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05:34:52 <GregorR> I wrote a lambda calculus solver in JavaScript :P
05:35:51 <GregorR> Err, "solver" = terribly irrelevant term X-D
05:36:04 <GregorR> It's a lambda calculus interpreter.
05:39:12 <oerjan> like http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/ ?
05:42:44 <pikhq> Wow. Someone *doesn't* like Gregor Richard's 7th Opus. How dare he?
05:42:51 <pikhq> GregorR, come to Missouri and hunt him down.
05:43:14 <GregorR> Someone /does/ like it? X-P
05:43:27 <pikhq> I'm quite fond of your opuses.
05:43:38 <GregorR> oerjan: Although alligator eggs = awesome, this is a bit more ... quick n' simple :P
05:44:10 <GregorR> pikhq: Feel like elaborating?
05:45:08 <oklopol> i haven't heard GregorR's opi
05:45:22 <GregorR> oklopol: http://codu.org/music.php
05:45:37 <oklopol> mind you i'm only saying that so i can use the faulty plural.
05:45:51 <oklopol> but i shall do listen yes today.
05:45:52 <GregorR> But it's such an amusing faulty plural :P
05:46:50 <pikhq> GregorR: They're decent piano pieces.
05:47:17 <oerjan> oklopol: the plural is "opera"
05:47:20 <pikhq> As far as someone not liking them? Guy in my suite *dared* put on something else. How dare he?
05:50:03 <oerjan> wait a minute, you already knew?
05:50:09 <oklopol> but that's substantially less faulty.
05:51:07 <oerjan> i didn't see that line about faulty plurals
05:52:45 <oklopol> i'm not sure whether i would've remembered opera actively
05:52:49 <oerjan> of course it _could_ have been opi
05:54:10 <oerjan> for all i know there's such a homonym in latin
05:54:31 <oerjan> -us, -i is 2. declension
05:54:59 <oerjan> -us, -era is 3. declension
05:55:06 <oklopol> i was just going by nucleus and cactus, and knew opus didn't support that
05:55:43 <oerjan> and the 3rd one might have other options too, it's complicated
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06:08:04 <fizzie> There's no bzr at work, I think both Mercurial and Subversion need support from the server (Subversion at least uses that DAV module), CVS doesn't really do HTTP and I don't really know Monotone, so I think the choice was between darcs and Git.
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06:39:28 <psygnisfive> seriously. i want to talk to you more but i cant since you're only on irc and my school makes it hard to use irc
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07:38:51 <fizzie> Hah, I added them 'j' jump tables, here's fungot's token-to-text part: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/tokenizer.png
07:43:14 <fizzie> @ is the "end program" command, I just added @s to all the "outgoing" code paths from that piece of code.
07:43:27 <fizzie> Also: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/interp.png -- the brainfuck interpreter; it looks even nicer.
07:43:46 <fizzie> Execution starts from that node where there's a "->" from nowhere.
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07:47:39 <oklopol> like, how many weeks elapsed since beginning of current year
07:50:27 <fizzie> For 1-based indexing and mondays as first days, although that latter part doesn't really change much in this case.
07:51:49 <oklopol> how can that be googled? :)
07:52:51 <fizzie> First hit of "current week number" seems to have 38 in it, at least.
07:52:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, everyone should use Monday as first day
07:53:09 <AnMaster> Sunday as first doesn't make sense
07:53:25 <fizzie> On a suitable operating system, "ncal -w" will also tell you the week number.
07:53:52 <fizzie> And "date +%V" more portably.
07:54:30 <fizzie> ncal is not everywhere; it's not on this SuSE box, but it is on the Ubuntu box over there, in the "bsdmainutils" package.
07:55:08 <oklopol> AnMaster: why does sunday as first day not make sense?
07:55:44 <AnMaster> well, whenever you like it or not (I don't) the week is based on religion, basically the bible.
07:56:17 <AnMaster> and there it says (iirc) that on the seventh day the god rested, since sunday is a non-work day it is clear that should be the seventh day
07:56:18 <oklopol> i have zero idea how that's relevant
07:56:43 <AnMaster> Saturday being a non-workday is a far newer invention really
07:56:55 <AnMaster> just look back 100 years (or less)
07:57:08 <oklopol> so, the week at a random point in time where christianity was born, was monday-based?
07:57:22 <oklopol> and thus others make no sense?
07:57:42 <AnMaster> of course other make *sense*, but not on the Western culture
07:58:47 <oklopol> hmm, i'm not sure i follow you, but i guess that doesn't matter.
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08:03:18 <fizzie> Heh, http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png makes my poor little program look really rather complicated.
08:03:19 <fungot> fizzie: or by " basic" :)
08:04:35 <oklopol> that's the whole fungot source?
08:04:36 <fungot> oklopol: it is very hard
08:05:45 <fizzie> That's it. Although there might be bugs in the graph-drawing that make it miss things.
08:06:09 <oklopol> isn't it a widely used superprogram
08:06:32 <oklopol> by graph-drawing you mean your graphifying the source?
08:06:47 <fizzie> Yes. Graphviz will probably work correctly.
08:08:11 <oklopol> does graphviz do something genetic-like, there are small anomalies you could never get with a static approach
08:08:28 <oklopol> bottom left, just above the small cluster of nodes
08:08:41 <oklopol> what the fuck is that weird corner the one edge does :P
08:09:11 <fizzie> I think that might be a rounding-thing when it's calculating the edge-splines or whatever it uses for drawing those.
08:09:46 <fizzie> There are other layout algorithms Graphviz has -- I could try the 'fdp' one at least. And I could definitely try a more recent graphviz, this one is ancient.
08:10:19 <oklopol> it wants the vertical lines to be separated with equal distances
08:10:36 <oklopol> and yeah it's round because of the rounding
08:11:00 <oklopol> but still, it goes to the left beyond necessary too for no apparent reason
08:11:08 <fizzie> I mean, a numerical round-off thing when calculating how to curve that mostly-horizontal part of the line.
08:11:34 <fizzie> Don't know anything how Graphviz actually draws that stuff.
08:12:31 <oklopol> the anomaly is the horizontal line is too long
08:12:58 <oklopol> wonder if i'm confusing vertical and horizontal
08:13:20 <fizzie> Horizontal is ---, since that's what the horizon does.
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08:14:38 <fizzie> That picture was drawn with a Graphviz from May 2006; I think I'll try the one from Feb 2008 we have on the Ubuntu boxen.
08:15:46 <fizzie> http://users.tkk.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png
08:15:46 <fungot> fizzie: because i forgot to check whether other parents have this slot or not?
08:16:14 <fizzie> There's still a slight bump in the lower-left corner, but it's smaller now.
08:17:57 <fizzie> Heh, there's the "throw 1d16" part a bit higher up, it's very recognizable from shape.
08:20:51 <fizzie> The whole graphing thing might not really be very helpful in understanding the program, but at least the pictures are pretty.
08:21:05 <fizzie> I could keep a printed-out copy of that thing on the wall.
08:23:54 <fizzie> At 300 dpi, the unscaled version would be about 72 cm wide and 139 cm tall, a reasonable size for a poster.
08:24:39 <fizzie> Hah, fungotfdpsmall.png at that users.tkk.fi address is the fdp-layout version. It's... less good.
08:24:40 <fungot> fizzie: a list of strings? what kind of package system does netbsd have?
08:25:05 <fizzie> fungot: If I recall correctly, netbsd has that BSDy "ports tree" thing. I don't see how a list of strings is relevant here.
08:25:05 <fungot> fizzie: good. then my method gives the right definition.
08:28:40 <fizzie> I think I'll try neato with "graph [overlap=false,splines=true]" and hope that poor computer can even process the whole graph then.
08:30:39 <fizzie> Hey, someone has updated these computers. Even this workstation now has three gigs of memory and a quad-core Q6600 cpu.
08:38:05 <fizzie> Well, it's a core2, so I assume x86-64, but the userland and kernel there seem to be 32-bit.
08:38:38 <fizzie> Probably the local IT people haven't bothered to craft a different image for the 64-bit-able boxen.
08:38:43 <AnMaster> Q6600 huh, what kind of name is that for an Intel CPU
08:38:55 <fizzie> That's what they're named nowadays.
08:39:09 <AnMaster> what is it supposed to mean even?
08:40:04 <fizzie> The Ennnn models are dual-core, and Qnnnn ones are quad-core; and Xnnnn is dual-core "extreme", while QXnnnn is quad-core "extreme". I don't remember what was so extreme about the "extreme" models.
08:44:14 <fizzie> In this one table I'm not seeing any other difference between Q6700 and QX6700 except that the "extreme" model has an unlocked clock multiplier for the overclocking crowd, and few hundred dollars more price. Both have 2*4M of L2 cache.
08:44:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, wow you could run DOS in just the cache
08:44:59 <AnMaster> probably not possible, but still...
08:45:07 <fizzie> Heh, neato has been running for about 20 minutes now, with no sign of stopping.
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09:18:58 <fizzie> Hey! The neato run finished, took only 50 minutes. Probably it has created a: horrible mess.
09:19:20 <fizzie> Uh... it created a zero-byte file.
09:19:25 <fizzie> That was not what I wanted.
09:22:00 <Deewiant> fizzie: your TKK homepage still links and redirects to befunge.org
09:23:11 <fizzie> Fixed it to point at zem.fi, even though there's really no content there either.
09:33:28 <fizzie> Heheh, the neato layout (with "overlap=ortho,splines=true") is very... organic: http://users.tkk.fi/htkallas/fungotneatosmall.png
09:33:28 <fungot> fizzie: het2: and those can only be understood after 20 years it's fnord
09:34:01 <fizzie> fungot: I don't think I'll be able to understand that graph after 20 years of fnording either, whatever that means.
09:38:20 <fizzie> I guess plain old "dot" is probably the best idea for code-graphs.
09:39:26 <Deewiant> I've yet to see a graph which doesn't look better in dot than anything else
09:40:10 <fizzie> I've seen some small graphs that worked a lot better with neato than with dot.
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09:41:11 <fizzie> Incidentally, is there some sensible image viewer for looking at these ~10kx10k pixel images without using much memory?
09:42:37 <fizzie> The dot graph is readable even as a "small" 4264x8182 image, but that's still a bit large for this workstation with only 512 megs of memory.
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09:43:42 <fizzie> I think running xli remotely won't help much either, as it creates a XImage which probably will eat up memory here locally at the X server.
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09:45:40 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | SevenInchBread i think oerjan or someone told you that a few days ago.
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10:16:46 <fizzie> Also a graphviz tweakery program would help. Something that would run dot first, then provide a GUI for dragging nodes around, and finally would ask Graphviz to reroute edges. Currently the initialization part sticks out of the graph like a sore thumb.
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10:39:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I hit another weird issue with erlang: non-printable chars to STDOUT are always output as escaped
10:39:30 <AnMaster> haven't found a solution for it yet
10:46:16 <AnMaster> this seems to be a issue with the stdout itself in erlang, not a problem with io:format
10:57:37 <fizzie> Heh, that's curious: it doesn't happen here with the Erlang version installed on these boxen.
10:58:07 <fizzie> Eshell V5.5.2 (abort with ^G)
10:58:07 <fizzie> 1> io:format("~c~n", [254]).
11:05:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, also what about LC_ALL?
11:06:42 <AnMaster> and iso-whatever-it-is not utf8
11:07:34 <AnMaster> even with: LANG=sv_SE.UTF-8 LC_ALL=sv_SE.UTF-8
11:08:31 <fizzie> It was the default LC_ALL=en_US.ISO8859-15 they have there, so [254] is printable. Still, io:format("~c~n", [7]). also produced a bell character, based on the terminal flash.
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11:09:30 <AnMaster> echo $ERL_AFLAGS $ERL_ZFLAGS $ERL_FLAGS
11:10:25 <fizzie> Don't have any of those variables et.
11:10:50 <AnMaster> I guess they changed it then since 5.5.2
11:11:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, which leads to another question. what OTP release is 5.5.2?
11:11:47 <AnMaster> the 5.x.x is just the erlang runtime system (erts) version
11:18:10 <Deewiant> my "Erlang OTP R11B" is "Erlang (BEAM) emulator version 5.5.5"
11:18:42 <AnMaster> well possibly R10B then, that is rather old
11:18:54 <AnMaster> oh and efunge have only been tested with R12B
11:19:00 <AnMaster> it may or may not work on older
11:20:09 <fizzie> I think 5.5.2 is R11B too, since /usr/local/lib/erlan/bin/start.script says "OTP APN 181 01","R11B".
11:20:40 <AnMaster> well maybe a difference patch release of R11B then. like R11B-2 or R11B-5 then
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11:32:21 <AnMaster> 1> MyPort = erlang:open_port({fd, 0, 1}, [out, binary]).
11:32:34 <AnMaster> 2> MyPort ! {self(), {command, <<$a,7,10>>}}.
11:32:35 <AnMaster> {<0.30.0>,{command,<<97,7,10>>}}
11:32:54 <AnMaster> and probably behaviour you can't depend on
11:37:56 <AnMaster> hah it works with -noshell, thus when running it freestanding
11:38:07 <AnMaster> using io:put_chars and io:format
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13:10:57 <tusho> ais523: http://www.pixelbeat.org/programming/gcc/static_assert.html
13:11:06 <tusho> you like gcc crazy things
13:11:29 <ais523> tusho: static asserts in all C compilers is a solved problem
13:11:44 <ais523> you define an array which has size -1 if the statement is false and size 1 if the statement is true
13:11:55 <tusho> that is a neat way of doing it
13:12:15 <ais523> tusho: Autoconf uses that method in order to determine size of types when cross-compiling
13:12:33 <ais523> it uses binary search on the type size with static asserts to see if the program compiles
13:14:00 <ais523> works quite effectively, actually, for gcc-bf that would be considerably faster than just measuring the 'correct way'
13:14:06 <ais523> because gcc-bf compiles fast and links slowly
13:15:15 <ais523> tusho: I've never seen that done with enums before, probably arrays is better
13:15:20 <tusho> ais523: is the gcc-bf on c.e.o up to date
13:15:22 <ais523> because a C compiler needn't error on 1/0
13:15:30 <tusho> ais523: update it :p
13:15:43 <ais523> tusho: I need to sort out just what's part of it and what isn't first
13:15:52 <ais523> the problem is that things have got so jumbled now
13:16:07 <ais523> I'm not sure whether to add the gcc and newlib sources as an official part of the project yet
13:16:19 <ais523> both need to be patched for it, one of the patches is I think for a genuine bug in gcc
13:17:17 <ais523> just one that doesn't affect most modern processors, it's machine-specific, and it's possible it doesn't affect any of the architectures gcc currently targets
13:17:39 <ais523> I also found the equivalent of assert(FALSE) because the gcc people couldn't be bothered to implement a certain case that never comes up on more standard architectures
13:17:48 <ais523> actually, three of them would use it except that they all special-cased it
13:18:00 <tusho> gcc is such a mess
13:18:19 <tusho> still cannot wait for clang...
13:18:23 <ais523> it seems like someone with a similar attitude to AnMaster has gone over the code
13:18:32 <ais523> and noted all the places where it's doing something incomprehensible
13:18:38 <ais523> but isn't sure how to fix it
13:18:44 <AnMaster> I don't have any assert(false);
13:18:50 <ais523> AnMaster: no, that was someone else
13:18:52 <AnMaster> I certainly have assert() to help catching bugs
13:18:53 <ais523> more than one person worked on gcc
13:18:57 <tusho> ais523: Do they take things absolutely literally like AnMaster? :)
13:19:04 <ais523> but some of comments there reminded me of you
13:19:38 <tusho> see, AnMaster's coding style is mostly fine apart from the micro-optimization for something like gcc or ruby or python or any actual 'real' thing
13:19:44 <ais523> AnMaster: let me try to find one
13:19:51 <tusho> but for esoteric programming language interps the way he critiques all our code because it doesn't live up to those standards is annoying
13:19:53 <tusho> that's the problem i have
13:20:26 <AnMaster> and yes I do impose certain minimal coding standards on myself
13:20:50 <tusho> AnMaster: sure, that's fine, not arguing with that
13:20:57 <tusho> but i don't like how you impose them on us :p
13:21:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Ello..
13:21:38 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | But if it can hosts the Andrei Machine 9000, I'll give it a look..
13:21:42 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | :-).
13:21:45 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | so that book covers hieratics, too?.
13:21:47 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | soon.
13:21:50 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | You can cross-compile.
13:21:50 <ais523> /* ??? Should be able to merge these two by examining BLOCK_REG_PADDING. */
13:21:52 <tusho> vant interesting topikk
13:21:55 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | even then, one can do all the others.
13:22:02 <ais523> an example of the sort of comment I was thinking of
13:22:09 <ais523> ??? is gcc's equivalent of TODO, by the way
13:22:17 <ais523> AnMaster: similar English style, too
13:22:24 <AnMaster> well I use TODO/FIXME an such if that is what you mean
13:22:32 <AnMaster> since my editor makes them stand out in red
13:22:33 <tusho> no, he means the style of english
13:22:49 <AnMaster> I don't see anything special about the English style?
13:23:08 <tusho> not from that comment
13:23:11 <tusho> but perhaps he has seen others
13:23:16 <ais523> also, that sort of sentence fragment is something I see you do from time-to-time, but most other people don't
13:23:37 <tusho> /* ??? Should be able to merge these two by examining BLOCK_REG_PADDING. */
13:23:37 <tusho> i would write this as
13:23:39 <AnMaster> ais523, sorry, not sure what "sentence fragment" is.
13:24:00 <ais523> AnMaster: something that looks a bit like a sentence but isn't grammatically correct, in this case because there is a verb in it but no subject
13:24:01 <tusho> /* these two could probably be merged with BLOCK_REG_PADDING */
13:24:16 <ais523> tusho: yes, that looks more idiomatic
13:24:56 <tusho> here is the document by which i derive my c style: http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/pikestyle
13:25:04 <tusho> it is very reasonable to me
13:25:14 * ais523 wonders how similar it is to theirs
13:25:15 <tusho> apart from the last section
13:25:17 <tusho> i agree with it in principle
13:25:19 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean like "BASE - I/O for numbers in other bases"
13:25:22 <tusho> but on today's systems...
13:25:24 <tusho> doesn't really work
13:25:48 <ais523> AnMaster: that's also a sentence fragment, although that's one of the contexts in which a fragment makes sense
13:26:00 <ais523> fragment's aren't wrong, as such, on their own (although they are wrong inside larger paragraphs)
13:26:10 <tusho> ais523: *fragments
13:26:14 <ais523> and in lists and so on they're pretty common
13:26:16 <AnMaster> ais523, well comments in C code tend to be on their own a lot of the time
13:26:18 <ais523> and thanks, it was a typo
13:26:20 <tusho> OH SHIT! HERE COMES AN 'S'!
13:26:29 <ais523> my fingers knew that line needed an apostrophe
13:26:39 <ais523> so they guessed before an s, which is a decent place to put one, generally speaking
13:26:43 <tusho> i don't think of the sentence in advance
13:26:46 <tusho> so I never have that kind of problem
13:26:55 <tusho> heck, I probably couldn't think of "fragment's aren't wrong, as such, on their own (although they are wrong inside larger paragraphs)" in my head
13:27:05 <tusho> I write down my sentences as I think of them, just a little ahead of my typing
13:27:07 <ais523> then when the aren't came up they realised that was where the apostrophe went and put another one in
13:27:09 <AnMaster> ais523, your fingers guess? They can think of their own?
13:27:11 <tusho> so that I can amend them to work while writing them
13:27:23 <tusho> AnMaster: no, his brain guessed.
13:27:26 <ais523> AnMaster: to some extent, that's how everyone gets good at typing, I thought
13:27:32 <ais523> it's my brain controlling the fingers, really
13:27:36 <AnMaster> tusho, of course I know.... I was trying to build up a joke
13:27:45 <ais523> but it's the part responsible for typing rather than the part responsible for thinking up sentences
13:27:46 <tusho> AnMaster: good, i'm sure it was terrible :-)
13:28:00 <tusho> You forgot the big wet troat
13:28:06 <tusho> Big wet trout or it didn't happen
13:28:16 * AnMaster slaps tusho with a super-large, super-smelly, decaying digitally-enhanced reinforced IRC-grade trout
13:28:36 <AnMaster> Slereah2, I normally avoid torut
13:29:45 <ais523> tusho: one thing lots of people don't realise is that commenting every line with what it does is actually helpful while learning asm
13:29:59 <ais523> although preferably comments explaining what the program does, on lines of their own, help too
13:30:00 <tusho> ais523: that is a c style guide
13:30:11 <tusho> and, er, i write my c code for people who know c
13:30:18 <ais523> asm is so much easier to read when every line has been translated into English and you don't know the notation, though
13:31:20 <ais523> tusho: the section at the end is unaware of how modern preprocessors work
13:31:26 <tusho> ais523: look at the date
13:31:35 <tusho> February 21, 1989 "
13:31:42 <ais523> ok, he can be forgiven for that
13:31:54 <ais523> but modern people can be forgiven for not following it
13:32:03 <tusho> i said i don't agree with the last section
13:33:35 <AnMaster> what is the "Algol68 report"?
13:33:43 <ais523> AnMaster: standard for Algol-68
13:33:46 <AnMaster> since it is mentioned in that link tusho gave
13:33:52 <ais523> and all the programming examples in it were beautifully formatted
13:34:01 <tusho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL_68
13:34:18 <ais523> quite possibly the people preparing the standard had a pretty-printer
13:34:32 <ais523> although I'm also willing to believe that someone there was crazy enough to format them all perfectly by hand
13:34:52 <ais523> (ALGOL-68 isn't whitespace-sensitive, so the programs could have been written all one one line if desired...)
13:34:54 <tusho> this is the beef I have with just about every "beautiful coding" style:
13:34:55 <tusho> Sometimes they care too much: pretty printers mechanically produce pretty output that accentuates irrelevant detail in the program, which is as sensible as putting all the prepositions in English text in bold font.
13:35:20 <ais523> tusho: or carefully indent each column in source code which actually reads from left to right?
13:35:22 <AnMaster> that link tusho gave seems to suggest syntax highlighting is bad?
13:35:36 <tusho> AnMaster: no, just irrelevant syntax highlighting
13:35:38 <ais523> AnMaster: syntax highlighting and pretty-printing are different
13:35:43 <tusho> also plz2be looking up the definition of pretty-printer
13:35:45 <ais523> syntax higlighting makes files easier to edit by catching typos
13:35:46 <tusho> indent(1) is a prettyprinter
13:35:56 <tusho> astyle(1) or whatever is too
13:36:10 <ais523> pretty-printing can incidentally catch typos too, but its main purpose is to make source code look nicer and therefore easier to read
13:36:20 <AnMaster> ah well I use astyle myself. And I argue that one coding style per file is easier to read than a mix of several
13:36:28 <tusho> AnMaster: the second sentence is irrelevant
13:36:33 <tusho> the point is that pretty-printers have got it backwards
13:36:40 <AnMaster> tusho, because that is what I use astyle to fix.
13:36:46 * ais523 had forgotten that 'isnt' was an ALGOL-68 keyword
13:36:52 <tusho> AnMaster: not the point
13:36:53 <ais523> you have to love old-fashioned languages...
13:37:09 <ais523> AnMaster: also, the quotes are relevant unless you pragma a different way to specify keywords
13:37:22 <tusho> anyway, decided there's no point arguing with AnMaster a while ago, he just calls me a troll and never, ever changes his stance on any point...
13:37:23 <ais523> the default was to precede by a .
13:37:48 <ais523> Wikipedia seems to underline all the keywords
13:38:08 <AnMaster> I do change my stance on some issues
13:38:09 <ais523> and in fact apparently in one implementation you would write a keyword like isnt as isnt^H^H^H^H____
13:38:17 <ais523> which IMO is crazy, but there you go
13:38:26 <tusho> ais523: intercal should do that
13:38:27 <ais523> hmm... the creators of INTERCAL probably knew about this too
13:38:35 <ais523> tusho: it does in some of the operator names
13:38:44 <tusho> not for underlining
13:38:45 <ais523> the most portable way to write the unary XOR operator is V^H-
13:38:58 <ais523> not for underlining, though, you're right, but underlining was just a way to specify keywords
13:39:09 <ais523> in the Report, all the keywords were in bold and everything else was in italic
13:39:27 <ais523> also, ALGOL-68 is one of the few languages which allows you to have a variable and a keyword with the same name
13:39:55 <ais523> depending on how you were specifying keywords, the keyword and variable would either be .isnt and isnt, or ISNT and isnt, or isnt and _isnt
13:40:39 <ais523> Wikipedia has a similar example, actually: comment "bold" comment comment with the first and last instances of "comment" underlined
13:41:07 <ais523> oh, ALGOL-68 also allows spaces in variable names
13:41:35 <ais523> possibly that's where the _ means space in a variable name convention came from
13:41:58 <ais523> say you wanted to call a variable for in but were using RES stropping, you would write for_in because the underscore dekeyworded the words to either side
13:42:12 <tusho> I love how Rob Pike thinks UNIX and its principles are dead:
13:42:24 <tusho> # "Not only is UNIX dead, it's starting to smell really bad." - circa 1991
13:42:25 <tusho> # "Those days are dead and gone and the eulogy was delivered by Perl." - on one tool for one job
13:42:25 <tusho> # "I started keeping a list of these annoyances but it got too long and depressing so I just learned to live with them again. We really are using a 1970s era operating system well past its sell-by date. We get a lot done, and we have fun, but let's face it, the fundamental design of Unix is older than many of the readers of Slashdot, while lots of different, great ideas about computing and networks have been developed in the last 30 years. Using Unix is the c
13:42:31 <tusho> bet that last one got cut
13:43:44 <ais523> urk, Wikipedia just reminded me of Algol's strange terminology too, for instance "monadic" is Algolese for "unary", and "name" is Algolese for "address of"
13:43:45 <tusho> omputing equivalent of listening only to music by David Cassidy."
13:43:54 <tusho> ais523: monadic = unary is APL/K/etc too
13:44:00 <ais523> other languages around that time
13:44:05 <ais523> still confusing if you know Haskell though...
13:44:06 <tusho> they only have two kind of operator/functions: monadic and dyadic
13:44:18 <tusho> ais523: Or category theory. :P
13:45:27 <ais523> Algol has the opposite problem to C++ to some extent, there was so much implicit casting going on that they needed a different operator to compare pointers and the things they pointed to
13:45:43 <AnMaster> tusho, I too agree with that link you posted before, apart from last section
13:46:03 <tusho> AnMaster: your commenting style is quite opposed to it
13:46:07 <ais523> Algol translated into C is interesting: all variables end up as type const
13:46:14 <AnMaster> headers should be possible to include in any order (unless there are exceptional circumstances) and also several times
13:46:15 <tusho> justifying the text, and the fancy * stuff at the start of continuing lines and such
13:46:16 <ais523> for instance in C you would write int i;
13:46:25 <tusho> it is directly arguing against things like doxygen
13:46:34 <AnMaster> tusho, how do you mean? comment style? Yes I used doxygen in headers to auto generate documentation
13:46:35 <ais523> translating the Algol style you'd get int * const ip = alloca(sizeof(int));
13:46:47 <tusho> AnMaster: perhaps you should read that article again...
13:46:59 <ais523> you could use a garbage-collected malloc rather than alloca if you needed the variable to stick around
13:47:04 <tusho> its an important point, because it's another aspect of the singular point it makes
13:47:47 <AnMaster> tusho, the reason I document headers is it is API docs for fingerprint developers
13:48:35 <ais523> possibly the best part of ALGOL for someone who likes crazy language design is that it has 5 different sorts of context
13:48:36 <AnMaster> and there is also the case of the gpl header. for obvious reasons
13:48:53 <ais523> the context of something determines what implicit casts can be applied to it
13:48:54 <tusho> mmph, sqlobject is weird
13:49:02 <tusho> and nobody in #python knows it, apparentl
13:49:08 <ais523> you can create a strong context by putting in an explicit cast, but that's cheating really
13:49:48 <ais523> yay: http://burks.brighton.ac.uk/burks/language/other/a68rr/rrtoc.htm
13:49:53 <ais523> the ALGOL 68 report is publically online
13:50:05 <ais523> I have it in paper form, but it's nice to know other people can get it too
13:51:30 * ais523 tries to find the PDF: the flowchart's pretty necessary for understanding coercion
13:51:49 <tusho> why won't that wurorkwrk
13:51:54 <ais523> http://vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de/~wb/RR/rr.pdf
13:54:32 <ais523> also, what sort of official language specification uses words like SITHETY as names for BNF groups?
13:54:41 <ais523> I know you can call them anything you like, but really...
13:57:37 <tusho> ais523: this is a pg-13 channel!
13:57:39 <tusho> wait, no, it's not
13:58:00 <ais523> tusho: anyway, if you've never read the ALGOL-68 Revised Report, you should
13:58:11 <ais523> preferably the paper version as I can't find the flowcharts in the PDF
13:58:16 <ais523> tusho: because it's almost an esolang
13:58:26 <ais523> the concepts aren't particularly unusual, but all the trappings are
13:58:49 <ais523> probably if it was proposed nowadays people would think it was an esolang
13:58:53 <ais523> I mean, spaces in variable names?
13:59:13 <tusho> you can do that in lisp
14:00:00 <ais523> tusho: algol requires no special syntax for it, though
14:00:07 <tusho> it's not special syntax
14:00:13 <ais523> tusho: you put vertical bars in
14:00:21 <tusho> ais523: yes, but you could never use "hello"
14:00:26 <tusho> (|setq| |hello world| 2)
14:00:35 <tusho> setq is syntactical sugar for |setq|
14:00:46 <ais523> ref int hello world = auto int;
14:00:57 <ais523> .ref .int hello world = .auto .int;
14:01:05 <ais523> unless I'm going to change the keywording style
14:01:19 <ais523> that can be abbreviated to .int hello world; the same way as in C
14:06:45 <AnMaster> I hate OS X... I have to help mom reinstall OS X on her mac again, since it managed to become unbootable again... In fact even windows xp have less issues than OS X 10.4 (don't know about 10.5, but 10.4 is bad)
14:07:18 <ais523> I've never used it, except for a short time to use a text editor once
14:07:53 <AnMaster> and it seems to consist of *two* install DVDs
14:08:26 <tusho> no reason for it to become unbootable
14:08:30 <tusho> possibly a hardware problem
14:08:38 <tusho> i can't think of any known problems that'd do that, anyway
14:08:52 <tusho> unless your mom suddenly decided to go in the terminal and type every command ever
14:08:55 <AnMaster> tusho, well I did boot from a linux cd with memtest, no issues. could be other hardware of course
14:13:42 <fizzie> That's curious, since I've had 10.4 on this iBook for a couple of years now (four, it seems) and there have never really been any OS-related trouble.
14:14:01 <fizzie> Maybe not four years with OS 10.4, since it had 10.3 when I bought it.
14:14:22 <AnMaster> well this one was sold with 10.4. Don't remember how long ago
14:14:34 <AnMaster> but this is the third reinstall
14:15:25 <tusho> AnMaster: then it is almost certainly a hardware problem i'd say
14:15:41 <tusho> i have had absolutely 0 problems with 10.4 for the few years i've used it
14:15:58 <tusho> and people I know who use OS X have barely any problems
14:16:02 <tusho> certainly not unbootable ones
14:16:04 <AnMaster> well, it isn't memory, I used memtest86+ from a bootable linux cd
14:16:31 <AnMaster> tusho, and I don't know any other diagnosis tool
14:17:14 <AnMaster> well disk diagnosis, and that shows no issues either
14:17:39 <tusho> ask on a mac site?
14:17:44 <AnMaster> oh and the issue wasn't the same every time, the first time the file system had got corrupted, this time it seems that only the system itself got corrupted in some way, since all files seems readable
14:17:46 <tusho> there's tons of them with hardware sections
14:19:17 <AnMaster> tusho, this time booting into that "command line only" mode worked, but I couldn't get the GUI running. It just locked up in the middle of the boot process (I waited over three hours, so I don't think it was "just a bit slow")
14:19:31 <tusho> "command line only mode" = single user mode
14:20:01 <tusho> AnMaster: have you asked her what she was doing before it became unbootable?
14:20:08 <tusho> users can be very silly :^)
14:21:34 <fizzie> Also often worth a try if you feel like more troubleshooting than a reinstall: booting with the "command-v" key combination pressed; it should boot without the GUI progress-bar thing and show related messages.a
14:23:34 <AnMaster> "turned on computer, checked mail, worked with work related stuff in word (she is a teacher), uploaded some images from her camera, did some light curve adjustments in photoshop, sent one of the pics using email, turned off computer"
14:24:00 <AnMaster> shutdown was apparently clean as far as I can tell
14:24:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm command-v, will remember that to next time
14:25:32 <AnMaster> btw I hate that: switching between mac keyboards and normal keyboards, you end up using Alt instead of ctrl and so on, all due to their silly keyboard layout
14:26:53 <fizzie> I've remapped most of these iBook keys to work just like a "normal" keyboard for that very reason.
14:27:22 <fizzie> Things don't exactly match the labeling now, but that's not too bad.
14:28:04 <AnMaster> oh and of course the install itself take ages. at least an hour it seems
14:28:22 <tusho> the keyboard layout makes sense
14:28:34 <tusho> because you don't get clashes like ctrl-c and ctrl-v inside the terminal
14:28:39 <tusho> ctrl means ctrl, cmd means cm
14:28:48 <AnMaster> while I could get an arch system up and running in about 30 minutes with KDE assuming all the files are on the cd (and none need to be downloaded)
14:29:08 <AnMaster> and no files need to be downloaded for the os x install cd
14:30:15 <tusho> continue being incredulous about "DVDs! Plural!" and I'll start listing off the things included on the dvds and why
14:30:50 <fizzie> Few gigabytes of printer drivers, for one thing. :p
14:31:00 <fizzie> (The size of those things is something incredible.)
14:31:46 <AnMaster> sure I bet there is a reason to include a movie editor, garage band (I wouldn't even know what category that app is in, certainly it is not professional music editor, like cubase or such)
14:32:16 <fizzie> HP includes a copy of Tomcat (the Java servlet container thing) in many of its printer drivers, just because the "printer status" driver-dialog-tab is implemented as a Java servlet.
14:32:16 <AnMaster> oh and a demo version of office 2004
14:32:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, argh that explains why the install need 300 mb on windows at least
14:32:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, the hplip drivers on linux are way smaller
14:33:03 <tusho> garageband is for...wait for it...garage bands
14:33:19 <tusho> and the reason all those apps are included is because it's the iLife suite
14:33:22 <tusho> and is a major selling point for apple
14:33:27 <tusho> plus, er, most of the apps are useful
14:33:30 <tusho> being that I use them often
14:34:35 <AnMaster> iMovie? Garage Band (hey they should have called it: iGarage iBand iMania or something), iPhoto (ok that is probably good acutally)
14:34:43 <AnMaster> don't remember what else is included in iLife
14:35:36 <tusho> how refreshing, how clever, how 2003
14:35:48 <fizzie> And iPhoto, of course.
14:36:15 <tusho> iLife = i{Photo,Movie,Web,DVD}, GarageBand
14:36:31 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't bother reading the line much longer than that part about iGarage iBand.
14:36:40 <tusho> a website creator thingy
14:36:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, "iGarage iBand iMania" even
14:36:46 <fizzie> iWeb == "Create websites that are more custom, more complete, more you."
14:36:55 <tusho> it's not _too_ bad, obviously limited etc
14:37:04 <tusho> but it generates valid, relatively reasonable markup
14:37:10 <tusho> and does things like rss feeds for its blogs and such
14:37:19 <tusho> so it's not useful for much but I've seen sites with it and they're ok
14:38:48 <tusho> i've used iMovie and it's pretty good for simple stuff
14:39:06 <tusho> i don't really have any photos to manage but I've played with iPhoto and it seems very good for what it does
14:39:21 <tusho> i've burned stuff with iDVD and it was basically like iMovie, good for simple stuff
14:41:08 <AnMaster> well Apple is at least not taking part in the "golf install cd image size" competition
14:41:27 <tusho> it's not exactly a huge problem, though
14:41:32 <tusho> you install the OS -once- in most cases
14:42:51 <AnMaster> in fact for me, apple lost all attraction it had back when they ditched ppc for intel
14:43:01 <AnMaster> before that they actually had something special
14:43:18 <tusho> who cares if the new macs are many times faster because of it
14:43:21 <tusho> it was something speeeeeecial
14:43:26 <tusho> anyway, their "something special" is their OS
14:43:45 <AnMaster> so why don't sell it for normal pcs?
14:43:52 <tusho> because they are a hardware company
14:44:06 <AnMaster> well they would make more money as a software company I suspect
14:44:28 <AnMaster> tusho, oh yes forgot that macs are overpriced too
14:44:39 <tusho> they're overpriced because of the OS
14:44:52 <tusho> regular priced computer + the OS tax
14:45:04 <tusho> they're a hardware company that makes their money because of their software
14:45:09 <tusho> it's confusing but it seems to work
14:45:10 <AnMaster> oh yes they got one good thing, the magnetic power connection
14:45:18 <AnMaster> that is actually a very good idea
14:45:38 <tusho> atm my imac has two wires on it
14:45:41 <tusho> the power connector and the mouse lead
14:45:50 <tusho> i used a wireless mouse but its battery stuff went weird
14:45:54 <tusho> so i'm using a wired one now
14:46:05 <tusho> i have the ethernet plugged in
14:46:13 <tusho> because the wireless slowdown annoys me
14:46:28 <AnMaster> "battery stuff went weird" <-- battery leaked or?
14:46:47 <tusho> nah, it just kept turning off because the batteries were supposedly dead but they had like a third left
14:46:49 <tusho> replaced it, happened again
14:47:01 <tusho> happened again like twice more so i just said fuck it and plugged this el cheapo one in
14:47:09 <AnMaster> tusho, no warranty on the mouse any more?
14:47:23 <tusho> it has been dropped quite a bit in its life
14:47:29 <tusho> so its probably that
14:47:46 <tusho> e.g. the teflon base has like 3 scratches and they make it really scratchy to use :\
14:47:58 <tusho> the scratches are pretty bad and the base is pretty vulnerable
14:48:05 <AnMaster> oh and my mouse is a wire one, from Microsoft actually, it's ergonomic
14:48:34 <AnMaster> wireless, no visible buttons, "scroll-ball"
14:48:37 <tusho> AnMaster, did apple kill your babies or something?
14:49:05 <tusho> apparently you're not secure enough in that position that you have to point it out all the damn time to everyone
14:49:34 <AnMaster> tusho, I'm talking about it now since I'm waiting for os x to finish reinstalling
14:49:49 <AnMaster> I think that explains the reason for this much better
14:50:12 <AnMaster> and then I got office and photoshop and a lot of other stuff to set up again
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15:48:07 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | How else will a process send a message to the process that handles them?.
15:48:09 <optbot> tusho: it has plenty to do with number
15:56:42 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | >>> Music Game iniciado! Pergunta em 10 Segundos..
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16:30:49 <AnMaster> "The computer needs to restart to install upgrade" (translated from Swedish) ok fine. BUT: "The computer can't shut down due to not being able to stop "MirrorAgent"" (again translated from Swedish). That is just one of the daily issues on a clean OS X install
16:32:24 <AnMaster> seems I'm not alone with the issue according to google
16:33:03 <Deewiant> arguably it's a good thing that it tells you if something doesn't respond to SIGTERM (which I guess is what it tries?)
16:33:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I could force kill it
16:33:22 <ais523> Deewiant: probably sends it a stop signal first using its stop script
16:33:28 <AnMaster> but my mom is not computer literate enough to do that
16:33:29 <ais523> that's the best way to close down a service
16:33:40 <ais523> the way it's supposed to stop, anyway...
16:33:45 <AnMaster> and this "MirrorAgent" seems related to that apple idisk thing, which she doesn't even use
16:33:50 <AnMaster> so no idea why it is running at all
16:34:50 <ais523> AnMaster: probably a service that loads on startup
16:34:51 <Deewiant> yes, you could force kill it and the OS could as well, but if the program in question has your unsaved master's thesis in it you might want to consider another route
16:35:11 <ais523> well, yes, but it doesn't know that
16:35:22 <ais523> generally speaking if someone installs a service they want to be able to use it
16:35:55 <AnMaster> nor did I see any option for it
16:36:09 <ais523> most services are enabled by default, is my point
16:36:15 <ais523> because they can't be used if they aren't running
16:36:19 <AnMaster> ais523, that is the wrong approach
16:36:45 <ais523> well, quite possibly, it's the approach most OSes actually use in practice, though, even if you don't like it
16:37:00 <ais523> normally they're things like http servers or whatever, in which case that approach makes sense
16:37:08 <ais523> or otherwise might need to run without the user doing something
16:37:17 <AnMaster> 1) more possibilities for bugs (like in the case I just hit) 2) more memory used, longer startup time 3) more potential security risks
16:37:40 <ais523> this is why people securing OSes often go through all the services they don't need and turn them off
16:37:48 <ais523> and yes, I agree that it's a bad idea in this case, probably in most cases
16:37:55 <ais523> that doesn't prevent it being true, though
16:37:59 <AnMaster> ais523, secure by default. OpenBSD got a point...
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16:38:16 <tusho_> AnMaster: "The computer needs to restart to install upgrade" (translated from Swedish) ok fine. BUT: "The computer can't shut down due to not being able to stop "MirrorAgent"" (again translated from Swedish). That is just one of the daily issues on a clean OS X install
16:38:18 <tusho_> not a very clean install
16:38:33 <AnMaster> tusho_, it seems to be a issue other ppl hit according to google
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16:38:40 <AnMaster> so I'd say it is not something specific to this install
16:38:47 <tusho_> never hit it before, never heard of anyone hitting it
16:39:05 <AnMaster> http://macosx.com/tech-support/mac/mirroragent/16797.html
16:39:05 <AnMaster> http://www.macfixitforums.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/721735/site_id/1
16:39:11 <AnMaster> just the two first google hits
16:39:42 <tusho_> AnMaster: barely any problem has never happened before
16:39:47 <tusho_> the question is how common it is
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17:06:44 <ais523> does anyone here know where the "Rules of the Internet" are listed?
17:06:50 <ais523> People keep referring to them by number, which is disconcerting
17:06:56 <ais523> because I don't know which number goes with which rule
17:11:06 <Deewiant> rule 34 is common, others aren't
17:11:36 <ais523> Deewiant: do you know where the list is, though?
17:11:54 <Deewiant> have you seen other numbers? I don't think there a list, let alone rules 1 through 33
17:12:04 <ais523> Wikipedia redirects me to "Netiquette", which is not all that helpful
17:12:10 <ais523> also I'm pretty sure I've seen other numbers
17:12:18 <ais523> by the way, 34: "There is porn of it", right?
17:12:40 <Deewiant> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Rules_Of_The_Internet
17:13:03 <ais523> better get a different connection before going there, though
17:13:38 <Deewiant> evidently also http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:r45nvkJrRYsJ:rules.of-the-internet.com/&strip=1
17:13:44 <ais523> ah, found it in Wayback
17:14:37 <ais523> still, most of those aren't very interesting
17:14:46 <Deewiant> rule 34 is the only standard one I know of
17:15:12 <ais523> there's rule 35 which says that rule 34 doesn't apply if someone mentions rule 34
17:15:25 <ais523> sort of like that rider on Godwin's Law, which I'm surprised doesn't have a number
17:15:32 -!- tusho_ has changed nick to tusho.
17:16:24 <Deewiant> google seems to think that rule 35 is more commonly "if there is no porn of it, it will be made."
17:16:36 <pikhq> Everything except for rules 1, 2, and 34 can't really be agreed upon.
17:16:52 <ais523> presumably 34 caught on because it was the only sensible one of the lot
17:16:54 <pikhq> Rule 1: Don't talk about /b/. Rule 2: Do *NOT* talk about /b/.
17:16:54 <Deewiant> rules 1 and 2 most likely depend on the community in which they are quoted
17:17:05 <Deewiant> and as evidenced in that link above, rule 2 isn't universal
17:17:10 <ais523> Deewiant: it's /b/ everywhere I look for rule 1 at least
17:17:23 <ais523> which is strange, because that implies that in fact lots of people are talking about it
17:17:29 <Deewiant> and also, I think 34 is a lot older than the rest.
17:17:31 <pikhq> Since most of those come courtesy of IRC and/or /b/, I'd say rules 1 and 2 referring to /b/ make sense.
17:17:34 <ais523> in other words, you can't quote rule 1 without breaking it
17:17:52 <pikhq> ais523: It's a Fight Club reference.
17:18:44 <ais523> Fight Club didn't break the rule, strangely enough
17:18:49 <ais523> it was "You do not talk about Fight Club"
17:19:02 <ais523> that doesn't rule out the person giving the rule talking about Fight Club
17:19:13 <ais523> thus the rule can be given without breaking it
17:22:19 <tusho> Rules 1 and 2 are only for raids.
17:22:25 <tusho> Or they're not, depending on who you ask.
17:22:42 <ais523> clearly this is all a lot more confusing than I thought it would be
17:22:55 <pikhq> It's the Internet: nothing is well-defined.
17:23:00 <pikhq> I'm calling that metarule 1.
17:23:24 <tusho> "Rules of the internet" are what a bunch of /b/tards thought was funny to list.
17:23:37 <tusho> The ones relating to porn and its existence are mostly standard & useful.
17:23:45 <tusho> The rest is just filler.
17:24:10 <tusho> I mean, the person who posted rules 1 & 2 just violated them.
17:24:16 <tusho> It should be "Do not talk about /b/ outside of /b/"
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17:42:55 <tusho> http://www.conservapedia.com/Evolution
17:49:44 <ais523> tusho: the URL tells me all I need to know, I don't even need to visit it
17:49:51 <ais523> unless it's been vandalised for the trillionth time
17:49:58 <tusho> ais523: oh you do need to visit it
17:50:02 <tusho> it has been edited
17:50:07 <tusho> make sure to have images enabled
17:50:09 <tusho> it's not vandalised
17:50:16 <tusho> just click and gawp.
17:50:27 <ais523> they haven't got the picture of Jesus riding a dinosaur back again, have they?
17:50:35 <tusho> something entirely new
17:52:23 <AnMaster> tusho, I have a question for you about OS X
17:52:31 <tusho> AnMaster: what, 'WHY DOES IT SUCK SO MUCH?'
17:52:33 <AnMaster> where do you set fonts to use in the menus and such?
17:52:53 <AnMaster> my mother think they are too smal
17:52:59 <ais523> that might make two Macs different!
17:53:01 <tusho> why didn't you say
17:53:12 <tusho> thought you meant typeface
17:53:18 <AnMaster> so you mean you can set font size but not font
17:53:29 <AnMaster> now where to I make the fonts larger
17:53:31 <tusho> having not done it i don't know, just a sec
17:53:34 <tusho> i'll give a quick look
17:54:28 <tusho> i don't believe it was native in tiger, which is odd
17:54:32 <tusho> perhaps it's in leopard
17:54:36 <tusho> apparently tinkertool can do it
17:54:45 <tusho> http://www.bresink.com/osx/TinkerTool.html
17:55:08 <tusho> that is a shame, i wonder why not
17:55:14 <tusho> AnMaster: tinker tool -> fonts
17:57:35 <tusho> but yeah, that sucks muchly
18:00:19 <AnMaster> tusho, hm that OS X lack that setting by default?
18:00:30 <tusho> dunno if it's in leopard
18:00:34 <tusho> i think so, they made stuff all vectory then
18:00:39 <tusho> and thus added a lot more sizing stuff
18:00:40 <AnMaster> wow you admitted it ;) *ducks*
18:00:57 <tusho> i have never denied flaws in os x, and i argue exactly the same with people who spew crap about windows
18:01:29 <tusho> real flaws: yes, bad
18:01:44 <tusho> flaws that are being exaggerated or are just untrue, etc.: argue
18:07:03 <AnMaster> why does mac firefox have rearranged menus compared to linux firefox...
18:09:41 <tusho> AnMaster: to fit in with the platform
18:09:43 <tusho> its the same on windows
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18:16:08 <AnMaster> tusho, well for ppl who use firefox on many platforms it is confusing
18:16:25 <tusho> AnMaster: not really.
18:16:34 <tusho> surely, being such a masochist, you would have learned all the shortcuts?
18:16:37 <AnMaster> tusho, yes took a while to find the settings dialog
18:16:47 <ais523> tusho: presumably AnMaster has his own shortcuts
18:16:51 <tusho> on OS X it's always appname->preferences
18:16:51 <ais523> for every application ever invente
18:17:02 <tusho> and it's always cmd-,
18:17:13 <tusho> except FF seems to fail at cmd-, for some godforsaken reason that is their fault :P
18:17:20 <tusho> even though it's listed as the shortcut
18:17:30 <tusho> and flashes the right menu bar entry when you type it
18:18:38 <tusho> AnMaster: the thing with ff is that they do everything themselves, pretty much
18:18:48 <tusho> so it works OS X like enough apart from tons of corner cases
18:19:06 <AnMaster> tusho, or it could be os x that works apart from corner cases
18:19:15 <tusho> AnMaster: because I know how firefox does it
18:19:28 <tusho> xul is kind of a waste of time anyway they have to recode the gui for different platforms to fit in regardless
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18:43:02 <tusho> why is http://instantrimshot.com/ pressed down when you're not clicking it
18:43:06 <tusho> and pressed out when you click
18:43:44 <ais523> tusho: you were holding your mouse upside-down?
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19:36:30 <tusho> i hold the title of the submitter of the most controversial reddit submission of all time
19:36:34 <tusho> http://www.reddit.com/controversial/
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20:11:45 <AnMaster> tusho, another issue, the default terminal on OS X is braindead
20:12:08 <AnMaster> tusho, how do you jump to beginning of the line?
20:12:09 <tusho> also i'm not steve jobs, plz2be stop bugging me about things you don't like in os x
20:12:15 <tusho> like every other terminal
20:12:35 <tusho> Deewiant: cmd.exe is a terminal?
20:13:01 <Deewiant> no, it's a terminal emulator like all those other programs you're talking about
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20:13:56 <AnMaster> tusho, I use "home" on my termina
20:14:06 <tusho> that's not standard
20:14:07 <ais523> I thought it was normally in the 100s
20:14:12 <AnMaster> tusho, it seems to work on every one
20:14:20 <tusho> AnMaster: apparently not.
20:14:23 <ais523> oh dear, another tusho/AnMaster style argument brewing up?
20:14:30 <AnMaster> tusho, yet this done doesn't obey ~/.inputrc
20:14:31 <tusho> AnMaster is just whining about os x
20:14:34 <tusho> AnMaster: are you sure
20:15:59 <AnMaster> tusho, I copied the one from my own computer... restarted terminal.app didn't help
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20:17:08 <ais523> but I'm trying to read two length documents at once, so didn't even notice for ages the first time
20:17:48 <AnMaster> tusho, also l10n is braindead in OS X. Finder says the directory is called "Bibliotek" but the terminal think it is called "Library
20:18:02 <tusho> AnMaster: SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HOW YOU DON'T LIKE OS X
20:18:09 <tusho> I. CANNOT. DO. ANYTHING. ABOUT. IT.
20:18:12 <tusho> STOP. HIGHLIGHTING. ME!
20:18:24 <tusho> it's like the 10th time you've complained about it today to me
20:31:27 <AnMaster> tusho, oh and weird, to type ctrl-c you hit cmd-.
20:31:52 <tusho> cmd-. does that too and i don't know why.
20:31:54 <tusho> but you type ctrl-c.
20:31:56 <tusho> AnMaster: SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HOW YOU DON'T LIKE OS X
20:32:37 <ais523> tusho: by the way, did I tell you that I used OS X and the menus were all in the wrong place and I couldn't cut-and-paste left handed without using my index finger?
20:32:40 <AnMaster> tusho, ah now it does, had to change a setting for Terminal.app
20:33:01 <tusho> AnMaster: I never had to do that.
20:33:09 <tusho> now SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HOW YOU DON'T LIKE OS X TO ME
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20:35:17 <oerjan> ayeeh, it's changing! run away!
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20:35:36 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokoko
20:35:42 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:35:46 <oklofok> okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:35:47 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:35:51 <oklofok> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:36:02 <ais523> oh dear, we were going so well too
20:36:10 <oerjan> for some reason this oko tower reminds me of that LHC black hole
20:36:38 <ais523> oklofok: it was sufficiently distracting that you forgot what it was
20:37:01 <oerjan> it was a raven. it quothed "Nevermore", except in finnish
20:39:07 <oerjan> <AnMaster> Sunday as first doesn't make sense
20:40:09 <oerjan> the resting day was Saturday, as any jew could tell you. blame the christians for confusing it
20:41:00 <pikhq> Catholic church, specificially.
20:41:26 <oerjan> yes, some christian churches (adventists?) reversed it
20:41:39 <oklofok> in my opinion he wouldn't have had a point even if sunday were the original
20:42:43 <oerjan> i think monday being first may be an ISO standard or something
20:43:13 <pikhq> oerjan: And some christian churches point out that the day doesn't even *matter*...
20:43:48 <pikhq> Given that Christianity doesn't exactly follow Jewish laws & traditions, anyways...
20:43:54 <oerjan> indeed unless you are a young earth creationist you don't consider it a literal day anyhow
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20:45:07 <oerjan> i vaguely recall something about celevrating Sunday being because that was the day of Jesus' resurrection
20:47:59 <oerjan> wp seems to agree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Sabbath
20:48:18 <AnMaster> as I also said: I don't like it. But you got a point
20:48:30 <AnMaster> but if it is an ISO standard I agree with it
20:52:19 <oerjan> that may or may not be an ass-pull
20:53:29 <fizzie> Yes, ISO 8601:1988 defines Monday as the first day of the week.
20:53:48 <fizzie> Or at least that's what the man page of my strftime function says for the %V formatting specifier, I haven't checked.
20:54:53 <oerjan> ah yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_the_week#First_day_of_the_week mentions it, though not the Sunday page
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21:34:01 <tusho> <AnMaster> but if it is an ISO standard I agree with it
21:34:04 <tusho> great reasoning there
21:34:13 * tusho proposes a new ISO: Everyone should jump off a cliff.
21:34:21 <tusho> Woohoo! It got ratified! AnMaster, get to work.
21:34:38 <oerjan> sounds like a master villain scheme to me
21:34:47 <AnMaster> tusho, I like using standardlized systems
21:34:53 <ais523> tusho: arguably OOXML is a step in that direction
21:34:57 <tusho> AnMaster: what system are you using right now?
21:34:58 <ais523> as in, straight off a cliff
21:35:12 <ais523> also, now we can persuade AnMaster to distribute cfunge in pax format
21:35:13 <AnMaster> tusho, Linux, but there are no standard OS.
21:35:32 <tusho> AnMaster: That's like offering a seperate Windows version.
21:35:33 <ais523> AnMaster: tar is no longer specified by POSIX
21:35:34 <tusho> Would you do that??????????????
21:35:57 <ais523> oh dear, someone else who actually had heard of pax before I told them
21:36:05 <tusho> AnMaster: Yes. Windows doesn't obey POSIX, nor does tar.
21:36:08 <ais523> this is one strike against my theory of using it for C-INTERCAL...
21:36:18 <ais523> AnMaster: well, Windows didn't fail a POSIX testsuite once
21:36:26 <AnMaster> ais523, actually I found I had it installed, even though I had no clue what it was
21:36:37 <tusho> ais523: No actually I thikn that should be @AnMaster.
21:36:45 <tusho> If Windows doesn't fail POSIX tests, surely cfunge should support it?
21:36:54 <ais523> AnMaster: well it's what they put in POSIX to replace tar
21:37:15 <AnMaster> tusho a clean windows install would fail it
21:37:25 <tusho> AnMaster: are you sure? ais523?
21:37:37 <ais523> tusho: the test is widely believed to have been heavily rigged
21:37:51 <ais523> by implementing only the parts the testsuite tested
21:38:00 <tusho> surely that's quite a lot though
21:38:02 <ais523> and taking advantage of every optional feature by not implementing it
21:38:11 <ais523> in many cases returning ENOSYS is enough to pass POSIX
21:38:17 <AnMaster> and cfunge *does* depend on some optional features
21:38:37 <ais523> probably it was a nonstandard configuration too
21:38:48 <tusho> AnMaster: the website claims it supports any posix system
21:38:54 <tusho> better change that
21:39:16 <AnMaster> tusho, also see README for more details
21:39:26 <tusho> like i'd ever download cfunge
21:39:26 <AnMaster> though that may be missing there
21:40:07 <tusho> ihope: You missed a 4?
21:40:09 <ihope> The technique used to find this answer is operant conditioning.
21:40:19 <ais523> tusho: why wouldn't you? Waiting for it to turn up in your package manager?
21:40:32 <ais523> I got it working a lot faster than I got CCBI working
21:40:35 <tusho> ais523: i hear apple are including it with the next os x
21:40:43 <ais523> (although I did write the build system for both by hand)
21:40:43 <ihope> The question is how many times a previously rewarded behavior must be punished before the behavior is stopped whenever the instrument of punishment is seen.
21:40:47 <tusho> except it's reduced functionality
21:41:01 <ihope> The instrument of punishment is a spray bottle. Use your imagination.
21:41:03 <tusho> all it does is print 'OS X is too retarded and dumb in every aspect to run this program, please complain to tusho <penguinofthegods@gmail.com>'
21:41:23 <AnMaster> tusho, as far as I know cfunge works on OS X
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21:41:33 <tusho> AnMaster: how can it, OS X sucks in every possible way
21:41:36 <tusho> and I'm the only one who can fix it
21:41:46 <AnMaster> tusho, it is way more posix than windows at least
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21:42:20 <tusho> AnMaster: it is certified unix, in fact.
21:44:44 <ais523> AnMaster: anyway I've pushed the new C-INTERCAL version
21:44:48 <ais523> with the new build system
21:44:51 <ais523> and your patch to IFFI
21:45:10 <ais523> although the cfunge stuff is broken atm
21:45:17 <ais523> as I haven't written any build system for it
21:48:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup ~dup !dup !dup ~dup !d !d.
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21:55:30 <ihope> Hmm, I wonder how hard it would be to implement a Minsky machine in Proce.
21:56:17 <ais523> that was definitely me
21:56:24 <ais523> it was a finite loop between EgoBot and bsmnt_bot
21:56:26 <tusho> that's from the dupdog times
21:56:44 <ais523> once I implemented Underload in EgoBot, I got an infinite loop going too
21:57:00 <ihope> A register might be implementable as some construct that will oscillate at harmonics of a certain frequency. The tricky parts are creating that register and getting the harmonics to change right.
21:57:59 <tusho> ais523: ha, I knew it
21:58:01 <tusho> it was cakeprophet
21:58:05 <tusho> that's where dupdog comes from
21:58:22 <ais523> dupdog is great though
21:58:30 <ais523> it's one of those languages like Xigxag
21:58:34 <ais523> which obviously isn't Turing-complete
21:58:37 <tusho> 19:17:01 <CakeProphet> hmm... I feel insipiration for an esoteric language.
21:58:40 <ais523> but you can't really tell for sure
21:59:02 <tusho> i think dupdog is tc
21:59:11 <ais523> do you think Xigxag is tc?
21:59:29 <ais523> for that matter, that 2,3 turing machine is also reasonably obviously non-TC, except that it is
21:59:36 <ais523> I thought it was non-TC for ages while trying to do the proof
21:59:56 <tusho> ais523: no, i don't think xigxag is tc
22:10:08 <oerjan> hm so now there is a cycle of esoteric interpreters
22:10:19 <ais523> oerjan: in which languages?
22:10:42 <oerjan> they're a bit too close for comfort though
22:10:44 <ais523> hmm... I want to get C into that cycle somewhere
22:19:31 <oerjan> spam: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Turing_machine
22:19:52 <oerjan> (new page so i cannot do it)
22:20:42 <ais523> I've been deleting the spam straight from the RSS feeds recently
22:20:51 <ais523> but you managed to beat even the RSS feed in reporting it this time
22:29:28 <ais523> oklofok: I can send you deleted versions if you really need them and there was nothing wrong with them
22:29:36 <ais523> it's just random strings of letters, mostly
22:29:56 <oerjan> well you could base an esolang on it :D
22:32:21 <oklofok> i want a language that opens new threads like every cycle, and they never die
22:32:32 <oklofok> so that execution is O(n^2) for n steps
22:32:51 <ais523> oklofok: sounds like Proud in reverse
22:33:01 <ais523> Proud starts by creating an uncountably infinite number of threads
22:33:06 <ais523> and kills them until there's only one left
22:33:15 <oklofok> is proud your declarative superlanguage?
22:33:30 <oklofok> i like that conceptualization
22:33:51 <ais523> hmm... in theory you could run a Proud program using bogosort-like methods
22:34:26 <oklofok> random perms or random swaps?
22:34:31 <ais523> put all the objects in a random order, repeat if it's wrong
22:34:57 <ais523> swaps is bozosort, it's apparently twice as fast
22:36:11 <oklofok> i find that counter-intuitive, you'd think the sorted list would be kind of a corner that's less probable to achieve by random exchanges
22:36:23 <oklofok> whereas the permutator will try all things equally probably
22:36:39 <ais523> actually I would have expected them to be equally fast
22:36:49 <ais523> there's a proof of it linked from the wiki article, though
22:36:55 <ais523> some mathematician was bored enough to write a paper about it
22:36:58 <oklofok> well yeah that's what i assumed too
22:37:08 <oklofok> and yeah i read taht paper
22:39:04 <oklofok> a greater reason why you'd think the swapper would be slower is that you get repeated states more probably
23:06:07 <ais523> it's linked from the wiki article on bogosort
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23:39:34 <tusho> who wants to see the mammoth sql query that ais523 wrote (well, I clarified exactly what I was trying to do to ais and he wrote it)?
23:44:47 <oerjan> is it a woolly mammoth?
23:44:56 <tusho> SELECT name, threads.threadid, MAX(date), (readtime IS NULL AND MAX(date) > defaultreadtime OR readtime IS NOT NULL and MAX(date) > readtime) AS new FROM ((posts CROSS JOIN threads USING (threadid)) CROSS JOIN userdata LEFT JOIN readtimes ON (userdata.userid=readtimes.userid AND threads.threadid=readtimes.threadid)) WHERE userdata.userid=? GROUP BY threads.threadid ORDER BY MAX(date) DESC;
23:45:15 <tusho> that requires an index on posts USING BTREE (threadid,date)
23:45:25 <tusho> and an index on userthreadlastread (userid,threadid)
23:47:25 <tusho> oerjan: that is a woolly mammoth is it not
23:48:19 <oerjan> well i see some threading there, so yeah
23:48:29 <tusho> oerjan: oh, not that kind of thread
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