00:00:38 <oerjan> <ehird> AnMaster: But like I said, Mathematica has *3,000* mainspace builtins.
00:00:52 <ehird> but the builtins don't use it.
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00:01:10 <oklopol> all the cool guys just use a massive global namespace.....
00:01:24 <Slereah2> Do you want to see my massive global namespace?
00:01:37 <oklopol> you bet i know what you mean to see
00:01:47 <oerjan> Slereah2: say no more say no more
00:01:50 <ehird> can you all just have sex already or something so you can stop being suggestive all the time
00:02:10 <oerjan> ehird: i don't think that would help, do you?
00:02:19 <oklopol> did you notice the 8-7-6-5
00:02:20 <ehird> oerjan: maybe not but they could make a video ;-)
00:02:39 <oklopol> slerry is 8, i'm 7, oerjan is 6, ehird is 5
00:03:49 <oklopol> and here i was thinking maybe it was a bit underestimatory to actually explain that to you, i mean, umm, how could you not spot a 8765 when you see one.
00:04:11 <oklopol> i mean it's pretty much the coolest sequence you've seen.
00:04:26 <oerjan> oklopol: it's not every client that makes that easily visible you know
00:04:41 <oerjan> also not everyone has superhuman eyes like you
00:04:57 <oklopol> oerjan: maybe you should learn lisp, you know, see beyond syntax and shit.
00:05:11 <oklopol> my eyes are actually hurting like hell atm.
00:05:20 <oklopol> probably from all the divinely magnificent usage.
00:05:55 <oerjan> oklopol: just be careful that your laser vision doesn't turn on accidentally when you are tired. it's hell on monitors.
00:06:43 <oerjan> <- always the one with the useful advice
00:08:00 <oklopol> maybe i should take a few week hiatos
00:08:05 <oerjan> oklopol: you cannot interrupt sentences like that without saying candlejack fi
00:09:22 <oklopol> i mean i have a lot of stuff i know exactly how to do, just would have to actually do it, like say graverse
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00:10:23 <ehird> man oklopol you should try mathematica
00:10:26 <psygnisf_> olsner: i dont know how to use them until i understand them :p
00:10:27 <ehird> you can PLAY the reimann zeta function
00:10:34 <psygnisf_> ive never even seen real examples. meh.
00:10:38 <ehird> Play[RiemannSiegelZ[1000 t], {t, 0, 1}]
00:10:40 <ehird> man it sounds awesome.
00:11:59 <oklopol> but i can't really, you know, be excited
00:12:09 <oklopol> i'm so damn high on tiredness.
00:12:24 <olsner> psygnisf_: of course you won't, but that doesn't mean you can't use them
00:12:28 <oklopol> so, umm, i think i'm gonna sleep now ->
00:13:10 <psygnisf_> i need to actually SEE something be used to understand it.
00:13:25 <psygnisf_> once i see it, its trivial. but i need to see it used.
00:14:26 <olsner> just read arbitrary haskell programs, find instances of 'do', >>=, >> and return, find out what each instance does
00:14:51 <ehird> Play[RiemannSiegelZ[1000 If[t < 5, t, 10 - t]], {t, 0, 10}]
00:15:02 <psygnisf_> i need to see the actual process that occurs when they're used
00:15:19 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a rimshot.
00:15:48 <oerjan> psygnisf_: and the problem is, the process is different for each monad...
00:15:50 <olsner> *oh*, might be difficult since that process is inside the brain of another haskell coder...
00:16:05 <ehird> WHY IS MATHEMATICA SO SLOW
00:16:12 <psygnisf_> oerjan: im sure its different, overall, but theres got to be something i can get out of seeing it used.
00:16:47 <ehird> A good PlayRange could not be found since most of the samples are not \
00:16:47 <ehird> evaluating to machine-size real numbers.
00:17:12 <psygnisf_> honestly tho, i dont need if i need to use monads.
00:17:59 <AnMaster> "A rimshot is the sound produced by hitting the rim and the head of a drum at once, with a drum stick. Rimshots are usually played to produce a more accented note, and are typically played loudly. However, soft rim shots are possible."
00:18:00 <oerjan> psygnisf_: you considered passing a world state? iirc that's what clean and mercury do, as well as ghc internally
00:18:16 <oerjan> the problem is to make sure old world states are not reused
00:18:24 <ehird> it's used by bad comedians.
00:18:46 <ehird> the bad-dum-tish sound
00:18:46 <psygnisf_> what i mean is more that like.. the only stuff i might need a monad for is IO, i think
00:19:24 <psygnisf_> and for that i could just have some built in thing that evaluates IO in an appropriate fashion
00:19:47 <ehird> psygnisf_: http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:qlfzNPE8WqgJ:mauke.ath.cx/stuff/haskell/how-to-io.html+%22how+to+io%22+mauke&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=de&client=firefox-a
00:19:50 <ehird> that explains how the IO monad works
00:20:00 <oerjan> psygnisf_: there is also the control streams used by the first haskell versions
00:20:39 <ehird> psygnisf_: just read it
00:20:40 <oerjan> the whole program takes a stream as argument and returns a stream
00:20:42 <ehird> oerjan: ssh you :P
00:21:11 <oerjan> but it's not a stream of characters, but of control commands
00:22:06 <oerjan> iirc that was hell, so they embedded that in a continuation framework
00:22:19 <oerjan> you could use continuations too
00:22:32 <oerjan> they're a bit like monads light
00:22:56 <psygnisf_> i dont even know if continuations are possible :D
00:23:12 <oerjan> is your language functional?
00:23:41 <oerjan> if it doesn't have first class functions then continuations will be hard, as will monads i think
00:23:57 <psygnisf_> it doesnt have _anything_ other than rewriting.
00:24:27 <psygnisf_> it might be possible to make rewrite rules first class. but theres no such thing as a function in this system
00:26:28 <oerjan> oh well then i assume you would have IO rewrite rules with a side effect
00:27:22 <oerjan> that's not necessarily a problem
00:27:30 <psygnisf_> it is lazy. and there are no real sideeffects other then that some tree evaluates down to some terminal
00:27:42 <psygnisf_> or possible evaluates down to a terminal.
00:37:29 <psygnisf_> the way im doing it right now, is that when outputting it forces applicative order evaluation
00:40:40 <oerjan> <psygnisf_> in a sense, bind is a flat-map
00:40:53 <oerjan> Scala calls it that, more or less
00:42:47 <oerjan> as in, the objects supporting the flatmap method are those that can use its for comprehension syntax iirc, and comprehension is equivalent to haskell's do notation
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01:16:34 <psygnisf_> so what else should i include as a primitive in my language, do you think?
01:21:23 <psygnisf_> im having massive problems preview songs from itunes :(
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11:32:17 <impomatic> Why are <> and [] reserved in Underload?
11:33:30 <oklopol> maybe because ais523 wanted to have the possibility to extend it?
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11:38:06 <oerjan> well neither implements that parts afair
11:52:31 <oerjan> as far as i make up completely on the spot
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13:54:42 <ehird> <impomatic> Why are <> and [] reserved in Underload?
13:54:45 <ehird> in practice, they're not
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14:17:31 <ehird> "MathML, a proprietary HTML-extension"
14:17:51 <ehird> That darn W3C and its proprietary HTML extensions!
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14:46:38 <ehird> <fizzie2> At least here ~ is a dead key too. All three of ^, ~ and ¨ are in a single completely corpse-like key.
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17:18:37 <ehird> oklopol: what lang were you talking about yesterday?
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17:26:38 <oklopol> it's my graph/tree language with j-inspired syntax
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17:28:16 <oklopol> the basic idea is graphs are a primitive datatype containing values in nodes (they can be boxed so you can put graphs in there too), and different kinds of searches and rewriting operations are primitive one-char functions
17:30:20 <oklopol> some technicalities are lambdas can have these short "tags", like <a b>k{a+b} would be a lambda with tag "k" that sums two things together, and the idea is higher-order functions (traversals and all that) use these as kinda type tags; and you can fold graphs and shit
17:30:45 <ehird> having functions and stuff is no fun
17:30:48 <ehird> you should make them just graphs
17:30:49 <oklopol> so programs are often just <lambda-with-some-tag>+ <graph-operation> <graph>
17:30:55 <oklopol> and the tags tell what the lambdas mean
17:31:02 <ehird> computation is done by inputting a graph that is isomorphic to another graph in a tc way
17:31:07 <ehird> and it prints out the isomorphee.
17:31:10 <ehird> that would be crazily pretty.
17:31:24 <oklopol> sure. but that's graphica's territory.
17:31:36 <ehird> graphica has non-graphs too, no?
17:32:01 <oklopol> but they are essentially just boxed graphs.
17:32:28 <ehird> oklopol: just let nodes be graphs, not strings
17:32:32 <ehird> and have a () graph
17:32:34 <ehird> then build numbers like
17:32:42 <oklopol> nope. boxing is actually a beautiful concept
17:32:56 <ehird> yeah, but _just_ having graphs, and the singleton ()
17:33:37 <oklopol> sure you can make it more explicit than graphica does, but that's eodermdrome's or something's territory, not graphicas.
17:34:41 <ehird> a whole language where you just have graphs and () would be pretty.
17:34:53 <ehird> and graphs isomorph (yes, that's a verb.) to others in a TC way
17:35:00 <ehird> also, input format is ascii art.
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18:03:37 <X-Scale> oklopol: I was reading about your graph language and imagining each vertex could countain a function and that its parameters and outputs would flow in and out of it edges. Like a living neural network.
18:07:12 <oklopol> X-Scale: you should be able to do something like that easily, yes
18:07:44 <oklopol> i could make that one of my test cases; i have a list of stuff i want to be solvable trivially with it
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19:39:11 <Slereah2> #xkcd isn't on freenode anymore?
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20:47:32 <Corun> Yes. I use X-Chat Aqua.
20:49:24 <psygnisf_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBpetDxIEMU&feature=channel
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21:09:01 <unrelatedguy> i didn't do anything, it was nowhere near free
21:10:49 <unrelatedguy> shit shit everything's breaking becaues there's no free space
21:14:01 <unrelatedguy> i'm writing an awful lot of data to disk per second
21:14:22 <unrelatedguy> i didn't, I think some application is filling it by mistake
21:16:13 <unrelatedguy> i set off a rather pointless, intensive computation before brbing
21:16:43 <oklopol> i recently filled a 300er, and managed to break it right after.
21:17:30 <alex89ru> ;D last time I filled a HD, it was a40gb HD with 2 operating systems on it^^
21:17:55 <unrelatedguy> anyone have a good way to search for disk-intensive folders on an HD?
21:18:36 <oklopol> been wanting something like that forever
21:21:35 <ehird> Methinks my problem be in there.
21:24:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: or, y'know, % du -h . >foobarbazquux
21:24:23 <ehird> bet I run out of disk space running du
21:24:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'll just use awk or sth
21:27:23 <ehird> think that's enough for now, mmmhm
21:30:19 <Ilari> And running out of disk space tends to really screw a filesystem...
21:31:32 <Ilari> (fragmentation-wise) and since one doesn't have a defragger... Ouch... :-/
21:32:33 <ehird> Well, I had 1GB free at the worst.
21:32:38 <ehird> But I don't know how much of that was -actually- usable.
21:32:43 <ehird> Filesystems are weird.
21:34:18 <ehird> oh, the based on venti one?
21:34:22 <ehird> I don't recall anything past, based on venti.
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21:41:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so it's... venti
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22:00:53 <psygnisf_> hm. i dont know how transmission does it, but i know azureus will create empty files that, as far as your file system is concerned, are many gigs in size
22:01:11 <psygnisf_> so it reserves the total space for a download before its all done, so that it CAN all be done
22:01:15 <ehird> no torrent downloads save for mathematica recently
22:04:25 <psygnisf_> but transmission isnt free and this pains me
22:08:53 <ehird> transmission is free
22:09:13 <ehird> but transmission is
22:09:25 <ehird> http://www.transmissionbt.com/
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22:14:36 <GregorR> At 4AM I threw up substantially more than I'd eaten (by magic), then I drank a glass of water, then in two hours I threw up that. Water. Just water and stomach acid. It was really unpleasant.
22:15:44 <yoR> Yeah, its a cool thing, your body actually manages to produce more and more acid, just for you to throw up
22:16:34 <GregorR> When it's that thin it comes out your nose as well as your mouth.
22:16:38 <yoR> The wonderfull masochistic stomach...
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22:30:46 <oklopol> GregorR: sounds like fun, yes
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23:11:26 <Metcalf> I'm looking for Keymaker's programs in Underload, does anyone know the new URL?
23:11:44 <Metcalf> Used to be at http://koti.mbnet.fi/~yiap/programs/underload/ - not archived by Wayback :-/
23:12:19 <ehird> Metcalf: http://yiap.nfshost.com/
23:12:28 <ehird> http://yiap.nfshost.com/esoteric.php?f=underload
23:13:38 <ehird> oklopol: i have an idea for a way to make nopol just use < and >.
23:16:10 <ehird> oklopol: basically
23:16:12 <ehird> <: <. <::> <. <:> <::>>> <.:.:.>>
23:16:14 <ehird> < <> < >< < <> <>> < >< < <>> < <> <>>>> < >< <> >< <> >< >>
23:16:21 <ehird> if you want one of those actually
23:16:26 <ehird> evaluate an expr that evaluates to one of em.
23:16:30 <ehird> but srsly. it's pretttttyyyyyy
23:17:33 <ehird> oklopol: oklotalk should just use two characters
23:17:49 <ehird> @.@....@@@.@.@.@.@
23:18:29 <ehird> a J alike that automatically determines func implementation from the symbol you use.
23:18:38 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:18:45 <Metcalf> I don't think it's possible to conditionally execute code in Underload
23:18:56 <ehird> It is possible to do that, just hard.
23:19:01 <oklopol> Metcalf: it's possible, and it's pretty easy.
23:19:06 <ehird> okay,i t's probably easy
23:19:10 <ehird> I was just erring on the side of caution
23:19:20 <ehird> Metcalf: e.g. 99 bottles of beer
23:19:32 <ehird> (:::::::):(:((^:()~((:)*~^)a~*^!!()~^))~*()~^^)~(^a(*~^)*a~*()~^!()~^)a~**^!!^S
23:19:37 <oklopol> there's no direct, intuitively clear way to do it.
23:19:38 <ehird> stops when factorial calculated
23:19:56 <AnMaster> ehird, where is "bottles of beer" in that?
23:20:08 <ehird> 23:19 <ehird> (:::::::):(:((^:()~((:)*~^)a~*^!!()~^))~*()~^^)~(^a(*~^)*a~*()~^!()~^)a~**^!!^S
23:20:09 <ehird> 23:19 <ehird> stops when factorial calculated
23:20:48 <Metcalf> What about if I wanted to loop from 99 down to 1, but do something special when it got to 50.
23:21:15 <oklopol> on every step check if 50 and do something different if it is?
23:21:59 <Metcalf> I just can't see how to check if it is 50, or how to skip some code if it is
23:22:17 <oklopol> you could subtract 50 and check if zero
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23:24:44 <oklopol> decrement, check if either if zero and if is, return the nonzero one.
23:25:17 <ehird> Metcalf: basically
23:25:20 <ehird> you want your code in ()s
23:25:24 <ehird> and you should : it before ^ing it
23:25:26 <ehird> so that you have a copy
23:25:36 <ehird> it's quite rewrite-language-esque
23:25:45 <ehird> you basically quine it
23:26:13 <oklopol> Metcalf: yeah what ehird said it's basically just lambda calculus with a stack, trivial.
23:26:45 <oklopol> Metcalf: but are you gonna continue, i kinda like programming underload in english :P
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23:38:05 <ehird> <fizzie> My first association to "carrier pigeons could be faster" was "unholy scramjet-equipped cyborg-pigeons, an abomination against nature" and not "normal pigeons carrying flash drives".
23:38:10 <ehird> I think this is so funny because of the comma before an
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