00:02:09 -!- grndlvlbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 00:04:22 I still say that there should be an ordered directory structure in filesystems. 00:06:45 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 00:15:40 ordered directory structure? 00:15:53 ehird: how did you generate it? 00:15:54 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 00:16:01 i didnt generate it 00:16:03 i stole it 00:16:03 :P 00:16:36 err right, would've been quite fast 00:18:50 -!- Corun has joined. 00:19:59 bah seems not to converge 00:23:29 what happens? 00:23:54 This pangram contains zero a's, zero b's, zero c's, zero d's, zero e's, zero f's, zero g's, zero h's, zero i's, zero k's, zero l's, zero m's, zero n's, zero o's, zero p's, zero q's, zero s's, zero t's, zero u's, zero v's, zero w's, zero x's, zero y's, zero z's, zero apostrophes, zero commas, zero spaces, and one period. 00:25:32 That's not very accurate. 00:26:16 oerjan: *same question* 00:40:53 oklopol: i didn't check for longer cycles, let me see 00:41:22 (btw i started with the string "abc...z") 00:41:50 also i used "no" rather than "zero", not that it was ever used of course 00:42:39 -!- kerlo has left (?). 00:46:30 oops 01:00:02 ah 01:00:35 "This Pangram contains four a's, one b, two c's, one d, thirty-one e's, five f's, seven g's, nine h's, thirteen i's, one j, one k, one l, two m's, nineteen n's, fourteen o's, two p's, one q, six r's, twenty-seven s's, twenty t's, three u's, five v's, seven w's, three x's, three y's, & one z." repeats after 126 steps 01:04:29 and does not appear until about 1008 steps after a..z 01:05:08 i just did not wait long enought the first times i tried 01:42:16 -!- GregorR has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:45:31 -!- Dewio has joined. 01:57:40 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 03:49:04 This pangram contains your mom. 03:51:51 That is not a pangram. 04:10:57 SPAM SPAM WONDERFUL SPAM 04:12:10 there's an algo for pangrams. what is it? 04:13:05 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 04:14:04 you mean self-describing pangrams? pangram alone just means something containing every letter 04:14:28 yes, self describing pangrams :P 04:15:54 that would be constraint solving i think. or maybe something evolutionary... 04:15:58 i suspect its solvable with a linear equation 04:16:21 i strongly doubt that 04:17:12 the number -> vector of letters in numeral mapping is complicated 04:18:41 i dunno man 04:18:57 there must be a way! 04:18:57 :p 04:19:07 by evolutionary i mean, you could use an iteration like i did, but then do a random change when you got stuck 04:20:44 only 16 letters actually appear in the numbers 1-99, that reduces search space 04:25:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangram 04:26:06 i wonder if the example posted above was pasted from there 04:26:37 if so, it was computed with dedicated hardware 04:27:01 mind you that was in 1984 so obviously an ordinary computer should be able to do it now 04:27:27 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 04:27:27 its an autogram is what it is 04:27:30 thats the real term 04:27:46 looks identical on a glance 04:27:56 autograms are self describing 04:27:59 pangrams contain all the letters 04:28:11 its merely coincidental that some autograms can also be pangrams 04:28:24 yes but i guess making them also pangrams probably is not that much worse 04:28:44 likely. 04:30:43 the page speaks of Binary Decision Diagrams 04:30:53 yes 04:31:00 now if wikipedia wasn't constantly locking up... 04:36:38 which probably means that they are essentially solving it by reducing to a case of an NP-complete problem... 04:37:04 not very promising :D 04:37:13 D: 04:37:34 i enjoy understanding what P and NP mean 04:37:57 but not so much hitting into them, eh? 04:38:05 what? 04:38:51 but you don't enjoy quite as much having to solve NP-complete problems... 04:39:37 never had to try :P 04:41:18 actually most interesting puzzles are probably human-sized (small!) versions of NP-complete problems 04:43:26 what 04:46:13 sudoku for example, becomes NP-complete if you have arbitrary board size and non-unique solutions 04:46:52 hm 04:47:34 -!- CakeProphet has quit ("lol"). 05:27:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:51:46 -!- moozilla has joined. 06:04:06 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:34:00 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:38:29 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 07:08:09 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 07:12:53 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:31:30 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:32:04 -!- Asztal has joined. 07:58:23 hm. looking at that mess... i'm really proud of it :) <-- optimizing? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:07:14 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:14:05 -!- MizardX has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:14:05 -!- oerjan has quit (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:14:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:14:11 -!- MizardX has joined. 08:19:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 08:26:32 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:26:40 -!- moozilla has joined. 08:33:26 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi. 08:42:53 -!- moozilla has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:42:54 -!- metazilla has joined. 08:56:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("e disasterous."). 10:54:35 that pangram problem would be quite hard to show np-complete given english numbers aren't exactly that simple 10:55:09 and of course it would trivially be in p if you just had the english numbers and the english alphabet, because a solution is known 10:55:20 a problem instance can't really be np-complete 10:56:49 but you could probably include subset sum somehow given the ability to specify the alphabet and the way to represent numerals 10:57:11 not that i can think very coherently this early 10:57:14 shuppe -> 11:16:22 At least it becomes meaningful to talk about its algoritmic complexity if alphabet and numerics used are variable. 11:17:12 yes 11:17:27 but i can't find a simple way to encode anything in it 11:18:01 i think i'm close to getting it, but i don't really have the time atm 11:18:52 But is that problem even in NP (i.e. it does not blow up superpolynomially)? 11:19:09 In solution size that is... 11:19:14 it's trivially in np, you can just count characters and their amounts. 11:19:25 *character amounts 11:20:04 given numerics, an alphabet and a solution, just check the solution contains only pieces of the alphabet, and for all characters, their amount is represented with the correct numeric 11:20:31 oh 11:20:35 i see what you mean 11:21:12 well we need to be polynomial on the size of the set of numerics 11:21:27 i can't see a way to get a superpolynomial solution 11:21:57 What could happen is similar to what happens in Sokoban: The solution chains can blow up exponetially -> PSPACE. 11:22:06 the solution is essentially an n-tuple of numerics, one representing each character's count in the whole tuple's numerics + 1 11:22:18 err 11:22:21 you don't need a solution chain 11:22:30 are we talking about the same thing? 11:22:31 Actually, the problem is not well-defined. How you encode numerics used? 11:22:50 i'm talking about generalizing "this pangram contains x1 a's, x2 b's..." 11:23:28 well just give a list of all the numerics you're allowed to use 11:23:39 if you need a bigger number, there's no solution 11:23:42 doesn't lose generality 11:24:02 That 'solution chain' referred to Sokoban. You can encode explicit solution, but it can be exponential in lenght, so Sokoban is not in NP (its in PSPACE). 11:24:36 well i don't know sokoban, i can look it up 11:24:46 yeah what does that have to do with this? 11:25:02 there's no chain here, you just calculate amounts, and see if the right numeric is in place 11:25:25 any solution will just be an n-tuple from the given set of numerics, where n is the size of the alphabet 11:25:49 there cannot be anything superpolynomial about that, because you have a polynomial-size tuple of polynomial-size objects 11:26:23 i mean i did understand what you meant by the solution chain thing 11:27:10 Bound for certificate space required is n*ceil(log2(k)), where n is number of alphabet and k is number of numerics. 11:27:12 but here we're just checking a solution, there's no computation involved in the solution checking, as is usual for np-completeness 11:27:40 no actually k should be the size of the largest numeric 11:28:00 well 11:28:04 right, yeah, that's okay too 11:28:34 you're just exploiting the fact the list is in the problem descriptino 11:28:37 *description 11:29:58 Even if numeric description size is logaritmic in numbers representable, then its still O(n*k)... 11:31:07 true 11:31:46 yeah it's the same as sokoban, counting the characters is the computation that can last an exponential amount 11:32:34 i was thinking there would be only a polynomial amount of polynomial numerics 11:32:55 err. then again, if you want the *number* of numerics to be polynomial 11:33:02 then the actual list of numerics is exponential 11:33:29 well. i guess it doesn't have to be 11:33:37 why would it, just could 11:34:14 blargh, if you keep talking to me, i'm going to have to start thinking at some poitn 11:34:16 *point 11:35:13 blah, yes you're right, might be pspace, should probably define it better 11:35:28 If there is some upper limit to numerics used, and representation of numerics in problem is at least logaritmic, then its in NP. 11:36:07 well i assumed a polynomial amount of numerics initially 11:37:18 basically you need the counting of characters to be in np, which that should guarantee, yes 11:38:31 but i never really even considered that, i assumed if there was a beautiful solution to encode something in it, you'd easily see if the result was checkable in polynomial time, and that i could define the problem after that 11:38:38 :-) 11:39:21 ah representation at least logarithmic so the character amounts can't get infinite, yes, good point 11:40:07 Ilari: approximately, where do you live? i'm such a patriot that i like to know that about finns 11:41:44 Actually, I think with logspace numerics, its not in NP. 11:41:48 oklopol: Helsinki. 11:42:31 The reason for that is that by increasing the alphabet size, you can make solution size blow up superpolynomially. 11:43:30 And the size of problem encoding is only logaritmic in alphabet size... 11:43:56 But the size of solution is linear in alphabet size -> exponential blowup. 11:44:30 well err, if the number of numerics is polynomial, and all their sizes are polynomial, i don't see what could go wrong. i mean there couldn't, then, be an exponential size solution because that would require an exponential input, right? 11:45:40 err the problem encoding also contains the numerics, so even if the solution is linear in alphabet size, it will only contain a small subset of the given set of numerics 11:45:53 err 11:46:20 what i mean is, you can't need an exponential amount of time to count the characters, because then you'd have an exponential amount of numerics in the input as well 11:48:22 i mean the crucial problem with getting an exponential blowup is we want the set of numerics as an explicit list 11:48:49 if we just encoded it like, say, english does, in a logarithmic amount of rules, then we'd hit the linear in alphabet size problem 11:49:24 The problem comes from the fact that solution size is necressarily linear in number of alphabet, but the problem description size is linear in number of bits in alphabet size. 11:52:42 i don't think so, if we need the numerics to be given explicitly. we can only use time O(|set of numerics|) to count characters 11:52:52 and if that needs to be polynomial, i don't see a problem 11:54:37 just like, if you're given a graph with n connected components, and you need to find the biggest subset of those components whose union size is smaller than a given number 11:55:22 you can just use dynamic programming, because the input size contains the numbers in "unary", just like in here 11:55:33 s/input size/input 11:56:17 It takes exponential time just to iterate through the alphabet... 11:56:50 the alphabet size is polynomial, so what do you mean? 11:57:37 What in problem input is linear in size of alphabet? 11:58:36 the tuple that is the solution is linear in the size of the alphabet, it has an element for each character 11:59:20 Exactly. But I don't see that the input has to be linear in size of alphabet... 11:59:50 the checking problem requires you to, for each character (linear in size of alphabet), count the number of those characters in the numbers (linear in size of set of numberics and their representation) 12:00:04 Ilari: umm, so you can have an exponential input? 12:00:17 then, it takes exponential time to check the numbers are even in the set of numerics. 12:00:24 thus clearly it isn't in np. 12:00:45 the crucial point is how we encode the numerics, i assumed they were given explicitly, in a list. 12:03:00 are you perhaps implicitly assuming the set of numerics can be represented in logarithmic space? 12:03:33 at least if it could, you would be correct, it would not be in np 12:04:26 anyway, i need to go read my book, we're not really getting anywhere arguing about... well not sure what :P 12:04:29 * oklopol goes -> 13:04:46 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:13:47 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:38:45 -!- Corun has joined. 13:45:15 -!- jix has joined. 14:01:04 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:07:22 -!- jix has joined. 14:18:07 -!- jix has quit ("..."). 14:18:28 http://img.secretareaofvipquality.net/src/1230134229081.jpg 14:18:29 D: 14:19:39 i don't get it 14:20:16 LISP 14:20:21 I don't know either. 14:20:38 ('A')? 14:21:46 Nop 14:21:53 It's universal quantifier 14:22:30 and it's upside down why? 14:22:49 ... 14:22:57 Owait 14:22:59 You're right. 14:23:10 It's usually an universal quantifier. 14:23:18 It are supposed to be a mona kittun 14:24:34 wut? 14:24:51 ASCII art stuff on the chans. 14:32:07 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 15:09:16 -!- Corun has joined. 16:04:15 -!- ehird has set topic: i don't eat your face | man | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 16:07:57 06:18:28 http://img.secretareaofvipquality.net/src/1230134229081.jpg <-- lol 16:55:59 * AnMaster looks around 16:56:26 hello ehird my friend! 16:56:38 I don't eat your face. Man. 16:56:42 * ehird is possibly tired. 16:56:51 hehe 16:57:22 also what do you think about irregular webcomic today? 16:57:32 ehird, I think the annotation rocked 16:57:41 * ehird checks 16:58:18 heh 16:58:28 * AnMaster waits while ehird reads it 16:58:36 I skimmed the annotation, mostly. 16:58:40 But I got the gist :P 16:58:50 ehird, which is? 16:59:02 "You are my reader. I hate you." 16:59:28 hm I would say: "black body radiation and how it can be used to figure out temperature or stars and distance to them" 16:59:41 The intentions are what matters :-P 16:59:45 also a bit about general relativity 16:59:50 ehird, but I liked it! 16:59:57 Then he has failed :P 17:00:05 * ehird predicts that the comic will now fade to octarine 17:00:10 ehird, he has done such annotations a few times before 17:00:31 ehird, err that isn't inside the sRGB space is it? 17:00:41 sRGB is for squares. 17:01:11 err no, triangles, though square colour spaces would be possible I think 17:01:25 ~ 17:01:52 ehird, what colour space are apple monitors? 17:02:01 sRGB? :-P 17:02:12 Well. 17:02:19 System Preferences says "iMac". 17:02:27 It also has "sRGB Profile" as an alternative. 17:02:30 I would have assumed some wider one like AdobeRGB or such 17:02:36 Which mainly seems to be darker. 17:02:44 And it makes the text anti-aliasing look bad. 17:02:53 well no monitor matches a colour space exactly 17:02:57 AnMaster: it also has adobe rgb. 17:03:01 and ntsc, and PAL. 17:03:03 and god knows what. 17:03:10 well but what can the monitor actually show? 17:03:15 bbl, someone at the door 17:03:22 AnMaster: I'm not sure. 17:04:05 -_- Jehovas witness... 17:05:04 I assume they exist over in UK too? 17:05:07 Yeah. 17:05:27 I think we've only ever got one her. I want more so I can waste their time :( 17:06:34 well I wonder why they keep bothering with our house after my father once (3rd time same year or so) decided to start to try to convert them about Buddhism. No visits for a few years after that, but seems they started again last year or so 17:06:46 s/about/to/ 17:07:27 I saw it happen btw, was quite funny 17:07:47 lol 17:08:06 AnMaster: there's a way to get them stop coming 17:08:10 i forget what the term is 17:08:10 but 17:08:12 oh? 17:08:19 if you tell them you used to be one, but got excommunicated(?I think?) 17:08:20 bbl, _expected_ guest here 17:08:30 their strict rules are that they CANNOT come there ever again 17:08:34 (because you're a devil or something) 17:13:57 AnMaster: "Disfellowshipping" it seems 17:13:58 ehird, well that is no fun 17:14:09 There are over 30 violations for which a member can be disfellowshipped [21], including: Abortion, adultery, apostasy, bestiality, voluntary blood transfusions, drug abuse, drunkenness, extortion, fornication, fraud, gambling, heresy, homosexual activity, idolatry, incest, interfaith activity, loose conduct[22], manslaughter, murder, perverted sex relations[23], polygamy, pornography[24], sexual abuse, spiritism, theft, and use of tobacco. 17:14:14 OH NO, PORNOGRAPHY 17:14:19 better to try to convert them to Buddhism or such 17:14:35 voluntary blood transfusions? 17:14:41 why on earth 17:14:49 AnMaster: apparently blood is sacred. 17:14:59 blood transfusions are strictly forbidden for jehova's witnesses 17:15:02 even in case of emergency 17:15:58 gotta love cults 17:15:59 gambling huh..., so they can't play chess or anything? 17:16:30 Arguably that's not gambling. 17:16:31 :P 17:16:44 ah so gambling is just when it is about money or? 17:17:14 Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period. 17:17:18 -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling 17:17:19 anyway trying to convert them to Buddhism really get them confused, which is great fun. 17:17:40 ehird, so they don't like stock markets? 17:18:04 because you could describe that as close to that 17:18:05 Stock markets aren't gambling in public opinion, for some unfathomable reason. 17:18:22 agreed you would need to bend the definition of "wager", but not much 17:18:50 btw, imaginary colors rock 17:19:20 Yes. 17:19:25 I want a new colour. :-P 17:20:14 If a saturated green is viewed until the green receptors are fatigued and then a saturated red is viewed, a perception of red more intense than pure spectral red can be experienced. This is due to the fatigue of the green receptors and the resulting lack of their ability to desaturate the perceptual response to the output of the red receptors.[2] Kodak engineered Epcot's pavement to be a certain hue of pink so that the grass would look greener through th 17:20:17 e reverse of this effect.[citation needed] 17:20:19 Cooooooo 17:22:07 Hm. 17:22:12 I should compile something to llvm. 17:22:23 Maybe a nice lil' OOP language or something. 17:22:29 well why not just use the Lab colour space 17:22:41 Is it possible to write an LLVM thing in non-C++? 17:22:50 ehird, yes iirc, they have a C interface 17:22:57 Apart from C? :P 17:23:14 ehird, well ocaml, since someone used the C interface to make an ocaml interface iirc 17:23:22 or was it making ocaml compile using llvm? 17:23:25 one of those 17:23:31 AnMaster: Why isn't it language agnostic? 17:23:44 ehird, well it could be, but you need to make an interface 17:23:56 That's not language agnostic. 17:23:59 iirc both python and perl can interface C libraries 17:24:07 ehird, the bytecode spec format is open 17:24:12 you could write your own generator 17:24:18 Bleh 17:24:34 ehird, but what do you suggest instead of a library with a standard interface? 17:25:18 AnMaster: A simple plaintext format that you can just pipe to llvm? 17:25:23 You know. UNIX. 17:25:24 sure 17:25:27 that exists 17:25:30 llvm byte code asm 17:25:31 :P 17:25:57 So why not use that? 17:26:05 indeed, why not? 17:26:17 Well, is it more complex than the API? 17:26:36 ehird, iirc the llvm website have info somewhere on it comparing pros and cons of those different ways 17:26:44 OK. 17:27:53 http://llvm.org/docs/FAQ.html#langirgen 17:27:58 against: the .ll parser is slower than the bitcode reader when interfacing to the middle end 17:28:01 that would be especially bad 17:28:08 as i'd like it to be fast enough for e.g. using it for a REPL 17:28:14 eval() and suchlike. 17:28:23 ehird, yes could be a problem then 17:28:34 if you want to JIT stuff you probably need to use the API 17:28:50 I guess I might have to bite the bullet and use C. 17:28:55 Ugh, I'll have to use effing flex and yacc. 17:29:15 Well, I could use lemon instead of yacc. 17:29:16 Still, ugh 17:29:33 ehird, hm can't languages like python, ruby and perl interface C libraries? 17:29:41 I'm pretty sure at least python and perl can 17:29:54 Sure, I guess. 17:29:58 I'll try it 17:30:10 ehird, maybe someone already wrote a wrapper? Might be worth checking 17:30:10 Of course, it won't fit in with the rest of the code, oh well. 17:30:15 Yes, good point. 17:30:59 Of course, it won't fit in with the rest of the code, oh well. <--? 17:31:12 AnMaster: it'll take structs, etc 17:31:22 which I'll have to construct manually from the objects 17:31:29 well yes, I guess it will be easier to wrap the C API rather than the C++ one 17:31:39 at least you'll only have to deal with POD then 17:32:06 You know, writing this in a HLL might be a bit stupid. 17:32:08 I'll go for C. 17:32:17 And, uh, s-expressions so I don't have to use flex/lemon. 17:32:28 ... even though I don't really want to use s-exprs, but oh well 17:32:44 ehird, HLL? 17:32:57 High level language. 17:33:02 ah right 17:33:09 what language did you plan to use to begin with? 17:33:25 Eh, just one of the typical scripting languages. But tying a HLL to another HLL would be silly. 17:33:25 iirc there is some llvm thing for haskell for example, but I may remember wrong 17:34:12 Ooh. That could be very nice. 17:34:18 Yes, I believe there is such a thing 17:34:30 That is so, so tempting. 17:34:49 ehird, well I don't know details, I think I was randomly browsing on ohloh or such 17:34:55 or viewing suggestions for the stack there 17:35:03 I saw it a few days ago on reddit, I think, actually! 17:35:18 AUR (en) - haskell-llvm 17:35:18 24 Dec 2008 ... http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/llvm ... http:// hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/llvm/0.4.1.0/llvm-0.4.1.0. ... 17:35:18 aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=18018 - 7k - Cached - Similar pages - 17:35:18 hm 17:35:20 http://augustss.blogspot.com/2009/01/llvm-llvm-low-level-virtual-machine-is.html 17:35:29 Also, yeah, it's on hackage: http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/llvm 17:36:10 Thing about compiling to llvm is that I have to learn someone _else's_ arcane assembly, instead of inventing my own ;-) 17:36:16 ehird, oh also if you plan to mess with x86_64 and llvm use svn version 17:36:22 I hit some bugs in last release 17:36:29 I don't think I need 64-bit for this. 17:36:31 when you used -march and -O 17:36:36 on x86_64 17:36:41 I'm basically inspired by this: http://github.com/why/potion/tree/master 17:37:11 ehird, on last release you can get llvm-gcc to ICE in stage2 of bootstrapping itself 17:37:20 http://github.com/why/potion/commits/master <- Wow, that's some activity 17:38:08 ehird, interesting, and that uses llvm? 17:38:11 Nope 17:38:15 Custom VM 17:38:21 Also has a JIT 17:38:22 for x86 17:38:28 but works on non-x86, just slower 17:38:40 so it uses a custom written JIT for x86 and x86_64 (it says so in README) 17:38:43 huh 17:38:55 how old is the project? 17:39:02 I think, um, a few weeks. 17:39:07 considering the activity level I would assume fairly new 17:39:07 Maybe a month or two. 17:39:15 well 17:39:16 why created repository potion 1 day ago 17:39:16 and the JIT actually works? 17:39:21 but he's worked on it for longer, presumably 17:39:28 AnMaster: yes 17:39:40 writing a good JIT takes time, lots of time 17:40:57 " * No error handling. I'm wary of just tossing 17:40:57 in exceptions and feeling rather uninspired 17:40:57 on the matter. Let's hear from you." 17:40:59 ah easy 17:41:02 reflection :P 17:41:03 * core: okay, first checkin. the parser is coming together. started this 17:41:03 on the 15th. 17:41:05 -- december 17:41:26 so he's developed a prototype with a working jit in less than a month. 17:41:38 of an object-oriented language with also a VM and interesting object model. 17:41:44 i swear that guy is paid to sit around all day and be awesome 17:42:05 ehird, well I can believe someone managed to write a well working JIT in less than a month if he was dedicated, and a OO lang... But both? No way 17:42:20 Well, there's your evidence. 17:42:23 Browse through the commits if you want. 17:43:00 well, what about work? Either rich enough to not need it or the company sponsors this, or something else 17:43:12 See: "i swear that guy is paid to sit around all day and be awesome" 17:43:19 ehird, yes I agreed with you 17:43:30 AnMaster: I think what you have to realise is that he's crazy as all hell. 17:43:48 Evidence: http://poignantguide.net/ruby/chapter-4.html (<-- this is from a _programming_ tutorial. Needs images.) 17:43:54 ehird, or he is a student, one of those who back in the 1970s would have rewritten unix over the weekend 17:44:20 More evidence: handwritten code, with coloured pencils. http://redhanded.hobix.com/cult/ahaNoticeTheExpandoWhichPrecludes.html 17:44:28 ehird, well he isn't too bad at drawing 17:44:33 certainly draws better than me 17:44:51 ehird, WHY ARE THERE NO PUNCH CARDS!? 17:45:00 AnMaster: don't give him ideas, man 17:45:11 ehird, interesting nick btw, "why" 17:45:34 his full name is actually why the lucky stiff. 17:45:38 Also he has a GUI toolkit called Shoes, singular. 17:45:40 Examine: 17:45:42 * AnMaster googles that 17:45:51 why's new toolkit, Shoes, is great. why the lucky stiff is so awesome. 17:46:15 wikipedia... "why the lucky stiff (often known simply as why or _why) is the persona of a prolific writer, cartoonist, musician, artist, and computer programmer notable for his work with the Ruby programming language." 17:46:18 hm 17:46:38 hm there is a photo too 17:47:17 also the wp article seems like a link dump 17:48:37 ehird, hm are you sure this is one person? 17:48:51 not several performing a practical joke of some weird sort 17:48:57 AnMaster: the theory that he is a collective has been put forward. The personality is a bit too consistent for that, though :P 17:49:48 * ehird decides to write language as custom vm language in Haskell. Maybe. 17:50:11 ehird, well I'd assume only one would do the drawing bit, to make it consistent, and so on. If not he is some sort of super-productive multi-skilled genius... 17:50:43 Alternative theory: He is a regular person who codes Java by day in a regular, messed-up javacorp. Wears a tie. 17:50:44 But. 17:50:49 Has a huge stash of LSD at home. 17:50:52 And an internet connection. 17:51:00 And coloured crayons. 17:51:27 would LSD do that? I don't know any details of the effects caused by that drug 17:51:44 Seems to fit :-P 17:51:58 ehird, ? 17:52:04 what 17:52:34 http://blog.nihilogic.dk/2009/01/genetic-mona-lisa.html <- the javascript demoscener takes up the genetic algorithms meme 17:53:20 genetic algorithms meme? When did genetic algorithms become a meme? 17:53:34 since everyone and his dog generated the mona lisa from polygons with it :P 17:54:03 ehird, didn't that one miss recombinating and so on? 17:54:10 dunno 17:55:46 I'm pretty sure I read about the original and it seemed to do a, .... forgot the word 17:56:02 stochastic hill climb 17:56:03 directed search or something 17:56:05 ah yes 17:56:08 that sounds right 17:56:55 * ehird names language poke 17:57:05 think I seen that used already 17:57:09 not 100% sure though 17:57:11 meh. 17:57:20 * ehird decides between C and Haskell while wondering why that's even a choice 17:57:50 ehird, well I never tried the haskell interface for llvm, #llvm can be found on OFTC (not freenode) 17:58:05 at least the official #llvm 17:58:10 I decided against llvm :P 17:58:18 ehird, writing your own JIT? 17:58:27 Probably just a regular VM to start with. 17:58:31 Y'know, sanity and all that. 17:58:47 well I guess _why doesn't have any of that 17:59:02 Well, nor do I. 17:59:33 ehird, and/or he could be somewhat like those famous composers, Mozart and such, brainchilds 18:00:04 or, LSD 18:01:10 maybe in 200 years people will talk about famous programmers from the twenty-first century(sp?), like we today talk about famous composers, writes and painters of previous centuries 18:01:12 :D 18:01:34 assuming spelling is correct for the last word 18:03:10 "Phamus pr0gramrz aften used ''fakneames'' to hyd3 deir tru identiti. Forexam, ``why the lucky stiff`` (inth oldspeak, "wot a lucki blighter")" 18:03:24 I disclaim all liability if English ends up like that in the future. 18:03:43 ehird, I certainly hope AOL speak doesn't take over the world 18:07:31 ehird, hm is there a linux C version of this genetic meme? 18:07:38 yes, I believe so 18:07:39 se 18:07:40 sec 18:08:03 AnMaster: http://github.com/mackstann/mona/tree 18:08:09 * AnMaster doesn't know his way around this strange blogosphere thing 18:08:09 written by the kind of person who writes everything in C :-P 18:08:44 woo, C 18:08:50 "velociraptor.png"? Is this the xkcd author? 18:08:58 hm nop 18:09:13 nope* 18:10:03 Badger: but but you come from #haskell 18:12:18 heh 18:12:30 can't use the language though 18:12:32 not one bit 18:12:49 my puny attempts failed, whereas C is more comprehendable 18:13:08 only because you're used to it 18:13:14 quite possibly 18:14:04 * ehird plots to have a component called mon in this language, so he can make horrible puns about pokemon 18:15:04 Badger, what other functional languages do you know? 18:15:14 none 18:15:27 ehird, I choose you! 18:15:46 GOTTA INTERPRET THEM ALL! umm, no. 18:16:19 ehird, about that "http://redhanded.hobix.com/cult/ahaNoticeTheExpandoWhichPrecludes.html" you linked, wtf is "expando"? 18:16:37 how about reading 18:16:38 the text 18:16:44 and the linked article 18:16:44 http://diveintomark.org/archives/2007/04/01/document-dot-wacko 18:16:51 * AnMaster looks for the link 18:16:53 ah yes 18:16:56 and I read the text 18:19:32 i promise that poke will have an expando method on all objects. 18:19:34 "“Precludes the functionality.” Awesome." <-- eh? what is odd with that? Sure, it isn't informal everyday language. So what? Yes I read the whole post, and I agree with the poster that the thing is very wtf. 18:19:45 but not that language remark 18:20:23 AnMaster: it is wtfy because it's worded ridiculously and sounds funny. 18:20:49 ridiculously? You mean bureaucratically? 18:20:52 no 18:20:54 ridiculously 18:21:00 hm ok 18:21:01 i think you'd have to be a native speaker :P 18:21:06 probably 18:21:43 when I translate it mentally it ends up as highly bureaucratic, but not ridiculous 18:21:54 sure sometimes bureaucratic == ridiculous 18:24:30 ehird, like (real world example, not urban myth, I know the person first hand who read this in a report from someone on the local city council, a journalist btw), translated from Swedish: "green fodder converting milk production unit" 18:24:34 guess what that meant 18:24:46 i'm scared to 18:24:57 ehird, oh? milk cow 18:25:05 guessed that :D 18:26:21 ehird, oh and I have heard (from another journalist, my mother in fact, and no jokes about that) another person at the same city council call "windows" "light inlets" 18:26:27 :D 18:26:46 ehird, at a press conference 18:26:48 * ehird thinks about writing a program that takes text and pounds it through a thesaurus to make it more beaurocratic 18:28:11 about building some new building, library or museum or something, and that there should be many "light inlets" to create a nice environment and such, and when the journalists asked what he meant with "light inlets" he said something like "oh, um... you know, light inlets, um.... um... windows!" 18:28:18 :D 18:28:22 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:28:38 ehird, I guess it is the same in UK? 18:28:43 pretty much. 18:29:59 hm and this was back in the 1980s, I wonder what they sound like now (said person no longer works as a journalist, she is teaching journalism instead) 18:31:36 * ehird attempts to hack up object.h into something that looks right 18:31:44 (from the null string) 18:34:14 ehird, oh about the "green fodder converting..." thing, the journalist in question called the person who had written it and asked, why he didn't use a normal word. And the person said that if you used "cow" it could mean either "milk cow" or "meat cow".... Yes both of those exists as direct translations to Swedish and yes he used them, no I don't think he was ever able to explain why he didn't just us 18:34:14 e "milk cow" 18:34:26 :D 18:35:17 * ehird wonders if state is actuallyneeded in objects, with sufficient magic 18:36:26 hah 18:36:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 18:36:57 i mean 18:37:06 you could do it as a method definiton like 18:37:24 hello <- newSlot 18:37:25 becomes 18:37:39 hello <- { Slots at(5461651) } 18:37:44 where { ... } is a function 18:37:49 and the number is generated on newSlot 18:37:57 then hello actually returns a value 18:37:59 ehird, oh and something I saw myself... "park bench" as "sitting function". Sadly the translation in this case makes it even more messed up, because "function" in this case have more than one meaning 18:37:59 problem is assigning it 18:38:00 hrmhrm 18:44:24 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:44:42 -!- Hiato has joined. 18:48:48 Ok, let me ask a seemingly worthless question: Which distro: GoboLinux, Zenwalk, Lunar, SliTaz or Puppy (or something light/small too)? 18:49:21 Hiato, Arch Linux? 18:49:26 it all depends on what you want 18:49:41 I use Arch Linux and Gentoo Linux. ehird here said GoboLinux was good iirc 18:49:48 and I like both Gentoo and Arch 18:49:49 bbl 18:50:05 Hiato: slackware? i dunno. 18:50:07 gobolinux is nice. 18:50:16 but not that lightweight 18:50:22 AnMaster: Well, a stable learning/messing platform that is extensible, but doesn't go bandwidth crazy like Ubuntu. This has to fit in <700mb's 18:50:50 Oh, and it has to be something different, from the usuals, FC, RHL, SuSE, Deb etc 18:51:01 Arch fits in 300MB IIRC 18:51:08 Ok, I'll take a look at Arch 18:51:22 If installing the core system from the internet instead of the CD, half of that 18:51:46 Hiato: ew 18:51:51 don't look at arch :-P 18:52:02 That sounds awesome. Thing is, I'm not really even sure what I use an OS for anyway. I have a Windoze partition, mainly for Fallout 3, and then that's it. I do python and ruby, etc, so nothing constricting there 18:52:12 Hiato: if you want to learn how linux works 18:52:13 go with slackware 18:52:16 Heh, well, I meant *look* at, as in read :P 18:52:33 Hiato: i mean, slackware is like one level up from Linux From Scratch 18:52:50 I have a vague idea, but I just wanna be able to mess around. Yeah, so I've heard, hence I included zenwalk in the list 18:52:56 the installer is basically an interface over a program that copies over a kernel and runs the (barely-extant) package manager 18:53:03 see, that can be a good thing 18:53:04 lol :P 18:53:08 if you want to get proficient with linux, that's great 18:53:14 because you learn it without a glossing over 18:53:23 it's also very small and fast sort of feeling, in general 18:53:40 Hrmm, so, BlueWhit64? I have an AMD 18:54:05 I wouldn't go for a really obscure distro, it'd just be painful 18:54:19 Hiato: what do you want to do with this? 18:54:43 ehird: not sure, and that's 90% of the problem. I would say use it, but I'm not even sure what that means. 18:54:52 what primary uses? :-) 18:55:14 On windoze, gaming, on linux/misc: surfing, programming and stuffing about 18:55:38 Hiato: is learning linux to a deeper extent one of your goals? 18:56:18 ehird: Most certainly, but, not necessarily a priority. (PS: You should make a web-wizard distro selector, you have all the right questions) 18:56:50 Hiato: lol, there are plenty of distro selectors to go around... But, if you have a lot of spare time and don't mind messing about a lot to get things going, Slackware could be a good learning experience. 18:57:02 You might also want to check out one of the *BSDs. 18:57:26 For something more "everyday" but still not a mainstream distro, not sure. Damn Small Linux? 18:58:04 I'd say Arch is fine as an easier Slackware 18:58:24 Deewiant: except that's a misguided goal 18:58:41 either you want to get familiar with linux, i.e. slackware 18:58:43 Meh, I'm skeptical about BSD, as I am about solaris/derivatives and other funny kernerls/os's. I tried DSL, and although it was Debian, it failed. Not my kind of thing.. leaves you way in the cold - I felt. I mean, I've never really felt comfortable in Linux, ever, so Arch is looking good and so is slackware. GoboLinux is out because it's too non-standard 18:58:47 or you want something for every-day usage, i.e. something else entirely 18:59:07 Why couldn't one become familiar with linux with an every-day distro 18:59:09 Hiato: BSD actually predates linux, by a long shot 18:59:17 Deewiant: You could. But if it's one of your specific goals... 18:59:32 I think the familiarity comes naturally with use 18:59:51 slackware can still be valuable, it really depends on what you want 18:59:52 Deewiant: Could, but where's the fun? ehird: Yep :P Read up a bit (a lot) in the past 18:59:54 Hell, I think I get /too/ familiar just trying to get rid of warnings and errors in dmesg and then in Xorg.0.log ;-) 19:00:27 Hiato: Slackware might "leave you out in the cold" to start with -- though its interactive installer is helpful. 19:00:36 Hiato: Well, there's the offset in that an everyday distro is more fun to use when you're not specifically tinkering and messing about in order to learn linux ;-) 19:00:40 Well, interactive is a stretch: Basically, you run it and it tells you what to do next and you have to figure out how ;-) 19:00:46 Treasurehunt installation! 19:00:54 Well, it does give you pointers. 19:01:19 ehird: :P Deewiant: yeah, I realise, which is why I'm leaning towards Arch now... no offense ehird 19:01:36 i still think arch is misguided 19:01:58 there's two poles, down-dirty and high-level... arch tries to be the latter by starting from the former 19:02:03 which is kind of silly 19:03:01 Hrmm... ok, so fundamentally, technically, it's not cool. Deewiant, do you use it? PS: it does have a much catchier description: a lightweight and flexible Linux® distribution that tries to Keep It Simple. 19:03:13 Yeah, I'm on Arch64 right now 19:03:19 My laptop runs Gentoo 19:03:24 gentoo? 19:03:29 disregard all of Deewiant's opinions, plz 19:03:50 Less effort to keep running Gentoo than to reinstall :-P 19:03:53 I see, well, I'm not in the mood for massive source compiling/downloading, so no gentoo/bintoo/saboyan etc 19:04:16 ehird: lol :P 19:04:56 I still like its USE flags idea, being able to set features on a per-package basis, leaving out what you don't need... but being able to install stuff in seconds instead of minutes or hours does outweigh that benefit :-P 19:05:42 Deewiant: macports has variants, essentially use flags 19:05:46 but less fine-grained, which is fine by me 19:06:03 of course, that's uncool, i mean. 19:06:07 I did flip between Arch and Gentoo on the laptop, though... something didn't work in Arch (I think it was the frame buffer settings) but did in Gentoo for some reason so I went with Gentoo 19:06:15 I wasn't in the mood for figuring stuff out 19:06:53 ehird: How does that work? Basically multiple different packages which provide the same virtual package or something like that? 19:07:07 Well, not that it really makes a difference, but according to DW: Slackware:14 Arch:16 19:07:24 if you want popularity, why are you looking for something obscure :P 19:07:32 slackware is one of the oldest distros fwiw 19:07:46 I believe it's the second-oldest still active one, after Debian 19:07:48 few months older than debian 19:07:50 err 19:07:52 Whaat 19:07:59 ehird: :P I know, just wanted to see what was on the web :P 19:08:00 slackware = 16 July 1993 19:08:06 debian = 16 August 1993 19:08:09 says wikipedia 19:08:19 I distinctly seem to remember being annoyed at the fact that slackware wasn't older than debian 19:08:25 haha 19:08:44 Maybe it was just at debian's age then 19:08:53 well, slackware was just a barely-modified SLS to start with it seems 19:08:57 so arguably it originated in 1992 19:09:17 Well yeah, arguably Ubuntu originated in 1993 ;-P 19:09:21 XD 19:09:39 er, what is going on here, where's the frinedly iso? ftp://ftp.is.co.za/mirror/ftp.slackware.com/pub/slackware/ 19:09:52 Slackware, friendly? Surely you jest 19:09:54 you didn't specify friendly as a requirement. 19:10:00 but 19:10:03 maybe wrong directory 19:10:05 * ehird takes a look 19:10:18 isolinux? 19:10:22 Yes; go one directory level upwards. 19:10:25 .. beats me 19:10:26 yep 19:10:28 oh, ok 19:10:28 wrong directory 19:10:29 And take slackware-12.2-iso or something. 19:10:36 "isolinux" is just the boot system thingie. 19:10:37 yeppers 19:10:52 Haven't used slackware in a long while, and never installed it myself 19:11:01 Hiato: http://www.slackware.com/install/ 19:11:10 might be worth printing that out / keeping it open on a separate machine. 19:11:12 s/might/will/ 19:11:38 er, ah, now that's a problem. Slackware>700mb's 19:12:00 Grab an older version :-P 19:12:13 You can make a small slackware installation, probably with the new versions too. 19:12:17 Just don't install everything. 19:12:28 You might not need all the isos 19:12:30 Hiato: why is that a problem? The actual install won't be that bg 19:12:33 *big 19:12:38 if you disable most things 19:13:00 It's the download that's the problem. I can only use 700mb's before the 20th or bust 19:13:13 ouch 19:13:17 I installed slackware 3.2 back in 1997 or so when it came with a Finnish computer magazine; and their installation CD was borken. Package descriptions were missing for a couple of categories, had to choose what to install based on package names only. And it was my first Linux experience. That wasn't friendly. 19:13:18 Hmh, why doesn't irssi send a message when I press keypad enter 19:13:29 Hiato: want me to send you a disk in the post? XD 19:13:43 fizzie: I'm sure you said that in 2005 or something 19:13:48 * ehird = obsessive log reader 19:13:52 ehird: Probably; I tend to repeat myself. 19:13:58 ehird: I would love it, here's a mackerel in return 19:14:07 Hiato: ooh! Legal B Nomic tender! 19:14:12 deal 19:14:23 ;) 19:16:07 back to my [non] life-altering decision, I can comprimise and take Zenwalk, or do as the Deewaint does and take Arch. Is it worth the compromise? 19:16:40 Slackware, download it via carrier pigeon 19:16:56 ehird: we have bad reception 19:17:07 Hiato: thus carrier pigeon. Here's some documentation: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt 19:17:54 XD :D and any combination of the letters "l", "o", "r" and "f" 19:18:13 Deewiant: re - macports variants 19:18:13 vim @7.2.065 (editors) 19:18:14 Variants: athena, big, cscope, gtk1, gtk2, huge, motif, nls, perl, 19:18:16 puredarwin, python, ruby, small, tcl, tiny, universal, 19:18:18 xim 19:18:23 with each octet separated by whitestuff and blackstuff. ? 19:18:27 the tcl portfile defining it just has "variant foo { ... }" blocks that override the global definition 19:18:28 Hiato: :D 19:20:48 ehird: Wait, macports installs from source? 19:20:58 Deewiant: yes, irritatingly 19:21:02 but, it's fast, generally 19:21:17 Deewiant: it could be done in a binary package manager 19:21:18 Why bitch at me for using Gentoo then :-P 19:21:26 instead of tweaking cflags, it'd just point to a different binary tarball 19:21:29 ehird: Yes, it could, which is why I was asking for details on how it works 19:21:41 combining variants would be non-trivial 19:21:57 Deewiant: gentoo has more of an attitude problem regarding it than macports ;-) 19:22:26 Meh, I don't humanize distros, I don't care about their attitude :-P 19:22:45 hey, who wants to buy me a pc that I can write an x11 WM on for no reason>??????? 19:22:47 ok, after checking forums, Zenwalk it is *conversation has taken carrier pidgen over my head* 19:23:01 What say forums 19:23:03 Hiato: a pox be upon you 19:23:19 MacPorts isn't even that fast on my one-gigahurtz G4 PPC; I remember doing a "port upgrade outdated" after a year or two of inactivity and it took several hours. 19:23:47 2ghz intel core 2 duo >>> 1ghz G4 PPC, I'd assume 19:24:11 Deewiant: well, it's the fact that Zenwalk forums respond nicely to questions like this: 19:24:12 Hello, I'm COMPLETELY new to Linux. So I have a few questions about it xD 19:24:12 If I install Zenwalk, will I lose the programs I had installed on Windows? 19:24:12 Also will I lose my files? :S sorry, rather dumb questions ^_^; 19:24:12 Ehird: ... :( I tried 19:24:12 Probably, but I don't have such EVIL CAPITALIST MONEY-HUGGER hardware. 19:24:22 Hiato: yes, you will. 19:24:27 unless you have them on a separate partition. 19:24:31 or, you know. back them up 19:24:41 ehird: that's not my question... 19:24:52 what is then 19:24:54 O_o I can't believe you believed that was me 19:24:57 19:24 Also will I lose my files? :S sorry, rather dumb questions ^_^; 19:25:00 oh 19:25:01 i see 19:25:02 sorry 19:25:04 i 19:25:06 totally misread 19:25:06 http://support.zenwalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=9346, somewhere there 19:25:08 XDDD 19:25:18 Hiato: Arch forums don't, then? 19:25:30 i think i just indirectly insulted Hiato's intelligence by mistake. ouch 19:25:32 * Hiato blushes 19:25:45 haven't checked them 19:25:47 ehird 19:25:49 all is forgiven :P 19:26:01 Hiato: thanks, idiot. Wait, disregard that <_< 19:26:02 Are you sure you want to associate with people who aren't all "AH HA HA YOU STUPEF STUPIDO" on the Interwebs? 19:26:31 They sound... abnormal. 19:26:31 fizzie: very true, and highly valid 19:26:43 let me ask you then: Zenwalk vs Arch 19:26:50 Debian. :p 19:26:54 " Also, spaces and symbols like '*' can confuse the Linux inner workings ('kernel'). " 19:27:00 Issue with zenwalk: they're all retards. 19:27:06 :-D 19:27:12 .. fizzie: I'll tryu again :P ehird: lol, heh 19:27:23 ehird: :-DDDD 19:27:28 inner workings ('kernel') 19:27:33 ok, Arch it is :D 19:27:37 er :P 19:28:00 THINK..AND READ BEFORE UPGRADING - amuch better topic in the Newb forums 19:28:40 Anyway, I don't know anything about either distro, so I can't really comment. (But Debian's netinst .iso is 145 megs, and contains the base system; then you can choose what other packages you want to download; so at least it fulfills that one arbitrary criterion.) 19:28:50 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep"). 19:29:24 * Hiato whips out his big bag o distros 19:30:16 Hiato: try linux from scratch 19:30:18 you know 19:30:23 in case you're suicidal 19:30:36 and, like, want to perform one last senseless, pointless act before leaving this earth. 19:30:41 then you should try lfs. 19:31:07 Oh, and if you feel like it, you can do Slackware too; just avoid the full .isos, pick up a suitable boot disk and the network.dsk image, then install over the network. It will not be friendly at all, though. 19:31:38 I have tried, and not really liked: Ubuntu x.xx, DSL, Austrami, PC-Linux {Mini-me}, Mach boot, SLED 10, SliTaz, TinyMe, Mepis, FC, RHL, Mandrake, Mandirva and a bunch of others 19:31:56 what's your main issue with them? 19:33:05 I just felt, well, I couldn't mess around, or that I wasn't supposed to. When I broke things, they magically healed and I was left none the wiser. Everything's a wizard (not necessarily bad), but get's frustrating. 19:33:26 fizze: will keep that in mind 19:33:51 Well, LFS is certainly something where you're supposed to mess around. 19:34:12 If it's any indicator, I liked Puppy - and still do. It's simple, stuff works, you fix what you break, the essentials are all there, but the rest can be done (with relative ease) 19:34:14 Hiato: slackware would be pretty much perfect then 19:34:25 when you mess up slackware, it doesn't work until you find out what's wrong and you fix it :-P 19:34:35 note: that is simultaneously very annoying 19:34:54 define "mess up" here 19:34:58 fizzie: understood, on both notes. ehird: yeah, but it's better in a snese 19:35:18 Deewiant: "i did something, this something was incorrect, the results are not correct" 19:35:26 Deewaint: change device0 to device1 or mess with other stuff in xorg.conf, just to see what it does 19:35:27 I've yet to use a system which wasn't like that :-P 19:35:53 for example. Or change/stop start-up scipts 19:35:53 Deewiant: yes, but it's usually at a higher level 19:36:06 mess with the HAL, etc etc 19:36:53 How can stuff possibly work automatically if you break a start-up script :-P 19:37:04 that's how I (and most of humanity) learn. Break stuff, look at the pieces, do it again and then work out what it is supposed to do and why it works 19:37:17 technicality :P 19:38:04 Deewiant: A package manager might automatically fix it when upgrading stuff. 19:38:04 Hiato: which would you prefer - everything is a wizard... or nothing is a wizard? 19:38:12 that's Mandrake vs Slackware :-p 19:38:30 ehird: can't I float in between, with a slow drift to the nothing side 19:38:44 But yes, that sounds like a fair comparison 19:38:49 that is not an answer :-P 19:38:51 I'd prefer an IRC Wizard. All this free-form writing is so tiresome; with a wizard interface I'd just have to click "Next" every now and then. 19:38:52 and I'd go with the nothing one 19:39:28 Hmm, it seems that switching to Marvell's sk98lin driver and setting Moderation=Static as an option has made my machine work even whilst downloading torrents, hoorays \o/ 19:39:30 fizzie: forming grammatical sentences is so HARD, i'd prefer to just be given options... whenever I get just one phrase wrong i get asked what i meant 19:39:32 it's scary!! 19:39:37 blarg, well, it looks like with my ridiculous restrictions, I'm going to have to go for Arch or bust 19:39:43 * ehird grump 19:39:55 Hiato: bust linux 19:40:04 good distro name there 19:40:08 Sounds not entirely work-safe. 19:40:35 Symptoms previously included: all processes using about 6000-10000% the CPU time even after the torrent client was closed 19:40:51 'We guarantee to break something, or your sourcecode back' 19:43:56 There's a curious network driver thing, also: the r8169 in an older kernel used to generate a ginormous number of "dropped" packets. 19:44:03 Ifconfig output: "RX packets:67776111 errors:0 dropped:423893525723034 overruns:0 frame:0" 19:44:16 Heh, nice. 19:44:18 And that number increased by something like 100 million packets every second. 19:44:27 This 2.6.28 doesn't seem to do that any more. 19:44:58 The annoying thing about this is that sk98lin is a third-party driver I have to get from marvell.com :-/ 19:49:19 Oh well; I have to use the horrible nvidia binary blob driver too, since the second monitor I have is pivotable but the open-source 'nv' driver disables all (2D too) acceleration if I want a rotated image. 19:50:12 This one's not a binary blob; it comes with an install.sh which patches the linux source tree (and unsuccessfully—had to manually correct a broken Kconfig file for 'make menuconfig' to run) 19:50:43 Which is in some ways even more annoying because it's a bit trickier to install than just a blob. 19:51:26 did Deewiant just use a — on IRC? 19:51:29 commendable 19:51:48 I was using the fglrx driver but now I've switched to radeonhd (no acceleration supported for my card model!) because fglrx would lock up the whole machine if I accidentally restarted X 19:51:50 Oh, the nvidia driver also has a horrible installation script which touches all kinds of places. I just use the Debian-packaged version, I'm not so interested in having the newest released ones. 19:52:30 sk98lin doesn't have an Arch PKGBUILD, I was thinking of making one but I guess that'd require me to duplicate much of the install.sh logic myself and it'd probably be too much work to keep up-to-date 19:52:41 And Lexmark's Linux drivers also had a horrible installation shell script. And so did some vmware product. It seems to be a habit. I usually just read them and do the steps manually, since I don't feel comfortable running them. 19:53:41 Yay, about 90 minutes of torrenting and 'time man man >/dev/null' still completes in less than 0.1 seconds 19:54:07 (As opposed to 5-7 seconds previously.) 19:55:38 Hmm, what the hell happened to google's favicon 19:55:54 It's positively hideous 19:56:00 http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/01/new-google-favicon.html 19:56:46 my fucking god 19:56:52 fire whoever did this 19:57:22 I was fine with the previous change though the old one is the best, but this one sucks :-P 19:59:07 Lexmark's linux drivers also include a full copy of Sun's Java 1.4.2 runtime. Probably some configuration dialog or something was done as a Java application. 20:00:10 Engfeh, that icon. 20:00:24 -!- alex89ru has joined. 20:00:36 Engfeh? 20:00:50 An exclamation of disgust. 20:00:52 I may need to start running a local proxy here just so I can override the google.com/favicon.ico URL. 20:01:02 Heh. 20:01:25 just use greasemonkey 20:01:37 Or https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3176 20:01:42 Then I'd need to do that for all installations. 20:01:50 Or no, it seems that's only for bookmarks 20:02:12 Or use w3m and forget about retarded graphics 20:02:53 There's an about:config entry called browser.chrome.favicons in Firefox. 20:03:05 Based on the name, toggling that true -> false might make them all go away. 20:03:15 Yep, it does. 20:03:19 ooh. 20:03:33 I will do that right after I switch to linux and use a 1000 sloc WM. 20:03:34 See also browser.chrome.site_icons 20:03:51 Yes, I'm seeing the kb.mozillazone.org description of that right now. 20:05:08 hmm 20:05:11 doesn't hide the icon tho 20:05:13 jusut always default 20:05:26 The site_icons preference will hide them. 20:05:32 Nope. 20:06:38 Oh. Documentation says it will. The favicons one is defined to force the favicon of all sites to the default, but not affect the displaying. (Or the icon displayed for image files.) 20:08:15 The documentation seems to be a filthy liar. 20:10:43 mice are so ergonomically terrible 20:12:03 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 20:18:39 -!- alex89ru has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:22:47 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 21:05:34 -!- Corun has joined. 21:59:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:24:53 back 22:25:22 Du och dina mjölkkor 22:25:33 (is that correct?) 22:26:27 don't look at arch :-P <-- why not? 22:26:37 I dislike it :-P 22:26:56 ehird: Most certainly, but, not necessarily a priority. (PS: You should make a web-wizard distro selector, you have all the right questions) <-- that exists 22:26:59 * AnMaster looks for url 22:27:05 Yes. 22:27:07 He said "a". 22:27:15 As in. 22:27:17 Yet another. 22:27:18 http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/ 22:27:23 Yes. We know. 22:27:24 don't know how good it is 22:27:35 it did suggest arch and gentoo for me :) 22:27:45 and I already used them 22:27:57 * ehird notes that AnMaster buffers his output and never reads input while calculating & sending output. 22:28:09 also slackware is painful, I know, I used it 22:28:13 One of those "which OS are you?" questionnaires also had at least a couple of Linux distributions in there. 22:28:14 worst package manager ever 22:28:23 Depends on your definition of worst. 22:28:26 no package manager 22:28:33 Well, what Deewiant said. 22:28:34 it cannot be the worst because it doesn't exist 22:28:38 It doesn't manage packages, it just installs them :P 22:28:39 at least linux from scratch doesn't pretend to have a working package manager 22:28:44 while slackware DOES 22:28:49 no it doesn't 22:28:50 I wasn't aware that it did 22:29:03 Deewiant, well it has packages 22:29:08 Deewiant: it has a script that takes a tarball and runs ./configure && make && make install 22:29:10 essentially 22:29:13 I used slackware for a couple of years without touching the package manager. It wasn't very much advertised. 22:29:19 not a package manager, it doesn't purport to be one 22:29:20 ehird, not slackware no, I remember installing it 22:29:24 and it's not exactly advertised 22:29:25 binary packages, *.tgz 22:29:41 same for some other packages I downloaded 22:29:59 AnMaster: btw, if you've got a Befunge-93 interpreter handy run on latest (november) mycology and let me know if any BADs ensue 22:30:05 All it does is unpack a tarball to / 22:30:10 then run doinst.sh 22:30:14 well, install/doinst.sh 22:30:29 and it can tell you what's in ionstall/slack-desc 22:30:50 Then it can remove a "package" that it's installed. And upgrade, which is really a special case of remove&install. 22:30:52 Deewiant, I don't have any verified one no, cfunge has a 93 mode, which changes space rules and so on, but won't actually forbid 98 instructions in general 22:30:57 ehird: yes, I knew that 22:31:03 Deewiant: i'm talking to AnMaster 22:31:08 I have been thinking of making that compile time mode for extra speed ;P 22:31:09 i.e., it's not a package manager. 22:31:17 with possibly greater emulation then 22:31:18 ehird: You directed a line at me 22:31:29 yeah that was ages ago :P 22:31:45 ehird: Yeah, and I responded to it when I noticed it :-P 22:31:46 ehird, also that counts as package manager without dependency handling 22:31:53 installm, uninstall, upgrade 22:31:54 AnMaster: it doesn't, though 22:32:01 only dep tracking is missing 22:32:02 or rather 22:32:06 your definition of package manager is wrong 22:32:16 and I wouldn't consider dep tracking to be important 22:32:20 it's only the worst package manager because your brain has the definition package manager = dependency-tracking etc 22:32:24 working towards the ballmer peak now 22:32:35 minimalism isn't for everyone 22:32:48 I did that web-test and it suggested me Debian and Ubuntu. I currently use Debian and Ubuntu. Clearly it must be infallible, based on my sample of N=1 persons. 22:32:50 ehird, so what is it? 22:32:53 if nto a package manager 22:32:57 what is the name for it 22:33:06 AnMaster: A package manager. Your definition is just wrong. 22:33:22 ehird, hm? I said I didn't include dep tracking in package manager 22:33:27 but it is something I *want* 22:33:33 it is an optional feature 22:33:34 Fine, then it isn't for you. 22:34:03 ehird, indeed, so I stick with something slightly more advanced while still no silly gui config stuff 22:34:06 such as gentoo and arch 22:34:14 ehird, also I have installed LFS 22:34:18 So why is it the worst package manager you've ever used? 22:34:18 and CLFS and HLFS 22:34:21 You haven't explained that yet. 22:35:23 That webtest gave me gentoo and, interestingly enough, slackware. 22:35:23 ehird, 1) it lacks the features that are RECOMMENDED, optional but silly to exclude (IMO) 2) it managed to loose track of files, this was around 5 years ago, slackware 9 or 10 I think, it may be better now 22:36:18 the distribution chooser is _heavily_ biased to the mainstream distros. 22:36:26 But, umm, I seem to get every single one. 22:36:31 Well, not Gentoo. 22:36:40 Arch, Kubuntu, Fedora, Mandriva, Slackware, OpenSuSE. 22:36:52 I guess "just show all distros" always gets the right one, but it's not exactly clever... 22:37:18 Well, I only got two out of it. 22:37:32 ehird, that differs, I get two, Arch and Gentoo 22:37:59 actually I don't get Arch if I select that I have a 64-bit CPU, which is odd, Arch have x86_64 support nowdays 22:38:05 I think it's because I answer "I don't care" to quite a few questions because, well, I don't. 22:38:10 Ah, 64-bit might make a difference. 22:38:22 I have a feeling I sort-of answered the questions so that I'd get Debian (and coincidentally Ubuntu) because I happen to be happy with this stuff. 22:38:26 Deewiant, yes it does 22:38:52 Silly if it assumes I want a 64-bit system (which is the case, but still) 22:39:11 * ehird tweaks answers to try and get better results. 22:39:21 Aha 22:39:25 Uh... is there a way to move backwards in the test? 22:39:29 for x86_64 it suggests gentoo and slackware 22:39:33 Now it gave me Slackware+Mandriva+Kubuntu+OpenSUSE+Ubuntu+Arch 22:39:37 fizzie, seems no, you could just restart it 22:39:39 +Ubuntu 22:39:40 Deewiant: ha 22:39:45 Deewiant, no gentoo? 22:39:49 Nope, no gentoo 22:39:53 strange 22:39:59 I think I added one more "don't care" than last time 22:40:04 That's a lot of questions to answer if I just want to change one. 22:40:06 To the development packages one 22:40:11 Okay, by lying through my teeth I get another huge pile. XD 22:40:12 The wording sucks, really 22:40:22 No, I don't /need/ development packages 22:40:33 I don't /need/ X packages for all X because I'm smart enough to get em elsewhere 22:40:47 * ehird tweaks answers further 22:40:48 Deewiant, anyway on x86/x86_64 you generally want a 64-bit distro, because a) multilib means you can run 32-bit just fine b) more registers more than compensates for increased pointer size 22:40:50 But it probably thinks "aha you don't /want/ them" 22:40:59 AnMaster: I don't run multilib, I run a 32-bit chroot 22:41:03 for sparc or ppc b isn't true 22:41:15 Deewiant, well both works the same way as far as the kernel cares 22:41:16 * ehird lies through some more teeth. 22:41:16 b) is a tradeoff; CPU for memory+disk 22:41:26 C'mon, gimme slackware. 22:41:29 Dammit you stupid machine. 22:41:33 A huge bag is not a good result 22:41:33 And it depends on the program anyway. 22:41:41 Deewiant, double register count more than compensates for double pointer size 22:41:49 in more than half of the cases 22:42:05 One thing I really like about slackware is that it doesn't mess with 3rd-party apps. 22:42:06 Yes, you are emphatically agreeing with what I said. :-P 22:42:13 Debian is an especially bad offender there 22:42:17 Heh, now I get Fedora, Ubuntu, Gentoo, Arch, Debian, Slackware if I tell it I don't care about the package management (that question is a bit silly, too, since a couple of answers are specific package formats and not about the abilities of the package management) and don't choose the 64-bit option. 22:42:24 Deewiant, an -m32 build of cfunge with 32-bit cells is about 5-10% slower on this computer, nothing else differs in build 22:42:33 for 64-bit cells the difference is around 70% faster 22:42:41 which is only to be expected 22:43:00 that is 70% faster for 64-bit build 22:43:03 Yeah, the package management question was really stupid as well. 22:43:14 Hell, /most/ of them were. 22:43:16 fizzie, yep agreed 22:43:36 I should write my own chooser that always gives either Slackware or Ubuntu. 22:43:37 it was just one of the *least* stupid wizard style linux selector thingies I knew 22:44:05 and it did give the right answers for me, that is the ones I ended up with after testing lots and lots of distros before 22:44:38 http://www.tuxs.org/chooser/ for the win 22:44:46 * ehird answers hardcore-style 22:44:59 I bet answering "Expert" to "How would you rate your technical skills?" makes it mark you as lower than "Beginner" 22:45:11 * AnMaster used red hat (back when it wasn't fedora, red hat 6.0...), OpenSuSE (don't remember version), Slackware, Debian before ending up with Gentoo and Arch 22:45:16 Ubuntu was hardly around back then 22:45:18 not big yet 22:45:21 I answered "expert" simply because I know many professionals that don't know jack shit 22:45:27 I tried it afterwards 22:45:28 horrible 22:45:30 If your PC is fairly new and you are looking for a more technical distribution to install on your hard drive then try 22:45:31 Debian or Slackware 22:45:40 If your PC is a few years old and you are looking for a more technical distribution to install on your hard drive then try 22:45:41 Debian or Slackware 22:45:52 Umm, gee, that's some variation. 22:45:57 ehird: Note that it says "more info on Gentoo or Slackware" 22:46:02 hahahahahah 22:46:04 I bet answering "Expert" to "How would you rate your technical skills?" makes it mark you as lower than "Beginner" <-- well I *know* I'm expert, since I'm able to help even with the tricker questions in ##linux a lot of the time 22:46:31 AnMaster: that's pretty arrogant... 22:46:35 http://distrogue.awardspace.com/ was nice 22:46:41 It gave me "Perfect match!" but nothing else 22:46:46 Deewiant: awardspace? srsly? XD 22:46:50 ehird, and I successfully cross compiled a hardened LFS, for which there is no guide :P 22:46:55 from ppc to x86 22:47:12 Wow, you did something for which a guide did not exist 22:47:12 [[AnMaster's ego shoots off the charts]] 22:47:12 there is a hardened guide and a cross compiling one 22:47:18 compiling them isn't that easy 22:47:21 Wow, you combined two guides 22:47:26 Deewiant: i know, I need guides _all the time_ 22:47:28 Deewiant, hah :P 22:47:29 i mean 22:47:30 breathing? 22:47:33 that shit's hard, man 22:47:40 ehird, ok here is how:~ 22:47:46 1) Breath in 22:47:49 Breathing guide: http://www.breathingmatters.com/bodybm.htm 22:47:55 2) Wait a very short time 22:48:01 3) Breath out 22:48:06 4) GOTO 1 22:48:10 AnMaster: ok, but how do I combine this with the eating guide????? 22:48:12 that is the basics 22:48:16 ehird: xD 22:48:18 combining guides is _really hard_ 22:48:25 ehird, depends on what version of the eating guide 22:48:40 ehird, also a hardened cross compiling toolchain is quite complex in fact 22:48:48 4. Do you need a 3D desktop? <- Fuck off, distro chooser XD 22:48:56 ehird, it never asked me that? 22:48:58 5. Will you be using your system for gaming? <- excuse me, isn't this for Linux? 22:49:04 AnMaster: deewiant linked to http://distrogue.awardspace.com/ 22:49:05 or is this another one? 22:49:06 "Here are the results: Perfect match!" Heh, that's funny. 22:49:06 ah 22:49:22 4. Do you need a 3D desktop? <- Fuck off, distro chooser XD <-- heck I need to *NOT* have oen 22:49:23 http://desktoplinuxathome.com/distro.html seems okay 22:49:23 one* 22:49:31 fizzie: also "This page has been viewed times." 22:49:42 Holy fuck 22:49:43 I got OpenSUSE :( 22:49:44 I got a lot of results 22:49:51 fizzie: Do you have cookies enabled? 22:50:10 wait 22:50:12 Deewiant: Nope. That might be it. 22:50:26 I was hoping "Yes" so I wouldn't have to do it again :-P 22:50:56 Yeah, cookies was it 22:51:01 http://desktoplinuxathome.com/distro.html, my results in order: 22:51:02 AnMaster: deewiant linked to http://distrogue.awardspace.com/ <-- it suggests FreeBSD, PC-BSD, SabayonLinux, Pardus, Gentoo, Arch, "Frugalware", Debian, Fedora, openSUSE, mandriva and more 22:51:03 nice 22:51:06 some aren't even linux 22:51:14 debian, slackware, vector(???????????????????????????????????????????????????), gentoo 22:51:16 then it goes on to 3 stars 22:51:18 AnMaster: no 22:51:20 see the lines beklow 22:51:22 Perfect match! 22:51:23 or 22:51:24 it lists the problem 22:51:29 (it lists every distro and then whether it matched) 22:51:33 ah 22:51:34 right 22:51:38 http://www.vectorlinux.com/ wtf. 22:51:40 Gives me Gentoo,Arch,Frugalware,FreeBSD-Stable,PC-BSD as "perfect matches" 22:51:42 who uses that 22:51:43 ehird, gentoo was at top 22:51:46 for me 22:51:53 but why *bsd 22:51:59 they aren't linux 22:52:04 yes I use freebsd and openbsd 22:52:07 but not as desktop 22:52:34 http://www.vectorlinux.com/ wtf. <-- shiny! 22:52:46 http://polishlinux.org/choose/quiz/ 22:52:48 ^ THAT seems good 22:52:52 good questions, good results 22:53:00 I got {Gentoo,{Free,Open,Net}BSD,Slackware} 22:53:19 http://desktoplinuxathome.com/distro.html gave me Ubuntu,Mandriva,Vector,Fedora,Gentoo,Mepis as ones with more than 3 smileys 22:53:20 out of which I'd consider using {NetBSD,Slackware}, but I can understand why it gave the others 22:53:27 3. How important stability and maturity is for you? 22:53:27 very much 22:53:27 quite much 22:53:30 quite much? 22:53:36 err what? 22:53:36 it's from a polish site 22:53:38 give em some slack 22:53:39 aha 22:53:45 ehird, ...ware 22:53:45 AnMaster: it's a continuum from a lot to not at al 22:53:46 l 22:53:46 I hate the way saying that I have a new computer causes them to give me bloatware 22:53:57 22:53 ehird, ...ware <-- Wut>? 22:54:05 give em some slack ehird, ...ware 22:54:05 wareware 22:54:07 ,,, 22:54:08 ....* 22:54:09 o 22:54:11 jeez 22:54:13 ,,,,,,,,,,,,, 22:54:20 someone else try the polish one 22:54:21 it looks good. 22:54:22 polishlinux.org times out for me 22:54:26 huh 22:54:26 WFM 22:54:37 Polish says: FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Debian, Gentoo, NetBSD. 22:54:38 http://polishlinux.org.nyud.net/choose/quiz/ seems to work 22:54:41 It seems very BSD-friendly. 22:54:53 I'd just ignore the BSD results, tbh 22:55:14 ehird, question 7 is not good 22:55:16 Meh, the Coral cache is slow 22:55:20 it seems to contrast like this: 22:55:28 binary, easy - source, hard 22:55:33 except it isn't like that 22:55:34 no 22:55:35 it doesn't 22:55:41 I have seen binary and hard to use 22:55:42 if you read it, it doesn't :P 22:55:44 and source and easy 22:55:55 it's a crucial thing for me - I often test different software and don't have the time to play with compiling from sources, looking for dependencies and so on 22:55:56 quite much - easy installation is a big plus; still I can compile and build a package once in a while 22:55:56 not much - nice package management system temps, but I usually prefer to prepare packages myself so I know what exact functionality I get 22:55:57 well 22:56:04 I want easy and source, with fine level of control 22:56:10 you can just as easily read "build" as "make own package" 22:56:18 some system to set features I want, then have the system to build them for me 22:56:30 like say, WITH_KDE=yes 22:56:34 or so 22:56:37 like freebsd uses 22:56:38 that's an irrelevant detail 22:56:40 you set a few flags 22:56:53 and then it should be easy to use, track all deps 22:56:56 and so on 22:57:07 you seem to have a penchant for ignoring the bigger picture and concentrating on minutae... 22:57:15 Oh darn, the nyud.net one sends the results to the non-cached one anyway 22:57:23 Deewiant: um 22:57:26 nyud.net couldn't handle POST 22:57:26 duh 22:57:31 it caches per-URL... 22:57:36 yes, quite 22:57:39 1. Gentoo Linux 22:57:40 2. FreeBSD 22:57:40 3. OpenBSD 22:57:40 4. NetBSD 22:57:40 5. Slackware Linux 22:57:42 I did not realize it in time 22:57:45 is what the polish one suggested 22:57:50 And the main site still times out for me 22:57:51 well it is missing arch 22:57:58 lol i wonder if you can get it to NOT suggest bsd 22:58:04 Deewiant: use a proxy? 22:58:33 "Why are you going to try Linux? " (http://desktoplinuxathome.com/distro.html) 22:58:42 AnMaster: leave it blank 22:58:44 worked for me 22:58:45 "I'm already a Linux user" is missing 22:58:53 so leave it blank 22:59:06 Debian, Fedora, KateOS, Gentoo, Ubuntu 22:59:17 Wonder why that site doesn't work from here 22:59:18 I like that it has Gentoo and Ubuntu in the same list 22:59:20 kateos looks polish 22:59:25 which would make sense considering the site 22:59:32 http://www.sabayonlinux.org/ <-- worst distro ever or worst distro ever 22:59:33 ok it suggests ubuntu first, then gentoo, mandriva, vector, Mepis, Slackware, Fedora 22:59:33 wtf 22:59:36 that is crazy 22:59:40 yes I tried ubuntu 22:59:41 AnMaster: yeah it sucks :P 22:59:42 worst one ever 22:59:49 there are distros worse than ubuntu 22:59:51 ehird: "for desktop, not a programmer" + "newbie" + "no time for learning" + nothing else concerns me => no BSDs. 22:59:56 case in point: mandrake 22:59:58 & pclinuxos 22:59:58 ehird, well opensuse comes close 23:00:03 Quiz doesn't work in links 23:00:04 fizzie: :D 23:00:06 ehird, I haven't used mandriva/mandrake 23:00:11 opensuse isn't bad 23:00:16 not my cup of tea, but not bad 23:00:33 (Actually that sort of settings give Mandriva, openSUSE, Aurox, Xandros, Fedora.) 23:00:39 anyway I used quite a few of them, and that chooser is the worst so far 23:00:43 fizzie, which chooser? 23:00:57 polishlinux has been the best for me 23:01:00 the questions aren't stupid 23:01:03 which is nice 23:01:25 AnMaster: The Polish one. 23:01:28 oh I never heard of this vectorlinux before 23:01:39 fizzie, the polish one wasn't too bad, except the language 23:01:50 it missed arch 23:01:55 maybe it isn't in it's database 23:03:26 anyway personally I have found the distros I like, gentoo (primary desktop); arch (low end [Pentium 3 or lower] headless development computer); FreeBSD (remote server in datacenter); OpenBSD (dedicated firewalls) 23:03:30 At last: Gentoo, FreeBSD, Arch, Debian, PLD 23:03:35 PLD? 23:03:41 what one is that? 23:03:44 http://polishlinux.org/linux/pld/ 23:03:59 PLD took some best features from couple of other distributions: RPM format from Red Hat (but PLD uses RPM-s capabilities much more efficiently), 23:04:00 it didn't recommend that to me 23:04:01 RPM is a feature? 23:04:02 what 23:04:12 ehird: A bug, then? :-P 23:04:13 ehird, I thought RPM was a bug 23:04:16 dammit 23:04:18 I was about to say that 23:04:22 to hell with both of you 23:04:27 ^_______^ 23:04:34 * ehird considers filing a bug report for every RPM-based distro 23:04:35 There seem to be quite many Polish distributions in there; surprisingly. 23:04:38 ehird, at least it was back when I used red hat 6.0... Oh the nostalgia! RPM hell! 23:04:42 fizzie: or, rather, not surprisingly 23:04:49 I hadn't heard of Aurox either. 23:04:53 It's a polish site :-P 23:04:59 fizzie, nor have I 23:05:16 anyway that vectorlinux thing, anyone ever heard of it before? 23:05:21 nope 23:05:22 It's website look... shiny? 23:05:23 yep 23:05:29 yes that is the right word, shiny 23:05:31 looks rubbish 23:05:35 Deewiant, you heard of it before 23:05:37 It's the best; the site says so. 23:05:38 yep 23:05:40 ehird, yes that was what I said :P 23:05:42 AnMaster: "eye candy", more like 23:05:53 shiny -> rubbish 23:06:16 for example for some reason I don't know the buttons on my mobile phone are shiny 23:06:18 I recall it being said that Vector was lightweight, but it might have been compared to Ubuntu or something 23:06:21 you see all the fingerprints on it 23:06:25 black shiny 23:06:34 which IMO is rubbish 23:06:37 But VectorLinux has a DELUXE version! 23:06:39 * ehird considers doing LFS then killing himself 23:07:00 ehird, there is some package manager somewhat like checkinstall 23:07:06 forgot the name for it 23:07:12 anyway made for recording packages for LFS 23:07:18 it solves the uninstall issue 23:07:33 it is in their "hints" section 23:07:37 on the website of lfs I mean 23:08:10 I'm pretty sure that "Go into chroot, run make install, record the differences to a file, then extract from chroot" is pretty trivial to write. 23:08:23 I mean, as these things go. 23:08:26 ehird, I think it was using LD_PRELOAD trick 23:08:29 rather than chroot one 23:08:47 don't remember 23:09:12 I'd prefer a chroot :-P 23:09:17 's what macports uses 23:09:31 ehird, well how do you know the tools you need to install are in there 23:09:32 ehird whats a chroot 23:09:37 I mean, like make and so on 23:09:49 psygnisfive: RTFM 23:09:50 some packages might need obscure tools to install 23:09:56 psygnisfive, man chroot 23:09:59 AnMaster: that's why you copy the whole system to a chroot. 23:10:00 besides a british dialects way of saying truth :p 23:10:11 ah its something in the shell? 23:10:11 ehird, well that will take a while. 4 GB or whatever 23:10:13 hmm 23:10:18 ch root 23:10:20 psygnisfive, not in shell no 23:10:21 AnMaster: do whatever macports does, then. 23:10:29 ehird, I would use chroot + unionfs 23:10:31 AnMaster: also, stop trying to teach psygnisfive. hopeless case. 23:10:31 to avoid copying 23:10:33 :D 23:10:36 it would really rock 23:10:40 ehird shut your face :P 23:10:40 no idea if it has been done 23:10:42 also, that fails when the package modifies existing files 23:10:43 no? 23:10:46 ehird, nop 23:10:51 oh, copy-on-write? 23:10:53 ah i see. 23:10:58 ehird, overlaying fs 23:11:05 okay, that would work splendidly then 23:11:11 and be easy to implement 23:11:31 ehird, and then you check what was changed in the overlaying one, need to handle deleted files (unionfs write specially "whiteout" files for that iirc) 23:11:37 anyway one issue 23:11:50 unionfs isn't in vanilla kernel 23:11:53 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 23:11:54 ehird, just telling me it was a shell command makes was good enough :P 23:12:02 this means you may need to wait for the patchset to be ported 23:12:07 who cares about a vanilla kernel when you're hypothesising your own distro 23:12:12 You can also use a LVM snapshot volume mounted in the chroot; that's copy-on-write. Although looking at changes is then a bit more difficult, with unionfs you nicely get the changed/deleted files easily. 23:12:23 psygnisfive, chroot isn't a shell command, it is a system call 23:12:27 hopeless./ 23:12:27 case. 23:12:29 same thing :P 23:12:39 ehird, because you can't track last sources, you need to wait for it to be ported to last 23:12:48 which means you can't follow bleeding edge 23:12:59 "man chroot" does give here the 'shell command' -- well, it's not a built-in, but anyway -- instead of the system call, though. 23:12:59 fizzie, yes that would work nicely 23:13:04 who honestly cares about a bleeding edge kernel? 23:13:30 ehird, me? at least on my development box, on my desktop I run more stable 23:13:34 Anyone with bleeding edge hardware. :p 23:13:35 still not debian stable 23:13:37 does it really matter though? 23:13:47 ehird, yes because I want to test new features 23:13:47 as long as it's relatively new, does it bother you? 23:13:48 on that box 23:13:57 why are we talking about hardware and kernels 23:14:01 this is not esoteric enough 23:14:07 psygnisfive: because we want to, go away if you don't like it. 23:14:16 ehird, which is why it ran gcc 4.3.2 one week after it was released 23:14:17 And 2.6.28 did really add useful things. Someone xtables-ized the iptables "recent" module, for example, so my SSH knocking thing works for IPv6 now, too. 23:14:21 AnMaster: i guess it falls under the "all programmers are fashion-obsessed nerds with ADHD" axiom 23:14:25 and glibc 2.9 quite fast too 23:14:26 you should be talking about a kernel written in BF! 23:14:34 ehird, you are a programmer too? 23:14:38 yes i am. 23:14:38 I'm pretty sure 23:14:48 ehird, you have ADHD? Would explain a lot :P 23:14:56 That was a metaphor. :P 23:15:04 Just like how by fashion I didn't mean clothes. 23:15:05 hes 13. all 13 year olds have adhd. 23:15:15 its like.. required to be 13 23:15:15 ehird, exactly 23:15:18 if all 13 year olds have ADHD it's hardly ADHD, is it 23:15:27 no, but shut up 23:15:28 i mean, for something to be an actual... thing it has to be non-norm 23:15:29 :P 23:15:41 why? normal things are things! 23:15:54 attention-deficit hyperactivity disposition. :P 23:15:59 ehird, I never care for clothes. Simple classical model blue jeans that aren't pre-worn-out, and t-shirt, and due to climate something thicker over 23:16:12 and AnMaster successfully derails the conversation to an irrelevant topic 23:16:13 like this thing made of fleece 23:16:20 only to have everyone else pull it back again 23:16:23 anmaster is dressed like a lumberjack. 23:16:26 jumper, jacket, sweater? 23:16:29 what is the UK one? 23:16:33 I can't keep them apart 23:16:42 which* 23:17:23 ehird, anyway you derailed it by starting talking about clothes! 23:17:36 no, I didn't talk about clothes 23:17:44 yes 23:17:47 Just like how by fashion I didn't mean clothes. 23:17:53 that's not talking about clothes 23:17:54 the word clothes is there 23:18:01 i googled lumberjack for a humorous picture 23:18:04 ehird, that is meta-talking about not talking about clothes 23:18:04 and this is what i find: http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e98/bolson51/lumberjack.jpg 23:18:14 AnMaster: you are confusing mentioning and changing the topic to 23:18:37 23:15 @@ @run words "sleep eat haskell idle" !! (pred.read.last.words$(@show @dice 1d4)) 23:18:37 23:15 "haskell" 23:18:40 ehird, well I disagree 23:19:14 bbl, going to listen to an one hour radio program :) 23:21:02 "an one" 23:21:12 you real are an master! 23:21:12 huzzah! 23:22:31 psygnisfive, an (one hour) radio program 23:22:34 is the parsing 23:22:52 and "one" begins with vowel sound, thus "an" 23:22:59 actually it doesnt begin with a vowel :) 23:23:05 it because with a "w" sound 23:23:14 but its not written that way for historical reasons. 23:23:29 psygnisfive, doesn't that depend on dialect? 23:23:33 nope! 23:23:41 "one" is always said with initial w. 23:24:09 besides, "an" is not universally used just before vowels 23:24:16 AnMaster: absolutely not 23:24:19 it's a one hour 23:24:27 bbl 23:24:28 an one hour sounds definitively wrong 23:24:41 for instance, its used because the "y" glide as in "a usually red hat" 23:24:43 "a used book" 23:24:46 etc 23:24:52 psygnisfive, as I mentioned my nick are from my initials 23:24:55 so not relevant 23:24:56 cya 23:24:58 REALLY now 23:24:58 i know :P 23:25:01 i was being silly 23:36:31 23:31 read that as "sleep eat haskell die" 23:36:32 23:31 i was like "wow, what a gambler!" 23:36:34 you see 23:36:35 those lines seemed familiar 23:36:39 but then i realised oklopol said them 23:37:13 familiar? 23:37:20 i dunno 23:37:24 just like I knew who would have said tem 23:37:27 them 23:37:34 well yeah, that's not a surprise 23:37:45 i mean i'm pretty oklo 23:59:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.