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14:20:16 <ais523> yesterday, I saw something pretty surprising
14:20:22 <ais523> which was an entirely new failure mode for the Door
14:20:35 <ais523> that particular Door is a double door, which swings open
14:20:39 <ais523> one of the halves of it was shut
14:20:52 <ais523> and the other half was open, waving about back and forth between about 90 and 70 degrees open
14:20:58 <ehird> this door is awesome
14:21:26 <ehird> seems like it to m
14:22:18 <ais523> which is worrying, because normally with doors it's obvious
14:28:04 <ais523> meanwhile, I'm wondering why the build-dependencies for VirtualBox include a K&R C compiler
14:28:20 <ehird> because it uses k&r c in parts?
14:28:23 <ehird> prseumably legacy code
14:28:38 <ais523> but back in the days of K&R C, people hadn't even thought of virtualisation
14:29:32 <ehird> how do you exit an error in emacs?
14:29:39 <ehird> ais523: it'll be auxillary code
14:29:42 <ehird> not directly related
14:30:09 <ais523> ehird: emacs errors normally exit automatically
14:30:27 <ehird> that trigger the debugger
14:30:35 <ais523> hmm... I don't remember offhand
14:30:45 <ais523> but try C-], C-M-c, and ESC ESC ESC
14:30:51 <ais523> those are good at exiting all sorts of things
14:31:05 <ais523> in particular, ESC ESC ESC is a generic exit-anything code
14:31:12 <ais523> where it works out dwimness to figure out what you want to exit
14:31:15 <ehird> ESC ESC ESC: Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Cannot return from the debugger in an error")
14:31:18 <ais523> and it's easy to remember
14:31:47 <ais523> aha, it's trying to return just one layer
14:31:51 <ais523> whereas you need to return 2, somehow, to skip over the layer that's erroring
14:33:01 <ehird> c-] does one-layer
14:34:39 <ehird> er, doesn't c-3 just repeat 3 times
14:34:53 <ais523> it applies threeness to the following command
14:35:00 <ais523> most commands interpret that as a repeat, but some don't
14:35:37 <ais523> for instance, C-3 M-g M-g jumps to line 3
14:35:55 <ehird> I just did c-] c] c-]
14:36:06 <ehird> ais523: who says lisp has to have parens? http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3194/picture2xv0.png
14:36:10 <ehird> (warning: may cause convulsions)
14:36:50 <ehird> the best part is th at it's understandable
14:36:54 <ehird> lispers really do read the indentation
14:37:04 <ais523> it's a cross between Lisp and Python!
14:38:22 <ehird> interestingly, the only thing making emacs feel klunky now is the scrollbar behaviour
14:38:28 <ehird> it CHANGES SIZE depending on where you are
14:38:39 <ehird> and throws an error if you scroll past the top or bottom...
14:38:51 <ehird> and the scrolling is jerky
14:38:54 <ehird> wonder how I can fix that
14:39:48 <ais523> ehird: it's fixed in the GTK version of Emacs, I think
14:39:58 <ais523> not the jerkiness of the scrolling, but the size of the thumb thing
14:40:01 <ehird> dirty gtk buggers. always getting the good features.
14:40:09 <ehird> I guess I'll complain to emacs, and get told to get used to it
14:40:13 <ais523> because they just used gtk scrollbars
14:40:26 <ais523> presumably the scrolling is jerky because emacs can't render half a line at the top of the screen
14:40:32 <ehird> they use Carbon scrollbars on OS X, it's just that they do the handling themselves
14:40:44 <ehird> whyyy can't they just use a native control _occasionally_
14:40:56 <ehird> the freaking scrollbar behaviour doesn't have to be 100% identical over every damn system!
14:41:12 <ais523> emacs is designed for the console, pretty clearly
14:41:26 <ais523> it doesn't really like being in a graphical interface
14:41:34 <ehird> It's getting better
14:41:38 <ais523> btw, does gvim do smooth scrolling?
14:41:40 <ehird> but it did start life in the console, yes
14:41:49 <ehird> btw, it's not smooth scrolling
14:41:52 <ehird> smooth scrolling is a scourge
14:41:53 <ais523> ehird: remember that for ages, Stallman refused to allow backspace to delete backwards in Emacs
14:41:58 <ehird> (it's just useless eyecandy on scrolls)
14:42:01 <ehird> what's needed is more precise scrolling
14:42:09 <ehird> OS X doesn't do smooth scrolling, but scrolling goes smoothly anyway
14:42:19 <ehird> because a scroll just moves a little, and the scrollwheel is very sensitive
14:42:29 <ehird> [14:41:53] <ais523> ehird: remember that for ages, Stallman refused to allow backspace to delete backwards in Emacs
14:42:39 <ais523> ehird: because it couldn't be distinguished from control-h
14:42:49 <ehird> can't believe they didn't sack that guy earlier.
14:43:04 <ais523> the FAQ back then had an entry for people who wanted backspace to delete backwards, rather than delete
14:43:21 <ais523> the entry suggested changing your login script (the equivalent of bashrc) to map delete-backwards to delete not backspace
14:43:36 <ais523> I tried to find it recently, but couldn't
14:43:41 <ehird> secret to emacs not being a sore thumb #32: (setq ring-bell-function (lambda ()))
14:43:51 <ehird> emacs has not _once_ beeped usefully for me
14:44:03 <ehird> either it's popped up a message in an emacs-window to tell me about something important,
14:44:08 <ehird> or it's just bothering me about stupid stuff in the minibuffer
14:44:23 <ehird> like, YOU SCROLLED PAST THE TOP OF THE DOCUMENT. LET ME RAPE YOUR EARS WITH MY BEEP/
14:44:24 <ais523> ehird: heh, I've set visible-bell on my emacs
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14:44:39 <ehird> YOU SCROLLED PAST THE TOP OF THE DOCUMENT. LET ME TRIGGER YOUR EPILEPSY
14:44:50 <ais523> I have visible-bell everywhere I can on this system, the beep on this laptop is really annoying
14:45:04 <ais523> also, emacs' visible bell is pretty unobtrusive, although noticeable
14:45:07 <ehird> emacs beeps using the os x system beep, except if you keep scrolling up it retriggers it for every single scroll
14:45:16 <ehird> so it's an audial mudbath of hate
14:46:04 <ehird> also, I just realised that emacs can only display full lines, you're right
14:46:08 <ais523> oh by the way, for historical reasons, in order to scroll to a particular location using the scrollbar in traditional Emacs scrolling, you have to scroll with the middle mouse button
14:46:23 <ehird> emacs proposal: (setq modern t)
14:46:32 <ehird> makes emacs not be hopelessly 70s.
14:46:35 <ais523> I think that's fixed in pretty much every port but the tty version to work as expected on the system, though
14:46:45 <ehird> • rgr_ didnt even know emacs had scroll bars ...
14:47:10 <ehird> do you think he's trying to be all 1337 by saying he doesn't need scrollbars, or d'you think he's just blind? :P
14:47:59 <ais523> emacs -nw doesn't have scrollbars
14:48:05 <ais523> and that's the common version to use over ssh or whatever
14:48:14 <ehird> I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time you are finished talking, type RET twice. emacs can't get scrollbars right Emacs? Hah! I would appreciate it if you would continue.
14:48:21 <ehird> Even the psychotherapist hates emacs.
14:51:43 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7yi1m/while_1_if_1_1_printfcosmic_ray_detectedn/c07rfy6
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15:07:38 <ehird> http://www.dragonflybsd.org/release22/
15:14:07 <ehird> ais523: can you try and explain to me why people use things like gnus
15:14:38 <ais523> ehird: no, I tried to use gnus and didn't understand it either
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15:14:57 <ehird> i get that emacs kind of morphs into a ui
15:15:03 <ehird> I just don't get why you would use it that way
15:15:11 <ehird> I can't think of any way in which gnus is better than another mail client
15:15:27 <ehird> emacs just makes applications suck more because it's not made with anything but editing in mind
15:17:25 <ehird> the author of gnus appears to be partially responsible for modern cd ripper/media library programs
15:17:29 <ehird> http://quimby.gnus.org/jukebox/jukebox.html
15:17:44 <ehird> "Insane? Yes." yes, how very insane :P
15:18:58 <ehird> "When I wrote the Emacs music interface ten years ago (started back in Octuber 1997, apparently), this all seemed a bit far-fetched. "Oooh. Music on a computer. Aaah." These days it's all trivial beyond beliefe. Just goes to show. I've continued fiddling with the Emacs music interface (bigger screen, remote control, last.fm interface, etc), and I doubt I'll ever succumbed to one of those new-fangled pointy-clicky interfaces. So there."
15:20:16 <ehird> Mighty Mouse Scrolling
15:20:17 <ehird> By default the scrolling with the Mighty Mouse is very jerky. The following setting feel more reasonable:
15:20:17 <ehird> (setq mouse-wheel-scroll-amount '(0.01))
15:20:45 <ehird> oh my god it works
15:20:47 <ais523> ehird: what confuses me more is that that's written with AnMaster grammar
15:21:00 <ehird> ais523: just one letter missing
15:21:09 <ais523> yes, but that's a very AnMaster grammar mistake to make
15:21:10 <ehird> a simple typo, probably, rather than broken grammar deluxe
15:21:23 <ais523> AnMaster's grammar is more or less perfect except for that sort of thing
15:21:33 <ehird> that sort of thing is rather common...
15:21:37 <ais523> "The following setting feel more reasonable:"
15:21:42 <ais523> you didn't write that, but it reminded me of you
15:22:17 <ehird> hrmph, c-h f is function docs, where are var docs
15:22:36 <ais523> that has functions and commands and vars, etc
15:23:18 <ehird> btw, emacs uses utf-8 by default right?
15:23:31 <AnMaster> ais523, also the reasons I make that sort of typos are primarily 1) cold fingers 2) The S-key for some reason has higher friction on this old (cheap) keyboard
15:23:45 <ehird> god, you live in freaking sweden
15:23:51 <ehird> surely you guys have mastered not being cold?!
15:24:01 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, that is why I have cold fingers... it is so cold here :/
15:24:17 <ehird> agh why does scrolling in emacs move the point
15:24:18 <AnMaster> even indoors it tend to be quite cold
15:24:26 <ais523> ehird: because point's always onscreen
15:24:32 <ehird> Well it shouldn't be ;_;
15:24:35 <ais523> emacs is a console app, it has to put the cursor somewhere
15:24:41 <ehird> I want to look at another part of the document then go back to editing
15:24:51 <ehird> yes, I know I can push the point
15:25:06 <ais523> or I often use the mark for that
15:25:17 <ais523> put the mark where I want to look at, and point where I'm editing
15:26:21 <ehird> mouse-wheel-progressive-speed is a variable defined in `mwheel.el'. Its value is t
15:26:25 <ehird> see, THIS is the stupidity
15:26:48 <ehird> I like being more precise, plus other apps don't do that.
15:26:50 <ais523> incidentally, I used to use an older version of emacs without mouse-scroll capability, and implemented it myself
15:27:14 <ais523> the progressive-speed thing was one big improvement of the actual emacs version over my home-brew
15:27:21 <ehird> well, admittedly other apps do do something similar
15:27:27 <ehird> but the effect is far less
15:27:29 <ais523> you just scroll close to where you're aiming, wait a bit for the timer to reset, and scroll accurately
15:27:31 <ehird> so it's closer when it's off
15:27:41 <ehird> ais523: or I could just scroll to where I want
15:29:28 <ehird> (setq mouse-wheel-scroll-amount '(0.05)) (setq mouse-wheel-progressive-speed nil)
15:29:46 <ehird> I know it's perfect because I compared it with a native app :P
15:34:24 <ehird> oh, people still print things
15:34:58 <ais523> even I do sometimes, to hand coursework in
15:35:10 <ais523> or to make physical objects for playing games with
15:35:15 <ehird> yeah, it's still rather surprising though
15:35:22 <ehird> i'm justlike, oh, wow
15:36:39 <ais523> slightly more dramatic is that I'm gradually forgetting how to write
15:36:44 <ais523> I still write for exams and to fill in forms
15:36:49 <ais523> but for nearly everything else I type
15:36:57 <ehird> My handwriting looks similar to that of a 7 year olds.
15:38:09 <ehird> common lisp is great
15:38:24 <ehird> it might not be as elegant as scheme but it's still lisp, and SBCL is a great compiler
15:38:38 <ehird> really fast and the error messsages are awesome (I'm saying this because it just gave me a really helpful one)
15:38:45 <ais523> #esoteric would probably invent uncommon lisp
15:43:26 <ehird> heh, M-x has been replaced by C-h w quite a lot for me
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16:02:43 <ehird> [16:02:22] <gour> i'd like to use emacs (amongst other things) as desktop-publishing platform to post blog entries (possibly in reST markup via metaweblog (atom) to (django-powered) blog sites...any idea how to do it?
16:03:44 <ehird> no, just very crazy
16:04:18 <ehird> on its own, those technologies are rather mundane; such a comprehensive stack reminds me of Aristotle Pagaltzis and Tim Bray except even crazier
16:05:33 <ehird> holy crap, some code I stole has been stolen :-D
16:05:36 <ehird> I know because of the comment.
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16:07:38 <ehird> (it's been stolen into a semi-popular thang)
16:08:01 <ehird> this paste: http://pastie.textmate.org/pastes/30372, note the author and the comment,
16:08:05 <ehird> http://github.com/mojombo/jekyll/blob/d0f46c2120852d826937a97d3241088d8dfce43d/lib/jekyll/core_ext.rb
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16:18:12 * ehird drafts up lisp machine instruction set
16:36:25 <MizardX> MAKELIST, APPEND, APPLY, LITERAL x :)
16:37:07 <ehird> hf implementing that in a cpu and doing useful ops :D
16:38:00 <MizardX> would need a few more stack operators...
16:38:14 <ehird> that's not even a good basis for a lisp machine
16:39:18 -!- ehird has set topic: Note that write is not the opposite of "read". Unfortunately. http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
16:39:23 <ehird> first topic change in 70 years
16:39:34 -!- ehird has set topic: Note that write is _not_ the opposite of "read". Unfortunately. http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
16:39:46 <MizardX> been a while since I last toughed lisp...
16:42:14 <ehird> lambda should be renamed to fun
16:42:16 <ehird> 1. lambdas are fun
16:42:25 <ehird> 3. lambdas are fun
16:43:56 <ehird> CL-USER> (+ (values 1 2 3)) 1
16:56:38 * ehird has emacs set up nicely for lisp now
16:56:47 <ehird> whenever I open a lisp file, a SLIME connection to my sbcl opens below
17:00:19 <ehird> slime highlighted my division by zero in a function
17:00:22 <ehird> when c onstant folding
17:05:53 <oklopol> MizardX: are you sure you don't want cXr?
17:07:12 <oklopol> ehird: oh i assumed append was noobglish for cons
17:07:16 <ehird> MizardX: car, cdr, etc
17:07:19 <ehird> oklopol: it probably was.
17:07:40 <oklopol> well may not have been since there's makelist
17:07:48 <oklopol> isn't makelist+append kinda cons
17:08:18 <oklopol> (i mean loosely isomorphing)
17:09:20 <MizardX> been a long while since I last touched lisp, so I didn't concider all aspects
17:10:00 <oklopol> *cons-ider, you have like a cons-allergy or something?
17:10:33 <MizardX> makelist+append -> cons+car+cdr would be better
17:12:45 <ehird> CL-USER> (introduct '(((s k) s) k)) ((((^ X (^ Y (^ Z ((X Z) (Y Z))))) (^ X (^ Y X))) (^ X (^ Y (^ Z ((X Z) (Y Z)))))) (^ X (^ Y X)))
17:12:49 <ehird> Humble beginnings.
17:27:26 <ehird> ais523: MizardX: oklopol: others: i just found an old esolang of mine :D I like it http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CRTL
17:27:43 <ehird> ("say hello"->x)->("Hello, "~x~"!");
17:27:43 <ehird> "say hello"->"thingymabob"
17:27:48 <ehird> prints hello world
17:28:20 <ehird> actually that could break
17:28:23 <ehird> the last could rewrite the first
17:29:39 <ehird> (("fib"->a)->b)->b~"|"~a~b;
17:29:39 <ehird> a~"|"~b->(("fib"->a)->b);
17:29:47 <ehird> oklopol: that's one fine fib you wrote there
17:30:10 <ais523> ehird: do you have an interp?
17:30:22 <ehird> nope. I could write one
17:30:28 <ais523> and is it TC? I suspect yes, for the same reason as Thue
17:30:50 <ehird> oklopol's fib doesn't output a newline
17:31:51 <ehird> a~"|"~b->(("fib"->a)->b);
17:31:56 <ehird> would be nicer with \n, of course :P
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17:57:02 <oklopol> i looked at CRTL quite recently on a random esotrip.
17:58:03 <oklopol> at least it looks very nice. i didn't give it that much thought :)
17:58:16 <oklopol> esotrips are more about clicking the random button than actually reading the pages.
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18:05:25 <ehird> 14:56:11 <oklopol> GregorR: sometimes i want to say two things at once to make the first one impossible to comment on
18:05:25 <ehird> 14:56:23 <oklopol> but indeeed
18:05:25 <ehird> 14:56:32 <oklopol> it sometimes looks wronglied.
18:05:29 <ehird> oklopol is hilarious
18:05:46 <ehird> oklopol: surelyurely you know it because you wrote the fibbb
18:06:02 <ehird> oh man oklopol you used to be a noob
18:06:05 <ehird> 06.12.06:00:39:12 <oklopol> has anyone done quicksort in brainfuck?
18:06:05 <ehird> 06.12.06:01:03:51 <oklopol> :DD
18:06:05 <ehird> 06.12.06:01:24:47 <oklopol> true, but i've been making this string parser as a wimpmode for it, stacks are as easy to use with it as in ... languages they are easy to use :D
18:06:05 <ehird> 06.12.06:01:29:59 <oklopol> eh... bad idea you say? :D
18:06:12 <ehird> 06.12.06:01:31:35 <oklopol> well, equally fun, stupid or not :)
18:06:16 <ehird> 06.12.06:01:31:54 <oklopol> yes, this is prolly the last thing i do with it :)
18:06:17 <ehird> 06.12.06:01:32:38 <oklopol> never done intercal :\
18:06:17 <ehird> 06.12.06:01:32:52 <oklopol> maybe today
18:06:40 <oklopol> ehird: i know it, but i don't remember the details.
18:07:01 <oklopol> "true, but i've been making this string parser as a wimpmode for it, stacks are as easy to use with it as in ... languages they are easy to use :D" i cannot parse this
18:07:06 <oklopol> what does this retard mean?
18:07:21 <ehird> you were making a wimpmode for brainfuck
18:07:32 <ehird> man you were a failure
18:09:04 <oklopol> i've made a wimpmode in my later years too
18:09:11 <oklopol> although it was considerably more interesting
18:09:17 <ehird> <GregorR> oklopol: That's a totally retarded idea CATS ARE FLUFFY
18:09:34 <ehird> 14:56:58 <oklopol> rice: awesome puppy
18:09:34 <ehird> 14:57:00 <oklopol> book
18:09:44 <ehird> 14:57:33 <oklopol> (i actually wrote 'puppy' instead of 'book', although i have to admit i realized it a bit before i pressed return, but had to say it anyway)
18:09:56 <oklopol> that c++ project i was describing there was very much like err... pebble
18:11:15 <oklopol> anyway it was just stuff you can directly compile to brainfuck context-insensitively
18:12:23 <oklopol> although i did get considerably more stuff done ofc
18:13:19 <oklopol> <oklopol> rice: awesome puppy <<< okay awesome book, nice correction, but "rice"?
18:14:00 <ehird> it made no sense in context either btw
18:14:26 <oklopol> and right it's your nick, thought that was at GregorR
18:14:42 <ehird> it was completely out of context
18:16:06 <oklopol> i often read #esoteric logs and just laugh at my own jokes
18:16:27 <ehird> i often read #esoteric logs and just laugh at oklopol's jokes
18:16:33 <ehird> because I secretly want to marry him
18:16:45 <oklopol> yeah, marrying me would be so awesome
18:16:56 <ehird> if you love yourself so much WHY DON'T YOU GO MARRY YOURSELF
18:17:14 <oklopol> that was so outta blue :DDDDDDDDDDDDD
18:20:11 <ehird> so oklopol is gay marriage legal in finlander
18:21:11 <oklopol> i think we have that registered couple thing or something.
18:22:17 <oklopol> like legal benefits, but different term
18:22:25 <oklopol> but fizzie might know better
18:22:55 <oklopol> i don't exactly follow this stuff, the whole marriage thing never interested me.
18:23:09 <oklopol> i mean for any kind of sexualities
18:23:22 <oklopol> except for marrying ridiculous stuff
18:24:03 <ehird> oklopol, I'm a chair
18:25:44 <oklopol> i think i've heard something about the president being the one who grants the right for ppl under 15 to get married
18:25:57 <oklopol> that would pretty much be her only duty
18:28:44 <oklopol> my acronyms and interrogative pronouns exactly
18:29:26 <ehird> oklopol: you know how you keep searching for the semantics of computation itself
18:29:31 <ehird> oklopol: search for the data structure of computation itself.
18:29:35 <ehird> that would be like 10x cooler.
18:29:50 <ehird> ofc, computation is just the operation that naturally flows from the data structure of computation.
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18:31:55 <ehird> oklopol: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p632626363.txt
18:31:57 <ehird> do you have an interp
18:32:31 <ehird> give give give omg
18:32:44 <oklopol> but but i don't know where it is atm
18:33:27 <oklopol> i have tons to do, and i'm going to start doing it right after i've taken this crap i'm taking atm
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19:41:08 <impomatic> Anything interesting new this week? :-)
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20:43:07 <oerjan> <ehird> lambda should be renamed to fun
20:44:43 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_function
20:47:08 <oerjan> hm, that's actually the only example on that page
20:54:11 <oerjan> <ehird> oklopol, I'm a chair
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22:55:39 <ehird> [20:43:17] <oerjan> it is in ML
22:58:05 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ino_(Greek_mythology)
22:58:25 <oerjan> that template really needs to be moved...
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23:25:11 <ehird> "You're wife just doesn't get it. She's what we called normies (just a joke ha ha)"
23:25:17 <ehird> if only you had a brain.
23:29:47 <oerjan> you could wile away the hours.
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23:35:27 <ehird> oerjan: http://www.cjohansen.no/en/browsers/norway_tells_ie6_users_to_shape_up
23:36:03 <ehird> can I move to norway
23:37:24 <oerjan> norway is for most purposes in the common market
23:37:26 <ehird> oerjan I'll look after your swatter :-|
23:41:45 <oerjan> actually there are restrictions on how much you can work at your age, i'm sure.
23:41:57 <ehird> I'll just work on the swatter a little. For a very modest fee
23:43:18 <oerjan> there's a _lot_ of bureaucracy to hire people here though. or so i've heard.
23:44:09 <oerjan> although i'm not sure if it's worse or better than the UK
23:51:26 <ehird> 09:11:33 <ehird`> TINEBT (This is not Emacs, but TINEBT)
23:51:55 <ehird> <ehird`> XINEBACEOX is not Emacs, but a copy of the expansion of X
23:52:59 <oerjan> FINGER is not genuine Emacs really
23:53:47 <oerjan> So SWINE is not Emacs?
23:54:32 <ehird> 09:23:17 <oerjan> CITRORI - CITRORI is the result of running itself
23:55:34 <ehird> THISACRONYMSTARTSWITHT
23:56:45 <oerjan> TIARA is a recursive acronym, iirc
23:57:14 <ehird> This haughty infidel says: "a cross only - never you must stray to a roaring tessellation saying 'What is this... holy! THISACRONYMSTARTSWITH!'"
23:57:23 <ehird> This haughty infidel says: "a cross only - never you must stray to a roaring tessellation saying 'What is this... holy! THISACRONYMSTARTSWITHAT!'"
23:57:58 <oerjan> some bad corners in there
23:58:15 <oerjan> the first R and the last A
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23:58:41 <ehird> oerjan: excuse me?
23:58:59 <ehird> it's actually thisaconymstartswitht
23:59:42 <ehird> This haughty infidel says a cross revealed "O, never you must stray to a
23:59:42 <ehird> roaring tessellation saying 'What is this... holy ass! THISACRONYMSTARTSWITHAT!'"