00:04:19 -!- Slereah has joined. 00:04:19 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:16:43 -!- Linus` has changed nick to Linus. 00:28:25 -!- Linus has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 00:42:13 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+"). 00:52:27 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:59:00 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:20:29 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 02:01:10 http://www.crazymonkeygames.com/fullscreen.php?game=Pandemic-2 // this game is far more fun than it should be given that the goal is to exterminate humanity. 02:03:51 Pandemic is actually ^pretty meh 02:04:02 Once you get how it works, there's no challenge 02:19:47 -!- cathyal has quit. 02:32:08 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:32:44 -!- Judofyr has joined. 02:33:42 lol @ ctcp ping in topic 02:41:59 -!- lament has joined. 02:42:11 optbot: o hi 02:42:12 lament: is amount of coffee consumed actually related to amount of sleep? 02:42:21 it's proportional! 02:44:14 hi people. 02:51:27 interestingly, there have been some ideas about how to most effectively waken up with coffee when you're getting sleepy 02:51:30 the suggestion is 02:51:41 drink a strong cup of coffee and nap for about 15 minutes to half an hour 02:51:50 by the time you wake up, the caffeine will be kicking in in full force 02:52:12 and having napped, you've gotten some sleep thus reducing your sleepiness 02:52:48 psygnisfive: meh 02:53:02 bsmntbombdood: ive been wondering 02:53:04 i have a solution of caffiene for iv use 02:53:05 you = queer? 02:53:26 well iv caffeine is always a solution 02:53:26 psygnisfive: depends what you mean by queer 02:53:26 or im 02:53:42 do you fuck the same sex as yourself ever 02:54:02 psygnisfive: no, but on a technicality 02:54:13 you dont have sex? 02:54:21 :p 02:54:26 you know what i mean 02:54:29 i presume you're a guy 02:54:34 i'm bi 02:54:38 ok 02:56:43 so you me and oklopol could have a threesome. :D 02:56:56 hells yes 02:57:18 itd be some sort of crazy esorgy 03:01:12 um 03:01:14 http://www.ectomo.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/footpussy.jpg 03:01:20 i think that might count as esoteric sex 03:01:47 Definitely. 03:06:15 * GregorR stabs everything. 03:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I don't name my software like that. 03:07:57 * zbrown stabs all operating systems 03:10:46 psygnisfive: do you drink coffee with sugar? 03:11:05 yes 03:11:22 sugar kicks in very quickly 03:11:36 blech 03:11:42 coffee with sugar is terrible 03:11:50 you must hate cuban coffee then 03:21:12 i like coffee 03:21:17 nothing but coffee beens and water 03:21:40 especially delicious when extracted under high pressure 03:24:18 espresso is indeed delicious 03:39:45 i just solved the halting problem! 03:40:15 er, nevermind, i was wrong 03:47:50 :) 04:07:32 -!- immibis has joined. 04:29:40 It's time to play "spot the GIMPing"! 04:29:46 http://codu.org/pics/other/pec2.jpg // spot the GIMPing! 04:31:50 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:33:44 oooh 04:33:56 nice architecture 04:34:06 but the ball is obvious 04:42:43 nice ball, but the architecture is obvious 04:42:57 :) 04:44:58 is it his shirt? 04:45:22 possibly the fog? 04:53:26 hmm, http://codu.org/hats/BritDrivingCap-sm.jpg is a flat cap? I didn't recognise it from that angle, thought it was something else :) 04:54:03 Reload pec2.jpg , I made some fixes. 04:54:06 But yes, it was the ball. 04:54:10 (And still is) 04:55:22 Looks a lot better now. I think needs some sort of reflection in the cylindrical shiny thing, though, even if it is blurry. And maybe a bit of a shadow. 04:56:10 It has a bit of a shadow. 04:56:40 I don't think it should be reflected ...? 04:56:50 (That is, I don't think my feet are visible) 04:57:14 the ball still looks fake 04:57:36 i can tell you why too 04:57:45 Please do, that's the skill I lack :P 04:58:16 one: the shadow on the ball is dark but the grating isnt as dark 04:58:34 second 04:58:49 look at the direction the light is coming from on your body 04:58:55 its coming from the left, reflecting off the wall 04:59:03 but the ball has light coming from top 04:59:04 slightly right 04:59:22 you're standing in the shadow of a pillar. wheres that light coming from on the ball? 04:59:58 The ball should be lit purely by ambient light I suppose. 05:00:03 no 05:00:10 it should be lit just like you're lit 05:00:25 the lights just coming from the wrong direction 05:00:37 Where should it be coming from? Up and left? 05:00:44 That's what I had before and it seemed funky to me. 05:00:52 same direct as on your body 05:01:16 namely, left ish, maybe slightly up 05:01:26 with some minor specs on the far left and right sides like your shoes 05:09:00 psygnisfive: Refresh. Better or worse? 05:09:52 better with the light, but the shadows are still off. 05:10:04 look around your feet, see how the shadows on the grating are? 05:10:18 I see how they are, I have no idea how to replicate that. 05:10:43 just make the grating dark 05:10:44 i mean 05:11:06 I have to do this manually, don't I X-P 05:11:11 look at the way the grating is 05:11:19 its bright 05:11:23 no shadow on the grating 05:14:23 for absolute photorealism, i recommend filling the screen with #000000 05:14:24 Yeah, I know what you're saying, it's just a bit more tedious than "add a dark area and fade it to 50%" :P 05:15:14 what? 05:15:24 just hand paint a new layer with some black 05:15:26 jesus christ 05:16:10 Yeah, but hand painting = a process X-P 05:16:12 yes, just add a layer of black jesus christ 05:16:15 and it'll be fine 05:17:29 Everything is fine with some black Jesus Christ. 05:19:37 Of course, this time it's uploading SUUUPERSLOOOOOOOWWWWWWWLLLLYYYY 05:22:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:23:05 psygnisfive: Rererererererelook for me? :) 05:23:55 better. make it darker right where the ball meets the grate 05:24:29 GregorR: your swing looks pretty fake too 05:24:47 oklopol: That was an actual swing -_- 05:24:58 GregorR: then maybe i'm calling you a nerd :P 05:25:07 oklopol: But it's difficult to swing well when you're being SOAKED IN EFFING FREEZING COLD WATER 05:25:18 :D 05:25:27 well yeah, possibly 05:26:04 oklopol 05:26:06 GregorR: you're holding that mallot like a pussy 05:26:09 you never answered my question 05:26:42 yes, GregorR, you should hold mallots like cocks, not like pussies 05:26:51 because, you know, they're sticks 05:27:05 psygnisfive: indeed i didn't 05:27:08 what question? 05:27:17 will you marry me 05:27:22 :D 05:27:27 psygnisfive: he's mine bitch 05:27:28 oh, right 05:27:31 i knew you'd say that :D 05:28:07 No problem with polygamy. 05:28:35 indeed 05:28:37 oklopol 05:28:41 is that a yes or no 05:29:06 that's right 05:29:08 infact, bsmntbombdood, you, me, and your girl friend 05:29:16 we could all get married to one another 05:29:17 if you really want me to answer, i guess i could decline, but i'm not sure if you'll prefer that :D 05:29:18 it'll be awesome 05:29:29 *sure you'll 05:29:34 haha 05:29:38 yeah marriage circle 05:29:39 does psygnisfive have male parts or female parts? 05:29:44 male parts 05:30:05 In a jar. 05:30:23 perhaps #esoteric should makes the worlds largest marriage graph 05:30:46 *make 05:30:55 *world's 05:31:04 i suck at s's 05:31:27 see you later, math exam fun -> 05:31:50 you don't them them mormons have a dude with more than 36 wives? 05:32:04 That was quite the sentence. 05:32:19 wow 05:32:44 *you don't think those mormons have a dude with more than 36 wives? 05:32:54 oklopol 05:33:14 bsmntbombdood 05:33:23 * psygnisfive gets on knee 05:33:41 * psygnisfive pulls out two equally awesome ring algebras 05:33:46 will you guys marry me? 05:33:47 only if you got me a cool ring 05:34:02 goddamnit, i don't understand ring algebra 05:34:21 but its really awesome 05:35:01 bsmntbombdood: I don't think many mormoms are married to irc bots. 05:35:19 * GregorR swaps out his personality for a bit of fun. 05:35:21 GOD HATES FAGS 05:35:26 i've always been interested in teledildonics platforms... 05:36:03 oh by the way, does anyone here have access to springerlink through their uni? 05:50:26 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:59:02 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:59:35 -!- Judofyr has joined. 06:27:10 -!- immibis has quit ("Hi Im a qit msg virus. Pls rplce ur old qit msg wit tis 1 & hlp me tk ovr th wrld of IRC. and dlte ur files. and email ths to). 06:56:10 The fungot crash log looks like it has generated some babble without the correct terminating '2' in it. 06:56:10 fizzie: lemme see if i can 06:58:48 I'm still not sure why in a stack "0 -29 -25 -21 ... 87 91 95 46947 3" executing STRN's 'P' instruction turns the stack into "... 87 91 95 99 3". 07:05:32 -!- immibis has joined. 07:06:25 i should find a hobby besides annoying people with irc bots 07:06:50 Is that "using bots to annoy people" or just "annoy people who have bots"? 07:06:59 using bots to annoy people 07:07:01 -!- CoffeeBot has joined. 07:07:08 -!- CoffeeBot has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:07:53 I guess it could've also been that "people who are both annoying and have bots" was the hobby. 07:08:08 no because that doesn't make sense 07:12:59 To the general population, irc bots themselves don't make sense. 07:17:03 My bot doesn't make any sort of sense either. There's no way it could end up in the text output place without having a terminating 2 on the output row. There must be some other issue. 07:35:32 -!- toBogE has joined. 07:44:15 -!- CoffeeBot has joined. 07:44:15 ^echo optbot 07:44:15 optbot optbot 07:44:15 CoffeeBot: just don't claim I made it :) 07:44:16 fungot: running qbf results in some state |S> 07:44:16 optbot: i have that down, i'll have money 07:44:16 fungot: what are the threads? 07:44:16 optbot: huh? only tests a single bit index for pheromones are not fnord 07:44:17 fungot: right 07:44:17 optbot: ummm...i dont know. that is 07:44:18 fungot: this isn't branfuck? 07:44:18 optbot: the latter. see the topic) 07:44:18 fungot: 'A tom' 07:44:36 -!- CoffeeBot has left (?). 07:44:48 bug in optbot: what is branfuck? 07:44:48 immibis: in fatbot 07:45:03 oh, whatever. In fatbot then 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:44 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 08:03:25 -!- fungot has quit ("just testing..."). 08:04:25 -!- fungot has joined. 08:06:28 Haven't fungotized the Befungized Underload interp yet, but I bumped the cycle count up a bit. 08:06:28 fizzie: they are talking to you 08:06:33 ^ul (:aSS):aSS 08:06:37 (:aSS):aSS 08:08:11 ? 08:08:14 ^help 08:08:14 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text] 08:08:24 oh ok 08:08:41 ^bf +[[.+]+] 08:08:42 .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ... 08:11:24 Newlines are filtered a bit. 08:11:32 But that Underload interp is the brainfuck one. 08:11:34 ^show ul 08:11:34 >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>] 08:11:51 It used to be too slow to run that (:aSS):aSS quine. 08:15:12 ... 08:15:16 thats a big program 08:15:17 morning 08:15:49 Deewiant, I ran some coverage analysis on efunge when running mycology, you never test wrapping straight up or straight down (so the cardinal y wrapping code is never hit) 08:16:00 Mornung. 08:16:38 Deewiant, nor do you go out of bounds above or below the code at all 08:17:08 AnMaster: It might interest you to know that fungot's now running on cfunge. (Testing whether the occasional hangup might be a RC/Funge bug. Probably isn't, but you never know.) 08:17:09 fizzie: cat /dev/ mem? how does one convert ( ' ( n e v e r s e)) 08:17:43 fizzie, well you may hit some cfunge bugs, if you do, report 08:18:16 Sure. 08:18:29 fizzie, also I got no idea if rc/funge is valgrind clean, but a debug build of cfunge is, apart from not freeing the handle list used in SOCK and FILE. (So two "still reachable") 08:18:38 a release build will give a lot more still reachable 08:18:53 AnMaster: yes, I know this. 08:19:21 Deewiant, also you don't test ) for negative values of count it seems :) 08:19:25 I assume that if you can get it to work in one direction you can get it to work in any other direction. 08:19:29 ( yes, but but ( 08:19:29 err 08:19:31 ( yes, but but ) 08:19:37 s/but but/but not/ 08:19:38 not* 08:19:54 indeed, I just had breakfast. Still sleepy... 08:20:14 hmm, it /should/ try ) with a negative count 08:20:26 -!- oklocod has joined. 08:20:30 maybe I typoed and it does ( twice 08:21:10 What should () with negative count do? 08:21:16 UNDEF 08:21:33 But is there some sort of sensible behaviour? 08:21:38 Deewiant, well coverage analysis claims you don't try ) with negative 08:21:57 AnMaster: but does mycology output "UNDEF: ) with a negative"... 08:21:59 fizzie, 1) reflect (what I do) 2) pop |count| 3) other 08:22:08 UNDEF: ( with a negative count reflects and pops 0 times or less than the absolute value of the count 08:22:08 UNDEF: ) with a negative count reflects and pops 0 times or less than the absolute value of the count 08:22:12 2) isn't necessarily sensible 08:22:33 ah well, I guess I'll have to fix that then 08:23:56 Hacked in that "chroot+setuid after starting" thing so I don't have to have to bother with a real chroot with libraries and everything. 08:23:58 wtf did someone mess with some bot to make it /msg me? 08:24:18 "* CoffeeBot__ is making a coffee in an office mug with cold milk to help him wake up for you" 08:24:20 just got that 08:24:21 i asked it to make coffee on account of you being asleep 08:24:21 weird 08:24:53 immibis, I don't drink coffee, this morning I had some fruit juice, and a slice of bread 08:25:41 ok 08:27:13 Deewiant, you never attempts to unload a valid fingerprint when none is loaded? I'm unsure, it may be that the case is detected earlier in my code than in the fingerprint instr stack popping code. 08:27:49 not sure if I do 08:28:11 no I can't see any obvious place where it would have been detected... 08:29:38 oh anmaster your away is set to sleeping 08:29:52 immibis, better now? 08:30:02 Deewiant, nor do you test MODU's signed division for positive x and y I think 08:30:22 probably because it's not interesting 08:30:35 again, if it can get it right for negatives it's probably right for positives. 08:31:14 FIXP's rand() for negative arguments (or equal to 0) isn't tested either 08:31:23 and that could be worth testing 08:31:31 if the implementation does rand() % argument 08:31:35 for argument == 0 08:31:37 :D 08:32:12 FIXP's acos() never ends up hitting inf or nan either. 08:32:36 it's sqrt() doesn't seem to be tested on negative numbers 08:33:15 CPLI div isn't tested for cases when Bi * Bi + Br * Br == 0 08:34:39 oh and CPLI's abs() doesn't hit nan or inf either, but that may not be possible. (Unsure). 08:34:51 Deewiant, ^ 08:35:02 AnMaster: submit a patch. 08:35:19 there are edge cases everywhere, I can't be bothered to test every single one. 08:36:05 Deewiant, the FIXP randomness one could be worth testing, since I'm sure at least cfunge would have gotten division by zero there originally. (It doesn't since a few months, due to my fuzz testing) 08:38:48 immibis, glad you didn't forget to remove the milk from the orange juice :P 08:41:02 theres currently three ghosts of coffeebot online due to lag and apparently the server is not disconnecting them 08:41:30 ...ok the first disconnected 08:42:18 immibis, I got two messages from that bot both times 08:42:45 so two of them at least were alive at the same time 08:43:25 no i sent the first, it lagged and got ghosted, so i restarted it and sent the second 08:43:46 its a very badly coded bot. it needs recompiling to change the nick it connects with, and if the nick is in use it does nothing 08:45:11 theyve all quit now 08:45:16 -!- CoffeeBot has joined. 08:45:33 here too? :( 08:45:43 immibis: easy way out, add a "raw" command 08:45:59 immibis: ThutuBot needs recompiling to change its nick too... 08:46:06 immibis, as it is here is it 1) coded in an esolang or 2) runs esolang related stuff? 08:46:08 oh, well doesn't help if nick is in use to begin with 08:46:09 i have a raw command 08:46:10 ais523, hi 08:46:14 hi AnMaster 08:46:15 ais523, didn't know you were here 08:46:17 er good point 08:46:20 !p #esoteric 08:46:20 -!- CoffeeBot has left (?). 08:46:22 I only just joned 08:46:31 so I'll be uncommunicative for a while 08:46:35 joned, heh 08:46:43 well, joined 08:46:46 LOL he typoed :D 08:46:54 what a noab! 08:46:57 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol. 08:47:05 * oklopol is implementing noprob 08:47:07 fungot needs source-code-changes to change the nick too (surprise!) and also doesn't really handle the nick-in-use case. 08:47:08 fizzie: " yes." however, i cannot put a let statment are evaluated is compiler-defined. 08:47:22 fungot: That's not a real explanation. 08:47:22 fizzie: i must depart. but, yeah, i don't really know 08:47:42 oklopol, ... It just sounded funny in Swedish kind of 08:47:47 the typo 08:48:00 "jon" == ion 08:48:38 AnMaster: i was half making fun of you, and half actually laughing at the typo, so neither of you need be offended! 08:48:39 so in my head it turned out somewhat like ionized by mixing the Swedish meaning with the English -ed suffix. 08:48:51 oklopol: Are you sure that doesn't mean both can get offended. 08:49:04 hmm 08:49:08 fizzie: yes 08:50:13 fizzie, those changes for chroot + setuid means you need to start it as root right? 08:50:27 hm... I wonder how that interacts with resource limits... 08:50:29 most OSs only let root chroot things 08:50:46 ais523, he could make the binary suid root ;P 08:50:57 and also how it interacts with PERL. 08:51:03 hmm... or use Cygwin 08:51:06 as in the fingerprint 08:51:07 where non-root can chroot things IIRC 08:51:20 Yes. (Well, you could do it with the correct capabilities too, I guess.) It drops root privileges immediately after parsing the getopt results, though. 08:51:24 ais523, really? Well I doubt it means anything for security in cygwin. 08:51:25 although it doesn't really work like a typical secure chroot, as all the Win32 API functions just ignore it 08:51:35 AnMaster: yep, it's just there so chroot stuff works 08:51:42 fizzie, file system caps :D 08:52:11 fizzie, hm if it drops it there then it needs to have the source file in the chroot 08:52:17 Yes, it does. 08:52:43 Although the user it setuid()s to only has read permissions for the source file, not write. 08:54:04 fizzie, fun fact: avoid loading your language model data using i if you ever planned changing, cfunge uses mmap() to simply reading (handling \r\n across the boundary between two fread() chunks was just too painful...) 08:54:52 FILE use streams though 08:54:55 and so does o 08:55:59 I don't think I'll ever try to get that language model stuff to the funge-space; it seems to work just fine by simply seeking around the file and reading few bytes here and there. 08:56:06 heh 08:56:42 fizzie, using R? 08:56:48 Yes. 08:56:57 cfunge's quite a bit faster than RC/Funge, though. Changed the brainfuck interpreter amount-of-instructions limit from 200k to 600k, and it still says "out of time" in a reasonable time, I think 08:57:02 ^bf +[] 08:57:13 ...out of time! 08:57:29 and yes cfunge is fast, that was one of the design goals 08:57:36 tracing slows it down a lot though 08:57:39 And 600k is enough for the Underload quine, most importantly. 08:58:06 it worries me that a quine would need a limit of 600k... 08:58:09 since it traces to stderr, and stderr is unbuffered 08:58:12 ^ul (:aSS):aSS 08:58:16 (:aSS):aSS 08:58:20 yay 08:58:33 ^ul (a(:^)*S):^ 08:58:40 (a(:^)*S):^ 08:58:41 fizzie, 600 * 1024 bf instructions? 08:58:54 (the second one is Keymaker's version, it works a different way) 08:59:11 AnMaster: Actually 600000. And it's bytecode instructions, so things like +++++ are a single instruction. 08:59:19 ah 08:59:25 ^show ul 08:59:25 >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>] 08:59:38 was that cut off by irc? 08:59:41 Yes. 08:59:44 ah 08:59:46 how long is it? 09:00:08 it's pretty long 09:00:29 fizzie, oh an idea, [-] into c (clear cell) 09:00:34 Around 800 instructions unless I missed some other instruction in-between. 09:00:35 ^show 09:00:35 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp 09:00:46 No, ctcp is immediately after ul; so 800 instructions, then. 09:01:02 fizzie, eh? 09:01:09 huh? 09:01:15 They're in the state file in the same order as in ^show. 09:01:23 oh and? 09:01:29 I looked into that to see how long the program was when compiled into that bytecode. 09:01:36 ok. 09:02:12 oh and G in FILE is quite ineffective in cfunge. 09:02:20 so avoid it in performance critical code 09:02:30 AnMaster: you mean "inefficient", I think 09:02:34 "ineffective" means "doesn't work" 09:02:35 ais523, ah yes.... 09:02:44 it works but is kind of suboptimal 09:02:49 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:02:56 (it reads one char at a time then appends those to a string buffer) 09:02:59 G is used only at startup when it loads the state-file. It was easiest to do line-delimited stuff there. 09:03:10 fizzie, I guess it works well enough for that 09:04:03 ais523, and "ineffektivt" in Swedish means "inefficient" 09:04:08 so that is why I confuse them 09:04:08 ah, yes 09:04:22 ais523, "ah yes"? 09:04:35 "I see what you mean now" 09:04:36 like you knew it but had momentarily forgot it? 09:04:39 ah ok 09:04:42 you told me before 09:04:48 oh ok 09:04:48 so it was a case of remembering, too 09:04:51 I see 09:04:58 * AnMaster don't remember having mentioned it 09:05:05 err doesn't* 09:05:06 in there 09:05:26 you made the same mistake a few weeks ago, and I corrected you then, IIRC 09:06:00 fizzie, anyway did you do a release build or a debug buil? 09:06:02 build* 09:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | For outputting BugSophia: Gimme a RUNIC LETTER STAN!. 09:07:18 hm 09:07:26 wtf @ topic 09:10:57 A release build, I think; I just bzr'd your thing, then ran cmake with -DUSE_64BIT=OFF (I don't really need 64-bit addressing and that box is an oldish Pentium M) and -DJAIL=ON (the chroot thing). 09:11:25 hm 09:11:51 actually that may be something in between 09:12:16 since CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE wouldn't be set 09:12:51 considered release by cfunge's "clean up on exit to please valgrind code" 09:12:57 but cflags, not sure 09:13:46 If the cmake-generated flags.make has all the cflags, then it indeed doesn't seem to have -O2 in it. 09:14:09 fizzie, cfunge builds and works fine at -O3 -fweb even here 09:14:56 but I'm unsure about flags.make 09:15:13 -!- toBogE has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:15:26 C_FLAGS = -pipe -march=k8 -O2 -msse3 -O3 -DNDEBUG -fweb -I/home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src .... 09:15:32 in the release build tree 09:15:38 and C_FLAGS = -pipe -march=k8 -msse3 -ggdb3 -I/home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src ... 09:15:41 in the debug one 09:15:59 -O2 -O3 heh... 09:18:29 fizzie, so it could probably be even faster :D 09:19:05 for that "game of life in befunge 93" -O3 makes a *LOT* of difference 09:19:11 however it will be harder to catch bugs 09:19:50 Okay, I did -O3 now, just in case. (Actually I just ran ccmake on the build dir and changed the build type to Release, it seems to have added at least -O3 there.) 09:20:00 yes it would 09:20:04 why do people have difficulty debugging at O3, by the way? 09:20:09 fizzie, you may want to set -march 09:20:16 ais523, "value optimised out" 09:20:22 yes, it makes the code jump around a lot 09:20:35 well that is the reason. 09:20:37 and you can't always variable queries directly 09:20:43 but normally there's some way to get at the value 09:20:51 ais523, x86 asm dump, register dump, sure whatever 09:20:52 like evaluating an expression that's in the code 09:20:55 I don't do that sort of stuff 09:21:09 e.g. if you're calling a function with the arg (y*2)+1 09:21:13 (since I find x86 asm bloody awful) 09:21:14 then p (y*2)+1 normally works 09:21:18 even if p y doesn't 09:21:26 So, how do I add extra CFLAGS to that thing easily? 09:21:39 fizzie, in ccmake you hit t for "advanced screen" 09:21:44 cflags should be found there 09:21:52 Ah, okay. 09:22:02 fizzie, called CMAKE_CFLAGS or something like that iirc 09:22:31 actually CMAKE_C_FLAGS 09:22:58 the resulting cflags will be CMAKE_C_FLAGS + CMAKE_C_FLAGS_${YOUR BUILD TYPE IN UPPERCASE} 09:23:06 Must restart that thing, then. 09:23:13 -!- fungot has quit ("flaggity flag"). 09:23:23 fizzie, well yeah cfunge doesn't do hot code swapping ;P 09:24:00 -!- fungot has joined. 09:24:08 ^ul (a(:^)*S):^ 09:24:12 (a(:^)*S):^ 09:24:13 At least the brainfuck infinite-loop was faster. 09:24:17 fizzie, oh? 09:24:17 And that, too, I guess. 09:24:22 ^bf +[] 09:24:26 didn't really dee any difference 09:24:27 ...out of time! 09:24:48 ah yes, a bit over 10 seconds before. less than 10 now 09:24:56 This time five seconds (as seen from my viewpoint; and we're on the same server with fungot). Last time it was 14 seconds. 09:24:57 fizzie: i'll make one. when does sxyz ignore its argument? 09:25:03 +ul (:^):^ 09:25:05 ...out of time! 09:25:06 fizzie, well for the "game of life" for example, as I said it makes huge difference 09:25:33 +ul (a(:^)*S):^ 09:25:34 (a(:^)*S):^ 09:25:40 now that was quite a bit faster 09:25:55 but it isn't in bf interpreted by befunge either 09:25:57 AnMaster: thutubot's Underload interp is written in Thutu, rather than being written in BF written in Funge... 09:26:05 yeah 09:26:15 ofc neither is particularly efficient, but I suspect thutubot's method is faster 09:26:25 ais523, well yeah 09:26:37 The stand-alone Funge-98 Underload seems pretty fast. 09:26:44 and thutubot got a lot faster once I started storing the timeout counter in balanced binary rather than in unary 09:26:46 heh 09:26:47 Should just stick it into the bot. 09:26:53 fizzie, that could be messy 09:27:08 considering it may have fixed ideas about temp storage locations 09:27:24 Yes, a few numbers need to be changed. 09:27:31 ais523, balanced binary?... 09:27:38 Still, I wrote it with the intention of sticking it into the bot sooner or later. 09:27:39 AnMaster: binary with digits 1,0,-1 09:27:45 ais523, um... 09:27:47 it uses 1 and 0 normally 09:27:50 this sounds horrible 09:27:54 ais523, well so does computers 09:27:56 but once the count reaches 0 it starts filling it with -1s 09:28:07 because it's easier to figure out when it reaches the end that way 09:28:11 I use the -1s for carry propagation 09:28:14 heh 09:28:19 well, borrow propagation 09:28:25 fizzie, ah 09:28:29 because arithmetic via regex is hard 09:28:52 Thutu arithmetic is probably easier than INTERCAL arithmetic, though, still... 09:29:21 AnMaster, fizzie: just run inside a {, that's the main reason the instruction exists :-P 09:29:27 * AnMaster gets a nasty idea 09:29:57 AnMaster: what is it? 09:30:08 hmm, probabilities, and satisfaction don't really mix in my head 09:30:09 hmm... a sandbox fingerprint? 09:30:15 Deewiant: I don't like {; it gets so messy to access not-related-to-the-code storage then. 09:30:17 *probabilities and satisfaction 09:30:20 1) make = in efunge evaluate erlang expressions 2) Make = mark the program as "tainted", somewhat like when you load a binary module into the linux kernel 09:30:22 :D 09:30:39 i'm having a hard time even implementing just the brute-force way to interpret noprob 09:30:41 fizzie: well, you're not supposed to do that :-P 09:30:43 Deewiant: Plus I don't like the fact that it sets storage offset to ip+delta; is there even a comfortable way of specifying an arbitrary storage offset? 09:30:48 AnMaster: can you untaint the program by matching it against a regex? 09:30:52 that works for Perl... 09:30:58 ais523, huh...? 09:31:02 fizzie: {, followed by u to push what offset you want, followed by } 09:31:03 Deewiant: There's the input given to the program, for one thing. And the output going out. I don't want to copy that around all the time. 09:31:10 AnMaster: in Perl tainted data is data that comes from an unknown source 09:31:19 the only way to untaint it is to run it through a regex 09:31:24 ais523, ah well I meant in the same meaning as the linux kernel 09:31:27 captured groups from the regex are untainted 09:31:29 fizzie: I think you could push the output via u unless you're mutating it a lot 09:31:37 ais523: how? 09:31:44 and the input you could place inside the { area 09:31:46 from outside it 09:31:50 oklopol: because the Perl interp assumes you know what you're doing 09:31:52 ais523, which is "binary/closed source module has been loaded, any crash backtrace will be unusable for kernel developers" 09:31:57 it is shown on crash 09:31:58 and that the regex was defined to check that the input was safe 09:32:05 hmm, right 09:32:08 interesting 09:32:29 so you can just do $unsafeinput =~ /^(.*)$/; $safeinput=$1; 09:32:37 if you know anything but newlines are safe 09:32:38 for instance 09:32:46 if you were expecting a number you do $unsafeinput 09:33:09 *if you were expecting a number you do $unsafeinput =~ /^(-?[0-9]+)$/ or die; $safeinput=$1; 09:33:15 that way you get an untainted number or an error 09:33:16 Deewiant: Okay, u-output could work. I just like the well-specified absolute addresses more. On the other hand, if this ATHR thing ever gets off the ground and I want to run interpreters concurrently, I guess I'll sort-of need to use the storage offset to help the different instances coexist. 09:33:17 and you can't do anything but matching with an unsafe string? 09:33:31 you can do most things but the result is tainted 09:33:35 oh 09:33:37 e.g. concatentating it, or whatever 09:33:53 there are various things you can't do: you can't pass it as input to a shell command, for instance 09:33:58 i'm loving this 09:34:00 Deewiant: Actually using 'u' didn't occur to me; I'm more of a Befunge-93 person. 09:34:02 awesome 09:34:06 ais523, what if you want to do it with something else than regex? Maybe write your own code to check it in a custom way, like is the normal way in for example C? 09:34:07 fizzie: :-) 09:34:26 AnMaster: well you just pass it to a regex at the end to tell Perl you've checked it 09:34:30 it needs checking, and it needs a regex 09:34:36 the checking doesn't have to be in the regex though 09:34:37 hah 09:34:47 ais523, that seems rather silly to me 09:34:54 well, yes 09:34:57 but it's very Perly 09:35:04 what about matching but keeping it tainted? 09:35:06 using regex 09:35:14 you can taint data whenever you like 09:35:29 ais523, anyway see above for what I actually meant 09:35:34 yes, I know what you meant 09:35:42 the problem with variables with a probability in noprob is, you can't just store the probability, becauce vars may not be independent 09:35:46 *because 09:36:03 incidentally, doesn't y have a code for meaning "= has the same meaning as eval in the lang this interpreter is written in"? 09:36:13 ais523, no don't think so 09:36:20 yes it does 09:36:32 oklopol: ah, I know what you're getting at 09:36:33 ah 09:36:36 right 09:36:40 that's the same problem people have simulating a quantum computer 09:36:53 you have lots of probabilities that depend on each other, so it's a pain to simualte 09:36:56 *simulate 09:37:07 except with a quantum computer it's worse because the probabilities are complex numbers 09:37:22 Regex is not the only way, though: "Values may be untainted by using them as keys in a hash; otherwise the only way to bypass the tainting mechanism is by referencing subpatterns from a regular expression match." 09:37:34 ah, I forgot the keys in a hash one 09:37:42 although I don't really get why it exists 09:37:43 ais523: but i was thinking, perhaps i should store everything the variable depends on and their independent probability, and check if vars are independent with an intersection 09:37:53 did anyone understand xkcd today? 09:38:07 so i can use math in most cases, because usually the vars do *not* depend on each other 09:38:10 oklopol: that sounds like an optimisation, does it solve the underlying problem though? 09:38:49 ais523: So you can untaint $x with the very pretty $x = (keys %{{ $x => 1 }})[0]; construct. 09:38:52 ais523: if the vars aren't independent, i will take all random vars the variables depend on, and enumerate all possible settings for them 09:39:06 and check what the probability is for each pair 09:39:07 fizzie: does that even need the keys in there 09:39:27 $x = (%{{$x=>1}})[0] would work, wouldn't it? 09:39:48 Yes, I think it would. 09:39:54 or would it need to be written $x= @{[%{{$x=>1}} 09:40:00 The intention is clearer with the "keys". :p 09:40:00 or would it need to be written $x= @{[%{{$x=>1}}]}[0] 09:40:07 Perl casts are great... 09:40:25 fizzie: that keys is inefficient! 09:43:43 AnMaster: "Burma-Shave was an American brand of brushless shaving cream, famous for its advertising gimmick of posting humorous rhyming poems on small, consecutive highway billboard signs." 09:44:24 what's it called when you use those funky trees to get optimal prefix-codes for tokens? 09:44:38 hm 09:45:06 oklopol: Huffman coding? 09:45:11 thanks 09:45:16 remembered it has an H 09:46:25 there's Shannon coding too but normally it doesn't work as well 09:46:35 yes, i know the story 09:46:36 but in theory, you could end up with neither of them being optimal 09:46:44 IIRC 09:46:47 nah 09:46:51 huffman is optimal 09:47:01 shannon isn't 09:47:04 90% 1 vs. 10% 0, the most optimal method is not to give them one bit each 09:47:18 you could have, for instance, 00=0, 01=1, 1=111 09:47:29 but I don't think Huffman coders take that sort of thing into accoutn 09:47:30 well that's a different coding scheme 09:47:31 *account 09:47:44 oklopol: well, isn't that proof that Huffman isn't always optimal? 09:47:47 no. of course you can get better compression given more sophisticated schemes 09:47:54 ais523: nothing is always optimal 09:48:03 yes, obviously 09:48:17 huffman is optimal if you only have codes for *single tokens*, and codes are static 09:48:22 yes 09:48:32 but, shannon is *never* optimal 09:48:36 well 09:48:37 markov-chain codes tend to do better 09:48:37 i mean 09:48:46 it's only optimal when it has the same result as Huffman 09:48:49 of course it's sometimes optimal, but it's never always optimal :P 09:48:52 yes 09:49:00 or isomorphic 09:50:37 I have an optimal compression algorithm for some common data in esolang contexts 09:51:12 most significant bit set = "Hello, World!", most significant bit not set = 99 Bottles of beer. Any other value is ignored. 09:51:13 :D 09:51:38 "any other value is ignored"? :D 09:52:03 please show example of ignored encoding 09:52:04 AnMaster: that's very HQ9+-like 09:52:04 oklopol, well yeah, I didn't say it could encode everything did I? 09:52:22 oklopol, as in "any other bit but the MSB is ignored" 09:52:23 oklopol: Most significant bit. I assume it's a multi-bit number we're talking about. 09:52:31 in the single byte 09:52:37 Oh, right. 09:52:38 ais523, yes I know 09:52:42 hmm... is "Hello, World!" a quine in HQ9+... 09:52:44 i'm just being pedantic here, fizzie 09:52:49 s/\.\.\.$/?/ 09:52:54 oklopol: Yes, I'm just being slow. :p 09:52:59 1 = hw, 0 = 99bob, X = ignored 09:53:03 solve for X 09:54:45 heh 09:55:36 'X' - strong drive, unknown logic value 09:56:08 high impedance 09:56:19 it shall not take any value for an answer! 09:57:07 oklopol: high impedance is Z 09:57:17 fizzie: actually, normally I treat "X" as meaning "short circuit" 09:57:25 ais523: it's a variable 09:57:26 because it's what you get if you strongly drive something to both 0 and 1 09:57:29 here 09:57:33 X = Z is fine. 09:57:40 oklopol, I think they are thinking VHDL 09:57:43 nerds. ;P 09:57:46 yes, 9-valued booleans 09:57:47 * AnMaster ducks 09:57:49 you have to love VHDL 09:57:58 AnMaster: well i'm thinking just general circuits 09:58:24 anyway, even if you aren't an electronic engineer I think you can appreciate that strongly driving the same part of the circuit simultaneously to 0 and 1 is a bad idea 09:58:39 yeah guess so 09:58:43 what is weak driving then? 09:58:49 and what is strong driving? 09:58:58 and what about driving faster than speed limit? 09:58:58 weak driving is via a resistor 09:58:59 ;P 09:59:03 whereas strong driving is direct 09:59:14 in theory, strongly driving something to 0 is like connecting it to the negative power supply 09:59:26 and strongly driving something to 1 is like connecting it to the positive power supply 09:59:43 whereas weak driving can be overriden via strong driving 09:59:53 strong 0 + strong 1 = short circuit (X) 09:59:59 strong 0 + weak 1 = strong 0 10:00:13 so what do you get when you connect something to both? Say a lamp to both ends of a battery? 10:00:13 weak 0 + weak 1 = weak 0.5, or some other non-integral value (W) 10:00:25 AnMaster: the lamp itself is a resistor there 10:00:33 ah 10:00:36 what about leds then? 10:00:41 basically whatever you put between 0 and 1 either has to block the current, or use up the energy flowing through it 10:00:52 if you put a wire there, it can't block the current because it's a wire and designed not to 10:00:59 so it has to use up the energy flowing through it 10:01:05 which it normally does by becoming very hot and melting 10:01:08 * AnMaster puts a diod the wrong way around between ais523's 1 and 0 10:01:24 AnMaster: which way's "the wrong way"? 10:01:30 reverse, so it blocks the current? 10:01:37 or forward, so it doesn't block the current and catches fire? 10:01:38 ais523, POLARITY REVERSE! 10:01:39 ;P 10:01:46 arguably reverse polarity is the safer one here 10:02:11 On the other hand it doesn't accomplish anything. 10:02:23 hopefully that should give you radio Moscow (iirc) 10:02:24 At least the one catching fire is doing something. 10:02:30 it does actually, because you can put an ammeter across the diode and determine how leaky it is 10:02:34 ais523, and iirc you read the book so you should get that reference 10:02:35 :P 10:02:36 which is useful if you're into measuring diodes 10:02:46 Misread "because you can put an AnMaster across the diode and determine how leaky it is" 10:03:00 * AnMaster slaps fizzie with a trout 10:03:02 measuring diodes is more useful than setting them on fire, IIRC 10:03:05 I'm not sure which one is the leaky one here. 10:03:28 ais523: If you *recall* correctly? So, uh, you read that in a book? 10:03:36 ais523, didn't get the reference?... 10:03:38 I meant IMO rather than IIRC, I think 10:03:57 AnMaster: I almost got it, but wasn't sure what it was 10:04:05 I thought "there's a reference to something there" 10:04:05 ais523, Good Omens 10:04:22 still don't get the reference, although I know it exists 10:04:25 ais523, if you still can't figure it out you need to re-read that book 10:04:38 and yes, everyone needs to re-read Good Omens 10:04:40 as many times as possible 10:04:49 ais523, I have 5 times or so at least 10:04:54 I just read it not many weeks ago; do I _really_ have to reread it again? 10:05:02 I've only read it about 3 times so far 10:05:09 fizzie, you don't get the reference either!? 10:05:48 AnMaster: I assume it's something Newton Pulsifer did; but ais523 said everyone needs to reread it anyway. 10:05:56 fizzie, well it is 10:07:08 fizzie, the book mentioned some magazine once published a "joke circuit schema" that wouldn't work, but when Newton Pulsifer built it, it received Radio Moscow 10:07:16 Yes, I remember that bit. 10:07:21 ah yes, I remember that now 10:07:27 it also mentioned "diods the wrong way around" 10:07:32 for that joke circuit schema 10:07:40 that was the connection 10:08:15 really you need to work a bit on your Pratchett trivia knowledge ;P 10:09:04 also it may have been some other station than "Radio Moscow", not 100% sure there 10:09:07 bbiab. 10:10:08 "It had diodes the wrong way round, transistors upside down, and a flat battery. Newt had built it, and it picked up Radio Moscow." 10:13:34 noprob is unimplementable 10:13:39 fucking unimplementable :| 10:13:52 oklopol: hmm... Feather makes me feel the same way, or worse 10:13:58 because I'm almost convinced it is implementable 10:14:06 I just find it really hard to figure out how 10:14:38 the problem is, usually i can at least implement some incredibly slow brute-force interpreter 10:14:51 but in this case that's simply excruciatingly hard 10:26:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:30:01 hi oerjan 10:30:28 good moaning 10:36:59 fizzie, what page? 10:37:28 I don't know, it came from a .rtf file in that same pile I used for fungot's discworld training. :p 10:37:29 fizzie: factloop is recursive, but it's handy. 10:37:33 ah 10:37:43 fizzie, Good Omens aren't discworld 10:37:59 Yes, I meant the same "around a thousand ebooks" pile. 10:38:12 fizzie, all legal? ;P 10:38:25 also a thousand... that's a lot of ebooks 10:38:33 None of them legal is my guess. 10:38:46 oh well 10:38:55 600 megabytes; got that as a CD several years ago from a friend. 10:39:12 heh... 10:39:25 fizzie, what dict is fungot on now? 10:39:26 AnMaster: mwahah life is good. it is 10:39:31 irc I gues... 10:39:31 The old irclogs one. 10:39:41 yeah 10:39:44 And he certainly seems to enjoy it. 10:39:54 yep 10:39:57 hi fungot 10:39:58 ais523: if you email the mit scheme ref. google just turns up mailing list posts 10:40:01 hi optbot 10:40:01 ais523: El dato que nada importa. 10:40:12 huh 10:40:15 hmm... thutubot doesn't react when I mention its name 10:40:20 it ought to really 10:40:26 ais523, in what way? 10:40:35 markov? 10:40:36 * ais523 wonders how long it will be before optbot starts returning fungot-generated stuff 10:40:36 ais523: of course +1 is wrong :) 10:40:36 ais523: when i came across a program once control will never re-enter that point, then later hit i to go into grad school 10:40:37 AnMaster: no idea 10:40:58 Optimally you need a third paradigm for babble-generation; optbot and fungot are slightly different, after all. 10:40:59 fizzie: yeah, that doesn't halt? 10:40:59 fizzie: Of course as far as I know I'm the only person to use this pronoun. 10:41:19 fizzie, yes, but what one would that be? 10:41:26 ALICE style maybe? 10:41:30 markov-chaining the letters? 10:41:30 And I think it's only fair fungot's the one who's more messed-up in the head. 10:41:30 fizzie: should be " prefix", and that functionality which can be adjust with forms like this: 10:41:38 ais523, ALICE bot 10:41:47 hm fungot needs a corpus made from famous speeches 10:41:47 oerjan: fnord firefox doesn't have bugs? will paredit be classified as an esolang 10:41:50 we had alicebot vs. fungot a while ago IIRC 10:41:51 ais523: you know if the source code 10:41:59 but I was trying to think up something unusual 10:42:14 "Fnord and seven years ago ..." 10:42:17 To be or not to fnord, kindom for a fnord 10:42:21 an order-3 markov chain on letters not words would probably result in absolute nonsense, with no advantages other than being pronouncable 10:42:30 The lovecraft texts generated a _lot_ of fnords. 10:42:33 oerjan, what would that be from? 10:42:40 AnMaster: Lincoln 10:42:53 oerjan, hm. 10:43:02 US president right? 10:43:03 or? 10:43:06 yes 10:43:10 fungot: Do some Cthulhu stuff again for a bit. 10:43:10 fizzie: i tried not to heed him; tried to break through the paralysis which held me, and now and then to burst forth in a fnord anywhere that afforded me an opportunity to be near the college, and am fnord of get'g, there be'g ii. goode fnord in towne, dr, bowen and sam: fnord. 10:43:29 "be'g"? 10:43:47 and get'g well yeah both ' and g gets from funge space 10:43:55 Thutubot wouldn't really be suited for random gibberish though 10:44:01 as Thutu has no random number function 10:44:09 oh actually, "Four fnord and seven years ago ..." 10:44:13 and no really sensible way to store data but the source code 10:44:16 "be'g" as in "being" in a folksy way. 10:44:41 ais523, alice bot then? 10:44:51 Thutu would probably be good at that 10:44:54 but I don't like alicebots 10:44:58 ais523, why not? 10:45:03 I don't think I have a lot of speeches available right now. The Europarl speeches generated quite nonsensical stuff. 10:45:09 they always sound stupid and aritifical 10:45:18 ais523, I seen some pretty good ones 10:45:30 and they just keep on talking on the same subject as me 10:45:35 people never do that in real life 10:45:41 that can keep track of different topics for different speakers 10:45:56 ais523, so you need to mess around with that a bit so it sometimes changes topic 10:45:58 ;P 10:45:58 also, the vocabulary tends to be limited to mine 10:46:19 probably why I don't like alicebots is obvious if you just pipe two of them into each other 10:46:27 the result tends to be obviously awful 10:46:33 ais523, oh? 10:46:40 because both of them are trying to generate a conversation off what the other says 10:46:44 whilst being non-commital themself 10:46:45 haha 10:46:53 because they don't know about any subjects themself... 10:46:54 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettysburg_Address#Lincoln.27s_Gettysburg_Address 10:47:14 oerjan: Wikiquote will be better for Wikipedia for that sort of thing, probably 10:47:21 ais523, what about mixing that up with some markov stuff? 10:47:34 an Alicemarkovbot? 10:47:36 or what? 10:47:36 Okay, I fed it everything in my gutenberg pile having the word "speeches" in the title. :p 10:47:45 fungot: Be pompous for us, please. 10:47:45 fizzie: in the mean time, it was done. before that, two indians were placed on the council of the fnord fnord 10:48:08 Ooh, the council of the fnord fnord. 10:48:12 that makes sense apart from the fnords 10:48:43 ais523, yes such a bot 10:48:55 fungot, ... 10:48:56 AnMaster: i consider this, sir, i greatly deceive myself, that the judge is to hear the government accused of avoiding the discussion of the right honourable baronet proposes to punish brazil for the slave trade, not in themselves presumptively criminal, but actions neutral and indifferent the whole matter, in which mode of government, there is an archbishop with ten thousand a year, he has done for him more than the ordinary b 10:48:56 actually, I've had a brilliant idea for something to Markov-chain 10:48:59 gzipped text 10:49:06 fizzie, you just changed to EU one? 10:49:11 wait no 10:49:31 if you markov on compressed text, presumably it'll still have the right format, apart from maybe checksums 10:49:31 fungot, that make no sense 10:49:31 AnMaster: yours very sincerely and respectfully, abraham lincoln, fnord 10:49:42 oh famouse speeches 10:49:43 yay 10:49:49 Here's the list: http://zem.fi/~fis/speeches.txt 10:49:55 and decompressing it will presumably lead to something with a coherent subject 10:50:02 fizzie, tried shakespear? 10:50:03 oh so lincoln was a fnord too 10:50:03 because the same things will be said on many occasions 10:50:11 fungot, . 10:50:11 AnMaster: " there are who, while to vulgar eyes they seem of all my honours, i am sure that my colleagues will not fnord, seeing that there is a fnord, is almost totally wanting, and then you will be prepared against these inconveniences. 10:50:52 ais523, how do you know where to cut it off then? 10:51:05 AnMaster: include EOF in the markov chain, obviously 10:51:28 ais523, no I mean would you be able to cut off after any byte? 10:51:35 I don't know the format for gzip well 10:51:39 yes, you markov-chain the bytes 10:51:56 ais523, would that really work? 10:52:02 at the highest order you can get away with without verbatimising 10:52:08 and almost certainly not, but it would be great to try 10:52:13 heh 10:53:22 going for a while, I need to get food 10:53:25 bye for a bit 10:53:30 Misread "I need to get fnord". 10:53:37 Thanks to all the fnords here lately. 10:53:46 hah 10:53:53 Haven't tried Shakespeare, no. He's not in the preprocessed Gutenberg books I have for that other project, so it'd need some text-extraction. 10:54:01 oh ok 10:55:13 fizzie, http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hamlet 10:55:15 Not sure where I could get conversational text easily, except the IRC logs. (And the telephone conversations, but I tried that already.) 10:55:16 maybe 10:55:16 ? 10:55:55 fizzie, you could filter it to just be the actual phrases said, removing all "enter Hamlet" "exit hamlet" 10:55:59 and such 10:56:02 Actually wait, Shakespeare is there. 10:56:14 66 books, actually. 10:56:47 http://zem.fi/~fis/ss.txt 10:57:01 I guess I could try that too, although it probably won't be very interesting. 10:57:24 the fnordity should be staggering 10:57:28 oerjan, yes 10:57:34 fizzie, would be nice to try at least 10:59:13 fungot: Okay, try it. 10:59:13 fizzie: ' so in thyself thyself art made away; a mischief worse than civil home-bred strife, fnord or, hubert, hubert throw thine eye on yon young boy: ile tell thee more. 10:59:22 heh 10:59:30 fizzie, how does it handle ' ? 10:59:37 fungot, Hamlet 10:59:37 AnMaster: ped. keepe your hundred pounds to yourself: he shall draw; he shall tap; said i well, bully hector? 10:59:50 fungot, really? 10:59:50 AnMaster: iohn. i will presentlie goe learne their day of marriage, and things, and to confine yourself to fnord house convey our arms, quartered within his fnord th' expense of many a blasting hour, let it no more on height of our care, sir. 10:59:59 Inside words, ' is just part of the token; so "foo's" is one token while "foo" is another. 11:00:09 fizzie, what about 'tis ? 11:00:29 Things that look like "'foo bar baz'" get turned into "opening single quote, foo, bar, baz, closing single quote". 11:00:39 fizzie, You are unusually random aren't you? 11:00:44 err 11:00:48 fungot, You are unusually random aren't you? 11:00:48 AnMaster: brutus. enough, i warrant you 11:00:51 sorry about that fizzie 11:01:02 fungot, bah 11:01:02 AnMaster: louel seemes to stay. you, in the meane time, some show in the posterior of the day 11:01:14 I'm not sure what it does with "'tis" and "th'". Probably interprets "'tis .. th'" as a single-quoted string. 11:01:35 oh well 11:01:39 fungot, . 11:01:43 oh it's ignoring 11:01:51 ^echo optbot 11:01:51 optbot optbot 11:01:51 AnMaster: KILL 11:01:51 fungot: *your kajirc 11:01:51 optbot: laf. and shall i flye? i haue told thee, of a most homely fnord man, aufidius, piercing our fnord then we thought them none, her eie is sicke on't, i would 11:01:51 fungot: Nope. 11:01:52 optbot: ant. now my spirit is thine the better part made mercie, i should 11:01:52 fungot: we could add type inference 11:01:52 optbot: as through an arch so hurried the blown tide as the recomforted through the gates of millaine, and ith' dead of darkenesse the ministers for th' present. get thee to bed. 11:01:52 fungot: that's where I stop agreeing :P 11:01:53 optbot: iago. i'll send him ( for so i thought i had, i neuer spent an houres talke withall. his eye is hollow, and hee must needes goe that the diuell driues 11:01:53 fungot: you were all hardcore anti scheme 11:02:10 i think optbot didn't like that 11:02:11 oerjan: Glyph means symbol, right? (or atleast something similar) 11:02:32 It looks shakespeareanistic, but all in all not terribly funny. 11:02:39 fizzie, yes 11:02:42 indeed 11:03:44 Heh, 514 megabytes of language models already. (Lewis Carroll, Darwin, Europarl, telephone calls, IRC logs, lovecraft, those speeches and now Shakespeare.) 11:03:45 fizzie, well this will be fun when it gets into optbot 11:03:46 AnMaster: so no need to pack more closely 11:04:18 fizzie, I got to say irc is the one that worked best so far 11:04:36 fizzie, what about that idea with wikipedia talk pages? 11:04:45 maybe worth trying 11:05:04 fizzie, would be nice to see how ais reacts when he get back on that too :D 11:05:12 Maybe. Should probably check out whether the pre-supplied Wikipedia data dumps include talk page contents. 11:05:22 ^echo optbot 11:05:22 optbot optbot 11:05:22 AnMaster: read that 11:05:22 fungot: no 11:05:28 fungot,? 11:05:28 AnMaster: then there is schem48... 11:05:30 ^echo optbot 11:05:30 optbot optbot 11:05:30 AnMaster: With practice, dream recall can be "learned". 11:05:30 fungot: cygwin is yer friend 11:05:30 optbot: thinking huh? maybe file it upstream? 11:05:31 fungot: in that case, you've missed the joke entirely 11:05:31 optbot: i've never seen that problem before, which is odd 11:05:31 fungot: Of course predictably it still doesn't work :| 11:05:32 optbot: sometimes watching the politics here, it was used 11:05:32 fungot: !pager %a A C T I O N s h o w s S i m o n R C%a 11:05:32 optbot: fnord/ fnord it was simply suggested that there should be 11:05:33 fungot: thanks :) 11:05:35 ah it is on irc again 11:05:39 Oh, yeah. 11:05:42 Cleaned up the files a bit. 11:05:54 "pages-full.xml.bz2/7z - Current revisions, all pages (includes talk and user pages)" 11:06:05 fizzie, how large is that? 11:06:06 For some reason they don't do database dumps including only talk pages. :p 11:07:10 Trying to figure out. Apparently the dumps aren't exactly those as the wiki page describes. 11:07:30 Ah, there. 11:07:34 "Discussion and user pages." 11:07:37 7.2 gigabytes. 11:07:44 wikipedia? 11:08:03 Yes. Talk pages should contain at least a bit of chatter. 11:09:20 I'd like to fetch the talk pages only, but apparently there's only "articles without talk" and "articles, user pages and talk" dumps. 11:10:40 could take quite a while to download 11:10:46 I wonder if that's worth trying. 11:11:00 fizzie, also you need to restrict yourself to a subset of the talk pages 11:11:04 considering the size 11:12:00 ETA 2 hours, apparently. 11:12:54 Around 1.7 megabytes / sec. Not too shabby, although far from the speeds I used to get back when I still lived on the university student housing place. 11:14:32 Maybe I should look around our department's file system; so far I've just looked at the speech group's "text" directory. 11:15:32 At least the natlang people have a "corpora" directory. 11:16:13 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:19:45 It's that XML MediaWiki export format... I guess I can pipe the file through bunzip2 and some script to output only the interesting things, so I don't need to actually uncompress that 8-gigabyte file. 11:20:20 fizzie, yeah 11:20:49 fizzie, bzcat2 maybe 11:21:03 rather than bunzip2 11:21:13 or you mean pipe from wget? 11:21:42 No, I'll probably need to tweak the script so much that it's better to have a local copy. 11:21:49 But bzcat's pretty much "bunzip2 -c". 11:22:05 Er, I mean, "bzip2 -dc". 11:22:27 k 11:22:58 fizzie, how large would the expanded file be? 11:23:02 I'm sure I'll find some use for a local Wikipedia dump other than just fungot, sooner or later. (Although it'll be pretty dated fast.) 11:23:02 fizzie: i also put an fnord man as the child of a, having b fnord a a fnord maybe b 11:23:57 fizzie, if you update the irc model remember to filter fungot itself first please 11:23:58 Do the bzip2 headers include uncompressed size? The wiki-dump-download-site doesn't say. 11:23:58 AnMaster: i camp at the bar and without the repeated fnord? 11:24:13 fizzie, no clue 11:24:25 anyway if you don't filter itself it would saturate I suspect 11:24:35 a bit more every time it is updated 11:25:17 [IpID || {_Key, IpID} <- Entries] 11:25:26 list comprehensions are fun 11:25:53 Apparently the uncompressed size is not stored in the bzip2 format (unlike gzip), so can't say. I would assume it's at the very least twice that size, probably a lot more. 11:40:13 hm 12:02:42 actually, if you want to test things on the Wikipedia dumps, one well-known trick is to get Simple English not English 12:02:50 because you can still read it, and it's smaller 12:04:45 56 % already fetched out of that enwiki dump, I guess I'll just select a couple of talk pages out of it or something. 12:16:28 -!- LinuS has joined. 12:20:33 hm 12:21:03 Deewiant, You wondered why R11B wouldn't work, well I read the changelog, and to be able to follow funge spec I need to use a function added in R12B-3 12:21:13 init:stop/1 12:21:20 to also return a exit code 12:24:27 Hm. 12:24:42 If you put a multiple of the Chaitin constant in a check. 12:24:47 What will the bank do? :o 12:24:57 not cash it, almost certainly 12:25:10 Chaitin? 12:25:23 Roughly probability of the stopping of a machine 12:25:29 AnMaster: the probability that a random Turing machine halts 12:25:39 and how large is that one? 12:25:40 it's been mathematically proved to be impossible to calculate accurately 12:25:45 heh 12:25:48 * oerjan thought check formatting was fairly rigid 12:25:51 Well, it's between zero and one. 12:25:53 I'm not sure how many decimal places of it are known 12:26:02 Well, it's machine specific 12:26:04 because it is possible to get bounds on it 12:26:06 and yes, it is 12:26:21 it's been mathematically proved to be impossible to calculate accurately <-- transcendental(sp?) number? 12:26:27 Worse! 12:26:31 it depends on how you randomize the Turing machine, but I thought there was some official method 12:26:32 Uncomputable number 12:26:39 AnMaster: trancendental numbers can be calculated sometimes 12:26:49 pi is trancendental, but can be calculated to any number of decimal places 12:27:01 well you said it is known to some decimal places? 12:27:05 whereas for Chaitin's number there's some number of decimal places past which it can't be calculated, even in theory 12:27:13 hm 12:27:19 You can get an estimation, AnMaster 12:27:31 and that is? 12:27:37 It's a sum of 2^p * 0 if it doesn't stop, 1 if it does 12:27:54 -p 12:28:08 It's a probability, so you know it will be between 0 and 1. 12:28:16 basically it takes a while until you get to the first Turing machine you cannot decide, and before that you have got a few dozen bits iirc 12:28:23 If the first program stops, you know it's between 0.5 and 0 12:28:25 And so on 12:28:40 2^p * 0 well that would be (2^p) * 0, which would be 0? 12:28:46 um 12:28:52 oh and yeah shorter Turing machines are weighted more 12:28:57 But if you can't prove anything about the first machine, you will always have an uncertainty of 0.5 12:29:12 *program 12:29:16 hm 12:32:20 Maybe I should give out checks for floor[n*chaitin] 12:32:30 WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW 12:33:33 TAKING A SHOWER 12:34:11 I actually read part of Chaitin's autobiography; it seems he's a big fan of Lisp 12:34:23 so much so that he once implemented a Diophantine equation that interpreted it 12:34:44 Diophantine? 12:34:55 restricted to nonnegative integers for each unknown 12:35:10 each unkown what? 12:35:15 so 3 / x = 2 has no solution as a Diophantine equation 12:35:26 and "unknown" as a noun means one of the variables in an equation that you have to find the value for 12:35:34 as opposed to a parameter, where you're given the answer in advance 12:35:53 so if I say "solve x + 1 = y for y given that x is 3", then y's an unknown and x is a parameter 12:36:03 hm... 2x=3 ..... x = 3/2 but yeah requires more than integers 12:36:21 in general, solving Diophantine equations is super-TC 12:36:35 ais523, the lisp one too? 12:36:40 because the equation itself can be TC, and a solution therefore solves the halting problem 12:37:05 the Lisp one can easily be tweaked to implement a Turing machine by feeding it a Turing machine simulator written in Lisp 12:37:06 ais523, ok. How do you make an equation TC though? 12:37:38 AnMaster: if you give it certain input as parameters, the values the unknowns can take are a function of them which requires TC-ness to calculate 12:37:52 hm 12:40:01 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_tenth_problem 12:43:30 from the history section it's pretty clear that it is not a simple result 12:43:53 indeed 12:52:35 "Likewise, despite much interest, the problem for equations over the rationals remains open." 12:52:52 so no one knows if equations with fractions are TC 12:54:19 ais523, do you know if pthreads threads share their working directory? 12:59:45 well I'll add this then; 12:59:47 It is implementation-defined if each thread got it's own working directory or if 12:59:47 the working directory is global for the whole implementation. 12:59:50 for DIRF 13:00:20 At least the POSIX specs speaks only of the "current working directory of the process". 13:00:26 Which would imply it's not thread-specific. 13:00:32 fizzie, well in erlang it global per node 13:00:48 so if you run the stuff distributed *some* threads may end up sharing directory 13:01:40 assuming the nodes aren't set to use a common file server process on a single node 13:04:02 -!- Corun has joined. 13:04:48 afk 13:07:27 ^show 13:07:27 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp 13:07:34 ^rev2 test 13:07:34 tset 13:07:46 ^reverb test 13:07:46 tteesstt 13:08:00 ^hi test 13:08:08 ^show hi 13:08:16 huh 13:08:26 fungot: hm? 13:08:26 oerjan: i've never been 13:08:27 AnMaster: no I don't know about pthreads and directories, unfortunately 13:08:31 ^show 13:08:31 echo reverb rev bf rot13 hi rev2 fib wc ul ctcp 13:08:41 ^hi 13:08:50 maybe it's not bf 13:08:57 my guess is hi's defined to the 0-length string 13:09:09 bf is only in that list because I defined a command called bf to try to confuse it 13:09:14 ^show bf 13:09:22 er 13:09:26 ^show echo 13:09:26 >,[.>,]<[<]+32[.>] 13:09:35 ^show ws 13:09:37 ^show wc 13:09:37 [] 13:10:58 ^def pal bf >,[.>,]<[.<] 13:10:58 Defined. 13:11:06 ^pal panama 13:11:07 panamaamanap 13:11:57 ^def pal bf >,[.>,]<<[.<] 13:11:57 Defined. 13:12:00 ^pal panama 13:12:00 panamamanap 13:13:27 ^pal amanaplanac 13:13:27 amanaplanacanalpanama 13:13:59 ^pal ablewasier 13:13:59 ablewasiereisawelba 13:14:05 Actually "hi" is an empty program. 13:14:10 That's why it won't show up. 13:14:19 ^pal amanaplanac 13:14:19 amanaplanacanalpanama 13:14:26 Oh, you said that already. 13:14:43 I don't think it was actually empty, just not brainfuck so the bytecode compiler mostly ignored it. 13:14:49 ah, ok 13:15:25 That 'wc' program doesn't look like it should work. 13:15:30 ^def hi bf ,[.,]!Hello, World! 13:15:31 Defined. 13:15:33 ^hi 13:15:34 ^show wc 13:15:34 [] 13:15:39 hmph 13:15:45 ^hi test 13:15:45 test 13:15:46 ^show hi 13:15:46 ,[.,] 13:15:53 It doesn't accept preprepared input, I think. 13:15:57 my guess is you can't specify input in defined commands 13:16:05 seems so 13:16:05 hmm... maybe you should add Easy as a lang to fungot 13:16:06 ais523: that result is reversed at the end where krishnamurthi got into a brief fnord with a normal distribtion, 95% are within 2 feet of it. 13:16:12 despite being a joke originally, it's actually quite interesting 13:16:18 basically it's BF 13:16:23 but the input and program are in the same stream 13:16:33 It used to work, though. Defining 'hi' like that would've caused "^hi test" to output "Hello, World!!test". 13:16:46 so for instance you can do ,H.,e.,l.,l.,o., .,W.,o.,r.,l.,d. 13:16:57 or ,H[.,]ello, World! 13:17:05 with two !'s? 13:17:36 oh if the final input was added with ! ... 13:17:50 oerjan: Yes, I think. Because it would've executed "^hi test" by turning it into the original bf command with "!test" after it. 13:20:16 * ais523 wonders why eir inbox is now called INBOX rather than Inbox since eir email problems 13:21:15 the email client is hard of hearing so they had to shout the name to make sure it'll pick it up 13:21:24 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:28:12 wow, my latest FRC entry hit a bug in Google 13:29:11 * oerjan wonders if there was ever an FRC spam round, and if so if all messages got through 13:30:36 well, it's probably the first FRC round with a word that's 200 kilobytes long 13:30:40 made entirely out of Z in this case 13:30:56 because the full chemical name for titin was mentioned a couple of entries earlier 13:31:03 and each entry has to set a new record for word length... 13:34:38 ouch 13:34:57 so this may be the first round that is won due to technical issues? :D 13:35:05 who knows? 13:35:17 (assuming it hasn't happened already) 13:35:26 Google relayed the message fine 13:35:31 its web-based view also displays it fine 13:35:35 but has a "read more" link 13:35:40 after the end of the message 13:35:52 clicking on it gets you a "download full message" link, also after the end of the message 13:35:56 and in both cases, the full message is shown 13:36:06 it seems Google can handle 200KB messages, but not 200KB words 13:54:35 -!- oklocod has joined. 13:59:01 ais523, odd, you only use e* for yourself instead of his in /me when it is about mail and nomic it seems 13:59:20 why is that odd 13:59:26 what's wrong with gender-neutral pronouns 13:59:28 hi ehird 13:59:34 ehird, nothing 14:00:14 ais523, what does that "FRC" you referred to mean? Googling for "define:FRC" lists lots of various things 14:00:16 a diophantine equation that runs lisp :D 14:00:18 awesome 14:00:20 Agora uses "e" everywhere, when we're thinking about nomic we tend to slip into it 14:00:28 AnMaster: Fantasy Rules Committee 14:00:39 which was not one of the things google listed 14:01:44 ais523, also 200 kb of Z really a valid word? 14:01:53 they've allowed invalid words before 14:01:58 just they have to make sense in context 14:02:08 and this did? 14:02:10 "Zzzz" is a common representation for sleep in English 14:02:15 with variable numbers of Zs 14:02:15 heh 14:02:22 so I used 200,000 of them for Sleeping Beauty 14:02:41 ais523, would it be invalid for someone else to use 300,000 such then? 14:03:03 yes, but only because my rule made it invalid 14:03:08 ah 14:03:42 ais523, what is the full name of titin? 14:03:54 AnMaster: about 180,000 characters long 14:04:21 the link at wikipedia to a page with the full name wasn't valid 14:04:34 (dns error) 14:04:49 Methionylthreonylthreonyl...isoleucine is how it's abbreviated on the wiki page about the longest word in English 14:05:16 They should abbreviate it as M189817E 14:05:30 In the I18N and L10N style. 14:06:44 heh 14:16:20 gawd, I hate those abbreviations 14:17:22 A11N FTL! 14:19:36 assassination? 14:19:44 * AnMaster wonders too 14:19:54 abbreviation maybe? haven't checked length 14:19:57 argumentation? approximation? assemblywomen? 14:20:03 too short I gues 14:20:05 guess* 14:20:12 yes, that'd be an a10n 14:20:18 oerjan: Antiquitarian faster-than-light? 14:20:35 l10n... liquefaction? 14:20:41 localization 14:20:53 ehird, you didn't get the point of the joke... 14:21:07 and it wasn't even my joke so hah 14:21:09 i missed the part where it was funny. 14:21:21 egrep '^l.{10}n$' /usr/share/dict/words is a wonderful way of finding new meanings for it. 14:21:23 (probably due to its nonexistance) 14:21:46 fizzie: except here, where /usr/share/dict/words is swedish :-P 14:21:59 it is English here hm 14:22:05 here it's configurable 14:22:09 so I set it to UK English 14:22:20 wouldn't it be Finnish over there Deewiant? 14:22:59 AnMaster: that's what I would have expected, that or English, but no, it's Swedish. 14:23:13 Here it's a symlink to /etc/dictionaries-common/words, which is a symlink to /usr/share/dict/web2. 14:23:14 ISO-8859 no less 14:23:36 Well yeah, it's /usr/share/dict/words -> /etc/dictionaries-common/words -> /usr/share/dict/swedish 14:24:31 fizzie, here it is just a file 14:24:32 funny, american-english, british-english, and swedish, but no finnish 14:24:35 with lots of English words 14:24:43 darn i counted wrong :D 14:25:01 hm 14:25:08 s/A11N/A10N/ 14:25:26 ais523, for that FRC, are you using /usr/share/dict/words normally? 14:25:34 * AnMaster wonders if there is any way to sort by length 14:25:41 gnu sort probably have it 14:25:48 I have /usr/share/dict/finnish from the wfinnish package, but it's a bit useless. 14:26:17 hmmm nop 14:26:21 fizzie, oh? 14:26:51 There are so many suffixes that it doesn't make much sense to try listing them all in a static word list. 14:27:04 i missed the part where it was funny. 14:27:21 what 14:27:34 you and AnMaster are like a comical duo... 14:27:46 i'm the funny one and he's the annoying one? 14:27:49 :-P 14:28:33 no you're both grumpy 14:28:53 heh 14:29:12 oerjan, anyway it was Deewiant that made the joke 14:30:07 it was more an explanation of my annoyance towards the abbreviations than an attempt at mirth 14:30:26 hm gnu sort got an option called --random-sort, doesn't seem to be bogosort though 14:30:30 -R, --random-sort sort by random hash of keys 14:30:30 --random-source=FILE get random bytes from FILE (default /dev/urandom) 14:30:41 I don't get what -R does at all 14:30:46 hmm... maybe it sorts same lines together 14:30:47 it shuffles the file 14:30:52 but not in any particular order apart from that? 14:31:06 ais523, think you are right 14:31:07 it just shuffles the file. 14:31:11 in a random order 14:31:32 identical lines are put together though 14:31:52 so it's taking hashes using a random but consistent algorithm, and sorting those 14:32:24 seems so yes 14:32:37 "hash of keys" so you don't necessarily use the whole line i guess 14:33:25 -u, -r, -n, -i and -k are the only gnu sort options I use with any sort of regularity. 14:33:40 oerjan, and yes, -k sets that iis 14:33:41 iirc* 14:33:49 -k, --key=POS1[,POS2] start a key at POS1, end it at POS2 (origin 1) 14:34:03 a pitty you can't sort on field 3, then field 2 or such 14:34:19 you cannot? 14:34:21 yeah, hence I usually write short haskell programs to do sorting :-P 14:34:30 I suppose learning awk would be more optimal 14:34:39 oerjan, I tried it before 14:34:48 Deewiant, usually I use awk yes 14:35:08 well I don't know perl myself, but I heard awk and perl were pretty similar 14:35:16 Perl is a lot more featureful 14:35:20 and awk compiles trivially to it 14:35:20 well yes 14:35:31 ais523, awk is easier to write though IMO 14:35:40 Perl is easy to write once you get the swing of it 14:35:42 The hashing is actually MD5 in GNU sort, and the randomness comes from the fact that it starts by hashing some random data. 14:36:00 fizzie, err huh? 14:36:07 you mean like a seed? 14:36:27 Well, there's that random-source option. 14:36:36 defaults to /dev/urandom 14:36:38 It reads a bit from there and MD5-processes it first. 14:36:44 Then the key field. 14:36:51 then? 14:37:11 Then it takes the MD5 hashes and sorts according to those. 14:37:15 also does it use the same random value for all the lines? 14:37:18 so, given, say, data with 8 whitespace-separated columns per line, how would you sort it first according to the fifth and then the second column 14:38:01 If I'm reading it right, no. But it uses the same random value for both keys in all pairwise comparisons, so completely identical keys will be kept together. 14:39:00 Deewiant, were you asking me? 14:39:15 anybody who cares to answer 14:39:35 you can do it by running sort twice 14:39:36 in awk: I would probably sort it using arrays in awk 14:39:46 sort by the second, then sort the result by the fifth 14:39:49 because GNU sort is stable 14:39:50 ais523, sort(1) may not be stable iirc. 14:40:00 ah, I thought it was a GNU sort question, which is IIRC 14:40:03 ais523, only if given --stable 14:40:15 otherwise why would they have that option? 14:40:16 ah, ok 14:40:17 -s, --stable stabilize sort by disabling last-resort comparison 14:40:32 what if the columns don't start at the same position, doesn't sort(1) require the exact column? 14:40:35 ah, last-resort comparison isn't always used, IIRC 14:40:36 er 14:40:41 and it would be stable if it wasn't 14:40:45 Deewiant, field delimiters usually 14:40:47 when it is you have the option to turn it off 14:40:53 so, you might get "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8" but also "1234 2 3 4 5 6 7 8" 14:41:09 Deewiant, then if the field delimiter is space that should work 14:41:15 okay, what if you're given "1|2,3,4|5 6 7 8" :-P 14:41:31 Deewiant, then you give the option to set | or whatever you want as field delimiter 14:41:48 which for gnu sort seems to be -t 14:41:49 AnMaster: the field delimiter there is | twice, , twice, and space thrice. 14:42:06 Deewiant, then you pipe it through sed first 14:42:23 AnMaster: and what if | or , can appear in quoted strings 14:42:33 then maybe sort is the wrong utility to be using? 14:42:34 use some other char that won't 14:42:42 AnMaster: and what if I can't affect the output data 14:42:42 sed them all to @ maybe 14:42:50 Deewiant, sed them back!? 14:42:54 AnMaster: maybe @ can appear as well 14:42:56 and as ais523 said 14:43:02 exactly, maybe sort is the wrong tool 14:43:04 what's the right one 14:43:05 Deewiant, the reason for "maybe" 14:43:18 you can select your own one there 14:43:22 that doesn't collide 14:43:32 and of course there are cases when sort is the wrong tool 14:43:44 no tool is optimal for every task 14:43:52 Deewiant: if you're using that sort of format, it's likely some sort of CSV variant 14:43:52 nor any programming language 14:43:54 AnMaster: that isn't doable with sed, at least not easily. 14:44:03 in which case OpenOffice would manage it just fine, except it isn't a command-line tool 14:44:14 openoffice is a bit too heavyweight :-P 14:45:07 Deewiant, why not? say you selected ! as separator, you can replace it with something else of course.... Then you do s/!/|/;s/!/,/;s/!/,/ 14:45:08 and so on 14:45:17 as long as you don't use g only the first one will be replaced 14:45:31 AnMaster: say I'm given "1|2,3,4|5 6 7 8" where each number can contain quoted strings containing any of " |,". 14:45:51 AnMaster: how do you sed the separators to something uniform so that you can turn it back later, without affecting the fields? 14:45:52 Deewiant, well then you need a full scale parser 14:45:58 exactly. 14:46:07 which is possible in sed since it is TC, but I wouldn't recommend it 14:46:10 or not really, that can be handled in regex. 14:46:12 Deewiant, and as I said above 14:46:21 you can select your own one there 14:46:21 that doesn't collide 14:46:21 and of course there are cases when sort is the wrong tool 14:46:21 no tool is optimal for every task 14:46:21 nor any programming language 14:46:26 not sure if you saw it 14:46:38 Deewiant: what if it contains email addresses, which aren't escaped, but it ignores separators inside comments in the email addresses due to knowing how to parse them? 14:47:13 That would be a really sensible format, ye. 14:47:17 AnMaster: as I said above, what if the output format is not under my control 14:47:22 s/.$/s./ 14:47:23 what if it contains a hypothetical imaginary ASCII char with the value of sqrt(-1)? 14:47:24 ;P 14:47:28 next question? 14:47:33 AnMaster: and my whole point was to ask what method/tool people would use 14:48:26 If someone gave me a file like that right now, I'd probably use a bit of Python, since it's got the 'csv' module (which does quoted strings just fine) in the standard distribution. I'm sure there's a CPAN Perl module, but maybe not installed by default. 14:48:31 Deewiant, also sometimes you can sed back as I suggested above to get the right format 14:48:35 and sometimes you want another tool 14:48:38 Of course that wouldn't help with the unescaped email addresses. 14:48:48 Deewiant, like yacc + a C program 14:48:48 :P 14:48:53 or something 14:53:36 Deewiant, anyway not sure if you saw it above, but by reading erlang news file I found that I need at least R12B-3 for efunge 14:53:54 and there may be some bugs that affect in that version 14:54:00 so R12B-4 recommended 14:54:42 yes, I do notice when I am pinged 14:54:48 ok 14:55:17 so do I, but I'm pinged so often, it seems, that I'm beginning to grow to ignore them 14:55:23 Ping? Pong! 14:55:29 ais523: 14:55:31 As mIRC used to say. 14:55:43 it doesn't any more? 14:55:49 I guess it does. 14:55:53 I don't use it any more. :p 14:55:57 :-P 14:56:28 Although as a reference, I've got the comment "ping? pong!" there in the fungot sources where it answers a PING message. 14:56:28 fizzie: perhaps the processor fried? 14:56:43 fungot: Huh? You seem to be working just fine. 14:56:43 fizzie: i'd say another way to set some value to some specific variables and then using a foreign-lambda ( without) declaration instead. 14:56:56 fungot: can i have a burger with that? 14:56:56 oerjan: in mornfall's future, that are just ' go to hell 14:56:57 also pang not pong :/ 14:56:58 1> net_adm:ping(nosuch@node). 14:56:58 pang 14:57:12 oh look, AnMaster made a joke by interpreting something as erlang 14:57:16 gee willikers 14:57:56 päng 14:57:59 heh 14:58:02 pöng 14:58:09 ,ø˜© 14:58:14 ̦Ø̃‸ 14:58:16 Deewiant, does that mean anything? 14:58:19 ehird: er, what? 14:58:22 anyway 14:58:29 oerjan: opt-pong and opt-alt-pon 14:58:30 g 14:58:30 AnMaster: not that I know of 14:58:37 oerjan, I'm not sure is päng ~ peng? 14:58:41 as in coins 14:58:46 maybe different spelling just? 14:59:04 oh so it's e in swedish too? 14:59:04 ʼþ ʼß œ¨ʼþ´ ¯ ©øøð ´˜¸®¥,þʼø˜ ˛´¸ˍ¯˜ʼ߲≤ ʼƒ ¥ø¨ ˝ß¨þ ˙¯˜þ þø ¸ø˜ƒ¨ß´ ,ǿ,-´≥ 14:59:07 well not "coins", but rather the base of the word 14:59:20 pengar would be money 14:59:28 in plural 14:59:41 Pengar har jag inga, men en sak til tröst 14:59:57 for some reason "en peng" sounds strange... 15:00:10 oerjan, till in Swedish 15:00:11 it's "en penge" in norwegian 15:00:22 oerjan, "ett mynt/en sedel" 15:00:25 depending on what type 15:00:29 AnMaster: closer than expected then 15:00:31  ̑ø≤ ¸¯˜ ¯˜¥ø˜´ ®´¯ð þˍʼß¿ ʼæ˛ ©¨´ßßʼ˜© ˜øþ≥ 15:00:44 ehird: stop pasting mojibake into the channel 15:00:53 'snot mojibake 15:00:55 mojibake? 15:00:59 doesn't look like mojibake 15:00:59 it's hold-down-opt-encoding. 15:01:07 you hold down opt/alt in os x and type. 15:01:09 oerjan, also it sounded like part of a poem? Since the grammar seemed strange 15:01:10 Deewiant: Japanese written in UTF-8, but read as Latin-1 15:01:19 ̛þæß œ¨ʼþ´ ´ƒƒ´¸þʼˇ´ ƒø® ¸ø˜ƒ¨ßʼ˜© ,ǿ,-´≥ 15:01:21 yes, I know, and I said it doesn't look like it :-P 15:01:23 heh, some words are readable 15:01:24 AnMaster: Evert Taube's Flickan i Havanna 15:01:25 for -> ƒø® 15:01:28 and you're right, it doesn't look all that much like mojibake, it's hitting the wrong extended characters 15:01:45 oerjan, Well he *was* Swedish, so that explains a bit I guess ;P 15:02:10 my dad is a big fan 15:02:11 ais523, Just enable UTF-8 ;P 15:02:19 oerjan, can't stand Taube really 15:02:25 AnMaster: I have done 15:02:29 the music isn't good at all IMO, and the texts are worse 15:02:30 that's why I was confused 15:02:34 ah 15:02:37 I was wondering if it was reverse mojibake or something 15:02:51 ais523, åäö ? does those look correct 15:03:06 I'm not sure what they're meant to look like, but I assume so 15:03:07 ... 15:03:09 it wasn't mojibake. 15:03:10 anyway my client is set to auto detect 15:03:14 a with a weird accent, a umlaut, o umlaut 15:03:17 ais523, aao with ring, 2 dots, 2 dots 15:03:55 ais523, and as wikipedia will tell you, at least in Swedish they are separate chars, not just variants of a and o 15:04:11 think it is same in Norwegian except they use ø 15:04:28 Which is altgr-ö here 15:04:48 oerjan, right? 15:05:43 yes yes 15:05:57 AnMaster: yes, also the order is different 15:06:00 æøå 15:06:05 oh ok 15:06:36 anyway, as for that bug in Google I was talking about: http://groups.google.com/group/frc-play/topics 15:06:38 AnMaster: i think peng[ae]r <- penning[ae]r 15:07:04 penningar? 15:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | :p. 15:07:10 hm 15:07:15 The Finnish alphabet has the same "åäö" as the Swedish one, although å (the "Swedish O") is not used in any Finnish words, just names and stuff like that. 15:07:38 oerjan, sounds like a weird form though, not something I would write/use. Probably oldish/poemish or something 15:07:58 AnMaster: it's an old coin unit 15:08:01 fizzie, Swedish O? 15:08:07 fizzie, we got o too 15:08:22 oerjan, like riksdaler? 15:09:07 1 riksdaler = 192 penningar 15:09:08 ais523: the download link works for me 15:09:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_riksdaler 15:09:31 oerjan, blergh, Good thing we use a more logical system since ages 15:09:52 ehird: yes, the point is it shouldn't be there in the first place 15:10:00 why not? 15:10:03 Yes, because base-10 is more logical than any other base. (What?) 15:10:07 the "read more" link shouldn't be anyway 15:10:12 it puts ... at the end of the message 15:10:25 Yes, but the å letter is called "the swedish O" to distinguish it from the "o" letter. I'm not sure how much sense that makes. 15:10:35 Deewiant, well yes it is, for a simple reason... Our system is base 10 elsewhere 15:10:52 ais523: final newline, maybe 15:11:02 fizzie, not any sense for me 15:11:03 AnMaster: what system? Times are base-60 or base-24. Dates vary. 15:11:19 Deewiant, well the Babylonians used base 60 for "counting" iirc. 15:11:29 ehird: no, because the second message in that thread is longer 15:11:32 but we have 0-9 before we get a digit in the next position 15:11:32 and also has the read more link 15:11:41 ah, ok 15:11:58 Deewiant, thus I'd say we use base 10 (exception: programmers) 15:12:18 Deewiant, we write 15 minutes, not F minutes 15:12:34 AnMaster: well yeah, we write everything in base 10. That doesn't mean it's any more /logical/ to use base 10 for other things, especially retroactively. 15:12:34 thus I'd say minutes are base-10 but modulo 60 15:13:18 Deewiant, why isn't it a good idea to change to a more logic system? 15:13:29 AnMaster: time is base-60, but each digit is written in base 10 15:13:34 so it's decimal-coded-segasdecimal 15:13:40 AnMaster: Why is it logical? 15:13:49 What is so much more logical about 10 than about 60 15:13:59 It might be the more obvious choice for humans, sure 15:14:04 But it is no more or less logical 15:14:15 Deewiant, also why did you say retroactive? 15:14:38 AnMaster: What do you mean, why? 15:14:45 "especially retroactively" 15:14:46 you said 15:14:49 Yes, I did. 15:14:55 But did we change money retroactively? 15:14:59 Don't think so. 15:15:06 We replaced the current system with a new one 15:15:20 but we didn't rewrite history to never had used the replaced system 15:15:37 How is this retroactively? 15:16:18 Hmm, I think I misunderstood myself 15:16:34 But the point stands 15:16:40 Doing it retroactively is even worse :-P 15:16:41 Deewiant, as for why base 10, I agree it isn't any more inherently logical than anything else. But for beings with 10 fingers, there is a certain logic yes 15:16:54 AnMaster: "logic" is just the wrong word IMO. 15:16:56 Deewiant, got an example of it being done retroactively? 15:17:02 AnMaster: Can't think of any. 15:17:05 ok 15:17:24 then that is purely hypothetical, at least until ais523 implements Feather 15:17:32 heh 15:18:49 most things in humans come in two, and the only reasonable way to count with one's fingers is to use binary 15:18:52 there is no logic 15:20:41 oklocod: i don't think whoever thought of base-10 could have counted in binary on their fingers. 15:20:45 or at least, e could have 15:20:45 oklocod, sure, two lungs, two ... But... one heart? one brain? one stomach? One nose? One mouth? 15:20:50 but e wouldn't have intuitively thought of it... 15:20:59 * AnMaster agrees with ehird there 15:21:01 AnMaster: two brains. 15:21:10 Deewiant, blergh yeah in English 15:21:16 two brain-halves in Swedish 15:21:16 oklocod has 4.3 brains 15:21:17 so. 15:21:22 AnMaster: what is njure 15:21:22 :P 15:21:23 then it depends on the language of choice too 15:21:27 well yeah, they're brain-halves in english as well 15:21:31 but I'd say they're two brains 15:21:44 in the same way that we have two lungs and not two lung-halves 15:21:46 ehird, kind of related to the liver. Humans have two of them 15:21:54 kidneys 15:21:57 ah yes 15:21:58 that's it 15:22:27 Deewiant, the lungs are more separate though. 15:22:40 how so? They're less separate in that they're at least pretty much identical 15:22:44 AnMaster: heart does not exist for this purpose. 15:22:57 because you cannot see it 15:22:57 oklocod, ? 15:23:05 well then doesn't the other ones either 15:23:29 if you're choosing your base based on the number of things in your body, you're probably not smart enough to see what's inside it. 15:23:41 so lets see, one nose, one mouth, one torso, two arms, two legs, *ten fingers*, *ten toes* 15:23:58 yes yes 15:24:19 now change the topic, base 10 rage is building up inside me 15:24:21 oklocod, which is easier to count before you invented the mirror? your ears or your fingers? 15:24:37 some cultures use base 5, IIRC 15:24:50 ais523, yes makes sense for counting on one hand or so 15:24:52 yes sure sure base 5 and also 20 15:25:04 didn't the babylonians use base 60? 15:25:09 and perhaps a cool 60 slipped in at some point 15:25:11 or maybe sumerians 15:25:36 but they all sucked ass, binary an base -2i are the way to go 15:25:56 60 is kinda nice 15:26:16 No I suggest one of these bases: e, pi, 42 15:26:16 oklocod: -2i? Can you express all complex integers in that? 15:26:18 Base -2i ... 15:26:30 base -2 works for all decimal integers, with the digits 0 and 1 15:26:38 the first two allows you to get a precise value for certain transcendental numbers 15:26:52 work in base Chaitin 15:27:03 Isn't 'i' discrete? 15:27:06 Base 2i is the fun one 15:27:11 hmm 15:27:13 perhaps yeah 15:27:18 all complex integers using only four digits and no sign 15:27:27 yap yap 15:27:42 Since 'i' is discrete, base i can't represent every number. 15:27:45 sounds like a bad idea to me 15:27:46 Deewiant: what digits do you need? I think either 0123 or 0 1 i 1+i would work 15:27:50 not sure, though 15:27:52 0123 is fine 15:27:56 ah, found the article 15:27:58 GregorR: complex integer is what I was talking about 15:27:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quater-imaginary_base 15:28:03 GregorR, um, what about you cancel the base out? 15:28:22 the i I mean 15:28:26 GregorR: duh, you can never represent every number 15:28:49 Huh, that's interestink. 15:28:58 i resent your present representation 15:31:27 I would suggest not only changing the base, but more too 15:31:56 lets use base e and make use of a logarithmic scale 15:32:03 bbiab 15:34:21 * oerjan has been fond of hyperbolic tangent scale since he discovered you could add relativistic velocities with it 15:35:42 anyway, I got two emails about building services at the moment, and I'm not sure whether to be pleased or worried 15:35:47 one saying that my email was working again 15:35:56 and the other saying that they'd fixed the Door properly this time... 15:37:56 GregorR: duh, you can never represent every number 15:37:58 makes me unhappy 15:37:59 :( 15:38:06 ais523: well the first one was apparently not entirely wrong, i guess? 15:38:14 well, yes 15:38:23 but every door message seems to have caused it to have gotten worse 15:38:30 although the time it worked for me but nobody else was amusing 15:38:42 (although annoying due to all the time I had to spend opening it for other people) 15:38:48 as for the second, i eagerly await when you will start climbing in the windows... 15:39:00 *through 15:39:11 ehird: why? 15:39:21 oklocod: i like representing numbers. 15:39:26 :) 15:39:29 i vant perfect computeral arithmetic! 15:39:33 :-( 15:39:51 numbers demand representation! 15:39:53 computerolous arithmetology 15:39:54 -!- ais523_|direct has joined. 15:39:55 hi ais523_|direct 15:40:04 -!- ais523_|direct has left (?). 15:41:11 hm that implies someone once said something containing "washing the windows api" 15:41:55 no 15:41:58 no 15:41:59 many channels 15:42:01 it was markov-chaining 15:42:02 well. 15:42:05 a few channels 15:42:06 at order-3, IIRC 15:42:09 ais523: no, that was pretty literal 15:42:12 just two sentences put together 15:42:15 so "washing the windows" and "the windows api" 15:42:17 and three sentences 15:42:21 fizzie found the sources for us 15:42:33 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:42:34 i thought it based the next word on the 3 previous ones? 15:42:40 on the two previous, I think 15:42:44 bah 15:42:45 thats order-2 btw 15:43:02 fizzie: settle this argument for us? 15:43:09 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:43:20 order-2 = 2 previous ones 15:45:01 hm lower order would give more non-sensical output? 15:45:20 yes 15:45:57 I guess order-0 wouldn't be a markov chain any more? 15:46:14 (just a RWG) 15:46:36 order-0 would be totally random 15:46:37 well 15:46:40 it'd pick more common words more 15:46:47 so it'd just be "here's a random common word" 15:46:55 heh 15:55:18 -!- Ilari has quit ("Won't be back for a while..."). 15:56:25 It uses 4-grams, so it has a context of three words (in most cases) to choose the following word. 15:56:50 hmm... as oerjan said, that would imply that "washing the windows api" was actually in a message somewhere 15:57:04 unless it reduced to 3-grams for that because it couldn't find many 4-grams? 15:57:07 It might've been 4-grams when it outputted that. 15:57:19 I've been using various model orders throughout its history. 15:57:44 s/4-grams/3-grams/? 15:57:50 Yes, 3. 15:58:15 NO! IT CANNOT BE! 15:58:23 fungot, say it isn't so 15:58:23 oerjan: fconv merely _returned_ 0; it didn't _print_ it. 15:58:44 fungot: horrible! 15:58:45 oerjan: blah i was all about and i didn't have experimental selected so it was discussed very shortly, then matthew announced the decision to go in 2 bits 15:59:10 And yes, it will also currently use a 3-gram if it can't find *any* 4-grams that have the current three-word context as their initial 3 words. I'm not sure if that should normally happen, since the three previous words will have been generated with the same model. 15:59:29 No-one seems to be washing the API in my logs; just windows in general. 16:05:55 -!- sebbu has joined. 16:23:02 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 16:46:02 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:47:25 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 17:08:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:30:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:35:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:42:22 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:55:19 -!- LinuS has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:57:18 optbot! 17:57:19 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | how goes "interfunge"?. 17:57:25 E 17:57:26 *Eh 17:57:27 optbot! 17:57:27 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | aaah. 17:57:29 optbot! 17:57:29 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | I'm a programmer, not a lawyer, dangit!. 17:57:36 Better :P 17:58:02 interfunge, what was that? 17:58:21 intercal funge 17:58:33 Befunge written in INTERCAL 17:58:38 ah 17:59:51 -!- olsner has joined. 18:00:49 * oerjan swats a swede ----### 18:03:29 ais523: that was anmaster talking about ICAL actually 18:03:41 ah, ok 18:03:52 = 18:03:53 ? 18:03:56 what? 18:03:56 because AnMaster likes using names thar were already taken, presumably 18:04:14 also, ehird, do you mean IFFI? 18:04:21 ICAL? That is a fingerprint that Mike Riley did 18:04:23 ais523: yes 18:04:39 s/did/created/ 18:22:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 18:29:16 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:33:27 SUP BITCHES 18:35:08 oh no. 18:42:28 hey. 18:42:49 did you know that theres a natural language formalism thats heavily based on types and lambdas? 18:42:51 its.. weird 18:43:17 theres even a version that depends on composition of functions, and on type raising 18:43:18 o.o; 18:43:57 ? 18:44:16 -!- LinuS has joined. 18:44:19 well i do know now, it's fairly irrelevant whether i knew before 18:44:26 because you can never prove i didn't 18:44:30 :) 18:44:30 therefor i win 18:44:34 *therefore 18:44:46 its called categorial grammar. the funky version is combinatory categorial grammar 18:44:49 its weeeeiiiird 18:45:27 like 18:45:54 some verbs have the type S\NP which means that they produce an S when they merge with an NP that's on their left 18:46:03 so if runs is S\NP, and John is NP 18:46:32 then John runs is S, because NP S\NP produces S, as S\NP states 18:47:04 that sounds not so weird 18:47:10 yeah but its for natural language 18:47:15 much how i see it 18:47:27 for more arguments to the verb: bites :: (S\NP)/NP 18:47:37 so bites Oklopol :: S\NP 18:47:45 so augur bites oklopol :: S 18:47:49 * psygnisfive bites oklopol 18:47:52 well i find the notation fairly weird 18:47:58 i say augur but you know what i mean 18:48:24 the notation isnt that bad actually, given that order is relevant here 18:48:36 X\Y means you get an X if you left-merge with a Y 18:48:39 X/Y means right merge 18:48:40 yeah 18:48:49 but i only got it just after calling it weird. 18:48:51 its kind of like an abbreviation of CFG rules 18:49:01 X -> Y X 18:49:07 well 18:49:17 X -> Y Z 18:49:30 but in these cases there is no proper Z 18:49:39 Z is X\Y 18:49:45 but anyway 18:49:48 its weeeeird 18:49:59 all sorts of crazy stuff happens dude 18:50:02 the composition is like 18:50:44 the sequence X\Y Y\Z Z can be analyzed as X\Y (Y\Z Z) 18:51:14 or you can do composition and get X\Z = (X\Y Y\Z); X\Z Z 18:51:24 which lets you handle all sorts of crazy discontinuities 18:51:37 and then the type raising is crazy too 18:53:15 go on 18:53:36 * Asztal `bites` everyone 18:53:43 sorry, had to get the slides to make sure i had the notation correct 18:53:48 forward typeraising is like 18:54:03 X can become T/(T\X) 18:54:08 backwards type raising is like 18:54:14 X can become T\(T/X) 18:54:15 you don't have to hurry, i stared at that for about a minute before realizing it was trivial. 18:54:27 so for a sentence like Marcel ran 18:54:42 normally: Marcel :: NP, ran :: S\NP 18:54:49 (more than a minute, emphasis on not the realizing but the time it took) 18:54:57 so Marcel::NP ran::S\NP => Marcel ran::S 18:55:12 but we can forward typeraise marcel 18:55:21 NP -> S/(S\NP) 18:55:46 so Marcel::S/(S\NP) ran::S\NP => Marcel ran:S 18:56:09 this seems pointlessly trivial but it makes it completely trivial then to handle sentences like 18:56:16 "Marcel proved and I disprove completeness" 18:56:38 interesting 18:56:45 wanna see that? :D 18:56:58 oh, of course 18:57:01 ok so 18:57:31 Marcel:NP proved:(S\NP)/NP and:(X\X)/X I:NP disproved:(S\NP)/NP completeness:NP 18:57:58 step 1: type raise marcel, I to S/(S\NP): 18:58:12 Marcel:S/(S\NP) proved:(S\NP)/NP and:(X\X)/X I:S/(S\NP) disproved:(S\NP)/NP completeness:NP 18:58:22 function compose Marcel with proved, and I with disproved: 18:58:55 haha, congrats on the pun :P 18:59:08 w.. what? 18:59:22 disproved np-completeness 18:59:26 lol 18:59:29 not my example ;) 18:59:31 [Marcel proved]:S/NP and:(X\X)/X [I disproved]:S/NP completeness:NP 19:00:06 build the right part of the conjunction 19:00:25 [Marcel proved]:S/NP [and I disproved]:(S/NP)\(S/NP) completeness:NP 19:00:28 build the left part 19:00:37 [Marcel proved and I disproved]:(S/NP) completeness:NP 19:00:41 btw: i dropped near "ok so" 19:00:45 then 19:00:50 [Marcel proved and I disproved completeness]:S 19:01:47 wait a mo, i'll try to understand all this. 19:01:55 :p 19:03:02 okay i get it to some extent. 19:03:17 its just function composition, and type raising 19:04:04 i don't know what function composition is in this context 19:04:14 so.. Marcel:S/(S\NP) proved:(S\NP)/NP --> [Marcel proved]:S/NP 19:04:23 why can NP become S/(S\NP)? 19:04:23 yep 19:04:30 it's kind of intuitive 19:04:30 type raising tule 19:04:33 rule* 19:04:37 something of type X 19:04:50 oh wait 19:04:52 can become something of type T\(T/X) 19:04:59 S/(S\X) is, of coutse, just X 19:05:09 right 19:05:11 i mean, if you just say it 19:05:19 because it's S with something on its right, that has S on its left 19:05:23 hmm 19:05:28 you get an S when you merge on the right with something that needs an X on the left to make an S 19:05:36 no no not that has S on its left 19:05:42 something that needs an X on its left to MAKE an S 19:05:50 think of it like this: 19:06:01 f x is prefix notation for applying f to x right? 19:06:06 sure 19:06:14 but why cant it be postfix notation for calling method f on x? 19:06:29 well, you know what i mean 19:06:35 who says x is the argument and f is the function? 19:06:43 why cant x be the function and f the argument? 19:06:44 yeah, who says it? 19:06:58 i mean, numbers can be modelled as functions right? 19:07:03 and so can booleans 19:07:14 a lot of things yes 19:07:35 and binary functions over booleans are often modeled in LC as using the BOOLEANS as the functions, right? 19:08:00 and(a,b) = a(b) or something like that 19:08:17 yeah, prolly 19:08:31 or whatever 19:08:42 thats what type raising is doing tho 19:08:45 i'd have booleans be a universal operation like nor, but yeah go on 19:09:01 okay 19:09:02 so 19:09:09 and you can do this completely crazy like 19:09:10 Marcel:NP 19:09:16 yeah 19:09:17 so, marchel is a noun thingie 19:09:23 yah 19:09:25 a noun phrase 19:09:34 when you do Marcel:S\(S/NP) 19:09:38 yes 19:09:47 that's... 19:09:48 err... 19:10:08 type raising, but we did S/(S\NP) since marcel was the subject of the verb :p 19:10:18 rrrright 19:10:24 but isn't S/(S\NP) 19:10:25 like 19:10:49 something that takes an S on the to produce something that takes an S on the to produce an NP 19:10:54 no no 19:10:58 you're mistaking the notation still 19:11:02 yeah, i am :) 19:11:06 X/Y means "produce an X by taking a Y on the right 19:11:13 i'm refusing to believe it's not what i originally thought it is. 19:11:29 so S/(S\NP) says "produce an S by taking an S\NP on the right" 19:11:46 oh, hey 19:11:48 i think i get it 19:11:51 :P 19:11:56 although i think these are the same concept 19:12:01 which what 19:12:03 on some level at least 19:12:22 well you might be able to say that instead of this: 19:12:31 Marcel:NP runs:S\NP 19:12:33 you really have 19:12:44 Marcel:S/VP runs:VP 19:12:54 but thats PRECISELY what typeraising is 19:12:57 because consider: 19:13:01 if VP == S\NP 19:13:02 then thats 19:13:11 Marcel:S/(S\NP) runs:S\NP 19:13:20 and S/(S\NP) is typeraised NP! 19:13:28 yes yes it's all clear now 19:13:32 :) 19:13:41 you can derive whole sentences that way dude 19:13:48 left to right 19:13:50 watch: 19:14:00 without types: I believe that she ate dinner 19:14:39 with types (after some type raising): I:S/VP believe:VP/S' that:S'/S she:S/VP ate:VP/NP dinner:NP 19:14:45 well thats a nice function composition chain there 19:14:57 [I believe]:S/S' that:S'/S she:S/VP ate:VP/NP dinner:NP 19:15:04 [I believe that]:S/S she:S/VP ate:VP/NP dinner:NP 19:15:19 [I believe that she]:S/VP ate:VP/NP dinner:NP 19:15:31 yes it's very nice 19:15:32 [I believe that she ate]:S/NP dinner:NP 19:15:38 [I believe that she ate dinner]:S 19:15:55 and thats like, COMPLETELY opposite of how most syntactic models look at sentence structure 19:16:12 type theory for sentences? 19:16:17 yeah its crazy 19:16:28 mm 19:16:32 also, theres a formalism for how to equate these things with their truth conditions 19:16:47 so that these applications also can produce lambdas and such 19:16:48 how is it the opposite of syntactic models? 19:17:11 the normal idea about the structure of that last sentence would be more like 19:17:26 ate + dinner -> [ate dinner] 19:17:35 she + [ate dinner] -> [she ate dinner] 19:17:45 that + [she ate dinner] -> [that she ate dinner] 19:17:55 believe + [that she ate dinner] -> [believe that she ate dinner] 19:17:59 and so forth, you get the point 19:18:15 I + [believe that she ate dinner] -> [I believe that she ate dinner] 19:18:15 and then you also have monadic discourse models :) 19:18:28 nomadic discourse models! 19:18:31 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 19:18:35 the semantics from this stuff is like 19:19:06 give1: ((S\NP)/NP)/NP : \z\y\z[give(x,y,z)] 19:19:49 so each left or right merge applies the lambda 19:20:32 hm? 19:20:36 What esolang is this? 19:20:39 that might be nice in a language 19:20:40 English. 19:20:41 AnMaster: english 19:20:46 ahaha 19:21:03 psygnisfive, also did you see that idea I had for a "HTML Query Language"? 19:21:03 english is pretty esoteric, ill have you know 19:21:12 HTML Query Language? 19:21:14 sounds pretty lame 19:21:19 you can't *not* see it 19:21:36 INSERT ELEMENTS head, body INTO THE ELEMENT head; 19:21:37 the cases were so up you could see them from china. 19:21:40 *upper 19:21:47 lots of statements like that to create a HTML document 19:21:50 oh i see 19:21:52 a DOM language 19:21:58 psygnisfive, instead of that messy stuff 19:21:59 not a query language based on HTML 19:22:02 psygnisfive, also select 19:22:04 but a query language FOR HTML 19:22:37 okt 19 16:10:48 SELECT TEXT OF ELEMENT p WHEN ATTRIBUTE id OF ELEMENT p IS EQUAL TO TEXT VALUE "top" AND ALSO TEXT OF ELEMENT p STARTS WITH TEXT VALUE "ehird"; 19:22:39 E4X probably does half of it :) 19:22:45 psygnisfive, verbose? 19:22:50 very 19:23:00 but less so than doing the same with JS, probably 19:23:07 haha 19:23:11 you'd need libs and shit 19:23:13 okt 19 16:22:13 UPDATE TEXT OF THE FIRST ELEMENT p OF ELEMENT body OF THE ELEMENT html SETTING NEW VALUE TO TEXT "Blergh..."; 19:23:16 html already has a query language: css 19:23:20 ITS QUITE IMPORTANT THAT YOUR LANGUAGE USES ALL CAPITALS, THAT WAY PEOPLE KNOW IT'S A REAL QUERY LANGUAGE AND NOT SOME FAKE CRAP, BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS REAL QUERY LANGUAGES ALWAYS USE UPPERCASE 19:23:25 olsner: CSS is not an html query language 19:23:26 lament, ah yes 19:23:29 olsner: xpath 19:23:31 :p 19:23:41 xpath, yes, this is true! 19:23:43 okt 19 16:24:31 "This language is insensitive to everything, except case" 19:23:45 well, with E4X (a javascript extension) you can create XML literals and query them to your heart's content 19:23:46 lament, ^ 19:24:00 well, not directly, but it has an embedded query language for specifying which elements a style applies to 19:24:09 lament: IT'S QUITE IMPORTANT THAT YOU RECOGNIZE THAT IT IS A JOKE, ALBEIT QUITE A BAD ONE 19:24:23 anmaster 19:24:30 you should also require that it be in lolcatese 19:24:47 psygnisfive, also oerjan suggested that each statement should end with ", OR ELSE!" as a opposite of INTERCAL's "PLEASE" 19:24:51 an* 19:24:56 hmm 19:25:02 i prefer the lolcat version 19:25:09 psygnisfive, I don't 19:25:14 we can fork it then 19:25:33 okt 19 16:02:08 INSERT ELEMENTS head, body INTO ELEMENT html; INSERT ELEMENT title INTO ELEMENT head OF ELEMENT html; INSERT TEXT "this is a horrible idea for markup" INTO ELEMENT title OF ELEMENT head OF ELEMENT html; 19:25:34 in fact 19:25:52 though I later decided that the top element needs "THE" 19:25:57 so THE ELEMENT html 19:26:01 for all of those 19:26:02 I CAN PUT ELEMENTS head, body IN ELEMENT html 19:26:07 ? 19:26:17 psygnisfive, I'm not interested in a lolcat version 19:26:20 :P 19:26:24 like i said we'll fork it 19:26:45 noooooo! 19:26:46 psygnisfive, it haven't been speced, so how could you fork it? 19:27:00 predictive forking 19:27:06 psygnisfive, since specing this may lead to insanity 19:27:10 you will not be allowed to fork it! we'll make it closed source! and patent it! 19:27:19 i type raised the query language 19:27:38 psygnisfive, just I think lolcat doesn't add anything to the joke 19:27:47 psygnisfive, rather it should look more like COBOL 19:27:48 IMO 19:28:08 lolcatting doesn't add much if anything to an all-caps cobolish language 19:28:10 so instead of fork::lang/lang, i typeraised your language to lang\(lang/lang) 19:28:17 olsner, agreed 19:28:26 psygnisfive, you make no sense. 19:28:27 ? 19:28:30 i do! 19:28:37 sense, you makes none! 19:28:40 you just didnt read anything i said about combinatory categorial grammars :P 19:28:43 oklopol understands me 19:28:57 psygnisfive, nor do I intend to, natural languages are boring most of the time 19:29:00 speaking of which, how would you parse "The horse raced past the barn fell."? Backtracking? 19:29:00 * oerjan looks at oklocod sitting catatonic in the corner 19:29:08 yeah but dude this isnt just natural language 19:29:20 this is function composition and currying and type raising! 19:29:22 psygnisfive: requiring knowledge of combinatory categorial grammars is basically equivalent to not making sense :) 19:29:23 in natural languages! 19:29:31 olsner, we're in #esoteric 19:29:34 be serious 19:29:37 olsner, I agree 19:29:53 olsner, we're in #esoteric be serious 19:30:00 i sense a cognitive dissonance 19:30:03 ^_^ 19:30:03 Asztal: i don't know much about grammar theory but intuitively that seems as complex as regexes 19:30:15 well, true... just *being* here is making no sense 19:30:40 i'm reading :P 19:30:44 oerjan, did i tell you about TAGs? 19:30:45 oerjan: cognitive dissonance is definitely on-topic here 19:30:48 oklocod: what about? :O 19:30:56 psygnisfive: maybe 19:31:09 T-something attribute grammars? 19:31:09 tree-rewriting models for natural language syntax 19:31:19 hm no 19:31:19 tree adjoining grammars, actually 19:31:20 but close 19:31:21 ugh 19:31:24 psygnisfive: algorithmmmmms 19:31:29 oh 19:31:41 algorhythms!! 19:31:49 * psygnisfive dances at oklocod 19:31:53 now that I think about it, I was thinking about modelling a card game on a three-adjoining grammar at one point 19:31:53 algorhymes? 19:32:13 algorhinos 19:32:13 i love this book, just algorithm after another 19:32:22 no strings attached 19:32:24 oklocod, what book? 19:32:25 -!- oklocod has changed nick to oklopol. 19:32:26 algeurythmics 19:32:38 sigh 19:32:45 algorithm design, jon kleinberg & eva tardos 19:32:57 sweet dreams are made of theeeese 19:33:11 well, this, but she practically says these 19:33:19 <<<<(X*2)>>||<><=<<1,2,3>>>>. 19:33:24 who am i to disagree 19:33:30 can't get it over the internets afaik, so you won't do much with the name 19:33:39 psygnisfive, does your stuff help you understand that? 19:33:49 your <<>><<>>? 19:33:53 nopol! 19:33:57 psygnisfive, that code yes 19:34:06 no, but i've never looked at nopol. 19:34:20 it's not nopol, yours was 19:34:30 oh haha 19:34:32 <<>><<>>? 19:34:34 mine wasn't nopol 19:34:36 and you cannot look at nopol, i don't publish my languages except in this channel, when they are born :P 19:34:37 diamond eyes 19:34:40 psygnisfive, no. 19:34:46 psygnisfive, that <<<<(X*2)>>||<><=<<1,2,3>>>>. 19:34:53 i know, i wasnt talking to you, anmaster 19:34:54 * oklopol will put noprob on the wiki if the interpreter ever finishes, though 19:35:08 psygnisfive, I bet your weird natural languages models doesn't help you in understanding that :P 19:35:14 psygnisfive: yeah, that's nopol 19:35:18 oklopol: sounds like a halting problem to me 19:35:24 i havent a clue what language that is 19:35:34 so it doesnt. but that doesnt mean CCGs couldnt! 19:35:41 oerjan: i was afraid i might trigger a joke :P 19:35:42 psygnisfive, it's actually not an esolang. 19:35:47 ok? 19:35:55 but it IS a language, it looks like 19:35:55 psygnisfive, it is a functional language, and using some very weird syntax from it 19:36:05 and it is a mainstream one 19:36:10 ML? 19:36:13 nop 19:36:36 hm not haskell 19:36:40 oerjan, indeed not 19:36:45 erlang? 19:36:46 the main difference between natlangs and complangs is that complangs generally have very shallow semantics and very clear structure, so its not hard to talk about them 19:36:47 i mean 19:37:00 oerjan, yep, and using "bit string comprehensions" 19:37:01 the type of something in a programming language is purely a matter of value 19:37:05 but removing all the usual whitespaces 19:37:15 << << (X*2) >> || <> <= << 1,2,3 >> >>. 19:37:20 would be the normal way to write it 19:37:22 much clearer 19:37:28 but in natural language we have lots of shit to do with not just "Value" but also with representation type 19:37:53 oerjan, same concept as list comprehensions 19:37:59 because things can be represented in various ways 19:38:11 i mean, just consider what makes a noun a noun 19:38:12 psygnisfive, ever heard of Feather? 19:38:19 what IS a noun, exactly, ey? 19:38:24 AnMaster: heard of, yes 19:38:33 psygnisfive, well, that isn't shallow I think 19:38:36 a miserable little pile of semantics! 19:38:42 it is retroactively non-shallow 19:38:43 :D 19:38:49 at least if you make it so 19:38:58 psygnisfive: so, how about making a language that has such a complicated and exception-ridden syntax no one will ever be able to write it, it could be based on your wonky syntactic theories 19:38:59 retroactive changes to the own grammar rocks 19:39:10 oklopol++ 19:39:17 oklopol: ive been saying we should for months now :P 19:39:22 have you now :D 19:39:24 but noone wants to work with me on it. 19:39:31 * oklopol does, now 19:39:39 no you dont! dont lie! 19:39:42 * psygnisfive runs away crying 19:40:31 basically, we start with some simple structure, and start building incredibly complicated sublanguages, and add exception on top of exceptions until it's a total mess, after which we start cleaning it up, making it *look* simple, in short and simple programs 19:40:36 but the underlying semantics 19:40:39 are dreadful 19:40:40 and awesome 19:40:51 :P 19:40:55 i dunno, but yeah, i guess i wanna do something like that 19:41:04 we'd also have to have atleast two ways of representing the same thing 19:41:11 each with its own quirks of distribution 19:41:23 BUT, i've read 12 pages today (two exams, and i slept like 3 hours during the day), my quota is more like 80 19:41:26 psygnisfive, try perl 19:41:27 similar to how you can talk about events in english using sentences, or using noun phrases 19:41:27 yes! 19:41:45 perl doesn't have a complicated grammar 19:41:56 " we'd also have to have atleast two ways of representing the same thing each with its own quirks of distribution" 19:42:04 that is perl in a nutshell 19:42:08 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:42:08 :P 19:42:23 well we're gonna make perl^7-2 19:42:25 there is more than two ways to do it. 19:42:41 yeah probably more like five 19:42:48 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:43:21 yes but are they describable with type raising, function composition, and so on? 19:43:29 because thats how our language will be described 19:43:35 ITS GOING TO BE AWESOME 19:44:25 i say we use our language to compile down into simple predicates 19:44:27 speaking of which, how would you parse "The horse raced past the barn fell."? Backtracking? 19:44:31 psygnisfive, did you answer that? 19:44:33 and then run it on top of those predicates 19:44:34 can't see where you did 19:44:41 oh, no, i didnt see it at all 19:44:49 which formalism do you want? 19:44:54 CCG or the one im actually familiar with? 19:45:09 psygnisfive, just answer Asztal's question 19:45:40 asztal, which formalism do you want? 19:46:08 i mean, well let me rephrase that since you're not really asking about formalisms i guess 19:46:22 i couldnt tell you how a PARSER would work on that, for two reasons 19:46:43 1) the formalism im familiar with is notoriously hard to parse, supposedly, and i've never worked on a parser for it 19:47:03 2) CCG formalisms i dont know much about, nevermind CCG parsers 19:47:13 tho i can link you to a paper on parsing with CCGs 19:48:06 * oerjan gets a barn fell to race a horse past 19:48:07 psygnisfive, I prefer LALR 19:48:09 ;P 19:48:28 oerjan: lol no :) 19:48:32 its 19:48:41 [the horse [raced past the barn]] fell 19:48:43 * oerjan swats psygnisfive -- er wait no 19:48:55 * psygnisfive knuffelt oerjan 19:49:00 * oerjan clobbers psygnisfive with a hammer 19:49:33 the horse raced past the barn (the barn fell) 19:49:33 or 19:49:39 no 19:49:44 Anyone want to buy a barn fell, cheap? 19:49:46 thats an invalid parse 19:50:01 theres only one valid parse for that sentence, its just garden pathy 19:50:04 the horse, raced past the barn, fell 19:50:19 ok ok listen guys thats not what it means :p 19:50:20 it means 19:50:27 psygnisfive, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo 19:50:29 the horse that was raced past the barn fell down 19:50:29 what about that one? 19:50:36 anmaster: i can get more buffalo than that, actually 19:50:50 i can get 11 19:50:56 without it being incomprehensible to me 19:51:03 "The horse (that was raced past the barn) fell." 19:51:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_path_sentence 19:51:07 see 19:51:09 I was right 19:51:09 yes. 19:51:14 thats what i said before :P 19:51:22 the horse, raced past the barn, fell 19:51:22 ok ok listen guys thats not what it means :p 19:51:24 well 19:51:27 that is what I said 19:51:36 no, its not 19:51:41 commas are used for specific things in english 19:51:47 they dont denote relative clauses like in your language 19:51:54 they denote parenthetic commentarys 19:52:03 so your version says, in english at least 19:52:07 psygnisfive, why do you think they do in [my language]? 19:52:13 "the horse raced past the barn of its own accord), and then fell" 19:52:14 and what is [my language]? 19:52:42 * oklopol remembers a horce raced past 19:52:44 i presume you're some sort of finnogermanic like half the rest of #esoteric :P 19:52:45 *horse 19:52:46 psygnisfive, not valid, unmatched parentheses 19:52:49 swonsk, probably 19:52:58 (of its own accord) 19:53:06 psygnisfive, "finnogermanic"? 19:53:10 yes! 19:53:13 finnogermanic. 19:53:17 psygnisfive, what is that then? 19:53:25 its a kind of strudel 19:53:31 "strudel"? 19:53:33 means? 19:53:40 its a pastry? 19:53:46 well 19:53:49 sorry sorry 19:53:52 that doesn't explain anything 19:53:54 let me translate that into finnogermanic 19:53:57 strüssel 19:54:09 psygnisfive, My native language does not have "ü" 19:54:24 strøssel 19:54:26 you mean stryyselä 19:54:29 that too 19:54:31 nor does it have "ø" 19:54:35 and nor is it Finnish 19:54:45 stryyselä is finnish 19:54:46 which I think oerjan was 19:54:49 Mm, Apfelstrudel 19:54:51 oerjan's* 19:54:59 oerjan: apfelküchen 19:55:01 or better yet 19:55:03 oklopol: what does it mean? :D 19:55:09 pflaumenküchen 19:55:13 Anyway 19:55:16 well not sure, but it has "yy", and "ä" 19:55:22 so it must mean something 19:55:22 or or or! 19:55:22 psygnisfive, I don't speak any of the languages you tried 19:55:25 if we're in alsace 19:55:26 oklopol: aye 19:55:27 flammekuche 19:55:28 :O 19:55:36 psygnisfive, So why the insult that I'm some sort of food? 19:55:45 because you're delicious, sir 19:55:48 . 19:55:49 * psygnisfive eats anmaster 19:55:59 * AnMaster gives psygnisfive a bad stomach 19:56:07 i just ate a curry, dont worry 19:56:11 ugh 19:56:11 hey that rhymes 19:56:22 and its about curry! 19:56:25 psygnisfive, and I just ate a lot of garlic. 19:56:33 oh man i love garlic 19:56:33 and I hate curry 19:56:36 is it furry curry, in a hurry? 19:56:36 ok awesome garlic recipe: 19:56:42 ouch wrong one 19:56:43 i am a furry! 19:56:45 ...... 19:56:46 anyway 19:56:47 and im usuaully in a hurry! 19:56:51 step 1: 19:57:03 psygnisfive, I'm from Sweden. I don't speak any of the languages you gussed 19:57:05 take a whole head of garlic and remove the papery outer crap 19:57:05 guessed* 19:57:17 and I still don't get what "finnogermanic" means when used about a person 19:57:20 step 2: cut the tips off the cloves 19:57:21 " i presume you're some sort of finnogermanic like half the rest of #esoteric :P" 19:57:32 step 3: coat with olive oil and sprinkle with oregano 19:57:42 step 4: bake for 45 minutes to an hour at 350 to 400 *F 19:57:50 AnMaster: it means you speak a language of the finnogermanic family *ducks* 19:57:57 step 5: remove, let cool till warm, then up turn and squeeze the sides 19:58:03 oerjan, that still doesn't explain anything 19:58:06 Anmaster: swedish is a north germanic language 19:58:17 psygnisfive, yes and? None of your guesses were correct on Swedish 19:58:19 germanic languages use commas differently than in english, usually for relative clauses 19:58:29 we use åäö 19:58:36 hence why i commented that you're finnogermanic 19:58:37 not ü or ø 19:58:41 psygnisfive: danish uses lots of commas, norwegian not that much 19:58:51 probably. 19:58:54 oerjan, Swedish doesn't use much I think, I guess it is relative though 19:58:57 i know in german atleast commas are relative clauses 19:58:59 like 19:59:12 the boy, that i fucked like a bitch, is named dylan 19:59:28 whereas in english thats completely invalid use of commas 19:59:30 psygnisfive, No pedophiles please 19:59:37 dont worry, he was 13 19:59:41 thats ephebophilia 19:59:50 psygnisfive!*@* added to ignore list. 20:00:04 did he really ignore me? lol 20:00:27 hmm, that's probably in the grey area between pedo- and ephebophilia 20:00:31 oerjan: is it furry curry, in a hurry? <<< furry doesn't rhyme here 20:00:44 oklopol: it does in some dialects 20:00:50 plus, phonemically it does 20:00:52 oklopol, depends on which furry I guess 20:01:07 AnMaster seems to have some kind of phobia of any reference to pedophillia at all 20:01:10 actually, according to wikipedia, that's clearly pedophilia rather than ephebophilia "Ephebophilia refers to the sexual preference for adolescents around 15-19 years of age." 20:01:18 ehird: erm wait? 20:01:24 damn you wikipedia! ruining my humor! 20:01:26 >_< 20:01:55 maybe hebephilia rather than pedophilia though 20:01:58 exactly who was going around joking about tusho rape some while ago... 20:02:04 everyone. 20:02:08 i had a 13-yo gf about a year ago 20:02:14 ah ok. 20:02:16 tusho? 20:02:16 wow oklopol.. 20:02:20 :-D 20:02:21 olsner: tusho = ehird 20:02:38 finland is very liberal innit 20:02:39 olsner, tusho == ehird yes 20:02:48 let me rephrase that as "13-yo gf == tusho?" 20:02:49 ha 20:02:50 dunno, i guess it's illegal 20:02:51 AnMaster: you DIDN'T ignore him 20:02:54 haha 20:03:00 no 20:03:03 ehird, yes I did, why? 20:03:09 16 is the age of consent 20:03:11 tusho is distinctly male, despite the humor of saying he's female 20:03:13 AnMaster: no you didn't , you just confirmed one of his statements 20:03:20 ehird, I just tried to respond to olsner's questions 20:03:31 anmaster, dont lie 20:03:36 i had a 13-yo gf about a year ago 20:03:36 ah ok. 20:03:36 tusho? 20:03:36 :-D 20:03:36 olsner, tusho == ehird yes 20:03:40 that is what I saw 20:03:48 everyone knows that when you ignore someone it doesnt get announced to the world! 20:03:49 or does it... 20:03:58 since he seemed confused I thought I'd explain it 20:04:04 well, it does if you quote the message you got from your client 20:04:06 is that a server specific thing? 20:04:11 ah ok 20:04:23 ? 20:04:30 olsner, now that made no sense heh 20:04:36 see anmaster, thats what happens when you block people 20:04:37 that was definitely a normal message string 20:04:40 tsk tsk 20:04:48 you end up misisng have the conversation! 20:04:49 AnMaster: did i get ignored? wouldn't it be kinda weird to ignore someone for a joke, and not for an actual crime :\ 20:05:07 oklopol, I didn't ignore you oklopol 20:05:08 oklopol: he ignored ME for a joke 20:05:09 so? 20:05:21 *half 20:05:23 psygnisfive: yes, that was my point 20:05:28 oklopol, but you were clearly joking. While psygnisfive seemed serious 20:05:29 actually he ignored me for making fun of him using a joke that he set up in the first place 20:05:29 AnMaster very often says "please no pedophillia" or basically the same wording all the time 20:05:31 *shrug* 20:05:32 for some reason 20:05:37 AnMaster: err, i was not joking 20:05:38 AnMaster: how the fsck did he seem serious 20:05:52 also, how on earth is /ignore the correct reaction to the rape of a child...? 20:05:53 while psygnisfive was clearly joking. 20:05:56 ehird: he doesnt realize that you and i havent actually consummated our love 20:05:58 indeed :D 20:06:02 psygnisfive: quite 20:06:11 besides, im a bottom 20:06:14 ehird, it isn't, but I agree with ais523's reasons too 20:06:14 and you're clearly a top 20:06:17 how could i fuck you 20:06:22 TMI! 20:06:26 I refer to his reasons for ignoring psygnisfive 20:06:35 on any further questions 20:06:36 oerjan: your mind is weak 20:06:41 jesus 20:06:44 oerjan 20:06:50 "ais523's reasons"? 20:06:55 knowing that i prefer cock in my ass than my cock in someone elses ass is TMI? 20:07:01 i mean, its implicit in the fact that im gay 20:07:09 you had BOTH possibilities in your mind before! 20:07:12 now theres only one! 20:07:19 i'd say that's a reduction of information, sir 20:07:25 ok then 20:07:27 everyone knows you're a bottom 20:07:34 i know 20:07:35 who doesnt 20:07:37 you don't talk about anything else 20:07:39 I generally assumed gay men could be both tops and bottoms 20:07:47 i talk about natural language syntax 20:07:49 why would it be implicit that you're a bottom? 20:07:51 olsner: lots are switches 20:08:00 but lots are bottoms 20:08:10 olsner: no i meant it was implicit that i was either a top or a bottom (or a switch) 20:08:29 so by confirming one, im not actually providing MORE information than already provided by the knowledge that im gay 20:08:38 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:08:46 therefore "TMI" is clearly illogical, because im actually ruling out, and thus removing, alternatives 20:08:58 that's what information is 20:08:59 so it cant be too MUCH information, since the result is that theres less! 20:08:59 oh, so when you said you were a bottom you weren't saying that you were not a top? 20:09:05 oklopol: very true very true 20:09:10 fizzie, seems like fungot crashed or such 20:09:12 no no olsner 20:09:14 nevermind 20:09:18 this is complicated 20:09:26 response threads are confusing 20:09:28 but, then you're ruling out possibilities, and thus providing information 20:09:38 too much of which would be too much 20:09:42 yes but thats not the information he (you?) meant 20:09:54 AnMaster: Yes, I tried to do "^code 000f-p" to clear the ignoration counter (talking to it in a query) but for some reason it hung up. Might be some sort of a cfunge incompatibility, actually. 20:09:55 me? he? you? I don't know! 20:10:01 namely, it was implied that the information was was too much was the idea of someones cock in my ass 20:10:04 -!- fungot has joined. 20:10:09 fizzie, hm.... 20:10:12 thats what TMI is used for, after all 20:10:21 things that you dont want to know about 20:10:42 ah, yes, oerjan's mention of information distracted me from the original issue 20:10:42 surely noone would care about the YES/NO of such things, in this scenario, but rather the actual content 20:10:47 namely, cock in ass 20:10:48 fizzie, well that makes no sense, g and p are simple and easy 20:10:58 but theres cock in ass in all three situations, top, bottom, or switch! 20:10:59 olsner: there was an original issue? 20:11:02 thus TMI is unwarranted 20:11:10 oerjan: see what you've done? 20:11:12 fizzie, also did cfunge itself crash or just fungot? 20:11:12 AnMaster: 21:01 bonjovn4 shit and stuff. have fun! 20:11:25 well, explicit mention of "cock in ass" is usually considered TMI 20:11:27 AnMaster: Just fungot, of course. It might've depended on some RC/Funge UNDEF thing. 20:11:27 fizzie: it'd take a while 20:11:36 olsner: sure, but like i said 20:11:40 psygnisfive: do you EVER refrain from quibbling whenever possible? 20:11:42 knowing im gay has IMPLICIT cock-in-ass 20:11:42 but just the bottom/top distinction shouldn't be 20:11:43 fizzie, and if you can reproduce it, rebuild with DEBUG build 20:11:50 fizzie, ah ok 20:11:54 oerjan: this is #esoteric. how could i do such a thing 20:12:10 AnMaster: ^code is implemented by appending "0R" to the input, sticking it into some place of fungespace, loading SUBR and executing a C there. 20:12:25 psygnisfive: you ruin half my jokes by explaining them... 20:12:44 :) 20:12:46 fizzie, can't think of any reason that would crash 20:12:56 (ok maybe TMI wasn't _entirely_ a joke) 20:12:58 well, implicit is still implicit... and bottom/top could very well have referred to submissive/dominant personality traits rather than sexual practice 20:12:58 I'll try it with some tracing. 20:13:09 actually no olsner 20:13:14 bottom/top are distinct from sub/dom 20:13:21 there are subby tops and dommy bottoms 20:13:22 fizzie, could you give a trace of what 1) happens 2) you think should happen instead along with 3) a 4 page description of why ;) 20:13:36 the last isn't needed 20:13:43 now granted, they tend to go together quite frequently 20:13:54 but in straight BDSM its quite common to have femdom 20:14:03 which is almost always a case of a bottom dom 20:14:09 psygnisfive: This is quite irrelevant for #esoteric. 20:14:10 unless the woman has a strapon or something 20:14:12 -!- ais523 has left (?). 20:14:15 Move it to #psygnisfives-sexual-ramblings or something. 20:14:15 ehird: i agree! 20:14:18 hm 20:14:30 yes, let's abort this while we still can :) 20:14:31 but you can blame this on anmaster 20:14:35 ehird, you finally agree with me? 20:14:46 AnMaster: No. psygnisfive: I can blame it on your continuous rambling. 20:14:53 interesting to hear about the finer distinctions though 20:14:55 About utterly irrelevant stuff that nobody here cares about. 20:15:01 olsner: There's always /msg. 20:15:08 true, but we wouldn't've gotten here if anmaster hadn't turned us into a tangent 20:15:27 which was specifically /about/ me and sex 20:15:36 the tangent, while tangential, was still #esoteric's tangent 20:15:37 fizzie, wait SUBR may be relative storage offset differently than for RC/Funge. that is all I can think of 20:15:40 i merely used a sentence as an example, but no, he had to go and act like i was talking 20:15:56 anmaster doesnt know about use/reference distinctions i think :( 20:15:58 fizzie, I remember having to mess with that because Deewiant thought it should have been and so on 20:16:00 someone should teach him 20:16:11 ah no 20:16:19 it was the A/O thing 20:16:32 so uh 20:16:38 asztal was it? 20:16:40 * oklopol cares about weird sex stuff 20:16:44 yep. 20:16:45 who asked me about parsing the garden path sentence? 20:16:52 psygnisfive: I still don't understand why AnMaster ignored you for one sentence that was clearly a joke. 20:16:59 ehird: because hes silly. 20:17:03 now lets move on 20:17:05 psygnisfive: Duh. 20:17:12 indeed, and wouldn't do it to me for a *non* joke 20:17:14 <3 20:17:28 oklopol, how were you dating a 13 year old 20:17:29 * oklopol doesn't like being called a liar 20:17:30 arent you like 20:17:31 20? 20:17:32 oklopol: pedophillia is OK if you don't talk about sex, duh. Now. On to more interesting things 20:17:41 oklopol, PMs! 20:17:47 yes, having sex is fine as long as you don't talk about it 20:17:48 fizzie, there? 20:17:49 asztal: you asked about the parsing right? 20:17:50 ehird: that's better than "you're clearly joking" 20:17:55 fizzie, any progress? 20:18:05 psygnisfive: yes 20:18:12 Deewiant: Yes, the real menace is referencing having sex with underaged peopple. 20:18:20 ok. well, i can only comment about minimalism and parsing 20:18:20 AnMaster: It seems to jump to the right place, execute "000f-p" just fine, but then it hits a 0 and reflects. Seems I've tried to use "A" to append, except that after loading SUBR the A instruction is SUBR's "set absolute mode". 20:18:32 namely, movement based syntax seems hard to parse, but there might be some ways 20:18:48 AnMaster: So now I just wonder why it used to work. Are A/O new things? 20:18:51 fizzie, yes it is, the fingerprint was ret-conned by Deewiant and Mike Riley 20:19:03 fizzie, it would have worked a few weeks back 20:19:12 AnMaster: Ah, okay. 20:19:14 actually a bit over 2 months 20:19:26 fizzie, blame Deewiant for breaking existing apps, which is what I warned would happen 20:19:32 I take no responsibility for that 20:19:39 psygnisfive: I'm also curious what happens if the word order is free (e.g. Hungarian, sort of) 20:19:45 AnMaster: OMG FIZZIE WILL HAVE TO CHANGE A PROGRAM A LITTLE BIT! HOW DARE THEY IMPROVE THINGS 20:19:45 Oh well, the fix is trivial. 20:19:50 Deewiant, see!? I predicted that would happen. 20:19:51 ah well yes free word order is tricky 20:19:56 AnMaster: what ehird said. 20:20:04 minimalist approaches take such things to be something called scrambling 20:20:07 Deewiant: betting he has me on ignore 20:20:15 which is a fancy way of saying "shit aint in the order we expect it to be! :(" 20:20:24 :) 20:20:27 Deewiant, versioned fingerprints. And what ehird said is irrelevant 20:20:43 versioned - mm i love the smell of useless bloat in the morning 20:20:44 it smells like failure. 20:20:50 and what i said is very relevant 20:21:14 i mean 20:21:18 ^reload 20:21:18 Reloaded. 20:21:25 free word order is generally taken to be the result of movement 20:21:34 to whatever place we can figure 20:21:34 Deewiant, And never change existing, unless you reserve instruction/other value for a parameter for future use 20:21:39 for whatever reason we can figure 20:21:57 or just make a new fingerprint 20:24:57 -!- ehird_ has joined. 20:24:58 AnMaster: stop bullshitting 20:25:00 -!- ehird__ has joined. 20:25:05 as fizzie said - the change was trivial 20:25:11 and it improves the fingerprint 20:25:16 what you suggest only adds to bloat for no real gain 20:25:17 huh, why so many clients of yours? 20:25:29 because I'm testing. 20:25:33 anyway. 20:25:42 I still hold the same opinion. 20:25:54 It'd be nice if you offered a real justification, but I know better than that. 20:26:40 ehird_, for a simple reason: Not breaking existing code. 20:27:39 Why do you think the C standard committee avoids breaking changes when possible? Why do you think old functions in both the POSIX standard and on Windows remains? 20:27:53 And they make new ones if the old ones can't be upgraded easily 20:27:59 AnMaster: BECAUSE THAT IS C 20:28:10 ehird, same goes for many other languages. 20:28:10 C IS USED FUCKING. EVERYWHERE. MISSION CRITICAL SYSTEMS DEPEND ON IT. 20:28:17 BEFUNGE IS A FUCKING ESOLANG 20:28:18 FIZZIE 20:28:19 HAD TO CHANGE 20:28:21 LIKE 3 THINGS 20:28:24 IN A _FUCKING IRC BOT_ 20:28:30 no need to shout 20:28:43 yes, there is, because you have a continual and constant failure of basic logic and reasonability 20:29:17 And well why do you think there are no mission critical systems in Befunge? Apart from it being a language where programs are hard to maintain, slow and so on? 20:29:35 AnMaster: maybe because it's an esolang that is slow, whose programs are hard to maintain? 20:29:39 maybe because it's AN ESOLANG 20:29:46 ehird, yes but apart from that :) 20:29:54 ha ha ha you're making a joke to justify your idiocy 20:29:57 very funny, but it's not valid 20:30:35 and I still stand by my point, breaking changes lead to bitrot 20:30:47 in a language hard to maintain this is even worse 20:31:11 I never questioned that; I just said that such programs would be written by people in this channel. fizzie hasn't disproved that yet. 20:31:15 AnMaster: To follow in the vein of your beaurocracy, please compile a list of programs that have been broken by the change, and your assesment of how hard it will be to fix them. 20:31:24 Once you can, then I will concede. 20:31:37 If you cannot, then I will continue to call your logic retarded andy our point invalid. 20:33:17 ehird, I'm not omniscient, I can't know everything, if I were, such a change would be trivial, since I would be able to tell all affected. 20:33:37 AnMaster: Occams razor dictates that the change is fine. 20:34:07 ehird, I don't see how you mean. 20:34:37 AnMaster: Considering your failure at logic I am not surprised. 20:34:38 Deewiant, also well what about other places? Not everyone is here, for example Mike Riley often isn't 20:35:06 ehird, well I do know what Occams razor is, I don't see what it has to do with breaking changes 20:35:18 ehird, so unless you can justify that? 20:35:42 AnMaster: Generally trivial logic that a 3-year-old could understand does not need justification. Your warped sense of reality, however, does. 20:35:46 AnMaster: and has he written a program broken by this change? Perhaps, but he was of course aware of the change. :-P 20:35:59 Deewiant, yes, but that shows there may be other ones 20:36:07 yes, there may be 20:36:11 my point was that there likely aren't 20:36:16 ehird, well then you don't seem to have anything valid to add, if you refuse to explain yourself 20:37:01 AnMaster: Trivial, undeniable, simple logic does not need justification. Your fucked-up justifications that turn out to actually be illogical do. 20:37:17 ehird, I'm still waiting for your justification. I have given my reasons. 20:37:36 AnMaster: I have adequately explained why only an idiot would need justification of a basic application of Occam's Razor. 20:37:41 ehird, I'm still waiting for your justification. I have given my reasons. 20:37:42 Do you want me to treat you as an idiot? I can if you want. 20:38:04 It can still break programs. It can be hard to debug. 20:38:13 Befunge programs are notorious for that. 20:38:19 Please read up. Thanks. 20:38:23 ^^^^^^ up there. 20:39:37 ehird, and I'm waiting for justification. Yes you prefer the simple solution. But I argue breaking existing programs that complies to the then published specs is not valid 20:39:50 There. Is. Nothing. To. Justify. 20:39:53 why do you think there is Funge-98 and Befunge-93? 20:40:04 Why not just rewrite "Befunge" as it was then known 20:40:16 there was indeed a reason. 20:40:17 Jesus christ you are an idiot. Now I have to put you on /ignore in all of 3 clients. 20:40:22 ehird, same 20:52:20 fungot: at least _you_ are reasonable, right? 20:52:21 oerjan: how's the scheme workshop of 2002, if i'm having connection issues, how would you answer ' which would be exactly that. 20:52:36 fungot: i'm sorry, i wasn't there 20:52:36 oerjan: the cygwin page does say programs need to work much better.) originally developed by miller puckette and company at fnord. 20:53:54 fungot: the guys at fnord made cygwin?! 20:53:54 Deewiant: that's using generators. for streams see srfi-40 or http://xmog.com/ scrap/ show/ fnord 20:54:15 fungot: xmog.com doesn't look like cygwin 20:54:15 Deewiant: a lisp in php 20:54:31 fungot: sounds disgusting 20:54:31 Deewiant: is there a special compiler i'll need, or to print to the channel 20:55:04 fungot: for that lisp in PHP? Probably yes 20:55:05 Deewiant: making your code `portable' only by virtue of the discussion flatt changed some of my init.el" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 274 20:55:44 fungot: You're quite the lisper these days. 20:55:45 fizzie: don't encourage him. it was created 20:55:58 fungot: Sounds suspiciously religious. 20:55:58 fizzie: i can't make out what you mean 20:56:09 fungot: that's some ugly lisp there 20:56:09 Deewiant: painful i/ o 20:56:33 fungot: try haskell 20:56:33 oerjan: it's the cryptogram type puzzle fairly quickly 20:56:56 fungot: Quite accurate, actually! 20:56:56 Deewiant: i don't really care about the finer points of old crotch blended highland scotch whiskey. 20:57:01 fungot: oh come on it's not _that_ weird 20:57:01 oerjan: it's very awesome 20:57:02 ew 20:57:06 old crotch blended? 20:57:17 O_O 20:57:28 something psygnisfive would like, i'm sure 20:57:37 what? 20:57:44 fungot: so wait, you don't care about the /finer points/? 20:57:45 Deewiant: if you can turn this into 20:57:46 maybe 20:58:10 fungot just wants to get drunk, he doesn't care about the finer points of the crotch-blended whsikey. 20:58:10 fizzie: it has the same illness as i do 20:58:26 fungot: I did not need to know that. 20:58:27 Deewiant: but printing ')' 20:58:32 Not everything is all right with that bot. 20:58:45 fizzie: mispleing whiskey is a bad omen 20:59:01 Drinking alcohol blended with old crotches and then getting illnesses from it? No, everything is certainly not right. 20:59:24 Deewiant: now now, remember strong alcohol is a disinfectant. i think. 20:59:37 oerjan: not if you get illnesses from it it isn't :-P 21:00:00 fungot: Do you think you'd feel better after a rewrite? 21:00:01 fizzie: are/ were any problems with hard disk space on a measly 40 gb drive. 21:00:36 fungot: Actually you only have a ~20 GB drive, but don't worry, only the language models take up much space. 21:00:36 fizzie: too slow to perform the o(n) resize once every n inserts 21:01:33 fungot: are you doing something fizzie doesn't know about? 21:01:33 oerjan: egobot does not flood. 21:01:55 indeed, no longer 21:07:08 -!- optbot has set topic: the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | let __ = __ in __ :: t. 21:07:55 ye olde infinite loope 21:08:28 (actually probably trapped) 21:08:44 What, it's a trap? 21:09:02 ghc traps simple infinite loops 21:09:25 those that reevaluate the exact same expression 21:10:35 SWI-Prolog has an amusing easter egg if you ask it a query like "X." but I've probably mentioned it on this very channel already. 21:10:46 i realized the other day it's actually quite trivial to notice you're reevaluating something, after you do it once, you're in a cycle, and it's enough to store one state in the cycle, and check if it appears again 21:10:56 it reappears iff there's a loop 21:11:37 The cycle might start later than that one state you've stored. 21:11:48 yes, but it's enough to change the stored state every now and then 21:11:56 hmm... 21:11:58 fizzie, I believe you were saying you would have used ATHR and so on? 21:12:02 Then you might not notice the cycle if it's long enough. 21:12:03 fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/YpkaJU36.html may interest you 21:12:07 current progress 21:12:10 fizzie: yeah 21:12:10 in the local feature branch 21:12:16 that's actually quite true 21:13:33 hm 21:13:46 i think my formalism might be equivalent to CCGs 21:13:50 If I have free time and the inclination to do a fungot rewrite, I might consider some form of ATHR-style threading. 21:13:51 fizzie: it's only the html pages are served up using lighttpd, and the 21:14:08 fizzie, be aware of that efunge is slower than even rc/funge 21:14:29 it is more for "interest feature ideas" than "raw performance" 21:14:51 it will never be as fast 21:15:09 Well, the IRC thing isn't really very speed-critical. If something's too slow to implement on the Brainfuck interp, I can do it as a "native" command. 21:15:11 and cfunge will never have all those weird fingerprints. Just the more tame ones. 21:15:42 fizzie, also SOCK hm, I will probably do my NSCK idea (which fixed lots of issues with SOCK/SCKE) 21:15:57 maybe SOCK too, but it was kind of messy to implement 21:18:35 Well, we'll see. I may start simply by cleaning up the existing code a bit. And I still lack the good editor. 21:28:33 o 21:31:28 oko 21:32:58 ^oko ok 21:32:58 okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko ... 21:33:18 One, Two, Infinity 21:35:18 banananananananananonokokokokokokokokokokoko 21:35:26 night all 21:36:42 numbers N for which doing NN for any a hyper operator is the identity function? 21:36:54 errrr 21:37:00 not identity, but all produce the same result 21:37:44 what is a hyper operator? 21:38:10 oh you mean the ones i said 21:38:25 2+2, 2*2, 2^2, 2\/-2, 2&"2, ... 21:38:33 what about zero? 21:38:36 yeah 21:38:39 was just thinking that 21:38:55 hmm 21:38:59 what's 0^0... 21:39:04 1 21:39:09 darn 21:39:10 0*0!=1 21:39:22 also 0^0 isn't usually defined afaik 21:39:28 Our high-school mathematics teacher used to say 0^0 is mickey mouse with one ear missing. 21:39:46 (Meaning: not very defined.) 21:39:51 0^^(0^0), on the other hand... 21:39:56 no but i vaguely recall discussions that said 1 is the most reasonable value 21:40:09 oerjan: most likely yes 21:40:17 sounds feasibool 21:41:17 A feasibool is like a bool value, but it can only take values that are (semantically speaking) feasible. 21:41:52 According to p. 408 of Knuth (1992), [0^0] "has to be 1". 21:42:17 Well, if Knuth says so, who am I to argue. 21:42:36 It's the "appeal to authority" method of proof. 21:43:07 lol - [Global Notice] Hi all. At 19:30 UTC, in two hours, we'd like to ask everyone to observe a minute of silence in sympathy with the victims of the terrorist attacks on September 11, their loved ones and friends. Channel admins, if you'd like to participate, please +m your channel for a minute and optionally deop at that time. Thanks. 21:43:16 (from 2001-09-13) 21:43:19 Or is it "Proof by eminent authority"? The example is given as: "I saw Karp in the elevator and he said it was probably NP-complete." 21:44:11 fizzie: proof by knuth 21:44:24 Oh, it has a separate category. 21:45:27 :P 21:45:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karp%27s_21_NP-complete_problems 21:45:59 That page was in my browser cache. 21:46:33 mine too i assume, since i saw it yesterday 21:51:02 :O 21:51:16 i found the perfect outlet for my computery languageu urges! 21:51:16 :O 21:51:26 languagey* 21:58:48 Porno? 21:59:14 ##compling 21:59:15 :O 21:59:31 computational linguistics? has an IRC channel? 22:00:03 Probably a support group after that mean xkcd strip. 22:01:27 I've also found an outlet for my computer language-y urges. 22:01:31 Programming language research. 22:07:23 also known as bantering in #esoteric? :P 22:07:59 i mean language-y in the natural language sens,e gregorr :P 22:09:22 olsner: no he's moved on to the real world now 22:09:44 oh, real world... how boring :) 22:09:45 i found the perfect outlet for my computery languageu urges! 22:09:49 Computery. 22:09:57 what? 22:10:29 'computery' = kindergarten 'computational' 22:10:45 computationalative languagation 22:11:45 Computationalaxative lenguanation 22:14:12 de linguis non est computandum 22:14:45 computationalativatiosivecious 22:14:51 err 22:14:55 lol 22:14:56 no. 22:14:57 i have two ouses 22:15:11 psygnisfive: no, yes. 22:15:17 :D 22:16:03 you can put any number of suffices on an english root, and it'll be pretty and cute. 22:16:23 hmph 22:16:28 i also had "-ive" twice 22:16:45 i'd put my suffix on your root, if you know what i mean 22:16:54 :D 22:17:02 computationalativatiosiveciousness 22:17:34 you have too ciouses and ives too 22:17:44 i just copied and pasted yours 22:17:46 and ness makes it a noun 22:17:52 SO? 22:17:57 ARE YOU PLAGIARIZING MY FAILURE 22:18:01 yes. 22:18:03 i just told you 22:18:08 i'd put my suffix on your root 22:18:22 I'll put my suffix on YOUR root. 22:18:26 technically i put it on your stem 22:18:30 since the root is "compute' 22:18:33 but still 22:18:40 i'll put my root on your *mother*'s suffix 22:18:49 :( 22:19:13 ...err do gays have mothers, actually? 22:19:23 *facepalm* 22:19:29 :D 22:19:29 no 22:19:32 They sprout from rocks and/or eggs. 22:19:42 usually rocks. 22:19:53 hence our affinity for metal and metal-related things 22:20:05 thus all our clubs are named accordingly 22:20:23 i like metal... 22:20:31 I'm allergic to chrome. 22:20:48 im allergic to vagina. 22:20:49 GregorR: we all know you gods hate fags 22:21:05 oklopol: Hey I swapped my personality back. 22:21:15 unless its on a guy, in which case its powers of rash are reduced significantly 22:21:19 oh you did? 22:21:25 sorry then 22:21:47 :P 22:21:52 you didn't tell us 22:22:06 No, it reverts automatically after a timeout. 22:22:11 this is why all the gayness has been bottled up tonight, we were scared of you 22:22:22 i bottled up nothing! 22:22:23 i see, i see 22:22:36 i should get back to reading 22:22:39 does that mean we can cancel the protest against you? 22:23:05 it's just the book is excruciatingly hard to read :P 22:23:11 http://codu.org/pics/other/pec2.jpg 22:23:12 as good books should be 22:23:16 what book? 22:23:37 better gregorr 22:23:42 much better 22:24:12 psygnisfive: still the same book 22:24:32 now maybe add a long shadow-reflect with the same angle as the shadow-reflect of your right leg 22:24:53 oklopol: what book 22:25:09 algorithm design by eva tardos and jon kleinberg 22:25:13 ah ok 22:25:32 read the first 600 pages for a course, but need to read the rest for another one 22:25:44 and the last few hundred pages are complete mindfuck 22:25:46 im going to read some lecture notes (essentially a book) from an MIT math-for-CS class 22:25:54 so its all discrete math and combinatorics and stuff 22:25:59 she never wrote another book, since that would be retarded 22:26:10 (and no one dl this somewhere and tell me it's simple or i will slap you with my trout) 22:26:35 oklopol: gimme? 22:26:42 i just have it in book form 22:26:47 oh i see 22:26:48 and i managed to destroy even that 22:26:49 ok 22:26:55 by soaking it in water for about a day 22:27:01 :P 22:27:14 oklopol: you have a trout? 22:27:20 i get about 200e a month, 78.6 euros for a book, and i destroy it in a week :) 22:27:31 oerjan: tons of them 22:27:38 yeah but you live with your parents, oklopol 22:27:42 that's how i use the remaining 121.4e 22:27:51 psygnisfive: i do? 22:27:55 i tought you did 22:28:00 last i heard from you you did! 22:28:02 * oklopol is gay and lives with his parents 22:28:19 err 22:28:20 how can you be gay, you have a girlfriend, dont be silly 22:28:31 i doubt i've lived with my parents during the time you've known me 22:28:40 moved out near february 22:28:46 hm. 22:28:53 well whatever, it doesnt matter 22:28:55 you've both been here longer than that haven't you? 22:28:57 indeed it doesn't 22:29:06 i dont know if ive been here since february 22:29:07 mightve 22:29:13 but you *did* live with your parents! hah! 22:29:13 whatever. 22:29:30 actually he was an orphan 22:29:32 never adopted 22:29:42 oh, poor sod 22:29:43 raised in an orphanage his entire life 22:29:48 -!- ehird__ has quit ("Leaving"). 22:29:48 -!- ehird_ has quit ("Leaving"). 22:29:55 his parents were murderers you see 22:30:01 the killed him!? 22:30:04 no no 22:30:07 but my parents live in this city, i do get moneys from them if i need 22:30:19 he killed them!? 22:30:20 from their hit jobs 22:30:26 i don't, though, 200 is enough for my needs 22:30:32 they killed people by forming queues at convenience stores at 3am 22:30:32 usually 22:30:38 queues 22:30:40 ueues 22:30:42 eues 22:30:44 ues 22:30:45 es 22:30:45 s 22:30:47 and then they were arrested 22:30:50 a little pyramid for ya 22:31:00 it was sad, really 22:31:02 or a queue being de-queued 22:31:04 yay! now i can sharpen my razors 22:31:16 on the queuepyramid? 22:31:36 no, inside it, silly 22:31:54 inside the queuepyramid? 22:31:55 oh yes! 22:32:00 because pyramids sharpen things 22:32:04 silly me 22:32:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_power 22:32:25 have i mentioned that i despise those people? 22:32:28 those newagists 22:32:31 nutballs 22:32:40 ^cho queues 22:32:40 queuesueueseuesuesess 22:32:50 Added back that missing echochohoo. 22:33:00 lolwhut 22:33:15 psygnisfive: i thought you liked balls with nuts 22:33:32 balls WITH nuts? 22:33:35 thats a bit extreme there 22:33:41 i'll take just either, thanks 22:34:07 * oerjan thought the nuts were the things inside the balls 22:34:26 Put the nuts in the pyramid, you'll get them sharpened. 22:34:40 wait, what, no, the nuts *are* the balls 22:34:43 http://web.mac.com/arnold_zwicky/BizarroErrors.gif lulz 22:35:08 * psygnisfive knuffelt olsner's balls 22:35:52 hm it seems so 22:36:02 that's a quite severe invasion of privacy there, psygnisfive 22:36:20 no knuffeling allowed without permission 22:36:41 would you rather i knuffel your ass? 22:36:43 kein Verknuffelung! 22:36:58 :| 22:37:10 im going to lay down 22:37:18 im exhaustedish 22:37:23 * psygnisfive hugs oklopol <3 22:37:40 only -ish? then you can't be exhausted! 22:37:52 you'd have to settle for very tired, IMO 22:37:56 im not exhausted 22:38:00 hence why i said exhaustedish! 22:38:51 * olsner exclaims "meh!" 22:58:25 hugsssssssss 23:01:00 well, nighto' 23:01:05 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:12:47 nn 23:13:14 nanonine 23:17:43 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 23:18:15 -!- LinuS has quit ("Puzzi. S, parlo proprio con te. Puzzi."). 23:36:46 oooooooooooooooooooooo