00:00:07 <psygnisfive> ehird: indeed, and its a nonsensical question to ask :)
00:00:13 <warrie> ehird: that was more or less settled for me when somebody said we probably perceive colors in the same way.
00:00:19 <ehird> but it's such a -tempting- question to ask
00:00:26 <warrie> I don't think it's nonsensical, but I think it's not well-defined.
00:00:27 <psygnisfive> its a classical philosophical mental experiment
00:00:28 <ehird> i imagine you'd have to work hard NOT thinking about it :P
00:00:48 <oklopol> easy to believe sapif-whorf is false. i mean, if i know some complicated concept, and someone asks me how it works, i'll probably just say "read about it", because it's a big effort to translate anything nontrivial to pretty much any language except predicate logic
00:00:56 <ehird> I'm not sure if it is - "What if you saw what I see as my blue as what I see as my red?"
00:00:59 <oerjan> what if everyone experienced the idea of "what if everyone saw colours different to me - i'd never know" differently? we'd never know
00:00:59 <ehird> THat seems fairly sensical.
00:01:33 <warrie> psygnisfive: when you think of green, one of the things you think of is plants. Do blind people who don't know that plants are green also think of plants when they think of green?
00:01:35 <ehird> psygnisfive: why not?
00:01:51 <warrie> And yes, I did just make a blatant assumption about your brain.
00:01:54 <psygnisfive> warrie: blind people cant think of green, not like we do.
00:02:16 <ehird> psygnisfive: so blind people cannot imagine colour?
00:02:20 <ehird> Can they visualize images like you and I?
00:02:31 <ehird> psygnisfive: Even if they could see and then went blind?
00:02:37 <ehird> They lose their ability to synthesize images in their mind?
00:02:51 <warrie> Blind synaesthetes (that's the word, isn't it) can imagine color, surely.
00:03:21 <psygnisfive> in order to envision any sort of color you need an operating visual cortex
00:03:30 <psygnisfive> specifically, certain subparts of the visual cortex
00:03:38 <ehird> So you can imagine visuals without it but not colours.
00:03:40 <ehird> THE BRAIN MAKES SUCH SENSE
00:03:42 <psygnisfive> some people can get brain damage that makes them color blind
00:04:03 <psygnisfive> not that they see in black and white, as such
00:04:16 <psygnisfive> they just lack any hue information in their cognitive representations
00:04:21 <ehird> I read an article about that
00:04:23 <psygnisfive> other people can lack brightness information
00:04:45 <ehird> psygnisfive: so it's as much grayscale as it is blue, red, etc?
00:04:49 <ehird> i.e. it's none of them?
00:04:52 <ehird> it's just not a component?
00:05:00 <ehird> I really wonder what it looks like for them.
00:05:06 <ehird> But I'll never know unless it happens to me...
00:05:22 <psygnisfive> thats the thing about what we're talking about
00:05:28 <nooga> it's funny that eyes really operate in RGB + brightness
00:05:31 <psygnisfive> thats why the original question is nonsensical
00:05:46 <ehird> Why is the brain so complicated? :\
00:05:58 <warrie> If I went blind due to a cataract, would my ability to think visually be completely unaffected, or enhanced, or something else?
00:06:04 <psygnisfive> it seems like the EXPERIENCE of red is _nothing more than_ the association between some activation patterns in the visual cortex and some activation patterns related to red things
00:06:11 <warrie> nooga: RGB being cones, brightness being rods?
00:06:50 <psygnisfive> what it means to experience red is nothing more than conjuring up associations with red things
00:06:55 <oklopol> i have a pretty separate place to see imagined things in
00:07:00 <nooga> i have problem with my left eye
00:07:01 <psygnisfive> thats why it makes no sense to ask "what if someone experienced colors differently than me?"
00:07:08 <oklopol> also i can think them in the real world somewhere
00:07:11 <warrie> More interestingly, if I were blind from birth due to something wrong with my eyes, would I still have my visual thinking skills?
00:07:12 <nooga> or rather the nerve
00:07:18 <ehird> The visuals you get when closing your eyes and rubbing them a lot.
00:07:24 <ehird> I have a few patterns...
00:07:29 <oklopol> if i'm a bit drunk i can sometimes make them prevent me from seeing behing them
00:07:29 <ehird> Diagonally-ridged squares, repeating...
00:07:35 <ehird> Swirling electricy lightning...
00:07:36 <psygnisfive> the sound sensors of your brain takes over the visual centers
00:07:43 <warrie> psygnisfive: would they be replaced with equivalent tactile thinking skills or something?
00:07:43 <oklopol> (my brain is more controlled when i'm drunk)
00:08:00 <psygnisfive> thats just pressure activating the light sensors in your retina
00:08:10 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Phosphene_artistic_depiction.gif Not like this...
00:08:12 <ehird> It's far more subtle.
00:08:17 <ehird> psygnisfive: Right, but
00:08:18 <psygnisfive> warrie: your audio-processing abilities get better
00:08:21 <ehird> How come I have only like
00:08:24 <ehird> 3-5 patterns in it
00:08:27 <ehird> and they repeat in cycles?
00:08:36 <ehird> Another pattern is randomly coloured dots flickering about,.
00:08:45 <psygnisfive> ehird: who knows. it could just be your brains interpretation of the phosphenes
00:08:55 <psygnisfive> hey if you wanna experience something REALLY weird
00:09:01 <warrie> psygnisfive: I can imagine feeling a solid of revolution just as well as I can imagine seeing one. I don't think I can imagine hearing one, though.
00:09:03 <nooga> i observe something uncommon
00:09:07 <psygnisfive> look all the way to the left as far as you can
00:09:22 <warrie> And touch your eye very gently?
00:09:31 <psygnisfive> then, with your right hand, press the right most part of your right eye, just next to the right side of your right orbit
00:09:52 <warrie> Can my right eye be closed?
00:09:52 <psygnisfive> you can actually see the finger impression
00:09:54 <nooga> i have neurological problem with my left eye's nerve and sometimes i loose vision in that eye, but it happens in a funny way
00:10:14 <psygnisfive> not only that, but the image is in a part of your visual space that you NEVER SEE WITH
00:10:15 <ehird> Lol, that's fun. How's that work?
00:10:15 <nooga> first, i see everyhing a bit more vivid with my left eye
00:10:22 <psygnisfive> ehird: same as pressing your eyes when closed
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00:10:33 <nooga> then i loose color depth
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00:11:11 <nooga> and everything looks like in 16 color palette
00:11:33 <nooga> and then everything is gray and i can see only bright objects
00:11:44 <psygnisfive> press gently against your upper or lower eyelid in various places
00:11:54 <psygnisfive> the imagine in your visual field should shift
00:12:02 <nooga> and then i can see only black&white flickering grain
00:12:04 <oklopol> nooga: so you're an eye-guy
00:12:17 <oklopol> you just had to get labelled huh?
00:12:17 <psygnisfive> not like you've looked in a different direction, but rather like someones put weird lenses over your eyes
00:12:41 <nooga> and then in reverse everything backs to normal
00:12:58 <ehird> psygnisfive: doesn't work for me
00:13:07 <oklopol> psygnisfive: isn't that just my eye moving around?
00:13:07 <nooga> + brain combines that black&white noise with the vision from the right eye
00:13:10 <warrie> How many of you have ever been blind in part of your central vision?
00:13:31 <psygnisfive> just making the image appear in different places on your retina
00:13:39 <oklopol> psygnisfive: well of course it works. but yeah that looks pretty fun
00:13:51 <psygnisfive> the weird part is that the image moves but your eyeball doesnt, so your brain starts going "whoa whoa whoa wtf is all this"
00:14:07 <warrie> That's happened to me at least twice, I think, as part of a migraine.
00:14:19 <ehird> I have never had a migrane. Woo.
00:14:23 <psygnisfive> also interesting, but far more complicated: if you wear glasses that invert your field of vision
00:14:40 <oklopol> invert your field of vision?!?
00:14:43 <psygnisfive> initially you will be disoriented and itll be hard to interact with the world
00:14:57 <psygnisfive> but after a week or so, youll operate normally
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00:15:08 <ehird> psygnisfive: really?
00:15:11 <ehird> how does that work
00:15:16 <warrie> Kind of interesting, covering visual stimuli with the blind spots and seeing how your brain fills it in.
00:15:18 <psygnisfive> not only will your operate normally, but you wont be able to tell anything is off
00:15:35 <oklopol> right, i thought you meant like if someone wears inverting glasses because of some problem with eyes :D
00:15:48 <oklopol> but yeah i talked about that here a while ago
00:15:50 <ehird> psygnisfive: are you sure?
00:15:51 <psygnisfive> ehird: it works because your brain just remaps all the associations
00:15:52 <ehird> i really can't imagine doing that
00:15:53 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure ehird was here
00:15:58 <trave> horizontally AND vertically inverted
00:16:13 <psygnisfive> horiontal, vertical, or a rotation, it doesnt matter
00:16:24 <oklopol> that's not very surprising
00:16:38 <psygnisfive> your brain just remaps the retinal inputs to fit the way it represents space
00:16:47 <psygnisfive> i mean, think about it, they're just wires in your brain
00:16:51 <ehird> psygnisfive: will you see things "the right way" again?
00:17:05 <warrie> I think I read about someone who was colorblind and also had synaesthesia. He saw yellows instead of reds and greens, but there were also some stimuli that caused perception of red and green.
00:17:07 <oklopol> but, what i'd like to know is whether you can learn to do the transition fast
00:17:12 <psygnisfive> i mean, consider this: the image on your retina is ALREADY upside down
00:17:18 <nooga> my wires going from the left eye are fucked up and tend to loose bandwith
00:17:22 <oklopol> say you invert vision everytime things start to look normal
00:17:27 <trave> the surprising idea behind it is just that your brain can eventually rewire itself to automatically respond, without having to cognitavely decide, i want to go up, but i need to point down.
00:17:37 <ehird> psygnisfive: yeah I don't get that... so...
00:17:41 <psygnisfive> also interesting: when you take the glasses OFF
00:17:43 <ehird> is space actually "upside down" to what we see?
00:18:06 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i'm pretty sure you're wrong, have to test that
00:18:25 <psygnisfive> you guys should read some dennett and ramachandran
00:19:29 <psygnisfive> btw ehird: think of the question more like this:
00:19:44 <psygnisfive> you can rotate an imagine on a graph, and say its upside down
00:20:05 <psygnisfive> but what does it mean to rotate the graph itself? it means nothing.
00:20:18 <trave> which came first, the braincell or the galaxy?
00:20:21 <psygnisfive> the graph defines space, so it cant be rotated since rotation is a relation with regard to space
00:20:29 <nooga> ehird: world -> lens -> image upside down -> sensor -> invert in brain -> image of the world as it is
00:20:47 <psygnisfive> so there is no "world as it is" in terms of up or down
00:21:05 <ehird> TOMORROW: More brain fuckery.
00:21:07 <psygnisfive> and the brain only cares about the topological relations
00:21:53 <trave> have you seen those side-by photo comparisons between galaxies and braincells? they are like 2 peas in a pod.
00:22:04 <ehird> trave: it's just happy coincidence
00:22:51 <ehird> bye, see you all tomorrow
00:23:20 <nooga> i saw a fractal that looked exactly like nebula
00:23:50 <warrie> I was going to say that I can no longer think of a mathematical formula (as in those things they teach you individually in math class) that I can't visualize, but then I realize I've never really tried to visualize d(h/l) = (ldh - hdl)/l^2.
00:25:35 <oklopol> trave: i haven't seen link
00:25:53 <oklopol> warrie: stop with the calculus, calculus is borign
00:26:54 -!- trave_ has joined.
00:27:28 <oklopol> trave_: i haven't seen <insert some kinda pausing character> link
00:28:00 -!- trave has quit (Nick collision from services.).
00:28:07 -!- trave_ has changed nick to trave.
00:28:19 <trave> oh, i'll go see if i can track it down, one sec
00:28:45 <warrie> nooga: like http://www.superliminal.com/fractals/bbrot/island200.500.1000bb.jpg?
00:29:44 <trave> http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/pc/neuron-galaxy.jpg
00:30:54 <warrie> trave: the main similarity is that there are stringy things with clumps along them.
00:31:49 <oklopol> warrie: OR we're just part of some larger guy's brain?
00:31:53 <trave> everything down to the atomic level has way more gaps between "things" than there are things.
00:32:00 <nooga> warrie: not that one
00:32:32 <nooga> warrie: but quite simmilar
00:32:38 <warrie> oklopol: I don't think brain particles slowly drift toward other brain particles due to gravity. :-)
00:33:50 <nooga> every object has a gravity field
00:33:55 <oklopol> warrie: no, the interactions are faster. this guy thinks very slowly.
00:34:34 <oklopol> you know, actually we die because our brain collapses into singularity when we grow old.
00:34:46 <warrie> nooga: yes, but intracranial gravity is overwhelmed by electromagnetic noise.
00:36:14 * warrie ponders gravity at small scales
00:36:58 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3AmC9tNDro
00:37:11 <nooga> "Pickover attractor 10 mln vertices 30 FPS
00:37:14 <warrie> I've decided that at small scales, in a liquid, gravity is equivalent to the pressure gradient it causes.
00:37:39 <nooga> i wonder on what machine
00:40:13 <nooga> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
00:40:48 <nooga> i guess i'll just fall asleep immediately
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00:47:15 <trave> have they fixed the LHC yet? when are they gonna collide me some particles?
00:47:31 <psygnisfive> they're going to do their first collision early sprinh 09
00:47:51 <trave> that leak was a huge setback
00:48:39 <psygnisfive> i mean, if containment fails during a run, thats really bad
00:49:03 <trave> in attempt to prevent other crazies like that girl who committed suicide cause she thought we were all going to be sucked into its black hole?
00:49:22 <psygnisfive> im in support of people killing themselves if they're that stupid
00:49:34 <psygnisfive> hopefully she did this before she had little baby idiots, yes?
00:50:06 <trave> geez, why not just wait until IT kills you, sheesh
00:50:44 <psygnisfive> i mean, obviously SHE was stupid and didnt think about that
00:51:12 <psygnisfive> bbut if she knew why black holes were fucked up, it makes more sense to kill yourself now than be sucked into one
00:51:23 <psygnisfive> but if you understood that much about black holes, you wouldn't be worried about the LHC.
00:51:29 <trave> I personally think that the transition into a black hole is without effect to the one experiencing it
00:51:53 <psygnisfive> in the coolest way imaginable. but also the most horrifying.
00:52:04 <trave> its the observer who witnesses the "death"
00:52:22 <psygnisfive> the observer probably never would witness it
00:52:31 <psygnisfive> http://fora.tv/2008/02/19/Neil_DeGrasse_Tyson_Death_by_Black_Hole
00:52:41 <trave> hm, just making outlandish assumptions :]
00:52:52 <trave> (in reference to me)
00:53:02 <psygnisfive> you're also not familiar with relativity ;)
00:53:32 <psygnisfive> time slows down with greater gravitational effects. so from the outside, someone closer to the black hole moves slower
00:54:47 <trave> well if the point of relevance is my conscious, perhaps the matter around me being visually stretched into oblivion to an outside observer is painless?
00:55:14 <psygnisfive> but you'd be stretched to oblivion along with it
00:57:08 <psygnisfive> this guy, tyson, is like an astrophysics popstar
00:57:17 <trave> i just dont particularly believe that black holes are as destructive as they are labeled, there is one at the center of every galaxy. :D
00:57:46 <trave> its a creative force via its "destructive" nature.
00:57:55 <psygnisfive> destructive as they're labeled by COMMON FOLK
00:58:23 <psygnisfive> because the commonfolk think that black holes will just suck anything and everything in to them period end of story
00:58:50 <trave> i guess myself being a simple minded individual, i likely relate to that level of thought
00:58:50 <psygnisfive> that the sun is going to be compressed into a black hole
00:59:03 <psygnisfive> and say omg we have to stop it, the earth will get sucked in and we'll all die!
00:59:17 <psygnisfive> whereas a physicist would say, omg we have to stop it, the earth will freeze over without the heat from the sun
00:59:32 <psygnisfive> because the physicist knows that the gravity from the sun-cum-blackhole would be unchanged
00:59:46 <psygnisfive> whereas the lay person things that the gravity will all of the sudden because infinitely unstoppable
01:00:56 <psygnisfive> this is why people are worried about black holes at the LHC
01:01:21 <psygnisfive> they think that the moment you create a black whole of ANY size, whoomf, everything gets sucked in
01:05:18 <psygnisfive> also, i just messaged him on facebook asking him about whether or not naked singularities were blackholes or not
01:06:15 <trave> cool. :] Ive run across one of his videos before, forget what it was about though
01:07:32 <trave> this asteroid scenario hes talking about is creepy :D
01:10:54 <trave> what are your thoughts on illuminati/skull and bones type brotherhoods?
01:10:55 <psygnisfive> "peeps... if you're over 30... means people.. forgive me"
01:15:12 <oklopol> i've been unproductive all week :<
01:17:23 <trave> its a holiday week
01:17:52 <oklopol> holidays make really no diff to me
01:18:08 <oklopol> i don't go to lectures that regularly
01:18:21 <trave> me either, other than an additional reason for my laziness
01:19:04 <oklopol> holidays are no excuse not to study
01:19:28 <trave> its true, i just look for excuses
01:19:50 <oklopol> yeah i guess that's pretty common
01:20:04 <oklopol> in fact, i only said that because i wanted you to tell me you're doing nothing productive either.
01:21:06 <oklopol> i've recently been pretty scared by the fact i'm probably not the worlds best at everything i'm good at.
01:21:35 <oklopol> that's a very scary thought
01:21:43 <oklopol> that there's a human being out there that owns me.
01:21:55 <trave> everyone has nitches of talents, i think its more important to learn how to leverage on eachothers strengths, instead of everyone trying to perform as one man bands
01:22:37 <trave> the ones that own us are the bankers via our bank account balances
01:22:58 <oklopol> trave: no no you got it all wrong, life is all about being the superior individual averaged over relevant talents for some definition of relevant.
01:23:10 <trave> and how easilly willing we are to agree to wildly unfair fees and rates
01:25:10 <trave> i am innerly accutely aware of my pwndness, but outwardly have to present myself to my boss as one who pwns
01:25:41 <trave> talent is highly bound to time.
01:26:20 <trave> but time and effort are ruled by interest and entertainment
01:26:26 <oklopol> pwnage inside a small group like a company is trivial, the hard part is being better than all the savants with some kinda mental issues out there.
01:27:44 <trave> i like to imagine that after death, existing as higher conciousness, we are able to process some crazy statistics on history
01:28:19 <oklopol> i envisioned something like that as a kid
01:28:22 <trave> there will be like a ubergoogle, that you can type: who got laid by the most chicks with freckles
01:28:59 <oklopol> i've only been laid by a few chicks with freckles :|
01:29:17 <oklopol> trave: are you by any chance a girl with freckles?
01:29:40 <oklopol> for a second there i had a great idea
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01:30:26 <trave_> man, my wireless routers signal is so weak
01:30:29 <oklopol> you were the one that came in today for some other meaning of "esoteric"?
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01:31:37 <oklopol> i have a pretty good memory for nicks, but it's somewhat vague for new ones.
01:31:56 <oklopol> actually a better memory for nicks than real names
01:32:58 <oklopol> have you ever had like a math course
01:33:19 <oklopol> where something was told without a clear definition, and then there's a question about it that's trivial, and just requires a formal proof.
01:33:36 <oklopol> but you can't be formal, because that part wasn't given a formal definition
01:34:27 <oklopol> (or at least you hadn't read the materials that well, and are pretty sure there wasn't a good definition somewhere!)
01:35:41 <trave> my level of math was highschool algebra
01:35:52 <oklopol> i hate proving trivial things, seems like such a waste to do the manual labor of finding a proof in the language the problem is given in, when my intuitive gadgets are clearly superior
01:38:08 <oklopol> trave: mine is that plus some additional calculus, incidetally calculus is so uninteresting i don't really care for knowing it.
01:39:40 <oklopol> i'm running out of random things to say
01:39:51 <oklopol> probably should retry sleeping or program something
01:40:28 <trave> is calc mainly for like statistical processing? im not even really aware of all the different types besides geometry
01:41:20 <trave> its like ways of finding out levels of force needed to push a block over another block, an junk?
01:41:23 <oklopol> well actually analysis, which afaiu is a superset of calculus; basically about infinite continuous things.
01:41:45 <oklopol> and what it's for is not a well-formed question
01:42:29 <oklopol> i have no idea about applications for physics
01:42:53 <trave> the complexity of all potentials baffles my mind sometimes to the point where it feels almost pointless because of all the points.
01:42:57 <oklopol> well, i could probably do quite well with intuition, but i don't actually know anything.
01:43:33 <oklopol> also nice use of "point" there
01:44:20 <trave> hrm, like needing to juggle too many balls i guess rather, i need to fine tune my target items for attention, i feel too scattered sometimes that i dont take care of anything instead.
01:44:58 <trave> and chat on IRC all day instead of working :D
01:45:00 <oklopol> are you referring to subjects having too much content to be learnable, or wha
01:45:36 <trave> um just abstractly as always, more really about my lifes responsibilities, like taxes, and insurance and rent, and projects, and etc.
01:46:14 <trave> really there isnt all THAT much, its just laying them out on a scale, and only observing one at a time, instead of being overwhelmed
01:46:56 <oklopol> taxes, insurance and rent take, taken together, about -0.00% of your time.
01:47:18 <oklopol> (negative sign and the floating point representation for emphasis)
01:47:41 <trave> i have a tendency to let things slide because there is too much to do, where instead, regardless of what item i pick up, picking up something is infinitely more productive.
01:48:05 <trave> the beast feeds on negligence
01:48:33 <oklopol> what i do is i don't give a shit if things get done, i just take a random thing and start doing it.
01:48:56 <oklopol> of course only refers to studying and other mental exercise, or some kinda project for the fun of it.
01:49:00 <trave> captialism counts on the public's laziness, to bind them into the "punishing" contract
01:49:08 <oklopol> my life doesn't really contain much of that real stuff
01:49:48 <trave> but im finding it to be more critical to resolve my past neglects before the axe comes down. :]
01:50:32 <trave> which in itself feels pointless, because money is so arbitrary, like this whole bailout fiasco, why do they get bailed out for designing such a self defeating model of commerce?
01:50:32 <oklopol> i don't care about the past/future
01:51:05 <oklopol> trave: hard to say, i don't watch pokemon
01:52:07 <oklopol> anyway, money isn't really something one needs to work for, i mean, the amount of money you get from one month of working will pretty much pay for a whole year.
01:52:13 <trave> i think that there are some deep rooted secret brotherhood methodologies of fear and control of the ignorant
01:53:36 <trave> money is only a frustration in my life, the girl i married burns it, and i am left with the shame of not having enough to pay to my owners
01:53:56 <trave> the men behind the curtains.
01:55:09 <trave> much like a movie director or whatever, they are not the puppets speaking the eloquent lines of verse to the public, they are calling some carefully planned moves in the chess match of world power,
01:55:11 <oklopol> i'm pretty ignorant, and i'm sure as hell controlled by no one.
01:55:36 <oklopol> not being able to pay is not a shame if you have a reason you yourself deem good enough.
01:57:11 <oklopol> applies for anything really, no need to feel something if it's not useful.
01:57:26 <trave> controlling the masses through Gold, Oil, and Drugs, you don't have to imprison the people in physical walls.
01:57:40 <trave> in G.O.D. we trust
01:57:49 <oklopol> i don't know what "controlling the masses" means.
01:58:03 <oklopol> but that's clever, probably a well-known backronym?
01:58:49 <oklopol> anyway, i don't think i'd be "controlled" in any way were i incarcerated.
01:59:07 <oklopol> in fact that would make my life more free, right now i'm controlled by my loose network of friends.
01:59:50 <trave> control over the wallet, stomach, and mind?
02:00:07 <trave> religion is control of the mind
02:00:20 <oklopol> controlling wallet and stomach is only control if you care about those
02:00:21 <trave> not everyone is trapped in that, but MANY i know are. :]
02:00:46 <oklopol> but religious people are idiots, in my eyes they are an artifact of the past.
02:01:23 <oklopol> and while i do care about how much money i have, if i felt i had little money, i would stop caring. just like i like moving around, but if i lost my legs i'd just do more thinking.
02:01:33 <oklopol> ultimately it's only the mind that is needed for happiness.
02:01:55 <oklopol> well, not sure i could do without any IO :o
02:02:07 <oklopol> guess i'm not perfect in that way
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02:03:24 <oklopol> i wish there were more channels i could rant on.
02:03:41 <oklopol> but i just have finnish chans where i wouldn't get kb'd, and those are asleep :|
02:09:45 <trave> ive got a headache and really need to close this laptop. it was a pleasure chatting with you fellas though
02:12:43 <oklopol> maybe you'll even see a short conversation about esolangs if you hang around long enough.
02:12:51 <oklopol> hmm, i'll try sleeping too ->
02:14:01 <oklopol> i just had an epiphany about noprob
02:14:20 <oklopol> i removed probability variables, because they made no sense.
02:14:32 <oklopol> now, all variables have a "probability"
02:14:57 <oklopol> meaning "the portion of models for the 3sat instance where that variable is true"
02:15:13 <oklopol> this, and only this can be used for conditional things
02:15:27 <oklopol> the problem is, when you add new clauses, all probabilities change
02:15:55 <oklopol> but, i could just have prolog's cut, or a similar thing, doesn't really fit the paradigm, but it's very practical, and prology :P
02:16:31 <oklopol> really all it needs to do it fix probabilities.
02:17:30 <oklopol> which will get pretty complicated if you use those variables in further clauses, because other variables will have their probabilities calculated on the probabilities of the fixed variables, instead of the assumed 50% chance for (as yet) undefined variables
02:18:18 <oklopol> probably not making any sense, but i'm pretty sure i have something that works right here, so maybe you'll be seeing specs in like five years from now? may be a bit optimistic
02:18:27 <oklopol> sleep, hopefully no ideas this time ->
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02:20:29 <warrie> Hmph. I just went to the web site of the Triple Nine Society. It said this: "Hey, come and join us! We have smart people, and you're smart enough to join! Oh, wait, you're not 18 or older? Go away."
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02:36:49 <GregorR> Is it made from tree bark?
02:39:16 <psygnisfive> i joke that its called "russian caravan" because they get it from the back Evgeny's town-and-country
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03:34:39 <psygnisfive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ayyPzuHGNU
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04:27:51 <jayCampbell> fresh off the press http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:JayCampbell/smatiny.rb
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04:39:38 <psygnisfive_> is that ive installed it on my grandparents computer and they've been using it for 5 months now without any issues.
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04:50:02 <psygnisfive> observation: natural language is the programming language of the human mind
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04:58:35 <GregorR> That's not an observation.
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05:22:17 <GregorR> Anybody want to help me make an AJAX filesystem for JSMIPS?
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05:58:55 <jayCampbell> maybe permission metadata stored in a yaml dotfile
05:59:26 <jayCampbell> or JSON'd outside the served document root
06:07:01 <GregorR> No permission data necessary.
06:07:08 <GregorR> I just want an entire directory to be readable.
06:11:49 <GregorR> I thought AJAX couldn't read binaries.
06:14:56 <jayCampbell> it will be hard to parse directory listing output from joe random web server (if indexes are even turned on)
06:15:21 <jayCampbell> so you'd want a php, or a file-of-files, or hardcoded paths
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06:20:46 <Asztal> which is why gopher is a better choice!
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13:24:21 <ehird> i really want a nextcube and a bebox.
13:25:02 <ehird> obsolete, awesome technology is... um, awesome.
13:26:25 <ehird> also, i could run the original WorldWideWeb app.
13:26:44 <ehird> i'd need a slick black and white crt for the true experience, though :-P
13:56:36 <nooga> i always liked those green phosphor displays
13:56:48 <nooga> or those simple, orange lcds
13:59:05 <ehird> actually, the only pretty CRT i've ever seen = next to a nextube
13:59:14 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Premier_serveur_Web.jpeg
14:04:12 <nooga> what is that machine?
14:13:22 -!- Asztal has joined.
14:13:41 <ehird> on which the first browser was first coded
14:13:50 <ehird> it's the company steve jobs made when he was fired from apple
14:14:08 <ehird> modern os x is based on NeXTStep with a kinky love affair of other unixes and older macs
14:14:24 <ehird> the comp in that machine is the first web server
14:14:37 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NeXTstation.jpg 'nother one
14:14:47 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NeXTSTEP_desktop.jpg nextstep
14:19:54 <nooga> looks like blackbox
14:20:23 <ehird> it predates blackbox, iirc
14:20:30 <ehird> late 80s - early 90s
14:20:36 <ehird> it does kind of look similar
14:21:44 <ehird> BeOS is also awesome and defunct... it's like the amiga, except modern and better... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BeOS_Desktop.png ... and the bebox: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeBox
14:21:47 <ehird> shame they went defunct
14:21:52 <ehird> their browser's errors were haiku :-)
14:24:27 <nooga> when we were trying to write distributed RTOS we almost copied BeOS API
14:25:02 <ehird> of course, the best computer is the smalltalk-based computer i will one day [not] make ;)
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14:26:04 <nooga> smalltalk based computer? :D
14:26:42 <nooga> how would that look like?
14:26:59 <ehird> nooga: like a computer, i guess :) Smalltalk is basically an OS...
14:27:12 <ehird> just doesn't work well as the only one, obviously, because it's not used for that
14:27:19 <ehird> still, it wouldn't be especially hard
14:27:21 <ehird> and it would be nice
14:36:08 <nooga> but you mean a CPU specially built for smalltalk as a smalltalk computer?
14:36:13 <nooga> or just a smalltalk OS
14:36:26 <ehird> a machine built for smalltalk running a specially-crafted smalltalk OS
14:36:32 <ehird> it would be awesome.
14:36:58 <nooga> FPGA and set to work :D
14:37:16 <ehird> bah, it was awesome until you talked about work
14:43:47 <nooga> what is this whole smalltalk about?
14:59:11 <nooga> ha, running haiku in qemu
15:09:50 <ehird> nooga: smalltalk invented quite a few things and perfected others.
15:10:01 <ehird> it invented model-view-controller in its original GUI
15:10:13 <ehird> it perfected message-sending object orientation, from simula, except way better
15:10:29 <ehird> it perfected a blend of simplistic syntax yet easy to read -
15:10:43 <ehird> syntax on a postcard:
15:11:37 <ehird> nooga: http://web.archive.org/web/20080129122256/http://www.esug.org/whyusesmalltalktoteachoop/smalltalksyntaxonapostcard/
15:11:42 <ehird> [[they reorganized their site :\]]
15:12:09 <ehird> it just about perfected automatic and manual refactoring, and code editing
15:12:11 <ehird> with its object browser
15:12:20 <ehird> it's a great, great language and system
15:13:06 <ehird> nooga: it invented complete access at almost every leve
15:13:15 <ehird> you can view the source to all methods on Object, add them, change them
15:13:21 <ehird> some are optimized out, e.g. ifTrue:/ifFalse:
15:13:25 <ehird> and some have <primitive> in them
15:13:28 <ehird> but that's very few
15:16:19 <nooga> that example is undecipherable
15:16:45 <ehird> nooga: that example isn't meaningful
15:16:48 <ehird> it's just all the syntax
15:16:52 <ehird> the first bit is a comment
15:17:09 <ehird> it's a bit obscure because it's not very useful :-P
15:17:15 <ehird> the point is, tohugh
15:17:19 <ehird> that that is -all- the smalltalk syntax
15:17:23 <ehird> except for special stuff like primitives
15:19:37 <nooga> Squeak is developed by Disney
15:24:04 <ehird> its an open source thing now
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15:25:56 <ehird> the default gui is ugly.
15:25:59 <ehird> it can be improved massively.
15:26:11 <nooga> i read about smalltalk and it's features
15:26:26 <nooga> and it turns out that ruby has almost all of them too
15:26:33 <ehird> not the important ones
15:26:39 <ehird> it basically borrows some of the object model
15:26:56 <ehird> but it does not have the complete object garden or the immensely powerful environment
15:27:02 <ehird> or, indeed, a lot of the elegance
15:27:06 <ehird> since ruby is a lot more "normal"
15:27:37 <ehird> i like ruby. but it can't touch smalltalk
15:30:42 <ehird> modern smalltalk is a bit of a walled garden, but it's ok
15:30:54 <ehird> you can access the network and the filesystem, maybe even hook up to devices
15:30:58 <ehird> from there you can basically import stuff in
15:31:17 <ehird> right now i'm deciding what the best way is to get smalltalk to call a block on incoming mail
15:31:26 <ehird> prolly something with comsatd
15:34:03 <nooga> is smalltalk needed in the industry?
15:34:55 <ehird> like what? it is used quite a lot by companies, esp. in the financial industry for some reaosn
15:35:02 <ehird> and it's resurging in popularity a bit
15:35:12 <ehird> quite a bit thanks to the seaside continuation web framework - http://seaside.st
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15:44:32 <nooga> leeks very web2.0-ish
15:45:05 <ehird> just the site does
15:45:37 <ehird> it basically came from deliberately doing the opposite of everyone else: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaside_(software)#Philosophy_of_Seaside
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15:53:37 <Slereah_> CAPSLOCK IS CRUISECONTROL FOR COOL
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16:49:35 <Slereah_> The Orc manual has BNF syntax.
16:50:21 <Slereah_> String: "orc", "ceci n'est pas une |"
16:57:05 <GregorR> Admittedly, 'ls' isn't the most impressive of utilities ...
16:58:27 <GregorR> Next step: bash. Then ... THE WORLD
16:59:10 <Slereah_> What, even that really smelly country?
17:00:00 <GregorR> Psssst ... this is where you're supposed to say "You know the one I mean."
17:00:31 <Slereah_> Only if I was a nerd quoting Futurama!
17:02:26 <GregorR> ehird: Not uploaded yet X-P
17:02:27 <ehird> for everyone else: http://codu.org/jsmips//
17:02:40 <ehird> hey GregorR, does it run plan9 yet????
17:02:53 <GregorR> JSMIPS IS AN OS IT DOES NOT RUN OSES *slap*
17:03:03 <ehird> GregorR it is not a good os it needs plan 9 power.
17:03:22 <ehird> btw, does backspace work yet
17:03:50 * ehird forkbombs his browser.
17:05:02 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, but so's your face.
17:05:11 <GregorR> Yeah, but so's your MOM'S face.
17:05:14 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, but so's your face.
17:05:23 <GregorR> Yeah, but so's your MOM'S MOM'S face.
17:05:29 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, but so's your DAD'S face.
17:05:39 <GregorR> Yeah, but so's your MOM'S MOM'S MOM'S face.
17:05:46 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, but so's your DAD'S MOM'S DAD'S face.
17:06:04 <GregorR> My dad's mom's dad is dead D'8
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17:06:27 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, but so's your face.
17:06:57 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, but so's your face.
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17:25:47 <ehird> i said that in ##nomic.
17:29:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, nice work on jsmips, yes I know it isn't an emulator, but an OS emulator rather
17:29:18 <AnMaster> as in emulating a linux(?) system on MIPS
17:29:45 <GregorR> It's emulating the MIPS chip, just not a full MIPS system.
17:29:47 <AnMaster> GregorR, so the goal is to to run any linux binaries for MIPS?
17:30:01 <GregorR> Just vaguely UNIXish programs compiled for JSMIPS.
17:30:19 <AnMaster> GregorR, oh not real mips binaries?
17:30:27 <GregorR> Real MIPS binaries for a fake MIPS system.
17:30:29 <AnMaster> also what is the compiler you use?
17:30:59 <ehird> GregorR: nice monologue
17:31:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, what about porting wget to it?
17:31:11 <AnMaster> or is network stack too hard in js?
17:31:25 <GregorR> A true network stack would be impossible.
17:31:33 <GregorR> (Seeing as that JS can't network)
17:31:38 <GregorR> I was planning on making an ajax.h
17:31:53 <GregorR> 'ts about the best I can do network-wise.
17:31:56 <AnMaster> GregorR, can't you run javascript free standing?
17:31:58 <GregorR> Networked apps really aren't my goal :P
17:32:04 <ehird> GregorR: you can do proper network stacks
17:32:11 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure there is some such thing
17:32:12 <ehird> make it ajax to a proxy php script
17:32:14 <GregorR> Yeah, but I don't know if such implementations have (compatible) network stacks.
17:32:16 <ehird> that does proper tcp/ucp
17:32:20 <ehird> and uuencode stuff either way
17:32:26 <ehird> you could run irssi
17:32:47 <GregorR> ehird: Yeah, I'll be running Firefox in JS any day now :P
17:32:50 <AnMaster> GregorR, also what did ehird said? he is on ignore
17:33:06 <GregorR> AnMaster: You're on his /ignore too, enjoy this disjunct discourse.
17:33:07 <ehird> GregorR: YES YOU WILL
17:33:24 <ehird> AnMaster is a fat stinky poo poo who cannot see this
17:33:28 <ehird> ^ 1337 h4x0r skillz
17:33:35 <ehird> oklopol: what do you mean, cheesecake?
17:33:35 <AnMaster> GregorR, so what was the issue then?
17:35:14 <AnMaster> tried at http://codu.org/jsmips/sh.html
17:35:30 <GregorR> AnMaster: I haven't pushed my most recent changes, they're a bit ... complicated and far-reaching :P
17:35:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, what is wrong with making that public?
17:36:28 <GregorR> AnMaster: Nothing, it'll just take me a few minutes and I'm lazy ;)
17:46:25 <GregorR> http://codu.org/jsmips/system.html
17:49:10 <GregorR> (BTW, the long load time when you first load up the page and when you firs type 'ls' is the AJAX more than the actual software)
17:50:28 <ehird> unsupported syscall 59
17:50:44 <ehird> GregorR: totally rad.
17:51:02 <GregorR> What did you do to get that?
17:51:09 <ehird> Pressed "start mips".
17:51:17 <ehird> It seems to be working now.
17:51:24 <ehird> With some unimplemented syscall stuff.
17:52:18 <ehird> GregorR: Wow, "bin/sh" works.
17:52:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, not my fault, rather that of the page
17:52:45 <AnMaster> you can't copy paste the output
17:52:47 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yeah, I'm forced to keep focus on an invisible input element ...
17:53:03 <GregorR> AnMaster: You can get it by clicking on the text box "full-line input for ..."
17:53:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, anyway I get a unimplemented syscall and then mips exited
17:53:41 <GregorR> AnMaster: OK, copy the output using the trick I just said :P
17:53:47 <AnMaster> Unsupported syscall 59 at 4204784
17:54:16 <fizzie> Maybe it's just a script reloading issue?
17:54:37 <AnMaster> Unimplemented syscall: sigaltstack
17:54:37 <AnMaster> sigaltstack(2) failed with: Not supported
17:54:37 <AnMaster> Unimplemented syscall: tcgetattr
17:55:09 <ehird> http://codu.org/jsmips/server/dir.php im in ur code, looking at yer code
17:55:22 <GregorR> ehird: You realize that JS code is generated, right?
17:55:33 <GregorR> AnMaster: I'm well aware :P
17:55:43 <ehird> http://codu.org/jsmips/server/dir.php?f=./bin/sh
17:55:49 <ehird> /4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAHQ
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17:56:14 <GregorR> AnMaster: It allows access via AJAX to the JSMIPS filesystem.
17:56:53 <GregorR> jayCampbell: Only because I used the simplest solution possible :P
17:57:09 <GregorR> AnMaster: Even when I implement rm, you won't be able to remove things from the server :P
17:57:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, odd set doesn't list PATH=/bin
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17:58:30 <AnMaster> since it doesn't accept export FOO=bar
17:58:51 <AnMaster> haven't seen a sh like that for long
17:59:20 <GregorR> Easier to compile on wonko systems ;)
17:59:36 <GregorR> I made bash compile but it doesn't run >_O
17:59:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, I hope this will become POSIX.1-2008 certified some day ;)
18:00:05 <AnMaster> GregorR, why is there no libc btw?
18:00:23 <GregorR> I didn't want to write a DYNAMIC ELF loader in JS :P
18:00:28 <AnMaster> GregorR, is the server side source of it public?
18:00:56 <GregorR> https://codu.org/projects/jsmips/hg/
18:01:05 <jayCampbell> as a data point, this is firefox on XP running system.html:
18:01:26 <ehird> jayCampbell: This is why middle-button pasting is retarded.
18:01:44 <AnMaster> also: middle mouse pasting rocks
18:02:04 <AnMaster> so yes ehird would hate it (he isn't on ignore atm)
18:02:21 <ehird> jayCampbell: That's needed.
18:02:28 <GregorR> If anybody has a solution, that'd rock. I don't have one though :(
18:02:35 <ehird> GregorR: it's not really possible
18:02:39 <ehird> i coded that fancy input
18:02:57 <ehird> that's why it sucks, AnMaster, btw
18:03:04 <ehird> obviously my bad influence
18:03:07 <jayCampbell> system.html in firefox on XP: http://shup.com/Shup/86338/screencap-Mozilla-Firefox-108102710221.png
18:03:12 <ehird> i hate COPYING AND PASTING
18:03:13 <ehird> type it out like a REAL MAN
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18:03:23 <ehird> jayCampbell: yeah and? :P
18:04:01 <ehird> that's expected output.
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18:04:10 <ehird> that's what we all get
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18:05:08 <GregorR> Hey, I've got a solution 8-D
18:05:29 <ehird> GregorR: what is it?
18:05:31 <ehird> i'll tell you why it doesn't work
18:05:40 <GregorR> I just made it focus when you click on the <div>
18:05:46 <GregorR> And it certainly seems to work :P
18:05:49 <ehird> well, that's a boring solution.
18:06:00 <ehird> what about clicking a button
18:06:04 <ehird> you should be able to type right after
18:06:10 <ehird> better solution: unfocus when you click on blank spac
18:06:13 <GregorR> All three buttons cause it to refocus.
18:06:40 <ehird> do i have to implement backspace?
18:06:49 <ehird> and cursor positioning.
18:07:16 <ehird> btw, i just copied the screen easily
18:07:19 <ehird> select screen, edit->copy
18:07:27 <ehird> of course, i doubt AnMaster has any menus
18:07:33 <ehird> being h a r d c o r e
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18:15:58 <AnMaster> right I gave ehird a chance off the ignore and he just insulted again
18:36:16 <ehird> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TMwO9PX4_7c
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18:46:00 <jayCampbell> despite calling it smanity most of the way through development
18:47:41 <GregorR> I just multiplied the number of binaries by ~a gagillion
18:49:34 <GregorR> That is the multiple of binaries :P
18:50:36 <oerjan> from this we deduce gag = log 53 / log 1000 - 1
18:51:03 <ehird> a gag is therefore ~= 0.86
18:51:15 <ehird> unless i messed that up
18:52:32 <oerjan> probably a parsing error :D
18:53:09 <oerjan> GregorR: cats never work
18:53:20 <ehird> oerjan: WE ARE SO CLEVER WE CAME UP WITH THE SAME JOKE
18:53:30 <GregorR> Well that's just not right.
18:53:39 <GregorR> (Note: "Ouch!" is from the factor program, not me :P )
18:53:42 <oerjan> indeed 0 is not a factor of 24
18:53:48 <oerjan> although the reverse is true
18:53:50 <ehird> maybe jsmips lives in an alternate universe
18:53:53 <ehird> where 0 is a factor of 24
18:53:56 <ehird> and so is the number Ouch!
18:54:41 <GregorR> I have no idea why that's happening.
18:55:04 <ehird> 50-something binaries
18:55:08 <ehird> but... huge for javascript
18:55:27 <oerjan> maybe it's scrooge's money bin
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19:51:23 <ais523> get your script to handle netsplits
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20:13:33 <AnMaster> ais523, who were you talking to?
20:18:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: how many people here do you have on ignore? :-P
20:18:38 <Deewiant> So how many people could it be?
20:19:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so yes it could be one of them
20:19:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, I'm only doing it because he keeps insulting me
20:19:53 <AnMaster> and I only started the permanent ignore today
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20:21:05 <AnMaster> iirc he went way way off topic in a bad way a bit ago, I may unignore next week
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20:24:56 <oklopol> not really. that's pretty common
20:25:16 <AnMaster> ah well I didn't mean it in that sense
20:25:24 <AnMaster> but rather the other meaning it has today
20:25:46 <AnMaster> Definitions of bastard on the Web:
20:25:46 <AnMaster> * asshole: insulting terms of address for people who are stupid or irritating or ridiculous
20:25:46 <AnMaster> * the illegitimate offspring of unmarried parents
20:27:31 <oklopol> ohhh i've never heard that before
20:28:01 <AnMaster> oklopol, and I was using it in the first sense
20:28:32 <AnMaster> technically we all got exactly one asshole too :P
20:29:11 <oerjan> somewhere, there's some freak with two, i just know it
20:29:16 <oklopol> we're all just one big asshole if you ask me.
20:29:35 <oerjan> probably worshipped as a god in india, they do such things
20:29:45 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's not that strange, it's pretty common not to know that meaning.
20:29:55 <oklopol> oerjan: well that's just ignorant
20:30:16 <ehird> 12:21:05 <AnMaster> iirc he went way way off topic in a bad way a bit ago, I may unignore next week
20:30:25 <ehird> ^ translation: he made a joke about pedophillia
20:30:38 <ehird> next, oklopol said he had a 13 year old (iirc) girlfriend at one point, not-jokingly
20:30:40 <ehird> no ignore was brought
20:30:51 <ehird> being a pedophile is ok, just don't joke about it :D
20:30:54 <oklopol> ehird: well you said it, i didn't mention sex :)
20:31:06 <oklopol> also he didn't believe me.
20:31:20 <ehird> oklopol: well, how could he? pedophiles are physically impossible to exist
20:31:30 <ehird> the only thing you can do with them is joke about them and how they don't exist
20:31:32 <ehird> and that's just despicable
20:32:06 <oklopol> ehird: i guess i sound too sane to be one? not that i would say i'm a pedophile, but anyway.
20:32:23 <ehird> i'm just calling you a pedophile to enhance his perfect point
20:32:40 <oklopol> yes, true, that was my point too, when i said it.
20:33:01 <ehird> oklopol: shut up, pedophile.
20:33:09 <ehird> joking about it isn't
20:33:12 <ehird> got mixed up there
20:35:22 <oklopol> (anyway in my defense, she totally looked 15.)
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20:49:55 <GregorR> (Which is to say, fixed sbrk :P )
20:51:28 <GregorR> ls is ... distressingly slow ...
20:51:48 <ehird> GregorR: i don't think you'll ever surpass molasses
20:52:15 <GregorR> Yeah, but neither will your FACE.
20:57:02 <GregorR> It stats all the effing files :P
20:57:08 <GregorR> stat = load, load = AJAX, AJAX = time.
20:57:39 <GregorR> I guess I should delay loading until there's a read.
20:58:06 <pgimeno> GregorR: watch out for security holes in sbrk, someone could gain root access...
20:58:19 <GregorR> Root access to a simulated machine :P
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21:01:01 <ehird> get all the info once
21:01:05 <ehird> then cache it until it's modified
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21:01:35 <GregorR> Presumably "all the info" != the actual file data :P
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21:03:38 <ehird> GregorR: cache the file data too, you _know_ when it's modified, you can cache everything until the file changes
21:04:17 <GregorR> The file data is the problem ...
21:04:24 <GregorR> There's 12MB of files, it takes a while to download.
21:04:27 <GregorR> I don't want to download them.
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21:07:25 <ehird> GregorR: have two modes
21:07:39 <ehird> don't cache file mode
21:07:41 <ehird> but cache stat mode
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21:17:48 <fizzie> I don't see how download time is related to caching: I mean, it's not like you'd have to *prefetch* things if you cache them. You can just cache stuff you need to download. (Of course it will eat up some memory.)
21:18:04 <GregorR> It's not, I have no idea why ehird is saying what he is :P
21:18:20 <ehird> hitting the server all the time just to stat
21:18:25 <ehird> and keep that stat
21:18:27 <ehird> until the file changes
21:18:42 <fizzie> GregorR: I have no idea why you're saying "I don't want to download them" as an argument against caching file data.
21:18:43 <ehird> the first ls will be slow
21:18:45 <ehird> but the next ones will be fast
21:18:48 <GregorR> I'm hitting the server N times for N files, that's the problem.
21:18:55 <ehird> GregorR: so make a batch mode
21:18:58 <GregorR> First ls is slow, the rest are fast.
21:19:07 <ehird> it doesn't download the WHOLE file does it?
21:19:07 <GregorR> The only problem is that the first ls is REALLY FUCKING SLOW :P
21:19:17 <GregorR> Yes, it downloads the whole file, that's the problem :P
21:19:22 <ehird> GregorR: So add a &stat=1
21:19:27 <ehird> that just returns the stat info
21:19:49 <GregorR> I was just stating the problem, not that it's difficult to solve.
21:19:57 <ehird> the time it's taken yout o tell us
21:20:14 <GregorR> I can't, I'm gonna go gorge myself with turkey and ham now.
21:20:15 <ehird> http://profy.us/2008/11/27/openid-gets-political-support-from-barack-obama/
21:20:46 <GregorR> I thought you were American...?
21:21:38 <ehird> what's me being american got to do with it
21:21:48 <GregorR> In America, today is gorge-yourself-with-turkey day.
21:22:01 <ehird> http://profy.us/2008/11/27/openid-gets-political-support-from-barack-obama/ lol wat
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23:21:15 <AnMaster> GregorR, stat() wouldn't need full download
23:21:24 <AnMaster> it would just need server to extract some info
23:43:06 <ehird> psygnisfive: i wanna try that upside down thing.
23:43:13 <ehird> where you use inversing glasses thingy
23:45:03 <ehird> psygnisfive: Y Y Y Y Y
23:45:04 <psygnisfive> itll be hard to get around the first few days while you adjust
23:45:16 <ehird> psygnisfive: i don't move all that much most of the time
23:45:16 <psygnisfive> it could be dangerous walking around a city or something without an escort
23:45:24 <ehird> then i won't walk around a city
23:45:42 <psygnisfive> ok, well can i have your body when you get killed?
23:46:05 <ehird> I should do it sideways so that I get a tall-screen.
23:46:08 <ehird> instead of a wide-screen
23:48:49 <oklopol> ehird: yeah you should try it. i would've tried it years ago if i had the glasses
23:48:59 <ehird> oklopol: actually you should try it
23:49:01 <oklopol> i don't really feel like making something that complicated myself
23:49:03 <ehird> you'd have no problems
23:49:14 <oklopol> indeed i'd probably learn it in a day.
23:49:29 <ehird> of course you woul
23:49:37 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:49:52 <oklopol> have a goooood night nightity nighties