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03:45:45 <oc2k1> Update on the BF computer idea: It looks like a (synchronous) up/down counter needs the same number of gatter like a adding unit
03:46:41 <oc2k1> in that case it would be thinkable to wire a nibble fromt the code tape to that unit
03:48:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Not bad..
03:49:00 <oc2k1> the next step would be to replace the condition == or != 0 by <0 (save the comparision unit, because only the MSB contain that state)
03:55:06 <oc2k1> Maybe it's not the idea to minimize the functionality, but the hardware
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09:48:13 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | C guarantees 32 KB of auto storage, I wonder what it guarantees on nested function calls..
09:48:18 <optbot> Mony: I know that bf is turing complete but I needed to prove that it was possible to do
09:57:00 <fizzie> I wonder where that 32k number comes from; can't seem to find it in C99, the closest thing is "65535 bytes in an object (in a hosted environment only)" in the limits section.
09:57:13 <fizzie> optbot: Do you know where it came from?
09:57:22 <optbot> fizzie: And I thought C++ was bad
10:04:34 <fizzie> optbot: I'm not seeing any guarantees about storage in the C++ standard either, although I might have missed something, it's so long.
10:14:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, url to fungot again please?
10:14:08 <fungot> AnMaster: very good chance. i called it a gallery
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10:16:30 <fizzie> I just updated it, so you might want to refetch.
10:16:49 <fizzie> Or hmm, did I? Not sure.
10:17:01 <fizzie> I was almost certain I had gotten rid of the NULL usage, but apparently not.
10:17:16 <Keymaker> i mainly stopped to advertise a new language i added to esowiki; figurehead: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Figurehead
10:17:20 <fizzie> Maybe I just thought about it.
10:17:25 <Keymaker> just in case nobody visits that wiki
10:19:25 <oklopol> Only sequences of two or more of the same character are count, that is, only they cause computation to happen. <<< i think it's "counted"
10:19:49 <fizzie> It could also be "count" without the "are".
10:20:20 <oklopol> Loops may be nested, and a same loop sequence used later. <<< i can't parse this at all
10:20:42 <oklopol> count without are is better
10:20:57 <oklopol> i'm only correcting up to grammar
10:21:08 <fizzie> s/a/the/ maybe, but what else is wrong with the loop thing?
10:21:39 <Keymaker> like that if there is loop sequence "aaa" (not sure if spaces show up here) can be used again after it's used, like aaaBBBaaaBaaaBBaaa
10:21:57 <Keymaker> not very clear :D B marks | in that
10:22:24 <fizzie> That's how I parsed it.
10:22:34 <Keymaker> yes, but i was talking to oklopol
10:23:00 <Keymaker> so at least i wasn't completely unclear, then, maybe :)
10:23:52 <oklopol> s/a/the/ fixes it, yes, i'm being a bit pedantic atm, not even trying to fix the error myself
10:24:40 <oklopol> that's a somewhat interesting language, the memory is actually a set?
10:24:57 <oklopol> or, well, you could have a register for each ||...|, and just inc/dec it
10:25:58 <Keymaker> but i don't know what the memory is, technically. new values go to end and also when loop begins it takes value from end, but values are removed beginning from left/start
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10:27:03 <oklopol> well, it doesn't really make much difference where the values are removed
10:27:41 <oklopol> what i'd suggest is a way to run multiple threads, and do multiset operations on the threads when they stop executing
10:27:42 <Keymaker> it makes to keep it deterministic. if they were removed randomly, which i first did, the loop instruction might work differently
10:28:52 <Keymaker> imagine stack 2 3 2 and then you remove 2 randomly :)
10:29:13 <oklopol> so basically what was last incremented
10:29:34 <oklopol> you could have it be a stack, and have that as like a separate rule... except it wouldn't work for nested rules
10:29:48 <oklopol> so okay, it can be a stack, i won't complain.
10:31:53 <Keymaker> can you try the interpreter to see if it works?
10:32:39 <AnMaster> Keymaker, interesting language
10:48:27 <Keymaker> well, hopefully someone will try the interpreter and minsky machine translator and find some "use" for this language. i must get going
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12:26:11 <oklofok> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
12:26:58 <Slereah> Stop it. You sound like a parrot.
12:27:03 <oerjan> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
12:46:52 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ...
12:47:06 <fizzie> There's a complex task, automated.
12:51:12 <oerjan> you have two digit numbers but not three? :D
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12:51:49 <oklofok> it's not polite to mock, oerjan
12:52:06 <oklofok> fizzie can't help it if he's an incredible moron
12:52:26 <oerjan> i thought you were being serious there for a moment
12:52:39 <fizzie> Where would a three-digit number go there?
12:52:45 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Aaaaaaah.jpg
12:52:46 <Slereah> I think Spiderman just shat on my graph.
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12:53:29 <fizzie> It only eats plain old brainfuck as input, so there are no numbers at all.
12:53:40 <Slereah> I have no idea what just happened.
12:53:40 <Slereah> They're supposed to be orbits.
12:54:07 <oerjan> ah so it is compressed after the fact
12:54:35 <fizzie> Yes, it is turned into a bytecode form, and the "show" command just sticks numbers there instead of repeating the characters.
12:54:42 <oerjan> Slereah: i think you generated a black hole somewhere
12:54:43 <fizzie> ^def test bf ++++++++++
12:55:44 <fizzie> There should also be some clear correlation in http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/a_mess.png but it's not happening.
12:55:52 <fizzie> If we're comparing graphs here.
12:57:27 <oerjan> at least Slereah's is a bit pretty
12:57:33 <Slereah> I think I know what happened.
12:57:57 <oerjan> yeah you've got a cumulus at the center
12:58:07 <Slereah> If I reduce the plotting range, I get clearer figures
12:58:25 <Slereah> But they're full of angles, for some reason
12:58:35 <Slereah> Though they're supposed to be ellipses
12:58:59 <oerjan> fizzie: no that's yours
12:59:36 <oerjan> Slereah: a bit large delta somewhere?
13:00:13 <Slereah> Part of the code was stolen
13:00:26 <Slereah> From there : http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/TheCelestialTwoBodyProblem/
13:00:57 <Slereah> I can see the deferent circles now :D
13:01:05 <Slereah> Let's reduce the range once more, see what happens!
13:01:25 <oerjan> oh you mean the time range?
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13:02:46 <fizzie> Reduced a bit too much, eh?
13:03:02 <oerjan> yeah if it gets around the orbit in less time than your resolution and just uses lines between neighbors..
13:04:33 <fizzie> Heh, my public_html directory at work is pretty much just a list of graphs that have made me go "huh?". Like in http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/comp.png where methods 1 and 2 were supposed to give pretty much identical results.
13:05:33 <fizzie> I would provide some if I remembered it.
13:05:42 <oerjan> looks more like inverses...
13:06:04 <fizzie> I think it's the output of abs(fft(x)), though, since the X range seems to be 1:129.
13:06:46 <oerjan> oklofok: it's based on tracing honey bees with infrared lasers
13:07:08 <oerjan> or with ultraviolet ones
13:07:20 <oerjan> the difference is because bees can see UV
13:07:21 <fizzie> Thanks, that was better than what I would have come up with.
13:08:40 <oerjan> plus that the bees explode if the IR is turned to high
13:09:18 <oklofok> heh, i kinda lolled @ reading lazy executiong as "crazy execution"
13:10:18 <oerjan> being beaten to death with soft white bread
13:10:30 <oerjan> it's fun the first couple hours
13:10:47 <oerjan> the bread must be changed regularly when going stale
13:11:09 <oerjan> and this actually is not my invention
13:11:24 <oklofok> i think i've heard it before, i mean the soft white bread part
13:11:39 <oklofok> if it's actually called "crazy execution", then i didn't know that
13:11:57 <oerjan> it was just an example
13:12:55 <oerjan> there _has_ to be a monty python example. or several.
13:12:58 <oklofok> perhaps crazy execution could refer to opening both threads at every branch, and only using the result of the actual branch after both are done
13:13:50 <oklofok> purely crazy languages cannot be tc, obviously
13:15:06 <oerjan> languages that take longer to run than the lifetime of the universe come to mind
13:15:19 <oklofok> if we have a jump backwards
13:15:28 <oklofok> then execution will always take infinite time
13:16:18 <oklofok> i guess you could have instruction that change the code
13:17:15 * oerjan changes his mind after reading properly
13:18:05 <oklofok> yeah if it doesn't matter that not all threads are done, it's basically just a... crazy way to do execution
13:19:40 <oklofok> nice, this book assumes the reader knows what "intractability" is, but not what a "file" is
13:19:57 <oklofok> made for the hardcore computer scientist i see
13:20:22 <AnMaster> "the trait of being hard to influence or control" according to google's define:
13:20:51 <oklofok> AnMaster: an intractable problem is one that cannot be done in polynomial time, consult oerjan for exact definition, in case this is inaccurate
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13:26:44 <oklofok> and also thanks for demonstrating my point
13:26:57 <oklofok> ...i'm assuming you have a faint idea what a "file" is?
13:29:04 <oerjan> 'record in a public office or in a court of law; "file for divorce"; "file a complaint"'
13:29:50 <oerjan> also according to google
13:30:10 <oklofok> that's not "a file", that's "file"
13:30:23 <oerjan> that's what define file gives
13:31:01 <oerjan> 'a set of related records (either written or electronic) kept together'
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13:31:30 <oerjan> 'a set of related records (either written or electronic) kept together'
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14:42:46 <tusho> Fuck, I do not understand this:
14:42:48 <tusho> def f_callcc(env, cc, f):
14:42:48 <tusho> # this is a kind of wacky way of doing this
14:42:48 <tusho> return ev(cons(f, cons(cons(symbol("quote"), cons(cc, nil)), nil)), env, cc)
14:43:00 <tusho> Well I might understand it.
14:50:58 <oerjan> that first argument to ev seems to be `(,f ',cc) in backquote notation iirc
14:58:19 <oerjan> technically i think i'd've wanted `(',f ',cc) or a direct application
14:58:44 <tusho> ev(code, environment, continuation function)
14:58:54 <oerjan> tusho: you don't understand backquote notation?
14:59:14 <tusho> it evals `(,f ',cc)
14:59:26 <tusho> the quote just because otherwise it'll try and evaluate a continuation and get confused, think
14:59:45 <oerjan> which seems like it would evaluate f twice
15:00:01 <oerjan> since it's probably already evaluated
15:00:08 <tusho> oerjan: functions are self-evaluating
15:00:16 <tusho> and `(f ',cc) wouldn't work
15:00:19 <tusho> since f is a python var
15:00:27 <oerjan> are you checking that it is a function?
15:01:42 <tusho> oerjan: i don't think you understand...
15:01:46 <tusho> that function declaration is the definition of callcc
15:01:49 <tusho> in the lisp-in-python i wrote
15:02:03 <tusho> and just found today
15:02:15 <oerjan> sure, and i just don't think you are checking that it gets a function as argument :)
15:02:30 <oerjan> it's not a big deal though
15:02:43 <tusho> oerjan: i think it gets f unevaluated.
15:02:56 <tusho> so it will be a symbol or a list or whatever, and needs to be evaluated
15:03:05 <tusho> (call/cc (lambda ...)) i think itd get (lambda ...)
15:03:25 <oerjan> um lambdas are self-evaluating too
15:05:03 <oerjan> except it might not be called directly, call/cc is not a special form
15:05:27 <oerjan> so it could be called in some higher-order fashion, with things already evaluated
15:05:48 <tusho> should i just give you the whole source so you can tell me how bad i messed it up :D
15:06:15 <tusho> that will shut you up!
15:06:45 <oerjan> tusho knows my weak points - i must add him to the List
15:06:52 <oerjan> whoops, did i say that aloud?
15:08:13 * oerjan refuses to believe tusho took that seriously
15:08:21 <tusho> i take everything seriously
15:09:05 <tusho> [ehird:~/Code] % grep 'return ev(cons(f, cons(cons(symbol("quote"), cons(cc, nil)), nil)), env, cc' *
15:09:21 <oerjan> those > smileys look really weird when you try to interpret them upside down
15:09:38 <oerjan> or was that the right way?
15:09:52 <tusho> oerjan: it should be :| with a > eyebrow formation
15:10:01 <tusho> but >: with a | eyebrow formation is good too
15:10:39 <oerjan> i take that | more as one of those student hats...
15:10:59 <tusho> pyscuit/pyscuit.py: return ev(cons(f, cons(cons(symbol("quote"), cons(cc, nil)), nil)), env, cc)
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15:12:58 <tusho> It is a biscuit in code form.
15:13:03 <tusho> oerjan: http://pastebin.ca/1212330 MWAHAHAHHA
15:13:14 <tusho> raise KeyError # heh heh
15:13:15 <oerjan> what then is a biscuit?
15:13:26 <tusho> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscuit
15:13:34 <oerjan> what is the connection between biscuits and lisp?
15:14:20 <tusho> class alambda(object):
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15:16:26 * oerjan wonders if python does tail call optimization
15:20:18 <oerjan> so that interpreter won't either
15:21:07 <tusho> it doesn't have lambdas
15:21:09 <tusho> or control structures
15:21:14 <tusho> not exactly a full featured thing
15:23:01 <oerjan> i think callcc and other functions get their argument evaluated - that seems like the purpose of evlist
15:23:39 <tusho> possibly, possibly
15:24:02 <oerjan> but not macros, obviously
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15:48:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 2. Double.
15:59:16 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | ;].
16:01:23 <Slereah> optbot, destroy the internet
16:01:24 <optbot> Slereah: into executable programs compatible with the Windows/Intel operating kluge.
16:11:55 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:12:48 <tusho> Slereah: optbot, destroy the internet
16:12:48 <tusho> [16:01] optbot: Slereah: into executable programs compatible with the Windows/Intel operating kluge.
16:12:49 <optbot> tusho: but im not sure where you're going with alloca and all..
16:12:49 <optbot> tusho: a halt-checker is obviously grape two
16:12:53 <tusho> that second line was said by me
16:12:58 <tusho> quoting the manual of the Plain English programming language
16:17:06 <ais523> so, who does smilies like ;], I wonder?
16:17:09 <fizzie> optbot: What does "grape two" mean?
16:17:20 <ais523> so just 2 in other words
16:17:21 <optbot> fizzie: i meant for data.
16:17:40 <fizzie> Optbot's discussion is always so insightful.
16:31:11 <fizzie> Um, for any specific reason? I don't want to get up from my chair and look for the phone just for nothing.
16:31:27 <ais523> oklofok: in which country?
16:31:35 <ais523> I don't even think 04 is a legal prefix for a phone number over hee
16:31:51 <ais523> also I don't have a phone on me right now
16:31:54 <ais523> and also I don't own a phone
16:32:06 <oklofok> perhaps i should try clicking on another channel
16:34:10 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | 4 5 6.
16:34:12 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I'm all for it if he writes the interpreter for my Andrei Machine 9000..
16:34:41 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | but convickt does most of the work.
16:34:45 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://thedailywtf.com/forums/thread/31621.aspx MY BRAIN!!!.
16:34:45 <fizzie> My guess is that it's some sort of esoteric language interpreter telephone system thing. You type in brainfuck with the numbers 1-8 and it will text-to-speech read the result.
16:35:20 <oklofok> it was actually as mundane as just finding my phone.
16:35:37 <oklofok> but something like that would be quite fun
16:35:44 <fizzie> Ohhh. Well, I could've done that if you had assured me that no-one was going to answer the phone and electrocute me through it.
16:35:59 <fizzie> Maybe I should make fungot answer my phone. What do you say, fungot; want to be an answering machine?
16:36:11 <oklofok> i might've hypnotized you and made you fall unconscious.
16:36:24 <oklofok> but, too late, as i found it; now some sleeping ->
16:36:49 <fizzie> fungot: Was that a "yes" or a "no"?
16:36:49 <fungot> fizzie: the jvm doesn't, but could you do such a good medium for this kind of stuff
16:37:44 <fizzie> I don't think I'm getting through.
16:40:53 <ais523> <fizzie> My guess is that it's some sort of esoteric language interpreter telephone system thing. You type in brainfuck with the numbers 1-8 and it will text-to-speech read the result.
16:40:56 <ais523> I really like that idea...
16:41:52 <fizzie> Maybe someone stranded on an uninhabited island, without a computer (but with a working phone) could pass the time while waiting for the rescures by writing brainfuck to the beach sand and then using that telephone service to execute it.
16:42:07 <fizzie> And that's just one possibility!
16:42:24 <ais523> unfortunately a useful BF program would probably take too long to write in
16:44:12 <fizzie> Hmm, well, maybe the fungot answering machine is a better idea, then; at least someone terminally bored on a long bus trip or something could call it for some "conversation".
16:44:13 <fungot> fizzie: has bad lambda support if you ask it, but it
16:45:03 <ais523> a fungot answering machine would be great
16:45:03 <fungot> ais523: yeah, for instance,
16:45:07 <ais523> or even an optbot answering machine
16:45:07 <optbot> ais523: !i 1 This is a test!\n
16:45:27 <ais523> if someone phoned you and you weren't in they'd hear a random line from #esoteric text-to-speeched
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16:46:15 <fizzie> Unfortunately I'm not quite sure I can implement it on my phone, since I don't think the J2ME mobile-Java-thing has the necessary APIs to actually answer phone calls, and I really don't want to touch the Symbian side.
16:46:29 <fizzie> I don't have a fixed land-line style phone line here. :/
16:46:56 <ais523> also, http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/t/10150.aspx is excellent, and apparently genuine
16:47:31 <fizzie> Yes, the "Daa Cener" was everyone's favourite last night.
16:48:28 <fizzie> Didn't check it out, and seems to work correctly right now -- but at least there are screen caps, it seems.
16:49:34 <ais523> probably the guess that somehow the backslash got lost from a regex removing \t seems the most plausible
16:51:35 <fizzie> Yes, although I'm not quite sure why someone would want to remove tabs from the site. Saving a dozen bytes doesn't sound like it.
16:54:07 <AnMaster> ais523, if I want to learn some Lisp, what variant would you recommend?
16:54:31 <ais523> I don't really use Lisp, and when I do I just use whichever interpreter I can get my hands on most easily
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16:54:39 <ais523> which in practice has normally been emacs-lisp, which is not quite the same
16:54:53 <ais523> Scheme's good theoretically, but is really a different language from Common Lisp
16:55:08 <ais523> you might want to ask tusho; he uses Lisp-like languages a lot more than me
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16:59:10 <oklofok> AnMaster: i'm no tusho, but it think you should read SICP, READ IT NOW
16:59:52 <AnMaster> oklofok, where can I find a copy?
17:00:13 <fizzie> Everywhere; a friend of mine bought 20 pieces of SICP and gave them to people.
17:00:16 <oklofok> it's online, and you can buy it from amazon, that's all i know
17:00:48 <tusho> AnMaster: to find out where to get sicp, read sicp
17:00:56 <oklofok> fizzie: where do you find these friends who dispense computer books?
17:01:06 <oklofok> tusho: right, right, as i said, i'm no tusho.
17:01:18 <tusho> after all these years...
17:01:18 <AnMaster> oklofok, and that is why I didn't ask tusho
17:01:43 <ais523> I should so put a paragraph in the C-INTERCAL manual explaining where to get the manual
17:01:49 <ais523> which says "Here, look, you're already reading it..."
17:01:55 <tusho> AnMaster: every time you complain about the quality of my answers you get 10 more annoying answers queued up
17:02:14 <fizzie> oklofok: A fellow student at HUT was that. And I guess the SICP-distribution was mostly because the local book store sold their SICP pile for something like 2 eur/book when HUT stopped using Scheme for teaching.
17:02:44 <oklofok> 1. why was i not there when that happened 2. did they change it to java?
17:03:14 <fizzie> oklofok: Don't know about 1, but yes, they did change it to Java. Although I think at least one of the introductory courses does Python now.
17:03:32 <oklofok> we had an introductory course in python when i took it
17:03:59 <fizzie> People kept complaining the Scheme course was too hard.
17:03:59 <tusho> java has its usecases
17:04:01 <tusho> but it's like comic sans
17:04:13 <tusho> humans just can't seem to get it into their heads WHAT the appropriate usecases are!
17:04:17 <tusho> so we need to ban it.
17:04:46 <oklofok> fizzie: i hate those people, just fyi
17:05:01 <AnMaster> tusho, what about ARC and PHP?
17:05:38 <tusho> AnMaster: those have no good use-cases
17:10:30 <ais523> tusho: appropriate use-case for Java is when you need to write an application which has portable complex UI
17:10:49 <tusho> ais523: watch people say 'java suckz for everything' because it's cool
17:10:58 <tusho> you could watch ... but everyone isn't talking
17:11:02 <tusho> so it'd be quite boring
17:11:20 <ais523> well, I think Java's paradigm is annoying
17:11:37 <ais523> it takes OO to too much of an extreme whilst missing out important bits of it
17:11:50 <ais523> and it does all sorts of weird hacks to get around the lack of multiple inheritance
17:12:07 <ais523> and it doesn't really have templates, not even in the version where they claimed to have added them
17:12:27 <ais523> Java's sort of a weakly-typed strong-OO language, and the two don't go together at all well
17:12:39 <fizzie> It's "generics", not "templates". It doesn't claim to have templates.
17:13:22 <fizzie> But it's not really the same thing, yes. It's a compile-time type system thing, not code-generation-thing like C++ templates.
17:13:45 <ais523> type bleaching, or whatever Java calls it, is really not a good idea
17:13:58 <ais523> the whole point of templates is to manipulate generic objects in a type-safe way
17:14:06 <ais523> Java's method is not type-safe, therefore misses the point
17:14:12 <fizzie> I think "erasure" was the term they use.
17:14:33 <ais523> you know information about an object's type, but ignore it...
17:16:41 <fizzie> How about C# generics, by the way? I don't know ~anything about it, but I think it's quite close to Java, except that they don't throw away the type information at run-time.
17:19:28 <ais523> I don't know anything about C# generics either
17:19:42 <ais523> Microsoft would have to be pretty stupid to make them worse than Java's, though
17:24:21 <tusho> C# is a lot better than Java
17:24:27 <tusho> C# 3 has loads of functional programming features and stuff.
17:24:30 <tusho> EVen lightweight lambda syntax.
17:24:46 <tusho> I'd like to learn it sometime, it sounds a really nice language.
17:26:47 <oklofok> i read a book about it once
17:27:25 <oklofok> but it didn't talk about lambdas
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17:28:32 <tusho> oklofok: probably an older version
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17:55:06 <tusho> where is ihope when you need him
17:57:45 <AnMaster> so if you want help you can ask
17:57:52 <AnMaster> was a while ago I last programmed in it
17:57:59 <AnMaster> but C#'s generics are pretty nice
17:58:01 <tusho> i'd probably end up using a lot of 3.0 features though
17:58:05 <tusho> since that seems when they added all the fun stuff
17:58:16 <AnMaster> tusho, those I don't know anything about except what I read
17:58:27 <AnMaster> LINQ and such does sound cool I agree
17:58:53 <AnMaster> and yes the generics are type safe in C#
17:59:02 <AnMaster> I'd say they are even pretty sane
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18:05:05 * oerjan declares the optbot topic idea to be a strike of genius
18:05:06 <optbot> oerjan: Well I figured out how to abuse it
18:05:14 <oerjan> optbot: you can say that
18:05:41 <oklofok> oerjan: was it tusho's or yours?
18:06:02 <tusho> the idea in the actual topic
18:06:14 <tusho> oerjan: do you mean optbot
18:06:14 <optbot> tusho: that would explain a lot
18:06:15 <tusho> or the current topic
18:06:29 <optbot> oerjan: that'd be even easier
18:06:42 <oerjan> i haven't read the link yet
18:06:52 <oerjan> although i expect amusement
18:08:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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18:10:04 * oerjan swats tusho and ais523 in one fell swoop
18:10:19 <tusho> oerjan: well i am glad that optbot is such a hit :P
18:10:19 <optbot> tusho: Somehow I just became encased in stone or something.
18:10:24 <optbot> tusho: So the only valid programs are @[.@] and @[@.]
18:10:30 <optbot> tusho: Anyone get a chance to look at the file link I posted above?
18:10:33 <optbot> tusho: Of1ffUf]Ou,>,f[f^f_f,#+,+,+,+,+,+,f+f,f+f,f+f,f)f,>+wfnfgffUfWfVfSfgD$ffUf]fffUf]f)fg:T$uf1,8tfUf]ffZf[f^f_f]ffUfWfVfSf,gD$f<fHfvf1f1fff(f@ff(f(ff1f(f+(ffgffffuifff fuWfuGu;fgfSu+f(fBfgfBf(g:dJgBdf@gBfEfFf<^gfD$fffYf[f^f_f]fx86-64i%d86This kernel requires an %s CPU, but only detected an %s CPU.
18:10:40 <ais523> <optbot> tusho: Anyone get a chance to look at the file link I posted above?
18:10:41 <optbot> ais523: do you guys use usenet?
18:10:48 <ais523> quite ironic given that optbot put a link in the topic
18:10:50 <optbot> ais523: Ö is an excellent one-character smiley 8-D
18:10:57 <ais523> and yes, I do use usenet
18:11:02 <oerjan> optbot: not any longer
18:11:03 <optbot> oerjan: In a well designed C program, you don't need casting.
18:11:53 <oerjan> what's IIRC and how do you use that...
18:12:27 <tusho> iirc=if I recall correctly
18:12:29 <tusho> but i think he meant IRC
18:12:41 <ais523> oerjan: I meant "I IRC", as in "I use IRC"
18:12:59 <tusho> at least oerjan's are easy to spot.
18:13:13 <oklofok> the best puns are the ones no one gets
18:13:51 <oerjan> oklofok: until long after they've caused a 50 page flamewar?
18:14:24 <oklofok> do people pronounce irc as [irk] or [aiaarsii] in america, or little america (and by that i mean britain)?
18:14:24 <oerjan> (page here is meant to be a medium-neutral term)
18:14:44 <ais523> in America I pronounce it as seperate letters
18:15:01 <ais523> presumably I pronounce it like that in America too
18:15:05 <ais523> but I've never been there so wouldn't know
18:15:21 <oerjan> in norway too, except it's [i Er se]
18:15:38 <tusho> irssi is a pun on the irc pronounciation from finland
18:16:21 <oklofok> actually i don't think anyone pronounces it like that, presumably because irssi is now the program
18:16:59 <oerjan> should have called it ERC instead
18:18:01 <oklofok> also it's one of those names that, unless the name of an actual person in context, are somewhat funny
18:18:25 <oklofok> i don't know why, but some names are funnier than others.
18:18:49 <tusho> erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki
18:18:55 <oklofok> i'm gonna go read now, see you in a thousand years
18:19:02 <tusho> erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki erkki
18:19:54 <oerjan> but then i shouldn't speak. some completely normal norwegian names are: Odd, Even and Bent
18:20:32 <oklofok> can't imagine a better way to go
18:20:38 <oklofok> speaking of which, i should
18:21:00 <oerjan> <oklofok> can't imagine a better way to go
18:21:09 <oklofok> "read new languages?", or just "new languages?"?
18:21:17 <oerjan> that usually has a different connotation
18:21:37 <oc2k1> erkki erkki -> looks like ook
18:21:57 <oklofok> it was more of a coincidence it looked like i tried to find a synonym for fine
18:21:59 <oerjan> oc2k1: you must not be familiar with oko yet
18:22:35 <oklofok> as opposed to saying something weird on purpose
18:22:35 <oerjan> hm it would be easy to make a BF <-> oko encoding
18:22:50 <oklofok> psygnisfive: what's the perfect amount of g-letters in a set?
18:23:05 <psygnisfive> whichever amount will get me into your bed. :O
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18:23:15 <oklofok> oerjan: o `append` (unary + s/0/ko)
18:23:21 -!- Slereah has joined.
18:23:27 <oklofok> psygnisfive: no, it's actually a few g's more
18:23:40 <oklofok> i'm still looking for the exact amount
18:23:46 <oklofok> aaaaanyway, i reaaaaally gotta go
18:23:49 <oerjan> oklofok: what the heck are you talking about and do i want to know?
18:24:33 <oklofok> oerjan: take an o, append a unary program with that s/// done upon its body
18:25:39 * oerjan doesn't like that encoding
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21:25:51 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers5/usa-usb.jpg
21:27:19 <GregorR> This appears to be a JPEG of ASCII art.
21:27:22 * Mony is now playing: Rammstein - Amerika
21:27:31 <GregorR> (With the exception of the USB logo)
21:27:39 <Mony> We're living in USA :p
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21:30:47 <Slereah> GregorR : Maybe it are from 2chan :o
21:31:27 <Slereah> Unicody ASCII art scenes with kittuns like that seem to come from 2chan
21:31:34 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando").
21:31:37 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/prettyboy2.jpg
21:31:58 <Slereah> And I'm not shaving my beard
21:39:47 <GregorR> I'm not falling for that twice >_<
21:40:21 -!- ihope has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:48:13 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | :P.
21:49:28 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no on hir.
21:49:32 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | _ is an underscore.
21:49:38 <Mony> _ is an underscore
21:49:43 <Mony> OMG ! that's true !
21:50:10 <Mony> ¯ is an upscore optbot ?
21:50:10 <optbot> Mony: if in (A B C ...), A is not a function
21:50:25 -!- Mony has quit ("À vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire...").
21:51:37 <Slereah> optbot, what happens then!
21:51:38 <optbot> Slereah: CUBSO perhaps? Completely Useless Binary System Output
21:51:57 <ais523> Slereah: what's the problem?
21:51:57 <tusho> that's shift-jis art
21:52:16 <tusho> probably from 2ch yeah
21:52:18 <ais523> someone ought to do mojibake art
21:52:25 <ais523> that actually makes sense in the original Japanese
21:53:30 <Slereah> I know it's not unicode, but I don't know the name of anything other than ASCII and Unicode
21:53:50 <Deewiant> I suppose you know your own name
22:00:30 * GregorR smashes his head into a wall.
22:00:44 <GregorR> Unicode is a character set, UTF-8 is an encoding. It can't be UTF-8 art.
22:00:58 <ais523> you could have URLencoded UTF-8 art
22:04:57 <Slereah> I don't know the difference.
22:05:22 <tusho> Slereah: unicode defines a bunch of characters
22:05:24 <tusho> and gives them a number
22:05:30 <tusho> UTF-8 tells you how you can put unicode into bytes
22:05:48 <Deewiant> UTF-n tells you how to put Unicode into n-bit bytes
22:06:03 <tusho> Deewiant: Things that matter: You are specifying more than them.
22:06:54 <Slereah> Does it matter since they're numbers? :o
22:06:55 <Deewiant> also, UCS-2 is like UTF-16 but can only encode up to Unicode 0xFFFF.
22:07:15 <GregorR> Slereah: UTF-32 is just Unicode numbers as 32-bit words.
22:07:20 <Deewiant> I forget how UCS-4 differs from UTF-32.
22:07:30 <Slereah> *What are the differences?
22:07:39 <Slereah> I mean, are they just smaller unicode sets
22:07:42 <Deewiant> In some very tiny way, I'm not sure if I've even looked it up.
22:08:01 <GregorR> I thought UCS-4 and UTF-32 were the same, although UCS-(<4) and UTF-(<32) weren't ...]
22:08:06 <ais523> Slereah: Unicode is not trivial to represent on a computer because the codepoints go up to 0x10FFFF
22:08:10 <tusho> Slereah: basically
22:08:12 <tusho> unicode characters
22:08:15 <Deewiant> Wikipedia sez: "Accordingly UCS-4 and UTF-32 are now identical except that the UTF-32 standard has additional Unicode semantics."
22:08:17 <tusho> are bigger than can be stored in 1 byte
22:08:24 <tusho> just puts e.g. NUL
22:08:26 <ais523> thus there are multiple encodings, which say how to store Unicode on a computer
22:08:26 <tusho> 000000000000000000000000000000000000000
22:08:28 <tusho> if you see what i mean
22:08:37 <tusho> "if the first bit is 1, this is just a regular 8-bit ascii char"
22:08:38 <Slereah> Stop saying words, I can't read
22:08:44 <tusho> "otherwise, look past this byte"
22:08:49 <tusho> "because it's WEIRD SHIT"
22:08:49 <ais523> tusho: actually utf-8 is first bit 0 for a regular char
22:09:02 <tusho> ais523: abstract: I am describing things in the it.
22:09:16 <ais523> and all the bytes of multibyte characters have top bit 1
22:09:20 <Deewiant> tusho: it, you are doing wrong.
22:09:33 <tusho> Deewiant: Care, I not do.
22:10:15 <Deewiant> tusho: compromised, readability is.
22:10:29 <tusho> Deewiant: Why, That's it I'm doing it.
22:13:23 <tusho> Deewiant: Crap, your compiler is.
22:14:36 <Deewiant> (length . filter (=="it") . words $ "That's why I'm doing it" == 1) == True
22:14:51 <Deewiant> (length . filter (=="it") . words $ "Why, that's it I'm doing it" == 1) == False
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22:22:34 <tusho> Slereah didn't say anything.
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22:23:57 <psygnisfive> See no Haskell, hear no Haskell, speak no Haskell
22:24:22 <Slereah> PURITY THROUGH PARENTHESIS
22:24:51 <pikhq> Dammit, Kmail, *stop sucking*.
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22:25:08 <pikhq> "Oh, look at me, I'm Kmail! I forgot how to send mail via SMTP!"
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22:28:39 <kmail> will you be my friend ( ﾟ ヮﾟ)
22:28:42 -!- kmail has changed nick to tusho.
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22:34:18 <pikhq> Kmail sucks balls.\
22:34:23 <pikhq> And not in a good way.
22:34:26 <ais523> it's pretty crazy, Evolution apparently uses my normal webmail interface via screen-scraping HTML
22:35:05 <ais523> tusho: that's how bad the Exchange protocols are, apparently screenscraping the webmail interface is easier...
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22:38:11 <pikhq> Easier still is using IMAP. :p
22:38:48 <ais523> well, if you aren't forced to use University-provided email
22:39:29 <pikhq> Exchange is also an IMAP server, though a lot of Exchange servers don't have that enabled.
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22:48:02 <tusho> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
22:51:21 * ais523 forgets that email can't contain the word From at the start of a line, and remembers again after sending a message
22:51:29 <ais523> hmm... there should be some transparent escaping for that
22:53:38 <ais523> mailers change it to >From
22:53:42 <ais523> and nothing changes it bacj
22:54:10 <tusho> ais523: check your email
22:54:36 <ais523> there are spaces at the start of the line
22:54:54 <ais523> which didn't come out over IRC
22:56:48 <ais523> ah, didn't come out at my end
22:56:53 <ais523> did you type right at the start of the line?
22:57:01 <ais523> in that case your mailer escapes differently from the ones I've seen
22:57:13 <tusho> spaces are superior
22:57:18 <tusho> 2. not parsed as a quote...
22:57:28 <tusho> your latest message looked odd to me
22:57:32 <tusho> because mail.app thought it was part of the quote
22:58:09 <tusho> AS WELL AS GLOBAL WARMING
22:59:02 <tusho> dolphins are finalnd
23:00:59 <ais523> gmail didn't escape at all
23:01:26 <ais523> presumably the server receiving would do the escape if needed to put the message into mbox format, then
23:03:12 <tusho> not escaping is sane imo
23:03:16 <tusho> its mbox's problem
23:03:33 <ais523> presumably Mail.app adds spaces so that mbox's broken escaping isn't needed
23:03:42 <ais523> a sort of client-side fix to a server-side problem?
23:04:15 <ais523> actually, the biggest problem is probably in the mbox format for using "\nFrom " as a message separator
23:05:14 <tusho> i think any client storing mail in anything but a database should be shot
23:05:39 <ais523> storing mail in a file allows the writing of a simple Perl script to parse it
23:05:40 <tusho> ais523: yeah but you're forced to use exchange
23:05:42 <ais523> and the format can be read by hand
23:05:42 <tusho> and exchange should be shot
23:05:51 <tusho> and yes, but there should be an index database
23:06:03 <tusho> a one-file-per-mail just-store-exactly-what-came-in with no organization directory
23:06:08 <calamari> who's to say that text files in a file system isn't a database?
23:06:12 <tusho> containing metadata and indexes for searching and such
23:06:18 <tusho> calamari: that is acceptable, but
23:06:22 <tusho> most clients don't treat it as a db
23:07:09 <calamari> no idea how ff3 stores cookies and cache.. so I couldn't tell you if my e-mail "client" uses a db or not :)
23:07:29 <ais523> calamari: you store your email in cookies?
23:07:46 <ais523> storing login details in cookies makes more sense
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23:33:26 <Slereah> http://angryflower.com/subset.html
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