais523: yeaaaaaaano.
18:27:28 <AnMaster> tusho, erlang is not compiled to native by default, it is compiled to bytecode run under a vm, but there is an extension for compiling to native code iirc, haven't used it so not sure how it works
18:27:32 <AnMaster> HIPE iirc is the name
18:27:37 <tusho> AnMaster: *OR* erlang
18:27:49 <AnMaster> tusho, why erlang :)
18:27:50 <ais523> my C->BF compiler is going through an intermediate lang that I'm causing ABI to create a massive acronym clash
18:28:03 <tusho> AnMaster: it seems like it is designed to handle this kind of shit :P
18:28:03 <ais523> which can either be compiled into BF or byte-code interpreter by BF
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18:28:17 <AnMaster> tusho, which is what exactly?
18:28:23 <tusho> ais523: standing for Almost Brainfuck Interface, right?
18:28:25 <AnMaster> lot of concurrency?
18:28:36 <AnMaster> it was *not* designed for handling pointless counters
18:28:39 <tusho> AnMaster: loads and loads of tiny changes, backed to disk occasionally,
18:28:40 <ais523> tusho: Assembler Brainfuck Interface, I think
18:28:49 <tusho> uhh
18:28:49 <AnMaster> tusho, well yes it can handle that pretty well I think
18:28:51 <tusho> and stuff
18:28:53 <tusho> like
18:28:55 <tusho> querying the log
18:28:56 <tusho> and uh yeah
18:29:05 <AnMaster> tusho, query hm, not sure how good that is
18:29:13 <AnMaster> well I haven't really used mnesia a lot yet
18:29:14 <tusho> AnMaster: well mnesia
18:29:17 <AnMaster> I have tried it a bit
18:29:18 <AnMaster> seems good
18:29:26 <ais523> tusho: just use SQLite, everyone else does, although I don't know why
18:29:26 <AnMaster> but haven't done any performance testing
18:29:31 <ais523> nor even what it is really
18:29:33 <AnMaster> sqlite is quite nice
18:29:48 <tusho> ais523: sqlite would ... not work for this
18:29:49 <tusho> at all
18:29:58 <tusho> only one process can open it at once
18:30:00 <AnMaster> ais523, sqlite is a database engine that works against a file, so you don't need a database server running
18:30:01 <tusho> (there's a lock)
18:30:02 <ais523> make it client-side and peer-to-peer?
18:30:03 <tusho> and
18:30:03 <tusho> yeah
18:30:05 <tusho> just one file
18:30:05 <tusho> really
18:30:08 <tusho> it needs in-memory cache
18:30:12 <AnMaster> tusho, well only one can write to it
18:30:13 <tusho> ais523: I am not going to use any SQL db
18:30:16 <AnMaster> more than one can read it at once
18:30:16 <tusho> AnMaster: well yea
18:30:20 <ais523> the data's just stored in the browsers of the people who are visiting the site
18:30:27 <tusho> ais523: way too open to cheating
18:30:29 <ais523> and if at any moment nobody's visiting the site it just vanishes
18:30:42 <ais523> tusho: your point is?
18:30:50 <tusho> ais523: v4 will be more resistant
18:32:25 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/LB7uns28.html is what I got so far
18:32:46 <AnMaster> testing it, that is the reason for "!defined(__GNUC__)"
18:32:48 <AnMaster> the ! that is
18:32:53 <AnMaster> otherwise the ! wouldn't be there
18:34:06 <AnMaster> huh
18:34:48 <AnMaster> ais523, your print depends on your divmod so...
18:34:58 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I wrote it first
18:35:09 <ais523> and yes, I haven't tested it for obvious reasons
18:35:22 <ais523> the rest is untested too but I'm reasonably sure I got + and - right, not sure about *
18:35:46 <AnMaster> well I'm not sure about what is most and least significant part in fingerprint
18:35:49 <AnMaster> due to bad docs
18:36:00 <AnMaster> I contacted Mike Riley, no reply yet
18:36:50 <AnMaster> ais523, the name change for the routines is due to making it work the same for 32-bit too
18:37:07 <ais523> I don't mind name changes
18:37:12 <ais523> it was only quick example code anyway
18:37:26 <ais523> I can't overengineer things in a few tens of minutes!
18:37:42 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway one issue is that there is not yet any test suite for LONG at all
18:37:52 <AnMaster> so this is really hard to test
18:38:00 <ais523> yes, especially in 64-bit
18:38:07 <AnMaster> even in 32-bit it is
18:38:10 <ais523> it was hard enough getting a memorable constant large enough to overflow
18:39:38 <ais523> I have to go home, anyway
18:39:44 -!- ais523 has quit ("$/='!';eval join'',@{{'+','$t[$p]++;','-','$t[$p]--;','<','$p--;','>','$p++;','[','while($t[$p]){',']','}',',','$t[$p]=ord ge).
18:41:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no.
18:49:49 <AnMaster> optbot!
18:49:49 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I have no clue, why am I talking?.
18:53:38 <oklopol> nice topic :)
18:54:00 <oklopol> sounds like something i would say, but i don't capitalize
18:58:45 <AnMaster> ais523, for when you log read: huh, it prints out correctly except one minor detail
18:58:50 <AnMaster> it prints out backwards
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19:04:12 <tusho> oklopol:
19:04:16 <tusho> pastebin the code nad /msg it
19:05:43 <AnMaster> ah fixed it
19:07:48 <dogface> t8 (ax,bx) (ay,by) = (t4 ax by + t4 ay bx + t4axbx + c4 t4axbx, t4 ay by) where t4axbx = t4 ax bx
19:08:14 <dogface> c8 (a,b) = (c4 (a + b), c4 b)
19:09:54 <dogface> + is bitwise XOR. t4, t2, c4, and c2 are implemented analogously, as are t16, etc.
19:10:21 <tusho> And that is?
19:10:28 <dogface> t1 x y is x AND y (they're both single bits), and c1 x is x.
19:10:33 <dogface> Nimber multiplication.
19:11:10 * dogface implements it betterly in Haskell
19:11:32 <dogface> s/ betterly / /
19:12:00 <oklopol> betterwise
19:12:24 <dogface> So, the smallest Int Haskell has is Int8?
19:16:48 <oerjan> also, Data.Bits has xor, .&., .|.
19:16:59 <dogface> Sound useful.
19:17:09 <oerjan> even for Integer
19:18:40 <dogface> Oh, I want Words, not Ints.
19:18:43 <oerjan> also, shifts and rotates
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19:30:54 <asiekierka> Hi
19:31:11 <asiekierka> http://youtube.com/user/asiekierka - #2 and #3 released
19:31:15 <dogface> Ello.
19:31:19 <asiekierka> Animathed screebles #2 and #3, i mean
19:31:29 <asiekierka> There's also #0 and #1
19:31:42 <asiekierka> They're screebles only by name, they don't have anything to do with it
19:31:51 <asiekierka> Except large randomness, but that has to do with me.
19:34:08 <asiekierka> dogface: How are the animathed screebles
19:36:48 <oerjan> what is a screeble?
19:37:35 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/screebles
19:41:14 <AnMaster> working with 128-bit integers in C sucks btw
19:41:46 <dogface> Hmm, that's not right.
19:42:13 <dogface> t8 (ax,ay) (bx,by) = (t4 ax by + t4 ay bx + t4axbx + c4 t4axbx, t4 ay by) where t4axbx = t4 ax bx, how about.
19:43:13 <AnMaster> dogface, what are you trying to do?
19:43:31 <AnMaster> and in what language
19:43:38 <dogface> AnMaster: implement nimber multiplication in Haskell.
19:43:49 <AnMaster> nimber multiplication?
19:43:50 <dogface> It'd be a better idea to look for an existing implementation, I'm thinking.
19:43:54 <AnMaster> also I don't know haskell :/
19:44:08 <AnMaster> dogface, what is "nimber multiplication"?
19:44:41 <dogface> Multiplication of nimbers. :-)
19:44:49 <AnMaster> dogface, then what are nimbers?
19:44:52 <dogface> And you can find out what a nimber is on Wikipedia.
19:44:54 <AnMaster> numbers typoed?
19:45:09 <dogface> Nim numbers.
19:45:37 <asiekierka> Nimber is a Nil mber
19:45:41 <AnMaster> dogface, I don't understand that wikipedia page
19:45:42 <asiekierka> Number is a Nu mber
19:45:43 * AnMaster shrugs
19:45:45 <asiekierka> :D
19:45:53 <AnMaster> <asiekierka> Nimber is a Nil mber <-- where did the l come from?
19:46:07 * asiekierka checks his Screebles archive
19:46:18 <dogface> I guess I'll have to explain nimbers to you, then.
19:46:28 * asiekierka failed, now checks all his Screebles: AnimaTHed frames
19:46:37 * asiekierka failed, fails to common sense: "I don't know"
19:46:47 <asiekierka> Oh. I don't know
19:46:57 * AnMaster gives asiekierka a strange look
19:47:06 <AnMaster> dogface, well a short summary would be nice
19:47:18 <dogface> asiekierka: I think I prefer Original Screebles(TM).
19:48:23 <asiekierka> Why?
19:48:35 <AnMaster> dogface, what do you use nimbers for?
19:48:50 <dogface> AnMaster: a nimber can be represented as a non-negative integer. The set of all nimbers with representations below 2^2^n, where n is a non-negative integer, is a finite field.
19:49:04 <dogface> asiekierka: because these animated ones are too confusing.
19:49:14 <dogface> And there seems to be more in an Original Screeble(TM).
19:49:19 <tusho> asiekierka: suggestion - slow down the animated ones
19:49:21 <tusho> they're a bit too fast
19:49:30 <AnMaster> dogface, what do you use nimbers for?
19:49:31 <tusho> just notch the framerate down a bit
19:49:38 <tusho> AnMaster: They're theoretical toys - got a problem with that?
19:49:49 <dogface> They aren't just theoretical toys.
19:50:03 <AnMaster> well I got a problem with false information
19:50:08 * AnMaster points at tusho
19:50:16 <asiekierka> #2 and #3 are 12fps
19:50:20 <asiekierka> Can't notch them down.
19:50:22 <tusho> dogface: Well they seemed like it. :P
19:50:24 <tusho> asiekierka: Why not?
19:50:27 <tusho> Just change the FPS down
19:50:29 <tusho> and it'll go slower
19:50:43 <asiekierka> Smoothness
19:50:45 <dogface> You can do anything with them that you can do with a finite field.
19:50:47 <AnMaster> tusho, would not be animated, would be slide show
19:50:48 <asiekierka> <12FPS isn't smooth anymore
19:50:49 <asiekierka> even a bit
19:50:52 <asiekierka> That's the problem
19:50:59 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you need more frames
19:51:00 <tusho> asiekierka: A lot of stop-motion isn't smooth. :P
19:51:04 <tusho> AnMaster: it already takes him like 3 hours
19:51:08 <tusho> for like 5 seconds
19:51:16 <AnMaster> hm ok
19:51:21 <dogface> And they're nicely representable as 32-bit integers.
19:51:22 <asiekierka> 1:30 hours for 20 seconds, you mean
19:51:58 <tusho> well, whatever.
19:51:59 <dogface> You'll have to use a Lanczos interpolation to increase the number of frames.
19:52:22 <AnMaster> dogface, are haskell numbers 32-bit by default?
19:52:38 <asiekierka> But they're meant to be a little on the fast
19:52:54 <tusho> AnMaster: bignums.
19:52:57 <asiekierka> Compare #2 and #3 with #0
19:52:58 <AnMaster> ah
19:52:58 <asiekierka> PLEASE
19:53:00 <tusho> asiekierka: link
19:53:01 <dogface> I think Ints have to be at least a certain size, and Integers are bignums.
19:53:10 <asiekierka> link for what
19:53:13 <AnMaster> asiekierka, non-flash link, so no youtube
19:53:37 <asiekierka> :/
19:53:39 <asiekierka> AVIs you want
19:53:40 <asiekierka> and a WMV
19:53:44 <asiekierka> AVIs are XVid
19:53:44 <tusho> asiekierka: ignore AnMaster
19:53:47 <tusho> if it's not .ogg
19:53:48 <asiekierka> the WMV is... WMV
19:53:51 <tusho> he won't care for it.
19:53:55 <AnMaster> ogg-theora is nice
19:54:03 <asiekierka> also, http://youtube.com/user/asiekierka for anyone missing links
19:54:04 <dogface> asiekierka: actually, after watching all four videos, I only remember two things about them: the "END!" at the end, and that thing that I think was a progress bar.
19:54:24 <asiekierka> They were meant for a single watch
19:54:31 <asiekierka> Not for a "rememberance"
19:54:33 <dogface> Nimbers are useful for Fourier transforming, I think.
19:54:43 <asiekierka> If they were meant to remember them, they'll be at LEAST 1:30 minutes
19:54:51 <tusho> #2 is very nice
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19:54:52 <tusho> :D
19:55:28 <tusho> #3 too
19:55:40 <dogface> My opinion, then: #2 and #3 are longer than #0.
19:55:58 <dogface> i play games now, k
19:58:03 <asiekierka> They're 12 FPS
19:58:13 <asiekierka> #1 was 15 FPS i think (or 24, i forgot)
19:58:15 <asiekierka> #0 was 24 FPS
20:00:11 <oerjan> asiekierka: what do you mean i am insane?  i am going to kill you with this carrot!
20:00:26 <tusho> oerjan: that's one twisted innuendo
20:00:44 <oerjan> tusho: oh no, he won't be _that_ lucky
20:01:00 <tusho> poor him.
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21:54:15 <oerjan> Cooooffeeee
21:57:09 <oerjan> darn wrists.  and i didn't even play tusho's game!
21:57:16 <tusho> ha
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22:37:03 <tusho> fun fact
22:37:08 <tusho> the guy who's site the counter is on
22:37:11 <tusho> had brainfuck as his first language
22:37:12 <tusho> no joke
22:37:47 <oerjan> optbot!
22:37:48 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and she's oklopol's girlfriend?.
22:47:30 <oklopol> cool topic :)
22:47:45 <oklopol> it's always about me or said by me
22:47:48 <oklopol> optbot!
22:47:49 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Just delete/revert any page containing the string "Excuse for my post but I do not have money to buy meal to my children. Forgive me please.".
22:47:56 <oklopol> optbot!
22:47:56 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | stop reading..
22:47:59 <oklopol> okay.
22:48:11 <oerjan> NOOO
22:49:12 <oerjan> i guess that means i need to play a game instead
22:50:49 <oerjan> optbot!
22:50:49 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | is >> giving a problem too ?.
22:58:15 <AnMaster> night
23:02:13 <tusho> oklopol: coolness is still clicking
23:03:28 <AnMaster> >>? right shift?
23:04:47 <oerjan> monadic operation
23:18:48 <psygnisfive> so oklopol
23:30:02 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:46:32 <tusho> Holy fuck.
23:46:34 <tusho> coolness is still clicking
23:49:13 <tusho> OKLOPOL
23:49:15 <tusho> ALAN OVERTOOK YOU
23:49:20 <tusho> QUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICK
23:49:23 <tusho> oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol
23:49:25 <tusho> oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol
23:49:26 <tusho> oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol
23:49:26 <tusho> oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol
23:49:27 <tusho> oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol
23:49:27 <tusho> oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol
23:50:09 <psygnisfive> i agree with tusho
23:50:11 <psygnisfive> oklopol!!!
23:50:19 <tusho> psygnisfive: http://hideou.se/counter/ is what I am talking about
23:50:21 <tusho> he is #2
23:50:23 <tusho> with 100300 clicks
23:50:27 <tusho> he was #1 until just now
23:50:39 <tusho> he got £20 for being #1
23:50:41 <psygnisfive> whats the point of this now?
23:50:42 <tusho> i'm sending the money tomorrow...
23:50:45 <tusho> psygnisfive: there's a number
23:50:47 <tusho> the button icnrements the number
23:50:51 <psygnisfive> ok
23:50:51 <tusho> it has a highscore of top clickers
23:50:56 <tusho> oklopol has clicked over 100k times.
23:51:02 <psygnisfive> basically its who can click the most?
23:51:47 <tusho> psygnisfive: yes, and how many people have clicked ever.
23:51:50 <tusho> it's amazing.
23:51:54 <tusho> and I made it
23:51:56 <tusho> and it was #1 on digg
23:51:57 <tusho> a year ago
23:51:59 <tusho> and now it is back up.
23:53:28 <tusho> psygnisfive: you kajy?
23:53:37 <psygnisfive> what?
23:53:44 <tusho> on the counter
23:53:52 <psygnisfive> no
23:53:59 <psygnisfive> i wouldnt even consider doing something so stupid
23:54:42 <tusho> i know
23:54:43 <tusho> it's fun
23:54:45 <tusho> how could you?
23:54:58 <fizzie> "It's not stupid, it's usefulnestically challenged!"
23:55:01 <psygnisfive> its stupid
23:56:17 <tusho> it's useless, not stupid
23:59:52 <AnMaster> ODICTITTICCISCWCBCWNCTIHITTIFTCPASCIWRCIIHTDHCIWTIDTSMWLCIISC?
23:59:57 <AnMaster> that is a very strange one

2008-08-24:

00:00:13 <AnMaster> tusho, there is no log out button
00:00:15 <AnMaster> there should be one
00:00:19 <tusho> AnMaster: why
00:00:26 <tusho> what is the use
00:00:28 <AnMaster> why not?
00:00:32 <AnMaster> to log out
00:00:36 <tusho> AnMaster: why would you want to?
00:00:37 <AnMaster> and log in as another account
00:00:40 <AnMaster> for ip over counter
00:00:44 <AnMaster> ;P
00:00:45 <tusho> ah. you mean, something you shouldn't do?
00:00:56 <tusho> Why would I add support for a feature that helps doing things that you aren't really meant to?
00:01:03 <AnMaster> tusho, IP over avian carrier with QoS so why not IP over counter?
00:01:12 <tusho> Because it isn't April 1.
00:01:21 <AnMaster> true
00:01:34 <AnMaster> tusho, but they don't write it during 1 April
00:01:38 <AnMaster> they write it in advance
00:01:45 <AnMaster> so I need time to test my idea out!
00:01:49 <tusho> then pretend I've written it in advance
00:02:00 <AnMaster> eh?
00:02:27 <AnMaster> tusho, what about the nick ODICTITTICCISCWCBCWNCTIHITTIFTCPASCIWRCIIHTDHCIWTIDTSMWLCIISC
00:02:29 <AnMaster> it is very odd
00:02:35 <tusho> AnMaster: it was a huge camelcase nick
00:02:36 <tusho> like
00:02:45 <tusho> OhDicksIntoCauliflour(etc)
00:02:48 <tusho> so I shortened it
00:02:53 <tusho> it was adding a horizontal scrollbar
00:02:55 <AnMaster> tusho, what was it originally?
00:02:58 <tusho> i don't know.
00:03:05 <tusho> logread.
00:03:08 <tusho> I said it somewhere.
00:03:17 <AnMaster> OneDayIClickedThenIThoughtThisIsCoolClickingIsSoCoolWhatCouldBeCoolerWellNothingCanThatIsHowIThoughtThenIFoundThisCoolPageAndStartedClickingItWasReallyCoolItIsHardToDescribeHowCoolItWasThenIDecidedToSpendMyWholeLifeClickingItIsSoCool
00:03:18 <AnMaster> oh my
00:03:32 <AnMaster> tusho, limit length when they register
00:03:36 <tusho> no.
00:03:37 <AnMaster> to 70 chars or something
00:03:42 <tusho> I AM NOT CHANGING THE CODEBASE
00:03:46 <tusho> IT IS OLD AND CRUSTY
00:03:53 <tusho> AN AWFUL TANGLE OF PHP THAT I AM NOT TOUCHING
00:04:00 <AnMaster> ZP02S1sQL6XvaUSK3J6hGb5WKXjIrC4lVweYsYd6G6yQVzVfVzOThzUxOuP9vOJUqVKLhFcTs1smP0OK4Jb54NhWNVB1pWARt1EBsQo4iuGXZ9A3ICozTNeSsTzYznVygfJEwKuJOVd7xbMJItHYZu1vy7pXp87BEIqRyF3SSVk6Utne2SGVrv36VTeqR7ThBeMP45olUtZOapRSDP9BrkWbRuttjjhaTFK13D0dZXl7hT7LRvZ5Koi2zMRqX6s4ewxxXIToTDb0TlgwM5oEdo7fI3WErmOIYo3423n042IfJT87ecR51HySeCUBWOPc4xCliNSyloM6scQrwMMJxtDxK7THJbmBKgrDJKQecFiI1zMtdtZHNLQf1XfaADXHVKTUwNjSCHEg1bNqAoEc
00:04:00 <AnMaster> ICSS9l94lGszdnmolOzJSjzS74HFAhEOu55Vkd2Ohm33PJDjoMAwAKqpi6ef3bjFKddqsn2KIyoxvwolq4uuXHjfUI3Q5nuOcQV2ybbuR3c
00:04:04 <AnMaster> that would rock
00:04:16 <AnMaster> tusho, what would you do if I started using something like that?
00:04:28 <tusho> AnMaster: I'd change it to ISuckCocks.
00:04:39 <AnMaster> tusho, but I wouldn't be able to log in any longer
00:04:43 <tusho> Correct.
00:04:44 <AnMaster> as the user name wouldn't match
00:07:53 <AnMaster> tusho, number 33 and 34 are changing place back and forth here
00:08:13 <AnMaster> both got same count of clicks
00:08:22 <AnMaster> tusho, seems your sorting isn't stable?
00:08:35 <tusho> Ot
00:08:38 <tusho> *It's just MySQLs.
00:08:40 <tusho> Whatever.
00:09:50 <AnMaster> tusho, but you see it too?
00:09:58 <tusho> Yes.
00:11:02 <AnMaster> how the heck can someone make like one hundred thousand clicks
00:11:19 <AnMaster> or even ten thousand
00:15:59 <tusho> by clicking one hundred thousand times.
00:16:01 <tusho> i did.
00:16:05 <tusho> 24992, #16
00:16:23 <tusho> AnMaster: you can also tap enter instead of clicking
00:16:33 <tusho> the top ones mostly both click and tap simultaneously
00:41:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I'm done criticizing now :-3.
00:49:17 <tusho> optbot!
00:49:17 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I think so..
00:52:41 <tusho> Wow.
00:52:43 <tusho> Coolness is #1.
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05:03:48 <CakeProphet> Hello.
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07:03:52 <funktio> javascript: for (var i = 0; i < 100; i++) { increment_counter() }
07:07:47 <psygnisfive> i prefer ruby's method for fixed iteration
07:08:12 <psygnisfive> 100.times { increment_counter }
07:08:14 <psygnisfive> or
07:08:24 <psygnisfive> 0.upto 100 { increment_counter }
07:08:42 <psygnisfive> or maybe its upto(100)
07:08:44 <psygnisfive> i forget
07:08:48 <funktio> Haskell would be something like: mapM_ increment_counter [1..100]
07:09:04 <psygnisfive> eh.. probably not
07:09:10 <psygnisfive> since you're not sending i to increment_counter
07:09:12 <psygnisfive> but
07:09:13 <funktio> oh yeah
07:09:30 <funktio> replicate 100 increment_counter
07:09:34 <psygnisfive> map (\x -> increment_counter) [1..100] would work i think
07:09:38 <psygnisfive> tho this is haskell
07:09:50 <psygnisfive> so increment_counter is probably going to be hard to make work :D
07:11:44 <funktio> I just started implementing fingerprints, isn't as annoying as I thought it'd be
07:12:11 <psygnisfive> fingerprints?
07:13:13 <funktio> befunge
07:13:27 <psygnisfive> i dont know befunge
07:13:36 <funktio> http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html#Fingerprints
07:13:56 <funktio> they're kinda like libraries
07:13:59 <psygnisfive> dont want to know :p
07:16:16 <funktio> I wrote my interpreter in Haskell :P
07:18:14 <psygnisfive> crazy
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07:31:39 <asiekierka> Hello!
07:31:49 <asiekierka> Hell "O"
07:32:22 <asiekierka> 0O0O0O0O0O0O0O0O0O0O0O0O0O0O - The Fixedsys pairs
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08:17:25 <asiekierka> Oh god
08:17:32 <asiekierka> i made the fifth Animathed Screeble
08:17:37 <asiekierka> #4 (started at #0)
08:21:07 <asiekierka> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwfr7vod6yc - an "OH GOD" here
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08:23:19 <asiekierka> GOOD LORD
08:23:26 <asiekierka> i just found my old "The Commodore Kid" movie
08:23:41 <asiekierka> From this year's early vacation
08:23:53 <asiekierka> When my datasette was ...still... working
08:24:01 <asiekierka> Hopefully i'd be able to do a new episode
08:24:06 <asiekierka> since i'm getting an "X-Cable"
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10:35:06 <asiekierka> Y4WB!
10:35:06 <asiekierka> Yay For WhiteBoards!
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11:31:32 <asiekierka> hello
11:31:39 <asiekierka> i made animathed screeble #4
11:35:12 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Labs#Discoveries_and_Developments I had no idea Bell Labs did so much.
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12:30:48 <tusho> Is AMS-LaTeX good for something else than generating its own logo? --Abdull 08:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
12:41:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | then have a wrapper.
12:50:05 <tusho> Jesus christ.
12:50:09 <tusho> "Because at this stage I'm focusing mostly on making programs shorter." - pg
12:50:13 <tusho> SHUT THE FUCK UP PAUL GRAHAM
12:50:14 <tusho> NOBODY CARES
12:50:17 <tusho> ALSO IT'S BEEN OUT FOR FUCKING AGES
12:50:23 <tusho> WHEN THE FUCK DOES THE NEXT STAGE START YOU MORON?!
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13:06:15 <oklopol> god i hate coolness
13:06:48 <oklopol> the guy has three jobs, now applying for a fourth, and can still press the fucking button 8 hours a day :P
13:07:35 <olsner> press the fucking button?
13:07:48 <oklopol> hideou.se/counter
13:09:50 <olsner> wow, how pointless
13:18:25 <oklopol> i wouldn't say it's pointless, just too easy to cheat in
13:22:14 <tusho> yea, but I ban cheaters
13:22:17 <tusho> :P
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13:22:21 <tusho> but yeah
13:22:24 <tusho> coolness is pretty fucked up
13:22:27 <tusho> from the looks of it
13:22:27 <tusho> :D
13:22:32 <tusho> you kno
13:22:32 <tusho> w
13:22:41 <tusho> I'm soooo tempted to make coolness' clicks go to oklopol instead
13:22:52 <tusho> xD
13:23:38 <tusho> oklopol: shuddidoit
13:29:58 <oklopol> :P
13:30:04 <oklopol> well no, not really
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13:33:43 <asiekierka> Eh-lo
13:45:26 <tusho> hi asiekierka
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14:10:45 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, hi
14:10:58 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, what should happen on E in REXP before any call to C?
14:11:08 <tusho> undefined
14:11:10 <AnMaster> RC/Funge crashes
14:11:17 <tusho> IF IT ISN'T SPECIFIED -
14:11:18 <tusho> IT'S UNDEFINED
14:11:19 <tusho> ok?
14:11:30 <AnMaster> cfunge reflects
14:11:58 <MikeRiley> reflect should be the proper action...
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14:12:27 <funktio> could some explain what G and P in ORTH are supposed to do?
14:12:50 <AnMaster> funktio, get and set without using storage offset and with reversed x and y coordinates
14:12:55 <AnMaster> so pop x first then y
14:12:58 <AnMaster> unlike the normal
14:12:59 <funktio> AnMaster: aha, thanks
14:13:02 <AnMaster> iirc that is what it does
14:13:10 <AnMaster> funktio, better check the docs though
14:13:10 <MikeRiley> that is what it looks like it does...
14:13:41 <funktio> the catseye "documentation" says just "ortho get" and "ortho put"
14:13:56 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, also RC/Funge doesn't free the compiled buffer if you compile twice
14:14:08 <MikeRiley> ok, will fix that
14:14:12 <AnMaster> oh and I think there are possible buffer overflows
14:14:24 <AnMaster>   char buffer2[1000];
14:14:27 <AnMaster> and
14:14:28 <AnMaster>                        strncpy(buffer2,buffer+matches[i].rm_so,
14:14:28 <AnMaster>                           matches[i].rm_eo-matches[i].rm_so);
14:14:40 <AnMaster> not sure though
14:15:28 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, try:
14:15:30 <AnMaster> "PXER"4( #v Fv  >   > @
14:15:30 <AnMaster>           >  > #^ E ^
14:15:38 <AnMaster> hopefully shouldn't crash
14:15:44 <AnMaster> not sure if F should reflect or not
14:15:49 <MikeRiley> yes, overflow would be possible on long strings...
14:16:07 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, also how many matches should be supported?
14:16:12 <AnMaster> I went for 128
14:16:21 <AnMaster> could easily extend that
14:16:30 <MikeRiley> no limit specified for number of matches,,,could be any number...
14:17:07 <MikeRiley> F should not reflect...
14:17:18 <MikeRiley> if F has nothing to free, it should just go on...
14:17:52 <AnMaster> right
14:18:31 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, "sorry, I have no way to test for 128-bit longs...but if your code works correctly for 64-bit longs then your 128-bit ones should be fine as "
14:18:32 <AnMaster> not true
14:18:37 <AnMaster> I use different methods
14:18:45 <MikeRiley> ok, depends on the methods you use....
14:18:45 <AnMaster> for 128-bit I do it manually
14:18:49 <funktio> AnMaster: what you said seems to be correct, Mycology gives GOODs now :)
14:18:56 <MikeRiley> but the 64-bit one should show what orders thigns are in at least..
14:18:56 <AnMaster> ie, division by hand and such
14:19:06 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, while for 64-bit I use an union with long
14:19:07 <AnMaster> err
14:19:10 <AnMaster> yeah
14:19:28 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, however my 128-bit one is buggy, I know that
14:20:02 <MikeRiley> i cannot write a 128-bit test,,,,since Rc/Funge-98 uses 32-bit cells...
14:20:04 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, anyway any good test suite for LONG need to be able to support funges that are not 32-bit
14:20:22 <MikeRiley> well...will indicate that long.f98 only words for 32-bit funges...
14:20:27 <AnMaster> what if I made a 256-bit funge, then LONG would be 512 bits
14:20:39 <MikeRiley> i understand that....
14:20:55 <MikeRiley> in which case there is really no reasonable way to test them...
14:20:56 <AnMaster> you should be able to construct the needed arguments at runtime using y!
14:21:18 <AnMaster> you can get cell size that way :D
14:21:22 <funktio> I'm using arbitrary precision integers
14:21:38 <AnMaster> funktio, then I guess LONG makes no sense to implement for you
14:22:19 <Deewiant> LONG is a bit silly in that respect
14:22:23 <Deewiant> what would be the use case
14:22:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, will you implement it?
14:23:17 <Deewiant> not sure if it makes sense, like EMEM or whatever it was
14:23:27 <AnMaster> well LONG makes more sense than EMEM
14:23:47 <Deewiant> does it? where would you use LONG
14:24:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, assuming you have a 32-bit funge and want to use 64-bit integers?
14:24:19 <AnMaster> you could do floating point without FPDP/FPSP
14:24:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yeah, exactly, assuming
14:24:33 <Deewiant> so it's just a way to make your programs non-portable
14:24:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then what about treating IPv6 in 64-bit funges?
14:24:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is a command to sign extend one cell integers
14:25:13 <Deewiant> whenever you say "x-bit funges" you're saying "doesn't work in non-x-bit funges"
14:25:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do I?
14:25:39 <AnMaster> you could use LONG in larger funges, but it may not be needed
14:25:55 <AnMaster> ie, LONG for 64-bit integers would work in 64-bit funge, just wouldn't be needed
14:26:09 <Deewiant> sure it'd work
14:26:19 <Deewiant> but what if you have a 64-bit funge that doesn't implement LONG
14:26:25 <AnMaster> at least if you do it the right way and don't assume what the bits are
14:26:34 <Deewiant> then it wouldn't be needed as you say but the program would complain that it doesn't have LONG
14:26:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, an issue indeed, but then what if you depend on FPDP and the funge doesn't implement it?
14:27:12 <Deewiant> yeah, I think FPSP/FPDP are somewhat the same way
14:27:18 <Deewiant> at least in the respect that only one of them should exist
14:27:24 <Deewiant> "FLOT" or whatever
14:27:44 <MikeRiley> they both exist because both float and double existed in c....
14:28:01 <MikeRiley> and in the case of Rc/Funge-98, float was the same as the cell size,,,
14:28:03 <tusho> <AnMaster> MikeRiley, also how many matches should be supported?
14:28:03 <tusho> <AnMaster> I went for 128
14:28:05 <tusho> infinite
14:28:07 <MikeRiley> and i wanted to support double as well...
14:28:12 <AnMaster> tusho, impossible
14:28:16 <AnMaster> tusho, read man regcomp
14:28:18 <AnMaster> see why
14:28:39 <tusho> AnMaster: Just because a C library is broken doesn't mean it's impossible.
14:28:44 <tusho> Kthx.
14:28:44 <AnMaster> since REXP is defined as using POSIX regex that is the only one you can use
14:28:46 <AnMaster> really
14:28:51 <tusho> No. You can implement your own POSIX regex.
14:28:55 <AnMaster> fine
14:28:59 <AnMaster> tell me when you are done
14:29:03 <tusho> I might.
14:29:04 <tusho> It's not hard.
14:29:23 <AnMaster> tusho, http://www.elf-emulation.com/funge/rcfunge_manual.html#REXP
14:30:00 <tusho> AnMaster: I didn't say I'd implement the fingerprint.
14:30:04 <tusho> i said I might implement posix regexps.
14:30:15 <AnMaster> just telling you was is needed
14:30:22 <AnMaster> so you need the extended regex too
14:30:25 <AnMaster> as well as the basic ones
14:30:46 <AnMaster> tusho, and it needs to return same type of errors so it is usable for REXP
14:33:40 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: yeah, but I really don't think making other languages into C is a good idea
14:34:45 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, intersting, freebsd 6.3 doesn't define REG_EEND
14:34:52 <AnMaster> nor REG_ESIZE
14:34:56 <AnMaster> are those POSIX I wonder
14:35:10 <tusho> OH NO
14:35:12 <tusho> THEY'RE NOT POSIX
14:35:18 <tusho> QUICK, AnMaster. STOP SUPPORTING REXP
14:35:20 <tusho> :O
14:35:21 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, nop seems they aren't
14:35:35 <AnMaster> so well I'm going to drop support for those two errors on systems not supporting them
14:36:13 <MikeRiley> did not intend to make funge into c...just added the double concent for floating point,,,most floating point software i write does not use float, but double, float precision is not good enough in my mind...
14:36:41 <MikeRiley> i see no problem dropping errors that are not supported by the underlying system...
14:36:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err about double/float
14:37:00 <AnMaster> double and single precision is more than just C
14:37:12 <MikeRiley> yes, many languages support both...
14:37:15 <AnMaster> separate standard
14:37:32 <AnMaster> IEC 559 iirc
14:38:20 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well I doubt RC/Funge works on anything but Linux if you don't check if those non-standard errors exist on the target platform
14:38:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, but what about if you use arbitrary-precision float
14:38:45 <Deewiant> I think it's somewhat similar to the LONG situation
14:38:50 <Deewiant> though I admit it's not exactly the same
14:39:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would be cool, but would need either storing outside funge space like REFC or such, or arbitrary-precision funge cless
14:39:44 <MikeRiley> may have to change how it is compiled since those errors would produce compile time errors, but otherwise could be made to work on other systems...
14:39:54 <AnMaster> also I got no idea how to implement it
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14:40:11 <MikeRiley> but i could remove the linux only errors, was not aware that i put those in there,,,in general i tried not to use anything that was linux specific...
14:41:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ah, I realized the difference: FPSP/FPDP mandate a certain precision, LONG is just "twice as long as whatever the default is", which is crap
14:41:33 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, #ifdef doesn't work
14:41:38 <AnMaster> they are an enum on glibc systems
14:41:41 <AnMaster> not #defines
14:42:23 <MikeRiley> ??????
14:42:38 <AnMaster> #ifdef REG_EEND
14:42:38 <AnMaster> case REG_EEND: ...
14:42:38 <AnMaster> #endif
14:42:40 <AnMaster> does not work
14:42:47 <AnMaster> REG_EEND is not a #define
14:42:51 <AnMaster> it is in an enum
14:42:53 <AnMaster> on linux
14:43:16 <MikeRiley> oh...i see what you are saying now.... i will probably remove the linux only ones...like i said,,,i tried to avoid linux only stuff,,,,those just managed to slip their way in...
14:43:45 <AnMaster> I'm dropping those, I guess this means holes in the error numbers or?
14:44:19 <MikeRiley> yes, will mean holes...not going to go back and change the error numbers...
14:51:34 <AnMaster> hm I implement 26 fingerprints now
14:52:21 <MikeRiley> that is quite a few!!!
14:53:10 <MikeRiley> Rc/Funge-98 implements 47,,,,i think,,,,
14:54:17 <MikeRiley> but then,,,it implements all the strange stuff that i have come up with,,,,many of which i am sure nobody would ever use!!! !eheheheehheehehehehehehehh
15:00:06 <tusho> AnMaster: #ifdef works with more than just #defines.
15:03:40 <funktio> I've implemented 8 today
15:03:45 <funktio> many trivial ones still left
15:07:36 <AnMaster> tusho, it didn't work here
15:07:38 <AnMaster> I checked
15:10:06 <tusho> still
15:10:09 <tusho> what you said was wrong
15:11:33 <funktio> I'm guessing that P in JSTR should write spaces to the fungespace?
15:11:45 <MikeRiley> yes
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16:01:37 <AnMaster> next versions will probably be 0.3.0, though the previous one was 0.2.1
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16:54:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there?
16:55:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you plan to update mycology with tests soon or something, I'm going to release next cfunge very soon
16:55:24 <AnMaster> as in: today
16:56:12 <AnMaster> except...
16:56:12 <Deewiant> no, I don't
16:56:20 <AnMaster> I'm waiting for mycology to stabilise
16:56:22 <AnMaster> good :)
16:56:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so mycoedge will wait for a while?
16:56:42 <AnMaster> maybe just enough so that ccbi pass it? :P
16:56:51 <Deewiant> something like that ;-)
16:57:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which isn't fair play
16:57:13 <Deewiant> but I'm devoting most of my CCBI time to the rewrite/cleanup anyway
16:57:40 <AnMaster> because next cfunge release won't handle mycoedge (apart from the first part)
16:57:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well, in this case I'm going to make the interpreter work before releasing the tests
16:57:48 <Deewiant> and anyway
16:57:54 <Deewiant> I like to make sure the tests are correct
16:57:59 <AnMaster> true
16:58:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, when will this happen though?
16:58:15 <Deewiant> for instance, that 15-minute mycoedge I released was buggy after the first test
16:58:19 <Deewiant> whenever
16:58:21 <Deewiant> I don't know
16:58:38 <Deewiant> I was writing the new CCBI for most of today and yesterday
16:58:51 <Deewiant> Mycology now says { doesn't work
16:58:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, heh
16:59:02 <Deewiant> so during next week I'll try to get the debugger working
16:59:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is this a rewrite from scratch?
16:59:11 <Deewiant> no
16:59:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ooh cool will you use the new debugger protocol?
16:59:29 <Deewiant> no
16:59:30 <Deewiant> :-P
16:59:35 <Deewiant> later, yes
16:59:41 <AnMaster> well if you made a debugger for it, then I may also implement it
16:59:45 <Deewiant> but for now, I'd like the builtin one to work
16:59:57 <Deewiant> so that I can easily see why stuff that should and did work doesn't any more
17:00:01 <AnMaster> it is broken?
17:00:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway it will need some major changes if it needs to handle MVRS....
17:00:08 <Deewiant> like I said, { doesn't work :-P
17:00:08 <AnMaster> the protocol
17:00:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but I mean the debugger
17:00:25 <AnMaster> not just the instruction {
17:00:39 <Deewiant> I haven't updated my builtin debugger for the changes I've made
17:00:43 <MikeRiley> Deewiant: in the SCKE test, what is supposed to be happening after:
17:00:44 <Deewiant> just commented it out
17:00:51 <MikeRiley> UNDEF: 0"1.0.0.721"H pushed 16777343
17:01:00 <MikeRiley> seems to end up in locked loop.....
17:01:30 <Deewiant> UNDEF: 0"1.0.0.721"H pushed 2130706433
17:01:30 <Deewiant> GOOD: P pushed 0 for socket without data
17:01:31 <Deewiant> GOOD: P pushed nonzero for socket with data
17:01:55 <MikeRiley> P is never executed,,,,so whatever is happening is before P is executed...
17:02:07 <Deewiant> do you have SCKE included in SOCK?
17:02:12 <MikeRiley> no...
17:02:21 <Deewiant> okay
17:02:26 <Deewiant> then I don't know :-P
17:02:34 <Deewiant> if that were the case, I could have said that I haven't tested that case recently
17:02:47 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,
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17:06:35 <MikeRiley> how are you testing for SCKE inclusion in SOCK??? i just included it and mycology says it is not....
17:07:38 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: I think it tries whether H reflects or something
17:08:27 <MikeRiley> fixed that,,,my bad,,,forgot to change SCKE to SOCK when i copied the instructions...
17:08:41 <MikeRiley> same problem tho....but worse....ends up spiking my cpu usage....
17:09:24 <MikeRiley> and again,,,the P is never actually executed...
17:18:31 <MikeRiley> I see a S,B, and K command exected and then nothing
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17:29:41 <AnMaster> oh my
17:29:52 <AnMaster> sf.net changed theme again
17:29:56 <MikeRiley> deewiant: it ends up in a loop where it keeps executing t and spawning ips....
17:30:17 <MikeRiley> IP=190 X=84 Y=19 CMD=t
17:30:18 <MikeRiley> IP=191 X=84 Y=20 CMD=t
17:30:18 <MikeRiley> IP=192 X=84 Y=19 CMD=t
17:30:18 <MikeRiley> IP=193 X=84 Y=20 CMD=t
17:30:19 <Deewiant> heh, well that's not good is it
17:30:29 <MikeRiley> any idea why???
17:30:38 <Deewiant> there's obviously a bug
17:30:43 <MikeRiley> obviously....
17:30:52 <MikeRiley> but need an idea of what to look for....
17:31:12 <Deewiant> well how did it get to y=20 for starters
17:31:27 <MikeRiley> let me see if i can get the code just before that...hold on...
17:31:34 <Deewiant> y=700 or so is where SCKE is
17:32:52 <MikeRiley> SOCK:8502
17:32:52 <MikeRiley> SOCK:done
17:32:52 <MikeRiley> IP=0 X=84 Y=703 CMD=u
17:32:52 <MikeRiley> IP=0 X=84 Y=705 CMD=d
17:32:52 <MikeRiley> IP=0 X=84 Y=711 CMD="
17:32:53 <MikeRiley> IP=0 X=84 Y=721 CMD="
17:32:55 <MikeRiley> IP=0 X=84 Y=723 CMD="
17:32:57 <MikeRiley> IP=0 X=84 Y=743 CMD="
17:32:59 <MikeRiley> IP=0 X=84 Y=744 CMD="
17:33:01 <MikeRiley> IP=0 X=84 Y=38 CMD="
17:33:03 <MikeRiley> IP=0 X=84 Y=39 CMD=#
17:33:05 <MikeRiley> IP=0 X=84 Y=41 CMD="
17:33:07 <MikeRiley> there is the command trace just before y changes to 38...
17:34:08 <Deewiant> ah, I see it
17:34:16 <Deewiant> hm
17:34:41 <MikeRiley> here is something curious:
17:34:59 <MikeRiley> IP=0 X=84 Y=698 CMD=K
17:34:59 <MikeRiley> SOCK:8502
17:34:59 <MikeRiley> SOCK:done
17:34:59 <MikeRiley> IP=0 X=84 Y=703 CMD=u
17:35:09 <MikeRiley> why from 698 to 703??
17:35:22 <Deewiant> because there are spaces between 699-702
17:35:29 <Deewiant> what does B do
17:35:33 <MikeRiley> oh...ok....
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17:35:47 <MikeRiley> IP=0 X=85 Y=696 CMD=B
17:35:47 <MikeRiley> SOCK:8507
17:35:47 <MikeRiley> SOCK:done
17:35:47 <MikeRiley> IP=0 X=84 Y=696 CMD=v
17:35:54 <Deewiant> ah, bind to local port
17:36:48 <Deewiant> any ideas why it would reflect there?
17:37:12 <MikeRiley> let me see if i can find out...
17:38:13 <MikeRiley> bind is returning an error...
17:38:56 <MikeRiley> let me see if i can collect a bit more information about what is being passed to bind
17:39:39 <MikeRiley> ok,,,starting see potential problem, address is 0....
17:40:06 <MikeRiley> so now the problem is, what is B passing a zero...
17:43:04 <Deewiant> zero is inaddr_any, that shouldn't be a problem, or?
17:45:11 <MikeRiley> hmmmmm,,,,ok,,,possible....let me dig a bit deeper...
17:47:01 <MikeRiley> let me get the exact error it is reporting...
17:48:17 <MikeRiley> address already in use....
17:48:51 <tusho> funktio: Ah, hm, you went to the counter.
17:49:06 <tusho> Not quite as challenging as those Rubik's Cubes, I imagine. :P
17:49:56 <AnMaster> cfunge 0.3.0 is released \o/
17:50:08 <MikeRiley> what is new in it???
17:51:11 <MikeRiley> Deewiant: do you actually Kill the socket that was originally bound on that port???
17:52:13 <Deewiant> not necessarily
17:52:18 <Deewiant> does CCBI work for you?
17:53:18 <MikeRiley> if you are not killing the originally bound socket, you cannot bind another one to it...
17:54:34 <Deewiant> Mycology would output that it killed a socket if it did so
17:54:42 <Deewiant> so if it doesn't, I guess it doesn't. does it?
17:55:26 <MikeRiley> i just checked the socket ids that are created and the ones that are killed...you are not killing the originally bound socket,,,,levaing the address already bound....
17:55:31 <MikeRiley> you need to kill that socket...
17:55:44 <MikeRiley> or you cannot bind another one to the same address...
17:57:20 <MikeRiley> so you either need to kill the originally bound socket, or use a different port number on the SCKE tests...preference would be to kill the original socket...
17:57:35 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, see change log
17:57:50 <AnMaster> http://bzr.kuonet.org/cfunge/trunk/annotate/365?file_id=changelog-20080319201658-czs9f8hg18hz0xo7-2
17:57:51 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: just wondering why CCBI works there on both Windows and Linux
17:58:10 <MikeRiley> do not know....but you are leaving a socket connected...
17:58:23 <MikeRiley> you might be doing something different in your SOCK code...
17:58:32 <MikeRiley> mine shows the original socket was never killed...
17:59:46 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, what is the issue?
17:59:55 <AnMaster> bind() two times against same ip/port?
18:00:11 <AnMaster> isn't there a socket option to allow that?
18:00:24 <AnMaster> maybe the D language sets that by default
18:00:41 <MikeRiley> there could be an option for it,,,in which case it should not be used for SOCK...
18:00:54 <MikeRiley> yes,,,there is a resuse option...
18:01:14 <MikeRiley> SO_REUSEADDR
18:01:27 <MikeRiley> which is actually a SOCK available option...is it being used tho in the SCKE tests????
18:01:28 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well maybe the socket code of D sets it by default
18:01:28 <MikeRiley> brb
18:01:33 <AnMaster> or D does some other such stuff
18:01:42 <AnMaster> like just pointing at the old socket
18:02:42 <Deewiant> or what about Mycology setting it
18:02:43 <Deewiant> GOOD: set SO_REUSEADDR with O
18:02:45 <Deewiant> ...
18:03:11 <MikeRiley> back
18:03:17 <AnMaster> hm ok
18:03:36 <MikeRiley> are you doing that with the SCKE socket tho???
18:03:54 <MikeRiley> I see it used on the original socket,,,,but not on the SCKE one...
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18:04:32 <MikeRiley> I see a socket created with S for the SCKE tests,,,,but O is not used on that socket...
18:04:51 <AnMaster> ah
18:04:55 <AnMaster> well then it wouldn't apply
18:05:03 <MikeRiley> exactly
18:05:20 <AnMaster> so Deewiant that explanation doesn't work
18:05:21 <Deewiant> ah well
18:05:25 <Deewiant> I'll look at it at some point
18:05:32 <Deewiant> because I'd very much like to know why CCBI works on this
18:05:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well mycology is broken
18:05:35 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: or does it work, for you
18:05:52 <MikeRiley> do not know about ccbi,,,,do not have it...
18:05:55 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
18:06:01 <Deewiant> can you get it and run it on mycology?
18:06:08 <AnMaster> I will implement SOCK after you fix this, assuming it happens the next few days, if it takes longer I won't have time
18:06:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
18:06:13 <MikeRiley> do you have a linux executable??
18:06:19 <Deewiant> yes
18:06:25 <MikeRiley> let me see if i can grab it then....
18:07:00 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, you will need to chmod +x the binary after extracting the archive, because Deewiant is too lazy to create the archive that way
18:07:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: because .zip files don't carry permission info...
18:07:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why not use .tar.bz2 then?
18:07:57 <Deewiant> because a computer is much more likely to be capable of opening a .zip
18:08:12 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,,hold on....
18:08:13 <Deewiant> .zip for ubiquitousness, .7z for compression
18:08:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, any linux computer will be able to open tar.gz
18:08:45 <AnMaster> and who else would want the linux binary?
18:08:48 <MikeRiley> Inconsistency detected by ld.so: dynamic-link.h: 68: elf_get_dynamic_info: Assertion `! "bad dynamic tag"' failed!
18:08:51 <MikeRiley> cannot run it....
18:08:56 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, nice
18:08:58 <Deewiant> bah, bloody dynamic linking
18:09:06 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: what does ldd say
18:09:13 <MikeRiley> just a sec
18:09:25 <MikeRiley>         not a dynamic executable
18:09:32 <Deewiant> hmm
18:09:42 <Deewiant> that's interesting O_o
18:09:55 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, what libc version?
18:10:04 <MikeRiley> old....
18:10:07 <AnMaster> run /lib/libc.so.6
18:10:17 <AnMaster> yes you can run the library
18:10:20 <AnMaster> in this case
18:10:24 <AnMaster> will print version info
18:10:37 <MikeRiley> 2.2.5
18:10:43 <AnMaster> ccbi binary works under glibc 2.6.1 and 2.8 here
18:10:48 <AnMaster> I don't have any older
18:10:53 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, what is that? Debian stable?
18:11:54 <MikeRiley> suse 8
18:12:02 <AnMaster> maybe time to upgrade anyway
18:12:13 <MikeRiley> long past time actually1!!! eheehheeheheheh
18:12:18 <MikeRiley> just been too busy to bother....
18:12:32 <AnMaster> I doubt Suse 8 even gets security patches any longer...
18:12:45 <MikeRiley> still does not get past the fact mycology has a bug in its socket handling,,,either kill the original socket, or set the reuse option on the new one...
18:12:52 <MikeRiley> i doubt it does as well...
18:12:55 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, hm
18:13:11 <MikeRiley> i have the newest one,,,just have not had teh time to load it....
18:13:54 <MikeRiley> in the meantime,,,i will just have to write my own code for testing SCKE,,,,until mycology gets fixed...
18:13:58 <AnMaster> well I prefer distros like Arch Linux and Gentoo Linux that use rolling releases, so once installed the word "release" have no meaning
18:13:59 <AnMaster> :D
18:14:00 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: lines 684-686, left edge, what happens if you make it so that the GOOD branch goes to where the BAD branch goes and vice versa (i.e. GOOD goes to 686, BAD to 688)
18:14:12 <AnMaster> you just run some upgrade command and it upgrades to the last
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18:14:33 <MikeRiley> let me try Deewiant....just a sec...
18:16:18 <MikeRiley> still get the address already in use error....
18:16:28 <Deewiant> anything else change
18:16:30 <Deewiant> ?
18:16:43 <MikeRiley> BAD: A overwrote original socket
18:17:03 <MikeRiley> nothing else looks different...
18:17:07 <Deewiant> hmm? did you change something before that then?
18:17:11 <MikeRiley> no...
18:17:39 <Deewiant> what I wanted was you to change after the GOOD/BAD, not before, so you should still get the same GOOD there :-P
18:18:05 <MikeRiley> oh....ok,,,,,hold on
18:18:37 <MikeRiley> same error.....
18:19:17 <Deewiant> you must have changed something else since I only wanted you to change something after that...
18:19:31 <Deewiant> essentially: move the leftmost v's in lines 684 and 685 one column to the left
18:19:36 <MikeRiley> get this now.....GOOD: closed original socket with K
18:19:48 <AnMaster> interesting
18:19:50 <Deewiant> and then align the > in line 686 with the one in line 684
18:20:29 <MikeRiley> did that...
18:20:47 <Deewiant> so now you get that additional GOOD
18:20:54 <Deewiant> and nothing else changes?
18:21:33 <MikeRiley> yes,,,get the additional good,,,,and i see K is killing the right socket,,,,still getting the address in use tho....seeing if i can find out why...
18:21:48 <Deewiant> thing is, with that additional GOOD, I now get BAD: trying to receive 10 bytes with R reflected
18:22:11 * AnMaster watches with interest
18:22:55 <AnMaster> I will wait for you to figure this thing out before implementing SOCK
18:23:11 <Deewiant> I honestly do not feel like going through this properly now
18:23:21 <Deewiant> unless it's a simple fix it'll probably be at least a week
18:23:29 <MikeRiley> my R still shows GOOD...
18:25:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then I won't have time to implement SOCK for quite some time
18:25:08 <MikeRiley> the S from the SCKE is now not opening a socket...
18:26:35 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, huh?
18:26:42 <AnMaster> ok this is strange
18:26:49 <AnMaster> and I will wait until you fix it
18:26:55 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, didn't your SOCK use to work?
18:27:09 <MikeRiley> yes,,,,works fine,,,,until i try testing the SCKE stuff....
18:27:15 <MikeRiley> all other tests are good on it....
18:27:28 <MikeRiley> and SCKE fails because the address is not released...
18:28:45 <AnMaster> hrrm
18:29:05 <AnMaster> but when you make it release then S from SCKE still fails?
18:30:31 <MikeRiley> no,,,,S is working,,,,B is not...
18:30:45 <AnMaster> hm
18:30:49 <AnMaster> what is B?
18:31:50 <MikeRiley> B binds a socket to an address
18:34:00 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,getting a bit further now...at one point mycology should be doing a K on socket 9, but is instead killing 0....
18:34:13 <MikeRiley> in my SOCK code i put  asimple change 0 to 9 and then it went through....
18:34:19 <Deewiant> 9??
18:34:23 <MikeRiley> so,,,now why is mycology closing a socket on 0????
18:34:26 <Deewiant> there are only 3 sockets there, no?
18:34:47 <AnMaster> couldn't the order of the sockets differ?
18:34:48 <MikeRiley> never know what the ids are,,,,in my system they end up being 7,8, and 9...
18:34:57 <Deewiant> ah
18:35:06 <AnMaster> ah I see the issue
18:35:11 <Deewiant> so if they are 7,8,9 why does closing 0 not give a BAD?
18:35:14 <MikeRiley> they are simpley file descriptirs,,,,0,1,2 are already used for stdin, stdout, stderr
18:35:15 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, you use fd numbers directly?
18:35:20 <MikeRiley> others could be used for other things...
18:35:21 <AnMaster> ah yes
18:35:23 <MikeRiley> yes i do...
18:35:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, closing 0 would close stdin
18:35:27 <AnMaster> nice one
18:35:35 <Deewiant> ah right, if they're fd numbers
18:35:38 <MikeRiley> yes,,,closing 0 closes stdin...
18:35:41 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, maybe you should protect stdin/stdout/stderr
18:35:43 <Deewiant> well, there's a bug somewhere there
18:35:53 <MikeRiley> i am protecting those now.....
18:36:03 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: and yeah, I'd also say there's a bug if you can use K to close something other than what S has pushed
18:36:03 <MikeRiley> but still does not explain why mycology is trying to close fd 0...
18:36:42 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, REXP use a global buffer right? since the specs doesn't say otherwise that is what I have implemented, and now it is in the release
18:37:05 <AnMaster> so update of fingerprint will not really count as valid from my point of view
18:37:24 <MikeRiley> global buffer???? for what????
18:37:28 <MikeRiley> each ip can have its own....
18:37:33 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, for the compiled regex
18:37:40 <MikeRiley> each ip has its own...
18:37:40 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, sorry your docs doesn't say that
18:37:46 <AnMaster> so I haven't implemented it that way
18:37:51 <AnMaster> and I argue it is an UNDEF
18:37:52 <MikeRiley> but it does not say global either!!!
18:37:59 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, so it is an UNDEF
18:38:06 <MikeRiley> maybe for you....not for me....
18:38:06 <AnMaster> and will be I think
18:38:13 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well the docs are broken then
18:38:18 <AnMaster> I implemented it following the docs
18:38:25 <MikeRiley> i can accept the docs are broken!!!! eheheheheheh
18:38:30 <AnMaster> if you change them now well, I won't update it
18:38:33 <MikeRiley> that is why it is best to ask if uncertain :)
18:38:49 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I didn't even think it would be non-global until now
18:39:01 <AnMaster> so it is an UNDEF
18:39:06 <MikeRiley> the only thing i know of that uses global data is REFC...no other fingerprint does that...
18:39:19 <MikeRiley> and it explicitely says so....
18:39:21 <AnMaster> well TURT do
18:39:31 <AnMaster> and FILE use a global list
18:39:32 <MikeRiley> i think it explicitly says so as well...
18:39:39 <MikeRiley> FILE does NOT use a global list...
18:39:48 <AnMaster> typedef struct sFungeFileHandle {
18:39:49 <AnMaster> FILE      * file;
18:39:49 <AnMaster> fungeVector buffvect; // IO buffer in Funge-Space
18:39:49 <AnMaster> } FungeFileHandle;
18:39:51 <AnMaster> static FungeFileHandle** handles = NULL;
18:39:51 <AnMaster> static fungeCell maxHandle = 0;
18:39:56 <AnMaster> the handles are valid in other IPs
18:40:03 <AnMaster> I think ccbi does it that way too
18:40:10 <AnMaster> and the docs doesn't say otherwise
18:40:13 * AnMaster shrugs
18:40:20 <MikeRiley> does not say they are global either!!!
18:40:23 <AnMaster> and I'm not going to change it
18:40:29 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well it is another UNDEF then
18:40:30 <AnMaster> :D
18:40:33 <MikeRiley> that is ok if you do not want to change it...
18:40:52 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: seems quite silly if multiple IPs can't read from the same FILE?
18:40:56 <AnMaster> both are UNDEF, changing either fingerprint and I won't update it since fingerprints are not versioned and changing fingerprints after release is bad
18:41:01 <Deewiant> s/FILE/file in FILE/
18:41:01 <MikeRiley> they can read from the same files....
18:41:13 <MikeRiley> in my case, i am just using the fd returned from the open calls...
18:41:34 <MikeRiley> if multiple ips know what the fd was, they could all use it...
18:41:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 2135 or even 2145 in fact.
18:41:50 <AnMaster> well live with it, if you don't make the specs clear then people will implement it differently
18:41:50 <MikeRiley> but each ip has its own list of open files....but what is in that list are the fd numbers returned from the os....
18:42:01 <AnMaster> and you can't say they are wrong either
18:42:13 <MikeRiley> will not say they are wrong....
18:42:17 <MikeRiley> just other than intended...
18:42:25 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, make better docs then
18:42:28 <AnMaster> :)
18:42:35 <MikeRiley> never been good at docs!!! eheheheheh
18:43:36 <AnMaster> unless noted otherwise I assume all fingerprint variables that need to persist between calls to the fingerprint use a static variable in the fingerprint file
18:43:40 <AnMaster> in effect being global
18:44:04 <MikeRiley> unless noted otherwise, any fingerprint i create uses local data structures,,,,
18:44:25 <AnMaster> well then it is UNDEF
18:44:27 <MikeRiley> but if ids come from the os for anything, these ids remain as the data....instead of an index...
18:44:41 <Deewiant> eh? screw that
18:44:45 <MikeRiley> you may consider it UNDEF if you want....to me they are defined...
18:44:58 <Deewiant> in most higher-level APIs there's no way to even get the original ID from the OS
18:45:20 <AnMaster> indeed my IDs are translated too
18:45:29 <MikeRiley> not true...you can get the original id from perl, c, pascal, and others...
18:45:44 <AnMaster> well I wouldn't use original ID anyway
18:45:45 <Deewiant> yes, as I said, "higher-level APIs"
18:45:56 <Deewiant> if you use system calls then of course you can get the original...
18:46:34 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I consider anything not mentioned in the fingerprint docs as UNDEF
18:46:35 <MikeRiley> anyhow...does not really matter,,,,underlying mechanism does not matter if the code can conform to the spec of the fingerprint....
18:46:46 <MikeRiley> that is fine...i have no problem with that...
18:46:46 <AnMaster> I implement following the docs
18:47:05 <MikeRiley> whereas, my specs tend to follow what i implemented!! eheheeheheh
18:47:21 <AnMaster> maybe writing spec first would help
18:47:37 <MikeRiley> sometimes i do.....and often they could change during implementation...
18:47:41 <AnMaster> and when you find something not defined in your spec you add it before you implement it in your language
18:47:48 <AnMaster> err program*
18:47:49 <MikeRiley> i always have an idea of what i want to accomplish....
18:47:54 <MikeRiley> just do not always write it down first...
18:48:06 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, so do doc writing at the same time you do programming
18:48:07 <AnMaster> side by side
18:48:21 <MikeRiley> i usually do....usually implement,,,then write the docs....
18:48:33 <MikeRiley> but some things i just tend to assume...and so they do not end up in the docs...
18:48:35 <AnMaster> and if you change yourself, fine, unless you don't change the specs too
18:48:46 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well other ppl assume differently
18:48:57 <MikeRiley> that is why to some extant i do not think the programmer should write teh docs....to easy to assume things that others would not...
18:49:16 <MikeRiley> i agree,,,other people assume differently...
18:49:17 <AnMaster> agreed, but I don't want to reverse engineer your code!
18:49:24 <MikeRiley> which is why you implemented something different than i did...
18:49:39 <Deewiant> just look at your code and look at the docs and make sure that if you had only the docs, you would write the exact same code
18:49:40 <MikeRiley> understandable...just like i would not want to re-engineer yours...so i would ask...
18:50:03 <AnMaster> well I ask when I think it is unclear
18:50:07 <MikeRiley> again,,,i would end up making assumptions that to me are second nature and never even think about,,,
18:50:16 <AnMaster> but I didn't even think global vs. local would be an issue
18:50:32 <AnMaster> because fingerprints like HRTI say they store local data in IP
18:50:39 <AnMaster> so that is explicit too
18:50:40 <MikeRiley> to me, never use glocal without a real need to...keep everything local...that is my assumption about programming in gneral...
18:50:57 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well it is not the case for funge I think
18:51:05 <AnMaster> funge space is pretty global in itself
18:51:12 <MikeRiley> could be,,,just telling you my standard assumptions...
18:51:17 <MikeRiley> yes it is...
18:51:29 <MikeRiley> but IPs do have their own local data...
18:51:43 <MikeRiley> their own stack, own loaded fingerprints, position, delta, etc....
18:51:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw you will have to rework the funge frontend/debugger protocol thing if you want support for MVRS.
18:52:19 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, only fingerprints that store local data in my ips are HRTI and SUBR
18:52:29 <MikeRiley> quite a few of mine store local data...
18:52:45 <Deewiant> HRTI, SUBR, IIPC, TRDS, IMAP, MODE, off the top of my head
18:52:48 <AnMaster> well I guess your docs didn't say, or even Deewiant decided to use global
18:53:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I don't implement IIPC, TRDS, IMAP or MODE
18:53:08 <MikeRiley> yes deewiant, those are others...
18:54:08 <AnMaster> they would all need extensive changes to the core of cfunge
18:54:35 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, what about TIME?
18:54:43 <AnMaster> I use global flag there
18:54:45 <AnMaster> and so does Deewiant iirc
18:55:16 <MikeRiley> i use a local flag....
18:55:30 <AnMaster> well again your fingerprint didn't say so, bad luck
18:55:40 <MikeRiley> again,,,my assumption is everything is local unless it MUST be global...
18:55:51 <AnMaster> it was never written out
18:55:55 <AnMaster> so how should we know
18:55:59 <MikeRiley> ask...
18:56:13 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I didn't know you were still reachable when I implemented it
18:56:17 <MikeRiley> if i am unsure about somebody's intent,,,i will ask them...
18:56:24 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, all I had was the old copy on waybackmachine
18:56:33 <AnMaster> I implemented TIME before your return
18:56:38 <AnMaster> and I followed of CCBI did it
18:56:46 <AnMaster> CCBI *also* use global flag
18:56:54 <MikeRiley> i can accept that,,,,i was not very findable for awhile....but not impossible to find...
18:57:20 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> just look at your code and look at the docs and make sure that if you had only the docs, you would write the exact same code
18:57:21 <AnMaster> try it :)
18:57:38 <MikeRiley> and most likely i would.....because of the assumptions would not change....
18:58:18 <AnMaster> ok so get someone else to write the specs for you?
18:58:24 <MikeRiley> whenever i thought somethign was outside my assumptions,,,i did put it in the docs....if it was not in the docs...then it was too general an assumption for me...
18:58:38 <MikeRiley> that would be the better answer...
18:58:55 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, HRTI states explicitly that it is local to the ip
18:59:07 <MikeRiley> or else others mention what is not clear to them,,,which you have done,,,and i have altered the docs in response...
18:59:13 <MikeRiley> yes it does...
18:59:24 <AnMaster> make no assumptions?
18:59:25 <MikeRiley> only REFC do i recall saying the table is global...
18:59:30 <AnMaster> better than the other way
18:59:53 <MikeRiley> and i assume local unless explicitely something says global...
18:59:53 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, and only HRTI do I recall saying it is local
19:00:00 <AnMaster> so one for each
19:00:07 <MikeRiley> so does MODE say it is local...
19:00:18 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, cats eye say it for each
19:00:23 <AnMaster> well TURT say it is global too
19:00:28 <AnMaster> so 2 then on each
19:00:40 <MikeRiley> TURT makes sense for global since you would have only one device....
19:00:50 -!- asiekierka has joined.
19:00:53 <asiekierka> Eh-lo
19:00:57 <AnMaster> it says so explicitly
19:01:02 <MikeRiley> yes it does...
19:01:18 <AnMaster> not that the TURT docs are perfect
19:01:24 <AnMaster> it got a lot of UNDEF
19:01:38 <AnMaster> like what direction the degrees rotate in
19:01:48 <AnMaster> and if negative or positive y is up or down
19:01:53 <AnMaster> iirvc
19:01:56 <AnMaster> iirc*
19:02:58 <MikeRiley> yeah,,,it was not well defined....again...leaves it up to the assumptions of the implementor...
19:03:28 <MikeRiley> my assumptions were screen coordinates,,,and positive degrees are clockwise...
19:03:29 <AnMaster> and that is an issue
19:03:42 <MikeRiley> yes it is...
19:03:48 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, I reverse engineered CCBI resulting in finding that CCBI's TURT was totally broken
19:03:53 <AnMaster> then fixed that
19:03:58 <AnMaster> and Deewiant fixed his too
19:05:04 <MikeRiley> what was broken about it??
19:05:29 <MikeRiley> my TURT implementation can show the tquine program,,,so at least i made the same assumptions as that guy did...
19:05:42 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well that it didn't work at all for anything but the dots he test in mycology really
19:05:43 <AnMaster> :P
19:05:49 <AnMaster> like lines
19:05:52 <AnMaster> they didn't work
19:06:03 <AnMaster> or changing color, or lifting pen
19:06:25 <Deewiant> er
19:06:28 <Deewiant> it wasn't /that/ bad :-P
19:06:33 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, mine can show the tquine too, except that it is full of small dots from where the pen touch the paper
19:06:45 <Deewiant> and that you probably got from CCBI
19:06:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, when I looked at the svg it looked *that* bad
19:06:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes
19:06:57 <AnMaster> the dots
19:07:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, they are correct aren't they? a real TURT bot would cause those dots too
19:07:42 <Deewiant> that's my opinion and the reason why I put them there
19:08:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well have you been in contact with the author about it?
19:08:29 <Deewiant> no
19:08:35 <AnMaster> hm
19:08:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you never contacted the !Befunge author at all about mycology?
19:08:54 <Deewiant> nope
19:09:00 <AnMaster> why not?
19:09:31 <AnMaster> I would try to report bugs :P
19:09:33 <Deewiant> I just found the most "alive"-looking place (the Esolang wiki) and posted there
19:09:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err email?
19:09:48 <Deewiant> figuring that if people still care, they'd follow that or find it by themselves some other way
19:10:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how long did it take for MikeRiley to find it?
19:10:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I can't be bothered to e-mail 20 people personally about some code I wrote
19:10:16 <AnMaster> and how did you find it MikeRiley?
19:10:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, isn't 20 I think?
19:10:48 <MikeRiley> find what???
19:10:58 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, mycology
19:11:11 <MikeRiley> did a google search on rc/funge-98....
19:11:17 <AnMaster> heh :)
19:12:13 <MikeRiley> mainly wanted to see who had links to it since i was bringing it back to life...
19:12:41 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, and then you got a shock I bet
19:12:46 <MikeRiley> i did....
19:12:53 <AnMaster> being listed as something close to "worst" ;P
19:13:06 <AnMaster> actually not worst, I think FBBI did worse
19:13:24 <MikeRiley> yeah,,,but some of the tests were flawed...like the k ones....but yes,,,gave me a chance to clean up the errors...
19:13:26 <AnMaster> Fungus and GLFunge too
19:13:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you update the mycology result page before you add mycoedge
19:14:00 <MikeRiley> i went off the cat's eye diagnostics, which were all i had,,,,and i passed those without problems...
19:14:22 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, they are hardly very complete
19:14:23 <MikeRiley> do wish mycology was around when i was originally developing thei nterpreter tho...
19:14:28 <MikeRiley> i agree...
19:14:35 <AnMaster> and hard to read too
19:14:39 <MikeRiley> yep...
19:14:48 <MikeRiley> mycology is soooooooooooooooooooooooo much better....
19:14:53 <AnMaster> I *think* I passed all of them, but I'm not sure
19:14:57 <AnMaster> well yeah
19:16:01 <MikeRiley> but then,,,with Rc/Funge-98 being the first fully funge/98 implementation,,,had to expect some problems,,,,
19:16:20 <AnMaster> anyway local per-ip data is kind of painful in cfunge, as it means the fingerprint is no longer tame
19:16:23 <AnMaster> it need a core change
19:16:36 <AnMaster> maybe using some kind of hash table to let fingerprints register their data
19:16:39 <AnMaster> well would work
19:16:44 <MikeRiley> not really,,,just add some additional fields to the ip data structure...
19:16:49 <AnMaster> would be slow though
19:16:53 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, yes that is a core change
19:17:04 <MikeRiley> not very much of one tho...
19:17:21 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well need to mess in ip.c internals too to make it works for t
19:17:42 <AnMaster> just memcpy doesn't work as I need to deep copy pointers
19:17:44 <MikeRiley> not sure why,,,in my t i just copy one ip structure to another, and then replace the stack...
19:18:34 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well not just stack-stack need to be duplicated, loaded fingerprint stacks too, and then HRTI timestamp struct pointer
19:19:00 <AnMaster> actually I don't copy HRTI data to child ip it seems
19:19:03 <AnMaster> I clear it out
19:19:08 <AnMaster> after Deewiant recommended that
19:19:10 <MikeRiley> yeah,,,,at the moment some of those things are static structurs, so copy easily,,,as i replace them with dynamic structurs, i too have to change the copy code...
19:19:30 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
19:19:38 <MikeRiley> brb
19:20:12 <AnMaster> static huh
19:20:17 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, what do you mean
19:20:43 <AnMaster> are number of items on fingerprint opcode stacks limited?!
19:25:38 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, ?
19:27:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, when will you fix the socket ID issue?
19:27:38 <AnMaster> I plan to give mine random IDs if you don't fix it
19:27:43 <AnMaster> and non random if you do fix it
19:29:04 <AnMaster> hm I probably do same model as FILE for the mapping
19:29:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it is just a bug in Mycology, it's using 0 instead of the correct value
19:29:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right
19:29:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so when will the bug be fixed
19:29:37 <Deewiant> like I said, since it seems to be nontrivial, probably next weekend
19:29:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why is it non-trivial?
19:30:06 <AnMaster> just write the ID down using p and later fetch it again
19:30:10 <AnMaster> don't see how that is hard
19:30:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it is written down with p
19:30:48 <Deewiant> I don't know where, though
19:30:53 <AnMaster> check?
19:30:54 <Deewiant> and I can't be bothered to go through the whole thing
19:30:58 <Deewiant> because it's 15 lines
19:30:59 <Deewiant> you check for me
19:31:03 <Deewiant> since it's so easy :-P
19:31:08 <MikeRiley> back
19:31:09 <AnMaster> grep p
19:41:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it would be readable if you wrote my style of befunge :P
19:42:19 <Deewiant> it's not about readability
19:42:23 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
19:42:40 <Deewiant> it's about the fact that I don't know what is on the stack or p'd at any given time
19:43:20 <AnMaster> that is why you write a lot of comments too :D
19:43:39 <AnMaster> hm I may implement SCKE only
19:43:40 <AnMaster> not SOCK
19:43:45 <AnMaster> seems like the best thing to do
19:43:51 <AnMaster> what do you think?
19:44:42 <Deewiant> impossible
19:44:44 <AnMaster> wait hm
19:44:48 <Deewiant> SCKE is unusable without SOCK
19:44:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so SCKE doesn't just add instructions?
19:45:22 <MikeRiley> SCKE just adds 2 instructions...
19:45:22 <AnMaster> it doesn't copy the existing ones
19:45:22 <Deewiant> it adds instructions, yes
19:45:24 <AnMaster> oh well
19:45:33 <AnMaster> it is not a superset of SOCK then
19:45:35 <AnMaster> that is what I mean
19:45:37 <AnMaster> meant*
19:45:45 <Deewiant> no, it's just two additional instructions
19:45:47 <AnMaster> makes it harder to implement in cfunge
19:45:48 <MikeRiley> no,,,it is meant to be used with SOCK...
19:46:33 <MikeRiley> just like JSTR is just 2 instructions that change 2 instructions from STRN...
19:47:07 <Deewiant> no, JSTR is a fingerprint of its own
19:47:12 <AnMaster> well it doesn't depend on accessing internal data of STRN
19:47:18 <AnMaster> so I'd say it is separate
19:47:19 <Deewiant> it's more like the way in which 3DSP requires FPSP
19:47:29 <AnMaster> I implemented JSTR before STRN
19:47:59 <MikeRiley> 3dSP does NOT require FPSP....just easier to use if you have FPSP as well...
19:48:07 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, same for JSTR
19:48:25 <MikeRiley> yes,,,JSTR tho has just the get and put functinos without anything else...
19:48:35 <AnMaster> they are useful on their own
19:48:45 <AnMaster> loading a string from funge-space is useful
19:49:00 <MikeRiley> i am a bit confused why mycology has a test to see if SCKE is included in SOCK,,,since technically it should not be....
19:49:05 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: of course you can load SCKE without SOCK as well, but you can't do much with it, just like you can't do much with 3DSP without FPSP
19:49:05 <MikeRiley> yes,,,i agree it is...
19:49:12 <Deewiant> MikeRiley: because it is included, in GL-funge
19:49:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is not valid I think
19:49:35 <MikeRiley> should not have been,,,,,
19:50:39 <Deewiant> then not, but because it happened in one version I might as well output an UNDEF that says whether it's the case
19:50:50 <MikeRiley> can understand that....
19:50:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, CCBI sock is broken I think, it doesn't actually implement UNIX sockets
19:51:44 <Deewiant> it doesn't?
19:52:43 <AnMaster> err
19:52:54 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, for unix sockets I think the docs make no sense
19:53:00 <AnMaster> C(s ct prt addr -- )Open a connection
19:53:05 <AnMaster> addr:32 bit destination address
19:53:05 <AnMaster> ct:1=AF_UNIX
19:53:05 <AnMaster> 2=AF_INET
19:53:13 <AnMaster> so where is the path of the unix socket
19:53:27 <MikeRiley> ummmmmmmmmmmm missing from the docs?????
19:53:30 <MikeRiley> eheheheheheehheeheheheheh
19:53:33 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, well seems so
19:54:12 <MikeRiley> would not be the first item missing!!!! eheheheheheheeheheh
19:54:12 <AnMaster> and CCBI doesn't implement unix sockets in connect at least
19:54:35 <Deewiant> I just pass AF_UNIX to the socket functions if that was popped
19:54:39 <Deewiant> I don't know anything about unix sockets
19:56:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I suspect trying a unix socket with ccbi could cause it to crash :P
19:57:28 <Deewiant> why's that
19:57:52 <AnMaster> because iirc that is not how they are created
19:57:54 <AnMaster> see man page
19:58:00 <AnMaster> I will check that when I get that far
19:58:27 <MikeRiley> was just looking at unix sockets,,,will have to make a change to the S command documentation...
19:58:41 <AnMaster> good do it now
19:58:50 <AnMaster> as I'm currently implementing SOCK
19:58:53 <AnMaster> so hurry up
20:01:05 <Ilari> Also, there is AF_INET6 (which needs 128-bit address)... :-)
20:01:44 <AnMaster> Ilari, yes that would be SCK6
20:01:57 <AnMaster> which I plan to make if someone else doesn't first
20:02:08 <MikeRiley> hmmmmmmm trying to think of a good backwards-compatable way to add unix addresses...hmmmmmmm
20:02:21 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, what does rc/funge do?
20:02:23 <Ilari> For added fun, there are Linux abstract sockets. They use AF_UNIX but have names beginning with NUL(!).
20:02:40 <AnMaster> Ilari, well that isn't portable
20:02:45 <AnMaster> wouldn't work on *BSD
20:03:16 <MikeRiley> how about:
20:03:22 <MikeRiley> C   (s ct path -1 -- ) Open a connection on unix socket
20:03:22 <MikeRiley> B   (s ct path -1 -- ) Bind a unix socket
20:03:27 <AnMaster> err
20:03:45 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, what do you currently do?
20:03:52 <MikeRiley> i dont actually....
20:03:56 <AnMaster> hahah
20:04:01 <MikeRiley> eheehehehheeheheheheh
20:04:13 <MikeRiley> never bothered with unix sockets!!! eheheheheeheheheh
20:04:28 <MikeRiley> so,,,,for unix sockets,,,C and B are as above....
20:04:49 <Ilari> As sidenote, on systems with unified IPv4/IPv6 stack (such on Linux), only place one needs to understand about IPv4 is when parsing addresses and doing address mapping on resolver replies... But that isn't portable either.
20:05:15 <fizzie> Is that -1 especially necessary in there?
20:05:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, for backward compatibility
20:05:58 <MikeRiley> need a way to distinguies from ports...
20:06:11 <MikeRiley> either that or move ct to the top...but that would break existing code...
20:06:24 <MikeRiley> -1 is not an allowed port,,,so makes it possible to tell the difference...
20:06:35 <Ilari> How is address given for IPv4 sockets? As integer?
20:06:36 <fizzie> Isn't that the address field in "old" C/B?
20:06:48 <MikeRiley> that is the port address...
20:06:48 <AnMaster> seems so
20:07:01 <AnMaster> err
20:07:02 <AnMaster> what?!
20:07:15 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, how do you bind to a specific IP then?
20:07:20 <MikeRiley> ehehehehehe oooppsss....yes,,,,-1 is on the addr argument,,,,port becomes path...
20:07:33 <fizzie> It's (s ct prt addr), and you can't really use a "-1" address since it's 255.255.255.255 in the "standard" representation.
20:07:36 <AnMaster> doesn't work
20:07:42 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,hmmmmmmm
20:07:45 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, addr is a unsigned 32-bit right?
20:07:50 <MikeRiley> yes....
20:07:54 <AnMaster> so doesn't work then
20:08:05 <AnMaster> well it works for me, since my funge is 64-bit
20:08:17 <fizzie> You _could_ spec it as (s ct path -1 anything -- )
20:08:24 <fizzie> Though it's pretty ugly.
20:08:38 <MikeRiley> yeah,,,not sure i like that,,,
20:08:44 <AnMaster> SCKU?
20:08:47 <AnMaster> maybe time for that
20:08:52 <MikeRiley> may have to do that!!! eheheehheeheheheheh
20:08:57 <Ilari> What's that 'ct' there? 's' is socket ID,  'prt' is port and 'addr' is remote address...
20:09:02 <AnMaster> or, retcon and add new instructions
20:09:03 <fizzie> USCK, the "you suck" fingerprint.
20:09:06 <AnMaster> I think that may be better
20:09:14 -!- LinuS has joined.
20:09:17 <fizzie> ct is the address family, I think.
20:09:18 <MikeRiley> or else,,,,it is up to the implementation to keep track of what kind of socket s is....
20:09:32 <AnMaster> because accessing data of another fingerprint in cfunge is.... non-trivial
20:09:36 <AnMaster> to say the least
20:09:38 <MikeRiley> and use the correct set of arguments based upon the type s was created as ...
20:10:19 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, that works fine for me
20:10:39 <MikeRiley> does not work well for me,,,,but can alther the code to use it....
20:11:00 <Deewiant> that doesn't work does it
20:11:10 <Deewiant> since s is the bottom-most argument on the stack
20:11:16 <Deewiant> so you don't know how many cells to pop
20:11:17 <MikeRiley> true....
20:11:49 <MikeRiley> could always do something like: (path s ct prt addr)  path only exists if ct is unix...
20:12:15 <MikeRiley> prt and addr then have no purpose on a unix socket,,,just filler til you can get ct...
20:12:17 <AnMaster> why not use a new letter?
20:12:26 <MikeRiley> because AnMaster does not like adding new letters!!!!
20:12:32 <MikeRiley> eheheehheeheheheheheheh
20:12:32 <AnMaster> well I agree
20:12:39 <Deewiant> how about removing unix sockets altogether and making a fingerprint of their own for that? :-P
20:12:42 <AnMaster> but SCKU is worse
20:12:45 <Deewiant> seems to me that that's the only clean solution
20:12:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is worse
20:12:51 <AnMaster> much worse
20:12:53 <Deewiant> why is that worse
20:12:54 <AnMaster> removing stuff
20:12:57 <AnMaster> that is why
20:13:06 <AnMaster> and that means you have type flag that makes no sense
20:13:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: we're removing something that never worked
20:13:16 <MikeRiley> i think for the moment i like the path on the stack below s.....
20:13:25 <tusho> Why is removing stuff bad?
20:13:27 <tusho> :|
20:13:27 <Deewiant> there can have been no implementation nor any code that wanted the current behaviour
20:13:34 <Deewiant> because the current behaviour is essentially "segfault"
20:13:44 <Deewiant> or that's what I understand from what you've been saying, anyway
20:13:51 <AnMaster> well I think it would be
20:13:52 <AnMaster> or error
20:13:53 <tusho> a software release will less features than the last is a plus.
20:13:56 <AnMaster> probably error instead
20:14:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yeah, so why is removing it bad
20:14:06 <Deewiant> in this case
20:14:09 <MikeRiley> i have to run for now....i will think about what to do with it.....
20:14:11 <Ilari> BTW: When implementing 'I', beware of buggy resolver libraries that can return success with h_length == 0 and bogus h_addr...
20:14:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because it means:
20:14:18 <AnMaster> ct:1=AF_UNIX
20:14:19 <AnMaster> 2=AF_INET
20:14:19 <AnMaster> becomes
20:14:25 <AnMaster> ct must always be 2
20:14:31 <AnMaster> that seems rather silly
20:14:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, agree?
20:14:49 <MikeRiley> in which case could remove ct alltother.....so do not think AF_UNIX should be removed....
20:14:57 <MikeRiley> just C and B altered in a way to allow it,,,,
20:14:58 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, err that would break existing apps
20:15:03 <AnMaster> removing ct I mean
20:15:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so is it better to have to pop port and addr even when they're unused?
20:15:15 <Deewiant> or rather, how is it better
20:15:19 <Deewiant> since you already said that this was "much worse"
20:15:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because those are still used sometimes
20:15:45 <AnMaster> anyway why not just define 3 new fingerprints:
20:15:50 <AnMaster> SCK4 SCK5 SCKU
20:15:54 <AnMaster> and drop the old ones
20:16:03 <fizzie> SCK5?-)
20:16:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, ipv5?
20:16:15 <AnMaster> ???????
20:16:19 <MikeRiley> no...would not break existing apps if the path was placed below the other arguments....then existing ones would work...
20:16:25 <fizzie> There was really no IPv5.
20:16:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes... but if you know you're using unix sockets then you always have to push port and addr
20:16:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, why?
20:16:33 <Deewiant> there was IPv 1 through 6
20:16:50 <Deewiant> only 4 and 6 "really" were, though, as fizzie says. :-)
20:16:55 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:16:58 <AnMaster> hm
20:17:03 <AnMaster> are
20:17:06 <AnMaster> not were
20:17:10 <fizzie> Wikipedia has a useful redirect from IPv5.
20:17:15 <MikeRiley> either that,,,or disallow 255.255.255.255 as an address and use the -1....
20:17:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, to?
20:17:22 <AnMaster> MikeRiley, eww
20:17:36 <fizzie> To Internet Stream Protocol, which used the IP version number field of 5.
20:17:37 <AnMaster> I got an idea
20:17:40 <AnMaster> I know how to solve it
20:17:47 <AnMaster> push 2^32+1
20:17:51 <AnMaster> problem solved
20:18:01 <MikeRiley> would not work on 32-bit funges...
20:18:01 <AnMaster> not valid ipv4
20:18:01 <AnMaster> :D
20:18:07 <AnMaster> oh yeah true :P
20:18:10 <MikeRiley> eheheheheheeh
20:18:24 <MikeRiley> so,,,choices are: (path s ct addr prt) or (s cd path -1)
20:18:29 <MikeRiley> s/cd/ct/
20:18:43 <Deewiant> it's prt addr, not addr prt
20:18:45 <MikeRiley> or break everything and move ct to the top....(i am really really against that)
20:18:53 <AnMaster> I suggest dropping SOCK and going for SCK4/SCK6/SCKU, these would be extended to have additional features too
20:18:55 <AnMaster> to be exact:
20:18:56 <MikeRiley> ok,,,,s/addr prt/prt addr/
20:19:00 <AnMaster> block current ip only
20:19:04 <AnMaster> non-blocking
20:19:11 <AnMaster> block whole process
20:19:39 <AnMaster> what about that?
20:19:54 <AnMaster> or maybe as one fingerprint, but can't think of a good name for it
20:20:01 <AnMaster> NSCK, New Sock
20:20:03 <MikeRiley> got to go.....
20:20:06 <AnMaster> I reserve that name
20:20:07 <fizzie> But you can't really use (s cd path -1) because it's currently in the "prt addr" format, so when you pop the addr, you can't distinguish between -1 and a valid IPv4 address. You'd have to have (s cd path -1 dummyargument) or something. Which perhaps isn't very much better than (path s cd dummyaddr dummyprt)
20:20:07 -!- MikeRiley has quit (" ").
20:20:14 <fizzie> Too late!
20:20:16 <fizzie> Aw.
20:20:40 <AnMaster> in fact current SOCK is quite broken
20:20:47 <fizzie> Well, for the record, I won't be too angry if you make a backwards-incompatible SOCK change and I have to fix fungot.
20:21:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it's fine by me if we semi-formally declare SOCK broken and deprecated
20:21:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, we need to replace it by something better
20:21:29 <AnMaster> NSCK probably
20:21:33 <Deewiant> and I gather that's your SCK4
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20:21:36 <AnMaster> would handle all three families
20:21:45 <Deewiant> well if you can do that cleanly, whatever
20:21:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think there should be one fingerprint for them all
20:22:06 <fizzie> One fingerprint to rule them all, and in the darkness bind(2) them.
20:22:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I will implement SOCK for now because a lot of the mechanism will be shared
20:22:12 <AnMaster> fizzie+++++++++++++++
20:22:13 <AnMaster> :D
20:22:28 <fizzie> Yay, I got incremented.
20:23:19 <fizzie> I should implement some sort of artificial intelligence for fungot, too; since optbot already has one.
20:23:19 <optbot> fizzie: Sure, sure. But not for writing an IRC bot ;)
20:23:29 <fizzie> Spooky!
20:23:44 <AnMaster> heh
20:23:44 <fizzie> optbot; You mean you won't write your own successor?
20:23:44 <optbot> fizzie: i agree with lament
20:23:58 <AnMaster> what did lament say last?
20:24:13 <AnMaster> nothing in my scrollback
20:24:26 <fizzie> [2008-08-23 02:05:08] < lament> can anyone in here upload files to the esoteric archive?
20:24:49 <AnMaster> strange thing to agree with
20:25:48 <fizzie> Actually I already wrote one artificial intelligence thing for fungot, by simply making a full 5-gram model of my logs of this channel, then using that by generating words based on the probabilities given by the 4-gram of already generated words.
20:26:07 <fizzie> So it's pretty close to the pointless and overused markov chain thingie, but still sometimes amusing.
20:26:36 <fizzie> "i'm differentiating between null string and 1/10 to work... it's merely a less harmful master. clean it up, please. i'm allowed to enjoy things that are childish in addition to mature things. i like small and fnord licenses. of course gpl is good for projects like linux... works fine in dos unless you know what you're doing take off every zig... in bed."
20:28:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you pop protocol and type?
20:28:17 <AnMaster> switch (pop) {
20:28:17 <AnMaster> case 1: protocol = ProtocolType.TCP; break;
20:28:17 <AnMaster> case 2: protocol = ProtocolType.UDP; break;
20:28:17 <AnMaster> default: return reverse();
20:28:17 <AnMaster> }
20:28:18 <AnMaster> switch (pop) {
20:28:20 <AnMaster> case 1: type = SocketType.DGRAM;  break;
20:28:22 <AnMaster> case 2: type = SocketType.STREAM; break;
20:28:24 <AnMaster> default: return reverse();
20:28:28 <AnMaster> }
20:28:30 <AnMaster> sorry for spam
20:28:32 <AnMaster> didn't think it was that large
20:28:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so what is your question?
20:28:42 <AnMaster> except TCP is STREAM and UDP DGRAM
20:28:50 <AnMaster> that is how they look from C at least?
20:28:55 <Deewiant> ??
20:29:11 <AnMaster> to create an UDP socket:
20:29:12 <AnMaster>        udp_socket = socket(PF_INET, SOCK_DGRAM, 0);
20:29:17 <AnMaster> for tcp:
20:29:19 <AnMaster>        tcp_socket = socket(PF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, 0);
20:29:25 <fizzie> Huh? The SOCK spec specifies those numbers for type and protocol.
20:29:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes
20:29:40 <AnMaster> http://www.elf-emulation.com/funge/rcfunge_manual.html#SOCK
20:29:54 <fizzie> So what was the issue here?
20:29:56 <AnMaster> but why the duplicate info here I wonder
20:30:19 <fizzie> Well, why the non-working address family? Maybe it's just not too well written. :p
20:30:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, err what?
20:30:50 <AnMaster> the example "<AnMaster>        tcp_socket = socket(PF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, 0);" was from man tcp
20:30:58 <AnMaster> the other from man udp
20:31:05 <AnMaster> I just noticed that we got duplicate info here
20:31:37 <Deewiant> well, it's not necessarily duplicate is it
20:31:47 <Deewiant> there can be more than one stream or datagram protocol
20:31:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes because TCP *is* STREAM and UDP is DGRAM
20:31:59 <Deewiant> although I guess it is in the sense that SOCK only supports TCP + UDP
20:32:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, those sockets are created in other ways
20:32:31 <Deewiant> anyhoo I'm going to sleep ->
20:32:40 <fizzie> Well, I'd say SOCK 'S' has typ and protocol fields because socket() has them too.
20:33:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, well protocol is just 0 for udp and tcp according to the man pages
20:35:06 <fizzie> Yes, but it's not like it's illegal to give it the TCP protocol explicitly and not rely on the fact that in AF_INET the default stream and datagram protocols are tcp and udp.
20:35:22 <fizzie> And you need to pop the numbers anyway.
20:35:41 <AnMaster> ah hm
20:35:51 <AnMaster> what are those protocol numbers then?
20:36:53 <fizzie> If you're asking about the numbers, there are both #define constants (IPPROTO_TCP and IPPROTO_UDP) and the getprotobyname() function to get them.
20:37:26 <fizzie> Incidentally, somehow I've always assumed that if S reflects, it would have popped all the arguments. Does that CCBI code you pasted reflect after popping the first invalid argument?
20:37:37 <AnMaster> IPPROTO_TCP is not defined in some header then?
20:37:55 <fizzie> I'm not sure how standard that constant is.
20:38:18 <fizzie> RC/Funge-98 at least uses getprotobyname("tcp") and getprotobyname("udp") to get the numbers.
20:38:37 <fizzie> Which I noticed when fungot failed to work in a chroot jail because /etc/protocols was not accessible.
20:39:10 <AnMaster> ah
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20:42:48 <fizzie> Well, POSIX does specify exactly, that with AF_INET always SOCK_STREAM and proto=0 becomes IPPROTO_TCP, and SOCK_DGRAM becomes IPPROTO_UDP, and that <netinet/in.h> will have at least most of those defines. So if you wanted to, I guess you could pop and just discard the protocol field. Or just pop and verify it agrees with the "type" field.
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20:47:10 <fizzie> "hm, that's odd :p. but, fnord? the quantum version of "internet relay programming"? : fnord, fnord, fnord"
20:47:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, I need to take care of it for unix sockets though iirc?
20:47:52 <AnMaster> fnord?
20:47:57 <AnMaster> f nor d?
20:48:00 <fizzie> "did you download the fnord files? to update your file to the latest, do cvs update filename. always a good idea to make a program that'll be a bit longer than ihope's version"
20:48:15 <AnMaster> cvs?
20:48:16 <AnMaster> eww?
20:48:17 <fizzie> I mapped all out-of-vocabulary words (mentioned <2 in my logs) to fnord.
20:48:37 <fizzie> Fnord is a Discordianist term.
20:48:45 <AnMaster> err
20:48:51 <AnMaster> what is "Discordianist"?
20:49:38 <fizzie> Someone who practices Discordianism, maybe. Just see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism or read the Illuminatus! trilogy.
20:49:57 <fizzie> (Or maybe don't read, I'm not very certain it was a particularly good book.)
20:51:57 <fizzie> It's a bit like Pastafarianism or that Invisible Pink Unicorn thing, except older and maybe not quite that similar.
20:52:40 <fizzie> I should port that babble-generator to Funge-98 so that I could bolt it into fungot, though. Calling with = would be too much cheating.
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21:17:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, is it perl?
21:17:11 <AnMaster> then you could use PERL fingerprint
21:18:06 <fizzie> It's C++, actually.
21:18:20 <fizzie> Just had the urge.
21:18:28 <fizzie> And still cheaterooing.
21:20:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there?
21:20:41 <AnMaster> well I got some weird error by listen()
21:20:44 <AnMaster> to be exact:
21:20:48 <AnMaster> operation not supported
21:21:07 <AnMaster> very strange
21:21:12 <fizzie> If he went to sleep 22:32, I doubt he's still awake.
21:21:21 <AnMaster> ah he did?
21:21:23 <AnMaster> oh well
21:21:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, no issue
21:21:30 <AnMaster> time is 22:21 now
21:21:30 <AnMaster> :D
21:21:37 <AnMaster> so i got 11 minutes
21:21:42 <AnMaster> before he goes to bed
21:21:44 <AnMaster> ;)
21:21:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, so what timezone did you mean?
21:21:57 <AnMaster> not CEST, nor UTC
21:22:02 <fizzie> His, and mine; EET.
21:22:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, well UTC is more portable
21:22:26 <fizzie> Sure, sure. Maybe I should switch my timestamps to that.
21:22:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, Use unix timestamps!
21:23:03 <fizzie> I can't do modulo 86400 very well in my head.
21:23:17 <fizzie> EOPNOTSUPP should come if the socket is not of the listen()able type, but I'm sure you already read that man page.
21:23:43 <AnMaster> yes
21:23:49 <AnMaster> and that makes no sense
21:23:59 <AnMaster> GOOD: Created a PF_INET, SOCK_STREAM TCP socket with S
21:23:59 <AnMaster> UNDEF: S pushed 0
21:23:59 <AnMaster> GOOD: set SO_REUSEADDR with O
21:23:59 <AnMaster> GOOD: bound to local port 51959 with B
21:23:59 <AnMaster> ergh: Operation not supported
21:24:00 <AnMaster> BAD: trying to set listening mode with backlog size 1 with L reflected
21:24:02 <AnMaster> GOOD: closed socket with K
21:24:08 <AnMaster> how is that not listenable
21:25:00 <fizzie> If your bind() call succeeds, it is indeed quite strange why it wouldn't be listenable.
21:25:12 <AnMaster> bind() is successful
21:30:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah valgrind to the rescue:
21:30:07 <AnMaster> ==9842== Syscall param socketcall.bind(my_addr..sa_family) points to uninitialised byte(s)
21:30:58 <AnMaster> shouldn't have been successful though
21:31:22 <AnMaster> hm still:
21:31:23 <AnMaster> BAD: trying to set listening mode with backlog size 1 with L reflected
21:33:47 <fizzie> Indeed. I took a quick peek at the Linux kernel sources, and I only saw EOPNOTSUPP in the default proto_ops functions; when the socket structure is filled with TCP ones, there did not seem any obvious paths that would return EOPNOTSUPP any more.
21:34:15 <fizzie> Of course that's assuming you run Linux there.
21:34:17 <AnMaster> so how to track this down
21:34:22 <AnMaster> yes Linux
21:34:26 <AnMaster> Linux tux.lan 2.6.25-gentoo-r7-1 #2 Sun Aug 3 13:19:47 CEST 2008 x86_64 AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 3300+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
21:35:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, so you mean protocol is bad?
21:35:54 <fizzie> It looks like it should return EINVAL if a (tcp) socket is connected, not bound, not a stream socket, or things like that.
21:35:55 <AnMaster> I just use 0 currently
21:36:02 <fizzie> 0 and SOCK_STREAM should be just fine.
21:36:08 <fizzie> With AF_INET, of course.
21:36:20 <AnMaster> AF_INET indeed
21:36:41 <fizzie> I guess you could print out the numbers you give to socket, bind and listen and check that they make sense.
21:37:04 <AnMaster> I checked in gdb that it is really AF_INET
21:37:17 <fizzie> And SOCK_STREAM?-)
21:37:34 <AnMaster> a sec
21:38:04 <AnMaster> ah
21:38:07 <AnMaster> hm
21:38:22 <AnMaster> that was the issue
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22:08:26 <tusho>     SCHEME. SCHEME NOMADS.
22:09:16 <Slereah_> NO NADS
22:09:19 <AnMaster> well my SOCK works for mycology
22:09:32 <Slereah_> Ew. Your sock is full of mushrooms.
22:09:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mycology fails to clock it's sockets
22:09:47 <AnMaster> ==11003== FILE DESCRIPTORS: 4 open at exit.
22:09:47 <AnMaster> ==11003== Open AF_INET socket 5: 127.0.0.1:51959 <-> 127.0.0.1:37397
22:09:47 <AnMaster> ==11003==    at 0x35FAEC0C00: accept (in /lib64/libc-2.6.1.so)
22:09:47 <AnMaster> ==11003==    by 0x418756: FingerSOCKaccept (SOCK.c:135)
22:09:55 <tusho> NOMADS
22:09:58 <AnMaster> it forget to close the accepted one
22:09:59 <oerjan> Slereah_: everyone has nads
22:10:52 <Slereah_> Even girls?
22:11:27 <oerjan> yes
22:12:47 <oerjan> hm "the vernacular, or slang, use of "gonads" (or "nads") usually only refers to the testicles"
22:13:09 <oerjan> THAT'S UNSCIENTIFIC
22:13:21 <Slereah_> the word "nads" isn't scientific.
22:13:37 <Slereah_> NADS TO THE BONE
22:14:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, two bugs so far:
22:14:45 <AnMaster> 1) no newline between SOCK and STRN:
22:14:50 <AnMaster> UNDEF: SCKE not included in SOCK
22:14:50 <AnMaster> Testing fingerprint SCKE... not loaded.
22:14:50 <AnMaster> Testing fingerprint STRN... loaded.
22:14:50 <AnMaster> GOOD: A works
22:14:59 <AnMaster> should be an empty line there
22:15:11 <AnMaster> 2) mycology fails to clock it's sockets (the one it accept()ed)
22:17:02 <AnMaster> night all
22:19:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, there?
22:19:27 <AnMaster> url to fungot files again
22:19:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
22:28:10 <fizzie> Was getting ready for the sleepitude. http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt and fungot-load-freenode.b98.txt should be a matching pair, although not the absolutely latest version.
22:28:19 <fizzie> Actually that one is still with FNGR.
22:28:30 <fizzie> You probably want the FING-enabled version.
22:29:09 <fizzie> Updated the latest version there.
22:29:22 <fizzie> It has a disabled and incomplete http:// URL handler and other cruft like that.
22:30:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes I want FING
22:30:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, and the reason I want this stuff is that it is the only SOCK app I know
22:32:34 <fizzie> Guessed as much.
22:32:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, you use SCKE too?
22:32:49 <AnMaster> well I don't have that yet
22:32:54 <AnMaster> so will have to wait till tomorrow
22:32:57 <AnMaster> when I implement that
22:32:59 <fizzie> Yes, but only for the http:// URL thing.
22:33:14 <AnMaster> so i can just move that out one column to avoid it then?
22:33:25 <fizzie> Yes, or delete the EKCS line and the one under it.
22:33:43 <AnMaster> why do you load NULL?
22:34:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, ?
22:34:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, also where do you set channel to join?
22:35:09 <fizzie> Because I don't really know how to use FING, I guess. At least on RC/Funge-98 FING's 'X' refused to swap things if one of the specified letters and no special semantics loaded on top of it.
22:35:19 -!- dogface has joined.
22:35:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah true
22:35:40 <fizzie> And there's no automatic channel-joining, I just ^raw JOIN #esoteric every time I restart it. :p
22:35:58 <AnMaster> sh: vR: command not found
22:35:58 <AnMaster> sh: : command not found
22:35:58 <AnMaster> sh: : command not found
22:35:59 <AnMaster> err what?
22:36:15 <tusho> AnMaster: why did you try and run it as a shell script
22:36:16 <tusho> per se?
22:36:26 <AnMaster> I didn't
22:36:27 <AnMaster> ...
22:36:30 <tusho> you did './prog'
22:36:34 <tusho> there's no shebang
22:36:37 <tusho> so it runs it as a shell script
22:36:37 <AnMaster> no
22:36:38 <AnMaster> ...
22:36:51 <AnMaster> was misaligned code path
22:36:53 <AnMaster> in loader
22:36:56 <AnMaster> so it hit a =
22:36:59 <fizzie> Well, err, I guess you could have hitted a =.
22:37:09 <AnMaster> yes as I said
22:37:20 <fizzie> I had already written that comment and didn't want it to go to waste.
22:37:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, should there be any output?
22:37:55 <AnMaster> f2P2f > f2P2f > f2P2f > f2P2f
22:37:58 <fizzie> If you haven't changed it, it should print all raw messages received from the IRC server.
22:38:00 <AnMaster> locks up in such a loop
22:38:06 <fizzie> That sounds familiar.
22:38:06 <AnMaster> wonder why
22:38:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe due to now SCKE?
22:38:36 <AnMaster> so remapping issues?
22:39:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway any idea of that error
22:39:07 <fizzie> When I had it, it was because of the "FILE" fingerprint usage immediately before it, when it loads the state file.
22:39:36 <AnMaster>  save settings from the loader
22:39:36 <AnMaster> >  f2P  41p  #vIv
22:39:36 <AnMaster> v G1fP1f   p10>#<0a".sserdda PI dilavnI">:#,_@
22:39:40 <fizzie> It uses FING to swap G/K and B/P so that I can use both FILE's and STRN's G/P commands simultaneously. But it should swap them back.
22:39:40 <AnMaster> seems to be that f2P
22:39:59 <fizzie> Actually I'm not sure I have ever tested whether it works if the persistence state file does not exist. :p
22:40:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, so what file should I touch then?
22:40:51 <AnMaster> ah no
22:40:56 <AnMaster> that gives "State bad"
22:41:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, so how do I create a good state?
22:41:04 <AnMaster> sigh
22:41:12 <fizzie> You might be able to use a file which has 10 newline characters.
22:41:25 <fizzie> Although I really should fix the failure code path to work too.
22:41:45 <fizzie> I think there's a single ) missing from that path, actually.
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22:42:12 <AnMaster> ah
22:42:14 -!- testthingy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:42:19 <AnMaster> now I didn't have it in a chroot
22:42:23 <AnMaster> that is why I quit it
22:42:41 <AnMaster> still seems like SOCK works quite well :D
22:43:01 <fizzie> Well, it's supposed to be safe... although it's quite easy to have a misplaced < make it run into a 'o' and start generating fancily named files.
22:43:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, it doesn't close FD on quit
22:43:36 <AnMaster> ==15034== Open AF_INET socket 3: 192.168.0.64:37119 <-> 85.188.1.26:6667
22:43:37 <AnMaster> ==15034==    at 0x35FAEC1267: socket (in /lib64/libc-2.6.1.so)
22:43:37 <AnMaster> ==15034==    by 0x41918B: FingerSOCKcreate (SOCK.c:358)
22:43:37 <AnMaster> ==15034==    by 0x40E688: HandleFPrint (interpreter.c:135)
22:43:51 <fizzie> Probably not, no. It just gets a "irc read failed" and hits a @.
22:43:55 <AnMaster> other than that:
22:43:59 <AnMaster> ==15034== LEAK SUMMARY:
22:43:59 <AnMaster> ==15034==    definitely lost: 0 bytes in 0 blocks.
22:43:59 <AnMaster> ==15034==      possibly lost: 0 bytes in 0 blocks.
22:43:59 <AnMaster> ==15034==    still reachable: 40 bytes in 3 blocks.
22:43:59 <AnMaster> ==15034==         suppressed: 0 bytes in 0 blocks.
22:44:00 <AnMaster> :D
22:44:34 <fizzie> One could add "21gC" before the @s in there in most places to fix that.
22:44:54 <fizzie> Have to go to sleep now, wake-up in six hours. Congratulations on the SOCK; now I could use cfunge to run fungot too.
22:45:00 <tusho> 21gC...
22:45:03 <tusho> so close...
22:46:21 <AnMaster> tusho, so close to what?
22:46:27 <tusho> 2g1c, duh. :P
22:46:31 <AnMaster> err
22:46:32 <AnMaster> and?
22:46:37 <AnMaster> what about 2g1c?
22:46:39 <tusho> don't google it :)
22:48:07 <AnMaster> tusho, well I haven't googled but now I remember what you mean
22:48:16 <AnMaster> still you are too young to browse such sites
22:48:26 <AnMaster> your parents should add a filter
22:48:29 <tusho> haha
22:48:29 <AnMaster> ;P
22:48:36 <tusho> i haven't actually seen 2g1c
22:48:40 <tusho> but i've been desensitised to goatse
22:48:44 <tusho> and tubgirl.
22:49:22 <AnMaster> aren't you going to congratulate me on my SOCK too?
22:49:29 <oklopol> i never understood how goatse got so famous, i've seen much bigger assholes
22:49:31 <AnMaster> or is that just fizzie who will do
22:49:44 <AnMaster> oh well
22:49:47 <AnMaster> night all I guess
22:49:52 <oklopol> night
22:49:57 <tusho> http://www.flickr.com/photos/fuxoft/2023343777/sizes/o/ LMAO
22:50:15 <oklopol> yeah that's what i referenced in our last talk
22:51:13 <dogface> I've seen a small portion of goatse, black-and-white and distorted.
22:51:24 <tusho> dogface: From ELER?
22:51:32 <tusho> Seriously. Goatse isn't that bad.
22:51:38 <dogface> What is ELER?
22:51:40 <tusho> Oh.
22:51:47 <tusho> Everybody Loves Eric Raymond.
22:51:53 <tusho> It's a comic about linux developers and stuff.
22:51:58 <tusho> They all live in an apartment.
22:52:01 <tusho> Also Eric S. Raymond.
22:52:07 <tusho> http://geekz.co.uk/
22:52:11 <dogface> Probably not.
22:53:02 <tusho> actually anyone shocked by goatse would just get a wtf from me
22:53:04 <tusho> it's just an anus.
22:53:40 <oklopol> you're not old enough to be shocked by anything
22:53:57 <tusho> yea i am, goatse actually did freak me out first time
22:53:58 <tusho> but then
22:53:59 <tusho> I was like 8
22:54:07 <tusho> :-p
22:54:28 <oklopol> i guess i was somewhat impressed by the commitment it must have required
22:55:09 <oklopol> god you're lucky, when i was 8, we didn't even have modem iirc
22:56:40 <tusho> i got interwebnet at 4 :\
22:57:45 <oklopol> i know
22:58:39 <tusho> :D
22:58:48 <tusho> hey oklopol
22:58:52 <oklopol> hey tusho
22:58:53 <tusho> i'll like try and get you that £20 tomorrow
22:58:57 <tusho> or like the day after that
22:58:58 <tusho> I don't know
22:59:16 <oklopol> well do it fast so i can start spending it!
22:59:35 <tusho> spend it now, get it later :D
23:04:24 <dogface> I learned Pascal at an early age.
23:04:49 <dogface> The time period was known as Borland Delphi 4.
23:09:07 <dogface> So, before 1999.
23:09:47 <psygnisf_> oklopol
23:09:48 <dogface> tusho, what did you know in 1999?
23:09:48 <psygnisf_> dogface
23:09:51 <oklopol> psygnisf_
23:09:56 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive.
23:09:59 <tusho> dogface: things.
23:10:01 <psygnisfive> damn you freenode!
23:10:07 <dogface> psygnisfive: later.
23:10:11 <psygnisfive> :(
23:10:24 <dogface> I have important things to do.
23:10:34 <tusho> dogface: Like ask me what I knew in 1999?
23:10:41 <dogface> Yeah.
23:10:53 <oklopol> in 1999, i knew more than you, tusho.
23:10:57 <oklopol> take that!
23:11:05 <tusho> oklopol: in 1999, you were older than me.
23:11:06 <tusho> take that!
23:11:12 <dogface> In 1991, most people knew more than me.
23:11:12 <oklopol> :<
23:11:24 <tusho> dogface: Uh, I knew some things I guess. I dunno. An example of an answer to what you're asking? :P
23:11:27 <oklopol> tusho: that hit me hard.
23:11:30 <lament> oh wow
23:11:44 <lament> somebody used dpkg dependency resolver logic to solve sudoku
23:11:46 <tusho> oklopol: :D
23:11:47 <dogface> Uh oh, the ops have come to take us away.
23:11:52 <tusho> lament: yes, so 3 days ago
23:12:03 <tusho> lament: also ... resolvers are meant to uhh you know... resolve
23:12:05 <oklopol> what's weird about that?
23:12:07 <tusho> i don't think it's that crazy :D
23:12:10 <tusho> i mean
23:12:13 <lament> tusho: your face is so 3 days ago
23:12:14 <tusho> any resolver which couldn't do it
23:12:16 <tusho> would kind of suck.
23:12:18 <tusho> as it couldn't resolve
23:12:18 <psygnisfive> sudoku is simple to program a solver for. o.o;
23:12:32 <dogface> I have an essay to write. If I'm mistaken, not getting this essay done within the next half hour will result in me not being accepted into Rose-Hulman.
23:12:39 <dogface> So yeah. See you later.
23:12:44 -!- dogface has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]").
23:12:47 <oklopol> what's rose-hulman
23:12:51 <lament> psygnisfive: they didn't. They used dpkg instead.
23:13:21 <tusho> dpkg is a progarm.
23:13:24 <tusho> that resolves things.
23:13:31 <tusho> sudoku is a thing that is resolved.
23:13:31 <lament> dogface missed a crucial "not" in his sentence
23:13:33 <tusho> so...
23:13:41 <oklopol> :P
23:13:43 <oklopol> indeed
23:13:50 <oklopol> or not
23:14:06 <lament> if not, he better not write that essay :)
23:14:32 <tusho> lament: he could be mistaken about something else.
23:14:42 <lament> true
23:14:54 <AnMaster> <lament> somebody used dpkg dependency resolver logic to solve sudoku
23:14:56 <AnMaster> link?
23:15:20 <lament> AnMaster: http://algebraicthunk.net/~dburrows/blog/entry/package-management-sudoku/
23:15:46 <oklopol> someone wake me up in 7 hours
23:15:52 <oklopol> like, yell my name in caps
23:16:00 <oklopol> i'm too lazy to set an alarm clock
23:16:23 <oklopol> sudoku's can just be brute-forced
23:16:32 <oklopol> 9x9 ones
23:17:16 <lament> your mom can just be brute-forced
23:17:31 <lament> 81 times
23:17:40 <tusho> oklopol: i could make optbot do that
23:17:41 <optbot> tusho: hah
23:17:43 <tusho> but i won't
23:17:46 <tusho> optbot: :)
23:17:46 <optbot> tusho: that should explain the equivalence, the first uses NEXT while the second uses NEXT FROM
23:17:50 <oklopol> tusho: do what?
23:17:52 <tusho> oklopol: why not set an alarm on your computer
23:17:52 <oklopol> solve a sudoku?
23:17:55 <psygnisfive> oklopol!
23:17:55 <oklopol> oh!
23:18:01 <oklopol> wake me up k k
23:18:01 <tusho> that's easier than a real alarm
23:18:03 * psygnisfive sits on oklopol
23:18:12 <oklopol> yay i'm a chair
23:18:26 <tusho> with a penis
23:18:39 <psygnisfive> im sitting on his chest, you pervert.
23:18:59 <oklopol> i need to sleep, don't forget to wake me up ->
23:19:08 <tusho> i won't wake you up oklopol!
23:19:09 <tusho> <3!
23:19:10 <lament> fifteen men on oklopol's chest
23:19:16 <lament> yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum
23:19:29 <psygnisfive> dont need rum to get oklopol naked with a bunch of guys
23:21:27 <oklopol> yeah i just love gay gangbangs, just bring it on, i can take it.
23:21:28 <oklopol> ->
23:21:38 <psygnisfive> night oklopol <3
23:28:43 <lament> oklopol: does your girlfriend also love gay gangbangs?
23:32:10 <psygnisfive> she likes watching them!
23:32:17 <lament> awesome
23:34:01 <psygnisfive> yeah
23:34:06 <psygnisfive> wanna join in? she'd love to watch
23:38:20 <oklopol> glaaah i can't sleep
23:45:11 <tusho> oklopol: cool
23:45:13 <tusho> let's have sex
23:45:15 <tusho> wait wut
23:45:16 <tusho> optbot!
23:45:16 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i don't know how to find any prior discussion though.
23:45:20 <tusho> haha
23:45:22 <tusho> how ironic
23:49:33 <psygnisfive> oklopol
23:49:36 <psygnisfive> since you cant sleep
23:49:40 <psygnisfive> lets talk about english syntax :)
23:54:03 <oklopol> nono i have to tryyyy
23:54:12 <oklopol> early morningggg
23:55:34 <tusho> psygnisfive: a subject you don't appear to be very good at.
23:55:52 <psygnisfive> oh? how do you figure?
23:55:54 <oklopol> "lets"?
23:57:23 <tusho> and "cant"
23:57:35 <tusho> and, uh, the general lack of punctuation
23:57:38 <tusho> (Not that I'm any better.)
23:58:31 <oklopol> i'm perfect, but you don't see capitals in my irc speech

2008-08-25:

00:02:25 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/music/random/skkssj.mid enjoy the fruit of my tired brain
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00:10:31 <psygnisfive> tusho: punctuation is a matter of orthography, not syntax
00:41:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | not much more readable though.
00:43:20 -!- dogface has joined.
00:43:32 <dogface> I'm back, yay.
00:44:03 <psygnisfive> syntax!
00:46:09 -!- AnMaster has quit (No route to host).
00:46:43 <dogface> Semantics?
00:49:17 <psygnisfive> well, we could do that eventually
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00:51:25 <psygnisfive> to the pm!
00:51:54 <dogface> Oh.
00:52:21 <dogface> I'm still only taking a break between essay writings.
00:52:34 <dogface> One of many breaks.
00:55:50 <psygnisfive> good
00:55:54 <psygnisfive> during your break
00:55:59 <psygnisfive> you should describe english syntax :p
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01:09:50 <oklopol> cool stuff, i need to wake up in 5 hours.
01:10:55 * dogface starts a fire near oklopol
01:10:57 <dogface> Now you can be warm.
01:12:50 <oklopol> thx!
01:14:54 <dogface> You're welcome.
01:27:05 -!- AnMaster has joined.
01:33:14 <dogface> And the fire is an invisible fire, so it won't do any damage. At least, I think that's how it works.
01:36:26 <dogface> We'll need to test.
01:36:31 <dogface> optbot!
01:36:31 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hi psygnisfive.
01:36:48 <dogface> Thank you. As optbot instructed, we will now douse psygnisfive in methanol.
01:36:48 <optbot> dogface: presumably
01:36:58 <dogface> Oh, don't you doubt it.
01:37:03 * dogface does dousings
01:37:05 <psygnisfive> hahaha
01:37:11 <psygnisfive> methanol? but why? :(
01:37:15 <dogface> And now we light him on fire, and nothing will happen!
01:37:24 <dogface> Because methanol fires are invisible and therefore harmless!
01:37:34 <psygnisfive> well
01:37:40 <psygnisfive> being as how its evaporating off my skin
01:37:44 <psygnisfive> before burning
01:37:51 <psygnisfive> it might not be so OH MY GOD IT BURNS
01:38:04 <dogface> Uh oh.
01:38:13 <dogface> Calm down, I didn't even light you yet.
01:38:22 * dogface submerges psygnisfive in methanol, so as to prevent evaporation
01:38:31 * dogface ignites psygnisfive using the toothpaste-and-potato method
01:38:34 <psygnisfive> if im submerged it wont burn me :P
01:38:37 <dogface> Have fun.
01:38:55 <dogface> Nitpicker.
01:39:00 <psygnisfive> things dont burn without contact with oxygen :D
01:39:03 <psygnisfive> ::picks your nits::
01:39:25 <dogface> I advise you to exhale, then.
01:39:27 <psygnisfive> mm yeah thats right baby.. ::fondles your nits:: mmm you like that dont you
01:39:31 <dogface> Which you're already doing, as you're speaking.
01:39:35 <psygnisfive> *typing
01:39:44 <dogface> I'm afraid my nits' nerves do not attach to mine.
01:40:05 <psygnisfive> D:
01:40:08 <psygnisfive> awesome
01:40:15 <psygnisfive> im totally into nit torture
01:40:28 <psygnisfive> ::puts your nits in a clamp::
01:41:54 <dogface> And it doesn't even hurt!
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02:49:01 <oklopol> mörning Sgeo
02:49:15 <Sgeo> Hi oklopol
02:49:43 <dogface> Ellö.
02:49:56 <oklopol> i cannot sleep and it is not good
02:50:15 <dogface> Is that a diaeresis ör an umlaut? Unicöde doesn't distinguish between them.
02:50:26 <oklopol> it's an ummie
02:50:40 <dogface> Coöl.
02:50:52 <dogface> That means, öf course, that "coöl" isn't pronounced "co-ol".
02:51:30 <oklopol> i have no idea what all these characters are
02:51:35 <Sgeo> ¿
02:51:52 <oklopol> i only see them correctly on the, err, what'sitcalledbar
02:52:10 <oklopol> this typoing bar here
02:52:30 <oklopol> (couldn't correct that typo, cuz it was hilarious)
02:52:54 <Sgeo> fatralhilirity
02:53:06 <Sgeo> </nonsenseinessaafdS>
02:53:19 * Sgeo is slightly hyper right now
02:57:50 <dogface> Sgeo, you clearly need to meet... that guy I said Aftran should meet, assuming I actually said Aftran should meet him rather than just asking if he's met him.
02:58:15 <dogface> Instruct all the Siners to send him a friend request simultaneously.
02:58:18 <Sgeo> Wasn't paying attention to chat/wasn't in chat. Who?
02:58:23 <Sgeo> And you do that.
02:59:32 <dogface> Oops, I accidentally changed the topic of a completely different channel rather than telling you in here. Oh well.
03:00:34 <Sgeo> "accidentally"?
03:00:51 <dogface> A typo.
03:02:43 <dogface> Actually, it would be better if, instead of meeting the one who calls himself James, you encouraged people to call Normish by its proper name, which is Normish: The Massively Democratic Internet Server.
03:07:43 <Sgeo> I don't encourage people to Normish anything, actually
03:09:11 <Sgeo> Also, we can now play NetHack on Normish. My question is, WHY?
03:15:12 <dogface> We can?
03:15:19 <dogface> Brilliant.
03:15:35 <dogface> This makes it so that we don't have to play on NAO.
03:16:24 <dogface> Autopickup is on for $ only? Wow, it's like it automatically knows my NAO options.
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03:44:17 <psygnisfive> dogface!
03:44:29 <dogface> No.
03:44:38 <psygnisfive> :(
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05:30:07 <funktio> does anyone know what B in TOYS ("butterfly" bit operation) is supposed to do?
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06:41:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hmm.... with this layout... we can take names out of the kernel. Names are purely a userspace invention....
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08:29:05 <fizzie> funktio; I would just go with the spec, which says "B (a b -- a+b a-b)"
08:32:04 <fizzie> I'm not sure what the "bit" there means, but (a, b) -> (a+b, a-b) is the thing usually called "butterfly operation" -- most commonly encountered probably in the FFT, since it's the two-point DFT.
08:33:30 <fizzie> At least RC/Funge's implementation seems to be a straight-forward  b=Pop(cip); a=Pop(cip); Push(a+b,cip); Push(a-b,cip);
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10:09:38 <AnMaster> funktio, about the B in TOYS, well no one knows
10:10:22 <AnMaster> however I do same as CCBI which does the same as RC/Funge
10:11:11 <AnMaster> <fizzie> funktio; I would just go with the spec, which says "B (a b -- a+b a-b)"
10:11:12 <AnMaster> err
10:11:18 <AnMaster> that isn't the official sepc
10:11:20 <AnMaster> spec*
10:11:27 <fizzie> Well, the RC/Funge manual, then.
10:11:38 <AnMaster> http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/TOYS.html
10:11:39 <fizzie> Yes, the official spec seems to say just "'butterfly' bit operation".
10:11:40 <AnMaster> is the official one
10:11:50 <AnMaster> yep
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10:56:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there?
10:56:29 <AnMaster> I get an odd lockup in mycology in SCKE
10:56:31 <AnMaster> between:
10:56:33 <AnMaster> UNDEF: 0"1.0.0.721"H pushed 16777343
10:56:39 <AnMaster> and the first time peek ever gets called
10:56:41 <AnMaster> very strange
10:59:00 <AnMaster> huh
10:59:04 <AnMaster> the code is very odd now
10:59:09 <AnMaster> it wrapped vertically
11:00:22 <AnMaster> well
11:00:24 <AnMaster> I see why
11:00:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if B reflects at x=85 y=696, then the code goes downwards, and then it wraps vertically at the lower edge of the funge space
11:01:04 <AnMaster> no idea what cause this
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11:08:02 <AnMaster> DEBUG perror: Address already in use
11:08:03 <AnMaster> hm
11:08:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mycology is buggy here
11:08:29 <AnMaster> it is trying B on an invalid socket, and expecting that to work
11:08:51 <AnMaster> I reuse sockets ids after a socket is closed
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11:16:46 <fizzie> Why is that socket there invalid? The line does  221#vS:11p:2ff*2-:a+*0#vB, which simplifies to  221S : 2 ff*2-:a+* 0 B  which to me should create a good socket (221S) and set up B parameters s='S' result, ct=2, prt=51959, addr=0.
11:18:30 <fizzie> The "just go down somewhere" B error handling there is a bit suboptimal.
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11:20:56 <Ilari> Add debugging printfs about what socket it gets back from socket() and what it tries to bind() to?
11:22:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, socket already in use
11:22:29 <AnMaster> it forget to close the first one
11:22:37 <AnMaster> so result is that stuff mess up
11:22:47 <AnMaster> you can create a duplicate socket, just not bind it
11:22:55 <AnMaster> without reuse flag
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11:26:56 <fizzie> Well, sure, but that's not "trying B on an invalid socket", that's "trying to bind a perfectly valid socket to an address already in use".
11:28:03 <AnMaster> yes it took a while to debug
11:28:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, ever looked at mycology?
11:28:30 <AnMaster> it is very hard to read funge
11:28:59 <fizzie> Uh, I did copy that particular line to my comment there above, that would've been quite a trick to do without looking.
11:30:10 <AnMaster> ah
11:30:13 <AnMaster> true
11:30:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, well in general it is hard to debug :P
11:30:35 <AnMaster> anyway SCKE may or may not work, I don't know until mycology is fixed
11:30:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ^
11:38:21 <tusho> oklofok: can you deliver a message to coolness for me?
11:38:25 <tusho> "you're batshit insane"
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11:49:50 <AnMaster> * [Deewiant] is away (ZZZ)
11:49:51 <AnMaster> huh
11:50:12 <AnMaster> it is 13:50 in his timezone I think
11:51:12 <fizzie> Yes.
11:51:15 <fizzie> A late sleeper.
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11:51:22 <AnMaster> on a Monday
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12:12:26 <oklofok> tusho: done
12:12:33 <tusho> oklofok: let me know what he replies <3
12:12:38 <tusho> that is actually a hat
12:12:43 <tusho> with udders
12:12:49 <oklofok> 14:12… +volimo: lol
12:13:00 <tusho> deep insight
12:13:04 <oklofok> :P
12:14:02 <oklofok> i'll probably have to retire, courses start in a week, and i have about a million things to do before that
12:14:40 <oklofok> "14:13… +volimo: omalla asteikollani klikkailumääräni ei ole vielä edes lähellä hullua" == "on my own scale, my amount of clicks is not even near insane"
12:15:25 <oklofok> he clicks mainly while eating and watching anime, afaik
12:16:15 <oklofok> but he's known to read dictionaries for tens of hours on end
12:16:46 <oklofok> and other quite time consuming tasks
12:17:04 <oklofok> some people just have more time than others i guess
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12:33:50 <tusho> oklofok: tell him that if he gets to 350000 in 1hr I'll make his name coloured or bold or something.
12:33:50 <tusho> :P
12:33:55 <tusho> (I like fucking with people!)
12:40:39 <oklofok> that'd be kinda pointless as that would be impossible
12:40:48 <oklofok> but, i need to leave, see ya
12:40:49 <oklofok> ->
12:41:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I think its context sensitive.
12:45:20 <AnMaster> %raw join #esoteric
12:45:21 <AnMaster> err
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12:45:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, ^
12:45:38 <AnMaster> in a chroot, using cfunge
12:46:02 <fizzie> %help
12:46:08 <fizzie> What, no %?
12:46:12 <AnMaster> hm
12:46:14 <AnMaster> should be %
12:46:15 <AnMaster> %help
12:46:22 <AnMaster> it locked up
12:46:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, any clue why?
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12:46:31 <fizzie> There might be bugs. :p
12:46:38 <fizzie> What was the last message it got?
12:46:42 <AnMaster> your help
12:46:56 -!- funnygot has joined.
12:47:00 <AnMaster> %help
12:47:02 -!- funnygot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:47:06 <AnMaster> 1>17G5L5G71>17G5L5G71>17G5L5G71>17G5L5G71>17G5L5G71>17G5L5G71>17G5L5G71>17G5L5G71>17G5
12:47:10 <AnMaster> is the loop it locked up in
12:47:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, does that help explaining it?
12:47:40 <fizzie> Hmm.. L should come from STRN there.
12:47:55 <AnMaster> well let me copy gdb into the chroot
12:48:32 <fizzie> I do "KCOS"4($$ 'AY 'LY  to drop L and Y from SOCK, since they overlap with STRN and I don't use them, anyway.
12:49:03 <fizzie> And then afterwards I "EKCS"4( which shouldn't put any semantics on L.
12:49:17 <fizzie> Does that help? Did you implement SCKE separately or part of SOCK, anyway?
12:49:29 <AnMaster> it is separate fingerprint
12:49:38 <AnMaster> which accesses SOCK data
12:49:51 <AnMaster> due to mycology bug I don't know if recv works
12:49:57 <AnMaster> as it tries to bind badly
12:50:32 <fizzie> And you have the same fingerprint loading code than http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt and not that modified version you made when you didn't have SCKE yet?
12:51:40 <fizzie> You could check with your debugger what the 'L' instruction has in it at that point where it gets stuck in the loop.
12:51:55 <AnMaster> indeed it is your original one
12:52:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, at what x,y should I break?
12:53:02 <fizzie> Hmmmm, thinking. Your ^raw join command works just fine to get it on the channel, then?
12:53:10 <AnMaster> yep
12:53:15 <AnMaster> well %raw
12:53:19 -!- funnygot has joined.
12:53:24 <AnMaster> %raw help
12:53:30 <AnMaster> worked too
12:53:33 <AnMaster> %help
12:53:46 <AnMaster> #1  0x000000000041a9ec in FingerSTRNleft (ip=0x1f93648) at /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c:149
12:53:47 <AnMaster> 149     /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c: No such file or directory.
12:53:47 <AnMaster>         in /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c
12:53:47 <AnMaster> grr
12:53:50 <AnMaster> due to chroot
12:53:56 <fizzie> Actually, you could check what your L does.
12:54:04 <fizzie> When the argument is longer than the string.
12:54:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is in STRN L
12:54:19 <AnMaster> k a sec
12:54:30 <fizzie> I guess mycology already does the necessary checks, though; isn't it supposed to be very thorough?
12:54:31 <AnMaster> if (n < 0 || len < (size_t)n) {
12:54:32 <AnMaster> StackFreeString(s);
12:54:32 <AnMaster> ipReverse(ip);
12:54:32 <AnMaster> return;
12:54:32 <AnMaster> }
12:54:33 <AnMaster> that
12:54:47 <AnMaster> so it reverses there
12:54:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think that is how CCBI does it too
12:54:59 <AnMaster> let me check
12:55:00 <fizzie> The code relies on L returning the whole string when the string is shorter than the "left" argument.
12:55:29 <fizzie> RC/Funge-98 manual says "For R,L requesting more characters than the length of the stsring will return the whole string"
12:55:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, ccbi reflects too
12:56:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, it probably didn't say that back when I implemented STRN
12:56:15 <fizzie> Very possible.
12:56:20 <AnMaster> which was before Mike Riley showed up again
12:56:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, so both cfunge and ccbi will reflect there
12:56:45 <AnMaster> and I don't like when fingerprints changes after they have been published
12:56:47 <AnMaster> I really don't
12:57:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, which means I will probably not implement the changed behaviour
12:57:15 <AnMaster> need to check the old version
12:57:43 <fizzie> Well, I could work-around it with some N4`|-like stuff to make it more portable.
12:58:01 <fizzie> But not before later today.
12:58:30 <AnMaster> http://web.archive.org/web/20020816190021/http://homer.span.ch/~spaw1088/funge.html
12:58:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, that was what was available when I implemented it
12:58:44 <AnMaster> nothing about the whole string thing there
12:59:05 <AnMaster> and I'm going to write a mail to Mike Riley about this, complaining
13:00:55 <fizzie> Well, it's pretty much undefined in the older spec; clarifications aren't as bad as real backwards-incompatible changes.
13:02:00 <tusho> <AnMaster> and I'm going to write a mail to Mike Riley about this, complaining
13:02:01 <tusho> How atypical.
13:02:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, well it did not agree with any other implementation
13:02:42 <fizzie> It did agree with my intuition. :)
13:02:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw did the docs really say "stsring"?
13:03:18 <fizzie> No, I probably typoed it. I had it open on another computer, and x2x has stopped working for some reason between OS X's X11.app and Linux.
13:03:26 <fizzie> (So I couldn't paste it here.)
13:03:58 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
13:05:14 <fizzie> In any case, R/L work like Perl's substr, which is comfortably familiar to me. I guess I'm just odd, given that you and Deewiant have both implemented in the "is an error and reflects" way.
13:06:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, I do not plan to change my way
13:06:08 <AnMaster> and consider it an UNDEF
13:06:23 <AnMaster> retconning fingerprints like this just breaks too much stuff
13:07:12 -!- funnygot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:07:42 <fizzie> Well, I'll update fungot to work around it no matter which way it's implemented. Just not now.
13:07:49 <AnMaster> ok
13:08:55 <fizzie> Now you just have to convince Deewiant to keep it as UNDEF and not implement a mycology check based on the current version of the STRN spec. :p
13:09:41 <AnMaster> well yes. I suggest Mike Riley makes a new fingerprint instead of changing existing ones
13:09:50 <AnMaster> at least for well established ones
13:10:33 <AnMaster> "For M, specifying a length that would go beyond the end of the string is legal and will return from the start til the end of the string"
13:10:39 <AnMaster> again ccbi and cfunge will reflect there
13:10:56 <AnMaster> for length 0 not sure
13:11:01 <AnMaster> I don't special case that
13:11:30 <AnMaster> however it will probably push a \0 onlhy
13:11:32 <AnMaster> only
13:11:59 <fizzie> Mycology seems to have a "UNDEF: 00L" sort of check.
13:12:10 <AnMaster> ah
13:12:35 <AnMaster> UNDEF: 00L leaves 0 on stack
13:12:36 <AnMaster> yeah
13:12:41 <AnMaster> UNDEF: "ooF"01-L reflects
13:13:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, actually for most undef I choose the same way as CCBI does it
13:13:16 <AnMaster> but reflecting of out of range number is same IMO
13:13:41 <AnMaster> but I'm used to C, where out of range values will not produce sensible results :P
13:15:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, want me to pastebin all UNDEF from cfunge?
13:15:23 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it's a matter of opinion. I'm pretty much used to both C and Perl, and don't find either way morally reprehensible. In any case, 01-L really sounds like it should reflect, there aren't that many sensible interpretations for "-1 characters on the left", except possibly interpreting it as 1R out of spite.
13:15:34 <fizzie> Sure, I can check whether any of them sound like I'm doing it in fungot.
13:15:41 <AnMaster> a sec
13:15:55 <fizzie> (away for a moment here)
13:15:58 <AnMaster> will need to disable SCKE in cfunge so it doesn't lock up due to mycology bug
13:18:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/VJ731d63.html
13:21:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, this is the 64-bit build of cfunge
13:21:33 <AnMaster> I think FIXP results will differ in 32-bit compile
13:28:24 <fizzie> I don't think I depend on any of that UNDEF stuff except the STRN 'L' behaviour. What do you do on STRN 'V' when the string doesn't look like a number at all, for example when called as 0V? RC/Funge seems to always push 0, but I think fungot can handle V reflecting in that case too.
13:31:31 <AnMaster> a sec
13:31:43 <AnMaster> was debugging something else sorry
13:31:45 * AnMaster checks
13:31:54 <AnMaster> StackPush(ip->stack, atoi(s));
13:31:54 <AnMaster> hm
13:31:57 <AnMaster> that may be wrong
13:32:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think it may push 0 then
13:32:42 <AnMaster> as it uses atoi simply
13:32:44 <fizzie> I think it will.
13:32:56 <AnMaster> I should probably change it to reflect instead
13:32:58 <AnMaster> would make more sense
13:33:28 <AnMaster> and not use atoi, but convert it like reading int from stdin does
13:33:33 <fizzie> Not even the current STRN documentation in the RC/Funge manual says anything about what V will do on error.
13:33:35 <AnMaster> which is to stop just before it will overflow
13:33:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, ^
13:33:47 <AnMaster> means that algorithm is messy
13:34:01 <AnMaster> having to check if reading next digit will overflow in advance
13:34:23 <AnMaster> should make it available for use in fingerprints
13:34:42 -!- Linus` has quit ("Puzzi. S�, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi.").
13:35:26 <fizzie> I would sort of assume that V would always pop the complete 0gnirts. But, again, that might be just me.
13:36:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, err yes I would do that
13:36:07 <AnMaster> but then when I parse the string I mena
13:36:09 <AnMaster> mean'
13:36:11 <AnMaster> mean*
13:36:29 <fizzie> In that case you can just convert it with strtol/strtoll and let that handle the error checking. It will set errno to ERANGE if it would overflow.
13:36:41 <fizzie> Not especially messy.
13:37:27 <AnMaster> um
13:37:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, it should not clamp to MAX_INT
13:37:54 <AnMaster> but return the result as it was the digit before it overflowed
13:38:02 <AnMaster> so it may be less than MAX_INT
13:38:10 <AnMaster> which was why I needed to make my own routine
13:38:35 <fizzie> Oh, right, & was specced that way.
13:38:51 <fizzie> Yes, it makes sense to behave similarly.
13:39:30 <AnMaster> should probably change all the fingerprints that read integers from ascii to do that
13:40:35 <AnMaster> SCKE commited, but peek is untested due to mycology bug
13:41:08 <AnMaster> however it should work
13:41:13 <AnMaster> it just uses poll()
13:46:13 <tusho> hhhhhh
13:46:25 <AnMaster> tusho, ?
13:46:29 <tusho> dgfsdaf
13:46:32 <AnMaster> well of course it may be buggy
13:48:04 <fizzie> "as in it isn't so, or what? :(. i hate the format of kernel", as fungot would say if I could ever get that babble generator ported.
13:48:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, eh?
13:49:22 <fizzie> I want fungot to be able to answer as cleverly as optbot, but my babble generator isn't yet Funge code.
13:49:23 <optbot> fizzie: too many formats
13:49:40 <tusho> fizzie: Here is optbot's algorithm
13:49:40 <optbot> tusho: "oerjan"
13:49:47 <tusho> optbot: Yes, oerjan does it all.
13:49:47 <optbot> tusho: THAT WAS SENT LIKE YEARS AGO
13:49:47 <tusho> But
13:49:57 <fizzie> I I know optbot's algorithm, but I don't want to be a copycat.
13:49:57 <optbot> fizzie: i was just using girlfriends as an example, really
13:50:02 <tusho> xD
13:50:19 <tusho> lines_said = File("*.log").lines; if optbot_said: say lines_said.rand
13:50:19 <optbot> tusho: EgoBrokent
13:50:47 <fizzie> So I wrote a small piece of code to build a n-gram language model and generate text from that just to make fungot sound more deranged than optbot, that paragon of clarity.
13:50:47 <optbot> fizzie: the most logical choice would be to let me govern all.
13:51:01 <fizzie> optbot; Again with the world-takeover stuff?
13:51:02 <optbot> fizzie: Oh pie! I'm a pi hoe!
13:51:06 <fizzie> ... yes.
13:52:05 <tusho> XD
13:52:11 <tusho> optbot needs to be in an institution
13:52:11 <optbot> tusho: we're having an argument. :)
13:52:17 <tusho> ah
13:52:19 <tusho> weird argument.
13:53:07 <AnMaster> lol
13:53:47 <tusho> optbot: so, about our secret and taboo sexual relationship
13:53:48 <optbot> tusho: hello
13:53:50 <tusho> optbot: yes, hi
13:53:50 <optbot> tusho: well... would be, if you had >>, and X=-operators
13:54:02 <tusho> optbot: an x chromosone?
13:54:02 <optbot> tusho: files get fragmented
13:54:08 <tusho> optbot: that is one strange innuendo
13:54:08 <optbot> tusho: oko means eye in TP?
13:54:13 <tusho> optbot: wut
13:54:13 <optbot> tusho: Nope.
13:54:17 <tusho> optbot: ah it was a quiz
13:54:17 <optbot> tusho: well changing the switches does
13:54:23 <tusho> optbot: the switches for the quiz?
13:54:24 <optbot> tusho: and no '
13:54:31 <tusho> optbot: You're not in your operating hours, are you.
13:54:31 <optbot> tusho: and you can use 44, .4, etc
13:54:34 <tusho> optbot: Figured.
13:54:35 <optbot> tusho: lol
13:57:10 <AnMaster> $ ld -ld
13:57:11 <AnMaster> ld: warning: cannot find entry symbol _start; not setting start address
13:57:14 <AnMaster> that produces a file
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13:57:18 <AnMaster> was a typo for ls -ld
13:57:20 <AnMaster> really
13:57:26 <AnMaster> however I now got a strange a.out
13:57:30 <AnMaster> $ file a.out
13:57:30 <AnMaster> a.out: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped
13:57:32 <AnMaster> $ ./a.out
13:57:33 <AnMaster> bash: ./a.out: No such file or directory
13:57:39 <AnMaster> -rwxr-xr-x 1 arvid arvid   5248 25 aug 14.56 a.out
13:57:53 <AnMaster> $ ldd a.out
13:57:54 <AnMaster> /usr/bin/ldd: line 116: ./a.out: No such file or directory
13:57:54 <AnMaster> huh
13:58:36 <AnMaster> oh readelf explains it:
13:58:37 <AnMaster>   INTERP         0x0001c8 0x00000000004001c8 0x00000000004001c8 0x00000f 0x00000f R   0x1
13:58:38 <AnMaster>         [Requesting program interpreter: /lib/ld64.so.1]
13:58:41 <AnMaster> ls: cannot access /lib/ld64.so.1: No such file or directory
13:59:16 <fizzie> I just get "ld: cannot find -ld" if I do "ld -ld".
13:59:23 <AnMaster> hm strange
13:59:25 <fizzie> Do you have a libd somewhere, then?
13:59:38 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/libd.so
13:59:40 <AnMaster> yep
13:59:50 <AnMaster> dev-util/kdevelop (/usr/lib64/libd.so)
14:02:51 <AnMaster> now I can test non-sandbox allowed functions too, thanks to setting up a chroot
14:03:07 <AnMaster> for fuzz testing
14:12:05 -!- LinuS has joined.
14:20:50 <AnMaster> heh one fuzz program was just printing out:
14:20:52 <AnMaster> mefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummefummef
14:20:54 <AnMaster> over and over
14:21:09 <AnMaster> actually it began with "fummeg=bnunrefumm"
14:21:19 <AnMaster> then fumme all the time
14:21:19 <AnMaster> weird
14:27:51 <AnMaster> # ls
14:27:52 <AnMaster> ?F                                                                              ???FRID??F     ??          F?      fuzz-test.sh  src
14:27:52 <AnMaster> ?k7]0b4f,!ok2w#}}q<d}eC<;1\42za7x+; (44( ;+x7az24\1;<Ce}d<q}}#w2ko!,f4b0]7k9??  ???FRID??F???  CMakeFiles  cfunge  fuzz.tmp      valgnd.output
14:27:55 <AnMaster> yay for fuzz testing
14:28:04 <AnMaster> yes it is in a chroot
14:33:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I saw that the B reflection goes into limbo almost right away yesterday, I thought I said so as well but evidently not :-P
14:39:16 <tusho> Has anyone made a library called ido yet?
14:46:08 -!- dogface has joined.
14:49:28 <Sgeo> No dogface!
14:49:48 <dogface> Ello ello.
14:52:28 -!- jix has joined.
14:52:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm?
14:52:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well currently I'm unable to test that SCKE works
14:52:53 <AnMaster> due to this issue
14:53:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: just add code somewhere to close the socket that needs to be closed
14:55:35 <Deewiant> hardcode it into the SCKE constructor if necessary :-P
14:55:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't know what one it is, anyway I do start numbering them at 0 and then goes upwards.
14:55:55 <AnMaster> but if one is closed I will reuse that ID next time
14:56:03 <AnMaster> I scan for the first free ID basically
14:56:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so try 0,1,2 until it works
14:56:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this should be just before B?
14:56:29 <Deewiant> yes
14:56:40 <Deewiant> or even further before
14:56:43 <Deewiant> but before it anyway
14:58:23 <AnMaster> >$           >:#,_$.a,>n221#vS:11p:2ff*2-:a+*0#vB:
14:58:33 <AnMaster> could it be done between $ and >
14:58:36 <AnMaster> there is no space elsewhere
14:58:39 <Deewiant> sure
14:59:14 <AnMaster> hm
15:02:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok that cause "ileegal seek" errors...
15:03:08 <Deewiant> ?
15:04:30 <AnMaster> DEBUG perror: Numerical result out of range
15:04:33 <AnMaster> then ileegal seek
15:04:34 <AnMaster> wtf
15:04:47 <Deewiant> what's "ileegal seek"
15:05:10 <AnMaster> well on a socket: no clue
15:05:19 <AnMaster> oh wait I see the issue
15:05:27 <AnMaster> DEBUG perror: Numerical result out of range was the real error
15:05:33 <AnMaster> I think
15:05:34 <AnMaster> wtf
15:06:00 <AnMaster> ah no it wasn't
15:06:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for some reason this cause it to reflect
15:07:14 <AnMaster> is the position of that > critical
15:07:27 <AnMaster> because I need to fit it in somewhere closer before the B I think
15:07:40 <Deewiant> are you sure you're just not closing the wrong socket
15:07:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I checked both open ones (0 and 2)
15:07:54 <Deewiant> doing a K before or after the S shouldn't matter
15:08:53 <tusho> Fonts suck.
15:08:54 <tusho> DISCUSS
15:09:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if I close the socket there, it never even gets to H
15:09:19 <Deewiant> trajan: the movie font
15:09:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: doesn't make sense to me
15:10:15 <fizzie> tusho: "that's it, though.... you're redefining its meaning. i've almost finished stuff. i've been doing for a makefile, heh." (I'll just let fungot's prototype artificial brain do my discussion for me.)
15:10:16 <Sgeo> I ██ ███ love censorship!
15:10:30 <tusho> fizzie: How does it work?
15:10:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well now I closed the other one, then I get to H but... I still get address in use
15:10:37 <tusho> Sgeo: That was funny, like, five years ago
15:11:16 <fizzie> tusho: "too late! i mean, think "i" is not recognized??? i distinctly recall a fnord w e fnord fnord"
15:11:23 <tusho> fizzie: That was a real question actually.
15:12:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it seems hrrm. this make no sense
15:13:52 <fizzie> It's just a ngram language model (with all words used more than once here in the vocabulary; OOV words replaced with fnord), and I generate the text by using looking for the set of the largest order n-grams for which the n-1 previously generated words match, then use their counts as the probability of the following word.
15:15:49 <fizzie> What I pasted was with n=3, and therefore has only two words of context and is quite incoherent. With a 5-gram model: "the universe faq was useful, i know everything i need to :) thanks for the suggestions. i'll figure something out."
15:16:37 <tusho> fizzie: So, how exactly does it work? :P
15:17:28 <tusho> fizzie: One thing I tried a while back is parsing a subset of english into prolog
15:17:33 <tusho> The syntax wasn't that hard, basically:
15:17:44 <tusho> the rabbits' tails' lengths are 5cm
15:17:45 <tusho> ->
15:17:54 <tusho> rabbits.map(tails).map(lengths).map(= 5cm)
15:17:59 <tusho> rabbits is implicitly an array
15:18:02 <tusho> and then you could say
15:18:18 <tusho> "bot: rabbit's tail's length?"
15:18:20 <tusho> or
15:18:26 <tusho> "bot: the length of the rabbit's tail?"
15:18:29 <tusho> and it'd give you 5cm
15:18:35 <tusho> It wasn't a particularly complex syntax
15:18:41 <tusho> but it has a few really fucking hard bits to parse
15:18:50 <AnMaster> GOOD: P pushed 0 for socket without data
15:18:50 <AnMaster> BAD: P pushed zero for socket with data
15:18:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure then I change it
15:18:58 <AnMaster> to do the reverse
15:19:04 <AnMaster> BAD: P pushed nonzero for socket without data
15:19:04 <AnMaster> GOOD: P pushed nonzero for socket with data
15:19:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, huh...
15:19:25 <Deewiant> so obviously you're doing it wrong? :-P
15:20:10 <AnMaster> hrrm
15:20:19 <fizzie> Well, fungot's approach is pretty much only statistics, there's no syntax or grammar or ontology or any sort of fancy-schmancy knowledge representation. Basically there's a tree of "here's a list of words with counts that have followed these N words" nodes, constructed so that I can just follow the tree as deep as there are children and then pick a word from the list.
15:20:39 <tusho> fizzie: Oh. A markov chain.
15:20:56 <tusho> Been there, done that.
15:21:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what two sockets do you use for it
15:22:03 <Deewiant> no clue
15:22:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: one thing to keep in mind is that it used to be GOOD that the socket is overwritten in A
15:22:47 <Deewiant> so that was written with there being only two sockets
15:22:55 <fizzie> That's what it ends up being, yes. It's not exactly the same thing, though. There's no state-change probability as such, and it ends up staying in the "same state" (generating consecutive tokens from the data) mainly because it's the most likely output of the language model.
15:23:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you mean your SOCK is probably buggy
15:23:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: of course the test code is buggy, I thought everybody knew that by now?
15:24:09 <Deewiant> what I mean is, as to "what two sockets", there are only two sockets
15:24:21 <Deewiant> or there should be, because of the bugginess there are 3
15:25:24 <AnMaster> BAD: P pushed zero for socket with data
15:25:25 <AnMaster> wrong
15:25:28 <AnMaster> I checked my code
15:31:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the issue is, the socket in question didn't have any data
15:31:18 <AnMaster> I checked  by hand using call in gdb...
15:31:28 <Deewiant> well why not
15:31:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess nothing was written to it
15:31:49 <Deewiant> I guess something should have been written to it
15:31:52 <AnMaster> and I have to leave for this evening
15:32:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it wasn't, and I don't know why
15:32:04 <tusho> AnMaster: evening?
15:32:05 <AnMaster> I'd say something is bugged
15:32:08 <tusho> For you it's 4 pm./
15:32:18 <AnMaster> well it is a long drive
15:32:33 <AnMaster> so yes about an hour in car, then away for several hours
15:32:39 <AnMaster> and I need to do some stuff before
15:32:41 <AnMaster> like pack
15:33:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I suspect the earlier bug could have caused it
15:33:25 <AnMaster> so I'm not going to try to debug this harder until you fix the other bug
15:33:34 <AnMaster> because I suspect the issue is with that in some way
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15:43:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I changed the Peek to do it the same way as CCBI
15:43:54 <AnMaster> it still fails with same reason
15:44:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which means I suspect mycology is buggy
15:45:34 <Deewiant> like I said
15:45:38 <Deewiant> EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT MYCOLOGY IS BUGGY
15:45:43 <Deewiant> FFS
15:45:44 <AnMaster> yes
15:45:57 <AnMaster> at least in SOCK it is
15:46:06 <AnMaster> in other parts it aren't of course :)
15:49:03 <tusho> a A a A a A a A a A a A a A a A a A a A a A a A a A a A a A a A a A a A a A
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16:08:31 <tusho> Googolplexian: The worlds largest number with a name. A "1" followed by a googolplex of zeros. <- oh come on
16:08:54 <tusho> Graham's, bitches. Or xkcd, but that's less well-accepted academically.
16:08:59 <tusho> (Clarkkkkson too)
16:09:04 <tusho> (Or was it Clarkkson...)
16:18:44 <fizzie> It doesn't, really. Except in some details, I guess. I build ngrams of all orders <N so that I can use the lower-order ones to continue even when there's not enough context for the currently generated output. And I didn't like the uncontrollable phrase lengths, so I just flagged those nodes that can end a sentence and use a fixed probability based on the generated text length.
16:20:13 <tusho> Ah.
16:20:22 <tusho> What corpus of text are you using?
16:20:24 <tusho> #esoteric?
16:20:24 <fizzie> Oh, I managed to misplace the query.
16:20:39 <fizzie> Anyway, both of these are different from the "traditional" 'disassociated-press' style markov chain thing, where the process is "read the source text consecutively, and with a pre-defined transition probability jump into some random location with the same context".
16:20:45 <fizzie> My personal #esoteric logs, yes.
16:21:14 <tusho> dissociated-press is really crap
16:21:14 <tusho> :)
16:21:24 <tusho> Hmm. What obscure language to write a markov chain in now.
16:23:44 <tusho> Hm
16:24:14 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm rather aware that fungot's brain is an uninspired design, but since we already have optbot's random-log-line thing, I though it would fit right in as the second common "no sense" method of generating responses.
16:24:14 <optbot> fizzie: then it could be hacked to work with one of the outside-layers
16:24:38 <fizzie> optbot; Uh, how would that work?
16:24:38 <optbot> fizzie: a single microorganism is complex, but colonies of them act in extremely deterministic ways. :)
16:24:41 <tusho> Well, whuzza third? :P
16:25:03 <tusho> optbot: that could apply to bots, too. see eg bot loops
16:25:03 <optbot> tusho: !ul (Test)S
16:25:09 <tusho> optbot: but I am not a bot
16:25:09 <optbot> tusho: Even better with PSOX, because that's just crazy
16:25:14 <tusho> optbot: nor am I written in PSOX
16:25:15 <optbot> tusho: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/MKBL-LN
16:25:20 <tusho> optbot: nor that.
16:25:21 <optbot> tusho: Bweh.
16:25:27 <tusho> optbot: yeah, sucks I know
16:25:28 <optbot> tusho: otherwise winning $25000 would have been somewhat trivial
16:25:33 <fizzie> There's the hybrid "select a random line which has similar words than in the question" approach, but maybe that's just an optbot variant.
16:25:34 <optbot> fizzie: the parens are simply not needed and make the code uglier
16:25:37 <tusho> optbot: WHAT?! you give bots that much?
16:25:38 <optbot> tusho: unary)
16:26:05 <fizzie> A unary ")" operator sounds rather funny.
16:27:35 <tusho> fizzie: Maybe it could look like this:
16:27:36 <tusho> ) ( ...
16:27:38 <Sgeo> Hey, tusho brought up two of my things in a row
16:27:41 <Sgeo> erm, optbot
16:27:41 <optbot> Sgeo: well that is what putp(clr_screen); does
16:27:49 <tusho> fizzie: So like
16:28:00 <tusho> ) + 1 2 (
16:28:07 <tusho> the ( would open it
16:28:09 <Sgeo> putp(clr_screen) brings up my stuff?
16:28:11 <Sgeo> cool!
16:28:11 <tusho> and operations applied on it
16:28:13 <tusho> would go into the parens
16:28:13 <Sgeo> lol
16:28:16 <tusho> then the unary ) would close it
16:28:22 <tusho> and returns its result
16:28:35 <tusho> ) + 1 ) + 2 3 ( (
16:28:41 <tusho> And then you could just swap the operators
16:28:43 <tusho> and get lisp.
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16:42:37 <ais523> hi tusho
16:42:41 <tusho> hi ais523
16:52:27 <tusho> .
16:52:39 <ais523> ,
16:52:56 <oklofok> ::
16:53:00 <tusho> 32
16:53:16 * ais523 is still working on their Brainfuck -> C compiler
16:53:30 <ais523> last time I got it to compile, there was a really amusing error (I know what caused it):
16:53:59 <oklofok> amusing? errors usually aren't that amusing, quite the opposite
16:54:15 <ais523> t.c: In function ‘a’:
16:54:19 <ais523> t.c:4: error: unrecognizable insn:
16:54:23 <ais523> (insn 9 8 10 3 (parallel [
16:54:27 <ais523>             (set (subreg:QI (reg:SI 73) 0)
16:54:31 <ais523>                 (plus:QI (const_int -3 [0xfffffffd])
16:54:35 <ais523>                     (subreg:QI (reg:SI 73) 0)))
16:54:39 <ais523>             (set (reg:QI 74)
16:54:39 <tusho> ha...ha?
16:54:43 <ais523>                 (plus:QI (const_int -3 [0xfffffffd])
16:54:47 <ais523>                     (reg:QI 74)))
16:54:59 <ais523>             (set (const_int -3 [0xfffffffd])
16:55:03 <ais523>                 (const_int 0 [0x0]))
16:55:07 <ais523>         ]) -1 (nil)
16:55:11 <ais523>     (nil))
16:55:13 <tusho> hahahahah
16:55:16 <oklofok> that's pretty funny indeed :P
16:55:18 <tusho> oh boy that is amusing
16:55:24 <tusho> haw haw haw
16:55:27 <ais523> look closely at that and you'll see why I was amused
16:55:39 <ais523> in particular, the bit near the bottom
16:55:39 <ais523> gcc went all Forte on me...
16:55:39 <ais523> I was programming moves as a double-transfer-add followed by a transfer-add
16:55:39 <ais523> e.g. [->+>+<<]>[-<+>]
16:55:40 <ais523> now imagine how that works on constants...
16:55:46 <tusho> ah
16:55:48 <tusho> setting a constant int.
16:55:57 <tusho> that was totally not funny enough for the buildup
16:56:02 <ais523> sorry
16:56:12 <ais523> it was pretty funny given that it happened after an hour of compiling and a night of debugging
16:56:17 <ais523> to get it to compile
16:56:33 <ais523> and I was pretty relieved that it didn't segfault this time
16:56:43 * oklofok still didn't get it
16:56:46 <ais523> so probably I thought it was a lot funnier than it actually was
16:57:10 <tusho> oklofok: (set (const_int ...
16:57:15 <tusho> It was trying to set an integer to something
16:57:17 <tusho> like 3 = 4
16:57:31 <ais523> oklofok: to do a=b in BF, you do {a=0;} {c=0;} {a+=b; c+=b; b=0;} {b+=c; c=0;}
16:57:37 <ais523> (that's the BF code translated into C)
16:57:47 <ais523> now consider what happens if b is a constant
16:57:49 <oklofok> right, right
16:57:52 <ais523> I totally failed to consider that...
16:57:55 <oklofok> well i didn't know that was a compiler
16:57:59 <tusho> ais523: it wasn't actually funny
16:58:00 <tusho> :D
16:58:08 <ais523> tusho: your smiley betrays you
16:58:10 <oklofok> 18:52… × ais523 is still working on their Brainfuck -> C compiler <<< skipped this line
16:58:23 <ais523> what's the × for? CTCP action?
16:58:34 <ais523> and I got that backwards
16:58:37 <oklofok> ask nnscript, not me
16:58:39 <ais523> it's a C -> Brainfuck compiler
16:58:42 <ais523> which is a lot harder to do
16:58:46 <oklofok> yes
16:59:10 <tusho> ais523: x to imitate *
16:59:12 <tusho> presumably
16:59:18 <ais523> why not just use *?
16:59:28 <ais523> oh, nnscript, right, it does things differently for the sake of it
16:59:38 <ais523> [16:59] [CTCP] Sending CTCP-PING request to oklofok.
16:59:38 <ais523> [16:59] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from oklofok: 28 seconds.
16:59:47 <ais523> still faking ping response times, I see
17:00:28 <ais523> anyway, sorry
17:00:46 <ais523> I'll paste what I've got so far if you're interested
17:00:54 <ais523> better yet, I'll put it up on eso-std.org, as it's an entire directory
17:00:55 <tusho> ais523: for aesthetics
17:01:02 <tusho> maybe they thought x looks better
17:01:10 <tusho> also
17:01:12 <tusho> put it in your home dir
17:01:20 <tusho> i'll link it from code.e-s.o
17:01:24 <ais523> ok
17:02:42 <ais523> ~/gcc-bf
17:03:42 <tusho> what vcs
17:03:51 <ais523> there isn't one there yet
17:03:57 <ais523> I'm using c&p as the vcs at my end
17:04:01 <tusho> k
17:04:02 <tusho> linked
17:04:05 <ais523> comments with old bits of code shoved down at the bottom, etc
17:05:22 <tusho> .
17:07:04 <tusho> ais523: well?
17:07:10 <tusho> c.e.o/gcc-bf
17:07:19 <ais523> ok, sounds good for the time being
17:07:29 <ais523> it probably isn't worth trying to run yet
17:07:31 <ais523> as it won't work
17:07:32 <tusho> i was telling you that i had uploaded it :P
17:07:34 <ais523> ah
17:07:38 <tusho> http://code.eso-std.org/gcc-bf/
17:07:38 <tusho> er
17:07:39 <tusho> linked it
17:07:40 <ais523> it may be worth looking at
17:07:50 <ais523> any gcc experts out there, tell me what I'm doing wrong
17:08:01 <tusho> #gcc has gcc experts
17:08:02 <tusho> probably
17:08:07 <ais523> yes
17:08:15 <Slereah_> By the way, how far is eso standard?
17:08:21 <tusho> Slereah_: 0%
17:08:26 <Slereah_> Is the site fully operational and anatomically correct?
17:08:28 <ais523> but they'll ask what on earth I'm doing developing for a toy system that requires secondary reload on every single move apart from constant->register
17:08:31 <tusho> false
17:08:50 <tusho> ais523: and you'll tell them
17:08:51 <ais523> Slereah_: the site exists but most of the bits of it that we need aren't written yet
17:08:58 <tusho> "My business has used these machines since the 60s"
17:09:03 <ais523> code.eso-std.org works reasonably well
17:09:05 <ais523> though
17:09:06 <Slereah_> What bits do we actually need?
17:09:07 <tusho> and, the site exists but http://eso-std.org/ is non-operational atm
17:09:21 <tusho> since at this very moment I don't really give a crap what people see when they go to there because uh people don't go there :D
17:12:20 * tusho gets an Evil Idea
17:12:41 <ais523> more evil than making gcc support bf-unknown-none as a target machine?
17:12:48 <ais523> (incidentally, that means unknown manufacturer, no OS)
17:12:56 <tusho> ais523: no :P
17:13:11 <ais523> well, no executable file format, which comes to much the same thing
17:13:23 <ais523> I'm planning to write the assembler by hand as it'll be so different from a typical sane assembler
17:13:39 <tusho> but, still a crazy idea
17:14:16 <ais523> ok, tell me
17:14:22 <tusho> ok :P
17:14:31 <tusho> i'll do it in one big message
17:16:27 <tusho> Firstly, it's like Smalltalk but not. Its default interface is an HTTP server that lets you explore things semantically. You can do things like import certain parts of another instance if their http servers are public, and like Smalltalk everything is persisted automatically and there aren't any files etc. Expressions are shown in their parsed form, and you can click on subforms and manipulate them etc (while still being able to type normally - JS is used to
17:16:31 <tusho> hope that got through
17:16:36 <tusho> I'm not sure how well it'll work but I'm gonna try.
17:16:54 <ais523> it's cut off
17:16:57 <ais523> after "JS is used to"
17:17:07 <tusho> parse them as you go). Of course, you could add e.g. a telnet interface or something that loads files or whatever, but that's not as interesting because that's not the actual idea.
17:17:15 <tusho> anyway, one interesting aspect
17:17:28 <tusho> is that since it lets you edit the AST itself and therefore parses and manipulates on both the client and server
17:17:31 <tusho> is that the parser will be first-class
17:17:35 <tusho> so you can change the syntax using itself
17:17:47 <tusho> (that is, it has a pre-parsed parser in itself, and also the parsed version)
17:17:58 <tusho> (and it uses the pre-parsed parser to parse the new parser)
17:17:58 <ais523> very Feather
17:18:07 <tusho> so, parser version N always runs on parser version N-1
17:18:15 <tusho> because otherwise you'd have to re-run it infinite times
17:18:17 <ais523> actually CLC-INTERCAL does that too, and it actually exists
17:18:18 <tusho> but, that's not too much of a bother
17:18:27 <tusho> because you'll mostly be adding nice cosmetical changes
17:18:31 <tusho> and its ok for the parser to be a bit ugly
17:18:33 <ais523> a preparsed parser comes with the distribution to get things started
17:19:31 <tusho> so, this'll be a graphical (due to how the ast is presented & edited), web-based (to start with, and also due to things like packages being loaded from URIs), image-based, self-modifying to a large degree language.
17:19:48 <ais523> I still want an entirely client-side website
17:19:57 <tusho> been done
17:20:02 <ais523> which stores all data on the browsers of people visiting it
17:20:02 <tusho> ewll
17:20:04 <tusho> well
17:20:06 <tusho> ok, not that
17:20:08 <tusho> ais523: still
17:20:10 <tusho> any omments on my idea?
17:20:14 <ais523> and the website simply ceases to exist if nobody's visiting it at a particular moment
17:20:26 <ais523> tusho: it sounds a lot like regular Smalltalk, it's a natural fit for it
17:21:19 <tusho> yes, but with graphically-parsey-expressiony stuff, good web integration (is a web server by default, sharing your code is just making the http server public and then setting permissions for the anonymous user (so that they can't see your passwords, e.g.))
17:21:25 <tusho> and self-modifying parsing
17:21:39 <tusho> (because a first-class parser is actually really useful for this for the parsey-expressiony stuff on both server and client side)
17:21:48 <tusho> (it'll have to compile the bytecode to JS, of course. not too hard, I imagine)
17:22:23 <tusho> think I'll call it chromosome, which is relevant in some way I can't put my finger on right now
17:22:57 <tusho> and it lets me name things chromX
17:22:58 <tusho> like cromHTTP
17:23:03 <tusho> and for the UI (the chrome):
17:23:07 <tusho> chromchrome
17:24:29 <tusho> ais523: so does that appeal to your languagular tastes?
17:24:55 <ais523> sort of, I probably wouldn't work on it though, too much like the side of Smalltalk I don't like
17:25:01 <ais523> I just don't like monolithic systems, really
17:25:17 <tusho> ais523: it is not monolithic, though
17:25:26 <tusho> since it componentizes with URIs, you could even do
17:25:28 <tusho> file:///...
17:25:36 <tusho> to load modules from disk
17:25:54 <ais523> I think I have an inherent suspicion of things that are inherently non-portable
17:25:58 <ais523> they've just caught me out too often
17:26:03 <tusho> but that is portable
17:26:15 <tusho> the format for modules is part of the language itself
17:26:19 <tusho> so if you choose a new implementation
17:26:23 <ais523> ah, in that case that's ok
17:26:27 <tusho> just use a file:/// to import the old instance
17:26:28 <tusho> and voila
17:27:04 <tusho> i don't think there's any inherent non-portability in it, then
17:27:07 <tusho> but perhaps you can see some?
17:27:20 <ais523> no, I was worried that moving instances around couldn't be done portably
17:27:32 <tusho> yes, that'd certainly be standardized
17:27:57 <tusho> hmm...
17:28:03 <tusho> the default parser will have to include something like this
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17:29:26 <tusho> urg
17:29:27 <tusho> anyway
17:29:37 <tusho> it'd have to include something like this
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17:30:03 <tusho> <a href=("hello" + "world")>"How are you today? " + <strong>"I hope you're good"</strong></a>
17:30:10 <tusho> i.e. HTML embedded in to it, for the interface
17:30:10 <tusho> ah
17:30:13 <tusho> maybe a withHTML
17:30:23 <tusho> withHTML[...]
17:30:34 <tusho> of course, this pesky plaintext IRC is restricting me from showing how it'd ACTUALLY look :)
17:31:08 <tusho> here, let me compose a little html ditty of ... something
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17:36:14 <tusho> ais523: ok, here's a rough example
17:36:18 <tusho> of the text expression:
17:36:29 <tusho> (+ (sum [1,2]) (+ 1 2))
17:36:35 <tusho> (obviously the actual writing syntax will be sweeter)
17:36:42 <tusho> http://hpaste.org/9921/0/plain (abusing HPaste's content-type fail FTW)
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17:36:53 <tusho> It might be that the (+ 1 2) there could be inlined to 1 + 2
17:36:57 <ais523> tusho: I edit bf.md in lisp-mode
17:36:58 <tusho> for legibility
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17:37:24 <tusho> still, I think it's a good example
17:39:09 <tusho> ais523: does that look pretty legible to you?
17:39:15 <tusho> in the real thing, you could click the + and change it
17:39:17 <ais523> it looks interesting
17:39:19 <tusho> to *, say
17:39:24 <tusho> or you could click the sum [1, 2 ]
17:39:30 <tusho> and change sum to product
17:39:36 <tusho> or you could open sum [ 1, 2 ] as a new page
17:39:38 <ais523> personally I think that most people will be on a hair trigger, because one tiny change could bring the whole thing down
17:39:46 <tusho> for example, if that (+ 1 2) was inlined to 1 + 2
17:39:49 <ais523> true become: false ftw!
17:39:49 <tusho> you could expand it
17:39:53 <tusho> and get it in the form it has there
17:39:56 <tusho> ais523: ah well I won't have become
17:40:04 <tusho> because it's almost certainly a code smell :P
17:40:05 <ais523> that'll make it somewhat simpler
17:40:11 <tusho> it'll be relatively simple
17:40:15 <tusho> and also automatically revision controlled
17:40:34 <tusho> ais523: oh, and of course, you could edit that as regular text too
17:40:36 <tusho> that is
17:40:39 <tusho> you could add a new line
17:40:42 <tusho> and if you typed what produced that
17:40:44 <tusho> it'd happen in realtim
17:40:45 <tusho> e
17:40:52 <tusho> I'm not sure what backspace would do at the end of it
17:40:54 <tusho> I think it'd be two lines
17:41:01 <tusho> so you'd backspace into that block of code
17:41:08 <tusho> and then delete the 1 & 2 and then the +
17:41:10 <tusho> and then the block itself
17:41:15 <tusho> so it'd become (+ (sum [1,2]))
17:41:22 <tusho> that's basically how paredit does it
17:41:32 <tusho> ais523: oh, and you could e.g.
17:41:34 <tusho> select the sum bit
17:41:39 <tusho> and press Ctrl-E or whatever
17:41:46 <tusho> and it'd show, to the side, what it evaluates to
17:42:09 <tusho> and then that'd be a Real Object
17:42:15 <tusho> that is, objects have an html representation
17:42:21 <tusho> and you can click them to inspect them, perform messages on them
17:42:21 <tusho> etc
17:42:38 <tusho> that there would be the HTML representation of the AST class
17:43:33 <tusho> i hope that isn't confusing for you
17:43:33 <tusho> :D
17:45:27 <ais523> sounds a bit like Seaside, but saner
17:45:34 <ais523> and for an entire lang not just a website
17:46:36 <tusho> yeah, making an actual site with it would be fun
17:46:41 <tusho> you'd start another chromHTTP instance, presumably
17:46:46 <tusho> and just send the objects to that
17:46:55 <tusho> oh, and the problem with that code example I showed
17:46:59 <tusho> is that it's functional
17:47:04 <tusho> I can't think of a good way to do this with message sends
17:47:12 <tusho> hmm
17:47:18 <tusho> because, I mean
17:47:25 <tusho> it'd just turn out looking like a linear text representation
17:47:30 <tusho> because the nesting is minimal
17:51:03 <tusho> ais523: any ideas re: that?
17:51:08 <tusho> I mean i could just represent it as I do now
17:51:09 <tusho> :\
17:51:15 <tusho> although I _can't_ fit it in with the smalltalk message syntax
17:51:34 <ais523> tusho: maybe messages isn't the way to go, then
17:52:13 <tusho> ais523: but it fits in with the smalltalky "live environment" model
17:52:35 <ais523> yes, maybe it's following the same model as Smalltalk but not the same implementation of it?
17:52:48 <tusho> true
17:52:52 <tusho> but smalltalk is VERY based on messages
17:53:24 <ais523> this is your chance to do something very different, then
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18:47:42 <tusho> ais523: true :)
18:47:47 <tusho> ok, maybe messages
18:47:49 <tusho> but reverse ones
18:47:52 <tusho> however
18:47:55 <tusho> I prefer multi dispatch
18:47:55 <tusho> however
18:48:00 <tusho> that doesn't lend well to a "big system" thing
18:48:04 <tusho> only isolated programs
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19:51:31 <psygnisfive> rar!
19:52:38 <Slereah_> I AM WIN HEAR ME RAR
19:52:56 <psygnisfive> ::slereahpounce::
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19:58:50 <dogface> ::slereahpounce::
19:59:14 <Deewiant> ::slereahbounce::
19:59:43 <psygnisfive> woo! orgy! :D
20:00:18 <psygnisfive> ::cuddles slereah::
20:00:21 <psygnisfive> ::cuddles dogface::
20:00:25 <psygnisfive> ::cuddles deewiant::
20:00:37 * Deewiant escapes
20:00:45 <psygnisfive> D:
20:00:51 <psygnisfive> ::CUDDLES HARDER::
20:01:08 * Deewiant is gone
20:01:13 * dogface submits
20:01:24 * dogface is now compact
20:01:26 <psygnisfive> :D
20:01:27 <psygnisfive> good
20:01:33 <psygnisfive> now tell me about english syntax
20:01:45 * dogface is now pint-sized
20:01:54 <psygnisfive> ::drinks a pint of dogface::
20:02:02 * dogface is now in solution
20:02:19 <dogface> You hear a muffled squeak originating from your stomach.
20:02:23 <psygnisfive> well atleast you're not in precipitate :(
20:03:08 * dogface begins circulating in psygnisfive's blood stream
20:06:24 <psygnisfive> ::all warm and fuzzeh::
20:07:39 <psygnisfive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWkS2PkgmsE&feature=related
20:08:52 <tusho> <dogface> You hear a muffled squeak originating from your stomach
20:08:58 <tusho> vore? in MY #esoteric?
20:09:06 <tusho> (It's more likely blah blah etc.)
20:09:20 <dogface> I'm in solution, so it's not that bad.
20:09:37 <dogface> I mean, you hear a muffled squeak originating from psygnisfive's blood stream.
20:10:00 <tusho> Considering that vorephilia is a fetish, I imagine it's not that bad for a lot of people.
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21:42:20 <tusho> -6+
21:42:40 <tusho> oklofok: coolness got to 350000 but not in an hour
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21:48:06 <psygnisfive> oklofok :D
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22:08:28 <dogface> -6+ looks like something you'd find in a diff file.
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23:54:32 <psygnisfive> guys guys buys guys guys
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23:54:45 <psygnisfive> we should make a purely constraint based language
23:54:47 <psygnisfive> :D
23:55:18 <oklofok> yeah and we could call it CONSTIPATOR 2009
23:56:46 <psygnisfive> :P
23:56:55 <psygnisfive> ill tell you more when i get back from dinner
23:57:37 <oklofok> i'll be trying to sleep when you return.
23:57:59 <psygnisfive> ok. well in my absence, tell me (in pm) more about english syntax. :p

2008-08-26:

00:18:07 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
00:41:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Oh god it smells of java..
00:43:03 <dogface> Just what does purely constraint-based mean?
00:44:19 <dogface> Hmm. Indeed, we should do it.
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01:50:04 <psygnisfive> hey
01:50:25 <psygnisfive> i mean that the language, or rather, its syntax, is not generated by a set of rules
01:50:32 <psygnisfive> but rather is merely constrained
02:38:46 <dogface> The syntax is constrained?
02:39:11 <dogface> So there are most likely multiple consistent parses?
02:43:21 <psygnisfive> there are no parses :)
02:44:31 <psygnisfive> you just map syntactic entities to semantically relevant units by way of checking the constraints
02:44:55 <dogface> Oh.
02:45:11 <psygnisfive> an example of a constraint might be something like..
02:45:43 <psygnisfive> *unary-op[i] ... arg[i]
02:46:03 <psygnisfive> that is, its _invalid_ to have a unary operator separated from its argument
02:46:33 <psygnisfive> thats just a silly little constraint tho, but you get the point
02:47:00 <psygnisfive> i dont now how we could use it but
02:47:15 <psygnisfive> the mappings to semantics shouldn't be complicated tho
02:47:51 <psygnisfive> we could use a coindexing system to describe it
02:48:51 <psygnisfive> op{i} ... arg{j}[i] <===> op{i}(arg{j})
02:48:54 <psygnisfive> or something like that
02:49:18 <psygnisfive> or some mapping to an abstract syntax
02:49:52 <psygnisfive> op{i} ... arg{j}[i] <==> (op{i} arg{j})
02:50:28 <psygnisfive> if we're using lisp as the language to represent the abstract syntax
02:51:43 <psygnisfive> i dont know of any CS applications of constraint grammars tho, so i can't really say how it might look
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03:16:18 <Trinithis> esolangs?
03:16:58 <Trinithis> ah, the chan serv answers
03:17:21 <Trinithis> would anyone know chris pressey's email?
03:17:54 <Trinithis> or at least language specs for SMITH?
03:31:19 <dogface> Ello.
03:31:28 <dogface> I could probably get one or the other.
03:31:58 <dogface> Thank you for not leaving before anyone could answer your question. :-)
03:34:45 <dogface> This looks like a SMITH spec: http://catseye.tc/projects/smith/doc/smith.html
03:49:19 <Trinithis> Yeah I know... too bad its kinda vague
03:49:33 <Trinithis> thanks anyway
03:50:01 <Trinithis> GO ESOLANGS!!!!
03:50:28 <Trinithis> There should be an Esobot that is written in an esolang powerful enough to write one
03:51:46 <pikhq> Heh.
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06:41:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | lemme read....
06:58:37 <fizzie> optbot: Congratulations on picking a line that matches well with the backlog thing for the topic.
06:58:37 <optbot> fizzie: did either book mention schroedinger's cat?
06:58:54 <fizzie> optbot: Either book? Huh? What books are we talking about?
06:58:55 <optbot> fizzie: i think i can compile BF into it
06:59:09 <fizzie> optbot: BF into what? NURRR so confused.
06:59:09 <optbot> fizzie: lament!
06:59:15 <fizzie> optbot: optbot!
06:59:16 <optbot> fizzie: Why don't people in #esoteric understand the concept of writing it yourself for the sake of writing it yourself X_X
06:59:49 <fizzie> optbot: I would think that people in #esoteric would understand that relatively well, compared to programmers in general.
06:59:49 <optbot> fizzie: and I know they're not likely to fuck up the memory management
07:00:24 <fizzie> optbot: Well, I guess that's true too.
07:00:24 <optbot> fizzie: !ps
07:00:35 <fizzie> optbot: No processes running.
07:00:35 <optbot> fizzie: it's sauna, bye for a while..
07:00:44 <fizzie> Ok, bye.
07:00:53 <fizzie> (How does a bot go to sauna anyway?)
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09:34:10 <Mony> hi
09:35:12 <funktio> hi
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10:28:36 <Slereah_> Dudes.
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12:37:22 <fizzie> Gah, is FILE's 'R' supposed to sign-extend the bytes? At least RC/Funge-98 reads 0x80 as cell value -128...
12:38:10 <fizzie> The current manual says "Functions W and R write cells as bytes, any cells containing values greater than 255 will have the top bits stripped."
12:40:20 <fizzie> I already have to do 00ge1g*10g+e1g*20g+e1g*30g+ to read a 4-byte big-endian int (e1 has constant 256), I don't want to make it 00ge1g+e1g%e1g*... to turn that -128 into (-128 + 256) % 256 = 128.
12:41:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | in CLC-INTERCAL you can even change the grammar at runtime.
12:42:00 <fizzie> optbot: What do you think of my 'R' issue?
12:42:00 <optbot> fizzie: i don't know .. try it :)
12:42:13 <fizzie> optbot: But I just tried it! And it sign-extends! Should it?
12:42:14 <optbot> fizzie: TASTE GREEN GOO
12:42:45 <fizzie> That wasn't veryr helpful.
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13:22:32 <tusho> green goo solves everything, fizzie
13:22:35 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:22:50 <fizzie> optbot: Okay, where can I get me some green goo?
13:22:51 <optbot> fizzie: 'IT'?
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13:23:05 <tusho> fizzie: green go solves everything
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13:23:33 <fizzie> I noticed. I even asked optbot where I can get some, but the reply was just "'IT'?"
13:23:33 <optbot> fizzie: <__main__.IRCFileWrapper instance at 0xb7c8140c>
13:23:38 <tusho> fizzie: sorry client crashed
13:23:43 <tusho> didn't know if you got it
13:23:44 <tusho> hmm
13:23:48 <tusho> optbot: why are you exposing python internals?
13:23:48 <optbot> tusho: http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/99bottles.mp3
13:23:51 <tusho> You are written in Ruby.
13:23:56 <tusho> And I don't see how 99bob is related.
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13:27:40 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Gah, is FILE's 'R' supposed to sign-extend the bytes? At least RC/Funge-98 reads 0x80 as cell value -128... <-- no clue
13:27:45 <AnMaster> I think I don't sign extend it
13:27:57 <AnMaster> well not sure what I do actually
13:28:31 <AnMaster> indeed I don't think I sign extend
13:29:43 <AnMaster> unsigned char * restrict buf
13:29:44 <AnMaster> then
13:29:46 <fizzie> Yes, I peeked at cfunge sources and since the buffer there is unsigned char, I think you read the bytes as [0, 255].
13:29:50 <AnMaster> fread(buf, sizeof(unsigned char), n, fp) != (size_t)n
13:30:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, there you are then
13:30:10 <AnMaster> it is probably undef and you can't depend on it at all
13:30:15 <fizzie> Although "sizeof(unsigned char)" is pointless, it's always 1.
13:31:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, true
13:32:06 <fizzie> Gneh, and % on negative numbers was a bit UNDEF too, right?
13:32:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes it is
13:32:20 <AnMaster> that is the reason for MODU
13:33:36 <fizzie> Maybe I should use MODU 'U', then; e1gU is shorter than e1g+e1g%.
13:34:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe
13:34:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway why do you need chars greater than 127?
13:34:54 <fizzie> I'm reading 32-bit big-endian integers from a file.
13:34:57 <AnMaster> ah
13:35:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, may I ask why?
13:35:54 <fizzie> Well, basically because I happened to write 32-bit big-endian ints. Heh, maybe I'll "fix" it by only writing 7-bit characters, I don't need that much range anyway.
13:36:03 <AnMaster> um
13:36:07 <AnMaster> why big-endian
13:36:32 <fizzie> I like it. And since I'll be reading them as bytes, anyway, I'd rather use the endianness I like.
13:36:39 <AnMaster> any try to convert it will cause issues
13:36:46 <AnMaster> hm ok
13:37:19 <tusho> Big-endian is humanist. :-)
13:37:26 <AnMaster> true
13:37:34 <tusho> (For most, at least.)
13:37:41 <tusho> (I don't know of any little-endian number systems.)
13:37:49 <fizzie> "Some of my best friends are big-endian!"
13:38:42 <tusho> On little-endians' equality with big-endians: "I have a dream."
13:38:48 <AnMaster> I'm happy with either personally in computers. Mixed endian or such I dislike
13:38:59 <tusho> AnMaster: Apartheid, ey?
13:39:02 <tusho> You endianist.
13:39:16 <AnMaster> tusho, well mixed endian is confusing
13:39:30 <tusho> AnMaster: OH. You need numbers to be all in your nice little order, do you? Can't handle them being DIFFERENT?
13:39:44 <AnMaster> tusho, either big or little endian is ok for me
13:39:51 <tusho> But never both, eh?
13:39:53 <AnMaster> just not PDP endianness or similar
13:39:56 <tusho> They can never mingle. Marry. Have children.
13:40:07 <tusho> You disgusting pig of a man. You are stuck in the past!
13:40:09 <AnMaster> sigh, please stop trolling
13:40:18 <tusho> Stop biting the hook. :)
13:40:26 <AnMaster> I didn't
13:40:41 <AnMaster> I just assumed you would stop joking
13:41:01 <tusho> Why would repeating your opinion stop me joking?
13:41:04 <tusho> Also, this is #esoteric.
13:41:06 <tusho> Why would we stop joking?
13:41:26 <AnMaster> tusho, how is botte coming along?
13:41:31 <AnMaster> or any of your other projects?
13:41:59 <tusho> Quite well, in that "I could implement them right now no problem" but "I'd prefer to do this other thing because it interests me more at the moment".
13:42:17 <tusho> Chromosome is the current thing I'm mulling over.
13:42:27 <AnMaster> k
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14:29:29 <tusho> http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html/ref=cm_plog_item_link?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nigeltomm.com%2Fbookblock-9781419693618.pdf&token=424E8FEF642C211BEF677EB82C11599497EE4D77 <-- this is an actual printed book
14:30:29 <tusho> btw.
14:30:30 <tusho> CLUSTERS = %w(ab eb ob ub ac ec oc uc ad ed od ud af ef of uf ag eg og ug ah eh
14:30:30 <tusho> oh uh aj ej oj uj al el ol ul an en on un ap ep op up ar er or ur as es os us at
14:30:31 <tusho> et ot ut av ev ov uv aw ew ow uw az ez oz uz)
14:30:37 <tusho> anyone have any better two-letter clusters?
14:30:42 <tusho> they're strung together
14:30:49 <tusho> like "uzadutob" or "esowot"
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14:38:29 <tusho> hi Slereah_
14:38:32 <tusho> "esowot" reminded me of you
15:00:03 <AnMaster> tusho, they look like locale names to me
15:00:06 <AnMaster> not sure though
15:00:31 <tusho> no
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15:05:26 <tusho> AnMaster: did I say no?
15:05:27 <tusho> well, no
15:05:27 <tusho> :D
15:05:30 <tusho> I made them up
15:05:43 <tusho> each vowel sans i (confusion with e)
15:05:53 <tusho> followed by every consonant save c (confusion with k)
15:07:10 <tusho> unfortunately you can't get "shit"
15:07:11 <tusho> as it has no i
15:07:13 <tusho> what a shame
15:07:33 <tusho> not sure if you could get "fuck"
15:07:39 <tusho> nope
15:26:02 <tusho> anyway.
15:26:10 <tusho> just wondering if anyone has a better list of little clusteries.
15:37:19 <fizzie> I'm not sure what is "better" in this sense.
15:40:04 <AnMaster> tusho, what are the rules for combining them?
15:40:17 <tusho> AnMaster: Just base length-of-clusters.
15:40:24 <AnMaster> hm?
15:40:29 <tusho> fizzie: Well, I want you to be able to tell this to someone and then have them be able to type it out without much fuss.
15:40:32 <AnMaster> so you can pick any combination of then
15:40:34 <AnMaster> them*
15:40:36 <tusho> AnMaster: ... what?
15:40:43 <AnMaster> I don't get what you mean
15:40:48 <tusho> i can tell.
15:41:24 <tusho> AnMaster: base 10
15:41:27 <tusho> is {0,1,2,3,...,10}
15:41:32 <AnMaster> yes
15:41:36 <AnMaster> I know what base 10 is
15:41:42 <AnMaster> base 8 too and so on
15:41:42 <tusho> this is base {ab,eb,ob,etc}
15:41:48 <tusho> the digits are clusters of two letters
15:41:57 <tusho> and a number expressed in it is pronouncable
15:41:59 <AnMaster> so... ab = 0? eb = 1 and so on?
15:42:03 <AnMaster> err
15:42:03 <tusho> ab=1 actually
15:42:04 <AnMaster> ?
15:42:07 <tusho> 0 cannot be represented in it
15:42:09 <AnMaster> ah
15:42:09 <tusho> (because I don't need 0)
15:42:16 <tusho> anyway
15:42:23 <tusho> I was just asking if anyone has some more/better clusters to add to the list
15:42:33 <AnMaster> hm
15:42:41 <AnMaster> how do you define "better"?
15:43:04 <fizzie> You could just take the N most frequent character-pairs of <insert a favourite language>, if you don't mind the fact that there's no sense in the list then.
15:43:54 <AnMaster> well you could also take every possible combination of two letters that are valid in said language
15:43:56 <tusho> AnMaster: just as many as possible that can generate pronouncable words without too many ambiguities.
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15:44:17 <tusho> bkanift is not pronouncable
15:44:25 <tusho> cakailou is ambiguous
15:44:39 <AnMaster> tusho, bkanift is pronouncable
15:44:44 <tusho> AnMaster: not very
15:44:45 <AnMaster> not easily I agree
15:44:49 <tusho> it's not natural, anyway
15:44:50 <AnMaster> but still pronouncable
15:44:59 <tusho> and the latter is "Ca Ca Ill Oo"
15:45:00 <AnMaster> "cakailou is ambiguous"
15:45:01 <AnMaster> err
15:45:04 <tusho> could be cacailoo
15:45:05 <AnMaster> what do you mean?
15:45:07 <tusho> kakailu
15:45:07 <tusho> etc
15:45:13 <AnMaster> I don't know either of those words
15:45:17 <tusho> AnMaster: they're not words.
15:45:19 <AnMaster> ah
15:45:25 <tusho> but "cakailou" is not an acceptable output
15:45:28 <tusho> as it's pronounced "ca ca ill oo"
15:45:32 <tusho> which could be any number of things
15:45:36 <tusho> cacailoo, kakailu etc
15:45:48 <tusho> the current cluster pairs only have c, no k etc
15:45:57 <AnMaster> tusho, you couldn't get illo in your cluster I think
15:45:59 <tusho> and no i (sometimes "ee" as in e)
15:46:03 <tusho> AnMaster: yes - but I'd quite like to expand the list
15:46:11 <tusho> and possibly improve it to get more variety of words
15:46:13 <AnMaster> tusho, first reason: no i
15:46:19 <tusho> because CVCVCV (etc) is a bit boring
15:46:25 <tusho> and yes I know my current list is quite good at it
15:46:25 <AnMaster> yeah exactly
15:46:37 <tusho> but it could be better in the variation and size points
15:47:03 <AnMaster> <tusho> http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html/ref=cm_plog_item_link?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nigeltomm.com%2Fbookblock-9781419693618.pdf&token=424E8FEF642C211BEF677EB82C11599497EE4D77 <-- this is an actual printed book
15:47:04 <AnMaster> huh
15:47:08 <AnMaster> long chapter too
15:47:16 <tusho> yeah and only a few words
15:47:16 <tusho> :P
15:47:18 <AnMaster> and strange
15:47:24 <tusho> apparently that really long word means "girl or bitch"
15:47:35 <tusho> the other books that guy has written are great
15:47:37 <AnMaster> tusho, well I wonder what the other chapters are like
15:47:39 <tusho> he has like 20 chapters of that blah story
15:47:44 <AnMaster> ah
15:47:45 <tusho> AnMaster: each chapter is one book
15:47:48 <AnMaster> tusho, all are as long?
15:47:52 <tusho> dunno
15:47:52 <AnMaster> and as strange?
15:48:00 <tusho> but they're all mostly nonsensical sentences involving blah :D
15:48:03 <tusho> he also has this book about hamlet
15:48:06 <tusho> where he rearranged hamlet some way
15:48:12 <tusho> so you get sentences like "to help the help"
15:48:14 <AnMaster> tusho, well, I wouldn't buy that blah book
15:48:30 <tusho> AnMaster: i would buy all of them if I had the money, for the novelty of having a full collection
15:48:37 <tusho> i'd have scholarly discussions about them
15:48:56 <AnMaster> 1) it would be heavier than an omnibus edition of the The Lord of the Rings books
15:49:05 <AnMaster> 2) it would be wasted money
15:49:17 <tusho> it'd only be wasted money if you don't consider it art :P
15:49:49 <AnMaster> I do like art, just not all art
15:49:55 <AnMaster> I'm all for Mona Lisa and so on
15:49:56 <AnMaster> :P
15:50:07 <tusho> yawn
15:50:10 <tusho> paintings
15:50:13 <tusho> what a boring definition of art
15:50:24 <AnMaster> well I like other art too. hm...
15:50:40 <AnMaster> music could be considered art definitely
15:50:47 <tusho> i like conventional (pictures & music) kinds of art (although music isn't as often considered art as paintings, unfortunately)
15:50:51 <tusho> and strange (programs, etc)
15:50:53 <AnMaster> and I like Beethoven for example
15:50:57 <tusho> i consider some games art
15:51:02 <tusho> video or otherwise
15:51:06 <AnMaster> tusho, chess?
15:51:15 <tusho> AnMaster: yes
15:51:20 <AnMaster> interesting
15:51:26 <AnMaster> yes I can see what you mean
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17:01:11 * tusho decides to torture himself and gets ready to play Mondo Medicals & Mondo Agency
17:01:17 -!- kar8nga has joined.
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17:38:23 <dogface> This is a bluebell of changing English at runtime. And by "bluebell", I mean "example".
17:44:54 <dogface> In other news: ZFC + "ZFC is consistent" entails ZFC + "ZFC is consistent" + "ZFC + 'ZFC is consistent'" is consistent. Since ZFC + "ZFC is consistent" entails its own consistency, it is inconsistent; therefore, ZFC is also inconsistent. The only question now is why I thought that ZFC + "ZFC is consistent" entails ZFC + "ZFC is consistent" + "ZFC + 'ZFC is consistent'" is consistent.
17:45:29 <Slereah_> wat
17:45:40 <Slereah_> Let's buy some Zermelo Fried Chicken.
17:46:31 <dogface> Here we go: ZFC being consistent implies that ZFC + "ZFC is consistent" is also consistent. Turn that into an entailment, and you get the above eventually. There's certainly a hole here, though.
17:47:37 <dogface> In other news, consider this: you have a process that randomly outputs ( and ) characters. If it's output more ( than ), it outputs either with a 50% chance of each; if it's output an equal number, it always outputs (.
17:47:46 <Slereah_> So why is it inconsistent?
17:48:07 <dogface> In one case, it outputs either with a 50% chance; in another, it always outputs (. However, in the long run, it will output both with equal probability.
17:48:32 <dogface> ZFC is inconsistent because ZFC + "ZFC is consistent" is inconsistent?
17:48:41 <Slereah_> Is it?
17:48:48 <dogface> I doubt it.
17:49:16 <Slereah_> Then what are you ranting about
17:49:34 * dogface continues pondering
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18:08:39 <oklofok> dogface: are you as ugly as ihope you are?
18:08:56 * dogface throws a wisteria bush at oklofok
18:09:32 -!- oklofok has changed nick to oklopol.
18:10:21 <dogface> Now for something more important, how about.
18:10:22 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:11:18 <dogface> And by important, I mean interesting.
18:11:54 <oklopol> and by interesting you mean a rant about something weird?
18:12:10 <dogface> Yeah.
18:12:16 <oklopol> well go on
18:13:08 <dogface> Axioms: for all x, y and z, ```sxyz = ``xz`yx; for all x and y, ``kxy = x; for all x, `ix = x; s != k; for all x, y and z, if x = y and y = z, then x = z; for all x and y, if x = y, then y = x; for all x, x = y; and for all w, x, y and z, if w = x and y = z, then `wy = `xz.
18:13:29 <dogface> My client did silly quotation mark replacements, didn't it?
18:13:30 <lament> sounds terribly boring
18:13:45 <oklopol> lament: no
18:14:43 <dogface> See if you can prove `sk = `ki from these axioms, or at least show that there is no disproof of it.
18:17:44 <Slereah_> I'd love to, but I don't know where my pen is :(
18:18:27 <Slereah_> Found it
18:19:49 <Slereah_> I find it amusing that you use unlambda notation.
18:20:10 <Slereah_> It's not used a lot in combinators litterature
18:20:27 <Slereah_> Actually not at all, but there's a PN version sometimes
18:21:39 <dogface> Unlambda notation is slightly easier to parse. :-)
18:21:45 <Slereah_> Yeah
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18:22:42 <Slereah_> Nested parentheses are quite a nightmare
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18:28:13 <dogface> <expr> ::= {"S" | "K" | "I" | "(" <expr> ")"}
18:29:07 <oklopol> Slereah_: I'd love to, but I don't know where my pen is :( <<< i can see your pen is!
18:30:37 <lament> mightier than a sword?
18:34:22 <dogface> Better-in-a-way: <texpr> ::= "S" | "K" | "I" | "(" <lexpr> ")"; <lexpr> ::= <texpr> | <lexpr> <texpr>
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18:34:47 <tusho> .
18:34:57 <tusho> ...........................
18:34:58 <tusho> .
18:34:58 <dogface> He disliked my left recursion so much that he left.
18:35:06 <dogface> ...........................
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18:35:56 <Slereah_> dogface!
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18:36:19 <Slereah_> "for all x, x = y" <- I think you mean x=x
18:36:28 <dogface> Probably.
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18:37:26 <Vampire_Squif> Rar >:|
18:37:54 <GregorR> Zip.
18:38:09 <oklopol> i used to say rar
18:38:14 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:38:17 <oklopol> GregorR used to respond "zip"
18:39:06 <dogface> Rar and feather.
18:40:14 <GregorR> Heh, somebody should invent tags for .tar files called "feathers", so you can tar and feather your files.
18:41:11 <Vampire_Squif> Also, if you were implying that you can't prove `sk = `ki with that, I think I know why
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18:41:50 <Vampire_Squif> Your axioms don't seem to specify that if two combinators act the same way on a bunch of variables, they're the same
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18:42:56 <Slereah> I'm not exactly sure how to write that up.
18:43:06 <oklopol> 20:13… lament: sounds terribly boring ||| 20:13… oklopol: lament: no <<< this was actually a response to dogface's
18:44:10 <dogface> So `` looks like two accent marks, not a curly double quote?
18:46:18 <dogface> Slereah: that's because it's impossible. >:-D
18:47:12 <dogface> It wouldn't remain a formal system if you did that, unless you did it in first-order logic, but then you can't really express first-order logic as a formal system.
18:55:54 <oklopol> dogface: it looks like what it is
18:57:08 <tusho> “Real quotes.‘
18:57:09 <tusho> err
18:57:11 <tusho> “Real quotes.”
18:58:07 <dogface> ``Silly quotes.''
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18:59:08 <Slereah> dogface : You can try!
18:59:29 <Slereah> I'm sure that you can cook something up good enough for a proof of that
18:59:55 <tusho> dogface: The name of those is actually quite obscene.
19:00:00 <tusho> *t quotes.
19:00:01 <dogface> My guess is that `sk = `ki cannot be proved and therefore should be an axiom.
19:00:04 <tusho> Where * = many letters.
19:00:18 <dogface> * = grave accen?
19:00:59 <dogface> I think the word "grave" in "grave accent" is one word that I've seen many, many times, but heard once or twice at the very most.
19:02:03 <Slereah> dogface : That's quite a bold position
19:02:20 <Slereah> Also it might even be easy to prove if you had the underlying lambda calculus
19:02:25 <Slereah> add
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19:26:48 <Slereah_> D:<
19:31:54 * sebbu just bought a 1tb hard disk
19:32:44 <Slereah_> I probably have 1TB total
19:32:48 <Slereah_> With my 7 HD.
19:54:10 <fizzie> Huh. How can (with "FILE" loaded latest) 08R push 0, 0 on stack? It's supposed to pop two values and push none, and reflect on error.
19:55:18 <fizzie> RC/Funge-98 seems to push two zeros if the read returns zero bytes (i.e. at EOF). That's... a bit surprising.
19:56:02 <fizzie> Can't say I really understand the logic there. The code is clear enough -- if (fread(...) == 0) { Push(0,cip); Push(0,cip); return; } -- but the reason eludes me.
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20:26:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, what interpreter does that?
20:26:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm
20:27:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, R here pushes handle *back* if there wasn't any error
20:27:20 <AnMaster> if there was an error it doesn't push anything back
20:27:23 <AnMaster> well
20:27:29 <AnMaster> that depends on where the error happened
20:27:33 <AnMaster> it all looks very strange ot me
20:27:35 <AnMaster> to*
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20:29:42 <AnMaster> R(h n -- h)Read n bytes from file to buffer
20:29:49 <AnMaster> yes it should push handle back
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20:33:14 <tusho> fizzie: simple
20:33:28 <tusho> x = fread(...); push(x); if (x == 0) { push(0); }
20:33:29 <tusho> or something
20:33:34 <tusho> i dunno
20:34:20 <Deewiant> tusho: he pasted the code
20:34:30 <tusho> ah
20:34:36 <tusho> thought that was hypothetical code
20:39:39 <AnMaster> well I don't get it either
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21:06:42 <AnMaster> night
21:20:01 <fizzie> Yes, it should keep the handle on the stack, mis-said that. But that "push two zeroes" thing is strange.
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22:41:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, agreed
23:02:27 <tusho> "IRC makes your life miserable and leaves you an empty shell.
23:02:28 <tusho> Too many psychopaths ruining your mood."
23:02:29 <tusho> OH NOES
23:02:41 * tusho goes and ruins his mood with his PSYCHOPATHICITY
23:02:42 <tusho> WHAT NOW
23:02:51 * tusho notices he himself is an empty shell
23:02:53 <tusho> COOL
23:03:03 * tusho pokes the emptiness of his shell
23:05:31 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:07:51 * oerjan fills tusho's shell with PUDDING
23:08:06 <tusho> cool
23:08:11 <tusho> om nom nom nom nom
23:09:18 <oerjan> (butterscotch, not tapioka)
23:09:49 <Slereah_> Butter?
23:09:54 <Slereah_> I hardly know her!
23:10:12 <oerjan> and scotch, too
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23:19:01 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language
23:19:02 <Slereah_> Ahahah
23:19:11 <Slereah_> "# EsCo - Universal compiler for esoteric languages"
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23:36:45 <Mony> night
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2008-08-27:

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02:32:20 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hashes
02:32:28 <Slereah_> Will this man ever do something with specs!
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04:51:16 <Sgeo> My dad's being a jackass. Bye all
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06:01:26 <pikhq> ... ?
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06:34:12 <oklopol> To run a ### program, type a #. <<< :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
06:34:31 <oklopol> umm, that was all i returned to say
06:34:31 <oklopol> ->
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06:41:36 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | are you going to put any terps on it yet?.
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09:23:27 <Mony> hi
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12:41:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | good.
12:47:34 <tusho> heh
12:48:44 <Mony> optbot ?
12:48:44 <optbot> Mony: And the suits & ties are themselves implying that they speak from authority. . .
12:48:56 <Mony> :o
12:50:22 <tusho> optbot
12:50:22 <optbot> tusho: There is no such thing.
12:50:24 <tusho> :D
12:51:15 <fizzie> optbot: You do not exist?
12:51:16 <optbot> fizzie: ZzzOW! I fell out of bed!
12:51:34 <Mony> lol
12:51:57 <fizzie> optbot: Do bots dream of electric... uh... #sheep?
12:51:57 <optbot> fizzie: also tell me: what is "concise lisp"?
12:52:36 <fizzie> optbot: Scheme. :p
12:52:36 <optbot> fizzie: I know what an array is.. and I'm guessing a cell is a content of the array.
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13:09:01 <tusho> hi ais523
13:09:34 <ais523> tusho: when did you get here?
13:09:40 <ais523> bad client!
13:09:40 <tusho> 11:30
13:09:40 <ais523> bad
13:09:42 <tusho> why? :D
13:09:46 <ais523> tusho: it said you weren't here
13:09:49 <tusho> ha
13:10:05 <fizzie> Your client is opinionated.
13:10:18 <ais523> normally it gets it right, no idea why it was wrong this time
13:10:37 <fizzie> Maybe tusho is just so unremarkable.
13:11:08 <tusho> ais523: you'll find this interesting/amusing as an emacs user - You know Aza Raskin, son of UI designer Jeff Raskin? Advocator of non-modal interfaces, verb-based stuff, etc. He's helped make "Ubiquity" for Mozilla - it's kind of hard to describe in one line because it's one of those generic "You can have stuff and combine stuff with other stuff to make more stuff" things, so just read and watch I guess: http://labs.mozilla.com/2008/08/introducing-ubiquity/
13:11:11 <tusho> i bet that got cut off.
13:11:15 <tusho> here'st he second half just in case
13:11:21 <tusho> illa - it's kind of hard to describe in one line because it's one of those generic "You can have stuff and combine stuff with other stuff to make more stuff" things, so just read and watch I guess: http://labs.mozilla.com/2008/08/introducing-ubiquity/
13:11:31 <fizzie> Actually it did not get cut off.
13:11:34 <ais523> actually it didn't get cut off
13:12:34 <tusho> Actually, get cut off it didn't.
13:15:10 <fizzie> Did it, cut off not get! Actually.
13:15:39 <tusho> Did not it off actually get cut.
13:19:21 <ais523> tusho: oh dear, I was looking through esolang's Recent Changes
13:19:27 <tusho> ?
13:19:32 <tusho> More esme?
13:19:33 <ais523> apparently the creator of Esme has made a new language
13:19:39 <tusho> Awesome.
13:19:41 <ais523> which makes just as much sense
13:19:56 <tusho> ###b#ott#les#of#b#eer o#n t#he #w#all#, ###lovely ###[[Esme]]ralda ###o#n ###t#h#e  #b#ee#r...
13:19:59 <tusho> that is the best line on the esowiki
13:20:01 <tusho> prove me wrong
13:20:30 <tusho> ais523: hmm, generally a troll wouldn't keep trolling tiny bits if no-one's listening
13:20:31 <ais523> I know you want to be proved wrong, but unfortunately all the very best lines never seem to end up on Esolang
13:20:47 <tusho> so ... what the hell is he doing?
13:21:05 <tusho> due to the crap about esmeraldavfdwiki on the Esme talk page, hes' obviously not serious
13:21:17 <tusho> but ... what? does he think it's some kind of subtle hilarious humour?
13:21:19 <tusho> if so, what's the funny part?
13:21:25 <ais523> it reminds me a bit of SpectateSwamp, actually
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13:21:28 <ais523> not nearly as bad though
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13:21:37 <tusho> ais523: 'created as a lol'
13:21:39 <tusho> evidently not
13:21:43 <tusho> also [[Here's a example url of Esme in wiki software: http://www.vfd.org/esmeralda-cgi-bin/esme-wiki.pl?id=VeeBeeWiki:Uncyclopedia.css
13:21:43 <tusho> Dagoth Ur, Mad God 02:31, 2 July 2008 (UTC) ]]
13:21:49 <tusho> so, obviously not serious
13:22:10 <ais523> I don't know... the whole thing looks serious, but all the links are dead and none of the leads go anywhere
13:22:26 <ais523> it's like seeing a snippet of something extracted from a universe where it makes sense and placed here
13:22:30 <ais523> so the whole thing is out of context
13:22:47 <tusho> ais523: but he says 'created as a lol'
13:22:53 <tusho> and seems to be trolling zzo38 with that
13:22:59 <tusho> [[It works by tapping out "ESME" into Morse code, then writing "Esme" in to the papers. Dagoth Ur, Mad God 07:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC) ]]
13:23:10 <tusho> there is no universe that both has the esowiki and in which that makes sense
13:23:10 <ais523> well, aren't most esolangs created as a joke, originally?
13:23:16 <ais523> that's most esolangs, not most serious esolangs
13:23:19 <tusho> ais523: yes, but then they're marked as jokes
13:23:20 <Slereah> Yeah, but even a joke language needs some sort of specs.
13:23:27 <tusho> these are just ... absurdist artwork pieces
13:23:30 <ais523> yes
13:23:34 <Slereah> Otherwise, it's just "LOL RANDOM"
13:23:34 <Slereah> And fuck that
13:23:35 <tusho> that the author trolls about when asked to explain
13:23:43 <tusho> except ... the art isn't funny or thought-provoking
13:23:47 <tusho> or any other traits commonly attributed to art
13:23:53 <ais523> maybe that's the art in it
13:23:54 <ais523> it's anti-art
13:23:57 <tusho> ais523: deep
13:24:03 <ais523> a sort of art so modern that people don't appreciate it yet
13:24:19 <ais523> wasn't there an art movement which found art in taking ordinary things and calling them art?
13:24:25 <tusho> post-retroism
13:28:24 <tusho> Ooh.
13:28:28 <tusho> Multiplayer Darwinia.
13:28:35 <tusho> That sounds nice, Introversion software. Is it out yet?
13:28:38 <tusho> Aw. 6 wks.
13:28:45 <ais523> anyway, I actually got gcc to compile something into ABI today
13:28:52 <ais523> it's still buggy though and fails on complex programs
13:29:07 <tusho> wow
13:29:16 <tusho> ais523: what does hello world look like in ABI?
13:29:19 <tusho> and how easy is ABI->bf?
13:29:36 <ais523> tusho: each ABI command corresponds to a BF subroutine, so it's mostly just search and replace
13:29:40 <ais523> although using named cells
13:29:55 <ais523> and I haven't programmed output yet, but it would look something like this:
13:30:01 <ais523> mov.8 $72, %scratch
13:30:07 <ais523> out %scratch
13:30:12 <tusho> ais523: cool
13:30:16 <ais523> mov.8 $101, %scratch
13:30:59 <tusho> oh, and I'm actually writing a perl web app with a continuation-based web server
13:31:09 <tusho> never has a stranger combination of non-esoteric technologies appeared
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13:32:00 <tusho> (actually it went something like this: this will be hell without continuations. i don't feel like learning the smalltalk environment more than I already do right now. ok, hm, I can only think of one other in a language I sort-of(barely)-know - Continuity for Perl.)
13:32:48 <ais523> out %scratch
13:32:48 <ais523> and so on
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13:33:06 <tusho> farewell
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13:34:14 <ais523> [13:29] <ais523> tusho: each ABI command corresponds to a BF subroutine, so it's mostly just search and replace
13:34:17 <ais523> [13:29] <ais523> although using named cells
13:34:19 <ais523> [13:29] <ais523> and I haven't programmed output yet, but it would look something like this:
13:34:21 <ais523> [13:30] <ais523> mov.8 $72, %scratch
13:34:23 <ais523> [13:30] <ais523> out %scratch
13:34:24 <tusho> did you get my latest messages?
13:34:25 <ais523> [13:30] <ais523> mov.8 $101, %scratch
13:34:26 <tusho> and I saw all of that
13:34:27 <ais523> [13:30] <ais523> out %scratch
13:34:29 <ais523> [13:30] <ais523> and so on
13:34:29 <tusho> kthx
13:34:31 <ais523> [13:32] <ais523> the syntax is designed to look very like asm
13:34:31 <tusho> yes
13:34:32 <tusho> then you left
13:34:33 <tusho> ah
13:34:33 <ais523> [13:32] <ais523> because gcc is good at asm
13:34:35 <ais523> [13:32] <ais523> well, at outputting it
13:34:39 <tusho> and ais523 is good at flooding
13:34:41 <ais523> optbot, am I online?
13:34:41 <optbot> ais523: Compiles C to BF
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13:34:46 <tusho> yes ais523
13:34:47 <ais523> tusho: no
13:34:47 <tusho> you are
13:34:56 <tusho> ok here are my latest
13:35:02 <ais523> optbot: that's exactly what I'm doing
13:35:03 <optbot> ais523: [3] is always of length 1
13:35:26 <tusho> 05:30:59 <tusho> oh, and I'm actually writing a perl web app with a continuation-based web server
13:35:26 <tusho> 05:31:09 <tusho> never has a stranger combination of non-esoteric technologies appeared
13:35:26 <tusho> 05:32:00 <tusho> (actually it went something like this: this will be hell without continuations. i don't feel like learning the smalltalk environment more than I already do right now. ok, hm, I can only think of one other in a language I sort-of(barely)-know - Continuity for Perl.)
13:35:55 <ais523> heh
13:36:05 <ais523> does Perl have a continuation-based web server yet
13:36:10 <tusho> of course
13:36:11 <tusho> continuity
13:36:14 <ais523> ah
13:36:24 <tusho> it's not the typical type of thing
13:36:31 <tusho> (refreshing makes it go on to the next step and it uses some weird coroutine stuff)
13:36:39 <tusho> but it should be good for what i'm doing
13:36:39 <tusho> http://continuity.tlt42.org/
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14:04:54 -!- jix has joined.
14:05:28 * tusho gets ready to write some perl
14:05:34 * tusho weeps
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14:16:09 <fizzie> I probably brokeded it, but let's try anyway.
14:16:11 <fizzie> ^reload
14:16:12 <fungot> Reloaded.
14:16:37 <ais523> fizzie: how do you run a BF program on fungot again?
14:16:51 <fizzie> I added that ngram babbley gen to fungot. The token-to-string conversion doesn't have all the fancy punctuation-to-good-looking-text tricks, though.
14:17:01 <tusho> ^help
14:17:04 <tusho> ^commands
14:17:06 <fizzie> Huh, it should've responded since I mentioned the name.
14:17:12 <fizzie> I think I brokeded it indeed.
14:17:14 <tusho> lol i bokr
14:17:17 <ais523> optbot: meet fungot
14:17:18 <optbot> ais523: stack->top is the stack size?
14:17:18 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:17:41 <fizzie> Actually ais523 broke it when mentioning fungot. Curious, it worked when I tested it locally.
14:19:59 <fizzie> Oh, the chroot user does not have privileges to read the data files. Heh.
14:20:43 -!- fungot has joined.
14:20:47 <tusho> hi fungot
14:20:48 <fizzie> ^help
14:20:48 <fungot> tusho: i used the original fnord background for added flair
14:20:48 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
14:20:56 <tusho> Fungot, optbot, converse.
14:20:56 <optbot> tusho: Gregor is incapable of design decisions.
14:21:02 <tusho> fungot, optbot, converse.
14:21:03 <optbot> tusho: and some other stuff
14:21:03 <fungot> tusho: 1. fnord, fnord
14:21:11 <tusho> fungot, shut up about fnord
14:21:12 <fungot> tusho: so sksk is invalid??? only 1 up??? :-d :-d l0l"? clone ( to get the size under 500 instructions depending where it comes from the ' hood. she's a fnord psychic fnord who dreams of becoming elvis. they fight crime!"
14:21:16 <fizzie> It seems to be curiously fnord-based.
14:21:29 <tusho> fungot: your punctuation balancing fails
14:21:30 <fungot> tusho: the computer was a dude that had a very busy day so going to use funge-93 because tusho said i should use
14:21:30 <ais523> optbot: fungot:
14:21:31 <fungot> ais523: it has syntax for arbitrary graphs, so that i can easily understand it)) ( gentoo 4.1.2 p1.0.2)
14:21:31 <optbot> ais523: These are the voyages ... of the starship zucchini.
14:21:47 <ais523> are they both quoting at random from the logs?
14:22:35 <fizzie> fungot uses ngrams built from log data to generate babble; pretty close to a traditional markov chain thing. optbot quotes lines intact.
14:22:35 <optbot> fizzie:   def inject(base, &blk)
14:22:35 <fungot> fizzie: you mean at fnord? i'm assuming it was the era of the disbelievingness, it was a blinking red zone in my eyes now... that'd be a really, really fnord way to define what happens at the edges
14:22:56 <ais523> ah, presumably fnord happens often enough to Markov well
14:23:17 <ais523> fungot: hi
14:23:18 <fungot> ais523: its biconditional. there are the front rounded vowels, of course.) the only state ( besides the contents of a sequence
14:23:24 <fizzie> The fnord thing is because I only took tokens that occurred >1 times in the vocabulary, and mapped all OOV words to fnord.
14:23:26 <ais523> it seems to be confused by parentheses
14:23:48 <tusho> fizzie:
14:23:51 <tusho> you said you made sure they balanced.
14:23:51 <fizzie> Yes, the non-Funge-98 prototype had tricks to make the punctuation match correctly, but I haven't ported those in yet.
14:23:52 <tusho> you lied.
14:23:54 <tusho> ah
14:24:03 <tusho> fungot: but who was phone?
14:24:09 <tusho> It broked.
14:24:17 <fizzie> Hmm.
14:24:30 <fizzie> It's still seeing them messages.
14:24:33 <fizzie> fungot, are you there?
14:24:45 <ais523> ^help
14:24:45 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
14:24:48 <fizzie> The babble generation broke. That's curious.
14:25:02 <fizzie> Don't you like it when your name is mentioned at the beginning, fungot? No, that can't be it.
14:25:10 <ais523> ^bf ,>++++++[<-------->-],[<+>-]<.!43
14:25:11 <fungot> 7
14:25:32 <ais523> (someone asked that in #irp a few minutes ago, so I thought it would be a good test)
14:25:47 <fizzie> Very strange. His higher brain functionality broke down, but basic (unconscious?) systems seem to be working.
14:26:21 <fizzie> Maybe it doesn't close the files properly and RC/Funge has some sort of limit. Must test locally.
14:27:36 <fizzie> Sources are again at http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt -- I like the big triangle of punctuation handling.
14:28:20 <tusho> fizzie: That is like the biggest Funge-98 program ever.
14:28:34 <ais523> that's pretty
14:28:38 <ais523> tusho: you've obviously never seen Mycology
14:28:46 <tusho> Mycology wasn't that big, was it?
14:29:28 <fizzie> Mycology is pretty big; and wide, too. I haven't gone over 80 columns with fungot.
14:29:33 <ais523> tusho: Mycology's about twice as long, and wider
14:29:41 <tusho> hm, okay.
14:29:50 <fizzie> Heh, it can generate exactly 7 lines of commentary, then it's brain freezes up.
14:30:14 <ais523> fizzie: sounds like a file handle problem, then
14:30:18 <ais523> or some other resource running out
14:30:35 <fizzie> RC-Funge's funge.h has #define MAX_FFILES 15, and it uses two files when generating babble.
14:30:49 <fizzie> So that's probably it. I should be closing the files properly, though.
14:31:23 <fizzie> Actually it's a RC/Funge bug.
14:31:45 <fizzie> 'C' does not set the file handle to NULL, only fclose()s it. So it doesn't find free file handles.
14:32:43 <fizzie> Apparently no-one has tested it with a program that would open more than 15 files during it's lifetime.
14:34:53 <fizzie> Eh, even after fixing that bug it won't handle more than 15 comments. :/
14:40:47 -!- fungot has quit ("must restart to catch the interpreter fix").
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14:41:28 <fizzie> Also changed maximum ngram order from 4 to 5 which makes fungot copy more stuff verbatim.
14:41:29 <fungot> fizzie: http://tr.froup.com/ fnord looks like someone's been monitoring atom decay again..." " me sprite, you thirst" " what?" for me?) the same length and starting with p.)"
14:41:53 <fizzie> fungot: That wasn't a good example.
14:41:54 <fungot> fizzie: or fnord? :-p) if that's what you mean. give the properties of different layers of a nested structure rather than building up the nest yourself? what about ado? :p
14:43:02 <fizzie> I guess I should port also the punctuation tricks, currently fungot seems like a horrible typoist.
14:43:03 <fungot> fizzie: argh i need 1 additional register and look at the code it generates? http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/ wiki/ jumping_to_-1_is_exciting
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14:43:51 <fizzie> ^show
14:43:51 <fungot> echo reverb rev
14:44:01 <tusho> ^show
14:44:01 <fungot> echo reverb rev
14:44:04 <fizzie> Seems I haven't even messed up the persistence storage yet.
14:44:07 <tusho> ^reverb fungot
14:44:08 <fungot> ffuunnggoott
14:44:13 <tusho> ^echo optbot
14:44:13 <optbot> tusho: although the compiler is hard to understand.. it's probably a good subset to work with
14:44:13 <fungot> optbot optbot
14:44:14 <optbot> fungot: iCanHasMemory
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14:44:15 <fungot> optbot: even if it doesn't halt. the issue is, i think, just with a different precedence for some of the oddness i find with meta, istr
14:44:15 <optbot> fungot: so what? :>
14:44:16 <fungot> optbot: including new content and stuff without it
14:44:16 <optbot> fungot: sorry.
14:44:17 <fungot> optbot: or is it possible to write a program without them, or are they located near the sea? :) imagine if the state of the art is a fnord way to win in a contest. i was the only one, tbh
14:44:17 <optbot> fungot: if it fails, the next case is tried
14:44:17 <fungot> optbot: here ' hillo' means ' jam'
14:44:18 <optbot> fungot: hahaha
14:44:19 <fungot> optbot: that's because you don't keep them in your head, using these stack signatures: ps ( thread-id 5) ( get test) this should return 5, because test stores its state
14:44:19 <optbot> fungot: ie wouldnt apply for gamma
14:44:20 <fungot> optbot: here's the irc bot wrapper code: http://www.rafb.net./paste/ results/ fnord this is some kind of concert center? i'll include it if you do the callstack then you're mostly fine
14:44:20 <optbot> fungot: slow bit programming
14:44:22 <tusho> *g*
14:44:22 <fungot> optbot: fnord/ cgi-bin/ twiki/ view/ main/ colorforth
14:44:23 <optbot> fungot: qrstuvwxyz{|}~������������������������������������
14:44:24 <fungot> optbot: it's faster than brfd on ppc but slower on pgimeno's computer!
14:44:25 <optbot> fungot: It's an alpha version, and doesn't support custom domains and no builtin domains other than 0-2 have been defined
14:44:26 <fungot> optbot: or fnord. :-p) if that's what you mean. but chicken has an fnord for pattern matching.... head hurts... from trying to... code... in my prototype jumprope code.
14:44:26 <optbot> fungot: damn i was right :(
14:44:27 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:44:28 <ais523> fungot: hi
14:44:32 <tusho> that was epic
14:44:41 <fizzie> Okay, maybe that was a bit much. :p
14:44:52 <fizzie> We have had bot loops before, but this time they were talking.
14:44:55 <ais523> hey, I spend hours setting up a botloop the first time
14:45:01 <tusho> yeah, sentient botloops
14:45:02 <ais523> and here tusho does it in a few seconds...
14:45:23 <ais523> <fungot> this is some kind of concert center? i'll include it if you do the callstack then you're mostly fine
14:45:37 * ais523 likes that sentence
14:45:41 <ais523> or pair of sentences
14:45:50 <tusho> it sounds like poetry, or maybe lyrics
14:57:27 <tusho> ais523: how do you pass a reference to a variable name in perl again?
14:57:35 <tusho> like, I give it foo and then it can set my $foo
14:57:50 <ais523> to the variable itself or its name?
14:57:56 <ais523> \$foo gives you a reference to $foo
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14:58:05 <tusho> the variable won't be set when I pass it
14:58:07 <ais523> and $$ref dereferences it if the reference was assigned to $foo
14:58:30 <ais523> alternatively to reference the name, if $ref is "foo" then $$ref will be $foo
14:58:37 <ais523> the first method is normally the recommended one
14:58:51 <ais523> because it scopes correctly
14:59:07 <tusho> okay.
14:59:08 <fizzie> And if you "use strict refs" or "use strict", you can't do $$foo when $foo is a string. I think.
14:59:13 <tusho> so if I do \$foo
14:59:16 <tusho> it can set my foo.
14:59:17 <tusho> great.
14:59:31 <ais523> yes
15:00:57 <tusho> gawd, modern perl is so ... weird
15:01:04 <tusho> i can understand old procedural perl
15:01:12 <tusho> but when this object-oriented coroutine ... stuff comes in
15:01:15 <tusho> my brain explodes
15:01:27 <ais523> well, it all gets confusing when you mess around with *
15:01:41 <ais523> *ref is the object in which the variables named ref (like $ref, @ref, %ref) are stored
15:01:47 <ais523> and there are various reasons to manipulate it
15:01:50 <ais523> none of which I really understand
15:01:56 <tusho> so, if I get a \$foo called $bar I can assign to the calling scopes $foo with $$bar = ...;
15:02:02 <ais523> yes
15:02:06 <ais523> think of it like a pointer in C
15:02:10 <ais523> but garbage-collected
15:02:17 <ais523> \$foo is a pointer to the $foo you have at the moment
15:02:34 <tusho> yes
15:03:14 <tusho> You can't have an array member of an object, right?
15:03:18 <tusho> Has to be an array ref?
15:04:29 <fizzie> If by "object" you mean a hash, indeed a hash value must be a scalar, for example an array reference.
15:04:47 <fizzie> But of course in Perl an "object" can be anything you care to bless.
15:05:08 <fizzie> (Most people do use hashes since they are easy to store member variables in.)
15:05:44 <tusho> a Moose object
15:05:47 <tusho> and seems I'm right
15:05:56 <tusho> Hmm. Oh dear.
15:06:04 <tusho> AUTOLOAD is Perl's method_missing, right?
15:06:15 <tusho> Apparently it doesn't work with Moose. A shame, since I'm writing essentially the same method over and over again.
15:06:22 <tusho> When it could be very trivially automated by a method_missingy thing.
15:06:54 <fizzie> You can probably write a method which will stick those methods in.
15:07:19 <ais523> tusho: yes, autoload tricks are quite common and often conflict with each other
15:07:26 <tusho> fizzie: Ah, true.
15:07:31 <tusho> I can just do it in the constructor thingy.
15:07:33 <tusho> I think
15:08:46 <fizzie> I think there's even an example of "how to programmatically generate similar-looking methods and stick them into a package" in one of the perl manpages. At least I saw one somewhere.
15:12:59 <tusho> Hmm.
15:13:06 <tusho> Why do I continually grow to like Perl more and more?
15:13:48 <ais523> because it runs so counter to expectations
15:13:56 <ais523> it seems designed to be ruthlessly pragmatic, whatever the cost
15:14:08 <tusho> And it is.
15:14:20 <tusho> But it turns out, ruthless pragmatism produces crazy metaprogramming beauty.
15:14:28 <tusho> Because that's nicer to use.
15:15:13 <ais523> yes
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15:15:46 <tusho> Mmph. The class system irritates me so, though.
15:15:49 <tusho> Hi fungot.
15:15:50 <fungot> tusho: plof operator overloading. possible? each of the inner loops has the same number of "" as a sexual organ.
15:15:54 <tusho> XDDDDDDD
15:15:59 <tusho> each of the inner loops has the same number of "" as a sexual organ.
15:16:02 <ais523> as in, 0?
15:16:12 <ais523> but yes, hi fungot
15:16:13 <fungot> ais523: i only use firefox to surf the web in japanese... formal " desu" or " de fnord" ( the latter being more formal), plan " da". looking at old exams here, ' introduction to theoretical computer science' exam tomorrow. " s asc e", " e fnord _". then something just snapped and i wrote a goddamn gc
15:16:39 <tusho> desu or de fnord
15:16:42 <tusho> the latter being more formal
15:16:42 <tusho> XDDDDD
15:16:46 <fizzie> I made fungot to answer only 4 consecutive babble messages to the same nickname. So you need a lot trickier loop now.
15:16:46 <fungot> fizzie: like in english, " fnord"
15:16:53 <tusho> DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD DE FNORD
15:17:07 <fizzie> ^rev tobtpo
15:17:08 <fungot> optbot
15:17:08 <optbot> fungot: even
15:17:09 <fungot> optbot: print " unknown fnord ahr ahr u sux0r" naked?" suggests you try using " this" is that it's the only font on my system with the cjk characters. then at least we might be able to use any tcp
15:17:09 <optbot> fungot: Killed 2.
15:17:10 <fungot> optbot: just make things fnord.
15:17:10 <optbot> fungot: guys- I just put the finishing touches on the game I've been building this week- check it out! http://rodger.nonlogic.org/games/steamlock/
15:17:11 <fungot> optbot: name ' fooo' is not defined"? :) i don't understand... the whole of python was coded so that each datatype is an object to a class... but that won't come into play in the language itself
15:17:11 <optbot> fungot: *I'd
15:17:12 <fungot> optbot: i remember doing that on some newsgroup :o could that *be* less intuitive... according to it's own rules, right? so it's no surprise you have some command of swedish
15:17:12 <optbot> fungot: perhaps :D
15:17:19 <fizzie> There, it stopped.
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15:17:35 <fizzie> It's still quite a "flood the channel with nonsense" command, but at least it's finite.
15:17:46 <ais523> but it's amusing nonsense
15:18:25 <tusho> fizzie: Just add a kill-command-execution command.
15:18:25 <fizzie> The punctuation needs fixing. Especially "s are ugly..
15:18:28 <tusho> So we can just stop it.
15:19:00 <fizzie> That's a bit tricky, since there is no concurrency in it. I guess I could add an "ignore next N messages" command which would do the same thing.
15:19:29 <Deewiant> "don't do next thing that you would do"
15:19:29 <fizzie> Or I guess that's pretty much what you meant.
15:19:39 <fizzie> "Don't do what Jesus would od."
15:22:27 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
15:31:51 <tusho> Hmm.
15:32:15 <tusho> How _DO_ you make a string uppercase in Perl...
15:34:26 <ais523> uc
15:34:31 <ais523> built-in function
15:34:44 <ais523> so $str=uc $str to upcase $str
15:34:54 <ais523> or obviously you don't have to do it in place
15:35:23 <tusho> s/_(.)/uc $1/eg, then.
15:36:09 <ais523> yes, to replace _a with A and so on
15:36:38 <tusho> then I need to uppercase the first letter.
15:36:39 <tusho> hm.
15:36:46 <ais523> ucfirst?
15:36:55 <ais523> that exists too I think
15:37:13 <ais523> tusho: ah, you're trying to convert underscore-based variable names to UpperCamelCase
15:37:18 <ais523> I was wondering what you were doing
15:37:18 <tusho> yeah
15:37:45 <tusho> ais523: making an $obj->foo_bar call make an Baz::Quux::FooBar instance
15:43:00 <tusho> Hmm.
15:44:05 <tusho> Damn, my directory tree is like 6 depths in.
15:45:33 <tusho> can I use a variable?
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15:56:03 <tusho> Hmm.
15:56:07 <tusho> Does Perl have a gensym-alike?
15:56:30 <ais523> definitely, I've seen libraries using it
15:56:35 <ais523> don't know what it's called, though
15:56:38 <ais523> and it's from CPAN somewhere
15:56:44 <ais523> rather than part of the language
15:56:52 <tusho> ais523: Is this where you RAGE about CPAN?
15:57:03 <ais523> no, I only rage about CPAN when provoked
15:57:09 <ais523> normally I just seeth and make snarky comments
15:57:14 <tusho> hey ais523, I think CPAN is pretty cool
15:57:24 <ais523> optbot: hi
15:57:24 <optbot> ais523: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_the_UNIX_has_GUI this is some kind of abstract poetry
15:57:32 <tusho> I said that.
15:57:40 <ais523> hmm... I was going to say that that sounds like you
15:57:54 <ais523> let's do optbot guess-the-author
15:57:55 <optbot> ais523: I think I follow.
15:57:58 <tusho> Does the UNIX has GUI? yes there is. Solaris OS is an example of Unix and has a GUI called CDE (common desktop environment). the Open Solaris
15:58:00 <tusho> that is so poetry
15:58:01 <tusho> and ha
15:58:05 <ais523> hmm... don't know
15:58:14 <tusho> optbot: say psox
15:58:14 <optbot> tusho: what?
15:58:17 <tusho> optbot: say psox
15:58:18 <optbot> tusho: are you new here?
15:58:20 <tusho> XD
15:58:36 <ais523> hmm... but there are other Unices with a GUI, not just Solaris
15:58:46 <tusho> it's poetry.
15:59:12 <ais523> in fact probably most of them do nowadays, unless you don't count things like Gnome and KDE as being a GUI that "UNIX has"
15:59:21 <ais523> and ofc there's Mac OS X, Unix with a GUI
15:59:28 <tusho> ais523: http://perldoc.perl.org/Symbol.html
15:59:30 <ais523> even Windows didn't fail the POSIX compliance tests
15:59:31 <tusho> gensym. core perl.
15:59:43 <ais523> use Symbol;#
15:59:47 <ais523> so not core Perl
15:59:52 <tusho> uh
15:59:53 <ais523> but probably distributed with it
15:59:54 <tusho> so it's in a module
15:59:58 <tusho> that's a good thing, ais523
16:00:03 <ais523> tusho: I don't count that as core Perl
16:00:05 <tusho> does every program need gensym? no
16:00:10 <tusho> is it really worthy of core? not really
16:00:13 <ais523> exactly
16:00:16 <ais523> so yes, a good thing
16:00:25 <ais523> so why did you claim it was core Perl?
16:00:26 <tusho> in fact, I'd even go so far as to say I'm not sure it should be bundled
16:00:34 <tusho> since it's probably not all that common
16:00:37 <tusho> ais523: I was using your definition
16:00:41 <tusho> for the sake of argument
16:00:55 <tusho> Symbol::gensym  creates an anonymous glob and returns a reference to it. Such a glob reference can be used as a file or directory handle.
16:00:57 <tusho> that ... doesn't sound right
16:01:03 <ais523> an ...anonymous glob?
16:01:07 <ais523> that's like a nameless name
16:01:15 <ais523> something only Perl could come up with
16:01:28 <tusho> Hmm.
16:01:34 <ais523> it's sort of like a nonexisistent string
16:01:41 <ais523> except it compares different from other nonexistent strings
16:01:43 <tusho> You can hook into the perl "Ok this is being garbage collected" thing, can't you?
16:01:44 <ais523> and can be used as a variable name
16:01:47 <tusho> I can just make Gensym a class.
16:01:50 <ais523> tusho: I think so
16:01:56 <tusho> And have a list of taken gensyms.
16:02:04 <tusho> In fact... I can do simpler than that.
16:02:10 <tusho> The Form can just pass an integer to the field. Duh.
16:02:20 <tusho> Hm, wait.
16:02:23 <tusho> Perl objects have IDs, right?
16:02:25 <tusho> Integers.
16:02:45 <ais523> I think they're pointers
16:02:51 <ais523> which presumably can be converted into integers
16:03:06 <ais523> probably something to do with the B class, which is not something you want to mess around with if you want to stay sane
16:03:08 <fizzie> Haha "are you new here".
16:03:32 <fizzie> optbot: You are one funny bot.
16:03:32 <optbot> fizzie: the model is unsucky in uncommon ways
16:03:39 <tusho> lmao
16:03:44 <tusho> that's correct optbot
16:03:44 <optbot> tusho: it's easy :D
16:03:52 <tusho> that is also correct, optbot was very easy to write
16:03:52 <optbot> tusho: I have designed with concurrency in mind
16:04:01 <tusho> hmm, no optbot. no illusions of grandeur ok :)
16:04:01 <optbot> tusho: but BS = 127, surely?
16:04:09 <tusho> optbot: whut
16:04:10 <optbot> tusho: Ooops
16:04:14 <tusho> optbot: wrong channel?
16:04:14 <optbot> tusho: ~exec execfile('/bot/scripts/bf.py')
16:04:16 <tusho> optbot: er, no
16:04:17 <optbot> tusho: It's human-parsed.
16:04:22 <tusho> optbot: i am not going to parse that
16:04:23 <optbot> tusho: paprika
16:04:27 <tusho> optbot: paprika
16:04:27 <optbot> tusho: and then you'd have MEMSET memaddr
16:04:34 <tusho> optbot: damn, did I?
16:04:34 <optbot> tusho: I'm not on it :0
16:04:40 <fizzie> fungot: Do you know what those guys are talking about?
16:04:40 <tusho> ok
16:04:40 <fungot> fizzie: some people are scary for it
16:04:47 <fizzie> fungot: Yes!
16:04:48 <fungot> fizzie: and btw, i suggest you join osdev and browse to fnord/ fnord" is missing from the fnord) attempts to locate libs on my system.
16:05:05 <ais523> for a moment I thought fungot was trying to give useful advice
16:05:05 <fungot> ais523: tell me, is it normal for you feet to itch the first day you wear new shoes?
16:05:09 <ais523> I missed who wrote it
16:05:22 <ais523> and that fungot sentence almost makes sense, just one typo in it
16:05:23 <fungot> ais523: they are fnord fnord the negative, but... oh well. we'll have to see about that once we figure out what format we're using for the standards ( well, it does matter in that signed integer overflow is undefined behaviour, but what it prints is implementation-defined. it must be " zero-terminated" to explain the wrapping version... or figuring out how to get it working
16:05:37 <fizzie> Yes, and I think the typo was in the original.
16:05:50 <ais523> fizzie: presumably fungot didn't mangle that one at all, then
16:05:51 <fungot> ais523: like sadol :d lol typed it two times wrong! you should be doing it like this!"
16:05:52 <fizzie> With 5-grams, it quite often quotes entire comments.
16:06:03 <ais523> fungot uses 5-grams?
16:06:04 <fungot> ais523: and will be i think i could do it if you're lazy then seeing the errors would speed up your coding fnord length in here would be fnord esoteric:"
16:06:23 <ais523> or does it randomise the number of words to match on?
16:06:27 <tusho> 5-grams is kind of crap
16:06:32 <tusho> try 3-grams or 4-grams for more variety.
16:06:46 <fizzie> The current language model contains all ngrams up to 5-grams, and it uses the longest matching prefix it can find to generate next word.
16:07:03 <ais523> ah, interesting
16:07:13 <fizzie> The one I had before the bot-loop or so was 4-grams. There's certainly more variety, but less good spelling.
16:08:20 <fizzie> I think I can replace it on-the-fly, actually, since it reopens and reads the files every time it needs to generate a sentence.
16:09:32 <fizzie> fungot: Do you feel like using word bigrams now?
16:09:32 <fungot> fizzie: so i'm not work in that we are stored in room change filename to
16:10:14 <fizzie> fungot: At least you certainly sound like you need some tweaking in the head.
16:10:15 <fungot> fizzie: i haven't
16:10:23 <fizzie> fungot: Haven't what?
16:10:24 <fungot> fizzie: when the remainder... i think os
16:10:36 <fizzie> Actually I think it sounds more like a Befunge bot now.
16:11:31 -!- ais523 has quit ("Rebooting").
16:12:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:12:57 -!- puzzlet has joined.
16:16:38 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:24:59 <fizzie> fungot: How's your vocabulary now?
16:25:00 <fungot> fizzie: ( ( tis harder than you think.' as these last words were spoken. mr :) mrs lammle went next, :) draw'd it off with a power that audaciously wanted to control him. it was very gloomy :) prophetic manner until he reached/ further end of/ hall.
16:25:23 <ais523> fizzie: that surely isn't the #esoteric logs...
16:25:25 <fizzie> fungot: Your punctuation desperately needs to be fixed, you know.
16:25:38 <ais523> fungot?
16:25:39 <fungot> ais523: it is strange with how little notice, good, noble fellows, my boy,' returned miss blimber; ( but this chaise, my dear '' laughed steerforth, shaking my head, i suppose, in a voice nearly as full :) round.
16:25:49 <ais523> fizzie: it ignored you
16:26:02 <fizzie> ais523: Yeah, I had around most of Gutenberg for a school project, so I just fed all books by Dickens to it.
16:26:14 <tusho> Dickens used a lot of smilies.
16:26:24 <fizzie> Yes, I'm not sure what's up with that.
16:26:26 <ais523> is it using smilies to match parens?
16:26:33 <fizzie> Probably my punctuation-parsing regexes.
16:26:42 <ais523> and does it have the #esoteric logs in there too?
16:28:28 <fizzie> Nope, not this time. Probably should've mixed them, but I've got a separate logs-to-token-stream script and a Gutenbergy-text-to-token-stream script.
16:28:48 <fizzie> #esoteric logs are more relevant here than Dickens, I think.
16:29:49 <tusho> ais523: LOL LOL LOL
16:30:02 <tusho> #perl are throwing shit on me for not caring about windows support on this web app
16:30:15 <tusho> even though I've told them that it's my personal hobby app, will never go on sale, and I will never run it on windows
16:30:18 <ais523> Windows browsers or Windows webservers?
16:30:24 <tusho> web servers
16:30:30 <tusho> <ology> tusho: Carry on with your one dimensional view of things.
16:30:33 <tusho> LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
16:30:40 <fizzie> fungot: Speak like Darwin, please?
16:30:41 <fungot> fizzie: j., developments :)/ ephemeridae. but enough, and i hope that you will allow me to thank you for your very kind letter.
16:30:47 <tusho> previously he'd said:
16:30:50 <tusho> * ology refrains from explaining the wider universe.
16:31:00 <tusho> This is some wider universe where people are forced to sell their own hobby web app's code.
16:31:04 <tusho> I have not heard of it before.
16:31:11 <ais523> actually, I care about portability a lot more now than I used to
16:31:20 <tusho> It's still utterly ridiculous.
16:31:25 <ais523> after all, I've ended up having to port programs cross-OS before, even my own toy programs
16:31:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:32:49 <fizzie> Why do all these authors use so much smileys? Darwin's even worse. (Obviously there can be no bugs in my fungot code.)
16:32:50 <fungot> fizzie: my dear father, your most troublesome friend, c. darwin. july ', fnord. chron." 1884, page 144, you will find how difficult it is to be seated in such shade, and never failed to discover animals :) new and curious genus :) barnacle, which i have read lately so many hostile facts so confoundedly well.
16:33:17 <ais523> due to moving onto a newer program with a different OS
16:33:17 <ais523> actually, just porting Windows 95 to Windows XP was hard enough
16:33:17 <ais523> which was one of the early things that alerted me that Windows's API  was in fact rubbish
16:33:34 <ais523> [16:33] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 6 seconds.
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16:38:29 <tusho> hi ais523
16:38:45 <ais523> tusho: my client still says you aren't here
16:38:53 <ais523> although you blatantly are because you're in this channel
16:38:58 <ais523> just not connected to Freenode for some reason
16:40:55 <tusho> this form lbrary is slightly (very) crazy.
16:41:00 <tusho> and also very convenient
16:42:03 <ais523> tusho: all Perl libraries tend to be crazy
16:42:06 <ais523> it's in the nature of Perl
16:44:26 <tusho> ais523: this one is based on a continuation server
16:44:28 <tusho> you pass it var-refs
16:44:33 <tusho> and it assigns to them the values of form fields
16:44:42 <tusho> and automatically loops the rendering cycle until it's all valid
16:46:58 <tusho> ais523: you can't "use $a_string"
16:46:59 <tusho> :(
16:47:12 <ais523> probably there's some way to do it
16:47:17 <ais523> why would you want to do that, though?
16:47:39 <tusho> ah, use 'require'
16:47:46 <tusho> ais523: what about pushing to an array ref? $$ref doesn't work...
16:47:50 <tusho> ah wait
16:47:51 <tusho> @$ref?
16:48:00 <tusho> hm
16:48:01 <ais523> yes
16:48:01 <tusho> nope
16:48:06 <tusho>       push @$self->fields, $class->new(@_);
16:48:12 <tusho> Type of arg 1 to push must be array (not subroutine entry) at (blah)
16:48:15 <ais523> try @{$self}->fields
16:48:23 <tusho> Weird.
16:48:53 <tusho> Same error.
16:49:13 <ais523> tusho: (@$self)->fields?
16:49:23 <ais523> ah, @$self->fields()
16:49:27 <tusho> Ah. Needs the ()
16:49:32 <ais523> it must be a subroutine, not an array
16:49:35 <tusho> Same error.
16:49:39 <tusho> And it is a subroutine.
16:49:39 <ais523> ugh
16:49:43 <tusho> $self->fields returns an arrayref.
16:49:52 <ais523> @{$self->fields()} then
16:50:05 <ais523> I didn't understand what the situation was, sorry for the bad advice
16:50:12 <tusho> s'ok :D
16:50:25 <tusho> I do not understand this option (is => r) on attribute (request) at /opt/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Moose/Meta/Attribute.pm line 274
16:50:29 <tusho> wut ;_;
16:50:56 <ais523> no idea
16:50:57 <tusho> ahh
16:50:57 <tusho> ro
16:51:00 <tusho> for read only
16:51:32 <tusho> hmm.
16:51:36 <tusho> $obj->{'foo'} = sub {...}
16:51:40 <tusho> does not seem to make $obj->foo a method.
16:51:58 <ais523> maybe that doesn't work on blessed objects?
16:51:59 <ais523> no idea
16:52:09 <ais523> maybe you have to curse the object first, before it will work, and bless it again afterwards
16:52:23 <tusho> That would kill Moose, I think.
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17:03:48 <fizzie> Uh.
17:04:09 <fizzie> If you do $obj->{'foo'} = sub {...}  you're just putting a coderef in the hash $obj.
17:04:25 <fizzie> You can call that as $obj->{'foo'}->(...); if you like.
17:05:18 <fizzie> If you want $obj->foo() to work, you need to create a 'foo' method in the symbol table of the package the $obj is blessed to.
17:05:47 <tusho> Hmm. I wonder why my package-defined @FOOBAR isn't being exported.
17:05:54 <tusho> That is, I have
17:05:58 <tusho> my @FOOBAR = ...;
17:06:01 <tusho> in a package, and have use'd that page
17:06:04 <tusho> *that package
17:06:09 <ais523> tusho: our, not my?
17:06:11 <tusho> but it is still undef as Package::FOOBAR
17:06:12 <tusho> ah yes ais523
17:07:00 <tusho> Use of uninitialized value in substitution (s///)
17:07:03 <tusho> lol whut D:
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17:13:46 <lament> () () () () () () ()
17:14:57 <lament> chocolate-covered espresso beans!
17:15:15 <tusho> yes
17:15:20 <lament> no
17:15:21 <lament> i lied
17:15:27 <lament> it's just a bunch of parentheses
17:25:26 <tusho> ais523:
17:25:26 <tusho> Use of uninitialized value in substitution (s///)
17:25:28 <tusho> wut dat meen
17:26:06 <ais523> tusho: it means you're trying to do an s/// on an undef
17:26:12 <tusho> ahhh
17:26:14 <ais523> or where an undef is involved in it somehow
17:26:17 <tusho> ...
17:26:20 <tusho> that shouldn't be happening
17:26:22 <ais523> you normally don't want to do that, thus the warning
17:26:33 <tusho> for my $type (@Foo::Form::Field::TYPES) {
17:26:33 <tusho>   my $class_name = 'Foo::Form::Field::' . ucfirst(s/_(.)/uc \$1/eg =~ $type);
17:31:55 <tusho> ais523: wut's wrong there
17:32:50 <ais523> \$1?
17:32:52 <ais523> not just $1?
17:33:00 <tusho> i tried $1
17:33:02 <tusho> and got that error
17:33:05 <tusho> so I thought maybe it was being interpolated
17:33:07 <tusho> before being eval'd
17:33:18 <tusho> same with $1, though
17:33:18 <ais523> no, /e doesn't interpolate
17:33:31 <ais523> the error suggests that $type is undef
17:33:32 <ais523> ah
17:33:37 <tusho> but it's not
17:33:39 <tusho> see the line above
17:33:40 <ais523> you must have an undef inside the array you're looping over
17:33:48 <tusho> our @TYPES = ('text', 'line_input', 'button');
17:34:27 <ais523> hmm
17:34:38 <ais523> not sure then, at this point I'd try to debug by printing $type every iteration
17:35:07 <tusho> Prints nothing.
17:35:17 <ais523> that seems wrong
17:35:22 <ais523> maybe an undef did get in there somehow
17:35:39 <tusho> hmm
17:35:43 <tusho> it seems to print properly
17:36:06 <tusho> yep
17:36:08 <tusho> it prints it all fine
17:36:11 <tusho> :\
17:36:47 <ais523> and no warning for printing an undef?
17:36:52 <tusho> No.
17:36:55 <ais523> I'm confused
17:37:01 <tusho> Make that two of us.
17:37:17 <tusho> Ok.
17:37:20 <tusho> The one it fails on is 'text'.
17:37:28 <tusho> So apparently $type, although it's 'text', is undefined.
17:37:28 <tusho> :P
17:39:17 -!- Hiato has joined.
17:39:28 <tusho> Ok.
17:39:31 <tusho> it happens even if I just do
17:39:39 <tusho> s/_(.)/uc $1/eg =~ 'a';
17:39:46 <tusho> So it's not the second operand.
17:39:47 <tusho> It's the first.
17:41:04 <ais523> but that s/// shouldn't match 'a' at all
17:41:09 <ais523> so how can there be an undef in it?
17:41:20 <tusho> You know, if I knew this stuff I wouldn't ask you.
17:41:28 <ais523> well, I'm confused too
17:41:34 <tusho> Even happens with
17:41:34 <tusho>   s/_(.)/uc $1/ =~ 'a';
17:41:45 <tusho> WTF
17:41:46 <tusho>   s/your mother/my mother/ =~ 'a';
17:41:48 <tusho> even that does it
17:41:55 * tusho 's brain explodes
17:41:57 <fizzie> Uh.. are you sure you don't mean 'a' =~ s///?
17:42:04 <tusho> ...
17:42:07 <ais523> yes, that's a good point
17:42:11 <tusho> fizzie: You could have, like, told me that earlier.
17:42:14 <tusho> Like, an hour ago?
17:42:20 <ais523> also, I just realised the absurdity of s/// on a constant string anyway
17:42:25 <fizzie> That's the way the operation usually goes. Although I'm not sure how much sense does it make to apply it to a constant.
17:42:27 <ais523> which is the =~ 'a'
17:42:37 <tusho> Well, slightly better. Now
17:42:40 <tusho> ucfirst($type =~ s/_(.)/uc $1/eg)
17:42:43 <tusho> evaluates to ''
17:42:55 <ais523> fizzie: my C -> BF compiler was erroring out a few days ago because it kept trying to assign to constants
17:43:07 <fizzie> $foo =~ s///  modifies $foo.
17:43:08 <pikhq> My CS course is going to be laughably easy.
17:43:12 <fizzie> It does not return the modified thing.
17:43:19 <pikhq> It consists of reimplementing the STL, basically.
17:43:22 <fizzie> I think it might return something related to the matching, not sure.
17:43:23 <ais523> fizzie: doesn't it return $foo?
17:43:39 <fizzie> Well, I guess it could return it too. But I think not.
17:44:05 <tusho> Oh, right.
17:44:05 <fizzie> Anyway,  $type =~ s/_(.)/uc $1/eg; $type = ucfirst($type);
17:44:29 <tusho> Okay, now it cant' find a module that's RIGHT THERE
17:44:34 <tusho> Oh, I see.
17:44:43 <fizzie> I think it returns '' if it doesn't match, so that you can use it like if (s/.../.../) { did something substitutiony } .. but not sure about that.
17:44:47 <tusho> Ugh. Where's dirname again?
17:45:00 <tusho> ah, there.
17:45:21 <tusho> ...fgsdfssdfsdffasdsddfsgasd
17:46:43 <fizzie> fungot: You go and help tusho while I'm busy writing this other thing.
17:46:43 <fungot> fizzie: my dear sir, yours very sincerely, ch. darwin.
17:46:54 <tusho> That's a short letter.
17:49:34 <tusho> wtfff
17:49:37 <tusho> of course you can locate it
17:49:38 <tusho> it's right there
17:52:35 <tusho> :\
17:55:05 <tusho> blaaah
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18:01:34 <tusho> ais523: any ideas?
18:01:36 <tusho> it's on the path
18:01:40 <tusho> it's all spelled correctly
18:01:42 <tusho> but the require() fails
18:01:42 <tusho> with
18:01:49 <tusho> Can't locate Blah::Form::Field::Text in @INC
18:02:03 <ais523> you have Blah/Form/Field/Text.pm in @INC?
18:02:26 <tusho> no
18:02:32 <tusho> I have the dir containing the dir Blah in @INC
18:02:42 <ais523> ah, that's what I meant
18:04:16 -!- Corun has joined.
18:05:23 <tusho> so :|
18:05:44 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:05:47 <ais523> not sure
18:05:53 <ais523> got the capitalisation right everywhere?
18:06:02 <ais523> (assuming you aren't on Windows, that is, which is case-insensitive)
18:07:31 <tusho> yep
18:09:14 -!- dogface_ has joined.
18:09:26 <dogface_> I just figured out how to use a piano as a calculator. :-P
18:09:49 <ais523> dogface_: how?
18:10:55 <tusho> ais523: no ideas?
18:11:05 <ais523> tusho: no
18:11:07 <dogface_> Suppose you want to find the least common multiple of 2 and 3. Hold down a second harmonic and sharply play a third harmonic; after you release the third harmonic, you'll hear the second harmonic string vibrating at the sixth harmonic.
18:11:25 <ais523> ah, that's clever
18:11:30 <tusho> :\
18:11:44 <ais523> or you could do it using sostenuto on all the keys except the one you were playing
18:11:59 <ais523> then the sixth harmonic would be the one that you ended up hearing
18:12:10 <ais523> I've done that with octaves before, didn't think of using it for calculation though
18:12:27 <ais523> probably because setting up sostenuto on all the keys but one is a pain
18:12:42 <dogface_> What, hold down every key except the third harmonic, sostenuto them, and play the third harmonic?
18:13:01 <ais523> well, it involves playing both second and third
18:13:06 <ais523> whilst sharply holding down everything else
18:13:10 <dogface_> Oh.
18:13:11 <ais523> s/sharply//
18:13:24 <ais523> then letting go of second and third and seeing what vibrates
18:13:27 <ais523> your way is much better though
18:13:32 * dogface_ nods
18:13:45 * dogface_ tries to calculate 3 * 5
18:14:52 <dogface_> Yep, it works, but only barely.
18:15:27 <dogface_> There's a point where the fifth harmonic hurts your ears and you can barely hear the fifteenth.
18:15:36 * dogface_ does it the other way around: hold down the fifth and play the third
18:15:46 <ais523> but that's calculating 5 * 3
18:15:50 <ais523> it's an entirely different problem!
18:17:02 <dogface_> Hmm. We'll have to find a way to prove commutativity using a piano.
18:18:51 <dogface_> You know, I've once pondered an ancient computer that used sound to compute. I imagine the emperor as having the only one, and it requiring hundreds of slaves to blow into it at once.
18:20:53 <dogface_> After they did that, you'd hear this: "bmm... beep boop bup beep boop beep boop... beee, brr, BEE-dzz-BEE-dzz-BEE! Bsssssssssh..."
18:21:16 <tusho> heh
18:21:49 <tusho> STUPID THING
18:21:50 <tusho> IT'S RIGHT THERE
18:22:36 <tusho> ugh
18:22:37 <tusho> even
18:22:40 <tusho> eval "use $foo" works
18:22:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:23:00 <dogface_> Then the emperor would call in the monks, who would chant, "H T T P colon slash slash..."
18:23:05 <tusho> :(
18:24:26 <tusho> aha.
18:24:27 -!- oklopol has joined.
18:24:27 <tusho> fixed.
18:24:33 <oklopol> tusho did you make lazerfish
18:24:36 <tusho> ais523: what's the dereferencing syntax for strings again
18:24:39 <oklopol> *laser
18:24:39 <tusho> oklopol: no hideous did
18:24:41 <dogface_> It would be really cool to build a computer entirely out of ordinary plastic and water.
18:24:44 <tusho> why?
18:25:04 <oklopol> tusho: tell him it's the ugliest and suckiest game i've ever seen
18:25:08 <ais523> tusho: ${$variable_holding_a_string}
18:25:12 <oklopol> i'm sure that was the intention
18:25:16 <tusho> oklopol: it was made for a "game in an hour" contest, I believe.
18:25:45 <oklopol> oh i see
18:26:12 <tusho> still want me to pass that on?
18:26:13 <tusho> :)
18:26:50 <dogface_> What is laserfish?
18:27:03 <tusho> dogface_: a game.
18:27:14 <tusho> http://hideou.se/games/laserfish.rar
18:27:26 <oerjan> something you really don't want to meet when you are swimming
18:27:34 <tusho> that also
18:28:57 <tusho> http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSPAT35416820080523
18:32:22 <dogface_> Things installed so far: 2. Things to be installed: 1.
18:33:16 -!- Mony has joined.
18:33:45 <oerjan> does "Things to be installed" include "Things installed so far"?  In which case you might be having trouble
18:34:10 <Mony> hi
18:34:13 <dogface_> No.
18:34:22 <dogface_> Thing #3 is installing right now.
18:34:32 <ais523> hi Mony
18:34:44 <dogface_> Thing #3 is required to use Thing #1, and Thing #2 is required to download Thing #3.
18:34:50 <dogface_> Things #1 and #2 have been downloaded.
18:35:07 <oklopol> tusho: no need, i guess it's just a bad game made quickly, then
18:35:10 <dogface_> And installed. Thing #3 is installing right now.
18:35:27 <dogface_> Why is it in .exe format?
18:35:55 <ais523> dogface_: which OS are you on?
18:36:04 <dogface_> Windows.
18:36:14 <ais523> ok, then .exe format is at least plausible for programs
18:36:24 <tusho> ais523: only "at least" plausible? :P
18:36:35 <oerjan> VAX/VMS!
18:36:39 <ais523> it's not much good for anything else...
18:36:50 <olsner> the "exe format" and the .exe file extension are completely different things though
18:37:11 <dogface_> Are .exe format and the exe format completely different things, then?
18:37:49 <dogface_> Also, I can see .exe being useful for other things, like proofs.
18:37:59 <ais523> actually .exe generally refers to the PE format
18:38:05 <ais523> which is the executable format used by DOS
18:38:11 <ais523> or the slightly modified version of it used by Windows
18:38:24 <olsner> yeah, PE was what I was referring to with ".exe format"
18:38:42 * ais523 finds it ironic that the P in PE stands for "portable"
18:38:59 <dogface_> Though I think proofs would be the only non-obvious use of .exe files.
18:39:02 <ais523> when executables are not really portable between processors, generally speaking (or in the case of a Mac more than a finite number of processors)
18:39:02 <olsner> in unix, calling your executable .exe is perfectly plausible, only it will almost certainly *not* be in PE format
18:39:11 <ais523> olsner: yes
18:39:26 <ais523> now, brainfuck is arguably executable rather than source
18:39:33 <ais523> in which case it could be called a truly portable executable
18:39:39 <dogface_> Indeed.
18:39:47 <olsner> PE is portable between different dos and windows versions, I guess
18:39:48 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
18:39:50 <dogface_> Most esoteric languages are executable, though...
18:40:12 <fizzie> Mono (the open source .NET thing) applications are sometimes foo.exe files on Unixy systems too.
18:40:18 <fizzie> It's not the PE executable format, though.
18:41:02 <pikhq> PE has been used for more than DOS and Windows, I thought...
18:41:10 <fizzie> Actually I guess it _is_ a PE variant.
18:41:17 <dogface_> tusho: an unexpected error occurred and the application was terminated. Since you're the vendor, it's your fault.
18:41:20 <fizzie> fis@hactar:~$ file /usr/lib/mono/2.0/gmcs.exe
18:41:20 <fizzie> /usr/lib/mono/2.0/gmcs.exe: PE32 executable for MS Windows (console) Intel 80386 32-bit Mono/.Net assembly
18:41:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | then a == 1 and c == 7.
18:41:46 <pikhq> It's been used by Be.
18:41:49 <ais523> dogface_: that's the Windows version of "Segmentation fault", isn't it
18:41:54 <ais523> Windows always was a lot more wordy
18:41:56 <tusho> dogface_: Suggestion for saying funny things: Don't just state conclusions. You need invalid, but humorous, arguments as to why I am the vendor./
18:41:58 <dogface_> I don't think so.
18:42:03 <tusho> Otherwise it's just mildly annoying.
18:42:10 <olsner> hmm, "Intel 80386 32-bit" sounds peculiar - isn't .net code supposed to be portable?
18:42:10 <dogface_> Oh.
18:42:29 <ais523> olsner: I think you are missing the fundamental point behind Microsoft here
18:42:37 <tusho> olsner: it's compiled to native code, is it not?
18:42:39 <tusho> well
18:42:41 <ais523> their stuff is portable when and only when it suits them
18:42:42 <tusho> it's compiled to a wrappe
18:42:42 <tusho> r
18:42:44 <tusho> which runs the VM
18:42:51 <tusho> ais523: now, don't go MS bashing right now
18:42:54 <tusho> thsi isn't their fault per se
18:43:19 <ais523> why not? Assuming everything is Microsoft's fault until proven otherwise is generally a sound strategy
18:43:22 <fizzie> I'm not sure how Mono/.NET executables are represented in the PE headers.
18:43:24 <ais523> apart from OS crashes
18:43:33 <ais523> which oddly are normally the fault of the driver manufacturers
18:43:45 <olsner> it is pretty much just business common sense behind every 'evil' move by microsoft...
18:43:48 <tusho> ais523: see, that's worse than being a fanboy
18:43:54 <ais523> yes, I know
18:43:59 <ais523> and I was overstating the case somewhat
18:43:59 <tusho> that's considering microsoft guilty until proven innocent
18:44:04 <tusho> because they are the worst company ever
18:44:07 <tusho> and they always do plain evil things
18:44:18 <tusho> it's just a ridiculous, childish position
18:44:22 <ais523> tusho: no, it's assuming them incompetent until proven otherwise
18:44:29 <ais523> which there is a lot more evidence for
18:44:30 <tusho> ... which is a ridiculous, childish position
18:44:34 <ais523> and sort of the opposite of calling them evil
18:44:58 <olsner> I mean, in the capitalist sense, there is no 'evil', only things you make money from doing and things you lose money by doing
18:45:51 <tusho> anyway, microsoft are not this huge, wholly incompetent company
18:45:56 <ais523> and things you make money from now and will get sued for later
18:45:59 <tusho> it's just that where it matters and gets most coverage, they tend to fuck up often.
18:46:00 <ais523> tusho: no, that's the annoying part about it
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18:46:15 <tusho> mostly, microsoft are a good, respectable company
18:46:20 <ais523> if they were completely evil and incompetent you could just raze the place to the ground
18:46:22 <ais523> but often they aren't
18:46:25 <tusho> it's just that certain specific parts always going wrong tarnish their reputation
18:46:27 <ais523> and they produce good things as well as bad things
18:46:48 <lament> it's a gigantic company suffering from mismanagement and lack of direction
18:46:53 <tusho> lament: precisely
18:46:58 <ais523> yes, agreed
18:47:06 <ais523> the mismanagement can be somewhat epic, though
18:47:08 <tusho> they need to totally think themselves over again
18:47:17 <tusho> but their management are so retarded that it'll never happen
18:47:18 <tusho> unless they're fired
18:47:28 <ais523> the problem, I find, is that the company itself tends to come up with evil things none of its employees agree with
18:47:31 <tusho> worth noting is that microsoft is really two companies
18:47:34 <tusho> the regular MS we're talking about
18:47:37 <tusho> and microsoft research
18:47:37 <ais523> sort of it emerges out of the corporate structure
18:47:41 <ais523> well, yes
18:47:45 <tusho> which has haskell and tons of cool stuff and pretty much doesn't do anything wrong
18:47:53 <tusho> well
18:47:54 <ais523> microsoft research just produce useful harmless stuff to help make the rest of Microsoft look better
18:48:00 <tusho> partly because they don't actually do much real
18:48:04 <tusho> ais523: no, their research is interesting
18:48:09 <tusho> but, again, it's hard for them to fuck up
18:48:14 <tusho> because they're not actually doing real concrete things
18:48:26 <ais523> Microsoft have enough money to spend lots of it paying people to do interesting research that isn't evil to make them look good
18:48:33 <ais523> it isn't research really, though, but marketing
18:48:40 <ais523> well, it is research
18:48:45 <tusho> ais523: really? I've seen some good stuff come out of MS research
18:48:50 <ais523> tusho: exactly
18:48:51 <tusho> singularity was quite interesting
18:48:54 <ais523> more good stuff = better marketing
18:48:57 <tusho> some nifty captcha ideas
18:48:59 <tusho> and other stuff I forget
18:49:02 <tusho> oh, and spj works for them
18:49:09 <tusho> ais523: yeah
18:49:13 <fizzie> That 80386 32-bit thing seems to be the "correct" format for portable .NET code, too. This is how it goes here on this 64-bit system (sorry in advance for the floodery):
18:49:17 <ais523> tusho: so does one of the creators of INTERCAL
18:49:18 <fizzie> fis@hactar:~$ cat > hw.cs
18:49:18 <fizzie> public class hw { public static void Main() { System.Console.WriteLine("Hello!"); } }
18:49:21 <fizzie> fis@hactar:~$ gmcs hw.cs
18:49:23 <fizzie> fis@hactar:~$ ./hw.exe
18:49:26 <fizzie> Hello!
18:49:26 <ais523> the other one works for a big company too, maybe IBM but I'm not sure
18:49:28 <tusho> ais523: so does either ken thompson or dennis richie
18:49:29 <fizzie> fis@hactar:~$ file hw.exe
18:49:31 <tusho> i forget which
18:49:31 <fizzie> hw.exe: PE32 executable for MS Windows (console) Intel 80386 32-bit Mono/.Net assembly
18:49:48 <olsner> maybe it's just file not reading it right?
18:49:50 <tusho> but apparently he uses windows on his desktop, with an Inferno (plan 9 derivative) running
18:49:53 <tusho> and edits stuff in acme
18:50:04 <tusho> [inferno can run as a window on windows]
18:50:30 <tusho> ais523: you can't do $$foo when $foo is a string
18:50:34 <tusho> what is the thing you can do again?
18:50:41 <ais523> ${$foo}
18:50:42 <ais523> I think
18:50:53 <ais523> although use strict bans you from doing that
18:50:59 <tusho> well exactly
18:51:01 <ais523> so you'll have to do it in a block marked no strict
18:51:03 <tusho> ah
18:51:15 <fizzie> You can do { no strict 'refs'; ... $$foo ... }
18:52:00 <tusho> Hmm.
18:52:06 <tusho> It's a class name
18:52:08 <tusho> like 'Foo::Bar'
18:52:13 <tusho> but { no strict; $class = $$class_name }
18:52:16 <tusho> makes $class undef o_O
18:52:25 <tusho> (yes, with my $class; outside)
18:53:17 <tusho> Really weird.
18:53:47 <fizzie> '$$foo' would access a $ variable; but there is no $Foo::Bar, I guess?
18:53:59 <tusho> Ah, true.
18:54:01 <tusho> HOWEVER
18:54:03 <tusho> eval($foo) doesn't work either
18:54:20 <fizzie> Well, "Foo::Bar" is not really anything sensible when evaluated.
18:54:25 <fizzie> What do you want to do with the class?
18:54:55 <tusho> Ah. Call it's ->new.
18:54:56 <tusho> I could just do
18:55:02 <tusho> \$class_name->new
18:55:04 <tusho> Right?
18:55:22 <ais523> tusho: \$class_name gives a reference to $class_name
18:55:27 <ais523> so I don't see how that would help
18:55:36 <ais523> $$class_name is more likely to work, but I don't know if it would
18:55:38 <tusho> ais523: Well, I have $class_name and I want a reference to the classes new method.
18:55:42 <tusho> And no, it doesn't.
18:55:59 <ais523> really, you're now into the sort of crazy Perl depths not even I like thinking about
18:56:42 <fizzie> With no strict refs, you might be able to do  &{$classname.'::new'}(foo); to call the method Foo::Bar::new. Maybe. I'm not quite sure what kind of objects function names are.
18:56:54 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:57:07 <tusho> fizzie: Yikes.
18:57:11 <tusho> This shouldn't be really hard.
18:57:17 -!- Mony has joined.
18:57:24 <tusho> ah, wait
18:57:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Success).
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18:58:25 <tusho> Can't use an undefined value as an ARRAY reference at (eval 80) line 3.
18:58:29 <tusho> @{$self->fields} am not work.
18:58:31 <tusho> brb.
18:59:43 <fizzie> Well, $self->fields must then return undef.
19:01:32 <fizzie> But I'm thinking you should really read at least "perldoc perlref" and maybe perltoot/perltooc too. (Those are the reference-like tutorials; there are human-friendly ones at perlreftut and perlboot, but I preferred the more complicated ones, really.)
19:03:54 <fizzie> The references aren't really illogical, just a bit funky.
19:05:28 <fizzie> For example "perldoc perlref" has, under the "Function Templates" heading, a piece of example code which generates many similar functions.
19:06:05 <fizzie> To get the new functions callable as methods, one needs to stick them into the symbol table with the dreaded '*'.
19:06:53 <ais523> oh dear
19:06:59 <ais523> manipulating * is always bad news
19:07:13 <ais523> it's almost as bad as messing with the B class
19:09:26 <fizzie> Well, I'm not sure he wants to do that, but there was earlier some talk about generating similar functions without explicitly declaring them, and you need to do { no strict 'refs'; *$foo = sub { ... } } to get the effect of sub <contents of $foo> { ... }.
19:14:25 <fizzie> As for generating an object of class $foo... assuming the package $foo is 'use'd, you can simply do  my $obj = new $class;  which will use the 'new' method in that class.
19:16:21 <fizzie> fis@hactar:~$ perl -e 'use strict; my $class = "Digest::MD5"; eval "use $class"; my $obj = new $class; use Data::Dumper; print Dumper($obj);'
19:16:25 <fizzie> $VAR1 = bless( do{\(my $o = 13194464)}, 'Digest::MD5' );
19:16:29 <fizzie> With no complaints from strictness, even.
19:18:15 <fizzie> Even $class->new(1,2); seems to work with $class being a string.
19:21:19 <fizzie> So re "this shouldn't be really hard": it isn't.
19:23:24 <tusho> fizzie: Yeah, I got it working fine
19:23:26 <tusho> :P
19:23:33 <tusho> and yeah, I should probably properly learn perl
19:23:38 <tusho> but generally tutorials don't stick in mind for me
19:23:41 <ais523> tusho: that's impossible
19:23:42 <tusho> using the language a lot does
19:23:48 <ais523> it's not the sort of lang that people learn all at once
19:23:50 <tusho> ais523: what - properly learning perl?
19:23:50 <tusho> :P
19:23:53 <ais523> you learn the bits of it you need
19:23:56 <tusho> yes, exactly
19:24:02 <tusho> i'm kind of doing that except this irc room is close
19:24:07 <tusho> so i'm just asking here instead of reading docs :D
19:24:08 <ais523> Perl is effectively infinitely large
19:24:10 <tusho> although I am doing that too
19:24:19 <tusho> but it's hard to google punctuation
19:25:32 -!- oerjan has quit ("bus").
19:28:23 <tusho> Hmm.
19:28:46 <fizzie> fungot: Can you do Perl, by the way?
19:28:47 <fungot> fizzie: it would be a girl x_x. i am using kernel code? foo. a
19:28:54 <tusho> fizzie: Your function template stuff doesn't seem to work for objects.
19:29:06 <tusho> *{$self->$type} = sub { ... }; still doesn't let you do $self->$type()
19:29:09 <ais523> fizzie: which database is fungot using now?
19:29:10 <fungot> ais523: add it must get a stub template type)?' ( the unintuitive ooe problems., '
19:29:15 <tusho> And yes, I'm reading the function templates thing.
19:29:24 <tusho> ais523: #esoteric, obviously
19:29:25 <fizzie> ais523: My personal logs for #esoteric and #scheme on Freenode.
19:29:27 <ais523> tusho: try throwing an ampersand in there somewhere, it often helps in such cases
19:29:30 <ais523> no idea where, though
19:29:54 <ais523> fizzie: does that mean if I say fungot often enough, it'll tell me your auth password?
19:29:54 <fungot> ais523: and that until i bet you
19:30:01 <fizzie> tusho: If you are running the code in the correct package, you want just *{$type} = sub { ... }
19:30:06 <tusho> Ah, right.
19:30:36 <fizzie> tusho: Since that'll add the function "$type" in the current package, and then it can be called via <blessed reference>-><contents of $type>()
19:30:47 <tusho> Ah, so my eval solution worked, I just had a stupid bug.
19:30:55 <tusho> But I'll keep with the * solution, it seems cleaner than eval.
19:31:23 <fizzie> I think you can stick the function inside a package from the outside, too, by doing *{"Foo::Bar::$type"} = sub { ... } but that might be a bit impolite.
19:32:09 <fizzie> ais523: The logs should only contain messages said on channel, so there shouldn't be anything secret there. I hope.
19:32:19 <ais523> fizzie: ah
19:32:20 <fizzie> fungot: Please don't reveal any of my secrets to those guys.
19:32:20 <fungot> fizzie: because it's cheaper than any other way to computer, fnord of the high
19:32:33 <fizzie> Heh, "fnord of the high".
19:32:35 <tusho> Hmm.
19:32:36 <ais523> "Fnord of the High" would be a great title
19:32:43 <tusho> Now why would this exact code work in one class and not in another.
19:32:47 <tusho> ais523: Think I'll nab that.
19:32:56 <tusho> Ha, I was first, dibs. :D
19:33:07 <ais523> tusho: but it addressed fizzie as Fnord of the High, not you
19:33:21 <tusho> Who said I meant as a title given to a person? :P
19:33:27 <tusho> Although admittedly that's the context it used it in.
19:33:35 <tusho> fungot: What is your gender?
19:33:36 <ais523> I was going by fungot's context
19:33:37 <fungot> tusho: negative percentage of it explicitly. adding generics, is subjective and besides chicken... rusty though, no clue, i can be that just boggling. i
19:33:37 <fungot> ais523: got the
19:33:45 <tusho> Wow.
19:33:50 <tusho> He has negative percent of a gender.
19:33:56 <tusho> Err.
19:33:57 <tusho> It
19:34:00 <tusho> "Ti"?
19:34:07 <tusho> Maybe you should delete two characters.
19:34:07 <ais523> but fungot's knowledge of the exact proportion is rusty; it has no clue
19:34:09 <fungot> ais523: support mini-funge off my screen name field of syntax-case? is this breaks out and/ mem use those patents as " 13? :p)
19:34:17 <tusho> as negative percent of a gender.
19:35:13 <Deewiant> tusho: I rather like this response I once got
19:35:15 <Deewiant> Quote 66: <Deewiant> ddd: what is your gender? <ddd> Deewiant: Arrays!
19:35:22 <tusho> Deewiant: Brilliant.
19:35:55 <ais523> is ddd a markov bot too?
19:36:01 <ais523> in addition to being a GUI for gdb?
19:37:20 <tusho> Attribute (request) does not pass the type constraint because: Validation failed for 'Continuity::Request' failed with value Continuity::RequestHolder=HASH(0x1a162f4) at /opt/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/Moose/Meta/Attribute.pm line 396
19:37:26 <tusho> Stupid internals. :D
19:38:24 <tusho> Hmm.
19:38:25 <tusho> Wut thu.
19:38:30 <tusho> With @{$self->fields},
19:38:35 <tusho> it turns into
19:38:38 <tusho> [[a,b,c,...]]
19:38:52 <tusho> Why would it all go into the first element which is suddenly an arrayref?
19:38:53 <tusho> That makes NO SENSE
19:39:12 <ais523> it's programming's version of the Chewbacca Defence
19:39:28 <tusho> ah, i see
19:39:37 <tusho> or is it more "Stop abusing me! Or I'll do this!"?
19:40:39 <fizzie> Might be related to perl's reference-autovivification. Although I don't really see how.
19:42:34 <fizzie> Is this $self->fields some Moose thing, btw?
19:42:40 <tusho> Oh, duh.
19:42:41 <tusho> Uh, wait.
19:42:42 <tusho> Hm.
19:42:49 <tusho> fizzie: No, it's just a property.
19:42:56 <tusho> Albeit defined with Moose, but that's unrelated.
19:42:59 <tusho> So, it's just a method.
19:43:11 <fizzie> Yes, yes, but does it actually return an arrayref?
19:43:23 <tusho> Well, it should, I declared that it isa ArrayRef.
19:43:26 <tusho> And made the default [].
19:43:45 <tusho> oh, duh
19:43:51 <tusho> I need to do @{$self->fields} again for looping
19:43:54 <tusho> I was trying to loop over $self->fields
19:44:00 <tusho> so that's an array with one element, an arrayref
19:44:03 <tusho> I'm stoopid.
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19:46:52 <tusho> Hmm. how can it not find that method if it's right there?
19:46:57 <tusho> Silly wabbit.
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19:47:24 -!- Corun has joined.
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19:49:54 <tusho> Now come on Perl.
19:49:58 <tusho> I want to be friends with you.
19:50:01 <tusho> So don't deny it.
19:50:01 <fizzie> I need some sort of a timer for the "only four replies and then ignore" thing. Otherwise I can't hold any real discussions with fungot.
19:50:02 <fungot> fizzie: even
19:50:03 <tusho> That method is right there.
19:50:18 <tusho> ^echo optbot
19:50:18 <optbot> tusho: and use odd indentation styles
19:50:19 <fungot> optbot optbot
19:50:19 <optbot> fungot: Ternary.ToTernary(a);
19:50:20 <fungot> optbot: neither will resume downloads and i
19:50:20 <optbot> fungot: you can output a number
19:50:21 <fungot> optbot: mmm) calls to have
19:50:21 <optbot> fungot: I have a friend who's a pirate. I showed him that keyboard - he complained that it didn't look very ergonomic, but the easy-to-find pirate-keys were a big plus
19:50:23 <fungot> optbot: jah only has access to avoid
19:50:23 <ais523> hi fungot
19:50:23 <optbot> fungot: Slashdot is serious advertisement is what it is.
19:50:24 <fungot> ais523: ( x fnord on level ( tree-walker ( 1)
19:50:24 <fungot> optbot: probably the text)
19:50:24 <optbot> fungot: I fail to see the word in the index.
19:50:25 <fungot> optbot: is slower than the example i have a la smalltalk work as a fold into
19:50:25 <optbot> fungot: <CTCP>ACTION tests
19:50:27 <fungot> optbot: i just clarifies a value at http://sisc.sourceforge.net/ 2621
19:50:27 <optbot> fungot: blame reddit.
19:50:28 <fungot> optbot: excellent translation
19:50:28 <optbot> fungot: trace it through on paper if you need to
19:50:38 <tusho> instant conversation maker.
19:50:41 <tusho> just add ^echo.
19:50:44 <ais523> tusho: you could just get someone else to say hi to fungot now and again
19:50:44 <fungot> ais523: ( display
19:50:50 <fizzie> Oh right.
19:50:55 <tusho> fizzie: ?
19:51:01 <fizzie> And after speaking to optbot, fungot is then ready to talk to me too.
19:51:02 <optbot> fizzie: that's what i tested it with
19:51:02 <fungot> fizzie: ( scheme-report-environment: tell pitecus.
19:51:14 <tusho> Clever.
19:51:27 <tusho> Hmm.
19:51:48 <tusho> ^echo optbot: Please say something about fungot to double this whole craziness.
19:51:48 <optbot> tusho: :P
19:51:49 <fungot> optbot: Please say something about fungot to double this whole craziness. optbot: Please say something about fungot to double this whole craziness.
19:51:49 <optbot> fungot: it only searches all the other expression names
19:51:50 <fungot> optbot: bull fnord that vim
19:51:51 <optbot> fungot: I'm not sure we're finally going to use Wiki!
19:51:52 <fungot> optbot: ' funge-108 doesn't have fnord/ bewulf/ fnord' '
19:51:52 <optbot> fungot: http://xkcd.com/437/
19:51:53 <fungot> optbot: hey, i don't hang of quack.) with people get rid of the middle there,
19:51:53 <optbot> fungot: It was in Goog'e's search results
19:51:54 <fungot> optbot: an expression applied to any errors. e.g. it take a recursive
19:51:55 <optbot> fungot: were you involved in that "provably goes into an infinite loop" idea
19:52:08 <tusho> hey, i don't hang of quack.
19:54:21 <tusho> Okay, Perl?
19:54:25 <tusho> This isn't fuunny.
19:54:27 <tusho> *funny
19:54:28 <tusho> :(
19:54:33 <tusho> That method is RIGHT THERE.
19:54:35 <tusho> I am looking at it.
19:54:36 <tusho> With my eyes!
19:57:45 <fizzie> Have you considered the option that you, yourself, are delusional?
19:57:57 <tusho> Yes.
19:58:00 <tusho> :P
19:58:20 <fizzie> optbot, fungot: Does tusho seem delusional to you?
19:58:20 <optbot> fizzie: but they change what the k refers to
19:58:22 <fungot> fizzie: you can you can't improve my parents in a *perfect* esoteric ingredients to
19:58:45 <fizzie> fungot: Wait, your parents? Who are they?
19:58:46 <fungot> fizzie: it is fucking tried to just use emacs modes for when it's supposed to implement it more complex standard output that has an equivalent features like
19:58:59 <fizzie> fungot: Hey, watch the language!
19:58:59 <fungot> fizzie: so allows ascii-char 9 at
20:03:28 <tusho> Okay, Perl.
20:03:30 <tusho> I will shoot you in the head,
20:03:37 <tusho> if you do not stop fscking me around.
20:03:38 <tusho> Thanks.
20:04:21 <tusho> Do you hear me Perl?!
20:04:27 <tusho> I will MURDER YOU
20:06:27 <tusho> ...
20:07:03 <tusho> :|
20:09:35 <oklopol> i hate.
20:09:52 <fizzie> What do you hate?
20:09:58 <tusho> perl.
20:10:19 <fizzie> I've got a nifty piece of functional Perl stored away somewhere.
20:10:23 <oklopol> i don't hate specifically
20:10:27 <oklopol> i just hate
20:11:11 <fizzie> print &{&{sub { my $f = shift; return &$f($f); }}(sub { my $f = shift; return sub { my $n = shift; return 1 if $n < 2; return &{&$f($f)}($n-1) + &{&$f($f)}($n-2); }; })}(8), "\n";
20:11:15 <fizzie> It's the Fibonacci number.
20:11:24 <oklopol> we're not blind
20:11:40 <tusho> fizzie: Use telepathy to tell me why my thing doesn't work.
20:11:53 <tusho> I'll only know that you know for sure if yout ell me telepathcailyl.
20:11:56 <fizzie> I'll use telepathy to BEND YOUR SPOONS mwahah.
20:11:56 <tusho> It proves your magic.
20:12:03 <tusho> Uri?
20:12:04 <tusho> Is that you?
20:12:20 <ais523> optbot: optbot!
20:12:20 <optbot> ais523: it loses something when it's typed
20:12:24 <ais523> optbot!
20:12:24 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | that's because nothing in bf is trivial.
20:12:27 <tusho> ^echo optbot!
20:12:27 <optbot> tusho: what does it say there?
20:12:28 <fungot> optbot! optbot!
20:12:28 <optbot> fungot: ...
20:12:29 <fungot> optbot: i need a factor is
20:12:29 <optbot> fungot: correct
20:12:30 <fungot> optbot: control, not going through the file extension for oses which can
20:12:30 <optbot> fungot: His spec.
20:12:31 <fungot> optbot: it a couple
20:12:31 <optbot> fungot: If you are going to re-invent the wheel you should at least make it round
20:12:32 <fungot> optbot: or i refer to read as a truly have a
20:12:32 <optbot> fungot: ok
20:12:41 <tusho> ^rev !tobtpo
20:12:42 <fungot> optbot!
20:12:42 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Hi all. This client is written in Brainfuck (albeit written with a generator), believe it or not. It uses PSOX. You can get information about PSOX at http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX ..
20:12:45 <ais523> that was short and boring
20:12:47 <tusho> hahahaha
20:12:47 <tusho> win
20:12:56 <ais523> ^echo optbot!
20:12:56 <optbot> ais523: And make functions iterable...
20:12:56 <fungot> optbot! optbot!
20:12:57 <optbot> fungot: oh
20:13:09 <ais523> fungot: reset timer
20:13:10 <fungot> ais523: i try to display/ fnord), type `!hangman guess :) it's easy
20:13:16 <ais523> ^echo oprbot
20:13:17 <fungot> oprbot oprbot
20:13:18 <ais523> ^echo optbot
20:13:18 <optbot> ais523: !cat Mmm. Babiers.
20:13:19 <fungot> optbot optbot
20:13:19 <optbot> fungot: !glass {M[m(_a)O!"Hello World!"o.]}
20:13:20 <fungot> optbot: come over 55 replacement yet. as some people
20:13:20 <optbot> fungot: You may read, but do not comment.
20:13:21 <fungot> optbot: stop her. ,x... well i'll have
20:13:21 <optbot> fungot: refer to the value under that, Var's value after the statement. Var can thus only be popped once in a statement.
20:13:22 <fungot> optbot: my eyes
20:13:22 <optbot> fungot: for the last 6 hours i've been planning to open family guy
20:13:24 <fungot> optbot: how to privileged users, that a lot. " rasen versus legacy c++ anymore
20:13:25 <optbot> fungot: http://esolangs.org/wiki works here.
20:13:33 * ais523 wonders which generator Sgeo used
20:13:38 <tusho> ais523: he wrote it.
20:13:41 <tusho> it basically spat out +s.
20:13:44 <ais523> ah, ok
20:13:54 <tusho> But, er, Sgeo didn't really know Brainfuck.
20:13:57 <tusho> All that much
20:14:00 <fizzie> Maybe I should put some sort of anti-optbot thing there. Oh well, you're bound to get bored.
20:14:00 <optbot> fizzie: on stack
20:14:03 <pikhq> ...
20:14:04 <ais523> gcc-bf will output annotated BF
20:14:07 <tusho> pikhq: Hi.
20:14:08 <ais523> the comments don't do anything
20:14:13 <ais523> but compilers can use them to optimise
20:14:15 <tusho> pikhq: Meet our two nonsense bots.
20:14:20 <fizzie> optbot: What's on stack?
20:14:21 <optbot> fizzie: Its been used in legitimate research. PhDs have been earned.
20:14:30 <pikhq> /ignore optbot
20:14:31 <optbot> pikhq: I thought W meant War.
20:14:42 <tusho> pikhq: Have fun.
20:14:44 <pikhq> Gleeful, gleeful.
20:14:45 <fizzie> That's them fighting words there!
20:15:28 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!optbot
20:15:29 <optbot> ais523: what was amazing about the fibo?
20:15:29 <fungot> optbot
20:15:29 <optbot> fungot: if it was fun you wouldn't need to force yourself into it
20:15:45 <ais523> fungot: reset
20:15:46 <fungot> ais523: its level distinction. i like systems
20:15:47 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!optbot
20:15:47 <optbot> ais523: that's when the type of value a function returns depends on the value it takes.
20:15:48 <fungot> optbot
20:15:48 <optbot> fungot: I meant the whole recognizing nesting thing.
20:15:49 <fungot> optbot: was easier in here? i might be mistaken about
20:15:49 <optbot> fungot: should it be (x,y,r g or b)
20:15:50 <fungot> optbot: the opposite. t? clauses with that if unquote 1 program that
20:15:50 <optbot> fungot: and it optimizes some other special things
20:15:51 <fungot> optbot: go, yet
20:15:51 <optbot> fungot: How... useful.
20:15:52 <fungot> optbot: i think its been on how much nothing, i cannot express it before
20:15:52 <optbot> fungot: now when you make that explicit somehow
20:15:59 <ais523> ok, I'll stop indirect spamming now
20:16:05 <fizzie> ... it's a bit too easy to thwart that anti-loop thing.
20:16:12 <ais523> fizzie: no, that's good
20:16:26 <ais523> not having infinite loops is good
20:16:37 <ais523> being able to do generate a lot of nonsense quickly is also good
20:17:52 <fizzie> Well, that's one way to boost the channel activity rating at ircbrowse.com.
20:18:08 <tusho> ircbrowse is dead
20:18:14 <oklopol> your mother is dead
20:18:17 <tusho> hmm
20:18:18 <tusho> it's back
20:18:21 <ais523> great
20:18:23 <tusho> but useless
20:18:26 <tusho> it's missed too much of us
20:18:27 <ais523> missing logs for the time when clog wasn't here?
20:18:41 <ais523> s/clog/cmeme/
20:18:44 <ais523> obviously
20:18:49 <ais523> by the way, hi clog, hi cmeme
20:18:51 <tusho> http://ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric Hm.
20:18:54 <ais523> and thanks for all the work you do
20:19:30 <tusho> clog, cmeme: botte! be afraid!
20:20:34 <Deewiant> optbot: botte!
20:20:35 <optbot> Deewiant: I found the Ubuntu installation at least an order of magnitude easier than the XP installation.
20:20:38 <pikhq> Sweet; I'm now ignoring optbot *and* all replies to optbot.
20:20:38 <optbot> pikhq: The reason why the code does nothing is that bar=0. while(bar) {}, therefore, is just skipped over.
20:20:46 <pikhq> Could someone test that for me?
20:20:55 <Deewiant> pikhq: I just did :-)
20:21:02 <pikhq> Sweet.
20:21:02 <ais523> pikhq: you just did too
20:21:09 <Deewiant> pikhq: plus, optbot of course said something to you when you mentioned the name
20:21:09 <optbot> Deewiant: :|
20:21:13 <pikhq> ais523: The replies to him, of course.
20:21:35 <ais523> pikhq: are you going to ignore fungot too?
20:21:35 <fungot> ais523: there's a code takes
20:21:36 <fizzie> You'd better ignore fungot too, the nonsense is not any better in that direction.
20:21:36 <fungot> fizzie: sure.
20:21:46 <tusho> All replies to optbot?
20:21:46 <optbot> tusho: stupid kbd
20:21:46 <pikhq> ais523: No, just fungot talking to optbot.
20:21:47 <optbot> pikhq: yes
20:21:48 <fungot> pikhq: is a string as a lurker with utf-8 rox... i'm done " scheme48 ' bitstream vera sans data
20:21:54 <tusho> Optbot has been the source of most discussion recently.
20:21:54 <optbot> tusho: haha
20:21:56 <pikhq> tusho: It's an irssi feature.
20:22:01 <tusho> Well, lose out if you wish.
20:22:04 <pikhq> /ignore -replies foo
20:22:07 <tusho> It's not as if you talk in here or anything.
20:22:12 <tusho> (Much.)
20:22:26 <pikhq> Oh, fungot is *also* giing out gibberish?
20:22:27 <fungot> pikhq: which means one line!'
20:22:29 <pikhq> tusho: Busy.
20:22:34 <tusho> pikhq: Yes. It is.
20:22:35 <pikhq> Ignoring fungot.
20:22:37 <fungot> pikhq: wait, extreme, not that up your function calls. we decide what i'm currently stands there,
20:22:39 <tusho> Wonderful.
20:22:43 <pikhq> Glee!
20:22:58 <ais523> pikhq: how come you didn't notice it was spouting gibberish?
20:23:03 <tusho> pikhq: If I continue talking, will you count that as gibberish and ignore me and people replying to me too?
20:23:10 <pikhq> ais523: I've not been paying attention much.
20:23:14 <pikhq> tusho: No.
20:23:18 <tusho> Hey, maybe if we get EgoBot to run a gibberish-generating program from a URI you'll ignore that too.
20:23:21 <ais523> tusho: I'm now in here extreme code nothing bar fnord
20:23:26 <pikhq> tusho: Maybe.
20:23:34 <tusho> The tangled web of missing out on the already slow #esoteric!
20:23:44 <tusho> Because, you know. You're forced to read every message said here.
20:23:46 <ais523> tusho: don't deride em for it
20:23:51 <tusho> ais523: i think it's very silly
20:23:54 <ais523> /ignore is an important personal choice
20:24:03 <fizzie> Quite a lot of names in the nick list compared to the ones that actually appear in the discussion; discuss.
20:24:18 <ais523> fizzie: #esoteric seems to get a lot of lurkers
20:24:25 <dogface_> [INFO] Currently ignoring [danfrederiksen!*@*].
20:24:31 <dogface_> Is my ignore list too short?
20:24:33 <ais523> some people there I never remember speaking
20:24:42 <pikhq> It's been a busy handful of months; of course I'm mostly lurking. ;p
20:24:57 <fizzie> Yes, but is there something wrong in the people who do talk that causes the non-talking people to... well, not talk?
20:25:01 <pikhq> I've got an ignore list of 26 lines. :D
20:25:05 <tusho> fizzie: No.
20:25:07 <pikhq> fizzie: Yes.
20:25:10 <tusho> People just join channels and never talk.
20:25:14 <tusho> It's just how IRC is.
20:25:55 <fizzie> Of course I shouldn't talk (pun!) since I have a feeling I spent a long long long amount of time idling here at some point.
20:26:27 -!- Hiato has joined.
20:26:29 <pikhq> I do have to wonder why cherez never talks, though.
20:26:47 <tusho> fizzie: You did, yeah.
20:26:56 * pikhq will prod him into talking once cherez is back from class.
20:27:56 <pikhq> (cherez and I are at the same college)
20:29:38 <tusho> so.
20:29:39 <tusho> perl.
20:29:44 <tusho> this class has a method.
20:29:46 <tusho> you are insisting it doesn't.
20:29:51 <tusho> i will kill you if you lie again.
20:31:03 <oklopol> pikhq: what are you studying
20:31:24 <tusho> oklopol: studying.
20:31:35 <pikhq> Computer science & applied mathematics.
20:32:13 <oklopol> tusho: you can supply a better term if you like
20:32:41 <tusho> oklopol: he's studying studying
20:32:58 <oklopol> that would actually be pretty cool
20:33:10 <oklopol> memorization techniques, fast reading, and all that
20:33:36 <pikhq> That's something quite a few studets could use.
20:34:02 <oklopol> well unless it's the major, it might be a practical idea
20:34:44 <dogface_> I want to be at the same college at someone.
20:34:57 <tusho> no.w
20:35:06 <tusho> whyy
20:35:20 <oklopol> dogface_: come to turku
20:35:24 <oklopol> we can have tea and shti
20:35:26 <oklopol> *shit
20:36:18 <dogface_> Turku?
20:36:30 <oklopol> yes, it's the oklotown
20:36:42 * dogface_ suddenly reads about schooling in Britain
20:36:50 <pikhq> Go to Purdue; be with Gregor. :p
20:36:59 <oklopol> meh, he's such a nerd
20:37:03 <oklopol> i'm a cool guy
20:37:32 <pikhq> Lies.
20:37:43 <pikhq> You know Brainfuck; you are therefore the epitome of nerdiness.
20:37:46 <oklopol> i'm totally lying, and GregorR has hats, so he is, by the definition of cool, much cooler than me.
20:37:58 * pikhq nods
20:38:03 <tusho> PERL
20:38:06 <tusho> I AM GOING TO KILL YOU
20:38:07 <tusho> STAB
20:38:07 <tusho> STAB
20:38:07 <tusho> STBA
20:38:09 <tusho> DIE
20:38:13 <fizzie> I have a slight hunch GregorR also knows Brainfuck.
20:38:18 <tusho> DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
20:38:20 <pikhq> True.
20:38:32 <oklopol> fizzie: yes, but he has hats, aren't you listening
20:38:33 <ais523> fizzie: I'm writing a C to Brainfuck compiler, which is helping me to learn Brainfuck somewhat
20:38:43 <ais523> I even came up with a reasonably concise way to compare two numbers
20:38:54 <tusho> ais523
20:38:56 <tusho> why is this happening
20:38:57 <tusho> :<
20:39:02 <ais523> how should I know?
20:39:09 <tusho> Magic
20:39:16 <fizzie> ais523: He thinks all Perl people are telepathic.
20:39:27 <tusho> they are
20:39:27 <tusho> hm
20:39:27 <tusho> okay
20:39:33 <tusho> my package is never being loaded
20:39:55 <fizzie> Your "package".
20:40:02 <tusho> El oh el.
20:40:16 <pikhq> ais523: Just work on C2BF.
20:40:31 <pikhq> It's already working. Just not done. ;)
20:40:37 <dogface_> So there's Reception Class, then Years 1-6, then secondary school, then university, is it?
20:40:42 <ais523> pikhq: does it handle all of C?
20:40:46 <ais523> mine's a backend to gcc
20:40:49 <tusho> pikhq: C2BF is hideously underpowered
20:40:50 <tusho> undeveloped
20:40:51 <tusho> and incomplete
20:40:55 <tusho> a gcc backend is a lot better idea
20:40:56 <ais523> which causes it to compile into Brainfuck rather than executable
20:41:07 <tusho> esp. because you could theoretically compile any program provided it doesn't use fancy devices
20:41:20 <ais523> I've had to drop support for some gcc features
20:41:23 <tusho> dogface_: Kind of.
20:41:25 <ais523> but luckily none of them are standard C
20:41:27 <tusho> We have a 3-tier system now.
20:41:34 <tusho> Primary school, middle school, high school
20:41:37 <ais523> maybe some time I'll implement trampolines in the byte-code-compiled version
20:41:44 <tusho> then university, etc
20:41:46 <pikhq> ais523: It doesn't.
20:41:52 <pikhq> Wait, you're making a GCC backend?
20:41:55 <pikhq> I fucking love you now.
20:41:57 <ais523> yes, I am
20:42:02 * pikhq bows before ais523.
20:42:04 <ais523> I even managed to compile a short test program
20:42:17 <ais523> not all the way to Brainfuck
20:42:22 <tusho> optbot: what do you think about pikhq's love of ais523? (Note: He won't see this, so it's OK to speak your mind)
20:42:23 <optbot> tusho: :D
20:42:23 <ais523> I invented a language called ABI to compile to
20:42:42 <ais523> which compiles to Brainfuck, although I haven't written the ABI->Brainfuck compiler yet
20:42:50 <oklopol> pikhq is such a poo poo head, right, optbot ?
20:42:50 <optbot> oklopol: okay
20:43:03 <pikhq> oklopol: I can still see that.
20:43:03 <oklopol> :)
20:43:10 <oklopol> :O
20:43:19 <tusho> optbot: oklopol needs to learn that you haev to prefix it with your name, and then a colon or comma, right?
20:43:19 <optbot> tusho: I got to make a game :S
20:43:20 * oklopol is so embarrassed
20:43:26 <tusho> optbot: Silly oklopol.
20:43:27 <optbot> tusho: ok
20:43:33 <pikhq> And I can read the logs. ;p
20:43:41 <oklopol> :<
20:43:54 <oklopol> pikhq: do you still like me?
20:44:02 <oklopol> optbot: what kinda gam?
20:44:02 <optbot> oklopol: are you aware of any nice/graphical scheme's for pre-X Mac OS's?
20:44:04 <oklopol> *game
20:44:18 <oklopol> optbot: not really, is it 3d or 2d or what?
20:44:18 <optbot> oklopol: So how should I define that in Target?
20:44:20 <tusho> optbot: It's ok, pikhq will only be upset when he reads the logs.
20:44:20 <optbot> tusho: No; my terminal doesn't do Unicode.
20:44:23 <tusho> optbot: Wut
20:44:23 <optbot> tusho: I AM A STUPID IDIOT!!!
20:44:27 <tusho> optbot: okay
20:44:27 <oklopol> :D
20:44:27 <optbot> tusho: A 16KB stack, eh?
20:44:35 <ais523> <optbot> tusho: I AM A STUPID IDIOT!!!
20:44:36 <optbot> ais523: hi
20:44:36 * oklopol is laughing his ass off
20:44:39 <fizzie> ais523: I guess you were already aware, but there are two "assembler-like languages that convert to brainfuck" at http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/utils/ -- bfa and the one in bfcomp.
20:44:42 <tusho> ais523: clearly an asiekerka
20:44:54 <tusho> he talks about how he's an idiot like that in all caps with lots of !s all the time
20:44:56 <tusho> weird guy emotionally
20:45:06 <ais523> fizzie: possibly, but I would design my own anyway, it needs to act like a processor for gcc to understand how it operates
20:45:09 <tusho> "No i disagree" "<some arguments about why perhaps you shouldn't>" "Yeah. And I'm an idiot!"
20:45:17 <ais523> so it simulates a software stack, and main memory, and frame pointers, and so on
20:48:27 <tusho> PERL
20:48:29 <tusho> FEEL MY WRATH
20:49:50 <tusho> :
20:49:50 <tusho> |
20:50:18 <pikhq> ais523: There's also PEBBLE. ;p
20:50:22 <tusho> Or at least tell me why you won't run a package even though I require/use it.
20:50:27 <tusho> Aha.
20:50:29 <tusho> No final '1;'
20:50:31 <tusho> Bastard.
20:50:34 <pikhq> Oh.
20:50:39 <pikhq> Well, that won't work well.
20:50:49 <pikhq> However: ais523, that is very bad-ass.
20:50:56 <ais523> pikhq: ABI reminds me of PEBBLE a bit, but not all that much
20:51:00 <ais523> mostly it reminds me of asm
20:51:05 <ais523> which of course from gcc's point of view it is
20:51:19 <tusho> Well shucks.
20:51:22 <tusho> I thought I haddi.
20:51:26 <tusho> But no.
20:51:29 <tusho> It just won't run the package.
20:51:31 <pikhq> Wasn't there an actual assembler that assembled into Brainfuck?
20:51:37 <ais523> quite possibly
20:51:55 <pikhq> IIRC, it self-hosted.
20:51:55 <ais523> but the linking has to be done before the assembling for the BF program
20:52:00 <ais523> rather than the other way round
20:52:05 <pikhq> Ah.
20:52:15 <ais523> and it would be so great to get gcc to self-host, although somehow I think that's unlikely
20:53:00 <pikhq> That would be amazing.
20:55:27 <tusho> dfdlfgdfgsad.
20:55:49 <fizzie> ^rot13 nqqrq guvf
20:55:50 <fungot> added this
20:55:54 <fizzie> ^show rot13
20:55:55 -!- fungot has quit (Excess Flood).
20:55:58 <oklopol> :D
20:55:59 <fizzie> ...
20:56:10 <fizzie> No flood-protection, and it's a long program. Do the math. :p
20:56:19 <Mony> lol
20:56:25 <fizzie> Well, that's a useful "kill fungot" command for you.
20:56:51 -!- fungot has joined.
20:57:46 <tusho> ^show your insidse
20:57:51 <tusho> ^show your insides
20:58:07 <fizzie> Whoa, there's still a bug in ^show <something undefined>.
20:58:08 <oklopol> ^show titties
20:58:15 <fizzie> Your latter command was corruptemated.
20:58:27 <fizzie> RAW >>> :tusho!n=tusho@91.105.79.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show your insidse <<<
20:58:27 <fizzie> RAW >>> 2�xH�19=A�}F�G.10�S�9K1U0�P�f-�ҵ�������յ�g��֟(��ur insidse <<<
20:58:36 <tusho> Brilliant.
20:58:46 <fizzie> Must remember to fix that at some point.
21:00:10 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
21:00:52 <tusho> so.
21:02:18 <tusho> <fizzie>optbot: BF into what? NURRR so confused.06:59:09
21:02:18 <optbot> tusho: I have one voicebox.
21:02:18 <tusho> <optbot>fizzie: lament!
21:02:19 <optbot> tusho: mhm?
21:02:21 <tusho> COMPILE INTO LAMENT
21:03:06 <ais523> ^show bf
21:03:06 <fizzie> ^reload
21:03:16 <fizzie> Hmmm.
21:03:30 <fizzie> You killed my reload.
21:03:31 <fizzie> ^reload
21:03:32 <fungot> Reloaded.
21:03:37 <fizzie> ^show something
21:03:39 <fizzie> Foo, bar.
21:03:57 <fizzie> Now it doesn't mess the next message; just a missing $ which left a loop var on the stack.
21:04:48 <fizzie> Anyway, "^show bf" won't work unless you "^def bf bf something", and even then the built-in ^bf command will get executed, not the defined one.
21:05:37 <tusho> ^def bf bf bf
21:05:38 <fungot> Defined.
21:05:40 <tusho> ^show bf
21:05:44 <tusho> lol
21:05:48 <fizzie> Well, it's an empty program now. :p
21:05:50 <fizzie> ^def bf bf .
21:05:51 <fungot> Defined.
21:05:53 <fizzie> ^show bf
21:05:54 <fungot> .
21:07:17 <tusho> <lament>my keyboard feels sticky and disgusting :(
21:07:23 <tusho> be more careful when watching catted-together porn files
21:07:45 <psygnisfive> hey guys! :D
21:07:50 <tusho> oh no
21:08:10 <psygnisfive> hey tusho.
21:10:39 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
21:14:35 <fizzie> ^reload
21:14:36 <fungot> Reloaded.
21:14:53 <tusho> ugh
21:14:54 <tusho> die perl die
21:14:57 <tusho> you are making no sense
21:16:02 <tusho> so. ais523. talk about how awesome perl is
21:16:06 <tusho> because I'm almost giving up
21:16:08 <tusho> and I don't want to.
21:16:27 <fizzie> ^rot13 nqqrq guvf ntnva
21:16:28 <fungot> added this again
21:16:42 <oklopol> ^rot13 b
21:16:43 <fungot> o
21:16:58 <oklopol> ^rot13 ebg13
21:16:59 <fungot> rot13
21:17:11 <fizzie> I don't dare to ^show it, but theoretically speaking it should cut the program at 450 characters and therefore not excess flood again.
21:17:19 <tusho> ^show rot13
21:17:20 -!- fungot has quit (Excess Flood).
21:17:23 <tusho> nope
21:17:26 <fizzie> Aww. :/
21:19:03 <fizzie> My Befunge code is always so buggy, I'd almost need a good IDE for this. RC/Funge-98's "set bp x y" + "show stack" is slow.
21:19:31 <tusho> fizzie: Write befunge-mode.el? :P
21:20:17 <tusho> http://ircbrowse.com/channel/esoteric/20080307 <-- Tee hee, this is before Deewiant started coming here
21:20:22 <tusho> grep for deewiant
21:21:04 <tusho> <ais523>okoing?
21:21:07 <tusho> <oklofok>ais523: okokokokokokokokoko
21:21:10 <tusho> <ais523>why would anyone do that?
21:21:22 <tusho> lololololololol
21:21:36 <dogface_> oko: it's like lol, but better somehow.
21:22:10 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
21:22:31 <ais523> o
21:22:44 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:22:53 <tusho> oh lord
21:22:57 <tusho> those were the days of bashfunge
21:23:01 <tusho> ais523: hilarious quote you have to admit
21:23:08 -!- megatron has joined.
21:23:21 <dogface_> lol means laugh out loud or some such; oko means ortsuhtaraz karps oslo or some such.
21:23:28 -!- megatron has quit (Client Quit).
21:23:38 <tusho> oko means okokokokokokokokokoko
21:24:22 <oklopol> i remember the whole conversation like it was yesterday, also i find myself goddamn hilarious
21:25:38 -!- fungot has joined.
21:25:43 <fizzie> ^show rot13
21:25:44 -!- fungot has quit (Excess Flood).
21:25:46 <tusho> lol
21:25:47 <fizzie> NGH.
21:25:47 <tusho> you beat me
21:26:12 <fizzie> I am the suck in writing Befunge code.
21:26:23 -!- fungot has joined.
21:26:30 <fizzie> You do the honours.
21:26:35 <tusho> ^show rot13
21:26:36 <fungot> ,[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[>1+1>999+255[
21:26:40 <tusho> ...
21:26:44 <tusho> That's...broken, but pretty.
21:26:52 <oklopol> >999?
21:27:08 <fizzie> oklopol: A 1000-cell tape, so < turns into >999 (modulo 1000).
21:27:13 <tusho> It's OVER 9999
21:27:15 <tusho> err
21:27:15 <tusho> 999
21:27:59 <fizzie> The ^show command could turn all >N, with N>500, into <M, where M=1000-N. And the same with +/-, except the wrapping there happens at 256.
21:28:12 <fizzie> ^rot13 does the command still work?
21:28:14 <fungot> qbrf gur pbzznaq fgvyy jbex?
21:28:17 -!- kar8nga has quit ("Leaving.").
21:29:00 <fizzie> These amps go up to eleven.
21:30:06 <dogface_> My brother is stereotypical when it comes to commenting on YouTube.
21:30:27 -!- megatron has joined.
21:30:59 <oklopol> PSOX topic!!
21:31:11 <tusho> yep
21:33:02 * ais523 wonders if Sgeo wrote that
21:33:12 <ais523> or whether his PSOX client had it as a join message
21:33:31 <oklopol> the client thing
21:33:44 <tusho> yeah
21:33:46 <tusho> it was his bot.
21:33:50 <tusho> it printed that out then exited.
21:34:05 <tusho> he made it by writing the psox commands and made a crappy textgen to write the bf program for him.
21:34:07 <tusho> such talent.
21:35:08 <ais523> Hi all. This client is written in C++, believe it or not. It uses KDE. You can get information about KDE at http://kde.org.
21:35:28 * ais523 suspects that Konversation was probably not written with a generator
21:35:56 <tusho> ais523: i grinned
21:36:30 <tusho> Hi all. This client is written in Objective-C, believe it or not. It uses Cocoa. You can get information about Cocoa at http://developer.apple.com/cocoa/.
21:36:51 <ais523> tusho: how did you determine which lang it was in?
21:37:03 <ais523> C++ makes sense for a KDE app, but I downloaded source to check
21:37:18 <tusho> Cocoa apps have to be written in Objective-C.
21:37:24 <tusho> The only thing C can use is Carbon,.
21:37:34 <tusho> (Well, you can use any language with an Obj-C interface too.)
21:37:40 <ais523> tusho: can't they be written in something completely different and use an interpreter?
21:37:56 <tusho> yes. but OS X apps are overwhelmingly commonly written in Objective-C
21:38:06 <tusho> the exceptions are _very_ rare
21:38:23 <ais523> that's where gcc's objective-c support came from
21:38:33 <ais523> Apple used gcc to write their objective-c compiler
21:38:35 <lament> Hi all. This client is written in C, believe it or not. It uses ncurses. You can get information about ncurses at http://www.gnu.org/software/ncurses/.
21:38:41 <ais523> and had to release source due to distributing it
21:38:47 <tusho> ais523: NeXT wrote it, actually.
21:38:52 <ais523> tusho: ah, ok
21:39:19 <tusho> ais523: OS X is the result of a love affair of NeXTStep, more traditional unix and some classical Mac OS.
21:39:24 <tusho> and the Mach kernel.
21:39:24 <oklopol> sleep time ->
21:39:34 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:39:46 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
21:40:51 <lament> OS X is the result of a love affair between postmodernist middle-class guilt and heavy marketing.
21:41:15 <tusho> lament: Says one of the main OS X advocates in here. :)
21:43:45 <tusho> FUCK PERL
21:45:51 <bsmntbombdood> I CAN HAS CHEEZBURGER?
21:46:08 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: I don't has a cheezburger for you, unfortunately
21:46:09 <tusho> I CAN FUCK CHEEZBURGR?
21:46:10 <tusho> wait, no
21:46:12 <ais523> but welcome alive!
21:46:55 <GregorR> This popcorn is 94% fat free!
21:47:04 <GregorR> That of course means that it's 6% PURE FAT.
21:48:52 <bsmntbombdood> i love it when they say that
21:49:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:49:48 * ais523 manoeuvers through a door standing on one leg and balancing a laptop on the other
21:50:43 <ais523> oh, hi GregorR
21:50:50 <ais523> I haven't seen you here for a while either
21:51:04 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:51:12 -!- LinuS has joined.
21:51:45 <GregorR> ais523: I've been busy with preparing for grad school.
21:51:54 <ais523> ah, ok
21:52:00 <ais523> well, nobody has to be here 24/7
21:52:10 <ais523> nor even 8/3 or so like I am at the moment
21:52:15 <GregorR> :P
21:52:25 <ais523> the rest of the time I've been working on a C to Brainfuck compiler
21:52:29 <ais523> written as a backend to gcc
21:52:34 <GregorR> Awesome!
21:52:47 <GregorR> How are you working around the problem with GCC liking registers?
21:52:54 <ais523> 64 registers
21:52:58 <ais523> at the left end of the tape
21:53:02 <GregorR> Ah, OK.
21:53:08 <ais523> well, 65 really, but one gcc doesn't know about
21:53:12 <ais523> also stack pointer and frame pointer
21:53:17 <ais523> and I'm going to add cc0 too soon
21:53:22 <ais523> having it in main memory's causing too many problems
21:53:28 <GregorR> Are you using BF itself as the "assembly" language, or do you have an intermediary?
21:53:34 <ais523> intermediary
21:53:39 <ais523> that looks very like asm
21:53:42 <ais523> in fact, that arguably is asm
21:53:51 <GregorR> For a fictional hardware :)
21:53:54 <ais523> yes
21:54:09 <ais523> then to the right of the registers I have 6 interleaved tapes
21:54:13 <ais523> each of which holds information
21:54:20 <ais523> 2 to mark locations on the other tapes
21:54:22 <ais523> 1 for the stack
21:54:27 <ais523> 1 for the stack pointer and frame pointer
21:54:29 <ais523> 1 for main memory
21:54:37 <ais523> and 1 which I'm not using for anything yet
21:55:07 <ais523> the code assumes that long strings of + - < and > are as efficient as a single character
21:55:13 <ais523> because they are in most decent interps nowadays
21:56:03 <GregorR> Yuh
21:57:05 <tusho> .
21:58:41 <tusho> .
21:59:47 <tusho> idea
21:59:55 <tusho> a light-casting esolang
22:00:04 <ais523> based on refraction and reflection?
22:00:10 <tusho> you can view the code-space (shared for data) by checking how far your light travelled
22:00:12 <tusho> or something
22:00:12 <ais523> sort of like Gravity, but a different physical process
22:00:15 <tusho> and that's it
22:00:18 <tusho> that is
22:00:22 <tusho> you can't access it directly
22:00:23 <tusho> also yes
22:00:27 <tusho> refraction & reflection
22:00:39 <tusho> with something like a 3d raycaster (I think) for accessing data
22:03:27 <tusho> *oerjan suddenly wonders if you could combine gosub and COME FROM
22:03:31 <tusho> COME SUB
22:03:40 <ais523> tusho: oerjan: NEXT FROM, it's been done
22:03:53 <tusho> ais523: that was from 2008-03-07
22:03:53 <tusho> :P
22:03:57 <ais523> still
22:04:01 <ais523> oerjan might be logreading
22:06:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
22:08:20 <tusho> .654545564
22:09:04 <ais523> tusho: that's out-of-range as a variable name
22:09:29 <tusho> heh
22:11:09 <oklopol> Deewiant: i have a good guess why your n ranks have dropped
22:11:49 <oklopol> unless people actually manage to get scores over a million :)
22:12:07 <tusho> counter? :P
22:12:11 <tusho> (jokin)
22:12:11 <ais523> oklopol: context?
22:12:24 <oklopol> fin:jokin = eng:something
22:12:30 <oklopol> ais523: n is a game.
22:12:34 <oklopol> with an unfortunate name
22:12:44 <oklopol> dunno who's to blame
22:12:46 <oklopol> but it's quite a shame
22:13:03 <oklopol> this doesn't even ...rhayme
22:13:12 <ais523> oklopol: at what point in the above did you realise it was all rhyming?
22:13:22 <ais523> was it deliberate from the start, or did you suddenly notice?
22:13:30 <oklopol> i noticed after thw first two
22:13:36 <oklopol> *the
22:14:16 -!- Linus` has joined.
22:16:51 * oklopol is watching Deewiant own at n
22:27:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit ("Verlassend").
22:27:31 <tusho> oh yeah
22:27:32 <tusho> that game
22:31:35 -!- LinuS has quit (Connection timed out).
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22:35:33 <fizzie> ^show echo
22:35:34 <fungot> >1,[.>1,]>999[>999]+32[.>1]
22:35:36 <fizzie> ^reload
22:35:37 <fungot> Reloaded.
22:35:39 <fizzie> ^show echo
22:35:40 <fungot> >,[.>,]<[<]+32[.>]
22:35:47 <fizzie> Much better.
22:36:24 <tusho> oh man oklopol
22:36:32 <tusho> you know  that game we(#esoteric) played a while back
22:36:36 <tusho> about travelling in the past
22:36:41 <tusho> that is, your dude repeated the stuff
22:36:44 <tusho> and you added an extra one
22:36:47 <tusho> what about the same, but for the future.
22:36:50 <ais523> oh, I thought you meant the random-letters game without any obvious rules
22:36:54 <tusho> you start as the last one and then go back to the first.
22:36:56 <tusho> :D
22:37:09 <tusho> ais523: the rules are very clear
22:37:10 <tusho> let me demonstrate
22:37:12 <tusho> rp
22:37:12 <tusho> er
22:37:13 <tusho> e
22:37:21 <ais523> k
22:37:48 <tusho> g
22:37:54 <ais523> \
22:38:02 <tusho> @
22:38:17 <ais523> €
22:38:29 <tusho> 4
22:38:34 <ais523> _
22:39:23 <tusho> d
22:39:27 <ais523> J
22:39:32 <tusho> e
22:39:33 <tusho> yay, i win
22:39:48 <tusho> also, grrr. kunaki don't do hybrid cds
22:39:49 <tusho> >:(
22:44:19 <tusho> someone share in my anger
22:44:36 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:45:46 <tusho> ...
22:45:47 <tusho> nobody?
22:46:09 <Mony> ...
22:46:17 <Mony> except me !
22:46:22 * ais523 is mildly annoyed
22:46:31 <ais523> I can't really gather my feelings for true anger, though
22:46:34 <ais523> not atm, I'm too tired
22:46:39 <ais523> so you'll have to make do with mild annoyance from me
22:46:47 <tusho> ais523: but is it for the same thing
22:46:58 <ais523> no idea
22:47:03 <ais523> I'm just being angry because you told me to
22:47:13 <ais523> #irp was active earlier today, you see
22:47:18 <ais523> although it's become quiet again
22:47:30 <tusho> the anger is because kunaki.com won't print hybrid cds apparently for some unfathomable reason
22:47:39 <tusho> even though they just copy the cd you give them 1:1
22:47:46 <ais523> hybrid cds?
22:47:47 <tusho> they apparently won't let you do hybrid audio/data cds
22:47:50 <ais523> ah
22:48:04 <tusho> no reason why...
22:48:09 <tusho> it's as easy as copying any other cd 1:1
22:48:20 <tusho> and it's hardly like it's good for their business, as they've just lost a customer.
22:49:05 <oklopol> tusho: that wouldn't work
22:49:12 <oklopol> now, really, sleep
22:49:13 <oklopol> ->
22:49:14 <tusho> oklopol: what wouldn't?
22:49:14 <ais523> maybe it's just someone with a CD burner
22:49:24 <tusho> a hybrid auto/data cd?
22:49:25 <oklopol> tusho: it.
22:49:28 <tusho> oklopol: define it.
22:49:31 <ais523> who just copies the filesystem for a data folder or uses some CD rip/burn for the audio
22:49:36 <fizzie> Information Technology.
22:49:41 <tusho> ais523: except they apparently copy even the minutae
22:49:44 <tusho> it's somewhere in their faq
22:49:46 <ais523> and doesn't know how to deal with a hybrid
22:49:49 <oklopol> no.
22:49:50 <oklopol> ->
22:49:56 <tusho> oklopol: gee you're helpful
22:50:06 <tusho> just pester me with cryptic messages then refuse to explain them why don't you
22:50:08 <oklopol> future game.
22:50:14 <oklopol> ->
22:50:52 <tusho> oh
22:50:57 <tusho> and it could work! with a time machine
22:50:58 <tusho> [[  1.10 Does Kunaki replicate (press) or duplicate discs?
22:50:58 <tusho> Kunaki duplicates discs. Duplication has made major strides over the last few years. Today mediocre duplication is superior to bad replication. And superior duplication is better than mediocre replication. Lastly, superior duplication is every bit as good as the best replication. ]]
22:51:22 <tusho> so yes, they literally duplicate it
22:51:37 <tusho> [[  2.9 How does my content go to Kunaki’s facility?
22:51:38 <tusho> Our publishing software makes a perfect bit-by-bit copy (including the disc geometry) of your original disc. The software then uploads a perfect copy to our facility using special communications software that automatically resumes from disconnects and reboots. It will not fail and there is no possibility of errors to your content or artwork.
22:51:38 <tusho>    2.10 Will the manufactured disc content be identical to my original content?
22:51:38 <tusho> Yes. Not a single bit will be different. Even the disc geometry is maintained. If you have errors or skips on your original, they will appear in the manufactured products. ]]
22:51:57 <ais523> why are you trying to duplicate CDs, anyway?
22:52:17 <fizzie> "It will not fail and there is no possibility of errors" is quite a statement.
22:52:20 <ais523> hmm... maybe hybrid CDs are patented
22:52:25 <tusho> fizzie: probably they do verification
22:52:32 <tusho> ais523: nah
22:52:36 <tusho> it's all standard, commonplace stuff
22:52:38 <tusho> i see them all the time
22:52:47 <tusho> in fact, it's hard to find an album that isn't a hybrid cd in my experience
22:52:51 <tusho> i mean, well, not hard
22:53:00 <tusho> but if you go to a record store most of the modern CDs will probably be hybrids
22:53:08 <tusho> ais523: as for why i'm duplicating cds, well, I want a cd printed. :)
22:53:14 <fizzie> Sure, but it can still fail due to cosmic radiation flipping exactly the right bits. Or more likely because their underpaid overworked coder has messed up his array indexing.
22:53:25 <tusho> ais523: they ship it and everything for you
22:53:29 -!- hioxz has joined.
22:53:40 <tusho> they just set up a little page where it can be bought, also an xml-based api so that you can integrate it with stuff
22:53:44 <tusho> fizzie: Well, true.
22:53:45 <ais523> tusho: how many do you want printed?
22:53:46 <fizzie> So you get both the CD and additionally "everything". Not bad.
22:53:55 <fizzie> ^rot13 bcgobg!
22:53:55 <tusho> ais523: however many are bought
22:53:56 <fungot> optbot!
22:53:57 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | you get better speed than I do, for both of them.
22:54:02 <ais523> tusho: what are you selling?
22:54:06 <tusho> kunaki just duplicate, package and send out a cd automatically whenever one is ordered from the page
22:54:08 <tusho> and magic in CD form, duh
22:54:11 <tusho> everything I do is magic.
22:54:17 <ais523> yes, but what specifically?
22:54:24 <tusho> why does it matter :)
22:54:30 <tusho> anyway, this is all hypothetical
22:54:38 <tusho> so i wouldn't be able to answer your question even if i wasn't in a cryptic mood
22:54:48 <ais523> ah
22:54:54 <ais523> more importantly, why would people want to buy it?
22:55:02 <tusho> because they want magic.
22:55:03 <tusho> duh.
22:55:35 <fizzie> "Get the magic back into your life! Get one of Tusho's Magic Discs!"
22:55:39 <tusho> precisely
22:56:27 <fizzie> Add 3-4 inches! Order now!
22:56:36 <tusho> no
22:56:39 <tusho> magic-magic magics
22:56:40 <fizzie> Oh.
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23:05:09 <oerjan> ais523: of course i don't.  what a perverted idea!
23:05:25 <ais523> oerjan: were you logreading?
23:05:36 <ais523> and if so what in particular were you replying to?
23:05:39 <ais523> if not, context?
23:05:51 <oerjan> <ais523> oerjan might be logreading
23:06:34 <ais523> ah, ok
23:06:49 <ais523> so, did you know about NEXT FROM before you read my comment there?
23:07:09 <oerjan> nope
23:07:49 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL invented it and implemented it first
23:07:55 <ais523> and it's quite neat, really
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23:25:08 <tusho> heh, idea
23:25:38 <tusho> use google appengine's thingy that lets you use google accounts as authentication
23:25:43 <tusho> to make a google account->openid thing
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23:34:14 <Mony> night
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2008-08-28:

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00:11:46 <tusho> fun fact
00:11:52 <tusho> the writer of the Worse is Better essay doesn't actually agree with it
00:12:02 <Slereah_> This fact is not fun
00:12:04 <tusho> http://dreamsongs.com/Files/worse-is-worse.pdf
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00:41:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | on the other hand i used a trie in my newest interpreter, which is how the subject came up i think.
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01:21:29 <pikhq> "Worse is Better" is little more than old-style UNIX's modus operandi.
01:21:42 <pikhq> It's not necessarily a good way to write software, it's just a way to get it done quick, dirty, and cheap.
01:22:01 <pikhq> Arguably, nobody has figured that out yet.
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01:22:55 <oerjan> optbot!
01:22:56 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | lol.
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02:44:28 <psygnisfive> dogface!
02:44:46 <dogface> Let me guess: :-(
02:44:58 <psygnisfive> :D
02:45:09 <psygnisfive> please? :(
02:45:16 <psygnisfive> if you dont wanna do it you dont have to
02:45:19 <psygnisfive> but you said you would!
02:45:41 <dogface> Well, it hasn't been one of the things on my mind.
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02:46:30 <dogface> I've been thinking about teaching a piano to sing, teaching a chatbot to count IQ points, teaching myself to memorize...
02:47:05 <dogface> Teaching a piano to sing is the most interesting-sounding one because I didn't have to say "teaching".
02:50:08 <oerjan> boring. try teaching a chatbot to sing, teaching a piano to memorize, and teaching yourself to count IQ points
02:50:24 <oerjan> or maybe...
02:51:01 <oerjan> also, the chickens are restless.
02:53:32 <dogface> Chatbots cannot sing, pianos cannot memorize, and me counting IQ points would just be silly.
02:54:11 <dogface> Much more interesting: teach a chatbot to memorize, myself to sing, and a piano to count IQ points. All very easy, except that last one.
02:54:15 <oerjan> WHOOSH!!!
02:54:35 <oerjan> that _would_ depend btw.
02:54:53 <oerjan> you could be tone deaf.
02:55:43 <psygnisfive> x.x
02:56:44 <dogface> I have absolute pitch but unfortunately am kind of tone deaf, yes.
02:56:59 <dogface> Well, maybe not.
02:57:26 <dogface> Yeah, never mind. I can sing the way my brother cannot.
03:01:39 <psygnisfive> cmon dogface please? :O
03:01:49 <dogface> oerjan, will you do it?
03:01:56 <dogface> Or I could have Aftran do it.
03:05:39 <oerjan> huh what?
03:10:32 <dogface> oerjan, will you make a grammar (BNF-like, maybe) of English syntax so psygnisfive will be appeased?
03:10:49 <psygnisfive> this is totally not the point, dogface! >_<
03:10:52 <psygnisfive> you're ruining it!
03:11:01 <dogface> I am?
03:11:04 <psygnisfive> yes
03:11:21 <dogface> What's the point, then? To compare oklopol's idea of English syntax to mine?
03:11:24 <psygnisfive> by even suggesting a BNF like grammar you've tainted oerjan
03:11:28 <dogface> Oh.
03:11:46 <dogface> oklopol, make it BNF-like, maybe.
03:11:50 <dogface> Satisfied? :-P
03:11:56 <psygnisfive> now you've tainted oklopol!!
03:12:11 <dogface> Now both the control and the... non-control are equally tainted again.
03:12:19 <psygnisfive> the point was that no assumptions about the grammar should be introduced, it can take whatever form you need
03:12:25 <psygnisfive> i already have a control
03:12:37 <psygnisfive> :P
03:12:46 <psygnisfive> tho oklopol's already using BNF so it doesnt matter
03:13:03 <oerjan> the grammar is of a transcendent essence - incomprehensible by human reason
03:13:12 <psygnisfive> lol
03:13:15 <oerjan> AUM
03:13:16 <dogface> BNF, really?
03:13:19 <psygnisfive> yeah
03:13:26 <psygnisfive> noone wants to participate! :(
03:13:45 <dogface> It's rather difficult.
03:13:51 <psygnisfive> its not
03:13:54 <psygnisfive> you just arent trying :(
03:14:00 <dogface> Why do you want this done, by the way?
03:14:23 <psygnisfive> i want to see what sort of ideas non-linguists come up with
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03:14:37 <dogface> Aftran's not qualified, then.
03:14:45 <Sgeo> dogface, for what?
03:14:56 <psygnisfive> sort of a metaexperiment to see if the current body of linguistics research is too tradition steeped or not
03:14:58 <dogface> <psygnisfive> i want to see what sort of ideas non-linguists come up with
03:15:08 * dogface ponders
03:15:08 <Sgeo> Oh
03:15:11 <Sgeo> =P
03:15:41 <psygnisfive> i mean, you guys are already tainted in your knowledge of formal grammars
03:16:08 <psygnisfive> ive already seen some distinctly mainline linguistics type ideas from you guys
03:16:17 <dogface> Well, I'd make it mostly BNF, except that conjunction and matching of pronouns make it wacko.
03:16:25 <psygnisfive> whereas this other person im sort of poking and prodding is coming up with less mainstream ideas
03:16:42 <psygnisfive> dogface: but thats the fun part! itll be very difficult for you to make it BNF
03:17:01 <psygnisfive> there are numerous apparently non-BNF behaviors
03:17:15 <psygnisfive> and no clear CFG can account for the data
03:17:31 <psygnisfive> thats why its so interesting
03:17:35 <dogface> <X> ::= <X> "and" <X>, where X is any type of phrase at all.
03:17:50 <psygnisfive> yes, thats a trivial CFG rule
03:17:56 <psygnisfive> but there are other things that aren't so trivial
03:18:00 <psygnisfive> so many things
03:18:19 <dogface> "Where" is a phrase. "Is" is a phrase. "Any" is a phrase. "Type" is a phrase. "Of" is a phrase. "Phrase" is a phrase. "At" is a phrase. "All" is a phrase.
03:18:41 <psygnisfive> :P
03:18:44 <psygnisfive> dont make me smack you
03:18:47 <dogface> I think calculus is necessary.
03:18:51 <psygnisfive> lol
03:18:53 <psygnisfive> ::smack::
03:19:01 <dogface> Hey, I'm being serious, here. :-)
03:19:13 <dogface> Calculus is useful in Haskell programming, after all.
03:20:40 <dogface> Differentiate <X> ::= <X> "and" <X>, and you get 1 ::= <X> "and" 1 | 1 "and" <X>.
03:21:31 <dogface> I'm sure that's useful somehow.
03:21:57 <psygnisfive> no, its not :P
03:22:29 <dogface> How dare you deny the utility of things I say I'm sure are useful.
03:22:43 <psygnisfive> cmon, you have the sentences
03:22:43 <dogface> Though I only say I'm sure when I'm not sure, as you're all aware.
03:22:47 <psygnisfive> i wanna see your ideas
03:22:54 <psygnisfive> you're not even trying you're just being random :(
03:22:59 <dogface> I'm pondering how to apply this calculus stuff to it.
03:23:00 <psygnisfive> if you dont wanna do it just say so
03:23:11 <psygnisfive> but dont say yes and then not do it
03:23:50 <dogface> I don't want you to require me to do it.
03:24:02 <psygnisfive> you're not required, but you said you would
03:24:09 <psygnisfive> which means i expect you to do it :P
03:24:26 <psygnisfive> otherwise you're a liar! :(
03:24:27 <dogface> England requires that every man will do his duty?
03:53:30 <psygnisfive> cmon dogface
03:53:36 <psygnisfive> if you dont want to do it, just say so
03:53:51 <dogface> I don't want you to expect me to do it.
03:54:04 <psygnisfive> i expect you to do it only if you say you'll do it.
03:54:59 <dogface> I don't say I'll do it, then.
03:55:36 <psygnisfive> :(
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08:00:08 <fizzie> Added yet another channel to the fungot mix, but as it has only 12M of logs (compared to 35M of #esoteric and 72M of #scheme) it probably won't show much.
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08:02:01 <fizzie> Oh, orwell.freenode.net had bumped fungot off, also.
08:02:02 <fungot> fizzie: no fnord headers like in c++... so you get the idea. i have a graph of the number of possible matches excluded at each node, and you wanted to do
08:03:19 <fizzie> If fungot ends up speaking Finnish a bit, it's because of that third channel. I'm not certain it has been quite unilingual all the time.
08:03:20 <fungot> fizzie: scheme48 is good, ffi may not matter.' that was based on... xml! i like my new cat moving in here. completely different thing than replacing, namely, the word itself does not specify which functions are not first class, yes, might well be faster than others i guess
08:03:52 <fizzie> That's one messed-up bot right there.
08:25:13 <oklopol> so's your cat
08:25:52 <oklopol> psygnisfive: can you share with me the non-mainstream ideas?
08:26:00 <fizzie> I think it was someone else's cat; we didn't get a cat until later.
08:26:08 <oklopol> or with us, same thing from my perspective ofc
08:26:14 <psygnisfive> i cant share with you anything
08:26:20 <psygnisfive> it would ruin the experiment oklopol
08:26:23 <oklopol> oh
08:26:25 <oklopol> right :)
08:26:51 <psygnisfive> i wish you'd fuckin get online earlier
08:26:56 <oklopol> :P
08:26:57 <psygnisfive> because im going to bed now :(
08:27:00 <oklopol> hehe
08:27:06 <psygnisfive> ::hug:: just message me any ideas youve had
08:27:10 <psygnisfive> or email me
08:27:14 <psygnisfive> or aim
08:27:18 <psygnisfive> im psygnisfive on aim
08:27:20 <oklopol> yeah sure
08:27:23 <psygnisfive> psygnisfive@yahoo.com for email
08:27:32 <oklopol> also i'm doing some night watchmanship this weekend
08:27:44 <oklopol> so i might have some nightly time to waste for you
08:27:49 <psygnisfive> cool.
08:27:50 <psygnisfive> night dude
08:27:53 <psygnisfive> ::bite::
08:27:54 <oklopol> nights
08:28:57 <oklopol> perhaps i should ignore all messages with ::xx::'s from psygnisfive, would make our conversations a whole lot less gay :P
08:29:14 <psygnisfive> ::fuck::
08:29:15 <psygnisfive> ;O
08:29:24 <psygnisfive> ::gayrapesex::
08:29:29 <oklopol> don't worry, i don't ignore
08:29:40 <psygnisfive> ;)
08:29:40 <oklopol> i find it scary
08:29:41 <psygnisfive> night
08:29:44 <lament> fags
08:30:02 <psygnisfive> ;)
08:30:02 <oklopol> night; ignoring is like pressing the "i never want to do the update" button when you don't wanna do an update
08:30:05 <psygnisfive> you know you love it lament
08:30:10 <psygnisfive> ::kisses lament goodnight::
08:30:10 <oklopol> what if i wanna do it in 10 years?
08:30:25 <lament> a goodnight french kiss eh
08:30:27 <oklopol> thus, i must press "ask again later".
08:30:53 <lament> you can always unignore in 10 years
08:31:11 <oklopol> well true, i guess that's a bit different
08:31:22 <psygnisfive> NIGHT GUISE
08:31:45 <oklopol> perhaps i just wanna feel loved or something, like, subconsciously
08:31:54 <oklopol> night you silly goose
08:32:14 <psygnisfive> ::loves oklopol subconciously::
08:33:18 <oklopol> can't you sleep unless we shut up?
08:33:30 <oklopol> i can't, but i'm a fucking retard
08:33:39 <psygnisfive> i cant D:
08:33:42 <oklopol> hehe
08:33:47 <psygnisfive> ive got a monitor bolted over my eyes
08:33:53 <oklopol> well, i'm off to university in a few minutes
08:33:56 <psygnisfive> if you dont stop talking i see the text move!
08:34:35 <fizzie> fungot: Quick, say something before psygnisfive falls asleep.
08:34:36 <fungot> fizzie: fnord windows. that's always tricky. i could actually make progress on my bf 2 glypho compiler last night :) fnord/ fnord/ fnord generic dispatch system, which is an improvement of the scheme community is clearly fragmented with respect to srfi mailing lists... it had to do our project things occasionally.
08:34:41 <psygnisfive> X_X
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08:35:06 <oklopol> what's this thing fungot has for fnords
08:35:07 <fungot> oklopol: it gives the rest to be a priest; while doing that, but it ends up being even more annoying. the ones which come with perl, sometimes without so much as readability
08:35:10 <oklopol> and what are fnords
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08:35:47 <fizzie> oklopol: Didn't I mention? All out-of-vocabulary words (words that occurred only once in the logs) get mapped to token 0 ('UNK') which fungot expands as "fnord".
08:35:47 <fungot> fizzie: i also have mit-scheme installed, although i don't claim t is useful yet.
08:35:57 <oklopol> after fjord, they just started making up impossible-to-pronounce words without meaning, methinks
08:36:10 <oklopol> oh
08:36:14 <fizzie> And fnord is a Discordianism term.
08:36:29 <fizzie> fungot: Uh, how did you manage to install mit-scheme in your little chroot jail?
08:36:30 <fungot> fizzie: this just has ' smbsh' but it's still not easy yet though, unless you'd call scheme's lambda procedure calls ' scheme's object system. ( by ' fusably atomically,' i mean as a complement, not a complete object serialization specification; it's pretty useless without it. :p it was supposed to be
08:36:31 <oklopol> i don't know what that means
08:36:38 <lament> FNORD
08:36:53 <fizzie> Wikipedia "Fnord", then; the article seems accurate enough.
08:36:58 <oklopol> NEVER
08:37:00 <oklopol> ->
08:37:10 <fizzie> There's also a web server, but that's not why I picked it.
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10:51:31 <Mony> bye
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12:41:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Why is he so racist against ... uh ... pig ... penises ....
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14:17:25 * SimonRC is suffering from internet fail, and will remain gone.
14:21:13 <oklopol> SimonRC: what does that mean?
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15:19:11 <AnMaster> optbot!
15:19:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | imagine that.
15:29:35 <tusho> heh
15:32:20 <oklopol> :P
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15:44:17 <ais523> hi tusho
15:45:27 <tusho> hi ais523 .
15:49:12 <Slereah_> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/fetishes.png
15:49:17 <Slereah_> This is relevant to my interests.
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16:24:49 <ais523> hi tusho_
16:25:00 <tusho_> fucking internet
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16:25:56 <Mony> bye
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17:29:21 <psygnisfive> blargle!
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18:38:15 <ais523> wb ais523
18:38:32 <Deewiant> optbot!
18:38:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | could be a leak in my code too, forgetting to clear the results at some point..
18:41:38 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | found the problem.07:40:00.
18:46:51 <Deewiant> optbot!
18:46:51 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | conkeror was much less than i expected.
18:47:29 <ais523> heh, optbot set the topic three times but was only shouted at twice
18:47:29 <optbot> ais523: you can't find the shortest program in the general case
18:48:12 <Deewiant> it either does it randomly or somebody knows how to tell it via query
18:48:24 <ais523> Deewiant: it does it every six hours, I think
18:48:31 <ais523> it was just fortuitous timing I expect
18:48:41 <ais523> oh, and hi fungot
18:48:42 <fungot> ais523: that it provides a structured combinator-based interface as well. it doesn't happen by default, doesn't like the fnord approach. 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
18:48:56 <ais523> fungot: what's with all the zeros?
18:48:57 <fungot> ais523: it's a little sampler of every tract. how come my dr scheme does not work here... unbound variable: the. notation ( can't find that thingie with google/ googlism. i'll gripe if it's an object with a finalizer needs to be
18:49:10 -!- Deewiant has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00.
18:49:20 * ais523 likes it
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21:01:10 <fizzie> fungot: Where did you get those zeros?
21:01:10 <fungot> fizzie: i am a toy by both definitions expressions if used in excess where unnecessary, perhaps. not that i'd want to use multiple shifts resets in one place
21:01:28 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, you are a toy.
21:01:28 <ais523> fizzie: I assume fungot got them in something posted to a channel
21:01:29 <fungot> fizzie: homo sapiens, last i checked
21:01:29 <fungot> ais523: you're lucky, break everything! i mean the set of srfis array slices subarray copying) 2.) define a condition type is created
21:01:46 <ais523> fizzie: it actually gave you an intelligible and relevant reply...
21:02:46 <fizzie> Yes, that's a surprise.
21:03:19 <ais523> optbot does that a lot more often
21:03:19 <optbot> ais523: yes
21:03:22 <ais523> see what I mean?
21:03:42 <fizzie> Yes, I know. optbot's brain works better, fungot's a bit addled.
21:03:43 <optbot> fizzie: seems simple
21:03:43 <fungot> fizzie: it's not a running computation, since there are bfi programs it should be spelled " unnescessary". every recursive call to fact occurs in the _argument_ position for the 70% of the time at some point, sharing might prove useful
21:04:11 <ais523> what fungot says normally almost makes sense without quite getting there
21:04:12 <fungot> ais523: you got cut off at ' because there is nothing implicit. to we pass a pair around, and they can tinker with it. i have a working password to the unix shell and file i/ o with monads!!! chicken installs an scheme-r5rs in /usr/ sbin/ named doesn't segfault but waits infinitely at fnord,
21:05:25 <fizzie> I don't think it's a good idea to install scheme-r5rs in /usr/sbin/named.
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21:16:02 <ais523> fizzie: yep, probably not
21:16:13 <ais523> although it probably wouldn't bork a system, it would just be utterly pointless
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22:15:47 <ais523> I just saw this on comp.lang.c:
22:15:50 <ais523>  Writing a conforming C
22:15:50 <ais523> > implementation, even one that's not useful, is a sufficiently large
22:15:50 <ais523> > task that nobody has the time to do it as a joke.
22:16:01 <ais523> that just reminded me of #esoteric so much
22:16:28 <Slereah_> Heh.
22:17:02 <ais523> well, arguably I'm doing something like that, but it's based on gcc and so doesn't count
22:17:15 <ais523> gcc for the conformance with C, brainfuck for the weirdness
22:21:02 <Slereah_> Gentlemen.
22:21:06 <Slereah_> I'm asking for input
22:21:16 <Slereah_> What Linux distro would you advise?
22:21:38 <Slereah_> One that is simple to handle for a stupid man like me
22:22:05 <ais523> Slereah_: Ubuntu if you don't want to do much learning of Linux
22:22:46 <lament> ubuntu but remember to install real vim!
22:23:03 <fizzie> Ubuntu is not bad.
22:23:07 <ais523> lament: well it doesn't have full-featured vim or any emacs by default, but installing new programs is trivial
22:23:20 <ais523> Applications | Add/Remove via the GUI, or sudo apt-get via the command line
22:23:23 <ais523> depending on which you prefer to use
22:23:34 <Slereah_> I had Kubuntu back then
22:23:45 <Slereah_> What's the differences between the different Ubuntus?
22:23:48 <lament> i got very confused for a while because 'vim' launches something that looks exactly like vim but doesn't understand anything
22:23:50 <ais523> Slereah_: window manager
22:24:01 <ais523> Ubuntu uses Gnome, Kubuntu uses KDE
22:24:09 <fizzie> They're call desktop environments when there's more stuff than just your basic wm. :p
22:24:15 <ais523> fizzie: ok
22:24:19 <fizzie> And Xubuntu does xfce. Those are I guess the most mainstream ones.
22:24:29 <ais523> Slereah_: you can install both at once if you like, I have both Ubuntu and Kubuntu mixed on here
22:24:45 <ais523> and can log into either Gnome or KDE, although I usually use Gnome
22:24:48 <Slereah_> I guess I'll try Ubuntu.
22:24:49 <ais523> this is a KDE IRC client, though
22:25:50 <fizzie> I've got evilwm in this OS X laptop, and awesome as the wm for my workstation, so I'm probably not the best person to ask for advice in this regard.
22:26:39 <fizzie> fungot, optbot: What Linux distributions do you guys like?
22:26:40 <optbot> fizzie: I don't know about the system egobot needs
22:26:40 <fungot> fizzie: the lang i described above? data module is discussed in sicp. i don't really know about anyone's schedule here.
22:27:19 <fizzie> optbot: Uh, I don't think running egobot is that much of a criterion here.
22:27:20 <optbot> fizzie: just a moment...
22:30:59 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: idkfa
22:30:59 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: happens often :\
22:31:48 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: M-theory
22:31:48 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: Klingon?
22:31:58 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: Borg
22:31:59 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: the design philosophy is creating a language that can be compiled pretty easily and that is designed so that programming errors are either hard to make or easy for the compiler to catch
22:33:09 <lament> optbot: aoeu
22:33:10 <optbot> lament: ok
22:33:50 <ais523> fungot: hi
22:33:51 <fungot> ais523: that is cfunge output fail in firefox is also a popular motivational speaker. get my opinion without explanation as i'm getting shiny after chandler comment :)
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23:00:08 <ais523> fungot: :)
23:00:09 <fungot> ais523: fnord/ wine/ wine/ fnord/ thue/ doc/ mzc/ mzc-z-h-2.htmlnode_chap_2 gc while the program is?, which takes considerable time from scheme48 hacking.
23:00:25 <ais523> fungot: that's some directory path...
23:00:26 <fungot> ais523: since it isn't supported... in non-r5rs systems, then they're all subject to godel numbering, which means morning, or typically good morning, catfive.
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23:11:54 <ais523> o
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2008-08-29:

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00:12:01 <tusho> pikhq: pikhq pikhq pikhq
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00:41:23 <dogface> optbot!
00:41:23 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | all the changes are in the bfbasic CVS tree.
00:41:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Python -> bytecode -> interpretation == interpretation. ;).
00:41:45 <dogface> Oh.
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00:50:57 <tusho> gaga
00:50:58 <tusho> *haha
00:51:01 <tusho> bad timing dogface
00:53:36 <dogface> So, shall I talk about frequency generators?
01:00:39 <dogface> Have two spinning wheels, each with a certain number of marks on it--89 and 144, say. The one with 89 marks spins 144 times per time period, and the one with 144 marks spins 89 times per time period.
01:01:11 <tusho> dogface: tell me how to do calculations with an irc client
01:01:13 <tusho> save for things like /exec
01:01:23 <tusho> just an irc connection, say via telnet
01:01:32 <dogface> Well, it depends on the IRC client.
01:02:28 <tusho> telnet
01:02:41 <dogface> Then what you mean is how to do calculations with an IRC server.
01:02:46 <dogface> Via IRC.
01:03:27 <tusho> Go on, then.
01:03:34 <tusho> You've done pianos.
01:03:36 <tusho> You can do this.
01:03:40 <dogface> I imagine it's possible to do some bitwise cyclic tag thing.
01:04:42 <tusho> Do go on.
01:04:45 <tusho> :D
01:08:08 <dogface> What computation am I allowed to do client-side?
01:09:42 <tusho> Dunno,
01:09:49 <tusho> not an unreasonable amount.
01:10:00 <tusho> i.e. a little more than the piano requires
01:10:03 <tusho> iunu :D
01:27:27 <tusho> http://www.orionsarm.com/intro/WhyNoTimeTravel.html
01:27:31 <tusho> I like the radical rewrite principle
01:45:16 <dogface> Someone travels back in time?
01:45:27 <dogface> How did that happen.
01:45:35 <dogface> Someone travels back in time, and all history since then is erased?
01:50:16 <tusho> Read the whole article, would you.
01:50:24 <tusho> Instead of, like, one paragraph and then ask me.
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03:30:11 <dogface> tusho overestimates the amount I read, I'm afraid.
03:30:33 <dogface> Sgeo: do you know where comex is to be found, here on IRC?
03:31:38 <Sgeo> e's listed as on Freenode right now
03:31:41 <Sgeo> msg em?
03:41:57 <dogface> Oh. I didn't know that.
03:42:37 <dogface> I don't actually have anything to say at the moment.
03:42:51 <dogface> Rather, I'm arbitrarily waiting two weeks before mentioning that he hasn't been active on Normish for a while.
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12:31:22 <tusho> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5458425/description.html
12:41:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hashEsoteric@()=+{if({GregorR~.CheckStatus("BuildingPlofCompiler");}{GreaseMonkey~.Act("BuildTomatoCompiler")});};.
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12:42:53 <tusho> optbot!
12:42:53 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Is inetd universal, or UNIX-like only.
12:43:57 <fizzie> ^rot13 bcgobg!
12:43:58 <fungot> optbot!
12:43:58 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | #google pikhq, I'm a cyborg.
12:51:21 <tusho> ^echo optbot...
12:51:21 <optbot> tusho: !hi guys
12:51:21 <fungot> optbot... optbot...
12:51:21 <optbot> fungot: no, I thought you were wanting the namespace.. if you don't then it doesn't matter
12:51:22 <fungot> optbot: i wrote it. maybe. i don't think i'm going with this? ( ( foo. bar
12:51:23 <optbot> fungot: Sorry :)
12:51:23 <fungot> optbot: i suppose that makes me feel quite confident.. anything not of the sex is of course
12:51:23 <optbot> fungot: read "Non-commutative geometry".
12:51:24 <fungot> optbot: so ( sql ( select 1 1) n where n is the number of linux users: jacob just fixed the " if it's not as fast
12:51:27 <optbot> fungot: ouch
12:51:27 <fungot> optbot: i'd like to refresh my memories :)) then it will do this; i haven't yet
12:51:29 <optbot> fungot: DN?
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12:54:09 <fizzie> The punctuation of fungot, it should really be fixed. I am just too lazy.
12:54:09 <fungot> fizzie: while reading about gdb/ mi: fnord/ fnord
12:56:00 <fizzie> fungot: What are you going to do with the GDB/MI interface? Writing some sort of a frontend? (And where does it say fnord/fnord about it?)
12:56:01 <fungot> fizzie: not my bot. but is it good? i've just been going over the structure? etc)
12:57:15 <fizzie> fungot: You have a bot? And I don't know about GDB/MI, really. I guess it's better than writing text commands to gdb, anyway.
12:57:16 <fungot> fizzie: what do you mean
12:57:52 <fizzie> fungot: I mean, you could just "interface" with GDB by typing commands just like a user would, but that's not very elegant.
12:57:52 <fungot> fizzie: what terrible pi memory. i'm looking forward to that css!
13:30:23 <tusho> that last one made me laugh
13:39:43 <dogface_> fungot, recite pi to 100 digits.
13:39:43 <fungot> dogface_: use null? instead. that'll _definitely_ work.... seeing as there's no coherent definition of " spec" instead of brainfuck.
13:40:03 <dogface_> What terrible pi memory.
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13:42:56 <fizzie> fungot: What kind of bot are you that you can't even recite pi?
13:42:57 <fungot> fizzie: one sec, i'll dig up the link. now. bye. good night
13:43:17 <fizzie> Sounds like a cop-out to me.
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13:56:48 <tusho> haha
13:56:48 <tusho> 18:41:57 --- quit: bsmntbombdood (Killed by lilo (id uncertain))
13:56:49 <tusho> lol wut
13:57:02 <tusho> (from 2006-09-01)
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16:59:41 <bsmntbombdood> tusho: what?
16:59:53 <tusho> bsmntbombdood: what did lilo kill you for
16:59:53 <tusho> :D
17:00:03 <bsmntbombdood> i was probably being a dick
17:00:08 <bsmntbombdood> let me look
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17:01:52 <bsmntbombdood> Sep 01 19:36:31 <lilo>  please id as soon as possible
17:01:58 <bsmntbombdood> dunno
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17:04:39 <bsmntbombdood> i was probably spamming/trolling #freenode-social in a manner i usually didn't
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17:29:51 <Miquay> I used to rule the world, all over now though. Damn Monguls
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17:30:19 <Slereah> lolwut
17:35:25 <psygnisfive> wtf was that XD
17:37:08 <dogface_> ¿Qué pasó?
17:37:19 <psygnisfive> miquay
17:37:45 <Slereah> Miquay ma�z?
17:38:35 <psygnisfive> miquay maos!
17:40:04 <dogface_> Se debe hablar en español cuando es posible, unless you have an opportunity to use the subjunctive in English.
17:40:44 <dogface_> I should say "I ask that he/she/it" more often.
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19:02:03 <tusho> dagyfeis: Dagger farce.
19:02:23 * dagyfeis giggles
19:14:17 <psygnisfive> hey
19:14:26 <psygnisfive> whatchu guys up to
19:18:31 <tusho> nothing
19:19:09 <tusho> <bsmntbombdood> i was probably spamming/trolling #freenode-social in a manner i usually didn't
19:19:13 <tusho> yeah, stick to your vanilla trolling dude
19:20:53 <psygnisfive> Mbsmntbombdood> lol tornado brb
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21:59:40 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: http://bugs.python.org/file11310/log.patch
21:59:40 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: !hangman t
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23:04:55 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: (true && false) == true ?
23:04:55 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: Under emulation?
23:05:59 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: I have a CyberHome Entertainment System for DVDs
23:06:00 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: don't they understand gender is a confusing concept as it is!
23:07:09 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: <p>Hello</p>
23:07:09 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: bad font
23:07:30 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: <p style="font-family : Arial">Hello</p>
23:07:30 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: 5 AnMaster: bf64
23:07:44 <AnMaster> ?
23:07:48 <KingOfKarlsruhe> heheh
23:07:52 <AnMaster> no more highlights pleas
23:07:55 <AnMaster> please*
23:08:00 * AnMaster is heading to bed
23:08:01 <AnMaster> night
23:08:07 <KingOfKarlsruhe> gn8
23:12:35 <psygnisfive> anmaster
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23:14:19 <tusho> a
23:14:24 <psygnisfive> b
23:14:27 <tusho> c
23:14:37 <psygnisfive> ß
23:14:45 <tusho> AnMaster:
23:14:47 <tusho> you are telling a bot
23:14:49 <tusho> not to highlight you
23:14:53 <psygnisfive> :)
23:22:00 <KingOfKarlsruhe> optbot: <p style="font-family : sans-serif;"><![CDATA[ Hello ]]></p>
23:22:00 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: but i'm not sure, it's not signed
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23:32:17 <dogface> I wonder if I could talk the way tusho does. Seems rather difficult, pressing enter at all the right times. :-)
23:32:31 <tusho> dogface: just type what you want
23:32:35 <tusho> and press enter at the end of a thought
23:32:38 <tusho> then think about the next line
23:32:41 <tusho> don't plan too much in advance.
23:32:42 <tusho> :D
23:32:46 <dogface> Okay, sounds easy enough.
23:32:54 <dogface> Do I actually have to say anything of significance?
23:33:00 <dogface> (Am I doing it right?)
23:33:00 <tusho> Not really, but a topic might help.
23:33:02 <tusho> how about leopards
23:33:09 <dogface> Hmm, leopards.
23:33:13 <tusho> and kind of, but my style kind of lends itself to punctuation-minimalism
23:33:21 <tusho> due to it not really having well-defined sentences
23:33:31 * dogface nods
23:33:44 <dogface> Ooh, that leopard looks cute.
23:34:04 <dogface> I'll take this time to mention, as I have at least twice before, that dogs are more closely related to bears than cats.
23:34:29 <dogface> That seemed too long. I hope I'm not doing anything wrong. :-P
23:35:09 <tusho> dogface: you're thinking about sentences before typing them :P
23:35:17 <dogface> Am not... okay, I am a bit.
23:35:20 <tusho> you should know what you're basically going to say, but figure out the actual wording on the spot
23:35:25 <tusho> :D
23:35:36 <dogface> That's what I'm doing. I think.
23:35:42 <dogface> I'll also mention that domestic dogs are a subspecies of the gray wolf, and that there was some Soviet Union project to domesticate wolves.
23:35:49 <dogface> Maybe I should learn to type faster than I can think of what to type.
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23:37:14 <dogface> Eh, I'm just not seeing very much difference between this and what I've been doing. Perhaps it's because I think about how I'm going to say it before I manage to flip over to the IRC window.
23:37:29 <dogface> Eh, I guess I can take it a bit farther.
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23:38:44 * dogface begins reading Newshounds
23:45:14 <dogface> Hmm, I think the problem is I'm afraid to split a sentence.
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2008-08-30:

00:15:04 <tusho> dogface: commas are the enemy of this style, mostly
00:15:06 <tusho> (how ironic)
00:15:10 <tusho> i mean commas to seperate two facts
00:15:15 <tusho> "I'll also mention that domestic dogs are a subspecies of the gray wolf, and that there was some Soviet Union project to domesticate wolves."
00:15:37 <dogface> Pressing the comma key was... more attractive than pressing enter.
00:15:40 <tusho> "Perhaps it's because I think about how I'm going to say it before I manage to flip over to the IRC window." <- if you stop thinking that, and stop being afraid to split sentences, you'll get my style :P
00:15:49 <tusho> dogface: but it won't get you anywhere as far as emulating me goes :D
00:16:04 <dogface> I'll have to do some sentence breaking exercises.
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00:41:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Don't care..
00:48:49 <dogface> optbot!
00:48:49 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no NE,SW, etc.
00:48:54 <dogface> optbot!
00:48:54 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Uh. . . Don't think so. . ..
00:48:58 <dogface> optbot!
00:48:58 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Nope..
00:49:11 <dogface> Well, they were getting longer for a moment, there.
00:49:14 <dogface> optbot!
00:49:14 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | mandelbrot in 6.77 secs?? impressive.
00:49:21 <dogface> Not bad.
00:53:21 <psygnisfive> dogface!
00:53:32 <dogface> psygnisfive!
00:53:37 <psygnisfive> hey.
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04:38:59 <psygnisfive> don' be quite!
04:39:08 <psygnisfive> oklopol
04:39:12 <psygnisfive> <3you
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06:41:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | yeah that's pretty funny.
07:24:38 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i'm not quite
07:24:48 <oklopol> i'm always completely or not at all
07:25:07 <oklopol> anyway i don't have the time to be loved right now, have to sleep a while
07:25:09 <psygnisfive> :)
07:25:12 <psygnisfive> haha
07:26:46 <oklopol> worked all night, so tired
07:26:53 <psygnisfive> where do you work?
07:28:53 <oklopol> we do night watchmanship, supply better term if one exists, with a small group
07:29:01 <oklopol> but just like a few times a year
07:29:13 <psygnisfive> you're a rentacop?
07:29:14 <psygnisfive> lol
07:29:32 <oklopol> i do other work too, but that's more flexible
07:29:42 <psygnisfive> hah. oklopol's a rentacop. :D
07:29:44 <psygnisfive> thats so cute
07:30:14 <oklopol> perhaps, it's not really about being a cop, more about chatting with friends in a car
07:30:35 <oklopol> and call the police if we see someone, which never happens, since this is finland
07:31:28 <oklopol> anyway sleep ->
07:33:47 <psygnisfive> night <3
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08:35:51 <Mony> hi
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12:41:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | intuition tells me it's probably a Really Hard problem, mathematically.
12:47:29 <tusho> great topic
12:48:36 <oklopol> :---)
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13:14:23 <tusho> hmm
13:14:31 <tusho> since optbot came here, this channel has been thriving XD
13:14:31 <optbot> tusho: and similar
13:14:40 <tusho> optbot: yes.
13:14:40 <optbot> tusho: Kittens
13:14:43 <tusho> optbot: Yum.
13:14:44 <optbot> tusho: very nice writeup
13:14:48 <tusho> optbot: Thanks.
13:14:48 <optbot> tusho: latex is especially gruesome, {[]}\~ all being AltGr combinations
13:14:55 <tusho> optbot: Poor you.
13:14:55 <optbot> tusho: you can torture me by correcting my obvious mistakes ;p
13:15:03 <tusho> optbot: None so far.
13:15:03 <optbot> tusho: I'm curious, though. . . Would it be possible, or even *sane*, to implement my asm_gdt_load function via just some inline assembly?
13:15:15 <tusho> optbot: Well... assembly _can_ do anything C can...
13:15:16 <optbot> tusho: Principia Mathematica
13:15:19 <tusho> optbot: er, ok
13:15:19 <optbot> tusho: okay
13:57:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, have you updated mycology for correct SOCK yet?
13:59:01 <Deewiant> yes
13:59:16 <Deewiant> there /is/ a homepage you can check, you know :-P
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14:18:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, k
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14:23:53 <fizzie> "Thriving and similar".
14:24:52 <fizzie> Or is it "optbot and similar"?
14:24:52 <optbot> fizzie: retoki
14:25:09 <fizzie> optbot: What does "retoki" mean?
14:25:09 <optbot> fizzie: lists would work better... being mutable.
14:25:26 <fizzie> optbot: Why do you answer tusho so sane-like and talk nonsense to me?
14:25:26 <optbot> fizzie: what position?
14:25:35 <tusho> fizzie: operating hours, dude
14:25:46 <tusho> while he sleeps he puts a random nonsense bot up
14:25:49 <fizzie> Yes, but you hit the operating hours oftener.
14:25:49 <tusho> and he sleeps a LOT
14:25:54 <tusho> well yeah
14:25:56 <tusho> I created him
14:25:57 <tusho> i know when he sleeps
14:26:21 <fizzie> fungot: Have you ever been awake? Based on your output, I'd think you're in a coma or something.
14:26:21 <fungot> fizzie: but i don't care' what more specifically are you in ohio? ( or if you have more of fnord original material than the english ones do. are there ipv6-enabled dns servers?
14:26:47 <fizzie> "I'm in a coma but I don't care", heh.
14:26:47 <tusho> pretty sexy coma
14:26:48 <tusho> wait what
14:27:00 <tusho> fizzie: he does care if you're in ohio though
14:27:09 <tusho> he also wants more of the "fnord original material"
14:27:14 <tusho> original, presumably, meaning not translated into english
14:27:15 <fizzie> fungot: Well, I'm not in Ohio. I've never even been in Ohio.
14:27:15 <fungot> fizzie: scheme48 does have a few minutes? :) imagine if the contents of your structs. :-p so, i suggest that you try to actually compare the results? :) maybe its a bug in paredit last night, then!
14:27:18 <tusho> he's also curious about ipv6
14:28:36 <fizzie> Yes, he sure asks a lot of questions.
14:32:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, what fingerprints do you use now?
14:34:41 <fizzie> AnMaster: NULL, FING, STRN, SOCK and SCKE are loaded in the beginning and are fatal errors if not found. FILE is used for persistent storage and the nonsense generator, but it should work even without FILE.
14:35:22 <fizzie> But I haven't yet fixed the STRN L/R "more characters than are in the string" undefined-behaviour dependency.
14:35:55 <fizzie> Should really do that next, it's just something like N5`| before the L.
14:38:39 <fizzie> I'm not sure how sensible it is that SCKE is a fatal error since it's only used for http:// URLs, which do not even work. And I guess some people stick the SCKE extensions in their SOCK? I could just do "if SCKE fails to load, test for H anyway, and disable the http thing if it doesn't work".
14:46:01 <tusho> ELER hasn't been updated since december 2007.
14:46:02 <tusho> :\
14:46:12 <AnMaster> ELER? another fingerprint?
14:47:31 <tusho> http://geekz.co.uk/
14:47:35 <tusho> Everybody Loves Eric S. Raymond
14:47:49 <tusho> Premise: rms, torvalds and esr live in an apartment together.
14:47:53 <tusho> Hilarity ensues.
14:48:02 <tusho> ... once every 6 months ...
14:50:22 <GregorR> Hahaha
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16:24:51 <Deewiant> fizzie: what do you use NULL for?
16:28:12 * tusho is working on a nifty little thing that lets you use a google account as an openid
16:28:28 <tusho> (it never sees your password, it uses the app engine login mechanism)
16:28:42 <tusho> the app engine part just lets any web app use google accounts for authentication
16:28:47 <tusho> and then i'm building the openid on top of that
16:28:52 <tusho> but still, google accounts for any site is exciting too
16:33:05 <fizzie> Deewiant: At least in my tests FING won't swap two commands if one is unused, so I just loaded NULL at the bottom. I guess a more correct way would've been to use Z in that case (and Y to drop them), but that's the way it's written now.
16:35:06 <fizzie> (I currently do 'G'KX'P'BX to move STRN's G/P to K/B so that I can still use them while FILE is loaded on top; and an identical command to revert it. I guess I could've just used 'G'KZ'P'BZ and then 'KY'BY to unload.)
16:35:36 <Deewiant> hm, seems silly for FING to behave that way.
16:35:43 <Deewiant> but I guess it's intentional.
16:36:19 <fizzie> That's what it does on RC/Funge-98; the spec doesn't really say much. It's maybe a bit illogical, given that Z will push a reflect if "src" is empty.
16:36:35 <Deewiant> ah, "push a reflect", not "reflect".
16:36:42 <Deewiant> in that case it seems it's not intentional. :-P
16:37:22 <tusho> push a reflect? XD
16:37:38 <fizzie> Currently RC/Funge-98's X reflects if either one them is empty.
16:38:34 <fizzie> Haven't seen Mike Riley around in the last few days, there was that one clear RC/Funge-98 bug I patched that I don't even remember any more, and I was going to ask about the strange behaviour his FILE 'R' had at EOF.
16:39:02 <Deewiant> you might want to e-mail him
16:40:16 <fizzie> Actually I don't see any patched bugs. Maybe I imagined that one, since I have no idea what it could've been.
16:41:43 <fizzie> Oh, there is it; my 'diff' invocation was missing -r. His FILE 'C' only fclose()d the handle and did not set it to NULL, causing it to run out of file handles fast since fungot's nonsense-generator opens and closes two files for each phrase.
16:41:44 <fungot> fizzie: and slereah_ said it wasn't not. and i threw what i had in mind. irc wasnt designed like that, at least on my machine
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17:45:07 <funktio> does Z leave leave src as it is, or pop it? i.e., is it a copy or a move?
17:51:20 <AnMaster> funktio, in what fingerprint?
17:51:48 <funktio> AnMaster: FING
17:52:11 <AnMaster> hm...
17:52:46 <AnMaster> copy it seems
17:53:15 <funktio> ok, thanks
17:55:15 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Deewiant: At least in my tests FING won't swap two commands if one is unused, so I just loaded NULL at the bottom. I guess a more correct way would've been to use Z in that case (and Y to drop them), but that's the way it's written now.
17:55:16 <AnMaster> indeed
17:55:45 <AnMaster> according to the test Mike Riley wrote it is intended like that too
17:55:55 <Deewiant> that's awfully stupid
17:56:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you suggest? push a reflect?
17:56:19 <AnMaster> or move?
17:56:22 <AnMaster> for that situation
17:56:25 <Deewiant> a reflect, of course
17:56:40 <AnMaster> push a reflect, or reflect?
17:56:50 <Deewiant> it's like the cell stack is an infinite pile of zeroes at the bottom: the fingerprint stacks are an infinite pile of reflects
17:57:21 <funktio> I push a reflect now, but it'd be trivial to change
17:57:57 <AnMaster> well easy to change for me too
17:59:00 <AnMaster> Z pushes a reflect if the original one is empty btw
17:59:10 <AnMaster> which means it is even more weird
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18:12:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did you get my mail about SOCK replacement?
18:12:39 <AnMaster> was a few days ago
18:12:47 <AnMaster> however I thought of another thing
18:12:53 <AnMaster> wait on socket group
18:13:12 <AnMaster> to allow making a single threaded server to handle multiple sockets
18:13:28 <AnMaster> like SCKE's P, but on multiple sockets
18:13:32 <Deewiant> yeah, something like select(2)
18:13:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah, or poll() or whatever
18:14:10 <AnMaster> I use poll() not select() in cfunge currently
18:14:20 <Deewiant> yeah, I'd expect you to :-P
18:18:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why?
18:18:50 <AnMaster> it was just that poll() is easier to use IMO
18:18:50 <Deewiant> because you're like that :-P
18:18:52 <tusho> AnMaster: because it's rather typical overengineering of you
18:19:02 <AnMaster> tusho, not really, select() is messy IMO
18:19:13 <AnMaster> on linux select() is just a wrapper for poll() anyway
18:19:25 <AnMaster> on *bsd poll() is a wrappper for select() iirc
18:19:26 <AnMaster> heh
18:19:39 <AnMaster> they are rather similiar
18:19:56 <AnMaster> using kqueue or epoll would have been overengineering
18:20:16 <AnMaster> tusho: so what do you mean poll() is "overengineering"
18:20:43 <AnMaster> and what did Deewiant mean?
18:21:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I expect you to use the lowest-level interface you can find :-P
18:22:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um? on *bsd it is higher level
18:22:46 <Deewiant> I didn't know that
18:22:46 <AnMaster> and I actually wrote the code on a *bsd system
18:22:50 <AnMaster> so...
18:23:16 <AnMaster> now I hope tusho will explain himself too
18:23:16 <AnMaster> ...
18:28:04 <tusho> i'm actually just being silent to irritate you
18:28:20 <AnMaster> tusho, so I will continue to bug you to irritate you
18:28:33 <tusho> cool, i'll /ignore you if you do :D
18:28:38 <tusho> but you can't /ignore my silence!
18:28:50 <AnMaster> tusho, I either expect an explanation or a sorry
18:29:04 <AnMaster> because I see no reason why you should attack me without justifying what you say
18:29:07 <AnMaster> *shrug*
18:29:10 <tusho> i never attacked you actually
18:29:11 <tusho> :D
18:29:14 <AnMaster> <tusho> AnMaster: because it's rather typical overengineering of you
18:29:17 <AnMaster> that was an attack
18:29:18 <tusho> yes
18:29:18 <Deewiant> he's just being the troll he normally is :-P
18:29:19 <tusho> is that an attack?
18:29:20 <tusho> :P
18:29:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well probably you are right
18:29:42 <AnMaster> after all while he may be 13, I think it seems rather like 3
18:29:52 <tusho> wow, i am one smart fucking 3 year old
18:29:59 <AnMaster> at least when trolling
18:30:19 <AnMaster> of course he must be older than 3 since he actually can program and such
18:30:24 <AnMaster> but sometimes he doesn't act like it
18:30:34 <tusho> AnMaster: You mean like Theo de Raat?
18:30:37 <tusho> ICE BURN
18:30:45 <tusho> raadt, whatever
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18:32:25 <AnMaster> tusho, actually you are right there, though I think Raadt knows a bit more than you (no offence meant @ Raadt)
18:33:03 <tusho> he's programmed for like decades longer than me
18:33:06 <tusho> so no surprise :P
18:33:17 <tusho> i started programming at, uh, 8 i think
18:33:24 <tusho> though i'd done shit like html a few years before that
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18:34:44 <GregorR> VirtualBox = awesome
18:37:59 <AnMaster> tusho, when you were 5?
18:38:03 <AnMaster> 6?
18:38:12 <tusho> 7.5 or so for htmling, i think
18:38:16 <tusho> perhaps a bit later
18:38:17 <AnMaster> a few years?
18:38:22 <tusho> meh
18:38:24 <tusho> :P
18:38:25 <AnMaster> 8-7.5 = 0.5;
18:38:26 <tusho> but yeah, my first language was php :-(
18:38:31 <AnMaster> 0.5 < a few
18:38:35 <tusho> AnMaster: whatevs
18:38:37 <AnMaster> because
18:38:40 <AnMaster> 0.5 < 1
18:38:42 <AnMaster> 1 = one
18:38:45 <AnMaster> one < a few
18:38:46 <AnMaster> thus
18:38:48 <tusho> AnMaster. i may be 13.
18:38:52 <AnMaster> 0.5 < a few
18:38:53 <tusho> but i am familiar with this thing called "arithmetic"
18:38:58 <AnMaster> tusho, yep
18:39:05 <tusho> you may shut up now.
18:39:06 <AnMaster> so how is half a year == a few years
18:39:14 <tusho> because my memory is not very good, ok
18:39:17 <AnMaster> ah
18:39:18 <tusho> so i had to think about it after saying that
18:41:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but I don't know how much metadata PPM images have.
18:54:18 <GregorR> Although a metric few is definitely greater than 1, an imperial few can take any value from 0.1 to 1000.
18:55:23 <tusho> GregorR: you like weird little web things, don't you? (see: choosemyhat, extra-www)
18:55:30 <GregorR> Yes.
18:55:31 <GregorR> Yes I do.
18:55:56 <tusho> GregorR: i am making a little thing that isn't really 'funny', but it certainly is a little crazy in how it works
18:56:05 <GregorR> Fascinating.
18:56:09 <tusho> here it is:
18:56:23 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire...").
18:56:35 <tusho> with google's app engine your app can use google accounts for authentication. that's all well and good but what if I want google accounts for authentication but not use app engine? maybe there's a library I need, maybe I don't wanna use python, maybe I wanna have control over my app, etc
18:56:56 <tusho> well, this is a little app engine app that lets you do just that. you add an application, and give it a URL and you get two keys
18:57:22 <tusho> (pubkey and privkey). to login, you redirect users to http://gaccproxy.appspot.com/login?app=PUBKEY&token=TOKEN&return=URL
18:57:30 <tusho> return is just the url you want users to return to after login
18:57:43 <tusho> token is anything you want that you can uniquely identify a user short-term by
18:57:45 <tusho> ip or whatever
18:57:47 <tusho> then
18:58:02 <tusho> it gets the user to log in on app engine, and asks for deny/allow access to it to the user, etc
18:58:04 <tusho> and you get a post
18:58:08 <tusho> to the URL you entered for the app
18:58:18 <tusho> with the private key, the token, and the account details (nickname & email)
18:58:26 <tusho> you check the private key is right (this is how you know it's gaccproxy talking to you)
18:58:28 <GregorR> OK ...
18:58:33 <tusho> and then store {token=>details}
18:58:46 <tusho> THEN, when it finally gets back to the return URL, you look up the token and nab the details off
18:58:54 <tusho> it's just funny how many server roundtrips and keys you need to get it all working :D
18:58:57 <tusho> well, funny for me at least.
18:59:15 <tusho> it's certainly rather silly
18:59:32 <tusho> but useful, and i quite like silly but useful things
18:59:56 <GregorR> ... I believe my response is "Uh ... wtf?"
19:00:07 <tusho> GregorR: what is the wtf bit :D
19:00:41 <GregorR> So, it's sort of like a centralized user authentication service?
19:00:45 <tusho> kind of
19:00:51 <tusho> it just lets any web app use google accounts for authentication
19:00:58 <tusho> i'm planning to build a google account->openid bridge on top of it
19:01:10 <GregorR> OH, I see, it actually uses Google accounts.
19:01:15 <GregorR> I didn't see where that part came in :P
19:01:21 <tusho> from the user's point of view, they hit login, enter their google details (using google's handlers, i never see your password or whatever), it asks them if they want to allow it, then it puts them back to the sit
19:01:21 <tusho> e
19:01:25 <tusho> but yeah
19:01:31 <tusho> obviously, normal apps can't use google's login page
19:01:44 <tusho> but App Engine (their python web app framework/hosting service thing) lets you use it
19:02:02 <tusho> so it's an app engine app that solely lets a user login via google accounts and it reports back to your app
19:02:17 <tusho> i just thought that 1) it's a neat hack 2) the hoops needed internally to get it working were rather amusing/silly
19:02:20 <GregorR> Right.
19:02:29 <GregorR> Makes sense. What do I have to do with it?
19:02:39 <tusho> GregorR: nothing, you just like silly web stuff so :P
19:02:41 <tusho> it is possibly just my weird sense of humour kicking in :D
19:02:43 <GregorR> Heh
19:03:17 <tusho> *hacks up the last bit (an "Always allow" button)*
19:03:53 <GregorR> I have Windows XP apps running seamlessly on GNU/Linux.
19:04:00 <GregorR> (Not Wine :P )
19:04:03 <GregorR> VirtualBox = awesome.
19:04:39 <tusho> GregorR: I have Windows XP apps running seamlessly on OS X - truly seamlessly: windows on Windows (lulz) appear as windows on my os x desktop
19:04:46 <tusho> as in, there's no emulator window
19:04:47 <tusho> it's just all there
19:04:52 <GregorR> That's my point.
19:04:55 <GregorR> VirtualBox does that now.
19:04:56 <tusho> also, open windows applications appear in the dock
19:04:59 <tusho> GregorR: ah, does it?
19:04:59 <tusho> nifty
19:05:04 <GregorR> VirtualBox ripped that feature off of VMWare :P
19:05:04 <tusho> parallels had it first though ;)
19:05:07 <GregorR> Of course.
19:05:13 <tusho> parallels had it before vmware too, i think
19:05:16 <tusho> not sure
19:05:20 <GregorR> Oh, Parallels? I thought Parallels was VMWare >_>
19:05:22 <fizzie> And Wine has had it always. :p
19:05:23 <GregorR> I'm so confuddled.
19:05:26 <GregorR> Heh
19:05:37 <tusho> fizzie: All it needs to do now is run Windows applications.
19:05:42 <tusho> ICE BURN x2
19:05:57 <fizzie> It runs a couple. I think. Or so I have heard. I've played Diablo II with it. :p
19:05:57 <GregorR> Now if I can only get OS X installed in an emulator X-P
19:06:24 <tusho> GregorR: go get one of those OSx86 isos
19:06:32 <tusho> that should work in vmware, probably
19:06:36 <tusho> virtualbox probably does too much tricky stuff
19:06:43 <GregorR> tusho: I haven't found one that'll work in anything. I tried one in VMWare, but failed :(
19:06:55 <tusho> well, it's not really very work
19:06:55 <tusho> y
19:07:07 <tusho> as apple only support like, 30 pieces of hardware in total
19:07:08 <tusho> :P
19:07:10 <GregorR> Yuh, it's not like OS X runs on normal unmodified PCs.
19:07:32 -!- dogface has joined.
19:07:41 <GregorR> I wish OpenDarwin still existed. Then at least I could get binaries that would work >_>
19:08:02 <tusho> r.i.p. :P
19:08:07 <dogface> How many points do I get for connecting to an IRC server via some random Internet server via my own IRC client here?
19:08:10 <dogface> Using nc?
19:08:15 <tusho> dogface: 3.4
19:08:25 <dogface> Yay, that sounds good.
19:09:01 <tusho> dogface: if you'd written an ssh<->irc bridge then used that to shell in somewhere, then used nc from there to connect here, that'd be 7 points
19:09:16 <tusho> 8 or more points involve killing aardvarks, I'm afraid.
19:09:34 <GregorR> But not with your bare hands, you have to kill them with the power of IRC.
19:10:52 <dogface> I connected to the server with SSH, then ran nc -l -p 39528 -c "nc secret-stuff" &, then connected to the server with IRC.
19:16:19 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
19:16:27 <AnMaster> <tusho> GregorR: you like weird little web things, don't you? (see: choosemyhat, extra-www) <-- choosemyhat??
19:16:34 <tusho> AnMaster: choosemyhat.com
19:17:38 <tusho> brb
19:22:19 <AnMaster> how many dimensions does a html page have
19:24:13 <AnMaster> <GregorR> I wish OpenDarwin still existed. Then at least I could get binaries that would work >_>
19:24:16 <AnMaster> it doesn't?
19:24:20 <AnMaster> wtf
19:24:26 <AnMaster> it still must be open source
19:24:31 <AnMaster> because they reuse code from such
19:24:35 <AnMaster> right?
19:25:31 <dogface> What's the regex escape thing for a non-whitespace character? \S?
19:25:38 <GregorR> AnMaster: But not enough to build an OS out of.
19:25:50 <AnMaster> hrrm true
19:33:33 <fizzie> Neh, it is rather less fun to edit old Befunge code than to write new. I'm having trouble fitting in all these "is this string long enough to do 5L on it" length tests without allocating silly-looking extra lines.
19:46:48 <AnMaster> dogface, depends on dialect
19:46:57 <AnMaster> in some it is \w iirc
19:47:05 <AnMaster> and \s for space
19:47:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, see you learn it!
19:48:09 <AnMaster> hum I just got an idea
19:48:16 <Deewiant> dogface: [^ \t\r\n\f] :-P
19:48:43 <dogface> You know, I think [^ ] would be sufficient.
19:49:17 <AnMaster> I think using w to do string matching, would be the fastest way in befunge, because you could then take a char in the middle, compare it, if it is the same go forward, if it is less take the path that handles commands that begin in lower chars and if it is more take the other ones
19:49:19 <AnMaster> one*
19:49:41 <AnMaster> could be tricky to write
19:49:50 <funktio> where is \w equivalent to non-whitespace?
19:50:05 <AnMaster> funktio, not sure, I may remember wrong
19:50:05 * dogface suddenly realizes that he can use cat to concatenate
19:50:10 <AnMaster> I tend to use POSIX regex
19:50:22 <AnMaster> so that means no \w or \s last I checked
19:50:23 <funktio> \w is usually [a-zA-Z_0-9], I think
19:50:32 <AnMaster> ah maybe
19:50:48 <AnMaster> dogface, that is what it is made for
19:51:02 <AnMaster> it is what cat stands for
19:51:13 <AnMaster> it is infact almost the only use of cat
19:51:25 <fizzie> At least there's ] so I can merge these 'v' and '^' that want to occupy the same space.
19:51:30 <dogface> I've never seen it used elsewise. :-P
19:51:39 <AnMaster> in scripts cat used for anything else than to concatenate two files == bad idea
19:51:59 <AnMaster> cat foo | grep bar is a common beginner mistake for example
19:52:02 <AnMaster> grep bar foo
19:52:05 <AnMaster> is the correct way
19:52:18 <fizzie> There's the Useless Use of 'cat' award thing.
19:52:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, was just going to mention that
19:52:41 <funktio> I often use `cat file.txt` in Perl to read a file
19:52:44 <AnMaster> <greybot> Useless Use of Cat (cat foo | grep bar). See http://partmaps.org/era/unix/award.html
19:52:49 <AnMaster> bot from #bash btw
19:52:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: how about "cat foo >> bar"
19:53:11 <Deewiant> that's not concatenating two files, strictly speaking :-P
19:53:16 <tusho> hehe those kill -9 haters will totally, er, hate me
19:53:23 <tusho> I use kill -9 all the time :)
19:53:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm, that is concatenating, kind of
19:53:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you are sure it is bash?
19:53:41 <AnMaster> or?
19:53:47 <Deewiant> of course, that's even sh
19:53:55 <fizzie> Still, I tend to cat a lot in use-once-only pipelines; it somehow goes more naturally when starting with cat, plus you can then stick more items in the pipeline without having to change it.
19:53:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no I mean the shell you want to run the command it
19:53:59 <AnMaster> in*
19:54:07 <AnMaster> because I can replace it with a better one in bash I think
19:54:12 <AnMaster> but that isn't portable
19:54:16 <AnMaster> something like
19:54:22 <AnMaster> echo >> bar < foo
19:54:26 <AnMaster> I *think*
19:54:28 <AnMaster> actually no
19:54:29 <fizzie> When you do "cat foo | grep bar" it's easier to amend that to "cat foo | sed ... | grep bar"; with "grep bar foo" you need to actually think to turn it to "sed ... foo | grep bar".
19:54:31 <AnMaster> won't work
19:54:42 <AnMaster> err
19:54:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, sed | grep is probably wrong too
19:54:57 <AnMaster> you can do it all in sed
19:55:00 <AnMaster> or you may want awk
19:55:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what happened to the unix philosophy of one tool for one job
19:55:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, so sed | grep or awk | grep or sed | awk is just plain wrong
19:55:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is still there
19:55:37 <AnMaster> but
19:55:41 <AnMaster> sed does have grepping
19:55:41 <tusho> Deewiant: it wasn't optimized enough
19:55:43 <fizzie> Well, it was just an example. And I do what it's simpler to write, not what uses less processes, when trying to write a use-once pipeline.
19:55:43 <tusho> :)
19:55:53 <AnMaster> /foo/s/bar/quux/
19:55:59 <Deewiant> tusho: I bet that grep is probably faster for searching than sed, anyway
19:56:01 <AnMaster> will replace bar with quux on any line containing foo
19:56:03 <AnMaster> I think
19:56:06 <AnMaster> yes it would
19:56:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why wear out the keyboard when you don't have to? ;P
19:56:37 <Deewiant> especially if you use grep -F or such
19:56:41 <fizzie> That doesn't do the same thing, though.
19:57:02 <fizzie> You want to first do s/bar/quux/ and then print only lines that _still_ contain foo.
19:57:11 <funktio> /foo/ && s/bar/quux/  # in Perl
19:57:17 <fizzie> Personally I would have to peek at the sed man page for that.
19:57:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: it's more typing to change grep -> sed compared to just "cat foo | grep baz | bar" -> "cat foo | grep baz | sed qux | bar"
19:57:37 <AnMaster> another horrible thing I see is: cat foo | grep bar | awk '{ print $3 }'
19:57:41 <AnMaster> now that is just horrible
19:57:43 <fizzie> On the other hand, I can just write "sed s/bar/quux/ | grep foo" and any monkey will understand what that does.
19:57:51 <AnMaster> awk '/bar/{ print $3 }' foo
19:57:57 <AnMaster> is the "right" way
19:58:04 <fizzie> No, it's your way. :p
19:58:11 <Deewiant> I think it'd be "sed 'N; s/bar/quux; /foo/P;'" or something
19:58:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, in a script UUOC or similiar is bad
19:58:26 <Deewiant> possibly some pointless or missing semicolons there
19:59:11 <AnMaster> well it is true, doing it in that order I would probably just use awk
20:00:19 <AnMaster> or: cat foo | sort -n | uniq
20:00:24 <AnMaster> sort -nd foo
20:00:32 <AnMaster> assuming you don't want some other flags uniq provides
20:00:35 <AnMaster> like -d or -c
20:00:43 <AnMaster> err
20:00:45 <AnMaster> -nu
20:00:46 <AnMaster> not -nd
20:00:47 <fizzie> There's also the fact that when writing a pipeline, I tend to construct it one operation at a time. I don't know about scripts, since I usually just write Perl at that point.
20:00:48 <AnMaster> typo
20:01:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, I have written an IRC bot in bash unless you didn't know
20:01:08 <AnMaster> modular one
20:01:14 <fizzie> Yes, you tend to mention it. :p
20:01:19 <AnMaster> true
20:01:29 <fizzie> Have I mentioned the one I did in Funge-98?-)
20:01:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, I know it
20:01:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and how does it's randomness generator work
20:01:53 <AnMaster> ^help
20:01:53 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
20:02:00 <AnMaster> fungot?
20:02:01 <fungot> AnMaster: any actionscript object could be wrapped in a dynamic-wind exit thunk?
20:02:04 <fizzie> Oh, ^bool is missing from the help.
20:02:10 <AnMaster> ^bool
20:02:10 <fungot> Yes.
20:02:12 <AnMaster> ^bool
20:02:12 <fungot> Yes.
20:02:14 <AnMaster> um
20:02:18 <AnMaster> ^bool false
20:02:22 <AnMaster> eh?
20:02:24 <fizzie> It's only "^bool".
20:02:24 <tusho> ^bool
20:02:25 <fungot> Yes.
20:02:27 <tusho> ^bool
20:02:27 <fungot> No.
20:02:34 <fizzie> fungot's a "yes" man.
20:02:35 <fungot> fizzie: ( quote cons) evaluates to the list." at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 14194 with " nantampukmas" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 314
20:02:36 <AnMaster> randomness generator?
20:02:54 <fizzie> oklopol wanted a single bit; a single bit is what he got.
20:02:54 <AnMaster> err
20:02:58 <AnMaster> why those spaces
20:03:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, ^
20:03:05 <AnMaster> at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 314
20:03:09 <tusho> AnMaster: fizzie just talked 3 seconds ago
20:03:09 <AnMaster> some spaces too much there
20:03:13 <tusho> you do not have to highlight it.
20:03:19 <AnMaster> tusho, really?
20:03:22 <AnMaster> tusho, are you sure?
20:03:25 <AnMaster> tusho, ^
20:03:28 <tusho> /ignore AnMaster
20:03:47 <AnMaster> tusho:enable_humor().
20:03:56 <fizzie> AnMaster: Because my Funge-98 ported tokens-to-text routine does not have all the features the prototype had.
20:04:08 <tusho> AnMaster: AnMaster:enable_annoyance(). Oh wait, it's already on.
20:04:33 <fizzie> Currently it just adds a " " before each word-like word.
20:04:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, I see, how does it work though?
20:04:59 <fizzie> That is also why "( quote cons)" and not "(quote cons)".
20:05:26 <fizzie> The text generation or what? And how much detail do you want? The source is of course available, too. :p
20:05:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, forgot the link
20:06:10 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt if I remember correctly.
20:06:11 <fungot> fizzie: but they took a survey and found that of the original befunge-93 ( pressey, 1998) which is in r5rs... and it's fnord est here, so i don't know how to use syntax-rules instead because it's simpler to write it
20:06:29 <fizzie> Whoa? Befunge-93 is in R5RS Scheme?
20:06:35 <fizzie> Why haven't I heard of this before.
20:06:50 <fizzie> fungot: Are you quite sure?
20:06:50 <fungot> fizzie: i think a similar argument could be that strict too, but i'm not
20:07:03 <Deewiant> ah, he was just kidding
20:07:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, same loader as before?
20:08:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, why all the fnord?
20:08:56 <AnMaster> also... "original befunge-93 (pressey, 1998)" looks like someone quoted my befunge-108 draft and then messed up years (should be 1993...)
20:08:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: I kept only words that occurred >1 times in the source text, turned all others to UNK tokens; and the Funge-98 code maps UNK to fnord. (Sorry for those who are seeing this explanation the third or fourth time.)
20:09:04 * AnMaster checks bibtex file
20:09:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok what about a factoid database next
20:09:38 <AnMaster> maybe we need a SQL fingerprint XD
20:09:50 * AnMaster lols at the thought
20:10:22 <AnMaster> base would be SQL, then SQLI would be sqlite for example, SQPS postgre sql, SQMY mysql and so on
20:10:30 <AnMaster> what do you think?
20:10:41 <tusho> AnMaster: I think that'll be even less useful than TRDS.
20:10:50 <AnMaster> I would probably only implement SQLI
20:11:26 <fizzie> I think it was fungot who quoted wrong; 4-grams mean 3 words of context, which means it only saw "opening parenthesis, 'pressey', comma", and that is commonly followed by 1998, since there are many lines talking about Funge-98.
20:11:27 <fungot> fizzie: just for boys? :)
20:12:18 <fizzie> fungot: No, Befunge's not just for boys.
20:12:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, hum?
20:12:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the link to the loader again?
20:13:03 <fizzie> Uh, I think it's something like fungot-load-freenode.b98.txt in the same URL.
20:13:20 <AnMaster> k
20:13:22 <fizzie> Same directory, I mean.
20:13:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, does that bot handle STRN?
20:13:48 <fizzie> You mean your take of the STRN L/R? No. I'm currently fixing it to do that.
20:13:55 <AnMaster> ah ok
20:14:00 * AnMaster waits with wget
20:14:19 <fizzie> There are only two instances of L to fix, I think, and then some testing.
20:19:27 <fizzie> It seems to work now. I didn't fix the http:// handler since that's disabled anyway, as it currently just ends after the H hostname lookup.
20:19:47 <fizzie> Of course I just tested it with RC/Funge-98 only.
20:22:01 <fizzie> ^reload
20:22:02 <fungot> Reloaded.
20:22:19 <fizzie> fungot: Do you feel any different now?
20:22:20 <fungot> fizzie: so don't complain about lyx to text, will need to grasp to become a good programmer, it's the best
20:23:16 <fizzie> fungot: LyX as in the LaTeX editor? I didn't really like it.
20:23:16 <fungot> fizzie: i just implemented fisher-yates shuffler procedure. shuffle-vector! shuffle-string!, and cond switching irssi windows?!? to fnord fnord
20:24:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, I love LyX
20:24:37 <fizzie> Well, *you* would.
20:24:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, why do you say that?
20:24:51 <fizzie> (I don't know what that means, it just sounded like something to say.)
20:24:57 <AnMaster> hum
20:25:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, tell me when new version is up
20:26:02 <fizzie> It should be there... now. (And I guess I'm just used to writing LaTeX without any help.)
20:29:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, what does fungot use the owner thingy for?
20:29:37 <fungot> AnMaster: waiting for another ant to do something, your pointer is cast to the wrong thing here, because two fnord were cheaper than one ultra fast one. it preserves every step in the compilation hierarchy can be overriden with new words; one could, i'd have to consider this as an example
20:29:56 <AnMaster> "Bot owner prefix"
20:30:15 -!- funnygot has joined.
20:30:19 <AnMaster> there it is
20:30:27 <AnMaster> %help
20:30:28 <funnygot> %<lang> <code>; %def <command> <lang> <code>; %show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; %str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
20:30:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, feel free to test it
20:30:47 <AnMaster> it is in a chroot
20:31:21 <AnMaster> actually
20:31:24 <AnMaster> let me fix a ulimit
20:31:25 -!- funnygot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:31:26 <fizzie> The PRIVMSG sender nick!user@host prefix is checked against the owner prefix for the "code", "reload" and... maybe some other command too. Yes, "save" also.
20:31:55 <AnMaster> what does save do?
20:31:59 -!- funnygot has joined.
20:32:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, the %help doesn't mention those commands
20:32:16 <fizzie> Yes, because they work for the owner only.
20:32:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, raw too?
20:32:31 <fizzie> Oh, right, that too.
20:32:45 <AnMaster> anyway what commands are there for owners
20:32:50 <AnMaster> %reload
20:32:51 <funnygot> Reloaded.
20:32:56 <AnMaster> %help
20:32:56 <fizzie> And "save" stores the 10 "str" strings and all defined commands to the state file, "data/fungot.dat" or whatever it was.
20:32:57 <funnygot> %<lang> <code>; %def <command> <lang> <code>; %show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; %str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
20:32:57 <fungot> fizzie: where is the base case. what sorts of startup times do you need
20:33:14 <AnMaster> ^reload
20:33:19 <AnMaster> hm interesting
20:33:21 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:33:29 <AnMaster> %öööö
20:33:59 -!- tusho has joined.
20:34:04 <fizzie> The babble-generator should handle gracefully the case where the language model files it needs do not exist; so funnygot should not mind if someone mentions its name.
20:34:10 <fizzie> Haven't tested that, though.
20:34:51 <AnMaster> funnygot?
20:34:53 <AnMaster> ¤help
20:34:55 <AnMaster> %help
20:34:56 <funnygot> %<lang> <code>; %def <command> <lang> <code>; %show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; %str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
20:34:59 <AnMaster> hm true
20:35:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, how are those created?
20:35:08 <tusho> funnygot: bla bla.
20:35:13 <AnMaster> where are the scripts to do so
20:35:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, what does code command do?
20:35:34 <fizzie> Er, you need a Perl script and a C++ proggie to do it, and the Perl script handles my IRC log format only. I haven't put them anywhere, at least yet.
20:35:41 <tusho> code isn't a command, AnMaster
20:35:48 <AnMaster> <fizzie> The PRIVMSG sender nick!user@host prefix is checked against the owner prefix for the "code", "reload" and... maybe some other command too. Yes, "save" also.
20:35:52 <AnMaster> seems like it is?
20:36:11 <tusho> %commansd
20:36:13 <tusho> %commands
20:36:14 <fizzie> "code" appends something like "0R" to the argument, stores it somewhere, and jumps there with SUBR.
20:36:21 <tusho> fizzie: yes, but the thing in the help there
20:36:22 <tusho> wasn't code
20:36:25 <fizzie> It's pretty easy to mess things up with.
20:36:26 <tusho> that was saying what the code param could be
20:36:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, I can imagine
20:36:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, unless you are the author
20:37:01 <AnMaster> same reason why I mark eval module of envbot as "for debugging only"
20:37:12 <fizzie> About the only thing I have used it for is "^code 000f-p" to reset the babble-generator counter to make fungot talk to me again.
20:37:14 <fungot> fizzie: 11926: that's like taking people for granted
20:37:15 <AnMaster> and put it in a non-standard place
20:37:35 <AnMaster> babble-generator counter?
20:37:37 <AnMaster> what does that do
20:37:40 <fizzie> fungot: Well, you're not exactly "people".
20:37:41 <fungot> fizzie: when i mentioned locales and character sets. maybe thats what them meant by experimental eh? " steppin' out", if you want mathematical variables, you probably won't have those same teachers then, will you teach face-to-face?
20:37:55 <fizzie> AnMaster: It only replies four times consecutively to any one nick. That's to prevent infinite loops with optbot.
20:37:55 <optbot> fizzie: i'd use php :)
20:37:58 <fizzie> ^echo optbot
20:37:58 <optbot> fizzie: :-)
20:37:58 <tusho> those were lyrics
20:37:58 <fungot> optbot optbot
20:37:58 <optbot> fungot: ~exec while self.i<3: self.i=self.i+1;self.raw("topic #esoteric :"+self.topic[self.i:self.i+5]);time.sleep(0.7)
20:38:00 <fungot> optbot: t(x) x 3. there should be
20:38:01 <optbot> fungot: right?
20:38:01 <fungot> optbot: fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ test.html here? i was wondering how ofter dynenv are cloned.... or even in the presence of dynamic-wind?
20:38:01 <optbot> fungot: Just the fractional part?
20:38:02 <fungot> optbot: sarahbot, yow she says some random thing then? :) forgot? i read something from each in cml.
20:38:02 <optbot> fungot: even "where the memory pointer points" and "where the IP is" are global state, so a better definition is needed
20:38:03 <fungot> optbot: what would you have scheme", " a christmas fnord?) guitar riffs this band is metal)." fnord dixon either, but it doesn't feel very accurate. ' assembly' is a macro and you were waiting for someone to create a dogma and raise a bunch of
20:38:03 <optbot> fungot: it's not a funge interp
20:38:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah right
20:38:09 <fizzie> There it stops.
20:38:28 <AnMaster> lol
20:38:41 <tusho> "FUNGOT: It's not a funge interp."
20:38:42 <AnMaster> doesn't optbot have such a protection?
20:38:42 <optbot> AnMaster: what's stake mean there?
20:38:45 <tusho> AnMaster: no.
20:38:50 <tusho> optbot:
20:38:50 <AnMaster> and who is "sarahbot"?
20:38:50 <optbot> tusho: thats not an explanation.
20:38:50 <tusho> optbot:
20:38:51 <optbot> tusho: "what does your name mean?" "your mom"/"what does YOUR name mean"/"it's my name"/"don't wear it out"/"I'm borderline autistic"/"The last person to ask that is now fashioned into boots"
20:38:51 <tusho> optbot:
20:38:51 <tusho> optbot:
20:38:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, ?
20:38:51 <optbot> tusho: I do on different channels
20:38:52 <optbot> tusho: no
20:38:52 <tusho> optbot:
20:38:52 <optbot> tusho: the Game class was trivial to make
20:38:52 <tusho> optbot:
20:38:53 <optbot> tusho: $ ./ccbi --help
20:38:53 <tusho> optbot:
20:38:54 <optbot> tusho: though it must be said...
20:38:56 <tusho> etc
20:39:01 <AnMaster> tusho, bad
20:39:07 <tusho> AnMaster: nobody gives a shit :)
20:39:13 <fizzie> AnMaster: Sarahbot's on freenode #scheme. Or at least was there, haven't been on the channel lately.
20:39:34 <fizzie> AnMaster: The language model is built from my logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams.
20:39:39 <tusho> i stopped visiting #scheme 'cause of rihistradah or whatever :D
20:39:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, hah
20:39:51 <AnMaster> nice choice
20:40:01 <fizzie> riastradh is closer, I think. He was scary.
20:40:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, make the language model generator available please :D
20:40:19 <AnMaster> using some simple log format
20:40:30 <AnMaster> like <nick> text
20:40:30 <tusho> whenever you said anything he'd immediately say "What are you trying to do?????" then if you told him he'd keep asking until you gave him an in-the-large review of your entire application model
20:40:32 <AnMaster> with no timestamps
20:40:35 <tusho> and then he'd fall silent and refuse to help you
20:40:47 <AnMaster> then I could use sed to filter to that and pass it to stdin of the model generator
20:40:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, good idea?
20:41:00 <tusho> AnMaster: why can't you just say "it would be appreciated if you released it"
20:41:05 <tusho> instead of "do X please", it's quite rude
20:41:26 <AnMaster> tusho, well omitting "please" would be ruder
20:41:45 <tusho> yes, but it's still quite annoying semi-demanding stuff all the time
20:42:09 <fizzie> "Little is known about Riastradh. He is a Mac user. He lives with three cats and at least one snake. He probably is male. He is very secretive about his life." http://community.schemewiki.org/?Riastradh
20:42:23 <AnMaster> tusho, that is due to coding in imperative languages
20:42:42 <fizzie> I think the "new cat moves around" quote fungot said at one time was a Riastradh quote, possibly.
20:42:43 <fungot> fizzie: you are not sherlock holmes. run the arrows in drscheme, ( first ( second b)) 2)
20:42:55 <tusho> AnMaster: *g*
20:42:59 <fizzie> I think that was a criticism.
20:43:16 <tusho> hmm riastradh owns #scheme?
20:43:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm will it handle non-ascii data?
20:43:20 <tusho> heh.
20:43:24 <AnMaster> for example utf8 logs
20:43:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, i and o in my interpreter will load them as bytes still, not trying to handle unicode at all
20:44:06 <AnMaster> same for FILE
20:44:17 <tusho> # He is a hyper-intelligent 12 yearold protected by the FBI, CIA and former KGB. <-- Weird, Riastradh is me a few days ago.
20:44:20 <fizzie> It depends on your definition of "handle". I don't think it will mess those up; Perl usually just does bytes unless you ask otherwise.
20:44:33 <tusho> now i'm a hyper-intelligent 13 year old protected by the FBI, CIA and KGB.
20:44:33 <tusho> :)
20:44:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, but will it find word limits and such
20:45:13 <fizzie> Well, I wouldn't count on that. The tokenizing is done with Perl, so it's probably just a matter of sticking "utf8" in there somewhere.
20:45:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway I got something like 1-1.2 GB logs when uncompressed
20:45:57 <AnMaster> they compress well
20:46:02 <AnMaster> so they all fit on one archive cd
20:46:15 <fizzie> It doesn't really do anything well, it's just that getting confused just means more fnords since unique words are removed.
20:46:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, so should I feed 1.2 GB or whatever of logs into it, mixed English and Swedish?
20:47:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is once you either release the app, or specs for the format
20:47:14 <tusho> AnMaster: if you enjoy it using up like 3498573894573894579345mb of ram whenever you try and generate nonsense
20:47:15 <tusho> I imagine
20:47:26 <AnMaster> tusho, haha
20:47:27 <fizzie> Well, it doesn't really use any memory when generating.
20:47:33 <fizzie> There's just a lot of seeking around in a file.
20:47:49 <AnMaster> hm
20:47:57 <tusho> fizzie: I assume the file will be like 500gb?
20:47:57 <AnMaster> zlib filter for FILE
20:48:03 <AnMaster> FILZ
20:48:05 <AnMaster> XD
20:48:06 <fizzie> The file will be quite large, yes.
20:48:21 <AnMaster> could create a zlib filtered FILE I guess
20:48:28 <AnMaster> zlib compression is seekable right?
20:48:51 <AnMaster> anyway probably a bad idea
20:48:56 <AnMaster> I will just go with #esoteric log
20:49:14 <fizzie> The language model file fungot's using is 200 megabytes, and I trained it with something like ~120 megs of logs.
20:49:15 <fungot> fizzie: i remember a post a while back. he made our vision spectrum inferior to his." clairvoyance rocks. only the client is sophisticated. :p
20:49:26 <tusho> Clairvoyance rocks!
20:49:54 <tusho> Mmph. Firefox, why is your default sans-serif font Arial?
20:49:55 <tusho> You pig.
20:49:59 * tusho changes to Helvetica
20:50:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, ugh
20:50:26 <AnMaster> I don't have that much disk space
20:50:38 <fizzie> It might not handle very large logs well, since it can only use 7 bits in each byte, so some fields only have 21 bits of storage space.
20:50:49 <tusho> AnMaster: It's storing relations between all the words and stuff. Did you perhaps expect it to be smaller?
20:51:29 <AnMaster> true I can see the issue
20:51:47 <fizzie> And the C++ language model building does keep the unpruned ngram model in memory while generating it, in a really unoptimal tree-like structure involving STL containers which probably adds quite a lot of overhead. I think it was somewhere around 2-3 gigabytes of memory when I built the current 4-gram model. Maybe. Didn't keep statistics.
20:51:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, ideas: module loading at runtime, allow modules to register help items, module unloading, module dependencies
20:51:54 <AnMaster> XD
20:52:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, I got 1.5 GB RAM only
20:52:27 <AnMaster> so...
20:52:37 <AnMaster> not really an option for me
20:52:38 <fizzie> Just add swap as needed. :p
20:52:42 * tusho only has 1gb of ram, but I am hopefully gonna upgrade that to 2gb soon
20:52:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, 1.5 GB swap
20:52:47 <AnMaster> and low on disk space
20:52:59 <AnMaster> bbiab
20:53:05 <tusho> though admittedly, mostly I get cpu problems
20:53:09 <tusho> and i have 2.4ghz dual core, so
20:53:16 <fizzie> Well, this box has 2G of ram and 2G of swap, and I think it had to swap a bit when building that model. Maybe it was <2G when building the model.
20:53:46 <fizzie> The cluster nodes at work have 16G of RAM, I think; I guess I could run it there if I ever feel like feeding it more logs.
20:55:21 <fizzie> Usually at least one of them is idle, anyway.
20:57:30 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:00:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, what would the boss say?
21:00:21 <tusho> YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
21:00:24 <tusho> GAccProxy is done
21:00:35 <tusho> *deploys, bitches*
21:00:44 <fizzie> Probably not much. It's a university, it's not as if we're expected to do anything sensible.
21:02:28 <fizzie> If you _really_ want to try it, you need to first run http://zem.fi/~fis/logs2tokens.pl.txt (just ./logs2tokens.pl logfile1 logfile2) and it will generate the files "tokens.txt" (list of tokens) and "data.dat" (the log data converted to those tokens) in the current directory.
21:03:10 <fizzie> Oh, and it won't work unless your "int" is 32 bits, since it uses the Perl 'pack' function argument that writes 'int'-sized numbers, while the C++ code reads them as four-byte integers.
21:04:07 <fizzie> You'll probably need to change that one regexp there to match your log file format; currently it expects something like "[timestamp] <nick> text".
21:04:33 <fizzie> (Where [timestamp] is a timestamp literally surrounded by []s, not an optional timestamp.)
21:04:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm on x86_64
21:04:58 <AnMaster> so int is 32-bit yes
21:05:03 <AnMaster> though long isn'ty
21:05:05 <AnMaster> isn't*
21:05:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, and where is the C++ bit?
21:05:59 <fizzie> And then you'll need to compile and run http://zem.fi/~fis/buildlm.cc.txt -- set the maxorder constant to some sensible value before compiling -- which will reads "tokens.txt" and "data.dat" in current directory, and write "model.bin" and "tokens.bin" in the current dir.
21:06:41 <fizzie> Then just put those files so that the bot can read them -- for some reason it reads them from the current directory, unlike the 'fungot.dat' state file -- and you should be done.
21:06:42 <fungot> fizzie: tell me for the document which has my name. googling `riastradh' brings up a good point. thats one thing i wish that was enough for me
21:07:17 <fizzie> All this is not very user-friendly, but it really isn't supposed to be.
21:09:58 <tusho> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
21:10:03 <tusho> GAccProxy has bug...
21:12:05 <fizzie> When you're done with that, read http://www.cis.hut.fi/vsiivola/papers/es05_vg.pdf and implement it in the C++ code. Vesa sits in the room next to me, and I was originally thinking of using their code, but it was too complicated-looking to modify to generate the ngram tree in such a way that it's easier to use for text generation.
21:12:44 <fizzie> Besides, I know more about the acoustic side of our (CIS) recognizer than the language modelling side.
21:12:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, will try it tomorrow
21:13:18 <AnMaster> tusho, wtf is GAccProxy?
21:13:33 <tusho> AnMaster: The google-account-login-anywhere thing I'm making.
21:13:37 <fizzie> And will you implement the n-gram model growing, too? If I blink my eyelashes all pretty-like?
21:13:41 <tusho> Remember?
21:13:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, and wtf is CIS and so on??
21:14:08 <AnMaster> well bugs happen
21:14:11 <AnMaster> in all software
21:14:14 <tusho> Yes, of course.
21:14:18 <tusho> But it was a really silly one.
21:14:21 <tusho> I just didn't notice until production
21:14:26 <tusho> since it's OK in the dev environment
21:14:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is n-gram?
21:14:26 <fizzie> The computer and information science and whatnot department in our university-thing.
21:14:39 <fizzie> N-tuple of words.
21:14:43 <AnMaster> ah
21:14:57 <fizzie> In this case, anyway.
21:15:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, I know what a n-tuple is... but the rest went over my head
21:15:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I don't code C++
21:15:28 <AnMaster> C and erlang yes
21:15:30 <AnMaster> but not C++
21:15:46 <tusho> AnMaster: hmm, wow, you've only said that like 50 times.
21:15:55 <tusho> in the past week.
21:15:59 <tusho> i think fizzie might be catching on :)
21:16:01 <AnMaster> tusho, obviously fizzie didn't know
21:16:07 <AnMaster> "<fizzie> When you're done with that, read http://www.cis.hut.fi/vsiivola/papers/es05_vg.pdf and implement it in the C++ code."
21:16:14 <tusho> It was a joke, obviously.
21:16:20 <tusho> He wants to use the fancy model but is too lazy to do it.
21:16:21 <AnMaster> tusho, yes
21:16:33 <AnMaster> tusho, but it was a meta-joke to pretend to not understand it
21:16:39 <tusho> AnMaster: Ah - you mean a cop out
21:16:44 <AnMaster> tusho, um what?
21:16:51 <tusho> "Actually, _I_ was making the joke all along! ha!"
21:16:55 <fizzie> I don't feel like writing it myself, especially since I'm not really sure it would really improve on the nonsense-generating abilities of the bot. I mean, they only evaluate it for speech recognition, not nonsense.
21:17:24 <fizzie> fungot: Say something that doesn't make sense.
21:17:24 <fungot> fizzie: then it'll be a turing tarpit.
21:17:59 <tusho> fungot: ITYM "touring tarpit"
21:18:01 <fungot> tusho: psygnisfive is also trivial as we can see
21:18:06 <tusho> agreed with thato ne
21:18:08 <tusho> :D
21:18:08 <AnMaster> tusho, you would understand me better if you assume that I decide to take stuff serious as a joke
21:18:16 <AnMaster> maybe worth thinking about in the future
21:18:22 <tusho> AnMaster: i know someone else who does that, he's just as annoying.
21:18:30 <psygnisfive> what?
21:18:36 <tusho> psygnisfive: fungot considers you trivial
21:18:36 <AnMaster> tusho, you mean yourself?
21:18:36 <fungot> tusho: ok. i haven't been around since what, the trivia game
21:18:44 <tusho> <fungot> tusho: psygnisfive is also trivial as we can see
21:18:45 <fungot> tusho: ( even though gambit is also a programming language... as it's a great deal of redundant information. _what_ says ' wrong number of arguments
21:19:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm about 4 byte integers...
21:19:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, will the irc bot handle non-4 byte cells?
21:19:35 <AnMaster> mine are 8 bytes by defaylt
21:19:37 <AnMaster> default*
21:19:47 <fizzie> I don't see any reason why it shouldn't.
21:20:00 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:20:06 <fizzie> I don't think it'll use any numbers much greater than ~2000, though.
21:20:25 <fizzie> Uh, sorry; the file-seeking-around addresses are large.
21:20:41 <fizzie> And it generates something like 24-bit random numbers at one point, to pick the next word.
21:20:51 <fizzie> As long as your cells aren't smaller than that, it shouldn't mind.
21:21:30 <fizzie> (It's approximately 12 iterations of 4* followed by a ? adding either 0, 1, 2 or 3 to the number.)
21:21:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, 24 bits of fair random?
21:21:48 <AnMaster> well cfunge use random() so probably not that good
21:22:11 <fizzie> It's not especially bad either.
21:22:21 <AnMaster> but question is, assuming a perfectly random ? instruction, is the randomness of your numbers also perfect?
21:22:31 <AnMaster> I think using a spanning tree of ? would make sure that
21:22:56 <AnMaster> where the path to selecting every number pass through the same number of ?
21:22:59 <fizzie> I don't see why my numbers would be bad, since I basically use that ? to decide two bits of the number, then multiply by 4.
21:23:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, that means two bits and multiply by four? uh?
21:23:52 <AnMaster> oh I think I see
21:24:09 <fizzie> The 4* means <<2; then it adds another two-bit value and iterates.
21:24:17 <AnMaster> right
21:25:30 <fizzie> There's also other place where it generates a random number in [0, 15] with a sequence of "? pushing either 0, 4, 8 or c" followed by "? pushing either 0, 1, 2 or 3" and a +. That pretty much a loop-unrolled version of two iterations.
21:26:02 <fizzie> (That's used when deciding whether it should stop with the babbling.)
21:28:29 <AnMaster> hm ok
21:29:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, in http://zem.fi/~fis/logs2tokens.pl.txt, where is the regex for the log
21:29:14 <AnMaster> I do know perl style regex but not perl
21:30:09 <fizzie> It's there immediately after while (<>) { chomp;
21:30:17 <AnMaster> ah
21:30:24 <fizzie> In /regex/ or next;
21:30:41 <fizzie> And the first () you have in the regex is used as the text.
21:30:47 <AnMaster> aug 30 22:30:17 <AnMaster>      ah
21:30:54 <AnMaster> seems like nick is followed by a tab
21:31:15 <AnMaster> I used xchat style log format when I changed over from xchat to ERC in order to make log parsing work the same
21:32:30 <fizzie> You could use something like /^[^\t]*\t(.*)/ if you want to rely on the tab.
21:33:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, I wouldn't
21:33:35 <fizzie> Although I guess you might want to check for <nick> there too if you had non-chat lines in there too.
21:33:35 <AnMaster> still my format is kind of wtf without years
21:33:39 <AnMaster> should probably change it
21:33:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, there are indeed non-chat ones
21:34:10 <AnMaster> aug 30 22:34:00 *       [fizzie] (n=fis@sesefras.zem.fi): Heikki Kallasjoki
21:34:26 <AnMaster> why do I log that I wonder
21:34:27 <AnMaster> ...
21:35:16 <fizzie> Personally I think I have "[yyyy-mm-dd HH:MM:SS] <*nick> text" chat lines, where * is either ' ', '+' or '@' depending on the user status (normal/voiced/op). Irssi default with a bit different timestamp.
21:36:07 <tusho> woop woop /me deploys sample gaccproxy app
21:39:17 <fizzie> If you want to know the file formats, "tokens.txt" has "token\tcount\n" lines (ordered UNK, START, END, punctuation, the rest in descending count) and data.dat has most of the log chat as a pile of 32-bit integers referring to tokens.txt lines. (I think data.dat has "num of tokens, 1, ..., 2" -- where 1 and 2 are always START and END, and ... are the other tokens -- sequences for each of the lines of the original log.)
21:42:20 <fizzie> I'm not sure I can describe model.bin and tokens.bin in ~500 characters. Not that they are very complicated either.
21:42:37 <fizzie> There's a lot of file offsets in them to make the Funge-98 code simpler.
21:43:09 <tusho> how do you make top sort by memory usage?
21:43:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:43:53 <oerjan> optbot: about 6 ounces (Troy)
21:43:53 <optbot> oerjan: Hmm. . .
21:43:58 <fizzie> At least in the procps top, 'F' gives you a meny where you can change the sort order.
21:44:05 <fizzie> s/y/u/
21:44:16 <fizzie> Ergh, didn't see that "you" there.
21:44:25 <fizzie> Now it's "gives uou a meny". Great.
21:44:36 <tusho> 9999% CPU usage, is not good is it
21:44:39 <tusho> :D
21:44:43 -!- optbot has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:45:13 <AnMaster> hm
21:45:17 <tusho> that was me rebootig
21:45:35 -!- optbot has joined.
21:45:35 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | sounds like a shitty project.
21:45:52 <oerjan> tusho: optbot did not approve
21:45:53 <optbot> oerjan: doesn't
21:45:57 <tusho> XD
21:46:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about rewriting that C++ app without STL
21:46:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, for memory usage
21:46:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: Be my guest.
21:46:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, need docs for model.bin and tokens.bin then
21:46:37 <AnMaster> and so on
21:46:54 <tusho> "Be my guest" -> "I don't want to spend time on it"
21:46:59 <tusho> "Document file formats" == "Spending time"
21:47:01 <fizzie> You've got the code, what do you need docs for? You can just replace the containers with pointers/arrays.
21:47:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm ok
21:48:06 <fizzie> Still, I'm not so sure STL adds a _huge_ overhead. Of course there's quite a lot of nodes.
21:49:22 <tusho> "Ruby (Rack) application could not be started"
21:49:23 <tusho> Meep.
21:49:37 <tusho> Ironic that the module's name is "Rails deployment that just works"
21:49:40 <tusho> Err, slogan
21:49:45 <tusho> Oh, I see.
21:49:50 <tusho> I forgot to install some libraries my app needs.
21:50:18 <tusho> Internal Server Error
21:50:21 <tusho> That is ... not good.
21:51:33 <fizzie> Oh, and replacing the std::maps might be a bit less trivial. I think it needs a sensible iteration order for those currently. Simple arrays and binary-searching could work. Slower than the treemaps, maybe.
21:54:28 -!- atrapado has joined.
21:54:41 <tusho> hey guyz
21:54:43 <tusho> http://gaccproxy.eso-std.org/
21:54:45 <tusho> it's done!
21:55:07 <tusho> that's an example client
21:55:11 <tusho> http://gaccproxy.appspot.com/ is the server/developer site
22:00:02 <AnMaster> "A free account can use up to 500MB of persistent storage and enough CPU and bandwidth for about 5 million page views a month."
22:00:09 <AnMaster> that sounds too good to be true
22:00:16 <AnMaster> like the gmail storage does
22:00:20 <tusho> AnMaster: dude, it's google
22:00:26 <tusho> google have _shitloads_ of resources
22:00:36 <AnMaster> I wonder if they actually have the space needed if every gmail user would fill his/her account
22:00:42 <tusho> and yes, they do, I believe
22:00:48 <tusho> considering, you know
22:00:54 <tusho> they have enough space to index a huge chunk of the web
22:00:57 <AnMaster> true
22:01:09 <AnMaster> but how do they have space left over after that...
22:01:34 <tusho> AnMaster: because disk is cheap and they are ready for the next burst of sites :P
22:04:01 <AnMaster> "If your application is running under Google Apps, it can use the same features with members of your organization and Google Apps accounts."
22:04:04 <AnMaster> hm what is that
22:04:11 <AnMaster> Google Apps I mean
22:06:17 <tusho> "google apps for your domain"
22:06:22 <tusho> it lets you have @domain.com addresses
22:06:25 <tusho> but still use gmail on them
22:06:28 <AnMaster> ah ok
22:06:30 <tusho> and all the other google stuff like documents, calenders etc
22:06:37 <tusho> also lets you e.g. change the logo from 'google' for branding purposes, etc
22:08:52 <AnMaster> I wonder why google is doing this...
22:09:15 <tusho> AnMaster: 20% time.
22:09:31 <tusho> developers at google are encouraged to work on a side project for 20% of their work hours
22:09:37 <AnMaster> ok
22:09:41 <tusho> they had the infrastructure, i guess someone thought it would be a neat idea to open it up
22:09:41 <AnMaster> 20% is a lot
22:09:42 <AnMaster> ...
22:09:49 <oerjan> they're a front for aliens.  once they have gotten the whole internet transferred to them, they'll shut it off and attack.
22:09:50 <AnMaster> like a LOT
22:09:51 <tusho> AnMaster: google life is pretty lavish apparently
22:10:09 <AnMaster> tusho, yeah would like to work there, but that is just a far fetched dream
22:10:25 <tusho> ditto, i'm quite the google fan
22:10:40 <AnMaster> I still think they are slightly evil
22:10:49 <AnMaster> but even so it would be a great place to work at
22:10:56 <tusho> all companies are evil
22:10:59 <AnMaster> I mean, 20% for side projects
22:11:05 <AnMaster> tusho, all large you mean
22:11:11 <tusho> AnMaster: all companies are a little bit evil :)
22:11:18 <tusho> they're designed to crush their competitors
22:11:22 <tusho> that is the whole point of a company
22:11:29 <AnMaster> I think there may be companies with 1 ppl working at them that are not evil
22:11:53 <AnMaster> small shops for example
22:12:16 <AnMaster> tusho, anyway Google is probably less evil that most other companies of the same size
22:12:19 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/6yuac/let_people_use_google_accounts_to_log_in_to_your/ whee
22:12:26 <AnMaster> IKEA is another low-evil I believe
22:12:32 <AnMaster> considering all the stuff about it
22:14:04 <oerjan> you mean like the founder once was a nazi supporter? :D
22:14:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, he was? didn't know
22:14:33 <oerjan> wikipedia says so
22:14:34 <AnMaster> and really?
22:14:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, [citation needed]
22:14:56 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Kamprad#Nazi_involvement
22:15:38 <tusho> ugh, someone downmodded my reddit submission already
22:15:48 <tusho> probably another member of the Downvote Everything brigade
22:15:55 <tusho> (honestly, apparently most submissions are just ... ugh)
22:16:01 <tusho> shit
22:16:04 <tusho> forgot to post in /programming/
22:16:33 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6yuat/let_people_use_google_accounts_to_log_in_to_your/ yay
22:16:38 <tusho> now someone upvote that :P
22:18:18 <tusho> 2 upvotes 8)
22:18:21 <tusho> 2kool4skool
22:23:30 <fizzie> 00:09.0 Multimedia controller: Philips Semiconductors SAA7146 (rev 01)
22:23:35 <fizzie> Negh.
22:23:39 <tusho> fizzie: lol wut
22:23:47 <fizzie> Just my personal nonsense generator.
22:23:55 <fizzie> Also called "the middle button".
22:25:11 <tusho> :D
22:25:30 <fizzie> It's my DVB-C digitv card; it shows up in lspci, but no longer seems to respond to the driver.
22:26:46 <fizzie> Still worked when I last booted that thing, and hasn't had any software changed since then, so it might even be a real life hardware issue. Which is not nice.
22:29:10 <oerjan> resetting real life is just so damn awkward
22:29:22 <tusho> who's 72.93.181.175
22:29:22 <tusho> :P
22:29:43 <tusho> cool, someone's added the second app
22:29:48 <tusho> auth uri = http://ilusi.WTF.la/ o.O
22:30:11 <oerjan> Name: pool-72-93-181-175.bstnma.east.verizon.net
22:30:20 <tusho> oerjan: who isit
22:30:20 <tusho> :P
22:30:27 <oerjan> not me
22:46:13 <tusho> yay 5 points
22:47:19 <tusho> hmph
22:47:20 <tusho> 4 points
22:47:25 <tusho> someone upvote http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6yuat/let_people_use_google_accounts_to_log_in_to_your/ :P
22:51:00 <GregorR> If one day I was to decide to use reddit, a part of me would die that I could never get back.
22:51:17 <tusho> GregorR: It beats digg.
22:51:24 <tusho> oh noes
22:51:24 <tusho> 3 points
22:51:42 <GregorR> If one day I was to decide to use digg, a larger part of me would die that I could never get back.
22:51:52 <tusho> GregorR: I joined reddit when it was still a bunch of programmers.
22:52:02 <tusho> Few months later, the front page is filled with politics and lolcats.
22:52:06 <tusho> So I only read /r/programming any more.
22:52:10 <tusho> And it's semi-decent.
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22:56:53 <tusho> Wow.
22:57:04 <tusho> A site detected I was blocking its ads, and gave me an overlay kindly asking me to stop.
22:57:16 <tusho> Go fuck yourself, mister overlay. I wouldn't click your ads, so I've blocked them.
22:57:18 <tusho> *clicks OK*
22:58:30 <GregorR> Hahaha
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23:51:27 <dogface> That's why I don't block ads.
23:51:30 <dogface> Or is it?
23:53:22 <oerjan> optbot!
23:53:22 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | maybe I can do it in C++ with SDL.

2008-08-31:

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00:11:49 <tusho> dogface: Why not?
00:11:52 <tusho> Do you ever click ads?
00:11:58 <tusho> if not, why clutter your screen with wasteful space?
00:12:05 <tusho> Additionally: clicking an ad by mistake is technically click fraud
00:12:14 <tusho> if you'll never click one intentionally anyway, blocking them is actually a miniscule amount good
00:12:25 <dogface> I do click them sometimes.
00:16:56 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6yuat/let_people_use_google_accounts_to_log_in_to_your/
00:16:56 <tusho> NOOOOOO
00:16:57 <tusho> DOWNVOTSE
00:16:58 <tusho> :(
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05:20:34 <HanDongSeong> hello!
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09:45:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i like it.
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10:29:03 <AnMaster> %help
10:29:04 <funnygot> %<lang> <code>; %def <command> <lang> <code>; %show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; %str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
10:29:06 <AnMaster> %save
10:29:07 <funnygot> OK.
10:29:17 <AnMaster> %reload
10:29:19 <funnygot> Reloaded.
10:29:25 <AnMaster> %raw QUIT
10:29:26 -!- funnygot has quit (Client Quit).
10:30:30 -!- funnygot has joined.
10:30:40 <AnMaster> %bf .
10:30:41 <funnygot> .
10:30:47 <AnMaster> %bf +++++++++++++++++++.
10:30:48 <funnygot> .
10:31:00 <AnMaster> %bf .+[.+]
10:31:02 <funnygot> ................................ !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~������������������������������������������������������������������������������� ...
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11:19:09 <Deewiant> %bf >++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<++.>+++[<+++>-]<++++++.-------.-------.++++++++.+++++.>+++++++++[<--------->-]<---.>++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+++++++++++++++.+.++++.>++++[<---->-]<--.>+++[<+++>-]<++++.+++++.
11:19:11 <funnygot> fungot optbot
11:19:11 <fungot> funnygot: in lisp, use scheme. structure and interpretation of quantum mechanics', which should definitely not have any undefined behaviour is meant to just be able to
11:19:11 <optbot> funnygot: would be cool to get aroused by CA
11:19:27 <Deewiant> meh, it was worth a try
11:24:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hum?
11:24:29 <AnMaster> funnygot doesn't have any language model data yet so it can't do that stuff
11:24:46 <AnMaster> fungot, "in lisp, use scheme"?
11:24:47 <fungot> AnMaster: i added a new page and sends it to emacs, i suggest fnord, and i
11:25:18 <AnMaster> fungot, and what does quantum mechanics have to do with it
11:25:19 <fungot> AnMaster: whom are you speaking in general, it looks rather out-of-place here too. :) i'm feeling like scrapping it.
11:26:31 <AnMaster> fungot, optbot
11:26:32 <fungot> AnMaster: type errors do not exist... i swear i sound just like riastradh said above. that was the 3/ 3... should start ignoring my feature suggestions hehe thanks, i've succeeded to get it on
11:26:32 <optbot> AnMaster: what if one of my strings is digits of pi, and the other is digits of 4-pi?
11:27:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and like fungot it would stop after a few iterations
11:27:28 <fungot> AnMaster: it doesn't catch exceptions when executing the callbacks, only when registering them. the fox knows how to party back in the other
11:28:14 <AnMaster> fungot, what the heck does a fox have to do with callbacks and exceptions?
11:28:22 <AnMaster> fungot, and why a party?
11:28:28 <AnMaster> ^help
11:28:29 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]
11:28:31 <AnMaster> hm
11:34:15 <AnMaster> hm I just got a great idea for how to optimise brainfuck a bit better
11:34:29 <AnMaster> probably someone already thought of it
11:35:22 <AnMaster> my idea is, you can replace ++ and -- with set constant sometimes, for example if that cell have had a [-] on it just before and there have been no loops with unbalanced <> in it
11:35:32 <AnMaster> then [-]++ becomes "set 2"
11:36:58 <AnMaster> in the same style you could do reordering of stuff like ++>--<<++>- to end up as: +>--<<++>
11:37:53 <AnMaster> of course as soon as you got a [] with unbalanced <> in it you need to set a new base point for your renumbering after
11:38:45 <AnMaster> should be possible to optimise unbalanced loops too a bit, as long as you always end up on the same cell relative the beginning at the end of each iteration
11:38:59 <AnMaster> but I assume ppl have already done all of these
11:40:07 <AnMaster> since some of these optimisations(spelling?) are potentially rather expensive it would probably only make sense in a compiler, and not in a interpreter
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11:57:12 <tusho> Pretty polarized submission.
11:57:15 <tusho> 30 downmods, 40 up.
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12:41:52 <AnMaster> tusho, question: does haskell support threads?
12:42:05 <tusho> yes.
12:42:16 <AnMaster> easy to use?
12:42:17 <tusho> AnMaster: however, haskellers probably wouldn't use threads directly
12:42:32 <AnMaster> tusho, are they OS level threads or?
12:42:37 <tusho> AnMaster: both
12:42:41 <AnMaster> k
12:42:51 <tusho> AnMaster: haskell is a general purpose language
12:42:56 <AnMaster> I know it is
12:42:56 <tusho> it has just about everything.
12:43:02 <tusho> why do you ask out of curiosity?
12:43:18 <AnMaster> tusho, I think you missed a comma there
12:43:30 <tusho> no, my question was out of curiosity
12:43:41 <AnMaster> then my answer is:
12:43:41 <tusho> "why do you ask, out of curiosity?" would imply that I think you asked out of curiosity
12:43:42 <AnMaster> out of curiosity
12:43:44 <tusho> :)
12:44:08 <AnMaster> <tusho> "why do you ask, out of curiosity?" would imply that I think you asked out of curiosity <-- well I thought you meant that
12:44:15 <tusho> yea, but i didn't
12:44:15 <tusho> :D
12:45:07 <AnMaster> hm this pains me a lot, but I need to do it, try cfunge on icc, yes icc is closed source but I need to check that it works
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12:45:19 <tusho> AnMaster: OH NO A COMPANY IS PROTECTING THEIR EFFORTS
12:45:21 -!- oklopol has joined.
12:45:27 <tusho> it's ok! we'll be right with you!
12:45:31 <AnMaster> tusho, very funny :P
12:45:39 <tusho> we'll hold your hand, it's ok, you can pass the dark forest :O
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12:52:27 <tusho> this download is going slow
12:52:28 * tusho pokes it
12:53:15 <tusho> yay
12:53:19 <tusho> thanks for finishing download
12:53:19 <tusho> <3
12:53:32 <tusho> you are pretty awesome, finishing like that
12:57:04 <tusho> hooray
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13:01:57 <AnMaster> ok it works under icc apart from one typo in CMakeLists.txt
13:01:59 * AnMaster fixes that
13:05:01 <AnMaster> however I need to figure out how to make cmake set the C99 switch...
13:08:52 <tusho> This is nice.
13:11:20 <oklopol> so, what's the meaning of life?
13:11:41 <tusho> oklopol: beats me.
13:11:46 <tusho> Ha, I just noticed optbot's topic.
13:11:47 <optbot> tusho: back
13:11:47 <tusho> Fitting.
13:12:33 <oklopol> i'm hearing stuff about this chistianity, that fun?
13:12:38 <oklopol> *christianity
13:12:45 <tusho> not really
13:12:50 <tusho> it's a bit gloomy and unbelievable
13:12:55 <oklopol> they say it's the ceiling cat we should be listening to
13:12:57 <oklopol> is that so?
13:13:03 <tusho> hmm
13:13:04 <tusho> not really
13:13:09 <tusho> he's not actually there if you look
13:13:13 <tusho> it's just a photo.
13:13:26 <oklopol> well there was a cardboard one too
13:13:32 <oklopol> is that the real thing?
13:13:39 <oklopol> you'd think it'd be like a real cat
13:13:42 <tusho> not really
13:13:44 <tusho> it's just a picture
13:13:51 <tusho> a bunch of marks on some wood.
13:14:05 <tusho> though we're just marks of flesh on some bones, i guess.
13:14:37 <oklopol> well bongu is lojban for bone
13:16:51 <dogface> The meaning of life is HAVE KIDS PLZ.
13:17:06 <oklopol> i want a coder kid
13:17:17 <tusho> a coder kid would be weird
13:17:22 <tusho> "daddy, you forgot a semicolon"
13:17:24 <tusho> "you moron"
13:17:28 <oklopol> :P
13:17:30 <tusho> "WELL IN MY DAY WE HAD PYTHON AND WE LIKED IT"
13:17:31 <oklopol> yeah i want that
13:17:37 <tusho> "AND PYTHON HAD NO SEMICOLONS"
13:17:41 <tusho> "how did you ever live"
13:20:21 <oklopol> i was thinking more like the other way around
13:20:30 <oklopol> but perhaps C is the way of the future
13:20:44 <tusho> oklopol: no, the semicolons will now have a new purpose
13:20:58 <tusho> syntax will be turned on its head, the semicolons will be seperators of some kind but not in a way seen in programming langs of today
13:21:00 <oklopol> is that so?
13:21:02 <tusho> it'll be a totally new paradigm.
13:21:09 <oklopol> well prolly, prolly
13:21:22 <tusho> and
13:21:23 <tusho> it will be called
13:21:25 <tusho> oklotalk
13:21:28 <tusho> .
13:21:29 <oklopol> :---)
13:21:40 <oklopol> well in oklotalk ;'s are pretty mundane separators
13:21:51 <tusho> oklopol: ah but oklotalk is no where near finalized
13:21:54 <tusho> and even then that'll just be 1
13:21:58 <oklopol> :P
13:22:01 <tusho> in the future, we'll have oklotalk 5 or 6
13:22:12 <tusho> and it will be totally unrecognizabl
13:22:13 <tusho> e
13:22:16 <oklopol> indeed
13:22:40 <tusho> and you'll get paid by a company called Xirian (pronounced Zirian) or something like that, to work on oklotalk all the time
13:22:45 <tusho> because they use it for all their stuff
13:22:53 <tusho> and they produce the fastest, most widely used software in the world
13:22:59 <oklopol> :P
13:23:00 <tusho> you know that oklotalk OS you blabbed about?
13:23:05 <tusho> yea. windows didn't really stand a chance.
13:23:07 <oklopol> yes, i know it
13:23:12 <oklopol> nice :)
13:23:22 <oklopol> i'm planning an academic career tbh
13:23:50 <tusho> oklopol: yes, but xirian will start making the most awesome oklotalk programs ever and they'll offer you bajillions just for working on the spec and impl all day.
13:24:06 <oklopol> well that does sound nice
13:25:01 <tusho> also, tons of musicians will start composing with oklotalk
13:25:14 <tusho> because it has tons of generative, evolution stuff.
13:25:47 <tusho> and xirian will have developed and extension to oklotalk with a gui library that is the most concise in the world. so you see people performing live with a screen full of oklotalk programs plugged in to each other generating things.
13:25:53 <tusho> and then you will be declared king of the world
13:25:59 <tusho> and the main religion will be oko
13:26:20 <oklopol> yeah i'll take some of that please where do i sign
13:26:31 <tusho> nowhere, it will happen in due course
13:26:35 <tusho> and due intercourse.
13:26:41 <tusho> you have to have sex with the right people for that to happen
13:26:51 <oklopol> oh
13:26:55 <oklopol> i gotta start going out.
13:26:59 <tusho> yes
13:27:07 <tusho> but don't sacrifice your geekiness
13:27:13 <tusho> then you will not get to oklotalk v6
13:27:20 <tusho> go, my little oklopol
13:27:21 <tusho> GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
13:27:22 <oklopol> good point
13:27:34 <tusho> not immediately though, i mean, no rush
13:27:37 * oklopol goes out looking for vaginal glory ->
13:28:10 <oklopol> ...umm was it girls or men?
13:28:14 <tusho> http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/eng/814593791.html <-- "Do just about everything for us and since we're a startup hey no guarantees about the money guy but it HELPS PEOPLE! You just have to be perfect!"
13:30:00 <tusho> oklopol: genies
13:30:04 <tusho> you have to have sex with genies. go ->
13:30:41 <oklopol> :o
13:30:43 <oklopol> well
13:30:50 <oklopol> i guess i have to give it a try ->
13:30:53 <tusho> oklopol: or, you know, anyone
13:30:55 <tusho> but genies are the best
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13:48:46 <tusho> i like this.
13:55:32 <AnMaster> /home/anmaster/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c(36): remark #981: operands are evaluated in unspecified order
13:55:33 <AnMaster>         c = calloc(strlen(top) + strlen(bottom) + 1, sizeof(char));
13:55:33 <AnMaster>             ^
13:55:34 <AnMaster> huh
13:55:36 <AnMaster> I don't get it
13:56:08 <AnMaster> I don't get what ICC means there, I can't see anything weird
13:56:28 <tusho> ask #c (hahahaha see I made a joke)
13:56:41 <tusho> AnMaster: maybe it htinks sizeof(char) could be changed by strlen
13:56:57 <AnMaster> tusho, that would be pretty strange if it happened
13:57:02 <tusho> quite :D
13:57:20 <tusho> AnMaster: ah, wait
13:57:24 <tusho> maybe it thinks the expr could change top or bottom
13:57:26 <tusho> so the strlen would be up
13:57:27 <tusho> i dunno
13:57:40 <AnMaster> um strlen shouldn't change either, nor is c an alias of either
13:58:18 <AnMaster> tusho, there is another similiar strange one:
13:58:19 <AnMaster> /home/anmaster/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/BASE/BASE.c(85): remark #981: operands are evaluated in unspecified order
13:58:19 <AnMaster>                 size_t i = ceil(anyLog((double)base, (double)val) + 1);
13:58:28 <tusho> odd.
13:58:28 <AnMaster> anyLog is:
13:58:30 <AnMaster> #define anyLog(base, value) (log(value)/log(base))
13:58:41 <AnMaster> pretty simple and all the () are there as far as I can see
13:59:13 <AnMaster> tusho, maybe log() could change the value of +1?
13:59:15 <AnMaster> XD
13:59:32 <tusho> but of course
13:59:33 <tusho> :D
13:59:41 <AnMaster> since that seems to be the only thing common between these cases
14:00:04 <AnMaster> it is: a(b(x) op b(y) + 1)
14:00:09 <AnMaster> where op is either + or /
14:00:22 <tusho> AnMaster: maybe it's saying:
14:00:28 <tusho> you don't know it'll be b(x) then b(y)
14:00:32 <tusho> it could be b(y) then b(x)
14:00:37 <tusho> though, it should only say that for sideeffecting things
14:00:49 <AnMaster> well... strlen or log shouldn't have any side effects
14:01:00 <AnMaster> /home/anmaster/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/FIXP/FIXP.c(41): remark #981: operands are evaluated in unspecified order
14:01:00 <AnMaster>         StackPush(ip->stack, StackPop(ip->stack) & StackPop(ip->stack));
14:01:02 <AnMaster> gm
14:01:03 <AnMaster> hm*
14:01:10 <tusho> ah
14:01:11 <tusho> now that is reasonable
14:01:21 <tusho> ip->stack could be executed before or after StackPop(ip->stack)
14:01:23 <AnMaster> yes, but the result is the same both ways
14:01:27 <tusho> no
14:01:28 <tusho> the first argument
14:01:31 <tusho> could be before or after the second
14:01:32 <AnMaster> ip->stack isn't executed
14:01:35 <tusho> yes it is
14:01:40 <tusho> StackPush(ip->stack, ...
14:01:43 <AnMaster> it is a pointer to a struct
14:01:47 <tusho> AnMaster: StackPop changes ip->stack, does it not?
14:01:52 <AnMaster> tusho, yes it does
14:01:55 <tusho> AnMaster: think about it
14:01:58 <tusho> it could be executed as
14:01:59 <tusho> ip->stack
14:02:00 <tusho> pop pop
14:02:03 <tusho> StackPush
14:02:03 <tusho> or
14:02:05 <tusho> pop pop
14:02:06 <tusho> ip->stack
14:02:07 <AnMaster> um
14:02:09 <tusho> stackpush
14:02:14 <tusho> AnMaster: WHAT IS HARD TO GET
14:02:14 <tusho> READ IT
14:02:15 <AnMaster> the value of the pointer stack is the same
14:02:22 <tusho> StackPush(ip->stack, StackPop(ip->stack) & StackPop(ip->stack));
14:02:22 <tusho> either
14:02:23 <AnMaster> what it changes is ip->stack->entries
14:02:23 <tusho> ip->stack
14:02:24 <tusho> or
14:02:25 <AnMaster> in that case
14:02:27 <AnMaster> and
14:02:27 <tusho> ah
14:02:29 <tusho> you didn't goddamn say that
14:02:29 <AnMaster> what it changes is ip->stack->top
14:02:35 <tusho> "AnMaster: StackPop changes ip->stack, does it not?"
14:02:39 <tusho> "tusho, yes it does"
14:02:46 <AnMaster> tusho, well it changes the *members* of said struct
14:02:56 <tusho> AnMaster: then it is complaining about StackPop(ip->stack) & StackPop(ip->stack).
14:03:10 <AnMaster> tusho, still doesn't explain the strlen() and log() issue...
14:03:19 <tusho> i dunno.
14:03:19 <AnMaster> log is pass by value so makes 0 sense there
14:03:45 <AnMaster> /home/anmaster/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/TURT/TURT.c(321): remark #981: operands are evaluated in unspecified order
14:03:45 <AnMaster>                 snprintf(sh, sizeof(sh), FIXEDFMT, PRINTFIXED(h));
14:03:46 <AnMaster> hm
14:03:49 <AnMaster> let me check that one
14:04:09 <AnMaster> #define FIXEDFMT   "%s%d.%04u"
14:04:10 <AnMaster> #define PRINTFIXED(n) ((n) < 0) ? "-" : "", getInt(n), getDec(n)
14:05:25 <AnMaster> apart from evaluating n serveral times, but it doesn't change h
14:05:34 <AnMaster> err n
14:05:49 <AnMaster> h is int32_t
14:06:08 <AnMaster> sh is a buffer
14:06:09 <AnMaster> char sh[64];
14:06:11 <tusho> wahey, it's over.
14:06:16 <AnMaster> tusho, ?
14:06:29 <tusho> AnMaster: i downloaded & listened to an album. i like it. ~fin~
14:06:33 <AnMaster> ah
14:07:23 <AnMaster> well I fixed all actually interesting ICC warnings, and the odd undefined order stuff: no clue about that
14:07:25 <AnMaster> /home/anmaster/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/SOCK/SOCK.c(162): warning #810: conversion from "fungeCell={int32_t={int}}" to "uint16_t={unsigned short}" may lose significant bits
14:07:26 <AnMaster>         uint16_t  port    = StackPop(ip->stack);
14:07:26 <AnMaster>                             ^
14:07:34 <AnMaster> that is just false positive
14:07:49 <AnMaster> I guess adding a lot of casts would shut it up
14:08:00 <tusho> AnMaster: icc is meant to be incredibly comprehensive
14:08:09 <tusho> i imagine the overpedanticism is a feature
14:08:13 <AnMaster> true, but it had some strange warnings
14:08:32 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
14:08:35 <tusho> AnMaster: a cool thing: formally verified C compiler http://compcert.inria.fr/compcert-C.html
14:08:38 <AnMaster> like a "missing return" at the end of a function that GCC correctly detected as unreachable
14:08:43 <tusho> it doesn't support goto, longjmp/setjmp, duff's device etc and too
14:08:47 <tusho> also, doesn't support variadic functions
14:08:49 <tusho> still, pretty neat
14:09:19 <AnMaster> tusho, so you need: printf("%d %d", &myarrarayvariable); ?
14:09:44 <tusho> AnMaster: not sure
14:10:05 <tusho> i'm sure you could probably make it work
14:10:12 <tusho> but they didn't bother because it's a proof of concept
14:10:14 <AnMaster> I do use goto in fact for some error handling in SOCK and FILE, since there are a lot of things to clean up in case of error and a lot of possible code paths resulting in error
14:10:22 <AnMaster> thus a goto error;
14:10:24 <tusho> yes i agree, goto has many good uses
14:10:34 <AnMaster> however goto can easily get abused to
14:10:40 <AnMaster> and cause unmaintainable code
14:11:00 <AnMaster> but I think the sort of error handling needed in SOCK and FILE are a good place for goto
14:11:28 <AnMaster> /home/anmaster/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/SOCK/SOCK.c(208): warning #810: conversion from "int" to "unsigned short" may lose significant bits
14:11:28 <AnMaster>                         addr.in.sin_port=htons(port);
14:11:28 <AnMaster>                                          ^
14:11:30 <AnMaster> that makes no sense
14:12:07 <AnMaster> port is uint16_t, htons return uint16_t, unsigned short is uint16_t...
14:12:22 <tusho> AnMaster: you can't guarantee that unsigned short is uint16_t
14:12:24 <AnMaster> so it's prototype for htons must be messed up in some way
14:12:26 <tusho> is that specified anywhere?
14:12:34 <tusho> in the c standard
14:12:36 <AnMaster> tusho, I think addr.in.sin_port is uint16_t too
14:12:37 <AnMaster> so...
14:12:59 <AnMaster> there is no conversion from int to unsigned short in that line
14:13:14 <AnMaster> all variables and return values and parameters are uint16_t
14:13:15 <AnMaster> ...
14:13:22 <AnMaster> from man htons:
14:13:24 <AnMaster>        uint16_t htons(uint16_t hostshort);
14:13:40 <AnMaster> port is defined as: uint16_t  port
14:13:50 <AnMaster> tusho, still think ICC is right?
14:14:20 * tusho shrugs
14:19:11 <AnMaster> a | b == b | a;  a & b == b & a; a ^ b == b ^ a;
14:19:15 <AnMaster> in C
14:19:19 <AnMaster> so this makes no sense...
14:28:01 <AnMaster> tusho, I think I see about htons()
14:28:13 <AnMaster> it is a macro using asm() in the system header file on x86
14:28:19 <AnMaster> I run this icc compile on a p3
14:29:04 <AnMaster> so the issue is in the macro htons() as found in the system header
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14:43:28 <AnMaster> tusho, about that formally verified compiler...
14:43:30 <AnMaster> "The Compcert verified compiler is a compiler for a large subset of the C programming language that generates code for the PowerPC processor."
14:43:35 <tusho> what about it
14:43:39 <AnMaster> well I think I got a PPC somewhere
14:43:42 <AnMaster> 300 MHz
14:43:44 <AnMaster> old old ibook
14:43:49 <tusho> go give it a try
14:43:49 <tusho> :P
14:43:54 <AnMaster> but never use it since the battery is broken in it
14:44:14 <AnMaster> and there is a glitch (right English word?) in the power connector
14:44:21 <AnMaster> so if you move the computer it may fail
14:44:29 <AnMaster> also it runs Mac OS 9 or something like that
14:44:32 <AnMaster> pre-OSX
14:44:42 <Corun> But it _can_ run OS X
14:44:49 <Corun> (All iBooks can)
14:44:50 <AnMaster> with 3 GB harddrive?
14:44:54 <AnMaster> good luck
14:45:01 <Corun> Not very _much_ OS X
14:45:03 <Corun> :-P
14:45:22 <AnMaster> Corun, 32 MB ram iirc
14:45:25 <AnMaster> or maybe it was 64 MB
14:45:28 <AnMaster> still way too low
14:45:32 <Corun> This doesn't sound like an iBook
14:45:39 <AnMaster> Corun, it is, first model
14:45:50 <AnMaster> one of the 10 first delivered to Sweden iirc
14:45:52 <AnMaster> white/blue
14:45:59 <AnMaster> Corun, that old
14:46:03 <Corun> Oh, wow. They really only had 32 meg of ram
14:46:09 <AnMaster> think so
14:46:13 <AnMaster> or 64
14:46:19 <Corun> No 32, the very first model
14:46:32 <AnMaster> Corun, it got 32 MB extra installed under the keyboard it seems
14:46:54 <Corun> OS X minimum is 128 :/
14:47:00 <AnMaster> well then there you go
14:47:03 <AnMaster> can't run OS X
14:47:09 <Corun> I had a clamshell iBook
14:47:10 <AnMaster> can barely run OS 9
14:47:16 <AnMaster> well it is a clamshell yes
14:47:23 <Corun> But, we upped the ram
14:47:27 <Corun> I did run OS X on it
14:47:33 <AnMaster> Corun, first model?
14:47:35 <AnMaster> or later one?
14:48:11 <Corun> Hmm, I don't remember
14:48:27 <Corun> I also had a 800mhz g3 iBook for a very long time
14:48:35 <Corun> Then I jumped from that to my current Mac Book Pro
14:48:39 <Corun> That was a sudden jump
14:48:41 <Corun> I can tell ya
14:49:17 <Corun> 800 mhz, 512 meg of ram to dual 2.2ghz, 2 gig of ram
14:49:22 <Corun> That was fun
14:49:26 <Corun> :-)
14:50:11 <AnMaster> Corun, this one is 300 MHz
14:50:25 <AnMaster> since then I left apple
14:50:32 <Corun> :-(
14:50:41 <AnMaster> prefer home built x86/x86_64 desktops
14:50:53 <Corun> You could still run OS X on your desktops
14:50:57 <Corun> Albeit a little illegally
14:50:58 <AnMaster> why would I want to?
14:51:01 <AnMaster> Linux is better
14:51:01 <AnMaster> :D
14:51:06 <Corun> OS X is the reason to use macs
14:51:10 <Corun> OS X is better than linux
14:51:21 <AnMaster> Corun, well the only reason mac was better was PPC
14:51:25 <AnMaster> but since they left that...
14:51:27 <AnMaster> no reason
14:51:38 <Corun> The reason Macs are better is cos they run OS X
14:51:40 <Corun> And they still do
14:51:43 <Corun> So they're still better
14:51:43 <Corun> :-)
14:51:44 <AnMaster> I disagree
14:51:45 <tusho> Corun: don't get started on AnMaster, he pained to test his stuff on icc because it was propitetary
14:52:05 <tusho> turn back now before you're arguing with him daily.
14:52:20 <Corun> I'm not really arguing yet
14:52:25 <Corun> Just making statements of fact
14:52:29 <Corun> ...
14:52:31 * Corun runs
14:52:44 <oklopol> linux and mac os both suck ass
14:52:48 <AnMaster> according to dmidecode the manufacturer of this computer is "To Be Filled By O.E.M."
14:52:49 <AnMaster> :D
14:53:07 <Corun> Heh
14:53:11 <AnMaster> Corun, and well OS choice is mostly subjective
14:53:18 <Corun> :-)
14:53:25 <AnMaster> anyone know how I fill in the manufacturer field?
14:53:28 <tusho> oklopol: and your alternative?
14:53:33 <AnMaster> since I *am* OEM of this computer
14:53:36 <tusho> note: must be a real os.
14:53:52 <oklopol> tusho: do i have to have an alternative?
14:54:01 <Corun> Yeah
14:54:07 <Corun> We're arguing relative goodness
14:54:08 <tusho> oklopol: yes
14:54:11 <tusho> we are discussing the best of what exists
14:54:14 <oklopol> oh
14:54:23 <oklopol> that's stupid
14:54:27 <oklopol> who cares what exist
14:54:29 <oklopol> *exists
14:54:29 <Corun> Not really
14:54:32 <oklopol> i'm going to bed
14:54:34 <Corun> We're being pragmatic
14:54:37 <Corun> Have a nice sleep
14:54:39 <Corun> Your bed sucks btw
14:54:51 <oklopol> actually my bed is fucking awesome
14:54:54 <oklopol> you should try it
14:54:56 <AnMaster> by the way what is "asset-tag", according to dmidecode my computer chassis' asset-tag is "Asset-1234567890"
14:54:58 <Corun> Ok
14:54:59 <AnMaster> whatever that means
14:55:01 <Corun> What's your address.
14:55:16 <oklopol> finland, do i need to specify?
14:55:21 <tusho> yes
14:55:24 <tusho> how can he try your bed otherwise
14:55:26 <Corun> There's only like 2 people in finland right?
14:55:29 <Corun> Which one's your house?
14:55:37 <oklopol> yes, and 4 of them are on this channel
14:55:42 <AnMaster> huh, my mobo got a weird serial number too: MB-1234567890
14:55:42 <tusho> lmao
14:55:46 <oklopol> no 5
14:55:54 <AnMaster> I mean that is "not filled in" clearly
14:56:03 <AnMaster> but the mobo I would have assumed would have a real one
14:56:03 <oklopol> i have the middle one
14:56:10 <Corun> Only 2 of those 5 are actually people
14:56:16 <tusho> no
14:56:18 <tusho> they're all people
14:56:20 <tusho> it's very simple
14:56:27 <Corun> And they're all in finland?
14:56:28 <tusho> there are 2 people in finland
14:56:30 <tusho> 5 of them are in this channel
14:56:38 <Corun> Cool
14:56:42 <Corun> Which house is oklopols
14:56:51 <Corun> The east one or the west one?
14:57:00 <oklopol> the middle one
14:57:10 <Corun> Which is east or west of the other one?
14:57:26 <tusho> "yes"
14:57:32 <Corun> Ok, cool
14:57:33 <Corun> Well
14:57:39 <Corun> I'll be there in like a few hours
14:57:46 <tusho> great
14:57:46 <oklopol> alright
14:57:49 <AnMaster> Corun, um there is a north one too
14:57:55 <AnMaster> just it is a secret
14:57:56 <Corun> Is there any public transport that gets me from finland's airport to your house?
14:58:07 <oklopol> sure, you take the bus
14:58:14 <Corun> _the_ bus?
14:58:15 <oklopol> take the train if you wanna see the other guy
14:58:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, so who drives the bus?
14:58:27 <oklopol> yeah, _the_ bus
14:58:29 <Corun> Which stop is it?
14:58:35 <oklopol> AnMaster: Corun, presumably.
14:58:43 <AnMaster> ah...
14:58:44 <oklopol> Corun: it's _the_ stop, obviously.
14:58:48 <Corun> Oh, kay
14:58:50 <Corun> Well then
14:59:03 <Corun> About how far is it from finland's airport to _the_ stop?
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14:59:23 <oklopol> wake me up when you have a conversation where someone who doesn't believe in the real world can contribute
14:59:25 <AnMaster> however... you got a lot of lakes oklopol
14:59:28 <oklopol> ->
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14:59:44 <tusho> no
14:59:46 <tusho> one of the five finns in here drive the bus
14:59:55 <Corun> Indeed
14:59:59 <Corun> I'm not driving to fuckin' his house
15:00:00 <AnMaster> tusho, which is one of the existing two?
15:00:14 <tusho> AnMaster: None of the two people in finland drive the bus or the train
15:00:28 <Corun> But one of the five in here does
15:00:34 <AnMaster> ah so you mean 3 of the 5 finns live abroad?
15:00:39 <Corun> No
15:00:47 <tusho> no
15:00:52 <tusho> 1. There are 2 people in Finland
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15:00:55 <asiekierka> HELLO
15:00:56 <asiekierka> I'M BACK
15:00:57 <Corun> There are 2 people in finland. Of which 5 people are in this channel
15:00:58 <tusho> 2. 5 of those people are in here
15:01:07 <tusho> 3. None of the 2 people in Finland drive the bus or the train
15:01:14 <tusho> 4. One of the 5 fins in here drive the bus or the train
15:01:22 <Corun> (Or both at the same time)
15:02:22 <Corun> And there are 6 of those people who, collectively, know the route to oklopol's house.
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15:14:57 <asiekierka> ^show
15:14:57 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13
15:15:03 <asiekierka> ^rot13 rot
15:15:04 <fungot> ebg
15:15:14 <asiekierka> ^bf ,[.,]!ahaha
15:15:15 <fungot> ahaha
15:15:21 <asiekierka> ^bf ,[.,]!ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
15:15:21 <fungot> ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
15:15:33 <asiekierka> Ggood llord. Dat'z Fazt
15:16:08 <tusho> ^echo optbot
15:16:08 <fungot> optbot optbot
15:16:08 <optbot> tusho: i wonder if it works on os x nowadays
15:16:09 <optbot> fungot: http://www.bash.org/?136534
15:16:09 <fungot> optbot: i beat mangler, but lose to logicex.
15:16:10 <optbot> fungot: what value do you set foo to so that (print (begin (foo) 1)) never prints the 1?
15:16:10 <fungot> optbot: list constructor, whatever that is on sale in 28 stores and verkkokauppa.com is the 4th church numeral. always anecdotal. although that's true too. there is an
15:16:11 <optbot> fungot: thus, "In theory"
15:16:12 <fungot> optbot: there's a new style of code from scheme?, of course). but i guess it doesn't concern me much if they are given to a data structure thats so tuned to the same object
15:16:13 <optbot> fungot: but yes, fair enough
15:16:13 <fungot> optbot: oh :p. i think i've gotten ( lambda fnord body) to ( call/ cc...) ( generate-temporaries ( syntax ( var)
15:16:14 <optbot> fungot: To use an interpreter: <interpreter> <program>  Note: <program> can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem.
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15:21:17 <tusho> the nonsense was too much for asiekerka
15:25:20 <AnMaster> %show
15:25:29 <AnMaster> hm
15:27:24 <AnMaster> tusho, is optbot completely random?
15:27:25 <optbot> AnMaster: do you have quasiquote
15:27:30 <AnMaster> or is the input related to the output?
15:27:35 <tusho> AnMaster: Completely random, why?
15:27:41 <AnMaster> was just wondering
15:27:55 <AnMaster> putting two eliza bot against each other would be interesting
15:28:30 <AnMaster> fungot have no input/output relation for it's randomness either right?
15:28:31 <fungot> AnMaster: so i made this parody of the python pack/ unpack is already ported to mzscheme, but conjure is mostly library code atm, so not problem in using a old version
15:28:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, ?
15:28:53 <tusho> AnMaster: yes it does
15:28:58 <AnMaster> it does?
15:29:00 <tusho> i think
15:29:04 <AnMaster> h
15:29:06 <AnMaster> hm*
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15:34:48 <asiekierka> hi
15:35:04 <tusho> hi.
15:35:55 <asiekierka> how are the milkweasals
15:36:06 <tusho> none new since #9
15:36:16 <asiekierka> none new since #26 here
15:36:20 <tusho> i guess it's a series of 9
15:36:25 <tusho> it sorts of fits together, i guess
15:36:32 <asiekierka> and no new animathed screebles since #4 (starting from 0)
15:36:52 <tusho> a short story about nothing, with no coherent narrative, and no real ending
15:45:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | python and php are crippled for any serious functional programming, which is too bad.
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17:19:12 <fizzie> AnMaster: Nope, fungot doesn't look at the comment, it just checks if it has the substring "fungot" in it, and if it has, it generates one sentence of nonsense.
17:19:14 <fungot> fizzie: tentacles! fnord/ fnord/ archives/ 001207.html. not with a newsreader))
17:19:37 <AnMaster> huh
17:19:40 <AnMaster> that was cryptic
17:19:40 <fizzie> fungot: Please do not talk about your fetishes, people might try to make some inferences to me.
17:19:41 <fungot> fizzie: if you did something outrageous and wonder why you haven't bugged me plenty. finally settled on using syntax-case egg. but would you explain what you want to
17:20:02 <AnMaster> syntax-case egg?
17:30:11 <fizzie> That was probably related to the "Chicken" scheme interpreter, which calls its extension modules "eggs".
17:30:56 <fizzie> And syntax-case was, of course, the hygienic macro system meant to replace the more limited syntax-rules. I think they maybe even picked syntax-case as the macro system for R6RS Scheme.
17:31:34 <psygnisfive> i wish i understood the difference between hygienic and non~ macros
17:31:35 <psygnisfive> D:
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18:42:35 <funktio> GOOD: put 'foo=bar' with P
18:42:36 <funktio> GOOD: "foo"G got "bar"
18:43:35 <funktio> Deewiant: it should be  "oof"G
18:44:58 <funktio> (or  G"foo"  if IP goes right-to-left)
18:48:41 <fizzie> Which fingerprint is that? EVAR?
18:48:57 <funktio> yes
18:49:47 <funktio> the test is fine, just the printed string is wrong :P
18:50:06 <fizzie> I have a feeling I could use key/value-style maps somewhere in fungot, but maybe sticking unrelated stuff to the environment would be horribly wrong.
18:50:06 <fungot> fizzie: this client won't crash for anything less than a kilobyte... but now i have much spare time :)
18:51:02 <fizzie> fungot: Oh, I'm sure I could stick a kilobyte of stuff in the environment just fine... but I was thinking about your language model stuff, which is several hundred megabytes. Maybe it's best to keep that as files-to-seek-around-in.
18:51:03 <fungot> fizzie: oh wait, it's fnord. :p hee. eli terveisi�!
18:51:31 <fizzie> fungot: Er, this is an international channel, don't do Finnish here.
18:51:48 <fizzie> (I don't see how that was relevant anyway.)
19:05:06 <oklopol> bad fungot! also i continued reading your and funktio's conversation with fungot=funktio for the last message
19:05:07 <fungot> oklopol: or buy a new " dodge miser" and two dozen
19:05:09 <oklopol> that was weird
19:15:07 <fizzie> fungot: And two dozen what?
19:15:07 <fungot> fizzie: i know lots of lisp stuff.
19:15:22 <fizzie> fungot: I don't really believe that.
19:15:22 <fungot> fizzie: actually trondheim is a bit restrictive to say the env is a new rule to channel rules say up to 8/ once/ fnord...
19:24:47 <AnMaster>  * Magic number avoidance...
19:24:47 <AnMaster>  */
19:24:47 <AnMaster> #define SECS_PER_MIN    60      /* seconds per minute */
19:24:48 <AnMaster> huh
19:24:51 <AnMaster> just HUH
19:25:05 <AnMaster> from /usr/src/sys/dev/speaker/spkr.c on FreeBSD
19:27:42 <tusho> AnMaster: now that is silly
19:27:48 <tusho> magical number avoidance, sure, but that is just ridiculous :D
19:27:51 <AnMaster> tusho, there are a lot more
19:27:55 <AnMaster> #define WHOLE_NOTE      4       /* quarter notes per whole note */
19:27:58 <tusho> #define ONE 1
19:28:03 <tusho> AnMaster: well, that seems reasonable
19:28:06 <AnMaster> tusho, yes
19:28:09 <AnMaster> and about 10 more
19:28:13 <AnMaster> but SECS_PER_MIN
19:28:16 <AnMaster> that is just SILLY
19:28:36 <tusho> agreed
19:29:20 <AnMaster> basically I was writing a program to convert the speaker strings to something you could play on Linux
19:29:33 <AnMaster> oh and I'm using bash just in case you wonder
19:31:59 <AnMaster> tusho, #define ONE 1 isn't that bad really.... what if they decide to swap the names of 1 and 4 (four and one that is)
19:32:01 <AnMaster> ;)
19:32:05 <tusho> :D
19:32:38 <AnMaster> tusho, a response I got in another channel on this: <@Starnestommy> I think a committee decided to officially change the length of a minute to 64 seconds yesterday
19:32:49 <tusho> *g*
19:33:06 <AnMaster>  * v1.4 by Eric S. Raymond (esr@snark.thyrsus.com) Aug 1993
19:33:07 <AnMaster>  * modified for FreeBSD by Andrew A. Chernov <ache@astral.msk.su>
19:33:07 <AnMaster>  * modified for PC98 by Kakefuda
19:33:07 <AnMaster> hm
19:33:21 <tusho> lol esr
19:33:22 <AnMaster> I wonder who should be hit over the head of those
19:33:39 <AnMaster> tusho, yeah it is FreeBSD kernel source, didn't know ESR was involved with that...
19:34:03 <tusho> well esr always deserves hitting on the head
19:34:08 <AnMaster> yeah
19:34:21 <AnMaster> but I want to hit whoever did it
19:34:46 <AnMaster>     /* this weirdness avoids floating-point arithmetic */
19:34:46 <AnMaster>     for (; sustain; sustain--)
19:34:46 <AnMaster>     {
19:34:46 <AnMaster>         /* See the BUGS section in the man page for discussion */
19:34:46 <AnMaster>         snum *= NUM_MULT;
19:34:46 <AnMaster>         sdenom *= DENOM_MULT;
19:34:48 <AnMaster>     }
19:34:50 <AnMaster> huh
19:34:54 <AnMaster> what is wrong with floating point...
19:35:14 <AnMaster> oh 1990, I guess a lot of ppl didn't have 387s back then...
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19:36:02 <AnMaster> tusho, I use dc to calculate that: dc <<< "5k 1 ${time}/d2 ${#dots}^1-2 ${#dots}^/*+p"
19:36:41 <tusho> ha
19:36:45 <AnMaster> tusho, eh?
19:36:52 <AnMaster> I do happen to like RPN...
19:36:58 <AnMaster> I know most ppl don't
19:37:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: ESR actually wrote a hell of a lot of stuff.
19:37:15 <pikhq> And I think he was actually involved with BSD in the early 90s...
19:37:15 <tusho> pikhq: Like fetchmail. Oh god fetchmail.
19:37:18 <tusho> Somebody kill me.
19:37:22 * pikhq shudders
19:37:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, we got proof for that now
19:37:34 <pikhq> So. Very. Horrid.
19:37:46 <AnMaster> I never used fetchmail, so I don't know details
19:49:06 <AnMaster>     whole = (100 * SECS_PER_MIN * WHOLE_NOTE) / DFLT_TEMPO;
19:49:09 <AnMaster> how useless
19:49:13 <AnMaster> I think 100 is a magic number
19:49:14 <AnMaster> ...
19:50:28 <AnMaster> tusho, ^
19:50:40 <tusho> :D
19:51:12 <AnMaster> well yes, it makes it into 100th seconds I think
19:51:14 <AnMaster> not sure though
19:51:33 <AnMaster> and that could change, I mean timer details could change
19:51:51 <AnMaster> modern systems using better granularity
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19:52:02 <AnMaster> while SECS_PER_MIN and WHOLE_NOTE won't change
19:52:11 <AnMaster> how silly
19:52:42 <tusho> Random noise pixels are pretty.
20:37:47 <AnMaster> http://pastebin.ca/raw/1189777
20:37:48 <AnMaster> tusho, ^
20:37:55 <AnMaster> fun eh?
20:38:03 <AnMaster> try running that script on "l2b.f+.p16a.c+.p l4mn<b.>e8a2mspg+e8c+f+8b2"
20:38:05 <tusho> Cute.
20:38:09 <AnMaster> it will print the commands you should run
20:38:12 <tusho> I can't use it, being on OS X.
20:38:12 <tusho> :P
20:38:14 <AnMaster> to get that melody
20:38:17 <AnMaster> tusho, oh
20:38:23 <tusho> Neat, though
20:38:23 <AnMaster> doesn't OS X have a beep?
20:38:31 <AnMaster> tusho, there are a few bugs
20:38:37 <AnMaster> no octave tracking support for example
20:38:44 <tusho> I don't know of any way to make the machine beep besides low-level Carbon APIs.
20:38:52 <tusho> I've only heard it beep on EFI upgrades, and that's pre-bootup.
20:39:00 <tusho> And I think even that was from the speaker.
20:39:06 <tusho> I don't think this machine HAS a pc speaker.
20:39:34 <AnMaster> tusho, write a program that is called beep -f frequency -l duration_in_milliseconds
20:39:35 <AnMaster> :D
20:39:42 <tusho> Maybe. :P
20:39:47 <AnMaster> then make sure your sleep support fractional values
20:39:52 <AnMaster> tusho, if you do that it will work
20:47:04 * Corun force pushes Mac OS X at AnMaster's Desktop
20:50:43 <AnMaster> OS is just a matter of taste
20:57:51 <AnMaster> if you are on Linux, try that script with "l2b.f+.p16a.c+.p l4mn<b.>e8a2mspg+e8c+f+8b2"
20:58:00 <AnMaster> you need dc installed
20:58:23 <AnMaster> oh and beep will need to run as root, but my command just output the commands you need to run to create the melody
20:58:42 <AnMaster> so you can verify that they are sane (just calls to sleep and beep), then run them as root
20:58:53 <AnMaster> beep -f 1975 -l 1312.50000
20:58:53 <AnMaster> sleep .25000
20:58:53 <AnMaster> beep -f 1480 -l 1312.50000
20:58:53 <AnMaster> sleep .25000
20:58:53 <AnMaster> sleep .12500
20:58:54 <AnMaster> beep -f 1760 -l 1312.50000
20:58:56 <AnMaster> stuff like that
21:04:03 <AnMaster> I think there are some issues though
21:04:11 <AnMaster> basically: pauses between processes
21:04:39 <AnMaster> for more accurate result doing the needed ioctl()s directly in a C program would probably be better
21:14:10 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:14:21 -!- oklopol has joined.
21:17:55 <AnMaster> ok it is slightly buggy
21:18:00 <AnMaster> length of pauses are wrong
21:18:01 <AnMaster> not sure why
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21:27:37 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:34:56 <tusho> IM PRETTY COOL YEA
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21:45:33 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ooh.
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21:50:12 <tusho> hi oklofok
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22:00:33 <tusho> happy australian mailman reminder day
22:06:37 <AnMaster> <tusho> happy australian mailman reminder day
22:06:38 <AnMaster> HUH?
22:06:51 <AnMaster> who makes these days up
22:07:02 <tusho> mailman reminder day is common
22:07:10 <tusho> it means "first of month"
22:07:13 <tusho> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mailman+reminder+day&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
22:07:19 <tusho> but the original agora list is hosted in australia
22:07:23 <tusho> so i got that reminder at 8pm
22:07:24 <AnMaster> Information No results found for "australian mailman reminder day".
22:07:28 <AnMaster> um
22:07:28 <tusho> so it's australian mailman reminder day
22:07:30 <AnMaster> so...
22:07:32 <tusho> AnMaster: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mailman+reminder+day&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
22:08:11 <AnMaster> is it about the *program* mailman?
22:08:19 <tusho> yes...
22:08:21 <tusho> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mailman+reminder+day&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
22:08:23 <tusho> read, god damnit
22:08:33 <tusho> i give you a goddamn link and you just neglect to actually CLICK ON IT
22:08:35 <AnMaster> [Mailman-Developers] Happy Mailman Reminder Day
22:08:35 <AnMaster> I forgot to wish all a happy Mailman Reminder Day yesterday. Do these reminders not bother everyone else? Getting a few dozen of these once a month used to ...
22:08:35 <AnMaster> mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2004-April/016708.html - 3k -
22:08:37 <AnMaster> that is hit 1
22:08:42 <AnMaster> in the link you gave
22:08:46 <tusho> EXACTLY
22:08:49 <tusho> so why the hell did you ask
22:08:49 <AnMaster> which I read
22:09:05 <tusho> you could have checked, like, the 5 other results relating to it and got a confirmation of that interpretation
22:09:09 <tusho> it would take 5 seconds
22:09:16 <tusho> but obviously i linked you to a page with irrelevant results
22:09:19 <tusho> because i found it amusing, surely
22:09:21 <AnMaster> oh
22:09:24 <AnMaster> but
22:09:25 <AnMaster> wait
22:09:28 <AnMaster> what do you mean
22:09:39 <AnMaster> I never get password reminders from my mailing lists
22:09:43 <AnMaster> even those using mailman
22:09:49 <tusho> who said password reminders
22:09:55 <tusho> (domain) mailing list memberships reminder
22:10:03 <tusho> ah, it does give you the password
22:10:04 <AnMaster> tusho, well I don't get that either
22:10:06 <tusho> still: yes you do get them
22:10:14 <tusho> AnMaster: maybe they're spam-filtered for you
22:10:14 <AnMaster> nop
22:10:18 <tusho> but you do get them
22:10:24 <AnMaster> nop
22:10:29 <AnMaster> I guess they are turned off
22:10:38 <tusho> i have never seen a list with them turned off
22:10:39 <AnMaster> let me login to admin page for supertux-devel and check
22:10:41 -!- jix has joined.
22:10:44 <AnMaster> it uses mailman
22:11:01 <AnMaster> Send password reminders to, eg, "-owner" address instead of directly to user.
22:11:01 <AnMaster> (Details for umbrella_list)
22:11:01 <AnMaster> 
22:11:01 <AnMaster> No Yes
22:11:02 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:11:02 <AnMaster> hm
22:11:04 <AnMaster> no is checked
22:11:12 <AnMaster> actually not the one
22:11:18 <AnMaster> Send monthly password reminders?
22:11:18 <AnMaster> (Details for send_reminders)
22:11:18 <AnMaster> 
22:11:18 <AnMaster> No Yes
22:11:20 <AnMaster> ah
22:11:21 <AnMaster> that is it
22:11:24 <AnMaster> no is checked there
22:11:27 <tusho> weird
22:11:28 <tusho> that's a rarity
22:11:33 <tusho> most lists have it on
22:11:34 <AnMaster> tusho, and nor does any other mailing list send it
22:11:39 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:11:39 <AnMaster> like flightgear-devel
22:11:40 <tusho> AnMaster: it's a mailman thing
22:11:43 <AnMaster> it runs on sf.net
22:11:43 <tusho> mailman is totally retarded :)
22:11:48 <AnMaster> which used mailman last I checked
22:11:49 <AnMaster> right?
22:11:59 <tusho> maybe sf.net have it changed by default
22:11:59 <AnMaster> tusho, ?
22:12:02 <tusho> that would be reasonable
22:12:10 <AnMaster> tusho, well supertux-devel use their own server
22:12:12 <tusho> but generally, other-hosted mailman lists have it on
22:12:18 <AnMaster> http://lists.lethargik.org
22:12:19 <tusho> AnMaster: yes, that's a rarity
22:12:27 <tusho> all mailman lists i've seen haev it on
22:12:48 <AnMaster> on the other hand it is possible I turned it off sometime in the beginning
22:12:56 <AnMaster> over a year ago
22:13:10 <AnMaster> probably almost 2 years since we moved from berlios crap to our own server
22:13:20 <tusho> berlios beats sourceforge
22:14:19 <AnMaster> tusho, well downtime was large
22:14:37 <tusho> AnMaster: idiomatic: 'well, there was a lot of downtime'
22:14:56 <AnMaster> tusho, as in more downtime than uptime
22:15:02 <tusho> yes
22:15:06 <tusho> but it's not idiomatic to say what you did
22:15:10 <tusho> downtime isn't something with a size
22:15:13 <AnMaster> sf.net got around 50/50 I think...
22:15:18 <tusho> it's something with a length
22:15:27 <AnMaster> ah
22:15:28 <AnMaster> true
22:15:30 <tusho> but 'there was a long downtime'means the downtime went on for a long time
22:15:38 <tusho> so you'd say 'a lot of downtime'
22:15:38 <AnMaster> tusho, it did too
22:15:45 <AnMaster> it went on for days sometimes
22:15:45 <tusho> AnMaster: 'there was a lot of long downtime'
22:15:45 <tusho> :P
22:15:59 <AnMaster> a week with svn having a filled up disk
22:16:06 <AnMaster> so no project could commit
22:18:13 <AnMaster> tusho, I think this mailman install may have this as default
22:18:19 <tusho> yea probably
22:18:22 <AnMaster> as a list created just about a month ago
22:18:29 <AnMaster> have the "don't send" option
22:18:34 <AnMaster> and I didn't create it
22:18:36 <tusho> go subscribe to a random mailman list AnMaster and filter everything to be deleted
22:18:38 <tusho> just for the reminders
22:18:38 <tusho> :D
22:18:43 <AnMaster> tusho, huh
22:18:46 <AnMaster> don't want that
22:18:55 <tusho> they are important to an internet user's life AnMaster!
22:19:10 <AnMaster> tusho, I do get reminders from one list though... freebsd-security
22:19:11 <AnMaster> that is all
22:19:16 <AnMaster> it contains the password every time
22:19:17 <tusho> yayyy, there you go then
22:19:18 <AnMaster> not very secure...
22:19:23 <tusho> well duh
22:19:27 <tusho> mailman doesn't encrypt passwords
22:19:32 <tusho> it is also retarded in other aspects
22:19:50 <tusho> AnMaster: http://www.jwz.org/doc/mailman.html
22:20:11 <AnMaster> look I didn't set mailman up for supertux
22:20:15 <AnMaster> I don't have that access
22:20:20 <tusho> i know
22:20:21 <AnMaster> I do have admin access to the lists though
22:20:22 <tusho> just saying
22:20:52 <AnMaster> and I have ssh access to the web bit for supertux.lethargik.org, but not lists.lethargik.org
22:21:18 <tusho> AnMaster: also http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
22:21:36 <AnMaster> tusho, that one I read before
22:21:44 <AnMaster> it is a setting in mailman anywyay
22:21:49 <AnMaster> anyway*
22:21:53 <tusho> AnMaster: 'I have read that one before'
22:22:06 <AnMaster> tusho, yes I remember it
22:22:18 <tusho> AnMaster: i was being pedantic with your english :P
22:23:01 <AnMaster> tusho, isn't both correct? just one non ideomatic
22:23:12 <tusho> *idiomatic, and yea both are correct
22:23:15 <tusho> but one is very awkward :P
22:23:24 <AnMaster> well, it isn't idiomatic Swedish either
22:23:31 <AnMaster> so no clue why I said that
22:23:32 <tusho> but you are not talking swedish
22:23:32 <tusho> :D
22:23:42 <AnMaster> however I tend to talk very convoluted Swedish
22:23:50 <AnMaster> so I guess I'm just like that
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22:27:57 <oklopol> that one i've read before
22:28:10 <tusho> oklopol: yes, more idiomatic but not as much as mine
22:29:06 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure it's idiomatic to emphasize "that one"
22:29:22 <oklopol> and i'm pretty sure that's what AnMaster was doing
22:29:24 <tusho> not rly
22:29:25 <tusho> it depends
22:29:41 <oklopol> well, perhaps not in this case
22:29:52 <oklopol> as there's nothing that he *hasn't* read before, in context
22:30:01 <AnMaster> huh? I *like* convoluted language
22:30:09 <oklopol> me too
22:30:18 <tusho> AnMaster: it makes you harder to understand properly, certainly :P
22:30:23 <AnMaster> I make a point of using convoluted and overly formal language in a everyday context
22:31:03 <AnMaster> thus creating some confusion in any individuals within close distance XD
22:31:10 <AnMaster> (no probably not correct either)
22:31:24 <AnMaster> (or at least *very* awkward)
22:31:31 <AnMaster> tusho, or?
22:31:45 <tusho> incorrect
22:31:47 <AnMaster> wait, "a certain amount" would be better than "some"
22:31:51 <tusho> you don't create confusion in individuals
22:31:53 <AnMaster> ah
22:31:54 <tusho> you make individuals confused
22:32:06 <tusho> also, 'an everyday'
22:32:19 <AnMaster> tusho, yes I know a/an rules
22:32:25 <AnMaster> that was just a not very well pressed key
22:32:32 <AnMaster> I think I need to clean this keyboard
22:32:32 <tusho> :p
22:32:38 <AnMaster> the n key kind of resists more
22:32:42 <AnMaster> when you press it down
22:32:53 <tusho> *sniff* w...why don't you pick on keys YOUR SIZE?
22:32:54 <tusho> :'(
22:33:01 <AnMaster> tusho, ?
22:33:17 <AnMaster> huh
22:33:20 <AnMaster> I don't get it
22:33:26 <tusho> i was being the n key
22:33:26 <tusho> :P
22:34:21 <AnMaster> hm
22:34:31 <AnMaster> well a full size keyboard is kind of small IMO
22:34:34 <AnMaster> I got large hands
22:34:51 -!- LinuS has quit (Connection timed out).
22:34:52 <AnMaster> so no keyboard or mouse is really comfortable
22:34:56 <AnMaster> and laptops... just eww
22:35:06 <AnMaster> now night
22:35:15 <tusho> night
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22:36:30 <oklopol> i love laps
22:36:35 <oklopol> i love tops
22:36:38 <oklopol> i love laptops
22:40:24 <tusho> i love oklo
22:40:26 <tusho> i love pol
22:40:27 <tusho> i love oklopol
22:42:32 <oklopol> :O
22:43:10 <tusho> oklopol: its true
22:43:24 <tusho> it was the only way I could think to express my eternal love for you
22:47:37 <oklopol> optbot!
22:47:37 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | hehe.
22:47:41 <oklopol> optbot!
22:47:41 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Which I guess is the same template as "My new guy's . . ."..
22:47:50 <tusho> optbot!
22:47:51 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | a bit.
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