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08:32:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as soon as you wake up, please check your mail
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09:45:45 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | When (if) I get my Ph.D, I'll change my nickname to DrGregor :P.
10:09:14 <AnMaster> GregorR, was it you who said that thing in topic now?
10:21:08 <Deewiant> 1) that's your problem. if all other interpreters as well as the latest standard say that you should do X and you still want to do Y, that's fine, but now that instruction is useless.
10:21:28 <Deewiant> 2) the BAD comes from what's at the bottom of the file: F is off by one.
10:21:54 <Deewiant> 3) echo "10xyzhhTesting, testing." | cfunge mycouser.b98
10:22:16 <Deewiant> or wait, that last may be incorrect
10:22:33 <Deewiant> 3) echo "10xyz19-hhTesting, testing." | cfunge mycouser.b98
10:23:50 <Deewiant> as for updating Mycology, what do you want me to do? Almost every time I tested a new interpreter I ran into a bug in Mycology. It would have taken me until christmas to update the comparison if I had started now and released iteratively.
10:24:06 <Deewiant> in any case I think that you definitely should say "mycology 2008-xx-yy" conforming
10:24:29 <Deewiant> because that is of course the case, you don't know what's up in the latest versions and the older versions are probably incorrect in some way.
10:25:23 <Deewiant> and cfunge is under "Interpreters tested", you must have missed it
10:36:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it doesn't say if it is 0 or 1 based in the specs for TIME
10:37:23 <AnMaster> and as you know I'm against changing a fingerprint unless it is very new
10:37:28 <AnMaster> that is why I accepted the FING change
10:38:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so indv basically stors the vector vertically now instead of horizontally?
10:38:53 <Deewiant> it's just that when W pushes it pushes x then y, and when V pops it pops y then x
10:39:03 <Deewiant> which meant that the vector was flipped
10:39:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so is the F in TIME 1 or 0 indexed?
10:39:37 <Deewiant> the docs say "Day since First of year"
10:39:42 <Deewiant> which is of course 0 for the first day of the yeas
10:41:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, STRN does indeed not use the buffer the rest of the interpreter use
10:42:22 <Deewiant> I would say it most certainly is not undefined
10:42:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then where is it defined?
10:42:41 <Deewiant> if you use fgets() followed by fgetc() would you expect that they read from different places?
10:46:59 <fizzie> "Common sense", isn't that like a swearword around here?
10:51:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, STRN and TIME are fixed. In INDV I argue it is an UNDEF
10:52:00 <AnMaster> while I agree the other order would be more logical, this is still an undef
10:52:04 <Deewiant> argue all you want, it's a one-line change and doing it wrong is just belligerency
10:52:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you know that once a RFC is published it is never changed?
10:52:28 <AnMaster> that is the same reasons fingerprints should never be changed
10:53:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you suggest RFCs should be updated randomly?
10:53:08 <Deewiant> you know that 10000 other things are just as UNDEF? the only reason that one was made separate is because I wasn't 100% sure whether it was intentional or not
10:53:36 <Deewiant> the fact that the original Mycology called it an UNDEF was a BUG
10:53:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, both RFCs and fingerprint specs are immutable once published
10:54:06 <Deewiant> that's an UNDEF if ever I've seen one :-P
10:54:39 <AnMaster> because once you change stuff, retconn them, stuff are going to get messy
10:54:40 <Deewiant> since we don't have versioning I think it makes very much sense to correct obvious mistakes
10:55:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since we don't have versioning I think it makes sense to have immutable fingerprints, possible with a separate errata
10:56:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and I found a new befunge98 for you to test on GreaseMonkey's website
10:56:06 <AnMaster> http://greasemonkey.nonlogic.org/befunge98-r002.zip
10:56:16 <AnMaster> I very much suspect it is early early alpha
10:56:33 <Deewiant> so if there's a mistake which implies that the whole fingerprint is useless (like FNGR) you suggest it should remain like that forever, taking up one slice of the fingerprint space for no good at all?
10:57:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, I agree there are downsides to that, but the other ones are worse
10:58:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but if you agree it is an UNDEF then I'm happy to change it
10:58:59 <AnMaster> Fight for the rights of the UNDEF!
10:59:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I maintain that since practically all Funge programmers are taking part in this very discussion, changing fingerprints is fine as long as they're notified
10:59:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well then I suggest notifying at least a week before you update mycology
11:00:11 <Deewiant> like said, in this case that would have meant that the update you wanted so much would have taken months.
11:00:38 <Deewiant> I wanted to do it and so I did. If you want to make a quick release fixing the bugs and you care about it so much I can have cfunge-0.3.3 there pretty quickly.
11:01:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, doesn't W suffer the same problem as V in INDV then?
11:01:53 <AnMaster> FungeSpaceSet(b.x, VectorCreateRef(a.x+1, a.y));
11:02:13 <Deewiant> the relevant part is where you pop stuff from the stack
11:02:44 <Deewiant> in any case the INDV tests need to be somewhat rewritten for the new storage offset stuff
11:03:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the "bugs" are fixed in current cfunge bzr head, but I make at most one release / week, not "another day another release", there are limits to the "release early, release often"
11:03:52 <AnMaster> maybe "another hour, another release" next?
11:05:23 <AnMaster> that freshmeat have a policy against that, and I make release announcements, same about sf.net, iirc they got some policy too
11:06:42 <Deewiant> sucks to have to work with others doesn't it :-P
11:07:50 <Deewiant> well that's part of the reason I prefer to host everything myself
11:07:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I concentrate development on efunge currently, though I have some plans for cfunge too
11:08:18 <AnMaster> but for both I currently have limited time
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11:09:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why are you using -W for cfunge?
11:10:10 <AnMaster> reporting unknown instructions *is* against the specs really
11:10:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, another issue, with that last rcfunge, the reported "vanity" output, can't it be disabled?
11:11:21 <AnMaster> http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-output/fp-file/rcfunge-mark-2.txt <-- a binary file?
11:14:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, other odd thing, the rcfunge output for PERL is correct in the one it crash on TURT but incorrect in the case where TURT support is not compiled?
11:15:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also it doesn't say environment variables have to be in order anywhere, so why is that mentioned at the end of http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-output/y/rcfunge-mark-2.txt
11:18:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-output/input/rcfunge-mark-2.txt is a 404
11:28:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if efunge becomes a befunge98 interpreter, will you test it? since it will need special knowledge really
11:28:59 <AnMaster> with that I mean weird build system (emakefile, not makefile)
11:32:06 <Deewiant> man, if only Windows had soft links
11:33:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and windows does, *.lnk thougj
11:33:35 <AnMaster> (and no, not really, just poking fun at windows)
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11:34:15 <AnMaster> Please input a character: UNDEF: got -116 'Œ' which is hopefully correct. <-- that in rcfunge looks like memory corruption to me
11:34:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I think it clears the input buffer and then reads out of uninitialized memory, just a guess though
11:35:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does any test in mycology depend on a finite cell size?
11:35:33 <AnMaster> since efunge doesn't have that, it use bignums all the way through
11:36:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and I do know my STRN got an issue which you didn't detect. STRN's I mess up on UTF8 for some unknown reason, it cuts off after the first non-ascii char
11:36:43 <Deewiant> fixed the Rc/Funge consistency stuff
11:37:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I can't detect everything.
11:37:15 <AnMaster> but I think the issue is with getline() rather than STRN...
11:37:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 2008-09-14 13:14:33 ( AnMaster) Deewiant, other odd thing, the rcfunge output for PERL is correct in the one it crash on TURT but incorrect in the case where TURT support is not compiled?
11:37:50 <Deewiant> the files I generated stuff from said "rcfunge-mark-2:" instead of "rcfunge:\nrcfunge-mark-2:"
11:38:17 <Deewiant> this is why it takes so long to update: so much has to be done by hand and it's fairly error prone :-/
11:38:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err why does REFC say N/A for cfunge?
11:39:38 <Deewiant> NA has to be written by hand of course
11:39:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a good way to check how much mycology actually tests would be coverage analysis
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11:40:04 <AnMaster> in efunge the various mycology programs test all the b93 parts except two lines
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11:40:20 <AnMaster> which are swap on stack with one item, and dup on stack with one item
11:40:36 <Deewiant> as for binary files: can't be helped that they contain binary in the output, that's what the interpreter outputs
11:40:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what mime type do you send them as?
11:41:04 <Deewiant> I have no clue and I can't do anything about it, not my server
11:42:13 <Deewiant> or hmm, can that be done in .htaccess?
11:43:22 <Deewiant> maybe I can do something about it after all
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11:51:13 <Deewiant> maybe firefox still wants to "save as" regardless
11:53:18 <AnMaster> yay for new build system, using two types of make
11:53:25 <AnMaster> $(ERL) -noshell -eval "make:all(), init:stop()."
11:53:25 <AnMaster> rm -rf *.beam *~ erl_crash.dump
11:53:42 <AnMaster> {'*',[warn_obsolete_guard,warn_untyped_record,warn_unused_import,warn_missing_spec]}.
11:54:18 <Deewiant> and that's not portable to windows because of "rm" :-)
11:54:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I could put that in a variable
11:55:02 <Deewiant> and then the user would have to edit the makefile to get it to build
11:55:17 <AnMaster> you could set the environment variables
11:56:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't think the makefile will work out of box on windows anyway
11:56:47 <Deewiant> in any case you have to mess with stuff
11:56:53 <Deewiant> I'm not saying you should have to change it
11:56:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, agreed, but that can't be avoided
11:57:08 <Deewiant> this is just part of my motivation for Coadjute
11:57:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it means I would need to install haskell wouldn't it?
11:57:35 <AnMaster> ERL_COMPILER_OPTIONS='[inline,native,{hipe,[o3]}]' make clean all
11:57:46 <AnMaster> and that really helps for life.b93
11:58:08 <AnMaster> yes I know that will look cryptic to a non-erlang programmer
11:58:15 <AnMaster> it is a list of atoms and tuples
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12:04:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, efunge won't have an option to print warnings for unknown instructions btw
12:04:59 <AnMaster> not sure why you would want that anyway
12:06:00 <Deewiant> it's like stats: might as well make them as verbose as possible (without obscuring the befunge output)
12:06:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, compile time option then
12:06:34 <Deewiant> I don't care whether you include it or not
12:06:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is any interpreter on the mycology page using bignums+
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12:23:36 <AnMaster> blergh needs to track edges now
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13:33:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Efunge98 is progressing nicely
13:33:44 <AnMaster> will take a few weeks due to time constrains currently
13:50:12 <AnMaster> []abcdef; of 98 are implemented so far
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14:06:38 <AnMaster> in efunge: BAD: 0k^ executes ^ at ^
14:13:53 <Ilari> Isn't 0k^ supposed to execute ^ 0 times (that is, skip it).
14:14:11 <AnMaster> while 1 and such would not step over
14:14:18 <AnMaster> so in effect 1 iteration would execute it twice
14:15:05 <AnMaster> (btw if you wonder, this is not for cfunge, but another funge interpreter in another language)
14:15:55 <tusho> AnMaster: we can and do read previous messages
14:16:01 <tusho> you have mentioned efunge like 5 times. we are not blind.
14:16:05 <tusho> you don't have to point it out.
14:16:54 <AnMaster> tusho, but I assume you will prefer efunge over cfunge?
14:17:08 <tusho> AnMaster: i'll prefer ccbi or rc/funge, probably.
14:17:18 <AnMaster> tusho, but that wasn't the question
14:17:26 <AnMaster> anyway cfunge is more conforming that rc/funge
14:17:39 <tusho> I have not looked at efunge.
14:17:42 <AnMaster> http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-comparison.html <-- yes cfunge get a few bad, all fixed today
14:17:59 <AnMaster> tusho, efunge is not fully 98 yet, the version that is uploaded is 93 onlty
14:18:25 <AnMaster> but I think this code is very nice:
14:18:27 <AnMaster> iterate(0, _Instr, IP, Stack, _Space) ->
14:18:27 <AnMaster> iterate(Count, Instr, IP, Stack, Space) ->
14:18:27 <AnMaster> {IP2, Stack2} = processInstruction(Instr, IP, Stack, Space),
14:18:27 <AnMaster> iterate(Count-1, Instr, IP2, Stack2, Space).
14:18:41 <tusho> For things I would use, my ranking goes for non-vaporware stuff: RC/Funge, CCBI1, [huge gaping chasm], cfunge.
14:18:44 <tusho> I do not know where efunge is there.
14:18:55 <tusho> RC/Funge is above CCBI1 because it'll be more useful for socket apps etc
14:18:56 <AnMaster> tusho, efunge is indeed not finished yet
14:18:58 <tusho> based on fizzie's experience
14:19:11 <tusho> Ideal situation, my ranking would be CCBI2, RC/Funge, CCBI1, [huge gaping chasm], cfunge.
14:19:45 <AnMaster> rc/funge is *less* conforming than ccbi: http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-comparison.html
14:20:03 <AnMaster> tusho, can't see why you hate cfunge
14:20:15 <AnMaster> if you want unreadable source code you go for rc/funge
14:20:18 <tusho> AnMaster: I don't give a flying fuck about conforming, RC/Funge is the most useful for real apps due to its array of fingerprints.
14:20:41 <AnMaster> tusho, cfunge implements most of the fingerprints that ccbi1 does: http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-comparison.html
14:20:55 <tusho> And RC/Funge still comes out on top.
14:21:12 <AnMaster> tusho, with a lot of useless and badly defined fingerprints
14:21:23 <tusho> And a lot of useful and well-defined ones, too.
14:21:33 <tusho> fungot runs on Rc/Funge and does it very well too.
14:21:37 <AnMaster> which ccbi and/or cfunge implements
14:22:00 <tusho> AnMaster: but cfunge is a retarded piece of crap, and you already know that that's my opinion
14:22:08 <tusho> and you have known that is my opinion for months
14:22:09 <AnMaster> tusho, I don't see *why* you think so
14:22:17 <tusho> AnMaster: then you haven't been listening very well
14:22:23 <tusho> also, just peeked at the rc/funge code, perfectly readable
14:22:33 <AnMaster> tusho, it is fast, I fixed my funge-space hash to have good performance
14:22:49 <AnMaster> tusho, not when I last looked, which was last week I looked at some fingerprint code
14:23:02 <tusho> Presumably because you aren't very good at reading C.
14:23:10 <tusho> It's regular, sane code.
14:23:45 <AnMaster> tusho, I am, but I prefer well structured code with one indention style, K&R coding style or some slight variant of that
14:24:00 <tusho> It is well structured.
14:24:13 <AnMaster> tusho, but you still haven't said why you hate cfunge
14:24:20 <AnMaster> since the hash library have been fixed
14:24:26 <tusho> Yes, I have, over the course of many months, in great detail.
14:24:37 <AnMaster> tusho, "because I didn't fix hash library" yes
14:24:39 <tusho> I am not condensing all of those lines into one because it would be far too much of a lossy conversion.
14:24:42 <oklobol> tusho has already explained everything, there
14:24:43 <tusho> AnMaster: Where the fuck did you get that idea?
14:24:46 <oklobol> 's no use asking him anything
14:24:55 <tusho> I have mentioned the hash library like ONCE
14:24:56 <oklobol> (this goes for everything.)
14:24:58 <AnMaster> since you complained about that
14:25:27 <tusho> no, i didn't, you're hallucinating
14:25:41 <tusho> i know what i've said, thanks
14:25:54 <AnMaster> tusho, so you hate that I'm POSIX only too? well so is rc/funge
14:26:10 <tusho> No, I don't, now if you actually want to know what I said, grep tusho and cfunge in the logs.
14:26:14 <tusho> now i'm quite busy
14:36:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/DdE9wq23.html <-- hm, I'm not sure, and yes j isn't yet implemented, but that is an interesting way to fail
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14:47:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I still get that error with all GOOD before
14:47:45 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/FLYm0g77.html
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14:47:50 <AnMaster> any clue what could be happening?
15:19:37 <AnMaster> ah it was broken flying wrapping
15:19:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, idea: report broken non-cardinal wrapping better
15:21:44 <tusho> broken non-cardinal wrapping
15:21:52 <tusho> it sounds like something out of star trek
15:27:05 <AnMaster> thought it actually means that funge-space wrapping is broken when ip doesn't move as in Befunge-93
15:30:38 <AnMaster> tusho, Now wrapping (at warp 9) in efunge works with a non-cardinal delta index in the warp core plasma.
15:30:52 <tusho> AnMaster: eject into HYPERSPACE!!
15:31:17 <AnMaster> hey hyperspace is star wars not star trek!
15:31:45 <Slereah> Hyperspace is in any and all works of hacks to explain FTL
15:32:24 <AnMaster> Slereah, Star Trek got wrap instead
15:32:35 <tusho> AnMaster: it is a SECRET facet of the TIME CUIBE
15:32:42 <tusho> warp is the EDUCATED LIE they tell you
15:32:46 <tusho> to hide TRUE HYPERSPACE
15:33:25 <AnMaster> allow travel between planets without changing crew all the time
15:33:32 <Slereah> It's just "Let's give the work to another universe"
15:33:46 <Slereah> That's the outsourcing of labor.
15:34:17 <AnMaster> Slereah, wrap in Star Trek works by <technobable>Using negative energy to compress the space-time itself, thus shortening the path you have to travel, in effect the ship travels at sub-FTL speeds</techobable>
15:34:45 <Slereah> Thank god the trekkie heard about the Alqubier propulsion to justify it!
15:34:58 <Slereah> Of course, it doesn't actually work, but it sounds moar scientific
15:35:21 <AnMaster> and if it worked it would still need a LOT more energy than can ever be contained in a ship
15:35:34 <Slereah> The Alqubierre propulsion is silly
15:35:46 <Slereah> It's based on making up a metric for space time.
15:36:00 <Slereah> Without any regard for the stress energy tensor
15:36:17 <AnMaster> just happen to have watched a lot of TNG and Voyager
15:36:50 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive
15:37:07 <tusho> NATURE'S 4 DAYS OF HARMONIOUS TIME CUBE ROTATION
15:37:28 <Slereah> -1 * -1 = 1 IS STUPID AND EVIL
15:37:33 <AnMaster> tusho, oh that sounds familiar..... not *THAT* crap surely
15:37:49 <tusho> AnMaster: ACADEMIC IS _EVIL_
15:37:54 <tusho> YOU HAVE BEEN EDUCATED *STUPID*
15:38:07 <AnMaster> oh my, I seen that crap website before once
15:38:31 <tusho> AnMaster: educators altere dyour mind, YOU CANNOT THINK opposite of what you were taught to think.
15:38:36 <Slereah> AnMaster : Search for "Time cube"
15:38:40 <AnMaster> it was just a lot of shouting, didn't even manage to get the point what it wanted to say across
15:39:05 <tusho> AnMaster: When the Sun shines upon Earth, 2 - major Time points are created on opposite sides of Earth - known as Midday and Midnight. Where the 2 major Time forces join, synergy creates 2 new minor Time points we recognize as Sunup and Sundown.
15:39:05 <tusho> The 4-equidistant Time points can be considered as Time Square imprinted upon the circle of Earth. In a single rotation of the Earth sphere, each Time corner point rotates through the other 3-corner Time points, thus creating 16 corners, 96 hours and 4-simultaneous 24 hour Days within a single rotation of Earth - equated to a Higher Order of Life Time Cube.
15:39:08 <AnMaster> Slereah, yes and it never explained in a clear way what it meant by "time cube" iirc
15:39:24 <tusho> AnMaster: YOU HAVE A CYCLOP PERSPECTIVE AND TAUGHT ANDROID MENTALITY - LOBOTOMIZED ANALYTICAL ABILITY
15:39:31 <Slereah> Don't ask insane people to explain themselves.
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15:40:31 <AnMaster> "thus creating 16 corners, 96 hours and 4-simultaneous 24 hour Days within a single rotation of Earth" <-- now that makes no sense
15:40:39 <tusho> AnMaster: YOU ARE EVIL
15:40:42 <AnMaster> but that bit makes even less sense
15:40:42 <tusho> AND EDUCATED STUPID
15:40:52 <tusho> omfg timecube.com is down
15:40:59 <tusho> GENE RAY WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO YOU??????
15:41:30 <tusho> AnMaster: YOU HAVE KILLED THE WISEST HUMAN, YOU EVIL ACADEMIC
15:42:36 <AnMaster> you are free to go on with that silly spam, but please don't highlight me
15:42:50 <tusho> AnMaster: -1 * -1= +1 is WRONG, it is academic stupidity and is evil. The educated stupid should acknowledge the natural antipodes of +1 * +1 = +1 and -1 * -1 = -1 exist as plus and minus values of opposite creation - depicted by opposite sexes and opposite hemispheres.
15:43:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: idea: if non-cardinal wrapping doesn't work you can end up absolutely anywhere, there's nothing I can do about it
15:44:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but you could handle some common cases easily
15:44:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, applying b93 wrapping at f98 edge size
15:45:07 <AnMaster> err I mean: if X > MaxX -> X = MinX
15:45:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | not as far as I know, but CLC-INTERCAL still supports Baudot and punched cards, and maintaining compatibility as far back as possible is a running INTERCAL in-joke.
15:45:50 <AnMaster> and same for if X < MinX -> X = MaxX
15:45:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you see what I mean
15:46:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: so where does it end up in that case
15:46:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the basic algorithm I use for cardinal wrapping is: http://rafb.net/p/ZakhhS22.html
15:47:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, bouncing between u and o like this: http://rafb.net/p/FLYm0g77.html
15:47:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: what would help is the next cell it hits, space included
15:48:04 <AnMaster> Slereah, Befunge way of saying, "moving north/south/west/east" and not diagonally
15:53:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/kOS6BT80.html
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16:00:27 <AnMaster> I forgot about them when planning the design
16:00:37 <AnMaster> probably because I don't use them a lot myself when coding funge
16:06:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: uploaded a Mycology which should catch that case now
16:07:59 <AnMaster> "Fixed: test for k with a negative count was expecting pre–2008–07–26 k behaviour." <-- what exactly would that mean?
16:08:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, k with negative reflect is what I implement iirc, and it is an UNDEF
16:08:45 <AnMaster> so how would it expect pre–2008–07–26?
16:09:06 <Deewiant> for instance in that when it says "pops more than the absolute value of the count" it would be off by one
16:09:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: can/will you test that noncardinal wrapping again?
16:10:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you forgot one case: pushes "You are an UNDEF jerk, and be happy this isn't DeathStation 9000" on stack and reflects
16:10:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure in a bit, want to get the current change I'm working on done first
16:10:51 <Slereah> Don't you remember the LOVEMACHINE 9000?
16:10:51 <tusho> AnMaster: his langs end with 9000
16:10:54 <tusho> Love Machine 9000, etc
16:10:54 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeathStation_9000
16:11:38 <Slereah> How would you go about to parse a bunch of parenthesis in Scheme?
16:11:52 <Slereah> I'm trying to make a lang based on mu functions.
16:12:26 <Slereah> With 0, suc, projection, mu, and two functions : recursion and composition.
16:12:34 <Slereah> That way, everything can be written in one line
16:22:13 <Slereah> I could just use the syntax of Scheme
16:22:19 <Slereah> But it feels a little like cheating
17:17:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, your mycology update works
17:17:54 <AnMaster> BAD: wraparound with non-cardinal delta doesn't work
17:17:54 <AnMaster> Instruction { is not implemented (at x=63 y=70).
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17:46:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Hm does { copy elements, or move them?
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17:48:03 <Deewiant> "transfers n elements from the SOSS to the TOSS"...
17:48:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "It copies these elements as a block, so order is preserved."
17:49:02 <Deewiant> '"Transfer" is used here in the sense of "move," not "copy": the original cells are removed.'
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17:52:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I swear lists:reverse/2 in stdlib of erlang was made for Stack Stacks as I implement them...
17:52:41 <AnMaster> > lists:reverse([1, 2, 3, 4], [a, b, c]).
17:52:57 <AnMaster> it reverses the first list and appends to second list to the end of the first one
17:53:37 <tusho> I'd expect lists:reverse([1,2,3,4],[a,b,c]) to return two values
17:53:42 <tusho> [4,3,2,1] and [c,b,a]
17:53:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um the ++ is rather ineffective in Erlang
17:53:54 <AnMaster> since lists are cons cells like in lisp
17:54:02 <tusho> AnMaster: same in haskell
17:54:04 <tusho> but ++ is efficient
17:54:09 <AnMaster> so accessing head is the effective way
17:54:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: you think that that function doesn't do an append internally?
17:54:19 <AnMaster> the lists:reverse/2 is implemented internally yes
17:54:24 <tusho> Deewiant: he is thinking it'd be two traversions
17:54:27 <tusho> as in a non-lazy language
17:54:36 <tusho> but in haskell it's just one traverse like the erlang
17:54:47 <Deewiant> ah right, in a strict language it would be two traversals
17:55:12 <Deewiant> reverse x ++ y would traverse x twice in a strict language
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17:55:20 <AnMaster> I assume it does some strange magic internally in the runtime system
17:55:42 <tusho> AnMaster: he meant that lists:reverse will traverse it
17:55:46 <tusho> but you thought it'd traverse twice
17:55:50 <tusho> in Deewiant's version
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18:26:04 <Slereah2> "Artificial Bee Colony Algorithm (ABC) is an optimization algorithm based on the intelligent foraging behaviour of honey bee swarm, proposed by Karaboga in 2005 "
18:27:45 <AnMaster> Slereah2, I'd love to hear what it is about
18:27:57 <Slereah2> http://mainegov-images.informe.org/agriculture/pi/images/bee.jpg
18:28:04 <Slereah2> I mean, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_Bee_Colony_Algorithm
18:32:40 <AnMaster> Slereah2, Seems rather far-fetched
18:33:21 <Slereah2> Let's make a language out of it.
18:33:38 <AnMaster> you finished your scheme variant?
18:35:53 <oklobol> how is the bee algo different from local beam search ?
18:36:06 <AnMaster> can't see how that ends up as school
18:36:25 <AnMaster> related to erlang compiled .beam file?
18:36:43 <oklobol> local beam search is a long story
18:36:52 <AnMaster> obviously searching for a compiled module, ignoring any nfs mounts!
18:41:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I hate stackstack since it really mess up the whole code
18:43:18 <Deewiant> consider writing it differently so it doesn't mess it all up :-P
18:44:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, having a CONS list as a stack would be sane, right?
18:44:40 <AnMaster> now erlang is single-assignment
18:44:53 <AnMaster> which means if I change stack I need to put it back into the stack stack list
18:45:04 <tusho> my submission is #1 on programming.reddit
18:45:14 <tusho> ... and #7 on reddit proper
18:45:22 <AnMaster> tusho, and that submission is?
18:45:27 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/71e5c/sketchpad_an_advanced_painting_program_from_1963/
18:48:30 <AnMaster> tusho, interesting, but horrible sound
18:48:38 <tusho> s a video from the 1980s.
18:48:42 <tusho> What the heck did you expect?
18:48:50 <tusho> A video from the 1980s showing footage from the 1960s.
18:49:00 <AnMaster> tusho, better, since professional movies back then had better sound
18:49:07 <tusho> AnMaster: It's just someone speaking, jeez.
18:52:30 <AnMaster> tusho, cool and I think some of those features may not be found in modern systems really
18:52:35 <AnMaster> at least not systems I work on
18:52:36 <tusho> nope, unfortunately not
18:52:44 <tusho> it looks totally neato, i'd love to try it out
18:52:52 <tusho> i wonder what the constraint programming language looked like
18:52:55 <tusho> AnMaster: well, it was a 2d system
18:52:57 <AnMaster> tusho, I got no clue what sort of emulator you would need
18:52:59 <tusho> looks vector-based
18:53:10 <AnMaster> well yes I'd say it was vector based too
18:53:11 <tusho> AnMaster: probably doesn't exist. I'll just get my time machine
18:54:20 <AnMaster> definitely not based on pixels I'd say
18:54:36 <tusho> AnMaster: well duh
18:54:40 <tusho> there weren't any pixel-based screens then
18:54:52 <AnMaster> I was just being Captain Obvious
18:54:53 <tusho> dunno what that output is, though
18:55:05 <tusho> the way the lines wave a bit seem to suggest so
18:55:29 <AnMaster> "Sketchpad was the first program ever to utilize a complete graphical user interface, using an x-y point plotter display"
18:55:33 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sketchpad
19:00:52 <tusho> Well, I sure got lucky. :p
19:02:01 <AnMaster> tusho, and tomorrow it is gone again...
19:02:50 <tusho> no, I just wanted to share it :)
19:02:54 <tusho> Holy shiet, #1 on programming.reddit
19:03:04 <tusho> Still #4 on reddit.com.
19:03:11 <AnMaster> tusho, yet you are about how high it ends up?
19:03:17 <tusho> AnMaster: no, i'm just surprised
19:03:19 <AnMaster> <tusho> my submission is #1 on programming.reddit
19:03:26 <tusho> Yes, I was surprised.
19:03:33 <tusho> Well, I forgot. :P
19:03:39 <tusho> Anyway, I'm just amused.
19:03:50 <tusho> As I don't think I've had anything on the front page before.
19:04:03 <tusho> (If I were a karma whore, then the reason would be karma, but I don't care. It's just a number in my profile.)
19:18:14 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vector_Video_Standards2.svg <-- do anyone else think the name QSXGA is silly?
19:19:35 <tusho> AnMaster: IDKWYATAITIAAVRN
19:24:23 <tusho> AnMaster: I Don't Know What You Are Talking About I Think It's A (?) Very Reasonable Name
19:25:15 <AnMaster> according to that chart, my current screen is SXGA+, and my old was SXGA
19:25:58 <tusho> iMac 20" screen, matte, very nice lighting
19:26:08 <tusho> AnMaster: i did too but os x lends itself very well for widescreen usage
19:26:29 <AnMaster> well, my current screen is 21" and matte
19:26:51 <tusho> AnMaster: yea, mac displays generally have higher dpi than most others
19:27:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how large would UGA be?
19:27:18 <tusho> AnMaster: it's on the chart...
19:28:12 <AnMaster> also I have seen other formats
19:28:55 <AnMaster> I remember seeing some greyscale-only screen with a insanely high resolution, extremely expensive, target at hospitals and such
19:29:14 <AnMaster> it was a standing format, that is taller than it was wide
19:31:58 <AnMaster> yay I solved the stack stack issue I think
19:32:03 <tusho> #3 on reddit, yikes.
19:32:10 <tusho> I only submitted it an hour ago.
19:35:25 <AnMaster> in fact I will need no code changes except changing -import(fstack, [push/2, peek/1, pop/1, popVec/1, dup/1, swap/1]). to -import(fstackstack, [push/2, peek/1, pop/1, popVec/1, dup/1, swap/1]).
19:38:38 <AnMaster> basically then end up as wrappers like:
19:38:39 <AnMaster> push([TOSS|T] = StackStack, V) ->
19:38:39 <AnMaster> NewTOSS = fstack:push(TOSS, V),
19:42:02 <tusho> "I'd like to see some evidence this isn't fake..
19:42:03 <tusho> Anyone have citations for this?
19:42:03 <tusho> That computer seemed too high rez and the touch screen tech seemed too advanced for 67."
19:42:14 <tusho> bet he thinks it's a pixel based screen
19:42:21 <tusho> wow, apparently sketchpad was written in simula
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19:55:56 <AnMaster> is there any modern compiler for that language?
19:57:09 <tusho> Simula 67 introduced objects, classes, subclasses, virtual methods, coroutines, discrete event simulation, and features garbage collection.
19:57:15 <tusho> Major implementations GNU Cim
19:57:19 <tusho> http://www.gnu.org/software/cim/cim.html
19:57:31 <tusho> OutText ("Hello World!");
19:57:47 <tusho> the syntax is quite sane, very readable
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20:16:56 <tusho> AnMaster: duh, it fluctuates
20:17:02 <AnMaster> and number 1 is way way higher
20:17:16 <tusho> AnMaster: it isn't based solely on score.
20:17:31 <tusho> see, e.g. the 1000+ point submission below me
20:17:53 <tusho> it's based on a combination of score, hotness, controversialness, and a bunch of other factors that reddit won't reveal to us because it's their business model
20:18:50 <AnMaster> who decides "controversialness"
20:19:03 <AnMaster> and is that a good or bad thing
20:19:21 <tusho> AnMaster: if an item has 500 upvotes and 500 downvotes, it'd be 100% controversial
20:19:40 <AnMaster> tusho, and does that count as a + or a -?
20:19:59 <tusho> AnMaster: + i think, but obviously if you have 300 upvotes and 310 downvotes the - comign from that will probably cancel it out
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20:37:59 <AnMaster> BAD: { transfers cells incorrectly
20:37:59 <AnMaster> 10 0 0 Stopping due to fear of corrupt stack stack
20:38:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what does that mean?
20:38:28 <AnMaster> would be useful saying stuff like:
20:46:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, IMO the current error is unusuable
20:56:25 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/2058.html
20:59:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah found the issue, I pushed offset before I popped for transfer
20:59:40 <AnMaster> now code locks up after "GOOD: } transfers cells correctly"
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21:12:40 <tusho> "This is totally Sketchpaded. I can tell by the vectors and having played a lot of Tempest in my time."
21:13:09 <Figs> I just saw that on reddit
21:13:12 <tusho> i'm the one who ordered you to come in here :P
21:13:23 <tusho> AnMaster: a regular in 2007ish
21:13:30 <Figs> I am Figs! (*muahahahha*)
21:13:35 <AnMaster> <tusho> "This is totally Sketchpaded. I can tell by the vectors and having played a lot of Tempest in my time." <-- don't make sense
21:13:38 <tusho> AnMaster: yes it does
21:13:51 <tusho> it's a play on the meme "This is photoshopped, I can tell by the pixels and having seen a few shops in my time"
21:14:09 <Figs> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOZqRJzE8xg <-- sketchpad
21:14:39 <AnMaster> Figs, so what esolangs do you use?
21:14:45 <tusho> Figs: i submitted that link
21:14:48 <tusho> so everyone here has seen it :P
21:15:03 <AnMaster> yes he told us like 15 times already
21:15:11 <tusho> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(arcade_game)
21:15:23 <Figs> Actually, I didn't notice that you'd submitted it
21:15:41 <tusho> Figs: mwahahaha! i am internet famous! or something
21:16:45 <Figs> AnMaster: I've played around with BF a bit, and a few other things that aren't coming to mind, but mostly I come here to bother people about language design/implementation and for random insanity/fun :)
21:17:00 <Figs> I also used to enjoy obfuscating C++
21:17:20 <Figs> (Which I've been told, on a couple occasions, is redundant...)
21:18:02 <tusho> AnMaster here's specialty is copypasting code from CCBI and then microoptimizing parts that don't need to be to make his funge-98 interpreter cfunge.
21:18:17 <AnMaster> [{esoteric, [Befunge, Brainfuck]}, {nonesoteric, [C, Erlang, Bash]}
21:18:22 <AnMaster> [{esoteric, [Befunge, Brainfuck]}, {nonesoteric, [C, Erlang, Bash]}]
21:18:56 <tusho> no, I'm not lying, and i don't hate you
21:19:01 <tusho> i think you're annoying, sure
21:19:07 <tusho> but i don't hate you
21:19:16 <tusho> whatever you say...
21:19:28 <AnMaster> tusho, I did base a few fingerprints on CCBI ones where the spec was unclear
21:19:51 <AnMaster> but nothing in the core is based on it, or is based on discussions with CCBI author or similiar
21:20:04 <AnMaster> and most fingerprints aren't based on it
21:20:08 <Figs> What's CCBI? :P
21:20:15 <tusho> Figs: concurrent conforming befunge interpreter
21:20:45 <AnMaster> (a befunge-98 interpreter coded in Erlang)
21:20:56 <tusho> efunge is exactly like cfunge except it's written in erlang and he can't use _posix_fadvise or _posix_fuzzy_logic_core_seed.
21:21:12 <Figs> AnMaster: http://rafb.net/p/by2Tg875.html
21:21:19 <AnMaster> tusho, and you are still lying
21:21:25 <Figs> example of some of the kinds of crap I used to make... :P
21:21:26 <tusho> AnMaster: no: you disagree with me
21:21:31 <AnMaster> I use no posix_* in file reading any more
21:21:36 <AnMaster> so it is a lie to say I use them
21:21:45 <tusho> AnMaster: it still exemplifies the general style.
21:21:57 <tusho> AnMaster: he wasn't replying to you.
21:22:02 <AnMaster> though it is certainly obfuscated
21:22:06 <tusho> he was showing some obfuscated c++ that he made a while back
21:22:06 <Figs> I said C++, not C
21:22:16 <tusho> that he mentioned when saying his esolangs
21:22:31 <tusho> AnMaster: you don't have to be able to read it to see the obfuscation
21:22:32 <AnMaster> tusho, "<Figs> AnMaster: http://rafb.net/p/by2Tg875.html" "<tusho> AnMaster: he wasn't replying to you." <-- really?
21:22:37 <AnMaster> seems like a *highlight* to me
21:22:38 <tusho> AnMaster: addressing you != replying to you
21:22:52 <AnMaster> tusho, "<AnMaster> though it is certainly obfuscated" "<tusho> AnMaster: you don't have to be able to read it to see the obfuscation"
21:23:15 <tusho> AnMaster: i'm saying that "well I can't read C++" was a silly statement as I doubt anyone but figs can read that
21:23:29 <Figs> Oh, you were trying to explain the languages you know with your [{( messages... :P
21:23:34 <Figs> I didn't catch that
21:23:41 <Figs> I thought you were arguing with tusho
21:23:49 <tusho> Figs: we're always arguing, generally
21:24:05 <tusho> Figs: he's just showing off that he knows erlang.
21:24:28 <oklopol> tusho is always arguing with someone
21:24:36 <tusho> oklopol: shut up, you're wrong
21:24:36 <oklopol> we're not as clever as him
21:24:47 <AnMaster> Figs, actually you need to quote them as they start in uppercase
21:24:49 <AnMaster> 3> [{esoteric, ['Befunge', 'Brainfuck']}, {nonesoteric, ['C', 'Erlang', 'Bash']}].
21:24:49 <AnMaster> [{esoteric,['Befunge','Brainfuck']},
21:24:49 <AnMaster> {nonesoteric,['C','Erlang','Bash']}]
21:24:49 <oklopol> he ends up correcting us all the time
21:24:50 <Figs> Did you ever play my song, oklopol?
21:25:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, except he is wrong a lot of the time
21:25:14 <oklopol> Figs: no :) but i'm getting my piano back soon, perhaps i could retry
21:25:25 <tusho> AnMaster: you're wrong a lot of the time too
21:25:45 <oklopol> currently i just have my synth, and i'm too lazy to upload any good sounds on it
21:25:49 <Figs> I'm always wrong, except when I'm not.
21:25:57 <oklopol> so it just has square, which is a bit chaotic with polyphonic music
21:27:00 <oklopol> where tusho is wrong, it's irrelevant whether he was right or not
21:27:13 <tusho> <oklopol> where tusho is wrong, it's irrelevant whether he was right or not
21:27:45 <oklopol> btw, just got the art of computer programming trilogy from amazon
21:28:11 <tusho> but it costs like £100
21:28:13 <oklopol> i just browsed through the pages and drooled
21:28:22 <oklopol> so, the books are really unusable now
21:28:26 <fizzie> I've got a box of those too; a friend ordered two and sold me the other one.
21:28:51 <oklopol> i also bought a haskell programming book, but it was of noobial quality
21:29:21 <Figs> One of these days, I'm going to have to force myself to actually learn Haskell :P
21:30:17 <Figs> Although, I've been learning x86 assembly lately...
21:34:04 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/71e5c/sketchpad_an_advanced_painting_program_from_1963/c05ffid i bring so many people together <3
21:34:09 <tusho> oklopol: which book did you get?
21:34:17 <tusho> real world haskell also owns
21:34:51 <tusho> oklopol: Yet Another Haskell Tutorial
21:35:01 <oklopol> this one is "programming in haskell"
21:35:16 <Figs> I now have the weirdest craving for bbq sauce on pizza :|
21:35:30 <tusho> ima ask #haskell what they think of that book oklopol :P
21:35:31 <Figs> Unfortunately, I have neither...
21:36:01 <oklopol> i'll read it anyway, since i bought it, though, of course
21:36:21 <tusho> hmm, apparently dcoutts reccomends it, dcoutts is pretty cool
21:36:29 <tusho> maybe you just think it's noobish :-P
21:36:58 <tusho> oklopol: <newsham> graham hutton? i like the book, but its a little thin.
21:37:04 <oklopol> i just took a quick glance
21:37:27 <tusho> <newsham> RWH [ed: real world haskell] is broader, with more emphasis on practical stuff
21:37:44 <oklopol> and i don't care for practicality, of course
21:37:51 <oklopol> as if i'd ever *use* it ;;)
21:37:53 <tusho> oklopol: yea, i just told them that :D
21:38:03 -!- Figs has changed nick to Figs|AfkPhoneCal.
21:38:06 <tusho> if you could destroy every practical computer in the world I bet you would
21:38:12 <tusho> <newsham> tusho: i like the book, i was particularly happy that he covered some equational reasoning/proof stuff in it
21:38:25 <oerjan> he really wants a book called "How to write completely unreadable Haskell"
21:38:27 <oklopol> if no one had computers, i'd gladly live without one
21:39:13 <tusho> oerjan: s/unreadable/oko/
21:39:20 <tusho> get your terms right
21:39:22 <tusho> there is a difference
21:39:38 <oerjan> that might nearly be possible
21:40:03 <oerjan> oko o = o (okoko o) okokoko
21:40:25 <tusho> that's not very okoy
21:40:29 <tusho> okoy that would be
21:40:47 <tusho> oko=\o->flip o okokoko$okoko o
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21:45:39 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://www.codu.org/plof/dplof-x86-gnuWlinux-2006-12-19-2.
21:48:50 <AnMaster> BAD: 101-{} doesn't leave stack top as 0 and next as 1
21:48:55 <AnMaster> care to say what it does instead?
21:48:59 <AnMaster> BAD: fedcba0{05-} doesn't leave 15 on stack
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21:54:08 <AnMaster> v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4 :r: 4v4
21:57:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I suspect misaligned code at:
21:58:22 <AnMaster> the v above that 4 seems to point to wrong place
22:05:20 -!- Figs|AfkPhoneCal has changed nick to Figs.
22:05:41 <Figs> HelloooooooooooO! I have returned!
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22:26:11 <Figs> I just killed windows explorer
22:26:52 <tusho> Figs: run it again
22:26:57 <tusho> there's a "run task" in the task manager
22:27:03 <Figs> Yeah, I know :P
22:31:44 <Figs> careful now, lest you get addicted.
22:32:14 <tusho> i just find it amusing
22:32:35 <oerjan> addicted to being #1 on reddit seems hard
22:33:06 <oerjan> could easily get ugly, if there was more than one addict
22:33:48 <oerjan> maybe that's why so many places on the internet are ugly
22:34:59 <Figs> Like this one: http://www.ugliestwebsite.com/ ?
22:35:09 <oerjan> (or so i've heard, i don't tend to stay at such places)
22:35:54 <oerjan> no not that kind of ugly
22:36:12 <oerjan> with the exception of those that are addicted to getting on that website :D
22:49:20 <tusho> it wasn't in simula
22:49:21 <tusho> it predated simula
22:49:23 <tusho> [[ Sketchpad’s implementation of class and instance-based inheritance (though not called objects) predated Simula by several years.]]
22:49:29 <tusho> sketchpad had the first OOP system.
22:50:08 <tusho> so it invented... non-procedural programming, vector graphics programs, pen-operated touch screens, OOP, what else
22:54:27 -!- Figs has changed nick to Figs|AFK.
22:59:26 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ").
23:33:12 <pikhq> I seem to recall that someone here was retargeting GCC to Brainfuck...
23:37:00 * pikhq wonders how far he's gotten with that
23:40:37 <oerjan> With Great Power comes Great Insanity
23:41:13 <oerjan> darn, there _was_ a tvtrope by that exact name
23:41:37 * oerjan blames his subconscious
23:42:42 <tusho> pikhq: He basically has everything done apart from actually generating the BF code.
23:42:55 <tusho> He has an intermediate language called ABI (for maximum nameclash) that can be assembled into BF pretty trivially.
23:43:07 <tusho> He just has to fix up the last bits of that then write the converter (apparently very trivial)
23:44:00 <oklopol> i wouldn't say scetchpad invented oop
23:44:26 <tusho> oklopol: why not? It's from 1963.
23:44:33 <oklopol> well i just saw the youtube clip
23:44:52 <oklopol> i wouldn't say it invented oop, because it... didn't
23:45:11 <tusho> oklopol: duh not in its UI
23:45:13 <tusho> but it was coded with oop
23:45:18 <tusho> except it wasn't called that, ofc
23:45:24 <tusho> since it was the first to do it
23:45:32 <oklopol> well as i said, i only know what i saw in the clip
23:46:00 <oklopol> i thought it was a bit far-fetched to call the ui a language :)
23:46:26 <tusho> oklopol: the language to specify constraints (e.g. to make the lines parallel and such) was a full language
23:46:27 <oerjan> maybe it was a sign language
23:47:00 <pikhq> tusho: That's fairly impressive.
23:47:17 <tusho> sketchpad or gcc-bf
23:50:52 -!- Figs|AFK has quit ("...hold the mayo, Mr. Mayor!").
23:57:22 <oerjan> is this genuine maya mayo?