00:01:15 <oklopol> clearly the b nodes are different
00:01:24 <oklopol> there's no cycle, just an infinite tree
00:01:46 <oklopol> because they correspond to the node b
00:02:25 <psygnisfive> i just recently wrote a 25 page, single spaced paper on a very closely related issue
00:02:27 <oklopol> i don't see why you insist on understanding this
00:03:02 <ehird> no, you're a pedant.
00:03:12 <psygnisfive> i do research into natural language syntax, and syntactic theory
00:03:36 <psygnisfive> and so obviously one of the main ideas in natural language syntax is, ofcourse, syntactic trees
00:03:58 <oklopol> well yes, i know it was about syntactic trees
00:04:23 <oerjan> give us semantic trees
00:04:37 <psygnisfive> some contemporary versions of tree building are ones that employ directed acyclic graphs
00:04:50 <psygnisfive> so that a single node can be dominated by more than one other node
00:05:30 <oklopol> right. haven't heard that term
00:05:38 <psygnisfive> and a dominates b if a->b or if a->c and c dominates b
00:05:48 <psygnisfive> basically, domination is just a path in a DAG
00:06:12 <oklopol> just hadn't heard the term
00:06:17 <psygnisfive> anyway, there are some ideas being thrown around that depend on certain asymmetric relationships between nodes in a tree
00:06:29 <psygnisfive> or rather, asymmetric instances of a relationship
00:06:58 <psygnisfive> and when you have more than one node dominating some other node, these asymmetric relationships are not total
00:07:39 <psygnisfive> but noone seems to notice this because they get caught up in conveniences of notation that conflict with their "formal" definitions
00:07:50 <psygnisfive> ok one of these relationships is called c-command
00:08:22 <psygnisfive> a c-commands b if a and b are sisters, or if b is dominated by a sister of a
00:08:40 <psygnisfive> so a c-commands its sisters and everything below them
00:08:44 <oklopol> oh that kind of relationships
00:08:54 <psygnisfive> yeah. a structural relationship between nodes
00:09:19 <psygnisfive> but imagine if a is simultaneously sister to b, but also dominated by b
00:09:49 <psygnisfive> a and b do /not/ c-command one another, because c-command doesn't apply when one item contains the other
00:10:09 <oklopol> wait that doesn't really work for undirected graphs..
00:10:31 <psygnisfive> well we have the following notation for it
00:11:00 <psygnisfive> where the first item in the brackets is the label for the node that the brackets represents
00:12:04 <psygnisfive> or lets assume that a and b do c-command one another
00:12:45 <psygnisfive> a and b symmetrically c-command one another
00:13:05 <psygnisfive> if only one of x and z directly dominated a, then it wouldn't be symmetric
00:13:33 <oklopol> hmm, actually i'm not sure i understand, wait a sec.
00:14:22 <psygnisfive> the parts that deal with this issue are relatively detached from syntax as a whole and deal with some very specific topics so youll understand it.
00:15:08 <oklopol> i still have a hard time seeing how this could have to do with rooting arbitrary graphs, but i'll try to find time to read it.
00:15:33 <psygnisfive> no, the part that i found deja vu like is that you were representing different nodes with the same symbols
00:16:05 <psygnisfive> and that unless you specify this beforehand, it's not apparent that they're different nodes
00:16:06 <oklopol> i see. it was just sexps really.
00:16:41 <psygnisfive> and one of the reasons that i wrote this paper was because similar things go on in syntax, with precisely the problems that you could expect from having a notation that can be interpreted in different ways.
00:17:07 <psygnisfive> oklopol: http://www.wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/Formalizing%20Minimalism.pdf
00:17:52 <oklopol> usually you'd explain your notation, and not have that problem
00:18:29 <psygnisfive> sort of like it didnt happen when you said b->c->a->b->... was a tree without first saying that each b was a distinct node :P
00:18:51 <oklopol> anyway the reason i wasn't being clear was because i was sure you already understood it.
00:19:14 <psygnisfive> ah well. if you start talking mathy to me, i take everything at face value.
00:19:39 <psygnisfive> actually i do that in generally but its especially typical when talking about these things
00:21:16 <oklopol> being pedantic is always a good thing. i just didn't really feel like being more clear because my whole point was just to tell ehird what he said had definite truth in it, just not the exact truth he said it had.
00:21:37 <oklopol> now i feel i should read it.
00:21:48 <psygnisfive> first you should comment on my site background images
00:22:08 <psygnisfive> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/ http://www.wellnowwhat.net/Rights_in_the_Post-Governance_Society.html http://www.wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/honors_thesis/
00:22:50 <oklopol> psygnisfive: that's pretty awesome
00:24:10 <ehird> psygnisfive: I can generate random colours too
00:24:34 <psygnisfive> they're lines that keep showing up in windows
00:24:34 <oklopol> what page should i start on
00:25:03 <psygnisfive> some drawing glitch in my computer's window manager or something like that
00:25:12 <psygnisfive> oklopol: do you mean for this issue of DAGs and trees and such?
00:25:41 <ehird> eh, I got similar glitches with a driver on x11
00:25:43 <psygnisfive> because they're bound to windows, in that i can drag the windows around and they follow it
00:26:15 <oklopol> of course if that's written by you, i might want to read the whole of it
00:26:26 <oklopol> then again i probably wouldn't understand it.
00:26:46 <oklopol> well yeah that wasn't really an "if", more like a "seeing as"
00:26:47 <psygnisfive> you might get it. its not TOO embedded in syntax, and most of what is i explain for completeness
00:26:55 <ehird> psygnisfive: can you satisfy this amateur typographic fuck by switching to a non-monospaced font?
00:27:24 <psygnisfive> eh.. start on page 11, "Move, Multiple Dominance, and Linearization"
00:27:29 <oklopol> non-monospaced fonts should never be used
00:27:44 <ehird> oklopol: yeah but you don't even read, you just connect objects to your brainwave
00:27:47 <ehird> I use actual eyes and stuff
00:27:49 <psygnisfive> ehird: no. i like the monospacedness. its grungy and gritty and goes nicely with the backgrounds :)
00:28:01 <ehird> psygnisfive: fine, don't expect me to read your site :P
00:28:06 <ehird> how about Curlz MT
00:28:20 <ehird> failing that comic sans could be a good substitute
00:29:00 <oklopol> (non-monospaced fonts should be killed)
00:32:13 <ehird> ais523: http://www.mathrix.org/experimentalAIT/TuringMachine.html
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00:35:09 <oerjan> even people who don't think non-monospaced fonts should be killed often think comic sans should be killed.
00:41:36 <psygnisfive> http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/348-an-imperial-palimpsest-on-polands-electoral-map/
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01:48:35 <oklopol> psygnisfive: this is a fun read
01:49:02 <oklopol> i have no idea what the definitions are useful for, but i like reading them :P
01:53:01 <oklopol> c-commanding mostly, i just started.
01:53:42 <oklopol> most of this is over my head, you constantly refer to basic things i've never heard about
01:53:46 <psygnisfive> ah well, that section is mostly about the implications that using DAGs for syntax trees has for attempts to linearize the nodes in the tree based on c-command
01:55:47 <oklopol> linearize... does that mean ordering?
01:56:09 <psygnisfive> eh.. yes. linearization is taking a graph and finding some total relation over the graph
01:56:56 <psygnisfive> or rather, taking some abstractly /defined/ relation, and finding that relation for some graph
01:57:12 <psygnisfive> because graphs are basically not linearly ordered
01:57:36 <psygnisfive> so if a sentence is a graph, there has to be some unique way of linearizing the words in the graph
01:58:09 <psygnisfive> there can't be any two words that have no relative linearization
01:58:16 <oklopol> i think i had a crucial epiphany
01:58:24 <psygnisfive> every word must either come before or after some other word
01:59:03 <psygnisfive> so if your tree has no inherent directionality, like say a Left-Right tree does, you have to do this linearization some other way
01:59:20 <psygnisfive> and one of the ideas is that you could do this using asymmetric c-command relationships
01:59:33 <oklopol> yeah was just about to ask
01:59:50 <oklopol> (yes, i did just read about it, but i didn't understand what it was about back then)
02:00:15 <psygnisfive> i find that everyone i talk to has to ask what linearization means
02:00:16 <oklopol> suddenly i wanna learn more about this
02:00:28 <psygnisfive> well, i can teach you some syntax if you want :)
02:00:34 <psygnisfive> theres all sorts of shit like this in syntax
02:00:43 <psygnisfive> scope is another really fascinating issue in syntax
02:01:06 <oklopol> well i'm all for learning all the basics at least
02:01:26 <oklopol> except not now of course, it's 4 am.
02:01:35 <psygnisfive> theres honestly not much to learn, in terms of the way the theory works
02:04:25 <oklopol> anyway, what you meant by linearization would've been clear if i'd understood the graph represented a sentence
02:04:57 <oklopol> well. right now it seems like it should've been perfectly clear even without that info
02:05:14 <oklopol> but i'm very tired, and i can just blame that
02:06:09 <psygnisfive> i realize now that I didn't use the word "sentence" until page 19
02:06:25 <psygnisfive> but in the context of syntax, trees = sentences
02:09:08 <oklopol> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02:09:37 <oklopol> i was reading my book you see
02:09:49 <oklopol> and suddenly there were texts.
02:13:43 <psygnisfive> http://www.malegeneral.com/dongs/src/1229957639477.jpg
02:17:37 <Slereah_> Let's see on your fetlife profile
02:17:41 <psygnisfive> actually i have a strong desire to punch people like that in the face
02:17:49 <Slereah_> Maybe "Acting like a douche" is amidst it
02:19:05 <Slereah_> "forced orgasms (tens units, etc.)"
02:19:40 <psygnisfive> tens = transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulator
02:20:19 <Slereah_> Acting like a douche could totally do that
02:21:01 <psygnisfive> it would be humiliating to those you're with.
02:22:05 <oklopol> i'm not sure what kind of person that guy is
02:23:00 <oklopol> i can certainly be humiliating to those i'm with
02:23:21 <Slereah_> But are you more humiliating than psygnisfive, though?
02:23:33 <Slereah_> He'll probably hang with you in his fursuit or something.
02:23:39 <oklopol> for one, i may burst into song in pretty much any situation
02:23:54 <psygnisfive> fursuiters almost always annoy the fuck out of me
02:24:04 <psygnisfive> except for the ones im friends with who are hot
02:24:21 <Slereah_> Do you only want to teabag this "Joe Cool"?
02:24:45 <Slereah_> Also is he the teabagger or the teabaggee?
02:25:44 <Slereah_> I think Joe Cool might be the legendary Cool Dude.
02:25:57 <Slereah_> With the backward cap and the popped collars.
02:26:45 <Slereah_> Joe Cool does have a backward cap!
02:27:22 <Slereah_> Strangely enough, he's not into teabagging Joe Cool
02:27:59 <Slereah_> "It has my name on it, I wonder how it is!"
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04:32:35 <lolbot> There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies and the other is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. -- Charles Anthony Richard Hoare
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09:08:21 <psygnisfive> wow, have there seriously been no comments in the last lik 7 hours?
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09:27:51 <oerjan> <psygnisfive> i certainly do not have a fursuit
09:27:57 <oerjan> neither do i, forsooth
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10:14:01 <AnMaster> (in Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia we celebrate on the 24th)
10:18:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is true for Norway too isn't it?
10:18:48 <AnMaster> I know it is for Sweden and Finland
10:20:23 <AnMaster> Some Finnish xmas song I expect?
10:22:38 <oerjan> ooooooooooo joulu, ooooooooooo joulu
10:23:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, is that Norwegian or Finnish?
10:23:09 <oerjan> definitely not norwegian
10:23:28 <oerjan> åååååååååååå julen, ååååååååååå julen
10:23:38 <oerjan> might work in swedish too?
10:24:27 * AnMaster listens to some classical music, by Grieg
10:25:18 <oerjan> dum dum dum dum dum dum dum, dum dum dum, dum dum dum, dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum DUM
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10:26:37 <oerjan> na na na na na na, na na na na na-na-na-na, na na na na na na na na na na...
10:26:53 <AnMaster> not "I bergakungens sal" (as I believe the original name is? This CD got English titles...)
10:27:36 <AnMaster> so that was a Swedish variant then
10:28:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh also Solveig's song is probably the best piece of music from the Peer Gynt suites.
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11:44:52 <oerjan> ah, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/ has entered into the holiday spirit
11:46:28 <AnMaster> oh and cya, going to visit grandparents, so away for the rest of the day
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13:48:57 <ehird> Stupid weird europeans.
13:49:01 <ehird> And your stupid xmas on today
14:04:14 <ehird> xmas is tomorrow, freak retard.
14:04:29 <ehird> you are an inferior being
14:05:05 <oerjan> technically even here it doesn't start until 5 o'clock iirc
14:05:45 <oerjan> that's when they ring the church bells
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15:35:52 -!- ehird has set topic: It's christmas eve, unless you're a wacky freak-man in one of those weird-ass European countries, in which case it's still Christmas Eve but you're celebrating today.
15:37:11 <ais523> <oklopol> i'm being 100% sarcastic and not sarcastic at the same time. <--- I love this line
15:37:52 <ehird> ais523: sure you do.
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17:45:46 <cpu-jockey> Spec: that's good, since it allows tunneling over P
17:46:14 <ais523|direct> hmm... do we have more new people here, or is cpu-jockey someone I know under a new nick?
17:47:02 <cpu-jockey> i'm thinking about writing a bf interpreter in asm
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17:47:09 <Slereah> Well, it is easy to learn and reasonably easy to use
17:47:38 <oerjan> rainfuck might be interesting as well, in theory
17:47:56 <cpu-jockey> that is, push machine code directly proportinal to input to the stack, and jmp *esp
17:57:06 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->++++>++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<<]>>++.>>++.<+.++++++++.>----.<---.>+++++++.<<---.++++++++.<<.>>--.>--.<<<.>>+.+++.>+++.<----------.
17:58:08 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->++++>++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<<]>>++.>>++.<+.++++++++.>----.<---.>+++++++.<---.++++++++.<<.>>--.>--.<<<.>>+.+++.>+++.<----------.
17:58:23 * oerjan is cursed. CURSED, i tell you
17:58:56 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->++++>++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<<]>>++.>>++.<+.++++++++.>----.<---.>+++++++.<---.++++++++.<<.>>--.>--.<<<.>>+++.+++.>+++.<----------.
17:58:57 <ais523|direct> I managed to get as far as the hello in hello world
17:59:03 <ais523|direct> because I was doing the hello and the world differently
17:59:21 <ais523|direct> (pointers to heap work atm, pointers to stack do I think but can't be used due to a different bug)
18:09:03 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[->++++>+<<]>+>[++++++++<.>]
18:09:04 <fungot> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
18:28:32 <oerjan> ^bf +[,.]!Hello, world!
18:30:34 <fungot> ve old input from somewhere
18:30:43 <cpu-jockey> the old input is the previous programs
18:33:21 <oerjan> argle bargle, glop glyp glip
18:34:32 <oerjan> it seems to write each comment over the previous ones
18:35:05 <ais523|direct> ^bf ,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.
18:35:06 <fungot> es Anthony Richard Hoare
18:35:18 <oerjan> and if there is no ! in the ^bf program, it takes the input from the partially overwritten line
18:35:35 <oerjan> ais523|direct: sure it does
18:35:52 <oerjan> that's probably from the youngest comment that was long enough
18:35:57 <ais523|direct> ^bf ,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.
18:35:57 <fungot> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP>
18:36:14 <ais523|direct> ^bf ,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.
18:36:17 <oerjan> each comment just overwrites the line, probably terminating with zero or something
18:37:47 <fungot> get rid of the 0 terminators
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18:39:51 <oerjan> so you only get from the end of the bf program to the first 0
18:40:38 <oerjan> those A's up there may mean you actually got past the whole line and into some other territory?
18:41:21 <oerjan> it's probably zero outside the input line
18:42:17 <oerjan> oh you thought the detection happened on the _output_?
18:42:59 <fungot> uif!efufdujpo!ibqqfofe!po!uif!`pvuqvu`@<CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP> ...
18:43:21 <oerjan> the input is not checked for EOF it seems
18:43:54 <fungot> tp<CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP> ...
18:44:01 <oerjan> yeah seems you are right
18:45:28 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:45:28 <fungot> e and into some other territory?
18:45:40 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:45:49 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:45:50 <fungot> .,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.
18:46:02 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:46:02 <fungot> ,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.
18:46:11 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:46:11 <fungot> f someone links a C program as well they should be careful if they plan to use ncurses
18:46:35 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:46:35 <fungot> if they plan to use ncurses
18:46:43 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:46:43 <fungot> id3tag -jack -kate -libas
18:46:56 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:47:03 -!- Slereah has quit.
18:47:06 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:47:14 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.]
18:47:33 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
18:47:47 <oerjan> hm i guess i'm starting to be cut off
18:48:03 <Mony> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
18:48:48 <Mony> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++..+++.<++.<<+++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
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20:03:46 -!- mib_8oomfc has joined.
20:03:51 <mib_8oomfc> ehird@rutian:~$ sudo chown -R www-data:www-data /var/
20:03:57 -!- psygnisf_ has joined.
20:04:50 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
20:06:09 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Client Quit).
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20:44:25 <Sgeo> mib_8oomfc, how could that possible be difficult to fix?
20:58:23 <fungot> , how could that possible be difficult to fix?
20:58:43 <fungot> how could that possible be difficult to fix?
20:59:41 <AnMaster> I suggest reinstalling packages if they will restore permissions to their own files
21:00:05 <AnMaster> depending on what distro you use there may be special tools to compare permissions to that packages say should be used
21:00:17 <AnMaster> I remember suse had such a tool ages ago when I used it
21:00:41 <AnMaster> similar scripts could be written easily if your distro use something like /var/db/pkg
21:02:05 <AnMaster> that could be used to restore it somewhat
21:02:43 <AnMaster> files from ports, if they are there and not in /usr/local, may need clean up in different ways
21:04:34 <Sgeo> Oh, because they're all supposed to be owned by different accounts?
21:08:03 * oerjan wonders if anything would _really_ go wrong if he just set all of it to root:root
21:08:57 <Sgeo> Possibly a webserver would be unable to read its files
21:11:13 <fungot> ~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:987654321 ...
21:11:48 <cpu-jockey> just what i needed :p my kbd layout is broken right now
21:15:18 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
21:25:55 <fizzie> Uh, that's the strangeity.
21:26:09 <fizzie> The brainfuck cat input thing, I mean.
21:26:33 <fungot> uck cat input thing, I mean.
21:27:16 <oerjan> looks pretty obvious what it does now
21:27:25 <fungot> ty obvious what it does now
21:27:29 <fungot> ty obvious what it does now
21:27:41 <fizzie> Yes, but it should see the \0 at the end of the program and stop reading input there already.
21:28:03 -!- Judofyr has joined.
21:28:08 <fizzie> Well, maybe there's an extra 1+ somewhere; it does need to skip past the ! in the "^bf ...!foo" form.
21:44:17 <Sgeo> cpu-jockey, look for exploits in PSOX?
21:44:24 * Sgeo ducks for cover
21:44:50 * oerjan swats Sgeo. there is no escape. -----###
21:47:58 <cpu-jockey> nah, i was thinking more of a precompiled interpreter in C with a known virtual address for the tape with no boundrary checks accessible over the network .. or by pigfly express
22:06:46 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:22:48 <mib_8oomfc> my solution to the permissions shtuff: rebuild computer.
22:23:00 <mib_8oomfc> I'm rebuilding rutian; that's why I'm on mibbit--no bouncer
22:45:07 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
22:51:15 <AnMaster> as for rebuild: what about stuff on the system
22:51:27 <AnMaster> as for me I recommended reinstalling all packages
22:51:42 <AnMaster> or on suse using it's fixup tool
22:51:53 <AnMaster> I think redhat has such a tool too
22:52:11 <mib_8oomfc> also, I backed up the data beforehand, yes.
22:52:19 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: znc seemed a little, er, bloated.
22:52:27 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, makes you think of emacs?
22:52:30 <mib_8oomfc> Does a bouncer really require a dynamic runtime plugin mechanism?
22:53:10 <AnMaster> well I like znc, but does an editor need an advanced lisp based scripting language?
22:53:44 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, I like how znc handles multiple networks: as separate users
22:53:47 <oklopol> your mom needs a scripting language
22:53:55 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: That doesn't make sense. elaborate?
22:54:31 <oerjan> every program requires a dynamic runtime plugin mechanism, so it can more easily use its broken implementation of half of common lisp
22:54:33 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, last I checked, some bnc, not sure if it was psybnc or some other, mixed the network up, like multiplexed per user
22:54:42 <AnMaster> it make work fine in irssi or such
22:54:56 <AnMaster> but it is a pain in GUI clients that allow you to have a tree view
22:55:17 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, well I use loads of networks, so for me it was a major issue
22:56:50 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, idea: try znc out, see what you think
22:57:18 <mib_8oomfc> anyhoo, most likely candidate atm is ezbounce
22:57:27 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, haven't tried that one
22:57:46 <AnMaster> but well, I tried 2 or 3 before znc, and znc did all I wanted
22:57:48 <mib_8oomfc> fun fact: the base ubuntu server install includes the package "laptop-detect".
22:57:51 -!- Judofyr has quit.
22:57:54 <mib_8oomfc> you know, just in case you're running a server on a laptop.
22:58:24 <AnMaster> including that package on server edition is cracky
22:58:33 <mib_8oomfc> i don't think that word means what you think it means
22:58:45 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, true, but it does in another channel I'm in
22:59:10 <mib_8oomfc> apt-get purge aptitude dhcp3-client dhcp3-common eject laptop-detect \ libatm1 libnewt0.52 libx11-6 libx11-data
22:59:28 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, and cracky in this case means "coder/developer was on crack when he coded/decided/* that"
23:00:00 <mib_8oomfc> the dependencies in ubuntu/debian are a little strange
23:00:12 <mib_8oomfc> apt-get autoremove does its auto-dependencierating
23:00:18 <mib_8oomfc> and its terminal graphical interface is crap
23:00:40 <AnMaster> well I don't like *.deb based very much so
23:00:47 * AnMaster prefers rolling-release distros
23:00:49 <mib_8oomfc> anyway, the dependencies are weird - when I remove aptitude, it says that perl is now unused, and autoremove gets rid of it
23:00:58 <AnMaster> such as arch and gentoo, much easier to maintain and upgrade
23:00:58 <mib_8oomfc> so I then have to manually install perl again
23:01:04 <mib_8oomfc> even though /usr/bin/perl is still there
23:01:13 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: rolling-release is possible with debian.
23:01:23 <AnMaster> is /usr/bin/perl related to /etc/alternatives?
23:01:27 <mib_8oomfc> if you apt-get upgrade often, then dist-upgrade is just something you do every now and then
23:01:47 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: i think it fails to remove /usr/bin/perl because the thing that's removing it is running on it.
23:02:05 <AnMaster> can't you select packages at install time?
23:02:14 <AnMaster> I mean in some sort of install wizard or whatever
23:02:15 -!- Corun has joined.
23:02:16 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: slicehost just put an image on the thing
23:02:53 <mib_8oomfc> and since its ssh host thing has changed, I get a nice heap of alarmism from ssh
23:03:01 * AnMaster got 6 cds with classical music this xmas, and a few other things
23:03:10 <mib_8oomfc> (@@@@@@@@@SOMEONE IS PROBABLY MAN IN THE MIDDLING YOU AND EATING YOUR BABIES WHILE STEALING YOUR DOG@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@)
23:03:29 <AnMaster> damn I meant: "Dr. ssh I presume!"
23:04:45 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: also, I'm generally not going to use the ubuntu packages
23:05:04 <mib_8oomfc> which runs make install, and analyzes what files it installs
23:05:11 <mib_8oomfc> and builds a .deb out of that, which it adds to dpkg
23:05:21 <mib_8oomfc> end result you can remove it and upgrade it cleanly using the standard tools
23:06:46 <AnMaster> another nice thing this xmas: 45-pieces screwdriver set with some of those strange variants, such as torx and such
23:07:17 <mib_8oomfc> ... it's just an hour til real christmas.
23:07:50 <AnMaster> anyway it is 00:06 the 25th here now
23:09:02 <mib_8oomfc> This system is quite nicely stripped down, post-cleanup.
23:09:13 <mib_8oomfc> Around 145 installed packages, including the kernel, every single library, etc.
23:15:08 <mib_8oomfc> [ehird:~] % ssh eso-std.org ehird@eso-std.org's password: Linux rutian 2.6.16.29-xen #1 SMP Sun Sep 30 04:00:13 UTC 2007 x86_64 ehird@rutian:~$
23:16:24 <AnMaster> I do like it, but I heard ngnix was good too
23:16:38 <mib_8oomfc> Actually, this time I'm giving Cherokee a shot. http://www.cherokee-project.com/
23:16:45 <mib_8oomfc> It supports more of what I want than nginx.
23:20:00 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: it's also modular, you'll like that :P
23:24:06 <mib_8oomfc> /bin/mkdir: cannot create directory `/var/www': No such file or directory
23:24:32 -!- Corun has quit ("DRINK SOMETHING").
23:25:01 <mib_8oomfc> so it's not that the parent doesn't exist
23:25:03 <mib_8oomfc> test -z ""/var/www/images"" || /bin/mkdir -p ""/var/www/images"" /bin/mkdir: cannot create directory `/var/www': No such file or directory
23:25:37 <AnMaster> the double quotes *does* look weird
23:25:49 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, what about permissions?
23:25:49 <mib_8oomfc> nah, in bash quoting that's irrelevant.
23:26:08 <AnMaster> mounted read only or such I mean
23:26:46 <AnMaster> strace should easily be able to find the cause
23:27:05 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: Or, I could ask #debian if mkdir -p should ever give that error
23:27:11 <AnMaster> I would guess it is a errno failure
23:27:16 <mib_8oomfc> Well, I couldn't, because they block mibbit.
23:27:41 <mib_8oomfc> ehird@rutian:~/cherokee-0.11.5$ sudo /bin/mkdir -p ""/var/www/images"" ehird@rutian:~/cherokee-0.11.5$
23:28:32 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, yes something was very weird there
23:28:54 <AnMaster> if it was sudo I would try running that script using sudo su -
23:29:46 <AnMaster> or if it was with checkinstall, it might have caused it
23:30:02 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, I was comming to the same conclusion at the same time
23:30:27 <AnMaster> or install to a fake root prefix?
23:30:38 <mib_8oomfc> http://www.asic-linux.com.mx/~izto/checkinstall/
23:30:59 <AnMaster> idea what could happen if the latter: mkdir -p creates in fake root, looks in real root sees the directory wasn't created
23:31:14 <mib_8oomfc> test -z ""/usr/share/cherokee/icons/"" || /bin/mkdir -p ""/usr/share/cherokee/icons/"" /bin/mkdir: cannot create directory `/usr/share/cherokee': No such file or directory
23:31:31 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, what do you think of my last idea?
23:38:26 <AnMaster> as far as I have heard it is easy to fix
23:38:57 <mib_8oomfc> (Root has no password, it is completely locked: you cannot log in as root.)
23:39:04 <AnMaster> how is it more secure? if su already needs you to be in wheel group
23:39:19 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: because it's simply: you can't log in as root, period.
23:39:33 <mib_8oomfc> (And doesn't involve memorizing a root password.)
23:43:16 <AnMaster> not sure how to check it together with checkinstall
23:43:41 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: I mean use it, once I do that.
23:43:52 <AnMaster> here is an example http://rafb.net/p/iwCj9b44.html
23:44:02 <AnMaster> it is just a debugging tool to see system calles
23:44:10 <AnMaster> it can help see what call failed
23:44:15 <AnMaster> and figure out the cause of the failure
23:44:23 <AnMaster> like reading in the wrong place
23:44:33 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: it'll give like 50 pages of output, I bet.
23:44:52 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, well for checkinstall you probably need to use trace children option
23:45:00 <AnMaster> -f -- follow forks, -ff -- with output into separate files
23:45:32 <AnMaster> it is quite easy to use once you get the hang of it
23:46:02 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, and IMO one of the best debugging tools for when system tools behave strange, gdb is better when you know what to look for in the source
23:46:15 <mib_8oomfc> And, of course, checkinstall needs my input.
23:46:28 <AnMaster> you can redirect to separate file
23:46:41 <AnMaster> -o file -- send trace output to FILE instead of stderr
23:46:58 <mib_8oomfc> ehird@rutian:~/cherokee-0.11.5$ ls -lh yawn -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 862K Dec 24 23:46 yawn
23:47:16 <AnMaster> strace -o yawn -ff checkinstall
23:47:25 <AnMaster> strace does *NOT* work across sudo
23:47:33 <AnMaster> so you need to run strace on the root side too
23:48:02 <mib_8oomfc> Bah, eff this. There'll be a simple thing I'm missing.
23:48:24 <AnMaster> well sure, I just find strace very useful
23:48:33 <AnMaster> it is a great tool when used correctly
23:48:35 -!- jix_ has quit ("...").
23:48:57 <mib_8oomfc> I'll stick to my falutin' high-level languages.
23:48:58 <AnMaster> gdb, strace, valgrind there are a few I can't live without when programming/debugging. and gdb and strace even on servers
23:49:12 <AnMaster> since you want to analyse core dumps and such
23:52:28 <mib_8oomfc> I will install a bouncer while I think.
23:52:58 <mib_8oomfc> The options as I see them are ezbounce, znc and miau.
23:53:03 <mib_8oomfc> comex uses miau and it seems to be buggy.
23:53:09 <AnMaster> miau I haven't heard of before
23:53:10 <mib_8oomfc> znc seems a bit bloated for my tastes.
23:55:08 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: does znc offer the only reason I use a bouncer: it will log certain (not all) channels you specify, and, when you reconnect, it will play it back
23:55:17 <mib_8oomfc> i.e., send you all the messages/parts/joins/nicks/whatever since you left
23:55:26 <mib_8oomfc> so apart from timestamps, you get a "continuous" window
23:55:29 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, it has away log, I never checked if it can exclude channels or not
23:55:34 <AnMaster> since I want to log all channels
23:55:39 <mib_8oomfc> AnMaster: does it play it back in that manner, though?
23:55:41 <AnMaster> it also has full log, again I never checked details
23:55:49 <mib_8oomfc> also, I dont' want to log high-traffic channels like #haskell
23:55:49 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, it plays it back when you reconnect
23:56:00 <AnMaster> timestamps are added to the front of the line
23:56:27 <AnMaster> with the nick of the person in the normal place
23:56:34 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, think so, but I want it that way
23:56:57 <AnMaster> but you probably can by /msg *away foo
23:57:10 <AnMaster> yes it uses /msg *status /msg *whatever and so on
23:57:31 <mib_8oomfc> Why not a special command, as in /quote ZnC
23:57:49 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/3rKuw640.html
23:58:33 <AnMaster> <*away> Commands: away [-quiet], back [-quiet], delete <num|all>, ping, show, save, enabletimer, disabletimer, settimer <secs>, timer
23:58:51 * AnMaster checks what module is the right one
23:59:21 <mib_8oomfc> "Our core program does nothing! You have to trawl through our huge module list and pick them out. SO ELEGANT"
23:59:38 <AnMaster> mib_8oomfc, hm I actually like it that way
23:59:46 <AnMaster> ircds where you can configure what you want exactly
23:59:57 <AnMaster> I know an ircd that even has server-server linking as a module