00:00:14 <impomatic> When does the fungot bf interpreter terminate? E.g. if I put it in an infinite loop printing something?
00:00:15 <fungot> impomatic: you could ask him to move two seats from mine. it's just werid that it never returned in the first place
00:00:40 <oerjan> impomatic: iirc it's pretty robust
00:00:44 <oklopol> impomatic: after $lot instructions?
00:00:56 <fungot> <CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP><CTCP> ...
00:01:02 <ehird> It's not meant to break.
00:01:18 <ehird> impomatic: fungot is written in befunge
00:01:19 <fungot> ehird: basically lots of spaces there.)
00:01:20 <FireFly> Didn't it replace chars <31 with dots?
00:01:21 <oerjan> impomatic: well i think it also stops after a number of characters
00:01:28 <ehird> impomatic: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
00:01:29 <fungot> ehird: or is it new zealand... do you do if you keep using the module system command processor chapters.
00:02:30 <oerjan> FireFly: not all of them, just LF and CR iirc, it was changed so it could do emotes and stuff
00:02:48 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹ŒŽ‘’“”•–—˜™š›œžŸ ¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏ ...
00:02:57 <ehird> 00:03 <Bouncer> CTCP-query unknown( ..) from fungot
00:02:58 <fungot> ehird: bad things happen when 2 year olds realize " wow. i have moral fiber.
00:03:04 <FireFly> [01:02:47] Channel CTCP .. request from fungot [n=fungot@momus.zem.fi] (.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹ŒŽ‘’“”•–—˜™š›œžŸ ¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏ ...), ignored (unrecognized)
00:03:05 <fungot> FireFly: i'll blame them regardless. :-p i just feel optimistic in general.
00:03:15 <oerjan> FireFly: but the channel censors some others
00:03:28 <ehird> a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) <fungot> ehird: bad things happen when 2 year olds realize " wow. i have moral fiber. <fungot> FireFly: i'll blame them regardless. :-p i just feel optimistic in general.
00:03:29 <fungot> ehird: so...if i were to use cps to do any key input without actually matching the keycodes
00:03:31 -!- ehird has set topic: a) oko; b) the swatter; c) messing with the topic; d) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric; e) the letter game; f) gay sex. occasionally.; g) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page; h) <fungot> ehird: bad things happen when 2 year olds realize " wow. i have moral fiber. <fungot> FireFly: i'll blame them regardless. :-p i just feel optimistic in general..
00:04:24 <fizzie> Yes, the interpreter stops after aaaaaa***** instructions. ("Instructions" here means bytecode instructions, so +++++ counts as a single instruction.)
00:04:50 <fizzie> (And it also terminates after 88+:* output characters.)
00:05:07 <ehird> People can't read befunge numbers, fizzie :P
00:05:18 <fizzie> Well, 10^6 and 256, then.
00:06:05 <oerjan> ehird: sure we can, with a little thought.
00:07:18 <FireFly> I didnẗ know there were a hex addition
00:07:37 <fizzie> Comes in Funge-98; doesn't exist in Befunge-93.
00:08:01 <fizzie> Although I've seen at least one "mostly Befunge-93" interpreter that did a-f (and the single-shot string-mode ') as an extension.
00:09:05 <FireFly> <> #" 91+6*:,2+,84*:,:3+,84*2+,>:#,_84*2+,@" is my most creative creation in Befunge so far
00:09:29 <FireFly> By parsing the stuff inside the string as code
00:09:37 <FireFly> After pushing it to the mem as a string
00:09:45 <fizzie> The string-mode feature makes it pretty well-suited for quines.
00:10:26 <FireFly> It jumps over the next command
00:10:42 <oklopol> so yes, but a different kind than i thought.
00:10:46 <FireFly> So I basicly jump over the " that enters string-mode
00:10:56 <oklopol> that's the great thing about inventing your own words
00:11:02 <oklopol> if you're wrong, no one will know
00:11:02 <fizzie> The underload interpreter termination condition is even more arbitrary, since it's ffaa***, so 225000. Not sure why. Since it counts Underload commands, it's easy to get a rather slow Underload program by just ":*"ing up two strings that are close to half of the stack size limit, then looping with (~:^):^.
00:11:44 <oerjan> oklopol: a suparene observation
00:12:02 <oklopol> oerjan: lol i almost googled that.
00:12:14 <FireFly> It doesn't contain "gold" at least
00:12:22 <oklopol> fizzie: better arbitrary than base 10
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00:25:16 <ehird> By the way, from 2003-01-something to 2008-10-31, 786499 lines were said here.
00:25:21 <ehird> 800k. Not really that many...
00:25:46 <ehird> It'd take 9 straight days to read the logs, assuming 1line/sec
00:26:05 <ehird> so probably like nearing a month to read them all if you allocated a bit of your day to it
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00:30:12 * oerjan is slightly startled by his watch
00:30:31 <oerjan> it has day names in both english and german
00:30:45 <lamente> Time flies like an arrow, FireFly's a banana
00:30:58 <oerjan> normally it's in english, but for a brief time each night it goes by the german one
00:31:06 <oerjan> so currently it reads "DIE" :D
00:31:29 <oerjan> (well, abbreviated to 3 letters)
00:31:59 <oerjan> lamente: a burning banana?
00:32:24 <lamente> it has english and spanish, spanish is what's normally on
00:34:13 <oerjan> er, a russian in canada, with his watch set to spanish?
00:34:25 <ehird> lamente is a polyglot
00:34:35 <ehird> lamente do you know toki pona or is that someone else
00:37:34 <ehird> lamente how do you say "segmentation fault" in toki pona :P
00:37:56 <ehird> I was expecting "you can't".
00:38:03 <ehird> What does pakala literally mean?
00:38:14 <lamente> the creator of toki pona was in #linguistics today, actually
00:38:53 <ehird> lamente: I take it that applies to all error?
00:39:37 <ehird> I should learn toki pona.
00:48:41 <ehird> lamente: So I take it technical discussion in toki pona is near-impossibl
00:50:53 <ehird> I take it this is a feature
00:51:14 <ehird> Maybe someone should design a toki pona programming language. The only error message is "pakala"
00:51:44 <oerjan> the name alone tells us it's intended for pacific paradise islands without modern technology.
00:52:55 <Azstal> pakala, tu ala, nasa jan! (note, I know none of the grammar, so I put them in a random vaguely english-like order)
00:56:59 <ehird> lamente: Doesn't toki pona kind of rely on the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis being strongly true?
00:58:36 <lamente> strongly true, or maybe strongly false, something like that
00:59:50 <ehird> lamente: how strongly false? It's meant to change how you think.
01:00:20 <ehird> It can become a sort of "yoga for the mind". Instead of getting caught in negative thoughts and anxiety, you learn to relax, meditate and explore your relationship to life itself.
01:00:26 <ehird> Training your mind to think in Toki Pona can lead to many deeper insights about yourself or the world around you.
01:01:37 <ehird> http://www.tokipona.org/intro.html
01:01:42 <ehird> section Wisdom and True Meaning
01:02:05 <ehird> it's certainly bullshit
01:02:07 <lamente> but then sonja is a profoundly fucked up individual
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01:27:51 <ehird> lamente: More bullshit: "medical benefits" http://www.tokipona.org/ponasijelo.html
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01:29:31 <ehird> ^bf ++++[<+++++<+++<++<+<++[>]<-]<-<-<<<-<<+++++[>+++++<-]>[>+>[++++>][<]>-]>>.---.>..>.<<<.>>>>.<.+++.<.<-.<+.
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01:33:22 <ehird> means good language in toki pona
01:38:40 <kerlo> I guess my Translation-Creds have run out.
01:41:17 <oerjan> so what does kerlo mean in lojban?
01:42:00 <kerlo> It's a metaphor. Maybe. :-P
01:56:25 <psygnisfive> theres this language, armenian, written with a funky alphabet, and one joke about the written language is that it looks like hu muh umun unuuu mumuhu mukum unum utuh mumhumuhum
01:56:52 <psygnisfive> i've suggested in #isharia that someone make an eso conlang that looks like that when romanized
01:57:34 <psygnisfive> everything is hmnu or some other similar stuff
01:58:01 <psygnisfive> i wonder if we could make similar analogies here
01:58:21 <Azstal> that'th not very nithe
01:58:33 <oerjan> i think that has been done
01:59:00 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brackets
01:59:07 <oerjan> ok not exactly the same
02:00:00 <psygnisfive> do yo see that? that is way too comprehensible! :|
02:00:32 <oerjan> must be your linguist training
02:02:33 <oerjan> hm there should be something closer but i don't know how to search for it
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06:42:48 <bsmntbombdood> a while ago we were talking about fastly implementing brainfuck, specifically bounds checking on the tap
06:43:36 <bsmntbombdood> the best way is probably to just mmap 2 gb and put a gaurd page on either end
06:44:16 <lament> brainfuck memory checking is O(1) for sufficiently large values of 1
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08:26:04 <MizardX> Anyone know a good parser generator/library for python?
08:31:07 <MizardX> PLY seems interesting... couldn't find Parsec >_>
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08:59:38 <AnMaster> using bsearch() is slower than a simple linear search with "stop if passed the value we searched for" in certain cases.
08:59:55 * AnMaster wonders about a custom binary search instead
09:01:07 <AnMaster> (and yes I did large tests and plotted the results)
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09:23:58 <AnMaster> for custom the difference is so small in this case that the mean of 500 runs varies less than 0.00001 between custom binary search and the linear search. Heh.
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09:36:01 <AnMaster> I was testing the best way to search for fingerprint to load, and a linear search is faster than bsearch() for some reason.
09:36:15 <AnMaster> A custom binary search is just about as fast as a linear search
09:38:03 <ais523> AnMaster: you're on a small array
09:38:18 <ais523> binary is only faster than linear if you have a lot of elements
09:38:30 <ais523> simple algorithms tend to be faster on small numbers of entries no matter what their computational class
09:38:38 <ais523> in this case, lsearching 30 entries is trivial for a computer
09:38:51 <ais523> bsearching involves lots of complicated comparisons and looping and out-of-order memory accesses
09:38:56 <AnMaster> ais523, the array stride is quite large
09:39:02 <ais523> if you had 100000 fingerprints, the bsearch would probably be faster
09:39:40 <AnMaster> since I'm searching an array of structs
09:39:46 <AnMaster> based on the first field in the struct
09:41:00 <AnMaster> ais523, I guess maybe cache matters too?
09:41:17 <ais523> possibly, but that's unlikely to be the reason
09:41:56 <AnMaster> well, the way Mike Riley is going, I guess bsearch will be faster soon ;)
09:44:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mycology doesn't test 3DSP right?
09:44:36 <AnMaster> because cfunge implements that one
09:44:48 <AnMaster> and if mycology doesn't test it, ccbi doesn't implement it
09:45:26 <AnMaster> _3dsp.d, yet I can't find it when grepping mycology
09:46:47 <AnMaster> "3D space manipulation extension" is the official name, but actually it is FPSP-style matrix operatiosn
09:47:21 <ais523> you know, I'm slightly scared at all the "useful" operations that Befunge is accumulating...
09:47:21 <AnMaster> dot product or vector, matrix translation and so on
09:47:36 <AnMaster> ais523, that is mostly due to RC/Funge I'm afraid
09:47:47 <AnMaster> like malloc() stuff for funge and what not
09:48:17 <AnMaster> most of them I'm never going to implement.
09:51:44 <impomatic> Finally I'm in first place on something :-) http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?google#Brainfuck
09:52:03 <ais523> impomatic: ah, I remember anagold
09:52:11 <ais523> I used to play it a lot, but haven't checked in recently
09:53:16 <ais523> AnMaster: Befunge has loads more commands and also string literals, it's easily going to win in a problem like that
09:54:03 <ais523> bash is a special one, because it allows you to call out to external programs
09:54:10 <ais523> whereas most of the others don't by default
09:54:25 <ais523> bash always has exec allowed, though
09:54:30 <ais523> no matter what the global setting
09:56:41 <ais523> GolfScript is an esolang specifically designed to give small programs
09:56:51 <AnMaster> ais523, do you get xkcd today?
09:56:56 <ais523> although I think it's beatable with a newly designed language, it beats everything else on anagolf's list hollow
09:57:00 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't read xkcd
09:57:57 <AnMaster> hm... seems like a humor program according to wikipedia. Then xkcd make even less sense
10:08:09 <AnMaster> ais523, unusually mad concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_fountain
10:09:28 <ais523> AnMaster: OK, that's very clever, but insane
10:09:43 <ais523> especially as it might lead to the destruction of the surrounding countryside, or possibly the entire Earth, if the power supply failed
10:10:11 <AnMaster> ais523, and I think it would need enormous amount of energy...
10:10:30 <ais523> Wikipedia thinks it wouldn't survive re-entry, though, so you would only have a minor disaster on your hands
10:11:18 <ais523> incidentally, I just received an email saying "door controllers not working"
10:11:24 <ais523> but it was the internal doors this time for a change
10:11:42 <AnMaster> also would transporting people in that work? I mean the G force would be rather huge wouldn't it?
10:12:09 <ais523> I'm not entirely convinced that I could get back out again
10:12:12 <ais523> but I may try later today
10:12:24 <ais523> the doors are generally quite good at opening from the inside, though
10:12:47 <AnMaster> ais523, space elevator though, that sounds quite sane nowdays
10:13:23 <ais523> compared to the fountain
10:13:28 <ais523> I think they're both insane, personally
10:14:11 <AnMaster> ais523, would someone have thought the space shuttle insane back in 1850?
10:14:31 <ais523> but then, some people think the space shuttle insane even in 2009
10:15:15 <AnMaster> well, from an environmental viewpoint the whole rocket launch concept is insane...
10:15:40 <AnMaster> in that case a space elevator would actually be sane :D
10:15:45 <ais523> hmm... maybe not, I reckon most rocket fuels could be derivable from renewable sources in theory
10:17:01 <ais523> AnMaster: well, CO2 would be removed from the atmosphere as the fuels were made
10:17:16 <ais523> water vapour is unlikely to be much of a problem, it can cause global warming but most of it won't be at the right height
10:17:22 <ais523> nitrous oxides might be problematic
10:17:34 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launch_loop
10:18:54 <AnMaster> also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_ring
10:31:01 <ais523> AnMaster: I think that they're probably less insane than space elevators
10:31:08 <ais523> but still, I'm not entirely sure they'll be relevant any time soon
10:31:14 <ais523> we just don't have high-volume space traffic yet
10:31:31 <AnMaster> ais523, well that is maybe because of the costs?
10:32:06 <AnMaster> but I think we need to solve the environment issues first instead
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14:01:05 <ehird> oklopol: learn APL. trust me: http://se.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4
14:02:02 <ehird> because the reddit link was se.
14:02:11 <ehird> AnMaster: when did ais523 part
14:02:59 <ehird> except I was in #haskell overnight
14:03:12 <ehird> so when the bouncer spewed the backlog at me, it crashed my poor client because #haskell is really fucking active
14:03:18 <ehird> well, froze it up.
14:03:24 <ehird> so I'd have to open the logfile.
14:04:40 <ehird> <AnMaster> I was testing the best way to search for fingerprint to load
14:04:47 <ehird> Does it occur to you that that is not your bottleneck?
14:05:26 <AnMaster> ehird, also how comes your client froze from it?
14:05:33 <AnMaster> I mean, sounds like a poorly designed one
14:05:39 <ehird> AnMaster: because #haskell is really damn active (it's hard to keep up with)
14:05:43 <ehird> and I was offline for many hours
14:05:50 <ehird> and the bouncer doesn't do delays
14:06:12 <ehird> AnMaster: for example
14:06:13 <AnMaster> I'm also in #haskell, and ##linux, and #gentoo, all very active. And lots of other channels. When I reconnect the client is kind of slow for about 5 seconds or so
14:06:26 <ehird> haskell logs are 500KB on average
14:06:34 <AnMaster> ehird, yes and? I'm in there too
14:06:43 <AnMaster> and I have been disconnected over night as well
14:06:47 <ehird> so for the whole of 500KB, my client - written in Ruby, and using Cocoa... not the fastest combination -
14:06:57 <ehird> puts it in the log
14:07:00 <AnMaster> well my client is written in elisp
14:07:03 <ehird> and puts it in the "view of everything else"
14:07:07 <ehird> at the bottom of the sceen
14:07:09 <AnMaster> and the logging is done in bouncer
14:07:12 <ehird> repeat for ~500KB worth of lines
14:07:16 <ehird> AnMaster: umm, no shit
14:07:27 <ehird> it gets the log from the server
14:07:29 <ehird> and puts it in its log
14:08:38 <ehird> <AnMaster> what is "Mind of Mencia"
14:09:05 <ehird> Carlos Mencia is a douchebag "comedian" that steals all his jokes and isn't funny in the slightest. At least, that's what the interwebs hivemind says.
14:11:52 <AnMaster> ehird, ok APL is really "wow", but the keyboard layout must be horrible
14:11:59 <ehird> it's not a keyboard layout, IIRC
14:12:06 <ehird> you type with a regular ascii keyboard and get APL instead
14:12:13 <ehird> multi-key operators, I think
14:12:21 <ehird> well, in modern ones
14:12:24 <ehird> old ones had their own keyboard
14:12:33 <ehird> also check out J and K, which are basically ascii apl
14:12:36 <ehird> but they're less cool.
14:12:37 <AnMaster> that sounds rather irritating to type, I mean somewhat like { is AltGr-7 on Swedish keyboards
14:12:43 <AnMaster> which is irritating when coding in C
14:12:52 <ehird> I think it balances out because you barely need to type.
14:13:24 <ehird> http://www.dyalog.com/linux.htm Dyalog APL (used in that video) for Linux
14:13:28 <ehird> I see no download linnk, though.
14:13:33 <ehird> It's non-free, of course.
14:13:37 <ehird> Linux License Fees
14:13:40 <ehird> Developer 32 bit incl. Support & Upgrades
14:13:45 <ehird> annual license fee
14:14:04 <ehird> I can't believe APL is popular enough for that to actually be profitable :-P
14:15:51 <AnMaster> it is like those VHDL stuff, so few buy it that the per-unit price must be very very high
14:16:19 <FireFly> [15:12:43] <AnMaster> which is irritating when coding in C
14:16:23 <AnMaster> hm.... that isn't correct... stuff is singular
14:16:45 <FireFly> I press altgr+7 so often that I'm used t o it
14:17:01 <AnMaster> FireFly, well too, but it is still irritating
14:17:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I wonder if there is any open source APL implementation
14:17:36 <ehird> Probably. They probably suck too.
14:17:55 <AnMaster> also I wonder what befunge-98 in APL would look like. Apart from that most people wouldn't be able to read it
14:17:56 <ehird> The APL/J/K kind of languages seem to have something about them leading to that.
14:18:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Concise. :p
14:18:07 <ehird> I mean, heck, fungespace would be trivial
14:18:18 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but what about IO?
14:18:44 <ehird> well... I think most APL implementations have system interface libraries
14:18:52 <ehird> but you're not meant to use them
14:19:11 <ehird> Well, most APL programmers don't make binaries.
14:19:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> The APL/J/K kind of languages seem to have something about them leading to that. <-- maybe because they seem to be write-once languages?
14:19:26 <ehird> Primarily, as far as I can tell, they develop in the REPL and stuff,
14:19:30 <ehird> then it's run from there
14:19:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Nah, I can read that stuff to a degree
14:19:44 <ehird> it's just a learning curve
14:19:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well, and a different paradigm
14:20:23 <AnMaster> yes, that makes the learning curve unusually steep
14:20:52 <ehird> AnMaster: http://nsl.com/papers/befunge93.htm Befunge-93 in K, with a GUI interface
14:21:11 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, you can watch the IP go around
14:21:18 <ehird> and it also has a console interface.
14:21:27 <ehird> AnMaster: http://nsl.com/k/befunge93.k
14:21:52 <ehird> that INCLUDES the gui
14:22:02 <AnMaster> befunge-98 would of course be a bit longer, but yes very concise
14:22:03 <ehird> and it's only like 2 pages of code
14:22:16 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't very readable though
14:22:27 <ehird> no? that explains it then :P
14:22:39 <FireFly> I don't know a single command of that
14:22:41 <FireFly> W.P:80 25#,," "/ program window
14:22:42 <FireFly> W.P..bg:{:[_i~|P[1;2];999900;999999]}/ yellow cell is current pointer
14:22:47 <AnMaster> it looks like some of those "lots of operators, but 1D" languages "B::"";b:{[f]if[~#B;B::0:`];r:f B;B::(#r)_ B;r}"
14:23:17 <ehird> I don't think that has any explicit loops at all
14:23:22 <ehird> most APL/J/K programs don't
14:23:39 <ehird> (they use vector operations instead, since array programming language)
14:23:55 <AnMaster> ehird, also I wonder how fast it would run game of life? as fast as jitfunge?
14:24:00 <ehird> http://nsl.com/ has a bunch of other APL/J/K code btw
14:24:03 <ehird> AnMaster: um... no :P
14:24:11 <ehird> It'll probably be not very fast.
14:24:13 <AnMaster> ehird, probably not as fast as cfunge either ;)
14:24:24 <ehird> Probably around ccbi speed, I guess.
14:24:41 <ehird> (The array programming language family have _very_ optimised vector operations)
14:26:09 <ehird> AnMaster: here's something impressive:
14:26:23 <AnMaster> gcc-befunge, someone should make it... (yes I realise this means me probably... and I might if I have time at some point)
14:27:02 <ehird> AnMaster: shortest sudoku solver, evar, in K:
14:27:03 <ehird> f:{$[&/x;,x;,/f'@[x;i;:;]'&27=x[,/p i:x?0]?!10]}
14:27:07 <ehird> written by the creator of K
14:27:12 <ehird> that's _really_ short
14:27:31 <ehird> and a comment from him:
14:27:32 <ehird> "a few more bytes with a greedy algorithm is one million times faster on some harder puzzles .. (30ms instead of 1 hour) "
14:27:34 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: OK, that's very clever, but insane <-- that comment *could* have been about APL, but in fact it was about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_fountain
14:27:48 <ehird> yeah I read the logs :P
14:28:01 <AnMaster> ehird, have you seen the sudoku solved in *.deb
14:28:25 <AnMaster> don't remember which part handles what
14:28:55 <AnMaster> ehird, did he post that longer version?
14:29:06 <ehird> not that I can see, it's probably on the google somewhere
14:30:20 <AnMaster> which is like HQ9+ but has s for "solve sudoku"
14:30:37 <AnMaster> FireFly, because it doesn't make sense :D
14:31:02 <ehird> someone make a sudoku program that only runs as root
14:31:09 <ehird> stop stealing my bad jokes
14:31:10 <AnMaster> ehird, hah I won by one second
14:31:22 <ehird> 14:31 <ehird> someone make a sudoku program that only runs as root
14:31:23 <ehird> 14:31 <AnMaster> sudo ku?
14:31:28 <FireFly> Well I won by 5 secs in thinking
14:31:32 <ehird> (but it was clearly unconnected)
14:31:42 <AnMaster> ehird, for me it was 15:31:01 <AnMaster> sudo ku? 15:31:02 <ehird> someone make a sudoku program that only runs as root
14:31:47 <ehird> ku would of course have to be a KDE program
14:32:13 <FireFly> There'd had to be a "Q" program, so that the KDE one is Ku
14:32:15 <ehird> AnMaster: isn't it kdesu
14:32:22 <ehird> and I know, you're meant to use it
14:32:26 <ehird> to avoid home directory stuff I think
14:32:50 <ehird> I always read kdesu as "K desu" and then I read it as "K desu desu desu desu desu desu" and then I die.
14:33:08 * AnMaster googles desu since he forgot what that meme was about
14:33:35 <ehird> I think by now it's more or less completely meaningless.
14:33:35 <AnMaster> "# A Japanese copula, or word used to grammatically link a subject and predicate. i.e. It is a Japanese verb meaning "to be"." "# An abbreviation for Delaware State University."
14:33:38 <ehird> And therefore zen.
14:33:45 <AnMaster> "# The nickname of Suiseiseki, a fictional character in Rozen Maiden, which is also used as a meme."
14:33:56 <ehird> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Desu, but the likelyhood of you clicking an ED link is approximately 0
14:34:22 <ehird> Not later down the page.
14:34:41 <FireFly> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcaW_ZYWSbo
14:35:08 <FireFly> Interesting how many meanings one word can have
14:35:14 <FireFly> Comparing the subs to the vocals
14:35:47 <ehird> Cavemanime: "ug ug ug ug ug ug ug ug ug"
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15:00:06 <pikhq> FireFly: Perhaps one should study Japanese. ;)
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15:12:15 <oklopol> ais523: impomatic: ah, I remember anagold <<< lul i did the same typo
15:15:18 <impomatic> I think I'm going to implement Underload
15:19:47 <oklopol> ehird: The APL/J/K kind of languages seem to have something about them leading to that. <<< maybe because they're point-free for the most part?
15:20:00 <ehird> how is that related to having shitty open source implementations
15:20:33 <oklopol> i thought you were referring to being hard to read, based on what anmaster answered
15:21:06 <oklopol> forget i said that or i will kill you.
15:25:29 <oklopol> i'm still far from good at it.
15:34:41 <oklopol> j would do that the same way, except some of the stuff like "apply to each" there can be omitted in j
15:35:19 <ehird> oklopol: yeah but it looks cooler
15:35:26 <ehird> because it's ap fucking l and has its own character set
15:36:26 <oklopol> anyway would be so cool to be able to write j/apl that fast
15:36:32 <oklopol> i mean it just looks so awesome
15:36:59 <oklopol> of course i probably could if i wrote it a bit more, i haven't really tried writing anything in it, so i'm fairly slow.
15:37:29 <FireFly> Someone should implement Sir. Cut
15:37:39 <FireFly> I tried, but it didn't work out well
15:40:30 <ehird> http://www.hortont.com/racarr/?p=27
15:43:12 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Life
15:44:53 <FireFly> 'only "20 cartridges or less" of Video Life were ever made.'
15:45:08 <ehird> Yes. Also quite slow :P
15:55:39 <ehird> oklopol: i have a GoL quesitonnnnnnnnnnnnnn
15:55:51 <ehird> wouldn't it be possible to be really efficient by storing the neighbour count of cells?
15:55:54 <ehird> then just switching based on that
15:57:48 <pikhq> One still needs to store each cell's state and update the state of the surrounding cells...
15:58:02 <pikhq> Also, that takes up a fuckton of memory.
15:58:40 <pikhq> If you want to be really efficient, go with hashlife. ;)
16:00:29 <oklopol> ehird: you just move the problem of checking all neighbors.
16:00:58 <oklopol> you'd get one check for deciding next state, but you'd have to propagate the state to neighboring neighbor counts
16:44:52 <ehird> #tokipona in too many lines:
16:44:53 <ehird> 16:44 Potkan has joined (n=Potkan@a40-unl1-2-27.static.adsl.vol.cz)
16:44:53 <ehird> 16:44 <Potkan> Saluton.
16:44:55 <ehird> 16:44 <donri> toki :)
16:44:57 <ehird> 16:44 <Potkan> Good evening.
16:44:59 <ehird> 16:44 <Potkan> toki
16:45:05 <ehird> 16:44 <donri> hello
16:45:07 <ehird> 16:44 <Potkan> coi
16:45:09 <ehird> 16:44 <donri> saluton
16:45:11 <ehird> 16:44 <Potkan> hej
16:45:13 <ehird> 16:44 <Potkan> hello
16:45:17 <ehird> They're still at it .
17:21:22 <AnMaster> ais is sure having a long lunch...
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17:47:53 <ehird> "A type system powerful enough to express exactly what a function does would be quite nice."
17:47:57 <ehird> Aka, a programming language.
17:48:03 <ehird> (ihope 2007-07-30)
17:54:43 <oklopol> so i was thinking about a stack-based logic programming language
17:58:33 <oklopol> and i made a program snippet that solved a sudoku with it
17:58:40 <oklopol> and it was longer than the k thing
17:58:46 <ehird> showshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshowshow
17:59:27 <oklopol> well, i kinda deleted the thingie.
17:59:37 <oklopol> and it was fairly half-assed
17:59:51 <ehird> IT SOUNDS PHUN MOBILE
18:02:49 <oklopol> blah how the fuck does k do it :|
18:03:14 <ehird> JUST GIMME THE KOE
18:04:23 <oklopol> something like this: A(1,9)@A(3,3)/adA(1,9)/adA(9,1)/ad
18:04:52 <ehird> dude that's pretty um how did it work
18:04:54 <oklopol> basically the solving just means specifying the rules of sudoku
18:06:01 <ehird> oklopol now write it IN APL
18:07:05 <oklopol> so, A(1,9)@ means all elements of A are from set {1, 2.. 9}
18:07:18 <ehird> but thats not stack based
18:07:21 <oklopol> the rest is predefined splicings.
18:07:39 <oklopol> just you can't really see it because i named the array.
18:08:06 <ehird> don't name ANYTHING :|
18:08:45 <oklopol> A(3,3)/ad; (3,3)/ is a splicing that splits the axes evenly in three parts, same semantics as in oklotalk
18:09:02 <oklopol> ad is just alldiff, its rank is 1
18:09:09 <ehird> don't name ANYTHING :|
18:09:15 <oklopol> (it's also an array-processing language ofc)
18:09:39 <oklopol> stack-based logic programming array-processing language
18:10:03 <oklopol> well you don't have to name it, but here it's shorter that way
18:10:09 <ehird> don't name ANYTHING :|
18:10:48 <oklopol> could just do the operations on shallow copies of A using ":"
18:12:44 <lament> so why don't you kill me
18:15:02 <ehird> 18:11 <oklopol> hello lament
18:15:03 <ehird> 18:11 <oklopol> who are you?
18:15:06 <ehird> 18:12 <lament> i'm a loser baby
18:15:08 <ehird> 18:13 <lament> so why don't you kill me
18:15:10 <ehird> 18:13 <oklopol> yeah that's a good song
18:15:12 <ehird> The best of #esoteric.
18:18:01 <lament> that's pretty depressing.
18:18:30 <ehird> lament: protip: oklopol is never serious
18:18:33 <ehird> even when he's serious
18:18:52 <lament> I'm always serious, even when I'm not.
18:19:13 <lament> Does that make me all that different from oklopol?
18:26:05 <oklopol> lament: DO YOU STILL KNOW MENTAL IS AN ANAGRAMMAR OF YOUR NICK?
18:26:29 <oklopol> i was like "wow cool, wait old"
18:26:53 <lament> oklopol: have you noticed i was 'lamente' for a few days
18:27:01 <lament> it means 'the mind' in Spanish
18:28:08 <lament> actually ment means mind in catalan, i wonder if the article is still 'la'
18:29:10 <oklopol> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mente_(psicolog%C3%ADa)
18:30:01 <lament> my nick means 'the mind' in Catalan
18:32:47 <oklopol> "actually 'ment' means..." i thought that was a typo of "meant"
18:33:28 <oklopol> was kinda wondering why you completely ignored what i said; now i realize it's because i was being an idiot.
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18:59:41 <ehird> <lament> is 23 your IQ?
18:59:52 <ehird> 2007-08-02, on the subject of asiekierka's IQ
19:00:00 <ehird> (using the nick "squazr23")
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19:02:12 <oklopol> i hear these iq tests are a bunch of woodoo magic.
19:05:36 <ehird> asiekierka's bot was amusing
19:05:37 <ehird> <asiebot> A computer is a body fluid that carries food and obtaining energy and vital substances from within the body.
19:08:12 <ehird> <asiebot> asiekierka: The lungs are organs used for filtering urine from the blood.
19:08:24 <ehird> <asiebot> ehird`: Asiebot is a tree native to australia where it is the basic living substance of all the judges i've had the strangest dream... I dreamed i killed you again.
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19:09:07 <ehird> it was just a megahal
19:09:12 <ehird> since asiekierka can't program
19:09:21 <ehird> so, markov chain essentially
19:10:14 <ehird> <asiebot> asiekierka: You love ehird`.
19:11:24 <ehird> <asiebot> asiekierka: Blood is a cell which receives and transmits electrical impulses.
19:11:27 <ehird> <asiebot> asiekierka: Say stfu to the muzzle of a lot easier, just so long as i'm the dictator." - george w. Bush.
19:12:18 <ehird> <asiebot> ehird`: Ehird` is not a dumb computer program that translates high level language code into machine language code.
19:12:40 <ehird> 12:00:57 <asiekierka> asiebot: What is love?
19:12:40 <ehird> 12:01:09 <asiebot> asiekierka: I hate you.
19:13:12 <ehird> <asiebot> ehird`: I guess if someone says "fuck is a limb extending from the initials of other words.
19:14:15 <ehird> <asiebot> ehird`: Asiekierka is a sensory organ found on the head with the mzx community and pancake, and the anger from someone poking me.
19:14:26 <ehird> <asiebot> ehird`: Asiekierka is a bony girdle in vertebrates that connects the head with the mzx community and pancake, and the anger from someone poking me.
19:15:59 <ehird> <asiebot> A pub is a confectionery made from cocoa beans.
19:19:45 <ehird> it was more intelligent than its owner
19:21:06 <AnMaster> ehird, so the bot would win in a turing test if asie was the human?
19:22:25 <lament> smarter != wins the turing test
19:22:59 <AnMaster> also it would be fun if the bot faked being the human
19:23:31 <lament> Why do you think the human faked being the bot?
19:23:35 <AnMaster> would a human manage to act as incoherent as a bot?
19:23:46 <AnMaster> so a kind of reverse turing test
19:23:58 <AnMaster> lament, and I don't think the human faked, I just suggest it would be fun to try
19:24:02 <lament> Sounds interesting. Tell me more.
19:24:21 <lament> Why do you think haha?
19:24:42 <AnMaster> You mentioned a faked human before? Tell me more about your faked human.
19:27:05 <AnMaster> lament, hey, running two Eliza against each other is fun, you need something to start them off though
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19:31:05 <FireFly> I'd like to see two fungots talking to each other
19:31:06 <fungot> FireFly: do you think it's good that he knows what he's talking about a real bite though. more like doing what is in the same sentence as per bothner will probably give riastradh a fish!
19:31:33 <AnMaster> FireFly, that cause an annoying endless loopi
19:31:40 <ehird> per bothner will probably give riastradh a fish!
19:32:17 <AnMaster> FireFly, however after that fungot started limited number of same lines per person
19:32:17 <fungot> AnMaster: i don't have scheme48, i assume
19:32:20 <oklopol> annoying infinite loop? seriously, two bots talking to each other = annoying infinite loop? that's just.. surprising :O
19:32:32 <AnMaster> so it will only answer the same person 4 times in a row
19:32:40 <AnMaster> before ignoring until someone else speak too it
19:32:53 <AnMaster> a 3 bot loop is still possible
19:35:25 <oklopol> was writing on another channel
19:35:59 <oklopol> yes, accidentally clicked it open at the last few chars
19:35:59 <AnMaster> oklopol, then it is customary to write: "
19:36:49 <AnMaster> ehird, not saying I like irssi
19:37:06 <ehird> no, you think you're being funny
19:37:11 <AnMaster> I'm just saying it is funny when they manage to write " /w 23" or such
19:37:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not trying to be funny
19:37:53 <oklopol> en minä nyt oikein tajua mistä puhutte, taidan jatkaa algebran tehtävien kyöntiä
19:39:49 <oklopol> what's the point of writing in finnish if i just translate it right after
19:40:07 <oklopol> i mean what the fuck, i've been doing this exercise for 50 minutes now
19:40:42 <oklopol> well algebra, i'm never sure what term to use for uni schoolwork
19:40:53 <oklopol> we call them "demonstrations"
19:41:22 <oklopol> that's what the situation is called, but so are the exercises for some reason.
19:41:40 <oklopol> i mean when you liek demonstrate them to the class and shit.
19:42:19 <AnMaster> does google translate handle *.fi?
19:42:48 <AnMaster> "I now I really understand what you are talking about, going to continue the algebra of kyöntiä"
19:43:31 <FireFly> Just add an ! in front of it
19:43:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, you mean it should have been "I now really doesn't understand what you are talking about"?
19:44:03 <AnMaster> ok that is a major fail of google
19:44:04 <oklopol> AnMaster: "now i don't really understand what you're talking about..."
19:44:26 <oklopol> it's just in a different place in finnish, but almost the same construct
19:44:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, and where is the negation bit?
19:45:09 <oklopol> anyway, google did fail the latter part of the sentence, but so would fizzie.
19:45:19 <oklopol> i wasn't exactly expecting you to care what i said.
19:45:37 <oklopol> AnMaster: because "kyö" is a verb used only by vjn.
19:46:12 <FireFly> You lost me somewhere near token 1 on row 1
19:46:18 <oklopol> it means pretty much anything, we have tons of words you need to guess from context.
19:46:35 <AnMaster> at least you can understand Norwegian but Finnish is just strange...
19:46:58 <AnMaster> language family mess up over there I'm afraid
19:47:13 <AnMaster> isn't it closest to Japanese or something? I forgot
19:47:19 <oklopol> okay second attempt at the exercise; fucked up an equation there
19:47:19 <FireFly> Hungarian I believe it is?
19:47:31 <oklopol> should probably get matlab or something
19:48:18 <AnMaster> FireFly, I think it was oklopol or fizzie that claimed that a Finnish thought a lot of foreign people thought "Noika" was Japanese
19:49:01 <AnMaster> I always thought it was Finnish
19:49:23 <AnMaster> whooo gcc 4.3.3 hit stable on arch linux
19:50:14 <AnMaster> arch linux is probably the most bleeding edge distro I know
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19:57:39 <GregorR> Spam subject line: "There is a little mess in your pants - change it to a big order."
19:58:18 <lament> by the well-ordering principle
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20:04:57 <ehird> <ihope> I should look at Lojban.
20:08:28 <ehird> he certainly did :P
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20:13:57 <oklopol> AnMaster: I always thought it was Finnish <<< probably living closer to nokia than i do, you're not exactly a prime example of a foreigner.
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20:15:48 <oklopol> where are all the immense congratulations
20:17:37 <oklopol> what's that thing in yer hand is it a present for me
20:22:25 <AnMaster> <oklopol> AnMaster: I always thought it was Finnish <<< probably living closer to nokia than i do, you're not exactly a prime example of a foreigner. <-- eh?
20:23:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, Stockholm is closer to any part of Finland than I am
20:23:24 <oklopol> AnMaster: and do i live in stockholm?
20:23:26 <AnMaster> and I got no idea where in Finland Nokia is
20:23:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, no but Stockholm is pretty far from Finland
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20:24:04 <oklopol> i live about 150 km from stockholm, nokia is a lot farther.
20:24:31 <oklopol> so yeah i was indeed lying about you living closer than me; but the difference is not that great
20:24:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, so what is the distance for you?
20:24:56 <oklopol> you might catch my bullshits.
20:25:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, what do you mean "your bullshits"?
20:25:16 <AnMaster> "We apologize for the inconvenience, but Google Earth has crashed."
20:25:41 <AnMaster> reproducible every time I start it
20:25:57 <oklopol> AnMaster: i mean i'm throwing the numbers from absolutely nowhere.
20:25:58 <FireFly> It'd be nice if they wrote "the Earth"
20:26:23 <FireFly> "We're sorry, but the Earth has crashed."
20:26:32 <FireFly> Like, if it'd be their fault if the world ended
20:28:18 <oklopol> AnMaster: if your seriously going to measure, i live in turku
20:28:32 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes I am if I get google earth running
20:28:40 <oklopol> in case you don't know that, i've mentioned it quite a few times
20:29:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, indeed I didn't remember the name of the city
20:29:31 <oklopol> well just use the mesh-current method to find the branch currents
20:29:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, best would of course be from the correct house
20:29:55 <oklopol> well. i'm not sure i want to divulge that
20:30:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, and your CC number of course too!
20:30:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, anyway what did you mean with "<oklopol> well just use the mesh-current method to find the branch currents"
20:30:55 <oklopol> AnMaster: lol just assume it's random if you don't get it :P
20:31:01 <oklopol> AnMaster: very close to campus, if that helps
20:31:58 <oklopol> turku is the international name afaik
20:32:53 <AnMaster> from you to Nokia about 132 km
20:33:12 <AnMaster> from you to Stockholm around 265 km
20:33:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, by roads it may be longer
20:33:59 <oklopol> there's a pretty straight highway there, it's just i thought it was a lot futher down it.
20:34:12 <oklopol> k. i guess a bit more then.
20:34:13 <AnMaster> I'm not going to give the distance to any other point
20:34:20 <AnMaster> don't want you to triangulate my position
20:34:47 <oklopol> how far do you live from me just out of curiosity
20:34:50 <AnMaster> actually put that marker wrong, it is more like 560 km
20:35:30 <AnMaster> I was just correcting the distance to Nokia
20:37:27 <FireFly> [21:35:15] <AnMaster> oklopol, no I didn't
20:37:51 <oklopol> yeah the i and you keys are right next to each other
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21:37:41 <kerlo> Have I mentioned that I've decided to refer to everyone using first-person pronouns?
21:37:47 <kerlo> Not that I've actually been doing so.
21:38:01 <kerlo> Hi, everyone. How am I doing?
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22:41:01 <oerjan> <ais523> water vapour is unlikely to be much of a problem, it can cause global warming but most of it won't be at the right height
22:42:06 <oerjan> i don't _really_ know but i would imagine that the atmosphere stays pretty much saturated with water vapour, so adding more is very temporary (hydrological cycle)
22:42:34 <oklopol> haha you and your silly anecdotes
22:42:41 <oerjan> i mean, we have huge oceans precisely because you _cannot_ add most of it to the atmosphere
22:43:43 <oerjan> so while water vapour is the most important greenhouse gas, it's much less important for global warming because it's self-regulating
22:44:34 <oerjan> also, why didn't i check if ais523 was here before starting blathering :(
22:46:01 <oerjan> (it could still _strengthen_ global warming i think, because warming the atmosphere makes it have a higher water vapor threshold)
22:46:34 <oerjan> obviously this stuff has to be well-known
22:48:51 * oklopol tries to come up with something completely nonsensical, but fails miserably.
22:49:16 <oerjan> i can help you with that by shaving this iguana
22:49:50 <oklopol> haha an iguana that's like givin birth to a sevenfold quilt :D
22:50:33 <oerjan> yes and without the lactose too
22:51:13 <oklopol> you know how it is with these verifiables.
22:51:37 <oerjan> yes heine was known for his predicates
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22:56:37 <oklopol> and i hear it in cracker a minute later
22:56:44 <oklopol> (tv show i don't even watch)
22:57:28 <oklopol> well it's not not that common, but, you know, i wasn't actually watching, i turn my head on the screen, and the guy uses it
22:57:37 <oerjan> it's a sign. you must now convert to tibetan buddhism and go live in a small hut at the base of mount everest.
22:58:09 <ehird> there's a word for that
22:58:15 <ehird> i.e., you just use/find out about something
22:58:17 <ehird> bam, there it is again
22:58:21 <ehird> it's a special condition thing
22:58:59 <oerjan> synchronicity is one word for it but i guess you mean something more specific
22:59:03 <oklopol> yeah. a phenomenon i noticed when i was like 7, and heard about when someone here linked it
22:59:10 <ehird> something more specific yes
22:59:15 <ehird> it basically comes down to
22:59:20 <ehird> no, it isn't uncommon, your brain just didn't notice it
22:59:24 <ehird> because it wasn't interesting previous times
23:01:08 <oklopol> i don't recall when i last used the word, so i was very conscious when i did just now
23:02:28 <oklopol> but still, i did actually turn my head just before the guy used it, so there's definitely *some* magic involved (he yelled something during a lecture or something just before using it)
23:02:44 <oklopol> (and i was like huh whatchayellin)
23:03:15 <oklopol> (i still don't know what he yellin)
23:03:46 <oerjan> it's a law of nature. if any atheist hears about it, the evidence must be just vague enough that he can claim to explain it away.
23:04:55 <oklopol> i had religious thoughts the other day. well more like spiritual. caffeine made me feel alive and philosophical.
23:05:19 <oklopol> then i proceeded reading about software engineering, and all was numb again
23:05:26 <oerjan> ic maybe i should drink more coffee
23:05:40 * oerjan is down to a couple cups a day
23:05:45 <oklopol> well caffeine, taurine and a few others
23:05:55 <oklopol> i don't really drink coffee anymore, it's too much work
23:05:59 <ehird> oklopol: i thought you said religious people were obsolete
23:06:09 <oklopol> ehird: yes, i still think so :D
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23:06:25 <ehird> <oerjan> it's a law of nature. if any atheist hears about it, the evidence must be just vague enough that he can claim to explain it away.
23:06:30 <ehird> Atheism != rationalism.
23:07:21 <oerjan> well ok if an _irrational_ atheist hears about it, the evidence can be conclusive and he still won't believe it :D
23:07:25 <oklopol> ehird: my religious thoughts are usually about greater universes containing this one as a simulation; i don't actually believe in that stuff, but it just sounds so appealing i might not die when i die.
23:07:39 <oklopol> because, you know, life is awesome
23:07:50 <ehird> i don't want to lose conciousness.
23:07:58 <oklopol> i'm much less afraid of it than i was, say, at your age
23:08:19 <oklopol> i think it's normal for the fear to lessen with time, at least it would make sense
23:08:24 <ehird> I used to not be afraid of death at all. Then I realised, you know, it was death. End of.
23:09:29 <oklopol> ehird: it's probably not that scary once you actually experience it ;)
23:09:50 <ehird> Well, that's the thing isn't it. You can't exactly reflect on death.
23:09:59 <oklopol> i should get back on my electronics
23:10:09 <ehird> It's just impossible to imagine not ... existing. I mean, obviously. Because existing is the only perspective you can percieve things through.
23:12:13 <kerlo> When you die, you forget everything and become someone else instead.
23:12:35 <oklopol> that doesn't sound very plausible
23:12:47 <oklopol> somewhat appealing of course
23:12:52 <ehird> If you forget everything, whether you're you is... debatable.
23:13:16 <kerlo> That's why you become someone you had an especially great amount of impact on.
23:13:22 <ehird> I also hate the idea of a heaven... I don't like a segregated world where you can only watch life and everyone you know is dead.
23:13:42 <kerlo> That's why cool people are Alcor members.
23:14:00 <oklopol> i've always wanted to be like a janitor in a big building
23:14:20 <oklopol> just watch people from my little peepholes in the walls
23:14:21 <kerlo> I've always wanted to quit everything and explore the world.
23:14:59 <kerlo> Preferably an enclosed world, so that I don't have to get cold when it snows.
23:15:03 <oklopol> YOU MEAN LIKE YOUR IRC CLIENT
23:15:16 <kerlo> I'd bring an IRC headset along!
23:15:28 <kerlo> Type with my jaws. It's not that difficult once you get used to it, you see.
23:16:00 <oklopol> if you don't die, there's no reason to let your brain feel cold.
23:16:18 <kerlo> I can die, though.
23:17:26 <oklopol> if i'm doing mesh current and i have a current source, umm, how the fuck does that work? :\
23:17:44 <oklopol> then again that's not very helpful either
23:17:58 <kerlo> So, transcranial brain stimulation.
23:18:20 <kerlo> Transcranial magnetic stimulation.
23:18:58 <kerlo> It blasts your brain for a while, so after you're done, that part of your brain doesn't work for a while.
23:19:58 <kerlo> And you become an autistic savant! Kind of.
23:20:03 <kerlo> Does that sound interesting?
23:20:06 * oklopol learned today about a condition where you can only perceive one object at a time :o
23:20:23 <oklopol> kerlo: definitely, i've always wanted to be an autistic savant
23:20:43 <oerjan> i vaguely thought magnetism had little effect on human biology
23:20:47 <oklopol> currently i'm just good at stuff, and not that practical.
23:20:56 <oerjan> i mean, otherwise MRI would be dangerous
23:20:59 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation
23:21:24 <kerlo> Good at stuff like knowing what d^2f(x,y)/dxdy means?
23:22:06 <oklopol> i do know what that means, but that's more about knowing stuff than being good
23:22:07 <oerjan> oh it's rapidly changing magnetism, which is essentially electromagnetic
23:22:34 <oklopol> kerlo: what i mean is i'm like the square root of autistic savant, like most nerds.
23:22:58 <kerlo> oklopol: how would you explain it?
23:23:45 <oklopol> i would have to tell you what i know it means.
23:23:57 <oklopol> explaining has little to do with math
23:24:14 <kerlo> Please explain it, then?
23:24:28 <ehird> oklopol: he's trying to get you to do his homework
23:25:46 <kerlo> Yeah, since students of this class are all able to visualize things like that.
23:26:02 <oklopol> i mean how can i explain it without somehow telling you what it means?
23:26:15 <oklopol> that's impossible by definition
23:26:44 <kerlo> My explanation would be something like "d^2f(x,y)/dxdy is how twisty it is".
23:26:59 <oklopol> kerlo: what nice intuitive nonsense.
23:27:44 <kerlo> Useful intuitive nonsense.
23:27:50 <kerlo> ...or maybe it's not useful at all.
23:27:50 <oklopol> that's what my intuition about differentials says; but i do not know what differentials are.
23:28:33 <oklopol> it may be useful. but in math, you should keep intuition to yourself unless teaching.
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23:28:44 <oklopol> at least that's how i perceive the field
23:29:02 <kerlo> Should I continue trying to determine how intelligent you are compared to me?
23:29:31 <oklopol> while you're at it, answer my question
23:30:06 <kerlo> I don't know how possible it is to explain something without saying what it means. I don't think I asked you to do that.
23:30:41 <ehird> i think you're both stupid.
23:30:43 <oklopol> anyway, the calculus i'm taking does not define differentials. haven't seen a definition for them, and i've heard TRWBW say they are more of an intuitive concept.
23:31:22 <oklopol> kerlo: it was my own addition.
23:31:31 <kerlo> You got TRWBW to call something an intuitive concept? Wow. :-)
23:31:45 <oklopol> kerlo: it's not a matter of opinion
23:31:49 <kerlo> I like ehird's frankness.
23:32:05 <oklopol> in this case it's a matter of my lack of knowledge.
23:32:11 <oklopol> i don't know shit about calculus
23:32:19 <oerjan> no definition of the differential by limits? oh well i guess they might do that in engineering courses
23:32:36 <oklopol> oerjan: naturally there's a definition of the differential by limits
23:32:38 <kerlo> TRWBW is the guy in #math whose opinion is generally "mathematics is fundamentally about formal rules; therefore, most things in mathematics are generally best understood as formal rules".
23:32:41 <ehird> ... wait, is he a person in that #math place?
23:32:54 <ehird> kerlo: I assume he likes metamath, then.
23:32:56 <oklopol> oerjan: but differentials are used in actual calculations.
23:33:04 <ehird> Because it's soo easy to understand, right?
23:33:13 <oerjan> oklopol: you said "the calculus i'm taking does not define differentials. haven't seen a definition for them,"
23:33:14 <ehird> http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/2p2e4.html
23:33:19 <ehird> Best way to understand 2+2=4
23:33:21 <kerlo> ehird: how smart are you?
23:33:27 <oklopol> which makes absolutely no sense to me, i asked the lecturer what the fuck that was about, and he muttered something about the course being for non-mathematicians.
23:33:32 <lament> ehird is incredibly smart for his age
23:33:38 <lament> he's the smartest 4-year-old i know
23:33:47 <ehird> lament: harsh, man. harsh.
23:33:58 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah sorry, for differentials, no definition.
23:34:11 <oklopol> you're welcome to supply me with one
23:34:19 <kerlo> Well, he's obviously smart enough to be doing esoteric programming at the age of 12.
23:34:32 <ehird> Weren't you in here in 2005?
23:34:40 <ehird> If my calculations of everyone in #esoteric is correct, you'd have been 12 then.
23:34:44 <kerlo> I think I was also doing esoteric programming at the age of 12, indeed.
23:34:54 <oerjan> oklopol: um you are contradicting yourself
23:34:59 <ehird> I knew about Brainfuck since I was like 10, I think.
23:35:05 <oklopol> oerjan: not contradicting, correcting
23:35:10 <ehird> I only actually wrote programs in it when I was like 11 though. Even then barely
23:35:29 <oklopol> oerjan: derivatives and integrals were defined via limits, differentials not
23:35:36 <lament> I only learned about esoteric programming at 65
23:35:44 <lament> a latecomer to the field so to speak
23:35:47 <oerjan> oklopol: ok, d f(x) / dx = lim_{h -> 0} (f(x+h)-f(x))/h
23:35:58 <oklopol> oerjan: that's the definition of derivative
23:36:17 <oklopol> those are the differentials
23:36:28 <oerjan> i am not aware of any distinction between derivative and differential :D
23:36:30 <oklopol> they gave us that definition, and started using them as if they were numbers.
23:36:39 <kerlo> For quite a while, I've wanted to take a GCSE and be done with high school.
23:36:44 <oerjan> they're the same thing
23:36:54 <oklopol> oerjan: well, does it sound feasible to you to multiply d f(x)/dx by dx?
23:37:03 <oklopol> that's what you do when dx is a differential
23:37:05 <oerjan> oh you mean separately
23:37:52 <oklopol> oerjan: yes, afaiu a differential means an infitesimal number two of whose division gives the derivative.... that is, blabber blabber nonsense nonsense whappidippydoo.
23:38:01 <kerlo> Or A-Levels or something.
23:38:22 <oerjan> oklopol: hm right. it's usually done wishy-washy
23:38:27 <kerlo> I like to think of things like dx as simply meaning the derivative of x with respect to a universal implicit variable.
23:38:40 <oklopol> another lecturer said on a different occasion differentials can be defined via multivariable functions.
23:38:54 <oerjan> you _can_ do it with non-standard analysis, which uses some heavy logic to embed infinitesimals in set theory
23:38:54 <oklopol> and that i should probably just try to live with them for now.
23:39:35 <oklopol> kerlo: everyone likes to think things. that's called nonsense :D
23:39:45 -!- oklopol has changed nick to okloWBW.
23:40:47 <oerjan> okloWBW: well kerlo's idea probably works best in practice
23:41:09 <oerjan> at least until you start with partial derivatives
23:41:35 <okloWBW> i don't really care what works. i don't learn math because it's useful
23:42:36 <oerjan> okloWBW: of course this all goes back to leibnitz's notation (That d/dx stuff) which was really based on noting that treating stuff as infinitesimals mostly works
23:42:38 <kerlo> Partial dx is the partial derivative of x with respect to a different, non-universal implicit variable.
23:42:48 <oerjan> centuries before anyone defined it properly
23:44:52 <okloWBW> kerlo: doesn't sounds all that formal to mea.
23:45:41 <oerjan> okloWBW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Leibniz#Calculus is very relevant to our discussion
23:46:35 <kerlo> I think it can be formalized.
23:46:45 <ehird> okloWBW: can I ask a J q
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23:47:20 <okloWBW> kerlo: most likely. but i can't do it in my head just like that.
23:47:39 <ehird> okloWBW: what's the "mean" code again? this leads onto another q
23:48:13 <oerjan> okloWBW: also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_(infinitesimal) mentions several ways of making it rigorous
23:49:28 <ehird> okloWBW: so in (+ /% #), howcome it doesn't apply % to the functions themselves
23:49:35 <ehird> I mean, how does the implicit arg get fitted in?
23:52:14 <okloWBW> x (a b c) y means (x a y) b (x c y)
23:52:28 <ehird> that seems arbitrary
23:52:55 <okloWBW> it may be arbitrary, but it's extremely useful, and lets you write most functions without naming your arguments
23:53:10 <ehird> what about if I did
23:53:14 <okloWBW> although i definitely don't think it's arbitrary
23:53:20 <ehird> mean =: (+x)/%(#x)
23:53:23 <ehird> would it try and put the arg in?
23:53:52 <okloWBW> it would crash because x isn't defined
23:54:05 <ehird> assume x is the formal parameter.
23:54:33 <okloWBW> if x is a list, then (+x)/%(#x) is the mean of that list.
23:54:58 <ehird> so how come it doesn't feed in the arg automatically
23:55:01 <ehird> what's the rule for that
23:55:20 <okloWBW> oerjan: let's hope they teach me that in uni, i don't want to learn calculus on my own.
23:55:33 <okloWBW> because, well, i'm not really that interested in it
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23:55:50 <okloWBW> ehird: feed in the arg automatically..?
23:55:57 <okloWBW> i... don't know what you mean
23:56:13 <ehird> transform into, etc
23:56:17 <ehird> how does it know when to fork
23:56:36 <ehird> I see you dividing two functions.
23:56:48 <okloWBW> yes, the semantics of which i already defined
23:57:36 <okloWBW> essentially three adjacent functions evaluates to a lambda
23:57:59 <ehird> ascii art parse trees.
23:58:01 <ehird> I can't decide if that's fucking stupid or fucking awesome
23:58:20 <okloWBW> just a notational thing, i think you can change that somehow
23:58:27 <oerjan> ehird: it's very common in math to apply things to functions that way ("pointwise")
23:58:31 <ehird> how do you retrieve the previous line into the prompt in J?
23:59:06 <okloWBW> x doesn't need to be bound, those can be functions too
23:59:19 <okloWBW> you're just adding funcs then
23:59:30 <ehird> 23:58 <ehird> how do you retrieve the previous line into the prompt in J?
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