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03:19:20 <Warrigal> I want to improvise a natural language again.
03:22:04 <Warrigal> Take words from any language but English, and stick them together until a language forms.
03:22:44 <Warrigal> Alternatively, use numbers instead of words.
03:24:41 <Warrigal> It sounds so fun that I'm going to go do something else, unless someone else is actually interested.
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15:36:55 <flexo> i while ago i wrote a toadskin interpreter (because the reference implementation is so buggy .. it's not usable to any extend) and wrote hanoi in my "improved" TS (where improved means i got rid of the stupid "ring buffer" and fixed the interpreter bugs)
15:37:15 <flexo> i'm very positive that this toadskin is not yet TC in any way
15:37:31 <flexo> as you have only one stack (there is also the callstack, but it's not possible to store anything but return "addresses" so...)
15:37:46 <flexo> you can do "useful" things with it ofcourse
15:37:49 <flexo> now, i'm wondering
15:38:02 <flexo> if you'd have it save the accumulator on the callstack
15:38:10 <flexo> would that maybe make it TC?
15:38:25 <flexo> well, give it a thought then :P
15:39:11 <flexo> it would most definitly not be possible to implement arbitrary algorithms in this "new TS"
15:39:30 <flexo> as emulation of a tape is limited to one side by not being able to define as many words as one wishes
15:39:39 <flexo> (there are only so many characters)
15:39:47 <flexo> it may be enough to implement a brainfuck interpreter
15:40:18 <flexo> and i believe this counts as TC - considering that that (2,3) TM is universal.
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15:40:56 <flexo> feel free to share your thoughts
15:41:06 <flexo> and, showing off, ofcourse:
15:41:41 <flexo> :w<%>;:a>[-w+w];:s>[-w-w];:d<%w[-w+%w+%w];:yd>%<;:c[-];:mw[-w%<%ya>%w]%>c;:r>%w%<%;:o>[w.>-];:1+<;:211a;:z2a;:31z;:42z;:53z;:64z;:86z;:Z48m;:Y85;:AYa5ma1o;:Bc%AZd64a3mad1sZ4oA25m1o;:C%y%ya3%s;:DC%>rrEr;:Ed>[>-<rD%y%yC%>Brrr%D%C%>%rr>+<c];:FZdYa2ma;:G,<Ya5ms,c%;:HZYm1a88m3ad2s33m5m%Ym6o;Fd2m1sdd44ms%d52ms5zz8a4m5zo,<86ms,cFd4s2m1adzd3a8z5zm6oHGFd2m5s43m5zm4oHGE
15:42:18 <flexo> you obviously need a working interpreter, provided here: http://flexotec.eu/~flexo/toadskin.rb
15:45:16 <flexo> let's assume that the maximum program length is limited for example
15:46:12 <flexo> that's the question
15:46:43 <flexo> as an UTM (which is considered to be the measure for TC, right?) has no program at all
15:47:02 <flexo> being the initial tape content
15:47:42 <flexo> if my ITS (improved toadskin.. yes! just made that up!) has just enough definable words to implement a BF interpreter that should do the trick
15:48:16 <flexo> or just enough words to implement that (2,3) TM, but that would just be sick
15:48:45 <flexo> should be much easier though
15:49:15 <flexo> but my plan would be to write a BF-to-ITS compiler
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15:49:37 <flexo> (which i think is do-able and the easiest approach given the similiarities between ITS and BF)
15:49:55 <flexo> and use it to compile daniel's BF-BF interpreter
15:51:59 <flexo> (daniel b cristofani doesn't happen to hang out around here? :)
15:52:32 <flexo> heh. i'll stay then, say hello
15:52:49 <flexo> had some discussions with him on that bf ml a couple of years ago
15:53:27 <flexo> he helped me perfect the brainfuck division algorithm :)
15:53:52 <flexo> that is [->>+<-[>>>]>[[<+>-]>+>>]<<<<<]
15:54:00 <flexo> (my initial version was 5 bytes longer or something like that)
15:54:29 <flexo> he even came up with an even shorter one, but with messed up cell layout
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15:56:57 <flexo> ah.. so much never-released esolang stuff in my projects folder
15:57:04 <flexo> i really need a personal homepage or something like that
15:57:16 <flexo> http://flexotec.eu/~flexo/hanoi2.b.txt
15:57:20 <flexo> never released that either
15:57:26 <flexo> (that email address is no longer valid :)
15:57:51 <flexo> and my current yapi.b is some bytes shorter than the one in the archive i think
15:58:15 <flexo> i even found a documented version
15:58:22 <flexo> but that's a tradesecret
15:59:55 <flexo> and poor pinky was never released too
16:00:24 <flexo> (a heavy-optimizing brainfuck x86 compiler... afaik the fastest implementation around, by some orders of magnitude..)
16:00:54 <mib_prms12> flexo: ais523 has been working on gcc-bf
16:00:56 <flexo> even faster than that optimizing to-c compiler + gcc -O3
16:00:58 <mib_prms12> It's a gcc backend that outputs brainfuck.
16:01:17 <flexo> well. i think my compiler should still be faster
16:01:20 <mib_prms12> flexo: Maybe yours would be useful for handling the 5-thousand->s-in-a-rows it produces ;-)
16:01:25 <flexo> because compiling brainfuck is more decompilation than compilation
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16:02:05 <flexo> i always thought about doing that (a c=>bf compiler, not a gcc backend...)
16:02:19 <flexo> my compiler is quite good at optimizing auto-generated code
16:02:32 <flexo> what's problematic are obviously unbalanced loops
16:02:38 <mib_prms12> gcc-bf, being a gcc backend, should eventually handle just about all conforming C programs
16:02:51 <mib_prms12> flexo: ais523 has some musings on that
16:02:52 <flexo> but balanced loops can easily be translated in while loops, if statements, load/store, multiplication and MAC
16:03:19 <flexo> http://flexotec.eu/~flexo/triangle.txt
16:03:26 <flexo> ^ this is what triangle.b looks like after optimization
16:03:32 <flexo> (this is my IL later compiled to x86 code)
16:03:48 <mib_prms12> flexo: there's another optimizing implementation
16:04:13 <mib_prms12> flhttp://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/bf2c.hs
16:04:15 <mib_prms12> http://esolangs.org/files/brainfuck/impl/bf2c.hs
16:04:20 <mib_prms12> you should steal some of its optimizations ;-)
16:04:45 <mib_prms12> it's Haskell, of course it's concise ;-)
16:05:14 <flexo> most of my compiler is optimization too...
16:05:25 <flexo> a large part i spend in optimizing the multiplications
16:05:42 <flexo> (as in... what do i do, MUL, SHL, LEA, or some weird combination?)
16:06:12 <flexo> can you execute that?
16:06:17 <flexo> and give me the output for triangle.b?
16:06:26 <flexo> i'd love to compare - have no haskell implementation installed ofcourse :)
16:07:20 <flexo> there are more than one?
16:07:44 <flexo> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/triangle.bf
16:08:05 <flexo> i renamed all extensions to clarify what exact bf dialect they need.. triangle is portable, hence just "b" ;)
16:08:31 <mib_prms12> flexo: http://pastie.org/346994.txt?key=wz8d6rjprfvm30diqckiw
16:08:47 <mib_prms12> that initial comment isn't optimized out, heh
16:09:31 <flexo> i think my tree is somewhat better
16:09:44 <flexo> that one doesn't compile to "if" statements
16:09:53 <flexo> (and mine removes dead code :)
16:10:11 <flexo> it also does no constant propagation for the pointer
16:10:14 <mib_prms12> flexo: yours doesn't remove the first loop.
16:10:44 <flexo> well, i've been messing around with it for the last days
16:10:51 <flexo> mine does constant propagation of p
16:10:58 <flexo> (which is why at the beginning it uses a[])
16:11:04 <flexo> and it translates while to if, where possible
16:11:15 <mib_prms12> flexo: wouldn't a program such as this mess yours up?
16:11:23 <mib_prms12> or would it recognize that [-] sets to 0
16:11:38 <flexo> after any loop i know that the current cell must be zero
16:12:45 <flexo> yea.. what about it?
16:12:57 <flexo> it still knows that p[-1] is 0
16:13:13 <flexo> if that's what you mean
16:13:24 <flexo> well, after the > it's p[-1]
16:13:59 <flexo> (this happens only implicitly by those "for" loops)
16:14:06 <flexo> they represent unbalanced loops
16:14:37 <flexo> quite good optimization
16:14:47 <flexo> but i'm very certain that my compiler is faster
16:15:03 <flexo> for the simple reason, that when i translate my IL to C, and let GCC compile it it's much slower
16:15:12 <flexo> than the IL=>x86 asm translation my compiler does
16:15:24 <flexo> (depending on the program as much as 50%)
16:15:53 <flexo> and i haven't even started doing register allocation :)
16:17:58 <flexo> most of the effort went into determining whether or not a loop will be entered under what conditions (and how many times it runs)
16:18:08 <flexo> as this usually leads to many subsequent optimizations
16:18:18 <flexo> (my compiler is very multi-pass-y)
16:18:37 <flexo> but even the largest bf programs take just 7 passes or so
16:18:53 <flexo> (due to the huge amount of hacks i have in the compiler, allowing it to never restart a pass...)
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16:19:37 <flexo> interesting though, as i output the assembly via printf() it becomes faster when increasing the optimization level :)
16:19:57 <flexo> (although compression of >>> and +++ is done at the parser level)
16:20:36 <flexo> i really want to rewrite it.
16:20:48 <flexo> this time with some proper CFG representation
16:21:00 <flexo> maybe even with SSA
16:21:08 <flexo> and register allocation
16:21:58 <flexo> yes, i definitly want SSA
16:22:08 <flexo> right now it's too much hacking around with the IL tree
16:22:18 <flexo> (there is a reason why those MAC and MULs have to be inside a LOAD...)
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16:27:26 <flexo> but that "proper representation" would still need a tight coupling to the AST
16:27:47 <flexo> because most useful optimzations for BF must be done on a high level
16:27:53 <flexo> just thinking loud :)
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18:30:15 <Mony> i'm going to release a new esolang
18:30:45 <Mony> i'm writing tutorial
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19:33:22 <AnMaster> and esoteric was the one entry before in the list
19:36:28 * AnMaster goes to edit firefox files manually
19:38:37 <Mony> AnMaster, why not install a "real" IRC client, like mIRC or XChat ?
19:38:59 <AnMaster> I was talking about parting #firefox
19:39:02 <ais523|direct> Mony: I think AnMaster was trying to part #firefox
19:39:43 <Mony> i thank you used chatzilla
19:40:36 <Mony> i don't remember the word -_-
19:40:57 <Mony> yah that's it ais523... "tought"
19:41:02 <oklopol> the perfect is changing to thunk, but thank i haven't heard yet
19:41:02 <AnMaster> wtf why are there hundreds of entries like: user_pref("print.tmp.printerfeatures.CUPS/HPPSC2175.can_change_colorspace", false);
19:41:24 <AnMaster> if that is temporary why is it saved
19:41:42 <Mony> my english is really crappy sometimes
19:41:43 <ais523|direct> it's actually a German grammar file, ending .TimeMannerPlace, just they abbreviated it
19:42:14 <ais523|direct> Mony: don't worry, I'm used to it, non-English English is much more logical than English English...
19:42:21 <ais523|direct> AnMaster: I was trying very hard to come up with a plausible explanation
19:48:05 <AnMaster> nice firefox profile contains 2 types of databases: BDB and sqlite
19:49:03 <AnMaster> oh and bookmarks is a html file
19:49:15 <AnMaster> "<!DOCTYPE NETSCAPE-Bookmark-file-1>"
19:49:42 <ais523|direct> rare to see SGML outside HTML, though, everyone uses XML instead nowadays
19:49:45 <AnMaster> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
19:49:55 <AnMaster> <DT><H3 LAST_MODIFIED="1229589330" PERSONAL_TOOLBAR_FOLDER="true" ID="rdf:#$FvPhC3">Bookmarks Toolbar Folder</H3>
19:49:55 <AnMaster> <DD>Add bookmarks to this folder to see them displayed on the Bookmarks Toolbar
19:50:25 <ais523|direct> it's probably to do with things like PERSONAL_TOOLBAR_FOLDER="true", that isn't HTML either
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19:51:14 <AnMaster> ais523, but it does have certain html like parts, such as element names
19:51:43 <ais523> probably based on HTML, but then customised to taste
19:52:04 * ais523 reminds themself not to use idioms which are rare even in English
19:58:18 <Mony> http://mony.servhome.org/esolang/h0rR0r.html
19:58:36 * ais523 never really liked l33t-speak
19:58:40 <Mony> i have to go, i will be back soon i think, or maybe tomorrow
19:59:08 <ais523> do you have any sort of loops?
19:59:13 <ais523> that looks to me like a slightly more useful version of Deadfish
19:59:48 <Mony> i impleted goto
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20:01:04 <Mony> but, there is some time ago, i don't really remember how they work
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20:09:12 <Judofyr> has anyone played with a self-parsing language?
20:09:21 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:10:10 <Judofyr> as in defining syntax on-the-go
20:10:23 <ais523> although that isn't exactly an esolang
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20:11:01 * oerjan recalls oklopol's oklotalk does something like that
20:11:04 * mib_1svng6 ponders how to word (shark swallows: fish) with a message in front of shark.
20:11:26 <mib_1svng6> (shark swallow: fish) is what i'm trying to do
20:11:58 <ais523> mib_1svng6: I'd prefer Smalltalk-style functions if it was function argname1: arg1 argname2: arg2
20:12:06 <ais523> rather than just function: arg1 argname2: arg2
20:12:13 <ais523> it can read weirdly the way it's done
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20:31:40 <mib_1svng6> http://pastie.org/347087.txt?key=7nq72c67tfr5dibntn0w
20:31:50 <mib_1svng6> It's prototype-based but also multimethod.
20:32:00 <mib_1svng6> Everything there is a regular method call -- no special syntax -- well ,except for the comment.
20:32:38 <ais523> aargh, that looks like a mix between Smalltalk and C
20:33:07 <ais523> I'm not saying what it is, just what it looks like, visually
20:39:13 <ais523> to have to use "the:" as part of a function name just to make it parse as English
20:39:18 <ais523> it's what INTERCAL would do, or COBOL
20:39:22 <mib_1svng6> your opinion is well-argued, interesting and relevant. I will take notice of it.
20:51:00 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or is ehird missing a lot of opportunities to make fun of me?
20:51:38 <ais523> Sgeo: that was a dangerous statement to make
20:51:43 <ais523> either that, or he's got you on ignore
20:51:54 <ais523> anyway, I need only mention PSOX and the whole channel will come down laughing again, presumably
20:54:30 <fungot> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH ...too much output!
20:55:55 <mib_1svng6> SgeoIs it just me, or is ehird missing a lot of opportunities to make fun of me?
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20:56:23 <Sgeo> ehird, in another channel, I was talking about a game I wanted to clone
20:56:32 * oerjan swats the raw tab character -----###
20:57:10 <Sgeo> I mentioned how so far, I duplicated the appearance of one of the items, and how I have absolutely no creativity
20:57:30 <ais523> but ehird wasn't in that channel, how could he make fun of you on the basis of that until you told him?
20:57:43 <ais523> also, thutubot's down because eso-std.org is
20:57:49 <ais523> maybe I should get it running on another server
20:58:04 <Sgeo> ais523, you know why eso-std.org's down, right?
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20:58:32 <ais523> Sgeo: yes, ehird wiped it and hasn't installed any software on there yet
20:58:51 <Sgeo> ais523, you know why ehird wiped it?
20:59:07 <oerjan> wait, was that the dread chmod -R ?
20:59:13 <ais523> no, it was a deliberate wipe
20:59:19 <ais523> ehird thought it had got too crufty
20:59:24 <ais523> and wanted to do a mass package uninstall
20:59:24 * Sgeo assumed it was the chmod -R
20:59:40 * Sgeo wipes assumptions
20:59:57 <oerjan> infinite gnomes, would that be gnomegas?
21:00:18 <oklopol> languages need more complex syntax
21:00:30 <oklopol> there's nearly no ambiguous syntax out there
21:00:38 <oklopol> except for my languages, but i don't get them finished, so.
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21:01:05 * oerjan swats some time flies -----###
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21:02:34 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
21:03:00 <oerjan> *ouch* really bad aerodynamics
21:03:03 <oklopol> but i think feather is the coolest self-parser sofar
21:03:38 <oklopol> also ais523 is here, cool. unfortunately i'm busy soon
21:03:42 <ais523> yes, but it hurts even my brain, and I invented it!
21:03:46 * oerjan invents Banana Feather, it sort of fits in here
21:04:08 <oklopol> i would've harrassed you about continuous brainfuck
21:04:23 <oerjan> it even fits with the gnomegas
21:04:27 <oklopol> tried oerjan, but he prefers his bf discrete :<
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21:04:59 <Sgeo> I'd ask how continuous BF works, but I g2g
21:05:21 <oklopol> you can start these scopes which are like []'s, but incs and decs inside them work with differentials, considering everything outside the loop infinitely greater than one + or - inside it will add
21:05:44 * oerjan thinks a banana could fly with enough gnome-gas in it
21:05:45 <oklopol> basically you have an infinite descent of differentials, each infinitely smaller than the last
21:06:00 <ais523> uh-oh, I see what you mean now, and that's pretty esoteric
21:06:10 <ais523> it sort of is to BF as nopol is to digital logic
21:06:13 * oerjan watches the universe implode from pun overload
21:06:16 <oklopol> yeah, old idea, but i think i know what went wrong last time
21:06:51 <oklopol> i'm not sure what nopol and digital logic have in common
21:07:10 <ais523> well, nopol and ordinary logic then
21:07:13 <oerjan> can't quite put your finger on it?
21:07:24 <oklopol> oerjan: i don't have fingers
21:07:40 <oklopol> ais523: nopol isn't that illogical
21:07:48 * oerjan always suspected oklopol was a tentacled being
21:08:15 <ais523> oklopol: no, but it uses continuous probabilities, rather than discrete logic levels
21:08:16 <oerjan> the l's are just deceptions
21:08:19 <ais523> that's what I was trying to get at
21:08:48 <oklopol> nopol is a list-rewriting language based on lambda calculus and the nopular paradigm
21:09:31 <oerjan> nopular sounds like a skin disorder
21:10:15 <oklopol> ais523: actually that may not be an accurate analogy either, anymore, i'm redesigning noprob to be more discrete
21:10:33 * oerjan finds no google hit that isn't a misspelling of popular, or nonsensical
21:10:46 <oklopol> i mean, i think so. i've had a lot of ideas, but i can't really seem to get the whole to work.
21:11:04 <oklopol> oerjan: nopular = based on nop
21:11:49 <oerjan> -ul- is otherwise a diminutive suffix
21:11:53 <oklopol> ais523: actually i will harrass you a bit, although about something else. just warning you because i've seen AnMaster do it, and he's my idol i want to be like him.
21:12:31 <oklopol> AnMaster: you were a victim of the random.
21:12:50 <oerjan> oklopol does random acts of praise?
21:13:53 <oklopol> oerjan: i do random everything
21:15:15 <mib_vg1sr6> oklopol: oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol oklopol
21:15:57 <oklopol> mememememememememememememememe
21:16:13 <oerjan> mememe is the new meme for me
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21:38:28 * oerjan trusts that this makes sense somehow
21:38:44 <ais523> oerjan: it makes sense in context; however, the context itself does not make sense
21:41:30 <Warrigal> The context itself makes plenty of sense.
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21:57:34 <GregorR> Since when does xchat crash all the effing time X_X
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