00:00:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw at some point I will probably implement DATE and maybe also EVAR. Maybe NCRS too
00:11:51 <Asztal> congratulations on passing your mycology exam :)
00:12:47 * SimonRC wishes he could be as productive as you people
00:12:54 <SimonRC> that is mostly not sarcastic
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00:29:37 <oklopol> SimonRC: we're productive?
00:31:20 * SimonRC listens to the final episode of The Brightonomicon on BBC 7.
00:31:28 <SimonRC> oklopol: yeah, you write actual code
00:31:45 <oklopol> i've actually done very little of that in the recent months.
00:32:02 <oklopol> mostly been reading, not sure you can call that productive
00:32:42 <oerjan> oklopol: your mom got impregnated by a zebra
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00:33:36 <oklopol> err, why does this info come to me through you? i should really try to keep better in touch with my parents.
00:34:06 <oerjan> mainly because you asked us to
00:34:42 <oerjan> 23:18 oklopol> okay. i'm going to leave now. if i come back in less than, say, three hours, please say something insulting about my mother
00:35:55 <oklopol> thanks, i had so forgotten that thing i said like 5 minutes ago :P
00:36:22 <oklopol> (and that was sarcasm IF YOU DIDN'T NOTICE : |)
00:36:44 <oerjan> oh sarcasm, thought it was alzheimer
00:38:00 <oklopol> alzheimerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
00:38:39 <oklopol> second reads are always nicer, i remember pretty much everything, so i can just skip almost every page
00:42:41 <oklopol> lol "zebra" comes from "wild ass", puts this whole conversation into perspective really.
00:58:44 <olsner> note also that zebras are black with white stripes rather than white with black stripes
01:00:02 <SimonRC> ... it lacked a certain something, but good nonetheless.
01:00:26 <olsner> what lacked and what did it lack?
01:00:51 <oerjan> should have used more rum
01:01:40 <SimonRC> the thing I went /away to listen to
01:05:28 <SimonRC> the thing that was on the radio: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00fksh6
01:12:17 <olsner> my leg is already sleeping, maybe I should follow it soon
01:17:46 <oklopol> my back is already hurting, so guess i should start hitting the other parts of my body against a wall or something.
01:18:20 <olsner> yes, even it out a bit
01:18:58 <olsner> you're in luck though - it's far easier running forward into a wall than running backwards into a wall
01:19:39 <oklopol> actually i'm fluent in both.
01:53:36 <MizardX> ehird (or whoever can answer): In Jumpfuck, does a continuation include the memory pointer, or just the instruction pointer?
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12:51:02 <ehird> MizardX: ehird (or whoever can answer): In Jumpfuck, does a continuation include the memory pointer, or just the instruction pointer?
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15:10:38 <MizardX> ehird: That would duplicate the argument on the tape. The next cell being the argument, the current cell replaced by the value of the argument; Leaving two copies of the argument, starting from the current position.
15:10:51 <ehird> MizardX: Ah, I misunderstood you.
15:10:53 <ehird> Yes, memory pointer too.
15:10:59 <ehird> But not the actual memory contents.
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15:38:54 <MizardX> ehird: I think I managed to build simple subroutines, but they don't support recursion. http://pastie.org/316101
15:39:06 <ehird> MizardX: very nice!
15:39:25 <ehird> MizardX: hmm, is that fortran-style calling?
15:39:28 <ehird> each function gets one frame on the stack
15:40:15 <MizardX> Since only one argument is allowed, you can either pass the return address, or an argument. A function without arguments isn't very useful.
15:40:43 <MizardX> err... return continuation
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15:41:52 <ehird> MizardX: Hm, the one argument thing is a bit of a problem, but -
15:41:55 <ehird> do you know how to do lists in brainfuck?
15:41:58 <ehird> 1 VAL 1 VAL 1 VAL 0
15:42:15 <ehird> You traverse over, using your list-index as the hopper instead of 1, and decreasing each time
15:42:24 <ehird> You could do that, just specify an index in the list as an argument list...
15:44:11 <MizardX> Hmm... using a call stack at the beginning of the tape...
15:44:51 <ehird> JumpFuck was a 5 minute thing...
15:45:34 <MizardX> But how to find your way back when you return from the sub-routine?
15:45:57 <MizardX> memory pointer would be positioned at the stack
15:47:40 <MizardX> continuation call for that too? It would be a lot of overhead for a simple sub-routine call...
15:50:00 <ehird> MizardX: Well, subroutines aren't that cheap...
15:50:18 <ehird> But seriously, a continuation is just two integers...
15:50:22 <ehird> And calling it is just setting two.
15:54:36 <MizardX> Well... too tired to think about that now. Time to go and buy some pizza! :)
15:56:36 <MizardX> Fortran-style sub-routines for call/return, and the rest using the stack.
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17:58:52 <Mony> ^ul (oOOoOOooOOoOOo)S
17:59:58 <Mony> ^ul (^ul^ul (^ul)S)S
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18:14:09 <MizardX> geh.. breaks on both cr and lf
18:15:01 <Deewiant> right, that's valid but a no-op
18:19:05 <MizardX> +ul ((+ul )S:aSS)(+ul )S:aSS
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18:21:08 <MizardX> ( ) pushes content onto stack, S prints top of stack, : duplicates top of stack, a wraps top of stack in parenthesis
18:21:19 <MizardX> executed from left to right
18:22:12 <oklokok> MizardX: yes that's a random subset of underload command alright.
18:22:42 <oklokok> ! is pop, it's like "fuck off!!"
18:23:13 <oklokok> ~ swaps the two topmost stack cells
18:23:52 <MizardX> +ul (foo)(bar)SS(foo)(bar)~SS
18:24:28 <oklokok> you can remember ~ from like a worm that wiggles into the stack and brings out cell number two
18:24:40 <oklokok> i like to make fun memory pegs.
18:26:51 <oklokok> no i gotta read / complain about not having read enough this weekend
18:27:03 <oklokok> MizardX: are you new @ irc and old @ esolangs.org?
18:28:21 <oklokok> because your nick sounds familiar, but i don't remember seeing you here
18:28:54 <oklokok> planning on compiling more stuff to other stuff?
18:30:04 <MizardX> We'll see... trying to get Redivider -> C working
18:30:22 <oklokok> what is the implementation language?
18:30:53 <oklokok> i was thinking subleg->bf, afaik there aren't that many cycles in the compilation graph.
18:31:02 <oklokok> or was that true for interpretation only
18:31:22 <oklokok> you and ais inspired me to do bf->subleg on friday
18:31:39 <oklokok> it's nice when people do stuff, gives me incentive to do at least as much stuff.
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18:31:55 * oklokok is a very competitive weirdo
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18:32:40 <MizardX> I'm going to climb Mount Everest tomorrow. >_>
18:33:14 <MizardX> Ah, maybe should go to sleep. I'm sitting here laughing at my self
18:33:51 <oklopol> MizardX: then may i assume your nick comes from mountain wizard extreme"?
18:34:02 <oklopol> *"moutnain wizard extreme"
18:37:10 <MizardX> It was a joke, a lie to get rid of the competition. Bad joke, since I was the only one laughing.
18:39:02 <MizardX> Mizard was originaly from Lizard, but "Wizard" was later adopted. X was first just a letter, and now means unknown/secret. An alias so to speak.
18:44:09 <oklopol> well that's a bit dissappointing, mountain wizards are cool.
18:44:29 <fizzie> oklopol: How goes the running?
18:44:46 <oklopol> and one day ahead of schedual
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18:45:43 <fizzie> A friend on other channel had (without provocation) gotten to the same 100.2 result with exactly the same technique I used.
18:46:00 <oklopol> yeah, and i watched the youtube clips, everyone is doing it that way
18:46:40 <oklopol> i may make a vid at some point
18:52:06 <oklopol> also i may want to get a better jump
18:52:14 <oklopol> i basically just fell on my face at the end of track.
18:52:24 <oklopol> was almost fainting from excitement at that point
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20:09:32 <AnMaster> if I implemented a SQL fingerprint, would anyone use it?
20:09:38 <AnMaster> what about you fizzie for example?
20:10:41 <AnMaster> oh and ATHR isn't dead if anyone thought so
20:10:46 <AnMaster> I just had a lot to do recently
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20:15:26 <psygnisfive> could i secure my Oracle server with an SQL fingerprint reader? :3
20:17:49 <Asztal> SQLite would be cool :)
20:18:15 <AnMaster> Asztal, question is, would anyone use it?
20:18:24 <AnMaster> and would it fit into the funge "feel"?
20:19:26 <Asztal> maybe it's just better to wait until the need arises?
20:19:59 <AnMaster> but if anyone wanted sqlite, would they even consider funge?
20:20:45 <Deewiant> if anyone wanted anything, would they even consider funge?
20:20:58 <ehird> psygnisfive: fingerprints are terrible for authentication
20:21:21 * AnMaster have been working with mysql for most of the day :/
20:21:51 <psygnisfive> anmaster have been neglecting subject-tensed-verb-agreement
20:21:51 <Asztal> I think I'd rather use any sort of funge SQL fingerprint than mysql
20:22:07 <ehird> is AnMaster talking?
20:22:08 <ehird> that'd make more sense
20:22:15 <ehird> this conversation was ever so slightly surreal
20:22:55 <psygnisfive> hold the newsreaders nose squarely, waiter, or friendly milk will countermand my trousers!
20:23:27 <ehird> You have two cows. The government gives you arthritis.
20:23:50 <psygnisfive> why would FRIENDLY milk countermand your anything?!
20:24:22 <psygnisfive> when Dali was asked if he did drugs he replied "My dear, I /am/ drugs"
20:25:40 <Asztal> I have everyone ignored
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20:33:02 <psygnisfive> breathe on me again, motherfucker, see what you get
20:33:48 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> anmaster have been neglecting subject-tensed-verb-agreement
20:34:09 <psygnisfive> "AnMaster have been working with mysql for most of the day :/"
20:34:50 <psygnisfive> not unless you're british and ehird is a band
20:34:59 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, but my client shows it as <nick> peforms /me: <data>
20:35:03 <ehird> i have 1 member: ehird
20:35:07 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, what is the right form for that?
20:35:28 <fungot> perform ...out of stack!
20:36:11 <psygnisfive> they believe that life on earth was made by aliens
20:36:26 <psygnisfive> and who were immortalized as the gods (and then god) of the bible
20:38:33 <GregorR> That was totally conversationally relevant.
20:39:02 <AnMaster> which is why psygnisfive went back on ignore
20:39:44 <oklopol> i'm gonna ignore a random person here now
20:39:59 <psygnisfive> theres no such thing as conversational relevance
20:40:08 <oklopol> is there a command for getting the name list
20:40:18 <oklopol> or can someone list it for me
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20:40:34 <oklopol> listed in the server window.
20:40:44 <oklopol> mirc usually lists on the channel, although it's verry random
20:41:14 <Asztal> oh, in mIRC script? there's definitely a way of getting the internal name list...
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20:42:05 <psygnisfive> typing /names completely trashed limechat :O
20:42:26 <oklopol> let's just hope he doesn't say anything interesting for a while.
20:42:41 <oklopol> done. and i thought i'd never get to use that feature! :D
20:43:29 <psygnisfive> lets make love and listen to death from above
20:47:51 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, * psygnisfive has quit (SendQ exceeded)
20:47:59 <AnMaster> I wonder what the heck it was doing
20:48:10 <AnMaster> probably outputting names to channel or something silly
20:48:22 <AnMaster> and yes the timed ignore is over
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20:49:24 <ehird> lament: sorry. it was murdered.
20:49:33 <ehird> because ais523 put a rule in the topic saying it can't change the topic.
20:49:36 <ehird> that pretty much settles it.
20:49:46 <psygnisfive> just typing /names tho got me names form a bunch of different rooms
20:52:33 <AnMaster> my client adds the current tab
21:00:46 <oklopol> you can't think about me, i'm inthinkible!
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21:06:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so who was it that sent you (and all us on CC) that hate mail about fingerprint behaviour?
21:06:30 <AnMaster> I couldn't figure out who it was
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21:10:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Language::Befunge's author, there was more discussion on the mailing list there between me and him... he's still not convinced but he agreed to implement it our way
21:11:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err didn't it say his interpreter failed far before
21:12:14 <ais523_> AnMaster: actually I'm not actually here, ehird just decided to say hi to me for no reason
21:12:44 <AnMaster> ais523_, so who was it that said that?
21:12:59 <ehird> ais523_: you are attempting to apply logic to AnMaster
21:13:13 <AnMaster> well I responded back with logic
21:13:18 <ais523_> <AnMaster> ais523_, so who was it that said that? <--- I don't understand
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21:13:32 <AnMaster> ais523, who am I talking with if you are not there?
21:13:58 <ais523_> AnMaster: ask ehird, he's the one who said hi
21:14:19 <ais523_> hmm... ask one of the bots to ask ehird then
21:14:30 <AnMaster> ais523_, or I can ask you to ask him?
21:14:43 <ehird> ais523_: the answer is "kill yourself and i'll tell you"
21:14:46 <ais523_> ehird: who did you say hi to when you said hi to ais523_?
21:14:47 <ehird> it's a very helpful answer :D
21:15:11 <ais523_> also, probably false as how could you tell I'd killed myself in the first place?
21:15:49 <ehird> i was talking to AnMaster
21:16:16 <ais523_> ehird: still doesn't solve the fundamental problem, just mess around with the pronouns
21:19:48 <AnMaster> GregorR, now that made 0 sense
21:20:26 <AnMaster> while I was thinking ais523 would simply redefine here to solve the issue
21:20:41 <AnMaster> he is after all not physically in this channel, nor is anyone else
21:21:00 <ais523_> AnMaster: oh, I wasn't attempting to make sense at all, I was just blatantly lying in the hope of an interesting conversation
21:23:27 <AnMaster> ais523, so what are you doing?
21:24:09 <oklopol> ehird -> AnMaster -> psygnisfive
21:24:18 <AnMaster> ais523, any updates on underlambda?
21:24:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, that was a timed ignore
21:24:52 <AnMaster> it is gone since over half an hour
21:24:56 <ais523_> AnMaster: no, I've been either playing Battle for Wesnoth, sleeping in a panic because I've realised it's 6pm, going to a roleplaying club, or coming here and idling
21:25:16 <AnMaster> ais523_, you play wesnoth too?
21:25:17 <oklopol> psygnisfive: doesn't work, AnMaster doesn't have you on ignore anymore
21:25:20 <oklopol> you know what you have to do.
21:25:31 <ais523_> AnMaster: yes, so do lots of people
21:25:44 <ais523_> it's one of the most popular computer games on Linux...
21:25:56 <ais523_> (more worrying is that I actually recognise some of the people in the credits)
21:26:08 <AnMaster> ais523_, well hm, I saw ESR in it
21:26:17 <oklopol> i think the task of converting search problems to graphs is complex yet useful enough to deserve some kinda language-level support.
21:26:20 <ais523_> some of the #nethack regulars are there too
21:26:33 <ais523_> and I'm not a serious enough player to track the svn
21:26:34 <AnMaster> ais523_, I wonder why the heck it is that popular though
21:26:40 <ais523_> however, their .cfg files are Turing-complere
21:26:50 <ais523_> I might write a BF interp in them sometime
21:26:52 <AnMaster> ais523_, I have suspected that since long
21:27:05 <AnMaster> those WML or whatever they are called
21:27:08 <oklopol> another idea i'd like to try in a language is that of keeping everything local, mainly you have certain ways to get information from another part of the algorithm even though you didn't store it there
21:27:15 <ais523_> AnMaster: they have while loops, and you can generate infinite storage using several different methods
21:27:22 <AnMaster> ais523_, and IMO it is a horrible hacky macro language
21:27:35 <ais523_> Muriel-style, creating and unrecalling units to have a huge unit set, or generating identifiers on the fly
21:27:47 <ais523_> not for actual programming in, though
21:27:53 <AnMaster> ais523, creating a lot of units will crash wesnoth
21:28:05 <oklopol> that's what you'd do with english, something like "loop this action here; now do some other action; now print the number of cycles you went around the loop" <<< you wouldn't actually say, when describing the loop, that we're storing the cycle count
21:28:13 <ais523_> did you create them all on the map?
21:28:24 <ais523_> create and unrecall/store would be the more obvious way to get lots of units
21:28:30 <AnMaster> ais523_, more than 500 units in the recall list doesn't really show up in reality
21:28:32 <ais523_> if the recall roster can fill up and crash it, that's a serious bug
21:28:42 <AnMaster> also even with around 100-200 units recall is awfully slow
21:28:47 <ais523_> AnMaster: it could do in a long enough campaign, I suppose
21:28:55 <ais523_> and yes, the UI would be a pain if you had 200 recallables
21:28:57 <AnMaster> ais523_, usually it won't happen
21:29:25 <AnMaster> because the long epic campaigns usually manage to kill off a lot of units
21:29:48 <ais523_> but it would be trivial if you were /trying/ for it
21:29:51 <AnMaster> say, over the burning sands, Northern rebirth, whateverh that new one is
21:30:05 <ais523_> I don't know which ones are new and which ones aren't
21:30:11 <ais523_> but decent into darkness is infinitely long
21:30:18 <AnMaster> ais523, well yeah also I hate it
21:30:32 <ais523_> so do I, I decided I didn't like it when I saw it was infinitely long with a stupid ending
21:30:48 * ais523_ prefers codereading computer games to playing them...
21:30:54 <ais523_> AnMaster: ah, I don't have that one
21:31:02 <AnMaster> ais523_, mainlined in svn iirc
21:31:23 <ais523_> well, I'll wait for the distro to package the release, I think
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21:31:34 <ais523_> IIRC Ubuntu just copies Debian for Wesnoth
21:31:34 <AnMaster> there is the not yet mainlined Invasion from the Unknown
21:31:42 <AnMaster> it is split into two campaigns
21:31:54 <ais523_> AnMaster: can you recall from one to the other?
21:31:56 <AnMaster> and it takes over a minute for wesnoth to "build cache"
21:32:07 <AnMaster> ais523, at the end of the first you can choose to continue
21:32:16 <AnMaster> but you hardly have any units left at that point anyway
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21:32:32 <ais523_> AnMaster: you could have just left some good ones in recall anyway just for the hell of it
21:32:52 <ais523_> the carry-over gold doesn't matter nearly as much as campaigns have to allow for that possibility anyway
21:33:02 <ais523_> (the minimum gold should always be enough to complete the level IMO)
21:33:02 <oklopol> some kinda strategy thing?
21:33:06 <AnMaster> ais523, well you are surrounded by something like 5 high level undead armies in the last two battles
21:33:21 <oklopol> any details worth knowing?
21:33:56 <ais523_> oklopol: it has a TC programming language to describe levels, although AnMaster doesn't like it it seems
21:34:36 <oklopol> ais523: that is true of many dsl's, is it tc in an interesting way?
21:34:47 <oklopol> if it has a "while", i'm scceptical
21:34:53 <ais523_> (hmm... their programming lang looks vaguely XML-based, it has [if] condition=true [then] {DO_STUFF} [/then] [else] {DO_OTHER_STUFF} [/else] [/if] as the main conditional construct
21:34:59 <ais523_> oklopol: no, the control flow is very typical
21:35:03 <AnMaster> ais523, xml? oh yes xml with []
21:35:06 <ais523_> inlined procedures + do + while
21:35:17 <AnMaster> ais523, aren't those {} macros?
21:35:25 <ais523_> the only interesting thing about it from a TCness point of view is you have to do tricks to get infinite storage
21:35:30 <ais523_> and {} is a macro reference, yes
21:35:36 <oklopol> ais523: well that's a shame, i'd've wished you'd need to make some kinda computer ai for tcness...
21:35:49 <ais523_> the AIs are in Python, IIRC
21:35:50 <oklopol> if you don't need the actual game for it, that's already a big minues
21:36:03 <oklopol> anything worth knowing about the actual game?
21:36:06 <ais523_> AnMaster: no, the game itself is in C++
21:36:23 <ais523_> oklopol: turn-based, hexagon-based, rules are quite simple, unusual in the amount of difference between the sides
21:36:30 <ais523_> AnMaster: it is so not an RTS, it isn't real-time it's turn-based
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21:36:57 <ais523_> it has a huge amount of variety for a strategy game
21:37:03 <ais523_> most of them just have 2 or 3 types of objective
21:37:09 <oklopol> hmm. i almost want to try that
21:37:32 <oklopol> could you make a level that was actually just a chessboard with chess rules?
21:37:37 <AnMaster> ais523, and the variety is partly due to the tc-ness
21:38:05 <ais523_> although it would be quite difficult, you'd have to say "that's an illegal move" a lot and kill people if they didn't undo it
21:38:05 <AnMaster> ais523, LoW even contains a scenario where you give the allied AI orders
21:38:16 <ais523_> or else change the terrain so only legal moves were possible
21:38:17 <oklopol> ais523: yeah, that was my idea
21:38:39 <AnMaster> ais523_, and you can say "this is more important than that"
21:38:52 <oklopol> it would be great if you saw the mechanics of how the rules worked when playing the game
21:39:02 <oklopol> would have an eso feel to it.
21:39:13 <ais523_> oklopol: the mechanics of the game itself are all in the open
21:39:19 <ais523_> as in, if you try to attack someone, say
21:39:30 <ais523_> it gives you all the stats and calculations, and how it came to them
21:39:48 <AnMaster> ais523, often it is just depressing however ;P
21:39:53 <oklopol> does that game work on windows?
21:40:07 <AnMaster> but why would anyone want windows?
21:40:11 <ais523_> e.g. you know that each of your attacks has a 50% chance of hitting and does 4 damage and heals you 2, except your opponents attacks have a 70% chance of hitting, alternate with yours and will halve your damage potential when they hit, but it only has 2 of them and you have 6
21:40:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: it comes with the laptop
21:40:36 <AnMaster> ais523, don't forget "first strike" "defense", type of ground and so on
21:41:20 <AnMaster> ais523_, sometimes the maths for it is a nightmare
21:41:27 <oklopol> hmm... wonder if there's some other more robust game so you could add unit building and other stuff to it.
21:41:32 <AnMaster> oklopol, you could install another OS too?
21:41:44 <oklopol> by robust i mean, if you change chess even a bit, it's an entirely different game
21:42:00 <oklopol> AnMaster: i would install another os if that was easy.
21:42:03 <ais523_> hmm... the thing's played on a hex grid though
21:42:20 <ais523_> AnMaster: Ubuntu's pretty easy on Windows nowadays, you can download an installer and install it as a Windows program
21:42:23 <AnMaster> ais523, wesnoth is on a hex gird isn't it?
21:42:26 <oklopol> i'm assuming it'd take more than clicking a button and waiting for 5 minutes
21:42:35 <oklopol> that's pretty much my limit
21:42:41 <ais523_> oklopol: it is clicking a button, asking a few questions and waiting for about 10 minutes
21:42:47 <oklopol> ais523: you can get around the hex grid.
21:43:03 <oklopol> ais523: well okay, that sounds easy
21:43:05 <AnMaster> yes the hex gird would mess up chess
21:43:12 <ais523_> Weschess would be an interesting project, come to think of it
21:43:19 <oklopol> it's just i have a feeling it just wouldn't work, and i'd have to do more than just that.
21:43:19 <ais523_> AnMaster: yes it would, use alternate columns and alternate rows
21:43:25 <ais523_> and you have a standard chessboard
21:43:25 <oklopol> i can't even get mingw to install
21:43:33 <AnMaster> ais523, hm maybe you could approximate it using 4x4 or so?
21:43:36 <oklopol> for some reason when you were helping me do that, i only installed C
21:43:43 <AnMaster> and just override the move rules
21:43:52 <ais523_> oklopol: yes, sometimes it doesn't work first time, and you need to ask for help, but I've had much less trouble installing Ubuntu than I have for Cygwin
21:44:18 <ais523_> AnMaster: well, you can change terrain at runtime, and unit's terrain movements at runtime
21:44:18 <oklopol> i'd prefer if someone just installed it for me.
21:44:30 <oklopol> i'm getting so goddamn tired at installing things.
21:44:37 <AnMaster> well I think LFS is simpler than cygwin
21:44:58 <oklopol> i never learn to do it myself if the one-click method doesn't work, and it never does.
21:45:14 <oklopol> (i never learn, based on having done it a thousand times)
21:45:17 <ais523_> just I didn't get the acronym straight off
21:45:25 <oklopol> i'm an idiot at stuff like that
21:45:29 <ais523_> I have auto-built a linux distro from source, but it was Makefile-automated
21:45:37 <ais523_> the makefile was full of wgets to places like kernel.org
21:45:45 <ais523_> worked fine the first time but the dependencies were all screwed up
21:45:52 <AnMaster> oklopol, you learned one thing
21:46:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, you learned that you never learn anything else
21:46:12 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, but slowly, and i get frustrated and occasionally hit my screen.
21:46:16 <oklopol> that's not exactly healthy
21:46:25 <oklopol> i'm very violent when it comes to machines.
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21:46:44 <oklopol> humans never piss me off, though, for some reason
21:46:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, what about an AI? would it piss you off?
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21:47:17 <ais523_> why does Mibbit log me off at random every now and then for no good reason
21:48:14 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't know, haven't met one
21:48:21 <AnMaster> ais523, what were the other ways for storage in wesnoth you said?
21:48:36 <ais523_> Muriel-style might work, but I'm not sure
21:48:42 <ais523_> could you do evals at runtime?
21:48:45 <AnMaster> ais523_, hm not familiar with that one?
21:48:57 <fizzie> oklopol: Does fungot piss you off when it doesn't work?
21:48:58 <fungot> fizzie: some ancient submarine volcanic origin, a high hill :) feldspathic clay-slate projected, retaining its usual defined outline, dead, and one which was just perceptibly fnord and this yields 0.25 per cent.
21:49:03 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know WML syntax very well
21:49:13 <ais523_> AnMaster: basically, the only way to do flow control is to construct a new program, then replace the original program with it and rerun from the start
21:49:19 <ais523_> sort of like Underload where ^ doesn't return
21:49:39 <ais523_> also, I think you can store any number of units in one variable
21:49:40 <AnMaster> ais523_, I suspect it woudln't work to do that
21:49:54 <ais523_> and it becomes an array automatically
21:50:00 <ais523_> there are no obvious limits on array length...
21:50:14 <AnMaster> ais523, since wesnoth fully expands the file when building the cache
21:50:48 <AnMaster> ais523, but it expand all macros
21:51:20 <oklopol> fizzie: when has it not worked?
21:51:22 <AnMaster> also I have that idea for a syntax less language, somewhat like lisp, but even less syntax
21:51:33 <AnMaster> not sure if you heard about it ais523 ?
21:51:42 <fizzie> oklopol: Well, I hear it doesn't exactly always make sense.
21:51:48 <ais523_> AnMaster: no, I didn't, but Underload is pretty short on syntax...
21:51:51 <oklopol> fizzie: i never have an actual need to get fungot working, so i don't think it would piss me off.
21:51:51 <fungot> oklopol: goura coronata and victoriae, hybrids :).
21:52:09 <oklopol> fizzie: i haven't experienced that
21:52:09 <ais523_> and Malbolge is even shorter
21:52:11 <AnMaster> ais523, my language got truly no syntax
21:52:18 <AnMaster> ais523, everything is done using the file system
21:52:42 <AnMaster> so you just modify the directories and filenames on your file system
21:52:43 <oklopol> the extent of bot malfunctioning i can think of is that thutubot doesn't always gracefully terminate on erroneous input.
21:52:45 <ais523_> that's much more syntaxful than Malbolge, I think
21:52:48 <AnMaster> symlinks for calling other functions
21:52:52 <ais523_> you have an entire directory tree worth of syntax there
21:52:55 <oklopol> but tries to evaluate with undefined output
21:53:03 <AnMaster> ais523, hah but that isn't a syntax really
21:53:05 <ais523_> oklopol: it wasn't designed to handle erroneous input
21:53:13 <ais523_> and as you noticed, it uses {{ }} for some internal stuff
21:53:35 <oklopol> ais523: yes, that's why it's not really malfunctioning, just the closest thing to bot malfunctioning i can recall.
21:54:14 <ais523_> quite hard to set it off in the first place, it seems...
21:54:26 <ais523_> also, no idea how the = ended up in output, maybe there's a bug in my Thutu interp
21:55:29 <oklopol> god there's a lot of ideas in my brain
21:55:40 <oklopol> annoying, why can't they come at a steady pace :|
21:56:05 <oklopol> but no, they have to come in bursts. and usually when i don't have time to program or spec anything
21:56:28 <oklopol> (mainly because i get ideas from doing stuff, and if i'm doing stuff, i usually need to finish it)
21:56:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, just write down the ideas
21:56:33 <oklopol> (i guess that's pretty common)
21:57:31 <AnMaster> ais523, does it reset it's internal state between the commands or?
21:57:58 <ais523_> AnMaster: yes, the internal state is wiped out by a very match-everything regex every iteration
21:58:28 <ais523_> driving it into an infiniloop is the only real way to disrupt it, but I suspect even that's impossible unless I've screwed up the out of time code somehow
21:58:29 <oklopol> AnMaster: well i do, it's just i need to be excited about the idea as well, and i tend to forget parts of it, because not all is explicit in my head and thus writable down, and lose some of the interest.
21:58:57 <oklopol> i have a lot of ideas in lists that i have no idea what the point is anymore :P
21:59:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, maybe there was no point?
21:59:44 <oklopol> my ideas always have a point. if nothing else, the point is there's no point in the idea.
21:59:54 <oklopol> preventing me to make the same mistake again
22:01:21 <oklopol> like that GC idea i had. i've developed a whole new intuition of inherently "amortizedly trivial, hard to do online" problems from that, after i couldn't get it to work
22:02:37 <oklopol> i thought i'd invented an online GC algorithm that worked fundamentally differently than doing it amortizedly, but at the same time as continuing running the program.
22:02:59 <ais523_> oklopol: I liked your GC idea too, but I thought "wow that will be difficult, if even possible, to implement"
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22:03:43 <oklopol> what i got out of it was a pretty strong impression that you cannot do it. of course algorithmically it's the same whether you do it online, or whether you run the GC in the background
22:04:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, can you tell me how it worked?
22:04:39 <oklopol> oerjan: keep an invariant true as you read input, and not make it true in a monolithic action.
22:05:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, when was this so I can read logs?
22:05:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: i have no idea. i can't estimate time
22:05:40 <oklopol> after summer, before this weekend
22:05:56 <oklopol> honestly cannot pinpoint better.
22:06:05 <oklopol> yeah it's impossible to find things in the logs.
22:06:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, so tell me the details about it?
22:06:30 <AnMaster> because so far I got no clue how it would have worked
22:06:32 <oklopol> AnMaster: tell you the details of an algorithm that's fundamentally broken?
22:06:48 <oklopol> tbh i don't remember anymore.
22:07:09 <oklopol> it was some kind of extension to refcounting.
22:07:17 <oklopol> that tried to detect cycles
22:08:02 <oklopol> but after taking into account every kind of graph that can emerge, it ended up running some sort of mark-unused-things GC everytime you did something to a reference.
22:08:44 <fizzie> I remember being here when that was talked about, and having some serious doubts about the workability of it all.
22:08:50 <AnMaster> FreeNode-#esoteric.log.bz2:sep 03 22:45:23 <oklopol> Last week, Chris Lattner — who manages the Clang, LLVM, and GCC groups at Apple — announced that work was well underway to bring ‘blocks’ to the GCC and Clang compilers. ‘So what?’, I hear you ask, ‘My kid has been using blocks since he was 9 months old.’ Fair point, but maybe not these blocks.
22:09:09 <oklopol> yeah i remember lolling at that
22:09:29 <oklopol> fizzie: yeah, that was a pretty bad idea.
22:09:29 <AnMaster> FreeNode-#esoteric.log.bz2:sep 25 23:25:56 <oklofok> aaaanyway, this is kinda like connected components, you can do it for the whole graph in O(n) (the GC approach), or find the connected component of every node separately in O(n^2) (the refcounting thing); it's just the latter will actually be closer to O(n) if there are only a few references that cannot be "optimized", and you more easily can do
22:09:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: Try 2008-09-26; "rootrefcount" is a good word to grep for.
22:10:12 <oklopol> yeah i had some idea for optimizing the amount of things you need to check.
22:10:22 <oklopol> that was fundamentally wrong, because you could always get around it.
22:11:26 <AnMaster> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p466532445.txt ?
22:12:04 <oklopol> so, basically, i tell you about one of my rare sucky ideas, and you dig it up and throw it in my face? :P
22:12:38 <oklopol> i've had tons of great ideas, much more of those, have i mentioned GRAPHICA THIS WEEK YET, GRAPHICA IS PRETTY COOL
22:12:45 <AnMaster> bah I fail at IRC and listening to radio at the same time
22:13:17 <oklopol> i'm doing nothing but ircing
22:13:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: whatever you do, don't start chewing gum
22:13:27 <fizzie> No, you haven't mentioned graphica this week.
22:13:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: not being able to do things while chewing gum is sort of a meme
22:13:53 <oklopol> ais523: recall you mentioning more languages should have prolog-like returns
22:14:10 <oklopol> if you remember the example where i parsed brainfuck using graphica 2.0, that used those
22:14:13 <ais523_> it's so nice for functions to work backwards as well as forwards as son as you right them
22:14:25 <oklopol> you can give a variable as an argument with syntax ?x
22:14:44 <oklopol> (incidentally saw that used later in another language, although just as a comment to notate which are usually returns)
22:14:54 <oklopol> and you can bind them in the nodes
22:15:48 <oklopol> graphica is fun to use for parsing, because you're very explicitly building a tree. that's really all you can do in the language :P
22:16:05 <oklopol> (2.0 doesn't let you rewrite the graph yet, just adds more computational power for building it.)
22:16:46 <oklopol> and two shorthand syntaxes, one based on eodermdrome, one based on predicate logic.
22:17:17 <fizzie> C# has a funny syntax where "nullable" -- a bit like the Haskell "Maybe" type -- primitive types are declared like "int? x;". It's a (arguably) reasonable syntax, but for a C programmer it just looks a bit... weird.
22:17:43 <fizzie> Like the programmer was saying "well, maybe an integer, I guess... not quite sure. what do you think?"
22:17:49 <oklopol> that sounds like a nice practical addition
22:18:09 <oklopol> i like the syntax, and yeah, that's what it looks like :P
22:19:20 <fizzie> Then you need to check for x.HasValue and use x.Value when you want to actually use it. I think. There might have been some form of auto-boxing/unboxing thing. I'm not a C# person.
22:20:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is meant for talking with SQL iirc
22:20:59 <fizzie> Well, it's not exclusively for that, but I'm sure they've been thinking databases when inventing that one.
22:24:45 * oerjan realizes the word "eodermdrome" itself is a eulerian cycle on K5
22:25:40 <ais523_> in fact I came up with the whole idea for the lang after seeing the word
22:26:01 <ais523_> it means "a word which is a eulerian cycle on a nonplanar graph"
22:26:17 <ais523_> and was coined to produce an 11-character example of that, as no real words did that
22:28:04 <ais523_> (there are real words which are eodermdromes, but all of them are longer than 11 chars)
22:29:35 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you define a graph in that word?
22:29:43 * ais523_ is disappointed that anagolf doesn't have INTERCAL as a language
22:30:11 <ais523_> AnMaster: it has vertices e, o, d, r, m, and arcs from e to o, o to d, d to e, e to r, and so on
22:30:30 <ais523_> I might do some time when he's online
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22:31:08 <ais523_> online atm, but hasn't nickserv-identified for 11 weeks
22:31:49 <oerjan> that's long enough that someone else could take the nick
22:32:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, not if a client is connected
22:32:12 <AnMaster> since you need to take the nick first
22:32:22 <oerjan> well they could if he disconnects
22:32:22 <ais523_> you'd have to somehow kill the old nick to be able to take the nick to identify
22:35:24 <fizzie> My nickname is the K1,3 (also called The Claw, although maybe without the definite article and the capitalization) if you ignore the zz-loop.
22:35:47 <ais523_> or 6-chain with the underscore
22:38:02 <ais523_> going for a while, will be back soon
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22:43:35 <fizzie> Well, according to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome it's actually lowercase-only; but feel free to use any definition.
22:44:28 <fizzie> Lowercased, it's a triangle with a 4-path hanging from one node.
22:44:57 <fizzie> "anma" is a triangle, and then the "aster" part is just the path.
22:45:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, well this is the correct caseing
22:45:23 <fizzie> So ----<| pretty much.
22:46:12 <fizzie> While I'm a \|/ if you don't allow for loops.
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22:47:04 <AnMaster> what does hello world look like in that Eodermdrome? As far as I understood it got output?
22:47:05 <ais523_> who here is it that has trouble coming up with names for esolang projects?
22:47:20 <ais523_> AnMaster: yes, it does, but any nontrivial Eodermdrome program is very hard to write
22:47:51 <ais523_> AnMaster: I can't remember if you can output multiple characters at once
22:47:57 <ais523_> if you can't it's difficult
22:48:02 <fizzie> According to the page you can.
22:48:05 <ais523_> due to needing things to happen in the right order
22:48:11 <fizzie> Since it's an "output string", not a character.
22:48:21 <ais523_> couldn't remember if I put it online
22:49:04 <ais523_> thequickbrownfoxjumpsoverthelazydog (Hello, world!) a
22:49:29 <ais523_> anyway, I came up with a good name for nothing in particular
22:49:39 <ais523_> and wondered if anyone wanted it for a project
22:50:25 <ais523_> oklopol: "ceci n'est pas un acronyme récursif"
22:50:48 <oklopol> this isn't a recursive acronym?
22:59:41 <fizzie> Huh, there's no Eodermdrome implementation?
23:05:45 <ais523_> fizzie: oklopol wrote one I think
23:06:05 <ais523_> oklopol: and yes, "this is not a recursive acronym"
23:06:43 <AnMaster> ais523, hm but it isn't is it?
23:10:14 <ais523_> it refers to itself using "ceci", that's not acronymising
23:10:17 <ais523_> so it's completely correct
23:10:40 <AnMaster> it would be so much more ironic then
23:11:46 <ais523_> yes, but I don't know enough French to get that to work
23:11:54 <ais523_> Slereah: is there any way to get it to work?
23:12:53 <oerjan> "cnepuar n'est pas un acronyme récursif", i presume
23:12:56 <Asztal> "cnepuar n'est pas un acronyme récursif" works, no?
23:13:56 <oklopol> fizzie: well i've implemented eodermdrome
23:14:06 <oklopol> at least to the point where i could finish it trivially
23:14:13 <oklopol> i have all the logic there
23:14:14 <oerjan> not sure if "est" is considered an independent word...
23:14:45 <ais523_> oerjan: well, it's close enough I suspect
23:14:59 <ais523_> I wanted to get ceci n'est pas in there somehow, but I suppose it still works...
23:15:12 <oerjan> ais523_: you are aware that subgraph isomorphism is NP-complete?
23:15:45 <ais523_> oerjan: that just means it's inefficient, not noncomputable
23:15:47 <oerjan> so implementation is not going to be entirely efficient in theory
23:15:53 <ais523_> but it would explain how hard it was to write...
23:16:06 <oklopol> it was pretty simple to write imo
23:16:43 <oklopol> i didn't aim at anything more than a few simple local optimizations though
23:18:10 <oklopol> just that i start with nodes that have a lot of connections; anyway, the point is np-complete matching isn't an issue in practise, because most matchings will probably be quite simple
23:18:58 <fizzie> There's a lot of research on isomorphism testing, and I think also reasonably efficient (for small-ish graphs, anyway) algorithms too.
23:20:38 <oerjan> maybe it's not a problem since the subgraph cannot have more than 26 nodes...
23:22:27 <AnMaster> how do you prove a program "formally correct"
23:22:33 <AnMaster> I don't understand how that works
23:26:13 <fizzie> Either much in the same way you'd prove that an algorithm works (given the semantics of the language, do the necessary deductions and see that it actually does what you want), or alternatively with some exhaustive model checking.
23:26:35 <fizzie> Although I guess "with difficulty" would've been an appropriate answer too.
23:26:41 <AnMaster> I suspect it would be extremely hard
23:27:11 <fizzie> Not really, no. Well, not with any automation support, anyway, and not without formally defining what C does.
23:30:12 <fizzie> I mean, there are no tools (that I know of) that would help you automate the formal verification process for C programs. And the C standard isn't really written as a formal definition that you could do mathematical reasoning with.
23:32:08 <oklopol> you can prove your algorithm to be correct, and then make sure the program carries out the steps of the algorithm
23:32:35 <oklopol> proving something directly from the c program sounds like a harder job
23:33:53 <oklopol> pointers make it harder to prove things because you lose locality.
23:34:12 <fizzie> Then you just need to prove things about where the pointers can possibly point to.
23:34:27 <oklopol> which sounds like fun, btw
23:34:38 <fizzie> Model checking is a fancy thing too, except a bit limited; that one is based on exhaustively (but in a reasonably smart way) searching all possible states the program can be in, and making sure the invariants and such you care about hold everywhere.
23:35:08 <fizzie> I've done a bit of that with PROMELA -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promela -- for one course.
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23:36:03 <oklopol> hope we have something like that in turku
23:36:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: A city in Finland.
23:36:30 <oklopol> it seems the menu is a bit limited though :|
23:36:31 <fizzie> A city with a university, more to the point.
23:37:01 <oklopol> "the city where i go to university" is what you need for context
23:37:14 <oklopol> but that was probably obvious
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23:38:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, is it a programming language or a tool for working on programs written other languages?
23:39:09 <fizzie> Promela is a language, Spin is the model checking tool for Promela programs.
23:39:55 <fizzie> Although typically Promela is just used to prove that the protocol or whatever you are interested in is deadlock-free and stuff; I don't think people actually use that for implementing things.
23:40:08 <fizzie> (Which makes implementation bugs again a possibility.)
23:40:51 <fizzie> I think so, yes. Not quite sure, though.
23:41:26 <AnMaster> however not useful for the languages I program in
23:42:51 <fizzie> It would probably be very difficult to do exhaustive model checking for C either; Promela is designed so that you hopefully don't end up with a horrible amount of possible program states.
23:43:48 <fizzie> Promela/Spin quite easily chokes on "too large state-space to exhaustively search" issues anyway.
23:44:49 <fizzie> For a C program with a unsigned char foo[1024]; in it, there's immediately 2^(1024*CHAR_BIT) potential program states, and it's not very trivial to automatically deduce which states are actually different.
23:45:51 <AnMaster> such as "all these values mean nop"?
23:46:31 <fizzie> That's probably closer to doing logical deductions manually about the program; of course it could help some tool a bit.
23:46:53 <oklopol> fizzie: well you could do that lazily, only branch in the proof where those cells are actually used for something
23:47:03 <oklopol> doesn't help with the underlying problem ofc
23:47:51 <fizzie> Promela has some "let the programmer help the tool a bit" features too; things like marking some instructions to be performed atomically, because otherwise it needs to think about all the possible ways those instructions can be scheduled with different threads.
23:50:46 <fizzie> Our Promela/Spin stuff was for the "Parallel and Distributed Systems" course here; but they tend to change the course contents every year.
23:52:31 <fizzie> oklopol: If you're talking about UTU, quick googling says there's DTEK8028 "System Verification and Design for Testability" -- but they might not talk too much about formal verification. You people seem to have quite little information about your courses in the interwebs; or I might not be looking at the right places.
23:52:58 <oklopol> you can find a bit more in the study guide though, or what's it called again
23:53:15 <fizzie> That's still something like a single paragraph.
23:53:36 <oklopol> you have a decent amount of information about courses?
23:53:58 <fizzie> Well, around here (HUT) there's a lot of material but it's all distributed quite randomly around the web pages of the departments; each of which is arranged differently.
23:54:33 <fizzie> Although for next year there is an official ultimatum to move *all* course information into http://noppa.tkk.fi/ -- or at least be linked from there.
23:54:41 <oklopol> i once tried making a parser for the study guide in order to make a DAG of what courses need what as prerequisites
23:55:09 <oklopol> but, in the end i would basically have had to make the graph manually
23:55:23 <fizzie> I think currently that Noppa tool has (for not-currently-active courses) just copies of the data from the study guide book.
23:55:25 <oklopol> because every course says the prerequisites differentle.
23:55:53 <fizzie> From what I've seen, the prerequisites have been more like recommendations.
23:56:17 <oklopol> you mean, from what you've seen at the university, or from utu's study guide?
23:56:24 <oklopol> okay that was a stupid question.
23:57:17 <oklopol> but yeah, that's my experience too
23:57:17 <fizzie> Have to admit that at least the Noppa thing gives a reasonably browseable/searchable list of all our courses.
23:57:41 <oklopol> good for him/her, but that should really be the website's job.
23:58:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, seems to be a mix of English Finnish and Swedish!?
23:59:12 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yeah, theoretically speaking the name of each course should be in Finnish, Swedish and English, but I don't think everyone has bothered to fill in all the fields.
23:59:29 <oklopol> anyway, my goal is to get a degree in math after my cs degree, and that doesn't seem to be possible in utu, so i may have to come to helsinki :o
23:59:39 <fizzie> Oh, and I think the system is designed so that the actual content of the pages can be provided with a single language only.
23:59:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, I saw all three languages at https://noppa.tkk.fi/noppa/kurssit/il/t3050
23:59:50 <oklopol> if that happens, which would be cool, i can make a comparison