00:00:10 <oklopol> i could maybe do lojban minus gismu.
00:00:26 <oklopol> i was thinking you'd teach real life concepts to it yourself
00:03:17 <oklopol> but probably i'd go for a simpler language.
00:03:35 <oklopol> and, you know, more mathy.
00:03:49 <oklopol> closer to Absolute Fundamental semantics
00:04:06 * oklopol remembers a certain moment of madness
00:04:58 <FireFly> Hm, is A XOR B = (A+B)(¬(AB)) ?
00:06:42 <FireFly> I mananged to do the basics
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01:39:53 <AnMaster> I shall try to port it to python 3 while keeping it working under python 2
01:42:20 <oerjan> i think that's - not recommended.
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01:52:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, one of the devs use debian stable, if we didn't support both it would take like 5 years before we could upgrade!
01:52:41 <oerjan> no, trying to make something both Python 2 and 3
01:52:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, well the C module, not the python code
01:53:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, for the code you could just use 2to3
01:53:15 <AnMaster> not so for the C code embedding python
01:53:27 <AnMaster> http://docs.python.org/3.0/howto/cporting.html#cporting-howto
01:54:09 <oerjan> oh i was thinking you were going for a complete polyglot. at least that would be the properly insane thing.
01:54:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, impossible for the C API
01:54:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, as for that, it is just avoiding "print" and a few other things
01:54:53 <AnMaster> 2to3 shows that is basically one of the few changes
01:57:56 <AnMaster> $ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$HOME/local/python-3.0-dbg/lib PYTHON_HOME=/home/arvid/local/python-3.0-dbg ~/local/python-3.0-dbg/bin/2to3 *.py
01:57:56 <AnMaster> RefactoringTool: Skipping implicit fixer: buffer
01:57:56 <AnMaster> RefactoringTool: Skipping implicit fixer: idioms
01:57:56 <AnMaster> RefactoringTool: Skipping implicit fixer: set_literal
01:57:56 <AnMaster> RefactoringTool: Skipping implicit fixer: ws_comma
01:57:57 <AnMaster> RefactoringTool: No files need to be modified.
01:58:07 <AnMaster> of course it could still break
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02:50:33 <GregorR> There once was a man from Man-Fuck-Dick,
02:50:33 <GregorR> Whose horse enjoyed when he sucked it,
02:50:33 <GregorR> 'til the day that he moved to Nantucket.
02:54:01 <oerjan> Meta-meta-humor success?
02:55:54 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
02:56:18 <fungot> oerjan: i don't think exists? and all?
02:56:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, I need some data to feed into an eliza
02:56:41 <oerjan> fungot is being descartian today
02:56:42 <fungot> oerjan: hmn. first dead fnord family member in years. mother's father died when i was a big php advocate for awhile. not so much
02:56:57 <AnMaster> "mother's father died when i was a big php advocate for awhile"
02:57:56 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
02:58:02 <fungot> AnMaster: the tiles on graves and rotting temples flash like ripples, as earth's gods dance against it; i shall see the dancing forms of the people always represented by the sacred reptiles appeared to be, while the boys were overseas. some fateful mood impelled me to ask for work.
02:59:55 <fungot> AnMaster: after a time he became very numb and somnolent, moving more from automatic impulse than from reasoned fnord nor did he neglect a small store of gold for earthly use.
03:00:45 <oerjan> i'm not sure reasoned fnord is an improvement
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03:32:50 <psygnisfive> i need to add built ins to antigravity to allow for things like IO i think ya
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03:39:06 <psygnisfive> also, "uplift" is occasionally used as a verb to mean "increase the intelligence of some animal to the point of sentience"
03:39:18 <psygnisfive> so an uplifting function would be quite interesting to have!
03:40:21 <oerjan> it's a *whoosh* ... but but ... it comes back ... and hits!
03:41:10 <oerjan> well dent do that then
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04:10:41 <psygnisfive> i just had another idea for something to add to the AntiGravity system
04:10:51 <psygnisfive> besides types, which i will add eventually
04:11:29 <psygnisfive> you'll also be able to define attributes on the grammatical rules
04:11:54 <psygnisfive> so that you can not only define new parts of the grammar
04:12:20 <psygnisfive> but you'll also be able to perform attribute grammar types of computation while parsing
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07:11:51 <ski__> .. oh attribute grammars, shiny !
07:14:44 <psygnisfive> well, the language itself is actually an unrestricted grammar engine, so it can do things attrgrams cant do, ofcourse. but im considering making the parsing engine capable of handling attrgrams for the potential odd kinds of solutions it might permit
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08:21:40 * ski__ want to experiment with coupling AGs with LP
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08:23:57 <fizzie> Antigravity with linear prediction.
08:24:40 <ski__> why do you call it "AntiGravity" ?
08:29:40 <psygnisfive> its a working name, i think. ill rename it something more nice eventually
08:30:22 * ski__ called a language `contagion', once
08:30:52 <ski__> the only abstraction primitive was anonymous continuations
08:31:35 <fizzie> I don't know why, but I've seen AG used as an abbreaviation for antigravity. And linear prediction is a rather fundamental signal processing thing.
08:32:10 <ski__> oh .. i used `AG' as abbreviation of "Attribute Grammar"
08:32:18 <psygnisfive> AG is indeed a standard abbreviation for antigravity
08:32:32 <ski__> (maybe that was psygnisfive's point in calling it "AntiGravity", though)
08:32:51 <psygnisfive> no. the name preceded the potential use of attribute grammar qualities
08:33:20 <ski__> (never heard of `AG' as abbreviation of "Anti-Gravity")
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08:34:29 <fizzie> Linear prediction is just "predict next sample as a linear combination of p earlier samples"; you can use it for statistically modeling signals, and things like that.
08:39:10 <fizzie> Er, not really, there are no state transition probabilities involved anywhere.
08:43:49 <fizzie> But sure, in the sense that both could be used for somewhat similar things. Although when modeling a random process, linear prediction is usually called autoregressive modeling. LP is used a lot in things like compressing speech to very low bitrates. The GSM codecs are linear-predictive.
08:47:57 <psygnisfive> so fizzie what /other/ built ins should i have? :P
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09:04:48 <fizzie> Oh, antigravity was mentioned earlier too. I didn't bother to read the context.
09:05:12 <fizzie> I don't really know how linear prediction would be related to whatever-it-is-you-were-doing.
09:20:41 * ski__ just realizes fizzie might have interpreted `LP' as "Linear Prediction"
09:21:22 <fizzie> Yes, your "AGs with LP" is what made me say what I did.
09:22:00 <ski__> by `LP' i meant "Logic Programming"
09:24:16 <psygnisfive> AG does do some unification stuff, so you might be able to do some LP kind of stuff
09:25:29 <ski__> some AG systems statically stage tree traversal in several steps, to compute inherited and synthesized attributes
09:25:30 <psygnisfive> it wouldn't be elegant like prolog because you'd be building it on top of a non-logical system, and you could only prove truths, not discover truths, i think.
09:25:52 <ski__> i want to have a system that allows such static (maybe dynamic, too ..) staging of predicates
09:26:32 <psygnisfive> i didn't realize there were things related to AG that _i_ wasn't making. :P
09:30:49 <ski__> i believe that is a standard abbreviation, in relation to grammars, and programming languages
09:32:24 <psygnisfive> so cmon! what should i add to my language as a primitive.
09:32:55 <psygnisfive> and what do i need to consider for laziness/forced evaluation
09:33:14 <psygnisfive> it cant have continuations, really. or it might be able to but im not sure how.
09:33:21 <ski__> (you might note that i have no idea what you already have in your language)
09:34:29 <psygnisfive> a unrestricted tree rewriting engine with variables in the grammar's rules, and a unification system for pattern matching
09:35:17 <psygnisfive> thats really it. the core functionality is math rules, and a rule for substitution of an item in a tree
09:35:45 <ski__> could you give some contrived samples to exemplify what you mean ?
09:36:28 <ski__> how about giving a BNF, then ?
09:37:09 <psygnisfive> i mean, there are really only two things that define the language. maybe three.
09:37:55 <psygnisfive> and starting a symbol with a capital defines a syntactic variable
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09:38:20 <psygnisfive> well, you know what an unrestricted grammar is, right?
09:39:06 <ski__> i don't recall details .. but i imagine it's a couple or rules with no context-insensitive restriction ..
09:39:30 <psygnisfive> well, its basically just arbitrary rewrite rules
09:40:04 <psygnisfive> so that the kind of string you replace can look like anything
09:40:29 <ski__> so you replace trees instead of strings
09:40:39 <ski__> (i assume you have congruence)
09:41:22 <psygnisfive> the important part is, if you know what an unrestricted grammar is, just imagine the rules that can have variables in them
09:41:37 <ski__> if `blah' can be rewritten into `bleh', then any tree with `blah' inside it can be rewritten to the same tree with (some) occurance(s) of `blah' exchanged into `bleh'
09:41:57 <psygnisfive> e.g. abcX -> XXabc where X can be any symbol or tree part
09:43:15 * ski__ is btw irritated by the direction the `->' arrow in grammar rules point ..
09:43:35 <psygnisfive> in some sense, yes, it has congruence, but its not like a rule blah -> bleh will actually transform that tree, necessarily, because its lazy.
09:43:54 <ski__> (when i add support for grammars to my LP language, i'll have it point the other direction ..)
09:44:49 <ski__> in `aXbXc -> Xd', the `->' is really a kind of implication .. but it is `Xd' which implies `aXbXc', and not the other way around
09:45:20 <psygnisfive> -> is an arrow telling you what gets rewritten as what :P
09:45:38 <ski__> i'm pretty sure it can be interpreted as an implication in an ordered logic
09:46:16 <ski__> (which, imo, is what grammars is all about)
09:46:19 <psygnisfive> but thats not how rewriting systems are termed
09:47:34 <ski__> hm .. will you have confluence in your term-rewriting system ?
09:48:45 <ski__> basically that which rewriting rules you choose in which order doesn't matter for the "end result"
09:49:10 <ski__> there might be several possible rewriting rules you could use to rewrite a term
09:49:26 <ski__> say `A' can be rewritten into `B', but also into `C'
09:50:10 <ski__> then there should be a `D' such that both `B' and `C' will eventually be rewritten into `D'
09:50:30 <ski__> (there might be some details regarding termination which i forget here, but that's the gist of it)
09:51:15 <psygnisfive> oh yeah no it is ordered because of pattern matching and stuff
09:51:51 <psygnisfive> but thats amongst definitions of "the same function", so to speak
09:52:13 <ski__> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confluence_(term_rewriting)>
09:52:46 <ski__> foo (bar x (baz y z))
09:53:02 <ski__> you might rewrite according to `bar' or according to `baz' first
09:53:22 <ski__> confluence says that it doesn't matter which you actually do
09:54:18 <psygnisfive> yah, im not entirely sure if thats going to happen. i mean, because its pattern matching, you could have a pattern that looks inside another "function application"
09:54:48 <psygnisfive> but you could also have another pattern foo (bar x y) -> w
09:55:34 <ski__> i suppose another example of confluence is
09:56:19 <ski__> A + (B + C) --> (A + B) + C
09:57:09 <ski__> you could use either rule first
09:58:10 <psygnisfive> and i need some ideas for what primitive rules should exist
09:58:39 <psygnisfive> since its very purely functional, should i think about monad sorts of things, etc etc
09:58:52 <ski__> (iirc, there's five ways to go from `a + (b + (c + d))' to `((a + b) + c) + d' here .. that they are all equal is called the pentagonal law)
09:59:45 <ski__> maybe you could use some kind of unique state for I/O
09:59:51 <psygnisfive> private message me any ideas that you think would be important to include :p
10:00:05 <psygnisfive> well IO i can really just implement pretty naively
10:00:18 <ski__> well, i don't know what you want, so it's hard to say what's important for you
10:00:50 <psygnisfive> well i just mean whats important in a usable programming language in general.
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13:04:45 <ehird> where has ais gone
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13:33:59 <ehird> <oklopol> well do like ehird and just start coding in it... :D
13:34:00 <ehird> <oklopol> god i hate that dood sometimes
13:34:02 <ehird> <oklopol> (read: "envy")
13:35:55 <fizzie> [2008-04-10 04:33:07] < oklopol> ehird is a guy who lives here
13:36:54 <fizzie> There is also a nice definition for "atom" by oklopol in that log: "a retarded string, somewhat"
13:37:14 <ehird> oklotalk-- is pretty cool.
13:37:26 <ehird> it's very... orthogonal
13:38:37 <ehird> i have the oklotalk-- source UNLIKE ANYONE ELSE :DD
13:39:06 <ehird> i mean it even has tests.
13:39:24 <ehird> # Needs to be set quite high because the implementation has the massive
13:39:25 <ehird> # conceptual defect of not supporting tail recursion in a
13:39:26 <ehird> # language without any other type of iteration.
13:39:28 <ehird> sys.setrecursionlimit(3000)
13:39:56 <fizzie> Hang on to that source code, it'll surely be worth millions some day.
13:41:01 <ehird> # standard representation of oklotalk-- object, not implemented
13:41:02 <ehird> def obj_to_str(a,cxt,depth=0):
13:41:04 <ehird> return a.call([Atm('get')],"oo",cxt,depth=0).val
13:41:57 <ehird> # store all functions on stack, a function needs to evaluate (to a copy of itself)
13:41:58 <ehird> # if it is already on stack when called
13:42:08 <ehird> # Verbose may be helpful when debugging, but prolly not.
13:42:41 <ehird> # jsussiuuidfhsaudfh PRIVMSG #chan :::
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14:11:07 <ehird> <lament> (we actually talk about programming stuff once in a while as opposed to just talking about manga and social incompetence)
14:19:58 <ehird> Andreou, the founder of #esoteric, was last here 2008-08-31
15:07:54 <ehird> oklopol write my j for m
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15:12:39 <ehird> http://love2d.org/screenshot_data/seaotters.png
15:12:40 <oklopol> ehird: yeah what about that stack thing :D
15:12:49 <ehird> oklopol: wut stack thing
15:13:05 <oklopol> # store all functions on stack, a function needs to evaluate (to a copy of itself)
15:13:09 <oklopol> # if it is already on stack when called
15:13:15 <ehird> its from oklotalk--
15:13:20 <ehird> I don't know it XD
15:13:28 <ehird> omfg hackety redesigned
15:13:52 <oklopol> it makes sense, just not... in a conventional way
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15:14:45 <ehird> oklopol: also I totally thought of the best way to make oklotalk
15:14:56 <ehird> it's sort of like feather but not rly
15:15:19 <ehird> it'd let you literally add anything.
15:15:24 <ehird> even continuations, if it didn't have them.
15:16:06 <oklopol> wait did you actually say something
15:16:21 <ehird> lol, cunt in your asians
15:16:35 <ehird> also oklopol will you ever make oklotalk
15:17:03 <oklopol> well. i currently *do not code at all*. so nothing gets done really.
15:17:22 <oklopol> but i will probably be in a more productive state at some point again.
15:17:55 <ehird> i want to do dis in J:
15:17:58 <ehird> 14:23 <ehird> 21:07 <ehird> How would I get all length-two permutations? e.g., 1 2 3 -> 1 1, 1 2, 1 3, 2 1, 2 2, 2 3, 3 1, 3 2, 3 3?
15:17:59 <ehird> 14:23 <ehird> 21:07 <ehird> Specifically, giving each of those permutations as the left-argument of another application
15:18:06 <oklopol> probably after my fourth period, if you know what i mean
15:26:29 <oklopol> but they aren't permutations :P
15:26:54 <oklopol> they are elements of the cartesian exponentiation
15:27:57 <oklopol> of course that probably isn't a word, but it should be.
15:30:15 <ehird> oklopol: right but
15:30:25 <ehird> surely there's a way to get that shorter if you're just giving them each to another func
15:30:31 <ehird> I mean in APL it's liek one char, iirc
15:33:18 <ehird> 9:49:01 <ehird> alternatively, you could put the jewnicode into auschwitz09:49:12 <ehird> but then you'd be an nascii
15:35:29 <oklopol> ehird: maybe there is, i don't see it.
15:35:44 <ehird> when I have those permutations
15:35:48 <ehird> how do I give them to a funnnnnnnnnnction
15:36:11 <oklopol> hey, if you want to put them in a function, you can just do func/~ list :D
15:36:22 <ehird> it has to be the left argu
15:36:54 <ehird> that's not length 2 picks
15:37:12 <oklopol> yeah, do you know what / does as monadic
15:37:54 <ehird> so how does that help me feed all length-2 picks from a list as the left arg into another func
15:38:27 <oklopol> oh as the left arg. then prolly use what i gave you earlier
15:39:18 <ehird> ~ commutes or crosses connections to arguments: x u~ y ↔ y u x .
15:39:22 <ehird> ok that helps a bit
15:39:30 <ehird> now to figure out how to do x y z -> z y x
15:39:46 <ehird> you still haven't told me anythign I didn't know.
15:40:27 <oklopol> cartprodapplier =: ((,/@:(([,])"0/~))@[) funtoapply ]
15:40:42 <oklopol> i've answered your questions.
15:40:54 <oklopol> i don't claim to have done any more
15:40:55 <ehird> no you give me answers to qs I don't ask :|
15:41:18 <ehird> (((,/@:(([,])"0/~))@[) |. glider) )_1 0 1
15:41:42 <oklopol> yeah that makes no sense, no wonder it's an erro
15:42:32 <ehird> "duh, that makes no sense"
15:43:06 <oklopol> i told you to write (((,/@:(([,])"0/~))@[) |. glider) )_1 0 1?
15:44:07 <oklopol> cartprodapplier =: ((,/@:(([,])"0/~))@[) * ]
15:44:42 <ehird> plus, I can't exactly believe you that a 2-char thing in APL is that long in j,
15:44:43 <oklopol> multiply, by left argument
15:45:20 <oklopol> then maybe you should learn j and learn whether it is?
15:53:43 <oklopol> well i'd sing you a song if i was an australian woman, but, well.
15:53:50 <ehird> oklopol: write a muture interp.
15:54:05 <oklopol> i've already started doing one actually
15:54:16 <oklopol> but progress is infinitely slow
15:54:38 <ehird> well make it faster i wanna try it
15:55:05 <ehird> ;I,;mc,[]{"[]"},=}!!b->"+"+mC1"-"-mC1">"+C1"<"-C1{;X}Wh=mC0=}X??b
15:55:08 <ehird> I wonder how that works
15:55:50 <ehird> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.txt
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16:07:41 <ehird> <SimonRC> you will need a large black cock
16:07:49 <ehird> <SimonRC> s/cock/rooster/
16:11:27 <oklopol> ehird: clue is a language.
16:11:49 <oklopol> based on giving certain clues to the interp
16:12:08 <ehird> whut about the cise bf
16:12:11 <oklopol> it basically sets up a recursive procedure based on a bag of functions and examples
16:12:21 <ehird> I don't see any , or .
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16:12:26 <oklopol> ehird: i'd have to reverse-engineer it again, i don't remember how it works atm
16:12:32 <ehird> does it do , and .
16:12:38 <oklopol> ehird: it's probably just an ioless subset
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16:12:56 <oklopol> what's bf size in golfscript btw?
16:12:58 <ehird> how does cise work :P
16:13:23 <ehird> not on http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Brainfuck+FIXED
16:13:39 <ehird> http://www.golfscript.com/golfscript/examples.html
16:13:55 <ehird> also the sudoku solver is lolbig
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16:15:57 <oklopol> i was thinking about constraint programming stuff for cise
16:16:07 <oklopol> there's already a pretty clear framework where it'd fit
16:16:36 <oklopol> basically a function consists of actual program logic statements, and certain kinda pattern matching statements
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16:17:06 <oklopol> the pattern matching stuff can be used for certain constraint programming needs too
16:18:10 <oklopol> of course i haven't thought about the operators yet, but they are completely separate from the imperative stuff, so at least there won't be a charset size issue, unlike with imperative features, where ascii just isn't enough.
16:19:09 <ehird> output is sooo verbose
16:19:37 <ehird> j is written in java oklopol
16:19:54 <ehird> i know it is because I just opened the .jar with java
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16:48:58 <ehird> I wonder if you can have a lang with no partial functions without type checking
16:49:03 <ehird> liek, you basically need to stop _|_
16:49:08 <ehird> so all builtin functions must be total
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17:04:00 <ehird> lol, j actually has oop
17:04:14 <ehird> create =: 3 : 'items =: 0 $ 0'
17:04:15 <ehird> push =: 3 : '# items =: (< y) , items'
17:04:17 <ehird> top =: 3 : '> {. items'
17:04:19 <ehird> pop =: 3 : '# items =: }. items'
17:04:21 <ehird> destroy =: codestroy
17:21:59 * ehird plots language like J, but more golfy for less conventional things
17:23:11 <ehird> oklopol: I figured out how to get the last input in j
17:23:19 <ehird> ctrl-d brings up the log, enter puts it in the current line
17:23:23 <ehird> two lines up: ctrl-d up enter
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17:50:18 <ehird> you can't make circular data structs in j :(
18:01:05 <lament> what a useless language
18:01:10 <lament> all best things in life are circular
18:06:22 <Slereah> Example of balls : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers2/balls.gif
18:32:39 <ehird> can you make circular data structs in j
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18:36:03 <ehird> i wonder if I should make my variation lazy
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18:59:50 <impomatic> I've created a new page for Redcode on the Esoteric Languages Wiki, http://tr.im/dpty
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19:01:28 <lament> wow, the wiki didn't have a redcode page?
19:03:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:06:43 <impomatic> It was on the language list, but no page. I've added some basics to begin with
19:06:48 <lament> impomatic: you play corewars?
19:07:23 <impomatic> Yes, and also do some programming in redcode
19:07:31 <ehird> he said he's played corewars since 1993 IIRC
19:08:19 <lament> impomatic: is it fun? Has the state-of-the-art progressed since the 80s?
19:09:37 <impomatic> It's fun, but slow at the moment. There's a history at http://corewar.co.uk/history.htm which give brief details of what's happened each year
19:10:39 <impomatic> Basically, there's been a new standard, there's now various online tournaments with instantaneous results, and new techniques keep getting invented.
19:11:49 <impomatic> There are several irregular newsletters too, http://corewar.co.uk/journals.htm
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19:33:27 <Deewiant> impomatic: a new standard? When was that?
19:35:17 <Deewiant> I was hoping something had happened in, say, the past two years that I wasn't aware of
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20:00:05 <ehird> Prelude> iterateUntilStable (\(x,y) -> (x+y,y/2)) (1,0.5)
20:00:09 <ehird> Correct for all the wrong reasons.
20:16:06 <impomatic> Deewiant cw standards = 1986, 1988 and 1994
20:19:43 <Deewiant> impomatic: yep, I was hoping for something after 94 :-)
20:20:46 <impomatic> Although opcodes for character input / output have been added
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22:04:36 <AnMaster> also, fun hobbit joke in iwc today!
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22:16:34 <ehird> It's mathematically correct, but i only get that result because floating point is inaccurate.
22:16:43 <ehird> (Getting it properly would involve infinite computation.)
22:24:22 <impomatic> Has anyone got any really old corewar stuff? I'm building a big online archive
22:25:06 <impomatic> Unfortunately there's lots of stuff that used to be online, but has now disappeared.
22:25:29 <impomatic> The same seems to go for some other Esolang stuff :-(
22:26:30 <ehird> http://esoteric.sange.fi/
22:26:42 <ehird> people can give you access there
22:26:45 <ehird> and there might be stuff.
22:26:52 <oklopol> AnMaster: the duckling thing?
22:26:56 <Deewiant> impomatic: I might, somewhere, but I think it's all from corewar.co.uk anyway
22:27:05 <ehird> Deewiant: isn't that impomatic's site? :P
22:27:19 <ehird> oklopol: it's the SHC.
22:27:21 <ehird> small duckling collider.
22:27:21 <impomatic> Deewiant, I should have all of the corewar.co.uk stuff! :-)
22:27:23 <oklopol> well. it's like "oh my god would that work"
22:27:29 <Deewiant> but in any case, my point was that it's on the 'Net anyway
22:27:50 <AnMaster> <ehird> <oklopol> huh? <-- can't find that in scrollback, about when is it from?
22:27:58 <ehird> <AnMaster> <ehird> <oklopol> huh?
22:28:01 <ehird> whee quote towerrrrrrrrrrr
22:28:11 <ehird> <ehird> <AnMaster> <ehird> <oklopol> huh?
22:28:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> oklopol: it's the SHC. <-- fun!
22:28:46 <ehird> the xkcd comic is incorrect
22:28:55 <ehird> they would look for their mother, thus randomly swirl
22:29:00 <ehird> then colliding into a central singularity
22:29:09 <ehird> since they don't want to stray too far from each other
22:29:18 <ehird> then, the higgs boson...
22:29:21 <ehird> ...wait, nevermind
22:29:45 <Slereah> Are we discussing SCIENCE?
22:29:56 <ehird> Slereah: We're discussing making ducks hit together.
22:29:59 <ehird> Also known as science.
22:30:03 <oklopol> ehird: all joking aside, what if they were circling some kinda circular circularity? that is, if they could only see the duckling before them
22:30:25 <ehird> oklopol: well, the front one wouldn't go to the last one
22:30:25 <oklopol> higgs boson probably wouldn't appear, because the circle couldn't get smaller
22:30:27 <ehird> it'd try to find its mother
22:30:34 <impomatic> The Minus webpages have disappeared, hopefully I'll find them in the archive
22:30:38 <ehird> so it'd swirl around and probably turn back
22:30:41 <ehird> causing everything to collide.
22:30:49 <impomatic> There was something else too which I noticed had gone. Not ever in the internet archive :-(
22:30:51 <oklopol> how would it know someone didn't just overtake it?
22:30:58 <oklopol> i mean, they're retarded animals.
22:31:11 <oklopol> and even if it would realize something happened
22:31:25 <AnMaster> does it have exception handling?
22:31:41 <ehird> oklopol: if they get confused, they're also likely to hit themselves together
22:32:10 <oklopol> that's just a technicality, what if you just managed to start the loop some other way, say with simultaneously removing blindfolds and having them circulating using somekinda machinery already, so they'd think they were already following the next duckling
22:32:33 <ehird> im talking about what the comic did
22:32:34 <oklopol> ^ continuation to what i said last, not what you said
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22:33:07 <AnMaster> oklopol, blindfolds? Think that would work?
22:33:26 <AnMaster> only if each can't see the colour of it's own blindfold!
22:33:35 <oklopol> my point is something would, given a lab environment.
22:33:57 <ehird> oklopol: what if you just bashed them together with your hands
22:34:00 <ehird> then they would bash them together
22:34:04 <ehird> see, fuck hypotheticals
22:34:07 <ehird> i'm talking about the comic's situation
22:34:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, what about making a fake duck "backend" and mount it on one of the ducklings?
22:34:40 <oklopol> well, i care about the loop, not how it's started; i'm not sure what bashing has to do with that
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22:34:58 <oklopol> except i guess it's very hypothetical, therefore similar to my point of view.
22:35:54 <oklopol> AnMaster: indeed, removing a *duckling* from the cycle probably won't confuse the first one, it'd just go for the next on in the queue
22:36:15 <oklopol> i mean, assuming you want the loop to be autonomous at some point
22:36:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think dmm should really stop with this bad hob^Whabbit of his.
22:36:30 <oklopol> i don't really know what ducklings do if one of them happens to, say, die
22:36:41 <oklopol> m assuming they don't care
22:37:05 <AnMaster> or wait, was that elephant graveyards?
22:37:17 <oerjan> wait, today was hobbit pun day?
22:37:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: you started it
22:38:06 <AnMaster> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/
22:38:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't believe you
22:38:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, fun fact: I don't believe me either about that
22:39:34 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
22:39:41 <AnMaster> since not believing myself is a paradox
22:39:59 <AnMaster> basically if I don't believe myself I can't believe that I don't believe myself either
22:40:13 <oerjan> i see you haven't heard about the concept of "lies"
22:40:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, I have heard about it, but I haven't understood it
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22:42:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw I have to ask you a thing, have you heard the name "Joseph Martin Kraus" before?
22:42:40 <oerjan> a very weak bell may be ringing
22:42:53 <AnMaster> oh well, not internationally known I guess. Famous Swedish composer. 1756-1792
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22:45:04 <oerjan> famous swedish composers only really rings one bell with me. although it's a big bell, man.
22:46:25 <impomatic> Anyone heard of TWINC, TWo INstruction Computer? :-)
22:46:43 <oerjan> AnMaster: your pun detector needs a good polishing
22:47:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, even after you said there was a pun I'm unable to detect it
22:47:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about Johan Helmich Roman then?
22:48:03 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Helmich_Roman
22:48:20 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Martin_Kraus
22:52:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you get http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/ today?
22:53:14 <oerjan> i've just logged on, don't expect me to have read any webcomics
22:53:46 <oerjan> well there was some steganography discussed in the forums, this may be the result of that
22:54:04 <oklopol> oerjan: famous swedish composers only really rings one bell with me. although it's a big bell, man. <<< awesome
22:54:12 <AnMaster> diffimg 0034.png ga980112.gif > diff.png
22:54:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed great when I found it
22:54:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, if it had been audio communication it would have been obvious
22:55:17 <GregorR> AnMaster: I wrote a diffvideo script once :P
22:55:55 <oklopol> i don't get the garfield thing even though i know what steganography is.
22:56:34 <GregorR> Never published it, one sec I can throw it somewhere.
22:56:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, just download the original (linked at the bottom) and square root one
22:56:55 <AnMaster> oklopol, using diffimg or such
22:57:01 <GregorR> Although it's a total of 118 lines :P
22:57:32 <GregorR> Incidentally, I don't actually have any idea what diffimg is, I assume it just produces an image that is the pixel-per-pixel difference of two images?
22:57:50 <GregorR> (Like R2 - R1, G2 - G1, B2 - B1)
22:57:54 <oklopol> AnMaster: no need, i can read that without diffinh.
22:59:38 <GregorR> AnMaster: http://pastebin.ca/1323168 and http://pastebin.ca/1323170
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22:59:58 <oklopol> the strip behind garfield.
23:00:05 <AnMaster> <GregorR> Incidentally, I don't actually have any idea what diffimg is, I assume it just produces an image that is the pixel-per-pixel difference of two images? <-- no, it produces a black and white image, black for differences
23:00:19 <GregorR> Oh, well that's even simpler than what I wrote :P
23:00:37 <GregorR> (Even ignoring the image-vs-video thing)
23:00:52 <oklopol> in both it's much more work opening the pic files than the actual computation
23:01:19 <oklopol> just map a==b over the zip of the arrays
23:01:28 <oklopol> in C yes, in real languages fuck yeah.
23:01:34 <ehird> wonder if J has zip
23:01:41 <ehird> on N-dimensional arrays, ofc.
23:01:43 <oklopol> in surreal languages maybe not.
23:01:58 <GregorR> I made mine to get an idea of how much different video compression algorithms eff up the video :P
23:02:19 <oklopol> ehird: 1 2 3 + 5 6 7 = 1+5 2+6 3+7 is what i meant
23:02:40 <oklopol> , has infinite rank, it won't zip evah
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23:02:56 <ehird> of course, this works great if just about everything is a number subtype.
23:03:07 <ehird> just mark them as 0xFFFFFF or w/e, ofc.
23:03:12 <oklopol> 1 2 3 (,"0) 4 5 6 <<< but you can change rank manually
23:03:14 <ehird> since, y'know, then the program is just
23:03:22 <AnMaster> ehird, as far as computer cares, everything *IS* numbers
23:03:25 <ehird> dump image (load image 1 = load image 2)
23:03:35 <ehird> AnMaster: umm yeah except that's totally irrelevant
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23:04:09 <oklopol> yeah the whole diff program is indeed =
23:04:39 <ehird> in fact, if stringifying an image gives a reasonable format of some kind you can omit the dump image
23:06:15 <oerjan> now could someone please explain today's Lightning Made of Owls to me...
23:07:07 <ehird> it's funny and i don't get it
23:07:38 <oerjan> maybe it's just meant to be absurd
23:08:28 <oklopol> or maybe there aren't save rolls if you're wielding a double-handed weapon
23:08:52 <oerjan> impomatic: everything is on topic here except esolangs. the # is logical negation.
23:09:38 <ehird> Here is not #esolang.
23:09:41 <ehird> Here is #esoteric.
23:09:44 <ehird> But yes, you are here.
23:10:06 <oklopol> indeed, this is where we are not esoteric
23:10:13 <oklopol> plain old ppl talking about things
23:10:23 <oklopol> oerjan: did you agree with my joke explanation
23:10:36 <oklopol> i mean it's funny in a conventional sense that way.
23:11:17 <oerjan> oklopol: when you said you could read the strip behind garfield without diffing, you were lying, right?
23:11:39 <impomatic> While we're talking comics, http://corewar.co.uk/cwcomics.txt
23:12:17 <oklopol> oerjan: if you're not satisfied with me just being superior to humans, i guess i could mention i have a laptop.
23:14:06 <oklopol> so, impomatic, i hate you; and now let me elaborate on that, it's less insulting than you think.
23:14:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, I have a TFT with really really wide viewing angle
23:14:44 <oklopol> basically you've gotten me to desperately want to try both corewars and code golfing.
23:15:20 <oklopol> which will take a lot of my time, if i succumb
23:15:34 <impomatic> I think they're both going to be around a while, no hurry
23:16:04 <impomatic> If they'd add redcode to code golfing, you could kill two birds with one stone
23:16:12 * oerjan has a laptop too although his first attempt to read at an angle failed. will try again.
23:16:18 <ehird> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Text+Compression/flagitious%28sym%29/1190091541&rb
23:18:32 <oerjan> a laptop which ironically never leaves the table
23:18:54 <oklopol> mine almost never leaves the house, but it's always in my lap
23:19:26 <oklopol> then again i sit on my bed 24/7, a bit hard to use a table.
23:19:34 <oerjan> does that imply you almost never leave the house?
23:19:47 * oerjan had a bit different impression
23:20:03 <oklopol> i only leave the house for uni stuff really
23:21:17 <oklopol> but yeah i guess i meant it never leaves my lap when i use it
23:21:34 <oklopol> well okay that's not true either.
23:21:56 <oklopol> i usually put it down when i'm doing my stuffs.
23:22:07 <oklopol> which i should start doing right now btw.
23:22:31 <oklopol> if i don't prove these structures to be abel groups, no one will.
23:23:59 <oklopol> yeah i guess that's the term
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