< 1234051373 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to bed < 1234051609 0 :GreaseMonkey!n=gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1234053926 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's ihope's new nick? < 1234053953 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ihopes_new_nick: so where's your onoz interpreter? < 1234055446 0 :ab5tract!n=ab5tract@pool-98-111-165-233.phlapa.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1234055547 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo < 1234055611 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"godnatt!" < 1234056581 0 :Slereah!n=fff@ANantes-259-1-127-55.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1234056607 0 :Slereah2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1234056658 0 :unlambda!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1234057307 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtGlQHAEwVo < 1234057549 0 :kwufo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1234057623 0 :kwufo!n=regular@100.177.broadband10.iol.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1234058161 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's sad that I'm feeling good because I made this software fail in the same way on multiple platforms X_X < 1234058172 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: ? < 1234058209 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :````sii``sii < 1234058227 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: did you want to compliment me on my prophetic ability? < 1234058278 0 :kwufo1!n=regular@100.177.broadband10.iol.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1234058664 0 :ab5tract!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1234058712 0 :kwufo1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1234059420 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1234059701 0 :kwufo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1234060082 0 :kwufo!n=regular@100.177.broadband10.iol.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1234061949 0 :jix_!n=jix@dyndsl-095-033-066-003.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1234062184 0 :kwufo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1234062395 0 :whoppix!n=whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0186.bb.online.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1234062736 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1234063604 0 :kwufo!n=regular@100.177.broadband10.iol.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1234064652 0 :kwufo1!n=regular@100.177.broadband10.iol.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1234065528 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reddit programming (3 clicks -->) ihope < 1234065548 0 :kwufo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1234065577 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you were answering bsmntbombdood's question. < 1234065594 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me find out what onoz is. < 1234065638 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: write one. ehird would tell you that it's easy. < 1234065653 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Disclaimer: I don't actually know enough about ehird to truly make that statement.) < 1234065702 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed... < 1234065715 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reddit --> banana scheme --> brainhype --> onoz (ihope) < 1234065722 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the unimplemented category :( < 1234065742 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :onoz != me. < 1234065765 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So my Reddit number is more like 4. < 1234065783 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inded, onoz --> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Ihope127 < 1234065786 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Ihope127 = me. < 1234065790 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1234065797 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 clicks to see the name ihope < 1234065804 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yesterday there was bf joust < 1234065810 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's with Agorans on reddit? < 1234065820 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are Agorans on reddit? < 1234065824 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than you? < 1234065857 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/(?=on)/linked to / < 1234065886 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :banana scheme was on reddit? < 1234065888 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm. < 1234065903 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I have to go. See y'allz. < 1234065905 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's on /r/programming at the moment < 1234065917 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does RProgrammer have anything to do with that? < 1234065919 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd upvote it, but I don't have an account :p < 1234065932 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, it's indeed on reddit < 1234065956 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION dances? < 1234066239 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really belongs on http://www.reddit.com/r/Marijuana/ < 1234066708 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I lied. < 1234066723 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Retroactively. It was not a lie when I told it, but it is now.) < 1234066738 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have returned so that I may confess a sin in ##sl4. < 1234068032 0 :kwufo1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1234069998 0 :icefox!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1234071990 0 :icefox!n=icefox@c-71-192-50-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1234079450 0 :upyr[emacs]!n=emacs@79.174.35.21 JOIN :#esoteric < 1234079999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1234080000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1234080812 0 :SpaceManPlusPlus!n=spaceman@S01060015e96842d7.vs.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1234080832 0 :SpaceManPlusPlus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1234080899 0 :kwufo!n=regular@100.177.broadband10.iol.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1234085685 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Client Excited" < 1234087862 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-49-151.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1234087992 0 :oklofyug!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: you have pretty fingers < 1234088022 0 :oklofyug!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always figured your skin was full of boils < 1234088032 0 :oklofyug!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i mean nice vid < 1234088315 0 :oklofyug!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION writes his first youtube comment < 1234088378 0 :oklofyug!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darrr you go. < 1234088391 0 :oklofyug!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :okloflaeg < 1234088394 0 :okloflaeg!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1234088394 0 :okloflaeg!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1234088399 0 :okloflaeg!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :showah < 1234088400 0 :okloflaeg!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1234088448 0 :ktne!n=ktne@unaffiliated/ktne JOIN :#esoteric < 1234088451 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1234088873 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1234089228 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-49-151.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1234089742 0 :okloflaeg!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1234090073 0 :Slereah2!n=fff@ANantes-259-1-70-231.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1234090290 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1234090714 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1234090817 0 :ktne!n=ktne@unaffiliated/ktne JOIN :#esoteric < 1234090826 0 :upyr[emacs]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my first `program` brainfuck http://pastebin.com/m469e5a92 < 1234090844 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1234091389 0 :okloflaeg!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello world? < 1234091597 0 :upyr[emacs]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. input 2 chars and print < 1234091704 0 :upyr[emacs]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want do summator for two numbers, but begin i do it ^ < 1234091824 0 :okloflaeg!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just read until the second . < 1234092026 0 :upyr[emacs]!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1234092520 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@HSI-KBW-085-216-041-121.hsi.kabelbw.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1234093498 0 :okloflaeg!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>----< <--> <<< which one is longer? (you'll be so surprised!) < 1234093576 0 :Slereah2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The longest is < 1234093600 0 :okloflaeg!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would know ;;;) < 1234093604 0 :okloflaeg!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wait < 1234093610 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1234094857 0 :kwufo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1234095519 0 :Hiato!n=1@dsl-245-35-203.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1234096086 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1234097347 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@HSI-KBW-085-216-041-121.hsi.kabelbw.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1234097515 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=arvid@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1234097924 0 :Slereah!n=fff@ANantes-259-1-138-18.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1234098649 0 :Slereah2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1234099328 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1234101000 0 :Hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1234102197 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1234102542 0 :Hiato!n=1@dsl-245-35-203.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1234102933 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1234103068 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"restaring!" < 1234103270 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=arvid@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1234103440 0 :ais523!i=93bcf446@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d2c30812f4298ba9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1234105041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I have returned so that I may confess a sin in ##sl4. < 1234105042 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wta < 1234105043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*wat < 1234105052 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1234105062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is ##sl4 about, anyway? < 1234105072 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you are aware that "wat" is technically speaking a spelling error? < 1234105094 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ##sl4 is the IRC channel for sl4.org, a mailing list about the technological Singularity < 1234105098 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, yes. < 1234105306 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, I'm rather wondering what the heck ##sl4 has to do with sins < 1234105476 0 :okloflaeg!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SINgularity < 1234105480 0 :okloflaeg!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklopol < 1234105486 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glad i could help < 1234105495 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :groan < 1234105509 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you groaning at me, or with me? < 1234105510 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope the singularity doesn't make us all too intellectual for terrible puns. < 1234105514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan and oklopol would go out of business. < 1234105536 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ihope, the singularity < 1234105537 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1234105540 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was even stupider < 1234105576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should probably go bite my cell phone < 1234105579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't put it past ihope to be a rapidly self-improving strong AI. < 1234105598 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if someone here is, it's him < 1234105625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: or fungot < 1234105626 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i really feel like going fast and such. i suggested a holy grail of web applications, and expressions that manipulate them or store to/ load from memory. < 1234105634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i really feel like going fast and such." < 1234105638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's talking about his self-improvement < 1234105641 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be afraid < 1234105642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be very afraid < 1234105665 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@e-126.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1234105670 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1234105671 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp < 1234105736 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the future: < 1234105738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp allofsentience < 1234105738 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: riastradh, i don't think so... < 1234106124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately for the singularity, we still haven't asked AC how to reverse entropy. < 1234106129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe AC is the singularity. < 1234106298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ask *every* computer how to reverse entropy. < 1234106308 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: how's that going for you < 1234106309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You never know when it'll come up. ;) < 1234106350 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: So far, I've gotten answers ranging from "syntax error" to "Insufficient information." < 1234106379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wire your brain up to a serial cable and ask it. < 1234106486 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry; I'm waiting for ethernet jacks. < 1234106762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet google is the singularity. < 1234106775 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As soon as they try and make it improve its indexing algorithm through the pages it indexes. < 1234107311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://twitter.com/OHHDL < 1234107313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL WAT < 1234107785 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His Holiness the Dalai Lama had been experiencing some mild discomfort in one of his arms over the last three days. On the advice of his personal physician, His Holiness left Dharamsala early this afternoon and arrived in New Delhi. After undergoing medical tests at Apollo Hospital, His Holiness left the hospital early this evening after having been diagnosed to be suffering from a pinched nerve. Doctors have advised some medication. His Holiness is spending < 1234107786 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the night in New Delhi before returning to Dharamsala tomorrow to resume his normal schedule from Wednesday. - Office of His Holiness the Dalai Lama < 1234107805 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi comex < 1234107809 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do I feel the urge to laugh after reading so many 'His Holiness' < 1234107845 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1234108029 0 :alex89ru!n=kw@hbrn-5f717178.pool.einsundeins.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1234108157 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: So, how *do* we reverse entropy? < 1234108158 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: how do you " work on a syntactic closures srfi?) address. :p < 1234108227 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, work on a syntactic closures srfi, give it the address, and it'll tell you how. < 1234108229 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trade! < 1234108523 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: so what source is this from? < 1234108525 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: i think i use security by obscurity anyway?) ( allthough, lispme does let you look at all the colors and stuff are authored in latin. like fnord and rain. < 1234108541 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, never knew fnord and rain were latin < 1234108545 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: clearly, it won't tell you < 1234108545 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^agora < 1234108566 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style agora < 1234108566 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical) < 1234108566 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you mean < 1234108569 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That. < 1234108571 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen < 1234108573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1234108576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen < 1234108576 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: a zombie, has the lowest non-zero stain. ( f) the associate director of personnel may declare an interested proposal is < 1234108599 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly, fungot would be impressive even if it were written in Python < 1234108600 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: mark awards and penalties allowed by the assessor with respect to entities in the same month. < 1234108615 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION agrees with comex < 1234108676 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, megahal is better :P < 1234109038 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1234109040 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1234109053 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oo k o < 1234109847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I forget, was Vaughan Pratt right in the end? < 1234109859 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1234109867 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, his original claim was based on incorrect data, therefore false < 1234109881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one: http://cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2007-October/012156.html < 1234109884 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there followed a rather inconclusive argument after that, in which in the end we agreed that the original statement was ambiguosu < 1234109898 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that one's completely fallacious < 1234109909 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, the argument's correct but the premises are wrong, so it's inapplicable to the situation < 1234109918 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but, confirm this: < 1234109945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is possible, with a 2,3 machine and one sub-turing machine, to make the 2,3 compute something only a turing machine can" < 1234109994 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I can confirm that < 1234110002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's good enough for me < 1234110012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and thus, it follows that < 1234110022 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a reasonable definition of "compute", I think the one in my original proof was good enough but I created a more clear-cut demonstration later < 1234110034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it is possible, with a 2,3 machine and one sub-turing machine with the property that after one use, it self-destructs, to make the 2,3 provide an environment for generating the programs thereforth" < 1234110039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, you only need a sub-turing machine once < 1234110040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to bootstrap it < 1234110046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct? < 1234110047 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1234110052 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you have storage for an infinite amount of data < 1234110059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're in platonic land. < 1234110062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's good enough for me, then < 1234110069 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in platonic land, correct < 1234110071 0 :Hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1234110083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think it may be more accurate to say that {2,3 + sub turing machine} might be the thing that is TC, though < 1234110093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of like the chinese box thing, it's the whole system combined that's intelligen < 1234110093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1234110106 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think what came out of this is that turing-completeness was badly defined < 1234110111 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, BF needs an input program to be turing complete < 1234110116 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to write that program in BF < 1234110122 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1234110130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's actually BF, plus the process of translating a program into BF, that's TC < 1234110395 0 :Judofyr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1234110679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah at the IWC poll today < 1234110699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a paradox :) < 1234110742 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha ha paradoxes are so funny. < 1234110774 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's not a paradox. < 1234110796 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just psychology < 1234110939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no, because if more than half answers no, then the result will actually be more than half, and no will be incorrect < 1234110953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if more than half answer yes, then it will be incorrect as well < 1234110953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look up paradox. < 1234110955 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not. < 1234110961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only the minority can win < 1234110969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not impossible to win < 1234110976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just weighing up human psychology to find the answer < 1234111003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that depends on how you interpret it < 1234111025 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1234111029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really doesn't < 1234111031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a paradox < 1234111386 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. < 1234111391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION plans out dream language < 1234111406 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, my underload interpreter is mostly complete. < 1234111415 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a total FP language that has no compilation/runtime distinction, dependent types in the same language to infinite levels, < 1234111417 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi whoppix < 1234111422 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which lang are you writing it in? < 1234111423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an extensible syntax and implementation at the base level < 1234111424 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi there. < 1234111427 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl. < 1234111438 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't find any underload implementation on cpan, so I thought i'd write one. < 1234111439 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be interested to see it < 1234111463 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have a Perl version of my own lying around somewhere, but it probably isn't very robust < 1234111471 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll paste it for you, although its not complete yet. < 1234111499 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ill yet have to implement a way to throw in custom callbacks for outputting. < 1234111521 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 has a 300-character or so Underload interp in perl < 1234111536 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, I was golfing it for anagolf < 1234111540 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't a robust one, though < 1234111542 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codepad.org/hYbMoOl2 < 1234111548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I can't imagine it being much more verbose < 1234111549 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just one that was good enough to "legitimately" win < 1234111554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if was robust < 1234111560 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :50 lines, max, I'd say < 1234111566 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Chuck::Underload"? < 1234111570 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The specification is a bit unclear about how to handle ", so I haven't implemented quoting yet < 1234111573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoppix: wow, that's... thoroughly overengineered. < 1234111574 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, mine was terribly inefficient < 1234111578 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoppix: don't, nobody else does < 1234111581 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should just take that out of the spec < 1234111588 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, just a random namespace I throwed it into, eclipse is always a bitch about those things. < 1234111592 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you really don't need a separate paresr < 1234111594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*parser < 1234111601 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you do if you want it to run fast < 1234111609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1234111610 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like BF < 1234111614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you never skip past < 1234111620 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parsing a quote is one-pass < 1234111623 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'll put it under Language::Underload or so, when I upload it to cpan. < 1234111634 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the delay in an extra parsing step actually slows it down < 1234111635 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, shouldn't those dies be carps? < 1234111665 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: finding the other end of a heavily-nested (()) can be rather slow < 1234111673 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if there are a huge number of bracketed elements inside it < 1234111676 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parsing avoids that problem < 1234111680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but parsing before running is identical, unlike in BF < 1234111687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except the overhead of an extra pass delays program execution < 1234111702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION writes a perl interp himself to demonstrate < 1234111704 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yepp, i just did this in an hour or so, quick and dirty. also, I could propably improve performance greatly by removing the is_valid_token check < 1234111721 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would then lead to runtime exceptions, rather than compile-time-errors < 1234111741 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that it matters for most, anyway, since you have to re-compile code at runtime all the time) < 1234111746 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably speed it up further using a jump hash for the commands < 1234111752 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and not that performance matters at all anyway, its just for fun.) < 1234111767 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, a jump hash? what do you mean? < 1234111798 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ 'a' => \¶nthesize, '^' => \&execute < 1234111799 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1234111810 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then use the hash rather than an if/else if chain < 1234111815 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, well, yes, but whatever, I don't care about performance. < 1234111820 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure which is faster when you have so few commands, though < 1234111835 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :direct hash access would be significantly faster < 1234111840 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than method invocations < 1234111853 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my compiler worked completely differently < 1234111857 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/compiler/interp/ < 1234111862 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try to find a link to it < 1234111870 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that'd be interesting to look at. < 1234111893 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my first thought was, to create a EBNF for some sort of higher-level-language, which I could then compile down to underload < 1234111904 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but giving it a second thought, I think I'd rather compile it down to brainfuck < 1234111908 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Underload+interpreter/ais523/1202246125&pl < 1234111909 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :268 chars < 1234111921 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry about the lack of whitespace, I was going for a length record < 1234111925 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARGH MY EYES ARGH SHIT! < 1234111929 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1234111929 0 :Hiato!n=1@dsl-245-35-203.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1234111937 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run that through B::Deparse and it should look a lot nicer] < 1234111941 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, as you can see, I'm not :P < 1234111957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is that perl? < 1234111962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :golfed perl < 1234111965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1234111967 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoppix's link is more readable perl < 1234111976 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I did all sorts of cheating things like $/=$] < 1234111985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which breaks if Perl's version number happens to be in the input Underload source code < 1234111990 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a few chars shorter than undef $/ < 1234111998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEH < 1234112007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what does $/=$ do? < 1234112055 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really think though, I should do something with the quotes, it wouldn't be much work, since I drag in Text::Balanced anyway, and the specification says something about quoting. < 1234112066 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but does not really define where or how to use it) < 1234112073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's because nobody ever did < 1234112090 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :low Underlambda tiers won't have it < 1234112102 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Underlambda lowest tier is a "fixed" version of Underload) < 1234112115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about the perl winner, just 34 chars? < 1234112118 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/underlambda/unlambda/ ? < 1234112122 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it was cheating < 1234112125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1234112135 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it memorised the outputs that the test was looking for, and pasted one or the other back < 1234112141 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoppix: no, unlambda is quite different < 1234112150 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ok, I don't know underlambda. < 1234112167 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither does anyone else < 1234112170 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's my vaporware language < 1234112180 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, right < 1234112184 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which will one day not be vaporware, honest < 1234112205 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so underlambda can be compiled to underload, or something like that? < 1234112215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoppix: yes, and compiled from Unlambda < 1234112225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I want it to be compilable to and from anything without too much difficulty < 1234112234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's invented as an intermediary language to compile esolangs via < 1234112243 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that sounds interesting, did you made a spec or implementation? < 1234112246 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Underload+interpreter/ais523(genuine)/1202731346&sed is another of my Underload interps < 1234112253 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoppix: I change the spec frequently < 1234112253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1234112265 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have an implementation I keep more or less in synch with the spec < 1234112272 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you sure like regexp < 1234112273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll put it on esolang when it's ready, which is not yet < 1234112295 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoppix: regexes tend to be shorter than anything else for golfed esolang interps, I find < 1234112308 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use them so much in larger projects < 1234112329 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never really played perl golf. < 1234112347 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Underload+interpreter/yshl/1201872465&ps seems to be a genuine Underload interp in Postscript < 1234112372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Underload+interpreter/hinoe(mugoi)/1202159887&c is a crazily short one in C, but it doesn't always work < 1234112381 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell, it just uses memory without allocating it, or something < 1234112412 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't really done a lot of tests with mine yet, but it computes fibonacci sequences just fine. < 1234112499 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll put that module into my bot and make a !underload command. It understands about 20 languages now. < 1234112513 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many are esolangs? < 1234112520 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could do with an egobot replacement < 1234112534 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, depends on wether you count perl as esolang :D < 1234112561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl in general isn't an esolang; various restrictions and modifications of it (such as golfed Perl) are < 1234112578 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it supports perl, python, ruby, javascript, J, haskell, lua, that common kind of stuff, as well as perl6 (pixie/rakudo etc) farnsworth, and now underload < 1234112596 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :farnsworth doesn't work quite right yet < 1234112604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly non-esolangs, then < 1234112614 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you bring it in here so we could test? < 1234112618 0 :Judofyr!n=Judofyr@95.34.27.156.customer.cdi.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1234112621 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, better not, I'd just get it into a botloop with fungot < 1234112621 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: an entity, unless the term " possess" and " owner" are unambiguous synonyms for " off hold" are synonymous. a player you name must play or incur a debt of the < 1234112665 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, its not irc, but rather in a little chatnetwork that me and a friend made on our own, with a JSON-based protocol, TLS encryption, and a lot of other stuff. I'm writing a GTK+ client for it, currently, as well as maintaining the perl network libraries to access it. < 1234112684 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1234112699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoppix, make it ignore fungot? < 1234112700 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: highest point total for the ambassador is authorized to perform a certain action " by paradox if e is allowed to stand. as soon as possible after < 1234112702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh not irc < 1234112703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1234112704 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we made it just for fun, and its still beta, but it has a lot of interesting features, as for example writing latex into the chat. < 1234112719 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you can post formulas, sheet music, stuff like that < 1234112730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw since I know you use emacs a lot, have you ever used pymacs? < 1234112743 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I haven't < 1234112750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ok < 1234112754 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and its going to support PGP for private conversations. < 1234112792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoppix: I wrote my own underload that uses a jump table and has no pre-parsing step and is 100 lines shorter tan yours < 1234112795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1234112804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and checks the stack size too) < 1234112810 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: in Perl? < 1234112811 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now to test it < 1234112813 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes < 1234112817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an OO module, too < 1234112818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about reusing something like that IM encryption that offered deniability(sp?) too < 1234112823 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so what? < 1234112824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot the name of it < 1234112825 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can run multiple programs, check the stack, and replace the outputter < 1234112827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite interesting < 1234112838 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, bet it doesn't even pass the cpan kwalitee requirements :P < 1234112864 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about as much as yours is < 1234112876 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah yeah, I know, its just for fun anyways. < 1234112923 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, I could implement a max stack size option. < 1234112937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's easy in mine, too < 1234112939 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1234112993 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that that would be a usefull feature, but anway. < 1234113005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irritating, if I open something in firefox and it asks to confirm cookie, (and blink the process bar once), when I switch to it the "confirm cookie dialog" ends up behind the main firefox window < 1234113010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure non-modal dialogs are good bug... < 1234113012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but* < 1234113047 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows loves to put pop-up baloons behing the start bar where I can't see them grr < 1234113069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, not windows < 1234113069 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1234113071 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never seen that one < 1234113076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using Linux < 1234113087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it doesn't happen with konqueror, only with firefox < 1234113095 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simonrc is referring to a related but different situation < 1234113100 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we all know you don't use windows goddammit < 1234113101 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoppix: I have my bar on the LHS < 1234113113 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LHS? < 1234113114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, was just clarifying what happened to me < 1234113126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/S/C/ < 1234113141 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Large Hardon Collider? < 1234113163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that is what LHC is. No idea about LHS < 1234113179 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoppix: Left-Hand Side < 1234113240 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1234113315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually when I google define:LHC it seems like for once there is a TLA that is not used for more than one thing < 1234113346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh the irony, TLA is a TLA with more than one meaning....) < 1234113411 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recently discovered that the Java typesystem is terribly useful when one is trying to set up mocks using reflection. < 1234113417 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*isn't < 1234113432 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just end up telling it to bugger off < 1234113462 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and compilers disagree about what is allowed grr < 1234113760 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@HSI-KBW-085-216-041-121.hsi.kabelbw.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1234113904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my underload interp works < 1234113908 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only had one bug, and that was a missing char. < 1234113909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woot < 1234113921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also fast, and short, and robust, what point was I trying to prove again? XD < 1234113963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you can control how many instructions can run, with (...) counting as 1 instruction < 1234113968 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how large the stack can be < 1234113990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can control where the outputter goes, and run a program on a custom stack < 1234114010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ^ has a small bug < 1234114012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fixes < 1234114217 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1234114368 0 :upyr[ema`!n=emacs@79.174.35.21 JOIN :#esoteric < 1234114520 0 :whoppix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Off to the concerts, see you around < 1234114536 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you. < 1234114551 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your ears will be toast, though < 1234114586 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* oklofyug writes his first youtube comment < 1234114595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aspiring downwards? < 1234114627 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1234114657 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i wanted to join the stereotype < 1234114658 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1234114658 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1234114688 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ΓΌ < 1234114796 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's one sinister character mister. < 1234114800 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting, the virus scanner finally managed to start a scheduled scan < 1234114875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtGlQHAEwVo < 1234114878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is awesome < 1234114889 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client" < 1234114900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Age: 24" < 1234114904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAMENT REVERSES HIS AGE < 1234114908 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(audience gasps) < 1234114957 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want to reverse my age. i think oklopol agrees. < 1234114987 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the maybe being dead and all < 1234115046 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : but yes, I'm rather wondering what the heck ##sl4 has to do with sins < 1234115056 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a pun < 1234115057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please < 1234115058 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1234115070 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think kerlo must have made an AI without ensuring it was friendly < 1234115071 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x:D < 1234115079 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1234115083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVIL AI < 1234115135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fortunately it decided earth was too boring to care about, so went to conquer the andromeda galaxy instead < 1234115215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i hope the singularity doesn't make us all too intellectual for terrible puns. < 1234115243 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course not. but the new terrible puns will be incomprehensible to who we are now. < 1234115254 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1234115273 0 :upyr[emacs]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1234115309 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, fart jokes will be replaced with nebula jokes < 1234115327 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1234115354 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and jokes about the methane creatures on Titan < 1234115390 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who will protest that they are not actually smelly < 1234115519 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Unfortunately for the singularity, we still haven't asked AC how to reverse entropy. < 1234115541 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone asked that billions of years ago. it designed us as the answer. < 1234115557 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, we really shouldn't turn on LHC. < 1234115579 0 :upyr[ema`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1234115584 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, it's my internship >:| < 1234115589 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1234115594 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: heh, I was listening to that last night too < 1234115597 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without the LHC, I ain't getting ma master! < 1234115626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: to what? < 1234115628 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: wow cool :D < 1234115644 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note those comments were connected, btw < 1234115680 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slerry what shall ya do there? < 1234115680 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007jwp4 < 1234115691 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I've _got_ to destroy the world, otherwise I won't graduate" < 1234115748 0 :upyr[emacs]!n=emacs@79.174.35.21 JOIN :#esoteric < 1234115756 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i might want to reverse my age shortly though, you know, retry. < 1234115861 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you want to go back to diapers? < 1234115862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: your jew tube profile says you're 21 < 1234115879 0 :ktne!n=ktne@unaffiliated/ktne JOIN :#esoteric < 1234115879 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1234115884 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1234115893 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a youtube profile? < 1234115895 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait of course i do. < 1234115896 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION had the impression oklopol was 19 < 1234115900 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here who actually understands how chicken scheme implements call/cc? < 1234115908 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably registered while i was underage? < 1234115926 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ktne: ehird, possibly? < 1234115934 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well, is he around? < 1234115936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ktne: yes. < 1234115937 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and didn't know how youtube works regarding underage + viewing big-boy vids < 1234115939 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's trivial < 1234115939 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: hi < 1234115941 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's CPS < 1234115943 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i kept reading that < 1234115948 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all functions therefore get the continuation as the last argument < 1234115951 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just < 1234115953 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i still don't get how call/cc works < 1234115954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the implementaiton: < 1234115973 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: but what about local variables? < 1234115973 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :primitive-function(f, k) { call(f, arguments=[k], continuation=k) } < 1234115983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the cheney on the mta paper, it explains it < 1234115989 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've read that numerous times :) < 1234115997 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just don't get it :( < 1234115998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not hard enough :-) < 1234116003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the example compilation < 1234116006 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i understand what it does < 1234116014 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except i don't really understand how tail calls work < 1234116022 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that there is no stack explosion with this method? < 1234116032 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the stack frames are still pushed on each function call < 1234116033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you clear the stack periordically < 1234116037 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1234116040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with setjmp/longjmp < 1234116040 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it does explode < 1234116044 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the example compilation < 1234116052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ktne: no, tail recursion works forever < 1234116053 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i understand what happens when you fill up the stack < 1234116060 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you GC it < 1234116061 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the example compilation < 1234116068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1234116068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't < 1234116072 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1234116072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you GC, then clear the stack < 1234116076 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1234116079 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i understand that < 1234116081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the example compilation < 1234116088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it explains all this < 1234116091 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then the tailcall will trash memory < 1234116096 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea of a tail call is that instead of "call foo; return" you do "goto foo" < 1234116115 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: i understand that, but this method seems to use normal C functions < 1234116119 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doe < 1234116120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1234116121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read < 1234116123 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the < 1234116125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example < 1234116126 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the taillcall continues filling up the stack < 1234116127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compilation < 1234116136 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i've read that < 1234116149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it answers your questions... < 1234116155 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a detail, why it doesn't use the paging mechanism to detect overflow? < 1234116169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can if you want < 1234116175 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1234116196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION somehow wonders what Dick Cheney has to do with functional programming < 1234116205 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds evil < 1234116206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1234116215 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: but will the stack grow if you have a tailcall? that's what i'm asking < 1234116228 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or will the stack pointer stay constant? < 1234116230 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ktne: yes but then it'll be emptied perioridically < 1234116234 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AHA < 1234116239 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the whole thing < 1234116241 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so tail calls still work < 1234116247 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically it does trash your memory < 1234116250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1234116258 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the example compilation!!! < 1234116259 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@HSI-KBW-085-216-041-121.hsi.kabelbw.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1234116261 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it keeps allocating < 1234116265 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAH < 1234116265 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until it fills up < 1234116268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't < 1234116269 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it clears < 1234116271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1234116281 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides you can do tail call optimization with it anyway < 1234116292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it isn't even an issue if it was an issue which it wasn't < 1234116295 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is it possible? < 1234116305 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what < 1234116321 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to use in-place execution < 1234116332 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1234116337 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because this method naively implemented still walks around the stack < 1234116344 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just that it clears the stack periodically < 1234116360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so don't implement it naively < 1234116383 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this was my problem < 1234116389 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it doesn't look efficient at all < 1234116401 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is. < 1234116424 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks horrible if you don't implement tailcall optimisations < 1234116435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't < 1234116441 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the stack pointer keeps walking around < 1234116445 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look, you ask for suggestions on implementing a dynamic language functionally quickly < 1234116446 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in circles < 1234116450 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tell you about cheney on the mta, point you to chickn < 1234116452 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all you do is complain < 1234116457 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"doesn't look efficient to me" etc etc < 1234116458 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i do not complain < 1234116465 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that you told me that it's there < 1234116471 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it wasn't there < 1234116479 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1234116501 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, but what about call/cc < 1234116506 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that definitivelly isn't there < 1234116506 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i told you < 1234116509 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1234116511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean < 1234116524 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you save your current continuation < 1234116529 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i understand how you pass it < 1234116533 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how do you save it < 1234116537 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not tehre < 1234116538 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1234116540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1234116545 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not making any sense < 1234116578 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this paper makes no sense < 1234116585 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a quick innacurate description < 1234116587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense to m < 1234116587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1234116591 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read Chicken < 1234116602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's rather accurate, accurate enough for a computer at least < 1234116613 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with the paper is that is too terse < 1234116620 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so read chicken < 1234116621 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't really tell anything except that stack trick < 1234116624 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the example compilation < 1234116643 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i'm dumb :( < 1234116692 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just read chicken's source < 1234116694 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's simple < 1234116779 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm opening a project right now < 1234116838 0 :alex89ru!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1234117143 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, is chicken scheme state-of-the-art? < 1234117152 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it's just a fast enough implementation? < 1234117219 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read that chez scheme is fastest implementation available < 1234117387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chicken scheme is pretty fast < 1234117392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chez is the fastest but is $$$$$$$$ < 1234117409 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm asking this because i'm designing my own language < 1234117424 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm now sure whenever to add continuations or not, they are very powerful < 1234117440 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe some kind of restricted continuation? < 1234117440 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the naive way i can implement them it's so slow < 1234117443 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you've made closures awful for the sake of speed, I don't think continuations are worth it. < 1234117451 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, you're just building C here. < 1234117465 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1234117497 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i'm looking for something "possible if you want" instead of clean, and a keyword for those closure vars is not that bad i think < 1234117514 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially since it you gain code readability too < 1234117519 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is, i would just ignore closures altogether if forced to program in such a languag < 1234117519 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1234117520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and rubbish < 1234117610 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the name of the method specified in "cheney on the mta" paper? < 1234117623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cheney on the mta. < 1234117626 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1234117637 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ktne: also google: Cons should not cons its arguments < 1234117652 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, whatever with this method < 1234117657 0 :kwufo!n=regular@100.177.broadband10.iol.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1234117665 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can allocate all closure variables on stack if their size is known < 1234117676 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even if their size is variable < 1234117682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1234117687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what the example compilation does < 1234117688 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except if they are very large, in which case you have to allocate them in the heap < 1234117702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1234117704 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i guess i could get clean closures at no cost < 1234117708 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1234117733 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so i could remove that limitation < 1234117740 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1234117771 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you provide me a hint on where to start looking in chicken scheme? < 1234117783 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm looking for the call/cc implementation, the place where the current continuation is saved < 1234117791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ktne: here's how you implement call/cc < 1234117812 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(define (call/cc f #k) (call-with-specified-continuation (f #k) #k)) < 1234117822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where #k is the continuation argument passed to the end of all compiled functions < 1234117827 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1234117831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you can tell, that call/cc is O(1). < 1234117844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ktne: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation-passing_style < 1234117854 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a sec < 1234117861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you transform the input program to CPS < 1234117863 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do languages that do not use CPS < 1234117867 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to copy the stack? < 1234117870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep. < 1234117872 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or how do they save the continuation? < 1234117877 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see now < 1234117879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stack copying < 1234117882 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why you use CPS :-) < 1234117890 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1234117906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bonus of CPS: since you make tons and tons of closures for the continuation, you're forced to make your closures really fast < 1234117910 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a big win for closure use < 1234117959 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, thanks, i have to do some work for 15min now < 1234117961 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya later < 1234117989 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1234117991 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1234118014 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was confused about copying the stack < 1234118029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, this is all pretty tricky until you just "get" it < 1234118043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPS + cheney on the mta reduces the amount of places you have to optimize, though < 1234118053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cps lets you not optimize continuations, focusing instead on closures < 1234118067 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheney on the mta lets you get really fast calls, focusing your optimization instead on the gc < 1234118070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1234118081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in the end, most optimization boils down to closures and the gc < 1234118093 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and both have quite a bit of literature on optimizing them < 1234118215 0 :Somebody123!i=Somebody@gateway/tor/x-c2008fb597e26c4a JOIN :#esoteric < 1234118921 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@HSI-KBW-085-216-041-121.hsi.kabelbw.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1234119156 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1234119668 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@e-151.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1234119831 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ti'm back < 1234119877 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible to implement retriable exceptions? < 1234119884 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or retryable < 1234119890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1234119892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're continuations < 1234119906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the exception handler is a continuation, and if you pass a continuation at the point of the start of the try block to them, < 1234119909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can jump back in < 1234119915 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it nice how everything reduces to continuations :P < 1234119922 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1234119929 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why i would like to have them < 1234119934 0 :Somebody123!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1234120027 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is cheney on the mta compatible with optimized tailcalls? < 1234120048 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1234120055 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind < 1234120159 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easily < 1234120163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just do it like normal < 1234120298 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what happens if you have a try block inside a tailcall-optimized function? < 1234120299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1234120314 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would the exception be thrown? < 1234120342 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there are missing stack frames < 1234120347 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(optimized away) < 1234120355 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously inside a try block is not a tail position < 1234120385 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, let me think < 1234120414 0 :Corun!n=Corun@94-193-40-216.zone7.bethere.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1234120434 0 :Corun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1234120439 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's suppose we use an obtuse fibonacci implementation < 1234120471 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fib(2) throws an exception < 1234120494 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if that exception is caught then you return the precomputed fib(2) constant < 1234120500 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1234120513 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that indeed appears not to be a tailcall < 1234120546 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you must execute the code that pops the exception handler from the stack before "returning" < 1234120555 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, what about a loop? < 1234120562 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a loop that has a try block inside < 1234120567 0 :Corun!n=Corun@94-193-40-216.zone7.bethere.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1234120616 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for(i=i;i>> error < 1234121447 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er i was assuming C-like < 1234121496 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about if i is an uninitialised reference? < 1234121504 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i = i: set i to a fixed point of the function returning i given i. < 1234121526 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that doesn't initialize, and in which assignment can look at contents < 1234121538 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/look at/depend on/ < 1234121545 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1234121549 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant i=0 :) < 1234121559 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's easy to prove that the identity function has a fixed point because it's a rotation. :-P < 1234121560 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does C++ allow this? i don't know it < 1234121586 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats kerlo -----### < 1234121653 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: a rotation? < 1234121687 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, a rotation. < 1234121692 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1234121717 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: what is that? < 1234121761 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a very twisted concept < 1234121771 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For any given axis, the identity function is a rotation by 0 about that axis. < 1234121780 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1234121927 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible to optimize loops such the above one in scheme? < 1234121971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the goto the beginning isn't actually inside the try block... < 1234121987 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you use some escape command < 1234122004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case that should probably break out of the try block too < 1234122008 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" goto the beginning" i'm not sure i understand this < 1234122049 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*jump to < 1234122084 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i expect a lot of code to be written in this form in my language < 1234122090 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly for array processing < 1234122149 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ktne: if you implement loops as tail recursion, the try block there won't actually be _part_ of the recursion < 1234122161 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1234122174 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just something done before recursing < 1234122186 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure i understand it < 1234122199 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will have to translate that loop in CPS form first < 1234122665 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a good paper on transforming C-like languages in CPS form? < 1234122956 0 :alex89ru!n=kw@hbrn-5f717178.pool.einsundeins.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1234123427 0 :mib_mksvta!i=5b694181@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a5f9b2fa4ba4e41e JOIN :#esoteric < 1234123467 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi. < 1234123506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1234123536 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm actually writing botte :-O < 1234123557 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Current holdup: how to nicely load/unload plugins at runtime (they're written in haskell) < 1234123586 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there's a hackage library iirc < 1234123604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or two < 1234123625 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hsplugins < 1234123649 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hsplugins does too much < 1234123652 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's practically half of lambdabot < 1234123693 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it just calls ghc, doesn't it? < 1234123699 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could shell out to ghc, then use something like dlopen. < 1234123701 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just kind of ugly. < 1234123724 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also uses some internal module loading stuff i think < 1234123742 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, dlopen won't get the instance of Plugin which is important < 1234123761 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tricky :-( < 1234123781 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyhow, i haven't looked much into it < 1234123810 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/unix/System-Posix-DynamicLinker.html < 1234123811 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1234123832 0 :Hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1234123847 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What license is hs-plugins? < 1234123861 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./me looks < 1234123863 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks < 1234123870 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm ehird btw. < 1234123907 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This library is distributed under the terms of the LGPL: < 1234123908 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't read that, then. < 1234123951 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/ghc/index.html eek < 1234123978 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my god. < 1234123982 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, ehird is ehird. you are an EVIL IMPOSTER. < 1234124014 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :taking advantage of ehird's awayitude < 1234124025 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :StrictAnal <- O_O < 1234124097 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/ghc/GHC.html Promising < 1234124109 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1234124187 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: how long have you been reading Spamusement? < 1234124302 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idonno, I think I read through them first shortly before stevenf stopped, then somebody recently sent me a link to a comic on the forums and so I started reading those :P < 1234124347 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION frowns < 1234124364 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: what was the sin you told ##sl4 < 1234124371 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION mumbles something about sparse error correction codes < 1234124389 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta: believing the conclusion more strongly than the premises. < 1234124427 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example: "It is probably raining. If it is raining, Daniel is probably carrying an umbrella. Therefore, Daniel is almost certainly carrying an umbrella." < 1234124427 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh noes. < 1234124445 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was that the actual case? < 1234124488 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1234124493 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should have been. < 1234124594 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the case? < 1234124655 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If understanding AI is possible, Friendly AI is almost certainly possible. Understanding AI is probably possible. Therefore, Friendly AI is almost certainly possible. < 1234124694 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just don't fuck up puns, okay? < 1234124717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puck up the fun, i say < 1234124803 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure kerlo will be responsible for the singularity which is why I said that < 1234124814 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are? < 1234124828 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so kerlo, make sure stupid puns stay intact. also, omit oklopol from the singularity. he's hilarious enough as is. we need him post-singularity, you see, otherwise the world will collapse. of lack of oko. < 1234124829 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: I have been known to like to their forums, so maybe me < 1234124837 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: it follows by a similar argument to yours < 1234124838 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got that kerlo? < 1234124843 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now give fungot self-improvement routines < 1234124844 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta: that it is. if this still does not possess less than the maximum < 1234124850 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, of course. < 1234124850 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Who are you on the forums? < 1234124855 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not < 1234124859 0 :Slereah2!n=fff@ANantes-259-1-144-70.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1234124879 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: (And no, "somebody" != "I don't remember who", I do remember who it's just not somebody relevant to this audience) < 1234124893 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like this: I am possibly the smartest person in the world. It's likely that the smartest person in the world will be responsible for the Singularity. Therefore, I will almost certainly be responsible for the Singularity. < 1234124904 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is recommended that you _don't_ include oklopol among the goals of the AI. we don't want the solar system tiled with o's and k's. < 1234124913 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1234124919 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: No, more like only you're batshit insane enough to actually get the singularity going. < 1234124924 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would only happen if I decided to give the Solar System to oklopol for some reason. :-) < 1234124930 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The others don't write their AI by starting with fungot, you see. < 1234124931 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta: 3) entities explicitly specified by the clerk of the < 1234124933 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You will. < 1234124942 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yes, I do have a reputation for being batshit insane. < 1234124955 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I dunno, the whole universe replaced by okokokokoko over and over again would be abso-frickin-lutely hilarious. < 1234124981 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd have to be batshit insane to mumble something about low-density parity check codes. < 1234124999 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, I don't really buy the Singularitarian view of a point of infinite improvement. < 1234125001 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Planck time, and all that. < 1234125012 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the Singularitaritaritarian view? < 1234125020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta: but if an oko falls in the forest and there is noone there to see it... < 1234125027 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...of that? < 1234125047 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: The singularity is defined as the point where the recursive exponential self-improvement of the AI hits a point where it improves itself an infinite amount of times. < 1234125064 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I argue that there cannot be such a point, due to the planck time and other universal limits. < 1234125067 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a really weird definition. < 1234125070 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can go very, very fast, but not infinitely. < 1234125074 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone who subscribes to it is silly. < 1234125083 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: Like Eliezer Yudkowsky? < 1234125098 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't tell me EY subscribes to it. < 1234125099 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in one of his essays. Go find it or something. < 1234125106 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no u < 1234125113 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K, in a bit. < 1234125115 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here knows a human readable paper on CPS transformation? From a C-like language to CPS form. The papers i have found are quite dense. < 1234125115 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For now, BRB. < 1234125150 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather: "I'm sure you are correct, but I believe that in circumstances like this, it happens that the burden of proof falls on you, not me, for which I apologize deeply." < 1234125174 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Singularitarianism, like many other things, ranges from people who believe the obvious (Computers are going to get a hell of a lot more powerful), through those that believe the reasonable (There are several internet-level societal revolutions to come), to the ridiculous (suddenly we all ascend to a higher plane of existance and spread across the galaxy within the century) < 1234125186 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not conflate them < 1234125197 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a quintillion apologies, tiled onto the universe < 1234125211 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Higher plane of existence, sort of. Spreading across the galaxy, maybe not. :-P < 1234125247 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :humans are not going to seriously go to the stars < 1234125253 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something derived from them? maybe < 1234125266 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about mind uploading? < 1234125273 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that would be more beneficial < 1234125277 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not counting them under humans < 1234125279 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with that you could go to the stars < 1234125287 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well they are persons < 1234125292 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if they are not biological < 1234125299 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if physical humans ever get there it will be for the amusement of some other more powerful type of entity < 1234125306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is reasonable depends on unknown physical limits < 1234125314 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ktne: I mean, not space opera < 1234125421 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta: given that the strictness analyser is the most important part of the GHC optimiser, I agree that that is an unfortunate name < 1234125450 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: well i would certainly hope it is being anal about what it does < 1234125456 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1234125541 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think Freud had computer programs in mind < 1234125595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no he had his mother in mind, obviously < 1234125604 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1234125640 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigmund Freud is his grandson, y'know. < 1234125713 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say that pre-Singularity biological humans are deserving ipso facto. < 1234125729 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Raise your hand if you think that was a batshit insane thing to say.) < 1234125800 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deserving what? < 1234125810 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What they want. < 1234125827 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ipso facto"? < 1234125839 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what "ipso facto" means? < 1234125848 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not certain < 1234125852 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wiktionary > me. < 1234125985 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while half-humans must ipso facto half not be < 1234126022 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Half-humans are probably not pre-Singularity. < 1234126226 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers the riots of the 40s < 1234126250 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where 10000 furries want the right to GM their children < 1234126260 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by 40s I mean 2040s < 1234126263 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1234126298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the riots of the 2060, when the children reverse that < 1234126318 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1234126342 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the C21 will be fun < 1234126393 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although by 2070 it will be moot since people can reengineer themselves on the fly < 1234126475 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it will be fun if ones idea of fun is sufficiently twisted... :-) < 1234126606 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if you believe Accellerando, the Earth will have been disassembled by the end of the century. < 1234126666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by 2100 everyone will be so sick of it that they will live in virtual simulations of close to the year 2000. < 1234126692 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1234126693 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and coincidentally, this is recursive, and we're not the first iteration. < 1234126855 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I say by 2100, society can't even sustain current level of technological development... :-/ < 1234127045 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back. < 1234127087 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orion's Arm gives some intersting reasons why any non-related civilisations we eventually meet are likely to be at a technological level to our own. < 1234127098 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC Singularitarianism, like many other things, ranges from people who believe the obvious (Computers are going to get a hell of a lot more powerful), through those that believe the reasonable (There are several internet-level societal revolutions to come), to the ridiculous (suddenly we all ascend to a higher plane of existance and spread across the galaxy within the century) < 1234127106 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am referring to Eliezer Yudkowsky's beliefs, mainly. < 1234127112 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1234127147 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: Here's the source. < 1234127195 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The idea is they are so distant that we will meet them by contact of high-speed wormhole ends being carted around. Time dilation means that ultra-long-distance exploration will still not take much time at our end.) < 1234127198 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now take the Transcended version of S{n}, starting at 2. Half a time-unit later, we have 3. A third of a time-unit after that, 6. A sixth later - one whole unit after this function started - we have 64. A sixty-fourth later, 10^80. An unimaginably tiny fraction of a second later... Singularity. < 1234127199 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://yudkowsky.net/obsolete/singularity.html < 1234127212 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is marked as Obsolete, though. < 1234127273 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I think about those: "Computers are going to get a hell a lot more poweful": Doubtful. "There are several internet-level societal revolutions to come": There are multiple large societal revolutions coming. "suddenly we all ascend to a higher plane of existance and spread across the galaxy within the century": Utterly ridiculous. < 1234127351 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Computers are going to get a hell a lot more poweful": Doubtful?!?!?!?! < 1234127351 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What drugs are you on, I want them. < 1234127406 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, _that_ is ridiculous. < 1234127406 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't find that an unreasonable assumption < 1234127418 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ? < 1234127448 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we've hit the wall already, who says there's a simple way out. < 1234127503 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i don't believe that, but i don't think it's a ridiculous assumption. < 1234127569 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One ridiculous thing EY's said: both "we cannot comprehend higher-than-human intelligence, duhh" and "we can make a higher-than-human intelligence AI" < 1234127575 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a leeeeeetle contradictory. < 1234127611 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: Tell me how that works. < 1234127725 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta: i think that means we cannot comprehend the _consequences_, but we can still set up the _initial_ concept < 1234127749 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1234127752 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's the science fiction aspect, X is cool and higher-level, and X could exist < 1234127768 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, he's said that if we could understand things more intelligent than ourselves we'd be that intelligent. < 1234127770 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure. < 1234127832 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: care to justify that "doubtful"? < 1234127911 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta: Essentially running against technological limits in multiple ways, and not being able to deal with the consequences. < 1234127931 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: I don't disagree that there are limits, I just think that current computers are very far from them. < 1234127995 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta: Some other limitations make how far current computers are from theoretical limits pretty much irrelevant... < 1234128010 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: I'm waiting. < 1234128137 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And besides, increasingly advanced semiconductor fabs are becoming exponentially more expensive... < 1234128165 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enumerate these other limitations < 1234128184 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The most signaficant one: Energy. < 1234128199 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More precisely, technologically usable energy. < 1234128208 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm. < 1234128223 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But we can come up with more efficient energy, too, no? < 1234128247 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Energy use efficency improvements don't yield that much. < 1234128273 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is plenty of energy from the sun < 1234128293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the other day there was this energy chart on reddit < 1234128311 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, on order of 100PW, but how much of that is technologically usable? < 1234128337 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing sticking in the mind: energy from sun per DAY > all electricity used since tesla < 1234128350 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that I'm not so sure about the Singularity: I find the prospect of an X level intelligence being able to create an X+Y intelligence unlikely. kerlo will probably argue with me about this. :P < 1234128356 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Electricity is 'technologically usable energy'). < 1234128361 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do think computers are going to get a lot more powerful, though. < 1234128454 0 :GreaseMonkey!n=gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1234128481 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi GreaseMonkey. We're discussing the technological singularity. < 1234128510 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My opinion of tecnological singularity is that its utter pile of crock... < 1234128523 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'lo. < 1234128538 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, i think that we should have some common standards < 1234128543 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. wishbone :D < 1234128546 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: I think you're one of the two extremes in this channel, the other of which is kerlo, as far as I know. < 1234128612 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah, uh, what do you mean by "technological singularity"? < 1234128681 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The creation of a smarter-than-human AI which recursively self-improves. < 1234128685 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity < 1234128717 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. right. < 1234128779 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tl;dr so far: kerlo talks about it like it's obviously happening, I say some things, SimonRC is extremely ... moderate, Ilari says it's a bunch of bullshit < 1234128818 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And doing stuff that we have no idea of consequences of gives me creeps (fortunately I don't see this one happening)... < 1234128844 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Thank god you've never been around when someone's trying to make progress. < 1234128844 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while someone may be able to create a program which can fix its own bugs and the bugs of others, i don't think it will be able to be a heck of a lot more intelligent than us. < 1234128859 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would have to be based on a neural network for it to do that < 1234128866 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, no < 1234128868 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd just have to be AI. < 1234128869 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then again, you'll probably run out of RAM. < 1234128878 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1234128884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :always practice extreme moderation < 1234128892 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best AI is a neural network IMHO < 1234128893 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a recursive self-improver more intelligent than us could find RAM, surely < 1234128912 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: that's rather ridiculous, neural networks can't do all that much < 1234128928 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're as much thinking as markov chains are conversationing < 1234128938 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you wrap around it, then it can be good < 1234128945 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, NN > MC < 1234128953 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1234128955 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was an analogy < 1234128969 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: so you think AI will _never_ progress beyond neural networks? < 1234128971 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it all depends on the situation though < 1234128986 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm saying that neural networks is probably the path to go along < 1234129004 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea of consequences is pretty much different from understanding the consequences even poorly... < 1234129067 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say progress we had no idea of the consequences of has happened before. < 1234129080 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if it's going to happen, it's not going to be something we can choose... < 1234129110 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And worse yet, understanding the consequences but not paying attention to them... < 1234129137 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The singularity would pretty much be the definition of not understanding the consequences, so that doesn't really apply < 1234129156 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if you want a good degree of intelligence, you could use a neural network for triggering behaviours based on "emotions", and "emotions" based on input < 1234129162 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although if we're going to kill ourselves off, it'll probably happen in some simpler way. < 1234129166 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like gigantic nuclear war. < 1234129176 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: That's kind of simplistic. Whereby kind of I mean really < 1234129185 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just a component. < 1234129203 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hum de dum. < 1234129216 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neural nets are weird. < 1234129231 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: so what -is- your opinion on the singularity < 1234129281 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bayesian networks are theoretically nice. The problem with the neural networks we have is that they don't seem to be self-modifying in any way. < 1234129297 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta: my opinion is "yes". < 1234129305 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you asking what I think the consequences will be? < 1234129309 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: you could apply a feedback < 1234129311 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: More detailed opinion ploxkthx < 1234129321 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta: more detailed question plz? < 1234129321 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. What consequences, how will it come about, ... < 1234129348 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta Yeah. What consequences, how will it come about, ... < 1234129352 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is pretty big difference between just inventing some technology and actually using that technology. < 1234129354 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me go ahead and design a neural net real quick, 'kay? :-P < 1234129374 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo stop ignoring me :P < 1234129463 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I got disconnected for a moment. < 1234129492 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo mib_mksvta: more detailed question plz? 21:42 mib_mksvta mib_mksvta Yeah. What consequences, how will it come about, ... < 1234129493 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta: well, I can't say how it'll come about. Might emerge relatively spontaneously from a collection of relatively intelligent things. < 1234129532 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be created by a Manhattan Project, it might be created by an educated genius, it might be created by an ignorant genius. < 1234129537 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When do you think? < 1234129594 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: . < 1234129594 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Within 100 years is likely, it seems. < 1234129607 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe later. < 1234129615 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How wonderfully vague < 1234129619 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1234129627 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright then... Consequences? (Let's say 'immediately after' for a time frame). < 1234129671 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1234129712 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, Mr. My First Singularity hits enter on his keyboard after typing "ghc --make smarter_than_human_ai; ./smarter_than_human_ai". < 1234129720 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all my body parts are pretty. < 1234129739 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: eh? < 1234129748 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps it would discreetly take over the Internet. < 1234129754 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: he's replying to an ancient comment. < 1234129759 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: That's not very Friendly. < 1234129801 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm? < 1234129801 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta: it could be trying to assure there's no unfriendly ones out there :D < 1234129807 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1234129809 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps it would discreetly take over the Internet, set up an oracle service, earn money, and repay the people it took computer stuff from. < 1234129842 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say that discreetly taking over the internet is not a Friendly task regardless of how it pays back. < 1234129882 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's comparable to saying that cutting people open is evil regardless of how it pays back. < 1234129888 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: Do you disagree? < 1234129896 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do disagree. < 1234129902 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: If the singularity kills someone, then makes 10 babies, that isn't Friendly. < 1234129915 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it wanted to do really hostile act, perhaps it would attack control computers of all kinds of real-world important systems. Attack and successfully disable power grid and its game over. < 1234129916 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if the Singularity kills someone, then saves ten? < 1234129939 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: the idea is to make it not do that. < 1234129961 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: How do you define Friendly AI? I'd define it as an AI applying utilitarianism over humanity. < 1234129985 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So killing one person, then saving ten -- if they must be interlinked -- is probably Friendly. < 1234129997 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But doing harm to the internet, and merely paying back, is still an unfriendly act. < 1234130017 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Utilitarianism does not value equality at all. < 1234130032 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is true. It values the group as a whole. < 1234130047 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, people wouldn't like extreme inequality. < 1234130064 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION dislikes this area of conversation. < 1234130068 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: Yeah, but think of what would happen if Ayn Rand wrote the seed AI. < 1234130072 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be bad. :P < 1234130072 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to bed. < 1234130073 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Why? < 1234130077 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1234130080 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I would probably consider utilitarianism a valid approach. < 1234130097 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Ayn Rand an extreme deregulationist libertarian dude? < 1234130109 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She's female, and dead since the 50s. < 1234130115 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She founded objectivism. < 1234130118 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She was a sociopath, naturally. < 1234130122 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, extreme libertarian. < 1234130127 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Altruism is morally reprehensible" < 1234130213 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With deregulation stuff, all humans get laid off and starve. < 1234130222 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm. < 1234130234 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: I wonder how mainstream news organizations and politicians would react? < 1234130267 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be fun. < 1234130290 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A terrist is trying to take over the world with his computer! We must bomb him and his network before it is too late!" < 1234130304 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be quite terroristic. < 1234130334 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A human is trying to step on our hill! We must bite him repeatedly bite him before it is too late!" --an ant < 1234130343 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ bite him / / < 1234130357 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We must repeatedly before it is too late! < 1234130373 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The 'Singularity Institute' for 'Artificial Intelligence' today announced that they had 'created "smarter than human AI"'. SOME SCIENTISTS say that this is in fact a load of rubb*evaporates into the stars as a God*" < 1234130376 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was no g at the end. < 1234130398 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: true. < 1234130464 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, prediction: kerlo will cause the singularity by modifying fungot. oklopol will be the only human left behind, as he is ominipotent and oko and immune. < 1234130465 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta: an agoran decision has an honor of each week, < 1234130472 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All opinions to the contrary are wrong. < 1234130519 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, isn't fungot just a Markov chain bot? < 1234130520 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: their debts to each officer with a list of all shareholders.) the delegated player ceases to to < 1234130534 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: It can also execute Brainfuck and Underload. < 1234130534 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1234130537 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is written in Befunge-98,. < 1234130543 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is why it will be the seed AI. < 1234130548 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you, kerlo, are batshit insane. < 1234130562 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt Get to work < 1234130563 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta: ( c) a player who makes further play impossible by eir actions or lack thereof, or < 1234130570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is obviously logical < 1234130601 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1234130630 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't I just run a random subleq program instead? < 1234130660 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1234130669 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, suppose I were to batshit insanely start trying to make AI right now. < 1234130692 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: btw, since you think the singularity will happen, does that mean you think intelligence X can comprehend X+Y intelligence? (well, you must) < 1234130705 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO that's nonsensical < 1234130726 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To an extent, certainly. < 1234130750 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it depends on whether "intelligence" includes capacity for improvement. < 1234130755 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: so you believe there is a lower bound on X and the higher bound on Y? < 1234130768 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, a monkey can't understand a human but a human could understand the seed AI to write it? < 1234130769 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you see anything inherently wrong with creating an idiot that becomes a genius? < 1234130789 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm just not sure humans can understand smarter-than-human intelligence to create an AI that is < 1234130797 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is possible to get to X+Y intelligence without X intelligence understanding it. But that's likely too complicated to be practical with technological stuff... < 1234130811 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the advantage is: < 1234130823 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if humans can create smarter-than-human AI, we don't have to < 1234130825 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't need to create smarter-than-us intelligence, only more-flexible-than-us intelligence that can make itself smarter than us. < 1234130826 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just have to create human-intelligence AI < 1234130833 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which can then make the smarter-than-us intelligence for us. < 1234130855 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making something in equal intelligence to us' easiness >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Making something more intelligent than us's easiness < 1234130965 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I have something whose intelligence is equal to mine, improving it by anything at all will make it more intelligent than me. < 1234130982 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm. < 1234131022 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems that *the* problem with Friendly AI, and perhaps strong AI as well, is making it so that the AI will recognize any change to itself that would change its supergoal before making such a change. < 1234131109 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yess. < 1234131109 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Yes. < 1234131113 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we ought to find a class of changes to AI guaranteed not to change its supergoal. < 1234131116 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the AI box worked, it could just simulate it to see. Unfortunately... < 1234131162 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if it worked, it would have to simulate a modified version of itself, plus, presumably, bits of the universe. < 1234131196 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm. < 1234131239 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These things sure are complicated, huh? < 1234131275 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why I refuse to think about anything complicated. < 1234131282 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( I tried to teach a neural network addition on two bits < 1234131286 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to be batshit insane, you have to learn to ignore these things. < 1234131286 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It failed < 1234131317 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we ought to find a class of changes to AI guaranteed not to change its supergoal. And then, um... < 1234131337 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, we also have to find a way to prove that the supergoal of an AI is in fact a given thing. < 1234131444 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iiuc there is also the problem of finding the right supergoal < 1234131463 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Do things. Also, be nice please." < 1234131527 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CEV. < 1234131552 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1234131564 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can an AI really be said to have precisely one supergoal? < 1234131583 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if it has multiple goals < 1234131601 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it needs some comparation metric to use to decide which one will follow < 1234131608 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for the moment < 1234131615 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the supergoal is meant to be the overriding goal < 1234131619 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this means that there is just one weighted supergoal < 1234131632 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CEV: "Give us (humanity) what we would wish for if we knew more, thought faster, were more the people we wished we were, had grown up farther together; where the extrapolation converges rather than diverges, where our wishes cohere rather than interfere; extrapolated as we wish that extrapolated, interpreted as we wish that interpreted." < 1234131659 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not what I mean. < 1234131690 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the AI wants the diamond, and it believes that the only way to get the diamond is by getting box A, and so it decides to get box A, what is its supergoal? < 1234131700 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get the diamond? < 1234131700 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I need more iffage. < 1234131723 0 :olsner_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1234131725 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If all that and it also decided that it would not change its mind about its decision to get box A no matter what. < 1234131741 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Be stupid? < 1234131775 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. :-P < 1234131807 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is, I guess, its supergoal is to get the diamond, but it's incompetent at doing so. < 1234131819 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want the diamond and think the only way to get the diamond is via box A, and you realise you can't get the diamond, and you have no other reasons for getting box A, then getting box A is an act of sheer stupidity. < 1234131869 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose an AI came to believe that from then on, its senses would attempt to deceive it. < 1234131878 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best course of action would be to ignore its senses completely. < 1234131893 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree. < 1234131906 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best course of action would be to believe what its senses say to it is reversed. < 1234131954 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that if its senses told it that the sky is not green, it would come to believe that the sky is green? < 1234131969 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Saying nothing but falsehoods is not the best way to deceive a person. < 1234131978 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True dat. < 1234131985 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: how about it'd never believe that because its senses aren't sentient < 1234131993 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean unless they are which they shouldn't be < 1234132027 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My senses are sentient. < 1234132049 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o rly < 1234132054 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disbelieve that your ears, eyes, mouth are sentient. < 1234132062 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disbelieve that your skin is sentient. < 1234132074 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, s/senses/sensations/g < 1234132118 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's write an AI. :P < 1234132135 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If one really wants to deceive a person, expose it to same falsehood from all directions and often (much more often than they hear the truth)... < 1234132167 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but global falsehood is not deceiving: just flip it. < 1234132205 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd write an AI, but unfortunately, this would require sheer gibbering stupidity, blank incomprehension of the Singularity, and total uncaring recklessness. < 1234132224 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but how does one tell which way is correct? < 1234132225 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of which you can obtain! < 1234132225 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to type "I can't". < 1234132260 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you just hate it when you go into a trance and quote Eliezer Yudkowsky when trying to press the shift button? < 1234132266 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: if you know it's going to lie to you in that way, ... < 1234132272 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: I think you have an obsession problem. < 1234132294 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, um, didn't EY advocate writing a seed AI? < 1234132301 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He did. < 1234132313 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... < 1234132329 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He was talking about writing AI with one of our subgoals (e.g. solve the Riemann hypothesis) as its supergoal. < 1234132331 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1234132331 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The other way to get a Riemann Hypothesis Catastrophe is to make solving the Riemann Hypothesis a direct supergoal of the AI - perhaps the only supergoal of the AI. This would require sheer gibbering stupidity, blank incomprehension of the Singularity, and total uncaring recklessness. < 1234132333 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mib_mksvta: I don't think you can know that (unless you find out)... < 1234132336 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1234132347 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: It was part of kerlo's question. < 1234132428 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... I think I'll stop bothering the people who don't care/dislike the singularity in here. kerlo, others: if you want to continue, I've set up a treehouse in #zot. < 1234132476 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkies. < 1234132507 0 :mib_mksvta!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client" < 1234132643 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1234133134 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1234133220 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird is promoting artificial artificial artificial artificial artificial intelligence intelligence intelligence intelligence. < 1234133235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1234133483 0 :alex89ru!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Verlassend" < 1234134128 0 :abc!n=abc@91.105.65.129 JOIN :#esoteric < 1234134199 0 :abc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1234134391 0 :jix_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"..." < 1234135287 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1234135307 0 :oklopol!n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1234135445 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1234135449 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"bye" < 1234135585 0 :ktne!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1234136009 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#zot's quiet. Someone should join. < 1234136194 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hint hint. < 1234136288 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf is zot < 1234136343 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least its one (pretty rare) metasyntactic variable... < 1234136354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Zotalicious, for one. < 1234136380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's just a random name for discussion of a variety of topics including AI, cake, #zot, and the topics applicable in #zot. < 1234136382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly the first one. < 1234136736 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW THAT I AM 0% ZOT < 1234136746 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::< < 1234136972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: the pianidio is awesome. < 1234137413 0 :radioactivity!n=umezeeb@host138.190-224-188.telecom.net.ar JOIN :#esoteric < 1234137494 0 :radioactivity!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1234137507 0 :Corun!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1234137539 0 :macondo!n=macondo@unaffiliated/macondo JOIN :#esoteric < 1234137561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1234137566 0 :macondo!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1234137572 0 :radioactivity!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;)