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01:07:28 <pikhq> Well, that was bizarre.
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04:34:23 <pikhq> Maple sucks giant monkey balls.
04:41:21 <GregorR> Oh, the language, not the syrup.
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05:49:26 <pikhq> But Maxima is freaking awesome.
05:49:49 <pikhq> Therefore, my 'Maple project' shall be done entirely from Maxima.
05:50:10 <pikhq> Thank you, professor, for saying "if you're familiar with another program, feel free to use it."
05:59:25 <fizzie> Mathematica is nice, if you don't mind the evil capitalist proprietarynessity of it.
06:00:13 <slereah> I don't mind, as long as I get it for free
06:04:58 <pikhq> Mathematica might be nice.
06:05:12 <pikhq> Thing is, I actually have Maxima. ;)
06:05:21 <pikhq> And, of course, it helps that I know Maxima.
06:05:47 <slereah> What's the project anyway?
06:06:42 <pikhq> Just plotting some parametric functions in 2d and 3d. Kinda stupid.
06:07:05 <slereah> Do you even need any particular software for that?
06:07:14 <slereah> Any free plotting software can do that
06:07:35 <pikhq> The idea was to make you familiar with the computer algebra system.
06:07:56 <slereah> Hell, you could do it on a piece of paper!
06:08:16 <pikhq> Yes, except that he insists that it's done with a CAS.
06:08:40 <pikhq> Computer algebra system.
06:08:46 <pikhq> Maxima, Mathematica, Maple, etc.
06:09:14 <pikhq> All I learned about Maple from that is that Maple truly sucks.
06:09:55 <slereah> You might learn that Mathematica is also pretty terrible
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08:13:02 <pikhq> It seems that GNUplot, when generating Postscript, emits Postscript that computes the function being plotted.
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08:13:08 <pikhq> This will be fun to print out...
08:33:51 <fizzie> At least the printer will have something interesting to do.
08:34:02 <fizzie> I would think just printing text all day long would be quite boring.
08:35:40 <fizzie> Although my "set term postscript; set out "test.ps"; plot sin(x)" test just generated a list of vertices.
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12:55:26 <Deewiant> fungot, optbot: (Task -> Bool -> IO (Set String -> Set String -> Bool -> FilePath -> StateT DB (ReaderT Dat IO) Bool)) -> ([Bool],DB) -> Task -> ReaderT Dat IO ([Bool],DB)
12:55:26 <fungot> Deewiant: what in particular did you like? have you seen squeak?
12:58:23 <oerjan> i don't think they like Haskell
12:58:24 <fizzie> As always, optbot has a more coherent answer than fungot.
12:58:24 <fungot> fizzie: i guess plurals are out.
12:58:25 <optbot> fizzie: i could certainly have picked wrong with this one...
13:01:32 <ais523> fizzie: in this case, optbot also had a more coherent answer than Deewiant...
13:02:39 <optbot> oerjan: no one said the exact word.
13:03:33 <Deewiant> I was hoping for incisive comments about the type signature but fungot was just confused as usual and optbot decided to shut up
13:03:34 <fungot> Deewiant: ( lambda ( x)
13:04:04 <ais523> Deewiant: well that's some type signature...
13:04:12 <ais523> what is it the type signature of?
13:04:32 <Deewiant> "needsBuildingWithDB" in my make-replacement
13:04:41 <Deewiant> granted, I've expanded all the type synonyms
13:04:54 <Deewiant> it doesn't look like that in the code itself
13:05:06 <ais523> How does your make replacement work? How is it better than normal make?
13:05:15 * ais523 needs to figure out how to write AImake some time
13:05:22 <Deewiant> it's very much like make itself
13:05:29 <oerjan> optbot: you can do AImake can't you?
13:06:14 <Deewiant> 1) it's a haskell library so (I hope that) it discourages hard-coding actions like "rm *.foo" which are platform-specific
13:06:47 <Deewiant> 2) it can use either timestamps or MD5 hashes to figure out whether to build something, user's choice
13:07:20 <Deewiant> 3) it can save a database of arguments you've used in the build and then rebuild if the arguments changed
13:07:36 <Deewiant> other than that, it's pretty much make, I think.
13:07:45 <ais523> AImake is more ambitious
13:07:55 <ais523> the idea is to deduce everything about the project automatically
13:08:15 <ais523> so for instance it messes with ldd to see which files are opened to automatically calculate dependencies
13:08:17 <Deewiant> I still think that's impossible :-)
13:08:21 <ais523> so files have dependencies on your compiler and so on too
13:08:38 <ais523> and it uses nm to work out which sets of files have to be linked together to form an executable
13:08:42 <Deewiant> how do you know what kind of library to build, or whether to build one, given a pile of C?
13:08:49 <ais523> some things would be less general, and asking the user might be needed in some case
13:09:03 <ais523> and yes, that's an example where some user intervention would be needed
13:09:09 <Deewiant> so it can't deduce /everything/ after all ;-)
13:09:17 <ais523> but it would be as simple as either listing all the source files needed in the library
13:09:34 <ais523> or more generally, listing all the functions the library needed to implement and letting AImake find their sources
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14:27:30 <fizzie> oklocod: Re "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydelläänsäkäänköhän", I think some of those suffixes are both translateable and interesting. Like "-kään", which is sort of like "not even x": "aseella" -> with a gun, "aseellakaan" -> not even with a gun. (Example inspired by the recent school shooting thing.)
14:34:53 <oklocod> the question particle is hard to translate without context, but for instance "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydellänsäkäänköhän hän sai sen aikaan?" => "i wonder if he achieved it through his unsystematizing?" or something
14:35:14 <oklocod> "epäjärjestelmällistyttämättömyydellänsäkäänköhän hän sai sen aikaan?" => "i wonder if he achieved it through not unsystematizing?"
14:35:47 <oklocod> ("hän sai sen aikaan" means roughly "he achieved it", in case someone non-finnish is watching)
14:36:35 <ais523> also, I'm not entirely sure what unsystematizing means, despite being native English
14:36:48 <ais523> it seems to have too many suffixes piled on a word in a non-obvious way
14:37:02 <fizzie> ais523: Don't worry, we are native Finnish and don't seem understand that Finnish word either.
14:37:08 <oklocod> ais523: unsystematizing in pretty much any sense you can invent for it.
14:37:25 <oklocod> but, i'm not sure how "kään" + "köhän" works
14:37:45 <oklocod> köhän is a question particle you can only use on a word, to kinda wonder whether it fits there
14:37:51 <fizzie> It doesn't feel like it would work very well even in a simpler word.
14:38:08 <oklocod> well, it's like, a question, but more uncertain than a normal question
14:38:34 <fizzie> "näin" => "like this", "näinköhän" => "I wonder if it really goes like this".
14:39:12 <oklocod> i'm pretty sure you cannot have kään and köhän in the same sentence.
14:39:21 <oklocod> just cannot see how that would fit any sentence :|
14:39:40 <fizzie> (Well, for one meaning of "näin". It's also the first-person past tense of the verb "nähdä", 'to see'.)
14:39:45 <oklocod> "jalkakaankohan sinne ei mahdu"
14:39:53 <oklocod> i wonder if even a foot wouldn't fit there
14:40:30 <ais523> hmm... maybe Xkäänköhän = "it seems dubious that this couldn't even be done with X, is that right?2
14:41:12 <tusho> let's make a conlang again
14:41:13 <fizzie> Also I would have written it "jalkaakaankohan" which sort-of has the same meaning. I can't really explain the difference right now.
14:42:22 <fizzie> "Jalkakaan" sounds like "not even a particular, single foot", while "jalkaakaan" is more like "you can't even fit any part of a feet in there".
14:43:07 <oklocod> well, "jalkaa" is the partitive of "jalka"
14:43:22 <oklocod> so... yes, it means a part of the foot :P
14:43:33 <oklocod> it doesn't actually mean exactly that
14:43:45 <oklocod> because the finnish partitive is also used for plurals in certain contexts
14:45:46 <oklocod> "jalat" is the plural, "jalkoja" is the partitive of the plural, which kinda means "some feet", or just "feet" as opposed to "the feet"; "viisi jalkaa", five feet, would be the singular partitive, used when the amount is known
14:46:09 <oklocod> curiously, "yksi jalka", one foot, is singular nominative (neutral infliction)
14:46:17 <tusho> HEY GUYZ CONLANG #conteric
14:46:37 <oklocod> tusho: we can have just as muuch fun wondering what the fuck the finns were thinking
14:46:51 <tusho> oklocod: but this way we can have infinite loops in natural language
14:46:51 <fizzie> I'm not sure I want to be constructing a language since I don't even understand my own.
14:47:03 <tusho> fizzie: nor do I, and that's why this'll be hilarious
14:47:04 <fizzie> A uniter, not a divider.
14:47:21 <tusho> now get yer ass over there
14:47:22 <ais523> tusho: I define "whifllopn" to have a meaning as defined by this sentence.
14:47:29 <tusho> ais523: ... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
14:48:08 <oklocod> i want a natural language that's basically lambda calculus plus a lexicon containing sets of real-life objects and actions
14:48:22 <fizzie> oklocod: I think George W. Bush said that once.
14:48:33 <tusho> oklocod: Then #conteric is for you.
14:48:36 <tusho> AND FOR EVERYONE ELSE <333333333
14:48:48 <fizzie> oklocod: The "I'm a uniter, not a divider" one.
14:48:59 <tusho> i preferred the other interp
14:49:03 <tusho> oklocod: i want a natural language that's basically lambda calculus plus a lexicon containing sets of real-life objects and actions
14:49:03 <tusho> [14:48] fizzie: oklocod: I think George W. Bush said that once.
14:49:05 <ais523> hmm... if dubya was speaking in an English-like esolang and not English itself, it would explain a lot
14:49:16 <tusho> ais523: ...y...you're right...
14:49:24 <tusho> he's... actually a genius!
14:49:29 <tusho> just..misunderstood...
14:50:24 <tusho> ais523: No...like a fox...
14:50:35 <tusho> (Or a panda, if you stuff the two words together)
14:54:44 <tusho> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
14:55:21 <tusho> fffffffffffffffffffffffff
14:55:24 <tusho> fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
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15:38:03 <tusho> ofc we can talk though
15:38:12 <fungot> ais523: you also have this example of high-level code, which you say are so delicious. the white part of the committee, but it's
15:38:39 <ais523> 0-3 second ping times to #esoteric
15:38:48 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from cmeme: 1222958306 seconds.
15:38:56 <ais523> wtf is cmeme lying so badly about ping times?
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15:39:42 <ehird> ais523: probably it sends the eunuchs timestamp
16:13:44 <ais523> anyone who cares: the latest on the door situation is that they 'fixed' it and now it doesn't work at all
16:13:53 <ais523> so they're calling in engineers tomorrow
16:14:19 <ais523> meanwhile us people who have to use the computer lab simply make sure there's at least one person inside at any given moment
16:14:22 <ais523> to open the door from the inside
16:30:32 <ais523> raising elephants is so utterly ominous...
16:33:59 <ais523> ehird: it's a slight modification of a common Linux acronym
16:34:33 <ais523> "raising elephants is so utterly boring" is the acronym to remember how to reboot down a Linux system manually
16:34:47 <ais523> but in my case I've been using REISUO a bit recently
16:34:53 <ais523> to shutdown rather than reboot
16:34:58 <ais523> because things have been getting borked
16:35:14 <ais523> ehird: basically, you hold down alt, and press SysRq and the letters of the acronym alternately
16:35:34 <ais523> e.g. alt-sysrq-r-sysrq-e-sysrq-i and so on
16:35:44 <ais523> each letter tells the system to do something
16:36:05 <ais523> until after the u you have no programs running but the kernel, all the disks are set read-only, and everything's shut down gracefully
16:36:14 <ais523> at that point you have pretty much no choice but turn off or reboot...
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17:49:04 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Then you're Australian..
17:49:07 <optbot> ehird: i'm pretty sure someone will write my essay if i try for long enough
17:49:14 <ehird> optbot: that was oklocod
17:49:14 <optbot> ehird: that's portuguese, though.
17:49:18 <ehird> optbot: no. no its not
17:49:18 <optbot> ehird: until they started distributing tapes with the magazines
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19:58:31 <ehird> Nomination for Most Annoying Thing About a Default Linux Install:
19:58:48 <ehird> HI, I SEE YOUR COMPUTER HAS BEEN BOOTING FINE FOR A LONG TIME! I THINK THIS IS A REASON TO CHECK YOUR FILESYSTEM
20:00:13 <ehird> eihrd is a pronounciation nightmare
20:00:30 <ais523> I think I would pronounce it like "aired"
20:00:38 <ais523> but with extra aichiness before the r
20:01:22 <ehird> ais523: how do you pronounce ehird?
20:02:28 <ais523> anyway, I'm pretty happy with my project this year at university
20:02:32 <ehird> comex pronounces it ayherd
20:02:35 <ais523> it has esolang-like properties
20:03:09 <ais523> for instance, most operators like dereference, assignment, if, and so on, are very simple
20:03:17 <ais523> the main hangup is the duplicate operator
20:03:34 <ais523> (corresponding to : in Underload or [->+>+<<] in brainfuck)
20:03:50 <ais523> that's expected to take several months of study to implement correctly
20:04:02 <Deewiant> what on earth are you doing :-P
20:04:16 <ehird> .36666569843502..04=/0
20:04:20 <ais523> except compilation is software -> software
20:04:25 <ais523> and synthesis is software -> hardware
20:04:38 <ais523> unlike on a computer, you can't just get the hardware to make another physical copy of itself...
20:05:31 <Deewiant> so what are your source and target representations
20:06:53 <ehird> -psyBNC: Thu Oct 2 19:06:40 :connect from ai01-fap01.bham.ac.uk
20:06:54 <ehird> [20:06] -psyBNC: Thu Oct 2 19:06:40 :User ais523 logged in.
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20:09:22 <ehird> [20:09] -psyBNC: Thu Oct 2 19:09:15 :User ais523 logged in.
20:09:58 <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:06:52] <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:04:19] lt;ais523 gt; except compilation is software - gt; software
20:10:01 <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:06:52] <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:04:25] lt;ais523 gt; and synthesis is software - gt; hardware
20:10:04 <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:06:52] <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:04:37] lt;ais523 gt; unlike on a computer, you can't just get the hardware to make another physical copy of itself...
20:10:07 <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:06:52] <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:04:40] lt;ais523 gt; at least, not easily
20:10:11 <ais523> aargh, my pings still aren't returning quickly
20:10:15 <ais523> last time this happened I ended up without Internet for several hours and all my emails ended up in a random order
20:10:22 <ais523> [20:10] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 45 seconds.
20:10:26 <ais523> well, at least it came eventually
20:10:37 <ais523> fungot: let me know once you see this message
20:10:39 <fungot> ais523: http://cbs5.com/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord
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20:11:00 <ais523> so, any comments on this ridiculous concept?
20:11:08 <ais523> easy operators, near-impossible duplicate?
20:11:58 <ais523> ehird: is this some kind of new esolang?
20:12:01 <ehird> http://cbs5.com/fnord/fnord/fnord = 404
20:12:03 <ais523> it isn't a particularly productive comment...
20:12:08 <ehird> ais523: yes, it's IRP
20:12:19 <ehird> it confuses people and they do things
20:12:22 <ehird> its non-deterministic.
20:12:25 <ehird> adfskugk78wyavwa3gvaw4
20:12:33 <ehird> now it won't confuse you
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20:21:16 <Deewiant> 2008-10-02 22:05:24 ( Deewiant) right
20:21:17 <Deewiant> 2008-10-02 22:05:31 ( Deewiant) so what are your source and target representations
20:21:47 <ais523> well the bit I'm doing, they're both parse trees written in Ocaml
20:22:31 <Deewiant> where does the whole thing start and where does it end
20:25:04 <ehird> .....................
20:25:27 <Deewiant> ais523: consider ending all your messages with 'optbot' so you know whether it's coming through or not ;-)
20:25:28 <optbot> Deewiant: oh you should add continuations to Plof -- I'd write a continuations-based web framework in it and use it for everything :p
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20:26:31 <Deewiant> yes, it'll distract from all the other discussion here
20:27:05 <ais523> [Thu Oct 2 2008] [20:22:34] <ais523> for the project as a whole, it goes from an Algol-like 'functional' language (which behaves imperatively as no recursion but tail-recursion is allowed), to a very low-level hardware language which basically says where to put the gates
20:27:19 <Deewiant> 2008-10-02 22:25:27 ( Deewiant) ais523: consider ending all your messages with 'optbot' so you know whether it's coming through or not ;-)
20:27:20 <optbot> Deewiant: it would be like a programming language but specialized for quick calculator stuff.
20:27:26 <ehird> 01:03:00 * oerjan wonders if there would be a market for a song called "Rocking around Frostie the Red-Nosed Reindeer Roasting on a One-Horse Open Sleigh"
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20:29:20 <ais523> well, it was only a 30-second self-ping time this time (optbot)
20:29:22 <optbot> ais523: although allegedly that's more esoteric than other langs
20:29:34 <ehird> http://www.vjn.fi/s/brainfuck.mp3 I like this!
20:29:37 <ais523> yay, optbot agrees with me about the esotericness of my uni project
20:29:45 <ais523> ehird: what is that? Also, oklocod, what is that?
20:29:56 <ehird> ais523: an mp3 made by oklocod
20:32:02 <ehird> is infinitely applied cpp tc?
20:32:20 <ehird> if so, is it easy to make a file that changes for 10 runs
20:32:22 <ais523> there was an IOCCC entry once
20:32:25 <ehird> (counts as counting to 10)
20:32:35 <ais523> using identifiers that expand to #define
20:32:37 <ehird> without hardcoding 10
20:32:43 <ehird> ais523: i mean, actually some kind of loop
20:32:56 <ais523> ehird: well, the IOCCC entry worked by implementing an ALU in the preprocessor
20:33:04 <ais523> as in, actual digital logic with #defines
20:33:07 <ais523> so it would be kind-of complex
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20:56:28 * Asztal can now refer to himself as notable
20:56:54 <olsner> implements Notable? harr, harr
20:57:04 <oerjan> except, is olsner a reliable source?
20:57:47 <olsner> reliable? no. source? maybe!
20:57:53 <slereah> I wonder, can you put [citation needed] on the esowiki?
20:58:11 <ais523> slereah: well it's physically possible
20:58:15 <ais523> we don't have it templated though
20:58:20 <ais523> and esowiki doesn't actually need citations
20:58:28 <ais523> although we like to know them if they exist
20:58:33 <ais523> (the policies are different)
20:58:51 <slereah> "rjan Johansen is an esoteric programming language enthusiast from Norway. [citation needed]"
20:59:12 * ehird imagines such a thing
20:59:22 <ais523> well, I'd remove the [cn] as being pointless
20:59:31 <olsner> I think "because I say so" is an implied citation on anything not more explicitly specified
20:59:31 <slereah> "Esme is an esoteric programming language [citation needed]"
20:59:52 <ehird> <sup><nowiki>[</nowiki>citation needed]</sup>
20:59:54 <olsner> and it's good enough for me, since most of what is on the esowiki agrees with what I think anyway
21:00:06 <oerjan> many esolangs articles may count as speech acts...
21:00:09 <ais523> you don't need to nowiki the [
21:00:24 <ehird> ais523: yes you do
21:00:24 <ais523> because it doesn't form an external link unless the thing after the [ looks like a URI
21:00:28 <oerjan> because they are the main place defining the language
21:00:34 <ehird> <sup>[citation needed]</sup>?
21:02:19 <ehird> slereah: a great service
21:02:31 <ehird> your <sup> was stripped
21:03:36 <slereah> You are manly and beautiful, ehird
21:05:12 <slereah> Someone should sell [citation needed] stickers
21:05:54 <ehird> http://mazonka.com/ damn ... javascript clock, cursor-following trail and LIVE STOCK QUOTES
21:06:02 <olsner> slereah: someone probably already does
21:06:06 <ehird> it's... just like 1999
21:06:36 <ehird> http://wunumber.org/ ITT: Fragile, single-vendor GUIDs
21:06:46 <olsner> there was someone in the office working on a <marquee> bug from a customer the other week
21:08:17 <slereah> ehird : It's so not like 1999
21:08:25 <slereah> The background is too grey
21:08:29 <ais523> slereah: I'm almost certain someone does, and someone pretty famous too
21:08:43 <ehird> his name is randall
21:08:48 <ais523> sticking {{fact}} stickers on things became a meme on some well-known website IIRC
21:08:51 <ais523> forgotten which one though
21:08:53 <slereah> Well, I didn't see any on the xkcd store
21:09:04 <ehird> ais523: well, the Wikipedian Protestor by xkcd started it all
21:09:07 <oerjan> now i made a {{fact}} template
21:09:18 <ais523> yes, but it wasn't xkcd that did the sticker thing
21:09:19 <oerjan> guess where it links too
21:09:31 <ais523> oerjan: [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Citation needed]]?
21:09:37 <ehird> ais523: probably xkcd
21:09:44 <ais523> the policy that says citations aren't needed?
21:09:57 <ehird> ais523: yep its xkcd
21:10:10 * ais523 penalises ehird for starting a PoO inside a PoO
21:10:17 <ehird> should be factorial
21:10:40 <ais523> either that, or factorial / citation needed at random
21:10:54 <ehird> also oerjan i made your {{fact}} better
21:11:12 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/CUTLASS Hoax.
21:11:20 <ehird> (diff) (hist) . . CUTLASS; 12:55 . . (+697) . . 147.89.224.69 (Talk) (Added a few more details.)
21:11:20 <ehird> (diff) (hist) . . CUTLASS; 10:55 . . (+1,174) . . 147.89.224.69 (Talk) (Fairly major rewrite from someone involved in the Cutlass Kit 9 project! I hope this is useful.)
21:11:39 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=CUTLASS&diff=prev&oldid=6560
21:12:16 <slereah> Let's make an antisemitic esolang
21:12:24 <oerjan> hm these days there is a need for a BANKER esolang
21:12:36 <oerjan> it needs to blow up in a big bubble at the end
21:13:09 <ais523> also, why the lowercase s?
21:13:22 * ais523 imagines banging their head on a table
21:13:26 <ais523> just due to the timing of all that...
21:13:50 <ais523> I've had a complicated day
21:13:54 <ais523> doing busy things in RL
21:14:08 <ais523> tusho restarting my IRC bouncer half-way through
21:14:12 <ais523> meeting lots of people
21:14:19 <ais523> and AnMaster jumps in with an enthusiastic Hi!
21:14:22 <AnMaster> ais523, [citation needed] for that CUTLASS thingy
21:14:28 <ais523> which is just incongruous to the rest of the day
21:14:29 <ehird> AnMaster: why ais523
21:14:31 <ais523> ehird: the IRC bouncer I use
21:14:33 <ehird> he just ignored it
21:14:33 <oerjan> maybe banging your head on a pillow would be better then
21:14:36 <AnMaster> ehird, what is wrong with tusho?
21:14:40 <ais523> which you own, sort of...
21:14:49 <ehird> it was really tragic..
21:14:50 <AnMaster> ehird, he claimed before you died
21:15:01 <ehird> I... live in the shadow of his memoy.
21:15:09 <ais523> ehird: yes, Lisp going wrong when accessing the first element of a list is a real tragedy
21:15:11 <ehird> 2 Oct 2008: Never forget.
21:15:15 <ais523> current compilers should be able to handle that really easily
21:15:34 * AnMaster plans rewriting his custom bouncer in erlang
21:15:37 <ais523> AnMaster: actually ehird rebooted the server
21:15:37 <ehird> ITT: AnMaster brags about how he KNOWS ERLANG
21:15:46 <ais523> thus kind-of forcing the bouncer to restart
21:15:56 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe distributed cluster would help ;)
21:16:15 <ais523> well, the reason he restarted the browser was he'd basically done s/tusho/ehird/ in /etc
21:16:20 <ehird> ais523: no, you did that
21:16:25 <ais523> by getting me to edit it
21:16:26 <ehird> I did it in /etc/group and /etc/passwd
21:16:31 <ehird> and then that fucked up the system
21:16:32 <AnMaster> ais523, and why did he want to change the name?
21:16:33 <ehird> so you had to do the rest
21:16:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Because tusho died.
21:16:37 <ais523> no, you didn't even do it properly in /etc/group
21:16:40 <ais523> and the system was fine
21:16:43 <ehird> I told you - it was tragic.
21:16:47 <ais523> just you forgot to edit /etc/shadow...
21:17:19 <ais523> and the whitelist ssh used
21:17:25 <ais523> so a pretty comprehensive failed rename
21:17:31 <AnMaster> ais523, well some of use know Unix, seems tusho/ehird don't ;P
21:17:37 <ehird> AnMaster: no, blame ais523
21:17:41 <AnMaster> (maybe that will stop the spam and make him attack me instead)
21:17:42 <ehird> i asked him what i'd need to change
21:17:42 <ais523> ehird was left unable to log in about 10 different ways
21:17:45 <ehird> and he said just /etc/passwd
21:17:49 <ehird> because everything else used user ids
21:17:50 <ais523> ehird: well I said configuration files
21:17:55 <ehird> ais523: /etc/ssh/sshd_config
21:18:01 <ais523> and I said the file system used configuration files
21:18:07 <ais523> ehird: are you agreeing with me? How dare you!
21:18:22 <ais523> I said the file system used user IDs
21:18:28 <ehird> ais523: i can dig up logs
21:18:29 <ais523> but configuration files needed changing
21:18:35 <ehird> no, you kind of said that
21:18:37 <ehird> you said what happened first
21:18:39 <ehird> then sort of half corrected it
21:18:51 <ais523> and you went plowing on with the change
21:18:53 * ehird goes back to crying
21:18:58 <ais523> before stopping to wonder if it was a good idea...
21:19:00 <ehird> ais523: worked out in the end, didn't it
21:19:11 <ais523> I'll check back in a couple of years
21:19:14 <ais523> the end hasn't happened yet
21:19:23 <ehird> ais523: the lhc is turning on before that...
21:19:25 <ais523> hmm... the end probably won't have happened in a couple of years either
21:19:32 <ehird> failing that, try 2012
21:19:42 <ais523> also, I've seen an article arguing that the LHC won't create a black hole
21:19:56 <ehird> what a controversial opinion!
21:19:56 <ais523> but the large amounts of supercooled helium will cause the whole thing to spontaneously explode
21:20:07 <ais523> thus taking out most of the surrounding countryside
21:20:19 <ehird> http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html (turn on animated gifs)
21:20:19 <oerjan> that would be cool in several ways
21:20:27 <ehird> unless you've already seen
21:20:30 <ehird> in which case do nothing
21:20:47 <ehird> ok, turn on flash :-P
21:21:17 <oerjan> yeah the black hole thing is very theoretical, depending on extra dimensions beyond those currently known iirc
21:21:30 <slereah> Actually, they're trying to make the black hole
21:21:33 -!- danopia__ has quit (Connection timed out).
21:21:36 <slereah> Because it would be awesome
21:21:43 <ais523> oerjan: the black hole being created, or the black hole being avoided?
21:21:48 <ehird> They're trying to make FIVE HUNDRED GNOMES
21:22:00 <ais523> ehird: I can't turn on Flash, I uninstalled it
21:22:03 <slereah> But it only works with some requirement on the dimensions, yeah
21:22:08 -!- danopia__ has joined.
21:22:09 <ehird> ais523: yes you can - it just involves installing it first
21:22:10 <slereah> ehird : The Gnomes of Zurich?
21:22:17 <oerjan> as in, it's unlikely to require this low energy
21:22:59 <fizzie> Heh, at least there's something for the future archaeologists to wonder about, why there's a circular crater with a circumference of 27 kilometers. If it just old-fashionedly blows up and doesn't create those ALL-CONSUMING STRANGELETS.
21:23:00 <slereah> From what I remember, if you've got a bunch of dimensions, gravity would actually weakens much more quickly
21:23:07 <slereah> As it would seep into the other directions
21:23:09 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html (turn on animated gifs) <-- not gif
21:23:14 <slereah> So at short range, it would be stronger
21:23:19 <slereah> Permitting little black holes
21:23:22 <ehird> [21:20] ehird: it's flash
21:23:23 <ehird> [21:20] ehird: ok, turn on flash :-P
21:23:56 <slereah> The black hole would then evaporate, if Hawking's right
21:24:25 <oerjan> but if there are extra dimensions and Hawking's wrong, we might have a problem
21:24:47 <ehird> oerjan: but i thought that
21:24:55 <ehird> collisions like the lhc does happen in our atmosphere
21:25:08 <ehird> AnMaster: that wasn't a joke.
21:25:16 <ehird> slereah: rite then
21:25:20 <slereah> And even bigger reactions, too.
21:25:22 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:25:27 <ehird> AnMaster: what part of that was a joke
21:25:29 <oerjan> ehird: yeah there's that. but there's a technical doubt about the speed of the resulting particles
21:25:34 <slereah> IIRC, there was one around 10^20 eV!
21:25:42 <ehird> AnMaster: you have flash installed?!
21:25:48 <slereah> Which is... well, almost ten joules
21:25:50 <ehird> i don't believe it
21:25:55 <oerjan> because with cosmic rays the result always has a high speed, so might always escape earth's gravity
21:25:57 <slereah> Not enough to heat a cup of coffee, but still
21:25:59 <AnMaster> ehird, not on this computer, I did a remote connection to another computer that have it
21:26:03 <ais523> flash is the biggest portable security hole in existence
21:26:11 <oerjan> (for the energies needed for a black hole)
21:26:16 <ais523> hmm... portable holes,,,,,,,,,useful things............
21:26:17 <slereah> oerjan : The velocity might be towards earth
21:26:19 <AnMaster> ehird, and ran ssh + x-forwarding + 32-bit forefox
21:26:19 <ehird> ais523: blame macromedia
21:26:24 <AnMaster> ehird, is that complex enough for you
21:26:27 <ehird> they made it when the web was pure and virgin
21:26:38 <ehird> AnMaster: no but its laggy enough
21:26:54 <oerjan> slereah: but a microblack hole will interact only weakly so will go straight through the earth. it takes time to start growing.
21:27:02 <AnMaster> ehird, because I thought they were real webcams in the link first, if I had known they were jokes then I would have skipped it
21:27:08 <ehird> oerjan: someone calculated it
21:27:12 <ehird> oerjan: at the original turn on date
21:27:13 <ais523> I was laughing out loud continuously for about 10 seconds then
21:27:19 <ais523> when I heard about AnMaster's flash setup
21:27:25 <ehird> to explode everything
21:27:34 <ais523> luckily the lab is empty apart from me
21:27:36 <ehird> stupid delays, ruining stuff like that
21:27:47 <AnMaster> <ehird> ais523: blame macromedia <- adobe these days
21:27:50 <slereah> oerjan : Then we can send it
21:28:00 <ehird> AnMaster: yes but macromedia are probably responsible for it
21:28:05 <ehird> due to it being an old codebase
21:28:10 <AnMaster> <ais523> hmm... portable holes,,,,,,,,,useful things............ <-- since when are you Mike Riley?
21:28:10 <slereah> "Sending the threat to earth in space"
21:28:11 <ehird> and security stuff like that not being a huge worry back then
21:28:13 <ais523> hmm... I'm not sure whether to blame macromedia for inventing the format, or adobe for not fixing the bugs
21:28:25 <ais523> AnMaster: I decided to impersonate Mike Riley for a bit just for fun
21:28:33 <ais523> after the initial row of dots it was an obvious thing to do
21:28:39 <AnMaster> ais523, made no sense in that context?
21:28:50 <ais523> well the first 3 dots were natural
21:28:55 <ais523> then I just decided to keep on going
21:29:43 <AnMaster> ais523, also my flash setup is in fact more complex than that I fear
21:30:04 <AnMaster> ais523, since the linux with the flash runs under xen on that other computer
21:30:17 <ais523> Deewiant: by the way, my insane University project resembles Haskell a bit, Haskell uses types that can be correctly checked at compile time to enforce purity and monads and stuff, my project uses types to avoid race conditions and short circuits
21:30:57 <ais523> AnMaster: basically by having a type qualifier for every variable in the source code
21:31:10 <ais523> and saying that you can't call a function if the function and argument share identifiers
21:31:19 <ais523> if you have a global int foo
21:31:22 <ais523> that's used by function f
21:31:30 <ais523> then f(foo) types badly in the intermediate language
21:31:43 <ais523> but what I'm doing is a compiler to compile the source into a language that types well
21:31:52 <slereah> I didn't do esoshit in forever
21:32:01 <slereah> Maybe I should whip up that mu language
21:32:10 <ais523> which in this case would involve duplicating foo, or at least using two ways to get at it
21:32:20 <AnMaster> ais523, so a variable can't be used in a parameter list if it is also used as the global in the function body?
21:32:31 <ais523> AnMaster: not in the intermediate language, no
21:32:37 <AnMaster> ais523, if you have single assignment and no global variables, then the issue is solved :)
21:32:41 <ais523> however, more interestingly, functions are also identifiers
21:32:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:32:53 <ais523> and single assignment to functions is ridiculous
21:32:55 <ehird> YOUR STORRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEE
21:32:58 <ehird> VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY MAGICAL
21:33:03 <ais523> so f(g(x)) isn't allowed if f calls g
21:33:23 <ais523> my project supervisor forbids non-tail recursion
21:33:33 <ais523> recursion is kind-of tricky to synthesize into hardware
21:33:34 <AnMaster> ais523, err you can do tail that way
21:33:38 <ais523> without having a stack
21:33:46 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, in the original program
21:33:52 <ais523> this is a restriction on the intermediate language
21:33:57 <ais523> not on the original program
21:34:12 <ais523> I have to compile user-provided programs into programs that respect these conditions
21:34:29 <AnMaster> tail recursion between two functions
21:34:31 <ais523> so yes, you can do it in your head for a simple program
21:35:05 <ais523> yes, that's why I'm doing it as a year-long project for University...
21:35:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I guess you could transform non-tail recursion to some continuation passing style?
21:35:31 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the source language?
21:35:48 <ehird> AnMaster: ais523, this sounds very hard
21:35:48 <ais523> a custom one, which is basically just ALGOL with different syntax
21:35:48 <ehird> [21:35] ais523: yes, that's why I'm doing it as a year-long project for University...
21:36:09 <AnMaster> ais523, it is not even functional?
21:36:10 <ehird> Why 'eww' at algol.
21:36:16 <ehird> NOT EVEN FUNCTIONAL!
21:36:21 <ehird> Wait, you like C and Bash.
21:36:25 <AnMaster> ais523, that will be hard to translate
21:36:27 <ais523> AnMaster: it's confusing
21:36:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I wasn't responding to you
21:36:36 <ais523> it's imperative but translated into functional internally
21:36:44 <ehird> AnMaster: No, but you can't stop me commenting.
21:36:47 <ais523> except it doesn't have first-class functions, or at least it does sometimes, but not other times
21:36:49 <AnMaster> ehird, so.. don't try to interpret my response as an answer
21:37:04 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:04 <AnMaster> ehird, just read the line I said next
21:37:07 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:16 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, it is not even functional?
21:37:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> Wait, you like C and Bash.
21:37:18 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, that will be hard to translate
21:37:21 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:22 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:22 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:23 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:24 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:25 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:27 <ehird> I was making two seperate comments.
21:37:57 <ehird> You're the one with the burden of proof.
21:38:09 <ais523> next problem: trying to persuade engineers that this is difficult
21:38:11 <ehird> And considering I, being the one who made the statements, know what I intended...
21:38:27 <ais523> this is a genuine University project
21:38:29 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you mean? Your project is difficult yes
21:38:32 <ais523> that's half my mark for the year
21:38:44 <ais523> basically it's a programmer (me) helping a computer scientist implement what he's written in his papers
21:39:04 <ais523> software -> hardware compilation is great, anywya
21:39:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I suggest using llvm for that
21:39:23 <ais523> AnMaster: no, you don't get the point
21:39:27 <ais523> that's a bytecode interpreter
21:39:36 <AnMaster> ais523, it is a compiler to machine code
21:39:47 <ais523> hmm... even so, this doesn't use machine code
21:39:53 <ais523> it's much more like VHDL
21:40:02 <ais523> in fact I think they use Verilog as one of the intermediate languages
21:40:05 <ais523> well, the input is imperative
21:40:08 <ais523> but the output is VHDLy
21:40:18 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway llvm allows generating native code, or jit byte code
21:40:32 <AnMaster> you can use it as a great native compiler
21:40:43 <ais523> well, that's not really the point here
21:40:50 <ais523> llvm's still imperative -> imperative at the heart of it
21:41:03 <ais523> not imperative -> functional -> VHDLy
21:41:12 <ais523> I'm not even sure what the name for the VHDL paradigm is...
21:42:23 <AnMaster> ais523, I was just trying to clarify what LLVM was since you said "<ais523> that's a bytecode interpreter"
21:42:23 <ais523> hmm... "cross-paradigm compilation" sounds like it would make a good buzzword
21:42:51 <AnMaster> ais523, also from llvm byte code you can generate native code for several different plaforms
21:43:10 <ais523> still irrelevant, though...
21:43:32 <AnMaster> I heard it is even possible to generate the byte code so that the same byte code can be used to generate binaries for all the supported platforms. Though this isn't supported for the C frontends for obvious reasons
21:43:51 <AnMaster> (there are two, gcc-llvm, and the new clang)
21:44:09 <AnMaster> (clang is still in development, but works well, can compile cfunge, except it chokes on a system header)
21:44:16 <ais523> this channel seems to have developed into each person in a thread of their own
21:44:22 <ais523> kind of makes conversation difficult...
21:44:29 <AnMaster> ais523, could be because I'm currently ignoring tusho
21:44:45 <oerjan> tusho hasn't spoken in a while
21:44:45 <ais523> well tusho hasn't said anything since a few seconds after you ignored em
21:44:49 <AnMaster> ais523, since he couldn't behave wel
21:44:55 <ais523> either that or I ignored him to absent-mindedly
21:45:13 <ehird> tusho hasn't said anything for hours
21:45:17 <ehird> because tusho hasn't been online for hours
21:45:23 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't think that is a coincidence
21:45:31 <ehird> AnMaster: i can assure you that it is
21:45:36 <ehird> except, no, wait, I can't
21:45:38 <ais523> <ehird> AnMaster: i can assure you that it is
21:45:38 <AnMaster> ais523, and ehird didn't speak either?
21:45:40 <ehird> because you can't hear me
21:45:42 <ais523> <ehird> AnMaster: i can assure you that it is
21:45:46 <ais523> <ehird> because you can't hear me
21:45:52 <ehird> ais523: you missed
21:46:03 <ais523> ehird: I know I missed some lines, they weren't interesting
21:46:09 <ais523> and ehird was silent for ages
21:46:11 <ehird> ais523: tell AnMaster that i didn't spam it
21:46:13 <ehird> i only said it once
21:46:15 <ehird> you just pasted it twice
21:46:17 <ais523> after the spam and before we mentioned it
21:46:28 <ais523> ehird: you said it 7 times
21:46:34 <ais523> your referent of 'it' is probably wrong
21:46:38 <ais523> AnMaster is referring to your spam earlier
21:46:40 <ehird> ehird: AnMaster: i can assure you that it is
21:46:47 <ais523> <ehird> I was making two seperate comments. happened 7 times
21:46:50 <ehird> ais523: <ehird> AnMaster: i can assure you that it is
21:46:52 <ehird> ais523: <ehird> AnMaster: i can assure you that it is
21:46:56 <ehird> but he is not referring to that
21:47:01 <ehird> he is referring to your pasting the line just above twice
21:47:06 <ehird> and thinking that is because i said it twice.
21:47:11 <oerjan> THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT
21:47:18 <ais523> oh dear, this reminds me of those arguments by proxy people have sometimes
21:47:24 <ais523> I end up as the proxy far too often...
21:47:32 <ehird> ais523: AnMaster is accusing me of being a spammer because of one of your actions.
21:47:48 <ehird> Since I cannot correct him personally, I am telling you to do so, because being the one who caused him to accuse me of that, you seem like the best option.
21:47:58 * oerjan prepares to swat ais523 if he does more proxying ---##
21:48:13 <ais523> ehird: oerjan prepared to swat me if I did more proxying
21:48:33 <oerjan> JIIIHAAAD!!! ---## ---## ---##
21:48:33 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster: I said that ONCE. I did not spam it. ais523 just pasted it twice, for no reason. Do not accuse me of spamming. ~ehird
21:48:34 <fungot> AnMaster: I said that ONCE. I did not spam it. ais523 just pasted it twice, for no reason. Do not accuse me of spamming. ~ehird AnMaster: I said that ONCE. I did not spam it. ais523 just pasted it twice, for ...
21:49:02 <ais523> oerjan: is ---## a swatter
21:49:08 <ais523> or a wall with a corridor next to it?
21:49:13 <AnMaster> that was twice in that fungot command
21:49:14 <fungot> AnMaster: what's with all the bot abuse from your first solution, as long as needed
21:49:27 <ehird> ^echo I am using fungot's ^echo command.
21:49:27 <fungot> I am using fungot's ^echo command. I am using fungot's ^echo command.
21:49:33 <fungot> AnMaster: there exist an bijective map between the symbols used in other module systems, as a complete window manager written in scsh using 10 000 already
21:49:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: You know, fungot ^echo does everything twice.
21:49:42 <fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api
21:49:52 <ehird> ^echo fizzie: No, clearly it's my fault. ~ehird
21:49:52 <fungot> fizzie: No, clearly it's my fault. ~ehird fizzie: No, clearly it's my fault. ~ehird
21:50:01 <ais523> and is it any good for window manager writing?
21:50:08 <ais523> <fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api
21:50:09 <fungot> ais523: so many people over 10000: 1.2 seconds for both functional linear-update binary shuffle; 33 seconds for linear-update insertion shuffle; 80 seconds for functional insertion shuffle" at http://www.common-lisp.net/ paste/ results/ fnord
21:50:13 <ais523> is the best fungot line ever
21:50:13 <fungot> ais523: yeah like kernels...). inside that expression you have a question
21:50:27 <ais523> AnMaster: fungot seemed to think so
21:50:27 <fungot> ais523: just planning for the construction of a new macro
21:50:42 <ais523> and I don't care if that fungot line is verbatim from someone else, it's still great
21:50:42 <fungot> ais523: then a postgresql bug blotched the db up pretty badly.
21:51:18 <ais523> AnMaster: <fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api
21:51:36 <ais523> I wonder if that is verbatim
21:51:50 <AnMaster> ais523, also that said windows api
21:51:56 <ais523> it sounds just like what happens if you fuzz-test the Windows API
21:52:07 <fizzie> #scheme: [2006-09-23 07:52:58] < psykotic> three korean dudes are repelling off the skyscrape out of my window, washing the windows
21:52:15 <fizzie> It added the word "API" itself there.
21:52:21 <ais523> (the program you fuzz-test crashes badly because the calling inventions involve passing pointers around)
21:52:30 <ais523> s/inventions/conventions/
21:52:37 <ehird> http://www.thingspalincanname.com/
21:52:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, and the demons flying out?
21:52:53 <ais523> fizzie: ah, I know what happened, it started with the famous "it makes demons fly out of my nose" quote
21:53:01 <fizzie> And I'm pretty sure the demons part is one of the (common in comp.lang.c) reference to "demons flying out of one's nose" re undefined behaviour.
21:53:07 <ais523> but Markoved it into the windows API thing
21:53:18 <ais523> fizzie: yes, definitely
21:53:28 <ais523> and "windows API" is a common continuation of "windows"
21:53:36 <fizzie> Yes, "out of my" can be continued with "window" thanks to that psykotic quote, and I'm sure "the windows api" is somewhere.
21:53:49 <oerjan> fungot never misses the markov.
21:53:49 <fungot> oerjan: quite likely. there is, that's it?
21:54:07 <ais523> oerjan: oh dear, trying to fill your 97% pun quota up?
21:54:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, you were trying to make a pun?
21:54:46 <AnMaster> thought it was just semi-random comment
21:54:51 <ais523> the sentence doesn't make sense any other way
21:54:54 <fizzie> I should have a "^explain" command so that it could give an explanation like that, but it'd again bloat the language model.
21:54:54 <ais523> but it's obvious as a pun
21:55:39 <ais523> AnMaster: "never misses the mark" is an English idiom
21:56:05 <AnMaster> ais523, quite fun actually then
21:56:07 <fizzie> Bloating the code is just a good thing, makes it a more impressive Funge-98 program.
21:56:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, keep that up, but please use (pun "text here")
21:56:43 <fizzie> Should finish (or at least start) that HTTP client at the very least.
21:57:20 <oerjan> ais523: well who knows i _could_ be using a markov generator myself
21:57:33 <ais523> markov generators rarely make puns
21:57:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm efunge will have the planned NSCK/SCK4/SCK6/SCKU instead of SOCK and SCKE
21:57:53 <ais523> it's probably a chance in $BIGNUM that fungot would come up with an insightful metaphor like that
21:57:53 <fungot> ais523: i just dreaming of two broccoli fnord lying in an ovular, porcelain pool
21:57:55 <AnMaster> would a pun generator be possible?
21:57:59 <ais523> and yet it did, at random
21:58:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it would probably be awful
21:58:07 <ais523> but that doesn't really matter with puns
21:58:17 <ehird> fungot: ais523: i just dreaming of two broccoli fnord lying in an ovular, porcelain pool
21:58:18 <fungot> ehird: and how does cgi help you with optimizing bindings in your own world of conventions.
21:58:30 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it would be near impossible
21:58:47 <AnMaster> but short of that I don't think so
21:58:49 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster: http://grok-code.com/12/how-to-write-original-jokes-or-have-a-computer-do-it-for-you/
21:58:49 <fungot> AnMaster: http://grok-code.com/12/how-to-write-original-jokes-or-have-a-computer-do-it-for-you/ AnMaster: http://grok-code.com/12/how-to-write-original-jokes-or-have-a-computer-do-it-for-you/
21:59:13 <AnMaster> humor needs intelligence to be good
21:59:15 <ais523> well, those are jokes not puns
21:59:23 <AnMaster> I suppose you could do like standard patterns
21:59:36 <oerjan> fizzie: does fungot use fnord when it cannot find another way to continue?
21:59:37 <fungot> oerjan: cons as you traverse the tree fnord and needs to be clever
21:59:40 <ehird> fizzie: plz source <fungot> ais523: i just dreaming of two broccoli fnord lying in an ovular, porcelain pool
21:59:41 <fungot> ehird: depends on what you mean
21:59:41 <fungot> ehird: i think that's the best one
21:59:49 <ehird> the last line was from me sending that to people
22:00:07 <ais523> I googled for "pun generator" and one of the results made knock knock jokes based on Shakespeare
22:00:16 <ais523> but needed human interaction to work correctly
22:00:29 <fizzie> oerjan: No, when I tokenized my logs I mapped all tokens with a frequency of one to "UNK" (as in unknown), and when converting the generated token-stream back to text I map that to "fnord" explicitly.
22:00:45 <AnMaster> ehird: that joke generator is restricted to the "what do you get if you cross x with y" it seems
22:00:57 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster: Yes, but that's not the piont.
22:00:57 <fungot> AnMaster: Yes, but that's not the piont. AnMaster: Yes, but that's not the piont.
22:01:13 <oerjan> fizzie: ok so almost but not quite what i said, in effect
22:01:22 <AnMaster> this is just generating based on a template really
22:01:41 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes. Quite often it just 'fnord'izes uncommon words in a otherwise-quoted-verbatim sentence, though.
22:01:49 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster: No, it's not. It's more complex than that. Read the code.
22:01:50 <fungot> AnMaster: No, it's not. It's more complex than that. Read the code. AnMaster: No, it's not. It's more complex than that. Read the code.
22:01:58 <ais523> hmm... it seems that ignoring ehird just makes him say everything three times, via bot
22:02:00 <oerjan> so if we start saying UNK a lot that will increase the fnords? :D
22:02:08 <fizzie> ehird: Source: #scheme [2004-06-04 01:50:25] < boobot> I just DREAMING of two BROCCOLI FLORETS lying in an OVULAR, porcelain pool -- Should I do not recognize the name.
22:02:11 <AnMaster> yes of course, it uses a vocabulary and so on
22:02:21 <ehird> fizzie: boobot is a bot
22:02:25 <ais523> fizzie: you mean that was generated by a bot in the first place?
22:02:30 <ehird> fizzie: SO, it is verbatim, but from another random-generating bot
22:02:39 <ehird> or maybe 'zem' is more appropriate
22:02:42 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster no not markov
22:02:42 <fungot> AnMaster no not markov AnMaster no not markov
22:02:49 * ais523 wonders if it would be possible to set up a markov chain of markovbots somehow
22:03:04 <AnMaster> I suspect I have to ignore fungot too, since ehird doesn't respect ignore
22:03:05 <fungot> AnMaster: ( user ' ( open posix-files))
22:03:13 <ais523> hmm.... get a whole lot of markovbots written in different languages
22:03:18 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster: Have fun with that. I'll just put another bot in here.
22:03:18 <fungot> AnMaster: Have fun with that. I'll just put another bot in here. AnMaster: Have fun with that. I'll just put another bot in here.
22:03:22 <ais523> then markovchain their sources together
22:03:33 <ais523> then write an esolang capable of running the resulting program
22:03:48 <ehird> ^echo AnMaster: It's a good thing I don't give a damn.
22:03:48 <fungot> AnMaster: It's a good thing I don't give a damn. AnMaster: It's a good thing I don't give a damn.
22:04:02 <ais523> and bad style is the least of your worries if you chain together programs written in lots of different languages
22:04:04 <AnMaster> if you don't give a damn then why do you give a damn about using a bot at all
22:04:11 <ehird> ais523: he is talking about me
22:04:13 <ais523> anyway, fizzie, can you try to persuade ehird not to spam?
22:04:20 <ehird> putting a bot in here to annoy AnMaster
22:04:22 <fungot> AnMaster: to actually demonstrate the changing history part ( it's likely that your max already allows 3 ( and more)
22:04:33 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird_.
22:04:33 <fizzie> ais523: Sorry, my mind control skills are very bad.
22:04:44 <fizzie> fungot: And you! Should you really be obeying just anyone?
22:04:45 <ais523> fizzie: what about your ChanServ-control skills?
22:04:57 <ehird_> Hmm? what's that? An IP block?
22:04:58 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
22:05:16 <ehird> Well this is easily solvable.
22:05:22 -!- ehird_ has joined.
22:05:26 <fizzie> ehird: For example, by leaving him alone?
22:05:56 * ehird_ suspects AnMaster may have a block on my ident
22:05:57 -!- ehird_ has quit (Client Quit).
22:06:26 -!- unrelatedguy has joined.
22:07:10 <AnMaster> ais523, why is ehird joining his various different clients and then just parting? Seems strange
22:07:19 <AnMaster> I guess he have connection issues or something
22:07:32 <ehird> AnMaster: you're bullshitting, I know you can see the text because it's a different IP, hostname and nick.
22:07:40 <ehird> You will have had to manually /ignore it, and of course then know why I'm doing it.
22:08:03 <ais523> ehird: well maybe he has your IP blocked from months ago
22:08:07 <ais523> I don't quite recognise it on sight yet
22:08:13 -!- unrelatedguy has changed nick to Hi_AnMaster.
22:08:19 <ais523> but I certainly know there are IPs with a distinctly ehirdy look to them
22:08:26 <ais523> also, /ignore evasion is taking it too far, really
22:08:34 <ais523> people deserve to be kicked for that sort of thing
22:09:00 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
22:09:02 <AnMaster> ais523, my client is smart enough to add new patterns if parts change
22:09:15 <AnMaster> like ip change, but not nick and such then it adds the ip
22:09:31 <ais523> also, I can easily imagine a nick-tracking bot that just ignores both sides of a nick change
22:09:33 -!- Hi_AnMaster has changed nick to So_AnMaster_how_.
22:09:38 -!- So_AnMaster_how_ has changed nick to are_things_QUEST.
22:10:01 -!- are_things_QUEST has changed nick to IONMARK.
22:10:02 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes I ignore nick changes, why?
22:10:16 <fizzie> I have a sinking feeling kickbannery would just leave to ban evasionery, but nickflooding is so annoying I guess we'll soon have to actually try it.
22:10:16 <ais523> AnMaster: because ehird was trying to get around your ignorance
22:10:22 <ais523> well, your /ignore ance
22:10:26 -!- danopia__ has changed nick to danopia.
22:10:29 <ais523> and your client defeated them
22:10:33 <ehird> There, that should have done it.
22:10:39 <ehird> I bet he doesn't ignore CTCPs.
22:12:00 <AnMaster> hm interesting, the script just told me it added a ctcp block too, wonder what on earth caused that
22:12:16 <ehird> AnMaster is actually reading all this, he's just reading off that for effect to try and annoy me.
22:12:29 <IONMARK> I know you're reading this.
22:12:55 <ais523> ehird: if so he's taking your trolling very well
22:12:58 <AnMaster> over 760 pages though, so won't read it all in one night
22:13:00 <ais523> normally you're well-behaved
22:13:04 <ais523> what's got into you today
22:13:08 <ehird> ais523: No, he's just counter-trolling me.
22:13:17 <ais523> well in that case YHL.
22:13:17 <ehird> Also, this amuses me and I am bored.
22:13:29 <oerjan> "I hit him because he hit me afterwards!"
22:13:29 <ehird> Actually I haven't, I'm just figuring out cunning ways to annoy him further.
22:13:49 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando").
22:14:01 <ais523> oerjan: have you ever heard anyone actually using that argument?
22:14:31 <oerjan> it's just an old joke i guess
22:14:35 <ais523> I can so imagine that in a kid's playground...
22:14:53 <oerjan> well that's the setting of the joke i guess
22:16:41 -!- IONMARK has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | Hi AnMaster.
22:16:56 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | can be.
22:17:16 -!- IONMARK has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | How are you today AnMaster? -ehird.
22:17:34 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | popping a value of an empty should return 0.
22:17:41 <fizzie> optbot's a "can be" person, as opposed to a "can do" guy.
22:17:42 <optbot> fizzie: is there a current-request object or something?
22:17:55 <ais523> well, I'm resetting the topic mostly for the fun of seeing ehird in an edit war with his own bot
22:18:12 <ehird> I just /invite'd AnMaster to #hi_anmaster.
22:18:32 <ais523> ehird: this is the sort of thing that almost makes me want to call Freenode in on you
22:18:34 <fizzie> fungot: Did you die, by the way?
22:18:37 <ais523> you're going far too far, stop it
22:18:50 <ehird> ais523: Is there a policy I'm breaking? I don't know of any specific, non-vague one that I am violating.
22:18:54 <AnMaster> ais523, yes now the topic display at the top does change but since that is too short to show more than half the link anyway that isn't an issue, but it isn't announced in channel
22:19:20 <oerjan> ais523: well i was getting annoyed but on the other hand when he took a break it got awfully quiet here for a couple minutes
22:19:23 <ais523> ehird: "don't troll" is surely a policy
22:19:36 <ais523> well that's because the old, interesting conversation got derailed
22:19:38 <ehird> ais523: People have trolled me before via /msg, I reported to freenode, they say "/ignore them, we can't do anything"
22:19:49 <ehird> So no: They do not punish people who troll. :-)
22:20:43 <fizzie> Still, there _is_ a policy: "Off-Topic Use -- various forms of antisocial behavior -- Off-topic activity may result in users being barred from the network."
22:20:52 <fizzie> It's more of a "won't do" than "can't do" situation there.
22:23:03 -!- danopia has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:23:26 -!- danopia has joined.
22:23:51 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:24:21 <fizzie> Heh, after I asked fungot "And you! Should you really be obeying just anyone?" it went to a some sort of loop where it was using 100 % of the CPU time of that box.
22:24:35 <fizzie> Obviously moral/ethical questions are too much for it's brain.
22:25:19 -!- fungot has joined.
22:25:36 <fizzie> I'll ask it again just to be sure, but it probably didn't have anything to do with the input.
22:25:43 <fizzie> fungot: And you! Should you really be obeying just anyone?
22:25:43 <fungot> fizzie: before the pre-scheme compiler
22:26:06 <fizzie> fungot: What, after you get a Scheme compiler you'll suddenly start to behave correctly?
22:26:06 <fungot> fizzie: and yeah, imag-part has an exactness bug. fixing as we speak
22:26:28 <fizzie> fungot: So you're actually _writing_ that compiler now? Sometimes you scare me.
22:26:29 <fungot> fizzie: the approach used by gambit is described here:
22:26:58 -!- IONMARK has quit ("Lost terminal").
22:27:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, you want to debug that
22:28:01 <fizzie> Does your interpreter happen to have some sort of "drops into the debugger when receives a signal" mode or something?
22:28:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, don't you keep a backtrace?
22:28:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, err I don't have a full debugger, I just use some gdb macros. So yeah, you attach gdb to it :P
22:28:41 <AnMaster> then you do set variable SettingTraceLevel 9
22:29:01 <AnMaster> you can tab complete it from Setting
22:29:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, so standard gdb attach :)
22:29:20 <AnMaster> and then continue after setting trace on
22:29:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, not the answer you wanted?
22:29:46 <fizzie> Well, it's RC/Funge-98 still, haven't bothered to add the "chroot after starting so I don't need to a real chroot jail" to yours.
22:30:02 <ehird> I'd stick with RC/Funge. :-P
22:30:10 <ehird> I wonder if RC/Funge2 is usable yet?
22:30:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, a chroot for cfunge could be small :)
22:31:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, also adding that before file loading would be easy enough
22:32:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, see also etc/example.gdbinit in cfunge source
22:32:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, you need a -g -O0 compile
22:32:58 <fizzie> I think I'm just too lazy to do that when there aren't too many benefits in using another implementation. Although I guess a faster Funge implementation would mean a faster brainfuck interpreter in there.
22:33:11 <ais523> AnMaster: -g -O0? Why?
22:33:11 <ehird> fizzie: the brainfuck is pretty fast as it is
22:33:19 <AnMaster> ais523, or debug symbols won't work properly
22:33:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I get "symbol optimised out"
22:33:26 <fungot> echo reverb rev bf rot13
22:33:29 <ais523> they'll work well enough, normally
22:33:39 <AnMaster> break ExecuteInstruction if (opcode == $arg0)
22:33:41 <fizzie> I think there were some other commands I forgot to ^save.
22:33:44 <ais523> with a bit of lateral thinking you can figure out what it was optimised out too
22:33:48 <AnMaster> ais523, opcode is optimised out at -O1
22:33:57 <AnMaster> so that means that just breaks
22:34:06 <AnMaster> ais523, also the code is quite ok at -O0
22:34:14 <ais523> AnMaster: you can often get at it indirectly
22:34:23 <AnMaster> around 2 seconds for mycology here
22:34:39 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but it's massively large
22:34:45 <ais523> and a real pain to read
22:34:50 <ais523> if you're into reading asm, like I am
22:34:56 <ais523> yes, I'm talking about the binary
22:35:18 <AnMaster> actually 170 is stripped version of that
22:35:22 <ais523> it just breaks my heart to see gcc moving data from one variable to another, then moving it back again for no reason
22:35:32 <ais523> and storing stuff on the stack when it doesn't need to
22:35:33 <AnMaster> ais523, well I don't read the asm most of the time
22:35:40 <ais523> it's a sad way for a compilre to make a living...
22:36:03 <ehird> AnMaster: I work on higher level
22:36:12 <ehird> and then drop back down again with microoptimizations
22:36:31 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't read asm because CISC asm is bloody hard to read
22:36:44 <AnMaster> but x86 asm is just a pain to read
22:36:59 <ais523> AnMaster: ABI is still harder to read
22:37:18 <ais523> I mean, what sort of asm can't copy from one variable to another without a temporary?
22:37:19 <AnMaster> I I read the ABI *specs* for x86_64
22:37:28 <ais523> AnMaster: I mean ABI the asm used by gcc-bf
22:37:34 <ais523> I deliberately chose a confusing acronym
22:37:37 <ais523> but it tends to confuse people
22:38:15 <AnMaster> ais523, well I'd say confusing people is a function of confusing acronym
22:38:39 <AnMaster> <ais523> I mean, what sort of asm can't copy from one variable to another without a temporary? <-- the temporary is a variable too
22:38:53 <ais523> but it can't be copied to or from
22:39:02 <AnMaster> ais523, that way you end up with infinite number of temporaries
22:39:06 <ais523> in ABI, when I say "move", I mean "move"
22:39:10 <ais523> you can move data without a temporary
22:39:21 <ais523> so it isn't in its original location
22:39:28 <ais523> there are lots of non-copy ways to set a value
22:39:36 <ais523> for instance, there's double transfer addition
22:39:50 <ais523> which is effectively a+=c; b+=c; c=0;
22:39:59 <ais523> you can make a copy that uses a temporary out of that
22:40:05 <ais523> and a zero-cell instruction
22:40:38 <ais523> transfer addition, double transfer addition, and transfer subtraction are the basis of the whole language
22:40:59 <ais523> there's also transfer addition with carry, which is different from any other add-with-carry you've ever seen
22:41:47 <ais523> well, the carry isn't stored anywhere
22:42:00 <ais523> and the bytes can be taddc'd in any order
22:42:07 <ais523> the carry is applied directly to the result
22:42:25 <ais523> which means that a taddc needs an extra argument saying how many bytes it is from the top of the result
22:44:09 <AnMaster> ais523, also cfunge tends to prefer memcpy() instead of copying each entry of a struct, even though it may copy padding.. I guess that will be worse for gcc-bf?
22:44:28 <ais523> transfer add with carry
22:44:34 <ais523> asm instructions always have names like that
22:44:38 <ais523> and why would I break the tradition?
22:45:19 <AnMaster> ais523, however while the memcpy isn't either slower or faster on normal systems for cfunge (I profiled) it is easier and simpler to use memcpy
22:45:29 <AnMaster> and do deep copy on whatever is left
22:45:40 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not a problem either way, actually
22:45:48 <ais523> gcc-bf will optimise memcpy to some extent
22:45:54 <ais523> just as soon as I finish deoptimising newlib
22:46:01 <ais523> stupid optimisations making the wrong assumptions
22:46:15 <ais523> like copying an int is faster than copying a char
22:46:43 <AnMaster> ais523, well it is reasonable since int should be word size iirc? However I may be wrong
22:46:51 <ais523> AnMaster: int can't be 8 bits in C
22:46:56 <ais523> and the word size in gcc-bf is 8
22:47:00 <ais523> I set int to 32 anyway
22:47:04 <ais523> because everyone assumes it's 32
22:47:07 <AnMaster> after all x86 defines word to some small value for compatibility
22:49:18 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
22:49:27 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:50:41 <Slereah_> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/6/6d/Hmmm.jpg
22:56:42 * oerjan thinks encyclopedia dramatica should protect its main page better
22:57:32 <ais523> is its main page protected?
22:58:21 <oerjan> i shouldn't imagine so, since it contained a porn spam popup when i visited
23:00:11 <ehird> oerjan: That was probably... an ad.
23:00:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:00:25 <ehird> Yes, that is an ad.
23:00:27 <ehird> I have seen them elsewhere.
23:00:30 -!- slereah has joined.
23:00:46 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
23:23:56 <KingOfKarlsruhe> (define (bye . args)(for-each display args))(bye "gn8" " " "esoteric" " " channel")
23:24:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:35:45 -!- moozilla has joined.
23:39:14 <oerjan> Gnashing gnats gnaw gnarled gnostic gnome's gnus.
23:40:57 <ehird> oerjan: most of those are software products
23:41:03 <ehird> gnash (flash viewer)
23:41:05 <ehird> gnats (ada compiler)
23:41:18 <ehird> gnus (news reader for emacs)
23:49:02 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | no i don't.