01:27:47 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 01:54:02 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:02:55 -!- ab5tract has quit. 03:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | oh no. 03:23:53 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 03:31:28 -!- xor_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:06:45 -!- ab5tract has joined. 04:27:59 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 04:39:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:40:55 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:57:16 Devise an algorithm to sort an array of numbers in place (that is, using O(1) additional space). 04:57:16 Bonus: How would you change this algorithm if you wanted to destroy all animal life? All life? 04:59:00 huh? 04:59:09 there's lots of in-place sorting algorithms 05:00:07 What, are you people impervious to humor? 05:01:05 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:01:13 -!- puzzlet has joined. 05:01:13 apparently 05:01:29 i dont' get it 05:02:09 The second line is the joke X_X 05:05:09 ... 05:06:23 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:08:57 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has quit. 05:09:10 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has joined. 05:58:53 GregorR: well i found bsmntbombdood much funnier than your joke :D 05:59:53 also, i can only think of ways to sort in O(1) space in O(n) time 06:01:11 clever guy 06:02:20 clever guy? 06:04:04 i've only heard something vague about one being able to get rid of the recursion stack for quicksort 06:04:25 which i once made an attempt at, but resulted in O(n lg lg n) afaik 06:05:07 The simplest answer is bubble sort, but THAT'S NOT THE BLOODY JOKE 06:05:08 *O(lg lg n) space actually 06:05:31 GregorR: that's O(n) 06:05:42 That's O(1) /additional/ space. 06:05:44 i was thinking O(n lg n) time, O(1) space 06:05:51 O(n) time 06:05:54 silly boy 06:05:57 That's O(n^2) time. 06:06:02 rrright :D 06:06:04 of course it is 06:06:09 I never said to use better than O(n^2) time though. 06:06:23 You people are joke murderers. 06:06:26 Do you know that? 06:06:28 JOKE MURDERERS. 06:06:29 :D 06:06:35 hey i lolled at your joke 06:06:56 it's just i want to know if you can do O(1) additional space in O(n lg n) time 06:07:26 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 06:10:01 now sorting an array of numbers in O(-1) space, that's a challenge 06:10:01 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:10:08 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 06:11:19 -!- ab5tract has quit. 06:11:39 you can't have o(n) time 06:11:50 almost forgot, the lecture on O(-2^n) space O(-n) time algorithms starts in 5 minutes 06:12:04 first of all i meant O(n^2), i just wasn't thinking 06:12:26 and you can get O(n) in some cases 06:13:14 if you're sorting objects in a finite set, you can lift the size of the set into the constant multiplier, and get O(n) 06:13:37 all these hole sorts are based on this 06:13:47 you know, you have a hole and you stick your finger in it 06:13:51 and you get O(n) 06:13:53 see you around -> 06:18:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:22:39 You're always sorting in a finite set. 06:22:48 Good moaning 06:22:53 Although admittedly bucket-sorting integers into 2^64 is a bit prohibitive. 06:23:02 Although admittedly bucket-sorting integers into 2^64 buckets is a bit prohibitive. 06:24:02 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 06:24:13 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 06:26:08 -!- slereah has joined. 06:26:08 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:27:52 -!- oklocod has joined. 06:28:02 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:29:09 hm... heap sort might be without extra space and still O(n lg n) isn't it? 06:29:23 (well, O(1) extra) 06:29:30 GregorR: computers are turing complete, and 0..2^64-1 is an infinite set 06:29:57 By what stretch of the imagination is 0..2^64-1 an infinite set? 06:30:05 oerjan: that's true 06:30:15 GregorR: it's reeeeeally big 06:30:19 :P 06:30:36 my point is you have to choose your abstractions 06:31:15 * oerjan sometimes has envisioned that the consistency of infinite maths is an illusion, and maybe it breaks down at some _big_ number 06:31:58 but maybe so big that we can never hit it with any proof that fits in our universe 06:32:02 oerjan: how big? 06:32:09 oh 06:32:13 well that's quite big 06:32:32 of course it could be much smaller, we just haven't found it yet 06:32:55 you mean, all maths break down at that number? 06:32:59 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:33:07 also 06:33:19 well maybe not all simultaneously, but that's when things start to break 06:33:29 i may sound a bit more stupid than i am, as i have like a 2 minute lag 06:33:46 so i'm often asking questions loooong after they've already been answered 06:33:56 oerjan: at least an hour long lag 06:34:03 CTCP PING reply from oklocod: -6.-79 seconds 06:34:09 that looks ... serious 06:34:12 :D 06:34:28 -6*10^-79? 06:34:31 or what does that mean 06:35:15 perhaps your PING reply is broken 06:35:39 iirc it should respond with the number i sent, or something 06:36:03 -> ctcp[oklocod] PING 1223962424 679900 06:36:34 but if you don't, obviously the time calculations will be off 06:37:32 and the second - is probably irssi not being prepared to handle negative numbers in the display 06:38:43 and using a / and % that rounds in the wrong direction for this purpose 06:39:57 although it's _still_ strange that it gets numbers that low - if you respond with garbage you'd think irssi would end up with something huge? 06:40:32 lemme try again 06:41:07 um this time i got no response 06:41:45 * oerjan guesses oklocod really is lagged now 06:42:08 -!- oklopol has joined. 06:42:35 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:42:46 -!- oklopol has joined. 06:44:14 yes i was quite lagged 06:44:21 after which my internet faded away 06:45:35 and is this lecture about databases, the course is about distributed computation 06:48:10 ok i get PING replies again now, but still strangely small negative numbers 06:48:39 theory: maybe you reply with your own clocktime, which is slow? 06:49:22 oerjan: That sounds likely, because he replied to fungot's "PING fungot" with a clocktime. 06:49:23 fizzie: that's usually because almost all implementations of the high-level s-expression manipulation commands ( slurpage, barfage, &c. 06:49:54 stop mocking me ! 06:50:01 i do what i can 06:50:15 oklopol: It's not you we're mocking, it's your WORLD'S MOST FAMOUS AND BESTEST IRC client we're mocking. 06:52:40 also your clock setting 06:52:43 oh you think it's the bestest too? 06:52:51 that's nice :) 06:52:56 So I've heard. From you, mostly. 06:53:01 :D 06:53:08 * oerjan refuses to believe nvg's automatically updated clocks are wrong 06:53:23 well tbh this is a very sucky client, except for the fact it looks pretty without me having to invert the colors manually 06:53:54 -!- oklocod has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 06:55:14 * oerjan inverted his colors by downloading a theme from the irssi website 06:56:29 irssi is another client that has white text on black by default 06:56:37 yes, so i inverted it 06:56:41 but, it's a sucky client otherwise 06:56:42 * pikhq loves white on black 06:56:49 * pikhq also loves irssi 06:56:57 well, my irssi was broken, and no one knew how to fix it 06:57:08 well it's internal documentation sucks, is what i find 06:57:12 *its 06:57:13 couldn't get any kind of highlighting to show 06:57:25 irssi, a sucky client? What kind of person clames that? 06:57:39 pikhq: of course, no sane person would use black on white 06:57:52 Not on a terminal. 06:57:55 oklopol: GOOD THAT I AM MAD THEN 06:58:16 pikhq: a client that doesn't work is sucky. 06:58:24 oerjan: EVIL! 06:58:36 i couldn't get the bar that tells me which channels have some kinda highlights to show 06:58:40 oklopol: What doesn't work about irssi, aside from your borken irssi configuration? 06:59:08 I used a black-on-white terminal (with matching irssi, mutt, tin color schemes) for a year or two. Then I went back to white-on-black. 06:59:11 ... You couldn't get irssi's default configuration to work? 07:17:44 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 07:18:25 -!- oklocod has joined. 07:19:59 nice, i'm back 07:20:27 pikhq: one reason for not liking irssi was it simply didn't work, it didn't show the bar where you see which channels have had activity 07:20:40 Which is its default behavior. 07:20:52 okay, well i guess i should've asked you then. 07:20:55 Which means your irssi setup is 100% broken. 07:20:57 i'm pretty sure i asked here 07:21:02 Hrm. 07:21:26 Anyways. 07:21:30 but 07:21:38 the other reason 07:21:54 with the textual view 07:22:12 how does it work if you have more than ten channels open? 07:22:16 i usually have ~40 07:23:51 q = 11, w = 12, ... 07:24:03 Not sure about what happens when you've got more than 20, though. 07:24:13 Think you have to do /window number 07:24:20 i don't think i ever have less than 20 open 07:24:55 /window sounds a bit awkward, but at least there is a solution 07:24:56 /win number works, too... 07:24:59 i didn't know there was. 07:25:20 but, i never actually researched the subject, it's easier just to use the client that works the best without configuring. 07:25:40 *shrug* 07:25:56 i won't be satisfied with a client anyway, unless i made it myself, so i don't have much incentive to fix things 07:26:26 In theory, one could make irssi such that it's satisfactory to you. 07:26:33 It is, after all, Perl customizable. 07:26:55 yes, you can do that for nnscript as well 07:27:32 but will i actually do that when i could just start over and get a system just as good. 07:28:10 Fair 'nough. 07:29:02 also irssi has the minor defect i would have to learn to do the things command-wise i'm used to doing with the mouse 07:29:09 stuff like ctcp 07:29:25 (and by that i mean sending stuff to others) 07:30:48 Mouse, shmouse. 07:32:15 i hate mouses 07:32:18 but they're useful 07:32:51 i'm using vista after all 07:33:30 well, my father uses windows faster without a mouse, i'm just used to it 07:33:56 i would like a touchscreen you can touch in multiple places at once 07:35:24 and now i wanna write an irc client 07:35:30 perhaps i should. 07:35:35 scratch that 07:35:41 fizzie: could you add a gui to fungot? 07:35:43 oklocod: why'd you kill it? 07:36:22 so i could use it as my client 07:36:26 it would be awesome 07:41:20 hmm... 07:41:53 perhaps i could encode text into graph representations, and make a client with graph-graphics! :o 07:42:13 oh my god, i could have 1. graphs 2. glyphs only i am able to read 3. pure 4. awesomeness 07:44:23 undirected graph of course :P 07:45:15 will you join my exzuuuuuuuberance? 07:45:40 i think i need a break :) 07:45:40 -> 07:52:15 oklocod, you could probably make an ncurses based GUI using NCRS 07:52:16 not sure 07:53:21 that sounds nice enough 07:53:36 but really i don't need the g 07:53:45 i just wanna irc through fungot 07:53:46 oklocod: that is the part where the compiler is " poorly designed" if continuations are not unmodular in the same sense 07:54:08 except right now all i can think about it making a graph-based alphabet. 07:54:12 oklocod, well since it use SOCK you still have blocking STDIO I that you could use 07:54:42 you need non-blocking stdio I suspect 07:54:58 hey don't talk to me this is fizzie's responsibility, i'd just be a user! :) 07:55:10 hah 07:55:15 (graaaaaaaphs) 07:55:20 (moooooore graaaaaaaaph) 07:55:23 *s 07:55:50 > (moooooore graaaaaaaaphs) 07:55:50 reference to undefined identifier: moooooore 07:56:36 it's an elongation of "more" 07:56:46 don't you have elongation support? 07:56:48 > (more graphs) 07:56:48 reference to undefined identifier: more 07:57:01 oklocod, seems it doesn't 07:57:18 oh you were pipelining it to a non-human interpreter 07:57:21 that's just silly :) 07:57:25 oklocod, mzscheme to be exact 07:58:08 i hate this course 07:58:09 oklocod, it looked like scheme to me 07:58:11 ;P 07:58:12 there's nothing to read 07:58:39 ouhc 07:58:41 ouch* 07:58:47 who wants to listen to lectures when you could just read a few hundred pages 07:58:57 and get tons more informatino 07:59:00 *information 07:59:29 hah 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:21 well, the lecturer did mention a 1200 page book that *did not fully cover this course* 08:01:14 hmm 08:01:22 seems i gotta get back home -> 08:03:43 ok, cya 08:16:31 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:17:59 any lisp ought to have elongation support 08:18:08 (caaaaaaaaaaaaar wreck) 08:18:09 hmm 08:18:13 true 08:18:44 well the spec only requires it four deep 08:18:57 rrrright? 08:19:01 i said "ought to" 08:19:09 o. 08:19:45 -!- oklocod has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 08:21:51 name ideas for a graph-based irc client? 08:23:02 orc would be quite standard for me, but that's kinda boring 08:24:04 graphirc would look a bit like a mistyping of graphic, perhaps, but that's a bit boring too 08:30:45 how many distinct graphs can you make with n nodes? 08:32:36 or is it np-complete to calculate that? 08:33:42 2^(n over 2) undirected graphs, I think. Since that's the number of node-pairs, and each pair can either have an edge or not. 08:34:01 distinct up to form 08:35:56 Besides its practical importance, the graph isomorphism problem is a curiosity in computational complexity theory as it is one of a very small number of problems belonging to NP neither known to be solvable in polynomial time nor NP-complete. 08:36:01 *" " 08:36:10 That's not the same problem, though. 08:36:30 That's "determine whether two classes are isomorphic", not "how many isomorphism classes there are in graphs with n vertices". 08:36:32 you see i'm building something like morse code, i have one main strand, where i need to hang these small graphies on the nodes 08:36:36 It doesn't sound very easy, though. 08:37:13 s/classes/graphs/ there. 08:37:30 all the graphies need to be distinct (although they may be rooted, which matters of course) 08:38:39 i can enumerate the sets manually for long enough to get a character for every ascii chart entry, i'm just interested in theory 08:39:33 Heh, the R "graph.isomorphism" package: "graph.isoclass returns the isomorphism class of a graph, a non-negative integer number. Graphs (with the same number of vertices) having the same isomorphism class are isomorphic and isomorphic graphs always have the same isomorphism class. Currently it can handle only graphs with 3 or 4 vertices." 08:39:47 If it were trivial, I would think they'd handle graphs with over 4 vertices. 08:39:58 :D 08:40:35 a new kind of structure seems to emerge every time i add a new node 08:40:51 which immediately suggests there's no simple way to calculate the number of them 08:41:28 Actually I think we manually enumerated the isomorphism classes for small graphs during the graph theory course, when thinking about some assignment. 08:42:05 yes, but this is not the exact same problem, because they may be rooted; except i now realize they *are* exactly the same problem. 08:42:29 you just need to take the graphs, and root them from every possible angle 08:42:32 err 08:42:36 no... it's not that simple 08:42:53 i don't think it's the same problem 08:43:08 I don't think it is either. 08:44:02 for instance the graph abcda can be rooted in four different ways, all of which are equal, while in abcad three of the rootings are distinct 08:44:13 if you know eodermdrome syntax, which you probably don't 08:44:30 but you may be able to guess how it works 08:44:53 "In some sense, graph isomorphism is easy in practice except for a set of pathologically difficult graphs that seem to cause all the problems. So, unlike knot theory, there have never been any significant pairs of graphs for which isomorphism was unresolved." 08:45:36 (from MathWorld) 08:45:51 (the first quote was Wikipedia) 08:45:52 A000088, Number of graphs on n unlabeled nodes. 08:46:06 1, 1, 2, 4, 11, 34, 156, ... 08:46:08 darn i was trying to get to that 08:46:11 There are some formulas. 08:46:39 8 is unknown? 08:46:42 or you just cut it 08:46:46 I just cut it. 08:46:54 ..., , 1044, 12346, 274668, 12005168, 1018997864, 165091172592, 50502031367952, 29054155657235488, 31426485969804308768, 64001015704527557894928, 245935864153532932683719776, 1787577725145611700547878190848, 24637809253125004524383007491432768 08:47:03 Turns out it's not actually that difficult to compute. 08:47:03 oh, nice 08:47:12 yay 08:47:32 cool, now tell me *how* to compute it, so i can generalize it for rooted graphs... 08:47:35 And in fact we _did_ compute it; it was the "generative functions" class, not the graph theory one, and we manually enumerated them because we wanted to check whether our solution was correct. 08:47:49 i see 08:47:55 Or at least we wrote a generative function for it. I'm not sure if we actually figured out the coefficients. 08:48:15 I can check if I can find my notes. It might've been something else than just unlabeled graphs. 08:48:33 i don't know anything about generative functions, i've heard of generating functions, but i'm not sure what they are either. 08:49:39 Generating function might be the correct english term. 08:49:56 Yes, seems so. 08:50:18 It's just a function whose power series representation has coefficients that correspond to some interesting sequence. 08:50:37 that's sort of strange. i would have thought that since testing isomorphism is hard, that would mess up the count too... 08:51:05 The Generatingfunctionology book is relatively nice; even the name is funky. 08:51:11 We used that as a course book, I think. 08:51:24 you think? :P 08:52:12 I didn't read it much, it was sort-of background material. 08:52:32 Why can't I find my homework solutions? 08:54:49 http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A032259 has a really weird description 08:55:50 what don't you know what a dyslexic windmills :D 08:55:55 *windmill is 08:57:45 Okay, seems like our "number of graphs" homework problem was actually restricted to some kind of trees. 08:58:08 icic 08:58:24 oklopol: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A126100 08:58:27 It was Autumn 2006, I've forgotten most of it, I just remember counting graphs at some point. 08:58:37 (connected though) 08:58:52 connected is actually what i want 08:59:11 you know, i'm making a writing system you know 08:59:13 you know 08:59:51 so that's perfect 08:59:59 yay 09:00:15 4 has just 11 distinct rooted garphs 8| 09:00:34 oh 09:00:40 that one seems to use generating functions 09:00:47 right, i'm not counting the root; i only found 9 of the 11 sofar 09:01:32 Yes, it's computed from combining the generating functions of A000666 (sequence of the beast!) and A000088. 09:02:07 See, that's how useful they are; you just need to multiply some known functions and you get an otherwise-not-quite-as-simple-to-compute sequence out of it. 09:03:00 i know they are useful, and i know what they are; i just don't know anything about them :) 09:03:37 okay i think i have all eleven distinct rooted graphs on 4 nodes 09:04:04 Next find the 58 5-vertex graphs and the 407 6-vertex graphs. 09:05:20 And also the 72489 6-vertex graphs; then you probably have a graph for each currently defined Unicode symbol. 09:05:39 . is the root, standard eodermdrome syntax: .a.b.c, .ab.c, .ab.cb, .aba.c, .abac, .ab.acb, .ab.ac, .abca, .abc, .ab.cabc, .abc. 09:06:00 i love eodermdrome 09:06:35 ais523: i love it! now check those 09:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | sounds good. 09:07:12 basically, ".abc" are the four nodes, adjacent letters mean there's an arc 09:07:23 so .a.b.c is the comb 09:07:27 .abc is the line 09:07:28 Okay, I did guess the syntax mostly correctly. 09:07:33 .abc. is the cycle 09:07:38 others are the more complicated cases 09:07:59 The "comb" is actually called "claw". 09:08:03 oh 09:08:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claw_(graph_theory) 09:08:06 i'll remember that 09:08:08 K_1,3 it is. 09:09:01 oh, i see 09:09:17 well i mean the general case, just happened to have 4 nodes 09:09:40 .a.b.c.d..., where the last dots are an ellipsis 09:11:02 perhaps i could just enumerate the n^2 possibilities, and try to remove equals 09:11:26 could prolly get up to six vertex graphs, and as you pointed out, that's definitely enough 09:11:26 Of course the claw is not rooted, so .abac is also a claw. 09:11:39 true, true 09:11:47 * oklopol enumerates 09:12:19 And it's not n^2 possibilities. 09:12:38 hmm 09:12:39 2^n 09:12:42 err 09:12:47 2^(n over 2) 09:12:50 just like you said 09:12:55 yes yes yes i know this 09:13:09 it's just all these numbers are so over whelming 09:13:20 *overwhelming 09:13:31 they're (so over whelming) 09:14:06 o=n, w=2, h=e=l=m=i=n=g=1 09:14:10 hihi 09:14:16 *, s=1 09:28:46 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:37:05 hmm 09:37:29 there's actually no way the brute force algorithm will be able to enumerate all the 72 thousand distinct graphs 09:37:59 if i brute force by simply trying out all switchings of edges that is 09:38:08 oklopol, hm what about using quantum stuff for that? 09:38:08 because it's 68 billion possibilities :P 09:38:23 AnMaster: you mean like search? 09:38:42 oklopol, well I don't really understand quantum computer 09:38:57 i could use all kinds of things, i just can't wrap my head around how to actually do any of this efficiently. 09:39:14 perhaps i would get some perspective if i knew even a relatively fast way the check the equality of two graphs 09:39:16 but isn't it good at stuff like search huge number of combinations 09:39:18 and such? 09:39:22 err yes 09:39:44 quantum basically means you're doing nondeterministic search that always guesses rigt 09:39:46 *right 09:39:47 well maybe could be useful for checking all graphs then? 09:40:19 well yes, always finding the solution on the first attempt does help you find lots of things 09:40:42 since it apparently is so for primes 09:40:43 oklopol, as far as I understood it, not always, but "most of the time"? 09:41:27 yes, anyway, i doubt quantum algorithms, when translated to computers, are anything but searching with a heuristic 09:45:31 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:45:31 -!- AnMaster has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:46:03 -!- Jiminy_Cricket has joined. 09:46:03 -!- AnMaster has joined. 09:46:49 ais523: do you have an algorithm for eodermdomizing a graph? 09:47:13 even a bad one would suffice 09:53:26 -!- moozilla has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:58:49 If it's a connected graph, can't you just do a simple depth-first-search (flagging nodes as visited to avoid loops)? Then you'd just output the the node label when entering a node, and the parent when coming back. 10:02:08 oh right 10:02:14 lol yeah that's trivial 10:02:59 thanks, for some reason i was wanted to start with "", and start filling it node by node by looking for adjacent neighbors of its 10:03:33 *neighbors of the node 10:03:46 i doubt a string contains many of its own neighbors. 10:04:46 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:10:21 hehe, takes about a minute to get the 58 solutions, assuming the graph equality even works :P 10:13:39 oklopol, is that a slow or fast in this context? 10:14:05 -!- moozilla has quit (Connection timed out). 10:14:14 AnMaster: well i'm aiming for that 72 thousand 10:14:32 and the runtime growth is exponential 10:14:44 oklopol, so too slow in other words? 10:15:27 well in other *worlds* it wouldn't be too slow 10:15:34 words i don't know anything about 10:15:57 worlds or words? 10:16:07 oh wait 10:16:11 that's the joke 10:16:14 bah 10:16:17 oklopol, yeah 10:16:28 but is it too slow for the intended usage? 10:17:43 http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/nauty/ is a well-known graph automorphism/isomorphism thingie. I haven't self used it, but one of the graph theory programming project people did. 10:17:48 hm isn't * for dereferencing pointers and * for multiplication ambiguous in C? At least in some contexts? 10:17:52 say int *foo; 10:17:54 then 10:18:03 int bar = 2 * foo; 10:18:12 that multiplies pointer or? 10:18:17 It's a multiplication. 10:18:25 what about 10:18:30 int **foo; 10:18:31 Because "2 " is not legal syntax. 10:18:37 int bar = 2 ** foo; 10:18:38 hm 10:18:41 fizzie, ah true 10:18:46 but the second example? 10:18:54 wait 10:18:56 same for that 10:18:58 oh well 10:18:59 That is "2 multiply (pointer-dereference foo)" because, again, it's the only way to make sense out of it. 10:19:07 fizzie: i can't use other people's programs 10:19:16 fizzie, so it is never ambiguous? 10:19:18 oklopol: Oh, you had that sort of a bug. 10:19:27 when i'm asking for help, i'm asking for an algorithm 10:19:28 yes 10:19:38 or rather, a hint 10:19:50 oklopol: Well, see the referenced paper, then: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/nauty/PGI/ 10:19:58 oklopol, "not invented here syndrome"? 10:20:05 fizzie: i'll try to get mine to work first :) 10:20:15 AnMaster: yes, quite a bad case o that 10:20:27 although i never understood the name 10:20:49 huh? How is it hard to understand? 10:21:02 "we can't use it, because it wasn't invented here" 10:21:04 basically 10:21:19 oklopol, remember to avoid standard library functions too 10:21:22 ;P 10:21:53 well i never figured what sentence it's part of 10:21:59 but yeah i guess it fits that sentence. 10:23:13 oklopol, well "wasn't" != "not", but something similar to that sentence I guess 10:24:10 -!- moozilla has joined. 10:25:26 AnMaster: i consider standard library functions part of the language 10:25:34 hm wikipedia says it is also abbreviated (sp?) as NIH 10:25:46 I'm pretty sure I have seen a libnih recently 10:26:00 also, i never use standard library functions if i feel they're too complex for me to code myself. 10:26:16 oklopol, err that made no sense :P 10:26:22 code reuse is a good thing 10:27:17 oh yes it exists: https://launchpad.net/libnih 10:27:19 huh 10:30:29 i don't see anything good in code reuse 10:30:35 not anything bad either 10:32:38 oklopol, if 10 different applications use the same library, and the same function from that library, to do something, then that means just one function doing that thing, and just one place to fix bugs in 10:33:13 for example, what if every program implemented it's own sorting algorithm? Instead of using standard library ones 10:33:21 even libc got it 10:33:23 qsort() 10:33:40 I'm not sure you can manage to convince oklopol that there's anything inherently good about code reuse. 10:34:04 I mean, it's not like he's doing software development here. 10:35:37 fizzie, hehe 10:37:28 AnMaster: if every program implemented its own sorting algorithm, i guess making all programs that need sorting would take a few seconds more to code 10:37:45 but, i do reuse my own code. 10:37:52 oklopol, and some more places where bugs could happen 10:38:56 if your program has bugs, you're a bad programmer, and it's good you get some exercise rewriting trivial programs. 10:40:11 oklopol, in any sufficiently complex programs, bugs do happen 10:40:18 even if you are a good programmer 10:40:40 well, how about i never make anything that complex, and we'll just consider me a small-scale programmer 10:41:14 oklopol, not even 1000 lines of code or so in any project? 10:41:21 that may well be the case, most programs worth writing are pretty short 10:41:39 well sure, but that's not "sufficiently complex" 10:41:59 i do some 300 lines per hour 10:42:09 for example, cfunge got around 10000 lines of code according to a "smart line counter" 10:42:21 and around 16000 in total 10:42:27 that include blanks and comment 10:42:37 well cfunge has lots of stuff. i would get bored before getting bugged 10:42:46 and with "smart line counter" I mean a program that can find what are actually comments and what are code. 10:43:13 though amusingly it thinks one file is C++, I guess because I happen to use a C++ keyword as an identifier 10:43:38 ... 10:43:43 well that's smart :) 10:43:48 what? 10:45:20 err, just that the name is somewhat ironic 10:46:27 oklopol, well it is the same software that site ohloh use 10:49:00 i don't know what that is :) 10:49:27 oklopol, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohloh 10:50:01 oh i see 10:50:19 oklopol, anyway their line-of-code counter is rather good. 10:50:34 what can it do? 10:50:54 oklopol, stuff like: http://rafb.net/p/4KJ7Ih69.html 10:51:22 so basically, it can parse the language, and calculate statements 10:51:27 does it do c++? 10:52:04 oklopol, well it does think so, it says c++ for one of the C headers. It does seem to have a slight problem keeping C and C++ apart, but that isn't easy indeed. 10:52:27 it isn't? 10:52:38 just parse as c, and if there's a problem, try c++ 10:52:59 oklopol, well I think it doesn't try to compile it, but does a simpler search 10:53:20 also you could probably write a program valid in both C and C++, but where the code means different stuff 10:53:30 even without resorting to #ifdef 10:53:48 in that case both are correct answers 10:55:26 Personally I'd just use the file suffix to decide the language; that's what gcc does, anyway. 10:55:41 fizzie, agreed 10:56:12 Though admittedly deciding between Perl and Prolog for .pl needs some heuristics, at least. 10:56:12 well that's just cheating P: 10:56:14 :P 10:56:39 well for perl and prolog you can probably just calculate some kinda entropy function 10:57:10 both use .pl? 10:57:27 Yes. 10:58:25 Although some people use .pro for Prolog, because of the Perl thing. Still, I think .pl is a lot more common. 11:02:51 fizzie, what does scheme use? 11:02:57 and what about haskell? 11:03:38 Haskell files are usually .hs, and Schemers use .scm. 11:03:47 hm 11:03:58 Although I've seen other Scheme file extensions than .scm too. 11:05:12 I think some PLT stuff is in ".ss" files. 11:05:31 ah yes sounds familiar 11:40:17 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:46:07 -!- slereah has joined. 11:46:07 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:01:21 xD after debugging my graph equivalence checked for ages i now realize it worked all along 12:23:11 -!- ehird has left (?). 12:23:14 -!- ehird has joined. 12:23:14 -!- ehird has left (?). 12:23:20 -!- ehird has joined. 12:23:23 Stupid butts. 12:23:26 dfgdfg 12:23:28 colloquy 12:23:31 haaaaate 12:31:21 I am not a butt 12:52:11 CoE: Yes you are 12:53:43 Meanwhile. 12:53:52 [[President Bush on Monday signed into law legislation creating a copyright czar, a cabinet-level position on par with the nation's drug czar.]] 12:53:55 Intellectual property woo 12:56:34 czar? 13:00:26 [[In the United States the title "czar" is a slang term for certain high-level civil servants, such as the "drug czar" for the head of the Drug Enforcement Administration, "terrorism czar" for a Presidential advisor on terrorism policy, "cybersecurity czar" for the highest-ranking Department of Homeland Security official on computer security and information security policy, and "war czar" to oversee the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.]] 13:19:54 ais523: ping 13:20:04 aw. away 13:37:54 Uh.. does the Funge-98 spec really say 'v' should go up? From catseye.tc: "subsequent lines increment the y coordinate" (so later lines get larger Y values), "delta is either (0,-1) (south), --" (so "south" means up towards earlier lines) and "the v "Go South" instruction causes the IP to travel south". 13:44:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:49:04 OO.o 3.0 is still a bloated, laggy, ugly-looking piece of shit! 13:49:05 :D 13:49:31 My god. That text rendering is just awful. 13:55:01 * AnMaster writes a "project creation request" at sf.net 13:55:12 and I think either I or them will go mad by it 13:55:18 either me* 13:55:20 maybe 13:55:40 * AnMaster is unsure of the correct English form there 13:55:53 ehird, and that is why you use LaTeX ;P 13:56:13 OO.o is not for the same purpose as LaTeX 13:56:19 agreed 13:56:23 also, sf.net should never be used 13:56:28 ehird, why not? 13:56:41 ehird, can't think of any good download hosting elsewhere 13:56:44 which is about all I need 13:56:52 it's an open source site hosted on a closed source, big bucks platform, it's very slow, the interface pretty much sucks, and yeah. 13:57:02 AnMaster: What is it for? 13:57:06 ehird, efunge. 13:57:12 "efunge is coded in the functional language Erlang as mentioned in the public description. While it currently doesn't differ much in the feature set from other Befunge-98 implementations, there are plans to take advantage of Erlang's unique actor-based concurrency model in the future. This would allow efunge taking advantage of the multi-core CPUs that are getting more and more common these days." 13:57:13 I'll host it on eso-std.org 13:57:15 the start of the request 13:57:16 ;P 13:57:27 and yeah insane 13:57:47 * AnMaster waits for ehird's comments on that 13:57:57 I want to stab you anyway, so. 13:58:00 But I'll host it on eso-std.org 13:58:12 ehird, hm. 13:58:33 ehird, anyway I think the software will be ready for a first release in maybe one week or two 13:58:51 that would be 0.0.1 or so 13:58:56 Sure. Whatever. I'll just put the tarballs or whatever up whenever you want. 13:58:58 no big deal. 13:59:05 ehird, would you do same for cfunge? ;) 13:59:14 not that I need it, since cfunge use sf.net for download hosting 13:59:19 * ehird stabs AnMaster 13:59:22 Now we don't have to find out! 13:59:29 ehird, eh? 14:00:20 ehird, anyway read the website for Java2K 14:00:24 and that is way more extreme 14:00:28 than the text I pasted 14:00:33 Yeah, 'cept you're serious. :) 14:00:45 ehird, I wasn't! 14:00:52 weren't? 14:00:53 err 14:00:56 was not 14:01:22 ehird, I really was trying not to laugh loudly when I wrote it 14:01:32 It wasn't that funny either. :D 14:01:47 agreed, but somewhat same style as Java2K 14:08:26 http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/efunge/ 14:08:31 quick and dirty 14:11:42 AnMaster: Please style html's background, not body. 14:11:48 Otherwise it looks ridiculous 14:11:57 ehird, oh? How? 14:12:09 The page is white, but the actual content has your barely-differenciated background. 14:12:13 It just looks like a bug in the page. 14:12:20 html{color:#000;font-family:sans-serif;background:#fcfcfc} 14:12:20 then? 14:12:24 Yes. 14:12:33 (I would just not style such a simple page at all, tbh) 14:12:45 it render no differently here 14:12:51 checked with screenshot 14:12:58 and comparing images 14:13:03 AnMaster: And? 14:13:09 hm 14:13:10 Both renderings are correct, I believe 14:13:17 It depends on the default height/width of body. 14:13:38 ehird, does it look better now? 14:13:43 Yes. 14:13:52 Although personally I don't quite like the colour scheme. 14:14:46 well, with all respect I like a slightly off-wite colour 14:14:54 Your choice, of course 14:14:59 thanks :) 14:15:03 I was responding to "does it look better now". 14:15:08 yeah 14:15:27 ehird, what browser were you using? 14:15:38 WebKit nightly. 14:15:48 (With the Safari chrome, obviously.) 14:15:58 ah was about to ask about that 14:16:16 I believe that Konqueror should display the same. 14:16:21 If not, well, something changed somewhere. 14:16:27 ehird, I have 3.5.x remember 14:16:42 4 hasn't mixed back WebKit. 14:16:45 So that's not really relevant. 14:18:16 http://blog.davglass.com/files/yui/bacon/ Finally! A good use of JavaScript! 14:36:52 lost game 14:49:49 "SourceForge operates SourceForge.net, Slashdot, Linux.com, IT Manager's Journal, NewsForge, and Freshmeat. SourceForge licensed SourceForge Enterprise Edition to enterprise organizations. ThinkGeek — an ecommerce site — is also under the SourceForge banner." 14:49:53 hrrm 14:50:17 source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sourceforge,_Inc. 14:50:29 and that would explain why several of those sites suck 14:50:54 at least those that I ever checked... sf.net, freshmeat slashdot and thinkgeek 14:55:16 AnMaster: you should see their app setup 14:55:18 it's a horrible java thing 14:55:20 that has to be run as a VM 14:55:24 ugh 14:55:26 and they charge like $5,000 for it 14:55:47 well I hope no one buys it 14:55:55 AnMaster: Oh they do. 14:55:58 Fun fact - 14:56:07 You know those crop of "forges" using a look-alike software? 14:56:09 Called GForge? 14:56:09 there got to be better alternatives 14:56:14 That was forked from when SourceForge was FOSS. 14:56:25 ehird, well berlios use a fork of the old foss version iirc 14:56:27 Before they made it proprietary crap. 14:56:29 AnMaster: Yah 14:56:30 and same for many other ones 14:56:45 But yes, there are better options. 14:56:57 ehird, we just got to wait for launchpad to go open source ;P 14:56:58 A _decent_ option, of course, would integrate it all with git. 14:57:00 * ehird gets mauled by AnMaster 14:57:07 Also, launchpad is awful. In my experience. 14:57:15 ehird, better than sf.net at least 14:57:18 (Plus I dislike Canonical. "Inc".) 14:57:23 AnMaster: What isn't? 14:57:31 Okay, okay, maybe Microsoft CodeProject. 14:57:36 But apart from that, come on, don't mock the retard. 14:57:37 That's not fair. 14:57:38 ehird, err.. lets see... yeah 14:57:40 :D 14:57:57 * ehird pets CodeProject 14:58:00 didn't know the name of the microsoft one 14:58:01 Noo, it's okay, you're really open source. 14:58:07 No, no, I know people are saying you're not. 14:58:08 It's okay. 14:58:12 You're a good little thing. 14:58:14 There there. 14:58:23 ehird, what about google code? 14:58:46 probably better 14:58:49 but not very good 14:58:53 just svn too iirc 14:58:56 Google code is good, actually. It only supports SVN though, and, of course, is closed source so you're tied to google. 14:58:59 I wouldn't put a large project on google code. 14:59:09 I wouldn't put any project there 14:59:09 (Note: cfunge is not large) 14:59:17 ehird, cfunge doesn't use svn 14:59:23 Yes. 14:59:30 But I was just waiting for you to claim your enterpriseyness. 14:59:40 which is why I actually use launchpad for mirroring branches 14:59:50 since it can handle the DVCS I use 15:00:27 ehird, anyway if I ever need to change from bzr, it will either be darcs or mercurial 15:00:34 http://www.aeroxp.org/2008/10/introducing-windows-7/ <- Someone at microsoft can't count 15:00:35 and I don't want a fight about that now 15:03:53 So. 15:03:54 -!- ehird has left (?). 15:03:57 -!- ehird has joined. 15:03:58 -!- ehird has left (?). 15:04:04 -!- ehird has joined. 15:04:28 Heh. I wonder if Agora will have a coinciding economic crisis to the real world. 15:04:39 ehird, why would it? 15:04:46 I *did* just start a CRAZY COMMUNIST BANK AUTOMATON there yesterday 15:04:54 AnMaster: Beats me :D 15:05:07 It would if I made my magical paypal<->agora bridge contract thing though 15:05:09 Which nobody would use 15:05:11 Because who is that crazy 15:05:13 Nobody 15:05:50 ehird, you? 15:05:55 no offence meant 15:06:05 Ok good point 15:06:29 also you mean like paying for agora money with real money? 15:06:30 to who? 15:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | chaos theoy, fractals, etc?. 15:07:18 AnMaster: I was thinking a trade system. 15:07:21 That's a nice topic. 15:07:34 fizzie, agreed 15:07:36 ehird, hm ok 15:07:36 Pay person money via paypal --> person is agora-required to give you the assets 15:07:47 And vise-versa. 15:07:49 *vice-versa. 15:08:27 heh 15:09:12 of course I'd probably hook it up into the People's Bank of Agora (the silly COMMUNIST PEOPLE BANK I made yesterday intended to overthrow the Reformed Bank of Agora) 15:09:15 ehird, what currency is used? 15:09:19 and what about conversion ratios 15:09:20 so that you could get some actually useful stuff out of it 15:09:33 (you'd send the money to the Coinkeepor) 15:09:58 AnMaster: I'd probably set 1 People's Bank of Agora coin = 1 penny, but I should probably pick a more stable country. 15:09:58 convertion* 15:10:01 I think 15:10:04 not sure about spelling 15:10:05 no 15:10:08 conversion 15:10:11 ok 15:10:12 but idiomatic is "exchange rates" 15:10:23 ehird, also shouldn't it be floating, like the real ones? 15:10:34 Yes. 15:10:37 But am I that bored? :-) 15:10:42 You know, Agora money on the international currency market 15:10:44 XD 15:10:58 AnMaster: That would roughly coincide with Agora becoming the law of an island we claim. 15:11:01 (Probably a traffic island.) 15:11:13 traffic island? 15:11:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_island 15:11:33 haha 15:11:33 ok 15:11:40 we could all squeeze on! 15:11:53 Anyway, the People's Bank of Agora actually does have floating exchange rates. 15:12:28 Every currency has an exchange rate which is initially 10. 15:12:39 "Every midnight (UTC) that the PBA has zero of a given Eligible Currency, 15:12:39 that currency's exchange rate goes up by 2. Every Monday midnight (UTC) that the 15:12:39 PBA has a non-zero amount of a given Eligible Currency, that currency's exchange 15:12:40 rate goes down by 2." 15:12:41 well I never understood how floating exchange rates were calculated in the real world even 15:12:47 and 15:12:52 when you deposit something for coins 15:13:02 the currency that you deposited's exchange rate goes down by 1 15:13:10 and if you withdraw some of that currency it goes up by one 15:13:11 hm 15:13:26 ehird, is it possible to make money from that? 15:13:36 You mean, for the bank to make money? 15:13:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:13:48 ehird, no, for a player 15:13:59 like convert to gain more back and forth as needed 15:14:05 Well, no. 15:14:13 It goes down on deposit, up one withdraw. 15:14:16 So it'd just keep batting and batting. 15:14:31 You can, however, make a profit overnight. 15:14:34 2 coins 15:14:43 just 2 coins? 15:14:57 AnMaster: Well, yes... 15:14:57 wouldn't that be 2x? 15:15:00 or? 15:15:00 No. 15:15:01 Why would it be? 15:15:09 "that currency's exchange rate goes up by 2" 15:15:24 AnMaster: exchange rate for currency X = how many coins X is worth 15:15:29 i.e., how many coins you get depositing one X 15:15:35 or how many coins you have to spend to get one X 15:15:40 yes so you can get 1:2, right? 15:15:44 oh wait, no 15:15:56 You're mixing up midnight changes with deposit/withdraw changes 15:16:00 ehird, you can't do a large bulk transaction? 15:16:04 Yes you can. 15:16:06 anyway, 2 coins profit overnight is a LOT 15:16:11 ehird, it is? hm 15:16:12 that's 20% of your cost for one asset back 15:16:16 since the default rate is 10 15:16:25 the rates will bubble up to like 50 soon enough, I imagine. 15:16:32 interesting 15:16:35 oh well 15:16:55 I'll paste the entire contract to a pastebin if you want, it's short and doesn't have that much agoraspeak. 15:17:32 hi ais523 15:18:36 hi ehird 15:18:56 ehird: you were talking about the PBA in #esoteric? How evil! 15:19:01 :D 15:22:34 ais523: do you have an algorithm for eodermdomizing a graph? <--- not yet, but I should be able to think of one 15:23:01 Though admittedly deciding between Perl and Prolog for .pl needs some heuristics, at least. <--- I thought Prolog was .pro... 15:23:14 no 15:23:16 prolog is .pl 15:23:19 and it used it before perl 15:24:34 ehird: I read through Prolog manuals before Perl was invented, and they used .pro 15:24:49 so I suspect that both were in common usage, even before Perl arrived and muddled the situation 15:28:35 Prolog is also .pro, yes. 15:29:19 But at least SWI-Prolog uses .pl by default; the manual does say .pro is a common alternative if you want to change the default extension. 15:46:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:52:36 Haskell files are usually .hs, and Schemers use .scm. 15:52:46 also .lhs, for literate syntax 15:53:00 TECO invented literate programming before it was invented 15:53:06 its effective comment marker is a toggle-comment 15:53:13 yay 15:53:18 so literate programs end up equivalent to illiterate programs 15:53:34 "effective comment marker", because TECO comments are done by creating labels with implausible names 16:00:20 Heh. I wonder if Agora will have a coinciding economic crisis to the real world. 16:00:55 oerjan: mmyes? 16:01:00 doesn't Agora have economic crises more often than the world economy changes at all? 16:01:38 Well... if by "crises" you mean "someone gets infinite of a currency and they make a clone contract without the flaw"... 16:01:43 Then yes. :-P 16:02:02 thought so 16:06:20 ais523: do you have an algorithm for eodermdomizing a graph? <--- not yet, but I should be able to think of one 16:06:41 from what i could see an optimal solution solves the hamiltonian graph problem :D 16:06:56 oh wait 16:06:57 for a planar graph, a nice simple awful algorithm would be to eodermdromize each region individually recursively 16:07:09 i'm wrong, it's the eulerian graph problem 16:07:22 which is easily solvable 16:07:24 yes, that probably leads to an efficient solution 16:07:45 hmm... it's very easy to tell if a graph's Eulerian 16:08:01 trying to find the shortest eodermdromizing if it isn't is potentially interesting, though 16:08:07 yeah 16:08:12 presumably you try all possible pairs of odd vertices to double the paths between 16:09:32 hm this sounds like it should be a known problem. 16:09:43 it is, I remember reading about it in a textbook somewhere 16:09:50 unfortunately I can't remember what it's called, or what the solution was 16:13:05 ah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_inspection_problem 16:25:32 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:59:30 -!- Mony has joined. 17:01:58 plop 17:02:27 hi Mony 17:02:37 hi ais523 17:56:10 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:02:36 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 18:03:13 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:13:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:18:13 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:40:58 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:43:44 -!- boily has joined. 18:45:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Client Quit). 18:45:57 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:47:47 -!- shorty5 has joined. 18:48:11 -!- shorty5 has quit (Client Quit). 18:48:22 -!- kar8nga has left (?). 18:54:43 -!- boily has quit ("leaving"). 19:40:29 -!- Mony has quit ("Ne regrettons pas le passé, ne nous préoccupons pas de l'avenir : le sage vit dans le présent."). 19:47:26 hi ais523 19:47:30 hi AnMaster 19:47:57 -!- atrapado has joined. 19:51:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:00:05 -!- Asztal has quit ("@"). 20:20:42 That -Os recompile? 20:20:46 Holy fuck did it help. 20:20:53 does that mean it did, or didn't? 20:21:09 It did. 20:21:15 By quite a lot. 20:21:16 what did it help with? 20:21:37 Speed and memory usage. 20:22:19 not to mention global warming, teeth decay and belly button lint 20:22:31 Low cache size, relatively small amount of memory, and slow swap means that -O2 system-wide is not all that beneficial... 20:27:49 pikhq: real men compile by hand 20:28:05 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:28:11 when space is an issue 20:30:48 bsmntbombdood: Space wasn't *that* much of an issue. 20:31:26 CODE... IN... SPAAAAAAACE! 20:32:43 real men only write code for their 8742s 20:32:56 and/or rebuilt lunar guidance computer 20:33:14 8742s? 20:34:15 an early microcontroller 20:34:23 <256 bytes of ram 20:35:15 How early? 20:35:24 256 bytes sounds pretty early 20:35:34 -!- sebbu has quit (No route to host). 20:35:34 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:35:36 You could probably build that with an analytic engine 20:35:51 seventies 20:47:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:53:43 -!- slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:53:45 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 20:57:34 -!- ehird has changed nick to tusho. 20:58:11 -!- tusho has changed nick to ehird. 21:07:06 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | http://pasteserver.net/paste/show/260. 21:09:55 optbot: no fair, that has expired 21:09:55 oerjan: you might want to try this: +[>print<[,----------]+] 21:13:52 -!- ab5tract has joined. 21:14:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:15:00 -!- ehird has quit (Excess Flood). 21:15:43 -!- ehird has joined. 21:15:51 -!- ehird has quit (Excess Flood). 21:16:27 -!- ehird has joined. 21:16:53 -!- ehird has quit (Excess Flood). 21:17:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:17:19 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:17:34 -!- ehird has joined. 21:30:22 +ul (is this still working?)S 21:30:23 is this still working? 21:30:25 yay 21:31:59 Heh :D 21:32:42 -!- comex has changed nick to comex--. 21:40:16 ^ul (yay)S 21:40:23 yay 21:40:29 fizzie: aha 21:40:31 A little bit slower... 21:40:39 is that using the BF version of Underload? 21:40:44 ^ul (:aSS):aSS 21:40:49 It's still the Brainfuck one, haven't had time to fungotize the Funge-98 implementation I did. 21:40:50 +ul (:aSS):aSS 21:40:50 (:aSS):aSS 21:40:52 ...out of time! 21:40:52 fizzie: i use a lot more 21:42:02 fis@eris:~/src/bef$ echo '(:aSS):aSS' | ~/inst/rcfunge/rcfunge/funge -S underload.b98 21:42:06 (:aSS):aSS 21:42:08 all done. 21:42:31 hmm... have you posted that program online anywhere? 21:42:36 it would be interesting to see how it works 21:43:58 It works pretty much by doing exactly what the command descriptions in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload say. STRN fingerprint G/P/A commands are used to manipulate strings, and the stack is kept on one line of zero-terminated strings in Funge-space, growing to the negative direction. 21:44:37 ah, ok 21:44:41 It is also utterly boring and readable Befunge code. :/ 21:44:43 http://zem.fi/~fis/underload.b98.txt 21:45:12 yep, looks simple enough 21:45:36 And RC/Funge-98 fails on anything that tries to concatenate two strings whose total length is 1000 characters or more, due to the use of a fixed-size buffer and strcat. 21:45:47 also, the word "unterminated" looks great when written backwards 21:45:52 ^reverse unterminated 21:45:56 ^rev unterminated 21:45:56 detanimretnu 21:46:07 ^rev not supported 21:46:08 detroppus ton 21:46:11 That one is also nice. 21:46:14 yes 21:46:22 (It's in fungot sources when it loads the fingerprints.) 21:46:22 fizzie: " that", which was the size before? 21:46:48 ah, concatting long strings is kind-of common in Underload... 21:47:10 Yes, the factorial program on esolangs.org only works for inputs up to 6. 21:47:37 fis@eris:~/src/bef$ echo '(:::::::):(:((^:()~((:)*~^)a~*^!!()~^))~*()~^^)~(^a(*~^)*a~*()~^!()~^)a~**^!!^S' | ~/inst/rcfunge/rcfunge/funge -S underload.b98 21:47:40 Segmentation fault 21:49:41 Fibonacci gets up to 610, the next one (which should actually be only 987 stars) segfaults. 21:51:39 The 99 bottles of beer song works, though. (If I strip newlines -- the program input in the standalone version stops at \n.) 21:56:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:57:12 -!- Asztal has joined. 21:59:49 -!- comex-- has changed nick to comex. 22:00:57 -!- Slereah_ has quit. 22:07:44 The Funge version isn't especially _fast_, but it's really a couple of magnitudes faster than the Brainfuck-on-Funge version. ~14 seconds to run 99 bottles of beer. 22:07:49 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 22:10:19 heh, something for an esoteric shootout that :P 22:10:46 hmm... I wonder how it competes against the Thutu version? 22:13:52 Don't have a Thutu implementation or the Thutu Underload thing. Are they available somewhere? 22:14:24 yes, I think so 22:14:30 now I just have to remember where 22:14:54 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/thutu/ 22:15:18 also, Thutu always looks like that 22:15:21 at least when I write it 22:15:25 probably other people would be cleaner 22:15:37 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/thutu/src/ul.t2 is the Underload interpreter 22:15:49 and http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/thutu/impl/thutu.pl is a Thutu to Perl compiler 22:16:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 22:17:19 I implemented ^ so that it just places the string on top of the stack so that its last character replaces the ^; then suitably decrements the "current instruction" value so that it starts incrementing. That means that something like (:^foobar):^ will make the program extend into negative X coordinates of the funge-space. 22:18:44 yes, that sounds like a reasonable implementation 22:22:25 -!- ab5tract has quit. 22:22:49 Well, I did "perl thutu.pl < ul.t2 > ul.pl" and then "time cat 99.ul | perl ul.pl"... on this system it takes ~22 seconds to run the same 99-bottles-of-beer program. 22:22:59 yes, I'm not surprised 22:23:01 Thutu is very slow 22:23:09 when long strings are involved 22:23:16 it slows down when it's trying to store more in memory 22:23:27 sort of like BF programs slow down when thinking about large numbers 22:23:47 Now I'm hoping AnMaster won't notice the useless use of cat there in the timing. :p 22:24:02 wait, that isn't a useless use of cat 22:24:07 it actually took slightly longer 22:24:17 you're timing how long it takes cat to pipe its information into the Underload interp 22:24:21 rather than the Underload interp itself 22:24:31 time perl ul.pl < 99.ul would take slightly longer, I suspect 22:24:57 I think bash's "time" times the whole pipeline, actually. It's not a real command. 22:25:05 ah, ok 22:26:25 Yes; bash manpage: "The format for a pipeline is: [time [-p]] [ ! ] command [ | command2 ... ] -- If the time reserved word precedes a pipeline, the elapsed as well as user and system time consumed by its execution are reported when the pipeline terminates." 22:28:43 Thutu's kind-of hard to write in, because the entire program's in a loop and the end of the loop is the only place you can do I/O 22:28:49 so you have to do a lot of state-saving and such 22:29:28 it's a nice lang apart from that and the huge inefficiency, though, sometimes I use wimpmode Thutu to write things if I can't think of any other way to write them 22:37:12 we should have a #esoteric hardware project 22:37:28 were we collaboratively build a proccessor 22:37:32 bsmntbombdood: interesting 22:37:43 there are notes on a native-INTERCAL processor somewhere 22:37:50 but native Befunge-93 would probably be easier 22:38:20 the language doesn't have to be esoteric 22:38:24 just the actual hardware 22:38:28 ie, pneumatics 22:39:30 I had vague notions of designing a Befunge coprocessor for the "design a MIPS CPU" course -- the project-work was graded so that you got the best grade if you added "any coprosessor you like" -- officially you were supposed to do the MIPS FPU coprosessor, for which the specs were given, but that wasn't actually a "must". 22:40:01 Then I just skipped the course and did some signal-processing instead. :/ 22:40:18 why would anyone want a Befunge coprocessor? 22:40:26 actually, this is #esoteric, scratch that 22:40:40 Well, you could run your Befunge programs faster. 22:40:45 "Duh." 22:40:55 'twould be pretty hard to get compilers to make use of that, I'd think... 22:41:37 Maybe. Although it could be more like a Befunge device than a "coprocessor" in the traditional sense. 22:44:16 now I want to invent an esolang which can only be efficiently interpreted by a high-end GPU 22:44:23 and CPUs are ridiculously slow at 22:44:31 but I'm not really sure how GPUs work, so I don't think I can 22:47:10 The GPU programming languages (like Nvidia's Cg) seem a bit esoteric already, the little that I've seen of them. 22:47:34 actually, most programming languages are eso 22:47:47 if they're intended for anything but running on a standard processor 22:49:30 the easiest way would be to force execution to be massively paralell 22:50:54 dunno how you would do that though 22:51:31 -!- ENKI-][ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:51:51 00:29… ais523: it's a nice lang apart from that and the huge inefficiency, though, sometimes I use wimpmode Thutu to write things if I can't think of any other way to write them <<< did you mean you sometimes use thutu's wimpmode when you can't think of a way to write a program in conventional languages? 22:51:56 yes, I did 22:52:06 heh 22:52:12 the only known Forte interp's written in wimpmode Thutu 22:52:18 I couldn't think of another way to do it 22:52:26 other than effectively compiling the Thutu in my head and writing Perl 22:52:38 i was first asking that as a joke, then realized it's actually more probably you *did* mean it that way 22:52:42 *probable 22:53:25 perhaps i should try thutu too, can't be that bad 22:53:34 but, i gotta read -> 22:54:10 i bet oerjan knows 22:54:20 another way to do it? 22:54:27 IIRC, oerjan tried and never got very far 22:54:58 a way to design a language were execution has to be paralell 22:55:27 ah, ok 22:57:17 -!- ENKI-][ has joined. 22:58:01 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:06:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:15:08 -!- olsner has joined.