00:14:36 -!- tusho has quit. 01:24:22 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 01:26:00 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:27:33 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 01:35:45 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 02:02:05 -!- HanDongSeong has joined. 02:10:40 -!- ihope has joined. 02:12:33 I want to come up with a very simple set of Thue rules that are... Thue-complete. 02:13:31 So that any Thue program can be converted into a Thue subprogram under these rules that runs with just as much nondeterminism, just as quickly. 02:15:13 And after doing that, I want to engineer bacteria that rewrite strands of nucleic acid according to those rules. 02:19:02 Me on a test: "Client, server, and circuit are NOT the three hardware components of a network, because client and server are properties of the software, not hardware. However, that was probably the anticipated response" 02:42:57 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:48:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | afk eating cake and drinking coffe. 04:46:20 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 04:46:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:02:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:14:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:25:14 -!- HanDongSeong has quit ("염장"). 06:01:18 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:34:39 -!- puzzlet_ has changed nick to puzzlet. 06:44:16 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:58:19 -!- kar8ng1 has joined. 07:00:34 -!- fizzie has joined. 07:02:28 -!- fungot has joined. 07:07:19 -!- CO2Games has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:59:45 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 09:48:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | how would the code for C-INTERCAL be compiled on that? you would need to convert to tri-graphs right?. 09:58:44 honestly speaking i don't get the topic 10:17:51 Trigraphs are a relatively rare C feature to cope with systems whose character sets do not include the characters C needs. For example you can write "??/" to get a "\", so you can use "??/n" as a newline in a string constant. 10:19:26 GCC does those when called with -trigraphs or -std=c. 10:19:46 So I assume the topic is about some system with a limited character set, or something. 10:20:38 An EBCDIC system, it seems. Not unsurprising. 10:21:31 -!- kar8ng1 has quit ("Leaving."). 10:22:58 I remember there being an amusing snippet about trigraphs in the GCC documentation, but can't seem to find it now. 10:24:23 -!- fungot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:45:38 -!- Mony has joined. 10:46:12 plop 11:02:37 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("So, how much do you love noodles?"). 11:37:51 -!- ihope has joined. 12:26:47 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:27:04 -!- kar8ng1 has joined. 12:27:26 -!- kar8ng1 has left (?). 12:29:09 -!- kar8ng1 has joined. 12:32:53 -!- kar8ng1 has left (?). 12:39:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:39:46 * ais523 likes the topic 13:03:37 -!- tusho has joined. 13:03:58 hi ais523 13:04:09 hi tusho 13:04:20 yeah, i absolutely won that one 13:04:26 well, yes 13:04:36 as I didn't start typing until after you'd finished 13:04:36 joined 2008-09-23 13:03:37 +0100 13:04:39 sent message two seconds later 13:13:16 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:17:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:18:09 ais523, hm I think I managed to implement the select operator in erlang too 13:18:22 got some tests? the ones I tried seem to work 13:18:57 hmm, I don't have tests offhand but I can just try putting some random big numbers into intercalc 13:20:38 '#12345$#12345'~#58990 is CXIII (or 113) 13:20:46 a random test case I used on INTERCAL 13:20:49 *INTERCALC 13:21:19 ais523, um that would be select(mingle(12345, 12345), 58990) ? 13:21:34 yes 13:21:44 7> intercal:select(intercal:mingle(12345, 12345), 58990). 13:21:44 807 13:21:45 hm 13:21:47 no 13:21:54 5> io:format("~.2B~n", [intercal:select(2#11100, 2#10101)]). 13:21:54 110 13:22:00 but that is correct I think? 13:22:11 yes, that's correct 13:22:22 yet I get 807 for your instead of 113 13:22:26 hmm... try with a number more than 16 bits long 13:22:42 1> intercal:mingle(12345, 12345). 13:22:42 1032975 13:22:46 right? 13:22:55 something really simple like intercal:select(2#11001100110011001100, 2#1010101010101010101010) 13:23:04 AnMaster: let me check, I calculated it but the answer came out in Roman numerals 13:23:47 25165122525 is the actual answer from the mingle 13:23:54 ais523, wtf :/ 13:24:00 9> io:format("~.2B~n", [intercal:select(2#11001100110011001100, 2#1010101010101010101010)]). 13:24:00 1010101010 13:24:06 that select looks right 13:24:11 so my guess is it's mingle playing up again 13:24:27 ais523, btw select uses big endian, didn't work otherwise 13:24:42 there should just be some option to use maths-endian 13:25:05 ais523, hm? There is native too 13:25:12 anyway the mingle: 13:25:14 10> io:format("~.2B~n", [intercal:mingle(12345, 12345)]). 13:25:14 11111100001100001111 13:25:25 what's 12345 in binary? 13:25:38 11> io:format("~.2B~n", [12345]). 13:25:38 11000000111001 13:25:53 ok, that mingle's wrong 13:26:10 and I'm having problems figuring out wtf it's done to the bit order 13:26:19 all your versions of mingle seem to output the right bits in the wrong order 13:26:38 ais523, it is the same one that we thought worked yesterday 13:26:44 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:26:45 yes 13:26:48 -!- moozilla has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:26:53 -!- oklofok has joined. 13:27:15 ais523, you said it should be 25165122525? 13:27:26 yes 13:27:28 10111011011111101010100101111011101 13:27:33 that isn't even close 13:27:34 maybe I typoed 13:27:38 Roman numerals are hard to read 13:27:48 and the answer should definitely have 1s and 0s in pairs 13:28:15 -!- moozilla has joined. 13:28:37 \C\C\L\IdclxiiCCLXXV in CLC-INTERCAL format 13:28:46 ais523, I can't work that out 13:28:48 C-INTERCAL format requires a fixed-width font and is two lines high 13:28:51 you could use some spread function as an intermediate, that just intersperses 0 between all bits 13:29:03 I'll use tty.i and a debugger, at least that will get the output in decimal 13:29:37 and then mingle(x,y) = 2*spread(x) + spread(y) 13:29:52 C1: Expression is 0xf000fc3 13:29:55 ok, that was hex 13:30:02 oerjan: that's what C-INTERCAL does 13:30:04 where 2* and + could easily be done with bit operations instead 13:30:07 except it does it with bit operations 13:30:13 ais523, which is 1111000000000000111111000011 13:30:18 and different 13:30:25 yes, that last answer is the right one I think 13:30:27 *closer* to mine but not that close 13:30:34 11111100001100001111 13:30:38 was my result 13:30:47 251662275 in decimal 13:30:57 ah, I know how I misread it 13:31:04 accidentally read lx as 51 rather than 6 13:31:16 and likewise LXX as 52 rather than 7 13:31:22 wow, my Roman Numerals have got rusty... 13:31:22 my mingle gives 1032975 not 251662275 13:31:33 AnMaster: it's outputting the bits in the wrong order 13:31:41 ais523, yes... 13:31:54 ais523, but wrong order *how* this time? 13:31:56 ais523: LX is 60, LXX is 70 13:32:17 I don't know, it would be so much easier if the bits were separate colours so we could track them... 13:32:23 #ESOTERIC NEWS BULLETIN 13:32:23 Deewiant: yes, I know, I was referring to the span of digits 13:32:31 AIS523 RESIGNS AS MAINTAINER OF C-INTERCAL 13:32:33 AnMaster: do you have a paste for that mingle code? 13:32:34 gotcha 13:32:36 CITES "ROMAN NUMERAL PROBLEMS" 13:32:37 * ais523 imagines beepy music in the background 13:32:49 oerjan, sure it is Erlang 13:32:57 APPARENTLY ERIC S. RAYMOND, THE ORIGINAL WRITER, IS TAKING OVER 13:33:00 tusho: nah, I was working on the build system further this morning 13:33:11 IN AN UNRELATED NOTE, C-INTERCAL USAGE DROPS 70% GOING TO CLC-INTERCAL. 13:33:12 it now works with -j2 (and presumably with -jN for all N) 13:33:19 USERS CITE "ESR" PROBLEMS. 13:33:19 AnMaster: i mean a link 13:33:22 oerjan, http://rafb.net/p/lrtTEi50.html 13:33:28 also I think it works on cross-compile 13:33:30 THANK YOU FOR WATCHING. WE'LL BE BACK IN A FEW HOURS. 13:33:32 *da-da-DA-duh!* 13:33:40 I have a cross-compiler here but not an ARM processor to run the results on 13:33:40 my select is uggly yes 13:34:21 and actually I like that select 13:34:40 it could be optimised by exploiting the fact that Acc1 is always 0, though 13:34:49 ais523, ah no it isn't 13:34:54 well, numerically 0 13:35:00 but presumably its length matters? 13:35:05 ais523, problem is knowing the length yes 13:35:15 you need to know how much to extract at the end 13:35:21 ouch erlang is harder than i hoped 13:35:32 ais523, seems size() returns whole bytes only 13:35:55 a better way would maybe be incrementing a number to record number of bits 13:36:03 but I'd like to fix mingle first 13:36:33 oerjan, oh? 13:37:12 oerjan: might be just AnMaster's code... 13:37:24 oh <<>> is a kind of bit field record syntax, i guess 13:37:30 yes. 13:37:38 oerjan, it is binary/bitstring syntax 13:37:40 excuse the fact that it's obscure and impossible to read 13:37:45 :| 13:37:55 the obvious version would just be the first one you pasted, with mingle(T1, T2, <>) 13:38:03 that looks like it should work, but IIRC it didn't 13:38:12 hmm... maybe I should install Erlang to test stuff 13:38:14 a b c d e f g 13:38:14 Correct: 1111 0000 0000 0000 1111 1100 0011 13:38:14 ae f g bcd ae 13:38:14 Mine: 1111 1100 0011 0000 1111 13:38:19 that is my analysis 13:38:39 on nibble-basis I think 13:39:06 Why is "I'm curious, How many redditors listen to NPR (at least one show per day)", a self.reddit post, #1 on reddit. 13:39:13 It's not a link to anything. It's just a bunch of people answering a question. 13:39:20 Why is it #1 on a site supposed to be links to interesting stuff? 13:39:36 AnMaster: it's not nibble-basis at all, it's swapped the first 16 bits with the second 16 bits, but left-justified for some reason 13:39:49 if I pad to the right with 0s (note this is not normally a mathematically sensible operation): 13:40:02 correct: 1111 0000 0000 0000-1111 1100 0011 0000 13:40:16 yours: 1111 1100 0011 0000-1111 0000 0000 0000 13:40:23 hm 13:40:30 but why is it padding /rightwards/? 13:40:35 that changes the value of a number 13:40:45 and numbers don't intrinsically have a particular number of bits 13:40:57 endianness maybe? 13:41:05 maybe it's using some endianness on the level of bytes? 13:41:18 which conflicts with the one inside bytes 13:41:20 oerjan: it would have to be middle-endian to swap 16-bit blocks 13:41:24 and nothing is middle-endian nowadays 13:41:32 i bet erlang is 13:41:34 just for no reason 13:41:38 I think the one of the PDP computers was the most recent to do that 13:41:44 http://www.google.com/search?q=erlang%20middle-endian 13:42:05 could that :16/little-unsigned qualifier be messing things up? 13:42:12 if the default is big 13:42:17 oerjan, the default is indeed big 13:42:19 and unsigned 13:42:29 oerjan, however it didn't work at all with big before 13:42:32 * AnMaster tries again 13:42:45 NUXI 13:42:49 ah, so you put Int1 and Int2 as little-endian but the _result_ is interpreted as big 13:42:54 (the final Acc) 13:42:57 ok... now big endian 13:42:57 is my guess 13:43:02 it works for this 13:43:09 24> io:format("~.2B~n", [intercal:mingle(12345, 12345)]). 13:43:09 1111000000000000111111000011 13:43:30 ais523, doesn't make any sense though :P 13:43:48 oh wait you have :32/little-unsigned on the result pattern 13:44:00 * ais523 downloads Erlang from the Ubuntu repos 13:44:02 and the docs too 13:44:31 ais523, erl -man erlang for example for that module, for language ref http://www.erlang.org/doc/reference_manual/part_frame.html 13:45:44 according to the docs it should work even with no endianness specifier at all 13:45:45 ais523, is this correct then: 13:45:46 29> io:format("~.2B~n", [intercal:mingle(16#1234, 16#4321)]). 13:45:47 10010000011010000111000100001 13:46:01 ais523, yes it does now 13:46:05 since big is default 13:47:42 http://rafb.net/p/h1LInl74.html 13:48:13 * ais523 tries to think up a sensible way to calculate 16#1234 mingle 16#4321 13:48:28 ais523, 0x1234 0x4321 13:48:37 16# is just the base 13:48:43 yes, I know 13:48:51 all INTERCAL calculators take input in decimal though 13:48:58 so I simply used bash to convert to decimal in the end 13:48:59 well you can do each hex digit pair separately 13:49:08 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:49:15 39> 16#4321. 13:49:15 17185 13:49:15 40> 16#1234. 13:49:15 4660 13:49:25 C1: Expression is 0x120d0e21 13:49:30 ais523, or in bash: echo $(( 0x1234 )) 13:49:37 AnMaster: yes, I used the bash echo method 13:49:54 120D0E21 13:49:55 yay 13:50:58 well I think my last mingle works now 13:51:20 42> intercal:select(intercal:mingle(12345, 12345), 58990). 13:51:20 113 13:51:27 and that was your original one too 13:51:39 you could have a go at the other three INTERCAL-72 operators as well if you like, to finish the set 13:51:54 ais523, I don't really understand how they work 13:52:14 ok, using lowercase letters for bits: 13:52:14 ais523, I implemented select from http://esolangs.org/wiki/INTERCAL#Expression_syntax 13:53:06 V2#abcdefghijklmnop is <> 13:53:09 where | means bitwise or 13:53:16 and V is intercal's unary OR operator 13:53:20 well, the 16-bit version 13:53:37 they're overloaded in INTERCAL, there's both the 16-bit version and the 32-bit version, which follow the same pattern 13:53:43 hm 13:54:16 ais523, so the last bit is used to or the first bit? 13:54:25 yes 13:54:33 and placed in the topmost bit of the result 13:54:37 each bit is used exactly twice 13:54:42 topmost == last? 13:54:51 numbers don't really have first and last bits 13:54:55 topmost == most significant 13:54:58 well true 13:55:07 I'm not sure which end of the number the most significant bit is at in Erlang 13:56:17 3> <> = <<2#10000000>>. 13:56:20 4> H. 13:56:20 1 13:56:51 ais523, so p is unchanged at the end then? 13:57:06 no 13:57:19 ah wait indeed 13:57:25 you get p|a in the most significant bit and o|p in the least significant 13:57:59 this should be easy if erlang has ordinary bit operations on bitstrings 13:58:21 could use a higher order function 13:58:22 oerjan, you have bitshift and such on numbers 13:58:36 * AnMaster checks on a binary 13:58:37 i'm talking about or, and and xor 13:59:10 well exists on integers but not on full binaries 13:59:30 you could convert it into a list I guess 13:59:33 right maybe no use for bitstrings then 13:59:36 anyway it is easy enough 14:00:23 oerjan, well the bit you extract at the head of the binary is a number 14:00:34 so bxor or such would work on that 14:01:09 yay, Irregular Webcomic's presidential election is _really_ improving now 14:02:26 AnMaster: you just need to rotate, and then use an integer bit operation with the original number 14:02:39 ah, of course oerjan is an accomplished INTERCAL programmer 14:03:00 so knows what e's talking about here, yes, that's a good way to describe it 14:03:33 there is bit shift but not bit rotate 14:03:52 that is easy to do with bitstrings i presume 14:03:55 bit rotate's easy enough to implement with bitmasking and shifts 14:04:03 but with pattern-matching bitstrings it's still easier 14:05:29 oerjan, it would be rather inefficient. rotating like that. Erlang got single assignment. but the tail in the binary can still work without copies thanks to it just being a pointer into the binary. 14:05:37 rotating would for various reasons upset that 14:05:54 for more info I suggest reading http://www.erlang.org/doc/efficiency_guide/binaryhandling.html 14:05:57 oh so it's a linked list sort of thing? 14:06:08 AnMaster: pointers to single bits of memory are likely to be less efficient than copying a single 32-bit integer 14:06:11 #ESOTERIC NEWS BULLETIN: Erlang takes over a day to do a trivial task done in other languages in a few minutes even for people who don't understand it, even though it has special data structures for strings of bits and such. 14:06:12 oerjan, not a bitstring no, Erlang have Lisp style lists too 14:06:22 using [H|T] syntax 14:06:26 that efficiency guide is presumably for large binaries 14:06:38 tusho: there is a wtf here, but you've completely mistaken where it is 14:06:40 ais523, hm true for that part. 14:06:52 ais523: either erlang or AnMaster, I'm guessing 14:06:53 :p 14:06:53 well I'm not sure what oerjan meant 14:06:56 why, where is it? 14:07:09 tusho: AnMaster: pointers to single bits of memory are likely to be less efficient than copying a single 32-bit integer 14:07:22 ais523, that is true yes 14:07:30 and it's not a wtf with Erlang, it's a wtf due to generalising documentation without thinking about the edge cases 14:07:42 ais523, yes indeed 14:07:52 ais523: however - it's taken over a whole day 14:08:00 to write a function that is what, 10 lines or something now? 14:08:07 and still doesn't work? even though it's doing something really simple? 14:08:13 it doesn't really make me think well of erlang... 14:08:13 it took several months to get the C versions of the INTERCAL operators right 14:08:24 and working efficiently 14:08:29 ais523: efficiently isn't a goal here 14:08:34 OTOH, Erlang doesn't have a ternary type 14:08:35 tusho, yes it is 14:08:40 I think 14:08:41 I wrote my c one in like 5 minutes after I clarified everything 14:08:45 ais523, indeed 14:08:50 so it'll have to general-case the bases other than 2, just like C-INTERCAL does 14:10:03 ais523: so you think that it's OK for erlang to cause this much hoo-hah over implementing mingle even though it has a special bitstring type thing with pattern matching designed for stuff like this, even though I wrote a C version in 5 minutes (mostly starting doing it manually then realising I could generate it) after getting exactly what it does 14:10:40 tusho: I wrote an Erlang version (with the wrong syntax) in about 3 minutes, and could have fixed it easily 14:10:53 ok what's wrong with rot1(Int) -> <> = <, <> = <, R. if i got the syntax right 14:10:54 AnMaster wanted to use a loop for some reason, I think he's invented a bignum mingle 14:10:57 ah, so it's just more "AnMaster is terrible at erlang" 14:11:13 oerjan: that looks more or less right, any mistakes in it are due to me not knowing Erlang 14:11:31 ais523, yes it should work with a few changes for bignum 14:12:19 oerjan: what would your definition of rot13(Int) be, by the way? 14:13:01 just replace 15 and 1 by 13 and 3 or possibly the other way around 14:13:05 oerjan, and well it works for 16 bit integers sure. :) 14:13:26 oerjan: I was actually wondering how much you would redefine the function 14:13:31 to suit the change in name 14:13:58 well ints are not character strings... 14:14:06 anyway it would be rot13_16 or something, since you operate on 16 bits there 14:14:09 ;P 14:14:10 and also, i don't know erlang 14:14:15 it's not necessarily an integer, it's just called Int 14:14:18 char* Int; 14:14:20 that sort of thing 14:14:23 can the part after : be a variable? 14:14:40 ais523, strings are a list of integers. or a binary 14:14:45 both work in output routines 14:14:55 if it can then it would be easy to write a general one 14:14:56 oerjan, yes it can 14:16:30 2> "abcd" =:= [$a, $b, $c, $d]. 14:16:30 true 14:17:15 erlang doesn't have pattern guards like haskell does it? might be nice for a rot13 function 14:17:40 oerjan, it have guards 14:18:13 foo(A) when is_integer(A) and (A > 100) -> A*A. 14:18:23 (not very useful function) 14:19:18 ah, now that's neater in Prolog: foo(A,Rv) :- is_integer(A), A > 100, Rv is A*A. 14:20:07 ais523, actually you can use , there iirc, but with and it is more readable IMO 14:20:25 ; for or 14:20:29 , for and 14:20:32 Prolog uses , for and and ; for or too 14:20:37 and you can write out the words 14:20:43 they're so common though that nobody ever does 14:20:57 foo(A,Rv) if is_integer(A) and A > 100 and Rv is A*A. 14:21:04 just looks like a long run-on sentence, anyway 14:21:08 so the symbols are more usual 14:21:24 ais523, wouldn't work, iirc that will be (is_integer(A) and A) > 100 14:21:33 it does in Prolog 14:21:33 which will cause issues since true > 100 makes no sense 14:21:41 and and or have lower precedences than anything 14:22:06 actually it does 14:22:38 true is larger than 100, this is defined to make sorting in list with mixed things easier 14:22:42 number < atom < reference < fun < port < pid < tuple < list < binary 14:22:51 apparently 14:23:00 in C true is normally less than 100, not always though 14:23:10 ais523, true is an atom 14:23:14 and 100 a number 14:23:28 well you can compare strings to integers in C too 14:23:38 for instance "true" > 100 is almost certainly true 14:23:41 not a good idea, though 14:23:50 yes but that will be the first char's value 14:23:56 no, it won't 14:24:03 that would be *"true" > 100 14:24:15 it's comparing the integral value of the pointer to the number 14:24:24 You are likely to get a warning for that anyway. 14:24:31 well, yes 14:24:34 it makes no sense 14:24:49 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/0OeXKS19.html 14:25:20 - - <-- something went wrong in the paste there 14:25:21 ah, so and and or are operators in Erlang 14:25:23 should be -- 14:25:28 they're keywords in Prolog 14:26:01 ais523, operators yes, but you can't make a function called or. 14:26:15 heh, in Algol 68 you can call a function anything 14:26:48 well you may be able to by quoting it, depends on if it treats functions at atom names or as something else 14:27:04 since you *can* make atoms that doesn't start with a lower case char 14:27:11 you need to use single quotes 14:27:25 in algol 68 you got to choose whether you quoted the keywords or the identifiers or both 14:27:28 'This is a Valid erlang Atom' 14:27:34 also, in Prolog you can have arbitrary atoms too 14:27:43 but that is kind of confusing, so normally not used 14:27:49 they use the same syntax as strings for things that don't start with lowercase letters 14:27:58 but atoms and strings are freely coercible so it doesn't matter 14:28:14 and the compiler/interp will just pick one depending on which it feels would work better 14:28:20 > atom_to_list('This is a Valid erlang Atom'). 14:28:20 "This is a Valid erlang Atom" 14:29:26 (atom_to_list/1 is from the erlang module, which contains BIFs, that is built in functions, some of them are "auto imported" and thus doesn't need the module specifier erlang:) 14:31:38 AnMaster: do you know of any systems which need cflags set in the environment to be able to compile? 14:32:33 ais523, well depends. If I want to compile a 32-bit binary on my 64-bit multilib system then yes 14:32:41 I need to pass -m32 then 14:32:52 I'm thinking about the C-INTERCAL build 14:32:56 at the moment it configures twice 14:33:08 ais523, well doesn't automake have some AM_CFLAGS or such if you want to add custom ones? 14:33:11 once with the settings you give, for the stuff it ends up with 14:33:25 and once with a blank environment for the OIL compiler and other things only used during the build 14:33:46 that way cross-compile works, it builds a OIL cross-compiler that runs natively and then cross-compiles everything else 14:34:12 ais523, that hurts 14:34:22 in what way? 14:34:28 to think about 14:34:36 seems "pretty weird" ;P 14:34:37 Configure twice, build once, like that old old saying goes. 14:34:47 AnMaster: thanks 14:35:38 http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/configure.ac, http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/buildaux/buildconfig.ac and http://code.eso-std.org/c-intercal/buildaux/Makefile.am, if you're interested in how the build system works at present 14:35:49 ais523, I know that need custom LDFLAGS though 14:35:53 that some* 14:35:53 personally I think it's more streamlined and nicer to use than even Automake at default 14:36:07 don't remember the details but pretty sure I read about that once 14:36:08 AnMaster: I don't think Automake even pays attention to LDFLAGS 14:36:13 dnl Yes, that is a valid email address. If your mailer doesn't support nested 14:36:14 dnl comments, then get a better mailer. 14:36:16 I wonder if gmail does? 14:36:19 I'll try. 14:37:04 also, dnl is the second most insane idea for making comments work in a language I know, after INTERCAL's 14:37:08 Error 14:37:09 The email address "ais523" is not recognised. Please fix it and try again. 14:37:34 boo 14:37:36 you should complain 14:37:41 wait 14:37:47 I think its using the comment as a name 14:37:48 sec 14:38:12 nope 14:38:17 oh well 14:38:30 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:38:33 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:40:09 yay, soon tusho.net will be an openid 14:40:32 tusho: what do you think of my build process by the way? 14:40:37 ais523, you said <>, so creating a list with p added at the start then taking every pair in it should work or? 14:40:40 ais523: I don't understand it. 14:40:43 AnMaster: yes, it should 14:40:48 tusho: it's way neater than gcc's 14:40:52 I looked at theirs 14:40:59 it claims to be written in autoconf, but it isn't really 14:41:15 it uses autoconf macros for a few things like options, most of it's written directly in shell script though 14:42:22 wtf, someone just claimed http://intertwingly.net/ looks like 1996 :D 14:47:56 umm, 1996 was new like ten years ago 14:48:43 ugh, I'm getting more spam in German 14:49:19 ais523: i love that spam 14:49:31 read it out loud and imagine an old german guy with a moustache and glasses saying it 14:49:33 it is hilarious 14:50:25 4> intercal:unary_or(16#1234). 14:50:25 6974 14:50:29 ais523, does that seem right? 14:50:58 no 14:51:04 hm 14:51:11 wait, was that output in decimal? 14:51:21 give the output in hex, then I can try to work it out in my head 14:51:26 * oerjan got this spam in "norwegian" today. i _really_ wonder if spammers actually get hits on this insanely badly translated stuff... 14:51:34 ah 14:51:40 oerjan: what was it, BabelFish norwegian 14:51:48 ais523, 1B3E 14:51:57 something like that. 14:52:19 nah, should be 367C I think 14:52:49 what was worse was it tried to claim to be from the university (some phishing stuff) 14:53:07 they just do it to avoid spam filters 14:53:08 * ais523 wonders why phishers are so bad at spelling 14:53:12 and put the actaul content in an attached image 14:53:18 you would think it would be a bit of a giveaway... 14:53:28 it wasn't just spelling, but horrible grammar too 14:53:31 hmm... idea 14:53:40 use the images that are attached to spam as CAPTCHAs 14:53:49 that way the spammers end up fighting an arms war against each other 14:53:54 ais523, 367C is 1B3E but with an extra 0 bit at the end 14:53:56 huh 14:54:36 AnMaster: show your code? 14:54:47 a sec 14:55:06 http://rafb.net/p/fvPJUc40.html 14:55:43 tusho: oh that may be it. i read my mail on nvg through an xterm so i don't see attachments automatically 14:55:44 ais523: what do you mean by taht? 14:55:47 *that 14:56:05 oklopol: spammers obfuscate their attached images to stop anti-spam systems detecting them 14:56:12 yes 14:56:18 so you use the spammer's own technology to stop spam 14:56:29 by either making their CAPTCHAbots detect the anti-spam 14:56:39 or else having captchas which are too hard for the spammers to crack 14:56:41 oklopol: he means 14:56:45 mine the obfuscated images 14:56:47 it must be one or the other as it's the same problem from opposite sides 14:56:48 and put them on websites 14:56:50 as captchas 14:56:54 then, the website spammers 14:56:58 will have to break those 14:57:01 i thought you somehow meant the spammers would directly have to decrypt their own images or something. 14:57:02 so that we can steal the breakage 14:57:03 to detect their spam 14:57:05 OR 14:57:08 they won't be able to break it 14:57:09 oklopol: no, each other's images 14:57:11 but it comes to the same thing 14:57:12 and website spam will drop 14:57:12 but right, as captchas somewhere else 14:57:25 ais523: they're different breeds, is the problem 14:57:27 email & website spammers 14:57:31 your thing can kill the latter 14:57:34 but the former will just keep going 14:57:43 you think the email spammers would win? 14:57:50 probably 14:57:52 also: when spammers break captchas 14:57:53 and lots of people would like it if you could kill website spam at a stroke 14:57:55 they never reveal HOW... 14:57:56 duh 14:58:02 personally I think the website spammers would win 14:58:10 as there's a limit to how ingenious captchas could get 14:58:11 ais523: but you'd have to tell websites things like 14:58:18 ais523, any idea why you want an ending 0 bit there 14:58:22 Ch!ea p via.gra www.cheapviagracialis.inFo 14:58:22 doesn't seem to make sense 14:58:32 tusho: why not? 14:58:33 that... is not good user experience, nobody wants to enter that on a website about kittens 14:58:41 also, what's the capital F on the TLD for? 14:58:48 ais523: avoiding OCR 14:58:54 also: getting the punctuation and spacing and everything right will just annoy the user 14:59:01 they'll just not do it 14:59:13 'ash3yda7' is about as much as they'lle nter 14:59:23 have you seen how silly some captchas are at the moment? 14:59:26 like that cat-captcha 14:59:27 yes 14:59:29 and people complain 14:59:30 all the time 14:59:33 which is probably easier for computers than humans 14:59:37 rapidshare fixed their cat-captcha 14:59:42 after people exploded into RAGE 14:59:48 they weren't the only people using it I think 14:59:50 cat captcha? 14:59:52 it got quite popular once 14:59:53 cat-captcha? 15:00:00 it's a captcha 15:00:01 except 15:00:02 * AnMaster joins oklopol in confusion 15:00:04 some letters have cats printed on top of them 15:00:05 oklopol: AnMaster: lots of distorted letters as usual 15:00:08 you have to only enter the ones with cats on them. 15:00:13 but you only type the ones with faint images of cats printed on them 15:00:14 also, the cats kind of overlap other letters 15:00:17 and they don't even look like cats. 15:00:18 and they're faint. 15:00:19 there are ones with dogs printed on them instead 15:00:26 yes 15:00:27 heh 15:00:28 and you can't enter them 15:00:33 and they aren't even drawn with lines, just with dots forming a pattern 15:00:36 pretty much the stupidest thing ever, which is why they fixed it 15:00:49 perhaps one of vjn's domains should be just about captchas 15:00:58 the ironic thing is that they hardly obfuscated the letters themselves 15:01:00 kinda like those puzzles 15:01:08 that sort of thing may be too hard for humans 15:01:17 but... captchas 15:01:19 AnMaster: as I said, most likely easier for computers than humans 15:01:28 ais523, yeha 15:01:28 yeah* 15:01:46 AnMaster: as for your unary or, why on earth are you using a loop? 15:01:55 ais523, did you test that unary or on 0x1234 in intercal or? 15:01:57 it makes it pretty hard to figure out exactly what's going on 15:02:03 AnMaster: I did it in my head 15:02:18 rainman! 15:02:22 ais523, what do you suggest using instead? To be usable with bignum 15:02:22 unary or and and are the easiest of the operators to do in one's head 15:02:29 ais523, the wrapper isn't bignum 15:02:29 AnMaster: bignums don't have a top bit anyway 15:02:33 but I plan to extend that 15:02:45 so it's kind-of hard to see what the operators would do 15:02:56 ais523, I thought top bit set rounded upwards to whole byte :) 15:03:24 what? 15:03:30 AnMaster: if you make that whole pair of bytes it'll be quite similar to INTERCAL's dynamic typing 15:03:40 although the way typing actually works in INTERCAL is that there are two data types 15:03:49 most operators have fixed prototypes 15:04:02 but select returns either 16-bit or 32-bit depending on how many 1 bits are in its rightmost operand 15:04:46 (N.B. C-INTERCAL doesn't actually do all that, but cheats; there's a case in INTERCAL-72 that messes up in C-INTERCAL by design, as a result, and is far too ingrained to fix) 15:05:39 ais523, if you read that file you will see that the "private" functions should work for any binaries. and the wrappers are fixed size 15:05:48 there is a plan behind that yes 15:05:49 yes, I did 15:05:58 are you planning to invent bignum INTERCAL, though? 15:06:19 ais523, remember the ICAL fingerprint Mike Riley made? 15:06:33 oh dear, did it forget to specify the bitwidths? 15:06:39 ais523, now efunge have bignum cells so... 15:06:46 ais523: NIETCRLA would have a bignum mode 15:06:56 (my hypothetical INTERCAL interpreter, see if you can get the name) 15:06:58 ais523, I think it assumed fixed size cells 15:07:06 (Pronounced nyet-cur-lah) 15:07:12 tusho: I do, it's one of the possible variants on 64 bit middle-endian 15:07:14 ais523, in fact efunge is the only bignum befunge-98 that I know about 15:07:18 tusho: it's quite a powerful encryption 15:07:23 ais523: correct 15:07:40 ais523, so thus i need bignum versions 15:07:47 AnMaster: the problem is that many idiomatic INTERCAL expressions only work with fixed-size cells 15:08:28 DO .5 <- '?"'&"':2~:5'~'"'?"'?":5~:5"~"#65535$ 15:08:28 #65535"'~'#65535$#0'"$#32768'~'#0$#65535'" 15:08:28 $"'?":5~:5"~"#65535$#65535"'~'#0$#65535'"' 15:08:28 "$"':5~:5'~#1"'~#1"$#2'~#3 15:08:31 ais523, well if I did it for cfunge it would end up as 32-bit or 64-bit depending on compile time options. You mean programs won't work then? 15:08:44 AnMaster: look at all the hardcoded constants in the above 15:08:53 ais523, hm 15:08:59 that's greater-than 15:09:23 the original syslib version 15:09:32 ais523, actually ICAL do seem to specify bitwidth 15:09:38 (I later determined that part of the code was redundant, but everyone had been too confused to work it out) 15:09:56 ais523, however I would like to make bignum versions anyway, bignum intercal would be fun 15:10:00 the point is that INTERCAL has 16-bit and 32-bit data types, pretty much no matter what it's working on 15:10:16 if you do make bignum INTERCAL, I suggest that you have a bignum consisting of all 1s 15:10:18 forever 15:10:29 that you can mingle with a bignum consisting of all 0s so as to get alternating 1s and 0s 15:10:32 ais523: NIETCRLA would also have C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL modes, because I'm crazy like that 15:10:34 wouldn't that be kinda pointless though 15:10:34 ais523, that would probably be possible in haskell 15:10:34 :D 15:10:40 AnMaster: yep 15:10:48 hmm.. I like the name ITRALCEN better 15:10:52 see if you can work THAT on out... 15:10:54 *one 15:10:56 oh, have one bignum like that 15:10:59 ais523, however erlang doesn't have infinite lists since it wasn't made by mathematicians :P 15:11:05 you have to be able to do something like that in order to get most expressions to work 15:11:12 ais523, MAX_BIGNUM btw 15:11:29 tusho: you have half the characters backwards, alternating between the two sides 15:11:35 it's simple to make that kind of infinite bignum work 15:11:39 ais523: no, just like this 15:11:48 it will have a finite amount of data at any point, and the normalization of representation is simple 15:11:54 INTERCAL -> take the first and second letter -> type them -> put the cursor between them -> repeat with rest of strong 15:11:55 basically just cut it into blocks 15:12:05 leftmost block repeats 15:12:05 tusho: comes to the same thing, just a differnet way to describe it 15:12:11 IN ITEN ITRCEN ITRALCEN 15:12:13 oklopol: yes, that would work I think 15:12:26 tusho: that looks vaguely like the Latin motto for something 15:12:34 heh 15:12:37 indeed 15:12:38 it's just missing a couple more vowels to work visually 15:13:41 9> io:format("~.2B~n", [intercal:unary_or(16#1234)]). 15:13:41 1101100111110 15:13:41 11> io:format("~.2B~n", [16#367C]). 15:13:41 11011001111100 15:13:59 ais523, so are you sure about that last 0? 15:14:05 yes 15:15:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:15:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:15:23 hi ais523 15:16:05 ugh, sorrt about that 15:16:07 [Tue Sep 23 2008] [15:14:05] yes 15:16:09 [Tue Sep 23 2008] [15:14:29] what's unary_or(1) with your implementation 15:16:22 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 15:17:27 a sec 15:17:30 so, intercal or, (x<<1)|x? 15:17:43 ais523: 14> io:format("~.2B~n", [intercal:unary_or(1)]). 15:17:43 10000000000000000000000000000001 15:17:43 oklopol: pretty much, except it's a rotate not a shift 15:17:53 AnMaster: are you rotating in the wrong direction? 15:18:00 it should be ...0000000011 15:18:05 ais523, ah hm 15:18:45 lambda x:[a|b for a,b in zip(x,x[1:]+x[:1])] 15:19:13 oklopol: using addition for or? 15:19:25 >>> (lambda x:[a|b for a,b in zip(x,x[1:]+x[:1])])([1]) 15:19:26 [1] 15:19:35 no, i'm using | for or 15:19:57 I thought [a|b was the start of a list comprehension 15:19:58 i guess it may have looked like a haskell list comprehension 15:19:59 yes 15:20:18 what's the result of the zip, there 15:22:22 ais523, I worked it out by hand and I guess I'm rotating wrong yes 15:23:45 changing endbit to the other end didn't work hm 15:24:24 >>> [((a,b),"==>",zip(a,b)) for a,b in [(lambda r:([r() for i in xrange(10)],[r() for i in xrange(10)]))(lambda:int(__import__("random").random()*50))]] 15:24:24 [(([5, 17, 0, 21, 30, 46, 11, 34, 21, 13], [35, 37, 12, 26, 28, 45, 5, 21, 0, 38]), '==>', [(5, 35), (17, 37), (0, 12), (21, 26), (30, 28), (46, 45), (11, 5), (34, 21), (21, 0), (13, 38)])] 15:24:32 ais523, the *least significant bit* should be used to or the most significant right? 15:24:50 yes 15:24:56 and the result should be in the most significant 15:25:06 yes 15:25:13 the least significant should also be used to or the second-least-significant with the result in the least significant 15:25:22 so yes, you were right 15:25:22 ais523: i'm sure that answered your question in a confusing way 15:25:22 not me 15:25:37 oklopol: I know what zip does 15:25:44 it was the [1:] [:1] I was wondering about more 15:25:52 about whether it was working 15:25:57 AnMaster: sorry for giving you wrong advice 15:26:01 maybe you were right all along 15:26:05 I'll run it through ick 15:26:09 or intercalc 15:26:11 or something 15:26:15 l[:i] means the list up to i, exclusive, l[i:] means from i up, inclusive 15:26:17 mhm 15:26:45 yes, 1000....00001 for #V1 15:27:06 ah 15:27:09 now I remember why unary or is such a pain to use 15:27:14 let me check my #1234 too 15:27:25 what's 16#1234 in decimal, again? 15:27:43 4660 15:28:03 the answer's 6974 in decimal 15:28:06 is that what you got? 15:28:11 anyway if my or work then it should be trivial for xor and and 15:28:15 (sorry, I cheated and used wimpmode to speed things up a bit) 15:28:26 6974 yes 15:28:34 ok, so it is right all along 15:28:41 you need two wrappers by the way, for 16-bit and 32-bit or 15:28:53 unless you look at the length of the bit field to work out which to use, I suppose 15:29:11 ais523, well the loop variant works for any given size of binary 15:29:14 http://tusho.net/blog/ <- yay pagination works! 15:29:24 ais523, I need *two wrappers* is what you mean 15:29:28 "Did you mean tsusho MARY?" 15:29:42 AnMaster: yes, that's what I said 15:29:47 ah right 15:30:10 "Did you mean tsusho MARY?" <- what 15:30:12 ais523, I could make a bignum one, just need to find out how large binary is needed 15:30:22 tusho: I was trying to find the documentation for MKRY 15:30:27 Google didn't know where it was thuogh 15:30:30 tusho.net/mkry 15:31:39 ais523: tip - if you want something I made, tusho.net slash name-of-thing should work well in future :P 15:31:58 heh, my blog is the first result for tusho blogs but not tushob log 15:31:59 *tusho blog 15:32:19 probably Google doesn't know about MKRY because you didn't link it anywhere 15:32:33 except there should be a link from ircbrowse, but maybe it's nofollowed 15:32:53 ircbrowse won't link it 15:32:55 it'll just have the URL 15:33:07 anyway, I'll link to it from my blog 15:33:11 to index it 15:33:11 ircbrowse links URLs IIRC 15:33:17 ais523: do you like the pagination, by the way? 15:33:32 if there's more than 20 pages (more than 50 posts) it'll be like this: 15:33:35 yes, nice and simple 15:33:45 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 457 458 459 460 -> 15:35:04 ais523: http://tusho.net/blog/mkry 15:35:08 google should pick it up sometime or other 15:35:31 tusho: I so hope you get a comment on that written by some non-#esotericer 15:35:44 ais523: i probably will, but it'll be "lolwut" 15:36:08 hmm... 15:36:15 * tusho changes the footer a bit to link to tusho.net 15:37:16 ais523, my last version is http://rafb.net/p/q0Ns9N24.html 15:38:14 the prediction was correct, i didn't get it. 15:38:14 AnMaster: you say "32-bit" in your spec for the unaries but mention no bitcount anywhere for them 15:38:23 push '.'s? 15:38:36 ais523, look below 15:38:36 like, pushes the ascii value of '.' a few times? 15:38:51 ais523, line 47 15:38:55 well just once according to the stack thingie 15:39:07 hmm, actually there's an ellipsis 15:39:15 ais523, the code was common so I abstracted it out :P 15:39:26 * oklopol waits for the truth to appear 15:39:34 oklopol: its obvious,ehehehehe... 15:39:44 AnMaster: I'd suggest removing the 32-bit restriction from the docs, if you've removed it from the code 15:40:04 ais523, I didn't it was just abstracted out into the code at line 47 15:40:09 oklopol: mikeriley says 'ehehehehehhhhehehehehe' a lot 15:40:11 and does things like this 15:40:19 ehehehehehehhe,,,,i don't know........ 15:40:20 ais523, didn't,* 15:40:22 also 15:40:25 his fingerprints are never well specced 15:40:29 AnMaster: ah, spotted it now 15:40:31 they're always as obscure and hard to understand as MKRY is 15:40:44 each one pushes 3-15 copies of what they say 15:40:48 C pushes 3-15 ','s to the stack 15:40:52 D pushes 3-15 '.'s to the stack 15:40:56 tusho: i didn't realize it was a joke of some sort :) 15:40:58 ais523, arguably the internal functions should be documented too ;P 15:41:00 and E pushes 3-15 e/h (randomly chosen each time) to the stack 15:41:10 it lets you efficiently and easily construct mike riley sentences 15:41:16 :) 15:41:19 :D 15:42:20 ais523, btw would you say that GCC's error messages for syntax errors often are a bit cryptic and don't point out where the error really is? 15:42:30 sometimes, sometimes they're useful though 15:42:34 ais523: why did you want the spec? do you want to implement an intercal version? 15:42:48 ais523, I had: "./intercal.erl:41: syntax error before: '('" 15:42:52 I just wanted to remind myself of what it was 15:42:58 now I think that is a bit less specific 15:43:09 ais523: ah was it mentioned? 15:43:14 AnMaster: INTERCAL's error messages are really non-sepcific 15:43:17 tusho: no, I just remembered it 15:43:20 ah 15:43:21 :P 15:43:25 ais523, true, they are worse 15:43:31 the line number they give is normally the line after the error, but not always 15:43:47 oh dear... i've sacrificed a bit of lynx usability 15:43:54 the paginator is all scrunched together with no spaces 15:43:54 what have you done? 15:43:58 ais523, well in erlang's case the errors are mostly not ordered after line numbers 15:44:05 I guess I'll just have to put the spaces back in but wrap them with 15:44:08 so I can display:none them 15:44:14 so a lot of the time it is the third error or so pointing out where the issue really was 15:44:19 which can be confusing 15:44:36 this'll be ugly, though... 15:44:36 ais523, since the first few are generally along the lines of "function used not defined" 15:45:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:46:08 wb oerjan 15:46:22 15:46:27 that is sure darn ugly :D 15:46:38 but hey, it works nicely in lynx now 15:46:44 and isn't exactly unsemantic 15:46:46 AnMaster: I've seen worse, though; one system I used to program in simply told you if there was an error or not 15:46:48 they are, after all, spaces. 15:47:01 when there was I used to find its location using binary search and comments 15:47:58 ais523, wtf was that system? 15:48:09 some intercal dialect? 15:48:10 AnMaster: scripting language for a game 15:48:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | huh?. 15:48:15 ok wtfish 15:48:19 also, good timing optbot 15:48:19 ais523: Probably 15:50:09 ITRALCEN would give detailed, precise and helpful error messages 15:50:17 more than just about any other compiler out there 15:50:28 that's about as INTERCALLY as the incredibly obscure, unhelpful ones of most INTERCAL compilers, I think 15:50:51 In http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#ICAL wtf is the "n" argument to R? 15:51:21 number of entries deep to resume 15:51:31 in INTERCAL you can return from a procedure other than the one you're currently in 15:51:49 R is equivalent to 1-F1R, if it helps 15:51:52 more than just about any other compiler out there <-- have you seen clang or icc? They show the code in the errors/warnings and underline the relevant part of the line 15:52:01 don't know how you would beat that 15:52:07 AnMaster: um 15:52:09 you mean 15:52:10 like Python? 15:52:16 python uses an up arrow on the right spot 15:52:19 tusho, yes I know several other languages do that 15:52:21 or Perl, which uses a ^ underneath? 15:52:22 but that's a pretty basic diagnostic... 15:52:23 javac iirc 15:52:24 too 15:52:25 and yeah, i would beat that 15:52:28 ais523: that's what i said 15:52:29 tusho, how? 15:52:44 tusho: except you said Python and I said Perl... 15:52:47 icc sometimes even make suggestions for how to fix iirc 15:52:55 AnMaster: so does ghc, but its suggestions are useless 15:53:02 mine would use its semantic analysis tools to suggest how to fix 15:53:04 and not just based on the error 15:53:08 but based on the code and the error 15:53:12 heh 15:53:22 that would actually be pretty interesting 15:53:27 actually, because of the tons of help it gives you it'd probably be more useful to run it as a g ui 15:53:32 so that you could expand/contract the warnings & errors 15:53:33 tusho: it shouldn't need the code at all, it should be able to make the program work correctly from a copy of the sepc 15:53:35 to avoid a flood of info 15:53:36 *spec 15:53:43 ais523: hahahah, well no not quite :P 15:54:21 aren't there languages like that, you tell it what you want to do, and it figures it out 15:54:37 or at least have been ideas of that 15:54:43 AnMaster: arguably Prolog is like that to start with 15:54:51 but really you have to know the internals to use it properly, ! 15:54:53 AnMaster: declarative ones 15:55:01 ais523, hm interesting 15:55:16 ITRALCEN is pretty much the other side of intercallyness as opposed to the compilers of today 15:55:39 tusho: as opposed to typical INTERCAL compilers or typical programming language compilers? 15:55:50 it's precise and helpful and featureful and everything, trying to surpass even conventional languages, and yet the language itself is still very INTERCALLy so it's helping you with tons of detail... to code an awful, awful wreck 15:55:51 tusho, are you going to implement it? 15:55:57 AnMaster: yes, sometime 15:56:03 hah 15:56:04 i haven't got all the details sorted out in my head 15:56:07 tusho: I have plans for something like that too 15:56:07 i'd like to first 15:56:10 tusho, fair enough 15:56:11 called PRACTICAL 15:56:16 ais523: yes, but that's a different language 15:56:18 ais523, Feather! 15:56:21 which you've told me about 15:56:27 i mean, mine isn't "easy intercal" 15:56:29 it's kind of sinister 15:56:33 it's polite, helpful, and all that 15:56:35 and yet it's driving you insane 15:56:44 because it's calmly and politely helping you to code *in INTERCAL* 15:56:50 anyway I've had a huge revolutionary idea to revolutionise INTERCAL expressions the same way its flow control is actually really nice 15:57:18 I was also thinking about what a dedicated INTERCAL IDE would be like 15:57:31 I decided it would leave certain features locked until you got enough experience points to be able to use them 15:57:34 tusho, you need some animated icon that pops up bubbles like: "You seem to be writing a hello world program, do you want help?" 15:57:38 AnMaster: exactly! 15:57:41 you could call it... hmm.... Clippy! 15:57:49 if ITRALCEN included an IDE it would syntax highlight EVERYTHING 15:57:59 while you type and move your mouse tooltips would go into excruciating detail 15:58:01 actually mine was going to too 15:58:07 tons of panels to the side letting you analyze and refactor your code 15:58:13 except syntax highlight not based on syntax 15:58:13 full integration with the compiler! project support! 15:58:24 and it'd KILL YOU because it would be so over the top and you WOULD BE WRITING INTERCAL 15:58:30 the highlight instead showed how often you'd used that particular construct 15:58:34 tusho, :D 15:58:40 so for instance if you use a variable a lot its name becomes bright green 15:58:42 it'd probably be a more horrifying experience than the bare bones tools for INTERCAL of today 15:58:48 whereas it's a dull red if it's the only time you've ever read it 15:58:57 ais523: hah 15:59:07 ais523: like heat vision for INTERCAL! 15:59:24 the trick is that that would actually catch lots of typos 15:59:30 yes indeed 15:59:33 heh, you could make it just work on character neighbours 15:59:40 and then it would be language agnostic 15:59:56 sort of like a Markov chain, but instead of generating nonsense it checks to see how much Markov-sense your code makes 16:00:08 if the whole thing's flourescent green you've cut-and-pasted too much 16:00:20 actually, that tool would have saved me several hours on a RL project once 16:00:22 ais523, kate can be set to pop up auto completion based on existing words in the document 16:00:24 works fairly well 16:00:31 AnMaster: so can every editor ever 16:00:31 where I accidentally duplicated part of a table of constants 16:00:35 vim can do that 16:00:37 VIM! 16:00:44 it does it in one line of vimrc 16:00:44 yes and? 16:00:46 in fact 16:00:49 you don't even have to enable it 16:00:50 it's there by default 16:00:56 someone should make a VID which is like vi, but worse 16:01:01 ais523: that's a genius idea 16:01:23 known as teco? 16:01:30 ais523: not exactly hard 16:01:33 vi is nice 16:01:35 tusho, actually it may be enabled by default in kate 16:01:36 and yes i mean bill joy vi 16:03:00 ugh, my bad posture is starting to be uncomfortable 16:03:04 after all these years... 16:03:47 tusho: according to the CotC website you're still supine 16:03:55 heh 16:04:33 i think i may need a new chair 16:16:43 -!- kar8ng1 has joined. 16:17:33 there may be porn of it, but google definitely does not index it. 16:17:57 index what? 16:18:10 computer porn 16:18:24 human+computer, to be exact 16:27:20 -!- jix has joined. 16:43:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:55:33 ais523: you mentioned that dnl was crazy 16:55:36 what does it do? 16:55:55 discards everything up to the next newline, including the newline 16:56:37 so it's a cross between comment and line continuation 16:56:42 also you can generate them at runtime 16:56:47 which can lead to chaos on occasion 16:57:01 heh... 17:10:48 -!- Mony has joined. 17:13:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:13:51 plop 17:15:35 hi Mony 17:20:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:20:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:20:35 hi ais523 17:24:54 -!- CO2Games has quit ("And I invented doors, no joke!"). 17:28:14 CO2Games: no you didn't 17:53:04 CoE: CO2Games did not invent doors. 17:57:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:02:29 ais523, yes I wonder about dnl, # comments work in configure.ac too 18:02:46 AnMaster: # is even weirder in m4 18:02:52 ais523, oh? 18:02:54 it echos everything from the # to the end of the line into the output 18:02:58 without interpreting any of it 18:03:04 so # comment dnl comment 2 18:03:11 actually copies # comment dnl comment 2 into the output 18:03:12 Hooray! 18:03:16 http://tusho.net/ is now an openID 18:03:18 ais523, heh 18:03:38 even people who like m4 more or less outright admit it's an esolang 18:03:45 ais523, well that will result in a bash comment 18:03:53 yes I'd say so 18:03:59 ais523, yet GNU use it? 18:04:06 only for autoconf 18:04:08 I think 18:04:31 ais523, true, but why? 18:04:52 why m4? 18:04:54 history I think 18:04:59 autoconf used to be all written in sh 18:05:07 ugh 18:05:11 hard to maintain 18:05:18 well, exactly 18:05:28 they used m4 to automate the process of generating configure scripts 18:05:37 as it's apparently simple to start with 18:05:49 just a case of writing substitutions for each command 18:06:05 there's a lot of depth to it though, in that over time you discover increasingly weird ways to abuse its evaluation engine 18:06:23 and power m4 users sort of actively encourage that sort of thing 18:06:25 ais523, yes I wrote a few autoconf macros myself 18:06:28 horrible 18:06:41 it would be to someone with your personality, I imagine 18:07:01 m4 sounds lovely 18:07:06 what is that supposed to mean? 18:07:14 AnMaster: you only like boring, sane things 18:07:25 AnMaster: different people have different styles 18:07:42 you tend towards things which are relatively sane and work more or less the same way each time 18:07:53 and as a result your programs tend to be saner than most of the people's here 18:07:59 tusho, yet I code befunge? 18:08:03 presumably tusho thinks this is a bad thing 18:08:14 also, befunge is sane for an esolang 18:08:19 clever but sane 18:08:19 well yeah 18:08:21 yeah befunge is pretty pedestrian 18:09:07 ais523, and I would like Feather if you ever got it done ;P 18:09:19 sure? 18:09:24 I have headaches just thinking about it 18:09:28 probably that's why I never get it done 18:09:32 yeah AnMaster thinks he likes feather 18:09:37 it's brilliantly elegant despite the headaches, though 18:09:43 but i suspect he'd ravage every single part of it if it was actaully made 18:10:17 ais523, I like thinking about the weird parts of core funge 18:10:19 like k over k 18:10:21 and such 18:10:33 the edge cases *are* fun 18:10:39 AnMaster: in m4 those sorts of interactions are what you do to actually run programs, normally 18:11:05 ais523, (ab)using edge cases? 18:11:15 yes 18:11:18 hm 18:11:21 although I don't think it's abuse so much in this case 18:11:41 also there are tricks involving dynamically changing the syntax of the language to do stuff, but they tend to be looked down upon 18:11:57 ais523, my autoconf macros didn't really use edge cases 18:12:11 Hooray, pavatar works too! 18:12:20 -!- olsner has joined. 18:12:21 and well Feather would change the language 18:12:22 that is the point 18:12:35 Feather would change everything 18:12:41 http://www.pavatar.com/check?hp=http%3A%2F%2Ftusho.net%2F <-- it wurkz 18:12:45 from its own point of view it can change the universe 18:12:47 * tusho waits for someone to ask what that is, they always do 18:12:52 although I suspect the universe could have other ideas 18:13:02 ais523, could you even make any meaningful programs in Feather without changing the language? 18:13:46 oh, quite probably 18:14:01 generally speaking you don't change the language as such but add features to it 18:14:01 but that wouldn't be fun of course 18:14:07 ah hm 18:14:10 ais523: you should make all the core primitives modify the actual language, by changing the expression you're evaluating into its result 18:14:14 then EVERYTHING would modify it 18:14:23 and those features seamlessly interoperate with the other features that other libraries had added 18:14:42 that way, for instance, you can load a debugger after the fact, and then step through the code up to the point you're at at the moment 18:14:48 sort of like JIT debugging but even crazier 18:14:53 ais523, well how can you add features that require external communication? that is not included in "turing complete". For example file io, calling external code. or whatever 18:15:19 but I may be wrong since you failed to explain how feather actually works ;P 18:15:26 I've been thinking a lot about that 18:15:34 ais523, hello world program in feather please? 18:15:47 AnMaster: I can't write anything in Feather yet, not even a NOP, really 18:15:53 ais523, hm 18:16:13 but output would ideally have to be rewound as you went back and redone as you went forwards 18:16:15 probably cached 18:16:20 ais523, what language do you plan to implement feather in? or the boot strap feather in 18:16:33 AnMaster: I'm not sure, I was discussing this with tusho a while back 18:16:42 ais523: perhaps squeak 18:16:44 just for the irony 18:16:47 probably eventually C but I want to start with something functional 18:16:48 or non-irony 18:16:48 I don't know 18:17:21 functional should be easier 18:17:31 Unlambda has all the right features, actually, but is a pain to program in] 18:17:41 ais523, if I know the language (and/or plan to learn it, like scheme (which I plan to learn when I get time)) I could probably help with parts that need to be done 18:18:06 * tusho notes down: Fork Feather at nearest oppertunity 18:18:28 one of the main problems with Feather is I feel it needs an interp before it can be properly specced 18:18:38 to see what's impossible and what's merely implausible 18:18:41 implausible I can do, sometimes 18:18:43 I understand 18:19:22 ais523, what are the features you need of unlambda? 18:19:34 very first-class functions, call/cc 18:19:35 that's about it 18:19:54 ais523, and that kind of prevents a lot of the IO stuff 18:19:56 some sane and preferably extensible way to interface with the user would be nice, too 18:20:00 ais523, scheme or some other lisp maybe then? 18:20:12 also ideally call/cc should rewind output 18:20:23 but yes, Scheme is near the top of my list of potential languages for this atm 18:21:07 ais523, rewind output could be hard, what if the output is sent to something like a printer? 18:21:16 not very common these days ;P 18:21:34 my intended semantics are to just do nothing if output is rewound and then the same output is reoutput 18:21:46 but if the output is rewound and different output comes out, just print the new output 18:22:03 that'll be closest to what the user expects, I think 18:23:23 feather should clearly be written in Coq or Agda 18:23:39 ais523, oh btw didn't you ask some time ago about languages that can seralize functions? And that unlambda was one of them 18:23:48 or was that someone else 18:23:59 Underlambda is defined to be able to serialise functions 18:23:59 can scheme do it? 18:24:07 hmm... interesting 18:24:16 there's no technical reason why not but it might be inefficient 18:24:21 ais523, erlang can seralise functions 18:24:35 certainly if you're using the Lisp method of storing in a list and using eval to call, it's trivial 18:24:36 maybe it could compile to Parrot 18:24:39 in fact it is used internally in between distributed erlang nodes 18:24:41 however lambdas tend to be better 18:24:52 oerjan: is that a genuine language yet? 18:24:59 ais523: 4> term_to_binary(F). 18:24:59 <<131,112,0,0,3,129,1,213,76,172,89...>> 18:25:02 where F is a fun 18:25:21 presumably the resulting serialisation doesn't mean anything to anyone but Erlang? 18:25:52 ais523, indeed. Erlang of same major release even 18:26:11 which happens every few years or so iirc 18:26:11 that's enough for Underlambda, anyway 18:26:23 presumably it can deserialise the result back into a function again 18:26:31 ais523: no idea 18:26:54 (Underlambda's great in that you can merely serialise a continuation if you happen to want to save an image) 18:29:39 Lazy Bird perhaps? although it may not have continuations 18:30:00 continuations are very very important to the way I plan to implement Feather 18:30:24 in fact I was thinking about writing my own language in C, merely implemented to optimise continuations for the unusual use they'll see in a Feather program 18:32:29 Lazy Bird doesn't have continuation. 18:32:55 At least I can't think of a way to do it. 18:33:12 Mainly because I still don't know what it is 18:33:21 Slereah2: Does it have c? 18:33:24 No. 18:33:31 Then not unless you do CPS. 18:33:35 CPS? 18:33:52 Slereah2: it basically involves never ever returning from a function 18:33:57 ais523: parrot is the perl6 VM. 18:34:07 THE FUNCTION OF NO RETURN 18:34:07 instead you give a function pointer as an argument saying where to transfer control after the function runs 18:34:11 presumably it can deserialise the result back into a function again 18:34:12 yes 18:34:15 then you get rid of the call stack 18:34:19 assuming it is a fun() style fun 18:34:19 because you don't need it 18:34:30 if it is a MFA style fun it is just a reference 18:34:42 MFA style fun = fun mymodule:myfunc/2 18:34:43 or such 18:34:54 which is more or less like a C function pointer 18:35:05 ais523: by the way, do you have any idea how to make scp -r handle deletes too? 18:35:17 no, not off the top of my head 18:35:22 scp is likely the wrong tool to be using 18:35:30 what should i use instead, then? 18:35:35 you could delete the entire tree at the other end then scp 18:35:42 that would come to the same thing 18:35:43 ouch 18:35:56 why is that ouch, you're overwriting all the files over there anyway 18:36:01 true 18:36:05 (that's /why/ it's the wrong tool to be using) 18:36:05 does rsync do deletes? 18:36:09 probably 18:36:19 one of my friends uses svn for that purpose, strangely enough 18:36:48 somewhat of a subversion 18:37:31 tusho, it does if you give it the right command line option 18:37:40 --delete iirc 18:37:52 then it removes files that doesn't exist on the target side 18:37:55 and heh oerjan 18:38:05 err which doesn't exist on source side* 18:38:09 blergh 18:38:32 * tusho gets an evil idea - make his homepage FOAF instead of HTML and use an xml stylesheet to show it to browsers - like http://hublog.hubmed.org/foaf.xml 18:38:36 * tusho does evil idea 18:39:03 foaf? 18:39:22 File Ond af file? 18:40:04 http://www.foaf-project.org/ 18:40:09 person metadata & relationship thing 18:40:27 http://hublog.hubmed.org/foaf.xml is a foaf file 18:41:12 essentially, if I do that, tusho.net will be the most semantic homepage evar 18:41:32 i have YADIS directing to my openid, a Pavatar header, ... 18:42:18 tusho: OpenSearch? 18:42:30 no search on my site, though I might add it to my blahg 18:42:53 what about microformats? 18:43:15 ais523: unneeded, microformats are for HTML, all the info will be in the FOAF profile 18:43:25 since tusho.net is just going to be my identity page 18:43:31 no microformats on tusho.net 18:43:33 err 18:43:35 no microformats on tusho.net/blog 18:43:38 but i don't see any that i could use 18:46:03 ais523: unneeded, microformats are for HTML, all the info will be in the FOAF profile no microformats on tusho.net/blog <-- that is because it is html there will be no microformats? 18:46:12 "" 18:46:27 AnMaster: "*tusho gets an evil idea - make his homepage FOAF instead of HTML and use an xml stylesheet to show it to browsers - like http://hublog.hubmed.org/foaf.xml" 18:46:30 Ideas do not apply themself immediately. 18:46:33 *themselves 18:47:17 * tusho learns foaf 18:49:15 ah right 18:58:42 hooray 18:58:45 #foaf are helpful 18:58:49 so: almost all done 18:58:50 wow 18:59:04 it's quite rare to get helpful channels nowadays for some reason 18:59:06 yes 18:59:17 although the ones I'm in tend to be helpful 18:59:22 probably why I stick around in them 18:59:29 even #esoteric is helpful sometimes 18:59:35 also, RDF and FOAF are both good usecases of XML, and also very easy to use 18:59:39 fungot can give some amazing advice 18:59:41 which i think is excellent 18:59:46 although it isn't here right 18:59:47 now 18:59:51 I'll have to ask optbot instead. 18:59:52 ais523: yes. this is church numeral stuff. 19:01:59 optbot's secrets are revealed at last! 19:01:59 tusho: Why isn't ` apply? :-P 19:03:13 * tusho tries to figure out how to use foaf:based_near 19:03:13 obviously optbot isn't written in Unlambda, then 19:03:13 ais523: the thing you told Deewiant 19:05:19 ais523, yes I tend to ask programming questions in esoteric 19:05:28 because no one asks: "why to you need that" 19:05:32 ;) 19:05:40 well, sometimes we do 19:05:44 but normally afterwards 19:05:51 ais523, yes 19:05:52 and out of curiosity rather than pointing you to a better way 19:06:04 well, if there is a better way, we'll let you decide if you want to use it 19:06:05 of course because the whole point is doing it in weird ways 19:06:34 ais523, I still like the idea of bignum intercal but I don't think I would be able to implement it 19:06:35 if I came here and said "I'm writing a machine-code program, but I want all the characters in it to be printable", nobody would bat an eyelid 19:06:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:06:48 ais523, indeed 19:07:07 and yes I have done that 19:07:21 it's the concept of a self uu-decoding application 19:07:32 to distribute uudecode over Usenet to people who don't have it 19:07:36 heh 19:07:40 only a DOS version though, I don't think you can do that in ELF 19:07:49 ais523, can't they access ftp? 19:07:55 almsot certainly 19:08:06 but again, why care if there are better ways? 19:08:16 almsot? typo for almsort? 19:08:17 ;) 19:08:39 for almost 19:08:55 hah 19:09:09 but the point is to try to figure out what almsort would be! 19:09:26 (iirc that was how befunge was created, befunge being a typo) 19:09:50 a typo for what? 19:10:33 "The word "Befunge" started life as a typographical error for the word "before", typed by Curtis Coleman at 4AM on a BBS chat system." 19:10:40 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge#Etymology 19:10:43 that always confused me 19:10:48 it's apparently typo 19:10:58 but befunge and before are pretty different to type 19:11:10 compare ung and or 19:11:14 ais523, dvorak? (not sure if that matters= 19:11:15 ) 19:11:20 maybe it was a non-QWERTY keyboard? 19:11:24 ais523, would you say = was an easy typo for ) and ? 19:11:30 is* 19:11:37 not on this keyboard 19:11:44 ais523, on a Swedish keyboard it is 19:11:54 = is two keys away from ) and doesn't need shift on a UK layout 19:12:03 so yes, I think it must be some non-UK/US layout 19:12:26 Shift: !"#¤%&/()=? 19:12:27 Normal: 1234567890+ 19:12:52 see how that is easy to typo on a Swedish keyboard 19:13:20 !"£$%^&*()_+ 19:13:25 top row on a UK keyboard, with shift 19:13:35 ~!@£$%^&*()_+ 19:13:45 US keyboards are !@#$%^&*()_+ IIRC 19:13:54 well if you include the first char before 1 then it is 19:13:58 dvorak doesn't look very plausible for before -> befunge either 19:13:59 § 19:14:01 and shifted 19:14:02 ½ 19:14:05 ¬ is shift-backquote for me 19:14:06 weird one 19:14:11 and backquote's to the left of 1 19:14:29 yes, it isn't even in ASCII (nor is £ for that matter but I can understand why that's on a UK keyboard) 19:14:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:KB_Sweden.svg 19:15:00 ais523, oh and back quote is ` you mean? 19:15:04 that is a dead key 19:15:06 yes 19:15:06 and shifted 19:15:11 a live key here 19:15:12 ````` 19:15:17 comes in useful when typing Unlambda programs 19:15:28 ais523, well don't do that on Swedish keyboard then 19:15:38 ais523, see the link I posted 19:15:43 I have done 19:15:43 pretty bad for programming really 19:15:50 with altgr-7 { 19:15:58 most programming languages are US/UK-keyboard-centric 19:16:04 although APL needed a keyboard of its own IIRC 19:16:10 heh 19:16:15 (The Finnish keyboard is identical to the Swedish one, just to add one more point of data.) 19:16:16 ais523: what is the http header to tell a browser to display the file, not download it? 19:16:21 e.g. for xml with a stylesheet 19:16:25 ais523, erlang works pretty well, a few uses for altgr only 19:16:27 not sure 19:16:28 like $ 19:16:33 Although I've made my dead keys undead. 19:16:35 although IIRC it's different in IE for no apparent reason 19:16:38 and tuples {} 19:16:42 but not all the blocks :) 19:17:06 Is it content-disposition? 19:17:15 could be 19:17:18 tusho, application/xml+xhtml iirc? 19:17:19 although isn't that for MIME type? 19:17:20 wait xml 19:17:22 not xhtml 19:17:23 hm 19:17:27 AnMaster: no, no, you misunderstand 19:17:27 text/xml maybe then? 19:17:40 safari & firefox etc see "application/xrds+xml" and think "lolwut? best download" 19:17:45 I want to keep that mime type - it is correct 19:17:48 but tell the browser to display it 19:17:54 hm 19:17:56 Content-disposition: is at least the one people use to do "forcedly download this file instead of displaying", so I guess it could work the other way around too. 19:17:58 aha 19:18:00 maybe content-disposition is the mime type browsers think it ought to be 19:18:04 Content-Disposition: inline 19:18:08 tusho, got some example site where it works? 19:18:12 ah 19:18:13 ah, that looks good 19:18:15 tusho, useful one 19:18:22 Yes, and "Content-Disposition: attachment" for the "download it you stupef browser" one. 19:18:25 now I wonder how to set that in lighttpd config 19:18:34 fizzie: stupef 19:18:34 :D 19:18:45 Muphry's Law! 19:18:48 incidentally, what happens if you put a META HTTP-Equiv in an HTML file saying it isn't actually HTML after all? 19:19:10 Beh. Despite Content-Disposition: inline, my browser insists that downloading it is a good idea. 19:19:21 Oh. 19:19:21 ais523, logically it should cause an infinite loop 19:19:28 It isn't being set 19:19:29 :D 19:19:35 AnMaster: no 19:19:45 ais523, since it will not read the HTTP-Equiv since it isn't html 19:19:53

hello world

19:19:57 then it will see that it is html from the server headers 19:19:57 should display the source in text/plain 19:20:05 if I know my http & html specs correctly 19:20:08 then it will see that it really was 19:20:09 and so on 19:20:14 tusho, well that is boring 19:20:19 and non-logical 19:20:19 tusho: you so have to try that now 19:20:22 AnMaster: no, it's logical 19:20:24 on a real webserver 19:20:27 you determine content type by: 19:20:30 1. check header 19:20:36 2. if header says html, check html head 19:20:41 3. if the head mentions something, it's actually that 19:20:42 4. use that 19:20:50 that's how you can use value=application/xhtml+xml 19:20:54 tusho, on 3 *it should backtrack to 1* 19:20:55 even though your server says text/html 19:20:56 bet you it doesn't actually work in practice with text/plain 19:21:04 AnMaster: then you couldn't use Content-Type _at all_ 19:21:08 no actual money, though 19:21:13 because I'm not certain 19:21:23 tusho, um I set my webserver to serve them as application/xhtml+xml... if the extension is .xhtml 19:21:23 Header onsuccess set Content-Disposition inline 19:21:26 surely that should work... 19:21:32 AnMaster: not everyone controls their host 19:21:43 ais523: but is it at least genuine monopoly money? 19:21:44 tusho, php then header(). 19:21:49 AnMaster: HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 19:21:56 * tusho kicks AnMaster 19:21:59 assuming you can run php 19:22:05 I used that trick a few times 19:22:06 Of course I can. Will I unless needed? No,. 19:22:11 Plus, it works for other headers. 19:22:25 tusho, well of course, and you could actually use ruby or whatever instead 19:22:35 Or I could use .htaccess, because this works:Header onsuccess set X-Pavatar http://tusho.net/avatar 19:22:41 and therefore so should this:Header onsuccess set Content-Disposition inline 19:22:44 At least Firefox still renders the page "

foo

19:22:46 so I should fix the problem, whatever it is. 19:22:47 " as HTML. 19:22:52 tusho, interesting 19:22:55 fizzie: Report a bug :P 19:23:03 no, I think fizzie's results may be right 19:23:12 there are some things which can't be set in an http-equiv 19:23:27 content-type with arbitrary values seems to be a good candidate for that treatment 19:23:44 But you can do http-equiv=content-type, value=text/html; charset=foo. 19:23:51 Incidentally, http://www.w3.org/RDF/Validator/ARPServlet.tmp/servlet_34128.png is pretty. 19:23:58 fizzie, indeed 19:24:44 "I was born at an early age"? 19:24:57 OH DUH 19:24:59 ais523: yes 19:25:00 :D 19:25:08 I forgot to sync the .htaccess, hah 19:25:12 The HTML spec is pretty vague about metadata. For HTML 4.01, "User agents are not required to support meta data mechanisms. For those that choose to support meta data, this specification does not define how meta data should be interpreted." 19:25:27 fizzie, for xhtml? 19:25:29 tusho: [citation needed] 19:25:34 oerjan: :D 19:26:00 Bah 19:26:01 Content-Disposition: inline 19:26:02 and it still downloads 19:26:15 oerjan: you should at least link it 19:26:25 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Fact citation needed] 19:26:34 tusho, "Warning: implode() [function.implode]: Bad arguments. in /home/tusho/www/tusho.net/id/MyID.php on line 1569" 19:26:53 AnMaster: What did you do? 19:26:56 tusho, oh and http://tusho.net/id/ gives a directory index 19:27:07 Ah fuck. 19:27:09 What went wrong now... 19:27:11 Oh. 19:27:12 Duh. 19:27:14 tusho, http://tusho.net/id/ gives a directory index, it was listed in that image. so I clicked in MyID.php 19:27:19 tusho, then I got that message 19:27:20 yes okay, shut up, I'm fixing it 19:27:31 hmm... it seems now they have a page [[w:Wikipedia:Citation needed]] to link people to 19:27:37 *hmm... it seems now they have a page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=Wikipedia:Citation_needed to link people to 19:27:58 ais523, why doing it through search? 19:28:00 with an xkcd comic 19:28:07 AnMaster: my client does that automatically 19:28:08 ais523, also I seen that before 19:28:25 I mean wikipedia using it on that page 19:28:29 ah, ok 19:28:57 http://tusho.net/id/ -> "Internal Server Error" 19:28:58 fun tusho ! 19:29:07 EXTERNAL SERVER ERROR 19:29:11 AnMaster: Hi. Which part of "Shut up, I'm fixing it" did you not understand? Love, tusho. 19:29:28 Love? Between you and AnMaster? 19:29:35 ais523: Sarcasm, more like. 19:29:41 ais523, it is a bad citation 19:29:43 the real one was 19:29:46 yes okay, shut up, I'm fixing it 19:29:51 tusho, and it was a different problem :P 19:30:01 No. Same problem. 19:30:03 Just a problem in the fix. 19:30:28 "phpMyID is NOT compatible with Suhosin or other hardened PHP systems (Debian users take note)." <-- wtf, I wouldn't run php without Suhosin on a server 19:30:42 what does Suhosin do? 19:30:58 ais523, http://www.hardened-php.net/suhosin/ 19:31:41 AnMaster: it works fine with suhoshin. 19:31:51 however, if you read, it tells you why 19:31:56 suhoshin disables a core feature that is needed to do openid 19:31:58 heh, their site has a dotted underscore on every instance of "PHP" which pops up a tooltip saying "Hypertext Preprocessor" 19:32:45 ais523, for SQL and URL too 19:32:47 hm 19:33:13 it wasn't really the repetition that got me so much, but the fact that the tooltip is wrong 19:33:42 ais523, what does PHP stand for then? 19:34:01 I think it may be "PHP Hypertext Preprocessor" nowadays, not sure though 19:34:12 and it used to be? 19:34:17 Personal Home Page 19:34:21 haha 19:34:37 "PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor" according to Wikipedia 19:34:39 so I'm almost right 19:35:24 AnMaster: Can't really find much from the XHTML spec either -- I mean, the legal syntax is there, but it doesn't seem to say much about the semantics of meta. 19:35:38 ah 19:36:30 In contrast, HTML 5 draft does specify that if there is a http-equiv="content-type" thing, it must consist (case-insensitively) of the literal string "text/html;", then optional spaces and "charset=encoding"; it can't be used to change the type to something non-HTML. 19:36:52 well obviously, if it isn't HTML it doesn't conform to the HTML 5 spec 19:37:27 think of it this way: would it make sense to specify in the spec for INTERCAL, say, "If an INTERCAL program contains the string BLUE HAIR NOW, it is actually not an INTERCAL program"? 19:37:47 Yes. Definitely. 19:38:01 but the spec would then be contradicting itself 19:38:06 I think it's a nice almost-paradoxy thing that should optimally cause something more interesting than just working the way common sense says it does. 19:39:04 Which is perfectly appropriate for an INTERCAL spec, within limits. 19:39:35 hmm... retrograde comments would be really useful 19:39:45 which allow you to comment backwards to the start of the program 19:39:52 so you can put anything you like before them 19:39:57 the last one in a program is the only one that counts 19:40:05 because the others are commented out 19:41:07 ais523, err, parsing would be painful :/ 19:41:14 not really 19:41:21 scan backwards for the first comment delimiter you find 19:41:25 then discard everything before that 19:41:28 as a preprocessing phase 19:41:35 ah hm 19:43:07 that leaves only the question of keyword. i suggest EXTERMINATE 19:45:28 with optional hyphens 19:46:57 if this channel what DnD what alignments would you say the different people here have? 19:47:03 s/what/was/ 19:47:17 (for the first occurrence) 19:47:38 Usually by default it will replace the first occurrence only since you didn't add the 'g' modifier. 19:47:46 it's the first appearance by default, you have to do something like s/^(.*)what/$1was/ to get the second 19:47:57 fizzie, indeed, but I wanted to be extra clear 19:48:43 optbot: 19:48:43 KingOfKarlsruhe: 'if' is a function 19:49:05 optbot: in lua? 19:49:05 ais523: except copy-on-write, but that just delays the blit 19:49:19 hmm... that was probably me who said that 19:49:23 when discussing how fork() works 19:49:27 optbot: your wisdom is beyond compare 19:49:28 oerjan: you could not infect OpenBSD boxes with it, though 19:49:44 heh, that combination makes sense 19:49:49 optbot: you only run on Linux then? 19:49:50 oerjan: also the world's best imperative language. 19:49:59 -!- fungot has joined. 19:50:02 that is obviously C 19:50:05 * AnMaster runs 19:50:11 OpenBSD is secure against everything, even optbot's wisdom 19:50:11 ais523: lament 19:50:21 fungot: anything to add to this? 19:50:22 ais523: its only as difficult as it might be that i only just learned it 19:50:55 fungot is definitely chaotic here 19:50:57 oerjan: fnord fizzie damned if i know 19:51:18 fungot: but are you good or evil? 19:51:19 ais523: fnord these fnord i learned the term. people usually don't stop. 19:51:46 fungot: Or neutral? 19:51:47 fizzie: every language an fsa recognizes can easily be poked to change their habits, even in fnord stores. 19:52:02 I don't think we have many fnord stores around here. :/ 19:52:18 it uses the evil word (albeit defectively), the answer should be obvious. 19:52:29 fizzie: you should so fill up fungot with logs from #nethack 19:52:30 ais523: of course, but i 19:52:47 tusho: "Warning: implode() [function.implode]: Bad arguments. in /home/tusho/www/tusho.net/id/MyID.php on line 1569" still 19:52:59 ais523: Hmm, maybe I should also be there too if it's that good. 19:52:59 AnMaster: don't load that page then, it's an internal page, so shut up 19:52:59 fungot: is 'if' a function ? 19:53:00 KingOfKarlsruhe: chicken has something like that 19:53:02 it's not linked anywhere 19:53:05 tusho, ah ok 19:53:14 http://tusho.net/id/ is my OpenID. 19:53:25 MyID.php is phpMyID, an OpenID implementation. 19:53:33 you're accessing it directly so it's not getting the config 19:53:48 tusho: what username and password should I put in there? 19:53:52 ais523: mine. 19:54:00 if you don't know it, well, why are you trying to log in as me? 19:54:05 ah, ok 19:54:09 so it's a login just for you 19:54:26 I put tusho.net in an OpenID box, it gets, from the headers, a link to http://tusho.net/yadis 19:54:29 fungot: wasps 19:54:29 oerjan: let's go start a flamewar to cure your boredom), 19:54:32 which contains a link to http://tusho.net/id/ 19:54:44 so it uses that as my openid server 19:54:49 and that's how i can login as tusho.net 19:55:29 fungot: YOU ARE A RUBBISH BOT! HAH! EAT FLAMES,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,eheheheh... 19:55:30 ais523: has scheme only 26 levels of recursion 19:55:49 fungot: I doubt it 19:55:49 fungot: LIES 19:55:49 ais523: feel free to type the slash. 19:55:50 oerjan: i dont know 19:55:58 fungot: I doubt it/ 19:55:59 ais523: why don't you try it out with some language settings might convert ( quote red) 19:56:37 http://tusho.net/ 19:56:46 ^ an xml file rendered via xsl generating html 19:56:58 fungot: a box has in the vicinity of London subway stations like a banana 19:56:58 oerjan: no ignorance at all, really 19:57:00 hoorah for advanced semantic web technology 19:58:09 tusho: is your web page sentient yet? 19:58:14 oerjan, btw I think we all are more or less chaotic in here, or we wouldn't like esolangs ;P 19:58:20 oerjan: no, but approaching it 20:01:27 we're all chaotic by AnMaster's standards, but AnMaster is positively lawful compared to most of us 20:01:40 ais523, I say you are lawful in certain ways 20:01:44 definitely 20:01:45 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire..."). 20:01:49 yes, agreed 20:01:57 I'm pretty lawful in some ways and chaotic in others 20:02:00 probably everyone is 20:02:03 yeah 20:03:23 http://tusho.net/ now looks pretty cool, too! 20:03:39 now just to add my IM accounts and i'm done 20:03:54 tusho, does the openid have to be an url? 20:04:01 yes 20:04:08 -!- ais523_ has joined. 20:04:08 hi ais523_ 20:04:10 an http uri 20:04:19 tusho, ah no uri then? 20:04:36 http://openid.net/get/ says "URI" under "Roll Your Own" 20:04:47 so 20:04:49 :/ 20:05:01 tusho, I want urn: OpenID ;) 20:05:01 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:05:13 http:// uris are uris 20:05:15 so it is a URI 20:05:18 it just has other constraints too 20:05:22 besides, it couldn't validate urn: openids 20:05:24 the point is it has to communicate 20:05:28 so that it can validate that you are you 20:05:39 (specifically, that you own the openid you entered) 20:12:08 tusho, what happens if you ever change domain? 20:12:16 will that block the accounts you have? 20:12:22 AnMaster: Yes. 20:12:23 Don't. 20:12:23 I prefer normal username and password then 20:12:35 Everything expires. 20:12:40 Username and password are no more durable. 20:12:42 Also. 20:12:47 Your OpenID doesn't have to be in the same place. 20:12:47 tusho, yes they are 20:12:54 tusho, hm? 20:12:59 It can change as long as the URI containing the pointer to it stays the same. 20:13:01 well, I set my PGP key to a two-year expiry 20:13:08 because I don't expect to control my email address beyond then 20:13:17 ais523_, yes I have 3 years 20:13:23 You could switch from a livejournal ID, say, to myopenid.com, to a self-hosted one 20:13:25 and keep the same URI 20:13:31 and then I will add a new id and revoke the old id, on the same key 20:13:33 as long as that URI stays up 20:13:35 as long as you change the location it points to as a openid 20:13:39 AnMaster: most services let you do that 20:13:44 you login with an openid and create an account 20:13:50 later, you can associate a different openid with that 20:13:54 and then login with that instead 20:13:55 tusho, hm... 20:14:05 Accounts on each servers, but only one login. 20:14:18 Admittedly, it'd be a hassle to change them all, but hopefully that URI doesn't change often enough for that to be a problem... 20:14:25 tusho, what about fallback login with user/pass 20:14:30 Why? 20:14:39 Although yes, most services allow that too. 20:14:50 tusho, because I think I will control my user/pass way better than a openid 20:14:55 an openid can change 20:15:02 a domain get sold 20:15:03 Why? It's all your obligation. 20:15:04 or whatever 20:15:10 A domain gets sold if you let it expire yourself. 20:15:21 tusho, I may not have the money 20:15:27 at some point 20:15:31 who knows 20:15:32 AnMaster: Fine, so switch your openid on things just before the domain expires. 20:15:45 tusho, no I just prefer normal user/pass 20:15:51 it is a nice idea yes, but.. 20:15:54 Ahh. "It's better because it's better." 20:16:03 tusho, eh? 20:16:08 I do like the openid idea 20:16:09 yes 20:16:13 but it have some flaws 20:16:19 like the one I mentioned 20:16:23 Not the ones you're mentioning, though. 20:16:36 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 20:16:38 tusho, it is *one* of the flaws 20:16:47 tusho, involving a third party is another 20:16:58 Third parties are not involved. 20:17:08 Only if you explicitly do so by using an openid host. 20:17:22 Notice: Undefined variable: commenter_portrait_url in user/themes/tusho-blogs-2/post.php line 52 20:17:27 oerjan: Aware. 20:17:29 tusho, yes but the majority of the users don't have their own servers or their own domains 20:17:40 AnMaster: So then they have to use a third-party, just like they would have to for any service. 20:18:09 tusho, not if the site they want to login on uses user/pass 20:18:18 Yes - the third party is the site. 20:18:26 tusho, no that is the second party 20:18:33 AnMaster: a year ago reddit's database got hacked. 20:18:38 Turns out they stored passwords in plaintext. 20:18:42 So everybody's password was stolen. 20:18:49 They did it so they could offer a 'forgotten your password' feature. 20:18:49 tusho, well that would affect *one* site 20:18:56 Sometimes, third parties are more trustable than second parties. 20:19:15 tusho, and forgotten your password should reset pass to a random string 20:19:19 I know i'd trust an established openid host by the company that created openid and is endorsed by tons of people & organizations 20:19:27 over some random site I want to use. 20:19:47 tusho, a company can go bankrupt 20:19:57 or have server issues and be down when you need to login 20:19:59 Everything can fail. 20:20:05 It's a question of what fails the least. 20:20:12 while user/pass just depends on the site you want to login on 20:20:21 it won't block logging in on other sites 20:21:06 much less damage done 20:21:17 I am too busy to continue this, as always I'll point you to #openid for further discussion. 20:21:30 tusho, a hacked password affects *one* site 20:21:38 always use different passwords for different sites 20:21:39 always 20:21:45 #openid 20:21:57 well there was that big controversy in the US recently where someone 'hacked' Sarah Palin's email, by guessing the answer to her password reset question IIRC 20:22:00 (I just looove it when AnMaster does something in direct ignorance of my last message one message after) 20:22:12 ais523: It was a guy from /b/, incidentally. 20:22:17 yes, I'm not surprised 20:22:28 ais523, yes but it would not affect all her other services. Only her email 20:22:41 ais523, while with openid it would allow access to *many* services 20:22:51 hmm... OTOH, OpenID would prevent there being easily guessable reset questions in the first place 20:22:59 so it's all a matter of balances everywhere 20:23:06 ais523, reset option shouldn't be easy 20:23:21 no, but it was 20:23:49 it should require sending to your email which I admit is hard for an email account, but then I suggest a phone call is needed from the isp to the customer to reset pass for that 20:23:54 it is the only sane way for email 20:24:23 and not voip phone but real landline phone 20:24:54 AnMaster: that'd fuck me over a few years ago, then 20:25:00 admittedly, i agreed to being 13 or over... 20:25:14 but i was incredibly shy (even more so than now) and, er, my voice was obviously not 13 :P 20:25:15 tusho, hm? 20:25:33 tusho, well no solution is perfect 20:25:45 a solution is don't forget your password. 20:25:52 but then I'm sure that could be explained for a human 20:26:21 tusho: well people can still fire off the password reset questions even if the account's password is forgotten 20:26:31 as many times as they like, often... 20:26:33 ais523: because they're trivial for anyone 20:26:51 in some places I've had to set up reset questions 20:26:56 but they let me pick my question 20:27:03 ais523, yes that sucks 20:27:04 so I made it hard, obscure and without context 20:27:14 i make my question 'what is your mothers maiden name' 20:27:18 when they force you to 20:27:18 and the answer iudfshsdiufhlsdfijaklsdhaksehu3iqey2378hny78qwjycd89asi8dmnuqwe 20:27:24 :P 20:27:25 it was something not very important, so I designed it so my family could guess it and nobody else could 20:27:30 you know, just in case... 20:27:38 tusho, I hope that isn't the real one ;P 20:27:47 AnMaster: depends on my entropy at the time... 20:27:53 tusho, ah right 20:27:54 if you seed my random-finger-basher the right way... 20:27:55 :D 20:28:12 also, the security questions normally have restrictions on them 20:28:15 I think Gmail has a sneaky feature in that the password reset question is only enabled if the account has not been used for five days; so if you actively use your account, no-one can use the reset feature; and if you really forget the password, you just have to wait a few days. 20:28:28 which means the right answer doesn't get through their weak-password-detector 20:29:20 tusho, actually that is rather predictable, a human will distribute about half the key presses on the left and the right side, and on average every other key press alternate between right and left side iirc 20:29:30 not perfectly but on average 20:29:34 AnMaster: what-everrrrrrrrrrrrr 20:30:24 AnMaster: you still need the keyboard layout ;-) 20:30:35 also two key presses after each other tends to be different keys 20:30:42 Error loading stylesheet: An unknown error has occurred () 20:30:45 helpful 20:30:56 tusho: more so than "Error: no error" 20:31:29 oh and repeating the key like abab is rather common 20:31:53 and the answer iudfshsdiufhlsdfijaklsdhaksehu3iqey2378hny78qwjycd89asi8dmnuqwe <-- no 'aa', but a few 'abab style repeats 20:32:00 'abab'* 20:32:01 sruq894ue98tjmf98ujirkuioaua89w4k09e8rsah7ye8a95jye6897hyyujmriouj89048dk89es7kru8txinjcv dhjkzsu98ra7ik8sdiopufjdnvm hsektufy978 20:32:18 tusho, more random in that aspect ;) 20:32:31 still quite a few abab style 20:32:36 just "head -b100 < /dev/urandom" 20:32:46 | uuencode if you want it printable 20:33:02 I use head of urandom then filter it through tr 20:38:46 ais523: any ideas why http://tusho.net/ doesn't render?brb 20:39:08 http://rafb.net/p/quAcgw35.html 20:39:23 tusho, I get "Error loading stylesheet: (null)" in firefox 20:39:25 in Konq I get all the text 20:39:27 but nothing else 20:39:30 no formatting or anything 20:39:35 just a list of text, one after another 20:40:04 20:40:10 tusho, does that file exist? work? 20:40:45 hmm... are you using XSLT to convert FOAF into XHTML? 20:40:57 tusho, validating the style sheet gives "no doctype found, will only check well-formedness" 20:41:03 and then "document is well formed" 20:46:12 back 20:46:26 ais523: hmm... are you using XSLT to convert FOAF into XHTML? 20:46:26 yes 20:46:29 AnMaster: no it's an xsl problem 20:46:31 not xml syntax 20:46:55 tusho, yes very likely 20:47:12 uh i already knew all that 20:47:12 tusho, I just tried to check the basics 20:47:15 :P 20:53:21 xsltproc gives rather better error messages than browsers, IIRC; at least that (or some other command line tool from libxslt or something) was what I used when writing a relatively complicated html-with-xsl thing few years back. 20:54:17 XPath error : Undefined namespace prefix 20:54:17 xmlXPathCompiledEval: evaluation failed 20:54:17 runtime error: file foaf.xsl line 47 element value-of 20:54:17 XPath evaluation returned no result. 20:54:18 oicccccccc 20:54:28 ... 20:54:32 WHICH NAMESPACE PREFIX YOU FUCKER 20:54:33 ;_; 20:54:34 ah 20:54:36 line 47 20:54:40
20:54:43 Oh. 20:54:45 rdfs 20:54:48 :-P 20:55:42 hoorah 20:55:42 http://tusho.net/ 20:56:14 ^ possibly the most semantically advanced URI for a personal homepage evar 20:56:44 A FOAF document processed via XSLT into XHTML and in the headers a Pavatar header and a YADIS pointer (also gives YADIS via Accept header) 20:56:48 the YADIS contains a link to my openid. 20:56:52 Beat that. 20:57:35 what's that picture in the corner? 20:57:39 tusho, what is the olb tag for? 20:57:47 oerjan: my avatar 20:58:00 AnMaster: Protip - when faced with unknown schemas, go to the namespace URI 20:58:03 (xmlns:olb) 20:58:12 http://purl.org/vocab/bio/0.1/olb 20:58:15 One-Line Bio 20:58:19 for foaf:Persons. 20:58:26 tusho, you like answering oerjan but why not try to act decent towards me too? 20:58:33 that could help :P 20:58:43 AnMaster: oerjan's question wasn't answerable by trivial research on his own 20:58:45 yours was 20:58:49 :P 20:59:11 tusho, in this case sure, but I noticed that if ais523 asks something googable you respond 20:59:20 while that isn't true if I ask 20:59:22 * oerjan is still wondering what the picture _is_ 20:59:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:59:34 (of) 20:59:34 oerjan: i can show you the entire picture if that might help 20:59:45 I ask Googlable stuff on IRC all the time, I'm better at using IRC than I am at using Google 20:59:46 aye 20:59:58 tusho, yes I wonder what it is too 20:59:59 oerjan: http://tentaclerapture.com/uploads/AccountPictures/a0c941ca5f6d27efb1008e61f473813f.jpg 21:00:03 Figure it out from that. 21:00:04 asking someone who knows is more reliable than asking a search engine that's being manipulated by thousands of people across the world 21:00:17 i hope it's not related to the site name... 21:00:30 oerjan: no :P 21:00:38 ais523, agreed 21:01:55 tusho, hm what is that site you linked about, the main page is just an anonymous login page heh 21:02:23 AnMaster: All the information that is wished to be exposed about that site is on the front page. 21:02:29 You will note the footer includes a reference to some forum software. 21:02:37 tusho, yes? 21:02:39 oerjan: can you tell what it is yet 21:02:46 AnMaster: That's all you're getting, then 21:02:48 no 21:03:01 oerjan: that black hole is my chair 21:03:05 look behind it 21:03:07 should give some context 21:03:10 tusho, but if it was a link to phpBB would it be related to the site using it? 21:03:15 * AnMaster cloicks 21:03:17 clicks* 21:03:21 AnMaster: no 21:03:24 C-INTERCAL 21:03:25 it just tells you that it is a forum 21:03:34 *C-INTERCAL 21:03:37 ais523: googlebomber! 21:03:41 tusho, doesn't say what the forum is about 21:03:46 i see something that _might_ be part of a guitar 21:03:47 AnMaster: no, it doesn't 21:03:53 as I said, the front page is all the info you're getting 21:04:00 if there was more info wished to be exposed, the front page would include it 21:04:02 oerjan: corect 21:04:04 *correct 21:04:09 tusho: corrected 21:04:18 tusho, who are "we"? 21:04:18 the bump in the top-left is a television 21:04:29 AnMaster: I never used the word 'we'. 21:04:41 tusho, ah misread than 21:04:42 oerjan: and the bottom-right thing, which my av comes from, is an imac box 21:04:43 with stuff on. 21:04:48 AnMaster: But 'we' would be the members. 21:05:20 tusho, and what is that site above since you are a member. Really bad style not even saying "invite only forum about " on the main page or such 21:05:41 AnMaster: Can't you grasp the concept of "We don't want to tell you anything, go away"? 21:05:46 That is the concept that the main page conveys. 21:05:53 yes and that is bad style IMO :P 21:06:11 Yes, but your world of good style conflicts with human nature. 21:06:21 In this case, the want of secrecy. 21:06:34 oerjan, the guitar I can see, but apart from that nothing 21:06:39 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 21:06:43 I believe ais523 knows what it is due to discussions I've had with him of the development of a custom piece of software for it. 21:06:44 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:06:54 AnMaster: top left bulb is a tv 21:06:58 bottom right thing is an imac box with stuff on it 21:07:11 tusho, what sort of lights did you use? 21:07:13 that part of it, blown up, looks neat. 21:07:20 AnMaster: photo booth glow effect 21:07:24 it was dark at the time 21:07:27 tusho: you should have copied the photo elsewhere first 21:07:31 to avoid this discussion 21:07:40 ais523: it was spur of the moment 21:07:43 if you have a http://secretwebsite.invalid, why link it? 21:07:48 I was messing with photo booth 21:07:50 oh 21:07:51 you mean 21:07:53 about tr.com 21:07:57 yes 21:07:59 and because that's where the image was conveniently 21:08:10 i linked to a file incidentally on the secret site 21:08:19 besides, i'm all for it being linked to 21:08:20 confusion is fun 21:08:34 tusho: shall we move this conversation over to ##a-cow? 21:08:51 yes 21:13:04 o_O 21:13:16 is that secret too :D 21:13:20 yes 21:13:34 it must be, as I linked it here 21:13:48 true, true 21:14:37 * oerjan wonders if there is any language where word duplication is the usual means of negating 21:15:50 -!- Slereah2 has joined. 21:16:24 oerjan: That's a really really good idea. 21:16:40 oerjan: Usenet 21:16:42 but that's tripling 21:16:53 ais523: hm? 21:17:08 alt.barney.dinosaur.die.die.die and so on 21:17:11 you know they love him really 21:17:26 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:17:39 ah 21:17:50 alt.lucas-arts.star-wars.jar-jar-binks.die.die.die 21:18:03 er 21:18:13 alt.fan.starwars.jar-jar-binks.die.die.die 21:18:17 i'd say the evidence is - inconclusive :D 21:19:09 i recall there is alt.fan.swedish-chef.bork.bork.bork or something close 21:19:29 which may be the trope starter 21:19:50 context.noun.verb.verb.verb is pretty common, iirc 21:27:52 -!- kar8ng1 has left (?). 21:32:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 21:37:03 who has IE 21:37:12 I'm sitting next to a computer with IE installed 21:37:25 if you don't mind waiting 10 mins or so for it to log in, I'll try 21:37:29 ais523: how badly does tusho.net fail in it? 21:37:30 :P 21:37:48 ah, wait 21:37:51 i think a friend can check 21:37:58 unsurprisingly it fails in lynx 21:38:01 I've started logging in now, thoughh 21:38:05 could you check in w3m, perhaps? 21:38:06 it workes in Epiphany over here 21:38:07 don't have it here 21:38:08 won't compile 21:38:15 ah, the friend can't do it with IE anyway 21:38:29 w3m tries to download 21:38:38 unsurprised 21:38:57 AAAAARGH! 21:38:58 i mean, w3m is unlikely to contain an xslt implementation :P 21:39:08 AAAAAAAAARGH? 21:39:16 s/\?/!/ 21:39:27 ais523: esplain :O 21:39:39 OK, first, unexpectedly, it works perfectly in IE7 21:39:51 ... wow 21:39:51 just as well as in Epiphany 21:39:55 O_O 21:40:06 well I have a lot more respect for IE7 than I did a minute ago... 21:40:13 second, they've set up the computers here so now there are no roaming profiles 21:40:21 all computers have temporary settings which are lost on logout 21:40:27 finally, they 'upgraded' to Word 2007 21:40:31 which is a bad sign 21:40:36 what's wrong with word 2007? 21:40:41 probably Microsoft forced it on them though, there's far too close an agreement 21:40:45 i've heard a lot of good things about it and the negative things have been very vague 21:40:55 e.g. i like the idea of the ribbon 21:40:57 tusho: it encourages people to save in formats they can't use, for one thing 21:41:01 as for the ribbon, it's missing the point 21:41:03 of toolbars 21:41:11 the ribbon replaces menus adequately 21:41:19 but then you don't have quick access to the things you need 21:41:29 one line of toolbar is enough, you can find everything else on the menus 21:41:38 Nielson had the ribbon as one of the best UI innovations of recent years 21:41:40 with ribbons you just get giant menus you can't hide and no toolbars 21:42:04 but I'm most annoyed at the compatibility breakage, really 21:42:44 Word keeps getting "cleverer" and "cleverer" 21:42:53 to the point it becomes almost unusable due to all the things it's doing automatically 21:42:54 docx sucks, indeed 21:43:09 things like Smart Tags 21:48:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I am. 21:52:28 the profiles thing is annoying because it means I have to live with XP's interface 21:52:37 or else reset it to Windows 95's every time I log in 21:52:47 probably I'll just stick to Linux, it's less hassle 22:24:24 -!- jix has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:24:34 -!- jix has joined. 22:27:04 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 22:28:02 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:29:33 night 22:42:18 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 23:08:19 -!- jix has quit ("CommandQ"). 23:17:56 I don't suppose you're here any longer, but does http://zem.fi/g2map/index.cgi/Travel/2007/Lieksa happen to work in IE? I'm a bit surprised if it does, since I didn't really test it with that at all. (Wrote that thing last summer for some GPS-synchronized photos, haven't bothered to take more.) 23:18:15 it would look suspicious logging on this late to test one website in IE 23:18:23 I'll try some time later for you if you like 23:18:50 Well, if you feel like it. It's nothing important, though. 23:19:06 in that cases I'll try iff I remember 23:19:13 s/cases/case/ 23:20:24 fizzie: I only have IE6 on Wine, but suffice to say that it doesn't seem to work. 23:21:17 Working in IE6 would be even more surprising than IE7. 23:22:31 I assume that if it does happen to work in IE7 you'll fix that? 23:24:07 I guess I could, although I doubt anyone stumbles upon it, probably not very many (if any) links to it. I think using the Google Maps Javascript stuff gets me some free portamability, since some mouse-click events are registered with GEvent.addListener() which probably does IE-support-magic. 23:25:15 And actually now that I look at the Javascript, there's even some "if (window.addEventListener) { addEventListener(...) } else { attachEvent(...) }" type code, which might mean I've made some half-assed attempts to make it work. 23:40:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:57:00 fizzie: lolwut@those directions 23:57:17 ah 23:58:16 -!- ais523 has quit ("9").