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00:15:08 <oklopol> sleep night tired tired ->
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03:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | make sure u add some easter eggs.
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05:28:31 <oklopol> 02:31:30 psygnisfive: i like oklopol is tired, so tusho leaves. <<< what does this sentence?
05:28:44 <oklopol> (sentence was the verb there.)
05:45:36 <fizzie> It sentences you to be liked by psygnisfive.
05:45:44 <fizzie> A fate worse than death, maybe?
05:47:48 <oklopol> quite so indeed very much, yes.
05:48:11 <oklopol> gotta leave, time for some design and analysis of algorithms
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06:47:29 <fizzie> Your interactions, they seem non-progressive.
06:48:27 <oklopol> that was the funniest thing in days
06:49:34 <oklopol> quitting jokes are always funny
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07:03:48 <oerjan> optbot: a veritable programming omelet
07:08:58 <fizzie> Can you make a programming omelette without breaking a few languages?
07:09:16 <oerjan> only, as i implied, by having enough easter eggs
07:10:39 <oerjan> if your languages _are_ your easter eggs, you are probably in trouble
07:12:50 <oerjan> i guess this is one place such trouble is to be expected
07:13:09 <fizzie> For some reason I though it was oklopol you were chatting with.
07:13:30 <oerjan> but we already established oklopol is you
07:13:42 <oerjan> well you did while i was away
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07:25:00 <oklopol> oerjan: nono, fizzie is the other one
07:25:24 <oklopol> not enough languages have easter eggs
07:25:32 <oklopol> well, probably even interpreters
07:29:20 <AnMaster> <oklopol> well there's a swedish guy on the chan
07:29:20 <AnMaster> <oklopol> actually not anymore
07:29:37 <fizzie> There's one in MS's QBasic, apparently.
07:30:12 <oerjan> it must be hard to be a swedish guy in MS's QBasic
07:30:29 <fizzie> Yes, I don't envy him.
07:31:45 <AnMaster> in fact I never ever coded in BASIC
07:32:31 <oerjan> of course not, you just live there
07:32:46 <oerjan> hard to code from the _inside_ of a PL
07:32:56 <AnMaster> I began with AppleScript on OS 7, not with BASIC
07:32:58 <oerjan> unless it is really good at reflection
07:33:19 <oerjan> applescript would be better for a swede, i hear it can be translated
07:34:03 <AnMaster> so must have been someone else
07:34:17 <oerjan> wouldn't you have to understand finnish for that?
07:35:10 <AnMaster> well I don't understand Finnish
07:37:01 <oklopol> also you don't need to know finnish there
07:37:07 <AnMaster> too early in the morning for that
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08:42:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about new thread in t not being moved in F98... Well that depends on at what point you do your "move ip forward":
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09:19:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, I assume that PPC you tested on got inet_pton(), right?
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09:44:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, you soon won't need that patch to src/fingerprints/SOCK/SOCK.c then
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09:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i'll do that.
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10:17:55 <Deewiant> 's fairly obvious to me that it's meant to be done such that you execute first
10:18:14 <Deewiant> and you're meant to execute that
10:18:55 <fizzie> Also the spec: "instructions encountered by each IP are dealth with -- and each IP *then* moves as specified"
10:20:07 <fizzie> It sure sounds to me like the new thread should execute that 't'.
10:21:01 <Deewiant> it's not impossible to make useful programs even that way (just p something other than a t on top of the t)
10:21:10 <Deewiant> but I doubt it was the intent anyways
10:21:31 <Deewiant> and I think you'd spawn a minimum of 2 new threads that way
10:21:47 <fizzie> Well, you could have one additional thread doing the 'p'ing.
10:22:36 <fizzie> The one which is executed just after the original thread hitting the 't'.
10:23:11 <fizzie> Would be quite tricky to time it right, though.
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10:26:01 <fizzie> Yes, but if you already earlier have generated the IP to do that p.
10:26:28 <fizzie> So that it executes during the same tick when IP 0 hits the t.
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10:29:07 <Deewiant> yeah, but you need to have hit a t to do that anyway :-)
10:29:23 <fizzie> Yes, but only the first t needs to generate two new threads.
10:29:38 <fizzie> And the "spare" one can then do the 'p'ing for all the rest of the 't's. :p
10:31:48 <fizzie> It's still saner than the "all threads share the common stack" concurrency there was in either Befunge-96 or Funge-97. Although I don't remember where I read that from.
10:40:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, I never seen befunge-96 or funge-97 specs
10:41:22 <fizzie> I can't seem to find them right now either, but I have a strong recollection that somewhere I've seen it mentioned that in concurrent Befunge-96 the stack is shared between threads.
10:44:06 <fizzie> Heh, the only reference I could find right now was #esoteric log for 2004-05-27, where I said the same thing, and didn't remember whether it was '96 or '97 then either.
10:46:56 <fizzie> I guess it is possible I have imagined the whole thing. Maybe it was on the esolang mailing list, I don't know where my archives of that are.
11:06:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, SOCK and the -W flags bit now fixed
11:15:15 <fizzie> Yes, I haven't had the time to look at that yet either.
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12:45:40 <tusho> have you been here as ais523?
12:45:42 <tusho> if so, for how long?
12:45:56 <ais523_> and I wasn't here yesterday
12:46:02 <ais523_> although I didn't spend all yesterday asleep
12:46:14 <ais523_> I spent much of it working on the linker for gcc-bf
12:46:15 <tusho> ais523: so how long has this been here?
12:46:24 <tusho> were you actually here until ais523_ joined?
12:46:30 <tusho> if not, who is ais523
12:46:39 <ais523_> I didn't even notice my nick has changed
12:46:48 <tusho> ais523_: so how long have you been here?
12:46:51 <tusho> since 12:03 at least
12:46:54 <tusho> since that's when I joined :P
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12:47:05 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
12:47:07 <tusho> i normally beat you these days
12:47:34 <ais523> I decided to come in early, needed to beat a deadline on Agora, and there was lots of noise due to work outside our house anyway
12:48:21 <ais523> incidentally, I think I may be writing the world's first linker that's written in Perl and uses regexen for just about everything
12:48:46 <ais523> also I'm probably the first person who just mapped ar to tar and has .a == .tar.gz for object file libraries
12:49:12 <tusho> ais523: why not just ar
12:49:14 <tusho> ar is just a regular archive format
12:49:19 <tusho> and i dunno why you need gzip
12:49:22 <ais523> tusho: yes, I know, but I'm storing large amounts of text
12:49:26 <ais523> the object files are written in asm
12:49:32 <tusho> that's more esoteric.
12:49:45 <ais523> does .ar have a gunzip and pipe to stdout option, though
12:49:54 <tusho> ais523: pipe to something in /tmp
12:50:04 <tusho> and just do it in two stages
12:50:08 <ais523> tusho: yuck, libc is about 3 megabytes on my system
12:50:17 <ais523> I don't want to create a 3MB temporary file every compile
12:50:22 <tusho> ais523: pipe to /dev/stdout
12:50:27 <tusho> something like /dev/fd/0
12:50:36 <tusho> ais523: then | that
12:50:39 <ais523> and both those names are correct, except stdout is /dev/fd/1
12:50:47 <ais523> stdin is 0 and stderr is 2
12:50:48 <tusho> ah, use /dev/stdout for clearness then
12:50:52 <tusho> (esoteric clearness is amusing)
12:51:02 <ais523> I use /dev/fd/ when golfing because it's 1 char shorter
12:51:43 <ais523> (it's the only way I know to do input in m4, use directives to change the syntax of the language appropriately then use include /dev/fd/0 to include the input)
12:52:56 <ais523> I only need to implement close _execve _exit _fork_r fread fstat fstat64 fwrite getpid isatty kill link lseek open rename sbrk stat strtod unlink write now to get newlib fully working, it can implement the whole of libc in terms of those
12:53:11 <ais523> _fork_r I'll use the DJGPP method I think
12:53:25 <ais523> (although possibly I could write a Brainfork version with genuine forking?)
12:53:41 <tusho> make forking work in brainfuck
12:53:52 <tusho> (for processes A and B just execute instructions as ABABABABAB etc)
12:54:02 <ais523> tusho: that would make things more complicated (although not excessively more complicated) so I'll do it later
12:54:13 <tusho> ais523: yay, i like "I'll do it later"
12:54:15 <ais523> the main problem being that I'd need multiple stacks and multiple sets of registers
12:54:18 <tusho> it signifies that things will be crazier in the future
12:54:21 <ais523> tusho: once I've got the core working
12:54:46 <ais523> hmm... something must be wrong with my newlib dependencies script
12:54:47 <tusho> ais523: well, you've just pwned GregorR in like a fifth of the time
12:55:07 <ais523> I'm reasonably sure it's read/write it needs not fread/fwrite
12:55:14 <tusho> i mean, c2bf took months
12:55:17 <ais523> because it does all the stdio streams stuff itself
12:55:18 <tusho> and can barely do anything
12:55:38 <ais523> tusho: probably more efficient than this, though, stdio overhead is massive
12:56:10 <tusho> ais523: but his was just a syntax layer over bf.
12:56:14 <tusho> it didn't even have stdio
12:56:28 <ais523> well I'm even trying to get setjmp and varargs working
12:56:44 <ais523> if you join #esoteric-blah, I'll paste you my setjmp and longjmp there
12:56:56 <ais523> gcc has __builtin_setjmp and __builtin_longjmp which also work but are slower
12:57:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Excess Flood).
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12:58:48 <ais523> ugh, freenode things 96 lines is flooding
12:59:22 <tusho> every good client automatically rate-limits
12:59:44 <ais523> tusho: Konqueror warns instead
12:59:46 <ais523> but it warns even for 2-line pastes
12:59:53 <tusho> itym konversation.
13:00:02 <tusho> but yea it should do both
13:01:18 <tusho> ais523: you are batshit insane
13:02:30 <tusho> ais523: was that purposefully nonsensical?
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13:05:28 <ais523_> ais523 appears to be able to receive messages but not send them atm
13:05:50 <tusho> ais523_: Can you see this?
13:05:52 <ais523_> ais523's sending too, but doesn't seem to be showing up in-channel
13:06:08 <tusho> ais523_: probably because it's flooding #esoteric-blah
13:06:59 <ais523_> oh well, using netcat for a bit is a nice change
13:07:15 <ais523_> how far did ais523 get in #esoteric-blah?
13:07:26 <ais523> I posted the whole of longjmp in #esoteric-blah, anyway, a bit at a time
13:07:38 <ais523> that should give you some idea of what ABI looks like
13:07:54 <ais523> tusho: that took me about 10 minutes to write
13:07:54 <ais523_> yay, ais523's coming through now, just very slowly
13:07:58 <ais523> ABI isn't that hard, it's like writing in PEBBLE
13:08:10 <ais523> I mean, asm looks bad, but it's not that bad when you get used to it
13:08:12 <ais523_> this should give me some record ping times
13:08:14 <ais523> especially if you invented the command-set yourself
13:08:35 <tusho> ais523: here is what i saw
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13:08:56 <tusho> <tusho> ais523: you are batshit insane
13:08:56 <tusho> <ais523> yes, I do
13:08:56 <tusho> <tusho> ais523: was that purposefully nonsensical?
13:09:08 <tusho> your lag results in dada.
13:09:28 <ais523_> wait, you won't have been able to see that
13:09:57 <ais523_> ais523 just said "tusho: that was badly out of sync, I thought I was replying to an entirely different comment"
13:10:07 <tusho> that's why i said lag->data
13:10:49 <ais523_> Freenode should really give some clue as to what a sensible flood rate is...
13:11:16 <tusho> ais523_: your client should adequately ratelimit it
13:11:30 <ais523_> that's annoying, I like Konversation in other ways
13:11:35 <tusho> even colloquy ratelimits
13:11:38 <ais523_> even though it has all sorts of weird quirks
13:11:46 <tusho> ais523_: Perhaps there is a plugin for konversation to do it.
13:12:00 <ais523_> it's nicer to use than chatzilla which I used to use on the SunOS systems here
13:12:13 <ais523_> (anything to get a nice Unix command-set rather than Windows...)
13:12:38 <tusho> ais523_: you do not respond to VERSION
13:13:08 <ais523_> tusho: yes I do, just very slowly
13:13:35 <ais523_> tusho: I wouldn't be surprised if ais523 wasn't responding at the moment
13:14:32 <ais523_> tusho: pinging me every second is annoying, it's hard to type with CTCPs turning up in the middle of what I'm typing
13:14:36 <tusho> ais523_: you oughta respond to my pings
13:14:57 <ais523_> I sent them all in the same CTCP, if your client can't handle that it's its problem
13:15:20 <tusho> ais523_: TIME != PIN
13:15:20 <fizzie> There is the flood-control algorithm of RFC2813; not everyone might do it like that, but it should be reasonably safe if you stay well below that limit.
13:15:26 <tusho> not showing up here
13:15:28 <tusho> ais523_: Is that in the spec?
13:15:38 <ais523_> ais523_ tries to come up with a way to do /ignore using grep
13:15:51 <ais523_> tusho: yes, but nobody handles ctcps except at the start of a line
13:16:24 <ais523_> yay, ais523 just received the pings it sent 11 minutes ago
13:16:30 <ais523> tusho: that was badly out of sync
13:16:34 <ais523> I thought I was replying to an entirely different comment
13:16:51 <ais523_> [13:16] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 776 seconds.
13:17:08 <ais523_> my longest ever genuine ping time!
13:17:26 <ais523_> tusho: I can't tell a CTCP from a /msg over netcat
13:17:35 <ais523_> so I'm treating all your CTCPs like /msgs at the moment
13:17:38 <tusho> ais523_: i'll put CTCP in front of them
13:17:43 <tusho> alternatively: cat -v, dude
13:18:25 <ais523> yay, ais523 is working again
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13:19:14 <tusho> i am going to make a shell client that just seds and greps an nc
13:19:39 <tusho> it'll even do nick highlighting
13:19:44 <ais523_> tusho: that's almost a good idea, responding to pings is the hardest thing to do there
13:20:00 <ais523_> unless you're retyping the pings by hand
13:20:17 <ais523_> on Freenode you can prevent the server pinging you by pinging it proactively, that doesn't work on other networks though
13:20:21 <tusho> i need to call it something which reflects how much it hates you
13:20:39 <tusho> ais523_: yes, that was my joke
13:20:56 <ais523> btw what do you think of setjmp.S and longjmp.S?
13:21:03 <tusho> ais523_: i don't get them
13:21:05 <ais523> I would just use .s but newlib prefers .S for some reason
13:21:27 -!- ais523_ has quit ("have I been connected with this long enough to get a genuine quit message?").
13:22:17 <fizzie> Isn't .S gcc's way of specifying "assembler source but with C preprocessor in front of it"?
13:22:34 <ais523> newlib was using the C preprocessor
13:22:39 <tusho> bastard's slogan will be "fuck goddamn"
13:22:42 <tusho> "bastard: fuck goddamn"
13:23:11 <ais523> cpp would be useful for writing ABI really, it can be very repetitive
13:23:18 <ais523> no mov instruction for register to register you see
13:23:24 <ais523> it's all done with transfer-additions
13:23:36 <ais523> which is basically [->+<]
13:24:27 <tusho> ais523: have you seen my collection of fungot poetry
13:24:28 <fungot> tusho: i have ideas but i am fnord
13:24:37 <ais523> there's one right there!
13:24:43 <ais523> and I haven't seen it collected, no
13:25:11 <tusho> ais523: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1192758
13:25:23 <tusho> you can see the progression there, short, brief poetry to verbose yarns with incredibly long lines that are syntaxless
13:25:28 <tusho> and then a slight return into minimalism
13:25:39 <tusho> fungot's last line suggests his new poetry will be incredibly tiny, one line works
13:25:39 <fungot> tusho: not sure if that makes any sense
13:26:29 <ais523> wait, I thought you said the last line there...
13:26:32 <ais523> not paying much attention
13:26:50 <tusho> "not quite sure why you would use car that many times. basically everyone seems to think that i shall never hear a poem frightful as a bear, that keeps pooping primes."
13:26:52 <tusho> is just brilliance
13:27:00 <ais523> what the fuck you are doing? /leave scheme /join java? is there such a thing
13:27:07 <ais523> probably my favourite line out of the lot
13:27:48 <tusho> i like "one of my formally fnord questions consists of ordering 25 functions by their asymptotic behaviour. :("
13:27:52 <fizzie> Huh, the prime number pooping bear site has disappeared? :/ It was a Finnish site and everything.
13:28:08 <tusho> fizzie: aw, i was hoping it thought of a bear that poops primes by itself
13:28:17 <ais523> counting to ten modulo two before punching him? <--- if only everyone did that, "I'm going to punch you when I reach ten. 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1..." the world would be a more peaceful place
13:28:18 <tusho> and then decided that a poem can be as frightful as that
13:28:26 <tusho> and how people think that he'd never see a poem as frightful
13:28:36 <tusho> ais523: haha, totally
13:28:48 <fizzie> Nope, there was a website with a picture of a bear, plus a Javascript primality tester, and the prime numbers fell out of the bear's... rear end, you know.
13:28:58 <tusho> fizzie: that is... beautiful
13:29:32 <ais523> I like the asymptotic behaviour quote too though
13:29:42 <tusho> ais523: probably just a verbatim sentence
13:29:44 <ais523> even though it's likely verbatim from /scheme apart from the fnord
13:29:46 <tusho> with one rare word replaced with fnord
13:29:58 <tusho> ais523: /leave scheme /join java
13:30:06 <fizzie> http://informationnation.blogspot.com/2005/01/numbers-up-wazoo.html has a picture of it, but the link is dead.
13:30:17 <ais523> tusho: I already posted that, I'll post it again though because I like it so much
13:30:23 <tusho> ais523: yes, i know
13:30:25 <ais523> <fungot> what the fuck you are doing? /leave scheme /join java? is there such a thing
13:30:25 <fungot> ais523: it allows sideeffects.
13:30:50 <ais523> fizzie: is it in Wayback?
13:31:13 <tusho> http://web.archive.org/web/20061209081231/http://members.surfeu.fi/kklaine/tpnsb/poopbear.html
13:31:15 <tusho> needs IE, it seems
13:31:31 <tusho> http://www.primenumbershittingbear.com/ is squatted
13:31:35 <ais523> wait, I need 2 support to beh nowadays, don't I?
13:31:41 <ais523> tusho: wtf would someone squat that/
13:31:55 <tusho> ais523: it was registered, apparently
13:32:01 <tusho> bots scan the 'recently expired' list
13:32:04 <tusho> and basically buy all of them
13:32:11 <tusho> then sell them for ridiculous prices
13:32:15 <tusho> thus fucking over anyone who forgets to renew
13:32:36 <tusho> anyway, even though that wayback link is from 2006
13:32:39 <tusho> the news update is from 2003
13:32:44 <tusho> it'll have been squatted for years
13:32:51 <ais523> well, some clever domain name registrar could make millions by registering a huge number of sites to themselves for a couple of days, then putting them on the recently expired list
13:33:02 <ais523> and getting a fortune for all the bots buying from them
13:33:12 <tusho> ais523: probably illegal
13:33:25 <fizzie> I think it ran in at least some firefox version; the archive.org version seems a bit brokened though.
13:35:12 <fizzie> And actually the "asymptotic behaviour" quote was a #esoteric comment by SimonRC in 2006-12-03: the fnord is "assessed".
13:36:51 * ais523 puts a fungot quote in eir sig
13:36:52 <fungot> ais523: but i think there's a simple way of minimizing cache misses otherwise
13:36:55 -!- ais523 has left (?).
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13:37:31 <ais523> probably better take it out again, though, it could offend someone in theory
13:38:00 <ais523> I replaced it with a 99 bottles of beer program
13:38:05 <ais523> written in HQ9+ so it fits in a sig
13:38:27 <tusho> the only people it'd offend are complete prudes
13:38:42 <tusho> fizzie: assessed is surely more common
13:38:46 <ais523> well, I do to some extent, I don't like offending prudes because I may need favours from them later
13:39:18 <ais523> wtf? someone turned one of the reader comments from an MFD comic into a Flash game
13:39:36 <tusho> @logreading prudes: now playing wolfgang amadeus mozart - leck mich im arsch
13:39:39 <fizzie> tusho: Not in my logs:
13:39:41 <fizzie> fis@hactar:~/irclogs$ grep assessed freenode/#esoteric/* freenode/#scheme/* ircnet/#douglasadams/* | wc -l
13:39:55 <ais523> fizzie: 'twill be a lot more than 1 now...
13:40:23 <ais523> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Magenta-Kong.aspx
13:40:25 <fizzie> Well, it _is_ common _now_. That log-place doesn't get updated except by manual rsyncing from the actual host I run my client on every now and then.
13:40:44 <ais523> I don't have Flash installed here because it seems to be the biggest security hole in all 3 major OSs, which is saying something
13:41:04 <fizzie> Now it's 4, so if I ever rebuild that language model again, fungot will have learned a new word. Yay.
13:41:05 <fungot> fizzie: so no exlusive or either. must be all right if i guess that
13:41:07 <tusho> ais523: why would anyone respect mfd like that
13:41:23 <ais523> tusho: bashing MfD has a really strong following nowadays
13:41:29 <tusho> ais523: but that's not bashing
13:41:32 <ais523> the MfD-basher community really churn out some interesting stuff
13:42:00 <tusho> if I ever meet mark bowytz in person...
13:42:22 <ais523> ...and they're allowing text comments on it!
13:42:36 <tusho> pics or it didn't happen
13:42:38 <ais523> knowing Alex I expected em to allow only comments in the form of Flash games
13:43:40 <tusho> [[Sorry folks - no MFD Extra from me today - no way am I going do anything that might steal Matt C.'s spotlight (I know you're all disappointed) ]]
13:43:52 <tusho> you take a nice good holiday
13:44:16 <ais523> anyway MfD is a lot better nowadays than it used to be, which isn't saying much
13:44:54 <ais523> <Google> Note: There is no working Chromium-based browser on Linux. Although many Chromium submodules build under Linux and a few unit tests pass, all that runs is a command-line "all tests pass" executable.
13:45:14 <ais523> in other words, nothing works except the testsuite, which reports that everything is fine...
13:45:20 <tusho> all the internals work
13:45:24 <tusho> there just isn't a frontend UI
13:45:35 <ais523> yes, I thought it was funnier when I put it that way, though
13:46:08 <tusho> ais523: oh, and they fixed the eula
13:46:12 <tusho> you can try it under wine now.
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13:47:04 <ais523> <Google> You need a JavaScript-capable browser to download this software. Click here for instructions on how to enable JavaScript in your browser.
13:47:05 <tusho> ais523: and yes, the custom window chrome is ugly but they actually had to do it, the default XP chrome didn't let them paint in the right place
13:47:12 <tusho> the vista chrome lets them, though:
13:47:13 <tusho> http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/google_chrome_beta_07.jpg
13:47:15 <tusho> so it looks a lot nicer
13:47:20 <tusho> and apparently os x lets them too
13:47:53 <tusho> ais523: probably for their OS detection code
13:48:42 <ais523> tusho: you can paint outside the client area on Windows, I did it for my decimal clock program
13:48:52 <tusho> ais523: there's some specific reason that i don't know
13:48:52 <ais523> all sorts of weird things break if you aren't careful though
13:48:57 <tusho> but they couldn't get it to work right
13:49:08 <tusho> and i'm going to go out on a limb here and say that google probably know, ais523
13:49:10 <tusho> and there was a problem anyway
13:49:17 <fizzie> Even with Google's superintelligent space monkeys, they couldn't make it work!
13:49:21 <tusho> it seems...likely.
13:49:33 <ais523> tusho: my guess is that's what they are doing, but it overwrites XP's theming and so they have to simulate it themselves
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13:54:39 <ais523> tusho: I didn't agree to the EULA in the end, I read the source of the webpage to see where it downloaded from and just downloaded directly
13:54:55 <tusho> ais523: you've agreed to it anyway
13:55:04 <tusho> all stuff has a clause saying that by downloading & using the software you agree to the eula
13:55:07 <ais523> that was after telling Konqueror to pretend to be IE6 so that I could get at the Windows download
13:55:11 <ais523> tusho: yes but I didn't agree to that clause
13:55:17 <tusho> ais523: it's always outside of the eula
13:55:21 <tusho> in some other area of fineprint
13:55:29 <ais523> tusho: well I didn't agree to that fineprint either
13:55:34 <tusho> ais523: you can't do that
13:55:43 <tusho> they only let you download it on the condition that you accept them
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13:57:27 <tusho> ais523_: mibbit in chrome?
13:57:35 <ais523_> Konversation inside sandbox
13:57:45 <tusho> ais523_: your username and realname is chromewine
13:57:48 <ais523_> I'm not the sort of person who runs random executables with access to everything...
13:58:00 <ais523_> tusho: yes, that's the sandbox name
13:58:13 <ais523_> this has Internet access and not much else
13:58:22 <ais523_> I figured that a browser would want Internet access...
13:58:26 <tusho> ais523_: does it have the neccessary windows libs for chrome...
13:59:56 <ais523_> nah, it doesn't run at all under Wine
14:00:05 <ais523_> Google probably check for that, knowing them
14:00:10 <ais523_> anyway, off to delete the sandbox...
14:00:15 <tusho> it works for some people
14:00:18 <tusho> i've seen screenshots
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14:00:23 <tusho> so they definitely don't check for wine
14:00:27 <tusho> why would they, anyway?
14:00:31 <tusho> i don't see how that's a googley-thing to do
14:00:50 <ais523> because they know it wouldn't work and don't want a massive crash?
14:01:03 <tusho> then how come it works for loads of people
14:01:14 <ais523> probably I have Wine set up wrong for it
14:01:24 <ais523> or they got some separate Windows libraries for it from somewhere
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14:05:53 * tusho the hard part with bastard is making it talk back to nc
14:05:56 <tusho> the hard part with bastard is making it talk back to nc
14:06:31 <ais523> apparently Chrome has 1% of the browser market already
14:06:34 <ais523> which is pretty impressive
14:06:48 <ais523> that means it's beating all of Linux combined...
14:07:56 <ais523> IE7 at 46.8%, IE6 at 25.2%, IE8 at 0.22%
14:08:36 <ais523> Firefox at 19.7%, Safari at 6.4%, Opera at 0.74% are the other ones used often enough to show up on the statistics
14:11:26 <ais523> OK, this is great, apparently the major UI guideline behind Chrome is "Content not chrome", which makes sense, but contradicts their name somewhat...
14:14:22 <ais523> ah, I am still online, occasionally I drop off the Internet and don't notice for hours, still typing random monologues into IRC...
14:14:54 <tusho> ais523: the point is that the web app provides the chrome
14:15:01 <tusho> and the browser stays out of the way
14:15:06 <tusho> so Google Chrome lets you access the "real" chrome
14:15:07 <ais523> I agree with the design principle
14:15:14 <ais523> it's just that the name's a bit ironic....
14:15:17 <tusho> ais523: i'm just explaining how the name is actually fitting
14:15:29 <tusho> they're helping the user see the _real_ chrome
14:15:57 <ais523> such as a page which looks like a normal black-and-white unstyled webpage whose background changes colour when you mouse over the links?
14:17:02 <ais523> hmm... one evil-ish thing Google are doing with Chrome is basing it on a BSD-licenced open-source project and then distributing a binary that's not compiled from the sources they give
14:17:15 <tusho> ais523: how do you know it's not compiled from those sources...
14:17:16 <ais523> which is really annoying to people like me, it makes it so hard to just look at things and fix thigns
14:17:26 <ais523> tusho: well there are changes in it somewhere
14:17:30 <tusho> ais523: how do you know
14:17:31 <ais523> or it would just have the same name
14:17:46 <tusho> google tends to give its oepn source projects different names
14:17:47 <ais523> they could have just changed a few string constants, but given that they're going to all that trouble they probably changed more
14:17:48 <tusho> to the actual products
14:18:04 <tusho> chrome IS built from the chromium sources
14:18:16 <ais523> but with modifications, almost certaibly
14:18:25 <ais523> the chromium sources will be involved somewhere, obviously
14:18:25 <tusho> ais523: eagerly awaiting evidence
14:18:31 <tusho> none given so far, just a blanket assertation
14:18:36 <tusho> currently not believing.
14:18:44 <ais523> I don't know for certain, I just think it's a lot more likely than the alternative
14:18:51 <tusho> what. that they open sourced the browser?
14:19:16 <ais523> tusho: that the non-open-source download with an EULA before you can even download it is exactly the same as an open-sourced BSD version
14:19:30 <ais523> why bother putting an EULA on an entirely open-source browser?
14:19:35 <tusho> ais523: um, firefox 3.
14:20:00 <tusho> http://www.toad.com/gnu/sysadmin/index.html#firefox-eula-sux
14:20:48 <tusho> *CONSPICUOUS SILENCE*
14:20:57 <ais523> tusho: I've never seen an EULA on Firefox, obviously there's one in that tarball
14:21:04 <tusho> ais523: no, there is
14:21:05 <ais523> but why when everyone redistributing it just takes it out?
14:21:09 <tusho> it's just that distros pre-install it
14:21:10 <tusho> so you never see it.
14:21:16 <ais523> tusho: nor agree to it
14:21:19 <ais523> which is the important point here
14:21:20 <tusho> ais523: not the point.
14:21:25 <tusho> "why bother putting an EULA on an entirely open-source browser?"
14:21:26 <ais523> is the point, definitely
14:21:31 <tusho> ergo your argument for it being modified because of that
14:21:50 <ais523> well I think putting one on Firefox 3 is also ridiculous, because anyone could just edit it out
14:21:59 <tusho> ais523: yes, but are you saying that the firefox binaries are modified too?
14:22:09 <tusho> so you have no argument
14:22:23 <ais523> I'm going by name, really, here...
14:22:37 <tusho> yes, because google always do something evil because they are a corporation
14:22:40 <tusho> oh wait...mozilla corporation
14:22:50 <ais523> and I would have a priori suspected Firefox to be modified if it showed me an EULA...
14:23:03 <tusho> ais523: why don't you ask in #chromium?
14:23:08 <tusho> Real chrome developers are in there. Tons of them.
14:23:11 <ais523> interesting idea, presumably it exists by now
14:23:22 <tusho> and all the ops are chrome developers.
14:24:19 <ais523> well I'm there now, reading the FAQ first before I say anything though
14:25:55 <ais523> I learn Web manners on Usenet...
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14:26:55 <ais523> ah, I found Wine's entry on Chrome, there's a lot of magic needed to make it work under Wine
14:27:23 <tusho> ais523: are you going to ask #chromium now?
14:28:35 <ais523> I asked, no response yet
14:28:47 <tusho> you asked 60 seconds ago
14:28:55 <tusho> are you purposefully being impatient?
14:29:00 <ais523> yes, some channels respond instantly but apparently it wasn't one of those
14:29:09 <ais523> I'm just classifying channels by wait length
14:29:13 <tusho> just the copyrighted artwork
14:29:22 <ais523> hmm... so it's a Firefox/Iceweasel-type distinction
14:29:31 <tusho> no, I believe Chromium is built as "Chrome" too
14:29:34 <tusho> just without the icon
14:29:53 <tusho> ais523: of course, it's google. they're probably lying, right
14:29:54 <ais523> tusho: this is the point where we both claim to have been right...
14:29:59 <ais523> and no, I believe that
14:30:10 <ais523> it's just at this point I'm pretty sure we'll both claim the evidence backs up our point of view
14:30:13 <tusho> well, I was right in that no, they haven't done anything evil and changed code
14:30:16 <ais523> so let's just drop the topic here
14:30:17 <tusho> they've just patched in artwork
14:30:22 <tusho> but you're right that there are modifications
14:30:26 <tusho> just not the kind you expected
14:30:28 <ais523> ah, I consider patched-in artwork to be changed code, really
14:30:37 <tusho> and certainly not evil if you ask me
14:30:46 <ais523> I wasn't accusing them of being evil, necessarily
14:31:11 <ais523> BTW there are direct links to the installer all over the place, so it's easy enough to download the code without even knowing it has an EULA...
14:32:04 <ais523> anyway my wine isn't new enough to run it, so I'll just wait for a Linux version for the time being
14:38:53 <tusho> ais523: there is a reddit commenter who is claiming it is completely impossible to hate metallica because you think their music sucks
14:39:03 <tusho> they claim that all the haters just hate them because they hate napster
14:39:09 <tusho> furthermore, they are claiming it with 100% literate english
14:39:14 <tusho> and replying to every single person who argues with them
14:39:21 <tusho> it's half amusing, half pathetic.
14:40:44 <tusho> ais523: http://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/6zg2e/cough_metallica_cough/c05a7rx
14:40:51 <tusho> "Your favorite metal band probably fucking loves Metallica, dickheads. What does your primitive little brain make of that?"
14:41:22 <fungot> ais523: i was just checking
14:41:22 <optbot> ais523: that would just be a one-letter recursive acronym
14:41:40 <ais523> ah yes, one-letter recursive acronyms
14:41:49 <ais523> like the C IAQ claimed that "C" was, probably the best joke in the whole IAQ
14:41:57 <ais523> (which has now gone down, but was good while it lasted)
14:42:21 <tusho> http://www.seebs.net/faqs/c-iaq.html
14:42:27 <ais523> tusho: it's been Wayback-only for years, I though
14:42:33 <tusho> it's been up since forever
14:42:41 <ais523> you mean I've been visiting it on Wayback all these years rather than directly for no reason?
14:48:22 <tusho> ais523: incidentally, the author seems to be a mac user
14:48:32 <ais523> how did you deduce that?
14:48:37 <tusho> ais523: his homepage.
14:48:49 <ais523> I impressed a lecturer once by deducing that he used Emacs from one of his slides
14:48:56 <tusho> ais523: gnu indentation?
14:49:01 <tusho> ais523: http://www.plethora.net/~seebs/ seems to be the dead, wayback-only version
14:49:12 <tusho> ais523: [[ 2002/01/17
14:49:12 <tusho> My programming page has a new version of my utilities package which works on Mac OS X. ]]
14:49:22 <tusho> http://www.seebs.net/log/ has a post from august 21st 2008
14:56:43 <tusho> how did you work it out
14:56:58 <ais523> tusho: indentation, as you guessed
14:57:04 <ais523> nobody indents like that deliberately
14:57:14 <ais523> sorry, I was too busy doing maths on #nethack
14:57:21 <ais523> in response to what was probably a stupid question
15:01:14 <ais523> tusho: incidentally I think cperl-mode does GNU-style indentation too, it's forcing me into one true brace in Perl just to avoid the GNU-style indentation
15:01:23 <ais523> it does one or the other depending on whether you newline before the {
15:01:35 <tusho> ais523: well, you SHOULD one true brace perl
15:01:37 <tusho> that is the convention
15:01:45 <ais523> why, to make it look more like Python?
15:01:50 <tusho> but that's the convention
15:01:56 <tusho> in most well-written perl i've seen
15:02:53 <tusho> "most recently, I switched to Dreamweaver 4, because Adobe seems to have replaced the very helpful staff from GoLive systems (no URL available, they've been destroyed) with a spam-friendly behemoth."
15:06:10 <tusho> bastard needs something like
15:06:25 <tusho> cat /tmp/bastard /dev/stdout | nc "$host" "$port"
15:06:30 <tusho> where it cats them asynchronously
15:06:36 <tusho> then i'd just echo to /tmp/bastard
15:06:58 <tusho> you have to use ctrl-d for tail -f'in /dev/stdout
15:07:09 <ais523> ah, it probably isn't instapiping
15:07:15 <ais523> your problem is pipe buffering I think
15:07:27 <ais523> you could just edit the source code for tail to put a fflush in there
15:07:33 <tusho> I'll need to sed /dev/stdout anyway
15:07:46 <tusho> so i can just do tail -f /tmp/bastard|
15:08:07 <tusho> wish you could do 'sleep forever'
15:08:41 <tusho> that is a busy loop
15:08:44 <ais523> put a sleep in there so as not to busyloop
15:08:50 <ais523> wile true; do; sleep 100; done
15:11:12 <tusho> ais523: you know there should be a program written to abide by the c iaq perfectly
15:11:16 <tusho> that actually works
15:11:46 <ais523> tusho: actually much of the C IAQ does work, if only incidentally, it's deliberately set up like that
15:11:57 <tusho> the point is it'd be crazy
15:13:51 <tusho> www.reddit.com could not be found. Please check the name and try again.
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15:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | TO bomb:.
16:00:00 <tusho> [[Google has withdrawn the offensive EULA language, but why did they put it there in the first place. Money=corruption.]]
16:00:08 <tusho> because it was a direct copy&paste of their EULA for all services
16:00:18 <tusho> which they intentionally try and use for everything to make it simpler for users to grasp
16:00:21 <tusho> it just so happened it wasn't a great idea in this acse.
16:00:25 <tusho> jeez, everything is a conspiracy these days
16:01:01 <ais523> presumably the alternative is calling Google's lawyers incompetent, and it's hard to get people to believe that
16:01:12 <ais523> although I think that this probably was a mistake
16:01:23 <tusho> somehow 'incompetent' is not something i'd attribute to a huge megacorp's lawyers
16:01:27 <tusho> they're very good at what they do...
16:01:41 <tusho> it's just an early beta release
16:01:55 <tusho> and lawyers aren't generally all that good at understanding tech.
16:01:59 <tusho> see: filesharing stuff
16:02:10 <tusho> they probably skimmed it over quickly and decided it was fine without really understanding
16:02:17 <tusho> not incompetence, just a really bad mistake
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16:13:55 -!- tusho_ has joined.
16:14:48 * ais523 waits to see if the same thing will happen again
16:14:57 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit).
16:15:14 -!- tusho_ has joined.
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16:15:30 -!- ais523 has left (?).
16:15:33 -!- tusho_ has joined.
16:16:05 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:16:12 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit).
16:16:25 <ais523> btw did tusho_ say hi to me while I wasn't here?
16:16:43 -!- tusho_ has joined.
16:17:16 <AnMaster> * tusho_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)
16:17:16 <AnMaster> * ais523 (n=ais523@sm01-fap04.bham.ac.uk) has left #esoteric ("9")
16:17:16 <AnMaster> * tusho_ (n=tusho@91.105.98.27) has joined #esoteric
16:17:16 <AnMaster> * ais523 (n=ais523@sm01-fap04.bham.ac.uk) has joined #esoteric
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16:17:24 <ais523> ok, this is just getting silly
16:17:38 <ais523> clearly tusho_ is some kind of bot, or acting like one to ignore me
16:17:39 <AnMaster> ais523, I think he wants to say hi first every time
16:17:46 <ais523> so I'll /ignore it for the time being
16:17:54 -!- tusho_ has joined.
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16:18:12 <AnMaster> ais523, notice he never quits until you say hi
16:18:21 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I noticed that, that's why I think it's a bot
16:18:24 -!- tusho_ has joined.
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16:18:30 <ais523> the say-hi-first thing got out of hand ages ago
16:18:40 <AnMaster> ais523, so it quits and reconnect?
16:18:43 <ais523> hmm... maybe I should make a bot that says hi to tusho underscore bot
16:19:02 <ais523> Remote closed the connection often happens when a bot quits without /quit
16:19:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I think the non-underscore tusho is timing out
16:19:32 <AnMaster> not sure if he normally ignores pings or not
16:19:53 <ais523> no, normally tusho replies, e doesn't always use the same client though
16:20:00 <ais523> no CTCP version response either
16:20:34 -!- tusho_ has joined.
16:20:47 <AnMaster> ais523, should I say hi to him?
16:20:56 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit).
16:21:03 <ais523> hmm... maybe write a hibot
16:21:13 <ais523> if bsmnt_bot was here we could train it to say hi to tusho_ whenever it joined
16:21:23 <ais523> I trained it to say hi to everyone who joined once
16:21:24 <AnMaster> ais523, but why doesn't that bot say hi directly when it connects?
16:21:36 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe to give other people a chance to say hi first?
16:21:43 -!- tusho_ has joined.
16:21:49 <ais523> that would fit in with tusho's thinking, I think
16:22:01 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit).
16:22:19 <ais523> ah, it's being debugged
16:22:26 <ais523> note that the quit message was different this time
16:22:32 <ais523> well, the last two times
16:22:35 <AnMaster> ais523, it was that a few times above
16:22:42 <ais523> race condition on exit?
16:22:44 <AnMaster> ais523, you are missing one fact
16:22:59 <AnMaster> it got a bug with getting wrong quit reasons
16:23:34 <AnMaster> ais523, so on freenode about all you can know is that if there is a quoted reason it is *probably* from the person who quit
16:24:05 <AnMaster> I think it uses errno the wrong way, since sometimes I seen * foo has quit (Success)
16:24:18 <AnMaster> and sometimes * foo has quit ()
16:24:35 <ais523> Errors with the reason as Success happen too often for me to get amused by them nowadays all that much
16:24:45 <AnMaster> ais523, only seen it on freenode
16:24:47 <ais523> last time I was working on some mmap code where they'd changed the API for it
16:25:02 <AnMaster> oh yes I think I saw it on a trunk version of some other ircd, it was fixed pretty quickly
16:25:06 <ais523> and the example code I had had the version test to determine which arguments to pass backwards
16:25:20 <ais523> so it was getting passed memory with the wrong alignment, and erroring out without setting errno
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16:25:56 <AnMaster> ais523, um? that was POSIX mmap()?
16:26:23 <ais523> maybe it was a function that returned an argument for mmap whose API changed
16:26:38 <AnMaster> I think C should reflect on error, like befunge :D
16:26:51 <ais523> you mean run backwards on error?
16:26:58 <ais523> at the C level, asm level or machine code level?
16:27:16 <AnMaster> which would be most hilarious?
16:27:28 <AnMaster> 1) a while {} loop would become a do { } while one and vice verse?
16:27:32 <ais523> could be interesting to see what machine code does when run backwards, it wouldn't be pretty on the x86 as it has 3-byte commands, might work better on some other systems
16:27:48 <ais523> asm-level would at least 'work' for certain values of 'work'
16:28:03 <ais523> AnMaster: Perl has that
16:28:08 <AnMaster> basically do { } xxx; for every construct
16:28:12 <ais523> it has lots of control-flow operators, someone even implemented but_first
16:28:26 <ais523> AnMaster: evaluates the condition then if it's true runs the command before it
16:28:41 <AnMaster> ais523, well that is just like a if with condition after
16:28:47 <ais523> so much like C if with a different syntax, it's just confusing because it has regular if too
16:28:51 <AnMaster> ais523, not like the difference between do while and while
16:28:54 <ais523> it's hard to see what else it could do, though
16:29:03 <ais523> an if which always ran the command at least once would be pointless...
16:29:26 <ais523> but_first is really silly though, clearly it was implemented as an extension by someone messing around rather than being in core
16:29:31 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc x86 got variable width commands?
16:29:51 <AnMaster> there are 1 byte ones and maybe even 4 byte ones
16:30:07 <ais523> I was thinking that reversed 1-byte and 2-byte commands might actually work though
16:30:09 <AnMaster> hm what is the range of a 3 byte integer
16:30:21 <ais523> AnMaster: about the right size, MySQL has them I think
16:30:37 <AnMaster> I asked how many possible 3 byte instructions there are
16:30:48 <ais523> which is a nice range to work with
16:30:48 <AnMaster> since I'm pretty sure I seen a 4 byte one
16:31:06 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, x86 keeps getting extended processor after processor whilst still having backward compatibility
16:31:11 <AnMaster> ais523, wait some of the bits on 1 byte ones have to be reserved to mean that it is a 2 or 3 byte one
16:31:28 <AnMaster> however as I think I seen 4 byte ones, that means they must have run out of 3 byte ones?
16:31:51 <ais523> seems likely, there aren't too many possible prefix for 3-byte commands
16:32:12 <ais523> and the number of commands multiplies up really quickly when you consider that for instance mov eax, ebx and mov eax, ecx are different commands
16:32:16 <AnMaster> so basically 2 bytes with the first reserved for some value to mean "multibyte"?
16:32:16 <ais523> and there are a lot of registers
16:32:30 <ais523> AnMaster: actually basically 1 byte with some values of the first meaning multibyte
16:32:38 <ais523> and of the 2 byte commands some values of the pair mean multibyte
16:32:40 <AnMaster> ais523, so parameters are encoded in the instructions themselves?
16:33:00 <ais523> AnMaster: register parameters are, as are addressing modes, constants and numerical memory addresses aren't
16:33:02 <AnMaster> ais523, that means you only get like 255 new ones every time
16:33:23 <AnMaster> x86_64 should have tried to clean up that mess
16:33:29 <ais523> AnMaster: well, there's more than one possible prefix to mean multibyte, but it certainly goes to show how they ran out of the mess so quickly
16:33:35 <ais523> AnMaster: have you heard of Itanium?
16:33:42 -!- tusho has joined.
16:33:43 <ais523> it was Intel's attempt to clean up that mess, but never really caught on
16:33:48 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:34:18 <AnMaster> ais523, well VLIW cause other issues
16:34:19 <ais523> I think AMD deliberately kept the mess in their x86_64 so that people would be more likely to migrate to it
16:34:37 <AnMaster> ais523, like being hard to make a good compiler for
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16:35:02 <ais523> pity, I wanted to test the regex
16:35:09 <AnMaster> ais523, will let you next time
16:35:30 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway on VLIW the compiler does the scheduling not the CPU basically
16:35:36 <ais523> yes, I know the theory
16:35:49 <AnMaster> and good scheduling isn't that easy
16:35:55 <ais523> I think gcc can handle it as Linux was ported to Itanium and it must have been compiled with something
16:36:01 <ais523> pretty much nothing else was, though
16:36:11 <AnMaster> and writing pure ASM for Itanium would be hard
16:36:20 <AnMaster> for example in low level part of OS
16:36:25 <ais523> it would be like writing machine code
16:36:29 <AnMaster> to set control registers or such
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16:37:01 <AnMaster> <ais523> it would be like writing machine code
16:37:02 <ais523> so it's probably looking for words
16:37:11 -!- tusho has joined.
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16:37:23 <ais523> AnMaster: no, in asm normally you don't have to know the bit patterns of the instruction
16:37:29 -!- tusho has joined.
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16:37:42 <AnMaster> ais523, well you could handle it like this:
16:37:47 -!- tusho has joined.
16:37:50 <ais523> whereas with asm VLIW there are so many details to set you may as well just write the machine code, and hi tusho
16:37:53 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:38:36 -!- tusho has joined.
16:38:40 <AnMaster> ais523, also GCC could have been cross compiled
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16:38:53 <ais523> AnMaster: it's still producing Itanium output though
16:39:01 -!- tusho has joined.
16:39:06 <AnMaster> ais523, yes it is, but it could run on something else
16:39:11 <ais523> whether it's a cross-compiler or not
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16:39:36 <ais523> maybe it is a human all along, but I suspect bot, it would be easy enough to write
16:39:41 <AnMaster> lets hope he doesn't get blocked from freenode for reconnecting all the time
16:39:42 -!- tusho has joined.
16:39:46 <AnMaster> ais523, yes certainly and hi tusho
16:39:50 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:40:02 <ais523> well, a temporary block might do em good
16:40:06 -!- tusho has joined.
16:40:12 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:40:24 <AnMaster> however you better join in too ais523
16:40:32 <AnMaster> ais523, or he will blame me ;P
16:40:33 -!- tusho has joined.
16:40:37 <ais523> yes, I keep trying but you keep beating me to it and hi tusho
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16:41:03 <ais523> that was very slow to respond to me
16:41:06 <AnMaster> ais523, "near beginning of line"?
16:41:24 <ais523> seems unlikely unless it's screen-scraping a terminal window
16:41:41 -!- tusho has joined.
16:42:15 <ais523> it's ignoring me I think
16:42:19 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit).
16:42:21 <ais523> just like I'm ignoring tusho_
16:43:13 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ohsut.
16:43:18 <ohsut> let's see if it works now
16:43:30 <ohsut> actually, probably the real tusho is logreading and tweaking things just to annoy us
16:44:00 <AnMaster> ohsut, well that would be very silly
16:44:17 <ohsut> AnMaster: e wrote a bot once just to repeatedly revert a rule on a nomic
16:44:18 <AnMaster> I mean it would sure make sense if he was afk
16:44:26 -!- tusho has joined.
16:44:33 <ohsut> no, but it's pretty obvious
16:44:46 <ohsut> who else would both have the persistence and care?
16:45:01 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit).
16:45:11 <ohsut> almost positive it's messing with us now
16:45:18 <ohsut> or has an intermittent bug
16:45:27 -!- ohsut has changed nick to ais523.
16:45:30 <AnMaster> ohsut, was he doing that in the beginning though?
16:45:42 <ais523> again, probably, although the bot's behaviour changes from time to time
16:45:45 <ais523> or is a human acting bot-like
16:45:51 <AnMaster> ais523, lets move the talk elsewhere just to mess with him!
16:45:54 <ais523> humans are very good at pretending to be IRC bots, I find
16:46:12 <ais523> AnMaster: I've almost lost track of what we were talking about...
16:46:46 <AnMaster> it would be like writing machine code
16:46:49 <ais523> not entirely sure if that's a good idea or not, possibly not
16:46:58 <ais523> because it requires so much memory for each command
16:47:08 <ais523> and memory access speed is the bottleneck in many systems nowadays
16:47:22 <AnMaster> yes, it solves a problem P4 had though:
16:47:38 <ais523> yes, the longer the pipelines the worse things get
16:47:56 <AnMaster> ais523, for long pipelines VLIW would actually solve a lot of stuff
16:48:12 -!- tusho has joined.
16:48:16 <AnMaster> however since that is no longer the paradigm...
16:48:23 <AnMaster> ais523, this time lets just ignore tusho
16:48:45 <fungot> ais523: so as not to attract bears." however, i don't see
16:48:56 -!- ais523 has changed nick to tushoops.
16:49:00 <fungot> tushoops: what's readline? and is the only sane thing to happen
16:49:03 <optbot> tushoops: I. . . Um. . .
16:49:04 <fungot> tushoops: it's the first time around
16:49:10 <fungot> tushoops: tcl has a type system!
16:49:10 <optbot> tushoops: hmm... tells the os how to compile the source, like, or=
16:49:20 -!- tushoops has changed nick to ais523.
16:49:33 <ais523> oh well, ignore it then
16:49:46 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit).
16:49:55 <AnMaster> ais523, VLIW may not be such a bad idea:
16:49:57 <ais523> ah, maybe Freenode's doing the same to it as it was doing to me earlier?
16:50:06 <ais523> forcing ever-longer timeouts due to flooding
16:50:11 <AnMaster> 1) if you can use all the parts in a cycle it saves scheduling
16:50:23 <AnMaster> 2) that means a power consuming part is removed
16:50:51 <ais523> I never really liked hardware scheduling, I preferred either forwarding or a software solution
16:51:04 <AnMaster> and 3) a compiler could potentially do more advanced scheduling not realistic in hardware
16:51:12 <AnMaster> ais523, so you suggest VLIW then?
16:51:13 <ais523> but forwarding gets too complicated when you have a long pipeline
16:51:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I was thinking more about instruction reordering
16:51:41 <ais523> instead of telling the processor how to schedule, you literally do all the scheduling yourself and produce pre-scheduled machine code
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16:51:58 <ais523> so if, for instance, jump instructions don't kick in for 3 instructions, you write the jump instruction 3 instructions earlier
16:51:58 <AnMaster> ais523, all modern "PC" CPUs can execute several instructions in parallel
16:52:12 <AnMaster> for example a floating point operation at the same time as a integer addition
16:52:16 <ais523> yes, you would presumably have to allow for that too
16:52:28 <AnMaster> ais523, that is the reason for VLIW
16:52:37 <ais523> but that's not all that hard on processors where certain instructions always operate in certain functional units
16:52:55 <ais523> for instance it's a solved problem by now for the 386 and 387 in parallel, to pick a really old example
16:52:56 <AnMaster> ais523, issue: many CPU got several copies of each functional unit
16:53:13 <ais523> yes, and I don't really know how to deal with that, that's certainly a good reason for trying out something like VLIW
16:53:19 <ais523> but there are good sides and bad sides to it
16:53:36 <AnMaster> yes potential memory waste if you can't use all instructions
16:53:45 <AnMaster> for example if you want to run a nop
16:54:24 <ais523> apart from time delays, ideal programs would never need nops
16:54:34 <ais523> but in practice they're often needed for scheduling or alignment reasons
16:54:43 <ais523> gcc-bf can get away with just deleting all nops
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16:54:53 <AnMaster> there are sometimes reason for them
16:55:01 <ais523> although I think I'll compile them into the word nop in the BF source code if any are generated
16:55:07 <ais523> for instance by __builtin_nop
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16:55:42 <AnMaster> ais523, also hardware scheduling for functional units can only look ahead a limited amount
16:55:46 <ais523> looks like the bot's finally been fixed, then
16:55:53 <ais523> hi fungot, optbot, tusho
16:55:53 <fungot> ais523: ( define ( macro... not ( define ( printer x list) ( map quote ( list 1
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16:56:09 <AnMaster> ais523, but a compiler could look ahead the whole function
16:56:22 <ais523> trying to do scheduling in hardware is just crazy, really
16:56:27 <AnMaster> so in *theory* VLIW could produce better code
16:56:43 <AnMaster> what if the next generation of the CPU adds an additional functional unit
16:56:51 <AnMaster> then you need to change all programs
16:57:05 <AnMaster> to be able to schedule for that unit too
16:57:06 <ais523> hmm... maybe the ideal solution would be to generate a separate machine-code program for each processor
16:57:18 <ais523> a clever compiler could rely on the clock speeds to know that everything stayed in sync
16:57:23 <ais523> make the asm pretty hard to write though
16:57:55 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway it means the compiler must know the details of this exact cpu revision
16:58:04 <AnMaster> it means it is harder to add new stuff
16:58:06 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but it pretty much has to anyway
16:58:33 <AnMaster> ais523, you can compile generic "modern x86" code that will run well on both AMD and Intel CPUs
16:58:52 <AnMaster> and most apps don't need that extra speed gained by specific CPU
16:59:15 <AnMaster> I mean it is all nice and so, but is it really worth it for, say, a text editor
16:59:16 <ais523> yes, but as a programmer I don't see why a processor design that forces everything to be compiled from source is a problem
16:59:29 <ais523> if you don't need the speed then write an x86 emulator and run on that
16:59:52 <AnMaster> ais523, CPUs change very fast, think GCC could keep supporting the last or would lag behind?
17:00:21 <ais523> I reckon it could keep up if the redesigns weren't too large
17:00:22 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway you could have versioned instructions
17:00:40 <ais523> it's easy enough to port it from one CPU to a CPU similar to it
17:01:25 <AnMaster> <first n bytes: revision of machine code><APU 1><APU 2>...<APU n><FPU 1><FPU 2>...
17:01:35 <AnMaster> probably a horrible idea I admit
17:02:13 <AnMaster> ais523, probably should have revision of revision number in case we run out of reserved bits for it and need to extend it ;)
17:02:39 <ais523> AnMaster: this is pretty much the mess with x86 instructions at the moment, unfortunately...
17:03:04 <ais523> x86 machine language is arguably a joke
17:03:06 <AnMaster> anyway yes breaking backward compatibility sometimes is a good idea
17:03:31 <AnMaster> maybe you could add a control register with a legacy flag
17:03:43 <AnMaster> to support the 1 or 2 last incompatible versions
17:03:52 <AnMaster> that OSes could set for specific processes
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17:04:26 <AnMaster> suddenly everyone would be demanding open source or their stuff wouldn't work any longer
17:04:47 <ais523> yes, it would certainly be adopted a lot more if processors didn't work on closed-source stuff
17:05:01 <AnMaster> lets sell this idea, err I mean GPL it to, this to RMS
17:05:30 <ais523> arguably processor design would proceed a lot faster if it didn't have to worry about working on closed-source stuff
17:06:16 <ais523> maybe processors could have a stripped-down C compiler in ROM so that you could run source-code directly, to avoid problems with installing an OS on the computer in the first place
17:06:50 <AnMaster> and what if that C compiler had a bug?
17:07:01 <AnMaster> ais523, no I think that may work very badly
17:07:06 <ais523> AnMaster: suppose you want to distribute a LiveCD, what sort of binary do you put on it?
17:07:19 <ais523> AnMaster: it worked back in the days of BBC BASIC
17:07:36 <AnMaster> there would be like a hundred different downloads
17:07:57 <AnMaster> or it would be a massively bloated 10 dvd set
17:08:05 <AnMaster> considering some OSes are almost that already
17:08:40 <ais523> A full set of Debian designed for all possible processors would be pretty massive
17:08:58 <AnMaster> well you could have stripped down netintalls
17:09:23 <ais523> hmm... you could have a second processor for downloading the binary of your OS
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17:09:36 <ais523> some computers are getting that already for websurfing etc. on Linux without waiting for Windows to load
17:09:52 <ais523> normally with ARM as the second processor and some x86 or x86 as the main one
17:10:10 <AnMaster> ais523, there should probably be some basic boot mode, so you could do like one netinstall cd with maybe 5-10 different CPUs on
17:10:11 <ais523> you can load the computer up on the second processor for basic web-browsing, or on the first one to use the full speed of the computer
17:10:15 <AnMaster> then just enough for boot loader
17:10:15 <ais523> the second one loads a lot faster
17:10:51 <ais523> still more sense if you have a simple common processor language ro bootstrap things
17:10:59 <ais523> doesn't really matter what, you could even use brainfuck I suppose
17:11:11 <AnMaster> ais523, well hard to handle should there be a bug in that
17:11:21 <ais523> AnMaster: a bug in a BF interp?
17:11:44 <ais523> those things should be possible to prove correct mathematically
17:11:46 <AnMaster> no I assumed something anyone like a serious OS developer would use :P
17:11:59 <ais523> I was trying to pick the most portable machine code I knew
17:12:03 <ais523> which is surely brainfuck
17:13:07 <AnMaster> 1) probably they used just enough rom/ram for the compiler, right? to save money 2) so someone find a bug, fix would grow the stuff in the rom with maybe 20 bytes... 3) there are only 10 bytes free (they rounded it up to nearest kb limit
17:13:19 <AnMaster> just can see that happening...
17:13:51 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway you would have to write the whole OS in that then?
17:13:55 <ais523> AnMaster: well you should see the sort of programs that CPU manufacturers ship to flash their microcode
17:14:09 <AnMaster> ais523, I know such exist, but I never seem them
17:14:12 <ais523> luckily I haven't seen any from personal experience
17:14:20 <ais523> but one was an ActiveX browser control that only worked in IE
17:14:35 <ais523> and the other only ran on genuine MS-DOS, it wouldn't even work under Windows' emulation of it
17:14:39 <AnMaster> ais523, an user space process shouldn't have the needed access
17:14:56 <AnMaster> ais523, well I done bios flashing using PC-DOS floppy
17:14:59 <ais523> AnMaster: well that's what I thought, it at least explains the MS-DOS for the second one
17:15:15 <ais523> but as a browser control, that's really worrying
17:15:57 <AnMaster> on windows 9x IE could have the needed access
17:16:04 <ais523> AnMaster: no idea, this is second-hand so I'm repeating what I know but don't know the details
17:16:43 <AnMaster> ais523, for intel microcode I think it doesn't stay after reboot, it reverts to the old state, so you have to load it at every boot
17:16:52 <AnMaster> support exists under linux at least
17:17:05 <ais523> well there's 915resolution which patches the BIOS every boot
17:17:07 <AnMaster> and some user space tool run as root
17:17:23 <ais523> means I can't hibernate because if I do I get an unpatched BIOS when it resumes from hibernation
17:17:45 -!- tusho has joined.
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17:18:00 <AnMaster> ais523, also I assume that "915resolution" whatever it is runs at every reboot?
17:18:01 <ais523> AnMaster: allows an Intel 915 graphics card to handle screen resolutions higher than 1024x768
17:18:15 <ais523> it's a service, at runlevel 3 or so
17:18:29 <AnMaster> then you could make it rerun after resume
17:18:32 <ais523> presumably there's something similar buried in the code of Windows somewhere
17:18:35 <AnMaster> logically it should be possible
17:18:41 <ais523> AnMaster: I assumed so, but never bothered to find out how
17:19:01 <ais523> I suspect it needs to run before the computer tries to switch into graphics mode
17:19:19 <AnMaster> at run level 3 that would already have happened I think?
17:19:51 <ais523> so it can switch into graphics mode first
17:20:02 <ais523> usplash runs at 1024x768 for that reason, I think
17:20:29 <AnMaster> well I don't like boot splashes
17:20:46 <ais523> Ubuntu has one by default, and I can always control-alt-F1 to get rid of it
17:21:04 <ais523> at which point all the text scrolls by on terminal 1 rather than the usplash
17:21:19 <ais523> which just shows a progress bar except when fscking
17:21:27 <AnMaster> ais523, you run ubuntu? I thought it was debian?
17:21:54 <ais523> AnMaster: it's pretty hard to tell from outside, but this is Ubuntu
17:22:08 <AnMaster> well I mean I thought you said it was debian before
17:22:09 <ais523> many of the programs claim to be Debian though because Ubuntu never ported them
17:22:22 <ais523> and I have used Debian systems in the past, not for IRC though I don't think
17:22:40 <ais523> recompiled with different version info
17:22:46 <AnMaster> GNU bash, version 3.2.33(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
17:23:04 <AnMaster> ais523, where would it say debian
17:23:05 <ais523> hmm... that doesn't list distro, I suppose it doesn't need to
17:23:23 <AnMaster> [ 0.000000] Linux version 2.6.25-gentoo-r7-1 (root@tux.lan) (gcc version 4.1.2 20070214 ( (gdc 0.24, using dmd 1.020)) (Gentoo 4.1.2 p1.1)) #2 Sun Aug 3 13:19:47 CEST 2008
17:23:26 <ais523> AnMaster: Apache's error page seems to know
17:23:36 <AnMaster> that says... because I use gentoo patchset
17:23:58 <AnMaster> I guess their patchset is large enough there
17:24:02 <ais523> ah, my gcc knows it's Ubuntu
17:24:16 <AnMaster> ais523, however most non-gcc/binutils/kernel stuff seems to ignore distro
17:24:43 <pikhq> Unless the distro has a fairly significant patchset, of course.
17:25:02 <ais523> well, I can hardly imagine them editing the C-INTERCAL source to specify that it's Debian in a version string somewhere
17:25:05 <AnMaster> well my package manager seems to know ;)
17:25:14 -!- tusho has joined.
17:25:19 <ais523> package managers need to know which repo to access, and hi tusho
17:25:20 <AnMaster> and some other gentoo made apps
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17:25:36 <ais523> buggy or rate-limited or both
17:25:41 <ais523> it's probably what happened to me earlier
17:25:50 <ais523> where pings took over 10 minutes at one point
17:25:55 -!- tusho has joined.
17:25:56 <ais523> I pasted a lot of text in #esoteric-blah
17:26:13 <ais523> and as a result messages I sent were delayed about 10 minutes
17:26:38 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:26:41 <ais523> so it's possible that tusho's current actions have nothing to do with what we're saying at the time
17:26:42 <AnMaster> in fact lets get lament to kick him
17:26:48 <ais523> AnMaster: I tried, but lament wasn't online
17:27:01 <ais523> also it would need to be a temporary ban, kicking doesn't really work against someone who keeps parting anyway
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17:27:06 <AnMaster> ais523, um the current actions... well after a reconnect any rate limit would be reset
17:27:21 <AnMaster> ais523, s/temporary/permanent/
17:27:37 <ais523> by "temporary" I meant "remove the ban after a bit"
17:28:05 <AnMaster> ais523, well I didn't mean that ;)
17:28:12 <ais523> and how do you know that Freenode isn't experimenting with a rate limit that works across connections as an antispam method?
17:28:16 <ais523> it seems in-character for them
17:28:27 <AnMaster> /usr/bin $ grep -li Gentoo * | wc -l <-- still waiting
17:29:17 <ais523> optbot often does, it seems that half the stuff said in #esoteric would make sense in just about any context
17:29:18 <optbot> ais523: um? short circut operators? isn't that the default in C?
17:29:26 <ais523> otoh fungot often makes much less sense
17:29:27 <fungot> ais523: it would be just
17:30:03 <AnMaster> ais523, yes... so they cancel each other out
17:30:15 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
17:30:28 <AnMaster> that is number of matching files
17:30:36 <AnMaster> I'm waiting for number of non-matching ones
17:31:19 <AnMaster> ais523, actually I think a lot will match because GCC puts a .comment section in with GCC version, and the GCC version strings contain "gentoo" here
17:31:39 <AnMaster> it would be a lot more interesting without that .comment section
17:31:39 <ais523> AnMaster: how many of the /usr/bin executables will have been stripped on your system
17:31:49 <ais523> I expect most of them, probably?
17:31:54 <ais523> would that remove the comment?
17:32:16 <AnMaster> so nm would still make sense I guess
17:32:23 <AnMaster> grep: ear: No such file or directory
17:32:29 <AnMaster> as for ear it is a borken symlink
17:32:38 <AnMaster> to an erlang tool that has been deprecated
17:32:48 <AnMaster> -L means "list files without matches"
17:33:01 <AnMaster> anyway I filed a bug about package installing that symlink
17:33:17 <AnMaster> the interesting part here is that I got so many binaries
17:33:19 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm trying the same test over here, in /usr/bin and searching for Ubuntu
17:33:34 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean over 3300 binaries in /usr/bin
17:33:36 <ais523> wow, and I have a lot of broken symlinks in /usr/bin...
17:33:44 <ais523> AnMaster: as a comparison
17:33:50 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and that doesn't include KDE, KDE is in /usr/kde/3.5/bin
17:34:00 <AnMaster> How the heck over 3300 binaries?
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17:34:37 <AnMaster> x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-ld or x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-c++-3.4.6
17:34:49 <ais523> AnMaster: some programs like git install all their possible command-line options as symlinks I think
17:35:03 <AnMaster> wonder how many non-symlink ones there are
17:35:04 <ais523> heh, you can install BusyBox and only have one non-symlink command in /usr/bin...
17:35:37 <ais523> but that's only really worthwhile on embedded systems, and even then they normally need something besides POSIX shell commands
17:35:55 <ais523> BusyBox was invented to create recovery floppy disks for Debian, that's why it has dpkg
17:36:14 <AnMaster> tux /usr/bin # find . -type f | wc -l
17:36:16 <ais523> ...and I think tusho is lagging, even though #freenode say they haven't changed the code recently
17:36:28 <AnMaster> ais523, * Ping reply from tusho: 0.72 second(s)
17:36:40 <ais523> AnMaster: I have 201 binaries in /usr/bin that mention Ubuntu
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17:36:55 <AnMaster> ais523, I have almost 3000 non-symlink ones
17:37:05 <ais523> and 5885 files there total
17:37:13 <AnMaster> sure a few are wrapper scripts, like the autoconf for different autoconf versions
17:37:21 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and freenode's ircd suck, including their throttle code, it handles bursts badly
17:37:36 <ais523> wow, that's a lot of symlinks...
17:38:02 <AnMaster> ais523, which is why I'm usually lagged for like one and a half minute while my client autojoin lots of channels
17:38:05 <ais523> no wait, symlinks are 'l' are they?
17:38:21 <ais523> I have 2584 f and 358 l
17:38:23 <ais523> so what are the others?
17:38:29 <ais523> files with embedded newlines?
17:39:14 <ais523> AnMaster: wait, I don't have 5885 total
17:39:14 <AnMaster> ais523, at least arch put /usr/bin/perl-<version> for some misc perl binaries like perldoc and such
17:39:20 <ais523> I only have 2942 total now
17:39:28 <ais523> so why did I get a high result earlier?
17:39:34 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I probably messed up a command
17:39:37 <AnMaster> ais523, check what command you typed
17:40:16 <ais523> AnMaster: ls -1 means don't sort into multiple columns
17:40:26 <ais523> I think it's the default anyway when not outputting to tty
17:40:29 <AnMaster> what has that got to do with anything?
17:40:36 <ais523> ls -1 * returns higher than ls -1
17:40:41 <ais523> because it lses all the subdirs too
17:40:52 <AnMaster> ais523, you have subdirs in /usr/bin?
17:41:21 <AnMaster> ais523, unless a symlink is to a directory
17:41:23 <ais523> I have 2584 regular files, 358 symlinks, and one type 't'
17:41:34 <ais523> hmm... what does that mean, a t in the file type field?
17:42:00 <ais523> ah, it's the first letter of "total 381419"
17:42:09 <ais523> which I forgot to cut out from the result...
17:43:00 <ais523> AnMaster: total size, probably in KB
17:43:13 <ais523> no /dev files have any size because they aren't regular files
17:44:34 <AnMaster> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Aug 26 10:58 /dev/XOR -> null
17:46:18 <AnMaster> ais523, no I don't think he is lagged or whatever, just messing with us
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17:46:40 <AnMaster> a troll would act much more interesting
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17:47:05 <AnMaster> ais523, what did you see last?
17:47:12 <AnMaster> <ais523> no /dev files have any size because they aren't regular files
17:47:43 <ais523> and I only said one line after that
17:47:45 <ais523> /dev files use up no space apart from the inode itself, I think
17:48:19 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/BsFSnT48.html
17:50:22 <AnMaster> ais523, care to comment on that odd XOR device?
17:50:25 <ais523> sorry, here, just distracted
17:50:40 <AnMaster> ais523, <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/BsFSnT48.html
17:51:12 <ais523> and if it's just linked to /dev/null, why?
17:52:49 <AnMaster> 50-udev-default.rules:KERNEL=="null", SYMLINK+="XOR"
17:54:00 <AnMaster> ais523, this is so odd I should probably track down the udev rules maintainer and ask
17:57:42 * oerjan wonders if /dev/AND and /dev/OR exist
17:58:09 <AnMaster> ais523, for malloc() and free() to work it means the implementation have to internally keep track of how large the block is right?
17:58:20 <AnMaster> so why doesn't the C standard add some routine to query that
17:58:38 <AnMaster> to me that sounds like it could be useful and the info would already have to be tracked anyway
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18:03:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm wait here it's /dev/X0R, not XOR
18:03:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, huh? what distro? Gentoo here
18:03:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, but it is definitely XOR here
18:04:02 <ais523> ok, this is getting even weirder
18:04:20 <ais523> AnMaster: DOS has malloc and free as syscalls, and there's no way within the DOS protocol to get at the internal size
18:04:31 <oerjan> i don't know it's NVG's server
18:04:44 <AnMaster> ais523, it still needs to track it so?
18:05:08 <ais523> AnMaster: well, that may be one reason the C standard doesn't specify a way to track, because on some OSs the malloc and free won't tell you
18:05:09 <AnMaster> wait you mean they did it for DOS compatibility?
18:05:23 <ais523> AnMaster: C89 has everything compatibility, it even restricts filenames to 6.1
18:05:31 <ais523> which is even more ridiculous than 8.3
18:05:34 <AnMaster> also /dev/XOR exists on Arch Linux too
18:05:51 <ais523> AnMaster: minimum needed for the C header files
18:05:59 <ais523> it seems that on some Acorn OS, even that wasn't enough
18:06:10 <ais523> the C compiler on that system maps stdio.h to h/stdio
18:06:17 <ais523> that is a directory called h with a file named stdio on it
18:06:22 <ais523> the standard allows that sort of thing
18:06:31 <ais523> ridiculous filename restrictions, though
18:06:39 <AnMaster> ais523, oh yes that sounds familiar, they do filenames that way
18:07:12 <ais523> so the name makes sense
18:07:13 <AnMaster> ais523, !Befunge would iirc be a directory somewhat like the "packages" on OS X I think
18:07:18 <ais523> I thought it was some sort of C programming joke
18:07:40 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC_OS is the same iirc
18:08:46 <AnMaster> "Proprietary ADFS filesystem - The OS uses meta-data to determine file type; file extensions are not used. Colons are used to separate the filesystem from the rest of the path; the root is represented by a dollar ($) sign and directories by a period (.). Extensions from foreign filesystems are shown using a forward slash ('example.txt' becomes 'example/txt'). For example, ADFS::HardDisc4.$. is the roo
18:08:47 <AnMaster> t of HardDisc4 using the ADFS filesystem. This system gives support for filesystems other than ADFS."
18:14:50 <oerjan> "but at least it explains it" sounds like a punchline
18:15:14 <oerjan> thus, this must be a joke
18:16:45 <oerjan> it _could_ be, if we are actually in a sitcom or webcomic
18:16:58 <oerjan> (a very nerdy one, so probably the latter)
18:18:38 <oerjan> is it a bad thing to realize you are being http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy in real life? (Warning: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)
18:20:33 <oerjan> (also, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WrongGenreSavvy)
18:21:25 <tusho> do you think I should have actually scripted that oh no stuff
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18:23:02 <oerjan> we will never know, as we have already forgotten the context
18:23:18 <tusho> no I doubt ais523 has forgotten the context
18:23:22 <tusho> although I bet they are ignoring me
18:24:13 <tusho> just lost the game
18:25:51 <oerjan> YES THEY HAVE, i have hypnotized them to forget everything i have not been told about
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18:27:27 <tusho> ^echo unignore me kthx -tusho
18:27:28 <fungot> unignore me kthx -tusho unignore me kthx -tusho
18:27:53 <ais523> tusho: I never actually had you on ignore
18:27:59 <ais523> I think I still have tusho_ on ignore though
18:28:01 <tusho> ais523: anmaster likely does
18:28:34 <AnMaster> tusho, I never had you on ignore either
18:28:35 <oerjan> ^echo why the doubling?
18:28:36 <fungot> why the doubling? why the doubling?
18:28:56 <tusho> AnMaster: you're the one who went "wtf" the first time
18:28:56 <ais523> not on Windows it doesn't
18:29:01 <tusho> now you're acting all "duh" :)
18:29:08 <tusho> ais523: your os choice does not change the laws of sound
18:29:13 <AnMaster> tusho, yes because I thought of it in terms of shell scripts
18:29:20 <tusho> AnMaster: that's the joke, obviously
18:29:48 <ais523> tusho: echo says back to you what you said to it on Windows
18:29:49 <AnMaster> ais523, hm let me see if I remember...
18:29:52 <ais523> unless the argument is on or off
18:29:57 <tusho> ais523: yes, i know
18:30:08 <ais523> AnMaster: echo on and echo off control the settings of the sell instead
18:30:18 <AnMaster> ais523, so how did you print the actual string "off"?
18:30:24 <ais523> AnMaster: with difficulty
18:30:25 <tusho> oerjan: we'd need two fungot's for that
18:30:30 <tusho> put fungotty in here
18:30:31 <fungot> tusho: and the only place where it used to
18:30:39 <ais523> probably echo "off " would pretty much work on modern Windows, DOS was rubbish at quoting though
18:30:48 <tusho> AnMaster: yes you are
18:30:58 <AnMaster> ais523, ah but they have windows power shell now
18:31:09 <ais523> AnMaster: that's weird, I haven't used it but I've heard it's object-oriented
18:31:13 <ais523> and not very like ordinary shellss
18:31:15 <AnMaster> tusho, oh and it wouldn't work, since they would run out after a few iterations
18:31:33 <tusho> AnMaster: make it use ^, then.
18:31:35 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I haven't tried it either
18:31:42 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't want them to collide
18:31:49 <optbot> AnMaster: #perverted might have gotten too many non-programming-related visitors.
18:31:55 <ais523> AnMaster: when there's an Underload-bot in a channel it's normally reasonably easy to set up a loop whatever the characters if there's one other bot
18:32:09 <AnMaster> tusho, can you find the context of optbot's last comment?
18:32:15 <AnMaster> I'm just wondering wtf that was about
18:32:20 <tusho> AnMaster: probably when people were being perverted in here
18:32:24 <tusho> and someone told them to go to #perverted
18:32:45 <ais523> actually, I guess that someone was discussing the name #esoteric
18:32:50 <tusho> but channels auto-vivify.
18:32:51 <ais523> and someone pointed out that it was preferable to #perverted
18:33:04 <AnMaster> I know they are created on demand
18:33:11 <tusho> 05.07.22:00:31:04 <fizzie> #perverted might have gotten too many non-programming-related visitors.
18:33:18 <AnMaster> ais523, what would be wrong with #esoteric?
18:33:25 <tusho> 00:22:46 --- join: msingh (~msingh@203-59-177-150.dyn.iinet.net.au) joined #esoteric
18:33:25 <tusho> 00:23:00 <msingh> is this the channel for perverts?
18:33:33 <tusho> 00:25:11 <fizzie> Only if you think esoteric programming languages are perverse.
18:33:33 <tusho> 00:25:59 <msingh> right
18:33:33 <tusho> 00:26:03 <msingh> and i think thats reasonable
18:33:34 <tusho> 00:28:28 <fizzie> "marked by a disposition to oppose and contradict", "resistant to guidance or discipline", "marked by immorality; deviating from what is considered right or proper or good"; I guess that does apply.
18:33:34 <tusho> 00:29:49 <BigZaphod> maybe perverted programming language would have been a better term. plus it has a cool acronym: ppl
18:33:36 <tusho> 00:30:36 <msingh> hmm no point denying it though, we are talking about perverts
18:33:38 <tusho> 00:31:04 <fizzie> #perverted might have gotten too many non-programming-related visitors.
18:33:41 <tusho> 00:31:18 <BigZaphod> fizzie: heh, good point.
18:33:42 <tusho> 00:31:37 <msingh> :)
18:33:53 <ais523> well, where did the name "esoteric programming languages" COME FROM?
18:34:02 <tusho> ais523: DO COME FROM .3
18:34:24 <AnMaster> ais523, what happens if you write it in lower case in intercal?
18:34:26 <ais523> tusho: don't do that, it would mess with the system library too easily
18:34:30 <ais523> AnMaster: syntax error nowadays
18:34:49 <tusho> ais523: what would it do
18:34:53 <ais523> there's a compile-time flag in C-INTERCAL that controls case-sensitivity, but as far as I know nobody set it to insensitive
18:35:01 <ais523> and I think INTERCAL-72 was invented before lowercase was
18:35:25 <ais523> or at least before it became common
18:35:43 <ais523> ALGOL-68 had a pragma to tell it to use nonstandard case-based stropping
18:35:44 <tusho> ais523: what, you mean outside of computers?
18:35:46 <tusho> that would be cool
18:35:50 <tusho> everyone would be shouting all the time
18:35:56 <tusho> in everyday conversation
18:35:57 <ais523> nonstandard because many computers couldn't manage case distinctions
18:36:42 <ais523> and ALGOL-68 was only 4 years before INTERCAL-72
18:37:25 <oerjan> tusho: the ancient romans, you could always hear coming
18:37:36 <tusho> think of the children...
18:39:10 <tusho> perhaps #perverted is a better name.
18:40:25 <oerjan> we _do_ get the occasional rare magick enthusiast in here
18:40:40 <tusho> oerjan: did you miss my joke
18:40:43 <tusho> or was it too terrible to comment on
18:40:54 <tusho> and yea, i remember that guy looking for an actual esoteric thing
18:40:58 <tusho> i tried to turn him the way of science but no!
18:41:10 <tusho> how did oerjan miss a Terrible Pun
18:41:41 <oerjan> i was too preoccupied with my Yoda grammar
18:50:00 <AnMaster> hm... why is it that C didn't think of using the $ for anything?
18:53:45 <fizzie> $ is often legal in symbol names, maybe they didn't want to conflict with that.
18:54:00 <fizzie> At least GNU as allows $ on most targets, I think.
18:54:26 <fizzie> Not that standard C variables could have $s, but still.
18:55:41 <fizzie> Alternatively maybe they were COMMUNISTS and didn't want to use the "big money" character.
19:02:24 <Deewiant> there's a lot in ASCII that C doesn't use
19:03:21 <ais523> fizzie: yes, gcc allows $ in variable names without -ansi (or maybe without -pedantic)
19:03:32 <ais523> asm allows both . and $ in identifiers though
19:03:46 <ais523> (normally compilers use . in asm identifiers to guarantee they're unique from user-code identifiers)
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19:21:01 <tusho> ais523: http://lifehacker.com/5045136/google-chromes-aboutinternets-easter-egg
19:21:09 <tusho> aww, no screenshot
19:21:25 <ais523> tusho: does about:mozilla do anything in Chrome
19:21:29 <ais523> it was special-cased in IE, after all
19:21:43 <ais523> and obviously it's special-cased in Firefox
19:22:00 <tusho> ais523: http://howtogeek.com/ss/2008-09-03_1949.png
19:22:30 <ais523> about:% has also been doing the rounds recently
19:22:36 <ais523> it's one of the easiest ways to crash Chrome
19:22:39 <ais523> and can be linked from a webpage
19:22:48 <ais523> so link that crashes the browser, straight off
19:22:56 <tusho> apparently %: crashes it too
19:23:04 <ais523> tusho: did you just try that?
19:23:21 <ais523> hmm... % is SQL for what sh calls *, isn't it?
19:23:33 <ais523> no idea if that's relevant
19:23:41 <tusho> it's just a random character
19:24:43 <ais523> do other random characters crash it?
19:25:43 <Deewiant> or no, it has to be at least two digits evidently
19:25:56 <ais523> Chrome does a Google search on anything that doesn't look like a URL, I hardly ever use Google so I find the Firefox 3 address bar more useful
19:26:11 <tusho> why do you hardly ever use google?
19:26:16 <tusho> do you prefer yahoo? :P
19:26:17 <ais523> (I know because sometimes I forget to press down before return then it does a Google search)
19:26:33 <ais523> tusho: web search engines aren't as good as finding what I want then knowing people who know where to find what I want
19:26:35 <Deewiant> do you just keep a 365-day history? :-P
19:26:44 <tusho> Deewiant: my history is infinite
19:26:54 <ais523> and normally I'm visiting the same websites I've visited earlier, rather than looking for new ones
19:27:03 <Deewiant> my history is cleared when the browser closes
19:27:07 <ais523> also Wikipedia tends to be better for finding an organisation's website then Google does
19:27:23 <ais523> but yes, I keep infinite history and search through it with the 'awesomebar' normally (stupid name)
19:27:35 <tusho> awesomebar is an awesome name
19:29:56 <tusho> The RFCs say that a personal site should be at name.me.country
19:30:07 <tusho> But I've already stated my anti-tying-yourself-to-your-country sentiment, etc.
19:30:11 <tusho> I wonder what I should use?
19:30:14 <tusho> I was going to use tusho.org.
19:30:19 <tusho> But i'm not really an organization.
19:30:27 <tusho> (Eww. .name is ugly.)
19:30:38 <tusho> .me is for some random place but is being marketed for personal websites, etc.
19:30:44 <tusho> Perhaps I should get tusho.me
19:30:50 <ais523> tie yourself to an obviously incorrect country, or preferably an invalid one
19:30:51 <tusho> that is a complete abuse of the .info domain
19:30:58 <ais523> so it's equally wrong no matter which domain
19:31:00 <tusho> ais523: as you can see i'm going for correctness here
19:31:47 <tusho> Deewiant: but... http://tusho.name/
19:32:08 <tusho> tusho@tusho.name is even uglier
19:32:19 <oerjan> clearly you want to get rich and shell out for the tusho toplevel domain
19:32:26 <tusho> as we've discussed
19:32:31 <oerjan> which may soon be possible
19:32:35 <ais523> tusho: valid, you can have no characters before the @
19:32:40 <ais523> just most mailers don't understand it
19:32:45 <tusho> oerjan: it's over 100k.
19:33:10 <ais523> Deewiant: you can even have nested comments in email addresses
19:33:19 <tusho> ais523: fizzie looked it up
19:33:22 <tusho> you need something before the @
19:33:28 <Deewiant> ais523: yes, that I did know :-)
19:33:45 <tusho> also, it'd fuck up address validators
19:33:54 <Deewiant> address validators already don't understand shit
19:33:57 <ais523> most address validators are wrong, they can't handle nested comments
19:34:09 <Deewiant> but basic stuff like plus addressing
19:34:41 <tusho> i want something i can actually use.
19:34:49 <Deewiant> address validators are a piece of shit and should die
19:35:00 <tusho> Deewiant: so's your face.
19:35:09 <ais523> Deewiant: what about an RFC-based address validator?
19:35:49 <Deewiant> the only one I know of is that infamous perl regex and I'm not sure if it's been proven correct
19:36:10 <ais523> Deewiant: if it isn't recursive, it's wrong
19:36:27 <ais523> and only very recent versions of Perl can do recursive regexen without helper variables
19:36:40 <Deewiant> and I suppose these are deployed and actually in use as well
19:37:29 <Deewiant> but I have yet to see any which even claims to validate according to the whole RFC, let alone does it
19:37:38 <tusho> that's because you haven't looked hard enough
19:37:39 <Deewiant> but it does mean they aren't widespread
19:37:50 <tusho> every perl programmer searches cpan
19:37:55 <tusho> therefore, amongst perl programmers, they are widespread
19:38:07 <tusho> then you'd be wrong
19:38:07 <ais523> hmm, maybe Deewiant agrees with me rather than tusho about CPAN
19:38:18 <Deewiant> and hoorays, widespread among perl programmers
19:38:25 <tusho> ais523: yes, i know, any language that doesn't have every library in the core distribution is evil
19:38:32 <ais523> no, that's not it at all
19:38:34 <Deewiant> what about the JSP, PHP, ASP programmers responsible for 80+% of web sites
19:38:50 <Deewiant> and e-mail validators that reject "xe@xe.org"
19:38:51 <tusho> Deewiant: they suck, and your point is
19:39:00 <tusho> what rejects xe@xe.org
19:39:36 <Deewiant> something rejected it because the part before @ was "too short"
19:39:56 <Deewiant> something with 2 chars, anyway
19:40:25 <Deewiant> tusho: and my point is, whoop-te-do, so good validators exist. They're not used anywhere which makes them practically useless.
19:40:33 <tusho> doesn't mean they should die
19:40:35 <tusho> the reverse, in fact.
19:40:43 <Deewiant> in most cases it's easier to just send e-mail to the address
19:41:04 <tusho> what about validating that it has a @ and a . in it
19:41:06 <tusho> that seems reasonable to me
19:41:08 <Deewiant> why the hell does there need to be a separate validation step
19:41:10 <ais523> Deewiant: couldn't someone get you blacklisted for spamming like that with repeated join attempts?
19:41:42 <Deewiant> or I get what you mean, but I can't quite think of a practical case
19:41:54 <ais523> but it's the sort of thing it's good to think about when designing webapps
19:42:16 <Deewiant> tusho: wrong, . isn't necessary
19:42:37 <tusho> but i don't WANt people registering @localhost
19:43:01 <Deewiant> or anything else that resolves to a LAN address
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19:43:21 <tusho> Deewiant: or just take the easy route out and check for @ and .
19:43:29 <tusho> because there will never be an address you want that doesn't have a . in it
19:43:41 <tusho> Deewiant: yeah, uh, no.
19:43:50 <ais523> tusho: you un-forward-looking person!
19:44:00 <ais523> even Microsoft Vista has support for IPv6 nowadays
19:44:06 <ais523> and the world has almost run out of IPv4 addresses
19:44:14 <ais523> Deewiant: really? I thought it was just Vista
19:44:28 <tusho> i want to run out of ipv4 addresses
19:44:28 <ais523> people are even resorting to horrible things like NAT to get more IPv4 addresses
19:44:44 <Deewiant> wikipedia page mentions "Windows XP SP2 IPv6 stack"
19:45:05 <Deewiant> http://www.ipv6.org/impl/windows.html
19:46:44 <ais523> no idea what that means when translated from Windowsmarketingspeak
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19:52:03 <ais523> tusho: how's Chrome on Acid3, by the way?
19:52:28 <tusho> ais523: not very good
19:52:40 <tusho> they don't use webkit's drawing as it uses propietary apis on windows
19:52:44 <ais523> tusho: does it beat Safari?
19:52:44 <tusho> so they've had to write that bit themselves
19:52:45 <tusho> so it's unsurprising
19:53:00 <ais523> yes, I meant released Safari
19:53:05 <tusho> then no, i don't think so
19:53:10 <tusho> it gets like 47/100
19:53:12 <ais523> you have a Mac, you should be able to check easily
19:53:32 <tusho> but i don't wanna open chrome
19:53:49 <tusho> that involves starting parallels
19:54:14 <tusho> ais523: safari beats it
19:55:41 <tusho> i think i'll go with tusho.net
19:56:01 <tusho> .com is obviously wrong and feels it, .org is OK but I might wanna profit from that domain sometime
19:56:04 <tusho> e.g. sell something i've made
19:56:13 <tusho> .net is pretty much used as the more-netural com these days
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19:57:21 <Deewiant> what makes .name so ugly compared to .net, for instance
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19:58:20 <ais523> hope you netsplit back again soon
19:58:36 <tusho> Deewiant: it's too long for a tld, really
19:58:45 <tusho> http://tusho.name/ just really grates with me, aesthetically
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19:58:53 <tusho> i guess it's ego: .name is getting as much attention as tusho
19:58:57 <tusho> when tusho is the important part
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19:59:03 <tusho> tusho.net gives 'tusho' the focus
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19:59:45 <ais523> tusho: I thought .net was mostly for ISPs and suchlike
19:59:50 <fizzie> I have "gehennom.org" registered even though there's nothing like an organization there. On the other hand, "zem.fi" is equally pointless and was chosen because of the shortness. And neither of those are really "name"-style addresses.
19:59:51 <tusho> ais523: used to be
20:00:05 <tusho> now it's just "everything"
20:00:11 <tusho> just as .com was once for commercial things
20:00:12 <fizzie> All of .com/.net/.org seem to be just "everything" now.
20:00:19 <tusho> .org is not everything
20:00:21 <ais523> beh, I like TLD segregation
20:00:23 <tusho> I haven't seen a profiteering .org site
20:00:31 <ais523> and .com vs. .org is to do with profit-making, I think
20:00:33 <tusho> ais523: .net is the best genericized one, probably
20:00:39 <tusho> because .com 'feels' commercial, kind of
20:00:42 <tusho> and .org feels organizational
20:00:44 <tusho> but .net just feels generic
20:00:52 <tusho> so i think if you want a generic tld to use, .net is the way to go
20:01:35 <fizzie> I did think about getting "zzie.fi" because of the nickname, but maybe not.
20:01:49 <tusho> fizzie: you could get fizz.ie
20:02:09 <fizzie> "Surprisingly" the name "zzie" was not taken.
20:02:13 <tusho> a friend has http://hideou.se/ though, that's where the counter is
20:02:20 <tusho> (his online moniker is Hideous)
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20:31:34 <ais523> arguably it already has, but everyone just calls it stupid and ignores it
20:34:44 <ais523> oh, anything so random and stupid it doesn't even seem to count as art
20:43:27 <tusho> postmodernism is bullshit
20:43:37 <tusho> postpostmodernism is not postbullshit, though
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20:53:39 <oerjan> did something happen to g?
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20:57:46 <oerjan> that's some serious time dilation you've got there. look out for black holes.
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21:11:30 <tusho> who votes i should get tusho.net
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21:48:12 <tusho> ok,,,hehehehhehehe......
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22:35:33 <tusho> an internet stalker
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