00:01:15 clearly the b nodes are different 00:01:24 there's no cycle, just an infinite tree 00:01:31 well you didn't write them differently :P 00:01:46 because they correspond to the node b 00:01:54 this is like deja vu, in some sense 00:02:12 you keep saying that 00:02:25 i just recently wrote a 25 page, single spaced paper on a very closely related issue 00:02:27 i don't see why you insist on understanding this 00:02:41 i see 00:02:45 elaborate at once 00:02:48 well 00:02:53 im a syntactician 00:03:02 no, you're a pedant. 00:03:12 i do research into natural language syntax, and syntactic theory 00:03:17 naturally 00:03:36 and so obviously one of the main ideas in natural language syntax is, ofcourse, syntactic trees 00:03:53 and more importantly, tree building 00:03:58 well yes, i know it was about syntactic trees 00:04:00 that was kind of a given 00:04:07 /tree generation 00:04:17 hmm 00:04:23 give us semantic trees 00:04:28 with flowery prose! 00:04:37 some contemporary versions of tree building are ones that employ directed acyclic graphs 00:04:50 so that a single node can be dominated by more than one other node 00:05:08 dominated? 00:05:11 yes 00:05:18 a->b means a immediately dominates b 00:05:30 right. haven't heard that term 00:05:38 and a dominates b if a->b or if a->c and c dominates b 00:05:48 basically, domination is just a path in a DAG 00:05:48 i know 00:05:57 thats really what it amounts to 00:06:04 yes yes 00:06:12 just hadn't heard the term 00:06:17 anyway, there are some ideas being thrown around that depend on certain asymmetric relationships between nodes in a tree 00:06:29 or rather, asymmetric instances of a relationship 00:06:58 and when you have more than one node dominating some other node, these asymmetric relationships are not total 00:07:07 and totality is crucial for these ideas 00:07:39 getting pretty abstract. 00:07:39 but noone seems to notice this because they get caught up in conveniences of notation that conflict with their "formal" definitions 00:07:50 ok one of these relationships is called c-command 00:07:57 ok 00:08:01 in the earliest definition of c-command: 00:08:22 a c-commands b if a and b are sisters, or if b is dominated by a sister of a 00:08:40 so a c-commands its sisters and everything below them 00:08:44 oh that kind of relationships 00:08:54 yeah. a structural relationship between nodes 00:09:00 yes right k. 00:09:19 but imagine if a is simultaneously sister to b, but also dominated by b 00:09:40 * oklopol imagines 00:09:49 a and b do /not/ c-command one another, because c-command doesn't apply when one item contains the other 00:09:51 PaPba 00:09:55 P being their parent 00:10:04 er.. 00:10:09 wait that doesn't really work for undirected graphs.. 00:10:13 so just ignore it 00:10:31 well we have the following notation for it 00:10:37 [x a [b a]] 00:11:00 where the first item in the brackets is the label for the node that the brackets represents 00:11:03 and the rest are the child nodes 00:11:43 yeah 00:12:04 or lets assume that a and b do c-command one another 00:12:11 ignoring containment for a second 00:12:35 consider [x a [y b [z c a]]] 00:12:45 a and b symmetrically c-command one another 00:13:02 yeah 00:13:05 if only one of x and z directly dominated a, then it wouldn't be symmetric 00:13:12 it'd be asymmetric 00:13:33 hmm, actually i'm not sure i understand, wait a sec. 00:13:41 ok 00:13:46 i can just send you the paper 00:14:22 the parts that deal with this issue are relatively detached from syntax as a whole and deal with some very specific topics so youll understand it. 00:14:36 okay. 00:15:08 i still have a hard time seeing how this could have to do with rooting arbitrary graphs, but i'll try to find time to read it. 00:15:33 no, the part that i found deja vu like is that you were representing different nodes with the same symbols 00:16:05 and that unless you specify this beforehand, it's not apparent that they're different nodes 00:16:06 i see. it was just sexps really. 00:16:33 Sex pee 00:16:41 and one of the reasons that i wrote this paper was because similar things go on in syntax, with precisely the problems that you could expect from having a notation that can be interpreted in different ways. 00:17:07 oklopol: http://www.wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/Formalizing%20Minimalism.pdf 00:17:52 usually you'd explain your notation, and not have that problem 00:18:02 yeah, but this doesnt happen 00:18:25 weird. 00:18:29 sort of like it didnt happen when you said b->c->a->b->... was a tree without first saying that each b was a distinct node :P 00:18:51 anyway the reason i wasn't being clear was because i was sure you already understood it. 00:19:14 ah well. if you start talking mathy to me, i take everything at face value. 00:19:35 yeah, understandable 00:19:39 actually i do that in generally but its especially typical when talking about these things 00:21:16 being pedantic is always a good thing. i just didn't really feel like being more clear because my whole point was just to tell ehird what he said had definite truth in it, just not the exact truth he said it had. 00:21:32 and damn you for linking 00:21:33 * psygnisfive nodes 00:21:37 haha 00:21:37 now i feel i should read it. 00:21:37 :) 00:21:41 * oklopol edges 00:21:48 first you should comment on my site background images 00:22:08 http://www.wellnowwhat.net/ http://www.wellnowwhat.net/Rights_in_the_Post-Governance_Society.html http://www.wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/honors_thesis/ 00:22:31 Can't you just post gay porn? 00:22:50 psygnisfive: that's pretty awesome 00:24:01 the bgs? :) 00:24:10 psygnisfive: I can generate random colours too 00:24:19 actually i didnt generate these 00:24:29 psygnisfive: umm. 00:24:34 they're lines that keep showing up in windows 00:24:34 what page should i start on 00:25:03 some drawing glitch in my computer's window manager or something like that 00:25:12 oklopol: do you mean for this issue of DAGs and trees and such? 00:25:14 gfx card driver 00:25:19 psygnisfive: yes. 00:25:22 its not the driver actually, ehird 00:25:41 eh, I got similar glitches with a driver on x11 00:25:43 because they're bound to windows, in that i can drag the windows around and they follow it 00:25:48 and if i resize the windows they go away 00:25:49 huh 00:25:52 and i can take screenshots 00:25:57 its just some drawing algorithm error 00:26:15 of course if that's written by you, i might want to read the whole of it 00:26:26 then again i probably wouldn't understand it. 00:26:29 oklopol: yes, i wrote the whole thing 00:26:46 well yeah that wasn't really an "if", more like a "seeing as" 00:26:47 you might get it. its not TOO embedded in syntax, and most of what is i explain for completeness 00:26:55 psygnisfive: can you satisfy this amateur typographic fuck by switching to a non-monospaced font? 00:27:24 eh.. start on page 11, "Move, Multiple Dominance, and Linearization" 00:27:29 non-monospaced fonts should never be used 00:27:44 oklopol: yeah but you don't even read, you just connect objects to your brainwave 00:27:44 s 00:27:47 I use actual eyes and stuff 00:27:49 ehird: no. i like the monospacedness. its grungy and gritty and goes nicely with the backgrounds :) 00:28:01 psygnisfive: fine, don't expect me to read your site :P 00:28:06 how about Curlz MT 00:28:07 i dont :P 00:28:08 It's very grungy 00:28:20 failing that comic sans could be a good substitute 00:29:00 (non-monospaced fonts should be killed) 00:29:09 oklopol: shush 00:30:05 neverrr 00:32:13 ais523: http://www.mathrix.org/experimentalAIT/TuringMachine.html 00:32:27 -!- Judofyr has quit. 00:35:09 even people who don't think non-monospaced fonts should be killed often think comic sans should be killed. 00:36:34 curlz mt, man! 00:37:44 oejan: truer words 00:40:07 CURLZ FUCKING MT 00:40:57 * psygnisfive curlz ehird's mt 00:41:03 :o 00:41:36 http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/348-an-imperial-palimpsest-on-polands-electoral-map/ 00:48:18 -!- lolbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:53:06 -!- oerjan has quit ("Now to conquer the world. In my sleep."). 01:42:47 -!- Aias has changed nick to comex. 01:48:35 psygnisfive: this is a fun read 01:48:45 oh? 01:49:02 i have no idea what the definitions are useful for, but i like reading them :P 01:51:38 lol 01:51:41 which definitions do you mean? 01:53:01 c-commanding mostly, i just started. 01:53:42 most of this is over my head, you constantly refer to basic things i've never heard about 01:53:46 ah well, that section is mostly about the implications that using DAGs for syntax trees has for attempts to linearize the nodes in the tree based on c-command 01:53:51 which basic things? 01:54:42 merge 01:55:29 oh 01:55:46 well 01:55:47 linearize... does that mean ordering? 01:56:09 eh.. yes. linearization is taking a graph and finding some total relation over the graph 01:56:41 yeah okay good 01:56:56 or rather, taking some abstractly /defined/ relation, and finding that relation for some graph 01:57:12 because graphs are basically not linearly ordered 01:57:15 they're just abstract relations 01:57:35 right, right 01:57:36 so if a sentence is a graph, there has to be some unique way of linearizing the words in the graph 01:57:48 ohh 01:57:54 and it has to be a total linearization 01:58:09 there can't be any two words that have no relative linearization 01:58:16 i think i had a crucial epiphany 01:58:22 thank you for that 01:58:24 every word must either come before or after some other word 01:58:34 yes 01:59:03 so if your tree has no inherent directionality, like say a Left-Right tree does, you have to do this linearization some other way 01:59:20 and one of the ideas is that you could do this using asymmetric c-command relationships 01:59:33 yeah was just about to ask 01:59:50 (yes, i did just read about it, but i didn't understand what it was about back then) 01:59:56 :p 02:00:15 i find that everyone i talk to has to ask what linearization means 02:00:16 suddenly i wanna learn more about this 02:00:22 hahaha 02:00:28 well, i can teach you some syntax if you want :) 02:00:34 theres all sorts of shit like this in syntax 02:00:43 scope is another really fascinating issue in syntax 02:01:06 well i'm all for learning all the basics at least 02:01:26 except not now of course, it's 4 am. 02:01:35 theres honestly not much to learn, in terms of the way the theory works 02:01:45 probably not. 02:04:25 anyway, what you meant by linearization would've been clear if i'd understood the graph represented a sentence 02:04:57 well. right now it seems like it should've been perfectly clear even without that info 02:05:14 but i'm very tired, and i can just blame that 02:06:09 i realize now that I didn't use the word "sentence" until page 19 02:06:10 haha 02:06:25 but in the context of syntax, trees = sentences 02:06:26 so 02:09:08 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 02:09:13 ... 02:09:20 that was accidental 02:09:24 was it? 02:09:26 how can we know? 02:09:29 you ARE oklopol 02:09:37 i was reading my book you see 02:09:42 on the keyboard 02:09:49 and suddenly there were texts. 02:13:15 speaking of texts 02:13:43 http://www.malegeneral.com/dongs/src/1229957639477.jpg 02:15:08 Who is this faggot 02:15:13 In his pyjama 02:15:14 it's psygnisfive 02:15:22 psygnisfive, you are a faggot 02:15:48 i would never behave so ridiculously 02:15:54 or look so silly 02:16:10 Or would you? 02:16:16 yes would you? 02:17:27 no. 02:17:37 Let's see on your fetlife profile 02:17:41 actually i have a strong desire to punch people like that in the face 02:17:49 Maybe "Acting like a douche" is amidst it 02:18:28 it most certainly is not sir! 02:18:40 good heavens man, you're mad! 02:19:05 "forced orgasms (tens units, etc.)" 02:19:09 * psygnisfive puts on top hat and saunters off hautilly 02:19:12 What, exactly ten units? 02:19:18 tens unit. 02:19:19 What if it's nine or eleven? 02:19:40 tens = transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulator 02:20:08 Hm. 02:20:12 "Public humiliation" 02:20:19 Acting like a douche could totally do that 02:20:39 acting like a douche isn't humiliating 02:20:43 because you're a douch 02:21:01 it would be humiliating to those you're with. 02:21:28 i'm a douche 02:21:50 are you a douche like that tho? 02:21:57 :) 02:22:05 i'm not sure what kind of person that guy is 02:22:28 looks like a happy dude 02:22:33 i'm pretty happy 02:23:00 i can certainly be humiliating to those i'm with 02:23:21 But are you more humiliating than psygnisfive, though? 02:23:31 am i humiliating at all? 02:23:33 He'll probably hang with you in his fursuit or something. 02:23:39 for one, i may burst into song in pretty much any situation 02:23:42 i certainly do not have a fursuit 02:23:50 WOULD YOU LIKE TO? 02:23:54 fursuiters almost always annoy the fuck out of me 02:24:04 except for the ones im friends with who are hot 02:24:10 "teabagging (joecool)" 02:24:18 :D 02:24:21 Do you only want to teabag this "Joe Cool"? 02:24:36 i have no idea what joecool is 02:24:45 Also is he the teabagger or the teabaggee? 02:25:02 who cares! :D 02:25:33 Joe Cool does. 02:25:44 I think Joe Cool might be the legendary Cool Dude. 02:25:57 With the backward cap and the popped collars. 02:26:34 Ahah! 02:26:34 http://fetlife.com/users/8385 02:26:37 I was right! 02:26:45 Joe Cool does have a backward cap! 02:27:22 Strangely enough, he's not into teabagging Joe Cool 02:27:46 He's only curious about it 02:27:59 "It has my name on it, I wonder how it is!" 02:59:08 o 03:41:14 -!- jix_ has joined. 03:55:10 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:30:52 -!- lolbot has joined. 04:30:57 -!- lolbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:31:50 -!- lolbot has joined. 04:32:35 .fortune 04:32:35 There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies and the other is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. -- Charles Anthony Richard Hoare 06:09:54 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:43:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("You only need one wheel. Bikers are just greedy."). 09:08:21 wow, have there seriously been no comments in the last lik 7 hours? 09:08:21 lame 09:18:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:27:51 i certainly do not have a fursuit 09:27:57 neither do i, forsooth 09:28:20 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 09:28:47 that was weird 10:13:44 merry xmas! 10:14:01 (in Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia we celebrate on the 24th) 10:18:40 oerjan, that is true for Norway too isn't it? 10:18:48 yes 10:18:48 I know it is for Sweden and Finland 10:18:54 :) 10:19:53 ooooooooooo 10:19:59 oklopol, ? 10:20:23 Some Finnish xmas song I expect? 10:22:38 ooooooooooo joulu, ooooooooooo joulu 10:23:00 oerjan, is that Norwegian or Finnish? 10:23:09 definitely not norwegian 10:23:12 ah 10:23:19 that would be 10:23:28 åååååååååååå julen, ååååååååååå julen 10:23:38 might work in swedish too? 10:23:40 would be same in Swedish 10:23:41 indeed 10:24:27 * AnMaster listens to some classical music, by Grieg 10:25:18 dum dum dum dum dum dum dum, dum dum dum, dum dum dum, dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum dum DUM 10:25:56 nah not that one 10:26:08 was "Morning mood" 10:26:32 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 10:26:37 na na na na na na, na na na na na-na-na-na, na na na na na na na na na na... 10:26:53 not "I bergakungens sal" (as I believe the original name is? This CD got English titles...) 10:27:07 I Dovregubbens hall 10:27:30 ah 10:27:36 so that was a Swedish variant then 10:28:11 oerjan, oh also Solveig's song is probably the best piece of music from the Peer Gynt suites. 10:29:54 oerjan, or what do you think 10:30:08 well it's pretty 10:30:17 yes indeed 10:32:11 also, merry christmas 10:32:42 oerjan, God Jul! 10:46:59 god yule! 10:48:26 * oklopol goes off yulin' -> 10:49:16 -!- Mony has joined. 11:07:53 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:15:33 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:38:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:44:49 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:44:50 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 11:44:52 ah, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/ has entered into the holiday spirit 11:46:09 I saw it this morning 11:46:11 :) 11:46:28 oh and cya, going to visit grandparents, so away for the rest of the day 11:46:43 bye and still God Jul 12:12:40 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:12:47 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:13:16 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:57:28 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:48:57 Stupid weird europeans. 13:49:01 And your stupid xmas on today 14:00:34 Merry X-my-ass! 14:04:14 xmas is tomorrow, freak retard. 14:04:29 you are an inferior being 14:05:05 technically even here it doesn't start until 5 o'clock iirc 14:05:45 that's when they ring the church bells 14:07:10 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:42:50 -!- lolbot has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:46:09 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 14:53:21 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:59:30 -!- Corun has joined. 15:02:11 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 15:07:04 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:20:52 -!- Judofyr has joined. 15:35:21 hi ais523 15:35:52 -!- ehird has set topic: It's christmas eve, unless you're a wacky freak-man in one of those weird-ass European countries, in which case it's still Christmas Eve but you're celebrating today. 15:37:11 i'm being 100% sarcastic and not sarcastic at the same time. <--- I love this line 15:37:52 ais523: sure you do. 16:02:37 -!- Corun has changed nick to JollyRomping. 16:03:59 -!- Judofyr has quit. 16:15:37 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:33:09 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:44:27 52M optbot 16:44:31 those logs be big 16:46:40 -!- JollyRomping has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 16:51:31 -!- sgt_nubbl has joined. 16:52:08 -!- sgt_nubbl has left (?). 17:36:59 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:38:05 -!- thutubot has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:38:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:40:21 -!- ais523|direct has joined. 17:45:46 Spec: that's good, since it allows tunneling over P 17:46:14 hmm... do we have more new people here, or is cpu-jockey someone I know under a new nick? 17:46:25 new 17:46:31 (b) 17:46:34 (rainfuck) 17:46:38 ah, everyone loves Brainfuck 17:46:44 with good reason 17:46:45 <3 17:47:02 i'm thinking about writing a bf interpreter in asm 17:47:07 with the idea of selfmodifying code 17:47:09 -!- Corun has joined. 17:47:09 Well, it is easy to learn and reasonably easy to use 17:47:12 and some math tricks 17:47:38 rainfuck might be interesting as well, in theory 17:47:56 that is, push machine code directly proportinal to input to the stack, and jmp *esp 17:57:06 ^bf ++++++++[->++++>++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<<]>>++.>>++.<+.++++++++.>----.<---.>+++++++.<<---.++++++++.<<.>>--.>--.<<<.>>+.+++.>+++.<----------. 17:57:07 Brainfu?G 17:57:15 oerjan: ? 17:57:25 typo near the end? 17:57:25 BRAINFUG 17:57:35 a bit before the end 17:58:08 ^bf ++++++++[->++++>++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<<]>>++.>>++.<+.++++++++.>----.<---.>+++++++.<---.++++++++.<<.>>--.>--.<<<.>>+.+++.>+++.<----------. 17:58:09 Brainfuck is jmvc 17:58:23 * oerjan is cursed. CURSED, i tell you 17:58:38 jmvc 17:58:39 jmvc 17:58:39 jmvc 17:58:39 jmvc 17:58:41 btw, I actually got gcc-bf to do something useful 17:58:50 although it fails at just about everything 17:58:56 ^bf ++++++++[->++++>++++++++>++++++++++++>++++++++++++++<<<<]>>++.>>++.<+.++++++++.>----.<---.>+++++++.<---.++++++++.<<.>>--.>--.<<<.>>+++.+++.>+++.<----------. 17:58:56 Brainfuck is love 17:58:57 I managed to get as far as the hello in hello world 17:59:03 because I was doing the hello and the world differently 17:59:21 (pointers to heap work atm, pointers to stack do I think but can't be used due to a different bug) 18:09:03 ^bf ++++++++[->++++>+<<]>+>[++++++++<.>] 18:09:04 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 18:21:33 ^bf ,. 18:21:33 + 18:24:38 o_O 18:25:33 ^bf ,. 18:25:33 + 18:25:36 ^bf ,,. 18:25:36 + 18:25:39 ^bf ,,,. 18:25:39 + 18:25:53 ^bf +,. 18:26:02 ^bf ,. 18:26:03 18:26:10 curiouser 18:26:53 ^bf . 18:27:13 ^bf ,.!? 18:27:14 ? 18:27:18 ^bf ,. 18:27:18 ? 18:27:34 ^bf ,.! 18:28:32 ^bf +[,.]!Hello, world! 18:28:33 Hello, world! 18:28:40 ^bf ,. 18:28:40 . 18:29:03 ^bf ,. 18:29:04 . 18:29:05 ^bf ,. 18:29:05 . 18:29:38 ^bf >+[<,.>] 18:29:38 lo, world! 18:29:45 :D 18:29:55 ^bf >+[<,.>] 18:29:55 lo, world! 18:29:55 wtf? 18:30:10 ^bf +[,.] 18:30:10 >] 18:30:10 it must have old input from somewhere 18:30:17 yeah 18:30:34 ^bf +[,.] 18:30:34 ve old input from somewhere 18:30:35 wait a minute 18:30:40 oh shit 18:30:43 the old input is the previous programs 18:30:48 no, it isn't 18:30:48 cpu-jockey: no, look! 18:30:50 it's old comments 18:30:54 ^bf +[,.] 18:30:54 omments 18:31:07 ..........Hello, world! 18:31:10 ^bf +[,.] 18:31:10 oh 18:31:10 Hello, world! 18:32:03 oh right 18:33:04 test a bit here 18:33:21 argle bargle, glop glyp glip 18:33:28 and about here 18:33:36 ^bf +[,.] 18:33:37 here 18:33:44 ^bf ++++++++++[,.] 18:33:45 glyp glip 18:34:32 it seems to write each comment over the previous ones 18:35:05 ^bf ,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,. 18:35:06 es Anthony Richard Hoare 18:35:11 ? 18:35:18 and if there is no ! in the ^bf program, it takes the input from the partially overwritten line 18:35:28 well, that doesn't explain my last test 18:35:32 although it does explain the other results 18:35:35 ais523|direct: sure it does 18:35:52 that's probably from the youngest comment that was long enough 18:35:57 ^bf ,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+.,+. 18:35:57 18:36:03 oh, of course 18:36:14 ^bf ,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++. 18:36:15 -0.-0 18:36:17 each comment just overwrites the line, probably terminating with zero or something 18:36:24 yes, I'm trying to get rid of the 0 terminators 18:37:47 ^bf ,[[[[.,],],],] 18:37:47 get rid of the 0 terminators 18:39:14 I think once it reads a 0, it realises it has EOF 18:39:26 yeah 18:39:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:39:51 so you only get from the end of the bf program to the first 0 18:40:38 those A's up there may mean you actually got past the whole line and into some other territory? 18:40:54 er wait 18:41:03 it must have just been a very old long comment 18:41:21 it's probably zero outside the input line 18:42:17 oh you thought the detection happened on the _output_? 18:42:20 hm maybe 18:42:58 ^bf +++++[,+.] 18:42:59 uif!efufdujpo!ibqqfofe!po!uif!`pvuqvu`@ ... 18:43:10 ah yes it was 18:43:21 the input is not checked for EOF it seems 18:43:30 no, I think once , returns 0 it always returns 0 18:43:41 all the evidence so far points to that 18:43:45 oh that may be so 18:43:53 ^bf +++++[,+.] 18:43:54 tp ... 18:44:01 yeah seems you are right 18:45:28 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:45:28 e and into some other territory? 18:45:40 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:45:49 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:45:50 .,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++. 18:46:02 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:46:02 ,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++.,++. 18:46:11 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:46:11 f someone links a C program as well they should be careful if they plan to use ncurses 18:46:35 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:46:35 if they plan to use ncurses 18:46:43 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:46:43 id3tag -jack -kate -libas 18:46:56 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:46:56 ... 18:47:03 -!- Slereah has quit. 18:47:06 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:47:06 ... 18:47:14 ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[,.] 18:47:14 ... 18:47:33 ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 18:47:47 hm i guess i'm starting to be cut off 18:48:03 ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. 18:48:03 Hello World!. 18:48:06 :D 18:48:48 ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++..+++.<++.<<+++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. 18:48:48 4ejjm6 18:56:42 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:04:54 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:38:51 -!- ais523|direct has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:52:25 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:56:19 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:01:07 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 20:03:46 -!- mib_8oomfc has joined. 20:03:51 Face palm of the day: 20:03:51 ehird@rutian:~$ sudo chown -R www-data:www-data /var/ 20:03:55 Help. 20:03:57 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 20:04:02 :x 20:04:50 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:06:09 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Client Quit). 20:32:26 -!- Corun has joined. 20:44:25 mib_8oomfc, how could that possible be difficult to fix? 20:58:23 ^bf +[,.] 20:58:23 , how could that possible be difficult to fix? 20:58:31 huh 20:58:37 nice one 20:58:43 ^bf ++[,.] 20:58:43 how could that possible be difficult to fix? 20:58:49 ^bf ++[,.]!t 20:58:49 t 20:59:12 mib_8oomfc, hm 20:59:15 tricky one 20:59:18 are you ehird? 20:59:41 I suggest reinstalling packages if they will restore permissions to their own files 21:00:05 depending on what distro you use there may be special tools to compare permissions to that packages say should be used 21:00:17 I remember suse had such a tool ages ago when I used it 21:00:41 similar scripts could be written easily if your distro use something like /var/db/pkg 21:00:42 or such 21:00:51 sed 21:01:50 freebsd has mtree 21:01:58 same for other *bsd I think 21:02:05 that could be used to restore it somewhat 21:02:43 files from ports, if they are there and not in /usr/local, may need clean up in different ways 21:04:34 Oh, because they're all supposed to be owned by different accounts? 21:08:03 * oerjan wonders if anything would _really_ go wrong if he just set all of it to root:root 21:08:57 Possibly a webserver would be unable to read its files 21:09:13 I think 21:09:19 mm 21:11:13 ^bf -[.-] 21:11:13 ~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:987654321 ... 21:11:48 just what i needed :p my kbd layout is broken right now 21:15:18 ^bf +[.+] 21:15:18 .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ... 21:25:55 Uh, that's the strangeity. 21:26:09 The brainfuck cat input thing, I mean. 21:26:33 ^bf +[,.] 21:26:33 uck cat input thing, I mean. 21:27:16 looks pretty obvious what it does now 21:27:25 ^bf +[,.] 21:27:25 ty obvious what it does now 21:27:28 hmm. 21:27:29 ^bf +[,.] 21:27:29 ty obvious what it does now 21:27:41 Yes, but it should see the \0 at the end of the program and stop reading input there already. 21:28:03 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:28:08 Well, maybe there's an extra 1+ somewhere; it does need to skip past the ! in the "^bf ...!foo" form. 21:32:50 an exploit in brainfuck would be cool 21:44:17 cpu-jockey, look for exploits in PSOX? 21:44:24 * Sgeo ducks for cover 21:44:50 * oerjan swats Sgeo. there is no escape. -----### 21:47:58 nah, i was thinking more of a precompiled interpreter in C with a known virtual address for the tape with no boundrary checks accessible over the network .. or by pigfly express 22:06:46 -!- bsmntbombgirl has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:22:14 Hi thar! 22:22:48 my solution to the permissions shtuff: rebuild computer. 22:22:49 Hi AnMaster 22:23:00 I'm rebuilding rutian; that's why I'm on mibbit--no bouncer 22:23:02 Which did you reccomend? 22:31:13 AnMaster: ping 22:45:07 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 22:50:56 mib_8oomfc, hi 22:51:07 recommend what? 22:51:15 as for rebuild: what about stuff on the system 22:51:19 did you back that up 22:51:27 as for me I recommended reinstalling all packages 22:51:37 or on *bsd using mtree 22:51:42 or on suse using it's fixup tool 22:51:53 I think redhat has such a tool too 22:51:58 don't know name 22:52:03 AnMaster: recommend bouncer 22:52:08 ah 22:52:10 znc is what I use 22:52:11 also, I backed up the data beforehand, yes. 22:52:19 AnMaster: znc seemed a little, er, bloated. 22:52:21 quite flexible and such 22:52:27 mib_8oomfc, makes you think of emacs? 22:52:30 Does a bouncer really require a dynamic runtime plugin mechanism? 22:52:32 I mean really. 22:53:10 well I like znc, but does an editor need an advanced lisp based scripting language? 22:53:19 no. that's why I don't use emacs 22:53:44 mib_8oomfc, I like how znc handles multiple networks: as separate users 22:53:47 your mom needs a scripting language 22:53:50 also i need sleep -> 22:53:55 AnMaster: That doesn't make sense. elaborate? 22:54:31 every program requires a dynamic runtime plugin mechanism, so it can more easily use its broken implementation of half of common lisp 22:54:33 mib_8oomfc, last I checked, some bnc, not sure if it was psybnc or some other, mixed the network up, like multiplexed per user 22:54:36 if you see what I mean 22:54:42 it make work fine in irssi or such 22:54:45 I only use Freenode. 22:54:56 but it is a pain in GUI clients that allow you to have a tree view 22:55:03 with network and channels 22:55:07 such as xchat 22:55:17 mib_8oomfc, well I use loads of networks, so for me it was a major issue 22:56:47 flargl 22:56:50 mib_8oomfc, idea: try znc out, see what you think 22:56:52 * mib_8oomfc wipes box 22:56:55 may be worth it 22:56:57 :) 22:56:58 AnMaster: yeah, once I rewipe 22:57:06 again? 22:57:09 what did you do 22:57:12 no, I haven't done it yet 22:57:18 anyhoo, most likely candidate atm is ezbounce 22:57:27 mib_8oomfc, haven't tried that one 22:57:46 but well, I tried 2 or 3 before znc, and znc did all I wanted 22:57:48 fun fact: the base ubuntu server install includes the package "laptop-detect". 22:57:49 and more indeed 22:57:51 -!- Judofyr has quit. 22:57:54 you know, just in case you're running a server on a laptop. 22:57:55 it has to know. 22:57:58 mib_8oomfc, crack 22:58:01 y 22:58:08 what 22:58:24 including that package on server edition is cracky 22:58:33 i don't think that word means what you think it means 22:58:40 AnMaster: also, libx11 22:58:44 because all servers are desktops 22:58:45 mib_8oomfc, true, but it does in another channel I'm in 22:58:54 mib_8oomfc, is *vnc there? 22:58:58 no 22:59:04 it's for ssh x11 forwarding, prolly 22:59:10 apt-get purge aptitude dhcp3-client dhcp3-common eject laptop-detect \ libatm1 libnewt0.52 libx11-6 libx11-data 22:59:14 ^ Current plan. 22:59:28 mib_8oomfc, and cracky in this case means "coder/developer was on crack when he coded/decided/* that" 22:59:36 heh 23:00:00 you dislike aptitude? 23:00:00 the dependencies in ubuntu/debian are a little strange 23:00:05 AnMaster: it's useless 23:00:10 oh? ok 23:00:12 apt-get autoremove does its auto-dependencierating 23:00:18 and its terminal graphical interface is crap 23:00:40 well I don't like *.deb based very much so 23:00:47 * AnMaster prefers rolling-release distros 23:00:49 anyway, the dependencies are weird - when I remove aptitude, it says that perl is now unused, and autoremove gets rid of it 23:00:54 but debconf requires perl 23:00:58 such as arch and gentoo, much easier to maintain and upgrade 23:00:58 so I then have to manually install perl again 23:01:04 even though /usr/bin/perl is still there 23:01:13 AnMaster: rolling-release is possible with debian. 23:01:14 heh 23:01:23 is /usr/bin/perl related to /etc/alternatives? 23:01:27 if you apt-get upgrade often, then dist-upgrade is just something you do every now and then 23:01:29 on debian stuff 23:01:29 and no, I don't think so. 23:01:47 AnMaster: i think it fails to remove /usr/bin/perl because the thing that's removing it is running on it. 23:01:51 haha 23:01:56 that is just pure insane 23:02:05 can't you select packages at install time? 23:02:14 I mean in some sort of install wizard or whatever 23:02:15 -!- Corun has joined. 23:02:16 AnMaster: slicehost just put an image on the thing 23:02:21 but I believe so, yes 23:02:21 ah right 23:02:53 and since its ssh host thing has changed, I get a nice heap of alarmism from ssh 23:03:01 * AnMaster got 6 cds with classical music this xmas, and a few other things 23:03:10 (@@@@@@@@@SOMEONE IS PROBABLY MAN IN THE MIDDLING YOU AND EATING YOUR BABIES WHILE STEALING YOUR DOG@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@) 23:03:18 ssh I assume! 23:03:29 damn I meant: "Dr. ssh I presume!" 23:03:57 very bad joke yes :P 23:04:45 AnMaster: also, I'm generally not going to use the ubuntu packages 23:04:48 ((for up-to-dateness)) 23:04:55 I'm going to do ./configure && make 23:04:56 then sudo checkinstall 23:05:04 which runs make install, and analyzes what files it installs 23:05:11 and builds a .deb out of that, which it adds to dpkg 23:05:21 end result you can remove it and upgrade it cleanly using the standard tools 23:06:27 which is nice. 23:06:46 another nice thing this xmas: 45-pieces screwdriver set with some of those strange variants, such as torx and such 23:06:58 heh 23:07:17 ... it's just an hour til real christmas. 23:07:19 Surreal. 23:07:23 mib_8oomfc, not here! 23:07:30 I said real. 23:07:50 anyway it is 00:06 the 25th here now 23:07:51 :P 23:07:58 * AnMaster watches mib_8oomfc's pain 23:08:06 Heh 23:09:02 This system is quite nicely stripped down, post-cleanup. 23:09:13 Around 145 installed packages, including the kernel, every single library, etc. 23:15:08 [ehird:~] % ssh eso-std.org ehird@eso-std.org's password: Linux rutian 2.6.16.29-xen #1 SMP Sun Sep 30 04:00:13 UTC 2007 x86_64 ehird@rutian:~$ 23:15:09 Woohoo 23:15:17 Speedy too! 23:16:02 Hokay. 23:16:05 Next up: web server! 23:16:09 Now watch AnMaster recommend lighttpd 23:16:24 I do like it, but I heard ngnix was good too 23:16:30 I assume you will use it 23:16:38 Actually, this time I'm giving Cherokee a shot. http://www.cherokee-project.com/ 23:16:45 It supports more of what I want than nginx. 23:16:48 ANd it's faster(!) 23:16:57 it's ridiculously fast 23:16:59 .com? 23:17:09 hm 23:17:34 eh, everyone uses .com 23:17:42 it's GPL 23:20:00 AnMaster: it's also modular, you'll like that :P 23:20:03 and uses epoll and stuff. 23:22:50 * mib_8oomfc sudo checkinstall, BAM! 23:24:04 wtf 23:24:06 /bin/mkdir: cannot create directory `/var/www': No such file or directory 23:24:32 -!- Corun has quit ("DRINK SOMETHING"). 23:24:42 hm 23:24:56 it was called with -p 23:25:01 so it's not that the parent doesn't exist 23:25:03 test -z ""/var/www/images"" || /bin/mkdir -p ""/var/www/images"" /bin/mkdir: cannot create directory `/var/www': No such file or directory 23:25:19 interesting 23:25:26 no I'm not sure of the cause 23:25:33 more like wtfening 23:25:37 the double quotes *does* look weird 23:25:49 mib_8oomfc, what about permissions? 23:25:49 nah, in bash quoting that's irrelevant. 23:25:55 also, *do 23:25:57 AnMaster: permissions are fine 23:25:58 this is as root 23:26:03 mount? 23:26:08 mounted read only or such I mean 23:26:15 no 23:26:20 strace 23:26:25 no :P 23:26:28 that is the last resort 23:26:31 and it will always work 23:26:34 in such a case 23:26:46 strace should easily be able to find the cause 23:27:05 AnMaster: Or, I could ask #debian if mkdir -p should ever give that error 23:27:11 I would guess it is a errno failure 23:27:16 Well, I couldn't, because they block mibbit. 23:27:16 so it uses the wrong errno 23:27:22 Because they're stupid. 23:27:25 if you see what I mean? 23:27:33 AnMaster: I doubt it.. 23:27:37 strace will be the best way 23:27:41 ehird@rutian:~/cherokee-0.11.5$ sudo /bin/mkdir -p ""/var/www/images"" ehird@rutian:~/cherokee-0.11.5$ 23:27:44 wfm 23:28:32 mib_8oomfc, yes something was very weird there 23:28:36 were you using sudo or su? 23:28:41 when you hit the error 23:28:54 if it was sudo I would try running that script using sudo su - 23:28:56 then run it 23:29:12 sudo. 23:29:17 I'll read their makefile. 23:29:20 (Because I hate myself. 23:29:21 using su may work 23:29:21 ) 23:29:29 I had sudo mess up before 23:29:43 This works without checkinstall. 23:29:46 or if it was with checkinstall, it might have caused it 23:29:47 Maybe it's checkinstall's monitoring. 23:30:00 I could manually 'make www'. 23:30:02 mib_8oomfc, I was comming to the same conclusion at the same time 23:30:14 how does checkinstall work? 23:30:19 a LD_PRELOAD? 23:30:24 Wish I knew. 23:30:27 or install to a fake root prefix? 23:30:38 http://www.asic-linux.com.mx/~izto/checkinstall/ 23:30:46 ah probably fake root 23:30:59 idea what could happen if the latter: mkdir -p creates in fake root, looks in real root sees the directory wasn't created 23:31:02 goes mad 23:31:05 that is just a wild idea 23:31:14 test -z ""/usr/share/cherokee/icons/"" || /bin/mkdir -p ""/usr/share/cherokee/icons/"" /bin/mkdir: cannot create directory `/usr/share/cherokee': No such file or directory 23:31:19 wtf 23:31:31 mib_8oomfc, what do you think of my last idea? 23:31:36 * mib_8oomfc considers F-ing checkinstall 23:31:38 AnMaster: possible. 23:34:14 I wonder what is up with it. 23:36:40 AnMaster: By the way, I can't su. 23:36:42 I can sudo su though. 23:38:17 mib_8oomfc, ubuntu fail 23:38:19 is the cause of that 23:38:26 as far as I have heard it is easy to fix 23:38:38 no. 23:38:40 it's not failure/ 23:38:44 I specifically did it that way. 23:38:46 For security. 23:38:57 (Root has no password, it is completely locked: you cannot log in as root.) 23:39:01 And that's Good. 23:39:04 how is it more secure? if su already needs you to be in wheel group 23:39:10 and ssh is set to deny root 23:39:19 AnMaster: because it's simply: you can't log in as root, period. 23:39:22 It's an extra barrier. 23:39:27 And "sudo su -" works. 23:39:33 (And doesn't involve memorizing a root password.) 23:42:39 AnMaster: so how do you use strace 23:43:05 strace /bin/foo 23:43:16 not sure how to check it together with checkinstall 23:43:41 AnMaster: I mean use it, once I do that. 23:43:52 here is an example http://rafb.net/p/iwCj9b44.html 23:44:02 it is just a debugging tool to see system calles 23:44:04 calls* 23:44:10 it can help see what call failed 23:44:15 and figure out the cause of the failure 23:44:18 what it was doing 23:44:20 Eh, ok. 23:44:23 like reading in the wrong place 23:44:30 such as I suggested above 23:44:33 AnMaster: it'll give like 50 pages of output, I bet. 23:44:52 mib_8oomfc, well for checkinstall you probably need to use trace children option 23:44:57 how 23:45:00 -f -- follow forks, -ff -- with output into separate files 23:45:19 strace -h 23:45:24 for more details :) 23:45:32 it is quite easy to use once you get the hang of it 23:46:02 mib_8oomfc, and IMO one of the best debugging tools for when system tools behave strange, gdb is better when you know what to look for in the source 23:46:08 Neat, 50 pages of useless output. 23:46:10 Awesome......... 23:46:15 And, of course, checkinstall needs my input. 23:46:18 mib_8oomfc, power of grep :D 23:46:19 But I can't see what it wants. 23:46:20 AWESOME 23:46:23 and 23:46:28 you can redirect to separate file 23:46:39 Yeah okay, how 23:46:41 -o file -- send trace output to FILE instead of stderr 23:46:58 ehird@rutian:~/cherokee-0.11.5$ ls -lh yawn -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 862K Dec 24 23:46 yawn 23:47:16 strace -o yawn -ff checkinstall 23:47:19 or something like that 23:47:22 yes. 23:47:25 strace does *NOT* work across sudo 23:47:31 I did 'sudo strace' 23:47:33 so you need to run strace on the root side too 23:47:38 mib_8oomfc, that should work 23:48:02 Bah, eff this. There'll be a simple thing I'm missing. 23:48:24 well sure, I just find strace very useful 23:48:33 it is a great tool when used correctly 23:48:35 -!- jix_ has quit ("..."). 23:48:57 I'll stick to my falutin' high-level languages. 23:48:58 gdb, strace, valgrind there are a few I can't live without when programming/debugging. and gdb and strace even on servers 23:49:12 since you want to analyse core dumps and such 23:49:19 in case something fails 23:52:13 * mib_8oomfc wonders what to do. 23:52:23 Hmm. 23:52:27 well strace could work 23:52:28 I will install a bouncer while I think. 23:52:40 mib_8oomfc, try them out 23:52:44 there are several nice ones 23:52:51 znc, ezbounce and so on 23:52:58 The options as I see them are ezbounce, znc and miau. 23:53:03 comex uses miau and it seems to be buggy. 23:53:09 miau I haven't heard of before 23:53:10 znc seems a bit bloated for my tastes. 23:53:14 So I guess I will try ezbounce. 23:53:23 because I use znc? 23:53:40 no. 23:53:45 but it looked a bit bloated. 23:53:48 hm ok 23:55:08 AnMaster: does znc offer the only reason I use a bouncer: it will log certain (not all) channels you specify, and, when you reconnect, it will play it back 23:55:17 i.e., send you all the messages/parts/joins/nicks/whatever since you left 23:55:21 then erase that log 23:55:26 so apart from timestamps, you get a "continuous" window 23:55:29 mib_8oomfc, it has away log, I never checked if it can exclude channels or not 23:55:30 it's really great 23:55:34 since I want to log all channels 23:55:39 AnMaster: does it play it back in that manner, though? 23:55:41 it also has full log, again I never checked details 23:55:49 also, I dont' want to log high-traffic channels like #haskell 23:55:49 mib_8oomfc, it plays it back when you reconnect 23:55:49 but 23:55:51 with timestamps 23:55:55 AnMaster: with timestamps? 23:55:55 How? 23:56:00 timestamps are added to the front of the line 23:56:03 Ew. 23:56:04 like: 23:56:15 Like. 23:56:16 [12:00] rest of line here 23:56:23 can you disable that? 23:56:27 with the nick of the person in the normal place 23:56:34 mib_8oomfc, think so, but I want it that way 23:56:44 so I'm not sure 23:56:57 but you probably can by /msg *away foo 23:57:00 or something like that 23:57:10 yes it uses /msg *status /msg *whatever and so on 23:57:13 with that * 23:57:17 for controlling functions 23:57:17 ...really? 23:57:19 Why? 23:57:31 Why not a special command, as in /quote ZnC 23:57:33 *ZNC 23:57:49 http://rafb.net/p/3rKuw640.html 23:57:56 mib_8oomfc, that works too 23:58:01 iirc 23:58:11 yep it does 23:58:33 <*away> Commands: away [-quiet], back [-quiet], delete , ping, show, save, enabletimer, disabletimer, settimer , timer 23:58:33 hm 23:58:34 nice 23:58:39 oh wait 23:58:41 that is auto away 23:58:43 not away log 23:58:51 * AnMaster checks what module is the right one 23:59:05 http://en.znc.in/wiki/Modules 23:59:09 I hate software like this. 23:59:21 "Our core program does nothing! You have to trawl through our huge module list and pick them out. SO ELEGANT" 23:59:38 mib_8oomfc, hm I actually like it that way 23:59:46 ircds where you can configure what you want exactly 23:59:57 I know an ircd that even has server-server linking as a module 23:59:58 :)