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00:43:58 <tusho> oklopol and AnMaster
00:44:02 <tusho> AnMaster: fuck you
00:44:08 <tusho> (just my canned responses to those people)
00:46:48 <tusho> AnMaster: just joking by the way
00:46:51 <tusho> i'm not actually angry with you
00:46:53 <tusho> that's too much work
00:46:57 <tusho> just don't say something stupid.
00:51:39 <GregorR> tusho: u sux0rz (but he won't actually read this since he just uses canned responses)
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03:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | and there would be no CAR to JESUS CHRIST GET INTO.
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04:49:50 <oerjan> but but there were no cars at the time of Jesus
04:50:02 <oerjan> unless he made one with a miracle
04:50:30 <oerjan> but they didn't put it into the gospels because no one could wrap their mind around the concept
04:53:18 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | or even partial.
04:53:22 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | trying 1.5s.
05:02:06 <GregorR> I'm petting my cat, and she's kneading, but she gets such a good grip on the carpet, she's actually dragging herself forward slowly :P
05:05:19 <oerjan> so you will slowly be leaving us, then
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09:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | does it have a good module/function browser? Does it provide good autocompletion? Tooltips which show the types of functions as you type them in? Does it have a good debugger? A refactoring tool? How well is it integrated with QuickCheck?.
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10:17:43 <optbot> Mony: Urgh. Missed some stuff.
10:18:05 <Mony> hum .... optbot ?
10:18:05 <optbot> Mony: if you have an interpreter, you can do all sorts of neat stuff
10:18:15 <Mony> that's right ^^
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12:46:30 <tusho> http://www.piratejesus.com/nerdcore/nerdcore017.gif ahahahahahhaha
12:55:43 <tusho> written by the guy who made that Chronotron time travel game
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15:05:26 <optbot> Mony: Just change the name to COMPLICATED and you've got an esoteric programming language :-)
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15:45:11 <tusho> need some help with your sql query in a min
15:45:18 <ais523> tusho: I didn't even realise there was a memoserv on here...
15:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | i wasn't making any argument so there was nothing i could specify.
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17:45:36 <AnMaster> hm this is undefined in C right:
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17:45:47 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, modifies i twice between sequence points
17:46:15 <ais523> ah, OK, I wondered what on earth you were trying to write therer
17:47:09 <AnMaster> something like: "What does this code do in C: *(i++) == *(i++);" 1) blah 2) blah 3) It is undefined 4) blah
17:47:23 <AnMaster> now if you can come up with hilarious stuff for the other 3 answers I would like to know
17:47:57 <ais523> well, I imagine much hilarity could ensue if i were a macro
17:48:45 <ais523> imagine #define i (char*)0x05),(intptr
17:48:52 <ais523> on a machine with memory-mapped addresses
17:49:19 <AnMaster> ais523, nah assume is is char *i;
17:49:26 <AnMaster> and is set before at some point
17:49:47 <ais523> most compilers will increment i by either 1 or 2 given that code
17:50:01 <ais523> gcc will error out on it if given the right settings
17:50:28 <ais523> also, it's likely to return false if i increments by 2 and the two characters in question are different, could be either true or false but more likely true if i increments by 1
17:50:42 <ais523> however this is just based on what compilers normally do in practice, not on what they could do
17:53:28 <ais523> heh, I just tried it in gcc and it optimised it into 1; because I never used the value of i after that
17:53:33 <ais523> let me make my test program more interesting...
17:55:26 <AnMaster> well I already made up the bogus answers
17:57:06 <AnMaster> btw does php really not have either tuples or structs?
17:58:27 <ais523> AnMaster: well what gcc-bf does is equivalent to (i+=2,1)
17:58:38 <ais523> it seems that it increments i twice because there are two i++s in it
17:58:50 <ais523> but because the expression on each side of the == is the same it does common subexpression elimination
17:59:00 <ais523> and decides that the two sides are always the same
17:59:22 <ais523> still, just goes to show that you can't guarantee any sensible behaviour from code like taht
18:00:15 * ais523 is annoyed that so much stuff assumes 32-bit int nowadays
18:00:39 <ais523> gcc spends ages zero-extending the argument to putchar from char to int
18:01:10 <ais523> also the algorithm it uses is something like typedef char int[4]; int i; i[0]=c; i[1]=0; i[2]=i[1]; i[3]=i[2];
18:01:14 <ais523> which does not translate well into brainfuck
18:01:36 <ais523> as in BF register=constant is a lot easier than register=register
18:01:55 <pikhq> putchar has been putchar(int) for, well, ever...
18:01:59 <ais523> maybe there's some setting somewhere to influence what code it generates
18:02:15 <ais523> pikhq: I'm fine with that, just not fine with people assuming 32-bit int when 16 is perfectly allowed by the standard
18:02:24 <ais523> that would double the speed of all my calls to putchar...
18:03:08 <ais523> anyway, putchar's slow enough anyway due to stdio overhead
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18:03:27 <ais523> probably I'll implement __builtin_fastputchar and __builtin_fastgetchar that just map to . and , directly
18:03:37 <ais523> so people can avoid using stdio in short programs and produce considerably shorter output
18:03:53 <AnMaster> ais523, will it be possible to cross compile gcc to brainfuck some day?
18:03:59 <AnMaster> that is compile gcc itself with gcc-bf
18:04:11 <ais523> there are various obstacles to doing that
18:04:13 <AnMaster> and how much disk space would you need?
18:04:18 <ais523> the main one being that the result wouldn't run even on a supercomputer
18:04:30 <ais523> and gcc needs more than 16MB of memory to run, normally
18:04:42 <ais523> that's another big problem, I'd need to make bigger pointers
18:05:03 <ais523> not very, but it would make the marker code even more inefficient than it already is
18:05:17 <ais523> it's bad enough that calculating *i is O(n) in the value of i
18:05:28 <ais523> something which doesn't even make sense in the context of pointers in normal C
18:05:57 <ais523> AnMaster: that's O(n^2) in i+a
18:06:11 <ais523> however if i points somewhere on the stack it's a lot faster
18:06:22 <ais523> pointers to auto variables can be accessed faster than pointers to heap if you have a big heap
18:06:42 <ais523> and yes, brainfuck is really bad at pointers, yet gcc seems to think they're fast
18:06:57 <ais523> I need to get gcc to stop all those backwards optimisations
18:07:27 <ais523> like optimising x*=10; into {int a, b; a=x; b=x<<3; x+=a; x+=b;}
18:07:41 <ais523> the first is quite a lot better in brainfuck with char x
18:07:43 <AnMaster> ais523, so for gcc-bf -O0 is better than -O3?
18:07:59 <ais523> -Os is an interesting one, I might try that
18:08:06 <ais523> but things like register variables speed things up a lot
18:08:17 <ais523> maybe I should look at all the optimisations individually to see if they help
18:08:26 <ais523> and redefine -O1, -O2 and -O3 accordingly
18:08:37 <ais523> you're not supposed to do that, by the way
18:08:44 <ais523> but I may as well if it leads to better code
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18:08:46 <AnMaster> ais523, about register variables... doesn't GCC handle that itself? and ignore the register keyword?
18:08:53 <ais523> AnMaster: it depends on the optimisation level
18:08:57 <ais523> yes at -O2 up, I think
18:09:00 <Deewiant> GCC does that kind of optimization at a higher level than at machine code generation level? O_o
18:09:14 <ais523> Deewiant: yes, and IMO it shouldn't, at least in gcc-bf
18:09:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no one said GCC had a clean architecture
18:09:22 <ais523> probably it does it at the RTL level
18:09:27 <AnMaster> though gcc-bf is certainly not a normal case
18:09:36 <ais523> in which case I could get round it by wrapping multiplications in an unspec, but that's kind-of hacky
18:09:50 <ais523> still, I've done all sorts of other things in my code to hack around limitations in gcc
18:09:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I've heard it doesn't, doesn't mean I can't be surprised at that anyway :-P
18:10:14 <ais523> AnMaster: something that gcc doesn't know about but can manipulate
18:10:34 <ais523> the archetypal example would be an __asm__ statement
18:10:41 <ais523> where gcc has no clue what the asm does, but can move it around anyway
18:10:54 <ais523> except that ironically __asm__ isn't an unspec, it's something else that acts similarly
18:11:10 <AnMaster> ais523, um what about the "automatic select registers to use" feature of __asm__ in gcc
18:11:33 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's reasonably irrelevant here though
18:11:37 <ais523> an unspec can operate on pseudos
18:11:48 <ais523> which are things which will eventually go into registers, just gcc hasn't decided which one yet
18:11:57 <ais523> anyway, an example of ridiculous hackiness: (match_test "GET_MODE(op) == mode || GET_MODE(op) == VOIDmode))) || (((0")
18:12:43 <ais523> AnMaster: the bit inside the quotes is C
18:12:46 <ais523> the bit outside is almost lisp
18:12:58 <AnMaster> and the bit inside is unbalanced
18:13:04 <ais523> yes, that's what I was getting at
18:13:16 <AnMaster> well I don't know the context of that
18:13:16 <ais523> the unbalancing being to work around a bug which makes it impossible to write your own predicates that match constants
18:13:32 <ais523> because in gcc constants don't have data types
18:13:46 <ais523> just whether they're integers or floating points
18:13:50 <AnMaster> isn't there some famous quote about complex C projects and clisp interpreters
18:14:10 <ais523> so everywhere where you want to compare data-types, you have to special-case constants
18:14:15 <ais523> they forgot to so I had to do it by hand
18:14:24 <ais523> and yes, gcc's .md files are written in a sexp-based language
18:14:34 <ais523> which is basically lisp expressions without any sort of flow control
18:14:56 <AnMaster> yes I know what sexp are. I like that as a generic data format
18:15:18 <ais523> also it's basically like writing a polyglot as the .md files are compiled into two stages of the program
18:15:28 <AnMaster> for example, the game supertux use sexp for all it's levels, and other non-binary data files (that is, everthing except images and sounds)
18:15:30 <ais523> one that converts GIMPLE to RTL, one that converts RTL to asm
18:16:01 <ais523> so you have to write code that works in both directions
18:17:41 <AnMaster> btw, does PHP really lack both tuples and structs?
18:17:48 <ais523> I don't know PHP, really
18:17:51 <ais523> but I wouldn't be surprised
18:17:56 <ais523> it has objects and arrays
18:18:00 <ais523> and objects can be used as structs
18:18:09 <AnMaster> well arrays sure, but objects aren't POD
18:19:10 <AnMaster> I want an array of tuples really
18:19:21 <ais523> can't you use an array as a tuple?
18:19:35 <ais523> seeing as in PHP you can index arrays with arbitrary objects
18:19:42 <AnMaster> well nice except the tuple contains one nested array
18:19:42 <ais523> they work sort-of like hashes
18:20:00 <ais523> AnMaster: it's PHP, it's messy whatever you do
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19:03:21 <AnMaster> off topic: how do I create an iso image from a cd, using command line tools.
19:03:55 <AnMaster> well actually a dvd in this case.
19:04:04 <AnMaster> what is a good block size for dd then?
19:04:15 <olsner> some large size, doesn't matter much
19:04:32 <AnMaster> olsner, it will handle when the disk doesn't match in block size right?
19:05:04 <olsner> you could probably just as well use cat if you wanted to
19:05:16 <ais523> actually, probably not cp
19:05:22 <ais523> as that doesn't copy the content of devices by default
19:05:25 <ais523> but the devices themselves
19:05:56 <AnMaster> hm, also I don't have enough free disk space on any computer with a dvd reader, I guess I'll use nfs
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19:26:09 <tusho> ais523 is STILL HERE
19:26:17 <tusho> i forgot all about that, and I need major SQL help still, damn
19:26:28 <ais523> tusho: they fixed the door
19:26:48 <tusho> go so I can be annoyed that you're not here to fix the problem
19:26:50 <tusho> and then come back tomorrow
19:26:56 <tusho> and continually remind me of your prescence
19:27:00 <tusho> so that I have time to get the help I need
19:27:15 <ais523> I may go soon, just because I need something to drink
19:27:23 <ais523> just getting caught up with this week's Agora stuff first
19:28:52 <ais523> AnMaster: the door to the building in which my normal Internet connection is
19:29:02 <AnMaster> ais523, ah what was the issue with it?
19:29:02 <tusho> i thought you meant to #esoteric
19:29:04 <ais523> I had problems connecting for ages because the door was broken and I couldn't get in
19:29:15 <ais523> AnMaster: they had to lock it by hand because it kept opening in the middle of the night
19:29:17 <ais523> and I didn't have a key
19:29:21 <tusho> ais523: have a drink of SQL
19:29:45 <AnMaster> ais523, so you connected from elsewhere?
19:30:02 <AnMaster> ais523, how goes gcc-bf btw? Solved the divide 64-bit ints but yet?
19:30:14 <ais523> AnMaster: I've been working on something else completely unrelated to esoprogramming
19:30:29 <ais523> deadline coming up in real life and none of the other people who are supposed to be helping me have noticed, it seems
19:30:33 <ais523> or even responded to my emails about it
19:30:43 <AnMaster> I know the freebsd kernel source contains an efficient (for normal processors) implementation of signed and unsigned quad word divide
19:30:51 <tusho> ais523: that made me laugh
19:31:04 <tusho> but, not offensively
19:31:11 <ais523> BF efficiency follows completely different rules to normal processor efficiency
19:31:12 <tusho> but it made me laugh for an unrelated reason
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19:38:28 <oerjan> tusho: SQL totally sounds like an obscure energy drink. maybe it is.
19:38:50 <tusho> it uses I.N.D.E.X.E.s for that extra boost
19:38:56 <ais523> anyway, I'm zooming off for a bit
19:38:57 <tusho> there are some health concerns (makes you fat), but meh
19:39:03 <ais523> if you shout loudly enough now I'll come back a bit later though
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19:39:29 <oerjan> apparently too obscure to have a wikipedia page ;)
19:40:14 <oerjan> is he using the echo to find his way back?
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19:41:43 <tusho> did they delete his page?!
19:43:25 <AnMaster> tusho, OS X question: in OS X, how do you eject an unmounted CD. say I unmounted it using umount as root in a terminal
19:43:30 * oerjan wonders why Buck Godot doesn't update regularly when Girl Genius does
19:43:51 <oerjan> i mean the frequency is regular but not the time of day
19:44:00 <tusho> the eject button on the keyboard. if your keyboard is stupid, try the F12 key.
19:44:18 <tusho> lemme remember what it was for retarded keyboards :D
19:44:51 <tusho> AnMaster: you have to hold it down possibly?
19:44:54 <tusho> just tapping it doesn't work
19:45:00 <tusho> to avoid inadvertently ejecting
19:45:03 <AnMaster> tusho, yes and the "eject" symbol showed up on screen
19:45:22 <tusho> the only other thing i know then is 'drutil tray eject' in a terminal
19:45:34 <tusho> if that fails, i guess you'll have to re-mount it and i don't know why any of these would fail
19:46:00 <AnMaster> tusho, how would you remount it under /Volumes, I get a "permission denied" as root
19:46:31 <tusho> AnMaster: put the disc back in?
19:46:48 <tusho> anyway, what does mount say?
19:46:50 <tusho> it shouldn't say that
19:47:07 <tusho> mount should work fine
19:47:11 <AnMaster> tusho, "mount: Permission denied"
19:47:18 <tusho> AnMaster: yeah, but how did you call it
19:48:10 <AnMaster> mount -o nodev,nosuid,read-only /dev/disk1s3 "/Volumes/Mac OS X Install Disc 1"
19:48:19 <tusho> AnMaster: with sudo in front of it?
19:48:39 <AnMaster> tusho, no since I had used sudo su - 3 lines above
19:48:55 <AnMaster> didn't think you would need sudo when you were in a root shell
19:49:01 <tusho> AnMaster: did you mkdir /Volumes/Mac OS X Install Disc 1?
19:49:15 <tusho> mount for me has always required you mkdir the target dir...
19:49:15 <AnMaster> tusho, it still exist from when I ran unmount
19:49:30 <tusho> then...that should work perfectly
19:49:45 <tusho> AnMaster: try rmdiring it and mkdiring it, just in case
19:49:52 <tusho> other than that...shrug, your machine is crazy
19:50:13 <tusho> surely it remounted when you plugged the disc back in though
19:50:22 <AnMaster> tusho, apple hardware test (booting cd with d pressed) reports no errors
19:50:32 <tusho> surely it remounted when you put the disc back in though
19:51:08 <AnMaster> tusho, well issue was I couldn't eject it, but drutil worked and yes it remounted on insert
19:51:21 <AnMaster> don't you think I tried to mount it again before I asked you in the first place?
19:51:34 <tusho> if it remounted on insert ... why do you need to mount it
19:51:54 <AnMaster> tusho, well I was just curious there. But thanks for that drutil line
19:52:08 <tusho> yeah, well, closed as WFM
19:53:29 <AnMaster> tusho, also the "drutil tray" seems strange to me
19:53:51 <tusho> stop being so silly :P
19:54:09 <tusho> oh and drutil is named as such because it uses the DiscRecording framework to interact with the drive
19:54:19 <tusho> Common verbs include burn, erase, eject, help, info, list,
19:54:24 <tusho> Info, status and tray are now verbs.
19:54:41 <AnMaster> I thought it was maybe "DRiveUtil"
19:54:48 <tusho> that would make sense too :P
19:54:58 <tusho> perhaps it's Doctor Utility
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20:02:52 <AnMaster> tusho, also verbs: "subchannel" "version" "cdtext"
20:02:57 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:03:08 <tusho> AnMaster: Shut up or I'll subchannel you
20:03:40 <AnMaster> that actually sounds as it make sense on irc
20:03:43 <ais523> oh dear, has an argument grown up while I've been missing?
20:03:45 <ais523> wow, I haven't logread for months
20:03:47 <ais523> I used to logread all the time...
20:03:58 <AnMaster> ais523, no we are *for once* in agreement
20:04:09 <AnMaster> which is extremely unlikely relly
20:04:39 <ais523> oerjan: what are you disagreeing about, then?
20:04:44 <ais523> I could do with some context, really
20:04:55 <AnMaster> <tusho> oh and drutil is named as such because it uses the DiscRecording framework to interact with the drive
20:04:55 <AnMaster> <tusho> Common verbs include burn, erase, eject, help, info, list,
20:04:55 <AnMaster> <tusho> Info, status and tray are now verbs.
20:04:59 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> tusho, also verbs: "subchannel" "version" "cdtext"
20:05:18 <oerjan> that's such a load of trash!
20:06:25 <AnMaster> Common verbs include burn, erase, eject, help, info, list, status, and tray.
20:06:25 <AnMaster> The rest of the verbs are: bulkerase, cdtext, discinfo, dumpiso, dumpudf, filename, getconfig, poll, subchannel, trackinfo, and version.
20:06:40 <ais523> tusho: in INTERCAL "NEXT" is a verb
20:06:45 <AnMaster> obviously there are no other verbs
20:06:46 <ais523> people talk about "NEXTING" and so on
20:06:54 <ais523> this caused me issues translating it into Latin, though
20:07:17 <AnMaster> the Apple made man page (as opposed to "a self made man [page]") states so
20:07:48 <oerjan> so what's NEXT in latin?
20:08:35 <ais523> which I formed into an infinitive as DEINDERE
20:08:41 <ais523> and from there the gerundive as DEINDENDUM
20:08:51 <ais523> probably the best that can be done
20:11:19 <ais523> trying to remember now
20:11:47 <ais523> in INTERCAL English uses gerunds, which makes gramattical sense, but the Latin version uses gerundives probably because someone mistranslated years ago
20:12:15 <ais523> let's see... a latin gerundive like "deindendum" translates best into English as "having/needing/wanting to be nexted"
20:12:33 <oerjan> well they have some common uses iirc
20:12:46 <ais523> the Hogwarts motto is a good example
20:12:57 <ais523> "draco dormiens numquam tittilandus [est]"
20:13:07 <oerjan> ais523: um that's a different use
20:13:16 <ais523> "It is never the case that a dragon is needing to be tickled", more or less literally
20:13:24 <ais523> and so in my view it's the same case, pretty much
20:13:33 <ais523> oerjan: what do you think the difference is?
20:14:50 <oerjan> there's a different use of the gerundium, similar to -ing in english
20:15:01 <ais523> oerjan: that's just the pure gerund IIRC
20:15:08 <ais523> which would be "deindens" in this case, meaning "nexting"
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20:15:20 <ais523> that's the one that ought to be used in INTERCAL but isn't
20:15:21 <oerjan> english -ing has two different meanings
20:15:29 <ais523> "nexting" as in "the act of nexting"
20:15:34 <ais523> the noun version of -ing
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20:15:44 <ais523> that's gerund in both English and Latin
20:15:53 <ais523> Latin has gerundive, too, which doesn't correspond directly to anything in English
20:16:09 <ais523> wait, deindens isn't the gerund, is it
20:16:12 <ais523> that's the other sort of -ing
20:16:13 <oerjan> yes but iirc those have the same form in latin, with -ndum
20:16:20 <ais523> ah, that's why I was confused
20:16:30 <ais523> Hogwarts motto is definitely gerundive not gerund though
20:17:06 <ais523> "A sleeping dragon is never tickling" is nonsense semantically in English, and gramatically in Latin as participles are never used like that in Latin and a gerund would be a noun not an adjective
20:17:28 <ais523> AnMaster: "programming", referring to the noun, for instance
20:17:41 <ais523> "I am programming" is a participle, whereas "Programming is my favourite subject" is a gerund
20:17:48 <ais523> English uses -ing for two different things and confuses the issue
20:17:52 <oerjan> ais523: the hogwarts use is definitely the "needing to be" use
20:18:04 <ais523> "needing" isn't exactly the right word
20:18:14 <ais523> but it's enough to get the sense of the translation
20:18:23 <oklopol> actually, i am programming in the gerund sense.
20:18:24 <ais523> AnMaster: no, Latin is simple, English is complex
20:18:26 <AnMaster> and in Swedish we don't even have a -ing form really.
20:18:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: you have -ande, don't you?
20:18:50 <ais523> oklopol: for pretty much everyone in this channel, I'd disagree, but for you, that's perfect
20:19:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, well yes, but we don't use it for "I am programming", we use the "present tense" form then
20:19:12 <AnMaster> not sure if that is the right English name for it
20:19:12 <ais523> tusho: ping, by the way
20:19:15 <ais523> because you asked me to
20:19:31 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's the two meanings english confuses
20:19:32 <ais523> AnMaster: pretty much only English uses forms of "is" with a participle
20:19:34 <oklopol> finnish does it that way too
20:19:39 <ais523> it can be expressed in many other languages but they never use it
20:19:50 <oklopol> but both finnish and swedish have the awkwards -ing form too
20:19:53 <oerjan> no, the progressive is a third thing, really
20:20:08 <ais523> like Latin, for instance, "deindens sum" makes sense, sort of, but is so anti-idiomatic that they never used it
20:20:13 <AnMaster> argh, I don't even know the terminology for this in English
20:20:21 <AnMaster> I can manage it fine *in Swedish* I think
20:20:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: progressive is the am -ing thing
20:20:34 <oklopol> and it seems ais523 has generalized my point and thus owned me quite bad.
20:20:49 <oklopol> i'll go read some more math ->
20:20:51 <ais523> well, except that deindere isn't actually a verb, because INTERCAL doesn't date back to ancient Roman times
20:20:55 <AnMaster> well what is the "present tense" then in English?
20:21:13 <ais523> that's pretty rarely used in conversation though
20:21:18 <AnMaster> ais523, is present tense the right word?
20:21:20 <ais523> or alternatively "I am programming"
20:21:28 <AnMaster> well that is what we would use instead of -ing in Swedish
20:21:32 <ais523> "I am programming" would be the most common way to do it, that's the progressive active
20:21:42 <ais523> "I program" would be most commonly used for speech acts
20:21:47 <AnMaster> we wouldn't use our rarely used -ande form that oerjan mentioned
20:22:07 <ais523> or the start of formal complainy letters: "I write to you because I am very upset about the way you have treated my computer..."
20:22:33 <AnMaster> ais523, well we would use it informally too, our -ing form is very seldom used
20:22:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: in swedish and norwegian i guess that's used only for forming adjectives, not as a part of verb tenses
20:22:48 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, as I said English is unusual in this respect
20:22:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah yes that is a use for it
20:22:57 <ais523> confuses foreigners quite a lot until they get used to it
20:23:12 <oklopol> ithkuil uses both quite a lot
20:23:39 <ais523> AnMaster: anyway, the gerundive is pretty useful, it's annoying not having it in English, it's sort of the opposite of the participle
20:24:07 <oklopol> AnMaster: itkuil is a conlang
20:24:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: a conlang i presume
20:24:11 <ais523> "I am programming", in English, but "Feather is correct-to-program", in Latin literally translated to English
20:24:16 <AnMaster> also I don't think we have gerundive in Swdish
20:24:19 <ais523> AnMaster: a participle is an adjective made from a verb
20:24:20 <oklopol> one with a reputation of being so hard there's no use trying to learn it
20:24:48 <ais523> strangely using them in English is non-idiomatic
20:24:52 <oklopol> it's hard in that you need to master all of its aspects before being able to say the simplest thing
20:24:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think we use the infinitive for the other -ing use
20:25:16 <ais523> "The running policeman shouted at the burglar" is about the closest I can get to an idiomatic uses of a participle
20:25:24 <ais523> which isn't part of a verb phrase like "I am running"
20:25:41 <oklopol> there are no words, just kinda word bodies consisting of two consonants; you create words by inserting the details of how you want to use those bodies to make the actual objects
20:25:47 <ais523> that's a present active participle, Latin has past passive participles and sometimes past active participles too
20:25:58 <oerjan> (mind you not _everything_ is the same in Norwegian and Swedish. they use -st passive much more than us i think)
20:26:17 <oklopol> for instance sea, ocean, lake, river, rain and such would probably just be the "water" word body, with a lot of infliction
20:26:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, I can think stuff like "Programmerandets skönhet" would be plausible but sound rather strange
20:26:31 <oklopol> everyone should learn it, hkuil, i mean
20:26:36 <AnMaster> rather I would use "skönheten i programmering" or something like that
20:26:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: heh that wouldn't even be possible in norwegian, another difference
20:27:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, err the noun you mean?
20:27:41 <oerjan> -ende is purely present participle, and also completely uninflectable
20:27:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, also doesn't Norwegian come in two flavours?
20:28:13 <oerjan> well yeah it would -ande in Nynorsk
20:28:16 <AnMaster> not sure what the real difference is
20:28:29 <oerjan> Bokml is the most common
20:28:38 <ais523> bokmal is the one that non-Norwegians come across most often
20:28:48 <oerjan> in fact Nynorsk is probably closer to swedish on this point
20:29:07 <ais523> at least, I've heard of them both but never seen Nynorsk in a language list but Bokmal crops up all the time
20:29:35 <oerjan> ais523: its abbreviation is nn iirc
20:29:52 <ais523> nb for bokmal, they changed it from no pretty recently IIRC
20:30:01 <ais523> nn is presumably nynorsk
20:30:11 <oerjan> and you _do_ sometimes see it in wikipedia's left panel
20:31:06 <ais523> AnMaster: why are there both American and British English?
20:31:17 <AnMaster> tusho, how do you set the "package" property on a directory in OS X using command line
20:31:52 <AnMaster> ais523, because there are two different countries, and until the last 100 years or so travel between them was not something you did easily
20:32:06 <AnMaster> so they took separate paths in the "evolution" of the language
20:32:22 <ais523> well, I can imagine the same happening to two dialects of Norwegian until they became two different languages
20:32:31 <AnMaster> but Norway is one rather small country
20:32:50 <oerjan> norway was under denmark.
20:32:54 <AnMaster> ais523, Nynorsk literally means "New Norse"
20:33:35 <oerjan> until then, the official language in norway was danish. obviously we wanted to change that.
20:33:49 <oklopol> AnMaster: new means absolutely nothing in a name.
20:33:49 <AnMaster> but what was wrong with Bokmål?
20:34:06 <oklopol> except that the thing was new when it was born... which is true of quite a lot of things.
20:34:28 <oerjan> bokml was created by gradually norwegianizing the danish spoken in the capital and cities
20:34:44 <oerjan> an upper class dialect
20:34:52 <oerjan> nynorsk on the other hand
20:35:05 -!- ihope has quit (Connection timed out).
20:35:43 <oerjan> was created by a linguist (Ivar Aasen) collecting samples from various norwegian dialects, and creating a new written language out of it (with some norse inspiration too, i think)
20:35:45 <ais523> AnMaster: yes. Even worse was Microsoft advertising "new NT technology" in one of their adverts, which is doubly redundant
20:36:27 <oerjan> thus in the beginning Nynorsk was more obviously "Norwegian" i guess.
20:36:49 <oerjan> while Bokml had the support of the upper classes
20:37:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, yet Bokmål (Book language???????) "won"?
20:37:41 <oerjan> nynorsk grew quickly, and somewhere around 1950 was used in about 50% of municipalities i think
20:37:58 <oerjan> then, came television.
20:38:22 <ais523> well I know that when television came in the UK the BBC managed to basically standardise English by themselves
20:38:27 <ais523> presumably something similar happened in Norway
20:38:35 <oerjan> mostly sent from Oslo, where the language was bokml-like
20:38:45 <oerjan> that's what i think happened in norway too
20:39:26 <AnMaster> why didn't Radio have this effect?
20:39:29 <oerjan> television is required to have a part Nynorsk, but only 25%, and they apparently cheat by including actual dialects in it, or they did
20:39:38 <oerjan> well maybe radio did too
20:39:59 <oerjan> also i am telling this from somewhat vague impression
20:40:24 <oerjan> not to mention (or i just did) the Samnorsk disaster of that age
20:40:59 <oerjan> they attempted to _merge_ nynorsk and bokml, by using only the common forms
20:41:16 <oerjan> the result was .. ugly, from both points of view
20:42:51 <oerjan> there were reports of parents correcting their children's school books :D
20:42:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, also what do you mean with including "actual dialects"
20:43:38 <oerjan> well bokml and nynorsk are both in principle written forms. this does not prevent them from having somewhat standardized pronunciation
20:44:00 <oerjan> which is used by official newscasters and such
20:44:20 <oerjan> (also, some people speak natively quite close to bokml, and maybe a few to nynorsk)
20:44:44 <ais523> this is a great channel, where else could I get up-to-the minute interesting information about Norwegian dialects that actually developed from something ontopic?
20:45:28 <oerjan> but in norway, spoken dialects have an unusually high prestige, and so many people _don't_ standardize when they speak
20:45:36 <oerjan> (I don't, for example)
20:45:59 <oerjan> this developed from the 60's or so, i think
20:46:44 <oerjan> and the TV channels included those that did this in their "Nynorsk" quota, for a while
20:47:00 <oerjan> (well there was just one channel really until around 1980)
20:47:17 <oerjan> which meant nynorsk itself was marginalized even further
20:47:18 <oklopol> isn't mål goal in both swedish and norwegian
20:48:01 <oerjan> not sure if there's any relation between the meanings
20:49:03 <oerjan> i think maybe it also means "paint" in swedish? (norw. "mal")
20:49:22 <oerjan> actually that's nynorsk too
20:50:07 <ais523> heh, in Latin "latus" means both "having been carried" and "wide", you can get all sorts of weird combinations like that
20:51:16 <oerjan> ferre, tuli, latus. that's one weird verb.
20:51:53 <ais523> at least the "ferro" and "ferre" forms almost form a pattern
20:52:23 <ais523> although to fit with other verbs it should really be ferrere not ferre
20:53:17 <oklopol> how well do you ppl know latin?
20:53:48 * oerjan read a grammar 20 years ago. impressive memory, really.
20:54:00 <oerjan> i mean even i am impressed
20:54:18 <oklopol> i remember things from 20 years back too
20:54:19 <oerjan> few actual words though
20:54:44 <ais523> grammar sticks in your mind, vocab I've forgotten most of really
20:55:03 <ais523> although English is sufficiently based on Latin that most Latin words correspond to some English word
20:55:05 <oerjan> ais523: more like ferere, except dropping the middle -e- all over the place iirc
20:55:07 <ais523> just not normally the most common one
20:55:09 <oklopol> it was a few weeks after conception, i was checking out the wall of the uterus
20:55:46 <ais523> also a baby's vision is in black and white for the first few days
20:55:55 <ais523> the rods are ready immediately but the cones take some time
20:56:06 <oklopol> i've had the same experience with grammar, i can imagine being able to perfectly learn a language in a few weeks, apart from the vocab
20:56:06 <oerjan> ais523: [citation needed] :D
20:56:26 <ais523> oerjan: this is me remembering it from somewhere, not sure where, so not sure if it was a reliable source or not
20:56:45 <ais523> there are lots of random data I remember from years back, most of which are true by chance but many of which are likely complete nonsense, or urban legends
20:56:53 <ais523> so take that with 0.294 of a pinch of salt
20:57:07 <oerjan> oklopol: maybe that's something we esolangers have in common
20:57:11 <oklopol> is that a volume unit joke, ais?
20:58:01 <ais523> oklopol: yes, also I'm poking fun at the whole pinch of salt metaphor
20:58:12 <oklopol> well usually i can just take a few pages of data from the grammar book, and summarize them in a more general rule
20:58:27 <oklopol> and since these are usually pretty simple concepts, it's not like you can forget them
20:58:41 <ais523> Latin grammar is pretty regular, except when it isn't
20:58:47 <ais523> but lots more regular than English, anyway
20:59:05 <ais523> apparently Hungarian has an even more regular grammar, but I would probably never be bothered to learn the vocab
20:59:14 <oklopol> english has no grammar! it just has sentences, and you have to memorize them
20:59:34 * ais523 laughs out loud in real life
20:59:37 <oklopol> try lojban, it's fun and nice :-)
20:59:42 <ais523> luckily there's nobody to hear me and throw me out this time
20:59:52 <ais523> like there often is when people in #esoteric make me laugh a lot
21:00:07 <oklopol> have you been thrown out? :P
21:00:52 <ais523> not quite, although I got a warning once
21:01:02 <ais523> and some funny looks more than once
21:01:45 <ais523> at the moment though I'm on my own in an empty lab
21:01:51 <oklopol> we have a pretty fun course at the uni, the project is to code a texas hold'em ai, and there's a tournament at the end of the period
21:01:51 <ais523> even have music blaring as nobody else is here
21:02:06 <ais523> and all the lights in the building have turned themselves off due to nobody being around
21:02:11 <ais523> apart from the ones in here
21:02:17 <oerjan> oklopol: are there money prices? :D
21:02:41 <oklopol> sadly no, and since i don't think the actual playing part is part of the grade, many will just make a randomizing ai
21:03:19 <oklopol> it's actually about distributed computing, basically the grade is for getting java to connect to the server and to coordinate the ai threads :)
21:03:39 <oklopol> you have multiple ai's that can cheat by reading each other's data
21:03:51 <oklopol> so it's really strategically quite different from normal texas hold'em
21:04:11 <oklopol> not that it matters of course, since i doubt i'll need anything that sophisticated to beat everyone to the ground
21:04:26 <oklopol> oerjan: not everyone's data
21:04:48 <oklopol> you have a few agents, the opponents have a few agents, and your agents are kinda allies.
21:05:48 <oklopol> this was just a warning, as in 1.5 months i shall disconnect from irc forever in case i lose
21:06:10 <oklopol> or not, but you know, i'll change my nick to okloser or something, and cry for a few days
21:06:54 <oerjan> hah you're just an okloposer
21:11:39 <ais523> oklopol: your multithreaded networked Java assignment is a lot more interesting than ours
21:11:50 <ais523> I had to create a multiplayer networked Snakes and Ladders game
21:11:56 <ais523> with a server and any number of clients connecting to it
21:12:18 <ais523> it's probably one of the most pointless projects ever, given that Snakes and Ladders has no inputs from the user so all players could do was click a button whenever it was their turn
21:12:45 <oklopol> yeah, snakes and latters make no sense
21:12:56 <oklopol> but we actually implement it on another course.
21:13:03 <oklopol> but that's more about the gui
21:13:04 <ais523> anyway, I overengineered it in protest
21:13:23 <oklopol> i had to make a poker hand class for one of the introductory courses
21:13:37 <ais523> server automatically quitting at the right moment, handling disconnections and players quitting gracefully, could make multiple attempts to connect if you screwed up the parameters first time, and so on
21:13:42 <oklopol> so i made a full-blown poker game
21:13:43 * ais523 often overengineers things in protest
21:14:10 <oklopol> of course it was not that complicated, but as what i was supposed to do was basically a 2-tuple, it was something.
21:14:18 <fizzie> I just write things in brainfuck in protest.
21:14:34 <ais523> oerjan: we had to use a pre-provided class for the actual gameplay itself
21:14:40 <ais523> which drew snakes-and-ladders boards
21:14:46 <ais523> and just interface to it
21:15:02 <ais523> source code for it wasn't provided either, just the compiled version
21:15:17 <ais523> so I had to do a bit of reverse-engineering to get it working in my AWT program, as it was Swing itself
21:15:24 <ais523> figuring out what sort of wrappers it needed
21:15:30 <oklopol> you should've reverse-engineered what it output to the screen, and rerender it to 3d
21:15:38 <fizzie> For the Scheme "introduction to programming" course one of the weekly assignments was "draw something including some text and an ellipse" (using the provided "xdraw" library/app); a friend wrote a raytracer for that.
21:15:44 * ais523 dislikes Swing as they don't see why Java should force their GUI on users rather than the one they're used to
21:15:53 <AnMaster> ais523, for example "make a php page that implements a quiz with three 4-possible-answers questions". Pointless IMO. So I made a extensible quiz engine that can handle any amount of predefined questions with any amount of answers
21:16:16 <fizzie> (And received 0 points, I think, since the metacircular evaluator used by the automatical-grading-bot was so slow it didn't finish rendering the scene.)
21:16:32 <ais523> probably everyone in here overengineers the answers to stupid programming questions
21:16:35 <ais523> tusho: what about you?
21:16:39 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the diff between Swing and AWT?
21:16:57 <ais523> AnMaster: AWT uses the platform's widgets, Swing is almost an OS of its own
21:17:06 <ais523> with rendering the entire window, and everything
21:17:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, automated grading bot. Ugh
21:17:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, I hope he/she talked to the teacher about that!
21:17:49 <AnMaster> ais523, and well I prefer using native widgets
21:18:14 <oklopol> ais523: tusho doesn't have assignments
21:18:16 <ais523> that's why I used AWT, whereas everyone else used Swing because it was easier to interface with the teacher's code and what I was taught
21:18:18 <AnMaster> ais523, though arguably, on Linux "native" widgets aren't well defined
21:18:29 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's the "introduction to programming" course with gazillion students, and with N weekly programming assigments I don't think the department has the resources to manually grade them; at least the final "programming project" part was looked at by a human.
21:18:31 <AnMaster> ais523, I'd argue on my desktop that happens to be KDE
21:18:35 * ais523 remembers another teacher, where we both spent most of the lessons complaining about how stupid the syllabus was
21:18:49 <ais523> AnMaster: well native is whatever AWT uses on your system, from Java's point of view
21:18:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, well didn't he/she complain about that specific issue to the teacher
21:19:15 <ais523> fizzie: complaining about bugs in the grading system is worthwhile IMO, even if autograders are fine normally
21:19:43 <ais523> AnMaster: the set of knowledge that a university or school course is meant to teach
21:20:07 <ais523> in this case, it was how to write ELIZA-alikes and expert systems using POP11
21:20:28 <fizzie> Well, it's more of a "feature" that it doesn't get stuck in infinite loops; I think it was the only "sensible" program that went over the execution time limit. Don't know whether he complained or not, it might not have made any difference in the course grade. I'm sure he at least talked about it with the teacher.
21:20:28 <ais523> and POP11 is a pretty uninteresting and annoying-to-use imperative language
21:20:43 <AnMaster> ais523, or "print all primes between 0 and 100 using php" -> full blown Sieve of Atkins(!) in PHP, took about a day.
21:21:06 <ais523> it had rudimentary pattern matching, and did loops with recursion, and that's about it for its interesting features
21:21:11 <AnMaster> ais523, not auto grading, the teacher did give me a strange look the lesson after, but didn't comment on it
21:21:12 <fizzie> Oh, and he also wrote a patch to the "xdraw" drawing thing, because that was the major reason the raytracer was so slow. The silly thing had a putpixel performance that was (at least) O(n) where n is the amount of colors used in the image.
21:21:40 <ais523> AnMaster: you could have done that without even a <? involved anywhere, probably would have been shorter too
21:21:46 <ais523> but then that's the -F method of programming
21:22:04 <AnMaster> ais523, hah well I bet the teacher wouldn't have liked that
21:22:21 <ais523> it's a valid solution, though, arguably even the best one if you're going for efficiency
21:22:32 <ais523> change 100 to 10000 and the problem gets more interesting
21:22:41 <AnMaster> ais523, I suspect the teacher expected either "loop, test if prime, print" or sieve of Eratosthenes
21:23:23 <AnMaster> was an introductionary(sp?) course
21:23:45 <ais523> AnMaster: indroductory
21:24:40 <ais523> in the part of the word that was obvious, rather than the confusing part
21:25:07 <ais523> you left the tion in, it disappears in the inflected word in this case
21:25:24 <AnMaster> ah well, that is one part I dislike in English
21:26:11 <oklopol> as i said, no exceptions, no rules, just sentences :)
21:26:45 <ais523> oklopol: but that isn't even a sentence...
21:32:31 <AnMaster> Seeds random number generation with default (fixed) values in the process dictionary, and returns the old state.
21:32:50 <AnMaster> (there is a seed(A, B, C) too, that you can use if you want something random)
21:33:07 <AnMaster> Like {A1,A2,A3} = now(), random:seed(A1, A2, A3)
21:34:40 <tusho> Who pinged me, why
21:35:09 <ais523> tusho: I pinged you because you asked em to
21:35:36 <ais523> AnMaster: a typo, I fixed it on the next line
21:35:49 <ais523> I could also have fixed it with sub m () {"me";}
21:35:51 <AnMaster> ais523, hey use a different separator whe you use sed on an existing sed expression!
21:36:02 <ais523> but that would have been a lot more obscure
21:36:06 <ais523> also my corrections are in Perl
21:36:14 <tusho> ais523 knows, he wrote it
21:36:20 <ais523> if you've seen how complicated my regex corrections get sometimes you'd know why
21:36:38 <tusho> "The sky is green" "No it's not, it's blue" "Yes it is" "No it's not" "Yes it's green" "No, it is most definitely blue"
21:37:02 <AnMaster> tusho, it[who?] has been proved that if there are only two people in Finland, and 5 of them are in #esoteric then ais523's corrections are in sed not perl
21:37:12 <tusho> mine is based on logic
21:37:19 <tusho> plus darwin (the pope) agrees with me
21:37:21 <ais523> AnMaster: luckily there are more than 2 people in finland
21:37:27 <ais523> also your argument is correct but irrelevant
21:37:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well tusho said there were only two
21:37:47 <tusho> there are only two
21:37:49 <tusho> and six or so are in here
21:38:01 <tusho> i can link you to the logs with my elaborate proof
21:38:04 -!- ais523 has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | there are only two people in Finland, and 5 of them are in #esoteric.
21:38:08 <AnMaster> tusho, well that still holds true, thanks to the extended hypothesis
21:38:31 <tusho> I can link you to the proof of that too
21:39:17 <tusho> Also, 1 darwin = 10 darwins
21:39:25 <tusho> but, popes are antidarwins
21:39:29 <tusho> the pope is darwin
21:39:36 <tusho> that gets confusing when you realise that the pope was darwin to start with
21:39:45 <tusho> because darwin cannot doubt himself.
21:39:52 <tusho> therefore, we must all hail darwin, defeater of human preconceptions
21:39:53 <AnMaster> only then does 1 darwin = 10 darwin hold true
21:40:04 <tusho> it's okay, because 1 darwin = 10 darwin holds only in africa
21:40:07 <tusho> it's african mathematicis
21:40:10 <Slereah_> What the fuck are you people talking about
21:40:17 <tusho> his Supreme Popeity
21:40:40 <tusho> this is actually just an elaborate collection of injokes that actually makes sense in its own closed world with warped logic, btw
21:40:51 <AnMaster> (now we just need Slereah_ to agree with me to form a cycle)
21:41:19 <tusho> therefore you agreed with me
21:41:29 <ais523> tusho: actually Darwin is an operating system
21:41:31 <tusho> the statement was: "Slereah_ should eat his hat and post pictures on the internet"
21:41:36 <tusho> ais523: no, that ismerely a manifestation
21:41:41 <tusho> of the darwin time cube
21:41:50 <tusho> do not let the popes pope drone mobiles from sheffield take you away
21:42:00 <tusho> you know they are coming when...you hear... the... sound.....
21:42:07 <AnMaster> ais523, I think I'm going to put tusho on ignore now, and I hope so are you
21:42:34 <tusho> #esoteric is a serious business zone!
21:42:44 <ais523> AnMaster: before I came here I used to read Usenet a lot, although I never killfiled anyone I got quite adept at ignoring them mentally
21:42:45 <tusho> Only 100% serious enterprise business - like the cfunge committee - can be discussed here.
21:42:47 <fizzie> Curiously in Discordianism, according to their scripture (such as it is), everyone is a Pope; so Darwin would've been one too.
21:42:49 <tusho> It is of great importance.
21:42:58 <tusho> fizzie: Discordianism is the pope
21:43:19 <tusho> ais523: am I on mental ignore
21:43:35 <tusho> also AnMaster still has not figured out a way to get his computer to search the web for information, is ee
21:43:35 <ais523> tusho: depends on what you say
21:43:43 <ais523> AnMaster: killfiling on Usenet is like /ignore on IRC
21:43:47 <tusho> ais523: time cube educated stupid darwin pope am i on mental ignore
21:43:54 <ais523> although good newsreaders let you killfile threads as well as people
21:44:08 <ais523> the IRC equivalent is /part, I think...
21:44:49 <fizzie> That's more like unsubscribing.
21:45:27 <fizzie> We could all add a conversation identifier prefix to our messages so it would be possible to ignore "threads".
21:47:03 <tusho> AnMaster: why not?
21:47:08 <tusho> just have multiple convo tags
21:47:11 <AnMaster> on linux how do you mount one partition on a cd when the cd got several? like a hfs one and an iso one
21:47:21 <tusho> like, timecube and linux
21:47:25 <AnMaster> oh and tusho is on mental ignore
21:47:30 <tusho> timecube linux @ AnMaster: You educate stupid!
21:47:46 <ais523> AnMaster: do the partitions have separate filenames?
21:47:50 <oerjan> the timecube operating system
21:47:53 <ais523> if so, it's easy, just use the mount command by hand
21:48:01 <AnMaster> /dev/sr0: Apple Partition data block size: 512, first type: Apple_partition_map, name: Apple, number of blocks: 63, second type: Apple_Driver_ATAPI, name: Macintosh, number of blocks: 4, third type: Apple_Free, name: , number of blocks: 0,
21:48:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | see ed murphy's reply.
21:48:28 <AnMaster> I got no idea how to look at the separate partitions of it
21:48:44 <oerjan> hm, can we use the timecube to implement twoducks?
21:48:51 <AnMaster> ais523, //dev/sr0 is my dvd reader btw
21:48:55 <tusho> oerjan: twoducks is HARMONIOUS TIME CUBE POPE
21:49:05 <ais523> that would be low-level stuff, I'm not too sure how it works but there may be some way to mknod a block-special-device for that partition
21:50:04 <oerjan> i guess i should read some timecube stuff to find out. or maybe i should try to preserve the last vestiges of sanity.
21:50:50 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, not sure if it isn't working, I don't know that much about that sort of thing
21:50:57 <oerjan> Slereah_: to answer that, you need a space time pair of ducks
21:51:03 <ais523> luckily there are lots of other Linux users on IRC, some of them will probably know
21:51:24 <oerjan> Slereah_: see Triangle and Robert
21:51:25 <fizzie> You also need a kernel with CONFIG_MAC_PARTITION=y to get those partition tables read.
21:52:37 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure about hfs/iso hybrid-CDs.
21:55:00 <AnMaster> anyway I asked in #linux, but issue is no one ever responds there (though a few respond to the newbie questions all the time, none responds to advanced ones)
21:58:29 <fizzie> I just remember that mkisofs/genisoimage can do iso/hfs hybrids, don't know about mounting. Although if you yourself can read the relevant formats, usually you can mount just about anything with -o loop=/dev/sr0,offset=magic-number-to-start-of-partition.
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21:59:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm I don't know the offsets
21:59:40 <tusho> AnMaster: why do you always bother me about your os x troubles
21:59:53 <AnMaster> tusho, well I didn't know that
22:00:02 <tusho> i guess you're deaf
22:00:08 <tusho> since he's talked about running cfunge on os x
22:00:13 <tusho> and misc. mentions of os x
22:00:17 <tusho> and also answered your os x qs before
22:00:22 <AnMaster> yes but I thought that was some temp thing
22:01:12 <GregorR> No Man or God exists as One, for _Cubic fish of Opposites_, divide the Egg into 4 Opposing Quadrants.
22:02:51 <fizzie> I have a iBook laptop that just seems to work better with OS X. And actually I'm currently writing this using it, since my main desktop managed to get some mysterious hardware issues during the move to this new apartment.
22:08:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, I have an really old ibook. first model of ibook. PPC, 3.2 GB harddrive
22:08:47 <AnMaster> though extended with another 32 MB module to 64 MB
22:10:39 <GregorR> oerjan: Good ol' Time Cube gave me that one :P
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22:11:47 <AnMaster> or is someone actually that mad?
22:12:23 <oerjan> (1) _someone_ is actually that mad, for whatever value of mad (2) don't know about time cube
22:12:49 <tusho> time cube is not a joke, no
22:12:55 <tusho> gene ray is just a deranged old man with schizophrenia
22:13:10 <tusho> i did quite a bit of idle research in to it
22:13:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: for whatever value of mad, there is always someone that mad
22:14:15 <GregorR> AnMaster: Time Cube is a joke to everyone except Gene Ray :P
22:14:45 <tusho> but yeah gene ray is quite thoroughly mentally ill
22:14:51 <tusho> and i doubt anything can really be done for him
22:15:02 <tusho> best thing to do: laugh heartily
22:15:15 <oerjan> theory: by an amazing coincidence, everything gene ray says is actually perfectly correct, but it will take humanity millennia to discover this
22:15:59 <AnMaster> ftp://ftp.mklinux.apple.com/pub/Other_Tools/
22:16:02 <tusho> http://www.timecube.com/TheWisestHuman_newimg_GeneRayCube.jpg
22:16:06 <tusho> ^ deranged old man.
22:16:38 <AnMaster> Installed versions: 0.1-r6(23.15.49 2008-09-20)
22:16:38 <AnMaster> Homepage: ftp://ftp.mklinux.apple.com/pub/Other_Tools/
22:16:38 <AnMaster> Description: Mac/PowerMac disk partitioning utility
22:16:54 <tusho> AnMaster: this is our problem and we can fix it, certainly
22:17:02 <tusho> however.... that is OLd by the looks of it
22:17:36 <AnMaster> probably before you were born tusho
22:18:37 <tusho> time cube was founded in 1997
22:18:41 <tusho> coincidence? I think not.
22:19:10 <oerjan> a carefully-planned coincidence
22:21:04 <tusho> oerjan: i seem to recall you believe in syncronicity :P
22:21:54 <AnMaster> use mac-fdisk on dvd to get offsets
22:22:01 <AnMaster> then, mount with offset parameter
22:23:35 <oerjan> tusho: on my better days
22:23:59 <tusho> oerjan: clearly it is synchronicity when your better days are
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22:24:15 -!- jix has joined.
22:24:17 <oerjan> grammar your excellent is
22:25:03 <oerjan> someone pointed out there was no International like Yoda speak Day
22:25:38 <oerjan> (in IWC's ITLA Pirate D thread, i think)
22:26:27 <tusho> a website need we make just
22:26:40 <ais523> actually, in Latin the Yoda word order was one of the most commonly-used
22:26:55 <oerjan> you seen my website have? clearly for me still too much work it is
22:27:09 <tusho> oerjan: then volunteer do i
22:27:14 <ais523> in Latin you could more or less randomly jumble the order of words in sentences and they would still mean the same thing if they weren't too complex
22:27:22 <ais523> but Yoda word order popular was...
22:28:07 <oerjan> maybe google absolutely sure it not already does exist to make i should do
22:28:29 <tusho> oerjan: idea good is that
22:28:58 <oerjan> http://www.talklikeyoda.com/
22:29:14 <oerjan> also a bit out of date that website is
22:29:50 <tusho> oerjan: What about an International Talk Like a ...!
22:29:57 <tusho> (Whereinst you talk like a Ninja)
22:30:15 <tusho> Slereah_: exactly.
22:30:23 <tusho> the ... is eerie silence
22:30:27 <tusho> the ! is them cutting your throat
22:30:42 <oerjan> ais523: actually i think Yoda order is OSV while Latin was fond of SOV?
22:31:06 <ais523> oerjan: Yoda order is SOV IIRC
22:31:12 <tusho> Word order free english talk am I in experiment as.
22:31:15 <ais523> but yes, Latin is definitely SOV by default
22:31:17 <oerjan> OS being rare but not unknown in human languages (Malagasy e.g.)
22:31:20 <tusho> Understand you can me?
22:31:41 <ais523> although adjectives make things more interesting as in Latin they needn't be attached to the noun they affect
22:31:48 <tusho> Slereah_: Confusing that is too.
22:31:56 <tusho> Like this let us talk
22:32:02 <oerjan> ais523: no, definitely OSV or close, _it_ _is_
22:32:17 <ais523> but then, "it is" is one word in Latin
22:32:25 <ais523> so when the subject's a pronoun, Latin is OSV
22:33:59 <ais523> Monocles sounds like a Greek name, if you pronounce it Mono-cles
22:34:04 <oerjan> Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres
22:34:21 <ais523> oerjan: that's hardly typical word order, it's poetic word order
22:34:26 <ais523> where you anagram the sentence to make it scan well
22:34:39 <oerjan> yeah but it separates the adjective from the noun
22:34:40 <tusho> Hey guys let's talk in RPN english
22:34:43 <tusho> and pack everything into one sentence
22:34:48 <tusho> so we get tons of nouns and adjectives such
22:34:50 <tusho> and it's confusing
22:34:52 <tusho> until the verbs at the end
22:35:14 <tusho> i that idea good is think
22:36:26 <tusho> I idea good all you think not see
22:36:28 <oerjan> should prepositions be postponed?
22:36:54 <tusho> it experiment with perhaps
22:37:11 <tusho> way optimal the to find
22:38:14 <oerjan> brain almost hard grammar thinking quota out of is
22:39:03 <tusho> I I that got think
22:39:42 <tusho> I game the lost just
22:40:53 <tusho> http://i27.tinypic.com/zxts7d.gif this image, which I've already forgotten where it was posted due to the annoyance of losing it but I think it was wikipedia or a forum or something
22:41:55 <tusho> bah, i forgot about the rpn
22:42:09 <tusho> that would have been epic in rpn
22:42:35 * ais523 reads http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/agora-horoscope/ again
22:43:11 <AnMaster> what exactly the rules for yoda grammar are?
22:43:28 <tusho> AnMaster: the force you must use
22:45:27 <oerjan> http://www.talklikeyoda.com/howto/
22:45:52 <oerjan> although there was an essay linked to that i just gave up on
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23:14:08 <oklopol> tusho: I idea good all you think not see <<< could someone parse this for me
23:14:41 <tusho> I ((idea good) (all you) think not) see
23:14:48 <tusho> it should be (you all), possibly
23:15:02 <tusho> in regular english:
23:15:15 <tusho> I see you all think not good idea
23:16:33 <oklopol> with you all it's pretty sensible yeah
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