00:00:14 -!- Corun_ has joined. 00:00:45 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:07:54 v 00:08:40 oh man 00:08:42 this pizza 00:08:45 is amazin 00:08:46 g 00:15:08 sleep night tired tired -> 00:25:31 -!- tusho has quit. 00:31:27 lmfao 00:31:33 i like oklopol is tired, so tusho leaves. 00:31:34 :D 00:43:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:26:33 -!- Corun_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:40:35 -!- olsner has joined. 03:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | make sure u add some easter eggs. 04:17:00 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 05:28:31 02:31:30 psygnisfive: i like oklopol is tired, so tusho leaves. <<< what does this sentence? 05:28:44 (sentence was the verb there.) 05:45:36 It sentences you to be liked by psygnisfive. 05:45:44 A fate worse than death, maybe? 05:47:48 quite so indeed very much, yes. 05:48:11 gotta leave, time for some design and analysis of algorithms 05:50:24 now -> 05:50:25 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"). 05:57:05 i like how* 05:57:12 oh, i see. 05:57:16 lame oklopol. :( 06:03:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:16:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:37:25 -!- oklopol has joined. 06:37:37 this guy is so clueless 06:45:40 what? 06:46:43 -!- psygnisfive has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 06:47:29 Your interactions, they seem non-progressive. 06:48:08 :D 06:48:27 that was the funniest thing in days 06:49:34 quitting jokes are always funny 07:02:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:03:48 optbot: a veritable programming omelet 07:03:49 oerjan: i see 07:04:14 *omelette 07:08:58 Can you make a programming omelette without breaking a few languages? 07:09:16 only, as i implied, by having enough easter eggs 07:10:39 if your languages _are_ your easter eggs, you are probably in trouble 07:12:50 i guess this is one place such trouble is to be expected 07:13:09 For some reason I though it was oklopol you were chatting with. 07:13:30 but we already established oklopol is you 07:13:42 well you did while i was away 07:19:47 -!- shachaf has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:20:31 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 07:25:00 oerjan: nono, fizzie is the other one 07:25:24 not enough languages have easter eggs 07:25:32 well, probably even interpreters 07:25:36 that may be true 07:29:20 well there's a swedish guy on the chan 07:29:20 actually not anymore 07:29:20 that was AnMaster 07:29:24 what channel? 07:29:37 There's one in MS's QBasic, apparently. 07:30:12 it must be hard to be a swedish guy in MS's QBasic 07:30:29 Yes, I don't envy him. 07:31:22 um? I never used qbasic 07:31:45 in fact I never ever coded in BASIC 07:32:31 of course not, you just live there 07:32:46 hard to code from the _inside_ of a PL 07:32:56 I began with AppleScript on OS 7, not with BASIC 07:32:58 unless it is really good at reflection 07:33:01 :P 07:33:19 applescript would be better for a swede, i hear it can be translated 07:33:26 it can? 07:33:30 maybe 07:33:36 never checked that 07:33:50 AnMaster: #vjn 07:33:58 oklopol, ah, never been there 07:34:03 so must have been someone else 07:34:17 wouldn't you have to understand finnish for that? 07:35:10 well I don't understand Finnish 07:36:50 AnMaster: it was a joke 07:37:01 also you don't need to know finnish there 07:37:07 too early in the morning for that 07:38:08 yaaaarrrr 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:21:20 -!- oklofok has joined. 08:21:26 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 08:35:38 -!- oerjan has quit ("You are no match for my punny weapons"). 08:42:24 Deewiant, about new thread in t not being moved in F98... Well that depends on at what point you do your "move ip forward": 08:42:34 -!- jix has joined. 08:42:44 for ip in ips { 08:42:50 move forward; 08:42:54 execute instruction 08:42:55 } 08:42:59 or if you reverse those 09:19:23 fizzie, I assume that PPC you tested on got inet_pton(), right? 09:33:08 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 09:33:54 Sure. 09:38:06 -!- Corun has joined. 09:44:27 fizzie, you soon won't need that patch to src/fingerprints/SOCK/SOCK.c then 09:44:51 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 09:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i'll do that. 10:03:24 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 10:17:29 AnMaster: yes, but it 10:17:55 's fairly obvious to me that it's meant to be done such that you execute first 10:18:06 because you start at (0,0) 10:18:14 and you're meant to execute that 10:18:55 Also the spec: "instructions encountered by each IP are dealth with -- and each IP *then* moves as specified" 10:19:05 Dealt, not dealth. 10:20:07 It sure sounds to me like the new thread should execute that 't'. 10:21:01 it's not impossible to make useful programs even that way (just p something other than a t on top of the t) 10:21:10 but I doubt it was the intent anyways 10:21:31 and I think you'd spawn a minimum of 2 new threads that way 10:21:47 Well, you could have one additional thread doing the 'p'ing. 10:22:36 The one which is executed just after the original thread hitting the 't'. 10:23:11 Would be quite tricky to time it right, though. 10:23:45 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 10:25:11 no, I think it can't be done 10:25:18 IP 0 hits t 10:25:24 -- tick 10:25:28 IP 1 hits t 10:25:30 IP 0 hits p 10:25:33 -- tick 10:25:36 we have 3 IPs now. 10:26:01 Yes, but if you already earlier have generated the IP to do that p. 10:26:28 So that it executes during the same tick when IP 0 hits the t. 10:28:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:29:07 yeah, but you need to have hit a t to do that anyway :-) 10:29:23 Yes, but only the first t needs to generate two new threads. 10:29:38 And the "spare" one can then do the 'p'ing for all the rest of the 't's. :p 10:31:48 It's still saner than the "all threads share the common stack" concurrency there was in either Befunge-96 or Funge-97. Although I don't remember where I read that from. 10:40:17 fizzie, I never seen befunge-96 or funge-97 specs 10:40:29 was never able to find them 10:41:22 I can't seem to find them right now either, but I have a strong recollection that somewhere I've seen it mentioned that in concurrent Befunge-96 the stack is shared between threads. 10:42:10 hm 10:42:12 bbiab 10:44:06 Heh, the only reference I could find right now was #esoteric log for 2004-05-27, where I said the same thing, and didn't remember whether it was '96 or '97 then either. 10:46:56 I guess it is possible I have imagined the whole thing. Maybe it was on the esolang mailing list, I don't know where my archives of that are. 11:06:53 fizzie, SOCK and the -W flags bit now fixed 11:06:59 the LDFLAGS: not yet 11:07:03 might take some time 11:15:15 Yes, I haven't had the time to look at that yet either. 11:34:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:35:28 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:03:29 -!- tusho has joined. 12:16:17 -!- kar8nga has joined. 12:26:29 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:40:11 d 12:42:33 -!- ais523_ has joined. 12:45:35 hi ais523 12:45:38 wt 12:45:40 hi tusho 12:45:40 have you been here as ais523? 12:45:42 if so, for how long? 12:45:42 still not slept? 12:45:48 no, I did sleep 12:45:56 and I wasn't here yesterday 12:46:02 although I didn't spend all yesterday asleep 12:46:14 I spent much of it working on the linker for gcc-bf 12:46:15 ais523: so how long has this been here? 12:46:24 were you actually here until ais523_ joined? 12:46:30 if not, who is ais523 12:46:33 ah, I'm ais523 12:46:39 I didn't even notice my nick has changed 12:46:39 ok 12:46:48 ais523_: so how long have you been here? 12:46:51 since 12:03 at least 12:46:54 since that's when I joined :P 12:46:57 since 11:34 UK time 12:47:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 12:47:04 weird 12:47:05 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 12:47:07 i normally beat you these days 12:47:34 I decided to come in early, needed to beat a deadline on Agora, and there was lots of noise due to work outside our house anyway 12:47:52 :) 12:48:21 incidentally, I think I may be writing the world's first linker that's written in Perl and uses regexen for just about everything 12:48:37 ... 12:48:40 x_x 12:48:46 also I'm probably the first person who just mapped ar to tar and has .a == .tar.gz for object file libraries 12:48:59 .a is just ar 12:49:03 yes, I know 12:49:04 oh, i see 12:49:12 ais523: why not just ar 12:49:14 ar is just a regular archive format 12:49:15 like tar 12:49:19 and i dunno why you need gzip 12:49:22 tusho: yes, I know, but I'm storing large amounts of text 12:49:26 the object files are written in asm 12:49:26 okay, true 12:49:28 ais523: wait 12:49:31 .ar.gz 12:49:32 that's more esoteric. 12:49:37 yes, it would be 12:49:42 do it 12:49:42 :D 12:49:45 does .ar have a gunzip and pipe to stdout option, though 12:49:54 ais523: pipe to something in /tmp 12:50:04 and just do it in two stages 12:50:08 tusho: yuck, libc is about 3 megabytes on my system 12:50:17 I don't want to create a 3MB temporary file every compile 12:50:22 ais523: pipe to /dev/stdout 12:50:23 or whatever it is 12:50:27 something like /dev/fd/0 12:50:31 hmm... might work 12:50:36 ais523: then | that 12:50:39 and both those names are correct, except stdout is /dev/fd/1 12:50:47 stdin is 0 and stderr is 2 12:50:48 ah, use /dev/stdout for clearness then 12:50:52 (esoteric clearness is amusing) 12:51:02 I use /dev/fd/ when golfing because it's 1 char shorter 12:51:09 ha 12:51:43 (it's the only way I know to do input in m4, use directives to change the syntax of the language appropriately then use include /dev/fd/0 to include the input) 12:52:56 I only need to implement close _execve _exit _fork_r fread fstat fstat64 fwrite getpid isatty kill link lseek open rename sbrk stat strtod unlink write now to get newlib fully working, it can implement the whole of libc in terms of those 12:53:11 _fork_r I'll use the DJGPP method I think 12:53:25 (although possibly I could write a Brainfork version with genuine forking?) 12:53:36 ais523: no, no 12:53:41 make forking work in brainfuck 12:53:52 (for processes A and B just execute instructions as ABABABABAB etc) 12:54:02 tusho: that would make things more complicated (although not excessively more complicated) so I'll do it later 12:54:13 ais523: yay, i like "I'll do it later" 12:54:15 the main problem being that I'd need multiple stacks and multiple sets of registers 12:54:18 it signifies that things will be crazier in the future 12:54:21 tusho: once I've got the core working 12:54:25 :D 12:54:46 hmm... something must be wrong with my newlib dependencies script 12:54:47 ais523: well, you've just pwned GregorR in like a fifth of the time 12:54:49 :D 12:55:07 I'm reasonably sure it's read/write it needs not fread/fwrite 12:55:14 i mean, c2bf took months 12:55:17 because it does all the stdio streams stuff itself 12:55:18 and can barely do anything 12:55:38 tusho: probably more efficient than this, though, stdio overhead is massive 12:56:10 ais523: but his was just a syntax layer over bf. 12:56:14 it didn't even have stdio 12:56:28 well I'm even trying to get setjmp and varargs working 12:56:44 if you join #esoteric-blah, I'll paste you my setjmp and longjmp there 12:56:56 gcc has __builtin_setjmp and __builtin_longjmp which also work but are slower 12:57:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Excess Flood). 12:58:02 l m a o 12:58:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:58:48 ugh, freenode things 96 lines is flooding 12:59:13 ais523 12:59:15 your client SUCKS 12:59:22 every good client automatically rate-limits 12:59:44 tusho: Konqueror warns instead 12:59:46 but it warns even for 2-line pastes 12:59:50 konqueror? 12:59:50 :P 12:59:53 itym konversation. 13:00:02 but yea it should do both 13:00:04 warn+rate limit 13:01:18 ais523: you are batshit insane 13:01:34 yes, I do 13:02:30 ais523: was that purposefully nonsensical? 13:05:00 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:05:17 tusho: am I alright? 13:05:28 ais523 appears to be able to receive messages but not send them atm 13:05:29 ais523_: what 13:05:34 yes 13:05:36 i can see 13:05:50 ais523_: Can you see this? 13:05:52 ais523's sending too, but doesn't seem to be showing up in-channel 13:06:08 ais523_: probably because it's flooding #esoteric-blah 13:06:10 tusho: yes, so did ais523 13:06:21 yes, probably 13:06:59 oh well, using netcat for a bit is a nice change 13:07:15 how far did ais523 get in #esoteric-blah? 13:07:26 I posted the whole of longjmp in #esoteric-blah, anyway, a bit at a time 13:07:38 that should give you some idea of what ABI looks like 13:07:54 tusho: that took me about 10 minutes to write 13:07:54 yay, ais523's coming through now, just very slowly 13:07:58 ABI isn't that hard, it's like writing in PEBBLE 13:08:06 no 13:08:10 I mean, asm looks bad, but it's not that bad when you get used to it 13:08:12 this should give me some record ping times 13:08:14 especially if you invented the command-set yourself 13:08:35 ais523: here is what i saw 13:08:38 -!- jix has joined. 13:08:40 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:08:56 ais523: you are batshit insane 13:08:56 yes, I do 13:08:56 ais523: was that purposefully nonsensical? 13:09:08 your lag results in dada. 13:09:28 wait, you won't have been able to see that 13:09:40 what 13:09:42 'yes, I do 13:09:43 '? 13:09:45 because i did. 13:09:57 ais523 just said "tusho: that was badly out of sync, I thought I was replying to an entirely different comment" 13:10:01 ah 13:10:02 yes 13:10:03 i know 13:10:07 that's why i said lag->data 13:10:09 :P 13:10:19 yes, this is confusing... 13:10:49 Freenode should really give some clue as to what a sensible flood rate is... 13:11:16 ais523_: your client should adequately ratelimit it 13:11:18 get a better one 13:11:30 that's annoying, I like Konversation in other ways 13:11:35 even colloquy ratelimits 13:11:38 even though it has all sorts of weird quirks 13:11:46 ais523_: Perhaps there is a plugin for konversation to do it. 13:12:00 it's nicer to use than chatzilla which I used to use on the SunOS systems here 13:12:13 (anything to get a nice Unix command-set rather than Windows...) 13:12:38 ais523_: you do not respond to VERSION 13:13:08 tusho: yes I do, just very slowly 13:13:14 oh, ha 13:13:35 tusho: I wouldn't be surprised if ais523 wasn't responding at the moment 13:14:32 tusho: pinging me every second is annoying, it's hard to type with CTCPs turning up in the middle of what I'm typing 13:14:36 ais523_: you oughta respond to my pings 13:14:42 tusho: I did 13:14:57 I sent them all in the same CTCP, if your client can't handle that it's its problem 13:15:20 ais523_: TIME != PIN 13:15:20 There is the flood-control algorithm of RFC2813; not everyone might do it like that, but it should be reasonably safe if you stay well below that limit. 13:15:22 G 13:15:24 hmm 13:15:26 not showing up here 13:15:28 ais523_: Is that in the spec? 13:15:38 ais523_ tries to come up with a way to do /ignore using grep 13:15:46 can you see this? 13:15:49 yes 13:15:50 me: ping 13:15:51 tusho: yes, but nobody handles ctcps except at the start of a line 13:15:57 tusho: yes 13:16:24 yay, ais523 just received the pings it sent 11 minutes ago 13:16:30 tusho: that was badly out of sync 13:16:32 tusho: yes I can 13:16:34 I thought I was replying to an entirely different comment 13:16:51 [13:16] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 776 seconds. 13:17:08 my longest ever genuine ping time! 13:17:26 tusho: I can't tell a CTCP from a /msg over netcat 13:17:35 so I'm treating all your CTCPs like /msgs at the moment 13:17:38 ais523_: i'll put CTCP in front of them 13:17:43 alternatively: cat -v, dude 13:18:25 yay, ais523 is working again 13:18:26 -!- jix has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 13:19:03 hmm 13:19:14 i am going to make a shell client that just seds and greps an nc 13:19:39 it'll even do nick highlighting 13:19:44 tusho: that's almost a good idea, responding to pings is the hardest thing to do there 13:19:47 s/$nick/\7$nick/ 13:19:51 or whatever 13:20:00 unless you're retyping the pings by hand 13:20:17 on Freenode you can prevent the server pinging you by pinging it proactively, that doesn't work on other networks though 13:20:21 i need to call it something which reflects how much it hates you 13:20:23 'bastard' 13:20:32 'git' 13:20:39 ais523_: yes, that was my joke 13:20:44 also on Bitch-X 13:20:56 btw what do you think of setjmp.S and longjmp.S? 13:21:03 ais523_: i don't get them 13:21:04 P 13:21:05 I would just use .s but newlib prefers .S for some reason 13:21:07 :P 13:21:27 -!- ais523_ has quit ("have I been connected with this long enough to get a genuine quit message?"). 13:21:38 yes I had apparently 13:22:17 Isn't .S gcc's way of specifying "assembler source but with C preprocessor in front of it"? 13:22:30 ah, that's it 13:22:34 newlib was using the C preprocessor 13:22:39 bastard's slogan will be "fuck goddamn" 13:22:42 "bastard: fuck goddamn" 13:23:11 cpp would be useful for writing ABI really, it can be very repetitive 13:23:18 no mov instruction for register to register you see 13:23:24 it's all done with transfer-additions 13:23:36 which is basically [->+<] 13:24:27 ais523: have you seen my collection of fungot poetry 13:24:28 tusho: i have ideas but i am fnord 13:24:37 there's one right there! 13:24:43 and I haven't seen it collected, no 13:24:58 here ya go: 13:25:11 ais523: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1192758 13:25:23 you can see the progression there, short, brief poetry to verbose yarns with incredibly long lines that are syntaxless 13:25:28 and then a slight return into minimalism 13:25:39 fungot's last line suggests his new poetry will be incredibly tiny, one line works 13:25:39 tusho: not sure if that makes any sense 13:26:29 wait, I thought you said the last line there... 13:26:32 not paying much attention 13:26:40 :D 13:26:50 "not quite sure why you would use car that many times. basically everyone seems to think that i shall never hear a poem frightful as a bear, that keeps pooping primes." 13:26:52 is just brilliance 13:27:00 what the fuck you are doing? /leave scheme /join java? is there such a thing 13:27:07 probably my favourite line out of the lot 13:27:48 i like "one of my formally fnord questions consists of ordering 25 functions by their asymptotic behaviour. :(" 13:27:52 Huh, the prime number pooping bear site has disappeared? :/ It was a Finnish site and everything. 13:28:08 fizzie: aw, i was hoping it thought of a bear that poops primes by itself 13:28:17 counting to ten modulo two before punching him? <--- if only everyone did that, "I'm going to punch you when I reach ten. 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1..." the world would be a more peaceful place 13:28:18 and then decided that a poem can be as frightful as that 13:28:26 and how people think that he'd never see a poem as frightful 13:28:36 ais523: haha, totally 13:28:48 Nope, there was a website with a picture of a bear, plus a Javascript primality tester, and the prime numbers fell out of the bear's... rear end, you know. 13:28:58 fizzie: that is... beautiful 13:29:32 I like the asymptotic behaviour quote too though 13:29:42 ais523: probably just a verbatim sentence 13:29:44 even though it's likely verbatim from /scheme apart from the fnord 13:29:46 with one rare word replaced with fnord 13:29:51 s/\//#/ 13:29:58 ais523: /leave scheme /join java 13:30:06 http://informationnation.blogspot.com/2005/01/numbers-up-wazoo.html has a picture of it, but the link is dead. 13:30:17 tusho: I already posted that, I'll post it again though because I like it so much 13:30:23 ais523: yes, i know 13:30:25 what the fuck you are doing? /leave scheme /join java? is there such a thing 13:30:25 ais523: it allows sideeffects. 13:30:33 fizzie: wow. 13:30:50 fizzie: is it in Wayback? 13:31:03 Hmm, maybe. 13:31:07 ais523: yes 13:31:13 http://web.archive.org/web/20061209081231/http://members.surfeu.fi/kklaine/tpnsb/poopbear.html 13:31:15 needs IE, it seems 13:31:21 beh 13:31:31 http://www.primenumbershittingbear.com/ is squatted 13:31:35 wait, I need 2 support to beh nowadays, don't I? 13:31:41 tusho: wtf would someone squat that/ 13:31:55 ais523: it was registered, apparently 13:31:56 but 13:32:01 bots scan the 'recently expired' list 13:32:04 and basically buy all of them 13:32:11 then sell them for ridiculous prices 13:32:15 thus fucking over anyone who forgets to renew 13:32:36 anyway, even though that wayback link is from 2006 13:32:39 the news update is from 2003 13:32:44 it'll have been squatted for years 13:32:51 well, some clever domain name registrar could make millions by registering a huge number of sites to themselves for a couple of days, then putting them on the recently expired list 13:33:02 and getting a fortune for all the bots buying from them 13:33:12 ais523: probably illegal 13:33:14 brb 13:33:25 I think it ran in at least some firefox version; the archive.org version seems a bit brokened though. 13:35:12 And actually the "asymptotic behaviour" quote was a #esoteric comment by SimonRC in 2006-12-03: the fnord is "assessed". 13:36:51 * ais523 puts a fungot quote in eir sig 13:36:52 ais523: but i think there's a simple way of minimizing cache misses otherwise 13:36:55 -!- ais523 has left (?). 13:36:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:37:31 probably better take it out again, though, it could offend someone in theory 13:37:59 ais523: so? 13:38:00 I replaced it with a 99 bottles of beer program 13:38:05 written in HQ9+ so it fits in a sig 13:38:27 the only people it'd offend are complete prudes 13:38:28 and who cares? 13:38:42 fizzie: assessed is surely more common 13:38:44 than that 13:38:46 well, I do to some extent, I don't like offending prudes because I may need favours from them later 13:39:18 wtf? someone turned one of the reader comments from an MFD comic into a Flash game 13:39:36 @logreading prudes: now playing wolfgang amadeus mozart - leck mich im arsch 13:39:39 tusho: Not in my logs: 13:39:41 fis@hactar:~/irclogs$ grep assessed freenode/#esoteric/* freenode/#scheme/* ircnet/#douglasadams/* | wc -l 13:39:44 1 13:39:48 fizzie: wow 13:39:55 fizzie: 'twill be a lot more than 1 now... 13:40:23 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Magenta-Kong.aspx 13:40:25 Well, it _is_ common _now_. That log-place doesn't get updated except by manual rsyncing from the actual host I run my client on every now and then. 13:40:44 I don't have Flash installed here because it seems to be the biggest security hole in all 3 major OSs, which is saying something 13:41:04 Now it's 4, so if I ever rebuild that language model again, fungot will have learned a new word. Yay. 13:41:05 fizzie: so no exlusive or either. must be all right if i guess that 13:41:07 ais523: why would anyone respect mfd like that 13:41:23 tusho: bashing MfD has a really strong following nowadays 13:41:29 ais523: but that's not bashing 13:41:32 the MfD-basher community really churn out some interesting stuff 13:42:00 if I ever meet mark bowytz in person... 13:42:01 >:E 13:42:22 ...and they're allowing text comments on it! 13:42:30 are they? 13:42:36 pics or it didn't happen 13:42:38 (arf arf arf) 13:42:38 knowing Alex I expected em to allow only comments in the form of Flash games 13:43:40 [[Sorry folks - no MFD Extra from me today - no way am I going do anything that might steal Matt C.'s spotlight (I know you're all disappointed) ]] 13:43:46 oh no, mark 13:43:49 it's okay 13:43:52 you take a nice good holiday 13:44:16 anyway MfD is a lot better nowadays than it used to be, which isn't saying much 13:44:54 Note: There is no working Chromium-based browser on Linux. Although many Chromium submodules build under Linux and a few unit tests pass, all that runs is a command-line "all tests pass" executable. 13:45:13 ais523: yes 13:45:13 ? 13:45:14 in other words, nothing works except the testsuite, which reports that everything is fine... 13:45:18 ais523: er, no 13:45:20 all the internals work 13:45:24 there just isn't a frontend UI 13:45:35 yes, I thought it was funnier when I put it that way, though 13:45:46 :p 13:46:08 ais523: oh, and they fixed the eula 13:46:12 you can try it under wine now. 13:46:40 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:47:04 You need a JavaScript-capable browser to download this software. Click here for instructions on how to enable JavaScript in your browser. 13:47:05 ais523: and yes, the custom window chrome is ugly but they actually had to do it, the default XP chrome didn't let them paint in the right place 13:47:12 the vista chrome lets them, though: 13:47:13 http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/google_chrome_beta_07.jpg 13:47:15 so it looks a lot nicer 13:47:20 and apparently os x lets them too 13:47:53 ais523: probably for their OS detection code 13:47:55 still, silly 13:48:42 tusho: you can paint outside the client area on Windows, I did it for my decimal clock program 13:48:52 ais523: there's some specific reason that i don't know 13:48:52 all sorts of weird things break if you aren't careful though 13:48:57 but they couldn't get it to work right 13:49:08 and i'm going to go out on a limb here and say that google probably know, ais523 13:49:10 and there was a problem anyway 13:49:17 Even with Google's superintelligent space monkeys, they couldn't make it work! 13:49:21 it seems...likely. 13:49:33 tusho: my guess is that's what they are doing, but it overwrites XP's theming and so they have to simulate it themselves 13:49:42 yes 13:50:52 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 13:51:19 -!- sebbu2 has quit ("@+"). 13:54:39 tusho: I didn't agree to the EULA in the end, I read the source of the webpage to see where it downloaded from and just downloaded directly 13:54:55 ais523: you've agreed to it anyway 13:55:04 all stuff has a clause saying that by downloading & using the software you agree to the eula 13:55:07 that was after telling Konqueror to pretend to be IE6 so that I could get at the Windows download 13:55:11 tusho: yes but I didn't agree to that clause 13:55:17 ais523: it's always outside of the eula 13:55:21 in some other area of fineprint 13:55:22 sorry. 13:55:29 tusho: well I didn't agree to that fineprint either 13:55:34 ais523: you can't do that 13:55:43 they only let you download it on the condition that you accept them 13:57:18 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:57:27 ais523_: mibbit in chrome? 13:57:31 no 13:57:35 Konversation inside sandbox 13:57:45 ais523_: your username and realname is chromewine 13:57:48 I'm not the sort of person who runs random executables with access to everything... 13:58:00 tusho: yes, that's the sandbox name 13:58:05 ais523_: ah. :P 13:58:13 this has Internet access and not much else 13:58:22 I figured that a browser would want Internet access... 13:58:26 ais523_: does it have the neccessary windows libs for chrome... 13:58:58 probably not 13:59:56 nah, it doesn't run at all under Wine 14:00:00 just exits instantly 14:00:05 Google probably check for that, knowing them 14:00:10 anyway, off to delete the sandbox... 14:00:13 no 14:00:15 it works for some people 14:00:17 in wine 14:00:18 i've seen screenshots 14:00:21 -!- ais523_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:00:23 so they definitely don't check for wine 14:00:27 why would they, anyway? 14:00:31 i don't see how that's a googley-thing to do 14:00:50 because they know it wouldn't work and don't want a massive crash? 14:01:03 then how come it works for loads of people 14:01:14 probably I have Wine set up wrong for it 14:01:24 or they got some separate Windows libraries for it from somewhere 14:04:37 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:04:58 hmm 14:05:53 * tusho the hard part with bastard is making it talk back to nc 14:05:55 er 14:05:56 the hard part with bastard is making it talk back to nc 14:06:31 apparently Chrome has 1% of the browser market already 14:06:34 which is pretty impressive 14:06:40 wow 14:06:48 that means it's beating all of Linux combined... 14:07:03 lmao 14:07:56 IE7 at 46.8%, IE6 at 25.2%, IE8 at 0.22% 14:08:36 Firefox at 19.7%, Safari at 6.4%, Opera at 0.74% are the other ones used often enough to show up on the statistics 14:11:26 OK, this is great, apparently the major UI guideline behind Chrome is "Content not chrome", which makes sense, but contradicts their name somewhat... 14:14:22 ah, I am still online, occasionally I drop off the Internet and don't notice for hours, still typing random monologues into IRC... 14:14:54 ais523: the point is that the web app provides the chrome 14:15:01 and the browser stays out of the way 14:15:01 well, yes 14:15:06 so Google Chrome lets you access the "real" chrome 14:15:07 I agree with the design principle 14:15:14 it's just that the name's a bit ironic.... 14:15:17 ais523: i'm just explaining how the name is actually fitting 14:15:29 they're helping the user see the _real_ chrome 14:15:32 is the idea 14:15:57 such as a page which looks like a normal black-and-white unstyled webpage whose background changes colour when you mouse over the links? 14:16:05 yes 14:16:06 :) 14:17:02 hmm... one evil-ish thing Google are doing with Chrome is basing it on a BSD-licenced open-source project and then distributing a binary that's not compiled from the sources they give 14:17:15 ais523: how do you know it's not compiled from those sources... 14:17:16 which is really annoying to people like me, it makes it so hard to just look at things and fix thigns 14:17:26 tusho: well there are changes in it somewhere 14:17:30 ais523: how do you know 14:17:31 or it would just have the same name 14:17:36 er, no 14:17:46 google tends to give its oepn source projects different names 14:17:47 they could have just changed a few string constants, but given that they're going to all that trouble they probably changed more 14:17:48 to the actual products 14:17:53 ais523: no... 14:18:04 chrome IS built from the chromium sources 14:18:16 but with modifications, almost certaibly 14:18:25 the chromium sources will be involved somewhere, obviously 14:18:25 ais523: eagerly awaiting evidence 14:18:31 none given so far, just a blanket assertation 14:18:36 currently not believing. 14:18:44 I don't know for certain, I just think it's a lot more likely than the alternative 14:18:51 what. that they open sourced the browser? 14:18:55 ZOMG IMPOSSIBLE 14:19:16 tusho: that the non-open-source download with an EULA before you can even download it is exactly the same as an open-sourced BSD version 14:19:30 why bother putting an EULA on an entirely open-source browser? 14:19:35 ais523: um, firefox 3. 14:20:00 http://www.toad.com/gnu/sysadmin/index.html#firefox-eula-sux 14:20:48 *CONSPICUOUS SILENCE* 14:20:57 tusho: I've never seen an EULA on Firefox, obviously there's one in that tarball 14:21:04 ais523: no, there is 14:21:05 but why when everyone redistributing it just takes it out? 14:21:09 it's just that distros pre-install it 14:21:10 so you never see it. 14:21:16 tusho: nor agree to it 14:21:19 which is the important point here 14:21:20 ais523: not the point. 14:21:25 "why bother putting an EULA on an entirely open-source browser?" 14:21:26 is the point, definitely 14:21:27 firefox 3 has one 14:21:31 ergo your argument for it being modified because of that 14:21:32 is ridiculous 14:21:50 well I think putting one on Firefox 3 is also ridiculous, because anyone could just edit it out 14:21:59 ais523: yes, but are you saying that the firefox binaries are modified too? 14:22:03 no, no you're not 14:22:09 so you have no argument 14:22:23 I'm going by name, really, here... 14:22:37 yes, because google always do something evil because they are a corporation 14:22:40 oh wait...mozilla corporation 14:22:50 and I would have a priori suspected Firefox to be modified if it showed me an EULA... 14:23:03 ais523: why don't you ask in #chromium? 14:23:08 Real chrome developers are in there. Tons of them. 14:23:10 They're opped. 14:23:11 interesting idea, presumably it exists by now 14:23:15 it does 14:23:20 like 100 members. 14:23:22 and all the ops are chrome developers. 14:24:19 well I'm there now, reading the FAQ first before I say anything though 14:25:55 I learn Web manners on Usenet... 14:25:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:26:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:26:55 ah, I found Wine's entry on Chrome, there's a lot of magic needed to make it work under Wine 14:27:23 ais523: are you going to ask #chromium now? 14:27:32 may as well 14:28:35 I asked, no response yet 14:28:37 I'll wait a while 14:28:47 you asked 60 seconds ago 14:28:55 are you purposefully being impatient? 14:29:00 yes, some channels respond instantly but apparently it wasn't one of those 14:29:06 there you go. 14:29:09 I'm just classifying channels by wait length 14:29:13 just the copyrighted artwork 14:29:22 hmm... so it's a Firefox/Iceweasel-type distinction 14:29:31 no, I believe Chromium is built as "Chrome" too 14:29:33 that makes sense 14:29:34 just without the icon 14:29:37 not sure though 14:29:43 right then 14:29:53 ais523: of course, it's google. they're probably lying, right 14:29:54 tusho: this is the point where we both claim to have been right... 14:29:59 and no, I believe that 14:30:10 it's just at this point I'm pretty sure we'll both claim the evidence backs up our point of view 14:30:13 well, I was right in that no, they haven't done anything evil and changed code 14:30:16 so let's just drop the topic here 14:30:17 they've just patched in artwork 14:30:22 but you're right that there are modifications 14:30:26 just not the kind you expected 14:30:28 ah, I consider patched-in artwork to be changed code, really 14:30:34 barely, though 14:30:37 and certainly not evil if you ask me 14:30:46 I wasn't accusing them of being evil, necessarily 14:31:11 BTW there are direct links to the installer all over the place, so it's easy enough to download the code without even knowing it has an EULA... 14:32:04 anyway my wine isn't new enough to run it, so I'll just wait for a Linux version for the time being 14:38:53 ais523: there is a reddit commenter who is claiming it is completely impossible to hate metallica because you think their music sucks 14:39:03 they claim that all the haters just hate them because they hate napster 14:39:09 interesting... 14:39:09 furthermore, they are claiming it with 100% literate english 14:39:14 and replying to every single person who argues with them 14:39:21 it's half amusing, half pathetic. 14:40:44 ais523: http://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/6zg2e/cough_metallica_cough/c05a7rx 14:40:51 "Your favorite metal band probably fucking loves Metallica, dickheads. What does your primitive little brain make of that?" 14:41:22 hi optbot, fungot 14:41:22 ais523: i was just checking 14:41:22 ais523: that would just be a one-letter recursive acronym 14:41:40 ah yes, one-letter recursive acronyms 14:41:49 like the C IAQ claimed that "C" was, probably the best joke in the whole IAQ 14:41:57 (which has now gone down, but was good while it lasted) 14:42:12 it's down?! 14:42:13 NOOOOOOOOOOOO 14:42:21 ais523: liar 14:42:21 http://www.seebs.net/faqs/c-iaq.html 14:42:27 tusho: it's been Wayback-only for years, I though 14:42:29 no 14:42:33 it's been up since forever 14:42:41 you mean I've been visiting it on Wayback all these years rather than directly for no reason? 14:42:51 yes 14:48:22 ais523: incidentally, the author seems to be a mac user 14:48:32 how did you deduce that? 14:48:37 ais523: his homepage. 14:48:49 I impressed a lecturer once by deducing that he used Emacs from one of his slides 14:48:56 ais523: gnu indentation? 14:49:01 ais523: http://www.plethora.net/~seebs/ seems to be the dead, wayback-only version 14:49:12 ais523: [[ 2002/01/17 14:49:12 My programming page has a new version of my utilities package which works on Mac OS X. ]] 14:49:22 http://www.seebs.net/log/ has a post from august 21st 2008 14:49:23 about os x 14:56:41 ais523: well? 14:56:43 how did you work it out 14:56:58 tusho: indentation, as you guessed 14:57:04 nobody indents like that deliberately 14:57:14 sorry, I was too busy doing maths on #nethack 14:57:21 in response to what was probably a stupid question 15:00:26 ais523: rms does. 15:01:14 tusho: incidentally I think cperl-mode does GNU-style indentation too, it's forcing me into one true brace in Perl just to avoid the GNU-style indentation 15:01:23 it does one or the other depending on whether you newline before the { 15:01:35 ais523: well, you SHOULD one true brace perl 15:01:37 that is the convention 15:01:45 why, to make it look more like Python? 15:01:48 no 15:01:50 but that's the convention 15:01:56 in most well-written perl i've seen 15:02:53 "most recently, I switched to Dreamweaver 4, because Adobe seems to have replaced the very helpful staff from GoLive systems (no URL available, they've been destroyed) with a spam-friendly behemoth." 15:02:55 how ironic 15:06:04 ais523: hmmm... 15:06:10 bastard needs something like 15:06:25 cat /tmp/bastard /dev/stdout | nc "$host" "$port" 15:06:30 where it cats them asynchronously 15:06:32 and continually 15:06:36 then i'd just echo to /tmp/bastard 15:06:39 tusho: tail -f? 15:06:43 ais523: possibly 15:06:52 nope 15:06:58 you have to use ctrl-d for tail -f'in /dev/stdout 15:07:09 ah, it probably isn't instapiping 15:07:15 your problem is pipe buffering I think 15:07:27 you could just edit the source code for tail to put a fflush in there 15:07:28 ah, wait 15:07:33 I'll need to sed /dev/stdout anyway 15:07:46 so i can just do tail -f /tmp/bastard| 15:08:03 mmph 15:08:07 wish you could do 'sleep forever' 15:08:20 while true; do; done 15:08:41 that is a busy loop 15:08:44 put a sleep in there so as not to busyloop 15:08:47 yes 15:08:48 i know 15:08:50 wile true; do; sleep 100; done 15:08:55 s/wile/while/ 15:08:56 *1d 15:11:12 ais523: you know there should be a program written to abide by the c iaq perfectly 15:11:16 that actually works 15:11:46 tusho: actually much of the C IAQ does work, if only incidentally, it's deliberately set up like that 15:11:53 exactly 15:11:57 the point is it'd be crazy 15:13:51 www.reddit.com could not be found. Please check the name and try again. 15:14:57 'tworks for me 15:15:57 yes 15:17:30 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 15:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | TO bomb:. 15:57:01 a 15:57:20 go team a! 15:57:25 (#nethack meme) 16:00:00 [[Google has withdrawn the offensive EULA language, but why did they put it there in the first place. Money=corruption.]] 16:00:08 because it was a direct copy&paste of their EULA for all services 16:00:18 which they intentionally try and use for everything to make it simpler for users to grasp 16:00:21 it just so happened it wasn't a great idea in this acse. 16:00:25 jeez, everything is a conspiracy these days 16:01:01 presumably the alternative is calling Google's lawyers incompetent, and it's hard to get people to believe that 16:01:12 although I think that this probably was a mistake 16:01:23 somehow 'incompetent' is not something i'd attribute to a huge megacorp's lawyers 16:01:27 they're very good at what they do... 16:01:29 exactly 16:01:36 even so 16:01:41 it's just an early beta release 16:01:55 and lawyers aren't generally all that good at understanding tech. 16:01:59 see: filesharing stuff 16:02:10 they probably skimmed it over quickly and decided it was fine without really understanding 16:02:17 not incompetence, just a really bad mistake 16:09:59 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:11:19 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:13:08 hi ais523 16:13:18 hi AnMaster 16:13:23 hi tusho_ 16:13:30 eek 16:13:31 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:13:39 what have I done now? 16:13:55 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:14:40 hi tusho_ 16:14:48 * ais523 waits to see if the same thing will happen again 16:14:56 oh no 16:14:57 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:15:14 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:15:16 hi tusho_ 16:15:20 -!- tusho_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:15:30 -!- ais523 has left (?). 16:15:33 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:16:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:16:09 hi tusho_ 16:16:11 oh no 16:16:12 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:16:25 btw did tusho_ say hi to me while I wasn't here? 16:16:43 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:17:07 ais523, no 16:17:16 hi tusho_ 16:17:16 * tusho_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) 16:17:16 * ais523 (n=ais523@sm01-fap04.bham.ac.uk) has left #esoteric ("9") 16:17:16 * tusho_ (n=tusho@91.105.98.27) has joined #esoteric 16:17:16 * ais523 (n=ais523@sm01-fap04.bham.ac.uk) has joined #esoteric 16:17:17 hi tusho_ 16:17:20 oh no 16:17:22 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:17:23 hi tusho 16:17:24 ok, this is just getting silly 16:17:38 clearly tusho_ is some kind of bot, or acting like one to ignore me 16:17:39 ais523, I think he wants to say hi first every time 16:17:46 so I'll /ignore it for the time being 16:17:53 ais523, see my theory 16:17:54 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:17:56 hi tusho 16:17:59 hi tusho_ 16:18:00 -!- tusho_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:18:12 ais523, notice he never quits until you say hi 16:18:21 AnMaster: yes, I noticed that, that's why I think it's a bot 16:18:24 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:18:27 hi tusho_ 16:18:29 -!- tusho_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:18:30 the say-hi-first thing got out of hand ages ago 16:18:40 ais523, so it quits and reconnect? 16:18:43 hmm... maybe I should make a bot that says hi to tusho underscore bot 16:18:47 and apparently so 16:19:02 Remote closed the connection often happens when a bot quits without /quit 16:19:05 ais523, I think the non-underscore tusho is timing out 16:19:15 no CTCP PING reply 16:19:19 yes, same here 16:19:32 not sure if he normally ignores pings or not 16:19:53 no, normally tusho replies, e doesn't always use the same client though 16:20:00 no CTCP version response either 16:20:34 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:20:47 ais523, should I say hi to him? 16:20:54 hi tusho_! 16:20:55 oh no 16:20:56 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:21:03 hmm... maybe write a hibot 16:21:13 if bsmnt_bot was here we could train it to say hi to tusho_ whenever it joined 16:21:23 I trained it to say hi to everyone who joined once 16:21:24 ais523, but why doesn't that bot say hi directly when it connects? 16:21:36 AnMaster: maybe to give other people a chance to say hi first? 16:21:43 -!- tusho_ has joined. 16:21:49 ais523, hm... 16:21:49 that would fit in with tusho's thinking, I think 16:21:52 hi 16:21:54 tusho_: boo 16:21:59 tusho_, hi 16:22:01 oh no 16:22:01 -!- tusho_ has quit (Client Quit). 16:22:03 hm 16:22:19 ah, it's being debugged 16:22:26 note that the quit message was different this time 16:22:32 well, the last two times 16:22:35 ais523, it was that a few times above 16:22:39 ah yes 16:22:42 race condition on exit? 16:22:44 ais523, you are missing one fact 16:22:51 Freenode's IRCd suck 16:22:55 ah 16:22:59 it got a bug with getting wrong quit reasons 16:23:00 well known 16:23:34 ais523, so on freenode about all you can know is that if there is a quoted reason it is *probably* from the person who quit 16:23:37 ;P 16:23:49 heh 16:24:05 I think it uses errno the wrong way, since sometimes I seen * foo has quit (Success) 16:24:11 return code 0 I guess 16:24:15 yep 16:24:18 and sometimes * foo has quit () 16:24:35 Errors with the reason as Success happen too often for me to get amused by them nowadays all that much 16:24:45 ais523, only seen it on freenode 16:24:47 last time I was working on some mmap code where they'd changed the API for it 16:25:02 oh yes I think I saw it on a trunk version of some other ircd, it was fixed pretty quickly 16:25:06 and the example code I had had the version test to determine which arguments to pass backwards 16:25:12 freenode haven't fixed it 16:25:20 so it was getting passed memory with the wrong alignment, and erroring out without setting errno 16:25:26 thus Error: Success. 16:25:36 -!- tusho has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:25:56 ais523, um? that was POSIX mmap()? 16:26:09 uclibc, I think 16:26:17 hm 16:26:23 maybe it was a function that returned an argument for mmap whose API changed 16:26:38 I think C should reflect on error, like befunge :D 16:26:41 would be fun 16:26:49 running the program backwards 16:26:51 you mean run backwards on error? 16:26:58 at the C level, asm level or machine code level? 16:27:09 not sure 16:27:16 which would be most hilarious? 16:27:28 1) a while {} loop would become a do { } while one and vice verse? 16:27:32 could be interesting to see what machine code does when run backwards, it wouldn't be pretty on the x86 as it has 3-byte commands, might work better on some other systems 16:27:40 2) the other options? 16:27:48 asm-level would at least 'work' for certain values of 'work' 16:27:54 oh you would need do { } if 16:28:03 AnMaster: Perl has that 16:28:08 basically do { } xxx; for every construct 16:28:12 it has lots of control-flow operators, someone even implemented but_first 16:28:14 ais523, what does it do? 16:28:24 the do if 16:28:26 AnMaster: evaluates the condition then if it's true runs the command before it 16:28:41 ais523, well that is just like a if with condition after 16:28:47 so much like C if with a different syntax, it's just confusing because it has regular if too 16:28:51 ais523, not like the difference between do while and while 16:28:54 it's hard to see what else it could do, though 16:29:03 an if which always ran the command at least once would be pointless... 16:29:26 but_first is really silly though, clearly it was implemented as an extension by someone messing around rather than being in core 16:29:31 ais523, iirc x86 got variable width commands? 16:29:34 AnMaster: yes 16:29:41 so not only 3 bytes 16:29:51 there are 1 byte ones and maybe even 4 byte ones 16:29:53 right? 16:29:56 yes 16:30:07 I was thinking that reversed 1-byte and 2-byte commands might actually work though 16:30:09 hm what is the range of a 3 byte integer 16:30:11 but more won't 16:30:21 AnMaster: about the right size, MySQL has them I think 16:30:28 ais523, eh? 16:30:37 I asked how many possible 3 byte instructions there are 16:30:44 -8388608 to 8388607 16:30:48 which is a nice range to work with 16:30:48 since I'm pretty sure I seen a 4 byte one 16:31:06 AnMaster: yes, x86 keeps getting extended processor after processor whilst still having backward compatibility 16:31:11 ais523, wait some of the bits on 1 byte ones have to be reserved to mean that it is a 2 or 3 byte one 16:31:14 yes 16:31:28 however as I think I seen 4 byte ones, that means they must have run out of 3 byte ones? 16:31:30 or? 16:31:51 seems likely, there aren't too many possible prefix for 3-byte commands 16:32:12 and the number of commands multiplies up really quickly when you consider that for instance mov eax, ebx and mov eax, ecx are different commands 16:32:16 so basically 2 bytes with the first reserved for some value to mean "multibyte"? 16:32:16 and there are a lot of registers 16:32:30 AnMaster: actually basically 1 byte with some values of the first meaning multibyte 16:32:38 and of the 2 byte commands some values of the pair mean multibyte 16:32:39 and so on 16:32:40 ais523, so parameters are encoded in the instructions themselves? 16:33:00 AnMaster: register parameters are, as are addressing modes, constants and numerical memory addresses aren't 16:33:02 ais523, that means you only get like 255 new ones every time 16:33:14 .. 16:33:23 x86_64 should have tried to clean up that mess 16:33:25 they didn't 16:33:29 AnMaster: well, there's more than one possible prefix to mean multibyte, but it certainly goes to show how they ran out of the mess so quickly 16:33:35 AnMaster: have you heard of Itanium? 16:33:42 -!- tusho has joined. 16:33:42 ais523, yes, VLIW 16:33:43 it was Intel's attempt to clean up that mess, but never really caught on 16:33:45 hi tusho 16:33:48 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:34:18 ais523, well VLIW cause other issues 16:34:19 I think AMD deliberately kept the mess in their x86_64 so that people would be more likely to migrate to it 16:34:24 and Intel copied them 16:34:37 ais523, like being hard to make a good compiler for 16:34:39 -!- tusho has joined. 16:34:44 gcc can manage it 16:34:52 himoscotusholonomy 16:34:52 hi tusho 16:34:53 oh no 16:34:54 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 16:35:02 pity, I wanted to test the regex 16:35:09 ais523, will let you next time 16:35:30 ais523, anyway on VLIW the compiler does the scheduling not the CPU basically 16:35:36 yes, I know the theory 16:35:49 and good scheduling isn't that easy 16:35:55 I think gcc can handle it as Linux was ported to Itanium and it must have been compiled with something 16:36:01 pretty much nothing else was, though 16:36:11 and writing pure ASM for Itanium would be hard 16:36:14 and sometimes you need asm 16:36:16 aargh 16:36:20 for example in low level part of OS 16:36:25 it would be like writing machine code 16:36:29 to set control registers or such 16:36:34 -!- tusho has joined. 16:36:38 ais523, ^ 16:36:38 himoscotusholonomy 16:36:46 not... 16:36:47 hi tusho 16:36:50 oh no 16:36:50 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 16:36:51 ok, no response 16:36:56 to what I said 16:37:01 it would be like writing machine code 16:37:02 so it's probably looking for words 16:37:04 that is what ASM is 16:37:05 normally 16:37:11 -!- tusho has joined. 16:37:11 except symbolic constants 16:37:13 hi tusho 16:37:17 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:37:23 AnMaster: no, in asm normally you don't have to know the bit patterns of the instruction 16:37:29 -!- tusho has joined. 16:37:32 hi tusho 16:37:35 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:37:42 ais523, well you could handle it like this: 16:37:47 -!- tusho has joined. 16:37:48 op1, op2, op3, op4 16:37:50 hi tusho 16:37:50 whereas with asm VLIW there are so many details to set you may as well just write the machine code, and hi tusho 16:37:53 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:37:54 to execute in a cycle 16:38:01 so each line contains a list 16:38:36 -!- tusho has joined. 16:38:40 ais523, also GCC could have been cross compiled 16:38:42 hi tusho 16:38:46 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:38:49 oh you mean linux 16:38:50 right 16:38:53 AnMaster: it's still producing Itanium output though 16:39:01 -!- tusho has joined. 16:39:06 ais523, yes it is, but it could run on something else 16:39:08 and hi tusho 16:39:11 whether it's a cross-compiler or not 16:39:14 oh no 16:39:14 hi tusho 16:39:15 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:39:18 hm 16:39:22 slow to react there 16:39:26 yep 16:39:36 maybe it is a human all along, but I suspect bot, it would be easy enough to write 16:39:41 lets hope he doesn't get blocked from freenode for reconnecting all the time 16:39:42 -!- tusho has joined. 16:39:46 ais523, yes certainly and hi tusho 16:39:50 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:40:02 well, a temporary block might do em good 16:40:06 -!- tusho has joined. 16:40:09 ais523, agreed and hi tusho 16:40:12 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:40:19 lament: online? 16:40:24 however you better join in too ais523 16:40:32 ais523, or he will blame me ;P 16:40:33 -!- tusho has joined. 16:40:37 your time ais523 16:40:37 yes, I keep trying but you keep beating me to it and hi tusho 16:40:47 ... 16:40:54 tusho, hi 16:40:56 oh no 16:40:56 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 16:41:00 ais523, hum 16:41:03 that was very slow to respond to me 16:41:06 ais523, "near beginning of line"? 16:41:15 nah doesn't make snese 16:41:24 seems unlikely unless it's screen-scraping a terminal window 16:41:31 ais523, eh? 16:41:34 OCR? 16:41:34 haha 16:41:41 -!- tusho has joined. 16:41:44 you never no 16:41:46 tusho hi 16:41:50 s/no/know 16:41:52 let see 16:41:55 lets* 16:41:56 s/$/\// 16:42:01 *let's 16:42:04 well 16:42:07 it doesn't work 16:42:08 hi tusho 16:42:10 odd 16:42:15 it's ignoring me I think 16:42:18 tusho, hi 16:42:19 oh no 16:42:19 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 16:42:21 just like I'm ignoring tusho_ 16:42:23 ais523, wonder why 16:43:13 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ohsut. 16:43:18 let's see if it works now 16:43:30 actually, probably the real tusho is logreading and tweaking things just to annoy us 16:44:00 ohsut, well that would be very silly 16:44:17 AnMaster: e wrote a bot once just to repeatedly revert a rule on a nomic 16:44:18 I mean it would sure make sense if he was afk 16:44:26 -!- tusho has joined. 16:44:26 ohsut, he admitted it? 16:44:33 no, but it's pretty obvious 16:44:34 hi tusho 16:44:39 oh no 16:44:46 who else would both have the persistence and care? 16:44:51 isn't it going to quit? 16:44:58 hello tusho 16:45:00 oh no 16:45:01 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 16:45:03 huh 16:45:06 that's just strange 16:45:11 almost positive it's messing with us now 16:45:15 yes 16:45:18 or has an intermittent bug 16:45:27 -!- ohsut has changed nick to ais523. 16:45:30 ohsut, was he doing that in the beginning though? 16:45:42 again, probably, although the bot's behaviour changes from time to time 16:45:45 or is a human acting bot-like 16:45:51 ais523, lets move the talk elsewhere just to mess with him! 16:45:52 ;) 16:45:54 humans are very good at pretending to be IRC bots, I find 16:46:12 AnMaster: I've almost lost track of what we were talking about... 16:46:32 ais523, VLIW 16:46:40 ah yes 16:46:46 it would be like writing machine code 16:46:48 to do asm in it 16:46:49 not entirely sure if that's a good idea or not, possibly not 16:46:58 because it requires so much memory for each command 16:47:08 and memory access speed is the bottleneck in many systems nowadays 16:47:22 yes, it solves a problem P4 had though: 16:47:25 scheduler 16:47:30 long pipeline 16:47:31 and so on 16:47:38 yes, the longer the pipelines the worse things get 16:47:56 ais523, for long pipelines VLIW would actually solve a lot of stuff 16:48:01 to handle scheduling 16:48:02 yes 16:48:12 -!- tusho has joined. 16:48:16 however since that is no longer the paradigm... 16:48:23 ais523, this time lets just ignore tusho 16:48:25 anyway. 16:48:45 hi fungot, optbot 16:48:45 ais523: so as not to attract bears." however, i don't see 16:48:46 ais523: hi 16:48:56 -!- ais523 has changed nick to tushoops. 16:48:59 hi fungot, optbot 16:49:00 tushoops: what's readline? and is the only sane thing to happen 16:49:00 tushoops: ah, yes 16:49:03 hi fungot, optbot 16:49:03 tushoops: I. . . Um. . . 16:49:04 tushoops: it's the first time around 16:49:09 pity, fungot, optbot, say hi! 16:49:10 tushoops: tcl has a type system! 16:49:10 tushoops: hmm... tells the os how to compile the source, like, or= 16:49:11 your bad luck 16:49:16 yes 16:49:18 hi tusho, anyway 16:49:20 -!- tushoops has changed nick to ais523. 16:49:33 oh well, ignore it then 16:49:39 oh no 16:49:46 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 16:49:46 you won't no 16:49:55 ais523, VLIW may not be such a bad idea: 16:49:57 ah, maybe Freenode's doing the same to it as it was doing to me earlier? 16:50:06 forcing ever-longer timeouts due to flooding 16:50:11 1) if you can use all the parts in a cycle it saves scheduling 16:50:23 2) that means a power consuming part is removed 16:50:51 I never really liked hardware scheduling, I preferred either forwarding or a software solution 16:51:04 and 3) a compiler could potentially do more advanced scheduling not realistic in hardware 16:51:12 ais523, so you suggest VLIW then? 16:51:13 but forwarding gets too complicated when you have a long pipeline 16:51:20 AnMaster: I was thinking more about instruction reordering 16:51:32 hm? 16:51:41 instead of telling the processor how to schedule, you literally do all the scheduling yourself and produce pre-scheduled machine code 16:51:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 16:51:58 so if, for instance, jump instructions don't kick in for 3 instructions, you write the jump instruction 3 instructions earlier 16:51:58 ais523, all modern "PC" CPUs can execute several instructions in parallel 16:52:12 for example a floating point operation at the same time as a integer addition 16:52:16 yes, you would presumably have to allow for that too 16:52:28 ais523, that is the reason for VLIW 16:52:37 but that's not all that hard on processors where certain instructions always operate in certain functional units 16:52:55 for instance it's a solved problem by now for the 386 and 387 in parallel, to pick a really old example 16:52:56 ais523, issue: many CPU got several copies of each functional unit 16:53:13 yes, and I don't really know how to deal with that, that's certainly a good reason for trying out something like VLIW 16:53:19 but there are good sides and bad sides to it 16:53:36 yes potential memory waste if you can't use all instructions 16:53:45 for example if you want to run a nop 16:53:47 or whatever 16:54:24 apart from time delays, ideal programs would never need nops 16:54:34 but in practice they're often needed for scheduling or alignment reasons 16:54:43 gcc-bf can get away with just deleting all nops 16:54:52 -!- tusho has joined. 16:54:53 there are sometimes reason for them 16:54:55 in the kerne 16:54:57 kernel* 16:55:01 although I think I'll compile them into the word nop in the BF source code if any are generated 16:55:05 hi ais523 16:55:07 hi AnMaster 16:55:07 for instance by __builtin_nop 16:55:16 oh no 16:55:17 -!- ais523 has left (?). 16:55:22 hahah 16:55:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:55:35 hi ais523 16:55:42 ais523, also hardware scheduling for functional units can only look ahead a limited amount 16:55:46 looks like the bot's finally been fixed, then 16:55:53 hi fungot, optbot, tusho 16:55:53 ais523: yeah 16:55:53 ais523: ( define ( macro... not ( define ( printer x list) ( map quote ( list 1 16:55:55 oh no 16:55:56 -!- tusho has quit (Client Quit). 16:55:59 or not 16:56:09 ais523, but a compiler could look ahead the whole function 16:56:14 yes 16:56:22 trying to do scheduling in hardware is just crazy, really 16:56:27 so in *theory* VLIW could produce better code 16:56:29 yet 16:56:43 what if the next generation of the CPU adds an additional functional unit 16:56:51 then you need to change all programs 16:57:05 to be able to schedule for that unit too 16:57:06 hmm... maybe the ideal solution would be to generate a separate machine-code program for each processor 16:57:18 a clever compiler could rely on the clock speeds to know that everything stayed in sync 16:57:23 make the asm pretty hard to write though 16:57:25 ais523, um? 16:57:55 ais523, anyway it means the compiler must know the details of this exact cpu revision 16:58:04 it means it is harder to add new stuff 16:58:06 AnMaster: yes, but it pretty much has to anyway 16:58:33 ais523, you can compile generic "modern x86" code that will run well on both AMD and Intel CPUs 16:58:52 and most apps don't need that extra speed gained by specific CPU 16:59:15 I mean it is all nice and so, but is it really worth it for, say, a text editor 16:59:16 yes, but as a programmer I don't see why a processor design that forces everything to be compiled from source is a problem 16:59:29 if you don't need the speed then write an x86 emulator and run on that 16:59:52 ais523, CPUs change very fast, think GCC could keep supporting the last or would lag behind? 17:00:21 I reckon it could keep up if the redesigns weren't too large 17:00:22 ais523, anyway you could have versioned instructions 17:00:40 it's easy enough to port it from one CPU to a CPU similar to it 17:01:25 ...... 17:01:28 XD 17:01:35 probably a horrible idea I admit 17:01:49 yep 17:02:13 ais523, probably should have revision of revision number in case we run out of reserved bits for it and need to extend it ;) 17:02:39 AnMaster: this is pretty much the mess with x86 instructions at the moment, unfortunately... 17:02:51 ais523, yes it was a joke :P 17:03:04 x86 machine language is arguably a joke 17:03:06 anyway yes breaking backward compatibility sometimes is a good idea 17:03:31 maybe you could add a control register with a legacy flag 17:03:43 to support the 1 or 2 last incompatible versions 17:03:52 that OSes could set for specific processes 17:04:00 like x86 mode under x86_64 17:04:23 -!- Tritonio1 has joined. 17:04:26 suddenly everyone would be demanding open source or their stuff wouldn't work any longer 17:04:47 yes, it would certainly be adopted a lot more if processors didn't work on closed-source stuff 17:05:01 lets sell this idea, err I mean GPL it to, this to RMS 17:05:17 ;) 17:05:30 arguably processor design would proceed a lot faster if it didn't have to worry about working on closed-source stuff 17:06:16 maybe processors could have a stripped-down C compiler in ROM so that you could run source-code directly, to avoid problems with installing an OS on the computer in the first place 17:06:40 ais523, heh? 17:06:50 and what if that C compiler had a bug? 17:07:01 ais523, no I think that may work very badly 17:07:06 AnMaster: suppose you want to distribute a LiveCD, what sort of binary do you put on it? 17:07:19 AnMaster: it worked back in the days of BBC BASIC 17:07:23 ais523, hm good point 17:07:36 there would be like a hundred different downloads 17:07:39 for OSes 17:07:57 or it would be a massively bloated 10 dvd set 17:08:05 considering some OSes are almost that already 17:08:16 isn't solaris on like 2 DVD? 17:08:40 A full set of Debian designed for all possible processors would be pretty massive 17:08:58 well you could have stripped down netintalls 17:08:59 installs* 17:09:23 hmm... you could have a second processor for downloading the binary of your OS 17:09:30 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:09:36 some computers are getting that already for websurfing etc. on Linux without waiting for Windows to load 17:09:36 ais523, eh? 17:09:52 normally with ARM as the second processor and some x86 or x86 as the main one 17:10:10 ais523, there should probably be some basic boot mode, so you could do like one netinstall cd with maybe 5-10 different CPUs on 17:10:11 you can load the computer up on the second processor for basic web-browsing, or on the first one to use the full speed of the computer 17:10:15 then just enough for boot loader 17:10:15 the second one loads a lot faster 17:10:19 to decide which to load 17:10:24 does that make sense? 17:10:37 yes, it does 17:10:51 still more sense if you have a simple common processor language ro bootstrap things 17:10:59 doesn't really matter what, you could even use brainfuck I suppose 17:11:11 ais523, well hard to handle should there be a bug in that 17:11:21 AnMaster: a bug in a BF interp? 17:11:44 those things should be possible to prove correct mathematically 17:11:46 no I assumed something anyone like a serious OS developer would use :P 17:11:59 I was trying to pick the most portable machine code I knew 17:12:03 which is surely brainfuck 17:12:10 or possibly P'' 17:13:07 1) probably they used just enough rom/ram for the compiler, right? to save money 2) so someone find a bug, fix would grow the stuff in the rom with maybe 20 bytes... 3) there are only 10 bytes free (they rounded it up to nearest kb limit 17:13:19 just can see that happening... 17:13:51 ais523, anyway you would have to write the whole OS in that then? 17:13:52 or? 17:13:55 AnMaster: well you should see the sort of programs that CPU manufacturers ship to flash their microcode 17:14:09 ais523, I know such exist, but I never seem them 17:14:12 luckily I haven't seen any from personal experience 17:14:20 but one was an ActiveX browser control that only worked in IE 17:14:35 and the other only ran on genuine MS-DOS, it wouldn't even work under Windows' emulation of it 17:14:39 ais523, an user space process shouldn't have the needed access 17:14:56 ais523, well I done bios flashing using PC-DOS floppy 17:14:59 AnMaster: well that's what I thought, it at least explains the MS-DOS for the second one 17:15:15 but as a browser control, that's really worrying 17:15:27 ais523, for win95? 17:15:57 on windows 9x IE could have the needed access 17:16:00 without problems I bet 17:16:04 AnMaster: no idea, this is second-hand so I'm repeating what I know but don't know the details 17:16:13 ah 17:16:43 ais523, for intel microcode I think it doesn't stay after reboot, it reverts to the old state, so you have to load it at every boot 17:16:52 support exists under linux at least 17:17:01 needs something in kernel 17:17:05 well there's 915resolution which patches the BIOS every boot 17:17:07 and some user space tool run as root 17:17:08 which I have on here 17:17:23 means I can't hibernate because if I do I get an unpatched BIOS when it resumes from hibernation 17:17:31 915resolution? 17:17:45 -!- tusho has joined. 17:17:53 hi tusho 17:17:57 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:18:00 ais523, also I assume that "915resolution" whatever it is runs at every reboot? 17:18:01 AnMaster: allows an Intel 915 graphics card to handle screen resolutions higher than 1024x768 17:18:05 and yes, it does 17:18:08 ais523, under linux? 17:18:15 it's a service, at runlevel 3 or so 17:18:23 and yes, under Linux 17:18:29 then you could make it rerun after resume 17:18:32 presumably there's something similar buried in the code of Windows somewhere 17:18:35 logically it should be possible 17:18:41 AnMaster: I assumed so, but never bothered to find out how 17:19:01 I suspect it needs to run before the computer tries to switch into graphics mode 17:19:19 at run level 3 that would already have happened I think? 17:19:24 framebuffer 17:19:40 maybe it's 2 then 17:19:44 actually, usplash 17:19:51 so it can switch into graphics mode first 17:20:02 usplash runs at 1024x768 for that reason, I think 17:20:29 well I don't like boot splashes 17:20:46 Ubuntu has one by default, and I can always control-alt-F1 to get rid of it 17:21:04 at which point all the text scrolls by on terminal 1 rather than the usplash 17:21:19 which just shows a progress bar except when fscking 17:21:27 ais523, you run ubuntu? I thought it was debian? 17:21:54 AnMaster: it's pretty hard to tell from outside, but this is Ubuntu 17:22:08 well I mean I thought you said it was debian before 17:22:09 many of the programs claim to be Debian though because Ubuntu never ported them 17:22:22 and I have used Debian systems in the past, not for IRC though I don't think 17:22:23 ported? 17:22:27 as in "recompiled"? 17:22:32 well, yes 17:22:36 ok lazy 17:22:40 recompiled with different version info 17:22:46 $ bash --version 17:22:46 GNU bash, version 3.2.33(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) 17:22:53 well 17:23:04 ais523, where would it say debian 17:23:05 hmm... that doesn't list distro, I suppose it doesn't need to 17:23:07 or gentoo 17:23:09 or whatever 17:23:23 [ 0.000000] Linux version 2.6.25-gentoo-r7-1 (root@tux.lan) (gcc version 4.1.2 20070214 ( (gdc 0.24, using dmd 1.020)) (Gentoo 4.1.2 p1.1)) #2 Sun Aug 3 13:19:47 CEST 2008 17:23:26 AnMaster: Apache's error page seems to know 17:23:36 that says... because I use gentoo patchset 17:23:45 and gcc says for some reason 17:23:58 I guess their patchset is large enough there 17:24:02 ah, my gcc knows it's Ubuntu 17:24:16 ais523, however most non-gcc/binutils/kernel stuff seems to ignore distro 17:24:43 Unless the distro has a fairly significant patchset, of course. 17:25:02 well, I can hardly imagine them editing the C-INTERCAL source to specify that it's Debian in a version string somewhere 17:25:05 well my package manager seems to know ;) 17:25:14 -!- tusho has joined. 17:25:19 package managers need to know which repo to access, and hi tusho 17:25:20 and some other gentoo made apps 17:25:21 hi tusho 17:25:27 hi ais523 17:25:27 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:25:31 heheh? 17:25:35 script gone wrong? 17:25:36 buggy or rate-limited or both 17:25:41 it's probably what happened to me earlier 17:25:50 where pings took over 10 minutes at one point 17:25:55 -!- tusho has joined. 17:25:56 I pasted a lot of text in #esoteric-blah 17:25:57 hi tusho 17:25:58 hi tusho 17:26:08 hi 17:26:08 ais523, just use a pastebin 17:26:10 hi 17:26:12 hi 17:26:13 and as a result messages I sent were delayed about 10 minutes 17:26:14 hi 17:26:15 by Freenode 17:26:16 hi 17:26:18 hi 17:26:20 hi 17:26:22 hi 17:26:23 ais523, heh 17:26:24 hi 17:26:26 hi 17:26:28 hi 17:26:31 hi 17:26:32 hi 17:26:34 hi 17:26:35 well lets ignore tusho 17:26:36 hi 17:26:38 hi 17:26:38 -!- tusho has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:26:41 so it's possible that tusho's current actions have nothing to do with what we're saying at the time 17:26:42 in fact lets get lament to kick him 17:26:48 AnMaster: I tried, but lament wasn't online 17:27:01 also it would need to be a temporary ban, kicking doesn't really work against someone who keeps parting anyway 17:27:03 -!- tusho has joined. 17:27:06 ais523, um the current actions... well after a reconnect any rate limit would be reset 17:27:21 ais523, s/temporary/permanent/ 17:27:37 by "temporary" I meant "remove the ban after a bit" 17:28:05 ais523, well I didn't mean that ;) 17:28:12 and how do you know that Freenode isn't experimenting with a rate limit that works across connections as an antispam method? 17:28:16 it seems in-character for them 17:28:25 hi ais523 17:28:27 /usr/bin $ grep -li Gentoo * | wc -l <-- still waiting 17:28:32 and hi ais523 17:28:33 err 17:28:35 hi tusho 17:28:35 hi AnMaster 17:28:39 hi AnMaster 17:28:43 tusho, so you fixed it? 17:28:45 hi optbot 17:28:45 ais523: hehe 17:28:54 ok that made sense 17:29:17 optbot often does, it seems that half the stuff said in #esoteric would make sense in just about any context 17:29:18 ais523: um? short circut operators? isn't that the default in C? 17:29:26 otoh fungot often makes much less sense 17:29:27 ais523: it would be just 17:30:03 ais523, yes... so they cancel each other out 17:30:15 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 17:30:18 grep -li Gentoo * | wc -l 17:30:20 328 17:30:28 that is number of matching files 17:30:36 I'm waiting for number of non-matching ones 17:30:43 oh and it was in /usr/bin 17:30:57 ok 17:31:19 ais523, actually I think a lot will match because GCC puts a .comment section in with GCC version, and the GCC version strings contain "gentoo" here 17:31:39 it would be a lot more interesting without that .comment section 17:31:39 AnMaster: how many of the /usr/bin executables will have been stripped on your system 17:31:47 ais523, 99% 17:31:49 I expect most of them, probably? 17:31:51 but not from .comment 17:31:54 would that remove the comment? 17:31:59 only from debug symbols 17:32:10 not from other symbol tables 17:32:16 so nm would still make sense I guess 17:32:21 I suppose so 17:32:23 # grep -Li Gentoo * | wc -l 17:32:23 grep: ear: No such file or directory 17:32:23 3059 17:32:29 as for ear it is a borken symlink 17:32:38 to an erlang tool that has been deprecated 17:32:48 -L means "list files without matches" 17:33:01 anyway I filed a bug about package installing that symlink 17:33:17 the interesting part here is that I got so many binaries 17:33:19 AnMaster: I'm trying the same test over here, in /usr/bin and searching for Ubuntu 17:33:20 it is scary 17:33:34 ais523, I mean over 3300 binaries in /usr/bin 17:33:36 wow, and I have a lot of broken symlinks in /usr/bin... 17:33:36 WHY?! 17:33:44 AnMaster: as a comparison 17:33:50 ais523, oh and that doesn't include KDE, KDE is in /usr/kde/3.5/bin 17:33:52 so... 17:34:00 How the heck over 3300 binaries? 17:34:10 lets say some are symlinks 17:34:15 -!- megatron has joined. 17:34:23 -!- moozilla has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:34:37 x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-ld or x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-c++-3.4.6 17:34:40 even then 17:34:41 a lot 17:34:49 AnMaster: some programs like git install all their possible command-line options as symlinks I think 17:34:55 ah yes 17:35:03 wonder how many non-symlink ones there are 17:35:04 heh, you can install BusyBox and only have one non-symlink command in /usr/bin... 17:35:37 but that's only really worthwhile on embedded systems, and even then they normally need something besides POSIX shell commands 17:35:52 hi ais523 17:35:53 hi AnMaster 17:35:55 BusyBox was invented to create recovery floppy disks for Debian, that's why it has dpkg 17:36:14 tux /usr/bin # find . -type f | wc -l 17:36:14 2975 17:36:16 ...and I think tusho is lagging, even though #freenode say they haven't changed the code recently 17:36:16 and hi tusho 17:36:28 ais523, * Ping reply from tusho: 0.72 second(s) 17:36:40 AnMaster: I have 201 binaries in /usr/bin that mention Ubuntu 17:36:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:36:55 ais523, I have almost 3000 non-symlink ones 17:37:05 and 5885 files there total 17:37:13 sure a few are wrapper scripts, like the autoconf for different autoconf versions 17:37:21 ais523, oh and freenode's ircd suck, including their throttle code, it handles bursts badly 17:37:24 like at connect 17:37:29 2584 non-symlink 17:37:36 wow, that's a lot of symlinks... 17:37:41 yes... 17:38:02 ais523, which is why I'm usually lagged for like one and a half minute while my client autojoin lots of channels 17:38:05 no wait, symlinks are 'l' are they? 17:38:21 I have 2584 f and 358 l 17:38:23 so what are the others? 17:38:29 files with embedded newlines? 17:38:39 ais523, eh? 17:38:48 ais523, maybe directories? 17:39:14 AnMaster: wait, I don't have 5885 total 17:39:14 ais523, at least arch put /usr/bin/perl- for some misc perl binaries like perldoc and such 17:39:19 no? 17:39:20 I only have 2942 total now 17:39:26 ais523, fsck time? 17:39:28 so why did I get a high result earlier? 17:39:34 AnMaster: no, I probably messed up a command 17:39:37 ais523, check what command you typed 17:39:38 and I fscked recently 17:39:39 press up arrow 17:39:41 to see 17:39:45 in your shell 17:39:59 ah, I typed ls -1 * 17:40:00 rather than ls 17:40:03 *ls -1 17:40:06 -1? 17:40:08 one? 17:40:16 AnMaster: ls -1 means don't sort into multiple columns 17:40:24 yes and? 17:40:26 I think it's the default anyway when not outputting to tty 17:40:28 it's the * 17:40:29 what has that got to do with anything? 17:40:36 ls -1 * returns higher than ls -1 17:40:41 because it lses all the subdirs too 17:40:52 ais523, you have subdirs in /usr/bin? 17:40:54 I don't 17:40:57 not on my gentoo 17:40:58 hi ais523 17:40:59 hi ais523 17:40:59 hi ais523 17:41:00 on my arch I got one 17:41:00 hi AnMaster 17:41:01 hi AnMaster 17:41:01 hi AnMaster 17:41:01 no, I don't either 17:41:04 so that isn't it 17:41:21 ais523, unless a symlink is to a directory 17:41:23 I have 2584 regular files, 358 symlinks, and one type 't' 17:41:33 t is? 17:41:34 hmm... what does that mean, a t in the file type field? 17:41:38 I don't know either 17:42:00 ah, it's the first letter of "total 381419" 17:42:09 which I forgot to cut out from the result... 17:42:16 haha 17:42:39 # ls -l /etc 17:42:40 total 2086 17:42:40 but 17:42:47 # ls -l /dev 17:42:47 total 0 17:42:51 what does total mean here? 17:42:58 # ls -l /dev | wc -l 17:42:58 235 17:43:00 AnMaster: total size, probably in KB 17:43:07 # ls -l /etc | wc -l 17:43:08 229 17:43:13 no /dev files have any size because they aren't regular files 17:43:13 ais523, hm 17:43:22 ais523, I guess that's it 17:44:34 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Aug 26 10:58 /dev/XOR -> null 17:44:35 um? 17:44:36 huh 17:44:43 to me that makes no sense 17:45:44 hi aismaster 17:46:18 ais523, no I don't think he is lagged or whatever, just messing with us 17:46:22 what a troll 17:46:31 no not even a troll 17:46:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:46:40 a troll would act much more interesting 17:46:47 damn 17:46:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:47:05 ais523, what did you see last? 17:47:08 your last line was 17:47:12 no /dev files have any size because they aren't regular files 17:47:15 and mine? 17:47:35 ugh, sorry 17:47:37 connection trouble 17:47:41 ais523, hm 17:47:43 and I only said one line after that 17:47:45 /dev files use up no space apart from the inode itself, I think 17:48:19 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/BsFSnT48.html 17:50:00 ais523, ?? 17:50:19 ah, ok 17:50:22 ais523, care to comment on that odd XOR device? 17:50:25 sorry, here, just distracted 17:50:33 and what XOR device? 17:50:40 ais523, ais523, http://rafb.net/p/BsFSnT48.html 17:50:46 I said it in there 17:50:57 ah, seen it now 17:51:05 I don't have it 17:51:12 and if it's just linked to /dev/null, why? 17:52:26 ais523, no clue 17:52:33 that is what I'd like to know 17:52:49 50-udev-default.rules:KERNEL=="null", SYMLINK+="XOR" 17:52:50 well 17:52:55 no explaining comment either 17:54:00 ais523, this is so odd I should probably track down the udev rules maintainer and ask 17:54:16 maybe later 17:54:19 don't have that time 17:54:22 not now 17:57:42 * oerjan wonders if /dev/AND and /dev/OR exist 17:58:09 ais523, for malloc() and free() to work it means the implementation have to internally keep track of how large the block is right? 17:58:20 so why doesn't the C standard add some routine to query that 17:58:38 to me that sounds like it could be useful and the info would already have to be tracked anyway 17:59:05 -!- oklopol has joined. 18:00:41 ais523, what do you think? 18:02:03 -!- Mony has joined. 18:02:13 * AnMaster pokes ais523 18:02:25 hi 18:02:49 hello Mony 18:03:08 AnMaster: hm wait here it's /dev/X0R, not XOR 18:03:31 oerjan, huh? what distro? Gentoo here 18:03:45 oerjan, but it is definitely XOR here 18:03:50 not 0 18:03:55 which looks different 18:04:02 ok, this is getting even weirder 18:04:18 ais523, what is? 18:04:20 AnMaster: DOS has malloc and free as syscalls, and there's no way within the DOS protocol to get at the internal size 18:04:28 AnMaster: /dev/X[O0]R 18:04:31 i don't know it's NVG's server 18:04:31 ais523, ah yes 18:04:37 ais523, well and? 18:04:41 oerjan: uname -a 18:04:44 ais523, it still needs to track it so? 18:05:05 just says GNU/Linux 18:05:08 AnMaster: well, that may be one reason the C standard doesn't specify a way to track, because on some OSs the malloc and free won't tell you 18:05:09 wait you mean they did it for DOS compatibility? 18:05:23 AnMaster: C89 has everything compatibility, it even restricts filenames to 6.1 18:05:31 which is even more ridiculous than 8.3 18:05:34 also /dev/XOR exists on Arch Linux too 18:05:44 ais523, 6.1...? 18:05:46 really? 18:05:51 AnMaster: minimum needed for the C header files 18:05:59 it seems that on some Acorn OS, even that wasn't enough 18:06:01 insane 18:06:10 the C compiler on that system maps stdio.h to h/stdio 18:06:17 that is a directory called h with a file named stdio on it 18:06:22 the standard allows that sort of thing 18:06:31 ridiculous filename restrictions, though 18:06:39 ais523, oh yes that sounds familiar, they do filenames that way 18:06:48 !Befunge is for that OS iirc 18:06:52 and ! means "executable" 18:06:55 ah 18:07:12 so the name makes sense 18:07:13 ais523, !Befunge would iirc be a directory somewhat like the "packages" on OS X I think 18:07:18 I thought it was some sort of C programming joke 18:07:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC_OS is the same iirc 18:07:43 as Acorn OS 18:07:51 at least Acorn made RISC 18:08:46 "Proprietary ADFS filesystem - The OS uses meta-data to determine file type; file extensions are not used. Colons are used to separate the filesystem from the rest of the path; the root is represented by a dollar ($) sign and directories by a period (.). Extensions from foreign filesystems are shown using a forward slash ('example.txt' becomes 'example/txt'). For example, ADFS::HardDisc4.$. is the roo 18:08:47 t of HardDisc4 using the ADFS filesystem. This system gives support for filesystems other than ADFS." 18:08:51 ais523, does that make sense 18:09:18 not really 18:09:20 probably 18:09:22 to someone 18:09:23 but at least it explains it 18:14:50 "but at least it explains it" sounds like a punchline 18:15:14 thus, this must be a joke 18:15:50 no 18:15:55 oerjan, RISC OS is no joke 18:16:00 sadly 18:16:45 it _could_ be, if we are actually in a sitcom or webcomic 18:16:58 (a very nerdy one, so probably the latter) 18:18:38 is it a bad thing to realize you are being http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy in real life? (Warning: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife) 18:20:33 (also, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WrongGenreSavvy) 18:21:25 do you think I should have actually scripted that oh no stuff 18:21:54 :) 18:22:33 -!- jix has joined. 18:23:02 we will never know, as we have already forgotten the context 18:23:18 no I doubt ais523 has forgotten the context 18:23:19 nor AnMaster 18:23:22 although I bet they are ignoring me 18:24:13 just lost the game 18:25:03 ais523: ping 18:25:51 YES THEY HAVE, i have hypnotized them to forget everything i have not been told about 18:26:25 -!- ais523_ has joined. 18:26:54 ais523_: hi 18:27:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:27:04 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 18:27:27 ^echo unignore me kthx -tusho 18:27:28 unignore me kthx -tusho unignore me kthx -tusho 18:27:53 tusho: I never actually had you on ignore 18:27:59 I think I still have tusho_ on ignore though 18:28:01 ais523: anmaster likely does 18:28:04 ok, unignored 18:28:34 tusho, I never had you on ignore either 18:28:35 ^echo why the doubling? 18:28:36 why the doubling? why the doubling? 18:28:37 mental ignore sure 18:28:41 oerjan, it is a echo? 18:28:46 ah 18:28:47 echo doubles stuff 18:28:49 of course 18:28:56 AnMaster: you're the one who went "wtf" the first time 18:28:56 not on Windows it doesn't 18:29:01 now you're acting all "duh" :) 18:29:08 ais523: your os choice does not change the laws of sound 18:29:13 tusho, yes because I thought of it in terms of shell scripts 18:29:20 AnMaster: that's the joke, obviously 18:29:48 tusho: echo says back to you what you said to it on Windows 18:29:49 ais523, hm let me see if I remember... 18:29:51 echo off 18:29:52 unless the argument is on or off 18:29:56 wasn't it something like that 18:29:57 ais523: yes, i know 18:29:58 silly anyway 18:30:00 same in shell 18:30:01 ais523, ? 18:30:07 that is the joke 18:30:08 AnMaster: echo on and echo off control the settings of the sell instead 18:30:12 s/sell/shell/ 18:30:17 ^echo ^echo 18:30:18 ^echo ^echo 18:30:18 ais523, so how did you print the actual string "off"? 18:30:24 AnMaster: with difficulty 18:30:25 oerjan: we'd need two fungot's for that 18:30:26 tusho: then in foo? 18:30:27 hey AnMaster 18:30:30 put fungotty in here 18:30:31 tusho: and the only place where it used to 18:30:36 i just wanted a quine 18:30:39 probably echo "off " would pretty much work on modern Windows, DOS was rubbish at quoting though 18:30:40 tusho, I'm not stupid 18:30:48 AnMaster: yes you are 18:30:49 :D 18:30:58 ais523, ah but they have windows power shell now 18:31:09 AnMaster: that's weird, I haven't used it but I've heard it's object-oriented 18:31:13 and not very like ordinary shellss 18:31:15 tusho, oh and it wouldn't work, since they would run out after a few iterations 18:31:16 s/s$// 18:31:20 one using ^ and the other % 18:31:33 AnMaster: make it use ^, then. 18:31:35 ais523, yes I haven't tried it either 18:31:42 tusho, I don't want them to collide 18:31:48 you could use optbot 18:31:49 AnMaster: #perverted might have gotten too many non-programming-related visitors. 18:31:54 eh 18:31:55 AnMaster: when there's an Underload-bot in a channel it's normally reasonably easy to set up a loop whatever the characters if there's one other bot 18:31:58 huh 18:32:09 tusho, can you find the context of optbot's last comment? 18:32:09 AnMaster: please. 18:32:15 I'm just wondering wtf that was about 18:32:20 AnMaster: probably when people were being perverted in here 18:32:24 and someone told them to go to #perverted 18:32:41 tusho, ah 18:32:43 that exists? 18:32:45 actually, I guess that someone was discussing the name #esoteric 18:32:45 i'll grep, though 18:32:46 and no 18:32:48 I'm not going to check 18:32:50 but channels auto-vivify. 18:32:51 and someone pointed out that it was preferable to #perverted 18:32:58 tusho, yes of course 18:33:04 I know they are created on demand 18:33:11 05.07.22:00:31:04 #perverted might have gotten too many non-programming-related visitors. 18:33:18 ais523, what would be wrong with #esoteric? 18:33:25 00:22:46 --- join: msingh (~msingh@203-59-177-150.dyn.iinet.net.au) joined #esoteric 18:33:25 00:23:00 is this the channel for perverts? 18:33:32 huh 18:33:33 00:25:11 Only if you think esoteric programming languages are perverse. 18:33:33 00:25:59 right 18:33:33 00:26:03 and i think thats reasonable 18:33:34 00:28:28 "marked by a disposition to oppose and contradict", "resistant to guidance or discipline", "marked by immorality; deviating from what is considered right or proper or good"; I guess that does apply. 18:33:34 00:29:49 maybe perverted programming language would have been a better term. plus it has a cool acronym: ppl 18:33:36 00:30:36 hmm no point denying it though, we are talking about perverts 18:33:38 00:31:04 #perverted might have gotten too many non-programming-related visitors. 18:33:41 00:31:18 fizzie: heh, good point. 18:33:42 00:31:37 :) 18:33:49 ^^ contecktz 18:33:53 well, where did the name "esoteric programming languages" COME FROM? 18:34:02 ais523: DO COME FROM .3 18:34:11 ais523, heh 18:34:13 ~'($%2 18:34:20 #### 18:34:24 ais523, what happens if you write it in lower case in intercal? 18:34:26 tusho: don't do that, it would mess with the system library too easily 18:34:30 AnMaster: syntax error nowadays 18:34:35 ais523, before? 18:34:49 ais523: what would it do 18:34:53 there's a compile-time flag in C-INTERCAL that controls case-sensitivity, but as far as I know nobody set it to insensitive 18:35:01 and I think INTERCAL-72 was invented before lowercase was 18:35:25 or at least before it became common 18:35:43 ALGOL-68 had a pragma to tell it to use nonstandard case-based stropping 18:35:44 ais523: what, you mean outside of computers? 18:35:46 that would be cool 18:35:50 everyone would be shouting all the time 18:35:56 in everyday conversation 18:35:57 nonstandard because many computers couldn't manage case distinctions 18:36:42 and ALGOL-68 was only 4 years before INTERCAL-72 18:37:25 tusho: the ancient romans, you could always hear coming 18:37:33 oerjan: oh my! 18:37:36 think of the children... 18:39:06 ... 18:39:10 perhaps #perverted is a better name. 18:40:25 we _do_ get the occasional rare magick enthusiast in here 18:40:40 oerjan: did you miss my joke 18:40:43 or was it too terrible to comment on 18:40:54 and yea, i remember that guy looking for an actual esoteric thing 18:40:55 AAAAAAAAAA 18:40:58 i missed it 18:40:58 i tried to turn him the way of science but no! 18:41:00 :p 18:41:05 and ha 18:41:06 ... 18:41:06 wait 18:41:10 how did oerjan miss a Terrible Pun 18:41:41 i was too preoccupied with my Yoda grammar 18:50:00 hm... why is it that C didn't think of using the $ for anything? 18:50:11 as an operator or whatever 18:53:45 $ is often legal in symbol names, maybe they didn't want to conflict with that. 18:54:00 At least GNU as allows $ on most targets, I think. 18:54:26 Not that standard C variables could have $s, but still. 18:55:41 Alternatively maybe they were COMMUNISTS and didn't want to use the "big money" character. 19:02:24 there's a lot in ASCII that C doesn't use 19:03:21 fizzie: yes, gcc allows $ in variable names without -ansi (or maybe without -pedantic) 19:03:32 asm allows both . and $ in identifiers though 19:03:46 (normally compilers use . in asm identifiers to guarantee they're unique from user-code identifiers) 19:10:32 -!- Corun has joined. 19:11:45 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:21:01 ais523: http://lifehacker.com/5045136/google-chromes-aboutinternets-easter-egg 19:21:09 aww, no screenshot 19:21:25 tusho: does about:mozilla do anything in Chrome 19:21:29 it was special-cased in IE, after all 19:21:30 dunno 19:21:33 to give a blue screen 19:21:37 rather than a 404 19:21:43 and obviously it's special-cased in Firefox 19:22:00 ais523: http://howtogeek.com/ss/2008-09-03_1949.png 19:22:30 about:% has also been doing the rounds recently 19:22:36 it's one of the easiest ways to crash Chrome 19:22:39 and can be linked from a webpage 19:22:47 heh 19:22:48 so link that crashes the browser, straight off 19:22:56 apparently %: crashes it too 19:23:04 tusho: did you just try that? 19:23:08 no 19:23:11 but i heard it 19:23:21 hmm... % is SQL for what sh calls *, isn't it? 19:23:33 no idea if that's relevant 19:23:37 only for LIKE 19:23:39 and no, it's not 19:23:40 kleene percent? 19:23:41 it's just a random character 19:24:43 do other random characters crash it? 19:25:08 %a, %-, %;, %? ? 19:25:20 %a should probably work 19:25:43 or no, it has to be at least two digits evidently 19:25:56 Chrome does a Google search on anything that doesn't look like a URL, I hardly ever use Google so I find the Firefox 3 address bar more useful 19:26:11 why do you hardly ever use google? 19:26:16 do you prefer yahoo? :P 19:26:17 (I know because sometimes I forget to press down before return then it does a Google search) 19:26:33 tusho: web search engines aren't as good as finding what I want then knowing people who know where to find what I want 19:26:35 do you just keep a 365-day history? :-P 19:26:44 Deewiant: my history is infinite 19:26:54 and normally I'm visiting the same websites I've visited earlier, rather than looking for new ones 19:27:03 my history is cleared when the browser closes 19:27:07 also Wikipedia tends to be better for finding an organisation's website then Google does 19:27:23 but yes, I keep infinite history and search through it with the 'awesomebar' normally (stupid name) 19:27:35 awesomebar is an awesome name 19:29:49 Hmm 19:29:56 The RFCs say that a personal site should be at name.me.country 19:30:07 But I've already stated my anti-tying-yourself-to-your-country sentiment, etc. 19:30:11 I wonder what I should use? 19:30:14 I was going to use tusho.org. 19:30:19 But i'm not really an organization. 19:30:23 tusho.name? 19:30:27 (Eww. .name is ugly.) 19:30:37 tusho.info 19:30:38 .me is for some random place but is being marketed for personal websites, etc. 19:30:44 Perhaps I should get tusho.me 19:30:47 Deewiant: er, no 19:30:50 tie yourself to an obviously incorrect country, or preferably an invalid one 19:30:51 that is a complete abuse of the .info domain 19:30:58 so it's equally wrong no matter which domain 19:31:00 ais523: as you can see i'm going for correctness here 19:31:26 .name is the correct one 19:31:47 Deewiant: but... http://tusho.name/ 19:31:48 eurgh 19:31:54 ugly 19:32:08 tusho@tusho.name is even uglier 19:32:19 clearly you want to get rich and shell out for the tusho toplevel domain 19:32:20 just use @tusho.name 19:32:24 ais523: invalid 19:32:26 as we've discussed 19:32:31 which may soon be possible 19:32:35 tusho: valid, you can have no characters before the @ 19:32:40 just most mailers don't understand it 19:32:45 oerjan: it's over 100k. 19:32:48 ais523: no 19:32:49 cool, I didn't know that 19:32:50 we looked it up 19:32:51 remember? 19:32:53 ages ago 19:33:10 Deewiant: you can even have nested comments in email addresses 19:33:19 ais523: fizzie looked it up 19:33:22 you need something before the @ 19:33:28 ais523: yes, that I did know :-) 19:33:45 also, it'd fuck up address validators 19:33:54 address validators already don't understand shit 19:33:57 most address validators are wrong, they can't handle nested comments 19:34:03 not even nested comments 19:34:09 but basic stuff like plus addressing 19:34:26 or short ones like foo@... 19:34:38 well, exactly 19:34:41 i want something i can actually use. 19:34:49 address validators are a piece of shit and should die 19:35:00 Deewiant: so's your face. 19:35:09 no, not really 19:35:09 Deewiant: what about an RFC-based address validator? 19:35:49 the only one I know of is that infamous perl regex and I'm not sure if it's been proven correct 19:35:57 it's not 19:36:01 and you're silly 19:36:02 there are tons 19:36:09 which are correct? 19:36:10 Deewiant: if it isn't recursive, it's wrong 19:36:16 Deewiant: yes 19:36:18 search cpan, foo. 19:36:27 and only very recent versions of Perl can do recursive regexen without helper variables 19:36:40 and I suppose these are deployed and actually in use as well 19:36:45 I mean, sure 19:36:51 given a BNF description 19:36:55 you can write a validator. 19:37:29 but I have yet to see any which even claims to validate according to the whole RFC, let alone does it 19:37:35 doesn't mean there aren't any 19:37:38 that's because you haven't looked hard enough 19:37:39 but it does mean they aren't widespread 19:37:42 no 19:37:44 no it doesn't 19:37:44 I shouldn't HAVE TO 19:37:46 they are on cpan 19:37:50 every perl programmer searches cpan 19:37:55 therefore, amongst perl programmers, they are widespread 19:37:56 I very much doubt that :-D 19:38:07 then you'd be wrong 19:38:07 hmm, maybe Deewiant agrees with me rather than tusho about CPAN 19:38:18 and hoorays, widespread among perl programmers 19:38:25 ais523: yes, i know, any language that doesn't have every library in the core distribution is evil 19:38:32 no, that's not it at all 19:38:34 what about the JSP, PHP, ASP programmers responsible for 80+% of web sites 19:38:50 and e-mail validators that reject "xe@xe.org" 19:38:51 Deewiant: they suck, and your point is 19:38:57 wait 19:39:00 what rejects xe@xe.org 19:39:10 I can't remember 19:39:22 and why 19:39:36 something rejected it because the part before @ was "too short" 19:39:47 or not that, specifically 19:39:51 xe@something I think 19:39:56 something with 2 chars, anyway 19:40:25 tusho: and my point is, whoop-te-do, so good validators exist. They're not used anywhere which makes them practically useless. 19:40:33 doesn't mean they should die 19:40:35 the reverse, in fact. 19:40:43 in most cases it's easier to just send e-mail to the address 19:40:55 if it works, it works 19:40:59 if not, complain to the user 19:41:04 what about validating that it has a @ and a . in it 19:41:06 that seems reasonable to me 19:41:08 why the hell does there need to be a separate validation step 19:41:10 Deewiant: couldn't someone get you blacklisted for spamming like that with repeated join attempts? 19:41:31 ais523: what do you mean? 19:41:42 or I get what you mean, but I can't quite think of a practical case 19:41:45 well, no 19:41:54 but it's the sort of thing it's good to think about when designing webapps 19:42:16 tusho: wrong, . isn't necessary 19:42:28 Deewiant: correct 19:42:37 but i don't WANt people registering @localhost 19:42:53 so blacklist it 19:42:54 classic 19:43:01 or anything else that resolves to a LAN address 19:43:17 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire..."). 19:43:21 Deewiant: or just take the easy route out and check for @ and . 19:43:29 because there will never be an address you want that doesn't have a . in it 19:43:31 tusho: foo@[IPv6 address] 19:43:41 Deewiant: yeah, uh, no. 19:43:46 what do you mean, no. 19:43:48 yes. 19:43:50 tusho: you un-forward-looking person! 19:44:00 even Microsoft Vista has support for IPv6 nowadays 19:44:06 XP does as well 19:44:06 and the world has almost run out of IPv4 addresses 19:44:09 to an extent 19:44:10 I think 19:44:14 Deewiant: really? I thought it was just Vista 19:44:20 I'm fairly sure it does 19:44:28 i want to run out of ipv4 addresses 19:44:28 people are even resorting to horrible things like NAT to get more IPv4 addresses 19:44:30 it'll be fun 19:44:44 wikipedia page mentions "Windows XP SP2 IPv6 stack" 19:45:05 http://www.ipv6.org/impl/windows.html 19:46:33 status: Preview 19:46:44 no idea what that means when translated from Windowsmarketingspeak 19:47:22 probably "beta" 19:49:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:52:03 tusho: how's Chrome on Acid3, by the way? 19:52:28 ais523: not very good 19:52:40 they don't use webkit's drawing as it uses propietary apis on windows 19:52:44 tusho: does it beat Safari? 19:52:44 so they've had to write that bit themselves 19:52:45 so it's unsurprising 19:52:46 ais523: no 19:52:51 safari is 100/100 19:52:54 in recent builds 19:52:56 (well, webkit is) 19:53:00 yes, I meant released Safari 19:53:03 ah 19:53:05 then no, i don't think so 19:53:10 it gets like 47/100 19:53:12 you have a Mac, you should be able to check easily 19:53:32 but i don't wanna open chrome 19:53:49 that involves starting parallels 19:54:14 ais523: safari beats it 19:54:15 by a lot 19:54:18 75/100 19:55:41 i think i'll go with tusho.net 19:55:44 for a domain 19:56:01 .com is obviously wrong and feels it, .org is OK but I might wanna profit from that domain sometime 19:56:04 e.g. sell something i've made 19:56:13 .net is pretty much used as the more-netural com these days 19:56:14 so. 19:56:28 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:57:21 what makes .name so ugly compared to .net, for instance 19:57:36 -!- jix has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:57:39 -!- dbc has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:57:39 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:57:39 -!- ais523 has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:57:39 -!- megatron has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:57:39 -!- Tritonio1 has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:57:40 -!- rodgort has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:58:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:58:01 -!- jix has joined. 19:58:01 -!- megatron has joined. 19:58:01 -!- Tritonio1 has joined. 19:58:01 -!- dbc has joined. 19:58:01 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 19:58:01 -!- rodgort has joined. 19:58:20 hope you netsplit back again soon 19:58:36 Deewiant: it's too long for a tld, really 19:58:45 http://tusho.name/ just really grates with me, aesthetically 19:58:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:58:53 i guess it's ego: .name is getting as much attention as tusho 19:58:57 when tusho is the important part 19:59:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:59:03 tusho.net gives 'tusho' the focus 19:59:45 -!- Tritonio1 has quit ("Leaving."). 19:59:45 tusho: I thought .net was mostly for ISPs and suchlike 19:59:50 I have "gehennom.org" registered even though there's nothing like an organization there. On the other hand, "zem.fi" is equally pointless and was chosen because of the shortness. And neither of those are really "name"-style addresses. 19:59:51 ais523: used to be 19:59:57 but not any more 20:00:05 now it's just "everything" 20:00:11 just as .com was once for commercial things 20:00:12 All of .com/.net/.org seem to be just "everything" now. 20:00:19 .org is not everything 20:00:21 beh, I like TLD segregation 20:00:23 I haven't seen a profiteering .org site 20:00:31 and .com vs. .org is to do with profit-making, I think 20:00:33 ais523: .net is the best genericized one, probably 20:00:39 because .com 'feels' commercial, kind of 20:00:42 and .org feels organizational 20:00:44 but .net just feels generic 20:00:52 so i think if you want a generic tld to use, .net is the way to go 20:01:35 I did think about getting "zzie.fi" because of the nickname, but maybe not. 20:01:49 fizzie: you could get fizz.ie 20:01:56 no you couldn't 20:01:58 it's taken 20:02:09 "Surprisingly" the name "zzie" was not taken. 20:02:13 a friend has http://hideou.se/ though, that's where the counter is 20:02:20 (his online moniker is Hideous) 20:02:32 -!- Judofyr has quit (Connection reset by peer). 20:03:12 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:09:56 -!- Hiato has joined. 20:12:24 -!- Tritonio_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:13:36 -!- Tritonio_ has joined. 20:23:12 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:31:06 hm I wonder 20:31:11 about what? 20:31:13 what about post post modern 20:31:17 should happen sooner or later 20:31:34 arguably it already has, but everyone just calls it stupid and ignores it 20:34:32 ais523, oh? 20:34:34 examples? 20:34:44 oh, anything so random and stupid it doesn't even seem to count as art 20:43:27 postmodernism is bullshit 20:43:27 :P 20:43:37 postpostmodernism is not postbullshit, though 20:48:01 -!- tusho has quit ("And then-"). 20:48:18 -!- tusho has joined. 20:52:37 d 20:53:39 did something happen to g? 20:54:06 a 20:56:01 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:57:46 that's some serious time dilation you've got there. look out for black holes. 20:58:22 f 21:06:06 -!- oklofok has joined. 21:06:06 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:11:24 hmm 21:11:26 so 21:11:30 who votes i should get tusho.net 21:18:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:19:10 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:19:22 -!- oklopol has joined. 21:30:54 -!- oklofok has joined. 21:30:54 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:45:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | not caring about what the string contains. 21:46:15 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 21:46:22 , 21:46:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("and here i thought it was dedicated to its job"). 21:46:42 hah 21:48:04 ,,, 21:48:12 ok,,,hehehehhehehe...... 21:57:47 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:02:37 -!- LinuS has joined. 22:07:38 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 22:09:56 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:17:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 22:18:01 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. Sì, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 22:27:16 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:35:32 LMAO 22:35:33 an internet stalker 22:35:34 brilliant 22:41:14 -!- LinuS has joined. 22:43:24 -!- Judofyr has quit. 22:48:35 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:58:27 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 23:04:00 -!- LinuS has quit (Connection timed out).